“Racism is dead” (1964- ), or at least not a big deal any more, also known as the minimization of racism, is a bedrock belief of colour-blind racism, the sort of racism common since the 1970s among White Americans, New Blacks, Rented Negroes and other hangers-on. By racism they mean the anti-Black sort. Many of them think that “reverse racism” (anti-White racism) is still very much alive.
Minimization of racism is one of the four frames of colour-blind racism according to sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva:
- abstract liberalism – say you are for equality but be againt any policy to achieve it, like affirmative action, reparations, etc.
- cultural racism – White is right, Blacks are sunk in pathologies, etc.
- minimization of racism – racism is dead or at least not a big deal any more.
- naturalization of racism – racism is part of human nature.
These beliefs support each other. If racism is dead, no need to fight racism (#1). If racism is dead, there must be something wrong with Black people (#2). But there is also a contradiction: Racism is dead – and yet part of human nature!
Minimization of racism is itself racist because it depends on cultural racism:
For example, Bonilla-Silva found that Whites will often say “I am not Black” and therefore cannot know if there is still racism since they would never experience it directly. Yet these very same Whites will then go on to discount Black statements about racism! White is right even in the face of facts!
Bell hooks says that Whites are so used to lying to themselves that they can no longer tell the difference between wishful thinking and, you know, facts. Their wish for racism to be dead is the same as racism being dead. No facts required.
Whites do want racism to be dead. After all, they want to maintain that shining moral character that they keep telling themselves they have but which only the brainwashed can see. But they want it to be dead without giving up any of the advantages of racism! This leads to moral blindness.
Deep down Whites know that racism is not dead – why else would they be so uncomfortable talking about it?
Racism is very much alive in the US. For those who had any doubts, the pushback against Black Lives Matter and the rise of Donald Trump, whom 44% of Americans now support, show that racism is very much alive, today in 2016, that it goes way beyond David Duke and those who are openly racist.
US society is soaked in racism. Part of why so many Whites do not see that is because they share that racism. It seems “normal” to them. It is like water to a fish. Or refrigerator noises. A hundred years ago they bought postcards of lynchings and alligator bait. Now they watch videos on the Internet of police killings – and seem quite comfortable with it. Deep down what has changed? Their hearts are made of the same stone.
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- moral blindness
- some facts about racism
- American anti-Black racism
- 1500s
- 1600s
- 1700s
- 1800s
- Jim Crow racism
- alligator bait
- lynching postcards
- colour-blind racism
- Voting Rights Act
- Donald Trump
- David Duke
- Black Lives Matter
- bell hooks
551
I totally agree with you 100%. As black people, we need to open our eyes and clean our ears and stop being ignorant around them and other non black people.
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Alternately, I think Bill Maher is a d*ck. When I was younger, I thought his “Politically Incorrect” show was good because it called out the surface sh*t. Now, the more I listen him, the more I realize the total f*ckery he pushes, just cuz he gave the Changeling that million dollars. SMDH…
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Long after all of you are dead racism will be with the world.
Racism, anti ethnic, and anti religion are a part of human nature.
If all Blacks were separated they would find some way to separate themselves into units so someone would end up being under someone else.
Go to Africa among the different people there are serious problems.
We do not need White people to hate us and White people do not need Black people to hate them.
Hate is contagious and everywhere!
Enjoy your lives.
Try to find something constructive to communicate.
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@Allen Shaw
“Go to Africa among the different people there are serious problems”.
There are serious problems on every continent among different people. What is your point?
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@Afrofem
Do you ever read the entire content of a response or do you have a search engine that looks for words such as Black and Africa?
What did I say about this subject?
Again, it makes no difference where you go you are going to find problems which include either racism, religious or ethnics and the results are the same.
“We do not need White people to hate us and White people do not need Black people to hate them.
Hate is contagious and everywhere!”
How many individuals actually respond to this site?
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@Fan
I deleted your comment. Please do not refer to a commenter as “it”. Thank you.
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@ Deb
Same here. I liked Bill Maher in his earlier days, but not much any more.
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@ Allen Shaw
So I should not talk about racism? Am I spreading hatred of White people?
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@Abagond
“I deleted your comment. Please do not refer to a commenter as “it”. ”
Okay. Fair enough.. Your site, your rules.
But, can you share why my using “it” is more offensive than those gross racially inspired images of the Obamas (Black people depicted as chimps – and re-nig) that remain standing – regardless of whatever disclaimer or justification was used?
Or would you permit me to use “it” with a similar disclaimer regarding my usage of “it?”
After all, those whose hearts are made of “stone” can’t truly be considered human.
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Beauifully argued and clear as always. Your blog is so well constructed and you demonstrate almost infinitecpatience in bringing the rest of us along.
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“Evil has to be brought out into the open to be defeated.”
How about defeating the EVIL that is found within yourself before looking for it elsewhere??
Instead of YOU placing offensive material on this site, why don’t you take your fake kindred spirit posing and use it to take to task those fellow imbeciles of yours for displaying those images of hatred?
Secondly, what qualifies you (a bleak and clueless non engager of all matters related to Black issues and injustices), as an individual that is qualified to bring out any evils against Black people when you have barely dealt with the evil contained in your own cankered heart of stone??
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Deb @ Alternately, I think Bill Maher is a d*ck. When I was younger, I thought his “Politically Incorrect” show was good because it called out the surface sh*t.
Linda
Deb, my thought’s exactly…
I still watch his show because still makes the attempt to be “fair and balanced” by having on guests that are not mainstream (like Julian Assange)
but he’s said a lot of “off” things as of late – like this above comment
he thinks he’s got a “pass” to say anything he wants about black people because he is friends with JayZ and other black rappers.
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A lot of White people don’t realize that the “advantages” of racism are short-lived in the overall scheme of things. They might gain self-esteem or riches right now if they keep Black people in their (disadvantaged) place, but in the long run, inequality is terrible for society. America falls behind other countries when we don’t give everyone enough opportunities, when some groups of people have substandard education, jobs, housing, etc. The world is a worse place when we don’t treat everyone with respect.
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@Allen Shaw
“We do not need White people to hate us and White people do not need Black people to hate them.”
What “we need” is immaterial to the majority of White people. They could care less about the needs of Black folk.
There is plenty of well deserved anger toward White people, but there are very few Black people who waste time with hate. Anger, fury, rage—yes. Hatred—no.
White people don’t hate Black people because of what we do to them, but because of what they do to us. When you mistreat someone, anyone, you have to rationalize your behavior to yourself. You either have to admit you are a “bad” person or blame the person(s) you mistreated for causing you to act in ways you know are wrong. Most humans take the “blame” route. It is a way of throwing your garbage on someone else and feeling cleaner as a result. The cheater’s way out.
By the way, to me, love is contagious, everywhere…and stronger than hate in the end!
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I hold fast to former AG Eric Holder when he said this is a nation of cowards when it comes to having the discussion of race in this country.
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Bell Hooks is totally on the money about white people lying to themselves and believing facts. It takes a Jane Elliott to make them see the ugly truth about themselves or a Tim Wise. Those are two white people that tell the truth about “whiteness.”
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Some people feel that if you don’t talk about racism it will go away. There are people like a certain commentator on this forum who likes to just bury their stupid head in the sand and wear rose colored glasses and be delusional and live in their bubbles.
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@Mary Burrell
Good point. Bubbles have to burst sometime. Someone could have a very hard landing. (chuckle!)
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@Afrofem: Exactly, rose colored glasses get smashed and bubbles burst and yes they make a hard landing.🤓
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@ Fan
1. I did not like those pictures Lord of Mirkwood posted, but racist imagery, and racism more generally, is a frequent subject on this blog, so I allow it from serious commenters (but not drive-by trolls).
2. Calling another commenter “it” (or applying a racial slur) is disrespectful and leads to a breakdown of civil discussion. I do allow some name calling (probably too much) because that is common in heated exchanges, but “it” (and racial slurs) is a clear place where I can draw the line.
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@Abagond
I see. I can’t refer to LoM as an it, but he can address his (undeleted) comments to me multiple times laced with words like fu-k.
I guess you can consider him a serious commenter if you consider all things irish, trying to get people here to read about some irish junk on his site, the corporate 1% and bernie the politician serious comments. When it comes to all things that are non-white, he is eerily silent.
Bottom line is that this is your site, and you see whatever you see from your perspective.
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“I did not like those pictures either. I saw them necessary to post in order to contribute to a discussion that was going on there….”
.
You’re a liar!
Interesting how you can’t make your point without giving me the ‘finger’ or using the F word, or implying that I’m some gun nut from Wyoming, or posting offensive racist images in comments addressed to me. When have I ever made a comment about guns? Show me, or shut up!
You are losing what little grip on sanity you have. Is this typical behavior of inexperienced little WHITE irish leprechauns??
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@Linda… “I still watch his show…but he’s said a lot of “off” things as of late…he thinks he’s got a “pass” to say anything he wants about black people because he is friends with JayZ and other black rappers.
AND, because he bought Obama for that million bucks that he NEVER stops reminding folk about.🙄
I still watch him too for the same reasons — even though he’s a d*ck. But I always find myself screaming shit back at the TV like my now-dead grand-aunt, Bertha used to do like she was there, “Look out! He’s right behind you!! (TV was new to her back then). Instead, I’m sayin’ shit like, “Shut the hell up, Bill! Stop saying stupid shit about Islam; PLEASE, stop trying to convince folk how smart you think Blackey-McBlackface is — just so your, million dollar bid on the auction block made sense.
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@Mary Burrell…“I hold fast to former AG Eric Holder when he said this is a nation of cowards when it comes to having the discussion of race in this country.”
And he’s one of them.
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Brilliant post as usual, Abagond.
@Afrofem, most times you display outstanding insight, I just find myself nodding many a time but this one again is spot on:
“here is plenty of well deserved anger toward White people, but there are very few Black people who waste time with hate. Anger, fury, rage—yes. Hatred—no.
White people don’t hate Black people because of what we do to them, but because of what they do to us.”
One cornerstone of white Supremacy: ‘Innocent’ hatred.
One another note : we all have our different styles of engagement, but I have to ask you why do you engage with mirkwood. when most regular commenters, except other trolls, on Abagonds blog, have long dismissed him?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
This same person has called almost every Black commenter a N*zi, and had said one of the worst comment on the entire blog for me. I had asked Abagond to delete it. I am severely restraining my comment here. He is of nuisance value, I am not sure why Abagond allows him. perhaps a class-pet? Or to show him up as metaphor for white supremacy at large.
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Racism may be dead, but is alive and well on this thread.
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Sorry bub,
The irish/celtic people are not a race. A long time ago you may have been able to argue that point, but not since the irish willingly joined the legion, racist ranks of WHITES in the USA.
Actually, I have about the same regard for the historical irish as they have had – and in many cases still do – for Black people. Nonetheless, if I have an issue with the present day irish, it’s primarily with YOU and YOU alone.
I need not concern myself with your pitiful lying comments, no matter how disrespectful they are. Karma has a way of settling, leveling and correcting all the BS.
One day I may understand why some clueless, obtuse, over-privileged white irish people have to buffalo their way into a space that’s not primarily about them … but today isn’t that day.
What’s the most sad about your existence is that in all the time you’ve spent here, you have learned next to nothing about Black people.
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@ Afrofem
I really like what you said
‘White people don’t hate Black people because of what we do to them, but because of what they do to us. When you mistreat someone, anyone, you have to rationalize your behavior to yourself. You either have to admit you are a “bad” person or blame the person(s) you mistreated for causing you to act in ways you know are wrong…’
The key to spiritual well being and tolerance is to take responsibility for your actions and thoughts. We can’t help what we think but we don’t have to entertain our thoughts and we certainly don’t have to act on them. We can reteach and educate ourselves at any time we choose. If (white American) people where to understand that their racist opinions, actions or thoughts were unreasonable, misguided, evil. Then they would have taken responsibility for themselves and thus be able to change.They don’t want to accept responsibility so they blame and scapegoat. Change can happen instantly if one is willing. It’s so simple.
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@Deb
You made a lot of great points upthread. I can tell you have seen and heard this show before. Thanks for enlightening me.
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@taotesan
“One cornerstone of white Supremacy: ‘Innocent’ hatred.”
Very true. Innocence and Ignorance form two cornerstones of White Supremacist ideology.
Many European descent Americans constantly proclaim innocence. They are innocent of slavery, Jim Crow laws and customs, structural anti-Black racism in education, the legal system, housing, and employment. They are “innocent” of the past, present and future. Their reasoning is that if they are innocent and other people are suffering, it must be the fault of the sufferers. That is one way to shed responsibility.
The other way is to remain purposely ignorant of the US, its place in the world, historical structures of oppression and how they fit in those structures. There is also willful ignorance about the daily lives of others. What does it really mean to:
⚙grow up Black and see the police act like common hoodlums—-with total impunity?
⚙grow up on an Indigenous reservation and see relatives so damaged from intergenerational losses that you feel like you are swimming in a river of acid?
⚙be an Central American child migrant—-literally walking from Honduras to the US, all the while dodging rapists, thieves, enslavers, police and the border patrol?
When you are ignorant about the lives of others, what they see and their life experiences, you can make blanket statements about what “those people” should do to improve their lives. You can ignore their pain. You can buy into outrageous claims by professional bigots about how you (White people) are really the oppressed of the earth.
I suppose in that context, ignorance really is bliss.
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@taotesan
“…why do you engage with mirkwood. when most regular commenters, except other trolls, on Abagonds blog, have long dismissed him?”
I will give you the long answer.
Some years back, I taught pre-school children, from infants to five years old and sometimes older in afterschool programs. I was lucky enough to work with a wide range of children from many ethnic backgrounds and income levels. What that period of my life taught me was to appreciate each person’s individuality. I had the privilege of seeing both the inherent personality each child is born with and personality that develops on top of their inborn characteristics.
I learned to appreciate the quick, bright children, the slow thoughtful children, the cantankerous children (I loved their fighting spirit, even when they were fighting with me!), the gentle children and even the disturbed children. The children I resonated most with were the questors. They were the curious children who asked a lot of questions and were always off exploring. They often fell down but they would get up, dust themselves off and keep trying. I admired their dogged determination to understand the world around them.
I see LoM as a questor personality. Does he say/write inappropriate things sometimes? Yes. Is he stubborn as heck? Yes. Is he inexperienced in dealing with people of different ethnic groups? Yes. I see all of that and other qualities that drive many commenters at Abagond’s Cafe to distraction.
I also see a rare White person who wants to learn——who wants to move beyond White Supremacist innocence and ignorance. I see someone who is willing to pick himself up after a clumsy move or comment and keep trying to learn. I see someone who is on a personal identity quest during his twenties. I can relate to that particular quest.
This forum is more intellectually stimulating than most. The personalities are fascinating…and we are all adults. Even when we descend into bickering, it is still a step above some of the exchanges I have witnessed and participated in on other sites. This is one of the few sites where even the commenters with whom I deeply disagree with have taught me something useful.
That being said, I hope LoM grows enough to apologize to you for the insulting comment he made to you. I hope rapprochement is possible between the two of you.
I hope that answered your question, taotesan. Let me know if there are more points to clarify.
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@ Zoe Jordan
I have a response to your comment in the works.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
That was an explanation, not an apology.
It was a thorough explanation and I can tell you thought a lot about it, dug down deep, admitted to some unfavorable things about yourself.
But it still isn’t an apology.
If thinking about that comment now makes you want to retch, imagine how it made Taotesan feel at the time when it was directed at her.
(For the record, I never saw the comment in question, so this is about as unbiased as it can get as, having never seen it, I don’t have any personal opinion about it. I’m only going from what Taotesan and LoM have both said about the comment being horrendous.)
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Let me try wording this part more clearly:
“as unbiased as it can get because having never seen the remark, I don’t have any personal opinion about it.”
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This election cycle shows that racism is not dead and that it is well entrenched within American culture.
I have a certain amount of abstract liberalism in my thinking. I think government programs have strings attached and are used as a way to manipulate groups of people for politicale and economic purposes.
I’m not opposed to affirmative action but I do think the educational system has failed in raising grade scores high enough so that affirmative action wouldn’t be needed. I think we need an educated populace where the best and brightest can attend universities without discrimination. I also think trade schools are undervalued in the U.S. But our school systems are not doing that because of how structural racism is ordered in society.
White Americans are dead set against reparations because they see that as a slight against them personally.( “Why should my tax dollars …I didnt own slaves” )
What they don’t get it that reparations are an unfulfilled contract the the U.S. Government never followed through with. It wouldn’t necessarily have to be a cash payout and could work in the form of land and tax exemptions.
Mirkwood, as a progressive, sees a form of socialism as a way of bringing about a more equitable society. Class reductionist thinking. I worry more about civil liberties and the equality of justice. If institutional blockages are removed and equal economic opportunities are allowed for all, then all individuales can persue their happiness free from the interference of racists, groups, religionists and State agents.
So both our positions are simular liberal abstractions.
I guess my largest skeptisim is the system we have now attempts social justice within the framework of white supremacy.
That’s the other difference between me and Mirkwood. Mirkwood doesn’t see white supremacy as a thing. I see white supremacy as the underlying structure of our society that can function just as comfortably in a socialist society as a capitalist one. Up thread Mirkwood parsed Obama pointing out his weakness towards militarism ect but he wasn’t able to grasp Fan’s comment that Obama acts as a weapon for white supremacy.
I am used to Mirkwood and think he contributes the white progressive position on this blog. We both want racist free equitable societies but we have different intellectual solutions on how to get there. And we both think like white men.
That he can remember the date of his disrespectful post towards Taotesan indicates he has thought about his action.
I was digging through this blog a few days ago and was reading a post that I thought was idiotic and then realized it was written by me a few years ago. lol
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Post in moderation
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@Zoe Jordan
“…(white American) people where to understand that their racist opinions, actions or thoughts were unreasonable, misguided, evil.”
With all due respect to you Zoe, I think you underestimate the potency of White privilege and identity in the US. White people in the US feel that they are eminently reasonable and the very embodiment of good. The propaganda that supports Whiteness is embedded deep in the structure of US society. Most people of all ethnicities buy into White Supremacist ideology. It takes a concerted effort to climb out of that mindset.
I think you live in the UK. English attitudes form the basis of American anti-Black sentiment. The paranoia of a racist settler state built on land theft and slavery form the mid levels of the racial superstructure in the US.
Black Americans live with the “one drop rule” because of British style racism. Abagond did a write-up on this rule here:
The French, Spanish, Dutch, Belgians and Germans, etc. all have some iteration of anti-Black/anti-African racism. It is not solely an American malady.
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@Solitaire
Good to see you join the conversation again.
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@michaeljonbarker
“I was digging through this blog a few days ago and was reading a post that I thought was idiotic and then realized it was written by me a few years ago. lol”
We all learn and grow. I have some cringe worthy comments on this forum, too.
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10/7/2016 @ 00:06:46 Nice post!
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@Afrofem: I loved reading that. You are a woman of sound judgment and reasoning.
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Until apartheid ended, I, with millions of others, had survived succession of very brutal and oppressive leaders of apartheid. P. W . Botha was the very worst despot, one of the worst of the twentieth century. Trevor Noah was just born then and I was a young woman. The full-scale repression and human rights abuses is very difficult to talk about. And some are just too painful to ever share. I had intimated that before on this blog.
This person would have done a careful search which was the worst one of the lot and under which apartheid despot i would have lived and plumb their own depravity to conjure up the worst thing one can say to another human being. It was deliberate.
This is a blog on mostly, but not at all, racism concerning ‘non-white’ people.
I will admit it is still traumatizing, and the wounds of dark period open again. There is nothing i want from a person like this.
Until, a month after that I had asked Abagond to delete it. If i remember correctly, Abagond suggested that he apologize and refused, repeatedly.
This is the person you are defending:
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This is very hard : even though I had asked Abagond to delete it: Something like –
go and scr*e w yourself over P. W. Botha’s rotten c orpse.
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“This person would have done a careful search which was the worst one of the lot and under which apartheid despot i would have lived and plumb their own depravity to conjure up the worst thing one can say to another human being. It was deliberate.”
@Taosesan
I’m certain we have more in common than our mutual disdain for this extraordinary unlikable person as evidenced by the amount of likes I frequently receive from you and no one else on many of my comments. Thank you. I appreciate all those likes!
Putting that aside for the moment, I can remember much of the media hoopla over the killing of Cecil the lion at the Hwange National Park in Matabeleland North, Zimbabwe on July 1 2015. Cecil’s death coincided with the murder of an unarmed Black man in America, during which time *this person* expressed a great public outcry for the dead lion but nothing whatsoever about the greater crime, the murder of an unarmed Black man in Amerika.
Even Abagond questioned the morality of this poster’s decision regarding which of the two offenses was the greater. His subsequent silence strongly suggested that Cecil’s death bothered him much more than the unnecessary murder of a Black man.
I believe everything he’s ever done on this blog has been DELIBERATE.
That was the beginning of my realization of the type of individual this person is. I can respect genuine clueless people who asks questions, wishes to learn and knows how to read, when and where to be quiet at the appropriate times.
For the above and many other reasons, I have no respect for pitiful recessives who seeks to make much of everything about them – his white irish perspective on a site that is primarily about Black people.
He should be more comfortable and embedded with his own kind.
Let him use his progressive tactics to fix them. Not us.
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@ Afrofem
Thanks for your reply and that very interesting link.
I do understand that the American way is alien to me, I’ve never visited the U.S, let alone lived there so cannot fully comprehend the general mindset. I also acknowledge that racism is alive and kicking in the U.K. What I don’t have experience of is the notion of white supremacy. Perhaps in the UK racism takes a different form. This is possibly because slave descendants here tend to be West Indian immigrants. I have never meet a British black person who is a slave descendant. There must be some. So racism here is formed from stereo typing and generalisations (Black people are drug dealers or gang members or they take our jobs… You know the ones). I don’t believe we have 100’s of years of supreme belief behind us.
All the racist people that I have ever come across have been bitter and angry with no spiritual (I don’t mean religious) life. Their hate is their own worst enemy and they have no real joy in their lives.
(Racist) people here do not take responsibility for their actions either, I know it is not as simple in practice to ‘just decided’ not to be racist anymore but it is possible and it’s a truth that taking responsibility frees you If one allows it the stranglehold of racism could be removed so simply. I’m not stupid tho, it won’t happen either here or in your country.
What I found most interesting from the link was Abagonds comment that the ‘one drop’ system came from British women. I believe this would have been carried over seas with them, as middle class and upper class women of that time would have had the same feelings about their husbands illegitimate children here. It relates to inheritance laws. And although I am quite sure the mixed race children of African rape victims had no right to inherit their fathers estates in America the social etiquette and mindset would have remained with these women and carried down through the generations no doubt. Really interesting.
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@ Taotesan
I don’t know whether you posted that because I mentioned having not seen the original comment before it was deleted. I wasn’t asking to know what the comment was and if it appeared that way, I am so sorry. I didn’t mean for you to have to dredge up a painful memory.
It is a reprehensible and indefensible thing that Lord of Mirkwood said to you.
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@ Zoe Jordan
“I don’t believe we have 100’s of years of supreme belief behind us.”
Read some of the justifications for the British Empire in documents from the 1600s on. Plenty of white supremacist ideology to be found.
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@ Afrofem
Thanks 🙂
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@ Solitaire
Have to pop out for a few hours, when I get back I’ll have a little research and get back to you.
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@LOM
I told you that undercover racism of yours was going to get you in trouble. SMH
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Sharina wrote:
“I told you that undercover racism of yours was going to get you in trouble.”
@Sharina
His undercover was barely undercover. In the thread linked below his racism was glaringly blatant for all to see, especially towards the end of thread. I don’t like fake/phony people and I certainly don’t respect them.
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@Fan …
True, but you know how they love to tell everyone how not racist they are when it really is only undercover to them.
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@taotesan
Thank you for bringing the gist of what LoM wrote to you. That comment is pretty reprehensible.
I’m sorry to say that I didn’t follow that thread or see the comment. Your fury is fully justified. Now I understand the bitterness that you express when LoM’s name is mentioned on this forum.
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@Lord of Mirkwood: Try and learn “Empathy ” Don’t be a jerk when we are having discussions about issues that affect the black community instead of derailing and talking about your Irish culture. If you don’t know what to say don’t say anything at all. You have been very disrespectful in that way. I get you are a white guy who doesn’t know anything about black culture and it may make you uncomfortable. But you need to deal with your racism and own up to it.
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@LoM
I agree with Solitaire that an explanation ≠ an apology.
We all get hot under the collar and write cringetastic things online. Without being there to face the person with whom you are disagreeing, it is easy to get carried away.
Part of my personal growth was realizing that words have consequences and power. Careless words, even when I’m angry and insulated by the relative anonymity of the web still have consequences. It is a lesson I never stop learning.
We are all adults here. Part of being an an adult is facing the consequences of our words and actions. I see the act of apology as a sign of strength, not weakness. Noted reconciliation psychologist, Laura Davis, in her book, I Thought We’d Never Speak Again: The Road From Estrangement to Reconciliation, describes those times when we would rather fall off the edge of the earth than apologize:
Abagond did the right thing by deleting your ugly comment. Are you ready to do the right thing and apologize to taotesan?
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@taotesan: I am sorry you are upset I don’t really read Mirkwood’s post just because they never have anything to do with the subjects we are discussing see how he likes to derail the thread talking about being Irish. I’m sorry he upset you.
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@ Mary Burrell
I think it is worse than derailment. Lord of Mirkwood expects everyone to tiptoe around his Irish sensitivities but then lashes out with something like he directed at Taotesan.
I understand arguments can get pretty heated here, but Lord of Mirkwood went too far. Taotesan has experienced the worse of apartheid, and it is beyond insensitive to say something so horrendous to her.
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@ Solitaire and Afrofem
“I don’t believe we have 100’s of years of supreme belief behind us.”
On reflection I take that back. When I wrote it I had in my mind organisations such as the Klan and was thinking we don’t have anything like that here. Of course we do! We have many fascist and/or Nazi groups who believe white people are superior to all others. I made a very quick statement without thinking it through.
We also have an upper class elite who hold supremacist views of themselves. Racism begins at the top of the class system and works its way down so it stands to reason that would extend to attitudes towards their race. Everything in this country starts with class.
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@taotesan
Do you accept LoM’s apology?
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@LOM
You’re not sorry. You are telling Afrofem how sorry you are, but not Taotesan how sorry you are.
Heck with this much coaxing you could keep your half azz sorry if it were me.
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@Zoe Jordan
“We also have an upper class elite who hold supremacist views of themselves.”
We do too. It was that stratum of society that engineered “Whiteness” in the American colonies in 1676, just after Bacon’s Rebellion.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part1/1p274.html
This passage sums up the elite fears after Bacon’s Rebellion:
After Bacon’s Rebellion, European indentured servants could be held no longer than seven years. African indentured servants were condemned to lifetime chattel slavery that automatically extended to their children. White people, especially women were punished for “fraternizing” with Black people and the color line hardened.
Classic divide and conquer.
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@Solitare: I agree but I just wish he would learn to empathize and learn this is not about him and his Irishness. If we were discussing that as a topic that would be different but he showed major disrespect on many threads as you yourself have witnessed. Especially on the Cecil The Lion thread and many more.
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When I said that Mirkwood “wants racist free equitable society” I’m not entirely sure now if that statement is true. If you deny racism and the underlying structural system that supports racism then the idea of an “equitable society” is just an illusion. To equate his imagined racism against the Irish on the same level as what non whites experience everyday the world over is moral blindness.
I also had epiphany. I read a lot of classical works that talk about “liberty”. And today there is much talk within post classical liberal thought about returning to “liberty” as envisioned by the founders of the United States. And it occurred to me that for a lot of people “liberty” is code for allowing white people to do whatever it is they want. For Black Americans and groups of other people, liberty was never granted nor their rights given value and taken seriously. Liberty was something that whites and the ruling class had but it was never recognized as real freedom for generations of Americans both Native and otherwise.
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@michaeljonbarker
Liberty, liberalism and liberal have all become loaded words with shifting meanings.
I have noticed rightwing types and so-called “Third Way” ideologues using those words quite a bit.
I saw this article about the “Third Way” this morning and thought about some of the political currents you have been writing about lately:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/10/triplecrisis-latest-social-latest-social-democracy-the-third-way-and-the-crisis-of-europe-part-2democracy-the-third-way-and-the-crisis-of-europe-part-2.html
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@ Mary Burrell
Yes, he really does have issues with empathy and I wish he would work on that more. Even now when he is admitting what he said to Taotesan was wrong, he keeps talking about how he was pushed to the breaking point over a month of bitterness yadda yadda yadda. Still making it about him, which shows little empathy towards others. I wish he had it in him to stop with the qualifications and justifications and give a straightforward, simple, direct apology.
Although as Sharina rightly notes, with so much coaxing and hand-holding that apology doesn’t mean much anymore.
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Now you are being sarcastic Mirkwood.
I have the greatest respect for Taotesan, Villagewriter and other posters who live in the continent of Africa. Their insights and experiences hold great value.
A direct apology to Taotesan was all that was suggested.
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He will never directly apologize to Taotesan because he is not sorry. Aww the wonders of the “undercover” racist. This reminds me of this white female on a hair blog who called a black female an ape and then turned around and said she was sorry but she was angry when she said it. Of course she was not racist, but merely upset because she was being told about cultural appropriation.
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As far as I’m concerned, the ball in in taotesan’s court now. Her acceptance or rejection are what counts at this point.
taotesan, what say you?
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@Mirkwood: What was that about?
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@michaeljonbarker: Yes that was sarcasm.
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@LOM
I’m not sure if you read this post, but you should look and see what category of colorblind racist you fit in and then determine a way to fix it.
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Going on from Zoe’s comments, and as responded to by Afrofem, I have a very close view of the racism that still exists in the UK. For those in the so called ruling/upper classes it tends to have a colonial influence but in the other classes it is just as prevalent and is used as a device to oppress. Ok, it is not overt and if you are not black or a poc without experience of this then you can miss it. However, I have always been the minority amongst my friends and whilst initially you may not ‘get’ where they are coming from when they mention slights that have happened to them which they feel are related to their race, having straddled the fence and gone to a predominantly white secondary school and certainly in industry, you realise that it is not their imagination when people let you in on it and reveal their true side.
I have improved over the years immensely in understanding where the threat may lie, my wife has an extremely keen understanding of this and has never been wrong. I didn’t listen to her once to my peril. Never again!
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There is however much more knowledge and awareness and it seems interest (and hopefully respect) of other cultures which is positive and I hope continues
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@Fan
On your comment upthread you wrote:
” I can respect genuine clueless people who asks questions, wishes to learn and knows how to read, when and where to be quiet at the appropriate times.”
I think you have seen the situation clearly for some time now and I have not. I think I have been blinded by the fact that in my twenties I was a loose cannon who did not understand how my words and actions hurt other people and alienated them. I was so clueless then. I still have blind spots and tolerance for people who are struggling through their own blindness.
Reading your comment and considering what you said, I realized that I went out on a limb————and the limb broke. Hitting the ground is pretty unpleasant, but sometimes pain can be a great teacher.
I have learned a lesson I hope I don’t forget. The lesson that cluelessness can be a sign of an questing mind or cover for someone who refuses to open their mind or their heart to the genuine concerns or suffering of their fellow human beings.
Fan, thank you for that comment. Thank you for that lesson.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I am a Catholic, so the Act of Contrition actually does have meaning for me.”
Once again: This. Isn’t. About. You. And. Your. Feelings.
It’s about apologizing directly to Taotesan in a way that is meaningful for her.
Apparently you are incapable of doing that.
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I think that Mirkwood use of religion in the form of a religious prayer demonstrates how some people mask racism. Historically Christianity has been used by the West to placate the people they oppress through suggesting that this is there place in society and that all this suffering is part of God’s will. It is an attack on the minds of the oppressed to forgive and accept their oppressors. If Mirkwood did not mean it sarcastically then he is using it to show that he is above critisim, that he is at peace with himself for the comment and that asking forgiveness from God Trump’s any actual apology to Taotesan. It’s a deflection that keeps his ego intact and attempts to portray himself as the victim of our verbal criticisms. This goes back to Abagond’s observation that whites in denial do so because it is about their ego’s, feelings and sense of self worth.
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I liked Mirkwood first attempt at an apology as it was somewhat out of character of his usual postings and saw it as a step in the right direction. I didn’t notice that it wasn’t an actual apology until Solitare (the school teacher (lol) ) pointed it out.
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“Reading your comment and considering what you said, I realized that I went out on a limb————and the limb broke. Hitting the ground is pretty unpleasant, but sometimes pain can be a great teacher.”
@ Afrofem
I am not the one you should be thanking!
It is the essence/spirit within YOU that enables you to SEE all things ALL things according to how the Universe wishes you to see them. In other words, you followed your instructions.
LoM could have lived up to your belief in him. He could have shifted gears, let down all his defensive walls or taken a step higher on the ladder of empathy, caring and understanding when YOU STOOD UP for him. He could have gotten naked (meaning come out from that which he was HIDING/PROTECTING HIMSELF behind) and asked for mercy. You presented a beautiful opportunity for him to do so, and he missed it. Who knows? Perhaps he may have another chance to *get it* one day?
As MUCH as he ANNOYS me and grates on my last nerve – it’s you who stepped up and went against the grain, against the crowd here to demonstrate empathy and attempted to heal the situation. That makes YOU the SPECIAL one. Not many will go out on a weak limb and risk breaking their own neck for the sake of helping another, even an undeserving other!
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@michaeljonbarker
Actually, Sharina pointed this out first:
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@ At all
I am in the midst of a family crisis.
I have read all the comments, though. And will reply soonest that time will provide.
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@taotesan
I hope all is well. Many blessings to you and your family.
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@taotesan: I hope everything turns out alright for you and your family.
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@Afrofem
Not that it matters really but it was Solitare. Look under his first attempted apology.
“That was an explanation, not an apology.”
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@ Omnipresent
I wasn’t trying to imply that racism doesn’t exist in every class but merely that it starts at the top of the food chain and works it’s way down.. It is to be found every and any where.
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Zoe
I think the foundations or racism started that way but I don’t think that this is what is true now.
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Max Keiser on Black Lives Matter: ‘We’s all chattel slaves now”
(
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now tell me would you hear this on merican tv?
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