The following is based mainly on chapter two of “Racism Without Racists” (2010) by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, a professor of sociology at Duke University. He has studied colour-blind racism, the more subtle sort of racism that took the place of Jim Crow racism among White Americans after the 1960s.
Eduardo Bonilla-Silva asked samples of White Americans, most of them born between 1940 and 1980, questions about race issues. He noticed that at least half of them used each of the following four frames:
- Abstract liberalism – the key word here is “abstract”. Unlike Jim Crow racists, most whites now agree that all Americans, regardless of race, should have equal rights and equal opportunities. But it is just lip service. When asked about government policies that could bring about such equality, like affirmative action or busing, most whites will find one reason or another to oppose them and fail to offer any other solid measure. Freedom, democracy and equality are not things to be achieved but just empty words to dress up the way things are in America – and to dress up the racism of white people.
- Minimization of racism – Most whites believe there is still discrimination against blacks, but it is not as bad as it used to be and it is no longer the main thing holding blacks back. Instead it is their culture:
- Cultural racism – Unlike Jim Crow racists, most whites no longer believe that there is anything wrong with blacks biologically. Instead it is cultural: mostly bad families, bad values and a bad work ethic – black pathologies, blaming the victim. Some note that blacks use racism as an excuse and expect handouts.
- Naturalization of racism – racist practices in society, like highly segregated schools and neighbourhoods and low rates of interracial marriage, are seen as “natural”, as a part of human nature – not as the outcome of white racism. That means it is no one’s fault, that there is little that can be done to change it.
The frames are mixed and matched as required by the argument at hand. The frames help to support each other. For example, minimizing racism makes an abstract liberalism seem more acceptable. The frames can be used in a straightforward way (“Blacks are lazy”) or more subtly (“It is hard being a single mother”).
Whites think they are a better judge of racism than blacks, particularly since blacks tend to imagine racism when it is not there.
The truth is blacks imagine little. Discrimination in hiring, housing and education has been well documented. The government should take forceful action to end it as it goes against the American value of equal opportunity for all regardless of race.
Yet almost no white person talks like that. Instead they use the frames to avoid saying anything like that. At best they will admit to discrimination but then discount its effects. Or they will say they believe in equality of opportunity but then find reasons to oppose any policy with the teeth to achieve it.
See also:
Abagond 
On #1; Whites enjoy having an advantage in most things so many make two opposing arguments, as you note, when it comes to acknowledging racism and yet being against any reforms that would alleviate the problem.
And yet they don’t seem to be able to see the hypocrisy. Or rather they ignore the hypocrisy
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Good post, Abagond.
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@Abagond
Most whites believe there is still discrimination against blacks, but it is not as bad as it used to be and it is no longer the main thing holding blacks back.
This post would be great if you made a sub-argument supporting your main argument that racism is the primary factor holding back many black people in American society. All I read was that discrimination in hiring and housing is well-documented. That doesn’t contradict the belief that discrimination “is no longer the main thing holding blacks back.”
One may very well counter-argue that discrimination is the secondary factor behind the stagnation of many Black Americans, while also acknowledging the well-documented cases of discrimination against Blacks in the U.S.
Discrimination in… education has been well documented.
I would like to see some of the documentation of contemporary discrimination against black people in education.
In my experiences with the U.S. educational system I witnessed little discrimination against Black people.
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The logical conclusion of this article is as long as there are whites there will be racism thus to end racism you need to end whiteness.
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As always, this article is spot on. Excellent job.
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@BadWolf
That is being done.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2057618/John-L-Wilson-Jr-charged-Chicago-schoolgirl-Kelli-OLaughlins-murder.html
Nits make lice, yanno.
Cheers:)
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Well said. We had a similar post on our blog on this issue. Take a look and drop us a comment if you get a chance:
http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2011/10/denying-racism-is-new-racism.html
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Abagond:
“Equal rights” is a different concept from “equal outcomes”. Affirmative action and busing programs are attempts to create equal outcomes, not equal rights, and as a result actually produce “unequal” rights.
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@ Her Highness, the Queen
The more I hang out here, the more I see that you’re correct about wasted oxygen and exercises in futility! Those that can get a clue actually shut-up and listen. Those who will remain clueless can’t/won’t stop spewing/showcasing their (often deliberate) stupidity/ignorance.
But female led man/woman relationships??? I wish you much luck with that one!
LOL : ))
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Well said. I think that the american racist system is so deep in the collective mind that most do not even see it and if they do, they deny it because it makes them uncomfortable.
Like I’ve said before, why the goverment asks in its different forms my racial identity? For what purpose they need it? Why the System thinks it has to define me by my “race”? Why they have to define anyone by his/hers race? I can understand they ask for nationality, but race? Or, like in its more veiled form, my “ethnicity”?
As for the housing, if there is no racism, why whites do not seek cheap apartments on black neighbourhoods? Why whites do not movie in hordes to black Harlem? It would be very economical to buy an apartment on a black neighbourhood and renovate it, you could do it fo much less than in a all white neighbourhood. Why not do it?
As for the schooling, if there is no racism why do not the white parents put their kids to those schools where majority of the students are black? Why those schools with mostly black students do not get proper funding, why those buildings are not attented to? Why the best teatchers do not want to teach in those schools? You can ask questions like these if you are in doubt.
@randy: “Affirmative action and busing programs are attempts to create equal outcomes, not equal rights, and as a result actually produce “unequal” rights.” Really?
@badwolf: When racism ends, there will be just humans. As long as there is racism, there will be whites and whiteness and all that comes from that concept. The core belief that there is a white race is a false one. It is the key for the whole mess. That is why the dismantling of racism must start from that idea.
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Does the denial White people engage in, the magical thinking they practice and the fantasy world they inhabit have any adverse effects on their on their own psychological wellbeing?
Does constantly denying reality and magical thinking when it comes to Black people lead to them being delusional in general? Does it lead them to not being able to tell the difference between reality and fantasy?
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sam,
I think perhaps you’re making the mistake of: “If I can’t think of a cause for a situation that I’m observing, then the cause must be racism.”
As a public service to you and others, I shall attempt to offer some answers to your questions.
sam said:
Firstly, sometimes this does happen, in which case they’re no longer primarily mono-racial neighborhoods and thus not available for your observation as such.
If you’re referring to economically poor neighborhoods with a high percentage of black residents, the type which would contain these especially cheap apartments, a primary segregating factor is likely higher crime and less successful schools.
sam said:
Schools in poorer neighborhoods in many urban areas tend to be disproportionately black and hispanic. They tend to suffer from higher crime, lower parent participation, and other social pathologies. The learning environment in many of these schools is compromised by a lack of student discipline. The most troubled need police officers and metal detectors to keep students from committing violence against one another.
There is a strong desire by parents of all backgrounds to escape these problems and provide a better school environment for their children. Those with the economic means often do so. Perhaps you can explain how “racism” causes kids to behave disruptively in class, bring weapons to school, and commit violence.
Also, what about black parents who leave these neighborhoods in search of better schools…are they racist too? Why or why not? Discuss.
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@randy: Ok.
So your conclusion is that in those poor black and hispanic neighbourhoods there is much crime because they are hispanic and black neighbourhoods?
That they are poor because they are hispanic and black neighbourhoods?
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Abagond:
Colorblindness is a false concept. The notion that one can ignore race, color, and culture flies in the face of human nature. All races are not the same, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t want to be like everybody else, I’m Black! And the same goes for everybody else. Let me do me, you do you, and the world will be a much happier place. Busybodies create more problems than they solve in relation to race and racism.
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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Tyrone, NOTHING is as easy as ignoring race and color, provided humans are offered another system of discriminating between “Us” and “Them”. Linguistic and especially religious groupings work just as well. Or let us divide ourselves in groupings based on what we think about “Song of the South”, “The Help” and the reaction of the NAACP to those movies, there is nothing less sensible about that than thinking that “race” matters. On the other hand, thinking that race matters is very much part of US culture, while thinking that religion really matters the way race matters and much more so, is not. You seem to confuse the shared culture of the US with human nature, they really are not the same, and you can thank God for that.
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@ Sam
Darn it, man…
You’ve fallen into the trap. One that I outlined here, that goes off without fail:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/black-racism-is-not-a-mirror-image-of-white-racism/#comment-97397
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Usually, when one is surrounded by POC and they are all countering one’s beliefs about an issue only they experience in one’s country (racism), one would begin to question if the `facts’ they have been told are really true or not. When one continues to distribute their beliefs like `the truth’ and try to beat any opposing POC in an argument by any means possible, it just shows that one is there to put POC `in their place’. If you are doing all of this, you do not care about POC, you do not care about educating yourself on racism, you only care about your White superiority, how you are always right because of that, how the world has to be the way you see it and how you have to teach those upstart POC who’s boss.
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@franklin. 😀 darn!!
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@ Randy
Prior to desegregation, the condition of unequal rights existed without much objection from those on the “beneficial” side of the equation. If you see programs like AA and busing to be “unequal” in rights, does that mean you see the status quo of heavily segregated workforces and schools as somehow “equal”? After all, if blacks wanted to desegregate these schools, all they could do was simply move into the heavily white neighborhoods. And if they wanted those nice jobs, they could have just kept their heads down and applied for those positions that were heavily favored for whites. They would have gotten what they wanted. Eventually.
And yes, I know I’m biting into the troll apple. It’s a bad habit, but that bittersweet apple looked too good to resist.
@ A|an
No. Biting into one troll apple was enough.
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sam said:
Nobody said that.
Also, while the question of “why are these neighborhoods poor?” is a topic certainly worthy of discussion and debate, it’s irrelevant to the decision making process when parents are deciding where to send their kids to school.
I’ve never heard a parent say, “such-and-such a school is dangerous and provides poor educational outcomes, but I’m going to send my kid there anyways because I’m sympathetic to the historical causes of the social pathologies there.”
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Mack Lyons (@DDSSBlog) said:
I completely agree that historical discrimination has contributed significantly to the current state of poverty among black folks. However, acknowledging this does not automatically imply a particular solution to remediate.
In the poorest communities, social pathologies such as high out-of-wedlock births and lack of educational prioritization contribute significantly to continuing cycles of poverty. Forcing my kid to attend dangerous, failing schools isn’t going to change that.
Racial discrimination may have been the seed of many of these problems, but non-race related factors appear to now dominate. If you could wave a magic wand and eliminate all racial discrimination tomorrow, that would do nothing to change the attitudes of people in failing school districts to properly discipline their children and hold them accountable for being successful in their educational careers.
I won’t send my kids to schools where the parents don’t share my attitude towards education, and I doubt many others would either.
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As you will notice, class, Randy is a wonderful example of thinking in colour-blind racist frames. Cultural racism. Always finds a reason to oppose policies that would help blacks. Downplays white racism. Segregation is natural, reasonable, not racist.
He is also a good example of how the frames support each other. He uses cultural racism to support segregation as natural, for example.
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@ Abagand:
It’s always amusing when a commenter like Randy unintentionally supports the premise of your post.
—
(Not being a sock puppet but had to change my nom de plume due to the previous one being used recently by someone else).
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abagond,
With all due respect, your post (and subsequent comment) appears to suggest that one is racist unless they accept the specific prescribed “policies to help blacks” such as forced busing.
In other words, it’s racist to support policies to help blacks unless they’re the EXACT ones you’ve outlined. Neat.
Personally, I support school choice and the establishment of charter schools, which I believe do help poor blacks. Have you seen the heart-rending documentary Waiting for Superman?
Nobody has answered my question about whether or not middle-class blacks who send their kids to middle class schools (instead of poor black schools) are racist, or if it is just racist for me to do so.
Also, nobody has offered an explanation on how forcing my kid to attend violent, failing schools is going to change the social pathologies endemic to poor communities, such as high rates of non-intact families, a lack of broad parental involvement in the educational system, and lack of child discipline in schools.
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“Also, nobody has offered an explanation on how forcing my kid to attend violent, failing schools is going to change the social pathologies endemic to poor communities, such as high rates of non-intact families, a lack of broad parental involvement in the educational system, and lack of child discipline in schools.”
Randy is talking out both sides of his mouth as usual, or as Abagond would say “Always finds a reason to oppose policies that would help blacks. Downplays white racism.” Randy no one here is saying that YOUR child should attend a violent, failing school. But why is it ok for OTHER (i.e. Black and Brown kids) to attend violent and failing schools?!?!? In your mind are middle class white kids worth more than poor COC? How about providing
equal funding to inner city schools to lower the class sizes, provide better security, better instructors, better facilities, etc. etc. etc. Would you support that Randy? Furthermore, violence isn’t an issue only related to urban schools, Columbine or Virginia Tech anyone? And the push in many States to criminalize school related bullying isn’t about protecting poor Black and Brown kids either……
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@ Randy:
You keep misreading the post. It says nothing about “equality of outcomes”, but you made it about that. It does not say you HAVE to support busing, but you are making it about that. Read the post.
YOU use all four frames the post talks about. Right in this thread even. Without irony.
Each frame supports racist thinking and a racist status quo.
They allow you, for instance, to send your children to a good school while tons of black parents have to send their children to shit schools. And right here you are DEFENDING that arrangement. If that does not make you a racist scumbag then I do not know what does.
If I wrote a post about why it is all right for white neighbourhoods to have unsafe water supplies you would be all over me as a flaming racist. And rightfully so. But you want us to give you a pass for doing pretty much the same sort of thing in regard to blacks.
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@Randy
“Nobody has answered my question about whether or not middle-class blacks who send their kids to middle class schools (instead of poor black schools) are racist, or if it is just racist for me to do so.”
No one has provided an answer Randy because it is a NONSENSICAL question. By making such a statement YOU acknowledge that Whites control all of the economic resources in this country, whether it be on a national or local level. How are schools financed Randy? You should know the answer: property taxes. Since Black neighborhoods were INTENTIONALLY deprived of capital, businesses, and municipal resources, and CONTINUE to be deprived of capital, businesses, and municipal resources the value of most Black neighborhoods are less than the value of White neighborhoods. For States that provide funding to local municipalities, White neighborhoods (per pupil) continue to receive more funding that Black neighborhoods. Since we live in a society where an EDUCATION is the key to success, it is RATIONAL choice of the Blacks, who can afford to make the choice, to send their children to middle class (i.e. white) schools. White people continue to monopolize the wealth of this nation.
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Compare:
In the post I say:
And here is Randy:
Wow. It is like he cannot help himself.
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Abagond said
I find a few problems with this comment:
1. The situation is not as black and white as you suggest. Lots of white kids go to lousy schools and lots of black kids go to decent ones.
2. I support school choice, which gives committed parents in failing school districts options that they never had before.
3. What makes a school a so-called “shit school”? I contend that a huge factor (if not the biggest) is quality of the parents / students. If a school needs police offers and metal-detectors to reduce violence, then that is a failure of the parents. Full stop.
In such a situation, how would newer textbooks, fancier facilities, or anything else solvable by increased budgets make any appreciable difference?
By the way, this principle works the same in wealthy districts and private schools. Lousy parents and undisciplined kids aren’t the exclusive products of poor communities. There are a great number of rich-community schools that deliver horrible educations.
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The idea i see often proposed is that the schools where blacks go are bad because they are violent, but at no point during the argument is it specified who is inflicting the violence. For all we know it could be some invisible gnomes punching black scholars randomly. The fact is that the violence and the failure are the direct result of the pupils. There are no bad schools, there are bad students. As for the funding excuse it has been showed before that even black schools in the DC area that receive some of the highest expenditures per capita in the country are worse than white schools which receive half as much money per pupil. Busing blacks only serves to spread the failure and the disruption around to other schools.
As for housing I don’t think anybody has ever heard this statement “Ever since those black people moved in the neighborhood has gotten much better”. The fact is that blacks are forced to follow whites around because they are incapable of creating livable communities on their own. White flight is often accused of ruining the neighborhood, yet if blacks were as capable as whites, the neighborhood would have continued to look the same and the whites would have looked like fools. We all know that is not the case.
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@ Dav & Randy:
Thank you for your excellent examples of cultural racism.
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@ Dav
Your ignorant comment:
“As for the funding excuse it has been showed before that even black schools in the DC area that receive some of the highest expenditures per capita in the country are worse than white schools which receive half as much money per pupil.”
My statement refuting that comment with link:
Overall, state and local funding for D.C. Public Schools (DCPS) falls below per pupil funding of all but the of the surrounding suburban districts, and in inflation-adjusted dollars is about
equal to fiscal year 1991 per pupil funding levels.
http://www.washlaw.org/…/DC_Public_School_Funding_Report_
“White flight is often accused of ruining the neighborhood, yet if blacks were as capable as whites, the neighborhood would have continued to look the same and the whites would have looked like fools. We all know that is not the case.”
Capable or have as much access to wealth? Cause of course, blacks are paid just as much as Whites, and the government responses to our needs just as much as Whites.
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abagond,
You’re spot-on that I’m espousing one of the “frames” you posted. That does not mean the underlying principle is untrue.
As I’ve mentioned before, if you describe to me the characteristics of a child’s study habits and parental-educational interactions, I’ll wager that I can predict their educational outcome with reasonable accuracy, regardless of race.
If culture does not predict success, why is it that so many students with strict FOB-y parents often outperform their peers?
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@ Randy:
Just because you believe something is true does not mean you are right.
I am not going to go back down Randy’s Bedtime Argument. Not even YOU believe in it since you are unwilling to send your children to bad schools.
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@ Randy:
So which of the frames do you espouse as true?
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@ Dav
You live in a fantasy world where whites are not racist and where money does not matter. Unless you are a child, that is delusional.
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@ Abagond
Randy defends the status quo because it simply works for him and his. He’s only concerned about sending his kids to the best schools, while he’s not worried about the shit schools that black American children have to put up with. That’s not his concern. Keeping himself and his in the most favorable situations is, and if that means using all four frames to maintain status quo, then so be it.
@ Dav
Because black Americans are naturally incapable of maintaining the same community standards as their former white counterparts. That’s what’s being implied in the above.
This supposed “natural incapability of the Negro” is always used as an semi-unspoken argumentative crutch by those enthralled in the all-you-can-eat buffet of “whiteness.”
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@ Abagond
No, he’s just a big believer in the inherent goodness of whites. How can they be racist when they’re naturally good guys who don’t mean any harm to anyone?
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abagond:
Number 2: minimization of racism / primacy of culture.
I don’t think it’s inherently a property of any particular race, and that it applies equally to people of all ethnicities. Also, I acknowledge the role of historical racism in playing a significant role in setting the stage for current social pathologies in poor black communities.
Unwinding these social pathologies should be the goal of antipoverty movements. Pretending like the main problem today is this sanctified concept of “racism” does nothing to address the genuine causes of poverty or to help develop effective solutions. It also strikes many as being intellectually dishonest.
Ask yourself this: if you could wave a magic wand and make racism disappear instantly, could failing schools decommission their metal detectors tomorrow?
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Sometime back in my childhood, I learned that “colorblind” was the correct attitude toward race. I’m not sure how I learned that, but I suspect the famous MLK quote about color and character might have been the seed. Then in college I was told that this paradigm is wrong. The teacher explained more of these things, but my heart was closed and I resented it. I had been the target of “reverse” racially motivated bullying as a child, and I thought it was all the same. As Agabond has noted, calling a white person a racist is a terrible insult, so I would prefer to say that I have secretly harbored biases that I could not erase. I have opposed affirmative action on the principle that discrimination is wrong, but how to correct the problem then? More education to remedy it? Eh, right. How about if you could reconfigure the propaganda machine? (I say that tongue-in-cheek.)
To Randy:
A couple of points… do not underestimate the power of the propaganda machine. The media distort reality. Everyone thinks they are immune to it and everyone is wrong. Another, consider that things like famine, war, disease, etc. tend to inhibit human potential. If a nation or people takes enough beatings, they will weaken and fall. For example, Japan has taken a devastating blow, but they are strong and they will stand, albeit weakened. But if they were to take another hit and another, they would fall into poverty and cultural decline. Black African Americans have taken beating after beating (literally and figuratively) in America’s history. During slavery families were ripped apart and their cultural identity erased. (The loss of so many people from African communities surely weakened those communities as well.) Yet black Americans still stood strong after they were freed. Events through the 19th and 20th centuries continued to beat them. Jim Crow, Rosewood et el., and families split apart in search of better opportunities in a climate of withering racism and terrorism. And there is the continued racism today, which is more subtle yet still ubiquitous. If you think the educational system is not part of the problem, please look into books by Jonathan Kozol.
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@ Randy
Pointless question. What you asked is no different than me asking:
“If you could wave a magic wand and instantly jail a man who beat someone up, could his victim’s hospital instantly heal his wounds?” J
Just because it doesn’t instantly fix a problem in its entirety, that doesn’t mean it’s not a viable solution. What you are prone to suggesting is that everyone look at something other than that historical elephant in the room (white racism) and focus on other, “more comfortable” (a.k.a. non-white related) causes of black problems.
THAT’S intellectual dishonesty!
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@randy: Since you addressed me, I will answer.
“I contend that a huge factor (if not the biggest) is quality of the parents / students. If a school needs police offers and metal-detectors to reduce violence, then that is a failure of the parents. Full stop.”
So you are saying that black parents are the reason why black pupils are bad and that is the reason why the black schools are bad?
Do you understand how ignorant and simple you sound? Do you have no concept of society, social eviroments at all? Do you have a zero understanding of history? I think you do.
One of the major reasons to the decline of black neighbourhoods during 1900’s was this: the white establishment allowed the white organised crime (first the jewish and later on the american italian) to bring in tons of heroin and market it to the blacks. Jewish gangsters dominated the drug business before WW2 and italians after it. This has been well documented, proven and written about.
CIA had its contacts in the underworld, they were called the Million dollar men. Some we do know, like Meyer Lansky during his time in Cuba, Santo Trafficante of Tampa etc. CIA protected these men, provided them with connections to the french-corsican gangsters in Indochina, France and Mexico after WW2. In 1960’s Air America (CIAs cover) brought heroin from laotian war lord Van Pao to Vietnam and other spots in South East Asia, and from there to Trafficantes mafia associates.
Narcotis Bureau knew most of the major drug lords in 40’s, 50’s and 60’s but found that sometimes their cases were hijacked, stopped or simply made away by higher ups.
The FBI did not touch mafia with a stick. Only during Bobby Kennedys tenure as attorney general they had to do something but when he was eliminated by his brothers death, it was back in to the business again. And one has to remember that Joe Kennedy himself, Bobbys father, was an old bootlegging partner with Frank Costello etc.
The flood of heroin ruined many black areas litterally. Just like crack brought huge devastation back in the 80’s, heroin did so in 40’s and 50’s BUT back then nobody did nothing to stop it, unless it spilled over to the white areas. MLK and specially Malcolm X knew this and spoke about this. They also knew that they were risking their lives doing so, taking on the mafia, CIA and the FBI.
This drug wave broke the fabric of many black communities, families, the economy, and created the criminal life style and culture that haunts american inner cities even today. Were there black criminals and gangs before this? Of course, but the criminality associated with the massive drug business was something new and different and it was born during these times.
It is also very significant that only after the drug laws came harder in the 50’s, the white organised crime moved from the control of the street trade to the whole sale business, to the shadows. Back in the 40’s mafia had its own street dealers but after the new laws and harder punishments in the 50’s, they all but dissappeared and the black criminals took over that level.
It is also very interesting that the really powerful black organised crime emerged only AFTER the economies of these areas were ruined. It was only after most of the capital from these areas had been drained, the major black drug bosses appeared. Why then? Why not when there had been a black middle class, wealthy black business men and businesses in 1920’s and 30’s, even in the 40’s in these urban areas?
All this has been documented Randy, so check out yourself. There is just too many links in the Net for me to give you. Use your good education and find them yourself.
@dav: “As for the funding excuse it has been showed before that even black schools in the DC area that receive some of the highest expenditures per capita in the country are worse than white schools which receive half as much money per pupil.”
You must be as simple and ignorant as Randy here. You ever heard the corruption? You ever heard funds ending somewhere other than to the designated place?
Not so many months ago I saw a documentary about black schools in Washington and Baltimore. In both cases the schools were failing because of the funding was cut, because of the poor academic achievemnts. And here is the thing: even before the cuts these schools did not get the money they were supposed to get.
The principals and others, community leaders tried to find out why there is almost no maintenance of the buildings even though there is supposedly money for it. They wanted to know how come they have no money to hire good teachers, even though they were supposed to have that kind of money. The money from the federal budget and from the state etc. just mystically dissappeared somewhere.
Is that because the pupils are simply bad because they are black? Think about it and do not be such a racist baby.
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Franklin said:
I’m suggesting that the man has to a great degree already been jailed. It seems more relevant and effective to address the victim’s wounds.
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sam:
Maybe it’s the language barrier, but you’ve made a significant error in your premise. I’m saying parents in failing schools are the reason why failing schools are bad. Many of these parents are black. Many aren’t. That is not the same thing as saying “black parents are bad”.
I do appreciate the history lesson. Regardless of how these social pathologies came to be, clearly they stand in the way of poor communities advancing.
There seems to be nearly universal reticence to address the 600 kilo elephant in the room. It’s the parents. Parents are the ones who need to prepare their children for school, parents are the ones who need to ensure their children are disciplined, and parents are the ones who need to hold children accountable for their educational progress.
This principle has nothing to do with race.
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@ Randy:
Why does it strike them as being intellectually dishonest?
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@ Sam: Thanks.
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@ Randy
And because more victims (with the same injuries) have been reported since he’s been jailed, that would demonstrate that he has accomplices on the outside helping him continue business.
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abagond:
While the ultimate causes of the social pathologies in poor communities may include such as slavery, lack of drug enforcement, etc, the proximate causes are clearly identifiable factors such as high out-of-wedlock births, poor child discipline, and lack of parental involvement in children’s education.
Until these are honestly addressed, the fortunes of such communities will remain dimmed.
It’s an odd situation. On the one hand, society views people as having full independence and agency, with enshrined constitutional rights guaranteeing personal freedom. Naturally, people are quite resistant to being told what to do.
On the other hand, we’re asked to understand that social pathologies such as those which present (not exclusively by any means) in many poor black communities are caused by historical forces such as slavery, Jim Crow, etc.
So which is it? Do people have full agency or don’t they?
This is a practical problem not a semantic one.
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@ Randy:
I do not see how that answers the question.
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The intellectual dishonesty is that nobody is saying to poor people: “Your behaviors are keeping you poor.” Poor people who are able to adopt different behaviors are able to migrate out of poverty, regardless of race.
Of course whenever someone brings this up, the Greek Chorus chimes in with, “They’re poor because of this-and-that series of historical factors.”
Even if this is 100% true, it makes zero difference when determining future outcomes. Regardless of how people came to be in poverty and the sympathies one has for their plight, behavior will either keep them there or give them (or their children) a pathway out.
Any solution that does not directly address and change behavior is a failing one.
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Randy, eating, drinking, tax paying, illness, the rent are keeping you poor if you cannot get a well paying job.
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Randy, you are one obtuse anal apeture!
All this has been documented Randy, so check out yourself.
Why would he? He is quite content in lalala land.
It’s the parents. Parents are the ones who need to prepare their children for school, parents are the ones who need to ensure their children are disciplined, and parents are the ones who need to hold children accountable for their educational progress.
No it aint stupid. That’s a simplistic explaination for a complex set of circumstances. If you have a racist education system , it doesn’t matter how much cash you put into it. Many of these teachers set out to quash any aspirations a black child may initially have. If you get a system populated with such malfeasants, then woebetide the recipients of their racist(subtle or overt) behaviour. But then again, people of your ilk do not want to invest in infastructure to minimize the conditions which may lead to such things. Let the chips fall where they may, is your clarion call!
Even if this is 100% true, it makes zero difference when determining future outcomes. Regardless of how people came to be in poverty and the sympathies one has for their plight, behavior will either keep them there or give them (or their children) a pathway out.
Sure it will. You are really dumb, are you for real? Ever hear of systemic racism Randy? Probably not! Quite oviously you have never dealt with it. Spoken like a true armchair critic who has never been confronted by such. Get a clue!
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I simply amazes me how stubbornly some whites hold on to their privilege. Is is so painful to admit for one second that historic and current systemic racism gives you an unearned advantage? Why do some whites become autistic when it comes to the race based realities of America?
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@Eshowoman, would you be so good to apologize? You have no reason to compare the dishonesty you describe with people on the autistic spectrum. If they only were autistic, and thus no good at telling lies at all, life would be a lot easier…
To paraphrase Toonder: There are two kinds of people, some have nothing, for them life is a joy, they can get something more, life is actually a joyful experience to them, others have everything, they can never be glad again on the occassion of acquiring something, as all there is left to them is losing something, life is nothing but sorrow and worries…
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@randy:
“Poor people who are able to adopt different behaviors are able to migrate out of poverty, regardless of race.”
“Of course whenever someone brings this up, the Greek Chorus chimes in with, “They’re poor because of this-and-that series of historical factors.”
Even if this is 100% true, it makes zero difference when determining future outcomes.”
Oh man, you really are ignorant!
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Herneith, Bulanik, sam, and others: are you suggesting that if a white student and a black student attended the same school, invested the same amount of work into their educations, and had parents with similar involvement in their educations, that the white student would significantly outperform the black student?
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Oh Abagond. Your race posts nearly always vomit in the face of personal responsibility. So detrimental.
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There are children who live in severely impoverished parts of the world where they need to take their own tables and chairs to school and they still receive an education. In class they listen, after school they go home and very often help their parents make some money for the family. At home they do their homework and the next morning they make their way to school again. My parents did this in 70s Nigeria. I’m afraid, excuses are excuses.. are excuses.
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@ lola
In case you didn’t notice, Abagond’s race posts aren’t usually about “children who live in severely impoverished parts of the world where they need to take their own tables and chairs to school..:”
His posts are often about his personal experiences, insights and the experiences of other black people living in a very racist system in America. Your comparison of Nigeria to America is like comparing a skyscraper to a one room shack. Yes, they’re both buildings, but they are vastly different in their construction and complexity.
Nonetheless, there are MANY African-americans who succeed against overwhelming racist odds. So what does that mean? That absolutely no one should succumb or fall victim to a very racist system that’s designed to hold back and marginalized, exploit and oppress in all manner of ways?
Yes personal responsibility matters, but lets not be too quick to discount/dismiss the impact and the effects historical and current racism (whiteness) has on the lives and minds of many non-white people.
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Well, Randy, if we would equalize the quality of the parents as well, No, not out-perform, but there is a good chance paleface will be getting more rewards for his performance.
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@ lola:
You have no idea how I wish it were that simple. Personal responsibility is under my control, it is something I can change – and while I am not perfect, it is not one of my weaknesses.
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Right. Which is why you went to school, got a decent job and look after your family (sorry to be personal). So I don’t understand how you can excuse kids who don’t want to at least try and better themselves (like getting an education) even with the barriers of racism. I feel like you’re being a bit of what they call a ‘bleedin heart liberal’ and are making excuses for others who have given up or have just never tried anyway
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@matari,
When you scratch beneath the surface they are not all that different. In the US whites may be holding some blacks back through social and institutional racism, yet in some parts of africa education is deliberately lacking because either the authorities do not want their people educated – education is power – and sometimes it’s a case of stealing the money that ought to be used for education. Either way these are both examples of setbacks from The Man. However in the US there are still teachersn still books, still free education (until end of high school I believe) so excuse me if I lack sympathy.
Your analogy is very telling btw
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@ lola
I believe we went through this before: most black people I know work hard and do their best. Most of them know, way better than whites, how important education is: education was their road out of poverty and they know it. I do not keep pointing that stuff out because it goes without saying. It never becomes an issue except when talking to teenagers and talking to people like you or Randy or white people generally who stereotype blacks as lazy and irresponsible.
In my experience whites think blacks use racism as an excuse to sit back and blame others and expect a handout, while the living, breathing black people I know see racism as a warning that they have to be better than whites, that they will not be given the benefit of the doubt.
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‘Most black people YOU know’ is not reality for everyone is it? You obviously have a certain social circle that is not representative of the whole of America – just like anyone.
How about writing some educational posts on exactly what policies/laws are keeping blacks and POC back in the US? I would love to read this and gain a greater understanding into what the problems actually are. I’ve seen many many posts about white racists from you, and tbh it’s all very one-dimensional.
And saying that I stereotype blacks as lazy is facetious at best. Call me a self-hater because i don’t agree with you Abagond. Transparent tactic but, hey, guess it works on this blog.
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@lola: That was funny. You really think it is all about personal responsibilty alone? Well, you do not sound nigearian at all, you sound like Randy or one of his pals.
I mean, if you are nigerian, you must know that there are kids in Nigeria who will never rise above poverty, who will die simply because they are undernurished, under educated, and who have no access to any health care. You think it is because they do not take responsibility of their lives?
On the other hand, if you were right, what would be the excuse to that sorry ass state of Nigeria and nigerians in general? That they lack self responsibility? That if nigerians themselves just would roll up their leeves and get to work, they would be ok? That there is no oppression and system which upholds it?
I think that you are some right wing whitey posing as nigerian on this blog pretending to promote those values which support the american system of unequality, american class system, american economics which benefit the richest 1% of the population, and mostly, the american race system. Those values, after all, are non beneficial to nigerians, just as they are against the well being of the majority of americans.
So sorry, I can not take you seriously. 😀
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@ Sam
Some Africans and West Indians in America talk like her, but generally they are not old enough or have not been in the country long enough to experience and understand the racism that goes on there. Their education and foreignness protects them for a while but not for ever.
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@Lola
“How about writing some educational posts on exactly what policies/laws are keeping blacks and POC back in the US? I would love to read this and gain a greater understanding into what the problems actually are.”
Lol, if you have being reading Abagond’s blog posts, instead of engaging in DAD (deny, avoid, and derail) tactics, you would SEE that he has been doing exactly that! And I love how you couch your statement with the phrase “what the problems actually are”, because of course, YOU would know better than Abagond.
“I’ve seen many many posts about white racists from you, and tbh it’s all very one-dimensional.”
Lola, why don’t YOU explain why his posts on racism are one-dimensional?!? In my opinion, and I think many other readers would agree, Abagond’s posts have done a great service to explain and provide concrete examples of what WHITE SUPREMACY is, and the many ways that it operationalizes and reinforces itself in American society.
“Call me a self-hater because i don’t agree with you Abagond.”
You don’t agree with him because you like the way things are…….I if you really are Black (which I doubt that you are), it would behoove you to reading Abagond’s post on rented Negros. The post might help you to drop that mind frame you currently operation with….
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@ Abagond
I would go further than that in terms of West Indians and Africans who think like that. As a West Indian myself, I notice it is an INTENTIONAL choice on their part to adopt the mainstream opinion of African Americans as a way to curry favor or get a leg up (i.e. we are more civilized and have a better culture, like the so called “culture” of African Americans was developed in a vacuum). I think you should do a post on this.
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@sam i do not sound nigerian? – what a bizarre statement. so going with your train of thought, do you really think that most nigerians would have much sympathy for any american knowing what they face in their own country? knowing what actually having no control over one’s personal circumstances is really like? i think you’ll find that the answer is no. you make it seem like you believe that black kids in the US don’t have schools to go to. that they don’t have any opportunities.they may not be ideal but at least they are there my friend. in fact, i have shown some of my family and nigerian friend this blog, and not taking away from some of the interesting, informational stuff on here, they scratch their heads at these kinds of posts.
my point was that black americans do not face hardships to the extent some do in other parts of the world. black kids in america do not have to work in sweatshops or on some coffee bean farm for next to nothing. the basics for a decent life are there in the USA.
@mk82 – a lot of these white racists posts are perfect fodder for a lot of his readers. they feel that someone understands – someone gets it. which is fine, but they are repetitive. truisms, but the same thing regardless:
white racism/supremacy exists in america. it gives white people ‘white privilege’ and it holds people of colour back to an extent. it’s unfair and many white americans do not want to accept the realities that POC have to go through.
the funny thing is that it takes just one post on here for someone to say that i’m white, a self-hater or a ‘rented negro’ (that’s one i haven’t heard before haha). i should wager a bet on it next time round. it’s interesting how to be a true black we must all think alike. oh wait, only evil whites think we’re a homogeneous group right? 😉
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@Lola
“@mk82 – a lot of these white racists posts are perfect fodder for a lot of his readers. they feel that someone understands – someone gets it. which is fine, but they are repetitive. truisms, but the same thing regardless: “
LOL, LOL, LOL!! Couldn’t we make the same statement about what YOU post? This whole ideal about Black Americans complaining too much? The fact that people in Africa (or any other third world place) have it worse than Black Americans? The assumption that systematic racism can easily be overcome? Seriously, what you write has been written thousands of times before by people who defend the status quo. But it doesn’t prevent YOU from repeating these so called “truisms”………..
“the funny thing is that it takes just one post on here for someone to say that i’m white, a self-hater or a ‘rented negro’ (that’s one i haven’t heard before haha). i should wager a bet on it next time round. it’s interesting how to be a true black we must all think alike. oh wait, only evil whites think we’re a homogeneous group right? ”
Actually it took a number of your posts, in which you have used DAD (deny, avoid, and derail) tactics for me to drawn such a conclusion about you. And I love how you reduce legitimate criticisms of your hollow arguments to “black people must all think alike”. No one here is asking to you think like them, or in my case like me: we all come from different backgrounds, racially, ethnically, educationally, etc. What I am asking is that you stop apologizing for the status quo, and to help make this society a better place for Black people to live in…….
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Reads Lola’s comments and asks himself, “Is she for real?”
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@ brothawolf:
Oh, but of course ‘he’ is for real – a real troll! 😎
If one walks like, talks like, acts like, thinks like…one most likely is what they emulate! 😀
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@lola: Well, I have to admit that I visited Nigeria way back in the 80’s but I must say that I never met a single nigerian who was thinking like that. And I met some good nigerians and some very bad bad nigerians, and even the latter did not think like that. And the ones I have met since do not share your view.
But if you really think like you said you think, then you must believe that those kids working for next to nothing in coffebean farms or sweatshops are personally responsible for their lives. Like you said, it is up to the individual to better his/hers own life, it is nobody elses fault. If those conditions on those coffe farms and sweatshops are so bad, well, it is up to those slave kids to make them better. After all, it is only their fault, their responsibility. Right? Nooooooo…
As for this misery competition, that is very short road indeed. Nigerians are among the richest in Africa. What are you complaining? People are dying for hunger in parts of continent, so compared to them, you nigerians have it hunky dory. Right?
You understand where I am gettin at? 😀
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“Oh Abagond. Your race posts nearly always vomit in the face of personal responsibility. So detrimental.”
I’m not against personal responsibility. In fact I support it and live by it. HOWEVER, why is it EVERYTIME someone uses those words it’s ALWAYS directed towards poor people, or rather poor people of color anywhere and everywhere? Like I said I’m not against it, but I’m frustrated by how it’s used in conversations.
People cry “personal responsibility” as if that’s the only solution to overcome even the worst of oppression. At the same time they declare that absolutely nothing else is the cause, underlying or otherwise, for that person still struggling at the bottom. It’s another way of saying that “those” people are just lazy which has a hint of racial or color disdain. Yes, there are those who overcame adversity, but there are always exceptions to the rule. Exceptions don’t cancel the rule.
I’m just saying.
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Herneith, Bulanik, sam, and others: are you suggesting that if a white student and a black student attended the same school, invested the same amount of work into their educations, and had parents with similar involvement in their educations, that the white student would significantly outperform the black student?
Performance doesn’t account for much if you are ‘streamed’ through the system by racist teachers. My sister and brother in law are both teachers. My sister at the high school level, and my brother in law at the elementary school level(he teaches science, she teaches the international baccalaureate courses in social sciences). They have seen this and experienced this with their own children! This is a generational thing also. They tryed to discourage my father when he informed the guidance teacher he wanted to go to university. They told him he would be better off taking up menial labour or a trade, which didn’t pay as well as it does now(and how). My sister sees this racist behaviour quite frequently. They particularly seem to have a hard on for black boys at an early age. By the time they get to high school, many are demoralized. After being shat on for years on end, many begin to believe the garbage being fed them and internalize it. It manifesst in many ways. Very few have the wherewithal at that point to say “fuck” it, I’m going to get an education in spite or those a**holes. Many come from homes where their parents work several jobs to keep food on the table. The old school parents have been conditioned themselves so do not question the questionable treatment of their children, or they simply feel that they don’t have a voice. My sister had to go to bat for her own kids on many occasions in spite of being a teacher herself. So no Randy, something ain’t right in the land of Goshen.
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I used to homeschool my children. They scored well on state tests and so on. I can no longer homeschool them so I had to send them to public school. It is like they feed them stupid pills or something. They have been persuaded that a) they are not terribly bright and b) they do not have to go to university. “College is not for everyone” is now their new mantra. Their teachers TELL them that shit. In fucking 2011. They certainly did not get it from me or my wife, who would be NOWHERE (except some “drug-scarred” part of the city) without a university degree. And when they do poorly the teachers blame ME for it in royal Randy fashion.
This is hardly a strange case. The average IQ of blacks goes DOWN during high school.
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They tried to screw with my nephews. If they wrote a particularly brilliant essay, they were accused of plagerizing. Recently, one of my nephews got a 96% on a fourth year exam. They rarely give out such marks, the rest of the class got 50s’ and 60s’. The TA had to do a ‘Bell Curve’ and award the students eight extra marks. During a presentation for which he got an ‘A’, the professor(not the TA) approached him, told him he was impressed and suggested that he take up a profession in some sort of career that required public speaking. Had my sister and brother in law not supplemented their education and went to bat for them, my nephews may have ended up the very stereotypes which many whites believe to be true with the shiftless and uninterested parents. I have a friend who is now a lawyer and had to take the law school to a Human Rights Tribunal in order to gain admittance. The list unfortunately isn’t exhaustible. You have to be better in order to gain any credence with these racist fools. In fact I think many of them love it when they chance upon a live person who fits these stereotypes, they don’t have to feel too bad about feeling racist, after all, the niggers do it to themselves. They love having these stereotypes confirmed.
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@ Lola:
This post, as it turns out, is based on sociological studies, not on my own Strange Experiences and Observations.
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@ Herneith & MK82: Thanks.
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A huge hole in the black pathology or cultural racism argument is that even when you compare just middle-class blacks to middle-class whites, a comparison which throws out all those supposedly Shiftless Negroes of the Inner City, you STILL see considerable differences by race in unemployment rates, household wealth, life expectancy and reading scores. “Whites are racist” makes sense of that, “Blacks are lazy and irresponsible” or “Blacks do not care about education” does not.
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“In fact I think many of them love it when they chance upon a live person who fits these stereotypes, they don’t have to feel too bad about feeling racist, after all, the niggers do it to themselves. They love having these stereotypes confirmed.”
Ain’t it the truth? As long as one, just one, black person portrays negative stereotypes, old or contemporary, that’s more than enough to satisfy white people’s fetish with black stereotypes. More than one will give them extreme orgasms, making them feel great about not being black.
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“Ain’t it the truth? As long as one, just one, black person portrays negative stereotypes, old or contemporary, that’s more than enough to satisfy white people’s fetish with black stereotypes.”
Exactly. I, personally, refuse to be a stereotype for whites. The sad thing is, most of the black people who live in my neck of the woods are so immersed in their own self-hatred that kissing white ass is much more palatable to them than deigning to speak to a person who shares their skin color, and who just might share similar experiences. But no, they would rather sell their souls and eschew camaraderie solely to satisfy their desparate need to be accepted by whites – and that acceptance can and will be withdrawn for no cause. I think whites seem to get some sort of charge over that behavior – yet another way for them to feel good about themselves by treating another human being like shite.
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@sepultra13: You might be into something there, the whites treat each other like shite all the time too 😀
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Abagond said:
Are such metrics enough to diagnose racism? If so, why aren’t you going after the Asians and Jews who outperform the baseline for whites?
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@sepultura:
Maybe kissing white behind is a kind of fetish in and of itself, these self-loathing clowns seem to get off on it. I’ve met self-loathers like that. They go out of their way to avoid other blacks as you said. You see, they ain’t like us lowly nigras! I’ve seen these clowns get done over by the very whites whose favour the toady to, it ain’t nice! The fall out was catacysmic. Guess who they ran to?
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To MK82:
Overall, state and local funding for D.C. Public Schools (DCPS) falls below per pupil funding of all but the of the surrounding suburban districts..
Your link above didn’t work.. (perhaps it was the formatting of the message system of the blog..) is this the paper you were referring to..from 2003..?
Click to access DC_Public_School_Funding_Report_Feb2003.pdf
Perhaps I misread it but the paper i found indicated that DC ranked 3rd out of 6 when compared to surrounding suburban counties, not last. Note that these the DC area (including Washington DC..) has some of best funded districts in the country. Per the NEA when ranked against the other 50 states (for educational comparisons DC is classified as a state..) per pupil DC was number 1 in spending per pupil. However when there was an adjustment for the cost of living it was 13th. Unfortunately the spending has not yielded commiserate results. At least two places where Black students have excelled is in the US military schools (Children of military staff who attend on base schools…) and home schooled students. Black students at DOD schools: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4133712
I would like to see studies that showed demonstrated/documented these successes and have that success replicated. I can easily believe that many predominantly Black school districts are underfunded but at least with DC’s example increasing the funding to levels higher than states that are predominantly White (Such as the Dakotas…) does not necessarily lead to academic success. The US has doubled (adjusted for inflation..) per pupil funding for schools since 1980 but has barely budged standardized test results, graduation rates etc. The US has some of the highest per pupil spending per GDP K-12 education spending per pupil on the planet but we rank poorly against many industrial nations. Money helps but it would appear that is not a solution in and of itself.
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[…] that the 56 Blows -captured, pre-youtube, on grainy graphic video – shattered the silence of color-blind White Denial. Exploded onto our TV screens, reported so somberly — finally the evidence!!! of what every […]
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[…] that the 56 Blows -captured, pre-youtube, on grainy graphic video – shattered the silence of color-blind White Denial. Exploded onto our TV screens, reported so somberly — finally the evidence!!! of what every […]
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[…] colour blind racism: the four frames – how many does The Economistuse? […]
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the moral is, if you didnt pay attention in school and take advantage of the free education and go on to college, then some white guy stole your pencil.
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[…] colour blind racism: the four frames […]
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As a parent I can tell you that I would go to my son’s school every day, volunteer and talk to the teachers. My son is bright, gifted even and the teachers would fight me, under score and under play my son and every moment was a battle. I am a work-at-home mom and I had time to be on their collective ass. What about parents who both have to work just to get by? Monitor their kids and their teacher’s racism? Not easy.
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[…] Source: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/colour-blind-racism-the-four-frames/ […]
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People objecting to the phrases “Black Lives Matter” and “DEFUND THE POLICE” are, nine times out of ten (my guess), examples of abstract liberalism, of being against racism in theory but not in practice.
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I got nuthin’ for people objecting to the phrase “Black Lives Matter”. They do and should.It’s stupid and racist to try and double-speak your way into saying that they shouldn’t.
However, personally, I think the de-fund message means too many things to too many people and requires too much explanation. To some it literally is synonymous with “abolish” and plays to their anarchist desires to burn it all down. For others it implies a reduction and reapportioning of funding to more appropriate civil services and for still others it means punish the police.
…Now that I typed that all out, maybe you’re right. Policing, as a system, is racist and broken. I personally know people involved in trying to rectify that but, culture change takes time (particularly in a culture that doesn’t acknowledge it’s own problem). During that time, more people will die. Eradicating the police and starting over would create a period of unrest that may also cost some lives. But, it is racist and selfish of me to want for a slower transition that may protect my life at the expense of yours.
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I just added this web site to my google reader, great stuff. Cannot get enough!
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