High poverty counties. Notice how they avoid the word “white” in this map and split them between two colours (blue and grey).
Black pathologies are things like high rates of poverty, crime, rape, imprisonment, unemployment, fatherlessness, out-of-wedlock births, drug use and dropping out of high school. Depending on who you ask, pathologies are rooted in bad genetics, bad upbringing, bad values or some other inner fault of black people.
How come I talk so little about black pathologies?
In an abusive relationship where the husband beats the wife there is much talk about what is wrong with the woman, but almost no talk about what is wrong with the man. His violence is blamed on her: if dinner was on time, if the house was cleaner, etc, then he would not have to hit her.
Is the woman perfect? No. Does she have faults? Yes. Should she do better. Of course.
But it is also besides the point.
Even if she were perfect, her troubles would not go away. Because he would be unchanged.
The white relationship with blacks used to be nakedly abusive: it featured whips and chains and rapes and cutting off body parts and breaking up families. And later, hangings and bombings and never letting blacks forget that they were the lowest of low.
The abusive mindset remains. You can tell because in the American mainstream you hear plenty about black pathologies, but almost nothing about white pathologies. Just googling the phrases shows that it is 93.7% “black pathologies” to 6.3% “white pathologies”.
All our lives over and over again we hear all about what is wrong with black people. We have got so used to it that some expect me to do it too. Well, screw that. It is not the heart of the matter and, given how things are, it only feeds the racism – both white racism and internalized black racism.
Further, most pathologies are driven by white racism itself. (Though not all, such as illegitimacy.)
For example, here is the high school drop out rate (according to the 2000 census, leaving out Hispanics):
- 15.3% white
- 29.1% black
Compare that to Native Americans: 27.4%.
Or the poverty rate:
- 9.4% white
- 24.9% black
Compare that to Native Americans: 25.1%.
Or median personal income:
- $23,600 white
- $16,300 black
Compare that to Native Americans: $14,400.
How odd.
How odd that Native Americans should have none of the black pathologies and yet have all the bad that goes with it in terms of poverty, low income and high school drop out rates.
How odd that the poverty rate is almost the same as the high school drop out rate for blacks and Native Americans – but, strangely, not for whites.
How odd that it is whites who are the ones with a long and ugly history of racism against blacks and Natives – and they are also the ones who run most of the schools and do most of the hiring.
How odd that whites say they are over racism and yet are uncomfortable talking about it.
How odd that people want me to be more “even handed” and find more fault with blacks and less with whites.
– Abagond, 2011.
See also:
Abagond 
It is interesting to see that in the map above, ‘white’ is left out. Seems to be the same way when it comes to cities reporting crimes in their urban or suburban areas.
Very selective, no?
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The way the map left out “white” I thought it must have been from some right-wing think tank – but no, it is from the government.
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Living in part of the Appalachians, you do see the stark contrast in regards to poverty, especially since POC’s aren’t exactly prominent though they do exist in the region. I just learn to ignore the stuff, unless what I’m actually seeing isn’t true!
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I have to give your blog a lot of credit for helping me to understand just how sick white Americans are. And just in case I need to spell it out for anyone: it’s not genetics that makes white Americans sick. They’re not born that way. But supremacy is so built into their social institutions that they learn to value whites above all others. I knew before your blog that whites are racist, but I still didn’t see that they are the sick ones and if you take away their issues, a lot would be cleared up for those they have oppressed.
I used to think blacks were as infested with racism against blacks as whites, but that’s not true either. Even the most assimilated black person knows there is a problem with whites and racism and it isn’t our fault. A lot of whites don’t know that.
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Abagond:
Black people shouldn’t make the simple complex!
God gave everybody a brain, it’s up to all of us to use it. I don’t believe in excuses, and that’s what a lot of us indulge in, Excuses! Yes, slavery screwed a lot of us up, but it doesn’t justify all of the bulls**t that’s taking place among our people at this time.
Crime Inc.
Hip-Hop Inc.
Sports Inc.
Free Aquarius
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I’m more of the mind that an abusive relationship is never solved by focusing ONLY on the actions of the abuser.
The victim or the abuse, is so often an enabler of their own abuse, based on their internal self-image issues. In fact, one must often begin with the question:
“Do you feel that you somehow deserve this kind of treatment?”
Little can be fixed if the victim doesn’t begin to deal with their inferiority issues, as well.
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@agabond: well done, and good to point out that how native americans are doin.
Reason why whites do not say same things about the natives than they say about blacks? They are still scared the injuns, after all, those feather heads can crawl around at night scalping the pioneers and settlers if provoked too much!! 😀
The map speaks out loud: black rural poor areas are there where they where 160 years ago too. How about that?
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@King
Agreed. I suppose people who were grown up in an abusive family sort of carry on the “sins of their fathers”. Or mothers.
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The thing about abusive husband analogy… People DON’T focus on the wife, they do focus on the abuser. But the ABUSER himself is the one who focuses on the wife. (Of course I had beat you up, the dinner was cold!)
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Being a member of a minority, especially black in the USA, in most Western countries you have exactly one chance (at best). If you screw up once, you’re basically screwed for the rest of your life.
Well connected people, who are usually white males, tend to always fall back onto their feet even after a high drop. They can mess up and stand back up, unless they have actively contributed in making themselves too many enemies.
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There is no mistaking that “black pathology” has its origins in racism. There’s just absolutely no denying that and I have little patience for anyone who tries to argue on this point. You analogy of white racism against blacks as an abusive husband was spot on. I can’t say how many times I have heard angry whites say that if blacks would deal with their pathology then racism would recede.
Oh really? You can be the most upstanding citizen and still experience virulent racism. It doesn’t matter how good you are or how far you climb as a black person, racism is still there. Ask President Obama. Black pathology is merely an excuse for racists to keep on doing what they have been. Of course, the black community is no more perfect than anyone else, but pointing fingers about how messed up we are, while ignoring the own mote in their eye is self-serving bull crap and black people need to recognize this.
Now that being said, I also have little patience for blacks who want to deny the problems in our community that we can do something about or blame their own failure to do what’s right on the white man.
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@King & Hannu.
While agreeing with you both on resolving issues with the abused and the abuser. It should be apparent when focusing in this way these two issues become intricately tied together. Therefore it would be shorted sighted in terms pf policy analysis to focus just on one part in exclusion to the other. Clearly both parts need to be studied and addressed.
Yet this is precisely what posts like this from Abagond highlight. Attention always appears to be skewed in one direction. In the case of so called Black pathologies its Black people. Yes… By all means have the discussion about why so many Black people appear to be caught up in perceived negative social and economic disorders.
But if you are also not prepared to focus the same attention discussing the perceived causes, (i.e racism and its effects on both the abuser and the abused) then you are either being disingenuous or not really serious.
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Well Kwamla, perhaps it doesn’t always have to be a case of airing out “Black pathology” but rather one of emphasizing Black power to escape the ongoing effects of the majority cultural pathology.
Sometimes the best course of action is to get the victim to own their own power to change the situation.
-You don’t have to accept this treatment
-The idea that you deserve this is a lie.
-You have other options now
-You will not be truly free until you YOU can let go of the abuse
-You need to change the things that you can change, beginning with yourself
The victim and their head game is the biggest part of escaping the abuse cycle because the abuser is often reluctant to change their ways since they are not the ones being directly hurt by them.
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“Being a member of a minority, especially black in the USA, in most Western countries you have exactly one chance (at best). If you screw up once, you’re basically screwed for the rest of your life.
Well connected people, who are usually white males, tend to always fall back onto their feet even after a high drop. They can mess up and stand back up, unless they have actively contributed in making themselves too many enemies.”
Right on, Femi.
This goes well with a blog I wrote last year about the privilege having a mindset of almost never blaming themselves for the stuff they’ve done to lesser or non privilege people, but will blame them for the problems in society. If you want, you can check it out here:
http://willcapersblaqueink.blogspot.com/2010/11/privilege-mindset.html
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Abagond:
“Sista Love” Is What The World Wants, “Brotha Love Is What The World Needs.”
* Blackmen who don’t love themselves create blackwomen who hate them.
* Blackwomen who hate themselves create black babies who hate their mothers.
* Black babies who hate themselves create black babies who hate them.
* Blackmen who don’t love and respect blackwomen can do harm to blackwomen.
* Blackwomen and their needs and wants come first.
* Black Love is the greatest love, The Best Love.
* Sista Love is the sweetest love, Taste It.
* Brotha Love is the strongest love, Embrace It.
Don Aquarius
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Abagond, I agree with your sentiments but not with your focus because I don’t think you can talk whites out of being abusive just like an abused woman can’t reason with her abusive husband to stop abusing her.
I believe that Blacks have to change what they can and they can change a lot.
Why do so many Black men do things that get them incarcerated? Why do they just walk into the trap?
Why do so many Black women have sex with men who they know won’t stick by them or marry them if they get pregnant?
I’m not trying to be judgmental, but if there’s a Black man reading this who walked into that kind of trap, why did you do it? Didn’t you know that was going to happen? If you’re a Black woman who has OOW kids, didn’t you know that your baby daddy was not going to stick by you? How could you not know that?
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Femi: “Being a member of a minority, especially black in the USA, in most Western countries you have exactly one chance (at best). If you screw up once, you’re basically screwed for the rest of your life.”
Will and Femi, the problem with the implications of your similar statements, aside from their anecdotal and apocryphal nature, is that most white people are not the rich elite.
Poetess: I can’t say how many times I have heard angry whites say that if blacks would deal with their pathology then racism would recede.
Perhaps you can explain exactly how white people are preventing poor african-american parents with underachieving children from enforcing an early curfew, monitoring their kids’ schoolwork, and demanding academic success.
The children of african and asian immigrants seem to experience significantly less of this dis-empowering “racism” even when attending the exact same schools.
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@Randy Garver —
Perhaps you can explain exactly how white people are preventing poor african-american parents with underachieving children from enforcing an early curfew, monitoring their kids’ schoolwork, and demanding academic success.
Most of the time, African American children only have 1 parent present. Most of the time, African and Asian children have 2 parents present.
This is the reason I asked any Black OOW mothers that question. I don’t ask Black men here why they don’t stay with their children because I don’t want to become embroiled in a never ending back and forth.
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I agree with this point. I had this very conversation about why it is blacks are picked on but not Native Americans or Hispanics (some are attacked). The general assumption is that NA are sacred and there aren’ t that many of them.
In Canada, NAs make up the largest prison population in some areas, especially up north. No one wants to address the reasons why, and it’s really a disservice to NAs because no one cares about the issues affecting them, and their issues, like alcoholism and rape, which are the highest for any ethnic group and kill most of them, are overshadowed by talks of black pathologies.
Anyway, I hardly meet any black person who doesn’t think black pathologies are serious; and, if and when I do, I usually take these people to task, especially if they try to justify these pathologies and refuse to take responsiblity for them.
The point is: many black people know about these issues already, and repeating them to them is pointless. I had someone sent me an entire article about black crimes out of the blue when I inquired about the racist nature of a website, and I had to re-email the person to inquire why. As if I needed an education about the “problems” of black people.
Obsidian should start his own blog if he wants to discuss this issue frequently. But, from experience, he’ll only lead himself into frustration and possible self-hatred, since POINTING out black crime doesn’t help solve them.
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jorbia asks:
“Why do so many Black men do things that get them incarcerated? Why do they just walk into the trap?”
Let me pose this scenario, which is factual (abbreviated, yes, but true):
A 32-year-old black man was fatally shot by police after failing to activate his turn signal 200 yards before an intersection (which many people do on a daily basis, but he was singled out for DWB). He was shot after the police stopped him; they claimed he was reaching for a gun after they asked for his license and registration, but found that he was unarmed.
Please tell me, exactly, what crime was committed that required the death penalty right then and there?
For that matter, do you really feel that justice is meted out equitably? Do you feel that a white man should only get 5 months for cocaine possession, while a black man should get 5 years and a felony record for marijuana possession?
I’m very curious…
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@ Randy
You have to understand that the cause and effect is complex. It’s a cumulative effect based on a long-term and systematically applied racist ideology.
That doesn’t mean that Black people don’t contribute to the problem as well, but the largest part of the problem has been hundreds of years of oppression that has caused all kinds of long-term issues within our community.
You’re essentially asking why the rape victim is having trouble years after the rape… I mean no one’s raping you right now, so what’s the problem?
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BUT, all that being said, there are a LOT of things that we as Black people can do to vastly improve our own community/culture also.
That doesn’t mean that ALL oppression will instantly cease, but we can stop the problems that we make for ourselves.
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“You’re essentially asking why the rape victim is having trouble years after the rape… I mean no one’s raping you right now, so what’s the problem?”
brilliant! I’m totally gonna use that!
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@sepultura13–
Let me pose this scenario, which is factual (abbreviated, yes, but true):
A 32-year-old black man was fatally shot by police after failing to activate his turn signal 200 yards before an intersection . . .
While this is very tragic, are most Black men in prison for not activating their turn signal or something trivial like that? I think this is one reason why Black people don’t usually try to talk about this topic honestly with each other. The minute we might try, another Black person usually comes up with a far-fetched scenario. What exactly is that about?
Honestly, I think you brought this up to get sympathy from white people and make them feel bad, but what you don’t seem to understand is that most white people don’t care enough to feel bad enough to do anything to stop it, even if they can. Why do so many Black people waste so much energy trying to get White people to feel bad? Is the little bit of guilt a decent white person might feel even worth it? Couldn’t we use that time and energy in much better ways?
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Why do so many Black men do things that get them incarcerated? Why do they just walk into the trap?
Why do so many Black women have sex with men who they know won’t stick by them or marry them if they get pregnant?
The racists would say it’s because blacks are dumb and impulsive. Black men, thanks to high testosterone and low IQs, are quick to commit crimes and black females, thanks to high testosterone which gives them a higher sex drive, are more into casual sex than other females. That’s what racists would say.
The real answer is one that has eluded me for years. I do think low self-esteem is a factor. As a black person, who is kind of an outsider, I have observed that it appears many black [Americans] have internalized negativity.
I mentioned in another post how ‘blackness’ is defined by ‘street life,’ ghettos or inner cities, Ebonics, soul food, etc. Many black [Americans] have embraced these things and have justified them as culture, but these things are negatives. Soul food, for example, leads to high cholesterol, heart attacks, high blood pressure and obesity for blacks. Ebonics is poorly constructed English sentences, or illiteracy. The n-word, contrary to white belief and despite its use among rappers, has never been a term of endearment, and even among blacks it has been used as a form of insult to put blacks in their place; yet, it’s embraced by blacks. Calling black persons the n-word is pretty much calling them worthless low-lives (which by the way, is the term the drug dealers in the book Freakonomics use to describe themselves–not black or African Americans, but nggrs.)
This internalization of negativity, coupled with low-expectations and a generally “relaxed” or non-fussy attitude among blacks, seems to be what drives these young blacks to do these stupid things. They truly believe it’s practicing “their culture” to be thugs, for example. In Freakonomics, again, there is a black drug dealer mentioned who had an MBA but who left his corporate job to work as a drug kingpin because he felt out-of-place in the corporate world.
FACTORS:
low self-esteem
low social expectations
Cultural embrace of negative things
Misplaced anger/hate
Stupidity
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@sepultura13–
For that matter, do you really feel that justice is meted out equitably? Do you feel that a white man should only get 5 months for cocaine possession, while a black man should get 5 years and a felony record for marijuana possession?
I’m very curious…
But don’t we already know that justice is not blind? Justice and power go hand in hand. If you don’t have the power to force justice, then it will only be sporadic at best. This is the case throughout the world. Your question is so common. Why do so many Black people keep going back over what we already know? It’s like we never reach the point of saying, “Well, we know we can’t count on equal justice, so let’s dig deep within ourselves and each other and see how we can get power because with power, we can demand and receive more justice.”
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The illegitimate children problem is interesting, because I don’t see it as a “black thing” at all. There are so many out of wedlock pregnancies in my culture. Some end up as abortions- many, in fact (I think it’s due to cultural differences and the different approach to abortion), but there are many. It’s definitely not a bad thing. Black guys might not like to wear condoms, but guess what?, white guys are no different in that department. <- Which is a horrible and embarrassing thing altogether, for everybody.
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@ jorbia
no no no no no.
Let me tell you a story that isn’t so far fetched.
When I was in my late teens/early 20’s I was a bit reckless. I drove without a license and missed a few court dates related to getting caught.
I have a friend who is black and did the exact same thing as I did around the same time in the same city. Only he got in way more trouble. His fines were way, way higher than mine because he got pulled over more often. So high in fact that he still has never been able to get his license reinstated. He still can’t drive a car. I only had 2 pay around $800
So here you have two teenage boys. Equally as stupid and irresponsible. One black and one white. Yet the white boy suffers way less for the exact same crime as the black boy.
Things like that have a cumulative effect.
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@ Mel–
The racists would say it’s because blacks are dumb and impulsive. Black men, thanks to high testosterone and low IQs, are quick to commit crimes and black females, thanks to high testosterone which gives them a higher sex drive, are more into casual sex than other females. That’s what racists would say.
Well, the racists prove how dumb they are for saying that because it’s only certain blacks in some parts of the world who do these things. If they occurred due to their being Black, it would occur everywhere there are Black people.
The n-word, contrary to white belief and despite its use among rappers, has never been a term of endearment, and even among blacks it has been used as a form of insult to put blacks in their place; yet, it’s embraced by blacks. Calling black persons the n-word is pretty much calling them worthless low-lives
I cannot believe how some Blacks argue to defend and hold on to that disgusting term.
Honestly, I don’t think these issues are so complex. I think they’re fairly simple, actually. It matters a lot how a problem is viewed. Sometimes, when I hear a Black person say something breathtakingly stupid, I wonder why someone doesn’t just tell them how retarded they sound. People in other groups can’t get away with saying things like that. When they are quickly challenged, this causes them to get smarter or get quiet. No one forces Black people to get smart or get quiet.
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@ jas0nburns
I have a friend who is black and did the exact same thing as I did around the same time in the same city. Only he got in way more trouble.
But the reason why you got off light is because you belong to a group who has much more power. It has to do with power. People are not going to give up their power simply because you whack them on the hand and say “bad boy.”
I want to be around Blacks who understand the connection between power and justice. You would think that Black people in America would understand that better than anyone and would decide without any excuses that they will acquire power. I’m a Black woman and I don’t understand at all why so many Blacks focus so much on Whites and not on pressuring Blacks to do what they need to do to get into a more powerful position. Whites may change a little, but they’re not going to change much because what do they have to gain? Black people have a lot to gain from changing, so it would seem they would pour all of their energy into changing each other.
Things like that have a cumulative effect.
Only if you allow that to happen. It’s not worth anything to a Black person to just stand back and allow all of that to accumulate inside them or other Blacks, so why do they so readily allow it? I think they do it because they want to make White people feel their pain. It’s like killing yourself to make your lover feel depressed for hurting your feelings.
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Mira:The illegitimate children problem is interesting, because I don’t see it as a “black thing” at all.
A recent study revealed the following percentages of out-of-wedlock births:
72% : Black
66% : Native American
53% : Hispanic
29% : White
17% : Asian
Is anyone surprised that income, educational achievement, and crime rates all order themselves according to this list? The endemic breakdown of traditional families appears to underpin most broad social ills.
King:“You’re essentially asking why the rape victim is having trouble years after the rape… I mean no one’s raping you right now, so what’s the problem?”
That’s not a relevant example, since we’re not talking about the same person. The kids of today are generations removed from those who faced down police dogs and fire hoses.
But the broader point is, what good is brought by this so-called “anti-racism”? It feeds no one, educates no one, offers no one a job, and encourages no one to develop dreams and to sacrifice as they work towards them.
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@Randy Garver–
But the broader point is, what good is brought by this so-called “anti-racism”? It feeds no one, educates no one, offers no one a job, and encourages no one to develop dreams and to sacrifice as they work towards them.
I agree. I wish some Whites would just say to Blacks, “Well, yes we are racist and always will be. So now, what are you going to do to us?”
Blacks have been able to force most Whites to hide their overt racism, but like you asked what good has that actually done Blacks? Apparently very little. There has only been a tiny amount of real progress for most Blacks in America and even that could be reversed at any moment at the whims of Whites because Blacks have not worked to lay the foundation to acquire power.
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@ jorbia
“But the reason why you got off light is because you belong to a group who has much more power. It has to do with power. People are not going to give up their power simply because you whack them on the hand and say “bad boy.”
I know. Whites will have power as long as we are the majority.
But I kind of feel like most of the negative effects of racism are due to whites self-imposed ignorance and isolation from POC. I think the power would have a less negative effect if it wasn’t wielded. We don’t HAVE to always cast ourselves as the hero, or assume all black people listen to hip-hop and can’t read etc. I have the power to beat the crap out of my kid if I want that doesn’t mean I do it. And the fact that I don’t do it makes it a non-issue.
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Blacks have been able to force most Whites to hide their overt racism, but like you asked what good has that actually done Blacks?
I sometimes think of race-obsessed blacks as overgrown children trying to hurt their parents (whites) by crossing their arms, thrasing the house. It’s almost as if blacks want whites to a) admit they’re racist and b) say they’re sorry. But, I don’t think this will do them any good–it won’t improve their conditions.
The misplaced anger that blacks, and afrocentrics particularly, have towards whites is energy, time and effort wasted.
I am firm believer of blacks taking responsibility for their actions and not blaming white people. Blaming whites have never helped blacks and it never will.
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That’s not a relevant example, since we’re not talking about the same person. The kids of today are generations removed from those who faced down police dogs and fire hoses.
@ Randy
Actually it’s quite relevant.
You see, when you implant the idea, in a large and identifiable group of people that they are worthless, ignorant, incapable, and beholding, the resulting fallout is GENERATIONAL.
When you make it impossible for Black men to achieve and excel, like other men, and make them to appear less in the eyes of their families, you begin a group psychology that may take decades to repair.
When you purposely and universally undereducate an entire class of people and bar them from attending schools with state troops, and policemen, then you start a problem the echos forward to into the grandchildren of the those kept purposefully ignorant.
The problem is, that you just don’t know a rape when you see one.
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@jasOnburns–
I know. Whites will have power as long as we are the majority.
It’s not a matter of being the majority. Whites constitute a minority of people in the world. Whites have the power because they did certain things to get massive power and they now do certain things to keep it. So, their power is not by virtue of greater numbers. Many whites in leadership or wealthy Whites do certain thing that wealthy Blacks or those in leadership don’t do. I really want Blacks to think about that. It’s not a mystery how groups get and keep power. The issue is why is it that Blacks don’t do these things. It has nothing to do with intelligence in the way that most people think about intelligence.
I think the power would have a less negative effect if it wasn’t wielded.
But why would Whites do all they do to get and keep power, then not wield it? They pay a price for getting and having the power, so I’m not holding my breath expecting them not to use it.
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@King–
You see, when you implant the idea, in a large and identifiable group of people that they are worthless, ignorant, incapable, and beholding, the resulting fallout is GENERATIONAL.
But if we’re going to dig deeper and we do have to do this at some point, we have to ask why haven’t Blacks in any part of the world implanted these ideas in the minds of Whites to subjugate them? why are Blacks worldwide always done unto?
When you make it impossible for Black men to achieve and excel, like other men, and make them to appear less in the eyes of their families, you begin a group psychology that may take decades to repair.
What about the tens or hundreds of millions of Black men in Africa? They weren’t subjected to chattel slavery. They kept their culture. Yet so many Africans are leaving their countries fleeing to White lands. We really do have to dig deeper. But I know that Blacks like to keep the focus on Whites. If all Whites were to disappear tomorrow, Blacks would still have to deal with whatever it is that prevents us from taking charge of our destiny.
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jorbia
“and they now do certain things to keep it”
Like what?
I admit I may be missing something here so I apologize if that’s the case, I don’t mean to be obtuse.
let’s say a powerful white exec is doing some hiring and he doesn’t hire a qualified black applicant. Is it because he want’s to keep all the power and jobs for whites? Or is it because he doesn’t know any black people and so believes the stereotypes.
I know the effect is the same either way but if we’re talking about taking power or nullifying it I think it matters.
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Obsidian had an excellent blog talking about some if these pathologies, unfortunately, it was shut down.
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Black pathologies are talked about/thrown in our faces, thats why many blacks shy away from talking about it. That and it provides ammo to racists looking to justify their worldview.
However I do agree with King. Blacks( anyone really) have to do what we can to improve our lot. A lot of blacks use racism ect as an excuse for personal failings. One of the most damaging things to happen to the BC is the breakdown of th house hold, that has very little to do with racism, IMO.
If white racism is the reason for the stagnation of black progress in America white people are the last group we should be appealing to for help/recognition of the problem. Blacks can not and do not control racist whites’ thoughts/actions but we can control our personal decisions.
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Internalized racism and self-hate is a big problem for blacks. It causes blacks to make problems for themselves as well as to perpetuate ignorance, poverty and anti-black thinking among themselves and others. We don’t even need white people to mess things up for the black community, we will do it ourselves.
what needs to happen is that black people need to just deal with themselves rather than bothering with white people. white people have put themselves on a pedestal and bullied everyone else into doing so as well whether they realize it or not. We worry more about an infrequent white-on-black violent hate crime than we do about the daily black-on-black shootings, rapes, thefts, beatings, etc that take place. Yes, white people are frequently ingratiating, but now that we realize that nothing can be done about this, we must focus our energy on rebuilding and repairing damaged black psyches rather than trying to enlighten whites. this is the starting point. We must deal with ourselves before we try to deal with others.
Also, white people are a minority worldwide and whites in many advanced countries are procreating at lower and lower rates. Civilizations and superpowers rise and fall, so unless white people start popping out 5 babies a piece or slaughtering minorities on a massive scale I doubt a white controlled power structure will last much longer. Take comfort in that if anything.
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What about the tens or hundreds of millions of Black men in Africa? They weren’t subjected to chattel slavery. They kept their culture.
Well that’s a pretty large assumption. Are you supposing that the “tens or hundreds of millions of Black men in Africa” are ALL messed up? Are they such a bad example that we can simply point to Africa and shrug our shoulders? What is the divorce rate of Africa anyway? What is the poverty rate? What is even going on in Africa today?
In many ways, Africans seem more dedicated to solving their own problems than many African-Americans.
I give you Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala
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Randy Garver said:
“But the broader point is, what good is brought by this so-called “anti-racism”? It feeds no one, educates no one, offers no one a job, and encourages no one to develop dreams and to sacrifice as they work towards them.”
At a personal level, the point is to free your mind of the lies that society is built on. I know that few whites have any interest in that but for people of colour they have to understand what is going on because otherwise they will think that there is something wrong with themselves (internalized racism). That in turn can lead to self-doubt or worse.
It is not about getting white people to change, at least not in the short term. Very much like husbands who beat their wives, they have an extremely hard time taking a cold, hard honest look at themselves and admitting that there is anything wrong. Instead they make a thousand and one excuses. Even something as clear-cut and long ago as slavery they have a hard time condemning flat-out as evil.
More:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/20/why-i-write-about-racism/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/
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Hey Agabond. This is Will, now known as Blaque Ink.
I’ve been thinking about this blog and the comments that proceeded it. Here’s what I think:
As a reply to Randy’s statement it doesn’t boil down to wealth or the assumption that most white people (in this nation) is rich. It boils down to privilege for having white skin. You can be a poor white person, and STILL have more privileges than middle and upper class blacks.
I agree, to a point, with what Jorbia is saying. Basically, it comes down to the realization that whites really don’t give a damn about the health and welfare of blacks. Afterall, whites have proven time and time again that they don’t know and don’t want to know what racism truly is and how much it hurts blacks. They prefer to live in their own matrix and not have to deal with their pathology. So, some have taken up the task to save, rebuild, and uplift their communities through any means available
Part of the blaming whites mantra come from always reminded that they are still in power and still have numerous privileges that nonwhites don’t have. We’re also reminded of how they feel about us, and we hear excuse after excuse from them of why they’re not to be blamed.
This is by no means saying that blaming whites will solve our problems. Blame is not effective in any situation especially when you know’s to blame, and when the person or people you blame could care less.
Another part comes from years upon years of oppression at the hands of whites and still suffering from it in a myriad of ways mostly because it still continues in a covert fashion.
Finally, some blacks still, in some aspects, hold whites in high regard and blacks in low regard due to the sickness and trauma of internalized oppression. It’s difficult to ovecome as “whiteness” is celebrated everywhere in this nation and beyond.
In short we are fighting a war on two fronts; we fight against the monstrous white supremacist system and we fight against the depression hidden within us, killing us slowly. It’s not about saving our communities from within, but also trying to resist and avoid the system that wants to destroy it. Some consider one more important than the other, but I think they both deserve attention AND solutions
All in all, life as a black person in this country is a struggle internally and externally.
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Randy Garver said:
“A recent study revealed the following percentages of out-of-wedlock births:
72% : Black
66% : Native American
53% : Hispanic
29% : White
17% : Asian
Is anyone surprised that income, educational achievement, and crime rates all order themselves according to this list? The endemic breakdown of traditional families appears to underpin most broad social ills.”
Right, except that the same thing was said of blacks in the 1960s – that their high rate of illegitimacy was holding them back, that it was one of their pathologies.
Back then the black illegitimacy rate was 26%. The white rate is now higher than that – but I do not hear anyone calling it a pathology, that it “appears to underpin most broad social ills”. No. But when blacks do it, it is a pathology. Why is that?
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@ jas0nburns
That’s an important point. It is probably a mix of the two and the truth is somewhere in between.
However it wouldn’t be a surprise if the reason an exec gives to not hire a black applicant is that a black person he hired in the past made one mistake that caused losses for the company. Along the lines of “I didn’t hire him out of bad past experience”.
At the same time though, there are countless cases of white people who make detrimental mistakes in their jobs all the time but a white applicant will always get at least the benefit of the doubt.
Minorities are often regarded as one big bunch of “clones” whereas a member of the majority is usually seen as an individual.
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@jorbia:
“But if we’re going to dig deeper and we do have to do this at some point, we have to ask why haven’t Blacks in any part of the world implanted these ideas in the minds of Whites to subjugate them? why are Blacks worldwide always done unto?”
Why an earth blacks should do the same that the whites have done? To be as dumb?? To subjugate them? For what? Why? Revenge??
Second: the myth that blacks are down and out all over the world is justa myth. It is spoon fed to you by the same racist tradition that keep american blacks down. You don’t believe me? Well, ask Will Smith, Jay Z, Obama or some other black guy who has made it in USA. 😀 They have made it despite the chant “Black are down and our all over the world and why is that if not by their own fault?”.
Blacks are running Africa now a days. They have done so for few decades ago. Granted, they could have done better, but that is greed, capitalism and such for you, not race or skin color.
So don’t believe that idea that blacks have been are down and out around the world because they are un able to fix their lot. That is a racist idea spoon fed you by the racist tradition: ” Why else blacks would be on the bottom of every society in the world unless it is not their own fault?”. You dig? 😀
“Yet so many Africans are leaving their countries fleeing to White lands.”
So? There are millions of chinese leavin their country for White lands. Indians. Arabs. Latinos. This and that. People are moving around the globe. It is easier than ever. And do not forget that just a hunderd years ago millions of europeans were leaving White lands for all kinds of lands like USA, Australia, South America and yes, even Africa!!
I think the only way forward for the black americans is these two: get rid of the race concept and education.
Yes, I know it is difficult and hard and there is resistance but just keep on doing it. Refuse to be just “blacks”, be americans Period. Insist it. Demand it. Be it. Day in, day out. All day all night. Most black americans have far older family trees in USA than whites who immigrated in the late 1800’s early 1900’s by millions. I bet more black families have older roots in USA than most white families. Tell that to those who still treat you as almost foreigners or aliens! 😀 Whose american and whose not??
Education is important. Just before WW2 Finland was poor agrarian land with majority of the people studying little more than first four school grades. And now?? After the WW2 education was raised up as an national importance and it shows.
But that is only one part of it. Education means also the ability to educate one self, it means ability to learn more, to be critical, to be active member in society, it means more knowledge and more abilities to better ones life. I know that many black school districts in USA are suffering from low funding. That should be prepared. But still, the importance of education is essential for any class, community or country for that matter to better itself. This should be number one priority for the black communities arcoss USA.
And really, next time somebody white tells you that you are a “black” you correct them: “No, I am an AMERICAN who happens to look like this. Just like you look like that.”
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And yeah, I know I am a white european saying all this 😀 And yes, I know that I do not know everything about being black in US. And no, I’m not thinking that I have the answers or know better than black americans. 😀 These were just my thoughts. That is all. Being an old long haired freak myself.
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@Mira
Of course it is not a black thing. There was a documentary on the BBC about absent fathers presented by Alisha Dixon, it didn’t focus on race at all.
She even interviewed “Britan’s worst dad” a man who goes around sexing women without a condom, sometimes he lied to them that he put them on when he didn’t becasue sex without one feels so much better. SO he has impregnated women all over they had a number it was duouble digit but I think it could be higher.
Now does he take car of his offsprings no becasue he “can’t be bothered” he is unemplyed, lives with his mother and spends his days smoking. And he is white btw.
@Will Capers
they nice summary
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@King–
Well that’s a pretty large assumption. Are you supposing that the “tens or hundreds of millions of Black men in Africa” are ALL messed up?
I agree with a lot of your points in this thread and in many others on this site, but I’m frowning at the “ALL” tactic you have used to discount what I’ve said. Of course, not ALL of any group is off balance. It doesn’t take ALL to lift up or mess up any group.
What I’m suggesting is that Blacks closely examine the Black situation worldwide, and think more deeply about themselves. If we don’t do that, then the solutions we come up with will waste our time and may turn out to be worse than the problem or not help at all. I’m suggesting that Blacks research and study their functioning for the sole purpose of improving our functioning vs trying to write books and articles to make Whites feel bad. Most of the Black intelligentsia seems to be focused on doing just that. That’s a huge waste of their energies.
Are they such a bad example that we can simply point to Africa and shrug our shoulders? What is the divorce rate of Africa anyway? What is the poverty rate? What is even going on in Africa today?
I’m not saying they’re such a bad example and I’m not saying we should shrug our shoulders. Those would be blanket assessments and useless.
I’m saying that on the surface, Africans have in abundance what many say that African Americans need but don’t have, yet Africans still have widespread crippling, deadly problems.
Generally comparing the two groups– Africans have immense, rich natural resources, including land; African Americans have none. Africans have their cultures, languages, traditions that have never been discontinued; African Americans were deprived from continuing all of these. Africans still largely have intact and flourishing nuclear and extended families; African Americans have relatively none. Africans have a relative low divorce rate; African Americans have a high divorce and never-married rate; African men are still “in charge” of and lead the households, communities, societies and women there “stay in their place” and look up to the men; this is not the case among African Americans. African women mostly have pride in their appearance and like the way they look; African American women mostly do not. African men mostly support their children; African American men largely do not, and so on.
The point I’m making is that something else is going on among Blacks that causes us to under-achieve throughout the world. I don’t believe it has anything to do with I.Q. and very little to do with Whites.
In many ways, Africans seem more dedicated to solving their own problems than many African-Americans.
Well, considering their immense resources, wouldn’t you expect for them to be vastly more adept at solving their problems? So far, that vast adeptness has not appeared. Comparing African social system functioning to that of African Americans is like comparing Warren Buffet’s assets to that of a homeless man’s. Why would anyone even compare the two or expect the performance of the two to be on the same page or even in the same book.
Africans vastly underachieve in their rich, resource-filled homelands and with their largely intact familial systems and traditions. Why? I know people will say that Whites implanted feelings of inferiority in Africans too in order to easily colonize them, but my question remains: why didn’t the Africans do something similar to Whites?
I’m going out on a limb here, but I believe that there are endemic personality traits that predate interaction with Whites and span Black cultures. These traits feed Black man underachievement and dysfunction. These traits have lasted for some reason. In my opinion, two of these traits are the pompousness, inflexibility, or ego-drives of many Black men. I see this in my family and among Black men everywhere. Whereas the White men I’ve interacted with, read about, and observed will mostly listen, pretend to be meek, and “stoop to conquer,” if necessary, Black men mostly refuse to listen, even when the insanity of their ways leads to no progress or death for them and others in their group. This is why I think Black people need to study themselves.
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@ Sam–
Why an earth blacks should do the same that the whites have done? To be as dumb?? To subjugate them? For what? Why? Revenge??
I’m saying that Blacks need to study themselves to figure out why they’re constantly subjugated and outmaneuvered by other groups, whether Arabs, Whites, or whoever. I’ve read that the Chinese are now in West Africa and in other parts there too, and some are already saying that’s the next group that will subjugate the Africans. Blacks continue to wail about being the oppressed. I’m just saying they need to figure out why these other groups can so easily subjugate them. Blacks have to be pressured to take responsibility for most of this because they’re the ones who are suffering the most.
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Well Sam, I can respect the way, at least, you have the humility to admit it!!!
Whats wrong with being “American” and “Black American” at the same time? Isn’t this what white American’s do?
And while I am making this connection. Whats wrong with discussing “Black pathologies” in the wider context of white Racism and internalized Black/white self hate Racism?
Is it really that difficult for people comprehend holding two, apparently, conflicting concepts in their head?
Like being a nice white person and a racist?
Or being a pro Black person and a lover of interracial relationships?
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Jorbia – You’re getting far too caught up in your own personally experienced generalizations. Its really beginning to show as you obviously have no real knowledge of the history of white supremacy, colonialism, neo-colonialism and basic ecomonics.
For some reason you are allowing your own personal experiences to dominate your world view. Its not as simply as the picture your trying to paint I am afraid!
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“Is it really that difficult for people comprehend holding two, apparently, conflicting concepts in their head?”
apparently.
@jorbia
“Blacks have to be pressured to take responsibility for most of this because they’re the ones who are suffering the most.”
That’s another thing. The group mentality. In my mind the only thing that has ever made BP a group is racism. WP treated BP like a separate group so they became one. Does that mean they should stay that way? That cohesion and group mentality may have served BP in the past but maybe it’s a double edged sword.
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jorbia
I’m saying that Blacks need to study themselves to figure out why they’re constantly subjugated and outmaneuvered by other groups, whether Arabs, Whites, or whoever. I’ve read that the Chinese are now in West Africa and in other parts there too, and some are already saying that’s the next group that will subjugate the Africans. Blacks continue to wail about being the oppressed. I’m just saying they need to figure out why these other groups can so easily subjugate them. Blacks have to be pressured to take responsibility for most of this
————————————————
I too agree with this position.
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Just a few words regarding Africa.
The African countries that are interesting mainly for the West, ie. rich in resources are held hostage by the world bank and foreign investors through debt. They are revolving around the vicious circle of the “paradox of plenty”. There’s too much to do for their own matters but too little investment in secondary and tertiary sectors. Most of the income from resources trickles away in the form of interests and payback, military and police (to secure the foreign investments) and not least bribes and financial mismanagement.
Imagine if you were sitting on a precious resource but had not enough money to mine it in an efficient and profitable manner. Try it yourself and quite possibly fail due to lack of experience? Let yourself being talked into credit and not being able to pay it back with the consequence of having to give much of your resource away for free? Sell your land? Do nothing?
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@Kwamla–
you obviously have no real knowledge of the history of white supremacy, colonialism, neo-colonialism and basic ecomonics.
I’m humble enough to admit that I don’t know enough. I’m still questionning, observing, and learning. But are you humble enough to admit that you don’t know enough either. It’s obvious that Blacks don’t know nearly enough. If they did, they wouldn’t have such crippling problems worldwide.
Blacks are unable to or don’t solve many of their internal problems and I’m suggesting that a very large portion of our focus needs to be inward to find out why, that is if there is to be any Black group.
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WP treated BP like a separate group so they became one. Does that mean they should stay that way? That cohesion and group mentality may have served BP in the past but maybe it’s a double edged sword.
This is true, but what to do now? The answer is pretty simple, actually: those who invented racism has to stop it.
They (whites) are the only ones who can do it. But they, in most part, are not interested in doing it.
So no, being colour blind won’t solve the problem. Nor advising black Americans to see themselves as “simply Americans” if whites don’t do the same.
Whites are the ones who can, and should end racism. They just don’t want to.
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Sorry for the grammar mistakes… I’m in a hurry.
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Jorbia, the temptation would be to recommend a bibliography of books on the European colonization of Africa. That would answer most of your questions.
But I can give you the nutshell version of it, and you can go further on your own, if you choose.
Basically, colonization was not always so different than slavery:
Wiki says:
“The so-called “vacant lands”—i.e. the land that was not directly used by the local tribes—fell to the state, who redistributed it to European companies, individual white landowners and missions… After the First World War the system of mandatory cultivation was introduced: Congolese peasants were forced to grow certain cash crops (cotton, coffee, groundnuts) destined for the European market.”
This kind of thing happened all over colonized Africa.
Do you start to see how these European comparisons about how Africa has not achieved is the rapist telling the rape victim that she is a whore?
But even beyond that, the way that modern African states where stitched together by the European powers was much like how the states of the middle east were created.
Countries were intentionally created with an element of instability by grouping together a coalition of enemies into a single country. In that way, it was easier to control people who historically hated each other even more than the newest oppressors. The Europeans colonizers further exacerbated these tensions by purposely favoring certain groups and encouraging misdeeds among rivals.
So what do you think happened when the Europeans finally pulled out? Do you think that all of the nurtured tensions just went away and healthy and productive countries emerged? Because they didn’t.
If Africa had been left to itself to naturally evolve it’s own states, the continent would be a much different place today.
That’s not to excuse the problems of African dictators, or corruption, or unjust wars… but it gives you some idea as to how the stage was set for such things to get out of control there.
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Funny that people complain all the time that African states have too many nationalities in them. I don’t see what the problem is. Diversity is strength , isn’t it?. We wouldn’t want to leave them with boring, non-vibrant states. They should thank us. Or does that apply only to white countries?
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@ Femi: Thanks for the explanation.
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I don’t see what the problem is.
I do. There are a lot, a lot of potential problems with multinational states.
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dav, You probably think that you’re pointing out a great irony and making a very smart point, but that’s only because you have rather low reasoning skills.
The point is not one of diversity, it’s the problem of taking several groups, that are at war and forcing them into a single country so that you can better control that country, while playing them off against each other.
Do you see how that has more in it then then just:
Diversity = Bad
Racial Putity = Good
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I get the impression that a lot of these issues don’t really apply to the POC that post here. If we’re just talking about the west it seems like there is some serious stratification going on. So much so that it’s almost a misnomer to call it black pathology. It’s really just a segment of the population that is dealing with most of this stuff no?
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@king: well said about Africa
@kwamla: well I try to be honest 😀
There is nothing wrong to be black and american, but if and when the white counterparts make that “black” the reason why you are not “real” american or why you are somehow “bad” american, I think you should tell those mofos to accept the fact that you are an american, period.
I’m not saying that you should pretend not to be black, what I am saying is that you should not let that be the reason to exclude you from the “mainstream”. Black americans are mainstream. Why they should be the Other in USA? I don’t know. I don’t think they should be. They are not that culturally or any other way other than race profiling, racism.
Ok, I admit, I am a lowsy hippie on this, but I have tried to see and take people as they are, not as a bunch of ethnic mass. It is not easy, I can tell you that, but for me that is the only way to fight against racism and race based abuse etc. I refuse to go along with any ethnic massings. For me you are you, not just “one of blacks”. I talk to you, I listen to you, I hear you, you make me think etc. Not some faceless voiceless Black.
I don’t know if this makes anything more clear, hope so. Peace! 😀
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Will (aka Blaque Ink) said:
“This goes well with a blog I wrote last year about the privilege having a mindset of almost never blaming themselves for the stuff they’ve done to lesser or non privilege people, but will blame them for the problems in society. If you want, you can check it out here:
http://willcapersblaqueink.blogspot.com/2010/11/privilege-mindset.html
“
Excellent post. I think Mr Garver is a textbook case of:
“4. They believe in the “bootstrap” myth that if one simply works hard, then they will succeed completely unaware of the structure of oppresion on certain groups.”
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@ Jas0n
The pathology in the Black community is often most identifiable only in the minority of Black people.
Even a number like 72% of Blacks children are born out out of wedlock simply means that (of those who are having children) Black women who are not married, have far more children (as a group) than those who are.
It does not even say that most Black people are having children out of wedlock—just that those who are produce more children than those who aren’t. A point often missed by dummies.
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@ King
I feel like you could probably go through all those stats and chop them up even more. Giving you a picture of 2 or 3 black Americas. with 1 section in particular fairing far worse than the other 2. You could do that with whites 2 of course but with us, nobody lumps all of us together like they do with blacks.
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Sam said:
“Ok, I admit, I am a lowsy hippie on this, but I have tried to see and take people as they are, not as a bunch of ethnic mass. It is not easy, I can tell you that, but for me that is the only way to fight against racism and race based abuse etc. I refuse to go along with any ethnic massings. For me you are you, not just “one of blacks”. I talk to you, I listen to you, I hear you, you make me think etc. Not some faceless voiceless Black.”
@sam:
Very well said! You have a very refreshing way of seeing things, as well as speaking your mind! 😎
When people ask me “So, what do you people want to be called nowadays?”, I’ll look at them and say, “Why, the same thing as you people or any one else – I prefer to be called by my name!” 😀
Being a victim isn’t in my vocabulary, attitude, or the way I live.
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jasOnburns–
That’s another thing. The group mentality. In my mind the only thing that has ever made BP a group is racism.
I agree with you, but racism or the privileges that go along with it for whites is the only thing that ever made Whites a group too. All those benefits. There is no such thing as “White” people or “Black” people. There were Europeans, there were Africans, and so on. I’ve taken elective courses in “Oppression and Third World Peoples” and from my readings, there was no such thing as “White” people until they created “Black” people as the “other,” or one of the main groups of others to be excluded from the goodies.
I don’t think that a lot of Whites are aware that they operate with a group mentality. A part of being White is not being aware that you are “White.” You probably just think that you are you.
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@ King–
That’s not to excuse the problems of African dictators, or corruption, or unjust wars… but it gives you some idea as to how the stage was set for such things to get out of control there.
Thanks for the history capsule, but I knew most of this. What I’m asking is what’s going to happen the next time this occurs to Blacks and the next time? People are always looking for cracks in every group to get in and divide, conquer, and benefit. Why were or are they so successful with Blacks as opposed to other groups? There are divisions in other groups too, but why is it that warring segments of most other groups are not so easily pitted against each other? All Whites don’t exactly love each other either, but why haven’t Blacks pitted European groups against each other? I’m just asking this to make a point, not suggesting that Blacks actually try to do this, even if they could.
I don’t know whether most Blacks want to exist as a group or whether they should. The fact is that if Blacks are going to prosper as a group, they’re going to have to become virtually immune to such divisive maneuvers. Most Blacks on this board are talking as if they want to retain a Black identity. If this is the case, this is why I think Blacks need to study themselves.
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@ jorbia
Right, but it goes without saying that WP need to end our group mentality. That it’s wrong. I’m not saying I’m optimistic that will happen but I know it’s a moral responsibility.
I suppose there would be no way for POC to do this unless whites did it first. Which is why we need to see how we are a group and how we behave as one.
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Because we are in the Age of the Northern Barbarians who, after Rome, first slipped backwards into medieval darkness but emerged into the European Renaissance, becoming the first globally dominant power group.
Right place, right time, right technology. But no group’s dominance lasts forever. There will be a second globally dominant group, and then another. I don’t know if they will be ethnic, national, or economic groups that dominate. We tend to think in terms of “race” as if the concept of “race” itself will last forever.
As for Why Colonizers where so successful with Blacks as opposed to others… talk to the Native Americans, or the Australian Aborigines, or the Hawaiians, of the Filipinos. The Blacks are not a special case, just the most familiar case. Other peoples are screwed too.
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Sam says,
“Ok, I admit, I am a lowsy hippie on this, but I have tried to see and take people as they are, not as a bunch of ethnic mass. It is not easy, I can tell you that, but for me that is the only way to fight against racism and race based abuse etc. I refuse to go along with any ethnic massings. For me you are you, not just “one of blacks”. I talk to you, I listen to you, I hear you, you make me think etc. Not some faceless voiceless Black.”
sepultura13 says,
Very well said! You have a very refreshing way of seeing things, as well as speaking your mind!
When people ask me “So, what do you people want to be called nowadays?”, I’ll look at them and say, “Why, the same thing as you people or any one else – I prefer to be called by my name!”
Being a victim isn’t in my vocabulary, attitude, or the way I live.
laromana says,
sam and sepultura 13,
Excellent comments.
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jorbia,
Watch your own behavior! If you want to be the moral arbiter of others. Make sure you don’t have sex out side of marriage, use condoms, find the perfect partner and make sure you are never be in a car or house that might have a traces of marijuana or touch money because it can put traces of cocaine on your hands. The latter I am sure you will have problems with because white folks are known to do more drugs than Black folk.
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Abagond:Back then the black illegitimacy rate was 26%. The white rate is now higher than that – but I do not hear anyone calling it a pathology, that it “appears to underpin most broad social ills”. No. But when blacks do it, it is a pathology. Why is that?
Actually, I think it’s a pathology for all groups. If you look at the recent PISA score results, the US turns out a lousy performance despite spending more money per pupil than any other country.
Why is that? Talk to teachers behind closed doors and many will tell you that the problem comes down to poor parenting. Intact families simply have more time and other resources to invest in their children than non-intact families.
Here are the recent PISA reading scores broken down by country, with US scores also listed by race:
http://bit.ly/dHS7qS
Once again, the order of achievement goes: asian, white, hispanic, black, which lines up squarely with the illegitimacy rate.
Coincidence?
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And hows Finland doing in the PISA?? 😀
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Randy:
Illegitimacy is often given as a black pathology, something that is holding blacks back, way more than any supposed white racism. But it does not hold up: black illegitimacy rates have gone through the roof at the very time there was a huge growth in the black middle class and absolute black IQ scores were going up. According to the black pathology model, blacks should be way worse off now than in the 1960s.
But black pathologists overlook all that. Because it is not about truly understanding Black America – it is about finding reasonable-sounding excuses for the racist set-up of American society. Something whites have been doing since at least the 1700s.
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@Hathor–
make sure you are never be in a car or house that might have a traces of marijuana or touch money because it can put traces of cocaine on your hands.
Are you claiming that most Black men are in prison because they had mere traces of marijuana or cocaine on their hands? Um–okay.
If you want to be the moral arbiter of others.
I asked questions and made comments that specifically relate to the topic of this thread: BLACK PATHOLOGY.
Make sure you don’t have sex out side of marriage, use condoms, find the perfect partner
After I asked those questions and made the comments yesterday, I was just waiting for someone to accuse me of something. 🙂 I knew I wouldn’t have that long to wait. Let the record show that this is exactly why some BAs (aside from Bill Cosby) don’t dare talk anymore about moral issues to other BAs.
I can’t help it if I know there are ways of drastically reducing the chances of getting pregnant. I also can’t help it if I know that there are ways of drastically increasing the chances of picking a good guy who will stick by your side. This doesn’t have to be like a crap shoot in the dark.
The latter I am sure you will have problems with because white folks are known to do more drugs than Black folk.
That reads like a dig at me for dating WM. I hope I misinterpreted that. Look at it this way. When I date WM, that makes there be more Black men available to Black women who only date Black men, doesn’t it. I’ll bet some BAW love that. In case that was a dig at me, I hope you’re an equal opportunity dig taker, so I’d like to see the digs you take at Black men who date White women?
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Yessss! and we’re back to interracial dating!
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@jason: 😀
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Abagond,
Illegitimacy is absolutely a black pathology, though certainly not an exclusive one.
The velocity of global competition is increasing. Westerners who wish to maintain or increase their standard of living will be competing with driven and educated workers from everywhere in the world. In fact, it’s happening this very minute.
People who allow themselves to curate the dusty mausoleums of past injustice at the expense of forward motion are consigning themselves and their progeny to a diminished future.
Aren’t you encouraging your readers to be constantly looking in the rear view mirror?
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“Illegitimacy is absolutely a black pathology, though certainly not an exclusive one.
The velocity of global competition is increasing. Westerners who wish to maintain or increase their standard of living will be competing with driven and educated workers from everywhere in the world. In fact, it’s happening this very minute.
People who allow themselves to curate the dusty mausoleums of past injustice at the expense of forward motion are consigning themselves and their progeny to a diminished future.
Aren’t you encouraging your readers to be constantly looking in the rear view mirror?”
Unfortunately it seems underclasses with high illegitimacy will be ubiquitous in the future as well. Not just black ones though. There are now Hispanics underclasses and you even see white ones forming in the US and UK.
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Notice that Randy and FG both sidestepped what I said about black illegitimacy. Which is just what I said they would do as black pathologists:
“But black pathologists overlook all that. Because it is not about truly understanding Black America – it is about finding reasonable-sounding excuses for the racist set-up of American society.”
Instead they just repeat their mantra in different words.
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I’m sure elevated rates of “pathology” are connected to past and present racism in some complex way. But I would not use that as an excuse for not taking proactive steps to resolve these difficulties. I said a while back that “white racism” and “black pathology” appear to feed off each other. If white people keep their prejudice in check, then there probably will be less of a black reactive subculture. On the other hand, if inner city crime rates were to decline, then white racism would likely ebb. This appears to be what has happened over the past 20 years or so. White people seem to be way less racist than they were even back in the ’80s and black crime has also dropped sharply since that time (though both are still significant problems).
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I like how Randy likes to couch his racist remarks in false concern.
Oh the mental gymnastics some will do to avoid facing their own racism.
The thing with this black pathology stuff is that it feeds into the stereotypes whites hold about blacks even though they don’t apply to the majority. And WP do the same sh*t anyway. Hell, a lot of those pathologies apply to ME personally, but nobody is going to look at me and just assume they do. I would have to tell them myself.
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Abagond:
Native American vs. Black pathologies. I doubt it is a conscious exclusion… Native Americans have little urban presence compared to Blacks. Journalists tend to live in urban areas and write about what is in front of them.
I would wager heavily that the person(s) who came up with the moniker “Southern Highlands” is left of center and not conservative.
I would bet that the out of wedlock births are more of a symptom than a cause of problems. I am sure everyone knows a woman who had a child or children out of wedlock but there is plenty of input from adults. (including the biological father..) Globally out of wedlock births are increasing Sweden, Thailand, the Philippines. In Sweden the roughly 50% out of wedlock birthrate has has supposedly little negative effect. (as a male who had only once a month contact with his father after my eighth birthday I would question that…although if the father is around as much as he would have been with a marriage certificate I can see it working) Old social norms are being disassembled. sometimes reasonable (or better) replacements are put in place… sometimes not.
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@Fg
“On the other hand, if inner city crime rates were to decline, then white racism would likely ebb.”
bwahaha.
The stereotypes whites hold are not just morally “bad”.
They are also incorrect. They are not based on truth. They are self-delusion. For a stereotype to be technically valid it would have to apply to a large majority of a population. No stereotypes do that. Racism is not based on a reasonable evaluation of black crime rates.
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@Uncle Milton,
You make an important observation. “Illegitimacy” does not equal “fatherlessness.” However, the former tends to increase the likelihood of the latter.
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I agree with FG. Most of the time the best “father figure” is the father. That may not always be possible, and you won’t die from the second best option, but generally, kids do better when they’re not raised by committee, or by serial designated “parental figures.”
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@FG: “Unfortunately it seems underclasses with high illegitimacy will be ubiquitous in the future as well. Not just black ones though. There are now Hispanics underclasses and you even see white ones forming in the US and UK.”
There has always been a white underclass in UK and in USA too, in France, Italy, all over the East Europe etc. Sometimes it is called White Trash etc., “lower parts of the working class” etc. but it has been there always. It still is. It is not forming now. It has been ignored by the rich and middle class people among the whites. These people have been ignored by many outside observers too.
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Abagond: “But black pathologists overlook all that. Because it is not about truly understanding Black America – it is about finding reasonable-sounding excuses for the racist set-up of American society.”
Not necessarily.
In 1911, discrimination would have had a significant impact on the potential of a non-white person. What about in 2011?
Despite racial biases which no doubt continue to manifest in some quantity, most people would agree that children born today, black or otherwise, are far more likely to be limited by factors under control by themselves and their families.
Black children are particularly vulnerable to the global economy due to their higher rates of non-intact families, which impacts educational achievement, and ultimately competitiveness in the increasingly fluid international labor market.
The people in Bangalore, Sao Paulo, Shenzhen, or HCMC who’ll be doing your job tomorrow and receiving your paycheck care absolutely nothing about “your struggle” or anyone else’s for that matter.
Perhaps I’ve overlooked some value in steeping youth in the lore of historical injustice.
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Just for the record, I do think that fatherlessness (not the same thing as illegitimacy) is a terrible thing. For a while I even thought it was worse than racism. Nowadays I put it at #2. But when whites bring it up in regard to blacks, it is utterly disingenuous and is only meant to derail attention away from themselves. Both in their own minds and that of their listeners.
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Randy said:
“People who allow themselves to curate the dusty mausoleums of past injustice at the expense of forward motion are consigning themselves and their progeny to a diminished future.
Aren’t you encouraging your readers to be constantly looking in the rear view mirror?”
You keep saying that stuff. What are you talking about?
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To King:
I agree with FG. Most of the time the best “father figure” is the father. That may not always be possible, and you won’t die from the second best option, but generally, kids do better when they’re not raised by committee, or by serial designated “parental figures.”
The last part made me wince…… I have seem multiple situations where children are born into a marriage but at a fairly young age… for various reasons the father drops (substantially but often not completely..) out of picture. There are families where this managed fairly well but more often than not the children are less stable and tend to make poor life choices when given the opportunity.
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“People who allow themselves to curate the dusty mausoleums of past injustice at the expense of forward motion are consigning themselves and their progeny to a diminished future.
Aren’t you encouraging your readers to be constantly looking in the rear view mirror?”
(Please note, I may veer a little bit off this topic)
Randy and FG,
If we don’t face and learn about past injustices, how can there be any progress in the future to ensure the same mistakes and crimes won’t happen again? This sounds very close to the “get over the past” arguments from the same people who celebrate the Fourth of July which also took place in the past.
You believe that blacks who bring up past and/or present injustices are making excuses for not progressing in their communities. Therefore, blacks are just being lazy and won’t work harder. Am I right? (sidestep and derailing highly possible)
The past has a DIRECT effect on the present in numerous ways. Centruies of oppression can not simply be overlooked and disregarded as the chapters in history some people CHOOSE to ignore because it’s painful to see historical truth. Nor, can the machinations of this nation’s systems be brushed off or covered up to believe that racism truly is no longer as big a problem as it was in the past. To claim that blacks are the cause of their own problems are signs of a privileged mindset, the mind of mentality that blames the victim of a society AND it’s history that purposely, directly, and indirectly oppresses those people.
As far as the illegitimacy subject, I agree with Agabond. Why are whites almost obsessed with the illegitimacy and fatherless rates of blacks, but are silent about their own? To think that it’s a black problem or part of black pathology is to call it what it is: racist. To think whites don’t have that problem is to tell strengthen the myth that whites are superior.
Bottom line, black pathologists are not conern with human pathology let alone white pathology (especially). Why? Because of the myth of white supremacy which excludes them from any claim, proven or otherwise, that they may be the pathological ones.
This is not to say that there are problems going on in black communities. We know there are, and some of us are doing something about it, but to say that they brought them on themselves and they deserve what they get not only shows that you have very little intent to help remedy the problems, but also shows your TRUE level of morality and integrity or lack thereof. Period.
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To jas0nburns:
They are also incorrect. They are not based on truth. They are self-delusion.
To me it’s more about probabilities. (although people do tend to form stereotypes based upon probabilities..)
Let’s give an example that doesn’t involve Blacks. (especially young Black men..)
I am walking down the street… I see a group of 4 elderly Chinese women… I basically perceive zero threat….or… let’s make them elderly Black women… they are dressed like they have come from church.. again my perception of threat is basically zero…. two blocks further down I approach a bar.. there are a number of young White men talking loudly. It’s not clear to me but it;s very likely they have been drinking. For the first group of people I would not cross the street.. but if the women were clustered together, I would probably step into the street out of deference and to reduce their perception of me as a threat. (I am over 6’4″ and 240lbs..by the way I have had Black women cross the street when they saw me… ) For the second group (the young White men who are possibly drunk.) I would possibly cross the street about a block beforehand.
What does crossing the street do..? It avoids me getting sucker punched (Which has happened to me.. the perp was Black..) or having something thrown at me or called names.. (perps have been Black and White..) or being shoved. (perps have been Black, Latino, and White..)
If I am across the street and the men start to approach me I have 1)A head start to get away from them. 2) Gives me a few seconds to plan what I will do. 3) I can run and spread them out (invariably a group of people that come after you while you are running get spread out.. which means you can pick them off one at a time…)
It is correct to say that if are a skilled rider and you hop on a motorcycle without a helmet or if you are skilled driver and you get into a modern Volvo and use safety belts that either one will likely get you a destination safely. But it is also correct to say that the latter form of transportation is markedly safer than the former… but that does not mean one can not be killed in an accident in a Volvo using safety belts. But basically if you are using risk management… you would want to avoid riding on a motorcycle without a helmet no matter how skilled of a rider you are.
Basically there are some neighborhoods where the possibility of assault, robbery, or murder are much higher than other neighborhoods.
The stereotypes whites hold are not just morally “bad”.
In my experience the weighting of probabilities of possible threats in what is perceived to be a dangerous neighborhood (we’ll avoid race in this case..) is most assuredly not just relegated to Whites but is also practiced by Blacks, Latinos, and Asians that I know.
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Abagond: “You keep saying that stuff. What are you talking about?”
By implying that differences in income, education, crime, etc between whites and blacks are invariably due to racism, you’re helping to propagate a mindset of fatalism and powerlessness. This is a self-limiting belief which is especially harmful in a time of diminished economic opportunity.
Blaque Ink: “You believe that blacks who bring up past and/or present injustices are making excuses for not progressing in their communities. Therefore, blacks are just being lazy and won’t work harder. Am I right?”
I don’t believe that. However, there is a tendency to extrapolate past injustices to current circumstances and assume that racism MUST be the cause. Such a model, as far as I’ve seen, is unsupported by actual data. An incorrect diagnosis of any problem will impede its resolution.
Blaque Ink: “The past has a DIRECT effect on the present in numerous ways. Centruies of oppression can not simply be overlooked and disregarded as the chapters in history some people CHOOSE to ignore because it’s painful to see historical truth.”
How is it that African, Caribbean, and Asian immigrants with their own painful colonial pasts (some experienced first hand) can come to this country and not similarly suffer from the same limitations?
Blaque Ink: “Why are whites almost obsessed with the illegitimacy and fatherless rates of blacks, but are silent about their own?”
I’m concerned about the breakdown of the family for all Americans, and the implications which that has for our nation’s future. It so happens that the black illegitimacy rate is the highest for any group, 2.5x that of whites.
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“How is it that African, Caribbean, and Asian immigrants with their own painful colonial pasts (some experienced first hand) can come to this country and not similarly suffer from the same limitations?”
A lot of it has to do with subtle differences in the oppressed minority group psychology.
Colonialism has usually meant a minority of powerful Whites controlling (by threat of force) a majority of non-White native peoples.
Americanism has been a MAJORITY of powerful Whites oppressing a much smaller minority of imported, non-White alien people, in a culture that is extremely hostile to them.
The damage done by Americanism is different.
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jorbia,
I assumed you were a white woman who came here with a missionary zeal to prove the so called black pathologies. You also seem so clueless about Black people and remain so when other commenters have explained why there are so many Black men in the Justice system. Either you have been raised outside of the Black population or you are just to ignorant of your surroundings.
If you understand birth control why don’t you share that information with some of your younger sisters instead of coming here to shake a finger.
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@ Milton
What’s your point? What does any of that have to do with stereotypes?
You lost me.
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jasOnburns,
re:interracial dating. Who knew?
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@Hathor–
jorbia,
I assumed you were a white woman who came here with a missionary zeal to prove the so called black pathologies. You also seem so clueless about Black people and remain so when other commenters have explained why there are so many Black men in the Justice system. Either you have been raised outside of the Black population or you are just to ignorant of your surroundings.
If you understand birth control why don’t you share that information with some of your younger sisters instead of coming here to shake a finger.
Just because I don’t accept the never-ending list of excuses for why some BAs claim they can’t achieve or claim they must resort to self-destructive acts doesn’t mean that you’re any “Blacker” than me. Attitudes like yours are one of the main reasons why so many BAs don’t achieve. They grab the “can’t do because I’m Black” crutch. To me, being Black doesn’t mean that I should achieve less than anyone else. I wasn’t raised to believe that, so I never will. You can blame my family for that. Sorry if I’m not Black enough for you.
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What’s your point? What does any of that have to do with stereotypes?
Did you believe that FG’s post (which you replied to…) was a stereotype…?
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Randy said:
“By implying that differences in income, education, crime, etc between whites and blacks are invariably due to racism, you’re helping to propagate a mindset of fatalism and powerlessness. This is a self-limiting belief which is especially harmful in a time of diminished economic opportunity.”
Wrong: it is those who do NOT understand the racism that goes on in the country who believe there must be something terribly wrong with black people – the black pathologies – and who, if they are black, will often therefore have less faith in themselves.
Black people are not perfect. But neither are they some mistake God had made, like what white people seem to believe.
The truth will set you free.
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@randy: you seem to look the world as a battle field where you either sink or swim, win or loose, and it seems to me that you are affraid that USA will sink for various reasons, one of them being the black population, another the collapse of the family structure etc.
I’ve been around the world a bit and seen few things in my life time and I don’t agree with that view. Majority of the people in this world just want to live in peace. Very few even try to compete with anybody. For them it is enough if they get food for their family and some housing.
Will USA sink? One day for sure. That is the way history goes. All civilizations will do so eventually and since the rich do not give a shit about their country, nor the big business nor the self serving politicians in US, it seems that the long slide has begun. Has it? Nobody knows. Future generations will see.
As for the ideology that life is about competition and war against all, I think that is basically fascist at its core. The idea is that only the strong survive and spoils to the winners. The basic assumption is that humanbeing is evil and selfish when it is actually the otherway around.
I have no idea where you do base your ideology but I’ve seen people risk their lives just to help somebody they do not even know. It happens everyday even in US where this social darwinism is touted so loudly by the media and powers to be.
If humans were basically out for themselves and just trying to get the others before they get you, things would certainly look different, even in the good ole US of A. For starters, there would be no firefighters. There would’ve been not one in the WTC way back then. Not a single fire fighter would’ve gone up to help those people in the Twin towers, if humans were after only their self interest.
You need only to look at those guys in the pictures and documents and you see what humanbeings are all about after all. They knew, each one of those fire fighters, that many of them would die. They knew it because it was their profession to know how these things go. They looked up the Twin towers and knew some of them would die that day and what did they do? Did they turn and go home? Did they do the smart thing and leave those poor sods to die in towers since it was hopeless?
No. They tried to rescue as many as possible, even if it meant that they could die. And hundreds of them did die. For what? For money? Power? Top position in society? Better living standards??
No. They died for trying to help their fellow men. That was the only reason that day why they died. And that is why they are regarded as heros all over the world. They did not go to war. They did not kill anybody. They tried to help all and were willing to die for it, willing to give absolutely everything for the others they did not even know. That is humanity.
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jorbia,
You don’t know what I think. My objection to you isn’t because of what you don’t accept, it is because you came here with so many questions. Then had the gall to say:
I’m not trying to be judgmental
You paint all Blacks but yourself with one brush. You accept that all of out wedlock births are fly by night relationships or that older Black women decide not to wait on Mr. Right to have a child. That might not be your decision, but do you bash white women for going to a sperm bank, having failure of birth control and not wanting an abortion. Then there’s the issue of single parenthood.When it is caused by divorce, with black people it is thrown in the same statistic. Working with divorced white women, they complained even more about there absence of child support and visitation.
When Bill Cosby was speaking he was speaking to a specific group of Black people. You seem to be casting the majority of Black people as having the same characteristics. You are helping to create the Black pathology. Pathology when it refers to a group infers that it is endemic to all persons in that group.
I will say this again, all I see is that you have come here to wag your finger.
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Some twenty years ago I worked at a company where white women had gone back to work because their husbands had been locked out or were on strike. Very few of these women had graduated high school, and even their husband had dropped out of high school to go to work. They had good paying union jobs that required manual labor or where trained on the machinery on the job. They lived a middle class lifestyle, with wife staying at home and living in a typical suburban home. Sometimes having a vacation home. Very little crime and drug use among that generation. The lock out was permanent, the unions busted, and some plants moved offshore. Now you cannot buy over the counter cough syrup, because of the prevalence of Meth and you hear of more violent crime in that area. No longer are those white folks children able to cruise through school and marry, get good paying jobs and have the good life. While I was working in that area, I worked with many younger white women who were baby mama’s and before I came a lot of people were fired, because there was drug dealing on the job. I didn’t here of any of them, being sent to jail.
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Hathor:
before I came a lot of people were fired, because there was drug dealing on the job. I didn’t here of any of them, being sent to jail…
I don’t know the details but that’s what I would do if I were a business owner.. I wouldn’t want the risk or liability of having known drug dealers at my business for more than even a day after I had determined that is indeed what they were doing. Generally police investigations would take a number of weeks (or longer) to sort out who the dealers and their sources were and that would be too long for me.
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@Hathor–
Jorbia,
You don’t know what I think. My objection to you isn’t because of what you don’t accept, it is because you came here with so many questions.
You don’t know what I think either, but you had the gall to try to act like you do.
The topic of the thread is about Black Pathology–not Pathology in America. Go to the top and read what the topic is. I started out early on by saying that Blacks need to pressure each other to do better because I personally do not believe that Whites are going to significantly change and destroy their various institutions that contain structural racism. Despite the racism, I fully believe that BAs could achieve at much higher levels if they started looking mainly inside themselves and holding each other more accountable and by putting most of these excuses to rest once and for all. I will never be one of those Blacks holding my breath waiting on the masses of White people to get a clue that most of them have no vested interest in getting anyway. I don’t believe BAs can talk White people into being “nice guys.” You can’t depend on shaming people into GIVING up much of their power and privileges. Show me where that has worked in the world.
I was raised to succeed DESPITE racism. I wasn’t raised in this country, but my parents sure as heck were and my grandparents. They believed that Black people could succeed despite racism and they proved it. I don’t get along with my family with some issues, but I’m really happy they instilled the “can do” attitude in me, among others.
This is what I started out asking above:
Why do so many Black men do things that get them incarcerated? Why do they just walk into the trap?
Why do so many Black women have sex with men who they know won’t stick by them or marry them if they get pregnant?
I was talking about those segments who do that, not everyone. Obviously, I wasn’t talking about BW who go to sperm banks or are widowed or divorced.
You paint all Blacks but yourself with one brush. You accept that all of out wedlock births are fly by night relationships or that older Black women decide not to wait on Mr. Right to have a child.
This is your interpretation. You don’t know what I accept. I’ve actually argued vehemently in other threads here that BAW women should not be penalized alone for the OOW problem because the men are just as much to blame.
I didn’t paint every Black person with the prison or OOW mother brush. Those questions were aimed at a segment of Black people.
you seem to be casting the majority of Black people as having the same characteristics . . . .
This is actually your misinterpretation or your faulty reading comprehension.
do you bash white women for going to a sperm bank, having failure of birth control and not wanting an abortion.
So are you claiming that the relatively high OOW rate among that segment of BAW is mainly due to them going to a sperm bank or using birth control that failed . . . .?
Um–Okay.
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I know this will seem futile as some people apparently know more about black people than black people, but anyway:
“…There is a tendency to extrapolate past injustices to current circumstances and assume that racism MUST be the cause. Such a model, as far as I’ve seen, is unsupported by actual data. An incorrect diagnosis of any problem will impede its resolution.”
Well, first off, what makes YOU think racism isn’t the case? This nation is a white supremacist society believe it or not. Racism is as American as apple pie, and ironically, those who were and are the victims of racism know more about it than those that practice it. Second, you mentioned that as far as you’ve seen, such a model is unsupported by actual data. I’m no expert in the sciences of racism, but there are reports and data that support that racism can have an effect on a person’s mental and physical health. Also, even if they was no data, that doesn’t make it any less true just like haven’t seen any evidence SO FAR (as you’ve said) doesn’t mean that it’s not true.
“How is it that African, Caribbean, and Asian immigrants with their own painful colonial pasts (some experienced first hand) can come to this country and not similarly suffer from the same limitations?”
What makes you think they aren’t suffering from their past personal, historic, or otherwise, and what makes them the same as blacks born here in America? Like King mentioned, colonialism is not the same as what happened to blacks here in America or in parts of Africa. It was much worse.
The main reason why blacks here are suffering is because people, mostly white, don’t want to face their ugly past or present, and blacks still suffer from the scars of the past and present, but no one seems to want to hear that, and so, black pathology is supported.
“I’m concerned about the breakdown of the family for all Americans, and the implications which that has for our nation’s future. It so happens that the black illegitimacy rate is the highest for any group, 2.5x that of whites.”
If what you said is true, why are you constantly focused on blacks? It’s like saying that something must be wrong with blacks, an old racist concept we’ve heard over and over again.
Randy, you clearly don’t want to learn about blacks, and that’s on you, but don’t think you know more about blacks than blacks.
Moving on.
Jorbia,
You still don’t understand either, and I don’t think you want to understand.
You assume the segment of blacks in America are either (to sum things up) up to no good or in prison. What information do you have to back up that claim you made when asking your questions? I’m guessing none. Your questions are based out of the conclusion that blacks are basically careless which is why many of them are in jail or having babies by other blacks who are careless. You can try to deny it all you want, and somehow I know you will, but that is what you believe which is nothing short of condescending.
If you weren’t raised in this country, what makes you think you know how blacks are in America? Do you really think all of the black men in prison and jails deserve to be in there? Do you think all blacks in prison are guilty of whatever crimes they’re convicted of?
As far as sex goes do you believe the segment of the black population are irresponsible when it comes to sex, and do you believe that only blacks are guilty of this? Do you think black women are that careless to let any man have sex with her?
Overall, most blacks are doing what they can to remedy the problems going on in poor black communities and beyond. Some of them know that most whites don’t get two damns about blacks. Still, they are trying their damn hardest to overcome the system of white supremacy. For us, it is a battle and there will be losers, but you can’t assume that those who lose haven’t tried, nor can you conclude that they prefer to risk, even their very lives, to survive when you don’t know the situation of those individuals.
Bottom line, you are basing your questions and comments on assumptions that blacks aren’t doing enough or anything at all to make changes in their areas. If you were raised to succeed despite racism, that’s great. I commend you. Still, how do you know those who are in prison, homeless, or dead haven’t been raised to succeed? You don’t. That’s the point. There are black parents who are struggling and doing EVERYTHING they can to raise their children. Children doesn’t come with handbooks, and you can’t conclude that black youth are dead or in prison because of bad parenting. If you do, then you have an elitist attitude.
In any case visitors like ya’ll you have shown that you came to this blog not to learn or even consider another person’s point of view, but to tell its visitors your points of view and hope they will listen. If not, something must be wrong with them.
Whatever. I’m done.
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@Blaque Ink–
Do you really think all of the black men in prison and jails deserve to be in there? Do you think all blacks in prison are guilty of whatever crimes they’re convicted of?
Using all is a straw man tactic. You don’t know what I’m assuming or concluding. You only know what you’re assuming or concluding about what I’ve said and you made some gigantic assumptions.
You can try to deny it all you want, and somehow I know you will, but that is what you believe which is nothing short of condescending.
You can also deny that you have a “we CAN’T do a lot better” attitude all you want. You may not be aware of how your type of attitude plays a big role in more BAs not doing a lot better. As long as so many BAs continue to accept, internalize, and promote the numerous explanations and excuses from each other about why so many Black men have no choice but to walk into traps, young Black men will continue to walk into those traps. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. The same goes for many of the unnecessary pregnancies of young BW. Notice that I didn’t say ALL.
I never said anything about “bad parenting.” Youth are shaped by many others aside from their parents. If a young person is constantly around a variety of others who keep making excuses for her or him and don’t pressure him to achieve, that young person is likely to not achieve.
If you’re saying I have an “elitest” attitude, that means that you think there’s something wrong with me. Somehow you think that I should embrace underachievement in many Blacks who could do a lot better simply because some Whites out there are racists. You accuse me of not considering (accepting) your point of view, but you’re not considering (accepting) my point of view either. Why is yours somehow more valid.
Insofar as my questions, well I think some BAs really need to start asking tough questions of each other and continue to ask. Instead, more and more BAs like Bill Cosby have shut up.
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Randy said:
“… there is a tendency to extrapolate past injustices to current circumstances and assume that racism MUST be the cause. Such a model, as far as I’ve seen, is unsupported by actual data. An incorrect diagnosis of any problem will impede its resolution.”
Most black people are not extrapolating from past injustices. They experience racism quite unmistakably in the present directly from white people themselves. There is nothing to wonder about. No close analysis or government studies are required.
There is plenty of Actual Data out there for those who truly seek it. The trouble is not a lack of Actual Data. The trouble is a lack of Actual Intellectual Honesty on the part of most whites.
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jorbia,
Why don’t you embrace the achievements Blacks have made and I am not speaking about the ones that are focused on during Black history month. Then compare the over all achievements with the Blacks you left behind.
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@ Milton
What? Black crime rates?
Whites really aren’t affected by black violent crime rates.
If the point was to stay away from people who commit the majority of violent crimes against whites. Whites should be way more scared of other whites.
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@ Blaque ink
“Children doesn’t come with handbooks, and you can’t conclude that black youth are dead or in prison because of bad parenting. If you do, then you have an elitist attitude.”
Here’s my question. If racism affects all Black Americans in roughly the same way, the rise of the black middle class would seem to be evidence that racism itself isn’t strong enough to hold BP back from succeeding in America. Obviously racism is there and it’s a factor. But large numbers of BP are doing well despite racism, while others….not so much. Anyone know why?
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abagond
Randy said:
“… there is a tendency to extrapolate past injustices to current circumstances and assume that racism MUST be the cause. Such a model, as far as I’ve seen, is unsupported by actual data. An incorrect diagnosis of any problem will impede its resolution.”
Most black people are not extrapolating from past injustices. They experience racism quite unmistakably in the present directly from white people themselves. There is nothing to wonder about. No close analysis or government studies are required.
There is plenty of Actual Data out there for those who truly seek it. The trouble is not a lack of Actual Data. The trouble is a lack of Actual Intellectual Honesty on the part of most whites……”
———————————————————————–
Very well stated. Most whites seem to believe that Black Americans are living a life, completely devoid of racism, discrimination and prejudice, and that all ‘hand wringing’ is only about the past. If only. I sometimes even fall into the trap of thinking that I am hallucinating current racist experiences or ‘playing the race card’ lol! I think that that is one of the White ‘Gedi’ mind games that white supremacy is so good at, making ‘you’ think that all is well, when that is the farthest from the truth and reality.
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@Hathor–
jorbia,
Why don’t you embrace the achievements Blacks have made and I am not speaking about the ones that are focused on during Black history month. Then compare the over all achievements with the Blacks you left behind.
Your suggestion is really funny because I’m the one arguing here all along that Blacks CAN achieve. Now, all of a sudden, you want me to “embrace the achievements of Blacks,” which is exactly what I’ve been doing all along. Blacks have been achieving DESPITE racism all along.
And I don’t know what you mean about “the Blacks you left behind.” There are many BAs who have achieved at super levels during the worst of times. They have certainly left me in the dust. Those are the Blacks who were presented to me as the models, not the ones who keep saying what they CAN’T do. That’s not the type of attitude that is going to push people to achieve.
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Oyan:
Oh, right: if you bring up the present, then you are “playing the race card”, being “oversensitive”, “blaming whitey” and all the rest. But if you talk about the past, then you are “living in the past” and need to “get over it”.
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@ Oyan
it’s Jedi not Gedi
Where my nerds at?
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Blaque Ink: “Well, first off, what makes YOU think racism isn’t the case?”
I think you raise an important and fundamental issue. Here is why oversubscribing to the racism belief is so damaging:
A person normally must fail numerous times for each success to achieve their goals. Best efforts must be put forth repeatedly in the face of long odds. Often, one is not provided with definitive reasons why an attempt failed.
Believing that one’s success is blocked by an outside agent, such as racism, is a tempting but poisonous assumption, and inhibits the necessary state of mind where failure must stimulate the desire to make another attempt with increased effort.
Blaque Ink: “What makes you think they aren’t suffering from their past personal, historic, or otherwise, and what makes them the same as blacks born here in America? Like King mentioned, colonialism is not the same as what happened to blacks here in America or in parts of Africa. It was much worse.”
Purportedly, African and Caribbean immigrants have higher educational attainment than American-born black folks. This would argue against a race-based barrier to success. Even if colonialism is less maleficent than “americanism” as King suggests, such immigrants would still face the same “hostile culture” upon their arrival.
Blaque Ink: “If what you said is true, why are you constantly focused on blacks?”
That is the stated topic of this article.
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Well, most full-blooded Native Americans are dead. Those that are left are likely to be confined to reservations–far from the eyes of most Americans. This leads to Native American problems being much less visible to the wider public.
Also though, despite a general antipathy that White Americans have had historically for Native Americans, they’ve always considered them a few steps above blacks. I’m sure this has something to do with the lack of a focus on Native American “issues.”
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jas0nburns
@ Oyan
it’s Jedi not Gedi
Where my nerds at?
—————————————————————
oops! Thanks lol!
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“Purportedly, African and Caribbean immigrants have higher educational attainment than American-born black folks. ”
When this factoid is posited, it is never discussed as to what percentage of the immigrants are to the population from which they originated. The ambition in which it takes for them to leave their country would certainly benefit them when they arrived in the US.
Lets say that it was approximately 10% who had immigrated to America and all did well. Would they have higher cultural attainment in education and professions than the 42% of Blacks who had done the same.
In spite of racism there are rich, upper middle and middle class Black Americans. There are also working class Black Americans who go to work every day, never had welfare and make ends meet.
Racism may not be the direct barrier to getting a job or making money, but that it requires that sometimes you can’t be average, that the white person with less credentials will get the job or that promotion. Racism is the little digs to your psyche, whites reminding you that you are Black, assuming you know every Black or that some other Black behavior reflects on you, the insults to your intelligence, the surprise when you don’t have that share cropper story, that you are not the first generation to have a college degree or when you don’t fit their Negro stereotype. Racism still effects your ability to buy a home, being offered only questionable mortgages and even today being steered into certain neighborhoods. You always have to insist or quote the law, to get what you want. Racism means if you are poor, you can’t appear to be so. You have to be better dressed and more preppy than your white peer if you are a Black male, to be considered for that sales associate position and etc.
I sure that many here could add to the list.
Concrete situations that occur every day, some not debilitating, but none the less aggravating.
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@ Jas0n
Here’s my question. If racism affects all Black Americans in roughly the same way, the rise of the black middle class would seem to be evidence that racism itself isn’t strong enough to hold BP back from succeeding in America. Obviously racism is there and it’s a factor. But large numbers of BP are doing well despite racism, while others….not so much. Anyone know why?
Regionalism is one reason. Blacks fair a lot better in the South and out West than they do in the Northeast and Midwest. There is uneven progress against residual racism geographically in America.
Education is another reason. Naturally, the more educated one is, the more resources/options one has to either combat or escape racism.
Immigration is another reason. Recent immigrants do much better because the psychological baggage of colonialism is different than that of Americanism.
Sub-Culture is another reason. Some Black sub-cultures foster greater levels of pathology than others. For instance, the Jack & Jill sub-culture does much better than say… the gansta sub-culture.
Military Influence is another reason. The U.s. Military is thoroughly integrated with Blacks broadly represented at every level. Blacks living in areas where the military culture has a larger influence tend to fair better and to be seen as more equal.
There are many more reasos
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Thx king some of that was news 2 me.
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Randy said:
“Purportedly, African and Caribbean immigrants have higher educational attainment than American-born black folks. This would argue against a race-based barrier to success. Even if colonialism is less maleficent than “americanism” as King suggests, such immigrants would still face the same “hostile culture” upon their arrival.”
1. Compared to even most white people, black immigrants have better educations (public schools in America suck) and, as immigrants, more faith in themselves.
2. They did not grow up in a country that told them over and over again from the time they were little that blacks are no good, that there is something wrong with them. The very stuff that is coming right out of your own mouth.
3. Many immigrants go back home and of those who are in America, many are paid under the table. None of those people show up in the government numbers. If they did they would pull down the averages.
4. Black immigrants most certainly do face white racism, though it is not as bad as what Black Americans face. Because, you know, they are “not like those other blacks”.
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“A person normally must fail numerous times for each success to achieve their goals. Best efforts must be put forth repeatedly in the face of long odds. Often, one is not provided with definitive reasons why an attempt failed.
Believing that one’s success is blocked by an outside agent, such as racism, is a tempting but poisonous assumption, and inhibits the necessary state of mind where failure must stimulate the desire to make another attempt with increased effort.”
That is true. But the problem takes time to fix. In some cases the problem is still racism, but in other cases, you’re dealing with the secondary and residual consequences of long-term historic racism.
You may recall the Peanuts cartoon, in which, Lucy would continually hold the football in kickoff position and invite Charlie Brown to kick the ball. But every time he would try, she’d move the ball at the last second, causing Charlie Brown to miss and land with a thud on his back.
That has been the essential Black-American experience since emancipation. A continual promise of being given a chance only to have it pulled away time after time.
Emancipation: We’ll be free and then everything will change!
Reconstruction: Well, it took a little longer than we thought, but NOW everything will change.
Northern/Urban Migration: Well, the problem was the rural South. Once we leave the here, things will be much better in the northern cities.
WWII: Well, we’re fighting and dying for Uncle Sam. Our Tuskegee squadrons are renowned, and highly decorated. We’re in combat against White enemy troops and we’re winning. This is it! This is it!! They’ve gotta see it now!!
Civil Rights Protests/Legislation: Finally we have the laws changed. There is no way they can discriminate against us now… at least I hope not.
Glass ceilings/Union policies/Country Club Racism/Nepotism/Media Unfairness/Racial Profiling/Etc.:
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Abagond,
Black immigrants most certainly do face white racism, though it is not as bad as what Black Americans face. Because, you know, they are “not like those other blacks”
This is interesting to know. Why do you think this happens?
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@ Mira
“This is interesting to know. Why do you think this happens?”
http://www.gladwell.com/1996/1996_04_29_a_black.htm
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Thanks for the link!
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Hey! Where did my comment go? I thanked you for the link. And now it’s gone.
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It was in the spam filter.
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It makes sense. That’s what spammers usually post as comments. In any case, the link was very helpful.
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Mira,
Somethings in that article are right, but his description of how American Blacks have been raised or think, irritates the hell out of me.
Many American slaves had skills and sold their labor to make money for themselves and their masters.
There many American Blacks who have been educated since slavery. First generation out of slavery in my family. I’ve had teachers who graduated college and supported the next sibling, one which this process supported all seven siblings through college.
In each of our successes there has been a conscientious effort to destroy us. The former slaves when their skills were surpassed by technology were not allowed to move along with it. An example, most Blacksmith were able to obtain gasoline franchises, that is if you were white. Selling gas provide the capital to maintain and auto repair business. Urban renewal a government program to build the highway system most times found it way through the Black community and split it apart, along with destroying the businesses, since it was often difficult to find another place. Black were severely restricted in where they could relocate. These types of things went on into the seventies and when industries left, many Black neighborhoods left poor and any organization that tried to combat this seem to wind up on the list of House Un-American Activities Committee and stalked by the FBI. Jamaican immigrants weren’t necessarily considered the good Negro, when Marcus Garvey was stirring up the Negroes in America. That was over a century ago, most whites in power still know the so-called trouble makers of the 60’s are still alive. Why do you think there is such a demonetization of the American Black? Louis Farrakhan’s politics may be very close to what conservatives say Blacks should do, but they wont give him credit, because he wont love white folk and he may have to much power.
Blacks in America have succeeded. but it is not in the interest for the ruling class to acknowledge this. It keeps the underclass white folks somehow thinking they are better. So you will hear about the out of wedlock births, the crime rate, how Blacks are worst that other folk and they encourage all immigrants to buy into this, because that way they don’t have to deal with any injustice that they perpetrate on the legal immigrants. Work over forty hour without overtime, work eight hours without a lunch break, threatened to fire them if they look for other work and other labor violations.
I could go on and I wish I could refer you to a book. I’m sure there is one out there. Perhaps someone here knows of one.
There seems to be nothing we can do to keep from being defined by the basest among us, as the victim or as a race looking to be taken care of, as the old slave who could no longer work.
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@ Mira
You’re welcome 🙂
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@ Hathor
I don’t think Gladwell is so much describing how American Blacks are, so much as he is reporting how American Blacks are perceived. It’s a contrast in perception. I think this passage serves as a thesis of sorts:
“Here, then, are the two competing ideas about racism side by side: the manager issues a blanket condemnation of American blacks even as he holds West Indians up as a cultural ideal. The example of West Indians as “good” blacks makes the old blanket prejudice against American blacks all the easier to express. The manager can tell black Americans to get off their butts without fear of sounding, in his own ears, like a racist, because he has simultaneously celebrated island blacks for their work ethic. The success of West Indians is not proof that discrimination against American blacks does not exist. Rather, it is the means by which discrimination against American blacks is given one last, vicious twist: I am not so shallow as to despise you for the color of your skin, because I have found people your color that I like. Now I can despise you for who you are.
This is racism’s newest mutation–multicultural racism, where one ethnic group can be played off against another. But it is wrong to call West Indians the victors in this competition, in anything but the narrowest sense. “
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abagond 2. They did not grow up in a country that told them over and over again from the time they were little that blacks are no good, that there is something wrong with them. The very stuff that is coming right out of your own mouth.
Yes sir, Malcolm talked about this in his autobiography. He said how happy and shocked he was to see blks in all levels of leadership in Africa. How happy and amazed he was that a blk pilot was flying a plane.
abagond3. Many immigrants go back home and of those who are in America, many are paid under the table. None of those people show up in the government numbers. If they did they would pull down the averages.
good point
abagond4. Black immigrants most certainly do face white racism, though it is not as bad as what Black Americans face. Because, you know, they are “not like those other blacks”.
Most racism is based around the surface. So when a shop keeper sees a blk person enter his/her shop, they may follow that person around. It only changes after the non blk person hears an accent that they may give the African a bit of a break.
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King,
I understood that quote, but what irritated me is when he described his family and how it affected their response to racism.
“My mother and Rosie’s mother came from this colored class. Their parents were schoolteachers in a tiny village buried in the hills of central Jamaica. My grandmother’s and grandfather’s salaries combined put them, at best, on the lower rungs of the middle class. But their expectations went well beyond that. In my grandfather’s library were Dickens and Maupassant. My mother and her sister were pushed to win scholarships to a proper English- style boarding school at the other end of the island; and later, when my mother graduated, it was taken for granted that she would attend university in England, even though the cost of tuition and passage meant that my grandmother had to borrow a small fortune from the Chinese grocer down the road.
My grandparents had ambitions for their children, but it was a special kind of ambition, born of a certainty that American blacks did not have–that their values were the same as those of society as a whole, and that hard work and talent could actually be rewarded…”
That last sentence is false as is the following paragraph. American slaves did the same type of work and had the same skill set, but after slavery those jobs became reserved for poor whites and the new white immigrants. However there were some Blacks that were able to pursue their craft and I hardly think that those coloreds were “…years in advance of their American counterparts…”
“The resulting large group of coloreds soon formed a kind of proto-middle class, performing various kinds of skilled and sophisticated tasks that there were not enough whites around to do, as there were in the American South. They were carpenters, masons, plumbers, and small businessmen, many years in advance of their American counterparts, developing skills that required education and initiative.”
This is why I responded as such to Mira, because the author of that article really doesn’t have a clue about Black people’s history in this country and in some ways reinforces Black Pathology.
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“Here’s my question. If racism affects all Black Americans in roughly the same way, the rise of the black middle class would seem to be evidence that racism itself isn’t strong enough to hold BP back from succeeding in America. Obviously racism is there and it’s a factor. But large numbers of BP are doing well despite racism, while others….not so much. Anyone know why?”
Jasonburns,
Well, racism doesn’t affect all blacks the same way as blacks are not a monolithic group. It affects individual blacks in a numerous ways depending on the individual.
Even though we have a black middle class that’s been around for some time, it may hint that racism is not as bad as it has been in the past. However, racism itself has morphed into a form many can not see openly.
There are blacks that are doing well economically and psychologically, but some are still struggling. I think part of it is due to individuality, location, education, and navigating through the system in order to succeed. One may say that some blacks have learned to overcome racism. Still, it doesn’t mean racism is gone as some blacks believe in personal responsibility, a conservative approach to life, and as such side with the conservative movement in condemning blacks who haven’t made it assuming that since they’ve succeeded they can too also assuming they have an adequate mindset to succeed.
One may say that in order to succeed in America, you have to play by the white man’s rules. This is not to say that those who do are house negroes, even though there are some, but it means that, for now, you have to run through their labyrinth to get to the goal, and in some cases kiss their ass to stay in the goal. It’s not a concrete plan, but it’s an approach.
I dunno if that answered your question, but I hope it gave you an idea.
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Well, if some one thinks that there is no racism towards the black caribbeans in USA, just look what they wrote about the jamaican posses back in the 80’s and early 90’s. In some news stories they implied that any jamaican can be a member of a drug posse or yardie etc. So it is there, it has been there, it is just not that instutionalized as it is towards american blacks.
Racism does not mean that very white guy is burning crosses in his back yard and every white woman is havin a picknick in the local lynchings, it is sometimes very habitual looking and sounding. It is race profiling. It is awareness of the Other. Small things, that nagging feeling that sounds almost unheard alarm in your head when you see a wrong kind of a black man, when you are the only white guy among blacks…
Then you have to wake up and realise that you are not immune. This is where it comes from. This is the source. It is inside and one has to be aware of it and fight against it as well as one can. It is not easy, it is so easy to slip into that race code that surrounds us but it is the only way for me. I start from myself. That is why I do not believe when somebpdy starts his/hers sentece: All the blacks…
No, there is no All The.
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Just something to think about: absolute majority of so called serial killers are whites. There are some exceptions, but very few. Usually a serial killer is a white male, 25-35 yrs, and very often the people he comes in to contact on daily bases have no clue of his activities.
What does this mean? That all whites are serial killers? Potential ones? Is this a white pathology? Could it be??
Why nobody is saying that whites are serial killers, or that it is typical for white men to be serial killers?
Are we? Is it?
Is this racism??
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I would say being a serial killer is a white pathology. I have no idea why, though. There must be something about white nurture that makes certain people serial killers.
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I don’t think being white means to be a potential serial killer. It doesn’t work that way, obviously.
It’s similar to rapists. Most rapists are men, but most men are not rapists.
So while there are high chances are that a rapist will be male, there isn’t much of a percentage of males who actually are rapists.
Sadly, some people don’t follow thing logically and conclude men = rapists.
(This can work for any pathology or similar statement).
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Perhaps its because whites tend to have more money passed down from generation to generation? So if people dropped out of school their families would still be able to support them.
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@ Blaque ink
“Effects” was the wrong word. What I should have said is that BP encounter similar levels of racism on average. But from your and King’s responses that doesn’t seem to be true either. Location, education etc would make a difference
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What I think is missing from this discussion is a more history based view of black pathology. (Just as with racism in general)
After all, everything we do today that passes for acceptable behavior is influenced by our history. You’ve seen those sci-fi movies where someone time travels to the past and changes something only to return to the present and find that everything is different. What if someone hadn’t invented blue jeans for outdoor work in 1873? What would we be wearing now?
The point is that racism, slavery, and Jim Crow shaped the behavior of the ancestors of modern BP and WP and those behaviors were passed down to us, one generation to the next.
Slavery and Jim Crow had a terrible effect on the psyche of those ancestors and caused some self-destructive behaviors to become culturally engrained. Many people act those behaviors out without even knowing why. Like the black brute stereotype.
We should all be more honest about the way our history has a direct effect on all of our behavior and not pretend that we are in total control of what we say and do. For the most part we are all walking, talking products of the past.
I think it would be interesting to explore how WP act out the racist behavior of our ancestors and the extent to which we understand our own racist history.
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Chic Noir said:
“Most racism is based around the surface. So when a shop keeper sees a blk person enter his/her shop, they may follow that person around. It only changes after the non blk person hears an accent that they may give the African a bit of a break.”
Good point. In fact, that makes what I am saying testable: For example, West Indians would have the same rate of being racially profiled as Black Americans but would have, say, lower rates of unemployment (adjusted for level of education) – and yet be nowhere close to that of whites.
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dee said:
“Perhaps its because whites tend to have more money passed down from generation to generation? So if people dropped out of school their families would still be able to support them.”
I think that is huge. If you own you own house free and clear, for example, it makes it easier to get through hard times or to take in family members who are going through a rough patch. It also makes it easier to borrow money from the bank to start a business. Since you do not have to pay rent or mortgage, it means you can save more money from your paycheck . Etc.
But in the case of white high school drop outs I think there is more than just that going on. As whites they are more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt by most employers, who are themselves white. Also, there is more likely to be someone in their family who owns a business who will look past their lack of education.
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jas0nburns,
You’ve just exposed one of the fundamental flaws with popularly expressed “anti-racism”.
In this model, black people have no agency of their own, and are total victims of their environment, while white people have full agency and are thus completely responsible for their actions.
Not only is such a belief incongruent, I’d say it’s insulting to blacks to suggest that they’re nothing but powerless automatons.
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Abagond said: “1. Compared to even most white people, black immigrants have better educations (public schools in America suck) and, as immigrants, more faith in themselves. ”
I think the second part of your statement is spot-on. Immigrants tend to have faith in themselves as well as families who provide support and demand nothing less than high academic achievement.
If black Americans wish to increase these for themselves, how will that arise? It must come from within. Nothing else accomplishes this goal. Affirmative action and other programs which attempt to exogenously provide a “social lift” have the exact opposite effects.
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@Randy
“while white people have full agency and are thus completely responsible for their actions.
Not only is such a belief incongruent, I’d say it’s insulting to blacks to suggest that they’re nothing but powerless automatons.”
I didn’t say whites were exempt, on the contrary. I said:
“The point is that racism, slavery, and Jim Crow shaped the behavior of the ancestors of modern BP and WP”
“We should all be more honest about the way our history has a direct effect on all of our behavior and not pretend that we are in total control of what we say and do. For the most part we are all walking, talking products of the past.”
What part of “we are all” did you not understand?
Nice try though.
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@ Randy
Besides, you’re creating a false dichotomy with full-agency vs. powerless automatons.
The truth is we are both.
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Mira:
The Gladwell article was interesting, but parts of it made me cringe.
Because Gladwell’s mother is Jamaican, he does not settle for the easy answers, like Randy does. On the other hand, it does not keep him from looking down on darker Jamaicans or on Black Americans. Like that bit about Dickens. Or, worse, what he said about Black Americans having different “values” than the mainstream – that was straight out of Black Pathology 101.
On the other hand, I think he is right about white New Yorkers using West Indians to excuse their own racism against Black Americans. They use Asian immigrants in the very same way.
At the end he says, “somebody always has to be the nigger.” That brings together this post on black pathology and the one on “How to become white”: this stuff is not mainly driven by hard sociological facts, like Randy thinks, but by how White Americans process their own shame and feelings about being different.
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Randy Gardner,
AA gives opportunity to the qualified, but I know you think 30 points lower than a white person on the SAT makes a Black person an imbecile.
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jas0nburns,
The comment about incongruence wasn’t directed at you, but rather at the “anti-racism” movement as I’ve seen it commonly expressed. You’re absolutely asking the right questions here.
Hathor,
AA is poisonous for a variety of reasons. Here’s two:
1. It’s blatantly racist.
2. It undermines successful minorities. For example, I believe that Abagond is some type of software developer. Suppose he studies hard and works hard and deserves his success, yet because of explicit and implicit AA, people he interacts with throughout his career will wonder, “diversity hire?”.
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Affirmative action is off topic here – except where it can be directly tied to the issue of black pathologies.
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“You’ve just exposed one of the fundamental flaws with popularly expressed “anti-racism”.
In this model, black people have no agency of their own, and are total victims of their environment, while white people have full agency and are thus completely responsible for their actions”
I’m not familiar with that expression of anti-racism. That sounds like a misinterpretation to me.
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Randy:
I agree with Jason: this full agency stuff is a straw man argument.
No one here is arguing that racism is absolute. After all, a black man is president. Racism does not stop people from succeeding, it just makes it that much harder, giving whites unfair advantages.
But people like you read those advantages as proof that there is something strangely wrong with black people. Not as whites benefiting from hundreds of years of an extremely racist past and an ongoing racist present.
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Hi Abagond, everyone,
Glad to see that you’ve made it clear as to why you simply refuse to focus on what everybody else can see with their own eyes. Chuck Ross, who you know fairly well, has a post up over at his blog on a very related point; the following is a comment of mine that is germane to the discussion here:
Chuck,
As I said the other day, what you and others have to understand about what you’re seeing is that the Black community isn’t as monolithic as it may seem. For more understanding on this point, please checkout the HBO hit series, The Wire. It shows you what has happened to urban America and in particular, Black Americans, over the past roughly half a century.
I’ve already mentioned Eugene Robinson’s book Disintergration, which I would highly urge you and the others here to checkout. In it he makes the case quite clearly that the Black community has broken up into several subgroupings in the years since the Civil Rights era. Simply put and in a nutshell, those who were able to take advantage of the new opportunities that opened up in around that time, were able to move out. Jim Crow forced more middle class Blacks to live with their lower class brethren, not in and of itself a big problem, but let’s face it, often these two groups want and aspire towards different things. Moreover, the kinds of antisocial behaviors and crime tends to come from the lower classes, again, as The Wire aptly depicts.
So, the Black Buppies, they moved out as soon as they were able to do so; quiet as its kept, Black Flight is nothing new. What you see is what The Wire creator David Simon calls the America that got left behind. The reason why you don’t hear much in the way of open condemnation of the things you see Chuck, is because most middle class Blacks don’t feel they have to speak to what inner city underclass Blacks do – which shouldn’t come as any big surprise. After all, when was the last time a middle class White person was upbraided for not speaking out and giving a poor White person who was acting up the Poundcake speech? The simple truth of it is Chuck, that those middle class Blacks don’t owe an explanation or an exhortation, to anybody. They’re Americans just like anyone else, and their only real responsibility is to themselves and their families, who in all likelihood, are also middle class.
I know it’s something you don’t want to hear, but it is what it is. Most African Americans today are at least nominally middle class, and a tell tale sign of that is in terms of where they live. In just about every instance, middle class Blacks don’t live in the hardcore inner city ghettoes. They just don’t, and trust me on this Chuck, because I think I might just know a bit more about the topic than you do.
So they don’t particularly feel the need to chastise other folk behaving badly, because it ain’t them or anyone they know. And who can blame them? In many ways, they’d be right. They pay taxes just like everyone else, and the police is supposed to take care of those who break the law. Beyond that, those middle class Blacks don’t feel it’s their job to be out there doing a Bill Cosby. Especially after the way he was treated.
Now, all that being said, let me also say this: I’ve been quite critical of the NAACP and plan to write more about them in the coming future. I think their relevance has greatly diminished, and in our time they exist seemingly to serve their own interests of survival. I also think that what happened, both on the train and at that school, was horrible. And for the NAACP to attempt to justify or explain away or deflect what happened in those instances, suggesting that there was a racial component to the way they were reported, was again, repugnant to me.
But the truth of the matter is Chuck, that again, the Black middle class has no intention of going back to inner city cores like the Westside of Baltimore that’s depicted in The Wire, and straighten young knuckleheads out. Those folks have moved out into the County a long time ago, many never looking back. So for you or anyone else to suggest otherwise, is really only fooling yourselves, even while I get where you’re coming from.
That said, let me also say that middle class Blacks expect Whites like you and others here, to be able to make the distinctions between them and the aforementioned knuckleheads – this is where said Buppies get upset with you all. Recall the Skip Gates incident – the bottom line was that not only did he own the house he was supposedly breaking into, but he doesn’t fit the profile of a burgular – he’s clearly middle aged, for one thing, not wearing the kinds of clothes one would associate with “thugs” and so on. We can talk about Gates’ comments all day, but the bottomline is, that middle and upper middle class Blacks don’t like the fact that Whites like you and others simply refuse to make the distinctions between them and inner city ghetto dwellers like those shown on The Wire. And they would have a point. Clearly, the many White knuckleheads out there don’t prevent you all from distinguishing them from yourselves, right? So why is it so very difficult for you to do the same when it comes to African Americans?
As you can see from my links posted upthread, and in my writings over the past year, I’ve had quite a bit to say about Black Crime and the role I think we Black people as a whole play in it. But I hold out no illusions – the Black middle class doesn’t have any obligation to “chastise” those Blacks who are acting up. The Black middle class does what the White middle class and other middle class groups do:
Lookout for themselves and their families.
And to expect anything more of them, is really pipedreaming.
Checkout Robinson’s book, and definitely checkout The Wire.
O.
PS: The new blog is coming in less than a week; stay tuned…
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Here’s Chuck’s actual post on the matter I spoke to above:
http://glpiggy.net/2011/01/06/tales-from-the-hood/
O.
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“…We should all be more honest about the way our history has a direct effect on all of our behavior and not pretend that we are in total control of what we say and do. For the most part we are all walking, talking products of the past.
I think it would be interesting to explore how WP act out the racist behavior of our ancestors and the extent to which we understand our own racist history…”
I think this is a fair point expressed by Jas0nburns. It shows a degree of reflection and self-awareness sadly lacking in Randy Garver’s comments.
I contrast this with one of Randy’s typical responses:
…”In this model, black people have no agency of their own, and are total victims of their environment, while white people have full agency and are thus completely responsible for their actions.
Not only is such a belief incongruent, I’d say it’s insulting to blacks to suggest that they’re nothing but powerless automatons…”
The only thing which is incongruent here is this one dimensional perspective of the cause of many so called “Black pathologies” when viewed against the wider backdrop of an endemic racist white society.
This seemingly objective and dispassionate one sided approach is flawed as innumerable posters here have tried to point out. Myself included:
“…if you are also not prepared to focus the same attention discussing the perceived causes, (i.e racism and its effects on both the – perpetrator – and the – victim – then you are either being disingenuous or not really serious…”
African-Americans have strived to become successful despite the odds against them. But an even greater many have not. There are a multiple number of reasons for this. Many of Abagond’s different blog articles attempt to present this by showing how the multi-dimensional aspects of this poisonous and insidious ideology weaves its way through all areas of American, social, economic and cultural life.
This is a multi-aspected, multi-analytical approach to try to take into account and highlight the many “white pathologies” created directly from an inability to perceive and acknowledge the many destructive consequences of this seemingly “invisible” doctrine called white supremacy.
Its clear to me that this type of approach is missing from the arguments of those posters, so far, who insist on focusing on just one aspect – “Black pathologies” and the inability /ability of Black people to rise above them. Such thinking and focusing can only lead to tackling the symptoms while ignoring and denying the vicious cancer of racism and its effects thats eating away at all of us.
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Abagond,
When there is a prevailing attitude that whatever Blacks attain is because, someone has given it to them, isn’t that part of the Black Pathology. We don’t work hard, are not smart enough and the bleeding heart liberals overlook our fallacies and cover for us.
You mention we have a Black President now, but how often do we hear he’s not qualified, not smart enough and that his educational achievements were somehow given to him.
You cannot speak about Black Pathology and separate it from some of the other topics such as AA, HBD and The Bell Curve. All of those critics of AA, the believers in HBD and the Bell Curve are derivatives of belief in Black Pathology.
Black Pathology gives some the self serving reliability on psychology and statistics, throw them together, then create some mumbo jumbo; voila.
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I agree with Hathor; it’s your call Abagond, but I don’t think it’s possible to keep Affirmative Action out of the discussion here. It’s a big player in the mix.
O.
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“You mention we have a Black President now, but how often do we hear he’s not qualified, not smart enough and that his educational achievements were somehow given to him.”
But of course, most American Presidents, have been called unintelligent and unqualified by their opponents. George Bush was seen as a drunken “F” student who only got through first Yale, then Harvard, because of his family connections.
Bill Clinton was a single-minded sex hound, Ronald Reagan was a dumb actor, Jimmy Carter was an ignorant peanut farmer, Gerald Ford was a stupid klutz, etc. etc.
I think that the majority of Americans believe that Barak Obama is highly intelligent.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2010/07/01/2010-07-01_barack_obama_is_among_best_presidents_ever__george_w_bush_not_so_much_say_schola.html
http://www.silobreaker.com/obama-named-most-admired-man-for-third-straight-year-5_2263965914141556845
Some think he’s a Socialist (a common charge against Democrats) the nut jobs think he wasn’t born in the United States.
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@ Hathor:
Fair enough, affirmative action is NOT off topic.
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@ Obsidian
You make some good points in your post on Chuck’s blog. I agree with you that upper class and middle class Blacks are not somehow responsible for the pathologies of lower class Blacks. The only problem is that lower class Blacks are also not “responsible” for each other’s pathologies.
A lower class, uneducated, Black person is not somehow responsible for the actions of another Black person who is in a similar economic and educational circumstance. How could he be? Criminals are always responsible for their own criminal and/or anti-social actions.
We don’t say that left-handed people who make less than $30,000 a year are all responsible for their “group” actions. We don’t say that all baldheaded men should have done something about Bernie Madoff before he did so much harm to so many people.
All of these groups, based on physically identifiable appearances are artificial. Statistical groups in a study are not “teams.”
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King,
Obviously, you haven’t been reading the same blogs I’ve been reading.
I’m not sure, I think I had a discussion on this site with someone about Michelle Obama in the context of either the HBD or the Bell Curve post. Same issue I mentioned about the President. taken from her Senior thesis. All sorts of implications drawn to support that she was an AA candidate therefore not smart enough and of course that liberal school just gave her that degree.
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@ Hathor
Indeed the world is full of fools (sigh)
…and most of them seem to have a blog these days.
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Abagond,
I do not think that there is something “strangely wrong with black people”.
You said, “Racism does not stop people from succeeding, it just makes it that much harder, giving whites unfair advantages. ”
My question is: how much of an advantage is present today? The reality is that no one knows for sure. The data are insufficient to form a reasonably precise estimate. Therefore, a person is thus likely to over or underestimate such advantage. Which perspective is superior?
Consider 2 children. One child is taught that racism is everywhere, and that they are subject to persistant discrimination across all facets of society.
The other child is taught that discrimination still exists in places, but you’ll rarely ever know for sure when it presents, so just keep on doing your thing.
Which child do you think will be happier, more motivated, and ultimately more successful in their life?.
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@ Randy
You can teach a child both:
1) You are likely to have to deal with some prejudice out there in the world
2) But it will not stop you from achieving your goals, if you are relentless in pursuing them.
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“This is a multi-aspected, multi-analytical approach to try to take into account and highlight the many “white pathologies” created directly from an inability to perceive and acknowledge the many destructive consequences of this seemingly “invisible” doctrine called white supremacy.”
Exactly.
It seems the system of white supremacy has created white and black pathologies both, but of course white pathologies are made invisible while black pathologies are emphasized.
This is why I have come to hate the “get over the past” approach.
WP need to see how the past has shaped our relationship to black America. How we continue to act out patterns of behavior set into motion by our ancestors.
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King,
That’s a fair perspective, and one similar to what I’ll teach my children when they’re old enough.
I will however caution them against jumping to the conclusion of discrimination in situations where they cannot know for certain, which is very likely most of the time.
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Randy
All you have to do is open your eyes to the world around you. Take an HONEST look without trying to explain everything away from your white viewpoint and examples of advantages will begin to materialize. You don’t need data.
Do you need data to know that the sun rises in the morning? Only if your blind.
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@ Randy
I think most people take that approach when talking to their kids. This is a blog where people sound out their ideas and experiences regarding racism (among other things). However, the same tone that we take here is not taken when talking to 10 year olds, or even necessarily with adult coworkers and friends.
This is a place where people come to try to make sense of the complicated truths about racism and how those truths effect us all. But every truth is not to be spoken at every moment. There is a time to discuss how racism limit our options in certain circumstances. There is also a time to tell the younger generation that they can achieve anything they set their minds to.
Do those two statements seem incongruous? Different speech suits different circumstances and goals. We can speak tactically about our presently perceived reality, but we can also speak to inspire and motivate. Every person’s reality with racism is unique to their own experience. There are many “truths” about what racism is and does. It’s different for everybody.
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Randy It undermines successful minorities.
Randy, here’s the thing. I have an educated grandmother and great-grand parent. (some) Whites have been doubting out intelligence forever.
truth… calling our intelligence into question was a way to justify the evil things done to us during the enslavement period.
Have you read anything about the Delany sisters??? One of them was a dentist and she suffered discrimanation in school. What about Malcolm x’s teacher telling him he couldn’t be lawyer because we was a n-word? Do you understand that effect that had on Malcolm? This happened before affirmative action took place.
randy For example, I believe that Abagond is some type of software developer.
Damn, Abagond you looking for a new woman
*chic noir bats eyelashes*
You’re the type of brother I need in my life.
Jason burns This is why I have come to hate the “get over the past” approach.
Yea, I do to. We must be mind full of past. We should use the past as the reason why blks must push their children to achieve all that they can. Look at the j.e.ws, look at their history in Europe before the holocaust. It wasn’t pretty so they’ve made it their business to be educated as a way to protect themselves. Btw, law and medicine were always thought of so highly in Europe and its one of the reasons why J,ew.s were ghettoized into those professions.
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Hathor quoting Randy Gardner,
AA gives opportunity to the qualified, but I know you think 30 points lower than a white person on the SAT makes a Black person an imbecile.
Why is it that those who complain about the blk engineering student with a 30 point lower SAT score don’t say much about the blk basket ball player who has a 200 point lower SAT score being given admittance????
Why is it okay for the far less intelligent ball player to a be student vs the blk engineering student???
Now yall know the answer to this so I guess I don’t have to say much.
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Kamuela Such thinking and focusing can only lead to tackling the symptoms while ignoring and denying the vicious cancer of racism and its effects thats eating away at all of us.
Kamuela the thing is we’ve always faced racism in this country and at times far worse than what we have today. But we didn’t kill each like like we do today. We had more pride in how we carried ourselves and we’ve lost that.
Look we now have a blk president and first lady(dark skinned) & some of us(lower tier) are still acting out. Why is that? I’ma say what too many of us don’t want to say okay. You can’t recycle every piece of trash.
king I agree with you that upper class and middle class Blacks are not somehow responsible for the pathologies of lower class Blacks. The only problem is that lower class Blacks are also not “responsible” for each other’s pathologies
thank you king and I feel this way.
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“As I said the other day, what you and others have to understand about what you’re seeing is that the Black community isn’t as monolithic as it may seem. For more understanding on this point, please checkout the HBO hit series, The Wire. It shows you what has happened to urban America and in particular, Black Americans, over the past roughly half a century.
I’ve already mentioned Eugene Robinson’s book Disintergration, which I would highly urge you and the others here to checkout. In it he makes the case quite clearly that the Black community has broken up into several subgroupings in the years since the Civil Rights era. Simply put and in a nutshell, those who were able to take advantage of the new opportunities that opened up in around that time, were able to move out. Jim Crow forced more middle class Blacks to live with their lower class brethren, not in and of itself a big problem, but let’s face it, often these two groups want and aspire towards different things. Moreover, the kinds of antisocial behaviors and crime tends to come from the lower classes, again, as The Wire aptly depicts.”
In my opinion, such “disintegration” is on the whole a good thing. I think “black America” could be overly cohesive, to the point where the individuality and experimentation needed for social advancement and flourishing are stifled. I’ve been arguing for the autonomy of the mixed population (going overboard at times) for a while but I also think that other segments of the African-descended population should be able to develop new identities and cultural repertoires. I don’t believe there’s any danger in this. As far as I can tell, white people aren’t much into “monolithic” whiteness (anymore) and “Hispanic” is more a government-created subpopulation than an organic social group. The development of an autonomous black middle class culture, insulated from the problems of the underclass, could actually serve as a source of inspiration for those blacks who are farther down on the social ladder, so that the entire “race” is lifted up.
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@ Chic noir
“…Kamuela the thing is we’ve always faced racism in this country and at times far worse than what we have today. But we didn’t kill each like like we do today. We had more pride in how we carried ourselves and we’ve lost that…”
By the way its Kwamla not Kamuela ?!!
So I guess you believe then there must be something inherently wrong or sick infesting lower class African American Blacks?
What is it?
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kwamla So I guess you believe then there must be something inherently wrong or sick infesting lower class African American Blacks?
What is it?
No I do not. I’m a prole(hs) blk btw.
It’s not just one reason why lower class blks are having many problems. it’s many
I think lower class blks esp the younger ones are very much influenced by what popular culture tells them to be.
I call it “the MTV/BET blk person”
broken families
child neglect and abuse
low self esteem and it’s manifestations.
knowing that they aren’t really wanted or valued by the society at large.
etc…
I think you give white people too much power. I hate when blk people talk about white racism without acknowledging the role that we play in the problems in the hood. If every white person vanished from America to tomorrow, then what? Do you think the hood would be a better safer place to
live?
By the way its Kwamla not Kamuela ?!!
I apologize
*chic noir blushes*
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FG The development of an autonomous black middle class culture, insulated from the problems of the underclass, could actually serve as a source of inspiration for those blacks who are farther down on the social ladder, so that the entire “race” is lifted up.
this is what W.E.D Dubois was hoping for.
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@ Randy
“2. It undermines successful minorities. For example, I believe that Abagond is some type of software developer. Suppose he studies hard and works hard and deserves his success, yet because of explicit and implicit AA, people he interacts with throughout his career will wonder, “diversity hire?”.”
Right. Because what’s most important is what white people think!
Oh wait.
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” Someone once told me that dubious wasn’t very respected in anti-racist circles. Anyone know why?
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Meant to quote Chick Noir about Dubois.
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To jas0burns:
people he interacts with throughout his career will wonder, “diversity hire?”.”
Right. Because what’s most important is what white people think!
Like it or not.. if the person across from you deciding to hire (or fire) you is White.. then yes… it is important what White people think. (I don’t think Abagond would disagree with this..)
One can lose one’s business or job as a supervisor because of one bad hire. (especially in a smaller business… it’s happened to me.. FWIW the person was White..) Like it or not, I get the impression that AA does create a sense of inferiority towards people who are supposed to benefit from it.
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Affirmative Action is simply a tool. You can use the hammer to crush your brother-in-law’s skull, or you can use it to build a children’s hospital. AA is the same way, it all depends on how carefully and to what purpose it is used.
I work for a Cilvil Engineering firm (pursuit marketing). By time it was even possible for Black Civil Engineering firms to be successfully established, all of the giants had already been in business for years. They had paved, planned, and connected the whole country. They had ALL of the necessary experience and expertise. They had also forged long-standing relationships with vendors, construction, and specialty companies, who handled all of the support functions. Ninety-five percent (95%) of the people who worked in the Civil Engineering field were White. All of the C.E.O.s, Vice Presidents, and Project Managers were White. Even the secretaries and receptionists were White.
There was NO WAY for Black-owned Civil Engineering firms to get a foothold in the industry… the opportunity had simply long past.
After all, would you hire a brand new minority Civil Engineering firm, with no experience, to design a major city center or your primary transportation systems? Would you allow them to learn on the job, just to “help a brotha out?” Of course not. The larger, all White companies didn’t see this as prejudice, but as simply practicality. As time went on, they would be willing, of course, to add more qualified Black Engineers to their own companies, but it was simply too late for Black engineers to found and lead their own Civil Engineering company.
But then the federal government, followed by the states, and cities began REQUIRING large companies to partner with smaller Minority-owned engineering firms and give to them 15% to 20% of the workload. At first there were many waivers, because there were not enough Minority firms out there, but as the demand was established, Black engineers began breaking away and starting their own businesses to fill the demand.
Of course, not everyone who hung out a shingle was good at what they did, but soon enough, all the large companies were falling all over themselves competing for the minority engineering groups who proved to be smart, reliable, and consistent. These soon gained good reputations for coming through in every pinch, and for producing an excellent work product.
Now, did people in the industry know that there was a federal/state/city requirement to hire a minority business? Of course they did. But they also knew who did a good job and who didn’t. So, in the end nobody cared what got the Black-owned engineering company onto the project, they were just happy that they did reliable work.
And that is the answer. It’s all about good work. Nobody really cares how you got into a position as long as you prove yourself worthy of the position once you’re there. If you do a great job, nobody is asking if you’re an affirmative action hire, and nobody cares.
I consider this old canard about White people not knowing whether you got into the position by merit or by quota to be somewhat misleading. Truth is, if you’re good for the company and good as a person, it doesn’t ever come up.
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To King:
And that is the answer. It’s all about good work. Nobody really cares how you got into a position as long as you prove yourself worthy of the position once you’re there. If you do a great job, nobody is asking if you’re an affirmative action hire, and nobody cares.
I consider this old canard about White people not knowing whether you got into the position by merit or by quota to be somewhat misleading. Truth is, if you’re good for the company and good as a person, it doesn’t ever come up.
Then it sounds as if, at least for the construction trade, it is working as intended. For some competitive civil service jobs (Firefighter comes to mind..) I have definitely detected some resentment. Considering that prop 209 was voted into place in liberal California.. it also seems to be a consideration at the academic level also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_209_(1996)
I think a large number of Whites understand the morality behind Affirmative Action for Black Americans whose ancestors were slaves but it is has now been broadened to also apply to Latinos, the large majority of which immigrated to the US voluntarily (or born to such immigrants) since the abolishment of Jim Crow.
AA apparently no longer applies to White women for college admission (women now represent 57% of all college graduates..http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm) but it does apply for such jobs as Firefighting, Police Work, and some construction work.
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To jas0nburns:
FG seemed to assert that a reduction of crime in urban areas (committed by lower income Black people) would reduce prejudice towards Blacks.
You asserted that “Whites really aren’t affected by black violent crime rates.”
Whites aren’t affected by violent black crime rates because most Whites avoid areas of Black poverty in urban areas. Why bring this up..? Because such avoidance of this population leads to balkanization of cities and suburbs and issues over housing for Blacks. Public school systems are also dramatically affected. Even so I am pretty sure most Whites would rather have their children attend school with this guy’s kids:
as opposed to the kids of these guys (unless they also looked like these guys):
“If the point was to stay away from people who commit the majority of violent crimes against whites.”
Well the majority of the population is White… (and most Hispanics are included in those statistics for crime figures..) and two.. as I said most Whites tend to vigorously avoid areas with high concentrations of poor Black people. So it follows that much of the crime that they would experience would be committed by Whites (or Latinos) and not Black people since they are around Whites much more than Blacks. That doesn’t mean they would be safer in poor urban Black areas since the residents of those areas certainly aren’t safer than suburban and most urban Whites. Quite the contrary. Even so.. I am quite sure I would be safer in a Black church in a so called “ghetto” than in a bar with a bunch of intoxicated younger White guys. I have had enough experience with the later to know avoid bars even though I enjoy live rock music.
Whites (all humans..) weigh probabilities for threat.. generally the older you are the better you are at assessing those threats…(and less tolerant of being around such threats..)
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“It’s all about good work. Nobody really cares how you got into a position as long as you prove yourself worthy of the position once you’re there. If you do a great job, nobody is asking if you’re an affirmative action hire, and nobody cares.”
Agreed. How you do your job is what matters.
The whispering would only matter if there was resentment/racism against the individual.
Same as if you got a position in a company run by a family member. Maybe people would say you were only hired because so and so is your father/sister/cousin. So what?
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chic noir
“…I think you give white people too much power. I hate when blk people talk about white racism without acknowledging the role that we play in the problems in the hood. If every white person vanished from America to tomorrow, then what? Do you think the hood would be a better safer place to
live? …””
You see this is the point… The ideology of white supremacy affects everyone on this planet regardless of what color or race they are. But it does not affect everyone, regardless of what color or race they are, in the same way…
To put it simply. It affects both Black and white. Its not that white people themselves are the cause of Black peoples problems. And in the same way it is not Black people who are the cause, the traumas and fears many white people face.
The beliefs we all inherit from the societies we live under act to shape, influence and determine our views, our behaviours, our thoughts our actions. That is unless we challenge them. And even then we will still be affected because its impossible to step outside. Try it!!!
Power lies with those upholding or imposing the ideology of superior/inferior beliefs and these can be both Black and white!!!
Lets accept everyone is responsible for their own problems and situations. We all have the unique God given power to change things for ourselves. And For the better or worse.
Most of the dominant beliefs (programming) we inherit from society, in one form or another, tell us: Black people and all other POC are LESS than white people.
LESS meaning something that can be translated in all manner of negative ways. So right from the start there is a basic inequality that has been set up. Its an uneven playing field.
Now if this INEQUALITY in belief and action disappeared as a dominant factor in society tomorrow would the hood, as you say, be any safer as a place? I assume you mean in terms of crime?
No, of course it wouldn’t. But it would be step in the right direction in making it possible. Don’t you think?
Thats because the problems in the “hood” – most crimes – are rooted in inequality not just in the people themselves.
The only alternative to this way of thinking is that it must be something innate in the peoples concerned. That is why I posed the question: What is it?
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Very interesting article on the black middle class.
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/649288.html
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You know what, I think I’ll take this issue up along with Chuck Ross’ post(s) on the matter; it’ll make for good reading on my upcoming blog. I can flesh things out the way I really want to over there. Stay tuned…
O.
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jas0nburns said: “Right. Because what’s most important is what white people think!”
That’s quite a glib response, and unfortunately one shared by many people. The short answer is that you usually do need to care what your co-workers think.
Almost all businesses are collaborative enterprises regardless of the industry. Trust and teamwork are essential. To be successful, you need to hire the best qualified and the best fit for your company or department given its particular idiosyncrasies.
Except at the lowest levels, simply employing a “qualified” person is insufficient to maximize your opportunities for success. This puts the livelihood of the employees and other stakeholders at risk. At the higher managerial levels, developing and maintaining interpersonal relationships is often the primary job function.
Whether applicable to a particular situation or not, the existence of explicit and implicit AA can undermine the trust required for teams to be successful.
I believe that this can ultimately handicap minorities and can undermine their credibility in the workplace, further reinforcing the harmful stereotypes that they’re not smart enough or hard working enough to succeed on their own. Rather than deprecating the idea of “black pathology”, AA helps to sustain it.
BTW, the last person who made a comment to me about whether a new employee was a “diversity hire” was not himself white.
King,
You raise interesting points which bear further discussion, but given that this post does not focus on AA as a whole, perhaps there will be a more appropriate opportunity later on to do so.
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“That’s quite a glib response, To be successful, you need to hire the best qualified and the best fit for your company or department given its particular idiosyncrasies. ”
Sure it’s glib if you disagree, succinct if you agree.
Anyway, often POC are seen as less qualified just because of their POC-ness. It tends to count against them. Also, If someone is qualified for their position whether or not they are a diversity hire shouldn’t be an issue.
I know there’s this imaginary scenario where you have this awesomely qualified amazing white candidate and then “THE GUHVERMINT” forces you to pick the less qualified black person. What a travesty!
That’s about as realistic as the hiring scenario we all hear about in elementary school… Grown up you is up against someone with the exact same college record as you, so they go all the way back to your 3rd grade test scores to determine who get’s the job.
Is affirmative this awesome perfect thing? No. Is it the lesser of 2 evil’s? Absolutely.
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” King,
You raise interesting points which bear further discussion, but given that this post does not focus on AA as a whole, perhaps there will be a more appropriate opportunity later on to do so”.
Further discussion of off-topic points is allowed here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/
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To jas0nburns:
Anyway, often POC are seen as less qualified just because of their POC-ness.
That depends… I’m in California and I have seen whole industries switch from being staffed by a majority Black workforce (janitors) or White workforce (construction) to majority Latino workforce. I doubt many people think that happened because of POC-ness. The same things has/is happening for the IT workforce except the replacement are Asian.
The bottom line is that for most business being the same ethnicity as your boss can help you get hired (or retained) but if a cheaper/better group comes along your backside could very well be history. If your company doesn’t shift or make adjustments if your competitor is hiring a cheaper / more efficient workforce then eventually your business is history.
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To jas0nburns:
That’s about as realistic as the hiring scenario we all hear about in elementary school..
Do you/ Have you owned/run your own business or been in a position to make hiring/firing decisions..?
I have… and the smaller the business.. the more hardcore/decisive you have to be with your staff.
The bottom line in a business is the bottom line … eg whether or not your employees are making you money.
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BTW, my point above was AN EXAMPLE of AA working well. But I’m not saying that it ALWAYS works well.
In some cases, governments arrange unrealistic set-asides. Blacks are underrepresented in some fields, simply because there is little interest in that field within the Black community.
In such cases, employers have been known warehouse any Black person who looks to be minimally qualified to fill the position. These warm bodies qualify the company to get contracts from governmental agencies but don’t do much real work. This kind of abuse of AA causes resentment and anger. Imagine being laid off from your job when there are people still working that are being paid to do essentially nothing.
My Point was that AA is a tool that can be used with skill or recklessly.
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@ milton
Yes, I am involved with hiring decisions at the small business I work for.
“The bottom line in a business is the bottom line … eg whether or not your employees are making you money.”
True. Your point I take it, is that this goal must conflict with the principals of AA? I don’t believe that to be true. If you believe an employee isn’t going to make you money, than that employee isn’t qualified and therefor isn’t an equation in any discussion pertaining to AA.
In my mind AA is about making a diverse workplace a company value. Something to shoot for that’s all. If you do that honestly and with integrity that’s what you’ll end up with. It’s not about sacrificing productivity in order to satisfy a liberal agenda. It’s not about picking the less qualified candidate. That’s alarmist, scare tactic sh*t.
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jas0nburns,
If the employees at a firm or department come to believe that “diversity” is being actively selected for, then other minority employees who were genuinely “ideal candidates” may now not be seen that same light.
Thus it seems that high achieving minority workers may actually suffer the most from explicit and implicit AA, furthering the “pathology” stereotype.
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“then other minority employees who were genuinely “ideal candidates” may now not be seen that same light.”
Only if they suck at their job. If someone is good at what they do people have a tendency to respect that. I mean in almost every company I’ve worked for several employees got their jobs because they know someone who works there. So why isn’t everyone up in arms about how unfair that is? Is that more fair than AA?
A lot of this anti-AA stuff tends to center around worst case scenarios I see. I would agree with KING that it wouldn’t work in every case though.
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“Thus it seems that high achieving minority workers may actually suffer the most from explicit and implicit AA, furthering the “pathology” stereotype.”
Actually no.
Because high achieving minority employees, (like high achieving White employees) differentiate themselves by their achievements.
-Nobody cares if the Employee of the Year was hired because of Affirmative Action.
-Nobody cares if the the No. 1 Salesperson was hired due to a minority set-aside.
It only becomes a problem when the AA hire is not a high achiever and is suspected of being average or less than average.
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Oops! Jason already answered it.
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We’re going back and forth about “best employee” and “worst employee” scenarios, where the conclusions would be obvious. Most workers fall in between those extremes.
Outside of purely technical or manual positions, it may not be easily knowable how capable a given person is, especially at larger companies.
For those at managerial levels and above, workers are often responsible for developing and implementing strategies, requiring trust from others, and without immediate feedback as to the quality of those decisions.
In these quite common situations, one must rely on the faith that unknown or distantly known management has hired only those who were the very best fit for that position. Uncertainty and mistrust easily leads to failure.
We’ve laid out our positions here, and so I won’t beat this horse further.
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“Because high achieving minority employees, (like high achieving White employees) differentiate themselves by their achievements.”
I would even say average achieving employees wouldn’t be an issue. It’s only in situations where someone is obviously inept that “diversity hire” problems would come up. Unless you’ve already stocked your company with people who would assume any POC was a diversity hire in which case I don’t know what to tell you.
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@ Randy
So then, basically, you’re worried about the people who nobody can tell if they’re doing well or not???
You’re concerned that the entire team will simply assume that such a person (if they are a minority or a female) will be seen as a possible “diversity hire” and that will lead to mistrust and eventual failure?
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The #1 beneficiaries of crime reduction in the inner cities would be their residents, many of whom are killed or wounded in these crimes and multitudes more who live with the daily fear of succumbing to them. Secondary beneficiaries would be middle class whites and blacks who would no longer be worried about traveling into such areas, as well as blacks in general who would experience a reduction in racism directed at them.
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King,
I have to Thank you and give you “big ups” for the Gladwell article…he described the “Jamaican” pathology of old quite well…
He alluded to the fact that we are an arrogant lot that likes to pride ourselves on fighting for what we have and this attitude gets us in trouble with the other islanders at times (i.e. Usain Bolt)
I already have my piece of land ready for retirement back on the island because the things I see in this country (USA) makes me cringe….it really is a “familiarity breeds contempt” attitude between black and white Americans but then again, every country has this issue…someone has to be at the bottom…crabs need someone to pull back into the bucket.
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Like I said, I plan to deal with this whol ball of wax this coming weekend. In the meantime though, for those who wish to take up the matter of Affirimative Action, question:
What does any of that have to do with the question of “Black pathology”? Please explain? How does punishing the Black middle class, going to have any impact on Black pathologies that mostly impact the lower Black classes? I do not understand such thinking. Again, please explain?
O.
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@ Obsidian
I believe it was Randy’s assertion that AA feeds into black pathology.
“If black Americans wish to increase these for themselves, how will that arise? It must come from within. Nothing else accomplishes this goal. Affirmative action and other programs which attempt to exogenously provide a “social lift” have the exact opposite effects.”
It’s just another way of saying the same thing over and over. That It’s black people that need to change not society.
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King said: “You’re concerned that the entire team will simply assume that such a person (if they are a minority or a female) will be seen as a possible “diversity hire” and that will lead to mistrust and eventual failure?”
Somewhat. If a person in a leadership position lacks perceived credibility for any reason, the potential for team failure can significantly increase.
At a previous large corporate employer, I heard this concern expressed twice, once by a non-white male regarding a new non-white hire and by a white female regarding a new female hire.
The idea was that if employees began to suspect that the company was making hires based upon demography rather than on qualifications and best fit, that other members of those demographies might be thought of as social hires rather than competency hires, a perception which would work to their detriment.
Obsidian asked: “What does any of that have to do with the question of “Black pathology”? Please explain?”
I believe that AA can damage the interests of minorities in two ways:
1. Minorities can be seen as unable compete on their own without special help, thus perpetuating “pathology” stereotypes.
2. The credibility of high caliber minority workers can be undermined. As mentioned above, if a company is perceived as trying to artificially increase the number of a certain demographic, other members of that demographic may be thought of as “diversity hires” or “diversity promotions” themselves, and not as persons who were the most outstanding candidates for their positions.
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“The idea was that if employees began to suspect that the company was making hires based upon demography rather than on qualifications and best fit”
Except that this is a false dichotomy. A person can clearly be hired based both on demographic considerations AND their qualifications.
In my company, hiring with demographic considerations simply means breaking away from hiring exclusively from the alma maters and favorites of our company executives, and sending recruiters to a larger cluster of more diverse universities. Sometimes it takes the recruiters out of this region, and sometimes they end up on the campus of universities that they’ve never heard of before.
But guess what? You find out that Howard University actually does crank out some pretty good engineers, and Spelman College churns out good business administrators, and small schools like Jarvis Christian College actually produce bright and business-ready graduates.
It’s rarely about finding people who aren’t qualified, unless there is a real shortage a given minority group in any given field.
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To Jas0nburns and Obsidian:
It’s just another way of saying the same thing over and over. That It’s black people that need to change not society.
No…at least that’s not what I believe, Starting in the 1960s – AA had several goals…
1) Break up the old (White) boys clubs.
2) Give opportunities to group who are locked out of certain industries.
3) Tip the balance to an underrepresented person who did as well or almost as well as the middle class White guy.
I think those scenarios needed to be rearranged via affirmative action and have actually worked pretty well.
However the goals of AA have shifted over time and sometimes they are politicized by certain people. (Most often these people are White..) I saw some comments on an online forum discussing the city of Chicago’s action to toss out a test for Firefighters. The test had been designed by a Black psychologist specifically to be race neutral but unfortunately a substantially larger share of the White population was passing the test than the Black population so the test was challenged in court and thrown out. In reality I have no idea whether the test was valid or not but the vitriol from (what I presumed were Whites..) was palpable.
In the era of affirmation action (and I know AA is not the cause of this..) Black male participation in the workforce has dropped dramatically as has Black wealth. (but not income..) I’d say a big cause of this is outsourcing jobs overseas (and to some degree replacing poor Black and White workers with desperate Latinos.)
http://www.urban.org/books/blackmales/preface.cfm
I tend to think poorer Americans (of all races but Blacks are being affected disproportionately..) by free trade policies which send jobs to other countries.
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So, I’m going to say something. And it’s going to be racist.
However, it pertains to the topic of black pathology so here goes.
When I heard about that 45 year old dude getting attacked recently in that metro station by 11-12 year old kids, I knew they were black way before I had that confirmed.
Obviously, this doesn’t mean I now think all black people go around attacking white dudes in transit stations.
But WTF is that? Why was it so obvious to me? And why does it make me so much more uncomfortable than when a white person does something like that?
Then when I watched the video, It kind of made me rethink the whole de facto white supremacy thing as well. I think the reason that guy didn’t fight back is because he was afraid of hitting a black kid in a tunnel full of black people even in self-defense.
That’s real power as far as I’m concerned. Just as real as being over represented in the media or any other white privilege.
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Again, AA does sometimes get abused, and when it does, the abuses should always be corrected. Also, AA should not go on forever. At some point, it must end. But, at present, I can still see some legitimate applications for it.
I was once working for an advertising agency and the receptionist quit. I was still a lowly intern at the time. Anyway, we were having a creative staff meeting when the boss asked if anyone knew a dependable young person who could do the job. Aside from myself, the entire room was White and Jewish. One of the copywriters said that her neighbor had a daughter who was interested in advertising. The next week, the girl was hired, the position was never even advertised.
I have also noticed that as I go through my online company phone directory I find MANY sets of people with the same last names. I’ve asked about a few of them, and it’s almost always a father who’s got his son in, or sometimes an Uncle who got his niece a job, or a sister who recommended her brother for an open position. In the vast majority of the cases, these have all been White people.
Now, I don’t consider either of these cases to be prejudice. Nobody was intentionally trying to cut Blacks out of a chance at being hired… but is still turned out that way, in both cases. The fact is that there are a LOT more White people in the corporate world and a big part of the reason for that is based on the benefits passed down by their ancestors based on centuries of racism. Affirmative action is just supposed to give employers an incentive to think maybe… just maybe, we shouldn’t do what’s familiar or easy this time… maybe we need to actually go out of our way to give non-White candidates an opportunity.
And besides, Blacks are less than 13% of the population of the United States. Subtract from that number those who are in prison, and those who dropped out of high school. So how many jobs are hardworking White people really losing to the what… the remaining 6%??? And how many of those are even hired based on Affirmative Action?
I get the idea that, if the real figures ever came out, the percentage of actual Black people who are hired, based on Affirmative Action, would be around 2%. OH! The unfairness of it all!
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@jas0nburns:
The important question you asked is: “But WTF is that? Why was it so obvious to me? And why does it make me so much more uncomfortable than when a white person does something like that?”
That’s a very good question, but it may be one that you have to delve within yourself to find the answer for. If the perpetrators of a crime make you MORE uncomfortable, simply because they’re NOT white, then there is something internal and ingrained that needs to be brought out to the light and examined, if you so choose.
I used to cringe at every report of a crime with a black perpetrator. Now I cringe at reports of horrific crimes, and the race/color/ethnicity of the perpetrator is irrelevant. I was one of the ‘brainwashed’ ones, due to my upbringing, but I finally tore off the rose-colored glasses so I could see the real world, warts and all. I had to dance with my own demons first, though – and that can be a very unpleasant thing for anyone. ‘Tis the caveat…
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One black guy once said to me: “if somebody is bad, he is bad no matter what color of his skin. That’s the way it is”. This was in States. I think that is correct.
Now, regarding this case of kids attacking the old white man: if there were so many blacks around, why not one of them stepped in??
This guy who said this thing to me, he once chased a rapist robber out of our apartment complex. Actually saved a white woman from being raped that night. So…
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Maybe I wasn’t making myself clear.
What does Affirmative Action, and by extension the Black middle classes, have to do with inner city Black on Black crime, or even Black on White crime? How does eliminating Affirmative Action, which almost always benefits middle class Blacks and above, bring down the violent inner city Black crime rate? Please explain? Thanks.
O.
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Obs, I think the argument was that AA encourages Black pathologies (deviation from a healthy norm) in middle class Black Americans.
Pathologies are not limited to crime, violence, or the inner city.
Unless, I am wrong.
How are you defining “pathology?”
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@sam
“Now, regarding this case of kids attacking the old white man: if there were so many blacks around, why not one of them stepped in??”
I think it was because the older man was white. And that’s what I’m worried about. I mean where were all the black people who “aren’t like that” when dude was getting hammered? Where were the people who “just saw his humanity” and all that.
@ sepultura
“That’s a very good question, but it may be one that you have to delve within yourself to find the answer for.”
That incident makes me feel like I would be seen as the other. Someone to be attacked or not helped. I don’t think it would have gone down the same way if everyone was the same race. Race was a factor in the incident and so it’s a factor in how I view the incident.
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King,
Pathology is usually spoken of in terms of the lower classes, not the middle and upper classes. And in any event, I thought we were discussing things such as violent street crime, drugs and the like, which is much less likely to occur among middle class African Americans. I am trying to understand what Affirmative Action has to do with the aforementioned street crimes and the like, and thus far I have yet to read anyone connect the dots.
I await someone to get the job done.
As for the notion that AA is a breeding ground for “pathology” among middle class Blacks, I hyave yet to see any evidence of this. Perhaps someone can provide some?
O.
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It’s probably the same reason blacks go crazy when a WP commits a violent crime against a BP but don’t have nearly as much to say about black on black violence. Something about the other that just makes people more fearful. It’s the unknown factor. Will they see me as a fellow human?
It’s the idea that people won’t help you because of your skin color. People will just say “meh who cares, it’s just a _____ person” It’s terrifying. Being surrounded by people but at the same time totally alone. That’s what makes people want to retreat back among “their own”
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@ Obsidian
There are no dots. Look who brought it up.
It doesn’t really have anything to do with pathology. The idea is ridiculous.
I for one was just following Randy’s derail once Abagond gave the OK.
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Obsidian:
If you remember, you were one of the ones who argued that I should allow affirmative action on this thread:
Hathor said:
“You cannot speak about Black Pathology and separate it from some of the other topics such as AA, HBD and The Bell Curve. All of those critics of AA, the believers in HBD and the Bell Curve are derivatives of belief in Black Pathology.
Black Pathology gives some the self serving reliability on psychology and statistics, throw them together, then create some mumbo jumbo; voila.”
Obsidian said:
“I agree with Hathor; it’s your call Abagond, but I don’t think it’s possible to keep Affirmative Action out of the discussion here. It’s a big player in the mix.”
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“It’s the idea that people won’t help you because of your skin color. People will just say “meh who cares, it’s just a _____ person” It’s terrifying. Being surrounded by people but at the same time totally alone. That’s what makes people want to retreat back among “their own”
I guess It really depends on who’s in the crow, Jas0n.
Sometimes, you have quite a bit of heroism in spite of the “color divide” as was the case with Bobby Green Jr. and others during the LA Riots of 1992.
From Wiki
“Reginald Denny was rescued by an unarmed, African American civilian named Bobby Green Jr. who, seeing the assault live on television, rushed to the scene and drove Denny to the hospital using the victim’s own truck, which carried twenty-seven tons of sand.”
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-156616013.html
I was in LA during the riots, and I remember quite a few Whites being rescued, hidden under blankets, and driven to safety by Black resident,s concerned for their safety.
So many years later many of those stories (reported on T.V. back during the riot) are lost.
Sometimes people just chicken out, but sometimes people will help at great risk to themselves.
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@king: right, they just get forgotten. This black dude who saved that white woman in our building was the one of these who do that kind of stuff that nobody remembers afterwards.
In this incident the cops arrived to the scene and started to question me about the rape attempt even though I was late on the scene :D. And my pal Steven was standing three feet away from me. I pointed him out and one of the cops looked at him, this was a quite big guy and not too nice looking, and said: Oh, it was you…
These things remind me of one of the slogans some bikers have: When we do wrong, nobody forgets; when we do right, nobody remembers.
Fits for many cases.
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Abagond,
Yes, that’s right. I said that because I know that those who want to drag AA into just any and every discussion will want to do so here, and I think they should be heard, so I can then pose the questions I just did above; as we all can see, they don’t seem so uick to be forthcoming with a response to said questions, now don’t they? The real deal is that AA is little more than a personal axe to grind with these folks, something I plan to address on my new and improved blog, along with some other things you and others have said, very, very soon. So, stay tuned…
O.
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So, Obsidian. Are planning on starting a blog anytime soon?
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jasonburns I think it was because the older man was white. And that’s what I’m worried about. I mean where were all the black people who “aren’t like that” when dude was getting hammered? Where were the people who “just saw his humanity” and all that.
maybe a few were there but they were afraid to do anything. Had they steped the kids may have turned on them.
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Jason,
Yes, I most certainly am; it’ll be officially (re)launching in a few days. I’ll make the announcement here when it does, so stay tuned…
O.
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uncle mu,
you launch your blogs like major movie studios unveiling trailers for summer blockbusters.
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And besides, Blacks are less than 13% of the population of the United States. Subtract from that number those who are in prison, and those who dropped out of high school. So how many jobs are hardworking White people really losing to the what… the remaining 6%??? And how many of those are even hired based on Affirmative Action?
I have always wondered what the big fuss about Affirmative Action was in the States, as the numbers are not large enough to make a huge dent in the job markets and post-secondary education.
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Herneith I have always wondered what the big fuss about Affirmative Action was in the States, as the numbers are not large enough to make a huge dent in the job markets and post-secondary education.
It’s just another reason to justify their racial animbus. Find something however small and make it into something bigger. it’s also used by the ruling class to keep those further down the food chain fighting over scraps.
maybe there is a bit of “mighty y-t” in this too.
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Chic,
LOL. Yea, you could say something like that. 🙂
I’m expecting to see you there t the big party!
O.
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Obsidian said: “I think they should be heard, so I can then pose the questions I just did above; as we all can see, they don’t seem so uick to be forthcoming with a response to said questions, now don’t they?”
I responded to your question in a comment above.
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uncle mu, I can’t wait 🙂
speaking of blk pathology, here is a video of an uncle correcting his nephew who was attempting to go down the wrong path.
do you agree or disagree with his actions.
abagond, this may deserve an entire post of it’s own from you. What would you do if one day one of your sons did what this young man did.
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Has anyone watched the ABC show, “What Would You Do?”
Well, on one of the episodes, they had a white boy trying to steal a bike and a few people called 911 but most passed by him without a second look. When they changed actors to a black boy, the outcry was almost instantaneous. There was a huge white crowd encircled around the black actor. The black guy wasn’t even trying to break the chainlock for two seconds before someone always called him out. And finally, they had a blonde girl trying to steal a bike and get this. . . some adults actually tried to HELP her steal a bike! Even a grown man with his wife and kids was trying to help her even though he knew she was stealing it. I think White Women’s Tears might have had some part.
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@calculator-
I saw that episode. It’s funny how people will react to different situations.
there was a episode with a car which preety much had the same reaction.
there was one episode where an mom (actress) mistreated her nanny in a coffee shop. there was a white nanny and a blk nanny. More people came to the aid of the black nanny than the white nanny.
I think it made the white people in the shop feel very uncomforstable to see a white woman talking to her “help” in such a cold manner.
IIRC, the blk woman cried too.
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RG,
Replies below:
“What does any of that have to do with the question of “Black pathology”? Please explain?”
RG: I believe that AA can damage the interests of minorities in two ways:
1. Minorities can be seen as unable (to) compete on their own without special help, thus perpetuating “pathology” stereotypes.
O: How is it “pathological” to have benefitted from Affirmative Action? You haven’t made this clear; what you have done is suggested that the perceptions of others, presumably Whites, can be effected. Which may or may not be true.
2. The credibility of high caliber minority workers can be undermined. As mentioned above, if a company is perceived as trying to artificially increase the number of a certain demographic, other members of that demographic may be thought of as “diversity hires” or “diversity promotions” themselves, and not as persons who were the most outstanding candidates for their positions.
O: To date the only people who seem so very “concerned” about the “credibility” of AA hires and admits and the like, are Whites themselves and the very few Black Conservatives that are around – I say that because the latter truly are a distinct numerical minority. The vast majority of Black Americans don’t seem to have such concerns in the least, and that includes the current president, who, as president of Harvard’s Law Review, made it quite clear in an article he wrote for its journal that AA made it possible for him to be where he was at the time. General Colin Powell has also given AA props, and even Condoleeza Rice hasn’t taken a hard line on AA.
So it seems that the “concerns” of Whites and the handful of Black Conservatives is at the very least misplaced if not overrstated.
Especially when they don’t seem to have such “concerns” when legacy admits and hires and recipients of nepotism get prestigious positions and elite school spaces (*cough* GWB *cough*, etc, et al)
At any rate, you still have not made it clear what Affirmative Action which largely benefits middle class Blacks, has to do with violent street crime, which takes place almost entirely among lower class inner city dwelling Blacks, as the hit HBO drama The Wire clearly depicts, RG. Please explain and connect the dots for me?
O.
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Perhaps white people use AA to befriend black people. After all, wp don’t want to be seen as racist since it’ll just add to their all-star roster of diversity friends.
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@ Chic noir
ROFL!!! Yeah, sometimes a good whoopin’ saves you from a lot worse down the road! Better the belt than the bullet.
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@king- co sign that. Better his uncle than some real gangbangers getting ahold of him or even the police. a conviction* is darn near the end for a YBM
* also known as the mark of the beast. It’s as bad as having 666 across your forhead.
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To Obsidian:
Especially when they don’t seem to have such “concerns” when legacy admits and hires and recipients of nepotism get prestigious positions and elite school spaces (*cough* GWB *cough*, etc, et al)
This is getting further and further afield from the topic but your average working White person simply is not directly affected by the rather narrow scope of legacy admissions since very few Whites who are in the bottom 90% will be sending their children to a private college. In regards to GWB… there were numerous articles about his family’s money and connections (and everything those entail..) putting him in the White House. As for nepotism….yeah I’ve definitely seen Whites pissed off about that, especially when the son, daughter, brother, close buddy of the boss screws up. I was affected by nepotism about 17 years ago. Basically the company’s owner hired his brother for my position and I was terminated 2 weeks later. I am happy to say the company was shut down by the IRS 18 months later.
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“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a booking number on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no man might buy nor sell, save he that had the mark or the name of the WASP, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;
and his number is: CA 415 PC”
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Sista Y said:
If white racism is the reason for the stagnation of black progress in America white people are the last group we should be appealing to for help/recognition of the problem.
Menelik replies:
internalised African-American pathology borne of a bygone age (slavery), and exasperated by shifts in industry and the economy, are some of the primary reasons (as was the eradication of the Black Nationalist Movement to be replaced by a CIA-created Black feminism) African-Americans find themselves in their present socio-economic, and psycho-social malaise.
African-Americans main personal and collective problem is that they do not posses an exclusive, private, and intimate, African culture, and so therefore are at the economic and social mercy of other races who do posses an exclusive, private and intimate culture.
What African-Americans have in place of culture are a series of self-perpetuating pathologies within the home and wider society e.g. in education (they are the least successful) and employment (because they do not provide enough Black-owned business to employ their own kind).
Contrast the state of African-Americans with their African kith ‘n’ kin and see how astonishingly successful are continental Africans by comparison (e.g. the most highly qualified racial group in the US!) and you’ll see how dramatically the lack of an African culture has impacted on African-Americans!
This collective pathology can be reversed if or when an elite group of African-American organisations, and individuals, unite to lobby the US government (starting with their local congress men and women) to begin the process of re-culturalising African-Americans into a yet-to-decided West African cultural grouping (s).
Language will be CENTRAL to this re-Africanisation process. It will begin on a small-scale basis for a few years to measure its effectiveness, and then slowly but surely rolled out all over America.
Re-Africanising African-Americans is the only way that America can begin to eliminate most of its problems in the inner cities, and more specifically, within the Black family.
we have to put together a plan and then get lobbying: time is of the essence!
Menelik Charles
London UK
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Bro Obsidian,
Mr Chuck has done a post asking where your new blog is. I wondered myself. I have all the stuff (about a dozens posts) on a memory stick ready to pass on to you.
Menelik Charles
London UK
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@chikcnoir, king; 😀
yeah, uncle does this kid a favor. Seen these in my life too. Some snotnose kid is wanting to go criminal without any idea what it is all about and then they run back to mamma because some real life criminal has taken away their lunch money and mp3 and slapped them around.
Seriously, this kid does not understand what is the difference between movies and rap videos and reality. In reality there is nothing cool, nice nor romantic in living as criminal. It is very very hard and cold life and you do not Maybe go to jail, you will go to jail sooner or later, that is unless some of your collegues do you in before that. Or under.
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@chicknoir:
just watched the video again and maybe this uncle knows something about the subject. At least he knows that this kid does not know a didley about it and has been braggin gangabangin even though it was all lies. Kid does not understand that when real gangstas see his videos and then see him on the street, they don’t know that he was just some stupid kid bullshitting in on the Net. Uncle seems to know that too. Besides, he spanks this kid pretty easy despite he is very very angry 😀
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Just a bit of background noise about AA from the French perspective where the discussions to implement it are getting louder recently. The opinions of the different anti-racist groups are divided but there is a consensus about the basics.
The need to resort to affirmative action is an indicator for at least two fundamental ills (which are not mutually exclusive). First there must be the assumption – and indirectly admitting – that the entire employment and education landscape is indeed discriminatory by origin (“race”) and secondly, the suspicion (assumption?) that members of minority groups are less qualified or have inferior potential. The latter has been disproved countless times. The former is arguably more difficult to (dis)prove as it must be analysed on a case-by-case basis anyway.
However, those assumptions imply that there are some serious malfunctions that need to be addressed at the roots. Affirmative action is only nursing at the symptoms, like a pain killer, with the adverse effect that the underlying causes are ignored. It’s a plaster on an abscess. It can also provide a free ticket to certain people for continuing to be, or for some even to become, fundamentally racist. Along the lines of “Hey, you’ve got your AA so what are you complaining about?”
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Uncle Milton,
Replies below:
UM: This is getting further and further afield from the topic
O: No, it’s not. Abagond has officially given all of us the green light to take up the question of Affirmative Action within the broader question of “Black pathology”.
UM: but your average working White person simply is not directly affected by the rather narrow scope of legacy admissions since very few Whites who are in the bottom 90% will be sending their children to a private college.
O: Just like relatively few Blacks will ever benefit from Affirmative Action, since the vast majority of them have never and will never attend an exclusive private college either. This does not answer my questions about AA and its relation, real or perceived, to the topic of “pathologies” like violent street crime. You have yet to make that connection, as have Randy Garver.
O: Yes, but there hasn’t been a Ward Connerly type figure to emerge, demanding that nepotism come to an de jure and de facto end. Am I right about this?
UM: But an even bigger question emerges out of the statement you made above, UM, and that is this: if we both agree that most Whites and Blacks will NOT benefit from AA, WHY is there such a hew and cry made over it on the part of…wait for it…
WHITES?
Please explain?
UM: In regards to GWB… there were numerous articles about his family’s money and connections (and everything those entail..) putting him in the White House.
UM: As for nepotism….yeah I’ve definitely seen Whites pissed off about that, especially when the son, daughter, brother, close buddy of the boss screws up.
O: If indeed they are so “pissed off” why hasn’t there been a large scale movement on the matter; again, where is the Ward Connerlys of this issue, Unc?
UM: I was affected by nepotism about 17 years ago. Basically the company’s owner hired his brother for my position and I was terminated 2 weeks later. I am happy to say the company was shut down by the IRS 18 months later.
O: Your personal situation aside, I remain unconvinced at the White folks supposed “consternation” at nepotism and the like. After all, GWB was voted into office as POTUS – twice. Pretty strong endorsement of the practice, if you ask me.
And again, posing a salient question for all those out there who have a bee in their bonnett about AA:
Please explain specifically, what Affirmative Action has to do with reducing violent street crime, something that occurs almost exclusively among the lower classes of Blacks?
Holla back
O.
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MC,
Hey, I was hoping you’d pop up somewhere around where we normally hang out. Yes, the new blog will be starting up very soon, in a few days, and when it does you will be able to contact me, so if you have any of my previous posts by all means do send them to me (and that goes for anyone else out there that may have my previous blog’s posts saved or whatever). Stay tuned for more details…
O.
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Obsidian said: “1. How is it “pathological” to have benefitted from Affirmative Action? You haven’t made this clear; what you have done is suggested that the perceptions of others, presumably Whites, can be effected. Which may or may not be true.”
The role of perception is key to how I believe AA works against the interests of minorities. When a company employs explicit or implicit AA, the message is “this person belongs to a group of people who would otherwise be insufficiently qualified to earn this job on their own if we utilized a completely objective standard.”
In cases where AA is based on race, that race is thus potentially devalued in perception. Existing stereotypes about the underperformance of persons from that race are reaffirmed.
People from that group at the same company who are high achievers may be painted with that brush as well, potentially impairing their careers.
A similar dynamic occurs with the nepotism scenario which has been mentioned. If the son-in-law of the big boss is promoted to VP, people may consider his promotion to be based on nepotism rather than talent, thus undermining that man’s leadership potential. This can have critical implications down the line.
This concept is not specifically related to street crime, but in my opinion still fell under the heading of “black pathologies”, or more accurately named “perceived black pathologies”.
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“the message is “this person belongs to a group of people who would otherwise be insufficiently qualified to earn this job on their own if we utilized a completely objective standard.””
1. This is a twisted interpretation of AA.
2. If WP were capable of being completely objective when considering POC candidates we wouldn’t have a need for AA in the first place. Once you’ve seen qualified POC candidates passed on for less qualified white ones, you begin to see that this standard of “objectivity” is purely mythical. There is a bias towards whites in business. That bias in many cases overpowers objectivity on the part of the one doing the hiring. That’s really how it is Randy. Believe it. AA is an attempt to apply outside pressure in the opposite direction. Straighten the ship so to speak.
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the message is “this person belongs to a group of people who would otherwise be insufficiently qualified to earn this job on their own if we utilized a completely objective standard.”
Actually the message is:
“This person belongs to a group of people who would otherwise be overlooked because of long-standing, and historic, racially subjective stereotypes.”
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n cases where AA is based on race, that race is thus potentially devalued in perception. Existing stereotypes about the underperformance of persons from that race are reaffirmed.
That’s because the white folks who think like this, are probably racist to start. They begrudge any black person a job which they perceive the black person of robbing them of. To them there is no such thing as a qualified black person. They will always suspect the qualified ‘darkie’. I have seen this innumerable times in Canada where the black populace is something like 2.5% of the country, and they don’t even have an extensive equity program like Affirmative Action. As for what or how a white or white, views on this I could care less. Simply put, there is not enough blacks in Canada or the US, to put a dent in the educational or employment prospects of whites, period. The bottom line is, is that if you don’t perform once getting your foot in the door, you will not last long. When these clowns, I mean the powers that be misapply this program, the failures become the clarion call of racists such as yourself! You ain’t interested in nothing else unless it is to show how hard done by whites are, when they have to cede some ‘power’ or anything seen as belonging to whites. That’s it in a nutshell. Here’s a white pathology; delusions!
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Well said, Herneith!
But shouldn’t you be more worried about surly and arrogant Venusians?
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Just a shout from the old world again.
There is one “black pathology” or let’s call it minority “pathology” in Europe which is – choosing a career path that is not intrinsically profitable in terms of monetary value. Minorities over here tend to over-proportionally specialise in domains which are less likely to be lucrative than the so-called “boring” subjects such as, for instance, business, law or IT. One question is why is that? But another very relevant question is, are the so-called “boring” subjects overrated and possibly overpaid? Or why are they so over-proportionally more lucrative than equally socially relevant subjects such as natural science, social work, psychology, education or public domain?
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jas0nburns, Herneith, and King:
You somewhat appear to be discussing the merits and justifications of AA, which is further afield from the current topic. My comments strictly address the negative impact which AA can have on those who purportedly benefit from it.
Concerns about the negative impacts of AA have been mentioned to me by those in the relevant groups themselves.
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But shouldn’t you be more worried about surly and arrogant Venusians?
Not at all! My husband Tars took care of those fools years ago! Nah, it’s these gearboxes you have to be worried about! Saturnians! they have eyes in the back of their heads as well as crappy fashion sense!:
But seriously, I’m getting sick of these people who cloak their racism in phony concern for the ‘culluds’. they couldn’t give a sh*t about us! Their only concerns is to keep you in your place, that’s the gist of it.
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@ Randy
I would say it’s you’re mislabeling of white misconceptions and political distortions of reality as black pathology that have set us adrift.
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You somewhat appear to be discussing the merits and justifications of AA, which is further afield from the current topic.
I am not discussing the merit and justification of anything. I was responding to your assertions of blacks being perceived as pathological as a result of Affirmative Action. You are the one who characterized it as a particular black pathology. My assertion is this; the ones who believe that Affirmative Action is pathological, are the ones who are pathological, i.e. racist to start. There isn’t enough blacks in the US to put a dent in the educational or employment prospects of whites. I suppose you should be talking about black pathologies, Affirmative Action ain’t one of them unless you are referring to white folks reaction to it. Now that is pathological!
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RG,
Replies below:
RG: The role of perception is key to how I believe AA works against the interests of minorities. When a company employs explicit or implicit AA, the message is “this person belongs to a group of people who would otherwise be insufficiently qualified to earn this job on their own if we utilized a completely objective standard.”
O: Yes, but what I and others are telling you is that Black folks simply do not care what “others” think in the matter; in the matter, those “others”, don’t matter. For example, they cannot impede the success of said Black workers, not legally anyway. So they are free to think whatever they like; they are not free to make their thoughts the basis of company policy, because if they do and are found out, said aggrieved Black parties will be owning the company.
RG: In cases where AA is based on race, that race is thus potentially devalued in perception. Existing stereotypes about the underperformance of persons from that race are reaffirmed.
O: But so what? Who cares if a White cublicle dweller thinks that the Black CFO isn’t qualified?
RG: People from that group at the same company who are high achievers may be painted with that brush as well, potentially impairing their careers.
O: How so? What specific ways would their careers be impaired? Please explain, and in detail?
RG: A similar dynamic occurs with the nepotism scenario which has been mentioned. If the son-in-law of the big boss is promoted to VP, people may consider his promotion to be based on nepotism rather than talent, thus undermining that man’s leadership potential. This can have critical implications down the line.
O: Please cite well known examples? All of the evidence we have on the matter indicates the opposite. Again, GWB was voted into office no less than four times – twice as the governor of one of the biggest states in the union, and twice as president of the USA. There are many other examples.
RG: This concept is not specifically related to street crime, but in my opinion still fell under the heading of “black pathologies”, or more accurately named “perceived black pathologies”.
O: Yes, but you have not been able to make a case that one is directly or even indirectly linked to the other. I will take your and Uncle Milton’s silence on the matter as a tacit admission of failure on these counts.
O.
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jas0nburns and Herneith:
The phenomenon which I’m discussing does not exclusively pertain to race. Consider another example where employment or promotion is affected by non-meritorious factors: the nepotism hire.
If a company is known for giving hiring and promoting preference for family members of top management, one should not be surprised if doubt would arise about the quality of work and judgment of those beneficiaries.
Such doubt can and often does impair a manager’s ability to effectively lead.
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Abagond, you should do post on white pathologies.
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“If a company is known for giving hiring and promoting preference for family members of top management, one should not be surprised if doubt would arise about the quality of work and judgment of those beneficiaries.”
Even if those “nepotism” hires represented less than 5% of the total work force?
This keeps getting argued as if 30% of the work force is made up of AA hires. The number of BLACK people who are hired by corporations under AA is very, very, low.
MANY more White women have been hired under AA.
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Absolutely. Much less than 5% individuals own more than 80% of the worlds capital. And the tendency is rising. That should be reason enough to be concerned.
It’s not only nepotism within the same family. It’s plain favouritism.
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Obsidian,
Re: Pathologies and AA
I get the impression that the most (mostly White..) ardent supporters of AA appear to believe that the solution to some of the problems for some lower income Blacks (which Abagond lists as pathologies..) such as high rates of poverty and unemployment can be addressed with AA. Considering that employment levels for Black men and family wealth for Black families have (markedly) both dropped, relative to Whites, since AA was enacted I don’t think that is the case. (To be clear – I know that AA was not the cause…) When you set up your blog when can discuss it further.
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To Obsidian:
Your personal situation aside, I remain unconvinced at the White folks supposed “consternation” at nepotism and the like. After all, GWB was voted into office as POTUS – twice.
By definition electing someone to public office, unless all of the voters who voted that person were related to him, is not nepotism.
I make comments on the rest of your questions tonight. Busy day.
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@sam
exactly, I can recall reading about two YBM who were honor students who were killed as a result of posting gang member stuff on a face book page. It’s a shame how so many people feel the need to follow others. That boy is lucky to have an uncle who cares enough to teach him right from wrong. I’ve known people who were initiate into gangs via relatives.
@king- you made me giggle with your mark of the beast verse.
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@chicknoir: the problem is that these kids see all this bling bilg hip hop version of gang banging and confuse the virtual one with the real deal.
Prime example how wrong movies can be seen; the Godfather.
Now, almost averybody thinks that Michael Corleone is a hero of some sorts, a guy who defends his family, takes a revenge, but think: this is a guy who shoot two guys in a restaurant, to the head both and one of the victims is a police officer, he is a guy who arranges the muders of all his competitors, who murders his sisters husband etc.
That is right. Alpacino looking Michael Corleone is an ice cold ruthless gangster who kills anybody on his way as casually as he kills a fly. Now how many people get that? And yet, it is there for all to see!! It is out in the open. Right in front of our eyes.
Scarface is another movie, depicting treatcherous cuban cocaine cowboy who goes like kamikaze from zero to the top and collapses because of drugs and paranoia, total psychopath if any. He even kills his best buddy! And yet, for many Tony Montana is a hero! Go figure…
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sam,
And yet, for many Tony Montana is a hero! Go figure…
Sam you have no idea how much I hate scarface. I hate that so many young men look up to that man. SMH
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Uncle Milton,
Replies below:
UM: Obsidian,
Re: Pathologies and AA
I get the impression that the most (mostly White..) ardent supporters of AA appear to believe that the solution to some of the problems for some lower income Blacks (which Abagond lists as pathologies..) such as high rates of poverty and unemployment can be addressed with AA.
O: Then said ardent White supporters of AA couldn’t be more wrong. AA wasn’t designed to address the needs and interests of lower class Blacks.
UM: Considering that employment levels for Black men and family wealth for Black families have (markedly) both dropped, relative to Whites, since AA was enacted I don’t think that is the case. (To be clear – I know that AA was not the cause…) When you set up your blog when can discuss it further.
O: I’m very much looking forward to it! The blog will officially launch in a few days…
“Your personal situation aside, I remain unconvinced at the White folks supposed “consternation” at nepotism and the like. After all, GWB was voted into office as POTUS – twice.”
UM: By definition electing someone to public office, unless all of the voters who voted that person were related to him, is not nepotism.
O: No, it is not. However, being the son of a former POTUS, who himself is a member of a very prominent family, one who has considerable connections and is very wealthy, certainly doesn’t hurt either. It instantly puts you into prime consideration as a political candidate, and indeed this isn’t the first time something like this has happened; we saw it with the Kennedys and before that, the Adamses. The point I make is made: Americans have no problem with nepotism, indeed, if anything, it is as American as apple pie itself.
Except when Black folk do it.
UM: I make comments on the rest of your questions tonight. Busy day.
O: Looking forward to it!
O.
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Obsidian said: “O: Yes, but what I and others are telling you is that Black folks simply do not care what “others” think in the matter; in the matter, those “others”, don’t matter.”
What “others” think absolutely matters, as business is by nature a social and collaborative enterprise. Here is a non-race based example of this dynamic: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/01/05/black-pathology/#comment-76879
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“What “others” think absolutely matters, as business is by nature a social and collaborative enterprise.”
Yes, but it doesn’t matter MORE than having a job to the people we are talking about AA benefiting.
So by your logic, blacks should always behave in whatever way whites feel is most appropriate. Because the most important thing for “them” is what whites think of “them”
I suppose you could find a few people who would agree with you on that.
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jas0nburns said:“Yes, but it doesn’t matter MORE than having a job to the people we are talking about AA benefiting. ”
This is a common argument in favor of AA, to which I would counter that the advantages gained by those few beneficiaries in a particular group are greatly outweighed by the liabilities to the much larger population of non-beneficiaries in that group.
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Randy Garver:
To listen to you one would think that AA has cast us out of some lost Eden where whites judged blacks fairly according to their merits, where whites had a generally good opinion of blacks as their equals.
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an Eden of “strange fruit.”
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“the liabilities to the much larger population of non-beneficiaries in that group.”
The liability being the perception that every black person with a job got that job through AA. And again I say the responsibility for that racist and faulty perception lies with the perceiver.
I don’t think it’s fair for any group of people to submit or bow to the ignorance of another group just because the latter has more power. Even though that’s the precedence history has set.
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“most pathologies are driven by white racism itself. (Though not all, such as illegitimacy.”
It seems like all black pathologies would be driven by racism
insofar as they could be labeled as such.
I don’t mean to say that everyone isn’t responsible for their own actions. However, wouldn’t any “black pathology” arise from the unique set of circumstances one would encounter as a black person? If not, black pathology is a misnomer and If so, what else but racism could account for the difference in experience necessary for a pathology or any such distinction to arise?
Racism is just about treating people differently. Any sort of observable statistical difference would have to arise as a result of said treatment.
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Abagond said: “To listen to you one would think that AA has cast us out of some lost Eden where whites judged blacks fairly according to their merits, where whites had a generally good opinion of blacks as their equals.”
In the corporate environments where I’ve worked, I have not seen minority employees being treated with less than full regard. How has your experience been different?
But more to your point, the principle I’m describing is independent of the level of esteem a person receives. It can be generalized to state that preferential or non-meritorious hiring/promoting suggests that the persons who receive it lack the qualifications of those who do not. I don’t think this concept is specific to race or gender as illustrated by the “nepotism hire” example.
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Randy Garver:
I once worked at a place that practised AA. Not as stated company policy but as a sort of unspoken rule to prevent lawsuits. The blacks they hired were, guess what, all Ivy League grads, while the whites mostly came from state universities. But in spite of even that, blacks were STILL seen as not being as good as whites.
You saw the very same thing with Sonia Sotomayor: she graduated from Princeton summa cum laude and STILL her education was doubted!!!
You see it in the income levels and unemployment rates of blacks with university degrees.
Whites are racist when it comes to hiring, pay and promotion. They practise a RACIAL NEPOTISM – they take LESS QUALIFIED whites over blacks. AA is meant to counteract that (to the limited degree that it can).
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Abagond,
To my understanding, the common definition of AA is “pro-bias” in favor of one or more specific demographics, whereas the scenario you are describing appears to be more like “non-bias”, unless the Ivy Leaguers in your example would be otherwise non-suited for those positions if judged by race-neutral standards (e.g. egg-heads in a position which requires relevant experience).
Perhaps we’ve been debating different definitions of the term AA?
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“They practise a RACIAL NEPOTISM ”
brilliant. did you coin this phrase just now?
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Abagond,
This concept of “Affirmative Action” is very interesting…I like Jasons statement about how white people should check their preconceived notions at the door and stop believing that every black person benefits from AA…
I know as a foreign (black) student, I had to not only pay higher tuition fees but also, for the program I was in, my GPA could not fall below a 3.0, I kept it above 3.4 at all times (and I felt like an average student compared to the other black overachievers in my program)
I am sure many black students got into university based on merit–grades and test scores…and their hard work and ethics because you have to have these skills to do well in school and graduate with a high GPA, as many black students do.
and it seems to me white people would rather tell themselves that these black children are recipients of charity because this idea already fits their prejudice towards black people…
the problem I have is when they say these things out loud and in the media, as if it’s the gospel…and they say it so much until people start to believe it…
when will the marginalization end? it won’t stop even if the government removes the practice of AA…whites marginalizing black people in American is so ingrained in the American society like a sickness
…the only time this “I am better than you” mentality stops is when white Americans leave the USA and realize that their white skin doesn’t protect them from other “white” peoples dislike.
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I think the problem with AA is that people often see it from only one perspective. Black people rarely will admit that here are and have been *some* abuses.
However Whites tend to look at AA as if there isn’t, and wasn’t, ever any good reason for it — as if it’s based on pure liberal favoritism and minority coddling.
AA is, and always has been, essentially an incentive. Something was needed to overcome the White tendency to hire Whites over any other ethnicity for all but the most menial of jobs. Before AA, there was very little incentive to cross the color line and begin hiring even highly qualified Blacks for “traditionally White” positions.
My own Aunt was the fastest typist in her secretarial class. She dressed well, and had impeccable manners. However, the telephone company, the post office, not even the mortuary wanted her as a secretary. It didn’t matter that she could type twice as fast, or was better at shorthand, and spoke perfectly unaccented english. The problem was that she was Black. She was expected to find work in a much lower paying Black company (and there were far fewer Black companies around). She finally gave up and studied to become a teacher instead (of Black students, of course)
This is not a rare or uncommon story—that was simply normal for how the White-dominated world worked back then. And that is the reason why AA was finally implemented, it incentivized fairness. The “favoritism” that some Whites complain about today is, in actuality, just carving out a small percentage of jobs from the de facto White favoritism of the last two centuries.
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Thats an amazing, but all too familiar story, King. Blind, direct or otherwise, white racism should definitely be listed as a festering, though treatable, “pathology”.
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To Obsidian:
Then said ardent White supporters of AA couldn’t be more wrong. AA wasn’t designed to address the needs and interests of lower class Blacks.
Whatever it was designed for.. it most assuredly has been used (or it was tried..) to help lower income Blacks. In addition AA now goes well beyond Black people.. as King and I have already noted it applied to White women (but I think this has subsided substantially and I believe it should be eliminated..) and starting in 1970 it applied to Latinos. I understand, the moral pinnings underlying AA towards Black Americans whose ancestors were brought here against their will and had de jure and de facto discrimination restricting their employment opportunities but the vast majority of Latinos immigrated here after 1965. (or were born to those same immigrants..)
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To Jas0nburns:
So by your logic, blacks should always behave in whatever way whites feel is most appropriate. Because the most important thing for “them” is what whites think of “them”
The majority of my work colleagues and supervisors in the past 10 years have been Asian. (South and East..) So for me… yes… it was important what these particular Asian people thought of me and what behavior they thought was appropriate… especially in light of the fact that half of the staff in our division has been laid off since the recession started.
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To Abagond:
The blacks they hired were, guess what, all Ivy League grads, while the whites mostly came from state universities. But in spite of even that, blacks were STILL seen as not being as good as whites.
What leads you to that conclusion ..? (And if it could be verified in court, that they were more competent than Whites they would have a good case for a civil suit…) Could they not form their own company and then beat the White competition..?
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To Linda:
…the only time this “I am better than you” mentality stops is when white Americans leave the USA and realize that their white skin doesn’t protect them from other “white” peoples dislike.
Well believe it or not I have run into plenty of White people who don’t like each other (or myself) in the US. So what. Sure I have run into snooty Europeans (invariably young and from money..) who find it fashionable to put down Americans. (all the while watching American movies, listening to American music, and wearing American fashions..). Again so what.
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@ Uncle Milton
“Could they not form their own company and then beat the White competition..?”
Business is not just about how good you are, it’s about how good other people think you are—perception becomes reality.
People still aren’t too comfortable with all-black companies handling critical business needs for them, except in very limited fields..
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To King:
Business is not just about how good you are, it’s about how good other people think you are—perception becomes reality.
Yes I understand that… I have run a small business before and know there are barriers to entry even if you are very efficient. That’s why I phrased the question “Could they have started their own business..?” as opposed to “Why didn’t they start their own business…?”
The longer one is in a field making business contacts.. the more likely one can make that happen.
It’s a fairly common phenomenon in California for Latinos and Asians to start their own business once they learn the ropes. However, I understand that some business have very high barriers of entry.
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@ Uncle Milton
Yeah, I suppose it depends on the business.
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“Business is not just about how good you are, it’s about how good other people think you are—perception becomes reality.”
Yeah I’ve said that before. It’s very, very true.
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Hi Uncle Milton,
Replies below:
UM (qouting me first): Then said ardent White supporters of AA couldn’t be more wrong. AA wasn’t designed to address the needs and interests of lower class Blacks.
Whatever it was designed for.. it most assuredly has been used (or it was tried..) to help lower income Blacks.
O: Really? How so? Most fights over Affirmative Action involve either elite places in universities, high level corporate jobs and the like, or barring that, respectable Blue Collar positions such as on the police force or fire department. Please cite for me some instances where AA case were being fought that involved jobs at say, Walmart or lower tier trades/services unions?
UM: In addition AA now goes well beyond Black people.. as King and I have already noted it applied to White women (but I think this has subsided substantially and I believe it should be eliminated..)
O: Which would be something of a non-sequitur for this conversation, since we are examining the role if any that AA plays wrt “Black pathology”. Right?
UM: and starting in 1970 it applied to Latinos. I understand, the moral pinnings underlying AA towards Black Americans whose ancestors were brought here against their will and had de jure and de facto discrimination restricting their employment opportunities but the vast majority of Latinos immigrated here after 1965. (or were born to those same immigrants..)
O: Again, this is outside the scope of the discussion, I think. Even if true, which I don’t deny or dispute, mind you. Just having a hard time seeing how any of this has to do with the current discussion.
O.
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Hi Randy,
Replies below:
RG: What “others” think absolutely matters, as business is by nature a social and collaborative enterprise. Here is a non-race based example of this dynamic:
O: No, it does not matter what others think. This is a matter of the law, and simply put, it is illegal to discriminate based on race. So if Biff the Cubicle Dweller thinks that Shante the CFO is an AA hire, so what? His opinion is just that – an opinion – nothing more. It cannot have any bearing on things. And rightly so.
That’s what I’m saying.
Holla back
O.
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What’s wrong with out-of-wedlock births?
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@ ML,
It too often leads to fatherlessness.
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Found this MLK quote on Wikipedia today and thought it went with the discussion.
“All I’m saying is simply this, that all life is interrelated, that somehow we’re caught in an inescapable network of mutuality tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly. For some strange reason, I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality.”
— Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
That reinforces my belief that people shouldn’t get bogged down in either/or scenarios where you either blame WP for their racism or you blame BP for their pathology. We all have to uplift ourselves and change our behavior if we want anything to change. Independently and at the same time together.
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Obsidian said: “No, it does not matter what others think. This is a matter of the law, and simply put, it is illegal to discriminate based on race. So if Biff the Cubicle Dweller thinks that Shante the CFO is an AA hire, so what? His opinion is just that – an opinion – nothing more. It cannot have any bearing on things. And rightly so.”
Except for workers at the lowest level of a company’s org chart, success in business involves recruiting, motivating, and retaining top talent. Leadership ability and the confidence of one’s peers and direct reports becomes increasingly important as you move up the ladder. Business problems are mostly people problems.
Anything that introduces doubt and uncertainty can compromise a person’s ability to be successful in their career, especially at management levels and above. The existence of AA at a company is one of several types of non-meritorious hiring / promoting which can impede a top worker’s progress.
I think the “nepotism hire” example is a good one in this context, because it avoids invoking what appears to be reactive emotional response whenever the issue of race appears.
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@ Randy
So your a concern troll. Congratulations.
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Again Randy, what you are saying might make more sense if the numbers of say… African-American AA hires were significant. But realistically, Black people are even a minority when it comes percentage of AA hires.
Most people who complain about AA are just spinning their wheels. In most companies, the number of women who already work at the company more than fill any AA quotas. THERE IS NO NEED TO GO OUT AND HIRE UNQUALIFIED BLACK PEOPLE.
The existence of AA at a company is one of several types of non-meritorious hiring / promoting which can impede a top worker’s progress.
Except that for AA does not prescribe non-meritorious hiring. A person can be hired, based in part on AA considerations, and still merit their position.
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King,
I think the incidences of informal AA are probably much greater than official AA. At least out in California, companies (and teams within firms) often made a conspicuous show of how “diverse” they were.
The unspoken definition of that term was usually black, hispanic, or female as there were often quite a few asian and indian folks already. Apparently they don’t count anymore.
In some instances there was a “more progressive than thou” attitude which came across as rather contrived and inorganic. True and valuable diversity would be more like what you proposed, that is to say casting a broader net to look for top candidates, rather than simply favoring a certain demographic as a box-ticking exercise.
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To King:
Most people who complain about AA are just spinning their wheels. In most companies, the number of women who already work at the company more than fill any AA quotas.
I am quite sure a company or government agency that fulfills it’s AA goals (I don’t believe the term quotas is used any more..) with (White, Asian, or Latina women) when there is a sizable and qualified Black population applying for those jobs and being turned is deservedly asking for a lawsuit.
For example the EEOC has filed a discrimination lawsuit against Kaplan education because Kaplan uses credit reports as a basis for hiring. Apparently because Black people tend to have lower credit scores the EEOC has decided this is discriminatory.
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/22/eeoc-sues-kaplan-higher-education-for-race-discrimination/
“The lawsuit, filed in a Cleveland federal court Tuesday, says that Kaplan discriminated against black job applicants by taking credit histories into consideration when making employment decisions.”
There’s no way the company can come back and say.. see we have all of these women in other races… why are you bothering us…?
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To King:
But realistically, Black people are even a minority when it comes percentage of AA hires.
I don’t have the numbers but for much of the private sector I can believe that to be the case. The thing about AA is that it can now (depending upon the position and whether it is employment or education..) apply to 65% of the population.
It is no longer about historical wrongs but achieving a sense of diversity in the workforce.
Personally I would rather see more effort and money being applied at the K-12 level. (not saying I want to see AA entirely eliminated..) Get the numbers of qualified applicants up for all parties.
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@ Randy
Do you not yet see where you are going wrong?
AA was implemented in hopes of changing the way that people were hired, at a time, and in a world, that HEAVILY favored hiring White males.
Now, forty years later, when AA has affected the way that people are hired, instead of thinking that AA has been, at least partially successful in integrating the workplace, you call that integration, “incidences of informal AA.”
“Informal AA” is what is widely known to the rest of the word as “integration” and it happens when the culture of a company shifts, or when new blood or a younger generation begins making the hiring decisions. They begin to realize that there are just as many White people
– coming to work late
– making personal phone calls on company time
– surfing the internet
– taking long lunches
– doing the minimal amount of work that they can get away with
– leaving early
– taking excessive “sick days” and
– wasting company supplies
as there are Black people. So why should they exclusively hire a bunch of White men to do the exact same thing that bad minority hires do?
Believe me, Randy – A company that is not making an effort to hire highly-qualified minority hires is also hiring unqualified White people in much larger numbers. Then you have the lazy White people complaining about lazy Black people and vice versa.
In reality it has nothing to do with race. If a company has sloppy hiring practices, then it’s going to end up with lazy employees of whatever color.
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@king: actually, it has been more white guys surfing the net than the blacks, if the blacks are not majority in the offices around the globe, and since, and this is interesting, only few years ago some 80% of working time was spent in line and 80% of time spent on the Net was spent in porn, this means that whites are spending at least 80% more working time on porn than the blacks are, if the whites are the majority among these people. So the whites are spending 80% of their productive time on porn. What that tells yah? 😀
Just a thought.
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@ Sam
Porn? No way. You would have to WANT to get fired.
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Thats an interesting reference quote from MLK jas0nburns. I feel the significance may be lost on some commentators here so it is worth restating:
“…all life is interrelated, that somehow we’re caught in an inescapable network of mutuality tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly…”
Unless and until that simple basic recognition is grasped we will continue to get caught up in the delusion of debating the pros and cons of specific remedies for seemingly isolated pathological practices.
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@ kwamala
Yes. and specifically this
“Whatever affects one directly affects all indirectly.”
I wish more people were aware of how racism drags us all down. Makes us all much less than we would be without it. And that fighting it isn’t an act of charity.
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@Jas0nburns
I hear you Jason. We could all be so much more without racism and its effects. But its the “more” we should be fighting for. The bigger vision of what we could be is where the greater focus of our attention needs to be.
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You all need to realize the fact that ALL blacks are “taught” from the time they are very small, to see racism everywhere, wheather it exists or not. And yes, it does exist, but not nearly to the extent that some would have us believe.
So, in a sense, you can’t really help it. It’s been too ingrained into your psyche. It’s not entirely the fault of blacks. It’s the extremely lucrative Racism Industry, doncha see.
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@ essbro
Your statement is imprecise.
1) You cannot possibly know what ALL black people are “taught” unless you are claiming to be omniscient.
2) Since you cannot know to what extent that Blacks believe in racism, you also cannot hope to correctly assess to what degree that Blacks over believe in it.
I’m not saying that Blacks don’t ever see racism where it is not, but you should not assume that your own understanding of racism, is “how it is.” Realize that, as a White person, you have also been “taught” certain things about racism from the time that you were very small. Don’t assume that you are speaking from a lack of indoctrination yourself.
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Essbro:
Given that you are white, it seems you are assuming that whites are a better judge of racism than blacks are. Why is that? Are men also a better judge of sexism than women? Are Christians a better judge of anti-Semitism than Jews?
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Although I am a month late, I want to thank you, Abagond, for this post and the amazingly interesting responses it elicited. I spent hours reading all the responses, and found some many beautiful pockets of insight. I have no comment, because I could right a whole blog post on this “black pathology” topic and some of the sub-topics that commenters noted.
Thanks for this post! It and the comments were refreshing, if at times maddening for some slightly more narrow-minded folks. 🙂
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Was typing fast…sorry for the misspelled words. That’s “write” not “right.” And that’s “from” some slightly narrowed minded folks.
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[…] was over at Abagond, reading the comment thread, and I saw a comment that has always irked me during discussions of […]
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Stereotypes derive from prototypes. There is more predominant hindsight, not prejudgment, in the avoidance behavior noted in this discussion. We are neurologically hard-wired to generalize across stimuli, particularly those that are negative. This is a survival instinct, and following the threat-avoidance behavior is correct. They don’t call some people “bleeding-hearts” (e.g., b__ h__ liberals) for nothing. Blood is really drawn when these instincts are ignored or sublimated in the name of “political correctness.” Be realistic.
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Obe,
and what do you think is the “prototype” of white people across the world these last 400 years?
Just asking.
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if this is just about racism etc I quit. that’s not what i’m looking for, unless you’re say bigfoot is from black people…
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2 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!! damn and I thought this was up to date…..
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[…] black pathology […]
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I live in another country (Canada) and I can tell you that in general Canadians think Americans are stupid. Howver, some of that may be a veiled insinuation about black pathology. One poster comment about making therigh right choice and not having sex out of wedlock etc. Well, I was basically that person, I did not becoome sexually active until my mid twetneies, I only smoked marijuanna twice in the presence of serious white potheads who were college dormmates and I went to college and did not make any serious mistakes. However, I still deal with white racism. It is difficult in predominantly white Canada, to be simply human. White folks are watching. Scrutinizing your every move. And making excuses for their racism at every turn. So, there’s to being perfect and not making any mistakes or engaging in any pathologies. It helps a little but not completely.
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@Angela
Thank you for providing your perspective.
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[…] black pathology […]
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[…] black pathology […]
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[…] Black pathology: Blacks are their own worst enemies. […]
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This is my first time hearing about “black pathologies”.
I don’t see how pointing out the systemic problems associated with the aftermath of slavery equates to blaming genetics.
It makes perfect sense that fatherlessness and all the problems that stem from it, would be more prevalent in black american culture, because they were once slaves here. The emasculation of the alpha male slave and the division of man and woman is the control of reproduction and the breakup of the nuclear family. And the destruction of the family unit and removal of the father is the most effective way to keep slaves down. Of course the black community is still struggling. They are still fatherless because the system never allows the to rebuild their kinship system. They are caught in a vicious cycle that only they an undo at this point. Its sad but most of whites are not oppressed but that doesn’t make us privileged enough to help. It’s not genetic or about race. This is just what happens when a minority that were once slaves are set for free into a land without a body of cultural knowledge to survive with.
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[…] interracial violence. This argument is built upon the ugly stereotype of black pathological violence, and perpetuates the ongoing criminalization of black citizens. It propagates stop and […]
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[…] If these shooters were black men, there would be a collective shaking-of-heads at their ‘inherit violent nature‘. If Latina women were committing mass shootings at a similar rate, the media would certainly be […]
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