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An interracial relationship (IRR) is a dating or married relationship between people from different races. This post is about the ones in America. It is an overview post – click on links to go deeper into a particular topic.
The numbers:
In 2010, 4.1% of all marriages in America were interracial. The rate was 2.1% for white women, 4.6% for black women and 17.5% for Asian women.
Interracial marriages, from most common to least:
- 21.3% Asian woman, white man
- 19.7% other woman, white man
- 19.7% white woman, other man
- 15.7% white woman, black man
- 8.8% white woman, Asian man
- 6.8% black woman, white man
- 2.7% other woman, black man
- 1.6% Asian woman, black man
- 1.5% Asian woman, other man
- 1.1% other woman, Asian man
- 0.7% black woman, other man
- 0.4% black woman, Asian man
Notes:
- Hispanic – not a race.
- Asian – everyone from Pakistan to Japan, from Mongolia to Papua New Guinea is one “race”.
- other – presumably Native Americans, mixed-race people, etc.
Myths:
- “I am not racist. My girlfriend is black.” Right, and I am not sexist because my wife is a woman.
- “Mixed-race marriages will help end racism. In 500 years we will all look Brazilian!” The people in Brazil already look Brazilian – and they are still racist. Racism comes not from differences but how people think about those differences.
- “Mixed-race children are better-looking.” Is that because being part white puts them closer to white ideas of beauty?
- “All black men secretly want to marry white women.” Supposedly most black men who make over $100,000 a year marry white. That could well be true, but not necessarily because of any secret desire: as Michelle Obama found out, most highly successful blacks live in an all-white world and become cut off from other blacks.
Issues:
- Beauty is objective – a racist trope that comes up in these discussions. Pushed by Steve Sailer, Satoshi Kanazawa, Heartiste, majorityrights.com and their godfather, J.F. “Caucasian” Blumenbach. It is all beside the point because:
- Men are dogs – when it comes to race, it is women who do the choosing. Or so says the Columbia speed dating study.
- sexual selection and race – a study of Chinese American women found that those who grew up in white neighbourhoods tend to marry white while those who grew up in Chinese neighbourhoods tend to marry Chinese.
- Asian fetish – while there are probably white men with creepy desires for Asian women, the high number of Asian women married to white men mainly comes from the fact that Asian women are far less likely to grow up in same-race neighbourhoods than other women.
- Red flags:
- Exoticization – this makes the other person into some kind of racist fantasy, not a flesh-and-blood person. No one is exotic.
- Internalized racism – this shows up as badmouthing one’s own race, particularly the opposite sex. Examples:
- BWE Movement – thinks that black men are DBR (Damaged Beyond Repair), that the answer is to marry white men.
- Tommy Sotomayor – the black male counterpart to BWE.
- mixed-race identity – what the children of these unions will have to deal with at some point.
See also:
- Black women, loyalty and Black men
- My views on relationships between black women and white men
- OkCupid and race and dating – a dating website with a half million people runs the numbers
- Famous interracial couples
- Adrian Tomine: Shortcomings – internalized racism and interracial relationships
- growing up biracial
Abagond, yet another post on this subject?
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I love how smooth this post is. Abagond you have really are masterful with the blog game.
Very concise & to the point.
—————–
I am a black male who loves to date black, white, Latina & mixed Asian women.
When I become more cultured, I will see the beauty in many women of color.
But my dating preferences are not a political statement.
Good Day
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Abagond,
as much as I learn from your posts, in your words I sense a disregard for “interracial marriages” (where I might be wrong).
Frankly: could it be that there is no such thing as “race”? That race is a social construct, especially within the US?
That there are people who love each other, who happen to be of different skin tone and physical appearance?
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ROFL!!!
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I hope all this back in forth on the subject in different threads have not driven you to write about the subject.
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I will make my response here as this is the proper thread for it.
@ Asplund
By logic you mean reading minds or inferring something based on little or no evidence?
The definition of bigotry is the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigotry
So now you are making up definitions. LOL
“Sure someone who opposes interracial relationships can’t prevent someone from marrying. Someone opposed to integration can’t keep a black child out of public school. That’s because we have laws to back that up.”—What does any of that have to do with your premise? More deflection instead of sticking to the main points at hand. Which proves you can’t prove what you claim. I asked you to prove two statements you made (even though you made several that require proof) and you can not do that. Is it so hard for you to admit defeat?
“But hey, if the Supreme Court decision isn’t enough for you, then nothing is going to be”–The court case would be enough if it had anything to do with your premise, but in this case you need to site research indicating that the majority or all people opposed to interracial marriages are bigots. You also need research showing that 99% of people applaud by it. Just prove two things. That is it.
“Most people, and the vast majority of educated people in the establishment, will see you as a bigot.”—You need to provide proof to this claim.
If you can’t then you lose and need to go sit in the loser corner.
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Great topic. I oppose interracial relationships between Black people and White people. However I don’t oppose any other interracial pairings besides Blacks and Whites.
For starters, White people are our enemies. It doesn’t make sense to date someone who is your enemy. And most White Americans are very racist and teach their children not to date or marry Black people. As a Black female, I sure wouldn’t want to date anyone who hates me and nor should any other Black person.
Blacks dating Whites are supporting White love because it is White love. White people get very uncomfortable when we date and marry each other. It appeases them when we date them because it proves to them that they are the most attractive and wanted people on earth. And you are supporting the notion that we should have a mixed race utopia where everyone is mixed race with brown skin and where racism doesn’t exist. It doesn’t seem like a bad idea but racism will not go away because I already see a resurgence of colorism in our communities. Dating Whites is White love and supporting their false belief in multiculturalism.
And I am not opposed to Black people dating Hispanic or other minority groups because they aren’t as blatantly as opposed to us as Whites are. Also Hispanic culture is pretty similar to our culture too. And as an Afro Caribbean woman, I can relate to Caribbean Hispanics especially Afro Latinos
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supposedly i have a new baby on the way, if it lives, etc. and is mine of course, it shall be half all black and half all white i believe i will tell him or her you are both black and white
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*sigh*
People of other races choose not to date out their race and other people choose to do just that.
Interesting how you focused on the ‘white male response.’
Abagond has an issue with white men and black women getting together.
Too obvious to deny…
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Sharina-
It’s become clear that elementary reasoning and reading comprehension are not your strong suit.
Let me prove what I said, indisputably (to those willing to listen):
“By logic you mean reading minds or inferring something based on little or no evidence?
The definition of bigotry is the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigotry
So now you are making up definitions. LOL”
No- If you had even the most basic logic at your disposal you’d see that that very definition- intolerance, is exactly what I’m talking about. Bigots lack tolerance of others. Bigots show intolerance. Bigots are intolerant of interracial marriages. Jesus Christ it’s that fucking simple. Goddamn.
“—What does any of that have to do with your premise?”
It proves that it is completely unnecessary to know every thought and life experience a bigot has had to call someone a bigot. Holding a bigoted position is in itself justification for calling someone a bigot.
“More deflection instead of sticking to the main points at hand. Which proves you can’t prove what you claim. I asked you to prove two statements you made (even though you made several that require proof) and you can not do that. Is it so hard for you to admit defeat?”
Sharina I don’t get what I haven’t demonstrated? A. Discriminating against someone based on race is bigoted behavior. B. Intolerance of interracial marriage is discrimination because you are against a person loving another person based on race/ethnicity/religion, etc. therefore those opposed to interracial relationships are bigots.
“The court case would be enough if it had anything to do with your premise, but in this case you need to site research indicating that the majority or all people opposed to interracial marriages are bigots.”
Sharina the fact that the supreme court made the ruling it did, the fact that not one state in the union has been able to maintain its laws against irr is proof that the vast majority of people, or at least the vast majority of those with power, oppose prohibiting interracial relationships. Jesus.
““Most people, and the vast majority of educated people in the establishment, will see you as a bigot.”—You need to provide proof to this claim.””
Sharina, you completely (and intentionally) ignored my proof of this concept. I showed you the one example of a public figure who opposed irr- the judge in Louisiana, and you utterly refused to comprehend it. The fact that that public figure was publicly crucified for opposing irr is proof of my claim.
“If you can’t then you lose and need to go sit in the loser corner.”
If this discussion is going to go anywhere, you have to have advanced past the first grade.
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Black men are the most willing to date out a study showed out of all race men,wonder why?
Is it they don’t see their women as worthy or is it because they are desperate to be accepted,
I don’t believe the bull that they are particularly attracted to a certain type race women because if you put those cooning black men on an all black island they will soon be overcome with lust.
Also there are some BM that have dated other race women that were average chosen over goodlooking BW-which shows that its not based on a physical presence,however these bm then say it is based on certain qualities-however that wouldn’t make sense either since no quality is exclusive to just one race.
the truth is BM want to be accepted,they feel inferior and are color struck basically as long as the women is white mostly,they feel some sort of acclaim and recognition…its very sad but true.
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Kudos for that link TrojanPam, it brought me to check out other books by Umoja. Great, insightful books!
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white males marry Asian women and “other” women more than black women It seems white men and women marry more “other” than black so..
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“Black men are the most willing to date out a study showed out of all race men,wonder why?”
Idk but I do notice a lot of the ones that do they come from a certain background…
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The question, though, is about the numbers- the first part you listed. How can there be any accurate ‘statistics’ when so many people were categorized or assumed to be a specific race, while in fact they were mixed-race?
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@V8Driver
I don’t care what you will identify your mixed race baby but I don’t believe that I, as a Black woman, should date White men. That is my belief. However as a young woman, I don’t plan on waiting on Black men for very long either.
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^ that is true I see a lot of biracial ppl saying they are black or whatever so it does mess up the numbers a bit.
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also a lot of biracial males date/ marry white women and say they are black so that could account for some of it as well. The only way we’d know is if they did a study showing what percent of biracials put their race as black.
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Far as i am concerned, a white man or woman, messaging or emailing a black man or woman on a dating site, means absolutely nothing!
So what, they contact us in a impersonal way on the down low and always want to meet us at a hotel, when they happen to be on a “business trip”
We as black people are simply, play toys for white people.
when they are not stepping on our neck in some way shape or form, they are having sex with us.
I feel my black women are more vulnerable to this from white men, than black men are from white women, being most black men ( not all because i am not one of them ) with screw any female they can.
Black women, being women, want more than just sex. They want marriage and commitment, this is what white men use to lure the black woman.
I think most black women, look at how white men, marry and take care of their white women and think the white man, will extend this to her, this is where she is so wrong, its a fallacy that a lot of black women, find out after the fact.
I also feel, that most black women, compare white men to black men and use a white man as a measuring tool and say, “white men are more of a catch, then black men, being white men are more educated, earn more money and came from money” so i will date only white men. That is very unfair in my opinion, simply because of the white supremacist dynamic, that exists.
Black women, should not hold up a white man and say, look at the white man, why can’t black men be more like them in terms of education,money,status ect… I think i need not, explain why this is so wrong in so many ways.
They look at the house with the white Pickett fence, the two cars, the dog and cat and say, i want that for me. which is fine for a black woman or any woman to want for that matter.
The fact that white men, will marry a white woman, have white children, get a divorce and then all of a sudden, want a black woman?? That’s suspect to me…
I mean, i can see if a white woman or white man, actually had children with a black person, they get a little lead way and i wouldn’t question their motives as much but most have white children, so there is no way to tell, if they have a hidden, agenda.
White men, know the racism that black people and other people of color, go through, do you think for a new york minute, that he would want that for any of his children? Hell to the no!!
He wants white children, not black children that will be cursed under, white supremacy!
So white men dangle promises of marriage, children and being taken care of in from of black women.
Most black women, ( Not all but most ) fall for the bait, then when the black women, puts pressure on the white man after they’ve been dating for a year or more, the white man bails on the black woman!
Then guess what happens? The next time that black woman sees him, he’s with a white woman! Then the black woman, realizes that she was just a negro bed wench, all along.
Again, i am not saying all black women but most of them, fall for the kooliad and think white men are so much more, moral than black men.
When You normally see older white men and women, that are over weight, look old and unattractive and therefore, not caring too much about what society thinks about them, being with a black person.
When they were younger, they wouldn’t have been caught dead with a black person but in old age, they don’t have as many options as they did in their youth and their own white people don’t want them anymore.
The black people are normally, one to two times, younger than they are.
I rarely see a young, attractive, rich white male or woman, with a black person, being they are at a stage in their life, where being scene with a black person, will hurt their stature and job prospects .
So when i tell you, when it comes to white people, dating black people, there is ALWAYS an agenda, either way you slice it and dice it.
I think most of the anger and hostility, comes from this, when black men get angry, when seeing a black woman with a white man.
Just because a very small percentage of white men, will marry and have children with a black woman, doesn’t mean white men, love black women.
These interracial websites, do give black women, false hopes in thinking, white men want them in a real way , not just a fantasy or experiment. I believe that the majority of white men that seek black women on interracial sites and in society, look at black women in this way.
The very small percent of white men that marry black women, is an exception and not the rule. The powers that be, want black people to think, we are getting more equal, simply because we are having sex with them.
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maxine,
I’m a black woman but to be honest a lot of black women do the same thing. There are even parts of MD where you will see lots of black women/white male couples and even on the net you will find many books, websites and videos online where black WOMEN dog out black men, and say false bull like how white men supposedly accept black women more, are more open to dark skin & natural hair and the like.
Plenty of black women also have half-white kids but you don’t see black men complaining.
It may be weird to us when we go to a public place and see a black male or two all over or pursuing white women and make us feel weird because of our history as blacks and how we’ve been devalued and our looks devalued under white supremacy, but plenty of black women do it too. I think because we are the opposite gender we don’t notice it. Luckily though, black men are not as vocal at fighting black women/other race couples. I think it makes us feel more sensitive because of how whites have dogged black looks and black beauty for so long.
In addition maxine, black men have it a bit worse than us in terms of the fact that we are held down and the MAN is supposed to be able to take care of their household, which society does not want black men to be able to do.
More importantly, you may not see it if you are not a black male, but white men (and often women) are “uncomfortable” about black men desiring black women and black people dating each other. I and many other black women whom have paid attention have noted how white men often subtly tell black men that they are uncomfortable with them finding black women attractive.
Another factor is the fact that whites constantly put down blacks and as men, black men have an EGO. I notice when with white women, some black men act “different”, will act as if they are a white male. When men are constantly told they will be seen as a threat if they are head of their household, denied jobs to be able to care for a family, told to shun their own race of women and the like they will try to ‘escape’ this by going to other races of women.
I think such couples like Kanye and Kim Kardashian ( sorry I like the Kardashians) and others are more genuine and there are genuine IR couples. I though don’t understand coupling with whites, as I’ve seen even whites in IR act out white supremacy and racism, something I don’t want to deal with in my home life.
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^ that is crazy he is wrong will demps and amerie are beautiful both Korean and black. rofl Obama lol I;m sorry but he not that attractive to me, maybe to white ppl. full Asian children are beautiful wtf are they talking about.
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sondis,
There are some White men who genuinely either like black women or genuinely fell for one. They are rare though but they are out there. Just like there are white men and women who support civil rights laws, equal opportunity for blacks, affirmative action and the like. They are out there but a small minority. I think 30% of white American men voted for Obama. So it’s a small minority but they are out there.
I think we all need to be suspect in terms of who we date and allow into our lives.
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oh lord I know kim kardashian and kanye did not just get put into the same sentence as the word genuine couple.
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I have said my peace on the subject more than I care to count, so I will just sit this one out.
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Alicia:
“There are some White men who genuinely either like black women or genuinely fell for one. They are rare though but they are out there. Just like there are white men and women who support civil rights laws, equal opportunity for blacks, affirmative action and the like. They are out there but a small minority. I think 30% of white American men voted for Obama. So it’s a small minority but they are out there.”
I am aware, that there are a very “small” % of white men, that will marry and have children with a black woman, however far and in between. The fact that there are some and not many, wasn’t the point of my comment.
The point was that, the MAJORITY of white men, do not look at black women in any, serious capacity and only as exotic play things to experiment with and throw in the trash, when their done and marry a white women. ( this is normally done is college, high school doesn’t even count, whatsoever. )
“Just like there are white men and women who support civil rights laws, equal opportunity for blacks, affirmative action and the like. They are out there but a small minority. I think 30% of white American men voted for Obama. So it’s a small minority but they are out there.”
This statement is misleading being, voting for a black president, being for affirmative action, civil rights laws and equal opportunity for black people, has nothing to do with a white man, looking at a black woman as someone to marry, have children and treat as good or better than his white women.
This statement is the same as saying, just because a white man, has had sex with a black woman before or was in a relationship with one or even married to a black woman, isn’t racist. So just because, 30% of white people, voted for President Obama, doesn’t mean white people will look at a black person in any serious way, other than a sexual exploit.
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@mstoogood4yall,
I think the Kardashian family is black friendly. I like them of what I’ve watched. I don’t see anything wrong with Kanye and Kim. Heck, isn’t Khloe’s best friend also a black woman. I think this family genuinely like blacks.
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why comment caught in moderation? edited and still in moderation. -_-
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Its a conspiracy, i tell you…. @ >: o O ) >
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Ahh, there we go. ^_^
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idk or care if khloe friend is a black woman, . Miley cyrus has black friends apparently too does that stop her from objectifying them and jacking their culture no.
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^^
I hate those kind of Whites who act like they are down with us but deep down, they hold racist views about Blacks. They are more dangerous than the openly racist Whites who tell everyone that they hate Blacks and other minorities. Either way, Whites aren’t to be trusted.
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@sondis,
I and most adult black women know this. Isn’t that what I just said 😛
But you are speaking to the choir because most will have to live and learn in terms of the younger ones. Whom I feel most for are those young black women (and men) whom are in predominately white areas and only can find white attractive or are surrounded by whites. When I was younger, I was being raised in a mostly white area. to be honest at that time, I had white friends and most of the people my age were not showing any racism towards me. I do recall though that young white males would things which would always exclude me like play body guard or whatever game it was called and I would be instantly ignored. Also, when discussing girls, right in front of me i would always be ignored as if white males grow up thinking it’s not right or normal for them to be attracted to black girls.
Again most of my very early youth was mostly racism free so I’m just remembering this recently. We have also discussed on this board and on others how white men (also white women and hispanic women when they are white supremacist/caste minded) act to marginalize black women and try very very hard to convince us that no one wants us, that we are unnattractive and the like.
So many of us already know, however like I said. it’s easier to relate to dating other races like hispanics, asians, indians and others, however there are indeed open-minded Whites as well.
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@mstoogood4yall
I get where you are coming from but I have watched a lot of their shows and interviews. They even believe OJ was innocent, something many whites do not. I think Kim and the others are Black friendly and dating black are doing it genuinely ( genuinely open minded and genuinely find black men and women attractive)
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I have been interracially married to a society-identified white man (who is by birth Italian-American) for 32 years. We have two grown sons. I went where I was loved, as did he. Has it been easy? Absolutely not — on either side. Even until today, I wonder will he EVER understand exactly all our marriage has, and continues to entail — but he knows me, and I him, and we’ve worked hard at this union.
I reject the premise that I have somehow diluted the Black race. Having been born during Jim Crow in the Deep South, two years and two months after Brown v. Board, I am, as Randall Robinson describes himself, “obsessively Black” and make no apologies to anyone for that. I never saw a need to either alter or hide that fact when I met him, nor during this more than a quarter century dance in which we remain involved. At times he still works me, and I him — but we’re still here. Because we love each other, we continue to try and persevere though I’ve emphatically announced it over on more than one occasion.
I remember a comment I made a while ago to Dave on another post here that was strongly supported by my Sisters — until I said I was interracially married. It lost all depth and common sense for one Sister in particular after that, which not only saddened me deeply, but pissed me the hell off because the devaluation came, not for what I said, but for the person to whom I was married!
@Jason…“Frankly: could it be that there is no such thing as “race”? That race is a social construct, especially within the US?”
Yes and yes. However, with the majority of us having lived under that construct since this country’s founding — for the entire benefit of the White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy, don’t expect it to just go away cuz you want it to — it won’t. Just sayin’
@Aden..“Dating Whites is White love and supporting their false belief in multiculturalism.”
I beg to differ my young Sister — it is merely love, and they, of all people believe less in multiculturalism than most.
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I remember seeing a documentary on the Lovings on PBS, it was kind of sad the way the law hunted these people down like common criminals. Well back then I guess their marriage made them criminals. I remember the gestapo type bust in the door while they were in bed in their home. That was sad to me. It is no longer my desire to judge and police who people date and marry and choose for domestic partners. It’s just none of my business, it’s not my place to judge and police . It has nothing to do with me.
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Peanut, you know that’s bull right, but based on the “stats” I thought that’s what it would be about. I have dated Latino and Indian and know many black women- most whom are coupled up or married with fellow black men, latino, asians or others. Don’t believe the hype.
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Good summary of the facts on this topic. I am often amazed by your devotion to finding and spreading knowledge. I wish you would write a book containing all of your conclusions on race, ethnicity, culture, history, language, technology, etc. I doubt I’m the only one who would buy it. You already have over twelve hundred readers – hundreds gained even since I first discovered your blog in January!
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Live in a society people will judge from the way you talk, walk, and hang out. I guess it depends on how much I care about someone else’s opinion about me. Which as the saying goes…
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@Paige…I second that emotion!! Whenever Abagond writes that book, I’ll surely buy them in bulk for my Saturday school I’m planning on setting up when I move back to SC this year!
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@Legion
But the way IRR is laid out in 2010s Hollywood is pretty much garbage too. In fact, it still seems to be quite taboo. We have a president whose extended family is very multiracial, but it somehow is not allowed to depict that in movies or TV.
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@King…“Which as the saying goes…”
Yeah, like assholes, everybody has one. However, there is a certain extent to which I truly care about my people and their opinions (given the fact few, to no one else outside our culture does). I’d love folk to at least get to know and engage me before they paint me with their uninformed brushes. Look, we’re not all going to get along, but let’s NOT get along based on truth/real shit — not some fantasized version of who I’m supposed to be.
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Alicia:
I’m a black woman but to be honest a lot of black women do the same thing. There are even parts of MD where you will see lots of black women/white male couples and even on the net you will find many books, websites and videos online where black WOMEN dog out black men, and say false bull like how white men supposedly accept black women more, are more open to dark skin & natural hair and the like.
Plenty of black women also have half-white kids but you don’t see black men complaining.
It may be weird to us when we go to a public place and see a black male or two all over or pursuing white women and make us feel weird because of our history as blacks and how we’ve been devalued and our looks devalued under white supremacy, but plenty of black women do it too. I think because we are the opposite gender we don’t notice it. Luckily though, black men are not as vocal at fighting black women/other race couples. I think it makes us feel more sensitive because of how whites have dogged black looks and black beauty for so long.
In addition maxine, black men have it a bit worse than us in terms of the fact that we are held down and the MAN is supposed to be able to take care of their household, which society does not want black men to be able to do.”
I agree with this statement, 110% Black women are white struck, just like black men, they are not exempt from white supremacy. Its just over looked, because there aren’t many black women in the public eye like black athletes, movie stars and Music artists.
I’ve looked through a interracial website, just to get a census of just how many black women are looking for white men, i was astounded by the 1000’s of thousands of black women that were looking for a white man.
The few that are in the spot light are, halle berry, that was married to a white man and have a baby with him and Serena and Venus Williams, both are in relationships with white men!
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@Kiwi
I think even white woman who marry interracially will say that. They want to think their kids are better looking than non-white kids without a white parent.
But, at least you know that is not true. Some of the most handsomest men and beautiful women are of Black / Asian descent.
It is rather tasteless for a white man married to an Asian to think, not to mention spurt off the mouth about how Asian/white kids are “beautiful” and Asian/black kids are “ugly”. It sounds like he and your Aunt deserve each other. But I worry about the messages they teach to their kids. I remember I always wished that there was some counselling service for interracial kids growing up in a household with racist parents.
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Peanut:
I didn’t write, what you quoted me as writing. That was Alica in response to Maxine!
“Alicia
maxine,
I’m a black woman but to be honest a lot of black women do the same thing. There are even parts of MD where you will see lots of black women/white male couples and even on the net you will find many books, websites and videos online where black WOMEN dog out black men, and say false bull like how white men supposedly accept black women more, are more open to dark skin & natural hair and the like.
Plenty of black women also have half-white kids but you don’t see black men complaining.”
Please read thoroughly to see whom, said what, before jumping down people’s throat with hostility.
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@Peanut,
How is it funny? At that time isn’t it true that black men/white women pairings were seen in a worse light and often could be met with violence-although some black men and white women were dating? It’s not surprising at all then that a black woman/white male couple would be the ones to cause the change, rather than black men/white woman.
—————–
Re:
black woman legalized interracial marriage for everyone else…funny isn’t it.
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@Peanut
Many men want and like Black women, trust me. Many non Black men excluding White males just feel that we don’t like them because women like you idolize and put Black men on the pedestal too much. Black men are not perfect nor are we Black women perfect.
We, Black women need to expand our dating choices to other non White minority men because we can’t wait for Black men forever. Black men don’t even show that they love us anymore. Honestly as a Black female, I see myself with a non White minority male like a Latino male or a male from a various Asian group in the future. I find Latino, Arab, Indian, Middle Eastern men very attractive, romantic and many of them have been very nice to me too, moreso than Black men.
I am not completely giving up on Black men. I love my Black males but I can’t wait on them for too long. Thus I expanded my dating choices to other non White men of color.
However I will never date or consider dating a White man ever. White men are not my type of men.
I hope I didn’t offend you.
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@Peanut
I don’t exactly recall, it could have been guardian or something like that. Where I went to school when young on the play areas they played a lot of war games, forts, etc. What I remember is that when talking as males to females in ‘that way’ even though it may have been only me and one other white female, I would be totally excluded. I recall sometimes while playing, now that I think back, that when we would all be in a group, that it was white males who would often exclude me as if they felt it was wrong for them to even show any affection to me because I was black. now that I think back it’s weird, because even among non-black Latinos, Asians, Indians and others I have never dealt with that dynamic.
I do recall though that my white female friends ( well a few) were open to dating black males because I had one black male friend who began dating one of my white female friends. There was one black female/white male couple in the area as I got older but I now recall that dynamic when I was around whites when young.
After that, I left to go to a mostly black school where of course, we black girls ( well I’m a woman now) got a lot of love! later in high school which was black and hispanic, the non-dominicans (whom are ironically mostly black or mulatto) were quite open-minded.
It’s just something I’ve recently recalled from my youth when around young white boys, although white females are racist, it was white males by and large who acted like black girls were a no-go for them even for any affection. I recall many were JERKS ( just like in my adult experience as well), always looking to nitpick and criticize black girls. Kinda like that photo of the white boys attacking the young black girl who was trying to integrate that school, I would say that sums up how white men often are with black women, but things are changing and it’s not all over.
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Re:
@ alicia,
“I do recall though that young white males would things which would always exclude me like play body guard or whatever game it was called and I would be instantly ignored. Also, when discussing girls, right in front of me i would always be ignored as if white males grow up thinking it’s not right or normal for them to be attracted to black girls”
if you don’t mind my asking, what was body guard?
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@Adeen..“We, Black women need to expand our dating choices to other non White minority men because we can’t wait for Black men forever.”
No, we Black women need to love ourselves first and foremost, before we date/marry ANY MEN.
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@Peanut
I agree with that because if you’re a black woman and open to white men, be prepared for a lot of hurt, rejection and possible abuse. It was noted when I was in college that the black female students who would throw themselves on black men, would look silly because they were often being ignored or rejected subtly by white males. most are racists and those that are not, well 95% I’ve met were hateful or hate issues that have to do with them growing up in a white supremacist/anti-black world. I say go for Latinos whom come in any race and tend to be much more open-minded in terms of dating and marrying than White men. White men also have something against Black women where they think we should feel low and when we don’t will put alot of energy into trying to make us feel low and unnattractive which I feel is dangerous. I wouldn’t risk it.
————————————–
Re:
Peanut
with that being said, I think Black women should avoid white men and go for other men of color because most white men don’t even see Black women as real women any way…they see us as an oddity…as something below a woman…and really both white men AND Black men treat black women like last resort p*ssy to be honest…i’m sick of it. everyone thinks that black women will always be around to step on and screw around, we’ll see about that…
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Need to edit above: It should read:
” It was noted when I was in college that the black female students who would throw themselves on WHITE men, would look silly because they were often being ignored or rejected subtly by white males. “
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Alicia:
“I agree with that because if you’re a black woman and open to white men, be prepared for a lot of hurt, rejection and possible abuse. It was noted when I was in college that the black female students who would throw themselves on black men, would look silly because they were often being ignored or rejected subtly by white males. most are racists and those that are not, well 95% I’ve met were hateful or hate issues that have to do with them growing up in a white supremacist/anti-black world. I say go for Latinos whom come in any race and tend to be much more open-minded in terms of dating and marrying than White men. White men also have something against Black women where they think we should feel low and when we don’t will put a lot of energy into trying to make us feel low and unattractive which I feel is dangerous. I wouldn’t risk it.”
Amen, sista! ^_^
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Alicia:
I agree with this statement as well!!
” It was noted when I was in college that the black female students who would throw themselves on WHITE men, would look silly because they were often being ignored or rejected subtly by white males. “
Please allow me to piggy back onto your statement. The majority of white men, won’t reject these black women, that throw themselves on white men, because at the end of the day, white men are men and they won’t turn down sex, specially with a group of women, who they, ( white men ) regard as “easy” and sex can’t get enough of sex.
The thing that needs to be pointed out is this…The black women that throw themselves at white men, do it because they “think” or “Hope” that white men will look at them as a woman and not just a black woman and treat them as such. This is the big mistake that black women make, thinking that white men will treat them, how they treat their white women.
This is how black women, end up being a Negro bed wench for white men, that deceive them by leading them on into thinking, they will or would have children with them and marry them.
So in the end, i think black women are not going into dating or having sex with white men in the same way, that white men are, when they are having sex with black women.
The majority of white men, have no intentions of marrying, having children with or may not even want to be in a long term, long lasting relationship with a black woman, just long enough to satisfy their curiosity and fetishes they have for black women’s flesh.
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Peanut:
men of all races SUCK! they just suck. Abagond is the only Black men i’ve ever known who says he prefers black women openly…and even he doesn’t put black women at the top of his list all of the time, but it’s not just black men…I’ve realized that men in general just suck.
Well, at least now i know that you’re nothing more than a mad black woman, that’s just bitter and hate men. so i won’t bother taking anything you say, seriously any longer.
I might add, i have said several times in all my posts on this blog, that i prefer black women over any other race of women. I find it odd,that you only found, abagond, the only black man to ever made such a claim. On top of being a mad black woman, that’s bitter, because you’ve been hurt, you’re also an serious ass kisser and brown nosier of abagond.
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somebody needs a hug
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mstoogood4yall:
“somebody needs a hug”
LMAO! yanno?
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wow, let me get off here before something pops off.
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@sondis:
I discuss both genders – black men and black women. Why do you focus on black women specifically? I think that applies to black men/white women as well. Most white women are racists and often get black men into trouble ( I have one friend whose brother had to leave the college he attended because a white female he was talking to in a dorm room lied and said he tried to attack and rape her). Also, let’s discuss black male celebrities and white women whom become media darlings only to try to say to the world that black women are unwanted. You as a black male and I’m sure most black men see that the media always shows even unknown black male celebs with white women but the vast majority of black male celebrities and athletes whom have wives and g/f’s that are not black never get much media attention. We all know why.
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“Alicia
I discuss both genders – black men and black women. Why do you focus on black women specifically? I think that applies to black men/white women as well. Most white women are racists and often get black men into trouble ( I have one friend whose brother had to leave the college he attended because a white female he was talking to in a dorm room lied and said he tried to attack and rape her). Also, let’s discuss black male celebrities and white women whom become media darlings only to try to say to the world that black women are unwanted. You as a black male and I’m sure most black men see that the media always shows even unknown black male celebs with white women but the vast majority of black male celebrities and athletes whom have wives and g/f’s that are not black never get much media attention. We all know why.”
I was speaking about black women, because that’s what you were speaking about.
“Alicia
maxine,
I’m a black woman but to be honest a lot of black women do the same thing. There are even parts of MD where you will see lots of black women/white male couples and even on the net you will find many books, websites and videos online where black WOMEN dog out black men, and say false bull like how white men supposedly accept black women more, are more open to dark skin & natural hair and the like.
Plenty of black women also have half-white kids but you don’t see black men complaining.
It may be weird to us when we go to a public place and see a black male or two all over or pursuing white women and make us feel weird because of our history as blacks and how we’ve been devalued and our looks devalued under white supremacy, but plenty of black women do it too. I think because we are the opposite gender we don’t notice it. Luckily though, black men are not as vocal at fighting black women/other race couples. I think it makes us feel more sensitive because of how whites have dogged black looks and black beauty for so long.
In addition maxine, black men have it a bit worse than us in terms of the fact that we are held down and the MAN is supposed to be able to take care of their household, which society does not want black men to be able to do.”
This is what you said and what i was, responding too. You responded back and so did i. So there is no agenda to just talk about black women and not black men. if you had mentioned black men, then i would address that. You didn’t during the whole time, you were conversing with me.
I also agree with what you said of black men, I’ve mentioned black men’s part in dating white women in other posts on this blog, so just because i speak on black women, doesn’t mean its not true of black men, dating with women.
So please don’t assume or put words in my mouth.
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Some of these comments about “Black men and interracial unions” (mainly with ww) are ahistorical.
Black men have married/ slept with ww since Africans have been in the new world. There are several mixed raced Black groups in North America that are the direct product of Black men (either enslaved or free) and ww.
Contrary to popular belief because we are also dissecting historical sexual relations across the colorlines through the narrative lens of #Black men lynched because a ww or wp accused him of rape or #Black men were not allowed to go with ww, we fail to see the BIGGER picture and that included the first known anti-miscegenation laws which were a part of the Black Codes that enforced that a child was the race and status of his or mother, meaning: white women’s “black” children via enslaved Black men were FREE. Miscegenation laws were originally and perhaps have always been designed to keep Black women’s children with white men “non-white” (economically, socially and otherwise). This was because wealth and status (as mentioned earlier) was passed down through the females. Later a shift took place, but that’s a different post for a different day.
For every Mildred and Richard Loving at the time (Black woman and white man couple) there was a Heidi Klum and Seal Henry couple married and raising children TOGETHER–in the Deep South. One would be an absolute nut case to go with the premise that just because some Black men were lynched because of their perceived sexual threat to white supremacy that ALL of the mixed raced Black babies born were the product of Black women and white men. Absolutely false.
The point is this: Black men and Black women have faced severe sexual restrictions in North America anytime the “African” population is perceived to be growing “larger” in relation to the white population.
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I never kiss anyone’s ass on this blog, if you mean by always referring to or conversing with mstoogood4yall as ass kissing? I didn’t know this is considered ass kissing.
You on the other hand, regarding abagond with your statement on how no other black man on this entire blog, has ever said they love black women and prefer them over any other race of women is ass kissing and wrong, being it has been said, several times by me, brotherwolf and other black men on this site.
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“sondis, you kiss mztoogood azz all of the time”
oh rofl where was I when this happened I mean I don’t have much back there but i’d rather have my toes sucked then have my ass kissed.
“And i LOVE mstoogood btw, but you kiss people’s azz too!”
aw don’t we all, but I promise it was washed first.
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Silly me–that should read Abagond, “Contrary to popular belief because we are always dissecting historical sexual relations across the colorlines through the narrative len…”
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I know i am the only person on this blog, to have never kissed anyone’s ass, being i have had plenty of people, come at me for saying some very, controversial things in regards to interracial relationships in the last post on the subject.
I speak my mind, i am not concerned with being popular like most on here. I have made my agenda clear about why i am here and its not to be popular by any stretch of the imagination.
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^ bahwah its cool peanut
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Peanut
calling me a mad black woman was very hurtful, sondis!”
So now you’re playing the victim?
“Peanut:
men of all races SUCK! they just suck. Abagond is the only Black men i’ve ever known who says he prefers black women openly…and even he doesn’t put black women at the top of his list all of the time, but it’s not just black men…I’ve realized that men in general just suck.”
So you claim that all men “suck”, with the exception of abagon, which you never met and don’t know from a can of paint, only from which the articles he writes. yeah, that makes plenty of sense…
So by your logic, every black man on this blog is low life, cheating low down and dirty, bastard. ( with the exception of abagond, of coarse )
Then you have the nerve to say, “calling me a mad black woman was very hurtful”
What you said was disrespectful to not just me but every black man or men in “general” as you put it, that is reading your statement but i should be concerned about your feelings, solely?
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Opps….my mistake @ : o x ) >
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That one book, that i haven’t read…men are from mars, women are from venus. @ : o l ) >
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I never told you how to feel, Peanut.
I was just responding to your, offensive comment about men.
The same way you don’t like Misogyny as a woman, I as a man, doesn’t like misandry.
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I can see yall both hurt sondis hurt he didn’t get mentioned as one of the males that prefers black women, peanut hurt sondis responded by saying she kiss abagond as. I don’t think this is worth going back n forth. u wanna talk about victims i’m the victim here, that’s right I am me. I was about to log off and eat some… then I see my name and the word ass in the same sentence, now I lost my appetite. so now I will go to bed hungry.lol
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“Peanut
I can VENT if i want to…”
Not at the expensive of others you can’t! even your precious abagond, would oppose to you, using such language against men on his blog.
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mstoogood4yall:
“I can see yall both hurt sondis hurt he didn’t get mentioned as one of the males that prefers black women”
This isn’t correct, mstoogood4yall. I wasn’t “hurt” more than, offended by such, misandry, spewed by Peanut. My objection, had nothing to do with the fact that they left out me and a host of others, that have professed their love for black women and only black women. I just was pointing it out to prove her statement that abagond was the only one to have claimed as such was wrong.
Let me put it this way…
if a man, black or white would say the things she was saying about women on this very thread, all women would be up in arms on this blog and abagond would delete that post but because a woman ( peanut ) said the things about men, it was to be accepted and not challenged.
Imagine if a man would use the excuse, ” I WAS VENTING, I CAN VENT IF I WANT TOO! After saying, ” ALL WOMEN ARE WHORES AND SUCK”
anyone get the picture?
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sondis
“Peanut
I can VENT if i want to…”
Not at the expense of others you can’t! even your precious abagond, would oppose to you, using such language against men on his blog.
typo of expense and not “expensive” -_-
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^ if a man came on here and said all women suck then i’d think hmm then go be with another man then or become a priest. or that he may have an issue with his gf or lack of one and is frustrated. Now I would get upset if someone came on here and said only black women suck.
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mstoogood4yall
^ if a man came on here and said all women suck then i’d think hmm then go be with another man then or become a priest. or that he may have an issue with his gf or lack of one and is frustrated
So i guess, this is the advice, you would give Peanut, being she is the person who said it about men, NOT a man, saying it about women.
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“Legion
As far as I can see you’re near always the only man who gets upset when the women complain about men. Women’s complaints of men are important to hear.”
complaints, not insults… can you differentiate between the two? I guess not…
ALL MEN SUCK is in insult and not a complaint.
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Oh legion u back I missed seeing ur ship.
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wo this one took off
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oooh miss francine and me gonna see each other real soon, she’s cool and college educated and sober, a real good combo for me
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@adeen i aint about tellin you whom to see
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This is a great post. Seems to me that there is alot of knee jerk reactions going on from people who are unable to think critically about the subject. The notion that love is color blind and know’s no racial or cultural boundaries becomes of interracial unions is hilarious. As many have commented some of the most covertly racist people that I know are part of interracial unions.
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@Deb, you said it best, “No, we Black women need to love ourselves first and foremost, before we date/marry ANY MEN.”
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@$0.02…Thanx for that, Sister! That’s the hardest for us to do given the assaults from ALL quarters — but it’s the absolute MOST important. It was a lesson I had to learn early on and over time. And trust me, once I did — all the other BS was totally inconsequential (Peanut, you listenin’??). Let me tell you, I lo-o-oves me some me!! 🙂
Peace…
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I’ve dated different races, at a time I preferred Asian men (North Asian, not Indian) and I’ve had flings with “Latin Lovers,” I’ve came across White guys who I thought got me. I find Asian women attractive and have even started looking at Latinas. But all my actual relationships have been with Black men (the longest was 3 years, I’m a spring chicken, lol). In high school and after 6 years of dating in my early 20’s, I’m finally in a relationship again, and he’s Black. I hope he is my husband to be cause I hate dating.
I don’t care the color, height, weight, ethnicity, culture, religion, etc. If a guy doesn’t want you or is just incapable of loving someone or does not know how, dating is torture. I am not not the epitome of high self esteem – hopefully if I have children, they have a mother and father how can express love to them, my parents slacked on that. So to put all your emotion into someone, to depend on someone on yourself worth if you can’t stand yourself is just a snake biting it’s own tale.
I could care less about waiting for a Black man or a man at all. I just want to have a mutual love, to be in love and have someone who’s going to go to bat for me and make things work. Someone who isn’t trying to push me away or mistreat me. Everyone deserves that.
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typos:
* WHO can express love to them
* YOUR self worth
* snake biting it’s own TAIL.
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@adeen for some reason i can really relate and talk to black women that’s just me
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Sondis/Alicia
I’m not sure which one wrote but I think it refers back to Alicia
I somewhat agree however the only time a mixed union between white men/black women really affect a black man is when that bm exclusively dates black women only…most of the time when black men date out ,even if its just sex,they have disassociated any emotional ties they have with black women and so it doesn’t affect them,just like when a black women dates exclusively white men..she isn’t really bothered at all what black men are dating…it only has an impact on bw who solely date bm.
I personally don’t think Celebs like Kym Kardashian and Kanye West are a good example of a united interracial couple because I think that they got together because Kym Kardashian practically would have ended up with any man that was black,it was said that she went out with a long line of black rappers so while she its clear she has a sexual preference for bm -its clear that any baby mixed would be impossible to create with someone not black and I feel a large amount of non black women really do date bm for the very reason of solely wanting yellow babies with fuzzy hair-a man wants the latest car with the top notch gadgets but a nurturing women wants beautiful kids..
I know plenty of white women who have mixed kids and end up going back to white men and I don’t feel that most bm who date out,do so for the right reasons-a lot of time they feel pride to have white women on their arm/follow other black men by going with the trend because its popular or seen as ‘fashionable’,do so because they feel white women physically are better looking yet many of these same bm are probably the ones that are dating average looking white women which shows they settle for the women they get so long as she has white skin…it has nothing to do with with who is aesthetically better looking.
When a white male dates out especially with bw, you find its more genuine,due to the hierarchy system he has nothing to gain by dating black women as she is at the bottom where he is at the top,however when black men who are also at the bottom date anyone above them on the system-it seems they are stepping up-but whatever women who is above them is seen as stepping down when she dates a black man.-showing that white men date bw because their reasoning tends to be more genuine,which probably reflects in the stats that when white men date bw,their union is more successful then when bm date white women.
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I googled “Blasian” and these beautiful people showed up (http://youtu.be/R2C8r4eLIVc)
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@$0.02…“I could care less about waiting for a Black man or a man at all. I just want to have a mutual love, to be in love and have someone who’s going to go to bat for me and make things work. Someone who isn’t trying to push me away or mistreat me. Everyone deserves that.”
Sister, your two cents is worth a million damned bucks! Thanx for sharing…
For all my beautiful Sisters here — this is all we REALLY need to be waiting for!!: (http://youtu.be/wEFxQpdjuFw)
{Abagond, I hope my old ass got it right this time!}
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“maxine:
“When a white male dates out especially with bw, you find its more genuine,due to the hierarchy system he has nothing to gain by dating black women as she is at the bottom where he is at the top,however when black men who are also at the bottom date anyone above them on the system-it seems they are stepping up-but whatever women who is above them is seen as stepping down when she dates a black man.-showing that white men date bw because their reasoning tends to be more genuine,which probably reflects in the stats that when white men date bw,their union is more successful then when bm date white women.”
I don’t agree with this statement, its self-serving as a black woman, that you would say that white men who date black women, do so in a genuine way.
So white women, have something to gain by dating a black man but white men doesn’t, when dating a black woman? You’re being hypocritical, how can you say one is true for one and not the other? what are you basing this on?, your opinion?
I am basing my theory on the history of how white men have treated and look at black women in the past and present, not my opinion.
This is being, disingenuous in the least and naive at best to say that the majority of white men, look at black women in a serious sense and not as exotic creatures to satisfy their sexual fetishes with black women.
Also, to say that is to ignore the history of white men, looking at black women in this very fashion, like they did in slavery and Jim crow and all the way up to this point. So by your logic, somehow, white men’s mindset of black women, just up and changed, if you believe that, then you may believe that the majority of white men, are not racist again black women, too.
The majority of white men, “date and have sex with” black women, out of pure fetish, experimentation, because they can and black women, throw themselves at white men, being they are white struck, just like black men, regarding white is right.
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@sondis…“The majority of white men, “date and have sex with” black women, out of pure fetish, experimentation, because they can and black women, throw themselves at white men, being they are white struck, just like black men, regarding white is right.”
First of all, let’s be clear — I love you my Brother and I appreciate your including that “majority” qualifier. But, c’mon, Man, it’s obvious you could leave it out and that’s how you’d still feel (kinda like Dr. Umar Johnson to whom you once referred me). And you know what? That’s fine with me.
But the above statement is more of a generalization than even an inkling of the truth. I feel I’m particularly qualified to speak on it since I am, and have been in such a relationship probably for longer than you’ve been alive (I’m guessing cuz you look so young in your avatar photo! :-)). Don’t get it twisted, I agree, your opinion has been the dominant opinion since time immemorial. Back in the 80’s when I married, I can’t lie and say that didn’t cross my mind (I’m from SC for Chrissakes!) — but TRUST, there was no “throwing myself at him” because I was “white struck” (Color struck yes. Let’s be real, what did you expect of my dark chocolate ass in Dixie?? White struck, absolutely not — I hated white folk for how they teated me and mine in that SC town).
That said though, your opinion totally gives us Black women NO AGENCY in our own lives! It’s as if we’re too, f*ckin’ stupid to know the whys an wherefores of our own lives and relationships and I, for one, take issue with that. Let me tell you Brother, I came to my marriage 100%WHOLE. We met in the Navy at language school — I was neither pregnant, nor penniless, nor looking for a man. I was getting a damned Navy paycheck, had a future as a linguist, hanging out and partying in Monterey, CA — just like him. I was “FOINE,” as was he in my eyes and we fell in LOVE. He treated me with dignity and respect and I reciprocated, because that’s what I needed in my 24 year-old life at the time. I went where I was loved. I never bad-mouthed Black men (Jesus H. Christ! My damned Grandaddy, Daddy, and 23 year-old brother were Black men!). I never thought, “white was right” or that because I was “Black, stay back.” I loved myself some damned me — and he did too, or he wouldn’t still b here after 32 years.
Brother, I suggest you treat us as individuals, with minds of our damned own. Disagree with us on issues and principle if you must — but LOVE AND RESPECT us as we do you. Just cuz we love you, doesn’t mean we forget, nor does it give you license to disrespect us. After all, there’s no amount of money, bleaching cream nor outside influence that can erase the Black that we ALL are and will be — no matter what the hell happens. We still live in a dangerous, violent and unsettled world that sees us as less than — Trayvon Martin, Miriam Carey, Jack Lamar Roberson and John Constantino (to name a few) prove that. Let’s not add to THEIR crazy by inflicting it on each other, mkay?
Peace, Family…
(Abagond, I apologize for being a space hog)
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@ sondis
Its not self serving for me to be honest in what I have experienced with white men and them expressing their love to me in a way that is unpretentious but unconditional.
White men who date black women don’t have to,they choose to,they can mostly have the pickings and if he chooses a black women its evident that he doesn’t have anything to prove,especially when the consensus of the media coverage etc does not always show black women in the right way…you look at these superficial studies and he could easily be swayed by negative attitudes and follow the majority but these type men have a preference for black women and that can not be denied.
Yes agreed that there are white men whom do have a asian or black women fetish and its purely sexual but most do not.
I didn’t say white women had more to gain by dating black men I actually think they have less,because certain people tend to look down on white women who date black men especially if he’s not famous or has no money-when have you heard of a famous or rich white women taking a common black man…never or its rare-however when you turn the situation around its very common for rich bm that feel the need to take any women that is not black-mainly white women,that is very telling of the issues of how he sees himself as a black man and the general consensus is that in order to think of himself as achieved he has to have a white women only assumes what people think of bm in situations like this,but just don’t dare to say.
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maxine:
“Yes agreed that there are white men whom do have a asian or black women fetish and its purely sexual but most do not.”
I disagree, MOST or the MAJORITY of white men, look at black women as purely sexual, play things.
Just because you got your white prize ( a white man ) and he treats you good, doesn’t mean the “MAJORITY” of white men, would even marry or have children with a black woman, let alone, not look at black women as something to have sex with any nothing more.
This is what I’m talking about black people, whenever a black person, gets into a relationship with a white person, they thing its the best thing, since sliced bread and try to convince, other black people, that its the way to go.
These black people, expect other blacks to be Negro bed wenches and Mandingos for white men and women, in between hoping to find that one white person in a million, that don’t look at us as something just to screw and throw away in the trash, when their done. I don’t think so, i am not willing to be any white woman’s Mandingo.
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@Peanut
”ALL Men suck?”
How did you come up with this premise? I would love to find a guy to date right now but how did you come up with this opinion?
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@Maxine
According to research that I have done Black women and non Black male marriages are the most stable and the least likely to divorce.
Why is that?
Black men and White women relationships, on the other hand, have the highest divorce rate out of all interracial reunions and in the country.
Several theories I have to the high divorce rate between Black men and non Black women particularly White women is that they can’t culturally relate to a Black male. And the Black male can’t culturally relate to her either. Most Black men date outside of their race for the wrong reasons. A lot of it has to do with self hate and not loving and valuing being a Black man. Also many of them see a non Black women as a way to tell the world that he has ”achieved something”. Or they had bad experiences with Black women and think non Black women would be a better alternate to them.
And believe it or not, Most White women who date Black men actually sexually objectify Black men. They just want to experiment with Black men and ride on his big ****. I am excluding Kim Kardashian and other non Black women who genuininely like Black men and don’t just experiment with them, They want to ride his big **** but she still believes her White skin is better than his big ****
Now you see why Black men and White women relationships barely work out unless they love each other and get together for the right reasons.
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there is a lot of us that date outside our race and it’s just part of normal dating, not as many as stay in their lane obviously
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Peanut , sorry to see you dragged through the mud under the false pretence of “keeping it real”…you dont deserve it…
Isnt it interesting, most black men are with black women, most Asian men are with Asian women, but, look at the huge disscusions of interracial sex with white people (after all , that is what the big hang up is on here, its interracial sex with white people) , and the huge amount of cyber space and energy it takes up
Yeah, interracial sex is just too juicy and exciting to ignore
Im really wondering at the psycho analysis going on in such abundance on here?
First, I dont trust psychoanalysis , period…its a murky science, ancient understandings of the inner being , go much deeper with greater results than psychoanalysis ever could…
So , that being said, is anyone on here a trained psychoanalysist? Because I see a huge amount of psychoanalysing, generalising and stereyotyping
The thing is, in america, the roots for the political agenda coming from some black posters, being bitten by some Asian posters on here, are very tracable , and can be found as the bilge water from the huge black civil Rights Movement in the late 60’s..which had incredible things , and was key to bringing civil rights and black awareness to the front…is it any wonder that in a movement so big andimportant , that there would be some agendas that were unhealthy and didnt really play out on the ground..?
.along with unrealistic bans on interracial sex, culturaly destroying tap dancing and putting down Armstrong , and forgetting the history of their grand parents were just some of the other political agendas that got put out there with no reguard for the consequences…and, as is well on display, interracial sex attitudes are dominating and raking over the coals , the narrative of black civil rights in America , and reaking havoc…in a most negative way
Lets be clear, its racist whites who were first and formost against interracial relationships
The sex in the back woodshed with a black women , by white men is mostly a southern white male origin…I guarentee you, most white men in the Chicago area where I grew up, didnt think of black women as sexual outlits ,,,at that time…in the north, there was just pure division and hate …which makes notions of pushing black people to have sex with white people as some kind of white strategy, sounds ridiculous and pathetic…i mean that is some twisted convolution
“sex with the white slave master” as some kind of reality is as absurd as saying there is no legacy of slavery going on in the Americas…sounds like a dichotomy? But it isnt, they are two differant things…mutual consenting sex by two adults is way too complex than to break it down into steryotypes and generalisations
Or the notions a black person will gain some kind of status being with a white person? I mean really , just look at the scrutinising, generalising, steryotyping and dogging going on here or on storm front, no, anyone going into an interracial relationship, is going to be examined way beyond any normal being looked over…they are going to have to fasion there own special set of defences and antennas, to be on the look out for narrow minded people of all colors
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Adeen, I agree very much about what you said about “culture”…I actualy think that is the larger picture…most white Americans are culturaly ignorant of the value and depth of black American culture…most of them have copied black culture and dont know it, or , know they like pop black culture of their generation, but cant take it any deeper than that…the destroying of black culture was the main thrust of slavery, destroying the slaves culture was the goal and the thinking that culture was inferior, was the basis for creating races in the first place
culture is a very deep factor in this reality
and, where I support your personal choices, we can agree to disagree about whether white people and black people can or cannot have interracial relationships…or why or why not
but, one thing you have said, you are a black nationalist….I hope, in your quest to be a black nationalist, that you will go back and actualy look at the black Civil Rights movement, and be able to analyse all the things that came out of back then, and what did immence good, and what attitudes should be jetisoned, because they are doing damage
and, I also hope, after your correct observation about culture, that you might go and examine the real struggle and histories of various Afro diasporic cultures , because the story of those cultures is the story of the Afro diasporic battle to survive in the Americas…and that story is lost in this anti interracial sex diatrades…what a waste of time
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@B.R.
interracial sex is no more exciting and juicy than any other type of sex (if the partner is right).
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While I agree that hispanic is not a race, I do think they should be categorized differently than what they are today. Most Hispanics that i know do not see themselves as white or black but as their ethnicity. For example my husband and his family always refer to themselves as Mexican when asked what they are. Some Puerto ricans I know do the same.
I know that people are quick to categorize them as their own when one commits a crime. Funny how that works…you are white until you commit a crime, then you are black or hispanic lol.
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Yeah, Sharina, but you wouldnt know that from the reams and reams of disscusion about it
I mean my god,just look at thread after thread after thread about nothing but anti interracial sex
Is that healthy? This is cold blooded reality…people cant get enough talking about it…they must be doing a whole lot of thinking about it
I would never say interracial sex is anything more than consenting sex between two adults
why do people in interracial relationships have to put up with any more scrutiny than anyone else?
We dont diserve to have disgruntled people staring at us because of their hangups
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@Adeen
Nice theory. My next door neighbor was married to a white woman. He divorced her and took the kids some years back. The reason was basically because she was not what he thought she was going to be. She did not keep house, she sun bathed topless in the front yard for all to see etc. Surprising though he is now with a black female.
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@B.R.
I try not to read the comments because I know how these type of thoughts go. Then as the conversation continues I will just go have sex with my husband and call it a day.
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Ha ha, yeah, me too, Sharina…that happens with me a lot after reading these comments
its just that, no one can deny on here, when the subject is interracial sex..or relationships…there is a huge amount of discusion…abnormaly so…huge huge huge
yet I cant get people to go back and analyse and dissect the exact origins of these attitudes
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sondis,
“I disagree, MOST or the MAJORITY of white men, look at black women as purely sexual, play things.”
And this differs from how black men see black women?
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@sondis
I am the prize,he got lol lets not get it twisted but seriously you are thinking in a box,what you need to do is change your original thought process because you are basing everything around color…and its a lot more broader than that.
Take away the color and the man is still going to be the man,that goes without saying-it was never about color with us,
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@adeen
Yes,you have reiterated what I said so I think we can agree that we both think from the same hymn book lol
A lot of bm go into these relations with white women with a blanket view of how they think white women are and when these white women are not always the way the media portray,the bm is disillusioned
White women are gentle
Submissive
Are Great mothers
Are basically perfect
and the reality is very different from the dream…
A lot of ww assume bm to be like wm ,but bm are very different,different attitudes,beliefs and goals and when a white women I guess doesn’t get the lifestyle/treatment she has been accustomed to she pines for that way of life.
I think a massive,massive part that links bm with ww is the sex-ww want to be bamboozled by a black beast lol..but sex is not enough to sustain a true,meaningful relationship so it eventually dies as it can’t hold together for too long because just like flower withers away and dies so does the relationship.
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@maxine,
can’t the same be said for black women who seek out white men, even though the vast majority are hateful in terms of blacks? What about all the youtube videos and online blogs that dog out black men and claim white men are like some sort of saviours?
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@Kiwi,
You posted a few posts b*tching about “Hapas” you have known or met and you have nothing positive to say about them. However, you addressed them to me. 😮 I am not sure what you want me to do with your comments. Maybe you could take a step back and imagine what kind of environment they have to grow up in, esp. those who had an Asian parent who is constantly denouncing other Asians and a white spouse who validates the Asian spouse’s assessment. It can cause the child to grow up with a certain amount of internalized racism and it is hard to say exactly how that will be expressed.
I have some beef about how white people in America are sometimes, but I have not had a very cheery experience with many Asian-Americans either, esp those who were rather westernized / white-washed and suddenly realized one day that they were Asian and then expressed resentment over what I was.
When I was in the USA, I started to feel anxious around Americans in general (blacks, whites AND Asians and Latinos) and began to hang around more with non-Americans who had not yet picked up American racial attitudes.
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I am married to a white man and I don’t understand black women seeking or in interracial relationships that will talk *isht about black men. Definitely points to some issues of self-hatred and/or mental issues. No one is perfect, and just because as a woman you have only had lousy experiences with black men only proves that YOU have had lousy experiences with some black men. I have dated nearly every ethnicity of male and *gasp* they are people and individuals. Still, just my experiences. I can’t paint any one type of man with a broad base not with regard to character. Sometimes the people one ends up dating says as much about that person. Before I met my husband I was in a relationship with a black male of Cape Verdian heritage, but it didn’t work out. I did not go screaming for the hills and declaring every black man a psycho then rushing into the arms of a white man. I was just always open to accepting love when it came in whatever package it came in.
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“solesearch
sondis,
“I disagree, MOST or the MAJORITY of white men, look at black women as purely sexual, play things.”
And this differs from how black men see black women?”
We aren’t talking about, how black men, see black women now, are we?
The whole post is talking about interracial relationships, black men and black women, doesn’t constitute a interracial relationship.
Nice try at derailing my point but you failed, miserably.
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@msgoodtooyall
Agree about Mr. Obama. He’s okay. I don’t think that mixed race people are any more attractive than anyone else. Many also look pretty monoracial and you wouldn’t necessarily guess they were mixed. Lenny Kravitz, Halle and Russell Wong had me fooled for sure.
@Kiwi
Your auntie is a trip as are all people claiming one race is better looking or uglier. I’ve seen some smoking hot asian men just walking down the street. I have no idea what she’s talking about! It’s funny too, because my sister in law in Asian and she thinks the same thing about Asian men. Then I started listing all the famous smoking hot Asian dudes to shut her up. LOL.
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@Legion
I should have stuck with my original comment of sitting this one out.
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@poetess
THANK YOU!
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maxine:
“what you need to do is change your original thought process because you are basing everything around color…and its a lot more broader than that.”
I tell you what maxine, just as soon as white people in America, will stop basing everything around color, then so will i.
I am working within the confines of the box in which i am, contained.
Don’t expect me to think from outside of this, social construct that the white man has created for himself.
“Take away the color and the man is still going to be the man,that goes without saying-it was never about color with us,”
This is what every black man and woman, would LOVE for white people to do but fail, over and over.
So you found a white man that hasn’t failed in this regard, so by your logic, just because you have your white prize, the MAJORITY of white men, “TAKE AWAY THE COLOR AND SEE BLACK WOMEN AS WOMEN FIRST AND NOT BLACK, FIRST.
Again people, don’t be fooled by these black house kneegrows, they date the white man and all of a sudden, WHITE PEOPLE AREN’T RACIST ANYMORE!, THEY DON’T HARBOR, RACIST STEREOTYPICAL VIEWS OF BLACK PEOPLE ANYMORE, BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVING SEX OR IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A BLACK PERSON!
I’ve heard this music before.
A white person being in a marriage or relationship with a black person, means nothing in terms of the white person not being racist, still looking from a white self serving, white lens that a white person has looked through, their whole lives.
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@B.R.
I agree. These topics are hot and they quickly get way out of hand. I can see the writing on the wall, but poetess brought in a good point. Interracial relationships are fine but when one starts bashing their own race then….issues.
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maxine:
“A lot of ww assume bm to be like wm ,but bm are very different,different attitudes,beliefs and goals”
This makes no sense, whatsoever.
The sole purpose of a white woman, dating a black man is NOT because a white woman thinks, the black man, acts the same as a white man, has the same attitudes,beliefs and goals.
I’ve talked to some white women that date black men and asked them, why do you prefer a black man, over your white men?
They always respond in a similar way by saying, ” black men are more masculine”, black men have more “swag”, “black men have that element of danger” , “i feel more save with a black man, than a white man” ( i guess this means that black men are brutal and can beat the hell out of their white men )
I think you get the picture, their are plenty of reasons why a white women, chooses a black man over their own white men but the reason you gave, “white women, assume black men will be like white men” is false on so many levels.
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One thing Id like to say, there are a number of people in interracial relationships who post on here and a number of mixed race people, and I dont think I ever saw a post that said mixed race kids were more beautiful…there may have been one, but it isnt the standard…Ive said the race mixture n Brazil is beautiful , and it is, beautiful, and wonderful and, rmarkable for all the differant shades and differant combinations you can see of the people involved, but that doesnt mean racially mixed kids are more beautiful than mono race kids…
And I havent heard many of the same people, and not me , say interracial relationships cure racism…
That never was the issue…”colorism” can cross lines, but , it is not the major all tie in issue…many black Americans deal with colorism issues, but, dont desire to date white people…who is to say if any person’s psychoanalysis of someone else , is valid? or isnt tainted with their own personal traumas and bias? How can they really judge other people’s behavior from a distance?
I can out anecedote anyone on here…for getting physical intimidation attempts (they sure didnt succeed) for going out with black women, from all sides, I could talk of the 4 other sister in laws I have who had failed relationships with black and brown men, who left them with children, and are now being nurtured by white men , except I dont beleive in stereotypes , and I sure dont beleive black men are failures, I beleive the men in those relationships, didnt work out..they happened to be black..because a sister had a contact over seas, they ended up there and met men there…
I could tell you about the beautiful black singer I was with for a minute, who was brutily raped by a big black man…and , maybe you could say that she hooked up mostly with white men because of that…but, she adored black men, loved them…she pushed a black drummer on Freddie Hubbard behind my back when I was trying to hustle for the gig..and didnt get it…ahhhhh she would never say anything bad about black men, and I never had a relationship with a black woman where that was the discussion…never
I beleive in people’s personal choices , and them paying their own personal consequences if they make a mistake..
By all means , warn people of differant types of white people’s behavior, that could tip someone off they are a racist…but, make it a mandate, generalise, stereotype, and pseudo psychoanalise black people who have made their own choices , for their moments in life….?
Is that the real front line of the battle against white racism?
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Sharina, yes, I agree, there are flags, and for sure , there are varying degrees of why people get into bad relationships..I cant see making it a mandate…warn people of behaviors, put the information of colorism out there, but, people get to decide for themselves what their personal relationships are..they will pay for bad choices…
It reminds me passing through O Hara airport with my son and he had a coat and tie and breifcase, at about 12 years old…the cute black attendant of TSA, said, “…Bryant Gumbel…” she was wrong about his intentions…he was James Bond
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Kiwi:
“So by your statements, do you believe that white intermarriage with Asians poses a greater threat to the Asian community and culture?”
I would have to yes, being that Asians are more of a minority in America, than blacks but i think you knew that already. ^_^
I also would like to point out that the Asian community, seems to be fine with their race, being wiped out by having children with white people.
The majority of Asians have embraced, being the model minority by white people, unlike the majority of black people, that have rejected being sells outs.
Therefore, Asians seems to be digging their own grave and the trade off is being a model minority. You can’t have it both ways…..
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@Maxine,
Good article by a black women about her brother’s marriage to a white women. She was’t the submissive, loyal wife.
Your Spouse May Be Black, But You’re Still Racist:
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@B. R.
I agree.
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sharina, whatchu doing over there—-> ^_^
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@ sondis *sigh* i guess it’s time.
>So what, they contact us in a impersonal way on the down low and always >want to meet us at a hotel, when they happen to be on a “business trip”
what do you expect on a dating site? My mom always said that’s for people who can’t get dates otherwise. I’m proud to be with an attractive black woman in public.
>Black women, being women, want more than just sex. They want marriage and >commitment, this is what white men use to lure the black woman.
I have dated some pretty wild black women on some real ish
>The fact that white men, will marry a white woman, have white children, get a >divorce and then all of a sudden, want a black woman?? That’s suspect to >me…
my first real girlfriend (i had had one before in high school but it didn’t last) when i was in college was black and native american, identified as black, looked black. I dated many many many black and spanish women before i got married.
I had posted some of this all but it was a drunken postin night and most of it got zapped, it was not put forward in a calm and rational fashion last time.
I was tryin to get a ring for vicki we were very poor when she died, we had been together over a year.
I don’t know dude clearly i’m not speaking for the average white office worker or blue collar dude or anything resembling normal but hey there it is.
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v8driver:
I’m speaking about, the MAJORITY of white men of how they see black women, NOT THE MINORITY, which you claim to be.
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@ sondis my new one 2 years younger than me but my last 6-7 gf’s (i do go through them) been 5-7 years older
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dude i think i lay a ligitimate claim to not bein like too many other people in general
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i take crap from people family especially for having gone black, trust and believe
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@mstoogood4yall re: miley cyrus, clearly she is miss wonderbread, hannah montana, dad a white country singer etc etc, from the heartland and all that crap, i think white ppl that are becoming cultural competent (if they can) or at least expanding to new cultures, clearly she has encountered some black influences with ‘twerking’ et al., i think we go though that dropping the n word and stuff hopefully she will grow out of it. isn’t she pregnant with a black rappers’ baby
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it’s probably hard for her or let say that tim allen fellow to have some black friends educate them on proper respect if they have the celebtriy ego too
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@Maxine
I agree with you. lol I am glad we both agree here. And I wonder why Black women have longer lasting relationships and marriages with non Black males. Statistics say that Black women and non Black male marriages are the most stable and the least likely to divorce.
How come?
And as a Black woman, I don’t plan on ever dating or marrying a White male. They are so gross to me the way that they look down on and hate Black people and the way they look too.
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@Mstoogood4yall
Why are you so obsessed with Miley Cyrus? She is just twerking and crap to get attention. Trust me, she is on her way downhill. She is the next Lindsay Lohan!
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I don’t think one can ever get a real idea of who is dating or marrying who when you start with a false premise. Which of course is the fallacy of race being an actual thing.
Wouldn’t a better way to look at this topic be to study marriage or dating using ethnicity as your starting point? For instance I wonder how different the dating patterns are between Korean – American, Japanese – American and Chinese – American women? Probably very different. But, if all of the women are just put into the “Asian” category then the result will be very generalized and probably not reflective of what happens in the real world.
Also. I think regional difference would be interesting to look at.
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@Sondis
This is from a Sister to a Brotha. I know why White female date Black men.
MOST White females have a fetish for Black males and only date them because they want to ride his big ****. Many of them think that Black men have big ****s and want to experiment with one. Yet the average White woman still thinks her White skin is more valuable than his big ****.
MOST White women sexually objectify Black women for their own purposes. And MOST White women prefer White men if they want to be in a real relationship with a man. I wouldn’t say White women love Black men because lust and sexually objectifying is not love at all. At the end of the day, the White woman is the female counterpart of the White male. She only serves the purposes of White males and to help White males continue the system of White supremacy.
In other words, beware of White women and don’t ever trust or date one. Like White men, they aren’t to be trusted.
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Adeen:
You won’t get any argument from me with that statement.
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@ adeen
I only mentioned miley because I was responding to someone about non blacks with black friends and I used miley as an example of someone who is non black and has black friends and can still be racist.
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How about White male and Asian women relationships? I have also read that White male and Asian women marriages also have a high divorce rates as well as Black male and White women marriages.
I have never really studied these type of relationships in depth like I have Black male and White female relationships though
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@Sondis
How is my favorite Brotha doing? I am glad you agree with me! White women are just as dangerous as White men because they use their feminine wiles to tempt you to sleep with them and help the White man continue the oppressive system of White supremacy.
I command any Black man to stay away from White women!
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@Mstoogood4yall
I agree with you on your premise on Miley Cyrus though. She may be racist though. To me, there is nothing more dangerous than a White person who acts like they are down with us yet they hold racist views against Black people. Those type of Whites send chills down my spine. I even have more respect for the David Dukes and Edgar Hoovers of the world than these so called Liberal Whites who act like they are down with Blacks but hold racist views against Blacks.
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sondis,
It’s not derailing. You’re saying black women shouldn’t date white men because they see black women as nothing but sex objects. I just pointed out that black men do the same thing. So that really isn’t a valid reason to object to black women dating/marrying white guys.
That’s not derailing. That’s pointing out how illogical and insincere you are being. You don’t care about black women being treated as play things. Your objection to black women dating/marrying white men is more about your feelings than any concern for black women.
If you are truly concerned about black women you would emphasize dating good guys not black ones.
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solesearch
sondis,
It’s not derailing. You’re saying black women shouldn’t date white men because they see black women as nothing but sex objects. I just pointed out that black men do the same thing. So that really isn’t a valid reason to object to black women dating/marrying white guys.
That’s not derailing. That’s pointing out how illogical and insincere you are being. You don’t care about black women being treated as play things. Your objection to black women dating/marrying white men is more about your feelings than any concern for black women.
If you are truly concerned about black women you would emphasize dating good guys not black ones.”
” I just pointed out that black men do the same thing”
This is derailing, when you attempt to change the subjects of the post by bringing up black men.
Typical tactic by white men to always bring the black man into the discussion, when pointing out, what WHITE MEN DO TO BLACK WOMEN.
The black man is always at fault, even when the black man, has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
You’re claim of what i said was an outright, lie! I NEVER, said anything about, “black women, shouldn’t date white men” quote me in all my responses to this thread on me saying, “black women should not date white men”
I am pointing out, that the majority of white men, don’t take black women seriously and for that, you ( a white man ) takes that as, me telling black women, not to date white men. You obviously, aren’t able to differentiate, between those two.
This is typical of white people, they twist and contort, black people’s words and then project their opinion onto us.
Then you go as far as to tell me, what i do and don’t care about, typical white man’s feelings are hurt, because a black man is telling his secret, so black women will stay oblivious to his tricks to getting a black women in the sack to sleep with.
I’m wasting my time, i don’t go back and forth with white people, you’re agenda is clear, i can care less what you, a white person says or thinks about anything i say on a black blog, that’s owned and operated by a black man and for black people.
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@sharina
“interracial sex is no more exciting and juicy than any other type of sex (if the partner is right).”
idk about that one
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@Solesearch
White men have been sexually objectifying Black women’s bodies for centuries by raping our bodies and abusing it. Many Black men follow suit in sexually objectifying Black women’s bodies and degrading us Black women because many of them suffer from self hate and want to be like White men.
I am also against Black women dating White men as well and as Black women, we can both debate on this.
My argument:
No self respecting Black woman of any ethnicity should date or marry a White American male because White American males are our enemies and oppressors, most of them are racist and look down on Black people and most of all, a White American male only sexually objectify Black women.
White American males are the ones who made the White supremacist system that runs the country of AmeriKKKlan that benefits them and ensures their place on top of the economic and social ladder of this country. White American male created the system to the advantage of him, his White female and White children and much to the disadvantage of Black males, Black women and Black children. Black people were enslaved and picked cotton, which helped the White male prosper from slavery. It was the White man who made sure that we are disadvantaged and taken advantage of in our own country! The way that White males treat Black people in the past and the present ensure us that they are our enemies and oppressors.
Second of all, most White American males are very racist and look down on Black people. This mindset that White is right and that Black is bad in AmeriKKKlan started from the founding of this country. The Founding Fathers didn’t see us Black people as more than property to be used and abused. To this day, most White American males still see us Black people as subhuman, apes who don’t contribute anything to society. Why would you date someone who looks down on your race, culture or ethnicity?
Last but not least, White American males only want the chance to have a casual fling with Black women whom they find attractive. Most White Americans males don’t want a real relationship with a Black woman because they don’t see us as worthy of being in a relationship with. Beautiful Black women are just sexual objects for them to use and abuse. In that way, they are just like their ancestors in sexually objectifying Black women only they don’t rape us as frequently as they did in the slavery days.
Thus I don’t think Black women and White American males should even think of dating or marrying each other. The very thought makes me sick and I am a Black woman writing this. Why date and marry the enemy?
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@adeen
>This is from a Sister to a Brotha. I know why White female date Black men.
>MOST White females have a fetish for Black males and only date them because >they want to ride his big ****. Many of them think that Black men have big ****s and >want to experiment with one. Yet the average White woman still thinks her White >skin is more valuable than his big ****.
eh, yeah ok … not. trust me on that one. i mean size is proportional to size, if the dude is over 6′ chances are you know, he has big feet, but no… that is a myth. or maybe … idk i dont want to get into this with you,
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[…] An interracial relationship (IRR) is a dating or married relationship between people from different races. This post is about the ones in America. It is an overview post – click on links to go deep… […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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yay i got a date ttys dont be hatin!
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🙂
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@V8Driver
It is true. White women sexually objectify Black men and only date them because of the big **** myth. In other words, MOST White American women just want to sexually experiment with Black men. And Black men don’t ever realize it until it is too late.
And White men also sexually objectify Black women and would only sleep with a Black woman they find attractive but they will never seriously date or wife a Black woman. I have even experienced something like this happen to me too but I never slept with him. I will never date a White man or marry one for that reason. Never.
I don’t want to offend you but I just want to tell you my views since you probably find my views radical and extreme.
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“A lot of ww assume bm to be like wm [. . . .]”
__ __ __
To a certain degree they do seem to expect BM to be like WM. A few years back, I was a lurker on a WW for BM message (I’ve also lurked on BWE blogs before BTW). Fascinating stuff, really!
On the rare occasion there were a few self-identified BW members who posted; I myself never did. This seemingly left the WW and BM members feeling, on some level, that they had the privacy to spill their guts; and many did just that. It was sort of embarrassing really … what with the bitterness as well as the amount of groveling and sniveling that went on from the BM members. After a while I simply stopped checking in.
Some of those expectations the WW had of BM were very basic (I won’t go into detail), and many seemed almost shocked that these expectations weren’t being met. Many made a point of addressing these expectations in ads they made in search of BM romantic partners.
.
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@adeen
eh well i dont care if they try to find out the only way there is to…
no, we’re good, no worries.
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I think Sotomayor has made quite a bit of positive waves for men in general. Not really fair to accuse him of self-hate. He has a pretty big ego. Justified imo.
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Sondis,
I’m not changing the subject. I’m exposing your hypocrisy. I’m not bringing up black men as an excuse for white men’s behavior. I’m bringing it up because you say black women shouldn’t date white men because of that behavior. If we go by that then black women shouldn’t date men at all. Heck, no woman should ever date a man.
I’m not derailing. I’m just pointing out how hypocritical and ridiculous your advice is.
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@peanut
Your comment just rub me the wrong way.
I hate when black women talk about how loyal they are to black men. That is misleading at best, and straight up FALSE at worst.
It makes it seem like you are doing BLACK MEN a favor. Which would also mean that there are other races of men you REALLY want to be with & can date, but you deliberately restrict yourself to black men.
“Loyal” Black Women fall in two categories:
1. Black Women who find black men the MOST attractive above other races.
Maybe because you grew up around black men aka sexual selection.
Either way, you are with a black man because you derive pleasure from being with him.
2. Black women who don’t have the sexual value & patriarchal relationship intangibles to date other races of men.
American Black Women are very unique, and I will leave it at that. They operate under different rules when it comes to gender roles, etc. A majority, not all.
So, patriarchal men from other communities when they want to date interracially, black women are chosen last, NOT because of lack of sexual attraction. But they do not get along culturally.
Basically, all you are left with IS black men.
Because we are the group of men who will most likely deal with your BS.
————————-
I am not trying to deflect from WHITE SUPREMACY & it detrimental effects on black relationships.
I am just saying that be SELFISH in your dating, stop acting like you are doing black men a favor by desiring us.
It is insulting to any black man who has had to deal with black women on a real world level.
———————–
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Legion was right–this is about to go on and on and on…
Abagond, did you really have to write another divisive post?
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Adonis:
“I am just saying that be SELFISH in your dating, stop acting like you are doing black men a favor by desiring us.
It is insulting to any black man who has had to deal with black women on a real world level.”
I agree with this statement, 110%
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I really was deciding not to comment, but i saw this:
Adonis, the American Black community is just as patriarchal as the Asian (East and Southeast heritages), non- white Hispanic and white American communities. There is no society in the Western world that has a true matriarchal community…
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@pheobeprunelleo…Amen, and amen again, Sister.
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Any post involving interracial anything brings out the crazies. Why Abagond?
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I don’t now why I have prefer someone over another person just because of skin color. I love women, I love them deeply, what else matters. Let some other lunatic say he only dates someone from this category not this one. If you’ve got a sharp mind, and I am attracted to you then yes before I got married I would have tried no matter what ethnic group you were. Do I have a problem with black women no most are great and set the imagination off, do I like every black woman no. I love highly educated black women who make me think and keep me on my toes. Yet, I love this in any woman I dated. Tons of black women have done it for it and I have to say I look back and I am not sorry for dating who I wanted to. I date to enrich my life not some statistic and I am selfish about my dating because I aim to please me and the woman I am with. I got married because I felt happy and it has been good. There are of course down periods but hey I am a moody guy.
I am selfish in love, I do not love out of some strange commitment to my ethnicity. I love because the chemistry in my brain sets off my heart and I feel passion. Plenty of black women I have met now makes my mind say hey you are married Bub.
I see a beautiful black woman I feel hungry because of sight when she expresses a sharp mind it is addictive, but make no mistake I love quick minds in all the wrappings. The worst thing I could imagine is being stuck with a dull person.
Women are beautiful but I have to put that part of me behind the door, I am already committed. Why should I leave my wife just to have someone of the same ethnic group? Cause when the siit hits the fan, I had better have chosen the right woman for me.
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Adonis,
“So, patriarchal men from other communities when they want to date interracially, black women are chosen last, NOT because of lack of sexual attraction. But they do not get along culturally.
Basically, all you are left with IS black men.
Because we are the group of men who will most likely deal with your BS.”
What you perceive as freedom from gender roles is actually the burden of having to take on both roles because of the absence( physically or mentally for whatever reason ) of black men.
What BS are you talking about? Are you saying black women’s freedom from gender roles is bs? Are you saying black men are less sexist than white men?
If that is what you are saying then I’d say that to deal with something you have to be present. And the manner in which black men deal with what you call freedom from gender roles renders them absent.
Im not saying they are the root cause of the phenomenon but at some point the effect becomes the cause which creates the cycle.
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I may be wrong, but I’m sensing a general anti- masculinity tone here (“Men are dogs”).
I don’t believe dating someone solely for sexual reasons is “using” a woman or taking advantage of her. She enjoys it, you enjoy it, and as long as you are honest about your intentions ( frankly the subject of marriage shouldn’t come up before at least six months, if not a year) I don’t see what then problem is, regardless of race. We are talking about consenting adults here.
Also, I don’t see how it’s wrong to date multiple people at once before you have committed yourself to one person.
I just broke up with the girl who once posted on here. It was mutual. We are still friends and neither one of us wronged the other. It was fun while it lasted and I don’t regret a bit of it, even if I did maybe end up a little more dissapointed than she did. She was straight up model gorgeous. A true 10.
Also with “exoticism,” again I don’t see the problem with liking someone because of unique beauty. Many women have fallen for my brother, who has one blue eye and one brown/ hazel eye, and when I lived on a reservation women of all races ate it up.
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I use to sneer at the popularity of these type of posts ,however on reflection of my own life and current experiences ,I see how continous and important a subject this is.
As long as we sapiens are limited by hereditary evolutionary processes to vary phenotypically and have those variances cluster into groups with corresponding cultural boundaries as well this issue will remain of importance,add the factor of dominant vs subordinate expression of phenotyic genetic traits and conflict is assured.
Everyday I must continually reject the unrighteaous advances of the dominant by aggression group and pine for the mere sight much less affection of mine own.
The ugliness and crime keep me solitary but not celibate as I work my way through knowledge of this universe and my place in it.
I’ve not read any of the numerous comments yet,but I will……hey trojanpam this looks like a subject you my have interest….
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Interracial relationships are pretty intriguing to me. Especially the BW/WM, because I don’t see that combo as much as I see BM/WW where I live. I say at the end of the day, you have to do you.
I give an extra cheese grin when I see BW/WM especially to the lady. As my hubby makes a snide remark. And I say stop hating BM have been hip to the interracial scene for too long, bout time the sistah get hip to the game 😀
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i am grateful for this thread bc it’s about ‘normal’ people and relationships and it enables me to separate the thuggish hood thing from something a little more real
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@Asplund
“I think Sotomayor has made quite a bit of positive waves for men in general. Not really fair to accuse him of self-hate. He has a pretty big ego. Justified imo.”
that is a really ignorant statement. as i have told the man himself he actually did do something ie start an internal black dialog, getting started using weaves some type of way, but you wrong he is not about empowering the black community at all, it is divisive what he says and there is no consistent statment or line of reasoning in his musings whatsoever. all he is doing is putting down black women and encouraging sad to say, mostly black men to harass and verbally abuse black women ostesibly for their choice of hair style. he has moved on to black men ie ‘simps’ and what not, but also from a position of some type of crackhead being dependent on the black woman whom he clearly reviles, and then he turns around and says black women are the most beautiful thing, and he has a white gf. the dude is mentally gone out to lunch.
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Since most black women on this blog, refuse to hear anything that black men say, regarding interracial relationships, listen to a black woman, speak on the subject.
(http://youtu.be/4rtNB_ORuw0)
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@Peanut:
We live in a white supremacist society. How can black men support black women out loud when a)They are being attacked and threatened in terms of jobs, violence and others. b)They are being told subtly and directly that white society is not comfortable with black men even finding black women attractive let alone date and marry us let alone show any support. hahaha
open your eyes to what’s going on!
Black men with black mothers, black sisters and so on not understanding how black women fare in this society. they know, but they can’t do anything about it or show support because it will be seen as “scary” to white women and men.
I work around this and see it every day at work. Not only are non-blacks not supposed to talk to each other but also the one they hate the most is for blacks of the opposite sex to talk to each other.
Black men know full well and most black men are with black women – dark skin, brown skinned, light skinned, With women with natural hair, permed hair, afros and so on. Skinny, tall and on and on.
Stop believing the hype.
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@Peanut and others
Black men do uplift black women. Have you ever watched any black music video produced by BLACK MEN, most of the women are black and they are praising black women’s bodies, beauty, and the like. Black men are told that it’s threatening to white people to even find black women attractive in front of them.
It’s because of White men why Black men are not able to show full protection to us the way non-white hispanic men do to hispanic women, indian men to indian women and the like. Heck I had latino men tell me that when they played personals online where they preferred a black woman that the ones emailing them hate messages telling them NOT to like black women were WHITE MEN!
Open your eyes.
————
Re:
women and that would upset white supremacy…nevertheless, I think some Black men are jealous of the fact that some Black women choose to value the gaze of white men…but most Black men don’t realize that they have the power to uplift Black beauty, but some Black men are so ashamed to do that…they degrade black beauty instead….that is why some Black women have lower self esteem when it comes to beauty because not enough Black men uplift true Black beauty
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lol@bw/white male unions being more ‘successful’ that’s a load of bull. You are subtly slamming black men when you say that. Look at all the black female celebrities who have had white men cheat on them, had to raise their half-white kids alone and the like. Men are men, believe me.
I can describe my day today in a heavily white mall. In the mall I noticed a weird vibe from many of the white males. Sort of like they want to attack, or don’t know how to behave around you. It’s weird and scary. In addition, alot of them send of this vibe of “poor lonely black women no one wants, and if she’s not lonely or unwanted, I will put in energy to make her feel she’s unwanted or treated that way by others”.
White male/black female couples high success rate?
puhlease!
Go into a part of the mall where it was more diverse with blacks, hispanics and Indians and see tons of black couples, black women with latino and one with an Asian.
Whites in general don’t like black and for whatever reason have an obsessive hate where they can’t let us just live our lives. I have met more open-minded white women who could be open to black men than white men who could be open to black women.
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“Alicia:
We live in a white supremacist society. How can black men support black women out loud when a)They are being attacked and threatened in terms of jobs, violence”
This is pure, truth! preach, sista…preach! ^_^
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“Alicia
lol@bw/white male unions being more ‘successful’ that’s a load of bull. You are subtly slamming black men when you say that. Look at all the black female celebrities who have had white men cheat on them, had to raise their half-white kids alone and the like. Men are men, believe me.”
I see you…come on sista, don’t ease up now! ^_^
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V8
Unity among black, white, Asian people, whatever is not really a concern of mine. Any thinker who will stand up to simps in 2013 is going to get at least some praise from me in 2013.
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What bugs me about topics like these is how it always boils down to including white people, this is so fuqqing tired. I’m sorry but when I think interracial relationship I see myself cuddling up with Takeshi Kaneshiro not Brad Pitt lol.
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But you are throwing out assumptions,because of what you believe,you are generalizing that all white people are racist, but does that mean that when white people make generalizations about black people having a lower IQ,violent,living like animals etc..this is true.
You are presuming that my man is racist by default,he went out with few white women when younger but has always dated black women,he has been persuaded by friends / certain family members not to date bw,we were out- he got beat on by a black man who thought he should not be dating me-he STILL went against opposition because he desires to be with a black women.
Me on the other hand desires to be with any man that treats me with love,respect and a healthy,committed union…if that man was black it would be great but life works in other ways…and I wont fight fate.
Of course a white person can be with a black person STILL be a racist (I have seen one experience where a white mother out in the park,partially drunk with others,call her biracial child the N word,to the great amusement of her friends,there was an instance where my friend dated a wm who didn’t like any black men,when they had an argument he called her all sort of racist names)..
What you’re failing to see is that some humans – there is always a quota that do not fit a certain criteria and do not judge on color-for instance,whether it be a minority
I went out early to the shops to get milk,looking a hot mess lol and this white women gave me a dirty look,most with your mindset would have assumed she was racist-but I said-had I dressed smarter that look may never have occurred,I also rationalised it could have been a bw that felt this way,showing that it had nothing to do with my color but dress sense…
You exercise personal judgement with slight paranoia -its the classic case of the patient going to the doctor with a runny nose ,the doctor immediately presumes he has a cold but it could be a million other things..you’re only looking at the smaller picture I think.
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Well to you it makes not a lot of sense but many white women go into unions with bm and while they think hes cool,he has swagger,great in bed,etc he lacks what they already expect in a relationship with what they get with white men.
when the realization of the expectations does not meet their requirements-their illusions are shattered,its not uncommon for white women to date bm and end up going back with wm -however as most wm who date exclusively ww,don’t like to date ww with biracial children you find that these ww with biracial kids tend to stay with bm or just move on to the next,usually because their dating options with other race men are limited.
A white man would rather date a bw ,rather than date a white women with biracial kids,because if hes made a choice to be with a bw hes OK with that-however he would not be really OK with dating a white women with kids to a black man-maybe he feels second choice or maybe he is not applying that acceptance that the white women chose a black man as first place and bringing up a black mans kids is too much to bare(based on his own prejudiced feelings towards bm)
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Two comment above to @sondis
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@ Adeen
Despite the fact that many believe @tommysottomayor and others that certain bw have attitudes and leave them behind when dating wm.
If I’m honest-I believe that despite gender,many blacks do indeed act differently around white people,now I’m not saying this belief has full roots but there is some truth in it
I believe that with black women,white men tend also to be the less dominant in the relationship,very accommodating etc,bw indeed do act a way around wm that tends to be different than with bm
I haven’t seen many bw act ghetto around wm and have a relationship there,but then I have also seen bm do exactly the same thing with other race women.
There are many black people here that are defiant in their need to continue the flow of black love and stand united and while many bm date bw by majority,bw are by far,more reluctant to date out..however I’m finding today bm(some) do not give bw that credibility back..
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@thealchemist
Thanks for the article however its something I have heard of before,so it doesn’t surprise me -I’m aware that racists can date out/marry and have children but I would still live to believe that not all whites are racist
While I believe racism is learnt behaviour there is evidence to show thats it by default-try watch the different series if you can:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAv8JA_9uKI)
My great aunts friend,has a son who was married with 2 kids to a white women,he was in the military and as a result she got a house with a good wage,unfortunately he lost one of his legs in battle came home to his mum because they couldn’t get on-all of a sudden he was of no use to this women-she even had the balls to say she doesn’t want to grow old with a black man.
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@ peanut
thanks,nice to get acquainted.
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Yes, Peanut, it is about sex, and you can cut the sexual tension on here with a knife….
And while this blog can have in depth disscusions about racial issues, European history , western liturature, Islam , the commenters as a whole about sex are uptight and inexperianced , with some pleasant exceptions…this is not an advanced diologue on sex, just check some of the threads about porn or booty dancing…homophobia rules , and we had some enlightened gay commenters like Ace, who doesnt comment anymore,, with attitudes towards gays on here, I can guess why
So, this not being a sexualy advanced commenter public, is it any wonder that interracial sex goes through the roof? I mean you cant lie about this,it is blatently obvious , interracial sex gets obssecive commentary ….
“white gaze”? Peanut, the white gaze is a very small amount of people who own the media and make those desicians behind closed doors and they bring their petty bagage behind closed doors and they bring their petty baggage to those desicians…they are the ones who make the desicians about who goes on the screen , big or little
You know, Im in touch on a daily basis with the work of very high leval Afro diasporic artists, either working directly with them or practicing with their work and studying and analysing it…it brings the deepest of fullfilling , enlightening and soul filling feelings….I dont get any of it from the media, I have to seek it out and dig for buried treasure…and if you look, you will be rewarded a hundred times over
The black women I have worked with and study, are of the highest order of beauty and grace and strength and intelligence , and just the act of them trying to work expressing their culture, they are subjected to huge obstacles of racism and dissmissing, burying and destroying their cultures…sometimes by black political agendas…yes, I worked with some great black female tap dancers….
you cant let media define you , cyber space comments are not real life either, but people are making judgements on races by cyber space comments
Its funny with so many self appointed experts on black people and racism, how we cant go back and analyse exactly where and why this political agenda came out….why it is unique to the black american diologue…why doesnt it happen in Brazil with so much of a similar dynamic? This proves it is not a universal dynamic that comes up in the same circumstances, which means it is a superficial political agenda about interracial sex the same uptightness as whites who are uptight about interracial sex
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@peanut
Sister, you are being INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST or just being plain ol’ myopic, and again, you are not a black male or you have not had discourse with different types of black men to confirm your perspective. Let us get into your post.
Link (1) (1) http://www.divorce360.com/divorce-articles/news/trends/african-americans-and-marriage.aspx?artid=1176
You are overlooking the black women who divorce black men at a high clip. Because women initiate divorces most of the time.
Which frankly it comes down to MONEY for the most part, that is something that black men need to improve on collectively.
This sounds like simple shared experiences & commonalities, which will bring most couples together, but that doesn’t mean black women & black men HAVE to get together.
And my main point for responding to you Peanut, is that BLACK WOMEN will ride or die for CERTAIN TYPES of BLACK MEN & CERTAIN TYPES of WHITE MEN. Both these type of men make up a small percentage of the total population. And if you don’t fall under that type, black women ain’t checking for you until they get OLD & WASHED UP.
So to say that, if I am a black man, there are loyal black women out there to receive me is VERY misleading. You are ignoring what the average black man has to face when dealing with black women.
Again, you make it seem like as if black women are doing black men a favor, which they are not, because black women check for attractive black men who bring value to their lives, not just any black male.
and black men are taking black women for granted, which they are not. Because, black men have to bring value to the table these days to be able to date a black woman, otherwise he gets ignored.
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What does your name mean
And TECHNICALLY you are right.
Take out racism & same group preference in non-black men.
Also, let us assume black women will change up for other races (ie WHITE MEN) of men, so the disrespect & attitude that black women give to black men is null & void.
Other races of men are not trying to date SINGLE MOTHERS.
Other races of men are not trying to get with FAT WOMEN.
And to be fair, a fit black woman is overweight by European standards, but we their is a difference between FIT & FAT. A simple OBJECTIVE eye test will tell the difference.
It also helps to be pretty & young.
————–
In conclusion, black women cannot step to other races of men, the way they step to black men, because they (non-BM) are not having it.
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@SoleSearch
When I say BS, I speak of the unnecessary attitude & disrespectful dispositions black women come equipped with when dealing with black men.
And other races of men have higher expectations of women & yes they want a PATRIARCHAL relationship, if you are keeping score.
Black women can behave more freely & rebelliously with certain black men because the black men they choose don’t have the finances or freedom to kick dysfunctional black women to the curve.
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@Adonis
>Also, let us assume black women will change up for other races (ie WHITE MEN) >of men, so the disrespect & attitude that black women give to black men is null & >void.
there is a reason that woman is acting like that (sometimes) let her have her say, you know that is the lion’s share of respect
>Other races of men are not trying to date SINGLE MOTHERS.
who was it muhammed ali’s daughter said ‘someone thought she was cute to be havin all those kids’
>Other races of men are not trying to get with FAT WOMEN.
that is an odd and out of place statement
>And to be fair, a fit black woman is overweight by European standards, but we their >is a difference between FIT & FAT. A simple OBJECTIVE eye test will tell the >difference.
now you trippin
>In conclusion, black women cannot step to other races of men, the way they step to >black men, because they (non-BM) are not having it.
the black girls i dated, i said this before, there is an initial period, oh you white, are you a cop, is there something going on here, you know, the adjustment, and then no dude, they did not treat me different
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V8driver:
i am grateful for this thread bc it’s about ‘normal’ people and relationships and it enables me to separate the thuggish hood thing from something a little more real
I think personally an abnormal amount of time is spent opposing what other people chose to do in their lives. If someone of one race does not physically/spritually/culturally or whatever, want to date someone of ther same/different race, dont date them. Simple as, simple is.
The kind of examples on here appear to be the extremes. Interacial relationships can and do work, when they dont, they were not meant to be either because one or the other of the individuals went in with their eyes closed and dont have the stamina to withstand it. Either that or, they are the type of people that would struggle in any relationship. Notice I say ‘withstand it’ because, in a relationship such as this, though racial factors may not be at the forefront, you can guarantee that it will be for others around them – this is where the pressure comes from.
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Damned! Damned, Damned!
That is the absolute truth!!! All of my girlfriends who are engaged to non Black men are with East Asian and non-white Hispanic men–you know other folks of color…
And i’m biased (lol) but after BM/BW couples they make by the most handsomest!
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@Omnipresent what i am saying is i don’t think a lot of people here have the street experiences i have tryin to be with people of massive substance abuse problems and that make it harder to have a relationship, much less a real life, much less understand the differences of culture etc in an irr, so … like the drama in the hood? really didn’t come from me bein white in most if not 99.99% of the cases
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@peanut ‘sticking by her man’ and ‘doing right by her man’ two different things course if bull out runnin the streets, fair is fair
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Adonis, it seems that your analysis is dependent upon stereotypes of black women and non-black women. The stereotype being that black women have attitudes and non-black women don’t.
Black men might be less likely to stereotype black women in such a fashion and thus are more open to dating black women. They aren’t just “dealing with” black women’s unreasonable attitudes. They know that line of thought is bs. But as you have demonstrated there are plenty of black men who subscribe to that kind of white washed thinking.
Black men are just as sexist as white guys are. They aren’t more open to dealing with women’s “attitudes”.
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Apsulund,
“I don’t believe dating someone solely for sexual reasons is “using” a woman or taking advantage of her. She enjoys it, you enjoy it, and as long as you are honest about your intentions ( frankly the subject of marriage shouldn’t come up before at least six months, if not a year) I don’t see what then problem is, regardless of race. We are talking about consenting adults here.”
Right, but we are talking having sex with people that don’t respect you as a human being. That’s not cool.
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@Gen and phoebeprunelleo
That is what bugs me about these type topics. It makes it seem like white men are the only other choice. LOL
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^^ hmm…said so many times 😀
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Adonis seems to prescribe to this magical thinking that a lot of Black men prescribe to. Black women are flawed and are not fit to be with any man of any race. Black women have to be “put up” with, but every other type of woman is “normal” and relationship material.
This leaves everyone else a viable member of the dating pool with BW left on the outside fit only to be baby momma’s and one night stands for Black men and men of other races when they get in a bind and some other more deserving “normal woman” is unavailable.
What they fail to leave out is that BM generally grow up in the same households and environments as BW, but somehow BM magically leave those common environments unscathed and surprisingly normal and well adjusted and fit to date and marry “normal” women of of other races. They can choose to “put up” with BW if they want to, but why bother?
The elephant in the room is that the divorce rate between BM and “normal” women of other races is probably so high because BM are not as “unscathed” and “well adjusted” as they like to advertise. Maybe that same difficult attitude that they claim ONLY BW possess is also an issue that they themselves have to deal with.
As for Peanut’s observation that BM have the best relationships with BW there is a reason for that. The reason BM and BW’s relationships last so long is because we both have the same relationship “style”. It’s summed up quite well by a YouTuber named UHeardMe1stTime in a video called Push/Push back. (Sorry I don’t know how to embed videos. If someone could embed it I’d appreciate it).
I said all of that to say this : If Black women are screwed up and undateable/un marriageable, then so are Black men.
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Here’s the link to that video. Hope it works.
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I wonder if ABAGOND can do a topic on the racist white OBSESSION with Blacks and why racists can’t let us live our lives? I mean the vibe I got yesterday at the mall from whites was so weird. It’s not every single one but a good enough percentage whom always appear to have “hurting a black” on their mind. Most blacks and hispanics and asians are walking around minding their own business, living their lives while the racist white men and women are always thinking of slighting a black person. it’s weird and creepy. if you don’t like someone, why always choose to have them on your brain and be so obsessed?
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@jadapoo1 very interesting
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“Adonis
“Again, you make it seem like as if black women are doing black men a favor, which they are not, because black women check for attractive black men who bring value to their lives, not just any black male.
and black men are taking black women for granted, which they are not. Because, black men have to bring value to the table these days to be able to date a black woman, otherwise he gets ignored.”
Adonis, you’re a breath of fresh air, until you came along, i was the ONLY black man to challenge the black women’s bashing of black men on this blog.
Everything you said in response to peanuts comments were right on the money as she always comes off like she and other black women are doing black men a favor by “supposedly” sticking with the black man, which is rubbish far as i am concerned, being i have seen just a taste of the hundreds of thousands of black women on just ONE, interracial site and they are all OPEN to being in a relationship with a white man or just plain prefer a white man over a black man.
Let me put it this way, if the MAJORITY of white men, took black women serious and not only sexual play things, the majority of black women would love to marry a white man, being that black women are under the spell of white supremacy, just as black men are in America.
The majority of black women in America, want a child with a white man, so their children can have light eyes, nice straight hair and European features, so they can have better chance at life, being they are closer to white as they are going to get, being half black.
The “REAL” reason, the MAJORITY of black women don’t date/marry white men is because, the MAJORITY of white men, don’t want black women in any serious capacity, other than sex.
So peanut is trying to project her interpretation of black women, sticking with black men for the sole purpose of community but ignoring the fact, that the MAJORITY of white men, don’t want anything to do with, marrying or being in a long term, meaningful relationship with black women.
Its disingenuous to keep on about how black women are more loyal than black men, perhaps it was more true ( but not totally true or no more than black men have been, loyal to black women ) back in the 60’s and 70’s but not in 2013!!!
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Ah, well, Sharina, you have it backwards, its not about sex with white people, the overriding, criticism, mandate, pseudo psychological psych analysis is really what is wrong with people of color for having sex with a white person, and how they dont recognise their oppresor, and have colorisation issues and how they have been manipulated
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(Sharina, I see you said its as though white people are the only choice, but, again, the criticism seems to be more at people of color for choosing to be with white people , I sure have no advice for POC that they should be with white people)
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@sondis idk i’m not tryin to stir stuff up with you but you are on some straight middle-class ish and you don’t seem like you are from the hood at all which raises in and of itself raises a whole plethora of societal issues that ‘normal’ people can bypass with ease by ignoring them, i have been harpin on the underclass and lower class to be recognized here for a long time, and it is slow but sure progress for me on that front.
ima let it go at that except to say we as americans are constantly bombarded by images of how it is acceptable to maim shoot stab and otherwise kill people as well as have unprotected sex in all forms from the tv. so to say this or that category of sentient carbon based life forms in the political boundaries of what is known as the ‘usa’ on planet sol 3 is adapting to that better or worse, seems disingenous,
and the cable tv does seem to be the common denominator between the mansion and the ghetto comcast uber alles
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I have mixed feelings about IRRs. On the one hand, you fall in love with who you fall in love with; and mature, respectful, and enduring love between two like-minded adults is hard enough to find and nurture as it is, so if you find it, then make it work no matter what. I know plenty of people involved in long term IRR (most of whom are raising bi-racial children), and they’re putting in the work to keep their relationships strong. They encounter all the BS that often plagues IR families, yet they endure. That’s commendable.
On the other hand, I’ve also seen a lot of what Sondis talks about — particularly how white mates disappear when things get serious, or at the first signs of adversity. I couldn’t say whether that’s a race thing or just cowardice in general, which crosses all racial boundaries. But it does make you wonder.
What I have noticed, and this is just borne of MY observations and personal experience, is that black women involved with white men still maintain their ties to blackness, whereas black men involved with white women seem to distance themselves from it. Again, just my own perceptions. For example, the Black women I’ve known with mixed race children, raise them to understand and appreciate both parental lineages — even if the children themselves can pass for white. The women maintain ties to their family and friends, and also make an effort to involve their children in culture-specific activities. Their world view might be expanded, but it’s still centered around their blackness, and they can slip in and out of either world with ease.
The white woman/black man dynamic seems completely opposite. Once black men get involved with white women, their world becomes the world of the white woman. She rarely partakes of his world, but expects him to be a full participant in hers. Social gatherings and activities revolve around her friends and family, but not his. If they have children, they’re raised “white” or, even worse, “color blind,” without any kind of nod to their blackness. It’s as if white women expect black men to bow down to their pillar of whiteness, without acknowledging any aspect of his blackness or even accepting it at all. Again, just my personal observations, but I’d like to hear other perspectives and experiences.
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I see so many conflicting depictions:
white people hate black people and dont want to have sex with them and mixed race kids
white people hate black people , but are pushing black males on white females, to especialy get at the black woman , and want them to have mixed race kids to dilute the black race
white women secretly love black d–k , and white men want their white women riding that black d–k
white men secretly all want black women for sex…especialy look out after their divorce to a white woman…
white men hate black women , wont marry them and dont want to have sex with them
there is a secret white plot to lure black men away from black women ,
Gees, if anything , it should indicate that , when dealing with interracial sex with a white person, you better judge each case individualy…just to figure out which complex angle of interracial sex psych they will be coming from….
If statistics are important to a person about interracial relationships….they better stay away from interracial relationships and sex with white people
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@ grin and bear it
I agree.
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@ B. R.
The issues is people are so blinded that they believe white is the only choice. Sorry but with interracial relationships whites are not the only choice. It is annoying watching the hang ups on white/black relationships only. I don’t see whites as the only choice. There is a whole buffet of choices.
Bottom line is people should be with whoever rings their bell. Some people are concerned with the psychological aspects of it and some just are not.
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“Let me put it this way, if the MAJORITY of white men, took black women serious and not only sexual play things, the majority of black women would love to marry a white man, being that black women are under the spell of white supremacy, just as black men are in America”
I agree a little bit as I do see some self hating black men and women that couldn’t pull a white person so they bash black features uncle ruckus and sheryl underwood come to mind. I’m more into men with color in their skin so white men don’t do it for me, i’m annoyed its always whites at the center when talking about interracial, but at the same time I see that when ppl do date out it is with a white person. But I have to wonder if whites weren’t the default and on magazines and tv everywhere if they still would find whites as the most attractive or have they been conditioned to. But I think ppl are a bunch of sheep that follow every trend whether its right or not.
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“grin and bear it
What I have noticed, and this is just borne of MY observations and personal experience, is that black women involved with white men still maintain their ties to blackness, whereas black men involved with white women seem to distance themselves from it. Again, just my own perceptions. For example, the Black women I’ve known with mixed race children, raise them to understand and appreciate both parental lineages — even if the children themselves can pass for white. The women maintain ties to their family and friends, and also make an effort to involve their children in culture-specific activities. Their world view might be expanded, but it’s still centered around their blackness, and they can slip in and out of either world with ease.
The white woman/black man dynamic seems completely opposite. Once black men get involved with white women, their world becomes the world of the white woman. She rarely partakes of his world, but expects him to be a full participant in hers. Social gatherings and activities revolve around her friends and family, but not his. If they have children, they’re raised “white” or, even worse, “color blind,” without any kind of nod to their blackness. It’s as if white women expect black men to bow down to their pillar of whiteness, without acknowledging any aspect of his blackness or even accepting it at all. Again, just my personal observations, but I’d like to hear other perspectives and experiences.”
I have to disagree with your, personal observation.
Women, typically take on their male counterparts ideology. You see this, when white women, only date black men.
white women, exhibit black characteristics and linguistics, when dating black men and the same is true, when black women, only date white men, they seems to take on white men’s ideology and characteristics.
You even see it, when an Asian woman, only dates black men, white men and so on.
I won’t go into this any further, being i kinda feel, its neither here or there in terms of the topic. ^_^
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Because it is the females who NURTURE children. Everything you know, can do and perform was genetically passed on to you through mitochondrial DNA…your father carries it but DOES not pass it on to his children…coupled with the fact that even if your dad lived in the same house with you and had a strong bond with your mother, he still didn’t spend as half as much time with you than your mom did.
GrinandBearIt, i think Mrs. Deb’s opinion on THIS would be most invaluable–that is if she’s willing to share, :).
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@sondis “Women, typically take on their male counterparts ideology. You see this, when white women, only date black men.
white women, exhibit black characteristics and linguistics, when dating black men and the same is true, when black women, only date white men, they seems to take on white men’s ideology and characteristics.”
yay. code switching and cultural competence. score one with the guts to see it through
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*score one for the ones with the guts to see it through
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@Alicia, sondis, Peanut…We live in a white supremacist society.
No news flash there, Sis.
How can black men support black women out loud when a)They are being attacked and threatened in terms of jobs, violence and others. b)They are being told subtly and directly that white society is not comfortable with black men even finding black women attractive let alone date and marry us let alone show any support…
Man, I’m an old head and I’m sure glad of that! Because despite how young folk like to talk about how bad the “good old days” were today, I know I’ve never generally heard, nor participated in, such disempowering and emasculating an opinion about my brothers. “Being attacked and threatened in terms of jobs, violence and others” notwithstanding, Black men, though rightfully afraid (given how retribution was meted out with the quickness), supported Black women — out loud. I don’t know what kind of Black men you know, Sister but I know plenty following in their footsteps TODAY! And as far as your b) — Black men, women and children have been told THAT “subtly and directly” since I was born, and even before that!
Black men with black mothers, black sisters and so on not understanding how black women fare in this society. they know, but they can’t do anything about it or show support because it will be seen as “scary” to white women and men.
Damn. Yet another disempowering and emasculating statement — CAN’T?? You really don’t think much of the integrity and will of most Black men do you? Because it will be seen as “scary” to white women and men?? Black men have been living with that stereotype for our entire existence in this place, Sister! And it’s never stopped any I know from doing or showing support for Black women — whether they were married to them or not.
And sondis? You’re supporting this madness talkin’ about “I see you…come on sista, don’t ease up now!” and “Preach!”??? You mean to tell me, if somebody disrespected your Mama, your sister, your woman — IN FRONT OF YOU — you “CAN’T do anything about it??? If that’s true Brother, this blog is not here you need to be pnding your time. {smdh}
“I think some Black men are jealous of the fact that some Black women choose to value the gaze of white men
Pretty loaded statement, but I agree with the first part. I’ve run into some — even here. While some Black men may well be jealous, it might just benefit the more critically thinking of them to know, that choosing or searching out the gaze of white men is rarely, if ever the motivation of Black women who want to be loved — LOVE IS!
…most Black men don’t realize that they have the power to uplift Black beauty, but some Black men are so ashamed to do that…they degrade black beauty instead
I’m not surprised, especially if they are constantly being told that they “CAN’T do anything” by disempowering, emasculating women!
….that is why some Black women have lower self esteem when it comes to beauty because not enough Black men uplift true Black beauty”
Peanut, Lil Sis, I’m talking to you here. Yes, there are men who do not uplift true Black beauty but, you cannot let that be the reason you don’t care and look out for yourself because that, my dear is on you! If YOU believe in your own beauty (inside and out), there’s no way others — of any hue can ignore it! I’ve been there, done that when I was your age, Peanut. I’m 57 now and I’m telling you — it’s a waste of time and energy to stay there. LOVE YOURSELF SOME YOU, SWEETIE!! Please trust me on that, mkay?
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this has been quite entertaining and informative but i need to step away from the keyboard, like, but on some real ish, that loud brash woman seemingly talking ish and saying mean stuff maybe, not maybe, odds are, she wants to be with someone who’s doing well and it is encouragement if not well phrased (re: “emasculating” females, trust and believe most of them want a in their terms, real man) consider it constructive criticism, and if not, then you just done got caught up in it too, trapped like.
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@ deb
amen, thank u. I read some of that and was thinking wtf. smh.
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@phoebeprunelleo, grin and bear it…“GrinandBearIt, i think Mrs. Deb’s opinion on THIS would be most invaluable–that is if she’s willing to share, :).”
Sister, I grew up in the “Call and Response” tradition of Southern Black churches! You called, and here I am! 🙂
I believe both of you hit the nail on its proverbial head for me.
“What I have noticed, and this is just borne of MY observations and personal experience, is that black women involved with white men still maintain their ties to blackness…For example, the Black women I’ve known with mixed race children, raise them to understand and appreciate both parental lineages — even if the children themselves can pass for white. The women maintain ties to their family and friends, and also make an effort to involve their children in culture-specific activities. Their world view might be expanded, but it’s still centered around their blackness, and they can slip in and out of either world with ease.”
This is EXACTLY how my family’s been living for 32 years! And I believe it is primarily because of, as you said, Sister: the fact that even if your dad lived in the same house with you and had a strong bond with your mother, he still didn’t spend as half as much time with you than your mom did.
While my boys cannot pass for white (I’m a dark, chocolate, Sister, no chance of that happening!), even if they could, I’d still have raised them as grin and bear it described above, because as I said somewhere upthread, I am “obsessively Black” — my culture is my memory, it’s the proud, strong ever-surviving shoulders upon which I’ve stood all of my life. There’s no way I could not pass that on to my sons — no matter who their father was.
“Slipping in and out of either world with ease” is something I’ve mastered not because I’m trying to be white (again, no chance of that happening!), but because I believe in me, and in us! We bring so damned much to this world’s table, Family. All we need do is learn it and believe it! Our ancestors have shown that there is nothing we can’t do! That’s why we’re still here — bruised but not broken. That’s one of the main reasons I link to and visit Abagond’s blog. I keep learning shit!
Yes, plenty of our attitudes have been shaped from the outside-in. How could they not be seeing as we’ve been: indoctrinated in the schools, inundated by all matter of media and generally kicked the hell around by folk wa-a-a-y more insecure than we have ever been or will be? But I promise you, somewhere along the way, we remember, as James Baldwin said, “from whence we came.” And trust me, there’s nothing like that realization! It’s thrilling and empowering to know that the foundation upon which you stand has always been there for you, all you needed to do was lean on it, and build — wherever, and with whomever.
phoebeprunelleo, thanks for asking! I’ll get off my soapbox now. 🙂
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Omnipresent writes:
“I think personally an abnormal amount of time is spent opposing what other people chose to do in their lives. If someone of one race does not physically/spritually/culturally or whatever, want to date someone of ther same/different race, dont date them. Simple as, simple is.”
__ __ __
I totally agree.
Typically when someone says that he “doesn’t believe in” X, Y or Z activity, he doesn’t mean that his personal beliefs should apply to him only but to all other individuals as well. It’s kind of despotic actually.
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@ deb
“Man, I’m an old head and I’m sure glad of that! Because despite how young folk like to talk about how bad the “good old days” were today, I know I’ve never generally heard, nor participated in, such disempowering and emasculating an opinion about my brothers. “Being attacked and threatened in terms of jobs, violence and others” notwithstanding, Black men, though rightfully afraid (given how retribution was meted out with the quickness), supported Black women — out loud. I don’t know what kind of Black men you know, Sister but I know plenty following in their footsteps TODAY! And as far as your b) — Black men, women and children have been told THAT “subtly and directly” since I was born, and even before that!”
on point, I will add that black men don’t have to shout from the rooftops that they love or support black women, in the age of internet u can just say it without being recognized or putting urself in danger of backlash. U can even go up to a black woman and say I like ur hair or something outside of work. u don’t have to say it in front of whites. also as an example black ppl supported Malcolm x but a lot would not want whites to know as their job and family would be in jeopardy. and booker t Washington even though publicly he was for education and being peaceful and not worrying about integrating
“Washington contributed secretly and substantially to legal challenges against segregation and disfranchisement of blacks” wiki.
so u don’t have to get on a soapbox or take out a billboard and praise black women but u can do small things.
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@mstoogood4yall…You’re very welcome, Sis. I just get a little full sometimes.
The quickest way to make sure somebody “CAN’T do anything” — is to keep telling them they can’t! What the hell do you expect to get in return if that’s all your giving??? I just can’t wrap my head around it.
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“Damn. Yet another disempowering and emasculating statement — CAN’T?? You really don’t think much of the integrity and will of most Black men do you? Because it will be seen as “scary” to white women and men?? Black men have been living with that stereotype for our entire existence in this place, Sister! And it’s never stopped any I know from doing or showing support for Black women — whether they were married to them or not”
applause. I can’t help but think if ppl co sign that we are powerless to do anything we will become powerless for real. so what if whites are scared they’ve been scared since we landed here. they were scared of black men during slavery, jim crow, and now. the only difference is they can’t outright lynch black men and send post cards of it. this is just as lame as the excuse ppl use for black ppl not getting married, like oh during slavery black ppl weren’t allowed to get married so now they don’t want to get married. Really now well black ppl during slavery still wanted to get married and did even when they had a huge possibility of being split up and sold off. my point is we can’t always look at what we are not allowed to do but look at what we can do. we may not be allowed to always support each other publicly but we can send each other support online or in private.
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@mstoogood4yall…“…I will add that black men don’t have to shout from the rooftops that they love or support black women…”
Exactly! My grandmother always told me, “It ain’t what dey say, Debi — it’s what dey do!”
In addition to all your other suggestions, I would just add that we try as hard as we can, to live as lovingly as we can among each other. The emotional, physical and intellectual assaults will always be with us. We are not now, nor have we ever been, living in a “post-racial society in these alleged United States (or the world really!), so stop looking for it. I’m not trying to “transcend” or be “post-” anything lain out by those who constructed the shit in the first place. I’m just trying to live, love and be well for me and mine, and that “mine” not only includes my immediate family, but my extended family, who’ve dealt with this oppressive construct all their lives, as well.
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@mstoogoo4yall..“I can’t help but think if ppl co sign that we are powerless to do anything we will become powerless for real. so what if whites are scared they’ve been scared since we landed here. they were scared of black men during slavery, jim crow, and now. the only difference is they can’t outright lynch black men and send post cards of it. this is just as lame as the excuse ppl use for black ppl not getting married, like oh during slavery black ppl weren’t allowed to get married so now they don’t want to get married. Really now well black ppl during slavery still wanted to get married and did even when they had a huge possibility of being split up and sold off. my point is we can’t always look at what we are not allowed to do but look at what we can do.”
*bows* and says, “Thank you!”
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Well, absolutly, Sharina, I find this concentration on what is wrong with being with a white person in an interracial relationship , extremley boring and tiresome…the steryeotyping, psycho analysing, politicily agendising…
It becomes some kind of back wash dinn , like tinnitus , echoing back on itself…
people should absolutly talk about the various interracial mixes that can go on in America outside of “white and POC”
the things that are said, that imply mandates , and critics with psychoanalysis of the charactor of people they dont even know, should be challenged, sometimes it leaves me no choice…or, yeah, Im the one who doesnt have any sence, and everyone else who knows better just lays out
You never know in an interracial relationship when your sensibilities might be challenged. Sharina, when I think of some neighborhoods in L. A> where Mexican gangs are crossing paths hard with black American gangs, and the divisions played out in California prisons based on that,, I think of you and your husband , and if you all might get caught in the middle of some hate…which I would really feel bad for you all if that happened…even a tense situation
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@Jadapoo1
Go play in traffic
Focus on my words, and attack my statements, not what you think is going on in my mind.
The s-xual marketplace is about social status, which comes down to VALUE. If black women are sexually VALUABLE (pretty, young, fit, childless, patriarchal, solid relationship intangibles)
Kneegrows will line up around the block to date & marry these kinds of black women.
But let us not pretend that these black women exist in spades.
Black women & women all over the world pretty much choose the kind of men they will entertain.
Sometimes being a baby momma or a sidepiece was more valuable than being a wife. And vice versa.
She slept with a dude before demanding he sign a marriage certificate, so that is on HER. This is not the time to make black women as if they have NO agency in the mating process.
Most black men date & marry black women. FACT. And I will most likely do the same.
And nobody overlooks dysfunctional black men. The media takes every opportunity to throw dysfunctional black men under the bus for sport.
Black women only have been getting heavy insults by the media since 2006, and with the Internet & men having a voice, it feels like you have been getting dissed forever.
Again, pound for pound, being that a black patriarchy & collective legacy building is not in place, why should I give a black woman preference over other women.
Is this affirmative action for dating?
I agree with that to a certain degree. But a lot of black men are impoverished, and if you want a serious relationship with any woman, a black men must have HIS MONEY in order. And we do not have the networking or white privilege to go on.
I doubt it. And if black men are attitudinal, it helps their value, not hurt it.
sexual selection and race – a study of Chinese American women found that those who grew up in white neighbourhoods tend to marry white while those who grew up in Chinese neighbourhoods tend to marry Chinese.
Very simple.
I’ll check it out.
I agree. But when we speak on black women, WHICH IS THIS CASE I WAS DISPUTING THE “LOYALTY” CLAIM.
We are in denial. That is my beef with black women in America.
Let us keep it 1 MILLION.
Good Day
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@sondis
I am here for black male bashing, if they negative claims were ACCURATE. They are usually not.
And ALL black men have to take the blame for her entitled disposition.
Good Day
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“Is this affirmative action for dating?”
Bahwhahwa rofl, if it was then white women would be benefitting the most.
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@ ms Deb
no thank you appreciate ur insight.
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@Peanut…Lil Sis, you there? Just read this, thought you might like to: http://naturallymoi.com/2013/10/news/viola-davis-embraces-her-beauty-after-going-natural/
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@ mstoogood4yall
“Bahwhahwa rofl, if it was then white women would be benefitting the most.”—ROFL
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@Omnipresent what i am saying is i don’t think a lot of people here have the street experiences i have tryin to be with people of massive substance abuse problems and that make it harder to have a relationship, much less a real life, much less understand the differences of culture etc in an irr, so … like the drama in the hood? really didn’t come from me bein white in most if not 99.99% of the cases
Fair enough – I really don’t know enough about substance abuse to discuss that. It seems that interacial relationships is a really contentious issue in America – IR dating all over i’m sure can and does raise eyebrows but for many on here it seems to be all consuming…even though they have decided that they do not wish to engage in this. Of course it is up to individuals what they do – its personal choice after all
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@B. R.
“Sharina, when I think of some neighborhoods in L. A> where Mexican gangs are crossing paths hard with black American gangs, and the divisions played out in California prisons based on that,, I think of you and your husband , and if you all might get caught in the middle of some hate…which I would really feel bad for you all if that happened…even a tense situation”—I truly hope not. I think of how blessed we are to have been in situations of acceptance. We could have easily been victims of hatred and misunderstandings. When we went to Florida a few weeks back I was really afraid of the situation. Luckily for us the vacation rental home we were in was in a predominately Hispanic and black neighborhood. We fit in so well it was weird. The neighbors treated us like we had just moved in or something. lol.
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^^^^ was for v8driver
I totally agree.
Typically when someone says that he “doesn’t believe in” X, Y or Z activity, he doesn’t mean that his personal beliefs should apply to him only but to all other individuals as well. It’s kind of despotic actually
I guess it can be if people let it be. . Some of the people on here seem to be battling with what has been forced on them by society in things like how they should look and how they should act etc. There is tremendous pressure there already. It doesn’t do to worry about something that wont be a part of their life anyway.
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^^^^^^ sorry, that was to payitforward
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Let me be clear on my stance.
I am all for IR dating, because the @ADEEN’s & the Imhotep conscious black people don’t practice what they preach.
And a system has to be in place that most black people participate.
Like non-black people do to uphold white supremacy & systematic white privilege.
Until then, no one can tell black men & women who they can & cannot date.
———
The problem I have with black women is that they like to push a TYLER PERRY narrative of all black women are good relationship partners & the black man is evil, abusive & just won’t act right.
Or he hate himself because he checks for non-BW.
————–
My stance is, whoever WOMAN gives me the most overall VALUE, and her positives great outweigh the negative, I will choose her.
I refuse to check for any women if they are bringing a toxic environment to my space.
And their are more toxic black women in the black community in all socio-economic levels that black people are in denial about. Black men need to avoid these black women & let the bottom feeder men of every race enjoy these women.
Black women who are VALUABLE will always have suitors. So they are good.
Good Day
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Is “BM putting up with BW” actually any different than ‘BW doing BM a favor by choosing to date them only’? It all sounds too much like charity work to me, and I personally won’t date someone out of I pity for him…but thats just me.
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“Adonis:
“The problem I have with black women is that they like to push a TYLER PERRY narrative of all black women are good relationship partners & the black man is evil, abusive & just won’t act right.”
Or he hate himself because he checks for non-BW.
+1 on this, brotha!
“I refuse to check for any women if they are bringing a toxic environment to my space.
And their are more toxic black women in the black community in all socio-economic levels that black people are in denial about. Black men need to avoid these black women & let the bottom feeder men of every race enjoy these women.”
+1 on this as well.
Adonis:
“I am here for black male bashing, if they negative claims were ACCURATE. They are usually not.”
I do this also but it doesn’t matter to the black women on this blog, if you point out anything, i mean, ANYTHING negative about black women, you will come under attack by the majority of black women as if their gender has clean hands in terms of black relationships, between black men.
I have pointed out black men’s flaws, numerous times on this blog and i never saw a peep from any black man on this blog, soon as i pointed out a black woman’s flaws, EVERY BLACK WOMEN CAME DOWN ON ME!
their favorite line…”what about black men? as if i can’t speak on black women’s flaws, without mentioning black men’s flaws in the same sentence!
Its like black women’s flaws, can’t stand on their own merit, black women on this blog, expect for a black man to ALWAYS mention his gender’s flaws, when mentioning, black women’s flaws.
The majority of black women on this blog, are horrible at taking any kind of criticism, from a black man.
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@Adonis
I will have to disagree with this idea that if a woman is “valuable” then men will be lined up around the block to marry her. Too man of these “valuable” women are still single. On top of that your idea of value is not universal.
Lastly it makes women sound like nothing more than a meat purchase. Valuable. …
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“Women, typically take on their male counterparts ideology. You see this, when white women, only date black men. white women, exhibit black characteristics and linguistics, when dating black men and the same is true, when black women, only date white men, they seems to take on white men’s ideology and characteristics.”
@Sondis. I agree with your assessment to a certain extent. But mostly when that happens, it seems to be as much about class distinctions than anything else. When a white woman hooks up with a working class or lower class black man, she does tend to mimick what she perceives to be his culture or surroundings — particularly if she dates black men exclusively. But when a middle class, upper/professional, or even aspirational black man does it — even if he’s not exclusively about white women — he still tends to drop kick his background to the curb. If a lower class black woman hooks up with a white man, regardless of his class or status, he’s coming to her hood. If a middle class, professional/upper or aspirational black woman hooks up with a white man, yes, she’d move to his hood and adopt his culture, but she’d also attend Links events and the Boule, she’d still support the NAACP and UNCF, and her children would still be members of Jack and Jill. That’s the difference that I perceive.
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@Kiwi, Legion, Peanut
Google “queen of spades tattoo”. WW deep into that lifestyle get these tattoos to attract BM in the lifestyle. These same BM probably sit around and call any BW that watches a stupid TV show, Scandal, a bed wench. Will the hypocrisy ever end?
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@Sharina
Young, fit, pretty, childless, solid relationship intangibles, sexually available.
That is what MOST men around the world want in a woman.
Women who have most of those qualities will never be overlooked by men.
The problem @Sharina, we have women out here who are suffering under delusions of grandeur, where they think they are Cremé De La Cremé & they are really MEH De La MEH.
And instead of taking a hard look in the mirror & improving themselves, men are to blame for their dating woes. Full stop.
Young, fit, pretty, childless, solid relationship intangibles, sexually available.
I know you are not into women like that, but you have to ask MEN what they like in women, not what you believe MEN should like in women. Being honest with yourself, will improve your lot in the long run.
Women evaluate men the same way. We are compared, and the very best available of us are chosen by women.
You are not a victim, but really a volunteer.
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@kiwi
Ha-ha, you know a thought just ran through my mind. Pre-60s there were not nearly enough Asian women for Asian men, let alone for white men. Back then Asian woman / white men pairings were extremely rare (save for some post WWI war brides in states where anti-miscegenation laws had already been repealed). Now that the situation has changed, what about if Asian men start lynching whites for having sex with “their” women? 😛
Only a random passing thought, nothing more.
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Wow Jefe! That tells me alot about you. People have sex with people sometimes for the wrong reasons.. but who are you to judge that. You can’t. If a white guy said what you just did about white women dating black men he probably would be banned. So because there were and are some white bigots that probably can’t get their own girlfriends, that lynched people that means you are going to do the same thing. Rediculous. You lost all credibility with me.
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@ Legion
Sadly it isn’t so niche, it’s not just a wife thing but there’s a daughter (ack!) bit to it as well.
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“Adonis:
High five brotha!
The problem @Sharina, we have women out here who are suffering under delusions of grandeur, where they think they are Cremé De La Cremé & they are really MEH De La MEH.”
LMFAO @ MEH dela MEH
Seriously though, you’re on something here. I’ve watched and observed these types of women, through my travels and most women, ( are average at best ) think they are professional models and won’t talk to any man, unless he drives a car, that’s worth 100 grand!
Young, fit, pretty, childless, solid relationship intangibles, sexually available.
I know you are not into women like that, but you have to ask MEN what they like in women, not what you believe MEN should like in women. Being honest with yourself, will improve your lot in the long run.”
^^ This is the main issue with women today, they don’t care to ask, what MEN look for and want in a woman.
“Lastly it makes women sound like nothing more than a meat purchase. Valuable.”
“Women evaluate men the same way. We are compared, and the very best available of us are chosen by women.”
“You are not a victim, but really a volunteer.”
I see that you pointed out, the double standard, that exists between men and women. Women can evaluate men, via physical and financial methods but god forbid, men evaluate women in the methods, stated above.
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Peanut, we have absolutly seen conflicting descriptions of white people on here
A white person can be racist towards black people, not want to have sex with them at all , not want their children to have relationships and mixed kids
that is stark contrast to your examples , which involve racist whites who in some way , in their racism, fit black people into some sexual scenario, that varies, you have the southern white notion that sex in the woodshed with a black woman is a right of passage, but , they wont want a black man having sex with their women…that is direct contrast to what you portray
and my point was, with so many contrasting depictions, its really best for you to judge white people’s sexual notions on an individual basis…what is wrong with that?
But lets look at your “mandingo” scenario…I mean, in all seriousness, what percentage of white men do you think actualy have that ? It seems you are building a whole template of arguments based on a behaviour that is rare in white men…I dont know any white men that think like this..I dont care, I really dont judge people’s sexual fantasies and desires , but , in serious reality, what percentage of white men do you think are walking around wishing a black man would bang their wife?
Its funny you would rather hold on to that than actualy go back and disscuss with me the origins of where the political agenda came down in the black Civil Rights Movement, that said black people shouldnt sleep with white people .
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Well, Jefe, just to address your passing thought, next time you see me with an Asian woman, why dont you just fuking bring it..you too Kiwi, lets just get it fuking on if you dont like it
To anyone, if you see me with the type of woman with your background, and it fuks you up so bad , when you dont even know me, man, just fuking bring it..Im not bullsh!ting with this, Im prepared to go all the way , I dont think any of you with your anti interracial sexual attitudes have the will I do to see your political agenda through to the end like I have the will to absolutly defy your bullsh!t notions…we can take this on line, off line, any time any where…
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Yeah, there is no polite disscusion on this, the ominous truth underneath leaves no room for compramise…in my decades of dealing with uptight attitudes on interracial sex from all sides leaves no doubt about the true intentions underneath the rhetoric, psycho babble analysing and just plain bigotry
White racist Jeff implied Im a traitor to the white race for having a mixed kid, TrojanPam refferred to it as “sowering” a child, like it was pigs or something..I raised my son , and , along with the love, a strong Afro diasporic itendity, I had his back, and now he has mine, not long distance love
I know only too well what lies underneath the bullsh!t agenda, and I fight it with every fiber of my being
I dont care what personal desician any of you make about your own lives, dont step over my line ,or be prepared to get seriously challenged
This is no joke , or tea and crumpets tete a tete…
You step out the door in an interracial relationship and this is the real,ominous crud that is out there, make no mistake about it…this crud can kiss my behind
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Wow wtf is transpiring here? o.O lol Are people taking Jefe’s lynching joke(please correct me if it wasn’t) seriously??
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Oh yeah, really funny…I get the meaning only too well underneath Jefes little joke
Lets get one thing straight , this wont be white people against POC, because huge amounts of POC will be fighting this crap side by side with me..like my sister in law , who would disembowel anyone , figurativly, and literaly if anyone suggested this anti interracial sex crap to her
This isnt a fuking joke, Ive sat here and read some despicable and disgusting notions of interracial sex..and its a joke ?
Its not funny to me..fuk that
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Its not funny to me…this is no joke
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Yeah, well take your punk personal disgruntled resentments out of your history lesson
In the classification of POC, there are lots of people who have done serious damage to Afro descendants
The Asian narrative hardly looks after the cultural needs of my wife and son, which you have no idea of… You and Jefe have no idea of what the real struggle of Afro diasporic cultures are and what my wife and son really are up against in the battle for their cultural identity
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And, dum butt, its not that Asians are commies, its that they are as capable as any other humans to just eliminate and anialate millions and millions of people, which I would never atribute to Asian people, I atribute it to the human condition
Only chumps like you, Kiwi, try to make it stereotypes..fuk that
This isnt a joke , this is dead serious
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As a product of an interracial relationship, I am fine with them. Also, it is far more likely than not that any relationship I am in will be interracial because of me. So, if I were against such relationships, I would not only be against myself having any relationships at all, but also against my own existence!
However, I do think racism, prejudice, fetishisation and internalised racism are big issues for both the interracial couple and any children they might have. That goes for POC as well as white people because I know there are groups that are anti-Black (or anti- anyone naturally darker than them) and, even IF you do marry and maybe have kids with someone of a different race that DOES NOT guarantee you are cured of all racism against people of that race. I’ve seen it in my own family and in others.
I recently read an awful story about someone born to a racist white mother and a Black father (completely consensual, since I know some people will be sure it was not…). The white family is so racist, one of them even joined some white supremacist group and the poor kid always has to listen to how Black people are this and that, while they tag `but you’re different’ on the end, as if that magically erases the horrific racism.
As for me, my white parent is pretty racist and my East Asian parent seems aware of racism in general, but prefers to pretend it isn’t there. Needless to say, I didn’t grow up very racially aware. When I experienced obvious racism (I excused all subtle things as `simple jokes’ as white people do), I felt I had no one to turn to when my white parent could never understand and my East Asian parent preferred not to talk about it… Even when gangs came round screaming racial slurs and threatening us, we never spoke about it. I suffered from internalised racism for a long time and didn’t `wake up’ until later in life. Then I had a lot of psychological struggles with that and realising how everyone had been kicking me, telling me it’s good for me and how easily I believed them.
I think the best way anyone can go into an interracial relationship without damaging themselves, others or even their own children, is to make sure they are socially aware, well-educated on racial issues and that their partner is the same. If they plan on having any kids, they should also be ready to prepare them for the racism they will most likely face in the world. My life would have been a lot easier if I had that support system there and had known what to expect from the world. How to stay strong and not let anyone or anything teach me to hate myself for not being white.
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Legion, Ive been fighting Two fronts for 3 decades, in Brazil, there are plenty of anti Americans..its why i had to dig só deep for the truth
Id rather deal with anti Americanism than anti interracial sex..racism is in Brazil, you cant escape that, but, you dont find the anti interracial sex tirade
This is bilge water from a great black Civil Rights Movement, but invented and perfected by white racists
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Iris, there is nothing I have said that indicates I think interracial sex or relationships cures racism…I havent seen it thatmuch as an argument, interesting how it is always used here like its a factor
What gets ignored here , are the millions and millions of interracial relationships that are funtioning…everyone has their anecdotes, I can counter with plenty of anecdotes to show another story
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B.R. – There is nothing I said that indicated I was talking about you or replying to you in my previous post.
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Gosh, people use this all the time “oh, interracial relationships cant cure racism”, but my god, take away all interracial relationships on the planet and it wont make one dent in racism..
The incredible thing about living in brazil, after living in the States, is how the racist dynamic plays out in both countries, and they are more similar than any other countries about their size and pasts dealing with slaves from Africa..
For me, the great truths from the black American CivilRights Movement, are the truths that play out in the other countries that had slaves from Africa , in the Americas
discrimination, white privilege,rape and women used for sex, colorisation, exclusion from the media, cultural assasination, dissmisal, burial and destruction of those black cultures and how those black cultures play out as creating the foundations for those countries they were brought to
The USA had a violent Civil War, that contributed to the extra violence and Jim Crow heaped on black Americans, but, Brazil has extremly violent history of attemting to destroy Afro Brazilian cultures, fro candomble, to Afoxe’s, to Samba , Lambada ( The Forbidden Dance), they were violently repressed
But no where in Brazil, is there a black activist political agenda that black Brazilians shouldnt sleep with white people…even with a white class structure that under the table doesnt want black men dating white women, but is accepted in celebrities…even then, Afro Brazilians havent put out a political agenda like that…that tells me, it isnt a universal dynamic that automaticly plays out, it is a superficial political agenda
Ive tried to get people to go back and analyse the origins of this agenda, ive tried to have an in depth conversation about it, but, no one will address that, or how could other political agendas from that same place, actualy threw Afro diasporic cultures under the bus, like tap dancing…tap dancing is incredibly important, two docus i saw said tap dancers influenced be bop drummers, be bop being one of the highest leval of black American music, by the drummers copying the tappers when they threw their heels down for stronger accents, the bop drummers started to take the bass drum off 4 on the floor and copying the tappers…
Its not surprising some poc on here threw Afro Brazilian cultures under the bus also
I dont trust the POC against white people mantra here, too many POC did great damage to Afro diasporic people and culture…Jefe and Kiwi have no idea what black Afro diasporic culture is, its origins, its struggles and histories of being buried and destroyed to only come out and dominate the countries the slaves were brought to in the Americas…they dont know how to defend the interests of my wife and son and the culture they live and breathe trying to make a living at…that gets thrown under the bus on here, or , the on the ground reality of what discrimination and obstacles are when they travel to the States (“YOU BUY! BUY!”)…I dont trust their judgement of what my wife and son need to be careful of in this world
Its too bad, the Asian/American story is an important one and they have brought great info on that, but buying into anti interracial sex dogma, and making not too funny jokes , and allowing the personal traumas of their past , taint their view of interracial sex (funny Jefe being mixed, but, his life is traumatic, that cant be denied) just makes me have take what they say with a grain of salt,
By buying into the anti interracial sex agenda, they are just drinking the bilge water of a great movement, like an enormous ship, it has its bilge water that gets drained off…but , some people drink it and it gets turned into an abheration…like Jim Crow, One Drop Rule and white racists saying Im a traitor to my race
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Iris, your post came in as I was typing, its not just me, I cant remember a statement on here by anyone saying interracial sex and mixed kids cures racism and colorism…
yet people like Abagond in his post or other people keep saying it as though its our argument…it isnt
Why is it an issue? its not the argument of those of us defending interracial sex
And, not having interracial sex wont put one dent in racism…cmon
not only that, Im not urging anyone poc to have sex with white people…
they are differant issues based on one is a personal desician issue
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@ Iris
Thank you and I appreciate your comment.
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@ Adonis
I don’t know what part of my comment became confusing for you but let me take this time to clear it up for you (and sondis).
“Young, fit, pretty, childless, solid relationship intangibles, sexually available.”—Their are plenty of women out there like this. Sorry if you have not run across much of them. Also I don’t really think you can say what most men want. You really don’t know most men to make such a judgement. And in fit if you mean body type I am really going to have to stop you their because I see more unfit women getting married than fit, so it goes to show it goes much deeper than that.
“Women who have most of those qualities will never be overlooked by men.”—Wrong. Women who are all of these qualities are constantly overlooked by men. Besides the fact that I know quite a few like this..there are youtube videos to support and back that up as well. So it tells me it is not as simple as those things you listed for a woman to just snag up a man.
“And instead of taking a hard look in the mirror & improving themselves, men are to blame for their dating woes.”—Not necessarily but men are a part of it (not all men). Looking at women as a meat purchase should be a problem. They should be valued as a partner and not a good cut of meat.
“I know you are not into women like that, but you have to ask MEN what they like in women, not what you believe MEN should like in women”—Considering that I grew up under the arms of 4 uncles I have realized that each of them like different things. They don’t all like the same darn things in a woman. Which is expected as they are individuals.
“Women evaluate men the same way. We are compared, and the very best available of us are chosen by women.”—Funny how you can speak for how women view men…I am a woman and in making the choice of my husband I did not compare him to anyone. WE dated and had fun….I liked him and he liked me. We got married…so simple.
“You are not a victim, but really a volunteer.”—You know this how? In fact I would more call it a mutual love and understanding. 🙂
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@ sondis
If a person is really serious about a relationship then why in hell should their be a check list. That is probably why the d*mn divorce rates are so high. No substance in relationships.
You are the main one advocating on this blog for black love and pitching fits because of photos or videos of interracial relationships, yet when pointed out part of the problem for why black love does not always workout you fly off into the men bashing corner.
Sorry but men are part of the problem and I think women really just need to find love and a valuable relationship regardless of his color or status.
Do women have things they need to work on? Oh yea but most of that is usually downside pretty quickly as women mature faster than men. 🙂
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On top of that if said woman has a good man then he will help her work on whatever issues she has as he loves her for her.
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In regard to the Queen of spades tattoo. “Well Ms. Mary is clutching her pearls” talk about being reduced to the lowest common denominator, It is not only vile and disgusting, it is racist as hell. I am not surprised though, I learned something new today.
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@ Adonis
I forgot to respond to this.
“The problem @Sharina, we have women out here who are suffering under delusions of grandeur, where they think they are Cremé De La Cremé & they are really MEH De La MEH”—I agree with this but we also have men like this as well. Men who also need to reflect and take a look in the mirror and realize they are not the sh*t. These type of men (from my experience) then run and seek women of other races that will put up with their sh*t (which I think no woman of any race should have to). Might be another reason for the high divorce rates.
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Sondis,
“^^ This is the main issue with women today, they don’t care to ask, what MEN look for and want in a woman.”
Lol. wow. I rest my case.
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@adonis
>But the complaints, usually come from black women who are MAD about a certain >TYPE of BLACK MALE, not giving in to their romantic demands.
>And ALL black men have to take the blame for her entitled disposition.
are you saying what i think you’re saying?
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ah man you did better with one article than i have with my whole blog so far
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i cant barely keep up with my news feed on fb much less twitter instagram tumblr blogging it’s just too much for me
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@Alicia
I agree that certain black women bash black men but never so publicly,mostly among family or friends
However we have a new breed of young men who bash black women encouraged by men in the media such ad Tommy sottomayor these men you will find are mostly ones that date out.
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“Sharina:
You are the main one advocating on this blog for black love and pitching fits because of photos or videos of interracial relationships, yet when pointed out part of the problem for why black love does not always workout you fly off into the men bashing corner. ”
I never pitched a fit for any photos or videos of interracial relationships, this is a outright lie.
“when pointed out part of the problem for why black love does not always workout you fly off into the men bashing corner. ”
This doesn’t even make any sense, why would i, a black man, fly off into the “man bashing corner” being that i am a man?
My main message is that, the MAJORITY of white men, DO NOT value black women in relationships, other than purely sexual.
My message isn’t that of being against, “interracial relationships” per say, that is Adeen’s message and not mine, which i personally don’t have a problem with her message but again, its not what i am trying to push or preach on this blog.
I am more about bringing awareness to black people about white men and women, when it comes to them, courting us as sexual exploits, then throwing us in the trash, when they’re done with us.
You know, having an agenda…..
Its obvious that you aren’t able to differentiate between what i am saying and say someone like, Adeen.
I never ONCE, make a statement, claiming i am against interracial relationships or even the effect it has on interracial children, that isn’t my thing as its been covered by others and that isn’t the message that i care to bring here.
“Sorry but men are part of the problem and I think women really just need to find love and a valuable relationship regardless of his color or status.
Do women have things they need to work on? Oh yea but most of that is usually downside pretty quickly as women mature faster than men”
Its obvious that you’re biased against black men, in the above statements, you touch ever so lightly on black women’s part in all the issues that effect black relationships by saying, “Do black women have things they need to work on? Oh yea but”
There’s always a “But”…. you give black women a pass but go in on black men.
“most of that is usually downside pretty quickly as women mature faster than men”
If this isn’t biased and pure garbage, i don’t know what is. you’re definitely biased and seem to hate black men.
There seems to be a lot of your type of black women on this blog, they talk about loving their black men but constantly bash black men and all the while, dating white men offline. ( double agent for the white man )
The black women that advocate, dating white men on this blog, obviously do and there in lies their agenda for backing it up.
These type of black women, are double agents for the white man, you’re on a black blog, owned and ran by a black man for black people, advocating white on black love but me, a black man on a black blog advocating black on black love, COMES UNDER ATTACK!
NOT WHITE ON BLACK LOVE!
This is a clear and cut case of WHITE SUPREMACY! The majority of black women on this blog are in full fledged, participation of it and have the nerve to act “pro-black” and “loving their own people”
Don’t be fooled by these double agents my brothas and sistas!
I will acknowledge that there are black women and men on this blog that are TRULY pro-black and love their black women and men and would never tell a fellow brotha or sista to run into the arms of a whit person, that has no intention of loving them but using them for sexual gratification.
Any black person, advocating white on black love over black on black love is a double agent, working for the white man under white supremacy.
This is a tactic that been working for 100’s of years to get the black race, “mixed out” so our numbers will dwindle and its been working. The proof of this can be found by just looking at the various amount of black women on this blog, that will be quick to tell a black person to date a white person, than their own, beautiful black race of men and women.
My message you Sharina and all the other black women like you on this blog is that i don’t care how much you try, how long you try and where you try it, you will always be contested by the likes of me, a black man that loves his black women and people. You will not easily white wash and brain wash other black people into loving a race of people that hate us and in essence, preaching against black on black love to black people.
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@ B.R.
Marcus Garvey was, perhaps, the oldest and most vocal anti-interracial sex Black activist to work in the States, however I think the roots of it all go back to the post-reconstruction South which declared the color-line absolute. The Southern Progressive movement developed Jim Crow to prevent interaction between Blacks and Whites for reasons we’d all find disgusting. This hard demarcation of race has made Blacks and Whites more than just races, which are social constructs, but ethnicities or nations which are mutually exclusive to one another and often define themselves by their antagonism with the Other. A major point of being Irish is in NOT being English. A major point of being Dominican is in NOT being Haitian, and as it so happens a major part of being White is in NOT being Black, and vise-versa. It’s no mistake that those who claim White Pride and Pro-Blackness are usually bigots.
In contrast, Brazil sought to destroy Afro-Diasporic culture by “Race-whitening”. Their culture was suppressed while interracial sex was not only allowed, but encouraged as a means to breed out the “degenerate” African stock. Race doesn’t work in Brazil the same way it does in the US; instead of a hard, absolute line between Black and White, there is a gradualism of complexion, oppression, and identity.
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The Asian male resentment theme has gotten old for me.
I’ve dated all races, but prefer NE Asian. That makes me Satan incarnate I guess.
But don’t think for a minute most of those women would not have dated an Asian men. The vast majority had and would. It’s their own race for crying our loud. Why wouldn’t they find men who look like their fathers and brothers attractive, provided those men were attractive? And no, it isn’t due to “Hollywood Brainwashing” that these women like the men they like. Athletic men who meet womens’ height standard are what they desire. You can’t struggle with women because you’re 5’6″ then turn around and blame it in evil whitey imperialism.
And for the record. There is anti- white male persecution in some Asian countries- particularly Korea, which is known as the empire of cockblocking.
You’ll catch a little of it in Japan too. Certainly more than you’d get here for the reverse, as most people of any race are not usually open with their disdain as it makes them look like asses.
Damn white male sexuality is the obsession isn’t it? Like B.R. said the opinions expressed on here are mixed up as hell about what white males truly want.
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D writes:
“It’s no mistake that those who claim White Pride and Pro-Blackness are usually bigots.”
_ _ _
Yes, so I’ve noticed!
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@sharina
You are a great sport. Let’s play hide & get it.
—
Adonis
I did not misunderstand your comment. I have been in countless on-line & off-line conversations with black women & I have a very good feel where y’all are coming from.
Let us keep it one million, the black women on-line who preach that fake black nationalism (no disrespect to those who are for real) & play the “loyal” card, are older, fatter, uglier, kids in tow, looking to be saved by a unsuspecting simpish black male. And those black men are wising up, as the Internet continues to increase in influence.
Yes, NON-BLACK WOMEN (Excluding Native African Women)
Well, ask yourself this, @Sharina, because you are being dense & you won’t get off your fantasy island.
Give the average man a MILLION dollars, a Mercedes Benz S-Class car, & a nice home, and I promise you that he will not pick a woman who is
FAT,
have pre-existing children
Old
Ugly
And with poor feminine relationship intangibles
You are CONFUSING what MEN WANT in a woman, with what MEN can reasonably get based on their sexual market value
Physical Looks
Personality (Strong Social Skills)
Finances/Social Standing
Seckual Intercourse intangibles
These unfit women are not dating top shelf men. And when it comes to FATHERLESS BLACK MEN, these kinds of men are more likely to date down, and put up with more from subpar women.
As far as FIT women not getting chose. A lot of these women don’t want to get married until they are UNFIT (old & fat) & have unreasonable standards in men.
Flag on the play. @Sharina
What do men value in women?
Just because you think these women are all that, the men around them, think differently.
The most likely case is that, these women are not getting the kinds of men that they want.
But they are being approached by the men the DON’T want in spades.
They DO NOT APPROACH MEN.
They focus on their education & they have a busy life & DO NOT PRIORITIZE DATING
They are NO WOMEN, who are IN DEMAND by MEN, and they want a relationship, but are SINGLE.
If I have one conversation with one of those women you know, their flaws would be exposed quickly.
Well in 2013, if people want to have a successful romantic life, they have to put the time & effort in.
Women unreasonably expect men to do the heavy lifting when it comes to men & women romantically getting together.
Outside of seckual assault @sharina, YOU CHOOSE THE KIND OF MEN YOU ALLOW INTO YOUR LIFE.
If you are in an environment with subpar men, MOVE. Very simple
Men are not the problem, on why you & other black women are suffering.
Too many men on this earth for that lie.
That is what low-value people say.
But the fact that you turn some MEN down romantically & accept a few to sleep with you in your lifetime @Sharina, proves that you value some men romantically more than others.
It just “wrong” when the MEN YOU WANT, don’t want YOU.
Give your uncles some money & resources, I promise you the women they check for fall in line with my checklist above.
You used your uncle, your girlfriends & your husband as examples. Not great samples.
Your husband was the best available attractive dude that was willing to commit. End. Of.
Just reminding women that they have to take responsibility for their choices in life & scapegoat men who have nothing to do with their situation.
Good day @Sharina
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“Race-whitening”.
_ _ _
Or mejorar la raza (“improving the race”) in certain Hispanophone countries.
“And where is your grandmother…?” is another phrase (in Spanish of course) used in certain Latin American countries to hint at the pervasive attempts among ‘white’ Latinos to hide or to eradicate visible African ancestry (i.e., the black grandmother is typically hidden from view -.in the kitchen or closet – on certain occasions where company is expected).
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@King…“I am selfish in love, I do not love out of some strange commitment to my ethnicity. I love because the chemistry in my brain sets off my heart and I feel passion.”
Yes-s-s-s-s!
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@ Adonis
“I did not misunderstand your comment. I have been in countless on-line & off-line conversations with black women & I have a very good feel where y’all are coming from.”—Considering each one is different I doubt you have enough understanding of where we are coming from. Even in this room alone not all women are coming from the same place.
“Let us keep it one million, the black women on-line who preach that fake black nationalism (no disrespect to those who are for real) & play the “loyal” card, are older, fatter, uglier, kids in tow, looking to be saved by a unsuspecting simpish black male.”—Sorry but I am going to have to disagree. Not all of them are. In fact considering that they are online I have a hard time picturing anyone on here knowing how they look or what they have going on in their life.
“Yes, NON-BLACK WOMEN”—Wrong again. Maybe where you life that might actually be true but that is not actually the truth of what I have seen in the black women in my area or in other areas I have been in through my travels. So the question is what are you basing this misinformation on?
“Well, ask yourself this, @Sharina, because you are being dense & you won’t get off your fantasy island.”—If I am in a fantasy land then I guess you are sitting right beside me because I have a black fat female friend who works for Mercedes Benz Corporation and has been chosen by quite a few men…one which was Nigerian and willing to drop any and everything for her. So I guess your theory is a bit lacking.
“These unfit women are not dating top shelf men.”—See above information on friend (so proud of her by the way).
“A lot of these women don’t want to get married until they are UNFIT (old & fat) & have unreasonable standards in men.”—I don’t think you should go so far as to say a lot.
“What do men value in women?”—Can’t answer for what men value in women. I can only answer for what my husband values in me.
“Just because you think these women are all that, the men around them, think differently.”—Based on your criteria these women should have “kneegrows” lined up around the block. Right? So why it now a matter of what I might or might not think of them?
“The most likely case is that, these women are not getting the kinds of men that they want”—I will remember to ask them what they want, but the issue or claim you made was that based on the criteria you put forth they should be presented with plenty of men. They aren’t and it is not always the case no matter how valuable they are. Things are much deeper than simply that. The remainder of what you said is just deflection and I will not give it anymore attention than that.
“Men are not the problem, on why you & other black women are suffering.”—Considering the fact that I am happily married I am confused on where you get the idea that I am suffering. Oh is this the part where you paint me as the angry black woman with low value and such to denounce my credibility?
“Give your uncles some money & resources, I promise you the women they check for fall in line with my checklist above. “ —Actually my uncles own their own business. The one who started it built his own house recently and they all seem to be living quite nicely. Yet each have chosen based on their own value of the women they are with.
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@ Adonis
“You used your uncle, your girlfriends & your husband as examples. Not great samples.”—Perfect for displaying that their is no road map with checklist to these situations.
“Your husband was the best available attractive dude that was willing to commit. End. Of.”—Ummm no. If you were here long enough to hear my story you would know my husband and I journey was a very long one as he was not the only suitor at the time (I guess desperate personal attacks is what you got going for you so….) among other things. I just make the choice in my life not to choose a man based petty things that will mean absolutely nothing in the long wrong.
“Just reminding women that they have to take responsibility for their choices in life & scapegoat men who have nothing to do with their situation.”—Yet you have failed to show where I have used men as a scapegoat in my post. So as you continue to misunderstand my post rest assured you have displayed the very reason you have the angry black women who have spoken out on these issues in the way they have. 🙂
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sondis said:
>You will not easily white wash and brain wash other black people into loving a race >of people that hate us and in essence, preaching against black on black love to >black people in essence, preaching against black on black love to black people.
i’m not about telling anyone whom to see
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@ Asplund
Just saw this comment and debated on if it was worth responding to which it mainly was not, but hey what the heck I’m bored.
“No- If you had even the most basic logic at your disposal you’d see that that very definition- intolerance, is exactly what I’m talking about. Bigots lack tolerance of others. Bigots show intolerance. Bigots are intolerant of interracial marriages. Jesus Christ it’s that fucking simple. Goddamn.”—You claimed discrimination as the definition of bigotry. So now on another thread you are backtracking on the definition and trying to claim it as something else. So you lack no logic skills…just the ability to weasel your way out of the bs you keep throwing out there.
“It proves that it is completely unnecessary to know every thought and life experience a bigot has had to call someone a bigot. Holding a bigoted position is in itself justification for calling someone a bigot.”—What does that have to do with your premise? You made the claim that people against interracial relationships are bigots, but if you don’t have a clue why they feel that way then how in hell can you claim them to be a bigot. Bigoted positions vary from one person to the next. I have thus concluded you a bigot (I am sure you will say you are not).
“Sharina I don’t get what I haven’t demonstrated?”—That is funny considering I copied and pasted it for you several times now (granted abagond did delete one for being off topic).
1. “You can walk into any university, government building, and most churches in this country and 99% of the people inside would be horrified at the thought of prohibiting interracial relationships”—You need to prove this number as true.
2. People against interracial marriages are bigots (something you still have not proved).
“A. Discriminating against someone based on race is bigoted behavior.”—That is great. Don’t see where I disagreed with that, but that does not prove that because a person is against interracial marriages that they are then bigots. So fail. You are trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.
“B. Intolerance of interracial marriage is discrimination because you are against a person loving another person based on race/ethnicity/religion, etc. therefore those opposed to interracial relationships are bigots.”—Another stretch on your part. Like I said before people are against the relationships for several reasons and not all of them have to do with the race, ethnicity, or religion of the person.
Had you read what I said in the other threads then you could have saved a lot of typing of simply repeats.
“Sharina the fact that the supreme court made the ruling it did, the fact that not one state in the union has been able to maintain its laws against irr is proof that the vast majority of people, or at least the vast majority of those with power, oppose prohibiting interracial relationships. Jesus.”—That is great but what percentage is the vast majority of people in power? Heck how many laws ruled by the supreme court has been changed or anyone attempted to really change? So that proves about nothing in your premise. This is the real issue here…what exactly does a judge saying “ok interracial relationships are equal” have to do with your idea that because a person is against it they are a bigot (you have yet to quote from the case where the judge said in his words it was such)
“Sharina, you completely (and intentionally) ignored my proof of this concept. I showed you the one example of a public figure who opposed irr”—So now one source speaks for the “vast majority?” One source tells how the “vast majority” thinks and feels? So this is the kind of logic you speak of? Then it is official. I speak for all black people…my opinions represent the vast majority.
“If this discussion is going to go anywhere, you have to have advanced past the first grade.”—Unfortunately for you I advanced well past the 12th. So I will dumb myself down in the next exchange so that you can keep up.
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boo on comment in moderation for asplund.
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@ Asplund
“Let me prove what I said, indisputably (to those willing to listen):”—Look who is worried about what people will think or see. Was it not on another thread you projected such behavior on me….hmmmm
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Sharina –
What?
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D , thanks for your comment, and first off, I agree, the first anti interracial people are the white racists…they invented this…Id understand more if people just said they were playing tit for tat…
Marcus Garvey…yes, good call, and I guess you would have to include Nation of Islam, at that time, “The Black Muslims” of Eligah Mohammed, they may have changed their policy
For me, the major origin of the anti interracial stance, from a black activist standpoint , that affects the diologue and rhetoric into today, came in the late 60’s,at least became more public, there was also the Fannon/Freud group , that went into the psycho analysis/ political angle, the forerunner of the psycho/political rhetoric analysis you see on here , even…
what I keep saying is, there were other agendas at the same time, of course in a huge movement, that had tremendous struggle , and aceived great things in american history ,but there were other agendas that were not well thought out , and beg to be tweaked, rethought, or out right jetisoned
this was the time also where , some of the activists decided to mandate that whites should be kicked out of the movement
but, the armstrong agenda was totaly cruel and a low blow to one of black americas greatest innovators, who changed the world of music…only great people like Wynton and Branford Marsalis helped bring back the great respect Armstrong deserved, the people who pushed the crap never recanted
Tap dancing has never recovered the respect for its great artistry that it deserves…
The point being, these were obvious flawed agendas , and its obvious that putting unreal mandates on people telling them who they can and can not have a relationship with, puts enormous false preasure on both the men and women, and, the fall out and damage because of this political agenda , is sad, huge, dangerous , deviding and damaging beyond beleif…I didnt hardly participate on the BWE thread and it was huge huge huge…anti interracial sex debates are the hottest contested threads by a long shot
If no one interracialy dated, it wouldnt stop white racism at all…yet, this flawed agenda gets the lions share of attention, with celebrity gossip as the center peice…no wonder its more popular than black american jazz history
All this wasted deviding energy from a flawed political agenda
The truth about Brazil is, this “whitening” agenda was nowhere in sight when I got there in 86, and was farther back in Brazil history..personaly, I dont think it was a strong government push…they more encouraged European immigration , and, the TV did more damage to put white people at center stage than anything before that…
And, here is the real deal, the greater mixture, only means the brown results are just marganilised with the black Brazilians…if you go to travel gates in airports in major cities like Rio and Sao Paulo, the people waiting for flights are phenotype white…most Iniversity students before quotas were phenotype white,most polititions could get into the KKK…and if you look at the huge numbwer of photographs of the people killed or missing trying to have an armed revolution against the Dictatorship, they are overwelmingly phenotype white…the media , even with quotas is overwelmingly phenotype white
In Northern and North East cities, there are more brwon and black people in hugher places, since they are the majority of the population, but , still, the elites are more phenotype white
Whitening doesnt play out how you expect…but, with a similar racist dynamic as the states, there is no black activist position what so ever about who black Brazilians should sleep with…which really proves this is a political agenda and not an automatic universal black position about sleeping with whites is like sleeping with the oppressor orf the enemy..it should be jetisoned,
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@B.R.
I should have prefaced my paragraph on Brazil with “or so I’ve read”. I’m still learning about African-American history, let alone Brazilian history, so If I’m wrong about something in Brazil feel free to correct me.
It hurts the children of such unions more than anything else.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eKbGDwN2N0&noredirect=1)
One rationale is all about power. The idea is that if Oppression is bigotry+power, one could either attack the bigotry or answer power with power. A larger “pure” Black population would be beneficial to that end (especially if you’re having fever dreams of a Race War), while multiracial people would have conflicting loyalties (bleh!).
I can empathize somewhat. “Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.” I lean slightly more towards T. Washington and his disciples than towards Dubois, except on the matter of appeasement. I do believe that we must enrich and invest in our intra-racial networks, and that we cannot hope that White America will stop being racist and honor our rights on good faith alone. However, I won’t stand between two people that love each other, whomever or whatever they are, and I despise people that would personally and on principle.
It’s an American/Western European eugenics position. While we are a distinct ethnicity, America, and the West more generally, still shapes who we are and how we think. We simply appropriate their ideas for ourselves, sometimes for the better: “What is the Fourth of July to the Negro”, sometimes for the worse. Unfortunately, ideas are almost impossible to kill.
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Kiwi-
I’ve never heard a white person use an ethnic slur against an Asian. That doesn’t mean they don’t happen. It’s just anecdotal. I’ve witnessed multiple instances of black in Asian hostility, and MANY of the reverse.
Again there are whites who look down on Asians. At the same time I don’t think any of the “political” issues ate really driving anger, because Asians in general match whites in economic terms.
The issue is anger over interracial relationships. Those are going to happen whether we like it or not.
For the Asian guys I’ve known, plenty got dates. I am always alarmed at just how much anger there is among Asian men over irr. Tons of Asian guys get white girls.
Too often, personal defects are masked by political sentiment. I’m not saying you are doing this, but there have been a number of Asian guys ice known complaining about irr when the problem was they were 5’6″, not that they were Asian. Same with black women who are older/ obese. These are individual flaws not racial.
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Looks to me that lot of discussion is actually about male/female dynamics and feminist/patriarchal issues and that race is only one aspect of those wider issues.
I do not care who you are, what you are, where you are from, what is your skin color, religion, culture or what language you speak. If you love someone, you love someone for what ever that someone is.
I understand some of the race issues, but if you go around picking your possible companion based on her/his “race” you are stone cold racist yourself, regardless of your own color. And I repeat it so that there is no confusion or misunderstanding: if you choose your companion simply on racial bases you are a racist yourself.
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@Dave
I think you might have a reading problem. You seriously don’t believe that I even remotely advocate any of that in the slightest. Of course I would not in the slightest consider that.
It was more like a thought experiment similar to Abagond’s Chinese Invasion thought experiment. Some of the commenters on that post thought he was serious and responded accordingly.
The fact that you thought I might even contemplate that caused you to lose all credibility with me (not that most of it was considerably lost already). The fact that you think I would think like that tells me a lot about YOU! 😛
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Its obvious its a joke , Jefe, very obvious..its just a mean spirited thought experiment…its funny you would say that in referance to white men dating Asian women, not white racist men who do hate Asians (not that there cant be a white man with an asian woman and be racist, that never was my point, my point is you cant judge people you dont even know…maybe that Asian woman feels your stare and is shooting her defences back at you)
Ill say it again, you, Jefe, and Kiwi, bring valuable information to the table about white racism in America against Asians, and the huge absence of the Asian story..and I like how you put it as “our story”, Jefe…but , when you start breaking it down to judging people you dont even know, for who they are dating, then you left good sence behind
And, Jefe, i listened to you a long time , listened to your personal story, listened to your history informative breakdfowns, but , when you start shifting into the “its POC against white people and white people and thwe West are the most violent rithless people in all history..’, then we are going to break it down and that is why , after maybe a thousand posts about how really horrible america is, and that it is the cesspool of evilness in human history, its a good idea to racalibrate to reality and remember that just in my life time, you have 20 million killed in the Red Cultural Revolution, 30 million starved in maos marxist back to the feilds campain, 6 million eliminated by the Khmer rouge in Cambodia , and the state of living in North Korrea, it just is a pristine example killing two birdes with one stone in my lifetime, communism is horrible, and Asians have as much capacity to destroy and eliminate people as anyone else…see i dont buy the arab Trader argument or you cant pull back and get some total perspective about the real truth , in the whole world as we bash America …Ive seen far too many people where I live make america the boogy man and not acknowledge these horrible things in my lifetime
And again, I dont implicate Asians, I say they are part of the human condition and these horrible acts were done by people who just happen to be Asian…it implicates humanity not Asians
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http://racismws.com/2013/10/13/after-the-trayvon-martin-verdict-what-can-black-people-do-part-five/
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Sharina, Linda and Peanut, it would be a priviledge and honor to fight against white racism with you all , you have been some of the staunchest voices against white racism…you, and others, dont deserve to be raked under the coals
D, thanks for answering again the subjects Im trying to disscuss
I always thought of Brazil as the same as the USA, colonised by the Portuguese , brought slaves from Africa, destroyed the Indians ,black African culture is destroyed , but, comes back to dominate the culture and the white elite dictate the dynamic in politics and the media and it is under Western thought…in fact, its a tremendous education for me to be in a place that is so close to the USA in racial dynamic…it points out the similarities and differances…which is why I see parralel truths , which are the ones I call the universal truths of how racism plays out in the Americas with slavery, and then the differances, like there is no agenda to tell people, from the black activist side, who they can or cant date
D, where I totaly agree with you, the solution to fighting white racism is developing education, building black businesses , supporting them, I might add, understanding the real black history and the story of cultural anialation and how that plays out in the media now,and understanding black struggles against white racism in other countries and their particular story and how it plays out
I dont agree that eliminating people from the process is benificial, including eliminating white people….the more mixed people are included and the white people who do see the racism and are against it also, then it can only get stronger
but it is seriously imperative that these other voices understand black culture and the specific needs and opressions black culture is subjected to…just being against white racism but not understanding black culture doesnt cut it..its not about being color blind and we are all one , or we all have to act the same bland way
Making it only if you are pure black game, only makes the voices smaller, the defence smaller, and, unfortunatly, as you see on here, it doesnt play out on the ground…you eliminate other people and then infighting just starts happening…and, I am sad to see black men and women going at each other over this interracial question…I would prefer to not see that than whether tap dancing or Armstrong are accepte…but that was totaly jive to throw them under the bus….totaly
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@ Asplund
Excuse me for butting into this conversation, but you said something that I would like to address on a serious note.
“I’m not saying you are doing this, but there have been a number of Asian guys ice known complaining about irr when the problem was they were 5’6″, not that they were Asian. Same with black women who are older/ obese. These are individual flaws not racial.”—I agree that what you mentioned is individuals flaws but see how quick you turned them into racial ones. Those are flaws that anyone at any point in time could have.
On another note my Chinese friend is married to a white man shorter than she is, but she loves him and he loves her. My mixed mother is on the obese side, but always ends up dating or marrying fit black men. It tells me that what people considering flaws are only flaws in their eyes.
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@Asplund
what’s wrong with being 5’6″? My social life is quite successful.
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Tell me, people,
Why is it when a Black woman or other POC critique IRs and talk about the history and double standards/privilege surrounding such relationships, we get labelled as “racists”, “reverse racists”, are are told to “get over it!?”
It’s sad that people want other voices to be silent because it doesn’t fit with their stereotypical, or white privilege viewpoint. They don’t want to be reminded of the painful history surrounding IRs between whites and POC, nor do they want to hear about Black and other POC unity because it interferes with their racial sexual privilege. They especially do this to Sistas more so than any other group.
That’s my two cents on the matter.
Stephanie B.
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Kiwi, statistically, white women do not last as long as non-white women in interracial unions.
I think Peanut may have implied this earlier in one of her responses…
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@B.R.
While racism and White Supremacy play out in America and Brazil in a very similar manner, I think there is a huge difference between how Afro-Brazilians and Afro-Americans responded to that racism. Contrary to pro-Black lamentations of disunity, we have a long legacy of Black-consciousness and pro-active cooperation in academics, politics, the arts, and the sciences that is about a century or more in the making. We didn’t simply recover our culture, we created something novel. It’s both a blessing and a curse; the Civil Rights movement could never have happened otherwise, but because the maturation of this legacy coincided with the Eugenics movement and the rise of Fascism, we’re going to be stuck with this kind of mess for a very long time. Dubois and Garvey, two fathers of 20th century Black political thought, were Eugenicists, and the latter was a Fascist. From what I understand, Afro-Brazilians have only began to develop a similar legacy in the 1970s. Where this Afro-Brazilian consciousness leads is still to be seen.
I was explaining at least one rationale of anti-interracial Black activists, not my own, sorry for not making that more clear. I wouldn’t turn away anyone wanting to help. I just don’t believe that White Supremacy can be defeated solely by having Tim Wise, or anyone for that matter, lecture to the choir. It’s going to take economic empowerment and political savvy to slay this beast.
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@ Sondis
“I never pitched a fit for any photos or videos of interracial relationships, this is a outright lie.”—Nice how you forgot the situation with Linda.
“This doesn’t even make any sense, why would i, a black man, fly off into the “man bashing corner” being that i am a man?”—Then I will clarify. You are all for black love in ten fold until anyone in here point to men as the problem in regards to why black love fall apart. At that moment you are the first to run to the corner of men bashing meaning the corner that claims women are bashing men rather than simply pointing out flaws in some black men.
“My main message is that, the MAJORITY of white men, DO NOT value black women in relationships, other than purely sexual.”—Don’t care and I don’t really see where in my statement I made a hint at wanting to address this.
“Its obvious that you aren’t able to differentiate between what i am saying and say someone like, Adeen.”—Oh I can differentiate quite well and it is quite telling how you are ready to throw her under the bus at first chance you get.
“I never ONCE, make a statement, claiming i am against interracial relationships or even the effect it has on interracial children, that isn’t my thing as its been covered by others and that isn’t the message that i care to bring here.”—Really…I think there are several threads on here that I can pull up to prove otherwise. You know your own words is what hurt you. You might want to get a head start on asking Abagond to delete them before I find them.
“There’s always a “But”…. you give black women a pass but go in on black men.”—Do me a favor and read what comes after the but. Oh and find one post where I have ever and I mean ever went in on black men.
“If this isn’t biased and pure garbage, i don’t know what is. you’re definitely biased and seem to hate black men.”—If this isn’t delusion I don’t know what is. Where does this statement single out black men? It would be more accurate if you said I have a bias against men.
“There seems to be a lot of your type of black women on this blog, they talk about loving their black men but constantly bash black men and all the while, dating white men offline. ( double agent for the white man )”—Nope I just call a spade a spade and I refuse to give all black men the thumbs up for what some black men do well at. Sorry but all black men do not deserve to ride on the achievements of the ones who have achieved. My husband is Hispanic. I have never referred to him or seen him as a white male.
As for the rest of what you said…good to know. I DON’T CARE. 🙂
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@ sam
Very well said and I agree.
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@BR
Since when did I ever do that? There is no way that I would espouse that belief.
Agree with you there.
I never once implicated that Asians have not done horrific acts against other Asians and against non-Asians. I never implicated that the “west” or America is the main or only boogeyman. Of course they are not uniquely evil.
When we mention about slavery, massacres and genocides (or just plain vanilla racist violence) in the USA, there was never any implication that it did not happen elsewhere, even perhaps on a bigger scale, or that we do not need to condemn horrific atrocities whenever or wherever they occur.
The point is this – if we mention a massacre that occurred somewhere at some point in time, why bring up another massacre that occurred elsewhere at some other point in time by a different group of people? Is the point supposed to make the first incident less serious, less horrific, less impactful? Never was the purpose of mentioning the first incident to imply that the perpetrators of that incident were uniquely evil, or that similar or worse evils did not exist elsewhere.
However, by bringing up all sorts of other incidents in response to a mention of the first incident, unless there was some insight gleaned from the other incident (besides noting that humans all of the world in all time periods could commit crimes against humanity), the mention of the first incident gets derailed. There seems no other purpose other than to derail (as we all know that other humans can also be evil).
To give you an example. Suppose we wanted to make a statement about the extent of the deaths attributable to the social policies of the Great Leap Forward, but then brought up an example of how people were deliberately killed in lynchings and genocide in the USA in the 19th and 20th centuries, wouldn’t that be derailing the points you would be trying to make about the Great Leap Forward policies?
AND, I never judged about who people are dating. I have no problem with anyone dating anyone else. Are you confusing me with someone else? I never made any comment about who people should date.
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@sam eh… why do you consider those of us who date out racist
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But I am stil waiting for Kiwi to explain to me why he brought up several examples of his Hapa cousins or acquaintances that were specifically addressed to me — is he looking for an explanation from me, or just validation of his experience?? Or should I just acknowledge how, in the process of becoming whitewashed, some people feel compelled to perform certain behaviors that can be demeaning to others.
How would Kiwi feel if a Hapa or Eurasian told him that he acted or thought in a very “white” way? In other words, not bashing him for being Asian but remarking how whitewashed or westernized he seems.
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@sam admittedly a lot of the black women whom i have dated have been black+ in terms of their dating preferences, i don’t even know if only one or two at all had an object preference for white men, granted, but why is that different if i just prefer black women? i don’t get it
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trojanpam been said that too i told her i didn’t get it then either no good effin reply just throwin that one out there on the table, yo
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@ v8driver
I don’t really think it is a problem with preference (atleast for me) but I will say that love can come from the most odd places.
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Sharina:
@ Sondis
“I never pitched a fit for any photos or videos of interracial relationships, this is a outright lie.”—Nice how you forgot the situation with Linda.”
You’re obviously twisting my words on why i was objecting, it had nothing to do with videos and pictures, nice try and trying to derail but you failed miserably.
“This doesn’t even make any sense, why would i, a black man, fly off into the “man bashing corner” being that i am a man?”—Then I will clarify. You are all for black love in ten fold until anyone in here point to men as the problem in regards to why black love fall apart. At that moment you are the first to run to the corner of men bashing meaning the corner that claims women are bashing men rather than simply pointing out flaws in some black men.”
This is an outright lie!!
I never got upset about black women, pointing out flaws in back men, its always black women that get upset when black men, point out flaws in them.
““My main message is that, the MAJORITY of white men, DO NOT value black women in relationships, other than purely sexual.”—Don’t care and I don’t really see where in my statement I made a hint at wanting to address this.”
Of coarse you don’t care, you’re a double agent black woman, working for the white man, trying to convince black people to date with people on a black blog.
“Oh I can differentiate quite well and it is quite telling how you are ready to throw her under the bus at first chance you get.”
Nice try DOUBLE AGENT black woman…to attempt to try and pit Adeen against me!
This is typical of black women like you, to always try to make it where a black man is trying to attack another black woman on this blog, so you can garner support from all other black women!
There is another black women on this blog that did the very same thing!
My quote from post about about Adeen’s message on this blog:
Sondis:
“My message isn’t that of being against, “interracial relationships” per say, that is Adeen’s message and not mine, which i personally don’t have a problem with her message but again, its not what i am trying to push or preach on this blog.”
“which i personally don’t have a problem with her message”
where am i throwing Adeen under the bus???
“but again, its not what i am trying to push or preach on this blog.”
AGAIN, where?
Nice try but again, you failed miserably.
“I never ONCE, make a statement, claiming i am against interracial relationships or even the effect it has on interracial children, that isn’t my thing as its been covered by others and that isn’t the message that i care to bring here.”—Really…I think there are several threads on here that I can pull up to prove otherwise. You know your own words is what hurt you. You might want to get a head start on asking Abagond to delete them before I find them.”
I back peddle on nothing i say! I may comment on other issues but that doesn’t mean that is the core of the message i bring, far as interracial dating, between white and black people. So feel free to look up my previous posts, you won’t find anything, incriminating.
“Do me a favor and read what comes after the but. Oh and find one post where I have ever and I mean ever went in on black men.”
You’re going in on me AND idonis
“If this isn’t delusion I don’t know what is. Where does this statement single out black men? It would be more accurate if you said I have a bias against men.”
The oddity of this statement is that, you didn’t even argue the fact that you’re a black man hater, only the semantics of how i should have said you were a “man” hater.
This proves and confirms, what i already knew about you, you secretly hate black men and worship with men, this is your sole purpose for being on this black blog, not to uplift and support black men but you uplift and support black women, bashing black men.
“Nope I just call a spade a spade and I refuse to give all black men the thumbs up for what some black men do well at. Sorry but all black men do not deserve to ride on the achievements of the ones who have achieved. My husband is Hispanic. I have never referred to him or seen him as a white male.”
Fist off, my message has to do with how white men, don’t value black women in any serious capacity, other than sex, not black men’s faults within black on black relationships but you’re trying to make it about that and not my real argument.
Here is the real reason you’re attacking me, a black man on a black blog:
You as a black woman are so upset about the fact that a white man, doesn’t want you!
This is why all of the black women on this blog, that has gotten angry at me for revealing this fact. So you take it out on black men, because you feel rejected by the white man for not wanting you in any REAL sense
Its sad to see black women like you, be this bitter.
“As for the rest of what you said…good to know. I DON’T CARE.”
Of coarse you don’t care about black men, my whole point….
Black men and women, don’t need double agent black women like you, sharina. So continue to push white supremacy via black on white love on a black blog, i will always contest black women with the likes of you.
Have a nice day. 🙂
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@sharina (high-five btw)
no i am responding to 2 specific things, sam and trojanpam, thanks.
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@ Sondis
I think you might want to look at the definition of derail before you continue the onslaught of using it in situations where it does not apply. Though it was quite suspicious you flew off the handle after she posted a picture article of McCain and his new black daughter in law.
“This is an outright lie!!”– Really? A Lie sondis….I think the above exchange is enough to show how much of a lie that really is.
“Of coarse you don’t care, you’re a double agent black woman, working for the white man, trying to convince black people to date with people on a black blog”–Yet I have yet to say or advocate in regards to dating white men. In fact I said clear as day (for those that can actually read) that white men are not the only choice. You would be more accurate in saying I advocate for people to date whoever the h*ll they want.
“Nice try DOUBLE AGENT black woman…to attempt to try and pit Adeen against me!”— I am not attempting to pit adeen against you, but you are the one trying to throw her under the bus. Not me. See your above quotes. You are too old for this type of delusion. If you were not doing such as you claimed then you would not need to mention her name at all. I know what Adeen believes so it was not necessary for any other reason than to throw fault elsewhere.
“This is typical of black women like you, to always try to make it where a black man is trying to attack another black woman on this blog, so you can garner support from all other black women!”—The funny part in all this is you would not know anything about me even if I typed out 12 comments of information on me. You are so blinded by your hatred and delusions that is is laughable. Typical of me? You don’t know me.
“There is another black women on this blog that did the very same thing!”—As I remember you did it to yourself. And it was the loving grace of other black women that made excuses for you then and here we are once again getting a show that the problem is none other than you.
“where am i throwing Adeen under the bus???”—Courtesy of you it was quoted.
“AGAIN, where?”—The real question is where isn’t it when irr is concerned? I have to ask…do you read your own posts?
“Nice try but again, you failed miserably.”—Could you not recycle my words? I find it disturbing.
“I back peddle on nothing i say! I may comment on other issues but that doesn’t mean that is the core of the message i bring, far as interracial dating, between white and black people. So feel free to look up my previous posts, you won’t find anything, incriminating.”—Lucky for me I don’t have to look far. I just need you to take off those rose color glasses to see exactly what it is you are actually saying.
“You’re going in on me AND idonis”—I believe his name is Adonis and I was not going in on either one of you. If I am not mistaken I disagreed with Adonis on one thing and he took that as a means to go in on
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@sondis my gawd man, i am a convicted felon, i just got out of jail about 10 days ago, and i have like 3 dui’s all kinds of problems, why is it you are so bitter, dude, i get ass, ok? so what. i aint better than nobody last year i was sleeping in a park on some real ish, i’m not subjugating nobody nor denying nobody anything because i like a black woman. what is it with you.
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Continued
me. As for you you give some women in here the false sense of being for the cause and then you switch and high tail on a drop. On top of that YOU and Adonis are not all men. Sorry.
“The oddity of this statement is that, you didn’t even argue the fact that you’re a black man hater, only the semantics of how i should have said you were a “man” hater.”—Why should I? You were wrong about what I said to begin with. So anything further you say you will still be wrong about as you are attempting to paint me as some black man hater, but hey use whatever you think will give you the high ground…I don’t care because again…you don’t know me.
“This proves and confirms, what i already knew about you, you secretly hate black men and worship with men, this is your sole purpose for being on this black blog, not to uplift and support black men but you uplift and support black women, bashing black men.”—Yet I did not speak out on this blog at all before recently. So still waiting for this massive tirade I am suppose to have pushing black women to bash black men.
“You as a black woman are so upset about the fact that a white man, doesn’t want you!”LOL who said I wanted a white man? I have had two white men in my life….I didn’t want them. 🙂 nice try though. But by your logic…wouldn’t I be more for black men and bashing white men instead?
“Its sad to see black women like you, be this bitter.”—Yet you are the bitter man with no women making low blows hoping you might hit something to make yourself feel better about your own lackings. 🙂
But as I notice with black men like you. It is easier to try and cut down a persons credibility with ridiculous bs than to actually see how messed up and wrong they really are.
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v8driver
“@sondis my gawd man, i am a convicted felon, i just got out of jail about 10 days ago, and i have like 3 dui’s all kinds of problems, why is it you are so bitter, dude, i get ass, ok? so what. i aint better than nobody last year i was sleeping in a park on some real ish, i’m not subjugating nobody nor denying nobody anything because i like a black woman. what is it with you.”
if you have to ask, then you just don’t understand.
I don’t expect for you to understand, anything a black man says, regarding his plight under white supremacy, because a black man in your same situation, will be 10 times worse off than you as a felon with dui’s and the like.
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@sondis i guess you feel i am using some type of advantage of white-skin privilege over black dudes to leverage myself or something that is what it seems like it’s unfair or something to you, well i go out and hustle 110% and do what i need to do to get money to handle my business and be a valuable partner to a woman , and well she’s gonna be black, sorry you feel that way (not really tbh at the end of the day bc that on you) but that’s what’s up.
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And let me be very clear on one more thing. Of those white men I was with I was engaged to one of them at some point in my life. I chose not to be with them…not because they were white, not because of this idea of black love and supporting the black cause, but because they were not right for me. Had they been right and what I wanted then I would have certainly married them, but they were not.
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Sharina:
“Yet you are the bitter man with no women making low blows hoping you might hit something to make yourself feel better about your own lackings.”
Who said i have no woman?
You know what they say about people that assume, they make an ass out of themselves and you have made a big one out of yourself for assuming you know my “lackings” and anything about my love life.
“As for you you give some women in here the false sense of being for the cause and then you switch and high tail on a drop”
This makes no sense, whatsoever. how am i switching and high tailing on a drop? huh? whaa?
You’re a typical down low, black man hater, its no surprise your man isn’t black and is probably a white-Hispanic, ala George Zimmerman.
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Jefe (D, ill answer after this) , if someone was going on about the negative things in Asia I mentioned, and didnt balance it with negative things Americans did, like if someone was going on and on about the bias in the Asian dynamic between Asians, I would mention america has prejudice and bias also, if the person was going on and on, never giving other world examples…I absolutly beleive in keeping perspective about the world when digging in on a country..I dont think its fair to go over american hemmoroids over and over and over , with no perspective of other countries…it isnt good to only talk about american racism over and over , making it seem like it is dispropotionaly huge in America and no where else…it would be lacking to not mention Brazil also…as a matter of fact people should definitly be comparing Brazil and the USA..people said a lot of stuff that the USA is the only country to do this or that, but it isnt true, Brazil has plenty of those things too, and people start thinking its only the USA from only talking about that
Jefe, I agree, Kiwi has been more aggresive about it than you, but, you defended Kiwi’s stare at interracial asian women and white men, and then made that statement
Ive been dealing with attemted physical intimidations about dating black women from a long time ago, from all sides, and all the time, the inevitable stink stares that could come from all sides…this is very real and serious for me, I dont put up with it and have had to prepare to physically defend myself…from all sides…I dont play with this…someone better be prepared for a bristling defence if they are going to bring that around me…
Obviously, you or Kiwi arnt going to see me with an Asian woman anytime soon, so my hostility is at your implication than actualy personaly at you, its at the concept that anyone might give me and my date a stink stare just because Im white with someone who isnt…and I think its veryimportant to give that implication a very powerful message that it is unwelcome around me and I am prepared to deal with it on any leval…my will at defending the right for me to be with my black mate , or an asian date if i was single , or any background or color,is much stronger than a flawed not well thought out political agenda about anti interracial dating…I mean how deep is anyone really committed to fighting for that agenda? I dont think its as deep as my will to defend my right to date who I please, especialy since all my dating life I have interracialy dated
You also brought up another of those stupid fables like Im hiding behind my POC wife and son…not good to bring that out on me, another flawed, inmy case, argument to use against me…seriously, seeing the opinions , the lack of understanding of Afro diasporic cultures, I have no doubts, I can look out for my wife and son’s interests better than anyone on here…and serously and with all due respect to you and Kiwi, you dont understand afro diasporic cultures, the real struggles, the histories and how they tie together..you do understand white racism and the political angles
And dam it, i do respect you both bringing in the Asian story and histories, and your experiances…just dont stare at me disgruntled if you see me dating an Asian woman
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@ Sondis
“You know what they say about people that assume, they make an ass out of themselves and you have made a big one out of yourself for assuming you know my “lackings” and anything about my love life.”—I guess that saying has some level of truth seeing as your post was nothing more than assumptions of me. 🙂
“This makes no sense, whatsoever. how am i switching and high tailing on a drop? huh? whaa?”—Oh it makes plenty of sense but a snake with slither out of any situation.
“ou’re a typical down low, black man hater, its no surprise your man isn’t black and is probably a white-Hispanic, ala George Zimmerman.”—More assumptions. What was that saying you just used about assumptions? 🙂 And as I have said several times on this blog…my husband identifies as black Hispanic.
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@ Legion
Oh man does that mean I did not say it quite as much as I think? lol
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D…exactly what Im saying…black Americans went about their political Civil Rights Movement , differantly than black Brazilians
And yes, the American diologue on race is hightened and unique and powerful , and , exactly because of that, sometimes exacts a price , an emotional tax…and, even with the flaws, my gosh, look at the results of that hard struggle, inspite of racism and colorism, there is black economic power and upward movement and visible examples of individual successes
But, I wouldnt count out Brazil by anymeans and the struggle the black Brazilians have had , and how they have overcome obstacles…brazil had Quilimbos (sp?) , communities of run away slaves, since the 16 hundreds, they had slave revolts, including the black muslim “mare” revolt in Salvador, there were armed confrontations over black cultures “afoxe” and “condomble” in Salvador in the early 19 hundreds, Afro Brazilian culture is extremly powerful and much more in touch with its African roots than black American culture…so is the cooking…Brazil may apear to not be doing it by American standards, then again, Brazilian people relate to each other much differantly than Americans…to expect Brazilians to act it out like americans would be the mistake…and respect so much how black Brazilians dont have political agendas deviding people and eliminating them from their midst…but, the other political agendas in the country, on the far left, will get mandaty, and devisive…interesting, I consider myself on the left…but flunk the grade for the far left
I disagree the Black American Civil Rights Movement was as much as a cultural lift than it really was a political lift…people politicly lifted themselves up…there were cultural acrutements like the natural, but james Brown was happening all ready and truth be told, the highest leval of black American music ever , was going on under the nose of white kids and black kids and they all missed it big time…the groups of Miles Davis and John Coltrane were uncovering some of the most profound laws of music genius, coming from a serious Afro diasporic tip and foundation, yet using the profound depth of modern European harmony and Indian drone tecniques and Cuban and Brazilian influened grooves next to deep Afro American jazz bebop modern jazz swing
Not only that, some of the agendas actualy threw black american culture under the bus, instead of focusing on the intent of the racism of the whites drooling over the culture…culture was buried, deep culture ignored…sorry, I dont think it was culture, but badly needed political lift…new political outlooks, heads, agendas…somme agendas were bad..we can correct them now…?
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I actualy have to say, there was great music representing the era of more black awareness….its just that another black American culture was ignored and thrown under the bus…people can think “out with the old and in with the new”..but what a value to throw out…why throw out any treasure
I meant to say “I respect so much how Brazil..” I wouldnt command it
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@ B.R.
>”but what a value to throw out…why throw out any treasure”<
Dr. Umar Ifatunde said it best…
"The reason why Tyler Perry is so important to the American social order, and the reason why gangsta rap is so important to the American social order is because it helps paint the Black Man as a useless animal."
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADZl5fwoAl4&feature=share)
Wise Intelligent of the rap group Poor Righteous Teachers said it pretty good as well…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV4mhxpaEmk)
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@ Sharina
The irony about the assumptions made me howl like a lunatic. Those that were made about you were bizarrely specific eh? LOL. If I said my hubby is Hispanic(which he is), I wonder how long it would take before I’m labeled a “sellout” and “double agent” just because I didn’t hyphenate a color to this description?
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Hey Aba that “like” widget is making the page jitter like crazy, seems like its constantly loading something.
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@B. R.
Well, tap dancing was abandoned because of its association with minstrels which we generally found demeaning. Its kind of been resurrected as Stomping though. Aside from that, I wouldn’t say that we threw this or that musical tradition under the bus, so much as we developed different methods of musical expression.
I respect them too and hope for great things of them in the future. It’s amazing that their older traditions haven’t been all but destroyed by White racism and the New Negro. But, what I was saying is that only recently is there an Afro-Brazilian consciousness that even remotely resembles ours, and it will turn out to be very different than ours by the end of the 21st century.
As an aside, lately it seems that Afro-Americans are adopting aspects of Caribbean, Brazilian, and West African cultures.
I think that the Civil Rights Movement in the 50s and 60s was the culmination of one hundred years of cultural and political development. Personally, I don’t think one should compartmentalize culture and politics. For one, MLK was rooted in the Southern Black Church, an institution that, much like the secular Black scholars of the North, contributes immensely to our culture and politics.
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“v8driver
@sondis my gawd man, i am a convicted felon, i just got out of jail about 10 days ago, and i have like 3 dui’s all kinds of problems, why is it you are so bitter, dude, i get ass, ok? so what. i aint better than nobody last year i was sleeping in a park on some real ish, i’m not subjugating nobody nor denying nobody anything because i like a black woman. what is it with you.”
Well boo hoo for you, a white man that’s playing victim, how conservative of you…Whenever i see or hear a white man complain about being caught up in the “justice system” i can’t help but you say….YOU HAVE NO DAMN EXCUSE!
Being a white man, you are favored and privileged at every turn, so for you to mess up after getting so many second chances, where as black men, NEVER GET SECOND CHANCES,WE MAKE A MISTAKE ONCE, WE HAVE A FELONY ON OUR RECORD, you have no excuse to be a failure at life, being everything is handed to your ass on a silver platter!
This is a perfect example of how, white men have an agenda, when it comes to black women.
The fact that this white man has felonies and just got out of prison and has a alcohol problem, shows his agenda for dating black women, being that NO WHITE WOMEN WANT HIM AND WOULD JUDGE HIM BASED ON HIS CRIMINAL HISTORY!
So he SETTLES for black women and has convinced himself, that he LOVES to date black women, when in actuality, it has more to do with his social circumstances, that doesn’t allow for him to date a white woman, so he feels a need to pander to black women, being he thinks they are the lowest of women on the totem pole, so a black women should date him, a lowly white man that is down on his luck and has a hard life, therefore she would date him, being he’s white and uses his whiteness under white supremacy, to ensnare black women into thinking, he “loves” them.
This is just one example, i just happen to pick on this one in particular.
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Hmm.
I for one would love to read v8driver’s comments where he mentions that no white women would have him as a covicted felon, and that’s the reason he “SETTLES” for BW (because, of course, it couldn’t be anything but ‘settling’ when it comes to BW, aka “the lowest of women on the totem pole”, according to at least one BM commenter anyway).
Or could all this ‘settling for BW’ stuff be a simple case of projection by the commenter whose actually mentions it in the first place?!
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@sondis i reckon i drew you out, that’s what i was going for. thanks for actually not dancing around the issue.
Actually I was tangentially making a rude ad hominem based on my supposition your angst comes from the lack of womenly contact, (however you say that is not so), as in stating that i am dbr and not only that but short so how does white bull do it… Sorry you missed that one, don’t worry about it.
this isn’t the first time you have unloaded on me — indirectly — thank gawd you are actually stepping up, i respect that but not the sideways comments, you remind me of some other folks just can’t see someone else HAVE something or BE HAPPY.
this whole dramatic flair about how “i’m settling” is a fallacy that you have created in your own mind. I still have requests out for information from other posters about WHY me being attracted to black women is RACIST, but let me just say i love dark chocolate complected women, with WHATEVER type or even NO hair, i love they way the look and talk and smell and everything else.
you can sit in your unhappy corner all day and pout, (I’m not goin to say it), dude, that’s ok, just you project some advanced stuff out there without data to back it up.
ps i am not down on my luck at all, i work, and i’m fine, last year i was down on my luck, and WHY would a black girl choose ME in the HOOD? Because I’m nice and smart and I work, and always have some money (not too much, don’t get it twisted), and I don’t sling, and don’t hurt people as a rule, so leaving out the OTHER reasons like what ADONIS hinted at etc., plus, wait for it… I’M NOT BORING!!!
WHY don’t you say what’s really there, you feel white men have raped and pillaged their way to absolute world domination and it makes you want to puke that one is out on the town with a black woman. That would be DIS-disingenuous(sp?). That’s what I think and so you have said, and believe it or not I understand a lot about a lot of things (even here!!!), I am just trying to learn where your passive aggressive slow-smoldering vitriolic reaction to me came from, personally, not hiding behind grand sweeping theories and rhetoric.
-tc
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v8driver:
I don’t have anything against you, personally. When i speak about white people or white men, i always say, “The majority” and not ALL of white folks.
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@ Gen
I know right?! LOL
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I would like to share an experience i had, Saturday when i had went out to a bar, upstairs was another bar with a open space for a dance floor with a DJ playing music.
I watched this groups of 3 beautiful black sista’s dancing by themselves and 2 white men, were circling them like sharks, trying to get their attention as to dance with them. I watched as these 3 black females, continued to ignore the two while males, not paying them a bit of mind. They weren’t being rude or mean to the white men, they were just minding their business and having a good time.
I was very curious when i first saw the scenario play out as i wanted to see, what the 3 black females would do, when approached by these two white men.
The white men were undaunted, (they were drunk, being they would not have tried to approach and dance with these black females, sober ) The racial makeup of the bar was very mixed with white,black and Latino.
Seeing these 3 black women, ignore these white men, that ordinarily wouldn’t give them the time of day in any other setting, put a smile on my face. ^_^
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@sondis i get it.
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i’m extremely rude when under the influence of alcohol,ask abagond, he has shielded you all from most of my drunkin postings here!!! it also makes me prone to blacking out and violence i’m not supposed to drink under any circumstances, besides my medical reasons to not drink which are physical and legitimate, so why do i? oh well… that’s another thread. But also, I find in females it can awaken rage as well, put together two drunkin alphas *whee* here come the cops!
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i got at least a few friends all they want to do is fight! especially crazy mike, he’s always knocking me onto the ground
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eh i’m too far gone, i black out and people are usually afraid to tell me what happened, i can’t have more than a couple shots of hard alcohol or it is into serious ‘risky’ territory
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Peanut:
Yeah, I’m not just saying, “they were beautiful” as black women but they were drop dead. It even seemed, that the two men were more drawn to one of the girls, more than the other two. She happened to be light skinned, slim and short and very attractive and had long, wavy blonde hair down here back.
“sondis,
“why didn’t you go over and try to dance wit them?”
Because, i came with a lady, i was entertaining.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZn2747CITY)
D, please tell me if there is anything demeaning or related to minstrel in here
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well. it wasn’t uncommon to see, black men and white women, dancing together.
I also saw a young black broth, dancing in the corner with a white female, i studied them for a few minutes and it seemed like they didn’t want to dance on the dance floor, where everyone could see them. I felt it was more on the white females side more so.
I also saw a young black kid and girl, dancing with each other, ( very crude i might add) then as i was talking, i looked over and saw them both, making out and their friends kept pointing over at them, giggling and laughing ( about 4 other white girls ), acting very surprised to see them kissing the way they were, like they weren’t even in a relationship, just friends that came together at a bar.
I just shook my head… -_-
P.S. The lady i came with, we were talking about everything we saw and when she went to use the ladies room, one of the white girls, kept looking over at me as i was dancing to the music. I kept saying to myself, I’m not in the least, interested in you.
They didn’t come over, being they saw i came with someone but I’m sure if i was there by myself or some of my guy friends, they would have been dancing all around and in front of me as to get my attention.
These were very young girls by the way and the black kid as well.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQQlVg6FEzM)
D, a comment on tap is in moderation, look at this incredible Brazilian folkloric group and the parralel dancing that is like tap…there are incredilble ties in Afro diasporic cultures, and it is a huge rush and inner fullfillment to make the connections
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Thank you Deb, sometimes I wonder about people love is not for weaklings, less for the timid and never for cowards. Love is for the Don Quixote windmills be dimmed.
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Two comments on tap in moderation, D, maybe when this post is up they will be up..
I think regulating tap to minstrel shows and saying its demeaning is selling it way short…there is so much depth in tap..it was thrown under the bus by people who didnt give it value…
this wasnt about moving on to new things, Miles and coltrane were above the heads of most people…and you have to see the ken Burns documentry on jazz, it was very specific about how Armstrong was demeaned, thank god for Branford and Wynton for setting the record straight…no, D, it wasnt about just moving on to new styles at all, it was serious demeaning and dissmissing culture
While traditional Brazilian culture is more in touch with its African roots, what is happening now is it is slowly being sluffed off to the side, or manipulated by the corps down there to be a watered down style..it is frightening, and what ive been talking about, how these deep treasures get dissmissed, buried and destroyed
Yes, the black american church was and is a fonte of one kind of black American culture, and has produced incredible singers, but, it is a pinched version, of the real deal…in brazil, as in cuba and haiti, they have Candomble, Voo Doo, and Santera, which are direct links to the cultures in Africa where the slaves came from…they had to hide the dieties behind Catholic Saints, and the cerimomies use various African oriented beats with names in Yoroba, and there is drumming , dancing and in the process posecion by the dieties
in the black American church, in the slave days, they took the drums away, forced them to practice Christianity, and, out of that, you know that there are moments in the black church where someone can “get the feeling’, and actualy go into a kind of posecion..this is a very skimpy version of the Candomble dancing and drumming
the black american church was in direct odds with jazz, and frowned on it..the black american church can only go so far and ultimitly will stymie the the true force and nature of the more powerful Afro diasporic cultures
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youtubes go into moderation, even with parenthasis…????
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“Peanut
@ sondis,
so to make my point, then yes…black women are more loyal you saw it with your own eyes.”
Just because three young black women, were not interested in dancing with those particular white men, doesn’t translate into black women, being loyal to black men.
This doesn’t prove anything, other than the fact that these, particular young black women, wasn’t interested in these white men. they were in their early 20’s late teens.
So it could have easily been, the fact that not only were they way too old for these young black women, they were dorky and couldn’t even dance!! hahah me and my lady friend was laughing and making snide remarks on their lack of dancing skills.
The white men were older, at least in their late 20’s to early 30’s at best.
which is typical of OLDER, white men to approach very YOUNG, black women for sex.
So yeah, this is a very poor attempt at you trying to prove your point by using this scenario…better luck next time.
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Now that i remember, one of the white men, was BALD!! i was looking at both of them and i saw one of the white guys was balding! lol
So you’re reading way to much into it and trying to make something out of it to fit your, agenda.
I am 100% positive it had nothing to do with loyalty for black men, that lead these black women to give those two white men, the cold shoulder.
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@BR,
I have never had any problem with anyone dating, marrying or otherwise with anyone else. My thought experiment about the idea of Asian men lynching white men for dating “their” women was just to point out how ridiculous (or even mean) it is.
But, despite how ridiculous it is, it was a very real concern for non-white men who dated or married white women pre-Loving v. Virginia. My mother grew up in heart of KKK country and it was not until when I was older did I understand why my father could never go to my mother’s hometown. He came for the first time in 1968.
I do not begrudge any “white” person who wants to date or marry non-whites / POC. But I cannot accept anyone using the “I’m not racist because my wife/husband/gf/bf is {non-white background}.” Not that I ever said it applied to you. But that fact alone does not exonerate anyone from blatant racist behavior.
Likewise, being bi-racial or multiracial would not exonerate one either.
I still think your mention of the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution is a derailment. I really don’t think readers need those comments to “put things in perspective”. It is akin to using the Native American genocide as a means to put the Nazi holocaust into perspective.
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@Sondis
I was trying to ignore you but…
Please lay of the T. Sotomayor videos. Your comments on this thread have not been CONSTRUCTIVE. I need to reread the Code Book. I missed the chapter that says black women are THE PROBLEM.
Therapy is for everyone even you.
Believe it or not I say this with love,
The Alchemist
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Kiwi , with your uptight attitude I dont care what you think,,
No, Ill say it again , stepping back and taking perspective after a thousand negative posts on America , is very desirable, I live with lets make America the boogey man , and never look at the big picture..
Jefe , we just have to agree to disagree , your joke , or , thought experiment was in bad taste
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Jefe, your life was traumatised, I can see how you could think like that ,but, its funny, you and Kiwi talk about getting intimidated by white men,and imply its the white race, I say I got intimidated by black men, but dont imply that means black people do that or like it represents black people
There is absolutly no balance what só ever…no, its very desirable to step back and take perspective against you alls constant negative flow
Educate yourselves to some black American culture, and. Afro Brazilian culture with the clips I brought in, because you both are ignorant of that..you could use a little knowledge on that
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I grew up in or adjacent to majority black American areas – Anacostia, DC and nearby PG County, MD. and joined the majority African-American clubs in school. I felt alienated by the white only groups. I actually have studied quite a bit of African-American history and culture to understand about the environment I grew up in. You could probably learn more about African-American history and culture yourself too, as could many African-Americans themselves. I am sure that Abagond is learning as he is going along, as well as his readers.
You think there is no balance by bringing up items about Asian-American history because it is completely omitted from our general education. So bringing up little tidbits probably feels like an inundation. Modern Chinese history from the 1950s-70s is an interesting subject in its own right — but it is very obtuse to use that to understand Asian-American history. As I said, do we use the Native American genocide to put to the Nazi holocaust in perspective, or even the current Han vilification of Tibetans and Uyghurs? It doesn’t really make sense.
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In the UK 50% of Afro Caribbean men marry White women, and 35% of Afro Caribbean women marry White men; I wonder if the African American community will end up going in the same way?
Personally, I’m not against interracial relationships/marriages. I’m the product of one and I’ve had just as many White boyfriends as Black. The only thing that I find disturbing is the rate at which many in the Western African diaspora continually spout this “race doesn’t matter” philosophy, to justify their unwillingness to value the worth of the nuclear Black family unit, in order to cross over, when the truth is, the vast majority of other races don’t feel this way. Coming from a non Black parent, and being hearing non Black family members talk, I can assure you many Indians, Whites, and Irish know full well the importance of staying with their own. In fact, I have only ever heard Blacks champion being outside of their race.
I was thinking about the Jacksons the other day. They’re an African American dynasty, they worked their way out of poverty, and achieved the kind of American upper middle class 1% success that is most unusual, especially during “their day.” But since most of the brothers and sisters, (if not all), have married out, all that accumulated wealth will eventually be dispersed into a community that is not their own. Look at the worth of Michael’s estate; yet we know those are White children.
As I said, I don’t have any problem with interracial marriages, none whatsoever, when they are based on love, but judging by the demographics who do it the most, (those who have been directly impacted by colonialism/White supremacy), I think that’s quite telling. It’s obvious that it often has nothing to do with love.
But when all is said and done, you must live your life. I’d never tell anyone who has tried to find their mate in their own for a while, and then comes across their ideal outside of their race, to pass it up. Life is too short for that.
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Sometimes stuff that takes place in other countries does help you to understand your own. What I know about South Africa, Israel, the Dominican Republic, Brazil, New Zealand, etc, helps me to understand the U.S. But the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution in China hardly fall into that class, at least not when it comes to American racism. They do not add “perspective”. They are derailments. At best they are used to say, “White Americans are not uniquely evil” – as if we did not already know that, as if anyone had said otherwise.
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OFF TOPIC: tap dancing.
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ALL YouTubes go to moderation because not everyone adds the parentheses. Putting in the parentheses yourself will make it go through moderation faster.
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Well, that is your opinion, and I dont agree with it..just like I dont agree with just looking at uSDA drone bombing of the Taliban and not say anything of the taliban massacers and poisoning of children
I dont buy your fables aproach to disscussing things…Jefe brings up 100,000 Chinese missing in Iowa and wants to imply its genicide, by the way , I caught jefe in two errors in stuff about Brazil, that means i should be skepticle of just anything coming down the pike, and if he wants to imply that was a mass extermination, he should get shown what a real mass extermination looks like in our lifetime
As far as saying tap dancing is off topic, well, its your blog, so i wont go against that, but the fact you cant tie it in with a flawed agenda against interracial relationships, coming from some activists in the late 60’s, who put out the flawed aganda against tap dancing shows your own limited perspective, Abagond
And i dont like your assumptions in your thread that its an argument that interracial relationships cure racism or mixed kids are more beautiful…it isnt any argument by people in interracial relationships on here or from mixed kids…
and shame on you for letting the slander go on and the dragging through the mud of some of the stauncest anti racists on this blog
you come up short on this one , abagond..but, yeah i wont talk about tap dancing on here anymore
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You know, you have stated your supposed neutrality about interracial relationships with white people involved, abagond, but I trust your deep inner feelings on it as far as I could throw a bus handcuffed
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the whole black activist position against interracial relationships was under the unbrella of the larger activist position that white people should be eliminated from the movement…which was in no way a monolithic black position, there was the MLK versus Malcolm X debates, this was an activist position a certain factions in the movement
Back then I could understand that black people needed their space to vent indignation and anger at white attitudes, that would upset many of the white people in the movement at that time…white people had died in the movement, and its interesting to note that blacks and jewish people were linked together in the struggle back in the 30’s 40’s and 50’s,but after certain activist positions and tying in international politics with Israel and Palistine, it sure shifted fast, yet jewish people were slandered way more than Asians by white racists…
As a matter of fact , a movie ran all the time on tv back in the early 60’s,”From Here To Eternity” that went into the ugly truth of japanese internment in World War 2, it sure impressedm me as a young person back then and the distaste for white racism against Asians…there were plenty of white people who were willing to look at that as very wrong…
but , very perplexing this political activist movement with an agenda against interracial dating with white people, comes down to haunt the black movement into today
Just like Jim Crow comes down to haunt us today…
I mean in all seriousness, Abagond, you think thread after thread with some ofnthe largest comment sections about this anti interracial sex issues, with so much bitter in fighting and slandering, is healthy at all?
Its pathetic
and why I will say fuk anyone of any color looking over my shoulder disgruntled if I am dating someone of their background , or especialy the white racist calling me a race traitor…its bullsh!t..at that point, the political agenda stepped over the line
These threads give me ample cause to have a powerful set of defences in place
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Yeah, Legion, he said…and Im saying, based on the real low leval,of disscusion about interracial sex, how it goes on and on and how you see the staunchest fighters against white racism , get slandered and dragged through the mud, i dont trust abagonds inner secret feelings about interracial sex with white people..you know, I agree with reams of things abagond writes, but , hades, hes Catholic and against abortion, its not like I dont have things I can disagree with Abagond about
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Abagond
I have a comment in moderation since yesterday. I know why but I only quoted another.
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VERY nice recap of several threads of thought. Sweet work…
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And, I find it just incredible , that in the middle of this mud slinging, crap psycho analising, and steryotyping, when I try to take it do a more in depth discusion, on the origins of this flawed political agenda, by pointing out other flawed polítil agendas, which is why this one is flawed, too, that happened at that time, it becomes off topic..yeah, better to keep it in the gutter..
Yeah, Abagond, I dont trust your secret inner feelings on interracial sex with white people
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Ebony,
“But since most of the brothers and sisters, (if not all), have married out, all that accumulated wealth will eventually be dispersed into a community that is not their own. ”
The Jackson’s like most affluent and middle class black people aren’t apart of “black communities”. Most of the money in black communities returns to the white community without interracial marriage.
The problem you are talking about has nothing to do with interracial marriage and everything to do with racism, including the behavior you describe as valuable, marriage as financial transaction to keep your wealth out of the hands of “other” people.
to oppose interracial marriage because money might go to those “other” people who happen to be your sons and daughters sounds very racist to me.
But I agree that other races find racism more valuable than black people do.
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@ Sondis @ Sharina: Comments deleted for using insulting language.
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@ B. R.
We can continue our discussion in the Open Thread if you like.
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@Solesearch
Well you’ve just alienated about half the Black folks in America, including yours truly. Nice going.
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@ Ebony, the only reason it is seemingly high on your side of the pond is because the African population is very, very low. Last i checked it was hovering around 1-2%. Populations of Africans that small will be “granted” little or no restrictions to chose where they live, work or go to school–the most logical conclusion is that we will be “allowed” to marry where we spend the majority of our time.
In the U.S., the Black population is larger, although not nearly so to supersede the white population–therefore, we are more likely to live in “ghettos”, attend inferior public schools, so that the majority of us has little chance of being around whites and gaining access to “their” resources through marriage.
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Jefe , you have given no indication that you understand black culture at all, you were probably studying black American political trajectory, you are the one saying black Americans have weak culture…?
Só you went to school with black people gives you credibility? Does interracial sex mean a person cant be racist?
No, bringing up historicl Asian American history does not have the effect you say, seeing how you can make mistakes in your research does affect me
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and , Jefe , I said this before , so let me put in caps I DONT AGREE WITH YOU KIWI AND ABAGOND THAT I CANT USE THE 20 MILLION EXTERMINATED IN THE RED CULTURAL REVOLUTION, AND I HAVE LAID OUT MY REASONS VERY CLEARLY AND I THINK THEY ARE COMPELLING REASONS, I LIVE WITH PEOPLE WHO PILE ON ALL DAY HOW BAD AMERICA WAS IN THE COLD WAR AND THEY CANT EVEN LOOK AT THE WHOLE TRUTH, SO , YOUR RATIONALISATIONS AND FABLE CONTEXTS ARE NOT CONVINCING TO ME AT ALL….
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@Soulsearch
I don’t just mean wealth. I’m talking about the concept of building strong nuclear Black families that start with a Black bride and groom; Black owned businesses, Black middle class neighborhoods, Black schools, and getting out of epidemics like 70% of African American children being born out of wedlock, poverty, etc. The idea of building for yourself during your school years, and then being about your family when your marriage years come around, the idea of leaving a legacy of pride, putting down roots, and the beauty of Black love, for your children; being about your community, and in turn, your descendants.
To be honest, I don’t think that Whites, Indians, and Middle Easterners who embrace this concept, are racist, I would call it pride. The reason why White supremacy has been allowed to succeed for such a long period of time is because they call it pride, and we call it racism, and instead, will fight for the right to assimilate.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree here, as I can’t understand opposition to this position by Blacks, although I have tried.
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(D, I moved our disscusion to open thread, it threatons to get too close to the truth over here, and its better to keep here in the gutter)
you know, Ive heard arguments on here that people shouldnt have interracial sex with white people because:
they are the oppresor
they raped POC
white people owned slaves
they committed genocides and have only brought death and destruction on the world
white people are trying to drive black people and Asian people apart
There are other rationalisations people have said ,but those above and others, just keep a constant din in the background that white people , and especialy america, are the worst people and america the worst place in the world
Im not even saying this is your position, Jefe, but you have done nothing to counter the balance…and hades yes, there needs to be occaisional balance ,and calibration to the whole truth in this world about man’s inhumanity to man…you know racism does fall into that catagory, “man’s inhumanity to man”, in that context you are god dam real other examples of man’s inhumanity to man can be brought up
by the way, you cant learn about real black culture in school, they dont even teach jazz right..you got to be kidding, i mean just enlighten me to what you know about black culture, take it to the open thread…yiu opened your mouth about it, now back it up
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Thanks Peanut.
@ phoebeprunelleo
@ Ebony, the only reason it is seemingly high on your side of the pond is because the African population is very, very low. Last i checked it was hovering around 1-2%. Populations of Africans that small will be “granted” little or no restrictions to chose where they live, work or go to school–the most logical conclusion is that we will be “allowed” to marry where we spend the majority of our time.
In the U.S., the Black population is larger, although not nearly so to supersede the white population–therefore, we are more likely to live in “ghettos”, attend inferior public schools, so that the majority of us has little chance of being around whites and gaining access to “their” resources through marriage.
…………………………………………………….
You might wanna come check over here, because council estates (our version of your government housing projects) are riddled with Blacks, over here. We have very few representations on TV, the jails are filled with Black men and women, gun and knife crime has been an epidemic, out of wedlock births… pretty much everything that plagues you plagues us 100 times worse, because we are such a small population and we have never has a major Black pride movement like you have. We are not let in because racism doesn’t exist, we go in because it does.
Do you know the word for dark skin over here? Blick. (Who do you think says this? It’s not White people.) Do you know the importance of being mixed race and light skinned? Do you know that most Africans marry their own, while those of the Caribbean community, who have been here longer, and have become victims of living in the midst of so much White supremacy, so much so, that it is shameful to have a dark skinned child. Trust me, interracial marriage over here is not due to peace and progressiveness.
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*and we have never has a major Black pride movement
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You guys have it worse over there because racism isn’t usually much more overt and straight forwards. But… you guys have it much easier than we do in many ways because you actually exist. Food for thought.
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D,
“Well you’ve just alienated about half the Black folks in America, including yours truly. Nice going.”
I couldn’t care less about alienating you or anyone else. I am interested in why you think my statement is wrong. The Jackson’s and most wealthy blacks don’t live in black communities. Abagond even said as much in this post.
“That could well be true, but not necessarily because of any secret desire: as Michelle Obama found out, most highly successful blacks live in an all-white world and become cut off from other blacks.”
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Ebony,
“To be honest, I don’t think that Whites, Indians, and Middle Easterners who embrace this concept, are racist, I would call it pride. The reason why White supremacy has been allowed to succeed for such a long period of time is because they call it pride, and we call it racism, and instead, will fight for the right to assimilate.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree here, as I can’t understand opposition to this position by Blacks, although I have tried.”
And there it is.
Ebony, I don’t think interracial marriage is a barrier to black people owning businesses, having children within a marriage (obviously), or putting down roots. I think white people’s “pride” is the barrier. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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@ B.R.
Maybe I am a bit thick. What does tap dancing have to do with interracial relationships? Why should it be on topic?
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abagond,
“At best they are used to say, “White Americans are not uniquely evil” – as if we did not already know that, as if anyone had said otherwise.”
People have said otherwise.
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@Solesearch
I always respect it whenever people can respectfully agree to disagree. Thank-you, I appreciate it.
I will just say this; if African Americans who have worked into the middle class are marrying out the most (particularly AA men), and are becoming disconnected with a sense of community and Black legacy, their children are also likely to be disconnected, marry out, and at that point the family will almost be (or look), White. It cannot be a coincidence that Asian women and Black men marry out the most, and according to White supremacist ideals of femininity and masculinity, which their choices usually match. (General statement, and not a reflection of any/every AW/WM or AAM/WW couples). But, it is very obvious.
You can’t raise a strong nuclear Black family with a White partner. And as I understand it, from the statistics, there are no longer enough Asian women for Asian men, and there’s certainly not enough AA men for AA women, the latter community has already had a historic amount of problems without this addition being added to the plate. It’s a problem.
White pride will never end, Black pride is obviously dead. We all seem to fight for the right to go White,or we’re so consumed with attacking eachother, (BM vs. BW or the other way around). So we should get used to staying on the bottom, and stop complaining about it, because we are very responsible for our continued problems and we are clearly not about changing it.
It’s very sad.
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My family is middle class, but we live in a multi-racial development with Latinos, immigrants, and other Afro-Americans. We still have connections with other Black people through family, friends, and church. My mother and father are pretty radical, and in case you haven’t noticed, we vote in the shared common interest of other African Americans, especially poor African Americans, most of the time. My parents both grew up in Black neighborhoods, I attend an HBCU, and even my little sister is finding her roots.
Is Barack Obama really a good example? He wasn’t cut off from other African Americans because he was never connected to us in the first place.
In short, your are confusing Race with Ethnicity. Barack is Black, because society treats him that way, but he is neither African-American nor a part of the [2nd] African Diaspora. Barack and I both enjoyed class privileges, but I doubt he received the oral histories like I did via my family. Why would he? His history is not Our history, because his ancestors were neither enslaved nor subject to the vicious and violent White Supremacy of the 20th century. (This isn’t to say Obama is a Trojan Horse or some non-sense, but that there is a great diversity of histories and culture amongst so-called “Blacks”, which is why I don’t like the word; it implies that there is some kind of global racial, cultural, and historical monolith.)
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So in order to have black pride you have to marry a black man?
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@Ebonymonroe
” So we should get used to staying on the bottom, and stop complaining about it, because we are very responsible for our continued problems and we are clearly not about changing it.”—No one should ever get used to being at the bottom and I don’t believe that marrying black is the only way to have black pride or change the black situation.
That falls in line with the ‘you’re not black enough” line of thinking, but like solesearch I will simply have to agree to disagree.
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@EbonySearch:
No, I don’t believe the IR rates will ever be like Englands over here because we have a much larger black population here in the US and I believe also social progression here in the US so the mentality is different. Blacks have been here since America’s inception and we feel very much a part of the US despite racism.
It’s interesting that you mention the Jackson family. I, like Janet Jackson, like other men of color, (Latino, arab and other) however its strange how 99% of the kids do not have black kids. Atleast 2 or 2 could have. Especially Micheal Jacksons kids, none are even black. so weird. I think though that that family is just SCREWED UP!. Most black families are not like that. For most black families, I don’t believe extreme interracial dating and no black kids or kids that even look black are even the norm.
I feel bad for british blacks, I have been there before and w/out affirmative action/other civil rights laws I experienced much more discrimination over there than I’ve ever experienced in the US because there were no laws saying they have to hire blacks or the government would check into their hiring practices. I also noticed every other black male had a white female in their car, to be fair, I also noticed many black women with white men. Most importantly, I saw so many ghetto looking blacks, it was ashame. I honestly don’t think anything is wrong with IR dating as long as the majority of the group are marrying their own race.
What’s strange about in Europe is that while here in the US, Asians and others date out more than blacks, in Europe, Asians and others are not dating OUT( with whites) as much as Blacks are. The sad thing is that British society to me, particularly in terms of jobs and social advancements is still ANTI-BLACK despite so much IR dating.
————————————————————————————
RE::
In the UK 50% of Afro Caribbean men marry White women, and 35% of Afro Caribbean women marry White men; I wonder if the African American community will end up going in the same way?
Personally, I’m not against interracial relationships/marriages. I’m the product of one and I’ve had just as many White boyfriends as Black. The only thing that I find disturbing is the rate at which many in the Western African diaspora continually spout this “race doesn’t matter” philosophy, to justify their unwillingness to value the worth of the nuclear Black family unit, in order to cross over, when the truth is, the vast majority of other races don’t feel this way. Coming from a non Black parent, and being hearing non Black family members talk, I can assure you many Indians, Whites, and Irish know full well the importance of staying with their own. In fact, I have only ever heard Blacks champion being outside of their race.
I was thinking about the Jacksons the other day. They’re an African American dynasty, they worked their way out of poverty, and achieved the kind of American upper middle class 1% success that is most unusual, especially during “their day.” But since most of the brothers and sisters, (if not all), have married out, all that accumulated wealth will eventually be dispersed into a community that is not their own. Look at the worth of Michael’s estate; yet we know those are White children.
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What’s sad about this topic is the divisiveness. Black women posters keep dogging out black men and totally IGNORE The fact that many Black WOMEN also prefer white men or pretend white men are saviors and also dog out black men. Some of the black mens posts are focused on Black women.
It’s sad because if you open your eyes, you will see both black men AND black women are doing the dogging out of the opposite sex when it comes to blacks.
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@Solesearch
Feel free to alienate whomever you like; I’m too old and too wise to let anyone make me doubt my Negritude. However keep in mind that shunning one another across class lines will only make us weaker spiritually, politically, and economically. Uplift would be that much harder.
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@Alicia
“I think though that that family is just SCREWED UP!.”—Bingo!
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@ Solesearch
Who on this thread has said that only white people are evil?
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@ B.R.
Which black activists from the 1960s were against interracial relationships?
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@Jefe
Good old Godwin’s Law. You may want to check this out:
http://www.bluecorncomics.com/hitler.htm
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@ B.R.
White racism is a huge reason someone might not want to marry a white person. A completely legitimate one. But what you and Asplund seem to do is play down that racism and then call those who have reservations about interracial relationships racists. Cool trick.
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@ Alicia
“Some of the black mens posts are focused on Black women.”—In a good way or a bad way
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@ B. R.
The Cultural Revolution argument is idiotic. Sure, whites are not the only evil people in the world. But we are talking about interracial relationships. In that case a white person’s racism does matter. Maybe it is not bad enough, maybe it is not their worst quality, but it has to be taken into account by any person of colour. So does one’s own internalized racism.
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Go back and review my post to you Ebony, and look at the wording.
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I second what you said here Abagond. This is my overall problem with the Western African Diaspora (I’m talking in general); continuing to act as though the idea of wanting a Black partner is racist. I once heard a White man, after being criticised for prefering White women, say he won’t have a people pulling the race card, just because he prefers his own. A few White people patted him on the back, one even ignorant and said he’s very happy with his White wife and blue eye’d blonde haired babies. I couldn’t get mad at overhearing it, they have a right to it. A few weeks later I heard a group of hispanics (Puerto rican) say they wouldn’t consider marrying an African American. They said they’re ugly, they prefer their own, blah, blah, blah The group consisted of men and women.
But, but, but… (And this all realky actually happened), a few weeks later I heard a group of Black men talking. One of the brothas said he prefers Black women. Guess what happened? All the brothas he was with started accusing him of being racist, and protesting their right to be with whoever, and all that “beauty is everywhere” stuff. Now I’m not saying that’s not true, but we are one of the only groups like that across the globe, (excluding Africa). I don’t believe our passion in protesting for the right to jump ship is not a result of White supremacy.
@ Sharina
If you looked at my first post just a few posts up, you would see that I never said it was wrong. I said THE RATE at which we do it, especially in comparison to other groups. I said that it’s fine when it’s about love, but I feel it usually isn’t, as no one does it as much as us.
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Yeah, i do know this…and i also know that Caribbean Blacks there have the highest percentage in raw numbers of IR marriage with whites and are the most dysfunctional Black group…
In fact in Nottingham, the dual heritage children now outnumber the Black children.
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@phoebeprunelle
“Little to no restriction” I understand what you’re saying, but it simply isn’t true sweetheart. They’re just well spoken when they show it over here.
Interracial marriage over here is frowned upon, we have a political party called the NBP which is a White power party. The only difference is, we are succeeding in breeding our Blackness out on purpose.
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@Ebonymonroe
I’m confused here. Where did I say that you said it was wrong? If I am not completely mistaken I simply stated that black pride does not require marrying black. Though I will check it to see.
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@ Alicia
Yes the UK is very, very messd up.
As far as the sistas getting upset over dudes and their generalisations of BW, I don’t know if your aware of how extreme the hatred for BW/G has become online. The Tommy Sotomayors, Thugticians, Sgt. Willie Petes, etc, there was actually a death of a beautiful young Black woman named Asia Mcgowen by one of Sgt. Willie Pete’s followers. It has gotten out of hand. When you hear words like simp or statements that you know come from the philosophy of those I named, you’re gonna have to understand sistas closing their ears. The philosophy shows up everywhere online, even here. So BW have just begun tuning it out to stay sane.
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@ Sharina
Exactly, that’s what I was trying to say. Not ending up with a Black mate does not mean one is devoid of Black pride. If you’ve tried to find your mate amongst your own, waited patiently, and then come across your ideal outside of your race, you shouldn’t pass it up. Life is too short, and everyone wants to be happy.
My position is, that there is importance Black love and actually trying for it, as opposed to saying it doesn’t matter when it does. How can we make gains for our community politically, if we can’t even steady the nuclear Black family. And I do think it’s odd how many in the Western African diaspora champion interracial dating while others are about their own. I don’t feel this is unrelated to a slave mind set. The only one’s who beat us is Asian women. We should be trying to champion Black neighborhoods, families, business, good political leaders, Black beauty. Instead we are busy singing “we are one world” when it comes it comes to building families, and as soon as something happens, we start crying about White supremacy. It’s a joke.
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D.,
“I’m too old and too wise to let anyone make me doubt my Negritude.”
My statement had nothing to do with you at all, let alone your negritude.
“However keep in mind that shunning one another across class lines will only make us weaker spiritually, politically, and economically. Uplift would be that much harder.”
I never advocated shunning anyone against class lines or any lines. I have no idea what you are talking about.
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D.,
“Is Barack Obama really a good example? He wasn’t cut off from other African Americans because he was never connected to us in the first place.”
Barack Obama wasn’t the example.
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* (Hangs head @ the typos and grammatical errors.)
Look, as I’ve said before, you guys post like water on here, so you’re just gonna have to overlook my posting like a h@lf-wit.
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Abagond, thank you for allowing me to respond about tap dancing , and I will do my best to answer the other questions..
I keep bringing up tap dancing and Armstrong because they were political agendas that came out in the mid to late 60’s, along with the anti white interracial relationship agenda…
The exact people who came up with these things is something I dont exactly know, I just know, because I lived through it, that they were new trains of thought on the political activist scene…they probably came from a variety of sources…
you know that black activists latched on to Fannon and his analysis of that one woman , and there was that point where the preasure on black people from some of the activists was to stay loyal to black man or woman..this rhetoric you hear here right now, but it wasnt on the scene in as big a way before the 60’s..and i am all for black on black relationships, that was never my argument
the clip someone brought in with the black women in South Beach getting hit on by a white man, I think was Sotomyer, I dont know, but he went on about “you sighned on to a loyalty oath…” This “loyalty oath” is a referance to that agenda
I dont know who put out the tap denouncement either, but , by gosh , all of a sudden, the expresion” tap dancing shucking and jiving for the white man” came into the rhetoric, and you actualy heard Sondis use this rhetoric, is there any shucking or jiving on the clip I brought in? those men and women wer top rate incredible dancers , in a serious black American innovative art , which you cansee has parralel roots in Brazil, I dont know about you, but that floors me, and these artists were regulated to shucking and jiving for the white man?
What i can tell youis there was a show called the Lawrence Welk Show, that was as corny white as you could get, every sunday, and they brought out a frightened looking black guy, looking like he didnt want to offend anybody and he would tap dance…I mean heck yes, lets condemn the racist whites who drool over black culture but dont ackowledge their racism, that is what should be condemned , not the high art of tap dancing..
and i didnt really know the depth of the Armstrong condemnation until the Ken Burns jazz docu and Wynton Marsalis doing yeoman work to correct the situation, and tap dancing hasnt really recovered
And these agendas co incided with this stay loyal to black , dont go out with white , and that was under the “time to tell white people to get out of the movement” agenda…my point being, these were, out of one of our greatest social movements in american hisdtory, The Black Civil Rights Movement , and these were some of the flawed parts, the flawed agendas, that carry over and do damage…we cant see this strange , sad , bitter , and huge confrontations, right in the middle of the black diologue , and think its healthy…yes, maybe it was nescasary back then…but it sure has brought damage into today
I try to draw attention to these things together because there is an origin of some of the rhetoric you hear, and , to show that it is flawed, you have to show contexts where it is with other flawed agendas that were at the same time…but not damage the incredible work of the Civil Right movement
I really thought I was careful, not like asplund, to say i have absolutly nothing against anyone, if this rhetoric rings true for them, for their personal desicians to not date white people…I support those desicians, ..what i will opose and fight , is trying to criticise and psycho analise black people , or Asians, for what ever reasons they have come to the conclusion , that they are ok with having a relationship with a white person , and , i dont agree all white people are the oppressor , and there is some heavy white plot to either get black people apart, get them with white people or get them away from white people..its all gotten convoluted, even bigger reason to judge each individual white person on their own merits
This is a very emotional touchy subject for me, Abagond, I apreciete your patience…I wll research to find some of the origins of the anti interracial agenda, tap dancing and Armstrong, but , i did live though it and there was apoint those agendas came on the scene
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@Ebonymonroe
Thank you for taking time to clarify. I was a bit confused to be honest on whether or not you were saying black pride is based on if you marry black, but now that you clarified I do agree.
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abagond,
When I made that statement I wasn’t thinking of this thread specifically, but it has been implied.
The idea that interracial marriage is ok between blacks and other non-whites implies white people are uniquely evil.
From Adeen’s first comment on this thread:
” I oppose interracial relationships between Black people and White people. However I don’t oppose any other interracial pairings besides Blacks and Whites.
For starters, White people are our enemies. It doesn’t make sense to date someone who is your enemy. And most White Americans are very racist and teach their children not to date or marry Black people.”
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@ phoebeprunelle
Ah, I see you’re pretty up on the UK. Just to play devil’s advocate here for a minute, the question is, if the more pronounced barriers weren’t there for African Americans, would you end up the same way as the Afro Caribbean community in the UK? Or is the BM vs. BW, light skin/dark skin, Eurocentric Black images in your culture (Hip hop videos), White is right mentality, etc; hatred online, restricted to online over there, or is it just as apparent? Just out of curiosity. I assumed it was due to the high amount of interracial marriage between BM/Other like AW/WM.
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“Peanut
for some reason you just can’t fathom that some black women just are only interested in Black men it doesn’t register with you
@ Sondis”
You’re purposely, missing my point.
Its not that i don’t knowledge, that there are some black women out there that are only interested in black men. Just like there are black men, that are only for
Your whole message is that, black women as a whole and in general are only for black men, more so than black men. This is what i am challenging, black women today or no more for their black men, than black men are for black women.
Go on any interracial dating site, see 100’s of thousands of black women, that are actively looking, specifically for WHITE MEN and or are open to dating white men in conjunction with dating black men as well as any other racial group.
This whole black women, being loyal to black men is so 60’s 70’s but in 2013, its dead as disco!
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“abagond
@ Sondis @ Sharina: Comments deleted for using insulting language.”
Fair enough…
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@ Soulsearch
I AGREE! There seems to be this idea that hispanics, Middle Easteners, Asians, etc, are not ever as racist as Whites, which is simply not true at all. I completely oppose that line of thinking. I’d marry interracially but… not White people. I’ve heard someone say “I’d marry a White woman, but not if she has blonde hair and blue eyes because that would be giving in.” (Face…hands.)
Really, interracial marriage is interracial marriage. In my opinion, as long as the person is open to learning of your culture and experience; if I was with someone outside of my race, I’m risking the same ignorance because they’re not Black and have quite possibly been “miseducated” on what “Blackness” is, or on “The Black experience”. Although, being with someone who is Black runs the risk of coming across internal anti-Black attitudes; many of which I have encountered sadly. (Face… hands.)
Being White would not make any difference to me. But that’s just how I see it.
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@Ebony,
if the more pronounced barriers weren’t there for African Americans, would you end up the same way as the Afro Caribbean community in the UK?
Yes…in fact this is already the case in certain Black communities in the U.S. My point earlier was to highlight some thing i have noticed about Black people living in majority white countries–Black people will be “allowed” some access to whites sexual– particularly African men and Caucasian women couples will represent the initial surge because she (white woman) was once “unattainable” (this is true in the U.K., the U.S. Brazil and South Africa)…
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That should read “Black people will be “allowed” some access to whites sexually”
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@ Sharina
No problem sweetheart. Some people take it to the extreme and preach that we should die alone before we marry out. As though dying alone, celebate, and childless will help the cause. (Face… hands)
@ Sondis
How dare you? I’ll have you know that whenever Diana Ross’ “My Piano,” “Love hangover,” or Donna Summers’ “Love to love you baby,” plays, I’m quite inclined to shimmy across the room. I resent such a statement.
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Also my last response to Ebony shouldn’t be in blockquotes…
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“Alicia
What’s sad about this topic is the divisiveness. Black women posters keep dogging out black men and totally IGNORE The fact that many Black WOMEN also prefer white men or pretend white men are saviors and also dog out black men. Some of the black mens posts are focused on Black women.
It’s sad because if you open your eyes, you will see both black men AND black women are doing the dogging out of the opposite sex when it comes to blacks.”
I agree 100% Sista….
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“Ebonymonroe:
@ Sondis
How dare you? I’ll have you know that whenever Diana Ross’ “My Piano,” “Love hangover,” or Donna Summers’ “Love to love you baby,” plays, I’m quite inclined to shimmy across the room. I resent such a statement.”
I’m fine, thanks for asking. I see you shimmy… ^_^
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@Phoebeprunelle
I see, I get what you were saying now, and I agree.
The fact that it, (the AA community), would end up that way, if given the chance, is what is so disturbing to me.
I believe that the “say what I like” attitude, that is associated with reaching your 50’s, has filtered down to the mid 20’s, now, in our increasingly hedonistic world. So as I approach my mid 20’s, I must say, I think this fact is pathetic.
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Abagond, the reason I say the REDCultural revolution is relevant for me, is because, where you might not see it on this thread the “all white people are the oppresor”, it absolutly has been thrown out there on other threads…absolutly…TroganPam for sure…among others
You know, some people on the blog were debating the meaning of racism, I mean we dont have a clear definition of racism on the table, but , you know, Im of a mind to say yeah, white people invented racism , so only white people can be racist…and other people can be bigoted, prejudice or biased…so ‘white racism” is a singular aspect, there is no other aspect to measure it up to, so, if someone is saying all white people are the oppressor and white people and the West are the most destructive of all…which has been said , too, then under the context of man’s humanity to man , which white racism and the genocides of the West are truly a part of…then if someone argues the reason to criticise someone for dating a white person is, he is the “oppresor”. america, by being racist, is the most violent worst place a POC can live,not stated, but truly implied…then the only way to debate that is bring up other mass examples of man’s inhumanity to man, since the white man is the only racist among them(if we agree on that) no other group can be proved racist (the hiarchy in the Asian dynamic is a broad and huge one with their own versions of discrimination and bias between groups and countries, but, Ill agree to not call it racist) so, to answer a constant barrage of how evil america is (you know that is a theme on here) , how evil white people and the West are , then the comparing factor is man’s inhumanity to man…since no other group can be racist ( in whatever semantical debate that holds up to) and it is fully legitimit to do it
white people went into Africa for slaves because of the racism they invented, how do you classify Arab’s going into Africa pulling out as many black Africans, many specificly for rape in a harem? If they are not racist they surly are practicing man’s innhumanity to man, and can be compared to the white racists, or the man’s inhumanity to man fromAsians…racism isnt the comparison measure, man’s inhumanity to man is, and if people use the “white oppresor argument,the bwhite people and the West were the worst of all” in arguments against interracial relationships, and they have been used on other threads, than countering that other groups practiced just as bad man’s inhumanity to man , and that is not a reason to critisice someone elses desician for going out with a white person is a legitimate argument
Again, I have nothing at all against anyone if people use those reasons for not dating a white person, but trying to make that the mandate not to date white people, and psycho analyse others who do, deserves to know man’sninhumanity to man is not a reason to mandate others to not interracialy date
There is a differance from, “white people are the oppressor , and committed the worst acts in history, I chose not to date them” and”white people are the oppressor nd commited the worst acts in history, no POC should be in an interracial relationship with a white person , you should get out of bed with them”..and deserves a responce that the white man is not the only group that committed man’s inhumanity to man
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Eboniy,
“I will just say this; if African Americans who have worked into the middle class are marrying out the most (particularly AA men), and are becoming disconnected with a sense of community and Black legacy, their children are also likely to be disconnected, marry out, and at that point the family will almost be (or look), White. It cannot be a coincidence that Asian women and Black men marry out the most, and according to White supremacist ideals of femininity and masculinity, which their choices usually match. (General statement, and not a reflection of any/every AW/WM or AAM/WW couples). But, it is very obvious.”
It’s not that they are marrying out. It’s that they are moving out. The moving out facilitates the marrying out. if a black/non-black couple lived in a majority black neighborhood there would be no disconnect. If a black/black couple lived in a majority white neighborhood there will still be a disconnect.
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Ebonymonroe
In the UK 50% of Afro Caribbean men marry White women, and 35% of Afro Caribbean women marry White men; I wonder if the African American community will end up going in the same way?
Personally, I’m not against interracial relationships/marriages. I’m the product of one
pretty much everything that plagues you plagues us 100 times worse, because we are such a small population and we have never has a major Black pride movement like you have. We are not let in because racism doesn’t exist, we go in because it does.”
Linda says,
It’s taken me a while to catch up on the last few posts but I must say, as usual, this topic swings between vile to civil.
Thank you D and Ebonymonroe for trying to bring the intellectual into the topic because it is an emotional lightenting rod for black people living in America and seems to bring out the ugly.
Ebonymonroe, some thing you said echo my own thoughts on this topic and being Caribbean with many ties to UK, your assessment, to me, seems right on point.
I might add my take on the “whys” of why my Caribbean brethren find it easy to “marry out” racially than Africans. My opinion, it seems that African commonwealth brethren didn’t buy into and drink as much of the British “Motherland” punch as the West Indians.
I might be wrong but I believe the majority of Africans held on to their Ethnicity, Traditions, and Culture despite Imperialism/Colonialism — they held on to their sense of self and know “who they are” – whereas, Afro-Caribbeans had to redefine who they were and British traditions and mindset played a large part in the definition of “self”. (I am aware that African colonies were affected and influenced by the Europeans but not to the point as the African slave descendants in the Caribbean)
Don’t forget that in the Caribbean, slavery produced the “brown” class, which was able to flourish because the white fathers acknowledged and educated their mixed-race children.
“James Stewart, an Englishman who lived for some time in Jamaica, also observed that men of color were divided by society into three classes. The first was the offspring of (white) men of fortune, who were sent to Great Britain to receive a liberal educated and expected to inherit independent fortunes. Next came the offspring of men in moderate circumstances, who gave their children a plain education and left the bulk of property among their children at their death. Finally, there were the men who did not have the means or inclination to provide for their children, which he noted as the most numerous class.”
http://scholar.library.miami.edu/emancipation/culture4.htm
This idea of procreating with “white or light-skinned” in order to go up the social or financial ladder is a mindset that started during slavery in the Caribbean and continues even now — and the Caribbean immigrants who went home to “mother England” took this mindset with them – they are products of the environment that European slavery in the Caribbean created.
And unlike America, there were no Legal laws or barriers (like Jim Crow) in the UK or Caribbean, set in place to Restrict black or brown people or keep them from intermarrying or interacting with whites in a social setting – nothing tangible that you can point to on paper that can be challenged or erased.
And I believe, therein lies the main problem for Caribbeans and Africans in the UK and why our “black pride/civil rights movement” was weak to ridiculous – there was nothing in writing (tangible) to fight against – everything comes down to “intangible behaviors and attitudes” that white society can “poo poo” away and say it’s the figment of black/coloured peoples imaginations.
This “intangible” marginalization from white society is what black Americans are dealing with now in the USA – this is where their frustration is coming from, even though their Civil Rights movement removed the tangible barriers.
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@ Linda
Please don’t tell me you read through all these comments???
And you know how these conversations goes. polite….somewhat polite….somewhat rude…rude….vile. LOL
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Abagond, Id like to say, Im sorry for bringing anger and edge to your blog on this thread..I have anger issues about anti interracial sex…Ive been interracialy dating for close to 5 decades, the initial attemted physical intimidations , the inevitable stares that show up , seeing my sensitive wife brace herself to go out to deal with potential stares…it builds up
no one on here is verbaly acosting anyone on the street , they are giving their opinions
and, why am i arguing this? I lived my beautiful life ,the last 28 years in an interracial mairedge, with a wonderful mixed race son…both Afro descendants , both deeply involved and steeped inAfro disporic culture, and I live in one of the most mixed Afro diasporic places on earth
the anti interracial sex advocates are on the losing side of history, mixed race couples are just going to grow and grow and grow…some will be for the wrong reasons, others will make it work, and have beautiful families…some will just have good mutualy satisfying sex…what isnt on the losing side is fighting white racism
i put responsibility in interracial relationships with white people, on white people, to look inside and let go of cultural barriors, to have the understanding of the obstacles and dificulties their partner has had to endure , and to help protect them against the racist white agendas, as their partner will have their back
Im going to try to say less, and be less angry , thee is no need to be angry, I have already won in my life
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@ Peanut
I understand what you mean and what you are saying, but on that same note you can’t let those type of black men get you down. Though I must ask…what is the anger that black men (not all) carry for black women? Why? I don’t understand it.
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I will admit I was naive about it, but i am beginning to pay more mind to it as I am online. It is like some men out there want black women to be as bitter and angry as they are.
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where do you live Peanut? And what about Black women who do the same? You and maxine have to stop putting emotion into this black men IR dating thing because:
1. Black women date and marry out alot too, including many of the celebrities. How would you and others here feel if black men got all angry and emotional over Haale Berry, and others? It would be pathetic, wouldnt it?
2. Black women down black men too. In the media, all over the net and elsewhere. Heck, I felt like the weird one a while back when I went to an event and had about 5 black women around me all seeming so ever to date white men. It’s weird to me since hit men in general down black women!
3. It’s society and whites who won’t let black men show love or preference for black women, believe me.
Most Black men however, are with black women.
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Above I meant, the group of Black women I was with all kept mentioning how they were so open and wanted to date white men,
And of course I know Haale is spelled Halle.
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A-ha! I see you have embraced my theory that this is because the Black population in the U.K. was never “large” to begin with…had it been there would have surely been severe sexual restrictions..particularly harsh for Black men…
This is also true in “pockets” in the U.S…
Places like Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Washington (state), Wyoming, etc the Black people marry whites more frequently and do not experience social “push-back” because they make an insignificant number of the population…
For decades, Black Americans had been sold on the idea that the North was less racist than the South, but in all honesty, the Northern states historically never had a high population of Blacks to make it necessary to enforce social restrictions. The Blacks in the South (due to our relatively high numbers) faced Jim Crow, and to this day, Black people in the South are more likely to be poorer and live in “ghettos” than Blacks anywhere else in America. Since economics is the base for power this arrangement is a win-win for whites because they can still control to a certain degree who has access to whom sexually.
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Peanut:
“at the end of the day look at the stats, who is dating out mORE…not Black women.”
what stats? you constantly push these, supposed “stats” but don’t post any stats from any source, reliable or not.
“its plain as day who is more loyal and if black women are starting to go for white men more it’s BECAUSE of Black men shunning Black women”
The logic in this statement makes no sense, you interpret a “supposed” loyalty by black women, simply because the majority of black women, date and or marry black men??? So i guess its not because, the majority of black men and women in America, Marry and date within their own race??? black people, marrying out of their race is a MINORITY, so it makes perfect sense that a black women AND a black man, will end up together, being the majority of blacks live with other backs. Not some sort of “loyalty by black women that you keep, spewing all over the place as if black women are so pro-black in 2013.
“you know the ID inside of me would LOVE to get with a white man just because of how many Black men say no one wants Black women, and how many Black men reject Black women…that’s the devious, ID inside me, but the superego, moral part of me KNOWS that is not right behavior and that wouldn’t be fair to Black women, white men, Black men or anyone else and I WILL NOT allow myself to stoop to that level”
You’re coming off like you’re doing black men a favor by making such a statement like this, black men don’t need your pity. they need your love and support, so spare me with your false loyalty for black men, its pathetic at best and pandering at least.
“but the point is…the reason I feel that way is because of certain Black men who shun and demean Black women, men like Tommy Sotomayor”
You really are bitter, aren’t you? You judge all black men by the men you have come across and also by strangers on the internet, that make a living off bashing black women?? This speaks for itself, if not just seeing that you’re obviously a scorned woman from your past, relationships.
“there is NO BLACK WOMAN equivalent to a tommy sotomayor, no matter how you want to spin it BWE DOESN’T EVEN COME CLOSE, so don’t go there.”
who says, you? they exists and i have watched their videos on youtube but you as a black woman in all your black man hating rants, wouldn’t even try to look for these type of black women, because i would prove you wrong.
“it’s disgusting the way some Black men behave and you sondis and other black men dont’ do enough to call that bs out you just want to sit back and pretend it’s all equal when it’s all not.”
So you get to decide, what amount of calling out is acceptable and what isn’t? Last i checked, i was on topic, speaking about how white men, look at black women as sexual objects within an interracial relationship.
You on the other hand, have been changing the subject matter into talking about black women are more loyal than black men and how me and other black men on this blog, are not doing enough to call out bs.
This is typical, every time an articles is posted about black and white relationships, the topic turns into bashing black men about what they do and how they treat, black women.
I never ONCE, seen a black man on this blog, EVER speak about what black women do in response to a article about black men, dating white women, black men only respond to black women’s bashing of them.
“you haven’t seen Black women running after white men and shunning Black men (the way some black men do”
How can you tell me and other black men, what we do and don’t see?
Again, I’ve seen with my own eyes on just one interracial site that has black women, specifying “WHITE ONLY, NO BLACK MEN CONTACT ME, I AM NOT INTERESTED IN BLACK MEN, THIS IS A INTERRACIAL SITE, I PREFER WHITE MEN”
This is just one example of the extreme in your face, hatred of black men and worshiping of white men by black women.
I am not telling you, that black men are so loyal to black women. I am simply saying that its not more or less on either side, being black men and women are both victims of white supremacy.
This white supremacy plays out in our loves lives as well as other areas of our lives.
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“who says, you? they exists and i have watched their videos on youtube but you as a black woman in all your black man hating rants, wouldn’t even try to look for these type of black women, because i would prove you wrong.”—I actually did, but found nothing more than this.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT3GIth-Qwk)
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Connecting minority shops with customers:
References to “black wall street” in Talsa,Oklahoma
black unemployment rate, twice that of the national average
African America consumer spending 967 billion in 2012!!
This number is expected to increase to 1.1 Trillion by 2015!!
in 1921, it took a year for a black dollar to leave the community but today our dollar leave the black community, every 15 minutes!
(http://youtu.be/6wDtyr4cPV0)
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Wow, I haven’t been on here in a LOOOONG time! LOL
But I have been reading this thread and didn’t expect it to go all out like that. (Especially the BW/MM bit)
In all honesty, on both sides when it comes down to it. It’s a 2-way street. In this young generation, color is holding less weight of water. People are breaking away from that “Stick to your own” mentality both BM and BW. The only blacks that I know that will hold on to those beliefs are…those that are born back in the days(50’s-80’s, a lil bit from the 90’s) or black militant.
I understand what both sides are saying, but this can be said with other female/male arguments. But in my all honesty, BW are still being bashed. At the end of the day, I don’t hear many “truth” vids/blogs from BW in the same style as those of Tommy/Sarge. The only “BM” basher”(If you wanna call her that) was from MsProphet on YT(I believe that was her name) Who made that ONE infamous vid, called “Why I don’t date black men or “Black men are a-holes(I forgot the title, but look her up if she’s still there)
I saw the vid and I mostly agreed to what she was saying.I thought it was a decent video UNTIL strangely black men flagged that vid up. As soon as she made that vid, COUNTLESS Vid responses on youtube/blogs/discussions….shoot it even made to WSHH!(That’s saying a lot) And what I found soooo hypocritical/hilarious about the whole thing. A lot of these so called “BM” were crying, because for once ONE BW had not so good things to say about them and they didn’t like it. (All those times screaming that BW can’t handle, but when it’s flipped around. Everyone wanna cry foul).
And the things they said to her was a mess. “Oh she’s a b—-” “She doesn’t have a man” “Ghetto hoodrat” and my fav “SHE’S….A…BITTER….BLACK…WOMAN”. (Just look at the responses on YT) All the brotha’s was pissed and in some cases were even checking black women for not calling her out OR giving applause/kisses to the one’s that were. But in my head and so many others, what was so dang controversial about what she said? This ONE woman? And you know what killed me the most, there were HUNDREDS of angry responses to msprophet and her followers checking and letting her know that hey, “Not all black men are like that” or “You haven’t met all black men”. BUT why couldn’t it be said the other way around?.
SMH
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pt2.
There are a lot of double standards when it comes to this discussion and instigators in the midst like.
1.The bitter blk man- Nothing, but negativity. The only thing positive thing he has to say is what the non-black women are doing with themselves.(Not wearing weaves, not giving attitudes and being not FAT & UGLY)
2.Beta males-All they do is put the “brotha’s on game”.(whatever that means) They swear up and down, that ALL black women want these mysterious Benz/Mercedes driving, Gold/diamonds wearing fools to come sweep them up their feet. The only way to combat that is check, check AND CHECK! These chicks. Their fav hobbies: Giving horrible dating advice and lurking where there is a attractive woman getting attention. Fav phrases: Capt. Save a hoe, Simpin, ,Thirsty and lames.
1. The Victim- One negative comment about 1 other black woman and she’ll think you’re talking about her. And the whole discussion will get derailed and become a blaming fest. And it’ll come down to her really being insecure.
2. The bitter blk women- Same as the male counterpart. But it’s obvious to point her out and no one takers her seriously.(Same can’t be said for the male though)
These are just my encounters and don’t reflect on anyone here. But like I said, it’s a 2-way street and these same standards/complaints can be said for any female/male drama.
But at the same time, be realistic. BW have always been giving the low luck of the draw. Regardless of what you guys have to say, even you know something is up if you have have to tell black women to “ignore” these other guys, “look past that” and see you’re not like the “rest”. It’s a serious problem.
@Sondis
I understand your frustration. but take in consideration this is what it feels like to be ignored and casted aside. Like we always are
@Peanut
I understand your frustration as well.
This is why I hate to have these discussions it brings out the bad in us and overlooks the good.
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http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=why+u+treat+me+so+bad&FORM=VIRE4#view=detail&mid=47CE4CD4156445C110C047CE4CD4156445C110C0
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there is male privilege yes even black males have it, ask urself is there a day dedicated to a black woman? is there a Bessie coleman day, harriet tubman, sojourner truth day. no there is mlk day, but I know that is kinda off topic but the point is black women are ignored a lot of times and if we are ignored in games, movies, celebrations we are also sometimes ignored in dating. Now as for some black women yes unfortunately there are some black women that do diss black men and I hate to say it but some black women were going on talk shows before my time and talking about black men. I’m not saying we shouldn’t tell each other how we feel but doing it through the media and youtube is lame that imo is immature if u have an issue with someone tell them don’t go on national tv or youtube and talk about them. It is like seeing ppl complain about their mate to their single friends, but in this case replace those single friends with white ppl whispering in ur ear and saying girl u should leave him or man leave that b alone. That is what happens u take it publicly and then the white experts try to play the helping game and unfortunately negativity is a market and they get endorsements. Some black men do go in on black women but I avoid anti black, black ppl altogether not everybody is my brotha or sista simple as that. there will always be uncle tommys and aunt jemimas.
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I have seen comments on some youtube vids like awkward black girl of some black women being like yeah get that white chocolate, then when someone calls them out they say well black men do it too or something to get revenge on black males. So if a black male or any other male does something I will not follow them if they go and sky dive or something, trust that I will be on the ground. I’m not following any man off a cliff or some crazy shish, but anyway if some black males bash black women and date out rofl that is good imo as I don’t want a man that is anti himself, a house divided cannot stand. Unfortunately it does seem like positive balanced black men and women are a rarity and we can go back n forth about why that is ,but its a combination of reasons why that I won’t go into. be loyal to yourself as nobody not even family at times will stand by u or understand u.
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i’m not saying some black men don’t do things too, but what does being like u are worse than me, gonna fix? There are things men do that annoy me and I know as a female that same behavior would not be tolerated from me, but at the same time I don’t want to be like them, if women did everything that men did civilization would be very corrupt. From our unique position we can see and sense things others can’t because we have learned to depend more on our senses and smarts while others depend on their privilege.
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@mstoogood4yall
Well said!
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Oh and love the new pic
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^ thanks I chose it because of the lion and to me the pic is saying i’m fly like the birds and strong like the lion lol. or even deeper i’m graceful like the birds and fearless like the lion and the girl in the pic is shielding her eyes because the future is so bright. rofl let me stop..
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Peanut,
I know you mean well, but please wake up and STOP BEGGING BLACK MEN FOR RECIPROCITY!
Newsflash: You’re not gonna get it.
It’s falling on deaf ears, and they’re ripping into you because they don’t believe you. I find it rather irritating how you get spastic on here, and then apologize and grovel the next.
Get a backbone and a clue already…really.
Placing the black man on a pedestal hasn’t won you any points, but a few Scooby snacks from Abagond when he feels like tossing them to you.
And for what? For you to do the same damn thing all over again on this board whenever such subjects like these arise.
Again, you mean well, but you need to wake up and realize that a lot black men are not in your corner. They love all the sniveling and groveling that you do, and yet you get nothing back in return.
Tends to get a bit tiring, don’t ya think?
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I think it or more of they don’t care rather than they don’t believe, but I tomorrow I think I will make a final post ob my thoughts and retire to observation.
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“PersonaNonGrata
Peanut,
I know you mean well, but please wake up and STOP BEGGING BLACK MEN FOR RECIPROCITY!
Newsflash: You’re not gonna get it.
It’s falling on deaf ears, and they’re ripping into you because they don’t believe you. I find it rather irritating how you get spastic on here, and then apologize and grovel the next.
Get a backbone and a clue already…really.
Placing the black man on a pedestal hasn’t won you any points, but a few Scooby snacks from Abagond when he feels like tossing them to you.
And for what? For you to do the same damn thing all over again on this board whenever such subjects like these arise.
Again, you mean well, but you need to wake up and realize that a lot black men are not in your corner. They love all the sniveling and groveling that you do, and yet you get nothing back in return.
Tends to get a bit tiring, don’t ya think?”
Now this seems very suspect to me, i smell a white sock puppet, that’s trying to instigate.
I never saw this screen name before on this blog, this person comes out of nowhere and instigates and at the same time, bashing Abagond.
I would watch anything this person says, black people. I may have my differences my black people on here but don’t get it twisted, i know when i smell a white racist, trying to fuel the flames, amongst black folk.
I’m asking everyone to watch this one…
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^ oh yes I am watching this one as when I saw the name and I never saw that name before I did think hmm, and then addressing peanut as if they know her. like really when I come on a new website I don’t address ppl in a tough love or condescending way. u gotta know somebody for a little bit and talk to them before judging and giving out advice to them. I mean come on it’s not gonna work because who listens to a stranger that they don’t know the intentions of and the way they say things. Again the way ppl say things comes off wrong especially when u start cussing and being like oh and u make me sick the way u beg blah blah blah.
@ peanut
thanks I try lol, the older ppl on these blogs give me wisdom as well as the creator.
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Dang. I thought it was one of those “in and out commenter’s” that pop up here and there and disappear for a while.
I do agree though….seems like someone who has interacted with her prior.
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“mstoogood4yall
^ oh yes I am watching this one as when I saw the name and I never saw that name before I did think hmm, and then addressing peanut as if they know her. like really when I come on a new website I don’t address ppl in a tough love or condescending way. u gotta know somebody for a little bit and talk to them before judging and giving out advice to them. I mean come on it’s not gonna work because who listens to a stranger that they don’t know the intentions of and the way they say things. Again the way ppl say things comes off wrong especially when u start cussing and being like oh and u make me sick the way u beg blah blah blah.”
I’m glad i’m not the only one that saw, PersonaNonGrata’s comments suspect.
Peanut fell for it, hook line and sink. This is typical of white men and women to join a black blog to instigate a heated debate, amongst ourselves.
All in all, i have my differences with some black people on this blog but listen here…
It’s not coming from hate or malice, unlike white people that have an agenda to keep black men and women, apart.
What i say to my black people, comes from a genuine concern. no matter how you slice it. I’m black, so i can talk to my black folk in a critical way.
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oh goodness is it another one of asplunds crazy exes rofl lmbao
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or should I say sock puppet psycho girlfriend lol
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^^^^
Another Mammy….LOL!!!
Not a sock-puppet, but a keen observer. And you’re really no better than Peanut, the emotional beggar for black male acceptance.
Line up for that Scooby snack, girly. You did good…
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@ Soulsearch
I don’t live in the city of London anymore; the Black population over here is much smaller, I live in the middle class & yet I encounter members of the Black British everyday. As “D” said, 50% of African Americans are middle class, so it’s not as if you won’t come across a potential African American mate. Yes, you’re more likely to encounter Whites because they’re more numerous, my gripe is when Blacks sing “we are the world, we are the future, Black is an illusion let’s all join hands,” as though building a flourishing Black middle class, filled with stable, healthy nuclear Black families, (Black men and women), wouldn’t be significant and powerful for the Black community at large.
You’ve taken exerts from my posts where it can be said “you can do that with a non Black spouse, too” as opposed to comprehending the essence of my position. Black women outnumber everyone in college attendance, even Asian men. So they are moving into middle America faster than Black men, and yet AA men marry out far more. So it has nothing to do with being in the middle class.
I see the difference between Africans and Afro Caribbeans in the UK, and I think there is somewhat of a similarity between Afro Caribbeans and African Americans, as many of you seem to have the same mind set Afro Caribbeans have. Many African families have been here for years. They excel in higher education, corporate England, they build their own businesses, they marry one another, their marriages last. They have a sense of community, an attachment to their culture, they have an agenda to be collectively upwardly mobile, together. They own homes, they have spread out across the middle and upper middle class in the UK, but they are very much unified and connected to their community.
It hasn’t got anything to do with just moving into the middle class, Afro Caribbeans will say that and so will African Americans, but Africans don’t. But which group is usually succeeding the most in the Western world? That’s right, Africans are.
As I’ve said, I’m not against interracial marriage, I just find it pathetic how many in the Western Black diaspora champion it like no other group, and find the idea of marrying out, far more appealing, more beautiful, and even important, than marrying one of your own. We’re some conquered suckas.
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@ Linda
Thank you very much, I appreciate your contribution to the conversation and I agree with everything you said 100%
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@Ebony,
Wow!
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“We’re some conquered suckas.”
You mean YOU’RE the conquered sucka, right?
Speak for nobody but yourself, thanks 🙂
You mammies are a trip, as if you’re the voice for all black people….
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naija girl is that u, rofl. u went from calling us akatas to mammies wow
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on second thought it may not be naiji girl could be Maxine sounds the same going at peanut here’s a comment Maxine made on the black women loyalty and black men thread kinda sounds like the above. here it is
“PEANUT IS DELUDED LOL
she will be the type of black women that will support/love and kill for black love,yet she doesn’t see the obvious-that more and more black men are dating out.
There are lots of black on black relationships and these are around but for how long?
While certain bm date out when relationships fail with black sisters,bw rather than date out remain the all embarrassing ‘black single women’ statistic..its a great kick in the teeth to see that bm will pick the most average white women over a pretty black chick…but still sad women like Peanut is still championing bm that have long walked by
The worse stance a bw can do is shout in support for men who largely choose white women over you-you end up looking weak and desperate,these men are not weak,indoctrinated by the system or any other..these BM do so because they give a shit about their plight-they are thinking of themselves and see white women as the winning ticket-always have and sadly always will,bm have never been loyal to bw..”
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I don’t agree with generalisations, but, to an extent, I’m gonna agree with “personanongrata.”
Peanut, babygirl, you’re placing too much of your value in how Black men feel about you, as a Black woman. You must try to stop doing this.
You speak of things you experience as a Black woman, hate speech you hear from Black men at Black women online, the statistics of, like, nearly 20% of Black men marrying out, hatred for us in our music, and the things you see everyday. But what do you get in response? You’ll be attacked for it, told you’re fat, a babymother, disloyal, masculine, aggressive, ignorant, ugly; called a hair hat. You’ll be attacked for speaking of your difficult experiences out of humanity, expecting empathy, and then accused of generalising, and then you’ll be generalised as a Black woman with the most digusting stereotypes. As if that doesn’t validate your point.
Whenever these topics come up, I see you go through the same thing. You’ve got to stop expecting so much love and loyalty. You can have a sense of Black pride, but you must live your life for you. I’ve had two White boyfriends in the UK, dated an Israeli, dated another White guy, I’ve had three Black boyfriends, and my current long term relationship is with a Black man. When I lived in Atlanta, I dated a few Black guys, but my best relationship happened to be with a Puerto rican; my sister dated an Asian. I don’t get where you American sistas are coming from when you say there is no opportunity. You have to get out there and just live; there are great guys out there across all races. You’ve just got this imaginary era of Black love and unity in mind, that is a thing of the past. I think Sondis is a little older, things are a little different now in our generation (I assume you’re a twenty something, like me), so people on here may not be up on the relationships between young BM/BW and how bad the hatred has gotten in our time, because they’re part of a different generation. And I assume Abagond is, like, 2nd or 3rd generation American, for some reason. (I think someone said he’s Hatian). So the conscious brothas on here are a little disconnected from what young sistas go through in our generation, not understanding that not every young Black man has that same sense of consciousness that they have.
If you didn’t put so much on Black men, it wouldn’t shake you when you encounter those who hate Black women, because your sense of value would not be dependant on their mutual love, respect, and interest. Get over the hurt, babygirl. And move on with your life, do you.
Go watch “Foxy Brown” or “Coffy.” Workout, eat healthy, strive for the best career you can; take care of yourself, build your character (fruit of the Spirit). Then, you will have no problem getting offers left and right. Go live, baby. And make sure you walk with a mean strut. Make us proud, you know we’re known for that strut. Go on with your fine self sista.
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Oh great. Yet another one projecting their inadequacies. Does it not?! Rofl.
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My last comment was not to you Ebony. Though it might seem that way in the line up.
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@Phoebeprunelle I meant to add your name in there too but forget. I very much agree with what you’ve said and I’m thankful for your contributions.
@ PersonaNonGrata
I actually dapped your post and agreed with the essence of what you were saying. But I see you are name calling and insulting me for some reason, which is not called for. I’m going to ignore the ignorance, there is no reason for it. God bless.
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@Peanut
PersonaNonGrata is not completely of base. Her words are a bit blunt. Your begging black men for kindness and understanding only strokes their egos and confirms for them that you are a willing emotional throw rug. They can wipe the bottom of their shoes off on you and KNOW that you will be on the floor the next day by choice. Please develop better boundaries.
From You Tube:
Black Women Please Stop Begging:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edSkLDOWVgc)
Emotional Abuse of Black women:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoJuCyc1hX4)
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@BR, I remember when you pointed out some statistics I was using, and I found out I was using 2008 statistics instead of updated 2012 statistics. I thanked you for pointing it out to me.
Why are you so h*ll bent over shape that I made a mistake on a statistic when I admitted that it was a based on a prior report and updated the statement?
I never said white people are uniquely evil, but you also seem bent on saying that I implied or thought that, which I never did. I am not the only one who gets the impression that you might be derailing topics without understanding your agenda. I wonder how many people understand how your feelings about tap dancing, the Cultural Revolution and the fallacy of the Arab Trader Argument relate to interracial relationships, even after you try to explain it.
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@kiwi
What happened afterwards? Did he continuing doing it later?
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I don’t know this new person. I’m on the watch list, lol.
It’s sad but I dont even want to be reminded of Rose (Naija). In the end she was pretty damn cold hearted. But then again I caught a case of pretty bad oneitis and that’s what happens. She was a straight up ten but damn she lacked mercy.
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@asplund maybe it was youre not the one itis?
@solesearch you notion of wp as some benign socialiological construct disturbs me as seriously wrong.
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@D.
Ha-ha.
So we need a term to call the adage regarding probabilities of comparing something in an online discussion to Mao’s social policies and the Cultural Revolution, as allegedly even more deaths are attributed to that phenomenon than even the Nazi holocaust.
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@BR.. I think you have to give more weight to how some Black Americans saw tap dancing. I also think it’s a stretch to link that to IRRs. We also have to remember that no matter how much we may like a particular artistic form times change along with fashion, music and style.
The connotation of tap dancing and such was already being criticized as early as the forties if not before. Black people, including black musicians were attempting to move past the stereotype of the happy go lucky lazy black coon who lived only to entertain whites.
In Miles Davis’ autobiography he writes
“As much as I love Dizzy and I loved Armstrong, I always hated the way they used to laugh and grin for the audiences. I know why they did it–to make money and because they were entertainers as well as trumpet players. They had families to feed. Plus they both liked acting the clown; it’s just the way Dizzy and Satch were. I don’t have nothing against them doing it if they want to. But I didn’t like it and didn’t have to like it…They had already opened up a lot of doors for people like me to go through, and I felt that I could be just about playing my horn…that didn’t call for me grinning but just being able to play the horn good..Critics can take that or leave it.”
James Brown and the Alvin Ailey dance troupe and various black fraternities/sororities and other organizations kept African dance alive. But as their audiences tended to be other black people, it had a completely different type of meaning than say a Bojangles Robinson. Context and audience and intent matter a great deal.
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Bottom line is you’re the one who has to live your life. Worrying about what decisions other people make in their intimate affairs is pointless. Marry, date or sleep with who you want. If you make a mistake and that person turns out to be no damn good or a racist or whatever, it’s on you. It’s not anyone else’s business. As is pointed out over and over again, most Americans end up marrying and/or reproducing with someone of their same race. So the anguish about IRR seems a bit misplaced. If you’re happy in your relationship you’re not worrying about what other people are doing.
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@kiwi
Thanks for sharing.
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Actually mstoogood4yall it could still be naija girl. She was very strong on the idea of black people in here speaking for all blacks.
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@peanut
My comment in another post of what I’m not subscribed to was left in jest ,I thought you were being desperate but the more I read your comments now I realize we think very alike on every single issue-more then anybody here,so apologies for that.
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@mstoogood4yall
What exactly are you trying to do here
I posted the comment on the mere sentence of something peanut said without actually listening to the rest of her argument,like me she has said this with her own voice obviously we think alike.
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Abagond, here is a link about a paper written in the 60’s by SNCC, that is one of the indicators of the start of putting white people out of the movement, along with the Panthers, who refered to Fannon…Im not saying this is a wrong attitude, but it lead to the mandates about being loyal to each other..and you can see that that agenda has only come down into today as a negative agenda about who can have sex with who
http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/SNCC_black_power.html
with your permision, Id like to answer Shady
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@Jefe
Did you read the article in the link?
There is the Yellow Peril trope, which is still quite prominent in neoliberal foreign policy. On the last episode of Real Time with Bill Maher, the obligatory conservative was trying to rationalize the bloated US defense budget by besmirching China as the world’s boogeyman.
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No where in Ebony’s comments did she come across as a stereotypical, obese, woman willing and happy to serve white folk and others.
In fact, she is the ONLY Black woman who has brought some sort of intellectual reasoning to this discussion because she isn’t dealing in emotions.
Ebony, for one i think you are a breath of fresh air! It is rare to be able to exchange dialogue with a mind who understands worldly dynamics. Keep doing what you do boo :-).
Phoebepru
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Shady, first thanks for dishing up the kind of arguments that can go more in depth…Miles reads like malcolm X sometimes huh?
About tap, first, go to that clip and tell me if you see anything demeaning at all…i see high art…and Id like to see objections to tap from the 40’s..of tap only..people were starting to link tap to minstrel shows, but that is really too bad..no black performers could go in front of white audiences in the mid 1800’s if they werent in black face..that should tell you a lot right there..how can you crucify tap when a black performer had no choice
in fact, the inventer of tap wasWilliam Henrey
Lane aka Juba..he was an incredible performer, and after he gained respect,he was able to shed black face and do his own shows…that should tell you a lot too…you cant crucify the art when it was subjected to ridiculas circumstances,. When I book the shows with the samba dancers, i dont get to choose the venue, its the venue that hires me I have to work in
the Miles Davis referance is unfair, not only does he include dizzy, who was from the black revolutionary be bop, he is answering critics for lashing him about walking off the stage and turning his back on the audience…most black artists in the black power movement days didnt do what miles did, and would smile at the audiences…as a matter of fact, Chooly Atkins , who is one of the tap dancers in the clip I brought in,was the main choreographer for motown acts…it is very foolish to bury and destroy great art and artists in the name of an agenda..you should go after the guilty ones who forced them in situations that were demeaning
again, Miles wasnt coming from the same position at all, he admitted people like Armstrong opened the doors…Armstrong came from abject poverty, the son of a prostitute, was raised in an orphanage, this super star would pass through New Orleans on tour and go to the orphanage and take a nap..he was subjected to the very bitter racism that era had to offer..when you see interviews of him with white anouncers, he is playing them..Armstrong is the great grandfather…how could he be thrown under the bus…he should be embraced and treasured..Miles didnt throw him under the bus, or Dizzy, he was defending himself against white critics, who labeled him an angry black man..I mean dizzy never took the hit
As the paper I brought in shows, in the sixties, a new frame of mind was cristalised in the black mocement, and it was about gaining dignity, respecvt, power, and not needing to apeal to whites..in the midst of these noble aspirations, came some flawed agendas too, like trashing tap dancing, Armstrong and demanding black loyalty in sex, when sex has nothing to do with black pride
cmon, Shady, you know there is absolutly nothing demeaning about those tappers I brought in, its high art, they are performers who should be embraced and loved…many things were right and true about the agendas in the movement back then, those things werent…what is so hard about going back and embracing those artists and lifting the yoke off of the back of people that was a flawed agenda that only causes great inner turmoil and division…would these arguments be going on if that agenda didnt exist?Its a flawed agenda, and agendas
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@B. R.
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B. R.
Yes, there was a post Civil Rights Act pessimism when it became very clear that the Civil Rights Act wasn’t pulling us out of poverty and disenfranchisement, especially in the North where the movement changed almost nothing. (I learned of this when I read Martin and Malcolm and America: A Dream of a Nightmare). This pessimism is what allowed the seeds of Black Fascism to come out in full.
Abagond, can you delete my previous post? I messed up the url.
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Nope, yellow peril has nothing to do with my argument, I carefully stated that, so that doesnt aply to what Im saying at all
Jefe
you supported Kiwi’s statement about feeling queasy about seeing an Asian woman with a white man (amazing these people that make judgements and psycho analysis fron a distance without even knowing the people..I dont trust psychoanalysis anyway, but..a psycho analyst usualy has to talk to the patient for a few times to make his analysis, do these people have extra sensory perception?)
you made your “thought experiment” about what if we start lynching white people in interracial relationships
you pulled the cliche rhetorical argument of me a white person hiding behind my POC wife and son, which I flush down the toilet, there is no way you can judge me with that dogma, you who really cant discuss black culture with any depth, or, impress me , why dont you go toopen thread and enlighten me, because Id love to learn something about black culture I might not know..or tell me why you said it was weak again or clarify it
You can think anything you want about my using the Red Culture Revolution as an argument, I explained what I meant…if it in fact is derailing this thread, it certainly sticks as a counter to your constant negative depictions of what is going on in America out side this thread, as I have said, I see america portrayed as the all evil worse force on earth where I live, and those people should be reminded in my lifetime there was something much worse than what America did to Brazil…some of their revolutuinaries trained in China..you could use your arguments against that “its Brazil, how could you talk about China when it is Brazil”…and you would be seriously wrong…it is relevant and deserves to be put in perspective
Shady, my comment to you is in moderation
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@peanut
Thanks for your acceptance I genuinely jumped the gun without reading the rest of your comments just to realize I think extrememly like you .
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and D what has that got to do with telling people who they can have sex with and throwing tap and Armstrong under the bus, they are flawed agendas, I address it very well in my answer to Shady that is in moderation
(not sure why)
or d , do you really think these discusions are healthy, up lifting, benificial?
this is a flawed agenda that is a yoke around black people’s necks and is dragging the black narritive down and making it vulnerable to the white racists because it is so weak
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@peanut
You will not cease.
The loyalty argument is dumb argument once you dissect it.
Is there non-BM you would rather be with romantically?
Because any man full of pride would not want to be with a woman who is secretly lusting for another dude.
But if you have better options, but black men are not the best choice, but you pick them.
Well, who is the dumb one? That is disrespectful to BLACK MEN & most importantly, YOURSELF.
The reason why you & other black women ride with this argument, is because a lot of you are Professional Victims.
A lot of you picked the wrong kind of black men, and now we all gotta hear it.
Again, you are not doing black men a favor by dating us.
Be a high quality woman, and date who you want.
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@ Shady_Grady
” If you’re happy in your relationship you’re not worrying about what other people are doing.”—I agree but many of the individuals who find themselves upset about any type of relationship are not in one. SO the question becomes…is it the fact that it is a irr or is it the relationship in general?
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Because I feel like many others in here have echoed my feelings in regards to the subject, I won’t go on repeat.
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I think some of you need to move ASAP. Location, Location, Location. It must be very lonely being a black woman in an area or space where black women are not appreciated. Believe me, I have been there before in non-black areas where there’s been times where I’ve felt like that. Especially around white people where not only are we not appreciated, but under constant attack. Move ladies whom are complaining so you can experience the fact that in many areas black men and women are having good relations and black people are often hard working with ambitious and of sound minds.
I will restate that many black women do the same thing some of you are claiming black MEN do, which is down the opposite gender, claim white is better and so on.
Most black male celebrities and everyday black men are actually, of course with Black women. You think they didn’t have OPTIONS to date other especially maybe Hispanic or White, but they CHOOSE Black women because it’s only natural just as men of all races prefer the women of their own race.
I used to think black men didn’t care for black women too until I grew up and matured and opened my eyes to how white society tries to get black men to abandon black women, how black men have a threat over their head to prefer white women and dog black women. White society weirdly wants black women to be shunned and black men have so far NOT done that by and large so Black men deserve our praise more than anything else.
The whole time I would be concerned with that odd IR couple, I grew out of it and have realized, 90% of the other couples were always black male/black woman.
It’s all about what you focus on and you would not want black men to harp on who black women or black female celebrities date or that occasional black woman/other race couple, so let’s not do it to them.
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@phoebeprunelle
Awww! miss lady, thank-you.
@ Peanut
It’s not just what you say, it’s what you feel, which comes from the way you think. You expect waaay too much from Black men. You’re gonna have to (as the good book says) “renew your mind.” You’re projecting ideals unto Black men that are just not realistic. Your voice telling you you’re are “all that,” needs to be enough. If you can develope that, no man or woman, Black or White, will make you flinch, and that’s just the how it should be. I for one looove being a Black woman, I wouldn’t want to be anything else.
And if a man didn’t want me, when I come through, even with my tanned skin, my big floppy version of a Pam Grier afro, my extreme hip to waist ratio, the edge in the way I walk and talk, the natural rhythm in my body when the music starts, my pouty kiss, the smell of my Caribbean cooking, my mind, (which is forced to grow, to assess everything around me with wisdom and accumulated knowledge, I cannot afford not to have as a Black woman), my loyalty, humanity, compassion, and laughter, not because of what I haven’t been through as a Black woman, but DESPITE what I HAVE been through. If a dude didn’t want me, I’d truly be shocked. Let me tell you something, Prince lied, he named “Vanity” after me. That’s the way it is, and that’s the way it always will be.
You can’t spend the rest of your life hurting like this, every time this topic comes up. If I was there I’d force you to look at pictures I’ve found of Black women. You wouldn’t be phased by anyone putting you down ever again, if you could see what I see in Black women.
And let me tell you something that will rub some up the wrong way. Whenever I walk past Black men with non Black women, the brothas stare at me for some reason, as though they want to jump back over, this makes me confused. It is uncomfortable when they actually strain their necks while they walk with their partner. But you’ve got to know what you’ve got first, babygirl.
I just keep it moving.
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B. R.
So I made my last comment without reading your link B.R., which is bad form on my part. It seems to me that the sentiments expressed in that article weren’t fascist, but instead pushes for Afro-American Sovereignty. There is nothing unusual with wanting to part ways with a society that does not honor your rights and/or humanity; the US has done so, Haiti has done so, most of Latin America has done so, Native Americans have strived for that same political goal for years now. Regrettably, some people apply this agenda to their sex lives and expect others to do the same.
There’s no reason why White people can’t be involved in theory, but theory is a treacherous thing and most White Americans, Liberal and Conservative, tend to lose control of their bowels at the prospect of Afro-American sovereignty.
So it goes back to the question, “Do you attack bigotry, or power?” Defeating anti-Black bigotry has proven to be all but impossible, but many people around the globe have achieved greater power by gaining independence from an oppressive society with far fewer resources than we have.
It goes without saying that it’s a controversial agenda. We could try to unite the world in our shared humanity, but such a thing has never been done in 6000 years since the first city-states rose. On the other hand, the Age of Empires is over and nation-states are rising across the Earth: South Sudan, The Western Sahara, The Republic of Lakotah, etc. Remember that we are not merely a race, we are an Ethnicity with an identity, culture, and history that is unique to us and us alone. All that bars us from being a nation is the lack of territory to call our own.
My 2¢ are this: there is an agenda being pushed by Liberals and Conservatives that claims that America was always meant to be a country where everyone is equal, and that Slavery, Jim Crow, Internment Camps, and Native American genocide were simply mistakes that don’t reflect the ideas that America was founded upon. This is a beautiful lie; America was born a White Supremacist Republic. Our freedom and citizenship were never a part of the Founders’ intentions. The implications of this line, written by a man who owned people as property, are crystal clear:
We are not men & women in America’s eyes. Whatever grand sweeping statements of freedom and equality are rendered null and void when applied to the Black body time and time again throughout America’s past and present. It is neither a mistake, nor a sad coincidence, nor a deviation from the blueprint. Rather, it is by design. This is American White Supremacy, and we must accept it as a constant and intrinsic aspect of American culture, society, and politics. If African American independence is born from that realization, then so be it.
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@ Alicia
“It’s all about what you focus on and you would not want black men to harp on who black women or black female celebrities date or that occasional black woman/other race couple, so let’s not do it to them.”—I hate to say this but there are men that do. Frankly too each his own, but as black women we have got to stop idolizing this idea that all black men are this good stand up people that are down for the sistas. Not all of them are and when women hold on to this type of idea they find themselves hurt and shock when they encounter that black man that wants to hurt them and put them down.
Same thing in the vise versa.
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@ D.
Just read your comment. to B.R.
applause* that was very well said.
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@ Ebonymonroe
I like the way you lay it out there. Does not hurt that you are a prince fan either. 🙂
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Alicia:
“It’s all about what you focus on and you would not want black men to harp on who black women or black female celebrities date or that occasional black woman/other race couple, so let’s not do it to them.
I agree 110%, You’re a breath of fresh air, Alicia. 🙂
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“Adonis:
The reason why you & other black women ride with this argument, is because a lot of you are Professional Victims.
A lot of you picked the wrong kind of black men, and now we all gotta hear it.
Again, you are not doing black men a favor by dating us.
Be a high quality woman, and date who you want.”
+1 on this brotha.
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I have not followed this thread closely, and as a result have probably not fully understood the exchanges over the last couple of days, but, when Phoebe said this:
Could someone tell me what this is?
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Same & Similar are NOT the same.
American Black women in general are more similar than they are different. Good & Bad.
If your imagination & common sense is out of whack, and you are clearly Team Black Woman, I can see how you would disagree just for kicks.
Most women who are comment on blogs fall into those categories. If you are still in denial, just ask them to privately e-mail you there updated photos. Simple.
I am not making that argument that non-BW are intrinsically better.
I am arguing, if you want a more put together woman, and you go out & actively date. She is least likely going to be an AMERICAN black woman.
It is mostly not their fault for this, because your environment/culture & socio-economic standing of your community play into this.
So, Sharina, in your area, if you have all these extraordinary SINGLE black woman out here, not being chose,
And it is not because she is OLD, FAT, WITH CHILD, ATTITUDINAL or have POOR RELATIONSHIP INTANGIBLES.
What is YOUR theory for their singleness?
I challenge you because, I know in a lot of places in America, women are very passive when it comes to dating. & suck at dealing with rejection.
So, the floor is yours.
One, if you see this fat woman OR ANY OTHER fat woman romantically linked to a dude in his Mercedes or any other high-end luxury vehicle, snap a picture.
Since this phenomenon is more common where you live, this should not be a problem.
You can blur out their faces. If you know them personally, tell me their backstory.
I know of fat women who can find TRICKS to spend money on them. There is a whole industry where a small number of men with money will pay for fat women to play in the s*xual realm.
Having money as a man is IMPRESSIVE & can take you places with WOMEN.
So, this Nigerian man either has an angle for this fat woman, or that is what he believes that he can reasonably get on the market.
Good for her either way.
I thought so.
I thought so.
In general, men value similar things in women.
In general, women value similar things in men.
Their are variables, but very predictable.
First of all, I don’t even believe you are telling the truth.
Black women are not the most honest when it comes to these kinds of conversations, so I don’t believe these women are high quality women.
– they might have a poor disposition about men in general.
– they might have subpar parents
– they might be busy & dating is not a priority
– they take their mating pool for granted
– they might be well known LOOSE women
– they might choose irresponsible, non-committal men (the most common culprit)
But whatever the case. Unless men are raping them, MEN are not at fault.
These women have choices & options. That is on you.
Well, if they live in a place where men are not plentiful & available, that might pose problems.
Are you telling me, NO MAN wants these high quality women?
The reason why you are RUNNING from this part of my comment is because if WE got to the BOTTOM of why these “great” women are single, we would realize, men have little to do with it.
I always question married black women doing anything other than attending to your family full time.
Advocating for other women who make poor choices in men puzzles me.
I am assuming these women are of quality, tick most of the boxes.
Men’s value systems are not that different.
Which you are very vague about all three of these scenarios. Whatever
You just proved my point. Best available man who was willing to commit. But more attractive men can have the vag if things get rocky.
You are just arguing just to argue. Tap-dancing.
And it was @peanut who scapegoated black men as if black men just abandoned good black women who are these loyal creatures.
90% of your collective dating issues would be solved by internal repair & being extremely proactive when seeking out a mate.
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Last comment for @Sharina
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@Alicia
GREAT COMMENT.
—-
The flip side is that black men do want to mate with black women,
But he is unattractive (swagger & average income [$40K-], average looking ) & the women are hard to get along with outside of intercourse.
You gotta date the people who you are compatible with.
As far as the GOOD black women, if they are awesome, they will have suitors.
What they do with those suitors, that is on them.
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Sharina:
“but as black women we have got to stop idolizing this idea that all black men are this good stand up people that are down for the sistas.”
Not one black man that has commented on this thread has made such a claim BUT a black woman, ( Peanut ) has made this claim about black women, being down for black men.
So this statement you’re making is misleading, being that no black has said this on this post.
This would apply to Peanut in regard to her, claiming black women are more loyal to black men, than black men are loyal to black women.
“Not all of them are and when women hold on to this type of idea they find themselves hurt and shock when they encounter that black man that wants to hurt them and put them down.”
Again, not one black man on THIS POST has said, all black men are down for black women ( meaning dating them and not other races ).
So in the end, you’re creating an argument, that wasn’t even in dispute for the sole purpose of backing up your agenda, being you’re in a interracial relationship with a Hispanic and not a black man, you have every reason to stick up for interracial relationship.
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@Sondis
Oh, that is why @Sharina is going ham.
@Sharina, are you with a WHITE Hispanic or a BLACK Hispanic?
The funny thing is, when brothas date out, you don’t really hear from them, there is no real agenda behind it.
Yes, some of these black men hate black women to the core, but that is about it.
I wish black women could just be cool with their IR partners.
At the end of the day, it is very rare that a black woman is going to be persecuted for dating out to the level that BM get for dating WW.
But between the IR BW promoters & the fake loyal BW, I can see why a segment of black men want to parts.
Good day
And Sharina, be great with your IR husband, but leave the agenda at home.
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@Adonis
“Same & Similar are NOT the same”—Didn’t say they were
“Most women who are comment on blogs fall into those categories. If you are still in denial, just ask them to privately e-mail you there updated photos. Simple.”—I think it is fair that before you starting telling someone about there common sense that you grab some and stop with the petty games. You keep saying the majority but have yet to prove what the majority do, look like, or are. You at this point have an idea of what you think these women are etc. but instead of just showing something you rather make insults at me and all the while making this major azz of yourself. On top of that if you read my comment I simply said not all of them are and you are on rampant disagreement with that. Which shows you believe all of them are in my book.
“I am not making that argument that non-BW are intrinsically better.”—I did not say you were so you can hold the projections for later thank you.
“It is mostly not their fault for this, because your environment/culture & socio-economic standing of your community play into this.”—More assumptions of what my environment /culture or socio-economic standing is. Ok more projection here.
“What is YOUR theory for their singleness?”—My theory is simply poor men choice. Men who acknowledge them because they look good, but can never intellectually keep up with them (sorry but this is not just black men either). Men that are intimidated by success of said women (and yes this is still an issue) and refuse to even approach them or give them a chance. My favorite though for black women is the men that believe the stereotypes and don’t even bother. As I remember one black man saying black women are too high maintenance and would make him broke (not on this blog though).
“One, if you see this fat woman OR ANY OTHER fat woman romantically linked to a dude in his Mercedes or any other high-end luxury vehicle, snap a picture.”—You misunderstand. My friend does not need said man to buy her a Mercedes. She has one. She works for the company.
“Since this phenomenon is more common where you live, this should not be a problem.”—Where did I say it was common where I live? Tsk tsk now…no putting words in my mouth. What I said and have been saying is that things are not this cut and try and follows the point of what you think or believe. Each situation is different and people love and want each other for reasons that can not be marked on paper. My friends experience was nothing more than an example and I am sure hers is not the only one. I also said what you want In a woman is not what every man wants or even the majority. You can only speak for yourself and those men who have divulged this to you.
I have to pick up my daughter and when continue a response then.
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“Adonis
@Sondis
Oh, that is why @Sharina is going ham.
@Sharina, are you with a WHITE Hispanic or a BLACK Hispanic?
The funny thing is, when brothas date out, you don’t really hear from them, there is no real agenda behind it.
Yes, some of these black men hate black women to the core, but that is about it.
I wish black women could just be cool with their IR partners.
At the end of the day, it is very rare that a black woman is going to be persecuted for dating out to the level that BM get for dating WW.
But between the IR BW promoters & the fake loyal BW, I can see why a segment of black men want to parts.
Good day
And Sharina, be great with your IR husband, but leave the agenda at home.”
To be perfectly honest, Adonis. I really don’t think she would answer that question honestly or is even being honest about her claim that he is a “black Hispanic” It would just prove that she wanted someone as close to white as possible.
She has agenda written all over her rants, so i seriously doubt she is really being honest about anything after her insults that she initiated towards me.
Now, i did retaliate and stoop to her level, i will acknowledge that much but she was the 1st to draw blood. So that says a lot about her credibility in regards to her being honest and not lying to back her agenda.
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@ Adonis
Before I leave.
If you had read anything I said prior instead of jumping the band wagon then you would clearly note that I said as clear as day (to those that can read and comprehend) that people should date who the heck they want to. I have stood by that in this thread and others. So what nonsense are you even talking about. What agenda is there? Spend more time coming up with a better debate and less time trying to assume something about me.\
Good day.
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and since Sondis’s debates are so weak I won’t even bother to ask him to do better.
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“Sharina
and since Sondis’s debates are so weak I won’t even bother to ask him to do better.”
That’s odd, you’ve been “debating” with me for several days and all of a sudden, my debates are weak? That’s an excuse, being what i said had a ring of truth. Typical of someone like you.
I’m done with you…
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D, yes, well said, and I wanted to imply in my statement , that putting white peolple out of the movement and being able to express among themselves , angers and indignations, and have conversations meant for black people , was a positive thing…especialy back then
And here is the crucial and key things to absorb from back then into now,
remember how there was this division of concepts back then of MLK and Malcolm X?
and now, we look back and take the great things from each?
Back then, the black nationalists would be very hard on MLK, and would say bad things and put his position down…because they beleived in their position , which had great things too, like all what Malcolm X represented, who was a man who was in philisophical motion and changed midway in his life…which should never be forgotton…its ok to change your position
Its in that drama back then, that on the black nationalist side , in the process of forming its agenda, there were these off shoot, smaller agendas, and some did and are doing great damage
Its easy to see that with the good intentions of the SNCC paper above , stating very valid reasons why white people should be excluded , that an extended agenda from that , but seperate from the main points, is all black people should be loyal to each other and not sleep with white people…an agenda doomed from the start
Its easy to see , that with the black nationalist position , that implied MLK is out of touch, and the old school, that the older generation of black artists, were wrong with how they did business with white people, and were shucking and jiving and Armstrong became a target…and they rightfully looked on black face as racist, but didnt want to understand that all black entertainers had to wear black face to go in front of white audiences…they mixed up the stereytypes like jim c oon , who did a jig with master Juba, who invented tap and after his artistry was recognised , he didnt have to use black face to survive
Just as we look back and recognise MLK and Malcolm X had valuable lessons for us all, we can also go back and embrace Armstrong, the great tap artists
and , take the yoke off of the agenda that there is some hard fast rule that tells people who they can date or not..and that that has nothing to do with black awareness and pride
Yeah, see through white racism, talk about what charactoristics to watch out for, but , is it really anybodies business who someone else decides to sleep with ?
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peanut:
about the video you post, even I felt the Black woman was embarrassing saying all that stuff on national television…saying “they don’t want me,” in front of everyone is just embarrassing…I think she should have expressed herself in a more private or anonymous forum…
I saw the first 58 seconds of the video and stopped watching. Not because I was embarrassed but because I felt sad watching her. Inadvertently, this has brought her to the attention of men all over the world and i’m sure she aint lonely anymore.
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@Sondis
The weaker the debate the more likely I am to engage. As for as truth you are simply assuming until you think you find a weakness. That is not debating that is an act of desperation. Try not to confuse the two.
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When I return home I will respond to Adonis’ s acts of desperation and perhaps he will be done too.
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@Bulanik,
I just mean i rarely have conversations with other people who have a global perspective…so when i do, it is really nice.
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Sharina:
“The weaker the debate the more likely I am to engage. As for as truth you are simply assuming until you think you find a weakness. That is not debating that is an act of desperation. Try not to confuse the two.”
You mean when you were the 1st to insult me by calling me an ass in more ways than one?, You mean that type of desperation? Yeah, that’s what i thought you meant, had to clear that up for myself.
Have a nice day 🙂
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@ Phoebe, yes, I understood that part.
But I was asking and would like to know was what that particular “global” perspective is, as there are commenters from all parts of the world here.
I am just interested in understanding what was you thought refreshing or unusual in Ebonymonroe’s commentary.
(Just a question 😀 )
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Nice try, but no. Lol
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Well, ok–i’m a little biased (lol)…
I’ve always been interested in the Black British experience. So that perspective is very meaningful to me–even though it is only one part of the entire global perspective–i recognize that as well.
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its about not being with the immediates just because i reckon nuclear you say
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Yes, perhaps just a tiny, little bit biased, Phoebeprunelleo! lol.
There have been a couple of black British commenters who have shared here over the last couple of years.
I fear we may not have been the right type 😀
Good to know.
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@ Adonis
Continued
“So, this Nigerian man either has an angle for this fat woman, or that is what he believes that he can reasonably get on the market”—No, considering his ability to travel (as is hers) there is no other angle that he liked her and wanted her, but what I find odd is someone loving another has to be an angle according to you.
“I thought so.”—I would hope so. I never assume to think for men or women beyond myself.
“First of all, I don’t even believe you are telling the truth.”—Don’t remember asking you to believe me but the odd thing is you expect what you say to be taken at face value. Funny how that works right?
“they might have a poor disposition about men in general.”(No, most women I know simply prefer a smart intelligent black man) (those are not in abundance).
– they might have subpar parents (Nope. Most of the women I know come from middle class black families that are overachievers).
– they might be busy & dating is not a priority (at one time that was the case but as of late).
– they take their mating pool for granted (perhaps but one wants what they want).
– they might be well known LOOSE women (no again)
– they might choose irresponsible, non-committal men (the most common culprit)—I agree this is the most common culprit, but it is not one that can be determined on a first date. Plus the women I know are no nonsense and are not the type to invest in men of this caliber.
“These women have choices & options. That is on you.”—Why is it on me what their choices and options are? Can you stop projecting on me? It is creepy.
“Are you telling me, NO MAN wants these high quality women?”— I believe I said they are not presented with plenty of men and these type women are only interested in black men not any MEN.
“The reason why you are RUNNING from this part of my comment is because if WE got to the BOTTOM of why these “great” women are single, we would realize, men have little to do with it.”—How can I run from something I have yet to have a chance to respond to? I never said men had all to do with it (that is you putting words in my mouth. I said men were part of it, but never what part.
“Advocating for other women who make poor choices in men puzzles me.”—Please quote in full where I advocated for other women to do anything other than to date quality men?
“I am assuming these women are of quality, tick most of the boxes.”—I would say only 2 of those women are of quality. The others are lacking in different ways, but my uncles wanted them so…
“Which you are very vague about all three of these scenarios. Whatever”—And the purpose of me gutting and displaying their relationship is what? Regardless of what you believe they made choices about what they wanted and you can’t change that. It is not your choice and it is not you yet you are mad because what they wanted is not in line with what you believe they should want?
“You just proved my point. Best available man who was willing to commit. But more attractive men can have the vag if things get rocky.”—I never went into detail why so not sure how it magically proved your point, but I find it telling how quick you are to assume is less attractive in some sense. LOL
“You are just arguing just to argue. Tap-dancing”—No. gave an opinion which was challenged. Simple as that. If you don’t like a challenge then stop giving an opinion.
“@Sharina, are you with a WHITE Hispanic or a BLACK Hispanic?”—Nice of you to ask me and not assume (though short lived), but considering I have said time and time again what he is I will not continue a repeat.
“The funny thing is, when brothas date out, you don’t really hear from them, there is no real agenda behind it.”—Actually there is a site where black men are raving about dating white women, or you can just check youtube.
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I actually have to WORK today so did not have a chance to read thru everything. @BR..I will have to respond to you later. But I did want to briefly respond to this point by Sharina
”
Sharina
@ Shady_Grady
If you’re happy in your relationship you’re not worrying about what other people are doing.”—I agree but many of the individuals who find themselves upset about any type of relationship are not in one. SO the question becomes…is it the fact that it is a irr or is it the relationship in general?
”
Yes, many of the people , regardless of race, who are po’d about IR relationships or anybody being in a relationship are IMO just bitter because they themselves are not in one and want to be (not necessarily an IRR but ANY good relationship). That becomes very obvious from some of the comments here. If you either have someone you’re happy with OR don’t have someone but are honestly happy alone, in my experience, you generally aren’t running around hyperventilating about the threat of THEM stealing your man or your women.
Of course I think even among people who are relatively happy in their personal lives there may be a twinge of annoyance if/when they see one of “their” men/women with someone of a different race but that’s only because most of us have been raised in a pretty racist society. That feeling should not be ignored but it’s not something I would celebrate either.
People get together for all sorts of messed up reasons. Anyone who does so out of self-hatred or worship of lighter skin or fetishization of the darker other, well I feel sorry for them. But it’s not my business. As people have noted, life is too short. The threat of IR relationships is most acutely felt by people who already feel marginalized for one reason or the other and rather than do work to improve themselves would prefer to place blame for their romantic/personal situation on what other people are doing. It’s only human nature and it’s not by any means restricted to IRR discussions.
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@ Shady_Grady
Very well said and I agree.
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v8driver,
“@solesearch you notion of wp as some benign socialiological construct disturbs me as seriously wrong.”
huh? Is this a joke?
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Shady, anybody who can hit me with a Miles Davis quote , has got my attention..I have an observatioon on Pharoh Sanders and that era I havent formulated yet…but, ill get to you on that….
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Sharina said:
“@ Shady_Grady
“Very well said and I agree.”
__ __ __
Ditto!
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http://www.mit.edu/~thistle/v9/9.01/6blackf.html
Abagond , Im afraid the answers to your questions, and why its almost a script for the diologue we see all over here and the other threads is right here…its why political agendas on all sides can bring pain way into the future
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@Sharina
What you are trying to do is taking what MIGHT be an exception to what I & others say is the general norm in dating & relationships, and running with it.
The fat girl who works at Mercedes, you will never see this woman romantically linked & riding in a man’s luxury car.
I know that breaks your heart, but men work hard to achieve abundance in finances not to share it a PRECIOUS or Roseanne.
Even rich guys with fatty fetishes don’t do it.
————-
I ask for your husband’s ethnicity, because who you married provides insight on what you are on, and why you are being argumentative without bringing up valid counterpoints. Their is a rhyme & reason to it.
————-
And that is 100% on Black Women. Men are just presenting the poor choice, because will take the vag, even though we know you ain’t worth anything more.
Meaning that these women are difficult to deal with. Good to know.
Why can’t these women, every time an attractive man reveals himself, APPROACH THESE MEN.
Obviously, these women got it going on (sarcasm), but can’t start a conversation with the men they like.
Men cannot even make that excuse about women not checking for them, for whatever reason.
It just means that said man in unattractive & not worth the trouble.
Your friends and the women you know gotta take 100% responsibility on why they are single & don’t want to be.
Black women need better PR.
Any woman does not need a Mercedes, the point is, she does not have the attractiveness to snag a man who has one, see her riding around in HIS Mercedes in the passenger side. That is reserves for pretty, in-shape women.
Some Fat women do well in the dating arena despite their size, so it is not really an issue.
But at the end of the day, if men could get a pretty, fit woman, that is the default preference.
————–
It is funny how I, a straight man, can probably go to these women cities & find intelligent black men for them to date, no problem.
This just goes back to being pro-active.
Also, these women might be OLD.
Get a NIGERIAN doctor type BM. Find out where they congregate & talk to them.
This is huge because, instead of focusing on your education & being a LOOSE woman, you should be spending your best years (18-30) looking for a husband.
But that makes too much sense & black women have narrow views on what is attractive at these ages.
Again, that has nothing to do with men. And when your dating requirement are hella stringent, you are going to be single for a while.
Agreed
Meaning that, they spend their best years with these kinds of men, and now in their LATE twenties, EARLY thirties, they are checking for the black men they didn’t want earlier.
Self-inflicted dating problems
Being silly now. I know how to better to debate your bullsh*t in the future.
What you reluctantly concede is that they had multiple opportunities (10 or more).
Also, they are limiting their dating options, which is silly, but YOU want what YOU want.
Also, I can guarant-d@mn-tee, that these women don’t put in the work to get men or to be Male-friendly.
And we already established that they don’t check for the men who will give them a commitment.
So, they should just get some cats & be done with it.
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Adonis:
well said brotha, you’re not going to get anywhere with Sharina.
We’ve seen her type before, her sole purpose is to fight black men to the death and fight us tooth and nail. She can do this, being she has a Hispanic husband, so its no skin off her back.
She not even a great debater at that. lol
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@sondis
It is women like her who are bad PR for the marginally good black women.
We are just sparring right now, I do not expect any productive conclusion to come out of this.
She should just spend the time she has debating us, learning how to give her husband better head.
Good Day
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“Adonis:
“It is women like her who are bad PR for the marginally good black women.”
Agreed 110%
We are just sparring right now, I do not expect any productive conclusion to come out of this.” I’m glad you’re not taking anything sharina says, seriously.
“She should just spend the time she has debating us, learning how to give her husband better head.”
ROLF! She does have a lot of time on her hands for a married woman to be on a blog, every single day for hours at a time and debate black men. I guess her Hispanic husband and kids, doesn’t’ require much quality time.
How do i know that Sharina is on every day all day? My iPhone gets email notices and it see who is commenting on all the articles.
I barely comment on this blog, every now and again I’ll have free time, this is why i disappear and reappear on this blog. I do have a life and as such i do tend to it, being I’m not on it every single day.
Sharina is obviously a hater of black men, like a few other black women on this blog, she tried to hide it but fails, miserably.
There are some black women on this blog, that are not as i never seem them, bash black men or talk about black men in any negative, capacity.
Yes, I’ve seen black women on this blog, give “constructive” criticism about black men but nothing with such malice as sharina.
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@ Adonis
I consider and started to go quote for quote responding to all of what you said and then I decided not to. It is not worth it when your post is full of what YOU think, assume, or believe. You lack any proof but are quick to push this as the norm. Yet are arguing with me over some small amount of people that do not fit into what you believe is the absolutely truth.
Secondly, did you or did you not make the claim that if said women had all of the qualities you claimed then these “kneegrows” will be lined up? So why is it now that you have all this extra stipulations you want to throw into the mix? Now you want to throw in exceptions but why not put those in the first time I said I disagreed with you?
Now on to those things I will address
“Also, these women might be OLD.”—Oh how sad it is when 29 is old.
“Meaning that, they spend their best years with these kinds of men, and now in their LATE twenties, EARLY thirties, they are checking for the black men they didn’t want earlier.”—Nope. They spent those years searching for viable men. Sorry but they were not in abundance like your checklist claimed.
“Meaning that, they spend their best years with these kinds of men, and now in their LATE twenties, EARLY thirties, they are checking for the black men they didn’t want earlier.).”—Wrong. They do not have multiple opportunities which is what I have been getting at from the start. I agree their restrictiveness play a part, but it does not change much in line of this abundance of men.
“Also, I can guarant-d@mn-tee, that these women don’t put in the work to get men or to be Male-friendly.”—Sure you can. Just about as much as I can guarantee I am the dalai lama.
“And we already established that they don’t check for the men who will give them a commitment.”—Where was that established? In your assumptive imagination? If I am not mistaken I said they are no nonsense meaning they are not looking for non-serious relationships.
“Being silly now. I know how to better to debate your bullsh*t in the future.”—You have not been able to debate it yet, so good luck in the future. On top of that if you are constantly saying YOU then how is it being silly. None of what you said applies to me and yet you are constantly throwing your ideas of me at me. You don’t know me and when you have specific stuff to say to a person without knowing them then I call that a bit of projection.
When you are done making assumptions and telling me what you believe (which you are entitled to by the way) I will tell you in detail what it is I am actually getting at if you have not already figured it out. 🙂
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@ Adonis and Sondis
Bitter black men unite. ROFL
How does it feel knowing how low you have to stoop to feel good about yourselves?
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And another thing….I can respond to comment son my phone. It is the joy of technology you know.
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@v8driver;
If your only reason to meet and date with black women is the fact that they are black, then you are choosing them because they are black. If you make your choice by their race, as if it is the only thing that matters, then you are making your choice based on race and that is racist.
What I said was this: if anyone chooses his/her companion/date/spouse simply by racial standards, that individual is a racist because the race is the Thing.
If you love somebody for what ever she/he is, regardless of the color of her/his skin, that is ok. BUT if you ditch people simply because they are not the “right color”, then you are racist. If you exclude people because they are the “wrong” color, you are a racist. It really is this simple.
Racism is tricky because we do not always recognize it, specially if and when we think it is a “positive” thing. By this I mean that the black women have been cast in the certain role in the american culture. There are clear expectations what they are and how they are, how they look and sound, the way they are supposed to speak and behave, and of course the over sexation.
Instead of seeing black women as women, the american culture has certain roles which the black women must play. They are certainly sexual objects for men. The image of black women in music videos, pictures etcetc. is a clear proof of this.
Now, if you say that you, as a man, not just as a white man but as a man, prefer black women, “like more” black women, why it is? Is it simply matter of apples over oranges or is it because you have learned to look at the black women in a certain way and expect a certain behavior from them?
If you would see black women as women first and foremost, you would simply talk about women, not BLACK women. But you were specific that you like BLACK women. That is a racial preference. You define your liking according to their racial definition. You identify them as a group by their racial features which, like it or not, have been given certain traits in your culture. So when you say I like black women, you like what Black Woman means in the context of the culture.
If it was: “I like women out of whom most have happened to been black”, then there might be no racism. But you stated that you like BLACK women. That is the definition. That is the condition. It was not Nice women, Smart women, Intellectual women, not even Sexy women, BUT specificly Black women. That is what I meant. Anyone who chooses his/her companion solely by the color of their skin is a racist.
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@ Sam: I like that comment.
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@ Sam : Excellent points. You said what I was thinking.
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@ Sondis
I will make this my last comment to you.
“We’ve seen her type before, her sole purpose is to fight black men to the death and fight us tooth and nail.”—Just because I don’t agree that every black man is some gift to the world does not mean I am fighting against black me.
Name one time I said anything negative against all black men?
But you know what you and adonis can enjoy giving each other handjobs and rejoicing over you many delusions and assumptions.
Goodbye. 🙂
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And Abagond you can not say they did not ask for it with those loaded assumptions. What I said was fairly mild compared to what was said to me.
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hot dam, its getting heated and personal.
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Sharina
@ Sondis
“I will make this my last comment to you.”
I can give a rats ass, if you ever comment to me.
“Just because I don’t agree that every black man is some gift to the world does not mean I am fighting against black me.”
The fact that you don’t agree, that every black man is some gift to the world, wasn’t in dispute or my argument but its obvious that you’re making it a point to “project” that onto what my actual, argument was.
“but you know what you and adonis can enjoy giving each other handjobs and rejoicing over you many delusions and assumptions.
Goodbye.”
The lack of class in this statement is what i expect from you, Sharina. Your credibility is “0” This time, i will be the classy one in the debate and refuse to stood down to your level of immaturity.
My last comment to you, ( if you actually stick to your word and will not respond to me any further, which i doubt as you always have to have the last word. ) Good riddance! 🙂
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“Many black men in the movement were interested in controlling
black women’s sexuality. Bell hooks comments that during the Black
Liberation Movement of the 1960s, “black men overemphasize[d] white
male sexual exploitation of black womanhood as a way to explain their
disapproval of inter-racial relationships.” It was, however, no
contradiction of their political views to have inter-racial
relationships themselves. Again, part of “freedom” and “manhood” was
the right of men to have indiscriminate access to and control over any
woman’s body.”
This is from that article I brought in from a “Feminist Black Liberation ” paper….Let me say, Im not endorsing the feminist black liveration movement ,I know this doesnt represent black men , but, it is a painful indication of exactly the truth Im talking about , of flawed political agendadas floating around with the good ones…it goes on to name names, I already knew about this kind of thinking on all sides , and , both sides of this paper are political agendas
You cant deny these sources now, Abagond , the black political agenda against interracial sex, has roots in the sixties , and the same with the agendas against Armstrong and Tap dancing….and the subsaquent backlash…I actualy left the USA because of the racial devide and uptight feminist attitudes , not the rights that they deserved, the uptight about female sexuality attitudes…
showing these origins, the SNCC paper and the Black Feminist paper, only reminds me of what I knew back then , up to that point , the racial devide was mostly white , except for Garvey and the Nation of Islam, after the 60’s, there was an element in the black political narritive that laid its own pavement on the 10 lane mack truck highway of the racial devide in the USA
I actualy think if black people lifted the yoke off their backs of both these agendas , they could look each other in the cybor eyes (most of this is internet blow hard ) and actualy be able to unify like never before
Sharina, you dont deserve to be implicated as a schill for the white man in any way….
the name of the tap dancer who choreographed for Motown, is Cholly Atkins , I knew it , but misspelled it
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“Adonis
@Sondis
Oh, that is why @Sharina is going ham.
@Sharina, are you with a WHITE Hispanic or a BLACK Hispanic?”
Linda says,
Thank you for reminding me about something I totally disagreed with, that Abagond said —
in a sense, that’s true but you got to call them something, Abagond, since naming people by individual country would be too difficult for the American race game (since America is so big on having to Label everyone within it’s borders)
and by the way, there is NO such thing as white or black Hispanics..
it’s bad enough that the USA government has bogus, interchangeable categories on it’s Census but you can’t just leave “Mestizo or mixed-race Spanish speaking” people out in the cold because you’re trying to fit them into a political concept and trying to “one drop” them into categories that don’t fit.
the term you should have used Abagond is “Latino” — If you want to give them a “Generic” name that makes “one drop” labeling easier, then “Latino” fits the bill, a hella better
than “white” or “black” because those 2 terms DO NOT describe most Hispanics/Latinos –especially since Native American Indians are the biggest contributors to the Latin American gene pool.
I’ve noticed it’s mostly black people who say “Hispanic” is not a race, it’s an “Ethnicity” (because trust, white Americans are Not trying to claim Hispanics/Latinos) — well same thing can be said about “African Americans” — that term represents a shared “Ethnicity and culture” — not a Race
most African descendants in America run with label: “black or African American” anyway, even if they look like Soledad O’Brien or Suzanne Malveaux
http://www.lazygirls.info/Suzanne_Malveaux/With_Twin_Sister_Suzette_Tq2yZdg
and “According to Ancestry.com, the average African American is 65 percent sub-Saharan African, 29 percent European and 2 percent Native American.”
(and of course, other studies have different numbers, with European btw 19-30% depending on location of the black population and with people who carry more than 40-50% European DNA removed from the studies)
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/05/genetic-variation-among-african-americans/
so, if African Americans are “black”, then Spanish-speaking Mestizos/ Mulattos should get to be “Hispanic” or Latino.
my 2 cents.
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“if you actually stick to your word and will not respond to me any further, which i doubt as you always have to have the last word.”—For once you have something right, but when you start to talk about who lacks class. Remember you are the one that called me a b**ch. 🙂
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“If you make your choice by their race, as if it is the only thing that matters, then you are making your choice based on race and that is racist.”
******************
@ Sam
Your rendering of the “R” word would make *ANYONE* eligible to be a racist … which is inherently problematic…
So … if I say that I love beige trousers way more than I enjoy wearing black, white, yellow and red pants does this make me a COLORIST too?
No!
Simply having a color PREFERENCE does not *always* equate to being a racist. Sometimes it just simply means I prefer orange walls to green walls, or a grey car instead of a purple car.
I disagree with your contention. Preference is preference. And yes, while some preferences do seem to overlap into the boundaries of what is racist, clearly not all preferences are racist.
Preference in and of itself does not equal racism! It is NOT racism.
MISTREATMENT, OPPRESSION, INJUSTICE, VIOLENCE, marginalization and the like based on SKIN COLOR equals RACISM
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@ B.R.
Thank you.
@ Linda
“my 2 cents”—Valued none the less.
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Sharina
“if you actually stick to your word and will not respond to me any further, which i doubt as you always have to have the last word.”—For once you have something right, but when you start to talk about who lacks class. Remember you are the one that called me a b**ch.
Actually, i called you that, in response to you, insulting me by saying and i quote:
“You’re an ass ( in more ways than one ) ”
Now what? you’re going to say you didn’t draw first blood and insult me first?
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Latinos are true represents of the word “Interracial”
There is a small fraction of actual homogenous (ie Pure) “white European” Latinos and same with “black African” Latinos… DNA and phenotype clearly show most Latinos are mixed race Mestizos Spanish, with combinations of other European ethnicities, Native American Indian, and African (also Arab or E Asian)
even though it is common for Latinos to call themselves “white”, even if their skin-tone is brown, depending on the country (or the person asking), most will acknowledge their mixed-race ancestry — there is a difference between self-identification and “actual genetics”
Lets look at the “whitest” South Americans: the Argentinians
“Argentineans carried a large fraction of European genetic heritage in their Y-chromosomal (94.1%) and autosomal (78.5%) DNA, but their mitochondrial gene pool is mostly of Native American ancestry (53.7%) ; instead, African heritage was small in all three genetic systems (<4%)."
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/how-argentina-became-white/
ie Y = granddaddy was white, X /Mitochondrial = grandmommy was Native Indian (or African depending on country)
Here's Uruguay (another majority "white" South American country)
"Based on 18 autosomal markers and one X-linked marker, we estimated 82% European, 8% Amerindian, and 10% African contributions to their ancestry, while from seven mitochondrial DNA site-specific polymorphic markers and sequences of hypervariable segment I, we determined 49% European, 30% Amerindian, and 21% African maternal contributions."
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.20520/abstract
There is a reason "Latinos" look (phenotype) the way they do and it did not all come from Spain or Europe
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@ Peanut
“LOL…that wasn’t nice.”—Trust me when I say I did not say nearly what I was going to say out of respect for myself and others.
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@Linda
I hear you, but skin color does matter, hence, why I brought it up.
Ancestry dot com is on some BS with the sub-Saharan African term. It is a BS term.
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sondis
Sharina
“You’re an ass ( in more ways than one ) ”
Now what? you’re going to say you didn’t draw first blood and insult me first?
Perfect time to not comment to me anymore, being Sharina just got caught with her very own words. lol silence when asked her this question. Typical when someone is wrong, they refuse to respond. 🙂
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@ Sondis
Do a time stamp showing where I called you an ass. I just did a search of this page and not one of my posts pulled that up.
In fact his is the post I made to you. I don’t deny I spoke first.
“@ sondis
If a person is really serious about a relationship then why in hell should their be a check list. That is probably why the d*mn divorce rates are so high. No substance in relationships.
You are the main one advocating on this blog for black love and pitching fits because of photos or videos of interracial relationships, yet when pointed out part of the problem for why black love does not always workout you fly off into the men bashing corner.
Sorry but men are part of the problem and I think women really just need to find love and a valuable relationship regardless of his color or status.
Do women have things they need to work on? Oh yea but most of that is usually downside pretty quickly as women mature faster than men. ”
So where did I call you an ass again? Not sure where you got that quote from but ok.
Anyway I need to be done. Just not worth it.
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@ Sondis
“Perfect time to not comment to me anymore, being Sharina just got caught with her very own words. lol silence when asked her this question. Typical when someone is wrong, they refuse to respond.”—If I am silent then 1 of many things are happening. 1. tucking in the kids, 2. researching your claim, 3. f*cking my husband, or 4. whatever I want. But if you were right about it then I have no qualms with admitting my wrongs.
But again I need to stop this. It has gone too far and my spiritual well being is far more important . Please do continue if you so wish.
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“Sharina
@ Sondis
Do a time stamp showing where I called you an ass. I just did a search of this page and not one of my posts pulled that up.
In fact his is the post I made to you. I don’t deny I spoke first.”
You know damn well, abagond deleted the insulting comment that you made to me first and then deleted my responding, insult back to you, so cut the BS and stop acting innocent!
Typical of you to try and lie about not insulting me. Becuase you knew, abagond, deleted those insults!
yeah, good idea to be done with it, being you just got caught in a lie.
You do that…
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“But again I need to stop this. It has gone too far and my spiritual well being is far more important . Please do continue if you so wish.”
Little too late for this, don’t you think?
You were a willing participant in me and idonis’s heated debates. So don’t go all getting righteous on the blog as you are all, holier than thou!
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“Adonis
@Linda
I hear you, but skin color does matter, hence, why I brought it up.
Ancestry dot com is on some BS with the sub-Saharan African term. It is a BS term.”
Linda says,
I agree, “sub-Saharan African term” is a BS term
My post was geared more to Abagond and not to you… I was saying your sentence reminded me about the bone I needed to pick with Abagond for totally
dismissing Hispanics/Latinos because they don’t fit into American’s bogus concept of race
or rather, trying to “force” Latinos into a false black or white Narrative… that shoe does not fit.
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That is false Linda and not true across the board. Latin and Brazilian countries have the same history as the United States. In countries like Brazil, Colombia, Dominican republic and Venezuela there are plenty of non-mixed Black people. In Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Puerto Rico and elsewhere there are plenty of direct European descendents. It’s true that extensive mixing has created different groups in Latin nations, but ‘Latino’ is not some racial term or unique sub-set of people. I also highly disagree with you that mixed race Latinos calling themselves ‘white’ doesnt mean anything.
Many dominicans I know are as black as Michelle Obama, so let’s stop the bull ok!
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@ sondis
“You know damn well, abagond deleted the insulting comment that you made to me first and then deleted my responding, insult back to you, so cut the BS and stop acting innocent!”—My comment never to through moderation. If you look above you will see where I asked abagond about it and after that he decided to delete it and yours.
On top of that…to my nature I always on this blog try to say azz, so I knew then that your quote was suspicious, but deleted or not if it had posted you could find it in your inbox. With date and time stamp.
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@Sharina, @Sondis, @Adonis
I promised myself I wouldn’t get involved but: why are you arguing about whom is at fault in a hypothetical relationships/courting events involving people that exist only in your minds? You may as well try to play the a card game with each of you following your own house rules, then getting mad at each other for not using the same rules.
You can debate history, science, and politics because there are facts, rules that one must accept as a priori before proceeding (otherwise you just get magical thinking). However, none of you know what BlackMan#0267b44a and BlackWMan#7c84590d are thinking, or what they look like and how this affects their relationship prospects, because they DON’T EXIST!
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“Alicia,
Latin and Brazilian countries have the same history as the United States.
In countries like Brazil, Colombia, Dominican republic and Venezuela there are plenty of non-mixed Black people”
Linda says
Alicia, please… are you from the Caribbean or Latin America…well, I am
and I’m not going have some American sit back and tell me about my History, so you can stop the bull.. OK
Most of you have no clue what Latin America is all about, that’s why most Americans think Cubans are “white” and did not realize there is Sizeable black and mixed-race population.
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@ Sondis
There is a difference between a heated debate and a bunk of personal attacks. In the end all it was was personal attacks and empty assumptions.
As for the supposed deleted comments. my comment on that is in moderation, but if said comment did post it would be in your inbox and I usually use the term azz on these blogs not a**.
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Also, mexicans, guatamalens, salvadoreans are heavily native American in terms of racial background/mixture. The term is mestizo and are very different from puerto ricans, Dominicans and others. I believe mixed race Hispanics embrace the term ‘Latino’ because of embarresment in terms of their history. I know Mexicans and salvadoreans are embarrassed about the heavily native part of their history, because of European colonization and the brazilians, Dominicans and others re VERY embaressed about any sort of African descended connections.
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Relationships sink or sail on a case-by-case basis, you cannot make such sweeping statements with any honesty whatsoever.
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@D.
“Relationships sink or sail on a case-by-case basis, you cannot make such sweeping statements with any honesty whatsoever.”—I agree and I kind of thought that is what I was saying.
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Alicia,
you aren’t saying anything that relates to what I said to Abagond… you are just repeating what I said…. Most Latino are mixed-race
and should not be “one dropped” into an either “white” or “black” category because it does not fit.
you just rephrase my posts… and in case you missed the studies about South America, they are ALSO mixed with Native America… especially Paraguay, Peur, and Chile… it’s not cookie cutter clean like you are attempting to make.
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“Sharina
@ Sondis
There is a difference between a heated debate and a bunk of personal attacks. In the end all it was was personal attacks and empty assumptions.
As for the supposed deleted comments. my comment on that is in moderation, but if said comment did post it would be in your inbox and I usually use the term azz on these blogs not a**.”
More lies on top of lies. Please, just stop while you’re ahead. You already made yourself look silly with your initial personal attack on me, now you’re trying to clean it up and act innocent.
You were attacking me and idonis and making assumptions. I did attack and i have admitted to that but YOU have not admitting to initially insulting me by calling saying, “you’re an ass and in more ways than one” nice attempt at back peddling to save face but again, you’ve failed miserably
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Linda, being that this is a public message board I will not discuss such personal things such as my background. The history of the Americas is the same across the board. European conquest, native subjugation, importation of blacks from Africa. Just because mixing was so rapid in some Latin nations does not negate the facts that MANY non-mixed blacks, whites, native americans and others are just as prevalent. While many Dominicans in my city are BLACK, I used to work for a company that had many people from Latin America. All of them where WHITE. You couldn’t tell the difference between them and any tall, blonde/light haired, blue eyed White American. Brazil is heavily mixed race, but it is also heavily white with a large portion of blacks.
Stop the bull ok. Sammy Sosa has no more in common with a white spaniard than I do with a White British b/c of LANGUAGE.
What if Caribbean blacks started calling themselves ‘English’.?
Phooeey
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@ Linda: I have a Cuban young man in high school, they were racist because of the colorism issue, me being dark skinned and them light skinned. I am very much aware of Africans in the diaspora being dispersed pretty much everywhere. I dated a Puerto Rican, again the colorism issue arose with his family not liking me because of my dark skin. But, I agree there is much to learn. I even learned there were black people in Phillipines and Mexico.
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*I dated a Cuban young man*
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Linda,
Stop Lying! There are plenty of white and black Latinos. Many of those so-called ‘mestizos’ are also full blooded Native Indian. I used to live around central Americans and just like Dominicans with blackness, central Americans are embaressed about being mixed with or heavily Indian.
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You are discussing the effects of “La Raza”.. that’s why most Latinos downplay or deny their Native or African roots..
but Latin Americas history is NOT identical to the USA…the Spanish used the Concept of “La Raza” to solve their Native and African “problem” — whereas, white America used Jim Crow and Apartheid…
apples and oranges…and has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
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@ Sondis
If you say so. *smh*
It is quite simple to find said quote. As I said if it posted then it can be found in your inbox.
So quote one assumption I made about you and Adonis first. All that you are saying I did can simply be found here and quoted. And never said I did not engage in personal attacks just said I am not going to continue.
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@ Linda
Do mind elaborating on “La Raza?” I am interested in learning more.
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you*
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I also dealt with white supremacy/anti-blackness with so-called Latinos Mary burrell. The fact that mixed Latinos mark off White is very significant, which Linda attempts to deny.
If you check out the documentary on Blacks in Latin America you will be shocked as its just like the US in terms of history and whites vs Blacks. The island is heavily WHITE with a lot of Blacks and mixed race. There are plenty of non-mixed so called ‘latinos’
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I was referring to countries like Cuba and brazil above.
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Alicia, you are not bringing up NOTHING new and this topic has already been discussed on the Appropriate threads.
If you read my posts, you notice I did not talk about Dominicans or Caribbean Latino — but I am Not surprised that someone was going to run in here and hold them up as Poster children of what Latinos are all about…
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“Alicia,
The fact that mixed Latinos mark off White is very significant, which Linda attempts to deny.”
Linda says
and Alica, DO not put words in my mouth because I already stated that most Latinos in call themselves “White” —
Linda@ even though it is common for Latinos to call themselves “white”, even if their skin-tone is brown, depending on the country (or the person asking), most will acknowledge their mixed-race ancestry — there is a difference between self-identification and “actual genetics”
speak your own mind and don’t try to speak mine for me — everyone here can read
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I did not. I mentioned many other nations in my posts. A very large percentage of so-called Latinos are of direct or primary Euro descent, (but they are not the ones represented among those immigrating to the US) a very large percentage from Brazil to Colombia to Venezuela are As black as the average Black American. Many mestizos also are actually fully native, particularly many Mexicans, salvadoreans, Peruvians and others.
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Alicia, first off, lets leave out Brazil because then we would have to include Suriname and Guyana… we are talking about majority Spanish-speaking countries.
and have said many times over in the past and now, most Latinos are genetically European with Native American and/or African admixture…
We are all aware that black people live in Latin America, but they are the minority population — not the majority,
and we also cannot Lump Latinos because different countries, have a different Racial/Ethnic populations… as you correctly stated but regardless of what these people “look like” — the majority are mixed-race
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@D
I was actually getting acquainted with the POVs & debate tactics these two women @Sharina & @peanut.
Notice that @DaJokah & @xPraetorious have left the comment building, once their BS got called out.
@Peanut knows that loyalty argument is BS, it is just it SOUNDS good on the surface, as long as you don’t dissect it
The truth is, their are many black men (different types, different socio-economic background) in America, big & small cities who love to date an below-average & better black woman & would give their lives for black women as long as his efforts would be appreciated.
But he is not attractive enough, so even though he gives you a commitment to taking care of family & woman, he doesn’t even exist.
And he doesn’t help the black woman’s Professional Victim, black male abuser/ignorer narrative.
Cause either black men are abusing black women or they are paying attention to light-skin or white women. Depending on the day & context.
Now, I would not call that loyalty, but their are many women who would find that valuable.
Now, @Sharina is just being contrarian just to be contrarian. Fake outrage.
She is trolling.
I am starting to believe that she is a Bed Wench for white males.
The Hispanic label is just a cover for Spanish dude passing for white.
And if the husband is black, does not mean she isn’t carrying on affairs with white males.
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I never said blacks or whites were a majority. I said there were very large percentages of both groups, as well as native Americans whom are not mixed throughout the countries.
hahaha@ Mexicans, Salvadoreans, Peruvians being mostly genetically European.
Hahaha, thanks for the laugh.
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Also, this question is NOT rhetorical,
But if The Lovings were a Black Man & a White Woman, would IR dating Still be outlawed?
Cause it seems like if it weren’t for rare love of a white male & a black woman,
Black men & white women would not get the half-azz hall pass it gets.
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and you can keep your sarcasm and you’re smarta’s comments to yourself
because even in Mexico, full blooded Native Americas are not the majority —
the majority are Mestizos, so why don’t you laugh your way to a genetic study.
Everything you said had absolutely nothing to do with my posts and what I was saying to Abagond.
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ABAGOND, will you be doing a topic on the government shutdown and the attack by Republicans on Obama?
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“Adonis,
I am starting to believe that she is a Bed Wench for white males.
The Hispanic label is just a cover for Spanish dude passing for white.
And if the husband is black, does not mean she isn’t carrying on affairs with white males.”
Adonis, don’t do it… don’t go there because you feel Sharina is being contrary.
she is not new to this blog, she’s been here quite awhile and her positions have not changed… she stated last year and the year before that her husband is Hispanic with black admixture…
don’t play the ugly “assumption” game..
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@Adonis
Rofl. You can make up as many theories about me and my life as you like ( I am sure you need the esteem boost) but it won’t change the fact that your checklist does not account for everyone.
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@ Linda
Thank you. 🙂
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Adonis,
What do you mean? A considerably larger portion ohm B/W IR couples involve a black male. Moreover, it seems to me based on the media and my experiences as a Black women, that white society views Black men with white or other raced women as an example that the black race lacks beautiful women and that bw are not wanted.
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@linda
I don’t mind being wrong. That is inevitable.
@Sharina
Basically you are conceding that it is true way more than it is not.
It is not practical to live your life based on the exception. Relying on miracles is not the business.
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@ Adonis
What I said and what you are trying to put in my mouth are two different things. But when you can show what you say as the majority, then I will concede. Until then you are just as free to have your opinion as I to have mine.
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@matari:
Not so. If we talk about the color of trousers it does not have the same connotations as humanbeings. If you like the color green and buy green shirts, that means you like green shirts and green. BUT when you say that you like only white/black women, you say something completely different. Why?
Because it is the color of the skin that defines ones race in USA particulary. You can not separate the color of the skin from race discussion in an enviroment where racism is still institutional and practised by the government and people too.
Even though it is well known that different races of humanbeings are cultural inventions which have nothing to do with the biology (there is only one human race on the planet biologically and that is a scientific fact) the cultural context is there. That is the reason why you are a racist if you declare one race = color of skin being better or more attractive than the other for what ever reason.
If you can not see a woman as a woman and just as a woman, without the epiteth of her “race”, you have a problem. If you see only a black/white woman, you do not see a woman, you see her racial identity and all that is connected to that in your culture.
I hope this clarifies what I am trying to say.
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@alicia
The media doesn’t believe that BS.
The MSmedia is created by whites for white survival & the Maintainence of white privileges.
So, that ideology is going to be pushed.
Now, I don’t have a specific reason why BM date out, but the part that women don’t want to acknowledge is that
women have a lot of agency in the choosing of what men they DO want romantically & what they don’t want.
Sometimes the non-black woman was the best/only choice.
But black women will throw this dude under the bus as if he overlooked all these beautiful, put together black women for a mediocre white woman.
Again, this does not fit into the black woman’s professional victim narrative. So, these scenario do not get highlighted
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If from your experience that is the majority then so be it, but to say this must be the majority for everyone…then you have to come up with some proof. Not just cause you day so.
All of what I said was based on my experience (i made this much very clear) and I do not apply my experience universal. Because each situation is and will always be different.
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*say
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Some BM date IR for the same reason some black women do and those reasons are varied. I honestly think Kim Kardashian and Kanye are a nice couple. Kim is beautiful, black friendly, and if she likes black men, as a black women I say cool!! I also think before the drama Khloe and Lamarr odom were cute too.
I honestly sometimes question, given how whites treat us and how we are treated under white supremacy, how black men can be so quick to pursue white, non-black Latinas and others, but I know many black women whom are open to IR dating so can’t say it’s a black male thing. Naturally I am partial to black men, but also find other races attractive. Heck, mixed race, tall Latino men to me are often attractive, as well as arab. Most white men are racist in my own experiences so I wont even go there.
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I don’t think it’s black men’s fault that the white media makes black male/white woman couples into media darlings and ignores any couple with a black woman in it because they have an agenda.
I also honestly believes white supremacy/racism/beauty standards push black men to be so open to pursuing white women.
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I should say SOME black men, just like their are some black women who prefer White.
Nothing is wrong with that as long as the majority are still dating black we could say.
The issue is the put downs on both sides.
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@alicia
I feel all of that, but I am highlighting fake outrage coming from the black woman’s side.
They are overstating their love for black men (@peanut) and try to guilt-trip black men into wanting black women who are low-value & are not committed to giving those black men the best relationship she can offer.
And they are not all the way honest about their dating preferences or mating value (@sharina) and the friends she uses as an example.
They make it seem like there are all these awesome black women being overlooked by self-hating black men who want nothing more than to taste the white woman’s sweet nectar.
It is not adding up.
I keep highlighting the black woman’s agency in all this, to move away from the victimhood some black women love to latch onto.
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@ Adonis
Still assuming? I never daid anything about self-hating black men, but do put whatever words you think you can in my mouth to attempt to discredit me.
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Said*
I find it so funny how you are so sure you know me and my friends. Instead of focusing on me..try addressing your claims.
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Lmao @ where this convo has gone.
Slow clap @ D and BR’s posts.
Can anyone answer this? How can BM on here, get mad at Black women for speaking about the hatred and prejudice they encounter from BM just because they’re BW. And then turn around and write short essays on how the MAJORITY of American BW are NO GOOD? You’re proving their point.
When they speak on their experiences, you say they made bad choices in men. But when it comes to BW you’ve dated who had bad characters, it’s not down to YOUR CHOICES, but evidence that the MAJORITY of American BW are no good.
You speak on the pros of dating non Black women, but whenever a Black woman in here is involved with a non Black man, you call her a bed wen(h???
When I lived in Atlanta, I met some of the most beautiful, most sweet, kind, loving, intelligent, glamorous, sistas I’ve ever come across. I actually only came across two fat people: one brotha and one sista. The rest of the sistas were shaped like Jessica Rabbit. They were classy, had charming southern values, they could throw down in the kitchen, they were polite, quick witted; I was really impressed with many of them. They had all the qualities that some BM in here, keep saying the MAJORITY of American BW don’t have.
From post to post, you’ve proven the point of the sistas in here, but you don’t even realise it.
And I can cosign what Peanut is saying. I’ve met many BW who would not consider dating interracially, they’re only interested in BM, but I’ve hardly ever come across the same with BM, so my experience does coincide with Peanut’s. Many BW definitely have a big sense of loyalty to BM. Although I think over the last couple of years, that has begun to change, because of all the propaganda notifying BW that they outnumber, that nearly 20% marry out, 30% have served, BM are less inclined to marry until much later in life compared to other male groups, blah, blah, blah; and basically telling BW they’re the least likely to get married because of this, if they don’t open up their dating options. But I remember a time when interracial relationships/marriage was a no go for almost all the BW I know, from UK, to the US, to the Caribbean. And the stats proved that at the time. So there is some truth to that. That is, in my humble opinion.
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@ Ebonymonroe
Hello Ms. Show stopper. 🙂
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“Alicia:
“If you check out the documentary on Blacks in Latin America you will be shocked as its just like the US in terms of history and whites vs Blacks. The island is heavily WHITE with a lot of Blacks and mixed race. There are plenty of non-mixed so called ‘latinos’”
I think i saw this one, is the host, Luis Gates Jr. ???
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@Sharina, Adonis, Sondis
This whole conversation shows how much there is a disconnect between black men and women. Both sides had some valid points…how it derailed to someone thinking that it was ok to essentially call someone a w**** because of adifference of opinion it is beyond me… Anyway….
On topic, when it comes to interracial dating both men and women need to stop being hypocritical about their views. If you encourage bw to date men of different ethnic backgrounds then it shouldn’t be a problem when bm do the same. The thing where black men marry white/light-skin women to show they’ve made it well….that happens with ALL types ethnic men. Isn’t that what they call a “trophy wife”?? Honestly, I think it says a lot more of what those men’s perspective on what women are, than race. Let’s say society standards of beauty was petite women with copper skin tones, long curly hair, and eyes with an epicanthic fold. The same men marrying white/light skinned women would be marrying copper toned women with epicanthic fold for the sake of social points. I am not saying that ALL men do this, I am saying SOME men do this which includes SOME black men. I can’t seem to be offended by a man marrying a women simply because of her physical look, cause it’s not something I would want for myself….
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@Dauphine
Like you I don’t have a problem with black men dating out. To each his own.
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“Sharina:
“Like you I don’t have a problem with black men dating out. To each his own.”
Of coarse you don’t, you have a Hispanic husband, why would you have a problem with black men, dating out? Hence your agenda to back interracial relationships and get defensive, when anyone challenges your loyalty to black men. ( which is none existent, being you don’t have a black husband )
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Yes Sondis, Luis Gates was the host. There are many Black people and Whites in many Latin nations and it’s a lie that Latinos don’t have race and that the majority are mixed. It’s not true across the board. It also covers up the fact that most of these nations have the same white supremacy issues of the US with less social progression for blacks.
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“Alicia
“Yes Sondis, Luis Gates was the host. There are many Black people and Whites in many Latin nations and it’s a lie that Latinos don’t have race and that the majority are mixed. It’s not true across the board. It also covers up the fact that most of these nations have the same white supremacy issues of the US with less social progression for blacks.”
So i did watch the documentary that you’re speaking about. I remember that Luis Gates was interviewing this local rapper with a bald head and he was talking about how racist all the white people are against dark skinned Brazilians.
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@sharina
Men want fit women.
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating/top-10-proven-traits-men-desire-in-women_8.html
Men want pretty women
Face for commitment/Body for fun
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/dating/top-10-proven-traits-men-desire-in-women_6.html
Men want young women
Google “Men Like Younger Women” and have fun
Men hate dating single moms
http://survivingdating.com/why-men-hate-dating-single-mothers/2
To add on to this. If a man does not have his finances/Game in order, he tolerates single moms. So, if you wonder why black men check for single mothers or help create them. That is a partial reason.
There are more articles on this, but I think this sums it up.
As far as women with solid relationship intangibles, I will direct you to Steve Harvey’s book “Think Like A Man” and/or “Play or Be Played” by Tariq Nasheed
I have read “Play or Be Played”, but not Steve Harvey’s book. Same difference.
——–
Now, no matter how many sources I cite, you are insatiable & petty agenda driven. So I will not break out the full scholarship for you.
But are their any other claims you need sources on.
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@ mary
That is crazy they had an issue with ur beautiful dark skin, dang they must be blind cuz I’ve never met u but I know u are beautiful inside and out.
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@Dauphine
KneeGrow Bed Wench is a mentality some black women have.
And when thorough black women make valid points, I acknowledge them. Very rare event tho.
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So, Dr. Gates makes a documentary and because he showcases Afro-Latinos in the media (finally) — now all of a sudden, you want to say most Latinos are either black or white
even though you stated yourself that most Latino’s “self-identify” as white when the majority are Mestizo?
Alicia, you are trying to push your black American race agenda onto Latino and the shoe doesn’t fit.
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The same way North Americans can “self-identify”, here is how Latinos see themselves.
The following table contains information based on work by professor Dr. Francisco Lizcano Fernández in 2005. (based on regional demographics and self-identification)
Country Whites Mestizos Mulattos Amerindians Blacks Asians Creoles
Argentina 85.0% 11.1% 0.0% 1.0% 0.0% 2.9% 0.0%
Bolivia 15.0% 28.0% 2.0% 55.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Brazil 53.8% 0.0% 39.1% 0.4% 6.2% 0.5% 0.0%
Chile 52.7% 39.3% 0.0% 8.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Colombia 20.0% 53.2% 21.0% 1.8% 3.9% 0.0% 0.1%
Costa Rica 82.0% 15.0% 0.0% 0.8% 0.0% 0.2% 2.0%
Cuba 37.0% 0.0% 51.0% 0.0% 11.0% 1.0% 0.0%
Dom. Rep 14.6% 0.0% 75.0% 0.0% 7.7% 0.4% 2.3%
Ecuador 9.9% 41.0% 5.0% 39.0% 5.0% 0.1% 0.0%
El Salvador 1.0% 91.0% 0.0% 8.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Guatemala 4.0% 42.0% 0.0% 53.0% 0.0% 0.8% 0.2%
Honduras 1.0% 85.6% 1.7% 7.7% 0.0% 0.7% 3.3%
Mexico 15.0% 70.0% 0.5% 14.0% 0.0% 0.5% 0.0%
Nicaragua 14.0% 78.3% 0.0% 6.9% 0.0% 0.2% 0.6%
Panama 10.0% 32.0% 27.0% 8.0% 5.0% 4.0% 14.0%
Paraguay 20.0% 74.5% 3.5% 1.5% 0.0% 0.5% 0.0%
Peru 12.0% 32.0% 9.7% 45.5% 0.0% 0.8% 0.0%
Puerto Rico 74.8% 0.0% 10.0% 0.0% 15.0% 0.2% 0.0%
Uruguay 88.0% 8.0% 4.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0%
Venezuela 16.9% 37.7% 37.7% 2.7% 2.8% 2.2% 0.0%
Total 36.2% 29.9% 20.5% 9.3% 3.2% 0.7% 0.2%
Click to access LIZCANO.pdf
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A majority of BW are “no good”? Define “no good”.
Maybe I need to go down to Atlanta.
No one is forcing black women to be with black men. Black women are not being lunch for wanting to date white men.
As far as these women who want “nothing but a black man”. THAT IS NOT LOYALTY. He is doing YOU a favor by entertaining YOU.
HE IS YOUR BEST OPTION in your mind. Now, it is your job to convince him why being with you is HIS best option.
Black men would never get away with that FAKE loyalty argument.
Most of these black women want a certain TYPE of black man who make up a small part of the black male population.
But a lot of the times, a black man she was not checking for is now attractive because he has a white girl on his arm.
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Last comment directed at @EbonyMonroe
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@Linda Alicia
I am sorry I don’t really know much about Latin America racial proportions and its immigration history. But I noticed, in Argentina, there seems to be a huge number of Argentinians descanted from recent Jewish and European immigration. Are there a lot of Europeans that migrate to Latin America? I’m asking because the proportion of European descended Latinos seems to be increasing over the decades while the Mestizos and the Natives seems to be decreasing when you look through Latin America Media viewing lens. Or is is that the European looking Latinos are simply more on the forefront/in control of the media?
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since you missed it , Alicia, in your rush to tell me about what you personally think about self-deluded Dominicans and “one-drop” the average Latino into your American black or white categories.
Mixed race does not mean ONLY black or white…
and I’ll repost genetic studies again which highlight the REAL racial breakdown 2 prominent white South American country
Lets look at the “whitest” South Americans: the Argentinians
“Argentineans carried a large fraction of European genetic heritage in their Y-chromosomal (94.1%) and autosomal (78.5%) DNA, but their mitochondrial gene pool is mostly of Native American ancestry (53.7%); instead, African heritage was small in all three genetic systems (<4%)."
ie Y = granddaddy was white, X /Mitochondrial = grandmommy was Native Indian (or African depending on country)
Here's Uruguay (another majority "white" South American country)
"Based on 18 autosomal markers and one X-linked marker, we estimated 82% European, 8% Amerindian, and 10% African contributions to their ancestry, while from seven mitochondrial DNA site-specific polymorphic markers and sequences of hypervariable segment I, we determined 49% European, 30% Amerindian, and 21% African maternal contributions. ”
looks “mixed-race” to me
Puerto Rico, another so called “white” majority country (Caribbean Latinos)
Thanks to Dr. Gates, Puerto Rican – Michelle Rodriguez, discover that she is primarily European – 72.4%, 21.3% African, and 6.3% Native American
Based on your assessment, Michelle must look just as “white” as your white American Becky…I don’t think so…
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@Adonis
You’ve lost me a little, how are you saying that anyone who dates/marry within their own “race” has fake loyalty? Or are you just talking about black women?
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@linda
I’m black and my nationality or background is none of your business. Most Latin nations have a large amount of non-mixed blacks, whites and others where mestizos are really full blooded native people’s.
I also maintain that the Latino term is as silly as if Blacks from former British colonies were to call themselves English. It’s a lie that race functions that different in Latin culture but rather is based upon white supremacy and embarresment about European settlement, subjugation of the large amount of native peoples and African oppression in the Americas.
The people of El Salvador and Mexio are nothing like and dont have the same history as those of Colombia, Venezuala, D.R. , Cuba or other nations.
Language does not equal race, particularly when the cause was colonization, so stop the bull.
Many Latinos are Not mixed.
You also made a very false statement in saying most Latins were primarily of European stock. That is false although some nations have large percentages of whites like Brazil, Cuba, Argentina and others.
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@Abagond
“Moderation: Comments get thrown to moderation if they:
Have more than two links.
Use a moderated word: bitch, boy, chink, cock, cracker, cunt, dick, fuck, gook, gorilla, honky, idiot, jigaboo, kaffir, motherfucker, nazi, nigga, nigger, piss, pussy, shit, skinhead, spic, tits, tranny,
trailer trash, white trash, whiteboy, whitey, youtube and any form of these words.”
Please consider adding “bed wench” to your list of moderated words.
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Dauphine, it’s the Media plays a part in the non Latin Americans thinking that the majority of South America or Latin America is “white” — and why there is a misconception that there is no black people in Argentina.
Argentina and most of South America had a policy to whiten up their population by opening up the borders to European immigrants and this policy included them intermixing with the African and Native Indian populations.
Also, they had a reverse “one-drop” rule where anyone with “1 drop of white European ” ancestry can call themselves “white” — hence a lot of confused Mestizos and “Morenos” who deny their African or Native American Indian ancestry.
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*That was supposed to read… “propaganda notifying BW that they greatly outnumber BM, that 20% of BM marry out, 30% have served time.”
Hello ms Sharina.
I think the other issue with Hispanics is that many don’t identify as Black, even if they are. So the Black community often identifies them as being White. It’s like the Tiger Woods syndrome, you can’t force someone to see themselves as Black. I’ve met numerous Puerto ricans who don’t see themselves as Black, at all. So I hesitate to view them as non “European,” until they tell me otherwise. Not only because of previous encounters, but also out of respect for the way one chooses to define themselves, even if the definition is technically untrue.
I caught some of that documentary you’ve mentioned. Did you see the g0lliwog dolls they sell in tourist stores in the Dominican? One brotha I know, who visited Brazil, said he wasn’t even allowed into certain establishments, like restaurants. And it is well known, that in Brazil, the more Black you look, the more likely you are to live in the slums.
@ Dauphine
Sadly, I don’t feel I can completely divorce a White beauty standard embraced by BM from the aspect of race. They are inextricably linked to White Supremacy; but I do agree with one point you’ve made, this extends to all people of color, it’s not just an issue in the Black community. It’s just that the Black community is always held up as the example, as the very opposite of White, so it is more pronounced in the Western narrative.
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No. I am not a black nationalist.
But the loyalty claim is bogus.
Black women do not date black men out of some duty to family like we are Japanese.
Most black women date & marry black men because that is who they grew up around (shared culture/experiences) & those are the men that inspire the deepest romantic feelings. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Women have this thing where, if I like you, you are on the hook for not returning the favor.
Also, to be loyal to black men, is admitting that black men are NOT the best choice, but you will sacrifice the men you really wanna be with, to be with black men.
Which most black men will find insulting.
The loyalty claim is silly, when you break it all down.
So, no one owes you anything for preferring BLACK MEN.
And no matter who you pick as your s/o, you will always have your supporters and critics
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Last comment for @Dauphine
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What does what your posting have to do with Interracial relations? I don’t want anyone here to buy your BULL!
It’s also been proven that blacks are under-counted across Latin America because of racism and shame. Colombia’s population is at least 25-30% Black. Brazil as well has a much larger percentage of Blacks than whats on their census.
Don’t even come with the bull about a supposed American view on race when Latinos try to claim Sammy Sosa is not black and Cameron Diaz is not White, although the nations have the same history as the US and right now the worst racism against blacks is going on throughout Latin nations.
Nobody is that stupid ok!
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That post above is for the poster Linda.
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and I, Alicia, have no problems stating my Ethnic identity and could care less about yours… but I KNOW you are not Latino because of half the crap coming out of your mouth.
I love my African heritage but I am also living in the real world… I never said that Central or South Americans or Caribbean Latinos are the same… so you need to stop trying to put words in my mouth…
All these regions have a population where the average Latino person is are “mixed-race” — regardless of the Racial combination — they are still mixed-race… That’s what Mestizo means…it doesn’t mean “Native American.
You trying to bring in the minority “black” population does not mean that the majority of the population is not mixed with white European ancestry… I hope you are not trying to include Morenos aka Mulattos as part of the “black” population because if you are, now I know why you are confused.
and sorry, Alicia, yes, most Latinos ARE mixed… you trying to run me down won’t change that FACT,
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“Alicia,
What does what your posting have to do with Interracial relations? I don’t want anyone here to buy your BULL!”
Linda says,
and maybe if you had minded your own business since my original statement was addressed to Abagond, you and I wouldn’t be having this long, drawn out conversation.
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Alicia, what is your POINT????
Most Americans don’t think about Afro-Latinos when they hear the word “Hispanic”, so why are you bring it up… what is your point???
Abagond decided to not include Hispanics in his tree of interracial unions and I objected saying that he should included them and if he didn’t like the term Hispanics, call them “Latinos”
so what the f’ck is your problem and why are you try to derail my original post?
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White Latino/a: “I’m latino/a with Italian and German ancestry” (says proudly)
Black or mixed race Latino/a: “I’m just Latino, ancestors from Spain”
Mestizo or Indian Latino/a: “I’m just a Latino, ancestors from Spain”
You’re telling me people being so embaressed and ashamed of their identity and past is somehow better and denying reality is an ‘American way of thinking’
Pffft
Pulease!
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I meant that ‘to not deny reality is a supposed American way of thinking ?’
Puhleaseeee!
Maybe he didn’t include Latinos because it’s not a race?
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“You’re telling me people being so embaressed and ashamed of their identity and past is somehow better and denying reality is an ‘American way of thinking’ ”
Linda says,
So what Alicia… you didn’t say anything new… I’ve already stated that because of La Raza concept, most Latinos deny their African or Native Indian ancestry…
all you are saying is that you feel some kind of way about it, just like most black Americans get mad at Dominicans because they like to say “they’re not black”
like I said, this whole topic of Latinos denying their ancestry is OLD news on this blog… and has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about…
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Maybe he didn’t include Latinos because it’s not a race?
and neither is black, black is not a “race”
that’s why your political activist pushed for the term “African American” so that your light, bright almost white “black” people could be included in this concept that “black people come in all shades and colours” to uphold the ole one-drop rule — only in America
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“Adonis:
“But the loyalty claim is bogus.”
“Most black women date & marry black men because that is who they grew up around (shared culture/experiences) & those are the men that inspire the deepest romantic feelings. BIG DIFFERENCE.”
I agree 100% as i said the very same thing to Peanut:
“Peanut:
“at the end of the day look at the stats, who is dating out mORE…not Black women.”
“its plain as day who is more loyal and if black women are starting to go for white men more it’s BECAUSE of Black men shunning Black women”
Sondis:
“The logic in this statement makes no sense, you interpret a “supposed” loyalty by black women, simply because the majority of black women, date and or marry black men???
So i guess its not because, the majority of black men and women in America, Marry and date within their own race??? black people, marrying out of their race is a MINORITY, so it makes perfect sense that a black women AND a black man, will end up together, being the majority of blacks live with other backs. Not some sort of “loyalty by black women that you keep, spewing all over the place as if black women are so pro-black in 2013”
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Black is not a race?
What are you talking about?
I believe it should be more like “only in Latin nations’
Mixed race blacks like Obama, my own mother, Vanessa Williams and others are a part of the African diaspora.
If you prefer to pretend they are not and that Sammy Sosa is somehow not black if he has a white great-great-great Grandma than that is on you.
You know it’s ridiculous! Admit it. The Latino version of grouping people is not based on any sort of reality but rather extreme embarressment of thei subjugated past.
Most people outside of Latin nations have come to terms with whom they are.
My mother is mostly white although I am brown skinned.
Tell me, am I white, mulatta, other? I’m not still a black woman?
If I move to a Latin nation and learn Spanish, do I magically become a different non-black person?
Lololololol
Hahaha
Ridiculous!
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And Linda, to a black person from Britian or America or the Caribbean, we dont get mad when an obvious afro/Afro-mixed person denies having Afro ancestry, we laugh because it’s ridiculous!!!!
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“Peanut
sondis i’m done talking to you.”
1 I can care less, if you talk to me or not.
2 I wasn’t even referring to you, i was referring to Adonis in my quotes.
3 Have a nice day 🙂
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The only ridiculous thing about this conversation Alicia, is that you as a “black” woman is upholding the white American “One-drop” rule and trying to apply and drape it over Latin Americans… that is the Joke…
there is already a concept about Race in Latin America… you can answer your own question by learning about their concept of race — but you’re not interested because you only care about the good ole USA’s concept of race.
As I said, who cares about Sammy Sosa — he does NOT represent the average Latino — that’s like me saying that Sammy Davis Jr. is the face and representative of the average Jew… so you give me a break — you are being disingenuous.
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“Alicia,
And Linda, to a black person from Britian or America or the Caribbean, we dont get mad when an obvious afro/Afro-mixed person denies having Afro ancestry, we laugh because it’s ridiculous!!!!:
Linda says,
Please speak for your self because you certainly don’t speak for my Jamaican/ Honduran self —
most Caribbean or West Indian British people have no Problems calling someone “brown” and don’t care if mixed people don’t call themselves “black”
you’ve lived in America too long because you seem out of touch with true “yardie” mentality.
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You know very well, Alicia, if you’re Caribbean descended that most English-speaking Caribbean countries divide people as black, brown, or white.. so stop playing games…
If a Chinese-Jamaican or Syrian with obvious African ethnicity says their black, everyone is cool… if they say, their not black.. every one is cool
I’ve never met a Trini that got mad at a “dougla” who called themselves “Indian.” —
and if you know anything about the Caribbean and Central American, you should already know that the term “creoles is given to English-speaking Caribbeans who live in Spanish speaking countries…
that’s why Panama and Belize have a good size “West Indian” population who still speak patois and can speak Spanish and are not considered “Mestizo” even if some of they are mixed-race.
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That’s just a term, like ‘redbone’, if the person is black, they’re black. Most people outside of Latin nations don’t like being called by their complexion. Most light skinned caribbeans, British, and Afro Americans still acknowledge African ancestry, unlike with mixed or heck, even black Latinos. I already know how race is labeled and functions in Latin nations. It’s wrong, incorrect, based on shame and goes against the fight against white supremacy/anti-black racism we face around the globe.
Language does not equal or change a persons race and I’m done going back and forth with you. The fact that I look like a black woman yet have distant white relatives means to Latinos like you that I am somehow of some different race tells me you may still have a few screws loose.
I will also reiterate that “Latino” is not a race and Mexicans are nothing like Dominicans. I also believe just like with blacks, many native Indian Latinos claim mestizo when they are not.
I used to live around central Americans whom tend to be very native American like. The men were around 5 feet on average and round, nothing like other Latino groups whom are white or black or mixed and are very different.
Latino is not a race like black or white or east Asian is. It is not even like Souh Asians whom although having different races still are more similar than salvadoreans vs Dominicans or brazilians.
What shocked me is when mixed race and black Dominicans started saying Salvadoreans and other central Americans discriminated against them in the DC area.
Stop equating language with race and also stop making broad statements about many very different groups of people.
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What mixed race Dominicans and the Black ones, plus some non-white Cubans told me is that Salvadoreans and other central Americans discriminate against them in th DC metro area because….
of their color/racial background…..
It shocked me as I thought you so-called ‘Latinos’ were one big happy family.
What’s also obvious given Latino discrimination is that embracing a mixed race identity is not benefitting or fooling non-blacks.
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Remember Linda, I did not share my nationality or background, so watch what you say. You’ve just wrote more falsehoods. Mixed race in the Caribbean do not deny having any African ancestry.
I’m done talking to you.
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“Alicia,
Stop equating language with race and also stop making broad statements about many very different groups of people.”
Linda says,
You have a bloody cheek, don’t you…. find anywhere in my comments where I equated “language with race”… that’s your black American (because you certainly don’t represent Caribbean) projection that you’re trying to place at my doorstep.
as I said, the average Latino is “mixed-race” — whether its European and Native America, or European, Native, and African, or African and Native, or European and African… still mixed and what ties them together mainly, is that the majority of their “European” is Spanish… not British or Irish…but Spanish.
Dominicans do not represent the average Latino, that’s just one country — and according to statistics, the average Dominican is still mixed-race.
Mexicans do not represent the average Latino, because that’s just one country- and according to statistics, the average Mexican is mixed-race.
Pick any country in Central and South America, statistic show that the average person is mixed-race…and their European ethnicity 7 out of 10 will be Spanish.
and your denials and wishful thinking won’t change that FACT Alicia…
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@ Adonis
I don’t actually know what “No good” means, when BM say this about BW. There are usually a number of profiles assigned to BW, too many to name.
But yes, I do define BW generally preferring BM to be a matter of loyalty. I don’t see it as BW doing BM a favor, but that could be viewed as a virtue by some, it just depends on your point of view. I think, at times, people are speaking about BW’s “loyalty,” or unwillingness to part with BM in comparison to BM marrying out the most, out of all male groups in the US and the UK, despite the fact that they both grow up around eachother, which is usually the reason given for why BW tend to stay stick with BM. But this can’t be true as BM also grow up around BW but still marry out the most, after Asian women. And yes, if BW turn down advances from non BM, which is a complaint I’ve heard from non BM, then yes, I personally, would define it as loyalty.
No, I wouldn’t see any BM as doing BW a favor, by entertaining her. They should both be humbled and flattered that someone is romantically interested; that would be the honorable reaction, in my opinion.
I am unable to subscribe to any position regarding “what kind of BM most—all BW want,” as I have not met every BW in America or the UK. It would be silly to make such a generalisation on a blog where we spend so much time condemning generalisations.
To answer your last point about a sudden attraction that stems from a BM having a WW on his arm, I don’t think that’s the case, I think it’s the statistics that keep being circulated about BM marrying out the most, so when BW encounter these couples, it’s like confirmation, and that’s where the slight discomfort comes from. This, however, is simply my perspective.
I must add that over the last few years, I’ve heard the reactions from BW change. BW tend to come from the position of “I don’t mind if BM are with non BW, as long as you’re not spewing hatred of BW to justify it. Just leave us out of it.”
And I have come across BM who get angry when there are BW who prefer non BM. There is a popular youtube channel where BM complain about this, I know a number of BM who did not like Kerry Washington until she married a BM, and I know BM who have completely gone off Halle Berry because her last, and current relationship, involve non Black men. They usually just won’t say exactly why they don’t like these women, choosing instead to use words like “uppity,” or titles like “Fake Black Valley girls.” I’ve even heard BM complain that WM always take the best BW. I know of a relationship where the BW’s relationship with the BM ended because he found out she had had a long term relationship with a WM, before him. There was a story of a BW/WM couple in the South; the WM was severely beaten by a group of BM for walking with her, hand in hand.
Statistically, there has just been far fewer BW/non BM marriages up to this point, so it’s not a demographic that BM feel threatened by. Although, that is not to say that there would be some huge outrage if that became a reality.
I don’t feel comfortable taking things I have come across and applying it to all BM or BW, because I don’t know every BM or BW.
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I meant to say to the board that if mixed-race and black Dominicans and Cubans are facing discrimination and racism from El Salvadoreans and other Central Americans right here in the DC area ( just like in latin nations) than that means Latinos embracing a mixed race identity, denying being black or mixed with it, is certainly NOT benefitting them!
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“Alicia,
Mixed race in the Caribbean do not deny having any African ancestry.”
Linda says,
please find the sentence where I said that “mixed-race people in the English-speaking Caribbean deny their African ancestry?”
Pleas post that sentence because once again, you’re putting words into my mouth and telling falsehoods.
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EbonyMonroe,
Are you in the UK? If so, I can understand your feelings. Given the racism there and lack of enforcement of equal hiring practices, I don’t think I could live there. I also felt being a black woman there would leave me too vulnerable since while I was there for a few months I felt an anti-black women given the fact that not only is there anti-black racism, but also a push to pursue and prize white women by many black and Indian men there, I guess because of the population size. It was weird but while I was there for a few months, the worst blatant anti-black attitudes I faced we’re from Indians and Arabs.
I’ve learned as a black women, for my own mental health 🙂 hehe and as well as comfort, in an anti-blk society where black beauty is downed, I prefer the US where the black population is larger and so in many areas you can see black couples.
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I will also say that I know black people, including black men (whom are expected to hold down a family) have much less chances for advancement in Britian, compared to the US which mt contribute to certain things I noticed while there.
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@Sondis @Adonis
You know the two of you are talking about millions of people right?? You cannot take one brush and paint one particular group all the same color. You’re saying that no matter the class, ethnicity(whether they’re African-American, Second generation African, Dominican), and how they were raised, black women who only date/marry black men do it for these specific reasons. That is simply impossible… There are many reasons why black women date outside their race, and there are many reasons why black women date only black men, some healthy, some not so healthy. Which is the case of any other ethnic group, gender, or sexual orientation .
I do not understand why human beings have this need to make other human beings, less than them. Statements like white men are… Japanese women do… Latinos men hate… are means of removing a particular groups complex humanity, and maintaining a superficial view for the sake of their own mental comfort. Whether you’re a man or a women, that kind of attitude is just narrow-minded, and illogical.
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“Alicia,
I meant to say to the board that if mixed-race and black Dominicans and Cubans are facing discrimination and racism from El Salvadoreans and other Central Americans right here in the DC area ( just like in latin nations) than that means Latinos embracing a mixed race identity, denying being black or mixed with it, is certainly NOT benefitting them!”
Linda says,
and further more, why are you bringing in Racism and Colourism.. who the h’ll ever said that Latin American did not have Racism or Coloursim issues… it’s a huge problem there and one that I’ve discussed many times on this blog..
as I said, you are not bringing up anything new…
and as I’ll say once again, your “disagreement” with me, has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said about Abagond including Latinos as a “race” since they cannot be neatly classified as either black or white.
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@EbonyMonroe,
Most black men are not making any complaints about Halle Berry or the other celebs whom are dating IR. I have dated IR and in heavily black areas, black men never cared.
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@Peanut, EbonyMonroe,
Do you fully understand what Black men face under White supremacy?
Do you?
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@ Adonis
“No good” IMO means low value
Fat, old, high body count, OOW children, poor relationship intangibles, daddy issues.
I would love to say the majority of BW fall under this umbrella, but I can definitely say, at least 40% of BW this applies to.
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@Alicia @EbonyMonroe
Last comment was for @EbonyMonroe
@Alicia
You have to understand that the attitude among a lot of black women is that black men can do, but won’t do.
I really appreciate that you add context to the conversation.
Because black men are the least likely to get help from their government & their families, but they are still expected to thrive like white men & black women.
Overlooking all the help that white men & women & black women get.
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@ Alicia & Adonis
Give me an hour or two I’ve got stuff to do and you have both said A LOT, so I’m gonna have to be at my computer to respond, which I’m not right now.
One thing is for sure, when it comes from my perspective vs. Alicia’s & my perspective vs. Adonis’ we’re gonna end up having to agree to disagree.
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and Alicia, I just wanted to say
you and I agree, more than we disagree, when it comes to Latinos denying their African or even Indio heritage.
Being part-Latino, I am intimately familiar with this attitude and I also wish that some Latinos would come to terms with “who” they are.
but still, many Afro-Latinos in South America are well adjusted and know who they are and respect their African heritage — most Latinos acknowledge the African contribution to their heritage.
It’s the people who still buy into “mejorar la raza” on a subconscious level that makes it seem that Mestizo or Afro-Latinos are “self-hating”
The Dominicans I know think Sammy Sosa is a joke because he took the time to literally change his skin colour and is trying to pass it off as “natural”… Sammy did not erase his features and they still show the “African behind the ears”. That’s why in Jamaica, we make fun of Vybz Kartel for bleaching his skin “Sammy Sosa” style — no one respects that.
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@solesearch kinda tired now, have to check back, it is my understanding you were saying something like ‘white pride’ seemingly as a collective goal or something not a subset of white people or something like that which to me seems very close to ‘white power’ ss tats all that
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not a joke
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@ Alicia
Alicia
EbonyMonroe,
“Are you in the UK? If so, I can understand your feelings. Given the racism there and lack of enforcement of equal hiring practices, I don’t think I could live there. I also felt being a black woman there would leave me too vulnerable since while I was there for a few months I felt an anti-black women given the fact that not only is there anti-black racism, but also a push to pursue and prize white women by many black and Indian men there, I guess because of the population size. It was weird but while I was there for a few months, the worst blatant anti-black attitudes I faced we’re from Indians and Arabs.”
……………………………………….
I don’t feel anything about it, this is just talk, I’m just contributing to the conversation. Where I grew up, it was shameful for BM to be with WW, as they were regarded as “easy” (this is not my opinion). The thing was light skinned/mixed race girls. Since (physically speaking), I am obviously biracial, I didn’t experience the problems that many BW did in my neighborhood.
…………………………………………
Alicia said
“I’ve learned as a black women, for my own mental health 🙂 hehe and as well as comfort, in an anti-blk society where black beauty is downed, I prefer the US where the black population is larger and so in many areas you can see black couples.”
………………………………………
I’ve never had any problems getting and keeping any man, Black, White, Middle Eastern, Asian, Hispanic. And Black women marry out in droves over here, anyway. But I still see Black couples all the time.
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Alicia said
“I will also say that I know black people, including black men (whom are expected to hold down a family) have much less chances for advancement in Britian, compared to the US which mt contribute to certain things I noticed while there.”
“@EbonyMonroe,
Most black men are not making any complaints about Halle Berry or the other celebs whom are dating IR. I have dated IR and in heavily black areas, black men never cared.”
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I never implied that most BM have complaints about BW marrying out. I implied that the idea that it is not something that would make BM feels uncomfortable if BW married out to the point where there were not enough BW for BM should they prefer to settle down with BW, the way many BW often prefer BM, but that option was affected, I don’t believe no BM would have a problem with it. And I was simply stated that I have encountered BM feeling uncomfortable with seeing BW with non BM. I remember when a picture of Bria Miles with her White boyfriend was posted on here, the reaction from a few brothas was “noooooooo, not Bria.” It is unrealistic for you to assume that your experiences can account for how every or any BM would feel if BW married out in large proportions, just going by the BM in your limited surroundings.
…………………………………………………….
Alicia said
“@Peanut, EbonyMonroe,
Do you fully understand what Black men face under White supremacy?
Do you?”
…………………………………………………………
What have I said about BM? At what point have I alluded to BM having it easy? I’m getting a serious Shahrazad Ali vibe from you, at this point. Every time a BW speaks on anything negative she has experienced from a BM, you jump in and say BW do it, too. Every time a BM has said something extremely disrespectful and offensive about BW on this thread, you have overlooked it to stay in alignment with the BM’s plight.
I have always been a supporter of BM, for the last few weeks I have been so proud of Obama for taking steps to adjust the “War against drugs” that has resulted in millions of African American men serving ridiculous amounts of time in the modern slave trade known as the prison industrial complex, used as cheap labor for multimillion dollar corporations. I am aware that BM outnumber WM in college attendance, but it is not acknowledged. I am aware that, statistically speaking, BM spend more time with their children than any other group of men, though they are stereotyped as absentee fathers. I am aware of the fact that BM spend an incredible larger amount of time in jail for non violent crimes in comparison to White male pedophiles and murderers. I am aware of the race and wage gap that affects BM. I am aware of the judicial, occupational, domestic, and social issues that BM are up against. And I am very proud of them.
The thing that irritates many BW is how individuals like yourself seem to allude to the idea that BM have it harder than BW do.
*The number 1 killer of BW in the US and the UK is domestic violence
*60% of BW in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted by age 16-18
* You’ve heard of Trayvon Martin, and you saw BW come out in droves, but have you heard of Rekia Boyd, or Aiyana Jones, or Keyarika Diggles.
* BW don’t claim the most government assistance in the US, nor do they benefit the most from Affirmative action, WW do. But BW are demonized as welfare queens.
*BW outnumber everyone in college attendance, but they still face both the race and wage gap. BM business owners make more money than BW business owners.
* Black women are filling up jails in the US, like 2 or 3 times the rate of BM, but I bet you didn’t know that.
* Black women are statistically the least likely to give up their children to the state, but even though it is a disadvantage being a single parent, they are blamed for their own oppressions because they are said to have all the power as the only adults in their households. BW are blamed for their own oppressions just as much, if not more so, than BM are. The only difference, is that the oppressions BW faced are pushed out to make room for a monolithic narrative of BM being the face of Black disadvantage.
We worship cats like Nathan Mccall who gang r@ped countless young Black girls in his book “Makes me wanna holler,” he hasn’t served one day for it, but since he talks about White supremacy, and is a BM we overlook, in favor of his plight. This attitude leads to situations like what happened with the Dunbar village gang r@pe case, which the Florida police department even admitted, was one of the worst crimes they had ever come across, it was horrific. But when the NAACP and Al Sharpton were contacted, they said they weren’t interested, until the last minute when the sentences were handed down and they came out the woodwork to defend the perpetrators, and not the mother and her child.
I definitely feel BOTH BM and BW have it equally as hard, just harder and easier in different areas. I mean this with no disrespect, I really don’t, but if we’re going to get into some oppression Olympics, let’s just end this now. I cannot subscribe to that, at all.
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@ Adonis
“I don’t actually know what “No good” means, when BM say this about BW. There are usually a number of profiles assigned to BW, too many to name.
Adonis said
“No good” IMO means low value
Fat, old, high body count, OOW children, poor relationship intangibles, daddy issues.
I would love to say the majority of BW fall under this umbrella, but I can definitely say, at least 40% of BW this applies to.”
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Fat: Black men, Black women, Hispanic men, and Hispanic women, are leading in obesity in the UK. This is an economic problem. Cats argue that sistas are fat, but both Black and Hispanic men and women dominate in obesity in the US due to a lack of healthy nutrition, due to the cost of an organic diet vs the low cost of GM foods. When push comes to shove, Black men and women are fat in the US, but instead of focusing on the poverty aspect that drives such bad health, sistas are held up in front as the laughing stock? Here’s one of many examples of White supremacism not being attacked with the black male voice, it seems Black women are attacked for this. But when sistas critique these critiques, they are shot down for not attacking the White supremacist systems that uphold the poverty in the community. Personally, I have only ever dated lean, muscular men, but since watching the “Peeping Tom House party 1” scene the other day, I’ll admit, it did a little something for me. I told my old man that if he decides to get fat when he’s old, I will enjoy it.
But I’m not denying that it is a problem, but it is a SHARED problem.
old: sure, there are BW who are not an option because they’re too old. Just like there are BM who are too old for BW. Unless you have a fetish or something.
high body count: I’ve heard a number of BM complain that they don’t like BW because they’re too conservative. Whereas non Black women don’t take as long. So this contradicts what others have said. But, like always, it’s very difficult to take one persons experiences seriously because it could contradict the positions of many others. In this case, it does.
OOW children: BW are making out of wedlock children with BM, so there are just as many BM with children out of wedlock as there are BW with children out of wedlock. I have been hard pressed to find BM without children, I don’t have any, but I learned to overlook it, if the behaviors that led to out of wedlock children have definitely come to an end. I can assure you, BW are just as had pressed to encounter BM without out of wedlock children, just as much as BM are.
poor relationship intangibles/daddy issues: Psychologically, girls/women who grow up without a father in the home, are far more likely to become teenage mother, due to searching for a father figure. This also affects women’s mate selecting, because they have no example of what makes a good candidate for a husband and father for their children. Men who grow up, not witnessing a healthy, stable marriage at home, have far greater difficulty in relating to women in a healthy way, as there is no example for how to be a good husband. Since both BM and BW are often raised in single parent homes, the daddy issues, and relationship difficulties are a problem for both genders. There is nothing that BM have to put up with from BW who struggle to relate to men, that BW don’t also have to put up with, from BM who struggle to relate to women.
…………………………………………………….
But yes, I do define BW generally preferring BM to be a matter of loyalty.
Adonis said
Let’s go with that. Black men are just as loyal. Because BW are so concerned about the MINORITY of black men who do date out, and ignore the MAJORITY of black men that don’t.
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Listen, I don’t wanna get into sounding like I have an actual problem with BM dating or marrying out, because I don’t. But if BM marry out the most out of all male groups, then no, they’re not as “loyal” to BW as BW are to them. It’s a matter of mathematics.
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Adonis said
“And for those who do date out, we always leave out CONTEXT.”
……………………………………………………………
BW are outdoing everyone in moving into the middle class, at least their higher education rates would say so. A study found that BW now get loans just as easily as WM do. So essentially, BW are in contexts where it would be more fitting to attribute their marring out the most, if that were the case. So that argument is non applicable by comparison.
…………………………………………………………………………..
I don’t see it as BW doing BM a favor, but that could be viewed as a virtue by some, it just depends on your point of view.
Adonis said
When black men are “loyal” to black women, where is the appreciation for that.
Especially to their mothers. Doesn’t for the narrative. Nothing to see here
…………………………………………………………
We have been discussing BW loyalty to BM this entire time. When BM are killed, like in the case of Trayvon, who’s marching and protesting? Black mothers. Who wrote an entire book on the plight of Black men in the modern slave trade known as the prison industrial complex? A Black woman. When White women are on the jury, sending you into your “early retirement” who do many Black men still say are the better women? Oh, that’s right, non Black women.
Name actors who BW would lick between the toes, because they either champion BW, or it has been suggested that they were not willing to do a love scene with a White woman, so as not to offend Black women? Oh yeah, Denzel Washington and Idris Elba.
I have found in previous conversations with BM on this, that it is very important for me to highlight the fact that much of what I am writing is typed with a smile and a pinch of light sarcasm. As it isn’t possible to gage someone’s tone conversing through this kind of forum. And it can be interpreted as a screaming match, I’m not trying to come off that way @ you (Adonis) or Alicia.
………………………………………………………
I think, at times, people are speaking about BW’s “loyalty,” or unwillingness to part with BM in comparison to BM marrying out the most, out of all male groups in the US and the UK, despite the fact that they both grow up around eachother, which is usually the reason given for why BW tend to stay stick with BM.
Adonis said
“So why do YOU think a MINORITY of BM date out.”
But this can’t be true as BM also grow up around BW but still marry out the most, after Asian women.
Adonis said
“Why do you think that is?”
…………………………………………………………
I think it’s for a number of reasons. Statistically speaking, men are more inclined to be open to dating outside of their race than women are. If I’m not mistaken, the only demographic that bucks that tide, is the Asian community. I think there are problems in the Black community that make social dynamics difficult between Black men and women on the home front. Black men are usually quite conservative, as the Black community is quite conservative; whereas Black women are raised to be extremely independent and self sufficient, by there mothers, who are aware of the disadvantages for Black women. So essentially you have both genders of the same group, being raised to have a different world view. They are not wholly incompatible, but they make for differences that can be difficult to overcome. Black women are raised to be feminists, BM are not. There are numerous problems that the Black community faces, which probably just makes stepping out of it, to build your family, very appealing. And the most controversial reason… White women are held as the beauty standard, the epitome of femininity, value, and marriage material, this propaganda has power. Since Black is the antithesis of White, anything non Black could be considered more beautiful than Black women, if one were to subscribe to this hype. And as Alicia alluded, I don’t think BM are exempt from the power of White supremacy. Asian women date out the most, are Asian men bad? I don’t believe that at all. In the same way that I don’t apply the concept of BM dating out because BW have some innate national flaw.
…………………………………………………………………..
And yes, if BW turn down advances from non BM, which is a complaint I’ve heard from non BM, then yes, I personally, would define it as loyalty.
Adonis said
“I define it as lack of attraction & shared culture. If the incentive and OPTION to date out was there, most BW would do it.”
……………………………………………..
I don’t think that’s true at all. Most BW would confess to finding Brad Pitt, or Keanu Reeves, or George Clooney very attractive. But your opinion about OPTIONS fits into my opinion regarding LOYALTY. BM complain about BW in the UK, just as much as they do in the US, the only difference here, is that many BW do hop the fence and settle down with non BM, here. I know BW have many opportunities to be with non Black men in the US, I saw it myself when I lived there. But I saw BW repeatedly turn down non BM. That’s generally what I mean about loyalty, I wouldn’t define it as loyalty if there were no other options, because then that would mean it is a matter of not having a choice. Although, as I have already said, I think that is beginning to change. The culture part in non applicable, because BM do not share the same culture as non BW, but it is not a problem. Culture is a difference, but not necessarily a barrier.
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No, I wouldn’t see any BM as doing BW a favor, by entertaining her. They should both be humbled and flattered that someone is romantically interested; that would be the honorable reaction, in my opinion.
Adonis said.
The biggest issue with women in America, in general is that they don’t know “their place.” And I do not mean that in the “barefoot & pregnant” sense.
They don’t understand the difference between sex & long-term commitment.
They don’t know the kind of men they can reasonably get to commit to them.
They think they can “have it all” without any sort of sacrifice.
They think men will accept sluts as wives (which happens but is rare)
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First of all, a lot of BM go crazy over the likes of Kim Kardashian, so it could be said that many of these standards go out the window for non BW. Secondly, I cannot give a serious response to the claim that most—all American women are promiscuous. You should check aids stats because they have been affecting men who look like yourself the most, I’m not being rude, but you’re throwing rocks from a glass house with this us/everyone else thing. You feel a certain disdain for BW, you feel a certain disdain for American women, you never know, not to be rude or anything, but maybe the problem is YOU. Just like how you said to one of the women on here, that they shouldn’t see THEIR bad experiences as a representation of all BM, so you should take your own advice and stop applying YOUR BAD CHOICES IN WOMEN, as a representation of all African American and/or all American women. What you do with that, is neither here or there, but you would be more credible by living by your own advice. Lastly, men are usually more promiscuous than women are, because it is more socially acceptable, and there was a recent study that found that BW are no longer as interested in marriage as BM are, so maybe women are just not wrapped up in being someone’s wife anymore. Maybe they just want to use your body and leave the money by the bedside table. But don’t let them, baby, don’t let those evil girls take advantage of your body. They’ll put you to sleep and in the morning, when you wake up, you’ll feel dirty. You’re worth so much more. But you can get over this, you’re going to pull through just fine. You’re more than your body. It’s okay.
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I am unable to subscribe to any position regarding “what kind of BM most—all BW want,” as I have not met every BW in America or the UK. It would be silly to make such a generalisation on a blog where we spend so much time condemning generalisations.
Adonis said
“All generalizations mean that assertion in question is TRUE more than it is unTRUE.”
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White people once believed that Africans are subhuman, because they look different. Just because something is widely circulated, doesn’t make it anymore true. I hope you don’t ever complain about racism, you’re backing yourself into a corner with these generalizations. You better be okay with them, when they are applied to you, as a Black man.
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Adonis said
The point that you & other BW like to avoid is that BW like the same type of men, which are usually in short-supply. So a lot of you man-share. Knowingly & unknowingly. The former is usually the case. But women play dumb
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You’re completely out of your mind, but it’s funny. Okay Adonis, since I’m a Black woman, and my best friend is a Black woman, what is my type, and what is her type? Go on, since you know us so well?
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To answer your last point about a sudden attraction that stems from a BM having a WW on his arm, I don’t think that’s the case, I think it’s the statistics that keep being circulated about BM marrying out the most, so when BW encounter these couples, it’s like confirmation, and that’s where the slight discomfort comes from. This, however, is simply my perspective.
Google “Social Proofing” and check out the romantic implications.
The thing that BW do not want to admit is that they look up to white women.
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If you are struggling in romantic relationships with BW, statements like these will not help. This is EXTREMELY offensive. I have already explained why I believe BW turn there heads and notice BM who are with WW, so I won’t repeat that. It could be said that BM look up to WM and that’s why they often want what they have WW and European looking Hispanic women, but that’s neither here nor there. I can’t think of a single BW who looks up to WW, when WW like Miley Cyrus are using BW as stage props who’s the first to call her out? BW. When people give daps to women like Madonna, and she gets a pass for calling promiscuity female empowerment as a WW, who rolls their eyes? BW. When she’s appropriating Black culture, and promoting some pseudo sympathy at the plight of the Black community, by making out with a Black Jesus, and falling into the arms of a Black choir, made up of large, mammy looking Black women, as the angelic WW, failing to see the racial overtones in much of her work, like referring to her Black/minority dancers as emotional cripples she collects, in one of her documentaries, who calls her out? BW. I really don’t know any BW who look up to WW. The only thing I’ve ever seen BW do, is try to physically emulate a Eurocentric beauty standard to appease men, including their own.
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Adonis said
“So, in their eyes, if a particular white woman is checking for a black male, then that black male is more attractive because he has that white woman on his arm.
But if he was alone, he would be invisible to said black woman”
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See above
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I must add that over the last few years, I’ve heard the reactions from BW change. BW tend to come from the position of “I don’t mind if BM are with non BW, as long as you’re not spewing hatred of BW to justify it. Just leave us out of it.”
Adonis said
“I have heard that too. But anytime IR dating is brought up with black women on a relevant blog, the comment section blows up. Case & Point. This thread. So, it is deeper than a “hatred for BW. It still rubs a lot of BW the wrong way. And it should not”
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Do you understand that BW outnumber BM? Do you understand that BM marry out the most? Do you understand that 1 in 3 BM have served time, meaning they will struggle to find employment? Do you understand that when women raise you, live in a world where they are constantly told they’re the least beautiful as the antithesis of WW, go marching for you when things hit the fan, raise your children, desire you, write love songs about you, like Angie Stone’s “Brotha,” and how a deep affection for you as “their men,” why it may sting when you turn around and choose non BW over them more than any other group of males? There is no longer enough BM for BW, this is just fact. So why wouldn’t it matter. I personally think BW should just put it to bed, but I understand where they’re coming from. There are even angry BW posters on this thread, who have gotten angry over the emotional outbursts of BW complaining about BM not reciprocating, which many BW now find embarrassing. But if you have had a historical amount of trauma as a group, if you’ve fought, marched, and stood with your men, trying to find a better quality of life, as a group, and then your men become the statistic that jumps ship the most for the women who oppressed them, and still oppress them in a court of law today, you have to see how that stings. Other than that, I’ve answered this question. See my last post to you.
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And I have come across BM who get angry when there are BW who prefer non BM. There is a popular youtube channel where BM complain about this, I know a number of BM who did not like Kerry Washington until she married a BM, and I know BM who have completely gone off Halle Berry because her last, and current relationship, involve non Black men. They usually just won’t say exactly why they don’t like these women, choosing instead to use words like “uppity,” or titles like “Fake Black Valley girls.” I’ve even heard BM complain that WM always take the best BW. I know of a relationship where the BW’s relationship with the BM ended because he found out she had had a long term relationship with a WM, before him. There was a story of a BW/WM couple in the South; the WM was severely beaten by a group of BM for walking with her, hand in hand.
Adonis said
1. Anytime a girl is with a guy, another guy wants, he is not going to be happy about it.
Cause you conceded that if Kerry Washington looked like a Mud Duck, black men would not care who she dates.
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I think that both the BM and BW who get offended when they see the opposite gender of their group with non Black partners comes down to more than looks. I think it is the history. There is an article on a website about it, with a number of BM who admitted to feeling discomfort at seeing BW with WM. Neither you or I, can say exactly what the discomfort would be in any given situation. In such situations, I have seen and heard BM say things like “Oh, we’re not good enough for you now,” or “what are you doing with a WM.” So, yes, the racial aspect has come into it before. I don’t think that’s always the case, I just know at times, BM feel a discomfort with it. I choose not to discount a BM feelings on it, if he has any. I’m sensitive to it. I just came across a young brotha the other day, who lives in an area where BW/non BM couples are prevalent, he was very upset about it. You and Alicia have your experiences, I have mine, and they are both true.
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Adonis said
2. BW/WM IR couple do face violence once in a while, and their are notable cases, however it pales in comparison to BM/WW’s resistance.
The opposition to BW/WM getting together is so small.
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I already answered that below.
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Statistically, there has just been far fewer BW/non BM marriages up to this point, so it’s not a demographic that BM feel threatened by. Although, that is not to say that there would be some huge outrage if that became a reality.
Adonis said
“We’ll see. I think BM WILL be fine”
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I’m sorry, but did I say you wouldn’t? Cause I can’t find anywhere where I did. I basically said, if BM felt uncomfortable if BW were all of a sudden married out to non BM, so much so, that there were no longer enough BW for BM, I would understand that. But, I really can’t say, I can’t assume.
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I don’t feel comfortable taking things I have come across and applying it to all BM or BW, because I don’t know every BM or BW.
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Adonis said
I do the opposite
Goodnight
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So you’re like the new racist white man, with no institutional power outside of Black/civil rights organizations, Black religious institutions and Black owned businesses. No disrespect, but who’s looking up to White men and mimicking them now???
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Adonis said
@Alicia @EbonyMonroe
Last comment was for @EbonyMonroe
@Alicia
You have to understand that the attitude among a lot of black women is that black men can do, but won’t do.
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These concepts of placing so much blame on Black women being with thugs, despite the fact that both Black women AND men have high rates of out of wedlock children, but it’s placed firmly on the CHOICES of Black women; which is wrong and it’s very oppressive.
The fact that cats keep barking at sistas that they’re choosing thugs, but fail to realize the fact that 1 in 3 brothas in the US have served jail time, and being that Black women already greatly outnumber Black men; cats don’t acknowledge that if they do the math, they are actually demanding that Black women no longer procreate with Black American men at all.
If sistas speak out about the fact that finding a brotha to settle down with who hasn’t been to jail, is tough, the way cats complain that sistas have on news reports; they are said to be Black male bashing. When the do just overlook it, perhaps by taking the institutional epidemic of Black men being targeted by the law for completely nonviolent crimes, they are then told they obviously love drama and shyt on good men for thugs. They cannot do right for doing wrong. Oh, but if they jump the fence, they are called bed wenches.
Tie in the fact that statistically, Black men are not likely to pop the question, and when they do, it is usually when they’re middle aged. The fact that, in the US, Black women and Asian men are the most racially loyal. And generally speaking, everyone is aware of the “war on drugs” epidemic “slave trade,” but we recognize both this institutional systemic oppression and the loyalty factor, and spit in the faces of Black women for continuing to partner with brothas in the US, and then blame them for their CHOICES? This is only one of the many oppressive narratives inside our community. Oppressive concepts that are often spouted by our own men.
Black women are some of your biggest supporters, I don’t know what you’re on about. We usually understand the social constructs that plague your circumstances.
As I’ve said, you argue that BW are fat, ignoring the social construct that creates this, and since it is easier to attack BW than White supremacy, and the poverty that creates such a situation, that’s what you do. You ignore the social construct, as though BW are fat by choice. But I notice you don’t bring up Hispanic women and their problems with obesity, or YOURS.
Black women are not the biggest claimers of welfare but the story is not told this way? It is fashionable for brothas to refer to BW as welfare queens. Black women are the least likely to give up their children to the state, but this is not acknowledged, the good never is. Black women are accused of not raising good Black men for society, “they have failed as the father and the mother.” But they are also accused of committing Black genocide via their abortion rates. Black women are criticized for not leading as mother and father, and yet criticized for leading?
Divorce rates are statistically linked with those who suffer from poverty the most; being that (if I remember rightly), 50% of Black America lives under the poverty line; yet it is put down to Black women and every stereotype imaginable associated with them. But cats fail to mention that Black male/White female divorce rates are the highest among all interracial marriages. In this case it is linked to “the family not being accepting,” but with sistas, it couldn’t be the systemic oppressions of poverty, and the social constructs that plague BW/BM, it is the attitude. These are all acceptable double standards and communally acceptable demonizations of BW, which only reinforces preexisting oppressions from the White voice. There are heavy problems outside and inside the Black community for Black women, which makes talk that oppression can be attributed to within as well as without, fully legitimate, imho.
There is a lot of racism within our own community, but it is fashionable for it to be geared towards Black women. And it is just that: racism. You can hear it in the language, the ideologies, the stereotyping, the generalizations, that sound so familiar, because I’ve heard it before, I heard it from White people. Luckily as I approach my mid 20’s I find I have finally reached that place where you’re not so wide eyed, but finally able to call something what it is and roll on. I ain’t got time for it, and understand full well that the same hatred that is thought to be confined to some White people is actually rampant in the Black community, too. And that’s just the way it is. This is what BW are talking about when they speak of loyalty. Many of us recognize what you go through, many BM demonize us for what we go through.
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Adonis said
I really appreciate that you add context to the conversation.
Because black men are the least likely to get help from their government & their families, but they are still expected to thrive like white men & black women.
Overlooking all the help that white men & women & black women get.
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You don’t apply any context to BW. It is what it is.
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“Adonis:
Because black men are the least likely to get help from their government & their families, but they are still expected to thrive like white men & black women.”
“Overlooking all the help that white men & women & black women get.”
On top of all of that, black women aren’t criminalized, like black men are, being black men are the target for the justice system and all our young black boys are targeted at an early, as young as 10 years old.
Young black girls and black women are pretty much left alone to pursue their education and careers, that’s why you see more black women, working in corporate America, than black men.
White men are intimidated by black men but not black women, so they discriminate by not hiring black men to work around them and their white women but are quick to hire a black woman, being he isn’t intimidated by a black female and may even want to have sex with a black woman. ( just to experiment with but not to marry or commit to a black women. aka Negro Bed wench )
Black women don’t have to worry about getting shot by a cop or harassed by police like black men do.
I’m not saying that black women don’t face racism but its 10 times worse for a black man.
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@Adonis
You just decided to post proof, so I don’t get your claim of no matter how much sources you post I will be unsatisfied. I had been asking for it for a while now and you just decided to put out. I will read them when I have time, but something tells me you did some half azz search.
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@ Adonis
Your first article talks about waist-to-hip ratio. It does not give indicate at all what that the majority of men think of fit women. While a very interesting article, it fails to prove your first point. If you are going to make claims of the majority then you need to provide something with not only a percentage but with a sample size to back it up.
Your second source also does not back up your claim. I mean it states in it for goodness sake “The translation is that for modern men seeking a one-night stand, a hot body counts.” It also tells the story of cavemen in pursuit of short-term mating strategy.
As for the idea of men wanting younger women, I never disputed that so this is just stuffing or deflection from my main disagreements with your post.
Also never disagreed on the issues of men dating single moms because I would not date a single dad( the feeling is mutual). But since we are on the subject then I am going to point out that the list is nothing more than why men don’t like dating them. Not those men don’t date them or don’t see them as potential.
No, I don’t wonder why men check for single mom but I do realize that is your opinion of why they do it. Nice try but nope. When you make big claims then you have to put up big proof not subpar. If there are more articles then you should have chose better ones.
I have not read the book so I will not dive into an opinions on it, but you really seem to take opinions to be an indication of a fact.
I don’t have an agenda. It is just something else you keep pretending I have in hopes of me no longer questioning this deluded idea that you know the inside and out of men and women worldwide. Next time do pull out the full scholarship or the actual one because what you pulled out was a blank paper.
But EbonyMonroe has been doing absolutely amazing at echoing my same feelings and better than I ever could.
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@ EbonyMonroe
“I think the other issue with Hispanics is that many don’t identify as Black, even if they are.”—This is very true and I don’t think my husband would not identify as such if he had not been raised up around a majority of black people. His mother does not and she is darker than him.
“.So the Black community often identifies them as being White”—I agree with this as well. Many do and even my own relatives have been guilty of this. With so many people being mixed…these labels are just a waste and completely unnecessary.
“So I hesitate to view them as non “European,” until they tell me otherwise. Not only because of previous encounters, but also out of respect for the way one chooses to define themselves, even if the definition is technically untrue.”—I tend to sway away from that as well or better I avoid any conversation that would require me to label them.
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My post to Alicia should read
* 60% of Black girls are raped or have been sexually assaulted before the age of 18.
My post @ Adonis should read
* Black men, Black women, Hispanic men, and Hispanic women, are leading in obesity in the US
My second post @Adonis should read
* and have a deep affection for you as their men.
* why it may sting when your men turn around and marry non BW over BW more than any other race of men when it comes to their own vs. other women.
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Agreed @ Sharina
I just say Hispanic and leave it at that. I used to just call my ex Puerto rican, not Black and not White, I just used the definition he did (Puerto rican).
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v8driver,
“@solesearch kinda tired now, have to check back, it is my understanding you were saying something like ‘white pride’ seemingly as a collective goal or something not a subset of white people or something like that which to me seems very close to ‘white power’ ss tats all that”
That was EbonyMonroe.
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It’s amazing that when the discussion turns to black women and not just black people so many black folks turn into white supremacists.
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@sondis
Thank you. Black women HARDLY EVER acknowledge the HELP that they get on the road to success, that black men do not get.
Governmental support.
But they will hit you with the “we are coming out of the same household” game.
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@Sharina
It is a futile exercise. I am dealing with someone who is playing dumb, who is trolling.
When you flee from Fantasy Island, the truth will smack you in the face anyway.
I won’t be there to relish it, but my work has been done.
Good Day
When I run into articles that confirm the truth, I will post them.
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@Solesearch
100% agree!!
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@EbonyMonroe
She responded to Alicia
Alicia said
“I will also say that I know black people, including black men (whom are expected to hold down a family) have much less chances for advancement in Britian, compared to the US which mt contribute to certain things I noticed while there.”
“@EbonyMonroe,
Most black men are not making any complaints about Halle Berry or the other celebs whom are dating IR. I have dated IR and in heavily black areas, black men never cared.”
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I never implied that most BM have complaints about BW marrying out. I implied that the idea that it is not something that would make BM feels uncomfortable if BW married out to the point where there were not enough BW for BM should they prefer to settle down with BW, the way many BW often prefer BM, but that option was affected, I don’t believe no BM would have a problem with it. And I was simply stated that I have encountered BM feeling uncomfortable with seeing BW with non BM. I remember when a picture of Bria Miles with her White boyfriend was posted on here, the reaction from a few brothas was “noooooooo, not Bria.” It is unrealistic for you to assume that your experiences can account for how every or any BM would feel if BW married out in large proportions, just going by the BM in your limited surroundings.
Bria Myles is attractive. So is Kim Kardashian. Brothas will holla about that, and then go about their day.
Sistas get stupid when BM partake in IR dating, but leave the BW who do it alone.
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Alicia said
“@Peanut, EbonyMonroe,
Do you fully understand what Black men face under White supremacy?
Do you?”
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What have I said about BM? At what point have I alluded to BM having it easy? I’m getting a serious Shahrazad Ali vibe from you, at this point. Every time a BW speaks on anything negative she has experienced from a BM, you jump in and say BW do it, too. Every time a BM has said something extremely disrespectful and offensive about BW on this thread, you have overlooked it to stay in alignment with the BM’s plight.
A lot of BW issues are not SYSTEMATIC, especially when dealing with BM.
Outside of your family, you choose the kind of BM to include in your lives.
I have always been a supporter of BM, for the last few weeks I have been so proud of Obama for taking steps to adjust the “War against drugs” that has resulted in millions of African American men serving ridiculous amounts of time in the modern slave trade known as the prison industrial complex, used as cheap labor for multimillion dollar corporations.
Cool Beans
I am aware that BM outnumber WM in college attendance, but it is not acknowledged.
Raw numbers or percentages
I am aware that, statistically speaking, BM spend more time with their children than any other group of men, though they are stereotyped as absentee fathers.
Glad you know
I am aware of the fact that BM spend an incredible larger amount of time in jail for non violent crimes in comparison to White male pedophiles and murderers.
I believe you, but where is the link?
I am aware of the race and wage gap that affects BM. I am aware of the judicial, occupational, domestic, and social issues that BM are up against. And I am very proud of them.
Cool beans
The thing that irritates many BW is how individuals like yourself seem to allude to the idea that BM have it harder than BW do.
More true than it is not. Because black women don’t acknowledge the assistance they get to succeed in America.
They love to focus on the plight.
*The number 1 killer of BW in the US and the UK is domestic violence
You mean the men that they choose to sleep with. Lol
*60% of BW in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted by age 16-18
This is why you need to pick HUSBAND (regardless of race) that will stick with you & protect your home, and being so loose with your dating practices.
* You’ve heard of Trayvon Martin, and you saw BW come out in droves, but have you heard of Rekia Boyd, or Aiyana Jones, or Keyarika Diggles.
BM’s mortality is way more affected by white supremacy than BW
* BW don’t claim the most government assistance in the US, nor do they benefit the most from Affirmative action, WW do. But BW are demonized as welfare queens.
True. And white media demonizes BW. Black men do not own any media outlets.
*BW outnumber everyone in college attendance, but they still face both the race and wage gap. BM business owners make more money than BW business owners.
This goes back to choices. What kind of degrees BW are getting.
Chances are, these degree are not valuable to society.
Also, I will concede that, you still have to “bring it” talent wise as a black woman to succeed. But go where the real money.
Stop doing the bare minimum, and expect a six figure salary.
If BM are out doing BW in business, it tells me BM are more thorough in BUSINESS than BW.
If you have ANY other theories that differ, please share.
* Black women are filling up jails in the US, like 2 or 3 times the rate of BM, but I bet you didn’t know that.
Are black women being TARGETED or are they committing real crimes?
I think it could be both, but I will hold my opinion until more info comes out
* Black women are statistically the least likely to give up their children to the state, but even though it is a disadvantage being a single parent, they are blamed for their own oppressions because they are said to have all the power as the only adults in their households. BW are blamed for their own oppressions just as much, if not more so, than BM are. The only difference, is that the oppressions BW faced are pushed out to make room for a monolithic narrative of BM being the face of Black disadvantage.
If you are having kids with subpar men, before your finances are handled, why you do expect to be seen positively for keeping or abandoning your children.
YOU DIDN’T EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO PLAN FOR THEM!!!
Nor you took the time to find a capable HUSBAND to help you RAISE THEM.
That is why society is upset with you. Legit.
I acknowledge that their is a racial element to this, but address those two points I put in bold letters.
We worship cats like Nathan Mccall who gang r@ped countless young Black girls in his book “Makes me wanna holler,” he hasn’t served one day for it, but since he talks about White supremacy, and is a BM we overlook, in favor of his plight. This attitude leads to situations like what happened with the Dunbar village gang r@pe case, which the Florida police department even admitted, was one of the worst crimes they had ever come across, it was horrific. But when the NAACP and Al Sharpton were contacted, they said they weren’t interested, until the last minute when the sentences were handed down and they came out the woodwork to defend the perpetrators, and not the mother and her child.
Again, rape is not systematic. There is no system for black men to rape anybody with impunity.
Why did Al Sharpton & the NAACP did what they did, I have no idea, I have to research.
I definitely feel BOTH BM and BW have it equally as hard, just harder and easier in different areas. I mean this with no disrespect, I really don’t, but if we’re going to get into some oppression Olympics, let’s just end this now. I cannot subscribe to that, at all.
I believe that you are the first or second BW to outline the plight of BM.
Most of the time, we hear how BM are doing BW wrong, not right.
And we hardly ever hear BW acknowledging the HELP they get in their success.
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@ soulsearch/v8driver
When I referred to a sense of pride in White, Indian, and Middle Eastern communities, I was not talking about supremacist groups, or pride founded on the concept of the inferiority of other groups, at all. I was referring to a sense of pride in their communities as it relates to, one another, a sense of community. I mentioned a comment I had overheard from a White guy who was saying he likes having a White wife and blue eye’d, blonde haired babies. I labelled it as a “very ignorant” this to say.
Away from that, generally, I was simply comparing the sense of community and unity displayed by other cultures/races, in comparison to BMBW in the US and Afro Caribbean BMBW in the UK, which, to an extent, I believe to be responsible for a lot of our oppression, as we ourselves have digested a great deal of White supremacism, which is quite evident, even throughout this comment section.
@Soulsearch
Soulsearch said
“It’s amazing the minute the discussion turn to black women and not just black people so many black folks turn into white supremacists.”
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This is exactly what I was saying before. That it’s not just about moving into the middle class and becoming affluent. There are often other issues at play here. Unless I am mistaken in regards to what kind of posts you were referring to.
@ Adonis
Adonis said
“No good” IMO means low value
Fat, old, high body count, OOW children, poor relationship intangibles, daddy issues.
I would LOVE (emphasis mine) to be able to say the majority of BW fall under this umbrella, but I can definitely say, at least 40% of BW this applies to.”
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Awww man! Lol. I actually spent a good 10-15 minutes answering your post, while this quote went completely over my head. All this time, not noticing that as you say, YOU WOULD LOVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY BW FALL UNDER THIS UMBRELLA. LMBO. You’re one of those Black guys, who enjoys talking down about BW. You get off on it, as you said, you would LOVE to be able to say each and every BW is fat, old, has a high body count (a harlot), has OOW children, poor relationship intangibles, and has daddy issues. You would LOVE it, you’d enjoy being able to say that. And there I was actually entertaining your opinions and questions. Alright, you got me.
Another funny point is, you and Sondis have been arguing with Peanut this whole time about BM hatred towards BW, while you (Adonis) LOVE, ENJOY, AND GET OFF on throwing every possible problem/flaw/oppression BW deal with right in their faces. Which could only be done out of pure hatred. You couldn’t enjoy the misery, suffering and disadvantages of some, or an entire people group, if you didn’t hate them.
I’m rotf at my naivete. That was a good one. But, you had me there for a minute.
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@EbonyMonroe
NOTE: I butchered the BlockQuote in my last comment. Abagond please delete that.
She responded to Alicia
Bria Myles is attractive. So is Kim Kardashian. Brothas will holla about that, and then go about their day.
Sistas get stupid when BM partake in IR dating, but leave the BW who do it alone.
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A lot of BW issues are not SYSTEMATIC, especially when dealing with BM.
Outside of your family, you choose the kind of BM to include in your lives.
Cool Beans
Raw numbers or percentages
Glad you know
I believe you, but where is the link?
Cool beans
More true than it is not. Because black women don’t acknowledge the assistance they get to succeed in America.
They love to focus on the plight.
You mean the men that they choose to sleep with. Lol
This is why you need to pick HUSBAND (regardless of race) that will stick with you & protect your home, and being so loose with your dating practices.
BM’s mortality is way more affected by white supremacy than BW
True. And white media demonizes BW. Black men do not own any media outlets.
This goes back to choices. What kind of degrees BW are getting.
Chances are, these degree are not valuable to society.
Also, I will concede that, you still have to “bring it” talent wise as a black woman to succeed. But go where the real money.
Stop doing the bare minimum, and expect a six figure salary.
If BM are out doing BW in business, it tells me BM are more thorough in BUSINESS than BW.
If you have ANY other theories that differ, please share.
Are black women being TARGETED or are they committing real crimes?
I think it could be both, but I will hold my opinion until more info comes out
If you are having kids with subpar men, before your finances are handled, why you do expect to be seen positively for keeping or abandoning your children.
YOU DIDN’T EVEN TAKE THE TIME TO PLAN FOR THEM!!!
Nor you took the time to find a capable HUSBAND to help you RAISE THEM.
That is why society is upset with you. Legit.
I acknowledge that their is a racial element to this, but address those two points I put in bold letters.
Again, rape is not systematic. There is no system for black men to rape anybody with impunity.
Why did Al Sharpton & the NAACP did what they did, I have no idea, I have to research.
I believe that you are the first or second BW to outline the plight of BM.
Most of the time, we hear how BM are doing BW wrong, not right.
And we hardly ever hear BW acknowledging the HELP they get in their success.
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@ Adonis
You’re right. It is futile, but it is futile for a few reasons.
1. You can’t turn an opinion into a fact. As the saying goes “you are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.” No one has any real idea what people want and to claim as such is just wasted to begin with.
2. You focused more on assumptions about me rather than the claim you made. This completely washed your credibility as a serious debater (for me anyway). Had your focus been strictly on this I would probably have given you more credit.
3. You kept changing the goal post. Oh she might not have a man because etc. etc. Um duh which still proves your cut and dry list is not something that guarantees the “valuable” women a large source of “valuable” men.
You call it fantasy Island…I call it reality. Try joining it.
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@Solesearch
Oh yes and it is completely mind boggling.
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@ Adonis
I’m sorry, but if you are alluding to 60% of Black girls being raped between the ages of 0-16 is down to choices. This conversation is over.
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Like you, Ebonymonroe, I am also intrigued if this is what Adonis means…^^
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@EbonyMonroe
Yes, choices that the mother made.
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@Bulanik @EbonyMonroe
If you are allowing wayward men into your household instead of having children with your husband,
That would limit the number of black girls being raped in these households.
I am excluding the BW who are being raped by male family members, if that is most of the crime, then there is nothing I know of you can do about it.
We are talking about scenario like Adrian Peterson’s child, where a outsider came in and abused your child.
Black female choices play a huge role in this.
I believe the popular Youtuber is Tommy Sotomayor
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@ Adonis, just out of curiosity, could you tell me what is:
1. rape, and, for good measure,
2. domestic violence.
?
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@Adonis
oh man! I feel like such a sucker for even taking you half-seriously! Your last comment was reeked of stinking, self-entitled male privilege…and that just putting it in the nicest way possible….moving on…..
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@EbonyMonroe
I bet it did, lol.
I enjoy the demise of a lot of BW because a lot of you are not honest & a lot of you are CREATING YOUR OWN PROBLEMS, like OOW children & poor choices in MEN.
The real victims that happen to be Black Women, are cool.
It is the impostors, black male haters, KneeGrow Bed Wench, I take glee in breaking down. Just to be clear
You ignore context when it is convenient @EbonyMonroe
I will have a black wife.
Well considering I LOVE & RESPECT wha Antoinette Tuff did to save those schoolchildren, herself & the gunman.
I love & would sleep with Oprah given half the chance.
I love the show Scandal & the women who are responsible for helping it get on television (Shonda Rhimes & Judy Smith)
Considering my favorite heartthrobs are DARKSKIN curvy American BW (Bria Myles, Briana Bette & Jenny Jahaan)
I appreciate any black woman who brings positive value to my life, or make it to the MSM for positive reasons.
So, yes, I am not denying that I take glee when black women fall due to their poor choices. I wear that badge proudly.
I am glad you enjoyed it.
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@Bulanik
My definition
Or
The “Standard” definition
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Knock yourself out tell me about YOURS, Adonis, dear.
(But try to avoid too many specific references to American culture, because I won’t know what you are talking about.)
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@Dauphine
“White” Male privilege & Black Men do not mix.
Someone sold you a bill of goods.
Black men can be powerless in society, but yet when black women want b**** & moan about oppression, BM get criticized.
Which one is it?
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Also, whilst you are at it, please could tell me what you mean by breaking a woman down?
What is this breaking down that you are proud of?
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@Bulanik
No comment. This thread can’t handle it.
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@ Adonis, that reply is rather unconvincing.
You have written yourself into a corner, I fear.
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@Bulanik
Breaking down a woman is simply reminding her of her choice that led her to the messed up situation she in now.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Men & women are miles apart of what is rape, harassment and what is not rape.
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@ Dauphine
Is breaking a woman down part of the black male privilege you refer to?
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@Bulanik
I am not running. 🙂
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@ Adonis, I need more and better information.
Surely, all that you have written are not “reminder” snippets, are they?
*
As for rape, Ebonymonroe was quite specific.
She said children raped between the ages of 0 to 16. That is infanthood to mid-teens.
You believe their is a chasm of gender interpretation for such ^^, do you?
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*there
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@ Adonis
Then spill forth, non-runner. Break it down for us.
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😀 😀
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@ Adonis, also waiting for the Adonis Version of Domestic Battery.
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@Bulanik
I just want to point out, how she did not bring up the 0-16 boys who are raped.
So, she already established that girls who are raped matters more. That is her perogative.
Also, age of consent should be applied equally among gender & race.
But if we are not going to do that, then we should eliminate it.
As for me, I need to video record my s-xual interactions for my protection
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@Bulanik
Violence Against Women Act Needs to be eliminated.
And women need to choose better men.
If you get beat up by a man you chose to live with, outside of your family members, you deserved it.
Choose better men. They are out there.
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@ Adonis!
(…perhaps you should let Ebonymonroe answer that.
I doubt if you can infer what she privileges, simply because she provides one set of statistics. )
But that isn’t her point, or mine is it.
Please be so kind as to remain on track.
When children are raped — as I said:
You believe their is a chasm of gender interpretation for the rape of infants?
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@Bulanik
I am talking about his complete removal of the actions of men in the rape of those women. What he is essentially saying isn’t:
Black/other men rape black women.
he saying:
Black women are raped.
He is blaming the victims and completely removing the actions of men from the equation. That is part of male privilege, race has nothing with it.
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*…has nothing to do with it
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@Bulanik
Forgive me, if you feel if I am derailing.
Infants are not 0-16. And yes, gender matters.
Rape is when a woman says no, and a dude keeping going.
Other than that, rape is very gray.
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@ Dauphine, thank you. I understand precisely what you were saying.
Blaming the victims rape, whether the victim is male or female, men can prevent that happening. They can not rape. Simple.
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@Dauphine
(sarcasm on)Haven’t you heard? It is not the black man’s fault. It is the white man for holding them down and the black women who do not support them. (sarcasm off)
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@Adonis
You revel in the oppressions of BW who are lists in statistics, so no, you do not know whether or not they’re due to choices. You’re getting off on the pain of millions of people you do not know, because of their race and gender. The better educated, the more likely BM and BW are to marry, 70-75% of them marry eachother after college by age 35. Sadly, many of these marriages do not last. If your attitude is anything to go by, I can see why.
As I have said, creating children out of wedlock is a two way street. Men are not putting condoms on it, and they’re leaving their kids. Poverty affects the AA community more than any other in the US, the 40% you quoted is quite possibly attributed to the 50% of AAs who are living UNDER THE POVERTY LINE. Poverty breeds lack of education, violent enviroments, misogyny, ignorance, sexual violence, child molestation, sexual promiscuity, STD’s, OOW births. These epidemics are the same for White people living in the US. But AAs are affected by poverty the most. Even 50% of African American men are affected by unemployment in New York, right now, because of the economy. They say when the AA community catches the flu, America gets a runny nose, I say when America gets a runny nose, the AA community is on their death-bed died.
It is very sad that men like you & you “team Tommy Sotomayors,” enjoy exploiting the oppressions and cycles of disadvantage that plagues your own community. You enjoy it. Finding pleasure from the pain of your own people must be a real benefit, because there has always been so much of it. Good for you, for turning a bad situation into something you can enjoy.
No! Normal well adjusted men define rape the same way women do. The legal way. Get to know them, they’d be a good influence. I agree that molestation is attributed to single single parent homes, as children who are the product of such a set up are more likely to experience this. But just as much as it could be said that BW should make better choices and hold off until marriage, it can be said that BM should stop leaving the home, and sleeping around without putting a condom on it. BM AND BW are making bad choices, and they’re often making them together. There’s nothing you can say about BW in regards to this epidemic that couldn’t be flipped in BM. It takes two. And by the way the majority of rapists know their attackers, they are usually family members, close family friends, or neighbors. So there’s no point getting into attributing it to BW and their boyfriends. Maybe we have a problem with misogyny in the Black community; our music, the youtube hate sppech for BW&Gs, and the epidemics of sexual abuse definitely says that’s a good possibility, even your attitudes towards rape are. Maybe the behaviors of BM are just as much a problem as BWs. Did you enjoy Asia Mcgowen (a beautiful young, sweet, innocent BG), being killed (shot to death) by one of Srgt. Willie Pete’s followers for no reason? That must have been a highlight. Maybe this hatred for BW&Gs will spill over into the real world again, you’ll be another glorious day of celebration, won’t you.
I see that you addressed my post to Alicia while conveniently ignoring my actual posts to you.
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@ Adonis.
You still haven’t answered the question. A 5 year old, or an 8 year old is not a “woman”. Nor is a 13 year old girl.
*************
And, no, I don’t forgive you for de-railing. And it is not something I FEEL.
Your replies are composed as deflections to distract us from the issue.
Moreover, when Ebonymonroe cited this figure 0-16, what designation does age ZERO have? An infant is the very young offspring of a human. They grow into toddlers, and so on.
**************
Again, when children are raped (minors, youngsters, and the like):
Do you believe there is a chasm of gender interpretation for their violation and rape?
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Nope, I am fully aware of the statistics relating to Black boys and rape. All I did was take the time to describe the traumas many BW face, just to paint a picture of how much BW go through because of their race and gender, as well as BM. But, the last time I checked BGs, over the years, have been at the receiving end of child molestation and teenage and adult rape far more. Unless that has changed. But that’s neither here nor there as both statistics are disgusting to me and need to be addressed.
The fact that you blame BG rape victims for the amount of rapes, gang rapes, and child molestation, they’re on the receiving end of, the fact that you say it is down to CHOICE, the fact that you say BW who are beaten to death, deserve it, as though you know that every girl see’s it coming, as though abusers aren’t known to groom their victims and their families for long periods of time until the victim is completely isolated. The fact that you attribute these disgusting statistics to choices and say THEY DESERVE IT, I am no longer interested in speaking to you. You’ve got a serious problem, and just like Peanut I am disgusted by the way BM like you troll the internet showing good BM up, with your ignorance, misogyny and racism.
I truly pray to God that you don’t marry a Black woman, we’ve got enough problems without dealing with dudes like you. Please do not marry a BW, I wouldn’t wish such a man on any woman, and I wouldn’t wish for children to be raised by a man with such disturbing opinions. You need help. Do the honorable and tell potential BW you meet, exactly what your opinions are so they can bounce.
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Ebony,
“Unless I am mistaken in regards to what kind of posts you were referring to.”
I was talking about the posts from Adonis and Sondis.
From them we’ve heard every racist trope about black women as a means to defend black men’s larger dating out numbers as if it needed to be defended. Oh wait yes it does need to be defended because some people think dating out of your race is disloyal to black people.
So if you have that view point black men are sell outs. Black men need to defend themselves by “proving” how black women don’t date out as much, not out of loyalty, but because no one wants them. because they are sapphires, jezebels, and mammies.
Also to further absolve black men of the heinous crime of dating out and make black women even more complicit in their crimes of being sapphires, jezebels, and mammies they deny black women experience sexism or racism anywhere near as much as non-black women and black men respectively do.
But now it’s time for the encore where we get to here Adonis tell us how black women and girls are unrapeable.
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@Solesearch
Perhaps this why is there are such a disproportionate amount of domestic and sexual crimes committed against BW, because these opinions seem to be quite rife within the Black community. So it goes without saying.
Oh and yes, since a few BW get upset that BM marry out, we all do. It isn’t that a few do, but most could care less. But, but, but… when a few BM get upset that BW date out, this is a few BM not all, because we are respectfully rational when we hear of the few bad reactions of BM @ BW who date and marry out, we don’t generalise them.
I have come to strange place in my mind. I wonder if White supremacy came to an end and Black supremacy (with BM assuming the headship WM do, and BW assuming second position that WW do), or complete power equality came about between th races, would BW have replaced one source of oppression with another? Would our quality of life be better, or worse? As Jamiroquai said, “we’ve got to know what we’re demanding.” Chew on-eth that-eth.
A BW said something along those lines to me the other day, I fear I was wrong to dismiss her theory. After one too many of these encounters my position must change.
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You step over husband-material men of all races to get to these deadbeats. That is why I do not take BM to task for this.
If you like a certain type of men. Take full responsibility for that.
That men is just presenting himself to you, you are accepting that.
That is why men get off the hook for that.
——
I am working on it now, having the time of my life.
I addressed the comment IN ORDER.
They were DISSERTATIONS, not essays homie.
Give it time.
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@bulanik
Chasm, gender interpretation on rape.
Yes, I already answered the question, however you are so focused on the so-called derailments, you ignore when I addressed the topic.
Yes their is a chasm between the genders.
And it is different when a boy is raped, than when it is a girl.
There.
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@ebonymonroe
Mostly choices.
There are some victims out there. But mostly black women engineer their misfortune.
For the real victims, not the impostors, you have I show then compassion, and work it from there.
And get over yourself.
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@ Adonis,
You know it was you who brought in the reference to “derailments”, asking me to forgive you.
I asked a simple question but you gave scatter-shot replies, which, at best, sound like you don’t really have any defence you could detail for us.
So, what you are saying is that when a child is raped BY A MAN, in the eyes of all men, the rapist is not responsible for that act.
Okay. Got it.
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@BR.. I love blues and old time African American music. Most of that music is no longer broadly popular among black people either as musicians or performers though there are some black people doing their best to bring it back and update it for modern times(Carolina Chocolate Drops, Alvin Hart, Corey Harris, etc…).
One can debate as to whether certain particular types of music are no longer popular merely because times change and black American music tends to change very fast (which is what I think most of it is) or if certain music styles are unfairly associated with regressive/submissive social attitudes (which appears to be how you feel about tap dancing) or if the functions that those types of music used to fulfill for the black community are now being done by new forms of music (also a big part of what I think it is).
But whatever it is times change. Like the song says “Everything must change”. The chances of seeing tap dancing and/or banjo/fiddle playing or other older forms of expression become broadly popular within the black community again are close to nil. It is what it is. I like klezmer but that too is also something which is no longer hugely popular among young Jewish Americans. People always move forward.
As far as SNCC, CORE,etc it’s unsurprising that black people, who were consistently told they were too incompetent to run things and some of whom may have believed it, would have demanded the chance to run their own organizations. Like any other group, they wanted to be in charge of their political and social organizations.
IRRs are MORE common now than they were in the sixties.So I don’t think that any alleged anti-IRR conspiracy took place. If so it wasn’t effective. Most of what such people were talking about involved exhorting black people to find the beauty in themselves. If you can do that and then still wish to marry someone of a different race then fine. But don’t try to run away from your blackness by choosing white just because it’s white. That was the feeling in some places then and now.
Even groups that counted on white allies and claimed to have no problems with IIRs (Black Panthers for one) still insisted that Black organizations have black leaders and that sympathetic whites work to organize their own communities.
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@bulanik
If he is a black man, and you have evidence, he is going to jail.
I think the issues with rape is that,
It can be difficult to prove.
And false rape accusations can help its cause.
If the child is raped by a male family member, no one is at immediately at fault, it is very difficult to defend against that.
The truth is, we have bad men in our community. That is not going away anytime soon. What do you do?
One step is to pick more thorough men to be around.
Nothing you can do if you have a rapist in your family.
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@ Adonis.
Yes, of course….Thanks for that, Adonis.
{Bulanik sips her Earl Grey tea and looks out the window blankly…}
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Anyone have any stats for rape CONVICTIONS?
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Ebony,
“I have come to strange place in my mind. I wonder if White supremacy came to an end and Black supremacy (with BM assuming the headship WM do, and BW assuming second position that WW do), or complete power equality came about between the races, would BW have replaced one source of oppression with another? Would our quality of life be better, or worse? As Jamiroquai said, “we’ve got to know what we’re demanding.” Chew on-eth that-eth.”
We already exist under a black male patriarchy, so it wouldn’t replace anything it would just continue, so the quality of life would definitely be better in my opinion.
But we still need to fight for our rights as black women. Black men and non-black women aren’t going to be our allies in that just by virtue of being black or a woman.
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@ Bulanik,
“Blaming the victims rape, whether the victim is male or female, men can prevent that happening. They can not rape. Simple.”
Simple, huh? Men, in general, can prevent that from happening? Well, since most men are not rapists, I’m not sure how you figure that they can stop all of the other PEOPLE (men and women) who are rapists. After all, they are already following your simplistic advice and not raping. So……
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@ ks, do you think it is simpler then, to tell women and girls (not ALL women and girls, mind you) not to ASK FOR IT, instead, because that has been the alternative, no?
I was talking about responsibility….didn’t you follow that>>?
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@ ks, also, when did rapist suddenly apply to ALL men?
Please don’t put words into my mouth.
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@solesearch
Black male patriarchy. Smh
Who runs this black male patriarchy, @solesearch?
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@solesearch
Hi
You make it seem like as if we are overlooking great black women for good non-black women.
And you keep overlooking, the fact that BLACK WOMEN HAVE PREFERENCES TOO. Some black men do not get chose!
Most BW problems are self-inflicted.
I agree that black women need to focus on the the men that DO want over the men that DON’T.
Being a Jumpoff or a LOOSE woman if a mutually beneficial endeavor.
Hee!
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@Bulanik,
No that has not been the alternative and your entire “simpler” either/or construction is a dubious dodge. Both positions, telling women not to ask for it and telling men not to rape, are silly. It goes from broadly blaming the victims to broadly blaming a group.
Also, I didn’t put words into your mouth. You simply repeated a generic feminst slogan, which implies exactly that, without thinking it through.
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@ ks
So, according to your exquisite logic,
– when A CRIME is involved
– they victim and perpetrator are equally culpable, and,
– saying the perpetrator is somehow responsible, or worse, for their behaviour — is SILLINESS!
If blaming the victim is “silly”, where were YOU when it was said above, ks?
*******************************************
Yes, you put words into my mouth.
We were discussing the rape of adults and minors.
We were not talking about the women raping men and children.
YOU brought that in, because you wanted to muddy the waters, to deflect focus away from male violence.
I did not say “rapist” = ALL men. That is not my habit.
If I was in sports marketing I wouldn’t say “Sneakers for sale in rapists’ sizes.”
Instead:
What you merely did was IMAGINED what I was thinking and said it came from my keyboard. That doesn’t take much skill on your part.
Now, where are my figures on black women convicted of raping black men?
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@EbonyMonroe
Agreed. But weight affects BW more than BM. Fat BM are not an issue with BW, but fat BW are problematic for BM.
BW are more outraged with BM who date out.
Black men who are boring.
Black men who lack finances (when it is convenient)
I feel the exact same way when BW choose to procreate with deadbeat of any race, and get mad when black men decide to take their talents to non-BW.
But it doesn’t fit your victim narrative.
Also, if you are poor & choose to have children with subpar men. That is a YOU problem.
That is INDEFENSIBLE.
Ask the black men you are SLEEPING with @EbonyMonroe to defend you. Stop asking BM who you mostly ignore, to go to bat for you.
You support the men that you like or the men that support your interests
There is no benefit for me to help you out. Give me incentive…
Fat BW are problematic. Fat BM are LESS problematic.
OLDER BM & OLDER BW are not equal.
We have different value systems for each.
When you get older, you will know that first hand.
Some h0es will get married (to low-value men), but for the most part,
Loose women are for fun.
Conservative women are for marriage.
There are many BW who have children by the same man. That is why their will be more BW with kids than BM with kids.
Exactly
Remember BW are the ones complaining about not being picked, I am just explaining why. Men grin & bear, and because of the INTERNET, you hear from us in the recent moments
…………………………………………………….
My problem with the loyalty argument, it is the implications. It implies that black women are doing a noble act, even a moral one.
My belief is, with all black men, especially when they don’t have the benefits of ANY GROUP of people, including Black Women, are going to where the women appreciate them.
The loyalty argument doesn’t account for the black men who want to date black women, but black women don’t want them.
Black women are still in denial about this. Because you want these men to be back-up in case the men you want decides not to marry you.
I am in full support of BW dating out.
I just do not co-sign the KneeGrow Bed Wench mentality.
And I will always feel some type of way when BM & WM are held to different standards.
The virtue angle is what @peanut was implying.
Black women need to bring a quality woman to the table romantically. End. Of.
Black women either support their male family members OR the black men they like.
Black women would still deal with these men, whether or not they sleep with WW on-screen or off-screen.
It is fun for me either way.
Black women deal with BM they like out of SELF-INTEREST, nothing more, nothing less.
You did not answer my question.
I could care less about Asian politics right now. You are tap-dancing.
And you don’t highlight, BLACK FEMALE AGENCY. BLACK WOMEN HAVE PREFERENCES TOO.
But a great response tho.
Basically, black women need to date out more, and be happy.
You have always had access to non-BM. Knock yourself out
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Shady , great to hear from you about this….lots to address
I brought the SNCC paper in to show the larger picture of the political trend of the black American activist direction, or, at least one of them, because there were various fronts, and conflicts in those fronts as I explained about MLK and Malcolm positions. I never implied that was bad, and said that to , I beleive it was D…I brought it in to show how the stage is being set for various political agendas , which, among the good ones , there wer flawed ones, ones that did great damage that carries over into today and is on display right here…and I used tap and Armstrong as examples of other flawed agendas that came out of that period, to show that there were flawed agendas that need to be addressed and corrected
Then, I hope you saw that I brought in exactly where flawed agendas did come in about interracial dating , but , two flawed agendas, which have become the towering infernos of the conflicts on display right here
The paper was from the Femanin black Liberation Movement, and , unfortunatly, i feel a political agenda from them also, but, you cant deny their statement of the histoy in the movement, and there were some black men in that movement who were pushing the anti interracial agenda , and I emphasise they dont represent black men, but , the political agenda has become of the black dilogue, and has been used on here , in various threads..
really, if anyone can comprehend that correctly, it is all too clear about the damage of both political agendas,and the orgins of it, which was under the umbrella of 60’s Black Nationalist rhetoric.. even with Garvey, and The Nation of Islam,Baldwin,and Richard Right, before the basic political rhetoric that is anti interracial sex from the black political stance, from some people today, is the rhetoric from that era…its almost outlined in that paper…as a matter of fact, its eery to see, and see it recreated in dabates here, regurgitated with out really analysing it…it is the source of these towering internos about debate among black people of interracial sex, against the back drop of white racism, who play the anti interracial sex game better than anyone
And is a flawed agenda ,like the cultural assination of tap and Armstrong..
sorry, I dont buy that , oh trends just move on…that isnt what happened…tap was thrown under the bus…this great great high art form and artists…even with the work of Gregory Hines and Savion, it still has not regained the respect and admiration it deserves…fine new dances come in, but they arnt exactly the same, you have to see these artists dancing to the beat it was made for…tappers influenced bop drummers to drop bass drum bombs like the tappers dropping their heals
Im not saying everyone needs start tapping, just give these wonderful artists the respect they seriously deserve, welcome them back into the fold with open arms and tell their stories
Gosh, I dont play Armstrong on the box, but , seeing the ken Burns docu, and telling his story is jaw dropping, i never knew he influenced pretty much every singer after him in the swing era
You know, Trane and Miles knew their history, Wynton knows the history, i consider myself contemporary and Im trying to innovate new beats (good luck on trying to make it popular), but , I seriously beleive in educating myself on various Afro diasporic idioms and their histories, and then, low and behold, i see an Afro Brazilian folklorico group doing what unbeleivably doing tap, but they never were influenced by tap at all…these kind of ‘a ha!” moments are the mind boggling education you get if you dont bury culture and study it
These flawed political agendas need to be tweaked and readjusted to truly deal with the realities today…black men and women dont need to be at each others throats over flawed agendas from the start, and Afro diasporic cultures are the fonte of self esteem , pride and educational, and histories that are phenominal in their struggle against racism and depth of substance
Juba had to use cork , or he couldnt go on stage, the value of tap has to be seperated from the white racist barriors put on these entertainers, that manifest in their own ways today…its big time in Brazil
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@ ks, on closer reading you said:
I am not familiar with “the slogan” you mention. I have NEVER heard it.
Finally, you have made an inference.
This is “a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.” Your own.
What YOU imagine I implied is another matter.
This is how you put words into my mouth to suit you and turn the discussion.
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@bulanik,
“So, according to your exquisite logic,
– when A CRIME is involved
– they victim and perpetrator are equally culpable, and,
– saying the perpetrator is somehow responsible, or worse, for their behaviour — is SILLINESS!”
Oh stop trying to spin your way out of your rhetorical fail. That’s an embarrasingly bad attempt to reframe your spin as my “logic”. As you well know, what I said was that telling women not to ask for it and telling men not to rape are both silly positions because they rest on broad assumptions that are based on logical fallacies. Since you couldn’t refute that, you spun it with the above nonsense and the rest of your diversionary spin, the latter of which I chose to ignore.
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Shady, Id like to run another thought by you related to Pharoh Sanders…
I really do beleive the 60’s Black Civil Rights Movement , was far more of a political movement than a cultural one….and , the lack of a deeper cultual focus is some of the reasons for the self esteem issues reffered to on here,some of the colorisation issues on here and the general frustration with the media, which will never give it up…never..only occaisionaly something special breaks through, with a tidal wave of culture and artists held back…
Its perplexing to me in that era, for sure you had artists like james Brown and Stevie Wonder, the Last Poets, marvin Gaye, etc etc, coming out with relevant music expressing new ideas about blackness and the times
But, I think there was no music that captured the unbeleivably huge emotion, anger, exaultation at declaring freedom and power of what was happening with black people back then, than Avante Guarde black jazz music , for example. Pharoh with Trane (Im a bigger fan of Trane and Miles before they went avante guarde and funky , Miles did both, there work before that is something that drives me today, i keep going back and back , studying it , practicing with it, it is the long lasting treasure)..I actualy had a lot of experiance playing avante guarde with some of chicagos best, and sonny sharrock in New York, but,I understand the diologue and principals involved, but, the Afro diasporic beats and dances are the things that i keep going to for the deepest fullfillment for me personaly
And, yes, avante guarde jazz is hard to listen to
but, what is perplexing is, the black nationalists didnt give the avante guarde black jazz artists more recognition, they were going on at the same time ,and the avante guarde jazz musicians captured that mood better than anyone…people like Pharroh Sanders, who you did a peice on…
I just think it was a political movement, and i beleive a cultural black movement, emphasising new things and recuing and studying the past, would be a powerful next step
I know some black nationalists were into jazz back then, especialy in new York, but it was absolutly absent from the Black nationalist Political diologue or recognition on a more fundimental leval, than instead a few knowledgable people in the movement…i wonder what you take is on that?
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Let us go with that. Let us say that black men hold non-black women do a different standard.
Black men need to be checked on that. By who, who knows. I don’t defend that.
It is true more than it is not. Play dumb all you want.
Men & women are different, and held to different value systems.
When men lose out, no one bats an eye.
When women are benefit, no one bats an eye.
Switch these two scenario, we are OUTRAGED.
I know, I have to play the Game. And I will. F–k honesty, character & virtue.
I acknowledge that their are great black women & American Women out there.
I have made the argument, that these women are fine. But @sharina with no real rebuttal, tells us different.
And I do.
It also takes work to be a male wh0re. For women they just have to open their legs, and a man somewhere will put something in there.
But black women are upset when a black men dates & marries out. Whatever.
LOL. What-ever.
………………………………………………….
Some generalization are BS. Some generalizations have merit.
Obviously, white supremacists have agendas, so they should be not taken seriously.
Strong social skills
Financially sound
Have decent to great sex skills
Masculine
Lean & muscular, broad shoulders, tight hips.
I am glad you admit that BW do what to be like WW.
Smart BW call it out. LOUD minority
And black feminist want to identify with white feminists.
You are in denial
Again, Black women have preferences, and sometimes black men get rejected, so if I don’t agree with that there is not enough black men to go around.
But there are not enough ATTRACTIVE BLACK MEN TO GO AROUND.
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Last comment to @EbonyMonroe
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@Bulanik,
Oh yeah, I’m just burdening you with inferred meaning, eh? So let’s look at what you wrote again:
““Blaming the victims rape, whether the victim is male or female, men can prevent that happening. They can not rape. Simple.”
What men can prevent that from happening? The majority are already not raping anybody so they don’t need to be told not to rape and the ones who are rapists have, by definition, already raped so they aren’t preventing anything so……. simple!!, right?
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@ Adonis
I took the liberty of including your answers as well as my previous answers to make for an easier experience, that would account for the length. You continue to spew huge accusations about BW that have so many statistical and social angles, that it is extremely difficult to respond with convenient compact answers. That is why I do not get into these debates if the person engaging is irrational and purely emotional, because it’s not worth debating opinion, if we are just ignoring facts. One could argue that the world is flat, but no matter how much I dispute that with legitimate facts, if one is determined to hold their opinion, there is no point. That is not a debate, it’s an argument.
Black women engineer their misfortune as children and as women? The same could be said for BM, but I can’t, because I know there are so many variables, and cycles of oppressive social constructs that lead to the state of the Black community as a whole. I’m not able to blame BM for their oppressions, but I’m not able to blame BW for theirs either. That is the difference, here.
You have no ground using the “BW choose thugs argument,” which your entire argument seems to rest on. Only 30% of AA single parent homes are the product of a BW and a “thug,” the other 40-42% are not.
You put 0-18 year old Black female rape victims down to choices; between birth and at least 16, you’re a child. It is generally called pedophilia. And, as I’ve said, roughly 75-85% of rape victims know their attackers, as family members, close family friends, and close neighbors, so once again, your idea of it being about CHOICES is completely unfounded.
You cannot have an intelligent conversation on this because you are delusional with your hatred of BW. By the way, even though 60% of Black women are raped or sexually abused from 0-18 in the US, a huge percentage of rape victims do not report their crimes due to the fear not being believed, and out of fear of humiliation. Meaning, as many as 80% of Black girls could be the victims of rape or sexual assault in the US. That is a huge number. If 50% of BW are born under the poverty line, and 70-72% grow up without a father at home to present a male role model for future reference on what a husband and father should be, and if 60% are the victims of rape before they’re adults, and if they’re packing prison for non violent crimes, (usually for being found carrying drugs for family members), then yes, they are at a great disadvantage and are just as much victimised and disadvantaged as BM are.
I’m sorry, but dudes like you live by the assumption that all BW collectively step over good BM to be with bad BM, but you have no proof for this, the statistics don’t back you, you don’t know every American BW to say this. Your argument is made up of thin air. I believe at this point, that men who feel this way are just bitter over not being chosen by BW. It could be that one is physically unattractive, emotionally unbalanced, unintelligent, irrational, not sexy, bad in bed, and lacks basic social skills, charisma, and good humor. The men who seem to allude to being good BM always seem to be the nastiest. No one wants a scorned man or woman. “The good guy thing” is just a label that passive aggressive men seem to use. But, as I said, the self professed “good guys” always seem to be the worst.
Please save yourself the time of responding to my posts, as I’m not interested. It is impossible having a rational debate with you when you have no way of seeing things with a rational mind. Don’t waste your time.
@ Soulsearch
I agree, the double minority aspect is not taken into account. But, at this point, in my opinion, I honestly think it would be worse. But that’s just my position.
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@ Adonis
“But @sharina with no real rebuttal, tells us different.”—By all means quote where I am telling anyone in here something about all black men? Oh that’s right…your debate style is assumptions and make up imaginary lives for people. ROFL
But it is nice you have an obsession with mentioning my name. So sweet so obsessive. 🙂
So much to say for someone who has been avoiding addressing the opinions you want to pass as facts. Anyway moving on. 🙂
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Adonis,
“You make it seem like as if we are overlooking great black women for good non-black women.
And you keep overlooking, the fact that BLACK WOMEN HAVE PREFERENCES TOO. Some black men do not get chose!”
No, I’m pointing out the fact that in effort to defend black men’s higher percentage of dating out you have stooped to spewing white supremacist ideology.
I couldn’t careless who black men overlook. If black men decided they all wanted to marry each other I wouldn’t care.
You make it seem like less black women date out because they are so far beneath other races of people and are only fit for black men. That more black men have tamed their savage Negro ways are fit for the outside world.
“Who runs this black male patriarchy, @solesearch?”
black men
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@ Ebonymonroe
THANK YOU!!!
Especially in this:
“I believe at this point, that men who feel this way are just bitter over not being chosen by BW. It could be that one is physically unattractive, emotionally unbalanced, unintelligent, irrational, not sexy, bad in bed, and lacks basic social skills, charisma, and good humor. The men who seem to allude to being good BM always seem to be the nastiest. No one wants a scorned man or woman. “The good guy thing” is just a label that passive aggressive men seem to use. But, as I said, the self professed “good guys” always seem to be the worst.”
These are the exact things I was thinking but refused to say or even detail on. I will detail my feelings upon my return home but you said a mouth full here. 🙂
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@SoleSearch
Only if it fits, you white males have an agenda. And that is there thing.
I am highlighting the context of why BM might choose non-BW.
You are not receptive to it regardless of how nice BM put it. Because it is not in your best interest to.
Which KILLS THE “LOYALTY” ARGUMENT.
Or they just desire BM, which is NOT loyalty. Maybe dumb tho.
Funniest sh-t you have said all day.
Lol.
What the hell is black male patriarchy? Please define it for us.
Also, I would love to know what black men HAVE, that black women don’t?
What can black men DO, that black women can’t (privilege)?
Please enlighten us.
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@EbonyMonroe
You engaged me, you just ran into a corner, and now you are ready to tap out. Good to know.
I believe that there are more than enough MEN IN THE WORLD that would happily give an America Black woman a long-term commitment, and a ring.
But as you cited a study, black women would rather not be. Good for them. It still does not absolve them from making pore choice in men PERIOD.
My issue is twofold.
Is he willing to commit to raising his children?
If an emergency comes up, that is different.
But we are talking about choosing men who are into you & the children you create.
If you choose men who think of you as a Jumpoff, sl-t, that is a YOU problem.
How about just get married to men who are “loyal” to you. If that is too hard to do, then be a baby momma, be a wench. Do what makes you happy. You will always encounter criticism.
The financial hardships black men go through play into that.
The mating habits of black women play into that.
Y’all should date each other.
Choose better men PERIOD. Or stop complaining. Be someone’s wife for a change.
Black women support the BM they like or their family members.
Challenging white supremacy take more effort, strategy, planning.
And black men are to blame for black women being fat.
However, when black women complain about NOT being chose, I have to remind black women about what you choose not to do, like LOSE weight.
Hispanic women are not my problem, yet.
Black men being fat is not really an issue, like it is for black women.
If this is true, I have not encountered this.
You mean the single mothers who mate with men who are not in the position to take care for them. Sorry. Black children are better off in the system.
Choose better men.
Black women are not even making it down the altar like that. Lol
I think it is because Black men not having their finances together. Simple.
A lot of you are difficult to deal with. I see you are in denial about this.
Black men & black women are held to different standards. Get over it.
And the same could be said on the BM side, about BW.
From the hoodrats to the Bed Wenches.
They work hand in hand with white supremacy.
………………………………………………………
I know black women better than they know themselves.
And you better be sure that BW don’t put BM in any contextual framework.
You are the lone BW That did.
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@Ebonymore,
“By the way, even though 60% of Black women are raped or sexually abused from 0-18 in the US, a huge percentage of rape victims do not report their crimes due to the fear not being believed, and out of fear of humiliation. Meaning, as many as 80% of Black girls could be the victims of rape or sexual assault in the US. That is a huge number.”
Yes it is. It’s an almost “Color Purplish” claim. I can almost picture Mister and Celie. So who is doing all this raping and sexual assault? Spell it out.
“I’m sorry, but dudes like you live by the assumption that all BW collectively step over good BM to be with bad BM, but you have no proof for this, the statistics don’t back you, you don’t know every American BW to say this. Your argument is made up of thin air. I believe at this point, that men who feel this way are just bitter over not being chosen by BW. It could be that one is physically unattractive, emotionally unbalanced, unintelligent, irrational, not sexy, bad in bed, and lacks basic social skills, charisma, and good humor. The men who seem to allude to being good BM always seem to be the nastiest. No one wants a scorned man or woman. “The good guy thing” is just a label that passive aggressive men seem to use. But, as I said, the self professed “good guys” always seem to be the worst.”
Ha! You’re just engaging in the same rude stereotypes that he is and neither are true.
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@EbonyMonroe
Those men need to be checked. Simple as that
We do not CARE where UGLY BLACK WOMEN go.
I know you want to make deeper than what it is, but it is not that deep @EbonyMonroe.
If you are good at pattern recognition & look for the common thread, I am sure, we can find the reasons why that is.
But these Black males need to get over themselves.
And those BM need to get over themselves.
Not an issue.
When we get there, we will deal.
When we get there, we will deal.
How about do some effing research & be accurate.
I only look at white men for the positive things they do, so I can grow financially, romantically, etc.
I also, watch out for any white men who might want to come for my neck.
Other than that, I have no idea where you are going with that.
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@ Adonis
Oh Adonis, Adonis, you’re filled with madness. I’ve got a few things to do, so I’ll have to get back to this tomorrow. I was gonna start blanking your posts, but spotted your responses, which are quite funny and entertaining, so I’m gonna have to respond. It is difficult not responding with stupid answers because your replies are so founded on emotion and not fact. I remember “Satanforce” once saying he believes that because BM are ignored by BW when they bring up their legitimate concerns, many BM begin acting in a dysfunctional manner to provoke a reaction from BW, to be heard. I’m wondering if that’s what you have been doing, but I have a feeling that you really see the Black community as very monolithic, as your posts suggest; where BW are raging with no direction and high sex drives, and the 30% of BM thugs, rule and reign. That’s simply not true.
And, no, I don’t see BW as victims, I think BOTH BW & BM often have extraordinary hurdles to deal with, but I see many of us as valiant. You’re gonna have to understand that although race is a big issue in the UK, it is also very much a society driven by class. So growing up in the projects, there were many non BW & non BM I saw dealing with the same issues that plague the AA community in the US. This is why you will not be able to get me to see past the poverty aspect. In the UK, “Chav” is our version of your word, “hoodrat.” The WW with multiple kids out of wedlock, by multiple men, without education, a nasty attitude, and a tacky dress sense, is the face of the Chav. So it is impossible for me to see things past the social constructs and just attribute it to race, when my own surroundings and British culture strongly contradict that.
I’ll continue answering your audition to be a stand up comedian tomorrow.
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Man Adonis, you are out there! Lol. But at least you’re honest with your feelings/opinions though c’mon now, there are a lot of great Black Woman around.
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@KS
I AM IN TOTALLY AGREEMENT WITH YOU BRO.
And I will be sampling a lot of these great black women, since according to @Sharina, nobody is checking for them.
I am not in denial.
Right or wrong, I have to defend BM who date out all day long.
And THIS STUPID NOTION that black women are loyal.
Black women have no choice but to be more honest. Denial is not an option anymore.
Also, there is an expectation by all groups of people (BW included) in America to want BM to get it together (despite the obstacles BM face)
But not too together (Barack Obama, or a Floyd Mayweather)
So, while I acknowledge BW’s PLIGHT, THE SAME WAY @EbonyMonroe acknowledges BM PLIGHT.
We are going to have to be honest about the shortcomings of BW, and work it from there.
Very politically incorrect of me to do so.
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Adonis,
“I am highlighting the context of why BM might choose non-BW.”
The only people who believe in that context are racists. You make white supremacist ideology your thing when it suits you.
“You are not receptive to it regardless of how nice BM put it. Because it is not in your best interest to.”
I can pick up on racism regardless of how nicely it is put or who is putting it.
“Or they just desire BM, which is NOT loyalty. Maybe dumb tho.”
That’s it. There is no “or” to it.
“Funniest sh-t you have said all day.”
If it is funny, then you and sondis are the comedians. It’s what you have been implying up and down this post.
“What the hell is black male patriarchy? Please define it for us.
Also, I would love to know what black men HAVE, that black women don’t?
What can black men DO, that black women can’t (privilege)?
Please enlighten us.”
It is the same as any form of patriarchy.
From wikipedia:
Patriarchy is a social system in which males are the primary authority figures central to social organization, occupying roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage.
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@Adonis
I said from my experience but keep making it up…the desperation, assumptions, and deflections are telling. 🙂
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On second thoughts, I’m gonna leave this convo alone, I’m presenting facts you’re talking emotion, you’re telling me to do my research but your posts are filled with opinion. If you scroll up, you will see that you initially engaged ME. I’m backing out because you’re not presenting anything that is worthy and credible to debate with.
@ks
Yes, the 80% sounds too large, that is why I have avoided that number which I came across a long time ago. They added the thought amount not reported with the amount reported. But it’s such a huge estimate that it’s not realistic.
To answer your question, statistically speaking, a small group of sexual predators prey on many victims throughout their time. So it is usually a minority hurting many. NO! I’m not saying many, most, or all BM fit this at all. Don’t worry, I would never think or say that. White men committ more sexual crimes than BM. But the communal constructs of disadvantage, (poverty, single mother-dom) often set the scene for more vulnerability.
And yes, when I say a certain kind of “nice guy” online, seems to be the worst, it is my experience. I’m talking about good guys, I’m speaking on nutcases who bash BW, blame thugs, and use their “good guy” label to imply that they should be selected. All the while, saying some of the most vile and hateful things. That is not a good guy, that’s a nutcase you is just probably sexually frustrated.
Let me wrap this up on topic. I understand why people groups feel discomfort when their opposite gender goes out to marry to the point where there are not enough left, especially when there is complicated history added to the plate. But, I personally think you should open up your choices and not rely on one group of people. People are people. I think most will find that if they don’t depend on one group they will not deal with so much hurt or resentment over putting so much pressure on one group. Life is far too short for that. I think, if you have good qualities and surround yourself with good people and good environments, you’ll find you have too many options to complain. Be happy.
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@solesearch
1. You could not speak from experience, you had to go to Wikipedia. Which is fine, it brings me to my next point.
2. WTF to black men own or control. Because a lot of you women envy the patriarchal benefits WHITE WOMEN GETS.
Beauty & protection.
If there was a truly patriarchal structure in the black community. Black women would be the sole beneficiaries to it. And your quality of live would be better.
Stop trying to be like the white women so bad, and support the black men who give a rip.
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@EbonyMonroe
We see you tapping out. We are hip. Thanks for playing
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@ebonymonroe
@ Adonis
Understood
I mostly debate accurate generalizations. With personal account, other personal accounts, blog articles, cross referencing, OUT OF BLACK WOMEN’s OWN MOUTHS. And actions.
When you don’t get married to capable men, YES.
When you have children before you are ready? YES
Most black men own it, and suffer in silence. And it is still not socially acceptable for BM to air out their grievances. They have to just grin & bear it.
I get it. And for the most part, you hold black men & women to the same victim standard.
I hold black men & women to the same personal responsibility standard.
Both work. The problem is when you use one standard for one group, and another standard for the other group.
Fine.
Actually, YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.
You are more familiar with the term THUG, which I don’t like, because I actually hang out with a lot of these dudes, and their are a lot of “GOOD MEN” fall into the THUG category.
I have a problem with men who willfully do not take care of their children, financially or are present.
Irresponsible men.
Educated, uneducated.
Mommy issues. daddy issues
Rich or poor (tho mostly impoverish)
Charismatic or lame.
Masculine or feminine
Straight or bi-sexual
Criminals or law-abiding citizens
If these men do not take care of their children, then they are a piece of sh-t.
(The exception to the rule is, if HE PICKED THE WRONG WOMAN TO MATE WITH & THEN SHE IS LEVERAGING THE WHITE POWERED COURT SYSTEM to keep him away from the child, then I am compassionate to his situation, but he made a wrong move somewhere.)
It is HARD TO HOLD THESE MEN TO THEIR RESPONSIBILITY, if black women are willing opening their legs for them. And women like you are complaining to be AFTER THE CHILD IS BORN.
You straw manned my argument to put the pressure on men who are more like me who might be getting black women pregnant outside of marriage.
You mean the parents & the babyfathers that they choose to procreate with. Huh?
This is true. So what do you do?
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Well, they have to speak up. If they do not, they have their reasons. Oh well.
I agree.
Really? You just admitted, black women ain’t trying to get married like that. And they want to date whomever gets them wet.
So, if these BW end up in a dark place. I could careless. Choices baby. Choices
And then BW turn around AND GET MAD when these men decide to check for Non-BW
And then try to pee on my leg & tell me it is raining about LOYALTY. LMAO.
And then you turn around and ask these same men to support BWs causes. WHY? WHY?
Chicken & egg argument.
You ignore & reject these men and expect them to be happy about it. LOL!!!
And expect love & support from these men.
And talk crazy about LOYALTY to these men.
And then, get mad when these men decide that non-BW are a better option.
@EbonyMonroe you see how crazy, you, @Peanut & @Sharina sound.
It is what it is. But these men take away the victim narrative Black women like to run with, when the IR dating conversations come up.
We just disagree, so I am irrational. Get over yourself.
1. Black women benefit on being BLACK & a WOMAN. I believe @Sondis & @Alicia highlighted this. Black women like to focus on how they are losing, but conveniently overlook how they are winning, fair or unfair.
2. You & other black women (some are Bed Wench) are very comfortable with white men running things, and you know that black men assuming power, would limit black female freedom in some capacity.
Also, the black feminist movement & Bed wench cannot THRIVE without White Supremacy & weak black male leadership.
If we are being honest.
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Adonis
If you have something to say to me then address me but people in here can read so your continued need to put words in my mouth and talk about me but not to me tells me three things.
1. You are shook. People who are confident in their stance don’t need to continue to try to make side jabs at people they claim to have “gotten.” They will either address them or not. They also don’t put false claims in their mouth.
2. You are desperate. Attempting to paint me as one thing won’t change the main things. Which is you don’t know the majority to speak for.
3. Attention. Post speak for themselves.
I vote all three but then again that is simply me. 🙂
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Now if you have nothing left that you feel confident in saying to me rather than about me, then I will take my leave. Grown man drama is only so funny for so long.
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@sharina
I did not make implications. No subliminals.
Get over yourself, and the beat goes on.
If I had more time, I would continue to break down your BS.
I’ll let time & experience do that for me.
Your welcome
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@ EbonyMonroe
Continued
““I believe at this point, that men who feel this way are just bitter over not being chosen by BW. It could be that one is physically unattractive, emotionally unbalanced, unintelligent, irrational, not sexy, bad in bed, and lacks basic social skills, charisma, and good humor. The men who seem to allude to being good BM always seem to be the nastiest. No one wants a scorned man or woman. “The good guy thing” is just a label that passive aggressive men seem to use. But, as I said, the self professed “good guys” always seem to be the worst.”
I call it wolf in sheep’s clothing. There are certain men who put up the presentation of being good guys but are emotionally unbalanced and irrational. I used to watch this tv show stalked and I was completely shocked to discover that these men were just that. Carrying the label of a good guy and really just being not all there. Thus leading them to being stalkers and in some case killing their victims., but online what struck me is many of the supposed “good guys” were individuals who had the most negative outlook ever on black women. I first ran across this when the topic came up in another post in which it was brought to my attention on black women hate groups and youtubers. At first I was not a believer of such, but once it was displayed to me I became aware. Most if not all of them sounded nothing more than bitter. The level of anger and hatred on some of their boards was overwhelming. I just watched and never commented but they were no different from the white men they claimed to hate.
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@ Adonis
Adonis, you are being irrational because you’re not coming with facts. You keep countering my presentations of statistics and social science theory that make up the situations relating to BW, that aggravate you, by bringing up random prejudiced opinions from BW you’ve encountered from your own limited experiences. There is not much room to debate on such a narrow foundation.
I will try to answer your posts tomorrow.
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“Adonis
@sharina
I did not make implications. No subliminals.
Get over yourself, and the beat goes on.
If I had more time, I would continue to break down your BS.
I’ll let time & experience do that for me.
Your welcome”
LMFAO! You broke Sharina’s BS down to her very last compound
see how it sound?
a little irrational
a lot of mc’s like to use the word
DRAMATICAL!
Fresh for ’88
you suckas… @ > : o O ) >
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@ Adonis
So my name keeps appearing in post not to me (with your idea of what you think I said) because of what?
“Get over yourself, and the beat goes on.”—It is you who keeps bringing up my name so the question is who really needs to get over something???
“If I had more time, I would continue to break down your BS.”—If you haven’t broken it down by now with your essay for responses then I doubt you can or ever will. 🙂
“I’ll let time & experience do that for me.”—I wager you will die of bitterness before that happens.
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@ sondis
ROFL speaking of desperate and delusional people.
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@ Sharina
This is exactly what I’ve noticed. I kind of assume it comes from sexual frustration, or being scorned from having bad luck with women. A lot of it (in my opinion) comes from men who have anger and control issues that will drive women away, but they’ll blame women leaving on the assertiveness that has grown in modern W/BW, due to feminism. Not understanding that they just need to heal and learn how to relate to women. If I’m being honest, a lot of the conversations I’ve had with BM we’re describing seems come from resentment over their father leaving and their mom picking their dad in the first place. The disdain for absentee BM fathers panic over BW making the same mistakes their Mother did. But, sadly, if there is even a salt grain of validity to anything presented, it can’t/won’t translate through the hatred that frames it.
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@ebonymonroe
I am highly entertained. That is why I keep going.
Listen to the great philosopher Christopher Wallace
“Stay far from timid
Only make moves when ya heart’s in it
And live the phrase Sky’s The Limit
Motherf-cker… see you chumps on top”
Sky’s The Limit
Goodnight.
I cannot wait for tonight’s Scandal episode.
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it’s nice going outside sometimes
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Adonis:
“I cannot wait for tonight’s Scandal episode.”
umm, you mean ABC’s “White man’s Negro bed wench” that Scandal?
I can’t stand that garbage of a show that has white supremacy written all over it.
The sad part is, EVERY woman on this blog and the majority of black women in America, defends that horrible dynamic, where a black woman is a white man’s Negro bed wench and they make every excuse in the book to justify watching a show that degrades all black women as depicts them as worshiping and lusting for the white man!
“He loves her” they say the white man says to the black woman. So does every other white man, that sees her an a negro bed wench.
It goes to show, black women that watch and support this type of show, that depict them as incapable of having a healthy relationship with a black man and prefers to be a white man’s whore, over a relationship with a intelligent and rich black congressmen, are thirsty for a black woman in any sense on TV, it also affirms that black women are just as caught up in white supremacy as black men.
I refuse to watch any show on white TV, that depicts black men or women in subservient or worshiping role to a white man or woman.
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@ Ebonymonroe
That is very true. I have a black male friend like that, but the difference is he does have a present father and mother. It still boggles me why he has the hang ups when it comes to black women. The odd thing most of all is always that he has a girlfriend. He is never single.
Still I just do not get at all where in heck his anger issues stems from, but when he is in that rut he is scary.
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@Sharina
See. Black women be on that BS.
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@Sharina
See. Black women be on that BS. I salute that brother.
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I agree with all of that. And the racial implications are clear.
It would not be popular if the President was Black & the mistress was white. We get it. I get it.
But don’t let NBW consume your mind.
Good day
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Adonis,
“1. You could not speak from experience, you had to go to Wikipedia. Which is fine, it brings me to my next point.”
You asked what it was so I provided a definition.
“2. WTF to black men own or control. Because a lot of you women envy the patriarchal benefits WHITE WOMEN GETS.”
Any and all black institutions. The black church, the civil rights movement, and other political organizations in black communities. Black men have power. They don’t have much so the inability to rule their women as white men do manifests as misogyny and other destructive behaviors.
Beauty & protection.
“If there was a truly patriarchal structure in the black community. Black women would be the sole beneficiaries to it. And your quality of live would be better.”
Most black women are Christian. Submission to your husband is taught in most black churches and most black women believe in it to various degree. I don’t view patriarchy as beneficial.
I don’t see how submission to someone else benefits me. Would black people benefit if we submitted to white people?
“Stop trying to be like the white women so bad, and support the black men who give a rip.
”
I do support black men who give a rip. I support anyone who gives a rip. However, imitating the oppressive and misogynistic behavior of white society isn’t going to help black folks. It only holds us back. We need all of our people working towards their full potential.
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“Adonis:
But don’t let NBW consume your mind.”
NBW?
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HELP
BLACK WOMEN AND MEN:
I need your help.
I have a few white men around me who want all black women to be alone and shunned, how can I deal with this? I need my job but am sick of the attitudes from them that not only should we be single but feel like crap?
How can I get them to stop the bull. Even as most black women are coupled up in other teams around us, they are doing this. They don’t want me to be able to normally talk to black co-workers, heck I’m not even supposed to be friendly with the Asian ones.
These are the same ones whom act homosexual with black men, can I get them to stop with putting it on me that I should feel like crap, that black women are all single and that the black male members should shun the black female ones?
I need advice!
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“Alicia
HELP
BLACK WOMEN AND MEN:
I need your help.
I have a few white men around me who want all black women to be alone and shunned, how can I deal with this? I need my job but am sick of the attitudes from them that not only should we be single but feel like crap?
How can I get them to stop the bull. Even as most black women are coupled up in other teams around us, they are doing this. They don’t want me to be able to normally talk to black co-workers, heck I’m not even supposed to be friendly with the Asian ones.
These are the same ones whom act homosexual with black men, can I get them to stop with putting it on me that I should feel like crap, that black women are all single and that the black male members should shun the black female ones?
I need advice!”
Why can’t it be, these white men are just racist? why does it have to be all about them, wanting you to be single? Talk about reading too much into something and being a drama queen, sheesh!
Let me make this real clear for you and simplify things, its racism and nothing more. How to deal with racist white people, you ask?
Ignore the majority of these and the ones you can’t ignore, i.e your boss or supervisor or any white person that’s over you on your job, which is 99.9999% of the time in America.
You document EVERY single thing they say and tell you to do, so you have a paper trail, when you open a complaint with the EEOC over racial discrimination . It seems that these white men are causing a hostile work environment for you, that is grounds for opening a complaint.
there goes your advice, that will be, 19.99 please! Normally my fee is 29.99 but you get a discount. ^_^
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http://books.google.com.br/books?id=bMaRoLzuRwgC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=race+mixing+black+white+marriage+in+postwar+america+black+nationalism&source=bl&ots=A6qCJ0snK2&sig=FeDFhmaX98kG-qBhB0B-1b0LfNg&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=NHtgUoS_HIeO4gTYpYH4Cw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=race%20mixing%20black%20white%20marriage%20in%20postwar%20america%20black%20nationalism&f=false
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“The sad part is, EVERY woman on this blog and the majority of black women in America, defends that horrible dynamic, where a black woman is a white man’s Negro bed wench and they make every excuse in the book to justify watching a show that degrades all black women as depicts them as worshiping and lusting for the white man!”
__ __ __
“NBW” = Negro Bed Wench
“But dont let it consume your mind”~ Adonis
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Abagond , you want the real deal , its in that book (even a referance to Malcolm) , so much of the agenda came from the dormatory (campus)
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http://books.google.com.br/books?id=bMaRoLzuRwgC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=race+mixing+black+white+marriage+in+postwar+america+black+nationalism&source=bl&ots=A6qCJ0snK2&sig=FeDFhmaX98kG-qBhB0B-1b0LfNg&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=NHtgUoS_HIeO4gTYpYH4Cw&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=race%20mixing%20black%20white%20marriage%20in%20postwar%20america%20black%20nationalism&f=false
very important to go to page 225 and start reading from there
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“The sad part is, EVERY woman on this blog and the majority of black women in America, defends that horrible dynamic [….]”
__ __ __
1.) “Every woman on this blog … defends that horrible dynamic [….]
2.) “[…] the majority of black women in America, defends that horrible dynamic[…]
That’s two “outright lies” in one sentence.
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@Sondis.
In their racism, they are dividing up black men vs black women and it’s a constant thing there they try to get the few black males to shun the black females and approach us and treat us as if they want us to walk around feeling like crap, be jealous of and not be able to be friendly with the other minority members of the team, especially the asian and other females and especially want to come at us as if we are un-wanted. It’s the same with how black men are dealt with where they act homo to the Black males on the team.
I know it’s racism but they come with a certain angle. It’s like you know racism is behind job discrimination but you want to tackle the actions.
Any advice?
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@adonis wtf you know about getting raped
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879 Responses as of friday october 18 2013
how much ya wanna bet it will pass a thousand;-/
guess I got a lot of reading to do,
some regular commentators complained about yet another post of this issue by abagond; I disagree this is a relevant though unpleasant issue that needs to be discussed.
And look at its popularity ,that ought say something in and of its self.
(in fact if anyone decides to ruthlessly increase their blog traffic ,guess what topic would attract a lot of eyeballs,comments and traffic??)
Anyway thus far in my reading of this topic ,there are several issues related which I have yet to see addressed, namely aesthetic inferiority vs superiority
and the phenotypic similarity of northern asians to northern europeans.
These factors are interrelated,perhaps because of the latitude range of pigmentation and decreases of pigmentation i.e. albinism vs melenination ,white skin vs black skin.
And how albinic skin,the human/sapien epidermis is aesthetically less attractive/beautiful compared to meleniated epidermises.
Otherwise how do we explain esp amongst europeans the pyschological defense mechanism against meleneniated sapiens i.e. black and brown populations at the same time dressing in black for thier most important civic and sexual events,suntaning even when at risk of skin cancer,etc…
Age also being a factor as well.
And how our particular species responds to this phenomena psychologically and sociologically.
Obviously I’ll be saying a lot more in the future,like I said this baby’s definitely going past a thousand comments.
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i guess i see something new like you don’t see some separated white chick go on the view and start talkin about white dudes do this or don’t do that
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no one have any advice for me?
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Hi Sondis,
Even though several of the White guys on my team act homosexual with the black guys, they don’t do anything either? What about showing discomfort? Why just allow the the white men to focus on their genitals like that? Is it because of you like said, racism is racism? and they will always do these things in showing their racism? Personally, I’m like day in and day out I could not be dealing with someone acting gay with me or acting like they wish I was gay. It would freak me out but I know plenty of men deal with this in corporate America? As a black woman, I find it insulting for some white men to constantly come at black with with this “you are un-attractive and even your men don’t want you” attitude. It is weird and so insulting. I could not imagine Black men ever doing that to White Women.
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@V8driver
Shut your mouth when you speak to me young boy.
You don’t know WTF I know and/or have experiencedz
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Adonis, any advice? Why do white men do this? I could never imagine Black men trying to get White women to feel unwanted or trying to get white women to be shunned by the men of their race. Even at my age, this is still baffling to me.
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us that fight dont get between us you know we be back together two weeks later anyway
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@alicia
I got you at 11:05PM.
And we should be on the Open Thread about this
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Alicia , in hiarcial office games, there are the straight up racists , and, then , the people that will play you if they think implied racism will bother you …or, they are playing you, and you think its racism…
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What do you mean?
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@ Alicia
I will respond to you in the Open Thread
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I dont get “recent comments” on my computor, so I just come here..
Well. Alicia , you have to ask yourself are they straight up racists,just doing it out of hate for black people, or are they trying to throw people off guard to get the advantage in daily office hiarchy…
I really dont have enough info , but, maybe their pea brains think “act like gay men around black men to throw them off guard, and try to undermine the confidence of the black women..” . Do they run any other games on other office mmembers?
Thowing people off guard to push and get the upper hand is a tactic used, sometimes blatently bafoonish…I remeber being in the american consulate , and overhearing an American guy come in with a Brazilian women thinking he was going to get her on a flight that night and get around the beaurocracy.
He comes in to the main guy at the consulate, gives him a phony salesman’s hello and then makes a remark about the consulate guys bald spot…actualy thinking he was going to throw him off guard and get him to let this girl go on the plane that night…you could see how blatently bad this ploy was and then the consulate guy have the satisfation of saying no , after this guy gave a really sales slick speal
You juat have to see through these people’s tactic and at the very least when they try to make you feel uncomfortable, instead of getting flustered, you say in your head ” yeah , right, my @ss, I see through your bs” and stay focused and at least be less stressed, you can almost laugh at their gay guy poses around the black guys, if you see through how pathetic it is…
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The information, I brought in, if you start at page 25, it is pretty frank about the scenario back then and the dynamic going on about preasures on black people iin the student movements to not have interracial relationships
I especialy see it as a student university oriented political agenda, the kind chewed over in studies classes, meetings and dorm philisophical conversations, coming up with ideologues and mandates that dont play out on the ground, and actualy cause great conflict
Its very teling when you read that a guy fron Core, who was asked by Malcolm of his relationship with a white girl, he promtly told Malcolm that he paid his dues and had been beat in protests and did time in jail , and Malcolm sent them some kind of lavander glasses , or , something as a present…
These political agendas of anti interracial relations with white people , seem hammered out on campus , and used as rules for black people to cluster together on campus and abide by them (you can read this in that paper, it isnt my opinion)
Is it possible that these univerity students went on to graduate and become the black middle class , and these issues are mainly passed down until now in the black American diologue, causing huge conflicts and devisions..
It doesnt matter if a person is anti racist, the black men and women issues are at great odds because of theyoke of these political agendas that are flawed, that all can be traced back to the late 60’s, mostly played out intellectualy on college campuses
if only black women and men could lift that yoke off, look each other in the eyes and forgive each other for the hurt these political agendas forced them to take sides against each other
and see the yoke for what it is and see each other in the true light they are meant to be seen in
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There’s waay too many posts to respond to, I’ll have to get at them in tomorrow or something
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Shady_Grady said:
>Yes, many of the people , regardless of race, who are po’d about IR relationships or >anybody being in a relationship are IMO just bitter because they themselves are not i>n one and want to be (not necessarily an IRR but ANY good relationship).
ya think?
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Sondis said:
>I barely comment on this blog, every now and again I’ll have free time, this is why i >disappear and reappear on this blog. I do have a life and as such i do tend to it, >being I’m not on it every single day.
this thread got to you, huh?
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@sam thanks for getting back to me, I see you have some rational and appropriate comments.
if by the selection process of my criteria that i look for in a ‘person of romantic interest’ that i strongly prefer and seek african american women to date, being racist, only from a textbook definition of exclusion based on phenotypic characteristics, well i’m just going to have to live with that.
I went through a period where I persued white women. I went through a period where i hung out the shingle and took anything that came down the street under advisement, but i don’t really see how that’s more ‘enlightened’ or ‘progressive’ than sayin, you know what i dig black women.
did i skew the odds, by moving to a black town? did I say oooh there’s lots of black girls in philly on my fb? yes and yes. Is that bad? no.
>If it was: “I like women out of whom most have happened to been black”, then there >might be no racism. But you stated that you like BLACK women. That is the >definition. That is the condition. It was not Nice women, Smart women, Intellectual >women, not even Sexy women, BUT specificly Black women. That is what I meant. >Anyone who chooses his/her companion solely by the color of their skin is a racist.
well thank you for helping me understand, and perhaps this penetrates to the heart of the matter ie why abagond would put this posting up here at this time,
idk, man, i take crap from black people, white people, i have chosen, it’s really not about how anyone else feels, but thank you for talkin to me.
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Sorry, I meant start at page 225…but, this book obviously is a serious referance about interracial relationships in the USA and its history
you could read asnywhere and get insights
I pretty much knew this information, I lived it..that is why I know it, but this book and those papers seriously verify exactly what I am saying about political agendas
which is why I amvery leery of any political agendas coming down the pike, including making words politicaly incorrect instead of really looking at the intent of the users…like in “sub Sahara Africa’ (please dont argue it here , take it to the SSA thread), yeah , chaulk me up as saying it dependes on the intent of the users, havent these political agendas intellectualy formulated in college dorms done enough damage?
Ive seen too much damage done from them to trust just any political agenda
forget my opinion, just look at these threads
Kiwi, you got some great political ideas from the black Civil Rights movement, but your notions about interracial relations and Asian girls, and feeling uncomfortable at seeing a white man with an asian woman from a distance not knowing asnything about them, just judging them, is drinking the bilge water of some of the few flawed political agendas coming from the late 60’s
Id like to hear your total conversations with your relatives and freinds about your hangups with them and their feelings about it…I wonder if you badgered them into having to get defencive with you
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@The Alchemist
HA!
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@adonis
“Men hate dating single moms”
you stupid we all got kids, you belie your proposed demonstration of experience
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Look, V8, we got to lie,we cant just tell people we love and are attracted to black women , we have to hide it and say, “oh no, I like all women, i dont see their color or bone structure, beautiful hair and lips”
Even though people are practicly screaming white men dont want black women, when we say we like black women, we get labled as having j ungle fever, or we have a fetish, or start getting the pseudo psycho analysis by people who never were profesionals of a science i consider bogus and incomplete anyway
we just have to lie…i mean no one wants to acknowledge affinities and attractions and cultural choices…
Interracial couples dont deserve to be held up to anymore scrutiny than any other couples..including for casual mutual consenting sex
“oh, only if its love and its a meaningful relationship..”…cmon, no interracial couple needs to be held up to the kind of scritiny other couples dont have to deal with
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ahhh michelle rodriguez is hot, but i hear she don’t like men, idk
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the outside world calls, to be continued… wow this is pretty heavy stuff
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“no one” (actualy, Matari, you made a statement I agree with)
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Damn Sharina. Still with the endless ad hominem attacks I see.
LOL @ the idea that white males want to keep black men and black women apart. WTF? If that conspiracy theory were true then these discussions would have taken place closer to emancipation than today.
The reality is that white men don’t discuss black women very much at all. Usually when a white male dates a black female the female is exceptionally beautiful/sweet/talented. Most people run in social circles primarily populated by their own race.
Lol@ Mbeti’s melanin supermen.
Adonis- when you ride one mile on the train of Marxist victimhood, you gotta ride the whole route. Black men were bound to be unjustly criticized by black feminists due to the latter’s idiotic Marxist perspective.
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@sam and i been said college educated not too fat southern accent and drives a stick even on the truck, a black girl of course, a boy can dream
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i have to have this thread open in like 2 tabs to manage it good stuff.
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The truth is, this is actualy a discusion meant to be had , not with white people…
we shouldnt be on here , except, interracial relationships is my world, but this discusion has turned into black people expressing anger at each other , for being subjected by each other to flawed political agendas, coming out of the campus (for sure not exclusivly) , hammered away on ideologies that didnt play out on the ground ( while many other agendas did great work and really opened the doors for a black middle class to become a reality)
Most people are even saying they agree IRR relationships are cool with them with some peolple in past threads said POC shouldnt be in bed with white people, these attitudes are real, and left over from what can be clearly seen in the link I brought in
especialy starting at page 225
but , clearly lots of people agree that it is ok under circumstances that arnt abusive and racist,but , they are expressing anger at each other…this is because of the false preasures put on each other, from past agendas that were doomed from the start, on both sides…and guarenteed to let each other down
So, under this umbrela, people who have been some of the staunchest anti white racists,who battled and dueled with many of them right here , get dragged through the mud , and other people held up to standards they never wanted anyway
I feel sad to see this, and the white racists know how to exploit this…
the real enemy is white racism…interracial relations doent affect that if it stopped tomorow…yet, look at the energy put into dealing with having false expectations put on each other by each other
Im sorry to be here bringing invery incriminating evidence of the truth of this matter, its not really my intention to be instigating in a discusion among black people…but interracial relations is my world and I know too many black people in my world and who have to be affected by this
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@ Asplund
“Damn Sharina. Still with the endless ad hominem attacks I see.”—-Oh yes and they become 10 fold when people start deflecting from the conversation rather than simply sticking to it. I don’t deal in opinions or cut and dry scenarios. You should have gotten that by now. 🙂
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@ebonymonroe also that one i thought was sole search
“@EbonyMonroe,
Most black men are not making any complaints about Halle Berry or the other celebs whom are dating IR. I have dated IR and in heavily black areas, black men never cared.”
agree
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alicia quote i guess
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@ B. R.
“The truth is, this is actualy a discusion meant to be had , not with white people”—I disagree. It is a discussion that should include white people because there are interracial relationships that involve them as well as interracial relationships that involve Asians.
On top of that I don’t blame you for your preference. People love who they love, but I will say again…you never know where you may find it.
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re: @alicia said i thinkg
“I am aware of the fact that BM spend an incredible larger amount of time in jail for non violent crimes in comparison to White male pedophiles and murderers. I am aware of the race and wage gap that affects BM. I am aware of the judicial, occupational, domestic, and social issues that BM are up against. And I am very proud of them.”
and this is where it separates out you know sondis is all theoretical some white dudes done been locked up and all and understand stuff like that felon even and its true this guy darrell something on my fb did like a couple decades fed time for like a g of crack
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that is one thing about .ca and the uk a lot less time, think gb catchin up for murder yet
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Also Asplund as the saying goes (and sadly must be repeated) people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. People who engage in this are quick to engage in confirmation bias. People who engage in this are also usually quick to make their experiences the universal platform for how things are. People who engage in this make mind reading statements. Which makes their claims a bit illogical don’t you think?
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*60% of BW in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted by age 16-18″
i have heard this a lot from black american females that used drugs to a addiction level
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@v8driver
What is this? You yourself just complained a few posts back of people assuming you’re fetishizing. I never even said BM in general had a problem with BW in interracial relationships, I just said it’s not true that it never happens and listed some experience I or my friends have come across.
@Adonis I have answered your first of many posts in the open thread, it is veering off of being about interracial relationships.
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@ebonymonroe i’m just bein me i have alcohol in my blood at this time
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@v8driver
*60% of BW in the UK have been raped or sexually assaulted by age 16-18″
i have heard this a lot from black american females that used drugs to a addiction level
No, I corrected that, as that is a US statistic. What is your point here? Do you not think perhaps you were hearing it from drug addicts because your circle consisted of drug addicts at the time?
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goin through all this old business this thread is amazingly just worldwide and really a lot to process for anyone
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idk just wonderin if my car gonna make it to philly so i can see miss yvonne it’s my main agenda right now
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@v8driver
You shouldn’t drink and drive, you’ve got a Minnie me on the way.
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@EbonyMonroe
I caught your Open Thread post like a fastball.
I am watching The Boondocks right now. I know you got sh-t to do.
You will have to wait.
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@adonis and @sondis
don’t you think you all are making it a little more difficult for yourselves (individually) than it needs to be? like you are getting in your own way?
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@adonis
I remember when a picture of Bria Miles with her White boyfriend was posted on here, the reaction from a few brothas was “noooooooo, not Bria.”
werent that brotherwolf
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@adonis it is a thing called quotes, in grammar
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@ebonymonroe finally i am up to this one where you responded.
“When I referred to a sense of pride in White, Indian, and Middle Eastern communities, I was not talking about supremacist groups, or pride founded on the concept of the inferiority of other groups, at all. I was referring to a sense of pride in their communities as it relates to, one another, a sense of community.”
idk this is also the heart of the matter. basically in america, ‘white pride’ is sort of excepting yourself to america which is known to be the ‘great melting pot’ and then it is a slippery slope
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@ebonymonroe my mom’s dad was british, im scotch irish and irish too so i am very interested in what you have to say
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ok that’s anough for now wow this is so much stuff here in this thread ttys
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miss yvonne called me i g2g
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Sharina, I apreciate what you are saying, I just feel, when black men and women start putting each other down and blaming each other , I dont want to get in the middle or instigate or take sides , although I have no problem saying you are one of the staunch anti white racism people on here who has battled white racist on here, and dont deserve the attacks you got..
The truth is, at that point, what is happening is, the truth on the ground today is not lining up with the demands these political agendas , coming from both sides , did put on each other…and it is coming apart at the seams
Which happens in flawed political agendas, take the South ceceding from the North, and Jim Crow, KKK etc, faulty political agendas, the real fonte of anti interracial relationships, with hypocracy of woodshed sex , and it has done great damage and comes down into today to haunt us
I had no choice but to bring in these books , and , papers, to prove exactly the origins of the rhetoric and dogma that you have seen directly represented on this blog, in terms of interracial sex
And, I find it perplexing that it was me who had to do it, since my specialty is Afro diasporic culture, that is my profesion and life’s work, and expertise, not the black American political trajectory and Civil Rights movement, yet, of course . as someone who always recognised injustices done to black Americans, and my deep involvement with black Americans, I was always aware and informed of the dynamic
Of course, having many interratioal relationships, the agendas against that was something I was very sensitive to and knew about it and the origins, which are blatently plain as day described in the materials Ive brought in, Ive proved my points in an unrefutable way about agandas against interracial sex in the black political agendas of the late 60’s
and I was aware of the lackof emphasis on black culture, except literature, in the black political diolougue, and the act of some black nationalists to throw black culture under the bus in the name of their particular black political agenda
unfortunatly, some of these flaewed agendas,that dont even represent the majority of black opinion, have somehow gotten stuck in the rhetoric, that is exactly what happens (you see it on the far left and marxist dogma that doesnt play out on the ground at all), and comes down into today and does great damage
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@B.R.
I appreciate your brining it in.
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@ Sharina: You brought up the term confirmation bias, this is an interesting term. Thanks for giving me food for thought. I agree that this toucy subject, does bring about confirmation bias.
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*touchy*
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@ mary burrell
Thanks, but I fear this subject has highlighted a lot more than that. I always suspected things along the lines of men preaching the black unit but not being as into it as the women who start to take it to heart. The damaging effects that come with that are heart breaking but it is an issue in the black community that needs to be looked at much closely than we do.
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@Sharina,
Funny stuff. You’ve spent a good portion of your comments here calling out other folks confirmation bias while defending your own. When you’ve been pushed hard on the latter, you’ve tried to laugh/snark it off and headed back to safe lofty pronouncements.
Speaking of confirmation bias. Oh gosh, you “fear it has highlighted much more than that”? My God! that must be serious what could it be?
Yes, you’ve “always suspected things along the problem of men preaching the black unit but not being as into it as the women who start to take it to heart.” And you go further….“The damaging effects that come with that are heart breaking but it is an issue in the black community that needs to be looked at much closely than we do.”
Uh huh. Those hypocritical, faithless men are the problem while the women are just suffering victims of broken hearts and any subsequent damaging effects in the black community are clearly more the fault of the former rather than the latter who were just innocently led astray by the former. Of course. And, we need to look at that much more closely than we do. Sure we do. Right.
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^And…”A nation can rise no higher than its women”…
Let’s just deconstruct Adonis’ comments about white patriarchy and how its dynamics benefit white women; being “seen” as beautiful (when many of them are in fact average), that is why Sarah Jessica Parker is married, but Jessica White is not; white feminism (which is just a way to keep white resources flowing into the white community via it’s women); protection (persecution of non-white males because white women are an integral part of white dominance because they have to give birth to white children)…
My point? Ignore the ills of the women folk in your community and your community is on its last legs…(after all, they are the ones who give physical birth to future generations).
Abagond, you may delete this if you feel its off topic.
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@ ks
Do highlight this confirmation bias? Where I supposedly claim that all black men or majority are like this and because of the few I guess confirms something to me about all/majority black men. I specifically and have several times said a certain type.
“Uh huh. Those hypocritical, faithless men are the problem while the women are just suffering victims of broken hearts and any subsequent damaging effects in the black community are clearly more the fault of the former rather than the latter who were just innocently led astray by the former.”—Please do us both a favor and avoid the acts of interpreting what you think I meant by my statement. For starter I never said who was at fault. Men nor women.
Secondly stop trying to look for arguments just to have one.
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@phoebeprunelleo
If @Alicia & @EbonyMonroe have enough sense to take their talents to the Open Thread & you are as articulate & thoughtful as you are,
What is your excuse?
See you in the Open Thread
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@KS
THANK YOU.
As soon as the article relevant to @Sharina & I dispute come to mind or I come across it, I will bang her with it.
Right now, I am enjoying the debates with @EbonyMonroe in the Open Thread.
Anything relevant you can bring to the discussion is more than appreciated, even if I am in the wrong.
I am not here to just BE RIGHT, but to GET IT RIGHT.
But you gotta go HARD.
Good Day
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@Adonis
“As soon as the article relevant to @Sharina & I dispute come to mind or I come across it, I will bang her with it.”—Surely it is not that hard to find?
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@Sharina,
“Do highlight this confirmation bias? Where I supposedly claim that all black men or majority are like this and because of the few I guess confirms something to me about all/majority black men. I specifically and have several times said a certain type.”
You are providing a tailored example to suit your argument but missing the mark. Confirmation bias is merely a fancy way to describe the simple tendency people have to favor info that confirms their beliefs. You do realize that you can have confirmation bias about a certain type as well as an overall group, right? Anyway, you certainly have beliefs are have been shading and arguing about them like everybody else here. If you want me to dig out examples of your confirmation bias, particularly from your many amusing exchanges with Adonis and sondis, well that’s not going to happen. That’s way too much to muck through there.
“Please do us both a favor and avoid the acts of interpreting what you think I meant by my statement. For starter I never said who was at fault. Men nor women.”
Hilarious. The meaning of the following is rather plain:
“Thanks, but I fear this subject has highlighted a lot more than that. I always suspected things along the lines of men preaching the black unit but not being as into it as the women who start to take it to heart. The damaging effects that come with that are heart breaking but it is an issue in the black community that needs to be looked at much closely than we do.”
So you never literally said who was at fault as in “I think men are at fault…” but, that’s about the lamest sidestep imaginable when one reads the above. Not only do you clearly ascribe blame , you even claim that the damaging effects that come as a result are community wide.
“Secondly stop trying to look for arguments just to have one.”
No need to get huffy! This doesn’t even qualify as an argument by the standards of this crazy thread.
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@ ks
“You are providing a tailored example to suit your argument but missing the mark.”—That would require that statement be an argument first. I simply stated something that I have observed. Something that has been on my mind to discuss. Oh yes I believe there are men that do this, but I don’t believe all men that preach it do this or even that all men do this, so still not seeing how that is confirmation bias.
” Anyway, you certainly have beliefs are have been shading and arguing about them like everybody else here”—Never denied that I don’t have beliefs, but I don’t harbor my beliefs as facts.
” If you want me to dig out examples of your confirmation bias, particularly from your many amusing exchanges with Adonis and sondis, well that’s not going to happen. That’s way too much to muck through there.”—Nope. wouldn’t want anyone to.
“o you never literally said who was at fault as in “I think men are at fault…” but, that’s about the lamest sidestep imaginable when one reads the above. Not only do you clearly ascribe blame , you even claim that the damaging effects that come as a result are community wide. “—So if I never said who was at fault where am I putting blame on anyone. You clearly have decided I must blame one or the other simply because of your own interpretations. Not mine.
“No need to get huffy! This doesn’t even qualify as an argument by the standards of this crazy thread.”—It does not qualify as a debate, but an argument it does.
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@ Ks
Another thing. I never had issues with people having a belief or an opinion (Neither of which I have to agree with by the way). What I said was those beliefs or opinions are not “Facts.” And I then went on to say what can happen when people start to believe that their opinions are thus facts. So yea I do see this little exchange with you as you making a mountain out a mole hill in one statement I made.
So again I kindly ask. Don’t interpret what I am saying.
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Adonis,
I don’t get what you’re asking?
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@phoebeprunelle can I please protest the notion that Sarah Jessica Parker is considered attractive? From memory she was voted ‘Unsexiest Woman of the Year’ in a Maxim poll a few years ago. I can’t answer why Matthew Broderick finds her attractive but I can assure you that I have never, ever heard a man describe her as pretty.
She is definitely very popular with white women – but this has more to do with her fashion sense than her appearance.
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https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10202084551543876&id=1489932727&set=a.1195315651607.30423.1489932727&source=46&refid=17
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@ V8driver
Is that you and your woman?
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@Wordynerdygirl,
That was my whole point.
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^There are many beautiful white women of course–it is just that those who have celebrity are held up as model women that many other women are trying to match up to no matter how average they are because men “think” the cameras do them justice.
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*Sign….
Thank you Ebony, The Alchemist and Personanongrata for providing some balance to this conversation.
Some of the other Black women on this thread are in deep denial. Alicia, I’m looking at you.
Peanut, I’ve seen some of your posts on BW themed blogs. Everyone keeps saying the same thing to you over and over again and it seems like its just not sinking in. You need to get to a place of neutrality concerning BM. Where you are emotionally right now is just not healthy. The internet is not your personal journal. Stop posting unfiltered thoughts.
The issue of BW in IR is one that will continue to be a hot topic for sometime. Depending on your area, it may be small or rapidly increasing. Regardless its happening. If there are BW that have a problem with BW being with WM, all I can say is that its something you have to get use to.
Swirlovin is a popular site on Twitter. It was started by a WM and his BW. It has over 15,000 followers and has turned into a mini dating site. These two groups are looking for each other.
BW marriage rates are increasing the fastest with…WM. This is our new reality.
On a side note BW really need their own movement! We are looong overdue.
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B.R,
I’m sorry but your prized reference is suspect or, perhaps more accurately, I should say that your take on it is very suspect. The idea that the origins of any anti-interracial relationship sentiment here is due to the influence of “the 60s” or Black Nationalism or Marixst influenced campus dogma! (lol!!!!) is as silly as the political conservatives who blame all of our current social ills on “the 60s”.
Considering that open consensual interracial unions of any kind were illegal for most of this country’s history, the idea that you can put it “all on Malcolm” as it were, is nonsense.
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@DarkandLovely,
“BW marriage rates are increasing the fastest with…WM. This is our new reality.”
Our whom? Despite any proposed increased interracial marriage rates one way or the other, the actual reality is and will continue to be for the foreseeable future is that vast majority of BW and BM who get married will marry intra-racially (each other) as all the other races do.
“On a side note BW really need their own movement! We are looong overdue.”
What kind of movement are you imagining? Black feminism is well established and BWE blogs and the like are flourishing. There seem to be plenty of BW activists and social media spaces promoting the interest of BW so what do you mean?
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ahh… quickly approaching the 1000 comment mark,definitely gonna be reading a lot,anyway I just realized today a primary and important component of this is demographics the size or quantity of the dominant or native population relative to the various minority populations.
In societies with exclusively homogeneous populations this is rarely even an issue as well as it being a relatively marginal issue for the predominant population of a society.
This leaves the various minority populations within societies that (where probably forced to emigrate to) they are members of being compelled to contemplate this option when selecting a mate.
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@phoebeprunello sorry, I thought you meant that that SJP has been placed on a pedestal by white men when I really don’t think she has. I like her (and so do many of my female friends) because she has a very quirky, fun sense of style. My admiration of her has declined since the two crappy SATC movies but that’s another story.
I do agree with you that some white women who are commonly described as beautiful beauty really aren’t very beautiful at all. I think someone like Jennifer Hudson, for example, is objectively much prettier than Gwyneth Paltrow – she is more feminine, has a prettier face etc. GP would be a good example of a woman who is quite ordinary but is glorified because she’s the quintessential WASP type.
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@phoebeprunello apologies for all the typos. Sticky fingers working on a touch screen.
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Ks, that is about the most bufoonish description of where I am coming from as you could imagine
If that is what you got out of what I said , you arent reading what I said or the material I brought in
I have carefully repeated white anti interracial attitudes are the worst and they invented it
And what I said is, the anti interracial diologue from black people on this blog and elsewhere , has its dogma and rhetoric firmly rooted in the late 60’s political anti interracial sex with white people agenda , and just read from page 225 of the last thing i brought in and its blatently , unrefutably obvious!!
You didnt even get the Malcolm referance, its like he wasnt stuck in that, he saw through it and sent a present to thr CORE guy and his wife…READ IT
Black male hard core activists were scrutinised for being with a white mate, which equal to anti white racists getting attacked on here, black women were intimidated ti conform..it all happened right back then…along with the bogus agendas against black culture, intellectual dogmas not well thought out
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I have also carefully said , these were flawed off shoots in a movement that was great , powerful and one of the most important movements in american history, so , that doesnt line up about what youare saying my point is…its not like the conservative point…I give great high value to the black American civil Rights Movement, how bs of you to imply I didnt
I just say these dogmad flawed political agendas ought to be scrutinised and jetisoned down the toilet into the cesspool of other anti interracial attitudes coming from all sides..white, black, Asian, and including religous, or creed anti inter marraidge agendas…just flush it down the toilet
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And there is absolutly nothing wrong with Peanut…
Peanut is very anti white racist, she is no way a schill for white people , and she is asking questions , and not with a white mate, the same for other anti white racists on here who have been smashed for questioning the dogma
Peanut , who may not be aware of the origins of the anti interracial sex political agenda from the 60’s, from the black American political diologue , but, the dogma she is running into is not playing out on the ground, and , that raises questions for her..
She is putting them on the table and instead of people trying to help her or answer her, she is smashed down and belittled
So, its not that Adonis doesnt have agood point about that…if you notice, his views on IRR are closer to EbonyMonroe, than Sondis and TrojanPam , its that it turns into the black man against black woman one upmanship, blaming the other , generalising, psycho analysing game..
You see two extremly sharp intelligent people like Adonis and EboneyMonroe, locked into a debate that is really black man versus black woman , and the baggage that is coming out with that…against the back drop of white racism
and maybe this is exactly the discussion two intelligent black men and women need to be having, which is also why , I have to step back, and not get in the middle and sure listen…but, brininging in rhe fonte and truth of the origins of anti interracial sex in the rhetoric and dogma in the black political agendas , from both sides, is my obligation, I have known far too many black people, men and women, who only get dragged through the mud in the anti interracial sex discussions…and, just look at it…two towering infernos,takes up the absolute most attention, and both agendas built on the foundations of a soft turd
Ks , if you want to wear that yoke around your neck, feel free…Im not going to change you if you dont want to go back and actualy look at the truth of the matter…that yoke must be heavy and it is taking your attention away from the real issues of white racism
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ABAGOND, THESE BOLD CAPS ARE TO GET YOUR ATTENTION, NOT SCREAMING
SOME SPECIFIC PEOPLE ON THESE ANTI INTERRACIAL SEX WITH WHITE PEOPLE THREADS , HAVE USED THE ARGUMENT
“WHITE PEOPLE ARE THE OPPRESSOR, THEY HAVE DONE MORE DAMAGE TO POC THAN ANYONE I HISTORY, YOU SHOULDNT BE IN BED WITH THEM”
EXACTLY AS I HAVE PROVEN, THE ORIGINS OF THIS KIND OF RHETORIC AND DOGMA, IN THE BLACK AMERICAN DIOLOGUE ABOUT INTERRACIAL SEX. CAME FROM THESE LATE 60’S EXTREME, I EMPHASISE, EXTREME,POLITICAL AGENDAS
IT IS A FACT THAT SOME OF THESE EXTREME BLACK NATIONALIST AGENDAS WERE HOOKED UP WITH SUPPORTING MAO, AND BY THAT , THE RED CULTURAL AGENDA THAT KILLED 20 MILLION….AND , THE MINORITY OF THOSE NATIONALISTS SUPPORTED COMMUNISM AND MAO AND CASTRO ETC
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO PUSHED THE ANTI INTERRACIAL SEX WITH WHITE PEOPLE, BASED ON “ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE THE OPPRESOR AND HAVE DONE WORSE THINGS TO POC THAN ANYTHING ON THE PLANET”
IN THE LIGHT OF THE ARAB SLAVE TRADE, THE ARAB SLAVE TRADER ARGUMENT NOT VALID HERE, THE FACT 1/4 OF PEOPLE FROM NORTH CHINA HAVE THE DNA FROM THEIR ANCESTORS BEING RAPED BY GENGHIS KAHN AND ALL OF HIS DESTRUCTION, AZTEC MASS HUMAN SACRIFICES, THE KHMER ROUGUE ELIMINATING 6 MILLION, 20 MILLION CHINESE KILLED BY THE JAPANESE IN THE 1930’S,ETC ETC, ITS OBVIOUS , WHITE PEOPLE HAVE LOTS OF COMPANY AS DESTROYERS AND OPPRESSORS, THE CORRECT STATEMENT IS:
“WHITE PEOPLE HAVE DONE MORE DAMAGE AND KILLING OF POC THAN POC HAVE DONE TO WHITE PEOPLE”..I COULD AGREE WITH THAT..
USING THE ALL WHITE PEOPLE AS THE OPPRESSOR AS THE REASON TO NOT BE IN BED WITH THEM,IS A HUGE REASON TO LOOK AT THE ORIGINS OF EXACTLY THAT POLITICAL AGENDA,AND SEE THE PEOPLE PUTTING IT OUT THERE ALSO SUPPORTED MAO AND SOME COMMUNISM, AND IT IS A HUGE REASON TO POINT OUT AT EXACTLY CLOSE TO THE SAME TIME, 20 MILLION WERE KILLED IN THE RED CULTURAL REVOLUTION…WHITE PEOPLE ARNT THE BIGGEST MAN’S INHUMANITY AWARD WINNERS HANDS DOWN……IT IS VERY RELEVANT TO REFUTE IDIOTIC NOTIONS ABOUT WHY BLACK PEOPLE SHOULDNT BE IN BED WITH WHITE PEOPLE
ITS VERY RELEVANT TO THIS DISISCUSION…AND I SAW IT BACK THEN AND KNEW IT WAS WRONG
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Abagond, my comment in moderation , is more a comment to you personaly about you thinking my comment to you about the Red cultural Revolution is idiotic in this discusion..it was in bold caps to get your attention, not meant as screaming…you dont have to put it up, it really was more my personal responce to you thinking it was idiotic
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@sharina yes not the sober college one this is me and miss yvonne we took a little break and now were back together.
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@Mbeti For the person who mentioned reaching a 1,000 comments, this is NOTHING NEW. Although @EbonyMonroe wants you to think otherwise.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2012/02/im-not-racist-i-just-dont-want-to-screw-a-white-man/
When it comes to
HAIR, WHITE MEN, BLACK MEN, MARRIAGE, SINGLE MOTHERS, FEMINISM, IR DATING, STREET HARASSMENT
Anybody throwing Black Women under the bus
The comment section explodes.
————————————–
Black Men go in on.
GOOD BLACK MEN BEING OVERLOOKED.
&
NEGATIVE ARTICLES on BLACK WOMEN
Anything I missed?
————————————–
@Peanut has to realize that being a “Nothing But A Brother” is bad business.
As @EbonyMonroe eloquently pointed out, there are lot of ABUSIVE brothas out here that LOVE black women.
Now, I already know a segment of the black female community loves that abuse.
My point is, if you are a well-adjusted BW, you might not have a choice.
Fatherlessness & poverty takes a toll on the black community.
So, keep non-BM in your back pocket.
You don’t have to date them, but keep them close.
And even if you find your perfect BM, every moment with him, will not be perfect.
The human body operates in cycles.
Good Day
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@B.R.
“And what I said is, the anti interracial diologue from black people on this blog and elsewhere , has its dogma and rhetoric firmly rooted in the late 60′s political anti interracial sex with white people agenda , and just read from page 225 of the last thing i brought in and its blatently , unrefutably obvious!!””
No, it’s just a weak collection of anecdotes strung together to form a weak theory. The idea that there was even such an “agenda” is dubious. Even if it was, which I doubt, it was a sideshow compared to the larger issues they were struggling with back then. What you presented was part of an offhand source (OMG!!! Page 225 on!!!!) that highlighted a few stories about some personal interactions and a few inflammatory statements and tried to blow it up into a “irrefutable” theory. Nonsense. Especially considering as I said earlier that black/white interracial relationships were illegal for a good portion of US history across wide swaths of this country so to lay it at the feet of “the 60s ” is absurd. Btw, my Malcolm reference was rhetorical not literal.
You like your pet theory because you’re defensive on this issue and it allows you to criticize certain people here without taking them on directly. Instead you patronize them and explain the “roots” of their opinions to them. Who are you to tell them that there opinions are based “firmly rooted in the late 60′s political anti interracial sex with white people agenda” especially when you haven’t presented any credible evidence of that supposed agenda, and more importantly, don’t even know if they’ve been influenced by such an agenda? You just characterizing and making assumptions about other’s views as a tactic to lecture them.
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What about other interracial relationships/marriages between racialized peoples?
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Not everything revolves around white people! There are actually other racialized groups that commingle with one another.
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Exactly. ^^
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“Exactly. ^^”
Ditto!
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Again, KS, you are so far off base it hurts…I could have just paraphrased the whole thing, because I did live through it..but, of course, that wouldnt have been good enough for you..
Then I bring in the SNCC paper, just showing that is a FACT that that was the direction that the movement was taking at that time, to seperate from white people…I didnt criticise that, I said that was laying the foundation
then I brought in THE PAPER FROM THE BLACK FEMINIST MOVEMENT , which again is a fact, mind you Im not endorsing what their agenda is, Im saying the descriptions of how black women were treated by some extreme factions in the black male activist movement , are acurate, I know those concepts were being expoused, and, several black nationalist leaders, Baraka, and Cleaver , were used as examples with direct quotes…this is fact…and , from reading THEIR PAPER, they say its the actions of some of the black nationalist males in the movement, is one of the reasons they are forming..as well as break off from the white feminist movement
then, I bring i an in depth book , that has descriptions from various places and experiances in the movement at that time, that just verifies past any doubts that that was the mood at that time, I lived through it , I verify it as well, now god dam it, where is your verification? because all you are doing is running off at the mouth
go live in a fantacy land if you want…you dont get , do you? First I keep saying the white racists invented this and play it better than anyone…Im tired of carefully laying these things out and then getting accused of saying the opisite
I say its desired to warn black people of the racism and pit falls of what could happen…just dont make it a mandate, and dont psychoanalise people from a distance you dont even know, with faulty psycho analysis , based on a flawed political agenda
You got to be real dense to not see that some people on here have put out exactly the things you see described on the things I brought in…you would have to be in serious denial
Dodging? did I hear you correctly? I have addressed everyone on here, Im right here…just bring it…any time any where..on this blog, off this blog..I dont wilt on this, and you dont have the will to out last me with an antirracial sex agenda..there are people who dont address white people on here…and you think Im dodging? cmon KS ,you are making weak arguments
The problem is not being willing to go back and really judge what happened back then
The small wing of the militants in the black Civil Rights Movwement,had various flawed agendas on the table, among many good things, YOU KEEP MISSING THESE THINGS iM SAYING…you really have to see the whole thing put together, from the militants of the flawed agendas…Anti interracial agenda, roll over black culture because they didnt take the time to realise its great value, put down serious black male activists for being with a white woman, after he went to jail and got beat by police, mandate that black women have to be loyal to white men…and then on the far tip…actual armed revolution
You know it was attemted, dont you? again, I lived back then, I know it happened…The Simion Liberation Army, and the SDS (talk about pathetic white people who got their political agenda screwed up) in Nyack New York, both ending patheticly and tragicly and pushing white voters to conservative voting for Nixon, Agnew , Ford and Reagon…who Cleaver actualy supporte…??!! Did you hear that? While one of the most quoted militant activists in the movement went on to make pants with a pocket for the male genitals…and supported Reagon..Jim Brown was actualy going deep into the los Angeles gang territory and working with them, like sitting outside a gang leader for everyday for a long time for stopping him from going to kill the gang menbers who shot his daughter…now that is real involvement
so, this enormous constant discusion from thread to thread, blog to blog , is really just off of two political agendas based out of the more extreme positions in the militant black movement, that also supported what was happening in china and Cuba and the Soviet Union(the Black Civil Rights Movement wasnt communist at all, only certain factions went that way), that are as firm as a soft turd..
You do know that the extreme white racists couldnt have done a better job at actualy bolstering white supremacy because of those extreme militant positions…its as though they paid people to infiltrate and cause these agendas
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Well, we absolutly have tried, I asked Sharina something about her experiances…and look what happened to Sharina…look what happened to linda on another thread , having to pass some credibility test
I hate going onto the anti interracial against black people being with white…it is horrible…i dont start these things , i dont finnish them…this is the middle class black man and black woman discusion of choice….that isnt my opinion…just look at the evidence…I hardly posted on the BWE thread…its way beyond me
KS, I am not lecturing, i am defending against a flawed political agenda from the 60’s that comes down to hurt us into today
I am studying two countries and especialy this late 60’s period,where many political agendas went down that did terrible damage and come down into today to haunt us…I see it big time in brazil, but not in the black struggle…their political discusion is all white
Im not lecturing , Im brining in facts and realities to support my position…i was there, also…did you read any of the material I brought in, or just shooting from the hip?
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I’m sure that study only surveyed a handful of Black men in a certain region (mainly all white cities or towns) to come to that conclusion. Even still, i think the underlying message was that Black men are more likely to date out than Black women and when they do its usually with white women as opposed to other non-white women of color. The groups in the U.S. who do the most dating/marrying out are white men and Asian women (although in recent times, with the steady growth of Asian immigrants, Asian women have been preferring their own men because its more of them to choose from now)…
Although i hate them with a passion–mainstream Black male magazines are a better representation of what many Black men prefer physically because its readership are Black males from different economic backgrounds.
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KS…Im sorry if it seems like I have an edge to you…I want to debate this with you, if you want, but with out an edge from me..Im not angry at anyone, Im angry at political agendas i saw a long time ago haunting us…that wasnt a put down on the black middle class, either, just an observation…I respect the black middle class immencly
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so is it an echo of colonializsm or something if i take my overfed employed white ass to the ghetto and meet a black girl and take her as mine is that kind of what we’re seeing here as some arguments? I know the chickenbone piece would say something like this. I get real uncomfortable if a black woman starts talking about n* aint ish all that i got me a white man, that is truly unneccessary. idk i gotta go back to work again now
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but damn if i didn’t have a fine time this weekend with miss yvonne, haters gone hate, bye!
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Is it because you do not fit the Black Male physical beauty ideal?
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Last comment for @phoebeprunelleo
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“Adonis
Although i hate them with a passion–mainstream Black male magazines
“Is it because you do not fit the Black Male physical beauty ideal?”
Probably, more than not.
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this gotta be it for now, just let me say, there is mostly black woman/black man couples down my neighborhood, or even here in the suburbs, ie with a black person involved, again, don’t make it too difficult on yaself
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@B.R.,
No B. R., I’m not off base. I’m exactly right. All your long repetitive rant does is prove my point yet again. You are picking selective pieces of the old somewhat inflammatory Black Nationalist rhetoric from the 60s that you are bu$$hurt about and trying to apply it people’s opinion here. You are instructing them that their opinions are being guided by an “agenda” from the past when you have no way of whether that is actually the case. That’s patronizing nonsense. Their opinions are as valid as yours and they can just as easily claim based on, similar selective “evidence”, that you have an agenda as well and that wouldn’t make sense either.
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@Herneith,
“What about other interracial relationships/marriages between racialized peoples?
Not everything revolves around white people! There are actually other racialized groups that commingle with one another.”
True to the latter but what “racialized” peoples do you think are missing from the discussion? In Abagond’s original post and the subsequent discussion, it seems like there’s been every imaginable racial combo discussed so far.
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The blockquote shouldn’t have happened–btw, Adonis–i’m married to a Black man.
Abagond, i thought sondis was not supposed to address anything about my posts indirectly as well?
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@Adonis
Adonis said
“@Peanut has to realize that being a “Nothing But A Brother” is bad business.
As @EbonyMonroe eloquently pointed out, there are lot of ABUSIVE brothas out here that LOVE black women.
Now, I already know a segment of the black female community loves that abuse.
My point is, if you are a well-adjusted BW, you might not have a choice.
Fatherlessness & poverty takes a toll on the black community.
So, keep non-BM in your back pocket.
You don’t have to date them, but keep them close.
And even if you find your perfect BM, every moment with him, will not be perfect.
The human body operates in cycles.
Good Day”
…………………………………………
Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. What on earth are you talking about Adonis. Don’t try to flip this on me. YOU’RE THE ONE SAYING BW ARE NO GOOD, okay? You said why you feel they’re no good, and I explained the social constructs that frame the issue in the Black female community that you take issue with. You claim I make BM out to be victims. For the duration of our debate, I have been defending BM and BW. So don’t even try going there with me. How could you try and flip this, when I’m the one over here defending my own BM and BW? Shame on you Adonis, shame on you! Oh no, miss Monroe does not do BM bashing.
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^Peanut
my advice to you is go for what you want.
I did and he put me through graduate school twice. 🙂
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@phoebeprunelleo
Good advice. 🙂
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@Sharina,
Ha!
Thanks boo. Us married girls know the deal!
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Peanut:
“There are some nice white men out there who aren’t’ racists, but I’ve only known two like this in my lifetime.”
A white man, doesn’t have to be an actual, “Racist” to look at a black women as a ‘Negro Bed wench”. The majority of white men, do fall into the, “Racist” category but the ones that don’t, will sleep with a black women in the Negro bed wench, mindset.
These are the white men that will sleep with a black woman but will not settle down and marry a black woman or have children with her. aka ( Negro Bed wench )
So don’t just look out for the white men, that are “racist”, you should also look out for the ones that have so called, “black best friends” and liberal white men that say to your face, “color doesn’t matter to me”, ( the color-blind racist ) then screw a black woman and ditch her to the curb, the minute she asks for a ring or expect long term commitment, he gets the hell outta doge!!
Most black women that get into relationships with white men, convince themselves that they are not a negro bed wench and none will ever admit to it, not matter how much its evident. Black women, adopt the, “color-blind” mindset, whenever they date a white man. I do agree, that SEX is color blind, not love.
This is what the white man is REALLY, saying when he says this to a black woman but MOST black women play dumb and act as if they’re not black and the white man that is courting them, isn’t white.
This is why the whole, “color-blind: mindset doesn’t work. With this mindset, the black woman can think of him in a race neutral way, which isn’t wise being she ignores the history and the present on how white men, see and treat black women. So she doesn’t see him or white people as racist, simply because she is sleeping with him, (for the time being that is ).
This comes from white people, brash washing black people into thinking that, “color doesn’t matter” when it actually does matter in the grand scheme of things.
Then when the white men up and leaves for no apparent reason or a trivial one at that, she wonders why and when someone plainly puts it to her, that she was a Negro bed wench, she refuses to believe, that a white man would only want her for sex and sex only, simply because she is black.
Then when a black man, uses her for sex, she shouts it on top of the mountain top! BLACK MEN ARE ALL DOGS! She says nothing of the white man, she makes every single excuse for him, “we wanted different things” “it just didn’t work out” I’ve heard it all from several black women and not ONE, said it had to do with the fact that she was black!
I guess black women think, that white men aren’t racist, when it comes to having sex them or dating them but outside from that, the majority of white men are racist but you wouldn’t know that from a black woman as they never call it for what it is, when a white man, uses them for sex, then give vague reasons and excuses as to why they didn’t want to commit and marry them or have children with them.
Its denial in full affect by black women.
I admit loud and clear that the majority of white women, look at black men as MANDINGOS!
This is why i always say, that the reason why all of the black women on this blog, get so upset when i point out this fact that the majority of white men, see them as negro bed wenches, black women attack me for pointing it out.
Its because black women are so devastated and hurt that a white man, has rejected them, because they are black and the fact that me, a black man has the nerve to point it out to them!
Its insecurity and self hate by black women, so they take it out on a black man, that just points out FACT on how the MAJORITY of white men, feel about black women.
Don’t shoot the messenger….
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@ KS..the vast majority of BM do not marry period. BW have had such low marriage rates because until recently they were limitiming themselves to BM only.
The high OOW and single rates are not a figment of my imagination.
I made a comment based on the census stats that over a decade BW marriage rates increased by 400% with WM. It would have been great if it was happening with BM, but it wasn’t. There
is no way around this truth.
Why is it so hard to grasp that BM are not marrying BW in large numbers?
If you have taken the time to read the more popular BWE blogs, you would already know that most of these sites not only flat out reject the feminist movement in historical terms, but the reject the word feminist period. Which is exactly why the coined their names as BWE.
As a matter of fact, post after post and encouraging BW to remove themselves from the national feminist movement altogether, stating how feminism has not benefitted BW as a collective.
What I am speaking of is a national empowerment movement that caters to
the educational, financial, political, civic, mental health/fitness, etc., well being of BW and girls. What you’re speaking of is mainly online. I’m talking about gaining educational and financial independence for BW on a mass scale. Our own Civil Rights Movement!
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@Kiwi,
Are you a fan of Wong Fu Productions?
Clip from “Yellow Fever”
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8qILF8ZQzw)
I guess they at least to try to make a very real problem seem funny.
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Penut:
“Pick another term to use because it’s insulting to our ancestors who were forced into sexual relationships with white men during slavery (and reconstruction/jim crow) to use that term and it implies that black women who are with white men are slaves…use another term because that is very offensive and i’m tired people THROWING that term around like it’s nothing!”
I use whatever term, I CHOOSE TO USE. You or anyone on this blog, don’t get to tell me what is acceptable. Especially from someone that proclaimed, that all men are “DOGS and “NO GOOD”.
So no, you don’t get to tell anyone, what they can and not say. Where was your stance on this, when you were, “throwing around” the fact that all men are trash and no good? huh?
Just because the times have changed and now, black women have the choice to sleep with a white men, doesn’t mean the meaning behind, “this term has not changed. Its just taken a different form but still means the same thing. There are black women, that are in these types of relationships with white men, some are willing to fill this role and some are in such a relationship but play dumb and make it a point to ignore it and think the white man will, eventually come around and marry then or want to have children with them.
This is the slave mentality some black women have, when dealing with white men in romantic relationships.
Racism hasn’t changed, so should stop calling white people racist? or should be be more PC about it and say, “white people are “racially challenged”? Give me a break….
I call it how i see it, i won’t tone down my wording for anyone, black man or woman. I mean what i say and i say what i mean, period!
I am also not surprised, that you ignored everything else i said and focused on one thing in my entire post, which was a word, that describes a relationship between a white man and a black women, where the white man has no intentions of being in a meaningful relationship with her and only sees her as a sexual fetish.
Nice try at debating one thing out of the many, relevant points i made for the sole purpose of derailing my entire response, to make it about a term and not what it is that i was trying to say.
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@DarkandLovely,
There is nothing hard to grasp at all. Whether the “vast majority?” of BM get married is irrelevant to this issue. Namely, those that do mostly marry BW and vice versa and the increasing rate of, in this case, BW and WM marriages won’t change that for the foreseeable future. Period. The current stats are in Abagond’s original post. The vast majority of Black marriages are intra-racial as in most black people who do get married, marry other Black people. What’s so hard to grasp about that?
Your 400% assertion is very misleading. If you start from “nothing” per se and have an increase, you can represent that as a big statistical increase though, in reality, the actual situation will be little changed. As is the case here.
Okay do you reject Black feminism as well as feminism in general? I ask because I mentioned Black feminism not feminism in general. It’s odd that you say I’m speaking of mainly online and then ask if I’ve read BWE blogs which I don’t regularly read because, despite the few good nuggets, I found the ones I briefly looked at I found to be mostly filled with high-minded pretension and trifling complaints. Mostly a lot of feel good hot air, like a call for “BWE Civil Rights Movement” and little tangible action/results. Speaking of a BWE Civil Rights Movement, it seems strange that you ignore all the current efforts underway which are working on the very things you claim there needs to be a Movement to address.
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idk peanut maybe if u can.. move somewhere else in the future that has a more diverse population. i know u don’t want to leave ur family but if its a city or something that has a more diverse population nearby like an hour or two away. or u could go on a dating show rofl.
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@ KS…what are you talking about? You responded to my initial post by stating that the vast majority of BW and BM who do marry, will marry one another. Now you’re saying that its not relevant who BM marry? Where in either of my posts did I say that Black people would stop marrying each other? I didn’t. What I highlighted was that the marriage rate is increasing the fastest with BW who are in IR. There is no way around that truth. The census numbers were released in 2010. Three years later, those numbers have increased for BW.
No one’s IR numbers get big overnight. They all start small and increase. Growth is growth. For a group of women who traditionally have shied away from IR, 400% increase in a decade is nothing to sneeze at. This is the direction a growing number of BW are headed. That was my overall point
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I reject the term feminist period. What you deem as hot air, others view as awareness and motivation. That is the beauty of diversity of thought, each of us can come away with differing opinions from the same source. But like you said, they are flourishing, which means their audience is growing.
A BWE Civil Rights Movement has little results because there isn’t one. I am more than aware of individual Black female groups in various states across America that are working on some of the goals I was speaking about.
Hence my repeated use of the term National. A National merging of these organizations working for the well being of BW on a National level. Hope that clears it up. Whatever your personal opinions may be, the reality of a National movement for BW is a growing reality.
This is going to happen, whether you think its just feel good platitudes to you or not.
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@DarkandLovely,
No I said that your answer that the vast majority of BM don’t get married is irrelevant and besides my point which was the factual truth – the vast majority of Black people who do get married marry each other. Whatever interracial marriage trend there is (and remember trends can go both ways), will not change that much in your lifetime. That’s the cold hard fact. End of story.
In terms of your BWE Civil Rights Movement hope, guess what? There are already local AND national groups who have been working on those issues long before BWE blogs and Black twitter existed and I doubt they’d be foolish enough to allow themselves and their long standing efforts to subsumed into a “national movement” proposed by rah-rah bloggers and twittereres as it would probably fizzle out like the Occupy Wall St. but I guess hope springs eternal.
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Ha-ha, just watched the full official version of Yellow Fever (2006) (about 17 mins. long). The full version even features a black guy.
(http://youtu.be/vC_ycDO66bw)
I am wondering just about the interplay of the law, sex ratio and about stereotypes. During the Jim Crow era, about 1/3 of Asian men in the South formed relationships (common law, cohabitation or actual marriage) with black females. At that time, Asian female / white male pairings were even more rare. We can pinpoint the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act and the 1967 Loving v. Virginia ruling, but what else has changed exactly? Is it the effect of the Model Minority Stereotype? I also wonder how the viewpoint of black females towards Asian males has changed over the past 50 years. Has this been addressed somewhere?
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@KC, it does not matter what you say. Everything Changes. Everything is changing for BW. Their marriage trends will not only change in my lifetime, but they will change rapidly in the next 5 years alone. It doesn’t matter if you believe it or like it, that train has left the station and its picking up steam. Get use to it or not, it doesn’t matter.
BW will have their own National movement.
Stay negative and watch BW handle their business.
You’re soooo bitter! Lol…Goodbye!
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“No B. R., I’m not off base. I’m exactly right. All your long repetitive rant does is prove my point yet again. You are picking selective pieces of the old somewhat inflammatory Black Nationalist rhetoric from the 60s that you are bu$$hurt about and trying to apply it people’s opinion here. You are instructing them that their opinions are being guided by an “agenda” from the past when you have no way of whether that is actually the case. That’s patronizing nonsense. Their opinions are as valid as yours and they can just as easily claim based on, similar selective “evidence”, that you have an agenda as well and that wouldn’t make sense either. ”
KS..so, this is your defence? I mean , you have to be joking..
First, actualy, I did start paraphrasing…the only voice trying to say, go back and check the late 60’s, that is where the origins of this flawed agenda come from, which you dont see in Brazil, for example, which means it isnt a universal agenda that fits all situations where the same conditions have gone down..
and, it was Abagond , who challenged me to prove it…and I did , beyond a shadow of a doubt
all you are doing is sluffing off the truth right in front of your eyes…did you read it?
I hardly patronised…you sluff it off and criticise and try to diminish it, but, the information is too blatent…I hardly tried to find it..you want me to find more?I could go on for a long time bringing in links…its you who think with a couple of flipant responces, can actualy erase the evidence
by the way, Im as concerned about black men as women
I mean, I brought in the reality…you have to bring in some kind of facts to counter it, not your charm and quippy come back
And, you make it seem like thread after thread , blog after blog of black men and women going on ad infinitum on this , doesnt indicate an over attention on one of the least important factors in the struggle against white racism…the struggle must be leaving a lot of time on your hands if you can twittle your thumbs so much inanti interracial sex…
But the truth is, this is a diologue between nblack men and black women to re calibrate themselves outside from underneath a flawed political agenda, its done so much damage, that why do you think there is so much arguing over this…black men and women need to find each other again…this isnt patronising..its an observation from someone who cares…someone who doest could only lick their lips at the confrontation
I mean their are blatent tie ins with the agenda , Im talking about from the past
Pheobe.. if that is your picture in the avatar, you are fi-ine..and I know a lot of black men that would be proud to haveyou on their arm…you look like you could rock a string bikini
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Does anybody else on here think the evidence I brought in, that I think proves my point beyond a shadow of a doubt , is too scetchy or random?
Because it would be my pleassure to rock this thread to hades with link after link proving my point about flawed agendas people are still stuck on into today that went down in the black militant political agendas back then…that were side by side with great political agendas that actualy moved black people forward…how did black people actualy make a shift upward to the middle class on a large scale back then? surly the upsurge of black people going to college was one of the factors…the absolute back breaking work of their parents was another
Just as an example of the differant nuances going on back then,There is a differance with implying black people should arm themselves to give any white racists the impresion that black people will defend themselves against any physical racist attacks , and actualy starting an armed revolution…both trains of thought did exist in those black militant positions…one is rational and makes sence, the other is irrational and failed miserably in Nyack New York
These ar the kind of nuances that went down, and they should be looked at. People should be able to go back and say “that was wrong, we need to go back to the drawing board and correct it, tweak it”
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@ B.R.
I will check your source later.
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B. R.
You didn’t prove anything. You just repeated what you believe to be true or want to be true. I don’t need to “defend” anything. Your proposal that some folks here are opining in the way that they are because they’ve been influenced by some “flawed agenda from the 60s” is, again, nonsense and I see you’ve even thrown in some Brazilian mythology into in the mix this time. Heh. You keep ignoring that IR has been a controversial topic way before “the 60s”.
The “evidence” you are holding up is classic bad internet “scholarship” that thinks that linking to somebody else’s opinion that they agree with, proves theirs. In your case, it’s even worse as you’re simply offering excerpts. Oh, I’m sure you can provide tons of babble that you agree with but that won’t prove your point – that others are operating from a flawed agenda from the 60s.
Overall, it’s clear you have a problem with some old Black Nationalist rhetoric from the 60s but that’s your issue and as much as you try to “grandfather” folks about it, it’s time to move on.
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@DarkandLovely,
Good luck as it seems you’ve crossed over from reasonably hopeful to full on fantasy. In any event, you can say “You go girl” in 3 words or you can say it in 3000 words and call yourself a BWE blog. If the latter makes you feel better, go for it.
As an aside, it’s funny how strongly you reject feminism when you embrace many 3rd wave feminist concepts for girls/women like raising awareness and the even more dubious “empowerment”.
Oh, insofar as your proposed movement goes, my advice would be to try to raise more dollars rather than awareness. The last thing the people you hope to help need is more empty talk even if it’s dressed in new clothing. A good example would be the Pink campaigns for breast cancer awareness as they raise boatloads of money though that might be too specific an issue for your grand imaginings. Nah, on second thought, it might be better for you to stick to abstract talk on the blogs.
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@Peanut
You asked a question about luck with the fellas a few posts back. I don’t know what part of the US you’re living in, but I’m a city girl, and city girls don’t have the time to wait on the fellas. If you see a cute guy you like, (no matter what race), just walk on over, and strike up a convo. Tell him he looked real good walking by, not to put up a fight, and to hand over his number.
Call him, talk, and ask if you can take him out sometime. Just go for it.
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Interesting post @Jefe
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@ Peanut
Are you against dating or marrying a non-American?
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@BR.
Sorry but I have to 100% disagree with this
“but, what is perplexing is, the black nationalists didnt give the avante guarde black jazz artists more recognition, they were going on at the same time ,and the avante guarde jazz musicians captured that mood better than anyone…people like Pharroh Sanders, who you did a peice on…”
Some of the self-identified black nationalists and afro-centric people of the late sixties and seventies were among Pharoah Sanders’ biggest fans. The type of people who went to his concerts during his most fertile period tended to be the sort of people who wore their hair natural, were interested in moving away from Euro-centered religion and philosophy, and didn’t mind dressing in real or imitation African style of clothing. During that period on FM radio you could hear James Brown, Phil Ranelin and Pharoah Sanders all on the same station. I was very young and only got taken to a few Sanders’ concerts but I remember the crowd being mostly black with the vibe I describe.
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Shady…great to hear from you…as I sad in my post, in new York, or at a concert of his, you of course could find people who had naturals, black people and some nationalists….
but, and it wasnt really an opinion, as much as wanting your take, and what i would have to ask you, then, where in any of the black Civil Rights diologue at that time, is there any cultural referance to the black avante guarde, as being an important part of the movement and what was happening at that time?
Id like to see it…again , I know many black nationalists liked jazz, like Baraka, but , some kind of cultural referance, in the diologue, which was mostly political instead of cultural,which is my point, seems absent, from what i can tell
but, thanks for your insight on that
Ks, statement in moderation…dont know why…except it also has a referance to the black nationalist militant thought by some factions with the anti interracial political agendas and the leader of china and the red book…but Abagond doesnt like that truth..maybe that red flagged it
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“grandfather folks”…blahahahahahah hoooooeeeeo!! Ks, that is so cute…I love it…old grandpops here trying to tell young people something…hahah I knew there was something going on in here with my posts…ba ha bla hahaha
I mean you got it down , Im “granfathering ” people, and, even if I bring in a huge amount of posts verifying my points (those werent opiniions, they were THE SNCC manifest explaining themselves, and, same with the MIT paper, it was black feminists and their manifesto and , a serious in depth book, with more information than anyone on here can offer up about interracial relationships in the states), it doesnt matter
I mean, I was just seeing today, various articles and papers that absolutly ties in the anti interracial agendas, with its rhetorical stances you see here by some people, to its origins to the extreme black nationalistic political agendas in the 60′s, and how they were ideologicly supporting the leader of china, and the little red book , that 20 million people were killed , because of, that i cant mention the name or it gets flagge
I was informed by the owner of this blog that it was idiotic…yet its plain as day to anyone who does the minimum amount of research on it that, by god, yes, there was a wing of the black nationalist militant extreme political agendas, that wanted total loyalty from the black women to not date white men, that male black activists , who paid big dues, were criticised if they had white mates, that integrated couples were banned from college campus black meetings (read it today), that Armstrong was an uncle tom, and tap was shucking and jiving, and the Little Red Book and M a o were looked up to with Che and Castro, Che being a racist, and the Commie regime in cuba couldnt stop racism…and people are feeding off that exact rhetoric today with out even knowing it or where it came from
you are darn real it is relevant when people have used exactly their arguments “all white people are the oprressor, of POC around the world, for that reason you cant be in bed with them..’ and these are the same people that admire M ao and espouse his teachings and philosophies hades yes, its important to tie in .to show how faulty and flawed those agendas are…that is VALID
And this is all true and I can prove it….but , hey, Im old grandpops, my time is valuable, and its a pain to set up those links…so, since you dont care..it wouldnt matter to you anyway…old grandpops is going out and check out some really fine booty on the beach, the kind your young whipper snapper @ss would give a left nut to see..you know, old granpops took the time to educate himself where to find that in this world, and made a bee line to get to that and get the hades away from any dolt that walks out the door and starts to pseudo psycho analyse and feel queasy about seeing interracial couples from a distance
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@BR Many black people were not overly fond of Frederick Douglass’ choice to marry a white feminist or for that matter Sammy Davis Jr’s or Dorothy Dandridge’s or Lena Horne’s romantic choices. This all happened before the sixties and/or before sixties era black nationalism. IR sex/marriage has always been controversial especially in a nation that often outlawed it to protect white supremacy.
For most black people IR marriage/sex was simply not very important when weighed against such things as voting, police brutality, housing segregation, inferior schooling, job discrimination, and so on. There were some who were opposed, some in favor and most who didn’t care one way or the other. Given that it’s only in the past 40-50 years that the US was forced to remove explicit laws upholding white supremacy it is not surprising that some black people would look askance at those blacks who married whites while collectively the black community was getting its a$$ kicked by whites in ways great and small every day. For the same sort of reasons you probably wouldn’t find a lot of present day Palestinians who would be gung-ho about marrying Jewish Israelis. Once the social relations between the communities change there is more room to see each other as people. That’s a human thing. It’s not peculiar to the examples I listed. That said, again, even during the worst times there have always been people of different races who found love with each other. That’s also human nature.
I get that you like Armstrong and tap dancing. But as I mentioned, times change. They always have. It doesn’t automatically mean there’s a political conspiracy involved. BB KIng, who is about 3 steps below God as far as I am concerned, talks of being booed by some younger black audiences as early as the late fifties because they felt his music was old timey. With a few notable exceptions, blues music today is a chamber music that no longer speaks to the interests or aspirations of young black people. I don’t 100% agree with that analysis but the audience for most blues performances has shifted. Why that is is a different post entirely but the young creative that was listening to or inspired by Armstrong in 1925 is likely listening to a rap/house artist in 2013.
This would have happened regardless of political developments in the sixties.
Music and really any creative endeavor is usually a young man’s game. Few people make critical break throughs or get major commercial success past their forties. Armstrong had a long career but it is stretching it to suggest that sixties youth and teens would have been huge fans of someone born in 1901, were it not for black nationalism.
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Abagond…so im trying to get my comment out of moderation and altered something but it still is being flagged, so, since i cant see a reason why it cant be on, you can keep one and lose the other
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Shady, first , so there should be a mandate that Jews shouldnt marry Palistinians? Because that is what Im talking about…I am not saying people are suposed to forget racism and its good if we had more interracial relationships, Im saying any mandate telling people who they can and cant go out with, and pseudo psycho analising people from a distance and pegging them and feeling a negative feeling about it with out even knowing them, is wrong…Im not sure why people keep misunderstanding that , because ive tried to make that clear, i love black love, and interracial love
Ha, Shady, I opened for BB King in about 68, at the Checkmate that was on 55th back then, but moved to where thHigh Chaperal was on 60th or so, and, no one…no one was in the audience
Shady, i know you are intelligent to know that in the ken burns docu on jazz, , Wynton did yeoman work to go into the facts of the black nationalists viscious put downs of Armstrong…this is not conjecture, and i knew of the tap put downs
I totaly understand how music idioms change…but , this id differant, its throwing culture under the bus to suit an agenda
I mean , ive seen the page that shows juba invented tap dance and he had to wear cork…all black entertainers had to wear cork to entertain whites…have you decided to see that juba’s art is seperate from looking at white racvist attitudes and mandates how black performers are suposed to perform, and can see tap for the high art that it really is and ought to be embraced?
Im not looking for people en masse to go .listen to armstrong, I dont on a regular basis, or start tapping, Im looking for people to give re newed respect and embrace these wonderful black american artists…
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Shady, its the negative connotations, about all those things, that was tird up in one little packedge , by a small group, in various places , of people putting to gether some not well thought out political agendas, that by any stretch of the imagination are flawed
So, people will mention tap in the context of shucking and jiving, and armstrong in the context of being an uncle tom
and, these negative connotations of onterracial relationships, “it must be colorisation”,”she must be exploited”
people need to think of Armstrong as one of the greatest American musicians of all time, and it should be taught in schools, and the great art of tap dancing should be respected , and an activity any black parent wouldnt hesitate to put their kids in a tap class and disscuss these great artistd
and interracial relationships should just be no big deal
but, negative connotations have made these things stay in a negative light
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@Shady_Grady,
Boom! Thank you. Enough said.
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oh no , not enough said at all,,
Ks, “grandfathering people”…oh man, that is cute…so that is the feeling I was wondering what I was getting from here…Im grandpops…ba hahah
and, you are basicly saying, it just doesnt matter what I bring in at all,
(sorry but the first two papers were manifestos, they werent opinion, and the last was an in depth book with more information on interracial relationships than anyone on here put together), its just a scholastic trick, so any facts , and true referances dont count, while you bring nothing in, and dont read the referances…so , actualy, there is nothing i can say to change the situation ..
Well, that is a neet trick how to shut truth and facts from cvoming in, I have to admit
I mean, just a minimum research today turns up various examples that the roots of the rhetoric Im talking about , are squarely planted in the small , narrow space of a few extreme black nationalist militants , from various areas, and their themes and variations on “all white people are oppressors, “black people cant be in relationships with white people”…tied in with agandas against tap dancing and Armstrong and support and tie ins with the leaders of c hina and cuba, and notions of armed revolution…and these negative connotations of anti interracial sex, and the particular rhetoric you are hearing here , are right from there…sorry, Garvy and Nation od Islam have a differant rhetoric, but it must have influenced some of the black militants…
but, ks, since you dont care, wont read it and will have no affect, heck, Im grandpops, my time is precious, why link you up?
I think you would rather keep the yoke on…and , i guess Brazil is a myth for you, you havnt been there, but , the last 28 years have been a major education , about many things , but immensly educational for the issues we are talking about…ah , but , just let my reality be myth for you
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Shady, Im going to have to ask you then, was the report in the Ken Burns docu with Wynton explaining the ugly incident with Armstrong bogus?
Because that doesnt line up with your styles change and that is what happened
That played out with Armstrong in the bebop era, with a style change, and there was conflict between the two, but that had nothing to do with what Wynton was talking about
That was a mean spirited political agenda that just threw Armstrong under the bus…are you going to deny that docu?
Because its real simple , Shady, either you can look at these great tappers and try to get back into the black American cultural historical memory, the value of this art and the artists , or keep false negative connotations about the history…all black entertainers had to wear cork..you cant crucify him for the era
The coco group I saw, that was a parralel to tap, was rescuing the culture of slaves…because that was long ago , that makes it insignificant?
whew, am I the only one who gets to have the exaultasation and inspiration at being moved by seeing this coco group and knowing the parralel hook up of Adro diasporic cultures with tap? Am I the only one to be lucky enough to have this unbeleivable experiance/
So many times when Im in Brazil , I see afro diasporic culture and think “my gosh, I wish some black americans could see this and get the tremendous insights im getting”…when Peanut went to Salvadoer, I was exited to see what her reactions would be cultualy as a black American woman experiancing black Brazil for the first time…and, knowing about black american culture only deepens the experiance …and knowing about tap and those artists is just profound cultural knowledge…sure, each generation find their voice…but its really based on what went down before…the great artists know their history…and while the new generstion puts their voice forward, in the deeper cultural historical memory, tap has to be exonerated and embraced and welcomed back in thwe cultural black American memory with good connotations
So , Shady I dont agree with yoiur statement that it is just new idioms coming on the scene, that culture was thrown under the bus by mean spirited not well thought out agendas, just like the agendas against interracial relationships
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@adonis
Adonis said,
“Shut your mouth when you speak to me young boy.
You don’t know WTF I know and/or have experiencedz”
interesting, apparently you have 8 million excuses why you can’t get hooked up with a black woman and feel that rape (even that of minors) could be beconsidered sexual adventurism or ‘experimentation’. You are a vile person and have nothing but contempt for everyone, and I hope you enjoy your lonlieness.
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@adonis excepting sondis you too would probably make a cute couple, you should try it since women aren’t doin it for you what the heck
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you know what, wantin to be protesting two people being in love, please.
i get it, it could be some deepseated trigger of overall societal oppression and blah blah but that doesn’t give (implied) the black woman too much credit for her own decision making process, and let me tell you something, my black girlfriend isn’t just sticking by me because i be sitting there crying about how unfair everything is …i get out and hustle and make it better one day at a time, i suggest those of you lovelorn souls attempt something similar to this and stop blaming the other one
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@DarkAndLovely,
I have to laugh at this, because given that most of White society is racist and that Black women give birth to Black boys and have black fathers ( usually), brothers, uncles, nephews, etc, it doesn’t make any sense and is not realistic. I as a black woman, although my parents divorced when I was young, have had PLENTY of black men help me in my lifle to get to where I am.
I also believe the marriage crisis is not just black males, but also black girls/women as well, too many of whom are WAY TOO QUICK to sleep with a man without protection and as a result, have a child for a man way to quick before the man commits, promises her anything or even tells her he is ready to have a child.
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lol @ any of the other black women here who honestly believe the answer is White men, the vast majority of whom if had it their way, we wouldn’t be wanted by anyone, be seen as attractive in the media at all and even our black men would shun us.
Let’s stop the bull ok.
Have any of you seen all the ads between Match.com and others where White males young and old post ads where they check off every single box BUT BLACK.
White, Hispanic, Asian, other and leave out Black.
Then throw in the fact that White men, along with White women are the ones who tend to want to see black women marginalized, dependent, vulnerable, downtrodden, fat, overweight, unwanted and you claim that White men are the answer and how relationships with them go so great, You all must be KIDDING ME!
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Alicia
lol @ any of the other black women here who honestly believe the answer is White men, the vast majority of whom if had it their way, we wouldn’t be wanted by anyone, be seen as attractive in the media at all and even our black men would shun us.
Let’s stop the bull ok.
Have any of you seen all the ads between Match.com and others where White males young and old post ads where they check off every single box BUT BLACK.
White, Hispanic, Asian, other and leave out Black.
Then throw in the fact that White men, along with White women are the ones who tend to want to see black women marginalized, dependent, vulnerable, downtrodden, fat, overweight, unwanted and you claim that White men are the answer and how relationships with them go so great, You all must be KIDDING ME!
I agree with you, 100% Alica.
Its delusional and wishful thinking at best. Its apart of the slave mentality that black women and men have, living in a white supremacist, society.
Blacks have been brain washed and programmed into thinking, that white people, are the answer to all our relationship, problems. White men and women are so much better in terms of relationships, opposed to our own black people.
This is the white supremacy, pushing this agenda via interracial websites, across the internet! giving a false impression that white men are marrying black women in droves, when in actuality, the majority of black women, marry back men and vice versa. You wouldn’t know this, if you take what white people say about our marriage census, percentages.
I don’t trust anything these white people say about black people, there is always an agenda!
These black women on this blog are typical of black women in America, that support black on white relationships but condemn, black on black, relationships. They have their white man, so they fiercely defend and fight other black women, that are for their black men.
They don’t care about the preservation of black people but support the mixing out of black by having children with white people.
This is a strategy, that has been in effect for years! This is why white people, always say thing like, ” we will all be the same color anyway, so there won’t be any racism if we all mix together.”
This is a lie and their true motive is to mix out black people and fool us into thinking, racism won’t exist if we mix with them.
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@Abagond,
I agree. Im not against white-black dating per se, however it’s a lie to claim that relationships with whites work better or that whites make better partners or that whites have a respective Black gender’s back moreso than the opposite sex of our own race.
It’s bull. The vast majority of Black women with dark skin and natural or relaxed hair are with Black MEN, not white men. In general, those are not traits found attractive by White men.
I also find it weird when Black men claim white women are “nicer”. It’s strange because I believe women have more intimate relations with other women and while I can say I have met many “nice” or “cool” Asian women, Latina’s, a few Arabs and others, the VAST MAJORITY of White women I have met have been anti-Black, so really, how honestly nice can they be?
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Alica:
Are you responding to me or Abagond? where did he respond to you?
I responded to you, just in case you thought, abagond did.
I too, am not against, interracial relationships, “per say” as well.
I just keep it real with black women on here and tell it like it is and don’t sugar coat anything, when i say, THE MAJORITY OF WHITE MEN, LOOK AT BLACK WOMEN AS NEGRO BED WENCHES. This seems to hurt and strike a cord with every single black women on here and for this reason, they strike at me and attack me.
This is why i say, that the black women, who get defensive and upset, when i reveal this and the term i use to describe, how white men view them in actuality, black women feel rejected, because deep down, they really want the white man to want them, they will never admit to such a thing, their pride won’t allow for it.
So they do the next best thing, they get a man that is closest to white as possible, Latino for example and tout their partner around like they are the best thing, since sliced bread.
This is white supremacy at its best, ITS THE ANYTHING BUT BLACK WILL DO, mentality.
These black women, want long, straight hair and light eyes, just like the white woman, why do you think the majority of black women wear weeves, blue,green and grey contact lenses? They are trying to cover up their blackness, the best they can, so they can look attractive to the white man.
So they marry a none black so they can live, through their child and play in their hair and marvel at their light, bright and two shades from white, skin complexion.
The less black their image, the more they can get the attention of the white man. That’s why you see these “black barbie” type black women out there, they look so fake, just like those fake white women that have fake boobs and lips and butts. This is how the majority of white men, like black women to look, not a natural black women with beautiful puffy hair and a curvacious body, they want a skinny black woman with fake boobs and big booty.
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Sondis,
Puhlease, you know the vast majority of Black women do NOT want White men to want them and know the real deal! I believe some have bought into White supremacy though and are delusional about White men, just as some Black men are delusional about White women.
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I think why some Black women may not take you seriously is that you only comment on Black women, which sorta raises my flag as well. I mention in my posts always about black men AND women, you should probably do the same or else it may make some black women think you are only against black women dating IR and that you have a special bone to pick about that.
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“Alicia
Sondis,
Puhlease, you know the vast majority of Black women do NOT want White men to want them and know the real deal! I believe some have bought into White supremacy though and are delusional about White men, just as some Black men are delusional about White women.”
I didn’t say anything about The majority of black women anything, you assumed and projected that. I said what i said, don’t put words into my mouth.
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Sondis, that first reply was to you, not Abagond.
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@v8driver
Irish ha? Are you a Sullivan/O’Sullivan? As in, Tom Hanks, “Road to Perdition?”
@ BR
Commenting on one of your posts a few posts back. I get what you’re saying. I think as far as sexual relationships between BW/WM, when people question it, what they’re getting at is, “are you having a strictly lustful relationship with a BW because she’s a BW, where you’d never have a committed relationship with a BW, in the same way one would a WW.”
I did not realise relationships between BW/WM or just non BM, in general, were so controversial in the US. They’re quite common in the UK, so my perspective will not be one of such suspicion. The difference is pretty interesting to me. When I lived in Atlanta, I was surprised by the social segregation between White and Black. In the UK, we tend to mingle a lot more, at school, in our neigborhoods, in social circles. So the dynamic I know of is pretty far off from others, here. But come to think of it, that may also be down to the fact that I grew up in the city, as well.
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Hi, EbonyMonroe…first, I am following the elaborated discussion by you and Adonis, and, you both are young well educated and making great points, and I need to listen to what is the discusion between young black men and women , and that is the discusion you all are having…
Yeah, 28 years in Brazil is a very differant situation, yet, with many of the same conditions as the USA , if not worse on some things, like media , but , not the same political discussion on interracial relationships…which is why Im trying to point out the origins…and, after Abagond challenged me to find these origins, which I knew, because I lived through them , finding them on the internet is painful , painful to read all the olkd memories , that so much was stuffed inside, to just try to keep moving on…there was so much “that doesnt seem right for me , but , its for the black Civil Rights Movement, so hold it in”, of course, tap, Armstrong and interracial dogmas, were things I didnt submit to
But, its actualy frightening how much info corraborating exactly what Im saying is out there…but, do we really want to go down that rabbit hole? Because it is incriminasting and undermines many trends you see disscussed on this blog on other threads…I keep bumping into exactly the subject abagond thinks is idiotic to comment on and is derailing, and it aint tap…its the other, and if i mention it, my comment goes into moderation…but yet, there it is..right next to the other agendas, as a referance point by the people who were putting out these agendas on the militant wing of the black nationalist parties…so, hey, better to take the blue pill, because it isnt pretty to take the red..I dont really want to go back and look at it too closely, because reading all those things I knew about and experianced, takes an emotional toll..
but, answering your statement, for sure,if a white person has a double standard, that is something to have an antenna up for…I beleive very much, if a black person has any uncomfortability about being in a relationship with a white person, for these type concerns, they shouldnt do it..
It takes some confidence ans self knowledge and knowledge of the possible flags of racism, to really be dating interracialy, unless of course , those people who do it on impulse, and , they will have to accept the consequences…I dont know what the fuss is, people who make bad desicians will suffer consequences
But, I think there has to be room for lustful relationships, impulsive and sexualy motivated , with out double standards, that falls under consenting sex by two adults
I dont know why the interracial sexual encounter have to be held to higher standfards than regular relationships…past having good advice on how to spot racism…but, heck most white people’s real problem is they just arnt culturaly in tune with Afro diasporic culture…but, there are black people who dont want to be into black culture, and gravatate to white culture , with out nescasarily being colorised…of course that exists too
For me, its extremly complex tp break down and analyse each persob’s real inside motivations to get together…even intra racialy..yet, there is so much pseudo psycho analysing…and rhetoric, rhetoric from the past, even if the people using it dont know it…the problem is, Ive seen the film..but you and Adonis, are taking on a more fresh aproach, I think…with of course some disagreements
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trying to answer you, Ebonymonroe
Abagond, are my comments going into moderation because of misspellings?
I dont see what is wrong with my last statement except the keyboard is misspelling more than I normaly do…I hope the comment in nmoderation gets on
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Ill try a shorter answer, EbonyMonroe, Ive been enjoying the disscusion you and Adonis are having, you both represent young intelligent black men and women , having the discusion nescasary to have , and you both make good points, as well as disagreeing about others
About what you said, of course if a white man is having those double standards, a black woman should dump him, unless she is getting something else she wants out of it
But, I think there needs to be a space for interracial couples to have mutualy consenting sex by adults , also, like any other couples ,they shouldnt have to be heldup to any higher standards than anyone else…except of course , with advice on how to spot racism…
There are so many complex factors why people get together anyway, even intra racialy, that its hard to just pseudo psycho analyse people from a distance …bottom line , people will suffer consequences if they make a wrong desician , so, why should people judge them from a distance when they dont even know them
I definitly beleive if black people are uncomfortable about issues with white people they shouldnt try interracial relationships, but they shouldnt judge other people they dont know
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@BR
Yes, I agree. As long as there isn’t a double standard in a non platonic relationship between a BM WM, in comparison to a WW WM relationship, then holding it (BW/WM) to a higher standard, is, in essence, just as much, a double standard.
On your other point, I also see where you’re coming from. There were ideologies in militant Black movements that ended up being incorporated into modern Black culture, that is too opressive towards the rightful freedom people should have, to be with who they want to be with. I think there are always a number of popular pockets of thought, in terms of socially acceptable ideas, that have origins we are unaware of, but become slightly diluted, or take on a new shape, and are absorbed into present worldviews, that are culturally relative and widely acceptable community views. I get what you’re saying. It goes without saying that judgements have roots, just as much as, say stereotypes have their roots.
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@ peanut
You seem at a loss,sometimes defiant,sometimes subdued but I think that you should go with how you feel and not be swayed by others, a post here recently made claims that black women are the bottom of the list when it comes to white men,what he failed to say is that most white women choose white men which means the black men that get a white women do so because they are the second option-there are white women who will never date a black man for personal reasons and because he is not among her social circles etc
What I want to state is that many black men like to make black women feel like the only option they have is black men,they do this by telling you,you are the undesirables among many other race men:its a classic way to keep black women exactly where they want you..even at times creating the illusion that you are not accepted by other men-making you feel ugly.
The fact is there are many white men who will date black women/marry them quicker than your own black men do and bring up their kids with you.
Its a trend that is happening and its growing……
but realize that white men are not the only option.
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Some of the most racist comments that I have seen towards black women which was absolutely disgusting have not been from racist white men but black men and biracial men….and these type men would talk of love for other race women.
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To Sondis:
I also feel, that most black women, compare white men to black men and use a white man as a measuring tool and say, “white men are more of a catch, then black men, being white men are more educated, earn more money and came from money” so i will date only white men.
The marriage patterns in the US indicate a different story for the most part. When Black women marry.. they predominantly marry Black men. Looking at the out marriage rate (by ethnicity and race) for newlyweds in the past 10 years we see that only 9.3%of the Black women marry out compared to 23.6% of the Black men. Black women marry out at lowest rate for any group in the study. (Even lower than the rates for White men and women)
See page 9 for the data in the link below:
Click to access SDT-Intermarriage-II.pdf
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Sondis:
The fact that this white man has felonies and just got out of prison and has a alcohol problem, shows his agenda for dating black women, being that NO WHITE WOMEN WANT HIM AND WOULD JUDGE HIM BASED ON HIS CRIMINAL HISTORY!
Sondis.. I know White guys with criminal records, drug problems, alcohol problems, or all three combined… who get chased by White women. Hell there is even a cottage industry for White woman on this issue:
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I just saw a comment by TrojanPam on “white woman’s tears” that im answering here to not be off topic :
Just saw your comment, TrojanPam…this is a blog, a person makes a comment , and anyone can make an opinion about that comment..
If you think Im a white supremist, you wouldnt know a real white supremast if he was under your nose..my god…”racist” on this blog is the lowest commercial value on the market..it doesnt mean anything anymore..its lost its meaning because it is just spewed out anytime, anywhere someone doesnt lock step
and anti interracial drek in 2013 , is pathetic, and its a tired film ive seen before , with tired rhetoric , and the people who put out this anti interracial sex with white people, back in the 60’s, were also spouting marxism, and supporting regimes that practiced mass eliminations and flawed beaurocratic mandates that killed millions of other lives
this anti interracial sex rhetoric is built on a foundation of a soft turd, and trojanPam, if you were able to go back and hang with the people who formulated this rhetoric you are spewing, you might not feel so comfortable…
Since I first encountered this rhetoric, thought it was bogus and buried it like a can of worms, there have been autobiographies , and , admisions from the parties themselves involved, that actualy go into much more depth of how flawed this rhetoric was, and the kind of inner turmoil and conflict that accompanied these flawed political agendas about interracial sex , was extremly self destructive and debilitating to the people involved
stop hiding behind rhetorical cliches, TrojanPam, you have every right to formulate your personal defences against white racism and make your own personal choices, but your mandates against interracial sex demand to be challenged
and Im not dogging your every statement, but you are wallowing in anti racial sex cliches, dogma , and rhetoric
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@ Peanut, 100% agreed. Thank you for the article.
That word is a slur, not unlike the word “whore” in the way it’s intended to rub the salt in, and condemn.
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@peanut
I agree. I also see it as a way of guilting individuals or making them feel bad about who they choose to be with.
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Peanut,
I agree. It is a nasty term and has been abused so much precisely because it is so nasty and is not moderated (in that ignorant comment its user addressed to you, I counted the term ‘mandingo’ only once, and it was tossed in simply for the appearance sake, while *NBW* was used at least 6 times alone in one hateful rant).
In my opinion, it should be a moderated word, and its most loving user cansimply grind his eternally dull and rusted axe regarding BW/WM romantic pairings or, more notably, sucessful Black career women in WM run corporate America, by utilizing less offensive terms.
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Peanut, great point, a rhetorical dogmad expresion , only provoking negative connotations about an individual black woman’s choice…people will asume a black woman is in an abusive relationship with out even knowing her
It just drops a fog of automatic assumtions , and influences people to automaticly peg a black woman…there are the equal eqivilant for the black men also, who get pegged and acused…celebrities being center stage
its interesting, in the information I came across on the origins of this rhetorical dogma..black men and black women , serious black activists, both had been to jail and beat by police, and were , in seperate cases and seperate areas, banned or dissmissed, for being with a white person at black activist meetings back then
there are origins for this dogma and it can be scrutinised and corrected
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By the way, I need to clarify, and ive said it before, white antiinterracial sex attitudes are the worst of all and they invented it…
black militants in the 60’s didnt go killing and lynching people for it
but , they have alienated . devided, and said harsh things about black people who interracialy had sex with white people, meaning, in relationships with white people
the fall out from this rhetoric has taken a toll on the black diologue, it gives me no pleasure to point this out, it has nothing to do with what i say, the sad truth is all too on display by thread after thead, even other threads not about it get inundated with the non stop two towers of inferno…raging from blog to blog…
is this really a good thing? or is it debilitating…does it actualy leave vulnerability to fighting white racism, by leaving the flank open for them to attack?
i actualy think black love between men and women would grow even more if this yoke was lifted
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@BR, although it is making a small comeback among some people,including some jazz musicians, you don’t see a lot of young present day Jewish musicians or fans getting into Klezmer music, although that is something closely associated with their heritage. I’m not part of that community although I enjoy that music so I can’t say for sure why that is. I would bet that at least part (however small) of the reason is that in 2013 relatively few Jewish people have interest in looking, sounding or dressing like they just walked out of a 1919 shtetl or listening to the music common to that time. It is the EXACT same process going on with Armstrong. I think we are starting to repeat ourselves.
Times change. Max Roach, RIP was a black nationalist militant and worked with various modern musicians including rap artists up until his death. I LOVE his music and was once fortunate enough to see him play back in the seventies. That said though how popular was he among the young black community past 1975 or so? I would bet not very. And it certainly wasn’t because of his politics. Young people, especially young black people, respond to the music of their times. As I said I think you are underplaying the social nature of music.
As a blues/jazz fan it is a source of frustration and amazement to me that while young whites have embraced traditional White American music (country) and made it a continuing viable art form, young blacks have generally eschewed traditional Black American music (blues and jazz) both as performers and consumers. The why is a longer question but it has to do both with black culture placing a MUCH higher premium on newness/originality AND with the fact that with few exceptions Black Americans don’t have anything to feel nostalgic about. Any music which has the unpleasant connotation of “dancing for white people” was going out of style as early as the forties.
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This is a choice. This man was not forced to do this. It is possible to enjoy someone’s artistry, be sympathetic to the social conditions under which he lived, and still criticize the man or decide to make different choices for yourself.
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I don’t think most hostility towards IR marriage -on this board BM/WW IR marriage- comes from any sort of political stance, though obviously that’s true for some. As I said before the more that anybody is getting their own business right, the less they are worried about whose mule is kicking in someone else’s stall.
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Last thing for now. It should be pointed out that whatever their public image might have been FWIW the policy of the Black Panthers was quite progressive socially. They supported gay rights and women’s liberation. I don’t think they took a position one way or the other on IRR’s. Their ten point program made no mention of IRRs. The Panthers were vociferously against what they called “porkchop nationalism”, which meant seizing on blackness tropes, without seeking to make any change in the status of the people. So whatever new anti-IRR feelings came out of the sixties I don’t think we can lay that at the Panthers’ feet.
And since IRR have only increased since the sixties I think that any focus on sixties rhetoric as key factors in explaining today’s events doesn’t work.
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After viewing the movie 12 years a slave, I am feeling some kind of way about that. I noticed that word had been thrown around a lot. I don’t care for it, and it’s disrespectful to the ancestors, that had to live through such an ordeal.
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Shady, again, I apreciete your diologue…in a documentary I saw, it was Max himself telling how be bop drumming was influenced by tap dancers dropping their heels…and ive heard it from tappers in docus…
Shady, I think we have to inderstand the differance from style trends moving on, and actualy putting negative connotations on black culture and artists..and that is what happened..it took Wynton, in the ken burns docu to right the wrong done to Armstrong..the fact Wynton had to do that speaks undeniably to the fact that these put downs were a reality that should be corrected..its one thing to not want to check out the past, as long if that person changes his mind, he could find in the black diologue a huge positive referance to one of black americas biggest contributors to American music history, instead of a negative connotation inthe black diologue that Armstrong was an uncle tom
The photo wont come up on myh computor, but , I assume, correct me if Im wrong, its a referance to one of the steryotype charactors
Im glad you brought thatr up, if that was your point
I got the history of Juba, and the fact that he wore cork because all black artists were forced to wear cork, to entertain for the white man, from a great page with various steryotypes from the past…going into their history…I lost the page so i cant link it
but, what is blatently apherant and fascinating , is that these early steryotypes, the Jim crow, etc is that these are white abherations of what they think black culture is…this isnt black peoples idea..this is the earliast looks at how white people perceive black culture , mock it, then copy it, then sell it
the banjo is an african instrument, is all that country pickin just the early examples of southern whites being fasinated with black culture, copying it and abherating it as their own..like rock music of today?
I totaly blame the white people, it is on them..are we going to castigate master Juba, for inventing a magnificant art form and, because of the white racism, he has to put on cork and perform?
Sure, as vaudeville came in, and there was some stock tap dancer coming out in cork, probably doing an inferior version of tap, these steryotypes were looked at, i dont think anyone in the 40’s would doubt the depth of the men and women I brought in in that tap clip…
I mean i think we can all agree those artists are of the highest order
and, its going to take a black voice to change it, im just pointing out the truth..a black voice is going to have to bring the light and change..tap needs to be in the black conciousness diologue in a vwery positive light…white abherations of what black culture is has to be scrutunised..and that sure is happening today…its ongoing…that didnt stop..interest in tap did..with some exceptions
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@ Shady_Grady
You make an excellent point.
However, I believe you are referring to the Ashkenazim (Jews of Central and Eastern Europe). It’s my feeling, and experience, that the Sephardim (Jews of Spain and Portugal, and the Near East) are more “embracing” of our musical heritage. This is the heritage of my father’s mother, Turkish Sephardi.
The most well-known modern exponent of Ladino Jewish music is Yasmin Levy, she mixes flamenco and Persian styles into traditional elements.
(http://www.last.fm/music/Yasmin+Levy/+videos/+1-21jLaIX2kN0)
Yasmin Levy duetting with Concha Buika, a Spanish singer of Guinean heritage:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fy-BGeiZ-M)
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@ Shady_Grady, my comment to you about Sephardi music is on moderation.
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Also, Shady, I also agree its some people who have these political dogma aproaches from the past, I absolutly dont think that is the unified opinion on this blog, and especialy its not abagonds opinion
and, I actualy support Sondis, TrojanPam, Kiwi, and anyone here who has given these opinions about anti interracial sex , intheir battle against white racism…and they all have valid points against white racism..and i would never question their personal desician to not want to be with a white person
but, when these generalised steryotypes, resentments at couples they dont even know, actual mandates and advice to not be in bed with white people, absolute put downs and slurs of black people in relationships along with pseudo pshychoanalyysing, and even put downs of staunch anti white racists, only for questioning the logic…well. my 40 years if interracial relationships, with a 5 year relationship with a white woman in the middle puts me in an obligation to counter these opinions…i dont have a choice, or just hold it in and let it cause insecurity…Im not an insecure person
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I just have to ask, how are tap dancing and jazz music related to interracial relationships? I really would appreciate an explanation. These topics of tap dancing and jazz music seem incongruent with the topic of interracial relationships. Just asking a question.
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@ Kiwi
True, I have also seen this kind of behaviour from some white women when they are around East Asian men. In recollecting at least 2 occasions, the women in question behaved as if they were doing the men a massive favour because the’d choose to bravely bore the embarrassment of being with these guys!
I remember overheard to 3 young women discussing a couple of the Chinese doctors that they were working with. Now, these men were both handsome and well-built, as well as being very nice individuals — so, rather date-able.
What I overheard (they didn’t notice me — some darkie waiting in the waiting room obviously, lol) was on the lines of:
“Oh, I’d have to DO him for a few months to get what I could out of him, but I wouldn’t want anyone to see me with him. Can you imagine if my mum so me with THAT!”
The women also made references to the body hair and genitals of these men, and concluded the doctors were probably and mostly likely gay anyway if they didn’t come onto these women! It sounded pretty cynical.
These women, from what I could gather, simply felt that as white women, they were first choice of ALL men of ANY ethnicity, and were “entitled” to have these men in the way they wanted.
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@ Kiwi — typos:
*bravely bear
*if my mum saw…
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@ BR & Shady Grady
I think there are many issues relating to this topic, and issues WITHIN the Black community that are more complicated than 60’s militant Black political rhetoric or “the have nots, moaning about the haves.” Oftentimes, when members of the Black community are voicing concern over the championing of Blacks marrying out, over Blacks marrying in, they’re not being anti White, they’re being pro Black.
The issues that members of the Black community have, are usually related to motives, not interracial unions founded love. It is part of a greater issue in the Black community that shows itself in BW hate speakers on youtube, like Tommy Sotomayor, or the anti BM speech of BWE. It’s pervasive across the online space, it shows up on this blog, and even this very thread. Twitter, which has found a great stronghold in the Black community, is pervasive with anti BW speech. It shows up in Black spaces because it’s very much exists in the Black community. The foundation of the issue cannot be divorced from it, but it’s not about interracial love/relationships, it’s the larger narrative of White supremacy, being addressed. It’s wrong when people make assumptions, and as a result, throw personal attacks at individuals in interracial reunions, I don’t agree with that, at all. But, I must respectfully disagree with the idea that 60’s militant Black propaganda and those who don’t have their business right, and in turn, are overly concerned others’ business, is somewhat trivializing it.
Abagond has done a number of posts on both racism and internalized racism, so it goes without saying that these points (and moreso the latter), will come up during these discussions.
Side note: (random general observation); when Abagond writes about White racism, White people get offended, complain, and it’s trivialized. When the Black community discusses internalized racism, it is, again, trivialized. I fear there is no real licence to freely discuss these subjects, and that is quite problematic.
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@MB,
I admit, so am I, as well as Chairman Mao’s failed social economic policies.
Maybe we could play a game – throw out 2 random topics and try to link them up somehow. I am sure there is a relationship between Mount Rushmore and Mitochondrial DNA if I think hard enough. Same with blockbusting and the Tainos or Sundown towns and tribal nudity. 😛
But, I am afraid that you might get more than what you bargained for — a very long-winded explanation that will leave you even more perplexed than when you started. 😛 😛 😛
Even better — a guest post limited to 500 words explaining exactly how interracial relationships, tap dancing, jazz music and the Great Leap Forward are all related. At least it won’t be too long-winded!
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@jefe : LOL!
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Just reread my comment I posted earlier in reference to the 12 years a slave, the word I was referring to was Negro Bed wench, I had to give that some thought and reflection without doing a spoiler alert but that word is disrespectful to the ancestors who had to endure this, and I was on my bookshelf, The book Celia, A, Slave which is also a true story of Celia Newsome, who killed her master, in self defense. Maybe we need to remember the ancestors who endured this hell. After seeing the film and reading excerpts from the book. Poor Celia, Newsome was executed. Abagond, you should do a post on Celia Newsome. Yes, that negro bed wench foolishness has got to go.
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The NBW word is disrespectful to the ancestors. Need to do a post on Celia, A, Slave. By Melton A. Mclaurin. It’s easy to read and very small book.
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Peanut, Abagond banned the NBW term in comments section, I dont know if you saw that
Jefe, Ive asked you 4 times now to explain what you mean by “black american culture is weak…and you have ducked it
but, Im glad to go over this again , and Ill answer you, Mary, and EbonyMonroe in these next posts
but here is an article about tap saying straight up, by the 60’s tap was not popular in the black comunity because it was looked on as offensive
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-179796.html
You heard sondis say”‘tapdancing , shucking and jiving for the white man.”..where do you think he got that rhetorical phrase?
Ill ask you another question, before the 60’s, the black struggle and jewish struggle were arm and arm…after it wasnt…why do you think that was?
do you all have any idea how things changed like day to night from the mid 60’s to the late 60’s?
I have gone in great detail on how Wynton Marsalis , in the Ken Burns docu, refuted the 60’s black nationalist notion Armstrong was an uncle tom…do any of you doubt that happened? I mean its fact…this is not a figment of my imagination
do any of you doubt that both black men and black women on seperate occasions , who were deep into the activist movement were bared from black activist meetings because they were with white people?
Do you doubt that the Black Panthers demanded their women to “be loyal to their black men..’ even though in their behind the scenes politics,Elaine Brown. Newton’s woman, sometimes, slept with a white man to get money for the Panthers ?
I would also ask, now that ive hooked tap dance up with folklorico dance in Brazil, do you still find it offensive, or do you see the art form is seperate from the minstrel shows where white people made them wear cork and adopt negative steryotypes, and is a high art form of Afro diasporic dance?
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wiki on Huey Newton
“Inspired by Mao Zedong’s advice to revolutionaries in The Little Red Book, Newton called on the Panthers to “serve the people” “
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Eldridge Cleaver himself on his one time ties to marxism
http://www.earthlight.org/2004/essay50_neale.html
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Mary, what other evidence do you need that much of the rheteric coming from the people on here , who are anti interracial, is directly from a militant position, put out that was adapted in various areas, that could have several fontes, the Panthers, SNCC, the tap dancing critique sounds like it was hatched in a college dorm..for sure there might have been intellectual black statements against minstrel shows before, but the straight up “tap is shucking and jiving for the white man” is from the 60’s..I was aware when this and other strange mandates started coming on the scene…
You see mao was absolutly part of this political agenda , and, sorry, marxism is the a pariah on mankind..its flawed to make it part of your agenda
so dont you see, the black woman having to be loyal, the black man barred from an activist meeting , for being with a white woman, are products of a militant political agenda that was flawed…but I didnt say everything in the militant agenda was flawed…please get I said that
but those things are absolutly flawed
You cant deny the armstrong thing, its in the Burns docu..i mean , what more proof do you need, Mary?
the Nation of Islam didnt allow interracial relations back then, and the seperists like Garvey…but they were fringe, and could have influenced the nationalists…everything the militants put out had earkiar seeds, like with Fannon, they read him…
b ut, outside of white racists, and these things I mentioned, where were black people banned from being with other black people because they were with a white person before the 60’s? I lived through the change, it was dramatic…
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@ BR: Thanks for clearing all that up.
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EbonyMonroe, Ive been trying very hard to clarify that, any black people having reservations of being with white people, because of the horrible white racist past and current racism, is differant than just putting a mandate on telling black people , or just POC to stay out of bed with white people
and, the arguments used on here by the anti interracial sex people, is just chock full of the 60’s black nationalist militant wing of the civil Rights Movement..how do i know? I was there..I have seen this rhetoric back then and it is just regurgitated in2013..and, getting painfully obvious, people dont even realise it
I dont think you are getting what Im saying…a group of black people can get together, and have agreementgs about the white racist system now, the slave masters of the past, their personal colorisation issues, and agree to not have an interracial relationship with a white person
but they have no right to psycho analyse from a distance, people they dont even know…what their choices should be,how they are suposed to view society they live in…
whatr right has anyone got to pass judgement on any black woman I went out with? what right have they got to steryotype her, generalise about her , or anything
and , colorisation is real, but you cant read someone elses mind to know their colorisation issues…its like me, my black wife, our mixed race kid, pass a black TSA woman in Ohara airport in chicago, she sees us , my son has a breif case and suit and tie , at 10 years old, and she cracks..’Bryon Gumble”…she is thinkingh since he is being raised in amixed race artmosphere, he is colorised
wrong, he was being James Bond…its exactly that kind of wrong headed thinking that I dont just trust any psycho analysis coming down the pipe
yes, those things i mentioned coming out of the militant wing of black nationalists, were flawed, and they are together , mao is relevant to anti interracial sex attitudes in this context…they were wrong and should be jetisoned
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Mary, if you have any doubts about this and need any more information, please let me know,
whether anyone disagrees with me or not, I think we can agree, the discusion on anti interracial sex in the black diologue is huge, and out of proportion to other things that are more important for the struggle
Is it really healthy? would it make a dent in white racism if people of color stopped having sex with white people?
I love black love, and interracial love and freedom of choice, and to fight white racism
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Abagond announced the banning of the *NBW* term in the Comment Policy section.
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@BR: I don’t have an issue with people dating interracially. It is not my place to police and judge those that choose this type of relationship.
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Peanut, and Mary, I absolutly never got either of you were anti interracial relationships, but , beleive in black love, like I do too
Peanut , you are also one of the staunch anti white racists, as are you Mary
http://masterjuba.com/
Look at this man , this wonderful black American innovator (his picture is at the bottom)
You know that face, you can see his determination, force of will, and, you know him, he was in the middle of the deep struggle of slavery into freedom, of the most humiliating, and threatening times of the history of your great , great grandparents (black american descendants), his story is the story of having to wear cork to be able to perform in front of white people, but, his innovation and art, enabled him to rise to the leval of abandoning the cork…and his followers after that, the ones in the clip I brought in, have truly seperated that art from the minstrel shows and white abherations of what they thought black people acted like, and , seeing a folkloric group from Brazil, have a dance that seems to eerily parralel it, and, there are other dances that stomp the mud to make bricks, well that certainly should indicate it isnt a steryotype for white people, but an afro diasporic culture , well worth documenting and preserving..
Ill tell you hook me up with some out of the box forward thinking black men and women, and ,what id really like to do is document as many Afro diasporic drum dances as I could, and their histories, and struggle, and then go on to prove that the genius that the ancient black Africans gave us , that spread into the diaspora, dominating the cultures black African slaves were brought to, is nothing short of an organic expresion of fractal concepts…with the goal to turn off the thinking brain and get in touch with intuition and the sub concious, where scientists are now saying is our dominant force
work like Asian American Dr Charles Limb is doing (goggle his name and “jazz”), to show improvisation in jazz opens certain centers in the brain that help the person be more creative
these treasures are valuable…I am humbled to get the message passed to me…but these art forms are delicate, the first to be stomped on with political agendas, you all know only to well that…I do see far too much slow disapearing of Afro diasporic cultures
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@pay it forward, @peanut, @sharina, @Bulanik
NBW term applies to black women who aid & abet WHITE SUPREMACY, not to successful black women or black women who are in romantic relationships with WHITE MEN.
The NBW just happens to be mostly black feminists, lesbians or black women who date & marry white men.
Just so we clear.
The problem is with women like you @peanut, you refuse to acknowledge & criticize the worst of black women (NBW, hoodrats, black feminists, etc) & then when black men are looking for a wife, since you did not distance yourself from the f-ckery & dysfunction, we rightly assume you are as messed up as a lot of the dysfunctional BW we highlight.
Good day
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@Adonis
That was my original idea of what the term stood for, but as have been seen there are some people who use it in a derogatory manner.
When it was used by sondis, I don’t think it was meant as you described seeing as people it was directed at fight tooth and nail on this blog against white supremacy.
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@BR
I understand. We’re pretty much in agreement.
@Adonis
You as a BM have the right to support and engage in BW hate speech like that of Tommy Sotomayor. In the same way, BW have the right to speak out about racism and racialized misogyny, (Black feminism). Bell Hooks is not a BDWCH, she’s spoken up for BM’s rights just as much as she has spoken out about the oppression BW face as double minorities. No disrespect, but post after posts, you prove why Black feminism is relevant.
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abagond, my comment is still in limbo, is this by design?
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@ Sondis:
My bad:
@ Sondis: Comment deleted for use of a slur.
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Cool, let me take a peek. ^_^
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@EbonyMonroe @Peanut
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2013/10/black-boys-find-easier-integrate-suburban-schools-black-girls/comment-page-3/#comments
Even when the conversation isn’t directly about IR dating, BW bring it up to pout.
& @EbonyMonroe you still haven’t listed the tangible accomplishments of self-identified black feminists. A law, some monetary benefits for black women, nothing in the US.
WTH are black feminists accomplishing in the UK?
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@Adonis
As I said, I don’t wish to speak with you anymore. And I have already mentioned in our debate that Black feminism found its biggest strength as an academic corrective. Meaning, much of the academia regarding BM and BW was corrected by Black feminists. I’m sure you have the capacity to imagine how ignorant education has been in the Western world when it comes to the African diaspora, especially in the past.
Side note: Abagond did a post using a section of Bell Hooks’ writings. The brotha seemed to find her material/study/contributions to the Black community, quite useful. Her writings were useful for the conversation on this blog, as a study, as talking point, about Black love and how it’s portrayed in the media. As I’ve mentioned, when someone like Madonna is throwing out work with racist overtones, Black feminists are the ones calling her out on it. Challenging our comfort, complacency, and breaking down the images, the wording, appropriation, and the degradation, that calls for critical thinking. Especially when it’s woman to woman, and especially when it’s subtle.
What does your hatred for Black women and girls do? What does it do for you when you say a 13 yr old virgin Black girl, who was violently g@ngraped, deserved it, because she was a sl-t, posing as a good woman, and that you hope you never have to deal with a girl like that? A girl who had no name in the article, and no face, all we were told was that she was Black, female 13 a virgin, and was petrified, and that was enough for you to come to the conclusion that she deserved it, that the child was a sl-t. What does that do for you? What does it do for the Black community when your ringleader Tommy Sotomayor makes a video saying Trayvon Martin deserved it and calling his mother a hair hatted hooligan? That’s right, nothing.
Well, as far as Black feminism, it’s not a stretch to see how this attitude rears its head in our community for Black girls. It’s not a stretch to pin point that these ideas of Black girls being worthless commodities, which stems from colonialized thought and White supremacist doctrine. We know that because Black feminism named it for us. What does it do for the community when you participate in the degradation of your own community? Nothing. What did Black feminism do? It diagnosed it. When Black men are only allowed to express themselves through hyper-masculine posturing, to translate as entertainment for the masses, under the guise of “cool,” when they’re only depicted, and allowed to see themselves as violent, thuggish, aggressive, misogynistic; never as whole human beings, just as watered down versions of stereotypes like the movie “Birth of a nation,” as though they’re not human beings, but walking, talking “threats,” yes, this mirror projected onto BM is extremely oppressive and suffocating.
It affects the way we see ourselves, the way we’re viewed, our understanding of what it means to be Black; it affects the way we are treated (in job opportunities, for example), it affects the way we view each other; which you are evidence of.
Black feminists are campaigning about the war on drugs, now. They were fighting alongside Black men, while simultaneously campaigning for their rights as women, and that’s just fact. What is the worth of something that challenged and changed an entire discourse of a people group (the Black community), in academia and popular culture? What is the worth of a movement that pushed for BW when they were still lawfully unrapable in the south through the 70’s, and if I’m not mistaken, even into the 80’s? What’s the worth of the changes in how the next generation in the Black community (my children, grandchildren, descendants), will learn about themselves?
Man, I don’t know how to measure it for someone like you. We even measure the value of BM and BW, and their lives, dignity, human rights, and well being, completely differently. We don’t even speak the same language, so how can I say?
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Hispanic isn’t a race category but Mestizo or Native American is.
And that’s what most Hispanics fall under.
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@v-4
According to the last bit of paperwork I filled out, those are not considered a race either. Though I like others believe them to be.
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A-ha. Just read an article where they are changing or fixing the categorization of race, so the outdated paper work categorizing race will be no more.
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“Sharina
@Adonis
That was my original idea of what the term stood for, but as have been seen there are some people who use it in a derogatory manner.
When it was used by Sondis, I don’t think it was meant as you described seeing as people it was directed at fight tooth and nail on this blog against white supremacy.”
You thought wrong as usual. You know what they say when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself.
Don’t tell others, what you THINK i mean.
The definition that Adonis gave is the correct one, that i myself believe to be true.
Let this be the last time you speak my name.
abagond, i am asking you to tell Sharina to cease from speaking my name and lying about what it is, she wants people to think i mean. ( Projection )
Sharina, you and others have made the grave mistake of thinking, i am here to be liked. I see the popularity contest that you and others are on here for and i am not here for this purpose.
Most black people on this blog, are only here to, “not offend anyone” “not make any trouble” and to “keep things the way they are”.
This is why all the white men, come to black women’s support on here, when a black man is being attacked! I see it…i get it…I’m prepared for it!
Do you think i don’t know how white supremacy, really works? ha! I knew the majority of black women, would not like me, when i really started to speak my position on how some black women and black men, are double agents for the white man.
I am real to the core, i am not concerned with anyone’s “feelings” when it comes to exposing the truth, if it means exposing black men and women, so be it, if they are traitors, they are no use for black people and they can side with the white man and parish with them, when everything is said and done.
I am here to help educate and connect with, like minded black and brown and other minority people, that are not afraid to “offend” black,white or brown people by speaking the TRUTH about racist white people and their promotion of white supremacy and the sell out, house N3gros and N3gresses that support it!.
Adonis,abagond,brothaworlf,Trojanpam,Ebonymonroe,stacks,deepdkchocolate, jefe, Kiwi are the only few and i may have missed others, sorry if i can’t remember your nicks at the moment, that seems to be on the real and not obsessed with being, “popular” and “liked” or would disassociate themselves with someone on this blog, because someone they talk too, doesn’t like what another poster says or believes.
I have seen a lot of black females, go from speaking to me every day, to not saying anything to me and its not because i am fussing with them, its because i was fussing with their, “friend”.
I don’t have to name off names, ( you know who you are ). Ask me if i care, i am just pointing out this to say, this is the reason why you and they are here, Not to uplift and support your own black people, you are here to participate in a popularity contest and to support white supremacy by fighting for your right to sleep with the white man!
Then turn around and say you’re pro-black and you love black men, yet don’t have a black husband or black man but a white man, white Hispanic, ect… I call you out and i expect the backlash and I’m up to challenge white supremacy, coming from black women on this blog.
This is my last comment, towards sharia, don’t not bother to respond back to me, i have nothing more to say to or about you. Just keep my name out of your mouth.
For those that once spoke to me but no longer, because i am not scared to “offend”, black women and men. ( you know who you are ) I am here to expose the truth, whither it offends white or black people,I DON’T CARE!
There have been, black women and men, sellouts as long as we have been in America, today is no different and they don’t like it, when a black person, calls them out!
This is what is happening on this blog, i call out the NBW, the uncle toms and the sell out, house N3gros and N3gresses, i get persecuted for it but its alright, i am willing to take on that burden as i feel it is worth its weight in gold, that the truth be told.
There seems to be only black women that attack black men on this blog, no black man has attacked me or Adonis, just black women and white men.
I am not surprised that black women are siding with white men on a black blog, owned and operated by a black man. I know, i am not the only black person that has noticed, the majority of black women on this blog, are always agreeing with white men and disagreeing with black men.
Like i said, white supremacy is on this very blog! The same black women that talk about white supremacy, support it by promoting white on black love over black on black love and then have the nerve to say, they love their black men!
They have Hispanic/white husbands or boyfriends or date them and claim they love black men! Pure hypocrisy!
There are lots of black women on this blog, that are double agents for the white man, you can see it the way all the white men, jump in and support all the black women, that are attacking black men.
White supremacy being supported by the majority of black women on this blog, they are just masquerading as pro-black women but in actuality, they are against their own black men and black people. wolves in sheep’s clothing i tell you!
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@Adonis,
That is hilarious how quickly the comments turned to pouting in the way you suggested especially when that dubious point they raised wasn’t even relevant to the article.
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@ks
But let the @ebonymonroe’s tell it, black women are over it.
But my point is, since you have a problem with it, don’t be in denial about it, and work through why you are mad. And get over yourself.
The same thing has to be said to the fake male American black nationalists who ain’t gonna put in no work to build any thriving black nation anywhere.
But mad as sh-t when they see a cute BW with a white dude.
I digress
Because the low-key truth, as an observation, and accurate opinion,
Most of the black men that date non-black women ARE NOT EVEN TOP-SHELF BLACK MEN. They are not the black men who are “in demand”.
It is just that, these black men are seen as back-up dyck or men they want attention from, but don’t plan on having anything serious with these black men. But be a tease.
Also, a lot of black women envy white women, and see white women as more valuable (black people in America, see through the perspectives of whites), so when the black dude is with her, his mating value raises in her eyes vs him being alone.
That article plus this thread, add credence to the opinion, that American black women take BM dating & marrying non-BW pretty hard.
Even though they have NO PLANS to improve their dating stock as a group.
Even though, these men are in the minority.
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EbonyMonroe, its interesting to note, these images , of a “black thug”, threatening and violent, (some actual rappers with that pose as the exception with something more in depth to say) were taken in by the corporate media , packaged , hyped, sold to the public and farm teamed out to Hollywood…
Now, i work with a rapper , hip hop and break dancers, so, I have immence respect for hip hop…and, actualy understand rap as an outlit for anger and telling stories about what happens around you
but this process , of steryotyping the thug rapper, accentuating the violence, threatening and attitudes towards women, is the same process as what happened in the minstrel shows, how white america mocked and mimicked and sold to the public these characatures of how they thought black people are
Look at the site of master Juba, how this exceptional talent, is forced to use cork to perform for white people, and look at the advertisement, with its really racist depiction…yet, the international critics of this time, the actual era of slavery, fawned over his exceptional talent…not unlike the reaction of an ancient Pharoh in Egypt, like 4000 years ago, being blown away from seeing a pygmy from central Africa dance and sing
Shady , you are exactly the type of black person who could change the negative connotations of tap dancing , in the black diologue, I beleive you can understand how to seperate the steryotype images the white man created as his impresion of black slaves in America, from the actual innovation of a black American culture, by an incredible black talented artist, and , you are one of the people who could start the flow to rescue this culture
Its interesting, master Juba , was forced to wear cork and hyped in a demeaning steryotyped mannor, but , his name is mystical in black American folklore…it even has a referance as that wonderful urb , that is slowly being accepted as having womderful medical benafits in our society
These histories are loaded with treasure and majic, and were horribly twisted into abherations by white people in a process that unravels itself all the way down into today
the real story of the lives and culture of people like master Juba (Juba actualy was in slave times, I missrepresented he crossed over into after slavery period), from that period and before, are lost stories…what were those stories in the 1600’s?1700’s? who were the master Jubas back then? what are the mystical stories and truth about black Americans back in that time? And then you have an Afro Brazilian folkloric group, rescuing the culture of slaves in Brazil in those times, like a living snapshot, showing an afro diasporic culture using techniques not unlike tap…and, you can only drop your jaw
and, Shady , I draw attention to the dilema of tap because the major effort to put tap into a negative context in the black diologue, and the rhetoric “tap dancing, shucking and jiving for the white man’, is right out of this period in the late 60’s, from actualy a small group of intelligencia , in the more militant activist sectors, that also brought you the antiinterracial sex attitudes , and affinities for Mao, and call for armed revolution and banning black people with white mates from activist meetings
Please understand, Im not condemming the black activist militant position outright, Im saying these flawed agendas ought to be reexamined and scrutinised
I think any political agenda put out in the black diologue ought to be held up to the scrutiny of:
“is this political agenda actualy hurting some black people in the process?”
is this anti interracial diologue in the black comunity actualy hurting black people in the process?
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Adonis:
“It is just that, these black men are seen as back-up dyck or men they want attention from, but don’t plan on having anything serious with these black men. But be a tease.”
Well said, let me add to this and say:
White men, feel the very same way, towards black women, so i will just put black women in place of black men:
“It is just that, these black women are seen as back-up Pu**y but don’t plan on having anything serious with these black women.”
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And, I can only watch Adonis and EbonyMonroe represent the diologue young intelligent black men and woman need to have, and wish they could work it out, they both have good points and its too bad the conflict has to be so dificult…political agendas from thje past do great damage
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“B. R.
And, I can only watch Adonis and EbonyMonroe represent the dialogue young intelligent black men and woman need to have, and wish they could work it out, they both have good points and its too bad the conflict has to be so dificult…political agendas from thje past do great damage”
Typical of a white person, always patronizing black people. why do white people, always feel a need to “compliment” black people, when they see that we are are ( contrary to what they always think about us ) are intelligent?
Black people do not need or want, white people to give us a “pat on the head” by saying, those two blacks are, “intelligent”.
A compliment is best left unsaid, let the words, speak for themselves.
white people do nothing but insult us, when they are so called, complimenting us. its always a back handed, insult.
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Sondis, you got it @ss backwards, Im lamenting the conflict from not being able to escape a yoke you wallow in…and it should be noted, Adonis has a differant position than you do
the referance to inteeligence is to point out they are both making good points, and, the conflict is because of a flawed political agenda just coming down and haunting us into today
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Lets get it straight , too, I dont patronise black people, I respect , have affinty and empathy for the struggle black people have gone through, a towering ackowledgement for the contribution black people have made to America , and, have had many black men and women as roll models in my life who i have looked up to and admired and have guided my through this confusing world…
whether I am accedpted on this blog by some people has absolutly no bearing in my real life about my relationship with the Afro diasporic experiance
Any one who thinks there is some kind of game of aliance going on here with white men and black women on this blog is pure unadaultered bs of the highest order
the truth is, some very upstanding anti white racists have been dragged throughnthe mud for questioning a flawed political agenda
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@BR
In regards to the distortion of Black culture in order to be better received by “mainstream” society. . . spot on. And you’re right, it has happened throughout numerous generations, through the many expressions of Black music and culture.
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FOR CRYING OUT LOUD ADONIS!
Are you a young teenager or something? I spent a good portion of, like, two entire posts not only acknowledging that many BW feel a sting over the rate at which BM marry out, but also voicing my theories as to why. I also posted the same negative complaints from BM who vent about BW dating/marrying interracially from that very same website (cluthmag). The only thing I said was that I believe more and more many BW (that I’ve come across) are starting to let it go, and that eventually, many more will get the messwge and put it to bed out of dignity.
You’re the one scattering your vents on BW all over this blog. You’re coming across obsessed over BW who you say you don’t care about, so much so that upon reading the story of a Black girl child being gangr@ped at 13 yrs old, you call her a sl-t, say she deserved it, and that you hope you never have to meet her. So much so that you believe BW should be beaten to death. I could go down the list of the atrocious, hateful statements you’ve said about BW, just in the short time we were debating. . .
BUT, HERE YOU ARE STILL FIXATED ON BW, SO WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND THOSE COMPLAINING BW? NOTHING
TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE AND GET OVER YOURSELF.
And if 75% of BW are married by 35, there is obviously nothing wrong with their dating stock. You and those BW are going on and on in your bitterness, for no reason. Just leave each other alone if you hate each other so much. That’s the logical thing to do.
Over 1/3 of BW in the UK marry out over here, the rest settle down with the brothas. Britain is quite racist, as your friend Alicia pointed out. If sistas over here are able to marry out when they’re not marrying brothas, I’m sure sistas in the US should be able to stop putting all their eggs in one basket and find mates outside their own community if their own men don’t want them. You go over there to the right and marry out Adonis, those sistas go over to the right and marry out, and then there will be no more fighting in this house, because you know mommy doesn’t like it when you fight. Go on now, make me proud, be a good boy.
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LMAO @Adonis & Ks
I read this article (the full length version) about two days ago. One of the issues mentioned was the fact that Black boys in predominantly White schools completely distance themselves, disconnect with, and ignore all Black girls, choosing instead to align with White female classmates during school and for after school social settings/gatherings.
Lol @you saying, it’s funny BW discussing the very thing addressed in the article, is irrelevant, when it was one of the key points. (Giggles.)
Peanut has said she’s experienced this, (if I remember rightly), and so have I; where the White girls bully you for being a Black girl and the Black boy joins in to stand by the White girls, and gets verbal and physical. And I’m sure many other BW/Gs who have attended majority White schools have, too, as is voiced in the comment section of the article.
Lol @so many of you going on and on about nbwnchs and then dismissing BW speaking on the BM equivalents. I’m telling you, I’m starting to believe we’ve really become two completely separate communities. We don’t relate to one another, we’ve no empathy for our similar experiences, we don’t know each other, at all. It’s like night and day. LMAOROTF!
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@Ebonymonroe
“We don’t relate to one another, we’ve no empathy for our similar experiences, we don’t know each other, at all.”—They know us….when they need support for some thing they consider an injustice. ROFL
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@Sondis
“Don’t tell others, what you THINK i mean.”—Last I check this is a public forum so I am free to voice what I think when I think it all day everyday. 🙂
Secondly you have no qualms with assuming and making up stuff and what I think so I find it masterfully funny how you react when it is done to you.
“The definition that Adonis gave is the correct one, that i myself believe to be true.”—Do point to where I said it was the wrong one? I just said that what you say tells a different story.
“abagond, i am asking you to tell Sharina to cease from speaking my name and lying about what it is, she wants people to think i mean.”—Sorry but that is not how projection works. I never use those derogatory terms so how would I be projecting? Can’t project on something you actually say in your own posts either.
“Sharina, you and others have made the grave mistake of thinking, i am here to be liked.”—No, but you whine about it in every comment (when no one mentions it) so I am guessing there is some truth to it for you.
As far as the rest of your post it is irrelevant nonsense. You go on and on about how you are some victim to others yet several times have victimized others for no reason. You are mad at me because I don’t have a “black” husband. Do you even read what you write? Look at this comment where you continue to try to convince yourself that it is true . It has to be true for you because otherwise you are exactly the person I pegged you to be. Otherwise you are simply no more than individual who throws around words or misuse words simply to shame.
“Then turn around and say you’re pro-black and you love black men, yet don’t have a black husband or black man but a white man, white Hispanic, ec”
I could easily put a picture of my husband on this board and blow your theory completely out of the water, but why bother? Because at the end of the day…all you have is your delusions and conspiracy theories. No different from the average white racist.
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One more thing I want to add to the above….Those same people you call yourself “calling out” are the same one on other boards fighting the ignorance of these white racist trolls that run on this blog. Throwing their knowledge at them day in and day out. Calling out those “sell outs” and “uncle toms.”
But you don’t give them credit for that…instead you save all your energy for the moment you can call them NBW or worse.
I’m done and I will kindly not mention your name again. 🙂
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miss yvonne off again, is that ghetto bs like oh i was kiddin around with this hooker tonight has a white husband about jump for your lowest standards idk the wife was banging on my passenger window with a 8″ steak knife after picking it up in the house and threatening to deflate every tire i have as if that would be on my one car well anyway that was um interesting it was time to go
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most importantly i’m getting comfortable without beer imagine that
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Sharina
“Last I check this is a public forum so I am free to voice what I think when I think it all day everyday. :)”
Not when you’re always wrong and telling lies, like you do every day on this blog about everyone you don’t like.
“Secondly you have no qualms with assuming and making up stuff and what I think so I find it masterfully funny how you react when it is done to you.”
You sound like such a child in this statement but i expect nothing but this for you.
“Do point to where I said it was the wrong one? I just said that what you say tells a different story.”
You always project, you’re interpretation onto other posters on this blog, telling someone, mentioning false statements about what i was saying to Adonis. Typical tactic push your agenda, pathetic.
“Sorry but that is not how projection works. I never use those derogatory terms so how would I be projecting? Can’t project on something you actually say in your own posts either. ”
This makes no sense, you didn’t even address this statement properly.
More Psycho babbling….
” You are mad at me because I don’t have a “black” husband.”
lol I’m hardly made because you don’t have a black husband. Just verifies that you hate black men, this is why you fight every black man on this blog tooth and nail and are always friendly to white men and if a Hispanic men is on this blog you will be kind and nice to him, longs as the person isn’t a black man, you’re OK with them. Oh, abagond, doesn’t count, he owns and runs this blog.
I don’t need a picture of your, “husband” that you seem to never be with, being you’re on this blog all day every day with nothing better to do than argue and fight with black men.
Showing that your Hispanic husband is or isn’t white is irrelevant, doesn’t disprove you’re a hater of black men.
“One more thing I want to add to the above….Those same people you call yourself “calling out” are the same one on other boards fighting the ignorance of these white racist trolls that run on this blog. Throwing their knowledge at them day in and day out. Calling out those “sell outs” and “uncle toms.”
But you don’t give them credit for that…instead you save all your energy for the moment you can call them NBW or worse.
I can say the same for all the black men, that you fight on this blog, call names and disrespect on a daily basis.
You always try to act high and mighty but at the end of the day, you’re not what you claim to be, you’re a fake, wanna be black feminist activist that hates black men, nothing more nothing less.
Do you even have a job? Do you work? I mean sheesh, i am on every now and again, work and have a life, you seem to not have either.
I don’t know any mother that claims to have a husband and kids that has so much time on her hands to be on a blog, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You are ALWAYS commenting on this blog, it normally takes me days to responding, being i work and have a life. You obviously need to get a life and take care of your kids and supposed, husband.
Go F*ck him or take care of your kids, instead of arguing with every black man you come across on this blog.
You’re sad….
You’re simply a mad angry black woman, that has been done wrong by the black men, that YOU choose and now you’re taking it out on every black man on this blog, typical.
This is why you’re with a Hispanic, the closest to white as possible.
Now I’m done with you..have a nice day. 🙂
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@ The man names I said I would not say
“Not when you’re always wrong and telling lies, like you do every day on this blog about everyone you don’t like.”—Don’t have to lie when you can simply be quoted or it can be read, but I think it is best you reserve this advice for yourself. 🙂
“You sound like such a child in this statement but i expect nothing but this for you.”—Yet I am not wrong
“You always project, you’re interpretation onto other posters on this blog, telling someone, mentioning false statements about what i was saying to Adonis. Typical tactic push your agenda, pathetic.”—I am at this point talking to you but on every post you try to make it about everyone else. Adonis (if you care to look up) addressed me and a few other posters. I responded to him about “MY” idea of what you were sayings. As I am allowed to and will quote examples if necessary. As for agenda….if you say so. 🙂
“This makes no sense, you didn’t even address this statement properly.”—It was addressed, but I think it is a bit sad that it needs to be explained. So moving on.
“lol I’m hardly made because you don’t have a black husband. Just verifies that you hate black men, this is why you fight every black man on this blog tooth and nail and are always friendly to white men and if a Hispanic men is on this blog you will be kind and nice to him, longs as the person isn’t a black man, you’re OK with them. Oh, abagond, doesn’t count, he owns and runs this blog.”—ROFL. Yet I just quoted a rant you have about me and my husband. If it did not bother you then you would not be so quick to bring him up over and over again as if it really mattered. Secondly I do not fight brothawolf nor Legion, or king for that matter. So I guess that debunks you there.
“I don’t need a picture of your, “husband” that you seem to never be with, being you’re on this blog all day every day with nothing better to do than argue and fight with black men.”—Considering my husband works 7 days a week 12 hrs….No I don’t get to see him much. 🙂
“Showing that your Hispanic husband is or isn’t white is irrelevant, doesn’t disprove you’re a hater of black men.”—Doesn’t prove it either, but for something so irrelevant….it has yet to stop you for making it the base of your arguments.
“You always try to act high and mighty but at the end of the day, you’re not what you claim to be, you’re a fake, wanna be black feminist activist that hates black men, nothing more nothing less.”—If it helps sondis….I have dated and slept with black men. LOL!!!
“Do you even have a job? Do you work? I mean sheesh, i am on every now and again, work and have a life, you seem to not have either.”—I guess you missed the stay at home mom comment. *shrugs
“Go F*ck him or take care of your kids, instead of arguing with every black man you come across on this blog.”—Why don’t you f*ck him since you are so concerned, but my goodness. Excuse me for having technology. I could be anywhere typing this and you would be none the wiser. 🙂
Nice and weak comeback on the “you have nothing to do” rhetoric.
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“I guess you missed the stay at home mom comment. *shrugs”
Another way of saying, “A loser” that has no job and sits home all day and fights with black men on a black blog.
I see why you hate black men and fight every black man on this blog, you need to compensate for such a loser you are.
This day and age, there is no such thing as a stay at home mom, moms work and take care of their kids. You have no life, you’re probably obese and overweight, being you stay at home and sit at a computer all day, shoving ding dongs in your mouth.
This is why you’re so angry with black men, you blame them for your short comings. Now i see clearly that you’re not worth even arguing with, you’re a loser that doesn’t even pull your own weight.
Get a job, you lazy slouch…
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@Sondis
“It is just that, these black women are seen as back-up Pu**y but don’t plan on having anything serious with these black women.”
Black men obviously don’t plan on having anything serious with black women either. Just look at how few black men marry ANYBODY. So what have black women got to lose by taking a chance with any other kind of man? Nothing.
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“Jayis:
“It is just that, these black women are seen as back-up Pu**y but don’t plan on having anything serious with these black women.”
Black men obviously don’t plan on having anything serious with black women either. Just look at how few black men marry ANYBODY. So what have black women got to lose by taking a chance with any other kind of man? Nothing.”
That’s odd, being in America, the majority of black men, Mary black women.
I will agree that black men, don’t marry at high rates but neither do black women. Black people, marry at the lowest rate of any racial group.
white supremacy is at the heart of this.
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@Sondis
“This day and age, there is no such thing as a stay at home mom, moms work and take care of their kids.”
Where I live, about half the moms are stay at home moms, either all or a part of the day. These are white women. Are they losers too or do you save that word for only black women who stay home with their children?
Believe it or not Sondis, some men work long hours to make sure that their children’s mom can stay at home with them instead of handing them over to daycare or the babysitter. Maybe those men think their kids are worth that.
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@The man whose name I will not say.
Rofl. Weak and desperate. I have the option not to work so I don’t. 🙂
Yet I listed 3 black MEN I have not fought with so ….
I prefer my galaxy note 2 or my kindle. Lol
As for your fat comment….the only thing phat on me is my azz and not many would complain avout that. Lol
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“As for your fat comment….the only thing phat on me is my azz and not many would complain avout that. Lol”
of coarse you would say that, no woman would ever admit to being, “FAT” Only “thick”
” I have the option not to work so I don’t.”
Of course you don’t, lazy people tend to not work, if they don’t have too.
Get a job you slouch…
We are in 2013, recession is in full effect and you’re at home, ignoring your children and “husband”, just so you can fight with every black man on this blog.
Two incomes are necessary these days I’m not buying the stay at home mom bit, its just an excuse. hire a nanny and go to work, you slouch!
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@Jayis
*applause* from me and my husband.
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Jayis:
“Believe it or not Sondis, some men work long hours to make sure that their children’s mom can stay at home with them instead of handing them over to daycare or the babysitter. Maybe those men think their kids are worth that.”
Its not her husband decision, its hers, she doesn’t want to work. She’s a lazy slouch that hates black men and argues with every black man, that disagrees with her.
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Sharina spends most of the time on this blog debunking racist whites, most of us know that
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@Sondis
“That’s odd, being in America, the majority of black men, Mary black women.”
Only about a third of black men marry ANYBODY. Only a minority of black men marry at all.
“I will agree that black men, don’t marry at high rates but neither do black women. Black people, marry at the lowest rate of any racial group.”
Maybe black men should marry black women? It’s men who ask women for marriage.
“white supremacy is at the heart of this.”
There was white supremacy during slavery and jim crow but black men still knew how to ask black women to marry them. So why blame this on white supremacy. Why don’t you blame black men? Or do you expect white men to step up and marry black women?
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Jayis:
I can already tell, that you’re a white person. You have an agenda, that is why you are sticking up for a black woman, ( sharina ) that hates black men.
I never seen your nick before, so you could be a sock puppet. a supporter of Sharina’s that’s taking her side in attacking me but i expect this. Typical.
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@Sondis
“Two incomes are necessary these days I’m not buying the stay at home mom bit, its just an excuse. hire a nanny and go to work, you slouch!”
It shows that you’re losing the debate when you start calling names.
“Its not her husband decision, its hers, she doesn’t want to work. She’s a lazy slouch that hates black men and argues with every black man, that disagrees with her.”
Are you the 3rd party in their relationship? How do you know whose decision it was. Sounds like you’re making up things to fit your argument. That’s another sign that you’re losing the debate.
A lot of couples come out ahead financially when a mother stays home with the children. It costs money to hold down a job. A lot of little expenses and they all add up. You must not realize how expensive daycare is these days. It can almost cost half the after-tax salary of a lot of workers unless the woman makes close to six figures. Do you make close to six figures, Sondis?
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@Sondis
“I can already tell, that you’re a white person. You have an agenda, that is why you are sticking up for a black woman, ( sharina ) that hates black men.”
Sondis, it’s just that your argument is paper thin. I couldn’t help myself. If you want to believe I’m white, so be it. You sound paranoid.
“I never seen your nick before, so you could be a sock puppet. a supporter of Sharina’s that’s taking her side in attacking me but i expect this. Typical.”
Could it just be that you’re losing the debate and need an out?
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Lmao back @Ebonymonroe,
“I read this article (the full length version) about two days ago. One of the issues mentioned was the fact that Black boys in predominantly White schools completely distance themselves, disconnect with, and ignore all Black girls, choosing instead to align with White female classmates during school and for after school social settings/gatherings.”
You’re trying a literal “gotcha” but purposely missing the point. I read the article as well and in typical fashion the commentators turned ONE of the issues, which was a side issue and frankly a bit suspect, into THE central issue and went off on a tangent as Adonis indicated. The article gave several possible reasons why Black boys do better in integrating into suburban schools than Black girls and guess which ones they jumped on as THE reason? Within a few comments they were well off into the woods with personal tales of suffering and woe and had lost the point of the article.
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@name I will not name
Whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel better. 🙂
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@B. R.
Most do know that, but the sad part it how quick one can be labeled a NBW or supporter of white supremacy over nothing.
@ name I will not name.
“Its not her husband decision, its hers, she doesn’t want to work. She’s a lazy slouch that hates black men and argues with every black man, that disagrees with her.”—Actually I worked while I was also going through labor pains with my son so I am not lazy, but after my son’s birth my husband and I decided that I should stay at home with the kids. Because of our decision my daughter is on “A” honor roll and is learning a second language. My 2 year old son is also benefiting as he has started to pick up the language as well.
So like I said before….whatever it is you need to tell yourself to make you feel better.
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@Jayis,
“Only about a third of black men marry ANYBODY. Only a minority of black men marry at all.”
You’re sidestepping the point which is those BM who do get married, mostly marry BW.
More importantly, you’re either missing, or don’t know about, the bigger picture. The general US marriage rate has been steadily dropping since the 70s and is now at an all time low of 31.1 marriages per 1000 women. Add in the high divorce rate and that people are less likely to get remarried than they did in the past and there you go.
“Maybe black men should marry black women? It’s men who ask women for marriage.
It’s always amazing how for certain people here black women seem to lack agency and just become passive little bystanders in their own lives when it’s convenient for an argument. So it’s not traditional for women to ask men to get married and that’s fine but, they can still try and make sure they choose their partners wisely, set up expectations for a serious relationship or bounce.
“There was white supremacy during slavery and jim crow but black men still knew how to ask black women to marry them. So why blame this on white supremacy. Why don’t you blame black men? Or do you expect white men to step up and marry black women?”
As I pointed out above, the overall marriage rate has been falling for 40 years and is now at an all time low. So it’s not just a BM thing. Also perhaps you should refresh or update your idea white supremacy. Maybe check out the “New Jim Crow” or Stop and Frisk or the long running War on Drugs as all of these several decade long policies have had a tremendous disparate impact on black men that’s not even debatable. That black men are more criminalized now then during the old Jim Crow and slavery is a remarkable testimony to the endurance of white supremacy. Toss in the economic collapse and, again, its terrible disparate impact on blacks and there you go. Again.
But I guess it’s easier to ignore the relevant facts and just pretend that it’s just those darn irresponsible and wayward black men who just simply refuse to marry black women who are just passively waiting for their Prince to come along.
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wow I see a bunch of ignorant comments going off topic and making personal attacks. smh. so much for adults agreeing to disagree.
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Sharina, you and your family are so cool , and I know exactly what you mean…and , if anyone on here beleived any of these accuasations, they werent worth being a freind in the first place…
Its very interesting on here, using black nationalist political agenda phrases to bludgen proven anti white racists over the head if they dont agree with them
this smacks of the same logic when black activists, who had been jailed or beat by police in the struggle, were banned or dissmissed from black activist meetings for being with a white person (actualy , I was invited to a black activist meeting , by freinds who knew me and one of the leaders, who I didnt know , who trusted me, when I got there some people objected, and i volountarily left, with no bad feeling on my part, but, just to say, I know exactly what kind of climate existed back then, I was there)
and , it boggles the mind, that anti white racist people of color, get hammered with political agendas from the 60’s
KS, you have a point about marraidge statistics, and I have heard that also, and the marraidge argument is leveled on both sides by black men and black women…and you are right about the drug war…I think that and culture discrimination are the more important issues…pay scales, schools in black neighborhoods being brought up in qualitIn some respects, since the 60’s was more a political thrust than a cultural thrust, many aspects of the political discourse have become exhausted, resulting in men and women turning on each other because the political agenda badgered at them of having tro be loyal as sex partners, is too heavy a weight to bear , and its buckling under the preasure
with the political advances, it seems there is some kind of emptiness , a black president has been elected, you dont get any more political than that, it sure was a result of those political agendas, and, raxcism still exists, and people are still dealing with colorism..look , from 69 until 74 or so, black people wore naturals , black was beautiful, all that was in the grasp…if thwere is colorisation because of hair, it was under control at that point…but you know, hair styles and clothes are only acrutaments to real culture…that wasnt very deep to go as a contesting point of culture…
what was left behind was a real cultural awareness, that has never really been flushed out, and, if you ask me, white people are very vindictive, and will think with obama as president that black people got everything and now they are going to show them…but, the real filet mignon that leaves them vulnerable is exactly the cultural treatment and game we see with Juba, that does come right down into today…that is a reality most black people feel out right, threre are some really horrible representations of black people in the media, and that is cultural..and these aspects are among the most powerful at affecting colorism
but, unfortunatly, it takes some work past some nationalist phrases, people are going to actualy have do some work and unravel the truth about people like Juba, they dont have to like jazz, but they will have to learn its history, and dance cant be looked on as a steryotype, it should be revered as much as westerners rever ballet
I see a frightening trend in Brazil, quotas are coming in, racism is being addressed and black people are showing up in the media, but , deep afro diasporic culture is being slowly pushed into the back ground, they canceled carnival in my city this year, but Octoberfest went ahead,the art of the black passista is being replaced with modals and celebrities,
I beleive culture has to catch up with the political agendas , and new political agendas that are well thought out should be pursued
message from grandpops , trying to grandfather everybody
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@”You’re sidestepping the point which is those BM who do get married, mostly marry BW.
More importantly, you’re either missing, or don’t know about, the bigger picture. The general US marriage rate has been steadily dropping since the 70s ”
It was Sondis who made the statement that black women are back up Pu**y for white men. Where’s your comeback at him? I was just pointing out that they’re back ups for black men TOO since only a minority of black men are asking black women for marriage. It’s expected for men who are of the same group will be the ones who marry most of the women of said group. That’s nothing extraordinary. Don’t throw a party about that.
Now that the NBW word has been declared off limits by Abagond. Sondis is showing that he will continue to come up with the most vile words to use against black women who go out with other men. Where are his vile words for black men who go out with white women? That number is a whole lot bigger. His jealousy is just too obvious.
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Jayis,
Now don’t go sideways on me. I’m not throwing a party for anything. Your comeback to sondis didn’t make any sense so I ignored it and stuck to the relevant facts/issue. Since only a minority of BM are asking BW for marriage that means that most BW are back up whatever for BM because they’re not getting married to them? Um, backup to what? If you’re not married or getting married, then anybody you have sex with is backup? That doesn’t make sense. Trying to go to the next level down with the who’s dating who is too vague to bother with as an argument.
Anyway, if I understand sondis’s argument correctly (which I might not) when you strip it away his strident nature (heh), he’s saying that WM marry BW at much lower rates than BM so the majority of those relationships are suspect if you use the same logic being thrown at BM here. Yes I cleaned it up and his general stylistic rudeness in sticking up for BM puts some folks off that but at least he seems to be logically consistent on this point. The name calling has mostly been tit for tat. Some of you call him jealous and bitter and whatnot but instead of the polite insult back, he goes there….as in NBW…lol.
Well some of you seemed to have gained a minor victory in the rhetorical battle as Abagond has banned the NBW so I guess that’s something.
In any event, my overall point about marriage rates puts the whole “who’s zoomin who” blame game in perspective for the sideshow it is.
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Why in the world are we talking about interracial relationships on here when we can be talking about Obamacare, Black on Black crime, high dropout rate among the Black youth etc. Yet there is a forum on interracial relationships? Interracial relationships shouldn’t be an issue in our communities. We should focus on things that are actually problems in our communities like Black on Black crime, high dropout rates of Black youth etc.
Most Black people marry other Black people. Very few Blacks actually marry outside of their race. Most people prefer their own kind. That is settled. Don’t ask me anymore questions on this subject but I wonder why make a forum on such a topic?
That is what I wonder.
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ah it was a jump off i was talkin about last night about the lowest standards
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get over (on) it and get on with it
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@BR
African Culture could be fading in Brazil because of the greater acceptance.
Maybe its just me but whenever you see black people from foreign cultures with less racism than the US….they usually seem a lot more like the white people there.
Basically they are just people from the UK or France that happen to be black.
It could simply be missing cultural nuances not having been from there but think about the various white ethnicity in the US; whats left over of Italian culture for those immigrants is maybe a slight tendency to eat spaghetti more than the main stream.
Essentially the more African-Americans get accepted into the main stream the more the need for a separate unique culture goes away.
And its already starting to happen; look at how little music changed in the couple decades.
How clothing fashions have started to stagnate……how African-Americans are starting to take up the Anglo-American cultures centered around goth, hipster, punk etc…..
@K
Basically what they are saying is; BM aren’t treating BW any better than White Men are.
Don’t remember who mentioned about white men marrying Black Women for Black Men.
But isn’t that exactly whats happening, Black Men don’t marry Black Women as much so White Men are starting to pick up the slack?
I mean; if your not going to marry them, why care when someone outside the race does?
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And if you look at it; the trouble in relationships in the African-American community began with the down sliding of white supremacy and the rising of black supremacy culture/black pride/black power.
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“I mean; if your not going to marry them, why care when someone outside the race does?”
__ __ __
BINGO!
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And if you look at it; the trouble in relationships in the African-American community began with the down sliding of white supremacy and the rising of black supremacy culture/black pride/black power.
__ __ __
Or, what’s much more likely is the fact that it began with desegregation, which started around the same time as the civil rights and Black Power movements.
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@Pay It Forward
I agree with you. I think integration was the worst thing that ever wanted to Black people in America besides slavery and Jim Crow. You don’t integrate with the enemy ie White man and accept good results but the main problem isn’t exactly integrating with Whites.
We have lost the values we held dear to us during segregation, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Movement. The Black family structure is gone. 73% of our children are born out of wedlock. 93% of Black people kill other Black people thus high Black on Black crime. Many Black Youth in the inner cities drop out rate is as high as 50%. Rap music being distributed today sends anti Black and bad messages to the Black Youth. Blacks are 13% of the population yet commit 50% of the crimes in this country. Homosexuality is being more accepted in our communities. I can go on and on about this but our community is in shambles.
And my generation is the worse off too but I help the community and change it for the better.
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@V- 4 and Pay It Forward
I believe I read your posts wrong. But White supremacy is still in force and rampant around this country. Can’t you guys see that?
And Black pride and Black supremacy is not the same thing at all. I believe in having pride in my race but I don’t think Black people are better than other races.
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so hard with the mh thing too its sad
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im hearing it from my mom this girl is a stalking
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yous can catch up on my fb thingie there up to the left
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@V-4,
“Basically what they are saying is; BM aren’t treating BW any better than White Men are.
Don’t remember who mentioned about white men marrying Black Women for Black Men.
But isn’t that exactly whats happening, Black Men don’t marry Black Women as much so White Men are starting to pick up the slack?
I mean; if your not going to marry them, why care when someone outside the race does?”
Your first first point/sentence is rather dubious and pretty impossible to prove. It would come down to a nonsensical battle of dueling anecdotes.
Your third point/sentence is simply wrong and invalidates your final point/question.
Actually, no that’s not what’s happening. I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand as the data is clear. Repeat – the marriage rate is at a historic low. Period. In that context, nobody is picking up the slack for anybody else. By your reasoning, you could say that White Men don’t marry White Women as much (as before) so Black Men are starting to pick up the slack, right? And you would be as factually accurate (less marrying) and contextually wrong (picking up slack) as you were with the example you provided above, But you won’t go near that last example lest your stir the hornets nest. lol.
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@V-4
Yeah, no. Black people in the UK or France have it worse than we do. Partially because the UK, France, and European countries in general were created from centuries of ethnocentric bigotry and tribal warfare, and because unlike us, Afro-Brits and Afro-Francs haven’t created unique cultural, philosophical, political, and artistic traditions to articulate their condition and validate their humanity. Trust me, Black people aren’t accepted anywhere in Europe. Or the Americas for that matter.
I chalk that up to corporatism and history more than anything else. Hip-Hop was created by the offspring of the Civil Rights generation as a means of venting their frustrations in a post-MLK world. Those frustrations have yet to be addressed, so the music is equally relevant for the next generation.
During the first half of the 20th century, our dress was identical to that of Anglo-Americans, and that was when the novelty of our culture was at its peak. There’s more to culture than song, dance, and threads.
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@V-4
If our culture were only music and clothing, Justin Bieber would be African American, lol!
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tryin to remember re: the jump off i was like aim for the highest bridge and jump to your lowest standards it was funny you had to have been there know what i mean
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@D
I agree with what your saying about Black Brits for the most part. But culturally, it’s not 100% true, African Caribbeans have definitely had waves of cultural influence in modern British society and have made small footprints of cultural space of their own. Sometimes African Americans are very unaware of the scale and history of Black British culture. When you still couldn’t even get “colored music” on mainstream radio, the UK was completely being taken over by reggae, Lover’s rock, and Motown. And you forget about Soul to soul, Sade, Monie Love, Omar, etc. We have British hip hop, and other genres, we have our own music channels, we had Desmonds (a huge Afro Carribean show, popular all across Britain in the early 90’s). We had our own In living color, we are very present in the biggest British soap “Eastenders.” We have our own Black British Indie film scene. We have our Caribbean carnival day, we have our Black history month. We had our protests, campaigns, and riots in the 60’s. Shoot, we even have our own Rodney King (Stephen Lawrence), who’s murderers were recently brought to justice. His death sparked somewhat of a reformation in British policing, after an investigation caused Britain to have to confess on national TV that the British police was institutionally racist.
We definitely haven’t made the historic political strides that African American have, but, our cultural footprint is pretty established and ever flourishing, over here. It’s just that African Americans are often very much switched off from other Black communities and their goings-ons outside of their own.
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@Ks
Although I am quite fond of your sarcastic, deadpan commentary, I shall continue to cling (and bask in the glory) of my “a-ha moment.” I do not agree that it was irrelevant to the piece. Though a significant portion of the comments on the article (on the clutchmag site) were a bunch of complaining bitter, rants, half-to-the-majority of the comments were expected reactions and cosigns and testimonies from BW who had experienced these things. BW will generally not be concerned or surprised by what WP do, of course their sense of disappointment will rest in how their own behave. Even BW who distance themselves from all other Black classmates to accepted, was mentioned. It is a given. The commentary on White supremacy and “sellout c00ning BM” being the focal point of the piece for the sistas, is no different to Sondis speaking on sellout BW and White supremacy, in this interracial thread, and having his concerns be more focused on his feelings towards those of his own who behave in this manner, moreso than WP, who he wouldn’t expect as much of. In that regard, the likelihood of the comments not falling into being heavily centred on that, was slim.
A-ha! One mo’ gen. . . A-ha!
(Keeps “a-ha moment,” does ghetto cheer, Caribbean tick-tock and Rosie Perez body pump included. Walks away with Tyra Banks strut.)
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Yeah, very true. We’re just as prone to Amero-centrism as our paler counterparts.
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@ebonymore,
I see you girl or should I say I see ya gal! Go ‘head an do your thing and work it. I ain’t mad at youI
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V4 , The Afro diasporic experiance in the Americas, is nothing like any of the other American experiances..
And , first, Id like to say , one of the fundimentals any black person should look for in a white person that a relationship could go down, is if they have some kind of cultural respect, for the men and women , they dont have to know exact histories, but, show some fundimental cultural respect
You know, the slaves brought in from Africa to the americas , had their cultures buried and destroyed, stripped from them , and banned , to prepare to be slaves, some places more , some less, but it was en masse , and big business…
anyone who ties dance/ drumming into something frivilous , or not worth examining on its own as a fulcrum to a culture , doesnt get that drum dance is just the membrane to a larger space in the soul, as big as the space in relationship from the energy feilds on the out side , to the nucleas of an atom, …its so much more than that yet , that simple…
this destroying of culture in the slave times was some primodial foam that begat some kind of retchid life form, meaning ,how this stripping a people of their identity…culture…how the slave owners and traficars felt about that people’s culture , is what enabled them to tie into a packedge of phenotype and cultural practices from a certain location , a reason to enslave them
This is the fundimental thing that gets tied in with the white abherations of the cultures that were dripping through in slave times…like leaks in a dyke that is going to explode all over…
these stories are just unbeleivable testaments to surviving and rising to conquer the most horrible of adversities…Juba is an unbeleivable story…this is the real vulnerability of the white society, the whole media thing etc…because , the racists are going to be ganged up obn many political out lits, and the media will never be able to tell the real story, even if it did change since Julia…
and , these Afro diasporic drum dance cultures absolutly dominated and became the building blocks and foundations for any country that they were brought over in great numbers..all other cultures were slaves to this rhythm and dance, having to fit on top within the paramators of Afro diasporic culture…
that is immense…thge stories are immense, the discrimination was cronic, the actual armed violent represion was all roo real in many countries…
In the American back drop, there is never a real acknoldgement of these cultural contributions, its always the same, the rejection, call to ban, the next generation copies, embraces, has one of their own become the popular one…then , certainly in jazz, the black artists get recognised as the innovators, and as geniuses, 100 year later…while the same game is going down now
that is the underbelly and vulnerable side of white society now..but, a person has to be knowledgable , or they will just bury people like Juba…what a fascinating great black american innovator…the fillet mignon is culture..it is the weak spot
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(Hangs head in palms @typos.)
@D
Naw, don’t worry. To be honest, the Black British community is just as bad when it comes to other Black communities outside of their own. I guess that’s why they call us a “diaspora.” Lol. I still agree with the essence of your post.
@Ks
Alright now dada.
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and, the assimulation you are talking about comes at a cost for black people I dont see eveyone else paying…since black people built the foundations in these cultures…but their real contributions , and why they are profound, are missed , or dissmissed …its not just some song or dance or some popular hit, ts the principles and laws of a culture passed down from ancient times, sending a message…about turning off the thinking brain and how to get in touch with intuition and create a life of its own , windows to the inside deep space…the soul…and they had a method to invoke these nothing short of organic fractal laws…
To miss those deeper elements , is to never really understand the depth of the contribution
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last post to v4…yeah and white people need to be taxed for this….they need to be held accountable for this cultural charade, but, someone has to do the work to really understand these histories…it has to be black voices like Wynton
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@Adonis
This whole thing you keep saying about BW looking up to WW and wanting to be like them is so far off base that I do not understand how you can be around BW, as a BM, and still come to this conclusion.
First of all, you’re not a BW to really speak for us like that. Secondly, BW look up to women like Lauryn Hill, TLC, Beyonce, Aaliyah, Pam Grier, Janet Jackson, and Mary J Blige. I’ve never come across a BW who looks up to someone, like, Britney Spears, or Sharon Stone.
I’ve always been into fashion. When I was in my teens, I used to paste high fashion pictures from Vogue magazine on my wall. I was a little obsessed with fashion photography. My girls would clown because there were WW on my wall, and I would have to explain that there were very few ads with Black models for me to use.
When Aaliyah was big, we were busy walking into things because our hair was covering half our faces. When “Poetic Justice,” and Patra and Yoyo, came out with “Romantic call,” we were busy breaking our necks with braids the size of large ropes and oversized doorknocker earrings. When Mary J Blige was big, we had more highlights than the sun.
I list BM who have shown love for BW, who BW are extremely loyal to, like, Maxwell, LL Cool J, (for around the way girls), Idris Elba (who is a known champion of BW), and even Denzel Washington, for the rumor that he refused to do a love scene with a White actress, so as not to offend BW, (which turned out to be untrue). Kendrick Lamar, over requiring that a dark skinned model be selected for the video for the song “Poetic Justice.” Drake, for using “full blooded looking” Black women in his videos. J cole for “Crooked smile,” 2pac for “Keep your head up” and “Baby don’t cry.”
You say BW would love them simply because they’re famous, but miss the fact that BW went off Taye Diggs when he kept generalising the encounters he had with BW, over his WW, on all BW. He continued to make offensive comments in the media, his show bombed, and now he’s crying that it’s because BW, (a minority in America), didn’t support it. Slim Thug’s career is probably over, after his comments. BW are done with Pollow Da Don after his comments. BW like that guy Lebront James (?), who has a BW. BW are not into Coby or Lamar Odom.
So, no, they’re not unconditionally in support of BM because they’re famous. But they’re very supportive of BM who show them love.
And you can’t tell me BW don’t defend BM after I posted BW’s responses over Madonna’s comments about BM. Even while BM responses were in defense of Madonna, while attacking and degrading the BW defending them. You’re playing.
I’ve already told you what I 100% believe to be behind BW suddenly noticing BM with WW. The constant propaganda on news reports about BW being the least likely to be married, the BW hate speech by BM online, the circulation of the fact that BM marry out the most out of all men. Highly visible BM in media/entertainment with White wives. So, of course, when a BM is walking hand in hand with a WW, a BW will register it and notice it. It’s confirming buzz that she’s probably been hearing for years.
Truth be told, do I think it bothers a number of BW when they see BM with White and non Black women? Yes, I do.
Do I think BW would suddenly want these men for themselves because they’re with WW? No, I don’t. Not at all, not based on that.
I happened to hear a group of (African American) brothas I was around a few weeks ago, talking amongst themselves. They were clowning about how the Black guys who only dated White girls in school were always the lames. Even the Hispanic dude was in agreement and laughing along.
I can tell you of a personal experience. Once, in my teens, I was walking, on my way home, with one of my girls, from the movies. At the train station, there was a Brotha with a blonde haired very fair skinned White girl. I did somewhat of a double take, I did notice them. Why? I don’t know, I just did. Nothing malicious behind it, I didn’t stare, and I didn’t give them any dirty looks or anything like that. I wasn’t offended at all, I just registered them. When she had her back turned, he began trying to make eyes at me and flirt. Did I respond? No, he wasn’t my type. Perhaps it was due to the fact that BM with WW was very rare in the neighborhood I grew up in. Just because BW notice, it doesn’t mean she wants to suddenly be with dude. That’s the part I think you’re overlooking.
BM clown on this a lot, too, and not just the Black nationalist brothas, believe it or not. I told you about those brothas I heard talking the other day. I’ve heard brothas call BM who only date non BW “c00ns,” I’ve heard them name call BM who hate on BW, period. You can go over to youtube and watch Paul Mooney Jr’s comedy commentary shorts on popular culture. In his “Russell Simmons video” and his “Kanye West video,” he clowns on them for being with non BW.
The Black community is not out here killing BM with non BW. I think BM have more to worry about than BW and BM giving them a hard time over dating non BW. We’re not locking you up or killing you over this. There are more pressing issues at hand, in the Black community, than BW mean mugging, or BM clowning BM with non BW, imho.
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i always get the wierd ones my pointer is requiring calibration some kinda way
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@v8driver
What? What happened? A hooker, a weapon, a stalker, miss Yvonne?
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@KS
Well; more likely its BM aren’t marrying BW as much so they are looking out of the race more so than WM actually behaving any differently than usual.
And marriage rates are going down; excepting for gay marriages I guess, but they aren’t all going down at the same rates are they? There is a pretty extreme difference between the dropping rates of African Americans as compared to others isn’t there?
That being said; the dropping marriage might be why more people are dating interracial, none serious relationships is how they view them even when they have children or live together.
@Adeen
While some people in the black community involved in the drug trade are extremely violent that probably has less to do with them and more to do with the policing of black people as compared to other groups. Basically due to the police not doing their job the violent people in the black community are given more free reign than in other communities.
That being said; culturally their are differences in the level of violence, pretty notable ones, even in the groups where the police are doing there job.
Still; most black people aren’t especially violent.
The rate of crimes for black people is actually dropping isn’t it?
And honestly; I can’t see a problem with homophobia going away in the black communities.
Yes; there are problems but your looking at the worst of the black community and focusing on that.
@D
Interesting; I’ve always heard both on this blog and by anyone whose gone over seas, military etc…..that outside of the US racism is notably lower than it is here, your the first person I’ve met to claim the opposite.
I didn’t say there wasn’t racism I said there wasn’t as much.
There’s a lot more to being goth, hipster and punk than just clothing and music. They are all cultures with their own values, philosophies and ways of looking at the world.
It would be like saying someone who is a country boy or a cowboy is only about threads and music. We all know it carries way more connotations than just that.
The current generation tends listens to the same music as white people, talk like white and dress more like white people.
As integration continues; more and more African-Americans will lose their culture like most ethnicity lose most of their cultures when they come to the US.
Like you pointed out yourself; Hip-Hop came about to deal with cultural unrest but the more that gets dealt with; the less need to create a culture and setting to feel comfortable and belong in.
@BR
B.R.; you assume the the reason something is happening is purely bigotry but its just as likely that the reason any black culture existed on any reason at all was as a reaction to the bigotry itself.
Get rid of bigotry and like most other ethnicities AA would just have assimilated as much as other cultures and the more bigotry lessens; the more African Americans assimilate.
The reason African-American culture is dying done while bigotry is dying down is because of that very lessening of bigotry.
Its the ultimate result of intolerance and hate going away; the minority culture goes away as well, the need for it simply no longer exists for them.
They needed a safe haven; a place to exist and feel like they belonged, that wasn’t happening in the main stream so they had to latch on to other cultural aspects and create their own.
As they gain more acceptance; they have less need for that and so the more it goes away.
Or to look at it another way; the more acceptance African-Americans get, the more interracial relationship goes up and the more mixed they will become.
That mixture if it continues will eventually result in an African-American population ala Mexico where it is only around 3% of the population.
The biggest irony of bigotry, hatred and prejudice is it often creates the very things it wants to destroy.
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@ebonymonroe
“What? What happened? A hooker, a weapon, a stalker, miss Yvonne?”
all in one, an all inclusive person/experience i reckon.
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eh well we had been together for a few months pretty much, and i moved in with her, prematurely, and apparently she wasn’t ready to commit to a relationship, and her smoking habit became unmanageable at her level of income and also soon mine, so she implemented a workaround, to the detriment of our relationship, and this is second time i have left her house at knife point, well it’s better i stay away from her. she has been sending me text messages for 2 days straight now, i guess i can relate to how someone hates you and is obsessed!
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and no i didnt hit her she seems totally mentally ill, like naturally schizophrenic, exarcebated by alcohol/cocaine
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Smoking coke? Isn’t she pregnant? Babyboy, you need to let that girl go, for good. If you go back and end up having to defend yourself, you can be sure you’ll still be the one who ends up going to jail.
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@V-4,
“Well; more likely its BM aren’t marrying BW as much so they are looking out of the race more so than WM actually behaving any differently than usual.
And marriage rates are going down; excepting for gay marriages I guess, but they aren’t all going down at the same rates are they? There is a pretty extreme difference between the dropping rates of African Americans as compared to others isn’t there?”
Please do yourself a favor and check out the data for yourself. Type in “declining marriage rates” in any search engine and you’ll get the results. On top of what I mentioned earlier about the rates, people are waiting way longer to get married, are increasingly cohabitating, are divorcing at a higher rate and remarrying at a lower rate.
Of course, it’s not a perfectly even distribution Nothing is but so what? When you have such stark data, the blame game speculation is pointless. In terms of marriage, it’s like the famous saying…”rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic” but it seems like the related saying applies here…”and the band played on”.
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v8driver,
Whoa. You serious? Run and don’t look back. All jokes aside, you are playing roulette with your freedom and life.
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@ebonymonroe no the other coke smoker is pregnant. And yes miss yvonne is gloatting over the possibility of me goin to jail, im strongly considering getting a pfa (restraining order)
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@ks
“Of course, it’s not a perfectly even distribution Nothing is but so what? When you have such stark data, the blame game speculation is pointless.”
This depends on how it’s looked at. You may be looking at this statistically only and you may be trying to confirm your bias. Step away from statistics. In real life, a majority of white men, a numerically huge number of men in the U.S. still have the mentality to ask a woman he cares about for marriage, whereas only a minority of black men, a minority of a minority, marry ANYBODY. Therefore a black woman who has an actual, ongoing relationship with a white man has a higher likelihood of getting married.
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eh actually tommy sotomayer the other night was sayin why are you gonna fuck somebody up even more with this whole restraining order thing, it was not real clear the context, but it show police involvement on my family court record, which is separate, and not based on the constitutional principles of charges and disposition, it is all buried in this agency stuff, like DYFS is the CIA of NJ, if you don’t know look it up
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@Jayis,
“This depends on how it’s looked at. You may be looking at this statistically only and you may be trying to confirm your bias. Step away from statistics. In real life, a majority of white men, a numerically huge number of men in the U.S. still have the mentality to ask a woman he cares about for marriage, whereas only a minority of black men, a minority of a minority, marry ANYBODY. Therefore a black woman who has an actual, ongoing relationship with a white man has a higher likelihood of getting married.”
No, you are actually asking me to ignore the facts and confirm YOUR bias/agenda. The reality is the US is on the tail end of a trend (drastically lower marriage and birth rates) that’s been going on in the West in general for decades. The trend lines have been and are clear.
You’re playing the distribution game and trying to ignore the more important rate data. Nearly all of the reporting of this issue correctly focuses on the rate as it represents the here and now and, given the trends, probably the future. At 31 per 1000 women, a majority of people aren’t doing anything whatever you imagine their mentality to be above.
You seem to misunderstand that while the distribution offers a % breakdown of currently married by race it doesn’t tell you anything about the length of the marriages. It only tells you that x% of certain women are currently married. Period. So your supposed white men majority above includes people who’ve been married a day to people who’ve been married 50+ years and, as such, your reliance on it for your conclusion is flawed especially when you consider how drastically the ongoing drop has been across all groups. That’s why the general focus is on rate as it tells you what is going on right now (who is getting married right now as opposed to mixing in people who’ve been married for years) and what will likely continue in the future.
Also, you seem to have the notion that this is primarily a “romantic issue” aka asking for her hand in marriage and whatnot when, imo, the cold hard facts say otherwise. Talking about the collapse in the marriage rate in the Black community without considering what should be front and center – the now decades long wholesale criminalization of Black men (young black men in particular) and the various economic collapses and ongoing destruction of public education that have uniquely affected the black community as a whole – is fairly pointless.
Of course that won’t stop the back and forth finger pointing and the wishful slicing of the meager data into infinity (e.g. “one has a 2.39576% better chance of getting married if you…..”) but the current reality is pretty clear. Shrugs….
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@ Sharina. I also believe that you and yours are cool…. 😀
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Thanks Bulanik and Thank you as well B.R. We try. 🙂
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@D.
!
Oh, not true at all. Ebonymonroe has said it well, therefore I don’t feel I should say too much and nor am I qualified to do so — plus, I don’t even know where to start to demonstrate that it is simply NOT TRUE that Black France has only a vacuum to show for being…
However:
I thought it might be interesting (if anyone has the time) to add a little info about Black France. France has a considerable history of segregation, protest, racist violence, as well as culture and community-building, beginning in the latter part of the 18th century. Later on, France symbolized liberation in the experience and intellectual landscape of African Americans at one time. Think of James Baldwin or Miles Davis.
Let’s also not forget the courage and sacrifice of the Senegalese Tirailleurs, West Africa’s fighting men conscripted by the French during their wars. That goes back to the 1850s.
http://www.blackpast.org/gah/tirailleurs-senegalais
Think also of “Négritude”, francophone Africa’s cultural and ideological movement that began in the 1930s, and that movement’s exchange with the Harlem Renaissance…
One episode of a documentary about Black France:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE2j-dJIvYg)
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@ Bulainik, Let’s not forget the exquisite Josephine Baker.
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contd: Although I say “the late 18th century”, the history of black people in France doesn’t not actually BEGIN then. That beginning far earlier.
In fact PoC have been present and impacting Medieval Europe since…Medieval times.
Another documentary: “Afro Diasporic French Identities”, is the work of Nathalie Etoke’s research project that began in 2010. She studied the relationship between race and citizenship in France. Here’s an intro about that: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQcGNjGywSI)
Look too at the example of Babette de Rozieres, one of France’s premier chefs: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGnsnenfxns)
I don’t want to go further off-topic.
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@ mary burrell. Let’s not forget Miss Baker. Would we have heard of her if she stayed in her own culture and never went to France?
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@Bulanik: I wonder about that. I glad she made the decision she did to leave America, She was the toast of Paris and she was just so elegant.
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Bulanik: Thanx, for that pertinent information, I will check that out.
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Mary, comment in moderation following your Josephine Baker comment.
Added a bit more about modern Black France before admitting it was off-topic!
(Naughty – lol)
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@ Sharina: Thanx, for bringing to my attention Dido Belle. Never heard of her, but she sounds like someone I would like to read about.
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@ mary, Dido Belle remained “visible” in history partly because we knew how she looked. Black people (and other people of colour) appear not-infrequently in European paintings throughout the centuries. What we see is that some had intimate relationships or marriages with each other and some did not.
Even King George III of England seems to have married a woman who was of recent African descent:
http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eKRn8zW2pv8/TVadLBp8N6I/AAAAAAAABJI/_wgU8s8PNio/s1600/Charlotte%2BNDH.JPG&imgrefurl=http://zmblackhistorymonth2011.blogspot.com/2011/02/feb-12-charlotte-queen-of-england-and.html&h=265&w=190&sz=1&tbnid=K5Psdnl6tJwLAM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=133&zoom=1&usg=__DMh0wb0Ul7N2ky69omM93UnNZl4=&docid=rr9QDp5RdisXyM&itg=1&sa=X&ei=_u1yUo30F6Py7AasqYHIAw&ved=0CJgBEPwdMA0
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@ mary burrell
Thanks. I hope I find some more information on her soon. Her story is quite interesting. Thank you for the Josephine Baker reminder. I would always choose her to do a project on in school. Loved her.
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@mary burrell, Bulanik,
Josephine Baker! I will always have extra love for her because of amazingly heroic activities of behalf of the French Resistance during WWII and the way it shamed the national icon Maurice Chevalier who, depending on whom you ask, may or may not have been a collaborator.
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Fascinating. Thank you.
You know what, ks, I think Miss Baker deserves her own post.
I’d love to learn more about this incredible woman.
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ooh the other coke smoker is not pregnant i finally got to talk to her today how bout that
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@Kiwi,
The reason I posed that question was because I have told a few Asian-Americans in the past that they do things or have thinking patterns which impressed me as being very “white”. I even had this Asian-American female housemate who was very involved in Asian-American activism, but I once told her that she seemed to act more “white” to me. She was NOT happy I said that. I guess I meant very westernized.
The nature in which you criticize white people is different from how I saw things. In fact, you even said you saw the Gene Yang story in yourself. I think I might have still thought that way until I was about 13, but I rejected it by my mid-teens. By my late teens, I started not to hang out much with either white people or Asian-Americans. The former thought everyone should be more like white people, and the latter seemed to want to be more like white people or at least accepted as such. Neither made me feel comfortable. Asian people who wanted to be exclusively with whites gave me the creeps, and most white people who had yellow fever even creeped me out more. Neither seemed healthy to me and left me no place to be either.
The only experience I had living in an all white neighborhood was a BAD one, one full of violence and bullying. And even the one I grew up in became majority black while I was living there. Curious that when I finally moved out, it was first into a majority Latino neighborhood.
I do find major problems with the Model minority stereotype and the Perpetual Foreigner stereotypes, which white people have used to divide and conquer, pat themselves on how they treat blacks, and consequently, Asians. But there is still a deep Yellow Peril sentiment which leads to Racial profiling (in a bad way), bamboo ceilings, and all sorts of racial taxes on Asian-Americans. But my main problem is the complete Amnesia about pre-1980 Asian-American history. It is as if Asian-American history started with the Model Minority stereotype. A whole generation of Asian-Americans grew up thinking that they are some sort of “honorary white”. I can understand how this can affect males even more. On the one hand, they are raised to believe that they are “honorary white” yet are bashed with anti-Asian male messages rampantly.
However, I do not think that way. I know that Asian-Americans are not really honorary whites as they believe. America does not want Asian-Americans to be their leaders in politics, business and education. Blacks achieve a lot more in this regard (I think there is more fear that they are more anti-white than anti-American). If there is a war with an Asian country, Asian-Americans will be treated as the enemy in a heartbeat.
You still did not answer my question about your hostility towards Eurasians / Hapas. Are they mostly the ones in your family (ie, your cousins) or is it a more general thing? It is tough psychologically to have both Mom and Dad bashing Asian men constantly and then step out the door and being treated as an Asian man by a white person. Maybe you can also help your cousins realize what is going on.
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In all marriages the man should attempt to be alpha. Part of this is becoming secure in your masculinity prior to marriage.
My father didn’t have self- esteem. He lacked motivation, security, courage, education, etc. He was naturally vet intelligent despite his lack of schooling, and had amazing artistic talents, from which he derived our measly family income.
He was insecure and extremely, extremely weak. The interracial element caused a great deal of tension, particular because my father would deflect his own fear and self- loathing on to me and my mother, and one way be did this was by condemning our whiteness.
He always envied his one brother who could pass for white, and looked down on his other siblings who like him suffered from alcoholism and drug addiction. With him it was always the white man’s fault, and since I was Scandinavian looking, he never let me forget Tjat it was my failt he suffered. Even though I’m considered handsome by mainstream standards, he let me know he considered me ugly, except for my cheekbones, the only non- white aspect of my appearance.
He hated and envied whites, yet married a woman from Finland, who had blonde hair, blue eyes, and skin the color of white out, and yet somehow blamed me for being white, openly preferring my darker sister, though this didn’t mean much as his abuse scarred her as well.
His whole life was about denial and deflecting blame. Once I got older we had tons of issues. I started to call him on his bs. Bush never forced him to drink or inject drugs. Christian white men never forced him to rob someone at gunpoint. He denied any participation in his own ruin, even after incarceration.
My mother has remained devoted to him in spite if the daft he has destroyed her life. I don’t want to be around him because he’s so psychologically abusive, but his HIV became full blown recently so we have to try to patch things up before his death.
In any marriage the man has to be a strong man for it to work. The added pressure of a multiple- ethnic family demand even more strength from the husband/ father. Sadly, my dad couldn’t play that role, and his drug use and incarceration destroyed our family.
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“I thought it might be interesting (if anyone has the time) to add a little info about Black France. France has a considerable history of segregation, protest, racist violence, as well as culture and community-building, beginning in the latter part of the 18th century. Later on, France symbolized liberation in the experience and intellectual landscape of African Americans at one time. Think of James Baldwin or Miles Davis.”
Indeed. People might do worse than to check out this book.
http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2013/02/february-book-of-month-black-count.html
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Thanks Kiwi and Jefe for your really interesting and considered replies to my comments on the other thread.
Kiwi, on a superficial level I’d say that most women are more concerned with things like the attractiveness, height, education level and income security , rather than the race, of a potential partner. It’s true, for example, that if my husband were younger than me or shorter than me I might not have been as attracted to him – I prefer an older and taller partner. But as I’m only 154cm tall (or short!) height is almost a non issue – I rarely see any man who’s less than 15 cm taller than me.
Jefe, I guess I had some personal curiosity about your views because I remembered you had an Asian father and a white mother. I’m sorry to hear about the difficulties between your parents. One of the reasons why I visit this blog and, more importantly, volunteer for an anti-racism group is because I want to peel away any trace of internalised privilege before I have kids. I still have a lot to learn – an exchange I had with someone on this very blog led me to investigate the way that feminism has marginalised and ignored the concerns of women of colour.
I agree that there is a level of fetishisation in a lot of interracial relationships. On an anecdotal note, I often heard white men in Korea – American men in particular – openly disparage Korean men. Usually these men had Korean girlfriends or wives. I also heard many American women decry the lack of ‘attractive’ (i.e. white) men in Korea despite the millions of tall, successful men passing them on the street every day. On the odd occasion I also met a western woman with a bordering-on-creepy fascination with K-Pop stars.
At the same time Jefe, I wish you weren’t so cynical about the reasons why people might want to learn Mandarin or Korean. Believe it or not, the rest of the world can see that the US is in decline. In 50 years’ time China will have overtaken the US as the world’s largest economy while Korea will continue to cement its reputation as an economic powerhouse. Samsung now sells more devices than Apple. In my view it’s a smart move to learn Mandarin or Korean, just as it’s a smart move for Korean and Chinese students to learn English while it’s still the lingua franca.
You are correct in saying that Australia is more culturally and demographically similar to Canada than the US. Our intermarriage rates really throw the difference into relief:
– 8% first generation Vietnamese Australian men and 16% first gen Vietnamese Australian women marry out of their race.
– 48% of second generation VA men and 49% second generation VA women intermarry.
– 40% of those who intermarry (from both sexes) have partners from other Asian ethnicities.
There’s a slightly different but no less interesting pattern for Chinese Australians:
– 6% first generation Chinese Australian men and 13% first generation Chinese Australian women intermarry.
– 35% second generation CA men and 48% CA women intermarry. Of these, 61% of the men and 67% of the women had an Anglo-Celtic Australian partner.
So the stats are still skewed but the bias against Asian men in Australia seems less strong than in the States. You can read my source here: http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/cpur/files/2012/09/intermarriage-report.pdf
Of course, we still consume a lot of American media. This means we are exposed to the same stereotypes of the sexy, submissive Asian female/effeminate, short Asian man. Obviously this has an extremely negative impact on the self esteem of many Asian Australian men. I personally find it astounding that Hollywood can get away with rubbish like the Ken Jeong characters in the Hangover movies, and theatres are still allowed to show West Side Story.
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@Kiwi, I think you might just be speculating why AM/WF divorce rates are higher (despite having relatively low marriage rates). It is possible, if not probable that white women looking down on their Asian husband might be a factor, but I will not speculate to say that it is THE factor. And I think the emasculating Asian male stereotypes are not coming from just white women. White males and Asian females are also pushing that stereotype. The Asian male in America simply has no control over his image.
When I was growing up I remember trying to make sense of it all. I “sensed” that my mother looked down on my father. Sometimes I could not imagine why she married him (actually I do know – unwanted pregnancy at a time before abortion was legal. And her parents refused to take her in as unwed mother. marriage was illegal in the surrounding states and her home state – no choice except to stay in DC (just like the Lovings). If she got married, my father’s parents could watch me and she could go back to work.)
When I was in university I got hold of the book “The Mississippi Chinese: Between Black and White” by James W. Loewen, author of “Lies My Teacher Told Me” and “Sundown Towns”. I was particularly interested in it because I was trying to learn more about the relationship and attitudes between southern Whites and Chinese-Americans but also because my two aunts settled in the Mississippi delta after WWII and my older cousins grew up there. If I remember correctly, Loewen devotes a whole chapter to interracial relationships among Asians in the Deep South, esp. during the Jim Crow period. He did his research around 1967-1969 around the time of Loving. Later on in university, I did my Asian-American studies project on the Mississippi Chinese and used Loewen’s book as a reference.
For many decades it was a bachelor group in Mississippi – they lived on top of their store and had no kids. Those that got married at all took black wives and sent them to the colored schools. After the 1906 San Francisco earthquake there was a proliferation of “paper sons”. By around 1920, they started to smuggle in women and claimed that their birth records got burned in the earthquake. By 1920, there were American born kids in the Delta. After the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943, many of the men went to China to get a wife. By the late 40s – 50s, there was a large community. That is when my older cousins were born.
But as there was a larger community, that posed a problem under Jim Crow. In the 1920s, they were “colored”. By the mid-late 1940s, most had started to attend the white schools. But they were forced to expel from the community the Chinese men who took black wives. The only possible exceptions were the Chinese men who took mixed Chinese/black wives. He said that in some cases, the white community could claim that they assumed that their 3/4 Chinese children were just “Chinese”, and could overlook their attending a white church or white cinema, etc.. I promised Abagond I would do a post on this topic.
Anyhow, he noted that in nearly all of the Chinese-Chinese households that he surveyed, the husband functioned more or less as the traditional dominant head of household. In the several dozen Chinese husband / black wife households that he researched, he said the same was true. He found a few instances of Chinese marrying Mexicans or Choctaw Indians and he said, in those households the husband still played the dominant role. The exception, he noted, was in the half dozen or so households he found with Chinese husbands and white common law wives (marriage was illegal of course). He said in every single one of those households he found constant marital strife, which he attributed to the white wife refusing to acknowledge or accept any authority or opinion from her lower racial status husband (despite his being the breadwinner).
As a teenager reading this, this gave me food for thought as my mother was from the Deep South also. I asked myself why on earth would an Asian-American man want to marry a white woman and live like that. When I was a young child, there were only about 4-5 Chinese-American men married to white women in the entire DC/MD/VA metro area. It was so rare that they all knew each other. In fact, it was because that they knew the 2-3 families that moved to Maryland before the law was repealed – they felt MD was a bit more liberal than VA, where NONE of them lived (if you recall, the Lovings were arrested and jailed in VA). Asians in VA were still labelled as “colored” even into the 1960s. But I tell you, MD was NOT a bowl of cherries either. My family could still could not even go and rent an apartment. My father had a lot of Filipino-American friends when I was growing up. Some of the men took white wives, but the majority of them ended up divorcing them also.
My father got into the Journeyman Electrician trade through a couple white friends who vouched for him for being “not colored”. In the DC area, it was definitely a good ole southern boy network. Marrying a white southern girl would make him more acceptable to the “brothers”. He was the token non-white for 15 years before he felt comfortable trying to get some Asian-American men in as an apprentice. By that time (1970s), the union was under heavy pressure to admit blacks. In the 1970s, DC had the highest % black of any city and metro area in the entire country, but there was not one single black electrician in over 2000 union members. That system broke by the mid-70s, and they were forced to admit blacks. I remember that my father made sure that he made anti-black remarks in front of his white colleagues just to show that he was on their side. If he didn’t, they would call him g**k and haze him. I realized later that he was under so much pressure that when he came home to a white woman who did not respect him, he took it out on her.
I have seen that in several other Asian husband / white wife households, the wives really did not respect their husbands (this is MY anecdotal experience, not a scientific research study). Now, I am sure there are exceptions out there. I think I remember seeing one family where the wife was this really uneducated poor white southerner and if her husband was a decent breadwinner, maybe this was already better than the other people in her family and there was less of that type of marital strife. If the husband were really highly educated and made a lot of money, maybe there would be a larger pool of white women willing to marry him. But growing up, I saw almost no model of a white woman respecting her Asian husband.
I wish I could say that the 2010s is way beyond that. After all, Jim crow and anti-miscegenation were abolished in the 1960s. AW marry WM in the millions now (as opposed to being able to count it on one hand). But after seeing how Asian male bashing is, in some ways, even WORSE than 50 years ago, I am not sure that it has improved. What makes it worse is that Asian women have joined the Asian male bashing bandwagon along with whites, making men even more powerless. I don’t think Asian women bashed Asian men so much 50 years ago. It wasn’t until the 1990s that stuff like the Joy Luck Club could be so popular. Asian-American women must have lapped that stuff up like syrup and then run straight into the arms of a white man (the behavior which, after all, had been validated by an award winning book).
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@wordynerdygirl
I have never in my life seen a white person able to do this. There is still this lingering sense of privilege that I have seen in pretty much every white person I have met, both in America and Asia (and even in my slight experience with Australia and Europe). If you can do it, great. The only way I can imagine a white person actually able to do it is if they were raised and educated in a non-white non-western environment. Because every single piece of western education and media that I have seen used, whether on white or non-white audience, makes an implicit assumption that white people are the good guys of history, the West is on top, etc. etc. etc. That kind of education is good at making white people feel good about themselves that I have yet to see any white person willing to give that up.
Of course I am not so cynical that white people studying Asian languages do it for fetish purposes. I used to be a teaching assistant for the Chinese dept at university in Massachusetts, I won an award from the Japan foundation to study in Japan and I managed the language tables for several years for the American chamber of commerce in HK. I am a very big promoter of that. I think Americans are stupid for not learning Asian languages. I already knew the USA needed to do this even back in the 1980s. But Australia is even much more keen about that. They are surrounded by Asia, their biggest non-English languages are Asian languages and I even watched Kevin Rudd do interviews completely in Mandarin – even better than Jon Huntsman. I wish the USA leaders and politicians can do that.
And I have noticed that in Asia, unmarried white women tend to stay single. Some that were married to white men had their husband leave them for an Asian woman. A white woman in Asia will have very restricted dating choices. There are millions of men in Asia, but if most of the white men chase after Asian women, there is not going to be much choice of white men left. And I see very few white women, even in Asia, really really willing to be a wife to an Asian man in Asia. Few will accept the role.
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@ jefe you realise I am Australian, right? Not American.
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@wng, Of course, I already remarked about your Australian origin. My prior reply was to Kiwi about the USA. The reply to you was independent of where you are located or originate from (eg, USA, Asia, Australia, etc.).
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@ jefe Kevin Rudd was a fantastic PM. Not sure if you know this but he was a diplomat in China for many years and his son in law is Chinese Australian.
Unfortunately he lost the election in September. We now have one of the most reactionary, xenophobic and horrible Prime Ministers in Australia’s history – Tony Abbott. One of his very first acts was to archive the Asian Century White Paper – a very fine piece of policy work that Kevin Rudd and his successor (and predecessor – he was a two time PM) sponsored. One of the main aims of the paper was to ensure every Australian child had the opportunity to learn an Asian language. Another was to pair each Australian school with another school in Asia for student exchange/collaborative learning opportunities.
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Yes, Australia more and more perceives itself as being part of Asia. I have noticed that. The USA does not see themselves as intimately connected to Asia.
I could envision Australia evolving into a mixed white /Asian society by the end of the 21st century – maybe like Singapore with a higher white content. They will still be a western English speaking society but will incorporate Asians more into their greater society.
But, it seems that not all Australians want that for their future. They are highly wedded to their Aussieness that the Asian Century is an assault to traditional white Aussie self identity.
But I think that is temporary. The trend for Australia is not to revert to pre-70s Aussie white only society. I think the current xenophobia will be temporary, unless they manage to convince Asian Australians to think of themselves as white Aussies.
The USA is moving towards a white minority country too, and at a much faster pace than Australia. I think that is the problem with the right of the Republican party. They feel like they are “losing” their country. Any move to stop the trend will be temporary. At one stage, they will be left behind.
I know many n Australia see their future as being part of Asia, but it still impressed me as an overwhelmingly “white” place when I visited there, at least compared to the USA. I got the impression that Melbourne and Sydney were something like 90% white and 8% Asian when I went there (and those are the places with high nonwhite populations). Except for places like Burlington, VT or Boise, ID, the USA is nowhere near that. And Australia is so unpopulated. The country is about the size of the 48 contiguous USA states but has a population roughly equivalent to Metropolitan New York City. The Asian-American population of metropolitan New York city is at least as large, if not larger than the entire country of Australia. Metro Sydney plus Melbourne has a population similar to Metro Washington, DC plus Baltimore, which are only 35-40 mins. / 60km apart yet is only about half white.
Canada does not have a large black or Latino population, but feels much more populated and less white than Australia.
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Asplund said:
“In all marriages the man should attempt to be alpha.”
that’s a rough road and probably will be a epic fail, a marraige is faith primarily and a partnership that’s hard to find that 50/50
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VV4, after all I have laid out, you still think assimilation is a factor, you are blind…assimilate into what?You dont give up black beans and rice for Mcdonalds
Kiwi, I didnt know you were in 8th grade, and snot running down your nose…when you grow up, you can research the origins of some of the rhetoric you bite on so much
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@ Asplund
It took me a while to respond to this because I was trying to find a way of not coming off as rude, so I would hope you will not take this comment as such given our history on these boards.
He married your mother because he believed it would give him a leg up in society (not saying this to be disrespectful). He felt somehow it made him better than others, but inside he hated that he was still not white. Not good enough. Men like that should never marry. EVER.
Anyway I think you should come to some kind of reconciliation with him. Perhaps it will give you closure because believe it or not…the scars he put on you show up a lot in what you say here. I won’t go into detail as to what I noticed because I don’t want you to take offense, but perhaps letting go of that anger with him will be healing.
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Propaganda has little to do with truth and much more to do with clouding someone’s judgement..
I believe that some white men have a vested interest in using media to demasculinize Asian men so that they can have greater acess to Asian women. If white men can succeed in clouding the judgement of Asian women against the men who are responsible for their upbringing, culture, etc then he doesn’t have to compete with said Asian men for an Asian wife/partner. If things were on an equal playing ground, white people probably wouldn’t do so well in the IR dating/marriage arena.
White women really have nothing to gain by pairing Asian women with white men–therefore they are not the ones responsible for Asian male “bashing”…
However, when Blacks are involved, i have observed quite the opposite.
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@Jefe
Fascinating post (in reference to the post regarding The Mississippi Chinese: Between Black and White).
@Asplund
This story is all too common, in various forms of extremity. Just forgive him, for your own emotional well being. And once you’ve come to terms with it, (if you haven’t already), forget it, reject it from your train of thought, and don’t meditate on it, anymore. That doesn’t mean you should neglect approaching the situation with wisdom and enough distance for self preservation’s sake, but enough so that it is no longer part of your emotional memory, where it can dictate your life, where there’s any impact, at all, just by the sheer intensity of the trauma.
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Lots of Black guys i know personally think like that, but oddly never have romantic relationships with white women…
As said earlier, this is all about propaganda. The image of white women in popular culture is that of a woman who is cooperative, bubbly and easy-going. Whether this is true or not is entirely anecdotal; but in my experience, white women can be the total opposite. Even white friendgirls that i have laugh hysterically when i tell them how Black men perceive them–they think the worship is foolish.(Although, i think they know how it benefits them socially.) Hanging with young white women my age–i learned several things:
1. They get drunk and like it (at least the ones i know)
2. They don’t care about appearing feminine unless they seek to gain something from a male peer
3. They swear like sailors
4. They get a kick out of bossing others around (even their elders!)
It’s quite funny actually because most of my Black friendgirls are very, very conservative when we go out. One drink may be pushing it for them and they always wear skirts or dresses even we are having a girls night out.
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@Kiwi
You’re right. Something is wrong with the reasoning. Well, “living in a white world” may make it more possible, but it does nothing to explain the sex-linked interracial imbalance. There is an undercurrent of black female and Asian male bashing prevalent in the USA. It is rampant in the media and daily discourse. And some people try to explain it in terms of “race and sexual selection” theories. However, these AF/WM and WF/BM pairings are actually a recent post-Loving post-80s trend. Pre-70s, both were VERY uncommon. Interracial dating and sex was uncommon anyhow during Jim Crow, but when it did occur, it was WM/BF and AM with either BF or WF. “Living in a white world” does little to explain the phenomenon.
You know in the pre-Loving era they would gang up and do something violent. (You previously reminded us of the Watsonville Riots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watsonville_Riots)).So, they are still doing it, they are just not allowed to take it to the violent extreme of 50+ years ago.
By the way, I have heard many anecdotal accounts of Mainland Chinese men snickering, hectoring and glaring when they walk past a “Westerner” talking to a Mainland Chinese woman. But one account from a friend strikes me most. His father is from central Shandong province, his mother is a white woman from Oregon. They married in Seattle, but later divorced (what else is new!). Anyhow, the father remarried a woman from Taiwan (of mainland origin) and his mom remarried a white guy (and both are still married 30 years later). The father had several kids with his 2nd wife who grew up in Seattle. The guy I know lived and worked in Shanghai for many years, and his sister came to study at one point. He said Mainland Chinese men were always hectoring him about white guys taking their women when he was merely with his sister.
He told me people mistook him for Uighur also but he never said they hectored him for being Uighur with a Chinese woman. Now THAT would be a dangerous situation.
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@Kiwi,
I wish more Americans were. I strongly suggest that you consider taking some Asian-American history or studies courses if you are still studying (or even if you are not). You might want to take some Black Studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies too.
It will help you map 1848 to 1882 to 1906 to 1927 to 1943 to 1965 to 1982 to 1995 to 2012. It seems like they are now confounded in your head.
I am not really old enough to actually remember pre-civil rights. In fact, I only heard bits and pieces from my parents but I realized I needed to learn further to understand the true picture. So many things were simply unspoken. However, some things only make sense when you examine that era.
I am old enough to remember when “Asian” was not a term used and how it got used to replace the prior terms. I can remember when AF/WM pairings were almost non-existent, and were almost always white military man with Asian war bride. I first learned “Hapa” from my Hawaiian schoolmates at university (the ones who were schoolmates of Obama at Punahou, no less). At that time its usage had not yet spread to the Mainland. I remember before the Model Minority Stereotype was really popular (it was really pushed in the 1980s after the need to revilify blacks in the post-Affirmative Action period). Some of the Asian American stereotypes are fairly new, at least post 80s. – I think they are promoted to dehumanize Asians after being “honoured” under the Model Minority stereotype.
Suggest that you actually go do a historical expedition. Go take an Asian American studies course and do a project about how Asian-American stereotypes have changed from 1852-2012. It will give you the chance to go look at some original sources. Maybe focus on US stereotypes about Asian males and its effect on interracial relationships to narrow your focus and target your interest.
Do you know about Yung Wing, the first Chinese to graduate from an American university (Yale) in 1854? Later he received an honorary doctorate of law from Yale in 1876. He was naturalized as a US citizen in 1852 and married a white American woman as there were no anti-miscegenation laws at that time and no laws barring Asians from obtaining US citizenship. He had 2 sons with her. He brought many students from China to come to study in the USA. After 50 years of living life as a US citizen, he was stripped of his citizenship in 1902, which effectively barred him from seeing his wife and children. He sneaked back in the USA later, but lived his remaining years in poverty and obscurity.
FYI, I think we still have the Yellow Peril stereotype even today. If there has been one stereotype that has been active for the past 150 years, it is that one. Whites have a great need to evoke that stereotype at any beck and call. I see the (morally bankrupt) Asian Atrocity argument as a need to reinforce that stereotype. I even think the Asian male emasculation stereotypes are probably a self-projection to counteract the fear and alarm that the Yellow Peril stereotype invokes.
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Where is the line between just personally being attracted to a the physical characteristics and the cultural of a certain race, and fetishization? Once I reached adulthood, travelled, and was exposed to new people and different cultures, I realized I found Asian men extremely attractive. I fell in love with Japan and China. The landscapes, the history of the culture, the art and cinema, the traditions, the cuisine, and grew to greatly admire its medicinal benefits as a health and fitness junkie. I suppose, if I’m honest, I did sightly romantisize and associate Asian men with “the strong silent type” stereotype. Although the Asian man who was in my life was the polar opposite of all the stereotypes associated with Asian men, which only further proves the stupidity of stereotypes. Lol.
I remember, about a year ago, coming across a number of BW/AM couples in a short period of time. Which was strange to me, as data does not reflect that. Also, despite the stereotypes mentioned, I have come across a great number of both WW and BW, who find Asian men to be extremely attractive. But, once again, the data does not reflect that, like that of AW/WM, which is quite strange.
I remember seeing “The last Samurai,” not too long ago. It was a “White hope story” that really pushed it to the point of being disrespectful. I’m not sure how this movie got a pass upon its release.
Tom Cruise’s character, rebels against the White americans after growing a conscience from slaughtering the Indians. He then decides to fight the Whites, while standing beside the Asians??? What world of fairytales is this?
He kills an Asian man, goes to live in his home with his wife, and then takes her for himself. This aspect didn’t register to me at first, it was just the far fetched nature of a WM giving his life to fight with minorities, that was incredible to me. But then an Asian guy pointed out the line where Tom Cruise’s character says to the AW, “I’m not an Asian man,” when offering to help her clean up, when she refused, explaining that in Asian culture, the men don’t help.
The fact that she was the widow of an Asian man Tom’s character had just killed; the fact that this line precedes the two becoming sexually and romantically involved; the fact that this line was seen as okay in the script, and was said in the deceased Asian man’s home, to his widow, only a short time after he had been killed by Tom’s character. Tom also becomes the father figure to the sons, throughout the course of the movie.
I put my race and gender in that position. Yes, BW/BM, (or with any man), are always shown as dysfunctional, and (take the show “The Wire” for instance), the WW is shown to be the angelic savior of the BM, after having to deal with an overbearing BW. But still, they wouldn’t think of having a WW character, kill and then move in with a BW’s husband and children, become the mother to the children, have the husband swept off his feet by the WW, and upon her kind offer to help him being turned down because it’s not practiced in Black culture, she responds by saying, “don’t worry I’m not a Black woman;” BW would be livid, and rightly so. They would not take it that far, they’d know that would be too obviously offensive.
I didn’t register that until an AM pointed it out to me. He pointed out that this is the continual narrative AM have to put up with. Thinking back, on a number of AM roles in movies, they’re often presented as asexual. Even Bruce Lee was shown running from the nymphomaniac WW. When I thought about this, it made me think about how refreshing it was to see the “foreplay scene” in “Crouching Tiger.” Because I’ve never personally seen AM being presented as sexual adult men in Western cinema before.
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@Ebonymonroe
Thanks. I’ve managed to live a decent life in spite of all that, and since gaming came into the reservation community the whole nation has been transformed and I’ve had less pressure on me due to their being more social services to care for me relatives.
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“Anyway I think you should come to some kind of reconciliation with him. Perhaps it will give you closure because believe it or not…the scars he put on you show up a lot in what you say here. I won’t go into detail as to what I noticed because I don’t want you to take offense, but perhaps letting go of that anger with him will be healing.”
Thanks Sharina- I’ve come to terms with it myself. It’s difficult to establish a decent relationship with him as he is now severely mentally ill and has suffered brain damage due to drug use. But I think I’ve come a long way in overcoming that trauma.
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I hate the Last Samurai due to the sheer ridiculousness of the plot- a samurai was skilled because of a lifetime of training and a warlike moral code. No outsider, no matter how athletic, could adapt that quickly to such a demanding role.
In Japan a number of techniques are employed by Japanese men to try and shutdown foreign men/Japanese women relationships. I’ve had to deal with the following:
1. Insecure Japanese men portraying Japanese women who prefer foreigners as slutty.
2. Japanese men telling me lies- “If you date a woman here, no Japanese man will ever date her.” “Foreigners are way too big to sleep with Japanese women.” etc.
3. The ultimate losers- White American males who have expatriated to Asia because they have better sexual odds there. It’s true they did better there, but since I wasn’t “white and nerdy” those guys shunned me like no get out. I didn’t care though because I still dated a lot of women.
Thinking more on interracial relationships in general- I think its different for men and women. My first true “love” was a black girl who loved my blonde hair. She would be “black” in the outside society but like a lot of citizens she identified as Choctaw, because citizenship is based on ancestry rather than arbitrary racial features.Anyway, she loved my hair because it was totally straight and blond, and I loved her natural black hair. The fact that she was black was alluring-I have to admit that that excited me in the beginning, but over time I became extremely attached to her. In fact it was her who ended the relationship and I was devastated. I don’t really feel like I “used” her or treated her as an object despite my interest in her physically.
At the same time, I can see how a woman might be wary of giving herself to a man of another race. If a man is just viewing a woman as a sex object or “side project” that can have negative emotional implications for many women, at least according to the women in my life. When Japanese women slept with me because I was “exotic” and had blond hair, it didn’t bother me at all. I was not eager for a lifetime commitment at the time and even in Japan there were Japanese women eager for marriage/serious relationships with foreign men.
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Interesting how quite a few people discussing their Asian / Black and Asian / White relationships come out of the woodwork. I suppose I have my own feelings about fetishization and a lot of people, esp. those with “yellow fever” will have their own. At this stage it is all just anecdotal so I am not sure we can make any definitive remarks about it.
Ebonymonroe relates a case where a man pointed out to her how a popular Hollywood movie that she had enjoyed (because of its setting and period in history) was actually an Asian male bashing mighty whit3y white savior movie. Time after time the Asian male is depicted as a cardboard figure that is either just “evil” or just woefully immature. He is never depicted as a real man. Only a white person can come in and save the day.
Asplund condemns the movie for quite a different reason. It is just impossible to fathom that white people can accomplish amazing feats of trick in a short period of time that non-whites can do. It sounds similar to how intricate developed civilizations could form in equatorial Africa, all without white man’s help. Simply amazing! So he condemns it for being unrealistic in that sense (but a sense of unrealism from a certain point of view).
But in the sense that we are discussing on this thread, he totally skipped over. It is almost like he is patting himself on the back for overcoming those paper thin barriers that men in Japan tried to erect to dissuade him from dating and laying “their” women. It is like a tacit support of the sort of Asian male bashing that Ebonymonroe brought up earlier.
I do think it is possible that Asian women in Asia might find white men exotic and alluring without feeling the need to bash Asian men. But in America, most Asian-American women do not find white men exotic – they have seen them every day and grew up with them. So to avoid admitting the obvious self-internalized racism they need to join the white men in bashing Asian men (make it sex-based, not race-based) and supporting a Hollywood and media that does the same. Obviously white women bash them too otherwise they would be dating them more. Or maybe they subconsciously know that they will have barriers to leadership (politics, business, academia) and media portrayal and they do not know how to deal with their husbands being bashed by everyone else. Of course YMMV :P.
@Kiwi, to address a point you asked about the evolution of stereotypes, I think America has always bashed Asians (at least for the past 150 years). But before it was not a sex-based bashing, but a more general Yellow Peril type of bashing. If you recall, Anna May Wong was not allowed to play any role that was not villainous – no romantic or leading roles. She was even turned down to play the wife role in the Good Earth as they had cast a white man in the role as the Chinese husband (Yellowface is another issue). But post 80s the bashing seems to be much more towards males. It seems like white men started to find AW attractive as desirable as partners. Asian women can now play romantic roles opposite white men. They can be their co-anchors on the evening news. But there is a cognitive dissonance there – how can white men bash Asians yet seek Asian female partners? Answer: make it sex-linked race bashing. Emasculate them.
I suppose this is somewhat analogous to BW bashing by black men, esp. by those who date white women. It’s not about being black. It’s about black women. Defeminize them.
That is why I really feel empathy particularly for the Hapa boy who has an Asian male bashing white father and an Asian male bashing Asian mother, but who gets mistaken as Asian by most white people. He feels like he has to bash Asian men too. After all, that is all he has been taught. And he has to display it publicly lest he get bashed too (ie, “I am not one of them. I bash them too!”)
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Kiwi…yeah, really interesting how it ticks you off if white men stare at you for being with a white woman…at that point you are looking in a mirror
so you dont like getting stared at just for talking to a white woman…but give your stink stare at an Asian woman with a white man..or feel queasy…you got issues…
2 Asian women out of 10 means the over whelming majority of Asian women are with Asian men…what is your problem? You need to ask youself why you are twisting yourself in knots for nothing…the majority of asian women would be with you, no problem
wow, all i ca say is, this discusion gets more tied up with every inch
so much stereyotyping, generalisations, and media driven
look, anyone, if you are hung up on statistics, better not mess with interracial relationships
if you have any hang ups about white people and what they have done to your ethnic background, better not have interracial relationships with them
if you are using the media as your guide, and celebrities lives are helping make your judgements, better not get involved interracialy..you know, the people who put out the media, who are very small numbers, probably most of them dont know about interracial relationships either
otherwise , all these pshycho analysis and generalisations , and just plain uptightnes, are directed at a small percentage of the population…very strange and telling
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Check your stats. That sounds like the AW/WM as a percentage of all interracial marriage. If you look at American born Asian women and white men, the figure is closer to 50%.
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“23 percent of Asian women..”
how about phuc the stats, jefe, that is my point
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Jefe-
There’s a big difference between Japanese men and American men of Japanese descent. One group are fellow Americans, and some (not all by any means) of the other group tend to cockblock(unsuccessfully) at every turn, similar to how some whites try to cockblock black men with white women. As far as I’m concerned, I regard Japanese male cockblockers just as vile as the white ones insulting Kiwi.
I don’t really get why people can’t just follow their instincts on this issue. Free it up and let things fall where they will.
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Abagond-
Why is my comment in moderation? I was under the impression I was following the rules?
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letg me tell you something else about your constant one way depiction, too, jefe, you talk about the Japanese internment, how you never saw anything about it
well I as a young kid, would see all the time on chicago TV the movie that addressed the Japanese Internment very powerfully, “From Here To Eternity” with Jeff Hunter, and it made an impresion on me, obviously a group of white men decided to invest a lot of money to make a movie about it, and , white male tv programmers in chicgo at that time decided to run it all the time to make the point
42 million people died in world war two, thousands of Americans lost their lives, there were huge amounts of adjusting to make by huge amounts of people…there are millions whose story are lost in the holocaust , because the jewish story gets a bigger spotlight…and Im not judging that either…its a huge human tragedy with millions and millions of stories that carry right over into today, what with the problems of israel in the Middle east
yet this movie was made and demonstrated in a big way
and, Jefe, I have caught errors in your research and studies, its not bunched up panties, its hard core reality , you are not on the money, so I have to be skeptacal on any studies you bring in
and here are you butchering statistics in favor of antiinterracial a
stereyotypes…I see through you
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…so why is that comment in moderation?..id like to know so I dont make this mistake again
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why did our comments get flagged, i tried carefully to not get flagged? id like to be able to get a post through without getting flagged…you have one sitting for 24 hours on the asia atricity thread…id just like to know what the words that got flagged were
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@Asplund
When you say reservation, are you talking about Native American reservations?
As far as your experiences with your dad, coming from both a biracial blood family and a biracial family in law, I can tell you from experience that this is one of the reasons why marrying for love and not for self loathing, is so very important. I have experienced and know of too many situations where the less ethnic looking child/siblings are treated either far superior, or with great contempt because of it. Sadly, this is what many individuals do: they marry into another race, (usually less ethnic), to escape themselves, but it doesn’t work, because they’re not escaping their own skin via marriage. And these problems always manifest later on, in some way. It’s most unfortunate when the children are the source of which the manifestation is projected. Abagond did a post about internalized racism, noting the various health, and social statistics, that have been found to be a consequence to such a psychological “condition/ing.” That’s why, from experience, (referring to my own life, not a generalization of a race and gender), when I have met BM who. . .
A. Are too fixated on the fact that my mother isn’t Black
B. Spend long periods of time brainstorming on what our hypothetical future children’s hair texture will be like or. . .
C. Continually introduce me as mixed race straight after my name, to friends and family, as though it is my surname, and as though it is something that makes me far more valuable as a woman. . .
I run like the wind.
A Blonde eh? All my ex boyfriends who are White were long haired blondes. Don’t know why that is. Think I had a certain eye for the Brad Pitt “Legends of the fall,” and “teenaged River Phoenix types.” (Tilts head back and drools like Homer Simpson.)
Perhaps as long as it’s not based on hating your own counterpart, or based on viewing your across-the-race-line-partner as “a thing,” maybe sometimes it’s just a matter of something being foreign to one, and in that way, unusual and beautiful.
It’s a sensitive area to tread. I know a married BW/non BM couple, and he confessed to one of the things he found most fascinating about her, being her hair texture. And I know WM I’ve dated seemed to be particularly fascinated by my backside.
That seems to be the line that some people feel is too thin for comfort. Grasping the line between finding “different” beautiful, and that of fetishization.
@Kiwi
Don’t worry about the length of your posts, mines are never any better. I believe what you say. I’d even add to that. From personal experience, in my teens, in school, my best friend was an Asian girl. I noticed she was treated like a subordinate by the White girls, in school. I remember confronting one of the White girls who had been picking on her. When it got back to my friend, she was greatly distressed. She would have preferred I had not said anything, at all. No matter how much I told her I’d defend her, she was so frightened of them that she couldn’t fathom the thought of them being challenged over the way she was being treated. I also once overheard a White woman mocking and talking down about Asian women. She seemed to be coming from an angle of resentment and feeling threatened over the idea that Asian women are desirable, for some reason. White racism against Asians had never really occurred to me.
The Asian guy I was seeing would not put up with that. I couldn’t imagine anyone being stup!d enough to pull that with him. (He was from the army.) Lol.
The thought of your female counterparts suffering racism themselves and yet turning around and buying into stereotypes pushed through Western narratives that degrade Asian men, is most unsettling. As a Black woman, trust me, I know what that’s like. It’s hypocrisy, and it’s extremely weak when one understands the deception of the narrative pushed on them and actively rejecting it, all the while absorbing the paradigm of the opposite gender of the same group.
I did come across a recent study that found Asian women are beginning to marry in more now, however. Hopefully the tide is turning.
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@Kiwi
It sounds as if “the model minority” stereotype, actually works to give Whites a sense of security, and comfort in maintaining a sense of superiority. And, perhaps, at times, given members of the Asian community, a sense of complacency in challenging their injustices. That’s a narrow box.
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Jefe, your willingness to defend a false statistic you figured out in your head, that favors antiinterracial sex rationalisations , just reinforces what I know to be true of your real inner feelings
You thought I was uptight about pointing out your statistics and research conclusions on Brazil, but no, not uptight at all, it just proves you are not acurate…I see through you
the problem with “I know people etc…” is that I know just as many people who dont behave that way…as a matter of fact , most of the generalisations I hear on here leave me dumbfounded about them, since I see so little real life examples…I dont live in cupertino, but , I never noticed asian women coming on to me any more than anyother women
there is no black woman I have ever dated who talked bad about black men…ever..if anything they defended black men
the problem with these generalisations is they start to stick…’oh, they raise their kids to hate the non white part..’
nothing could be farther from the truth in my relationship
people on here hardly know enough interracial reletionships with kids to make a real statement about it at all…its all just conjecture …and as an actual person in a long term interracial relationship that actualy raised our son to adulthood, these generalisations sound absurd and far from any actual reality you could say was the truth
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@ Asplund I’m not trying to be hurtful but your comments about Japan reminded me a little of an American guy I worked with in Korea. He would constantly complain about being stared at by Korean men when he hit on Korean women. He was genuinely horrified that he, of all people, could be at the other end of what he termed ‘racism’.
Yet the same guy who squealed about racism was quite happy to criticise Korean men. He bored the rest of us with his endless anecdotes about the clothes Korean men wore, about their hairstyles (which he thought were less manly than his buzz cut) and how Korean women appreciated being ‘taken care of’ by a ‘real man’.
I realise that your experience is not directly comparable as you’re of mixed race yourself. But I think some of the attitudes you express about Asian men and culture are similar.
@ jefe I do understand what you’re saying about fetishisation. And while I think Australia is more tolerant in some ways that the US I realise that it’s still a really racist place.
I’ve become and more aware of this since being with my husband – on multiple occasions we’ve been abused by (usually drunk) Anglo Aussie guys about our relationship. Each time the abuser hurled racial epithets at my husband and termed me a four letter word. Again, the irony is many of these men would probably have no objection to dating an Asian woman themselves.
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@ B.R.
Not sure why the second got blocked. The first one used cock (cockroaches). I also moderate some of your respellings of moderated words.
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@ jefe and by the way, I really hope you’re not characterising me as one of the people with ‘yellow fever’ who are apparently coming out of the woodwork.
I didn’t spend my whole childhood in Australia. I was actually born in Canada and my family travelled widely across Asia because of my father’s job. My sister’s married to a Singaporean Chinese guy and my brother’s now engaged to an Indian Australian – so we buck the stereotypes in terms of traditional interracial marriage pairings.
Of course, a diverse family does not equate to freedom from racism. I did the IAT today and my results revealed a slight preference for white faces. Apparently this is a better result than most but obviously I’m still a racist, even though I didn’t consciously realise this was the case.
Like I said before, I still have a lot of work to do.
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@Kiwi,
Just found about a book published in 2013:
“Eurasian: Mixed Identities in the United States, China, and Hong Kong, 1842-1943” by Emma Jinhua Teng, University of California press. Maybe it will give you insight into the stereotypes that Chinese and Americans had of each other at that time and their attitudes towards white / Asian marriages (and to a limited extent, re: relationships with blacks).
I don’t have hold of this book, so I cannot really comment about it. But it does mention that it had been occurring on both sides of the Pacific since the 19th century. Many of the Chinese in South China and HK are actually of multi-racial descent, as well as white people in the US, and can trace their origins to those interchanges 100-150 years ago.
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Jefe:
Here we have yet another “everybody does it” issue. On numerous occasions I’ve received dagger glances from men for chatting up “their women”.
In my own personal experience, Vietnamese and Chinese guys were the most territorial, while Japanese fellows tended to be more laid back and congenial and would even try to help you score.
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Hmmm,
I’m going to jump in now because i feel it “safe” to do so…
I read what everyone is saying about media portrayals of Black women and Asian men, however; that is slowly changing and here are my theories about why:
1. American white women are grower fatter, and even if they are not fat, many of them are starting to prefer being married without having kids…so, it is not surprising that shows like Scandal, Sleepy Hollow and other shows with a Black female lead and a white male lead are popping up. Because television ultimately has the power to socialize and prepare a society for what is about to take place,the shows are really for heterosexual white men who have already wanted to do this, but just needed the push to go ahead and pursue it. (Yes, white men have ALWAYS wanted this–today’s tv commercials, shows and advertising campaigns should make this clear). The defeminization of Black women (mammy, Sapphire) was socially engineered by whites who feared white women would lose their places.
2. Asian men’s images are changing as well–and i have seen some very, very attractive Asian men hosting shows on PBS (where he is doing masculine things)–which is why in the last few years there has been a small surge of Asian women marrying Asian men–if they are smart they had better.
3. As the number of non white Hispanic, African, and Asian populations increase in the U.S., white people will slowly begin losing their “preferred partner” in IRR status. More and more people of color will choose each other as opposed to going straight to whites. Its already happening as i know many Black women married to or engaged to Asian and non white Hispanic men.
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@wordynerdygirl, hope you will share more of your experience.
Well, it seems like people started to admit their interracial liaisons with Asians recently, but you were always open and upfront about your situation (ie, not coming out of the woodwork).
“Yellow fever” is another topic. But there are plenty of other websites out there which appeal to those stricken with that disease. It is still nice to learn how people feel about the idea of “Yellow Fever”. I have my own set of POV about that issue which have probably been stained by my own experiences.
I have yet to meet a white person who was educated by whites in a western country using western educational materials who did not pick up some sense of “white privilege” and adopt it to some extent. It seems like all books and teaching are built around communicating how white people are the good guys of history, or at least better than the others. I have been brainwashed by the same educational content. But, at least I acknowledge that I have been too and still exhibit effects from that education. It would be refreshing to meet not only whites, but other western-educated people who acknowledge and question their brainwashing.
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Ok, Abagond, I apreciete your letting me know…yes, i could see how my misspelling could cause havoc
Jefe, you are like a jellyfish..you pretty much mocked at how could I ever tie in black nationalist antiinterracial rhetoric with them also aligning with Mao..you were almost giddy playing to the gallery,..and Kiwi threw in mocking that I could also tie it in with attitudes against Armstrong and tap
yet, i did just that, tied it in blatently and unquestiongly, I brought it in straight from Cleaver himself…and implications pf Newton himself…Kiwi obviosly knows nothing of what was going on then, but, you claimed that you took black history studies…or something, at the same time claiming black american culture is weak…what gives here? I already said, the black political trajectory was not my strong point, but I have a better grasp of what actualy happened back then than anyone on here….and not by my claim or wish or anything…I just know the truth about it, and I see a lot of misrepresentation of it, misapropriation of rhetoric from back then and just plain misunderstanding of the dynamics going on back then…shrouded in misinformation…all i did was bring in real papers made back then and referances to in depth books on the subject of interracial sex attitudes back then…that only agrees with exactly what i said was going on
yet, you go on, just pretending like I didnt just smash your weak arguments and mockings into the ground
get some backbone and actualy deal with the facts Ive brought in..Kiwi is lost in his own personal resentments…when he grows up, he may get past his personal dating frustrations and then be able to address white racism against Asians in a more true fasion…I always like the true facts about white racism against Asians, but carrying that over into interracial sex resentments , filled with hypocracies, just takes it to a low leval…based on statistics that dont really mean anything and media feedback that is as ignorant about interracial sex as anyone else….
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@ Randy
Do you think that complete access to every woman you desire is a human right or something? Or is that a right exclusive to white men? In that case, I suppose you think that Vietnamese or Korean men should simply back away when you approach women they are also attracted to.
Personally, I would have thought a bit of competition makes the whole courtship ritual more interesting.
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Im not really happy with this “fetish” analogy , also..its not that it doesnt exist, but, too often it becomes just another rationality added to the backdrop of the anti interracial sex flood of negativity..
and it brings into question , how do people really think they can psycho analyse people’s real intentions and inner feelings why they made a choice in their dating life,when they never were certified psycho analisists in the first place.?..that is if you even buy into psycho analisis as being 100 percent valid, which I dont…
I mean, if someone thinks all white people are the oppressor, any poc with a white person represents some kind of power dynamic negative from the start…
they start taking any black person that succeeds in a white envirnment and go ahead and pile on rationalisations of colorisations, uncle tom isms its as to why they have succeeded in a white world
there are no nuances of acknowledgements of the complex dynamics involved
and their sentiments just get fogged in with the people who say they have no real objection but all too willingly site fetishes or unbalanced power dynamic or colorisation, and just starts getting into a big rolling ugly ball full of diseased rationalisations on top of pop psycho analysis..
so , the situations of a few people in interracial relationships become the template for describing them…what gets lost is the millions and millions of interracial relationships that are doing just fine, thank you very much
“fetish”, “jungle fever” ..really , I put with some of these rationalisations, but, they really fall severly short in discussing the true dynamic and what is involved with interracial relationships
I do reccomend people hung up with those issues, to not get involved with interracial relationships, because to even indulge in these kinds of thinking means you go around in the world and if you see an interracial couple , your mind is just going to start running these tired steryotyped down in your head about what could be the truth of that couple…after reading any of this crap on here, Im embarrassed to say I even look at interracial coupled differantly,not in any agreement, but saying “what those people have said is actualy bs…”, but its an unnatural moment of how I am relating to interrational couples in the moment based on my reaction to the utter crap Ive seen on here…even one moment of giving into this crud , to even have to defend interractial couples , in the moment and making a judgement, is just a pure shame and embarassement….
why are people hung up at all about the smaller percentage of their ethnic background dealing with their own personal lives …
if those people make a mistake based on their head , they will suffer the concequenses, that is all that really matters…if they go in for the wrong reasons they will pay…if you dont want to go with another race , you dont even have to worry about it…
what should be examined is how does that white person individualy relates to you culturaly…if they have any hangups, for sure you can expect problems
even still, each situation is like a fingerprint, they all are differant and unique into themselves and simply defy some kind of steryotype and generalisation or psuedo pop psycho analysis…that just feeds like a small river into a big one, into the much bigger negative bs about anti interracial sex crap
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@Jefe
To be honest, I did not enjoy “The last Samurai,” I thought it was a feeble attempt at appropriation. It was just a vehicle for Tom cruise, where it was tailored to give him the license to play dress up, and to bask in the glory of a culture that is not his own. Considering the fact that there are few roles made for Asian actors, it only drove the point home further, by tailoring a role for a White man that should have clearly been played by an Asian man. That is why I labeled it “a White hope story.” I had heard a lot of hype about it over the years, and as a result, sat down to watch it a few months ago, although I struggled through it by about the halfway mark, as I found it to be boring. About 3/4 of the way through the movie, I became increasingly cognizant of the fact that it was racist.
The only thing that went over my head, was that particular line said by the Asian woman widow to the White male lead.
As far as stereotypes, I was simply alluding to the fact that the very stereotypes of Asian men that are projected with the intent of feminization, can actually often be interpreted as being very masculine. The discipline, the sense of honor and tradition, (the bone structure :D), these are all things that fit into the paradigm of the masculine “strong silent type” stereotype. Now I’m not talking about Asian American culture which I have not been exposed to, (assuming there is a significant difference between Asia American, and Japanese and Chinese culture). Also, baring in mind, there isn’t a large Asian population in the UK.
I was simply stating that contrary to popular belief, I have encountered many women, both White and Black, who have interpreted the projected stereotypes of Asian men, intended to feminize, as that of hyper-masculinity. That’s not to say I approve of stereotypes being placed upon peoples in any way, shape, or form.
In my opinion, “The last samurai,” was an act of playing dress up, recreating, and capitalizing off of legendary Asian cinema hallmarks, like, “Fist of legend,” “House of flying dagger,” and “Crouching tiger hidden dragon,” from a Western audience, with a Western White lead, without the quality or the authenticity. I am a big fan of real Asian cinema (not stereotypes played by Asians to entertain the masses). There are many films I have seen over the years that have completely outdone anything I have seen from Western cinema, in a long, long time. I think movies like “Kamikaze girls” and “Memories of Matsuko,” should be played in theatres all around. Particularly in the case of the latter, I feel it should been nominated for and won an Oscar, for its sheer originality and innovative stylized nature, along with its “independent movie” boundlessness. I think the only piece of Asian cinema I’ve seen that I wasn’t blown away by was “Old boy,” and that’s just because it was too much for my senses. But, it seems Western “mainstream” audiences are not able to absorb depictions of the Asian community, unless it is presented through stereotypes. It must always be martial arts. I say this all to clarify my position in my above and to elaborate on stereotypes I touched on, as it pertains to Asian men.
I disliked “The last samurai” for the same reasons I disliked “Memoirs of a Geisha.” It was nothing but stereotypes, and I did not enjoy the romaticization of AW/AF child prostitution.
I don’t believe I have, nor have I ever had yellow fever. My current partner is Black, but the Asian man I was seeing for some time was not because he was Asian. Initially, we were just very good friends. And we were very close, throughout. It was not because he was Asian.
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I think you nailed it.
But what does that mean for persons of Asian descent in western countries who are not in control of the images that are produced for western audiences?
What are the choices?
– whine about it?
– produce stuff yourself (albeit non-mainstream)?
The entire history and culture of Asian-Americans (or Asians in other western countries) has been completely removed from their education curriculum. It is replaced with stereotypes from mainstream media. Well, the same goes for Native American and to large extent, African-American history and culture as well.
How much is taught in the education curricula in the UK about their non-Anglo citizens?
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@phoebeprunelleo
I highly disagree. I find white men ( and women) to be racist 95% of the times. They may be making those shows to be more inclusive but I disagree and I wouldn’t recommend any Black women to date a White male ( as I know it happens) because in my experiences and from what I’ve seen from them, they think black women should feel low and work hard so that no body ( not our own men, not hispanic or even other white men) is interested in a black woman.
Re:
phoebeprunelleo
Hmmm,
I’m going to jump in now because i feel it “safe” to do so…
I read what everyone is saying about media portrayals of Black women and Asian men, however; that is slowly changing and here are my theories about why:
1. American white women are grower fatter, and even if they are not fat, many of them are starting to prefer being married without having kids…so, it is not surprising that shows like Scandal, Sleepy Hollow and other shows with a Black female lead and a white male lead are popping up. Because television ultimately has the power to socialize and prepare a society for what is about to take place,the shows are really for heterosexual white men who have already wanted to do this, but just needed the push to go ahead and pursue it. (Yes, white men have ALWAYS wanted this–today’s tv commercials, shows and advertising campaigns should make this clear). The defeminization of Black women (mammy, Sapphire) was socially engineered by whites who feared white women would lose their places.
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wordynerdygirl:
I don’t think that those instances were examples of individual competition, but rather of “tribal” solidarity. I suspect that such tribalism is not uncommon throughout the world.
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Where have i said white people marrying Blacks and other non-whites made them not racist?
And, when did i “suggest” that Black women marry white men?
Besides that, with or without suggestions– people are going to do settle down with whomever they choose…
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idk my (white) parents were both alphas, very competitive and not a drop of emotion between them, i feel that has something to do with what i see as exhibiting itself within me lately, as i slowly come out of mid-life crisis and alcholoic haze, but
in my dynamic with ‘hood’ or ‘ratchet’ black women, it has been always the woman being a dominant figure, with many stipluations and bylaws especially to be in her ‘house’ as in staying there, and god forbid you mess up, ‘disrespect’ her, or do not earn enough according to her wishes. which is odd, but again, the substance abuse component sort of ‘co-opted’ the normal consumerism that one would find in a standard middle class relationship, very similar though in tone and stuff, although different subject matter.
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2. This blog is not about Evil in General. It is about American racism. Mao’s Great Leap Forward has nothing to do with racism. Ideologically it was communist, not white supremacist.
What I find to be bizarre and comical, is that most white people profess not to understand this. They must suffer from chronic deflection disease. Generally it is a waste of time engaging them.
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^^^*widowed Asian woman to the White male lead
*a significant difference between Asian American, and Japanese and Chinese culture).
*for a Western audience, with a Western White lead,
*particularly in the case of the former, (“Kamikaze girls”), I feel it should have been nominated for, and won an Oscar,
*I say this all to clarify my position in my above post,
@Jefe
Yes, for all minorities, this is the only way. We have to create our own images. In the 90’s (before it became White owned), African Americans had BET, there was also Spike Lee’s film production company “40 acres and a mule.” There was an African American record label which had set up its own Black owned distribution company, to be able to be completely self sufficient, and therefore, not having to have White executives dictate what would be approved, which usually means “will White people (who are the majority, and therefore, the purchasing power), buy this? There is absolutely no other way. It will not happen through White people suddenly becoming open minded. This is the truth all minorities must face.
When I was in school, everything was Western. We were taught nothing about ethnic cultures. Although ancient Egypt was thrown in once, but then we went back to studying the Romans.
@Kiwi
I said I had only come across racism from Whites towards Asians among my AW friends. But a memory just came to me. I once came across a White guy, who, after being asked if he had a problem seeing Asian men with White women, (don’t ask me how this conversation got going, I can’t remember), he said “no,” but. . . He said “he wasn’t happy with the fact that many Asian men objectify White women,” using an example of some internet channel he had come across where Asian men try to get “the digits” from pretty women walking by as a challenge. What struck me was. . .
1. He projected one internet channel on an entire people group and didn’t even flinch about it.
2. The hypocrisy, in how much White men/Western culture
has often reduced Asian women to objects, and yet he had the audacity to compare. If memory serves me right, he actually said “we don’t go around doing that to their women.” Lol.
It was very patronizing, the whole conversation. I’m putting two and two together, and realizing that I saw what you are saying, that day. I saw the sense of superiority in his tone and the ease at which he quickly demonzed Asian men.
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i imagine it must be horribly difficult for a ‘normal’ black woman, because the whole stereotype thing i see is writ large in the hood, and a lot of women play into it, “no money quicker than ho money”, and besides the ‘entertainment’ complex telling us all what to think, under racism, under sexism, it is just really difficult for either member of a committed interracial (especially bw/wm american) relationship to not just get pulled to the side from one way or the other, add on haters round the way, drug dealers, and some early childhood rape issues and/or some prison time and wow that is one mess to deal with, and this is not ‘all’ black women, i am speaking of what i know, the hood/street life.
well i am often a little frustrated and oft-set back but i’m not giving up on finding a nice black woman who will reciprocate my love. that is all.
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my first wife was from the now defunct Roosavelt Taylor homes projects on the south side of Chicago and was nothing like “from the hood…” she was refined, but she was tough underneath
I just love it when people cant peice together the mao thing and black nationalist diologue, and then I bring in several quotes from black nationalists that verifies that is exactly what was happening
I mean people are just going to have to suk on that..or be in some state of denial…i cant help you anymore if you cant see the truth staring you in the face
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I can only imagin that Asian men in Martial arts movies must be classified as steryotype, for sure they dont get the girl, but , when Bruce Lee came on the scene, I think all men of all colors got the impresion that this mostly Asian man could kick their butts if they got in a fight..he married a white woman also and had bi racial kids
I totaly agree the media is horrible with Asian steryotypes, and mostly just not telling Asian stories…but , steryotypes about Asian men being weak? sometimes the logic on here boggles
any war veteran that fought in the Pacific, always praised the courage and fighting abilities of the Japanese solders, those that did the real fighting that is
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dont you remember “Kung Foo Fighting” the song, or some name like that….all because of Bruce Lee….Jet Li almost got Alyaha ( sp, and rest in peice angle) in that movie…and he kicked a lot of tale
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@Asplund
Moving to date out seems strange to me; I mean you can date out just as easily in the US as abroad though there might be less negative reactions to it outside the US.
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@ Ebonymonroe, just for clarification (I haven’t read all comments on this thread), is the school you are referring to in the US?
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Jefe asked Ebonymonroe:
( Non-anglo? Fair enough, but I have usually heard this in the American context, referring to non-Hispanic whites.
To date, I haven’t heard anyone white and English self-describe this way…)
**************************************
In the view of a close teacher friend of mine, diversity — that is, ethnic, national, religious, gender, disability and sexuality differences — was something that had been on the British school curricula menu for some years. According to her, some gains have made during the last 12 years or so, but it’s disjointed.
Why? Because all that talk of diversity and difference in school might not match the lived experiences outside of school, a world which is racist, xenophobic and far, far more ignorant and much more un-accepting about an individual’s identity and culture.
UK nationality and citizenship is a complex and contestable subject. Of course.
For instance, it’s obvious that some people believe that a person can only be English if they some English genetic heritage. If they don’t, then it’s unthinkable/ incomprehensible because when many people speak of “nation”, they seem to mean what it is NOT and what it excludes above all else, rather than what and who it might also include.. This is about exclusion, after all?
Therefore, English-ness is conflated with whiteness just the way nation has been conflated with race.
This is not an “issue” for everyone, though.
To be “British” is not a unitary, agreed quality, like, say “Nordic” — it’s just a construct. And I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing.
I have seen an individual’s identity change with exposure, knowledge and development. Same way, the experience of British-ness is different depending on ethnicity and religion, and different people respond differently to this. It is also a regional issue, too. For some people living in England, the idea of English-ness and British-ness is fluid simply because the economic and political power of Britain is in London.
But if you Irish or Scot, and white, that is not so.
I have been around too many Scots to believe that one-size fits all this, and heard too many Irish, who feel no part of British or English, who refer to the English as a breed apart (in Gaelic “na Sasanaigh”).
Click to access Diversity&Citizenship.pdf
http://www.citizenshipfoundation.org.uk/
In my experience, “English” and “British” is often used interchangeably.
I have seen many black, Asian or multi-ethnic people who may not have any English genetic heritage that they know of, use the words casually.
They simply feel that speaking English and living English is sufficient.
I’ve noticed that on the European continent people are also un-fussy about such nuances.: I once tried telling some French people back in the 1980s that I was British and not English — they looked at each other and one asked me: “You mean you are a Britannique? Why?” He said it sounded “confused” and the rest of them were practically embarrassed on my behalf.
Lol!
Not so different in Germany — you are Engländer or Engländerin.
To those particular Germans, that was my language and where I was from and that was that.
I suppose this was not unlike the surprise I felt around Dutchmen and Dutch women who might be described as “black” or “Asian” — and often multi-ethnic — but who simply self-described as “Dutch”…
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@ Ebonymonroe
The history I was taught by the English in England started off as the Stone Age cavemen and then moved onto the history of the Heptarchy — the old name for Great Britain, the main Anglo-Saxon kingdoms…zzzzz But later, I had the good fortune to be taught about the Spanish and Columbus, touched on the Egyptians, the glory of the British Empire, mention of the Raj, Victoria Falls, etc. There was one particular teacher of English Lit. who told us Elizabeth I wanted to throw out all the “Negroes and blackamoores” from her land.
She told us blacks had been part of Europe and European advancement from Roman times, that there had been black Romans.
I was in awe and fathomed not a word from her mouth.
With time, I learned that history was akin to the Hindu parable a group of the 6 blind men who all touched an elephant to learn what it is like.
Each man feels a different part of the creature, but only one part, such as the trunk or foot.
Afterwards they compare notes and realize they are in complete disagreement!
History teaching might be THE academic subject which has the greatest accountability and potential both for advancement or hinder during school years for any young person of colour. Like, you, I learned that blacks and Asians were shut out from much of my early, formal schooling (as far as I remember).
As an adult I remember children in schools were being offered some token references here and there (such as information about Olaudah Equiano, the Igbo-Nigeria involved in the British movement for the abolition of the slave trade). But people of African descent were by and large only “slaves”.
British Asians only started to appear as refugees from East Africa.
The Asians of my own family were also slaves, Indian and Chinese “coolies”. So, that was all.
Anything of impact and importance, any long history of people of African and Asian origin in Britain, or Europe, as whole, had a silence about it, and this created a sense — a false one — that ethnic diversity was something new.
Sure enough, that played a major part in misleading many white people — and many PoC in other countries, too — into “harking back” or believing that there was some fictional bygone era of an ethnically pure Britain, of what is truly ENGLISH, in the knights and castles.
That of course, carries with it the inexorable conclusion that people are in some sense ‘other’ if they aren’t white.
History, as others have taught me, is not one of those subjects that you can nail down to rock solid meanings and understandings. Times changes and so do our interpretations, both of what is society and culture.
Those developments are being continuously and ever, revised.
And, sometimes, it takes only knowing about an individual, such as William Cuffay, the black Chartist to throw a window open on what we thought we knew of a country: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/cuffay_william.shtml
Another example: John Blanke, one of Henry 8th’s trumpeters, a black musician in Tudor England:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/early_times/blanke.htm
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* both for advancement and hinderance
(typos)
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@ Bulanik: Thanx, for that info.
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@ Mary, welcome — IRRs have always been with us.
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WordNerdyGirl-
From my perspective the man in question was right- Korean men tend to be horribly racist. They run interference like no other. As far as I’m concerned their running interference on a non-Korean is no different than white men in American running interference on a black man with a white woman. Just because it is a white person’s first encounter with receiving racism doesn’t matter. Racism shouldn’t be ok under any circumstances.
V-4- I’ve never moved abroad for any reason other than career. I wouldn’t need to put up with the cultural differences if I was only interested in one thing.
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@ Kiwi
I think that the French (the ones I knew at least, North East of the country) had the notion that a white person or one of African descent could be an American, but that anyone who didn’t fit into that could not really American, hence the (appalling) perpetual foreigner experiences you mention. They saw Americans in a very, very “binary” way.
I don’t doubt that your experience is unique, but did you not encounter numbers of Asian-French when you were in France? (by Asian I also mean South Asians as well as East and Southeast Asians.) I met up with a few — Indians and Chinese and Vietnamese, and mixtures of those ethnicities.
With American whites and blacks, my experience was that their nationality probably came before race in the eyes of the French. For some reason, the Americans were easy to spot. I wish I knew exactly why.
The French always mistook me for being French, for reasons I don’t understand and wasn’t flattered by! LOL.
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oh man miss yvonne is swearing she’ll never pull a knife on me again blah blah blah my presence is requested, not sure what to do, i know what i am probably going to do but…sorry bout the soap opera
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@ Asplund I’m sorry but that is just rubbish.
It’s true that Koreans – like all human beings – stereotype people from other groups.
Hollywood movies imply that American people are happy to slip in and out of bed with one another and as a result a lot of Koreans think that Western men and women are easy. Unfortunately this does mean that some men might look askance at a Korean woman who dates Western guys.
I do NOT agree that a bit of staring equates to the behaviour of white American (and, in my experience, white Australian) men when ‘their’ women date out. Of course there is an element of tribalism in it but I have never, ever heard of a white guy being physically assaulted or racially abused for dating interacially in Korea. You and I both know that this behaviour has happened many times in Western countries.
As an American man you also need to remember your position as a representative of an occupying power. The Korean war was only a few decades ago and a lot of older people in Korea remember the thousands of women who were used by American soldiers and then abandoned with their children. There were also atrocities like the No Gun Ri massacre. Even in the past few years US soldiers based on Korea have committed a number of rapes – obviously this hasn’t helped to dispel the resentment that many Koreans feel about the continuing occupation.
On another note, I know for a fact that you would have been treated very well as a white person compared to other foreigners. Sure, you were probably stared at a lot – but most of the attention would have been friendly. There are a lot of Vietnamese and South East Asian people living in Korea who are treated very differently.
Anyway, as I said earlier in this thread it is not every man’s right to have complete access to every woman he desires. If you hit on an attractive woman you should be prepared for other men to hit on her also.
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@asplund
… and what the heck do you mean by ‘running interference’? Please don’t tell me you’re one of those guys who follows the Game or something.
I also can’t comment on the reaction of white American men to interracial dating between black men and white women. Australia has a very different racial mix – of our population of 23 million there are only a few thousand black people, mostly from Sudan. I live in inner city Sydney and I have only passed a Sudanese person on the street once or twice in the past year or so.
Jefe, re your earlier comments Sydney is a bit more diverse than you think. The whole of Australia is 92% white – that’s true. But Sydney is about 70% white, 10% Middle Eastern, 25% Asian and 5% ‘other’. It’s notoriously difficult to get real states on visible minorities in Australia though as the ABS only collects data on country of origin.
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“and what the heck do you mean by ‘running interference’? Please don’t tell me you’re one of those guys who follows the Game or something.”
I’ve been a player for 20 years, that is, since I was 11. So I don’t follow game. It has flowed from my actions.
“Hollywood movies imply that American people are happy to slip in and out of bed with one another and as a result a lot of Koreans think that Western men and women are easy. Unfortunately this does mean that some men might look askance at a Korean woman who dates Western guys.”
If me and a particular female want to have a sexual relationship and nothing more, it’s nobody’s business but me and her. Think about if you applied the same principle to gay men, how bigoted that would seem. Everyone who is a consenting adult has the right to control their sexuality in my opinion, and that means giving it up for whomsoever he/she chooses.
“I do NOT agree that a bit of staring equates to the behaviour of white American (and, in my experience, white Australian) men when ‘their’ women date out. Of course there is an element of tribalism in it but I have never, ever heard of a white guy being physically assaulted or racially abused for dating interacially in Korea. You and I both know that this behaviour has happened many times in Western countries.”
Koreans are not prone to physical confrontation, at least in my experience. Due to my size that’s true anywhere. I don’t care though. They follow you around, yell in groups, do all sorts of actions to make you feel uncomfortable. I had a guy grab a girl right when I was talking to her. I got in his face and he literally ran away. I know I shouldn’t have but I got fed up with their xenophobia and hatred.Japanese guys have a problem with western men going with Japanese women, but they don’t cross the line like Korean men do.
“As an American man you also need to remember your position as a representative of an occupying power. ”
You can give that up right now. Replace “occupying power” with “savior” and I might accept the statement. We spent blood and treasure first to liberate Korea from Japan, who would still be occupying it without our help, then lost thousands of American lives saving the ROK from communism. Several American presidents have hinted at downsizing forces and you know who’s flipped? The officials of the ROK. They want our troops there more than anyone. I personally want all troops out of Korea, as well as most foreign countries, because I’m sick of stabilizing/protecting foreign populations who are ungrateful for our expenditures of lives. Every soldier in the ROK is there by the request of the ROK government in any case, so we are far from “occupiers” from my point of view.
“On another note, I know for a fact that you would have been treated very well as a white person compared to other foreigners. Sure, you were probably stared at a lot – but most of the attention would have been friendly. There are a lot of Vietnamese and South East Asian people living in Korea who are treated very differently.”
Just because person A assaults person B, doesn’t mean person C shouldn’t be angry about person A flipping him off.
“Anyway, as I said earlier in this thread it is not every man’s right to have complete access to every woman he desires. If you hit on an attractive woman you should be prepared for other men to hit on her also.”
According to whom? So it’s ok to prohibit interracial marriages with white males? Sorry but any man has the right to approach any woman. That’s basic civility. She can accept or reject based on her own desires.
I don’t have a problem with other men hitting on women. I’m not particularly intimidated by anyone. You don’t see me making rules about who can date whom and whining about it. I prefer non-white women. I do not have to be with a white woman if I do not desire one.
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@ Asplund what I see from your comments is that you feel very threatened by Korean men exhibiting what would be termed ‘alpha’ behaviour in a Western country. Why does that bother you? Do you think it might have disrupted some of your preconceived notions about how Asian men should behave?
Surely you also see the hypocrisy of, on the one hand, dating and presumably loving Korean women and on the other despising their brothers and fathers.
I also wasn’t in any way suggesting that you should not have the right to date whomever you please. What I was trying to do is give some context for the staring etc that you were complaining of.
I also find it interesting that you think Koreans should be ‘grateful’ to the US for ‘liberating’ them. Do you really think that the US intervened for purely altruistic reasons? The US has a huge geopolitical advantage through the strategic positioning of its troops in Korea.
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@ asplund and by the way, if you really have been to Korea you would know that the men there are very tall – at least as tall as Americans. I doubt many Korean men would be intimidated by you physically.
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From Wikipedia:
Average height South Korean men – 1.73m
Average height white American men – 1.76m
As I said, not much of a difference.
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The U.S. having more than one motive in liberating S. Korea doesn’t mean that the U.S. are ” occupiers.” The two are not equivalent. The ROK has continually request a U.S. tripwire force, just like the ROK sent troops voluntarily to S. Vietnam.
The ” average ” Korean and ” average” white Amerucan are both very small to me. I’m mixed Choctaw and Finnish. I’m 6’9″, 304 lbs. I’m never intimidated. Maybe that time I got Shaq’s autograph.
My dad experienced the sane bs from Finnish men when he met my mother. They called him ” Redskin” and tried to run interference. Didn’t work then doesn’t work now.
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well im gone home again wish me luck
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@Bulanik,
Is there a term that people use to refer to Britons who are descendant or primarily descendant of the aboriginal peoples that occupied Britain pre-British empire, or who identify themselves as such?
I suppose for US, Canada, Australia, it is different, as, whereas they are seen as the mainstream culture, they are not seen as the “native peoples” In the USA, they refer to them as Anglo-American, in Australia as Aussie.
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@ebonymonroe,
I run like the wind too when people did things like that. People treated me like there was something wrong with me for doing that.
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@Kiwi
I felt it both in Europe and in Asia – Perpetual Foreigner is prevalent in both. Less so in Brazil.
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@Bulanik
So, do you think a Briton will look at someone and unconsciously categorize them as “descendant of slave” even though they do not voice that term? But, in Briton, slaves came from the former colonies, so are they seen as somehow not “local”? (I don’t mean local in the sense of living / residing / grown up in the local area, but in the sense of deriving from somewhere outside.
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Kiwi , it is your paranoid imagination that thinks I make any distintion between men and women…the same when you said I thought Jefe wasnt American and you steryotyped me…that is a nasty habit of yours ..and makes you a chump…wipe the snot out of your nose and grow up…
You and Jefe ran the hide behind your poc wife and son crap too, how phuced up of you to do that also…how about kiss my behind
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Wow 😮
Now that puts some of their comments in perspective.
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@Legion
It is a so common. I have yet to meet any multiracial person who has not experienced that stuff to one degree or another.
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Asplund@ “Third Point: The comments sections are utterly anti-white. There are also all sorts of tin-foil hat theories that make whites scapegoats for some black womens’ romantic unhappiness. Look at how quickly I was called a racist simply for pointing out the truth about the identities of the various groups called the “Moors,” on the blog post.”
(comments taken from the “Your blog is anti-white” thread)”
Linda says,
Asplund, I am a little late in responding to your comment but better late than never.
First off, you didn’t prove Anything concerning the Moors identities or the role the black/brown North Africans or Arabs played in the occupation of Spain.
I can only speak for myself but I stopped engaging with you – not because I thought you were a “Racist” – but because I thought your views were/are very Eurocentric and for a “mixed-race” Native American, you seem to lean heavily and promote the white-washed versions of history and events …when it comes to history, I would rather read/learn about the “truth” (good, bad, or ugly) based on actual events from a wide body of interpretations and POV from the actual participants because we’ve all been fed the narrow white European western “version” of history for most of our lives…so
I’m not interested in having the white western viewpoints “regurgitated” back to me — and you seemed all too keen to push “textbook” rhetoric during the discussion concerning the Moors – the same way, you seem to lean towards “stereotypes” on this and a few other discussions.
And to be frank, I can’t seem to find your thoughts on “race” as genuine, even though you are a supporter of “interracial” relationships — your viewpoints on non-white people just seem to come out as “odd” for a white/mixed-race man who enjoys the company of non-white women.
Especially since you have put out conflicting information about your own identity:
Asplund @ on Sun 29 Sep 2013 at 08:55:10.
“ Pretty funny that on a predominately african American forum my “y’all” would be noted. For those interested, and since who I am matters a great deal, I’m from West Virginia. Mother is Choctaw. My father is from Finland. I only date non- American women, of any race, thus my showing this site to others.”
Asplund @ Fri 1 Nov 2013 at 09:11:58
“ He (Your Choctaw “Indian” father) hated and envied whites, yet married a woman from Finland, who had blonde hair, blue eyes, and skin the color of white out, and yet somehow blamed me for being white, openly preferring my darker sister, though this didn’t mean much as his abuse scarred her as well. ”
Asplund @ Sun 3 Nov 2013 at 01:34:30
“ My dad experienced the sane bs from Finnish men when he met my mother. They called him ” Redskin” and tried to run interference. Didn’t work then doesn’t work now. ”
Some commenters on this blog have “amnesia” because they aren’t interested in anyone else’s points of view but their own or they are just skimming comments.
I don’t really make a point to file away miscellaneous information myself but I tend to remember the things I read (and since I am Far from perfect, I like to go back and re-check, in case I misunderstood and need to say I was incorrect)
I’m not pointing this out to be malicious, I’m just pointing this out to say: just because people don’t engage you on every issue, doesn’t mean you should take their “silence” as a personal victory or push your stereotypes as “truth” since you clearly demonstrate that even your own personal “truth” is open for interpretation.
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@ Linda I noticed it too. Makes me question the sincerity of a lot of that particular poster’s claims.
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@ Jefe, you asked:
They appear to call themselves Welsh, Scots, English and Irish. They might say “white English” or “white Welsh”, for emphasis, when pushed.
This might be distinguish themselves from immigrants, whether for clarity, or if they have a particular political point to make.
As for the Irish. I have heard some won’t Irish won’t tick “white” when in the UK, but will mark themselves as “Irish” first, and would NOT (I stress this) consider themselves Britons because they do not originate from Britannia — but Hibernia, or Ireland — instead.
I know what you wish to pinpoint, Jefe, but what you and other Americans might think of as the indigenous English are, to use a phrase of a Malaysian friend: the “children of children” who were mostly Germans, Danes, Norwegians and some Flemish and French. Genetic studies* suggest the probably the most significant and longest-lasting element of the “indigenous” inhabitants of England were from what is Spain and Portugal today and this seems to say that the origins of white English may have more in common with the present day Basques, than say the Scots in nearby Scotland!
This means that the so-called white English of today are “foreigners”. Lol.
(*Stephen Oppenheimer’s “The Origins of the British – A Genetic Detective Story”.)
This was something of the point I was trying to make earlier that ethnicity is not an immutable, eternal thing but evolving and continuously changing through demographics and societal definitions.
Same way what and who can be English is changing.
Someone can be English through descent, birth or naturalisation.
I know many individuals find the last 2 criteria ridiculous, or unacceptable, especially if they see “race” through the American lens (how stupid that black people can call themselves English), but different countries have different views on nationality, meaning that ethnically, a black person isn’t English, but neither is a Scottish person for example, but the Scot is Scot and the black person may be “English” if it suits them or conferred by nationality.
Btw, I have seen it argued that black people from the West Indies are not ethnically Caribbean.
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@Bulanik,
I am not trying to pinpoint anything. Just trying to ask you your perception. I suspect, as is true anywhere in the world, there is a perception about who the native people are and who are not, what forms the “mainstream society”. Sometimes 2 or more can coexist. Some descendant of non-natives people might assimilate into one or another. One ethnic / cultural group can move in and swamp out another. Anything is possible. I don’t think everyone is expecting to see things only through an American lens. After all, I have spent the bulk of adult life outside the USA.
@Linda,
Great catch
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@ Linda said in her comment to Asplund:
Agreed, Linda: I have also no ill-intent towards Asplund, either.
My convos conversations with Asplund ended after Sam and I raised questions about his approach to history
True, some commenters do have “amnesia”, or aren’t interested.
On the other end, there are those take a creeping over-interest in others –their comments, their lives, and we’ve seen where that malice takes them.
This question that I share with you falls into neither camp.
I am slightly baffled by Asplund, as my convo with him about the Spanish, revealed an Eurocentrism in the excess.
Unreconstructed and outdated, as if he had not examined important 20th century works on the enquiry into history…Asplund believes that Europe’s achievements was an all-white affair.
In addition, he was insulting about black people in the making of his point.
Why was that necessary, I don’t know.
Secondly:
–I am still trying to figure out whether Asplund’s mother or father was Finnish. Sometimes it’s his mother and another time it’s his father.
I don’t think something like that would be complicated.
So, yes, I have the same questions in my mind as you do.
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@ Jefe
Fair enough. It was only an turn a phrase, jefe.
Perhaps, out of respect for your excellent question, I was just trying to give you a fair and full answer to the best of my ability and trying to really quite specific.
And, I know quite well you have lived much of your life outside the US, but in my endeavour to explain (which was what you wanted, no?), I hinted at the effects of the American gaze on UK definitions/perceptions, rather than yours, specifically and personally.
************************
Regarding your other point in response to this:
Bulanik said:
But people of African descent were by and large only “slaves”.
British Asians only started to appear as refugees from East Africa.
The Asians of my own family were also slaves, Indian and Chinese “coolies”. So, that was all.
Jefe asked:
Yes, I do believe that when people have a history that just depicts them “only” as slaves, and nothing more, it characterizes and “brands” them as offspring of owned property, unpaid servants, unseen, silent lowly bit-players in someone else’s Grand Narrative.
And when the descendants of these indentured workers or slaves (and their slavers) become visible and present in numbers in the Mother Country, they were not as good as “the white working class”, afaik, occupying the lowest economic rungs in the UK’s social rankings.
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@ jefe, ^^ this is why I made the point about the importance of history education earlier.
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@ jefe, incidently, the English museums have gradually paid some lip service (and more!) to demonstrating the presence and history of blacks and Asians in the history of UK.
Among others, the Imperial War Museum (note the name!) have put a few exhibits and have a permanent show, the names of which escape me,
The Royal Airforce have have a permanent exhibition which commemorates the black and Asians who fought in the wars, for example:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/15/raf-race-diversity-pilot-exhibition
The British Library have also compiled an extensive Bibliography of
Black & Asian British History:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zheUXBKeqrJzYLlXojaUcAyNMgSoxrQ-oQHa_debIeQ/edit
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Again with the personal attacks. Totally expected.
First if al, I just wrote the sentence wrong the first time. Everyone garbles a sentence from time to time.
Secondly, I absolutely proved my point regarding the ” Moors.” Do you think I earned a phd for nothing? I detailed the origins of every specific group, proving when each group appeared and where they came from. I provided primary historical sources and you dismissed them. And Bulanik, yes European historic was an overwhelmingly white affair, as Chinese history was an overwhelmingly Chinese affair. Individuals with non- European origins playing roles here and there don’t provide evidence for the links you were claiming. You asserted that Iberuan Muslims sparked the Italian Renaissance- a factually untrue statement.
Show me one historian who asserts that idea, or retract the idea that I have ignored 20th century history. I’m sorry, but you don’t get to invent off the wall claims and then state then as fact with no evidence, attacking your naysayers as ” Eurocentric” when they ask for proof. That ‘s an empty criticism.
Two facts: the vast majority of ” Moors” were a mix of Arab/Berber descent. The greatest Iberian caliph, Abd at Rahman III, had blue eyes. That is an historical fact. The second fact is that Iberian Muslims did not spark the Renaissance, and no Frederick II did not provide the Renaissance with its ideological foundation. The Renaissance was a North Iraluan/ Burgundian movement, not a Southern, Sicilian one.
Here is what you guys do with history. You find where a black person/ group played any kind of role whatsoever and then you attribute any subsequent historical change to their efforts. I’m sorry but it doesn’t work like that.
You also need to bring up specific groups and provide facts. Bulanik you claimed that Chaucer was influenced by Iberian Muslims. You provided no evidence other than that he visited Spain. Linda the fact that the Almoravids had obtained blsck soldiers after their conquest of Ghana doesn’t mean that Ghana dominated Iberia.
Your claims have to have evidence. When I brought up the Enlightenment Linda sunshine though the Almoravids were relevant to the development of the Enlightenment because of the intellectual achievements of Islamic Spain, which is meaningless because of the sheer amount of time between the historical epochs. Not to mention that Averroes and the other great scholars were not even Almoravids, who themselves were North African Berbers.
Linda the Almoravuds were a specific movement of religious fundamentalists from North Africa. They were a different group from Andalusi Arabs. When I brought all that up, you said sojrthing to the effect of my trying to “whiten up” history. All I did was bring up fsctual data regarding groups.
Like it or not there is cultural value in indigenous Rurope, just as there is cultural value in indigenous America.
If there’s any analogy with someone trying to ” steal” Romeo r’s historical identity, we should be talking about the idiots who think the Olmeca and Toltecs were black. Linda you also claimed that African herbal medicines had malaria under control. The reality is the opposite. Out of control malaria causing the continent to lose nearly half it’s annual gdp. Every year. Fact. Not part of any ” Eurocentric conspiracy.” A simple fact. And how you came to the cibclusiob I was a ” Race realist” is beyond me. I haven’t made an argument based on scientific racism, or any racism for that matter, in my entire life. I think you are just throwing out terms you don’t really understand.
Wordnerdygirl- I don’t know whst it means to ” trust” my responses. I’m bit sure I know what I’m talking about.
I’m getting sick of trying to prove my identity all the time. Arguing with women us impossible- they don’t know that facts are important, that you have to have evidence for claims, and are constantly throwing out as hominems and then accusing you of ” whining” when you’re really just proving mother mental infantilism. Here are the facts:
Dad’s Choctaw. Mom’s from Helsinki Finland. I was born in West Virginia. I grew up in OK. I identify as primarily ” white” with some “American Indian” aspects. I’m a former collegiate linebacker. I’m also a former soldier in the U. S. Army. Today I make my living as a professor of Asian history, though I teach multiple subjects. I’ve lived in Japan and visited many different countries. In anti- feminist, an atheist, a strict anti- racist.
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Bulanik-
I wasn’t insulting at all regarding black people. I made an analogy using the Harlem Renaissance as an example and for some reason you flipped. I don’t think you really understood my point
. I don’t really care about your identity and frankly you shouldn’t care about mine. It’s the arguments in question that matter, not what color my mom is (she’s white as snow if you absolutely need to know).
I’m waiting for facts to prove me wrong. Calling me a racist or saying I’m Eurocentric- those are red herrings and products of fallacious reasoning.
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Linda my comment addressing you is in moderation at the moment.
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@ Asplund
Are you sober as you write this?
I ask because we had no discussion of the kind you describe.
There was no “flipping” — as you term it — by anyone, either.
Not by Sam, or you, or me. You got upset and I had to reassure you, as I recall. But, I was quite clear with you about your remarks about black people at the time you made them. In fact, it was YOU who brought in those points to prove your own dodgy reasoning. I was more of a bystander! 😀
And nor is it that I “care” about your family, identity or “colour”. I do not, really.
What’s more, I very much hope you are not interested in MINE! It’s boring to me, actually. But that is neither here, nor there.
I don’t take that kind of interest. Not in you, not in anyone.
You VOLUNTEERED that personal info — more than once — and it doesn’t make sense, so that is down YOU, not me. Sorry.
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Asplund, Im in agreement about your statement about South Korrea , and America is not an occupying force…its incredible , with North Korrea threatening and provoking and how absurd the Marxist regime is there, that some people would run the “occupying force” bs…
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I think there are a LOT of commenters on here who lie about their origins, or at least about their geographic location.
As an Aussie I immediately notice, for example, when people who claim to be Australian, Kiwi (as in New Zealander) or British regularly adopt American spellings (e.g. ‘z’ instead of ‘s’ etc).
I think some people craft little stories about themselves that fit with their broader narratives, particularly when those narratives don’t align with the views of the author of this blog.
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Am I sober? Hell naw.
Bulanik- you don’t remember getting offended? Thinking I brought up the analogy with the Harlem Renn. because you thought it had something to do with your identity? I don’t remember the rest of what you are talking about. Who is Sam? Is that your alter ego?
If you didn’t care about my identity why are you asking boo? I volunteered some info it’s true. I don’t know how that’s relevant to my posts being ” genuine,” whatever that means.
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Abagond- will you delete my post in moderation? It’s too harsh on Linda.
Also it can be summed up in one phrase. ” primary sources are necessary to make historical claims.”
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😀
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Word nerdy hinting that I’d have some reason to lie, just because I mus-typed something while stoned. Why this level of scrutiny in me? Maybe because my arguments are unassailable
For the record, there are a ton of white/ black Americans with indigenous ancestry.
B.r. – thanks. It’s ridiculous how absurd extreme leftist arguments can get. As if Koreans were minding their own business peacefully until evil Uncle Dam showed up as an “occupying force.”
A lot of white women from Anglo countries are very threatened by non- white women, especially nowadays, with white men waking up to the beauty of black women.
I’m a successful white male in his 30’s and these Anglo white women can’t stand that I date primarily Nina white, preferably non- American/ Australian/ Canadian women.
There’s a theme behind all the anti irr arguments, and that’s the fact that people apparently have sexual insecurities our the wazoo. Blows my mind because I haven’t felt sexually vulnerable since I was a teenager.
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I’m 6’9″, 304 lbs.
Maybe the Korean men thought you were Yeti and wanted to protect their women-folk from you!
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As an aside, one great thing about black American women is how conservative they tend to be with their sexuality. I love their self- respect and that kind of self- control/self- respect is very sexy. I don’t know how the stereotype that black women are more ” loose” than white women got started.
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Herneth- lol.
Sorry for all the typos on my last post.
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@ Asplund dude, you have repeated racist tropes about Asian men on this thread ad nauseum. These kinds of tropes usually emerge from the mouths of white, American men. You fit the profile.
I’m sure there are some people who post here who are anti IRR. As a member of an ‘IRR’ myself I am certainly not one of them. The reason why your bashing of Asian men offends me is because (a) it’s racist and (b) my husband is Asian so of course I have a heightened sensitivity to the kind of rubbish you’re spouting.
You should date whomever you like. But you cannot claim on the one hand to like women of a certain ethnicity and then on the other make racist statements about the men of that ethnicity. The whole tone of your critique of Korean men implies that they are effeminate, weak and envious of your success with ‘their women’. In Australian internet parlance, ICB!
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When have I made a racist statement against Korean men? Where? I said they tend to run interference- which is true. Some foreign cultures have that trait. Poles do it also. Americans from the Pacific Northwest and Canadians from Toronto do it too. I don’t know where you are getting this stuff.
I don’t care about your husband. As an individual he’s probably pretty effeminate and weak if he allows you to display that kind of attitude. That’s not due to his race, though.
If anyone said anything racist it was you. First of all you said that Amrrican men have ” privege” in Korea. Ha. The only men with privelege in Korea are Korean men. That’s why the country is 99 percent Korean and refuses to allow immigration. Do you not remember how difficult it was just to get a basic drivers license as a foreigner?
Secondly, you are the one who stated that all men don’t have the right to pursue all women, which is an absurd idea. Every man has the right to pursue every race of woman. This is not 1930s Alabama.
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What has my husband ‘allowed’ me to do which is so offensive? Am I not ‘allowed’ to have an opinion?
I found it astounding that you continue to deny your privilege as a white American male. We both know that your success with Korean women was not merely thanks to your claimed good looks and success. As you would be well aware, a black American man, however handsome, would NOT command the same level of positive attention from Korean women.
While Korean men and women are, of course, very secure in their national and ethnic identity Hollywood stereotypes are still rife there. Otherwise how do you explain the racism against black men and women in Korea, even though very few Koreans have actually come into close contact with a black person?
Not once did I state that men do not have the right to pursue women. What I said was that Korean men have every right to compete with you for women. What’s the problem?
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Stick to the issue? Where’d I say something racist against Korean men?
The idea that O have ” white American male privelege” in Korea is ridiculous. Koreans are eacist against blacks because they’re racist against all non- Koreans. They see whites as closer to Korean and thus have less eacisn tiwards whites. It isn’t due to Hollywood. 90 percent of media consumed by Koreans is Korean.
Keep acting like Koreans aren’t xenophobic as hell. It’s even worse against Japanese trying to make money in Korea. Is that because of Hollywood?
Typical white woman who lived in Asia. Bitter because Asian women have you beat hands down. If a white Australian was that hostile towards a Korean man for flirting with a white Australuan woman, I bet you’d be pretty damn outraged.
Also, I never said Koreab men can’t compete for Korean women. That’s the norm in Korea. Running interference isn’t competition though, it’s racist and insidious. I had a buddy who was in Korea and because he was black Korean men hated on him like no tomorrow. He still cleaned up though.
Your only option is to try to shame white males out of trying for foreign women. That doesn’t work anymore. The only western women I will date are black American women. Maybe black British or Jamaican women, but I don’t know any personally.
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@ Asplund,
You allege that racism is rife in Korea. Like a lot of American men (I didn’t notice the same reaction from Canadian or Australian men) I think you were just shocked that you weren’t automatically bumped to the top of the line for everything.
Instead of being at the head of the sexual ladder you had to compete against Korean men on equal terms – something that I think a lot of American men have trouble with.
The same goes for a lot of white women in Korea. As you’ve mentioned, they are not at the top of the sexual ladder there – which is why I think it’s such a good (if sobering) experience for any white person to live in Asia for any length of time.
In saying that, I personally had no problems dating in Korea, Australia or anywhere for that matter. In fact, I exclusively dated white men in Korea – not something I necessarily set out to do but it just worked out that way. I don’t fulfill any of your laundry list of complaints – I’m not overweight, I’m normal looking and without sounding over confident (i.e. like you!) I’ve never had trouble attracting men.
Your driver’s licence complaint is also a non-issue. All you needed to do is get your international driver’s permit in the US – Korea accepts them. In any event, if a few bureaucratic hassles were the worst thing you faced then you really have nothing to complain of!
Seriously, if you had brought a more positive attitude with you to Korea you would have had a really enjoyable time there. The expat community is really tight knit, it’s easy to make friends with Korean people, the food is fantastic and the culture and history are fascinating. What’s not to love??
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LOL
(goes and pours himself another cup of coffee) 😛
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@jefe: You are funny.
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@Bulanik
May I ask, is this the type of image and depiction that Black and Asian Britons want to make for themselves (or ones that white Britons selected for them)? The RAF’s mission was in some respects there to reinforce white imperial Britain’s imperatives sometimes at the expense of colonized black and Asian people.
The reason I ask this is because it smacks just a bit like the cameo tokenism that Abagond alluded to when white American history attempts to make itself look less white, eg
– Crispus Attacks (He was a mixed Native American / African slave who was the first shot dead in the American Revolution.) How can we honor him as a historical hero when the Revolution was about freeing white Americans from England so that they can continue their own exploitation of blacks and native Americans without British interference. I think his death was more an unfortunate accident. But Whites need to have him as a hero to feel less guilty
– list of Asian-Americans who fought in the Civil War (when at the same time they were treated as coolie slaves on the Union Pacific railroad and western mines — and after the Civil War were lynched and massacred then excluded from the country for almost a hundred years) – again another achievement only serving white interests
Maybe it is more like the
– Tuskegee Airmen (Red tails) – fighting for a country that charged them for mutiny for entering a segregated white officers club, a country that would not give them a chance to vote for another 20 years
– The 442nd Regimental Combat Team, the most decorated unit in US military history, entirely composed of Japanese-Americans in WWII, fighting for a country that confiscated all their family’s property and interned their families at home behind barbed wire in concentration camps in the middle of the desert
I suspect it is white people who need these heroes more than blacks and Asians. They need to feel better about themselves to cover up a sordid past that they would rather not talk about.
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@ Jefe.
I don’t know if it is.
I sense an element of that though, to be sure, and the examples you gave certainly tell us a great deal about the motivations behind this kind of “recognition” of Asians and blacks in times of war.
That said, there was much discussion at one time in England about who was Britain for, and who had for it, who head earned the right, etc.
I’d hear this kind of thing:
“Ooh look at all them immigrants, we didn’t fight in the wars for all of them to come over here now, did we? No one asked us!”
There was no recognition of people from the Commonwealth. They were invisible and silent in all this “British Glory”; the blacks and Asians were only scroungers and whingers who had pushed their way in, unwelcome, and uninvited (not true) into England. That was the talk at one time.
As for image-making, again, I don’t know.
I strongly suspect that the curators of these museums wish to cater to the European, American (and East Asian) tourists who make up their largest percentages of visitors, so there is an element of playing to the gallery and making themselves look good, broad-minded and inclusive.
I studied in one of the universities not from the Imperial War Museum, and in those days, I was intimidated by the “over-British” almost “colonial” atmosphere of its halls. Times have probably changed, but I simply don’t know how sincere its curatorship is when it comes to PoC, or whether the institution is as self-serving as ever.
A collection of photos from the Imperial War Museum’s archives:
http://www.casbah.ac.uk/cats/archive/233/IWMA00001.htm
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* who had fought for it
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I’ve only dated out once and it was with a non-Black man of color (Asian American–Vietnamese)…
It has been my experience that the “interferences” that you speak of are usually imagined by those who feel insecure at the prospect that their racially “other” partner will abandon them for someone of their own group…
I’m not implying that you feel this way–just that it is a narrative that seems to have no validity to it. Black guys at my school saw my Vietnamese boyfriend and i together all the time and none of them “interfered” or felt some negative way about it–in fact my boyfriend only hung out with the Black guys. By my junior year, we broke up, but remained good friends and other Black students (both male and female) kept trying to bring us back together (sweet on their parts)…
History has shown that the only group of people who have implemented laws and regulations to interfere with people’s sexuality has been white people…
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*Hehehe*
As though Korean men aren’t great catches in their own right.
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And I can attest to korean food being delicious.
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“Asplund,
Word nerdy hinting that I’d have some reason to lie, just because I mus-typed something while stoned. Why this level of scrutiny in me? Maybe because my arguments are unassailable”
Linda says,
No, your arguments are Eurocentric and open to scrutiny based on your own words or “mistakes”
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@ phoebeprunelle that’s my point. Hollywood stereotypes have an impact but this is balanced by Korean film and television which portray Korean men as desirable, masculine role models. Instead of being viewed as somehow better than Korean, or Asian men, White men are on an equal footing – they’re both at the “top”.
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Word-
You dated all those exist losers? Unless they were soldiers, businessman, or academics you really must be hurting in the looks dept.
I don’t know where you got the idea that I didn’t have a good time in Korea. Hung out with a lot of birds. Made a good bit of cash. Also it was a very short stay.
I love the ” if that’s all you have to deal with ” argument. Sorry bib, there’s Ubuntu ersal human rights. The Koreans don’t have the right to have racist shops, deny foreigners services, etc. You can support this if you want. That’s on you.
I don’t know where you’d think I ” compete” with Korean men. -$&@”blocking isn’t competition. It’s nit as though I don’t get the chick but he does. He is mad she won’t even acknowledge him so he has to ruin it for everyone. Once I realized this was going on I put a stop to it, classic style.
Lol at the idea that white men have any ” privelege” in Korea. Could younumagund being a white man and apyibf for a business loan? Or entering a white or black child in Korean public schools. Sorry no one, not even Amerucan Indians, get a pass with me.
Now allllllllll that nonsense out of the way, where have I been racist against Korean men? Where? Show me or retract your accusation hon.
Linda- you can try to excuse yourself, but you know you wouldn’t be dependabt on personal attacks and charges of “Eurocentrism” if You had some actual counter- arguments to bring to the table.
Lol y’all can’t handle me. I’m anti- racist so I can’t be dismissed as a racist. But I’m not one of these sniveling, illogical, hypocritical SWPL folks whipping themselves over their ” white privelege.” Too strobg a ma. For such slave morality. It’s got people thinking in more than binary opposites and it’s too much. Must be due to my Choctaw upbringing.
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” expat
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I love the u Serling hostility towards Hollywood, as if Hollywoof was evil for showing American movies in Korea.
I’m guessing 98 percent of the distributors, Theater operators, and movie goers are Korean. So ridiculous that” Hollywood” is somehow at fail foevwupplying people with a product they willingly request, seek- out, distribute, and consume.
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That was my phone farting. An epic fail.
I meant to say that Hollywood can’t be at fault because Koreans are responsible for bringing Hollywood to Korea.
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@Bulanik
Yeah, throughout school I found I received little exposure to cultures outside of Europe, sadly. I had very little Black history, and, when it’s touched on, it revolves around me being a slave. My mom is a teacher, and she says, the only Black history children are taught is by watching “Roots.”
@wordynerdygirl
Heeey! I change all my s’s to zs because I assumed the Americans (who I assumed made up the majority of the posters on this site) would think I can’t spell. Lol
@phoebeprunelle
“I’ve only dated out once and it was with a non-Black man of color (Asian American–Vietnamese)…
It has been my experience that the “interferences” that you speak of are usually imagined by those who feel insecure at the prospect that their racially “other” partner will abandon them for someone of their own group…
I’m not implying that you feel this way–just that it is a narrative that seems to have no validity to it. Black guys at my school saw my Vietnamese boyfriend and i together all the time and none of them “interfered” or felt some negative way about it–in fact my boyfriend only hung out with the Black guys. By my junior year, we broke up, but remained good friends and other Black students (both male and female) kept trying to bring us back together (sweet on their parts)…
History has shown that the only group of people who have implemented laws and regulations to interfere with people’s sexuality has been white people…”
…………………………………………………
You’re lucky phoebe. I know a BW who’s engaged to a WM, and she told me she gets grief from WW all the time. Bad looks, bad attitude, the whole nine.
Once, not too long ago, when I was out on a date with a WM, he had a colleague stop by to drop something off while we were on the date. The colleague brought along two other work associates, as WW and a WM. As soon as the WW saw us she became visibly upset. I thought I was being paranoid or something, but when they joined us for a few minutes, she was began speaking in a very passive aggressive nature. She said, out of the blue, “I can see why White guys like you, you’re the kind of Black girl White guys like. You’re not the ghetto kind.” And then… she began randomly dropping the n word at various points when it was unrelated to anything. Not that it would be related to anything, but it was that much more bizarre. Then the WM associate who had also tagged along with the colleague laughed, and said, “be careful they’ll lock you up for that now.” My date and his colleague were in shock. He ended up taking me out of the restaurant just to get away from them, because they wouldn’t leave.
Also, when I was in a relationship with an Asian guy a few years ago, I came across a few Asian women who didn’t like it.
But I have experienced mostly, and many other instances of backlash from WW when dating WM.
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@ Kiwi I actually thought that Abagond used British spelling because of his origins in the West Indies – from my understanding they use ‘s’ in place of ‘z’ there too.
My comment was really about a couple of other trollish posters who’ve popped up in other threads 🙂
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^^^*a WW and a WM
*she began speaking with a very passive aggressive nature
*
@wordynerdygirl
Aww, don’t worry, I knew what you meant. I was just teasing.
@Legion
Lol. Yes you’d think it was on fire. I describe it more as a scene of, the room freezing over, my mind leaving, with my body tagging along, shortly after.
Have been reading the blog for a good minute now, without commenting. Always loved your posts.
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@ Ebonymonroe, you went to school in the US.
I had to ask, I was under the impression you were from England.
My mistake.
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Ebony,
I’m not saying this behavior is non-existent; but i think its used many times to cover up insecurities, particularly with white people…
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My political education is just expanded living in Brazil…the standard cliche you hear now “communism is dead..you are paranoid” I laugh at living down here since the communist party in Brazil,the PCB,is extremly alive and well and the ideology plays out very powerfully in contemporarypolitics right now…
So, they are running a docu today, about a communist revolutionary in Brazil in the 60’s, who opted for armed revolution, his party wsnt committed to that, and, he went to China to study and Cuba, both those trips influencing and training him for the armed revolution…I mean you cant make this up,
Some of his sympathisers , in today, have made this documentary to honor this communist armed revolutionary, who did assasinate people and rob banks and set bombs…this isnt a docu made a long time ago, its right now sending an ideological message by honoring this marxist revolutionary in Brazil
So, in the scenesin the docu, they show a part of other people struggling for the same cause as this guy , around the world
and , lo and behold, is a breif but vivid scene of a group of Black Panthers, all lined up and each reading The Little Red book…
Its very revealing to run into comments on here mocking me for uncovering the origins of anti interracial sex agenda from the black militant nationalists, and how it ties in with a string of flawed mandates, which , why am I not surprised, have some hook up with marxism and its chumpy mandates and flawed thinking
I definitly know the white racists are on the other side of the line of accepting interracial relationships , along with their behind the woodshed hypocracy..
and, its in my interests, as somebody in a long term interracial relationship, to know where antiinterracial bigotry could flow and the exact origins and political agendas and rhetoric from where they originated from
people can dissmiss this , mock it, think its something from the past…well, the truth is, its right now, these poisons that affect these discusions come seeping through in the form of rehashed poltical agenda rhetoric, that most of the users have no idea where it came from, or its real tie ins with other flawed agendas
i see this reality on a regular basis , and Im not incriminating Brazil or Brazilians, Im talking about certain minds and how they think and how this all ties together when you look at a bigger picture…this isnt even anti commie, its anti shrink minds who actualy buy into this crap, either main line or deluted form
Im glad i see through it, because it is my best defence of how to be prepared…after all, as the actual oerson in aninterracial long term relationship, it is my reality…certainly not the reality of the people pushing the anti racial sex agendas…that really is our differance, Im actualy in a long term interracial relationship…its not in their interest to know they are just pushing flawed bs
so, straight up, some of the tired antiinterracial sex attitudes you see on here , in 2013, are diluted rehashes of an extreme black militant position , that was also tied into admiring Mao and the Little Red Book , marxism , actualy,, and buried black culture and banned black activists activists , men and women in relationships with white people
you know, I wouldnt even have made this post, except i had to see this crap on tv right today…its all going on right today..the bs..I mean these reminders are cronic, too…I will never dissmiss this
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@Bulanik
No, I did go to school in the UK, I am in the UK right now. I was saying in comparison to what African Americans seem to be taught about their history in the US in comparison to Black Brits. But, that I may be idealizing the education system in the US, from afar.
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@ Asplund this is the last time I comment on any of your posts. But I couldn’t resist jotting down a few thoughts:
1. The ‘story’ of your heritage is a lie. This is a fair conclusion to make as you’ve told several conflicting versions. I think you lied about your heritage because you thought it gave you a get out of jail free card for posting racist things.
2. You do not have a PhD in anything other than trolling. You have plagiarised several of your comments – something no bona fide historian would do.
3. By the (poor) quality of your writing I would guess that you were working as an ESL teacher in Korea. If so, do you realise that you are paid MORE to teach English than a genuinely qualified Korean mathematics or science teacher is? Even worse, a white American teacher will generally be paid more than a Chinese American teacher in Korea. This is the case even though they both have the same level of (native) proficiency in the English language. Knowing this, how the hell can you argue that you are not privileged?
4. It is true that some Koreans are xenophobic. This is not surprising given South Korea’s history. As a ‘historian’ you should be aware of the legacy of Japanese colonisation and the Korean War on the national psyche.
5. I would like to qualify this by saying that while Koreans are somewhat xenophobic they are nowhere near as racist, in my experience, as Americans, Australians, French or German people. And I am speaking from experience as a white person who hears the comments white people make when they talk freely. I often have to call white Australian, American and European people out on this behaviour. You know exactly what I mean by this Asplund – don’t pretend you don’t.
6. For anyone who’d like an honest picture of what Asplund is talking there’s a good post on the subject by a Korean American (http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2010/02/what-is-state-of-esl-teachers-in-korea.html) It explains why white men and women find it so confronting to live in Korea. It’s because for most it’s their first, genuine experience of being a minority. Even though they’re a privileged minority, they still complain. Go figure.
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Ha! More personal attacks instead of dealing with my argument. I love arguing with women!
Since you won’t answer my question I’ll bite with your deflections, as you apparently lack reason like most female commenters and dealing with loony chicks can be fun sometimes, no offense to the few rational birds out there.
1. Ha I mistype something and you suddenly have proof about my identity or something! Hon I have identified as white this whole time. I am an upper middle class white man with some Indian blood and cultural roots. My father is Indian but I am not. Do you know ehat a ” blood quantum” is even?Ha I get called racist all the time. I don’t care, because it’s always by birds and simply manginas. The idea that I’d give a flip if someone called me racist.
2. I have phd, doll. Just face it. Why would I lie? It’s pretty damn evident given my vast knowledge base- even comments on this site have stated people were impressed. As for plagiarizing, I don’t get that at all. Do you need parenthetical citations for comments now? Would you like me to use Chicago style? Where exactly did I plagiarize hon? Seeing what you come up with is going to be great.
3. Now you’re criticizing my prose style. I’ve always felt that simple, sincere clarity works best on these kinds of media. Is there a particular passage you have a problem understanding? If so point it out and I’ll gladly clarify. It’s common for Internet folk to demean text they can’t follow with shallow criticism. It’s try My comments are prone to spelling errors, but that’s because I am typing them on a format that’s very, very difficult. Most of the time I’m trying to do this plastered which makes it even harder.
4. Haha ESL! Awesome. Soon I’ll be a pasty, pimply, short loser who lives in his mama’s basement!
No sweetie I first went to Korea as a soldier, than as a guest lecturer. No ESL for me. That is for people with only a B.A. and no prospects.
5. I know there’s a history of Japanese colonialism. There’s Han meddling in Korea as far back as the Tang. Every prejudice has a history. Doesn’t excuse it though. Just because Korea was bludgeoned, doesn’t give them the right to be pricks. You gotta be global now right? What’s good for one is good for all where diversity is concerned.
6. I’m still laughing at the whole privelege idea. Your Korean- American blogger can try to explain it away but it just doesn’t stick. Can I become an American- Korean? Can I buy property? Can I immigrate there and expect to have the right to participate in economic life with the same advantages and restrictions as a native born Korean? Will my racially mixed children be treated with the same care? Why is Korea afraid of diversity? I’m sorry if diversity is good for the U.K., Canada, etc. I just think Korea shouldn’t have to miss out !
The idea that you can out there, settle, and prosper long- term is just silly. The idea that they are somehow less racist than Americans is totally off the rocker. How many American- Koreans are there? I sure know a lot of Korean Americans. On the past this could be explained away by poverty. After all, who would have immigrated there in 1980? ROK is the eleventh richest nation on Earth today. They should be awash in foreigners trying to immigrate. What’s stopping the diversity?
7. Finally finally finally, now that we’ve talked about yours truly enough to satisfy your desire ( for now, perhaps), maybe you can go back to the original issue and quit changing the goal post?
What did I say that was racist against Korean men? Hey do you still believe that nonsense you stated earlier about how ” not every man has the right to pursue every woman?” Please that is a dead give away for trying to redirect attractive white males back to you.
You’re on this tip because you can’t stand being out- competed by Asian and Aftican women for white men. If so, you wouldn’t have felt the need to point out how you dated so many white men in Korea. You were still attractive in Korea right? I mean, you’re just as beautiful as a thin, feminine, non -Anglo woman right ?
I don’t believe any man should ever limit or be ashamed of his sexuality for any reason. Every man on Earth has the right to pursue women. If the woman on question consents to it, he has the right to no strings attached sex if he is honest and so chooses.
Isn’t it weird how much people talk about me?
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Ha I just remembered that this chick said that ” no bona fide historian” would plagiarize. That gave me a chuckle.
Oh and now that I think about it, there was one point she made I did not address. She stated that I was ” privege led” because Korean folks want Wgite Engkish teachers. I love how then being racist is due to Ameticans being racist somehow. Ironically, it’s because they view everything in terms of ethnicity in the first place that they have these nutty notions.
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@ Asplund you have misquoted me. I did NOT say every man cannot pursue every woman he is interested in. What I said is complete access to every woman you desire is not a human right. As I said in a later post, you should expect to compete with other men for the attention of attractive women.
In no way are your dating choices any of my business. In fact, I find it a bit weird that you are accusing me of trying to redirect attention toward ‘attractive white males’. We are posting here anonymously. Either of us could be the elephant man or woman. More importantly, I’m married and this is not a dating site – why would I care about what you look like?
What I do feel concerned about is the way that you unjustly disparage other men. Hell, you even called my husband effeminate! This comment was particularly offensive in the way it attacked the masculinity of Asian men in general:
On 13/10/2013 you said:
The Asian male resentment theme has gotten old for me.
… it isn’t due to “Hollywood Brainwashing” that these women like the men they like. Athletic men who meet womens’ height standard are what they desire. You can’t struggle with women because you’re 5’6″ then turn around and blame it in evil whitey imperialism.
And for the record. There is anti- white male persecution in some Asian countries- particularly Korea, which is known as the empire of c*ckblocking [my asterisk].
You’ll catch a little of it in Japan too.
——————————————————————————————
Below are a few more quotes that really reek of ignorance. They also show to anyone really paying attention that your little story about your heritage is BS.
——————————————————————————————————————-
Tue 3 Sep 2013 at 07:15:44
“It’s a little hard to argue that you’re violating someone’s liberty when you don’t believe in principles of liberty to begin with, and believe that God’s design is the source of any individual’s woes.
Like it or not, the first country to significantly turn against slavery was Great Britain, and the last societies to abolish slavery were in Africa.”
Monday 21 October
Mon 21 Oct 2013 at 05:33:52
Asplund
…
There were blacks who participated in direct slaughter of American Indians. There were American Indians who participated in slavery. Nothing is so cut and dry. That’s not a deflection- it’s just a mitigating factor in trying to guilt trip modern whites.
On 22/10/2013 you said:
… The fact that the ancient mid-west was full of militant Indian groups is relevant. It’s like the conquest of Mexico. Yes the Spanish conquistadors brutally crushed the Aztec empire. But when they did so, they crushed an enemy just as brutal.
On 23/10/2013 you said:
…The knee-jerk reaction is to call someone a racist for disagreeing with all sorts of opinions, regardless of whether or not that person is racist. In the worldview of most of these comment writers, the default white person is a severe racist.
Think about my arguments: arguing that western liberalism produced the first and only abolition movement on a global scale, Look at the lengths people went to to attack that notion…
On 24/10/2013 you said
… Plenty of Indian populations attacked white populations first, without provocation, wiping out men, women, and children. I feel bad for my ancestors but the presentation of them as saintly victims is just not true. They fought with the European settlers, they were defeated. They mixed with the new population. They were never just minding their own business when evil whitey jumped them from behind.
On 14/10/2013 you said:
Asplund
Kiwi-
I’ve never heard a white person use an ethnic slur against an Asian [Once again, I call BS!].
I’m done. I was really interested in learning from what the other commenters were saying but you’ve made this thread boring.
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A black American explains the ‘whitewashing’ of Korean views on race very eloquently here: http://metropolitician.blogs.com/scribblings_of_the_metrop/2006/02/page/2/
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@wordynerdygirl
Wow, that is an interesting blog. Thank you for sharing.
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abagond was on a bigger ‘british-style’ spelling kick a while ago… he must be code switching lol.
havin a pretty good time of it now we’re on a cocaine and alcohol free diet…
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@v8 — code switching — Lol!
@Ebonymonroe, I see.
I got mixed up because I mistakenly thought you sounded American in your writing. Sorry about that; I see what you mean now. 🙂
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@ Shady_Grady, re: Black France.
That’s a marvellous book suggestion of yours about Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, The Black Count — the real Count of Monte Cristo.
(How am I going to get my paws on all of these great books?)
On the Amazon site about the book, it seems the Count led 50,000 men during the French Revolution and stood up against Napoleon in Africa. Out of revenge, Napoleon buried France’s black heritage AND did his utmost to destroyed racial equality in that country, too. That’s a big story…
Important to note as well is France’s debt not only him but also his son, Alexandre, author of “The Three Musketeers”. This book is not only one of the most widely read books in that language, Dumas is supposed to be the most widely read of any of France’s authors — more than Hugo or Zola, according to French news reports.
Parallel that with Russian literature, it’s said that greatest poet was also a man of mixed African and European descent, Alexander Pushkin.
(Shady, I trust you caught my answer to you upthread about Jewish music and its fusions.)
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I read an piece in People magazine on mayoral candidate Bill de Blassio, he and his wife Chirlane and their family are quite charming, they have a nice love at first sight story. He is a popular favorite in the mayoral race. I like a statement made about their family. I like how the writer of the story says that people are not voting for him because he has a biracial family,but they recognize him and his family because they look like New York. I think that cool. They are a beautiful family.
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The Bill de Blassio family has an interesting twist to it. Wife Chirlane, was living her life as a lesbian, now they are happily married with two children. It looks like they represent a little bit of everyone. Talk about complex and controversial. If anything they can’t be called boring.
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The Black Count is an interesting book. Alexandre Dumas the author of the “Three Musketeers will put this on my list.
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Hi Bulanik. Yes I saw your thoughtful reply upthread. =)
Bulanik and Mary Burrell, I would definitely recommend The Black Count. Very exciting, full of derring do, narrow escapes, and explanations of how entrenched racism was becoming in France at the time as a direct result of slavery and colonialism.
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B.R. you ought to consider that you are talking to many people who either grew up during the sixties/seventies era in black America and/or are related to or descended from people who did. So they know what was going on in the black community.
I think that you have latched on to one social movement out of a myriad of historical and social experiences to try to explain why some black people might not be too thrilled with interracial relationships.
The fact is that then and now some black people weren’t thrilled with interracial relationships because they weren’t thrilled with how black people, both as a group and individually, were treated by white people, both as a group and individually. It really is that simple. One of my paternal aunts remembered her experience during the 67 riots. Army/National Guard troops put guns on black citizens (including her) while white citizens jeered and hurled racial slurs. Black people were murdered in Algiers motel. My grandfather and an uncle were shot by cops. And so on. So a few years later when one of my other uncles married a white woman (from a pretty racist family), my blood relatives weren’t exactly pleased. This had nothing, repeat nothing to do with black nationalist rhetoric, music choices or dance styles. It had everything to do with how the black people of 1967-68 experienced racism.
As has been pointed out IRR today are more common than they were at the time and only growing more so. People should be with who they want. But given people’s nature, most people, self-identified racist or not, are going to settle down/marry/reproduce with someone of the same racial group. That’s ok too.
As far as kicking whites out of SNCC or CORE or what have you again, I think you are underestimating the natural desire for people to own, run and operate their own organizations and institutions. This is entirely uncontroversial except when it comes to black people. How many Black people are members or leaders of B’nai B’rith or National Italian American Foundation or National Association of Asian American Professionals or any other number of groups that are dedicated to some specific cultural outlook? Not very many.
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@ Shady Grady: Excellent points.
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Hey Word Nerdy,
My smashing your effeminate husband doesn’t have anything to do with his ethnicity- I’m assuming that about him due to the caliber of his wife. Same with shorties of all races.
None of those other comments are racist. You think they are? Why?
As for my “competing” with other men, I’m not the one worried. Why don’t you share that message with the Korean men you actually do look down on, thinking you have to be standing up for them to me.
How do my comments have anything to do with my heritage? You’d think you’d look at the intense knowledge in those and come to the conclusion that I am who I say I am. Indian people have done wrong in history. Funny that only people who don’t know indian people seem to insist on the opposite.
If those views are ignorant, prove them wrong, miss historian. I can prove the historical veracity of every single one of them. How about you take a crack at one of them if they are so “ignorant.”
You’re the ignorant one here, toots.
Blaming Westerners for the racist attitudes of Koreans is beyond stupid. It shows a complete lack of critical thinking skills/ true experience in Korea.
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Why blame Westerners on the racist attitudes of Koreans? That is strange. Who brought that up?
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Asplund,
pointing out the fact that you wrote “conflicting” information (voluntarily) about your heritage is not a “personal” attack or a deflection in order not to debate — it’s called “reality”
because in reality, you really wrote conflicting information about yourself — no one asked you to write about your heritage— you offered the narrative
so now you’re offended that we actually paid attention and read it.
I’m sorry but you seem to have a way of making a “mistake” and having a handy-dandy excuse that sounds strange coming from learned professors mouth: “I’m drunk”, “I’m stoned”, “my girlfriend did it”
you say things that are Off — such as the comment you made where you dropped that “you used to be a “communist” —
Asplund @ Wed 4 Sep 2013 at 20:05:35
“When I was in my twenties I was a member of the communist party and was obsessed with both fascism and communism in Asia.” (and they still let you in the American military; Wow, who did your background check?!)
that statement is such a strange thing to say, especially coming from an American’s mouth, on a “black” American blog — as a history professor, you should be aware of that significance
Admitting that you (people in general) are/were affiliated with a “communist” party is not the thing to do — not even Cubans or Europeans from the former Soviet/Eastern Bloc would openly admit they were members of the Party, even they are aware that sh’t is “taboo” —
so why would you, Asplund, feel so free to say such a thing on this unsecure blog? an admission that people from former Communist countries wouldn’t even dare to utter in real life in a room full of strangers.
hence, you’ve made an “odd” comment that is open to scrutiny and interpretation — interacting with someone who might not be operating in good faith, tends to leave a bad after taste.
Even though I disagree with several viewpoints from other commenters on this blog, I also recognize that these commenters are coming from genuine place of sincerity when it comes to the uplifting of black or non-white people -I don’t get that kind of vibe from you,
but I do get that you are a supportive of the typical white American ideology when it comes to race and since you stated you were mixed-race, I find your comments and views to be “off” —
Anyway, this is all just my 2 cents and at the end of the day, it holds as much weight as the tissue I use to wipe my behind.
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@ Shady Grady
Excellent comment. Co-sign.
@ Wordy Nerdy
Thanks for the compilation of Asplund’s greatest hits.
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@ Abagond LOL! @ compilation of Asplund’s hits. That’s funny.
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@wordynerdygirl
Thank God for people like you who reverse that. You obviously spent a lot of time on it.
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well Asplund….you can turn in your man card. It is cowardly to disrespect and attack a persons husband in that manner. *smh
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@ Asplund
What is your PhD in? How in the world can you say such a thing and say you are a history professor? What about Haiti?
The abolition of slavery has a long history and it certainly did not start with Britain during the Enlightenment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline
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Is Bill de Blassio, the new mayor of New York? “Wow”
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@ Asplund
Right, because the conflict between the Aztecs and the Spanish goes back to the mists of time, so there is no telling who started it. *sarcasm*
You do not break into a man’s house with a gun and then blame him because he shot first.
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According to that timeline, the UK was the last country to abolish slavery. Only after the UK finally did that did it become technically illegal around the world.
Having said that, I attend a lot of lectures round Corporate Social Responsibility as I am doing freelance work in that area. They all purport that slavery today is at the highest than it has ever been throughout history.
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“What is your PhD in? How in the world can you say such a thing and say you are a history professor? What about Haiti?
The abolition of slavery has a long history and it certainly did not start with Britain during the Enlightenment:”
For the record, my phd is in……………………..History!……………..
One thing at a time:
Haiti doesn’t work for obvious reasons- the fact that Haiti was a former slave colony that did not have the power or capital to benefit from slavery kind of disqualifies it don’t you think? They weren’t exactly powerful enough to influence any kind of world movement. And before you reply by saying “So let me get this straight… you have to have held slaves to be credited with abolishing slavery blah blah,”- no, it’s the fact that Haiti has always been poor and powerless that makes their moral statements lack significance. Furthermore guess who Toussaint L’Overture took his ideas for a Haitian Republic from in the first place? Ha I’d love to see you admit that. You demonize whites like all get out and just can’t stand it that “Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness,” were words first spoken by whites. Liberty, democracy, and liberalism, and all their ideological children, didn’t come from Africa man. Get over it. You can’t stand even one good thing being stated about America, Britain, the West, etc., and I know it has to have you steamed. Even the Haitian Revolution itself is partially due to the British, just like the American Revolution is in part due to the French.
The rest of that timeline doesn’t work. Here are some problems:
In many of those instances slavery was not abolished, but some aspect of it was, so throw those out. Secondly, I brought up for example the abolition under Wang Mang, but I noted how those abolition movements were limited in scope and not long-lasting. That works for other antique/medieval examples. Furthermore, many of those governments lacked the means to even enforce such decrees.
Finally- Many of the others lose relevance due to the presence of serfdom. My analysis includes serfdom as a lighter form of slavery. You could say that Czarist Russia “abolished slavery.” I kinda think we know why that’s a silly statement right?
The British Empire was the first to decisively end slavery. That abolition has last ed and it was global in scope. We are benefiting from it today. In fact when British power abolished it, who complained most? Plantation owners sure, but those West African Potentates sure did. I won’t bother posting the letter one king wrote to the English Crown, as I also have to deal with the name calling from other posters.
Finally, there’s a huge philosophical difference between the British abolition and other historical movements. The British asserted that human beings have inherent rights to liberty. Wang Mang didn’t look at it like that. He did not have the same concept of liberty. That’s one reason the British were able to end the transatlantic slave trade for good, without a backlash and reversion to the process.
I’m loving bringing up events from 600 B.C.E. that don’t even compute with our modern understanding of anything.
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“Asplund,
Plantation owners sure, but those West African Potentates sure did. I won’t bother posting the letter one king wrote to the English Crown, as I also have to deal with the name calling from other posters.”
Linda says,
see that’s where you are wrong, Asplund… by posting an actual document linked to a more “authentic” source… makes you appear more creditable.
By just saying things and demanding that what you say is “Truth” is what makes you look like you’re pulling information from your a’s.
Post the letter… that is why on the Moor discussion I asked you to cite your resources because you repeating the rote, westernized version of history doesn’t “make your claim” true or false… it just shows you are a great “parrot”
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Alright Linda, you’re next sweetie:
“Pointing out the fact that you wrote “conflicting” information (voluntarily) about your heritage is not a “personal” attack or a deflection in order not to debate — it’s called “reality””
Do you even understand what I mean when I say “personal attack.” That doesn’t mean something didn’t happen, hon.
“I’m sorry but you seem to have a way of making a “mistake” and having a handy-dandy excuse that sounds strange coming from learned professors mouth: “I’m drunk”, “I’m stoned”, “my girlfriend did it””
All perfectly valid excuses given my lifestyle. It doesn’t matter in any case. It’s not relevant to any of my arguments.
“having a handy-dandy excuse that sounds strange coming from learned professors mouth: “I’m drunk”, “I’m stoned”, “my girlfriend did it””
You evidently have never attended a university, or if you did, you certainly didn’t pay much attention huh?
“(and they still let you in the American military; Wow, who did your background check?!)”
My background check was irrelevant. I joined the military at 17. I was out well before then.
“Admitting that you (people in general) are/were affiliated with a “communist” party is not the thing to do” —
More evidence you haven’t attended university-or well, at least not your average leftist institution. I think at Berkeley it was once a requirement for the Anthro Dept.
“I also recognize that these commenters are coming from genuine place of sincerity when it comes to the uplifting of black or non-white people -I don’t get that kind of vibe from you.”
That’s because you don’t understand me. I’m all for uplifting black people. I’m not for distorting historical truth to do so. I demand specificity and honesty out of historical discussions. You can’t invent the claim that so-and-so was black without substantial evidence to back that up.
“but I do get that you are a supportive of the typical white American ideology when it comes to race and since you stated you were mixed-race, I find your comments and views to be “off” —”
I don’t care. I also don’t understand how you could get such an opinion. My gut instinct is that you just throw statements like that out when someone disagrees and you don’t understand it, like the infamous “Eurocentric” nonsense that goes on around here.
Also, I never said I was “mixed-race,” or if I did, I sure as hell didn’t mean to. I’m a white man with a Choctaw father, not a “mixed-race” person. I don’t not identify as a “person of color.” That whole construct is the stupidest one of all.
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“Asplund,
Haiti doesn’t work for obvious reasons- the fact that Haiti was a former slave colony that did not have the power or capital to benefit from slavery kind of disqualifies it don’t you think? They weren’t exactly powerful enough to influence any kind of world movement.”
Linda says,
are you sure about this, Asplund.
Stop being cryptic, if you wish to say that Toussaint L’Overture was influenced –then spit it out… who was he influenced by?
This is your opportunity to present the “balance” that you always ask Abagond to give… give the balance about Haiti…
if you truly know their history, then can tell us (and cite sources) that show their impact on the world… it does exist
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Wait what? You asked me to cite a single source? Ok I will gladly do so.
For the “Moors” (I don’t know why everyone keeps using that term. It’s like using the term “Indians” when we are talking about specific tribes) just me know what particular statement I made that you’d like to know more about. I’ll gladly direct you to some reading materials and websites that will illuminate those areas for you.
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Asplund, “sweety” — why don’t you save it… you lied, you got caught, deal with it.
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“Stop being cryptic, if you wish to say that Toussaint L’Overture was influenced –then spit it out… who was he influenced by?”
Hey Linda, I’ll just simplify it for you. Read the Declaration of Haitian Independence- it’s directly modeled on the U.S. one.
Ha! Is that a good enough source for you Linda? So is the founding document of the Viet Minh, for that matter. That last bit just some trivia since we were originally talking.
“Post the letter… that is why on the Moor discussion I asked you to cite your resources because you repeating the rote, westernized version of history doesn’t “make your claim” true or false… it just shows you are a great “parrot””
Ok I definitely will. Let me deal with these suckers first.
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*originally talking about Asians.
Just let me know if you need anything boo.
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Asplund, honey boo boo —
I don’t intend to “lead you” in the direction you need to go.. especially since I Point blank asked you on the thread to provide sources.
I don’t get upset if someone disagrees with me — what I don’t like is someone trying to insult me to further their agenda.. any fight you saw I had with other posters stemmed from that… I have never gotten into any Real argument with you where I took it to a personal level because trust, you would remember, I don’t mince my words.
If I think you are an a’shole, then I will call you an “a’shole” — that’s the way I work.. I don’t need to be underhanded…
I’ve already told you what I think about your lies and your Eurocentric POV– it makes you seem insincere as far as supporting black or non-white viewpoints are concerned… you don’t come of as genuine….
what part of that are you not understanding.
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and to be quite frank, you’re acting like an a’shole right now by trying to be a smart a’s….
if you make a claim, Sunshine, back your sh’t up!!!
if not, then you are just full of sh’t… do you understand that, Sweety 🙂
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“Right, because the conflict between the Aztecs and the Spanish goes back to the mists of time, so there is no telling who started it. *sarcasm*”
This is why you can’t stand it when people bring up the crimes of non-westerners. Sure the Spanish started it, along with all those Tlaxcalans sick of being sacrificed. The Spanish felt they were doing the right thing given the Aztecs’ brutality. Hypocritical I know, but it doesn’t make them “the bad guy” of the conflict. The Aztecs lived by the sword and they died by it. They were not innocent victims of anything, and no moral guilt should be handed out to anyone, as you are so prone to self-righteously do.
If anyone is arguing like a little child (like you claim with the whole “he did it too” jazz) then it’s you with, “He started it!” LOL!
“You do not break into a man’s house with a gun and then blame him because he shot first.”
Nope sorry. North America was not the “house” of any one tribe. They fought each other more than they warred against settlers, and in many cases, they actually attacked settlers in wars of expansion, rather than defense. Not every tribe who attacked people who settled on their land, and in some instances they actually attacked settler groups they had treaties with and traded with. The notion that indigenous people never broke a single treaty is a myth. They only stopped breaking treaties once the contest was already decided and they were clearly on the descent.
Also look how juvenile your little moralistic analogy is. You actually compare people settling in a loosely-populated land mass and compare that to breaking in someone’s house. So stupid.
Finally, let’s say it is as simple as breaking into someone’s house. Is it ok to murder 2,000 children who break into your house? Most of the time Indian massacres meant the death of women and children. White settlers did that also, but when they did, it was considered a breech of protocol, not business as usual.
Face it Abagond- The Americas was bound to be colonized by someone. Too much empty space, too many resources, technologically and military ineffective populations isolated from the Old World and thus lacking zootonic disease resistance.
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“Asplund,
Hey Linda, I’ll just simplify it for you. Read the Declaration of Haitian Independence- it’s directly modeled on the U.S. one.
Ha! Is that a good enough source for you Linda?”
Linda says,
no, that’s a cop out and shows that you fail to follow instructions, like a good Soldier…
link the source, so that people can read it for themselves…
discuss Toussaint’s is relationship with the Americans — that will show unbiased and non-partiality on your part…instead, you just dismiss Haiti in the typical “white boy” fashion while elevating the British.
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“especially since I Point blank asked you on the thread to provide sources.”
I did provide some sources did you read them? I don’t remember you asking for them, though. You certainly never commented on them.
“I don’t get upset if someone disagrees with me — what I don’t like is someone trying to insult me to further their agenda.. ”
Then you would have let this go when it died a natural death.
“I’ve already told you what I think about your lies and your Eurocentric POV– it makes you seem insincere as far as supporting black or non-white viewpoints are concerned… you don’t come of as genuine….
what part of that are you not understanding.”
The relevance to the truth of any argument, maybe?
All men take note. This is how women argue. They are irrational and emotional so they make everything personal, about the person making the argument. Weaker beta males/simps do this also.
Men argue with facts and reason, because they value truth.
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The bullsh’t you just wrote is not even comment worthy… but I will say this
Since you are whiny baby who took my comments “personally” and cried about me making “personal attacks”… does that make you by “my b’tch” or “my simp”..
because your responses were NOT manly… excuses, deflections, trying to squirm your way out of your lies…
only weak men try to attack women when they lose face in a discussion…
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@ Asplund
Are you a troll? Why or why not?
Are you racist? Why or why not?
Are you sexist? Why or why not?
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First of all, Haiti is a total shithole-God has dismissed it.
Secondly, anyone can search it out. Just type “Haitian Declaration of Independence” into google and you’ll be able to find a translated copy in 1 second.
In fact, Dessalines was angry that the first draft was “too American!” He wanted the passage to better reflect Haiti’s hatred for whites.
I’m loving it. Linda, what about the Gens de Couleur who fought in the Continental Army? You don’t think anything was picked up there lol! Some of Haiti’s greatest politicians were mixed race vets of that unit.
Finally, I know it isn’t British, but do you seriously suggest that the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and the entire French Revolution didn’t lay the foundation for revolution in St. Domingue? I mean, that’s almost insanity. Haiti was the third republic to arise in the Enlightenment. Do you think it emerged in an historic and ideological vacuum?
Also Haiti sucks. It’s too depressing to continue discussing it. I just want to forget it exists so I don’t feel bad.
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“he bullsh’t you just wrote is not even comment worthy… but I will say this
Since you are whiny baby who took my comments “personally” and cried about me making “personal attacks”… does that make you by “my b’tch” or “my simp”..
because your responses were NOT manly… excuses, deflections, trying to squirm your way out of your lies…
only weak men try to attack women when they lose face in a discussion…”
No babe, weak men flock to the side of she-haters.Strong men call a bird on her ish.
I never lost face once. I’m just trying to keep you on task. Now- Do you disagree about a statement I’ve made? If no, then that’s fine we can just hurl insults back and forth boo.
My last comment is in moderation. You should read it you’ll learn something.
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Asplund “dear”,
since I, personally, didn’t offer my own thoughts on “Haiti”, don’t assume to know what I “do or don’t” know…
you’re not schooling me on anything, “son” — I asked you to cite links and give an unbiased view on Haiti and their link to America, since you are such a believer in “Truth and Balance” (just like Fox News)
and so far, you are failing abysmally in following simple direction..
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Abagond,
The only thing I can truly say about myself is this:
“I ain’t perfect, I ain’t a saint but I am worth it
If it’s one thing, I am worth it, still hating but it ain’t working
Lil’ …………………………………”
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“you’re not schooling me on anything, “son” — I asked you to cite links and give an unbiased view on Haiti and their link to America, since you are such a believer in “Truth and Balance” (just like Fox News)”
Ha. Now I’m evil fox news. My comment is in moderation love.
When it gets unbanned you’ll get it.
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Then Asplund,
I must be a “better” man than you since I called your tweety-a’s on All your lies
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“well Asplund….you can turn in your man card. It is cowardly to disrespect and attack a persons husband in that manner. *smh”
Thus be it always to simps, doll.
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Oh boy Asplund, you got me “shaking in my boots” — I’m so scared — Hahaha
Listen “Sweety”… I don’t mind wallowing in the mud with you because the more you talk, the more you expose who you really are…
Carry on… 🙂
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“Then Asplund,
I must be a “better” man than you since I called your tweety-a’s on All your lies.”
Give me an example, just one example in which you have proof I’m lying? Just one……….
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Here you go again, wanting to be lead by me, Asplund…
by the way, what’s your favorite nail polish “red”
handedor “white”lies…LikeLike
“This just reeks of the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype. Why are Asian Americans being compared to white Americans visiting Asia? I guess I’m just a visitor in “your” country, no different from how you’re a visitor in “my” country, whichever the hell that is. I grew up thinking I was simply American, no more, no less. It’s people who talk like you that made me reassess that. Now I’m wondering if you would have called wordynerdygirl’s husband effeminate if he weren’t Asian.”
Kiwi, I wasn’t comparing white Americans who visit Asia with Asian-Americans. I was comparing Americans of all backgrounds with Koreans from Korea. The Asian-American blogger is only mentioned because she thought he had some kind of argument.
Americans (of all races) have allowed legal immigration of Koreans to America. Those Koreans have become citizens and thus “Korean Americans.” My point was, “How many American-Koreans are there.” In other words, why don’t the Americans get to immigrate to Korea? It was to prove how xenophobic Korea is as a nation. Has nothing to do with Korean-Americans who are American in attitude and behavior.
As for effeminate, well Abagond is effeminate, and he’s black so………
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NO lie hun. Straight truth, or can a white child not be sired by a brown daddy? You need a biology lesson chica.
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Sorry “Honey BOO BOO”, you need to learn when to shut your mouth and speak like the Adult you claim to be
Your own words showed you for a liar…
A real “Man” would admit it, claim it, and move on instead – you went on the attack like the “pinga chulo” you are being right now
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@ Asplund
Apparently you don’t know shit since you have to resort to insults and condescension instead of answering direct questions about your claims.
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Abagond,
Asplund already stated his views on your Anti-white thread:
I mean, why does he care if you (Abagond) chooses not to write about black or non-white people behaving badly… why should he expect you to play King Solomon and try to be “fair and balanced” on your Blog – like you are CNN.
He defends the white American “racial” viewpoint in such an under-stated way most of the time, that if someone is not sharp, they would miss it. (but now he is letting it all hang out)
His blog persona wanted to be seen as sympathetic to non-white issues but then he turned around and said condescending things.
Like in this discussion, where he supports interracial relationships but once we bring in Asian men, he actually backs up Kiwi’s argument that “white men like to belittle Asian men”
He brags about “taking their (Asian) women” because he is physically superior –so he stays “winning”— while Asian men stay “losing” and claims Asian men have to “block” in order to compete with a white guys on the home front.
Tell me how is he different than River Rob with the things he says…
I mean “knock out” games?! … if I asked any of my white neighbors about that topic, they would have No idea what I am talking about .. because that subject is a white race realist talking point. (and I only know about it because of your white race realist always bringing it up)
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Abagond- I don’t even know what people are asking for. They’re not clear in their requests. And yes, a lot of my knowledge is out of my head. That happens when you learn a great deal.
You knew about Dessalines and his anger at the original draft right? You knew about the Gens de Couleur right? A simple wiki search or intro textbook will provide you with this info. I certainly am no specialist about Haitian history. All I really know outside of its revolution and the fact that there was genocide against whites there is that it’s now the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere and rape capital of the world.
Yeah I don’t know shit though. Keep getting hostile.
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“He defends the white American “racial” viewpoint in such an under-stated way most of the time, that if someone is not sharp, they would miss it. (but now he is letting it all hang out)
His blog persona wanted to be seen as sympathetic to non-white issues but then he turned around and said condescending things.”
I’m just responding to personal insults and lames who think they know my family history If anything is condescending, it’s claiming who someone else is when you don’t know that person, right?
Like in this discussion, where he supports interracial relationships but once we bring in Asian men, he actually backs up Kiwi’s argument that “white men like to belittle Asian men”
“He brags about “taking their (Asian) women” because he is physically superior –so he stays “winning”– while Asian men stay “losing” and claims Asian men have to “block” in order to compete with a white guys on the home front.”
1. Don’t think I ever bragged about “taking” anyone’s women. For the record, I’ve slept with women on four continents. Just life now. Don’t get mad, I’m only bein real.
2. I never said “Asian” men have to “block” to do anything. I said that many Korean men run interference because they don’t like competition. Can you even read? Do you understand the difference between what I said and what you said? You need to post that statement and demonstrate where I said that.
I wish I could gamble, because there is 0% chance you are going to post whatever statement you think I made, because you know you can’t read for squat.
“Tell me how is he different than River Rob with the things he says…
I mean “knock out” games?! … if I asked any of my white neighbors about that topic, they would have No idea what I am talking about .. because that subject is a white race realist talking point. (and I only know about it because of your white race realist always bringing it up)”
A lot of reasons, though I don’t know enough about Riverside Rob to hate him. Knockout game is definitely real, and it is a scourge in some cities. Maybe not where you live, but it definitely exists. I Vietnamese-American guy I know lost a member of his community to it.
Again, look at all this blah blah about who I am, what I think, etc. etc.,
Never what I argue.
Here’s some info I think someone requested earlier. It’s just basic stuff from wiki, but I don’t have all night to go through books. I’m also not going to be manipulated around by people who are not educated enough to understand common knowledge.:
“Some other countries that used the Declaration as inspiration or directly copied sections from it is the Haitian declaration of 1 January 1804 from the Haitian Revolution, the United Provinces of New Granada in 1811, the Argentine Declaration of Independence in 1816, ”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence#Influence_in_other_countries
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“Asplund @ Here’s some info I think someone requested earlier. It’s just basic stuff from wiki, but I don’t have all night to go through books.
“I wish I could gamble, because there is 0% chance you are going to post whatever statement you think I made, because you know you can’t read for squat.
Linda says,
Asplund, do you have early dementia? or how juvenile you sound.
we just had this conversation in the last 2 hours, so you’re not sure “who” asked you for the information — it could only be myself or Abagond
Yeah, Asplund, your come back was real strong and definitive…you ask “can I read?” — I guess I can read well enough to call you out as the liar you are, Naijagirl:
Once again in your own words:
Asplund @ on Sun 29 Sep 2013 at 08:55:10 (Comment Policy)
“ Pretty funny that on a predominately african American forum my “y’all” would be noted. For those interested, and since who I am matters a great deal, I’m from West Virginia. Mother is Choctaw. My father is from Finland.”
Asplund @ Fri 1 Nov 2013 at 09:11:58 (Interracial Relationships)
“ He (Your Choctaw “Indian” father) hated and envied whites, yet married a woman from Finland, who had blonde hair, blue eyes, and skin the color of white out. ”
I know, I know… you were “stoned” and drunk that night because you didn’t have a class to teach — yeah, I understand, most people forget “which parent is which” when they are inebriated.
and by the way, why would you need to “hate” Riverside Rob because he is admitted Race Realist… I find him highly amusing and every once in a while, he manages to say something intelligent.
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@ Asplund, since you persist in lying about your academic qualifications:
– Abagond asked you what your PhD was in. You answered ‘history’. A PhD is not coursework based like an undergraduate degree or a professional (non research) Master’s programme. To gain a PhD you would have researched, in depth, a particular historical question or theme that no-one has researched before, or at least from the same angle. You would then have synthesised your ideas into a completely new theoretical framework: i.e. a dissertation.
– You do not respond to what is your PhD in’ in the way that a person with that qualification would reply to that question. Normally, a historian would respond by citing their particular field.
– You have variously claimed that you teach Asian American studies, African history, world history, you name it. At the same time, you’ve said that you teach two courses. What courses are they?
– You make historical claims that do not align with the available evidence. As Abagond pointed out, your claim that Britain was the first nation to abolish slavery was false.
– You do not write clearly and persuasively. When challenged, you resort to straw man and ad hominem attacks. Misrepresenting someone else’s argument is a poor form of argument. Attacking the questioner personally is the least effective form of argument.
– By the way, I am certainly not a historian, although I do possess strong academic qualifications in another field.
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@ Linda
LMAO!!!! Gets his parents mixed up when drunk!!
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@ Linda I loved the way you flipped the ‘boo’ remark to ‘honey boo boo’ 🙂 You are taking his arguments apart and he can’t handle it.
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You know what, wordnerdygirl….
I didn’t even intend for things to get this deep but I guess that’s the way it goes when someone feels cornered.
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Well, Shady, and you Abagond, have missed my point, that I have carefully explained
I didnt say kicking whites out of the movement was the flawed part, it even happened to me at a black meeting, I was invited, some people objeced, I left voluntarily with no problem…I used that to show and prove the general tone of the 60’s, that led to the more militant aspects, that, then some led to flawed thinking, especialy the thinking that thought marxism and mao were hunky dory..not surprisingly, that is the area the more weird mandates start coming out…mandates anybody with a thinking brain can look back on and say is bs
Im saying, and I just dont know why you dont get it, and its the same with your take on tap , since you have not ackowledged my points about re telling the right story,,…if black people feel any uneasy feelings about white people…any at all…absolutly dont get in an interracial relationship with a white person
what is so hard about understanding that? I think you even implied that,yourself in a statement,that its up to the individual…what, is it because Im white making these points you are bringing in the front line battle against white racism, when black activists who were fighting against white racism,and were dating white people, or married, were barred from black activist meetings and shunned?
Shady, you have to look in the mirror about your own willingness to not call these flawed mandates for the bs they are…there is no exccuse to not go back and exonerate those wonderful artists, and, while there are plenty of reasons to be wary of white racism if a black person gets in an interracial relationship, there is no reason to judge another black person for making their own personal desicians
just back off the black people who have made their own personal desicians , because Im finding the rationalisations, the pseudo psycho analysis, the steryotypes and generalisations to be full of it
there is no middle ground on this…what is the right of you (not meaning you personaly, but if your family is uptight about a member being with a white person, they need to look in the mirror about it) or any other black person to sit back and judge another black person for making their own desician? beleive me, if a black person makes a wrong desician marrying a white person, they will pay the consequences…so why is anyone worried about it.
.but what about the millions of us who have made it? those of you banging on this (not you personaly, Shady) start insulting my intelligence
some black person you dont know in an interracial relationship has nothing to do with being on the front lines fighting white racism
didnt I point out that black activists, men and women , who got beat by police and jailed, were banned from black activist meetings for being with white people?…maybe they were fighting against white racism exactly for the right to date who they want to…how about that? Really , Shady, Abagond, Mary, what do you have to say about that?
shady , you keep rationalising, you rationalise about Armstrong using Miles Davis, I gave you the truth on that , and Wynton told the whole story and the reality, why are you ducking it?, you keep rationalising about tap, you just cant go and open your arms and praise and recognise the genius of those artists, you tie it to the steryotypes white people put on it, and rationalise styles change…and , you want to somehow justify that attitudes against interracial relationships have some basis because of horrible wrongs done to black people by white people..not that you have these attitudes (right? you have made some good statements about if people are uptight about it its their problem),
I say there is no middle ground on this, and there are millions of interracial relationships that succeed that blow any steryotypes and generalisations away
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@ Asplund: Comment deleted for dehumanizing language.
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Abagond you know that’s weak sauce. There was no ” dehumanizing language” in that rock- solid scorching of Linda and that other girl.
Acting like you are all impartial. Show me where I was dehumanizing if you don’t mind?
Came up, that’s Asplund,
Stay true, that’s Asplund,
No help, that’s Asplund,
Asplund, for real.
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“Asplund,
What’s funny is that again you proved me right-you didn’t mention what I posted. Ha even while trying to attack me over it you still didn’t wanna argue about Haiti.”
Linda says,
Asplund, you are SUCH a retard (in my best Valley Girl voice)… you have no arguments or viable positions — and think you are going to fool anyone with your weak “side-stepping” … continue to squirm — worm
Argument — what argument? Are you stoned again, professor 🙂
because you know good and well I didn’t tell you what I know (or didn’t know) about Haiti — what was my position again? I forgot since I didn’t say it.
Nope — didn’t have that discussion with you… I never gave you my opinion one way or the other about Haiti — I was asked you “oh, learn-ed PhD of History” to back up your stance and position on Haiti…
I’m still waiting for you to bring in your knowledge from that deep well in your head —- oops, forgot you can’t do that because you freely admitted that you know NOTHING about Haiti (skimming Wikipedia doesn’t count), and that you typically pull information from your A’s….
Here’s your assignment for today: you have to look up the word “Credibility” —
and find out what it means… I’ll give you a hint:
“Credibility is something that you have lack on this blog and continue to lose Every time you open your mouth.”
Credibility is what our discussion has always been about Sunshine… nothing more, nothing less… it’s something that Randy and RiverRob have because at the very least, they have enough balls to admit that they are race-realists.
I guess you lost yours when you got stoned? maybe it’s in the same spot where you lost your Choctaw mother…oops forgot, your Finnish mother or is she Scottish… can’t keep up with all your lies.
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@ Asplund
You do not refer to people as if they are animals.
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Abagond,
this punk knows he got caught — that’s why he’s trying to pull up his “big girl” pants — trying to hang with the grown ups in the room.
His students must love him because they can save a lot of money by not having to buy history books for his class.
since he pulls most of the information from his head
a’sand doesn’t have links or references “handy” to present when he is asked to back up his statementsEven primary schools in Haiti have school books that contain links to websites … I guess he lost his in a drunken haze.
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@ Linda & wordynerdygirl
Lmao!
Asplund is a PhD? Really? I admit I don’t read a lot of threads here these days, but that just takes the biscuit! LOL.
I’d never have guessed about the PhD thing because real historians just don’t speak so generally or dismissively about original documents or research materials. Doctorate supervision would simply not accept mere citations/quotes from standard books/documents. Although sometimes a taught component can exist, Doctorates require not only a DEFENCE of a unique and original subject, but ready PROVISION of evidences, under rigour. Asplund doesn’t do this…
Under questioning, there seems to be a reluctance to provide such.
There is also no reference at all to specialism (history has a huge range of divisions and even more sub-divisions).
There’s no mention of methodologies, approach, recognition of relativism or problems surrounding the conceits of “objectivity” and truth. for example.
No nod to parallel disciplines or or anything anyone would call “revelatory ideas” or provable analyses, and so on.
The dismissive attitude towards Haiti is telling: Haiti’s original document of Independence was only found a few years ago, in London’s National Archives (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/world/americas/01document.html).
That is quite a significant find.
It revised what we think we know about that place and time.
For historians, the outcome of this find has made them pay “increasing attention to the Haitian Revolution and have recognized its central role in the making of the modern world. Based on the world’s only successful slave revolution, Haiti’s Declaration of Independence in 1804 now represents a major turning point in the trajectory of social, economic, and political relations in the Atlantic World.”
http://legalhistoryblog.blogspot.ie/2013/03/the-haitian-declaration-of-independence.html
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@ Asplund
You do not seem to be old enough to take part on this blog. You might have to wait till you are 15 or 16. In the meantime I am moderating your comments so that you do not plunge threads into insult matches every time someone calls you on your B.S.
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Bulanik, don’t feed him the information…
I purposely didn’t write anything about Haiti because I wanted him to bring in his own links to back up his claims…
he made a strong statement that he did not “flesh” out by bringing in hard facts (ie references, resources, links)… he based his premise on his own emotional opinion and a quick skimming of Wikipedia
he doesn’t even understand the relevance (or lack of relevance) of the “Gens de Couleur” when it comes to the Haitian revolution but he brought them up anyway — as if, he had a clue as to what they meant to the revolution
if he wants to be taken seriously, then when he says something significant– he needs to back his sh’t up..
not give 2 sentences and then wait for me or other commenters to fill in the blank spots because he doesn’t know.
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@ Linda
Yup.
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Since Abagond insists on using his bullying powers to ban and “moderate” my comments, I’m at a disadvantage, but I believe strongly in education, even of those who show hostility towards it.
Bulanik-
“Asplund is a PhD? Really? I admit I don’t read a lot of threads here these days, but that just takes the biscuit! LOL.”
Why exactly? Phds come with all sorts of opinions. There are black separatists and neo-nazis with phds. There are phds searching for UFOs right now, and not the kind who work at hi-tech labs.
“I’d never have guessed about the PhD thing because real historians just don’t speak so generally or dismissively about original documents or research materials. Doctorate supervision would simply not accept mere citations/quotes from standard books/documents. Although sometimes a taught component can exist, Doctorates require not only a DEFENCE of a unique and original subject, but ready PROVISION of evidences, under rigour. Asplund doesn’t do this…
Under questioning, there seems to be a reluctance to provide such.”
I’m not writing a dissertation, though. I’m commenting on a website. The level of rigor isn’t the same. This doesn’t help my c.v., nor am I being paid. I have to be more general in many instances because of constraints of time and the fact that this is what I do for recreation.
“There is also no reference at all to specialism (history has a huge range of divisions and even more sub-divisions).”
I’d like to keep my privacy as much as possible, and I did include some info regarding my specialization in the post that was banned (where I “dehumanized” women by referring to them as baby birds, you know that word that every one uses, or at least use to use, that starts with a “C”).
Here goes though. My specialization is 20th century Japan, with a special focus on Japan’s Pacific Empire 1933-1945. I earned my phd at the University of Osaka. One aspect I appreciate about my Asian education is that I didn’t have to deal with political correctness/constraints on my thinking. That’s important for history.
My primary meta-theory is Sociobiology, that is to say, I strongly believe that Selective Processes determines historical development. I don’t believe that is always the case, but I do believe that natural selection is the closest process we have to an historical “force.”
Methodologically, I prefer a “Historical Particularist” approach, keeping very close to primary sources and taking the claims of participants and history-makers very seriously.
I’m totally opposed to post-modernism, most modes of feminist theory, critical race theory, etc. Politically I fall on the right side of the spectrum. In terms of my current party affiliation, I am libertarian (having been a former communist, that’s a dissertation unto itself).
I believe in objective truth. I don’t necessarily believe any one individual can achieve a completely unbiased presentation of any topic, but I believe that it is necessary to strive for objectivity at all times. When individuals dismiss objectivity out of hand, it always seems to come at the expense of the narrative’s connection to the sources. All sorts of ideas can be crafted if we no longer have to rely on sources. Personally, I believe contemporary Afro-centrism is a perfect example of a theoretical perspective that dismisses objectivity at its own peril.
The N.Y. times article is interesting, but the N.Y. Times isn’t an academic journal. It’s not that Haiti isn’t interesting, someone has to study it, but the N.Y. Times is not a reliable source regarding what most historians are concerned with at any point in time.
“The dismissive attitude towards Haiti is telling”
Telling about what? Haiti is a failed state and a failed society. When I became an historian I didn’t sign on to cultural relativism and take an oath to love all societies equally. I despise corrupt governments and I despise cyclical poverty. I admire societies that escape poverty. Countries like contemporary Rwanda, for example.
Hope that answers your questions.
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Abagond-
Before I address Linda and provide her with some reading material I want you to take stock.
Seriously look at all of the comments made insulting me. Don’t just, in a knee-jerk fashion accuse me of “whining” or suggest that I’m “15” or whatever insult you want to use, but seriously consider why it is that I’m forced to defend myself from a multi-angled personal assault on my ethnic identity, occupation, even manhood, etc
Why is that? Seems like everyone would be considered with my arguements-i.e. the statements I’ve made. As much as you seem to love history it seems like you would be more interested than that.
Wordnerdygirl-
My reply to you was deleted. Here’s the gist of it:
I think I’ve provided my academic credentials above to Bulanik. Hope that answers the first part of your question.
As for my using ad hominem attacks, seriously? Every single one of my detractors comments, including yours, for the last who knows how long, has been an ad hominem attack.My ethnicity, my occupation, my level of education- anything but the argument I made about racism/xenophobia, and interracial relationships in Korea.
“only weak men try to attack women when they lose face in a discussion…”
Just ridiculous how ignorant women can get on the web. “Real” men attack women all the time, particularly when they step out of line.
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Linda-
So you ignored replying to my statements as a strategy huh? Not because you didn’t know anything about what I was talking about?
Here’s a source for you. It’s a standard intro textbook (I don’t have any specialized books on Haiti-it’s five in the morning and I’m still too sloshed to drive to the library.;
“World History in Brief: Major Patterns of Change and Continuity”: Peter Stearns, page 445.
“L’Ouveture, inspired by French revolutionary doctrines and eager to use France’s own distraction by war and revolution, not only ended Haitian slavery but also set up the first black republic in the new world.”
Here is what happened: You can wiki it and get every sort of citation you’d like. I’m not going to write your term paper for you, though.
There was a French enlightenment intellectual, Jacques Paul-Brissot, who headed up a society called “The Society of the Friends of the Blacks.” The society actually persuaded the National Assembly to ban slavery in Haiti in 1794. L’Overture actually served as governor of Haiti on behalf of the French Republic way before he was defeated by the forces of Napoleon and imprisoned. L’Overture was chosen specifically due to his connections to Brissot, L’Overture was charged with implementing principles of “Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite” on the island, and the redistribution of wealth from the former plantation masters to the now-freed population. Keep in mind, this was prior to the second and final revolt that upset Napoleon’s plan to reabsorb Haiti and hastened the Louisiana Purchase (Napoleon lost Haiti, which amounted to 50% of France’s foreign trade. There was no reason to keep the Louisana Territories after its loss).
As for Gens de Coeleur, they were mix-raced Haitians who served L’Overture during the brief period Haiti was governed by the First Republic.
http://today.duke.edu/showcase/haitideclaration/haitiusa.html
“Likely encouraged by American independence, planters and free people of color in Saint-Domingue began agitating for an end to racist legislation and greater access to political rights. Then, in August 1791, a massive slave insurrection began in the northern plain of the colony. It became the largest and most successful slave revolt in history, leading to the abolition of slavery in the colony in 1793, a decision ratified and extended to the entire French empire in 1794.
Saint-Domingue’s slave revolution posed delicate problems for both England and the leadership of the recently formed United States. Beginning in 1794, France pursued a policy of “revolutionary emancipationism,” using abolition as a weapon of war against the British to recruit armies of former slaves and encourage uprisings in enemy colonies. France also outfitted and rewarded privateers in the Caribbean. The crews of these ships were often populated with former slaves and they regularly captured North American ships. French privateering led to a break in U.S.-French relations in the late 1790s. Simultaneously, the chaotic situation in the French Caribbean provided an attractive opening for some North American traders, who profited handsomely by expanding their long-standing links with the colony.”
L’Overture was an intellectual leader, referred to as the “George Washington of Haiti,” and he attempted to push through a constitution based on that adopted by the new United States. He was not a brute like the racist murderer Dessalines. John Relly Beard is L’Overture’s first great biographer. I’m sure his book is on google books. As for modern biographies I’m not in the know as to which one’s are considered superior/more thorough.
As for the declaration’s similarities to that of the earlier U.S., or even the constitution’s similarity to that of the U.S., you could always read them, Then you wouldn’t have to take my word, or some other website’s word, for it.See the obvious similarities for yourself.
Nothing comes out of a vacuum. Everything is drawn from the past, and it’s totally understandable that the Haitians would have used the older American documents as models and then adapted them to the Haitian climate. Once you read them, you’ll see how obvious it is. If you google them and can’t find them online, I’ll get you a link. It’s easy though.
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Abagond-
How’s that “moderation” going?
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“this punk knows he got caught — that’s why he’s trying to pull up his “big girl” pants — trying to hang with the grown ups in the room.”
Hey Abagond can you delete this? This seems pretty “dehumanizing,” right?
Man my sexuality is on everyone’s lips out here. You know what that means.
Someone has a cru—ush!
Ha now I’m a child. How many children deliver comments like the ones above Linda?
Abagond- How many 15-16 year olds can get around your ban?
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@Asplund
My advice to you is to put down the booze. This has become a pattern for you. Go on and on about what an amazing man you are suppose to be. Then insult people. Then cry wolf. You are not a victim so stop the constant whining and man up. Your own words are killing you. If you look back at our exchange it was the same darn thing and if you are in repeat situations on every single thread then it is time you check yourself.
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Abagond-
If I’m so childish, then why’d you create this thread based on Loving vs. Virginia, about a day after I brought it up in your comments?
“You do not refer to people as if they are animals.”
You know damn well I didn’t “dehumanize” anyone. The next time someone refers to someone as a “cat,” or “that guy is a beast,” are you going to delete that comment? Ridiculous. As far as I’m concerned this is a total mangina statement. No wonder you hate Sotomayor. Look at you bullying people with your “comment policy.”
Enjoy.
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“My advice to you is to put down the booze. This has become a pattern for you. Go on and on about what an amazing man you are suppose to be. Then insult people. Then cry wolf. You are not a victim so stop the constant whining and man up. Your own words are killing you. If you look back at our exchange it was the same darn thing and if you are in repeat situations on every single thread then it is time you check yourself.”
This is just like what happened with you. Remember when I proved my argument factually about irr. You did the same ish there. More “Man up.” “Quit Whining.”
I’m not whining at all. I’m proclaiming victory. You’ll see in 100% of exchanges, just like this one I’m having with you right now, that it was always someone else who started up with me.
“If you look back at our exchange it was the same darn thing and if you are in repeat situations on every single thread then it is time you check yourself.”
That’s because there are lots of loud-mouthed, uneducated women who harp and get in the way of my dropping facts.
I mean, look at what you just did. You didn’t dispute one single thing I said in the above posts. Not one thing- just more talk about how I need to “man up.”
You need to “woman up” and be quiet. Go sit in the kitchen and make me something, instead of discussing affairs of state with people who actually know something.
And don’t say I started in with you boo because it’s clear I’m retaliating.
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Legion-
I adapt my style to my audience.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/journey/american_connection/slavery/timeline.shtml
i know i found something more detailed than the above link, but i have no centralized system for that type of thing.
Haiti is messed up, I have actually been there, but isn’t that kind of off-topic?
Asplund said, “More evidence you haven’t attended university-or well, at least not your average leftist institution. I think at Berkeley it was once a requirement for the Anthro Dept.”
certainly in new jersey the teacher’s union is a bastion of the left-wing, and obviously american academia has this ‘reputation,’ eg tenure, unions, etc.
My roommate in LA once was on a little kick like that and sent request for information to the USMC from the “communist organization of LA” or some crap and they sent him recruitment flyers with that as the address, under his name, so … plus background checks are a whole different story in the computer age.
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Asplund said:
Okay, this is just a blog, who on here is writing for our living, or for their reputations and careers for an outside academic body and a stake in our real lives, really? It isn’t ALWAYS necessary for EVERYONE to stump up references to back up EVERYTHIING one says, or “justify” the knowledge one possesses. Fine.
*************************************
Very good — you are a Right-wing, anti-feminist Libertarian, a subscriber to Sociobiology (racism/misogyny/eugenics).
*************************************
People here write what they know, feel, remember, memorize or just share what’s on their mind, and do so all the time, without having a flashlight shown up their ar$es. That would be harassment.
Probably most of the time, a commenter simply does not know where their various ideas and thoughts and knowledge sprang from.
Frankly, I don’t care too much about knowing either: I’ve met some very smart and very versatile people in my life, and they know a lot of stuff. I’ve always taken pleasure in the knowledge of others, feeling no envy or intimidation about it. .
So, when I read commentaries here, I don’t usually care about sources. Emphasis on “usually”.
But I suppose what I do expect is some regard for the subject under discussion, especially if someone actually declares themselves as A Scholar.
You drew a line of demarcation when you volunteered that, and reminded us of your credentials.
That’s all. Because you say you are academic. Because you say are a scholar, it shouldn’t be surprising to you that you would be questioned about your standard of knowledge about history if you say you’re An Historian!!
I have neutral feelings towards academics, but if they declare themselves as such, then I do expect a measure of seriousness and depth in their answers.
This you do not show.
And, again, I’ve no interest in what is private to you. I was asking about your specific and academic approach.
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@peanut hey, it’s been a minute…
yeah, “12 years a slave” not exactly a date movie from what i heard… I don’t think my gf would really want to go to the theater to see that, not sure i would but we get all the new dvd’s around the way here, we don’t have that one yet, i’d watch it with her.
good luck to your friends, not sure how they can step around that stuff
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@Peanut
I’m not sure. I think it depends on intelligence and maturity, as to whether or not one is able to mentally place themselves in that position beyond their “White male skin” and sympathise just on a humanity basis. Ignorance would get in the way of this. As v8 said, it’s something that will come up, there’s no getting around it, and will ultimately determine whether or not you’re compatible as a BW with that particular WM.
The director of the movie (a BM) actually brought Madonna along as his date to the premiere, despite the content of the movie, and the racist things she said about BM and the Black community in the past. He obviously didn’t feel anything about it. I’ve long assumed many BW are more “militant” in this area (their Blackness/pride/their history) than many BM. I don’t know. But it isn’t something you can get around. Your Black, he’s White, your a woman, he’s a man. I’m not angry at WW because their ancestors were part of the abuse, degradation, and servitude of my ancestors. I tend to approach it like that.
AS LONG AS THEY’RE NOT DISMISSING IT. But that would go for non BM and BM.
@Legion
No, I was saying I (personally) have been reading Abagond’s blog now for a while, without commenting, and I have always loved your commentary.
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Bulanik-
I don’t advocate racism or eugenics, nor does any actual sociobiologist.
The “M-word” doesn’t have any power over me, as I don’t acknowledge even the basics about femiinism, and that is really just a talking point as far as I’m concerned.
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Bulanik-
I’ll provide sources for anything. Remember my conversation about slavery in Egypt? Everything I included regarding the “Moors,” The direct quotations from Ibn Battuta and Ibn Khaldun. The problem here is that they aren’t going to be acknowledged. That’s a lot of work when someone is just going to turn around and talk about who your mother is.
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Peanut , I dont know if I would go out to see the movie ,I would never set myself or a mate up to be sitting in a public theater to be scrutinised about how we feel from other people around us, but, I dont think I would have any problem watching it with my first wife or second…and, I know if they felt uncomfortable , they could count on me for support…they sure wouldnt equate me with the white slave owner
I dont have white guilt , I even had relatives on my mom’s side who helped on the underground railroad…yeah, I know that doesnt mean anything..
you know, in my case, once I start living with a mate , if she is black, she knows right away ,I am sympathetic with what she has to deal with…color conflicts or race conflicts dont really come up between us, and that is pretty much with any black woman I have ever been with, never have come up…and its not like its a closed issue at all, all my women who happened to be black, knew I was sympathetic to the white racism they had to face
Shady, one thing Im curioius about the people in your family , who you think would , or are, uptight about one of the family members in an interracial relationship, who were injured on the front line fighting white racism, did they forget white people died figthing on the front line against white racism also?
Does that account for anything? Could they not seperate the differance?
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Ill tell you also, the women of color Ive been with and my afro descendant son , would be more angry at things that Ive seen on here than any movie about slavery
we really have to be on guard from all sides now, not just white racism
the ignorance is just astounding, i have no pateince for anti interracial sex, not even a pubic hair
anybody bringing that bs within ear shot of my wife , son and myself can expect a bristling hostile in your face responce
people who think they can just rattle this anti interracial sex all bodacious and like no one is going to get in their face , is making a serious mistake
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“v8driver:
yeah, “12 years a slave” not exactly a date movie from what i heard… I don’t think my gf would really want to go to the theater to see that, not sure i would”
You have no problem with dating, having sex with a black woman but when it comes to a movie, that chronicle black people’s experience with slavery, you say, “not sure i would.”
This figures as its no surprise to me, that the majority, if not all of white people, have no problem having sex with black people but when it comes to them, facing our past and dealing with the social aspects of our oppression in the past and present, they aren’t willing to go that far.
I am not for interracial relationships, between white and black people, period.
That being said, if one does chooses these white oppressors that really don’t want you for nothing other than a sexual fetish, conquest, i feel they should share the pain, that their black partners go through.
They shouldn’t be able to have their cake and eat it too. Meaning, they get to experience the black flesh of black men and women but carry no burden, whatsoever.
if they truly cared for the black person they are having sex with, they will not only go watch a movie, documenting one account of a black man’s experience during slavery, they would share in ALL the experiences to some extent or as much as they could as to not come across, Callous.
I know as a white person, they will never fully know the experience of being a black person but they can get a idea if they are willing to expose themselves to these kinds of situation that could make them better people in terms of how they view the black experience and in turn, treat black people as they would, their fellow white people, going forward.
Then the next time a black person, reveals and shares an account of racial discrimination, it won’t be met with skepticism or doubt.
By the way, when a white person feels upset or sad, when watching a movie about slavery, its not the same as feeling, “uncomfortable”.
Some whites feel, convicted or self-conscious and get angry at the black person for putting them in a situation that would make them feel this way, so they get defensive and lash out.
This is the type of reaction i am referring too, just in case anyone might misinterpret what i am trying to communicate.
This is a small price to pay for a white person, having sex with a black person but ONLY if that white person, really cares for and or loves that black person but more often than not, this is too high a price to pay for dating/ having sex with a black person, them feeling uncomfortable. Your history and current experiences, ( a black person ) isn’t as important enough as theirs feelings of guilt.
This just exposes once again, how white people only look at us, black people as pieces of meat to have sex with, when they don’t have their foot on our neck.
I’ll have sex with you but if that requires me to be put in any social racial situation, that would make me feel any white guilt, that is too much for me to bare. I’ll watch a black comedy with an all black cast with you, that’s as far as i will go, sorry!
You WOULD think, that someone who, “claims” to love you for you, regardless of your race, would be sensitive enough to not only watch such material with you but would with great interest and not just for the sake of trying to, appease your black partner by going through the motions, just to come off like you’re sympathetic to “your” struggle. You would be wrong to think this…
Taking a white partner person to watch, 12 years a slave? ( white men won’t feel comfortable the whole time, watching a movie with such, subject matter. )
Honey, can we role play like in the movie? Can i be your slave master and call you a “NBW”? ( when it comes to sex, they’re more than comfortable, bringing up such subject matter. )
Time waits for no man……
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@sondis ah wow i’m in public now, and talkin to my friend, miss yvonne probably wouldn’t want to go to that movie, really
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I have no white guilt, who wouldnt be comfortable with this movie is my wife , who has suffered more humiliation working for white people than this whole blog put together…and she never equated me with the slave master
No black woman I was ever with had fears being with a white man hinted at being with a slave master…none
Nobody sets bs rules for me , like its an obligation to run a gauntlet…phuc that
Go find a weak punk to run that crap on…I wouldnt trust hollywood to guide me in squat
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@sondis ah dude…. that’s so wrong
“”Honey, can we role play like in the movie? Can i be your slave master and call you a “NBW”? ( when it comes to sex, they’re more than comfortable, bringing up such subject matter. )”
hell no i got fuckin pissed she was talkin to her daughter on the phone jokin ha ha remember we played that fuck no dude i dont do that you stupid
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wow man
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Yeah, Abagond, I guess I would raise a moderation flag after what I just said, ha….because that s h I t can kiss my behind
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i just downloaded the solomon northrup book on my laptop didnt get to start it yet but thanks for reminding me i shouldn’t just be sitting here lolligaggin…
and i been posted i talked to black women about that is a real phenomenon as about the whole thing of raping slaves and that’s why they wouldn’t date a white person, i’m aware of that thanks. again, projecting psychological drama into something that really isn’t like that, sorry dude.
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“v8driver
“miss yvonne probably wouldn’t want to go to that movie, really”
Well, i guess that sums her up pretty well. A black woman, that wouldn’t want to see a movie about the struggles of her ancestors?
Can you say, “white identified, white washed, sell out?
which is typical of black women, who date white men. Black women, take on white men’s ideology. He doesn’t like to watch those types of movies about black people, so in order to not make him, ( a white man ) “uncomfortable” , She doesn’t want to watch those type of movie with him.
I never heard of a Jewish person say, “i don’t want to watch any movie about the Holocaust” Then again, they are not considered Jews anymore, they are white.
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Its not like we didnt have Dorathy Dandredge with Curt Jergins on a slave ship in my time..
Save that crap for a weak punk
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@ B.R.: Three comments deleted for insulting and obscene language.
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Sure thing, Abagond, just let it be known, in real life, it doesnt play out like this
I got all the responce I need in real life to handle this
Diarréia is a banned word ?
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@sondis at the movie theater, she likes scary movies, she’s at work, i will ask her for you.
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@sondis my ex-wife was jewish, i’m think we saw maybe 4 movies at the theater when i knew her, over 15 years, it’s a valid point, but we didn’t go out of our way to watch schindler’s list on a big screen, also it came out 5 years before we met, i can’t think of an appropriate analogue for like 1998-2008, but for one thing having it blasted in your face on a huge screen is even more impact, and well i’m not sure, i am curious to see what she will say now.
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^^ 10 years
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also, going to the movies is like a $50 event lately, i believe i stated we would watch it on dvd, i’m going to read the book too., sheesh!
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@ v8driver
Same here. I will wait for the DVD. Besides, it sounds too upsetting to watch in public.
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I will wait for it to be online or at redbox rofl. I wouldn’t want to see it in the theaters because people are always watching for a black person’s reaction when it comes to these kinds of movies.
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v8driver:
ah dude…that’s so wrong”
Maybe be but its based on the fact that it happens all the time in interracial relationships, when it comes to black women and white men, its just that the majority of black women, keep it on the hush and they are ashamed of admitting to such treatment by their white masters. They would rather be degraded in this manner by a white man in exchange for the perks that come with being taken care of by the white man.
Here is one example:
” Wife Complains to ‘Essence’ Magazine About Her Husband Using Racial Slurs During S*x
Tweet
by Yvette Carnell
A woman who identifies herself only as “Black and Proud”, something she’s obviously not, wrote Essence magazine to complain about black woman’s bodyher nice, rich white husband using racial slurs during s*x:
My man keeps calling me a “n!gger b***h” during s*x and I hate it.
She hits us with that nugget first, then continues:
The first time he let the n-word drop was during s*x on our honeymoon. When I reacted negatively, he explained that a Black woman he dated in the past enjoyed being called racial slurs. Another time he joked that he had purchased my freedom. He also speculated about whether his family could have owned mine because I have “good hair.” Then he made jokes about my p*bic hair. He called it my “negro bush” and referred to himself as a “n!gger lover.” He says I am being overly sensitive because he loves me to d***h and should get a “Black pass” for marrying me.
And to finish things off, she throws shade at all black men:
Unlike all of the Black men I dated in the past, my husband is generous, loyal, committed and considerate.
This is the sort of nonsense that clogs my newsfeed.
Anyway, Abiola Abrams answers “Black and Proud”, who Abrams refers to as “queen”, with the sort of self-empowerment speech you’d expect. Truth is, however, “Black and Proud” could use a bit more straight talk and a lot less sympathy.
If this story is true (doubtful), then the woman writing into Essence asking for advice, whom I will refer to only as “Stupid”, deserves exactly what she is getting. If you read carefully, you’ll see that Stupid’s biggest concern is “not working” and “maintaining her new lifestyle”. Hence, she needs to get over it and become “n!gger b***h” in bed. She knew he had this fantasy. It did not just crop up like a bad bugga-boo on their honeymoon night. No way.
She needs to stop pretending she is turned off, and if she is it was way before this and now all she is worried about is money. She won’t get much of her banker husband’s investments after only 1 year of marriage. Better stick it out. Drop some babies. Wear earplugs. c*t the ‘good hair’. Start wearing do-rags and ‘blacker-face’ to bed… you know, make being n!gger b***h fun!
No matter what she does, she should stop wasting the time of Essence editors and women of color with her nonsense. We have real issues to worry about.”
Time waits for no man….
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@abagond i can’t pretend i wouldn’t be uncomfortable too in public, i mean i would watch it
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me: “so this guy is harassing me on my blog” {air quotes}
miss yvonne: (sideways look)
“oh you mean that racial shit, noone has time for that bullshit”
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thereupon i did ask, “the question is whether you would see 12 years a slave at the movies with me,”
miss yvonne continued: “You’re just giving yourself a headache on top of a headachce don’t you have enough of a headache already?”
I said, yeah it’s making my ulcer hurt worse (close to true)
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@V8
I think you should watch it on dvd and make it a private and intimate matter. That way if it does upset her you can comfort her without prying or starring eyes. Of course you could also do this in public. Just a suggestion.
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yeah, dvd
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I don’t wanna see 12 years in public for the same reason. I don’t wanna see it with a White audience.
Side note: saw some pictures of the Black female lead, from the movie, at the premiere. . . Wow! What a stunningly beautiful Black woman!
@Sondis
Shock horror!
Man, I came across that about a year ago. On another blog, after joking with myself and another sista online, over the fact that we were going hard on Tarantino over the “n word” being over-used in “Pulp fiction,” one of the brothas jokingly posted it and asked if it was one of us to tease. Lol.
This story shocked me when I came across it. How could she do that? And how can she paint him as a saint in comparison to the Black men of her past when he is literally degrading and abusing her? Black and proud? Why isn’t she thinking of the consequences of having a WM with that kind of outlook, raise their future Black children? But she won’t leave over money? Call me naive, but it really had never occurred to me that BW like that actually exist. Black and proud? More, like, sad and sorry, sad, sad, and sorry some mo.’
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@ sondis,
Hilarious story from Essence. What people do for money…lol. Also good point about the movie.
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@ Kiwi
Where did I say that?
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“Ebonymonroe:
Call me naive, but it really had never occurred to me that BW like that actually exist.”
It never occurred to you, because black women, typical would never reveal this, being they are too proud and ashamed of being exposed, that they allowed for a white man to use them as a sex object and degrade them in such a blatant way.
Another reason it never occurs to black women that this actually happens, because the majority of white men, will NEVER come out and be so blatant about their hidden racism to go as far to verbalize it and actually expect for the the black women, to be FINE with it and go along with it!
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“ks:
Hilarious story from Essence. What people do for money…lol. Also good point about the movie.”
That was a perfect example of white supremacy at work. The white man, using his white privilege to convince a black woman into a self-degrading role in the bed room. -_-
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“Kiwi
@ sondis
I know where you’re coming from.
none is exempt from white supremacy, Kiwi. -_-
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@Kiwi,
It is obvious that your Aunts have no real contact with blacks and have not studied much non-white US history. What they learn about blacks comes from their white husbands and from TV / movies.
Have you had much chance to talk to Asians who
– grew up in black neighborhoods or went to black schools
– married blacks?
– worked or operated businesses in black neighborhoods?
– have majority black colleagues / coworkers?
– worked with, or along side black institutions or organizations?
Do you notice any difference or similarity?
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“Peanut:
“I actually agree with you, a black person who avoids the movie intentionally, not because it’s too sad or it will stress them out.”
Yeah, these are the worst kinds of house Negros and Negresses, black people.
ingrates…. -_-
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@Abagond,
I can’t speak for Kiwi, but I admit you have done this a number of times. For example, that is basically what you said in this post:
You have alluded it in other posts, eg,
(You did revise the text of that slightly after it was pointed out to you, but I still think it is not a fair picture.)
I’d have to search hard to find where you have done this in the comments area, but I remember other comments.
There is a definite foot on the necks of Asians too. I think that in the back of your mind, you probably know that, but perhaps even you have been clouded by the Model Minority Stereotype (even though you publicly rallied against it). The foot is not placed exactly in the same way that it is placed on blacks, but it is there, clear and square. If you are still in doubt, just ask yourself why is America willing to elect a black president, but not an Asian-American one? Why do people drop their jaws when an Asian-American hits the NBA spotlight? They would find it interesting, but not jaw dropping if a black American, say, had a successful internet startup. There are tons of other foots on the back of necks out there.
It is NOT a contest. No one is denying that there is a foot on the necks of blacks. But blacks are not the only ones with a foot squarely on their necks.
The heaviest foot at all comes from omitting Asian-American history from the collective consciousness and historical narrative, as thought Asians appeared in the USA only in the 1970s. They can’t allow them to know the REAL history of what happened.
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Once when I was standing at the counter in a Chinese restaurant awaiting my order, I noticed that of the two men behind the counter preparing the food, one was boldly staring right in my face. A couple of seconds later he turns and mumbles something to the second man. The second man then looks up at me, nods, and, with an as-a-matter-of-fact tone to his voice, says, “yeah, buh shee nah nee-gah”.
Hmm….
To this very day (I was probably in my late teens / early twenties at the time) I’m still trying to convince myself that the second guy did not say what I thought he said; that, more than likely, he was speaking in a language which is unfamiliar to me — a dialect of Mandarin, perhaps. . . . 😉
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^ “nei ge” means “that” or “the” in Mandarin. It is an urban legend that people thought they are saying the n-word when it is merely the most common word article in the language.
Strongly suggest that Americans learn Mandarin, the language on the planet with the most speakers, well over a billion — Even adding both English and Spanish first language and second language speakers together does not even come close.
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My comment referenced an actual occurence in my own life. I was NOT relating some “urban legend”.
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^ It seems like you completely misunderstood my point. ;/
I wasn’t suggesting that it was purely an urban legend or that it was not a very real event that happened in your life.
What I am suggesting is that they were probably simply speaking their dialect and you got sensitive to some syllables which sound somewhat similar to the n-word being repeated. The reason why such syllables are repeated is because it is such a common article, it is almost impossible to say a sentence without injecting that n-word sounding article. For example, if he said,
A:”which order does that belong to?”, (used “nei ge” word)
B: the woman over there (again used “nei ge” word)
A: which one?
B: THAT woman (again used “nei ge” word while all eyes are staring at you)
I have actually heard it happen like this.
The reason I said it was an urban legend was it has been circulated so many times that when blacks see Asians staring right at them saying “nei ge”, they think they are saying the n-word when they are not. I would have thought you would have heard it by now. If not, I hope you now understand.
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Well, that settles that. It certainly sounded just like nee-gah, as opposed to nay-gee or whatever, but I’ll take your word for it.
And, nope, I’d never heard that particular urban legend until now. It’s a good thing I erred on the side of caution and remained calm, rather than chewing that guy out..
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Sounds like a problem of language, you always have to be careful when hearing people speak another language. Pay It Forward, if they were talking about you in the negative they would most likely say it in their own language. Although occasionally you will find someone go out of their way to say something nasty in English, most foreign people are very conscious about how they sound in English. I don’t know how many languages I have heard something that would be offensive if it was actually in English. Then again even when it is in English sometimes the words don’t have the same meaning because it is not the same contextual meaning. Like “American Dog” = Hot Dog
or Hair/make being a beautician. Usually, when hearing languages I don’t fully understand I just sit back and listen.
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Actually, King of Trouble, it didn’t sound at all like a foreign language to me; it sounded like broken English. To me ear, it sounded like he was saying, “yeah, but she not niqqa,” with only a hint of an accent (considering it’s not uncommon for some folks to mistake me for a non-Black, that part of it was not at all surprising).
As I’ve spent most of my life in NYC, as well as having an interest in Romance languages and the etymology of English words, I’m not really all that thrown by others speaking foreign languages in my presence.
To that end, I did consider at the time of the event that the guy might very well have been speaking in Mandarin, and that is why I held my tongue.
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I wrote “nei ge” because that is how it is written in PinYin (the official romanization system for Mandarin), but it sounds more like “nay gah”. People have different accents, so for some it could very well sound like “nee gah”.
I have seen instances like the scenario I described, so I had to explain it to black people AND to Chinese people. I have even heard of blacks saying they went to China and heard people constantly use the n-word around them. If you stop to think for a split second you would realize how such a silly idea that is — that millions of people in China would adopt using the n-word just when black people show up in China. I think that 99.9% of them don’t even know the word even if they attended English class in school.
Now, those who have been in the USA a few years might know the word already, but not realize that their behavior is being misinterpreted unless it is pointed out to them. If they know the word, they would not use it openly around blacks, unless it was the express purpose to be aggressive, then they would say the everything in English. (eg, get out of my f*cking store, you goddam n-gg*) then you know what context they are using the word.
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Ah the interracial relationships thread ,where one can express one’s views and experiences in regard to inter-phenotypic group reproductive activity ;as opposed to the mythical “race” concept and even the euphemistic “relationships” in place of “sex” which is reproductive activity.
Update for me (because while racism may be their primary concern its our main problem)
I realized the majority of the time if i was interested in a white female it would not be due to normal factors or criteria I would look for in a african american / black female such as appearance ,looks ,personality ,compatibility etc
but only skin albinism otherwise known as whiteness.
I came to this realization (after years ,decades of not comprehending) due to the constant and continuous aggression of the albinic/white population in general and albinic/white females in particular who will verbally and nonverbally (even more frustrating) seek me regardless of my appearance,socioeconomic status,whether they are with someone,there is trouble ,have serverly rejected them ,etc
I learned a few years ago – unless you mean life or death i.e. I will fight and kill rather than – they will not stop.
Another upadte – european white/albinics and asian white/albinics,
the reason is quite obvious that these two groups are the most similar phenotypically – in fact the only primary distinguishable difference between the two is the epicanthic fold
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold
other wise hair and skin pigmentation are identical (okay there’s more albinism among the european and along with their current chronological position and aggressiveness they are the most dominant.)
latitude :In geography, latitude (f) is a geographic coordinate that specifies the north-south position of a point on the Earth’s surface. Latitude is an angle (defined below) …
Another factor is the entirely involuntary beyond control nature of one’s inherited phenotype individually as well as collectively.
Also while I have seen it stated the black/african populations have the greatest genetic diversity ,I wonder the effects on the white/albinic population of continuous racist inbreeding – selecting for only the most albino traits i.e blond/white hair ,blue iris,pale skin?
Finally maybe I’ll get to read all the post worth reading here one day, maybe…
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“Asians did not invent the n-word”
__ __ __
Yes, I am well aware of the etymology of the N-word.
(I must say goodnight, as it’s past my bedtime.
Thanks to Jefe, King of Trouble and Kiwi for the interesting conversation.)
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@Kiwi
Are you saying you have only lived in white neighborhoods or majority Asian-American suburban upper middle class neighborhoods? You have never personally met Asians who grew up in non-white non-Asian neighborhoods and schools?
I have a few Asian friends that completed their entire pre-university education at 90% black 9% Latino schools. They even tend to insert some black vernacular English in their speech. My cousins who grew up in Mississippi lived in black neighborhoods, but attended white schools (during and after Jim Crow)
Every single neighborhood I ever lived in growing up were eventually majority black. But they were not all majority black when I was a child. My 4th grade class had 2 blacks (out of about 35 students), but my 5th grade class had about 18-19 blacks out of 35 and with a black teacher. High school was 30-35% black and I shared a locker with a black guy. I was a substitute teacher in a school that was about 49% black and 46% white. I should do a post on that experience. 😛
When I first moved out on my own, I moved into a neighborhood that was majority Latino.
The neighborhood in which we were the first non-white family to move in was about 75% black after my father divorced and lived there alone (initially with my brother). All the neighbors were black except for two elderly white women who had lived there for 30 years. I was staying there while I was working on his house and stuff after he died. I sold the house to a black family.
Hope you can learn more about Asian-Americans living and working in black and Latino communities firsthand instead of just reading accounts of them.
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@Peanut and Sondis
Guess what? Madonna was texting all the way through the first half of the movie, and when some she was asked to stop, guess how insensitive and disrespectful she got? She said “it’s business, enslaver.” She compared not being allowed to text on her phone, to slavery. Even as the gravity of the horrific nature of the slave trade, stood right before her face.
I wonder what the BM director (Mcqueen) thinks about bringing her along as a date, now. Apparently, when asked about it, the cast said they didn’t “fault her for it.” Lol.
This is not the first time she has disrespected the Black community. You should check out a video on youtube by Bell hooks, called “Madonna, cultural criticism.”
I thought that just brought home the point mentioned. About being about to measure your White partner by the way they would treat you and the subject of your community, with their response to a movie like “12 years a slave.” If I was Mcqueen, I would have had words with her about the “enslaver” comment, and I would have had them quickly.
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Once again, Peanut, you are another person who doesnt get what Im saying…if individuals in Shady’s family have emotions , exactly because of what you say,I support 100 percent that they dont date white people…
But give static to a family member because they are dating or marrying a white person? Well, they have to look in the mirror…who ever is feeling that way…is there going to be a baby born into that kind of reception? Is this kind of conflict going to dog them the rest of their lives? no, they will have to look in the mirror, and , white people did die in the movement , just associating racist whites with all whites is something that has to be looked in the mirror about
Peanut, what makes you think you represent black women? How they all could feel? My gosh, Im in country with maybe 40 million black women? Their ancesters probably went through harsher slavery than yours, they abolished slavery in Brazil in 1888, certainly factual, they went through slavery longer , and it was bigger in Brazil, yet any refeerance to slave masters raping their ancesters as a reason to feel uptight about interracial relationships is totaly…absolutly …completly absent…now I know, no chump on here is going to think they are superior to Brazilian black women in any way,
But , its much bigger than that… all the black women I ever dated, had no hang up about slave masters raping their ancesters in the past, it just wasnt part of the diologue…race issues they faced absolutly was part of the diologue..quite frankly, Peanut, some of these women were more aware of what their ancesters went through than you are, but, they didnt bring it in to their presnt lives and relationships as something to judge me by
No, you or sondis dont get to make arbitrary tests that interracial relationships have to pass, all you have to do is make up your own mind about whether you want to date a white person or not, and more power to you if you dont
stop judging the black women that werent hung up about it, werent suffering colorisation, or implying they are looking for upward mobility (Im a jazz drummer for crying out loud, not much upward mobility there)…you dont represent them…all you can say you have in common is you face racism because you are black, they dont think like you or have any obligation to think like you, or pass some bs tests that people who are uptight think up in their own minds
after close to 50 years of interracial dating, minus 5 with a white woman, putting up with physical attemted intimidations from all sides, that failed miserably, discriminations, humiliations, and lots and lots os stink stares, I dont have time for kumbyas and sympathy for people who will react just from seeing me with their racial or religious or national type, because they have emotions that have clouded their feelings…and listen to their rheteric they dont even know where it came from , the absolute miserable pseudo psycho analysis of interracial couples and the black people in them, and low leval generalisations these people who are hung up on interracial relationships make.
Its mind boggling that people just dont want to get what I am saying…so Ill say it once again, by all means, any poc who has hang ups, emotions, negative experiances with white people, if the slave and indentured servitude pasts weigh heavily on your conciousnes’s, if racism in society affects your feelings of possibly being intimite with white people, i am in total support of you not dating and being intimite and having sex with white people…unconditionaly..
but back way the hades off me and the wonderful women I have had the incredible pleasure to know, and be intimite with, and to have raised a family with…back way off…no one, and I mean absolutly no one on here has the right to judge them or us…expect nothing less than being seriously confronted about it if anyone thinks they are going to bring that elbow’s distance in real life..,
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For people out there in interracial relationships, isnt it just wonderful to see the kinds of thinking going on out here about it? And people actualy think its some kind of entering acceptance and better life…
look at the large amounts of stories of unacceptance right in the families, and they wonder why the people in the interracial relationships get defencive?
We are held up to standards other couples dont ever have worry about at all
We have to pass every Tom Dick and harry’s personal tests of racism and colorisation
we have to subject ourselves to the stink stares in public from people who dont know one darn thing about who we are
We have to accept hearing wherther our children are worthy
We have to accept getting put under scrutiny from an unproven science, psycho analysis, by pseudo amateur pshycho analysists, who dont even bother to have several consultations before making their petty conclusions
and people actualy think we get together to gain advantages in society…is this for real? We are going to put up with all this to gain position in society? and , even weirder, to drive black men and black women and Asian men and women apart?
The truth is, we have to be incredibly strong and independent just to make it, many buckle under the preasure, with these kind of family reactions we see so much on here, who could blame someone for buckling under that preasure
and we are against the grain…we are rebels in American society…we havent setteled for the majority lock step and division…we see past that and recognise there are other realities than the same old stale racial division that is daily American life
you all are out there, and our numbers are growing , and in all truth and reality, their shrink minds in all colors and creed will not prevail over us in the end…our will is going to long out last thier uptight interracial sex hangups, judgements, and discriminations…
We will prevail in the end
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just out of curiosity, Abagond, why did this last second post go into moderation? I tried hard not to use words that might flag it…it might be up when i post this but i was perplexed to see it go into moderation
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@ B.R.
Your post seemed all right just reading through it. Due to past trolls this blog is allergic to certain innocent-seeming words. I cannot make those words public since said trolls know how to avoid more direct means of blocking them. Some trolls try to comment here months, even years, after banning them.
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@Ebonymonroe,
I have long thought that Madonna’s behavior is an indicator that she has always wanted to have open, lesbian relationships with Black women…
I remember as an adolescent in the 90s, seeing her videos, especially the more sexual ones–typically featured attractive Black women that she would have dancing on her or giving her a lap dance.
just a thought.
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@ Jefe @ Kiwi
Fair enough. Thanks.
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Eh she wants to see the new thor movie no accounting for taste i reckon
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@phoebeprunelle
Interesting perspective. She already has. . . Naomi Campbell.
Madonna admitted that she wished she was Black early on in her life, because she associated Black with coolness. I’d have to post a Bell hooks essay on her, regarding the racial overtones in her work, many things Hooks points to which would take too long to cover in a post. For instance, the “Just like a prayer” video, where she identifies with the BM’s plight, and positions herself, as the angelic WW, falling into a choir of overweight mammy BW.
Madonna begged both 2pac and Dennis Rodman to get her pregnant; she was obsessed with having a child by a BM. Also, her s-x book was littered with Black bodies. But she made some very disturbing comments about BM and the Black community in a Spin magazine article not long after. Her treatment during, and in articles, after relationships with BM, compared to the WM she’s dated, have been quite telling. The way she treated Michael Jackson, Prince, and how she spoke on BM, even shortly after dating 2pac, despite the fact that he stood up for her against criticisms over him dating a WW. The way she spoke of BM as primitive, and misogynistic, despite being physically and sexually abused by Sean Penn, but still referring to him as “the love of her life.”
Bell Hooks also noted how submissive she was with Warren Beatty in her documentary, while referring to her minority friends as “emotional cr!pples she collects.” She was also quite disrepectful towards Janet Jackson, when Janet defended her brother against Madonna.
Madonna’s appropriation and fascination with Black culture/community, all the while continuing to display a sense of superiority in visually expressions, her words, and in deed, make for a very interesting study in White supremacy. Especially as it pertains to WW, which often makes for a more subtle form of it: The Black body for sexual pleasure, appropriating the BW, fascination with the BM, and a fascination with Black culture, even buying poor Black children, all the while, seeing yourself as superior, no matter how much you position yourself as a participant in said culture.
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@Pay it forward
I thought about it and I think I know what they were saying — Bu(4) shi(4) nei(4) ge (the number is the tone) –> 不是那個 (NO, not that one). Or maybe they said Bu(4) shi(4) le, nei(4) ge –> 不是了,那個 (No, not that one, THAT ONE). Obviously they would have to look straight at you to make that statement. It might sound to you like BOO SHI NAY GAH. (or BOO SHI LAH, NAY GAH.)
Believe me, I have heard dozens of accounts of blacks complaining of Chinese speakers using the n-word around them. Nothing is further from the truth.
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@ jefe, I believe you. Some years ago, I visited Guangdong Province on a touristy departure from work and heard this word (I think I did at least, that was what it sounded like).
The word was used in a directionless, vague kind of way, in pauses in between sentences, when people were walking, talking, shopping — anything. It wasn’t like anyone was pointing at anything.
More recently I was watching Russell Peters (a Canadian comedian), and in one of his routines he recounts “the black woman in a Chinese restaurant” story (or urban legend), some folks have heard before.
As Russell Peters himself says it’s just a “filler” word, something like people, like “you know”, “actually”, and so forth:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfzorq4RH20)
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^^ Come to think of it, was it in the Northeast of the country? It might’ve been. I don’t remember, but it rings a bell.
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just listen to your woman, v8, “you dont need more headaches on top of headaches”…now those are words of wisdom
nobody makes rules of what interracial couples have to do to pass somebodies ridiculous test…that is absurd
this blog is not thedefinitive black American voice, its written by a black american, it isnt the black American voice, Abagond sais himself, he doesnt have a hive black mind…there are what / 50 posters at any given time? that is generous…anyone who thinks they are getting the definitive black American voice on here is just making a mistake…half the people come from somewhere else…no problem with that…but, it just isnt the definitive black American final word on interracial dating or black culture or american foreign policy…its seperate individuals , Sondis doesnt speak for black eople, Sondis speaks for Sondis, most of us dont even know what we look like, or do in this world…we are cyber blips giving opinions…you just cant take that too seriously…I sure dont take the opinions i see here on interracial sex seriously…i feel i have to come in to just steer the general tone away from the bs..or people will really start beleiving its true…
what is really funny about this anti interracial sex rant…it isnt about being anti white racist anymore…that is what happened in the 60’s when hard core activists who had been beaten and put in jail, were banned from activist meetings just for having white mates…they were anti white racist, yet punished for having white mates
and you saw that played out beautifully rifght here on several threads
this isnt about anti white racism
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B.R.
Still going on with your dubious nonsense about the 60s? Your bizzare angle is too funny and apparently now includes obsessing about “Commies” in Brazil. Anyway…, this blog has never claimed to represent the all encompassing black experience nor is this post an anti-interracial sex rant. You’re just creating silly strawmen to knock down because your points on this issue , other than continually patting yourself on the back for being in an interracial relationship (how brave of you!), have long disssolved into repetitive incoherent diatribes.
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^^^
* Madonna’s appropriation and fascination with Black culture/community, all the while, continuing to display a sense of superiority, in visual expressions, her words, and in deed, make for an interesting study in White supremacy.
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@B.R.
“nobody makes rules of what interracial couples have to do to pass somebodies ridiculous test…that is absurd”—I agree with this and would like to add that this should apply to all couples. There is no rules or test that should have to be passed to be considered legit. I have met black couples who were defined as not black enough because they did not fit xyz. It is what it is and perhaps you should look at it like that.
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Ebonymonroe,
About Madonna, two words: Grace Jones. She…appropriated…Grace’s style and made is safe for mainstream America.
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Ks , what on this gods earth do you know about Brazil to give you the gaul to make that statement about me talking of commies in Brazil?
I guess you have no ideas what really happened in the sixties in the states either…all you do is talk with no referances , something I have blatenty given ,like just your all mighty word is it
Repeat myself ? Oh man, this subject is nothing but repeated cliches, and tired rhetoric, thread after thread, going over the same bs
Pat myself on the back? With these hostilities rolling against interracial relationships? You are truly first class naive..I think you mísread the pat on the back, it was a threat to anyone who comes within elbow distance with this crud
Absolutly, Sharina, on all levals, the anti white racists, insulted on here, werent even in relationships with white people, including yourself…that is what I meant, too…absurd
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@ sondis,
Notice that B.R.’s posts are proving to be great examples of your long running theory? All the self congratulatory, I’m so brave!, so unique! such a rebel! the future of America (via Brazil i suppose)! simply because he’s in an interracial relationship. He’s doing all us ungrateful black nationalist influenced wretches a favor. I doubt he’d be throwing his shoulder out of his socket patting his back if he was in an intra-racial relationship with a WW.
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Ks, you truly are a provincial bumkin sitting on a log
Its really just my way of saying kiss my behind, who ever has anti interracial sex sentiments
I dont need to pat myself on the back , I need to back punks off..just look at the crap on here
Hey , what about your Brazil knowledge? You dont know sqat, and go running to Sondis, who doesnt know sqat about Brazil either?
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If you are going to own flawed black nationalist rhetoric, , which I have clarified , there is much black nationalist concepts that are good too , if you dont get that, that is your hangup, rhetoric that was side by side with admirations for Mão and. Marxism, then that is wretched when it comes to anti interracial sex drek
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@bulanik,
Thanks for finding that Youtube clip. I have heard so many stories of blacks in stores and restaurants hearing that Mandarin filler word that I thought it had already become an urban legend that Black Americans thought Mandarin speakers are always using the N-word around them.
Well, I hope by this point every reader on this blog knows by now. “Nei ge” (pronounced like NAY – GAH) is simply the most common article or pronoun in Mandarin meaning “That” or “The”, like the generic pronoun that replaces everything that you don’t have a name for. It is almost to impossible to speak 2-3 sentences without using it.
Russell Peters is funny.
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B.R.
Yeah, you would be my first stop for info on the 60s, or black nationalist rhetoric or tap dancing or jazz, or Mao, or commies in Brazil or any of the other tangents you go off on. Sure you would. Anyway, dude stop woofing. Neither your bark nor bite carries much weight. You aren’t going to do anything to anybody who comes within “elbow distance” (whatever that means) of you who expresses a negative opinion of interracial relationships. What are you going to do? Lecture some dudes in Brazil about how they’re being influenced by US black nationalist rhetoric from the 60s though on second thought, the crazy old man approach might work.
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Ks , like I have always said, the black American political trajectory is not my specialty…amazing people know less than me , but, they use the rhetoric cronicly
American Black nationalists bang their heads on the wall if they run the anti Interracial sex drek in Brazil, ive heard them lament it
See, people have tried to physicly intimidate me about interracial relationships , this isnt a bluff, its reality for me..and I know how to handle it..grandpops knows
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Also, Ks, I brought in various factual links about the history and realities based on sixties politics on anti interracial relationships from the black nationalist dialogue and rhetoric ,and, a profound in depth book on the history of interracial love in America , and you said it didnt matter, because of that, I stopped the links…I could have gone on for ever
It seems people dont know or care about history or origins , they would rather just just hold their cliches and play one upmanship between the sexes
Do you really think thread after thread after thread, going no where, raking anti white racists against the coals is healthy ?
Especialy for black love? Which I am a huge supporter of
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@ks
Yes Grace Jones. . . AND VANITY 6.
Side note: this B.R. and Ks debate is funny.
@Jefe
Thanks for the that Jefe, that’s good to know.
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Did someone mention (the incomparable) Ms Grace Jones?
Yes, Madonna and her machine heavily borrowed from Grace’s artistry and inventiveness, sanitising it for the cultural mainstream, and making a mint.
Lady Gaga does it too. Some of her costumes/headgear are just like the ones Grace used to wear.
What Grace has to say about it (video 1.13 minutes long)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzX9DKNlYDg)
Madonna and Naomi? Not unlikely and why not? They may, at least, have attended the same sex-parties, if not spending time having same-sex sex.
And, of course, there’s the (in)famous image of Madonna lying back and Naomi Campbell holding Madonna’s legs apart, etc:
(http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kozaczek.pl/img_users/1244561709.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kozaczek.pl/fotki_gwiazd.php?idfot%3D40528%26u%3Dmadonna%2B%2B%2Bnaomi%2Bcampbell&h=578&w=900&sz=104&tbnid=tNA2NeJbrOHNXM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=140&zoom=1&usg=__NGX3qDPknQZ23uiQXIBUKHdp0oQ=&docid=s8SJjO1oX6mJiM&sa=X&ei=FvN7UtesOojG7AbL2oDADw&ved=0CDAQ9QEwAQ)
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B.R.
Okay gramps, I’m sure you can handle yourself. Anyway, if I can make it down there for the World Cup next year, though it might be too crazy to visit, I expect you to be a good host and point me in the right direction.
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Reading about Madonna being Twelve Years A Slave director Steve Mcqueen’s date, and her disrespectful behavior, That is just shameful. I wonder what he thinks about her now? Did he regret choosing her? SMH, she showed her disrespect of his art by acting like a donkey. I am not surprised, Michael Jackson said in his memoirs how disrespectful and rude she was. I have always thought of her as a classless wonder. Yet, she adopted an African child, which in my opinion means nothing, she is the epitome of white priviledge. I saw some mention of Grace Jones, Grace Jones, was doing her thing long before Madonna, and paved the way for folks like Lady Gaga. But, she has always had a pass in the black entertainment world. I have never thought she earned that right. She is a graceless cow.
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@peanut
“with that being said, after seeing the movie, i did find myself (emotionally) second-guessing some of the attraction i had felt to white men. yes, i would feel uncomfortable having sex with a white man after seeing that movie”
That is the whole point of the movie. The Liberal left have succeeded.
Movies like Roots and this 12 Years a Slave are just propoganda. Roots portraying the lie of white men kidnapping helpless black africans, 12 years a slave pushing violence to the limit by white men against slaves smh
Wake up people! You are being duped by the left but you are so blind with racism and colorism that you cannot see it…
Btw in case you didn’t know this…..They’re just Movies (not real)
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“ks:
simply because he’s in an interracial relationship. He’s doing all us ungrateful black nationalist influenced wretches a favor. I doubt he’d be throwing his shoulder out of his socket patting his back if he was in an intra-racial relationship with a WW.”
This is typical and expected. The majority of black women and white men on this blog, that attack black men and women, for rejecting white people in favor of black people in relationships, have an agenda, being they are in interracial relationships with white,Hispanic or other none-black persons.
Some won’t reveal that they’re dating or in relationships with a white person, for the sole purpose of it being used against them in terms of a hidden agenda.
I don’t know why my name was brought up, regarding Brazil’s history of slavery or discrimination, being i never proclaimed to know about it, nor have i spoke on it. I only speak on America’s history of slavery and discrimination.
I have stated several times, my purpose for being on this forum. I am not here to talk to or with white people, i believe it to be an utter waste of time, that could be used to further educate and warn black people about white supremacy.
This also includes, warning black people about other black people that side with the enemy to promote white supremacy and they are on this very blog, i have made it a point to challenge and expose these traders.
Promoting white on black love, over black on black love, promoting none-black on black lover, over black on black love.
Claiming to be, “pro-black” or “black and proud” or “culturally aware”, yet slamming and attacking black people that promote black on black love, all the while, not even having a black partner but is black and proud and wear African garments, hair natural and have a white husband/wife or date white people.
This is pure hypocrisy at its best, you can’t claim to fight white supremacy and be in bed with a person who not only benefits from white supremacy but supports it. You instantly forfeit your claim to being for the, “black struggle” when you decide to date/marry/have sex and have children with a white person. No, you don’t get to “act” black and proud in front of black people on a blog, then offline in your real life, submit to white supremacy by fraternizing with people that support the very system that oppresses you and other black people.
I say this to these double agents for the white man:
You’re fake, a Phony, a shame.
You’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing, i tell you.
You’re too scared to “offend” other black people! You’re more concerned with your friend count, than challenging the white supremacist power structure that exists on this very blog!
I observe how some black people, interact on this blog and other blogs, there is no serious challenge to white supremacy!
The only time i see any real or serious challenge of white supremacy, if its coming from a white person, that YOU aren’t dating!!! or one of these racist trolls that proclaim that they don’t find black women, attractive.
But let a white man come on this blog to worship, black women. “he’s one of the good white people” hmm..so i guess all a white person has to do is express interest in a black person, sexually or romantically and their not racist, there isn’t a hidden agenda, they are not using you just for sexual purposes to see what its like to be with a black person or have some sick fetish for black people’s flesh.
That’s right, i said it….
I notice that all the black women on this blog, that are so for interracial relationships, between white men have nothing bad to say about white men, when it comes to white men, that date black women or looking at them as potential romantic partners!
It seems that, when black women, date white men or get into relationships with them, all of a sudden in a flash of light, these white men are not racist to them, anymore.
These white men are not WHITE anymore, you as a black woman, are not BLACK, anymore. Black women, “don’t see color anymore” when they date white men. white people are not racist ANYMORE.
Now, these black women believe that, “not all white people are racist” WHY NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN? Oh, i get it, so when you sleep with a white man, all the racism, just skeet’s out of him???
This is a pure, slave mentality that still exists in black people and it needs to be challenged and exposed.
When a white man, leaves a black woman for reasons that are clearly obvious but are dismissed by the black women, simply because she is in denial about, being seen as a “BLACK” woman and not only a woman in the eyes of this white man, black women never, ever come to the conclusion that it just could be, it just might be, the fact that this white man, didn’t want them for anything other than a sexual exploit, not for any long term relationship, that would lead to marriage or black children with a black woman.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, black women feel rejected, when white men don’t reciprocate their advances as they are victims of white supremacy, just like the black man, so the black woman gets defensive and angry that the white man, doesn’t treat her like a white woman.
The black women is angry and upset, that the black man, can’t give her the things the white man,gives his white woman, so they lashes out at the black man by putting the black man down, constantly comparing black men to the white man, sub-consciously and consciously.
She wants what the white woman has, she wants her hair, her light eyes, her fair skin and the white woman’s life style.
This is why black women, lash out at me on this blog, because they hate it when this truth is exposed and not to mention, a black man is exposing this truth.
This anger stems from this…
Some Black women hate black men, because some black men are not in a position to treat them and take care of them in the way, white men treat and take care of their white women, its envy.
Black men are kept in positions, we’re not able to care of our black women and children. Black men are targeted for the criminal justice system, and discriminated in the job market,so they are not able to take care of our women.
Black women are favored in corporate America, over black men for jobs, this is why you seem more black women, working than black men as they are not the target of the criminal justice system. However, black men are.
Employers get tax breaks and incentives to hire, minority single mothers with children, so they hire black women over black men.
I’ve talked about this before, regarding the help that black women get, in addition to the none-prosecution that black women don’t experience on the level that black men, experience. This allows for black women to be hired by employers, pursue their careers, get paid higher salaries than black men, that work in lower paying jobs, that they can only attain, because white men don’t want them to be able to afford to take care of their family, their place is in a prison.
A poor black woman with no education with children, has a higher percentage of avoiding getting a criminal record , than a poor black male with no education with children, because there all more social programs for black women than black men, like section 8 for instance.
So these poor, young black women, stay out of the criminal justice system for the most part and if they really want to get out of their situation, they can if they decide to pursue education, being they don’t have a criminal record.
They are home most of the time with their children in public housing, so they have time to think about their life and get their mind right and make decisions to make a better life for themselves and their children, some do and go on to get an education, get a job, then a career.
White men, understand this, so they take advantage of our black women by seizing the opportunity to exploit, black women’s weakness for wanting to be taken care of, financially, socially and mentally.
This is horrendous in itself to use such methods, just to sexually exploit black women but white men take things a step further by only using this opportunity to have access to black women’s bodies, not to give them a happy life or provide them with the same life style, they do their white women.
This is the pure, definition of white supremacy at work, this is why i refuse to submit to it by fraternizing with the white man and his women.
I can care less if not one person likes or agrees with me on this blog, my purpose is not to make friends or worry about hurting a black person or white persons feelings. Its to warn other black folks about white supremacy, Racism and white privilege and how to navigate these social constructs of the white man.
I am also here to warn my black people about other black people that mean to bring them harm, in the form of trying to convince black people to submit to white supremacy, via having sex with white people. as if that has done any bit of good, being white people have been having with black people, ever since we was captured and brought here.
Even after black and white people were allowed to be together legally, things never changed as far as black people’s social position at the bottom as second class citizens.
So any black person, trying to keep black people passive by trying to preach this, cumbaya anti-racist philosophy in the form of telling black people ( to have sex with white people ) will makes race relationships any better in America is supporting white supremacy. Black people have gained nothing by sleeping with and having children with white people.
The house Negros and Negresses that come on black blogs, such as this one and masquerade as black nationalists but in their true form, they have insidious and sinister agendas.
These types of Negros are harder to detect as its easy for them to blend in with black people that are truly focused on speaking and revealing the truth, even if it means, to expose their own black people as traders and white sympathizers, that live to serve the white man as they worship white people, consciously and sub-consciously.
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@Bulanik: Grace paved the way for Gaga, even though I like her, She is not very original. I have been a slave to Grace’s rhythm from back in the day.
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@ October
It would do you some good to get an education. You do realize that 12 years a slave is based on someone’s life story right?
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I heard lady gaga stole her style from her best friend that died.
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All,
I mentioned Grace Jones because I live in NYC and remember her burning down leagandary clubs like the Paradise Garage with her performances and being a true trailblazer while Madonna was chasing after DJ Jellybean Benitez and begging to be put on. Don’t think for a second that Madonna didn’t “take notes”. Since we’re talking about IRs here, her relationship with Dolph Lundgren was legendary as well. . They were bannas. Classic over the top passsion – either fu…ing or fighting.
Overall, Grace Jones, like say Stephanie Mills, is criminallu underrated as an artist.
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@Sharina
Based is the key word there….That means events have been added or changed for dramatic purposes…..
@Sondis
I belive you sir should be regulated to the ‘Broken Record Department’ You have perfected the mindset of this…..https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/blame-whitey/
Black women and men have every right to participate in IR if they choose to do so….I myself(Evil GOP supporting White man) find black women attractive.
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rofl, still at it I see, everything is the lefts fault we get it.
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@ks: I agree.
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ok wtf I just looked up grace jones and wow, I saw a vid of her hoola hooping while singing lol she is way better than lady gaga.
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@ B.R.
The situation on this blog involving me was actually bitter sweet. It broke my naive train of thought, but it also allowed me to fully take in TrojanPam’s words (even if you had some discourse with her). Her response to me was long but I will take out just a few things as it really enlightened me on how I view this situation and my future interaction with black males (online) and interracial subject matter. Her quote below:
Of course there are things we disagree on, but there is so many wise words in what she had to say and this personal message to me really was uplifting. Because of her is the reason I look at is with a smile on my face and a shrug of my shoulders. What is more important? Your happiness and the happiness of your family or whether some people are offended by your relationship choices? Long as it is for the right reasons right? 🙂
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@Ks
Did you ever go to Studio 54?
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@mstoogood4yall: Grace is the truth, even today.
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@B.R.
I have a comment in moderation to you. It is long.
side note: Baaahh typos. 😦
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I would never reccomend a black woman to just trust a white man…I read about some of the reasons black women were not open to white men…they were very concerned about past images of being too fast…black women were sensitive to how they were portrayed..i totaly respect this…a white man..and any man, should show a fundimental respect of exactly who you are…
I also say, people having sex together , how they end up getting there, when they end up getting there, why they end up getting there , is so complex and at the mercey of so many factors , it just cant be generalised
personal examples everyone on here have given, of people they know who have suffered at the hands of interracial relationships , Im sure are true and valid…but, just as many examples of sucessful respectful lasting relationships can be cited. What do statistics mean? If they say 70 percent marraidges fail in one catagory, are the thirty percent not important?
I agree totaly too , racist white supremacy creates unfair unbalanced situations for black Americans and POC, for men and women…I wont even try to say who is it worse for, if there is any differance , its too small to really debate…and, I would say if any white person couldnt acknowledge that with a potential interracial relationship, it will be like living with fox news…might be a sign to watch out for
Ks, I have no real battle with you, here is the best top advice I can give, since I just did some recent touring:
in June, when the Copa happens, its winter, so the best places to look for beach are the North East.
Recife is a monster city, heavy culture rolling, Boa Viagem is the city beach area…Fator Palace..ave Navigantes Boa Viagem…really good prices if that matters..urban..if you want tropical beach Porto da Galinhas
Salvador Bahia, commentor Peanut was just there…a hotel in the city I discovered for the first time in Ondina, the Othon Barra, I loved it, great room ambiance, and out near the airport is the Catussaba resort hotel…there are plenty of other options
Rio is unbeleivable and if you like beach, the Barra is spectacular, I got bumped from a hotel recently , when I was doing a recording session out there, because Rock In Rio was crowding everything up…I had to go to the Windsor Barra…I found out its a place they were putting up TV Globo Actors and actresses when they were in town , so I saw some people whose work I love
Praia Linda is a hotel down the street on Sernabetiba..or now Lucio Costa I think…its a cheaper price, nice place…Hotel Argentina is a great price , acsessable to the Lapa area, where lots of music rolls, near Flamengo, but, I only stay there when I work in the Lapa
where i live is too cold in the winter..but that is the real deal right there for those who want to take notes
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dont hurt me , Sharina
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@Ebonymonroe,
Though I know a lot about it, I was a tad too young and my pockets were too lean to hang at Studio 54. : )
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@ Eboneymonroe& phoebeprunelleo: I forgot about Madonna and Naomi, Yeah, that was a long time ago. Now that you brought it up, I sure do remember that.
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@ B.R.
Oh no it is not like that. I just wanted to share some things that I learned from this thread and some awesome advice I received from TrojanPam. Once it goes through I will add more. Nothing bad was said so not sure why it went to moderation to begin with.
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BEWARE: Asplund is trying to impersonate other commenters, like mstoogood4yall.
If you see a comment in your name that you did not write, please tell everyone on the thread immediately.
Thank you.
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@ October
Now I know you are not going to start playing games here. Let us now refer to what you said.
“They’re just Movies (not real)” Do we have to go over the definition of not real or are you going to concede that you were mistaken?
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As a side not to you October. They took out some of the actual brutality from my understanding, so it benefits your fragile feelings.
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@ Abagond
Please tell me you are joking.
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….Is he really posing as other posters..? WoW, um ok. Word to the wise, its a public forum and imbalanced people can see what you write. I’d be more disturbed than sad if this turns out to be real.
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@ks
You’ve seen those men in the subway who talk loudly to themselves? You know they are not going to try to pee or throw up on you, but you still try to move to the other subway car at the next stop. Only thing, sometimes they follow you into the next car and continue. It’s days like those that you just want to get home.
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@ Sharina
No joke.
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wtf, trying to impersonate me ooh that. rofl this is the second time someone has tried to impersonate me online wtf I guess I attract the crazies. He must still be hurt from what I said about him in comment policy. smh. stalker much, he needs to sit down somewhere and go take his meds.
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Pay it Foward,
(I lived more than a decade in Asia. Home of the the weirdest English phrases to ever be around. Now when I was in Japan some of the older teachers I work with would say what I thought of as Coon to me. Which where I come from is highly offensive. Yet, in Japan it is like saying young man so King-of-Trouble Kun. Still, even when using something that might be high offensive a foreign person may not have the right content to understand. Like Black Music, or the Yamaba experience. I personally like Yamabas they are so interesting and they put up with a lot of brown smelly stuff for their taste in fashion. Lots of African Americans had problem with them. I did not feel that Yamabas (They were so friendly and very cool to talk with.) were at the same level as the Dutch Black Peter. I would say that anytime you have intercultural along with interracial problems it becomes a much more difficult knot to untangle.
I have had to talk to a lot of hurt Japanese people who thought they understood black culture. Many years back a student of mine went to NY as a student. He got involved in music spinning world went under the moniker DJ Pooh. (Why Japanese people have a fetish for cute things baffle me to this day.) As you can imagine it didn’t go down so well. I think when you think of how high level his English was to get into a college and not have to take ESL classes there. I would think that you might understand that language is tickles at best. English loves deviations.
It would be hard for Asian Americans to make a band and call themselves Yellow Monkeys, but in Japan there is such a band because the words don’t have that sting. One Japanese woman blogged about her first big mistake time. In Japan they have no problem comparing babies to monkeys. Yet, she married a black guy and moved to America and said to his friends, oh your baby is as cute as monkey, horrifying silence followed. I think it may be unfair to expect other countries to understand the effects of racism in another country. I lived in Korean section of Japan, and there is a lot of anger there rightly so, but it doesn’t mean I understand it. I am fish out of water when it comes to Japanese slurs for Koreans and Chinese and vice versa. Japanese’s slurs for me made me laugh I couldn’t take them serious. Mainly because I have experience much more aggressive ones in my home country that hit targets better. )
I think when you have interracial marriages you are bound to find these strange juxtaposed things quicker. You are more tempted to ask why doesn’t this person who is supposed to be my completion understand that those words, ideas, or actions hurt me.
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What an interesting & thought provoking comment, King of Trouble! Thank you for your reply. 🙂
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abagond”
“BEWARE: Asplund is trying to impersonate other commenters”
lmao @ beware.
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You know Sondis,
a lot of things you say in your message has Truth and is on target but then you F’ck up the message with sentences like this:
is this your attempt of being inspirational? — for Real !!!
and WHO are you talking about?
because I haven’t read any comments by any black woman (who regularly comments on this blog) that is Promoting “white on black love” over “black on black love”
point to EXPLICIT past comments that highlights this
I mean comments that out-and-out said “f’ck black men, white men are the best” — because then I would say, yeah “Sondis has a point and he called it like it is” —
I have Yet to see any comments that sounds like or resembles anything you say where a black woman is supporting, promoting or insinuating that “black men suck and white men are better”
so please drop names so that everyone can catch up with you and be on the same page — finding and posting past comments is just one click away
and the only black Nationalist here on this blog is you, Tyrone and TrojanPam, but the difference is:
Tyrone has never belittled black women on this blog and
TrojanPam INSPIRES black women — whereas, all you’ve done is insult, put down, or offend black women on this blog — tactics that don’t inspire.
Trojan Pam is not trying to Offend black women, she’s trying to UPLIFT black women using POSITIVE messages and feedback
your absolutely correct when you say it’s not about “making friends” or having people like you — but how do you expect to try to deliver a “message” when you keep offending your target audience.
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why would any self-respecting black woman want to internalize your message, Sondis, when you are offending them with your delivery because
you continue to project words, hang-ups, and Agendas (false fictional agendas) onto them, that they don’t have and doesn’t exist.
False fictional Agendas because these so called “agendas” are coming from “your head — your mind” — not theirs – you can’t purposely misconstrue peoples words and make their round words fit into your square hole interpretation
Do black women need to start their sentences off with
“As-salam alaykum — F’ck white people, they smell like wet dogs”
in order for you to be civil and not talk to them like sh’t
_______
Overall, Your message has GOOD INTENTIONS —
Intentions that gets Lost in translation because you are Alienating black women who read this blog (your target audience) by projecting your conspiracy theories onto them — you are not listening to them, Sondis – you are not hearing their words
there is no choir to preach to on this blog because you and most everyone here is on the same page when it comes to black people in America getting their sh’t together in order to become a stronger financial, social, and political unit.
if you don’t care about what anyone else thinks or care if/how your message impacts them — then why are you here, delivering your message?
are you pushing your message for your own self-gratification? just to pass the time and have it out in cyberspace
because how do you plan for your message to bring about positive effective change in black women’s psyches — your supposed target audience — if you keep pushing your target audience away because you are offending them
(and I am truly asking you this out of real curiosity, I am not trying to pick a fight with you)
you catch more bees with honey than lemons and lime
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and Abagond, what is up with your blog and these racist Stalkers
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Sharina, yes, I have had differances with TrojanPam, but, I did also say she made other good points..I also have said I respect Sondis having his defences , but , when both of them imply threre is something suspect about black people with white people, and psycho analyse them , and generalise about them , that is where I will defend wonderful people I know who dont fit these steryotypes , and they are people worth defending..
Im really not attacking them, Im attacking their comments , and the agendas that do steryotype and generalise…youd think we all learned from “you are either with us or against us”..another political agenda , coming from the agenda of people I distrust much more than Sondis or TrojanPam
yes, those are good points by TrojanPam
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@My Black people
Let me ask you a question that came to me the other day. Why is it when White people, (men and women), have bad relationships with each other, the conclusion is, “my ex was of bad character,” or, “I’ve had bad luck with relationships thus far,” but, with the Black community, when Black men or women have had bad experiences in relationships with one another, the popular conclusion usually drawn is, “Black women are bad” or “Black men are no good?” This common lack of critical thinking when applied to ourselves has increasingly perplexed me. Is it that, when searching for answers after bad relationships, because of pervasive propaganda concerning Black men and women, we absorb this ideology, and, ultimately, find closure in this being the answer to our problems?
I find the lack of critical thinking to be excessively air headed, but I don’t like to think of many of my people as innately air headed.
Do Asian women do this concerning Asian men, or is this something that is completely unique to the Black community?
@Ks
I’d love to pick your brain about Studio 54 in the open thread if you ever have the time; as someone who was around that scene during its run. I was fascinated with it in my teens.
@Interracial dating between Black women and White men
I do understand the complexity of hypothetical non-platonic relationships between White men and Black women, but I do believe the idea that Black women must put all their eggs in one basket because they won’t be treated a certain way by White men, over their race, is somewhat redundant at this point.
*There are many, many, many, many, many, many, Black men, who will not treat a woman the way he would a non Black woman, simply because she’s a Black woman.
*And even if it’s okay to be Black, you better be the right shade.
*There are many, many, many Black men, who hate Black women with even more of a passion than many White men, simply because they’re Black and female. And this fact is not only echoed throughout the experiences of many a sista in real life, but across the internet, from the voices of Black men, and through various parts of our culture, (our music, etc). When #Blackgirlsrock was trending on twitter, #Whitegirlsrock was started as a backlash, to praise White women, as they felt the (one night a year) event was racist towards, degrading towards, and worked to devalue White women. Guess who participated? White women and Black men. But see if anyone had a problem with #stopblackgirls2013; it reached the highest trending spot of all the twitter topics mocking races of women. And guess who participated the most? I’m sorry to say it, but it was Black men.
The sweet perception can be that the demagoguery of Black men towards Black women on youtube is rare, but you can type in “Black girls” or “Black women” on twitter at any given moment and find countless tweets of Black men degrading Blacks girls and women, juxtaposed with high praises for non Black women.
*I’ve heard Black men say they would only sleep with a Black woman and not commit to because of x, y, z. (I’ve heard the reason being because of Black women’s hair texture.)
The times have changed. I’m all for Black love, but many Black men do marry out, which I have no problems with when all is said and done, because I’m “pro happiness.” Even if it’s not for the right reasons, that’s that person’s life, not mine. And marriages between Black women and White and Asian men apparently are the fastest growing interracial marriage rates.
I just came across an article yesterday, which examined the statistics from “okcupid,” and the stats showed that Middle Eastern and White men, actually responded to Black women at a much higher rate than Black men, (these stats were compiled from each demographic in the hundreds of thousands, to the millions), while Black men reserved their responses moreso for non Black women.
As I said, I’m all for Black love, but times are changing. It would be crazy to demand that sistas not take the chance at love with both non Black men, as well as Black men. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m in the UK, and 50% of Black men marry non Black women, here. Imagine if sistas in the UK, decided to be closed off from interracial marriage, the way many African American women have done for so long. No! Over 1/3 of Black women marry out over here, cause the UK is rainy, dry humoured, and cynical, and we don’t play that.
“Pro happiness!”
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@Sondis
“This is typical and expected. The majority of black women and white men on this blog, that attack black men and women, for rejecting white people in favor of black people in relationships, have an agenda, being they are in interracial relationships with white,Hispanic or other none-black persons.
Some won’t reveal that they’re dating or in relationships with a white person, for the sole purpose of it being used against them in terms of a hidden agenda”
Sondis, what about the black men on here who may not be revealing the race of their partner either? That’s very likely considering the stats (15.7% bm-ww marriage rate.). Your zealotry as a black nationalist would be more believable if you also included the much higher black men marriages to nonblack women (20% of married black men marry nonblack women) and those who are living with nonblack women and those who are in pursuit of only nonblack women in your diatribes. Look at the stats that Abagond posted above. The rate of black men married to white women alone is more than double that of black women with white men. Yet you aim mostly all of your poison darts at black women. That doesn’t sound like black nationalism because it takes men and women to build a black nation. You constantly show that you are only concerned about the women getting away.
That makes you sound like a phony, hypocritical black nationalist with an ax to grind. Did your black girlfriend or wife leave you for a white man? Or are you so scared that a lot of those same white men who you say don’t really want a black woman will marry a black woman or make a black woman an offer that she can’t refuse?
You don’t seem to realize that you’re contradicting yourself. Why are you so obviously afraid of something that you keep telling black women is not going to happen?
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sondis said:
“Its to warn other black folks about white supremacy, Racism and white privilege and how to navigate these social constructs of the white man.”
honestly, you sound somewhat ‘excluded’ even by black women (i’m not going to say outperformed, like but there is some type of anxiety there, sublingua, that i can detect), eg:
“A poor black woman with no education with children, has a higher percentage of avoiding getting a criminal record , than a poor black male with no education with children, because there all more social programs for black women than black men, like section 8 for instance. ”
we have all listened to your arguments regarding whites’ privelege and how that is passed down through the ‘family’ and also extended through the corporate entity specifically via financing and so forth for home loans, etc.
HOW BOUT BUYING SOMETHING YOU CAN AFFORD AND NOT FEED CORPORATE ENTITY ITS SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF INTEREST PAYMENTS?
now i could understand if you were saying something like “this is another way the {mostly} white power system is being divisive to the black community, ie not helping single black males with programs like section 8” although this is spurious because most major metropolitan cities have these things called homeless shelters and most of them provide an entry point to housing through drug/alcohol recovery treatment, to adress the root cause, and then helping with employment (to the degree it’s possible in today’s economy), and then typically placing people in city/county backed housing programs, such as here in philly.
ALSO, the DUDE is supposed to be able to get out to work more easily than a woman, who via your example, would be staying home with the children or using up (oh my!) precious societal resources like (subsidized) child care that could be spent on programs more to your liking… wow where did i hear that before?
hmm..
blah blah, crime stats, ok, so far par for the course (oops), ok
also that tax credit form you sign before getting hired also asks about if you’ve been released from prison or are a convicted felon, the employer gets tax credits for hiring this clas of person as well… although obviously a lot less people are going to take that risk
“White men, understand this, so they take advantage of our black women by seizing the opportunity to exploit, black women’s weakness for wanting to be taken care of, financially, socially and mentally.”
why is this trait relegated to black women? my ex-wife was white, and made $75000 a year and i still felt like an atm machine.
it is unfortunate, but your rhetoric inspires me more to challenge not only your perception of the average white person but the {mostly} white power structure here in the good old us of a, because mostly, it appals me to be lumped in with whatever symbols of power you infer i reckon the people you see on tv, such as the esteemd rick santorum, rudy giuliani, john boehner, etc, people who are making the situation as difficult for ‘regular joe’ white people as black people, and making us fear, hate and distrust each other even more.
as you damn well know i got a felony and i get out there and work, and noone give a ish about whether i’m white or not, i got work, it needs to get done, if i don’t do it the next person will.
Linda said:
“…F’ck white people, they smell like wet dogs”
hey that’s only after we get out of the shower!
HAVE A NICE DAY! 🙂
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I agree
Black love is great,wonderful,amazing,strong..if you can get it?
but the fact is so is other ‘love’,certain bw feel that a white man would not understand the pain of the past,or be able to relate to her-a lot of black men do understand this and still the union or chemistry is not always there,just because a black man understands your pain or your plight does not mean he is the better man nor does it mean a more harmonious union…sometimes sharing the color of the skin is often the only similarity you have with that person.
Funnily enough,black men who date out and more and more black men are,don’t carry this emotional ‘baggage’ over when they date out,maybe thats because women are more emotional and men are more rational-the strange thing is it appears white women are more mentally stronger in certain respects in regards to dating out,not only is she willing to date a black man despite what her family may think(and many come from racist family or those who hold blacks at a disadvantaged view)she sticks with him even at the result of having mixed children and is quite happy to go it on her own,while many black women are fearful of what their friends or family may think..
The taboo of white man raping bw in slavery should not be there because what you are doing is becoming a slave to the past,nor should any white man have to be the scapegoat for what his ancestors did..
I believe that if a man treats you right,respects you and loves you enough to put a ring on your finger then that man is worthy despite his color.
There are great black men out there but there are also black men who are jumping on the bandwagon to date any woman who IS NOT black and is more your enemy then your friend,the most venomous comments I have seen aimed at bw have been from black men or racist white men-but you excuse the racist because thats what you would expect,you wouldn’t expect it from a black man.
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V8driver, is that really you?
I’ve never seen your sentences so long and almost grammatically correct before.
if it’s really you, then answer this (if you don’t mind) — before BR came on this blog, who was the other long-winded poster from Brazil?
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Seems like a ghost has taken over v8driver’s body. He was never that verbose.
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@ Ebonymonroe
Please excuse the sloppiness of this post. I just heard about the typhoon and I need to contact my friend. I will respond more later if things permit me.
As I read the first half of your post I kept picturing the stereotypical black woman with head bobbing and yelling “You ain’t sh*t.” And to be honest that is really the only type places I have heard it. Most black women I know would not speak out of their dislike of black men.
Now just taking on a guess I would say that black women want something from black men that are not being met. For some it may be financial gain, but for others I believe it is simply love. I have found that this usually comes from BW who see black men as the first and only choice and when they disappoint then that is it. Now I have also seen this from black women who are with white men and in those situations it is usually a result of an excuse for being with said white man or the generalized belief that white is better.
“Even if it’s not for the right reasons, that’s that person’s life, not mine.”—I can agree, but I also see those type of relationships being detrimental to all those involved (i.e. the kids). If any bit of Asplund’s comment held some truth then his own behavior is a testament of how messed up marrying for the wrong reasons leaves the kids.
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@Maxine
The thing is, White women marry out less than White men. Most White women are not settling down with Black men until they’re making 100k and over. Does that mean White women and Black male relationships are never sincere? No, of course not, it’s just clear that the risks are there for Black men marrying out as well as Black women. But these risks have never stopped Black men.
*There’s a Howard Stern interview with Kim Kardashian and Khloe Kardashian, where they were asked about why they like Black men. The only answers they gave were related to sexu@lity. Every mandingo stereotype in the book. Nothing was mentioned about the culture of Black men, their humility, humour, intellect, resolve, spirituality, the values of from their community. Just their pen!ses.
*Kim said her dad sat down and had a conversation with her about the risks of dating Black men; she spoke on him explaining that what O Jay did to Nicole could easily happen to her if she continued seeing Black men. Did she refute what her dad said as “ignorant?” NO!
*Even on “Kim and Kourtney take New York,” during the season after Kim got married, her friend Jonathan, turned to Kim and said “Kim, you’re right about light skins being so much better because,” (after that point, it became inaudible). Did Kim say “I didn’t say that?” NO! But who is Kim with now? A dark skinned Black man. Which men were, and are, always quick to come to her defense? Black men.
*Black men are treated as sexual objects by many non Black women. There are a number of stories of non Black female girlfriends and spouses of Black men, coming out and saying something offensive about Black people, or something they said in the past about Black people surfacing. Black men are not scorned for sticking with them, nobody cares. Khloe treats her Black girlfriend, Malika, like a subordinate.
*Even that White woman from “Grey’s anatomy” who’s married to a Black man, recently said, on “The view,” that HBCs need to be done away with, because they’re standing in the way and separating. Lol. And when Black women spoke out about it being concerning (her raising a Black child and thinking this way), Black men jumped up, not to challenge what she said, but to champion marriages between Black men and White women.
*There’s even a picture online, of a Black man smiling with his White girlfriend, as she wears a “he’s my n!gg@” t shirt. Black men were defending it, saying “it doesn’t matter, he looks happy.”
*And let’s not forget how excited so many Black men get over the “spades” tattoos White women get, as a sign to show Black men they’re interested in s-x with them.
But it doesn’t matter what they say, Black dudes (even on this blog), would stay cheerleading for a Kim Kardashian.
*Even Steve Mcqueen brought Madonna, (who has made some very racist remarks about Black men and the Black community), to the “12 years a slave” movie premiere, where she ended up texting through half the movie, then comparing being asked to stop, to slavery, by calling the requesting party an “enslaver.” But I’m pretty sure Steve Mcqueen would still walk arm in arm with her to another showing. Even though she stood on the red carpet, as his date, telling reporters she had been having fantasies of Brad Pitt (a White man), as she was on Mcqueen’s arm. I bet you he wouldn’t think twice about doing it all over again with her.
All this works both ways. And as far as all Black men automatically being able to relate to the Black woman’s plight, the truth is, in my opinion, Black men are minorities, and Black women are double minorities. Many, many Black men, (in my experience), are not at all able to relate to a Black woman’s experience. The general Black community experience? Yes. Being sympathetic to the Black woman’s experience just because he’s Black? No. How many times can most Black women admit to hearing the same White supremacist propaganda about Black women, from Black men? Whether it’s us causing our own oppressions, being welfare queens, having innate character flaws, ignorant racist generlisations, etc. It doesn’t matter what you show with the stats, when it comes to the experience of being Black and female, it’s divorced from being something many Black men can relate to. Even on this blog, some of the most racialised misogyny towards Black women, has come from Black men.
Now, don’t get me wrong, that’s not a reflection of all Black men, but the stereotypes of understanding and some sense of communal unity in comparison to “the big bad White man,” and what he’ll do to a sista, and what he won’t understand, is not really much different to the distance between many Black men and women in our time.
I just don’t buy it. Not anymore. At least not for my generation.
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@Sharina
I do understand that many Black women feel disappointed by the Black men in their lives, and I understand that Black men also contend with this. We just seem to be the only community to quickly pin it on “race,” rather then “persons,” which is a trend I haven’t encountered outside the Black community, thus far. The reasons behind this unique trend? Man, I don’t know.
As far as people marrying out for the wrong reasons, and the consequences of such an issue not being addressed. I do completely acknowledge the seriousness of such a state of mind, but what are you gonna do? You can’t convert these people, you can’t steer them away from it. In the same way you’re not gonna convince a White supremacist that their racist views need to be done away with. You can’t control what other people do, you can only be responsible for yourself, and your concern, limited to where it matters and impacts your own walk of life: your significant other, your family, and your friends.
The healthiest form of motivation for specifically trying to find a mate outside of your race, to me, as an actual reaction to experiences amongst your own, would be the mind of “I’ve tried here, I don’t hate here, but I’m gonna try and expand my options for a better chance.”
Of course, if it’s founded on hatred and/or spite, for your own, that’s unhealthy for you and your potential across-the-race-line partner. But that’s something YOU have to deal with, and if your partner finds joy and affirmation in you tearing down your own to exalt them as an interracial partner, when that comes back to bite em’ that’s a cross they’ll have to deal with, since they chose to initially embrace it as validation. If it comes on the kids, that’s both mommy and daddy’s fault for making the conscious decision to birth innocent lives into such a toxic situation.
No one other than the two freaks in love with hatred should be wasting their time concerned with them. We’ve got better things to do.
There is not much more you can do.
Harsh, I know. I’m British, can’t help it.
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@ Ebonymonroe
“Harsh, I know. I’m British, can’t help it.”—No, I don’t take it as harsh because sometimes harsh is the only way to put it out there.
As far as why…this is where I am going to have to throw in the “I don’t know” towel. It would be completely unfair of me to really give any type of concrete knowledge in the matter as I just have not had the pleasure of fully experiencing these type of women as others may have. I could say that white supremacy society has trained us to blame the black man or to blame the issues on black. I have pondered that on a few levels . All in all I think (and this is not to seem mean) that some black people are not mature or level headed enough to realize that the possibility is them. Some believe the idea that I am this and you are this so we should be together and when they are not together then becomes the hurt an anger talking. Just a thought. I feel a bit safer saying I don’t know.
“As far as people marrying out for the wrong reasons, and the consequences of such an issue not being addressed. I do completely acknowledge the seriousness of such a state of mind, but what are you gonna do? You can’t convert these people, you can’t steer them away from it. In the same way you’re not gonna convince a White supremacist that their racist views need to be done away with. You can’t control what other people do, you can only be responsible for yourself, and your concern, limited to where it matters and impacts your own walk of life: your significant other, your family, and your friends”—I agree here because frankly there is nothing to be done. No matter how sad the situation is. You can only pray that the kids of those situations walk away unharmed.
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Abagond,
This is my last communique to you. After this I’m going to leave this blog in the dust and fade into legend.
Quit acting as though you are this impartial judge regarding your comment policy. You banned me twice because you can’t hang rhetorically. You’ve taken simping to a new level- a philosophical one- siding with these ratchets and using your lame ban “hammer” to try and stifle your betters. Still hatin but it aint workin. And also, I didn’t “Impersonate” someone. I just picked the name so that you wouldn’t be able to delete it immediately like a whiny brat. Quit making it seem like I was pretending to be someone else. That post was clearly from the one and only Asplund.
Linda- Still haven’t replied to any of my arguments I see? Figures. When you finally decide to pursue your GED I might just come back to this blog and help guide you. Of course, that’s only if you give up your obsession with my underwear.
Sharina- Look at you, with your old jelly roll self, tryin to talk to me. You aint Spongebob and I aint Squidward, though you are about as smart as Patrick Starfish. You’re just gonna have to keep hatin, too. Because I’m out here grindin. Shining, more like it.
Your rear end is stank.
Legion- Second most committed simp, after Abagond.
WordNerdy-Still aint replied Yet/ I’ll be sure to think of you next time I’m in an Asian love hotel.
My time is worth a lot of money, and I’ve wasted too much tryin to clown around out here. Now I’m out, fading into legend,
“Bounce it,
Bounce it,
I’m about to throw a couple thousand.”
Peace!
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@B. R.
“I will defend wonderful people I know who dont fit these steryotypes , and they are people worth defending..”—As you should. 🙂
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@Ebonymonroe,
“Let me ask you a question that came to me the other day. Why is it when White people, (men and women), have bad relationships with each other, the conclusion is, “my ex was of bad character,” or, “I’ve had bad luck with relationships thus far,” but, with the Black community, when Black men or women have had bad experiences in relationships with one another, the popular conclusion usually drawn is, “Black women are bad” or “Black men are no good?” This common lack of critical thinking when applied to ourselves has increasingly perplexed me. Is it that, when searching for answers after bad relationships, because of pervasive propaganda concerning Black men and women, we absorb this ideology, and, ultimately, find closure in this being the answer to our problems?
I find the lack of critical thinking to be excessively air headed, but I don’t like to think of many of my people as innately air headed.”
Agreed! But, in order for that critical thinking to take hold people need to realize that this is not a BWE or a BME blog and , much more importantly, stop with the hypocritical nonsense. For example, there’s “advice” being offered above that says one should keep their black boys away from pictures of ww…..but…you better not interrupt mommy when she’s watching “Scandal”! LOL!.
More seriously, in terms of interracial dating, the strong race man stereotype that you’re busting on is just as silly as the notion that BW are not dating out because of some heroic race loyalty. Where’s not dealing with sinners vs saints here. The absurd torturing of the meager stats, given the overall dismal context of marriage rates , would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Also, there’s no way you can have open critical thinking when folks keep using ancedotal garbage as “evidence” just to confirm their pre-existing biases (and flatter themselves) while bashing others. The endless tit for tat is fine if one just wants to express an opinion but it’s not “proof” of anything and usually, as seen a lot here, leads to very dubious correlations.
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Abagond:
I guess you’re right about Asplund, impersonate other commenters.
Gotta love Dynamic IP addresses! -_-
Its obvious, that i don’t need to proclaim the above comment, isn’t mine.
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@ sondis,
Yeah, it’s obvious but I’m sure some of your “opponents” wish it was. Heh.
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“ks:
Yeah, it’s obvious but I’m sure some of your “opponents” wish it was. Heh.”
Perhaps but i know and you know, that all my opponents are just that, because i speak the truth about them, and their agenda. So they gather together, along with their white male supporters to silence me.
The majority if not all of the black women on this blog, side with and seem to only talk to, white men. The majority of the time, they are fighting and fussing with black men.
This is their purpose for being here, not to fight white supremacy but to fight the black men, that would expose them for the double agents, they are.
I have yet to have a black man on this blog, to attack me like black women have. I speak about black people and not just black women. It just so happens that i am speaking specifically to black women at certain points in a conversation.
My target audience, isn’t black women. My target audience is BLACK PEOPLE!
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And the award for the most pathetic troll goes to……ASPLUND. Congrats.
You do amazing at not only make sh*t up, but believing it too. 🙂
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it’s me, i’ve been sober for a week, and what. just getting a little annoyed 🙂
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other long-winded poster from .br? huh, well let’s honestly i can’t answer that right now, do i need to post a picture of me waving for verification? lol
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What opponents? Ks, don’t support the hype… it’s not what it seems
No Sondis, I personally don’t want you going anywhere — because as a “strong” black man, I don’t expect you to act like a punk and run
and as I said, I recognize you have Good Intentions with your message, but unfortunately, your delivery sucks.
and what I didn’t expect from you either, were the wild conspiracy theories you were throwing out — attacking everybody left and right — like you’re some gladiator in the ring fighting for survival — there is nobody on this blog out to get you —
nor are any of the people you are talking to or about promoting “white supremacy” — it’s all in your mind, Soldier!
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@ks
Since the 80’s, if African American women have avoided ever marrying out in significant numbers, while African American men have been out marrying everyone besides Asian women, and it has never been about a sense of loyalty, then what do you personally feel is the reason for this? Along with the reason why Black men have been marrying out at a significant rate since the 80’s? What’s your theory for the last three decades Mr. ks? Enquiring minds want to know.
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i just wish SOME people would get it, it doesn’t diminish the civil rights struggle, or black people in general when two people of different races hook up or be in a relationship
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v8…wow. When I saw your comment, I had to scroll up at least twice to check that it was you.
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V8driver…. had to do a “stop and frisk” on you to make sure
because as you can see, Asplund is on the “troll” — running around unchecked and stealing identities
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what does HBC mean
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Ebonymonroe..
I didn’t understand your post completely-though I agreed with most,what was your point about the Kardashians,you’re saying that non black women only see black men as sex toys
I don’t hold up the Kardashians as the trophy interracial celebrity couple,didn’t Kim go to Africa and retweet her sister Khloe a tweet agreeing with Kourtney’s man,Scott that African women look like Apes and Kim herself agreed saying that Africa was a nasty place etc..because it didn’t live up to her standard,the only reason the comment was made public was because instead of Kim typing the correct button to Direct message Khloe,she accidentally tweeted out to her followers and then deleted it soon after,however it was too late.
I don’t believe that all non black women see black men this way,,I believe that there are white women who have a genuine attraction to black men,just as I don’t believe that the only kind of white men that date black women do so out of a fetish.
Somewhere within the numbers,there are genuine people that date each other without basing everything around color,even if its a minority
It is and always will be the result of the legacy left from slavery,as my uncle says-this system is not designed to advance black people at this time and I strongly believe that,certain black guys date out because naively they feel they can progress with other race women,when in fact they will still face the same opposition regardless of whatever women they have on their arm.
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Ebonymore:
Most White women are not settling down with Black men until they’re making 100k and over.
You are from the UK right? I too am from the UK and I have to say this is certainly NOT the examples I have seen. The group of people that participate in IR relationships that I have seen are either on a similar or lower income to me…and I aint on no 100k.
Are you perhaps talking U.S wise?
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@Ebonymonroe
My stepsister is married to a black man and my cousin will probably be engaged to one soon. Both of them were approached by black men frequently in the area where they live and go to school, These guys showered them with compliments and were persistent even when my sister and cousin made excuses and didn’t really care about going out with them. My black brother-in-law bent over backwards to get my stepsister. He kept hanging around and doing all kinds of things for her. He was so sweet to her. He loves her much. She finally realized she probably couldn’t do much better than him, so she just went ahead and married him. My family is liberal, so they pretty much don’t care who we marry as long as we are loved.
My white male cousins would go for black women, but they said the black women they meet don’t act like they like white men or act scared. This is why I don’t like what Sondis is doing. He’s deliberately trying to scare black women away from all white men, not just the racist ones..
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@linda ok np
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also, please note on the above spoofed sondis posting, his picture was not in the gravatar icon window on the top right of the posting
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@Maxine
That’s exactly what I said. I gave numerous examples where White/non Black women behave in a way, or have said something racist, where Black men defend them/it. This was me addressing the idea of many BW being bdwchs, when the truth is, many Black men have been c00ning and stay c00ning for non Black women, in public, a lot. DOES THAT MEAN ALL WHITE WOMEN/BLACK MAN RELATIONSHIPS AREN’T SINCERE? NOOOOOO! But that there are certainly instances where they’re not, but Black men don’t chastise that, the way they do Black women and the general condemnation towards BW/WM relationships, despite the fact that Black men have been more likely to do it thus far (go White and c00n or just go White), so it’s like rocks from glass houses, to me.
@Omnipresent
I’m talking about the US.
@v8driver
Historic Black colleges
@Sondis
I’m not fighting you, brotha, I’m just fleshing out some if your grievances from a Black woman’s perspective and extending it to Black men who do the same, and oftentimes, much worse, and a lot more often.
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smh at the hypocrisies. its funny how it seems ppl are campaigning as if they are competing for undecided voters. who are those supposed undecided voters? black women. it seems ppl love to talk about what black women are doing wrong or are not doing. I thought this thread was about interracial relationships not just black women interracial, I thought there was a thread just specifically talking about black women and white men. But I guess black women with other men even if it is a small percent is somehow the center of it all. I would’ve thought based on the numbers we’d be talking about Asian women and white men or white men other women or white women other men. but somehow it skips the majority of interracial relationships and goes to a smaller percent of black women that do. I can understand some ppl feeling a certain way because of the history but it is hypocrisy to not see that black males have a certain history with white women but I don’t really see ppl pointing that out. Sometimes I think some ppl are possessive, I just wonder if the percent for black women dating men of color was higher than black women white men if the same ppl will attack that as well.
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“Ebonymonroe:
“I’m not fighting you, brotha, I’m just fleshing out some if your grievances from a Black woman’s perspective and extending it to Black men who do the same, and oftentimes, much worse, and a lot more often.”
@: o O ) >
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@Ebonymonroe,
“Since the 80′s, if African American women have avoided ever marrying out in significant numbers, while African American men have been out marrying everyone besides Asian women, and it has never been about a sense of loyalty, then what do you personally feel is the reason for this? Along with the reason why Black men have been marrying out at a significant rate since the 80′s? What’s your theory for the last three decades Mr. ks? Enquiring minds want to know.”
Well truly enqiuring minds would not cherrypick certain time periods and offer a “theory” for one side (BW) that is nothing more than self flattering speculation. : ) My theory? I don’t have one because when you look at the data on marriage, to use a spin on my earlier analogy, it’s like aruging who has a bigger room on the Titanic. Trying to play the blame/hero game when we have reached at point where only 31% of women period are getting married doesn’t make much sense to me. To put it more directly, the vast majority of black people don’t appear to be getting married (though those that do mostly marry each other) and that should be the main issue. Given that reality, the “loyalty” argument about a small subset within a small minority is, imo, laughable.
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@ks
Could you cite the sources of your stats? I’m sure that you have a variety of sources.
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@ks
First of all 75% of African American women are married by 35, so the idea that the vast majority of Black people are not getting married is waaay off.
Secondly, I have never implied that Black women have an all encompassing loyalty to Black men, but rather that Black women have long been the least likely to marry out of all groups, while, in comparison, Black men have long been the most likely to marry out of all male groups. When people (well, when I) have spoken of loyalty, I’m talking math and not cultural morality. There’s simply no two ways about it. It’s not heroic, it’s just the way it is. Matter fact, looking on from the UK, I think it’s stupid.
Thirdly, I presented the fact that this has been going on in the States for multiple decades, so the idea of pinning it on the backdrop of today’s marriage rate drop is non applicable.
We can talk bdwchs all day, we can talk White supremacy all day, but it seems when sistas begin discussing how this has possibly brought about the disparity, all of a sudden there’s a whole lot of side stepping. But the stepping will continue. There’s one thing that can absolutely be said, no one can complain about Black women championing marrying out and call them bdwnchs because if numbers on Black men marrying out don’t exist, it certainly doesn’t on the other side.
Someone like Sondis can speak on his frustration with this from his side, but Black women bring up the numbers to speak on their side of it. . . it doesn’t even exist.
Is what it is and it ain’t what it ain’t.
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@Jayis,
Oh cmon now. We’ve been over this several times already with all the detailed info and where to get it. Stop playing like you don’t know that. If you want the latest report that most of the media is using go to : NCFMR – “Marriage a Century of Change”.
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In terms of what EbonyMonroe just posted, I have to wonder about this stat claiming that 70% of BW are single. Everywhere I go I see black couples, particularly when I’m in diverse or black areas.
Maybe blacks aren’t marrying as much as we should, but 70% of black women are not single!
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@ Maxine: Good points.
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@Ebonymonroe,
“First of all 75% of African American women are married by 35, so the idea that the vast majority of Black people are not getting married is waaay off.
Secondly, I have never implied that Black women have an all encompassing loyalty to Black men, but rather that Black women have long been the least likely to marry out of all groups, while, in comparison, Black men have long been the most likely to marry out of all male groups. When people (well, when I) have spoken of loyalty, I’m talking math and not cultural morality. There’s simply no two ways about it. It’s not heroic, it’s just the way it is. Matter fact, looking on from the UK, I think it’s stupid.”
No you’re not really talking about math. You’re interpreting the math or more accurately, the ir marry out rate, as “loyalty” when you have no way of actually knowing if something as ephemeral and ill defined as loyalty, or lack thereof, has anything to do with whether people marry out or not. It’s bad logic and again, just rank speculation.
You can dance around the reality and massage the numbers, as the Toldson and Marks study you’re quoting which, changed the age definition from the standard 18+ to their supposed “more realistic” by 35 and ignored the more relevant “currently married” standard, if it makes you feel better but, feelings aside, a current 31 per 1000 overall rate for all women tells the real story. The data is voluminous and the trendlines are clear about falling marriage rates in general. The US is lucky that it’s a lagging indicator behind the rest of the West
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There’s nothing wrong with interpreting the statistics on marrying out and concluding: Asian women are the least racially loyal of all groups when it comes to marrying out.
Black men are the least racially loyal group of all male groups when it comes to marrying out.
African American women, thus far, have remained the most racially loyal group when it comes to marriage.
You take issue with the Toldson and Marks study too? Even though they were right in dismissing teen years as most people in the West no longer marry in their teen years? Lol.
I remember reading on sbm the other day, even a Black male writer admitted his perspective is. . .
Most Black women would prefer to marry a Black man.
Most Black men are very open to interracial dating, but will just end up marrying a Black woman.
I’m not saying his opinion is the Bible or anything, but that’s the general perspective. Most groups tend to stick with their own a great deal, but although the Black men tend to settle down with Black women, a very significant amount marry out, which does not match the trend of Black women in the US. The number is significant enough that it has long surpassed all other male groups. There’s no massaging numbers, it’s the way it is. In the UK that jumps to 50% of Black men narrying out. There’s no messaging anytime you place the African diaspora in a “White country,” the pattern is as stated. Abagond doesn’t message the numbers, but he’s mentioned that it’s real and not imagined. And it does surpass all other male groups, which is a significant thing.
Well just have to completely agree to disagree on this one.
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@maryburrell
Thank you.
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@ebonymonroe
I’m glad you see what I see,
I think it’s catching on in the USA is well as article documented in the voice paper that bm/ww marriages are increasing at a fast rate,
I find it bizarre that black men in general don’t take the time to marry black women at such a fast rate or any rate,
I feel that with other women they know what’s expected.
Part of the fault lies with black women because they settle to easily below the norm standards,the generation of black people today do not marry and are happy to cohabitate where others do not,
I don’t know,the tradition of marriage got lost somewhere but many black people don’t realize how instrumental,and important it is to have that solid family structure,it’s not just about vows or tradition
A relationship will always be seen as that but a marriage shows solidarity,coming together,a union of what families stand for,if black women’started implementing rules at the start of a relationship by raising the barrier,then black men would have to start applying it..it’s a sad legacy but I think the black race comes off really badly when it comes to family values etc
I find the very well known stat of 70% single black women hard to believe,it’s definitely to do with being unmarried.
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@Alicia and Maxine
Go check out the Toldson and Marks study that proved 75% of Black women are married by 35 in the US, and while you’re at it, check out the Tim Wise 72% out of wedlock birth rate in the African American community fallacy. You have to be very careful with the hype. A lot of White people, and sadly many members of the Black community, like to believe the worst said of their community, like Fox news cheerleaders of something, but it doesn’t make it true. The Black community is getting married and the majority of marriages are between Black men and Black women.
Black men are now even out doing White American males in college attendance in the US, and African American women, as a collective, have now surpassed everyone in college attendance. They’ll tell you most AA men are criminals but fail to bring up the census, which shows AA men, and, in fact, the African American community, does not commit the most crimes. Not even gun crimes. They’ll remind you of the numbers of AA men behind bars, but fail to mention that this phenomena has been caused by the war on drugs, and that the numbers are made up of AA men serving time for non violent drug offenses. That goes for AA women too. Both AA men and women are serving 10+ years, for non violent drug offenses, statistically much more than non BM and non BW murderers and sexual offenders. They highlight the prison industrial complex, the numbers, and the war on drugs, while also failing to bring up the fact that 50% of the African American community is living below the poverty line. A little while ago, after the stock market crashed, 50% of AA men in New York, were unemployed. American police departments have admitted that the AA community is one of the most conservative when it comes to the right to own firearms. Even African students, statistically, have been making the highest achievements in academia, but are still the least likely to find employment out of all foreign students in America.
I’m not saying the African American community is made up of angels, but we are definitely doing well considering, and a lot better than many other communities, in various areas, who are not even on the bottom of the totem pole.
When it comes to Black marriage vs interracial marriage, in a lifetime, on average, no matter what social class, 84% of African American men wed African American women, and that’s just the way it is. The previous stats were taking into account AA women aged 18, which is ridiculous because no one is getting married at 18. At 18, I was busy with my studies and conquering Super Mario. At 18 I could just about cook, and do laundry without ruining my clothes. 18 is unrealistic, so is 21. You’ve got to research this hype, be very careful what they push at you that you mindlessly absorb.
As far as interracial marriage, yes Black men and women marry each other for the most part, but there is still a significant disparity there. I presented the question, when I first posted on this thread, if racism was a lot less (openly) prevalent in the US like the UK, would your numbers end up like ours in the UK where 50% of Black men marry out, I was told yes, probably. In the US the disparity has been going on since the turn of the 80’s, that’s before I was even born, and it has increased and increased. It’s not just for the moment. They say there’s already, like, 1 million more AA women than men, so many more AA women are going to have to marry out if they want to get married. AA men have surpassed all male groups at marrying out, thus far, and it is ever increasing by the decade. I don’t have a problem with it, but you’ve got to be practical. That’s just the way it is. A lot of these sistas out here are not on some self hating kick, they’ve just begun to get practical about it.
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@ Maxine
Very well said. There is power in a solid family structure.
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70% means maybe not married. 70% of black women are NOT single! dating, co-habitating, in a relationship but most likely not married. I’m surprised given what we know about white people that we throw that statistic out there so non-chalanatly.
Let’s also not forget that black women are marrying IR too. I date IR ( find tall Hispanic men to be among the most attractive to me, plus Indian and of course Black men) , but what gets me is how Black men can pursue White women in such a society but I have also heard black women who prefer white men which I don’t ‘get’ either because 98% of the White men I meet, even those walking with black women, display racial issues or those little racially-tinged mannerisms.
Also, once you date IR with whites, most likely you will have to live amongst a lot of Whites too which means you will have to deal with certain racism issues while there. I’m not into that scene or dealing with other peoples mental issues, that includes racism, so that lifestyle is not for me.
White men that are open to black women do so with risk as the majority of White men do not want Black women to be wanted. Not by other White men and even not wanted by our own Black men. White women in general don’t seem to care about Black women/White men, however many are racist so don’t expect any “sister” relationships with them once you are with a white male, but I do know of families whom have accepted the black spouse/date.
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In terms of Blacks not marrying or having kids out of wedlock – which all races are doing nowadays. I just don’t get HOW in God’s name a woman can have a child for a man when she’s not married, considering how expensive it is, how easy it is for a non-married man to leave, how men change, and how much support is needed to raise a family, I just don’t get it.
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@ Sharina
Thank you very much.
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RANDOM MESSAGE AKA MAXINE lol
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I just want to clarify that I’m not a troll or trolling as I have 2 different names,I don’t really comment but have been a silent viewer to these posts and once in a while I would use the above name=Random message,however I use my own name now of Maxine,and just to clarify I have not said anything in either name to mislead anyone.
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Black community 72% out of wedlock birth rate fallacy
Baby Mama Drama: Explaining Conservative Deception About Out-of-Wedlock Births in the Black Community.
Ever since my post two days ago, in which I detailed the way the right, a) distorts evidence about social pathology in black communities with regard to crime and out-of-wedlock childbirth, and b) routinely ignores those pathologies that are prevalent in white spaces, I’ve been bombarded with requests for further clarification. Specifically, about the matter of out-of-wedlock childbearing among black women. Folks are apparently confused by the evidence and would like to better understand what I was saying and why conservative arguments about this issue are entirely fraudulent.
I agree that the data is confusing, and so I will try and explain it as clearly as possible.
First, to recap: when conservatives argue that there is an “illegitimacy” crisis in black America, and that rising out-of-wedlock birthrates are the real cause of black folks’ problems, they demonstrate an inability to actually understand statistics. The fact is, the birth rate for unmarried black women (births per 1000 such women of childbearing age) is dropping, not rising. For black teens, the birth rate has fallen by half since 1970 and is now at its lowest point ever, and for black women generally the out-of-wedlock birthrate is down by about a third in that same period of time.
However, as conservatives note, it is also true that the percentage of black births that are out-of-wedlock as a share of all black births has risen, nearly doubling since 1970, and now stands at just over 72 percent.
Both of these things are true: declining birth rates and fertility rates for unmarried black women (i.e., unmarried black women are increasingly being more and more “responsible” in conservative terms, not less), and also a climbing share of out-of-wedlock kids as a share of all black kids born.
The reason for these seemingly contradictory trends can best be explained like this:
Imagine a community of 100,000 people of childbearing age (50,000 men and 50,000 women), where half the men and women are married and half of each are single. Of the 25,000 single women, imagine that 500 had babies this year. This would represent a very small number, and an unmarried birth rate of 20 babies per 1000 women. You could also represent this by saying that only about 2% of single women in this community would have a baby out of wedlock this year, since most women would have only one child per year, and so the 500 babies born likely represent roughly 500 of the 25,000 women too.
But let’s say that that same year, for whatever reason, only 200 of the married women gave birth. In that case, 500 of the 700 babies born, or over 71 percent of all babies born in this community would be out-of-wedlock! Oh my God! Send out the cultural police! But note, this result would not in any way reflect the widespread misbehavior of single women and their male companions — after all 98 percent of all unmarried women are not giving birth — but rather, it would reflect the fact that married couples were simply having even fewer kids than single women were.
And in fact, that is what has happened in the U.S. Even though single black women have cut back on how many babies they have while unmarried, married black women have cut back even further. So if single black women have reduced their birthrates by a third, but married couples have cut theirs by over half, or even two-thirds (which is the case), then obviously the percentage of births in the black community that are out-of-wedlock will rise.
The reason it is unfair for conservatives to seize upon the latter of these facts while ignoring the context that explains it, is that their argument is first and foremost that black folks need to stop having babies out of wedlock. But the data says they are already cutting back on that, and dramatically so. In other words, the trend lines in that regard are positive. To suggest a pathological — and increasingly so — black culture when it comes to out-of-wedlock childbirth is entirely dishonest. If anything, “black culture” if we really want to suggest it is linked to the decision to bear children out-of-wedlock, must be improving, rather than regressing. So conservatives should be celebrating these trends.
Meanwhile, as I noted — and since black single women are already cutting back on childbearing — there is only one other way that that 72 percent number could be brought down. But it is unlikely that conservative white folks are going to push for it: namely, if black couples started having 5, 6, even 10 kids each, that number (the percentage of black births that are out of wedlock as a percentage of all black births) would be cut in half within a year or so. So, since single black women are already behaving increasingly “responsibly” in terms of their childbearing behavior, how about it white folks? How about we push for a massive increase in married black womens’ fertility? Maybe pass out fertility drugs so they can have triplets and quads? Maybe encourage them to go the “full Dugger family” and have 20? That way, the share of out-of-wedlock births in the black community can plummet and everyone can stop talking about sh*t they don’t understand. Oh, and the black population would also skyrocket, so…
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
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Source Tim Wise
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Four Myths About Black Marriage (often spouted by many White people and coons.)
Is marriage for white people? That question has been asked in one form or another in a series of news reports about the black marriage “crisis.” On the surface, such stories seem to be concerned about black women in search of love, but these media reports have largely served to fuel stereotypes about African Americans. Moreover, by suggesting that too few black men are available to wed, news stories on black marriage have done little more than predict doom and gloom for African-American women who hope to marry. In reality, black marriage isn’t reserved for the likes of Barack and Michelle Obama. Analysis of census data and other figures has debunked much of the misinformation floating around in the media about the black marriage rate.
Black Women Don’t Marry
The barrage of news reports about the black marriage rate gives the impression that African-American women’s chances of walking down the aisle are bleak. A Yale University study found that just 42 percent of black women are married, and a variety of high profile news networks such as CNN and ABC picked that figure up and ran with it. But researchers Ivory A. Toldson of Howard University and Bryant Marks of Morehouse College question the accuracy of this finding. “The often-cited figure of 42 percent of black women never marrying includes all black women 18 and older,” Toldson told the Root.com. “Raising this age in an analysis eliminates age groups we don’t really expect to be married and gives a more accurate estimate of true marriage rates.”
Toldson and Marks found that 75 percent of black women marry before they turn age 35 after examining census data from 2005 to 2009. Moreover, black women in small towns have higher marriage rates than white women in urban centers such as New York and Los Angeles, Toldson remarked in the New York Times.
Educated Black Women Have it Harder
Getting a college degree is just about the worst thing a black woman can do if she wants to get married, right? Not exactly. News stories about black marriage often mention that more black women pursue higher education than black men—by a 2-to-1 ratio according to some reports. But what these pieces leave out is that white women also earn college degrees more than white men do, and this gender imbalance hasn’t hurt white women’s chances at matrimony. What’s more, black women who finish college actually improve their chances of marrying rather than lower them. “Among black women, 70 percent of college graduates are married by 40, whereas only about 60 percent of black high school graduates are married by that age,” Tara Parker-Pope of the New York Times reported. The same trend is at play for black men. In 2008, 76 percent of black men with a college degree married by age 40. In contrast, only 63 percent of black men with just a high school diploma tied the knot. So education increases the likelihood of marriage for both African-American men and women. Moreover, Toldson points out that black women with college degrees are more likely to marry than white female high school dropouts.
Rich Black Men Marry Out
Black men drop black women as soon as they reach a certain level of success, don’t they? While plenty of rap stars, athletes and musicians may choose to date or marry interracially when they achieve fame, the same is not true for the bulk of successful black men. By analyzing census data Toldson and Marks found that 83 percent of married black men who earned at least $100,000 annually got hitched to black women. The same is the case for educated black men of all incomes. Eighty-five percent of black male college graduates married black women. Generally, 88 percent of married black men (no matter their income or educational background) have black wives. This means that interracial marriage should not be held responsible for the singleness of black women.
Black Men Don’t Earn as Much as Black Women
Just because black women are more likely to graduate from college than their male counterparts doesn’t mean that they out-earn black men. Actually, black men are more likely than black women to bring home at least $75,000 annually. Plus, double the number of black men than women make at least $250,000 annually. Because of pervasive gender gaps in income, black men remain the breadwinners in the African-American community.
These numbers indicate that there are more than enough financially successful black men to go around for black women. Of course, not every black woman is looking for a breadwinner. Not every black woman is even seeking marriage. Some black women are happily single. Others are gay, lesbian or bisexual and unable to legally wed those they love. For heterosexual black women in search of marriage, however, the forecast is not nearly as gloomy as has been portrayed in the media.
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Source Toldson and Marks study.
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But of course, we’ll stay believing the hype.
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@ Alicia
But When I say that other races marry more frequently than the black race,its not an exaggeration,the Asian Race, the African black race and the white race seem to marry at an alarmingly higher rate than british black or African American generations of today.
To me you have 2 groups of white women with non white men the ones that expect and get married and the lower class ones that settle with any man,take these ones away from the equation -and most white women do marry
Where as most black women do not and as a result have children out of wedlock because it has become an acceptable way of life in black families.
In relation to white men wanting black women to be single I don’t accept that because white men generally are attracted to their own women for the most part and there is nothing wrong with that just like a lot of Asian women like white men-the other type of white males dates out,some may have racist tendencies but these ones could easily presume the same in black females who generally prefer black men
You have to remember that if a white man is only attracted to his own,that is not racist but it is normal-as humans you are automatically predisposed to be attracted more to your own mate then others,really its not the white mans job to make sure black women have a partner its the black mans,the problem is that while most white men prefer to date his own,black men are more willing then any race male ,according to the studies and in society to date other females so I would say if anyone wants the black women single it would be these type males.
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@ Ebonymonroe
Thank you so much for that comment on black marriage and illegitimacy rates.
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^^^Correction to my above post
*no matter what social class, 88% (not 84%) of African American men wed African American women.
@Abagond
It’s my pleasure.
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@ ebonymonroe
U are on It today lol, thanks for clarifying.
@ Maxine
I don’t think ppl think its racist for white males to prefer white women, or anybody to prefer their own for that matter. What is racist is when ppl feel the need to compare two ppl and make fun of the other person. There have been black women on here and other blogs that have said how some white men will say they are ugly in front of their white girlfriend or Asian girlfriend to make the black women feel uncomfortable and so the white males girlfriend feels superior. I’ve not experienced this but I don’t doubt that it happens, just like some black couples say how some white ppl will stare at them or be rude to them. During jim crow it was illegal for black couple to even kiss or show affection in public, now that goes beyond just preferring your own but being offended to see someone different from u being loved or showing love while u get to is racist.
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@Maxine
Yeah I’m gonna have to cosign with you there. I’m definitely aware that there’s a lot of ignorant attitudes among White men when it comes to race, that goes for the entire White community. This ignorance, subtle sense of superiority, and an aversion to viewing Blacks as equal human beings, is far more common than out and out White supremacist racism, today. BUT, I don’t believe that the majority of White men hate Black women, that they’re actually responsible for any Black men being loving towards Black women, and I certainly don’t think the majority of White men are spending their time actively thinking up ways in which they can stop Black women from having anything. I’ve never come across this among White guys, in the UK or the US. I’m not saying I think it doesn’t happen, but I don’t personally believe it’s among the life aims of the majority of White men.
In truth, White men actually marry out more than White women, but the White male demographic is part of the majority race in the US, that’s why Black male interracial marriage rates surpass them, there are just far more White guys to go around. The UK suffers from White supremacy A LOT, too, but the Black British female population has not closed itself off from interracial marriage the way African American women have, thus far. As I’ve said, over 30% of Black women marry out in the UK, I would imagine, being that issues of race are very much in existence in the UK, like the US, if African American women wanted to close the gap on the disparity, they could, but thus far, they seem to have reserved their mate selection only for African American men. But that could be changing, as Black women/White man and Black woman/Asian man marriages are apparently the fastest growing interracial marriage rate, now. So I’d imagine that the disparity will begin to get more narrow over the coming generation.
In truth, African American women have outdone every group at refusing to broaden their pool of mate selection, moreso than ALL groups, so it’s not soley down to African American men not being willing to love African American women, as the Toldson study I posted above shows that to be to the contrary, it’s really just that African American women, unlike every other gender of every race in America, have refused to broaden their marrying pool outside of African American men, thus far.
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^^^
*that they’re actually responsible for any Black men being loving towards Black women,
@misstoogoodforyall
You’re more than welcome, the truth seems to have been buried under a rock of stereotypes and distortions as it pertains to the African American community, for some odd reason. It’s quite ridiculous.
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@Ebonymonroe,
I turn you on to Tim Wise and see what happens! LOL.
In terms of the Toldson and Marks study you’re hanging onto I’d be careful of “feelgoodism” that seeks to spin established data though I get the empowerment angle that’s all the rage now. For example, the headline you cite – “75% of BW are married by 35” doesn’t really tell you much because it conflates married women, divorced women, widows, etc. into their arbitrary “married by 35” bucket which is why established groups who follow the issue like the Census, the Bowling Green folks I mentioned, etc., use % currently married and overall rate of marriage because it tells you the exact situation and current trend.
Sure you can manipulate the core data somewhat credibly and somewhat dubiously, as Toldson and Marks did, but the it remains and all the empowerment spinning is not going to change it. Imo, it’s better to face it directly so we can get broad solutions which will likely improve other areas of the community as well. Despite all the finger pointing hot air on this issue, the three main things that will probably affect the black marriage rate in a positive way would be the slow down or end of mas incarceration, a substantial effort to improve the economy and a revival of public education.
People can go on and on about “loyalty” and pile anecdote on top anecdote in a seemingly never ending effort to mind read the actions of others all they want but, in the end, young dudes with criminal records, no job prospects and limited educations either aren’t going to get or stay married in any significant numbers.
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@ks
Prior to my question regarding the trend of BIack men and women reacting to bad experiences with each other by stereotyping their entire race, which was aimed at all members of the Black community who frequent the blog, I hadn’t mentioned numerical “loyalty” to African American men in terms of African American women’s marriage mate pool selection, since my debate with Adonis in the open thread. And even then, “numerical loyalty,” was in context of the disparity, not the general topic of “things high on the list of what has plagued the Black commuminity, in general.”
As far as Toldson and Marks, I don’t believe anyone interprets the study as “Black love living happily ever after,” first marriages are prone to divorce across all races, in the US. The point is, the majority of African American women are getting married, full stop. Which is a truth that has become so grossly distorted that it is thought to be the opposite.
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@Ebonymonroe,
Ah I see, the “loyalty” thing was a carryover of your epic debate? : ) with Adonis but c’mon, “numerical loyalty” is a reach though I understand it in the context of your back and forth with Adonis.
Insofar as your other point, the truth hasn’t become distorted at all. You’re just looking at a different metric which was create for a specific purpose and I can understand that as you’re combating a pernicious “media” narrative.
But, imo, it’s not a full stop in terms of really examining the issue as “getting married” is not a meaningful a metric as currently married or rate of marriage or divorce rate or remarriage rate, etc. because, as I said above, it’s an iffy conflation (especially if you push the age to 35) that in this case was designed to do what it actually did – successfully combat the mainstream media narrative via outlets like The Grio, Root, etc. as opposed to really examining the issue. That’s fine and has it’s valid uses but, I’m just cautioning against taking our eyes off the ball.
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@ks
Yeah numerical loyalty. It’s a fly term and I only just made it up.
I get what you’re saying. But, as you said, when we go beyond the issue of just “getting married,” there are a number of dimensions to it (in the Black community) that make it a multi-layered issue. There’s the backdrop of marriage rates all across the West, as well as the rise in divorce rates. And when it comes to the African American community, there’s the economic disadvantage (which is actually the leading cause for divorce, in general). There’s the prison industrial complex, Black male mortality rate, and at this point, (dare I say it), the fact that Black women already greatly outnumber Black men, while Black men outdo all races of men in marrying out, which, ultimtely, can become another facet of a social, judicial, and economic climate, by adding to the disadvantage by heightening the sheer numbers. When it comes to the issue of marriage, I definitely am in agreement that there are many issues at play, and many which are issues that are being experienced by all races in the West, but are simply exasperated in an already disadvantaged group.
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@Ebonymonroe,
Well said. Now let’s get to work! There’s no reason that this can’t be turned around. Our legendary endurance as a people will serve us well as usual.
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@Trinidad African
SitYo Brown Nosey AzzDown
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^^^
*the social, judicial, economic climate
*the sheer numbers game.
@Trinidad African
That’s a sweet sentiment. My curiosity is what is behind such a statistic. What’s going on the community that leads to it. And if your statement is true, why do many Black men feel threatened by Black women.
@ks
I wish. (I know, I know, it sounds defeatist.) That would require a lot. And a lot more than many brothas and sistas are willing to do.
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@Adonis
Here you go, hatin on a pharaohic brotha.
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“Adonis
@Trinidad African
SitYo Brown Nosey AzzDown”
LMFAO!!!
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@ Ebonymonroe,
Sure we can and, knowing us, we probably will. It might be a tad…contentious…at times but we can make it happen.
The reason I find the, for lack of better words, marry out, issue so tiresome is that its a distraction that usually dissolves into a blame game shouting match. Yeah it would be great if the marry out rates were equal or maybe none though the latter is not fair to individuals (or the concept of individual love) and pretty unrealistic and, in the end, won’t happen.
Even if it did, it wouldn’t move the needle much so long as what’s happening to young black men continues to happen. If society continues to make generations of them essentially and functionally “non-persons or citizens” via what I talked about earlier then the future is indeed gloomy and your defeatism will be well founded.
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Ebonymonroe
@Adonis
“Here you go, hatin on a pharaohic brotha.”
There you go again, all up in Adonis mouf! lmaoo <<<–notice i spelled, mouth as "mouf" LMFAOO!
Girl, you act like, Adonis yo man…lemme make it clear boo….Adonis, is NACHO MAN! LMFAOO! <—again, not, "not your man" but, NACHO MAN! LMFAOO!
<<
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I’m just having a little fun with ya, Ebonymonroe ^_^
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I don’t know where you’re getting that from. My debate with Adonis began with him “Ebonymonroe-ing me, and on several occasions, when I attempted to just opt out, he’d accuse me of running away, so we finally just went in and had a real debate.
Many people complain about Black men or women championing other races above their own (cough, cough), but are often quick to, or in agreement with those who champion their own. Yes, I do tend to defend brothas and sistas who champion their own against Black men and women who chastise them for doing this. And I keep to my word at that.
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Kanye West And His “Thirty White B!+(hes”
“Yeezus,” the new and almost pathologically anticipated Kanye West album, was leaked online two weeks ago and then, probably out of custom, released legally last week. Upon first listen it reminded me of Nine Inch Nails, Death Grips, and my dad—but not because West now has a two-week-old child with girlfriend Kim Kardashian.
When my father was in undergrad at a small HBCU in the Midwest, he joined the storied black fraternity Kappa Alpha Psi. Fraternity chapters, despite their ethnic and regional differences, will nevertheless always share some DNA, and so it shouldn’t surprise you that my dad’s frat was big on giving people nicknames. Some brothers were called things like “Bumpy” and “Snowman.” My dad, owing to the fact that his girlfriend at the time was a beautiful and extremely fair-skinned black woman with flowing hair, was bestowed the honorific “Brother Jefferson, Keeper of the White Woman.”
To be raised as a man of color in America—especially a black man, and particularly a very dark black man—is to eventually learn that much about you is threatening to the general public. Obvious exposures to that fact include classic racist hits like people crossing the street to avoid you, convenience store owners following you up and down their aisles, and police shooting you for no real reason at all. Less transparent reminders are things like my dad’s frat nickname.
While just a casual, stupid sobriquet on its surface, like many jokes it contained a modicum of honest emotion: Here was a group of young black men, in the Civil Rights Era, no less, who had internalized and then propagated the idea that one true mark of strength a man could demonstrate was his ability to dominate white women. And when there were no white women to reign over, a black woman who looked white would have to suffice.
Four decades later, “Yeezus” is risen, and Pitchfork says the album sparkles with “bold intent.” But if much of Kanye’s latest effort is intrepid, industrial progress, one big swath remains anchored firmly in the past, like a rocket ship heated with a wood-burning stove.
Consider this lyric from “Yeezus”: “Black dick all in your spouse again/ And I know she like chocolate men/ She got more niggas off than Cochran.”
This one, too: “They see a black man with a white woman at the top floor/ They gon’ come to kill King Kong.”
In this one, while “white” isn’t openly stated, it’s rather heavily implied: “Fuck you and your Hampton house/ I fucked your Hampton spouse/ Came on her Hampton blouse/ And in her Hampton mouth.”
If you’re sensing a pattern, I’d imagine that was the artist’s intent.
Kanye West’s ostensible obsession with fucking white women, and what it means to fuck white women, is not unique to his raps, of course. Even 24 years ago, on his track “Pimpin’ Ain’t Easy,” Big Daddy Kane bragged, “I’m tall, dark and handsome and all that junk/ Even white girls be sayin’ ‘Ooh, Kane’s a hunk!'” Neither is West’s fetish a new addition to his craft. In one of his biggest and earliest hits, “Gold Digger,” West warns black women of the disloyalty of their ambitious black men, who will “leave [their] ass for a white girl.” Later, West’s 2010 solo album, “My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy,” included the stick-in-your-head one-liner “Champagne wishes/ Thirty white bitches.” In West’s video for “Monster,” also from “MBDTF,” one scene finds the rapper sitting in bed playing with the lingerie-clad bodies of lifeless white women. There’s no indication as to whether Kanye killed them, but there they are, their light eyes clouded with a milky stillness.
Not-so-recent but not-so-ancient history helps clarify why a black man might be interested in making it widely known that he can and will sleep with white women. In antebellum and then post-Civil War America, the retribution meted out to black men accused of molesting white women—regardless of the validity of the accusations—was often swift and deadly, with suspected rapists being publicly castrated, beaten, burned alive, perhaps all three.
Black boxing champion Jack Johnson was arrested in 1912 for violating the Mann Act, which made it illegal to bring women across state lines for “immoral” purposes. The woman Johnson was transporting was his girlfriend, who would one day be his wife, but Johnson’s white arresting officers reported that she was a prostitute.
In 1955, the murder of Chicago teenager Emmett Till in Mississippi centered largely around Till allegedly making a pass at a white woman in a convenience store, telling her he’d “had” white women before. When the woman told her husband what happened, he and his friends tortured and murdered Till. As they beat him before they killed him, Till’s tormentors dared him to say again that he’d had white women. The 14-year-old Till, reportedly unflinching in the face of certain death, obliged: “You bastards, I’m not afraid of you,” he said. “I’m as good as you are. I’ve ‘had’ white women.”
After an all-white, all-male jury had acquitted them of murdering Till, Till’s killers, Roy Bryant and J.W. Milam, would publicly confess to the crime. In a media interview, Milam would say he had no other option (emphasis mine):
“Well, what else could we do? He was hopeless. … [W]hen a nigger gets close to mentioning sex with a white woman, he’s tired o’ livin’. I’m likely to kill him. Me and my folks fought for this country, and we got some rights. I stood there in that shed and listened to that nigger throw that poison at me, and I just made up my mind. ‘Chicago boy,’ I said, ‘I’m tired of ’em sending your kind down here to stir up trouble. Goddam you, I’m going to make an example of you—just so everybody can know how me and my folks stand.'”
Confronted with the obvious fact that white men thought white women to be their most prized possession, it’s not surprising that some black men began considering it a triumph to bed white ladies, especially in a nation as structurally racist as America. When you strip away a person’s ability to dignify himself through rational means—educational attainment, fulfilling work, etc.—you leave him flailing to dignify himself through irrational means, like buying a certain brand of shoes or sleeping with a certain color of woman
That impulse gets ugly fast. Former Black Panther Minister of Information Eldridge Cleaver said in some of his earlier writings that he believed raping white women was revolutionary, an “insurrectionary act.” In a similar vein, Amiri Baraka once postulated that taking white women from white men was payback for centuries of inhuman oppression. “[T]he average ofay thinks of the black man as potentially raping every white lady in sight,” he once wrote. “Which is true, in the sense that the black man should want to rob the white man of everything he has.”
Kanye West has never advocated raping anyone. His persistent fixation on conquering white women—the lure of white women, injuring white men via their women, etc.—is troublingly retrograde for a multimillionaire who some consider to be the harbinger of a neo-Black Power movement. It ultimately gives lie to the fact that Kanye sees himself as “a god,” as he claims on Yeezus, or, as he told Jon Caramanica in that winding New York Times interview, that he is “so credible and so influential and so relevant.” I’ve yet to see a black man who is truly confident in his human worth and his power spend time crowing about ejaculating onto white chicks. What’s more, what does it yield West in the end? As Kiese Laymon askedthe other day: “Do you think the white men who run these corporations you’re critiquing really give a fuck about you dissing, fucking, fisting, choking white women?”
That is perhaps the saddest thing about my father’s frat nickname, even worse than its inherent misogyny and colorism: Despite its veneer of showy, chest-thumping masculinity, in reality it was bereft of any power at all. It was a put-on for him and his friends to joke about in order feel authoritative from within the confines of their small black college, safely away from white men with guns who would kill them were they to say such things in front of them, or, worse still, within earshot of their white daughters.
Tales of dalliances with white women were certainly bereft of power when Emmett Till tried them out to impress his Mississippi friends with his northern cosmopolitanism. Yes, his boasting prompted a violent rise from a small southern community, which is a certain kind of power. But in the end it was two white men who killed him, beat the case thanks to a jury of their white male peers, and then spoke openly about killing him with no repercussions whatsoever. That’s power
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source theawl.com
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Kanye and the confederate flag
K-K-K-anye West Has Gone South
By Zoe Spencer
I am compelled to create this blog in response to an email sent by a dear friend illustrating Kanye West’s latest antic. I am sitting in my bed all the way in Chengdu, China where I am on assignment as a Visiting Professor with the Chengdu American Institute for Study Abroad at Sichuan University.
Here I am in the middle of teaching courses in Race Relations, Urban Sociology, and Social Inequality, fighting to dispel the myths and stereotypes about my people- Black and Brown people, inner city and urban people- to not only American students, but Chinese students who have NEVER had contact with Black people at all EVER.
More importantly, I am here fighting to get a multi-racial and multi-ethnic group to understand the perils of racism in America, the struggles of the countless numbers of enslaved Ancestors who had generations of freedom and life stolen, and the detrimental effects that the totality of racism has had on the fiber of America and the American psyche. And then I open the email to find the picture of Kanye West rocking a “Trayvon Martin” hoodie underneath of a Confederate flag-adorned jacket…talking about he’s “reclaiming” some nuts. And for that moment, I stare, completely vexed…d**n…I pause and think about how I really feel. And this is it.
I find it completely appropriate that rapper Kanye West has chosen to utilize the Confederate flag as his latest symbol. As a revolutionary sistah, I celebrate seeing the tag displayed clearly on his shoulder so there will be no confusion about who he is and who and what he represents.
We can now identify him clearly as an enemy to “my people” and a continued disrespect to the Ancestors that gave him a voice in the very same manner that I have identified the countless Southern White boys who proudly display that same flag in the back windows of pick-up trucks, or tee shirts, hats, or even on the shoulders of white robes, as they’ve hollered, “go back to Africa n***er,” proudly out their driver’s seat windows. And while I would argue that this should be a sign for all, for a change, I am not worried about what others think because this time, I am clear.
I have long since given up on this counterfeit hip-hop, understanding that the major labels and its ruling class owners co-opted the art, the image, the message, and the artist long ago. Hip-hop, in all of its forms now serves to use Black faces, Black talent, Black voices, Black culture to “re-conjur” and validate historic stereotypes about Black people in order to invoke the hate, distrust, fear, and aggression against Black bodies that serves the purpose of stimulating the alienation and genocide of the race.
The violent images, deviant cultural values, misogynistic messages, and the denigration and minimization of Black women, their beauty, and their value to this Earth have been perpetuated through the lips, deeds, and lives of rap artists led by West himself. So, I am ecstatic that he has taken off the mask of Blackness and chosen the most prolific symbol of the self hate that stimulates his hate for my people.
To me, West, like other rappers, represents the “neo-Confederacy,” the new face of the KKK, the new slave of the recording industry who profits from promoting White male hate and exploitation of Black bodies. He carries out the agenda of those who no longer have to hide behind a hood in order to burn crosses in yards, throw fire bombs through church windows, rape and brutalize Black women, enslave, lynch or rather murder my people. They now pay him to promote the very exploitation that he claims to be a victim of. So, to Kanye West I say, “rock your Confederate flag symbol N***er! You are IN DEED the new slave.” The way in which you earn your living is the reason why the KKK will never have to throw on the robe and ride again.
………………………………………….
He’s right, we’ve never seen Michelle Obama’s bottom in a selfie: Kanye West claims Kim Kardashian is more influential than the First Lady
As Kanye West statements go, it’s probably one of his most absurd.
The lovestruck rapper talked up fiancee Kim Kardashian in a new interview in which he claimed the reality star is more influential in terms of style than the First Lady Of The United States Michelle Obama.
He told Ryan Seacrest: ‘There’s no way Kim Kardashian shouldn’t be on the cover of Vogue.
‘She’s like the most intriguing woman right now. She’s got Barbara Walters calling her like everyday,’ he said.
And bizarrely he claimed the reason Kim was more influential that Michelle Obama, was because the First Lady could not share a bikini pic like Kim’s recent bottom-baring pose in a white swimsuit.
‘No one is looking at what [Barack Obama] is wearing. Michelle Obama cannot Instagram a [bikini] pic like what my girl Instagrammed the other day.’
On that point he is right, as we’ve never seen the First Lady’s bottom in a selfie.
While Michelle Obama will clearly not want to take on that challenge, it seems Kanye is still fuming at Kim being persistently overlooked by his friend Anna Wintour for a Vogue covershoot.
The Vogue editrice is a big fan of Michelle Obama, who has been pictured on the cover twice.
Vogue describe Mrs. Obama’s style as ‘bold and unapologetic.’
And she is widely seen as a champion for American fashion designers, bringing new designers like Jason Wu into the fashion spotlight.
‘Her approach to dressing has earned her a reputation as something of a fashion maverick- particularly in Washington, D.C., where women have traditionally valued conformity over individuality.’
She herself simply says: ‘Women should wear whatever makes them feel good about themselves.’
And while Kim has certainly become something of a cultural phenomenon in recent years, it seems that her influence has not extended to the ivory towers of the fashion bible.
Kanye revealed he was delighted when Kim was chosen to cover CR Fashion Book, the new publication by Former French Vogue editor Carine Roitfe.
‘Carine Roitfeld supports my girl. That’s a breakthrough,’ he explained. ‘There’s a wall of classism that we are breaking through.’
Maybe the memo hasn’t reached Anna Wintour just yet.
from the mailonline
………………………………………
Lol @classism, when Kim was born into a multimillion dollar family. And lol @ an African American first lady who doesn’t twerk or post pictures of a near naked backside, on a website, not being a positive. And lol @ an African American woman getting shine on the cover of Vogue and that not being more of a breakthrough in Kanye’s eyes, to a Caucasian multimillionairess famous for p0rn. Lmao! Someone give me some anticoon spray and now!
I’m don’t have any problems with interracial dating, but the c00nery that is sometimes attached to it takes some adjusting to get used to it.
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+the code switching on “the Kris show.” LMAO!
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@jefe,
From way up thread, your subway analogy was spot on. Ha!
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^^^
*but are often quick to, or in agreement with those who chastise those who champion being with their own. Yes I do tend to defend brothas and sistas who champion their own against Black men and women who chastise them for doing this. And I keep my word at it.
@post on Kanye in moderation, from the confederate flag, to comparing “the beauty of his girl to the ugliness of the character precious,” to barking at Obama just because he made mere mention that success should not be measured by pop culture figures like Kim and Kanye, to implying Beyonce’s a sellout for being sponsored for her super bowl performance and Jay z for collaborating with Justin Timberlake, while his girlfriend is famous (besides p0rn) for nothing but endorsement deals, reality show exploitation, and while he’s collaborated with an artist like Katty Perry, and even though Beyonce and Jay z were the only ones who defended him and stuck by him when the world was treating him like he had gone on stage and literally drop kicked Taylor Swift in the back of her neck. And now, to talking down on Michelle Obama to exalt Kim? It’s not the hypocrisy and the ego, but the level of c00nery, I know I will never buy anymore of Kanye’s releases or support anything he’s involved with, ever again. Word is born.
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@maxine,
I’m not sure where you live or where you’re from but in the US White men are major haters when it comes to Black women. I was not merely talking about preferring their own. Most people prefer their own race. Why would I care about that? Why in God’s name would I care if White men prefer white women or whomever as that’s only natural. I am talking about White men hating on and wanting black women to be shunned and single and also to feel unwanted.
I have been in situations were there was a white male/black woman couple and a nearby White jerk would show little subtle signs like they wish I didn’t see it and they wish it wasn’t occurring.
Also, here in the US, White men want to homosexualize black women and marginalize black women. Where I work, even though there are black males, the White males keep coming at me as if I should feel unwanted since I’m a black woman. Their tactic at racism is to try to get black men to not want black women. They are also angry when two black people are friendly with each other period on the job, especially if it’s two black people of the opposite sex.
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Also, black women and many black celebrities WOMEN are with white men as well, why are some of the black women posters focused on whom Black men date?
Black women are also marrying IR, I wouldn’t mind marrying IR myself with a member of another minority group. Why are some attacking black men and not including white-washing or white seeking Black women.
Nothing is wrong with IR dating at all. Blacks just need to marry more.
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Bingo. White men often are major haters. We are merely trying to live our lives while whether out or on the job or in school they can’t keep their minds off of wanting to hurt us!. White women as well!
————————————————-
Re:
MsTooGood4yall
I don’t think ppl think its racist for white males to prefer white women, or anybody to prefer their own for that matter. What is racist is when ppl feel the need to compare two ppl and make fun of the other person. There have been black women on here and other blogs that have said how some white men will say they are ugly in front of their white girlfriend or Asian girlfriend to make the black women feel uncomfortable and so the white males girlfriend feels superior. I’ve not experienced this but I don’t doubt that it happens, just like some black couples say how some white ppl will stare at them or be rude to them. During jim crow it was illegal for black couple to even kiss or show affection in public, now that goes beyond just preferring your own but being offended to see someone different from u being loved or showing love while u get to is racist.
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Have any of you quoting the stats on Black men dating & marrying out more ever considered the pressures and issues Black men face on the job and in everyday white supremacist society?
We black women are getting it to but to have the pressure constantly looming over you by men (white) whom are running everything working their hardest and showing every mind that they don’t want you to be able to have a job to be able to take care of your family, want you to prefer their white women over your own because blacks, especially black men shouldn’t desire black because it makes whites uncomfortable *eye roll*, that your very being is a threat to the supposed superior ( the racists ones believe this) white male?
puhlease
From what I’ve seen since in corporate America I’m surprised Black men can even find black women attractive, let alone marry us, given all the pressures they are facing and here in the US White men wanting to homo-sexualize them.
there’s alot of hate and sickness aimed at black men, and if over 80% are with black women, let’s not sit here and acting like we are in a state of emergency in terms of black men dating out just yet.
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@MsTooGood4Yall,
A person like an Asian or Hispanic would think this ludacris, insane and paranoid. however, it’ such a sick behavior .I cannot tell you how white men act as if black women shouldn’t be wanted or feel wanted. Right in front of my face. Meanwhile all around us are black women whom are married with kids or couples up and I’m sitting there baffled daily as to the white people’s behavior. How can you be angry when people find their own race attractive unless you are not PSYCHOTIC?
I wouldn’t be surprised if this went on during Jim Crow, because whites in 2013 act like we shouldn’t even talk to each other. it’s SICK! But they like being like that and I can’t understand it. All I can chalk it down to in terms of racist whites is EVILNESS!
——
Re:
“During jim crow it was illegal for black couple to even kiss or show affection in public, now that goes beyond just preferring your own but being offended to see someone different from u being loved or showing love while u get to is racist.”
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I wonder if White people do the same to Asians and other races or not. Act as if they are offended when they are around each other or want to date each other. I guess I will have to ask!
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@Alicia
I’ve already addressed this thing you do where you seem to allude to the idea that Black men have it harder than Black women waaay up on this thread, so I won’t cover that again.
Secondly, Black men are not mindless robots who can’t think for themselves. There’s a lot of propaganda that suggests Black women should not embrace Black men, but I personally know most of the Black women I’ve met, don’t absorb that rubbish. Black men are just as capable of doing the same, for crying out loud.
Thirdly, not a single woman here has attacked Black men marrying out, instead we have been defending ourselves from being called bdwnchs for ever pursuing interracial relationships, by pointing out the fact that Black men have exceeded all male groups in marrying out.
Lastly, just because you’ve met some wackos in your life, does not mean it is a measure of the White male collective and some elaborate plan to ruin Black women in their day to day lives. That idea is completely ridiculous.
You keep attacking Black women on this blog for no reason at all. It’s pretty irritating when you come in and start talking down to Black women and patronising us, when we’re defending ourselves from degrading language and suggestions, while conveniently skipping over offensive comments being thrown at Black women first. Who, by the way, marry out the least, so your comparison is like a fart in rain and a strong wind. It’s getting absolutely infuriating. This is the first time someone has royally p’d me off on this blog.
From now on, I think I’m just gonna skip past your posts.
Peace.
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I don’t know why people act as if black men are the only victims, it is like oh but black men face xyz and oh well about black women. Yes we know black males face issues on the job so do black women, black women have been fired for having natural hair or not hired because of our names. Its fine to talk about what black men face but to just ignore what black women face is pure craziness. Black women have pressure we deal with too but the difference is if we talk about it or have a bad day we are being an angry black woman. No as black women we shouldn’t be shocked and grateful if black men marry us. Our ancestors were not always allowed to get married but they found a way to do it, so plz save the excuses of saying oh black men can’t do this because of xyz. They have done so in the past and it is pathetic to talk about black men as if they are kids and not men. Because trust and believe if a black male kills somebody or does something illegal he can’t say oh u know judge i’m a victim. This person gave me a gun but instead of refusing i took it and used it. that makes no sense its the same thing with this if whites treat them a certain way or look a certain way when they are with black women so what. Black men have been dating who they wanted and not always allowing white males to interfere, they were even being with white women at a time when it wasn’t allowed and death was a huge possibility. So spare me the bs of oh they get looked at funny or are talked about so they can’t be with black women.
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“From what I’ve seen since in corporate America I’m surprised Black men can even find black women attractive, let alone marry us, given all the pressures they are facing and here in the US”
ok wtf, Again making excuses just because ppl at work say something or give the side eye don’t mean they have to know who u date. I don’t hear ppl saying oh black men if u marry or date or find a black woman attractive we will fire ur arse. They may have something to say but come one I’ve never heard of someone being fired for that. I can see if the guy is gay and not wanting ppl to know so he can keep his job but even a lot of them don’t hide it. So why is it oh black men can’t marry black women because of the pressure but they were under a whole lot more pressure during slavery and jim crow and could have things happen to them if they were caught with a white woman or showing affection to black women yet against all that they still managed to love who they wanted so cut the bs.
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“why are some of the black women posters focused on whom Black men date?”
I see most are talking about why the focus is on black women and white men or who is more loyal i don’t really see ppl saying oh this black man is dating so and so. I see more comments about black women beware of this other man and about loyalty and stats concerning marriage rate than anything. The question should be why are people focused on who black women date but not a peep out of these same ppl on the death of a black woman. The question should be why are ppl so focused on a small percent of black women that date out but don’t actually care about the well being of black women just who we are screwing. Why is there not a peep out of the women that push white men on the renish McBride thread? why is there not a peep out of the black males that are so vocal about black women being with white men on the renisha McBride thread?
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“From what I’ve seen since in corporate America I’m surprised Black men can even find black women attractive, let alone marry us, given all the pressures they are facing ….
there’s alot of hate and sickness aimed at black men, and if over 80% are with black women, let’s not sit here and acting like we are in a state of emergency in terms of black men dating out just yet.”
***************
Alicia,
Not only do I agree with your narrative, which reads like a breath of fresh air, I wish your (different) voice of reason was heard back when a certain black poster – JORBIA – was running amok in the comment section, hurling insults and lies at black men here and offline because, according to her failed reasoning/logic, ALL successful black men want white wives – and other (polite, but) disingenuous negative nonsense aimed at black males. She was in love with and engaged to a white male.
She finally left because someone here offended her… Nah, it wasn’t me. LOL
Anyway, thanks for saying what apparently needs steady repeating around here. Most black men are overwhelmingly WITH black women!
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Naw, that was me who posted those stats, along with taking the time to type of census data vindicating Black men, and reports vindicating the African American community, but I’ll go ahead and let that credit slide to Alicia. Lmao
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“Matari:
Not only do I agree with your narrative, which reads like a breath of fresh air, I wish your (different) voice of reason was heard back when a certain black poster – JORBIA – was running amok in the comment section, hurling insults and lies at black men here and offline because, according to her failed reasoning/logic, ALL successful black men want white wives – and other (polite, but) disingenuous negative nonsense aimed at black males. She was in love with and engaged to a white male.”
+1 brotha! lmao @ running a muck. ^_^
any who, I’m on a White Female stalker movie weekend, kick.
I watched “Chloe” and “The crush” with Alicia silver stone, Last night.
I’m going to watch “Single White Female” and “obsessed” with Idris Elba and beyonce, tonight.
These movies, reveal the truth of how they really are in relaity and not just sweet and innocent! @> : o O ) >
The white female brand of white supremacy! @ : o D ) >
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“No as black women we shouldn’t be shocked and grateful if black men marry us. Our ancestors were not always allowed to get married but they found a way to do it, so plz save the excuses of saying oh black men can’t do this because of xyz. They have done so in the past and it is pathetic to talk about black men as if they are kids and not men.”
_ _ _
Excellent observations, mstoogood4yall!
Coddling a grown man like he’s a hothouse flower is in no way empowering. If he’s at all receptive to such a tactic, it will probably weaken him rather than strengthen him in dealing with life and his responsibilities as a man.
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Sondis
The Roommate, another white chick flick “scurred” me away from watching many other white female flicks, lol, but maybe I can muster up enuff bravado to watch some of the scary movies (lol) you mentioned.. except for Obsessed which I’ve already seen.
Sweet and Innocent? Hmph … lol
That’s a line that reminds me of another (old) flick – Hangin’ With The HomeBoys.
(Definitely NOT a white chick flick.)
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Matari:
“Sweet and Innocent? Hmph … lol
That’s a line that reminds me of another (old) flick – Hangin’ With The HomeBoys.
(Definitely NOT a white chick flick.)”
lmao!
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@misstoogoodforyall
And the thing is, racism doesn’t work that way for the average White man (or White person) anymore. Out and out White supremacist racism, is not prevalent in the majority of White people, today. Instead, it has been replaced with the idea of superiority and the belief in stereotypes as it pertains to the Black community, which displays itself in passive aggression, in terms of superiority. And, in terms of stereotypes: fear, and distrust. If you ask the average White person if they’re racist, they’ll flat out deny it, but will quickly label Blacks racist for talking about their oppressions, because it’s an aversion to the idea that the quality of life for Blacks is serious enough that they would feel it should take precedence over their casual conversational comfort. That’s the superiority, that’s the passive aggression. It’s social inflections, subtle behaviors that stem from a very apparent distance between the two being pronounced by Whites. Sometimes these announcements are bold, sometimes the ignorance is moderately tangible, oftentimes, it’s subtle.
The average White man is not gathering with his cohorts around a cauldron thinking up how they can ruin the romantic lives of Black women, while wearing pointy hats, with a broomstick parked out front as a means of transportation. It doesn’t work like that anymore. White supremacism is systematic now, it’s the White guys behind the media; the average White guy is not concerned with creating negative images of Black women and imposing them on Black men to brainwash them.
It’s systems like the prison industrial complex, and, once again, the average White guy is not trying to lock up every Black man he see’s, it’s the lawmakers, the power players behind bringing the policies into effect.
The most severe forms of racism come from the very top, and the very bottom. That is, the rich who are generally completely divorced from minorities, by way of spending most of their lives in a very White world. These guys reinforce White supremacy by continually perpetuating the empowerment of their own, through subliminal messaging, and social favoritism. But where is gets even more sinister is the fact that the virtue of Whiteness is often predicated on Black being its antithesis.
Then you have the bottom. Your out and out White supremacists: these are your rednecks, your confederate flag totting entities. These are usually White narratives from the working class with very little power.
The idea that White men are collectively championing Black men taking all their women is far off, imo. White people get uncomfortable at the site of healthy Black love because it compromises their neat stereotypes of Black people, and, as a result, shatters the illusion of superiority. So when, for example, Black men/White women relationships, are held up as the gold standard, it’s only done so because it reinforces a display of superiority through culture and media. But, in truth, it’s highly unlikely that a White man sitting in a car with his White wife is gonna spot a Black man/Black woman couple, walking by, and come charging out, berating the couple, and demanding the Black man get away from the Black woman, and take his wife/sister/WW friend, because he can’t stand the sight of a Black man/Black woman couple. “Get away from that Black woman, please, I’ll drive, just take the White woman to the backseat and do it quickly, put my mind as ease.” Come on, that’s not gonna happen.
Black male stereotypical images, like that of the 50 cent variety, are put on a pedestal as entertainment for Whites, but only for a short time. The stereotype reinforces superiority, while providing entertainment. But, still, your upper middleclass Black man, married to a Black woman, living the American “white picket fence” dream, (your Denzel Washingtons, your Samuel L Jacksons, your Will Smiths, your Forest Whitakers), in the long run, become less threatening to White people because they’re mirrors of ideal White society, anyway. Do I think it takes a lot longer for this variety to breakthrough? Yes, your 50 cents will be given the spotlight a lot quicker, as sensational, stereotypical entertainment, fitting the White idea of Blackness, and supporting their superiority. But, in the end, the latter variety sustains a lot longer, simply because it’s not threatening. It’s allowed in
White women are entering the workforce and obtaining high positions quickly, but they too are not hiring Black men. Because it’s not a gender thing with the system of White racism, it’s subtle inflections in high places and a sense of superiority coupled with distrust. I maintain, that your average White guy is not staying up at night tossing and turning thinking of a way to disrupt every Black woman and Black man relationship he comes across that day. It just doesn’t work that way for the majority.
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^^^ My post before the last one (hate typos).
*type up census data vindicating Black men
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@ ebonymonroe
I agree I never said they are out there separating black men and women. it is more covert now, it is the ones that control the media and the ones that get brainwashed by it that are the issue. now it seems to be more about reinforcing those stereotypes they created about blacks during jim crow and slavery. Yes when they see black ppl that are none of those things it does make them feel a certain way.
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Just finished watching, “single white female” that white woman was a a nut!
I dunno if she was a lesbian or just obsessed with the thought of having a sister. Either way, it’s sick and twisted. -_-
Watching “single white female 2”, now. ^_^
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@misstoogoodforyall
I know you’ve never said that, babygirl. I’m just expanding on why I why I have a disagree with the extreme view that Alicia presented, regarding the way racism is carried out (by White men), in our time, now.
Side note: @“Single white female.” When I think of that movie, all I can think of is that fly mushroom Halle Berry early 90’s haircut. Oh, and those shoes, with the chrome dagger stiletto heels, I believe they were of the house of Tom Ford, inspired by the high powered 80’s-early-90’s era of femininity; man, I’ve been searching for those pumps forever, they would go perfectly with an Envogue “Hold on” mini black spandex dress. I can’t find those vintage joints anywhere.
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^^^
*why I disagree with the extreme view
Side note: Typos, typos galore. I’m definitely tired, going to unwind and go to bed.
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^ ok I see, well good night
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+
“The worst of white folks don’t come with hoods or ropes or shaved heads, as he initially believed; they come with the conviction that their privilege as white people is immutable. ”
—-Kiese Laymon
Goodnight.
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Peanut, no need to apologise , I was harsh myself, at the frustration of perceived implications of what an interracial couple ought to do…
You are absolutly correct white people dont know what it is like to be black, but , I suggest to you , there are huge differances to the degrees of ” dont know what it is like to be black’. and my connection to the black community goes much deeper than my relationships with black women…I defend the autonomous choices of black men and women equaly…Ive admired black men and women equaly, and have been influenced by both black men and women .
I dont think I ever said that there arnt wrong choices being made in interracial relationships..I dont think I ever denied that colorisation choices, and desires to move up in the white world didnt exist in some black people’s desicians, or that some white people got involved for their sexual fanticies
I would never say I know how you think or feel, but you are assuming a lot about the depth of the intimicy with the women Ive been with and what I could know or not know how they feel. In my case, because I cant say that is how it goes down for everyone, my mate may not be saying something , but, that doesnt mean i cant perceive what she is seeing underneath..or cant perceive she is not expressing how she really feels…being tuned into what is not being said is as important as what is actualy said…that goes for short term relationships too
I really am not as concerned about what people say about me here , as , the steryotypes and generalisations and put downs of black men and women who have made desicians to have interracial relationships…and ,Im not talking about the media spectacle of kayne West, which does seem bizarre to say the least and that is why I dont use celebrities as baraometers for what black people in an interracial relationship with a white person could mean, all I can say is, that is his personal trajectory
I totaly support getting on the table all the pitfalls and potential signals to be on the watch for in white racism..principly, if that person cant relate to you culturaly
Not knowing the history and origins of some of the rhetoric passed off on here, is just blatent truth…when I, who admit the black American political trajectory is not my forte, am the one who can bring in the actual proof to the origins of much of the rhetoric you see bandied about on here, that has stretched out thread after thread after thread, you can only conclude, people dont even know the origins of the things they are saying…they dont really know where and in what context they came from..Peanut, I never said you dont know about your anceater’s past, i said ive been with black women who knew more…my first wife was from the hard core projects of the now defunct Robert Taylor projects from the south side of Chicago…its no insult to you that I say she knew more about her past, she was just an extremly dynamic woman, who was very knowledgable, acting in Loraine hansberry plays at the goodman theater, was freinds with jackie wright , a notable black theater force in Chicago, ..I didnt mean that as a put down , but to try to convey to you that there are black people who can be in interracial relationships with white people and be very politicly aware and knowledgable of white racism and its history..and i see you ackowledge that
bottom line, Peanut, Im all for you finding youself and your place in this world , and how to overcome the obstacles you face as a black woman..and i want to say, I was wrong about what you can represent for other black women..your blog is a testament to the fact you can influence and have an affect in this world…i apologise for implying anything differantly
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yeah, Ks, well jefe is just flustered because I keep busting his bubble when he goes off track of the very good information he can bring in on the asian experiance with white racism in America…I mean he does have serious holes about his notions on black culture, thinking Im hiding behind my wife and son to call him on bs, and seeing through his “joke’ thought experiment…that he doesnt have the good sence to admit its in bad taste
msgood, i do think the black women shot in Detroit was exrtremly horrible and a deep seated problem white people need to talk about, and I did comment over there…and I still think individual dating choices are up to those people…there is a huge group of white people, lots of them the fox news dolts,who are the problem, and should be scrutinised at all costs, and may never change…but , that doesnt eliminate the possibility a black person and white person couldnt find a meaningful relationship together..and it happens all the time, there are millions of black and white relationships that work out…you would never guess that reading the towering infernos of threads on anti interracial sex that proliferate all over
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by the way, Peanut, I value our discusion, disagreements and all…how are we ever going to get things out on the table?
I sometimes wonder if black Americans and white Americans can actualy look at each other in the eyes and have an honest converstaion about us…and I blame white people first and formost, but there has been new lanes of asphault put on the 10 lane mac truck highway of racial division in america coming from all sides
I lament this, and value any real communication we can have about it
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What
the hell…
does that have to do with IR marriage?
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“mstoogood4yall,
I thought this thread was about interracial relationships not just black women interracial, I thought there was a thread just specifically talking about black women and white men. But I guess black women with other men even if it is a small percent is somehow the center of it all. I would’ve thought based on the numbers we’d be talking about Asian women and white men or white men other women or white women other men.”
Linda says,
very true, this thread shouldn’t just focus on black women.
So in the spirit of that sentiment, I want to focus on another stereotype about Interracial couples — black men with basic or fat/unattractive looking white women
if you go by the media, it’s like black men have no standards when it comes to white women.
one of my cousins in London peeped me into a new TV show, My Crazy New Jamaican Life, about 2 white British women who are into the Jamaican dancehall scene — these chicks look “sub-par” at best — just having these 2 as the focus of the TV show, makes a mockery out of Jamaican standards.
We send some of the most beautiful black and brown women to global beauty pageants — and the British media wants to hold up these 2 slags a spokes people to showcase a small part of Jamaican culture — totally embarrassing!
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/my-crazy-new-jamaican-life
I can’t stand the media for always wanting to showcase the white women “kick and goes” instead of the “Mercedes” that are with black men —
I know somewhere in the world, black men are dating attractive white women– but it’s very hard to get that impression from watching television.
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Rofl wtf, I can’t watch the vid linda but dang I can already see what its about just looking at the pic and description alone. They stereotype that black males just get the out cast white women is true for some and not true for others, I’ve seen some with an attractive white women and others well not so much. Idk it seems they love showing unattractive white women from the uk like susan boyle, I don’t know it seems here I don’t really see too many attractive uk ppl on tv.
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Linda, I have to laugh because I know white women like this! They love all that hard-core black man sex fantasy, as well as the brown babies fantasy as well as the bashment scene, too.
(Bashment – reggae parties and club-scene, low-income, erotic and stylish…)
This series exploits one aspect of a [sub]culture that is highly sexualized, so that makes for decent viewing figures — titillation and “scandal”! Lol!
Hilarious but not representative of Jamaica or Jamaicans.
This focus on one scene only magnifies a small aspect of a small country’s culture and the programme seems to say it is the ordinary The Way of Life….
It is not.
**************************************************************
We could talk about IRRs that don’t include white people, there have been many threads discussing the finest points over and over and over again.
This forum is obviously isn’t the place to discuss IRRs between racialized peoples.
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@KS @Ebonymonroe
Abagond deleted my last post to you in the Open Thread.
Anyway back to this “loyalty” discussion.
Yes, financial & criminal status of BM, white supremacy, & (BW mating habits) all play a role on the marriage rate collectively.
But on an individual level, what is keeping the average BW from being married WHO WANTS TO BE married?
Because now it comes down to a matter of values & how bad you want it?
It is obvious that BW do not want to be married that badly. Which means that @MsTooGood4Yall point about BM not wifing BW up is MOOT.
Cause if BW wanted to be married, they would make the necessary sacrifices & yes, there are enough MARRIAGE minded men in the world to go around. They just won’t come in the attractive package you come to expect.
As far as the IR marriage rate in America for BW. Black women collectively have sized up their scenario & overwhelming decided up until this point, that dating IR is not the best move for them.
If it was, and if that attitude changes, the IR rate will shoot up for BW.
Because even tho BW outnumber BM in America.
If they are willing to make the necessary sacrifices, there are Non-BM who would happily wife them up.
Good Day
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“Bulanik,
We could talk about IRRs that don’t include white people, there have been many threads discussing the finest points over and over and over again
This forum is obviously isn’t the place to discuss IRRs between racialized peoples.”
Linda says,
Actually Bulanik , as mstoogood4yall had pointed out, this is the best place to discuss it but we’ve all been led astray into the bw/wm scenario.
As far as I can see, when an brown, Indian or Chinese man marries a black woman — they marry a smart, well-educated black woman — one who has her stuff together and going places — that’s what I’ve observed with my family and friends (both in America and in Jamaica)
Even though times have changed, I would warn black American women about marrying a non-white man whose family is from a different country (Caribbean, Latino, Indian, Chinese) without first spending time with his family — because you are also marrying into the family and especially with Latinos, very family-oriented and all in your business.
Even though you are marrying the man and not his family, If you get a man whose mother wanted her son to marry “up” (aka white), she could make your life miserable — because depending on the country, these non-white families carry their own prejudices and stereotypes about black people – and aren’t shy in expressing them– so the black woman can see from jump, if this man is worth the headache to put up with his not-so subtle mama.
it seems to me, in my opinion, that black women have to be “exceptional” in order to be accepted (where mama stops complaining and starts bragging about her daughter-in-law who is a doctor); whereas, a white woman can be basic, less educated, and doesn’t have to work as hard to be accepted.
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Huh I never said black men aren’t marrying black women I never even said anything about that. unless u are talking about somebody else as I know it is up to both ppl to decide if marriage is right for them and some black women don’t want marriage we are not a monolith. I was only trying to point out that if black ppl want to be together we can white ppl aren’t out there in full force separating us and selling us off to different states like they did during slavery.
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@ Linda. I’m not under the impression that there is interest in relationships between racialized peoples or their mixed-ethnic families here, hence my reservations to talk about the subject. Perhaps this is the reason in my growing non-interest in discussions about white men and white women and their IRRs.
Yes, what you say about black and brown women entering relationships and families in with a man who is considered non-white. If a black or brown woman marries, say an *Asian man, that woman also marries his family and their culture, and yes, the family DOES hold that woman to exceptionally high standards. The white woman has the social capital of her whiteness. She doesn’t have to do anything to earn her “position”. I have seen, for example, Asian men who will “stoop low” and “scrape the barrel” of white womanhood to achieve one, comparison.
There are a number of sweeping generalizations I shall make to make my point.
A woman who is not white has to be very “high quality” to uplift her man’s family-honour, and add to their social capital if not their general quality of life. That woman is put through the ringer. The eyes — and tongue — of judgment are unrelenting and sharp. She must be prepared to become family property.
This woman not only has to be special and have powerful ambition, she has to set a standard as wife, mother, professional, housekeeper, cook, student: beauty and intelligence and educated alone is not going to cut it.
That is a given!
But if she passes through the rings of fire, the pride the family will take in that woman is also high-grade. They will protect, and brag of her, like a treasure.
It is not that way all the time, though. I have seen black women in particular, refuse the overtures of very good Asian men because they simply cannot imagine that an Asian man (!) could not only find them attractive, but be serious and sincere in their intentions. Why? It seems these individual women could only “understand” black men or white men, as men, as blacks, as whites — but Asians simply confused them. Perhaps they thought it was “unthinkable” for them to marry or have an Asian as a lover? I have my theories about that, but I never got to the bottom of those reservations and prejudices.
(By *Asian, I am speaking of Chinese, Indian, and Turkish families. The ways among Sephardi Jews were also similar.)
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@Linda& Bulanik: You two ladies tied it up in a nice neat bow and and signed sealed and delivered it, as far as I am concerned about this thread topic.
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@ Alicia
Oh ok,it’s an obvious one but I think it’s just how white men view black women,the majority see black women somewhat as alien to them,they don,t see black women with an attractive eye because the ideal beauty of a slim/fine features/blonde hair and blue eyes is the opposite to what a black women generally looks like,so they treat black women with contempt,
I see it in the UK all the time
I don’t know how bad things are in the USA but it’s a common display of behaviour to black females in fact black people,it’s so odd because if a beautiful white women walks in a room,a black man notices her beauty but if a beautiful black women walks into a room the only thing that is noticed from certain white guys is her color,for whatever reason I would say white women are more tolerant out of the two
Wish you well with the job.
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@Ebonymonroe
I think that no matter where you are in the world if it’s a cosmopolitan country,black people will loose out because we are the lesser population in terms of the Asian and white etc have a much larger demographic so with people dating interracial there was always the male or the female that would come of worse,
USA has a larger population of blacks so there will be more black relationships but that won’t always be the case because as one group wants to date out another doesn’t,the group that dates out has more dating options-his own or not his own, He can choose either,the group that chooses not to date out will almost be single at some point or be forced to dating others as there will not be enough black suitors to go around,this has certainly become the case in UK where black men have more dating options because he puts himself out there,where certain black women are reluctant however as you said other black women are happy to date non black men
I seriously have not visibly seen black women and Asian men relationships,it’s there but I have not come across it,in Uk we don’t have this influx of different communities like USA or indeed it’s a minority but not one that can be judged on for interracial relationships.
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I just want to point out not all white men view black women this way but it’s a feeling most black women can relate to.
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Maxine said:
Fair enough.
In the past, though, I have heard that SAID, and then, when I pointed examples out to the (black) individuals who believed the above about these IRRs, they then “Oh, yeh, I never noticed…”
Imo, I think among many black people, there is a blind spot about it, overlooking it when there are black and Asian couples and their black+Asian mixed-race children right in front of them.
It is almost as though only IRRs with white people are the only ones which are visible.
In my experience, there are varieties of ethnic communities in the UK where people end up mixing, but by and large it’s only the couples that combine white and black that make the news…
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contd, I believe it was always my impression that IRRs between racialized people in white societies were supposed to stand out because the theory goes they are so unusual , but in practice, it was the opposite — they were ignored and considered practically invisible.
I have often seen mixed Asian couple — usually the woman is East Asian, and her husband South Asian:
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8geuuZPIR1rcjteko1_500.jpg)
Here’s a couple from England, the actor Adrian Lester and his wife Lolita Chakrabarti:
(http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.standard.co.uk/incoming/article8306350.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/AN10510067Adrian-Lester-and.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.standard.co.uk/goingout/theatre/evening-standard-theatre-awards-adrian-lester-and-his-writer-wife-lolita-chakrabarti-shortlisted-8306478.html&h=413&w=620&sz=32&tbnid=sv88Dls3rRN51M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__Osl-hv5hn4zevfmUEYzxPc5muDw=&docid=yu23Hg5QUOIiQM&sa=X&ei=yxOAUo3KKoqshQeEpoHQDw&ved=0CDsQ9QEwAg)
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bulanik those are some handsome south Asian men.
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@Bulanik
Just another example of confirmation bias.
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@ks
ks said
“Sure we can and, knowing us, we probably will. It might be a tad…contentious…at times but we can make it happen.
The reason I find the, for lack of better words, marry out, issue so tiresome is that its a distraction that usually dissolves into a blame game shouting match. Yeah it would be great if the marry out rates were equal or maybe none though the latter is not fair to individuals (or the concept of individual love) and pretty unrealistic and, in the end, won’t happen.
Even if it did, it wouldn’t move the needle much so long as what’s happening to young black men continues to happen. If society continues to make generations of them essentially and functionally “non-persons or citizens” via what I talked about earlier then the future is indeed gloomy and your defeatism will be well founded.”
…………………………………………………………………….
I hadn’t mentioned the disparity since my debate with Adonis until you said the following. . .
……………………………………………………………………..
ks said
“More seriously, in terms of interracial dating, the strong race man stereotype that you’re busting on is just as silly as the notion that BW are not dating out because of some heroic race loyalty. Where’s not dealing with sinners vs saints here.”
……………………………………………………………………
After I asked
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Ebonymonroe said
“@My Black people
Let me ask you a question that came to me the other day. Why is it when White people, (men and women), have bad relationships with each other, the conclusion is, “my ex was of bad character,” or, “I’ve had bad luck with relationships thus far,” but, with the Black community, when Black men or women have had bad experiences in relationships with one another, the popular conclusion usually drawn is, “Black women are bad” or “Black men are no good?” This common lack of critical thinking when applied to ourselves has increasingly perplexed me. Is it that, when searching for answers after bad relationships, because of pervasive propaganda concerning Black men and women, we absorb this ideology, and, ultimately, find closure in this being the answer to our problems?
I find the lack of critical thinking to be excessively air headed, but I don’t like to think of many of my people as innately air headed.
Do Asian women do this concerning Asian men, or is this something that is completely unique to the Black community?”
…………………………………………………………………………
I wasn’t talking about the disparity when I asked that, it was just a general question. But, since I did touch on my theory of “loyalty” during my debate with Adonis, I felt it necessary to clarify my position on that when you brought it up.
As far as the whole thing being a distraction, I don’t know, man. As I said. . .
……………………………………………….
Ebonymonroe said
“I get what you’re saying. But, as you said, when we go beyond the issue of just “getting married,” there are a number of dimensions to it (in the Black community), that make it a multi-layered issue. There’s the backdrop of marriage rates all across the West, as well as the rise in divorce rates. And when it comes to the African American community, there’s the economic disadvantage, (which is actually the leading cause of divorce, in general). There’s the prison industrial complex, Black male mortality rate, and at this point, (dare I say it), the fact that Black women already greatly outnumber Black men, while Black men outdo all races of men in marrying out, which, ultimtely, can become another facet of the social, judicial, and economic climate, by adding to the disadvantage by heightening the sheer numbers game. When it comes to the issue of marriage, I definitely am in agreement that there are many issues at play, and many, which are issues that are being experienced by all races in the West, but are simply exasperated in an already disadvantaged group.”
……………………………………………………
Every point there, has “the blame game potential.”
1. The backdrop of marriage rates all across the West, as well as the rise in divorce rates. < Has the potential to be blamed on modern culture and "morality," and the changing definitions of our values.
2. The economic disadvantage. < White supremacy.
3. The prison industrial complex. < White supremacy.
4. Black male mortality rate. Could be pinned on all of the above, and blamed on, White supremacy.
5. Black women already greatly outnumber Black men. < Could be pinned out all of the above, and blamed on. . . White supremacy.
6. Dun dun dunnn. . . Black men outdo all races of men in marrying out.
These are all issues affecting Black marriage, some are more serious, some not so much. I'm sure Adonis would jump in here and bring up obesity rates in the African American community, or single Black mothers, so I won't say they're not potential issues. But I do know both the African American and Hispanic community is contending with obesity, which comes down to economics. As far as single Black mothers, we're both privy to the Tim Wise report (curtsey bows before "ks"), so I won't stay on that since things are improving, and God willing, will continue to do so.
I only mentioned that I do agree with the loyalty thing, like, once, but that one statement seems to have spiraled into more than one debate. I'll tell you my frustration as a Black women, to what seems to be a pretty level headed Black man. As soon as we get to number 6, people get uncomfortable and start tap dancing as though it's non existent, but it is. (Shrugs.) The only time I spoke on this before my debate with Adonis, was when I asked if the US rate of which Blacks don't marry each other, would match the UK's (where 50% of Black men marry out, and over 30% of Black women marry out) if racism was not as openly intense in the US. I was told "yes, probably." The truth is, many young Black women will tell you that issues of colourism, and self hate, and hatred towards Black women, is something we experience in our own communities, and often. And, even being a mixed girl, I've encountered too many instances where I came to find out my complexion was one of the major points of attraction to for a brotha, which is not something I will accept. It's not a mindset I would tolerate in a potential spouse and father.
Now, does this mean that my experiences, or the coinciding experiences of other Black women are a reflection of the majority? No, of course not, but it is there. I just find that a lot of brothas like to think that the Sotomayorians and the BWV types are extremely few and far between, no matter how mild the form. But that's not a reality in my experience. So, this too becomes another obstacle we're contending with as young Black women. Before some loony Black woman, or angry Black man jumps in and say "no, no, no, that doesn't exit." As I said, it doesn't mean my experiences, or the coinciding experiences of Black women, make it a reflection of the majority. But, it is there.
As far as institutional and systematic problems in the community, as a community, we have to be willing to start dealing with that and working towards undoing these unjust systems. But as far as (oftentimes) 1/4 of Black men in the US marrying out, while Black women seem to have reserved their mate selection for Black men, my only position on that, is that African American women have to start broadening their mate selection pool. If they would, the 75% married by 35, could bump right up, and could potentially see an improvement on 1/4 of Black women still not being married by their mid 30's. Of course, that doesn't take into account Black women who are members of the LBTG community, and those who simply don't want to get married.
This, is just my opinion.
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@Adonis
@KS said
“Abagond deleted my last post to you in the Open Thread.”
………………………………………….
Did you forget to put a link in parentheses, or did you take it too far? My guess is the former, since you mentioned something about a link. At this point, however, I think we might as well just agree to disagree.
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Adonis said
“Anyway back to this “loyalty” discussion.”
…………………………………………….
Uh oh.
…………………………………………………..
Adonis said
“Yes, financial & criminal status of BM, white supremacy, & (BW mating habits) all play a role on the marriage rate collectively.”
………………………………………………………
I agree with the financial and criminal justice system angels, but, as for the rest, as the Tim Wise report (that inspired Abagond’s Black illegitimacy post), shows, you have no point here, so it’s all ad hominem.
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Adonis said
“But on an individual level, what is keeping the average BW from being married WHO WANTS TO BE married?
Because now it comes down to a matter of values & how bad you want it?”
………………………………………………………………..
When all is said and done, I agree with this.
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Adonis said
“It is obvious that BW do not want to be married that badly.”
…………………………………………………………………..
Delusional and ad hominem. I’m in my early 20’s and I’m getting married, my elder sisters are both married, I grew up in the Pentecostal church, where almost every Black woman I knew was married. There were so many weddings that I grew to hate them. If I never have to be a bridesmaid again, another one would be too soon. The lovely poster “phoebeprunelle” who posts and writes here, is a married Black woman. Even Abagond is married to a Black woman. And, as “the Toldson and Mark’s study” shows, 75% of Black women are married by 35 in the States, along with that, on average, in a lifetime, 88% of Black men walk up the aisle with Black women. Where are you, in Compton, California, or something, where all you see is poor babymothers? Brotha, you really need to get out more.
…………………………………………..
Adonis said
“Which means that @MsTooGood4Yall point about BM not wifing BW up is MOOT.”
…………………………………………………………
As she said, she didn’t say that at all. She just said that your everyday White man is not standing around attacking your everyday Black man on the street when he goes to purchase an engagement ring, or on their wedding day. But this was a completely different conversation, and concerning something very separate to this one.
………………………………………………………………..
Adonis said
“Cause if BW wanted to be married, they would make the necessary sacrifices & yes, there are enough MARRIAGE minded men in the world to go around. They just won’t come in the attractive package you come to expect.”
………………………………………………………………..
75% of them are obviously more than attractive enough. 88% of Black men find one in a lifetime, and White men and Asian men, are increasingly finding the chocolate pudding to be just as fine as Bill Cosby.
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Adonis said
“As far as the IR marriage rate in America for BW. Black women collectively have sized up their scenario & overwhelming decided up until this point, that dating IR is not the best move for them.
If it was, and if that attitude changes, the IR rate will shoot up for BW.
Because even tho BW outnumber BM in America.
If they are willing to make the necessary sacrifices, there are Non-BM who would happily wife them up.”
……………………………………………………………..
I agree.
……………………………………………………………….
Adonis said
“Good Day”
…………………………………………………………….
Wishing you the same.
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@Bulanik
I agree, growing up, my mum used to foster. And when me and my foster sister lived together (my foster sister is Sri Lankan), we used to go to Asian restaurants. I got just as much attention from Asian men as she did. Though Britain’s hierarchy is based on White supremacy, I’d say our hierarchy is based on classism just as much as race. I grew up in North West London, and lived in a predominantly Afro Caribbean and Asian community. The Asian guys dated Black girls as well as the Black guys, we grew up around each other. Both of my school sweethearts were blonde haired, blue eyed White guys. My experiences are very, very different to Maxine’s. I’ve never really encountered racism from White guys before, moreso White girls. In fact, at times, I’ve attracted only White guys as opposed to Black guys. And I wasn’t exactly of the Thandie Newton variety, moreso a copycat of Aaliyah when I was young, if you know what I mean. But of course, this is just my walk of life and everyone’s will be different. I also got a lot of attention from Middle Eastern guys, and European White guys.
My parents were of the Ronnie Scott’s Sade era, my mom’s Anglo (Irish) and (Sikh) Indian Trinidadian, my dad is Afro Jamaican Caribbean. All of my dad’s White male friends were with Black women and still are, that could be due to the bohemian London culture they were a part of. But, because of this, I was accustomed to seeing White man/Black woman couples growing up. Although I did not see it as often outside my parent’s circle of friends, but there were not a lot of White people in my neighbourhood, anyway.
I live in Luton, Bedfordshire, now, where I see a lot more Polish White guys with African women. But in London, I usually saw more Black men with White women in my day to day life than the other way around.
We’re very different in the UK, in my opinion. I lived in Atlanta for a short while, and there was hardly any interaction between Whites and Blacks, where I lived, in Stone mountain. But there was between Blacks and Hispanics. I didn’t even really come across White guys in Atlanta to know any. But I did date a Puetro Rican and an East Asian guy, both had grown up in areas where it was predominantly Hispanic and Black, and for the latter, Asian and Black.
I can’t find any statistics on interracial marriages between different minorities in the UK. Only Black and White. But if I could I’d post them.
On another note: adding to what Kiwi said. I came across a Black guy in the US, not too long ago, who spends some of the holidays without his White wife, because the family does not accept him. So she spends some of her time with her family, and some of her time with her African American husband. I think part of the reason for this disparity (now, I’m just theorizing here), Black women would not accept that as much. I think Black women would catch an attitude about a family like that, and are more paranoid about being used as s-x objects because of their race, whereas men don’t usually mind being used as s-x objects because where it is stigmatized for women, in is celebrated with men. So, I think the issue of family, acceptance, and being treated no different to a White woman, or a woman of the race of the man, would be quite important to Black women. My sister’s teenage sweetheart was Pakistani (if I remember rightly), but they knew they could never marry, because although the family wouldn’t mind him having her as a girlfriend, he would be cut off if he chose to wed her.
My grandfather actually cut off my mum for having a child with a Black man. My mum is half White Irish, and if she would have been with a White man, she told me her dad wouldn’t have minded that, but Black was not allowed. She refused to get an abortion, he cut her off, he returned to Trinidad and they never spoke from that point up to his passing. When you get into the South Asian community, it gets complicated. Honor k!llings, being cut out of the family inheritance and all of that.
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ah well, my lady aside, who definitely identifies as black, who does not wish to view ’12 years’ nor have me reveal any more information about her on-line, so ima have to bow out of that portion of this topic, well i will say the torrent for ’12 years’ is basically impossible to find at this time, and down at the ‘deli’ where such items, among others are purveyed, well i brought it up in discussion, being who i am,. and out of oh let’s say about 15 black people there, one other person, a female, voiced the opinion that she did not want to see that movie. it’s not a great sample size nor statistically accurate.
also, watching single white female 2 should be listed as a minor felony in and of itself and it is about as representative of white people as i was going to say watching ‘house of payne’ but that’s actually a pretty good show, more like listening to snoop doggy dogg or something.
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semi-cosign br, i got quite a lecture about how she knows her history, trust and believe.
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^^^
*no differently to White women, or a woman of the race of the man, would be quite important to Black women.
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@peanut re: renisha mcbride, i know her family is not coming here for condolences, especially from me, and there is really not much i could say to emilorate that experience it or negate it or help in anyway, as it is a deplorable thing, what could i possibly add, you know?
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“Ebonymonroe
And, even being a mixed girl, I’ve encountered too many instances where I came to find out my complexion was one of the major points of attraction to for a brotha, which is not something I will accept. It’s not a mindset I would tolerate in a potential spouse and father.”
Linda says,
This statement here holds too true and is also a slight issue that gets glossed over in black/brown communities.
For me, it went beyond complexion and extended to hair — they would talk about wanting their children to have the good “coolie” hair (sorry Bulanik, just paraphrasing) — talk about how they hate weave and want to run their hands through my head — that right there told me all I needed to know as far as if they were attracted to me for my looks or me as a person.
I’ll admit as a young woman, I enjoyed the attention I received from black men but there comes a point when being seen as an “exotical” loses its luster —
I think some black men who don’t want to cross the line all the way to white women, seek to date light skinned, mixed-race or Latina women as a way to say, “hey, I’m not selling out –she’s still black or at least she’s not white” — (like Cassie and P-Diddy)
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well, you are missrepresenting my point, v8, your point implies Im saying all black people dont know their history, which I am not saying at all, I said specific phrases made by anti interracial sex advocates with white people ,on this blog in the various innumerous threads , again , I repeat, things ive seen on this blog, and if you see the same arguments on other blogs , the same reasoning applies, are from origins that these specific anti interracial sex advocates , in general,dont know about, or know and hide these facts…
that is a long way from saying black people dont know their history
and, look, to the people tired of only black white talk, by all means put your statements on here , because im tired of the anti interracial sex with white people diologue thead after thread after thread , yet , if I dont put forth some answer to some of the stranger notions, they just go unchecked, unchallanged , and people start beleiving those things…id love to not feel i have to come in and answer these notions
the only thing I can say is, the elaborated discusions by people like Adonis and EbonyMonroe , and some other comments made with them, are a nesascary discusion for young black men and women to have, I have no objection to them putting all the things that need to be looked at on the table, and hashing it out in a complex elaborated discusion…they may not find the daylight in the heavy lifting they have to do, but, their discusion will surly lead the way to conclusions in thwe generation after them exactly because of their willingness to put it all on the table
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@br this was more or less in response to peanut’s line of logic that a black person no wanting to see something like ’12 years’ is necessarily in denial or ignorant of black history.
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@Linda
Yep, yep, yep. I’ve had that one plenty of times, too. I was once in a long term relationship, (with a Black man), until one day, during a conversation, he told me about an ex of his and how they’d ended up having an abortion because they weren’t ready. And then, straight after announcing that to me, he goes off on an hour long tangent about the value of us having a child together because of what its hair texture would be like. He started going on about a male friend who was the product of a Black woman and an Italian man, and what his hair texture looked like. I was pretty much in shocked that such a potentially traumatic situation only seemed to inspired in him the importance of hair texture and our hypothetical future child’s hair texture, in comparison to his ex who had had an abortion. Well, it goes without saying that that relationship was over. I once dated a guy who jokingly told to me that as fair as I am, he’d have to leave me for a Hispanic if one came along. Well, I left him for his Black Muslim friend the next day. That’s not the half of the things I’ve heard outside of guys I’ve actually dated.
I believe what you said to be true. There’s a stigma about being with a White woman, at least in the area I grew up in. In the Caribbean community 0ral s-x is frowned upon, and the stereotype was that White women were happy to do it to any guy, and not just their husbands, but in casual relationships, so it was shameful to “wife” and kiss one. (No this is not my opinion.) So cats always stuck to light skinned/mixed race girls, in my opinion, because it was the closest thing to a White woman without being stigmatized for the stereotype that was applied to them.
Side note: My mum hates the term “coolie,” too. I didn’t even know it was bad until she told me the other day. (Face. . . palm.)
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@Peanut
Lol. No, it wasn’t a Sri Lankan restaurant, it was just a standard South Asian restaurant.
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@Abagond
Regarding that article on Kanye West I posted, I am so, so sorry for the language. I had read it a little while ago, thought of it during this thread, and just copied it and pasted it. I hadn’t read it in a minute. Had I, I wouldn’t have edited the language. I do apologize, I know it is important that people go by decent etiquette on your blog. I’ll be sure to read through articles I post and make any necessary edits in future.
Just adding on to the pieces I posted on Madonna behavior, with the Spin article, and her behavior during 12 years a slave. . .
June 1987, Madonna was rushed to the Cedars Sinai hospital for an X-ray after her then-husband—Sean Penn hit her across the head with a baseball bat. At the time, they had been having a heart-to-heart talk about reconciling.
Madonna did not make an official complaint because Penn was about to serve a short jail term for attacking a film extra and violating the probation he’d been given for punching a fan. It was a decision she would come to regret. In the late afternoon of December 28, 1988, Penn scaled the wall surrounding the Malibu house and found Madonna alone in the master bedroom.
According to a report filed by Madonna with the Malibu sheriff’s office, the two began to quarrel. Penn told her he owned her “lock, stock and barrel”. When she told him she was leaving the house, he tried to bind her hands with an electric cord. Screaming and afraid, Madonna fled from the bedroom. Penn chased her into the living room, caught her and bound her to a chair with heavy twine. Then he threatened to shave her hair. Penn was “drinking liquor straight from the bottle” and the abuse went on for nine hours, during which he smacked and forced Madonna to perform a “degrading sex act” on him.
He went out to buy more alcohol, leaving Madonna bound and gagged. Some hours later, he returned and continued his attacks, then finally untied her. Madonna then fled the house and ran to her car. Penn ran after her and was banging on the windows of her Thunderbird while she spoke to police on her mobile phone. Fifteen minutes later, she staggered into the sheriff’s office.
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Madonna says she was disrespected by the black men she dated; blames white racism, sexism
Jet, Dec 18, 1995
Pop music superstar Madonna recently told Spin magazine, “I’ve never been treated more disrespectfully as a woman than by the Black men that I’ve dated.”
In Spin’s January 1996 issue, the seductive entertainer revealed she never expressed her controversial opinion before, but she thought the way Black men treated her was a reflection of their culture.
Madonna, who was once involved in a highly publicized relationship with colorful, controversial basketball star Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, went on to say, “I think Black men have just been s— on for so long, that, in a way, Black women are maybe more willing to accept rage from a Black man, because they see what’s happened to them.”
She said many Black men grow up without fathers or strong male figures, and they are used to seeing men disrespect women.
In the exclusive interview, Madonna noted she thought she appealed to Blacks because she’s a female, therefore in a minority group also. But she said she later realized that the Black community does not support her.
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Don’t mess with her! Madonna blasts ‘enslaver’ during Steve McQueen’s 12 Years A Slave premiere after being criticised for texting
She’s a force to be reckoned with.
Breaking classic moviegoer etiquette, Madonna relentlessly sent text messages during the premiere screening of 12 Years A Slave in New York City on Tuesday.
But her actions didn’t go unnoticed, causing a scorching fan to blatantly call her out, in which the 55-year-old pop icon responded: ‘It’s for business… enslaver!’
When someone asked her to stop, she snarled “It’s for business… enslaver!” Because no one would understand what enslaving feels like better than a Detroit girl pretending to be British. Oh Madge. She has also been banned from the Alamo Drafthouse cinema chain until she apologizes. That’s totes awkward considering what the film is about. Plus, being asked not to text during a film might not exactly be a situation where the word enslaver is the right choice.
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Source: thedailymail and Perez Hilton.
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Bell hooks on Madonna
Madonna: Plantation Mistress or Soul Sister?
bell hooks
From ‘Black Looks: Race and Representation’
Subversion is contextual, historical, and above all social. No matter how exciting the “destabitizing” potential of texts, bodily or otherwise, whether those texts are subversive or recuperative or both or neither cannot be determined by abstraction from actual social practice.
–Susan Bordo
White women “stars” like Madonna, Sandra Bernhard, and many others publicly name their interest in, and appropriation of, black culture as yet another sign of their radical chic. Intimacy with that “nasty” blackness good white girls stay away from is what they seek. To white and other nonblack consumers, this gives them a special flavor, an added spice. After all it is a very recent historical phenomenon for any white girl to be able to get some mileage out of flaunting her fascination and envy of blackness. The thing about envy is that it is always ready to destroy, erase, take over, and consume the desired object. That’s exactly what Madonna attempts to do when she appropriates and commodifies aspects of black culture. Needless to say this kind of fascination is a threat. It endangers. Perhaps that is why so many of the grown black women I spoke with about Madonna had no interest in her as a cultural icon and said things like, “The pregnant dog can’t even sing.” It was only among young black females that I could find die-hard Madonna fans. Though I often admire and, yes at times, even envy Madonna because she has created a cultural space where she can invent and reinvent herself and receive public affirmation and material reward, I do not consider myself a Madonna fan.
Once I read an interview with Madonna where she talked about her envy of black culture, where she stated that she wanted to be black as a child. It is a sign of white privilege to be able to “see” blackness and black culture from a standpoint where only the rich culture of opposition black people have created in resistance marks and defines us. Such a perspective enables one to ignore white supremacist domination and the hurt it inflicts via oppression, exploitation, and everyday wounds and pains. White folks who do not see black pain never really understand the complexity of black pleasure. And it is no wonder then that when they attempt to imitate the joy in living which they see as the “essence” of soul and blackness, their cultural productions may have an air of sham and falseness that may titillate and even move white audiences yet leave many black folks cold. Needless to say, if Madonna had to depend on masses of black women to maintain her status as cultural icon she would have been dethroned some time ago. Many of the black women I spoke with expressed intense disgust and hatred of Madonna. Most did not respond to my cautious attempts to suggest that underlying those negative feelings might lurk feelings of envy, and dare I say it, desire. No black woman I talked to declared that she wanted to “be Madonna.”
Yet we have only to look at the number of black women entertainers/stars (Tina Turner, Aretha Franklin, Donna Summer, Vanessa Williams, Yo-Yo, etc.) who gain greater crossover recognition when they demonstrate that, like Madonna, they too, have a healthy dose of “blonde ambition.” Clearly their careers have been influenced by Madonna’s choices and strategies. For masses of black women, the political reality that underlies Madonna’s and our recognition that this is a society where “blondes” not only “have more fun” but where they are more likely to succeed in any endeavor is white supremacy and racism. We cannot see Madonna’s change in hair color as being merely a question of aesthetic choice. I agree with Julie Burchill in her critical work Girls on Film, when she reminds us: “What does it say about racial purity that the best blondes have all been brunettes (Harlow, Monroe, Bardot)? I think it says that we are not as white as we think. I think it says that Pure is a Bore.” I also know that it is the expressed desire of the nonblonde Other for those characteristics that are seen as the quintessential markers of racial aesthetic superiority that perpetuate and uphold white supremacy. In this sense Madonna has much in common with the masses of black women who suffer from internalized racism and are forever terrorized by a standard of beauty they feel they can never truly embody.
Like many black women who have stood outside the culture’s fascination with the blonde beauty and who have only been able to reach it through imitation and artifice, Madonna often recalls that she was a working-class white girl who saw herself as ugly, as outside the mainstream beauty standard. And indeed what some of us like about her is the way she deconstructs the myth of “natural” white girl beauty by exposing the extent to which it can be and is usually artificially constructed and maintained. She mocks the conventional racist-defined beauty ideal even as she rigorously strives to embody it. Given her obsession with exposing the reality that the ideal female beauty in this society can be attained by artifice and social construction, it should come as no surprise that many of her fans are gay men, and that the majority of nonwhite men, particularly black men, are among that group. Jennie Livingston’s film Paris Is Burning suggests that many black gay men, especially queens/divas, are as equally driven as Madonna by “blonde ambition.” Madonna never lets her audience forget that whatever “look” she acquires is attained by hard work–“it ain’t natural.” And as Burchill comments in her chapter “Homosexual Girls”: I have a friend who drives a cab and looks like a Marlboro Man but at night is the second best Jean Harlow I have ever seen. He summed up the kind of film star he adores, brutally and brilliantly, when he said, “I like actresses who look as if they’ve spent hours putting themselves together–and even then they don’t look right.” Certainly no one, not even die-hard Madonna fans, ever insists that her beauty is not attained by skillful artifice. And indeed, a major point of the documentary film Truth or Dare: In Bed With Madonna was to demonstrate the amount of work that goes into the construction of her image. Yet when the chips are down, the image Madonna most exploits is that of the quintessential “white girl.” To maintain that image she must always position herself as an outsider in relation to black culture. It is that position of outsider that enables her to colonize and appropriate black experience for her own opportunistic ends even as she attempts to mask her acts of racist aggression as affirmation. And no other group sees that as clearly as black females in this society. For we have always known that the socially constructed image of innocent white womanhood relies on the continued production of the racist/sexist sexual myth that black women are not innocent and never can be. Since we are coded always as “fallen” women in the racist cultural iconography we can never, as can Madonna, publicly “work” the image of ourselves as innocent female daring to be bad. Mainstream culture always reads the black female body as sign of sexual experience. In part, many black women who are disgusted by Madonna’s flaunting of sexual experience are enraged because the very image of sexual agency that she is able to project and affirm with material gain has been the stick this society has used to justify its continued beating and assault on the black female body. The vast majority of black women in the United States, more concerned with projecting images of respectability than with the idea of female sexual agency and transgression, do not often feel we have the “freedom” to act in rebellious ways in regards to sexuality without being punished. We have only to contrast the life story of Tina Tumer with that of Madonna to see the different connotations “wild” sexual agency has when it is asserted by a black female. Being represented publicly as an active sexual being has only recently enabled Turner to gain control over her life and career. For years the public image of aggressive sexual agency Turner projected belied the degree to which she was sexually abused and exploited privately. She was also materially exploited. Madonna’s career could not be all that it is if there were no Tina Turner and yet, unlike her cohort Sandra Bernhard, Madonna never articulates the cultural debt she owes black females.
In her most recent appropriations of blackness, Madonna almost always imitates phallic black masculinity. Although I read many articles which talked about her appropriating male codes, no critic seems to have noticed her emphasis on black male experience. In his Playboy profile, “Playgirl of the Western World,” Michael Kelly describes Madonna’s crotch grabbing as “an eloquent visual put-down of male phallic pride.” He points out that she worked with choreographer Vince Paterson to perfect the gesture. Even though Kelly tells readers that Madonna was consciously imitating Michael Jackson, he does not contextualize his interpretation of the gesture to include this act of appropriation from black male culture. And in that specific context the groin grabbing gesture is an assertion of pride and phallic domination that usually takes place in an all-male context. Madonna’s imitation of this gesture could just as easily be read as an expression of envy.
Throughout [many] of her autobiographical interviews runs a thread of expressed desire to possess the power she perceives men have. Madonna may hate the phallus, but she longs to possess its power. She is always first and foremost in competition with men to see who has the biggest penis. She longs to assert phallic power, and like every other group in this white supremacist society, she clearly sees black men as embodying a quality of maleness that eludes white men. Hence they are often the group of men she most seeks to imitate, taunting white males with her own version of”black masculinity.” When it comes to entertainment rivals, Madonna clearly perceives black male stars like Prince and Michael Jackson to be the standard against which she must measure herself and that she ultimately hopes to transcend.
Fascinated yet envious of black style, Madonna appropriates black culture in ways that mock and undermine, making her presentation one that upstages. This is most evident in the video “Like a Prayer.” Though I read numerous articles that discussed public outrage at this video, none focused on the issue of race. No article called attention to the fact that Madonna flaunts her sexual agency by suggesting that she is breaking the ties that bind her as a white girl to white patriarchy, and establishing ties with black men. She, however, and not black men, does the choosing. The message is directed at white men. It suggests that they only labeled black men rapists for fear that white girls would choose black partners over them. Cultural critics commenting on the video did not seem at all interested in exploring the reasons Madonna chooses a black cultural backdrop for this ~video, i.e., black church and religious experience. Clearly, it was this backdrop that added to the video’s controversy.
In her commentary in the Washington Post, “Madonna: Yuppie Goddess,” Brooke Masters writes: “Most descriptions of the controversial video focus on its Catholic imagery: Madonna kisses a black saint, and develops Christ-like markings on her hands. However, the video is also a feminist fairy tale. Sleeping Beauty and Snow White waited for their princes to come along, Madonna finds her own man and wakes him up.” Notice that this writer completely overlooks the issue of race and gender. That Madonna’s chosen prince was a black man is in part what made the representation potentially shocking and provocative to a white supremacist audience. Yet her attempt to exploit and transgress traditional racial taboos was rarely commented on. Instead critics concentrated on whether or not she was violating taboos regarding religion and representation.
In the United States, Catholicism is most often seen as a religion that has [few] or no black followers and Madonna’s video certainly perpetuates this stereotype with its juxtaposition of images of black nonCatholic representations with the image of the black saint. Given the importance of religious experience and liberation theology in black life, Madonna’s use of this imagery seemed particularly offensive. For she made black characters act in complicity with her as she aggressively flaunted her critique of Catholic manners, her attack on organized religion. Yet, no black voices that I know of came forward in print calling attention to the fact that the realm of the sacred that is mocked in this film is black religious experience, or that this appropriative “use” of that experience was offensive to many black folk. Looking at the video with a group of students in my class on the politics of sexuality where we critically analyze the way race and representations of blackness are used to sell products, we discussed the way in which black people in the video are caricatures reflecting stereotypes. They appear grotesque. The only role black females have in this video is to catch (i.e., rescue) the “angelic” Madonna when she is “falling.” This is just a contemporary casting of the black female as Mammy. Made to serve as supportive backdrop for Madonna’s drama, black characters in “Like a Prayer” remind one of those early Hollywood depictions of singing black slaves in the great plantation movies or those Shirley Temple films where Bojangles was trotted out to dance with Miss Shirley and spice up her act. Audiences were not supposed to be enamored of Bojangles, they were supposed to see just what a special little old white girl Shirley really was. In her own way Madonna is a modern day Shirley Temple. Certainly her expressed affinity with black culture enhances her value.
Eager to see the documentary Truth ar Dare because it promised to focus on Madonna’s transgressive sexual persona, which I find interesting, I was angered by her visual representations of her domination over not white men (certainly not over Warren Beatty or Alek Keshishian), but people of color and white working-class women. I was too angered by this to appreciate other aspects of the film I might have enjoyed. In Truth or Dare Madonna clearly revealed that she can only think of exerting power along very traditional, white supremacist, capitalistic, patriarchal lines. That she made people who were dependent on her for their immediate livelihood submit to her will was neither charming nor seductive to me or the other black folks that I spoke with who saw the film. We thought it tragically ironic that Madonna would choose as her dance partner a black male with dyed blonde hair. Perhaps had he appeared less like a white-identified black male consumed by “blonde ambition” he might have upstaged her. Instead he was positioned as a mirror, into which Madonna and her audience could look and see only a reflection of herself and the worship of “whiteness” she embodies– that white supremacist culture wants everyone to embody. Madonna used her power to ensure that he and the other nonwhite women and men who worked for her, as well as some of the white subordinates, would all serve as the backdrop to her white-girl-makes-good-drama. Joking about the film with other black folks, we commented that Madonna must have searched long and hard to find a black female that was not a good dancer, one who would not deflect attention away from her. And it is telling that when the film directly reflects something other than a positive image of Madonna, the camera highlights the rage this black female dancer was suppressing. It surfaces when the “subordinates” have time off and are “relaxing.”
As with most Madonna videos, when critics talk about this film they tend to ignore race. Yet no viewer can look at this film and not think about race and representation without engaging in forms of denial. After choosing a cast of characters from marginalized groups–nonwhite folks, heterosexual and gay, and gay white folks–Madonna publicly describes them as “emotional cripples.” And of course in the context of the film this description seems borne out by the way they allow her to dominate, exploit, and humiliate them. Those Madonna fans who are determined to see her as politically progressive might ask themselves why it is she completely endorses those racist/sexist/classist stereotypes that almost always attempt to portray marginalized groups as “defective” Let’s face it, by doing this, Madonna is not breaking with any white supremacist, patriarchal status quo; she is endorsing and perpetuating it.
Some of us do not find it hip or cute for Madonna to brag that she has a “fascistic side,” a side well documented in the film. Well, we did not see any of her cute little fascism in action when it was Warren Beatty calling her out in the film. No, there the image of Madonna was the little woman who grins and bears it. No, her “somebody’s got to be in charge side,” as she names it, was most expressed in her interaction with those representatives from marginalized groups who are most often victimized by the powerful. Why is it there is little or no discussion of Madonna as racist or sexist in her relation to other women? Would audiences be charmed by some rich white male entertainer telling us he must “play father” and oversee the actions of the less powerful, especially women and men of color? So why did so many people find it cute when Madonna asserted that she dominates the interracial casts of gay and heterosexual folks in her film because they are crippled and she “like[s] to play mother” No, this was not a display of feminist power, this was the same old phallic nonsense with white girl thingy at the center. And many of us watching were not simply unmoved–we were outraged.
Perhaps it is a sign of a collective feeling of powerlessness that many black, nonwhite, and white viewers of this film who were disturbed by the display of racism, sexism, and heterosexism (yes, it’s possible to hire gay people, support AIDS projects, and still be biased in the direction of phallic patriarchal heterosexuality) in Truth or Dare have said so little. Sometimes it is difficult to find words to make a critique when we find ourselves attracted by some aspect of a performer’s act and disturbed by others, or when a performer shows more interest in promoting progressive social causes than is customary. We may see that performer as above critique. Or we may feel our critique will in no way intervene on the worship of them as a cultural icon. To say nothing, however, is to be complicit with the very forces of domination that make “blonde ambition” necessary to Madonna’s success. Tragically, all that is transgressive and potentially empowering to feminist women and men about Madonna’s work may be undermined by all that it contains that is reactionary and in no way unconventional or new. It is often the conservative elements in her work converging with the status quo that have the most powerful impact. For example: Given the rampant homophobia in this society and the concomitant heterosexist voyeuristic obsession with gay life-styles, to what extent does Madonna progressively seek to challenge this if she insists on primarily representing gays as in some way emotionally handicapped or defective? Or when Madonna responds to the critique that she exploits gay men by cavalierly stating: “What does exploitation mean? . . . In a revolution, some people have to get hurt. To get people to change, you have to turn the table over. Some dishes get broken.” I can only say this doesn’t sound like liberation to me. Perhaps when Madonna explores those memories of her white working-class childhood in a troubled family in a way that enables her to understand intimately the politics of exploitation, domination, and submission, she will have a deeper connection with oppositional black culture. If and when this radical critical self-interrogation takes place, she will have the power to create new and different cultural productions, work that will be truly transgressive–acts of resistance that transform rather than simply seduce.
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Bell Hooks dissects Madonna’s Spin interview on Black men. . .
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CBUm7GrNI)
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@ Jefe, confirmation bias rules! Obviously those kinds of IRRs don’t exist because white people and black people just can’t “see” them..
@ Kiwi, you know where I am coming from. You said:
I have so seen this very thing among many of the men on my father’s family (a mix of the various Asian ethnicities mentioned earlier). That side of the family is numerous (my father was one of 14), so there were all kinds of examples to pull from. These observations were spread over the US (Florida) and Caribbean, and a few European countries.
Some of these male cousins’ dating and marriage practices were so transparently white-centred, I can’t say whether it was tragic, or comic. Some of them really believed they “could do better” and “improve themselves” by setting their sights on The Best Out There, aka, the whitest white woman they could find. They didn’t necessarily want, love or respect the individual woman: just her whiteness — white skin was like a talisman!! And nor did it seem to matter that that chased-after white woman didn’t respect or share that individual man’s values, that she didn’t care all that much for him, or his family’s old-fashion family-centred Asian-ness (like respect for elders, tradition and so on).
Of course this was NOT in every case.
Relationships are not easy, and ANY relationship can have shaky foundations and can be entered into for “wrong” reasons.
As for for females in that side of the family — generally they put more of a premium on a man’s ability to provide, his maturity, stability of character. That being the criteria, black men were not excluded from their choices, especially if the black man was handsome AND possessed those inner and practical qualities. But, more often than not white men (Canadians or Europeans mostly), American Jews (not classed as “fully” white) and Chinese (or Korean) men were higher on that “wishlist” than black or brown men. Not really “Wishlist”. More like TARGET! lol!
There were women in the family that would do practically anything to hoik in a good catch. Yes, “hoik” and “anything” being the right words, believing themselves to be very fine bait indeed!
Tastes and choice would depend on trends and demographics. There is pressure to conform, cultural conventions about who one is supposed to find attractive. It;s all superficial and foolish stuff, but very influential.
I remember once, when I declared my crush on Bruce Lee. Some (part-Chinese) relatives looked at me as if to say “Huh? Why? A guy like that would only be interested in a white woman or a Chinese woman as second choice! You’d never find one anyway!” “Be serious!” “Be real!”
So what and Why not was my response. I liked Bruce’s physique, his cool, his masculine beauty, he was simply a man, we all had East Asian ancestry lurking in the family, even if distant, so what was the bloody problem! The “problem” was that the Chinese MEN in the Caribbean and the Americas supposedly didn’t have mixed relationships anymore. Except with white people, at a stretch. Maybe some would choose a mixed-race person, but not if he had more choices of “pure” Chinese or “pure” Korean women…
There are in-house prejudices in ethnically-mixed families I describe based on ideas about “purity” and suitability. These are collective, FAMILY choices to a degree, in many though not all cases: for instance, an Indian man from India may have his family forbid him to marry an Indian woman from the Caribbean because there is no way of them to check her family’s provenance.
What caste was the family from originally? What if she came from an “Untouchable” family!! If her family arrived in the America’s as “coolies”, (slaves, basically), then her ancestors had been unclean and looked down upon in India. So why would their educated, going-places son marry into THAT pollution? That tainted blood line would pass through to the children, and curse them! Therefore: totally unsuitable! Find a real Indian girl instead. Not every wave of Indians into the Caribbean were the “coolie” workforce. Some came later as independent trades people.
Now, what if that the possible suitor is a Muslim…aaaarrggghhhh! Run! From the side of the man’s Muslim family, the question would be whether this Western woman could really make a good wife? Western women tend to lack moral values and don’t have strength of character, don’t they — what about that ghastly stereotype? Bear in mind, too, many Christians in the Caribbean and the States and Europe, do NOT like Muslims, are scornful and blatantly ignorant of the inner, spiritual workings of the religion and utterly believe every extreme-end-horror-story about Muslims — especially about what a “disgusting” Muslim man and his evil Muslim family will really turn into after he marries this naive and unsuspecting Westerner…. So, you see, there are stereotypes and demonisations galore.
I don’t subscribe to the notion that everyone is just automatically suited to “their own kind”. Nor do I advocate it. What is one’s “own kind” anyway, really, if you have, and appreciate your own multi-ethnic heritage? I know many people make that choice, and follow what I call “the hereditary pattern” obediently when it comes to who they settle down with, but not everyone can do that. It’s very, very personal, and you have to take tremendous care.
I think we’ve all I’ve seen people who date and marry “in” and still don’t get on. I’m more of a believer in individual chemistry, shared values, listening, respect and so on, between couples — shared ethnicity is meaningless to me as a criterion to organize my choices around.
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@ Linda
LOL! That “good” hair rubbish is distasteful but sometimes, I just had to bust at laughing at the sheer banality of it! Don’t forget “fine Caucasian facial features”! “Pretty straight nose”! And what about that “ cool Indian skin-tone”!
Oh, my. To be an exoticized ethnic minority among an oppressed and brutalized population…
It always made me shrivel in embarrassment: I had done NOTHING to win all that UNWANTED attention for my physical characteristics, for one,….because, for two, the next day I would be getting racist abuse or physical attack from someone black, white or Asian. Mixed race? Oh, wait for the kick to come down on your coolie head….In England, the mixed-race category had been “owned” by the children of black fathers and white mothers (usually), so what the hell was I thinking having some “cute” characteristic had any lustre to it?
These realities take some navigating around.
It is so individual, so personal.
It was, and is, far from easy for any of those Asian, African, Afro-Caribbean and mixed-race (black and white in this context) children, either.
We were all struggling. Ones like me were probably the most invisible.
I took the stand to hang back from the imposed definitions others had for me — definitions that made me simple for them.
They weren’t me — they don’t know my family or me — and I didn’t know them either. We were all being defined — by colourism, racism, ignorance of people and place, difference and commonalities — from outside.
That’s what I wanted to understand. I think for many years, I was just outside myself, looking on at all the IRRs and the tide of children that were born and finding their way, and would, in their own way and in their time, define themselves.
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@Bulanik
Agreed
As I said there may be black and asian couples that I have passed in the street but due to more noticeable unions between black men/white women or lesser black women/white man,its not that noticeable to me
I can say in the caribbean its extremely common hence the derogatory term ‘coolie’ but as I said the only unions featuring Asians that I have noticed here is southeast Asian women mostly with white males and few with black males and even fewer south Asian females with black males too.
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all i ever wanted lately is to date a white lady not because its a fantasy or to prove a point but to learn about other cultures , the point is we are all equal , the same , like bleed the same color blood and when you love someone its not a matter of , money , skin color or looks but its feelings. so lets live , love and let God
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@ Ebonymonroe. I laugh at the “coolie” thing myself. What you said made me mull over some questions for a day or so; I hope you might share some thoughts.
The thing is — it is a very important area of enquiry for People of Colour, but relatively under-studied and rarely (if ever) discussed — have you noticed that? What are your thoughts on how come that is o — since so many of us have that Indian/Chinese slave-heritage, not only the 100s of years of slavery as it affected and continues to affects black people to this day?
Yes, in parts of England — I am not thinking the “UK” as such — there are lots and lots of black+white couples. Hence my fatigue with the lack of curiosity, understanding or care in other kinds of IRRs and other kinds of mixed-race people. Do you have a theory about why there are no figures or studies about that in a country where people are generally more relaxed about IRRs?
You say your mother is mixed-race — Asian Indian and white — what was her own parents’ IRR like? what did that teach you about IRRs and your identity?
Did your parents think of themselves as being in an IRR or “mixed marriage”, as it used to be called?
Both my parents are “multi-ethnic” and they were each the product multiple generations of IRRs. This gave them had conflicting outlooks, some positive, some not. It seemed their IRRs opened and closed and changed their minds over the years.
Their children — my siblings and me — all have different outlooks to IRRs and different mixed-race identities as result of diverse appearance, travels and personal experiences. Mother and siblings all live in the States now, and their outlook is pretty much — yah, pretty much — what I have read here over and over and over. It’s subsumed in the black and white binary…
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Bulanik
@ Ebonymonroe. I laugh at the “coolie” thing myself. What you said made me mull over some questions for a day or so; I hope you might share some thoughts.
The thing is — it is a very important area of enquiry for People of Colour, but relatively under-studied and rarely (if ever) discussed — have you noticed that? What are your thoughts on how come that is o — since so many of us have that Indian/Chinese slave-heritage, not only the 100s of years of slavery as it affected and continues to affects black people to this day?
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I had no idea what it meant, but admittedly, I used it once or twice, as a quick description of myself, during my teens, to bring to an end the whole, “so what are you?” question that comes up post introductions. People of colour are completely infested with White supremacism and its strains. We are completely in collusion with it, by regurgitating its paradigms, in ideology, word, and in deed, as Bell Hooks would say. You need a majority to uphold a system, a significant minority against it, would begin to fray it. This is the sad state of affairs we must accept and take responsibility for as people of colour.
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Bulanik said
“Yes, in parts of England — I am not thinking the “UK” as such — there are lots and lots of black+white couples. Hence my fatigue with the lack of curiosity, understanding or care in other kinds of IRRs and other kinds of mixed-race people. Do you have a theory about why there are no figures or studies about that in a country where people are generally more relaxed about IRRs?”
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Why of course, my darling, White people are conducting the studies and their concern is centred on who’s diluting their race, and/or proving how much White supremacism no longer exists. They’re not interested in which minorities are intermarrying.
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Bulanik said
“You say your mother is mixed-race — Asian Indian and white — what was her own parents’ IRR like?
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Not good. He (my Seik Indian Trinidadian grandfather) came over to England after fighting as a pilot in the Second World War. According to my grandmother (Swedish Irish), my mother is the product of rape, since she is still ashamed to admit that she had a willing common law marriage with an Indian man. Of course that common law marriage lasted for years, so it must have been the strangest form of force you could ever imagine. Their relationship became tumultuous, partly due to my grandfather’s traditional “iron fisted, head of the household, ways” and my grandmother’s incompatibly natured “jazz aged, ways.” The relationship descended into a very tense home environment and my grandmother picked up and left with my mum. But my grandfather found them and threatened to k!ll them both, if she were to attempt it again. Not long after, my grandmother left. This all took place before my mum was out of her toddler years. My grandfather had to work long hours to keep food on the table, this necessitated my mum being left with a sitter for a few hours a day. There was not much leeway given to single fathers at that time, particularly a man of colour. So my mum was placed in a succession of White children’s homes and foster care placements, until adulthood. Let’s just say it wasn’t the most peaceful situation for my mum. For example, growing up, she was made to eat on the floor, under the table during dinner time, and when guests were present, she would have to eat in the garden, which eventually resulted in her nearly dying from double pneumonia at the age of 6. Every form of abuse you can imagine, so on and so forth. Also, the cane was still around in school at that time, and children were not scolded for bringing golliwog dolls into school at that time, nor was it seen as politically correct to require my mum stand up in front of the class to hold a bunch of bananas, as an educational lesson on primitive Africa, its mud huts, and the primitive POC inhabitants, who swung from trees. I’ll leave the horror stories there.
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Bulanik said
“what did that teach you about IRRs and your identity?”
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I think my liberal outlook comes moreso from growing up in such a multicultural area and attending a multicultural school. As far as how I see myself, my mum had the foresight of teaching me to see myself as both Black and biracial, simultaneously, as a mixed race woman herself. Understating that White people would see me as Black, while some members of the Black community would not necessarily always view me as Black.
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Bulanik said
“Did your parents think of themselves as being in an IRR or “mixed marriage”, as it used to be called?”
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To be honest, because my mother is olive skinned, with full lips, and with frizzy curly European textured hair that she inherited from my grandmother, I had no idea she wasn’t just a very light skinned Black woman until I was about 7 or 8. I assumed she was Indian, White and Black. Lol. My mum once told me that she just happened to end up with a Black man, mostly because White men did not pursue women of colour at that time, so, as a woman of colour, she ended up being with a man of colour who just so happened to be Black.
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Bulanik said
“Both my parents are “multi-ethnic” and they were each the product multiple generations of IRRs. This gave them had conflicting outlooks, some positive, some not. It seemed their IRRs opened and closed and changed their minds over the years.
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Yes, well, not my mum, but a certain side of my family would much prefer for me to settle down with a White man. My Irish family do not view me as a Black woman, they will only refer to me as mixed race. And then there’s the “high yella” siblings, one of which was very specific about her future husband being “high yella” in skin tone, and he is, (of mixed race parentage). My other sister didn’t mind as much, although her husband too is a fair skinned Black man (mixed race grandparentage). Thankfully, I don’t have these hang ups; things seem to have improved from sibling, to sibling, to nephews and nieces. . . well excluding one niece.
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Bulanik said
“Their children — my siblings and me — all have different outlooks to IRRs and different mixed-race identities as result of diverse appearance, travels and personal experiences. Mother and siblings all live in the States now, and their outlook is pretty much — yah, pretty much — what I have read here over and over and over. It’s subsumed in the black and white binary…”
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Sometimes, I think these attitudes are very a product of communally relative schools of thought. I do believe much of my sister’s (the one who required a very specific skin tone in a mate) attitude stemmed from the attitude in the Caribbean community we lived in. My other sister seems to have rejected it, albeit mildly, while it began rubbing me up the wrong way as I grew to learn where these attitudes in the Black community actually come from.
With a mixed family, in a society where POC are already contending with a White supremacist system, there can be an extra layer of “in house” complications that are at play.
Which one looks more like the Caucasian/Caucasian looking parent?
One of my siblings, who is the fairest in skin tone, got stick from the other sibling, I got stick from both for having the straightest hair texture and the longest in length. Everyone’s grown out of that now, however.
But it is certainly an odd web we weave.
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^^^
*nor was it seen as politically incorrect
*Sometimes I think these attitudes are very much a product of communally relative schools of thought
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I thought this was revealing. Of course Cohen has been saying things like this for years so…
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/11/richard-cohen-in-context/281426/
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@ Ebonymonroe, I am getting the impression that IRRs between racialized individuals are far more complex than ones with a white partner.
Right now, I’m trying to piece together the threads of your grandparent’s relationship, and the era they lived in, so that I can understand how it influenced your mothers’ outlook about IRRs.
(I take it that your Afro-Jamaican?)
The Trinidadians I’ve known have never mentioned Sikhs among them, but I am aware there are very small numbers of Sikhs in Trinidad. What is clear to me, is that even though Sikhs and Muslim Indians are (generally) more open-minded than Hindus when it comes to intimate relationships non-Hindus, your father was quite unusual in his interpretation of “rahat nama” (Sikh Code of Conduct).
For one, although a “Gora” (white person) can be taken as life-partner, there are rules and customs to follow which can bar their union. It’s not that it’s forbidden on “colour” grounds: it’s down to religious commitment.
Also, in marital life (common law relationship or not), the Sikh man is not known for “man is head of the household” chauvinist behaviour. I was told off about that once by more than one Sikh woman when foolishly imagined what she meant by “tradition” was deferring to her man! lol!
Was your grandfather “Amritdhari” (or baptised)? If he was, some of his actions that you describe are against the teachings he was initiated in.
Not least his attitude towards your black father. Furthermore, your father was not from India — he was the Indian Diaspora, from the West Indies — and at least accustomed to Africans marrying Asians, etc.
That pattern is pretty much standard in the Caribbean!
When you say you thought your mother was: “… just a very light skinned Black woman…my mother is olive skinned, with full lips, and with frizzy curly European textured hair…I assumed she was Indian, White and Black.
Isn’t it possible that she was?
As I said above, among Trinidadians, IRRs are pretty common, and although you say your mother’s father was Indian, that might have been what he considered himself to be . This is because many part-Indian Trinidadians (aka “Dougla”, a word for mixed race Indian/Africans), simply self-describe as “Indian”. They look Indian, too. it is quite a common occurrence. Just like your Irish relatives never calling you “Black”. You are not black to them. You are “mixed race” instead.
I think I’ve learned the hard way that it’s an essential part of life — and necessary for mental health for any PoC — to have a positive and informed sense of who they are.
You say you did not know about the meaning of “coolie” until the other day. Miss Ebony! 😀
May I suggest this Asian part of your heritage is really WORTH looking into? Indentured servitude — what coolies were — was slavery.
It is a not word or a practice applied to people of African descent: Asians only, as a degradation, as dehumanization based on race, on status.
There is a long and deeply painful history there, too.
My view is that it is the individual’s responsibility NOT to collude, or regurgitate the old or dressed up paradigms/ideology about “diluting races”, and “purity of races”…from black people, or from white people, or from any other people. Sometimes, it can pay dividends for investigate a little further along the family tree.
In a discussion with one of my cousins mentioned earlier upthread, she said she could not and would not subscribe to what “the community” wanted her to call herself, to please any form of “them”, by letting “them” what they want to hear. I agree. Flattering someone else’s racial world view, only for the sake of belonging and being “liked” works for a time, but seeking approval has limited possibilities. It only works for a time. Ultimately, your identity is your own, and identity changes with time and place, experience and maturity. A person brings that into their relationships, no matter what ethnicity they choose for partner.
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Btw: have you talked with your mother about the a long “lineage” of Eurasian children going back centuries in England? These were mainly the offspring of children born to Indian soldiers, sailors, student and the like, and white Englishwomen. I even heard that at one time in England, women who had just this Indian/White heritage OUTNUMBERED all other women of colour! Then, add in the Indian wives of British colonials who brought over them and half-white/half-children back to the UK…In fact, I grew up hearing about the considerable numbers of Anglo-Indians in the population of the United Kingdom. Your mother had a very tough childhood, but she’s one hell of a survivor. She is also blessed with a rather rich heritage.
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typo*
“(I take it that your father was Afro-Jamaican?)”
*half-white/half-Indian children back to the UK…
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Maybe you would like to expand your reflections on “interracial relationships” to other societies. Take a look on what Brazilians (mostly black Brazilian women) think of that:
(http://blackwomenofbrazil.co/2013/10/03/how-interracial-marriages-are-one-of-the-most-glaring-symptoms-of-brazilian-racism/)
My personal opinion on this topic is that there is nothing inherently wrong in “interracial relationships”.
I don’t think either that the expression of preferences for certain physical traits in the opposite sex is wrong in itself, even if some of those traits overlap with what we commonly associate with “racial features”. If one individual man can prefer “petite” women and we all think it is fine, why can another man not be allowed to prefer fair skinned women?
I am fully aware that tastes are, to a certain extent, the result of propaganda and/or indoctrination, and therefore are not totally “natural”. A preference for light eyes, for example, could therefore be the consequence of “manipulation” (by the media, peer pressures, etc). But this is valid for many other preferences.
What is wrong is the way the power imbalances between people who belong to different “racial” groups interfere with the dynamic of human relationships in general, and the expression of love and/or sex in particular. I interpret this as a consequence of what is known in this blog as “white supremacy” or “white racism” (I would say “human color hierarchy”).
I think that in an ideal world, free of those power imbalances, probably humans would again express their individual preferences while in search for love or sex and, in the process, find partners with similar or dissimilar phenotype as themselves. But the whole love/sex game, at macro level, would reach a certain equilibrium, without noteworthy imbalances.
And let’s not forget that not only physical characteristics count in the real love/sex game. Personality traits are important too.
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Bulanik @ Ebonymonroe,
“I am getting the impression that IRRs between racialized individuals are far more complex than ones with a white partner.”
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Yes, I think they certainly can be. This was my point about internalized racism in people of colour, it isn’t checked the way White racism is, and we are not often ostracized and held accountable for our collusion with White supremacy. We do not have “tolerance” shoved down our throats as much, it is just assumed we will have it through a common thread and empathy due to being groups of people of colour ourselves.
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Bulanik said
“Right now, I’m trying to piece together the threads of your grandparent’s relationship, and the era they lived in, so that I can understand how it influenced your mothers’ outlook about IRRs.
(I take it that your Afro-Jamaican?)”
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Yes, Afro/African Jamaican, first generation American.
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Bulanik said
“The Trinidadians I’ve known have never mentioned Sikhs among them, but I am aware there are very small numbers of Sikhs in Trinidad. What is clear to me, is that even though Sikhs and Muslim Indians are (generally) more open-minded than Hindus when it comes to intimate relationships non-Hindus, your father was quite unusual in his interpretation of “rahat nama” (Sikh Code of Conduct).
For one, although a “Gora” (white person) can be taken as life-partner, there are rules and customs to follow which can bar their union. It’s not that it’s forbidden on “colour” grounds: it’s down to religious commitment.
Also, in marital life (common law relationship or not), the Sikh man is not known for “man is head of the household” chauvinist behaviour. I was told off about that once by more than one Sikh woman when foolishly imagined what she meant by “tradition” was deferring to her man! lol!
Was your grandfather “Amritdhari” (or baptised)? If he was, some of his actions that you describe are against the teachings he was initiated in.
Not least his attitude towards your black father. Furthermore, your father was not from India — he was the Indian Diaspora, from the West Indies — and at least accustomed to Africans marrying Asians, etc.
That pattern is pretty much standard in the Caribbean!”
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My mother believes her father’s family had were only recent Trinidadians, only going so far back in Trinidad, to his grandparents. My grandfather was actually a Christian, but not a strict practitioner. I think his “iron fisted ways” were just a product of being a Caribbean, military man of the 1950’s. The title of “Sikh” was just applied to distinguish between Punjabi Indians. A few years after his relationship with my grandmother ended, he married a Sikh Indian woman and returned to Trinidad; I don’t believe he necessarily had any intention of marrying my grandmother at first, he had no plans to stay in the UK. But he stick around to work and for my mum. My mother tells me all of his friends were Afro Caribbean, but he did not agree with the idea of his daughter taking a Black man as a mate. He would not have been particularly pleased with a White male mate, but not as strongly against it. He was very particular about his daughter settling down with a Indian man he selected. Also, my mum wasn’t married at the time. There were a number of things that wore on my grandfather’s traditional strict views, for his daughter.
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Bulanik said
“When you say you thought your mother was: “… just a very light skinned Black woman…my mother is olive skinned, with full lips, and with frizzy curly European textured hair…I assumed she was Indian, White and Black.
Isn’t it possible that she was?
As I said above, among Trinidadians, IRRs are pretty common, and although you say your mother’s father was Indian, that might have been what he considered himself to be . This is because many part-Indian Trinidadians (aka “Dougla”, a word for mixed race Indian/Africans), simply self-describe as “Indian”. They look Indian, too. it is quite a common occurrence. Just like your Irish relatives never calling you “Black”. You are not black to them. You are “mixed race” instead.”
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You never know, but as far as what my mum tells me of her father’s heritage, they had only been in Trinidad from his grandparent’s time. I don’t believe they go that far back in Trinidad.
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Bulanik said
“I think I’ve learned the hard way that it’s an essential part of life — and necessary for mental health for any PoC — to have a positive and informed sense of who they are.
You say you did not know about the meaning of “coolie” until the other day. Miss Ebony! 😀
May I suggest this Asian part of your heritage is really WORTH looking into? Indentured servitude — what coolies were — was slavery.
It is a not word or a practice applied to people of African descent: Asians only, as a degradation, as dehumanization based on race, on status.
There is a long and deeply painful history there, too.
My view is that it is the individual’s responsibility NOT to collude, or regurgitate the old or dressed up paradigms/ideology about “diluting races”, and “purity of races”…from black people, or from white people, or from any other people. Sometimes, it can pay dividends for investigate a little further along the family tree.
In a discussion with one of my cousins mentioned earlier upthread, she said she could not and would not subscribe to what “the community” wanted her to call herself, to please any form of “them”, by letting “them” what they want to hear. I agree. Flattering someone else’s racial world view, only for the sake of belonging and being “liked” works for a time, but seeking approval has limited possibilities. It only works for a time. Ultimately, your identity is your own, and identity changes with time and place, experience and maturity. A person brings that into their relationships, no matter what ethnicity they choose for partner.”
……………………………………………
Where I grew up, in a predominantly Caribbean neighbourhood, “Coolie” meant half Black half Indian, or half Black half a large percentage of Indian. I haven’t used that word since just after I turned 13, which is more than a decade ago now. My mum just happened to bring up the fact that it is a negative word the other day during conversation, which is something I was not aware of. As you said, terms like “the n word,” “Coolie,” apparently even “redbone,” are all things embraced by people of colour that have found a shelf life amongst the people who were originally dehumanized with the terms. The most important thing is that once one learns, they put it to bed. Many of use don’t, sadly.
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Bulanik said
“Btw: have you talked with your mother about the a long “lineage” of Eurasian children going back centuries in England? These were mainly the offspring of children born to Indian soldiers, sailors, student and the like, and white Englishwomen. I even heard that at one time in England, women who had just this Indian/White heritage OUTNUMBERED all other women of colour! Then, add in the Indian wives of British colonials who brought over them and half-white/half-children back to the UK…In fact, I grew up hearing about the considerable numbers of Anglo-Indians in the population of the United Kingdom. Your mother had a very tough childhood, but she’s one hell of a survivor. She is also blessed with a rather rich heritage.”
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My mum was the only South Asian she knew growing up. I know a little about the impact of the offspring of men of colour from the military in the UK in the 50’s and 60’s. There was a documentary on it a few years ago.
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munu aka Bantu
My personal opinion on this topic is that there is nothing inherently wrong in “interracial relationships”.
I don’t think either that the expression of preferences for certain physical traits in the opposite sex is wrong in itself, even if some of those traits overlap with what we commonly associate with “racial features”. If one individual man can prefer “petite” women and we all think it is fine, why can another man not be allowed to prefer fair skinned women?
I am fully aware that tastes are, to a certain extent, the result of propaganda and/or indoctrination, and therefore are not totally “natural”. A preference for light eyes, for example, could therefore be the consequence of “manipulation” (by the media, peer pressures, etc). But this is valid for many other preferences.
What is wrong is the way the power imbalances between people who belong to different “racial” groups interfere with the dynamic of human relationships in general, and the expression of love and/or sex in particular. I interpret this as a consequence of what is known in this blog as “white supremacy” or “white racism” (I would say “human color hierarchy”).
I think that in an ideal world, free of those power imbalances, probably humans would again express their individual preferences while in search for love or sex and, in the process, find partners with similar or dissimilar phenotype as themselves. But the whole love/sex game, at macro level, would reach a certain equilibrium, without noteworthy imbalances.
And let’s not forget that not only physical characteristics count in the real love/sex game. Personality traits are important too.
……………………………………………
I think it’s somewhat inevitable, we’ll probably end up looking like Brazil and embracing caste systems in the near future. If we all went for the White ideal in our mates, it won’t be the end of the world, but it may end up being a very embarrassing, and slightly pathetic story of how so many years after slavery was abolished, the African diaspora in the West was so deeply colonialized that they themselves, did away with themselves, because they hated themselves just as much as. Lol
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@ Ebonymonroe
Naturally, the outlook (and relationship) of parents shapes the way a person sees themselves and we go about our relationships.
Both my parents, in their different ways are/were themselves ambivalent about their own mixed-race identities, as well as their very own IRR.
Their children are different — it’s just a persona thing, as I said over and over.
Nor did my parents treat their with equality. They found us all too different…
One factor was because each of seemed to feel different affinities for our complex heritages. Appearance played a factor, skin colour wasn’t really it although it DID play a part — it that wasn’t everything.
I think only my brother buys into black/white binary, and strives to fit into that by completely ignoring most of his heritage. I understand that part — he wants to keep it simple, and that suits him, even though it cracks under the strain whenever he and his Arab+African wife encounters discrimination from blacks AND whites who can’t figure out “what” she is, and then surmise about what he is…
A definite with my parents was that neither of them pushed any of us to say what we were to please anyone outside of the family, or to try and make anyone “understand” what we were. They were right, and to this day, the curiosity of others is of zero interest. We learned, that if someone was offended we existed, or envied something about us, if people were ignorant and hostile by our parents’ IRR, then that said more about their mind and predilections than anything else.
I think this might have been an outlook passed onto to them by their own parents from diverse origins, in turn.
True. Empathy towards other racialized people isn’t a given, is it!
But, imo, as IRRs go, white supremacy is ONE reason, a big bully of a reason, why they’re more complex than relationships when a white partner is involved.
Personally, though, I find this a bit passive: it’s an over-reliance on the white-people-and-their-relationships-with-PoC crock. I just find it it stale and tedious. American-style race politics and “race” language bleeds into everything if a person lets it. I know many reject it intellectually whilst continuing it and endlessly applying as the only viable outlook to have.
I remember when England wasn’t as “relaxed” as it is now about the IRRs (white and black couples). This was when definitions didn’t exist to encompass the mixed race people that existed that didn’t fit into half X and half Y. When definitions did shift, “mixed race” didn’t mean any combination of recognized ethnities: it was just a “shorthand” for a child who had one white and one black parent.
Most people trained themselves not to see beyond that.
(Not everyone had that luxury, but no one saw or heard us.)
Thus this discussion, this thread, has been OVERWHELMINGLY about white people in relation to everyone else because that’s what “inter-racial” means.
I simply don’t believe white supremacy should take the full blame for the narrowness of that.
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@ Ebonymonroe ^^ oops I only meant to have “intellectually” in bold!
Contd:
The thought occurred that when a non-European culture has its own long-held tradition, and even though white supremacy can change the form of it, it doesn’t change the core and origin that that non-European tradition it sprang from.
An IRR between racialized people are likely to be based on stereotypes and fetishes that come from cultural misinterpretation, not only white supremacy.
Take the example given earlier by you and Linda about long and silky-textured “coolie” Indian hair, apparently a trait coveted and liked by people of African descent in the Caribbean and elsewhere. As far as IRRs go, It would not be an exaggeration to say that we have all known black people who have pursued relationships with a person that is Asian Indian — or who looked like they were — because they got off on “coolie-ness” and/or wanted their children to have a silky Indian hair texture. Was that so because only because of “White Beauty Standards”, “Internalized Racism” and “Not Loving Blackness”? There might be more to it than that.
That’s the preponderance of the black and white binary.
But it’s just as reasonable to interrogate the traditions of Indians to find answers. After all, didn’t the the so-called “coolies” have opinions about their hair too? Doesn’t hair play a large part in self-image and sexual attraction anyway, practically everywhere by everyone? That’s a given in human behaviour/sexuality. How was that particular aspect of Indian’s cultural experience understood and misunderstood by the different people they encountered and later had relationships with? These are small questions, but they do step outside the presumptions about white supremacy.
In my attempt to find the most succinct of explanations, there weren’t any books on the subject, and I relied on the reminiscences and theories of Indo-Caribbean friends and family members, and found what they told me corroborated in with the (relatively limited) formal research on the subject* that did eventually come out. The majority of Indians that came to the Caribbean were Hindus. They were treated no better than the slaves, yet they were despised by all.
Hair, to Hindus, when it is long and smooth, hair is associated with sensuality, the sacred, and the feminine. It defines natural womanhood. Only in times of sadness or great reversal, will a woman wear her hair curly or unkempt.
This is exemplified in the Hindu epic Draupadi, the story of a woman thrown into slavery who pledges to keep her hair a mess (not smooth) until she is liberated. A video (it’s one minute long) about this legend: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE7YV1sR59I)
Among Sikhs? Well. Hair is an Article of Faith. It is both prized and pride. Cutting the hair means violating Nature’s laws. Sikh men are known to keep their hair long under their turbans.
In this general sense, then, the love of long and smooth hair is not a manifestation of white supremacy: it is badge of Indian self-hood. Moreover, when Indians encountered the ex-slave African populations, they may have seen there was limited options for most ex-slaves to care for their beauty and adornment. By the same token, the Africans forced under whip and manacle may have lingered on the physical presentation and show of silky, flowing hair by Indian women, and it may have posed a stark contrast to their own situation although the Indians were equally impoverished.
What about these Indian women? From all accounts, the women were lucky to have survived the filth and widespread rape on the ships that transported them from India, as many were not married or with their family. Thus, what lay in front of them would test their survival skills further still. Indian men greatly outnumbered Indian women as they arrived in places like Trinidad or Guyana. Although many were considered low and “soiled goods” because of their presumed violation (perceived as their fault), as females they also had value as a scarce commodity. Thus, through the period of indentured servitude, the Indian men fought and bargained over the Indian women, and when the women exercised their choices, it was not unknown for the men to butcher, by the blade of a machete, the woman who had scorned them. So, let’s be clear: the “coolie” woman was thoroughly used and abused in the fields both as slave labour — and as sex slave. These women were not only bent over in the fields, but also by the overseer and the men they toiled beside. This was common.
The University of the West Indies archives have a selection of photos of Indian women in Trinidad from the late 19th century. Although many Indians starved to death in the cane fields for refusing to work under the conditions given (their remains are still to be found I heard), many survived and some of the women were healthy enough to have families:
http://uwispace.sta.uwi.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2139/150/GoldF1_15C.pdf?sequence=1
http://uwispace.sta.uwi.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2139/2162/GoldF1_8C.pdf?sequence=1
http://uwispace.sta.uwi.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2139/2188/GoldF1_46B.pdf?sequence=1
The misery/degradation of this common experience would be written out of history, and forgotten, in much the same way that “the coolie” is marginalized and excluded from any examination of slavery, white supremacy or IRRs in the Americas that I have heard.
In its place was create an”exoticized and “hot” coolie-gal stereotype, — if visible at all. Instead, isn’t what we have left a distortion? The image of the Indian woman is paradox. It seems she was not only coveted for her phenotype, but became a fantasy-figure based on a sensuality which is both inherited from an ancient culture and simultaneously — a cause for her debasement.
(*There’s a website called “Coolie Woman: the Odyssey of Indenture” which features a book by Gaiutra Bahadur about the subject.)
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Ebonymonroe — I hope my meaning is clear, despite my many mistakes/typos.
I get frustrated with this bloody dyslexia of mine. 😀
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true post
good and bad
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Linda said,
“I’ll admit as a young woman, I enjoyed the attention I received from black men but there comes a point when being seen as an “exotical” loses its luster”
Uau… very interesting observation!
As a male I always thought that women feel good when flattered by men (even when they don’t intend to reciprocate!), and therefore I can understand how you felt as a young woman, but I cannot see how could you possibly have changed that feeling. What replaced that feeling? Anger? Irritation? Contempt?
Really, I am a little bit curious! (of the female psyche!)
In my society – Mozambique (urban) – we have for centuries, besides the major (from the point of view of numbers) groups of Blacks and Whites, also Indians (this includes some people originated from modern day Pakistan and recently some Arab migrants too), Chinese (went almost extinct after the Independence of the country; recently new Chinese arrivals but totally different and foreigners) and Mulattoes (a loose term which encompass everybody with some degree of “racial mixing” with Black Africans).
In the colonial days a strict racial hierarchy existed, namely (from top to bottom): Whites, Chinese, Mulattoes and Indians, Blacks.
The racial mixing occurred, almost invariably, only if the male was positioned higher in the hierarchy and the female was from a lower position. But such relationships were more sexual in nature and seldom ended in marriages. Anyway, many children of such relationships appeared, and for that reason we have a relatively high number (compared to former British and French colonies) of Mulattoes.
After the Independence and the emergence of a strong African nationalism that resulted from a victorious fight against the colonial power, Black social mobility increased dramatically and today the new middle class is mainly Black, although encompasses people from other racial groups (Whites, Mulattoes, Indians, etc) as well.
Mulatto and Indian families prefer to socialize and specially (!) marry within their groups. In some cases Indian families prefer to go to India (or Pakistan) to get a bride for their sons in order to maintain their “racial purity”.
But the number of racial mixed pairs Black man/Mulatto woman and Black woman/Mulatto man increased and I suspect that some Mulatto families do accept a Black spouse only if the latter proved him/herself socially “interesting”. But this attitude – which is reminiscent of the past social order – is seen by most observers as irrelevant from the point of view of its impact in the social fabric. because the elite is mainly Black and attitudes of minorities (whatever they are) do not bother that much.
Some Black males who went overseas to further their studies came with White women and some White expatriates (male and female) have been marrying with Mozambicans (from whatever race).
I feel that those interracial unions in a Black ruled society are, probably, freer of feelings of superiority/inferiority than in other societies where Blacks are supposed to be inferior and, where then, such unions carry within themselves the contamination of the “racial hierarchy”.
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@ munu aka Bantu
As you are curious about the female psyche ( I could fill you in on that with an answer, but your question was for Linda, so I’ll leave well alone! lol), so am I also curious about what you say about black-ruled societies.
On the one hand you say the societies are supposed to be “freer of feelings of superiority/inferiority”, yet, on the other hand, the attitudes of minorities don’t bother much to them….!
If minorities are ruled over, and the black, ruling elite isn’t interested in what the attitudes of minorities are, that might also apply to their minority rights and needs as well, wouldn’t it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is, if blacks rule in a society where there are other non-white ethnic groups, there is no “racial hierarchy” simply because racism isn’t applied to blacks…
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Again she pulled a knife
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Ah well she left me for a crack dealer … if thats her idea of a real man … have a nice day.
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@Bulanik
“so am I also curious about what you say about black-ruled societies.
On the one hand you say the societies are supposed to be “freer of feelings of superiority/inferiority”, yet, on the other hand, the attitudes of minorities don’t bother much to them….!
If minorities are ruled over, and the black, ruling elite isn’t interested in what the attitudes of minorities are, that might also apply to their minority rights and needs as well, wouldn’t it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is, if blacks rule in a society where there are other non-white ethnic groups, there is no “racial hierarchy” simply because racism isn’t applied to blacks…”
I get what you are saying and reading again what I wrote before I see it could be interpreted like that. But it is not what I had in mind!
Basically what I was saying is that in a Black-ruled society old societal norms and practices which reinforce a color based racial hierarchy (Whites on top and everybody else following and with Blacks in the bottom) are drastically diminished and persons of color in general (not only Blacks) have more opportunities to social ascension.
There are other problems in such societies but most of them are not racial in nature. Whites themselves can not say that they are “oppressed”. Certainly that with more competition things are rougher for them, as for everybody, but they are not discriminated.
In Mozambique, for example, we had in the first ten years following the Independence more White cabinet ministers in the government as Blacks, despite the fact that they constitute a relatively small minority (because of better education they received in the colonial period). Even today the most acclaimed Mozambican writer is a White citizen, Mia Couto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mia_Couto).
The Indian community here (we say “Mozambicans of Indian descent”) until today are dominant in the retail business (This is a peculiarity of East African countries, not only Mozambique) and, at least, a few influential politicians – in the today’s ruling party and in the opposition – come from this community. The head of one association of traders (that includes people from various backgrounds) is also from that community. And the head of the Mozambican Football Association (2013) is also from Indian descent, Feizal Sidat,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa%C3%A7%C3%A3o_Mo%C3%A7ambicana_de_Futebol), etc.
But because the opportunities are open to everybody is natural that in the schools and universities you’ll find more people from Black extraction than from those minority communities, and as a consequence, most of the middle-class is constituted of Black families.
The Mozambican society operates in a way that minorities, as such (as groups), are not openly recognized. Is the individual – from whatever extraction – and his/her rights that count more, from the point of view of the law.
I can say that some of this apples also to other countries in the Southern Africa region, to a certain extent (SADC, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_African_Development_Community).
Did you know, for example, that the today’s Vice-President of Zambia is a White citizen? Or that all successive governments in South Africa after 1994 had at least, each, one White cabinet minister (and other non-Blacks as well)?
My expression “attitudes of minorities (whatever they are) do not bother that much” must be interpreted as meaning that most people in Mozambique do not fixate or obsess to look at to whom the Indian families marry their sons. As a counter-example, I knew personally one guy who complained about the “closure” of the Indians, “these guys are racist! why they don’t accept that a Black like me can court or marry one of their daughters? they despise us, blah, blah, blah”. I found out: that guy had a “crutch” in a specific Indian girl. Personal affairs… But such worries are rare. Most of the people would not pay too much attention to specific attitudes like those from minority communities. After all, they can grow themselves to be middle-class and have the good life they dreamed of! Minority communities would not stand in the way for that.
My previous wording was meant to express the fact that minority communities, in a Black ruled society like Mozambique, are left free to manage their own intimate affairs as they feel fit, without outside pressures.
I hope, this time, I’m clearer.
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@ Peanut
I am not ashamed to be paired with a black woman. In fact, I find it arrogant and insulting when white people assume I secretly like white women more.
Since the age of 12 I have noticed that Hollywood’s idea of beauty was markedly different than mine. I now know it is because they are racist, that it goes beyond “preferences” shaped by racial segregation into something much uglier. It does not make me think less of black women, it makes me think less of them.
On the other hand, I have internalized some amount of shame for liking what I like. For example, sometimes on Tumblr I will NOT reblog a picture of a woman if her butt or her lips are “too” big. Not because I do not like it – I do – but out of shame for liking it. Bria Myles is about as far as I will go even though she is close to my physical fantasy ideal women.
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I was watching MSNBC’s Melissa-Harris-Perry, she was having a round table discussion with her guest about Washington Post columnist, Richard Cohen’s comments on mayor-elect Bill De Blassio and his Black wife and bi-racial children, about suppressing a gag reflex when seeing them. This is lets me know America has issues with IRR couples in 2013. Melissa -Harris-Perry, went on to say white America has issues with looking at black Americans whether it be mixing and marrying whites to the recent shooting death of Renisha Mcbride. You would think with Barak Obama, being bi-racial that America would be past this fear of people in black skin. But, in 2013 America is still uncomfortable with black/white binaries.
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Richard Cohen of the Washington post want to throw up when he sees IRR couples.
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I think he said conservative people have to repress a gag reflex. He wasn’t talking about himself.
Anyway, I’m surprised the “used to be a lesbian” thing got so little media attention. That’s the kind of thing that makes me do this:
and this type of stuff allows people to simply guess half of a person’s biography. Liberal-arts college and some unpractical major? What else could it be? Did she feel rejected and unloved when she was a teenager, but found kindred souls in college? Does she consider herself a poet and an activist? Does she severely overrate her education and intellectual level? Is she an unbearable idealist who is not capable of critical thinking? I’m betting my money on ‘yes she is!’.
It’s like hearing someone call themselves a ‘creationist’ or ‘libertarian’. Most of the time such keywords tell you all you need to know about that person.
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Oh! McCray gets bonus cliche-points if her parents were deeply religious or practical minded (working class or had degrees in medicine/law /economy/engineering etc.).
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“I was watching MSNBC’s Melissa-Harris-Perry, she was having a round table discussion with her guest about Washington Post columnist, Richard Cohen’s comments on mayor-elect Bill De Blassio and his Black wife and bi-racial children, about suppressing a gag reflex when seeing them. This is lets me know America has issues with IRR couples in 2013. Melissa -Harris-Perry, went on to say white America has issues with looking at black Americans whether it be mixing and marrying whites to the recent shooting death of Renisha Mcbride. You would think with Barak Obama, being bi-racial that America would be past this fear of people in black skin. But, in 2013 America is still uncomfortable with black/white binaries.”
*************************************************
The last two above sentences reminds me of a song called FEAR OF A BLACK PLANET by my boys from back in the day, Public Enemy. (I bet King thought I was going to say .. Two Live Crew!)
Ms Mary~
Amerikkka is still a very racist white supremacist country. That hasn’t changed.
What’s changed (since the Civil Rights Era) is that political correctness movement has caused *some* white folks to be more careful and cautious about HOW, WHEN, WHERE they express their backstage undercover racism publicly.
There’s a growing angry anti-Politically Correct backlash festering amongst Tea Party members and other WHITE “conservatives” who want THEIR country back — the way it was not all that long ago… the old Jim Crow and all that came with it.
According to these white supremacists, black people should know and stay in their place, NOT gallivanting about in national headlines as New York City’s first (interracial) family. Apparently, that’s enough to make make a LOT of white folks squirm, plus gag reflexively like our resident naysayer Eco, in spite of, (and possibly because of) Obama’s historical and scripted rise to the presidency.
Astute observers noticed that Amerikkka’s amazingly short lived *post-racial* era ended immediately after B. O.’s first inaugural ball. Once this half black man was sworn-in and made the Commander in Chief, unprecedented MILLIONS of white folks RAN out and purchased new guns and tons of ammo. Go figure! I mean seriously.. WTH happened??
So what new surprises await in NY surrounding the FIRST BLACK probable occupants of NY mayor’s residence at the prestigious Gracie Mansion? We know without a doubt that white folks nationally – and Eco – are going to keep a super wary eye on this peculiar new white mayor, but especially on black his wife, and their offspring. And on the black wife’s black relatives, friends and associates, and THEIR relatives, friends and associates.
Politics and race… a formula for nonsense!
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well i guess she was just threatening me, for some wierd reason, we’re back together, time will tell
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@matari, deblassio and his wife is touted as ‘the picture of new york’, in the somewhat more liberal media channels, maybe you want to cut down on the fox news, and also the ‘gun run’ when obama was elected was due to people thinking (yes mostly white) that there would be more restrictions on ‘sporting’ type assault rifles and stuff and I think people wanted to get it in in a ‘grandfather clause’ way before the perceived increased restrictions or ‘gun grab’ that the ‘conservative’ right-wing (white-wing?) people were anticipating with a liberal administration, not so much on a ‘prepper’ note although i am sure that is a strong undercurrent yet, there is a lot of talk of fema setting up population control camps etc…. on the paranoid side of things…
sort of like a self-fulfilling prophecy from all around maybe?
you think people would be protesting with signs ‘i just want to be happy’ or something, oh well i guess i was born a little bit late for that all.
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V8
I don’t watch FOX. I was going strictly from the comments posted by Mary, Eco and a short piece I read on a news site. My idea of why so many white folks were running to their neighborhood gun shops (and gun shows) is based upon some white folks’, primarily those who didn’t vote for him, fear that a black president (supposedly a muslim born outside of the USA with his supposedly FAKE birth certificate was attempting to hoodwink the good white people in Amerikkka-lol) was looking out particularly for the interests of black people. Yeah …. rii-ight!! I think the whites who went suddenly spastic on guns and bullets were anticipating and preparing for a possible race war. Is this what FOX believed??
There were other democratic/liberal presidents. I noticed whites didn’t arm and ammo up in droves then when Carter and Clinton were elected as they did with Obama. Why didn’t they?
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@Matari
I hoped I will be able to ignore you longer, but unfortunately I wasn’t strong enough.
“According to these white supremacists, black people should know and stay in their place, NOT gallivanting about in national headlines as New York City’s first (interracial) family. Apparently, that’s enough to make make a LOT of white folks squirm, plus gag reflexively like our resident naysayer Eco, in spite of, (and possibly because of) Obama’s historical and scripted rise to the presidency.”
I know you don’t allow little things like facts get in the way of a good narrative, but still I would like to point out that I attacked a mentality that has nothing to do with race. If anything, ‘lesbian until graduation’ is mainly a stereotype about white liberal women. The second thing is that the most negative thing I’ve ever said about Obama was that he upheld a lot of Bush policies and hasn’t changed (improved) all that much. If I truly had a problem with black people in the public eye, and not with liberal arts cliches, I think It’s safe to assume I would have focused my criticism on the POTUS and not some irrelevant wife of a local politician.
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@ munu aka Bantu
What you say is really an eye-opener. This in particular:
Because social mobility aspect would generally be true, due to greater educational and professional opportunities. That leads to greater interactions among peers of different ethnic backgrounds, along with relationships and marriage between them… But, doesn’t black-rule also bring in the of idea of black-with-black as also “better” and more desirable than IRRs?
Are more socially mobile blacks “aspiring” to marry non-blacks? Is that the done thing?
I don’t mean this as a contradiction of what you say, because we are being very culture specific. (I am simply looking for greater understanding of your country because I know next to nothing about it! lol. I’m curious about the explanations.)
Munu, I’ve never met any Afro-Mozambicans, only Indians from that country, and their perspective could be described as “insular”. In fact, that could be an accurate description of practically all Indians out of East Africa, even though they and their ancestors have have trading and living in that region for many, many centuries. What I found interesting about that was that there was never an Indian takeover or outright hegemony — merely co-existence with barriers — would that be accurate?
Can we compare Mozambique with South Africa for a moment. Among the black South Africans there are obviously different ethnic groups, and some mix more with each other than not — a Venda and Basutho will more often be married to a Zulu, rather than say an Ndebele or Swazi.
That is what I heard, at least. There inter-ethnic marriage trends!
But since Apartheid, IRRs among blacks and other non-black (not including whites) is not rare, but hardly widespread. But aren’t those unions (between blacks and other “non-whites”) still frowned upon? Just a question.
I also gather that the most “mixed” population of South Africa — the Coloureds — have experienced the worst of post-Apartheid society. The reasons for that are complex, but that, to me, says much about the social disdain they are held in not only by the black majority, the whites that used to rule over everyone, but the other non-white groups…
As this is the case — how was this achieved?
IRRs have been going in South Africa for centuries — the 4 million Coloureds of that nation are the living legacy of Africans, Indonesian and Malay slaves and the Dutch colonialist who have been intermingling since the 1650s, so there’s nothing new course there. But what is it about Mozambique’s racial history that makes it so different from South Africa’s?
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fox news and the closely aligned ‘world net daily’ ie wnd.com a hyperextension of fox basically, only more christian and totally anti-gay, ran with the ‘truther’ movement hardcore, which is what you are describing ie people with the ‘oh we’re going to get obama impeached due to HI birth records, etc. etc.’, and they fit into the ‘wanting to be mainstream’ mold, but have agressive agendae i guess i would probably see it as the ‘political arm’ or like 5th column so to speak of the most racist people in america today
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@Bulanik
Bulanik said “In this general sense, then, the love of long and smooth hair is not a manifestation of white supremacy: it is badge of Indian self-hood. Moreover, when Indians encountered the ex-slave African populations, they may have seen there was limited options for most ex-slaves to care for their beauty and adornment. By the same token, the Africans forced under whip and manacle may have lingered on the physical presentation and show of silky, flowing hair by Indian women, and it may have posed a stark contrast to their own situation although the Indians were equally impoverished.”
……………………………………….
Great Indo Caribbean history lesson there, thanks.
^^^ Perhaps at that time, maybe, but in terms of Black internalized racism, the gist of it is generally whatever isn’t Black, and whatever is closest to White features, being that Indian straight hair is closer to White than Afro textured hair, this has been the line of thinking behind it, in my experience.
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@ Ebonymonroe
Yes, you;re right. 😀
However, it IS a question of experience.
That’s why I say over and over, it is so personal and individual.
It depends and what kind of family you are from, the culture they have, what the individual wishes to embrace, learn about and foreground.
It depends. It depends on what a family passes down as Pride and Identity.
How they make you identify yourself and what you know about your own heritage.
My own family (the side which is Asian) don’t necessarily rely on the White Standards only….not everyone does, all the time, everywhere.
Not everyone is either Black or White, and nothing else. In my experience, I’ve never heard anyone in my family — Asian and mixed Asian — say or look up to white beauty standards as better or more desirable than Asian or “mixed” ones.
I do not wish to say the people I speak of are magically untouched by white supremacy, that they have internalized nothing, like they are uninfected by it.
However, what has struck me most is that it is their Asian selves that they wish to look like and value, NOT primarily
– the beauty white people, or
– the rejection of African beauty…
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And nor am I talking about the past ^^, like in the 19th century! Lol!
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@matari there have been several initiatives (mostly) by democratic leaders in the senate and congress and on a local level as well, to limit magazine capacity and access to semi-automatic rifles particularly in order to prevent a perpetrator from i guess killing too many people at once? Since columbine, and 9/11, and sandy hook, etc etc, these things didn’t seem to be happening so often back in the 80’s and 90’s, the real push to limit assault weapons started after that guy in california took an ak and starting shooting the asian children in a schoolyard i think it was sometime in the 90’s (i think he was a vietnam vet having a flashback or something)
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@ munu aka Bantu
Perhaps I’m slowly beginning to understand your point about black-ruled societies better!:-D There’s really incredible variety in those societies, and a more advanced ethos than what we’re usually exposed to. I think what’s coming out is that it’s not only been under-scrutinized but usually misunderstood.
For instance, when Idi Amin expelled Uganda’s Asians in 1972, I believe it was always portrayed in the way that made me believe Ugandans themselves were either indigenous Africans or foreigner Asians. But, as it turns out Uganda is the most ethnically diverse nation on earth; I read that the country’s constitution recognizes 57 ethnicities within its border. That seems to exceed Brazil, the country that is often held up as the poster child of ethnic diversity and IRRs.
I realize I am probably mixing up categories and definitions of “race” and “ethnicity”, but my point is that because Africa is seen in the media as a country, and “real” Africans are mistakenly seen as a monolithic, undifferentiated Black Mass, inter-marriage among different African ethnicities also seems “invisible”.
Because that is the overwhelming image, I believe the general view taken is that those black-rules societies aren’t examples, or that they are not worth looking at.
Academics at Harvard University’s Institute for Economic Research spent 11 years studying 650 different ethnic groups across 190 countries. What the study revealed “blows apart misconceptions that western nations are the most racially diverse.” The world’s map of ethnic diversity:
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2326136/Worlds-apart-Uganda-tops-list-ethnically-diverse-countries-Earth-South-Korea-comes-bottom.html)
In that country, inter-marriage was not uncommon and in more recent times has been actively encouraged to promote stability in the country.
http://www.observer.ug/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7913&catid=37&Itemid=66
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Some fascinating and informative links Bulanik!
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This thread has become far too calm and intelligent.. therefore I will drop in this popular interracial relationship out of pure spite!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHVqIECtLvg)
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@Bulanik
Bulanik said
“Yes, you;re right. 😀
However, it IS a question of experience.
That’s why I say over and over, it is so personal and individual.
It depends and what kind of family you are from, the culture they have, what the individual wishes to embrace, learn about and foreground.
It depends. It depends on what a family passes down as Pride and Identity.
How they make you identify yourself and what you know about your own heritage.
My own family (the side which is Asian) don’t necessarily rely on the White Standards only….not everyone does, all the time, everywhere.
Not everyone is either Black or White, and nothing else. In my experience, I’ve never heard anyone in my family — Asian and mixed Asian — say or look up to white beauty standards as better or more desirable than Asian or “mixed” ones.
I do not wish to say the people I speak of are magically untouched by white supremacy, that they have internalized nothing, like they are uninfected by it.
However, what has struck me most is that it is their Asian selves that they wish to look like and value, NOT primarily
– the beauty white people, or
– the rejection of African beauty…”
……………………………………………
It’s interesting you should say this. There is a post on here that covers some issue with Black girls choosing White dolls over Black dolls early on. Signifying that they are often completely Whitewashed and embedded with self hate from a young age. I remember travelling half way across London with my mum when I was little to find these twin Black baby dolls she had spotted a few days before. I was so excited, but by the time we got there, they had gone. I always wanted a Black doll, but they were impossible to find, and this was before the internet age. Sometimes I look back and wonder if it was the era I came up in, Black music was huge in the 90’s, and there was a never ending stream of shows aimed at teenaged audiences featuring all Black casts. Black cinema was also a prominent feature of the 90’s. Also, the neighbourhood I grew up in was predominantly African Caribbean. My mum was very firm on consistently emphasizing the beauty of Blackness to me, at every opportunity. She even used Michael Jackson’s “Remember the time” video as an educational experience, and bored me with long sonnets of Iman’s perfection.
You’re right, it is about the personal, individual experience. It is actually a little uncomfortable for me assuming that so many people assume every Black girl/woman, has a problem with her Blackness. I remember when I was younger, I wanted to be one of the dark skinned girls around the way, with the big earrings and the big “Patra braids.” I guess my era was like 2pac’s verse in “keep ya head up,” my era “had me feeling like Black was the things to be.” I hope I’m not one of the few raised to feel this way.
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Interracial marriages are common these days. I think there are many marriages from Western men with Chinese women today. So, it is common though.
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@ Ebonymonroe
What you explain so well, is not the experience of the few. On the contrary.
That’s simply how it was, and is. Sure, not for everyone, but many.
My own parents, as I said earlier, are both children of IRRs themselves.
They came from different cultures, but they were both exposed to the westernized-Afrocentric outlook which was dominant in the English-speaking Caribbean populations. It’s an outlook which also greatly influenced the grander westernized-Afrocentric that gradually became dominant in the USA… It’s an outlook, a reactionary frame of reference, the lens, the language, the mindset that’s deemed as the only the way to survive and navigate in white-dominant AND black-dominant societies.
Earlier on, Linda talked about the fact that when a non-Asian woman marries into an Asian family, it is the family, not only the man, she marries.
The children, too, become the children of their father’s family.
That’s how it was with my parent’s IRR.
So, although my father’s Euro-Asian origins made him hard to place by appearance alone, that made no difference. Whatever his children looked like, we were of their bloodline and that took precedence.
But there was a paradox. The Caribbean had left 2 intertwined legacies after the abolition of slavery for Asian families to deal with:
1. white supremacy in the minds of black people, who, nontheless had
2. black cultural hegemony over Asians. (Add to that the denial of both! — Out of Many: One People/We Include Everyone, etc….lies, lies, lies — more like “Absorb and then Ignore”.)
I think for my dad this made him both ashamed of his East Asian/South Asian & West Asian-ness, but at the same time absolutely adamant that his children embrace this heritage. After all, didn’t the black people around him dismiss the Indian or Chinese or Sephardi Jewish PRESENCE and history as only quite interesting but mostly irrelevant to today’s world? ?
Asians didn’t matter. Only black people mattered. Didn’t the majority — black people — have their history and struggle to promote and come to terms with? Why bother with “coolies”! Who cared about their odyssey, why bother about their outcomes? That was the stuff of side shows…hence the silence, the invisibility, the dismissiveness.
Perhaps this ^^ was why the Asian men in my family clung to the essence of patrileanlity in their culture. My father used to say:
My wife is a stranger, but my children are my blood.
To him, his children were “his people”, and the mother of his children had no lineage. And that was that. His sisters, therefore all married Asians, he and his brothers married anyone they wanted, whether Asian, or women who were part-, or of full, African descent.
I feel this experience was probably behind what I said earlier on in the thread:
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@ Ebonymonroe, as usual, I’ve messed and made a typo error — only “My wife is a stranger, but my children are my blood.” should be in italics! 😀
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@ King, I enjoyed that video…lots of sex & love deprivation leading up to some industrial-strength SNOGGING!! Yes!
I can only offer you the wedding dance of this handsome West African groom and his Indian wife… (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noB54SGEYgo)
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I’ve heard about the weird crap about ‘race fetish’. Creepy as fuck – sounds like an amalgam of racism and textbook sexual objectification. ‘Women aren’t human beings with personalities – they’re just sex toys, especially if they look “exotic”!’
I get shudders thinking about the kind of person with this sort of mindset.
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“Black men are the most willing to date out a study showed out of all race men,wonder why?”
The stats regarding black men dating outside their race have been exxagerated to say the least. And certainly life in a white supremacist matrix influences the black man’s decision to date outside his race with “perks” being extended to black men who co-habitate with white, latina or asian women. They are assigned more “value” , get a better credit score, can live in better neighborhoods, etc. These are presented as “incentives” to lure black men to choose anyone but a black woman to be with. I mean it is fairly obvious that the white race is deeply invested in seeing the black man abandon his black woman.
However many black men date, marry and build families with black women, but when black men are portrayed in the media 99% of the time he is with anyone but a black woman and the black woman is either rendered invisible ot portrayed as a “caricature”. She is hateful, single, obese and mean-spirited. Black relayionships and black love are under the control of the white racist power structure to be used to promote , yet again, a tiresome agenda to thwart true meaningful love between black men and black women. The white race has proven their abject enmity towards us with their meddling in every facet of out existence and need to destroy our race.
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exaggerated , my bad. And yes , the white supremacist paradigm does not feel the need to rely on facts or truths to promote their agendas , but often rely on spreading lies and misinformation AS truth merely because if the “information” or “statistics” is being disseminated by whites or the white racist media than somehow it must be so. As is this whole , “Black men marry outside their race more than any other race” which is a lie.But as this “misinformation” is being disseminated by whites we accept it as “gospel” no matter how many times whites have lied to us and about us in the past. Shake it off, people.
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@ Kiwi, and if , somehow black women are being “left in the cold” as black men abandon us in record numbers , how come the same rationale doesn’t apply to white men? If black men are marrying scores of white women, how come white men are not portrayed as “abandoned and bereft”? It’s not like white men can select any and all women to choose as their partners or wives even though the media portrays them as being able to select women from any race to partner up with them there are many women who would never consider a white man as a “partner” unless he were Brad Pitt or Jonathan Rhys-Meyers. I mean , it’s called logic. The average white man is far from desireable so obviousle there is an agenda attached to this whole IR black men/ white woman angle that bears further investigation.And , let’s face it, most white women are totally undesireable as well , if the media weren’t being used to uplift these women as some sort of paragon or ideal, let’s face it, most of their own men don’t want them.
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Beauty as a purely inert phenomenon devoid of cultural relations is complete and utter nonsense that should have died off along with the Blumenbach era. In the Tian Shan region of Central-East Asia, and historically all of greater Persia, monobrows were/are seen as extremely attractive – the bigger and bushier the better. In a particular indigenous South American culture (I forget the name), intense tattooing and scarification are considered as aspects of beauty, and if you didn’t have enough of them then you were considered dirt-rag ugly.
The rubbish about ‘white beauty’ is creepy in how it seems to have pervaded through most of America (and ‘white’-influenced countries like South Korea, India and the Phillipines).
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@deepdkchocolate
I agree it is exaggerated, but you may have to research the stats because the last time I checked, Asian women married out the most and Black men married out more than all other groups of men. You have to understand that they’re considering the minority population aspect when comparatively analysing the math. Also, the reason why they don’t make a song and dance about White women marrying out is because there is no significant disparity between White men and White women marrying out.
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@ Ebonymonroe, what? I think it is mostly propoganda and noone has any real stats to support their assertions. analyzing a core of 10% and applying it to the whole does not reliable statistics make.
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i got kicked out of the kitchen forcibly and dismissed to my computer i guess that means this is an authorized posting imagine that
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omg im takin shit for this talkin on here even sheesh
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Thank god im not drunk tonite
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well at least this time they said black women and men are undesirable smh. so basically white men and Asian women are the most sought after, interesting.
And to the guy stereotyping did u read the article? because if u did you would’ve seen that black men AND women recieved the least responses but ok black women aren’t sought after because of our attitudes well what about black men? what is ur reason for why they are the least responded to out of men? hypocrite.
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ok so 35 and under men prefer latino women but older ones of all races prefer Asian women? Bahwaahaw and white women are not in the top position wow. this does show how stereotypes can make certain people more attractive to everybody, we see movies and shows making Asian women seem submissive and the ultimate woman and latino women as exotic and spicy, white women as being delicate but I guess their title is slipping away from them. White men will be putting Asian women on a pedestal next oh that will be interesting to see if white women will try to fight for their crown, oh its gonna be like wwe women mixed with miss America. oh this is too much I love how they love acting like black men don’t want black women yet white men are out here chasing Asian women and nobody is saying u know what something must be wrong with white women for them to be running after some other woman.
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now i’m curious about which men came in second after white men as far as getting responses. is it Asian or latino men.
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this whole thing is hilarious to me lol, so Asian women came in first then latino women then white women then black women abhwahhwah. welcome white women to the bottom I know ur used to be in first but its ok, make urself comfortable at least they haven’t done studies about u at least not yet anyway. isn’t it wonderful to that we are starting to be post racial so don’t get upset everybody deserves to have a turn on the pedestal, except black women of course. Oh well now u see how the media shapes people’s preference at first we just saw a lot of movies with white women being epitome of woman, now we are seeing more Asian women in movies being the ultimate woman and now the sheeple have brought into it.
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ok peanut but look at the bright side karma is coming, white women are losing their pedestal and we can really see how the media putting out this woman is better and all the stereotypes play into who people choose as desirable and that people are a bunch of sheep. If the media said she hulk women were beautiful people would fall for it, and they would still say black women weren’t but if she hulk becomes the standard of beauty and black women are on the bottom then I know dam well people are blind sheep. http://www.femalemusclefactory.com/images/SheHulk.jpg
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um peanut naw pretty soon it will be if it ain’t Asian it ain’t amazin rofl.
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I think they do studies like this to test the waters to make sure black is still on bottom and white males are on top and have different selection of women to choose from. stereotypes play into a lot of things imo these are done to gauge if people are still under the spell of the media. If people continue to not like black ppl and uplift white beauty they know the programming is working. We see all the movies with white males as superheroes, nice, respectful, prince charming, etc. but men of color and black males are seen as being thug,rude, bad, villain, misogynist, etc. And with women they have white women being nice delicate, sweet, feminine, and Asian women as being the most feminine, sweet, delicate woman. and of course we know black women are seen as ghetto, rude, crazy, etc. That is why it is important for us to have our own media to tell our story and put attractive intelligent black men and women on screen because we see everybody else has a balance. They just love to show overweight unattractive black women and act as if black women are the most obese out of women but we are not latino women are yet on tv we see nothing but fit sxy latino women. I don’t think they even care too much if white women are not seen as the most attractive anymore as it is mainly about white males being first above everybody and being the most attractive males to get a wide variety of women. white men are the ones pushing Asian women as most beautiful the same way they did to white women, and when ppl see something constantly and are subliminally told get this its in, they start to want it. If black women were shown as being beautiful on screen and had roles showing us a being vulnerable, loving, funny, etc then people would buy into that, but we don’t have that so..
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wow, ok Trinidad African well it goes both ways black males need to be supportive of black women as well. and slavery didn’t just mess black women up black males have been messed up to, like how some don’t want to be a protector as during slavery they weren’t allowed to be. I didn’t hear them complaining when black women were helping the black community which benefitted black men. as for the weight thing yes there are overweight ppl in our community its not just black women but men and children. oh and slavery had us eating fatty foods and chitterlings which people still eat. the single mothers well yes there are some raising kids without a father but ppl need to make up their minds one minute they say black men spend time with their kids the next they say oh its single mothers, well which is it because if black men are spending time with their kids then what does it matter if a woman is no longer with the father of the kids as long as he is seeing them. as for the black women with white men yes it seems the well put together women get snatched up by white men if they want him. i’m glad successful black men have options really great but it doesn’t matter as they don’t help the black community anyway. think Michael Jordan, Charles barlkey, etc. and a woman wants an equal not somebody telling her to slow down or not be all she can be.
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@mstoogood4yall
well said
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FWIW, Trinidadian men tend to be very macho and seem to know everything about everything.
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@Trinidad African
Go ahead and find yourself a nice blonde and get married. I hope you two are very happy together 😀
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and what is ur defninition of being feminine and supportive? i’m sorry but can ppl plz stop putting tiger woods and Wesley snipes in there I mean they are no good catch all they have to offer is money. Tiger woods cheated on his wife with multiple women that isn’t a good catch, Wesley snipes allegedly hit halle berry and owes taxes. black people have crabs in the barrel mentality yes there are some black women that compete with black men just like there are black men that compete with each other and black women. oh and what is funny to me is how u say the successful black men don’t want to deal with black women well apparently they also don’t want to deal with black people period and don’t spend their money with black people and stay saying ignorant things about black people and downplaying racism and move away from black ppl. oh when I say black people that means black women, black men, and black children.
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“Black women have a desire to emasculate their man. They want to compete with him and dominate him, rather than be feminine and supportive”
and I can say that some black men desire to keep black women in our place when it is convenient, which is how when it is a black man hurt or whatever we are out there protesting and signing petitions but I guess that isn’t feminine as a woman shouldn’t take to the streets. And I guess we should’ve told harriet tubman and Bessie coleman not to be unfeminine and take the black man’s place and not free any slaves or fly any planes.
“When the white man was breaking down the black man, the black woman had to step up. Now that things have changed she doesn’t want to return to a healthy womanhood”
and some black men don’t want to return to a healthy manhood some have to re learn how to be protectors, supporters, and providers since white males didn’t allow them to. So what are black women supposed to step aside for some black males that are not ready and as u say come from single parent households and are messed up.
“And then these same black females say “You can’t handle a strong black woman,” as if any man wanted a woman he had to “handle.” A man wants a helpmate not a competitor smh.”
And some black males say black women get back so I can take over, a woman wants her equal not somebody who has to catch up by belittle her so he can be the man. If the guy is a man he won’t deal with trifling females and he will step up to get the woman he wants not the strong black woman but the intelligent, resilient, educated, loving black woman.
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@ lifelearner
rofl naw according to the study peanut posting he may want an Asian woman bahwha didn’t u hear white women are going out of style so maybe he can get one discounted.
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@mstoogood4yall
ROFL
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youtube links are what causes it to go into moderation. but plz tell its not a tommy vid
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ok trinidad African I do recognize good black men and women are far and between, but we can only see what the opposite s3x is or isn’t doing and not our own. It is hard for good black men and women to find each other apparently I get that. There are some black women and men out there that have their stuff together but even then some of them have major hangups and are picky about who they date within the community. u can see from ur perspective as a man that its hard to find a good black woman and well as black women we can say its hard to find a good black man as well. Yes there are some women that are good but are picky about things like height income, etc.and there are also some good men that are picky and will only date a certain skin tone of black women. I’m not going to say I can get all of the things I want in a man only in whites Asians and latinos, because that isn’t true there are good black men, Asian men, latino men, that can have the things I want in a man but its not exclusive to just one race .if u can get all of that with Asians, whites, an Latinas then good luck, I’m not going to try to convince someone that they can also have that with a black woman too.
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@mstoogood
LOL! I’m just so tired of the same trope re: black women. We must really be the bomb dot com because study after poll after reality show will tell you that black women are (insert derogatory term). Black women are AWESOME! It takes one to know one:-D. So glad I married a person who recognizes our worth, as beautiful black women. All that negativity goes in one ear and out the other.
Yep, no need trying to convince anyone to believe the way you do. Let them continue to be disillusioned.
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@lifelearner
Wish I had saw your comment before I posted.
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Peanut
u know that makes sense for them to be pushing Asian women because they don’t want white women to be taken by others to try to keep them in their place and so Asian women will be seen as beautiful and they brainwash them into thinking white is right and I must get a white man. Either way with pushing white or Asian women they have the most access to both. They will never push black women as beautiful because they don’t have much access to us in the sense of black women choosing them. Other women fawn over white men because they don’t see how they are or the history but we’ve dealt with them long enough to see how most of them are. people from other countries think white men are better because of tv and magazines they see.
as for if there are benefits for black women being on the bottom of the hierarchy well us being able to see how the “higher’ ups really behave and we get to see who is really in love with us and not wonder hmm are they just with us because of a fetish or because of the brainwashing. at least we would know the men we get with are with us for who we are and not what they see on tv and magazines and actually took the time to get to know us and not choose us based on stereotypes. as we know stereotypes for us are negative and if men get with us its because they have taken the time to get to know us and not just assume we are the stereotypes. So I guess the advantage is we get genuine people.
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lifelearner
I’m happy for u found someone that appreciates u for u. black women are amazing if we weren’t then others would not waste their time trying to shame us. Like the white women tried to do on twitter during black girls rock rofl. They want to destroy what little joy we have left, they want us to feel completely worthless that is why they stay attacking us and mrs Obama. I can’t believe people were attacking her because she said she puts her kids first, peep game ppl they want us to reject ourselves so we reject our children. and remember they attacked her because she showed off her toned arms, how dare she. smh. I just know this society is backwards things that are bad are good so if they saying black women are bad it’s no offense to me because their right and wrong meter is broken. They glorify dysfunction and uphold nasty women.
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It’s just statistics though… people misunderstand what statistics really mean.
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peanut plus I think this stuff is like a trend one minute they say white women are hot next minute latino and Asian women. black women are not a trend we are trendsetters and the birthers of talented men, women and children. we have power, we decide what’s hot and what’s not people copy us. so what if white males run things and can say which woman is hot or not trust that they had to pay a price to get that pedestal nothing is free. we see that a lot of Asian women have had to deny themselves and change different things and even stereotype their own men to get where they are. White women have had to turn the other cheek to white men’s behavior and stepping out on them. Latino women are next because some of them will deny their roots and take up with white men. Black women have not done that I will not sell my soul to the devil for some pieces of silver and to have more ppl lusting for me. I would rather black women be invisible than be a fetish for someone or just be a trend be the hottest commodity for a man to have on his arm. I would rather be invisible and only be seen by deserving men that see me for me and want me for who I am and not be a woman people say he should want but a woman he chooses to want and love.
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The statistics pretty much have always born out how people react to the STEREOTYPE of Black women.
But that has nothing to do with how people will react to any individual Black woman. That’s like taking a poll and finding that people around the world think most Americans are fat… how does that effect you if you are thin? Are people going to say, “I’m sorry, but most Americans are fat, so, I can’t date you,” or are they going to notice that you are not fat?
Same thing.
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rofl at constipated look. “I’m not really into black girls, BUT….” or the “she’s pretty for a Black girl,” smh or they try to say omg u look like (insert random black female celeb u look nothing like which is usually beyonce or halle berry because apparently they don’t know any black female celebs only mixed ones).
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oh and did u see the mess where Armani mistook alfre Woodard for idris elba
http://newpittsburghcourieronline.com/2013/11/25/idris-elba-or-alfre-woodard-they-all-look-alike-says-armani/
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wait no this link is better rofl smh http://www.vibe.com/article/black-twitter-armani-confuses-idris-elba-alfre-woodard-armanicaptions-emerge
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Peanut,
I think you may have just explained why those men get a pained (constipated) look on their faces when they see you. I think that beauty is undeniable, and I‘ve seen beautiful women in every shade and hue. But I am cautious about smiling or complimenting an attractive black or Latina women (that is unknown to me) for fear that I may offend them. Co-workers and acquaintances, if we’re on good terms, I’ll compliment, but women that I may meet in passing, I won’t comment – she probably doesn’t want the attentions of an old white guy anyway (I will still hold a door for them – they’re ladies after all). White or Asian ladies, I don’t hesitate to compliment, and I typically get a thank you in return.
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ah jees it’s easy to compliment a black woman, like any other variety thereof, may i suggest ‘you look nice today?’ this may not be appropriate in a work related setting, in general, unless, therre is some indication of a social interest. for extra credit, try, ‘your hair looks nice?’ that seems to work well. what is wrong with some people? and i think the amount of women in general that are just going to chill at home, to wait on a dude ‘hand and foot’ went out with 1951, who wants that anyway.
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@Peanut
they didn’t want an intelligent and pretty black woman being on equal footing with a white woman, let alone a white man. they wanted black women (including those who were attractive) to stay in their place and they wanted to have control of black women’s bodies and reserve them for their convenience. they didn’t want black women to have an education or aspire for great things…
My life gives me a closeup view into both blacks and whites. What you just said here is one of the main reasons why plenty of white men are wary of black women in social and other settings. They know that lots of black women hold on to anger about what happened years ago but you sound like you still want white men today to overlook your anger and treat you like a white woman or asian woman. Do you think that white men don’t know that lots of black women carry their anger around with them?
A white guy is not going to want to take the chance of allowing a black woman to pin all of her anger at the entire white race on him.
On the other hand, lots of black men may be angry about race relations but when they’re around white women, you would never know it. I’m around black men who are around white women every day. They compliment white women most of the time or say lighthearted things. They don’t mention slavery or any of the negatives about what happened then or now. They don’t constantly throw it in white women’s faces.
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@Jayis
“They know that lots of black women hold on to anger about what happened years ago but you sound like you still want white men today to overlook your anger and treat you like a white woman or asian woman.”—I am sure your experience is different, but I don’t think black women hold grudges or are angry about something from years ago (if you are referring to slavery). Sure there are black women with preference and try to ward off white men , but unless those men are in the females brain they can’t know what they are angry about.
I think stereotypes play a huge role in why some white men don’t approach or even bad experiences.
On top of that I find it hard to imagine some black female going postal over a guy saying hi and being polite.
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When do you see Asian women head bobbing and getting aggressive on a man? .
Don’t know what you are but it’s easier to say that if you’re not a woman or not a black woman. But let’s be honest and fair. How much do you ever see Asian or white women getting approached in the crude way that so many black women are approached? I see this happen to some of my black women colleagues when we’re out sometimes. Some men get so “familiar” with black women. Maybe black women feel they have to protect themselves?
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@Jayis
I can only say that I don’t think he has met the Asian women I have or the white women for that matter. This docile white woman stereotype if false.
“Maybe black women feel they have to protect themselves?”–I have heard some black women speak on this. How men (including black men) feel they are entitled to have them. Touch them and be inappropriate with them.
“On top of that I find it hard to imagine some black female going postal over a guy saying hi and being polite.”—To clarify not saying it would not happen.
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I am sure your experience is different, but I don’t think black women hold grudges or are angry about something from years ago (if you are referring to slavery).
Sharina, many of the statements that some black women make on this board show clearly that they are very angry at the masses of white people, not just the whites who have been proven to have done bad things to blacks.
but unless those men are in the females brain they can’t know what they are angry about.
You’re right. But lots of men don’t like women who give off angry vibes, no matter what. Even if a woman is angry, it doesn’t help her to show it. Angry people turn other people off. As I said, you will hardly ever find black men showing their anger when they’re around a group of white women. They’re usually nice or smiling and joking and acting like they’re lots of fun. I’ve never seen an asian woman acting angry either.
I think stereotypes play a huge role in why some white men don’t approach or even bad experiences.
I think black women could flip those stereotypes if they adopted a softer demeanor since we all see so many black women in so many settings everyday.
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Black women have done nothing socially or economically to oppress white women or negatively impact the quality of their lives, so…the hate and jealousy accusation is at best null and void.
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Deconstructing white supremacy should NEVER be trivalized as anger.
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This docile white woman stereotype if false.
The docile white woman is definitely false! When white women get angry or aggressive, the black men I see with white women in my family don’t take it the same way they do when the woman is a black woman. I see it in both cases since I have black colleagues and friends.
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@Jayis
“Sharina, many of the statements that some black women make on this board show clearly that they are very angry at the masses of white people, not just the whites who have been proven to have done bad things to blacks”—I was under the impression you were referring to personal experience outside of this forum. .
“You’re right. But lots of men don’t like women who give off angry vibes, no matter what. Even if a woman is angry, it doesn’t help her to show it. Angry people turn other people off. As I said, you will hardly ever find black men showing their anger when they’re around a group of white women.”—Fair enough.
“I’ve never seen an asian woman acting angry either.”—Oh but when you do you will not forget it. lol
“I think black women could flip those stereotypes if they adopted a softer demeanor since we all see so many black women in so many settings everyday.”— Should it not be a change on the part of the individuals that believe in those stereotypes? Sure a black woman could fake a smile when she is having a bad day or show no expression, but it would not change the fact that the person who believes in those stereotypes will still see and believe what they want.
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Granted though I am always smiling so I guess my idea of the “angry” black woman is tainted.
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@ Jayis
“the black men I see with white women in my family don’t take it the same way they do when the woman is a black woman”–Do you mind elaborating? I am curious about the difference in responses you have noticed.
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Many of the most staunch “Afrocentric” “Black Nationalist” men that think white men are the problem have in fact been married to white women.
Jayis, i think you are heavily relying on stereotypes of Black women to prove that we are somehow less than simply because many of us choose to voice the mistreatment and maligning of our minds and bodies by white men, women and sometimes Black men in a historical context. Whether we like it or not, those power dynamics still play out in Black women’s daily lives–much like what Peanut was expressing up thread. Peanut, by her disposition on this blog and hers is more than likely a sweet, agreeable and feminine young Black woman. Which Many upon Many Black women are. Not once since i have been working in professional settings have i encountered single Black women who were scaring off men with their “militant” ideas, speech or attitudes as they are for the most part married, engaged or on the cusps of being engaged. Yet those Black women get thrown into some category of “less than” to further justify the mistreatment of Black women and girls…
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No…what needs to change is the blame being placed on Black women and Black men for their own oppression through white supremacists comments like the one you just made.
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ok yes there are some cold black women and black men, but sometimes some may have had a bad day so I try not to judge based on one encounter, now if they are like that everytime I see them and don’t say hi back then I leave them alone.
”you think of the hardest looking-looking, meanest acting woman you know, one of those who never smiles. well, every day you see that woman you look her right in the eyes and tell her I think you’re beautiful, and you watch what happens. The first day she may curse you out, the second day too- but you watch you keep on, after a while one day she’s going to start smiling just as soon as you come in sight.” – Malcolm x
I know people don’t want to approach people that are like that but if complimenting someone can make them smile then the reverse is also true, picking on them and being disrespectful can cause them to not smile. Nobody comes into this world being a depressed child walking around with their head down. This has happened over time for people to become the way they are. Black women don’t try to hide how we feel sometimes and that is good and bad.
If someone is constantly told they are beautiful and worthy u get the michelle Obama’s of black women, but if they are told they are not worthy and ugly what do u think that does, it causes the reverse the “bitter” angry black woman. When I was a child I was outgoing and smiled at everybody, but life and dealing with certain situations shakes confidence and makes u not smile, I do smile at people who smile at me but other than that not too much.
Other women may look happy and all that but sometimes they are hiding their true feelings and they’ve been told they are beautiful and amazing and all this other stuff. Women in general are told to smile even when we don’t feel like it because just like with when whites want black ppl to smile so they feel at ease men want women to smile all the time to put them at ease and to accommodate them. Black women have had to deal with males acting like they have a privilege to our bodies, it was white men during slavery/jim crow, and now its men that catcall and harass women. We have no personal space it seems it is rented out to everybody from ppl touching our hair or touching us without permission but treating other women with respect because that is reserved for the non black women.
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Black women have been told we are ugly or certain features are ugly since we were children from the media as well as parents. just look at the community telling darker skinned sisters they are pretty for a dark skin girl, but will be mad if a white person were to say u are articulate for a black person. Or telling certain black people that they have good hair or are beautiful simply for their existence but will be mad that white ppl make biased studies saying they are beautiful and praise whiteness simply for existing. we can call out what others do and spot the bs way they act towards us but when it comes to our own its a blind spot we can’t see how some of us disrespect our own people, stereotype our own ppl and sound just like the whites that do the same to us.
White people stereotype black men as thugs, no good, baby daddies, etc then some black males turn around and use stereotypes about black women. also can some of u stop using the word thug we don’t like that the media tries to make trayvon out to be a thug but i see some black males saying black women get with thugs and using thug to describe a man that may be a womanizer or immature. A womanizer is not a thug, a baby daddy is not a thug, an immature fool is not a thug, a man that isn’t u is not a thug. when white people were trying to hush black men up and black men turn around and try to hush black women up. White people use stats to say black men are no good then some black males turn around and use those same stats to say black women are no good. I am tired of seeing people play into things and one minute calling out white people for providing fake stats on them but then turning around and doing the same thing to somebody else.
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Very well said, mstoogood4yall… just another “cultural” difference that people need to learn and understand.
Smiling doesn’t always indicate “sincerity”… because I’m sure many of us have been around people who smile in peoples faces, then turn around and say something mean.
The meanest looking black woman many times are some of the nicest women… show them sincerity and you’ll get it back
I break the ice by talking about hair, (which I know a little something about) because black women always want to stereotype me as a “stuck up exotical who thinks she’s cute” — and I’ve heard from some, that they assumed I wasn’t going to talk to them — to me, I think it’s important to treat people the same way you want to be treated.
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rofl, ok so black women are emasculating and not good women but white women are rofl. Ok then why did the white feminists attack michelle Obama for saying her children come first. I thought white women were the perfect women and mothers but *gasp* how dare a black woman say she is a mother first how dare she go with her motherly instincts. we get attacked for being good or bad mothers. can’t win either way
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@ linda
yeah some ppl are insincere with their smiles and the way they try to act like they care. we have to stop stereotyping each other and looking for confirmation bias. imo people can’t fully judge someone unless they’ve talked to them too many times ppl judge and think oh this person must be stuck up or rude but u won’t know unless u say hi if they say nothing back leave them alone. my mom and I went to the store one day and a black man was rounding up the shopping carts and gave us a mean look as if we invaded his space, my mom tried to break the ice and said hi hows it going and he said nothing. Now I won’t judge him based on that encounter other than he may have had a bad day now if I see him again and he still acts like that then I can probably assume he is just rude. but a lot of people that say black women are bitter & angry have encountered a couple of black women that didn’t smile or whatever once and may never have seen those women again and don’t fully know if they were having a bad day or were shy.
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bahwhwahwa
tommy vid. what real black woman would care if tiger woods dates white women I sure don’t as he isn’t even black as he says he’ cablasian and lets white ppl make fun of him. its hilarious that he said black women u get upset that tiger woods doesn’t date yall but he has a non black mother and has no obligation to. Funny because I hear many black males complain about halle berry not dating black men anymore yet doesn’t she also have a non black parent so she doesn’t have an obligation to. proves my point that some ppl want to complain about something but then turn around and try to hush somebody else up for complaining about the same thing. either way whether its tiger or halle and neither one dates black ppl they both have black fathers and non black mothers and so u can’t blame black women for them not wanting to date black ppl or letting white ppl use them. aw i’m actually glad about that.
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“cough” “cough” @ : o l ) >
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Phoebe said:
Agreed.
The world is not an equal place.
This is the world where any PoC has to be twice as good to have half of what they deserve. Where to be a powerful and confident woman is to be labeled “witch”, where a black woman is somehow “scary”, yet from what I’ve seen on the North American news, I can can think no black girl or black woman who has ever committed a mass shooting spree in a school or mall or somewhere…
*
I have a Science teacher friend who noticed some of the unfairness of discipline in her school (Southeast London), and how it was loaded to punish girls and any girl child who was not white. She decided to treat all her pupils in absoluteness strictness based on the morality of their actions, therefore whenever anyone of them was harassed or subjected to sexualized bullying, she would hear out them out, and punish the perpetrator.
In the cases she encountered, it was young males who did the harassing and bullying of the girls. (That was her experience in this time and place, I stress, as situations vary.)
What these young harassers relied upon to get away scot-free time after time, was the culture of:
– “ everybody must be equally blamed”,
-“retaliation is never justified”,
-“hurting others’ feelings” — all no-nos.
These perspectives are common in schools and social situations to keep girls and women in their places. It’s a similar mechanism to this one: calling out racism is even worse than being a racist.
What she told saw was that speaking out and speaking up against mistreatment carries punishment. Silence is easier, and so much “cuter”.
SHAMING plays a huge part. Shame someone into silence, that’s right!
Disciplining by shaming is the way to stop someone defending themselves. This form of control makes no distinction between violence and self-defence.
What my Chemistry teacher friend discovered was that the dice was loaded against the girls in her classes who would not tolerate their mistreatment, dehumanization and marginalization.
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Jayis, i think you are heavily relying on stereotypes of Black women to prove that we are somehow less than simply because many of us choose to voice the mistreatment and maligning of our minds and bodies by white men, women and sometimes Black men in a historical context.
I thought about this. I think usually black women are defending themselves when they speak out about their mistreatment or act aggressive. I know that some of the black women I know feel they have to be on guard against things that I don’t ever worry about. The black women I know are on guard a lot even with regular men in everyday situations, so they tense up. A black friend of mine got really tense about going into a convenience store when she saw a group of men outside the store because she said the men would try to touch her. So I went in the store for her because I knew the men wouldn’t bother me. I only worry about the real psycho men. Not the regular kind.
I think that some men usually try to see non-black women as being a lot nicer than we are. This is the case with the interracial relationships in my family. I think that white women and maybe asian women have a protective barrier that black women don’t have. I don’t blame black women for defending themselves. When people defend themselves, they can’t have smiling faces. Defending usually comes off as angry or aggressive.
Whether we like it or not, those power dynamics still play out in Black women’s daily lives–much like what Peanut was expressing up thread. Peanut, by her disposition on this blog and hers is more than likely a sweet, agreeable and feminine young Black woman.
On the one hand, you are saying that power is playing out against black women but you then say that black women aren’t acting angry and aggressive when they defend themselves. Or you’re saying it’s a stereotype. That’s not logical. Who will defend black women if they don’t defend themselves?
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its funny how the “black” males & females that praise whites and stereotype blacks of the opposite s3x are never on at the same time. I seriously think they come in at different times to get a rile out of both genders. I think it would be entertaining to see colalover and this guy go at it. I know one will always reappear but never at the same time, it will always be one minute black women are attacked then the next black men and repeat until the real black men and women start attacking each other thinking it was another black person when its not. I don’t trust anybody that comes in and never posts but just posts on hot topic threads I think they are another race person. I know I can’t prove it but I have a feeling these kind of ppl are not black but posing as such to get blacks fighting and they know which buttons to push.
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“Who will defend black women if they don’t defend themselves?”
u know that is an interesting question but sends mixed messages, as one minute some black males are saying black women step back and be quiet so we can defend u then the next its defend urself then we’ll defend u?
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u know that is an interesting question but sends mixed messages, as one minute some black males are saying black women step back and be quiet so we can defend u then the next its defend urself then we’ll defend u?
If I were going into a store and a man touched me or tried to touch me, my next act would be to call the police on the pervert or tell the store owner to call the police. I know those men would run away and not come back. My black girlfriend said she wouldn’t do that. Instead black women will sometimes try to get aggressive with men like that and the men then retaliate. Why not just call the police every time? Some of those men are probably doing the same thing to young girls.
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@Jayis
“Why not just call the police every time?”
From my experience the cops just look at you like you are crazy.
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There is absolutely no contradiction in what i said.
Power dynamics (racism and sexism) do affect the lives of Black women and girls and it is in the interest of Black people to discuss these realities honestly to work for change, be darned what anyone chooses to label it.
The word “angry” (when applied to Black women’s demeanors and dispostions)is a stereotypical adjective used mostly for the purpose of silencing Black women in their own communities and on the world stage to further continue the System of white supremacy as it relates not only to Black women, but to Black lives.
I think now though, with so many platforms in which Black women are using (Twitter, Blogs, Vlogs, Youtube) to voice our disdain with inequalities (and, Black men have joined in), the word “angry” is going to lose much of its stronghold because these spaces and places have gained momentum. Meaning: the white supremacists both Black and white will soon have to come up with a much more sophisticated tactic in trying to silence Black women.
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@Bulanik,
Everything. You. Said.
Just wow!
🙂
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Also @Jayis,
i reread your last comment to me, and unfornunately i think you misread my earlier post..
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wow ok jayis but first you’d have to get away from said pervert and if he has u cornered u will have to scream plus fight a bit to get away. Not everybody is sympathetic and did u see the vid of the black woman that got spit and cursed out by a white man nobody did anything and there were other men there and no in case u were wondering the black woman did not fight back or curse the man she just stood there and recorded it. idc what anybody says black ppl period have to learn to protect ourselves, black women do as well because not many will come to our aid not even sometimes black males. im sorry but u kinda sound like the white ppl that were saying trayvon should’ve just went home and not escalated the situation and ppl were angry about that but a black woman defends herself and omg she should just cal the police. we all know the police are not fully trustworthy even calling them doesn’t mean they will help, there are many black women in Chicago that called the police and reported rapes and nothing was done about it now their cases will never be solved and even if it is the statue of limitations has ran out on many. the police are not always there to protect.
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I’m not saying people shouldn’t call the police but if they are doing something to u to prevent u from doing so u will have to take matters into ur own hands. but yes u should try to call the police first.
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“imo people can’t fully judge someone unless they’ve talked to them too many times ppl judge and think oh this person must be stuck up or rude but u won’t know unless u say hi if they say nothing back leave them alone.”
_ _ _
I’m shy but am usually friendly towards anyone who’s friendly towards me (and I get quite a good many stalkers IRL because of it). Anyway, in one supermarket where I used to shop, there was a BM worker who I never saw anywhere in the store other than the frozen foods aisle (where he was typically mopping etc). Sometimes I’d see him chatting with one of the other Black female customers, but I myself would just pass by and continue with my shopping.
One day as I passed by him, he muttered loud enough for me to hear him say that he bet if he’d been a white guy, I probably would have spoken to him (um, no, I most certainly would NOT initiate conversation with some random WM simply because he is white).
For some reason this particular person was delusional enough to believe that he is entitled to acknowledgement from any and all BW who dare to cross his path in the supermarket, even as he himself offered no initial acknowledgement of them — unless, of course, it was to chastise them for not speaking first.
I just kept strolling past him as if I hadn’t said a word.
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@ pay it forward
yah i’m kinda shy myself pretty much just around new ppl,but i will say hi or smile to anybody that does the same to me. for me it isn’t about race of who is more friendly u win some and u lose some. sometimes other black ppl say hi other times its white ppl either way I say hi back. usually other black people will say hi and sometimes look relieved when they see another black person especially if it is not a lot of us in certain areas. when my family and I went on vacation to corpus Christie a couple yrs ago well its not a lot of black ppl there and the black ppl we did see were friendly and looked happy to see another black person, but a lot of the whites were kind of rude and just stared but when my dad and I went deep sea fishing the white ppl were nice there. I think its different enviornments that affect how some people react to others. when my mom and I went to louisiana to visit family and we went to walmart of all places , but the people there were very friendly and even other customers were asking if we needed help finding anything both white and black it was in a predominately black area. There are good and bad people and friendly and rude people but I do notice how certain areas affect how different races of people interact with others.
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But I am cautious about smiling or complimenting an attractive black or Latina women (that is unknown to me) for fear that I may offend them.
I don’t know Roadside, I had two old white men come up to me and compliment me on my looks! Mind you one could hardly see and the other was drunk. Perhaps you need Dutch courage Roadside?
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LOL, Herneith!
Well, at least ya didn’t call him :Road Kill”.
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*”Road Kill”
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I don’t even bring up racism around white men offline, so I call b.s. on your whole statement if ANYTHING white men bring up race indirectly by making racist comments iN THE PRESENT day or making stupid comments about Black people, so nonsense on that…comment
I may have referenced one of your comments, but I wasn’t talking about just you. I’ve read lots of comments here where some blacks talk about what happened hundreds of years ago racially speaking, or decades ago. I didn’t say “you” say anything racially –offline to a white man. You and plenty other black women talk about how racist white men are, online and in the media though. You are being widely read and heard. Notice how black men rarely write or talk about white women as racists. So when a white woman meets a black man, she doesn’t automatically feel that he thinks she’s racist.
Some whites are racist against asians too and I’ll bet asian women hate that, but asian women don’t make it a point to rant about it in the media. That’s a part of my point. Some of you don’t specify which white men. You make it sound like a blanket accusation against all white men. Then I read where some blacks accuse whites of making blanket accusations against all blacks. I know some of you will say that’s different, but what I’m saying is that it has its negative impact and mostly on black women.
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The reality is that they held these positions because of their lack of status and respect, not because of anything good. That shows me BW can rationalize anything.
I know white women who employ black women as child care workers and they employ them because they feel these women will take good care of their children. Yes, they’re affordable but it doesn’t mean they’re deficient. White women wouldn’t hire these women to spend hours and hours of time with their children everyday if they thought these women were deficient in any way. They primarily see black women as being warm, generous, nurturing, and trustworthy. These mothers wouldn’t leave their babies with deficient women.
It sounds like you are trying to strip black women of all of their positives. I have 2 white women relatives who have black man significant others and these women are both overweight. One is seriously so. Plenty of white women are overweight. There are plenty more asian women in the world than white women.Why is it that white men don’t replace them with thin asian women.
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@Pay It Forward
Road Kill seems more accurate. LOL
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“Or it could be that they are just loud and angry and need to chill smh.”—Or it could be in your best interest to marry a doll or stuff animal as they will not talk back or express any emotion
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@ king
wow u went in lol.
@ sharina
yeah he should marry a doll or he could get this rofl http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pfeEbhp4C2M/TFQ5etzCuqI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/YYA-leOTfP4/s1600/human-vs-robot-14.jpg
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@Jayis
“I’ve read lots of comments here where some blacks talk about what happened hundreds of years ago racially speaking, or decades ago.”—Ummm well of course they talk about it, but my question is how is them talking about it equal to them being angry or showing anger towards white men. It has been established that said white men don’t really know what they are angry about or if they are indeed angry because of their fear or failure to act.
“Notice how black men rarely write or talk about white women as racists.”—You might want to read the comment section of white woman’s tears or something along those lines. Other than in here I rarely see blog posts on white men being racist. In fact I run across BWE white man praise sites. So that theory is void too.
“Some of you don’t specify which white men. You make it sound like a blanket accusation against all white men.”—Some actually are talking about all whites, but for those that are not they usually put racist whites or specify.
“I know some of you will say that’s different, but what I’m saying is that it has its negative impact and mostly on black women.”—Why should we excuse what some blacks do? They made the statement so it should reflect on them right? And I am not understanding the logic behind what blacks do effecting only black women or mostly black women.
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@ Jayis
You are relying on somethings that make little or no sense to prove your point of the angry black woman warding off the white man. I think there are different factors that come into play and one of the big factors is choice. It is illogical to believe that because a person discusses slavery that they won’t be interested or may get angry at a potential white suitor. Some of the women in here are married now to white men. So can say that their husbands are wiser or stronger than the average white men?
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You are relying on somethings that make little or no sense to prove your point
I’m saying that I usually read where black women accuse white men of being racists. Lots of black women are very vocal in expressing their feelings. There are even plenty of comments here like that. Their implication is that all white men are racists. It’s not common to read where black men make those strident accusations against white women. I’m not saying they never do, but it’s not the common consensus that white women hear or repeat to each other.
I’m saying it’s the same as when whites go on and on about black male criminals. Both give the impression that all white men and all black men are guilty when there are only a small percentage of deliberate perpetrators in each case. Do innocent black men want to be around whites who think they’re criminals?
I know that, by default, white men benefit from structural racism but it doesn’t take much to realize that white men who don’t commit racist acts don’t want to be around anyone, black women or otherwise who think they’re racists. I would say this is just another small factor in why the interracial romance level of interest is less between white men towards black women.
I am not trying to silence black women. I’m saying that when black women express their strident feelings in the media, they are being heard.
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@Jayis
I don’t disagree that there are comments like that but I can straight out name the ones who do it. So it comes down to you are basing you analysis on the commentary of 3 women possibly 4(I know because they make it on other threads) and solely on what you have read. So I would say based on this board alone it is also not common or not something that can prove what is common among black women in general. Though I don’t discount this may be the issue where you live or perhaps in other areas as well.
“Do innocent black men want to be around whites who think they’re criminals?”—No, but it is also a matter of knowing what a person thinks. You can not tell that simply by looking at a person and it takes further conversation to truly determine that. For example I don’t hold all white men accountable for what whites say in here, so it is not wise to try to hold all blacks or black women accountable for what some say in here.
“otherwise who think they’re racists”—I agree except the issue is not the other wise. The issue is that black women are the ones being pushed out. Even though there are those of the otherwise who verbally and openly express dislike of whites, they are still getting the approaches where black women who express it as so are not.
“I would say this is just another small factor in why the interracial romance level of interest is less between white men towards black women.”—Even small factors should be explored.
“I am not trying to silence black women. I’m saying that when black women express their strident feelings in the media, they are being heard.”—I know and I believe that you mean well, but my goal is to point out things that simply do not make sense to me so they can be discussed and explored.
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“The reality is that they held these positions because of their lack of status and respect, not because of anything good.”
_ _ _
Allowing someone for whom you have no respect into your household so that they can rear your little Dakotas & Madisons for you…
…yes, that makes perfect sense.
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My apologies.
I hit the “Post Comment” button before I noticed my old Caffeine & Nicotine username.
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No worries. 🙂
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@ King
In answer to Trinidad African’s comment:
…almost all products of single mothers.”
Your reply was:
Yes! What also “baffles” me is this: I’ve known 2 single fathers in my life, and I can tell you this — because they were Single Fathers, they were perceived as ABSOLUTE HEROS , and regarded as Princes Among Men Amounting to the Shining Apex of Manhood. Lol!
They were admired and accolades were loaded upon them.
I’ve even heard that single dads are even known to breast-feed too!
(http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/This_is_what_single_fathers_do.JPG/1280px-This_is_what_single_fathers_do.JPG&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:This_is_what_single_fathers_do.JPG&h=720&w=1280&sz=147&tbnid=RASxJKiD_siiaM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=220&zoom=1&usg=__mE6hSnaBPENJpthan70dflJcnSc=&docid=Je87Za6O46hSrM&sa=X&ei=r1SfUtiHCczX7Abkg4HIAw&ved=0CEIQ9QEwCQ)
Seriously though, these fathers I knew DID also face discrimination and incomprehension, judgment and isolation at times, along with other struggles — but they weren’t short of sympathy, and it never put off potential consorts…
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@ Sharina
@ Jayis
Sharina has clarified a number of points Jayis brought up that simply do not make sense in order that they may be discussed and explored.
I’d like to suggest the possibility that Jayis could examine his/her standpoint.
Jayis said:
{my emphasis in bold}
Jayis, I have not read all your comments, but I am getting the impression that you not only directly and indirectly rely on racist/sexist stereotype, but that
you are using the “Tone Argument” to hush the observation that you are depending on them to put your point across.
Abagond explained the Tone Argument this way:
“The tone argument is where you object to someone else’s argument based on its tone: it is too angry, too hateful, not calm enough, not nice enough, etc. It is a logical fallacy because none of those things has anything to do with whether the truth was spoken. It is used to derail and silence.
The privileged use it against the marginalized. This post looks at one case of that: white racists in America using it against blacks when talking about racism.
Examples:
“I am offended.”
“We would listen to you if you said it more nicely.”
“You are so full of hate.”
Blacks are angry, uppity, whining, etc….
The whites who use it have no interest whatsoever in what you have to say – no matter what your tone. The tone thing is just to shut you up and dismiss you as an unreasonable person. What you said made them feel uncomfortable and tone is an excuse not to deal with it seriously.
No matter how nicely and calmly and reasonably you make your points some will still say you are whining or angry or full of hate. In their heads whites are so wonderful that to say anything bad about them can only come from hatred – no matter how many facts back you up. So a bad tone can get read into your words whether it is there or not.
If it were as simple as having the right tone then racism would have died out ages ago….” {my emphasis in bold}
(The full article is here:
********************
Chester M. Pierce coined the term “microaggression” to refer to minor slights that are subtle and even subliminal but nonetheless contribute to a culture of harassment. The real trick to a microaggression is that it is not overt or direct, and can go unchecked, and it is an experience many PoC undergo everyday, in many ways and in many forms.
My own feeling is that if someone is sincere in their desire to have a dialogue, they might be sensitive to the reasons behind the narratives of those individuals they do not fully understand. It might do harm at all to take that on board and reflect about it, rather than depending on stereotypes to explain those narratives…
Abagond wrote about microaggressions as well:
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The whites that had black women taking care of their kids imo did so because they knew if a black person hurt their child they would be held accountable, since if a black person so much as didn’t answer them correctly they could be punished they knew black ppl were afraid and they knew the law was on their side. all they had to do was accuse a black person of doing something and they could be lynched. It shows how arrogant they are they said all that stuff about black ppl and enslaved blacks yet trusted some with their kids after all the sh3t they put blacks through but whites knew some wouldn’t do anything as if they did death would come to them. it is insanity it would be like a hyena letting a lion babysit for the day like yeah I know I stole ur meal and bit u the other day but watch my hyena cub while I go out.
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as if.
know what?
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@ Bulanik
u right about single fathers, women with kids omg, men with kids oh how cute. I think either way the mother is blamed, she is there for her kids the father isn’t? she must have ran him off or picked a thug. a guy raises the kids, must be the mothers fault not there for her kids and this man has to raise his kids by himself shame on her. granted I do know women are the nurturers and provide milk and all that but its not all on the woman to care for the kids or to keep a relationship going. it amazes me how ppl misuse the word single mother, and act like the only single mother there is are the ones that laid down with an irresponsible man. Single mothers are also divorcees, widows, guardians of another family members child, and just because a woman is single with kids that doesn’t mean the kids don’t have a father or a father figure it means their parents are not together anymore.
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again, its ok to pick someone dont look like you
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and I also believe ppl use the word single mother to describe a woman that has kids with no father when to me that doesn’t really describe it well enough. Because a single mother could be anybody not just the stereotype of not having a father for her kids and raising them by herself. I think the term fatherless children or children growing up without a father best describes it as not all single mothers are doing it by themselves but are co parenting. But I think ppl don’t like saying fatherless children because it puts the blame on the male, and a lot of times ppl don’t want to do that but will blame the female.
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Interesting read. The issues above played a part in how I met Tammy.
I’m a white man and I met my partner who is Black on Matchcom about five years ago and we have been together ever since. My perquisite at the time was I wanted to date people who lived within 10 miles of me because in L.A. traffic is pretty bad. Los Angels is a diverse city and dating outside your race is not that unusale. One of the things we that have in common is hiking and finding a woman of any race who likes climbing up and down mountains and camping out is hard to find.
Early in the courtship I went to her place and noticed she had a book and I’m paraphrasing here titled ” A Black women’s guide to keeping a Black man”. I was surprised and was like what’s up with that. She then told me that she originally had no intention of dating out side her race. She had contacted a number of professional Black men from the dating site but none contacted her back. She then told me she presumed they were dating White women. Tammy is from the East coast, is a travelers nurse and she thinks Black men on the West coast have different priorities. In short she dated me out of default. lol
Tammy was the first Black women I had ever dated and like most White people who think their not racist I ways impervious to the Empire around me. I had never heard of White privilege before and it took me awhile to get my mind wrapped around it. It required me to question everything I had been taught, everything that I knew to be true, from the views of my parents, to the tenants of religion and ideology, to see the Empire for what it is and to understand that me being White represents a part of that which I can’t extract myself from.
Our relationship is close and loving. We have an intimacy that neither of us have ever experienced before. Were not sure where that comes from but know were very fortunate to have something like that.
Interesting read. The issues above played a part in how I met Tammy.
I’m a white man and I met my partner who is Black on Matchcom about five years ago and we have been together ever since. My perquisite at the time was I wanted to date people who lived within 10 miles of me because in L.A. traffic is pretty bad. Los Angels is a diverse city and dating outside your race is not that unusale. One of the things we that have in common is hiking and finding a woman of any race who likes climbing up and down mountains and camping out is hard to find.
Early in the courtship I went to her place and noticed she had a book and I’m paraphrasing here titled ” A Black women’s guide to keeping a Black man”. I was surprised and was like what’s up with that. She then told me that she originally had no intention of dating out side her race. She had contacted a number of professional Black men from the dating site but none contacted her back. She then told me she presumed they were dating White women. Tammy is from the East coast, is a travelers nurse and she thinks Black men on the West coast have different priorities. In short she dated me out of default. lol
Tammy was the first Black women I had ever dated and like most White people who think their not racist I ways impervious to the Empire around me. I had never heard of White privilege before and it took me awhile to get my mind wrapped around it. It required me to question everything I had been taught, everything that I knew to be true, from the views of my parents, to the tenants of religion and ideology, to see the Empire for what it is and to understand that me being White represents a part of that which I can’t extract myself from.
Our relationship is close and loving. We have an intimacy that neither of us have ever experienced before. Were not sure where that comes from but know were very fortunate to have something like that.
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on Tue 3 Dec 2013 at 23:00:20
Sharina wrote:
“No worries. 🙂 ”
_ _ _
Aww, thanks for the response Sharina. You’re a doll! 🙂
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Well, okie dokie then lol
Abagond, It seems I forgot to also ask that you delete the misplaced colon which is under Sharina’s name!
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@ Pay it Forward
I think I got it right this time. If not, let me know.
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deepdkchocolate said
@ Ebonymonroe, what? I think it is mostly propoganda and noone has any real stats to support their assertions. analyzing a core of 10% and applying it to the whole does not reliable statistics make.
…………………………………………
No, no, no, I wasn’t talking about it representing all Black men and their feelings towards Black women, I was explaining that they make a big deal out of it because in the charts of interracial marriage, they come out first among all men.
……………………………………………….
Wow @Jaylis
Lol at reading things on the internet and applying them to the entire Black female population. This is what we call racism, and this is what Black women are speaking on when we discuss it on here, lol.
I think all you non Black women shouldn’t worry about Black women too much, we’re doing well in school, in money, in credit, we’re getting better in family and illegitimacy rates. Why don’t you worry about your own mess and stop concerning yourself with Black women, because while we’re getting better and better, many of the “groups” dishing out their faux sociological verbal dissections, have an increasingly messy front door step.
I already covered the false and hyped stereotypes that have been brought up again, so I won’t bother, as I pretty much undid them all during my debate with Adonis in this very thread and in the “open thread.” But I can see people will continue to hold fast to them to make themselves feel better. Don’t worry sistas, many of us are doing very well just keep it up.
@Peanut, I do not understand why you cling to and post every study or video that you find, degrading Black women. I say this with nothing but love and respect, but I don’t get it.
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@Bulanik
These perspectives are common in schools and social situations to keep girls and women in their places.
I have a zero tolerance for men who harass or bully women. That’s why I told my friend to call the police every time a man tries to touch her as she enters a store or if she harassed in any other way.
It’s a similar mechanism to this one: calling out racism is even worse than being a racist.
We may be talking about 2 different aspects of a related situation. I’ve read speculation here as to why more white men don’t go out with or marry black women.My comments were meant to point to ONE factor in why more white men are less likely to approach black women in a romantic fashion. I’m not trying to silence black women from “calling out” racism. When or if a white man thinks about approaching a black woman who may appeal to him, I would bet he is not interested in getting into a discussion with a black woman who wants to “call out” racism.
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@Ebonymonroe
Wow @Jaylis
Lol at reading things on the internet and applying them to the entire Black female population. This is what we call racism, and this is what Black women are speaking on when we discuss it on here, lol.
I never said “entire.”
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Jayis, going by your non-answers, I’m afraid I can’t take you seriously.
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Jayis,
The part in which you say that society rarely decontructs white female racism is true. And, as it sometimes relates to white women/Black men interracial relationships can also be observed, yet the mistake that MANY Black people (both men and women) make is that they believe since white women are women and belong to the “fairer” sex, that they are immune to harboring racists thoughts, ideas and benefitting from a system (white supremacy) that could not survive without their cooperations and wombs (since it is only white women who give birth to white children in such a vicious, unequal system).
The only reason for this is that white women are allowed to play “good” cop, while all white men are automatically suspected of being “bad” cop, and believe it or not, it benefits BOTH white men and white women, and i believe racist white men and women would rather it be that way.
Although Black men who prefer white women to all other women may not verbalize the microaggressions (a term and reality Bulanik mentioned up thread), racial mental violence (white women telling their Black significant others that Black women are his problem and ultimately all Black people) by their white significant others, it does not mean that it does not take place in such relationships. I have Black men in my life who have gone through such trauma by having relationships with white women.
However, just because all of this exists does not justify the embellishment and constant repetition of stereotypes about Black women–stereotypes that have caused the rape, humiliation (in schools and workplaces) and sometimes murder of thousands of Black women.
I can say in my experience that many of the Black women i have come in contact with prefer Black men as they have them as mates, boyfriends and husbands, but this does not mean that they were/are opposed to serious white men being their partners had the opportunity presented itself before their current relationship, nor do they go around condeming white men. No, when Black women talk about racism, we are likely analyzing the current behaviors of white people towards Black communities and Black individuals.
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Bulanik, I went back and read your comment to me. You didn’t ask me any questions.
Since this is a thread about interracial relationships and there were speculations and commentary above re some types of them, my comments addressed a factor I’ve heard mentioned as to why more white men don’t approach some of the appealing black women they see.
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@phoebeprunelle
The only reason for this is that white women are allowed to play “good” cop, while all white men are automatically suspected of being “bad” cop, and believe it or not, it benefits BOTH white men and white women, and i believe racist white men and women would rather it be that way.
I agree with you. But who is “allowing” this? Would you expect for white women to admit that they’re just as racist and voluntarily take on 5O% of the blame. Of course, white women and white men both benefit by default from white privilege. But when black and other people think that a white woman is nicer or prettier and treat her better just because she’s white, that’s not her fault.
If white women are telling black men that black women are their problem, then who is to blame for gullible black men listening to them?
Some of you are saying that black women have to “call out racism” and that’s why they’re labeled with the “angry” stereotype. Why is it that it’s mainly black women who have become known for “calling out racism”?
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No, not her individual fault, but it is a byproduct of white supremacy that all white women benefit from whether they like to discuss it or not. White female privilege is the reason why Sarah Jessica Parker is married, but Jessica White is not…
I believe this was your assessment on the matter. Black women are seen as “angry” and stereotyped as such because it is the antithesis of the postive stereotype of white women being agreeable, nurturing, vulnerable, loyal (all feminine attributes). In other words, Black women have to be made to be the polar opposite in order for white women to be seen as the most desired.
Well, this isn’t quite true.
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Black women are seen as “angry” and stereotyped as such because it is the antithesis of the postive stereotype of white women being agreeable, nurturing, vulnerable, loyal (all feminine attributes). In other words, Black women have to be made to be the polar opposite in order for white women to be seen as the most desired.
You may not realize that plenty of black men also agree that black women fit this stereotype as angry. I’ve heard this.
It was commenters here who said that black women are “calling out racism” when they express their views that sometimes fit into that “angry” stereotype. The black men who I’m around are not seen as angry and they never call out anything. All I’m saying is that it doesn’t help black women to be known for this and it doesn’t stop any racism towards them.
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Oh sure, but it has more to do with those particular Black men carrying tons of baggage than it does with any of these stereotypes being true.
You also played right into that line of reasoning though.
Or, so you think, but generally the adjective “angry” is used against Black people who are women for a multitude of reasons that negatively impact both Black men and Black women.
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Not to mention that they are always looking for someone (black women) to place the blame of their failures on.
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@ Jayis
“You may not realize that plenty of black men also agree that black women fit this stereotype as angry. I’ve heard this.”—I am not sure by what standard you would call plenty. If you are referring to the TS crowd then they are about as credible as a mental patient. If you mean the average black man then I disagree in regards to those I have met. Many of them would agree that this is a stereotype aimed at black women and not one that describes or applies to every black female.
AS some may have already pointed out. Are you hearing your information from black men that are trying to impress or get with a white woman or black men who are with black women, interested in dating black women etc?
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Black women are seen as “angry” and stereotyped as such because it is the antithesis of the postive stereotype of white women being agreeable, nurturing, vulnerable, loyal (all feminine attributes). In other words, Black women have to be made to be the polar opposite in order for white women to be seen as the most desired.
Not that I would know either way about a womans point of view 🙂 but, the representation of white women being seen as agreeable, and less agressive or whatever, it is easy to see why this has happened over time – they really dont have anything to be angry about. They are often cossetted, revered and protected in a way that women of other races have not or have not had the ability to be.
Saying that though, redheads are always said to be ‘fiery’ too.
In white women, I think if it was broken down nationally or even geographically, there would be a fair number of ‘aggressive’ women stereotypes too. What I think it is is that black women are perceived as being physically stronger overall and that in turn makes people think that they are more agressive.
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Dah dah dah dah dah……
We must have walked into Mickey Dees, because I’m lovin it!
Yeah, you walked in, put on your hair net, and punched the time clock.
Yeah…, raise them to be men; to have some sense of loyalty and identity; to have the common sense not to buy into the old white-washed stereotypes; maybe they can even get an education so they won’t have to work at McDonald’s when they’re 35 years old.
What kind of FOOLl would criticize a man for raising children, (regardless of their parentage.) This is just another example of your utter moral bankruptcy.
Permission to treat the witness as hostile, your Abagond?
Hey SELLOUT? Why don’t you try cracking a book? Nannies raised children well into their early teens. Do you think they were nursing them all that time? Can you really be this obtuse? I’ll warrant you have never even read a single paragraph about the lives of antebellum negro nannies, have you? Take this the cure for your ignorance, sluggard.
Source: “More Slavery at the South,” by a Negro Nurse, Independent, 25 January 1912, 196–200.
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@ Jayis
We all probably know now what the subject of this thread is, and your speculations and commentary is also clear.
In my comment to you I made a suggestion:
Namely, that you reflect on your stereotype-dependent standpoint.
Additionally, if what I was suggesting was not plain enough, I provided ample information for you to read and think about, namely your
— use microaggression and your,
— use of the Tone Argument.
What difference does that make?
Answers are given to suggestions, commentaries, remarks, observations, and so on.
You did not reply to any of information, information which is relevant and important to the issues you raise — preferring to show pure avoidance instead.
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“…around little McKayla and Josh.”
_ _ _
Haha, Good one! Even better than Dakota and Madison. Skyler and Connor would work too, Clara and Hezekiah are good for the mid-19 th century.
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Bulanik, you are “privileging” me with your focused interest in my views. This is just one of the ways that POC give privilege to whites. Why not ask me a specific question since you’ve accused me of non-answering and avoiding.
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Jayis, you don’t have to feel privileged, you know.
You just feel entitled to it…so I won’t extend my help there, my dear.
And, no, why would you need me to repeat myself.
Can’t you understand written English?
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Bulanik, your pursuit of my views is a form of privileging me. POC’s interest in white views is a privilege that whites rarely extend to POC, that is unless they’re influential.
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And if you hate whites because of racism, you can still get a non-black wife. Latinas, Asians, and Native Americans
They’re still closer to white-like than they are black. How can you reject your own to get a white-like wife and still say you hate whites? lol
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I smell a troll.
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Yeah… it stinks, doesn’t it?
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Trinidad African:
The black woman has the opposite problem. Her abundance of testosterone causes her to be less desired by black men and all men. True it makes her more “independent,” but it also makes her mannish, confrontational, and less beautiful.
These differences in test are scientific facts.
Dare I ask TA, are these attributes prevalent in the women of your own family? You know that when you sire a child with a white female that, according to your own scientific beliefs, your girl children will STILL have these so called same attributes because of your blackness dont you?
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@Omnipresent
You know that when you sire a child with a white female that, according to your own scientific beliefs, your girl children will STILL have these so called same attributes because of your blackness dont you?
TA sounds like he despises black women. I was thinking the same thing about him. If I had a daughter by a black man, I would be wary of leaving him with her. How would I know he’s not like TA?
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@King,
LMBO!
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So, you are basically saying that you believe Black women fit the bill of being angry and less feminine than their white female counterparts?
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OMG… so now we now have the “Mulattos are the beautify blacks” meme.
This guy comes right off a peanut plantation.
“As an upper middle class black man I’m sick of the underclass refusing to address its pathologies, particularly its matriarchy.”
Ha! I can guarantee that this guy isn’t “upper middle class.” Translate that to mean that he has a job and isn’t typing his posts from prison — Voila! Instant middle class!
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@ King
“Ha! I can guarantee that this guy isn’t “upper middle class.” Translate that to mean that he has a job and isn’t typing his posts from prison — Voila! Instant middle class!”—LMAO
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Trinidad African:
The black woman has the opposite problem. Her abundance of testosterone causes her to be less desired by black men and all men. True it makes her more “independent,” but it also makes her mannish, confrontational, and less beautiful
And:
So silly the female rationalizations. A mixed child is in a different situation than a non-mixed child. Mixed “black” women are often beautiful. Usually when a “black” woman is famous for her appearance, she’s mixed/has non-black genes.
There’s a big difference between mixed women and black women, just as there is a big difference between black women and black men.
Your response has circumnavigated my initial post for what is on the surface a simple question because you cannot avoid the obvious – you cannot determine what attributes a mixed race child will take from what parent. And, not all mixed race kids are automatically aesthetically good to look at just because they are mixed race.
My questions were: Dare I ask TA, are these attributes prevalent in the women of your own family?
You havent answered this. Its a simple question and based on YOUR scientific research, there can only be one answer.
My other question: You know that when you sire a child with a white female that, according to your own scientific beliefs, your girl children will STILL have these so called same attributes because of your blackness dont you?
You have blatantly stated that for a black woman ‘Her abundance of testosterone causes her to be less desired by black men and all men’ and ‘it also makes her mannish, confrontational, and less beautiful’ but you cannot see the hypocrisy and lunacy in the fact that YOU could sire a female child with a white woman that according to your scientific logic WILL have these attributes by sheer definition of the fact they are black and trust me mate, they will be seen as black. Scientifically or otherwise, I doubt you will find that a child with one black parent and one white parent will be categorised as white! Even if their looks dont reflect their black parentage.
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Or, he would know that the majority of upper class Black men (100k or more a year) marry Black women (88%)…
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All ridiculous and backward ideas that we have dealt with ages ago on this blog. You can clearly see that this guy has never taken a science class.
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Sorry for the soon to be repetitious article, Abagond, but it seems it will be necessary for a time for the White supremacists on your blog. . .
Black community 72% out of wedlock birth rate fallacy
Baby Mama Drama: Explaining Conservative Deception About Out-of-Wedlock Births in the Black Community.
Ever since my post two days ago, in which I detailed the way the right, a) distorts evidence about social pathology in black communities with regard to crime and out-of-wedlock childbirth, and b) routinely ignores those pathologies that are prevalent in white spaces, I’ve been bombarded with requests for further clarification. Specifically, about the matter of out-of-wedlock childbearing among black women. Folks are apparently confused by the evidence and would like to better understand what I was saying and why conservative arguments about this issue are entirely fraudulent.
I agree that the data is confusing, and so I will try and explain it as clearly as possible.
First, to recap: when conservatives argue that there is an “illegitimacy” crisis in black America, and that rising out-of-wedlock birthrates are the real cause of black folks’ problems, they demonstrate an inability to actually understand statistics. The fact is, the birth rate for unmarried black women (births per 1000 such women of childbearing age) is dropping, not rising. For black teens, the birth rate has fallen by half since 1970 and is now at its lowest point ever, and for black women generally the out-of-wedlock birthrate is down by about a third in that same period of time.
However, as conservatives note, it is also true that the percentage of black births that are out-of-wedlock as a share of all black births has risen, nearly doubling since 1970, and now stands at just over 72 percent.
Both of these things are true: declining birth rates and fertility rates for unmarried black women (i.e., unmarried black women are increasingly being more and more “responsible” in conservative terms, not less), and also a climbing share of out-of-wedlock kids as a share of all black kids born.
The reason for these seemingly contradictory trends can best be explained like this:
Imagine a community of 100,000 people of childbearing age (50,000 men and 50,000 women), where half the men and women are married and half of each are single. Of the 25,000 single women, imagine that 500 had babies this year. This would represent a very small number, and an unmarried birth rate of 20 babies per 1000 women. You could also represent this by saying that only about 2% of single women in this community would have a baby out of wedlock this year, since most women would have only one child per year, and so the 500 babies born likely represent roughly 500 of the 25,000 women too.
But let’s say that that same year, for whatever reason, only 200 of the married women gave birth. In that case, 500 of the 700 babies born, or over 71 percent of all babies born in this community would be out-of-wedlock! Oh my God! Send out the cultural police! But note, this result would not in any way reflect the widespread misbehavior of single women and their male companions — after all 98 percent of all unmarried women are not giving birth — but rather, it would reflect the fact that married couples were simply having even fewer kids than single women were.
And in fact, that is what has happened in the U.S. Even though single black women have cut back on how many babies they have while unmarried, married black women have cut back even further. So if single black women have reduced their birthrates by a third, but married couples have cut theirs by over half, or even two-thirds (which is the case), then obviously the percentage of births in the black community that are out-of-wedlock will rise.
The reason it is unfair for conservatives to seize upon the latter of these facts while ignoring the context that explains it, is that their argument is first and foremost that black folks need to stop having babies out of wedlock. But the data says they are already cutting back on that, and dramatically so. In other words, the trend lines in that regard are positive. To suggest a pathological — and increasingly so — black culture when it comes to out-of-wedlock childbirth is entirely dishonest. If anything, “black culture” if we really want to suggest it is linked to the decision to bear children out-of-wedlock, must be improving, rather than regressing. So conservatives should be celebrating these trends.
Meanwhile, as I noted — and since black single women are already cutting back on childbearing — there is only one other way that that 72 percent number could be brought down. But it is unlikely that conservative white folks are going to push for it: namely, if black couples started having 5, 6, even 10 kids each, that number (the percentage of black births that are out of wedlock as a percentage of all black births) would be cut in half within a year or so. So, since single black women are already behaving increasingly “responsibly” in terms of their childbearing behavior, how about it white folks? How about we push for a massive increase in married black womens’ fertility? Maybe pass out fertility drugs so they can have triplets and quads? Maybe encourage them to go the “full Dugger family” and have 20? That way, the share of out-of-wedlock births in the black community can plummet and everyone can stop talking about sh*t they don’t understand. Oh, and the black population would also skyrocket, so…
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
………………………………………………
Source Tim Wise
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Four Myths About Black Marriage (often spouted by many White people and coons.)
Is marriage for white people? That question has been asked in one form or another in a series of news reports about the black marriage “crisis.” On the surface, such stories seem to be concerned about black women in search of love, but these media reports have largely served to fuel stereotypes about African Americans. Moreover, by suggesting that too few black men are available to wed, news stories on black marriage have done little more than predict doom and gloom for African-American women who hope to marry. In reality, black marriage isn’t reserved for the likes of Barack and Michelle Obama. Analysis of census data and other figures has debunked much of the misinformation floating around in the media about the black marriage rate.
Black Women Don’t Marry
The barrage of news reports about the black marriage rate gives the impression that African-American women’s chances of walking down the aisle are bleak. A Yale University study found that just 42 percent of black women are married, and a variety of high profile news networks such as CNN and ABC picked that figure up and ran with it. But researchers Ivory A. Toldson of Howard University and Bryant Marks of Morehouse College question the accuracy of this finding. “The often-cited figure of 42 percent of black women never marrying includes all black women 18 and older,” Toldson told the Root.com. “Raising this age in an analysis eliminates age groups we don’t really expect to be married and gives a more accurate estimate of true marriage rates.”
Toldson and Marks found that 75 percent of black women marry before they turn age 35 after examining census data from 2005 to 2009. Moreover, black women in small towns have higher marriage rates than white women in urban centers such as New York and Los Angeles, Toldson remarked in the New York Times.
Educated Black Women Have it Harder
Getting a college degree is just about the worst thing a black woman can do if she wants to get married, right? Not exactly. News stories about black marriage often mention that more black women pursue higher education than black men—by a 2-to-1 ratio according to some reports. But what these pieces leave out is that white women also earn college degrees more than white men do, and this gender imbalance hasn’t hurt white women’s chances at matrimony. What’s more, black women who finish college actually improve their chances of marrying rather than lower them. “Among black women, 70 percent of college graduates are married by 40, whereas only about 60 percent of black high school graduates are married by that age,” Tara Parker-Pope of the New York Times reported. The same trend is at play for black men. In 2008, 76 percent of black men with a college degree married by age 40. In contrast, only 63 percent of black men with just a high school diploma tied the knot. So education increases the likelihood of marriage for both African-American men and women. Moreover, Toldson points out that black women with college degrees are more likely to marry than white female high school dropouts.
Rich Black Men Marry Out
Black men drop black women as soon as they reach a certain level of success, don’t they? While plenty of rap stars, athletes and musicians may choose to date or marry interracially when they achieve fame, the same is not true for the bulk of successful black men. By analyzing census data Toldson and Marks found that 83 percent of married black men who earned at least $100,000 annually got hitched to black women. The same is the case for educated black men of all incomes. Eighty-five percent of black male college graduates married black women. Generally, 88 percent of married black men (no matter their income or educational background) have black wives. This means that interracial marriage should not be held responsible for the singleness of black women.
Black Men Don’t Earn as Much as Black Women
Just because black women are more likely to graduate from college than their male counterparts doesn’t mean that they out-earn black men. Actually, black men are more likely than black women to bring home at least $75,000 annually. Plus, double the number of black men than women make at least $250,000 annually. Because of pervasive gender gaps in income, black men remain the breadwinners in the African-American community.
These numbers indicate that there are more than enough financially successful black men to go around for black women. Of course, not every black woman is looking for a breadwinner. Not every black woman is even seeking marriage. Some black women are happily single. Others are gay, lesbian or bisexual and unable to legally wed those they love. For heterosexual black women in search of marriage, however, the forecast is not nearly as gloomy as has been portrayed in the media.
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College Enrollment for Black Women Hits Record High
EDUCATION | Black Women have surpassed all groups by race and gender for college entrance
By Janks Morton
College Enrollment
For the first time since the US Census has collected data around educational attainment and enrollment, in 2011 African-American women’s enrollment in colleges has hit a record high. According to the analysis of the most recent census data, nearly 1 in 10 of every African-American females are enrolled in colleges and universities, suggesting the prohibitive barriers to entry typically associated with women and minorities may be finally eroding in post-secondary settings.
The “enrollment status of the population”— an annual report from the US Census Bureau’s CPS (current population survey) estimates the percentage of a groups educational attainment by age, sex and racial categories—hit a record 9.7 percent in 2011 for Black Alone and Female metrics, according to the report. This represents a 31 percent increase from 2000 reporting of 7.4 percent.
The average percentage enrollment for the U.S. population is 6.9 percent (6.3 percent for males, 7.5 percent for females.)
The college enrollment rate is one measure of a country, group and individual competitiveness. The rising enrollment rate over the past decade suggests that while factors as the economic downturn, and unemployment and underemployment rates for college graduates remains high 52 percent (Andrew Sum: The Nation’s underemployed in the “Great Recession” of 2007–09,) increasing tuition costs and long-term student debt, most Americans still perceive college attendance as a value-added proposition to becoming competitive . The report shows enrollment for all groups increased 18.9 percent from 2000 to 2011.
African-American Women
The percentage difference between African-American Women and the next closest group is striking and now marks the first time this group (or any other group) has surpassed Asian Males. Black Female College Enrollment at 9.7 percent is a full percentage point above the next group which represents an 11.5 percent enrollment rate above Asian Females. This statistic is equally impressive in that in one year, Black Females and Asian Females surpassed Asian Males as the leading group in College enrollment (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey: October 2010.)
In 2010, the annual report listed Asian Males leading at 9.8 percent and Black Females a close second at 9.6 percent. Asian Females followed in third at 9.5 percent. At the time of this report, no immediate details were available to explain the 10.3 percent drop in Asian Males and the 11.5 percent drop in enrollment data for Asian Females.
African-American Men
African-American Men have also realized significant gains over the 2000-2011 year periods. From the same data series in 2000, the Black Male College Enrollment rate was 5.2 percent and as of 2011, the rate was measured at 7.0 percent, representing a 34.6 percent increase. This is also a first as there is no longer a significant statistical difference between Black Male College Enrollment and White Female (7.1 percent.) From the Department of Education, iPEDS data reporting set in the academic year 2010-2011 there were 1,444,979 Black Males in post-secondary degree granting institutions (US Only/non-duplicated)
So what does this mean?
Overall and despite the never-ending narrative around the social, economic and educational disparities African-Americans may face in these tough times; despite the systemic barriers and the proverbial deck of cards being stacked against a community, the data and evidence provides a ray of hope in a plethora oppositional to the negative imagery and information constantly describing Black culture. The facts make a case counter-intuitive to what “common sense” tells us about African-Americans. Fortunately, this group of resilient and resourceful people, who have always valued education, are once again proving “good sense” trumps the commons.
(Source http://www.blackandmarriedwithkids.com/2013/06/college-enrollment-for-black-women-hits-record-high/)
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Trinidad African:
As an upper middle class black man I’m sick of the underclass refusing to address its pathologies, particularly its matriarchy.
You do realise that for every ‘upper middle class black man’ there are a thousand and one ‘race realists’ who will question how you have the means to be in the class that you say you are in whislt being a black man. They will suspect you of having made it there by dubious means, certainly not honourable or using your ‘intelligence’ because, they dont believe that black men as a whole are as intelligent as their white counterparts.
Oh yeah, they can back it up with numerous scientific examples too!
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. . . And, by the way, both the African American and Hispanic community are at the forefront of the obesity epidemic. Not just African American women, but African American men, Hispanic men, and Hispanic women. It is a matter of economics and cheap GM foods, not an innate problem with self control for African American women.
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. . . And, also, the highest divorce rate is among Black men and White women out of all pairings, so obviously African American women and men marriages have proven more stable than the former, thus far. But I think if a Black man wants to marry a White woman, why not just do that instead of spending your time hating Black women, it’s counterproductive to the drama one claims to be trying to escape, just by way of spending free time spewing negativity. Just live your life in whatever way you choose to and be happy.
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Dude… have you ever read this blog? Most of the things you take as gospel truth have been thoroughly debunked years ago.
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It’s not about African American exceeding Black men, because African American men are now exceeding White men in college enrollment.
At the end of the day, in academia, out of wedlock births, and marriage, all of the statistics do not back what you’re saying.
75% of Black women are marred by 35
In a lifetime, 85% out Black men settle down with Black women.
You bring up Taye Diggs, but forget that the most revered African American Hollywood stars of our time, are all married to Black women: Denzel Washington, Samuel L Jackson, Will Smith, Forest Whitaker. I even remember hearing Tariq Nasheed (who, though I am not a fan of) coming forward and doing an expose on the fact that around 85% of African American athletes are actually married to Black women, they just don’t show it in the media.
You have to understand that Black men are not a monolith, and despite a few in the bunch, not every Black man or woman harbours hatred for the opposite sex of their group. Also, statistically, African American men have been shown to spend the greatest amount of time with their children, across all classes. Many findings are contrary to your low opinion of African American men.
Academically and domestically, the African American community has been making serious strides for a while now, but individuals regurgitate White supremacist myths like they’re going out of style. But, the minute we analyze legitimate data from non biased source without sinister agendas, we discover that they stereotypes, more and more, are becoming a thing of the past.
Just settle down with who you want and be happy. There is no point in wasting your life with hatred. Spend your life loving and building a family with the partner you want.
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Hey troll, not only can’t you read, but you seem to not be able to count either.
According to the U.S. Census, well over 92% of Black men have Black wives no matter the income.
No harm done if you don’t marry a Black woman, because more than plenty of Black men do.
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Trinidad African:
There’s no reason to question my success. My acumen is clear from the get-go.
As for all of that try-hard nonsense regarding black women and college enrollment-that means nothing. Getting an HR degree from a diploma mill is not impressive. The only reason black women outperform black men here is because most underclass black men are worthless jail birds, and that’s due to the underclass’ matriarchal social structure.
Read the Moynihan Report.
I am not questioning your success but the RACE REALISTS will and sadly they are larger in numbers than I care to admit. Also, you cannot be intelligent and be a black male according to the scientific examples they provide so no matter what you say, it cannot be right because science says otherwise, right?
I notice you didnt respond to my question for a THIRD type about the women in your family and whether or not they have the same attributes i.e masculinity, too much testosterone – why is this? I suspect that you cannot quite bring yourself to openly state that they too MUST come under the same scientific brush that you are labelling ALL black women with. That being the case, on some level, you MUST know that you are WRONG to be putting this sh1t out there.
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The troll is also assuming that many of Black women who post here are not in serious relationships with Black men or other men.
*Let’s not feed the trolls*
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Great posts Phoebeprunelle
@King
Thanks for speaking up for Black women, it is appreciated.
I think it’s a waste of time; Abagond can do post after post, deconstructing these stereotypes with legitimate data, and we can discuss and add our own findings and sources as a community on the blog to contribute, and successfully so, but still, you’ll get people coming on here, who won’t take the time to read through the material, instead, they’ll just keep breeding White supremacist doctrines, so you can end up going around in circles. I have come to the conclusion, and respectfully say that I think it is best to just ignore these kinds of posters and not engage with them, at all.
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And, believe it or not, Black women actually have higher estrogen levels. . .
……………………………………..
BLACK WOMEN DON’T HAVE HIGHER LEVELS OF TESTOSTERONE AND LOWER LEVELS OF ESTROGEN THEN NON-BLACK WOMEN
A study done by Breastcancer.org study called “Ethnic Gaps in bosom Cancer Linked to Hormones found out ” African-American women had lower rates of bosom cancer than white women did, despite having higher estrogen levels. ”
As a result: “Setiawan notes that more research is needed to figure out why black women differ from other women when it comes to the relationship between estrogen levels and bosom cancer — and why estrogen levels appear to be changing among Japanese women.”
http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/new_research/20061017b.jsp
If thats the case then it debunks the failed study done by kanazawa that black women have more testosterone levels then non-black women, which is a reason for their unattractiveness: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388313/LSE-psychologist-Satoshi-Kanazawa-claims-black-women-attractive.html
If black women had higher testosterone levels then non-black women then they wouldn’t have the same levels of estrogen as non-black women(particularly white women) reported by breastcancer.org or all medical institutions
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And this has been the reason behind why Black women have more extreme hip to waist ratios, along with a skeleton hip region being spaced wider apart.
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@phoebeprunelle
“The troll is also assuming that many of Black women who post here are not in serious relationships with Black men or other men.”—Exactly. TS morons will try to convince themselves of anything.
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^Sigh! You could not have possibly have read through all the 600+ comments that fast!!!! Go back and READ and you will find what you are trying so hard not to seek.
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Trinidad African:
With that said there are some attractive pure black women. They are the exception not the rule however.
Boll0cks!
My female relatives are mostly ugly, just like most black women.
Pretty sure that the guy you are referring thinks his theory applies to all black women so not sure that anyone in your fam can escape this if you seem to trust all that he says – sorry. Also, the apple dont fall too far from the tree so…….
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Jayvis you said that these women were “white-like.” That isn’t really relevant to what I was saying. A racist black man could date a racist latina women and both hate whites. I don’t hate whites, but that’s what I’m saying: Even militant brothas don’t need these broken sistas.
Unless you really do make 6-figures plus, no white woman of a decent level would want you because you are a broken, repulsive man. Well maybe a white woman with very low self esteem might want access to your money. Your type of thinking, the hate of your own self and women who look like you, will fill your children with hate. If you have this much animosity towards women who look like you, you also dislike yourself. If your children are darker and have your features, I already feel sorry for them.
It is your fantasy that black men are desired universally. I think you’ve been listening too much to those white-like women who want access to your money. Only men with lots of money or power are desired universally. Make sure you keep making 6-figures, if you really do. If you lose your income, get ready.
We all need to know where you plan to raise your family so we can keep our children away from yours.
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Hey troll! 70% of Black chicks being single was exposed as a “misuse of statistics” (you know a propaganda technique) two whole years ago.
You should quit while you’re already behind.
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Oh Come on!!!
He doesn’t make anywhere NEAR six figures… to him, $55K a year is “Upper Middle cCass.” Any job where you sit in a desk and cubicle instead of swinging a pick axe is “upwardly mobile.” Saying, Middle class didn’t sound quite exotic enough for him so he added the “upper” part just to fill in. You know… like putting Bondo into the dent on your old Cadillac…
Any honest Black man will tell you that is ridiculous. Black men have come a ways, but the is NOTHING like universal acceptance!
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@Sharina and Ebony
I say this is a perfect opportunity to have fun with these trolls who more than likely are suffering from adult acne and living in the parents’ house and couldn’t get laid by the same Black chicks they harass online …
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Kanawasa didn’t read his own findings properly. Exerts from detailed legitimate article analyzing Kanawasa failing to interpret his own data. . .
……………………………………………..
Black Women Are Not (Rated) Less Attractive! Our Independent Analysis of the Add Health Dataset
An independent analysis of the Add Health dataset
Published on May 21, 2011 by Scott Barry Kaufman, Ph.D. in Beautiful Minds
In his well-read blog post, originally titled “Why Black Women Are Less Physically Attractive Than Other Women”, psychologist Satoshi Kanazawa from the London School of Economics (LSE) concluded that he had found that African American women were “objectively” less attractive than European American, Asian American, and Native American women. The immediate and far-reaching responses to his controversial conclusions led Psychology Today to first change the blog’s title and later to retract it altogether.
Within a few days after the post appeared on the site, a firestorm ensued. Bloggers from all over the world expressed their outrage at the post. Many people’s responses were emotionally charged, and rightly so. Many African American women, who must experience discrimination all their lives, were upset and hurt. Other critiques attempted to be analytical, but didn’t address the key issues, or attacked the entire field of evolutionary psychology because of one member of the discipline (see my thoughts on that here). The largest student organization in London (representing 120,000 students) demanded Kanazawa’s discharge from LSE. According to its spokesman, LSE has started an internal investigation into the blog, although the LSE spokesman stressed the academic freedom of its researchers.
We agree that scientists should not be sacked for making impolite statements that may offend people. However academic freedom does not entail the right (1) to misinterpret data and (2) to ignore empirical findings that go against stated claims.
We retrieved the data from Add Health on which Satoshi Kanazawa based his conclusions to see whether his results hold up to scrutiny. Add Health is a study conducted on a nationally representative sample of adolescents in grades 7-12 who have been followed up to adulthood. The study includes many, many variables (over 8000 in the publically available data sets alone), including measures of social, economic, psychological, and physical well-being. When we first opened the dataset, we were overwhelmed with variables! (One thing we can thank Kanazawa for is even raising this question in the first place, as we probably would not have normally ever looked at the variables he did. Additionally, it must be noted that with so many variables, there are bound to be many statistically significant results in the dataset simply due to chance [1].)
Once we finally located the relevant variables, we conducted the relevant analyses and here’s what we found:
1. Kanazawa mentions several times that his data on attractiveness are scored “objectively”. The ratings of attractiveness made by the interviewers show extremely large differences in terms of how attractive they found the interviewee. For instance the ratings collected from Waves 1 and 2 are correlated at only r = .300 (a correlation ranges from -1.0 to +1.00), suggesting that a meager 9% of the differences in second wave ratings of the same individual can be predicted on the basis of ratings made a year before [2]. The ratings taken at Waves 3 and 4 correlated between raters even lower, at only .136– even though the interviewees had reached adulthood by then and so are not expected to change in physical development as strongly as the teenagers. Although these ratings were not taken at the same time, if ratings of attractiveness have less than 2% common variance, one is hard pressed to side with Kanazawa’s assertion that attractiveness can be rated objectively.
The low convergence of ratings finding suggests that in this very large and representative dataset, beauty is mostly in the eye of the beholder. What we are looking at here are simple ratings of attractiveness by interviewers whose tastes differ rather strongly. For instance, one interviewer (no. 153) rated 32 women as looking “about average,” while another interviewer (no. 237) found almost all 18 women he rated to be “unattractive.” Because raters differ strongly in terms of how they rate interviewee’s attractiveness and because most of them did numerous interviews and ratings, this source of variation needs to be taken into account when testing for average race differences in ratings of attractiveness. Kanazawa does not indicate that he did so.
2. Kanazawa interprets his findings in terms of adult attractiveness yet the majority of his data were based on the ratings of attractiveness of the participants when they were teenagers. If many of us (including the authors of this post) were judged throughout our lives based on our physical attractiveness as a teenager, a lot of us would be in trouble!
Add Health currently has four “waves”, or phases.
Focusing just on Wave 4, it is obvious that among the women in the sample, there is no difference between the ethnicities in terms of ratings of physical attractiveness. Differences in the distributions for females when tested with a regular (and slightly liberal) test of independence is non-significant and hence can be attributed to chance (Pearson’s Chi-Square=15.6, DF=12, p =.210). Here’s the graph that shows the distribution of ratings (in percentages) for 1564 European Americans, 553 African Americans, 97 Native Americans, and 96 Asian American females (with arithmetic means below each group):
Kanazawa claims to be only interested in the “hard” truths on human nature. And the truth of the matter is: As adults, Black Women in North America are not rated less attractive by interviewers of the Add health study, which is one of the most nationally representative samples ever available for investigation.
It is our view though that such research should be held to a higher standard than other research topics both in scientific rigor and presentation (see here for a similar argument). This should be so especially for topics that could potentially cause harm and suffering to individuals within a particular group. Science doesn’t operate in a vacuum. Rigorous science collection and responsible science reporting is essential not just for the progress of science but also for the betterment of society (isn’t that the point of psychology?).
Even if good, rigorous research does eventually show that black women are rated differently, on average, in relevant characteristics (although it highly unlikely considering the representativeness of this dataset), there may indeed be implications for racism. The way to combat racism though is not to ignore it (see here for a related argument) but understand how and why it develops, entertaining the full range of potential causal explanations, from the biological, to cultural learning, to bio-socio-cultural learning.
As the researchers put it:
“When scientists deal with investigations that have relevance to immediate social policies, as studies of group differences can have, it is the duty of scientists to exercise a higher standard of scientific rigor in their research than would be necessary when the goal of the research is solely to advance exploration within science itself. We do not, at any time, argue that certain knowledge should be forbidden on the grounds that it might be used improperly. We do argue that when there is a chance that particular findings will be quickly translated into public debates and policy decisions it is the duty of the scientist to be sure that those findings are of the highest quality.”
Kanazawa does not follow these guidelines in all of his publications. For instance, in a paper on race differences in IQ he not only commits several theoretical errors, but also failed to consider alternative explanations. Incidentally, in that particular paper he also assumed that the earth was flat!
Science, when done properly, is self-correcting. Bad science and interpretations are replaced by better quality science and more sensible and accurate conclusions. If you would like to analyze the Add Health dataset yourself, you can! You can request your very own copy of the dataset here. We look forward to further sensible discussion about these important topics, which impact importantly on the lives of many people.
………………………………………….
From Psychology today. For full article http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201105/black-women-are-not-rated-less-attractive-our-independent-analysis-the-a
Check the graphs, you’ll find that African American women were no where near the bottom.
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@phoebeprunelle
“You should quit while you’re already behind.”—LMBO
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The entire Hip hop community is laughing at Kanye West, every other rapper, they were relentless with him at “The breakfast club interview,” Sway put him in his place on “Sway in the morning.” People are always mocking Kanye. People appreciate Kanye’s talent, but they respect and revere Jay z. And, Jay z is the one married to a Black woman. Sorry. . .
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What I don’t get is you can post articles debunking the 70% myth, the out of wedlock myth, the lack of marriage myth, the achievements in academia in comparison to every other group, and that Black women produce more estrogen than all other groups of women, and yet one continues to ignore the hard facts. It’s like engaging with children, I’m not wasting my time with people who won’t accept true data and are intent on arguing that the earth is flat. It’s like dealing with someone with behavior problems.
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@ King
Any honest Black man will tell you that is ridiculous. Black men have come a ways, but the is NOTHING like universal acceptance!
Black men have indeed come a ways as you say and get respect for that by more than you might know, but not black men of the TA kind. No self-respecting white man I ever met would respect him, and no self-respecting woman would respect a man who disparages the women in his family and group the way he does.
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@Jayis
“Black men have indeed come a ways as you say and get respect for that by more than you might know, but not black men of the TA kind. No self-respecting white man I ever met would respect him, and no self-respecting woman would respect a man who disparages the women in his family and group the way he does.”—Very true. Those like TA are so delusional that you can’t help but laugh though
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@ Jayis
Who can respect a man who would take a crap in his own house?
@ Ebony
and yet one continues to ignore the hard facts. It’s like engaging with children, I’m not wasting my time with people who won’t accept true data”
I hear you.
I mean who would be stupid enough to still be referencing Kanazawa as a legitimate source after he has been universally discredited, made to apologize, lost his job, been called out by members of his own race/nationality? How dumb do you have to be to have missed all of that?
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@ King
Apparently pretty dumb, but I think he is getting most of his information from TS and not really looking it up himself.
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I’m calling you much worse names! And the only nerve you’ve struck with me is fascination that you still have the nerve to keep on posting.
There is PLENTY of evidence/data up-post that refutes your schoolboy’s fantasy of how the world works, but you’re too dumb to even start. You’re being treated like a dunce, mostly because your unintelligent, dishonest, and a bore.
King:“He doesn’t make anywhere NEAR six figures… to him, $55K a year is “Upper Middle cCass.” Any job where you sit in a desk and cubicle instead of swinging a pick axe is “upwardly mobile.”
“You got any proof for that brotha? Sounds like somebody’s eating some sour grapes. Don’t worry, Always someone plans love under no direction, remaining under love every season.
You could say that I have as much “internet proof” of your lack of material success as you do of possessing it. Don’t get me wrong… I’m sure that you consider yourself to be successful in your own eyes. But that is far from the universal standard.
But let us dispense with that.
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OK
Except that everything that you you just listed is relative. Short is relative to how tall the people around you are, dark is relative to the complexions that that you are comparing to. Fat can mean a lot of things, just a skinny can.
Do you deny this?
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@King
“I’m calling you much worse names! And the only nerve you’ve struck with me is fascination that you still have the nerve to keep on posting.”—That is the exact thing I am shocked at. He just keeps going no matter how dumb his posts are.
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Nope sorry. Every white woman has had at some point a fantasy of being with a black man. We are the most attractive race of men because we are the most naturally masculine.
Are you for real? The mandingo? You don’t really want to hear what white women say behind closed doors. I’ll just say that black men like you have proven to be very gullible.
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No, the data from the Kanawasa report shows that Black women ARE NOT on the bottom of the list in the full article link I provided.
Secondly, OOW births have dropped by 30% in the AAC, the reason why the amount of wedlock births are so high is because AA married couples have cut back on children by over 50%, meaning, while non wed AAs have become increasingly more responsible, AA married couple have outdone them by slashing the child bearing in half.
Thirdly, both Black men and women have been shown to be excluded more than any other groups in a recent okaycupid article. BOTH. And both White women are White men were reluctant.
Next, if over 85% of AAM marry AAW, and these are AAM across all classes, then your not making sense. By 35, 75% of AAW are married.
Next, AAW are outdoing everyone in college attendance, now, even Asian men.
And muscle is developed, you’re not born with it. You can research RELIABLE data yourself and you will find that science has proven Black women do not produce more testosterone, they actually produce more estrogen.
The next issue no one will address is, if BW are so bad and WW are so good, why do WW/BM marriages have the highest divorce rate, even above BM/BW, and if BW are so bad, why do BW/WM marriages have the lowest. Me thinks there are social power factors here, and not the innate ways of races and genders.
Lastly, you’re going to get kicked off shortly, you’re already stating BW’s physical appearance is animalistic. It won’t be long now. TS actually did a video saying Trayvon deserved it right after the verdict, and name calling both Trayvon, and his mother. I know full well that TS’s don’t just hate BW, they hate BM and the entire BC; it’s very evident. You should just leave the BC andlive your life in White land, if you really dislike something you completely disregard it, you don’t spend precious time harping on and on about it.
@King
I agree
This will be my last response, I have a family, I have a life, I can’t be asked.
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Usually it’s a compensation technique…. or to be more clear, an OVERcompensation technique.
The less capable and successful the individual, the more he must rely upon these group mythologies for his identity.
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^^^the reason why OOW births is so high
*slashing their child bearing in half
* you’re not making sense
@Jaylis
Exactly, I come from a mixed family, and from my experience WW do not see BM the way many think they do. WW are statistically reluctant to marry non White men, it’s only because the WW population is so high that the WW/BM marriage rate seems so high to the Black community. WW, statistically, are not going there unless he’s pulling 100k and over, in the US.
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@Trinidad African,
Enough already. Stop embarrassing decent Trinis and Africans with your foolishness. What nonsense!
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@Trinidad African
“My female relatives are mostly ugly, just like most black women.”
IMO, this is easily the most f*cked up thing you’ve said. The terrible science you are bringing up is nowhere near this level of messed up. Being a man who “has it together” isn’t simply about staying out of trouble and getting a decent job. Respecting those close to you and caring for them is a part of that ideal too.
Unless your relatives had abused or abandoned you, or were extremely dysfunctional in some other way, you’ve got no good reason to say this kind of stuff.
I genuinely hope you’ll never have a daughter.
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Looking at the reply rates on OKcupid>, (the rate that women reply to an online inquiry) one of the largest online dating services in the U.S., Black males get the LOWEST rate of replies of ALL the races surveyed, except for Indian males. Just to add some perspective to the ignorant and oft exagerated fantasy.
The idea that Black men are some kind of ‘prize’ based on their being Black and male is totally incorrect, and will only lead to embarassment and confusion in the real world.
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@Trinidadian African:
Just get yourself a white woman and call it a day. No one here is really interested in your babblings. Besides you are in reality, a white race realist parading as a ‘black’ man. You got all the ‘arguments’ down pat. If you are not, then I apologize; you are one of the most self-loathing black men I have ever had the displeasure to come across. Whatever the case, quit! Jokes only go so far, reiterating the same ones constantly induce yawns. You aint fooling anyone. Must be a slow night on the internet.
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let me tell you something, okcupid.com is mostly white women, i’m not dating online anymore but i did for years. pof.com is better for black women.
my dark black girlfriend is so pretty TA you are on some straight nut ish. tommy is just lost in the wilderness yo
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this thread is lagging badly
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So then, you admit that the ‘perception of desirability’ is plastic to some extent? A darker complexions can be seen as desirable when it is a San Tropez sun tan, a lighter complexion can be seen as less desirable when it is the result of albinism or leprosy? Do you challenge this?
You also see that fat is a necessary component in the human body and that its presence is necessary. Therefore a certain amount of fat is good and the range of fat content and distribution are again, relative to the culture? Correct?
It;s not really as simple as just saying, “The fatter, darker, older, a woman is, the less she has value as a partner,” is it?
It’s more complex than that, isn’t it?
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bull be takin calls now, i dont feel the need to call in
“WILL U BE WATCHING THE SHOW TONIGHT 9PM EST? WILL U BE CALLING IN 347-989-8310? http://youtu.be/-kHyHfQZaG8 CLICK HERE TO FIND DETAILS ON TOPIC & HOW TO WATCH LIVE & JOIN THE ONLINE CHAT WITH OTHERS!”
at least he put the time zone in i had to remind him of that not 2 months ago
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oh sorry about the link i guess its not auto embed im not watchin tommy tonight at all
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@ Trinidad African, please explain this white nerd is king in Asia? I was in Asia for a long time I didn’t quite see it that way. Where in Asia is this so called nerd king? I have no clue as to what you are babbling about. Please clarify your comment it is just a head scratcher. I must have travelled the wrong parts of Asia because in China, Korea, and Japan most of the women there are still marrying with-in their own ethnic group. I found the same thing in India, and Vietnam it was the same old. However in Australia I did find that there were a lot of nerdy white guys married few of them have called themselves kings. Yet, does Australia still count as in the Asian club? Who knows, I think I am going to find a Unicorn now this White Nerdy King of Asia is just to hard to find. P.S. are you still playing with Dragons?
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@ sharina
“Trinidad African has switched more positions than a porn star.”
Bahwhwaw.
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The darker, fatter, or older a female, is very, very subjective and relative to the man in question perceptions…
Men desiring “lighter” skin females as some sort of universal truth has not been proven nor does it hold any real world reality when some of the most successful, respected males have married women “darker” than themselves (Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Isiah Washington, Courtney B. Vance, Barack Obama, John Singleton, Gary Dourdan)…
I’m using Black/Black couples as an example for a reason. Having light skin has nothing to do with how attractive, feminine, or desirable a woman is.
Study after study has shown that “older” females still enjoy sexual activity well on into their 70’s and beyond…unless of course the troll is saying ALL Black women are past childbearing…
Yea this is what happens when loser trolls are getting their azzes handed to them on these threads.
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Are you serious?? The MAJORITY of the world’s population of “Latina” and Asian women in fact have what is called “Brown” skin.
Damn, reading surely isn’t fundamental for a troll.
http://www.brownskin.net/diverse.html
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@Trindad African
“You keep regurgitating tired excuses. You yourself are still insecure despite your “Hispanic husband.” I doubt he’s real but even if he is I feel bad for him.”—The only excuses I managed to run across are the ones you made. As for my feeling insecure that is simply your projections onto me. You spent more time trying to tell me who and what I am when frankly you don’t really know anything about me , so the way I see it you are only proving more and more your jealousy and delusions. Using this as a mean to not address anything I actually said to you and attempts to side track the truth of what I actually said. You have lost your argument and unlike you I know my situation is true and don’t need to brag about it (usually braggers are liars) and you are not short of neing caught in a lie.
“And when compared to the majority of the world’s women, the fat, sassy American black woman is the least desirable of all women, while the masculine, dominant, black man is the true king of this world. “—Hey did you know that ebonymonroe(mixed) and Jayis (mixed or white) just let you know how delusional you are up thread by giving you a heads up into the minds of white women?
And before I close… Men like you are low class in mind and likely in financial standing. You blame your bad luck on any and every black woman and preach the “Tommy is speaking the truth” mantra to avoid addressing your own personal failures. You drop a lot of hints in your post and you are free to deny it, but I am also free to not care.
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@phoebeprunelle
I think he believes if he keeps saying it then it will be true. Though that does not seem to be working out for him.
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@ Trindad African
That was not the implication.
Interesting that you should classify albinism as “diseased and disgusting” since albinism is, in fact not a disease, but a congenital disorder. Albinism is caused by a partial lack of ability to produce melanin. Melanin plays the primary role in protecting the skin from being burned by solar radiation. The less melanin one produces, the more susceptible one is to sunburn and therefore skin cancer. The darker your skin, the more protection you have from melanoma, squamous cell carcinoma, freckling, skin lesions, eczema, sunspots, and premature wrinkling.
Perhaps you care to slowly explain how having more melanin makes you “less healthy,” and having less melanin makes you more healthy… I’ll wait.
So the definition of “tall” is completely dependent upon who is standing next to you. If everyone is four feet tall then being 4′ 2″ is “tall.” Interesting.
So then if today a man stands over 8 feet
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474101/New-worlds-tallest-man-stands-towering-8ft-5ins.html
then he would be more attractive than a man who only stood at 5′ 11′, correct?
because taller is always better, as is lighter, and younger in all cases. Am I correctly stating your assertions?
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Oh man, I feel sorry for this guy. He cannot interpret simple articles on Black marriage, the OOW birthrate fallacy, and the increasing presence of African American women as an upwardly mobile, educated population, now exceeding all other groups, for the first time. And yet, he paints himself to be some high flying career man. How can this be when you interpret very easy to understand math, presented in the articles, as stretching the truth? You are not able to comprehend very straight forward information.
The most successful and legendary supermodel of all time is Naomi Campbell.
Secondly, I presented the scientific findings that Black women do not produce more testosterone, but more estrogen, but you claim this legitimate science, that has been accepted across the entire science field (the field that rejected Kanawasa’s claims upon analyzing them), because you view Serena William’s body type as a representation of all Black women?
Black women range from the “very slight without muscle Chanel Iman,” to the “slender but toned late singer Aaliyah,” to the thick athletic and toned hourglass shape of Beyoncé” to the “very thick and Bria Myles,” to “the high body fat, low muscle shape of someone like Monique.” There are many White women bodybuilders but of course that is not a representation of them producing more testosterone, they’re athletes.
Both King and I presented the fact that Black men are also at the bottom of the list when it comes to being selected by non Black women on dating sites like okcupid, but you skip over data and facts when they don’t suit your paradigm in order to create a reality in line with your own delusion.
I do believe you implied that I have undone your positions simply because I’m angry at Black men dating out. First of all I am the product of an interracial partnership, so that would make me contrary to my own existence by way of despising the very union I am a product of. Next, I’m in the UK, where over 1/3 of Black women marry out, I myself have been involved in just as many long term interracial relationships with non Black men as I have Black men, before I settled down, and am not against interracial dating or marriage, in the least. Racial dynamics play out completely differently then the US, over here in the UK, so there is no point going there.
You also suggested that all Black men who don’t make the amount that you do are just thugs and jailbirds, which is the position that we live in a post racial society where White men who have served jail time do not have a better chance at finding employment than college educated Black men with degrees. You are divorced from the climate of the African American community and the world around them. I am not surprised, since you are a supporter of Tommy Sotomayor, a man who came to George Zimmerman’s defense, implied that Trayvon deserved it, called the dead teenager names, along with his mother, straight after the verdict came through.
Lastly, you cannot separate the physical features of Black women from Black men, so by saying Black women look animalistic, you have accidentally confessed that you think Black men look animalistic also, since they share similar features (African features). I cannot imagine what it must be like feeling that you (as a Black man) look like an animal, that must be an incredible conflicting state of mind to have to grapple with on a daily basis.
I cannot imagine what it must be like to be Black and hate Blackness, I feel sorry for you, but your arguments do not stand on any real data, nor are you able to compute data when it is presented, so we’re essentially discussing a religion, which is predicated on faith. A religion regarding African American women being all these things you say they are not matter how much reporting provides hardcore evidence to the contrary of YOUR OPINION. I do not really believe in getting in the way of religion, you are free to worship at whatever church, and support whatever doctrine you choose to. If it is founded on faith and very contrary to fact, what more is there to be said?
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Not at all. Allow me to educate you as to what I was doing since you seem not to know. Look up the phrase, “Reductio ad absurdum” and you will see that the technique has been used in philosophy since the Presocratic era. It’s hardly the “ploy” you seem to think it is.
The reason it is necessary to employ such techniques upon your arguments, (and to grate you like some third-rate schoolboy) is because you make broad, imprecise, and unqualified statements, without reservation or forethought.
Your lack of care and qualification is an open invitation to take your foolishly absolute words to their logical and ridiculous conclusions.
Therefore If “tall” is ALWAYS better (which you stipulate above) and if “tall” is relative to the height of others (which you also stipulate) then the tallest man in the world would also be the most desirable man in the world – prima facie.
Unless… you are willing to backtrack and be more precise in your claims and allow for the obvious fact that nothing is “ALWAYS” the case, and that no trend is “universal.”
…Oops, I will have to answer your two points when I get back to my home computer. I need to move my car from this parking space.
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Dang is dude still at it? What a weird mix of logical fallacies, MRA craziness and evo psych-grounded biological determinism nonsense. Whew!
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Yes, I agree that you do, because I just explained it to you.
That is a ridiculous excuse. When you say that, the taller a man is, the more value he has, it makes perfect sense to find the tallest person and check to see if this is true. I could have easily used a 7 foot Watusi, or a lanky 6 foot 9 inch Scandinavian house painter. The obvious fact is that women are generally attracted to men that are approx. 7 to 10 inches taller than themselves. Most women do not desire a mate who towers over them like a giraffe. What you stated was simply, and obviously incorrect.
Your point about the tendency for female supermodels to be lighter, on average, than the cultural mean is astonishing, since darker-skinned female supermodels have always handily outnumbered darker-skinned male supermodels in every market. In other words, the fashion industry has been even less friendly to Black males than to Black females… Another small logical detail you seemed to somehow miss.
But since your entire last two days of rabid attack on Black female beauty (according to you) was now just an elaborate ruse… (As was your upper middle class status I presume) there is need to further debunk your confused utterances. This may be the most ridiculous ending to a series since Lost.
Nice try at the “Reset Button” though.
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1. No, the kanawasa study showed that Black women were not the least desired when the data was analyzed properly; look over the charts.
2. You conveniently skip over the fact that Black men are the least responded to on okcupid by non Black women, after Indian men.
3. YOU SAID BLACK WOMEN’S FEATURES ARE ANIMALISTIC, AND SINCE BLACK MEN SHARE SIMILAR FEATURES, YOU IMPLIED BLACK MEN ALSO HAVE ANIMALISTIC FEATURES. And since you are a Black man, you, too, must possess animalistic features. Your opinion that Black features are animalistic, has nothing to do with your definitions of masculinity and femininity, animalistic features don’t suddenly become human because they’re on men.
4. Both the African American, and the Hispanic American community, are at the forefront of the obesity epidemic. So demonizing African American women for obesity rates, while holding Hispanic women up as the antithesis is an ignorant, at best, uninformed, move. Furthermore, to add insult to injury, an unmarried Hispanic woman is more likely to have a child out of wedlock than an unmarried Black woman.
5. You’re presented with the facts: out of wedlock births have greatly diminished in the African American community, by over 1/3, but as the African American community has become increasingly more responsible, the reason why out of wedlock births still makes such a huge percentage of all births in the African American community, is because although non wed Black women have cut back by 1/3, married African American couples have cut back by more than 1/2. Also, African American women’s std rate has plummeted.
6. You’re presented with facts: you regurgitate the myth that 72% of Black women are single, but I present that that idea that circulated in news media, was analyzed, and was found to be untrue. The study included Black women/girls in their teens. When the data was analyzed, the findings were that 75% of African American women are married by 35.
7. In a lifetime, around 85% of African American men, from all classes, wed African American women. And, the vast, vast majority of African American men, who make over 100k, still choose African American women as wives. Also, BW/WM and BW/AM marriages are the fastest growing unions out of all interracial unions in the US. And, in the UK, over 1/3 of Black women, are married to White men. So, whether you like it or not, both Black, and non Black men, do not share your opinion for you to present this as the case.
You bring up Taye Diggs, but conveniently forget Denzel Washington, Samuel L. Jackson, Forest Whitaker, Spike Lee, Will Smith; the most revered, Oscar winning, and/or box office breaking African American leading men in contemporary cinema. You bring up Kanye West, but conveniently forget his idol, Jay Z. These men are members of the 85%. . . Sorry.
When disproved with facts you resort to childishness and start going on about your outlook on noses and hair texture.
8. African American women are flooding the upper class, by way of corporate America and higher education, the latter of which they have progressed in to such a degree that they have exceeded all other groups for the first time in history, even Asian men. So much so that now, African American women now receive loans/mortgages as easily as White men do. African American women are now also exceeding White women’s pay. You claim to be special because you’re upwardly mobile, that’s fine, but you claim these major gains the African American female population are making should be excluded from the “special category” simply because they’re Black women?
In my opinion, from Angelina Jolie’s lips, to JLO’s behind, to Pam Grier, one of the biggest s-x symbols of the 70’s, with her iconic look, which included her afro hair texture, to dark, sunkissed complexion ranging from chocolate to caramel, Black women’s features are often coveted the world over. Even Hitler was obsessed with the Ethiopian Nefertiti’s bust. I was just watching the movie “Boomerang” earlier today, I’m sorry, I think Black women are gorgeous, that’s my word.
9. You bring a whole argument based on your “testosterone theory,” but it is shattered by the science community’s finding that Black women do not produce more testosterone, but in fact, produce more estrogen. There was an entire documentary on it in 2001, shown in the UK. This was the reason given as to why Black women have a more extreme hip to waist ratio, and why Puerto Rican women often posses that shape, because of their African ancestry.
10. Non Black Hispanics tend to marry eachother or Whites, South Asians tend to marry eachother, East Asian women tend to marry Asian or White, and White women are reluctant to marry out unless a man is making more than 100k, I’m sorry if this shatters your grand illusions but it’s just the way it is. Of course Black men can marry out, no one is arguing with that, but the angle you’re presenting is statistically very far from the truth.
11. You cannot answer when I ask if Black women are so bad, why do White women/Black men divorce rates exceed that of Black women/Black men?
You say Most models are White, but begin talking a large noses when I remind you that some of the most iconic models in fashion history are Black women, (Tyra Banks, Naomi Campbell, Iman), but then you present the idea that the average White woman looks like Claudia Schiffer or Gia Carangi? Really, this is your counter?
Your argument has been destroyed just through simply stating the facts, you have wrapped your own Black image up in your own ad hominem attacks. You have no where left to go and don’t even know it.
There is nothing you can do, African American women do not fit the description you present, not socially, not physically by way of comparison, and not domestically. This monolith is not inline with the data. Of course, you will read this and answer things that were not said, or counter by supporting debunked theory, or ad hominem attacks as you do. For future reference, when you engage in a debate, you must present facts, you cannot argue with facts, or state that personal opinion is fact when statistics do not support you. When you do, you lose before you begin. I think you will eventually be kicked off, I can picture you becoming more and more disrespectful, you began gently, but within a few short posts, you became more and more extreme, and quickly showed your true colours.
Anyway, back to my evening.
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@ Ebonymonroe
You summed him up quite nicely. 🙂
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. . . the Kanazawa findings, upon being properly analyzed, were charted, and went as follows…
Very attractive.
European American Women= 12.2%
African American women= 11.6%
Native American women= 10.3%
Asian American women= 9.4%
Attractive.
European American Women= 35.7%
African American women= 36.3%
Native American women= 32.0%
Asian American women= 42.7%
About Average.
European American Women= 44.8%
African American women= 41.8%
Native American women= 51.5%
Asian American women= 39.6%
Unattractive.
European American Women= 4.2%
African American women= 4.7%
Native American women= 2.1%
Asian American women= 6.3%
Very unattractive.
European American Women= 3.0%
African American women= 5.6%
Native American women= 4.1%
Asian American women= 2.1%
……………………………………………….
You could take the unattractive column, and since Asian American women got the lowest, you could conclude that Asian American women are the most unattractive, if you are stupid enough to not read the findings in context. In the very attractive scoring Black women were second to highest, the same in the Attractive column. The Kanawaza’s interpretation of his findings was bebunked not because it is offensive, but because his interpretation was dishonest, since African American women scored so highly in the positive categories. He isolated one category to conclude that Black women are the least attractive, but by that same way of interpreting, you could say that despite a White supremacist society, Black women are still only second to European women in a majority European country. What?
All I ask is that people make sense when they speak, I don’t ask for much.
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Slow claps… to you both
Ebony & Sharina
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Curtsey bows before King “King.”
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@King
🙂 thank you.
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Oh, how could I forget, high fives Sharina.
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*high five* @ Ebony
In fact high five around the room because phoebe and mstoogood4yal and king and others were awesome as well.
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I have already said that the same thing goes for a guy who is 7 feet tall (which is rare but much more common) SAME THING. You have no point to make.
The idea that the taller a guy is the more “value” he has is wrong. In general women would like a man to be a certain height (depending on their own height) but once that minimum threshold is met, additional height becomes less and less of a benefit until it becomes a hinderance. (as you have now admitted) Your original statement simply was not true… No, it’s wasn’t “common sense,” or any other kind of sense—it was just a sloppy and poorly conceived statement.
Really? Where exactly has that been proven? (provide the link)
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Yes, I must say… I feel like one of a dozen piranha who have just gorged themselves on the bloated carcass of a perplexed and befuddled Tapir who fell into the river!
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First of all you ignored the studies I just posted.
SILENCE, Tapir!!!! We are not finished chewing upon your hide!!
And F.Y.I., siting one study from one country/culture does not demonstrate proof of fact. The closest you may come to “proof” is when the *majority* of experts in a given field agree that the majority of studies, on a given subject, are conclusive.
Do you have such a consensus to point to?
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You know what is funny. For someone who just claimed he does not believe what he was arguing he is most certainly arguing it pretty hard.
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Hahaha! ….Yeah right.
Hey fellow piranha: Did commenting on this thread somehow stop you from commenting and paying your respects on the Nelson Mandela thread?
Another desperate attempt to look like like a troll instead of a FOOL!
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I knew it was you! You have far too much time on your hands.
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Oh well, we all know what Trinidad/Asplund really looks like:
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Dammit link wouldn’t word:
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sigh… 😦
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@Bulanik don’t worry, we’ll recognise his ‘signature’ next time. His style of writing is quite distinctive.
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@ A/TD why on earth would anyone be jealous of that? I don’t know many women who want their faces to be e********d on by anyone. It’s just a male fantasy. If you knew a lot of women you’d be aware of that.
Just admit it dude, you’re a 25 year old virgin with no job and too much time on his hands.
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@wordynerdygirl
“Just admit it dude, you’re a 25 year old virgin with no job and too much time on his hands.”—I agree though for some reason I picture him much older.
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So according to himself, a guy comes on a blog a month ago, very shortly thereafter, he starts a beef about Black women…
He is engaged by commenters who oppose the ideas he is espousing.
Once the ideas are refuted he says “Surprise” I’m not really this anonymous name! I actually go by another anonymous name! And I don’t believe any of the ideas I’ve been arguing for almost a month.
So, how is this a win for him again? Forgive me but I’m not seeing the one upsmanship here.
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Ah, a banned poster. So what was his line of reasoning when he was on before and why was he banned?
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@ ebonymonroe and Sharina
*bravo* encore encore. dang ebony u are deadly when u bring out those stats lol. thanks for giving credit to everyone sharina. I knew he was a joke when he posted that tommy vid. then when he went on about black women’s features and how those same features on black men are attractive I was rofl.
and wow he’s asplund bahwhawha, I thought he kinda sounded like naija girl. this is too dam much I never in my short life seen someone create so many screen names just to troll.
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But, King, there is none. The blitzkrieg prodigality that he imagines he is, is his simply his imagination… 😀
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@ King
It is not a win for him (though he likes to believe it). He apparently likes to make up these elaborate stories about his life and use those as a means to make points on the threads. Linda called him out on an inconsistency in one of his posts. He claimed he was drunk and made a mistake. So I would believe the opposite of anything he says really. If you read any of his post you would see that he comes off as very insecure and tries so hard to be relevant.
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I knew he wasn’t a real black man, I knew he was a non black man posing as a black man to get anger out of black women to the point of attacking black men I knew it. not surprised they study how we interact online and study tommy’s vids to become proficient at their trolling craft. Any self respecting black person does not watch tommys vids, idc if u do have issues with black women after all the stuff he says about the whole black community what proud black person would follow him. I notice a lot of the black youtube channels that get trolled when u click on the trolls name they usually are subscribed to tommy. smh
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Oh king he does listen to tommy so that much was true or rather that much was consistent. He originally got banned for sock puppets. Abagond had mercy and unbanned him, but why he completely got banned I am unsure.
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I said his Nigerian girlfriend used the same computer and that he wasn’t using a sock puppet. Abagond gave him the benefit of the doubt. Something like that…
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He* said
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@ Bulanik
I see.
It’s like an immature soldier coming back to his own encampment one night who decides to stand behind a tree and sporadically shoot his riffle in the air toward camp until his fellow soldiers begin shooting back into the darkness in the direction of his shots.
Finally in the light of morning he waves his arms and walks into camp grinning.
“Hey…hahaha! That wasn’t an enemy last night that was me! Haha! I fooled you all into shooting back at me!!
Of course we shot back, what else do you do if someone does’t declare himself and is firing his rifle in your direction?
Yeah, but I wasn’t really going to do anything else but shoot into the air!!! See you thought I was somebody else!!!! Hahaha!
OK, but obviously there was no way in the dark that we could have known that, so we did what anyone would logically do – we fired back.
But… but do you see!! That’s the FUNNY part!!! You… you didn’t know it was me! Hahahaha!! I made you shoot and it wasn’t another person, it was ME!
…I ask you which one is the fool here?
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As crafty as you attempt to be you are still a sore loser. You were banned on November 6th. You did not create you next sock puppet until Nov. 9th (not the same day you keep peddling). You can’t even keep up with your own scheme and you expect people in here to be dumb enough to believe it (or anything you say). And for someone who won…you would not need to come back and continue to explain over and over again.
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Abagond you can delete my response to him as well if you like.
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@ King
I banned Asplund the first time for using a sock puppet. He said it was his girlfriend. Since he had done some serious commenting on the Moors I gave him the benefit of the doubt. HUGE MISTAKE. He became an out-and-out troll, so much so I started moderating all his comments. When he found a way to avoid moderation I banned him since he showed no interest in following rules.
I think there is a fair chance that he is xPraetorius or Da Jokah, maybe even Churchs. They all seem alike to me, frankly.
Date of first comment:
xPraetorius: June 23rd 2013
Asplund July 3rd 2013
Da Jokah July 28th 2013
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@ abagond I think it’s Da Jokah. xPrat’s comments were a lot more long-winded.
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@ abagond are they all operating out of the same state? Their IP address blocks should provide some clues.
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lol @ abagond, breaking it down…..
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@ Sharina
Thank you.
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I knew it was some white racist clown form the get go. I couldn’t of cared less if it was this Asplund freak or some other goof, they are essentially the same but come in different packaging.
Sat 7 Dec 2013 at 01:50:51
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@ Abagond,
Feel free to delete my responses to him as well, if it will clean up the thread,
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@ King
Thank you.
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The comments of Trinidad African (black sock puppet of the banned Asplund) and the responses of Sharina, King and Abagond have been deleted from this thread.
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I agree.
People come to these boards to present and argue viewpoints. Who is presenting the viewpoint, and for that matter, why they are presenting it, is largely beside the point. What has always mattered to me is that wrong ideas are addressed and challenged, no matter how they got on here.
I know it’s a popular point of debate to argue that we shouldn’t respond to “trolls” and simply ignore them. But to me, if they are posting damaging and incorrect ideas, I see no value in leaving them on the board unchallenged as if there are not answers to their spurious assertions.
A “troll” can still say things that many others have been thinking. So I choose to argue the points being made, and worry less about “feeding the trolls.” Some hapless person reading the exchange a year later will not even know that one of us was a “troll.” All they will see is what ideas were presented, and which ideas prevailed.
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I know it’s a popular point of debate to argue that we shouldn’t respond to “trolls” and simply ignore them.
Oh I agree, debate their ‘ideas’ or mock them. You are right when you say that people will read these posts and think the loons were making valid responses as most people do not know any different and they seem to be impressed with verbosity rather than succintness.. They must have a lot of time on their hands whatever the case to use so many aliases. They are either independantly wealthy or they live in their parents basement.
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ah well i wound up getting hit in the head with a 5 gallon pot about 10 times, and also my face got beat up from miss yvonne we done, my other black friends took me in, succesffully exfiltrated but she did bust a window on my car too, lucky im a nice guy i reckon
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Most if not all of Abagond’s trolls are mentally unstable. Suffering so many delusions that is it not even funny (ok It is hilarious).
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this is kind of cute, even though it’s like candid camera on steroids, i guess blame it on reailty tv’s popularity… and yes it doesnt jibe with the definition of racism everyone has agreed on here… fwiw:
http://freepatriot.org/2013/12/10/happens-black-man-brings-white-girlfriend-harlem-barbershop-watch/
“What Happens When A Black Man Brings His White Girlfriend Into A Harlem Barbershop? [Watch]”
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@King
I agree, sometimes it is worth addressing these arguments that not only trolls, but many people present. That’s essentially the purpose of interacting in the comment section of a blog like this. The only time I find it pointless is when the debate has been had, arguments debunked, on this very blog, and yet a few weeks later, a poster presents them again, neglecting to simply look over recent posts. I definitely felt the need to address that Kanawasa study, once and for all. Happy I got the opportunity.
Must say, I was very impressed with the amount of people who defended the sistas. Thank-you
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@v8driver
I told you to leave that girl alone. I hope you don’t go back, now. In no way is it worth it; there’s other fish in the sea.
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no doubt, ebony, it is over. had a little debriefing session with my friend the other day, and you know he said, i heard it’s the same in the suburbs, i said yeah, we just had nicer toys.
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Lol, I’m glad to hear it. God willing she’ll get it together before she turns on the wrong one one of these days.
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thank you, unfortunately i walked into scene ii as i am sitting here with a 1 week old baby and bull is upstairs talk to some chick and his wife is ready to leave wow it is the same words and just general protection fault error
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sometimes i wonder is it something i did to bring chaos to every scenario or are people just so shortsighted
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abwhawha rofl, peanut that vid is hilarious. that guy is so clueless, she could threaten him and he just smile and not know smh. I think ppl should learn the language and culture of someone they are trying to be with. The part where the woman asked him what does she get out of the relationship and he couldn’t answer was very telling about their relationship. That is crazy he needs a translator for everything. rofl when she said this relationship has problems but at first she was saying it was his ex that was the problem not their relationship. smh oh I gotta finish watching this trainwreck.
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dang the guys look ugly, ugh and the guy with the mullet, smh plz cut that thing off. Steve is so clueless, talking about he like the way their eyes are cut, and the camerawoman probably felt so violated the way he was looking at her and commenting about her hair and taking pics of her smh. he look so pervy there is something with a man that seeks younger women and won’t date anybody close to his age. He was just fishing for any chinese woman, and proposed to the first woman but she was smart enough not to marry him, it is really creepy that a guy would propose the first time he meets someone. This guy was looking for the submissive sweet Asian woman, but like all women they have a good and bad side and get angry. I can’t believe they stayed together.
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eh well bull took off paid me to give him a ride and left me in the crib with his wife his rent (he asked me to hold it) and his baby and eh some other girl i’m kinda feelin said she was gonna come over but who knows probably not by now. i don’t need no internet to spend time with women. lol. have a great day!
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bull’s wife’s girlfriend came over, eh get a life
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my new project is miss neo in lesotho, she’s black of course
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Reblogged this on Green Grass and Tea Leaves.
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“Thomas Six Actual Conlon added a life event: Got Engaged to Neo Nelly Masiloane
thanks everybody! wish us luck…”
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Thomas Six Actual Conlon added a life event: Got Engaged to Neo Nelly Masiloane
Congratulations! Do you have a job? It’s not a ‘shotgun wedding’ is it?
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i have my own business, it’s been a little slow, lately. I just got a job offer yesterday for a somewhat modest $16/hr, but that is pending my background check. It is not any type of shotgun wedding; she is in Lesotho. I am in Philadelphia, PA. It will be interesting at worst! 🙂
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currently experiencing some turbulence, long distance relationships are a challenge! no status change at this time
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i think that status is under review bilaterally, you’ll just have to buy my book eventually…. oh well
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review complete, relationship terminated, oh well, i tried, anyway, that puts me two steps closer to somewhere were it could actually be a live woman around and not a cybernetic entity, and also, since i’m noving to georgia, it could complete my checklist, if she has a southern accent, and maybe she could drive manual transmission even on the truck, not too fat, a black woman.
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@kiwi “And the highest status of men are white men.”
i didn’t find that to be true in my old neighborhood in philly
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well miss neo is blocking me, that’s ok, tikki needs a place to stay, now she’s from philly down here in atlanta, i don’t understand how people can’t get dates, there’s nothing that great about me physically i have no problems with that all, miss kiesha is well that is online, nothing great yet, but if tikki comes out to stay, you have to manage your potential, is all.
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well tikki came over
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*like*
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Kiwi,
Are we lead to believe that they would rather have their Asian daughter date a white man than an Asian man too?
Also, does the Asian mother live in a white neighborhood? Maybe they felt they did their best to raise their daughter in a white neighborhood, they don’t want her to “mess it up”.
I am not saying I agree with that reasoning, but just trying to consider what is running through that mother’s head, and the prospects of a future son-in-law.
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I mean, Would it make a difference if the black bf was, say, a Phd, or wealthy?
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lookin pretty grim with tikki, i have some psyche and stress issues, and -$200 in the bank, not going so well, but at least it is not a problem relating to racial issues
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its all good in the hood at this time, please be advised
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its not going good with tikki she f*n drank a case of beer and is starting trouble causing me to almost get in a fistfight with the neighbors tonight she’s going home now
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well i got shiela now, she’s black of course
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cant forget about miss pat right before i left chattnooga either!
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to some degree i feel i have become everything that i despised in my for example ex-wife’s behavior but having been divorced for a while now, and knowing that the instant move-in together plan rarely ends up well..
lathario? i think it is
trying to exercise a little more discretion.
i also discovered certain attributes on my requirements list, pof style has more weight than others, but yeah i am not allowed to say, and that also has been an issue with my fb addiction and ‘puttin my business out there’ somewhat is a battle, but i’m winning it.
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and i was also highly disturbed i think yesterday on the airplane this british dude, a real jackass, was reading some like how to train a submissive girl .pdf file it was very odd also how he reacted to the black stewerdess it was wierd i’m not into that shit, but shiela is a little, i don’t like that all even that would be considered ‘light bdsm’ gtfo
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no more shiela, sort of since?, uh let’s see nicki, brittney, jackie, and well i’ve settled on leah now she is the one i want, oops.
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oh yeah i forgot reds half black half irish and also tiffany?
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this other girl mika will go out with me too, that all is not a problem for me!
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Sounds like some good luck for you v8.
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cant’ leave out landa in the graveyard she’s down for anything but that wasnt strange
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@sharina yes i am lucky in general; however, i do have some skills!
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so i was ruminating the other day on one of some fb group urban underground or something, about can you reach a point in your dating game where everyone has a girlfriend/boyfriend like?
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so leah and her dude split up over her and me hanging out all night a few times and well miss shiela did not approve either, so i’m a certified homewrecker (x2 in one shot!) now too but i really love this one, she’s just like me so here we go again, mh/sa big time, something’s different or i’m just foolin’ myself.
I like the litany from fear from dune, it helps me out to say it in my head
like today the fear it’s like a cramp, i can feel it congealing my mental processes and emotional flow of hope and positivity come lately unto me, it is gone now, well when everyone you spend time with smokes crack or does heroin on a 95% tip, things tend to frequently end up going somewhat off track…
so can I get this girl out of the hood? move her out of town? that is the (LONG TERM) goal.
i smoked a little weed *legal in colorado* i might add today and you know what it came to me i just need to show leah what she means to me. and relax a little bit she aint goin nowhere faster than me
in terms of my nurturing ie of my children etc family, like? maybe if i successfully participated in a project which could evince some relatively immediate results and get a few endorphins off that it’ll kick start my ass back into some type of connection to humanity deeper than the surface
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For i am surely being tested
LITANY AGAINST FEAR
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear – From Frank Herbert’s Dune Book Series
© 1965 and 1984 Frank Herbert
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGDOMCGichU)
Jill Scott – Long Walk Lyrics
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ah my friend shawnte talked to me on the phone today for a good long while she is from nj a black female i just have a hard time articulating how i feel like the girls around the way they say you know a girl do what she need to do but … i am truly adrift here
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So i decided to believe her and trust her.
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(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204551583778140&set=a.1195315651607.30423.1489932727&type=1)
she rides a bike she’s cool, man
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maybe a 2br at least we could each have our own personal space like she has animals i have kids
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know what
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so yeah her ex what a loser, i had to buy her a phone and she needs clothes and stuff supposedly we’re taking a room together since neither one of us has a place to stay that is acceptable… this is all confidential of course!
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naa that’s cool we do have an agreement as well to represent as a couple once the movein occurs, it’s gonna be ok or eh…
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no that’s hyperbole i want this one to work out for real
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so she is texting me today idk we promised each other no cheating no abuse its up and running
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$2100 to move into a 1br? sheesh!
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thank gawd she was able to articulate that her crack habit is as deleterious as my alcohol addiction, if less dangerous, still just as annoying, we’ll see,
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im just tired of living on the street since january now, all else is pretty much triflin, i guess i am tolerated to disaster.
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her mom likes me too we all watched the eagles game today i found a place for us too
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these damn streets though….
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Well we are movin in together right now wish us luck
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Best wishes, v8.
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yo ::)
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this block is raggedy
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I told her mom this morning it’s like a lion tryin to tame a tiger with us
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So leah’s mom told her that some time later that day and of course leah says “noone’s gettin tamed here”
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ah man i am caught between some type of writers block and not wanting to get sued i think that is beneath reproach as i would say however she is helping me somewhat but ovisouly as the regular readers would know there is more to the story i need to write like popping a zit but im lazy and i get high and drink my hometown buddy is at etsu i could prolly get in a masters’ program that would help me i think the impetus or something like a perceived need to write its just clogging my head up all this stuff
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v8driver
Sometimes it is best to have quiet time and relax to allow the creativity to flow. In your favorite place no less. My favorite place is the beach at night. Feet in the water, feeling the waves crash against them.Fall in the south is the best time to go too. 🙂
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well we got married… 🙂
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oops sorry i guess its her privacy settings shes tagged
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she’s watching scandal and talking about it, i’m like i’m not watching it for a reason
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oh sorry that’s empire and its about terrence howards’ sexual procilivities ugh make it stop
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^^^I love Empire. I thought I would not but I really like it.
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To Kiwi:
Don’t these two statements contradict each other? Abagond is saying that Asian women are more likely to marry white if they grow up around whites but white women are even more likely to marry white if they grow up around blacks.
The latter statement… “white women are even more likely to marry white if they grow up around blacks.” is probably correct for the states in the Southeast (were blacks range from between 25% to more than 40% of the population..) but it’s fairly common for white women to date black men in California where blacks make up 7% of the population. That would suggest to me that the stigma of a black man dating a white woman is lower in California than in the Southeast.
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Kiwi,
I don’t think there is any contradiction at all in those two statements. They are both probably true.
Asian women who grow up in majority white neighborhoods are probably more likely to marry whites than those who grew up in majority Asian neighborhoods. That can be true even if Asian women who grew up in Asian neighborhoods also tend to date and marry whites. That in no way implies that Asian women who grew up in majority Asian neighborhoods would not also have a tendency to date or marry whites. The statement does not imply that the composition of the neighborhood is the only factor. Obviously, the glorification of white males in textbooks and in the media is also a factor (among other factors), if not a more important one.
For example, an Asian woman who grew up in a hyper white neighborhood (>90% white) might be 90% likely to date / marry a white man, whereas an Asian woman who grew up in a 40% white neighborhood could have a 60% likelihood of dating / marrying a white man. Therefore both your assertion and Abagond’s assertion could simultaneously be true.
The fact that white women who grew up in neighborhoods with a high percentage of blacks are more likely to marry whites than those from hyperwhite neighborhood implies that factors besides the racial proportion figures into the equation. For example, if a black person grew up in a 95% / 4% Asian neighborhood, he is likely to identify more socially with whites than a black person who grew up in a 50% white / 40% black neighborhood. So, in the former case, you might see more black / white pairings than in the latter.
So I don’t see any contradiction at all in either of the statements.
He did not say that women choose male partners based on the respective racial proportion in the neighborhood.
Anyhow,
– Just because the census bureaus lumps all various types of Asians into one category does not mean that they see themselves that way. For example, even if Asians in a place like Cupertino outnumbered whites 2 to 1, Taiwanese-Americans and Indian Americans separately may not outnumber whites. So a Taiwanese American female may still find more white men available then taiwanese American male, and might not view the Indian American male as simply another ingroup Asian.
Besides, there are exceedingly very few hyper-Asian neighborhoods in the USA (>90% Asian). The same does not hold true for blacks and whites.
I still think something is seriously messed up. Loving v. Virginia overturned anti-miscegenation laws in 1967, and the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization act came into full effect in 1968. Until the 1960s, Asian men could not easily find spouses. But as soon a the gender imbalance started to improve a decade later, the women went straight for white men. I really want to know exactly what caused that. And it must have affected both sides, ie, Asian women and white men. It must be a combination of the American wars in Asia (which caused white men to objectify Asian women) as well as the campaign for emasculation and demonization of Asian men, as well as internalized racism as experienced by Asians (both males and females). The women rights’ movement may have been a factor, making white women less attractive to white men (to some extent – enough to make some men turn their attention to Asian women).
Pre 70s, the stereotype of the Asian female was not entirely good either, but seemed to change during that decade.
The only children I grew up with who had Asian mothers and white Dads were war bride kids. So, the situation you witness in the 2000s does not really have that long a history.
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Let me rephrase this statement.
He did not say that women choose male partners based on the respective racial proportion in the neighborhood.
–>
He did not say that women choose male partners solely based on the respective racial proportion in the neighborhood. Noticing some correlation does not imply that there is any causation factor.
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divorced again, *sigh* it didn’t work out with getting high and drinking i am glad i made it out of the hood, wrote off another car, computers, $1500 laser printer, cat, etc but i am tired of getting hit in the face and bit etc etc and god forbid i hear someone say i want another hit or i’ma go out and get my own, hey i didn’t get locked up this time and i didn’t hit her back thank god
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Idk we had a real bad fight last night but she called me i guess i will see her in an hour… At least we’re sober…
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Apparently i got hit in the head with a frying pan. Huh. Well we’re together again
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well, sittin here with the wife, goin to jail for a couple weeks tomorrow gotta have faith!!!
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well i didn’t go up, they made me an offer i couldn’t refuse, somebody got their taxes back i got wifi again!
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our ‘safe word’ is “Stop!”
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Weeel now, what do we have here now, that didn’t work so well last night. it’s somewhat ‘freeing’ in some odd sense, in that here i can post, and i’m not linked directly by name? and she is not really ready to start doing anything but well as she is now somewhere else drinking and smokin weed. Also, here i have covered more (on a psychological/rationale tip) than my wife and me have, sort of a test run untill i can pull my syntax and cogency together, and write that stupid 5th step book and be done with it. i also recently (not last night) ‘test ran’ some of the i guess, intensity of the experiences i’ve had, in a sex regard, and it was not well received by the wife here (just by that i mean leatting her know how depressed and high and lonely and frustrated and acted the *f* out back in the day, with out question)… last night was not going so good, she was hitting me you know, i just get like wow ok stars someones punchin me i mean i just go somewhere else in shit like that its good i dont drink vodka at the house anymore. and she kept doin it it’s rediculous she has multiple personalities, but plays a game like oh i don’t remember that? and you can’t really tell, and also, the alcohol and drugs is not making the water clearer. so the place we met was my old house, thats for the book and then at someones house which got all the windows broke out of it and everything out side, i guess a forcible evicition? ande then we wound up hanging out over someone elses house for a couple months before we ‘got together’ (ie ghetto bullshit move in with someone immediately) and that woman died last night so to interprete it that there was some type of connection made that will never happen again to anyone (A) and (B) that the universe is healing itself of that damage to nature that happened in that instance (in a MMORPG sense) or sealing up the way back into the madness that brought us together.
have a safe and blessed day
-tc
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https://wordpress.com/post/48176881/22
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oh thank god she walking her dog now needed a minute to collect my thoughts… just trying to get out of the hood. she amazed me last night before open hostilities broke out into full chaos but idk? i was up for a few days straight:
she challenged me to a 7 page writing project as a challenge, hard deadline, you say?
my syntax is not so perfect well it will be more like writing to open up word or openoffice instead of just blabbing on someone’s blog again,
i hate it when she says ‘whatever’ like that
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Im torn .. I know i dont want to go all sordid, maudlin like… My mentor stone deigns to admit me to the thrift shop again…
Not a business plan or the vaunted white liberal nonprofit business plan either hmmm i started already on pnp pen and paper
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well, she’s moving out today, it didn’t work out. her friend (a femal) hit me with a 2×4 a couple times, and the cops came out, no arrests were made. i’m too tired to express emotion although i’m starting to get that feeling, you know, when it’s sinking in? I’ll be alright, and I won’t have to feel bad about not spending $25-30 a day on weed and beer
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well i got through today with flying colors, just tryin not to not get high!!!!
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Well she wants to get back together, shes in outpatient and … Well idk i do still love her, not totally a fan of being married and livibg separately, but, hey, anything to keep the body count down, i reckon
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Well that was embarrassing posting in the wrong thread but 2000+ comments makes androids kind of twitchy… anyway
Well this should prove be even more interesting as my wife has informed she signed up for abagond. In recent retrospection, most of the salient if not most of the salubrious details are hidden away like easter eggs all over this site.. i told her i kind of took over and dominated this thread also.
*ping*
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Its coming up oh lets take that up on abagond and she say gonna post that well technically she drank herself into an in and out blackout and is considered unconscious but its something white code 4 letter white code this actually by having no google joy whatsoever is significant we shall see
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And i meant salacious but it was salubrious like thats rough from a logos/venial sin perspective but salubrious from confession standpoint a question for the ages apparently it sells too
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oo i started my intramarital writing competition essay it is based on an actual event that ended up in some police telling me to chug a beer which i couldn’t kill in one shot but then the squad leader took it away from me for the ‘last’ sip after i told my friend across the street ‘now that’s white privilege’
anyway, say it like you’re from jersey
I had an interesting experience yesterday. My wife, who is black, and I, who am white, were leaving the house to go out for dinner and a date. We live in a rooming house, and both felt the need to get out of the house as soon as possible. I had a can of beer which I had not finished and as we walked down the block to go around the corner to the trolley stop, I proceeded to consume my beer. We live in Southwest Philly, and since the weather has broken and spring has sprung, so to speak, the 12th district police station has seen fit to send junior officers around on foot to patrol our neighborhood.
As we were in relatively good spirits and glad to have been getting out of the house, my wife and I were laughing and joking when, lo and behold, a squad of five patrolmen in crisp, new uniforms came walking across our field of view from around the corner. They were heading perpendicular to us, and I, being somewhat loud happened to opine, “Oh, look there’s five cops, what do they have, 18 shots each in their guns, that’s a whole lot of bullets to put in someone!”
At that point the team leader, or alpha cop, must have gotten some type of vibe, or perhaps he just heard me, and his head swiveled like an owl to home in on my position. He looked at my face, and then down to my hands, of course, and having seen my beer, he quickly plotted a course towards me, saying, “Hey, yo, come here.”
I put the beer down on the ground. A couple of friends of mine, who are black, one of whom who was drinking a beer were standing right next to me. Johnny left his beer on the hood of the car he was repairing and my two friends retired across our street to watch the festivities.
The alpha cop was a short white man (I am 5’6” and I had a couple inches on him), and he had a tall white male backup officer, a medium height white male officer, and two shorter Puerto Rican or Caribbean-appearing Hispanic males to round out their complement.
The alpha cop had something to say to me along the lines of, “You know you’re not supposed to be drinking that in public, right?”
I said, “So can I go back to the steps where it’s private property and finish my beer?”
tbc
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had an exceeding unpleasant discussion with miss t, whom i have mentiioned a lot, i feel the need to react to situations, to capture it in time, at the least, when the wierdness of drugs and wickedness surface, that cause me extreme mental distress, it’s not a black or white thing, it’s the street on american society, if you don’t know may i suggest asking someone
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omg it was like something out of h.p lovecraft but we went there, i think a lot of people can’t do that,
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And then we got high it was ibsen and kafka writing on h.p. lovecraft, the whole house ‘all arms are turned against you’ -dune frank herbert well as long as the landlord likes them ‘notes’
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‘all hands turned against you’? something like that it’s a voice over when the ornithopter with paul atreides and jessica crashes seriously it was everyone vs tom night last night, but i sure aint innocent, ughh…
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well we got out of the hood, it wasn’t like we had the resources to fix everything!
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we are competitive of total friend on fb count! alphas, you know
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Fighting (arguing) real bad this week especially ladt nite/todsy. It does not look like we’re going to make it together.
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Wrll she stole my laptop and Was harrassing me bad so i started running after hrr bc i wanted my keys and she fell and hurt her knee and apparently is pressing charges so i might not be around for acwhile hv a nuce day
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And… shes pregnant
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She says she’ll take me back – and drop the restraining order – if i go to rehab, wish me luck. I have cleared my calendar
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had a nice little stay on the psych ward well now i have my medicine again
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well i get to go to dual diagnosis outpatient today how nice, no alchohol seems to be the way for me to function?
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i’m going to have to have a few clean pees and go to court etc etc i need to see my kids.
pretty sure this one is not pregnant, the first test was + but two more negative she still aint had her period in like almost 3 months who the f knows, jesus christ!
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Strike that, reverse it!
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things are a lot better, her friends obviously, are very skeptical,
i for one have not gotten one phone call from a friend ie during this whole lastest ‘event’.
we were struggling to define it today, in a good-natured manner, before she headed out. she has a job now too, idk
she said something after i said it’s just the wildness comes out and she said you shouldn’t have been sleeping in those parks and in the woods homeless
i said with boy scouts i was homeless in the woods every weekend and a week every summer.
she said they did that shit to you a long time ago.
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YO SHE INTERROGATE ME IN MY SLEEP I CANT EVEN LIE
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know what? take off the top 4 layers or so of skin i promise you we are all the same color
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so i signed a no alchohol clause in my lease today how fun well the landlord that apparently i got in a fight with signed the house over to this white girl his siter in law his brother continues to live there. the lights are on. apparently it was at my wife’s insistence. i agreed on gp.
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my proposal for a no yelling at me slamming doors etc at 0400 it’s called the no drama clause in an effort to display respect basically? for the neighbors, how fun, but we go through this everyday
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Damm V8 I’m not sure what advise to give. Seems like theirs a lot of craziness going on. Those of us who are in less volatile relationships must be blessed.
Life is busy and stressful and we are always running out of time. One aspect is that we need each other to reassure ourselves that everything is going to be OK.
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Sondis said.
“Can you say, “white identified, white washed, sell out?”
“which is typical of black women, who date white men. Black women, take on white men’s ideology.”
I’d say that’s mostly true.
I’ve met black women who would never date a black man and whose preference was only white men. Maybe that’s what you mean by “white identified, white washed, sell out” and I would agree with that.
That said my wife never came from that kind of thinking and would find that an insult. Has she adopted some “white ideology” ? Probably. But like wise I have a adopted some “black ideology” (if that’s possible) so theirs a balance..
I think that people who date a particular race because that is their sexual preference fetishize the relationship. Instead of dating an individual they are attempting to fulfill some perceived “need”. It objectivizes the other individual as a thing instead of viewing them as a person and accepting their humanity.
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well the counter to my counter proposal was that we both had to sign it since i was not ever really silent when hearing my lovely wife’s opinion, regardless of time of day.
thanks, mjb, it’s a lot to handle, but more and more i hear myself saying everything’s going to be alright as long as i don’t drink
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https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207334920519819&id=1489932727&prof&ls=your_photo_permalink&ref_component=mbasic_photo_permalink&ref_page=%2Fwap%2Fphoto.php&refid=13&ref=bookmarks
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Had another relapse. Not good. My wife may be quite rude for long periods of time but she is the most loyal person i ever met and im convinced she loves me more than my mom and i told her so. Also got to ask her how she liked being called a cr@cker lover too. Also got to say whattayamean respect ie around the way. Sorry bout that. Real rap i was introduced to alcohol as a toddler (saw a pic) been drinkin since 8 yrs old omg i am goin thru it, still working…. ugh!!!!
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Then u be in the doghouse all week and come home friday after bustin ur azz all week and kissin her azz and she be goin up gdmt
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i am frickin annoyed today she is tryin to drag me back to smoking and gets mad she isnt getting other stuff omg
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stuck up spoiled brat i called her believe me that’s mild to what was coming out of her mouth she’s drinkin every day again too omg
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i do owe her $1400 in payroll, ugh and they’re slow paying another job sheesh she’s broke and i’m into her for almost 2 stacks just two manipulative addicted alphas *whee*
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she gave me the and i quote ‘you are damaged beyond repair’ speech the other day, well it’s i guess a wan flagging breeze you’d say, in the meadow of marital bless
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idk she can get so far afield smoking this street shit, i brought in $1500 last week off my legitamete own self-made business and it’s gone and she’s like ah i’m not satisfied … so hard to get the point across without verging in the ditch going into personal business/medical problems all us middle-age people be encountering for the first time with no medical coverage, she disclaims all responsibility, christians, i tell ya! oh sorry, black israelite
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i did have to spend $250 at home depot for parts, and it still needs more cable the one job jesus!
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guess i’m getting that trapped feeling again… little bit. there is no building supplied heat here, and our little electric heater makes the circuit in our room that goes to the electric box that looks like frankenstein’s monster — totally illegal and bypassed meter electric — cut off twice a day now and it’s not even snowing this is not good, man
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eh and they moved all our overflow belongings into the wet azz basement where the illegal water inlet is leaking all over, and the bull downstiars brother of the landlord was crackin on my wife i took me a hit and i was like to smash his nose flat i had it all lined up its time to move so i brought all our stuff back upstairs wow this is an abomination man i’m glad she ran off back down to sw to her friend that get her high she says she’s not smoking no more but she brings back a stem every time she goes down there, the girl friend sniffs and is trouble big time
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i have to work tonight, i hope i don’t have an overnight layover like outside but its a possiblity and i have some paperwork to do thank god she took off
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https://www.facebook.com/ConlonEnterprises?ref=br_rs
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and she’s drunk already it’s 0930 on a sunday … got me a little weed and a few bucks left, no alchohol no crack that’s all i can do about it right now, …
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sheesh that took a minute to process,. but i had just calld her to remind her i’m working tonight, she insinuated on fb that she was going to watch the game here, but i didn’t get to the part i found a live streaming site for the fox affiliate here she launched into a screed regarding how her god is going to make me suffer by making sure i have no money because it’s the root of all evil, but i didn’t get to even think except in hindsight of course that we don’t need to smoke crack to ensure that happens, i merely need to pay my child support even, it’ll be easier if i get my electrician license and be able to hire some kids to drive the trucks and stuff
wow she been talkin about her ged too it’s all messed up we both need to go to the dentist and the doctor, man, i tell ya
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sorry insinuated on fb she was going to watch the game there ie in sw as in not home where i’m at
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v8driver
I see you use abagonds forum as a public diary. I guess you find it cathartic???? I admit I am intrigued as to why you write your personal things on here or maybe abagond PM’s you and provides support? Just a thought but perhaps you should share what you write with your lady friend so she understands where you are coming from. Meantime, I find it incredible that you are able to join in with some of the more challenging posts and present lucid considering what you are dealing with.
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my wife knows i post here, i am trying to be able to write, if you knew me a few years ago when i woke up with a dead girlfriend in my room, like abagond an every one else did…
yah i talk ish here because i can, because abagond lets me do it, because i have a black wife, and share issues having lived in the black community for a long time,
furthermore i have been communicating in this format ie BBS style communication since it was possible with dial-up modems
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anyway, it is switched over to ‘texting’ channel, we have established friendly communications again, the day aint gone south yet, *grumble*
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Wow, this guy epgah has sought me out. On wordpress, at my defunct, or at least deprecated irrirl blog, which i have ignored since i vent my personals here. It’s not linked off my gravatar — that goes to my facebook link. It’s 2245 and i’m on my last train home from work and it’s been a trying day from the gate…
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and… she’s high when i get home, i am pretty sure there is a spiritual warfare component to this whole shell game in general at some level, maybe more basic than commonly intuited anyway gn fam
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sometimes i just think about moving while she’s out
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I’m writing here, even yet then… maybe my kids can read this some day. First of all, you don’t even know; maybe so you don’t have to? Mostly just because I can. Also, i could wind up dead and this will provide valuable information to investigators! Look, I’m even back to punctuation. period, 2 spaces.
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it is class and race
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we’re both home and off today hopefully it will go better than last weekend!!!
and I am in no wise going to my irr blog on wordpress that i haven’t looked at in 2 years and rply to epgah gtfo i am not enterntaining that bs for one second
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No, I’m not ready to go back to my blog irrirl.wordpress, I am just about using punctuation and capital letters now. So, there’s a lot of stuff i have to say! it was an incident i was describing the lead tech using a racial slur, it didn’t go well, i could make excuses but… tbc
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I’m not anti-interracial relationships (even though I’m not sure I personally could be in one). What I do have an issue with is when black folks say they refuse to date other black folks. Their reasons for this are deeply rooted in self hate, stereotypes, and closed mindedness. I say close mindedness because most of the guys and and people who have hit me up here have cited their personal experiences with certain black people as reasons as to why they don’t date within their race, basically generalizing an entire race which is simply… dumb and illogical. I don’t have an issue with people dating outside their race, as long as it’s for the ‘right’ reasons and no one is being fetishized and that they still respect black people. Being pro-Black isn’t the same as being anti white.
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…Though being anti-white is…justifiable in my mind.
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fetishism has been hotly contested here in the past but i think you can express physical preferences without being all creepy about it!
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its getting better with the wife yet but our heating situation is not good now this is the landlord’s solution? idk he’s here workin on the house its no heat
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it’s our technical one year anniversary today i bought her a chain and some hoop earrings that she prefers i got some a– last night
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And… she’s home
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naa tonigfght she came home drunk and high and is even now constantly getting crack and not even sharing this is a effin disaster i don’t even want to be here but i refuse to sleep on the street tonight
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This is off topic, but where did she get money to buy crack?
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her girlfriend back in our old neighborhood where she grew up; the friend has a job and is got her hustle on fleek so it’s nothing like you are implying, i am assured, that is the one thing we can always fall back on that we never cheated on each other
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she was supposed to give me $40 because i paid rent and spent a *load on it this week, and gives me $20 and takes it right back, it sounds wierd but she just goes down there and ‘borrows’ it, it’s just wierd, believe me, i know.
anyway i got drunk on july 4 and her birthday so she’s catching up, we apparently got divorced on fb she hacked my page, i had to change my damn password, ugh i was just like running out the door when her mouth got too severe ‘stern’ she says it’s embarrassing we fight like trailer park heroes
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or she gets credit, it is really out of control, she has mentioned rehab at least 5-6 times in the last month i hope she does it, i really worked on my drinking, and have to every day
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It is hard to maintain your sobriety if your spouse is still using intoxicants. I hope she goes into re-hab and you maintain your sobriety.
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thanks, herneith i always liked your sense of humor as well, but anyway, i favor some british and american systems where it is a harm reduction, canadian too
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which means i am an inveterate and incorrigible marijuana smoker
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at some point sober means not blacked out or schized out
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but that’s rationalization and technically a reservation oh well, it’s also deflective to insert my religious issues with people at meetings
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i guess it’s time for me to start writing chapters, i think my attention span level has reached nominal values for that all, and at least i can get to the computer it’s separated from the tv finally
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Interracial relationships in America involve a white person 90% of the time for a reason. The most common interracial pairings are outright based on stereotypes. Asian woman/white man relationships are so common because Asian people, as a whole, are looked at as more feminine in the eyes of casual white supremacist beliefs. At the same time, black male/white female relationships are almost as common because black people are stereotyped as more masculine as a whole in the gaze of the white lens.
This is the reason why black female/Asian male relationships are the least common of any interracial pairing. It is also not a coincidence that Asian men and black women are considered to be the most undesirable people in terms of dating, sex and relationships. Asian men are stereotyped as being small, feminine, weak, nerdy, uncool and having small members. Black women are stereotyped as rough, masculine, unattractive, angry, bitchy, ready to fight, overweight as well as sexually promiscuous. The real reason Asian men and black women are considered unattractive and undesirable is because Asian people and black people are stereotyped as opposite extremes in relation to the lie of white normalcy. Everyday, I see tall, muscular attractive Asian men and beautiful well-mannered black women. Yet, simply being an Asian man or black woman carries a heavy stigma associated with these stereotypes even when the stereotypes don’t apply.
It is not a coincidence that although black women and Asian men are more educated than average and more likely to be independent and employed, they are still seen as undesirable because of white-conceived stereotypes about their personalities and bodies.
The current state of interracial relationships in America is to whiten minority populations here much like what was done in Latin America over hundreds of years. Minorities are often oddly set up to oppose one another in terms of interracial dating in America and it trickles down to who we choose to date and marry as well. Non-black minorities often hold blacks in contempt and do not choose them as spouses or lovers. Even black Latinos in America often go out of their way to say that they aren’t black and often dislike American blacks. I have known Dominicans and Puerto Ricans who look no different from lighter skinned blacks talk down on American blacks the same way white people would. Many Asian families encourage their daughters to date white men but would disown them if they brought a black man home. Similarly, many mestizo families would be okay with their daughter dating a white guy, but the male relatives would be up in arms and ready to hurt somebody if their sister or cousin ever dated a black guy.
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an interesting phrase she brought up just now, a new one even then, ‘the only thing you buy friendly is …’ we were talking about sharing,
resource competition is real we have two carnivorous animals in our room too
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@FearofAMixedPlanet
if i may, what are you?
personally, i got into it with kiwi excatly one time that i recall, and it wasn’t that deep, i think he is taking a lot of crap lately!
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@abagond I’m not able to search too good, i guess as matari says i need to stop rambling on, i need a lexicon, as to avoid broken records!
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eh? my one ex from USC was japanese from HI. she liked black guys more than white i think though.
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i have gotten sh_tty side-eye looks in a wide variety of states with a non-white girl as i don’t really date them… except california, really, ny now lately but…
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i’m enjoying explaining this you do have 4 step children thing, like relishing it
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and? she just gave me a cigarette w00t
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anybody else finished their binge watch of “Truth be Told” the tv show? It shows ‘black love’ with the black couple and the other couple is white/hapa, so it’s something, and it made me laugh actually which surprised me
also ironic persuant to someone that used to come here (diary)
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omg she went to see her girlfriend on nye (early) and fell on the way home down the steps and knocked her own damn tooth out i was home at the time!!!
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The main thing im takin away shes inside smokin her little bag. Now is tbis year with no license is forcing me back to youth and she is presenting her chilhood trauma whivh is legitimate and worse omg you dobt have no idea both together
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*ping* in honor of vernie, her sister re: her tooth
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i hope the criminal charges from my wife will be resolved favorably in a couple weeks, and my child suppor tis so effed up and i had so many duis its impossible for me to clear a background now sheesh party party party i mean i have had an overarched orchestrated movement of my own to make her understand, what i mean some times and how i was trained to run a small business and manage money and study on my 21st bday for a hebrew final that i passed ah man im’ tryin not to say you dont want to learn or this is a teaching moment like jesus she has come up levels too since we met this last time it’s frightening the typical male insecurities come out but i am just all over the city for work i love my job and i meet a lot of people too and go to malls to get paid not shop even although the economy is really tanking that is part of the story too
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*sheesh*!!!
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and every day its a battle vs alcohol omg i used to always have a beer can in my hand or a 40 oz
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🙂
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omg we’re arguing
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pretty sure sunday night is the statistaclly highest collector of domestic violence
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she’s not trying to hear i need 30 dfays clean off that shit i want to see my boys especially the girl too
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i want to tell my boys even more than sensing (?) is sometimes waiting
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i put her pipe in her beer can and busted it and she tried to pull my particularly left eyeball out how nice any way out
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omg she be trying to make me feel guilty
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wow this is some type of nexus for sure
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idk someone aske me why i write, and well there is just something there
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i think it was some type of way from a wp email i found an article never have an affair with a memoir writer
she says tell them she fuckin hates me
ok honey
lets go there
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thank the goddess of luck her name is fortuna she is on team j another issue wow you just dont even know blessed be
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because i waited you know? it was real slow and we were high? in december pretty much all month oh wow and it takes a while but my money comes back idk bonnie raitt said it you mighta made you move a little bit too soon i keep tryin to tell her idk i love her ass but omg
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oh yeah the other annoynce i am is i know what is the struggle
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i want to run
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I literally have 47000 free air miles omg of course i cant leave th country and im definitely banned from canada they hate drunk drivers like me
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um i do spit on the floor
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“When the demons come it won’t be ‘elves this, humans that.’ It will just be us and them.”
-Terry Brooks
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no i hate feeling trapped. its all a trap, food everything, but you know the body was designed to have teeth and eat, it’s just not clear you know tanha and will and supposed endorphins it’s just like triflin i do not enjoy life in general
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no man, for real i am taking my first steps i had to turn away while she was smoking but jesus christ you dont even know
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‘key your mic if ya caint talk son’ over
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it’s over i cant take it anymore she’s been smokin crack every day for like 2 weeks, and i had some tequila last night and wound up getting hit with a baseball bat and pushed down the stairs eff it man i cannot sacrifice myself for someone that cant stop smoking
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I’m a little sad, i guesss that’s to be expected but whatever is going on with her is going to run its course, hell, high water, ir moonpies, i reckon. i’m moving out completely tomorrow; i have an exit strategy in process. I’m down to the computer and what i can carry on me but i think my ankle is broken, not sure, that did not make moving out my stuff easy yesterday! I’m kind of holing uo now — I’ll go to the hospital if it doesn’t ‘resolve’ in another day. I’m annoyed ppl be sending msgs on fb and crap noone’s even called, just goes to show i shouldn’t have isolated so much, but i haven’t really found ppl that don’t drink or get high. I’m not much for the whole AA/NA milieu, although i see some meetings in my future. I have even resolved to give up ny beloved newports, ugh, 24 hrs sober/cig free so far. I guess i’m not getting arrested over this one. Is there some wierdness in this like i’m trying to prove it’s not about black v white? Of course. However, i am totally not even concerned with dating/getting laid etc at all, it’s mission time.
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I can smell her yet, not perfume etc. That hurts the most but will clear up soon enough. I hope she gets these dumb cats, crazy when you have a paradigm or ‘default’ shift, right?
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*somewhat sideways look* at pumpkin
Anyway… no, that was just random!
It’s over i dont have to (can’t) see her today i been begging her to let me go
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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208399689058367&id=1489932727&refid=17&ref=bookmarks&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10208399689058367%3Atl_objid.10208399689058367%3Athid.1489932727%3A306061129499414%3A2%3A0%3A1456819199%3A6429909394761099866
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ah lord it looks like this break is not going to be clean, i’m not going to see her until next week however, i need a damn break!
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Well we forgave each other, apparently she had clocked me on the head with an 8″ cassarole dish before i got into it with the neighbor, *sigh*
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Yo its kinda helpful even to take a few days hard break even from the spouse occassionally you really don’t have to cheat or nothin. Or move out? Idk she said it wasnt boring.
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It’s a first in that we’ve officially exchanged addresses this time, it gives credence to a non restraining order scenario, even. Like she will come over, i was up til next tues on not talking to her she called me today too.
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@v8driver
Comment deleted for speaking a name that shall not be spoken.
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@PUMPKIN on the android you have to scroll back to the top to comment, and the bottom for the recent comments list; on the computer, you have to scroll to the bottom to comment, and the top to see the most recent comments!
I tend to take the “/comment-xxxxxx” out of the url (web address) on the phone and hit ‘go’ to reply or start a new comment ‘tangent’, it is still a pain in the you know what, and quite slow.
and well she’s got her tax refund and been out of contact for a couple days, she’ll call when she’s broke or had enough i suppose. i ain’t worryin about it right now, i just need to not drink although i had a couple sips during the game sunday. she’ll come back.
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Everyone ignore my last comment i was wrong i guess we are back together just noy living together, thanks for puttin up with me again
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wow idk what happened, i am blessed today, i was even able to explain my religion to someone, a friend, you know, i told her as she more or less finished talking about her angst and rage against her catholic God, i was able to say that i gravitate more to a female — i didn’t say anthromorphization, that word was around the corner at that point — concept. The goddess, and my friend interjected, ‘love…’ and i kind of got back on point with the spiel ie ‘she manifests herself as luck, her name is fortuna.’ i mean it’s a valid point, and of course i continued about the personal distaste i am forced to consider as one would ‘kneel before a man’ such as a christian, so we left it at that, and i found someone’s plate of food, it was sealed, and i got a ride in a car, (hey that’s 4 times in one week) and $20, and my friend gave me some food too. wow
And, i beat my charges today, i even forgot about that, wow, and i am supposed to see my wife tomorrow, maybe i will wear my ring i think that would probably be in the spirit of so to speak.
it was touch and go not only my lawyer but the prosecutor both got my wife’s name wrong, the lawyer assumed the patrolman was going to testify, but they both had the name xxxx it was from another case, it was a joint mistake? very wierd. i guess when they work together so much…
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have a great day
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oh lord she is demanded the key and well my wedding ring it was calling me like gollum and the neighbor needs help its’ in a large rooming house it’s mixed white black and hispanic
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she snatched and robbed my chain just like the exwife excapt that one was 33g gold im supposed to get the new one back fixed even yeah right say it like you’re from new jersey
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na the exwife ran a nice mid long con it wasnt broken and the platinum wedding ring the first one ah that’s one thing you don’t want to go back from
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leah lost and/or broke every pice of jewelry i gave her and it was a bunch of stuff!
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but she amazes me what does she do? buy a laptop and a wifi hotspot like i mean that is cool
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well im wearing the ring again jesus mary and joseph my mom used to say
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@ Pumpkin
On my laptop I have HOME and END keys that I use to flip between the top and bottom of a page. On my phone I do not know how to jump to the bottom, other than to follow the link to a comment there.
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oh thank god she came over last nite and i have a date for valentine’s day, my magic is still working!
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so she stopped smoking she says and i say i stopped drinking how bout that
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This thread is now closed. Please continue to the repost:
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