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black women, white men

In America black women married to white men account for 29% of all black-and-white marriages. Among married black women, one in 35 has a white husband.  But among married white men less than 1 in 400 has a black wife. They are four times more likely to marry an Asian woman even though there are fewer of them.

Some things that work against white boy meeting black girl in America:

  • The ugly past – of white men raping black women in slave days does not help.
  • Separation of the races – which in schooling and housing is still strong despite the reforms of the 1950s and 1960s and the rise of the black middle-class.
  • Racialized beauty – mainstream American ideas of female beauty are white.
  • Stereotypes – white men tend to think of black women as being hard to get along with (the Sapphire stereotype) and not being much interested in white men. Black women tend to see white men as racist and therefore hard to trust.
  • Strange courting practices – most white men who have no trouble asking out black women seem to only want sex, while those who are serious tend to wait for black women to make the first move!
  • Racist dating behaviour – white men who, for example:
    • see black women as black first, women second;
    • see them as looser than white women;
    • think they will sleep with them for money;
    • are so blind to their racism they say racist stuff;
    • think black women want to be “saved” by a white man, any white man.

According to dating studies, black women prefer black men way more than white men, but despite that they are still more interested in white men than white men are interested in them. And white men’s lack of interest has been shown to go beyond “preferences” and ideas of beauty.

I have argued elsewhere on this blog that the root cause of that lack of serious interest is the One Drop Rule: white men do not want black sons and daughters.

Given all this, it comes as no surprise that the white men who are seriously interested in black women, serious enough to marry them, tend to be those with independent minds who do not care what others think of them. So they tend to have no style, no game, they have geeky interests (computers, Star Trek) and work in fields where they do not depend on people liking them – like engineering, auto mechanics or accounting as opposed to sales, law or management.

Since they are not concerned what others think, they will date women of any race. You often see them with Asian women but they will date black women too. They are more interested in a woman’s intelligence and personality, someone they can talk to for hours, than in a particular look. So they do not just go for light-skinned women with long, straight hair like you might expect.

See also:

628 Responses

  1. I think there is some truth this analysis of why white people often shy away from relationships with black people. Many likely worry about having kids who are socially categorized as black because of the social problems that beset those who are.

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  2. What about Black women, White women? I’d be interested in hearing about why these two groups are or are not getting together.

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  3. I think this is much more in US than in Europe not to mention Thads Brazil or other countries.

    I could marry a black woman, no problem, even though I am not a nerd by any measure. But not because she is black, but because she is the right woman for me. And I don’t care if you are light brown, dark light brown, golden brown, brown brown, brown dark, dark brown dark, light dark, darker light dark, just dark, dark dark, light black, light brown black, brown black, light dark black, dark dark black, or just black, 1% black, 4,57% black, 1/2 10,5% black, 56,44537% black, tennessee/eascoast/westside/northstate black or what ever cathergories you guys have in USA. She is a woman first and foremost.

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  4. I’m pro-loving relationships (not the Lovings, even though they’re fine too, but loving ;)). So I encourage all women and black women in particular to find such relationships, regardless of race.

    Okay, long comment…

    “The ugly past – of white men raping black women in slave days does not help.”

    I guess the past and current situation of black men raping black women makes no difference?

    Seriously, I get where people are coming from with this, but I think it’s really myopic.

    “Separation of the races – which in schooling and housing is still strong despite the reforms of the 1950s and 1960s and the rise of the black middle-class.”

    This is being changed by black women’s continuing gains in education.

    “Racialized beauty – mainstream American ideas of female beauty are white.”

    This affects the way ALL men view black women, not just white men. One could even present the argument that some white men don’t put as much of an emphasis on it because they’re used to it.

    “Stereotypes – white men tend to think of black women as being hard to get along with (the Sapphire stereotype) and not being much interested in white men.”

    To the first part: black men, in my experience, think this WAY more than white men do. Even you yourself, abagond, said that black women were harder to deal with.

    The second part: true.

    “Strange courting practices – the white men who have no trouble asking out black women seem to only want sex, while those who are serious tend to wait for black women to make the first move!”

    Untrue. I know many black women/white men couples where the man approached the woman. They had to feel that the woman was open to approach, yes.

    Furthermore, the likelihood that any man approaching a woman is only interested in sex is very high, regardless of race.

    “Racist dating behaviour – white men who, for example:

    ◦see them as looser than white women

    Don’t know any who do; I seriously think this a stereotype of the past. I know some who think the reverse, however.

    “◦think they will sleep with them for money”

    How many white men think this? That aren’t looking for prostitutes? I haven’t run into any in the U.S. I’m sure some exist, however.

    “◦are so blind to their racism they say racist stuff”

    True, their racism barometer is much less keen than the average black person’s. They learn quickly though.

    “◦think black women want to be “saved” by a white man, any white man.”

    Again: don’t know any. (They don’t think black women want them, period.)

    Is this what black people think white men think? Or did some white men tell you all this?

    “So they tend to have no style, no game, they have geeky interests (computers, Star Trek) and work in fields where they do not depend on people liking them – like engineering, auto mechanics “

    Why do people think this?

    Not that I’m at all interested in “game” (*barf*) and I like computers too, so that’s fine. But my SO does not fit this profile in the least. Independent-minded, but he laughs at Trekkie/Harry Potter enthusiasts.

    “You often see them with Asian women but they will date black women too.”

    From the women might SO has pointed out as being attractive to him, an Asian women seems the last on his list; the only ones he seems to like are hapas. Racist? Hmmm…

    “So they do not just go for light-skinned women with long, straight hair like you might expect.”

    I’m light-skinned (well, depending on the subjectivity factor of what that means, of course). And I had long, straight hair when I met him. So maybe we just defy all stereotypes.

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  5. how about the possibility that white men just aren’t as innately attracted to black women? it has nothing to do with socially structured beauty ideals.

    the same can be said of black women and their attraction (or lack of) to white men.

    and you haven’t shown much evidence that this fear of One Drop holds. white men don’t seem much afraid of one drop of Asian blood or Latino blood.

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  6. “I could marry a black woman, no problem, even though I am not a nerd by any measure. But not because she is black, but because she is the right woman for me. And I don’t care if you are light brown, dark light brown, golden brown, brown brown, brown dark, dark brown dark, light dark, darker light dark, just dark, dark dark, light black, light brown black, brown black, light dark black, dark dark black, or just black, 1% black, 4,57% black, 1/2 10,5% black, 56,44537% black, tennessee/eascoast/westside/northstate black or what ever cathergories you guys have in USA. She is a woman first and foremost.”

    That’s really nice idealism and all, but in concrete social conditions in the US, some of those differences do matter just as the distinction between those who are 100% white and those who aren’t matters. Part of the problem is that there is an official ideology that such distinctions are non-existent when in fact much social prejudice is based on them (as reflected in many of the heated comments left on this website) so that much discrimination and social exclusion becomes invisible.

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  7. @sam……thank you for making me laugh sooooo hard…

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  8. Chuck,

    “how about the possibility that white men just aren’t as innately attracted to black women?”

    Why do you flip-flop so much? On your blog you weren’t saying this. Quite the opposite for yourself, in fact.

    And if the tremendous increase in black women/white men pairings in the last decade says anything, it’s that this is untrue.

    “the same can be said of black women and their attraction (or lack of) to white men.”

    Also untrue. You should stop hanging around those blogs; they are providing a skewed view.

    “and you haven’t shown much evidence that this fear of One Drop holds. white men don’t seem much afraid of one drop of Asian blood or Latino blood.”

    I think FG (hi, there!) posted a study which showed that whites pair more often with “white” Latinos.

    I think the emphasis here is on what black means in the U.S. society. Often times, hapas or those with one Latino parent aren’t “made” to choose one side, or they can pass for white which negates all of that.

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  9. how about the possibility that white men just aren’t as innately attracted to black women?

    Everywhere sexual segregation WASN’T brutally enforced, blacks and whites f***ed like rabbits, so I think we can comfortably dismiss this hypothesis.

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  10. The One Drop Rule does not seem to operate in the US in the ways many here think it does. As far as I can tell, anybody who has at least the “Mediterranean” phenotype can be socially white if they so choose, even if is known they are part African (like Jennifer Beals). However, if you have obvious non-white ancestry that shows up in your physical appearance, you’re unlikely to be considered white, even if you have no significant African ancestry (just ask Nezua).

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  11. Natasha:

    As usual you are incapable of understanding that I am discussing generalities. And I’ve never flip-flopped on this issue. I’ll defend a person’s right to choose their mates for themselves, but I am realistic about peoples attractions and mating/dating habits.

    Just because I find some black women attractive doesn’t mean that I find them as attractive as white women or that other white men find them just as attractive as I do. I realize that the races are mostly attracted to their own race; it is biologically engrained in us to do so. Examples to the contrary don’t disprove that general notion.

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  12. ^^I’m not going to lie, I laughed at that.:-)

    Natasha–maybe it’s an age thing? I think Abagond is old enough to be my dad (no offense!), and I think the experience Black women over 35 have with White men are different than the under 30 set (between 30 and 35 is a toss-up). Of course, you could say the same thing about Black women/Black men experiences and age, but that’s not the topic, so I digress.

    I only know one person my age who routinely espouses the fear of being used by a White man, and the irony of her saying that given her life circumstances knows no bounds. (For starters, the only guy who’s ever used her, in her very limited dating experience, is Black.) But on my campus, the majority of Black women seem to receive and acknowledge their relationship “power”: they expect to be the ones rejecting White men, not the other way around. I’m pretty sure I’m the only Black girl on campus currently dating someone non-Black (yes, the Black population is that small, and yes the majority of Blacks are single), but during the conversations about IR dating that tend to go on here (usually during meetings for the Black women’s social club) the girls tend to focus on whether they want to date a non-Black guy or not–the idea that said guy would be interested tends to be a given. So I guess they do have cause to fear rejection.:-)

    I tend to believe that many nerds are non-conformists by design; I don’t think it just applies to their relationship choices. Guys who were less popular in high school (my boyfriend calls himself “the least popular of the popular/the most popular of the unpopular”) don’t believe in their own hype as much and don’t see themselves as having enough “status” to be super-critical. But I’m also speaking from the perspective of someone who graduated high school not too long ago, and I don’t think the high school mentality has worn off quite yet (on me and my peers).

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  13. “That” = Thad’s comment. I’m watching “The Closer” and typing slowly.:-)

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  14. Jasmin says,
    Natasha–maybe it’s an age thing? I think Abagond is old enough to be my dad (no offense!), and I think the experience Black women over 35 have with White men are different than the under 30 set (between 30 and 35 is a toss-up). Of course, you could say the same thing about Black women/Black men experiences and age, but that’s not the topic, so I digress.

    laromana says,
    Jasmine, thanks for pointing out the difference age makes in BW/WM IRR’s in America. I can tell you from first hand experience that I’ve encountered ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE MOSTLY from American WM who are 35+.
    I was genuinely surprised to discover that MOST American WM who are younger (20’s-early 30’s) tend to have less trouble viewing/treating BW like NORMAL, HUMAN women.

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  15. Chuck,

    “Natasha:

    As usual you are incapable of understanding that I am discussing generalities. And I’ve never flip-flopped on this issue.”

    Lol!

    I do find it ever so funny when you play the “rational” act. Do it again — it’s so cute!

    Here’s you flip-flopping, read carefully…

    abagond says —

    “Some things that work against white boy meeting black girl in America:

    […]•Racialized beauty – mainstream American ideas of female beauty are white.[…]

    Chuck (on his blog, in response to a white male commenter who says “They’ve [black women] been pretty damned cool themselves, too… As women go, I was pretty impressed, actually.
    ) says —

    “I’ve never dated a black woman…Main reason being that I just bought in to the hype that black women didn’t go for white men.

    I suspect that a lot of the gridlock which has kept the demographic representation of WM/BF couples as low as it is stems from a mutual belief that one side didn’t care much for the other.”

    Chuck (here) says —

    “how about the possibility that white men just aren’t as innately attracted to black women? it has nothing to do with socially structured beauty ideals.”

    Everyone catch that marvelous backflip?

    Seems like Chuck says whatever will suit his purposes for the moment.

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  16. Natasha:

    And why would those two things be mutually exclusive? We can have gridlock as well as a mutual lack of attraction.

    A lot of the *gridlock* – meaning potential relationships that aren’t acted on – stems from a feeling that attraction is unrequited. At the same time there isn’t much of an impetus to even get to that gridlock state because there isn’t all that much attraction between WM and BF. The two are inextricably tied together.

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  17. Jasmin and laromana,

    I do think the age difference is pretty much THE difference. I’ve always dated whoever I was interested in; I never thought race was a huge deal and no one I dated ever made it such. Whenever I’m talking to an older black woman, I’m shocked by her experiences in the dating realm and experiences with white and other non-black men (actually, black men too). It was completely different for them, from what they say, and is still largely different. I too can “feel” the difference in attitude with white men based on age (and region of origin). I used to think it was just because all older people were stiffer, but older black men are much more friendly and open (not in a creepy way). So I don’t really blame older blacks and black women especially for not being as embracing of interracial relationships involving white men –so many older black women have decided to have a “talk” with me once they found out about my relationship– but it hasn’t been my experience, still the same.

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  18. Chuck, sure.

    All that you’ve said is there. Whatever you say now is just you doing what you always do: changing things up to suit your own purposes for the time being. Sadly, the audience doesn’t buy it.😦

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  19. In case anyone missed the last backflip (I’m giving you free press here, Chuck):

    Read where Chuck says “[what] has kept the demographic representation of WM/BF couples as low as it is stems from a mutual belief that one side didn’t care much for the other…” Note that he doesn’t mention anything about a lack of attraction from white men and that he talks about the entire demographic of BW/WM couples. Then, note in his last comment above that he attempts to do magic and say that he wasn’t talking about the couples as a whole but the “potential” couples.

    This reminds me of another acrobatic commenter, who I’m sure we all miss dearly…

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  20. Natasha,

    As you and Jasmin have pointed out, being an older BW, my experiences have been very different from yours. But I’ve also heard many of the same issues voiced by BW significantly (at least 10 years) younger than me. Much in your posts sound very ageist to me.

    WM thinking BW will have sex with them for money.

    Yes, all those WM “mistaking” everyday BW dressed in everything from tee-shirt and jeans to business attire and carrying briefcases for prostitutes. I’ve had this happen to me. At the time, there was absolutely nothing to distinguish me as a sex worker. The telling part was how the WM reacted to me understandable indignation at them labeling me as a sex worker. It was not immediate shame punctuated with a bunch of stuttered “I’m sorry”s or some hastily mutter apology with them beating cheeks to get as far away from me as quickly as possible. Nope, it’s been indignation from THEM. How dare I be insulted that they’re treating me like a streetwalker.

    I’ve also heard from two other BW, both significantly younger than I, about a new ploy some WM are using, the “charitable” john technique. As I’ve heard it described, said WM try to posit their attempts to buy sex off of BW as offering charity in the form of money to an obviously in-need woman. But of course, you ain’t gettin’ something for nutthin’.

    The thing is neither woman was at all in need nor gave any impression that they were. In both cases, the WM approached the BW with a little bit of friendly conversation and then the utter left-turn with the WM implying that the BW looked somehow in need and the “charitable” offer of money for sex. Basically, the WM pulled the “poverty-stricken BW” trope from the air (more like from their azzes) trying to gussy up propositioning and insulting a BW.

    Expecting BW to approach them and be the pursuers at least in the beginning of the relationship.

    Jasmin, you and I have talked about this at length. We see a LOT of that on sites meant for BW and WM to get together. We see a whole lot of WM whining about how HAAAAAAAARD it is to approach BW. Yet, da*n near NONE of them approach the BW on the board whose presence show they ARE most definitely interested in WM. I’ve seen many of those BW practically THROW themselves at the men on those boards, flirting, making all sorts of sexually suggestive comments, etc. Do these guys EVER bite? Nope. Just more posts about how BW need to do all the da*n work in the relationship, at least at the beginning.

    And these aren’t old, dried-up, worn-out, over-the-hill, 40-somethings like me. These are dudes in their 20s and 30s. There’s another issue with older WM. The ones who did what they were expected to do, marry and have children with WW even though they were attracted to a BW in particular or to BW in general and didn’t marry them due to the anti-BW racist cowardice (“What would people think of me if I married HER!?!?”) that laromana often cites.

    Then the marriage doesn’t work out. The guy gets divorced. The wife cleans him out. He’s no longer the fine specimen physically he was when he first got married. But NOW he wants a BW, preferably a young, nubile, unwrinkled sexy one with a great education (one that he may not even possess) and a good job (even if he didn’t require his White ex-wife to work outside the home while they were married) because someone’s gotta help him pay those child support payments and repair his now jacked-up credit. Many of them don’t even want BW their own age. If they’re open to that, then they’re not open to having anymore children even if said BW had been keeping her eggs on da8n near permanent hold waiting for a man to be a proper father to her potential children. Tough, he’s already got his [White] kids.

    “So they do not just go for light-skinned women with long, straight hair like you might expect.”

    I’m light-skinned (well, depending on the subjectivity factor of what that means, of course). And I had long, straight hair when I met him. So maybe we just defy all stereotypes.

    I think Abagond meant that WM who are interested in dating BW don’t zoom in on soley light-skinned women with long, straight hair like many other men do, not that they utterly disregard said women.

    I think it’s great that we dark-skinned, kinky-haired (of any length) women get love too.

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  21. Witchsistah,

    “Much in your posts sound very ageist to me.”

    It wasn’t meant to be ageist. I think Jasmin and I were just pointing out the differences we’ve noticed in experiences based on age and other factors. Otherwise, we’d be presenting this pie-in-the-sky, happy-go-lucky picture of BW/WM relations that isn’t representative of all.

    “We see a LOT of that on sites meant for BW and WM to get together. We see a whole lot of WM whining about how HAAAAAAAARD it is to approach BW.”

    They do that, I admit. Even offline.

    “I think Abagond meant that WM who are interested in dating BW don’t zoom in on soley light-skinned women with long, straight hair like many other men do, not that they utterly disregard said women.”

    I agree and I’ve said the same around these parts. But again, I don’t fit the stereotype. Online I sometimes wonder if my SO and I are just anomalies, but I know other couples like us.

    “I think it’s great that we dark-skinned, kinky-haired (of any length) women get love too.”

    I do too.

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  22. Jasmin and laromana,

    I do think the age difference is pretty much THE difference.

    This sounds very ageist to me.

    Natasha, I know our experiences are like night and day, but in what I see around me, I cannot believe that younger WM are suddenly all racially emancipated while us old farts (40+) are racially retrograde and doomed to stay that way.

    I hear from many younger folks about how hard it is to date out there PERIOD. Tons of assorted dumbassery that I, thank Goddess, did not have to deal with. I’ve heard the same complaints about dating IR from BW younger than I that I had. And these women are from all over the U.S., including the large, “progressive” cities.

    While I’m happy that yours and Jasmin’s experiences have been formidably positive, your experiences are no more universal than mine or other BW’s.

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  23. Witchsistah,

    “This sounds very ageist to me.”

    Well, the biggest differences I have noticed are with age and region. Sorry if that sounds like ageism, region-ism, or what have you, and no offense intended, but that has just been what I, and other black women, have experienced. If yours hasn’t been the same, that’s okay too.

    “I cannot believe that younger WM are suddenly all racially emancipated”

    Oh, they’re not. And I always point out that younger people still have a long way to go. I wouldn’t be here if they didn’t, since I happened on this blog while Googling for information on a racist comment made by a younger (than me) white guy.

    “…while us old farts (40+) are racially retrograde and doomed to stay that way.”

    No, just the white, male old farts.😉

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  24. You also have to take into account cultural differences. Some certainly percieve black women and American blacks in general as belonging to a non-mainstream or even oppositional sub-culture (which is apparently true in many cases). Ethnocentrism runs in the opposite direction as well of course.

    Furthermore, there are racial differences in ideal weight and figure. Islandgirl seems to be too thin for many in the black community but she isn’t excessively thin by white standards. If black women aim for the black standard, they’ll likely fall short of the white standard and vice-versa.

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  25. Natasha & Witchsistah,

    To elaborate, I don’t think age has an effect only in regards to dating practices (e.g., Natasha’s paragraph at 19:05, per the blog clock), but also in terms of what the people in question are looking for (which is why I mentioned Black men and then digressed). I couldn’t (and still can’t) relate to Abagond’s theory regarding White men not wanting Black children because I’m not trying to marry anyone any time soon, and neither are most of the men who approach me. So in my head, I keep on- and offline conversations separate, to an extent, because the majority of what I read online pertains to women (generally mid-thirties or older) looking for marriage partners, whereas none of the conversations I have in real life (with my friends/acquaintances around my age) do. In my college context, the only relationship distinctions are one-nighter, hookup, or “serious” relationship (meaning it says you’re in a relationship on Facebook :-)). Marriage and White men’s willingness–or lack thereof–to marry Black women just isn’t an issue.

    Jasmin, you and I have talked about this at length. We see a LOT of that on sites meant for BW and WM to get together. We see a whole lot of WM whining about how HAAAAAAAARD it is to approach BW. Yet, da*n near NONE of them approach the BW on the board whose presence show they ARE most definitely interested in WM. I’ve seen many of those BW practically THROW themselves at the men on those boards, flirting, making all sorts of sexually suggestive comments, etc. Do these guys EVER bite? Nope. Just more posts about how BW need to do all the da*n work in the relationship, at least at the beginning.

    Agreed, though I just always chalked it up to the Internet being some kind of alternate reality, because it doesn’t reflect my real life at all.:-) But I’m suspicious of plenty of folks online, especially those kind of men–I’ve mentioned elsewhere that I think most of them are creepsters looking for a self-esteem boost. TBH, I don’t know many women like the ones Witchsistah described in real life either–as I mentioned upthread most of the Black women I actually know aren’t worried about whether White men will want to date them or not.

    IMO, It’s hard to untangle all of this from Black female/Black male relationships (even though I’ve tried to stay away from talking about Black men, since they aren’t the topic). What I read online presents a distinct correlation between rejection of Black women by White men and Black men (with some women taking it to the extreme of denigrating one in favor of the other), and that gets into the subtopics of racism, stereotypes, and beauty standards but again, I don’t experience any of this “gotta get a White man, because there aren’t any Black men” talk in real life. If anything, I think my age (and circumstances) have dictated my experiences, but I’d hardly suggest they’re universal.

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  26. As a senior single black woman, I feel that all men over 55 have reverted to narrow minded, misogynous and prudish beings. Acting as if the last forty years had not changed the social scene, women’s role in society and playing sexual dynamics like they are in high school.

    This is a generalization, but read craigslist of men of that age.

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  27. Why does it always have to be about white men?

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  28. I’m in moderation, but I have no idea why. (I didn’t use any of the bad words, unless I accidentally misspelled something.) But I did get to be part of the examples on the commenting page–thanks for extending my 15 minutes of fame Abagond!:-)

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  29. @ Ank

    Yes, this topic, as fascinating as it is at times, needs to fucking die..

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  30. “Why does it always have to be about white men?”

    The sentiment on this website is kind of weird. On the one hand, white people and especially white men are seen as the primary cause of racism, inequality, and poverty in American society. On the other hand, there’s a weird, Latin American-esque vibe going on here in which marriage to white men is prized as an incredible economic and status boon.

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  31. Im in moderation. Please, I need out!

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  32. Uhm, can you give us one example of someone posting here who thinks that marriage to a white guy is an “incredible economic and status boon”, FG?

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  33. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 22:07:47 theobsidianfiles

    Jasmin, Natasha,
    Given that you two are strong exponents of “swirling”, how do you two account for the fact that White Men choose Asian Women as mates over Black Women at a rate of 4 to 1?

    Please explain?

    Thanks.

    O.

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  34. “Uhm, can you give us one example of someone posting here who thinks that marriage to a white guy is an “incredible economic and status boon”, FG?”

    That’s the drift I’m getting from many of these comments. Remember, I read between the lines. Mexican Americans tend to be overt about this, but hardly anyone of the African American ethnicity is going to be up front about it.

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  35. One reason I think that are the empassioned discussions about which groups of women are more effective at competing for white men in dating and marriage markets.

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  36. O,

    Given that you are a strong exponent of stalking women young enough to be your daughter how do you account for your douchebaggery?

    Thanks,

    Jasmin

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  37. LOL FG at reading between the lines. You needed some new glasses yesterday.

    Where’s the economic + status boon exactly? As I recall, only one person in a BW/WM pairing on this blog (Thad) has gone into detail about his and his wife’s professions, and they’re both professors outside of the US. If anything, I would say the prevailing belief (on this blog at least) seems to be that interracial BW/WM pairings are made up of educated people, and in the US at least, regular people are “equalized” by a college degree. I haven’t heard anyone expressing shock at two college-degreed people being together, even if one happens to be a some bigshot CEO and the other has a “regular” professional job. Am I missing something (general question)?

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  38. Heck, Natasha represents herself by a picture of her “boyfriend” (“hubby”?) and emphasizes his Aryan physical features/background.

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  39. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 22:20:28 theobsidianfiles

    Thanks, Abagond, for broaching this topic. I think you hit on many salient points.

    Question to our resident “swirlers”, Jasmin and Natasha:

    Given that, at present, only a third of all Black/White marriages in the USA are those of a Black Woman and a White Man, how are we to account for the fact that for much of our country’s recent history-and by that I mean prior to the Loving decision, which involved a BF/WM couple-Black Men, despite being under the threat of DEATH to do so, still sought out and married, White Women? Of course, White Women agreed, since they had to consent to the proposals of marriage, yes? We’ve all heard many despiriting stories-Jack Johnson, Sammy Davis Jr having one of his eyes knocked out of his head, Paul Robeson and Richard Wright being dogged out in part, because of who they chose to marry-yet, they were undeterred, and so were possibly millions of Black Men at the time, who chose White wives.

    Yet, some four decades on from the landmark Loving decision, BF/WM married couples still lag behind their BM/WM counterparts by a third, and WM/AF couples outnumber them more than 4 to 1. No one was lynching Black Women, or knocking their eyes out, or forcing them into exile in cold Russia, for daring to date and marry White Men, before or after Loving.

    So, they can’t blame their relative lack of “swirl” on racial hate and violence.

    What then, gives?

    Could it be possible that what Chuck, and by extension, what Abagond, has said, was true-that in the main, there are only certain types of White Men who select Black Women as mates? Jasmin seemed to corroborate Abagond’s theory in this regard; and having had a bit of back and forth with Jasmin’s guy Mr. Zek Jevets, I would definitely put him in the “nerd” catergory. Not a moral judgment, just noting what I see as factual observation.

    As for what Chuck said, about the perhaps mutual lack of attraction between Black Women and White Men, that certainly seems plausible to me, at least when it comes to longterm mating. Nor am I suggesting that this is a one or lopsided thing here at all; it may very well be mutual.

    Comments?

    O.

    Like


  40. Ana Paula would definitely laugh at the idea that I represent some sort of economic or social “boon” to her.

    Oh, and FG? I know it’s hard for Americans to understand this, but TRY to remember that “Latin America” is a region that’s about twice as big, population wise, as the U.S. and easily twice as diverse. There is no “Latin American” culture.

    Like


  41. Laroma@
    “I can tell you from first hand experience that I’ve encountered ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE MOSTLY from American WM who are 35+.”

    Laroma, it’s like you’re sitting in my head:-)

    I’ve only ever dated 1 white American guy and after that I stayed clear–“cowards” is a good adjective

    …give me European guys any day…to me, they are more confident and are not so caught up in what their friends and society says…

    Like


  42. Jasmin, ITA.

    Ummm, yeah. My SO has provided no economic improvement for me, not that I needed one. As I’ve said before, I don’t know how much he makes because I’ve never asked. We move in the same social circles, which is how we met in the first place, so I don’t know about the status thing.

    Like


  43. I’m not saying this applies to all of these sorts of relationships of course. I’m just talking about many of the cases I read about on Abagond’s site. And Latin America is diverse but I have heard this to be tendency in that part of the world.

    Like


  44. It’s probably common everywhere though because whites are usually at the top of the economic pecking order.

    Like


  45. FG,

    Should she have dyed his hair brown first?:-)

    You must have your computer magnification on high, because I can barely see the guy (and only know his hair color because Natasha mentioned it elsewhere–from looking at the picture I would’ve guessed light brown). But I’m still not sure what showing a picture of a White guy who *gasp* looks White has to do with social-climbing. With the exception of Thad, all of the people BW/WM relationships who comment here are Black females. So, by your convoluted logic, shouldn’t their White partners be latching on to them (in the absence of evidence to the contrary)?

    Thad,

    I’d laugh too. When you talk about your wife (which is pretty infrequently, AFAIK), you speak very highly of her abilities, which gives me the impression that you believe she’s smarter (or better at her job, or whatever) than you (not that there’s anything wrong with that). From what you’ve said, I would think most regular commenters would surmise that the “lucky one” in the relationship is you (or maybe both of you, but never just her).

    Like


  46. Natasha,

    And your man disparages Trekkies? Well, f&ck yo’ man then! All I want/need is a holodeck, replicator and a Soong-type android (preferably of the non-evil variety) and I’d be good to go.

    Signed,

    Mrs. Data Soong

    Like


  47. I’m not saying that all such pairings involve an economic disadvantaged black woman and a wealth white man, I’m just saying much of the theoretical interest in marriage to white men specifically seems to be rooted in status or economic concerns.

    Like


  48. FG,

    Can you give us some examples? Like I said, the only firsthand information I’ve read here–from people in these relationships themselves–is that the partners are on a level playing field. It’s pretty obvious this (already small) sample is skewed toward the higher end of the economic/educational scale. Maybe you are thinking of hearsay.

    Natasha,

    You know my first instinct was to laugh–most regular commenters know that my boyfriend and I are both students, so I’m waiting on my economic boon (…any day now…).😛

    Like


  49. Marriage in general doesn’t necessarily have much to do with these issues, but fixation on the possibility of marriage to members of one particular social grouping raises questions.

    Like


  50. “You must have your computer magnification on high, because I can barely see the guy”

    I think if you click on the web icon, it gives you a larger representation.

    Like


  51. “All I want/need is a holodeck, replicator and a Soong-type android (preferably of the non-evil variety) and I’d be good to go.”

    Data love you long time?

    Like


  52. Witchsistah,

    LOL–I have no idea what you just said. (What’s a Soong?):-)

    I think my boyfriend and I are equally nerdy (though I was more popular in high school than he was). We were both in band, he was a video gamer (I just recently heard the full story about how he almost joined the South Korean gaming circuit), I was on the Math Team and volunteered for nearly everything, and so on. I was more nerdy-overachiever while he was more nerdy-bando, but for the most part we’re opposite sides of the same coin.

    Like


  53. King,

    But that’s still an extra (optional) step. If you have to click to see clearly that’s hardly “flaunting Whiteness”.

    Like


  54. King, hush, dude!😛

    Like


  55. This post is spot on. One thing to note is that standard black woman and standard white male all put one thing before their hearts and that is “appearance”. Many white males would not mind a black woman and vice versa, but they can’t stand to overhear what ignorant friends may say so they shy away from it. Pretty sad to be honest.

    Click my name, we have many beautiful women to ogle. Unlike the ugly world we love all women inside The Hall.

    Like


  56. Jasmin,

    “But I’m still not sure what showing a picture of a White guy who *gasp* looks White has to do with social-climbing.”

    I don’t see this comment… I guess it was deleted?

    Methinks people read way too much into my avatars. My old avatar with the two-toned blue/white teddy bear was taken to be some “symbol” of black/white union, I’d heard. And I’d just thought it was a cool bear. LOL. Thank goodness I took down the one of me lest people start saying I’m flaunting myself.

    I have my boyfriend in my avatar because I like him (obviously) and I liked the background of the picture. He’s blond…and? I thought blond men weren’t thought of as well as “dark and handsome” types. To think, I was going to change my avatar for the month of November to a nice picture of the beautiful Kelly Rowland but I’ll keep it on longer just to make people mad.

    Witchsistah,

    “Natasha,

    And your man disparages Trekkies? Well, f&ck yo’ man then! All I want/need is a holodeck, replicator and a Soong-type android (preferably of the non-evil variety) and I’d be good to go.

    Signed,

    Mrs. Data Soong”

    ROFL.

    Yes, he does. And religious fanatics, and libertarians, and… Please tell him to stop and tell him he’s not “cool”. I’ll give you his e-mail address.

    Like


  57. @Jasmin

    I’d laugh too. When you talk about your wife (which is pretty infrequently, AFAIK), you speak very highly of her abilities, which gives me the impression that you believe she’s smarter (or better at her job, or whatever) than you (not that there’s anything wrong with that). From what you’ve said, I would think most regular commenters would surmise that the “lucky one” in the relationship is you (or maybe both of you, but never just her).

    Most definitely.

    In fact, I’m surprised that Ana puts up with as much shit as she does, to tell the truth. We say we increase each others’ alterity, but what that means in practice is that people here in Rio tend to see Ana as a prostitute.

    Like


  58. @FG
    Marriage in general doesn’t necessarily have much to do with these issues, but fixation on the possibility of marriage to members of one particular social grouping raises questions.

    Right. So who here is fixated? I haven’t heard ONE black female commentator say she prefers white guys to black guys.

    Again, methinks someone ain’t gettin’ any and wants to make a racial-political issue out of it.😀

    Like


  59. See, sometimes he’s your “boyfriend” but on other sites you’ve referred to him as your “hubby.” I’m thinking … Is this coming from the same place as the “brown paper bag test” story?

    Like


  60. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 22:54:08 theobsidianfiles

    Jasmin,
    “Soong”, in Star Trek parlance, refers to the characters Arik and Noonien Soong, the “ancestors” of the character and android Data, who was seen on the Star Trek: The Next Generation and subsequent Star Trek TNG films. Noonien Soong was the grandson of Arik Soong, and creator (or “father”) of Data; Arik Soong, who appeared on Star Trek: Enterprise, was a geneticist who had a hand in creating what were known as “Augments”-genetically altered human beings, who eventually turned on him. As a result, Soong, who was imprisoned for stealing a batch of embryos and bringing them to life out in space, raising them as his own “children”, finally gave up on eugenics, and instead turned his focus to cybernetics and artificial intelligence; he theorized that it would take several generations to complete the work and that it wouldn’t be in his lifetime. He was right; his grandson, Noonien Soong, picked up where Arik Soong left off, and the end result was Data, and his “siblings” Lore and B4.

    Of additional interest and note is the film Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan, which is itself a “sequel” of sorts, in that it picks up 15 years after Star Trek: The Original Series ended. Khan Noonien Singh (no relation to the Soongs), simply referred to in the show/film as “Khan”, was one of those “Augments” I described earlier, and actually played a key role in the Eugenics Wars, a veritable “world war three” on pre-warp drive era Earth in the earlier part of, I think, 21st century? Khan ran accross the Kirk era USS Enterprise, and tried to overpower the crew; Kirk had Khan and his people banished to a barren planet, Ceti Alpha Prime, I think it was called. The film, The Wrath of Khan, picks up the story from there, and is considered to this day the most popular Star Trek film to date.

    And yes, I’m a Trekker.😉

    O.

    Like


  61. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/black-women-white-men/#comment-69397

    Oh, here is FG’s comment.

    I don’t know what “Aryan” physical features you’re talking about. The word Aryan gives me the creeps, anyhow.

    But this reminds me of how my SO says (boyfriend, hubby, and SO, thanks) that it probably p*sses racist people off more that he is of Nordic descent and I should mention that as much as possible to people who haven’t met him. At first I was like “Okay, you’re crazy” But I see, clearly now…

    Like


  62. ::puts on Next Generation yellow uniform corset (http://tinyurl.com/nxt9ve)*, pins on Lt. pips, adjusts tricorder and phaser on hip, seats herself at her electronic input device and beginneth the lesson::

    A Soong-type android is one created by Dr. Noonian Soong (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Noonian_Soong). As of date, there are three such androids. B-4 was the first, but he has very limited processing capacity compared to the succeeding models (or his little brothers, however you want to view it). Lore had a exponentially expanded processing capacity and could feel emotions, but was deemed unstable developing megalomania and an intense hatred of humans. He is currently dismantled at the Daystom Institute and being studied by Cmdr. Maddox. Data is the third and last Soong-type android. He was created without emotions due to the colonists of Omicron Theta’s adverse reactions to Lore. However, via an emotion chip created by Dr. Soong, Data gains the ability to feel emotions. Data died saving Capt. Picard and the compliment of the Enterprise E by blowing up the Scimitar.

    Thus endeth the lesson.

    I prefer Data.

    *I actually don’t possess one of those corsets, but if I ever get a chance to buy one, I’m takin’ it!

    Like


  63. Now, now, FG. I guess you weren’t around when many of us asked if we could see Natasha’s SO. And since she never had him on her avatar before (as far as I can tell), I think it’s safe to assume “presenting his Aryan features to site visitors” is not Natasha’s priority.

    Jasmin (and Natasha, I guess):

    Due to new feature, it’s possible to get a better look at the pictures. So if Natasha (or anybody else) doesn’t feel comfortable about it, I advise her to change the image.

    PS- Abagond, I thought we already had black women/white men post… Not that I’m against this one, but I am confused: what is the basic difference between this and previous one(s)? The fact it’s written from black woman POV and not white man POV?

    Like


  64. “Right. So who here is fixated? I haven’t heard ONE black female commentator say she prefers white guys to black guys.”

    Not explicitly, but the sub-text is unmistakable. Sometimes I wonder how people aren’t seing the same things I’m seeing.

    Like


  65. “Now, now, FG. I guess you weren’t around when many of us asked if we could see Natasha’s SO. And since she never had him on her avatar before (as far as I can tell), I think it’s safe to assume “presenting his Aryan features to site visitors” is not Natasha’s priority.”

    But she described them many times with words before that.

    Like


  66. Mira,

    “Now, now, FG. I guess you weren’t around when many of us asked if we could see Natasha’s SO.”

    Indeed, that was part of it: since so many were wondering, and associating me with other people/pictures. To all that are wondering what I myself look like — you blinked and missed it, sorry! Too many internet stalkers to put up my own picture… I never knew I was so special (*dabs at tears caused by thoughts of specialness*) My boyfriend has pictures up online anyway, so he doesn’t mind.

    Like


  67. @King.

    LOL! Fuggitchoo!

    Well, yes he could, not needing sleep or food. And he knows over 400 techniques of pleasing a woman so…

    Like


  68. I think that picture was obtained by Googling “blonde student in Paris” or something to that effect. I don’t think it’s for real.

    Like


  69. @King, Jasmin, Natasha and Y,

    AND he’s “fully functional.” 😀

    Like


  70. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 23:11:04 theobsidianfiles

    Witchsistah,
    Am I right to surmise that you’re partial to the TNG era uniforms? If not, which do you prefer?

    O.

    Like


  71. Thad,

    but what that means in practice is that people here in Rio tend to see Ana as a prostitute.

    Wha… Because she’s with a white man? (Or because said man is a (white) Gringo?)

    Natasha,

    He’s blond…and? I thought blond men weren’t thought of as well as “dark and handsome” types.

    Unfortunately, this is true. Blonde women are seen as extremely beautiful, but not blond men.😦 Many women adore blue eyes, but only if they “go” with dark hair. I am not sure why all the blond guy hate.

    (And this is coming from somebody who, indeed, prefers dark haired men).

    But not that I haven’t heard some (arguably) positive stories about blond men (mostly stereotypes, though).

    Like


  72. Mira said:

    “PS- Abagond, I thought we already had black women/white men post… Not that I’m against this one, but I am confused: what is the basic difference between this and previous one(s)? The fact it’s written from black woman POV and not white man POV?”

    Even though it is by far the most commented on topic on this blog, I never wrote a general post on it. The only interracial pairing I ever did a general post on is black men and Asian women.

    Like


  73. @King, Jasmin, Natasha and Y,

    AND he’s “fully functional.”

    He love it!

    Like


  74. “I think that picture was obtained by Googling “blonde student in Paris” or something to that effect. I don’t think it’s for real.”

    LOL, FG.

    abagond, do you hear this? Mark this one for the record… I’ll never doubt you again when it comes to people like this.

    FG, you crack me up. Go ahead, Google that phrase. Just make sure you have safe search on.😉

    One thing I’ve noticed is that people online hate on black women/white men pairings, hard. Especially on the black women of these pairings. I’ve never heard anyone imply a relationship was fake except when it comes to black women/white men pairings (actually, I haven’t heard it at all, until some white guy was stalking me and FG decided to parrot him when he found out). It’s really opened my eyes to how highly people view black women — not much. I have no idea where this mentality comes from.

    Like


  75. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 23:17:41 theobsidianfiles

    Does this mean that you and Jasmin intend to ignore me, Natasha? I was looking to have a civil discussion on a matter of great concern to you both. It would be unfortunate if my highly legitimate questions went answered by you both, given how you two hold yourselves out as “swirlers”.

    Holla back…

    O.

    Like


  76. FG,

    But she described them many times with words before that.

    Apparently, she is attracted to her boyfriend and likes to talk about him. *shock!*

    It’s not his, or Natasha’s fault, if some people (who might not be blond/blue eyed/whatever) find this personally insulting.

    Look, FG, I am all for praising different kinds of male attractiveness, hotness and masculinity. I also strongly prefer dark haired, dark eyed men. But I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone’s love for her boyfriend as a proof of what (black) women in general might or might not like.

    Like


  77. I don’t question the existence of anyone else’ relationship on here. You just have a history of making implausible claims, inconsistent statements, etc.

    Like


  78. Obsidian,

    I’m partial to TNG period. I don’t know. I like the characters better. Those story lines were often lame as h*ll, but the way the characters were portrayed I liked. They weren’t overdrawn or so over-canonized that you’re straight-jacketed in how you can “play” with them especially via fanfic. And I like the more utopian, egalitarian atmosphere of TNG. THAT is the Federation I’d want to live in. DS9 is too depressing. TOS, well, I’m not going to be prancing around in go-go girl wear. And Voyager was, well, Voyager. And the only thing I liked about Enterprise were the dog and the eps with Arik Soong.

    Like


  79. @King,

    That cat’d have to go though. Spot would take a walk down to an airlock and then a tragic thing would happen.

    Like


  80. FG, such as…?

    I’d really like to know.

    Oh yeah, my blog coming soon! I’ll send you the link. You can talk the SO there — he promised to comment.

    Like


  81. And don’t forget about the baby picture! Who posts baby pictures of their “SOs” online?

    Like


  82. It’s called sharing with online friends, FG you should try it some time. Since you’re a so-called biracial and all (doubtful!)

    I’m still waiting on my “implausible, inconsistent” statements, but I have to go soon.

    Like


  83. Abagond, is it okay by your commenting rules for people to speculate on others’ personal lives? FG creeps me out with his stalker-ish behavior. He follows me everywhere.

    Like


  84. WOW!!!…WOW!!!…and WOW!!! so this is what America is made of…CONGRATULATIONS *shake head*

    Like


  85. I just read what’s posted here. You were the one who followed me to Robert Lindsay’s blog.

    Like


  86. @ Obsidian,

    Although I do like the uniforms they had on in Nemesis (even if I didn’t like the movie. Booooooo on killing Data! Boo, bytch, BOOOOO!!!). They actually look like they’d be real, functional uniforms with outer pieces you could take off if it got hot (I know the ships are perfectly climate controlled, but still). It’d be even better if they had pockets. Jonathan Frakes said that was a problem with the TNG uniforms. The guys hated the TNG unitard uniforms when they first came out. I don’t see how anyone could wear those. I said there should have been scenes with peeps in the background constantly pulling their drawz out their buttcracks.

    Oh, and you’ll have to hate me too. My husband is White.

    My name is Witchsistah. And I’m a “swirler.”

    Like


  87. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 23:33:04 theobsidianfiles

    Witchsistah,
    Hmm. Interesting comments!

    While I get where you’re coming from, we have to keep in mind that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Star Trek: Voyager were direct spinoffs from Star Trek: The Next Generation; as I’m sure you will recall, Picard was in administrative command of DS9; Sisko didn’t receive full command in his own right (and promoted from Commander to Captain) until, I think, the Dominion threat? As for ST:Y, Parris was in ST:TNG and was already in hot water; and as we both know, Captain Katherine Janeway was promoted to Admiral when she and her crew returned home from deep within the Delta quadrant, and was seen on several occasions giving Picard orders while out in the field.

    As for my own preferences, I’m kinda partial to ST:ENT’s jumpsuits-they remind me of what current day NASA astronauts use. Plus they’re more utilitarian than the other styles of unis, although if I have to choose an alternate, it would be the latter era DS9/TNG black jumpsuits with the grey shoulder pads and whatever color turtlneck underneath.

    I didn’t care much for the Enterprise D-the Galaxy class starships didn’t impress me, although they’re said to be among if not the most advanced in the fleet. I was more partial to Enterprise-E, which was a Sovereign class, and was “related” to the USS Defiant, another big fave of mine and was designed in part by Capt. Sisko to confront the Jem Ha’dar threat and the Dominion.

    Finally, my third most favorite ship is the Enterprise NX-01. Its a retro thing, and it’s one tough ship! It took a serious beating by the Xindi and then some.

    O.

    Like


  88. @Malaika,

    Hey now! Some of us are discussing IMPORTANT stuff…like Star Trek. So NYYYYAAAAAHHH!!!

    Like


  89. @Jasmin,

    I’m such a huge nerd that when John Hodgman of The Daily Show spoke at this event (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW7OPByRGDY) and asked four questions based on the sci fi books of Frank Herbert’s Dune I knew each answer instantly.

    Muad’dib, bytches.

    Like


  90. “It’s called sharing with online friends, FG you should try it some time. Since you’re a so-called biracial and all (doubtful!)”

    I’m not sure why that’s doubtful. Everything I’ve said on that issue has been consistent and plausible.

    Like


  91. Well, about the age thing; I’m pushing fifty (46) so I must be one of the oldest around here but I don’t think women by their race. Never did and I don’t know why.

    Back in the high school during the early stone age I went out with a panaminian girl who was not only foreigner but also from the other side of the moon as far as the population comes. In those days there were not too many foreigners around but hey, she was nice and pretty and that was all right with me. Did my friends made any comments on that? No. She was just my girlfriend for the boys. The girls on the other hand…

    Well, lets just say they saw her with very different eyes than the boys. The asked me why I was going out with mudnose (litteral translation from the finnish word they used). Not that I cared what they thoughed.

    Later when I went out with a vietnamese girl and a friend of mine was seeing a thai girl, the finnish women asked what we saw in those monkeys. My friend later married his girlfriend.

    And these girls/young women were educated and so on, not some ignorant white trash. Some of them had foreign boy friends, some of them, two or three actually had a fling with a black guy. So they knew what they were talking about.

    Once when we had some troubles with some gypsies they called us racists because of that. But I guess thats the way it was back then. Still seems to be: guys are racists no matter what and women are not, no matter what they say or think.

    Not being a trekkie or anything like that, I have no idea why race did not and does not mean anything to me. It just isn’t how I define people. Not that I am color blind but if you are ok, I don’t give a hoot what color you are nor I give a shit what anybody else thinks about it. Be purple or green or what ever. If I like you, I do.

    I know we don’t live in the ideal world, I’ve seen enough to know that, but from my own experience I can say that if you do not care what mythical “others” think, it doesn’t matter. This senegalese guy works out at the same gym and he greets me: hello my african brother! and I greet him: hello my finnish bro! Some other guys give us weird looks but so what? I think its funny, silly.

    Like


  92. I liked Dune, the whole set of books.😀 not that I am a nerd😀

    Like


  93. on Mon 1 Nov 2010 at 23:48:31 theobsidianfiles

    Witchsistah,
    “Hate you”? I beg your pardon? Why would I “hate” someone I don’t even know? Simply because you’re married to a White guy?

    You gotta be kiddin’ me, right?

    LOL.

    I think you’ve got your information about me all wrong. Next time, why not come direct to the source?

    Anyway, getting back to Star Trek…

    Actually, I think its the perfect topic for such a venus as this, because Star Trek is really a commentary about Race and racial/racist issues. Remember, it first came out at the height of the Civil Rights movement, 1966, and has been with us in one form or another eversince. I fully expect there to be both another film, the 12th in the series, as well as a new tv series at some point, perhaps picking up where Archer leaves off circa 2161. I for one would certainly watch it.

    As for DS9/TNG era uniforms, I believe that for the most part, they were jumpsuits, although Picard himself had a version that had separate pants and jacket (he often tugged it down when he rose from his captain’s chair, etc.).
    As for Data’s ultimate sacrifice, I think its a commentary on his quest to achieve some measure of humanity and what it means to be human. I thought it was a nice touch at toward the end of Nemesis for everyone to have a kind of impromtu wake for Data, complete with a toast in his honor and Troi weeping. Riker’s recounting of how he first met Data in the holodeck was nice, too. It was a good way for him to go out…like the soldier he was.

    Now, you’re right, DS9 was a much more depressing show than TNG, and that was for a very good reason: unlike the other shows, DS9 was a commentary on the Middle East and all that comes with it: the intrigues, the politics, who had control of the resources, in this case instead of oil it was the wormhole, the religious zealotry of the Bajorans, and the various players who all schemed to get the wormhole, including Starfleet. The show also dealt with recurring themes of religious-inspired terrorism, a heavy handed nod to Islamic terrorism in our time today. All in all I liked the show.

    O.

    Like


  94. FG,

    For millinea, marriage within any group was based on economic status; bride price, dowry, etc. It seems it meant more to the men than to the women.
    As for women marrying up look at white women for that statistic.

    Like


  95. Sam,

    I have to admit, for me, the last three books of the series dragged on a bit, especially the last two. They read like Frank had book deal obligations to fulfill.

    Like


  96. Obsidian,

    The fashion period in the 24th century centered around the jumpsuit. I refuse to believe that even with a fully egalitarian, self-actualized society no one cared at all about decent fashion and that EVERYONE actually LIKED wearing those things. I always said a decent designer could have cleaned up. That’s one reason I liked Lwaxanna Troi. Her clothes were impeccable.

    Like


  97. @ Withsistah

    LMAO

    @FG

    Are you ok? What’s wrong? Why is Natasha’s avatar such an issue for you? Assume she is faking(which I doubt she is) what is the end gain for you? What’s the “aha!”? I’m not understanding you right now…

    Like


  98. Obsidian,

    You don’t seem to look too kindly on BW who do “swirl” from your comments here and on your blog.

    Just sayin’.

    Like


  99. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 00:06:47 theobsidianfiles

    WS,
    Well, let’s be fair here-wer talking about serving on a starship, in Starfleet, which is a quasi-naval (read: military) organization. So, it would be a bit impractical fo officers and crew to be looking like Troi’s mom, a Betazed civilian-right?

    Even the Vulcan space service’s uniforms differed greatly from their more civilian robes and so forth. That’s just the way the military does things, and I think the designers got it right in giving TNG etc a more military look. Jumpsuits accomplish that, as do the darker hues.

    O.

    Like


  100. I wasn’t talking about the uniforms. I was talking of the civvies. Fashion in the 24th century seems to be all about the jumpsuit (which was NEVER cute ever) and the unitard, PERIOD. Those were some UGLY clothes on civvies in TNG. Civvies were attending Star Fleet receptions looking like they’d just gotten done mopping the floor. That was NOT cute!

    Like


  101. Also what’s implausible. Whites and blacks marrying or pairing up? C’mon now you ought to know better FG. Ebony + Ivory is how you came into being, ;-D

    And going back to what Hathor said, women marrying “up” to gain social and economic boons has been happening throughout human history. What difference does it make if the
    woman in question is a black one
    marrying a white man?

    Like


  102. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 00:10:22 theobsidianfiles

    WS,
    Then I kindly invite you to please re-read what I actually said on my blog on the matter; in no way was I addressing all Black Women who “swirl” but rather a particular subset of that cohort. I also made it clear that I am for freedom of association and the right of a Women to choose who her mate will be.

    So, your comments about my supposedly “hating” you, or for that matter those who I took issue with, were quite puzzling to me.

    I’m just sayin.😉

    O.

    Like


  103. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 00:15:23 theobsidianfiles

    WS,
    As I recall, the majority of civilian visitors on Enterprise D worse outfits that largely consisted of robes of some sort. Troi’s mom no doubt was one of the better coiffed and clothed, and I think that was done to emphasize her and by extension, De’anna’s beauty as well, being from a “beautiful people” planet, Betazed. The folks who worse jumpsuits/unitards tended to be like Starfleet-military, or quasi-military personnel.

    O.

    Like


  104. FG,

    We can doubt anything anybody says online. There’s no way you can make sure if what somebody says on the Internet is true (were you the person who doubted I was an
    archaeologist, btw? Or was that J? I forgot).

    Natasha,

    Oh yeah, my blog coming soon!

    … can’t wait! (I mean, if you give me the link… please? :D)

    Anyway, back on topic. Let me see… Black women/white men pairings are the ones I see the most online, because of the blogs I visit, I guess. Not sure what to say about the stereotypes, but nerdy guy one does make logical sense (even if it’s not true). Of course, there’s one problem with this theory, and that is the belief that nerdy guys are the ones who don’t care about other people’s opinions, while non-nerdy ones do. While I believe there’s some truth to it, it’s not universal.

    I also believe many white men honestly think black women are not into them. What is not so honest and innocent is that THEY have some less than nice prejudice about black women. So it’s not like they all watch black women from a distance, unable to make a move. A shy guy would make a move, no matter how awkward. A racist one would just continue to whine. (That being said, I don’t think positive signals from women are a bad thing… Guys in general need a little help, except for those who hit on every single woman they meet).

    Like


  105. sam says,
    Well, about the age thing; I’m pushing fifty (46) so I must be one of the oldest around here but I don’t think women by their race. Never did and I don’t know why.

    laromana says,
    I can tell you from first hand experience that I’ve encountered ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE MOSTLY from American WM who are 35+.
    I was genuinely surprised to discover that MOST American WM who are younger (20′s-early 30′s) tend to have less trouble viewing/treating BW like NORMAL, HUMAN women.

    sam,
    I think it’s great that you’re not one of those older American WM (not sure if you’re American) who is an ANTI-BW RACIST/ANTI-BW COWARD but, unfortunately WM like you are the exception to the rule.

    I qualified my comments by stating that my negative BW/WM IRR experiences have been with MOST AMERICAN WM 35+ and that I’ve noticed that AMERICAN WM who are in their 20’s-early 30’s TEND TO HAVE LESS TROUBLE VIEWING/TREATING BW LIKE NORNAL HUMAN WOMEN.

    I NEVER said that there are NO OLDER AMERICAN WM who aren’t ANTI-BW RACISTS/ANTI-BW COWARDS or that ALL YOUNGER AMERICAN WM are NOT ANTI-BW RACISTS/ANTI-BW COWARDS.

    Clearly, MORE American men of ALL races need to learn to treat BW as NORMAL HUMAN BEINGS and learn to respect the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW.

    Like


  106. I must admit I got lost in this Trekkie talk…

    Like


  107. …and another thing I’ve noticed and discovered just as Natasha W said is that in most of the forums about race relationship, looks like WM/BW relationship is the most hated of all. When asked to men what they think about “certain”women, it’s just amazing how biased they’re comment are. Let say for example when asked what they think about Asian women, it just praising, praising and praising and “NOTHING” bad is said about them as if they were the epitome of perfection…but when it comes to Black women…OH GOD!!! out of 100 comments made, about 60 of them will literally be venom words and proper verbal lynching… it’s as if black women were some kind of punching bags for “all men”.
    They will just perfectly describe to you how ugly black women are from hair to toe. Really, I mean, every races have it good and bad so why to most of the men BW have all the bad and NO good in them???… and in most of the comments I’ve read it looks like to the rest of the world black women is the embodiment of ugliness and bad behaviour …it’s just unbelievable how hateful human beings can be.
    By the way Most of those forums and people commenting were Americans

    I love to see IR relationships in every races because it’s beautiful and is eradicating ignorance from the world. Love should be based on someone personality by that I mean what make you fall in love with that person and not on his/her race.

    Like


  108. sam,
    I just reread your comments and see you’re Finnish so my comments regarding American WM who are ANTI-BW RACISTS/ANTI-BW COWARDS definitely don’t apply to you.

    Like


  109. @ Malaika

    I think they’re praising the stereotypes of the women,and not the women themselves.

    They love the Asian woman stereotype
    They hate the Black woman stereotype

    The actual flesh and bone women they don’t even know in substantial numbers.

    Like


  110. I was KIND of flowing with it until the last part-where you said the white guys who want to be serious and/or marry black women are nerdy and unattractive because they don’t care about what anyone thinks.
    This is a classic example of how black guys think of black women. They think if a white guy is seriously interested in black women, they must be undesirable to white women and/or bottom of the barrel.
    In other words, black women are so undesirable we have two choices: date the most undesirable of other races, or we can date black men, who tend to prefer other races over black women. Sorry, that part of the post really screwed the rest up. I dont know where you got your stats from, but those seem pretty off too. Wow.

    Like


  111. @FG
    Not explicitly, but the sub-text is unmistakable. Sometimes I wonder how people aren’t seing the same things I’m seeing.

    [Valiantly restraining myself from taking the very obvious cheap shot.]

    O rly?😀

    @Mira
    Wha… Because she’s with a white man? (Or because said man is a (white) Gringo?)

    Because she’s black and I’m white and a gringo.

    And as for all you trekkie scum…

    F*** Star Trek and Gene Rodenberry. C.J. f***in’ Cherryh, motherf***er!! Represent!!!
    😀

    Like


  112. @FG
    Let’s put on our logic caps people. Natasha has said she does not want to divulge her identity.

    So why don’t you show us yours, FG? Hell, I’ve shown everyone mine already.

    Like


  113. And as for all you trekkie scum…

    F*** Star Trek and Gene Rodenberry. C.J. f***in’ Cherryh, motherf***er!! Represent!!!

    *throws tricorder at Thad’s head*

    Like


  114. Troi’s mom no doubt was one of the better coiffed and clothed, and I think that was done to emphasize her and by extension, De’anna’s beauty as well, being from a “beautiful people” planet, Betazed.

    Well, I guess I’d have to shop on Betazed exclusively because they be wearin’ some UGLY ish everywhere else but Risa and Angel One where they try to wear as little as possible.

    Like


  115. Natasha W.:

    Nobody is stalking you. Get over yourself. You’ve now accused two men of stalking you online.

    Since I’m addressing you directly you’ll probably accuse me of stalking as well.

    Like


  116. @ Gata,

    In other words, black women are so undesirable we have two choices: date the most undesirable of other races, or we can date black men, who tend to prefer other races over black women.

    Basically some folks feel only scum would be with scum (BW). Nice to know exactly WHAT folks think of us. Or at least it’s handy to know.

    Like


  117. FG,

    We get it; you have a crush (or maybe an obsession–are you related to Obsidian?) on Natasha. Friend, she does not want you. Not even a little bit. You are setting off my secondhand embarrassment meter like crazy. I’m sure there’s someone, somewhere, out there for you. Happy hunting.

    Obsidian,

    Swap out FG for you and Natasha for me, and you have your answer. I’m not into creepy old men, sorry. Your time would be better spent pondering why you care so much about the dating life of someone young enough to be your daughter, who you don’t know. G*dspeed.

    General side note: I am video-chatting with the boyfriend, and he is cracking up over this thread. Abagond’s blog, always a source of entertainment.

    Like


  118. how can one claim to enjoy science fiction and not believe that C,J, Cherryh is the greatest writer, ever?

    Like


  119. The token black is “tolerated”, because he or she is the only one. There is no true competition or threat. Therefore racial animosity is at a minimum, but not diminished completely.

    Tolerance is not acceptance.

    Like


  120. White women have prettier feet.

    Like


  121. “White dudes not wanting to have cappucino babies?”
    What the heck? This guy Abagond doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Most men (including all races) have kids as the last thing on their mind when dating. Plus, white dudes don’t mind dating Asians or Latinas.

    Like


  122. “White women have prettier feet.”

    Fetishist!

    Like


  123. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 04:12:33 Menelik Charles

    Natasha W asked:

    Abagond, is it okay by your commenting rules for people to speculate on others’ personal lives? FG creeps me out with his stalker-ish behavior. He follows me everywhere.

    Menelik says:

    extraordinary! Only a week or so ago, a wh*te boy on here said he’d googled my name in an effort to establish my personal and professional credentials (see “Are Black Women Ugly” post late Oct) and all the while attempting to goad me into revealing more about myself than I wish to on-line.

    This went against all on-line etiquette because it explicitly attempted to invade my privacy.

    Did I cry foul? No. Just ignored the individual, and moved on. A flame-throwing, bullying, wh*te boy with whom one cannot sort stuff out as men did of old, is simply not worth responding to once he reaches a certain point.

    My advice? Just ignore whosoever has offended you. Sure, I accept such behaviour can be both distressing, and provocative… but you’re no damsel, are you? A “strong Black woman”, perhaps?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  124. *sigh*
    From what i’ve notice offline and most times on is that white american men leaves a lot to be desired…* issues! *

    Black men, please answer me this question, if we are sooo undesirable why do you care so much about who we F**k, date, marry, and whose pics we use as an icon? if we are so HARD to get along with, so loud and ghetto…why are you not glad to be rid of us? Why is this topic even here? damn hypocrisy is something ain’t it.

    Like


  125. “why are you not glad to be rid of us?”

    Because sometimes we don’t realize how much we’re loosing until we’ve lost it.

    Like


  126. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 04:32:56 Menelik Charles

    I think Calculator is an absolute nut job. But one thing s/he said which I agree with is that white females have much nicer feet than Black females in general.

    It’s the only thing they have over Black females, in my opinion. However, I don’t have a thing for feet so I’m afraid my partner, and Black women in general, are stuck with me lol

    Like


  127. Lik Charles:

    A flame-throwing, bullying, wh*te boy with whom one cannot sort stuff out as men did of old, is simply not worth responding to once he reaches a certain point.

    There are time when I’d really love to agree with you but I can’t make myself do it because of your gratuitous race-mongering. Does the flame-throwing bully have to be white in order to make him not worthy of response? Jw.

    Like


  128. Jasmin:

    Your time would be better spent pondering why you care so much about the dating life of someone young enough to be your daughter, who you don’t know.

    Extend that same question to abagond who dangled the topic out over our heads for us to chew on. His post is concerned with the dating lives of black women and white men; you frequently comment about your swirling relationship; Natasha W. constantly talks about her boyfriend. And everyone is supposed to ignore these facets of your being because you all of a sudden find the attention creepy?

    I’ll defend Obsidian on this one. He is engaging in discourse which you and Natasha don’t agree with therefore you try to make everyone believe that he’s a delusional stalker. In truth, he’s like everyone else on this blog and many other blogs out there; he’s stumbled across a sociological discussion that he finds interesting. It’s not for you to say where the line between “interest” and obsession is drawn. If Obsidian or anyone else charts other commenters’ comments and positions on topics, who is to say that he has gone too far? And while we’re at that, Natasha W. has gone to several different sites to dig up my past quotes. I’m not calling her creepy, am I? This is internet debate; that’s how it works.

    Like


  129. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 05:48:47 Menelik Charles

    uck said:

    Natasha W. has gone to several different sites to dig up my past quotes. I’m not calling her creepy, am I? This is internet debate; that’s how it works.

    Menelik says:

    this is a legitimate form of inquiry. Nothing whatsoever is wrong with investigating comments one has made elsewhere. It makes sense. Nothing creepy about it.

    What I actually find creepy, however, is someone insisting I’m ‘Thugtician’ when I am not!

    My name IS my name…although my 1st name is actually my middle name lol

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  130. Hey Chuck, what makes you think Menelick is Thugtician. Aside from being anti-matriarchy/feminism they aren’t alike. Writing style is too different.

    Like


  131. White feet can’t be beat!

    Like


  132. The white female foot is sacred and holy! Every man bows before it!

    Like


  133. MC said:

    What I actually find creepy, however, is someone insisting I’m ‘Thugtician’ when I am not!

    My name IS my name…although my 1st name is actually my middle name lol

    Well its not like Thugtician’s real name is something like “Thugtician Robinson” or “Thugtician Charles” etc.

    Like


  134. Admit it, most black guys have a foot fetish for white feet. They love to kneel and worship the female white foot. That’s why so many black guys date white chicks.

    Like


  135. “I think Calculator is an absolute nut job. But one thing s/he said which I agree with is that white females have much nicer feet than Black females in general.”

    lol…that’s one of the funniest things i ever heard…

    Like


  136. i actually think some wm have interesting looking toes…just some of them…they’re long…

    Like


  137. Y:

    Does Thugtician write somewhere (besides on comment boards like Abagond and Obsidian, I mean)?

    Maybe its a British thing but both have a precise parsimonious way of speaking/writing. They often speak/write rhetorically, and they end their sentences with some sort of snide cutesy parting shot (a quality I actually admire more than anything else). Their blackness and their Britishness and their focus on men’s issues narrows it down a little bit more. Their habit of putting much of the blame for black peoples’ “problems” on black women and diverting attention from the more thuggish elements of black masculinity (Thugtician even goes so far as to almost idolize black thugs, and you’ll never pin Lik down into admitting that black men have any “duty” to anything beyond themselves) is more evidence. And their condescension is icing on the cake.

    Like


  138. malaika said…
    “…and another thing I’ve noticed and discovered just as Natasha W said is that in most of the forums about race relationship, looks like WM/BW relationship is the most hated of all. When asked to men what they think about “certain”women, it’s just amazing how biased they’re comment are. Let say for example when asked what they think about Asian women, it just praising, praising and praising and “NOTHING” bad is said about them as if they were the epitome of perfection…but when it comes to Black women…OH GOD!!! out of 100 comments made, about 60 of them will literally be venom words and proper verbal lynching… it’s as if black women were some kind of punching bags for “all men”.
    They will just perfectly describe to you how ugly black women are from hair to toe. Really, I mean, every races have it good and bad so why to most of the men BW have all the bad and NO good in them???… and in most of the comments I’ve read it looks like to the rest of the world black women is the embodiment of ugliness and bad behaviour …it’s just unbelievable how hateful human beings can be.
    By the way Most of those forums and people commenting were Americans

    I love to see IR relationships in every races because it’s beautiful and is eradicating ignorance from the world. Love should be based on someone personality by that I mean what make you fall in love with that person and not on his/her race.”

    response:

    yes, yes, I think we’ve all witnessed it…it’s to be expected and actually I find it rather comical because most of the guys who comment have no real experience interacting w/ bw whatsoever…i recently saw a comment on a youtube video (and I wasn’t looking for negativity) rhat said there were NOT A SINGLE good looking african woman and only mixed bw looked good, i promptly sent the guy some pictures of various african women who I felt were beautiful just to counter his ignorance…

    truth be told, who cares what some people think of us though, the minute we stop caring , is the minute they’ll realize their words are worthless to us…we know we’re beautiful but moreso than that…
    WE’RE EVERY WOMAN!!!

    Like


  139. I once had a black guy say to me that he prefers Asians.

    Like


  140. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 08:01:21 Menelik Charles

    @ Chuck Wepner,

    the only “men’s issues” I’ve ever written about are those intricately tied up with ‘women’s issues’. These are matriarchy and masculinity; female beauty and the racial caste system. Also, nothing I have ever written has supported “thugs”. To me, they are women in drag!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    PS to younger readers, Chuck Wepner was a wh*te boy who took on Muhammed Ali, and got toyed with for 15 brutal rounds of boxing. Sylvester Stallone based his ‘Rocky’ series on this ‘gallant’ loser.

    Like


  141. “and by that I mean prior to the Loving decision, which involved a BF/WM couple-Black Men, despite being under the threat of DEATH to do so, still sought out and married, White Women? Of course, White Women agreed, since they had to consent to the proposals of marriage, yes? We’ve all heard many despiriting stories-Jack Johnson, Sammy Davis Jr having one of his eyes knocked out of his head, Paul Robeson and Richard Wright being dogged out in part, because of who they chose to marry-yet, they were undeterred, and so were possibly millions of Black Men at the time, who chose White wives.”

    response:
    you forgot eldridge cleaver…:)

    i have a question why do ww/bm have such a high divorce rate??

    here is another question…why should being in an interracical relationship validate your worth as a black person??

    Like


  142. white women and black women have different kind of feet?! what?! that makes no sense to me, lol. feet are feet. but i do like my boyfriends feet. he likes mine too and think they are small. :)
    but i’m very much a hands person.

    Like


  143. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 09:07:31 Menelik Charles

    Like


  144. To Calculator:

    White feet can’t be beat!

    Well, mine are ugly….

    Admit it, most black guys have a foot fetish for white feet. They love to kneel and worship the female white foot. That’s why so many black guys date white chicks.

    This is a joke isn’t it… ? Entertaining I admit, but a joke I presume. (or a delusion…)

    Like


  145. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 09:26:01 Menelik Charles

    Someone said:

    we’ve all heard many despiriting stories-Jack Johnson, Sammy Davis Jr having one of his eyes knocked out of his head, Paul Robeson and Richard Wright being dogged out in part, because of who they chose to marry-yet, they were undeterred, and so were possibly millions of Black Men at the time, who chose White wives.

    Peanut asked:

    why should being in an inter-racical relationship validate your worth as a black person?

    Menelik says:

    what you should have asked the individual is: “how many “millions of Black men at the time” were married to “white wives”? Then you would have avoided this little piece of hypocritical gem below.

    Peanut said:

    I recently saw a comment on a youtube video that said there was NOT A SINGLE good looking African woman and only mixed bw looked good. I promptly sent the guy some pictures of various African women (who I felt were beautiful) just to counter his ignorance…

    Menelik asks:

    why should the personal opinions of an anonymous white man on YouTube invalidate, or diminish, your perception of yourself as a Black woman? You can’t educate people into finding you attractive!

    Anyway, do you see where you may have been hypocritical above?

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  146. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 09:30:44 theobsidianfiles

    Peanut,
    You’ve asked a good question, one that fellow blogger and current participant of the this discussion, Chuck Ross of Gucci Little Piggy, has taken up:

    http://glpiggy.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/bm-wf-divorce-rates-4x-that-of-wm-bf/

    And…

    http://glpiggy.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/anger-over-something-new/

    In the next comment, I’ll post up links back to my blog where we continue the conversation along the lines you’ve asked about above.

    Nevertheless, even assuming everything Chuck is saying is true, it still doesnt address my question above; nor am I surprised in the least that the loudest voices in the room on behalf of “swirling” wrt Black Women, aren’t eager to address it. Methinks there’s a there, there, heh heh…

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  147. Feet? What? I never look womens feet! Trekkie fashion?? This thread makes me really feel pervert in my hetero straightness!! I better get some perversions of my own soon or I fall out completely!

    Well, ok. I admit: I like to look at women! Does that count?? Darn! Well, how about this: I love to hear women laugh! No?? I like to talk with women? Noh… Hmm… Let’s see. I must have some sort of perversion in me…

    Okay! I don’t mind if and when they sit on my face, without panties that is! Is that pervert enough?? Damn if it isn’t. I really gotta work on this perversion dimension thing…

    @witchsistah: yeah, I think so too, but it still is ok for me. Well, the last book was little bit boring.

    Like


  148. @ menelik: nice video! I read about the fight and what Wepner was thinking about it before and much later and for him it was a fight with the greatest of them all, not some black/white thing.

    Wepner was proud that he managed to do what he could but he was not fighting for white pride nor anything like that. He was just a tuff journey man who had his chance of a life time and in one interview he said that this fight made him immortal in the boxing world and that was good enough for him.

    Like


  149. Lik, you would have to have a video of a brain dead boxer serve as a proxy for your argumentation, wouldn’t you?

    Like


  150. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 09:47:15 theobsidianfiles

    Chuck,
    Nuff respect for the defense – and let the record show that we’ve locked horns many, many times, and neither of us has stooped to doing the kinds of things that both Jasmin and Natasha has done; as MC has rightly noted, we accept that as the cost of doing business when engaged in debate. Personally, I’m sick to my stomach with so many female commenters/bloggers/writers who revert to the damsel in distress when they run accross stuff and/or people they don’t like. No one forced Jasmin or Natasha to write ad nauseum about their private lives; no one held a gun to their heads and made them, under the threat of death, to put up blogs to advocate for Black Women to “swirl”. And no one forced either other them to come here to Abagond’s blog to participate in the current or any other discussion. They’ve done all this of their own volition, and when they’re legitimately challenged on the merits of positions they’ve taken, they either try to ignore it, then try to ridicule it and/or the messenger.

    Ad Hominem, anyone?

    http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/10/13/how-to-kill-ad-hominem-attacks/

    Now, Jasmin and Natasha can do this the easy way, or they can do this the hard way – I have posed legitimate questions to them both on the subject matters at hand, which have absolutely nothing in the least to do with anyone’s personal life beyond the scope of this discussion and that which was freely offered. If neither can’t handle it, they might consider taking themselves elsewhere where they don’t have to be bothered with such trifles. But to try to play the damsel in distress, is beyond sexist in my view.

    To say nothing of weak…

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  151. FG:

    Asking or wondering about someone’s private life in an online discussion is, at best, an ad hominem. At worst it is sick, creepy stalkerish behaviour. Neither Natasha nor anyone else has to tell us ANYTHING about his or her private life. The title of this post is not “Natasha W”. It is none of our business. And given all the SICK people out there who could be reading this, it is unwise for her to tell us too much.

    If you do not respect her privacy. if make her feel unsafe to be here, I will ban you.

    Like


  152. My son a shoe salesman once, said he saw very few pretty feet. This store had women of all races shop there. The feet you see magazines are feet specifically chosen. I doubt if the average man can see enough of women’s feet to even make the statement Calculator made. Outside of the beach, I wonder if a woman takes her shoes off, if a man cares about the feet.

    Like


  153. Abagond, fair go. I don’t think anyone should be outted here against their will.

    But if Menelik Charles runs around threatening people with his l33t boxing skills, claiming to be a published author and in general thumping his chest about how heroic and courageous he is, surely I can ask him to put his money where his mouth is?

    I mean, I post openly under my own name and CV while MC gets his rocks off by playing Internet Tough Guy, anonymously.

    Like


  154. Obsidian,

    You and others keep saying that Natasha and Jasmin mention their partners constantly. Jasmin has a blog that talks about her relationship. If I kept a blog, or were more regular with my LiveJournal updates, I’d talk about my husband a lot since he is a major part of my life. We share a home. If I post pics of a vacation I take, my husband will definitely be in some of them since I’d most likely be traveling with him. Anyone getting an attitude over the fact that I continue to bring up that White man I’m married to all the time in my own blog/journal needs to block/ignore/un-friend/scroll past my posts. Why would I? Because it’s my [hypothetical] blog. I’ll write about Ren Faires and cool garb. I’ll even write about horrid Trek fashion. I’ll write and post what I da8n well please on it.

    Just like you do in yours.

    I don’t see any problem with Jasmin writing about her boyfriend a little or a lot. It’s HER blog. She can write what she wants on it. She can gush immoderately if she wants. She can praise White Jesus for granting her the illustrious gift of the love and admiration of a White man. If that bothers someone so much, there’s no need for that person to visit her tiny corner of the web. The internet is a big place.

    There’s a lot of places on the net that I know about that I do not visit. I don’t see the need to elevate my blood pressure and endure stress over reading that mess. I don’t see the point in wasting energy in engaging in a discussion with those people. I’ve tilted at those windmills in the past in 3-D. It was about as effective then. Well, a little more so. Face-to-face interactions restrained folks a bit.

    As for these ladies constantly bringing up their menfolk here at Abagond’s, I really do not see that, though I don’t frequent here as regularly as some of you do. If they do bring up their interracial relationships, it usually is germane to the discussion. I don’t see them mentioning their partners’ races or their IRRs all willy-nilly. If the upset is that they mention them at all, well, if that person wants to be upset I can’t stop them. But it’s not some flippant, “Well, my White boyfriend thinks…” “Well, you know I’m with a WM so…” all the time to whatever comment no matter the subject. Sometimes the subject of the conversation changes, as it has here with some definite discussions about Star Trek which was not the subject of Abagond’s initial post.

    I got the impression that you didn’t think much of BW dating/marrying interracially because of what you said on your blog about BW who date/marry WM are settling. Um, if some feel that way, I feel sorry for their husbands. I’d never want to be with someone who sees me as a step down. That person WILL eventually show you exactly what they think of you. If those women really wanted a BM but “settled” for a White one, then they’d do best to divorce their husbands so they won’t make them miserable for not being Black.

    But many of us who are with WM do not see them as a Plan B because there was no Black Plan A. I’m one of those women. I wasn’t dating non-BM until I snagged me a decent Black one, using those men as a stop-gap until I got my Black Prince. If I was “waiting” for any man, it was one who was decent, loving, kind, smart who didn’t make fun of me being a nerd and smart too, decent-looking and decent enough in the sack or at least willing to take direction and who was interested in and prepared for a long-term, serious relationship/marriage. Time and circumstance didn’t work all that out for me until The Man showed up. I knew it was kismet when I found out we had the same favorite medieval siege engine. Basically dude was the first to act right, look right, be ready to commit and not have extenuating circumstances preventing us being together.

    I do agree with you on one point, that all of BW’s haranguing of BM has had absolutely ZERO effect on BM’s actions. If some chicks are swirling thinking they’ll “show them” well, they’re in for a bitter surprise. They don’t even care much. And many that LOOK like they do, are trying to keep BW all to themselves. Like caridad alluded to, they don’t want us but they don’t want anyone else to want us either and they don’t want us to go away. But they’re not going to change to try and keep us. So to me, even the BW that date interracially out of some sort of revenge or retaliation are at least moving in the right direction. They’re acting on their own behalf at least. They just have to divorce that from trying to manipulate BM.

    To elaborate on Chuck’s Walmart analogy, yeah the person may have left Walmart and changed stores out of anger, but eventually, they stop being angry at Walmart and simply enjoy their new store. But most of us who shop at the second store weren’t necessarily mad at Walmart in the first place. We just think the new store better suits our needs.

    Like


  155. What’s with all these foot fetishists…. WTF?!?

    Like


  156. Am I the only person here who thinks of “marble cake” when I here the term “swirling”?

    Google it.

    I dare you.

    Like


  157. Thad, etc:

    Just because someone tells you x, y and z about their private life online does not give you the right to know a, b and c. People say what they feel comfortable telling. They should not be bullied or shamed into saying more.

    Like


  158. When I hear “swirling” I think of the NutraSweet logo:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrasweet

    Like


  159. FG,

    Okay, then!
    🙄

    If you hadn’t noticed, I was on all of these blogs before you, or your “character”, showed up. Somehow, every blog I post on, you’re magically there. Or lurking in the shadows.

    “I’m not sure why that’s doubtful. Everything I’ve said on that issue has been consistent and plausible.”

    And yet it’s not.

    Jasmin, don’t you notice the succulent irony of a person without an avatar, without a blogging history, without anything, questioning the veracity of others’ claims? You would think someone would actually have some kind of proof that they are the person they say they are, if they want to engage invading others’ personal lives.

    As far as I am concerned, FG is just a wannabe white person. He has not provided any proof for being “biracial”, “mixed”, or anything else except wannabe. Since we’re all providing proof here, and all. Let’s see his.

    Like


  160. Chuck,

    “Nobody is stalking you. Get over yourself. You’ve now accused two men of stalking you online.”

    Awww, is Chuck’s feelings hurt?😦

    Sorry, Chuck. Let me get a bandage for your boo-boo.

    Yes, I have stalkers. When people follow me from blog to blog, and I know they are following me, because I’ve never seen them before there, that’s stalking. When people who I don’t know paste my comments on blogs I’ve never heard of, that’s stalking. Don’t tell me what stalking is. I’m sure you wouldn’t know anything about people caring about what you write, given the level of activity on your own blog.

    “Since I’m addressing you directly you’ll probably accuse me of stalking as well.”

    No, you don’t stalk. You do, however, change your “viewpoints” on a moment’s notice, whenever it suits you. As I illustrated upthread.

    Like


  161. @Calculator

    Nothing wrong with a foot-fetish, though I tend to prefer a diversified portfolio (as long as they look good or I’m in a relationship with the female in question)…

    @abagond
    Have you seen the movie the above pic is based on (Something New)? The premise is what turned me off, so I doubt I’ll be seeing it anytime soon. Long story short, where can I find a “Sanaa Lathon” looking for a chap such as the dude in the movie (near broke, yet gentlemanly/same skin tone)?

    LOL!

    Like


  162. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 12:46:51 theobsidianfiles

    *Obsidian puts hand up*

    Natasha, question:

    Above you say that when people post previous comments made by you that you don’t know, are you referring to me? Do you consider me a “stalker” of yours?

    Please explain? I need clarification. Thanks!

    O.

    Like


  163. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 12:48:57 theobsidianfiles

    CDF makes a very solid point wrt the film “Something New” and its root premise. To say it was contrived in extremis, would be an understatment.

    O.

    Like


  164. Witchsistah, thank you for this comment:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/black-women-white-men/#comment-69535

    “You and others keep saying that Natasha and Jasmin mention their partners constantly. Jasmin has a blog that talks about her relationship. If I kept a blog, or were more regular with my LiveJournal updates, I’d talk about my husband a lot since he is a major part of my life. We share a home. If I post pics of a vacation I take, my husband will definitely be in some of them since I’d most likely be traveling with him. Anyone getting an attitude over the fact that I continue to bring up that White man I’m married to all the time in my own blog/journal needs to block/ignore/un-friend/scroll past my posts…

    As for these ladies constantly bringing up their menfolk here at Abagond’s, I really do not see that, though I don’t frequent here as regularly as some of you do. If they do bring up their interracial relationships, it usually is germane to the discussion. I don’t see them mentioning their partners’ races or their IRRs all willy-nilly. If the upset is that they mention them at all, well, if that person wants to be upset I can’t stop them.”

    Exactly.

    This isn’t too hard to figure out: when you’re in a relationship with someone you tend to spend an inordinate amount of time with them. Thus you will also tend to bring them up more during conversation. The guys here bring up their wives too. Yet, I’ve never discussed my boyfriend in a general discussion without it being relevant to the post. This blog has many topics on black women/white men, and white people in general. So if I mention him “all the time” maybe it has something to do with the milieu. I talk a lot about fashion on my forum because, there are lots of posts about fashion. Shocking, I know.

    —-

    Mira,

    “Oh yeah, my blog coming soon!”

    “… can’t wait! (I mean, if you give me the link… please?)”

    Yes, I will email it to you. It will be private. That way I can kill two birds with one stone: I can rid myself of e-stalkers and I won’t have to burden people by talking about my relationship so much, since it seems to get their blood pressure up.

    Like


  165. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 13:16:48 theobsidianfiles

    Hello WitchSistah,
    Point for point:

    WS: Obsidian,

    You and others keep saying that Natasha and Jasmin mention their partners constantly.

    O: For good reason – because it’s true.

    WS: Jasmin has a blog that talks about her relationship.

    O: Yes, that’s true – a relationship that is by definition, a “swirl” one. Jasmin holds herself out as a “swirl” blogger, one that actively promotes such activity, which is her right. But that wasn’t the bone of my contention: my problem with both these ladies is that they want to be able to discuss their private lives on their terms, but doesn’t want anyone to legitimately question them about it, even with the wider social context – and if we do, we’re “weird”, “creepy”, “old” (itself quite a bigoted thing to say, are ya listening, Jasmin?), “stalkers” and the rest of it. Classic ad hominem, and weak ones at that. Again: I’ve made perfectly legitimate comments and asked perfectly legitimate questions in relation to this blog’s current topic of discussion, and to date no one, including YOU, has responded. Now to be sure, none of you have to; but the responses you all have given, are quite instructive, to say the least.

    WS: If I kept a blog, or were more regular with my LiveJournal updates, I’d talk about my husband a lot since he is a major part of my life. We share a home. If I post pics of a vacation I take, my husband will definitely be in some of them since I’d most likely be traveling with him. Anyone getting an attitude over the fact that I continue to bring up that White man I’m married to all the time in my own blog/journal needs to block/ignore/un-friend/scroll past my posts. Why would I? Because it’s my [hypothetical] blog. I’ll write about Ren Faires and cool garb. I’ll even write about horrid Trek fashion. I’ll write and post what I da8n well please on it.

    O: The difference in the example you’re speaking to above, and Jasmin, is that in the latter she’s actively promoting something she herself is doing; in your example, the fact that you’re married to a White Man is incidental to the blog itself. It wouldn’t be about “swirling”; it would be about your day to day life, of which a Man who just happens to be White is a part of it. Big difference.

    WS: Just like you do in yours.

    O: Indeed; but I don ‘t personally attack my interlocutors when they pose salient questions to me either…

    WS: I don’t see any problem with Jasmin writing about her boyfriend a little or a lot. It’s HER blog. She can write what she wants on it. She can gush immoderately if she wants. She can praise White Jesus for granting her the illustrious gift of the love and admiration of a White man. If that bothers someone so much, there’s no need for that person to visit her tiny corner of the web. The internet is a big place.

    O: True; but again, hers is more than merely a personal blog; by her own hand and byline, she’s a blogger that openly advocates for a particular lifestyle. And in that her blog is in the public domain, I have every right to examine what she or anyone else puts out there, and respond in a manner of my own choosing. If the comment count and site hits are any indication on my blog in this regard, so far, so good…😉

    WS: There’s a lot of places on the net that I know about that I do not visit. I don’t see the need to elevate my blood pressure and endure stress over reading that mess.

    O: My blood pressure has and continues to remain fairly low. Same deal with stress levels. In real life most people consider me to be quite the laidback guy.😉

    WS: I don’t see the point in wasting energy in engaging in a discussion with those people. I’ve tilted at those windmills in the past in 3-D. It was about as effective then. Well, a little more so. Face-to-face interactions restrained folks a bit.

    O: i’m sorry to hear that; my personal 3-D” interactions have been much more lively and persuasive!

    WS: As for these ladies constantly bringing up their menfolk here at Abagond’s, I really do not see that, though I don’t frequent here as regularly as some of you do. If they do bring up their interracial relationships, it usually is germane to the discussion. I don’t see them mentioning their partners’ races or their IRRs all willy-nilly. If the upset is that they mention them at all, well, if that person wants to be upset I can’t stop them. But it’s not some flippant, “Well, my White boyfriend thinks…” “Well, you know I’m with a WM so…” all the time to whatever comment no matter the subject. Sometimes the subject of the conversation changes, as it has here with some definite discussions about Star Trek which was not the subject of Abagond’s initial post.

    O: No one was questioning as to whether either of these ladies were bringing up their Men out of context or not, the bone of contention is that neither want to be questioned about it or its wider contexts; if they run accross something they find uncomfortable, they play the Damsel in Distress Ca(na)rd – something that I find to be deeply insulting to all Women everywhere. if you want to discuss “swirling” you have to be prepared to get hit with some hard questions about it. If you can’t hack it, shut up. That was easy.:)

    WS: I got the impression that you didn’t think much of BW dating/marrying interracially because of what you said on your blog about BW who date/marry WM are settling. Um, if some feel that way, I feel sorry for their husbands. I’d never want to be with someone who sees me as a step down. That person WILL eventually show you exactly what they think of you. If those women really wanted a BM but “settled” for a White one, then they’d do best to divorce their husbands so they won’t make them miserable for not being Black.

    O: Then as I said yesterday, you got the wrong impression. Please read what I actually said again on my blog on the matter, I could not have been more clear – I wasn’t talking about ALL Black Women “swirlers” only a subset of them that are nevertheless quite vociferous in their denunciation of ALL Black Men. That was what I was addressing.

    WS: But many of us who are with WM do not see them as a Plan B because there was no Black Plan A. I’m one of those women. I wasn’t dating non-BM until I snagged me a decent Black one, using those men as a stop-gap until I got my Black Prince. If I was “waiting” for any man, it was one who was decent, loving, kind, smart who didn’t make fun of me being a nerd and smart too, decent-looking and decent enough in the sack or at least willing to take direction and who was interested in and prepared for a long-term, serious relationship/marriage. Time and circumstance didn’t work all that out for me until The Man showed up. I knew it was kismet when I found out we had the same favorite medieval siege engine. Basically dude was the first to act right, look right, be ready to commit and not have extenuating circumstances preventing us being together.

    O: Well, you have nothing to be concerned about; I wasn’t talking about you. As the old Black saying goes, if it don’t apply, let it fly…

    Oh, and one more thing: I do hope that our recent exchange about Star Trek just goes to show, that quite a few Brothas are down with “nerdy” things – its just we can still be cool about it (Sisko would be my fave Star Trek captain).😉

    WS: I do agree with you on one point,

    O: That’s a comfort…😉

    WS: that all of BW’s haranguing of BM has had absolutely ZERO effect on BM’s actions. If some chicks are swirling thinking they’ll “show them” well, they’re in for a bitter surprise. They don’t even care much.

    O: THANK YOU for noting what should painfully obvious to anyone who has at least one decently working eye. We’ve all heard about Grammy award winning NeoSoul singer Jill Scott’s infamous Essence magazine article decrying Black Men opting/dating/marrying out (ie, White Women); please name me the Black Male equivalent who’s written the same wrt Black Women “swirling”? I’ll wait – and the very fact that we all are hardpressed to think up analogous examples puts to lie to the notion that somehow, Black Men in aggregate are obsessed about the relatively few Black Women who “swirl”. Trust me when I tell you, Brothas don’t even notice, and part of the reason is what I said back on my blog – I know that hurts, but the truth, often does.

    WS: And many that LOOK like they do, are trying to keep BW all to themselves. Like caridad alluded to, they don’t want us but they don’t want anyone else to want us either and they don’t want us to go away. But they’re not going to change to try and keep us. So to me, even the BW that date interracially out of some sort of revenge or retaliation are at least moving in the right direction. They’re acting on their own behalf at least. They just have to divorce that from trying to manipulate BM.

    O: Your comment above sounds terribly convoluted. On the one hand above you agree with me on an essential point, then you turnaround and laud the Sistas for doing the very thing you just lamented. Lots of tortured reasoning you have here, young one.

    At any rate, if the US Census is any indication, Black Men don’t have to work all that hard to prevent Black Women from dating or marrying out, like say, Asian Men do. *shrugs*

    WS: To elaborate on Chuck’s Walmart analogy, yeah the person may have left Walmart and changed stores out of anger, but eventually, they stop being angry at Walmart and simply enjoy their new store. But most of us who shop at the second store weren’t necessarily mad at Walmart in the first place. We just think the new store better suits our needs.

    O: Again, great – if it don’t apply, let it fly. Look Witchsistah, here’s the bottomline:

    If what I said last month simply had no meaning and didn’t apply to you in the least, why are you still talking about it a month later? And that’s my point – methinks there’s a there, there, that Sistas like yourself are loathe to admit, because again, if there was nothing to what I said, you wouldn’t even respond.

    As the old country folk used to say: if you toss a stone over the fence and you hear a dog yelp, you can be certain he – or in this case, she – did so because he/she was the only one that got hit.

    Think about it…

    And holla back

    O.

    Like


  166. CDF:

    I started watching “Something New” but despite its having Sanaa Lathan I fell asleep! It was late at night but a good movie will keep me up. I agree that the story did not seem believable.

    Like


  167. Basically people are going to be with whoever finds them attractive and who they find attractive. For a lot of different reasons (speaking primarily of the US here) most people are going to wind up marrying, reproducing with or living with people that look like them. I’m not saying that’s good or bad; it just is.

    People can’t be argued into feeling attraction for a certain type or NOT feeling attraction for a certain type. Most white men in the US do not appear to rank black women all that highly. But you could say the same thing about white women ranking black men pretty low or reverse the perspective-most black men do not appear to want to marry or date white women either. It just is. Those who feel differently should of course be free to pursue their own happiness.

    Like


  168. “Asking or wondering about someone’s private life in an online discussion is, at best, an ad hominem. At worst it is sick, creepy stalkerish behaviour. Neither Natasha nor anyone else has to tell us ANYTHING about his or her private life. The title of this post is not “Natasha W”. It is none of our business. And given all the SICK people out there who could be reading this, it is unwise for her to tell us too much.

    If you do not respect her privacy. if make her feel unsafe to be here, I will ban you.”

    Fair go. I just have to say that I wasn’t asking anything about her personal life. I was just arguing based on deductive reasoning applied to her posted statements that some of what she’s saying is untrue. I won’t analyze people’s statements about their personal lives too closely in the future though.

    Like


  169. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 13:43:59 theobsidianfiles

    Now, going back to what Abagond noted above in his post….

    I’d just like to point out that I think his points about more nerdier White Men perhaps being more likely to get with Black Women, is spot on.

    Why do you say that, Obsidian?

    Well, on some very basic anecdotal evidence, right here on this blog:

    Jasmin freely noted that her boyfriend, was and is, something of a nerd.

    Witchsistah, in her exchange with me above, noted that SHE, is a nerd, and didn’t appreciate the probable fact that Brothas might have clowned her for this.

    Like attracts like, does it not? I don’t think it is at all implausible for Nerdy White Guys to get with their Black Female counterparts – in fact, it makes a heck of a lot of sense.

    Hmm…

    O.

    Like


  170. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 13:51:12 Patricia Kayden

    Abagond,

    Have you done a survey where you can verify your claims in this post? Just seems like you are throwing out thoughts, which you are entitled to do on your own blog (smile!).

    Go to the Black women empowerment blogs and see the pictures of Black women and Black men. You’ll see all types, not just nerdy White men.

    Like


  171. “Jasmin, Natasha,
    Given that you two are strong exponents of “swirling”, how do you two account for the fact that White Men choose Asian Women as mates over Black Women at a rate of 4 to 1?
    Please explain?”

    I’m really scratching my head at this. What exactly are you trying to say? That white men are intrinsically more attracted to the physical features of asian women than those of black women? I don’t think this is something which can actually be proven; too many factors come into play with human attraction.

    Also, why do you address the question to two black women who are currently in IRs, instead of the wider pool of commenters on this blog? Why do you single them out as “strong exponents of swirling”? My impression of them is that they are swirlers, but hardly “strong exponents” of it. Natasha doesn’t even have a blog (!), while Jasmin owns a personal blog that’s not exactly dedicated to swirling. I’ve seen some swirling blogs filled with really racist propaganda, but this is not it.

    Like


  172. theobsidianfiles,

    From my point of view, men are not that unique and women tend to be attracted to that same guy, regardless of race.

    Questioning motives will never give you a correct answer, even from those promoting swirling, because the skin color isn’t the issue, it may be a quality that is perceived to come with color, but really it is not.

    Sometimes its morphology, height, body build, slim, stocky, tall, lean muscle, Mr. Universe muscle; personality, smooth talking, nerdy, out going, introverted, bad boy, nice guy; sexiness, body language, romantic inclination, how he walks; etc.

    Over time that “man” might change, depending where she is in life or has had issues that have now been resolved, but I would suggest that if a woman ends with a different race, only because of race, then she has deep issues which you would not be able to resolve or understand with any internet interrogation.

    Like


  173. Patricia:

    Some of it is based on studies, some on the huge number of comments this subject has received on this blog, some on guest posts by black women on this blog and some from my own observations. It is not a summary of the sociological literature but what I currently believe on the matter.

    Like


  174. aeigfc,

    All of those questions are meant to “trap”. I know a BS artist when I see one. We all know how the conversation would go if either of us would answer those questions, because they aren’t actually curious to know at all; those questions/comments are meant to “scare” black women into “knowing their place”. How dare we talk about our relationships with a partner of a different hue? Don’t you know they don’t “want” black women? Please, my daily life tells me differently…

    Black women: recognize these games and traps that people put out — it will save you much time and energy.

    I don’t even read these comments, but since you quoted it: I’ll say I’m not an advocate for interracial relationships specifically. I’m an advocate for all loving, healthy relationships as I wrote in my first comment here, which some commenter seems to have forgotten. Talking about my relationship is not “promoting” interracial relationship, if I were with a black man, like I was a few years ago, I’d talk about that instead. Except no one would care, clearly.

    “Natasha doesn’t even have a blog (!)”

    You would think I had one, right, given how popular I am? But fret not I’m currently setting one up. I could make some money or fame from this, seeing as so many care so much about what I write and my opinions.

    Like


  175. From reading this thread, and many other threads on varying sites discussing the phenomenon of the ‘undesireable and unattractive Black American woman’, it appears that this is an agreed upon social norm. I’ve read, analyzed, discussed, and kevetched about this subject for a number of years. I think it is safe to say, that, the black American woman ranks the lowest on the perceived value of ‘desireability’ in the human female family. The question is, why? As beauty and attractiveness are highly subjective to cultural differences, how/why does the perception of the black American woman ‘fall short’ over and beyond all other women? There has to be a social ly constructed ‘necessity’ for this. For a while, there were these ‘odd’ mediated expressioins of disdain/disgust directed towards bw, ie. John Mayer, Imus, various rap ‘artists’ and so on. One of my associates, tells of how some random bm walked up to her and insulted her about her weight (she’s a bit zoftic, but not obese) and began to berate her and ‘all other’ bw who are not as slim as he thought they should be. wth! There are numerous websites, blogs and Youtube pundits, shouting to any and all about the short-comings of black American women. wow!

    This belief and acceptance of black American women, as not being ‘worthy’ of male appreciation is a phenomenon, that no other ethnic/racial group of women hashad or are, having to deal with. I say the social perception is a phenomenon, because there are so many bw who run the gamut from iincredibly beautiful/attractive to ‘normal’ in attractiveness. There are millions of bw, who posessess, ‘pleasing’ personalities, attitudes, hair(lol!), figures, and so on, for the ‘ugly’ and repulsive perception to be so widespread and accepted. I feel that, for this social perception to be so pervasive, there must be a social, psychological connection to this, because this wholesale perception of black American women as ‘less than’ other women is bizarre and psycho! And, most, non black Americans and many black men, are quite comfortable and accepting of this. What does this mean?

    Like


  176. Well,

    Natasha and I must be virtual twins since she said pretty much everything I would say. I’m wearing a green shirt this morning, don’t you know it I’m promoting extended wear of the color green?:-)

    I’m actually sort of surprised that people are willing to demonstrate so clearly that they care sso much about people they don’t know. I would expect more of the “you ain’t all that anyway” tripe; it’s just as transparent, but a smidgen less pathetic.

    Black women: recognize these games and traps that people put out — it will save you much time and energy.

    Agreed, though I think most of the BW who comment here tend to be smart cookies.:-) And I already told you, I like your avatar. I might copy you, because I have this picture of my boyfriend that’s my new favorite–he thinks he looks funny, but I like it–and I have no reason to put it on my blog since it’s just him by himself. I can become a brown-haired Jewish male just in time for Hanukkah (Dec 1-9, mark your calendars!).:-)

    Abagond,

    I’m surprise your off-topic button isn’t flaring more. By the logic of some, I can bring up the disproportionate rates of Black men in prison, since some commenting here claim to be Black men. Or better, maybe I should ask some people here about their prison records; they’re Black men who happened to comment, so they must want to share, right?

    I got the term swirl from Bossip, and I thought it was hilarious. Bossip swirl generally features Kim K. with whatever guy she’s dating at the moment, because they hate her, almost as much as they hate Beyonce. I get the marble cake connection (I love marble cake) but Nutrisweet?

    (OK, I googled it. I don’t use artificial sweeteners, and I don’t see lots of commercials for it, so I had no clue about the logo.)

    Like


  177. The overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women.

    The overwhelming majority of black men who reproduce, reproduce with black women.

    Black men generally adhere to a standard of beauty that fits black women better than it does white women.

    Blacks in general are less likely to marry out than other groups AFAIK.

    So unless we want to believe that all of these black men are just settling and REALLY want white women, I don’t think that we can say that black men in general think black women are less than. It’s not borne out by their actions. Obviously there are many individuals who might feel this way but entire populations? No.

    I think in general there is a “white beauty” standard in the larger society because the larger society is mostly white.

    Like


  178. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 14:51:02 Menelik Charles

    @Shady_Grady,

    well said, my man! The bottom line is the bottom line. Shame more self-loathing people on here don’t see that.

    Like


  179. @oyan: yeah, I was wondering that too: what is with this “fact” that black american women are some how mystically unattractive or undesirible? I met loads of black women over there back in the time when I lived in US who were good looking, smart and funny. And they came in all shapes and sizes.

    I also wonder where from this image of dificult black woman comes from? I met more attractive black women than whites purely based on their good nature. Black women were much more easy going and funny and much more postive than most of the white women I met there. White women had all kinds of issues with themselves and men and world and whatever on and on and on, where as black women were more down to earth and relaxed. I guess it was because they knew what the real troubles are and did not whine about nonsense all the time.

    It is truly interesting that BW/WM relationship is something so touchy. I wonder why. Black athletes and actors are dating white women at will and nobody is ripping their hair off for that anymore. But somehow a relationship between a black woman and a white man is suspicious. “She is with him because it lifts her up on a social scale”. Really?? “Shes in it for the money”. Really? “He can’t find a white woman”. Really??? “She can’t find a black man”. Really?

    Weird stuff.

    Like


  180. I feel that, for this social perception to be so pervasive, there must be a social, psychological connection to this, because this wholesale perception of black American women as ‘less than’ other women is bizarre and psycho! And, most, non black Americans and many black men, are quite comfortable and accepting of this. What does this mean?

    Oyon,

    I completely agree with your assessment. It is pyscho. To ascertain what it means, we need to look at who the likely beneficiaries are. This would be a starting point.

    Like


  181. @Abagond
    Just because someone tells you x, y and z about their private life online does not give you the right to know a, b and c. People say what they feel comfortable telling. They should not be bullied or shamed into saying more.

    “Bullied”?

    Let me get this straight, Abagond: MC says he can beat me to a pulp in real life and tells me that I thus better be careful.

    I respond by saying “Look, if you’re so big, tough and courageous then, why don’t you do the reasonable thing and ditch your anonymity?”

    And I’M bullying????!

    This guy routinely claims to have deep psychological insite into Jasmin and other female posters’ personalities, but I’m the only one who gets called to order for “making presumptions that are on the level of ad hominem arguments”?

    C’mon, Abagond. Sure, people shouldn’t be pushed to reveal themselves if they don’t feel like doing so. But people also shouldn’t be physically threatening other persons over posts. Not a peep from you regarding that.

    If MC thinks I should shut up because he can beat me in real life, then why doesn’t he put his money where his mouth is? And why am I “bullying” him to say that when it’s apparently perfectly OK for him to threaten me?

    Like


  182. Oh, and by the way, I think it’s incredibly cute that Menelik “Mel” Charles claims that he IS his handle, given that he also claims to be an Arsenal fan (in spite of reputedly being “turfed out” of the club for being black in the 1980s).

    Mel Charles was a Welsh football player signed to Arsenal in the early 1960s.

    I guess MC has his own white male fetich to deal with, huh?😀

    Like


  183. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 15:45:29 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Jasmin,
    Replies below:

    J: Natasha and I must be virtual twins since she said pretty much everything I would say. I’m wearing a green shirt this morning, don’t you know it I’m promoting extended wear of the color green?

    O: ??? *shrugs*

    J: I’m actually sort of surprised that people are willing to demonstrate so clearly that they care sso much about people they don’t know. I would expect more of the “you ain’t all that anyway” tripe; it’s just as transparent, but a smidgen less pathetic.

    O: And, who exactly, is doing this, Jasmin? Names, please?

    J: Black women: recognize these games and traps that people put out — it will save you much time and energy.

    O: If anything, I would say Black Women “game” and “trap” themselves…

    J: Agreed, though I think most of the BW who comment here tend to be smart cookies. And I already told you, I like your avatar. I might copy you, because I have this picture of my boyfriend that’s my new favorite–he thinks he looks funny, but I like it–and I have no reason to put it on my blog since it’s just him by himself. I can become a brown-haired Jewish male just in time for Hanukkah (Dec 1-9, mark your calendars!).

    O: For my part, I never denied that anyone here wasn’t smart, I was merely observing what Abagond said wrt nerdier White guys probably being more likely to get with Black Women, and put that together with what you said about your boyfriend and what Witchsistah said about herself and how she didn’t like being clowned for being a nerd by Black guys. It all makes sense to me. After all, like attracts like, right?

    J: Abagond,

    I’m surprise(d) your off-topic button isn’t flaring more. By the logic of some, I can bring up the disproportionate rates of Black men in prison, since some commenting here claim to be Black men. Or better, maybe I should ask some people here about their prison records; they’re Black men who happened to comment, so they must want to share, right?

    O: Sure, IF the conversation was about Black Men and the criminal justice system, and IF there were already in attendance several voices in the round who were known for discussing, from a personal place, their interactions with said criminal justice system as Black Men, then YES, what you are suggesting would be perfectly legitimate. As it currently stands though, it’s totally out of bounds. My comments and questions directed at both you and Natasha, however, are right on target, again, per the parameters of the current discussion and per both of your previous and current comments related thereto.:)

    J: I got the term swirl from Bossip, and I thought it was hilarious. Bossip swirl generally features Kim K. with whatever guy she’s dating at the moment, because they hate her, almost as much as they hate Beyonce. I get the marble cake connection (I love marble cake) but Nutrisweet?

    Yea, I have to admit Abagond’s comment threw me for a loop, too. ???

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  184. “By the logic of some, I can bring up the disproportionate rates of Black men in prison”

    Co sign!

    If someone came here and said, “Abagond and XYZ, since you two are such strong proponents of racial equality, how do you explain that Black men are 4 times more likely to be in prison than Asian men?”, hinting snidely that Black men are intrinsically brutes, practically all of the commenters here, male or female, would dismiss it as lacking in intellectual rigour/honesty.

    Yet, obsidian finds it alright to apply the same logic and insinuate that black women are intrinsically unattractive, even though he is a black man himself who bears the brunt of such lazy thinking

    Like


  185. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 15:52:58 theobsidianfiles

    Hi, Aegific (did I spell that right?),

    Replies below:

    A: I’m really scratching my head at this. What exactly are you trying to say? That white men are intrinsically more attracted to the physical features of asian women than those of black women? I don’t think this is something which can actually be proven; too many factors come into play with human attraction.

    O: Perhaps, but the US Census figures on the matter are, for whatever reason or underlying motivation, quite clear – White Men marry/cohabit with Asian Women in far greater numbers than they do with Black Women. FACT. Now again, we can go into WHY that is, although in my experience as a Man, things just don’t tend to be that complex and deep for the human male; things laregly start out at the physical level. I would surmise that YES, in the main, White Men vibe more to the Asian female aesthetic, than the Black female one, all things being equal. Again, the US Census figures on the matter seem to tally with this.

    A: Also, why do you address the question to two black women who are currently in IRs, instead of the wider pool of commenters on this blog? Why do you single them out as “strong exponents of swirling”? My impression of them is that they are swirlers, but hardly “strong exponents” of it. Natasha doesn’t even have a blog (!), while Jasmin owns a personal blog that’s not exactly dedicated to swirling. I’ve seen some swirling blogs filled with really racist propaganda, but this is not it.

    O: Good question. I do because they seem to “stand out” more in this venue as “swirlers”; Natasha has an upcoming blog which I take it she will be discussing such matters quite a bit, though I am not certain if that is to be the singular or even main focus.

    As for Jasmin, she’s said in her own words on her blog that she’s into promoting the swirling culture, such as it is, which seems to be focused on Black Women dealing with White Men. Which I have no beef with. My only concern is how they both weasel out of actual questions posed to them in the light of their constant “swirl” commentary, be it here or elsewhere.

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  186. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 16:03:21 theobsidianfiles

    Hi aeigfc

    Replies below:

    “By the logic of some, I can bring up the disproportionate rates of Black men in prison”

    A: Co sign!

    O: Oh, dear…

    A: If someone came here and said, “Abagond and XYZ, since you two are such strong proponents of racial equality, how do you explain that Black men are 4 times more likely to be in prison than Asian men?”, hinting snidely that Black men are intrinsically brutes, practically all of the commenters here, male or female, would dismiss it as lacking in intellectual rigour/honesty.

    O: Not quite; it all depends on the context. Abagond and “XYZ” being “strong proponents of racial equality” have nothing at all to do with the criminal justice system. So, if indeed someone posed such a question, it would indeed be out of bounds.

    On the contrary, if indeed Abagond and XYZ were entertaining a discussion on say, Black crime and the role that racial discrimination played in it, and someone came along and posed the question you mentioned above, then I would say they would be perfectly within their right to do so. I would have no problem in the least with such a question because it was not only germane to the topic under examination, but it would directly question the assumptions of the presenters of said topic.

    See the difference?

    You are trying to suggest that I and perhaps others, are essentially out of line for posing such pointed questions to Jasmin and Natasha, when nothing could be further from the truth. For my part, and I speak for no one but myself, my comments and questions were indeed highly legitimate. That Natasha and Jasmin refuse to take them up, says a heck of a lot more about them, while at the same time attempting to denigrate the messenger, than it ever could, about me. See Chuck’s comments above on this point, as well as my previous link back to my blog on How to Kill Ad Hominem Attacks.

    A: Yet, obsidian finds it alright to apply the same logic and insinuate that black women are intrinsically unattractive, even though he is a black man himself who bears the brunt of such lazy thinking…

    O: My own race is irrelevant to the matters at hand; merely pointing out what Abagond noted above about the current rates of IR marriage between Asian Women and White Men, to Black Women and White Men, are indeed highly legitimate, especially within the context of the claims made by some, that BF/WM marital couples are skyrocketing. True, they are increasing, but not by much, and certainly nowhere near what they are for AF/WM marrieds. This, despite the fact that Black Women have been in the country longer than most Asian Women, and, that there are way more of the former than the latter, again as Abagond has noted above. That Natasha, Jasmin and now you, seeks to sidestep these inconvenient facts, again says more about all of you, then it supposedly says anything about me.

    Oh, and btw, I’ve written quite a bit about Black Crime back on my blog. Check it out…

    O.

    Like


  187. @ Chuck

    Mmm… I think you are reading too much to it. There was a British commenter that went by “J” that had a writing style similar to what you described. Maybe its a British thing? I dunno…

    I listened to Thugtician’s videos when he was on youtube and he did idolize(for lack of a better term) thugs. I don’t get “thug worship” when I read Menelik’s comments…

    Like


  188. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 16:11:08 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Natasha,
    Replies below:

    N: All of those questions are meant to “trap”. I know a BS artist when I see one. We all know how the conversation would go if either of us would answer those questions, because they aren’t actually curious to know at all; those questions/comments are meant to “scare” black women into “knowing their place”. How dare we talk about our relationships with a partner of a different hue? Don’t you know they don’t “want” black women? Please, my daily life tells me differently…

    O: ??? I think the reason why you don’t want to answer the questions is because it goes against your comfortable talking points script, which is why you haven’t even addressed the points Abagond made above in his post and which I am simply repeating. Surprise, surprise!

    N: Black women: recognize these games and traps that people put out — it will save you much time and energy.

    O: As I said above, Black Women don’t need any help “gaming” and “trapping”, they’re quite adept at doing that to themselves, thank you very much.:)

    N: I don’t even read these comments,

    O: so, how can you address the matter intelligently, Natasha? Aren’t you the one who is the bastion of logic and reason?😉

    N: but since you quoted it: I’ll say I’m not an advocate for interracial relationships specifically. I’m an advocate for all loving, healthy relationships as I wrote in my first comment here, which some commenter seems to have forgotten. Talking about my relationship is not “promoting” interracial relationship, if I were with a black man, like I was a few years ago, I’d talk about that instead. Except no one would care, clearly.

    O: That all depends on the context; if we were discussing Black relationships, then depending on what you said, I may have some pointed questions for you in that regard. as it is however, you are discussing your IR relationship (it remains to be seen if and when the BF puts a ring on it; time will tell…). So…

    “Natasha doesn’t even have a blog (!)”

    N: You would think I had one, right, given how popular I am? But fret not I’m currently setting one up. I could make some money or fame from this, seeing as so many care so much about what I write and my opinions.

    O: My mama told me to never put off until tomorrow that which you can do today…😉

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  189. Obsidian:

    “Perhaps, but the US Census figures on the matter are, for whatever reason or underlying motivation, quite clear – White Men marry/cohabit with Asian Women in far greater numbers than they do with Black Women. FACT. Now again, we can go into WHY that is, although in my experience as a Man, things just don’t tend to be that complex and deep for the human male; things laregly start out at the physical level. I would surmise that YES, in the main, White Men vibe more to the Asian female aesthetic, than the Black female one, all things being equal. Again, the US Census figures on the matter seem to tally with this.”

    Perhaps, but the US Census figures on the matter are, for whatever reason or underlying motivation, quite clear – Black men land up in prison in far greater percentages than Asian men do. FACT. Now again, we can go into WHY that is, although in my experience as a human, things just don’t tend to be that complex and deep for the human considering crime; things largely start out at the impulsive level. I would surmise that YES, in the main, Black men indulge in senseless acts of violence and aggression far more than Asian men do, all things being equal. Again, the US Census figures on the matter seem to tally with this.

    “My only concern is how they both weasel out of actual questions posed to them”

    The thing is, you asked a question about why BW/WM pairings are not as common as AW/WM pairings, when in truth Abagond has already expounded on this in the original post more or less, and actually elsewhere in this blog. Yet, you stick your fingers in your ears, and at the same time demand that two BW commenters (and no one else) answer you, just so you can grab your popcorn and watch them squirm (when in fact they just can’t be bothered with this topic that has been beaten to death), you do come across as creepy and having issues with black women in IRs.

    *I don’t buy into the myth of black (male) aggression.

    Like


  190. As for “Something new”: the movie IS problematic in a way it’s unrealistic. Even I can see that.

    However, main male character (forgot his name, sorry) is not some kind of a poor, uneducated white trash: he is educated and has a decent job. Sanaa’s character does earn more money than him, but it doesn’t make him a golddigger or something. All in all, he is not a white trash but an educated man who has a job.

    What he doesn’t have is family. The lack of family is very telling here and it’s evident why they opted to remove them from the picture: the movie focuses on Sanaa’s POV way too much and almost none on him. It’s not bad per se, but all the stuggles and questioning whether interracial relationship is a good idea come from Sanaa. He doesn’t seem to be bothered by this AT ALL (“women are women”, he says).

    This seemed really unrealistic to me. I guess they didn’t want to include his family (and their reaction to IR relationship) so they didn’t have to deal with it- all family interaction (and shock, opposition) to their relationship come from Sanaa and her family.

    That being said, the guy didn’t have (m)any racist or problematic or questionable behaviour. The only issue we see is about the hair, and even that is made in a positive way (he asks Sanaa if he could see her real hair… She gets mad, but later removes the weave… Only to be asked by a black guy to put it back). There was also another thing, when the white guy says one night that he is tired of talking about racism “so can we just relax and forget about it for tonight?” But honestly, that’s the only wrong thing he does/says in the whole movie!

    So all in all, not a bad movie, but the guy was unrealistic…

    Like


  191. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 16:30:57 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Aeigfc,
    Replies below:

    “Perhaps, but the US Census figures on the matter are, for whatever reason or underlying motivation, quite clear – White Men marry/cohabit with Asian Women in far greater numbers than they do with Black Women. FACT. Now again, we can go into WHY that is, although in my experience as a Man, things just don’t tend to be that complex and deep for the human male; things laregly start out at the physical level. I would surmise that YES, in the main, White Men vibe more to the Asian female aesthetic, than the Black female one, all things being equal. Again, the US Census figures on the matter seem to tally with this.”

    A: Perhaps, but the US Census figures on the matter are, for whatever reason or underlying motivation, quite clear – Black men land up in prison in far greater percentages than Asian men do. FACT. Now again, we can go into WHY that is, although in my experience as a human, things just don’t tend to be that complex and deep for the human considering crime; things largely start out at the impulsive level. I would surmise that YES, in the main, Black men indulge in senseless acts of violence and aggression far more than Asian men do, all things being equal. Again, the US Census figures on the matter seem to tally with this.

    O: Actually, you would be quoting US DOJ and FBI crime stats figures, not the Census, LOL. But I get your point. And again, you are wrong – the analogy would work, only if Abagond was leading a discussion on the criminal justice system and/or Black Crime in some way; then, what you said above would be germane. As it now stands though, it doesn’t work, for the reasons previously cited.

    Nice try though.:)

    “My only concern is how they both weasel out of actual questions posed to them”

    A: The thing is, you asked a question about why BW/WM pairings are not as common as AW/WM pairings, when in truth Abagond has already expounded on this in the original post more or less, and actually elsewhere in this blog.

    O: I don’t deny that fact, though I’ve yet to read the post(s) myself; I was confining myself to the current post topic. Thus far, it doesn’t appear to have bother Abagond; if it’s OK with him, why shouldn’t it be OK with you, too?

    A: Yet, you stick your fingers in your ears, and at the same time demand that two BW commenters (and no one else)

    O: Hang on – where did I say this? Quotes, please? I’ll wait…

    A: answer you, just so you can grab your popcorn and watch them squirm (when in fact they just can’t be bothered with this topic that has been beaten to death),

    O: If that is indeed true, why are they both regular and frequent commenters on this thread? Please explain?

    A: you do come across as creepy and having issues with black women in IRs.

    O: Really? How so? Please explain?

    A: *I don’t buy into the myth of black (male) aggression.

    O: No one asked; I for one, certainly didn’t.

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  192. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 16:35:26 theobsidianfiles

    Mira,
    Wrt “Something New” what CDF, Anagond and I were talking about was something much, much simpler than you’re talking about, and that was the root basic premise:

    Buppie Sista with supposedly high-powered gig falls for White Guy “free spirit” gardener/landscaper type.

    Yea, riiight…

    If the two were at least similar placed socially, I could work with the premise, and I believe i speak for the other two Brothas in the discussion. In fact, I think the Black lady “swirlers” in the round would like “Alien vs. Predator” much moreso than the former flick; it showed the possibility of a Black Woman getting with White Men in a much more credible light, given the context of the movie and the premise of its characters – and for the record, I actually liked the flick. I consider it one of Lathaan’s best to date.

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  193. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 16:39:01 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    With all due respect, that isn’t my position at all. I haven’t said a blessed word about the femininity, or lack thereof, of Black Women, nor have I said anything about family life, etc et al. What I was speaking to, was the charges made by SOME Black Women, on a range of issues, and responded in kind. If you will kindly checkout my blog, this is what I do routinely; provide a response. Quite a bit different from what Menelik Charles does.

    Just wanted to point out that very important distinction; it seems there are those in this venue who seem prone to grossly misconstrue or otherwise misrepresent what I’ve actually said…

    O.

    Like


  194. Thad,

    Just accept it–you’re one of the popular crowd now! Want to come sit at the table with me and Natasha and trade Lunchables? You can join us in our plot to hook up Black women the world over with White men.:-)

    Psychoanalysis went out of style in the 80s (and that’s being generous)–I’m not even touching that one.

    Mira,

    I thought both of the main characters were unrealistic, so I ended up finding some of the “dramatic” moments laughable. When Sanaa said something about the black tax, I’ll admit I laughed. I didn’t know people actually called that. And Blair Underwood’s character was just creepy. That didn’t have much to do with that movie in particular though–I have TV love triangles where one person is so outrageous that you just have to pick the other one. Why not just have nice, regular people get dumped sometimes? /End rant

    The film’s director is Moroccan (and her name is Sanaa too, interestingly enough), so my guess would be that’s why she focused so much on (the other) Sanaa’s character. Though I kind of think the film tried to go for too many contrasts: Black/White, uptight/laidback, corporate/self-employed, and so on. I would’ve found it much more realistic if they had something in common (besides the friend/secretary?); then the plot wouldn’t have been so contrived.

    Like


  195. O rly, Obsid? You’re fundamentally different from MC, are you? Don’t see the world through his lens, do you?

    You on black female attitude:
    You know, I’ve always said that there was a reason – a very, deeply profound reason – that Hip Hop, most notably its “Gangsta Rap” variant, has not only endured over all other forms of the artform, but has and continues to get howls of derision from the Sistahood; and that reason is because what the rappers are saying about a goodly portion of Black Women, is true.

    You on black women and their lack of “family values”:
    Women in general, and it can be said Black Women in particular, have in many instances, run off many otherwise good Black Men from playing any significant role in the lives of their kids, aside from finanical ones, of course.

    To give you you’re due, however, I will say your critiques of certain facts regarding male/female strife are closer to mine than MC’s are.

    Like


  196. Menelik:

    As I have told Thad, you can call commenters by a shortened form of their name, like “MC” or “Thad”, but not something else, like Satan.

    Like


  197. @Thad,

    “So why don’t you show us yours, FG? Hell, I’ve shown everyone mine already.”

    This country is full of social factions very hostile to what I have to say so it’s best to remain anonymous. Individuals advocating for mixed race causes have recieved death threats in the past. It’s kind of funny, but it seems at times that criticism of hypodescent ideologies and racialism as a form of social organization is more controversial than both racist and anti-racist advocacy in the US. Now, if I lived in Rio too and was surrounded by millions of people of similar ancestral background and worldview as myself, I probably would see no need for anonymity.

    Like


  198. I’ll let MC call me “Satan” if I can call him “cousin” and “friend” though, Abagond.😀

    Like


  199. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 17:32:57 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Again, as the quotes of me shows, that I am responding to the views and charges of SOME Black Women; they aren’t positions I’ve put other there of my own accord. I think that’s an important disctinction to make, especially since you’re attempting to link me and MC at the hip. In fact, there are some things about MC that I am not to sure about, but I don’t necessarily knock him for it either; I figure he’s got just as much a right to state his views as anyone else, and given the amount of flak he gets for it, doesn’t need my help in pointing out this to him, LOL.

    All that said, would you mind giving me a sense on where you say we agree? Thanks!

    O.

    Like


  200. Oh, I get death threats all the time, too, FG, for a variety of reasons.

    I think you should just come out and say who you are and forget about anonymity. If someone REALLY wanted to kill you, it’d take them an afternoon’s work on the internet to find out who you are. So protecting yourself from violence isn’t really a good excuse.

    I think you’re only fooling yourself if you think you’re truly anonymous. Those days on the internet have long come and gone.

    Like


  201. Obsidian,

    Well, I disagree with most of the “privilege” view of oppression, whether it’s applied to race, gender or whatnot. Gays can talk about hetero privileges because they truly have them – legal rights which gays don’t have. But most of racism and sexism today isn’t based on privilege. So when I hear women talking about male privilege – which really no longer exists for a variety of reasons you bring up – it’s like nails craping on chalkboards.

    Not that this doesn’t mean that sexism isn’t alive and well, mind you.

    Furthermore, men are much more often the victims of violence than women are and women are also up there when it comes to being aggressors, yet we some how only remember male violence against women.

    Finally, yeah, I think women often have some incredibly unrealistic expectations of relationships and men – just as men do regarding relationships and women.

    Like


  202. The comments for this post seem to be derailing…

    Jasmin,

    “I’m actually sort of surprised that people are willing to demonstrate so clearly that they care so much about people they don’t know.”

    The internet is the only venue they have to vent their Insecurity, Fears, and Frustration. That’s obviously all it is: I call it I.F.F. Isn’t it cute how some get when they realize that no one’s taking them into account? At best, their behavior is ironically causing exactly what they fear the most: more women leaving them behind in their whinging and mess. Women see this and go “WTF?… Done.” They don’t realize they are serving as the best advocates for interracial relationships for black women; neither of us hold a candle to them!

    “And I already told you, I like your avatar.”

    Thanks!

    “I might copy you, because I have this picture of my boyfriend that’s my new favorite”

    Feel free. Seeing as we’re supposedly both advocates anyway… let’s give these claims a little more veracity.

    “I can become a brown-haired Jewish male just in time for Hanukkah”

    Lol!

    FG,

    “This country is full of social factions very hostile to what I have to say so it’s best to remain anonymous. Individuals advocating for mixed race causes have recieved death threats in the past.”

    Is that your “excuse”? One word: lol.

    Now, where have you ever proved that you are mixed race? Where? Since we all need proof of peoples’ identities on the internet? Serious question. Are we supposed to take you on faith, when you don’t grant the same courtesy? You don’t even have an avatar. All you have ever proved time and time again is that you’re a wannabe white (that’s not an ad hominem, because you yourself have said this numerous times) and that’s why you obsess over me and my relationship. We have no reason to believe you and your hypocrisy.

    Like


  203. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 18:41:12 Menelik Charles

    Ok Abagond,

    thank you very much for removing my post!!! I shall re-post it without the offending word.

    Ok, pal?:?:?@?@?

    Like


  204. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 18:43:18 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Natasha,
    Replies below:

    N: The comments for this post seem to be derailing…

    O: Really? How so? I think if the comments were that off-kilter, Abagond would have said something by now…

    N: Jasmin,

    “I’m actually sort of surprised that people are willing to demonstrate so clearly that they care so much about people they don’t know.”

    The internet is the only venue they have to vent their Insecurity, Fears, and Frustration. That’s obviously all it is: I call it I.F.F. Isn’t it cute how some get when they realize that no one’s taking them into account? At best, their behavior is ironically causing exactly what they fear the most: more women leaving them behind in their whinging and mess. Women see this and go “WTF?… Done.” They don’t realize they are serving as the best advocates for interracial relationships for black women; neither of us hold a candle to them!

    O: Obviously, you and Jasmin are doing a very poor job of referring to me, LOL. Much better, since you claim to know me so very well, to simply directly speak to me, rather than engage in a very bad game of Cloak & Dagger.

    But at any rate, I am not insecure, fear nothing and rarely feel frustrated, by anything in life. I take much of life as it comes and don’t let many things ruffle my feathers, so to speak. As for supposedly driving Black Women into the arms of presumably White Men? Again, I present the now-well known article written by Jill Scott earlier this year, which made quite a stir online and off, about Black Men seeking White Women as mates and her views about it. I also present into the evidentary record the current and historical US Census figures, which clearly indicate that the majority of Black Men marry Black Women. *shrugs*

    “This country is full of social factions very hostile to what I have to say so it’s best to remain anonymous. Individuals advocating for mixed race causes have recieved death threats in the past.”

    N: Is that your “excuse”? One word: lol.

    O: FG’s rationale as to why he/she won’t divulge or reveal his/her identity is just as good as yours, in my view. And btw, weren’t you just lamenting how this thread was “derailing”?

    N: Now, where have you ever proved that you are mixed race? Where? Since we all need proof of peoples’ identities on the internet? Serious question. Are we supposed to take you on faith, when you don’t grant the same courtesy? You don’t even have an avatar. All you have ever proved time and time again is that you’re a wannabe white (that’s not an ad hominem, because you yourself have said this numerous times) and that’s why you obsess over me and my relationship. We have no reason to believe you and your hypocrisy.

    O: Uh, I don’t know much about this FG person and really don’t care, but I’d be careful about slinging that word “hypocrisy” around if I were you, Natasha. After all, we have ample evidence of you engaging in quite a bit of it yourself on several occasions, the current thread included (see Chuck’s comments upthread…).

    *shrugs*

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  205. (CAPS MINE)

    poetess says,

    I feel that, for this social perception to be so pervasive, there must be a social, psychological connection to this, because this WHOLESALE PERCEPTION of BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN as ‘LESS THAN’ other women is bizarre and psycho! And, most, NON-BLACK AMERICANS and MANY BLACK MEN, are quite comfortable and ACCEPTING of this. What does this mean?

    Oyon says,
    I completely agree with your assessment. It is pyscho. To ascertain what it means, we need to look at who the likely beneficiaries are. This would be a starting point.

    malaika says,

    “…and another thing I’ve noticed and discovered just as Natasha W said is that in most of the forums about race relationship, looks like WM/BW relationship is the MOST HATED OF ALL.
    -When asked to men what they think about “certain”women, it’s just amazing how BIASED their comments are.
    -Let say for example when asked what they think about Asian women, it just praising, praising and praising and “NOTHING” bad is said about them as if they were the epitome of perfection…but when it comes to BLACK WOMEN…OH GOD!!! out of 100 comments made, about 60 of them will literally be VENOM words and PROPER VERBAL LYNCHING… it’s AS IF BW WERE SOME KIND OF PUNCHING BAG FOR “ALL MEN”.
    They will just perfectly describe to you HOW UGLY BW ARE FROM HAIR TO TOE. Really, I mean, EVERY RACE has its GOOD AND BAD so why to most of the men BW have ALL THE BAD and NO good in them???… and in MOST of the comments I’ve read it looks like to the rest of the world BW is the EMBODIMENT OF UGLINESS AND BAD BEHAVIOUR …it’s just UNBELIEVABLE how HATEFUL human beings can be.
    By the way MOSTof those forums and people commenting were AMERICANS.

    laromana says,
    poetess, Oyon, and malaika, thanks for your excellent analyses of the MADNESS that is ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and the FACT that it is the MAJOR reason the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW have HISTORICALLY been DEMEANED, DEGRADED, and DISRESPECTED by American men of ALL races.
    Some may try to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the OBVIOUS FACT that NON-BW have higher IRR marriage rates in America because they haven’t been HISTORICALLY SINGLED OUT by American culture/media for BLATANT RACISM/HATE. There is NO INSTITUTIONAL STIGMA attached to intermarriage with NON-BW so American men of ALL RACES have NO PROBLEM seriously dating or marrying them.

    OBVIOUSLY, there isn’t and HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING INTRINSICALLY WRONG with BW (eg. beauty, femininity, etc.). BW ARE NOT “LESS THAN” NON-BW and NON-BW ARE NOT “BETTER” than BW.
    The ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in America that underlies the mistreatment of BW as “INFERIOR NON-HUMAN/NON-WOMEN” is BIZZARE/PSYCHO and needs to be CONDEMNED/DESTROYED, NOT RATIONALIZED/CONDONED.

    Like


  206. “Now, where have you ever proved that you are mixed race? Where? Since we all need proof of peoples’ identities on the internet? Serious question. Are we supposed to take you on faith, when you don’t grant the same courtesy? You don’t even have an avatar. All you have ever proved time and time again is that you’re a wannabe white (that’s not an ad hominem, because you yourself have said this numerous times) and that’s why you obsess over me and my relationship. We have no reason to believe you and your hypocrisy.”

    Indeed I haven’t proved that I’m mixed. I haven’t made any inconsistent, implausible statements indicating that I’m not either.

    I’ve never said I’m a “wannabe white.” I am a predominantly European person (and look it) who criticizes traditional prejudices and ideologies advocated on this website that assert people like me are “passing” or are social frauds and have no right to identify with their European heritage.

    Furthermore, I don’t “obssess” over you. I’m just a lover of truth and wish to identify claims and assertions that are obviously false.

    Like


  207. FG,

    “Indeed I haven’t proved that I’m mixed. I haven’t made any inconsistent, implausible statements indicating that I’m not either.”

    Umm, you’ve called yourself:

    (1) black
    (2) white
    (3) biracial
    (4) “near-white”

    on isolated occasions on different blogs. If that’s not inconsistent, then what is?

    “I’ve never said I’m a “wannabe white.” I am a predominantly European person (and look it) who criticizes traditional prejudices and ideologies advocated on this website that assert people like me are “passing” or are social frauds and have no right to identify with their European heritage.”

    Sure you do. Did you make that up just for this blog? I swear you were white (or was it black?) on that other blog. Cute.

    Like


  208. No it is consistent. There are at least two ways to think about race: biological race and social race. Biologically I’m an Afro-European individual who leans pretty strongly towards the white end of the spectrum. That doesn’t change, of course. On the other hand, the social race of people like me who live in the US is highly variable and ambiguous. We can be treated as any of those designations and are. That’s why I may refer to myself as different things at different times.

    It’s a mixed thing. Y’all wouldn’t understand.

    Like


  209. Okay.

    As I said: lol. Please, do use any convoluted nonsense to explain away your inconsistent, implausible claims while claiming others are the ones presenting such claims. You’re an lol trip.

    Like


  210. Menelik & Thad:

    This chest beating between you two is way off topic. I am deleting all posts on it. If I missed any, let me know and I will gladly delete them.

    Like


  211. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 19:41:45 Menelik Charles

    Natasha W said:

    Abagond,

    is it okay by your commenting rules for people to speculate on others’ personal lives? FG creeps me out with his stalker-ish behavior. He follows me everywhere.

    Natasha said:

    FG,

    Umm, you’ve called yourself:

    (1) black
    (2) white
    (3) biracial
    (4) “near-white”

    on isolated occasions on different blogs. If that’s not inconsistent, then what is? I swear you were white (or was it black?) on that other blog. Cute.

    Menelik asks:

    are you “following” FG “everywhere”, Natasha? If so, I think Abagond should be told, wouldn’t you say?

    Just saying!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  212. Menelik, nope, because he follows me so closely, ironically, I got to witness every single one of his inconsisent, implausible claims. Ask the blog owners.

    Like


  213. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 19:51:20 Menelik Charles

    Abagond,

    like I said: you’ve outdone yourself! You allow people to make all kinds of slanderous claims about my life and experiences and you won’t even permit me to defend my role as hands-on father to my daughter?

    What is this?

    Like


  214. If you wanna gripe more about my views on you, MC, take it to my blog. If you like, I’ll do a whole page all about you and your beliefs for you to comment on.

    Like


  215. As a BW who has lived in Canada and Britain, I did see a difference between European White men and North American White men’s attitude toward dating Black Women. Brit WM don’t care generally about skin color or straight natural hair when dating BW. I found Brit WM from all sorts date BW. But in North America, it was WM who had very low minimum wages who wanted BW to support them. Also WM who came from dysfunctional abusive backgrounds or watched stereotypes of Blacks on TV, picked up nasty habits and assumed that Blacks would let them get away with their low standards and bad behavior

    Like


  216. Menelik:

    If there are any posts of Thad’s about your personal life that I overlooked, I will gladly delete them.

    My advice to you is to ignore Thad. He is yanking your chain. He is fully capable of making you do something that will get you kicked off. He already did it to B.R. and he did it in the same way – by constantly doubting his claims about his personal life and finding ways to put him down. It made B.R. so angry that he no longer cared if what he did got him kicked off.

    Like


  217. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 20:19:48 Menelik Charles

    Yeah, so why not kick this man off then???????? I don’t mind people stalking me on-line but i shall not have to tolerate slander on-line!

    Like


  218. Thad:

    No more remarks about people’s personal lives. You have done it to me, Peanut, B.R., Menelik, Ankhesen and no doubt others who do not come to mind right at the moment. It is an ad hominem and, coming from you, hardly an innocent one.

    This is your warning. If you choose to ignore it, you will be banned.

    Like


  219. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 20:30:30 Menelik Charles

    My question, Abagond, is still outstanding.

    Like


  220. Menelik:

    I give commenters of long-standing a warning before I ban them.

    Like


  221. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 20:40:25 Menelik Charles

    He’s at it again ABAGOND!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What I never, EVER said was that I am estranged from my ex-partner or my daughter (whom I pick from school and put to bed every night).

    You said and insinuated both! I never suggested either. This is slander!!!!!

    He’s At it again ABAGOND!!!!!!!!!!!

    Like


  222. Thad:

    Menelik’s personal life has nothing to do with whether his arguments are true or false. Bringing it up is just pure ad hominem. A serial rapist, for example, can make perfectly good arguments for chastity. Maybe even better than most.

    Like


  223. Would continually asking women about their relationship (or lack thereof) with their fathers if they don’t agree with their viewpoints be considered personal?

    Would calling someone a wicked wench be considered slander? If so, there are some who are not as innocent as they claim.

    Based on some of the comments of some of the men here, I have never seen so many women haters.

    Like


  224. Thad & Menelik:

    Thad, you are right: Menelik has hardly been a gentleman himself. So you are both on warning.

    Like


  225. OK, Abagond. As long as it’s both of us, I can live with that.

    Like


  226. I agree with Jasmin and Laromana. White guys (from my exprience) don’t treat us any differently than any other race of women. I have never encountered a white guy who only wanted “one thing”. In fact, most first impression is that I’m kinda girly and prissy.

    Not all white men view us as sexual beings. I’d say that most do not.

    Like


  227. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 21:18:14 Menelik Charles

    as long as you keep what i say away from whatever you think or say, I can live with that! Don’t ever associate my words, thoughts etc with anything you say!

    @ Abagond,

    this is your blog, yeah? Here’s a challenge,pal: when have I ever used someone’s personal life as a basis for an assault on their character?

    Like


  228. “So why do the women haters get a pass, Abagond?”

    Completely agree!

    “Frankly, I’m tired of misogyny masquerading as “Pan-African nationalism”. ”

    That has been my arguement all along. Anyone who claims to love all things black but then degrade, hate and attack a certain population of the very women you claim to love is very misogynistic. He’s certainly attacked me numerous times because I am “the wrong color”.

    Dark, light, “swirlers” or not – we are all black women.

    Like


  229. Natasha,

    I’m wearing a white sweater today–all part of the code.:-)

    Again, I’ll agree with Thad, Abagond. You do let misogyny slide more than other types of conflicts. But in fairness to you, your moderation policy is anything but strict.

    Like


  230. And Islandgirl. Apparently great minds post at the same time.:-)

    Like


  231. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 21:20:35 theobsidianfiles

    IG,
    Your own personal experience notwithstanding, the questions Abagond put ont the table, and which I followed up with, remain:

    How do you explain the fact that prior to the Loving decision, Black Men braved the threat of death to marry White Women, and in our time right now, with no such threats to deal with, White Men don’t, with regard to Black Women?

    How do you explain the fact that for every BF/WM married couple you will see, there are easily FOUR TIMES AS MANY AF/WM MARRIED COUPLES out there, despite the fact that Asian Women haven’t been in the country as long as Black Women, or aren’t anywhere as numerous in terms of population size as Black Women?

    These are two very basic questions that need to be confronted directly by those who are of the “Swirling Sista” persuasion. I mean, if they’re honest, that is.

    Perhaps that might be you?😉

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  232. Natasha,

    Count me in when you start your blog!

    Like


  233. Almost every man wants long smooth silky straight/curly hair–the total opposite of a black woman’s natural hair, which is usually in thick rough braids or a grassy prickly aphro. Did you know that for every dollar a black woman spends on her hair, the average woman spends FOUR CENTS on her hair!

    Like


  234. LOL, Jasmin!

    Apparently they do!

    Like


  235. @Jasmin
    But in fairness to you, your moderation policy is anything but strict.

    …and I will say Abagond’s moderation policy IS generally fair. It shouldn’t be strict, but if people are going to complain about me and then merrily do the same things themselves, hell yeah, I’ll complain.

    Like


  236. @Obsid
    How do you explain the fact that for every BF/WM married couple you will see, there are easily FOUR TIMES AS MANY AF/WM MARRIED COUPLES out there,…

    An exageration. When you take into account relative population sizes, it’s twice as many, not four times as many.

    Like


  237. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 21:38:38 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    It is? How so? Please explain?

    And even if what you say is right, my point remains: Asians aren’t as numerous in this country, yet outnumber their IR marital rate in relation to BF/WM. How do we explain this, especially in light of the fact that unlike Black Men, Black Women didn’t face the threat of death for merely looking at one of the opposite sex, AND, had a landmark SCOTUS case decided that involved a Black Woman – yet, more than four decades on from that decision, BF/Wm couples make up barely a third of all Black/White marrieds? No matter how you slice it Thad, these are some questions for our Swirling Sistahood that does indeed, make them squirm – just look at the silence on their part.

    Oh, but what the heck, maybe you can explain it…
    😉

    O.

    Like


  238. Obsidian,

    I am not young. I’m 42, so you can cease the patronizing stance you’ve decided to take with me.

    I notice that the men here quickly go to patronizing and being condescending to the women here when we disagree, often using all sorts of diminutive nicknames for said women or implying that we are either too young, too uneducated, too stupid or too psychologically compromised to form an argument they must pay credence to. This goes on a LOT here along with tons of racio-misogyny towards BW. But then, as Jasmin pointed out, Abagond’s commenting restrictions are relatively few.

    I see no need to answer your questions because I don’t care who other WM want to date. I only care about ONE WM, and he doesn’t want to date anyone but me. I also don’t care who BM want to date since I’m not dating one. If I were single, I wouldn’t care because I wouldn’t be dating. And even if I were dating, I can’t pull another man from a woman if he has zero attraction to me so why bother.

    Seems you want some sort of admission from BW that yes, we are intrinsically ugly, undesirable and unlovable. That’s the sum of your questions. Boo hoo, no one really wants us. Our lives with WM are a lie in that 1) said WM really don’t exist; we made ’em up, 2) we scraped the bottom of the barrel for sub-standard WM and/or 3) we really desperately wanted BM, but BM went for inherently superior non-BW and that left us stuck. But really, no one wants BW, not even BM. If you’re fine seeing BW that way, well, that’s for you to live with.

    I cannot blame BW for choosing NOT to see themselves that way. I don’t see the point of BW doing that unless it’s to remain in a permanent state of depression and learned-helplessness. You feel that BW need to know these “facts.” To what end? Certainly not to BW’s uplift. How is it uplifting to BW to feel we’re ugly and unwanted? What are we supposed to do with that information, seriously?

    The complaints about Natasha and Jasmin constantly bringing up their White sig-o’s sound a lot like accusations of “flaunting” that mixed couples and same-sex couples constantly have to deal with. Someone doesn’t like your relationship then ANY reference to it 1) they’re going to notice and hyperfocus on and 2) that hyperfocusing will build the whole thing up way more than it warrants. These are the folks who accuse gay couples of “flaunting” their homosexuality when they dare mention their partner in a relevant context or they see a gay couple holding hands in public. Meanwhile, they ignore all the flaunting straights do of their relationships because that’s “normal.”

    I’ve been accused of “always bringing up my WM” when I was talking about something said WM did and NOT in the context of him being White. I could be mentioning that my boyfriend (at the time) loathed asking for directions, mentioning nothing about his Whiteness or making any allusions to it (like mentioning his ethnicity which would lead one to realize he was White) and have someone get pissy at me for “bringing up that White man” again simply because they know the person I’m talking about is White because they don’t like the fact I’m with a WM.

    It’s even more ridiculous to accuse folks of “flaunting” their interracial relationships when the topic IS interracial relationships. Even moreso when the topic is BW and WM to accuse BW with WM mentioning THEIR relationships of flaunting them or trying to show off or push some agenda.

    Like


  239. Obsidian,

    You keep mentioning stats on BW/WM marriages vs. WM/AW marriages as if 1) BW don’t know that WM marry AW moreso than us and 2) as if that’s some sort of proof that “WM don’t want BW anyway.”

    Yet again, what are BW supposed to DO with that info?

    And why is my comment in moderation? I don’t remember typing any dirty words.

    Like


  240. Witchsistah & Jasmin:

    There are a few words that I moderate secretly to catch trolls. It is the only way I can beat trolls who know how to use proxy servers.

    Like


  241. White men choosing Asian over black women as a group really has no bearing on my romantic relations, whether the man I am with is white or non-white. It’s a non- issue as far as I’m concerned. The only time I my race has been as issue when dealing with whites was in my online dating “experiment”. Aside from that I’ve always done the rejecting when it comes to white male advances. *shrugs*

    Like


  242. Also even if white men pick black women last I don’t think this will stop the ones that truly want a white boyfriend/SO from getting one. I didn’t know the majority of white men had to find black women attractive, and vis versa, in order for black women and white men to get together. This is news to me.

    Like


  243. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 22:51:30 theobsidianfiles

    WS: Obsidian,

    I am not young. I’m 42, so you can cease the patronizing stance you’ve decided to take with me.

    O: Oh!-I suppose you’re no use to Jasmin, since you’re old enough to be her mom…right?😉

    At any rate, my bad, didn’t mean any harm. I apologize.

    WS: I notice that the men here quickly go to patronizing and being condescending to the women here when we disagree, often using all sorts of diminutive nicknames for said women or implying that we are either too young, too uneducated, too stupid or too psychologically compromised to form an argument they must pay credence to. This goes on a LOT here along with tons of racio-misogyny towards BW. But then, as Jasmin pointed out, Abagond’s commenting restrictions are relatively few.

    O: None of your accusations above apply to me, I’ve been nothing but respectful toward you in our interactions. You just don’t like what I’ve said, and since you really can’t assail that, you want to assail me instead. There’s a name for such a thing, you know.

    As for Jasmin, she calls guys she disagrees with old and creepy, LOL. What a joke.

    WS: I see no need to answer your questions because I don’t care who other WM want to date. I only care about ONE WM, and he doesn’t want to date anyone but me. I also don’t care who BM want to date since I’m not dating one. If I were single, I wouldn’t care because I wouldn’t be dating. And even if I were dating, I can’t pull another man from a woman if he has zero attraction to me so why bother.

    O: You don’t care to answer the honest questions based on actual facts because the implications are too painful to admit, and you know it. and for what it’s worth, I can dig it. But it doesn’t change the facts. It just doesn’t.

    WS: Seems you want some sort of admission from BW that yes, we are intrinsically ugly, undesirable and unlovable. That’s the sum of your questions. Boo hoo, no one really wants us. Our lives with WM are a lie in that 1) said WM really don’t exist; we made ‘em up, 2) we scraped the bottom of the barrel for sub-standard WM and/or 3) we really desperately wanted BM, but BM went for inherently superior non-BW and that left us stuck. But really, no one wants BW, not even BM. If you’re fine seeing BW that way, well, that’s for you to live with.

    O: First off, that’s not what I think in the least, and second, what I want is for Black Women to stop pretending they’re Ms. Ann and meet life on its terms. And the simple truth of it is, that getting with a White guy simply will not be an option for most of them. Yes, you, Natasha, Jasmin and Islandgirl are notable exceptions; but the facts, per the Census, for some four decades running, post-Loving, are the facts. See below for more on these points…

    WS: I cannot blame BW for choosing NOT to see themselves that way. I don’t see the point of BW doing that unless it’s to remain in a permanent state of depression and learned-helplessness. You feel that BW need to know these “facts.” To what end? Certainly not to BW’s uplift. How is it uplifting to BW to feel we’re ugly and unwanted? What are we supposed to do with that information, seriously?

    WS: The complaints about Natasha and Jasmin constantly bringing up their White sig-o’s sound a lot like accusations of “flaunting” that mixed couples and same-sex couples constantly have to deal with. Someone doesn’t like your relationship then ANY reference to it 1) they’re going to notice and hyperfocus on and 2) that hyperfocusing will build the whole thing up way more than it warrants. These are the folks who accuse gay couples of “flaunting” their homosexuality when they dare mention their partner in a relevant context or they see a gay couple holding hands in public. Meanwhile, they ignore all the flaunting straights do of their relationships because that’s “normal.”

    O: See my comments below…

    WM: I’ve been accused of “always bringing up my WM” when I was talking about something said WM did and NOT in the context of him being White. I could be mentioning that my boyfriend (at the time) loathed asking for directions, mentioning nothing about his Whiteness or making any allusions to it (like mentioning his ethnicity which would lead one to realize he was White) and have someone get pissy at me for “bringing up that White man” again simply because they know the person I’m talking about is White because they don’t like the fact I’m with a WM.

    O: I’m sorry to hear that, but all things in life carry with them tradeoffs. Apparently, you’ve met yours. *shrugs*

    WS: It’s even more ridiculous to accuse folks of “flaunting” their interracial relationships when the topic IS interracial relationships. Even moreso when the topic is BW and WM to accuse BW with WM mentioning THEIR relationships of flaunting them or trying to show off or push some agenda.

    O: I am not accusing anyone here, I am making statements of fact. Jasmin is a self-proclaimed “swirl” blogger. Read her byline written by her own hand. Natasha discusses her White boyfriend nearly every chance she gets, so I think both are fair game here.

    WS: Obsidian,

    You keep mentioning stats on BW/WM marriages vs. WM/AW marriages as if 1) BW don’t know that WM marry AW moreso than us and 2) as if that’s some sort of proof that “WM don’t want BW anyway.”

    Yet again, what are BW supposed to DO with that info?

    O: Those among you who actively promote “swirling” should square up and honestly acknowledge these facts, that’s what. ignoring them, or attacking those who bring them up, won’t change anything and in fact could make matters worse for some Black Women. Regardless as to the reasons why, the fact remains that White Men, in the year 2010, marry Asian Women at at least twice the rate they do Black Women. These are things Black Women, again as a group, have to honestly come to grips with. Attacking me or anyone else who brings up these inconvenient truths won’t help anything.

    They’re supposed to keep things in perspective, and not blow things out of proportion, which Women as a group tend to do. The simple truth of it is that Black Women simply don’t have the luxury of “princess” type delusions that their White sisters can afford to indulge in. Please see the following for more on these points:

    http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/sistas-cant-be-ms-ann/

    http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/sistas-cant-be-ms-ann-part-two-myth-reality-a-personal-testimony/

    http://theobsidianfiles.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/sistas-ms-ann-dr-laura-l-concluding-thoughts/

    And holla back:)

    O.

    Like


  244. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 22:53:55 Menelik Charles

    “Frankly, I’m tired of misogyny masquerading as “Pan-African nationalism”. ”

    Menelik says:

    Abagond, white-knight me on the above, why don’t you? I have NEVER claimed or promoted “Pan-African nationalism” on here or on similar site. Can you please stop allowing people to make false accusation about me, and then attacking my character based on that which is false?

    Thanks, mate, yeah, I really appreciate it!!!!!!

    Like


  245. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 23:02:47 theobsidianfiles

    Y,
    The issue isn’t whether you have beaten the odds, the issue is what things look like in aggregate, because quite a few of your sisters WON’T be able to beat the odds. Why it is that it is so hard for you and others to accept the simple facts on the ground will serve to be Sistas’ undoing.

    As we have already seen…

    O.

    Like


  246. Whoops, Obsid! You’re right. The “Asians” thing didn’t click there. I was thinking BW versus WM. The BW rate of marriage to white men is twice the WM’s rate to BW.

    That would be a better comparison in any case, because each sort of racism in the U.S. is different.

    But first of all, I think the problem is that you’re trying to use sociology to prove something about personal choices. No matter what the rates are, there still are millions of white men who’ll date and marry black women.

    Speaking as a 43 year old white guy who grew up in the States (and spent 4 years of my college education there), I can say that I would have NEVER asked a black woman out because, knowing what I know about racism and the history of race relations in the U.S., I thought that the vast majority of black women would have seen this as an insult or as presumption on my part. I had a couple of good black women friends who I really WOULD have liked to ask out, but I was very intimidated by the history of it all. I had no problems with the ideas that such a relationship might end up in marriage and kids, however.

    20 some years in Brazil has let me view the history of U.S. race relations with a degree more of… well… cycnicism, perhaps. I see that a lot of what I thought I knew about race before was dogma – well-meaning dogma, perhaps, but still dogma. Today I wouldn’t be so afraid of asking a black american woman out. I’d still want to be very sure that she got a chance to know me as a person, however, beforehand. I certainly wouldn’t just hit on her or ask her for her phone number, as certain male commentators here do. But then again, I wouldn’t do that with any color of woman, so…

    In any case, going strictly on my own experience, I’d say that alot of the white guys who are open to a relationship with black women and who think black women are beautiful are PRECISELY the kind of white guys who give at least half an ear to the kind of pan-africanist “our women are our women” bulls*** that certain men here are spouting. At least they won’t reject such an opinion out of hand. They’re the kind of guy who knows that they don’t know much about racism and whatnot and don’t want to tread on any toes or look like a leacherous white scumbag.

    So that also needs to be tossed into your reckoning.

    Like


  247. “You keep mentioning stats on BW/WM marriages vs. WM/AW marriages as if 1) BW don’t know that WM marry AW moreso than us and 2) as if that’s some sort of proof that “WM don’t want BW anyway.”

    It also doesn’t take into account the way that the two stereotypical images have been played one against the another.

    Asian women: Compliant, meek, submissive, dutiful, quiet, accepting, diligent, faithful, caring.

    Black women Angry, domineering, gold digging, unfaithful, complaining, violent, loud, selfish.

    Of course neither of the above descriptions for either case is even remotely true. But the fact that these flipside stereotypes do exist gives you much of the reason as to why the numbers are as they are.

    It’s classic misinformation strategy. The disparity has nothing to do with the women themselves and everything to do with how they are misrepresented in media, literature, music and drama.

    So yes, a problem does exists, but it is based on misinformation, but misinformation can be overcome by correct information, when given the chance.

    Like


  248. Also, with regards to this “beating the odds” thing…

    Anyone who approaches interpersonal relationships as if they were some sort of betting strategy richly deserves what they get.

    Like


  249. Well seeing as a very, very small percentage of bw are even interested in seriously dating/marrying non-black men I don’t see what you are getting at with your questions. Vast majority of BW want nothing to do with WM romantically. Fact. I don’t see your point in stating most bw can’t do IRR when most simply aren’t interested.

    Like


  250. “You keep mentioning stats on BW/WM marriages vs. WM/AW marriages as if 1) BW don’t know that WM marry AW moreso than us and 2) as if that’s some sort of proof that “WM don’t want BW anyway.”

    Also, most of the ideas about Black women are based on misinformation. It ‘s not something set in stone. Once any guy realizes that many of these stereotypes are simply untrue, then there is a much better chance that their previously held reservations will dissolve, in light of better intel.

    Like


  251. on Tue 2 Nov 2010 at 23:51:51 theobsidianfiles

    Y,
    I’ve answered your questions above, in my response to WitchSistah: its important to answer the notion that “swirling” is a viable option for most Sistas; it is not. Again, please note the links in my reply to her, they are important.

    Thad,
    For a worldly guy, you do seem a bit naive. The reality of this world is that there are real tradeoffs to things we want to do, as well as real odds as to our success or failure in any given area of life. Some people are ablle to play fast and loose with life, others not so much. No, its not fair, but adults realize that very few, if any, things in and about life are.

    O.

    Like


  252. Obisd, the thing is, personal relationships are by their very nature PERSONAL. So to try to guess the success or failure of any given one based on sociological stats is pretty useless.

    It’s precisely because I AM a social scientist (though I don’t know if this qualifies me as worldly) that my alarm bells go off when people try to chart a course to personal happiness in interpersonal relationships based on the sort of stats you cite.

    Like


  253. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 00:13:13 theobsidianfiles

    Thad, please. We all know that if you smoke, or drink to excess, or for that matter eat to excess, that we’ve have health problems. Call that sociological stats if you want. Me, I call it commonsense.

    I know that the idea that love and the like is a mystical, magical thing in the West; I get that. But it still doesn’t change the facts on the ground. For most people, most of the time, at some point they grow up and meet life on its terms. You more than anyone should understand that for at least a generation, Women in general and for purposes of this convo quite a few Black Women, have been given a bill of goods that simply isn’t so. and which leads to so many of them being so profoundly unhappy. This is due to what I like to call Ms. Ann Syndrome, if you will; please see the links I posted in my reply to WitchSistah for more on what I’m referring to here.

    No, we can’t, nor shouldn’t, attempt to plan everything in our lives out to the last detail. But we know enough about life at this point in our human history, to do a heck of a lot better than we do. There is simply no excuse, especially if you just happen to come from a social group who’s already behind the eight ball as it is.

    When it comes to topics like this, Sistas in toto, fit the bill.

    They need to grow up, and Man Up.

    O.

    Like


  254. woah…. have fun with that abagond!:-)

    Like


  255. Obs,

    Basically your advice to BW is stick to BM and lower your standards into the ground if need be to get one since you are so adamant that BW cannot get BM to change and that BM are not going to change at all. And basically, tough sh*t, BW. Suxx to be you. Yes, I read your links.

    Yeah, I’d rather keep my “illusions” or just not date at all (the latter being more likely) than subject myself to that prognosis.

    Like


  256. Should read (added text in italicx):

    Obs,

    Basically your advice to BW is stick to BM and lower your standards into the ground and put up with whatever bs if need be to get one since you are so adamant that BW cannot get BM to change and that BM are not going to change at all. And basically, tough sh*t, BW. Suxx to be you. Yes, I read your links.

    Nice to know you think so highly of BW.

    Yeah, I’d rather keep my “illusions” or just not date at all (the latter being more likely) than subject myself to that prognosis.

    Like


  257. I’ve read your links before Obs. On this topic you’ve basically said

    1. The BW that date/seek WM as mates are the BW that BM in general don’t want.
    2.BW can’t date WM because they don’t BW(forget that most BW don’t really want to get with WM)
    3. Again BM don’t want BW like you and there is nothing you can do about.

    So if these BW aren’t wanted by BM or WM what do you suggest they do Obs? What incentives do they have for trying their luck with BM?….WM?

    Like


  258. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 00:43:14 theobsidianfiles

    WS,
    If indeed you’ve read my links, and for that matter much of my blog, you would know that what you said above doesn’t apply to me much at all; I haven’t said anywhere on my blog that any Woman should put up with an unfaithful Man, a lying Man, a violent Man, and so forth. Yes, I have advised Black Women to have reduced expectations, because the simple truth of the matter is that for many of them, what they’ve been led to believe they have a right to simply is not attainable for them.

    And yes, as you rightly noted, many of them do have the option, and in some cases take it, of being alone. By all accounts and the evidence as we have it (again, I offer Jill Scott as one of but legion examples), such a thing ain’t working out so well for the Sistahood.

    Oh, and btw: if this were a discussion where say, Chad Ochocinco or a Brotha like him were singing the virtues of White Women, I would chicn check him, too. Again, if you’ve read my blog for any length of time (just had its one year anniversary the other day) you would know that I am very much an equal opportunity offender.
    😉

    O.

    Like


  259. @Obsid

    Thad, please. We all know that if you smoke, or drink to excess, or for that matter eat to excess, that we’ve have health problems. Call that sociological stats if you want. Me, I call it commonsense.

    O, those are health stats, not social stats. And I just read a huge article on how health stats themselves are often cooked – an article by a very reputable guy in a very reputable journal.

    Compared to society, though, stats on health are infinitely more reliable. Your comparing a pretty straight forward stat claim – the effect of tobacco on health – with a hugely complicated stat claim.

    Furthermore, we`re dealing with two fields which are highly fractal in and of themselves: the social and the individual. You’re trying to predict an individual field of results from a massive social field. This is no way comparable to calculating the risks an individual runs in smoking.

    For example, those marriage stats need to be cross referenced to class, ethnicity, region, education and etc. All you seem to want to see is black and white, but that doesn’t even adequately describe the social possibilities of any one woman, let alone personal factors which might be playing in her favor or against her.

    I mean, it’s notable to me that alot of the “swirlers” are apparently college women at non-HBCs, just for starters. A woman like that has a vastly different horizon of possibilities from a woman who’s living in a dying urban area or suburban black ghetto.

    In other words, to incorporate your health stat metaphor, while tobacco is pretty much a constant variable “white men” definitely aren’t and “black women” really definitely aren’t.

    I know that the idea that love and the like is a mystical, magical thing in the West; I get that. But it still doesn’t change the facts on the ground. For most people, most of the time, at some point they grow up and meet life on its terms.

    The problem isn`t that love is subjective or even less that it`s “magical”: the problem is that it’s intensely personal and depends on a huge number of variables which the individual themselves best understand. Dude, I deal with men who falll in love with prostitutes all the time. Now, I might think that’s bizarre, but I’m on my second marriage: who am I to say whether or not these are going to work?

    Like you, I point out that if a person`s looking for something that`s OBVIOUSLY not there (like a guy, frex, who thinks a prostitute is really a traditional and submissive family girl), I feel free to say “well I can see where this is probably going”. But then again, that’s based on an individual reading of an individual situation, not some appeal to stats.

    You more than anyone should understand that for at least a generation, Women in general and for purposes of this convo quite a few Black Women, have been given a bill of goods that simply isn’t so. and which leads to so many of them being so profoundly unhappy. This is due to what I like to call Ms. Ann Syndrome, if you will; please see the links I posted in my reply to WitchSistah for more on what I’m referring to here.

    Can you elaborate, please? What is this bill of goods? I`ll see if I can go up to those links later.

    As for “manning up”, dude, the more i listen to men, the more I learn that there is no solid definition of what a man is or should do. So what “man up” means other than a sort of back-handed swipe at someone’s seriousness, I don’t know.

    Like


  260. Who is singing the virtues of white men here?

    Like


  261. Y & Witchsistah,

    Don’t waste your intelligence on people who don’t have common sense (or thought G*d said trains when he was handing out brains, as my dad would say). Last time I checked, people aren’t really invested in the dating lives of people they find undesirable. Does anyone want to turn the conversation to Flava Flav’s new girlfriend? Didn’t think so.

    Like


  262. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 01:06:17 theobsidianfiles

    Jasmin,
    for someone who claims not to be all that into Hip Hop music or watch music videos, you certainly do seem to be keenly interested in the love life of Flava Flav, LOL. And you have the gall to try to get uppity with me. Yawn.

    None of you can assail what I’ve actually said, the data, the stats. Your personal experience, such as it is at this point, is notable, but by their very definition is the exception to the rule. You need to recognize it as such.

    And stop with this other silliness – both here, and most definitely back at your own blog.

    “Rommel, you bastard! I read your book!”
    – General Patton

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  263. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 01:13:53 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Listen, this is getting tedious. You know as well as I do that the very nature of public health is a social focus and concern, and that the basis of health insurance and the like is based on actuarial stats. So, I’ll base my lifestyle on what they say, and you’re more than free to smoke two packs of cancer sticks a day, and we’ll see who’s hale and healthy two decades from now.😉

    As for “Manning Up” thats simple: Black Women need to get the Ms. Ann fogginess out of their head. The links I’ve embedded above speak to this.

    There are what, less than 150 HBCUs in the entire country – at least 10 million college aged Black Women? Simple math dictates that most of them will NOT attend such schools. Indeed, regardless as to where they went to school, the vast majority of Black Women spend more “facetime” in aggregate among White people in general, than do Black Men, yet the latter still marries out at a rate of what, 2 to 1? How do we explain this? Our “swirlers” decline to answer, of course.

    This is getting way too easy…

    O.

    Like


  264. I should also say that I’m less than impressed with black American and Brit male claims about the “unfeminine” nature and “demanding attitude” of black women because I hear this crap, day in and day out, from both black and white sex tourists here in Rio who are all looking to justify why they “have” to go overseas for paid sex. It’s never their option, their choice… No, they’re PUSHED to do it by those evil, domineering women who’ve been preverted by feminist “western” values. They have no choice, you see. It’s all those evil b****es’ fault.

    This is SO lame and such BS. And the only difference I see between this tired old ladainha and what several of the black male commentators here are saying is that these guys can hide their misogyny in another level of ideological BS. To them, it’s racism that’s causing black women to act in these horrible, anti-male ways.

    To these men, I have one piece of news and another piece of advice:

    1) The news: men are troubled by the new woman everywhere. Britain, China, Brazil, white, black, whatever it makes no difference. There is no group of men on the face of this earth that is currently satisfied with “their” women’s behavior and attitudes. Women are in much the same boat vis-a-vis men, but at leats their complaints are a lot more defined, pointed and easily transformed into some sort of political position.

    2) Given this, the advice: not “man up”, but get real. You are going to have to make some changes in YOUR lives and attitudes, guys because frankly, men need women more than women currently need men. As proof of this, I’ll note that none of the women posting here are bopping around YouTube and blogs passing off cheap come-on lines to the male commentators. The same can’t be said of certain of the men posting here.

    Like


  265. In other news, I just saw this story linked on Racialicious: An interracial couple was attacked by a mob of 8 people (fellow students, I’m assuming).

    http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-cleveland-teen-couple-beaten-after-school-arrests,0,3558920.story

    The guy was in the ICU, and the police didn’t even show up! I hope they catch the rest of those assh*les (so far they have 5 out of 8).

    Like


  266. “Rommel, you bastard! I read your book!”
    – General Patton

    You realize that`s Hollywood speaking there, Obsidian, not history, right?

    Like


  267. “Oh, I get death threats all the time, too, FG, for a variety of reasons.

    I think you should just come out and say who you are and forget about anonymity. If someone REALLY wanted to kill you, it’d take them an afternoon’s work on the internet to find out who you are. So protecting yourself from violence isn’t really a good excuse.

    I think you’re only fooling yourself if you think you’re truly anonymous. Those days on the internet have long come and gone.”

    Why all the interest in who I am? I’m not interested in who Natasha really is. I just wanted to demonstrate to people here that despite popular belief you often can tell if individuals are lying about themselves over the internet if you pay close enough attention to what they say.

    Like


  268. @Obsid
    Listen, this is getting tedious. You know as well as I do that the very nature of public health is a social focus and concern, and that the basis of health insurance and the like is based on actuarial stats. So, I’ll base my lifestyle on what they say, and you’re more than free to smoke two packs of cancer sticks a day, and we’ll see who’s hale and healthy two decades from now.

    None of that addresses my point, O: health stats on tobacco are not at all comparable, even metaphorically, to stats on marriage. I’ll put it as simply as I can, once again: tobacco is a fixed variable. Human biology is a more-or-less fixed variable. Neither white men no black women or their interactions are in any sense, shape, way, or form comparable.

    As for “Manning Up” thats simple: Black Women need to get the Ms. Ann fogginess out of their head. The links I’ve embedded above speak to this.

    Dude, I can`t really be bothered to scroll up and around in a bunch of links right now. You should be able to explain the Ms Ann thesis pretty succinctly, right? So dish it up.

    There are what, less than 150 HBCUs in the entire country – at least 10 million college aged Black Women? Simple math dictates that most of them will NOT attend such schools.

    Not college-aged, mind you: college women.

    Indeed, regardless as to where they went to school, the vast majority of Black Women spend more “facetime” in aggregate among White people in general, than do Black Men…

    That looks like a pretty LARGE assumption to me. Socially speaking – not simply in work terms – I`d say the U.S. is still pretty damned segregated.

    …yet the latter still marries out at a rate of what, 2 to 1? How do we explain this? Our “swirlers” decline to answer, of course.

    As for explaining this, there are a series of things that can be brought up that you don`t seem to be looking at. My point isn`t based on an attempt to explain that stat, however. My point is that personal decisions are made on a different field of reality from the abstract and very large and detailess one that you bring up with those stats.

    Like I said in the beginning, if people are making these sort of personal life decisions based on very abstract stats relating to huge populations in aggregate, they deserve what they get.

    Something tells me it won`t be happiness.

    Like


  269. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 01:34:10 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Wrt my Patton quote: so? The point isn’t historical authenticity, its about the point I was making. Please don’t act like a Clever Silly. Use some commonsense.

    As for your Rio comments, I have no problem in the least with those Men who decide that they have better chances finding love, sex or whatever elsewhere. That’s their right, and last time I heard, quite a few Women didn’t like that much at all (to wit: the IMBRA provision of the VAWA Act). So, it would seem, that Men aren’t the only ones who “need somebody”. Now is it?

    ANd if Black America is any indication, guys are indeed voting with their feet, more and more all the time. It isn’t the guys who are having Niteline specials and books written to them by famous comedians like Steve Harvey, its Black Women; nor are there NeoSoul singers like Musiq or Bilal writing op eds in major Black publications geared to Black Men bemoaning the comings and goings of Black Women, its Sistas like Jill Scott doing that wrt Black Men, one of her more recent essays, I’ve responded to on my blog. So again, I remain unconvinced by what you’ve presented.

    Holla back…

    O.

    Like


  270. LMAO (my side hurts)!

    “woohoo, black women you must listen to me, obsidian: for every 500 pairs of shoes you purchase you will suffer 1 broken heel. don’t believe me? read these stats. you must give up, man up & go without shoes. . .woohoo. obsidian has spoken.”

    LOFL! who the hell is drinking this cool-aid? the only way this guy could ever be certain that his predictions would become absolute truth is if he followed every single one of the millions of black women in the U.S. around & shoots dead every non-black man that approaches her. doesn’t sound doable to me. seriously, how many men does a woman need–one, maybe two when she’s in play-only mode. just one compatible & responsible man, when she’s ready to commit. i’ve missed more meals than men in my lifetime.

    Like


  271. Jasmin–

    who is flava’s new girl?

    Like


  272. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 02:00:28 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Please take the time out to read Steve Sailer’s article Is Love Colorblind? – its a good and provocative read. It pretty explains where I’m coming from on the matter.

    And we’ll agree to disagree hopefully without being disagreeable on the rest of the stuff…

    O.

    Like


  273. Steve Sailer????? You’ve got to be kidding.

    Like


  274. @Obid,

    First of all, let me second the “holla” thing. I don’t think that you sound like a frat boy douche, however, when you do that: more like a refugee from Jersey Shore, complete with pursed lips and mantan.

    Sorry. It’s just my reaction to a now very surbanized, whitened term.

    Regarding my comments on Rio, you seem to mistake me for someone who’s upset by sexual tourism. I am not and find the obvious hypocrisies of those who are to be amusing. My issue with those guys is that, for all their manly rhetoric, they just can’t come out and say “Hey, I like to go overseas and f*** sexy women for pay where it’s completely legal to do so and if you have a problem with that, screw you”.

    No. 9 out of 10 of those boys will whine that they’re forced to do this, either by the evil feminists, their testosterone or by a combination of the two. And they’ll give you the “testosterone” argument while they chug down 100 miligrams of Viagra with their Skol.

    It’s the whining about how everything in the world is responsible for their choice to come to Rio for P4P except, that is, they themselves: the man in the driver seat.

    So this is the BS I’m talking about, not the fact that these guys are paying for p****.

    And it reminds me very much of the whinging of certain posters here. Guys who, for example, complain about matriarchies destroying black family values and the white man’s carnal disrespect for the black woman while they grace their YouTube channel pages with pictures of open-legged black women in skimpy pink panties. I mean, again, if that’s your bag, go for it. But please…. PLEASE… spare us the soliloquies about how women “force” you to be this way.

    Like


  275. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 02:10:35 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Chuck,
    Well, I suppose its fitting on this day, to say that the old saying must be true – politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows.

    Hmm?😉

    I do agree – my recent post back at my blog addressing you and Mr. Jevets did indeed “lump” you two together, but clearly, you each had differing bones of contention to pick with me:

    Mr. Jevets is clearly agititated by my stinging commentary – like I said to Witchsista earlier, the only dog that yelps is the one that gets hit byt the stone you toss over the fence. That, plus he does the Sir Ivanhoe thing to the max, now don’t he? Bless his heart.

    And you, well…I gotta give the Natasha her due – she’s right when she says that you got all hot and bothered by what I said because in your mind, I was breaking on White Guys. So, in a sense, you were doing a Sir Ivanhoe thing too – a kind of white knighting for White Guys, LOL.

    Anyway, biggups for the assist, Man. It’s good to know that we can vociferously disagree yet still adhere to some code of honor.

    Lord knows gals like Natasha and Jasmin don’t…

    O.

    Like


  276. Obsidian, I’ve read a lot of Steve Sailer’s stuff. I’m an anthropology professor on a life sciences campus where I teach race, culture and biology and gender and biology classes. Now I know that you might find this arrogant and elitist, but I have read an awful lot of bleeding edge research regarding the biology of race and gender and, to make a long story short, believe me when I telll you, as a professional who’s paid to know this stuff, the Sailer has a much better grasp of rhetoric than he does of either biology or the scientific method.

    So, in short, you lose a hell of a lot of credibility with me when you cite Sailer as some sort of primary source for your arguments. I can see why he’d be impressive to laymen who know little about biology and want a reasonable-seeming hypothesis to justify their prejudices, but please…. The guy’s cooking on Jupiter. He’s race/gender biology’s equivalent of creationist science.

    Like


  277. We just had an earthquake in Serbia. Is this because of this thread?😛

    Like


  278. Now let me ask you this, Obsidian, since you seem to have these stats at your fingertips and so enjoy Steve Sailer…

    What percentage of black women WITH GRADUATE DEGREES are married to white men?

    Hmmm…?

    Like


  279. Also, can we have an age breakdown on out-marriage? I`d bet plenty more YOUNGER black women are out-marrying than older black women.

    Like


  280. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 02:29:30 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Based on all the info we have, the percentage of Black Women who “swirl” do indeed tend to come from the cohort you mentioned, that of graduate degreed Black Women. Still though, they only make up roughly a third of all Black/White IR marrieds, and considerably less than AF/Wm couples.

    Then there’s the fact that the majority of Black Women, regardless of educational background, still desire Black males as mates. Again, note all the tv specials, Essence magazine articles, Oprah-type gatherings of the Sistas, etc, et al. The list is virtually endless.

    There’s a real reckoning that the current cohort of Sistas must come to grips with, and those who do will have a much better shot at happiness than those who don’t.

    As for the Rio thing, maybe it’s a racial thing, but I happen to know quite a few Black Men who travel there and have been doing so for some years now, and they’ve made no bones about why they choose to go there – its for the Women. In their view, they’re hotter, friendlier and more DTF, than are Sistas or for that matter, White Women here. So, I really have trouble relating to what you’re saying about what I assume must be White or possibly Asian, at least nominally middle class guys who sit in cubicles all day? Where I come from, Brothas don’t mince words.

    “Holla back” isn’t douche at all, it’s something Black folk have been saying for many, many years. I have no intention of changing it in the least. *shrugs*

    Holla back😉

    O.

    Like


  281. These are just two of the cross-factors that need to be taken into consideration when making one`s statistical analysis, but you and Evil Stevie are curiously silent on these matters.

    I wonder why?

    I`d bet 100 USD to any charity you care to name that out-marriage rates for young black women with graduate degrees are significantly higher than older black women with no college degree at all.

    Also, you`d be wise to take a look at some of the work done on gender and sexual morality in Latin America.

    One of the things discovered is that women of color (brown or black) tend to generally be more sexually conservative than white women across the board. This is because, up to very few years ago, women who took sexual risks were much more heavily punished than men. And black/brown women were MUCH more heavily punished than white women.

    For people who are deprived of formal, jural rights, custom has always been the best defence. Marriage falls into this field.

    From personal experience, I know that Ana Paula gets FAR more s*** for being with me than a similarly qualified black man would get for being with a white woman.

    During the year we spent in DC, we had several run-ins with people who gave Ana grief because she was with me. In EVERY case these were black men. In one memorable case, a dude gave her crap after I came in to a bar when he had been trying to pick her up. A half hour later, he was chatting up a blond girl. When Ana called him out on that, he looked shocked and then tried to laugh it off with a “Well, you caught me”.

    Put very simply, the consequences of a black woman being with a white man were pretty damned bad for a long, long time. Worse than they were for black men.

    But times do change. My bet is that BW;WM unions sky rocket in the next few decades.

    Like


  282. Lot of damage Mira, or is everyone OK? How are you and your family doing?

    Like


  283. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 02:44:07 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Wrt Sailer: hey, that’s cool. Sailer never claimed to be a scientist, and on a number of matters what he writes makes the most parsimonious sense to me. *shrugs*

    As for feminism and whatnot, I say that Men have every right to determine for themselves what are in their own best interests. It seems that a not insignificant number of Men seem to desire more submissive Women who will defer to them. If American Women don’t wish to do this, that’s their right, just as its the right of these Men to go elsewhere to find what they want. And while it would be nice if they were brutally honest about their so doing and motivations, last time I checked, they don’t have to explain themselves to anyone. The simple truth of the matter is that the feminist lobby doesn’t want prostitution to be legal here, and have formed a powerful alliance with the social conservatives in this regard. Same deal with mail order brides, what I discussed in my previous comment wrt IMBRA. American Women, mostly White, want to limit American Men’s ability to access Women overseas, and thbis is understandable; of course, when it comes to Black Women their ability to prevent their Men from “outsourcing” is virtually nil, and the stats back this up.

    I have no idea what you’re talking about wrt YouTube and the like, so it has no meaning to me.

    O.

    Like


  284. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 02:48:58 theobsidianfiles

    Thad,
    Please name me all the American Black Women who’ve been lynched by angry mobs of Black Men for daring to even look at White Men? I’ll wait.

    O.

    Like


  285. @Obsid
    Still though, they only make up roughly a third of all Black/White IR marrieds, and considerably less than AF/Wm couples.

    Great, so we’ve now conclusively proven that there HAVE to be other factors than race at work here, right?😀

    And, furthermore, we’ve also proven that those factors seem to be changing over time – as time goes on, more black women do this.

    So it seems to me that there is at least another way of looking at swirling, from a statistical viewpoint: if you’re a young black woman with a high degree of education, you might be getting on the ground floor of a new groundswell.😀

    Then there’s the fact that the majority of Black Women, regardless of educational background, still desire Black males as mates.

    And why shouldn’t they, given the notoriously conservative bent of what gets taught to black women regarding love and sex?

    But again, this is changing with the younger generation and with higher levels of education. So it seems, once again, that this isn’t some eternal ür-characteristic of black women.

    There’s a real reckoning that the current cohort of Sistas must come to grips with, and those who do will have a much better shot at happiness than those who don’t.

    Yeah, and that reckoning may be “given persistent sexism, you may be better off alone or marrying outside the race”. Now, I wouldn’t hoist the swirlers’ banner and say that’s a cure-all for black women’s problems. But on an individual level, it’s likely to be as much of solution – or not – as what you’re proposing which, as far as I can see it, is that women should resign themselves to being with men who make them unhappy.

    Me, personally? I think women should sleep around and date around ALOT until they’ve killed their own personal demons that sexism has emplaced within them: to wit, that a lifemate is essential to a woman’s happiness. Paradoxically, after they’ve done that, I think the chance is good that they’ll find someone to settle down with.

    I think you are right about women having unrealistic expectations. I just don’t agree that these are any worse among black women than white women or that they are any worse than the expectations among men regarding women.

    As for the Rio thing, maybe it’s a racial thing, but I happen to know quite a few Black Men who travel there and have been doing so for some years now, and they’ve made no bones about why they choose to go there – its for the Women. In their view, they’re hotter, friendlier and more DTF, than are Sistas or for that matter, White Women here. So, I really have trouble relating to what you’re saying about what I assume must be White or possibly Asian, at least nominally middle class guys who sit in cubicles all day? Where I come from, Brothas don’t mince words.

    You forget that I SEE the women these men hang with on a daily basis and no, they are not, neither. Sorry. The “hot Brazilian chick” is a myth. the one possible thing in their favor is that prostitution isn’t illegal here, so we don’t get quite as desperate a crowd of women doing it as in the States. That means that their 300 dollars is probably going to buy a “hotter” trick than it would back home.

    And that’s about it.

    And these guys have HUGE justifications for what they do that are just as bad as the white guys’. “Oh”, they say, “It’s the attitude”, just like the white guys. Well dude, I hate to pop your little Fantasy Island tropical paradise bubble, but you’re offering that woman a monthly minimum wage’s worth of cash for one night in the sack. Do you think that just possibly you’d get a better “attitude” from American hookers if you were willing to pay them, say, 1000 USD per trick? Or from any American woman in general (provided you camouflage the cash as a gift)?

    Money talks and bulls*** walks and that’s true in Rio or NYC. These guys seem to forget that.

    Jewell Woods has a pretty good book on this: “Don’t Blame it on Rio”. In it, you can see a bunch of black men’s strange justifications for what they do. Not ONCE does a guy say “Hey, I do it for the same reasons a dog licks his balls: because I can.”

    Like


  286. It seems that a not insignificant number of Men seem to desire more submissive Women who will defer to them. If American Women don’t wish to do this, that’s their right, just as its the right of these Men to go elsewhere to find what they want.

    The problem is, this is a world-wide issue. Brazilian women are not noticeably more “submissive” than American women, but many black and white gringos with little to no Portuguese whose sum total of experience in Brazil has been two weeks cruising Copa clip joints will swear on a stack of bibles that they are.

    Do yourself a favor and listen to us, the Brazilian men who are their husbands, sons, brothers, fathers, uncles and cousins of these women: they aren’t. Really, truly and seriously. And I’m pretty sure much the same thing can be said anywhere in the world. Furthermore, the kind of woman who’s willing to make a long roll of the dice and marry a foriegner, cutting ehrself off from home and family, is REALLY not the submissive type.

    And while it would be nice if they were brutally honest about their so doing and motivations, last time I checked, they don’t have to explain themselves to anyone.

    No, they don’t. But the last time I checked, being honest with yourself about why you’re getting into a relationship is pretty much a sin qua non of a successful relationship. So when I see gringos defending these sorts of loopy beliefs, offering in fac to fight over them, I’m entitled to have my doubts.

    The simple truth of the matter is that the feminist lobby doesn’t want prostitution to be legal here, and have formed a powerful alliance with the social conservatives in this regard.

    It is not at all that simple and you should well know it. If feminists were prostitutes’ only foes, they’d be happy hookers indeed. The xtian right is far more to blame for the current prostituion laws in the U.S. and their maintenance.

    Like


  287. Please name me all the American Black Women who’ve been lynched by angry mobs of Black Men for daring to even look at White Men? I’ll wait.

    How about “adjudged whores and raped”, Obsidian?

    Wanna reckon that it’s FAR many more than the number of lynched black men?

    Like


  288. To those commentators claiming that white men aren’t attracted to black women and vice versa, that is a really ridiculous statement. We are all human beings and are not born to like a certain color. Maybe society will shape us, our family telling us who they approve, and/or a lot of people grow to just naturally like a certain look, but when someone finds someone else attractive, they are attractive no matter what race or ethnicity they are. How they approach each other (or the lack of approaching one another) is highly due to societal factors.

    Like


  289. 3,446 lynchings of blacks and 1,297 lynchings of whites recorded in the U.S. by the Tuskeegee Institute between 1882 and 1968, correct?

    How many rapes of black women by white men during that time do you reckon? I guaranteee that it was far more.

    And worse: if you were a black guy who looked at a white woman, blacks weren’t going to kill you for it. If you were a black woman who looked at a white man, however, you were “trash”. Your own community would deny you and ostracize you. You could quite easily be judged a “good for nothing whore” and raped or be beaten by your own neighbors, maybe even your own family.

    You name me all the black man lynched by black people for looking at white women, Obsidian.

    Like


  290. “woah…. have fun with that abagond!”

    LOL, yes. Disturbing.

    Mira, lmbo! I hope you are o.k.

    The bottom line is – why all the uproar? Just find someone who there is a mutual attraction, who you are happy being with and someone who loves you.

    I think too many black women wait for a black man (or at least they did) instead of being open. It’s good that more black women are exploring their options which lead to a happy relationship.

    Like


  291. Mira,

    I second what Thad and Islandgirl said. I don’t do earthquakes, lol.

    Islandgirl,

    Pretty much. I don’t think most (regular) people care who other people date. Wanna date a 5’7” Black man with killer abs? Good for you. Wanna date a 6’5” White guy with great teeth (a good dentist is always a plus in my book ;-))? Knock yourself out. It’s best not to wait/limit yourself to any one group (especially if you’re basing it on superficial characteristics), but if you do, you can’t be mad if he limits himself to a group that doesn’t include you. Seems like common sense, but maybe we are just super-duper-smart or something.:-)

    Like


  292. Temple,

    I Googled, to no avail. But he has 7 kids and 2 grandkids, so maybe he’s too busy!:-)

    Like


  293. The bottom line is – why all the uproar? Just find someone who there is a mutual attraction, who you are happy being with and someone who loves you.

    Exactly, its really that simple.

    My problem with you Obsidian is this: You are arguing under the premise that the BW present view “swirl” as something ALL/MAJORITY of BW should do. Not true. However, we are saying if you are attracted to non-black men and the attraction is reciprocated why not go for it? I don’t think BW in this day and age shouldn’t bear the burden of history when choosing a potential mate. Nobody should. The fact that historically WM(or non-BM) and BW don’t get together as WM/AW or the fact that BM got lynched for looking at WW should not stop individual BW and BM that want to date/marry out from doing so. This a shaming tactic in my eyes..bringing up lynching, raping, whipping, telling BW/BM “Your father/mother is black, what you hate your father/mother?” ect only serves to shame people into doing what you(not you specifically) want them to do.

    Nobody here has stated implicitly or explicitly that BW en mass need to date WM. We all know for the most part BW aren’t interested in WM or interracial. But for the ones that are in to it, why not?

    In my opinion IRR isn’t something that shouldn’t be promoted. Either you are attracted to other races or not. The same way blacks shouldn’t be shamed into dating each other if they really want to date out; blacks that are holding out of their counterparts shouldn’t be pushed to do IRR.

    Like


  294. About the earthquake: as far as I know, there was no serious damage (at least not where I live). But we are not used to earthquakes and I must admit it scared me!

    Like


  295. Mira,

    Im glad to hear that you guys are ok over there. Thank goodness there was no serious damage. And you have internet, YAY!:-)

    Like


  296. Who are all these black women that are interested in white men? Only on the internet do I find this phenomenon. In real life the majority of black women prefer black men. (And black men prefer black women) Don’t get it twisted. When I was in school black girls who liked white boys were clowned and talked about badly. For a black girl to date a white guy, that pretty much deaded her reputation.

    Don’t get me wrong I’ve seen a few white guys that I found attractive but to go out of my way and try to chase one down and date one? Chile please lmao I was raised better than that. I like black men first, then Latinos, then everyone else comes in last. I do not trust the intentions of white men that try and hit on me, I always wonder if they have some latent racist views or some master-slave fantasy they want to act out. I have been around too many white people that got comfortable with me and ended up either saying some slick racist comment that they didn’t think was racist, or just showing me their true colors that I could honestly probably never date one and I don’t see how any black woman who is not a self hating sell out could either.

    I did briefly date a white guy in high school but he was one of those white guys that wanted to be black, and even then we never hooked up so it doesn’t count lol.

    Also, now that I’m on the subject, can someone put the word out and tell these old white men 35+ to stop hitting on young black women? I am 22 and there isn’t a damn thing you can do for me, I don’t care if you are a millionaire you are not my type and will never get it so stop it before I call Jesse Jackson on your bitch ass lmao. Seriously that mess is nasty and insulting.

    Like


  297. Y,

    Someone upthread (Witchsistah, I think) noted that if people have a personal issue with something, their focused attention on it is what provides a skewed perception, not anything the “something” has done. It kind of makes me think of hair–walk around with natural hair and some people act like you’re forcing them to big chop immediately, or else they’ll have to live in fear of the Natural Hair N*zis. People who see an afro/afro-wearing woman as some kind of assault on their love for weaves/wigs/relaxers have some personal issues, but I guess it makes them feel better to accuse you of provoking those issues (by existing) rather than examining their own self-esteem.

    Like


  298. ^^^Ditto. According to the Jerusalem post, Kraljevo was hit the hardest–it was a 5.3! (I’ve never experienced a “real” earthquake, but that sounds serious!)

    Like


  299. You know as a man who has a beautifull child with a stunning black woman I have to say something. She has no role model for which to gage me. Her father was not around. Her momma was on crack. Her sister has two kids & the daddies are not around. In her family the daddies are never in the picture and the sad thing is to her this is OK. She is hopeless and will never see the light. What is weird is that in the small town where we live she is well known but everyone says she is just not a momma don’t hold your breath waiting for her to come home. If I was a black man { I am white } I wonder ? Oh the judge gave me the kid she was smoking crack that day !!

    Like


  300. @ Steve

    Yikes! Your sister-in-law sounds like Britney Spears!!!! I honestly wish you the best, but that sounds like a pretty dysfunctional family you’ve married into there.

    Like


  301. Bronze Sparkles:

    “Don’t get me wrong I’ve seen a few white guys that I found attractive but to go out of my way and try to chase one down and date one? Chile please lmao I was raised better than that. I like black men first, then Latinos, then everyone else comes in last. I do not trust the intentions of white men that try and hit on me, I always wonder if they have some latent racist views or some master-slave fantasy they want to act out. I have been around too many white people that got comfortable with me and ended up either saying some slick racist comment that they didn’t think was racist, or just showing me their true colors that I could honestly probably never date one and I don’t see how any black woman who is not a self hating sell out could either”

    I agree w/ SOME of the things you said…I prefer bm too…I tried to get into the interracial thing like a couple years ago…generally, it’s just no my thing. Yeah, some wm are okay, but culturally i just can’t vibe with them…it’s just not for me…I feel uncomfortable 9/10 with white men and I feel like I can’t talk to them about certain things, like what it’s like to be black or experience racism because they are unwilling to try to understand. I too have had the awkward moments where once a white guy gets comfortable around you and their unrealized racism will start to come out…

    I also notice how some wm will categorize a bw who does not fit the bw stereotype as being an exception to the rule,and thus not “really black” but chocolate-dipped white girl (and yes i have heard wm use that term before) I just feel like I can relate better to most bm and I am more comfortable w/ them…I feel like I can trust them more and I have a bond w/ them largely due to the fact that we have this shared history in the US…
    whereas the history between bw/wm has been nothing but heartache and disaster for the most part…

    Like


  302. * i should say the “interracial thing” i mean I just tried to open myself up to different ethnicities/cultures and I just prefer to be w/ my own cultural/ethnic group that’s just what it is..

    Like


  303. Peanut, Bronze Sparkles,

    You all don’t want to date IRR. That’s fine. It’s not like anyone here can do anything about your decision. It’s not like we can make you date a non-BM.

    But there is no need to call those of us who do “self-haters.” There is no need for name-calling, especially a whole group of people you don’t even know. You’re obviously fine with your decision as we are with ours. We don’t have to put down others to feel good about it either. No need for you to do so.

    Like


  304. when did i say bw who date outside the race were self-haters…i did not say that…that is why i said i agreed w/ SOME of what bronze said…i don’t care what other bw do, i’m talking about myself

    Like


  305. also i should note in my posts i am only talking about the wm that I have encountered…I’m not speaking about all wm and never did i say ALL wm were this way or that way. I am not COMPLETELY against dating a white or non-bm, if i met someone who i felt comfortable around and someone who atleast TRIED to understand and listen to my views when it comes to the experiences i’ve had as a bp…then i’m sure i could get into a relationship w/ that person, but in general the white men WHO I HAVE ENCOUNTERED have been disrespectful to bp (whether intentional or not) and when I try to confront them about their racism or disrespect, most of the guys would get offended and I can’t be around someone who I can’t even talk to or feel comfortable with…that is just MY EXPERIENCE

    i am not speaking about or for anyone, i’m speaking about myself and my limited experiences…I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL WM AND I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL BW.

    Like


  306. My question is this: who cares who is dating who? I mean, whose business it is? As long as you don’t date animals or kids (underaged) and do not hurt anybody, I don’t care. Go out and have fun with whom ever you want! It’s not my business, nor it is yours with whom I go.

    If a black man wants to get together with a white woman, hell why not? If a black woman wants to go out with a white guy, who cares? Main thing is that they would be happy, right?

    It looks to me that americans, US citizens that is, have so much this race crap in their heads that they can’t see anybody without somekind of a race tag. I mean: she’s half cherokee-yoruba-irish-norwegian latino and he is three quarters mexican-lakota-german-italian-masai-swedish russian… Hallooo??? Doesn’t that sound ridicilous to anybody else?

    If a man and a woman, or woman and a woman, or man and man, like eachother and want to be together, why not? Who they are hurting? If they are in love, let them be. Whats that got to do with you? it is their business. If they want to get married, good for them. If they want to have kids, great. Who cares what color the kids are?? These are their kids!

    Why this is so friggin difficult? Theres an very acient saying that comes to mind and I like to think that some commenters here should apply it in their lives: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

    Thank you.😀

    Like


  307. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 12:15:51 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Thad,
    I see you like to make life as complicated as humanly possible, LOL. Alrighty then, I’m more than happy to entertain you; replies below:

    @Obsid
    “Still though, they only make up roughly a third of all Black/White IR marrieds, and considerably less than AF/Wm couples.”

    T: Great, so we’ve now conclusively proven that there HAVE to be other factors than race at work here, right?

    And, furthermore, we’ve also proven that those factors seem to be changing over time – as time goes on, more black women do this.

    So it seems to me that there is at least another way of looking at swirling, from a statistical viewpoint: if you’re a young black woman with a high degree of education, you might be getting on the ground floor of a new groundswell.

    O: Yes, that’s true; however, its also true, that you’re just not that into Jared or Brett, and have a thing for Rashid or KeyShawn. Problem is, well, they’re a plumber and don’t really give a hoot about Masterpiece Theater. So, instead of lowering their expectations as to what you’ve been trained to expect out of life and focus on what’s actually important (like character, work ethic, loyalty, etc et al), you instead join the legion of young Sistas who bemoan their status as single Sistas who can’t find a “good man”. Yawn.

    “Then there’s the fact that the majority of Black Women, regardless of educational background, still desire Black males as mates.”

    T: And why shouldn’t they, given the notoriously conservative bent of what gets taught to black women regarding love and sex?

    O: LOL. You do realize that most Black kids are born out of wedlock and have been for decades, right? Very good job those “conservative values” are doing! How about this one, Thad: *whispering* Sistas PREFER Brothas as mates? And don’t, as a group, desire White guys as mates? How about that, Thad? *shrugs*

    T: But again, this is changing with the younger generation and with higher levels of education. So it seems, once again, that this isn’t some eternal ür-characteristic of black women.

    O: Time will tell, indeed. I’ve learned to always question the dangerous assumptions of the prevailing wisdom. So again, we’ll see.

    “There’s a real reckoning that the current cohort of Sistas must come to grips with, and those who do will have a much better shot at happiness than those who don’t.”

    T: Yeah, and that reckoning may be “given persistent sexism, you may be better off alone or marrying outside the race”. Now, I wouldn’t hoist the swirlers’ banner and say that’s a cure-all for black women’s problems. But on an individual level, it’s likely to be as much of solution – or not – as what you’re proposing which, as far as I can see it, is that women should resign themselves to being with men who make them unhappy.

    O: Again, we agree on the “swirling bannerism” thing here, and really that’s all that matters given the current focus of the discussion. Having said that though, again, I’ve never advocated that Black Women get with Black Men who make them unhappy. Again, for the umpteenth time, I’ve addressed this in exhaustive detail over at my blog.

    T: Me, personally? I think women should sleep around and date around ALOT until they’ve killed their own personal demons that sexism has emplaced within them: to wit, that a lifemate is essential to a woman’s happiness. Paradoxically, after they’ve done that, I think the chance is good that they’ll find someone to settle down with.

    O: I don’t disagree with this. However, the flipside of that is that once a guy finds out she done had the national football team up in her, he will most likely decline, present company included, and I think he should have every right to do so, without comment or judgment of any kind. Cool?

    T: I think you are right about women having unrealistic expectations. I just don’t agree that these are any worse among black women than white women or that they are any worse than the expectations among men regarding women.

    O: They are worse because there are fewer Brothas who have or desire to acquire, the accoutrements this society says one must or should have, and that matters to a subset of Sistas. I’ve addressed all this back on my blog, but since you’ve a problem with scrolling upthread or doing a few quick mouse clicks, I suppose you’ll never see it…

    “As for the Rio thing, maybe it’s a racial thing, but I happen to know quite a few Black Men who travel there and have been doing so for some years now, and they’ve made no bones about why they choose to go there – its for the Women. In their view, they’re hotter, friendlier and more DTF, than are Sistas or for that matter, White Women here. So, I really have trouble relating to what you’re saying about what I assume must be White or possibly Asian, at least nominally middle class guys who sit in cubicles all day? Where I come from, Brothas don’t mince words.”

    T: You forget that I SEE the women these men hang with on a daily basis and no, they are not, neither. Sorry. The “hot Brazilian chick” is a myth. the one possible thing in their favor is that prostitution isn’t illegal here, so we don’t get quite as desperate a crowd of women doing it as in the States. That means that their 300 dollars is probably going to buy a “hotter” trick than it would back home.

    And that’s about it.

    O: Well, YOU don’t know the Brothas I know, nor have seen the pics and videos they’ve shot while there, so I guess we’ll just agree to disagree on this one. OK?

    T: And these guys have HUGE justifications for what they do that are just as bad as the white guys’. “Oh”, they say, “It’s the attitude”, just like the white guys. Well dude, I hate to pop your little Fantasy Island tropical paradise bubble, but you’re offering that woman a monthly minimum wage’s worth of cash for one night in the sack. Do you think that just possibly you’d get a better “attitude” from American hookers if you were willing to pay them, say, 1000 USD per trick? Or from any American woman in general (provided you camouflage the cash as a gift)?

    O: LOL. I couldn’t care less one way or another because I’m quite content with American Sistas – but just to humor you, last time I checked, prostitution was illegal in the USA – a major consideration I would imagine for many American chaps. Besides, the bottomline is that if the trick’s happy and the John’s happy, what’s the harm here? *shrugs*

    T: Money talks and bulls*** walks and that’s true in Rio or NYC. These guys seem to forget that.

    O: Yea, but Thad, why do they have to justify themselves to YOU or ANYONE ELSE? I mean, let’s be brutally honest here, how many of us “keep it real”? Do you tell your boss what you really think of him/her, even if they are indeed a jerk? Come on. Yea, you make a good point, but…so what? The bottomline is, they’re exercising their right to go where they think better action is, end of. What’s so wrong about that, Thad?

    Jewell Woods has a pretty good book on this: “Don’t Blame it on Rio”. In it, you can see a bunch of black men’s strange justifications for what they do. Not ONCE does a guy say “Hey, I do it for the same reasons a dog licks his balls: because I can.”

    O: Again – why is it so necessary that these Man explain themselves to anyone, Thad? It seems that you’re very upset about this, and it need not be so. The bottomline is that the guys are voting with their feet, something quite a few American Women DON’T LIKE, BUT CAN’T STOP. They should learn to accept the tradeoff.

    *shrugs*

    O.

    Like


  308. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 12:31:36 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Rejan,
    Replies below:

    R: I’m attending college to learn first and foremost and also to help my community by becoming a doctor. And also to do cool shit like dissect things! Meeting a man is the farthest thing from my mind. If most people went to college for that I think the rate of marriage in general would be higher, not lower than it currently is, since more people attend college now than they did previously. I’m sorry “women” as you said, but the same thing still applies. You sound old fashioned. What the fuck does me wanting to become a doctor have to do with me finding a man? Maybe people went to college for that back when you was a youngin but college has changed alot since you came up.

    O: I think you’re projecting quite a lot onto me, LOL. For one thing, quite a few Sistas go to college with the ancillary hope of meeting someone as a “suitable” mate. Nor is this so unusual, White folk have been and continue to do this. Checkout the blog Hooking Up Smart for more on this point. For my part, I’ve never taken a position one way or another on that, or marriage; i”m neither against or for it. What I will say is that, when it comes to African Americans, the data seems quite clear: kids in fatherless homes do worse of in life than those who aren’t. *shrugs*

    R: For one thing getting married makes alot of people ineligible for alot of financial aid since marriage means you are no longer a dependent in the law’s eyes doesn’t matter how young you are. I know someone who got divorced just so that she could get into a pharmacy graduate program. That’s the reason my sister who is currently getting the MD and PHd didn’t marry her daughter’s father. Sexism in the workplace means less married women get into graduate programs for certain professions. For something like Nursing it’s fine but take a field like bioengineering and see how hard it is to get into pharmacy school. Even with good grades because they think that you can’t compete academically with responsibilities outside your job.

    O: All things come with tradeoffs. Men have had to make do with this unfortunate fact of life for centuries, now its the Ladies’ turn. *shrugs*

    R: I agree that culture has to be taken into account, I think,and I could be wrong, that Asian and Whites in general (if we are talking America strictly) regardless of their sex have higher rates of marriage than the black community does. I know more of what you would call common laws than I do married couples, especially down south, young and old. I don’t think that it’s for economic reasons alone just differences in culture. Marriage is more important in those cultures, whereas in black American culture it’s still important but not necessary for cohabiting with someone and starting a family. Racism made any type of authority in black life something to be avoided, not welcomed.

    O: I have trouble citing “racism as the reason as to why so much OOW births take place in Black America, or why marital rates at present barely reach 50%, because as Skip Gates shows in his PBS specials, the first thing Black folk did coming out from under Slavery, was get married. High marital rates persisted in Black America until the 1960s, comcomitant with the Great Society programs, essentially pushing Black Men out of the picture via welfare, Affirmative Action and the like. Black Women have indeed come up the “winner” of the Civil Rights and Women’s movements over Black Men – but it’s come at a price. A true Faustian Bargain, if you will.

    Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony.

    Hmm.

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  309. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 12:41:30 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Y,
    Replies below:

    Y: My problem with you Obsidian is this: You are arguing under the premise that the BW present view “swirl” as something ALL/MAJORITY of BW should do. Not true.

    O: Really, now?

    http://jasminllenadegracia.blogspot.com/2010/09/black-love-does-not-exist.html

    Please explain?

    Y: However, we are saying if you are attracted to non-black men and the attraction is reciprocated why not go for it? I don’t think BW in this day and age shouldn’t bear the burden of history when choosing a potential mate. Nobody should. The fact that historically WM(or non-BM) and BW don’t get together as WM/AW or the fact that BM got lynched for looking at WW should not stop individual BW and BM that want to date/marry out from doing so. This a shaming tactic in my eyes..bringing up lynching, raping, whipping, telling BW/BM “Your father/mother is black, what you hate your father/mother?” ect only serves to shame people into doing what you(not you specifically) want them to do.

    O: rubbish, it’s bringing up some hard questions for those (Jasmin) who advocate Black Women “broaden their horizons”. OK then, so we have some questions for you then, in light of that. again, see how they run…

    Y: Nobody here has stated implicitly or explicitly that BW en mass need to date WM. We all know for the most part BW aren’t interested in WM or interracial. But for the ones that are in to it, why not?

    O: Again:

    About Me

    Jasmin
    “Bossip afficionado, blogging about the realities of swirl and pop culture”

    Taken from her frontpage. She says she wants to discuss the “realities of swirl” then punks out of questions like the ones Abagond and I have raised in this discussion. Funny, that…

    Y: In my opinion IRR isn’t something that shouldn’t be promoted. Either you are attracted to other races or not. The same way blacks shouldn’t be shamed into dating each other if they really want to date out; blacks that are holding out of their counterparts shouldn’t be pushed to do IRR.

    O: That’s fair enough; now go run tell Jasmin that…

    O.

    Like


  310. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 12:49:15 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Thad,
    Replies below:

    T: 3,446 lynchings of blacks and 1,297 lynchings of whites recorded in the U.S. by the Tuskeegee Institute between 1882 and 1968, correct?

    O: Something like that.

    T: How many rapes of black women by white men during that time do you reckon? I guaranteee that it was far more.

    O: Stats, please?

    T: And worse: if you were a black guy who looked at a white woman, blacks weren’t going to kill you for it. If you were a black woman who looked at a white man, however, you were “trash”. Your own community would deny you and ostracize you. You could quite easily be judged a “good for nothing whore” and raped or be beaten by your own neighbors, maybe even your own family.

    O: Please read the following:

    http://www.essence.com/relationships/commentary_3/commentary_jill_scott_talks_interracial.php

    And holla back. Black Men who “opt out” are hardly seen as paragons of virtue in Black America, Thad, and truth be told, as the article above attests to, if there’s one group in Black America who is dead set against “swirling” its SISTAS.

    So…you were saying?

    T: You name me all the black man lynched by black people for looking at white women, Obsidian.

    O: That’s not my point and you know it. You knew exactly what I was saying: that, despite the very real threat of DEATH, Black Men still managed to MARRY WHITE WOMEN AT A RATE OF THREE TO ONE to what Black Women/White Men do. And Black Women didn’t face the threat of death, from Whites or Blacks. How are we to explain this, Thad? could it be possible that Black Women and White Men, in aggregate, simply don’t dig each other like that? I think so, but since you like to make everything more complicated than it needs to be, I suppose we’ll go around the mulberry bush a few more times before its all said and done…

    LOL

    O.

    Like


  311. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 13:12:55 Menelik Charles

    @Bronze Sparkle,

    you’re what is proudly, and traditionally, known over in the states as a ‘Race Woman’. Which is:

    1) the kind of sister who really kept the African-American family together during its darkest days;

    2) the kind of sister who believes in social integration but NOT assimilation into racial oblivion;

    3) the kind of sister who can see clearly through the smokes and mirrors of white supremacy, and call it out;

    4) the kind of sister who knows what it is to be loved by a Black man because she was (hopefully) loved by her father;

    5) the kind of sister whose mother (hopefully) knew how to raise sons and daughters to be Men & Women;

    6) the kind of sister who puts her race first (out of necessity) in a world in which our race is put last;

    7) the kind of sister whose ‘race memory’ will never allow our sworn enemies to come between her and and her man;

    8) the kind of sister who treats African-American history as a ‘race lesson’ and not some scurrilous rumour.

    9) the kind of sister who (like Jews) says ‘Never Again!’ and actually means it;

    10) the kind of sister who believes in God, culture, and family NOT someone else’s G*d, culture, and family.

    Bronze Sparkle,

    shine on, sister friend, for you’re the kind of sister who can be anything, and do anything, she desires but will always be proudly and defiantly Black while other so-called ‘sisters’ mock, taunt, those Black men whose only ‘crime’ is to desire only to be with women of your physical appearance.

    The same women who complain about white men not finding them attractive (which is an outright lie which my book proves) without giving even the merest suggestion that Black women, in the main, do NOT find white men attractive because they are perceived to lack thorough-going masculine physical and behavioural traits.

    You, I presume, see through the perverse irony of their words which is why they’ll read what you say, and pass quickly by. You’re a dissenting sister among racial assimilationists who subscribe to the mantra: ‘if you’re white, you’re alright!’ because being Black and female to them has proven to be all wrong!

    They’re the ones who privately elevate the likes of Halle Berry and Beyonce above themselves; they’re the ones who seek to rid their off-springs of their much-maligned melanin; they’re the ones to whom Ghettogaggers and Monster’s Ball is merely a variation of their own sexual practices with white men; they’re the ones for whom the series ‘Roots’ is an introduction to a single family rather than a story we all share; they’re the ones who’ll stand grinning inanely with their white partners at Black social gatherings because they’re no longer part of its inner circle; they’re the ones who will wince on seeing a cute brotha with a white gal but perk up when seeing the reverse: they’re the ones for whom hypocrisy runs through them like blood through veins!

    They are neither for Malcolm nor King; Farrakhan nor Obama but instead advance an unspoken ‘womanism’ whose assimilationist, anti-Black family, objectives were thought-out in a CIA round table meeting sometime during the 1970s, and launched by the father-hating (yes, I’ve read here books, and I provide an analysis of her life and works in my book) Alice Walker.

    Yeah, the women on here will let you pass, as though invisible, because you’re a Black woman. Not so a Black man. He needs to be put in his place like days of old. He’s the scapegoat upon which they (and whites) must heap all of their sins. Only then can they sit together as one in a white supremacy masquerading as multi-culturalism, racial harmony, free will etc.

    Thank you for keeping it real in an arena in which intellectual dishonesty; historical amnesia; racial self-loathing; and rampant daddy issues forms the basis for all, and every, dispute between the likes of Bro Obsidian and the “swirling”, G*d-fearing, self-loathing, racial assimilationists.

    You sister Bronze Sparkle, remind us that certain women on here are a minority amongst Black women. A troublesome minority it has to be said but a minority all the same. The sooner they shut up, move to the white suburbs, become soccer moms, and go about their daily business without ever mentioning the words ‘Black, men, women and children’ in any sequence the better for us all!

    Thanks again.

    Your Bro Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  312. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 13:16:48 Patricia Kayden

    No time to read all of the posts, but I can say from my own observations that the White men who marry Black women vary as widely as the Black men who marry White women.

    It is not just nerds or some other stereotypical White man.

    It’s always interesting to see how Black men, who marry out the most, get their panties knotted up when the topic of Black women marrying out is discussed.

    As far as I am concerned, Black men should have zero interest in who Black women marry, since the rate of Black marriages is low and Black men marry out 22%.

    Just my 2 cents. Y’all have a great day!

    Like


  313. Can’t hit all the good comments above right now because I’m out in Macaé and need to get my class notes together before the students get here.

    I will say one thing about stats, though, or rather reiterate it: people who try to make deterministic predictions of complex human social behavior in large-scale populations based on ONE social variable (race, for example) have no clue as to how stats work or what science is.

    Age, education, class, region of residence… all these things are going to affect marriage patterns as well as race. To make believe that there is such a thing as “THE Black Woman” or “THE White Man” based on statistics is to engage in what Alfred North Whitehead called “the fallacy of misplaced concreteness”. Social life is real: stats are simply a fabricated tool to help us look at reality. When you’re manipulating stats to prove a political point you want to make, then you have conclusively jumped the shark in terms of science.

    When the undigested bollus that is the Baby Boom shuffles off from this mortal coil, you’re going to see alot of these aggregate, uni-variable stats change very rapidly. And people like Obid will, erroneously, attribute it all to a “sudden change in attidtude”.

    I’ll respond to the rest of the stuff tonight.

    Like


  314. MC sez…

    …which is an outright lie which my book proves…

    That would be your as yet unwritten, unpublished masterpiece, right?😀

    An unwritten, unpublished book proves nothing, other than the fact that the “author” who cites it as an overwhelming sense of self-importance.

    Like


  315. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 13:24:58 Menelik Charles

    Patricia Kayden said:

    As far as I am concerned, Black men should have zero interest in who Black women marry, since the rate of Black marriages is low and Black men marry out 22%.

    Menelik replies:

    1) 22% of Black married men are NOT married inter-racially.

    2) Black men are not obsessed with whom Black women date.

    3) Black men respond to Black female ‘swirlers’ who claim Black love is “dead” and who invest in other peoples G*d and culture. They should cease discussing what does not concern them.

    Just saying.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  316. […] In case any of you might have been wondering where I’ve been, lately I’ve been spending a bit of time over at fellow Brotha blogger Julian Abagond’s spot. Like me, he covers issues germane and important to Black America, among them the “Something New” contingent of the Sistahood. You can see me rip it up here. […]

    Like


  317. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 13:37:55 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Thad,
    That’s twice now you’ve tossed a strawman onto the table of debate – neither Sailer, nor have I, ever claimed to be scientists. We are looking at the world around us, and using the simplest of explanations to understand it. That it’s just to simplistic for you to get with isn’t a problem I can or should solve.

    Looking forward to hearing back from ya. Wouldn’t want you to be late for class, now.
    😉

    O.

    Like


  318. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 13:40:50 Menelik Charles

    @Abagond,

    unless you permit me free reign to defend myself against the sorts of slander that was peddled last night, I am hereby asking that you instruct this individual to not mention me in any future posting.

    Yes?

    You have claimed that he does this stuff all the time, and you let it pass…constantly! No intellectual debate can occur when tabloid-style lies are being spread about ones past partners and children; one’s religious faith, and political persuasion.

    I do not like this individual, and I do not wish to engage with him in anyway whatsoever. Please instruct him to avoid anything I might say in my posts.

    Thank you.

    Like


  319. Thad,

    +2 for “jump the shark” and “stats” in the same paragraph.:-)

    It has nothing to do with science; it has to do with certain Black men being irrationally infuriated that certain Black women (and you) don’t give a sh*t what they think. I tell you, I’ve never had someone try so hard to get my attention after being rejected so vociferously. I’m the Laura Winslow to their Steve Urkel!

    Like


  320. Witchsistah, you’re on point with your last few comments.

    Thank you for this comment:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/14/black-women-white-men/#comment-69700

    And especially this comment:

    “Bronze Sparkles,

    You all don’t want to date IRR. That’s fine. It’s not like anyone here can do anything about your decision. It’s not like we can make you date a non-BM.

    But there is no need to call those of us who do “self-haters.” There is no need for name-calling, especially a whole group of people you don’t even know. You’re obviously fine with your decision as we are with ours. We don’t have to put down others to feel good about it either. No need for you to do so.”

    Like


  321. @Patricia
    Agreed, 100%

    Like


  322. I said:

    “Thad:

    No more remarks about people’s personal lives. You have done it to me, Peanut, B.R., Menelik, Ankhesen and no doubt others who do not come to mind right at the moment. It is an ad hominem and, coming from you, hardly an innocent one.

    This is your warning. If you choose to ignore it, you will be banned.”

    Thad said:

    “MC sez…

    “…which is an outright lie which my book proves…”

    That would be your as yet unwritten, unpublished masterpiece, right?😀

    An unwritten, unpublished book proves nothing, other than the fact that the “author” who cites it as an overwhelming sense of self-importance.”

    Thad is now banned.

    Like


  323. I knew it would happen today. Too d@mn arrogant and won’t take a hint

    Like


  324. Thad banned? Huh… I mean, I disagreed with him on a lot of things, especially his style of debate. But I hardly think he was the (only) one to blame in this particular incident. Neither was what he was being blamed for exclusive to him; in fact the person/people that were blaming him engage in similar behavior all the time, that goes unpunished. It doesn’t seem fair… at least he should have banned for something more worthwhile.

    Like


  325. Well after a truce of sorts was called Thad couldn’t help but keep on adressing and ad homing the offended party. I agree Thad isn’t the only guilty party but he was warned and continued to instigate. He didn’t think aba would follow threw, he was wrong.

    Like


  326. I think he did know abagond was serious: he’s seen others get banned very swiftly before. I think he probably just forgot. He doesn’t have the best of memories and gets things/people confused, I’ve noticed.

    Like


  327. why don’t black men date black women is a better question.
    Black men won’t even date black women. Why? Why is this?
    People of the same race won’t date you? Makes you wonder.
    White is better plain and simple.

    Like


  328. Of Thad:

    When you draw a line and someone crosses it, that is extremely bad news. If I did not kick him off now he would do whatever the hell he wanted. He would become far worse than before.

    And even on the issue of personal remarks, Thad did it on a scale and attention to detail that goes beyond anyone else.

    Like


  329. Bob the vast majority of Black men date and marry Black women… Marriage statistics @ around 86% or so..

    Did you actually check or did you take your stupid pill and your lazy pill at the same time this morning?

    To me, an even better question is why White Men are marrying Asian women? Why? Why is this? People of the same race won’t date White? Makes you wonder. POC must be better, plain and simple.

    See, it’s like Mad Libs, anyone can play!

    Like


  330. King, lol.

    abagond, okay, I see where you are coming from. I still think he forgot though or didn’t see the comment, since I think he would have wanted to stay on the blog.

    Like


  331. Rejan,

    Your friend sounds like cool people.:-)

    Y/Natasha/Abagond,

    Maybe a tide (of sorts) is turning? Lately Abagond I would say your blog has been taken over, maybe based on a combination of your personality, time zone issues, etc. I think you try to be more “neutral” than the blogosphere is really ready for; after all it’s your personal blog, not a public forum. But I don’t think getting banned is the worse thing that’s ever happened to anyone… *shrug* moving on.

    I agree with Natasha that maybe this could be a step in the direction of allowing less misogynistic commentary across the board.

    Like


  332. @ King, What? I don’t take drugs dude or stupid or lazy pills. I think a higher percentage of black people take drugs and drink malt liquor than whites. And blacks commit more crime and more crime against white people. Not too many white gangs around are there? Mostly black people in gangs and prison. Sounds about right.

    Like


  333. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 17:01:53 theobsidianfiles

    Hello Rejan,
    Replies below:

    R: Obsidian
    “What I will say is that, when it comes to African Americans, the data seems quite clear: kids in fatherless homes do worse of in life than those who aren’t. *shrugs*”

    R: Which signifies what exactly?

    O: That African Americans have a particular problem to deal with, and that attempting to play cutesy word games won’t solve it. That’s what.

    R: When it comes to anybody kids from fatherless homes are worse off.

    O: That’s true; however, the fact remains that for African Americans, having an over 70% OOW birthrate has not been a boon to them/us. Whites don’t have that problem, nor do Hispanics, or Asians. At least not yet. So, we need to keep the laser like focus on where it belongs: Black folks – and trying to weasel out of it won’t help anybody.

    R: A lot of white people are having kids out of wedlock now, and less people are getting married period.

    O: Et tu? Nice try, but doesn’t work. Let’s focus like a laser beam, shall we?😉

    R: And I think a good reason is from what I’ve seen is that marriage is put off by people pursuing an education because this puts them in a different tax bracket. Single people who claim dependents and are dependents get better fin aid, especially females, but men do too. It’s not just some post women’s lib thing it’s really more of a cultural values shift thing. For most middle class people, and working class people marriage is an impediment to financing school. So that might be a reason why less people( black people aren’t the only ones) are getting married since most of them need some, if not alot, of government loans to finance their education. Most people don’t have the money to pay for college alone. Once you marry, you loose access to alot of state and federal fin aid. College is like three times more expensive than it was in the seventies. The pell grant used to pay at least 80% of what college cost. Now? 45%

    O: Yes, I’ve addressed the financial costs and risks on my blog, and for the record I will concede that you may have a good point wrt the marital situation here. Nevertheless the fact remains, that those who tend to marry, tend to have college degrees, and they tend to remain that way when they do marry. The ones who marry the least are among the working classes, most of whom never marry at all. So, it seems that your theory here has a few holes in it?

    R: And as far as

    *For one thing, quite a few Sistas go to college with the ancillary hope of meeting someone as a “suitable” mate.*

    So do quite a few brothas, but I’ll just use the catch all term people.

    O: Wrong. Brothas go to school with the hope of smashing quite a few Sistas, but they’re not necessarily going to find a wife. If anything, they take full advantage of their sexual marketplace position. Which makes sense.

    R: And again you’re oversimplifying here. What does this signify really? Everyone hopes to find a suitable mate somewhere they interact with people( work, school, the club, wherever), but that idea doesn’t necessarily equate to marriage. And it’s a faint hope for most people, like winning the lottery. I thought most people went to college to get some type of degree and get a job? Most of the girls I know think marriage is a curse word.

    O: That’s nice. Given your background, surely you know that arguing by anecdote is a Fool’s Errand.

    R: You must be old fashioned! Don’t take this as an insult. Just consider, For one thing this generation in particular has more 17 year olds and younger in college.

    O: LOL. No offence taken, if anything its a sureshot sign that you have nothing substantial with which to refute my major points in our discussion. But fear not; that tends to happen quite a bit with me.:)

    R: Answer this question: Do you seriously think TODAY’s(key word) 17-25 year olds, doesn’t matter what race or sex, are ACTIVELY SEEKING a committed long term relationship, at college?!

    O: I’ve already answered your question -YES. Please see: hookingupsmart.com, and holla back.

    R: So much so that that is their expressed reason for attending college?

    Have you seen the guys that go to colleges man?!

    O: I never said that Women of any color go to college for the express purpose of finding a mate; what I said was that it was a concern for them, one among many, and yes, its a bigger concern for the female than it is for the male. Again: hookingupsmart.com. Check it out for yourself.

    R: Take it from an undergrad. You are out of touch here. WAAAAY out of touch. Not saying that people aren’t doing this but I’ve seen too much hooking up to think these marriage minded people are anything but the minority at this point. From men and women.

    O: Annnd, for the third time, because repetition is the mother of learning: hookingupsmart.com. Tell Ms. Walsh The Obsidian sent ya!:)

    *I have trouble citing “racism as the reason as to why so much OOW births take place in Black America, or why marital rates at present barely reach 50%, because as Skip Gates shows in his PBS specials, the first thing Black folk did coming out from under Slavery, was get married. High marital rates persisted in Black America until the 1960s, comcomitant with the Great Society programs, essentially pushing Black Men out of the picture via welfare, Affirmative Action and the like. Black Women have indeed come up the “winner” of the Civil Rights and Women’s movements over Black Men – but it’s come at a price. A true Faustian Bargain, if you will.

    Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony.*

    Insert *white* women for black women in that sentence and you are correct.

    O: No; I did not stutter. I said that BLACK WOMEN CAME UP THE WINNER over Black Men, primarily because they were the double beneficiaries of the Civil Rights movement and the Women’s movement. This is a fact. Black Men haven’t gained anywhere near as much. Again, another fact. And which has serious impications for Black marriage, Black families and yes, Black kids.

    R: And black men were already out the picture, via racism as you pointed out else where, lychings, prison system and what not.

    O: Crime didn’t become a major problem for Black America until after the early 1960s. Prior to that, crime levels among African Americans were relatively low. Moreover, your statement doesn’t address the fact that Black marital rates remained quite high until again, the 1960s.

    R: And it’s true everyone makes trade offs, one of those trade offs is delaying marriage to pursue a successful career and education. For both sexes.

    O: But Black Women do this moreso than Black Men, and this has a noted dysgenic effect on the former, due to the simple fact that they have less time to play around with than do the latter. Hence all the handwringing from the Sistahood…

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  334. I think that obsidian dude just wants everyone to go to his website. No thanks main.

    Like


  335. Bob. This is a discussion about White men and Black women. But I suppose this might fall under the topic barely.. although you’re sliding toward the predictable derailment pattern.

    But again, two can play that game. I think that more toothless White hicks, and lowlife biker gangs smoke Crystal Meth and drink Whisky and “piss beer” like Coors. And I’m willing to bet that it was mostly White people who were involved in the causing HUGE financial downfall that we’re all now experiencing. And if they aren’t in prison now… then they certainly should be!

    See. there’s actually another side to it?? I bet you’re surprised!!

    Like


  336. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 17:41:34 Menelik Charles

    @Bob,

    “I think this Obsidian dude” is contributing to a wider debate. You do not have to participate!

    You choice. Other people will make there’s.

    Like


  337. @ Obsidian
    I realize now you said “ancilliary”, which I still disagree with for the same reasons. Society has changed. People have alot of ancilliary goals they never seriously pursue. I can say this with some authority since I’m the youngest in a family where the oldest girl was in College when I was born. She met her ex husband at school, My next sister met the mate at college too but she didn’t get married, just had a baby with him. And as far as single parents I forgot to mention. My sister is a doctor, both MD and PH.D. Her baby’s father dropped out, one of the reasons they broke up.(kids in fatherless homes do worse of in life than those who aren’t. *shrugs*) Um….do you see the problem with that? As a genetic pathologist, my sister is perfectly capable of raising her niece alone. My niece is pretty, popular, a good student, ballet dancer and she plays the guitar. I don’t think her being in a one parent home leaves her worse off. As rates of divorce prove, parents don’t have to be married to raise a child. I think you’re are ignoring the class factor. For better or worse it’s usually mothers who most shape children into whatever it is they become. Isn’t the President of the county the child of a single parent home? 😉

    I heard alot of your talk and attitude growing up from mostly my oldest sister and a little from my cousins but I hear it alot less from kids I go to school with now. It’s usually after college they want to find a man, and not always. Your viewpoint just seems dated. It’s technically true but in a subjective and limited, meaningless way.

    *O: I don’t disagree with this. However, the flipside of that is that once a guy finds out she done had the national football team up in her, he will most likely decline, present company included, and I think he should have every right to do so, without comment or judgment of any kind. Cool?*

    LMFAO ever watched real houswives of Atlanta? Hoes get turned into housewives! Those are the very women that be getting wifed the fastest! And this doesn’t explain how men in Rio will fall in love with and often marry prostitutes, women who have had men all up in them.

    And I noticed

    *T: How many rapes of black women by white men during that time do you reckon? I guaranteee that it was far more.

    O: Stats, please?*

    *Hi Thad,
    That’s twice now you’ve tossed a strawman onto the table of debate – neither Sailer, nor have I, ever claimed to be scientists. We are looking at the world around us, and using the simplest of explanations to understand it. That it’s just to simplistic for you to get with isn’t a problem I can or should solve.*

    So you want statistics for OTHER people’s logic but you don’t need it to back up your own when their statistics contradict your argument because it is so obviously self evident? Um…………okaaaay……..seems a little self serving and inconsistent though.

    The simplest explanation is usually the correct one but it doesn’t take outliers into account which are very important to understanding human behavior. And what is “simple” is all a matter of perception and therein lies the rub. Biochemistry is simple for me. English is not. I’m a voracious reader but I hate most english classes.I don’t understand why I can’t just read something without forcing a contorted interpretation on it.English is simple for my friend but she hates chemistry because it’s too hard. See what I mean?

    Are you so committed to a certain viewpoint you can’t acknowledge it’s weak points that certain people have pointed out? Or that it may be true but not the majority of the time?

    What exactly are you trying to prove to Jasmine and Natasha, Witchsistah and women like them? That *their experiences with IRR*, which you obviously know little about and have not shared, have misled them or are somehow wrong because they contradict you viewpoint? It’s a little bullying, trying to make other people’s real lives fit your narrow view of the world. Besides by your own admission, you have no real proof of much of your claims except anecdotal evidence, and opinion, which may be true to your experience but not to theirs. Besides how do you “know” so much about black women white men and their relationships when you, if I read correctly, are not either. What you “know” is second hand and therefore limited. You have people telling you first hand that it isn’t like what you say it is and you are telling them that they are wrong?!

    That’s like a man telling a woman that labor isn’t painful, when an actual woman who has had children, several women in fact, tells him that it is. The man who has never been pregnant, and therefore doesn’t know what it’s like and has never experienced childbirth is telling someone that what they have actually experienced is wrong because he thinks childbirth is easy and they are lying to themselves when they say it is painful. Just because some statistics prove that childbirth is easy for some women.

    My point? Labor is idiosyncratic. Like most people and relationships. There are certain prevailing trends but it varies and trends don’t mean anything.

    Even if they are promoting swirling, I think they just want people to keep their options open. And since you guys disagree, it’s pointless to keep pushing the issue. You aren’t really proving anything but you are making yourself look like an arrogant bully. Which I don’t think you are, just stop being stubborn and agree to disagree.

    Like


  338. Shit this is the internet. No one wins a prize for gaining the upper hand in an argument. I realize alot of people have nothing better to do but… still.

    Like


  339. “But I hardly think he was the (only) one to blame in this particular incident.”

    I don’t either. There are some individuals (one in particular) who is very misogynistic yet still continues to comment. If this is a totally pro-black woman blog, then women haters should be banned as well.

    Like


  340. Patricia Kayden says,
    -No time to read all of the posts, but I can say from my own observations that the White men who marry Black women vary as widely as the Black men who marry White women.
    -It is not just nerds or some other stereotypical White man.
    -It’s always interesting to see how Black men, who marry out the most, get their panties knotted up when the topic of Black women marrying out is discussed.
    -As far as I am concerned, Black men should have zero interest in who Black women marry, since the rate of Black marriages is low and Black men marry out 22%.

    laromana says,
    Patricia, thanks for your excellent, intelligent comment. Obviously, BW can love, date, or marry WHOEVER THEY WANT REGARDLESS OF RACE and their relationships are NOBODY’S BUSINESS.

    It never ceases to amaze me how MOST American BM who PUBLICLY CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE have the NERVE to think they can DICTATE who BW should love, date, or marry.
    If it wasn’t for the OBVIOUS FAILURE of THESE ANTI-BW RACIST BM to DEFEND the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of their SAME RACE WOMEN (like NON-BM do), BW wouldn’t be EVERYONE’S UNIVERSAL PUNCHING BAG.
    Until MOST of these ANTI-BW RACIST BM learn how to RESPECT BW and CONDEMN ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE they have NO BUSINESS COMMENTING on BW’s relationships.

    Like


  341. In all my years dating inter racially I’ve never had a black guy tell me I shouldn’t. I’ve only heard of that happening once to a black African girl. Perhaps it’s the area where I live?

    Like


  342. Witchsistah,

    I am not putting others down to feel good about myself at all. I already feel good about me! As a matter of fact, I am confident enough to call it how I see it. With the way many white men are, yes I do feel that as a black woman, for you to open yourself up emotionally and sexually to be in a relationship with a white man, most likely you have self-hate on some level…or at least a questionable lack of pride as a black woman. Unless you get one of those 1 in a million white people who truly see you as an equal and don’t have stereotypical ideas, and can see beyond racist ideologies (which most of them can’t), yes if you are not dating one of those WM you must have issues. Is a hit dog hollering?

    Menelik Charles,
    Thank you, I really appreciate your comment I thought it was very sweet. I do take a lot of pride in my culture and I think part of the reason why is because I had a strong loving AA father so that’s why when I hear all this stuff about black men I have to say “Hold up – wait a minute!” There are good and bad black men and black women but I don’t like this separation and demonizing some of us can do to one another. It’s wrong and it doesn’t help anyone but The Man who wants to see a strong house divided anyway. It’s good to see another person on here with some damn sense! Thought I entered the Twilight Zone for a second lol

    I don’t know how it is where you guys live, maybe it is different in your area, but most black men and black women find each other and end up together.

    As for the 70% OOW birthrate, that does not mean that most of us have babies out of marriage, that means most of the babies born aren’t of married couples. Keep in mind, that stat does not differentiate between common law marriages, live-in boyfriend/girlfriends, and fiances. Remember that many single mothers don’t just have 1 child, many of them have 2+ children. So some of that 70% rate includes multiple children borne to the same mother. Also keep in mind that the national divorce statistic is at 50%. So out of all those “other” people getting married, only half of them will be together 5 years after their marriage.

    Regardless I think your attitude has a lot to do with what you will get out of relationships. If you have a bitter “aint no good niqqas” attitude, you won’t find any good niqqas. If you are positive, you will attract more positivity. Maybe I am a rarity but most of the black women in my family (except for me and my cousin and my underage sister) are married or engaged to black men.

    Like


  343. *looks at comments*

    Some people won’t learn until it’s too late. Oh well.

    Like


  344. @ Obsidian
    *O: I’ve already answered your question -YES. Please see: hookingupsmart.com, and holla back.*

    Are you a college aged black female?

    Because If you’re just basing this off of some blog……..um………..(laughing)……..I think I understand why you think the way you do. The internet, coupled with little knowledge of and interaction with the very people you are so poorly generalizing has seriously warped your thinking.

    I don’t need to check out hooking up smart to know what other black college girls my age are doing when
    a) I am one myself
    b) I know and actually interact with people who are black college age women
    c) I see it around me everyday, probably on a more regular basis than you and I also live it. I don’t need some dating blog to shape my understanding of reality ^_^

    You obviously do though because
    a) your are out of touch hence your curious use of outdated slang like HOLLA BACK
    b)you are NOT a college age black woman and therefore LACK much needed perspective on what we prefer, and want in life
    c)you do not regularly interact with college age people, esp black women because (b)

    Are you REALLY using a website to prove my experience and that of people I know wrong? 0_o

    You’re wrong. I know because I actually live this. You’re just spectating on something you know little about based on …………
    a) a website
    b) and what you probably did thought and saw waaaaaay back when you were in college.

    It has no bearing on today’s generation of people much less black women but you keep insisting that it does because of
    a) a website *LMFAO*
    b) and what you probably did thought and saw waaaaaay back when you were in college.
    c) your own arrogance

    Wow. Despite all contrary evidence and first hand accounts ( mine, witchsisters, natasha, jasmins) that contradict your limited secondhand opinion…….
    You still think our firsthand experience is wrong and your limited secondhand opinion is right?
    LMFAO!

    *Insert *white* women for black women in that sentence and you are correct.

    O: No; I did not stutter. I said that BLACK WOMEN CAME UP THE WINNER over Black Men, primarily because they were the double beneficiaries of the Civil Rights movement and the Women’s movement. This is a fact. Black Men haven’t gained anywhere near as much. Again, another fact. And which has serious impications for Black marriage, Black families and yes, Black kids.

    ………..I sense some bitterness, if not outright misogyny, and hostility. Damn.

    Unfortunately the fact remains that

    *WHITE Women have indeed come up the “winner” of the Civil Rights and Women’s movements over Black PEOPLE – but it’s come at a price. A true Faustian Bargain, if you will.*

    ***R: And black men were already out the picture, via racism as you pointed out else where, lychings, PRISON SYSTEM and what not.

    O: Crime didn’t become a major problem for Black America UNTIL AFTER the early 1960s. Prior to that, crime levels among African Americans were relatively low. Moreover, your statement doesn’t address the fact that Black marital rates remained quite high UNTIL again, the 1960s.

    I’m sorry……uh……….it looks like you just proved my point.
    a)You said marriage rates remained high until the 1960’s
    b)crime didn’t become a problem, until after the 1960’s, which is ironically enough the same time that marriage rates declined in the black community by your own admission

    Maybe marriage rates declined in the black community beacause………………………………………………………………………….black men were already out the picture, via racism as you pointed out else where, lychings, PRISON SYSTEM and what not.

    Black men were out of the picture like I said? Racists got rid of lynching right around the time it was no longer socially conducive to do lynchings(1960) and replaced it with jail, specifically federal prison. Then it went into hiding but continued to warp susceptible black minds like yours. And it continued to divide the black community and destroy the black family structure to weaken us socially(turning us against one another, and helping to perpetuate black male misogyny like yours) economically and politically. And racism went on to live happily ever after in the hearts of all Americans.

    The End

    Game Over. Thank you playing.

    Like


  345. anybody know what happened to Obsidian’s blog?

    Like


  346. F***ng typos!

    Like


  347. Bronze Sparkles,

    Well, I tried being civilized and polite with you. I figured it would fail, and I was right. Carry on hating and slandering folks you can’t control.

    Like


  348. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 19:56:34 Menelik Charles

    just to save people scrolling up. here’s my take on sister Bronze Sparkle’s lyrics:

    @Bronze Sparkle,

    you’re what is proudly, and traditionally, known over in the states as a ‘Race Woman’. Which is:

    1) the kind of sister who really kept the African-American family together during its darkest days;

    2) the kind of sister who believes in social integration but NOT assimilation into racial oblivion;

    3) the kind of sister who can see clearly through the smokes and mirrors of white supremacy, and call it out;

    4) the kind of sister who knows what it is to be loved by a Black man because she was (hopefully) loved by her father;

    5) the kind of sister whose mother (hopefully) knew how to raise sons and daughters to be Men & Women;

    6) the kind of sister who puts her race first (out of necessity) in a world in which our race is put last;

    7) the kind of sister whose ‘race memory’ will never allow our sworn enemies to come between her and and her man;

    the kind of sister who treats African-American history as a ‘race lesson’ and not some scurrilous rumour.

    9) the kind of sister who (like Jews) says ‘Never Again!’ and actually means it;

    10) the kind of sister who believes in God, culture, and family NOT someone else’s G*d, culture, and family.

    Bronze Sparkle,

    shine on, sister friend, for you’re the kind of sister who can be anything, and do anything, she desires but will always be proudly and defiantly Black while other so-called ‘sisters’ mock, taunt, those Black men whose only ‘crime’ is to desire only to be with women of your physical appearance.

    The same women who complain about white men not finding them attractive (which is an outright lie which my book proves) without giving even the merest suggestion that Black women, in the main, do NOT find white men attractive because they are perceived to lack thorough-going masculine physical and behavioural traits.

    You, I presume, see through the perverse irony of their words which is why they’ll read what you say, and pass quickly by. You’re a dissenting sister among racial assimilationists who subscribe to the mantra: ‘if you’re white, you’re alright!’ because being Black and female to them has proven to be all wrong!

    They’re the ones who privately elevate the likes of Halle Berry and Beyonce above themselves; they’re the ones who seek to rid their off-springs of their much-maligned melanin; they’re the ones to whom Ghettogaggers and Monster’s Ball is merely a variation of their own sexual practices with white men; they’re the ones for whom the series ‘Roots’ is an introduction to a single family rather than a story we all share; they’re the ones who’ll stand grinning inanely with their white partners at Black social gatherings because they’re no longer part of its inner circle; they’re the ones who will wince on seeing a cute brotha with a white gal but perk up when seeing the reverse: they’re the ones for whom hypocrisy runs through them like blood through veins!

    They are neither for Malcolm nor King; Farrakhan nor Obama but instead advance an unspoken ‘womanism’ whose assimilationist, anti-Black family, objectives were thought-out in a CIA round table meeting sometime during the 1970s, and launched by the father-hating (yes, I’ve read here books, and I provide an analysis of her life and works in my book) Alice Walker.

    Yeah, the women on here will let you pass, as though invisible, because you’re a Black woman. Not so a Black man. He needs to be put in his place like days of old. He’s the scapegoat upon which they (and whites) must heap all of their sins. Only then can they sit together as one in a white supremacy masquerading as multi-culturalism, racial harmony, free will etc.

    Thank you for keeping it real in an arena in which intellectual dishonesty; historical amnesia; racial self-loathing; and rampant daddy issues forms the basis for all, and every, dispute between the likes of Bro Obsidian and the “swirling”, G*d-fearing, self-loathing, racial assimilationists.

    You sister Bronze Sparkle, remind us that certain women on here are a minority amongst Black women. A troublesome minority it has to be said but a minority all the same. The sooner they shut up, move to the white suburbs, become soccer moms, and go about their daily business without ever mentioning the words ‘Black, men, women and children’ in any sequence the better for us all!

    Thanks again.

    Your Bro Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  349. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 19:59:21 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Rejan,
    You know, I think you’re right; your lack of age (and by extension, wisdom – the knowledge gained from experience) is beginning to show.😉

    Replies below:

    R: @ Obsidian
    I realize now you said “ancilliary”, which I still disagree with for the same reasons.

    O: A distinction with a huge difference. You need to read more.

    R: Society has changed.

    O: Yes it has and as far as Black folk go, in aggregate, for the worse.

    R: People have alot of ancilliary goals they never seriously pursue.

    O: So what.

    R: I can say this with some authority since I’m the youngest in a family where the oldest girl was in College when I was born. She met her ex husband at school, My next sister met the mate at college too but she didn’t get married, just had a baby with him.

    O: *shrugs* Perhaps you missed the part where argument by assertion to authority is a logical fallacy?

    R: And as far as single parents I forgot to mention. My sister is a doctor, both MD and PH.D. Her baby’s father dropped out, one of the reasons they broke up.(kids in fatherless homes do worse of in life than those who aren’t. *shrugs*) Um….do you see the problem with that?

    O: Yes. Its called arguing by anecdote.

    R: As a genetic pathologist, my sister is perfectly capable of raising her niece alone. My niece is pretty, popular, a good student, ballet dancer and she plays the guitar. I don’t think her being in a one parent home leaves her worse off. As rates of divorce prove, parents don’t have to be married to raise a child. I think you’re are ignoring the class factor. For better or worse it’s usually mothers who most shape children into whatever it is they become. Isn’t the President of the county the child of a single parent home?

    O: Yes. Again, the exception doesn’t kill the rule, indeed it strengthens it.

    R: I heard alot of your talk and attitude growing up from mostly my oldest sister and a little from my cousins but I hear it alot less from kids I go to school with now.

    O: So what? The question is whether the information being imparted was indeed legitimate. Given all that we know in our time, looking accross Black America in aggregate, I think the evidence speaks for itself.

    R: It’s usually after college they want to find a man, and not always. Your viewpoint just seems dated. It’s technically true but in a subjective and limited, meaningless way.

    O: OK – then prove it. See hookingupsmart.com and actually talk to its owner, Ms. Susan Walsh. In fact, give her this exchange, and then ask her if what she’s hearing from in the form of thousands of letters from your Women such as yourself from the country’s top unis, “old fashioned” and “meaningless” or not? Looking forward to hearing your report!

    *O: I don’t disagree with this. However, the flipside of that is that once a guy finds out she done had the national football team up in her, he will most likely decline, present company included, and I think he should have every right to do so, without comment or judgment of any kind. Cool?*

    R: LMFAO ever watched real houswives of Atlanta?

    O: No – but even if I did, is a “reality tv show supposed to be taken as actual evidence now? Is that what you’re telling me, Rejan?

    R: Hoes get turned into housewives!

    O: Do you have any stats with which to back this assertion up? Or is this merely more boilerplate anecdote to assuage your sense of outrage by what I’ve said – that is basically, unassailable? Hmm?

    R: Those are the very women that be getting wifed the fastest! And this doesn’t explain how men in Rio will fall in love with and often marry prostitutes, women who have had men all up in them.

    O: I never claimed to be an expert on Rio – that’s Thad’s area of expertise. As for which Black Women are being “wifed” the quickest, doesn’t that lend creedence to my earlier statement about the real consequences of opportunity costs for Black Women who do seek higher ed?

    R: And I noticed

    *T: How many rapes of black women by white men during that time do you reckon? I guaranteee that it was far more.

    O: Stats, please?*

    *Hi Thad,
    That’s twice now you’ve tossed a strawman onto the table of debate – neither Sailer, nor have I, ever claimed to be scientists. We are looking at the world around us, and using the simplest of explanations to understand it. That it’s just to simplistic for you to get with isn’t a problem I can or should solve.*

    So you want statistics for OTHER people’s logic but you don’t need it to back up your own when their statistics contradict your argument because it is so obviously self evident? Um…………okaaaay……..seems a little self serving and inconsistent though.

    O: Not at all. I’ve been quite straightforward in my arguments. Neither you, nor anyone else who has deigned to step up to the plate, has actually refuted what I’ve said with any actual evidence of their/your own; indeed, you all seem to insist on responding by way of anecdote. Hmm.

    R: The simplest explanation is usually the correct one

    O: Good to see you paid attention in science class! The End.:)

    R: but it doesn’t take outliers into account which are very important to understanding human behavior.

    O: How would you know – after all, by your own admission, you suck at trying to understand it (which is what English Lit is really all about) – right? Again – outliers don’t kill the rule – they only strengthen it.

    R: And what is “simple” is all a matter of perception and therein lies the rub. Biochemistry is simple for me. English is not. I’m a voracious reader but I hate most english classes.I don’t understand why I can’t just read something without forcing a contorted interpretation on it.English is simple for my friend but she hates chemistry because it’s too hard. See what I mean?

    O: More than you could possibly imagine…

    R: Are you so committed to a certain viewpoint you can’t acknowledge it’s weak points that certain people have pointed out? Or that it may be true but not the majority of the time?

    O: I am committed to the truth no matter where it leads, who it offends or what it may mean. And the truth is, that the majority of Sistas won’t be “swirling” anytime soon, for reasons already noted both here and back at my own blog, and for anyone to attempt to sell them such an option as a real one, is akin to selling snakeoil. That’s the truth.

    R: What exactly are you trying to prove to Jasmine and Natasha, Witchsistah and women like them?

    O: I’m not trying to prove anything; the stats speak for themselves. See above.

    R: That *their experiences with IRR*, which you obviously know little about and have not shared, have misled them or are somehow wrong because they contradict you viewpoint?

    O: And uh, exactly how do you know that I “obviously” don’t know anything about the subject? On what basis do you say this? Please explain?

    R: It’s a little bullying, trying to make other people’s real lives fit your narrow view of the world.

    O: Rubbish girl, I’m only pointing out the facts and asking them, “what’s up with that”. That they can’t hack it isn’t a problem I can or should try to solve. *shrugs*\

    R: Besides by your own admission, you have no real proof of much of your claims except anecdotal evidence, and opinion, which may be true to your experience but not to theirs.

    O: Wrong. Again, see above.

    R: Besides how do you “know” so much about black women white men and their relationships when you, if I read correctly, are not either.

    O: That’s easy, the same way I know about White Men and Asian Women relationships when I’m not either; it’s called the US Census. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

    R: What you “know” is second hand and therefore limited. You have people telling you first hand that it isn’t like what you say it is and you are telling them that they are wrong?!

    O: No; what I am telling them is that they are overselling a product that is destined to be a dud for the majority of their target audience. That’s what I’m saying.

    R: That’s like a man telling a woman that labor isn’t painful, when an actual woman who has had children, several women in fact, tells him that it is. The man who has never been pregnant, and therefore doesn’t know what it’s like and has never experienced childbirth is telling someone that what they have actually experienced is wrong because he thinks childbirth is easy and they are lying to themselves when they say it is painful. Just because some statistics prove that childbirth is easy for some women.

    My point? Labor is idiosyncratic. Like most people and relationships. There are certain prevailing trends but it varies and trends don’t mean anything.

    O: Yawn…let me ask you, Rejan – ever heard of a Clever Silly?

    R: Even if they are promoting swirling, I think they just want people to keep their options open. And since you guys disagree, it’s pointless to keep pushing the issue. You aren’t really proving anything but you are making yourself look like an arrogant bully. Which I don’t think you are, just stop being stubborn and agree to disagree.

    O: Well, it’s like my mama told me, Rejan: charity begins at home. Since you’re so intent on me taking the higher ground, why not lead by example?

    You were saying?😉

    Keep reading, kid. You’ll learn a lot.

    O.

    PS: Don’t forget to checkout hookingupsmart.com – and don’t say I ain’t ever give you nothin’…

    Like


  350. I have no malice or hatred in my heart for black women who date white men at all. You really think if I see a BW/WM couple walk by that my blood pressure skyrockets and I seethingly inflate like the Incredible Hulk??? I don’t, if that’s what you were thinking. It is simply my opinion that black women who date white men are often dealing with some inner issues. The fact that you are attacking me for expressing that viewpoint is rather telling. You haven’t even countered me with any evidence or stories to try and prove that I am incorrect and ignorant. Most people who have valid points would do that.

    Racism is not dead by a long shot. It is in the hearts and minds of many, no matter how latent it is. So yes, for a black woman to be in an intimate relationship with someone who is most likely a latent racist, she has to have issues.

    Like


  351. @ Chuck
    a better question would be

    Does anyone care?

    *crickets*

    You asking the wrong people.

    Like


  352. Bronze Sparkles, what do you think of black men in relationships with white women?

    Like


  353. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 20:10:31 Menelik Charles

    Sister Bronze,

    I liken the set up you refer as akin to a Jewish woman wrestling with Jewish men on the internet while sleeping with both their enemies!

    Only one sister on here (my lovely young, sister Y) has the good grace and feminine nature to genuinely support all those who wish or need (for whatever reason lol) to date, marry and mate outside the African-American family. I often disagree with her to be sure but she is so sweet that it is simply unthinkable that she would present her views wrapped up in malice towards any living soul.

    I genuinely adore this little sister, really I do, because her heart is in the right place even if her thoughts are occasionally elsewhere.

    Peace.

    Bro Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  354. Rejan:

    if Obsidian’s blog was suspended for violating terms of service it was likely reported by someone reading this comment thread. if so, that’s dirty and underhanded.

    Like


  355. I would prefer black men stay with white women. I feel that black men who exclusively date white women are also suffering from self loathing and lack of pride and it’s sad. All these beautiful, intelligent sistas out here and you can’t find a good one, you run to a white girl? And I don’t like when some of them make slanderous excuses about why they have been “forced” to date out. No honey, all black women aren’t mean/loud/aggressive/ghetto/trashy/etc.. you’re an Uncle Tom with self hatred issues and you despise your own race that’s why you choose to date non-black women.

    Now if a black man is non-seriously dating a white woman then I don’t have a problem with it. I have known of quite a few men who will date a woman for sexual purposes and without taking her seriously. Knowing that there are black men who do that to white women, is why I would have reservations for black women dating white men. Because most of the time men of a certain race are going to eventually end up with women of their own race.

    Like


  356. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 20:16:26 Menelik Charles

    Sister Bronze,

    until those advocating Black women opening their options (but always with sly digs at Black men at its core) wholly and explicitly support Black men dating, say, white women, then please feel under no obligation to answer the above question.

    Shifting the focus once again onto the big, bad, Black man serves to deflect from your stance on the very specific issue of Black women dating out. All roads lead back to Black men. I wonder why?

    Get what I’m saying here?

    Like


  357. OMG typo!! I meant I WOULD PREFER BLACK MEN STAY WITH BLACK WOMEN

    Like


  358. @ Chuck
    ……*crickets*

    Because……………………we care…… that much…………….

    Alright it was me.

    Dammit. And I would’ve gotten away with it. If it wasn’t for your meddling! Curses, how did you unravel my plan so quickly!

    Actually I find you concern touching. You guys really bonded huh?😉

    Like


  359. mmm Im pretty sure he got reported…that stinks

    Like


  360. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 20:43:17 Menelik Charles

    @ Sister Y,

    I’ve done a little investigating and the service provider is unable as yet to give me any reason why Bro Obsidian’s blog was “suspended”. I do know, however, that he had made a pretty hysterical enemy in recent weeks who swore to get even with him.

    I have faith that he’ll sort out this little problem and be back in space real soon…hopefully!

    Like


  361. I don’t think it’ easy to get someone’s blog suspended. Yeah, you can report something that’s distasteful to you. But wouldn’t the blog owner have to threaten violence against someone to get permanently suspended?

    Like


  362. Yeah, I thought you had to get reported repeatedly(by different users/IPs) in order for wordpress to take drastic action. Abagond has a lot of readers so its possible Obsidian’s comments here triggered some flagging.

    @ Menelik Charles

    I started reading the Terms of Service to see what would one would have to do in order to get suspended. When did this “enemy” stuff happen? Is the enemy an “HBDer”?

    Like


  363. Uncle Mu, your blog is gone.

    Somebody done goffed😦

    Like


  364. @Abagond

    I’ve only been avid reader and poster on this site for the last year. But over that time I’ve been impressed with the level and quality of contributions from all types of people.

    On the subject of banning. Readings of my own posts would show THAD was by no means someone whose postings I adored reading. And my views of him have been less than complimentary. But he was a consistent contributer to your blog and, dear I say, occassionally, he did make one or two good contributions!!

    Now while I am not here making a case for troublemaker THAD’s un-banning. – Thats entirely your decision. (I aslo remember saying something similiar when RR was banned)

    Contributions from people like this (however misguided) do actually help stimulate the type of “open” debate this blog continually receives praises for. They easily become “closed” discussion groups where everyone agrees but no one really learns or grows

    Permenant bannings only seek to foster and exacerbate the same types of resentment, egotistical and childish behaviour that led to their banning in the first place.

    Just a thought…

    Like


  365. Actually I think he’s been hacked to. There’s a virus hooked to his blog. If you go there you must immediately use your anti virus.

    Like


  366. really, is this guy’s blog being taken down that deep?

    Like


  367. @ Natasha W

    I think he did know abagond was serious: he’s seen others get banned very swiftly before.

    I was thinking the same thing. BR came off as more amiable than Thaddeus(to me at least) and that didnt save him from getting banned with a quickness. Thats why part of me thinks it was arrogance. Whenever he gets on people’s nerves they appeal to Abagond, who warns him about his behavior. After that, business as usual. I can see why he would think this interaction would blow over. However, Menelik warned him to shut up and stop addressing him, Thad couldnt help himself though..

    I think he probably just forgot. He doesn’t have the best of memories and gets things/people confused, I’ve noticed.

    LMAO!

    Like


  368. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 21:01:27 Menelik Charles

    @ Sister Y,

    this particular enemy is a journalist by the name of Bene Viera. Bro Obsidian did a number of posts based on her articles. He also published her picture (which was in the public domain) which she took exception to and threatened legal action.

    That was always unlikely since Obsidian watches his back. However, organising a number of friends to flag his blog is an relatively easy exercise. One, I strongly suspect, Ms Viera has performed.

    Like


  369. *Looks at comments*

    Off-topic alert.

    Like


  370. @ Chic

    How do you know about the virus? If all this is true, that really blows…

    @Kwamla

    I do agree with you, and you are coming from a good place but homeboy was warned…in more ways than one and he pressed on…*shrugs*
    BTW did RR really get banned??? If so, were was I?!?!?!

    Like


  371. Natasha W said:

    “*Looks at comments*

    Off-topic alert.”

    As someone who is also on WordPress I am very interested in knowing why he got shut down. Hopefully whatever it is he can fix it and come back up.

    Like


  372. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 21:14:39 theobsidianfiles

    The rumors of my demise – have been greatly exaggerated:

    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/

    Spread the word…

    The Obsidian – LIVES

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  373. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 21:16:02 Menelik Charles

    Bro Kwamla,

    I happen to agree with you!!!! I didn’t want that person banned. I wanted him to cease lying about relationships with my ex-partner, and five-year old daughter (suggesting I was a deadbeat dad). But it didn’t stop there. I was also accused of threatening to beat him up; of harassing women on-line; and of being a “conservative, patriarchal, pan-African nationalist” and much more besides.

    For the record, I pick my daughter up from school as well as putting her to bed at night…almost every night! Moreover, I am a practising left-leaning Catholic whose views are diametrically in opposition to those of the Vatican. “Conservative” I aint!

    My request to Abagond was to instruct this individual to leave me alone. I wanted nothing more to do with him. That was all. He wouldn’t stop lying; a fact noted by the blog owner who promptly banned him after repeated warnings.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  374. @Y- I got a warning on my monitor and an email.

    Just don’t open any bank info until you run your computer.

    I hope someone didn’t run him past the “4.c.” people or those who shall not be named.

    Like


  375. “Readings of my own posts would show THAD was by no means someone whose postings I adored reading. And my views of him have been less than complimentary. But he was a consistent contributer to your blog and, dear I say, occassionally, he did make one or two good contributions!!”

    Have to agree with Kwamla. Thad kept things interesting:-)

    Like


  376. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 21:43:58 Menelik Charles

    I did not request this man’s banning. See post below.

    @Abagond,

    unless you permit me free reign to defend myself against the sorts of slander that was peddled last night, I am hereby asking that you instruct this individual to not mention me in any future posting.

    Yes?

    You have claimed that he does this stuff all the time, and you let it pass…constantly! No intellectual debate can occur when tabloid-style lies are being spread about ones past partners and children; one’s religious faith, and political persuasion.

    I do not like this individual, and I do not wish to engage with him in anyway whatsoever. Please instruct him to avoid anything I might say in my posts.

    Thank you.

    Like


  377. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 21:45:11 theobsidianfiles

    Just posted this up over at Chuck Ross’ Gucci Little Piggy blog, who has a post up about my blog being taken down by the haters:

    Hey Chuck,
    Tha nks for the support, and everyone else out there. Many of you will recall when I stood up in defence of Roissy earlier this year. My, what a difference less than a year makes, right?

    At any rate, I’ve found a new blogging home. It’s here:

    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/

    I should also like to add, that far from feeling down and out, I am actually overjoyed by today’s developments. They say, loud and clear, that there’s a there, there, and the supposed “smarties” really can’t hack it in open rhetorical combat. This should be a clarion call to all who blog – if it can happen to me, it can most definitely happen to you, do not get it twisted.

    You would all be doing me a big favor by doing the following three things:

    Seeing if you can retrieve any of my previous material from out of Google (Ferd?); I understand this was done with some of Roissy’s material. If you’re unable to do it, fine, I can always do up more, but it would be nice to put things right back where they were.

    Second, please spread the word about what’s happened today. This is bigger than me; this is about all of us. Remember Juan Williams, my brothers.

    Third, spread the word that the rumors of my demise have been somewhat exaggerated, LOL. The haters can’t shut me down.

    Thanks again Chuck. It’s been said that tough times don’t build character – they reveal it. And when it counted, you stood up on the side of right. Gotta respect ya bigtime for that.

    Thank you.

    The Obsidian
    http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/

    Like


  378. “It never ceases to amaze me how MOST American BM who PUBLICLY CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE have the NERVE to think they can DICTATE who BW should love, date, or marry.
    If it wasn’t for the OBVIOUS FAILURE of THESE ANTI-BW RACIST BM to DEFEND the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of their SAME RACE WOMEN (like NON-BM do), BW wouldn’t be EVERYONE’S UNIVERSAL PUNCHING BAG.
    Until MOST of these ANTI-BW RACIST BM learn how to RESPECT BW and CONDEMN ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE they have NO BUSINESS COMMENTING on BW’s relationships.”

    They loathe to see bw in irr, but at the same time, take every chance to name call, degrade and put down bw. As a bw, the most offensive behavior toward me has been from bm, unfortunatly. And mostly online. smh

    Like


  379. what is it about this topic that just gets some brothers going. Sisters if you like to swirl please cease mentioning anything about the brothers when listing the charms of the ivory sword. Maybe that can keep the discussions less cluttered. the “blk women ain’t ish” meem is getting quit tired and I’m one for beating a dead horse.

    @OBS- Please don’t post those Ms. Bene posts on your new blog or you’re going to have the same situation all over again. Just let that woman be.

    Like


  380. 387 comments. WOW

    Lost track in just 12 hrs.

    Like


  381. Regardless, of what type of relationships BM do/don’t have, BW HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIP CHOICES AND BE IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH QUALITY MEN OF ANY RACE THEY WANT (AND DON’T OWE ANYONE AN EXPLANATION).

    BW’S RELATIONSHIP CHOICES ARE THEIR BUSINESS AND NO ONE ELSE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE WHAT THOSE CHOICES SHOULD BE.

    BW HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT HAVE THEIR HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY ATTACKED BY ANYONE, ESPECIALLY ANTI-BW RACIST BM (WHO OWE BW THE MOST RESPECT BECAUSE THEY WERE BIRTHED BY/DESCENDED FROM THEM).

    Like


  382. laromana

    Regardless, of what type of relationships BM do/don’t have, BW HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN RELATIONSHIP CHOICES AND BE IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH QUALITY MEN OF ANY RACE THEY WANT (AND DON’T OWE ANYONE AN EXPLANATION).

    BW’S RELATIONSHIP CHOICES ARE THEIR BUSINESS AND NO ONE ELSE HAS THE RIGHT TO DICTATE WHAT THOSE CHOICES SHOULD BE.

    BW HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT HAVE THEIR HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY ATTACKED BY ANYONE, ESPECIALLY ANTI-BW RACIST BM (WHO OWE BW THE MOST RESPECT BECAUSE THEY WERE BIRTHED BY/DESCENDED FROM THEM).

    what miss laromana said

    Like


  383. The fun always starts when I’m in class!

    Chic, you crack me up.:-)

    (But those feet(?) are scaring the sh*t out of me!)

    I don’t know why people take blog bannings so seriously. If you have that much to say, can’t you just start your own? It’s wordpress, not the landmark forum for goodness’ sake.

    Like


  384. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 22:51:40 Menelik Charles

    @ laromana,

    there is little or no pressure Black men can bring to bear on “strong, independent” Black women to date within their race. First, the family has no male enforcer; second, Black men know sub-consciously that Black women have already been ‘taken’ at will while they were powerless to defend their honour; third, so few Black women date out anyway; fourth, no one on here, to my knowledge has ever berated a Black women for being attached to a white partner; fifth, Black men tend to enter debates such as the present for reasons other than to lambaste Black women on the net.

    Other peoples from patriarchal backgrounds are more opposed to inter-racial dating etc than are Black people. Not least because they have fathers, sons etc to enforce the family’s ‘honour’. No such ‘honour’ exists among African-Americans…as can be seen, for example, by the sorts of clothing our women wear on a daily basis.

    Lets just stick to the facts, if you wouldn’t mind.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  385. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 23:03:38 Menelik Charles

    Like


  386. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 23:04:23 Menelik Charles

    Like


  387. No such ‘honour’ exists among African-Americans…as can be seen, for example, by the sorts of clothing our women wear on a daily basis.

    *raises eyebrow*

    Like


  388. Goodness, I missed all the drama.😉

    Let me guess this straight. Thad was banned? LOL!

    Somehow I’m not surprised.😀

    Like


  389. That was me, btw. :

    Like


  390. jasmin Chic, you crack me up.

    Aw, thank you. It’s good to know that I can make someone smile.

    jasmin (But those feet(?) are scaring the sh*t out of me!)

    My podiatrist flinched the first time I took off my stilettos. and Miss Ming charges me trip at the nail shop.

    Like


  391. Ok, posting videos about honor killings is inciting & way out of line. also, it’s dismissive of the lives of those girls.

    Like


  392. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 23:34:02 Menelik Charles

    @ temple,

    I do not take the lives of young people likely!

    Like


  393. @menelik charles–

    it’s irresponsible to post those videos. you need to remove them.

    Like


  394. on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 23:43:30 theobsidianfiles

    Hi Chic,
    Looking forward to seeing you over at my new home! Replies below:

    C: what is it about this topic that just gets some brothers going.

    O: ??? Shouldn’t we be asking the very same thing about Sistas wrt Brothas who “swirl”? Need I remind you of Jill Scott’s article in Essence? Can you think up a Male Neo Soul equivalent? I’ll wait.

    C: Sisters if you like to swirl please cease mentioning anything about the brothers when listing the charms of the ivory sword. Maybe that can keep the discussions less cluttered. the “blk women ain’t ish” meem is getting quit tired and I’m one for beating a dead horse.

    O: The problem here isn’t that a few Sistas dig the “ivory sword” but that they wanna oversell their product. A few among us are calling BS on that and coming with the proof – and of course, as we can see, they can’t take it. As I always say young one, Ad Hominem is the last refuge of scoundrels – and censorship, totalitarianism. Of course, in my case, it won’t work. LOL

    C: @OBS- Please don’t post those Ms. Bene posts on your new blog or you’re going to have the same situation all over again. Just let that woman be.

    O: Uh-uh – already working on that right now as we speak. So long as Ms. Viera wants to remain in the public eye and talk smack outta the side of her neck, I’ll be there every step of the way to rhetorically chin check her. Thus is the way of debate in the public square, and we’re not gonna change the rules for girls. If you can’t hack it, go take up something else…gardening, perhaps?

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  395. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:08:16 Menelik Charles

    @temple,

    what are you talking about? Women on here a claiming virtual oppression at the hands of a minuscule number of Black men just because they date, marry white men. The feistiest, most ready-to-fight, matriarchal females on the planet presenting themselves as existing under a system of Black patriarchal oppression seeking to keep women in check is profoundly dishonest!

    The videos above give a flavour of what its like for women living under real patriarchal pressure to conform to what is expected of them. By contrast, Black women can do as they please with very little opposition from Black men.

    Just be honest!

    Like


  396. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:11:20 Menelik Charles

    @Bro Obsidian,

    nice to see you up and about. I’ve downloaded a couple your posts. Did you require them? If so, how would I get them to you? Just by sending them to your new blog?

    Menelik

    Like


  397. @ Menelik

    The existence of a more severe form of oppression does not redefine all lesser forms as non-oppression.

    If my neighbor beats his wife with an iron pipe, and I beat my wife with a wooden stick, it does not follow that I am not beating my wife, by comparison.

    Like


  398. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:24:15 Menelik Charles

    @King,

    I’m pretty proud of the extent of which I am intelligent but I’ll happily confess to not knowing what the hell you’re talking about as it relates to the essential truths of my most recent posts above.

    Thanks anyway.

    menelik charles
    london uk

    Like


  399. Not to worry, I’ll explain it you.

    The existence of honor killings (in other societies) is not a good argument that Black males who do not participate in such extreme forms of patriarchal societal pressure are therefore not exerting any significant societal pressure on their female counterparts.

    Like


  400. “No such ‘honour’ exists among African-Americans…as can be seen, for example, by the sorts of clothing our women wear on a daily basis.”-Menelik

    Really? Totally aside from the fact that this comment is blatantly sexist, I would just like to say that black women do not belong to black men. Nobody owns a black woman’s body or mind except for herself. Let’s just make that abundantly clear.

    It also works the other way around-black women do not own black men, but because of male privilege, it does not bear the same results because women cannot and never have been capable of OWNING men. In fact, it’s irrational to even compare the two concepts. There is NO comparison.

    Black men need to stop thinking they OWN black women. Black men are NOT entitled to black womens’ vaginas solely based on being black. If more people started thinking like this, maybe the uproar over who black women are dating would subside.

    Like


  401. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:33:34 Menelik Charles

    @ Gata,

    please, don’t worry yourself: I would never seek ownership or kinship with you. Please remember that so that you never again have to imagine that I care a damn who you date or marry.

    That’s a deal, right?

    Thanks.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  402. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:40:06 Menelik Charles

    btw

    what “uproar” are you referring to? Masses of Black men getting themselves into a lather about Black women’s dating choices?

    I can’t wait to to read editions of Ebony and Essence magazines running special features on that particular fantasy lol. Lady, you’ve been ‘had’. You have no collective honour to protect. We have never owned you. Please date those who have and cease worrying about what I write.

    Deal?

    Hope so!

    Like


  403. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 00:48:58 Menelik Charles

    @King,

    I will not participate in one-sided, womanist, nonsense! I frame this matter in truth not fanciful thinking! Anyone who claims masses of Black women dating out are under some patriarchal pressure from Black men not to is wickedly dishonest!

    If you wish to make such a case then you better start of using both Black men and women in your example…with a greater pressure exerted by Black women (through shaming tactics etc) on Black men to stay within the race.

    Jesus, man, let this go. You have ideology and a white charger at your disposal; I have observable truths and history on my side. Gridlock is the only outcome here.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  404. temple
    @menelik charles–

    it’s irresponsible to post those videos. you need to remove them

    yea, I’ve taken to skipping over his comments as of late but I couldn’t miss those videos. That’s outrageous. It’s like he’s minimizing the severity of what happened to those young women

    Calculator
    White women have prettier feet.

    And
    peanut
    “I think Calculator is an absolute nut job. But one thing s/he said which I agree with is that white females have much nicer feet than Black females in general.”

    You’re a damn lie both of you!

    Like


  405. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 01:03:25 Menelik Charles

    Oh my God, not again!!!!!!

    Like


  406. abagond

    abagond
    Thad & Menelik:
    Thad, you are right: Menelik has hardly been a gentleman himself. So you are both on warning.

    Uncle mu and chuck, the two of you better watch it over here. Abagond don’t play. I heard you had a bit of harem going.

    *chic noir winks at abagond*

    uncle mu aka obsidain as played by richard pryor

    chuck as played by gene wilder

    abagond as played by the big strong guy cowboy hat

    thad- blue jumpsuit the handkerchief tied just so *wink wink*

    Like


  407. Mira I am not sure why all the blond guy hate.

    How are blond men portryed in the popular media? when you see them?

    Obsidan In their view, they’re hotter, friendlier and more DTF, than are Sistas or for that matter, White Women here.

    And another reason why the STD rate is off the chain when it comes to African-American women. They’ve moved on to the Dominican Republic now.

    Obsidian Witchsistah, in her exchange with me above, noted that SHE, is a nerd, and didn’t appreciate the probable fact that Brothas might have clowned her for this.

    They clowed her cause she’s a nerd? Sounds like their loss. And people complain there are no good sisters.

    Like


  408. chic,

    lmao! What movie is this from? Good comparison.

    Like


  409. @island girl-
    I think it’s stir crazy or delerious:)

    Like


  410. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 02:23:17 theobsidianfiles

    Menelik Charles,
    Yes by all means, please send any posts that you may have downloaded along! Just post them up on my new blog, and I’ll take it from there. Post as many as you have, I’ll need them to construct the new blog, and if all goes well, things should be back to normal in a week or two! Thanks!

    O.

    PS: What you said above about the “strong, independent Sista” being a fraud is so very true…

    Like


  411. Every man in the world bows down and worships the holy and sacred white female foot!

    White feet can’t be beat!

    Like


  412. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 02:41:32 Kid W/Golden Arms

    **********
    I will not participate in one-sided, womanist, nonsense! I frame this matter in truth not fanciful thinking! Anyone who claims masses of Black women dating out are under some patriarchal pressure from Black men not to is wickedly dishonest!
    ***********
    @ Menelik, fam, you need your own blog homie, mos definitely. WHen them books coming out though?

    ***********
    Black men need to stop thinking they OWN black women. Black men are NOT entitled to black womens’ vaginas solely based on being black. If more people started thinking like this, maybe the uproar over who black women are dating would subside.
    ************
    @ Gata, please do tell of how you came to this conclusion about the general population of brothas having this mentality…even though all evidence points to the contrary, and even applies more so to a subset population of the women who have always been more vocal about their disdain for brothas who do it….and if you know any brothas, from the boardroom to the block, most dont care….and that seems to be the real problem for those women who spit this venom…

    ***********
    The existence of a more severe form of oppression does not redefine all lesser forms as non-oppression.
    ********
    @ King

    How have black men have oppressed black women in a lesser form over the centuries and recent decades? Can you bare out how this leads to the current state of black relationships without framing the issue from one side? Can you show how this was done in the Black Panther Party for Self Defense despite the number of women (some of my relatives,even) in key positions, who refused to bear arms due to the violent nature of the game? Can you bare out how the black men has done this even if he is not in his own home, according to many of the women? Can you explain how black men have done this even though we, as a group have less access to resources and are being outpaced educationally by the women? Can you explain how the women have sat by senselessly over time and let this happen, and are only recently standing up, despite human history which is filled with women playing key positions of power and influence BEHIND the throne in various nations??

    Like


  413. abagond?? what can be done about obnoxious commenters?

    Like


  414. kid w/golden arms, what’s up my man:)

    Like


  415. Kwamla:

    You may have liked Thad, but not everyone did. Some thought I was WAY too easy on him. Looking back, I agree. As the commenter with the greatest number of deleted posts, his red light has been going off for quite some time.

    Despite all his intelligence and knowledge and interest, he could not keep discussions within civil bounds. Without that discussion breaks down. He is like someone who is good at basketball but keeps fouling players, someone who cannot keep within the rules that make basketball possible.

    As a moderator I do not like commenters who pick personal fights with others. It means that I wake up and see my blog on fire. It means that I am going to lose a commenter. Thad had cost me at least two commenters and was about to cost me a third.

    Like


  416. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 05:10:42 BleuParfumRoses

    Sam: “And I don’t care if you are light brown, dark light brown, golden brown, brown brown, brown dark, dark brown dark, light dark, darker light dark, just dark, dark dark, light black, light brown black, brown black, light dark black, dark dark black, or just black, 1% black, 4,57% black, 1/2 10,5% black, 56,44537% black, tennessee/eascoast/westside/northstate black”….

    LOL!

    Like


  417. I am usually a lurker, but what a interested discussion. wow.

    Like


  418. White guys are hot.

    That’s why I date them.

    What can I say, I’m a superficial 20 year old, lol.

    Like


  419. If I may add something that I don’t think has been mentioned.

    I think one of the reasons white guys don’t date black women is fear of black men.

    Jasmin’s link about the interracial couple being attacked reminded me of this.

    And I personally have felt this way, At one time I worked with an extremely attractive BW who also seemed to have good values, personality etc. But I didn’t go after her for 2 reasons.

    1. It seemed unlikely that she would date a white guy, Just based on the fact that most BW don’t. (I always assumed this was their preference since women are usually the ones with standards) And therefor the likelihood of rejection was higher than usual.

    2. I figured many black men would not be happy about a “white boy” taking such a fine sister off the market, and I would have to be constantly defending myself when I was with her in public.

    I know it’s cowardly but there it is. I imagine these are common sentiments among white guys who might otherwise be interested in dating black women.

    Like


  420. jas0n, I know that’s one of the reasons.

    But these black men aren’t being very smart when they do things like that; trying to “scare” black women and/or white men with violence. Whites already think they are brutish, uncontrollable beasts. Let’s just tell the truth here. So if they really think whites are going to turn a blind eye to hate crimes being committed against white men, they better think again. They’re going to be joining these boys in prison:

    http://buffalo.ynn.com/content/all_news/505267/teens-sentenced-for-gang-assault/

    Then we’ll be saying “boo-hoo” for another black male whose life is ruined by having a criminal record.

    I’ll be watching the other story closely. I’m sure the sentencing will be even heavier when they find the rest of the assailants.

    Like


  421. @Natasha

    Just to clarify, I never had any real evidence that I would have to defend myself. It was always just an assumption and maybe a racist one at that. But still I can’t help but think eventually something would go down. Even if most black men don’t feel territorial, enough probably do for something to happen eventually.

    Like


  422. Natasha,

    Wow, is there something in the water? It’s not like the criminals in these situations are in any way rational, but what’s the point? You beat the guy (and the girl, in the other story) up, you get arrested and go to jail–even if you get away with it (e.g., they’re too afraid to call the police or something), you aren’t getting anything tangible out of it–she’s not going to dump him and date you. People are crazy.

    BTW, at least one of the guys involved–and one of the first ones arrested–is Latino. He and a Black guy were pictured, but the story made no mention of the race/ethnicity of the other 6 guys.

    Like


  423. jas0n, no one is trying to be racist here. And I don’t think such crimes happen often — nothing like it has ever happened to me or my boyfriend, although we’ve gotten several comments from random men. But the fact that these things do happen is completely abhorrent and I think those responsible deserve everything that is coming to them. Still, I don’t think it’s something that should deter you from pursuing any woman who might interest you.

    Jasmin, I have no idea what the point is. And I don’t care; there is no reason for things like this to happen. And I noticed the Latino guy… I don’t what his problem was. Maybe he was just helping out his buddies.

    Like


  424. “although we’ve gotten several comments from random men.”

    like what?

    Like


  425. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 13:59:29 Patricia Kayden

    I am really glad that many of the Black women who are posting here have figured Black men out. They are hypocrites who try to stop Black women from dating out, while they do so in droves.

    Black men, get it through your heads that you do not control Black women. Control your own selves.

    And Black women — good on finally figuring it out. It wasn’t so complicated, was it? (big smile)

    Like


  426. Natasha,

    I hope so. In the story you linked, the guys weren’t charged with a hate crime, but in this new one there was a report of them saying vulgar things, so hopefully their punishment is more severe.

    Like


  427. jas0n,

    “like what?”

    “sleeping with the ‘massa'” — to me

    “you can’t handle that” — to bf

    “white man’s b*tch” — to me

    “why do black women get uppity and start dating white men” — ”

    “You know that white boy ain’t packin’ nothin’!” — ”
    🙄

    Note that most of the comments are directed towards me. I think my boyfriend unintentionally gives off that “don’t mess with me” vibe.

    Like


  428. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 14:15:06 Kid W/Golden Arms

    Whats up Chic? how you livin out here?

    @Patricia

    *******
    Black men, get it through your heads that you do not control Black women. Control your own selves.
    ******
    this is total projection as menelik and obsidian noted,

    I directed this at Gata but here is to you:please do tell of how you came to this conclusion about the general population of brothas having this mentality…newspaper articles from black magazines directed at black men and all…even though all evidence points to the contrary, and even applies more so to a subset population of the women who have always been more vocal about their disdain for brothas who do it….and if you know any brothas, from the boardroom to the block, most dont care at all, even though many women want them to…which seems to be the real issue…only wanting selective attention to make the men in this case feel rejected only if nobody asks hard questions…

    Like


  429. Natasha,

    We’ve only had one blatantly negative one, but we see this guy every time we go downtown! He has a big sign and he sits on the corner and says “No sloppy seconds! No fornicating!” He sits there all day, so I know he doesn’t just talk to us, but every time we cross this particular street, he’s silent until we walk up, and starts shouting right as we pass.

    Most Black men (in SF, at least) treat my boyfriend as more “down” when he’s with me. He knows a lot of Black guys through the music scene (the cafe where he hosts the OM is run by a Black woman, plus he’s had various jazz mentors and such), and last time he introduced me to some of them, they did a double take and then said, “Oh that’s what’s up” or something similar. Now they go out of their way to speak to him, give him “dap”, etc.

    Out of men we don’t know, the one’s who do say something are usually homeless guys asking for money who make a reference to “brown sugar” or something.

    Like


  430. Jasmin,

    ‘Most Black men (in SF, at least) treat my boyfriend as more “down” when he’s with me.’

    Ha, that’s what my SO was wondering, “Shouldn’t they be liking me more? I don’t get a black card?” [Lol!] I replied, “Uhhh, no, hun.” That might happen in liberal areas, but the state we live in is known for having edgy racial divisions.

    Lol about the homeless guy. It was a homeless (and drunk) guy who made the last comment.

    Like


  431. @Jasmin

    Yeah I have experience with that type of response as well.
    Years ago I went to a mixed club and left with BW. It was dap’s and head nod’s all around as we walked out. Like I had just done some amazing thing and was now more “down”

    Like


  432. ahh, the classic “you can’t handle that”. We’ve gotten that and it is soo ignorant.

    We’ve also gotten, “give us back our sista”. Or the “Asian karate” sounds as we walk by.

    But the weird thing is that (my boyfriend was not white but Asian) white men would direct comments at him just as much as blacks.

    When I’m with white men, we get looks from ww. Or bw give me that approving and/or curious look and smile.

    I’ve had bm in the service industry be blantantly rude to us, to the point where I contacted the manager and at least one was repremanded.

    My current SO is arab and we are not bothered much.

    I would be curious about other women who date outside and their expriences.

    Like


  433. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 17:08:23 Patricia Kayden

    @Kid w golden arms,

    Go to youtube and check out the anti-Black women posts there. Also look at the comments by Black males whenever Black women or White men post about their relationships. It seems that for some reason Black men have the nerve to be commenting on Black women dating out (always negative comments) while ignore the plethora of Black men who are posting about their interracial relationships.

    I never look at posts about Black men with White women because I am not interested in them or their relationships, but whenever I check out the Black female/White men youtube posts, I see the angry Black male comments.

    Also, the violence against the Buffalo White male who was dating a Black woman and the murder of the military IR couple speaks volumes about how Black males feel about Black females marrying out.

    Like


  434. We aren’t really around Black people (who aren’t related to me) enough for me to really say one way or another, though I was surprised more people didn’t have anything to say in Chicago. What I do find interesting (my boyfriend doesn’t notice as much) is that people are so blatantly obvious when they stare. We catch people all the time and we’re not even looking for it, so who knows what we’d find if we actually made an effort.

    In general (talking about people who have an obvious reaction), Black women smile a lot, Black men are split between looking like, “Huh?” and the aforementioned “dap”, White women scowl/pointedly stare and White men give a goofy smile/thumbs up. The weirdest encounters (by far) have been dude on the corner and these two old Asian ladies who gave us the meanest looks the whole bus ride home. *shrug*

    Natasha,

    Don’t get me started on the “Black card”–when stuff like that happens my boyfriend will not.shut.up.😛

    Like


  435. Those older Asian ladies were probably thinking, “What’s that black girl doing with him?”. Hating.lol I’m thinking that a lot of races especially Asian, Indian hold Whites up to the top of the heirarchy. So it was probably a mixture of envy and haughtiness.

    White women probably wouldn’t be so concerned if you were dating a “wigger”, for lack of a better word. But if you’re with someone they preceive as quality, someone that they would actually date – that’s a problem.

    Like


  436. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 18:26:32 Menelik Charles

    @ Patricia Kayden,

    why don’t you get it through your thick skull that the only race in which a full-blown matriarchy reigns supreme is in the African-American family/community! Black men control absolutely nothing, and everything they do is geared towards getting, and/or pleasing women.

    The education they forgo in their youth is for what? For being called white, gay or a nerd by mostly Black females. The drugs they sell on the corner is for what? For enough cash money to purchase the toys to attract females. The jails up and down the USA are full of Black men whose criminal actions were directly or indirectly linked to their misguided attempts to gain female favour.

    Please, do not speak of male privilege as it relates to Black men. Male brawn, yeah; but no privileges. Women are the powerful and privileged group in the Black family and community. The sooner Black men wake up to this fact the better it will be for BOTH sexes.

    Good day, madam!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  437. Although Indians have a caste system that relies in some part on color I don’t think they hold up whites nearly as much as East Asians do. Most of the Indian girls I know stick with Indian guys and I have never heard an Indian female praise white men while denigrating Indian men the was E. Asian women do.

    As far as Asian women have an attitude about non-white/Asian women being with white men I think is true. I have said elsewhere how dating comes up and Asian women have made comments about how certain types of guys wouldn’t be interested in me because I’m black. Even when dealing with black men It seems a lot of non-black women think they have an advantage simply for being non-black.

    Like


  438. “Good day madam!”

    LOL! this sh*t is like Laurel & Hardy, Dumb & Dumber or some other mindless entertainment.

    stupid men who think they have the power to change anything but their own dirty underwear are effing funny :->

    Like


  439. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 19:13:03 theobsidianfiles

    Before I address Ms. Kayden, I’d just like to say that if indeed people were attacked out in Cleveland I think it was, then I am hopeful that they’re apprehended asap. Lawlessness and violence cannot be tolerated. Period.

    Now having said that…

    Ms. Kayden, you haven’t addressed Menelik Charles’ points about who really calls the shots in Black American, and given the nature of the lady commenters here, I can’t say that I’m surprised. When things are back up and running the way I would like on my end, I’ll be addressing this. Stay tuned..

    O.

    Like


  440. Hey Y,

    I guess I based that assessment on how I see Indian (store owners, ect) in NYC and how they treat and cater to white customers as opposed to all others. It is so obvious. And they are quite unaplogetic about it. So I guess I thought that that translated to every other area, including dating/relationships.

    Wow! Asian women actually said that to you? That takes nerve. There is a definite caste system. They don’t want to accept that men could be attracted to bw. They only think that is reserved for ww or aw.

    I’ve said this before. I was to room with a Filipina and met her at least five times previous to moving in. We got along superbly and she said numerous times how much she liked me. The day I was to move in, she asked my nationality. When I said black. She didn’t believe me. She thought I was Fililipina or Hispanic. I said no and she said, “well are you at least mixed?”.

    Long story short. Her attitude completely changed and the police had to be called.

    Like I said, some of them are so blatant and unapologetic.

    Temple,

    LOL. Tell us how you really feel.:) Great comments!

    Like


  441. @ islandgirl

    Definitely, dont get me wrong they do cater to whites above all but I dont think the are as extreme as E. Asians (especially females). I worked in a grocery store as a cashier in high school and I really noticed the was they acted. Of course when you are in line the first person you see is the cashier. I would do my job and greet, smile, and ask if everything is alright. More often than not they will just ignore me and/or start barking about prices. However, if my bagger(white or Hispanic) said hello, smiled ect they would get all friendly and perky. When it comes to paying I would tell them the total and if they were paying cash I would hold my hand out to collect the money. Again they would do rude stuff like put the money under my hand, on the counter rather than just handing it to me. I hardly ever experienced this rude behavior with black, white, Hispanic, or Middle Easter customers, just Desi and E. Asian.

    The funny thing is, I also worked in the Customer Service booth and the main people trying to return goods(usually opened, used, or expired receipts) were Asian. Suddenly their attitudes changed when they were trying to get around the return policy and their get money back.

    As far as dating, yes, its seems Indians are more strict about not getting with other races and cultures, but they will make concessions for whites.

    Yup, they have said stuff like that. I was talking about hanging around the engineering building and scouting(LOL) because its a male dominated major. And this chick said “But your black”, and? Thinking back its a bit ironic because they guy Ive been seeing is an mechanical engineering major. I would say it takes nerve to say such a think but really it doesnt. Just goes to show the BS people say when they start to feel comfortable.

    Im sorry to hear about your roommate, islandgirl. Some people just cant help themselves. I really dont see how your being black fundamentally changed the vibe between you two, then again racism is a MFer.

    Of course, Im not talking of all Asians, but in my experience many behave like this.

    Like


  442. Patricia Kayden,
    -It seems that for some reason Black men have the nerve to be commenting on Black women dating out (always negative comments) while ignore the plethora of Black men who are posting about their interracial relationships.
    -I never look at posts about Black men with White women because I am not interested in them or their relationships, but whenever I check out the Black female/White men youtube posts, I see the angry Black male comments.
    -Also, the violence against the Buffalo White male who was dating a Black woman and the murder of the military IR couple speaks volumes about how Black males feel about Black females marrying out.

    -I am really glad that many of the Black women who are posting here have figured Black men out. They are hypocrites who try to stop Black women from dating out, while they do so in droves.
    -Black men, get it through your heads that you do not control Black women. Control your own selves.

    laromana says,
    Patricia, thanks for posting these EXCELLENT comments regarding the way MOST American BM treat BW/WM IRR’S.

    Despite the DENIALS of SOME on this post, the FACT is that MANY American BM, who have NOTHING but CONTEMPT for BW, have the NERVE to think they SHOULD have a say in who BW choose to be in relationship.

    OBVIOUSLY, it’s NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS and I, too, am happy to see that more BW are IGNORING these WORTHLESS, ANTI-BW RACIST BM and choosing to be in relationship with QUALITY men of ANY RACE who treat them with LOVE/RESPECT.

    jas0nburns says,
    1. It seemed unlikely that she would date a white guy, Just based on the fact that most BW don’t. (I always assumed this was their preference since women are usually the ones with standards) And therefor the likelihood of rejection was higher than usual.
    2. I figured many black men would not be happy about a “white boy” taking such a fine sister off the market, and I would have to be constantly defending myself when I was with her in public.

    -I know it’s cowardly but there it is. I imagine these are common sentiments among white guys who might otherwise be interested in dating black women.

    laromana says,
    jas0nburns, I appreciate your honesty in noting that you know that it was cowardly for you to not ask out the attractive BW at your job.

    In my life, I’ve seen (and experienced first hand) that the MAIN reason MANY American WM don’t pursue relationships with BW is ANTI-BW COWARDICE. These WM have NO PROBLEM dating and marrying NON-BW but EVEN IF THEY’RE ATTRACTED TO BW, they’ll ALLOW ANY/EVERY obstacle to get in the way of establishing a relationship with her.
    In every era there have ALWAYS been people in America who opposed LEGITIMATE BW/WM relationships but CERTAIN American WM have CHOSEN NOT to let ANYONE/THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS TO STOP them from pursuing a relationship with a BW they loved.
    After all, it was the COURAGEOUS Lovings (BW/WM married couple in the 60’s) who BRAVELY stood up to ANTI-BW/ANTI-BLACK RACISM and succeeded in getting ALL IRR MARRIAGES LEGALIZED in the U.S.

    Like


  443. Islandgirl,

    It was especially strange given that he lives in a heavily populated mixed Asian (mostly Chinese and Vietnamese) area–and I don’t think the two women even spoke English!

    Y,

    I remember you mentioning those experiences before, and I still think those girls are crazy! At my uni you see very few WM/AW couples–I’ve actually seen more of the opposite pairing, though most of the Asian students are super-tight. Asian guys are more likely to hang out with White guys than Asian women are to hang out with White women, and most just casually prefer people of their own ethnicity (which is easy, if you’re Korean, not so easy if you are from any other Asian group). Maybe it has to do with the fact that the White guys here aren’t particularly interested in Asian women (above other groups of women). They will viciously dog White women, express some wistful thinking about Black women, and react pretty neutrally towards Asian and Latina women. No idea why.

    Like


  444. Y,

    Your experiences are unbelievable. You have to wonder if anyone else notices those little slights when they occur. But, again, what gets me is how unapologetic they are about it (ex. putting money on counter instead of hand) I don’t know if it is culture for some, but courtesy doesn’t seem of importance. Like you said, other races aren’t as blantantly rude, on average.

    I think a lot of it has to do with people having the need to feel superior to someone to feel better about themselves.

    I do hear of E. Asians who own black hair care stores treat their customers with such disrespect and mistrust. They say that they are followed and watched. I do not support businesses like that.

    Did you feel less than when those things occured?

    Thank you regarding my roomate. You’re right. Racism is very ignorant especially since we had such a good vibe before she found out I was black (I was fine being any other race under the sun), but because I’m black, everything changed. smh

    Your situation reminds me of how a lot of other races think. Remember the article about the white girl who went to Europe with her black friends and was shocked and appalled that they got attention? It is the same mentality.

    Jasmin,

    Yeah, they should be used to that in your boyfriends area. But you have to remember that they are from the old school.

    Like


  445. Chuck–

    and you haven’t shown much evidence that this fear of One Drop holds. white men don’t seem much afraid of one drop of Asian blood or Latino blood.

    I think this is definitely a BIG factor.

    As well the second tends to illustrate the first. There ISN’T a one drop rule for white – Asian kids, or white Latino ones either. They’re considered mixed by both sides of the families in the overwhelming majority of cases. It’s the black community that almost without exception considers the kids black rather than really mixed; most whites these days would tend to consider the kids mixed. But that’s not what the kids learn in school or when visiting their black relations.

    Like


  446. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 22:22:36 Patricia Kayden

    Actually, I’m not going to continue posting to any Black men such as Menelik. I don’t have to explain African American male-female dynamics to anyone. (Plus I am not African American and cannot explain the dynamics anyways).

    If Abagond ever posts about Black men marrying White women, I will not even read that post. Not interested in the least. It has absolutely nothing to do with me (except that it shows how hypocritical Black men are).

    So why if Black men don’t care about who Black women marry are so many posting here whining? Just curious.

    But as I said before, it’s great to see so many Black women who have dehoodwinked themselves and figured out what’s what. They’re are a whole lot of Black Women Empowerment blogs out there that are preaching the message loud and clear.

    Y’all have a great weekend!!

    Like


  447. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 22:24:00 Patricia Kayden

    In last paragraph meant to say “There are a whole lot of Black Women Empowerment blogs” … Rushing.

    Like


  448. on Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 23:22:24 Menelik Charles

    “There are a whole lot of Black Women Empowerment blogs” …who talk constantly about BLACK MEN! White men are merely side talk.

    Why is this?

    Like


  449. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 01:01:48 Kid W/Golden Arms

    Damn, Menelik and Obsidian beat me to the punch,lol..

    @ Patricia

    You did not provide evidence for your claim. The way you framed the youtube videos posted by black men is a misrepresentation of what each individual man has to say regarding a wide area of issues, with dating being a small portion. Most of those videos are in response to a woman as well. Any criticism that is framed as hate, when it was given on solid grounds, is a huge red flag. Actually looking at the multitudes of videos, instead of cherry picking for evidence for preconceived notions, would reveal that. On top of that, the murders you mention are not evidence of anything but the actions of a few cowards, that we can agree.

    ************
    In every era there have ALWAYS been people in America who opposed LEGITIMATE BW/WM relationships but CERTAIN American WM have CHOSEN NOT to let ANYONE/THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS TO STOP them from pursuing a relationship with a BW they loved.
    *****************
    @ laronama

    This is romantic at best, and applies more to black men who date out than anything. In small pockets it would be true, but black women can always pass into the larger society if they know how to act or just play the background role, not being seen or heard until requested to do so. Note that the anti-miscegenation law was not passed until a white man wanted to marry a black woman. Black men of that day and of today deal with all kind of shit when dating/marrying out, especially from a subset of black women who swear they are fabulous and strong one minute, yet play victim the next, when someone challenges them, as noted in this thread. Those same women have become notorious for claiming that white women are”taking all the good ones.” Now they are projecting unto others behavior that is only true on their part.

    As Menelik noted, absolutely nobody has more freedom in the black american community than the women, being double beneficiaries of civil and womens rights, it is even taboo to criticize or question many on solid grounds (see obsidian, that is how they respond). Most brothas in the streets willadmit, if you ask them, that they got their behind some money for a woman, or some woman period. Since black men supposedly date or marry out at 22% (this is just in america, there are plenty of military bruhs overseas chillin) its safe to assume that those men were being chose, and accepted the women that chose them.

    If these men are so bitter and angry, especially if a white man marries a black woman, why arent they promoting swirling amongst black men in retaliation for being rejected?

    If black men are so angry, bitter,resentful, why are we consistently being chose by most black women and women of other ethnic backgrounds?

    Why do most black women who are proposed to by black men accept the marriages?

    Why do some black women who date out insist on being vocal about it, as if someone was gonna stop them to begin with? As if they dont know they run things as a group and are the face of the black family (mommas baby, daddys maybe)?

    Like


  450. Patricia,

    I applaud you for your accurate observations. I agree. It’s best to not engage with those who are beyond reason.

    And yes, SOME bm can be very hypocritical regarding irr and Black women. It brings out the worst.

    I always thought that you are black for some reason. Because you’re not, it makes me respect your observations even more.

    Would you care to share some of the empowerment blogs?

    Like


  451. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 04:52:34 Menelik Charles

    Bro. Kid Golden,

    some/many swirling Black women need Black men to oppose their inter-racial relationships for a good number of reasons. First, it places these Black women firmly in the spotlight; second, it sets Black man against the an ever-victorious white man; third, it metaphorically displaces white woman from her pedestal; fourth, it gets back at the internalised Black father (who may have battled, and lost, white his whole life) who may have betrayed them in childhood; fifth; it opens up the possibility of having Halle-like babies with clear skin and “good hair”…I could go on!

    Whichever way you slice it, Bro, Black women in general really don’t like themselves very much, and for good reasons. What they do like about themselves is usually as a direct result of Black men idealising them e.g. their hips, small waists, curvy derrières etc. All the features polar opposite to the scrawny white female.

    This celebration by Black men of the Black female form has very obviously elevated Black women above other races of women amongst Black men. The one characteristic Black men loath in Black women is their infamous attitude. This constant need to have the final word or score the winning goal…it’s all too much!

    As I say above, even when they hook up with white boys, they work out some means to mention Black men in their dispatches. Seriously, I have never encountered such an unhappy, and confused, group of “happy” people in my whole life!

    May G*d help them!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  452. Menelik Charles says,
    Bro. Kid Golden,

    some/many swirling Black women need Black men to oppose their inter-racial relationships for a good number of reasons. First, it places these Black women firmly in the spotlight; second, it sets Black man against the an ever-victorious white man; third, it metaphorically displaces white woman from her pedestal; fourth, it gets back at the internalised Black father (who may have battled, and lost, white his whole life) who may have betrayed them in childhood; fifth; it opens up the possibility of having Halle-like babies with clear skin and “good hair”…I could go on!

    Whichever way you slice it, Bro, Black women in general really don’t like themselves very much, and for good reasons. What they do like about themselves is usually as a direct result of Black men idealising them e.g. their hips, small waists, curvy derrières etc. All the features polar opposite to the scrawny white female.

    MC,
    You/your ANTI-BW RACIST BM ilk DON’T KNOW BW and really NEED TO GET OVER YOURSELVES and YOUR DELUSIONS about US/OUR lives.

    What you ANTI-BW RACIST BM think about BW is IRRELEVANT.

    Why don’t you/ANTI-BW RACIST BM like you LEARN to FOCUS on FIXING YOUR MANY PROBLEMS and STAY OUT of BW’s lives.

    Like


  453. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 05:21:33 Menelik Charles

    @ Laramana,

    this is precisely what I meant about having unresolved issues with daddy! Seriously, come on: Black females are my mothers, sisters, lovers and daughters. They are central to my life!

    Sure you didn’t know this? Could you not even have, maybe, guessed it?

    Wow!

    Like


  454. “Whichever way you slice it, Bro, Black women in general really don’t like themselves very much, and for good reasons. What they do like about themselves is usually as a direct result of Black men idealising them e.g. their hips, small waists, curvy derrières etc. All the features polar opposite to the scrawny white female.”

    Menelik…shut up. you have an attitude yourself, you dont’ need to be criticizing bw for having an attitude…and I love myself just the way I am…I love my hair, my hips, my butt, my brown skin…not because of a bm but because God gave them to me…that was a rude and arrogant comment…it really was. and this coming from a bw who prefer to stay within her race…wow…

    Like


  455. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 05:38:53 Menelik Charles

    @Peanut,

    if the cap did not fit you then you didn’t have to assume it was meant for you, right? Clearly, you possess little of this attitude I spoke of lol

    It’s like a reflex isn’t it, sweetie?

    Like


  456. These are some of the best comments from the ladies of this blog thus far. Really enjoying the comments. Go girls!

    Like


  457. @ islandgirl

    Yes it is unbelievable, LOL. Believe me, others notice. There was a black female by the name of Joy that worked in the same position as me. We would talk about our experiences, along with the other black(male and female) employees. Same thing across the board, I wasnt the only one. It felt good to have people to vent about it with, it prevents us from getting bitter. When we talk, we laugh it off and just let it go. The only person that was a little bitter was the Dairy Manager, he was a cool guy and he would have me rolling when talking about dealing with the BS. After hearing his stories I cant blame him for being mad.

    I never felt bad/less than because of it. At the end of the day I did my job (smiling, good customer service ect) to the best of my ability. If I am friendly and people want to treat me badly I dont internalize it, the problem is with them, not me. However, when they refuse to hand me money I always returned the favor. If they have their hands out for money/receipt I would intentionally but it on the counter, smile, and tell them to have a nice day. I can only give as good as I receive, LOL.

    Yep, something like 85% of black hair stores are owned by Koreans. I was watching “Good Hair” and Chris Rock said the inventory catalogs are written in Korean to prevent outsiders from starting up. I live in a predominate white area so sometimes I have to go to black neighborhoods to get some haircare products. Most of the time the stores are owned by Koreans, but they hired Hispanics(no Blacks) to work as clerks, despite the demographics of the neighborhood. Yes, oftentimes they are rude and follow you around. The store I went to only had one guy that was nice, he was the Korean owner. Everyone else was on BS. Later, someone told me a Nigerian man owned a hair store a block away and I started shopping there. His prices were a little higher but the customer service was so much better. Also, he knew what products worked for natural hair and would direct me to the quality items, rather than selling me junk.

    Like


  458. White men chose asians over blacks?….That sure as hell don’t bother me none. They are not at the top of my list either. Never have been, never will be.

    Like


  459. peanut says,
    Menelik…shut up. you have an attitude yourself, you dont’ need to be criticizing bw for having an attitude…and I love myself just the way I am…I love my hair, my hips, my butt, my brown skin…not because of a bm but because God gave them to me…that was a rude and arrogant comment…it really was. and this coming from a bw who prefer to stay within her race…wow…

    laromana says,
    peanut, thank you for your excellent response to MC. He (and BM like him) seem to think they can DISRESPECT, DEMEAN, and DEGRADE BW and that we just have to “take it”. That’s a LIE I REFUSE to “ACCEPT”.

    A MAJOR REASON the world continues to believe ANTI-BW RACIST LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES is because MANY ANTI-BW BM, like MC, PUBLICLY PROMOTE/CONDONE THEM.

    NO OTHER RACE of WOMEN ON THE PLANET, BUT BW, have to CONSTANTLY deal with their SAME RACE MEN PUBLICLY TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.

    Having been BIRTHED BY BW/DESCENDED from BW isn’t ENOUGH to MOTIVATE these ANTI-BW BM to show BASIC RESPECT to their SAME RACE WOMEN.
    THESE ANTI-BW BM’S ATTITUDES/ACTIONS are TRULY DISGUSTING/REPREHENSIBLE and THIS is what they should FOCUS on CHANGING instead of spewing out more ANTI-BW BS.

    Like


  460. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 17:09:06 Menelik Charles

    JESUS!

    Like


  461. Laromana,

    I couldn’t agree with you more! Men who CLAIM to love black women but at the same time trashes and degrades them is highly suspect. Actions speak louder than words and men who are online name calling, analyzing, putting down black women are not real men to me.

    Black men should respect and uplift black women (all black women). You don’t always have to agree. But resorting to name calling, questioning relations with their father, antagonizing seems questionable.

    It’s true, I’ve never seen a race of men who degrade their own like bm. smh

    Again, I am so glad that you ladies are realizing and confronting the bs.

    Y,

    You had a good attitude. Give as good as you get, but don’t let the treatment get to you. It really is their problem and hopefully one day, they will realize.

    It’s also important to have that support system to bounce stories off of.

    I don’t think that their behavior will really change unless the heirarchy changes. Some people thought that it would change with Obama, but it seems even more prevelant.

    Like


  462. It sucks to see Thad banned. Sure, he was arrogant, but censorship is rarely, if ever, a good thing. I don’t agree with censorship unless it involves extreme racism.

    He’s only slightly worse than Menelik Charles.

    Like


  463. if the cap did not fit you then you didn’t have to assume it was meant for you, right? Clearly, you possess little of this attitude I spoke of lol

    It’s like a reflex isn’t it, sweetie?

    if defending other bw from demeaning comments is considered “having a attitude” then i guess i do…

    You made a blanket-statement about bw and NOWHERE in ur comment did u state that you weren’t making a blanket statement nor did you state who you were addressing, so as far as i’m concerned…your comment was ignorant, rude and deserved a response…if you took that as “attitude” whatever that means… so be it…sweetie pie…:)

    Like


  464. So this whole patriarchy thing. Is the idea that supposedly racism effects black men more than black women? Therefor BW have more power within the community? It sounds like goldenarms is making a case for BW privilege.

    Like


  465. “You made a blanket-statement about bw and NOWHERE in ur comment did u state that you weren’t making a blanket statement nor did you state who you were addressing, so as far as i’m concerned…your comment was ignorant, rude and deserved a response…if you took that as “attitude” whatever that means… so be it…sweetie pie… :)”

    The prevailing anti-racist wisdom is that white people who take criticism of whites personally are derailing. Does this only apply to WP then?

    Like


  466. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 19:08:22 BleuParfumRoses

    “NO OTHER RACE of WOMEN ON THE PLANET, BUT BW, have to CONSTANTLY deal with their SAME RACE MEN PUBLICLY TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.”

    It’s sad, but true. I was absolutely horrified when I came online–about 14 years ago–and first came across some of the nastiest, most hate-filled anti-Black woman propaganda imaginable … and written by self-identified black males! Most of those guys had no further use for Black women, as they had managed to get their hot little hands on the non-BW they’d always wanted anyway. That being the case, they then felt free to not just sever ties with Black women but to publicly trash BW on the internet — where they could reach untold numbers of non-Blacks with their anti-BW smear campaign.

    And it all these years later it continues. Only now the maligning of the supposed distasteful and immoral character of BW comes under the guise of “concern” and open-mindedness — all in an effort to discredit Black women in the eyes of the world so no other men will consider her marriageable, and to warn BW and BG lurkers to know their “place” and stay in it.

    This is about control — just as it is in a typical abusive relationship where the husband might tell the wife how horrible she is, and how no one else would put up with her but him. That is not love.

    As for me: their slander and other attempts at manipulation won’t work. I’m a grown woman, and I can’t even imagine getting on here and engaging ANYBODY (including my own mama) in a debate or explanation over who I should or shouldn’t date. It is to laugh.

    Like


  467. Jas0n,

    Don’t be an arse.

    Like


  468. BleuParfumeRoses,

    It is about control! Some of them claim such militant concern for bw, especially ones they feel have been shunned and outcast, only to continue with anti-bw, hateful discourse and then have the gall to complain when bw chose to be with men who respect, love and cherish them.

    MC has been the worst I’ve seen. And I really appreciate people calling people like him out on the nonsense. I have a theory about men like this, which I won’t share on this forum.

    I say that we deserve to be respected and we should migrate toward men who give the respect – regardless of color.

    Like


  469. @ Jasmin

    haha OK, but I like consistency what can I say?

    Like


  470. I think it is really weird that some guys, regardless their color, race, class or favorite baseball team, speak about what black women do and why.

    Like all here know I been at odds with these women here but I never imagine nor think that I know how they think or how they should think and behave.

    Black women have their own voice and can speak for themselves, they can make their own choices despite what any man, black or white think, and it is their right to do what ever they want.

    I might not like what they say, disagree with them or any other thing under the sun, but I can not tell them how they should live their lives. That is their life and they do what ever they want with it. Just like my life is mine, or yours is yours and we do what we want with it.

    Peace.

    Like


  471. “The prevailing anti-racist wisdom is that white people who take criticism of whites personally are derailing. Does this only apply to WP then?”

    Ah, but the unofficial “anti-racist” definition of racism is anything that offends or inconveniences “blacks” (defined in this case as those with strong Afro-centric features). Thus, from an “anti-racist” perspective, there is no legitimate criticism of blacks.

    Like


  472. Jas0n,

    Yea…except that’s not consistent. Saying WP do [insert common White tendency] and that deflection of that reality is derailing is different than saying White people are ugly and…I think you can take it from here. Don’t make me call the Apollo clown on you!😛

    Like


  473. Islandgirl,

    Does the theory concern a small pen*s complex? No? Carry on then.:-)

    Like


  474. @ FG

    well, I’m actually OK with not taking general crit of whites personally. I often criticize whites in a general way myself. It seems like generalization is the default mode of conversation and that’s fine, but then you can’t all the sudden get mad when it’s your group that’s being spoken of in general terms and act like it was a personal attack. Whether your group is privileged or not the same rules should apply.

    Like


  475. “Whether your group is privileged or not the same rules should apply.”

    Hmmm … “privilege”, that’s another one of these curious “anti-racism” concepts.

    Like


  476. islandgirl says,
    Laromana,
    -I couldn’t agree with you more! Men who CLAIM to love black women but at the same time trashes and degrades them is highly suspect. Actions speak louder than words and men who are online name calling, analyzing, putting down black women are not real men to me.
    -Black men should respect and uplift black women (all black women). You don’t always have to agree. But resorting to name calling, questioning relations with their father, antagonizing seems questionable.
    -It’s true, I’ve never seen a race of men who degrade their own like bm. smh
    -It is about control! Some of them claim such militant concern for bw, especially ones they feel have been shunned and outcast, only to continue with anti-bw, hateful discourse and then have the gall to complain when bw chose to be with men who respect, love and cherish them.
    -MC has been the worst I’ve seen. And I really appreciate people calling people like him out on the nonsense. I have a theory about men like this, which I won’t share on this forum.
    -I say that we deserve to be respected and we should migrate toward men who give the respect – regardless of color.

    islandgirl,
    Thanks and I appreciate your timely comments as well.
    It’s absolutely necessary that BW and PRO-BW supporters CHALLENGE/CONDEMN ANTI-BW BM and ALL ANTI-BW HATERS.
    For some PERVERSE reason MANY think BW should be EVERYONE’S PUNCHING BAG and that we aren’t “WORTHY” of LOVE/RESPECT.
    This LIE has got to be CONDEMNED/DESTROYED EVERY TIME it rears its UGLY head.

    Like


  477. Jasmin, LOL!

    Well….. haha

    But if you REALLY think about it, you will get it. Men who are black women haters disguised as black women lovers equals one thing.

    Laromana,

    I have really enjoyed your comments here as well. You have been right on target and I commend your stance. BW refusing to be punching bags is not “selling out”, it’s being a respectable, intelligent, FEMININE and strong woman.

    Like


  478. islandgirl–

    “But if you REALLY think about it, you will get it.”

    does it kind of rhyme with stingray? sort of like they’re in romantic competition with women. huh….i never thought about that. it’s worth considering further.

    Like


  479. @Jasmin

    I know I’m being petty. What’s this Apollo now?

    Like


  480. What ? Thad banned? Had to be on purpose…

    Anybody ever been “reinstated”? Just curious…

    Like


  481. “Stingray”– BWAH!:-)

    Jas0n,

    I couldn’t find a youtube video, but the Apollo Clown is this face-painted guy who runs people off the stage when they suck during Amateur Night at the Apollo Theater in Harlem. He’s accompanied by a loud siren, and is usually summoned by the audience booing and doing the “get off the stage” wave (which looks like making a windshield wiper motion with your arms).

    Petty is so 2007, man. I’m sure you can do better than that.

    Like


  482. on Fri 5 Nov 2010 at 23:43:04 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @Menelik Charles,

    Thanks for the insight homie, but dont fall for the okey doke…they are running a 2 step hustle,old school, now listen:

    1) In open engagements such as this one, where there are clear standards of rhetoric, the party with the least(person A) interest in finding out what is really going on is going to have the most interest in maintaining control over the perception of their actions, or lack thereof. In order to accomplish this, a careful control of information flow has to be maintained over time with all parties involved. When this control-de-la-flow is interrupted, person A will play the victim or run a smear campaign against their opponent who broke free, in this case person B. Person A will avoid all inquiries to their behavior,attitudes,etc but will claim to know that person B, and all people like person B, are one way or another. Person A has to maintain the image as victim of Person B in order to hide their own malicious natures. Since person A is disconnected from person B, person A has to project everything that they (person A) are guilty of unto person B.

    2) Person A can be easy to detect and obsidian did a hell of a job of doing this. Person A will usually, and only interact with people that mirror their views and attitudes to the rest of the world, and more specifically to person B. They will avoid any and all questions regarding their own merit, or the merit of their claims,etc. Person A tends to have an all or nothing approach to dealing with others, which really hides their selfish streak. Its all about information control,perception management, etc. Notice how capt-sav-a-h*es and white knights get praised for their views….its not because what they say is true, its because what they say reinforces person A’s worldview.

    Person A tends to only try to “shut down” people who try to cooperate and figure things out, this gives them room to move and create drama to feed person B (what is being done to you, and me by extension,via claims that we all hate black women, despite all evidence to the contrary, provided by yourself, myself, and obsidian) and suck them dry like a leech. Person A hopes that person B will disengage because the more person B stays, the more ridiculous person A looks in their false claims. This is why the focus has changed from a certain subset of black women, to how black men hate black women….

    Like


  483. Temple,

    Along those lines. I was thinking more of two initials. I’m not about alledging things, but from my experience with these types of men, they’ve had some things in common. They all are very hostile and very antagonistic toward women. They are very petty and act like women are sterotyped to act toward one another.

    You’re right, it is almost like romantic competition. With these types of men, it feels like you are exchanging comments with a petty girl/woman.

    Not trying to insinuate, but this experience online seems really familiar.

    I really encourage some black men to man up. Be strong. We are not in competition with each other. If you consider me or any other black woman competition, you need to re-evaluate things. And the petty name calling, bringing up women’s fathers when they don’t agree with you, trying to encourage divisiviness between bw and pouting about bw whom have found happiness with someone who treats them with respect and kindness needs to stop!

    Like


  484. Jasmin–

    LOL! yeah, that’s me trying to be discrete.

    Islandgirl–

    i feel your entire post [above]. especially the part about black women NOT being in competition with black men (that sh*t’s so bass akwards).

    Like


  485. Sam:
    “I think it is really weird that some guys, regardless their color, race, class or favorite baseball team, speak about what black women do and why. . .”

    yeah, i admit this mystifies the f*ck out of me. although i don’t stress too much over it. also, many of the ladies commenting on this post have been doing a great job of highlighting some of the motives behind this. . .obsession; giving me a clearer picture of what’s eating at some of these guys.

    still, you can’t deny that their tactics are hilarious.

    Like


  486. @Jasmin

    Oh yeah duh I used to watch that all the time as a kid. When Sinbad hosted I think. With his ugly a** shirts.

    Like


  487. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 01:27:50 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @Menelik Charles,

    the bottomline here is that they want their views,rejections,etc to matter the most of all and anyone who threatens that social order has to be outsted, or simply out talked….and what better way to play with words is their than behind the cloak of being a victim to a group of “big bad black men”….

    Like


  488. wow Golden Arms, I’m surprised you could type that with a straight face.

    Like


  489. whine much? no worries, i’m sure that in your EXTREME emotional state you just got carried away & forgot to stick to the “big bad black man” pretense.

    my advice: it’s best not to FEEL too intensely–especially when those you’re so focused on could care less about your FEELINGS. you don’t want to look weak & pathetic–well, no more than you already do, anyway.

    just saying :- >

    Like


  490. “You made a blanket-statement about bw and NOWHERE in ur comment did u state that you weren’t making a blanket statement nor did you state who you were addressing, so as far as i’m concerned…your comment was ignorant, rude and deserved a response…if you took that as “attitude” whatever that means… so be it…sweetie pie… ”

    Jason says…
    “The prevailing anti-racist wisdom is that white people who take criticism of whites personally are derailing. Does this only apply to WP then?”

    response:

    if I made the statement “white men have small penises…” and a wp came on and stated “not all wm have small penises…my penis isn’t small” is that derailing or are they merely refuting an ignorant statement…???

    Like


  491. Hello, new to the site but have tried to follow this conversation parts I-III.

    Me: bsf, early 30s, professional, etc., gotten my fair share of attention from either white men (professional, usually) or blue collar/unemployed black men. However, absolutely no play from BM of the Blair Underwood/Taye Diggs variety. My conclusion? The BM who tends to be the token negro doesn’t want a black woman. I use to repeat this hypothesis for years. Until I stopped. Why? Because I never put the effort into objectively verifying this heuristic beyond my personal experience. I never developed a method of systematic analysis which is needed if we’re going to take any sociological claim seriously.

    [b]Groupthink and Self-fulfilling prophesies[/b].
    I find it amazing that phrases like “anti-bw racist/hate” has been used ad nauseum (for 2 years on this blog!) to describe “MOST” of anything. Yet, no sufficient data was presented to back it up. The only support for this conclusion is collective suspicion in the form of commenter agreement, which I’m afraid isn’t statistically significant enough to make these claims accurate.

    To be fair, racism- secret or overt, is a wiggly-fish of a construct and very difficult to identify these days. Yet, I’d propose that the energy put into developing a faux-certainty of racism as the culprit for each coincidentally racial, romantic rejection incident is unproductive (at best) and potentially self-injurious (at worst). Studies show that African-American women who compare themselves more frequently to members of the White majority culture have higher rates of depression than African-American women do not.

    Like


  492. the apollo clown can be seen @ 6:11

    Like


  493. menelik, i’m sorry i told you to shut up…but still I think your comment was ignorant…

    Like


  494. I am a french and black women/frenchmen are very common here. They are beautiful, exotic in beauty, and though many experience frenchmen who simply love to be with a black woman or wish to exploit black women, there are many, many more who simply see them as beautiful, loving, and strong in character which is very attractive. We don’t have the same strangeness white americans have in regard to black women. Here, they are considered very beautiful.

    My wife is african-american from Tennessee and they are the most beautiful women i’ve seen in my life there.

    Like


  495. Menelik Charles said,

    “some/many swirling Black women need Black men to oppose their inter-racial relationships for a good number of reasons. ”

    1) I thought this was a joke at first. I think you have an inferiority complex. I mean, seriously, where I live, no one gives a crap about WW/BM. However, when it’s reversed, all the black guys suddenly get angry. Have you watched the news clip where a white man in New York was hospitalized after getting beat up by 6 black guys and getting a piece of concrete thrown at his head because his fiance is black? Have you read Y’s posts about people staring at her in public when she’s out with her white boyfriend? Have you heard of the harassment a BW/WM couple experienced in the military? Black guys like you are such hypocrites. Here, let me give you some statistics from the the U.S. Census Bureau:
    A)
    “According to the 2006 census, 286,000 White female-Black male and 117,000 Black female-White male marriages were recorded. Marital stability studies published on the Education Resources Information Center found that White female-Black male unions are more prone to result in a divorce than White-White marriages are, while Black female-White male marriages show substantially lower rates of divorce than White-White marriages.”

    Like


  496. Menelik Charles

    Sorry if I was a bit too harsh in my post, but I agree with peanut that you need to stop posting nonsense.

    Like


  497. @Kid W/Golden Arms

    the bottomline here is that they want their views,rejections,etc to matter the most of all and anyone who threatens that social order has to be outsted, or simply out talked….and what better way to play with words is their than behind the cloak of being a victim to a group of “big bad black men”….

    Everything that you’re saying could be equally applied to your own arguments. Just replace “big bad black men” with “bitter black women.”

    Your thoughts on this matter are not original. It’s just the old “WE are pure, and the are hopelessly deluded” meme.

    Like


  498. @ Calculator

    I have never written a post about people starring at me while Im with my white “boyfriend”, and never will. The times Ive been out and about with white men I have never noticed anyone looking or sneering at me. When Im out in public with other people Im usually too focused on what Im doing/who Im with to notice who is and isnt looking at me.

    Like


  499. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 05:43:54 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @ King

    when u gonna answer them questions homie? about oppression and all that? your not obligated to…but Im just sayin…

    ******
    Everything that you’re saying could be equally applied to your own arguments. Just replace “big bad black men” with “bitter black women.”
    ********
    did I do that, no, not at all. At no point did I even mention “all american black women oppose IR involving black men” like some poster did,except she claimed black men oppose it, and used cowards who commit murder, and “what she sees” on youtube videos as proof…..

    ********
    Your thoughts on this matter are not original. It’s just the old “WE are pure, and the are hopelessly deluded” meme.
    *********
    prove it, with my prior questions kept in mind without claiming I like originality and sly ad hominems….patna

    Like


  500. Sorry Y. I could’ve sworn I read a post like that on here. My mistake.

    Like


  501. @ Kid W/Golden Arms

    Your question: “How have black men have oppressed black women in a lesser form over the centuries and recent decades?”

    What are you looking for? Do you want me to just post a list of crimes or should it just be only intimidation? Should it only deal with the subject of Black women with White men?

    Please narrow your question just slightly.

    Like


  502. @Calculator

    No problem, just wanted to clear that up:). Carry on…

    Like


  503. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 05:57:24 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @ amarya

    I think you may be on to something about the self fulfilling prophecies and analysis

    ********
    However, absolutely no play from BM of the Blair Underwood/Taye Diggs variety. My conclusion? The BM who tends to be the token negro doesn’t want a black woman. I use to repeat this hypothesis for years.
    ********
    If personal anecdotes mean anything, Im very familiar with a number of bruhs who fit this category and they tend to see their position as a high point in their lives, in that they do not have as many chances to mess up,etc as their white peers. Some dudes have questionable motivations and others are just real chill with it. Depends on the dude, either way, 9 times out of 10 it aint about you or any woman. Some men dont hit their stride in terms of quality of life until 25+ years of age and the dude needs to adjust, granted he aint screwed in the head like a certain minority of dudes out there..

    Like


  504. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 06:03:44 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @ King

    ********
    What are you looking for? Do you want me to just post a list of crimes or should it just be only intimidation?
    ***********
    I am looking for evidence of exactly what you claimed, this whole oppression business is based on supposed cultural and social norms, no? So break down how it is done in the black american community. This aint about what I believe or am looking for, but rather what you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt in the same ,absolute terms that you mentioned, despite what has been noted by menelik, obsidian y yo.

    Like


  505. Blame the media. Seriously. One reason why black women may be seen as the least attractive is that the media rarely shows black women, and when they do, they’re usually light-skinned or mixed.

    Take, for example, the “hot asian chic.” 50 years ago, asian women were not seen as attractive. In fact, the were portrayed as ugly, flat-faced individuals (probably because of WWII). Now, the media portrays asian women in a better light. See how the media affects how the masses view people?

    “It’s not race, it’s the media.”

    Like


  506. Menelik Charles said,

    “Women are the powerful and privileged group in the Black family and community. ”

    Do black females agree with this? Is this true?

    Like


  507. What I claimed (waaaay up the thread) was a simple point of logic. I said this:

    The existence of a more severe form of oppression does not redefine all lesser forms as non-oppression.

    in response to Menelik’s originally posting of videos of Muslim honor killings comparatively, as an example of societies who REALLY oppress their women, when it comes to interracial and other infractions.

    My argument was simply that such an argument is a non-argument, in the same way that a racist liberal could not post a video of the Klan as proof that they are not racist, because they are not as hardcore as the Klansmen they post.

    But, is there pressure/oppression from Black men toward Black women who date interracially? It depends on which Black men you’re talking about. Obviously some do.

    http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-news-cleveland-teen-couple-beaten-after-school-arrests,0,3558920.story

    http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/07/new.york.beating/index.html

    But regardless, the posting of incidents of non-Black men or other cultures, doing “worse” things is completely non sequitur to what Black men do or don’t do. It has no bearing.

    Like


  508. BleuParfumRoses
    “NO OTHER RACE of WOMEN ON THE PLANET, BUT BW, have to CONSTANTLY deal with their SAME RACE MEN PUBLICLY TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.”

    It’s sad, but true. I was absolutely horrified when I came online–about 14 years ago–and first came across some of the nastiest, most hate-filled anti-Black woman propaganda imaginable … and written by self-identified black males! Most of those guys had no further use for Black women, as they had managed to get their hot little hands on the non-BW they’d always wanted anyway. That being the case, they then felt free to not just sever ties with Black women but to publicly trash BW on the internet — where they could reach untold numbers of non-Blacks with their anti-BW smear campaign.
    ——————————————————–

    My experience/sentiments exactly. Black men do not care about bw/wm relationships, as much as they care about their status (ego driven) as the ‘most desired’ group in the dating, marrying process. That’s all they really care about. But going online and witnessing the brutal racially motivated mysoginistic outrages of these self-identified bm was/is horrific. And embarrassing, which points to these behaviors as ‘shaming tactics’.

    Like


  509. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 15:24:06 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @ King
    **************
    But, is there pressure/oppression from Black men toward Black women who date interracially? It depends on which Black men you’re talking about. Obviously some do.
    **************
    Your contradicting yourself here, the act of a few fools out of 17.2 million or so men does not represent the mens oppression towards the women as a group, but simply the act of a few fools who need to get locked up. Oppression often takes a solid structure to grow (usually from violence to status quo) from and a social code that can be enforced by only using memes,shame, socio-economic norms upon those who are oppressed or violate said code. Now show me where black men with the resources, social pull, and organization oppress black women.

    @BleuParfumRoses

    ***********
    “NO OTHER RACE of WOMEN ON THE PLANET, BUT BW, have to CONSTANTLY deal with their SAME RACE MEN PUBLICLY TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY.”
    **********
    Please direct me to the magazines, movies, articles,etc,etc of where black men consistently bash and attack the public image of black women directly and indirectly., ABC specials and all that. Include those articles that imply the sistas aint good enough so we gotta try some other ish. I would say some forms of hip hop, but the most “misogynistic” hip hop has the most number of female fans, women who sign up to be in the videos, actually make the music more popular,etc. Artist Drake has said somethings in his songs about women that can be called “misogynistic” but that dont stop some of the women loving him and being the reason he is so popular. If it was truly oppression, who would sign up in droves to be oppressed? Who would dance at parties to the music of their oppression? This

    Like


  510. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 15:24:51 Kid W/Golden Arms

    **edit:
    (violence to enforce status quo)

    Like


  511. “Your contradicting yourself here, the act of a few fools out of 17.2 million or so men does not represent the mens oppression towards the women as a group, “

    Fine, then please go up the thread and find the place where i said that ALL or even THE MAJORITY of Black men oppress Black women. I’ll save you some time—it’s not there. You are vigorously swinging your limbs at a straw man that you yourself have sloppily erected.

    It’s important when framing an argument to speak to what someone has actually said instead of what you ASSUME was said by briefly reading, then jumping to conclusions.

    Like


  512. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 15:56:41 Kid W/Golden Arms

    @ King

    its on you homie, you said this

    *********
    The existence of honor killings (in other societies) is not a good argument that Black males who do not participate in such extreme forms of patriarchal societal pressure are therefore not exerting any significant societal pressure on their female counterparts.
    *********
    In a response to menelik, implying that black males who dont do honor killings have societal pull to exert other forms of oppression, societal pull implies numbers and a social order built by said males and that the majority of them engage in it, primarily in the context of black women and IR, which is a claim made by other female commenter here.

    ***********
    It’s important when framing an argument to speak to what someone has actually said instead of what you ASSUME was said by briefly reading, then jumping to conclusions.
    ***********
    Conclusions you dont like, no? You go from “black males who dont participate in extreme forms of societal pressure” whom are the majority of males, to “some black males do” when it is brought to your attention the majority of males do not, which contradicts your original reply to menelik, all the while ASSUMING that your point still stands. Since the majority of men dont and never did exert the pressure, how can they, as a group, put societal pressure on the women if they dont have the pull to do so?

    Like


  513. Again, this is due to your poor reading comprehension skills.

    “The existence of honor killings (in other societies) is not a good argument that Black males who do not participate in such extreme forms of patriarchal societal pressure are therefore not exerting any significant societal pressure on their female counterparts.”

    Nowhere in that sentence did I say that the majority of Black men oppress or exert pressure on Black women. If I said that anywhere then please, WHERE IS IT?

    In fact, the above sentence does not even require that any Black men are oppressing women, it’s a logical statement about what the honor killing argument does not rebut. It is not itself a statement saying what most Black men do or don’t do.

    Please read more carefully.

    Like


  514. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 16:30:41 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    Women are the powerful and privileged group in the Black family and community.

    Calculator asked:

    Do black females agree with this? Is this true?

    Menelik asked:

    still waiting on an answer, eh? I doubt you’ll get any that actually centres around the truth. You see, if the women on here answer the question honestly it would mean that at least half of our problems are the responsibility of women.

    This is a public service announcement: don’t hold your breath!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  515. “Women are the powerful and privileged group in the Black family and community.”

    From an economic standpoint, an educational standpoint, and even in many families (absent a father) this may be true, at least based on the statistics.

    But I’m not sure that it’s as true from a dating standpoint.

    Like


  516. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 16:40:52 Menelik Charles

    King,

    just accept the Black family and community is an essentially matriarchal setting, yeah? Moreover, it is traditionally the case that Black mothers, grandmothers, sisters aunts etc have warned i.e. exerted pressure on Black males not to associate in anyway with white females.

    White men, of course, co-signed such pressure in a manner which brought shame to white America.

    Why can’t you just accept you are wrong and move on? Your life, surely, cannot depend on winning every battle, can it? Kid Golden has made his case, and it is a secure one. It is also closed.

    Let go, man! The ladies here love your white-knighting but they are loathed to back a loser.

    Sorry.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  517. “just accept the Black family and community is an essentially matriarchal setting, yeah?”

    Well, my own Black family of origin was not matriarchal, so that flavors my own way of seeing things.

    “Moreover, it is traditionally the case that Black mothers, grandmothers, sisters aunts etc have warned i.e. exerted pressure on Black males not to associate in anyway with white females.”

    None of my female relatives did this at all. How dis you establish that this is traditionally the case? Is there a survey or study that indicates that Black women pressure Black males not to associate with White females in the family setting?

    Where did you get the data that this is any more normal to Black women than are the anti-BW videos on Youtube to Black men?

    Why can’t you just accept you are wrong and move on? Your life, surely, cannot depend on winning every battle, can it? Kid Golden has made his case, and it is a secure one. It is also closed.

    Because you haven’t made your case, and because Kid Golden is completely confused… as are you, if you think that the above exchange displays anything but his utter lack of ability to draw conclusions based on what was actually written.

    So, enough, of that… where are you getting the data that backs up your claims? it’s an honest question.

    Like


  518. And incidentally, I’ve conceded that what you have said holds true in certain areas. My only real question was whether that translates into dating. The data seems to indicate otherwise.

    Shall I retrieve the data?

    Like


  519. islandgirl says,
    Laromana,

    I have really enjoyed your comments here as well. You have been right on target and I commend your stance. BW refusing to be punching bags is not “selling out”, it’s being a respectable, intelligent, FEMININE and strong woman.

    laromana says,
    You’re welcome, islandgirl. I feel the same about your comments and those of other intelligent BW on this board.

    We must keep confronting/condemning ANTI-BW HATE/HATERS and do our best to DESTROY ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.

    Like


  520. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 17:36:15 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    just accept the Black family and community is an essentially matriarchal setting, yeah?

    King replied:

    Well, my own Black family of origin was not matriarchal, so that flavors my own way of seeing things.

    Menelik says:

    I don’t recall ever making reference to YOUR family. Moreover, what “flavours” your way “of seeing things” hardly challenges the general truth of the matter now, does it?

    Menelik said:

    it is traditionally the case that Black mothers, grandmothers, sisters aunts etc have warned i.e. exerted pressure on Black males not to associate in anyway with white females.

    King replied:

    None of my female relatives did this at all. How did you establish that this is traditionally the case? Is there a survey or study that indicates that Black women pressure Black males not to associate with White females in the family setting?

    Menelik says:

    sir, you are either a joke or a disgrace: maybe even both!

    king said:

    where did you get the data that this is any more normal to Black women than are the anti-BW videos on Youtube to Black men?

    Menelik says:

    I am no longer at liberty to answer any of your questions since you know or care little about the history of which I speak. Like I said: you’re either a joke, a disgrace or both!

    king said:

    you haven’t made your case, and because Kid Golden is completely confused… as are you, if you think that the above exchange displays anything but his utter lack of ability to draw conclusions based on what was actually written.

    So, enough, of that… where are you getting the data that backs up your claims? it’s an honest question.

    Menelik says:

    yeah, but your existence is an absolute travesty!

    Good day!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  521. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 18:04:07 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    Women are the powerful and privileged group in the Black family and community.

    king replied:

    from an economic standpoint, an educational standpoint, and even in many families (absent a father) this may be true, at least based on the statistics.

    Menelik asks:

    so from THREE separate “standpoints” 1) the economic 2) the educational and 3) the family… and yet, you’re only willing to concede that what I’ve said “maybe true”?

    You leave a bad feeling in one’s gut, man!

    King said:

    But I’m not sure that it’s as true from a dating standpoint.

    Menelik says:

    we’ll I am absolutely certain that men generally 1) approach women 2) ask women on a dates 3) pay for dates 4) ask for an additional dates 5) do all they can to impress a woman so she does not reject him.

    Doubtless, you’ll require statistical evidence to support the above because you’re just that type of guy. That is, the kind whose white-knighting of the most-masculine; physically aggressive; arrogant and contemptuous, group of females on earth, conceals a deep self-loathing, and social insecurity.

    Just saying.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  522. “I don’t recall ever making reference to YOUR family. Moreover, what “flavours” your way “of seeing things” hardly challenges the general truth of the matter now, does it?”

    I’m sorry, I thought that you would understand that this was partly in answer to your question:

    “Why can’t you just accept you are wrong and move on

    I suppose you missed the connection. But my apologies, nonetheless. :-)

    “King replied:

    None of my female relatives did this at all. How did you establish that this is traditionally the case? Is there a survey or study that indicates that Black women pressure Black males not to associate with White females in the family setting?

    Menelik says:

    sir, you are either a joke or a disgrace: maybe even both!”

    (Sigh) Oh, You disappoint me, here, M. So in other words… you don’t have any actual data? You’re probably using your own family dysfunction as the model for Blackness everywhere… if this is not the case, then stop playing the fool and GO FETCH THE DATA. How else do you think broad cultural trends can be arrived at? It’s really not that complicated.

    “I am no longer at liberty to answer any of your questions since you know or care little about the history of which I speak. Like I said: you’re either a joke, a disgrace or both!

    HAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Oh me! Surely you must be joking! So, because I have asked you for data to support your steaming goulash of historic quakery and inept illogic, you have now declared that you will not answer… out of Outrage??? HAHAhaa!!! I must say, but you are droll, at that!

    But seriously now, you’ve had your little joke, and I have been kind enough to acknowledge it. Now, cease your stalling, and please come back with something concrete so that we can discuss your theories.

    I am very interested to understand your perspective! I do think that you’re onto something with your observation that more matriarchy has been imposed upon the Black American culture than in many others. Or did you mean that this is true in all of Africa, as well? Well, no matter. I just want to know how that translates into dating scenarios.

    I don’t even know, for certain, that you’re wrong on every point. I only wish to discuss your points with you because they are interesting. Of course they are meaningless if there is no data to back them up. That is why I asked, you see.

    Like


  523. Ah, sorry Menelik, I missed your second post, I’m reading it now.

    Like


  524. Menelik asks:

    so from THREE separate “standpoints”
    1) the economic
    2) the educational and
    3) the family…

    and yet, you’re only willing to concede that what I’ve said “maybe true”?

    I say “may” because I am only listening to your side of it right now, and there may be another side to it that would shed more light. In other words I’m allowing for the possibility that our observations may be incomplete. Does this disturb you?

    You leave a bad feeling in one’s gut, man!

    Maybe you should try more fiber?

    we’ll I am absolutely certain that men generally
    1) approach women
    2) ask women on a dates
    3) pay for dates
    4) ask for an additional dates
    5) do all they can to impress a woman so she does not reject him.

    Well yes, perhaps traditionally. But I would wager that if you asked many of the women on this very board, many of them have:

    1) Either approached, encouraged or arranged to meet a romantic interest.
    2) Asked a man out on a date (even if they don’t always call it a date)
    3) Have paid for part or all of a date, or shared in the costs of an ongoing dating relationship.
    4) Have done all that they can do to impress a guy so that he doesn’t reject her.

    I mean, these day, it seems a lot more a shared responsibility, although I admit that it still falls more on men than on women. I see that.

    But, how does all of this make the point for a Black Matriarchal society? Why aren’t you talking about Slavery and Jim Crow and it’s effects on the Black family? Isn’t that where your true argument lies?

    “Doubtless, you’ll require statistical evidence to support the above because you’re just that type of guy. That is, the kind whose white-knighting of the most-masculine; physically aggressive; arrogant and contemptuous, group of females on earth, conceals a deep self-loathing, and social insecurity.”

    Well no. But I would ask for statistics that prove that Black females are “The most-masculine; physically aggressive; arrogant and contemptuous, group of females on earth.”

    Can you see why I would ask that?

    BTW, when you say that, do you mean

    1) ALL Black females
    2) Most Black females or
    3) A minority of Black females?

    Looking forward to your reply. Fascinating!

    Like


  525. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 19:51:17 Menelik Charles

    Menelik said:

    Moreover, it is traditionally the case that Black mothers, grandmothers, sisters aunts etc have warned i.e. exerted pressure on Black males not to associate in anyway with white females.

    King said

    none of my female relatives did this at all. How did you establish that this is traditionally the case?

    you don’t have any actual data? You’re probably using your own family dysfunction as the model for Blackness everywhere…

    Menelik replies:

    and you were using your own female relatives as a model for what? my female relatives play no whatsoever part in this discussion.

    King said:

    if this is not the case, then stop playing the fool and GO FETCH THE DATA.

    Menelik says:

    you really are a joke, aren’t you? Perhaps you’d like me to “fetch the data” on how many Black females were sexually coerced into clandestine relationships with white males during the 1950s, yes?

    Is this possible?

    No.

    Because statistics are not the only means of data, as you really ought to know (but appear not to). Qualitative data is every bit as useful as quantative data. Oral historical accounts constitute the former. To this end, there are numerous documented accounts of mothers (and other older female relatives) instructing sons NEVER to so much as look in the direction of white females.

    Now if you want to dispute this then by all means, go ahead. I expect nothing more from you.

    Seriously, there is no basis for any further exchanges between. Things aint right, man!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  526. MC says,
    “The most-masculine; physically aggressive; arrogant and contemptuous, group of females on earth.”

    laromana says,
    MC, you have the nerve to CONTINUE SPEWING ASSININE ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and you wonder why the SELF RESPECTING BW (PRO-BW SUPPORTERS) on this board are CONFRONTING/CONDEMNING you.

    Get a life AH.

    Like


  527. King–

    Menelik & crew don’t need no stinkin data.

    haven’t you been paying attention? black women rule the world. they’ve murdered, enslaved, raped, looted & enacted oppressive laws, all in the name of empowering themselves.

    IT’S TIME FOR A REVOLUTION!

    who’s got the rope?

    Like


  528. laromana,

    Don’t take those comments seriously. Any women who disagrees with him and demands respect is all those things mentioned. Those who do agree with him are ultra feminine Cinderella fairy princesses. Sorry, but that’s not how things work.

    Personally, I’ve never in life been accused of being masculine and I’m sure none of the other ladies here have either. If you know that doesn’t apply to you and you consider the source – then it’s all cool. No worries.

    Temple,

    lol. Why bother? This isn’t about exchanging opinions and ideas through civil discourse. It’s agenda filled and anyone who gets in the way of that agenda is subject to nonsense.

    Like


  529. “you really are a joke, aren’t you? Perhaps you’d like me to “fetch the data” on how many Black females were sexually coerced into clandestine relationships with white males during the 1950s, yes?

    Is this possible?

    No.

    So then, logically, would you make a point that MOST Black females were coerced into clandestine relationships with white males during the 1950s, if you didn’t have the data… for whatever the reason????

    Are you really this stupid? You make broad accusation about an entire ethic gender of people, and you don’t have one decimal point of data to back it up?

    Oral historical accounts constitute the former blah blah blah…

    Who’s oral history??? The oral history or your neighborhood? Of your family? Your own oral history?? Talk about wading in the dummy pool! This is the “science” and “history” you come up with? Are you serious, or are you trying, once again, to entertain me again with your dry british humor? HAHAHAHAHA, what a joke you turned out to be!!! I truly expected you to be smarter than some stormfront dope, but you’re at about the same level of intelligence.

    Seriously, there is no basis for any further exchanges between. Things aint right, man!

    Based on the dialogue thus far, I would tend to agree with you.

    -I cannot abide cowards, bullies, and men of false manners, and low character, who seek to defame Black women. Such men wholly disgust me, with their pretense of “racial awareness” while all the while undermining and eroding the very foundation of Black culture.

    Just saying,

    Good day!

    Like


  530. Has no-one here taken a simple Bio course and retained the information?

    In a world without social constructs and purely animal based instincts, this would happen more often.

    Also, this article has a undertone of white males only having ulterior-motives for dating black women. Yet, the same could be said for black males when/if they get rich/famous. White trophy wives. It goes both ways. In Africa, many white missionaries have been raped and/or killed. Also, you are only expressing and overly simplified AMERICAN view, as Arabic cultures and Africans did this to each other well before Europeans. You forget the Arabs literally invented the slave trade in Africa.

    Please be more… on point.

    Like


  531. on Sat 6 Nov 2010 at 21:37:42 Menelik Charles

    @Logic,

    please, you know very little of how missionaries fair in African: I do! Few people are treated with more reverence and respect than Christian missionaries in Africa.

    Like I said, I know. So stop lying, ok?

    Thanks.

    Like


  532. @ Logic Zero

    “You forget the Arabs literally invented the slave trade in Africa.”

    Perhaps it is you who has forgotten that the Egyptians were trading slaves in Africa long before the Arabs.

    Have you not taken a simple World History course and retained the information??

    Like


  533. This post is not about who started slavery or how many missionaries have been raped.

    Like


  534. @Logic:

    “You forget the Arabs literally invented the slave trade in Africa.”

    Wow. You actually wrote this. You actually became a cliche! This argument is answered IN THIS VERY BLOG – as well as millions of other places on the net:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/the-arab-trader-argument/

    Like


  535. A very interesting and fascinating read by the African female writer Kola Boof in that link Menelik.

    In all the hundreds of comments in this thread about Black women and white men. This is probably the most insightful and informative.

    I may not agree with all of her analysis or “tips”. But very few of the Black women commenting on this topic seem (even in their own blogs) to offer anything more than a superficial comprehension of what is termed “swirling” or “inter-racial relationships”. Let alone authentic “Black on Black” relationships.

    Which in essence is what I think a lot of these comments seem to miss. How is it even possible to uphold and praise what are considered “authentic” Black women/white men relationships if you cannot at the same time uphold and praise considered authentic Black on Black or even white on white relationships?

    Like


  536. on Sun 7 Nov 2010 at 15:22:26 Menelik Charles

    @Bro Kwamla,

    I think the major problem is that those Black women on here who date inter-racially (young sister Y aside) seem:

    1) not to be advancing a free-for all philosophy on the subject;

    2) not to be defending a Black man’s right to inter-racially date and:

    3) not to be promoting a wider inter-racial understanding and harmony.

    No. What is promoted instead are racial alliances in which the masses of Black men represents their opponents. White men, by contrast, are represented as innocent on-lookers or participants, in the swirling game. The white man is always innocent while Black men are always guilty. No change here then!

    And you wonder why I suggest these dames have unresolved issues with Black fathers and/or in previous Black-on-Black relationships?

    Wonder no more.

    I say that if they speak of Black male opposition to their mixed unions then they must speak out against ALL opposition to mixed unions and this would MOSTLY include Black women’s opposition to Black men dating inter-racially. It will never happen because Black men have always been inter-racial dating’s biggest victims NOT Black women.

    The swirlers on here will speak of the ‘death of Black love’ when, for example, the white minority ethnic group with whom they are involved have inter-racial marriage rates of near or over 50%! Not a word about the ‘death’ of Jewish love. How very strange!

    Death, decay, and demoralisation, is only ever mentioned or alluded to when Blacks are involved with the obvious, knee-jerk, societal, assumption that (once again!) the Black man is almost entirely responsible for the pathology.

    And so I ask again: and you wonder why I say these women have have unresolved issues with their Black fathers?

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  537. I am one of those white men who have a black woman. Now I know why: I have seen all the Battlestar Galactica episodes at least twice (including all the spin of stuff and the 1978 and 80 series), I have no style, no game, no golds and basically doesn’t give the s**t about it, or what other may think. In my free time I like to manipulate nude pics of Sarah Palin.

    And I don’t think black women are sexy, I just picked her because of her intelligence. We White men just don’t think black women are sexy.

    And since it’s soon Christmas:

    Like


  538. on Sun 7 Nov 2010 at 18:30:50 Menelik Charles

    @Bro Obsidian,

    9if you get this message…I hope your website ‘s up ‘n’ about soon.

    Like


  539. @ MC *sorry, i don’t know how to do the quotes on here* but you wrote:

    Menelik Charles
    @Bro Kwamla,

    I think the major problem is that those Black women on here who date inter-racially (young sister Y aside) seem:

    1) not to be advancing a free-for all philosophy on the subject;

    2) not to be defending a Black man’s right to inter-racially date and:

    3) not to be promoting a wider inter-racial understanding and harmony.

    I disagree with this statement because I think anyone should be able to date and marry whoever they wish. I also think black men have every right to have any preference as well.

    But I don’t know who you are specifically speaking about except that you excluded one person. I haven’t gotten to read all the posts so maybe I missed someone saying these things. Could you please point me to where someone made mention or alluded to your conclusion on this matter? Thanks.

    Like


  540. “-I cannot abide cowards, bullies, and men of false manners, and low character, who seek to defame Black women. Such men wholly disgust me, with their pretense of “racial awareness” while all the while undermining and eroding the very foundation of Black culture.”

    Thank you! This is the best response thus far. Not only do men like this disgust me with all of the “militant black awareness”. They are also the most degrading and divisive men ever. Do they even like women?

    He’s always bringing up father issues. Sorry to disappoint, but my father treats me like a princess. Do you want women who disagree with you to have bad realtions with their fathers? Would that make you feel better about your assinine theories? Wjen backed into a corner, this excuse is used.

    The only unresolved issues I have are with black men such as this.

    Like


  541. *when

    Also, a random darker skinned black woman sent me a message via one of the social networking sites stating that she believes that some black men hate to see black women being unified. I didn’t believe her and somewhat refuted her, but now thinking about one bm on this site, that may be true. Just a thought.

    Like


  542. Do any of you think that possibly some of these issues are not solely race related but sex related?

    Like


  543. When I say sex, I mean sexism. What comes first? Racism towards black women or sexism?

    Like


  544. Was ‘Eve’ a black woman? There is just no way all of this hatred and malice towards black women is purely a modern day/post modern social construct. wow.

    Like


  545. @ Islandgirl

    I have always seen Black unity / Black social progress as goals that Black men and women achieved together. I have never felt comfortable with the idea of dividing Blackness along gender lines… as if we don’t have enough REAL battles left to fight.

    A house divided against itself cannot stand. This if the work of such men: to weaken the Black community from within, in hopes of having their pick in the boneyard of their fallen betters. These are the jackals of our solidarity.

    I would not waste my time or trouble on kitchen slaves who do the will of their White supremacist masters—like curs, whining for the scraps from the table, and instead receiving swift kicks in due course. Fools and and friends of fools, I say.

    Like


  546. This blog isn’t what it used to be😦

    Like


  547. on Mon 8 Nov 2010 at 02:57:55 Dr. Vagrant X

    Long(ish) time lurker, but first time commenter. I’ve got to agree with MerriMay, this blog is getting kinda crazy. I’m not going to name any names (as I’m sure you’re well aware of who’s getting a little out of hand, Abagond), but, seriously, some of these recent comments are just too ridiculous to believe.

    Like


  548. @ IslandGirl

    “The only unresolved issues I have are with black men such as this”

    nicely put. i’ve been pretty horrified at the direction this thread has taken and i hope it hasn’t been too hurtful to you and others.

    @ abagond

    i know you don’t claim to provide a ‘safe space’ but, really, has this not gone far enough? don’t let this become yet another blog where WOC commenters are driven away.

    Like


  549. [please]

    Like


  550. islandgirl says,
    laromana,
    Don’t take those comments seriously. Any women who disagrees with him and demands respect is all those things mentioned. Those who do agree with him are ultra feminine Cinderella fairy princesses. Sorry, but that’s not how things work.
    Personally, I’ve never in life been accused of being masculine and I’m sure none of the other ladies here have either. If you know that doesn’t apply to you and you consider the source – then it’s all cool. No worries.

    laromana says,
    islandgirl, thanks for your kind concern.
    Although I consider all of MC’s comments (and those of others like him) to be IRRELEVANT, ANTI-BW GARBAGE, I still believe he must be CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED for PROMOTING ANTI-BW HATE/LIES.

    Like


  551. I have an anecdote: when I was young (20), me and my best friend went to London for a holiday. In a nightclub, a black woman showed interest in us. After the club was closed, we went queueing for taxi. My friend and the black woman (who was actually dutch, if I remember correctly) where hugging and kissing when suddenly a black, drunk, middle-aged man approaches us and says very loudly: “black woman with a white man, I’m very jealous!”. Mind you, that was my first time abroad, so our jaws dropped, like wtf? But the black woman just shouted at him: “PISS OFF!” LOL. Problem solved.😀

    Like


  552. abagond, nice new picture. Looks like a couple I know, from NYC. *checks link* Looks like this couple is also from NYC. Very hipster.

    Like


  553. @Natasha. I agree. Man, I love that woman’s hair!

    Like


  554. And, um, me and my friend, we’re not gay! LOL

    Like


  555. @Hannu

    But the black woman just shouted at him: “PISS OFF!” LOL. Problem solved.

    lol. That’s London town.
    Something similar would happen in Paris, just more graphic. “Va te faire foutre, espece de connard!”

    Like


  556. “A house divided against itself cannot stand. This if the work of such men: to weaken the Black community from within, in hopes of having their pick in the boneyard of their fallen betters. These are the jackals of our solidarity.

    I would not waste my time or trouble on kitchen slaves who do the will of their White supremacist masters—like curs, whining for the scraps from the table, and instead receiving swift kicks in due course. Fools and and friends of fools, I say.”

    King,

    Another eloquent comment addressing men such as this. Such men are fullfilling (or trying to) the dreams of those who wish the Black community to weaken and divide.

    “Carlton-esq” kitchen slaves are bad enough. But ones who operate under the guise of “enlightened and racially empowered” are the worst of all. Having a over the top obession with dark women does NOT equate to black empowerment. It’s just a cover up for other issues.

    I appreciate men like you who are TRUELY interested in uplifting the community. Kudos!

    Rayuela,

    I was also “horrified” by some of the comments. But then considered the source, and realize what it is all about. I thank you for your concern for me and other’s whom you think may be affected. I address this person because I don’t want some ‘lurker’ to believe the nonsense that he is spewing. And I’m so glad that others are doing the same. I do agree with your comment to Abagond. This blog may not be a ‘safe place’, but I think that he is very pro-bw and appreciates bw. So it suprises me that this type of commentary is permitted. *shrugs*

    Laromana,

    I understand what you are doing as I am trying to do the same. It’s just good that most men are not him irl.

    Though I don’t take him seriously, the thing that is the most disturbing is questioning women who disagree with him relationship with our fathers. Though I and probably most women have great ones with their dad’s, for some women, this may be a very sore and sensitive area. It is a VERY low blow. It’s just like me saying that people who disagree with me must be crackheads. One has nothing to do with the other.

    Like


  557. I think that Menelik Charles has a legitimate fear. He wants black women not to date non-black guys so that he has a “deeper” dating pool.

    He tries to appeal to black women’s solidarity, so that they would settle for less, ie. HIM.

    But it’s a wide open world and less and less people are listening to his desperate calling…

    Like


  558. @Olufemi

    LOL! Unfortunately for an uneducated oaf like me, I had to use the Google translator for that, but it was well worth it, LOL!

    It would never cross my mind to comment anybody else’s choice of partner! Why the hell would it concern me? Live and let live, whites, black, gays, lesbians…

    Let love rule!

    Like


  559. islangirl says,
    Laromana,

    I understand what you are doing as I am trying to do the same. It’s just good that most men are not him irl.

    Though I don’t take him seriously, the thing that is the most disturbing is questioning women who disagree with him relationship with our fathers. Though I and probably most women have great ones with their dad’s, for some women, this may be a very sore and sensitive area. It is a VERY low blow. It’s just like me saying that people who disagree with me must be crackheads. One has nothing to do with the other.

    laromana says,
    I agree with you completely islandgirl. Because of EVERY BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTER who has CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE on this post, readers will know that they MUST REJECT ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.

    Like


  560. […] with a white man is something to “aspire” to, LMAO).  A commenter by the name of Chuck speculated that white men (as a group) may be innately less attracted to black women than they are other races of women, and visa versa.  While others argued that racialized beauty […]

    Like


  561. I don’t care what some “group” says. If I’m attracted to a black woman, then I’m attracted to a black woman. It’s nobody’s business except hers and mine.

    Nuff said!

    Like


  562. i’ve yet to see my asian female friend date an asian guy…

    Like


  563. now if she were a bw only dating wg’s (and not even cute ones @ that)….just imagine…

    Like


  564. Interesting! I am married to a black lady from Nigeria. I didn’t marry her because she was black — I am open minded and accepting of all people.

    It was a huge mistake. First of all I was deceived by her and her family and secondly once I got to know the real person our priorities and values were different.

    Nigerians are by and large extremely prejudiced. They do not like many aspects of US culture and society and as a result are only comfortable in the company of other Nigerians. Makes the relationship with my family and friends difficult. She has caused my daughter to not talk to me for two years now.

    Her behavior has resulted in the loss of friendship of other Nigerians, so it isn’t just my opinion.

    I know and have encountered many black white marriages which are successful by any measure. The incidence of a US white man marrying a Nigerian woman is rare — perhaps I’m the only one. If there are others i’d like to talk to them.

    Like


  565. Abagond: Where did you get the photo you placed next this post? Are they models?! Such an attractive couple!

    Like


  566. O.:

    Click on the picture and you will see where I got it. I believe they are modelling clothes in this shot but they were a couple at the time the picture was taken. In any case it seems way truer to life than the picture I had from “Something New”.

    Like


  567. i liked the picture w/ jourdann dunn and that guy on the bench

    Like


  568. I have read this post and all others relating to this topic, and I sincerely feel it is my duty to go to bat for those white men who have an afinity for black women but do not fit the description of those who generally would.
    I want to begin by saying that much of what you said is true and that for whatever ignorant foolish reasons they have, a lot of white men are just not interested in dating black woman. I am not one of these such men.
    As long as I can remember, I have been much more attracted to and had more in common with black women than any other race. Being from an intergrated urban community, I have thankfully had ample opportunity to date black women. I have always had style and what you might call “swagger” and been blessed with good enough looks to draw attention from women of all races. For whatever reason, black women from my local community have always taken an interest in me, however, in my time attending college (I am now a senior), it has occurred to me that a lot of black women from less socially forward communities are not open to the idea of dating a white guy. Please forgive me if I begin to sound a little disdainful from this point on because I have an unpleasent situation with black female I was interested in recently. While this situation has not turned me away from black women in any way, it has certainly enlightened me. Ithas forced me to think more deeply about the issues of a relationship in which a white man dates a black woman and why it seems to happen so rarely.
    From my own observation and experience I have found that most black women outside of my local community will not take an approach from a white man seriously. Black women stereotype white men even those who are good looking and dress nicely as having no game so they blow the approach off. Accordingly, I have notice that a lot of black women seem tobecome more attracted to and open to flirtatious conversation with white men when they intoxicated. Those like myself who persist and prove they have both game and something in common with these women still have much more to overcome though. First of all is the overwhelming stigma and judgement (from the black community especially), they know they are bound to face if the situation gets serious. Second is their own personal history and education of how white men are. I have had even the most intelligent of black women whom I have known in college certify actions or behavior as “a black thing” or act as though I am completely ignorant of african american and black culture.
    I believe this can be overcome by simply putting in the time and proving you are truly worth her time. However, and this has happened to me on more than one occasion, I have found that the one thing a white man may not be able to overcome is what I call “the prince charming factor”. A white man will always be a black woman’s plan B even if you sweep them off of their feet because they are hoping that some intelligent handsome black man is out there somewhere waiting to do the same.

    Like


  569. I agree with most of the points you make abagond as to why black women and white men rarely date/marry each other. But I dont agree that the skin colour or the way the black women looks doesnt make a difference because it often does. You mention the one drop rule and how the kids will be black. But u.k statistics show that white men are 25% more likely to marry a mixed race woman than a black woman. From my observations they are normally happy to date a woman mixed with black who looks almost white like nicole richie partly perhaps because the children will generally look white and would be seen as white in many countries outside u.s.a. That aside I agree with you that the reason why black women and white men don’t date often is because they just don’t tend to be interested in each other for various reasons. White men need to stop trying to put black women in a box and just view them as a woman rather than as a token black woman, which they often seem incapable of doing.

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  570. “From my observations they are normally happy to date a woman mixed with black who looks almost white like nicole richie partly perhaps because the children will generally look white and would be seen as white in many countries outside u.s.a. ”

    They would also generally be seen as white in the US as well. Nicole Richie definitely is. Don’t be fooled. Those who (erroneously) claim that the One Drop Rule is all pervasive in the US are usually those who want it to be (a self-fulfilling prophecy strategy).

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  571. Dear heartbroken: most black women would no longer care about meeting the ‘ideal black man’ if an exceptional white man who didn’t make assumptions about black women came along.

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  572. heartbroken says,
    From my own observation and experience I have found that most black women outside of my local community will not take an approach from a white man seriously. Black women stereotype white men even those who are good looking and dress nicely as having no game so they blow the approach off.
    Second is their own personal history and education of how white men are. I have had even the most intelligent of black women whom I have known in college certify actions or behavior as “a black thing” or act as though I am completely ignorant of african american and black culture.
    I believe this can be overcome by simply putting in the time and proving you are truly worth her time. However, and this has happened to me on more than one occasion, I have found that the one thing a white man may not be able to overcome is what I call “the prince charming factor”. A white man will always be a black woman’s plan B even if you sweep them off of their feet because they are hoping that some intelligent handsome black man is out there somewhere waiting to do the same.

    laromana says,
    heartbroken, although I empathize with you about the negative experiences you’ve had with SOME BW in YOUR community, I think you need to RESIST the temptation to make GENERALIZATIONS based on your LIMITED EXPERIENCES with BW

    ALL BW DO NOT THINK ALIKE when it comes to how the view WM.

    For example, MOST NON-AA BW (eg. African BW, Afrolatina BW, West Indian/Other Carribean BW, etc.) and MANY AA BW are OPEN to being in SERIOUS DATING and/or MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIPS with WM and SOME PREFER WM/NON-BM.

    MOST NON-AA BW/MANY AA BW view WM as INDIVIDUALS and DON’T APPLY NARROW STEREOTYPES to them (eg. WM have “no game”, WM completely ignorant of african american and black culture”, etc.).

    BW are INDIVIDUALS and as you get to KNOW us, you’ll LEARN that, LIKE NON-BW, WE’RE NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN.

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  573. @heartbroken–

    Black women stereotype white men even those who are good looking and dress nicely as having no game so they blow the approach off. Accordingly, I have notice that a lot of black women seem tobecome more attracted to and open to flirtatious conversation with white men when they intoxicated. Those like myself who persist and prove they have both game and something in common with these women still have much more to overcome though.

    I am a black woman, but if I were you, I wouldn’t waste my time for a second with those black women who believe that a man having “game” or “swagger” is any criteria for a future mate. IMO, those are low-minded women.

    You sound like you want a serious relationship, so it’s sad that you seem to be attracted to those kinds of women from “less socially forward communities.” There are many socially-exposed black women from all ethnic groups these days who don’t require a white man to have “game.” There is too much “game”-playing that black American women endure already and for any black woman to require game from any man is simply ridiculous.

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  574. Wow, some of the comments here are quite unbelievable! I imagine or assume that many of the commenters here are 30+ years old.

    What a difference a generation or two can make.

    The dating scene is quite different for people born in the mid to late eighties and early nineties. This is a generalization (and I am speaking purely from my experiences of course), but people from this particular generation don’t really care about interracial dating at all. It’s pretty much a non issue.

    Looking at all of these posts has made me happy that I was born when I was.

    That is all I have to say. Peace.

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  575. Hello, everyone!

    I’d just like to state for the record that I’m a mixed woman(African-American, Scottish & Native America), age 37, that’s married to a white man. No offense to anyone, BUT I have always been attracted to white men. I have no idea why, nor do I care why…it just IS! Yes, I have dated black men ( 2 to be exact) and they just didn’t do it for me.

    I think for me, the issue at hand is less about “color” and “race” ( bogus social contstruct that it is) and more about cultural simiarites. In my experiences, most of the black men that have been into me ( and there have been many!), just aren’t into the same things that I am. I love rock & roll music, foreign films, wine tastings and museums. Sadly, when I’d bring up any of the aforementioned as a date night option to my black suitors they were like WTF?!

    Oh, and WTF is up with this talk about “game”?! What are we, in high school?! Is that SERIOUSLY even a real trait people are looking for in a mate, LOL?! My hubby could be classified as somewhat of a nerd..but SO CAN I , I guess?!
    I have a high IQ and was in honors classes all my life, I guess I was destined to be somewhat nerdy, lol. He is a photographer/ music promoter and I am back in school for Nursing, with the intent on obtaining my masters so as to become a Nurse Practitioner. I most certainly am not ” social climbing” or seeking “financial security” by marrying him! Hell, he grew up on a farm in Wisconsin, whereas I grew up in a suburb of a metroploitan city in an affluent white neighborhood. Love is love, guys! He “gets” me and I “get” him…that’s really all there is to it!

    Bright Blessing,
    ~Arcadia~

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  576. on Thu 6 Jan 2011 at 17:17:49 Menelik Charles

    @ Arcadia73,

    well said, dear; and not a word dissing Black men or promoting white men as saviors. gone on ya, lady!

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  577. @ Arcadia73…

    well said! I am also of mixed race and my husband happens to be white. Your statement is very similar to the way I feel about this whole issue. 😉

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  578. on Thu 6 Jan 2011 at 18:20:28 Menelik Charles

    @ Arcadia73,

    a meant good on ya, lady!

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  579. […] of color, especially androphillic women of color, may not be as willing to date white people partly because white people are way too often not only oblivious to our privilege, but actively […]

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  580. There was no massive incidents of White men raping Black women in the South during slavery; that is essentially a myth. The type of rape you describe was very rare. Black and Hispanic men are actually much more likely to rape than White or Asian men.

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  581. @Shawn

    Your comment desrves a big side eye.

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  582. Interesting fact:Whilst black women and white males marriages might be rare when they do marry they are less likely to end up in divorce than black male white female marriages.

    I live in the U.K and in comparison to the U.S black female white male marriages are indeed more common. But I wish people would stop using the U.K as an example, because english white men are not normally into pursuing black women. Their ideal looks wise is normally cheryl cole or abigail clancy.

    Other nationalities including swedish, german and italian men white men view black women as more exotic and attractive than english men do.

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  583. To the person that made the remark about white Men not wanting Black Kids because of the Social Problems they faced. Screw You.

    The last time i check a 1/2 Black Child was/is President of the United States.

    I heard that crap in School in new Englend in the 50’s and 60’s. In the Army at work etc, etc.

    Pass for this, pass for that. Good hair, Bad Hair, No Hair.

    The only place i have not heard it is where i have lived for the past 10 years Hawaii.

    In the 10 years i have lived in Hawaii, I have seen in the normal Traffic pattern of my life. 27 Black Women with White either Husbands or Boyfriends. In every stage of Courtship or Marriage. White Men with their Black Girl friends or Wifes and a few cases kids, in a couple of cases grade school.

    findings. All 27 Couples where decently dressed 9this is Hawaii), All where Clean, All the Kids where clean and well nurished. All the Couples had at least one Nice Car. All where in a place where it Cost money to be. Store, Water Park, Wal-Mart, Costco, Sears, or Doctors Office, Church.

    This is Hawaii and all appeared to be in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines, All the males and most of the females. In a couple of cases it looked like the Wife was in the Service and the Husband was not (Not saying he had never been).

    All where Civil and all where getting along. Several where just flat In Love. All appeared to have recently gotton some and where planing on getting some more. A couple of the women where way PG.

    how do i know this. 1. I am in a mixed race marriage for 24+years, Wife is white, I am different things, We also have a 15 year age spread, 42-26, now 65-49, and tow grown kids who mostly are considered White but don’t purposely pass and know and honor their roots.

    Having grown up in a land where Color is Not Seen First if at all, and Sunday is far from the Whitest Day Of The Week at The Mormon Church.

    Lastly all looked like they where Educated. They will have jobs after the Service Years are over.

    The secouns Reason is i study odd Behavior patterns as a hobby,

    I am a Pert (thats not an expert but a person who knows a lot about a subject). on Handicapped Sex and Amputee Sex.

    The White Man Black Women thing i just happened to run accross about 10 years ago and cought my interest. You cannot tell Mixed Blood Kids who are by them selfs which Parent is Black and which Parent is White.

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  584. One thing I may have over looked is that today more so then when I was in Grade School and erly life, Females are much more likely to make the 1st move, now then then.

    Shyness and fear of rejection is from both sides.

    Guess Whos Coming To Dinner happened in Two Homes not just one, but the White Movie Makers never cared what Sidneys Parents thought.

    Today is only different some what. Far from in total.

    i have asked people if they owuld Rather their Daughter or Son could Merry a Black person that could take them to the Temple or a White Person that could Not, or Would not for any reason..

    Some said the Black person but where lyeing through their teeth. Other said the White Person as Race trumpted every thing. Race and White being a Massive Oxy Moron.

    Some said the most honest answer that they hoped a white person would and could, but they would favor a Temple Marriage Regardless of Color.

    Some said I pray i just never have to answer tht questio.

    Purest of any Race are the same as Pureist of the White Race. Its a two way street.

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  585. Shawn, don’t be ridiculous. Where did all of those mulattos come from?

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  586. Being White is a a result of your Conception and thanks to some people like me, Your Birth.

    Being White does Not make you special in anyway, never has and never will.

    Also if the Color of your skin is what you base your self image on, you have some issuses that I can’t help you with, regrdless of my phyco babble training.

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  587. Mostly it is an older group of people because the younger group of people do not really seam to care, one way or the other,

    So Obamas 1/2 Black, So What. What are his stand on life and death issues, such as Abortion, and using Nukes.

    Unlike Clinton can he keep track of the Codes.

    Although People pointed out to me that i should Vote for him because he is Black. I did not see a reason to base anything on that issue. (although part of me as a person of color is darn proud of him and always will be); Such as Jesse Jackson walked Point for Martin King and in my book can never do no wrong. You know what heis today and became, but he because of that can still do No Wrong. Would I Vote for him No!

    You know Obama, what he is and what he is on certain issues, But he is still A Good Basic Man and Family Man and Local Boy made good. Even if there is little agreement their is still pride he walks where No other Man of Collor has walked and Does what No Other Man of Color has done. Would I Vote for him No! Do I want this to end in 1 term, Yes. That does not take away from the the pride. Yuoo hope he wakes up in time and sees the Righ and the Light, That Abortion is 1st degree murder w/intent, and in some cases a hate crime.

    I another time and season it might be nice to have a dring togeather, and if its legal or if we have Medical Tickets to split a Maui Wowie. Him, Willie Nelson, and I.

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  588. i would not want a white woman at my age its for who’m ever but im down for my own and i think we should stay with are own but ppl do what they do!!

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  589. I am a black woman married to a white man for 9 years and we have been together for 14 years. I agree that my husband has an independent mind and that he truly does not care what people think of him or our relationship. I can say the same thing about myself. I always gave myself permission to date whomever I wanted to, as far as men from different ethnic groups. I think it’s taking it a bit too far to say WM who take BW seriously as marriage partners have no style. And as far as having “game,” many women (of all ethnic groups) appreciate men that don’t approach them with this childish nonsense, which amounts to nothing but time-wasting head games in a lot of cases.

    When you have brains, you don’t need “game.”

    I met my husband at a bookstore, where he approached me. He treated me like a lady, with dignity and respect, and we proceeded to have intelligent conversations about books we had mutual interests in. About a week later, and many phone conversations in between, we decided to have our first date at a coffee shop and we’ve been together ever since. He’s got plenty of style which suits me and most importantly, he’s a gentleman.

    People are deluding themselves if they think BW are only in relationships with the WM that supposedly no one else wants.

    Those prone to analyzing BW/WM couples can spare me the unsolicited psychoanalysis. I met my husband the same way same “race” couples meet. I met a guy who was really nice, kind, smart, and respectful of me. We dated, fell in love and got married. I wish the same for other couples. It’s really not that complicated unless you make it out to be.

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  590. I honestly am offended by this narcicisstic idea that because I’m a white, Jewish Caucasian man I must have something wrong with me, or be some kind of simpering, pimply-faced “nerd” who is cowering in my parents’ basement watching “Star Trek” reruns if I’m dating a Black woman.

    Far from that, I have worked professionally as a Special Police Officer where I’ve had to square off against gang members, as a Teacher working with “behavioral management” teenagers in some of downtown Baltimore’s toughest high schools during the height of the crack epidemic, as a Reporter going after corrupt cops, worked with dock workers and ship builders, built friendships with local politicians who still give a damn, mediated court cases with judges, and as a private Security consultant chasing people down and dealing with wife-beating scum.

    I’m 6″3, around 225 pounds, smooth bald head, trimmed goatee, and I don’t like to play with childish toys, or childish people. If you feel that any white man who wants a black woman has something wrong with him, than you degrade black women and insult the integrity of any union and you spit in the face of love.

    If I have no “style” or “game,” than the many Nubian Queens I’ve dated through the years must all have cracked heads, because, brother, they did not see Poindexter when I was with them-and by saying that, you insult not just me, but them as well. I love my black Jewish wife, and I would never stand for that insulting language in our presence.

    I was dating black women since before John Shaft was doing it, and I never got any complaints, nor did I ever mistreat any women or treat them. So, let that blow the mind of all the racists out there trying to find something “just not right” or “off” with interracial love. And to all you beautiful black women out there, if black men ain’t treating you with love, kindness, respect, and passion, than dump their sorry behinds for a nappy-headed big Jewish guy, a fit Asian dude, or somebody else who does know how to bring it.

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  591. Please note that “Damon” and “Beth” are using the same computer and are possibly sock puppets.