The following is based on Dr Beverly Tatum’s excellent book, “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” (1997):
Most studies done on biracial or mixed-race children growing up in America have been done on those with a white and a black parent. There is no general agreement yet on the stages they go through, but Dr Tatum says it goes something like this:
- ages 1 to 5: You become aware that your skin and hair is different than one of your parents. You want your same-sex parent to be like you. One girl said if she had a magic wand she would turn her mother brown like her. Your parents say you can be both black and white but it does not make sense. You may get a good deal of unwanted attention. But worse than that is if you get cut off from the black side of your family and your white side bad mouths them. That, along with the racist messages coming from society, will make it hard for you to feel good about yourself down the road. It is not as bad the other way round because society will help you to feel good about your white side.
- ages 6 to 12: By now your parents have stuck a label on you: black, white or biracial. You are starting to think of yourself that way too – and at the same time you are finding out how well that label works in practice. If you do not look like your label it is going to be rough. “Biracial” does not work in all towns and neighbourhoods. It depends. If you look white, then your friends are going to be in for a shock when they see your black parent. (It is less of a shock the other way round.)
- ages 13 to 18: This is the hard part. You are going to be asked to choose sides. The tables at lunch become more divided by race. There is no biracial table. If you sit at a black table they might say you are “not black enough”. You will also have to hear their angry words about whites. You might share that anger if you have experienced racism too, but for you it will not be so straightforward. Yet at the white table you might hear racist remarks. Even if you look white, “passing” as white might not be as easy as you think if they know you are part black. You will run into the same trouble with dating – many white parents will see you as black no matter what. So if you are, say, a biracial girl growing up among whites, they might say you look beautiful and “exotic” but you are still dateless.
- ages 19 to 25: You become more secure in yourself. You are less affected by what others think. You can freely accept both the white and black parts of yourself. It is much easier to think of yourself as “biracial” than it was in high school.
See also:
Abagond 
i personally don’t really like her stages she made…it just seems kinda empty in my opinion.
i think its based on, which parent raised you (not to mention which race). whether or not either side of your family was in your life and how they acted, and where you are raised and how you were raised. also your regular personality (and likes and dislikes) will also play a role.
its really hard to describe the biracial experience, because many biracial people can’t relate to each other, sometimes you have to go online just to find someone similar…
i can see why there is no agreement as to the stages biracial people go through, because its hard to figure out what most go through because most people don’t care to know about it. and each mixed person has a different experience.
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Very interesting timeline. I think the experience may vary according to the individual, of course. I have a 19-month-old biracial nephew (black father, white mother), and I often wonder what his experience will be like once he gets old enough to really understand that he’s biracial.
Also, it would be interesting if this could be developed for mixed people without a white parent (i.e. black and hispanic, or asian and hispanic, etc.). I’m sure their experiences are MUCH different. I have a friend who is Arab and Pacific Islander, and I don’t even want to think about how hard that must have been for her when she was a teenager.
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Another black/white offspring post?
Does the term “biracial” automatically equate to black/white? I’m curious.
I agree with Alwaysright, each person’s experience is totally different. There truly is no one “racial experience” for anyone of African descent. A lot of black people with two black parents go through many of those stages.
But again, does “biracial” and “mixed race” only mean black/white now? Does it only matter if the two racial extremes procreate?
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There are more biracial children with a white and an Asian parent, but most of the studies have been done on those with a black and a white parent. Thus Tatum wrote about the latter. And even they are not that well studied and understood, as Alwaysright101 pointed out and as shown above by the lack of a stage model.
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Barack Obama is biracial and was even brought up by the white side of his family, yet his life story follows the black stage model, not the above.
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its funny you mention the “biracial” thing Mynameismyname i recently noticed that about the word “biracial” at facebook.
i know “mulatto” is supposed to be bad…but i actually am starting to prefer that to “biracial”. it used to be and sometimes still is, when you hear “biracial”, people by default think “black and white”.
but now with more and more mixes showing up, biracial is becoming a very vague word…part of me feels, society should just start making specific words for mixes like Mestizo, Mulatto, Eurasian, Afro-Asian (aka Blasian).
i was thinking about the word Afro-Caucasian…but to me Mulatto sounded better.
i doubt individual words will come out, since society still isnt used to “biracial” yet.
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From my observations, most black/white offspring follow the black stage model.
No matter what, someone is a product of a black/white union WILL NEVER BE WHITE. They can claim black or “mixed/biracial” but never white. That’s fascinating, right?
I’m very curious about the varying experiences and attitudes of white/Asaian offspring or any non-black interracial individual. That’s far more interesting.
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Mynameismyname said:
From my observations, most black/white offspring follow the black stage model.
I agree. I think the “biracial experience” applies mainly to those who are caught in the middle for some reason – because of how they look or where and how they were brought up. I am thinking in particular of near-white-looking kids brought up in white neighbourhoods as either “white” or “biracial”.
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Mynameismyname said:
I’m very curious about the varying experiences and attitudes of white/Asaian offspring or any non-black interracial individual. That’s far more interesting.
There should be enough on growing up hapa for a post. I will see what I can find.
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Kip Fullbeck, does alot on growing up Hapa.
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Right, mulatto is so much better than “biracial”. A pity it has fallen out of favour.
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Kip Fullbeck? Oh cool. Thanks!
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The odd thing about being “Not Black Enough” is that many mixed-race kids fall into the trap of proving how “Black” they can be by getting into a lot of trouble.
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>Barack Obama…follows the black stage model, not the above.
But didn’t Obama go through this as well? : “You will also have to hear their angry words about whites. You might share that anger if you have experienced racism too, but for you it will not be so straightforward.”
(When he goes to the barber in ‘Dreams from my father’. Though he may have concluded that he’s black instead of biracial.)
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Obama is bound to have some things in common with biracial people, but he lacks the single most important thing of all: the experience of being caught between the races. Blacks accepted him when he was growing up, whites on the whole did not. That more than anything else is what makes you black as opposed to biracial or white.
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In my single years I dated two biracial young women, both very pretty (think Alicia Keys and Halle Berry), one raised by a single black mother within a predominantly black extended family and one raised by a single white mother within a completely white extended family. Not surprisingly, the music of their speech and non-verbal communication, as well as their racial identity, tracked their upbringing. The “black” one didn’t have too many personal issues about her mix other than some level of jealous hostility from darker skinned sisters. The “white” one didn’t either, other than a level of annoyance about having to repeatedly answer the “what are you?” questions that she invariably got from strangers.
What I learned from that is that if you’re a highly attractive young woman the world pretty much always kisses your ass and everything comes easily.
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“What I learned from that is that if you’re a highly attractive young woman the world pretty much always kisses your ass and everything comes easily.”
True that!
I hate to say this but:
As much as I complain about specific “racial” incidents, I’ve had an inordinate and even illogical amount of luck and opportunity in my life. I would never have made it so far if I was an ugly white woman.
Being ugly is worse than being black (or biracial).
It’s simple: when you’re pretty and pleasant people want to have you around. If you’re nice to look at even other women will prefer you. They give you the benefit of the doubt and plenty of second chances. They stretch the criteria and are sympathetic to your plight. People WANT to like you, even if you’re black.
Okay, you can all begin throwing tomatoes at me now…
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Mulatto is a derogatory term for most ppl… if you look into the history of the word you will see why the politically correct crew has adopted biracial, and why biracial often is taken to mean of black and white.
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“What I learned from that is that if you’re a highly attractive young woman the world pretty much always kisses your ass and everything comes easily.”
This clearly isn’t a feminist blog, since this is the sentiment here… but this is a very misogynistic thing to say.
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I do not believe in policing or moderating the thoughts of my commenters, just certain ways of expressing them:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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Black & German,
I won’t throw tomatoes, I will agree with you (and I don’t think it’s a misogynistic statement). Attractive people get more perks, like better jobs, and they are perceived as nice, witty, and other positive traits at first glance. This isn’t opinion, there is actually research out there on this.
I will admit that I cannot relate to much of the “Black woman’s experience” (in quotes because obviously there is no single experience but YKWIM) because I’m considered attractive by most people, Black and White. The “you are pretty for a dark girl” comments have never been directed at me (at least to my face), and many people tend to imply that I am of an “ideal weight.” (I get a lot of “I’m so jealous” comments from both White and Black girls.) I don’t even think I’m super-fine, but I fit into enough overarching standards of beauty to get those perks. I don’t think “everything comes easily” to me or that people always “kiss my ass”, but I definitely get the benefit of the doubt and people make positive assumptions about me–their first impression is friendly, open, and to some White people,non-threatening. I doubt they’d make the same assumptions if I was overweight or ugly, no matter what my race was.
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The comment was perhaps glib but it was not misogynist. In fact, there are numerous studies that document the respective social and economic privileges that accompany things like beauty and other physical attributes such as height. In general, people who are considered attractive have more opportunities, including employment and economic opportunities. Same with taller people, or trim/fit people vs. fat people.
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biracial=black
simple as that…doesn’t matter about the white side, you are black
asian+white=you are asian
latino+white=you are latino
its what I’ve learnt and much easier to deal with this way
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Latino isn’t a race.
I agree, Jhem, with everything else. Except East Asian + white can often equal white in the eyes of the majority. Even if the East Asian origins are known.
What race do you think most Americans would label such celebs as Jon from Jon & Kate, Keanu Reeves, Greg Louganis and Vanessa Hudgens?
Anything non-black+ white can equal white as long as the looks aren’t too ambigious but black is black in this part of the world. Essentially. No matter what anyone says.
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Just had to comment on something that happened yesterday (and at least once every few months since high school). I was buying some lipstick and the sales woman asked me, “Where did you get those contacts? They look so real!”
The advent of colored contacts is the bane of my existence. Truly.
:-p
And I get tired of hair dressers getting on my case about “dying your daughter’s hair blonde”. As if!
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24 – mynameismyname Says:
I agree, Jhem, with everything else. Except East Asian + white can often equal white in the eyes of the majority. Even if the East Asian origins are known.
What race do you think most Americans would label such celebs as Jon from Jon & Kate, Keanu Reeves, Greg Louganis and Vanessa Hudgens?
it’s the same old, same old as usual isn’t it? downplaying the experiences of racism that biracial Asian people have…
why don’t you ask Atlasien and Carmen Van Kerckhove if they are “white” or Asian…
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*by “have” I meant experience… oops
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Asian + white…it also depends on context. In Asia, they are seen as white, and definitely (though not always) enjoy white privilege. (Though for some such biracials who grow up in places like Japan, it may mean that they are never fully accepted as ‘Japanese’.) But when they go to the US, Australia or Europe, some have told me that they are perceived as ‘Asian’. So it depends on where they are and the ambiguity of their look.
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^^
Exactly. That’s precisely what I said above.
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well, mynameismyname you said What race do you think most Americans would label such celebs as Jon from Jon & Kate, Keanu Reeves, Greg Louganis and Vanessa Hudgens?
fromthetropics said But when they go to the US, Australia or Europe, some have told me that they are perceived as ‘Asian’.
so I guess the answer to your question mynameismyname is that these people are ASIAN
@fromthetropics – mynameismyname has a habit of being dismissive of racism experienced by Asian people
that said… I consider Cassie the RnB singer Afro-Asian-American – she is part Asian and black – to me she looks very Filipino like other Filipino people I know.
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>so I guess the answer to your question mynameismyname is that these people are ASIAN
That’s not quite what I’m saying. I said ‘some’ are perceived as Asian. Many do experience racism. But I also said it depends on context and the way they look. The very same people who are seen as Asian in the US can go to the other side of the world and be seen as white. And so I agree with both you, Therese, & mynameismyname.
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I think this term ‘biracial’ is fairly new in usage. I also think it is generational in that most people over forty who have parents, one black, one white, consider themselves black. As for exposing them to two cultures, most children are exposed to white culture in the form of media education etc. So it is not a viable proposition that they be exposed to both cultures, they already are. In fact they may be overexposed in most circumstances. In most instances very little is taught in schools about Black history as opposed to European history for example. One has to seek out information on black history in many cases. So saying that a ‘biracial’ child be exposed to both is duplicitous at best. I think this is another form of white supremacy, a form of divide and conquer as it were.
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I agree: White American culture can more than take care of itself: it is on television, in magazines and newspapers, in school, etc. It is so overpowering that many white people do not even see that it is there.
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“Biracial” is an old word but in the sense that it has today – a person with parents from different races – it is new. As best as I can tell it seemed to have started in the 1990s among white American women who had children by black men but were trying to bring them up among whites. They were trying to protect their children from the anti-black racism that most whites have. In effect, they are trying to recreate the old mulatto caste.
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We have adopted a biracial son; father very black; mother very Scandinavian white. Our son is 14 and has asked us what he can expect, should he marry a white woman, the color of his child’s skin to be.
Frankly I do not know the answer. Can you provide information.
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We have adopted a biracial son; father was very black, mother very Scandinavian white. Our son is now 14 and has asked us what he can expect, sould he marry a white woman, the color his child’s skin to be.
Frankly I do not know the answer. Can you provide information.
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Don Prater says
We have adopted a biracial son; father was very black, mother very Scandinavian white. Our son is now 14 and has asked us what he can expect, sould he marry a white woman, the color his child’s skin to be.
Frankly I do not know the answer. Can you provide information.
First off,
I don’t understand how you can’t answer!
and this type of question from a boy of 14 means a lot.
Why not teaching him how to get married with someone that loves.
the funny thing is why he didn’t ask if he should married a black woman ?
and also the way you described his parents, no wonder
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To Don Prater
Our son is now 14 and has asked us what he can expect, should he marry a white woman, the color his child’s skin to be.
The answer would be that some of his children could like perhaps Latino and some could look more clearly like they had African heritage. There are even cases where children from a Biracial/White union look Italian or Spanish.
Consider the children of the American musician and producer, Quincy Jones, who had children with several different white women, Mr. Jones would definitely be called a black man in the US but in a place like Brazil he’d probably be considered Pardo. (mixed..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincy_Jones
His son Quincy Jones III whose mother was a Swedish woman:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QDIII
His daughter Rashida with his former wife Peggy Lipton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashida_Jones
Also his daughter Kidada Jones from the same union:
Mr Jones with his daughter, Kenya Jone whose mother was Nastassja Kinski:
I agree with Nubia that he should marry the person he loves, regardless of color.
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“think Alicia Keys and Halle Berry” LOL. You wish!
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“We have adopted a biracial son; father was very black, mother very Scandinavian white. Our son is now 14 and has asked us what he can expect, sould he marry a white woman, the color his child’s skin to be.”
Itvaries. There are some that may look full white and then there are many that still look mixed race. Look at actress Jessica Szhor or Thandie Newton’s children. I will say that if he is trying to some how trying to pick or pre-determine the looks of his future children then there are probably some underlying issues going on.
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Huh. It looks almost exactly like what I went through. I’m Taiwanese/White- American (20 years old). That high school stage that was mentioned with the near racially segregated lunch tables was very obvious at my school (in my city, Plano, TX, it is very racially diverse – asian, caucasian, black, hispanic, you name it, even immigrants are common). I went through high school without any close friends because I simply just bounced around between groups and lunch tables. In fact, during lunch I distinctly remember never spending an entire lunch period with any one group. It wasn’t until college that I learned to ignore that feeling of seclusion. Even now, however, I still get that feeling of inadequacy sometimes.
I know it’s not a black-and-white mix, but the experience seems to be the same.
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Those stages are true in my perspective. I was very insecure when people began asking me “what am i”? My feelings would get hurt because they saw me a different. I am a fair pale skinned biracial, and many people didnt accept me because i was different. Their excuse was that they thought i would be “stuck-up”, which is ignorant. I didnt start feeling like I belonged in society, until I learned how to accept myself.
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I really wish people of different races would think twice about having children. I am mixed (black/white) and can honestly say it ihas been the worst thing in my life. I was never “black” enough, but obviously not white either so I didn’t really fit in anywhere. Now at 35, I can say that I still have no identity. Still single, I find that I only want to marry a biracial person as they know what its like. I just personally think being 2 races is too difficult in American society. It’s hard enough being 1 race with all of the racism in this country!
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Wow, Tara. Just… wow.
Look, if so-called “pure” race is the only thing that can give you identity, you have some serious issues that need working on.
In the first place, many of those so-called black and white people are as genetically mixed as you.
In the second, race is hardly the only thing you can build an identity around. In fact, you don’t even need it for an identity. But if you’re bound and determined to have a race-based identity, there are PLENTY of mixed race heroes for you to identify with out there.
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@ Tara
It’s quite painful to read your post. I don’t know if it makes me sad or furious first. I think first of all it makes me angry that one has to fit into a “drawer” that certain societies have declared to be the appropriate one. Even worse, the fact you’d have to choose one. What makes me sad is that you have apparently given in to those nonsensical classifications.
This is of course just one example (but I bet one out of many around the world) — my grandmother was Camerounaise (African), my grandfather (white) French. My mother obviously was half Camerounaise, half (white) French. She married my father – 100% European – in the 50s and they were happily married until her death 8 years ago. My grandparents were happily married over 40 years until my grandfather died.
I wouldn’t be sitting here if any of my direct ancestors had the thought “we better not have any kids because…”
It hurts me to hear about “bi-racial” kids left out in the rain just because they don’t fit into any of those useless classifications. I know from my own experience (I wouldn’t be typing right now otherwise) that so-called inter-racial relationships do work long term. Probably even better so than the monolithic ones.
What my mum used to teach all of us siblings is that we have to be OURSELVES first of all. Be yourself. Don’t even try to “fit in”. “Fitting in” is the first step to self denial. Allow yourself to be loved for who you are, not for who you are supposed to be. The only identity there will ever be for you is yourself. Not more not less.
Perhaps it’s too easy for me to say that from a place where this “inter-racial” thing is not an issue. However I hope you won’t spread your thought of “people shouldn’t mix” any further… I think we had enough backwards thinking during the 2000s.
peace and bonne chance
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@ Tara
I was never “black” enough, but obviously not white either so I didn’t really fit in anywhere. Now at 35, I can say that I still have no identity. Still single, I find that I only want to marry a biracial person as they know what its like.
Seriously? I’m curious where you would have lived/live (in general terms) in the U.S. to have felt such a constant heavy cultural pressure to still make you feel the way you do as an adult at age 35. Would you be able to elaborate?
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Not being accepted by any of the groups must be hard. Like it or not, race is an important collective identity for many people.
Still, it’s possible to live without it (a collective identity of any sorts). It’s just a bit different, and yes, more difficult in some aspects, but it also gives you more freedom to be who you want to be and now what “your groups” wants/expects.
And I don’t think these problems should prevent people from dating interracialy and having kids with someone of another race.
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Femi,
I think your mom had some pretty good advice. 🙂
From what I’ve seen, some biracial people who claim to have suffered “identity trauma” were primed for it as kids. The idea is, if people tell you, “Oh people aren’t going to like you, you are going to be excluded, but come and talk to me about it, I’m here for you, etc.” they may actually provoke worse outcomes in the child than if they just left him/her alone. To give a similar example, researchers saw that the reaction to 9/11–hundreds of therapists on-call, continued pleas for people to “get help”, etc.–was actually worse for mental health outcomes. Basically, humans are generally very resilient, so suggesting that they will be traumatized before they actually declare themselves traumatized just primes them to search for what’s wrong. Your mom’s advice probably worked out so well because it’s advice you could give any kid–she didn’t presuppose that you all would be treated poorly for being biracial.
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Some of the responses to Tara’s statement do come off as a bit naive in my opinion. The traditional American notion of social order is heavily based on the idea of there being discrete, non-overlapping racial groups possessing distinctive cultural characteristics. Racial group membership is widely considered to be one of the most important (if not the most important) aspects of a person’s place in society. That’s why Thad, Color of Love, and Mira speak of themselves as white and why Abagond and others present their ideas as some sort of black perspective. Racial identity is very important in determining how you relate to others, at least in the US. That’s why ambiguity in racial status can be problematic. Oddly, collective identity seems to only appear superfluous to those who already espouse one, like some of those mentioned above.
I’m not really sure what the solution is. The problem might work itself out over time. The country’s demographics are changing rapidly and there are more and more Americans who are racially fuzzy. Just considering who is prominent in movies, television, music, fashion, and now politics, it appears that mixed or ambiguous is becoming the new mainstream. So it’s probably not as important to fit into one of these categories as it used to be and will in all likelihood grow less important over time.
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The education system as well as the IRS, expect race to be answered. Forms always expect answers. So what do you say?
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@FG
Racial identity is very important in determining how you relate to others, at least in the US. That’s why ambiguity in racial status can be problematic. Oddly, collective identity seems to only appear superfluous to those who already espouse one, like some of those mentioned above.
Hmmm. It seems to me that you mistake espousing an identity – because you realize that is how you are perceived – with internalizing one. Furthermore, you seem to believe that when one espouses one identity, this needs must negate others.
I, for one, have SEVERAL identities which I espouse, some of which contradict others.
So I think you’re misreading my position: I do indeed think that identity is important and not superfluous. In fact, I think it’s SO important, that I’m hardpressed to see how anyone could limit themselves to just ONE identity.
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I, for one, have SEVERAL identities which I espouse, some of which contradict others.
What are they Thad?
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(Here’re some, in no particular order…)
Gringo
Anthropologist
White
American
Brazilian
White Trash
Scientist
Man
Heterosexual
Queer
Mixed
Agnostic
Spiritualist
Anarchist
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I think the fatalistic attitude of “that’s how it is, live with it” of some people suggests that they apparently accept the status quo, possibly even as the only right thing to do. I keep hearing “society requires this, society dictates that…”
Well, the truth is, society is what the people make out of it. At least in a true democracy.
Regarding the “race” check boxes on US government forms. Well, do you all think it’s right, from a humanistic perspective? Honestly?
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“Regarding the “race” check boxes on US government forms. Well, do you all think it’s right, from a humanistic perspective? Honestly?”
You may find this surprising but many “liberal” academics and minority activists view the division of the population into broad racial categories, opposition to multiracialism and ambiguous identities, the ODR, and angry identity politics as the key to social justice. They view this state of affairs so positively that they are even attempting to export it to Latin American, which has traditionally had much looser ideas about race and identity.
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Back to my question then. Do you think it’s right?
(whoever wants to give his/her input)
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Hmmm…This an interesting discussion. I’m glad to see biracial people from counties other than the U.S. posting to it. It’s particularly useful for me to read all your comments becuase I’m 1/2 of a black/white couple (I’m the black half, of course) and we’re raising a biracial child in a non-U.S. culture right now.
@Femi,
No, I don’t think it’s right, but only because the “purist” catagories we use in the U.S. only take into account so-called racially pure people’s self-identification preferences. The multiracial community is almost completely ignored. If I could arrange matters at the IRS and Census Bureau to my liking, we’d have a whole range of catagories of bi-and multiracial identifications. Yes, I know that would be a long list. You may now ask the question: Why have racial catagories at all? My answer to that would be I can’t think of any other way of keeping track of who’s being discriminated against and what levels, and who’s not. Do any of y’all have ideas on how else it can be done? One of the problems we have here in Norway, is that there are no racial calssifications on any government forms and as a result, there are no statistics on levels of discrimination. It makes it very difficult for people of color to convince white people that institutional racism exists in Norway at all. I don’t know of a way to get away from racial classifications altogether, but I do wish we could.
“What my mum used to teach all of us siblings is that we have to be OURSELVES first of all. Be yourself. Don’t even try to “fit in”. “Fitting in” is the first step to self denial. Allow yourself to be loved for who you are, not for who you are supposed to be. The only identity there will ever be for you is yourself. Not more not less.”
I do think this is pretty good advice, but in the U.S. you’d also have to warn your kids that other people will try to put them in boxes and that you can’t change other people’s opinions of you. With that said, I still think your mother’s advice will be part of what my husband and I will eventually tell our daughter when we start having those inevitable conversations on race. She’s only 5 now so, we haven’t really discussed it with her yet, only with each other.
@Tara,
I’m not biraicial, I’m an AA albino ( if you want to know what I look like visit my website), but growing in the southern United States people often thought I was biracial. I had many of the same experiences you did in being too white looking to be considered black and too black to ever pass for white. I did finally learn to accept and even celebrate my dfferences and you can, too. I just think it’s very sad you didn’t. My heart goes out to you. I also would like to hear more about you experiences growing up and your young adult years. Maybe it will help me understand why you still feel this way at 35.
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Thad,
You identify yourself as white trash? Interesting…
I don’t think race boxes are ok, but who cares what I think. Are US people even allowed not to answer that question or to put whatever they want as their answer? (Like you can put whatever you want as your religion or ethnic identity here- so you get many penguins, hobbits, etc. Remember Jedi census thing in the UK and Australia?) A family member of mine always identifies himself as a penguin, no joke.
FG,
You may find this surprising but many “liberal” academics and minority activists view the division of the population into broad racial categories, opposition to multiracialism and ambiguous identities, the ODR, and angry identity politics as the key to social justice.
It’s not surprising at all, FG. Why do you find that surprising? It’s what liberals do. They oppose collective identities and claim people should be individuals first. It doesn’t sound that bad until your realize they actually want to PREVENT people from a) forming collective identities even if they want to (and each person have a full right to do that should he or she wants) and b) forming an identity that is not WASP or closest to that as can get.
That is one reason I dislike liberals. The other one is their idea of economy justice.
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“It’s not surprising at all, FG. Why do you find that surprising? It’s what liberals do. They oppose collective identities and claim people should be individuals first. It doesn’t sound that bad until your realize they actually want to PREVENT people from a) forming collective identities even if they want to (and each person have a full right to do that should he or she wants) and b) forming an identity that is not WASP or closest to that as can get.”
What I was saying is that many self-proclaimed liberals in the US tend to be highly favorable to racialist politics. They loathe religious and nativist solidarities, but love racialism.
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Well, many liberals are racist, aren’t they? And not in a simple way of “many X are racist”: liberalism is perfect for racist people, now when you think about it.
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“Regarding the “race” check boxes on US government forms. Well, do you all think it’s right, from a humanistic perspective? Honestly?”
I think it’s right from the perspective of not being screwed by the majority. The fact is, US society is still very much a society that provides benefits to white males above and beyond those afforded women and non-whites. The only way to deal with that–or even provide metrics to show that it is still happening–is by keeping track of what happens in society to women and non-whites.
If black men are being arrested, forced into confessions, and convicted without corroborating evidence by police to a greater degree than whites…how would you prove it if statistics by race weren’t being maintained?
Without those statistics, we can have a situation like France where the government claims there is no such thing as race, but funny coinkidink, there are no black people of any power or prominence except in sports and entertainment.
This may change after all of us Boomers are dead, but that’s the way it is right now.
Now, is justice right from a humanistic perspective?
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@Mira
You identify yourself as white trash? Interesting…
Lord knows I’ve been classified as that enough in my life.
Frankly, I don’t see it as an insult anymore. Rather the opposite, in fact.
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But you are a Ph.D and a professor. I thought that only in my culture you can be highly educated AND a white trash (due to collapse of economy).
Or does the term “white trash” have another meaning I’m not aware of?
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“But you’re not REALLY black: you went to college.”
Is that what you’re saying, Mira? 😀
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Eh, no. I thought the “official” definition of white trash is “poor, low class and uneducated” (while that isn’t official definition of blacks).
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“White trash” is an accusational category, much like n*****. there is no “official” definition of it and “poor and lower class” is all relative, isn’t it?
I’ll cop to being educated, but that hasn’t changed my values or culture much.
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If the “race” checkbox is allegedly preventing discrimination why isn’t there simply only one additional checkbox “Ethnic minority”? Whoever self-identifies as non-white can check the box, otherwise leave it blank.
Quite honestly, what it rather looks like to an outsider is that the classification into a handful of groups is used to identify mainly Black and “Hispanic”. And for PC reasons, they couldn’t just put 2 check boxes – “Black/Hispanic” and “Other”.
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Those are not claims by the government. There is no proven and universally accepted definition of “race” in humans. Therefore it doesn’t make sense to institutionalise it. (The USA have certainly not found the universally applicable “truth” on that end.) And btw, how long have you lived in France?
As I said before, one check box “Minority” would be enough.
I insist 😉 – do you think the “race” checkboxes on US forms are right?
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But where would that put “ethnic” whites?
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Thad,
“White trash” is an accusational category, much like n*****. there is no “official” definition of it and “poor and lower class” is all relative, isn’t it?
I’ll cop to being educated, but that hasn’t changed my values or culture much.
Interesting. I knew “white trash” was a derogatory term; I just thought there are strict rules when it was applied. So that you can’t be called white trash if you are educated- the worst you can get is “was born in a white trash family” but not being white trash yourself.
And I wonder about the “white trash” values…
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@ Mira
I’m not sure what you mean by “ethnic white”.
Making the tick in a “race” check box is a self-declaration anyway. If you consider yourself part of a minority that could be a potential victim of discrimination, check the box.
Now if an organisation wanted to do things properly by currently known standards in genetics – ie. ethnic groups -, you would end up with hundreds if not thousands of checkboxes, especially in countries with high immigration rates.
On the other hand, a consolidation into larger groups by arbitrarily chosen parameters will never hold water in a global context.
I think you should either do it right or don’t do it at all. If you’re worried about discrimination of minorities (which probably applies to most countries around the world), all you need is one checkbox.
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To be honest, I am not QUITE sure who ethnic whites are, but I guess those are non-WASP whites or anybody who consider themselves a minority (Jews, for example?).
Maybe I’m way too fixated on European way of thinking, though.
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@ Mira, regarding this:
My online experience taught me that one should be very careful when using the word “liberal” on an american website or a blog patronized by Americans.
In most countries (especially former communist countries like mine and yours), “liberalism” is a codeword for the latest incarnation of “capitalism”. In the USA, the word has a whole different meaning.
So, while you’re both using the same word, I’m not sure that you and FG are talking of the same thing here:
Cultural misunderstanding?
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@ Femi
How long RDKirk has lived in France is not relevant. His analysis is the same as the one expressed by the black french of the CRAN and other black associations of France.
True, the official position of the french government is not exactly that “there is no such thing as race” Instead, they use the excuse that racial statistics would open the Pandora box of “communautarism” (which, in the French context is the scarecrow used by the right wing to diabolize minorities).
The CRAN advocates that such statistics are needed to efficiently fight discriminations. And they have good arguments to back this up.
Yes, the USA are not a model as far as race is concerned, but France is not much better if you ask me.
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I just thought there are strict rules when it was applied.
Not even close.
So that you can’t be called white trash if you are educated- the worst you can get is “was born in a white trash family” but not being white trash yourself.
Actually, no. It was a term that originally had a huge tie-in to eugenics (the social memory of this is the insult that white trash are incestuous – an accusation originally used by 19th century scientists to explain their “degradation”). And while having an education helps, it certainly doesn’t remove you from being qualified in that way. And if one is white, one will often be qualified that way by the members of the social strata immediately above you.
I’ve seen, for example, a middle-class, college-educated retired school teacher get called “white trash” by her “betters” at the country club she joined.
And I wonder about the “white trash” values…
I should say that I’ve retained most of the values that I was brought up with and that these are often classified as “white trash” (or as more polite variants thereof) by my urban, middle-class U.S. colleagues.
“Redneck” and “white trash” are two sides of the same coin, for example. The first is a self-attribution in many cases: the second is an accusatory category. Both tend to get applied to the same people, however.
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@ Dahoman X
You are probably referring to Valls, the PS rep who is pushing towards allowing ethnic statistics. Although his intentions might be noble (who knows?), nobody is able to come up with concrete proposals for a system that is demographically accurate, feasible from a practical standpoint AND acceptable for the population. PLUS – and that’s the whole point – able to counteract discrimination. There are other organisations like SOS Racisme who are opposed to collecting ethnic data. Their arguments are clear; the positive effects are not proven and the risk of misuse is always there.
Btw although le CRAN seems to be warming up to the idea of collecting ethnic data, it’s not even on top of their list. They have more immediate issues to tackle, like for instance to help provide and maintain human conditions for illegal immigrants and to integrate them into legal status. And then the recent excessive measures against the Roms. No statistics will prevent those things from happening.
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Just an add-on. My question how long you’ve been living in France was not meant to be condescending. You have to live it to catch the local vibes.
Even if one day they will implement ethnic checkboxes I already know that the result will be close to worthless. You’ll have a lot of people who will refuse to make their tick, check “other”, or something totally wrong out of protest. From a practical perspective it is obvious that you can’t do DNA testing for over 60 million people just to check the accuracy of their self-proclaimed ethnicity.
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>>Femi–As I said before, one check box “Minority” would be enough.<>Femi–I insist 😉 – do you think the “race” checkboxes on US forms are right?<<
As someone who was in the Civil Rights struggle–YES, emphatically.
We needed it. We still need it. As late as 1999, we still used those statistics to identify, for instance, the beginnings of the RE-institutionalization of racism and sexism in military promotions.
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>>Femi–As I said before, one check box “Minority” would be enough.<<
Not necessarily. Until fairly recently, the state of Mississippi was predominantly black. Whites were the minority…but they held all social power, wrested from blacks by blunt terrorism in the latter 1800s.
In the state of Hawaii, EVERYONE is a minority, but whites and Japanese hold the predominant social power, and do discriminate in behalf of their own groups.
So, no, "minority" doesn't do the trick.
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@ RDKirk
I thought the US classification is on federal level. Am I wrong?
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>>I thought the US classification is on federal level. Am I wrong?<<
When it comes to civil rights, every level of government is required to adhere to the same standards. That's what the Civil War, the 14th amendment, and the Civil Rights movement were all about.
And a great many people are making it clear these days, that they'd like to roll everything back to at least 1954 if not 1868. As a child of the Civil Rights movement, I'm finding the last couple of years very depressing. The political rhetoric on race has already been rolled back 50 years.
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I doubt 1868. That would put it at the height of reconstruction. Try 1890, or thereabouts. That’s what they seem to be aiming for.
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Dahoman X,
My online experience taught me that one should be very careful when using the word “liberal” on an american website or a blog patronized by Americans.
I guess you are right. Still, I didn’t have any problems about it (so far?) and while I do understand the differences in terms “liberal” in America and socialist (and former socialist) countries, I do think this particular kind of racism and wish to “erase borders” between people while still maintain status quo and white rule is what (white) liberals do, so to speak.
But you are right: I am not sure what FG meant when he said “liberals”.
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“Liberal” in the U.s. these days is a code word for anyone who is not a far-right Republican. It is also understood to be synonymous with “socialist” and even “communist” by many Americans.
This is ironic, because liberalism, of course, implies a belief in the worth of the individual and free-market capitalism.
The fact that Americans by and large don’t understand this is a good meausre of just how uneducated they are regarding history and politics.
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What happened to the proposed topic “growing up biracial (the Hapa / Eurasian kind)”?
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Abagond:
Those with one black parent are mixed-race, whether the other parent is white, asian, or native-american. If the black parents keep it 100, and properly identify the child as mixed-race, it would get rid of all the bs. Yes, other races mix with each other, but nobody cares. Folk only care when black people are involved, male and female. Will the child align themselves with the black side of the family, or the non-black side? We forget that other races covet the mixed child as well, not just our side. I’m pretty sure some attractive asian woman would have loved to get her hands on Tiger Woods just as much as any blackwoman. Tiger is an example of why black people will never embrace “biracials” 100% on this planet. His black side made him famous and rich, yet, he chooses to whore himself with slutty whitewomen. Granted, his father impregnated a south asian woman who birthed a caramel baby, but, what benefit have blackwomen gotten out of it? This is the dark side of inter-racial that a lot of blackmen are afraid to tackle. What if his chocolate-swirl baby ain’t as chocolate as they appear on the outside? Fear of the unknown is what keeps a blackman from having babies with non-black women. Imagine having a mulatto daughter who marries a whiteman, the children will be white, regardless? Are most blackmen in IR relationships ready to deal with that dynamic? Most mutts are sufficiently black, but, will they choose black when it’s all said and done?
Tyrone
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“Tyrone,
Those with one black parent are mixed-race, whether the other parent is white, asian, or native-american. If the black parents keep it 100, and properly identify the child as mixed-race, it would get rid of all the bs.”
Linda says,
Now, it’s statements like this here above that makes you a hypocrite, Tyrone.
You keep pressing your tired line about Latinos being 3 distinct races and that the mixed-raced mestizos and morenos are all in denial about their “true identity” and they should just call themselves “Indian” or “black” because they’re no different than the average black American or native American (they just speak Spanish)
and that the mixed-race “whites” should just call themselves “white” and not “Hispanic/Latino” because they’re just like the white man in US of America.
but then, you turn around and say that American mixed-race black/white people shouldn’t be called “black” because this label doesn’t reflect their true identity and black people in America are playing the white mans game….GTFOH with that sh’t…you are the biggest “one-drop ruler” on this board.
You’re busy “one-dropping” Latinos (majority mixed-race) all day long but have no problems telling mixed-race American people who identify as “black” that they need to “keep it real” and stop calling themselves black…whatever, Tyrone… be consistent.
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remember the BEAUTIFUL DENISE “VANITY” MATTHEWS she was the lead singer all girl group named vanity 6 back in 1982. her mom is german/dad black vanity could pass 4 spanish, indian, arab, persia etc. 2 this day she’s still beautiful i love her 2 death!
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I’m a white American man, dating an African American woman. There’s a lot here I can be uncertain about, but one thing is sure: what you see on television and in popular culture is NOT my culture! The idea that white culture dominates media is ridiculous. Hollywood is its own creature. My parents and extended family are nothing like that.
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Someone just sent me this to watch.
(https://youtu.be/dIqrUVpU40M)
SecretDaughter
1996 Documentary about my Mom and Dad; Race, Sex, Hollywood, and Harvard.
(June Cross)
June Cross, born in 1954 to Norma Catherine Greve and Jimmy Cross (“Stump” of the black song-and-dance team “Stump and Stumpy”). Her mother married Hollywood comedian Larry Storch (F Troop) in 1961 and sent her daughter to live with a black foster family in Atlantic City.
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” Her mother married Hollywood comedian Larry Storch (F Troop) in 1961 and sent her daughter to live with a black foster family in Atlantic City.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There is no philosophy/idea on Earth that’s as deadly as the man-made concept of whiteness.
Much, if not all, of the world’s problems can be traced back to the sickening hubris this RELIGION sits atop of. It’s a fabricated but deadly pretentiousness that would seek to destroy everything and everyone it touches. Even those who worship at its altar.
There is nothing good in whiteness.
Nothing whatsoever.
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB9TaA8f-Ks)
I discovered recently this video-clip from Wode Maya (a Ghanaian Youtuber also known as Mr Ghana Boy) and tried to find a place on this blog to share with others.
Finally I found this old thread where it seems to fit. By the way, interesting thoughts at the starting text. Interesting also to compare with the experiences of the women speaking to Wode Maya at that video.
Needless to say that the experience of mixed-race individuals in African countries varies from country to country and is dependent of how large are their numbers in such societies. Former Portuguese colonies and the Republic of South Africa have the largest number of them in sub-Saharan Africa. Former British colonies have the least.
With larger numbers comes a sense of belonging to a different group, not exactly Black nor White, it seems.
Different facets of the human experience worldwide!
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