IQ and income map of the world (click to somewhat enlarge!)
Equality means that all people are born equal and should have equal rights.
Jefferson said it best:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. – That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
Understanding “men” in the sense of “human”, not “male”.
Not everyone believes in equality. For example, some think that whites are better than blacks. Those who blog about it, like Steve Sailer or Guy White, try to prove this by showing that whites have more intelligence or wealth than blacks.
First, their arguments have huge holes in them. For example:
- The intelligence argument is based on whites having higher IQs or a longer list of inventions:
- But IQ tests cannot be trusted – unless you believe that Muhammad Ali (IQ 78) and Andy Warhol (IQ 86) lacked intelligence to a noticeable degree.
- The inventor argument, if applied fairly to all history and not just choice bits of it, like the one we live in, favours the Chinese (Asian) and Egyptians (40% black), not whites.
- The wealth argument assumes that achievement is based on merit, that luck and power and naked violence have nothing to do with it, that wealth and poverty do not each have a snowball effect. If there were no North America, one of the biggest pieces of luck in history, most white Americans would be living in the slums of Europe. Everyone knows that. Thus their “merit”.
In short, if whites were truly that much better than everyone else, they would have been on top all throughout history, not just parts of it.
Second, even if you grant these arguments about wealth and intelligence they fail at a much more profound level: equal rights are based on human worth and human worth cannot be measured. No human being can be baked down to a number – their IQ, their bank account, their whatever. To do so is profoundly dehumanizing, turning humans into little more than talking animals or bank machines. Anyone who has ever lost a child – or dated a gold digger – knows that. In fact, most people know it.
That is why racists do not drive their arguments to their logical conclusions:
- If IQ is so important and so trustworthy, then why not aristocracy? Why not give all the top positions to those with the highest IQ? Why have elections? Why have job interviews or resumes? Why not have birth licences or sterilization based on IQ?
- Likewise, if wealth is such a wonderful measure of who is better or worse, then why not plutocracy? Why not give public offices to the highest bidder? Why bother to hold elections? Why not have a huge maternity tax so that the poor do not have “too many” children?
Etc.
See also:
Abagond 
People often claim they believe in equality (even fight for equality), yet they consider those who are in any way different than them “strange” and inferior.
You don’t even have to use race as an example. Take IQ, for example. So, someone has an IQ lower than you. So what? Does that make this person somehow less equal than you? Or money? Being poor doesn’t make you inferior.
I hate when they use IQ or money to show who is superior and who is inferior.
BTW, I think your map is wrong or outdated. Eastern Europen IQ is claimed to be lower than western European and American. (at least it’s what they say these days).
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I love the last two points. The people you mentioned S.Saliler and others who think like him are just… narrow-minded. They need to travel and stop being so stupid. I honestly think that having many different experiences can help one to be more open to people. Having a view of someone based solely on the colour of their skin is ludicrous.
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I agree with Annaleisha. Just travel a bit, visit all those different places on our planet, meet different people. Don’t just sit in your room, ignorant, thinking you know everything about the world you never saw. I’d love to travel.
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To tell you the truth, Abagond I don’t believe in “Equality” per se!
I believe in Equality of Opportunity! However human beings are not born equal physically or mentally!
“2. Likewise, if wealth is such a wonderful measure of who is better or worse, then why not plutocracy? Why not give public offices to the highest bidder? Why bother to hold elections? Why not have a huge maternity tax so that the poor do not have “too many” children?”
Abagond, we already live in a plutocracy! Democracy nearly always goes into a Plutocracy!
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Vindicator:
Whether we live in a plutocracy is besides the point. The point is that if these racists were true to their beliefs they would be arguing to do away with elections and replace it with an auction or something based on wealth. They do not. Because they are intellectual charlatans.
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Oh dear… that map. I don’t buy it.
It looks like a gross generalisation and would definitely require some very fine zooming in to become at least somewhat significant. But then again, IQ as a Western concept can still be stretched beyond recognition and debunked as you go along.
There are several concepts of IQ floating about and seems like none of them is compatible with the other and the results vary widely between them for the same tested person.
btw, many African and some southern Asian regions are suffering from ‘brain drain’. A lot of their bright heads are lured to the North/West with better paying jobs. The salary is usually below the local average but often way better than what they can ask for in their home countries.
Meritocracy has almost become a myth over the last decade or so. Reality looks very different. The Western world and especially the USA are on the brink of becoming full-fledged plutocracies, fuelled by favouritism and protected by industry lobbyists.
Intelligence or competence isn’t enough anymore. You have to have the right connections and that certain ‘likeability factor’ (whatever it may be). Sadly, that’s what’s sometimes sufficient to land a good deal.
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@Abagond:
I do get the point! I’m just saying we already live in a plutocracy. It’s funny though that many racists don’t buy into plutocracies yet it’s because of the “Democracy” and “Everybody is Equal” crowd that we live in plutocracies today!
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Haha Abagond, you beat me to it! I am stuck halfway through writing a post on my own blog that basically covers the same stuff as this. I’ll still get to it one of these days.
One thing I’ll add to the “invention” argument:
To invent something, you need a whole bunch of other things to be in place first – the right conditions, the need to invent it, and the right influences.
Europe, the Middle East and Asia were fortunate enough to have relatively easy access to each other’s knowledge. So inventions and ideas could flow across Eurasia without too much difficulty, which led to further invention. The Arabs, for example, were frequently the transmitters of knowledge between East and West.
By contrast, some regions, like Australia, Sub-Saharan Africa and the Americas, were cut off from other areas by significant geographical barriers. Thus there was little external influence that would lead to greater invention.
Native Americans and Australians are sometimes derided for being primitive because they never invented the wheel. But the English didn’t invent it either – they were fortunate to live in a region where they were exposed to new ideas from outside which they could adopt.
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If anyone wants to take a good, solid look at some of the real problems which are implicit in general I.Q., I suggest reading Jay Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man”.
This should be required reading for every anti-racist by the way and I’m using it as a course text for my biology students this semester.
What’s great about it is that Gould doesn’t stop with the “it’s culturally biased” argument – a concern, but not as big a one as in the past.
Instead, he discusses what we really know about how intelligence is constructed and whi general I.Q. – which purports to be an average of several different forms of intelligence which really can’t be averaged – distorts this.
It’s a complicated argument and I’m still looking for a way to boil it down in a sound bite for the hoi-polloi.
The best I’ve come up with so far is that general I.Q. is a bit like looking at a greengrocer’s stand and seeing an “average vegetable”.
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If anyone wants to take a good, solid look at some of the real problems which are implicit in general I.Q., I suggest reading Jay Gould’s “The Mismeasure of Man”.
I second this.
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** The best I’ve come up with so far is that general I.Q. is a bit like looking at a greengrocer’s stand and seeing an “average vegetable”. **
I like that one.
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I second that one. An “average vegetable”. LOVE IT!!!
Didn’t Einstein himself have something to say about acquiring “knowledge vs ‘being’ intelligent”?
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I think you are lowering yourself to their stupid IQ argument. The truth is that it doesn’t matter one way or another whether black people’s average IQ is lower, or not. Even if it is true, it is irrelevant.
The bigger argument is one that you make here: all people are created equal, despite being different. The sum of their parts are equal to the sum of everyone else’s parts, even if all of the parts are different.
In fourth grade we read A Wrinkle in Time and my favorite part was when she was on a sort of Ultimate-Communist planet and It was trying to convince her of the beauty of their system. And It tells her that it works because differences make people unhappy, and people can only be happy if they are all alike. Only then can they all be equal. And she is confused for a moment, and then she shouts at him:
Like and equal are not the same thing at all!
That’s right, Meg. They are not the same thing at all.
Thank you for this post, Abagond.
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Equating IQ to intelligence is a dumb argument, the reason these third world countries have low IQ is because there uneducated. Raise there education and there IQ will also rise.
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“Their”
Now I sound uneducated LOL.
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Abagond I think you are wasting your time trying to debunk these HBDers.
If what they are saying is true the majority of people in Sub-Saharan Africa are borderline retarded. I have been, and that is not the case at all. The poverty and lack of education has to do with infrastructure, corruption, and lack of opportunity.
The supporters of intellectualized racism know this but their bigotry and dishonesty wont allow them to admit it.
IQ is not as relevant as the HBD crowd wants us to believe. I have an IQ of 124, that is above average. Despite my IQ I am struggling in my two science classes. There are people in those two classes that have average IQs and are doing very well.
Bottom line is IQ doesnt guarantee a 4.0 GPA, college admission, a job, or success.
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I think IQ does measure something important as test scores correlate with economic success.
However, I think the argument that genetics accounts for the black-white IQ gap has been pretty much discredited. Among those who are categorized by society as black, those with more white ancestry are no more intelligent than those with less (controlling for phenotype). That’s probably the most powerful piece of evidence against the hereditarian position.
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I think IQ does measure something important as test scores correlate with economic success.
Here’s an alternate hypothesis: I.Q. measures mainly education and life chances. That would also correlate for economic success, don’t you think?
You’re not distinguishing between causal phenomena and linked phenomena, FG. If IQ is mostly a measure of life chances and education and economic success is likewise mostly a measure of this, then what we have are two linked phenomena caused by yet a third.
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The IQ tests to me seem like the outdated version of the ACT and SAT which I also think inaccurately labels people. I know too many people who did well only because they were high, those who did bad but excelled GPA wise…
I hate standardized testing and IQ tests.
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1. It’s a complicated argument and I’m still looking for a way to boil it down in a sound bite for the hoi-polloi.
The best I’ve come up with so far is that general I.Q. is a bit like looking at a greengrocer’s stand and seeing an “average vegetable”.
*****************************************
Good point. IQ started with Galton as well as the term Eugenics, who used the premise of White European Anglo culture as superior. IQ and race gained a foothold in America and was used a way to cull undesirable Immigrants, mainly Southern Europeans and non-Whites. As a consequence, Eugenics was firmly entrenched in American ideology and it has been well documented the Eugenics happily gave the Germans and the Hitler regimen fodder for their racial sanitation agenda that decimated millions of undesirables.
IQ was constructed before there was adequate knowledge of basic brain function and thus is a reflection of cultural assumptions and expectations as opposed to any innate, biological ability. Brain Plasticity illustrates that the brain can continue to adapt and learn even after the brain stops growing, is testament that intelligence is fluid even if you accept the premise that we are all born with a set point of intelligence. Brain damaged patients; blind and deaf people’s brains can rewire functions that may have been damaged or missing. This explains why Blind people may have exceptionally hearing or extremely sensitive tactile functions as opposed to the sighted. So although the brain cannot recreate new neurons it can rewire new pathways—thus, how can an IQ test that was created during the time when phrenology was considered a legitimate science, be used as the premier instrument of measuring innate intelligence. Intelligence isn’t finite and brain research continues to prove that IQ tests present an extremely narrow portion for measuring something that has remarkable ability to adapt and change.
People who see the validity of IQ scores are ones who usually test quite well and thus can use a high number as social currency and believe that IQ is a finite entity. Howard Gardner however admitted that he can test well, but has acknowledged other factors made his upbringing helpful and thus allowed him to take full advantage of academia and upward mobility. That is why multiple intelligences can help to explain the diversity in how humans learn. Thus, extrapolating by using a poorly constructed test (I am aware of Binet, Terman adjustments to the test—Binet used it for testing scholastic success not intelligence, Terman continued to craft it under the idea that his test measured actual innate intelligence) to validate innate, genetic inheritance is ludicrous and limiting the diversity of human experience.
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good post
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I agree. IQ has nothing to do with intelligence. There are several people throughout history with relatively “low” IQ’s and no doubt people with supposed “high” IQ’s with no common sense.
There are different types of intelligence and using test to measure them is ineffective.
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“If there were no North America, one of the biggest pieces of luck in history, most white Americans would be living in the slums of Europe.”
Time for another speculative excersize Abagond!
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Bay Area Guy:
That is good to hear.
I did a post on how black Egypt was:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/how-black-was-ancient-egypt/
I did not say ALL white Americans would be living in slums. I said MOST. On purpose – because I know MANY white people imagine the word “all” before “white” when it comes out of my mouth.
Without North America all that wealth from all that land would be gone. Poof. Instead London, Rome, Naples, Dublin, Berlin, Warsaw and so on, would have huge shantytowns. No one can say for sure, of course, but I think that is the most reasonable likelihood.
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Herneith (& Ankhesen):
What I was thinking of was to do a satire of the IQ debate but do it with talking circus animals. The bear would be a spoof of No Slappz, a Red Rooster would be RR, etc.
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“I don’t know if he has an agenda, is racist, or is simply incorrect. However, I’m afraid I’ll have to take his word over yours.”
Yes, Yes, and yes. Hawass is a self-promoter and a racist and he is incorrect. An earlier reproduction of King Tutankhamen’s face was done and it looked like this:
After Hawass got his hands on it it turned into this:
It looks like a younger picture of Hawass! Talk about egotistical!:
I know that you pointed out Egypt wasn’t majority black, but rather 40%.
What were the other 60%, white men from Europe?
Still I cannot help but get the impression from your post that black Egyptians were the pioneers of Egyptian accomplishments.
And what if it was? Do you have a problem with that? The Egyptians always depicted themselves as reddish brown. As you may or may not know, black people come in all sorts of hues. The wigs they wore? Were braids for the most part. Get a load of this:
Does that look like straight European hair to you? This type of wig was the norm. If most of the Egyptians weren’t black, why have wigs with nappy hair and braids. Because that is what their natural hair was like!
What I was thinking of was to do a satire of the IQ debate but do it with talking circus animals. The bear would be a spoof of No Slappz, a Red Rooster would be RR, etc.
Go for it, hahahaha, tears of mirth rolling down my cheeks! I want to be the Tasmanian she-devil or Petunia Pig in your spoof. To hell with al,l and any naysayers!
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You should open this post with the theme from Tiny Toons:
“Were tiny, we’re toony, we’re just a little loony”!
Hahahahah!
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I want the part of Yosemite Sam!
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I did not say ALL white Americans would be living in slums. I said MOST.
This is illogical. It would be NO white Americans. Just low class Europeans living in slums.
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Belgium is a good example of a country that had nothing at all to offer but became rich through African human misery.
When they took over The Congo, they became rich through stealing rubber. (millions of Congolese died because of the Belgian’s greed.)
As a Black person living in Europe, even now, I realise there is this myth that Europe on the whole is rich.
However, most wealth was concentrated into the upper aristocratic classes and the masses were left to fend for themselves. Many Europeans today have a very basic quality of life compared to the average American.
Don’t be fooled by the glamorous images of Europe that you see on TV.
Try living here, and you’ll find out quickly how rough average European life is.
Now, they cannot live off of the colonies so they overcharge and overtax the masses, thus reducing the quality of life overall for everyone.
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Good point on Belgium, Grenda. “Heart of Darkness”.
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I said:
“I did not say ALL white Americans would be living in slums. I said MOST.”
Mira said:
“This is illogical. It would be NO white Americans. Just low class Europeans living in slums.”
Well, clearly, they would not be called Americans. My point is that many in Europe escaped poverty – just as today many in Mexico and the Caribbean escape poverty – by coming to America.
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@ Grenda:
Excellent comment. Thank you.
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Well, clearly, they would not be called Americans. My point is that many in Europe escaped poverty – just as today many in Mexico and the Caribbean escape poverty – by coming to America.
Of course. I thought it was a well-known fact. I’m not saying there were no rich and successful people in Europe (we all know there were many of them), but most of the people were not doing well.
In some European countries it was impossible for you to raise above your social status. If you were born in a working class family… Well, too bad for you, pal. You were considered inferior, unintelligent, dirty and unimportant by those above you. They considered themselves better than you simply because they were born rich and aristocracy. So you decided to give yourself a chance, to go elsewhere where you won’t be judged by your low class or family but by your hard work. You got on boat and started a new life in America. Indeed, your hard work did bring you a better life. But before you know it, you started acting weird and thinking that some people (for example, black people) are inferior, unintelligent, dirty and unimportant.
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Hello Bay Area Guy,
Most tourists see beautiful buildings and museums and restaurants. Not the everyday struggle to make ends meet.
Try getting your paycheques, going to the grocery store, buying your shopping paying the rent/mortgage for your 500 sq foot place. heating your accomodation, getting hot water, paying the elctricity bill, taxes, petrol for your mini car.
You will have nothing left,, I guarantee it.(And yes, I was upper middle class in North America when I lived there)
Most english people(and other Euroepans) are so shocked when they leave the UK and see how life is so much better in other countries like America, Canada, Australia, Spain..etc… they leave and don’t come back.
With the exception of Scandinavian countries, you will find bad standards here. We call England the most expensive Third World Country.
Basic stuff like a garage, central heating, hot water, telephone, car was not the norm even in the 80’s.
People tended to live in what was called a 2 up 2 down townhouse. ( 2 bedrooms upstairs) and a kitchen and living room dowstairs and a little yard. And they crammed their kids all in in that 1 bedroom
People took a bath once a week in a public bath. Or filled a tin with water in the living room. There was an outhouse for the toilet.
When I tell Europeans I played piano,grew up in a big detached house, my brothers were enrolled in sports ,my friends all took figure skating, went sailing regularly, had my own bedroom growing up and a 2 car garage, they are shocked! They cannot comprehend that type of lifestyle.
My Dutch cousins( and other relatives in other European countries ) have taken me to the “rich” neighborhoods. They (not all the time but a lot of the time) had to specify which houses were the expensive ones as they were tiny, cramped and not very impressive.
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Methinks both Afrocentrists and Eurocentrists need to stop trying to steal the heritage of Egypt away from the Egyptians.
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http://www.visabureau.com/…/low-quality-of-life-in-the-uk-leads-to-mass-migration-to-australia.aspx –
This link show how Ireland and England ranked poorly for quality of life.
I’m sure there are bad situations for people in Peru
But the point being emphasised is that there is that the picture of countries being presented vs others are skewed.
We KNOW there are rough places in Peru because we get told that on a regular basis along with other Latin countries, but we are RARELY painted a similar picture of Europe. Of how hard life is over here for many.
My point is, Black people get painted a rosy picture of Europe while ethnic countries get slammed.
European countries might have more money but a lot of these ethnic countries have less money in their banks but have a HIGHER quality of life.
MORE money in a country does not mean HIGHER quality of life. Especially when even your basic needs, food, rent,mortgage, taxes are exorbitantly priced
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To Abagond:
If there were no North America, one of the biggest pieces of luck in history, most white Americans would be living in the slums of Europe.
Would that be the case for Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore…?
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To Abagond:
If there were no North America, one of the biggest pieces of luck in history, most white Americans would be living in the slums of Europe. Everyone knows that. Thus their “merit”.
There were, most assuredly, slums in France and Britain hundreds of years after contact and colonization of North America. Industrialization is what brought people (not immediately..) out of the slums.
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“What were the other 60%, white men from Europe?”
LMAO if you believe Guy White then yes!
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So wait, there are no slums in Europe?
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Uncle Milton:
In so far as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan have got rich from selling to the North American market then, yes, North America was a huge stroke of luck for them too.
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It was not like 60% of Egyptians were pure white and 40% were pure black. A better way to put it is that the general gene pool was 60% Middle Eastern and 40% black African. But of course no one back then would think of it that way – the Egyptians were, well, just Egyptians. If anyone was part this and part that it was other, lesser people.
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In so far as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan have got rich from selling to the North American market then, yes, North America was a huge stroke of luck for them too.
All of Latin America also trades with the North American market but for the most part I wouldn’t describe the area as being rich. (Although there are some very rich people from Latin America including Carlos Slim of Mexico purportedly now the richest man in the world…) There are also extensively trade ties between the Philippines, Thailand, and Indonesia and the US but those countries are less wealthy than Mexico.
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Y said:
“Abagond I think you are wasting your time trying to debunk these HBDers.
If what they are saying is true the majority of people in Sub-Saharan Africa are borderline retarded. I have been, and that is not the case at all. The poverty and lack of education has to do with infrastructure, corruption, and lack of opportunity. “
Likewise according to the map at the top of the post the West Indies is another Region of the Retarded (coloured yellow).
It goes against common sense. It is faith not science. Science is falsifiable – but this IQ stuff is not.
By the way, what does HBD stand for? Half Brain Dead?
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By the way, what does HBD stand for?
I believe it stands for Human Biodiversity. A phrase not necessarily coined by.. but promoted by Steve Sailer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Sailer
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To Abagond:
More on HBD:
“Sailer has run an invitation-only online discussion forum called Human Biodiversity Discussion Group, whose members he has described as “top scientists and public intellectuals”.According to Lynn Conway, in 1999 the group included such members as Paul Krugman, James J. Heckman, Gary Becker, Francis Fukuyama, Steven Pinker, Charles Murray, J. Philippe Rushton, William D. Hamilton, Henry Harpending and Daniel C. Dennett.”
I am very surprised to see the names of the people I bolded associated with Steve Sailer.
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Uncle Milton:
The short answer is colonialism. Japan, particularly, never fell under colonial rule. Even America itself: if it were not for New England, which was never a true economic colony of Britain, I doubt it would be as rich as it is – it would be more like Brazil.
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To Abagond:
The inventor argument, if applied fairly too all history and not just choice bits of it, like the one we live in, favours the Chinese (Asian) and Egyptians (40% black) over whites.
The Chinese and the Egyptians (relative to other countries (or peoples..) were probably the most rich at the times they were most inventive. I would ask what have the Egyptians invented in the last 1500 years…? What did the Chinese invent from 1750 to 1980..? One could say the wealth came first but I believe it was in tandem and it would be easy to illustrate in some cases that inventiveness preceded wealth.
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The short answer is colonialism. Japan, particularly, never fell under colonial rule.
South Korea and Taiwan were former colonies of Japan. (And I think I could make a pretty good case that the colonization of Korea by Japan was not benign…) Singapore used to be part of Malaysia which was a British colony. Thailand was never colonized.
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Uncle Milton:
My very point: if inventiveness were something inborn and natural, something genetic, then the most inventive region of the earth would not keep changing. The Egyptians, Chinese and whites have pretty much same genes now that they had 20,000 years ago, but history is only 5,000 years long. Genetic time is too slow to account for history.
Also, genetically speaking, mankind is too new and has spread across the earth too quickly for there to be much of a difference between the “races”. And if whites were truly that genetically different from everyone else, then they would have been on top ever since at least Roman times if not way, way before.
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So Abagond, if all it takes to be wealthy is ripping off land from a bunch of Indians and putting a bunch of African slaves to work on it, why isn’t Brazil one of the world’s superpowers?
We’ve actually stolen MORE native land and had far many MORE slaves.
Those two factors alone are not sufficient for wealth, as you well know, nor are they necessary. Yes, they DO have a lot to do with the historical accident of American wealth, but they aren’t anywhere near as determinant as you’re trying to makie them out to be.
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To Eurasian Sensation:
Native Americans and Australians are sometimes derided for being primitive because they never invented the wheel. But the English didn’t invent it either – they were fortunate to live in a region where they were exposed to new ideas from outside which they could adopt.
I had heard from a friend of mine who recently graduated from UC Berkeley that the Maya had wheels. What they didn’t have was beasts of burden. (Oxen or horses..) Here’s a link that discusses the Maya and the wheel:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/349187.html
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Bay Area Guy said:
“It’s foolish to apply recent constructions of racial identity to ancient civilizations and empires, especially when those people today are not part of your race.”
Like it or not history is used in America to excuse racism: slavery is natural and universal, white people invented all the important stuff, what has Africa ever done, etc.
If Egypt was part black African it matters hugely because in America you are told in so many words that if you are part black African there is something wrong with you. Blacks are seen as savages, as monkeys, as not having much of a brain. So, yes, it matters if the people who created civilization were also part black African.
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Muhammad Ali’s 78 IQ-I’ve heard as low as 74-is eminently believable,as he was given his High School Diploma despite horrific grades by an otherwise conscientious principal,one of the South’s leading African-American educators,because the-then Cassius Clay was a handsome Olympic 178-lb.(Amateur Boxing Light-Heavyweight)
Gold Medal winner-to-be.Also,Ali is self-admittedly almost functionally
illiterate,his “political nostrums” having being formed for him by “The
Fruit Of The Loon(Nation Of Islam),which told Ali to divorce Sonji Roi,his beautiful,worldly first wife,ostensibly because the Playboy Bunny
Roi questioned Ali’s tie-in with THE NATION,which spent years stealing
Ali blind.(Elijah Muhammad and other NOI types falsely branded Ms. Roi
a “hooker,”which the credulous Ali believed,and he divorced Ms. Roi less than a year into their sham marriage.)
Also,Ali’s statements echoing the KKK’s beliefs that black men who dated white women are “race traitors” who should be lynched are more examples of his lack of intelligence.
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“Like it or not history is used in America to excuse racism: slavery is natural and universal, white people invented all the important stuff, what has Africa ever done, etc.”
Im not trying to get on Bay Area Guy or anything but a lot of white people(not BAG specifically) will use the “whites invented most of the important stuff” as a roundabout way of saying white, Western civilization is superior to all others only to turn around and say “what does it matter if Egypt was black, you werent there”
Its okay for unspectacular white individuals to lay claim to “white” advances they contributed nothing to but when POC(especially blacks) do the same thing it is seen as an inferiority complex. Black people trying to grab onto anything to prove they are not inferior.
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^^^ Co-sign.
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I understand that in the context that you describe Abagond, the blackness of the ancient Egyptians becomes an significant issue.
But stepping outside that context, for argument’s sake, there are a whole lot of problems with the thinking behind the Afrocentrist POV on Egypt.
Africans are the most genetically diverse people in the world, and certain ignorant Westerners are rightly derided for treating Africa like it is one country. Yet Afrocentrists seem to do the same thing in a sense, in talking about the achievements of black people. I’m not sure if the culture of ancient Egyptians has any meaningful link with African-Americans, who are predominantly West African in origin.
As someone of Indonesian background, I would find it strange to take pride in the achievements of the ancient Chinese or Japanese, just because they are also Asian.
Like I said, I understand the context and the need to boost the image of black people in the face of racist dehumanisation. But it’s still a problematic approach.
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The IQ debate rages on. But not really. However, here on this site, the debate is mainly about some evidence of black intelligence that appeared centuries ago, supposedly in Egypt.
But this focus on some past that never occurred takes attention away from today’s realities — right here in NY City.
It’s the spring term in school and that means the kids in NY City who will enter kindergarten in the fall have been tested for the Gifted Program.
From today’s NY Post:
Results: 40,000 kids were eligible to take the test. The number who made the cut: 1,554. Last year the number was only 874. Does anyone think standards were lowered?
Okay. How did results break down by race?
Whites: 43.5%. That’s down. Last year whites were 52.6% of the total. (But last year the program accepted only 874).
Hispanics: 11.9%. That’s up from 9.1% last year.
Asians: 24.5%. Last year asians were 20.7% of the total.
Blacks: 14.6%. That down. Last year blacks accounted for 15.9% of high scorers.
The numbers do not add to 100%, so obviously they are off a little. But not much.
Background. The student population of NY City public schools is about 35% black, 35% hispanic, 14% asian and 14% white.
The test these kids have taken measures their mental development in the first four years of their lives. Thus, the test measures development that is a function of their lives at home.
What accounts for the black underperformance?
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The other problem with the logic behind the “ancient Egypt was black” argument is that is actually playing the same game as those whites who would use the inventor argument.
For example:
“Whites are advanced because they built …”
“But blacks are also advanced because they built…”
It is falling into the trap of equating the worth of a people with what their descendents may or may not have invented thousands of years ago. Like saying “I’m better than you because my Dad makes more money than you.”
What about, say, the Inuit, who never built anything resembling a “great civilisation” like Egypt or China. So how should we judge the value of their race and culture?
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One of the amusing aspects of the debate about IQ tests is how here on this site the test results take on the character of a competition.
Of course there is no such competition. It is not as though IQ tests are approached like SATs or ACTs. There is nothing hanging in the balance. The result is just a number that is, at best, an intellectual ornament.
It may give someone a good feeling to score well on an IQ test. But the score itself will not lead to anything.
Even though the US military made early use of IQ tests, it has moved away from them. For quite a while the US military has used the Armed Forces Qualification Test, which tests clerical, mechanical and electrical aptitude.
There is also testing for officer candidates. For whatever it’s worth, George Bush and John Kerry took that test and both scored roughly in the middle of the range.
What if there were a true competition among people taking IQ tests? How would that go?
On a superficial level, it might look like Jeopardy. Beyond that, it’s hard to say.
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eurasian sensation,
With respect to what matters in the evolution of intelligence, it is this: people in the present build on what was developed in the past.
Egypt was a primitive place. However, in Egypt, a few simple facts of science and math were uncovered.
Since the dawn of man knowledge has been increasing, accumulating and spreading. The question is who has been increasing knowledge? By knowledge I mean universal facts, like the facts of science and math, the facts that explain the workings of the world. Secondarily, there are the social sciences.
Who adds the most knowledge to the world? Who accumulates the most? Who spreads the most?
On the other side of the coin — who does least to increase knowledge? Who accumulates the least? Who spreads the least?
What conditions lead to the increase of knowledge? To its accumulation and to its spread?
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BrklynBryan/Derek/Joey B/Ahab has been banned. He continues to use sock puppets.
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Nobody can “claim” Egypt. Saying Egypt was populated by black people is not the same as claiming (whatever some people think). You can’t claim an ancient population.
That being said, the obsession with Egypt is not a good thing. There are many other African cultures that are important, but Egypt, for some reason, seems like the most important one. Says who? Says eurocentrism. Europe was obesssed with Egypt. It was disrespectful to this ancient culture.
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Equality means that all people are born equal and should have equal rights.
This statement begs the question. If equality means that all people are born equal, what does equal mean? What I hear being said is that people have (or should have) equal rights under the law. I would agree with this. Whether we in the US actually believe in this principle is another question, but I do believe it is a sound principle.
Abagond’s title for this thread is problematic because it assumes, in my opinion, that equal means people possessing the same potential in all things. This view is dangerously naïve. It implies that the only reason individuals and groups all differences in levels of achievement is due to bias, prejudice and/ or racism. Thus, those who are impolitic or impolite enough to notice that people are not equally skilled at some endeavors compared to other people and who refuse to attribute the differences to bias, are labeled racists.
I think that reasonable people can have reasonable discussions about IQ. To state that Steve Sailer believes that whites are better than blacks shows, not only a profound ignorance of what Sailer has actually written, (and I defy anyone on this blog to quote Sailer asserting that whites are better than blacks) but a religious belief that all groups are the same. This is fundamentalism. Fundamentalism, whether religious or political, is anti-knowledge. Most of the posters to this blog are gnostiphobes when it comes to issues related to race.
In short, if whites were truly that much better than everyone else, they would have been on top all throughout history, not just parts of it.
This is a strawman, which is typical of the anti-racist. Steve Sailor has never stated nor implied any of the above statement (and I defy anyone to show otherwise). What he has written was that the averages for various racial groups differ on various gauges. This is reality. We can argue about why the differences exist, but we can’t be blind to reality.
No human being can be baked down to a number
I agree with this wholeheartedly, as would most people (including HBDers like Sailer). But, numbers do matter, especially when we are concerned about increasing human capital. The naive belief that we are all the same could lead us to blunder badly on important issues like education and immigration.
If IQ is so important and so trustworthy, then why not aristocracy?
Many on the right would argue that what we have worldwide currently is a de facto aristocracy. Herrnstein and Murray, in their book “The Bell Curve”, refers to this aristocracy as the “cognitive elite” and write quite apprehensively of this elite’s current and future rule.
then why not plutocracy? Why not give public offices to the highest bidder?
This is the current state of affairs. Many on both the left and the right participate in this plutocracy, united in their high IQ and ruthlessness.
Why not have a huge maternity tax so that the poor do not have “too many” children?
Because the poor would just have children anyway. We can’t draw blood from a stones. Much better is the current system, in which the best educated are penalized for having children, and the poor are rewarded for having children.
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RR:
Whether we live in a plutocracy is besides the point. I am not talking about that – I am talking about racist arguments and how they are taken only so far and not to their logical conclusions. Saying “Oh, we live in a plutocracy” is ducking the issue.
You said:
“The naive belief that we are all the same could lead us to blunder badly on important issues like education and immigration. “
I have to utterly and completely disagree with this. It is NAIVE to believe that the power structure is colour-blind enough to get this right. It will turn into yet another excuse to screw black people and anyone else who “different” than those in power.
You need to read the following post because this is where I think we profoundly disagree:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/just-world-doctrine/
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With regard to:
“Abagond and Y, the reason why I made those points was because there are great civilizations and empires that were genuinely black. Mali, Nubia, Ethiopia, etc. Blacks can proudly claim those civilizations, and not even the most biased eurocentric scholar can doubt that.
However, when you claim a disputed civilization as a black civilization, that does look like blacks trying to latch onto something as a way to dispel the inferiority myth. There are so many other rich civilizations in Africa, so why Egypt? Is it just because of the pyramids?
That’s just my two cents. Not trying to be combative. If you really want to claim Egypt as black, fine by me”.
There was a period in history, when none of the aforesaid were viewed as Blacks.
The only reason why the above comments can be wriiten is because Black scholars in particualr, and others have fought and made it this way. It is not by a process of accident
There is a tendency to look at history in what I referred to elsewhere as ‘linear’ and this can create its own problems.
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RR:
So wait, you are saying that Steve Sailer is NOT a racist?
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Bay Area Guy:
Why Egypt: because white people agree that Egypt was a great civilization – one that their very own civilization sprang from by way of the Greeks and Romans. Mali, etc, are too easy for them to dismiss and belittle.
I was looking at a book about great empires and civilizations. Not counting Egypt, African civilizations got guess how many pages: just two. This is a book currently in print, the very kind of book that White Americans buy to learn about history.
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So wait, you are saying that Steve Sailer is NOT a racist?
Of course Steve isn’t. He just thinks that blacks are more dumb! Otherwise, he isn’t racist at all!
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Why Egypt: because white people agree that Egypt was a great civilization – one that their very own civilization sprang from by way of the Greeks and Romans.
This seems to be another diversionary argument! I feel a post on this topic coming on!
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[…] Abagond lists his blog’s principles of race-consciousness, and discusses equality. […]
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no_slappz said:
“The IQ debate rages on. But not really. However, here on this site, the debate is mainly about some evidence of black intelligence that appeared centuries ago, supposedly in Egypt.
But this focus on some past that never occurred takes attention away from today’s realities — right here in NY City.”
Have you got proof that Black intelligence never occurred in ancient Egypt or are you just chatting s*** again!
I’ll go with the latter.
no_slappz said:
“From today’s NY Post:
Results: 40,000 kids were eligible to take the test. The number who made the cut: 1,554. Last year the number was only 874. Does anyone think standards were lowered?
Okay. How did results break down by race?
Whites: 43.5%. That’s down. Last year whites were 52.6% of the total. (But last year the program accepted only 874).
Hispanics: 11.9%. That’s up from 9.1% last year.
Asians: 24.5%. Last year asians were 20.7% of the total.
Blacks: 14.6%. That down. Last year blacks accounted for 15.9% of high scorers.
The numbers do not add to 100%, so obviously they are off a little. But not much.
Background. The student population of NY City public schools is about 35% black, 35% hispanic, 14% asian and 14% white.
The test these kids have taken measures their mental development in the first four years of their lives. Thus, the test measures development that is a function of their lives at home.
What accounts for the black underperformance?”
What’s your point? Oh none!
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RR said:
“In short, if whites were truly that much better than everyone else, they would have been on top all throughout history, not just parts of it.
This is a strawman, which is typical of the anti-racist. Steve Sailor has never stated nor implied any of the above statement (and I defy anyone to show otherwise). What he has written was that the averages for various racial groups differ on various gauges. This is reality. We can argue about why the differences exist, but we can’t be blind to reality.”
Now that’s Ironic! Using a strawman argument to counter a strawman argument!
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Abagond,
You are again creating a straw man. The supposed logical conclusion you outlined is NOT one that true racists would draw, judging by the rhetoric on Stormfront, and other sites. It is a conclusion YOU believe racists should draw, because you have erroneously concluded that racism is incompatible with the Constitution. Many racist whites believe in Jeffersonian principles, but nonetheless believe whites to be superior to blacks. This belief is not inherently anti-democratic. Despite their hatred of blacks, very few of them advocate denying constitutional protections to blacks. What grates on them (and many non-racist whites) is the apparent bias displayed by the government in favor of blacks and other minorities. This bias animates many whites. It forces issues like group differences in IQ to be discussed openly.
You wrote:
It is NAIVE to believe that the power structure is colour-blind enough to get this right.
Again, you err here. Why should the government be involved in the race game to begin with? Currently, the government does not have IQ centric policies (except in the military). This has led many to believe, like you, that all groups have the same potential and that all and sundry should be allowed to come to the US. The thinking goes that since we are all the same, it is of little consequence what racial ethnic group constitutes the majority population. This is the problem. Changing demographics WILL make a big difference in all of our lives and not necessarily for the better. In fact, increased ethnic conflict, among other things, is guaranteed.
We could go back to the way things were at one time, when companies could test directly for IQ, eliminating the need for many people to college, but companies have been bared from adminstering such tests directly since 1971 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.).
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Vindicator,
Could you please identify the straw man argument you have alleged I have constructed? Perhaps we have different definitions of irony.
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Herneith,
You have almost characterized one of Sailer’s positions. I think he would more accurately be characterized as believing that blacks are, on AVERAGE, less intelligent than whites.
Believing in racial differences does not necessarily make one racist. I do not know what is in Steve Sailer’s heart. Only he knows that. What I have concluded from his writings is that he has not shown a hatred of blacks.
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RR said:
“The thinking goes that since we are all the same, it is of little consequence what racial ethnic group constitutes the majority population. This is the problem. Changing demographics WILL make a big difference in all of our lives and not necessarily for the better. In fact, increased ethnic conflict, among other things, is guaranteed.”
The majority population in America is white. How does keeping it white help black people?
The more black people the better. And the more people who are neither black nor white the better too since it helps to keep the country from becoming polarized – the kind of polarization that can lead to things like Jim Crow and genocide.
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vindicator, you wrote:
“Have you got proof that Black intelligence never occurred in ancient Egypt…”
Yes. But first, Ancient Egypt was, as the name says, ancient. The few bits of knowledge that were revealed to the thinkers of that era seems to have disappeared from the black consciousness.
The measure is the amount of knowledge a society has in the present, which is an accumulation of all past intellectual advances.
The most backward region of the world is probably Africa. I suppose we can find some remote islands that are more intellectually primitive. But the total population of those remote spots is undoubtedly so small as not to matter.
The population of Africa is about 800 million. Clearly the accumlated knowledge AND use of that knowledge is at a global lowpoint in Africa.
Thus, the lack of knowledge in the present is a strong indication it was not part of the culture in the past.
I wrote:
“What accounts for the black underperformance?” (in the latest tests for giftedness among kindergartners)”
You responded:
“What’s your point? Oh none!”
The point? The point is this. It’s the same old story. Black academic underperformance. However, in this case, the kids who are tested have NOT been to school.
Therefore, their success, or lack of success, on these tests is a function of their innate brain power AND the influence and efforts of their parents.
The question stands. What accounts for the underperformance?
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abagond, you wrote:
“The more black people the better.”
If the black population in the US were to exceed the white population, what other nation in the world would the US then most likely resemble?
What would become of the US economy? How would it change?
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Abagond,
Keeping the country white helps blacks in a number of ways:
1) WASPs, generally speaking, are less racist than foreigners.
2) We have a long history with WASPs in this country. We know them better than we know the most recent immigrants. Our relationship, for better or worse, is special.
3) American WASPs have a better grasp of the tenets of democracy than do foreigners.
4) Increased diversity strains the cohesiveness of the country. Language is one way to increase common bonds among people. As it stands, very few American blacks speak a foreign language. That probably isn’t going to change. A large demographic change (and its consequential language change) would mean blacks would be left out of yet another burgeoning social network, via the lack of foreign language skills.
There is absolutely no reason for Americans to be engaged in this rather bizarre experiment in ethnic diversity. Americans, especially black Americans, are negatively impacted by immigration in virtually every way from employment, wages, education, emergency room care, prevalence of disease, etc. Increased diversity via immigration is a VERY VERY BAD THING for black Americans.
The more black people the better.
How do you figure that? Black people (regardless of country of origin), generally speaking, generate less wealth and create fewer jobs than other groups.
And the more people who are neither black nor white the better too since it helps to keep the country from becoming polarized
You mean, like Brazil. No, Brazil isn’t polarized. It is racially stratified. And Brazil is economically stratified to a much greater extent than the US. I vote no on the Brazilianization of the US.
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RR said:
“You have almost characterized one of Sailer’s positions. I think he would more accurately be characterized as believing that blacks are, on AVERAGE, less intelligent than whites.
Believing in racial differences does not necessarily make one racist. I do not know what is in Steve Sailer’s heart. Only he knows that. What I have concluded from his writings is that he has not shown a hatred of blacks.”
Racism is the belief that one race is naturally better than another. Look it up. I did. WHITE people have NARROWED it to mean just hatred. That way they can keep on looking down on black people and not call it racist. JUST LIKE you are doing in Sailer’s behalf.
According to you if a someone did not hire you because “blacks are, on AVERAGE, less intelligent than whites”, he would not be racist. Only if he HATED you would it count. Does that make sense? Is that a useful way to define racism? That definition only serves white self-interest, hurting blacks.
More here on the meaning of the word racist:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/racist/
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no_slappz Said:
“vindicator, you wrote:
“Have you got proof that Black intelligence never occurred in ancient Egypt…”
Yes. But first, Ancient Egypt was, as the name says, ancient. The few bits of knowledge that were revealed to the thinkers of that era seems to have disappeared from the black consciousness.
The measure is the amount of knowledge a society has in the present, which is an accumulation of all past intellectual advances.
The most backward region of the world is probably Africa. I suppose we can find some remote islands that are more intellectually primitive. But the total population of those remote spots is undoubtedly so small as not to matter.
The population of Africa is about 800 million. Clearly the accumlated knowledge AND use of that knowledge is at a global lowpoint in Africa.
Thus, the lack of knowledge in the present is a strong indication it was not part of the culture in the past.”
If this is proof! I’m not buying into it. Try harder!
You sound like a politician! I want proof and please stop chatting c*** your making my PC smell!
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Is RR a sock puppet for no_slappz?
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What grates on them (and many non-racist whites) is the apparent bias displayed by the government in favor of blacks and other minorities. This bias animates many whites. It forces issues like group differences in IQ to be discussed openly.
Sorry, that argument doesn’t jibe with me. There aren’t enough black men women and children in the good old US of A, to cause these concerns of blacks taking jobs from whites based upon affirmative action. They would barely put a dent in the job market, post secondary education etc. I am a bad negress as I couldn’t give a fiddler’s f$rt as to why white folks , racist and anti-racist (how anti-racist are they?) feel about that. It is time to pay the piper!
Believing in racial differences does not necessarily make one racist. I do not know what is in Steve Sailer’s heart. Only he knows that. What I have concluded from his writings is that he has not shown a hatred of blacks.
Are you for real? He doesn’t have to show ‘hatred’ for blacks, his views speak for themselves. I couldn’t care less if he hated blacks. For him, blacks are inferior so do-not warrant his consideration unless it is to denigrate them. His approach to this whole IQ subject is just an exercise in emphasizing his own ‘superiority’ and by extension, whites. That’s the thing, you don’t necessarily have to hate to be racist. He is a racist plain and simple.
What would become of the US economy? How would it change?
Why don’t you write a speculative exercise on your blog?
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RR is not a sock puppet of No Slappz. They live in different states.
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Ahhh, ok, abagond. So your blog has at least two “intellectuals” on board. Good to know.
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I think IQ definitely measures something, but that it is only effective when comparing people who have similar levels of modernity. Supposedly the Khoisans have the lowest IQs in the world, I think 54. It would seem to me that such a person would be so severely retarded they’d be drooling on themselves. I’m sure if a Khoisan baby was adopted at birth and raised in the Western world, its IQ would not be 54.
I think there are many different types of intelligence, for example social intelligence versus abstract reasoning intelligence. Noam Chomsky’s abstract reasoning intelligence is off the charts, but he doesn’t come off as socially intelligent, i.e. someone that could ever lead or inspire people through charisma and speech.
When you look at the gap in IQ between black Americans and white Americans, it’s closer in some areas and further in others. The gap is widest in abstract reasoning, and pretty close in verbal intelligence. Why that is so, is up for debate.
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@ Bay Area Guy
“Abagond and Y, the reason why I made those points was because there are great civilizations and empires that were genuinely black. Mali, Nubia, Ethiopia, etc. Blacks can proudly claim those civilizations, and not even the most biased eurocentric scholar can doubt that.
However, when you claim a disputed civilization as a black civilization, that does look like blacks trying to latch onto something as a way to dispel the inferiority myth. There are so many other rich civilizations in Africa, so why Egypt? Is it just because of the pyramids?
That’s just my two cents. Not trying to be combative. If you really want to claim Egypt as black, fine by me.”
I agree with that too. I do have a problem with SOME blacks always trying to claim Egypt. I think a lot of them are so hell bend on claiming Egypt because it is the most recognized by Western historians. I think black people need to forget about the white stamp of approval.
My only question is why are so many white people just as hellbent on proving Egypt wasnt black? I have a Egyptian(Arab) friend that tells me the country is pretty mixed. For the most part the Arabs live in the major city centers and the blacks or “Nubians” live in more rural areas. I have always thought of Egypt as a good mix of Arab and black, never one or the other and from what my friend says this is the case.
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What Steve Sailer does is present his point of view right up until it is a clearly racist statement.
The same way SOME white people say all the important stuff was invented by white people, but fall short of actually saying white people are naturally better because of it.
Sailer makes these statements that lead up to an obvious conclusion (that black and brown folks are inherently dumber than whites and Asians) but short of saying whites and Asians are better he stops and winks at you.
He isnt going to say whites are better but he will allow his followers to say it for him. He hasnt literally said it but he implies it had has no problem with his followers saying it.
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I agree with that too. I do have a problem with SOME blacks always trying to claim Egypt. I think a lot of them are so hell bend on claiming Egypt because it is the most recognized by Western historians. I think black people need to forget about the white stamp of approval.
My point exactly. Don’t get me wrong. Egypt was a great and important culture, but it’s not the only great and important African culture. So, who said it’s the only important? Westerners. Africans should know better, and yet, some (not all, but there are some who do), some of them focus way too much on Egypt as if it’s the only important or great African culture.
My only question is why are so many white people just as hellbent on proving Egypt wasnt black? I have a Egyptian(Arab) friend that tells me the country is pretty mixed. For the most part the Arabs live in the major city centers and the blacks or “Nubians” live in more rural areas. I have always thought of Egypt as a good mix of Arab and black, never one or the other and from what my friend says this is the case.
Well, Arabs weren’t there in the Ancient Egypt, but I understand what you’re saying. Egypt was full of different people, all being Egyptians. None of them white (by today’s western standards) if you ask me. Not to mention there were many foreigners, from Nubians to Greeks.
As an archaeologist, I don’t have any problems of Ancient Egypt being an African (black) civilization. I just have the need to point out race didn’t exist as a social category in their time. Or, to be exact, there were groups of people, but distinction was not based on what we call races today.
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@ Mira
Right on! When I think of Egypt I think of a lot of different people, there is no way of knowing of knowing what their “race” was.
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“Sailer makes these statements that lead up to an obvious conclusion (that black and brown folks are inherently dumber than whites and Asians) but short of saying whites and Asians are better he stops and winks at you.”
Some whites still sort of argue that whites are more intelligent than Asians. They’ll say something like, “Asians may have higher IQs, but whites are more inventive.” So that’s their way to sort of get around the Asian IQ roadblock and maintain white supremacist ideology.
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Hiring or not hiring someone on the basis of race would be racist because the individual qualities of the perspective candidate would be ignored. Despite average differences in intelligence, there are many blacks who are smarter than most whites. And there are lots of whites who are less intelligent than most blacks. That said, I think that businesses should be allowed to hire whomever they like, whether it be for sound business reasons or stupid racist reasons. I guess a white woman would be considered racist for restricting her dating pool to white men. And a similarly mono-racially dating black woman would also be racist. I see no harm in mono-racial mating. This is, after all, how races came into being in the first place. Is discriminating on the basis of race in the romantic marketplace better than racial discrimination in the job market? I believe they are equivalent. How long do we have until the government mandates Affirmative Action Dating?
Why are you so concerned about being beloved by the White Man? So what if whites look down on blacks? White hatred didn’t stop Jackie Robinson (http://www.isteve.com/JackieRobinson.htm). Your belief in the omnipotence of the White Man is very disturbing. It seems to me that you believe that until every white person in the country purges himself of racism, blacks will not progress. White people are neither gods nor devils. They just happen to be smarter on average than we are. Of course, the IQ differential between whites and blacks could be used to justify Affirmative Action. A case can be made for that.
Racism is the belief that one race is naturally better than another.
Is it your contention that the races are EXACTLY the same on every standard of measure? There are no areas of endeavor in which a racial/ethnic group outshines other racial/ethnic groups? EVER??!!! I take it you are not a sports fan. Nor do acquaint yourself with the yearly list of Nobel Prize recipients in the sciences? This is what I mean when I say that anti-racists are fundamentalists. Anti-racists completely deny racial reality. Anti-racist are similar to Communists in this respect. It leads anti-racist to believe patently absurd notions like “race doesn’t exist”. It is the denial of reality that is most discouraging. Gnostiphobia isn’t very becoming.
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Herneith,
You wrote:
There aren’t enough black men women and children in the good old US of A, to cause these concerns of blacks taking jobs from whites based upon affirmative action.
You have obviously not familiarized yourself with the impact Affirmative Action has on whites. Affirmative Action DOES significantly affect whites, as the recent Supreme Court case involving New Haven firefighters proves. These sorts of battles are being fought with increasing frequency.
Like many blacks, you seem to believe that whites are either gods or devils and that they can be cavalier about their employment prospects. As if the goodness of the white man is a given and it just doesn’t matter what we blacks do or say to them because…well…they are white and full of infinite understanding (or should be). You must disabuse yourself of the notion of the All Powerful and Understanding White Man.
For him, blacks are inferior so do-not warrant his consideration unless it is to denigrate them.
Could I trouble you for a quote? Could you show me where, exactly, Sailer has said this.\
That’s the thing, you don’t necessarily have to hate to be racist. He is a racist plain and simple.
Ok. Racists don’t have to be hateful. But if that is the case, why is racism so bad? I will put to you the same question I asked of Abagond:
A woman who dates within her race exclusively is racist by definition. Why is this a bad thing? Should we make distinctions between private discrimination and public discrimination? Why or why not?
Tulio,
You wrote:
I think IQ definitely measures something, but that it is only effective when comparing people who have similar levels of modernity.
I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me a chicken or the egg question. Does modernity make people more intelligent or are intelligent people modern? Low IQ doesn’t necessarily point to mental retardation, which is an area in which the races differ. A white person with an IQ of, say, 70 would be more likely to be non-functional mentally retarded, whereas a black person of similar IQ would be less likely to be categorized as mentally retarded, because blacks at an IQ level of 70 are much more functional than whites.
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@ Tulio
“Some whites still sort of argue that whites are more intelligent than Asians. They’ll say something like, “Asians may have higher IQs, but whites are more inventive.” So that’s their way to sort of get around the Asian IQ roadblock and maintain white supremacist ideology.”
Exactly, either way you look at it these stereotypes are meant to serve whites and white only. Sure they will concede that Asians are smarter but they will still typecast Asian males as nerdy and effeminate. Same with blacks, they will say that black males are better athletes and are more aggressive(which can be seen as attractive to the opposite sex) but will say black males are not very intelligent or cant provide for a family as well as other races of men.
These stereotypes purposely put whites in the middle and make them look like the more well rounded and adapted race.
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Y,
You wrote:
Same with blacks, they will say that black males are better athletes and are more aggressive(which can be seen as attractive to the opposite sex) but will say black males are not very intelligent or cant provide for a family as well as other races of men.
As a black man, I don’t like these things, but the reality is that:
1) Black men are over-represented in the major sports.
2) Black men have, on average, lower IQs than white men.
3) 70 of black children are born out of wedlock.
Are these just figments of an over-heated white imagination?
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1. Depends on the sports: Football and Basketball, yes…Baseball and Golf, no
In the 1920 Jews were over-represented in Basketball what does that say about Jews?
2. AT the turn of the 20th century Jews and other non-Anglo, Southern European whites had lower IQs than WASPs, that isnt the case today. Now Jews, on average, have a higher IQ than the average white person, what is your point?
3. Nobody is talking about out of wedlock births, what is the point of bringing that up?
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You have obviously not familiarized yourself with the impact Affirmative Action has on whites.
No, and I have no intentions of doing so. Again, there is not enough black men, women, and children to adversely impact the job, post-secondary placements etc. Oh, I am a Canadian so why would I concern myself with Affirmative Action’s impact on white people in the States? We have something similar here, but again, for all the whites carrying on about these programs not being fair, there isn’t enough racialized people in Canada at present to put a noticeable dent in jobs, university placements etc. In fact, entrants to university get in on the basis of their marks. But even with this there are structural roadblocks to the universities being all inclusive despite the official multi-cultural line. I can attest to the fact that this institutional racism permeates society. I had a friend who had to file a Human Rights complaint in order to get into law school! This isn’t a one off thing either. If the racialized Americans have to go through the same crap that they do here, my sympathies. From what I read of, and talk to Americans about, it is worse there! Obviously these challenges in your courts, speak to the racism permeating your society, else affirmative action wouldn’t be needed still. I have a sneaking suspicion that this program is not being administered properly in many respects, just as these progams aren’t here.
Like many blacks, you seem to believe that whites are either gods or devils and that they can be cavalier about their employment prospects.
Are you having me on? You are joking right? This from a man who extols the virtues of a man who basically says whites are smarter on average than blacks? If you are not, please don’t project your self-hatred on to me. As with whites I expect to be treated as an equal, not as other. Considering that my family has been in this country since after the was of 1812, I don’t think that is asking too much. I, and no other racialized person should have to take whatever crumbs they choose to throw at us and be grateful.
Ok. Racists don’t have to be hateful. But if that is the case, why is racism so bad?
Again, are you joking? It may not be bad for those meting it out but for the recipients? Uncle Thomas has nothing on you!
A woman who dates within her race exclusively is racist by definition. Why is this a bad thing? Should we make distinctions between private discrimination and public discrimination? Why or why not?
Another joke? Let’s get something straight here. A woman can date, marry, whoever she wants. I don’t care. That is her personal choice for good or ill, regardless of the motive behind it. Capeche? Besides, unless she’s pumping my husband or boyfriend, I don’t care. That is between them and their paramour, it has nothing to do with me, just as who I choose to date has nothing to do with them. Just get on with it. Whether I think a woman should or shouldn’t date within or without her ‘race’ has no bearing on her reality nor mine.
Of the two public discrimination is obviously worse as it effects jobs, housing, education etc, especially for you Americans. You can, for the most part pick and choose your friends/paramours. You seem to have a problem with black women who date out when it is none of your concern. According to other posters quoting statistics, 90% of marriages among blacks are intra -racial. Why not use the example of a black man who ‘dates’ out? Why even use this example?
Could I trouble you for a quote? Could you show me where, exactly, Sailer has said this.\
No, you may not trouble me for a ‘quote’. Everything this man has written on blacks and IQ, is one big ‘quote’.
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RR:
Why is racism so bad? If you are black it means you are the last hired and first fired, it means you wind up going to bad schools in many cases, it means you do not live as long on average, it means you will be kept out of certain neighbourhoods – and be made to feel out of place in others. It means you will be paid less than a white person with the same education. It means the police will stop you for no good reason or you will be followed in stores. It means your Ivy League degree is put on the same level as a white person’s degree from a state school. It means that the police will push drug violence into YOUR neighbourhood and then do little to stop it. You know, because who the fuck cares if black people die.
But you seem to be cool with all that. Instead you are concerned about how affirmative action affects white people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you for real?
The blacks in America are treated like shit. Do you get that? That is your SPECIAL FUCKING RELATIONSHIP you have with WASPs. It is a crime against humanity and before God. How do I know? Because most of the people I know came to America from fricking shantytowns in the Caribbean and they come here and do better than most Black Americans. Why? Because they were not stuck going to those shitty public schools that many Black Americans are stuck going to. Because they did not grow up in a society that told them that there is something fucking wrong with them. That is fucking why.
I expect ignorant shit from white commenters, but not from you.
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This guy may not even be black. If he is, he is one of the biggest kerchief heads I’ve ever had the displeasure of coming across whether online or in real life. I doubt he would say these things to a black person’s face in real life and expect to leave the conversation with his face intact.
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LMAO.
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Oh, by the way Abagond, cursing is good for you, It’s cathartic! Not let me at em!
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Censor yourself abagond, you are a Catholic after all!! LOL
What is a WASP anyhow?
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Oh and if God does exist, he obviously doesn’t give a Damn about minorities or the 10s of thousands of children that die from starvation every year. I agree it is a crime against humanity though.
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A WASP is a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. They were the ruling class in America up until at least the 1940s. In the 1920s books came out warning how WASPs would become the minority and America As We Know It would be destroyed. Sound familiar?
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Ó Dochartaigh:
I guess we can count on you to keep it off topic.
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Yeah usually. LOL Adult ADD I think!
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Or maybe your topics don’t address the real issues. 🙂 Like why all human beings are racist, rather than focusing on one form of racism.
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I did do a post on that:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/racism-is-unnatural/
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RR said:
Difference is that job discrimination has wide-reaching social implications on life chances. Things such as home ownership, access to quality health care, good schools, and all the other things affluence from a rewarding career brings. Discrimination in romance doesn’t effect any of these things. The things is, most available jobs are not found through classified ads, they’re found through word of mouth. And studies show that jobs found through your social network tend to be more rewarding and higher paying. Companies will list an ad as a last resort for a position that can’t be filled through social contacts. Most whites are socially networked primarily with other whites. Since America is a nation set up by whites, FOR whites, they have held most the power, money and influence as well as good jobs. So even if theoretically, no white person discriminated in hiring, you’d still have whites getting first pick of jobs just because they are more likely to know people that can cut them a break. I’ve seen it many times. I don’t know why you ignore dynamics like this and worry about affirmative action.
There has ALWAYS been white affirmative action. It’s called “The ol’ boys network.” Only difference is it’s de facto. If nothing else, de jure affirmative action is just a means of trying balance out the de facto white affirmative action.
And by the way, I don’t believe in any form of affirmative action that sets quotas or gives minorities extra SAT points or anything like that. I think AA should be about reaching out to under-represented groups and being inclusive.
Also keep in mind that there are no laws saying that companies have to hire a certain amount of blacks. This is a boogeyman issue for spoiled, naive whites that think it is white people who face the most discrimination. Now the law says that you can’t discriminate on the basis of race, and if a black person can prove in court that they were discriminated against, a company can be punished. But there isn’t some affirmative action czar that makes sure all companies have exactly 13.7% black employees. Nor would there even be the personnel resources to enforce such a law if one existed.
Well, nobody has explained to me how African blacks with IQs of 54 still lead functional lives, get married, raise kids and such. My guess is that IQ tests have limitations. Also what you have to remember with IQ is that there is an inverse relationship between poverty and heritability of IQ. If someone makes $100,000 a year. Most of their IQ score will be heritable. For someone living in 3rd world poverty with an IQ of 60, most their IQ will be environmental. That’s why whites that live in poorer parts of Europe, such as Albania have lower IQs than the rest of the continent. Or why Irish used to have low IQs when the nation was poor and under the thumb of the British, and now their IQs are near the white norm. I spend a lot of time on Robert Lindsay’s forum, and one of the things he has pointed out is that the jump in IQ of black America to 87 from the African norm in the 60s and 70s can’t be explained entirely by genes, because African-Americans only have about 15% white genes and that wouldn’t account for that big of a jump. So there are other factors involved.
I’m not saying there’s absolutely no IQ difference between races. There probably is some variation, I do lean toward believing that the exceptional Jewish IQ is mostly genetic, as much as hate to admit it. And it probably makes sense as they have always been an endogamous group and had to be smart to survive as minorities for thousands of years in societies that were hostile to them. So maybe survival pressure benefited the smartest Jews.
I just don’t believe the IQ gap is as wide as many race realists think it is, assuming the black white gap is hereditary. I’m open on the issue though.
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Robert Lindsay put the black Caribbean IQ at 71. The map above has it at 70. There is no way that is true. When Jews first came to America I think they were at 75 and now they are above 110 (says Sailer). Come on. Whatever IQ tests are measuring it is not intelligence in any ordinary sense of the word and it is not genetic.
There is no way, for example, that genetics can account for the Flynn Effect where IQs are steadily going up even on the same tests.
By the way, I did a post on the Flynn Effect:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/the-flynn-effect/
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Herneith said:
“This guy may not even be black. If he is, he is one of the biggest kerchief heads I’ve ever had the displeasure of coming across whether online or in real life. I doubt he would say these things to a black person’s face in real life and expect to leave the conversation with his face intact.”
He sounds for all the world like a sheltered White American man – he seems to share their particular sort of ignorance, vanity and self-interest – but I am taking him at his word that he is black.
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To me, I don’t care if RR is black or not. In a debate of ideas, the thoughts speak for themselves regardless of whatever his race is. I mean, I’m not going to approach his posts any different depending on what his race is, thus to me his race is irrelevant.
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Excellent point. Assuming anything about his race amounts to an ad hominem.
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tulio,
To me, I don’t care if RR is black or not. In a debate of ideas, the thoughts speak for themselves regardless of whatever his race is. I mean, I’m not going to approach his posts any different depending on what his race is, thus to me his race is irrelevant.
Sorry, but his race is absolutely relevant in a discussion about race. Especially when he is espousing such extreme views. I understand taking the arguments on their own merit, but in personal discussions like this, a person’s background affects the way they view issues substantially. Even the most objective person is not totally objective about race when it comes to their own race.
In my mind, RR is not black, but in the small chance he is black I would be really interested in knowing about his upbringing and what lead him to look down upon blacks; himself and his family. I’ve never seen a black person go so far to try to “prove” that black people are inherently less intelligent and ill-equipped for life. Even the most conservative blacks, and I knew many of them in college, wouldn’t say things like that, they would err more on the side of “Just pull yourself up by the bootstraps.”
This is all not meant to be ad hominem, of course. 🙂
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“You have obviously not familiarized yourself with the impact Affirmative Action has on whites.”
For all the white people that make this claim I would love for them to point out a time in American history were white unemployment was higher than black unemployment.
NOTE: A person is unemployed when they are seeking employment but havent found it. People not seeking employment dont count as unemployed.
AA is a crutch that less than mediocre whites use to bitch about not getting their way. In Texas we banned race based admissions to college because whites said it was unfair. Guess what, minority acceptance rates increased! So the question is who was AA really benefiting?
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‘Ad-hominem is good for you at times, LOL!
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Y:
I agree. There are some good arguments against affirmative action but white unemployment is not one of them. The white unemployment rate generally runs at about half the black rate – EVEN IF you look only at those with a college degree:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/i-am-shocked-simply-shocked/
So, if anything, the white unemployment rate is an argument FOR black affirmative action since clearly whites are still enjoying quite a bit of de facto white affirmative action.
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I don’t get affirmative action, but it looks like it’s something that make whites angry (and oversensitive :P).
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Herneith,
If you have no conception as to the affects of Affirmative Action on whites in the US, why do you grace us with your opinion? If you are unconcerned, so be it, but why then comment on it? The fact of the matter is that blacks constitute 13% of the US population. Minorities constitute about 30% of the population. Other minorities beside blacks are eligible for Affirmative Action, along with white women and selected groups of supposedly disadvantaged whites (Hasidim, Portuguese, some East Indians). These protected groups add up to quite a substantial number. The average white American male has reason to be concerned. But oh, I forgot, you just don’t give a damn.
You wrote:
Let’s get something straight here. A woman can date, marry, whoever she wants. I don’t care. That is her choice for good or ill, regardless of the motive behind it. Capeche?
Capisco, but you seem to be missing the point of the example. If an individual has the right to date whomever she wants, why doesn’t she have the right to hire whomever she wants? I maintain that romantic relationships are as important as business relationships. Why do we require the government to regulate one, but not the other? People should be able to choose their interpersonal relationships in all spheres, including their business relationships.
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Abagond,
What I hear you saying is that racism is bad because it leads to negative outcomes for blacks. Whites exert their inordinate power over blacks to discriminate in areas like jobs, housing, education etc. I understand your argument, but if racial groups are the same, why can’t blacks generate jobs to the same extent that whites do? Why can’t blacks create decent schools specifically for blacks? Why aren’t we creating viable safe neighborhoods for our own people? Why do we need the government to force whites to do these things for us if all races are the same? You can’t have your racial cake and eat it too.
You wrote:
It means you will be paid less than a white person with the same education
Not if one controls for IQ. Studies have shown that, controlling for IQ, blacks actually out-earn whites.
It means your Ivy League degree is put on the same level as a white person’s degree from a state school.
You are right about this, but this is due to Affirmative Action, not white racism.
It means that the police will push drug violence into YOUR neighborhood and then do little to stop it. You know, because who fuck cares if black people die
You are being hysterical now. The police PUSH DRUG VIOLENCE INTO BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS???!!! So, the police are the ultimate source of drug violence in black communities? This is ridiculous on its face. But even if I take what you say at face value, what about the large amount of other types of violence, like rape, that occurs in black neighborhoods? Are white cops causing black men to rape black women in black neighborhoods too?
I am concerned about the standards of living for all Americans. Intelligence, however one defines it, affects life outcomes, and consequently living standards. We don’t have to have this conversation if talking frankly about intelligence upsets you, but you did start this thread. Is it possible to turn down the heat a notch? You are sputtering for God’s sake.
It is your belief that blacks are treated badly in America. I disagree. This was true at one time, but times have changed dramatically. Is life ideal for blacks in the US. No it isn’t. Life is not ideal for most Americans. Are blacks treated like crap? One has to define “crap”. You strike me as a very tender fellow. If you think that American blacks are treated like crap, then you haven’t seen crap. It seems to me that average American citizens, regardless of race, are taken advantage of by the high IQ overclass. But this is less true here in the US than it is in other parts of the world.
Because most of the people I know came to America from fricking shantytowns in the Caribbean and they come here and do better than most Black Americans. Why? Because they were not stuck going to those shitty public schools that many Black Americans are stuck going to
Or, maybe the black immigrants you encounter here in the US are self-selected for IQ. As I pointed out in other threads, black immigrants to the US have a tendency to represent the best of their home countries in terms of intellect. It has also been shown that black immigrants average IQs are higher than the average IQ of black Americans, despite the average IQ of black Americans being higher than that of all black governed countries, including those countries from which these black immigrants come from. Also, if the schools in the Caribbean are so much better than schools in the US, why are Caribbean countries so poor, relatively speaking? And why are their IQs relatively low?
He [that is me, RR] seems to share their particular sort of ignorance, vanity and self-interest
Vanity? Now you have hurt my feelings:(. I’m glad this wasn’t an ad hominem attack!
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tulio wrote:
“To me, I don’t care if RR is black or not. In a debate of ideas, the thoughts speak for themselves regardless of whatever his race is. I mean, I’m not going to approach his posts any different depending on what his race is, thus to me his race is irrelevant.”
tulio gets the gold star for common sense. My race should be irrelevant to this discussion. I mentioned it in passing when I thought it was germane. Good show tulio!
“Difference is that job discrimination has wide-reaching social implications on life chances”
And mate discrimination doesn’t? I would argue that mate discrimination is even more important than job discrimination because not only does it affect one’s social life, it affects one’s progeny. A person without a job can always be picked up economically by his/her mate, assuming the person in question finds the right mate. A person without a mate (or the right mate) cannot be compensated for the loss economically.
“Discrimination in romance doesn’t effect any of these things”
I disagree. One’s mate can expand one’s social network to a considerable degree, especially in the area of employment. There was a theory developed by the radical black feminist bell hooks that suggested that if white men were to pursue black women in increasing numbers, the social structure of the US would be overturned because suddenly black women would have access to the resources of white men. The extended families of black women would be enriched by these powerful contacts, and all would be well with the world. She didn’t consider the fact that many white men are quite poor and stupid, but I understood the main point of her argument, that is mate selection counts for a whole lot.
Since America is a nation set up by whites, FOR whites, they have held most of the power, money and influence as well as good jobs
But then how do you explain the success of any non-white in America? How do you explain the success of Motown records?Or of black men in the NBA? Or of some non-white immigrants? At this point in the history of the US, racism is not a serious impediment to black success. There are other factors, like lower average IQs, that limit our success as a group.
“I don’t know why you ignore dynamics like this and worry about affirmative action.”
I don’t ignore these dynamics. I just happen to believe that whites set up more effective networks than blacks largely due to their higher average level of intelligence. And these networks have been opened up to blacks to a large extent, controlling for IQ. If you are an intelligent black, as measured by IQ tests, the world is basically your oyster. A high IQ is no guarantee of happiness or success in life, but more doors are opened for the certifiably intelligent than are for those of lesser intelligence. This is true regardless of race. I don’t like this reality, but it is a reality. Whites have historically rigged the game in favor of their own (white Affirmative Action, if you will). The difference is that blacks seem to want whites to give us total access to their familial networks (and recall Sailer’s definition of race: A large extended family that inbreeds to some extent) AND make allowances for intelligence differentials between the races. It would be one thing if we blacks were saying “Give us access to your networks and we will do the rest” Jackie Robinson style. No, we are asking whites for access AND advantages. It would be one thing if we asked for advantages because of our lower levels of average intelligence. Again, a case can be made for that. Black Americans didn’t ask to come here like other immigrants. We were forced to. But that sort of Affirmative Action case isn’t being made publicly.
I mention Affirmative Action specifically because it bears directly on the question of intelligence. Intelligence is what we are discussing here.
“I think that AA should be about reaching out to under-represented groups and being inclusive”
This is how AA started out, but a significant problem was encountered. The achievement results didn’t change. Blacks still achieved significantly less even with outreach. Thus, it was decided that equality of results should be the goal. That is where we are today.
Also keep in mind that there are now laws saying that companies have to hire a certain amount of blacks.
I don’t know about that. There is the EEOC’s notorious 4/5s rule in which a company under question must justify not having a certain percentage of minorities on the payroll, or face civil penalties. This is one reason why large companies have large legal departments. To protect themselves from lawsuits alleging disparate impact.
Nor would there even be the personnel resources to enforce such a law if one existed
What do you call the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC)? You obviously have not studied this issue in any great detail.
“Well nobody has explained to me how African blacks with IQs of 54 still lead functional lives, get married, raise kids and such.”
It is because you have a preconceived notion of what low intelligence means. Sometimes, low intelligence is a symptom of a particular malady, like Downs Syndrome. Other times, it is not a symptom of anything. Intelligence is relative, like height (and race). How smart is smart? How dumb is dumb? How tall is tall? How black is black? A person with an IQ of 54 might be able to negotiate his environment quite well. Non-human animals, who are presumably significantly less intelligent than humans, negotiate their environments well.
“I just don’t believe the IQ gap is as wide as many race realists think it is, assuming the black white gap is hereditary. I’m open on the issue though.”
This is a sensible position. The gap may very well be overstated, although HBDers would be the first to point out that the gap is due to both environmental and genetic factors. The important point here is that the gap exists. It is not a product of a fevered white racist imagination.
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Natasha W,
You raise a reasonable point. Although I feel strongly that my race is irrelevant to the discussion here, my race is questioned so often in anonymous forums such as this, that I feel that some background information is in order. I grew up in a typical Northeastern inner city neighborhood where most of us mistrusted and disliked whites. Even though there weren’t very many whites around to confirm my views of whites, I held on to this view well into adulthood.
If I were to meet my younger self, my younger self would probably give me a stern talking to, to say the least. I think things began to change for me with the production of Ntozake Shange’s “For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide When the Rainbow was Enuf”. That play enraged me. I thought it was the most vile anti-black male screed since “Birth of a Nation”. This work was followed by others, like “Black Macho and the Myth of the Superwoman” and “The Women of Brewster Place”. But the absolute worst was Alice Walker’s “The Color Purple”. That book was one long annoying polemic, but what really stood out for me, which wasn’t commented on by many at the time, was Walker’s seeming acknowledgement of racial differences. What bugged me was not her depiction of black men in itself, but her depiction of black men in relation to white men (and I’m considering her work in total, not just “The Color Purple”).
Despite my rage at her, I found myself drawn to her work. I read everything she had written. Slowly but surely, I became a feminist. I would lecture black men regarding their unfair treatment of women. I was a smug self-righteous feminist bastard. Then I got married. Things changed somewhat. My wife did not conform to my notion of a righteous feminist. In fact, she was hostile to the notion. She didn’t give a damn about Alice Walker or Andrea Dworkin. My wife believed in sex roles(which she did not let on when I married her), and I was expected to fulfill the traditional male role whether I liked it or not. After my second child was born and she stopped working, it was a done deal. I soon realized that the feminist idea of men colonizing women through marriage was a crock. It was I who was being colonized. Around the same time, I came upon Steve Sailer. I was in the habit of browsing through National Review whenever I was in the bookstore. I would get a charge out of reading those crazed white racist maniacs (this was in the mid 90s). They were easy to dismiss. But Sailer was different. His article “Is Love Colorblind”, flipped me out. I hated the guy, but like my fascination with Walker, I couldn’t get enough of him. After he was ousted from The National Review during the purge of conservative writers that occurred at the time, he started his own blog. I have read him ever since. His writings (among others) led me to Paleoconservatism. I have to say that his work has had a profound affect on my views regarding race and sex. So, here I am.
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Y,
I said major sports. In the US, those sports are football, basketball and baseball, in that order. And blacks are over-represented in baseball if one includes foreign blacks.
The fact that Jews were over-represented in basketball in the 1920s tells me that basketball was significantly less popular then than it is today, with fewer gentiles playing then, thus lowering the level of competition. Note that Jews were not over-represented in baseball, a game in which American gentiles were crazy for at the time.
You wrote:
“AA is a crutch that less than mediocre whites use to bitch about not getting their way.”
You don’t get it. This is the most disappointing part of the discussion regarding AA. The point is not increased white unemployment (although that is a significant issue). The point is the unfairness of the practice. Jackie Robinson did not desegregate Major League Baseball to increase black employment. Jackie Robinson desegregated baseball because the Major Leagues, at the time, were an affront to the American notion of fair play. Now that blacks have the political whip hand, most blacks seem to think its payback time. Well, whites still call the tune here. Black arrogance regarding payback, reparations or any other compensatory scheme is dependent on white beneficence. I personally am inclined to think the worst of whites (or any people, for that matter).Their goodwill can dissolve at any time. I would prefer it if we blacks relied upon ourselves to solve our problems. I would be nice if we at least tried to view interracial problems from a white perspective.
Blacks (I presume you are black) don’t even take into account that MANY other groups are eligible for AA. It isn’t that white males have to deal with losing out only to blacks, but to many other groups as well. The country is currently 30% minority. This percentage is projected to increase significantly over the next decade. Is it reasonable to expect white men to be complacent about AA? I think not.
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The average white American male has reason to be concerned.
Why would I be concerned about how the average white American male reacts to Affimative Action? You seem concerned about them why? Afraid of a backlash from WASPS to whom you have a speacial’ relationship with. Sorry, but I don’t have a ‘speacil relationship’ with them so I cannot sympathize with them in regards to Affirmative Action.
Capisco, but you seem to be missing the point of the example.
No, I am not missing the point of the example. The right to privacy and assembly/association, is dealt with in your constitution(1st, 4th, 9th,10th). However, in the public sphere, there are several acts and ammendments which preclude the ability to discriminate. The 14th, 15th and, Civil Rights Act of 1964 would serve as examples. While one is legal, the right to associate with whom one pleases, the other is not(discriminating in housing, education,voting etc).
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Herneith,
No, you ARE missing the point of the example. I am not questioning the illegality of discrimination in hiring. The question is why one form of racial discrimination is legal while another equally important form of racial discrimination is illegal. Either we should be free to associate with whomever we choose in whatever sphere we choose or all associations should be regulated.
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To Y:
AA is a crutch that less than mediocre whites use to bitch about not getting their way. In Texas we banned race based admissions to college because whites said it was unfair. Guess what, minority acceptance rates increased! So the question is who was AA really benefiting?
According to this article Non Asian Minority enrollment dropped after the 1996 Hopwood ruling:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0212/p03s01-usgn.html/%28page%29/2
That said it has been 14 years since the court ruling and I know the demographics of Texas (college age especially..) have shifted away from Whites and optimally there have been improvements in the academics of minorities in Texas.
If you have articles that indicate otherwise I would be interested in reading them.
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I said about racism against blacks:
“It means you will be paid less than a white person with the same education”
RR said:
“Not if one controls for IQ. Studies have shown that, controlling for IQ, blacks actually out-earn whites.”
I say:
Which studies are these?
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RR:
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying:
1. Racism in America is pretty much dead.
2. Black people are stupid.
Is that right?
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Abagond,
The data was taken from the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY) which surveyed students who graduated from high school between 1980 and 1982. Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein analyzed the data and summarized it on page 322 of “The Bell Curve”. Their analysis shows that, when IQ is held constant (117 in this case) a significantly higher percentage of blacks and Latinos enter high IQ professions as compared to whites. Here I stand corrected. Blacks do not out-earn whites in this scenario, but the wage gap between blacks and whites shrinks from several thousand dollars to several hundred. Here is a brief summary (see Chapter 14):
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/course/topics/bellcurvex.html
I am not saying that racism is dead. Racism is alive and well and will always be alive and well. What I am saying is that the more negative aspects of racism have been reduced to the point where white prejudice is not a significant impediment to black achievement. Other factors, like average IQ, are more significant.
Recognizing that blacks are, on average, less intelligent than whites does not mean blacks are dumb, nor does it mean that blacks are inferior to whites. Intelligence, like height and race, is a relative measure. Was FDR dumb compared to Einstein? No. They were both highly intelligent and successful men. Einstein was just more intelligent than FDR.
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Another tautology he he he
Recognizing that blacks are, on average, less intelligent than whites =Intelligence, like height and race, is a relative measure
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Abagond,
I must correct my previous correction. According to Murray and Herrnstein, depending on occupation, sometimes blacks do out-earn whites when IQ is held constant (page 324 of “The Bell Curve”). There are 4 catagories in which the data bears this out:
Professional/technical – 102% of white wage
Clerical workers – 119% of white wage
Transport Operators – 108% ” ” ”
Service Workers – 119% ” ” “
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This whole conversation could have been avoided if we’d taken note of the fact that the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action are White women. In elite schools, de facto affirmative action mostly benefits legacies (children of alum) and then some “big name athletes”, depending on the school. So RR, shouldn’t you be having this discussion with them?
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Jasmin,
The conversation would still not be avoided, because Affirmative Action benefits blacks disproportionally on a percentage basis. One could have made the same argument regarding welfare a few years ago when most welfare recepients were white women (that is no longer true). Black women are still disproportionally represented on the welfare rolls.
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The scores of legacy admits are not as far below the average scores for all students as they are for blacks, and there are fewer of them. Many of the athletes are black, so we are still basically talking about the same thing.
And it isn’t just admission to colleges that we are talking about here. We also have to include jobs and business set-asides.
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RR,
That’s actually incorrect. White women benefit more both proportionally and numerically–there are too many for it to be otherwise. And 1/2 of legacy admits would not get into the elite university I attend w/o legacy preference–they make up 12/5% of the student body. Blacks are less than 2%–even if they were all AA (which is impossible), legacies (who are by and large White) are 600 times that.
Black athletes is misleading. All of the “elite” sports (like lacrosse, water polo, etc.) added up have way more players than football and basketball, which may be majority Black. So White students still benefit disproportionately–there are many sports that only rich people can afford.
When I mentioned White women, I was specifically talking about employment. They benefit disproportionately, because companies can (and do) group women and minorities under the same AA umbrella. Out of that group, how many do you think are White women?
This is all widely available information–you should do some research (at least when you are going to talk about something other people have already studied).
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RR, regarding “If you are an intelligent black, as measured by IQ tests, the world is basically your oyster.”
In my world of work this is true. With few exceptions most public ‘majority white’ colleges work themselves silly and are generally unsuccessful in attracting black and other candidates for faculty and staff positions from under-represented groups. That’s a segue to…
“Not if one controls for IQ. Studies have shown that, controlling for IQ, blacks actually out-earn whites.”
The same ‘majority white’ public colleges I refer to above are largely unsuccessful in their quest. Due to salary schedules and often collective bargaining agreements that are based on ensuring salary parity amongst similarly qualified individuals, the candidates that they so fervently seek are perfectly capable of simply grabbing a position at a private institution, where salaries are not public. In my world, a qualified black candidate will out-earn a qualified white candidate in starting salary, often by $10K or more, because this candidate’s race or ethnicity is considered to be a valuable credential.
Success in hiring a black professor (or other candidate from an under-represented group) who will accept a lower salary than available elsewhere is pretty much limited to the ‘historically black colleges and universities’ (HBCU institutions), and those individuals who choose to work at such an institution will (usually?) do so because of the individual’s personal value system or simple preference in work environment.
Interestingly enough, these same public colleges and universities that are so famously unsuccessful in their recruitment goals show no sign of facing the reasons for their lack of success, and they continue to work themselves silly. It’s a maddening and nonending cycle of frustration and failure in the goal of creating a diverse faculty and staff.
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You can also see the racism if you “sound white” on the telephone.
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RR:
Thanks. I need to read “The Bell Curve” and do a post on it.,
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“But when they see you they give you that
“parole board look” like Paul Mooney described it.”
Oh, is that the name for it, LOL.
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Jasmine wrote:
“That’s actually incorrect. White women benefit more both proportionally and numerically–there are too many for it to be otherwise.”
White women do benefit more than other groups (except black women) from Affirmation Action, but they also, like legacy admits, score higher than minorities on the SATs and have higher GPAs that blacks on average. They do not benefit more than blacks on a percentage basis when one compares the number blacks and white women who would have been admitted to selective universities without AA.
And 1/2 of legacy admits would not get into the elite university I attend w/o legacy preference–they make up 12/5% of the student body.
What were the average SAT scores of these legacy admits as compared to the average SAT scores of incoming freshman at your university? What was the average SAT scores of incoming black freshmen compared to the average SAT scores of the general population.
Blacks are less than 2%–even if they were all AA (which is impossible)
It is obviously not impossible. You are making a wild assumption. Do you know the average SAT scores for blacks at your university?
All of the “elite” sports (like lacrosse, water polo, etc.) added up have way more players than football and basketball, which may be majority Black.
Hmm. I don’t know what selective university you attend, but at Stanford, Michigan, Berkley, Duke and other elite schools, the Football and Basketball programs dwarf other programs, thanks to title IV.
This is all widely available information–you should do some research (at least when you are going to talk about something other people have already studied).
I’m not exactly a new jack when it comes to Affirmative Action commentary. Your opinion seems to be based more on wishful thinking rather than objective analysis. It is you who needs to study this issue in more depth.
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Abagond,
Doing a post on “The Bell Curve” is a wonderful idea. It will give us all a chance to examine Murray and Herrnstein’s data and methods and allow us to draw our own conclusions. I can’t wait! This is a capital idea!
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Kiernan820,
I understand what you are saying. What I find disturbing is the inability of blacks to see that many, if not most, whites are inclined to give blacks the benefit of the doubt. Henry Lewis Gates is an academic superstar mainly because he is black. Colleges compete to get THE foremost black scholar (the Head Nigger in Charge, in his words). We blacks are currently dependent on white beneficence. The sooner we realize this, and get off the bandwagon the better off we will be.
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Wrong. I have seen it too. They get away with it because they do not force you to fill it out.
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@Tulio
Some applications do ask your race.
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I always skip that section – only a few times in my life have I been forced to fill it out. “Federal law requires it” they would tell me. Say what? On the other hand I wonder if by skipping it they take that to mean I am probably black.
Also: some places, like schools and hospitals, will fill in your race without telling you.
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I always skip that section – only a few times in my life have I been forced to fill it out. “Federal law requires it” they would tell me. Say what? On the other hand I wonder if by skipping it they take that to mean I am probably black.
Even if I skip that section I still have a very ethnic sounding name which is a dead give away. I know I get discriminated against because of it. Im thinking of changing my name to something simple to give myself a better chance.
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RR,
Funny comment since you didn’t exactly post a statistical analysis to back up your point. I usually don’t bother, since I think you know how to use Google.
1 word: Statistics. Learn them. Know them. Love them.
I don’t know what about “unqualified” you don’t understand, but if 12.5% of your student body is unqualified (more likely underqualified) to attend, and the majority of that population is White, wealthy (i.e., had access to prime educational opportunities) what kind of graduates do you think you are going to turn out? That’s like arguing that you are smarter than someone else in Math because you got a 55 and he got a 40–they are both still Fs.
Trust me, the money in our athletic programs dwarfs all of the schools you listed, including Michigan, thanks to generous alumni. Speaking of which, your list is irrelevant because the only “big” football school on the list is Michigan. So your point is?
And let’s go back to statistics–if Blacks make up less than 2% of the university, on average (to use your favorite phrase), a given student at the bottom of the heap is way more likely to be White. Doesn’t that prove White inferiority?
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with opposing AA. The thing is, people betray their true motives by what kind of AA they oppose. Since the biggest beneficiaries are White women in employment and legacies in elite colleges, shouldn’t that be the main groups you lobby against? I’ve yet to meet anyone who could give a reason for saying no that didn’t involve racism, though you are welcome to try.
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Jasmin :
Great comment. Thanks. No one gets twisted out of shape about white women or (mainly white) legacies, so what makes a few blacks such a big deal?
I find it interesting how white men oppose affirmative action because it is So Unfair and yet few if any of these same men ever talk about the unfairness blacks have to face in general.
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Well, I’ve yet to come across an application that asked for race. I could see it possibly in government hiring where the EEOC tends to watch more carefully. But never encountered it in the private sphere.
Abagond, you said that you are not required to fill it out, but suppose you black and you check white. What are they going to do? They can’t dismiss you for that reason or that’s automatic discrimination. I can’t even see an pragmatic reason a company would ask for race on an application that wouldn’t cause more headaches than benefits.
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Abagond,
In my Ethics class last semester, we had a long section devoted to AA (my professor is a big proponent and has written several book on the topic), and several legacies were in the class. Some people supported “legacy privilege” in the name of tradition even after it was point out that more than 10% of our student body is so-called “underqualified” just by their conclusion. The point I raised was that someone who’s a legacy is most likely wealthy and thus has had access to the best schools, extracurriculars, etc. If his grades still “don’t cut it” after all of those benefits, he probably just isn’t cut out for that institution (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing). Not everyone can make straight As but I don’t see how you can let wealthy White people who make straight Cs slide while criticizing Black students with A-minuses. (Studies show that the difference between Black and White achievement out of those admitted to elite colleges is between an A and an A-minus.)
White students who are mad about not getting into X-and-X school because of AA should blame other White students–there are more of them, so if anyone “took your spot” (which is an audacious claim in and of itself), most likely that person is White.
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If you are essentially saying that having a white partner in and of itself is going to be of a benefit to a black person’s social mobility, I question that. There are plenty of blacks that do perfectly fine never having dated white. You must also question the prejudice such a couple may encounter may outweigh any possible benefit. Remember, there’s a REASON only like 1% of marriages are black-white.
Nobody says that because white privilege exists that it negates any possibility of minority success. Asians may do well in America, but that doesn’t mean mean most white Americans are going to vote for a Chinese-American president. It doesn’t explain why there are virtually no Asian CEOs of major companies despite the fact that Asians have higher IQs than whites. Or why Asians are rarely shown in movies outside of stereotypical roles like martial artists. Abagond’s site when you look at his many posts does make a compelling and in my opinion slam dunk case for the existence of white privilge in America. At one point my view was more like yours. But ironically, it was the last presidential race that showed me just how racism there still is seeing the challenges that Obama had thrown at him. Whether it was Biden’s statements about his surprise in seeing a “finally seeing a smart and clean black candidate” to the higher hurdles Obama had to jump over. He had to be not just more articulate than McCain but MUCH MORE articulate than McCain. He had to run a campaign that not only more intelligent than McCain’s but MUCH MORE intelligent than McCain’s to compensate for the fact that he’s black. And even after winning, he gets more assassination threats than probably all other previous presidents combined. I don’t have numbers on that, but I’ve heard that is really high compared to previous administrations. I pray he makes it through his presidency safely.
I’m not even going to touch the line about whites intelligence setting up better network. I think it’s nothing more than just the momentum of history. Like stopping a freight train. It was in full steam during the Jim Crow era. The brakes were put on it in the 60s, but 400 years of white supremacy can’t be signed away with a pen. It has a certain momentum. Just like the caste system in India may be technically illegal, but that doesn’t mean the mindset doesn’t still effect Indian society and still have social implications. And it will for many decades to come. As for your IQ/success statement, I know Tim Wise has references a study showing where fake fake applications were sent out with equal qualifications. Only difference is that one set of applications used white sounding names, and one used black sounding names. The black sounding names were much less likely to get a callback. We were comparing like to like in this case and there was still discrimination.
Most people are hired by small and/or medium sized companies, not fortune 500 companies with huge legal departments. There is no way they could monitor literally millions upon millions of small/medium sized businesses. They’d literally need an army of EEOC workers.
I think a more reasonable position is that IQ tests have limitations when testing people who live outside of modern societies and have completely different ways of thinking and perceiving the world. Below a certain score, accuracy starts to fall off, and that’s particularly the case when dealing with abject poverty. It’s true on the other end as well, once IQs start getting above 160, it really doesn’t mean much anymore. If someone claims an IQ of 200 and one claims an IQ of 170, the meaningful difference starts to fall off. Whereas a difference of 30pt near the center of the bell curve is certainly meaningful. You can easily distinguish between someone with an 80 IQ and someone with a 110 IQ. However, at the extremes it just stops meaning anything.
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Tulio & RR:
IQ tests might work fine among middle-class whites, but what proof is there that it works well beyond that? IQs in the low 70s and high 60s for the Caribbean and Africa just are not believable. Either the tests are broken or it is not measuring intelligence in any ordinary sense of the word. Sailer has reason to bend over backwards to believe this stuff because it suits his racist views, but it goes against common sense. His beliefs seem faith-based, not empirical.
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tulio, you wrote:
Asians may do well in America, but that doesn’t mean mean most white Americans are going to vote for a Chinese-American president.
Apples and oranges. You compare the success of individuals with the behavior of a group. Apples and oranges.
Nevertheless, a Chinese-American presidential candidate would get tens of millions of votes simply because he represents his party and the party members will support his candidacy.
You wrote:
It doesn’t explain why there are virtually no Asian CEOs of major companies despite the fact that Asians have higher IQs than whites.
First, there plenty of asian CEOs of US companies. However, the companies are not Fortune 500 companies, but so what?
Second, there are many asians in top positions at all US corporations. Just below the CEO level. And they sit on Boards of Directors all over.
Asians are about 5% of the US population. Despite their small numbers they are dominating the academic scene at the best colleges and universities in the country. In fact, when it comes to college admissions, it is asians who lose when schools decide to admit unqualified blacks.
It is more than likely that a couple of qualified asians were deprived of their shot at Princeton and Harvard due to the acceptances of Barack and Michelle.
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From what I understand Princeton put a limit on the number of Asians it would accept – just as they used to do to Jews. It has nothing to do with accepting blacks. It has everything to do with the racism of the people who run the place. They think having “too many” Asians would be somehow “bad”. Bad for who? For whites. In place of Asians they mainly accept lesser qualified WHITES.
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As a computer programmer I have worked at places with plenty of Asians and have even had Asian managers, but in general the upper management is way whiter than the workforce. And from what I have read there is something of a glass ceiling for Asian Americans.
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abagond, you wrote:
IQ tests might work fine among middle-class whites, but what proof is there that it works well beyond that?
Some. It is true that IQ tests are limited by the imagination and understanding of the people who create the tests. Thus, there is some cultural bias. But in the US almost every kid is put through a standard curriculum of reading, writing and arithmetic.
Thus, all people who grow up in America are part of an intellectual pool that is uniformly educated. Therefore, in the US, IQ tests are valid indicators of mental function for everyone. Not just whites.
You wrote:
IQs in the low 70s and high 60s for the Caribbean and Africa just are not believable. Either the tests are broken or it is not measuring intelligence in any ordinary sense of the word.
Who says standard IQ tests measure anything measurable among people in the Caribbean or Africa? However, results of IQ tests taken by people from the Caribbean and Africa who are college students in their countries might show something worth knowing.
Meanwhile, measuring intellectual potential is another silly diversion from identifying the stuff that really matters. Like action at the Patent Office. Or other evidence of innovation and progress.
Virtually nothing is invented in muslim countries and Africa. Also, nothing significant is manufactured in those regions. Why?
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abagond,
As you said, Princeton and other top schools have had quotas limiting the number of asians accepted into freshman classes.
Why did top schools do this? To preserve the concept of “diversity.”
The simple fact is this: asians have been nailing the SAT for years. They are the kids who study science and math, get top grades AND top board scores. In other words, they are tough competitors. Bravo.
As I have stated previously, the student body at NY City’s best public high school — Stuyvesant — is more than 50% asian. Again, bravo.
If top colleges were to limit acceptances to the kids with the highest grades and the highest board scores, then the freshmen classes at every Ivy League school would be asian and white. Virtually no blacks.
As every inquiry into admissions at top colleges has shown, these days it is asians who take the hit when less qualified candidates are admitted.
If schools could simply expand their enrollment without the need to build more facilities, results would differ. But that’s not reality.
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Right, and most of these unqualified candidates are WHITE. You like to rail against unqualified blacks but never unqualifed whites. It is not the unfairness that gets to you – it is their race.
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Don’t forget as well that AFRICAN immigrants who come to America to study routinely OUTPERFORM Asians and everyone else.
It’s not race that makes one smarter, it’s family environment, values and culture
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Abagond, I’d second a post on The Bell Curve.
The book has been thoroughly debunked by scientific peer review and that early in its career.
Today’s neo-racialists cite it for one reason and one reason only: in order to really see how TBC distorts data, you need to have some background in mathematics. Most people don’t. The book’s arguments, which are superficially convincing, are thus mostly kept intact in the eyes of the hoi polloi.
It so happens, however, that I’m teaching a course on race, biology and culture to undergraduate biology students this semester. Their first assignement is to dig up what proof there is that race does indeed exist as a biological construct. I’ve pointed them all towards Phillip Rushton, given his unquestionable super-star status among whites with business degrees who think that they understand biology.
Because of this, we’re going to be doing a whole unit on Rushton, the Bell Curve and IQ later in the semester.
So if you don’t want to do The Bell Curve or don’t have time for it, I will be more than happy to do a piece in MAy or thereabouts.
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BtW, U.S. universities were prohibitted from, having racial-based quotas of any kind by the Bakke case in 1978.
I thus very much doubt that Princeton “has quotas against Asians” and would like to see some source for that attributio. Especially given No_Slappz long record of exagerating and (why put too fine a point on it?) lying when it comes toa rguing about race.
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Thad – I’ve seen some docs somewhere about quotas and test scores for med school. There was a link somewhere in Abagond’s blog. – can’t remember which one.
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No Slappz said:
“Thus, all people who grow up in America are part of an intellectual pool that is uniformly educated. Therefore, in the US, IQ tests are valid indicators of mental function for everyone. Not just whites.”
Even white people know that is not true. It is one of the reasons they give for not wanting to live in black neighbourhoods – because the schools there are terrible (though crime is the bigger reason they give).
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RR…
“I understand what you are saying. What I find disturbing is the inability of blacks to see that many, if not most, whites are inclined to give blacks the benefit of the doubt. Henry Lewis Gates is an academic superstar mainly because he is black. Colleges compete to get THE foremost black scholar (the Head Nigger in Charge, in his words). We blacks are currently dependent on white beneficence. The sooner we realize this, and get off the bandwagon the better off we will be.”
No argument with your statement, and particularly the concern you share in your second sentence. But to clarify I wasn’t referring to academic superstars. I was referring only to the job pool of freshly-minted PhDs.
The rules are different for academic superstars. For superstars regardless of color, those colleges who can afford it pursue them aggressively. You can bet that Prof. Gates named his price (and continues to do so), and accepted whatever salary he receives from Princeton. Where you and I may disagree is that I don’t view this as beneficence at all. Academic superstars make their own beds and then lie in them–and have complete mobility to change jobs whenever they want. For instance as one unlikely example Gates could move to Morehouse in a heartbeat and with a single phone call. Albeit likely at a much smaller salary (Morehouse is less rich than Princeton). So I’m suggesting that academic superstars aren’t the recipients of beneficence; academic superstars tend to have the ability to drag the last dime out of places because the places think that the superstars’ attention-getting activities will benefit the institution in some way.
Princeton itself is an interesting place in this regard, but I have no intention to derail the thread with a side trip there!
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And what is considered to be “a black neighbourhood” exactly? 100% black? Is that what is called “ghetto”? Are houses cheap there? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be logical that the poor whites move there because they can’t afford more expensive houses?
Or am I missing the point?
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Thad – I’ve seen some docs somewhere about quotas and test scores for med school. There was a link somewhere in Abagond’s blog. – can’t remember which one.
I’ve seen ACCUSATIONS of this. I’ve not seen anything proven yet, however. In fact, the feds are investigating these allegations, which goes to illustrate my original point: if anti-Asian quotas exsit, they are HIGHLY illegal.
Twice over, in fact.
Once because it’s ILLEGAL to ban anyone from a school based on their race.
Twice because the Bakke case clearly states that racial quotas can’t be used for ANYTHING in university admission, even when it might help address historic imballances.
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Thus, all people who grow up in America are part of an intellectual pool that is uniformly educated.
Quaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaquaqua!
Oh, my. [Wipes tears from eyes.]
No_Slappz, you realy are a joker. You fetch me every time! 😀
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thad,
The fact that identifiable segments of the US population fail to learn the standard offerings of the US educational system is unfortunate, but true.
Yes, outcomes vary. But the educational inputs across the entire US are uniform. Almost all the same subjects are taught in almost every school in the US.
Studies in reading, writing and arithmetic are started in the same grades in schools everywhere.
Most students absorb the basics at each grade level. But some do not. Guess who?
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no_slappz
“thad,
The fact that identifiable segments of the US population fail to learn the standard offerings of the US educational system is unfortunate, but true.
Yes, outcomes vary. But the educational inputs across the entire US are uniform. Almost all the same subjects are taught in almost every school in the US.
Studies in reading, writing and arithmetic are started in the same grades in schools everywhere.
Most students absorb the basics at each grade level. But some do not. Guess who?”
You! Now do us a favor and grow up, you little tool!
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No Slappz said:
“Yes, outcomes vary. But the educational inputs across the entire US are uniform. Almost all the same subjects are taught in almost every school in the US. “
I would give you the Barbara Bush Award for Deluded Whiteness, but commenters and their families are not eligible.
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abagond,
Do you know of some school systems where only witchcraft is taught?
In first grade kids are geared for reading and writing. The approved curriculums in every state in the nation aim for kids to begin reading in first grade.
Things progress along a well worn path, which, if things go well, leads high school kids into advanced courses in English, science, math and foreign languages.
Even the average student is expected to have some command of all the standard subjects. The fact that some students simply do not absorb the material is hardly a flaw in our academic expectations.
Because I attended public schools in three parts of the US and because I know parents all over the US, I know something about the workings of the public school system in this country.
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But the educational inputs across the entire US are uniform.
Hear speaks a man who has never been inside a U.S. classroom other than the one he was taught in.
NS, I know you’re just a comedian, but in the interests of informing foreigners who might not know, the U.S. educational system is not organized on a federal or even state level but on a district by district basis. Public schools vary wildly in quality, resources and even curriculum.
This is whay American parents are so paranoid when it comes to moving: the quality of the local public schools is one of the biggest issues for those people who have a choice about where to live.
This is WIDELY understood in North America. By everyone, in fact, except No_Slappz, apparently.
No_Slappz, you are a card, son! You get me laughing even on my gloomiest day! 😀
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Thank you, Thad.
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thaddeus,
A few more points.
I am certified to teach math in NY City high schools, which is something I have done.
I have kids in the NY City public school system, which means I am in their schools, meeting teachers and administrators and dealing with curriculum issues on a regular basis.
There are, among the people I know and socialize with, a number of teachers who work in school systems around the country.
It is true that parents agonize over school systems. Part of their agony is imaginary. But some is quantifiable. The school-wide performance of students on standardized tests tells parents all they need to know about individual schools.
Then there are the gifted programs, which are part of the NY City school system, but are not nationwide. Some systems do not need them because the towns themselves insulate the school systems from the presence of too many overly problematic students.
But all this nonsense gets away from my original statement that education from kindergarten through high school offers a uniform body of knowledge to students.
By studying all the standard stuff, kids growing up in the US have been immersed in an academic environment that gives IQ tests their validity.
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I am certified to teach math in NY City high schools, which is something I have done.
Being a substitute teacher for a semester in order to get your certification hardly qualifies you as an expert in pedagogy, NS.
I have kids in the NY City public school system, which means I am in their schools, meeting teachers and administrators and dealing with curriculum issues on a regular basis.
Then it’s a marvel to me that you can pretend to be so ignorant regarding the American public schools. But I guess you’ll spout any old BS without thinking about it once you get in an argument, neh, NS? 😀
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No Slappz:
I agree with Thad. That you can be a parent in New York City and say this stuff makes your delusion even more profound than I feared. Much of the middle-class, both black and white, continue to flee New York over this issue.
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Thad, regarding:
“… because the Bakke case clearly states that racial quotas can’t be used for ANYTHING in university admission, even when it might help address historic imballances.”
This isn’t accurate. In the onslaught of recent court cases against admissions practices at the University of Michigan, the University has won each time. In a nutshell, courts have so far supported the premise that Universities have a right to pursue their missions. And because a central part of UM’s mission is to provide a diverse student and faculty population, they are free to admit a diverse freshman class and recruit a diverse faculty. From the president’s page at UM: “We celebrate and promote diversity in all its forms,… “
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Abagond said:
“IQ tests might work fine among middle-class whites, but what proof is there that it works well beyond that? IQs in the low 70s and high 60s for the Caribbean and Africa just are not believable. Either the tests are broken or it is not measuring intelligence in any ordinary sense of the word.”
Well, it’s hard to say they ONLY work fine for middle class whites when Asians outscore them. My best guess is that they are primarily meaningful for people that have similar types of upbringings and experiences. People outside of that, I’m not sure it works for them. I thin aboriginees may have their own type of intelligence that works in their world that isn’t measured on IQ tests.
I am skeptical about the IQ scores when they are VERY low, like with aboriginees and some Africans. I’d have to know how their kids would do if adopted into the west. I’m sure they’d get a major IQ boost, which would prove that most the low score is due to environmental conditions. If Madonna’s adopted black kids end up having IQs of 60 when they are adults, then I guess we’ll have to come back to the drawing board. I doubt they will however.
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Abaond said:
““IQ tests might work fine among middle-class whites, but what proof is there that it works well beyond that? IQs in the low 70s and high 60s for the Caribbean and Africa just are not believable. Either the tests are broken or it is not measuring intelligence in any ordinary sense of the word.”
Comment: I say the tests ARE broken.
Tulio said:
“think aboriginees may have their own type of intelligence that works in their world that isn’t measured on IQ tests.”
Comment: Lets do the time warp again. Go one step further and imagine Autralia “pre-European colonists”. How would the Europeans measure against an Aborigine designed test to MEASURE their level of intelligence? Not very…
Granted, I’ll get flamed because we know that every child has an equal opportunity to acquire the same base knowledge, right? — Wrong. This is why in the majority of poverty stricken areas standardized tests have lower scores on average than areas of a more affluent nature.
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the playing field isn’t level. Standardized tests may be “STANDARD”, but the knowledge base is not ‘standard’. Its fluid, not fixed based on resources, infrastructure, etc…
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This isn’t accurate. In the onslaught of recent court cases against admissions practices at the University of Michigan, the University has won each time. In a nutshell, courts have so far supported the premise that Universities have a right to pursue their missions. And because a central part of UM’s mission is to provide a diverse student and faculty population, they are free to admit a diverse freshman class and recruit a diverse faculty.
Keirnan, it’s 100% accurate.
The Bakke cases prohibitted quotas. The U of Michigan cases allow Affirmative Action as long as it’s not based on quotas.
Your problem is that you seem to think that affirmative action is quotas. It most certainly is not. The U of Michigan cases have affirmed this and have, in fact, weakened certain forms of affirmative action, unfortunately.
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abagond, thaddeus,
People flee certain school systems, like the NY City system, when their kids are channeled into specific troubled schools. It is the specific school, not the school system they flee.
Those schools are populated by minority students — black and hispanic — whose behavior impairs the learning of the few students who are willing to do what is expected of them. I have not heard any black or hispanic parents in NY City complaining that bad things happened to their kids in predominantly white schools.
However, for those who know the NY City school system, it is well understood that there are plenty of good schools. It is also understood they are good because the kids themselves are manageable.
There is no doubt that means the better schools are mostly populated by whites and asians, who together account for about 28% of the student body in NY City.
Many elementary schools in NY City are orderly, including schools in poor neighborhoods. But as you probably know, chaos strikes in middle school and high school.
If my kids were faced with attending any of the chaotic schools, they would leave the system. But they are in good programs and getting excellent educations that are enhanced due to the “diversity” of their fellow students.
Bottom line — schools fail or succeed based on the qualities of the students themselves. Schools cannot overcome the various social pathologies that afflict students 24 hours a day, which is what critics demand when they point to the failing schools.
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Bottom line — schools fail or succeed based on the qualities of the students themselves.
Bullshit.
You don’t know what the f#$* you are talking about and God help any kids who have the misfortune to be assigned to you as students.
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thaddeus,
As they say — You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.
The reality is not a function of intelligence. It is a function of socialization. This is where nurture beats nature.
However, the possibility for academic redemption is always there. But too few see the light and act.
No matter what you believe, schools are a product of the kids themselves. Not the other way around.
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Jasmin,
Regarding statistics, your point is well taken. Let’s examine the statistics of a specific example. We know that the number of blacks nationwide scoring above 750 on the verbal and math portions (respectively) of the SAT. 750 is the average verbal and math score (respectively) of incoming freshman at Harvard for 2005. 244 blacks scored above 750 on the math section while 363 scored above 750 on the verbal section. Harvard admitted 220 blacks in 2005. If we assume that all “qualified” blacks who applied to Harvard and got in elected to matriculate, that leaves, maybe, 100 who were accepted and attended other highly selective schools. Now, lets take a look at the number of blacks who attended elite institutions in 2007. This link summarizes data collected by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education. The first table shows the elite institutions surveyed and the demographics of their applicants and the students they accept. The number of blacks accepted and enrolled at these institutions totaled 4104. If we make the assumption that the number of blacks who scored above 750 on the respective verbal and math portions of the SAT in 2007 was more or less the same as those scoring above 750 in 2005 and that the average SAT scores at other elite institutions” were similar to that of Harvard, we can determine the degree in which Affirmative Action played a role. We know that, based on SAT scores, there were only approximately (let’s be generous) 400 blacks in the entire country who achieved scores that would have qualified them for the selective colleges they attended. This means that blacks were over-represented at elite institutions at a rate 10 times greater than their objective qualifications would have merited.
Now lets look at the SAT scores of white women. I could not find the SAT gender differential for elite institutions, but we can extrapolate using previous data and 2001 data in which it was observed that men out score women by 35 points on the math portion of the SAT and outscore women by 3 points on the verbal portion. So, if the average SAT score for Harvard for the verbal/math sections is approximately 750, then white women would have an average score of 747 verbal and 715 math at Harvard. For 2007, at Harvard we know that slightly more white women were accepted than white men (presumably, since the sex ratios are not broken out by race). Taking the worse case, white women do 5% less well on the SAT than white men, white women get an Affirmative Action boost of about 6% at Harvard. It is probably approximately the same for other elite institutions since Harvard sets the collegiate standard in this country.
You wrote:
Trust me, the money in our athletic programs dwarfs all of the schools you listed, including Michigan, thanks to generous alumni.
No offense, but I prefer not to trust you. I prefer to trust published data. In this case, you are quite wrong. The University of Michigan alone spent 59 million on athletics for 26 sports , while Princeton spends 19 million on 38 sports. If you have data for your school, I would love to see it.
And let’s go back to statistics–if Blacks make up less than 2% of the university, on average (to use your favorite phrase), a given student at the bottom of the heap is way more likely to be White.
You are being innumerate here. It is entirely possible that the blacks at your school scored in the bottom decile. I’m not saying this is the case, but it is possible. If you could provide me with the name of your school I could probably determine how likely this is.
Since the biggest beneficiaries are White women in employment and legacies in elite colleges
Legacies are not the biggest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action.
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tulio,
You wrote:
If you are essentially saying that having a white partner in and of itself is going to be of a benefit to a black person’s social mobility, I question that.
As well you should, but that is not what I meant. A black person marrying a white person is no guarantee of marital bliss or social mobility (quite probably the opposite). The point I am making is that mate choice is probably THE most important decision a person can make. It is more important than choice of job. The government should have no influence on personal or professional relationships.
Nobody says that because white privilege exists that it negates any possibility of minority success.Asians may do well in America, but that doesn’t mean mean most white Americans are going to vote for a Chinese-American president.
Agreed, but why is it that Asians are more successful than blacks? Why isn’t white privilege as confounding to Asians as it is to blacks?
But ironically, it was the last presidential race that showed me just how racism there still is seeing the challenges that Obama had thrown at him.
Ironic is right. Large numbers of white people clearly loved Obama, this despite the rather meager credentials he presented as a presidential candidate. He was clearly helped, not hurt, by his race.
I think it’s nothing more than just the momentum of history.
But how was this momentum initiated in the first place? Why was the momentum initiated by whites?
I think a more reasonable position is that IQ tests have limitations when testing people who live outside of modern societies and have completely different ways of thinking and perceiving the world. Below a certain score, accuracy starts to fall off, and that’s particularly the case when dealing with abject poverty.
Ok. I’ll concede this point. Modernity probably does affect intelligence, as seemingly evidenced by the Flynn effect. But again, does modernity make people smart or are smart people modern?
Well, it’s hard to say they [IQ tests] ONLY work fine for middle class whites when Asians outscore them. My best guess is that they are primarily meaningful for people that have similar types of upbringings and experiences.
This is debatable. There are blacks who come from severely impoverished backgrounds, like Alice Walker (with one eye, no less), who do quite well on IQ tests. There are poor Asians who outscore upper-middle class black children with college educated parents.
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Grenada wrote:
Don’t forget as well that AFRICAN immigrants who come to America to study routinely OUTPERFORM Asians and everyone else.
African immigrants, while more likely to have higher levels of education, do NOT out-preform everyone else.. Here is a choice bit:
”
Moreover, although their grades were fairly similar, their standardized test scores were not. “Among indicators of academic preparation, there are no significant differences
between black immigrants and natives with respect to grade point [averages] or advance placement courses taken, though both lag significantly behind whites,” the researchers report. “However, we do observe a significant difference between immigrant- and native-origin African Americans with respect to SAT scores, an indicator of
cognitive skills (see Jencks and Phillips 1998).”
“Blacks of immigrant origin earn a significantly higher score on the SAT (1250) compared with their native counterparts (1193), though both are well below the score for whites (1361).”
And there is this
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Thaddeus wrote:
The book [The Bell Curve] has been thoroughly debunked by scientific peer review and that early in its career.
As usual, you are wrong. The book was widely criticized in popular magazines, and by non-psychologists like Stephen J Gould, but its finding were widely supported in the psychological community, as evidenced in this entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve
Look under American Psychological Association task force report.
Then there is this. But even this volume is hardly a refutation of their findings.
BtW, U.S. universities were prohibitted from, having racial-based quotas of any kind by the Bakke case in 1978.
This obviously didn’t stop anyone from implementing quotas. Hubert Humphrey, a leading advocate of the Civil Rights Act, declared as the bill was being debated in the Senate in 1964 declared
“that if the Civil Rights Act were ever to be cited as a justification for preferential hiring practices, he would physically eat, page by page, the paper on which the bill was written.”
To my knowledge, Humphrey has never tasted the document, even though Bakke was affirmed in 1978. (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=705)
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no_slappz wrote:
Bottom line — schools fail or succeed based on the qualities of the students themselves. Schools cannot overcome the various social pathologies that afflict students 24 hours a day, which is what critics demand when they point to the failing schools
I have to go with no_slappz on this one. We can argue about why kids in failing schools don’t possess the qualities that allow them to achieve, but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect magic to happen in school when the potential in many cases is severely limited.
One thing we can do and should do to help those of us on the left side of the bell curve is severely limit immigration. This can be done today. It would lessen over-crowding. It would allow for the elimination of ESL classes, the funds for which can be redirected to American kids. And it would lessen wage competition for low end jobs. There is absolutely NO reason we have to participate in this immigration experiment. It can only end badly, especially for blacks.
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There is absolutely NO reason we have to participate in this immigration experiment. It can only end badly, especially for blacks.
If immigration is an ‘experiment’ in the States, its been going on for many a century.
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rr, you posted:
Blacks of immigrant origin earn a significantly higher score on the SAT (1250) compared with their native counterparts (1193), though both are well below the score for whites (1361).”
These scores are way too high for national averages. They are the scores of students accepted at a competitive college
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no_slappz,
The scores are obviously for blacks at competitive institutions. Didn’t you read the article?
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Kiernan820 wrote:
But to clarify I wasn’t referring to academic superstars. I was referring only to the job pool of freshly-minted PhDs.
Yes, I understood you. The point I was making is that the thumb is placed on the scale for qualified blacks up and down the pay scale. Henry Gates would quite probably be a star if he were white, but it is unlikely he would be a superstar. This is even more true for Obama.
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Thaddeus wrote:
“Today’s neo-racialists cite it for one reason and one reason only: in order to really see how TBC distorts data, you need to have some background in mathematics. Most people don’t. The book’s arguments, which are superficially convincing, are thus mostly kept intact in the eyes of the hoi polloi.”
Believe it or not, the scientific method often involves numbers. Whether one argues in favor of racial differences in IQ or against, the nature of the issue requires numerical analysis. Which is why Murray and Herrnstein include an introduction to statistics section in the appendix of their book. You would know this if you had read the book, which you obviously have not done.
It so happens, however, that I’m teaching a course on race, biology and culture to undergraduate biology students this semester. Their first assignement is to dig up what proof there is that race does indeed exist as a biological construct. I’ve pointed them all towards Phillip Rushton, given his unquestionable super-star status among whites with business degrees who think that they understand biology.
That should be a lively class, assuming you actually allow for dissenting opinions, which, judging from your commentary on this blog, is highly unlikely. Why not direct your students to Steve Sailer? Whether one agrees with his views or not, Sailer is a well read and engaging writer and he keeps the math to a minimum. The following would be a good intro to the pro race side of the debate:
https://peek-a-boo.appspot.com/www.vdare.com/sailer/presentation.htm
To my knowledge, Rushton has never enunciated a definition of race or tried to prove that race exists. He accepts it as a given.
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Believe it or not, the scientific method often involves numbers.
No sh1t. It also involves realizing that numbers are abstractions. quantitative data is only as good as the qualitiative definitions which back it up and, in The Bell Curve, that wasn’t very good.
That should be a lively class, assuming you actually allow for dissenting opinions, which, judging from your commentary on this blog, is highly unlikely.
Sunny Jim, more than any other commentator here, yoursefl included, I’m willing to argue an unpopular point into the ground. Opinions are one thing: solid data is another.
To my knowledge, Rushton has never enunciated a definition of race or tried to prove that race exists. He accepts it as a given.
Which, of course, is one major weak point in his research. If one is going to argue – as Rushton does – that there’s a “black IQ gap” and that it’s roots are biological, then one needs to be damned sure one is defining the same biological type as “black” the world over.
Rushton doesn’t do this. He uses self-ascription. With regards to comparisons between Brazil and the U.S., that’s insane. 25% of my class would probably self-ascribe as black in the U.S. NONE self-ascribe as black in Brazil.
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This obviously didn’t stop anyone from implementing quotas. Hubert Humphrey, a leading advocate of the Civil Rights Act, declared as the bill was being debated in the Senate in 1964 declared
You are confusing federal hiring practices with the university. The federal government is allowed to set quotas when hiring. Universities aren’t.
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Y’know what I love about you, RR? You have no qualms whatsoever about twisting the truth. It’s refreshing to find someone who’s so unconcerned about lying. Most people have SOME moral standards, y’know?
The Bell Curve was highly criticized by a wide range of professionals, including many psychologists and pedagogues. Your comment makes it seem as if the American Psychological Association endorses the book’s view on the racial and biological roots of intelligence. In fact, this is what the APA said about the book:
They agreed that:
* IQ scores have high predictive validity for individual differences in school achievement.
* IQ scores have predictive validity for adult occupational status, even when variables such as education and family background have been statistically controlled.
* Individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by both genetics and environment.
* There is little evidence to show that childhood diet influences intelligence except in cases of severe malnutrition.
* There are no statistically significant differences between the IQ scores of males and females.
However, regarding Murray and Herrnstein’s claims about racial differences and genetics, the APA stated:
There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation… . It is sometimes suggested that the Black/ White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.
And regarding statements about other explanations for racial differences, the APA stated:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support.
Regarding statements about any explanations for racial differences, the APA task force stated:
At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
So here we have you twisting in the wind, RR. You weasle around, unwilling to face the truth. Yes, the APA does believe that IQ tests have some validity. No, they do not believe that blacks are genetically stupider than whites. You take the first statement and try to stretch it to cover the second.
I will indeed point out Sailer’s site to my students, though I prefer that they deal with Rushton directly because, unlike you, they have no difficulty in reading scientific papers. But I’ll point them to Rushton and your comments right here and this is what I’ll say:
Racists are so desperate in their attempts to validate their ideology, that they’ll actually point people to papers that supposedly “prove” their position when said papers do anything but. This is because they know that most laymen can’t read scientific papers and that 9 ouyt of 10 laymen will simply take the link itself as “proof”.
They have to do this because, frankly, they simply don’t have much else that they can point to as proof.
In other words, what they are trying to do is make a political definition of scientific findings stick. In the case of RR/No_Slappz/Steve Sailer, if you believe that the APA task force agreed with The Bell Curve’s assertion that intelligence is racial and genetic, then you’re probably the same sort of person who believes that the pictures of Earth taken from the moon “proves” that the Earth is flat.
In either case, you are not a scientist, but an ideologue masquerading as a scientist.
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thad, you wrote:
Regarding statements about any explanations for racial differences, the APA task force stated:
At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
Okay. So there’s agreement all around that racial IQ differences exist, that they are measurable, and that they always indicate whites and asians score higher than blacks.
As if anyone needed abstract tests to determine the lay of the land.
If blacks never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? Yes.
If whites never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? No.
A score on a contrived test may correlate with an individual’s ability to master or function effectively in his environment. But when it comes to a group, a more useful measure is the environment the group has created.
What more is needed but to look around and see what groups have done for themselves.
Witch doctors or the Mayo Clinic?
It appears that muslims are making a big push to expand their influence in Nigeria. Look for that nation to record backwardation.
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With regard to:
“If blacks never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? Yes.
If whites never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? No”.
Why does this remind me of Nazi philosophy?
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No Slappz:
If blacks never existed, you would not exist. Nor would any other white person or even Asian person.
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No Slappz:
And even though civilization arose independently several times – Egypt, China, Mexico, etc -, it never arose independently among whites. Whites had at least 20,000 years to come up with civilization first, but they failed. Why is that if they are naturally so much better than everyone else?
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RR,
I don’t know you–where I go to school is none of your business. If you look at a list of top spending by school on college athletics, mine is higher than Michigan. That’s all that matters.
I think Thad pretty much laid out what I would say about standardized tests, though I would add that those scores only correlate 16-18% with success in college, and that’s only with the first year. Those tests correlate most with wealth.
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“If blacks never existed…”
…then no_slappz would have to find some other target to feel superior over.
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abagond, you wrote:
No Slappz: If blacks never existed, you would not exist. Nor would any other white person or even Asian person.
My statement was purely abstract. Nevertheless, you attempted to counter it with a statement you believe is based in concrete reality. But even if your statement were true, it would not alter the accuracy of my statement.
Apparently there is an extermination program underway in Congo.
The Congolese government is attempting to kill every member of the Lord’s Resistance Party, a rebel group that has slaughtered thousands over the years.
You might want to consider a post on murderous African groups like the LRP.
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thaddeus, you wrote:
No, the APA DID NOT say that. Rushton’s work is not enough to allow us to say that.
What is your definition of intelligence?
How is intelligence manifested individually?
How is intelligence manifested by a society?
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What is your definition of intelligence?
How is intelligence manifested individually?
How is intelligence manifested by a society?
Very good questions. At this point I know more of what it’s NOT than what it is.
I believe that I.Q. measures certain kinds of intelligence very well. I do not think it is a perfect test. I think it still ignores other kinds of intelligence.
I also agree with Gould that GENERAL I.Q. is a bit of a scam. It’s averaging function makes a whole series of assumptions about human intelligence which are quite questionable.
(Yes, I know that you think Gould is worthless because he’s a palentologist. I suggest that you actually READ and DEAL with his argument, however, instead of attacking via ad hominem assaults as his argument is non-trivial and based on very solid psychological and pedalogical data.)
As for intelligence manifested individually/by a society, these are most likely two completely different things. Society isn’t simply psychology written large: it’s another beast entirely and it’s very notoriously a chaotic system, not at all subject to determinist laws – and certainly not subject to the sort of simplistic determinism you’re trying to apply to it here.
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My statement was purely abstract. Nevertheless, you attempted to counter it with a statement you believe is based in concrete reality.
No_Slappz, you imply, above, that the APA supports Rushton’s view that intelligence is based on racial biology – a position which the Association went out of its way to claim as UNPROVEN.
Furthermore, this sort thing is something that you pretty much engage in on a constant basis. I have yet to follow a link which “proves” your point as you claim it does. In fact, on may occasions, your so-called “proof” actually says the opposite of what you claim it does.
You’re not a dumb man, NS, I’ll give you that. So it seems to me that you are either arguing in extremely bad faith or are severely deluded, most of the time.
Either way, you are in no position to whine about people making comments based on wishful thinking.
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Thaddeus,
You can’t have your statistical cake and eat it too. You criticize Murray and Herrnstein for using numerical analysis to substantiate their claims, which I find odd coming from someone who claims to be a scientist, yet at the same time you dispute their numbers and methods even though it is obvious that you haven’t read the book. You argument seems to be:
Those evil men Murray and Herrnstein use numbers in their book. Oh, the horror! Everyone knows that people who use numbers are evil liars and are hell bent on fostering racism. Even though I haven’t read the book and the major themes of the book were substantiated by a scientific body familiar with psychometrics, a bunch of other non-psychometric dudes (like that Gould dude, who is dead, RIP) don’t like the book, so the book is dumb. Since I don’t know what the themes of the book are because I haven’t read it, I’ll parrot a review or two because I don’t really have an argument because I haven’t read the book
Please read the book instead of regurgitating half digested criticisms of the book. Once you have read the book, we can have an intelligent debate.
Sunny Jim, more than any other commentator here, yoursefl included, I’m willing to argue an unpopular point into the ground.
You will argue a point only if you think you are winning an argument. I have broached three issues with you directly which you have evaded at every turn:
1)The notion that race is a large extended family that inbreeds to some extent.
2)Race is a scientifically useful concept as evidenced by the fact that DNA tests can, with a high degree of accuracy, determine the race, i.e. the degree of racial admixture or lack thereof since race is relative, of a person from a given sample. Forensic scientists use DNA tests to determine the race of alleged perpetrators of crime and deceased victims.
3)Race is a scientifically valid construct which is used extensively when matching potential bone marrow donors to recipients.
When you put your self-proclaimed dogged rhetorical acumen to the test and address these issues WITHOUT creating straw men, I will believe your assertion. Until then, I will remain skeptical.
You are confusing federal hiring practices with the university. The federal government is allowed to set quotas when hiring. Universities aren’t.
I am not confusing these hiring practices. Use of explicit quotas is ALWAYS illegal, as affirmed by Bakke. Quotas are illegal in both the private and public spheres, although more people are likely to complain in the private sphere because it is taken as a given that the government doesn’t enforce civil rights law on itself. Goals and timetables are Ok (http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1970.html), supposedly. Quotas are not Ok (which doesn’t mean quotas aren’t used as evidenced by the Hopewood and Michigan cases, and prop 209 in California. The users of quotas just can’t be as brazen about it as they have in the past). Also, more people are employed by private companies than are employed by the federal government (although that seems to be changing).
It’s refreshing to find someone who’s so unconcerned about lying.
Let’s examine a bit of the evidence on lying. You have consistently asserted that I am Steve Sailer and no_slappz, despite the fact that Abagond invalidated the latter claim in this very thread, so who is stretching the truth here. Certainly a person can simply be wrong about a particular claim. This doesn’t make one a liar, unless the enunciator is given to personal libel and ad hominem attacks, which seem to be your forte. If you disagree with anything I have written, it is incumbent upon you to disprove my statements, or at least ask me to prove an assertion (as Jasmine did). Claiming a statement as being false does not make it so, without proof. Calling me a liar without proof is..well…unmanly.
They agreed that:
* IQ scores have high predictive validity for individual differences in school achievement.
* IQ scores have predictive validity for adult occupational status, even when variables such as education and family background have been statistically controlled.
* Individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by both genetics and environment.
That’s right Thad, and these happen to be major themes throughout the book, which you would know if you had read the book. This more an endorsement than a refutation. You quote them again at length:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support./
Right again Thad. These are also themes of the book. Read the book! You go on:
Regarding statements about any explanations for racial differences, the APA task force stated:
At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
So here we have you twisting in the wind, RR. You weasle around, unwilling to face the truth.
The truth is that the APA basically endorsed the book. On the question of genetic influence on IQ differences the APA equivocates. They state:
Individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by both genetics and environment.
But then, contradictorily state:
It is sometimes suggested that the Black/ White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.
So, genes matter with respect to intelligence on the individual level, but have no bearing on the group level? How does one square these remarks when genes are heritable (related to lineages) and race is clearly related to lineage? Murray and Herrnstein, on page 311 under “RETHINKING ETHNIC DIFFERENCES” write:
” If the reader is convinced that either the genetic or environmental explanation has won out to the exclusion of the other , we have not done a sufficiently good job of presenting one side or the other. It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences
This doesn’t seem like an outlandish assertion to me. But I will concede the point. The genetic argument constitutes a small part of the book. The Bell Curve stands basically unrefuted by the APA.
No, they do not believe that blacks are genetically stupider than whites.
As a scientist, it surprises me that you would the term “genetically stupider”. Besides being on rather unsound ground grammatically, the phrase “genetic stupider” has no basis in science. I hereby challenge you to cite even one paper or article in which the term “genetically stupider” is defined and used in a scientific context. I know you probably won’t because you are inclined not to argue the indefensible, so long as it is not related to race. Note, I am not accusing you of lying just because you are wrong. We all make mistakes. The difference between us is that you have a tendency to refuse to admit when you are wrong. Which is why, I suspect, no dissension will be allowed in your class.
In the case of RR/No_Slappz/Steve Sailer, if you believe that the APA task force agreed with The Bell Curve’s assertion that intelligence is racial and genetic, then you’re probably the same sort of person who believes that the pictures of Earth taken from the moon “proves” that the Earth is flat.
In either case, you are not a scientist, but an ideologue masquerading as a scientist.
Do you recall the source of our current debate? You stated that the Bell Curve had been thoroughly debunked in scientifically peer reviewed publications. I stated that it hadn’t. We were NOT arguing about the validity of the claim that the source of IQ differences between whites and blacks was exclusively genetic. You have created another straw man.
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Jasmin,
Since you seem to be defensive about disclosing where you go to school, is it possible for you to present evidence supporting your claim, as I did for mine? You asked me, quite rightly, for proof. I am asking you for proof. Please provide proof supporting your claim that your school spends more than 59 million dollars a year (Michigan’s yearly expenditure) on sports. If you cannot or will not provide proof, please concede the point and move on.
Chew on this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4722523
Choice bit:
Biggest budget**
Alabama: $123.8 million
Texas: $120.3 million
Ohio State: $115.7 million
Florida: $106.6 million
Tennessee: $101.8 million
Unless you attend one of these universities, your assertion is patently false.
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No slapz said:
“If blacks never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? Yes.
If whites never existed, would the intellectual state of the world have risen to its present level? No.”
If blacks were the only race on the entire planet, eventually they’d have formed a high tech society. Ditto for Asians, Native Americans, E. Indians, etc. All groups progress on their own time lines, but progression happens. Keep in mind, the earth is 4.5 BILLION years old. The existence of Homo Sapiens on this planet is really just a blink of the eye on that time scale. Since humans are in a constant state of evolution culturally, technologically, organizationally, and physically(things such as brain/intellectual capacity), any group of humans from any part of the planet if given enough time would form high tech civilization. The problem I have with the racist viewpoint is that they view development of civilization as being a purely biological event, when in fact it’s the result of many serendipitous factors. Factors such as geography, climate, living in a area with soils that allow cultivation and settlement, a culture that promotes progress as opposed to tradition, distance from navigable rivers or oceans, distance from crossroads of trade, disease, life spans, accidental discoveries. For example, if Isaac Newton were accidentally killed as a child, who is to say it wouldn’t have been a thousand years that went by before someone came up with his ideas? What if Athens had been destroyed by a competing civilization or even a massive natural disaster(like the one that wiped out the Minoan civilization) and the foundation of western thought never took hold because Greek civilization was crippled? There are an endless amount of variables that determine the rise and fall of civilization. Biology may be at most just one factor amongst hundreds.
What explains why Druids were still barbarians practicing cannibalism when the Romans colonized their territory? They were white, why didn’t they come up with advanced civilization. Think about that. Why did whites of N. Europe fail to evolve an advanced civilization? Why wasn’t there a N. European analog of Rome? We’re talking about the same race here. Why were Native Americans in Central America dealing with advanced math and astronomy, while the Native Americans of N. America were still neolithic? Can anyone explain that? Once again, same race of people. Maybe civilization has very little to do with race and biology.
If there is one thing the white man has uniquely contributed to the world, it’s race-obsession and race as a one-size-fits-all explanation for everything under the sun.
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RR said:
That quote proves nothing vis-a-vis African immigrants. The quote speaks of black immigrants. You seem to be assuming that black immigrant = African, but we probably get more black immigrants from the Caribbean and Latin America than Africa. So why don’t you get me the SAT scores of black African immigrants ONLY, since they were the group originally in question rather than combine the score of all black immigrants and pass those off as African-immigrant scores.
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thad, you wrote:
Very good questions. At this point I know more of what it’s NOT than what it is.
Frankly, I think you refuse to state the obvious.
I believe that I.Q. measures certain kinds of intelligence very well. I do not think it is a perfect test. I think it still ignores other kinds of intelligence.
Yes. IQ tests measure certain mental capacities very well. Mathematical capacity is one of them.
Perfect test? No one said it was. Meanwhile, that’s a dodge. What test is “perfect”?
I also agree with Gould that GENERAL I.Q. is a bit of a scam.
Okay. This is another way of saying what IQ is not.
(Yes, I know that you think Gould is worthless because he’s a palentologist.
I’ve never mentioned Gould, though I have enjoyed reading his work.
But it seems to me he changed toward the end of his life when cancer got him. He wrote about his medical experience and how he learned all he could about his disease, including the fact that his prognosis gave him a short future, which he then disproved by becoming a statistical outlier on the survival scale.
It seemed the subtext of his message was to tell people to ignore the experts, as though their accumlated knowledge had no value. Okay. If that helps.
As for intelligence manifested individually/by a society, these are most likely two completely different things. Society isn’t simply psychology written large: it’s another beast entirely and it’s very notoriously a chaotic system, not at all subject to determinist laws – and certainly not subject to the sort of simplistic determinism you’re trying to apply to it here.
Okay. I get it. I asked three questions and got responses saying nothing more than “I Don’t Know.”
Here in the white world, whites went from using simple machines like levers to more complex machines, many of which now depend on controlling the movement of electrons. Other, less sophisticated machines transport us around the globe on water, in the air and on land.
Curiosity about the moon and the stars led to rockets, lunar landings and radio telescopes.
Increasing knowledge of food production in Whitelandia has led to more than we can eat.
Meanwhile, back in Africa, most farmers plant their crops by pushing a stick in the ground, dropping a seed in the hole, then praying for rain.
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RR,
I checked your list–my school’s on it. Now stop being so stalkerish.
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RR:
There is no reason on earth why Jasmin – or anyone else – should be required to tell you where she is going to school (or works or lives, etc). It is stalkerish and therefore threatening. If you do not lay off I will ban you.
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Asians do better than blacks for a number or reasons. Let us recognize first that Asians don’t all do uniformly well in America. Japanese, Koreans and Chinese do well, Cambodians, Vietnamese and Hmongs not as much so. When people say “Asian” what they are primarily refering to is NE Asians. IQ of S. Asian countries, including India is pretty low. Asians may do well overall in the U.S. but perhaps that is for the same reason you claim that Africans do well in the U.S. Selective immigration?
The majority of whites did not vote for Obama. If it weren’t for minorities voting in bloc for Obama, we’d have a woman that doesn’t know which countries are in NAFTA being one heartbeat away from the presidency…speaking of meager credentials. I have no doubt in my mind that if Obama were white, he’s have won in one of the greatest landslide victories in American history given the dimbulbs he was up against. I don’t know how deluded someone must be to think that being black is an advantage in running for president in a majority white country where black competence is never assumed. Look how difficult it was to get white democrats in rust belt swing states to grudgingly support Obama. These smae voters normally vote democrat but so many were defecting to the Republican side that Obama was in serious danger of losing these states. And I’m to naively believe race played no part in that.
The same way it was initiated in India, The Phillipines, Vietnam, China, all of Latin America, the Carribean, Native America and middle east.
Since there were smart people who lived thousands of years ago, I think the answer is obvious.
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Frankly, I think you refuse to state the obvious.
Frankly, I think you forget the number one rule of science: something isn’t true simply because you want it to be.
With regards to racially-based intelligence, millions of dollars have been spent on this topic and very, very little has been turned up of scientific value. If it were “obvious”, we’d have tons of data right now. What we have is mostly inadequate, where it’s not polluted by outright biased assumptions.
So I would say that if anything’s “obvious”, it’s that race-based intelligence is a chimera. I can’t say that, of course, because science can’t prove a negative. I think, however, that when you pour millions into research over decades and find sweet f#$% all, it’s a pretty good indication that you’re barking up the wrong tree.
Okay. This is another way of saying what IQ is not.
If you’ve read Gould’s work on IQ (which I sincerely doubt), then you should know that general IQ and specific IQ testing are two entirely different creatures. But you apparently don’t know this, given your comments.
Strange.
Are you SURE you’ve read Gould – anywhere other than on Wikipedia, I mean?
It seemed the subtext of his message was to tell people to ignore the experts, as though their accumlated knowledge had no value.
Ahn. Obviously you HAVEN’T read Gould then. Quite to the contrary: Gould had a lot of respect for methodologically solid work on intelligence. You’re mentors problem with Gould is that most of the work he criticizes has little in the way of a methodologically solid basis.
Okay. I get it. I asked three questions and got responses saying nothing more than “I Don’t Know.”
Again, youi obviously aren’t a scientist. Not knowing does not give us lisence to make $hit up, no matter how emotionally satisfying that might be.
What I know is this: IQ tests can measure some forms of intelligence, yes. They do not seem to measure all, nor is general IQ necessarily a good measure of average intelligence. IQ seems, inf act, to measure social success better than it measures intelligence.
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Abagond,
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??! Jasmine made some assertions regarding sporting expenditures at her school which she did not back up with data. I politely asked her to name her school. She refused. Case closed. This is not even remotely related to stalking. We were two people discussing a topic on your blog. You are TOTALLY overreacting now! If you want to ban me, go ahead. I believe you are inclined to do this anyway, judging from your commentary. But don’t insinuate that I am some sort of stalker. I understand your reflexive need to protect seemingly defenseless black women, normally a healthy instinct, but you are going WAY overboard here. Get a grip!I suppose next I’ll be accused of inciting racial hatred for using the word “niggardly”.
Jasmine,
I am not stalking you for goodness sake. You do not have to name your school (not that you were under any obligation anyway, as I hope you were aware). If I have offended or threatened you in any way, I apologize.
P.S. If you are really concerned about stalking, perhaps you should remove your picture from your posts (assuming that is a picture of you in your posts).
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Thanks Abagond.
RR,
Asking people for personal information is inappropriate at best, and certainly very creepy. So is referencing my picture–how is that any of your business?
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Jasmine,
You seem to have a very low threshold of creepiness. You are basically publishing your picture. I noticed your picture. You obviously put it there for people to see. I saw it. What is creepy about that? It would probably be in your best interest to remove it. I AM NOT DEMANDING THAT YOU REMOVE IT NOR AM I THREATENING YOU BY MENTIONING THAT THE PICTURE COULD BE USED AGAINST YOU BY SOMEONE IN THE FUTURE. Since stalking is an issue for you, it would seem wise to me for you to take appropriate measures to minimize that threat.
If you didn’t want to share your personal information with me, perhaps you shouldn’t have shared with the world that you attend a selective university, or that you were even a student. You elected to share this information. You didn’t have to do that, but since you did, and you seem to press the debate, I asked for more information, since you did not supply it.
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Abagond,
My creep-o-meter is blaring–I’m just saying…
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I’m thinking the same thing, too, Jasmin.
C-R-E-E-P-Y.
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tulio wrote:
Asians may do well overall in the U.S. but perhaps that is for the same reason you claim that Africans do well in the U.S. Selective immigration?
Ok. I’ll buy that. But it still doesn’t explain why racism is confounding to American blacks or why Asians immigrants achieve more that African immigrants.
The majority of whites did not vote for Obama. If it weren’t for minorities voting in bloc for Obama, we’d have a woman that doesn’t know which countries are in NAFTA being one heartbeat away from the presidency
46% of whites voted for Obama, which was still an astounding number, for a country in which white privilege is alleged to predominate. If Obama were white, he would have been an also-ran, like John Edwards. Hillary Clinton also got an affirmative boost because she was a woman and because she was married to Bill Clinton.
I don’t know how deluded someone must be to think that being black is an advantage in running for president in a majority white country where black competence is never assumed.
It was an advantage because it presented an opportunity for many whites to absolve themselves of racial guilt. Many people, especially white women, were wildly ecstatic about Obama’s candidacy. I was talking to a white woman the other night who mentioned in passing that she and her sister cried together on the phone when it was announced that Obama had won. These chicks were cryingfor God’s sakes! What would induce such behavior from whites if not for racial absolution?
You are right. Whites have a tendency not to expect competence from blacks, but competence from blacks is wildly hoped for by whites. It is not a coincidence that hope was part of his campaign message.
But how was this momentum initiated in the first place? Why was the momentum initiated by whites?
The same way it was initiated in India, The Phillpines, Vietnam, China, all of Latin America, the Carribean, Native America and middle east.
I mean winning momentum. The Philippines , parts of Vietnam and China, many parts of Latin America and the Caribbean are still desperately poor. Why is it that whites are currently winning in the achievement game?
Since there were smart people who lived thousands of years ago, I think the answer is obvious.
No, I don’t think the answer is obvious. The smart people from ages ago were modern for their time.
So why don’t you get me the SAT scores of black African immigrants ONLY, since they were the group originally in question rather than combine the score of all black immigrants and pass those off as African-immigrant scores.
You are right tulio. The scores are definitely conflated. I haven’t been able to find a listing of SAT scores by country of origin for immigrants. If you find such a list, please post it.
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Thaddeus wrote:
You keep bringing up The Bell Curve as proof of this. I keep on saying that TBC has been debunked on this point.
This is what you are writing…now. You originally stated that the book had been debunked in its entirety. You wrote:
The book has been thoroughly debunked by scientific peer review and that early in its career.
The authors of the Bell Curve devote a whopping 60, not necessarily contiguous, pages to discussing the alleged genetic component of racial differences in IQ. This is for a book that is 845 pages long. The genetic portion of the book is minor compared to its main assertions, namely:
1)What we regard as intelligence in the West is positively correlated with IQ.
2)Intelligence influences life outcomes.
3)The races differ in terms of average IQ.
4)The differences between the races can’t be attributed to test bias.
There were many, including Stephen J. Gould, who questioned the four points stated above and affirmed by the APA. You originally didn’t make any distinctions between the various criticisms of the book, probably because you didn’t read the book and had no point of reference, other than the smattering of reviews that you read.
The APA very clearly claims it believes in IQ for some purposes.
It does not:
1) Claim that IQ is an adequate measure of all forms of intelligence.
2) Claim that IQ is predominantly biological in nature.
3) Claim that there’s a good, solid evidentary basis to link IQ and biological race.
The authors of “The Bell Curve” have not asserted the first 2 claims you list. They stated that they were agnostic on the degree genes influence the racial difference in IQ (pg 311). The authors also state that researchers disagree as to the influence of genes on racial differences in IQ, but that the authors felt compelled to look at genetic influences because:
The assumption of genetic cognitive equality among the races has practical consequences that require us to confront the assumption directly
As I said, the only thing the APA accepts about TBC is its understanding that IQ is a valid measure of some forms of intelligence.
This is clearly not true, as I stated previously The APA assert the major themes of “The Bell Curve”:
* IQ scores have high predictive validity for individual differences in school achievement.
* IQ scores have predictive validity for adult occupational status, even when variables such as education and family background have been statistically controlled.
* Individual differences in intelligence are substantially influenced by both genetics and environment.
And:
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support.
These are the themes, among others, outlined in “The Bell Curve”. Please read the book. We can’t continue this debate until you are better informed as to what Murray and Herrnstein have actually written.
The ABA quite clearly rejects as UNPROVEN The Bell Curve’s hypothesis that race is a biological artefact
You are wrong on two counts. No where do the authors of “The Bell Curve” state that race is a biological artifact. They take it as a given. And the APA does not reject the notion of race as a biological artifact.
But that point was never under debate among us, was it, RR/Steve/NS?
You are a liar. That much is not debatable.
The APA does not believe that biological race determines intelligence, as you’ve claimed above.
You are clearly lying now. I never wrote that the APA stated the above. They obviously don’t believe that genetics plays a role in racial differences in IQ. And I never asserted such. Again, focus on what I actually write, instead of what you wish me to write.
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Whites have a tendency not to expect competence from blacks, but competence from blacks is wildly hoped for by whites.
Whites don’t care about black folk, why do you think they do? What’s with you and white folk? You seem to be enamoured of them.
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RR:
You know your motives so it seems innocent to you, but she does not. I do not think she is being unreasonable. Some strange man on the Internet is asking her where she goes to school? Come on. Her picture, if anything, makes it worse, especially if “Jasmin” is her true name and not an Internet handle. It would be enough to find her, especially if you can think of a good story. And if not you, then some deranged lurker.
And your apology was one of those non-apologies where you do not admit you did anything wrong. Then you go on and more or less blame her for the whole thing. Whatever your motives and thinking, it clearly did not set her mind at ease. Nor even Leigh’s.
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Herneith,
Many whites clearly care about blacks. That’s why they supported that thing in the 60s…what was it called again….The Civil Rights Movement. That’s right. And what’s that thing we were discussing that favored blacks and other minorities….oh yeah, Affirmative Action. Yeah, many whites support that. And that Colored dude who was elected president. You know, the one white women swoon over. Yeah, Barak Obama. That’s his name. It seems to me that a large number of white people are lovin’ themselves some Negroes!
Me? Yeah, I guess me and white people are like peas in a pod. They really like me, until they find out that I’m not exactly on board with the whole Liberal agenda (or Conservative agenda for that matter). Then things get dicey.
I’m not enamored of whites. I’m just more realistic about the situation facing blacks Americans than most people, especially blacks.
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thaddeus, you wrote:
Frankly, I think you forget the number one rule of science: something isn’t true simply because you want it to be.
Okay. Well, we have yet to nail down exactly what gravity is. But despite our lack of a complete grasp, we whites can make planes fly, rockets soar, and we know the acceleration gravity imposes on a body anywhere in this solar system.
Intelligence is similar. We know a lot about it; we know where we can find it; we know what it does; we know it varies; and we know it can be developed.
But we do not know exactly what it is. However, given everything we do know, the missing information is unimportant.
Unfortunately, a lot of people, like you, want to dither around, filling space with jargon-filled diatribes about what IQ is, or is not, while a vast tract of humanity still lives in intellectual caves.
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Me? Yeah, I guess me and white people are like peas in a pod. They really like me, until they find out that I’m not exactly on board with the whole Liberal agenda (or Conservative agenda for that matter). Then things get dicey. Many whites clearly care about blacks.
I am sure they do, too bad they are in a small minority.(violin concerto plays mournfully in the background) In any case, I don’t give a sh@t as to whether or not they ‘care’ for me as my name ain’t aunt Jamammy. People will either like you or not regardless of race or inspite of race. That a person or group could ‘care’ for a lil ol nigress like myself does not bring me tears of joy. I am not going to break out in a spiritual or start talking in tongues Sorry, but white benevolence has never been my thing. As a tax paying fully enfranchised member of society, equality is my right, not some crumbs meted out by whites who ‘care’ for me. I’ve been the butt of their benevolence, and it was anything but caring.
Me? Yeah, I guess me and white people are like peas in a pod.
Ya think?
It seems to me that a large number of white people are lovin’ themselves some Negroes!
Yes, as long as these ‘negroes’ know their place! Watch out when they don’t know their place, then it will be time to get out!
I’m just more realistic about the situation facing blacks Americans than most people, especially blacks.
Yes, you are an arbiter on the black condition.
Lets have a little speculative exercise, shall we? There are ten men on a life boat, 9 white and one black. The life boat starts to sink due to it being overloaded. If one person was to be thrown overboard, this would alleviate the problem. Guess who gets thrown overboard? Ten points for the right answer! Lets see how caring your white folks are then!
Another speculative excercise/fiction; You and slappz should get your own television show! He could play a Jack Benny character, and you could play Rochester as whites are on averagem smarter than blacks. This show whould be illustrative of those facts. Steve Sailor could direct and produce it!
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@ RR:
co-sign with Abagond, Jasmin and leigh204. I’m sure you meant Jasmin no wrong by your personal questions about her. But forget for a moment what your intentions might have been, and think of how it came across, because that is just as important. And how it came across is creepy.
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Well, we have yet to nail down exactly what gravity is. But despite our lack of a complete grasp, we whites can make planes fly, rockets soar, and we know the acceleration gravity imposes on a body anywhere in this solar system.
Intelligence is similar. We know a lot about it; we know where we can find it; we know what it does; we know it varies; and we know it can be developed.
We don’t know its limits and we certainly don’t know to what degree biology impacts upon it.
But there is one things we DO know: race is not a biological artefact. In fact, races and subspecies are evn being rejected throughout biology for species other than humans. Clinactic distribution describes the patterns in human biology better than race does. Race is an obsolete theory. Trying to link intelligence to BIOLOGICAL (rather than socially construed) race is as “scientific” as trying to link intelligence to the movement of the planets.
Unfortunately, a lot of people, like you, want to dither around, filling space with jargon-filled diatribes about what IQ is, or is not, while a vast tract of humanity still lives in intellectual caves.
Sunny Jim, I TEACH for a living in a third world country. What do you do, oh crusader for human worth? 😀
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Thad,
Read the book. You know nothing of the themes of the book. Do some work. Read the book. Then we can rap.
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Eurasian Sensation said:
“@ RR:
co-sign with Abagond, Jasmin and leigh204. I’m sure you meant Jasmin no wrong by your personal questions about her. But forget for a moment what your intentions might have been, and think of how it came across, because that is just as important. And how it came across is creepy.”
RR:
Imagine if Jasmin was your daughter away at college and some man on the Internet wanted to know where she went to school. I doubt you would like it.
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Unfortunately, a lot of people, like you, want to dither around, filling space with jargon-filled diatribes about what IQ is, or is not, while a vast tract of humanity still lives in intellectual caves.
Sunny Jim, I TEACH for a living in a third world country. What do you do, oh crusader for human worth?
He provides people with diatribes as to how stupid black people are and seems to have an obsession with why there are no ‘successful’ black nations. He loves black athletes and entertainers though! He also loves high-end black bars in Harlem, hooker hangouts, drug infested neighbourhoods, Costco, Korean grocery stores where the propietress’s routinely get cursed out by black women etc. An altogether complex, contradictory, and fascinating person!
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Thad, Herneith, G-Ball, etc:
1. Please call commenters by their right names. RR is not “Steve” and No Slappz is not “Slappy”. However you may shorten their names – like leigh204 to Leigh or mynameismyname to MNIMN, etc – but do not use comical variants.
2. Do not doubt a commenter’s race. So please do not call black commenters white, etc. As Tulio pointed out, it amounts to an ad hominem.
Failure to comply will result in comment deletion.
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thad, you wrote:
We don’t know its limits and we certainly don’t know to what degree biology impacts upon it.
We don’t know the limits of intelligence because it IS biological. After all, we are not rocks. Or, are you now going to claim that modern man is no more intellectually endowed than a neanderthal?
I also agree with the last part of your statement — that we do not know the degree of biology’s impact. However, the advancement of the societies formed by various groups seem to answer the question.
You wrote:
But there is one things we DO know: race is not a biological artefact.
Says you, without a shred of evidence.
In fact, races and subspecies are evn being rejected throughout biology for species other than humans.
Really? Who’s doing the rejecting? White biologists or black? I have a feeling there’s research grants available for topics such as this one. Like Global Warming, a hoax topped only by religion.
Clinactic distribution describes the patterns in human biology better than race does. Race is an obsolete theory. Trying to link intelligence to BIOLOGICAL (rather than socially construed) race is as “scientific” as trying to link intelligence to the movement of the planets.
Assuming “clinactic” should have been “climatic”, it appears you are telling me intelligence is a function of the weather. Okay. I’m sure 120-degree desert heat would have slowed the workings of Newton’s brain.
On that basis, there should have been an intellectual flowering among blacks in America in the century and a half since the end of slavery. In fact, blacks living in some balmier climates have made substantial academic/intellectual gains in the last 150 years. But the gap is still apparent.
On the other hand, as soon the right of blacks to compete with whites in athletics was acknowledged, it was obvious which race would dominate. Are whites complaining? Is that what all those sports programs are? Complaints? Is that what all the money in pro sports is? More complaints?
Up above you stated the impact of biology on intelligence was unknown. But you end your rant claiming it is known, and you put the impact at zero. I think this topic makes you nervous. You don’t know what you believe. Or, you’d rather not admit what you have observed.
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Read the book. You know nothing of the themes of the book. Do some work. Read the book. Then we can rap.
I have read the book. In fact, I read it for the first time back in the 1980s when it came out.
Very simply, The Bell Curve’s views on IQ are not noteworthy and if it stuck to that, it wouldn’t have made a fuss.
The only thing noteworthy about the book is the authors’ implied thesis that IQ has a racially genetic basis. This thesis has been thoroughly debunked.
This thesis is the only reason that this book was brought up for discussion here, so the general discussion re: IQ in the book is simply not germaine to our argument.
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Here’s a quote from anthropologist Melvin Konner, taken from the Wiki, which adequately expresses the main problem of The Bell Curve:
This book presented strong evidence that genes play a role in intelligence but linked it to the unsupported claim that genes explain the small but consistent black-white difference in IQ. The juxtaposition of good argument with a bad one seemed politically motivated, and persuasive refutations soon appeared. Actually, African-Americans have excelled in virtually every enriched environment they have been placed in, most of which they were previously barred from, and this in only the first decade or two of improved but still not equal opportunity. It is likely that the real curves for the two races will one day be superimposable on each other, but this may require decades of change and different environments for different people. Claims about genetic potential are meaningless except in light of this requirement.
What I like about it is his explicit pointing out of the rhetorical trick the authors played.
By linking a non-controversial and well-supported claim (intelligence has some genetic basis; IQ is a good predictor for economic success) to an extremely controversial and non-supported claim (the IQ gap between blacks and whites is perhaps genetic), the authors sought to give the second claim a patina of respectability.
RR/Steve/NS’ defense of the book on these grounds is evidence that this rhetorical trick was well understood by racists.
Here are the steps in this sort of dodge, for anyone who’s following them:
1) RR/Steve/NS’ starts out above by claiming that TBC “proves” blacks are genetically inferior to whites when it comes to intelligence.
2) I claim that TBC has been thoroughly debunked. I should have said “On this point”, but foolishly believed that this would be a given, due to the context of the debate. Unfortunately, I’m not debating with rational people propelled by good faith, but racialists (or even racists) propelled by ideology, so…
3) Steve/RR/NS then complains that “No, the book’s claims that there exists an IQ gap and that IQ is a good predictor for some things WEREN’T debunked. Thus the authors’ views on race thus must have validity and I must not have read the book.
It’s a bit as if one were to write a book claiming that “Gravity exists and, by the way, your mother is a whore.”
Of course, the average person is going to respond by yelling “WHAT? That’s insane and you are an a$$hole!”
To which the authors reply, “Oh, my. Look at our critics. Not only do they deny that gravity exists, they’re now resorting to ad hominem attacks against us because they can’t mount an adequate refutation of our hypothesis.”
It’s a very sneaky and politically-motivated trick which Hernstien and Murray have attempted to pull off here and, like I have said above, it has been very thoroughly debunked.
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Thank you for laying that out.
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To Abagond:
It means that the police will push drug violence into YOUR neighbourhood and then do little to stop it.
How do police push drug violence into a neighborhood..? I Know that I along with a number of other people, about 3/4s of whom are Black, have pushed drug violence out of neighborhood where I own a property. (Neighborhood watch organization that met with city officials and police..) Police respond to organized complaints.. drug dealers seek neighborhoods where few protest their presence.
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To Abagond:
It means that the police will push drug violence into YOUR neighbourhood and then do little to stop it.
Street level drug dealers follow the path of least resistance and frequently have some of base in the neighborhood.. a girlfriend or some relative with an apartment. In reality our neighborhood watch organization was more successful using Oakland’s drug abatement laws to remove people who facilitated the drug dealing than by going directly to the police.
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thaddeus, you wrote:
Actually, African-Americans have EXCELLED in virtually every enriched environment they have been placed in, most of which they were previously barred from, and this in only the first decade or two of improved but still not equal opportunity.
Excelled? Wrong word. When it comes to academics, blacks have improved. In many cases, a lot. But not excelled.
Regarding activities in which blacks have excelled — in a word: Sports.
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RR:
I am sorry I doubted your race. It was a low ad hominem blow, one that not only set a terrible example for everyone else on this blog but made me turn a blind eye to what Thad was doing. It is something that no one should have to put up with. I see that now. I will not do it again to you or any other commenter.
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Uncle Milton:
Right, when drug dealers are cleaned out of one neighbourhood they go to another one. So in time they wind up in the neighbourhoods that the police care least about – a black or Latino one, particularly a poor one. Then who gets blamed for drug violence and the high rates of murder that follow from it? Not the police – and not even the drug dealers. Instead it is blamed on blacks and Latinos!
So then you get people who come on here and AGREE that “black people do bad things because they are black”.
Do you get where I am coming from on this?
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Jasmin,
I apologize for my inappropriate question. It was not my intention to pry into your private life. From now on, I will refrain from making personal inquiries.
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Thaddeus wrote:
“I have read the book. In fact, I read it for the first time back in the 1980s when it came out.”
Perhaps you are thinking of another book. The Bell Curve by Murray and Herrnstein was published in 1994!
Could you at least coordinate your lies?
“I claim that TBC has been thoroughly debunked. I should have said “On this point”, but foolishly believed that this would be a given, due to the context of the debate.”
Since you hadn’t read the book, you didn’t know what was in it, so you foolishly regurgitated snippets of reviews that you thought covered the book in its entirety.
Read the book. Then we can rap
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Abagond,
What race/ethnicity are the drug dealers? Are the drug dealers run out of white neighborhoods and then corralled into black and Hispanic neighborhoods? This is not to say that whites don’t have their own drug problems. Meth seems to be a big problem in some white communities. But to my knowledge, there are no Meth factories or dealers in black communities, although MS-13 and other Hispanic gangs have gotten into the Meth business big time (another gift of unrestricted immigration).
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Black and Latino.
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Perhaps you are thinking of another book. The Bell Curve by Murray and Herrnstein was published in 1994!
Correct. I rwad it in my Statistics for Sociologists class in 1998 at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, where our professor assigned it as required reading and told us to examine its methodologies.
Your point being…?
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Thaddeus,
The point being you don’t know what you are talking about! You said you read the book in the 1980s (even though the book was published in 1994), which seems to me to be more than a typo. This in conjuction with the other inconsistencies you have made reagarding the book and the fact that you seem to have no original thoughts regarding the book’s themes leads me to believe that you have never read the book.
If you have read the book, please re-read the book, because you obviously didn’t read the book very carefully. After you have digested the book, we can rap.
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Abagond,
So, the drug dealers were black and Latino. Did the police force these black and Latino folks to become drug dealers? Are the police forcing black and Latinos to use drugs? And what of the other non-drug related crimes, like rape, that occur in black and Latino neighborhoods? Are the police the source of those crimes too?
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Who said anything about rape? Why is that always brought up? How come no one brings up gambling which, looking at the numbers, is a far worse vice among blacks as compared to whites?
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RR said:
“So, the drug dealers were black and Latino. Did the police force these black and Latino folks to become drug dealers? Are the police forcing black and Latinos to use drugs? And what of the other non-drug related crimes, like rape, that occur in black and Latino neighborhoods? Are the police the source of those crimes too?”
Where to begin?
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RR said:
“So, the drug dealers were black and Latino. Did the police force these black and Latino folks to become drug dealers? Are the police forcing black and Latinos to use drugs? And what of the other non-drug related crimes, like rape, that occur in black and Latino neighborhoods? Are the police the source of those crimes too?”
I would love to be your gardener. It would be such easy money! Because any time you complained about the weeds, I would just say, “I am not the source of those weeds. I did not make them grow. They just got there somehow.” Shrug, shrug.
And while I am at it maybe you can hire me to be the private tutor for your children. That would be easy money too. Because if they do badly in their studies I will just say, “Some people are just born with less intelligence than others.” Shrug, shrug.
I will look after your dog too! If he gets hit by a car I can just say that I did not force the driver to hit your dog.
In fact if you or No Slappz have anything at all you want me to look after and take care of, I’m your man!
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Abagond,
I bring up rape because most people are under the impression that the police are:
1) Craze racists who let crime run rampant in black neighborhoods because they don’t give a damn about blacks.
or
2) Crazed racists who wage war on black men by incarcerating them through an unjust racist penal system. The thinking goes that these drug dealing black men are only trying to earn money through the drug trade to support their families, so why do the police harass and arrest them?
The cops can’t win for losing here. If they arrest criminals, they are racists. If they don’t arrest criminals, they are racists.
The rape epidemic in black communities can’t be blamed on over-zealous police or a racist penal system or on poverty. We black men commit disproportionally high levels of rape. Rape has nothing to do with the drug trade, yet we commit lots of it. My point is that black crime is a black problem. It can’t be blamed on any other group. This is why I bring up rape. It is a crime that black men commit in large numbers, the cause of which can’t be blamed on whites.
You wrote:
Where to begin?
Begin at the beginning. Try to answer the question of why black men commit more rape than other groups of men.
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Abagond wrote:
“I would love to be your gardener. It would be such easy money! Because any time you complained about the weeds, I would just say, “I am not the source of those weeds. I did not make them grow. They just got there somehow.” Shrug, shrug.”
I like this analogy. Let’s run with it. If you were my gardener and I complained to you about the weeds in my garden, you could present me with the following options:
1) Pull the weeds by hand. This would be laborious (and thus expensive) but the garden would thrive.
2) Use weed killer, which would eliminate the weeds (for a time) but might harm other plants in the garden and would be environmentally hazardous.
3) Live with an unsightly unproductive garden.
Option 1 is analogous to police arresting criminals.
Option 2 is analogous to state sponsored segregation. All blacks, rich or poor, intelligent or less intelligent, married or not, would all live together, thus forcing blacks to impose limits on criminal behavior.
Option 3 would be analogous to the case of benign neglect. White America could probably get away with implementing option 3 on a wide-scale basis, but it would not be pretty. It would lead ultimately to option 2.
You don’t seem to be thinking seriously about crime Abagond. You seem too eager to blame the problems of blacks on whites.
And there is the nettlesome question of why some gardens have less of a weed problem than other gardens to begin with.
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RR:
Get a grip. Raping people has nothing to do with being black. Here are the top countries by rapes per thousand people:
1.20 South Africa
0.79 Seychelles
0.78 Australia
0.75 Montserrat
0.73 Canada
0.48 Jamaica
0.46 Zimbabwe
0.35 Dominica
0.30 USA
0.25 Iceland
0.23 Papau New Guinea
0.21 New Zealand
0.14 Britain
0.14 Spain
0.14 France
0.13 South Korea
…
33 countires later:
0.03 Zambia
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RR said:
“You don’t seem to be thinking seriously about crime Abagond. You seem too eager to blame the problems of blacks on whites.”
The whole point of my gardener analogy is that YOU are letting whites off the hook way too easily. Instead you blame blacks.
With power goes RESPONSIBILITY. Am I the first one to tell you this? This is what you are not getting and what I tried to show you with your garden, your children and your dog.
Whites hold most of the power in America. And just like Obama they must exercise that power for the good of ALL Americans not just for the good of their own race.
“Option 2 is analogous to state sponsored segregation. All blacks, rich or poor, intelligent or less intelligent, married or not, would all live together, thus forcing blacks to impose limits on criminal behavior.”
When white people “impose limits on criminal behavior” it is called “the police”.
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Abagond,
How about we limit our discussion to crime with respect to blacks in America, since this was the topic we were discussing.
But since you mentioned it, the list nonetheless has a racial aspect. The top 9 countries have significant non-white populations. The US would drop out of the top 10 if the number of rapes by blacks were removed from the US totals. Currently, black men are convicted of about half of all rapes in the US. Excluding blacks would reduce the US rape per thousand by half, putting the US just ahead of Britain and France (who, of course, have significant non-white populations that contribute to their rape/capita numbers). The white US rape stats are also inflated by the fact that Hispanic criminals are often counted as white by the federal government with respect to crime stats. Taking this into account, the US would probably drop out of the top 20.
What I found curious about the list (interested parties can find the list in its entirety here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita), is that it only included two mainland sub-Saharan African countries. It omitted rape hotspots like The Democratic Republic of Congo (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/world/africa/07congo.html?_r=1). Why aren’t the statistics for all countries published? Are we to believe that countries like Rwanda and Burundi have no rapes? It is more likely that rape stats are just harder to come by outside the nations of the West.
I am not letting whites off the hook, but we can’t blame whites for things their supposed bigotry has nothing to do with. Whites are not omnipotent and black are not weak children.
You wrote:
“When white people “impose limits on criminal behavior” it is called “the police”.
Partly, but most of it is also called “Good parenting” ,which gets us back to the topic at hand.
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abagond, you wrote:
33 countires later: 0.03 Zambia
Zambia? You must be joking?
The median age in Zambia is 17. The birth rate is staggering. But the infant death rate is doubling staggering.
Meanwhile, life expectancy is 39. The population of 12 million is perishing due to AIDS.
No rape?
Based on these numbers, it appears Zambia is the sex capital of the world. Not only that, but given the median age of the population, it seems the entire country is engaged in sex that in most nations would qualify as statutory rape.
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RR said:
“Try to answer the question of why black men commit more rape than other groups of men.”
Then I gave a list of countries with the highest rates of rape, many of them white, some of them with almost no black people at all – like Iceland, Australia and South Korea.
Then RR said:
“How about we limit our discussion to crime with respect to blacks in America, since this was the topic we were discussing.”
Sorry, but you are the one who wanted to compare blacks in regard to “other groups of men “. And both you and No Slappz like to drag in Africa and the West Indies to “prove” the true nature of blacks.
If black men are more naturally given to rape than “other groups of men”, then a country like Jamaica should blow away Canada and Australia. Hands down. Zimbabwe, from the way No Slappz talks about it, should be way ahead of those “stable” white countries too.
So if you are going to bring up something, do make out like I am the one derailing.
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Abagond,
You are dodging the question. We began with the question of black crime here in America. If you don’t want to deal with the American crime question, fine. But you did bring it up. If we are going to talk about crime, let’s talk about crime in the US. We don’t really know how crime statistics are collected in non-Western countries (assuming they are collected at all), so let’s not bring them into the picture. We could talk about crime in Canada and Australia, being that they both have large immigrant populations (large numbers of Jamaicans in Canada) if you insist, but I like the US.
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I am not dodging any question. YOU brought up rape almost out of the blue and made it THE issue. And the strange thing is, that is so common on this blog that back in October I listed it as White Racist Argument #14:
“14. Start quoting rape statistics – out of the blue, if necessary. Rates of imprisonment are good too.”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/how-to-argue-like-a-white-racist/
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Wow, blaming rape on Jamaican Canadians. You do not give up, do you? If Jamaicans were at fault, then why is rape 52% HIGHER in Canada than back in Jamaica?
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RR said:
“We don’t really know how crime statistics are collected in non-Western countries (assuming they are collected at all), so let’s not bring them into the picture.”
I wish you had such a healthy level of doubt when it came to IQ scores in other countries.
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Abagond,
You leveled an unsubstantiated claim about the police being the cause of crime in black neighborhoods. I vigorously questioned that claim. I used rape because it is unrelated to drugs and police racism can’t be used as an excuse as to why black men are incarcerated at such a higher rate than other groups of men for that particular crime. Now you seem to be saying that it is racist in itself to even mentioned the racial disparity in rape convictions. You have to be consistent here. Either we are going to talk about crime or we are not going to talk about crime. Again, YOU brought the issue of black crime up! You can’t have your cake and eat it too! You can’t contrive just-so crime stats regarding drugs and then forget about other criimes that blacks commit disproportionally.
We don’t know about how crime stats are collected in Jamaica. We know more about crime stats in Canada, although that has changed drastically, being that Canada has hate speech laws and it is illegal to even note the differences in crime rates between ethnic/racial groups.
We know a lot about IQ testing in the West. We know under what conditions the tests are administered and we know that reporting is fairly consistent. Testing in sub-Saharan Africa is probably not as accurate. This is partly why I yielded this point to tulio when he questioned the accuracy of the black African IQ average of 70.
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RR:
I am working on a post about black rape statistics…
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Abagond,
That’s great. You are being very open minded about this. I like that.
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RR sez:
The point being you don’t know what you are talking about! You said you read the book in the 1980s (even though the book was published in 1994),…
I see that I did say 1980s. RR, let me tell you a simple fact of my life…
Most of my writing is done late night in the professors’ dorm on a card table in the light of one flourescent bulb on a eee netbook with a 10 inch keyboard. And I happen to have big hands.
Now I don’t know about your keyboard, but on mine, the “8” and the “9” are right next door to each other. Errors like this occur.
This in conjuction with the other inconsistencies you have made reagarding the book and the fact that you seem to have no original thoughts regarding the book’s themes leads me to believe that you have never read the book.
What “inconsistencies” are these, RR? 😀 Sh1t, you were the guy who claimed that the APA supports the books thesis that IQ is racially based when the APA goes out of its way to say that this hypothesis is unsupported! 😀
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Thaddeus,
We are writing in circles. At the moment, only one of us has a firm grasp of what is in the book, and it ain’t you. Read or re-read the book. Digest the book. When Abagond reviews the book, we can rap.
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RR, the feeling is mutual. I do not think you’ve read the book at all. You CERTAINLY haven’t read its critics. And, as per usual, you argue in bad faith.
Once again, the book’s main thesis – at least with regards to the argument at hand – has been thoroughly debunked.
Twist and turn as much as you like. Hem and haw all day long, RR.
It still doesn’t change the fact that The Bell Curve DOES NOT present any credible evidence that I.Q. is racially, biologically linked. No reputable group which has read and reviewed the book believes that. Even the American Psychological Association, which you yourself have held up as “supporting” the book’s thesis, has debunked it.
We aren’t talking in circles, RR. As per usual, you are talking out of your a$$hole. You haven’t a logical leg to stand on and you’re desperately trying to cover that fact by bobbing and weaving like a drunkne clown in the bull pen at the county fair.
Nuff said.
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RR:
The post on black rape statistics:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/04/03/black-rape-statistics/
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on Sat 20 Mar 2010 at 13:21:17 abagond
Bay Area Guy said:
“It’s foolish to apply recent constructions of racial identity to ancient civilizations and empires, especially when those people today are not part of your race.”
Like it or not history is used in America to excuse racism: slavery is natural and universal, white people invented all the important stuff, what has Africa ever done, etc.
If Egypt was part black African it matters hugely because in America you are told in so many words that if you are part black African there is something wrong with you. Blacks are seen as savages, as monkeys, as not having much of a brain. So, yes, it matters if the people who created civilization were also part black African.
—————-
It matters enough to make it up?
Egyptians of today are the same as the Ancient Egyptians.
Sure further you go south you will find black people but it doesn not make it a Black civilization..African yes…Black NO
I believe it was Narmer who pushed south to the Nubians land and made them apart of his empire. The Egyptians actually barred Nubian “troglodytes” from entering their land without proper purpose.
Here is proof!!!!!
The first Semneh stela inscription recounting the subjugation of Nubia by Sesostris III reads as follows:
-“Southern boundary, made in the year 8, under the majesty of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, Sesostris III,… in order to prevent that any Black should cross it, by water or by land, with a ship, or any herds of the Blacks; except a Black who shall come to do trading in Iken, or with a commission. Every good thing shall be done with them but without allowing a ship of the Blacks to pass by Heh, going down stream, forever.”
————————
Why are most AA gullible? I mean Youtube dominates their educational spectrum lol
Stop the madness!!
The sooner AA realize that the “Man” is not holding them back nor trying to cover up history of blacks the better they will be…
Bottom Line…
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Oh goodness, I can’t believe I actually read through all these comments.
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I’ve not read all the comments, just your argument, it’s basically silly.
Just because somone doesn’t like something doesn’t mean it’s not true.
IQ = ability to solve problems and understand things. Not ability to be effective at work or inventing etc. I’ll dumb it down: being the fastest runner doesn’t mean you’ll run the fastest every day.
Of course different cultures and races have different strengths and weaknesses, just look at things which are fairly objectivly measured, like sports: Some sports are dominated by certain groups even after accounting for peer/popularity motivations. Would you say the 100m orginizers are racist?
It’s unlikely all races are identically inteligent just like some races are shorter, which implies one race to be the tallest race and one the most inteligent.
Again, just because people don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s not true.
I have a question, which do you think you’d choose:
act towards all people in the same way, one set of rules for all or
treat people as if they are identical?
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@ Brent
Let me dumb it down for you: It seemed silly because you missed the point.
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[…] equality by Julian Abagond. […]
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