The black brute stereotype (1870s – ) is one of the pictures white Americans have in their heads about black men: as savage, violent, amazingly strong and not caring about right and wrong. Black men rape and kill for no reason. They cannot control themselves. Whites do not believe that every black man is like that, but they think plenty of them are.
Willie Horton, Emmett Till and Rodney King were all seen in this light. It is why Susan Smith could blame a black man for killing her children and be believed: because black men are like that: they kill for no reason, even children!
It is why whites are afraid to walk alone in black neighbourhoods: some black man might jump out of nowhere and rape or kill them. They especially like to rape and kill complete strangers at night. It is why whites cross the street to the other side – just to be safe! As if savage killers cannot cross the street too!
When a white man kills someone, white people ask, “Why did he do it?” But when a black man kills someone they do not ask why. They already know: because he is black.
As stereotypes go, this one is pretty new: it did not arise till the 1870s, after the black slaves were freed. As slaves they were seen as simple and childlike. Once freed, they were seen as being wild and out of control.
So if blacks were not kept in line by terror and lynchings, black men would freely rape white women. What, after all, would stop them? This became the stated excuse for Jim Crow – to protect pure white women against savage black men. When Congress tried to pass a law against lynching, white Southerners blocked it in the Senate for just this reason.
As it turns out, of all the blacks who were lynched only about one in seven was guilty of raping a white woman. In the case of Emmett Till all he did was call a white woman “Baby”. That was enough for her husband and her brother to kill him, a 14-year-old boy – and get away with it.
The true brutes in Jim Crow times were white men. They raped far more women, black and white – and, in the case of black women, got away with it. They were the ones who carried out the lynchings – which were far more savage and frequent than anything blacks had the power to do.
And even today blacks are three times more likely to be physically threatened, harmed or killed because of their race than are whites. So this idea of whites as peaceful and blacks as threatening to whites is not rooted in fact. It is rooted in something else.
Yes, there are black men who are violent and savage, who do unspeakable things. But there are white men like that too. In either case, they are hardly common enough to reasonably determine one’s ideas about the ordinary people of either race.
See also:
Abagond 
Once again Abagond you touch upon a topic that reverberates throughout the black community. The media is an effective tool that has fueled the stereotype of brutish black men, so much too the point that even (yes even) some black people are beginning to fall victim to this belief. I am married to a black man, a man that was raised in the hood, and saw it all growing up. He is not the violent product of, but the product despite his situation. He is the most gentle, kind, slow to angry person that I have every encountered and it is frustrating that people (white people) will still give him a wide berth when we approach. It’s sad and disgusting that those individuals are so very blind to their own indoctrinations.
Formerly known as musiq
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Excellent post Abagond.
What is sad or ironic about black men being lynched for raping or sleeping with white women is the fact that there are now so many interacial marriages and relationships between BM&WW.
I noticed the way that whites would cross the street when they came across black men when I was a teenager. In Montreal I saw something different. The white people in Montreal did not act as if every black male on the street was going to rob them.
Abagond, I saw a special on the History channel about how cocaine was outlawed because it was believed that it turned black men into brutes.
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BeautyinBaltimore
I saw that same exact special! My husband and I watched it together and could only shake our heads in wonderment. To this very day wm are the predominate users and abusers of cocaine.
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Compared to much older stereotypes of Black women by whites, the black male stereotypes are relatively new and gets far more press attention than any others. Maybe because we live in a male-dominated society or is it something else.
Steph
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I think it is the strongest of the stereotypes and by far the most damaging, not just in Jim Crow times, but even now.
It is the strongest because it is based on fear.
Deep down whites know that if a black man bashed in their brains it would not be completely undeserved. Even in their blindness, they know the history of this country, they know it was built on a crime and they know that crime has never been made right. Even Pat Buchanan has to know that. All the whitewash in the history books cannot cover over the ugly fact.
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I’m a whitey cracker offay honkee, Abagond Noname. If a Negro bashed my brains in I wouldn’t think I deserved it. Just for the record. I’m pretty sure I speak for all my white associates. Ite.
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I did not say they would think they deserved it but that they would not think it was completely undeserved. A much weaker statement.
Maybe whites are even more profoundly blind to race than I think, but what I am saying is that much of the fear they have of black men comes from their knowing, somewhere in the back of their minds, that America has been built on crimes against black people.
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I think the facts on todays race crimes are inacurate. In fact I believe more whites are attacked because of race or otherwise by blacks then the opposite. now alot of these may be general muggings and robbings and not have to do with a hatred for the white victims , but would you rather rob an old weak white person or mike tyson? so it is racially motivated crime to a point. the fact is these things probably went on post civil war as well. now it should have been handled better than jim crow laws. but what do you think hungry freed slaves did to survive? they probably robbed as they do today. in fact they say alot of the cowboys from the old west were in fact black have you ever seen that movie posse. now lynching and hangings shouldn’t have been done but black people today need to stop attacking white people as well.
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Most crimes done by blacks are against other blacks.
This idea that most black men just wait for their chance to kill and rob white people, that they have no morals and that only fear of the law (or lynchings in the old days) is what keeps them in line, is all part of this stereotype.
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It is why whites are afraid to walk alone in black neighbourhoods: some black man might jump out of nowhere and rape or kill them.
Yeah, what a wildly implausible scenario.
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Silly whites, believing their lying racist eyes.
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“To this very day wm are the predominate users and abusers of cocaine.”
Black people are the predominate users of crack cocaine and white people of the powder kind. That is why the punishment for crack is much more draconian for that of cocaine.
“but would you rather rob an old weak white person or mike tyson”
The question should be: would you rather rob an old weak white person or an old weak black person. That is the point of the stereotype: not all black men are brutes.
The truth is, that a white man walking in a black neighborhood is probably the SAFEST person there. And the one most likely to be stopped and questioned by the police. What is he doing there? Buying or selling drugs, missionary work, social worker, visiting a black girlfriend (okay, that might get him jumped), etc.
The person most likely to be killed or raped or robbed in America is a black person. That’s why there is such a shortage of black men: they’re killing each other. White people are pretty safe, except from their own white acquaintances.
“They especially like to rape and kill complete strangers at night. It is why whites cross the street to the other side – just to be safe! As if savage killers cannot cross the street too!”
ROFL! I always wondered why people do that. It’s so pointless.
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Besides, why bother crossing the street? If they really wanted to kill you, they’d just shoot you. I’m sure they can get you from the other side of the street.
And most violent crimes (except rape) are actually committed in broad daylight.
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come on abagond, you said in your “article” that whites are still victimizing blacks more than vise versa which is untrue. no one ever said that white people are getting beat up by every black person they walk past. but when it comes to interracial crime more blacks commit it -bottom line. especially the crime against old people and women. that is just dispicable. You even said if a person got thier head bashed -in in comment #5 above me -they would feel like they deserved it somehow. you are a sick individual.
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“The truth is, that a white man walking in a black neighborhood is probably the SAFEST person there.”
That’s just about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2009/04/14/news/doc49e3cff8d6d54928171033.txt
This is just one example, but I have seen dozens. Note especially the irony:
‘One person yelled, “This is our neighborhood, white boy”’
‘Police do not know why the group surrounded the car or fought with the three roommates’
Statistics show that there is vastly more black-on-white violent crime than white-on-black. If you don’t think that a white person in an all-black neighborhood is a target, then you’re ignorant of the reality of the situation. Of course I can’t blame you, since the media seriously downplays black-on-white crime.
Do you know that recently, a group of four black men severely beat a white man in an attempted robbery ON A PUBLIC BUS in France, the entire incident was captured on video, and the French government forced all French internet providers to take the video off of their sites?
I’m not suggesting that blacks are inherently violent or criminal, but it is a fact that black violent crime is a serious problem in urban areas in America and Europe, and much of it is directed at whites. No politically correct media source will admit it, nor will they admit that many of the crimes are probably racially motivated. But when I see a statement like the one you made, I feel the need to correct this widespread ignorance.
Let a white man go into an all-black urban neighborhood thinking that he is the safest guy there, and he will learn the hard way that he isn’t. I’d rather we educate to prevent these kinds of incidents than deny the truth to avoid trampling on the delicate sensibilities of the PC crowd.
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According to US Department of Justice document Criminal Victimization in the United States, 2005 (the pdf is online), there were 111,590 white victims and 36,620 black victims of rape or sexual assault in the US in 2005. In the 111,590 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was white, 44.5 percent of the offenders were white, and 33.6 percent of the offenders were black. In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white. (The table explains that 0.0 percent means that there were under 10 incidents nationally.)
Quite a disparity, isn’t it. Even before taking into account the fact that blacks are ~12% of the US population, while whites are ~66%.
And keep in mind that the US government isn’t exactly in the business of inflaming racial tensions by baseless stereotyping. On the contrary, they try to conceal the inconveneient truths. That’s why, for example, there aren’t separate statistics for Hispanics, but they’re merged with whites instead — in order both to inflate white crime numbers and to cover up high Hispanic criminality.
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“Statistics show that there is vastly more black-on-white violent crime than white-on-black.”
The rates are 17.2% and 10.4%, respectively. Considering that whites are a much larger portion of the population (75% versus 12.3%), that is actually surprisingly low.
“In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white… Quite a disparity, isn’t it.”
Here we go with the rape statistics. You found those here, right?
Click to access cvus05.pdf
I know those statistics. They are accurate. It doesn’t mean that it proves your point. Let’s parse the statistics in that file.
Yes, it is quite a disparity. Don’t you wonder about that? Do you really think that 36,620 black women were raped in America and less than 10 of those cases were attributed to a white assailant? Do you really think that? Really?
Did you know that there are 117,000 black woman/white man married couples in 2006? Did you know that those rape statistics include spousal rape? Do you not think that “less than 10” of 117,000 women reporting spousal rape would be a suspiciously low number?
Remember: those statistics are based on REPORTED rapes, not on actual crimes. Rape is under-reported (54.8% aren’t reported to the police) and rape of black women is grossly under-reported (only 17.1% reported).
And did you know that a white woman is more likely to report a rape if it is committed by a black man? There’s a simple reason for that: most rape is acquaintance rape (friends, family, dates, coworkers, etc.). Most white womens’ acquaintances are also white. Therefore, when a white woman is raped by a black man that man is overwhelmingly a stranger. Rape by a stranger has a very high incidence of reporting (for white women, 42.7% of reported rapes were by strangers, even though 85% of rapes committed are by acquaintances).
Contrast that with the reporting of only 5.8% of rapes of black women by strangers. Do you really think that white women are over 7 times more likely to be raped by a stranger than black women are? Really? Or could it be because black women are less likely to report a rape, regardless of the assailant?
Here’s another interesting calculation:
There were 111,490 white women raped out of an estimated population of 118,927,477 That means that 9.37% of white women reported being raped.
For black women (36,620/37,909,341) the rate is 9.66%.
In other words, even though black women are a much smaller portion of the population (and therefore less likely to be found in any given location) they are more likely to be raped.
This doesn’t even take into account that many of the white victims are Hispanic.
And here’s another statistic:
For every white woman that reports her rape, at least 5 white women do not report theirs; and yet, for every African-American woman that reports her rape, at least 15 African-American women do not report theirs (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report. Hart and Rennison. 2003. U.S. Department of Justice).
The simple truth is: black women don’t report rape. And if they do report it, it’s less likely to be prosecuted. And if it’s prosecuted, the case is less likely to result in a sentence of guilty. And if the assailant is found guilty the punishment is much lower than if the victim is white.
It’s open season on black women, folks…
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Here’s a prime example of what happens to a black girl that reports being raped by a white man (or in this case, white men).
Remember Megan Williams, the black woman who had this done to her:
http://whyblackwomenareangry.blogspot.com/2007/10/black-west-virginia-rape-victim-was.html
They plea bargain their way out of it. Then she gets charged with writing a $32 hot check to Dominoes. I kid you not.
http://www.dailymail.com/News/200802280238?page=1&build=cache
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Remember: those statistics are based on REPORTED rapes
No, those statistics are based upon an annual DOJ crime victimization survey which I would agree has quite a few issues. It has been used and misused by many people including White Supremacists and Tim Wise. (obviously they are not in agreement..) In my opinion It should only be used as a very rough guideline for crime in the US.
What’s clear from the survey at least is that most rape is intraracial so when you say “It’s open season on black women, folks…” statistically speaking black men are very likely to be the perpetrators in regards to rape. Likewise if you were say “it’s open season on white women..” it’s more common for the assailant to be a white.
They plea bargain their way out of it.
No they didn’t “get out of it” they were sentenced to prison, although I would agree the sentences were too light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megan_Williams_case
In February 2008, Alisha Burton and George Messer both plead guilty to assault and kidnapping and were sentenced to 10 years each.
On March 13, 2008, Karen Burton, one of the women involved in the attack, was given one 10-year sentence for violation of civil rights and two 2-10 year sentences for assault. She was the only person involved that was charged with a hate crime. Frankie Brewster received 10-25 years for second-degree sexual assault. They had both pled guilty in exchange for reduced sentences. Carmen Williams, Megan’s mother, expressed frustration that they had not received life sentences, which is the maximum penalty for kidnapping.
Bobby Brewster plead guilty to second-degree sexual assault, conspiracy to commit kidnapping and malicious assault. He was sentenced for 13 to 40 years in prison in July 2008. Danny Combs will stand 20 years for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. He plead guilty to sexual assault, assault during the commission of a felony, and conspiracy to commit kidnapping or holding hostage in September 2008.
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why are you defending these criminals because they share your skin. it is rediculous WE ARE ALL HUMAN. I can’t hold you accountable because some blacks kill some whites unless you’re doing it. just like you can’t hold me accountable for the few whites who were slave masters, traders, etc. because I share the skin of the few oppressors. now if I told you that more whites were killed by blacks since the start of the iraq war than by all iraqis and afgans since 2001 should I be like abagond and say “well if a white man bashed in the head of a black man the black man should feel in the back of his mind that it is somehow justified” because of the violent crimes committed by blacks? you have to know that these views are poisonous. look it really shouldn’t matter but I’ll prove my point this way. I am half irish and half italian. all of my ancestors came through ellis island anywhere from 1880 and 1945 depending on which side of my family. so by abagonds way of thinking me being white I am comdemed by the black militants anyway even though I have no genelogical ties to any slave master. you guys have to see though this poison. he is bringing up old news to stir up new racist thinking against white people. YOU DONT KNOW ALL WHITE PEOPLE so you can’t make the generalizations that abagond does. most black people problably have more of the actual slave masters in thier family trees than most white people . we all need to stop this it breeds hate and thats why all these white people are getting attacked.
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The only time it is right to bash in someone’s head is to save your own life or those of the people you are protecting. No one “deserves” it. No ancient crime can make it the right thing to do, not even slightly.
On the other hand white people in America have an OVERBLOWN fear of black men and, yes, even of poor black neighbourhoods. It is not based on a close reading of the numbers on crime, not mainly. It is based on racist fears and, yes, even racist guilt in a backwards kind of way (the point I tried to make about “not completely undeserved”).
Your family may have come to America long after the slaves were freed, but in the process of becoming a white American you picked up the white feelings about black people and some of those feelings do go back to slave days.
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you just proved my point with those foolish old tired remarks that I have heard a million times. YOU DON’T KNOW ME so there is no way that you could ever know about my views just from the color of my skin and you’re still doing it . you don’t know my mom or dad and the same views that are pressed on me in america are also pressed on you from the media. in fact in recent times hatred of white people are more accepted in my opinion because of the fear of white executives getting sued by civil rights attorneys none of whom see dollar bills in thier eyes if the victim is white. it is only when the victim is black that they feel like they won the fucking lottery. in fact I blame these white greedy lawyers and the greedy white media who care nothing for the poor white people in this country then black people. but your views are helping to build a hatred for white skin that i believe is like a raging forest fire in this country. are there white racists? sure but I believe there are systems in place like the NAACP and other groups to combat against that.
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I do not blame present-day white people for the slave trade and all that. When I do bring it up it is to explain how white people are now. White people did not fall from the sky: they come from a particular history that has shaped them. Some of what they do only starts to make sense once you look at that history. This stereotype is a good example of that.
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Dave: I do not know you. When I talk about “white people” I mean in general, not every single one. They are not a race of robots or brainwashed zombies. Each one is different and yet there are some things most have in common.
I may watch the same television but I will bring my own experiences and point of view to it.
The “sytems in place” are decidedly wanting.
I am not trying to build a hatred for white people. I am trying to understand them.
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I see what you are saying and I apologize if it seems I am coming on a little strong. but this is something I feel very strongly about I think when you say the history has shaped them. who is them- do you mean my Italian grandfather who came to this country when he was eight years old and his dad died while they were on the trip. and he had to get a job at twelve years old to help support the family and worked his fingers to the bone until he was 75 laying bricks. or my irish grandfather who had no hip and walked with a cane who died before I was born so I didn’t know him. but he worked as a machinist in a factory 12 hours a day. I know these people didn’t fall out of the sky and they shaped my personal history. you need to stop generalizing all whites who you know nothing about.
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white people in America have an OVERBLOWN fear of black men and, yes, even of poor black neighborhoods. It is not based on a close reading of the numbers on crime, not mainly.
Abagond I have lived in predominantly black neighborhoods and I have to say based upon my experiences and that and other whites I knew who lived in those neighborhoods.. there is justified fear. It’s not of the 63 year old plumber who used to live next door to me nor of the guy who ran across the street to help me stop a paint scaffolding from falling down, nor the older women I used to see returning from church.. no those were all good people who were also black. It’s from the times I heard things like “Get the fuck out of my neighborhood white motherfucker” or when I had people scream at me when they driving down the street or on occasion when people would throw their trash at me or when I was struck in the face with a block of wood that left a permanent scar. I have other stories I could tell you about or that of friends or acquaintances… There are, of course, bad white people, but when I have lived in black neighborhoods I felt sometimes like there was a target on my back. FWIW murder statistics (and these aren’t from surveys..) indicate blacks commit at a rate 7 times higher than whites. This falls heavily upon other black people but do you think it’s possible that other forms of violent crime might also be higher as well..?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm
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Uncle Milton, try being a black person in a majority white neighborhood (or country, for that matter). I spent 5 years in Texas. The fear is justified.
“those statistics are based upon an annual DOJ crime victimization survey which I would agree has quite a few issues.”
I stand corrected.
“What’s clear from the survey at least is that most rape is intraracial so when you say “It’s open season on black women, folks…” statistically speaking black men are very likely to be the perpetrators in regards to rape.”
The open season was referring to ALL men, black, white, and other. BTW, according to numerous other surveys, the “open season” refers even more to mixed-race, Asian, and Native American women. Rape of white women is the most reported (to police and by the media) and prosecuted of all.
“No they didn’t “get out of it” they were sentenced to prison, although I would agree the sentences were too light.”
Too light? That is the understatement of the century. The maximum sentence for 1st-degree sexual assault in WV is 25 to life. Not a single one of them got that. And they can be paroled.
And why in the world were they plea-bargaining when the case was so watertight? I mean, she was discovered by the police, she was nearly beaten to a pulp, and she had to have major surgery to repair her bits, she’d been abused to badly. And they plea-bargained?! If the accused had been black they would have re-instated the death-penalty, extra-special.
Some black commentators have accused the public prosecutor of plea-bargaining because he’s racist but I think the truth might be more troubling: he’s pragmatic. He doesn’t think they’ll get a tougher sentences if he goes to court so why waste taxpayer’s money?
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And the fact that the prosecutor charged her with bouncing a check WHILE SHE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL awaiting surgery is unspeakably cruel. And a statement in itself.
My point about the rape statistics is that I’m tired of hearing about “poor white women” that everybody’s raping: they live in fear, they carry pepper spray in their purses, they cross the street when a black man approaches them, etc. It’s minority women who are the most likely to be raped, not white women. The difference is that nobody CARES.
“The “sytems in place” are decidedly wanting.”
Okay. Now THAT is the understatement of the century.
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“Uncle Milton, try being a black person in a majority white neighborhood (or country, for that matter). I spent 5 years in Texas. The fear is justified.”
The fear of what? Not getting invited to a party?
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“I am not trying to build a hatred for white people. I am trying to understand them.”
Then you should probably do more asking and less telling.
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“In other words, even though black women are a much smaller portion of the population (and therefore less likely to be found in any given location) they are more likely to be raped.
This doesn’t even take into account that many of the white victims are Hispanic.”
Yes, and many of the “white” perpetrators are Hispanic too. Given the rate of poverty among Hispanic “whites” and the correlation of poverty with both criminality and victimization, it seems plausible that a disproportionate amount of both the “white” victims and perpetrators are Hispanic.
You also ignore the fact that while black women are much more likely to be victims of rape, statistics show that “white” men are not the ones committing these crimes.
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abagond Says:
“When I talk about ‘white people’ I mean in general, not every single one. They are not a race of robots or brainwashed zombies. Each one is different and yet there are some things most have in common.”
I think it is a very bad habit. From childhood, it was instilled in me not to make generalizations. It annoys me every time I hear someone speak in monolithic terms.
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“it seems plausible that a disproportionate amount of both the “white” victims and perpetrators are Hispanic.”
Which would mean that the percentage of white women who are raped is even more inflated.
“You also ignore the fact that while black women are much more likely to be victims of rape, statistics show that “white” men are not the ones committing these crimes.”
I don’t ignore that fact. My beef was with the “In the 36,620 cases in which the victim of rape or sexual assault was black, 100 percent of the offenders were black, and 0.0 percent of the offenders were white.” statement. It’s obviously false. The % of WW raped by BM is inflated and the % of BW raped by WM is under-reported. That doesn’t change the fact that most rape/crime is intra-racial but it does effect the debate about interracial crime.
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Is it under-reported by 37,000?
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fear of black people, well im not going to lie, i live in Sweden ( quite peacefull country compared to USA ), but if id meet a gang of black males at night id feel more uncomfortable than if i met a gang of whites.
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To Black&German:
They plea bargain their way out of it. Then she gets charged with writing a $32 hot check to Dominoes. I kid you not.
http://www.dailymail.com/News/200802280238?page=1&build=cache
There’s no reference to a check to Dominoes in the link above. I can tell you that in several states arresting someone for a bounced check does not require a prosecutor. I did find an article on a blog that referenced it and said the charge had been dropped.
Uncle Milton, try being a black person in a majority white neighborhood (or country, for that matter). I spent 5 years in Texas. The fear is justified.
You have my deepest sympathies if you were harassed and/or assaulted in Texas as I was when I lived in Oakland. My point to Abagond was that for a white person to have fear while being in a black neighborhood was not irrational.
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My point about the rape statistics is that I’m tired of hearing about..
You mean you only hear about white women being assaulted and not black women being assaulted..? I have seen multiple articles on the matter…that rape is more common for black women.. and the perpetrators are almost all black men. As we both agree most rape is intraracial. How should this information be brought to the public’s attention..?
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Too light? That is the understatement of the century.
How would you have liked me to phrase it..? I would also say the sentence for Dan White.. the man who murdered a mayor (Moscone) and council member (Harvey Milk) of San Francisco was too light. (He received 7 years..)
Frankie Lee Brewster served 5 years previously (another plea bargain) for murdering an 84 year old woman:
Mrs. Brewster, convicted of voluntary manslaughter, served five years in the fatal 1994 shooting of an 84-year-old woman who the police now say was her mother-in-law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/us/13captive.html
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Abagond:
Deep down whites know that if a black man bashed in their brains it would not be completely undeserved.
That’s a stunning statement from you Abagond….so would this give me the right to objectify 20 plus million Americans because and bash in a random black man’s head because a small portion of people who shared the same phenotype were vicious and on a few occasions assaulted me..? I mean in your words it would appear not completely undeserved.
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To Black & German:
Re: The inbreeds from West Virgina
“Mrs. Brewster, convicted of voluntary manslaughter, served five years in the fatal 1994 shooting of an 84-year-old woman who the police now say was her mother-in-law.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/us/13captive.html”
My point with this.. since I didn’t follow it up is that this prosecutor’s office seems to dole out plea bargains pretty easily.
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To Black&German:
Besides, why bother crossing the street? If they really wanted to kill you, they’d just shoot you. I’m sure they can get you from the other side of the street.
So.. I guess you’ve never been a victim of a mugging or attempted mugging then. The majority of muggers don’t use a gun…and a fairly common technique is for someone to knock you down as you pass them. IE not crossing the street makes this form of mugging possible. Crossing the street gives you time.. time to think how to respond and react. And by the yes.. I have crossed the street and had someone come after me.. but since I already had a lead on them and I was able to outrun them.
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Racerealist said:
“Uncle Milton, try being a black person in a majority white neighborhood (or country, for that matter). I spent 5 years in Texas. The fear is justified.”
The fear of what? Not getting invited to a party?
Wow. And you wonder why people get upset at the things you say.
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Uncle Milton:
Your comment about living in a black neighbourhood as a white person (#26) was excellent. Thank you!
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Racerealist said:
“I am not trying to build a hatred for white people. I am trying to understand them.”
Then you should probably do more asking and less telling.
I wish it was that easy, but most whites are pretty blind when it comes to their own racism. But writing about white people and then reading their comments about it has been an eye-opening education for me.
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Uncle Milton said:
Abagond:
“Deep down whites know that if a black man bashed in their brains it would not be completely undeserved.”
That’s a stunning statement from you Abagond….so would this give me the right to objectify 20 plus million Americans because and bash in a random black man’s head because a small portion of people who shared the same phenotype were vicious and on a few occasions assaulted me..? I mean in your words it would appear not completely undeserved.
See comment #21 where I said this:
The only time it is right to bash in someone’s head is to save your own life or those of the people you are protecting. No one “deserves” it. No ancient crime can make it the right thing to do, not even slightly.
The point of this post is not to excuse black crime (I am not – crime is crime) but to explain why whites have an overblown fear of black men, even given the crime numbers, as bad as they are.
The point I was trying to get across with my badly stated example of bashing in heads is that part of the fear is based on white guilt about living in an unjust society.
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i just want to say this i work with the most friendly black people that are some of the best people white or black that I have ever met. black people have thier bad apples but they also have great human beings all I am trying to prove here is so do white people.
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I look at it this way I live near philly and obviously i’m a phillies and an eagle fan. our biggest rival is the newyork mets and the newyork giants. now if the mets had a kind person on thier team I wouldn’t care I would concentrate on the mets I didn’t like. I think its the same way with white and black people they talk about the bad apples in both respective races and ignore the good.
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Deep down whites know that if a black man bashed in their brains it would not be completely undeserved.
I wonder if that’s what Eugenia Calle thought in her last moments. And for all I know, she might have.
Although a sheltered white liberal, she wasn’t an idiot — she was a prominent cancer epidemiologist. It should have been obvious to her that Shamal Thompson made a very improbable luxury condo buyer. And yet, she invited him to her apartment and refused help from the guard. “I don’t want him to think that we don’t trust him,” she said.
Better dead than racist. That is the racial cowardice that is killing us (whites) both physically and civilizationally.
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“You have my deepest sympathies if you were harassed and/or assaulted in Texas as I was when I lived in Oakland. My point to Abagond was that for a white person to have fear while being in a black neighborhood was not irrational.”
I’ve never personally been afraid of white people but then I don’t really look black so they tend not to notice me (although I’ve been sexually harassed for being a “senorita” and been told to “go back to Mexico”). My father and my cousin do and they were harassed on a regular basis. There was a KKK outpost near where we lived that would beat the crap out of a random Mexican or black guy every couple of months. Just so we wouldn’t forget about them, I guess. There was also this while we lived there (OMG, just saw that it’s happened AGAIN)
http://www.workers.org/2008/us/texas_1106/
I think it depends on the neighborhood. My parents (my mother’s white) live in an upper-class black neighborhood in Maryland. She’s very safe there. Now… South-East Washington DC is another story. But EVERYONE (black, white, brown, etc.) is unsafe there. Even the black people lock their doors when they drive through there.
“As we both agree most rape is intraracial. How should this information be brought to the public’s attention..?”
I have no idea. I don’t think they want to know about it.
“My point with this.. since I didn’t follow it up is that this prosecutor’s office seems to dole out plea bargains pretty easily.”
Perhaps it’s financial? Maybe they don’t have the money to prosecute the cases? Felony trials cost a small fortune.
“I have crossed the street and had someone come after me.. but since I already had a lead on them and I was able to outrun them.”
Okay, I didn’t consider muggings. I’ve never been the victim of any crime except interpersonal ones. Okay, those are still crimes but they just don’t seem as bad as something involving a stranger. But maybe that’s what’s wrong with black women?
“Better dead than racist.”
I’m sorry, but that seems to be very naive of her. I would never let a perfect stranger into my house when I’m home alone. I’m even afraid of plumbers and taxi drivers. But maybe life has made me cynical.
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I’m sorry, but that seems to be very naive of her. I would never let a perfect stranger into my house when I’m home alone.
Yes, exactly. You’re black, so you have no qualms about being wary of a suspicious-looking black person. My point is that neither should whites.
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Allow me to clarify what I think nonserviam meant – black people have no qualms about being wary of suspicious people, but certain brainwashed white liberals feel bad about being wary of suspicious people if those people are black.
Correct me if I’m wrong, nonserviam. I just didn’t want someone to take your comment the wrong way and start an unproductive accusatory tangent.
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Yes, that’s exactly what I meant. I wasn’t aware of any ambiguity in my comment, but thank you.
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My larger point is that white racial guilt over the injustices (real in the past, imaginary in the present day) done to blacks is the poisoned spiritual source of the Western civilizational suicide. Which means that, unless it is confronted and overcome, we are done for. That’s what makes the race realism, even though it’s descriptive rather than normative, so important.
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Ted Bundy rpaed and killed over 30 white women, some he confessed to and others he would not fess up.
But when that man was in court, instead of treatng him like the nasty monster he was, there were many white women falling in love with him and many people felt sorry for him!
Now if a black man attacks somebody it’s different!
Shows you how twisted and nasty the so-called “superior white race” really is.
They have told so many lies over and over again, no rational person would believe a word they have to say at all!
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But when that man was in court, instead of treatng him like the nasty monster he was, there were many white women falling in love with him and many people felt sorry for him!
Now if a black man attacks somebody it’s different!
Nope… there are many examples of women falling for black men in prison also. It’s a bizarre phenomenon and probably a reflection with America’s obsession with fame and crosses racial lines. In China they make you wear your a sign describing the crimes as you want to your place of execution. There is basically little description of the criminal’s himself but mostly of their deeds and victims. For capital crimes they put a bullet in the back of your head.. up until a few years ago they charged the criminals’ family for the cost of the execution.
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I remember the Sherrice Iverson murder.
That’s funny, David Duke and the other whites like to say that interracial rape where the white man is the perp NEVER happens.
The “superior white people” claim that black women are not raped by white men because black women are unrapeable.
If black women are “unrapeable” why did that nasty freak follow that little girl into a public restroom and strangle her over the toilet seat?
I’m sure many women get attacked all the time, but because the “superior white people” said that black women are unrapeable, no one believes them.
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http://www.freewebs.com/sherriceiverson/
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Um to the last few people who posted … are you the same person? Because you have an uncanny knack for stereotyping massive groups of people based on a few so-called “members” of said group.
What the hell do white serial killers have to do with anything? There’s obviously something wrong with these people and everyone knows it. Despite the depravity of their acts, their stories are so twisted they are hard to ignore. How do they reflect on whites as a whole? Not at all.
Seriously, I find race relations to be fascinating and I read a lot of forum boards to get a better perspective on how things are going … and (warning, I have to generalize a bit here) it seems to me that blacks often segregate themselves, and pin all the blame for their troubles on the ambiguous “evil white man”. By the way some people talk about such topics, so sure of their inaccurate views, it makes me think they have been brainwashed.
As for other things being discussed, I’m not particularly afraid of black men … but I’m a pretty big guy and through athletics (wrestling, football) I have come to understand they are no more dangerous than anyone else. However, there is such a thing as “mob mentality” that sort of takes over when you’re in a group of peers or even strangers bearing similarity to you.
It’s ignorant to fear blacks on sight, but careless to throw caution to the wind, especially when dealing with a group of people who are (obviously) probably going to dislike you the instant they see you.
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WE cannot change what is. Black people male and female have higher levels of testosterone, mature physically faster, reach puberty earlier, have smaller cranial capacity than whites or Asians. Black Africans in America have an average IQ of 85, Caucasians 101, Asians 106. African Americans represent 13% of the U.S population and commit 80% of the violent crime. Blacks throughout the world have more sex partners and fewer black males stay with their childrens mother.Testerone is equated to athletic ability and the rapid rise to rage. Africans south of the Sahara score 70 as an average in IQ tests which would qualify them as handicapped elsewhere in the world. Not all blacks are dull and violent. It is just an observation on the Bell curve. In U.S. Blacks are on average 30% Caucasian which explains the higher than African average IQ. Indeed the Black man is the White mans burden. Sending aid constantly to civil war torn and starving Africa and other unsuccessful nations. There has never been in past or id there in present a successful Black nation.
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Please state your sources.
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I’m not too sure, but I’m positive I’ve seen a similar post somewhere on this blog.
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Her sources are that racist schmuck who won the Nobel peace prize for helping discover the structure of DNA back in 1953: James D. Watson.
Since then, has had a severe case of nobelitis and thinks it’s his scientific duty to exagerate marginal findings and make ridiculous claims based on thin evidence in order to keep everyone guessing. He’s also a self-proclaimed eugenicist.
The concept that blacks have smaller cranial capacity, on average, than whites and that this has something to do with race (instead of, say, nutrition) comes from Morton, IIRC, and was thoroughly debunked back in the 1920s.
The “bell curve” hypothesis for the biological root of low black I.Q. scores has been dealt with on this site, ad nauseaum. It is based on tendacious data, poor sampling techniques and shifting definitions of “black” and “white”. Gould has dealt with this point quite conclusively in “The Mismeasure of Man”.
Raphael seems to believe that if lies and bad science are repeated often enough, loud enough, people will eventually believe them.
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That James Watson is hilarious. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth! Get a load of this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article3022190.ece
According to this article, he had his genes ‘donated’ to the genome project for posterity! Well wonders never cease! It came out that he has 16% African Ancestry, and 9% Asian ancestry. This from a man who made derogatory remarks about his own ancestors! Apparently this signifies that at least a great grandparent was black.
Hmm, lets see. According to good old Raphael, he derived his main source of intelligence from his European ancestry, his above average intelligence from his 9% Asian ancestry, and his ‘brutish’ behaviour from his black ancestry! Of course if you subscribe to the ‘one drop rule’, he is one smart black man.
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From what I have heard Watson’s IQ was not particularly high – maybe like 105 or 110. That is better than most, of course, but not what you would expect for such a famous scientist.
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LOL! You’re kidding!!!
Oh, that’s just too rich!
You know what this means, don’t you? The next time some little racist twerp says “Name one famous black scientist”, we can confidently say “Why James D. Watson, of course!”
😀 😀 😀 😀
I love it. This makes my day, Herneith. Thank you very much!
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From what I have heard Watson’s IQ was not particularly high – maybe like 105 or 110. That is better than most, of course, but not what you would expect for such a famous scientist.
Racist fu$#wads have been using Watson for years. I imagine that they’ll now switch course 180 degrees and say that his low IQ was due to his African ancestry…
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“From what I have heard Watson’s IQ was not particularly high – maybe like 105 or 110.”
Maybe his ‘Asian’ blood bumped him up a bit, LOL. Judging from some of his comments, he sure as hell doesn’t strike me as being being ‘politic’ in his public pronouncements whatever his ‘beliefs’, and that is what they are, based upon what other scientists and fellow Nobel Laureates have said in regards to his remarks. One comment from the article particularly stand out:
“This weekend his critics savoured the wry twist of fate. Sir John Sulston, the Nobel laureate who helped lead the consortium that decoded the human genome, said the discovery was ironic in view of Watson’s opinions on race. “I never did agree with Watson’s remarks,” he said. “We do not understand enough about intelligence to generalise about race.”
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No, they will say he wasn’t that smart anyway and it was sheer luck that he stumbled upon his discoveries.
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he abegond. If blacks beat a white man’s brains in, it is not deserved. You’re a hard gal. You would enjoy seeing a white guy brutalized would you> Is it a sexual thing?
Our perception of the negro are based on experience, on the crime stats. It’s damed unfortunate for the good black people out there. They must understand, our exprerinces in life make us react the way we do
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Alan
Our perception of the whites are based on experience and crime stats also. Remember a few things called slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, or apartheid. There has never been a time in American history that blacks have tried to subjugate an entire race based on physical features alone. I can’t begin to count the instances that this has been attempted by the white people. You just ask a black man who has met Bull Connor and his German Shepards how they feel about that comment.
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Race discussions always seem to ramble-on and on, but grind to a halt on the same old sticking points.
Sad, but interesting. Like a really bad auto accident.
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*sigh* Alas, I will have to ” generalize ” for the sake of this conversation. I hope no one will be deeply offended.
Whenever I read/listen to white people’s take on race and racism, it’s as if a majority of them exist in some sort of historical vacuum where everyone else on the planet ( whites are a minority worldwide…. ) is less intelligent, has no real historical accomplishments, or is widly uncivilized and brutish.
It seems an impossibility to assign the same declarations of savage-ness to, say, witch burnings, inquisitions, crusades, endless/countless wars ( barbarian and all others going forward ), and mass orchestration and execution of worldwide slavery.
It’s always ” everyone else’s fault ” and no one had anything to do with anything negative that has every happened. Period.
This is why, much to my sadness, there will NEVER be a discussion on race and racism that will ever be more than an exercise that will consistantly degrade into a pitiful morass of negativity and blame shedding.
White people want ” credit ” for scientific advances, certain societal structures, governing and politics, space travel…etc. etc, ( even nuclear weapons, which is surprising ) but want to poo-poo the equally numerous Shortcomings and atrocities by distancing themselves from them. This is amazing. ” I never had slaves…”. ” My grandfather came here and worked 90 hour days “…
People who’ve existed as ” Americans ” for 1 solid generations just absolving themselves of any of the acts, repercusions and responsibilities of the very same America.
That is a very neat trick indeed.
And it works. It works well because the majority is pretty much synced up to the same illusion.
United States of Disneyland.
And to anyone who is afraid of the ” ghettoes ” and ” certain black neighborhoods “, I invite you to take a tour of the nations many, many trailer parks.
All this blathering about IQ scores and skull circumfrence and Bell Curves is complete and utter nonsense. But it tilts the argument ( if you but into these premises ) in favor of whites.
…. I could easily make up a test that a majority of whites would do poorly on.
I’m just sayin’.
As a black man who stands 6 ft and weighs in at 239 pounds, I was interested in reading what commenters had to say.
I would hope that this conversation can keep going because there is much to learn, even if the same old tired examples and replies surface.
And I will leave all of my white breathren with the old, well worn quote : ” The only thing we have to fear is fear itself “.
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“It seems an impossibility to assign the same declarations of savage-ness to, say, witch burnings, inquisitions, crusades, endless/countless wars ( barbarian and all others going forward ), and mass orchestration and execution of worldwide slavery.”
To me, examples of the most savage behavior, in American history, were the mob lynchings. Those accounts are absolutely bone chilling:
Henry Smith Lynching [Wiki]
“He was placed upon a scaffold and tortured for fifty minutes by members of the girl’s family, who thrust hot iron brands into his flesh, starting with his feet and legs and working upward to his head. The family members involved included Myrtle’s father, uncles, and twelve-year-old brother. A February 2, 1893 article in The New York Sun stated that, “Every groan from the fiend, every contortion of his body was cheered by the thickly packed crowd.” Eventually, the hot irons were thrust into his eye sockets and down his throat. Afterwards, finding he was still breathing, the crowd poured oil on him and set him on fire. The crowd then fought over the hot ashes to collect his bones and teeth as souvenirs.”
Imagine that as a public event, held at the Paris Texas fair grounds with children both present in the crowd and even participating in the torture!
I don’t think that I could watch such a thing without being permanently scarred by it.
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Sam Hose Lynching [Wiki]
The mob stopped just north of Newnan and went about their barbaric task. Newspapers reported that Wilkes/Hose’ ears, fingers and genitals were severed. The skin from his face was removed and his body was doused with kerosene. He was tied to a tree and burned alive. Some members of the mob cut off pieces of his dead body as souvenirs…
The torture of the victim lasted almost half an hour. It began when a man stepped forward and very matter-of-factly sliced off Hose’s ears. Then several men grabbed Hose’s arms and held them forward so his fingers could be severed one by one and shown to the crowd. Finally, a blade was passed between his thighs, Hose cried in agony, and a moment later his genitals were held aloft.
From the crude incisions he’d suffered, the bound, naked man was soon covered with bright crimson blood from head to foot, and must have appeared at last to be the “black devil” the newspapers had made him out to be all along. It was the last clear glimpse the crowd had of him, for with the command “Come on with the oil!” three men lifted the large can of kerosene and dumped its contents over Sam Hose’s head, and the pyre was set ablaze. “Sweet Jesus!” Hose was heard to exclaim, and these were believed to be his last words.
I mean, talk about barbaric! But again, much of this treatment was the result of the “Black Brute” stereotype.
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As always, not as a general rule, but it does – unfortunately – sum it up quite accurately.
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I think Abagond or whatever your name is.. you are incredibly pretentious .. to think that all white people dont understand that we live in a racist society..I understand that as a white person that there things that are easier for me then a black person to do..like getting a job interview. but with every race there are circumstances where people will prejudge you in becuase of your race.. Like people have said before if you want to know more about white people mabye yo should ask them individually rather than making claims which make you arrogant pretentious person no better than a slave master who thinks he knows better than the people he targets.. I have twin sisters guess what they hate themselves ..their culture and rather be black why is that?? mabye its because its white people in America cant be racist but other races are alowed to say whatever you like.. then you get mad when the white majority doesnt want to hear you.. You as a black person can make these claims this website and not get as much hate mail because your black ..think about it for a second if a white person said the things you said right now ..you would come off as an ignorant ass.. white or black your thought pattern is incredibly pretentious and flawed. and im tired of seeing your stupid blogs everywhere.get over it and live your life stop worrying about us white people. you obviously dont like us and no one going to listen to someone who puts words in their mouth and has no understanding of whats live your life as a white person no matter how much analyze it just like i would never what its like to black in america.. u make me want to become racist with all the crap white people have to tolerate.
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John:
1. This is a personal blog, not a scholarly journal or holy writ. It is a place where I express my views, however right or wrong they may be. I know I am not always right. I expect people to disagree with me. Thus the comment section.
2. I never ever say “ALL white people” are this or that. But MANY white people get upset at what I say and then put the word “all” in my mouth. I do not talk like that. Some white people are way more racist than what I am saying, some are way less. I am thinking of the broad middle of White America or, depending on context, some part of them, like those who use certain arguments or stereotypes.
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amband:
I accidentally deleted your comment. You can resubmit it.
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If there’s one thing racists love is using statistics (usually exaggerated) and news reports to state their case that black men are more violent and hypersexual. I noticed on our old friends’ blogs, Unamused and Chuck’s, that they post news articles, links, and videos of crimes committed by blacks, and the are in ecstacy when the victim is white.
What’s funny is how some racists believe the media is unfair to whites and is too liberal, but they use reports from the same media to state their cases.
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“I never ever say “ALL white people” are this or that. But MANY white people get upset at what I say and then put the word “all” in my mouth.”
so if I were to say “black people are lazy” and someone told me that was racist, I could just say “I didn’t say ALL black people, stop putting words in my mouth.” and they would be like “oh sorry, I misunderstood you, my mistake.”
hmmm something tells me that wouldn’t fly here on planet earth. The fact is that the word “all” or at least “most” is directly implied. I don’t know where you got the idea that you could use a general term like WP and somehow have that not be taken as referring to anyone who is white.
by your usage rules, you could say just about anything about any group and technically you would be right. I could say blacks are lazy because some blacks are lazy just as some whites and some Asians are lazy. I could say black people love fried chicken because some blacks do love fried chicken, as does a certain number of people who belong to any group.
You are generalizing and trying to squeak out of it on a technicality. It’s dishonest.
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“It is why whites are afraid to walk alone in black neighbourhoods: some black man might jump out of nowhere and rape or kill them.”
If that is why whites are afraid, why are blacks afraid as well? It seems that blacks also believe this stereotype about black men.
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@ jasOnburns–
If that is why whites are afraid, why are blacks afraid as well? It seems that blacks also believe this stereotype about black men.
I’ll bet that even the black men who claim this is simply a stereotype are way more afraid of other black men jumping out at them than they are of white men doing that. Instead of admitting that it’s a big problem, too many American blacks try to deny it. You can’t solve a problem if you can’t admit that it is a problem. If they can’t admit this, no one is going to take them seriously about anything.
This whole discussion becomes so jumbled and chaotic after a while until it doesn’t make sense anymore.
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“This whole discussion becomes so jumbled and chaotic after a while until it doesn’t make sense anymore.”
I think the reason for this is that both sides of the debate are trying to obscure half of the truth, the half that doesn’t neatly fit inside their narrative. It’s true that as Abagond says fear of black men is inflated and a result of unfair stereotypes. I know this to be true even as you wouldn’t catch me strolling through a black neighborhood alone, because I know that there is enough dysfunction present as to make it unsafe for me. I think these two things feed on one another.
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@Jorbia
“I’ll bet that even the black men who claim this is simply a stereotype are way more afraid of other black men jumping out at them than they are of white men doing that. Instead of admitting that it’s a big problem, too many American blacks try to deny it.”
-This is dumb. Being a black man, it’s not hard for me to see the variation w/in my group. Yes, if a man looks like a “thug”, I will put my guard up, but most black males are not thugs! If most of us aren’t thugs why would I feel that I am in danger just by being around another black dude’s presence? Is it really that hard to discern between a Lance Gross/Laz Alonzo type and some TI/Lil Wayne lookin dudes? I understand the need for stereotyping in some instances, but “black man=violent” is kind of vague and just damn lazy.
@Jas0nburns
“I know this to be true even as you wouldn’t catch me strolling through a black neighborhood alone, because I know that there is enough dysfunction present as to make it unsafe for me”
-This is dumb too. Every black neighborhood is not the same. I think it’s hilarious that any white person would be afraid to enter my neighborhood solely bc it is predominantly black.Their are more too many black neighborhoods that are safe & stable for someone to make a judgement based on racial population statistics alone.
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“The fact is that the word “all” or at least “most” is directly implied. I don’t know where you got the idea that you could use a general term like WP and somehow have that not be taken as referring to anyone who is white.”
-Yeah, I realized the hypocrisy behind this a long time ago. I was going to mention it when someone asked if Abagond seemed anti-white in the open thread(to me he often comes off as resentful about white racism, prejudiced, and subjective, but nv hateful), but I didn’t care to comment at the time.
-Being objective really isn’t that hard. All you have to do is ask yourself, “if I was ____ would I feel comfortable with this?” and then proceed follow the golden rule.
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“Yes, if a man looks like a “thug”, I will put my guard up, but most black males are not thugs!”
I see your point, and none of the black men I interact with on a daily basis fit into any type of thug catagory at all. So in my experience the great majority of black men are not thugs or brutes, which is why I agree that it is an unfair stereotype. However, It just seems like the thug ratio is higher with black Americans than with other groups in my experience. That’s why I personally would avoid being in even a middle class black neighborhood alone. (emphasis on alone) I know from experience that by the time you get close enough to determine whether someone is a thug or not, it’s too late.
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Cynic, what’s dumb is to continue trying to convince people to relax when people know that there’s a reason to feel unsafe. You’re claiming that this is just an imaginary threat. You’re not going to be able to sell that.
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@JasOnburns–
That’s why I personally would avoid being in even a middle class black neighborhood alone. (emphasis on alone) I know from experience that by the time you get close enough to determine whether someone is a thug or not, it’s too late.
You would be safe in certain middle class black neighborhoods, but not in others because some middle class black neighborhoods have thugs living in them since they are relatives of law abiding residents. Since you’re white, you would most likely not be able to figure out which is which because you can’t read the cues. Even if a black man can’t read the cues, he might be able to talk or fight his way out or go unnoticed if he’s misread the cues. If a black man dresses in a certain way, the chances are that some thugs would not notice or bother him, but there’s no way you could hide your complexion.
This is a problem that American black men need to face and handle.
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@Jorbia & Jas0nburns
Black men are not threats. Yea, their is a higher ratio of thugs, but it really isn’t hard to discern between the thugs and regular old black dudes. Their is nothing dumb about not being afraid of some Laz Alonzo looking black guy. You aren’t being any smarter or safer by avoiding him based on race alone. That’s just lazy(ier than normal) stereotyping.
I also have no idea why you guys are bringing up middle class black neighborhoods when I nv said I lived in one. In the “7 layers” post I stated that i live in a quasi-burb, which may qualify as a suburb, although some of the residents are poor. Many ppl are lower middle class while others(like me) are legally below the poverty line, there is plenty of yard space, and the houses are like 30, 40yrs old. That being said, I don’t worry about crime at all. My family doesnt panic when the doors aren’t locked, my sister was fine walking 15mins from the bus stop every night. This is the complete opposite of when was living on my downtown campus. At school their IS reason to be afraid bc there ARE robberies left & right. Both of those environments are majority black, but it only makes sense to be afraid in one, whether you are alone or not.
Crime rates, and not whether their is a higher # thugs in a racial group, should be the determining factor of whether a neighborhood is safe or not.
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*complete opposite of when I was living on my downtown campus
I also want to add that I just saw one of the few white ladies that live in my neighborhood walking her dog peacefully a few days ago…
Smh… my blackness does not make me immune to being a victim of crime. If i dont feel unsafe in my own neighborhood than there is no reason for a white person to be afraid.
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“Smh… my blackness does not make me immune to being a victim of crime. If i dont feel unsafe in my own neighborhood than there is no reason for a white person to be afraid.”
I 100% agree with that, and I didn’t say that my race would make me a target. I know Jorbia did allude to that but that wasn’t something I was concerned with. I think being a stranger/ being alone / looking soft is what makes you a target in a bad neighborhood regardless of race.
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“I’ll bet that even the black men who claim this is simply a stereotype are way more afraid of other black men jumping out at them than they are of white men doing that. Instead of admitting that it’s a big problem, too many American blacks try to deny it. You can’t solve a problem if you can’t admit that it is a problem. If they can’t admit this, no one is going to take them seriously about anything.”
Jorbia, there will always be people within groups that fit the stereotypes of their respected groups produced by groups with the most privileges.They are the minority within those groups, but most people focus more on them more than the other members. Why? Among other things, to make themselves feel better. It’s become so strong in this society that people within the groups accept stereotypes about themselves.
However, there have been discussions on this issue with negative stereotypes within black communities for some time now. What I don’t see often are whites joining in on the discussions seeing as how their people throughout history to today created, benefited, and still believe in stereotypes they have about black people.
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However, there have been discussions on this issue with negative stereotypes within black communities for some time now.
You guys are making assaults and other crimes in these communities into a figment of peoples imagination. Okay, let’s all agree that it’s just a bunch of stereotypes. That was a very easy problem to solve.
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On the flip side, I believe the hardest thing is for me, as a White person, to acknowledge, understand, and try to see the stereotypes people have about Whites — particularly since they are often negative. It’s difficult to look at your group from an outside perspective when you are so used to seeing in the same way, over and over and over again.
For instance, my girlfriend when we first started dating made the comment that she thought White people always smelled like baloney when they were soaking wet from the rain. At first I thought this was hilarious, mostly because it was so silly and wrong. But now I use it as a way of understand how even the stupidest stereotypes can grow in the absence of experience — real, in your face experience — with people from different groups.
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***understanding***
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“she thought White people always smelled like baloney when they were soaking wet from the rain.”
hahaha.
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@Jorbia
When did I ever say that there weren’t any dangerous or crime ridden black neighborhoods? All I said was that not ALL of them are dangerous. In fact, many aren’t. Maybe it’s a different story where you live, but I feel perfectly safe, or as safe as I would in a white place, in most of the areas in my majority black city.
@Zek
Yeah, I haven’t heard about baloney, but I am familiar with the “white ppl smell like wet dogs” stereotype
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“You guys are making assaults and other crimes in these communities into a figment of peoples imagination. Okay, let’s all agree that it’s just a bunch of stereotypes. That was a very easy problem to solve.”
Jorbia, by you referring to me or blacks as “you guys” it’s safe to conclude that you are either white or non-African American.
In the first place most of us who were victims or have witnessed crimes think less about whether they are stereotype threats or not as opposed to our safety. Black people in this nation are quite aware of crimes occuring within black communities, and there are those who are actively doing something about it.
In the second place even if the crime rate in black communities is almost nonexistant, that would not matter to some people outside the communities. The small number of criminals is what’s matter to them, not the people who do not fit that stereotype of the “criminal black man” OR the people who are not seen as capable of crimes in the neighborhoods of those outside that reality.
In the third and final place speaking from experience the ones who make crimes into a figment of people’s imagination are mostly whites. When the Columbine shooting occured, white people were shocked as hell that something like that happened in a community like that. They thought something like that happened in communities of color, never in their area.
However, did that create the stereotype that young white males are more murderous than any other race including blacks? No. Whites are seemingly more unaware about the possibility of being a victim of a crime by another white person, but they are scared at the thought of being attacked by a black person. Meanwhile, there are white parents physically and sexually abusing their children. There are white ministers sexually assaulting and raping young boys. There are young whites drinking and getting high while driving, and there are white females seducing and having sex with their students. Not to mention the frequent murder-suicides involving mostly white families, and the mostly white serial killers.
The bottom line is this; black people are aware of the crimes that are damaging their communities. Some have acknowledged it, and are doing something about it. What is the white community doing to solve its crime problem?
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“When did I ever say that there weren’t any dangerous or crime ridden black neighborhoods? All I said was that not ALL of them are dangerous. In fact, many aren’t. Maybe it’s a different story where you live, but I feel perfectly safe, or as safe as I would in a white place, in most of the areas in my majority black city.”
Like Cynic said, most black communities are not dangerous, but most people, depending on who they are, are mostly focused on the crime occuring in the ones that are. Some want to step in and fix those communities while others use it for their benefit, mainly to make them and others who are like them feel good about not living there among “those” people. The latter is the very essence of stereotypes, to dehumanize others for their personal enjoyment.
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“For instance, my girlfriend when we first started dating made the comment that she thought White people always smelled like baloney when they were soaking wet from the rain.”
I too was always taught that Whites were full of baloney. Perhaps the smell was psychosomatic. She simply reasoned subconsciously, that with all the rain…
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Jorbia, by you referring to me or blacks as “you guys” it’s safe to conclude that you are either white or non-African American.
In the first place most of us who were victims or have witnessed crimes think less about whether they are stereotype threats or not as opposed to our safety.
Much of what some of you all are saying is contradictory and chaotic. This is why you sound like you’re just complaining and trying to blame whites. Is there a quite high physical safety issue in the black community or isn’t there one? You’re now trying to make it seem like it’s as safe in the black community as it is in the white community. I’ve often heard of American blacks complaining about crime in their own communities. They are scared. They feel unsafe and say that the police has abandoned them and left them there unprotected. I’ve heard and read that many times. Some of you here are making it seem like black people are lying about that and saying that the complaints are based on white stereotypes. I wasn’t the one who said it’s about stereotypes.I’m saying that people there feel a real threat to their safety. Maybe some younger black men feel safer because they’re black and male. They may feel they can fight back and outrun potential attackers. You should ask American black women whether they feel safe in most of those communities. Ask Koreans. Ask Pakistanis. Ask black immigrants. It’s not just whites who feel unsafe.
We all know that there is no place on earth that is completely safe. if whites have all of the crime you mentioned in their communities and are just as unsafe there, why is it that blacks who can afford it are running to live in predominantly white communities? Why aren’t whites and others running to live in black communities?
Wouldn’t it just make more sense to admit that there’s a serious issue with black males committing crimes and then direct your energy toward remedies, instead of denying it’s a serious issue?
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“Is there a quite high physical safety issue in the black community or isn’t there one?”
Not in all of them. Not even in most of them. That’s the point you’re missing.
“If whites have all of the crime you mentioned in their communities and are just as unsafe there, why is it that blacks who can afford it are running to live in predominantly white communities?”
Not all of them “run” to live in predominantly white communities just because of “safety” issues.
“Why aren’t whites and others running to live in black communities?”
Why don’t you tell me. Oh, that’s right. Black communities EVERYWHERE are filled with crime committed by black males, right?
“Wouldn’t it just make more sense to admit that there’s a serious issue with black males committing crimes and then direct your energy toward remedies, instead of denying it’s a serious issue?”
I thought I just made that point in my last response:
“The bottom line is this; black people are aware of the crimes that are damaging their communities. Some have acknowledged it, and are doing something about it.”
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yeah, i’m leaning more towards this being more about perception than reality. I think Cynic has a point that you should be looking at actual crime rates and not race when determining the safety of a given neighborhood. It is lazy to just assume a black neighborhood is more dangerous.
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Jorbia, it sounds to me like you’re trying to say that the black brute stereotype holds a lot of merit based on what you’ve heard supposedly by other blacks about not being safe in their own neighborhoods. I also sense of hint of “black males are more criminal minded than white males” in your responses. I could be wrong though.
Here’s the points trying to be made:
Most black males do not fit this stereotype.
Not all black communities are crime ridden by black males.
Some, if not many, black communities are safer as opposed to some of their white counterparts.
Some black people living in neighborhoods with crime problems are trying to do something about it. They don’t deny it. If they did, they wouldn’t be doing anything at all.
Just because the black neighborhoods in your area may not be safe doesn’t mean ALL black neighborhoods are the same way.
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In my experience, whenever you venture in to ANY new domain, the current inhabitants will often prove territorial. How this manifests itself can vary i.e. an uncomfortable silence, vocally, or heaven forbid physically, but you would hope that if your intentions are decent and honorouable you will be left to go about your business though perhaps under the watchful eye of an voyeuristic inhabitant (aka nosey neighbour) 🙂
In the U.K, if I were to venture in a pub in a rural area, there would be that uncomfortable/hostile silence and I might just have to wait my turn to get served after the local! On the other hand though, it could be a nice cosy country pub where they might welcome someone who’s ‘different’.
Even when you are a kid and you go in to the next ‘neighborhood’ to yours, you can guarantee that the inhabitants of that area will be checking you out to see whats what. Kids usually have less reservations than adults so generally you would find yourself in an all out territory war with x shouting ‘go back to your area, this is ours’. By the same token though kids are generally more open to difference than adults and this lack of reservations enables children to embrace difference without really noticing it.
Unfortunately when we become adults much of this innocence is lost and similar fears that haunted our parents now get passed on to us. In my experience this has been brought to the fore where I played with X well enough at school, though aware that their parents had sterotypical views/reservations about other races much to the disgust of said X, only to meet that person 10 years later, chatting and catching up for them to reveal very similar approach to their parents.
I guess what I am saying is that these fears of ‘black/white/asian’ neighbourhoods are not inherent – they develop and are influenced by social stigmas the older and less ‘open’ we get.
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@ The Cynic
“although some of the residents are poor. Many ppl are lower middle class while others(like me) are legally below the poverty line”
I find this hard to believe (and I mean this as a compliment) because people with your level of awareness are usually aware of how to overcome personal challenges like poverty. How can you possibly be below the poverty line? I don’t understand.
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Something that plays a part in this I think which isn’t being discussed was reflected in a comment made by Tyrone. (who I never thought i’d be quoting):
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/06/16/bell-hooks-talking-race-and-racism/#comment-90105
“The character flaw that I see in a lot of blackmen is “Groupthink.” A lot of us have a tendency to think and act as a group, and not as individuals. ”
I think a lot of WP observe this in BP or at least think they have. So when we see blacks engaging in similar behaviors over and over again, we couple that with our idea that blacks tend to do everything as a group, (politics, fashion, music, language,) so if a few BP have been observed doing something, it seems likely to us that most other blacks do this thing as well. (Mind you, every ingroup does this to every outgroup, but the power dynamic inherent in Western society makes it racism imo.)
So naturally this extends to criminality, we see all blacks as potential criminals because we know that some blacks are criminals.
All any American of any race needs to do is imagine a Muslim woman in a Burka. As far as most of us are concerned, there is absolutely no difference between one Muslim woman in a Burka and another, we imagine that they are all identical carbon copies or clones when in reality they are just as different from one another as we are. So if we saw a woman in a Burka kill someone, we would fear all women in Burka’s. Blacks would be no exception to this stereotyping behavior.
If you’re a white high school student and you notice that every single black student is wearing their pants the same way or their hair the same way you start to think this group mentality extends to every aspect of life.
Of course, what WP fail to see is how we also conform to one another yet still see ourselves as individuals.
I believe the reason we find it so hard to see blacks as individuals is because we don’t spend hardly any time together in real life. It would literally be impossible for WP to hold these views if we were more socially integrated.
More people need to just deal with the temporary discomfort and awkwardness and stop isolating.
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@ jas0nburns
This is why I think so many Blacks hold ill will toward Whites in general. It’s because they voluntarily isolate themselves because of stereotypes, form and perpetuate more stereotypes based on lack of exposure, which leads to creating social and legal policies based on those stereotypes, helping making those stereotypes a self fulfilling prophecy and then turn around and say “See? They’re not stereotypes. That’s how they are so why bother. Let’s just isolate ourselves from them.”
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“The character flaw that I see in a lot of blackmen is “Groupthink.” A lot of us have a tendency to think and act as a group, and not as individuals. ”
I think a lot of WP observe this in BP or at least think they have
Aha! The ole ‘pack’ mentality theme rears its head again. I don’t know many individuals who at some time in their life doesnt assimilate themselves with another/other groups of likeminded/similar people. I know that I see this in everyday life whether its mothers at the school or co-workers or even people joining a club or exercise class.
I remember being in town as a youngster, there were a group of kids from another school, a couple I knew in passing and said hi to. Hi. Thats all. When I got to work the following Monday, the lady receptionist there told me that her son had seen me in town ‘hanging out with a load of black people’. I was mystified – the girl I was with was white, yet her son (who I hadnt even noticed) quickly made the judgement that as I was in the vicinity with the group where I fleetinlgy said hi to a couple of individuals , I must be with them despite everything else about the situation that suggested otherwise.
How do we break down these barriers and stereotypes? We all know that there are individuals who purport to these ‘labels’ and that are out there. I think that people convince themselves of something and instead of looking inside themselves and addressing this, they are happy to leave the blame elsewhere.
Everybody needs to take individual responsibility if we are to ‘integrate’ cohesively and successfully. Regardless of race etc we are not always going to get on with another individual but, by the same token ‘difference’ shouldnt be what prevents us from finding a common ground. There is a rich, interesting, huge and diverse world out there – if you’re are afraid and only want to experience whats on your doorstep thats fine but, the fact that you are writing on a forum such as this suggests that there is even a smidgen of you who want to broaden your horizens.
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“I think a lot of WP observe this in BP or at least think they have. So when we see blacks engaging in similar behaviors over and over again, we couple that with our idea that blacks tend to do everything as a group, (politics, fashion, music, language,) so if a few BP have been observed doing something, it seems likely to us that most other blacks do this thing as well. (Mind you, every ingroup does this to every outgroup, but the power dynamic inherent in Western society makes it racism imo.)
The only place I can see that this is true is politically. Aside from that, Black people are all over the place.
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So naturally this extends to criminality, we see all blacks as potential criminals because we know that some blacks are criminals.
Only a small portion of blacks are violent criminals. Since whites avoid being around them, they do the most harm to other blacks. They need to be outted and dealt with and no excuses made. This needs to be done especially for the good of the rest of the great portion of good, law-abiding American black people, but for everyone else too.
Blacks who sell drugs to other blacks are also just as bad or even worse since they destroy many lives too by selling drugs to young black people who then harm black people and others. American black criminals do the most harm to other blacks, but still these other blacks will mainly try to make excuses and cover for them, just like some blacks are trying to do here when they try to minimize the physical danger issue by saying it’s not that bad. Right!
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Black guys ARE dangerous because IME they:
1. Protect the honor of black girls/women in their communities
2. Historically they have preferred to marry black women
3. Their earning potential almost doubles if they graduate from an HBCU as opposed to a historically white university
4. They were the brains behind most of the thriving black communites of the 20th century
You just can’t trust them . . . I believe that they are so dangerous and brutal that I married one.
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“Black guys ARE dangerous because IME they:
…..
You just can’t trust them . . . I believe that they are so dangerous and brutal that I married one.”
*********
This comment qualifies as one of the BEST comments I’ve ever seen on the web!!
Thanks Pheobe.
: )))
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These stereotypes are unfortunately somewhat grounded in reality. Currently the most dangerous cities in america all have high densities of black people. Places like Baltimore and Detroit have had 100-200+ murders a year for well over a decade. This is a phenomenon exclusive to black communities. Murder and violent crime happen everywhere but happen at staggering rates in black communities.
As far as rape goes, a white woman is far more likely to be raped by a black male than a black woman is to be raped by a white male. White on black rape is rare but black on white rape is very commonplace. Furthermore rape occurs in black areas and countries at a far higher rate than it does in white areas and countries. The rape capitol of the world is currently South America which is 80% black and rape is very prevalent in many African countries like the Congo Republic, Ivory Coast, Congo and so forth. Rape occurs at much higher rates in African countries than it does in countries with a strong Caucasian majority like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and etc.
Finally its not uncommon for significant sized groups of white people to find themselves living among large groups of blacks, where the vast majority of crime is committed by said blacks. College Campuses are a good example of this. It is not uncommon for universities, attended by mostly white people, to be in areas very close to black neighborhoods and to have the vast majority of assaults, muggings, robberies, and etc., be committed by blacks. The university near me, the University of MD in College Park, is situated in PG county. While the University is largely white and even the city of College Park itself has a significant Caucasian population, almost all reported muggings, assaults, and etc, have had black perpetrators as the described suspects. Whites are victimized by blacks at a much larger rate than blacks are victimized by whites.
So while not all blacks are violent thugs and criminals, its not hard to understand why a white person (or any person for that matter) would be more vigilant around a bunch of young black people late at night than they would be around a group of similar aged young white guys or Asian guys.
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^^^Bliff may be gone, but the Bliffisms continue.
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@ AARON
Listen up good….I won’t respond further.
No amount of rape done by black men will EVER measure up to the mind-gagging violence done by white men to black/Native women.
They obilterated an entire race of people, FOREVER, and created an new race of blacks/ Indians called Mulatto/Mestizco.
Get the message, assh*ole?
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What did I say that was incorrect?
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I dont think that has anything to do with this at all. I think this is about the current Black brute stereotype not white people wiping out the Native Americans 200 years ago. What do the actions of dead white people from over a century ago have to do with the black brute stereotype of today? Absolutely nothing.
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Did white men rape black and Native American women in staggering numbers in the 18th and 19th centuries? Yes they did. Do black men currently rape white women at far greater rates than white men rape black women? Yes they do. That you have to invoke the actions of dead white men from 150 years ago really shows how weak your position is.
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@ Aaron
In that whites are way more affected by white crime than black crime, the overblown white fear of black crime has everything to do with the fear that blacks want revenge for crimes past (slavery, Jim Crow) and present (racism). Deep down whites know that their relationship with blacks is completely fradulent. That is why they must demonize blacks, making them into the bad guys.
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@Aaron
I would have to say I disagree with several points you made in your comments concerning “black brutes”, “rape”, and “murder”.
Black brutes. This was a stereotype originally made in the past to use as an excuse to lynch or jail Black men. It was not based on fact. The time during the use of the term did not have immense amounts of crime committed by Black men. There of course were Black men who were criminals but the numbers were not disproportionate for the population and could not accurately be used for the entire Black male population. Even today, yes there is a disproportionate amount of Black individuals that are in jail but the reasons for that situation is complex and cannot be simply be attributed to a specific “race” which you imply with some of your comments like “This is a phenomenon exclusive to black communities. Murder and violent crime happen everywhere but happen at staggering rates in black communities.”
Rape. I will assume that you made your comments based on statistics or news reports. Their are several issues with making a conclusion from statistics. The statistics do not count for all rape reports and generally the sources even mention only having about 44% of all at times (sources lile FBI, etc.). Then there is culture as well. Not to long ago (1950s I believe) WOC could be raped in the US without legal prosecution being taken against the rapist. This was because WOC were assumed to be promiscuous and of low moral standards. So you have WOC whose voices are shunned and their worth devalued. You factor in pass mis-justice as well as shame that is experienced by a woman in her community then you have less rape reports. It is not reasonable to make a statement like “Do black men currently rape white women at far greater rates than white men rape black women? Yes they do” because it is not clear if that is the case with lack of full data.
Murder. Very complex and to generalize things to make it appear that it happens “exclusively” in the Black communities is inaccurate. Countries with high inequality have been shown to have high crime. The US is the least developed of the developed countries because of the immensely high level of inequality (which includes factors like lack of proper healthcare, education, etc. [look into HDI for more info]). It is not about race but more so about the availability of resources and rights to people. This will include legislature to ensure something like women rights and you find that in countries with few laws protecting women rights then there are more rapes, assaults on women. There is also a need for a strong and dedicated police force. The US have well trained police but how they uphold the law at times leave less to be desired. There can be abuse of power and that will show up as a part of inequality experienced by various ethnic groups. It really isn’t reasonable to compare countries because they have different sets of laws, police forces, access to resources, hierarchies, illegal activities etc that will skew actual reports of crime.
Those are the reason that I disagree with several of your points. You have made several broad generalizations which I feel are not accurate for the reasons mentioned above.
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Aaron, where are your links to the statistics about South America having much more rape? I live in Brazil and I dont feel we are the rape capital of the world. If you just pulled that out of the air, your whole point of veiw is skewed…please clarify
And check out the great points people are making to you, you are much more likley to get hurt by another white person than a black person.Better start keeping your eyes open for all people instead of just being paranoid of blacks because of skewed statistics
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I dont think the fear of black crime has as much to do with the fear that blacks want revenge for past crimes of slavery as much as it has to do with the fact that their is this perception that blacks are generally more prone to criminal behavior and this is a perception largely grounded in reality for whatever reason.
Lets look at two large American cities; Boston MA and Baltimore Md. Boston has around 650k people, blacks make up less than 25% of the population. In no single year at least within the last decade has Boston had more than 75 murders. Baltimore also has around 650k people and it is about 65% black. In only one year out of the last decade has Baltimore had less than 200 murders. Over the last decade it has averaged around 250 murders a year while Boston has averaged about 60. Detroit has a population of about 900k and is 75-80% black and has averaged 375 murders a year at least since the turn of the millennium. The white fear of black crime is grounded in the reality that neighborhoods and cities with significant black populations have significantly more violent crime than neighborhoods and cities with small or nonexistent black communities.
Violence and crime are also a big reason why educated and upwardly mobile blacks often leave black neighborhoods.
So it doesnt do much good to pretend like black crime isnt an issue and black neighborhoods are meccas of safety and prosperity that people flock to. Black neighborhoods do generally have more crime than white neighborhoods. It is far more dangerous to walk late at night in many black neighborhoods than it is to walk at night in many white neighborhoods. To act like there is absolutely zero basis for a white fear of black crime is an act of denial of statistical facts readily available to everyone.
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@Aaron
Statistics are flawed. Statistics do not account for every single crime every committed because it would be difficult to get those numbers especially when someone knows the offender and chooses not to report the crime. You mention higher levels of crime but not the life chances that are available in a given area. What is the median income for the places you mentioned, the education, level of poverty, insurance, unemployment, law enforcement, policies and laws, etc..If you don’t take in the multiple factors that contribute to crime then your reasoning is flawed. The comparisons are meaningless because they do not explore the “why”. There was a recent study that showed that violent crimes rates have nothing to do with race (I can’t recall the name of the study, I had a link to it in another thread, from a criminology journal). So yes, “white fear of black crime” is not necessary. It should just be a fear of crime and to try to focus on race alone is very dangerous and foolish.
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@deedee You cannot really argue against statics, or claim statistics to be false with an argument like unreported crimes and such. Currently more white women report being raped by a black man than black women report being raped by a white man. If black women are not reporting being raped by white men, there is really nothing that can be done about that. Black women report being raped by black men so its obviously not an issue with black women just not reporting sexual assault at all. Statistically it is very rare that a black woman reports being raped by a white male. You cant just hand wave statistics away when they dont arent in your favor.
Nowhere did I say that murder happens only in the black community. I said it happens at far higher rates in the black community than it does in the white community. This is basically a non-debatable fact from a statistical standpoint. There is nothing complex about it. Murder happens at far higher rates in black communities than it does in white communities. That is as much a fact as saying the sky is blue.
Furthermore lack of healthcare does not or at least should not cause anyone to commit criminal activity and I would argue that this country does not have a lack of proper education, you just have people who dont take advantage of it and this is overwhelmingly the case in the black community. The lack of education among blacks is more of a cultural phenomenon than any inherent problem with the education system itself. The education problem within the black community stems more to do with the culture and environment black children are raised in than it does with any failings of the school system.
In the past it was indeed true (I assume since I wasnt alive) that blacks were often stigmatized for the actions of a very small few. But this occurred largely in the south and had less to do with blacks being generalize because of the actions of a few and more to do with white southerns having an overwhelmingly strong dislike for blacks in general for no really good reason at all. In other words southern blacks just didnt like black people at all. Today however this stereotype comes from the high levels of violence in black commercials, the way young blacks often dress and act out in public whether it be the rash of flash mobs that have been committed by seemingly only young black kids, fights and shootouts on public beaches, fights in restaurants and other generally buffoonish behavior and then the most popular music of young black people is rap where the vast majority of the songs are about violence, drug dealing and so forth. So the black brute stereotype may have been unfounded in the early part of the 20th century but its not hard to find a basis for it in just about every black community in the country today.
All in all you dont really have any solid strong reasons for disagreeing with my points. You basically disagree because you dont like the notion, not because there is anything truly wrong with any point I have made.
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Deedee if you knew anything about statistics you would knowthat they are not meant to account for every single instance but rather to provide a a good well rounded idea of what is going on. You dont have to have every single murder reported to know that a lot more murders occur in Detroit and Baltimore than occur in Boston. You dont have to have every single rape reported to know that white women are raped by black men at a much higher rate than black women are raped by white men. You would have to propose that there are multitudes of black women getting raped by white men and not reporting it to make the claim that you are making that statistics are flawed. You would have to argue that hundreds of murders go unreported in white communities every year to support your argument that statistics about murder are flawed. Basically my point is that simply saying statistics are flawed is a very weak argument that you would not get away with among any group of reasonably educated people. Im sure the census doesnt get every single White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic person but would you then argue that there are more black people than white people in this country because not every single white and black person was counted?Statistics are not meant to provide a bullet point for every single crime but to argue that statistics dont mirror reality is a flawed, false, uneducated argument based solely on not understanding how statistics work and why they are used.
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@Aaron
“Nowhere did I say that murder happens only in the black community…..”
I mentioned your comment implies “only” due to the usage of the term “exclusive”.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-black-brute-stereotype/#comment-127464
I recall using the term flawed which does not mean false. So your statement about my stance is wrong. Flawed = IMPERFECT, even in basic statistics courses (which I have taken and I did a small study for a course) it is clear that there can be error in statistics so you have to be careful when considering them to make conclusions.
I have some reading for you to do since apparently you don’t understand my stance.
THE CENTRAL PLACE OF RACE IN CRIME AND JUSTICE—THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF CRIMINOLOGY’S 2011 SUTHERLAND ADDRESS
RECONSIDERING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PERCEIVED NEIGHBORHOOD RACIAL COMPOSITION AND WHITES’ PERCEPTIONS OF VICTIMIZATION RISK: DO RACIAL STEREOTYPES MATTER?
Global Study On Homicide 2011 (very long but informative)
I have the right to disagree just as you do. I feel that you believe that I am ignoring Black crime, I am not and I am aware of the numbers. My issue lies with you implying that the blame can be placed on Black people for being “more likely” to do crimes. Race should be considered but not in the “blaming” manner that I have noticed people using. The US needs solutions and making generalized conclusions isn’t helping. The factors contributing to crime need to be considered and to avoid them will not fix the problem.
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@Aaron
I have a response to you in moderation. I feel that you made some inaccurate observations. I also have some links in the moderated comment for you to look over whenever you get the chance. You can believe what you want but I feel that you are not taking all factors into consideration which lead to bias and misinformation.
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@Matari,
Did you read my comment entirely?
No you didn’t. I’m assuming you are a BM hater.
SMH at the stupidity.
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@Aaron
Also. According to you the FBI is making a “flawed, false, uneducated argument”.
“Historically, the causes and origins of crime have been the subjects of investigation by many disciplines. Some factors that are known to affect the volume and type of crime occurring from place to place are:
…..
Economic conditions, including median income, poverty level, and job availability.
Cultural factors and educational, recreational, and religious characteristics.
Family conditions with respect to divorce and family cohesiveness.
Climate.
Effective strength of law enforcement agencies.
Administrative and investigative emphases of law enforcement.
Policies of other components of the criminal justice system (i.e., prosecutorial, judicial, correctional, and probational).
Citizens’ attitudes toward crime.
Crime reporting practices of the citizenry….
The data user is, therefore, cautioned against comparing statistical data of individual reporting units from cities, counties, metropolitan areas, states, or colleges or universities solely on the basis of their population coverage or student enrollment. Until data users examine all the variables that affect crime in a town, city, county, state, region, or other jurisdiction, they can make no meaningful comparisons.”
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/caution-against-ranking
I have made my stance based on reviewing the methodologies used by the sources of the statistics as well as on the different organizations on statements on the accuracy of the data. There is nothing “flawed, false, uneducated” about my argument. That was an unfair assessment but yet again that is how you feel and am not here to change how you feel.
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Well yes I do agree that there are many variables involved in why black neighborhoods have more crime and violence but you didnt say there were variables involved but rather you are arguing that the statistics themselves that indicate this are flawed when that is not what the disclaimer is saying. The disclaimer is saying there are many factors that influence crime so use caution when using stats about crime to make a particular point. You are saying that statistics are flawed because they dont account for all crimes which shows a misunderstanding of how statistics work. You can be robbed, raped, or murdered in Boston or Detroit but statistically it is more likely to happen in Detroit than it is in Boston. There are many variables that influence this statistical likelihood but that is not the same as saying the statistical likelihood is flat out incorrect.
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BR that was supposed to say South Africa is the rape capitol of the world, not South America.
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DeeDee when I said “this is a phenomenon exclusive to the black community” I was speaking of the high rates of murder not murder itself. In other words I was saying that having 200+ murders a year is a phenomenon exclusive to the black community not that murder itself only occurs in the black community
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@ Aaron
The trouble with statistics, besides being easy to twist, is that they strip out all the context. They give mile high view, not the ground view.
I lived in a part of New York where hundreds were murdered every year – you know, that phenomenon exclusive to the black community. It had nothing to do with the supposedly violent nature of black people but the drug trade and how the police stood back and let the dealers shoot it out. It made it a very dangerous part of the city, of the whole country, but that did not matter because only black and Latinos were dying. So, like, no big deal (/sarcasm).
Some black neighbourhoods in America are extremely safe, some extremely dangerous. Again, statistics makes them all seem the same and gives you no other possible “reason” but race because that is all those neighbourhoods have in common. Cool trick, bro.
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@Aaron
“Even today, yes there is a disproportionate amount of Black individuals that are in jail but the reasons for that situation is complex and cannot be simply be attributed to a specific “race””
“The statistics do not count for all rape reports and generally the sources even mention only having about 44% of all at times (sources lile FBI, etc.). Then there is culture as well… ”
“It really isn’t reasonable to compare countries because they have different sets of laws, police forces, access to resources, hierarchies, illegal activities etc that will skew actual reports of crime.”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-black-brute-stereotype/#comment-127476
“What is the median income for the places you mentioned, the education, level of poverty, insurance, unemployment, law enforcement, policies and laws, etc..If you don’t take in the multiple factors that contribute to crime then your reasoning is flawed. The comparisons are meaningless because they do not explore the “why””
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-black-brute-stereotype/#comment-127483
I have made several mentions that the situation is complex. I believe you may have just glossed over them. I hope you can see that I always understood that multiple variables are involved. Also I was using flawed as in the “imperfect” definition. Statistics are helpful but it is difficult to draw any real conclusions from them. The methods can be difficult to get 100% perfect data (like getting all reports which is practically impossible). I understand statistics and the insight it can bring but the numbers alone will not indicate causation (the “WHY”). That is what I meant so please understand I am not undermining statistics, just mentioning that it is not perfect.
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phoebe wrote:
@Matari,
Did you read my comment entirely?
No you didn’t. I’m assuming you are a BM hater.
SMH at the stupidity.
********
Ma’am. I did read your entire comment and I meant exactly what I wrote.
Would you kindly show me exactly what in my comment you found offensive and stupid?
BTW I am a black male that has a very high regard for black people.
I took your comment literally … and replied – literally.
I meant exactly what I wrote.
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The more I read white commenters, the happier I am that I distanced myself from them.
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Pheobe, Matari got everything you said, he is agreeing with you and understood your sarcasm
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@Matari,
Well allow me to apologize.
I thought you were only taking those two statements and isolating them.
My. Bad. LoLz
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Phoebe – no problem.. black marriage rates/long term male-female relationships/intact 2 parent households seem to be heading toward the way of dinosaurs .. so your comment gave me pause .. and a reason to enjoy a mini celebration because we (males and females) don’t *SEEM* to lift/hold each other up as much as past generations (parents, grandparents, etc..) once did.I could be incorrect.. Although it appears that we’ve lost some of the ground covered in your four points, your praise of black men caused my response. It’s nice to know that some black women still think well of black men.
B.R. Thank you.
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The problem with Aaron;s comments can be seen immediately in the following quotations, as Abagond pointed out earlier
I had coined the term “bliffism” after a (former) commenter who would repeat the very same claim that had been refuted by the post he was commenting on, or make himself example of the very subject that Abagond had posted.
In your case:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/reading-while-white-black-rape-statistics/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/reading-while-white-crime-statistics/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/stereotypes-have-some-truth-to-them/
But to go back to the quotations above, the problem with them is not merely the implication that correlation = causation, or that they lack context, but the obvious satanicity that the statements contain.
What is the relevance of comparing B on W rape to W on B rape? We could say the same thing about rape regarding Asians and Whites or white collar crime by W vs. B but it would be nothing more than a non–sequitor intended to rationalize a factually and morally unsupportable argument.
That argument being, that Afro-American culture is so pathological that it has actually reverted to stereotypes that in hindsight, are a correct representation of modern day Afro-Americans.
You cite Afro-American anti-intellectualism, as well as trash culture as one of the main causes of AA deviance. I thought that anti-intellectualism was an American trait – see for example any American news channel, election or summer movie blockbuster, never the perpetual fear of “eggheads”.
If you take a look at American history, you will realize that what you are describing is nothing more than a ethnic group that is now becoming urbanized, especially with racism:
http://atlantapost.com/2011/07/14/8-political-lies-about-blacks-that-you-shouldn%E2%80%99t-believe/2/
On Wikipedia – Institutional discrimination in the United States housing market , effects on African Americans
Blockbusting
Routine racism by the NYPD, a admitted by the NYPD – http://newamericamedia.org/2010/05/secret-nypd-tapes-document-routine-massive-police-racism.php
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another contribution. I liked this alot, and it fits in with Jan Pieterse’s notion
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A very old saying: “Statistics are like ladies of the night; you can dress them up any way you want and they’ll tell you whatever you want to hear.”
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okay I am going to try, and I repeat, try to post as calmly as possible. The comments on this post have reeeeeaaaaallllllyyyyy struck a chord with me. I am sick and tired of little boys with no respect for human beings coming on here and posting nonsense about Black crime statistics and thugs and stereotyping as if you are superior. SHUT THE H@LL UP. I have had so much done to me in my life and guess who did it…come on little boys…take a guess. White boys! I was raped by a white boy, beaten by a different white boy and yet another white boy tried to run over me with his car. Now some of you may think that is too much information but guess what…I don’t give a f@!k!!! Not once has a black man ever tried to harm me!!! So get over yourselves and come down off the pedestal that you put yourselves on!!!!!
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You dont have to have every single rape reported to know that white women are raped by black men at a much higher rate than black women are raped by white men.
As far as rape goes, a white woman is far more likely to be raped by a black male than a black woman is to be raped by a white male. White on black rape is rare but black on white rape is very commonplace.
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@Gill
“White on black rape is rare but black on white rape is very commonplace”
According to USDOJ stats, nearly 80% of all white rape victims identify their offenders as white. That’s somewhat close to the percentage of black rape victims who identify their offenders as black.
So how is “black on white rape very commonplace”? White on white rape is what is commonplace.
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People like Gill are like most people who identify themselves as religious. It’s written in the scriptures. So it must be true. Someone somewhere said that black-on-white rapes are common and he believed it.
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Michelle,
Forgive me for responding so late, but I’m really sorry that happened to you.
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Wow. This discussion has been going on for four years now.
Please allow me to share anecdotal evidence from my own life…
RIP James, an African-American librarian who was my friend when I was young. He was racially profiled by the police near his own place of work (in the parking lot.) Within a year he was dead: mugged and murdered by black teenagers in the neighborhood in which he lived. Shot to death.
RIP “Buddy”, a gay black man (possibly transgender) living in the downtown zone of Detroit, killed (by a group of black males) with a blunt force object to the back of the head.
The time I was standing on a corner across from the courthouse after midnight in downtown detroit (I am a white female) near four or five black guys, each over 6 feet tall (there was quite a crowd) and, to scare me, they started talking about recent drive-by shootings in the area. They wound up scaring themselves silly. I got on the bus, and the black female driver would not accept my transfer! I had to literally shove it into her hands and get her to look at it, she assumed it was expired.
The countless times I have walked onto a bus and heard discussions about the history of slavery, “I don’t like/don’t understand white people”, etc., etc., ad nauseum, as soon as an African-American saw a white face, black indigents trying to sit on my leg, etc….
The countless discussions I have had with African-Americans from all walks of life: the elderly unemployed black man who referred to me as “little girl” while explaining his troubles, the black professors (self-identified Muslims) proclaiming black supremacy, the black man with a turban on a bus who said it would be justice if all white people were enslaved and the white women raped, the two gay black men I witnessed molesting their own daughter on a public bus while the mother sat back and did nothing (they lifted her into the air, spread her legs and were kissing between her thighs. I screamed my head off. All the white passengers were silent!) They then tried to push me into moving traffic, but one of the men was subsequently sent to prison (I saw the short guy again after about 6 months… he’s still around).
There are many, many more absolutely heartrending stories that I have heard that I don’t have space for. The above are personal anecdotes *only*.
I’d have to agree that many African-Americans suffer from low self-esteem and are afraid of white people. I also wonder what @the cynic thinks a typical “black male thug” looks like- maybe a teenager that likes rap? I have also encountered gang members, and though they are deliberately intimidating, I was never assaulted by one. In my experience, an indigent man is more likely to rob you, and the most dangerous spots are downtown zones, shopping and entertainment districts, and the mall. IOW, if anyone intends to rob a white person, they will deliberately go to an area where they can find rich whites, not a black neighborhood.
On the other hand, I have heard reports of purely a hostile nature (assaults/murders, no intent to rob) committed by black people on white people in predominantly black neighborhoods. This would qualify as a hate crime, but never was: apparently, the very *definition* of a hate crime in America must be white-on-black, never black-on-white. This seems to be based on PC politics. None of the foregoing is meant to deny that white racism is alive and well in America.
Any thoughts on this?
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Love the insight “As if savage killers cannot cross the street too!” because it also reveals how racism uses simplistic spatial organizing. In other words, blacks can just be avoided at any time without much effort because they are animals with no sense of control of their physical selves. They need to be directed in public spaces because they lack a coherent sense of how they impact on the white privilidged spatial lives of whites. Over policing by law enforcing is a sympton of this racial spatial (socio-cultural) organizing. Checkmate!
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Best line ever, “you’re a non-threating black guy.” I was flabbergasted. I know it was supposed to be a compliment like all those people who kindly say you’re not really black. I just wondered how many threatening black guys have they really seen.
My friends were all punks in the mid to late 80’s and they all had ripped jeans, mohawks, safety pins everywhere, piercings up the wa-whoo, and I wore three piece suits with a fedora all the time. So much that one of my friends mother friends said in all these pictures you look like you are in charge. Now I sat down to try to digest that.
I will also say about this whole black crime thing, from my own personal experience lots of white kids get away with things because their dad or mom is a cop, judge, or something or they are friends with said person and they drop the name.
In my youth I would go to the mall to buy something my mallrat associates and not friends would follow me. I go into a shop to buy something and they would follow me. They would practically rob the store blind because all the attendants or clerks were following me around. Maybe the suit and fedora was suspicious but those associates or friends of associates were all white. They understood quite easily that if I went into a store they would have free reign.
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@ King Of Trouble; Them giving you back handed compliments and them and your white friends and their white priviledge at your expense. That totally sucks.Your white friends if they got caught would be released on their recognance.
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@ King Of Trouble; I meant recognizance.
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@ King Of Trouble; Did the white women clutch their purses to their chest when they saw you wallking toward them on the street.
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(?) Sorry about punctuation. King Of trouble.
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@ Mary, Back handed comments are my life. Like of course you can cook because you’re black. It makes me want to put the bandana on my head and find a broom. Or the greatest of all compliments. I personally put this one up to WTF you stupid ass B! I was doing an training course to teach English overseas and one of the other students had been to Africa. “They were so ugly not then she looked over and remembered that I was there, and said oh not like american blacks because we breed them to look better. She actually thought she was giving a compliment. Now it is very rare that I ever feel like using violence I personally have never wanted to hit a woman but in that moment I found I had to put my hand down. I don’t know how it got up there and there I was smiling like an idiot because we were in the middle of a sea of white people. I know it comes out as wimpy I really wanted to hit her I really couldn’t understand how someone could say such a stupid thing in the middle of a room with hundred people looking on. All I could say was I was pretty sure that my exceptional good looks came from my forefather extremely good taste in women. It was humiliating and all I can say for that is I had a thought of what if I did hit her. What would it look like, another violent black guy beating up on a white woman.
Another great compliment, I can trust my kids with you because you are not like those other blacks. What other blacks? I really wanted to ask but as my mother said to me “you’re black you need to know when to bite your words.” I still have problems with biting me words. I hate being pushed in any form. Like the stupid cops after I driven all the way from New Hampshire to Chicago, because I had finished college. I hadn’t made it more than 10 minutes in Chiacgo before some dumb ass cop pulled me over. Why, because a black guy fitting my discription in the same make of car. I stuipidly said, yeah because it was the other black guy with New Hampshire license plates that was here. He knew I didn’t believe him so he told me that since I was in Chicago I should have Illinois license plates and he could write me up for that. Again like a silly person who believed in the law(call it battered wife syndrome), I went to report this idiot but all I got was an insincere apology of how he was trying to do me a favor.
As a kid I tried to avoid the hell out of the mall in high school but if my Mom or sister needed something I would go. You would think the most dangerous thing on the earth was a black teenage male. The worst is you know the first thing they are going to say when they caught is we are with him. Kind of like the devil made me do it. The blackie made me do it! That is why they were associates I knew them they went to school with me but no where did I ever really want to hang out with them. Yet, I wasn’t going to fight them on where they went.
Sorry about this long post it’s just venting I guess and I should know better. However, if you swim out in the waters if you’re not careful you’ll find out you went too far. I love Japan but I miss seeing hearing a mass of black people’s voices.
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White women always clutch their purses. I kind of think it is like a nervous tick. I was tiny when I was young I didn’t get into triple digits in weight until I was in my freshman year of College and even then I only weighed 120Ibs.
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This is 2013, but the same things go on that used to get innocent African Americans lynched 50 years ago. Don’t think things have changed that much.
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This from the Jim Crow Museum….. “A bad negro is the most horrible creatue upon the earth, the most brutal and merciless….. Charles H. Smith. A writer at the end of the 1890’s.
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Clifton R. Breckinridge, A contemporary of Charles H. Smith said of the black race. “When it produces a brute, he is the worst and most insatiate brute that exists in human form.
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@King of Trouble; Yes, I feel for black men. I have fear for my young cousins and all the men in my family. Things can go from 0 to 60. I feel for all the brothers in the United Snakes of America.
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@Mary Burrell
”Yes, I feel for black men. I have fear for my young cousins and all the men in my family”
Yes I do too. My little brother is 14 and I don’t want him to stay out for too long fearing some White racist would take his gun and shoot him just for playing outside and exploring the way the way a teenage boy should!
I do worry about Black men in my family too!
However more young Black males are killed by Black youth in the urban areas than by Caucasians but we can’t ignore the fact that people want to kill off our Black males!
I don’t know why people like to target Black males so much?
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At Adeen, I don’t ignore that fact we do kill off ourselves. When I taught in High School it was the first thing I told my kids. Being popular doesn’t matter the ony thing that does is that you are with friends who are building you up. If you have a friend that isn’t helping you to succeed in life prune them like a bad branch. If you aren’t helping your friends to move up look into why. My favorite thing to do was called a stress house where they would get a buch of popsicle sticks and build a structure; I told them it had to support 50Ibs. They were excited because wow it wasn’t history. The groups all got into it sure enough most stuctures couldn’t do it but some did. I would then explain by showing a picture of those structures that did and didn’t work. How the supports worked each one taking the pressure and allowing for the whole structure to take more stress. Then I’d tell them those sticks are your friends each one of you are the supports if it isn’t done right it leaves you weak. Find the friends who are going to help with the weight this world puts on you. This is what we are looking for through history what support went wrong that things failed what support was there for things to go right. This is how my history class works.
@Mary, a 14 year old black boy is in the mist of feeling his manhood which means they need to push against something and experience a grow. I almost put this in white proverbs but the thing I heard a lot growing up with my white friends and adults *Oh, he’s at that time in life where he’s exploring who he is!’ Said to other whites about why that white kid did something like key the car, or leave piss and crap on the teachers chair. (True happening, in which I got blame for by the principal I would have let it slid but they were also incriminating my hispanic friend who was a saint. They were talking about kicking us out and making us pay, I found the two dumb white girls who had been doing it and told them if they didn’t confess I would break my silence. I usually don’t give a crap because if course it was the black boy who did it. Why because everyone has Chocolate envy that is why no kid drinks white milk when their is a choice of chocolate.)
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That’s perfectly convenient of white people, who are some of the most violent people ever to set foot on this planet. Thomas Hobbes actually wrote a book claiming that without the State, white people would murder each other like it was the end of Hamlet.
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Most woman are afraid to walk alone at night period.that was a little off-putting the fear is of being attacked period.being attacked by a white person is just as bad as being attack by a black person I say person becuse women attack people to. But most people don’t fear that. I understand were you coming from though I went for a walk with some black men before and a bunch of other white people pulled me in there house and said what’s wrong with you those men could have murdered you I thought in a public street they could murder me but I’m supposed to follow you in your house ok.
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Whites do not believe that every black man is like that, but they think plenty of them are.
I don’t blame White people for that. I blame the media for highlighting things that racist people like to see and hear for profit. The truth is that we as Black men ARE disproportionately prone to crime because it has been acculturated into a large segment of the population
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Actually this was a war war 1 recruitmeant poster for Americans, the Germans during the 1st world War had the spikes on their helmets. And they portrayed the Germans soldiers as brute killing, raping, pillaging. For the creator of this blog/article you need to brush up on history.
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@ JOEL
Thanks.
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No source for the statistics, that was to be expected.
For white people, being afraid of blacks is a very sane attitude, it’s called the survival instinct. Here’s the story of what happened to a white liberal when she forgot to be afraid of black men. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/joanna-connors-why-i-tracked-down-my-attacker-after-20-years/
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Fillmore
Sane? More like irrational fear supported by confirmation bias.
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Also @ Fillmore there are no stats used in this post.
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“blacks are three times more likely to be physically threatened, harmed or killed because of their race than are whites”
is a statistic…
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@Fillmore
I stand partially correct. You stated “No source for the statistics.” Now please point to the “statistics” as the word is plural.
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Not to mention that those starts are easily verifiable through a google search.
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Well if this bad experience justifies your belief that all black men are bad people, then by your train of thought anyone who had had good experiences with black men would be able to say that all black men are good people.
An argument every bit as silly, but just as logical give your line of reasoning.
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@ P. Lewis
Comment deleted for moderated words and referring to people as animals.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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