Elliot Rodger (1991-2014), an American mass murderer, killed 7 and injured 13 in Isla Vista, California, a seaside college town near the University of California Santa Barbara (UCSB).
On the night of Friday May 23rd 2014, Rodger stabbed to death his two roommates and their friend.
He drove his black BMW to Alpha Phi, a sorority that he said was “full of hot, beautiful blonde girls.” He was going to kill them all, maybe burn down their house. He knocked. No answer. Three women were crossing the street just then. He gunned them down. Two died, one was blonde.
He drove through Isla Vista shooting people, shooting up I.V. Deli Mart, 7-Eleven and a pizza place – glass breaking, people running for cover, people falling and bleeding. He ran down seven people with his car.
The police gave chase, shooting at him. He crashed and shot himself in the head.
He was 22. The last eight years of his life, he said, had been a living hell of virginity, loneliness, jealousy and envy. The last three years were made bearable by getting ready for the day he would get even – with the female gender for not sleeping with him, with young lovers for being happy when he was not.
He was quiet, shy, would barely talk to you or look you in the eye. He kept to himself, seemed to have no friends, male or female.
Like many mass murderers he:
- was narcissistic,
- blamed others,
- could not handle failure,
- was bullied as a child and
- planned the shooting.
His parents had no idea he was plotting mass murder, but they knew something was not right. A doctor had tried to get him to take Risperidone, which is given to people who are schizophrenic, schizoaffective, bipolar or autistic. Rodger refused to take it.
Under American law he had no trouble buying three guns and hundreds of rounds of ammunition.
Add to all that internalized racism. From his 137-page life story:
I came across this Asian guy who was talking to a white girl. The sight of that filled me with rage. I always felt as if white girls thought less of me because I was half-Asian, but then I see this white girl at the party talking to a full-blooded Asian. I never had that kind of attention from a white girl. And white girls are the only girls I’m attracted to, especially the blondes. How could an ugly Asian attract the attention of a white girl, while a beautiful Eurasian like myself never had any attention from them? I thought with rage. I glared at them for a bit, and then decided I had been insulted enough. I angrily walked toward them and bumped the Asian guy aside, trying to act cocky and arrogant to both the boy and the girl.
Seeing White women with “filthy” Black men and “low-class” Latinos also filled him with rage.
He killed two White women and five men of colour. The three he stabbed to death – stabbed! – were Asian men.
See also:
- His YouTube channel
- “My Twisted World” (PDF) – His 137-page life story
- narcissistic personality disorder
- internalized racism
- other mass or serial killers (not counting war, capital punishment or self-defence) and the numbers killed
- The top ten school shooters in the world
- Eric Rudolph – 2 killed
- Wade Michael Page – 6
- The Rocky Mount Killer – 6+
- Elliot Rodger – 7
- Henry Louis Wallace – 11
- James Holmes – 12
- Barack Obama – The incomplete list of children Obama has killed with drones – 97+
- Leonard Wood – Moro massacre – 600+
- George Bush – Katrina – 1,500+
- Osama bin Laden – 9/11 – nearly 3,000
- Christopher Columbus – The Taino genocide – about 3 million
- Adolph Hitler – The Holocaust – 9.3 million+
- Django – fictional
- Bowling for Columbine
So, basically, he was mentally ill, and he refused to take his meds? Well, that turned out well.
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I can only imagine his reaction when a white girl snubbed him for other men of colour. I’ve read a lot of his comments on other forums. He responded to other POC as if they were scum and beneath him and that white, blonde, blue-eyed women were better off with him. He sounds like those sore losers who couldn’t get women. He didn’t want a girlfriend. He didn’t want to be in a relationship. No, he wanted a trophy.
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^ Yeah, but even he couldn’t get with plain, white women. When I mean plain, I mean your average, white women.
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For males of east asian ancestry it is of course a common experience to be the least sexually attractive male around. Still, most of them just accept their destiny. This guy obviously did not, and additionaly he seems to be just crazy.
By the way, being white myself I cannot understand what he likes about blondes, blondes are the least attractive in my opinion. Brunette/dark haired caucasian women or east asian women are obviously much more attractive.
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[…] Read the original: Elliot Rodger | Abagond […]
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Erik Sieven said:
“For males of east asian ancestry it is of course a common experience to be the least sexually attractive male around.
…east asian women are obviously much more attractive.”
@Kiwi:
I don’t know if you remember but we talked about this a few months ago – about how non-white men’s stereotypes influence the way white men approach and percieve non-white women.Erik Sieven just proved my point perfectly.
Anyway, Elliot Rodger had the same way of thinking since he thought being half-white made him better than full-blooded Asian men. Obviously he was delusional and it showed in his mental health.
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They gave me respidol (generic respidone) in jail, it’s an anti-psychotic, i believe. I didn’t like it much but i prolly needed it then.
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^ beating the shit out of nosy-ass people!
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I can see how some white females would see this person as ,”exotic”. He obviously didn’t come across that particular female.
This is what American society produces, when it pushes ideals of beauty in a white supremacist way.
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@Erik Sieven
you wrote
but then the guy wrote
Mr. Rodger was upset that a full Asian guy attracted the attention of a blonde girl more than he did. Your point did not support the matter that actually enraged the guy.
@Kiwi, GR
Despite having a white father, an Anglo surname, a white educational background and anglo upbringing, he was extremely conscious of his non-white background and was often bullied for it. It is obvious that he never exactly passed as white in his mind nor in the minds of his peers. In fact, he felt tainted.
Abagond did not mention about his family members racial and national background, but I think it is a factor, i.e.,
– He was born in England to a famous British father filmmaker and grandfather. I think he felt tainted and unable to carry on the legacy of his paternal ancestors.
– Didn’t seem to have a close relationship with his Malaysian born ethnic Chinese mom
– described his birth and mother’s pregnancy as an “accident”
– Resented his half-brother. I (personally) suspect that part of the reason was because he brother was more easily able to pass as white, was favoured by his Dad and step-Mom and perhaps more likely to pick up the legacy of his paternal ancestors.
(http://dailyentertainmentnews.com/wpgo/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Jazz-Rodger-Elliot-Rodger-brother.jpg)
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@Deborah
YET, he felt considerably inferior to white men.
I actually think that he felt inferior to Asian men as well. HOW? I don’t think he could stand how negative he felt about his own Asian blood, yet at the same time, personally know Asian men, full Asian men no less, that did not feel the same sort of negativity towards their own Asian ancestry, and therefore able to engage with white girls in ways that he could not.
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Jefe:
That picture says it all. His little brother is leaning torwards his father and his father is sitting to the right of his youngest son and not near is older son.
Elliot isn’t even smiling or embracing his little brother.
I’m 100% positive his father is a racist and treated him less than his youngest son. This is why this young man was driven mad.
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@Sondis
I think it was just one among many things that drove him mad, but it seems obviously a factor.
Maybe the father detached himself from his eldest son not only because of his Asian ancestry, but maybe because he reminded him of his ex-wife. In fact, if the son was an accidental pregnancy, his father might feel some resentment towards the son.
But now maybe you can relate somewhat to concerns brought up previously regarding when racist white men have kids with Asian women who suffer from some internalized racism, esp. if they have boys. Imagine being male and growing up with a lifetime of Asian male bashing from both your parents, yet still identifying as being partially of Asian descent. I think it can drive one mad.
I recall the white sportscaster who made a racial comment about Jeremy Lin and then claimed that he was not racist because he was married to an Asian woman. Yeah, right.
Imagine if he had a son AND made those comments about Asian males.
You notice that Elliot Rodger particularly hated Asian males (enough to stab 3 of them in cold blood). Why? Where did he learn that from?
He told himself continuously that he must be better than them because he was part white, but yet he felt so tainted, not being able to enjoy what white guys do.
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@Kiwi to respond to your comment in the Open Thread
No, I don’t think it is weird. I also think they are factors too.
Elliot had 2 other unique situational factors
– Asian male roommates – people he had been taught all his life to denigrate
– a white father, who enjoyed social privileges which he felt he would never be able to enjoy
– a half-brother, whom he felt would be able to enjoy more of those privileges than he ever would, and received preferential attention from his father.
But both of those themes (denigration of Asian men and the belief that whites deserve more social privileges) ran damn close to my own family experience. And I personally had some of the same social outcast problems as a teenager as these two guys. That is why I get the creeps when I think of these two cases.
If only I had had access to guns . . .
No, I am not going there.
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No one remarked about this?
I think it is a dangerous combination in the USA – Racism (both internal and external) and easy access to guns.
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@Kiwi,
re: your comment
I think it can go both ways.
Remember when Malcolm X said his dark skinned father favoured the lighter complexioned children, but his light skinned mother favoured the darker children and was tougher on Malcolm?
Besides this, there are other factors (besides complexion or features) which may cause a white parent to favour one of their children more than the others, but which can still be related to race. It is not as simple as you put it.
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@GR,
Have you ever lived outside the USA?
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Kiwi said:
And Jefe replied:
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Kiwi said:
And Jefe replied:
Wow. It can go in a VARIETY of ways in multi-racial families, because of course the children can look black, white or different kinds of Asian depending on how their individual genes express themselves.
It also depends on which country you are, too, and what other people think you are, or WANT to say you look like.
It leads to all kinds of odd goings on within families.
As for my sibling who could pass for white, there are particular punishments, rejections and burdens reserved for her, and her alone.
(I haven’t read the thread in full: pushed for time at the moment.)
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I read Abagond’s post and noticed this:
That detail wasn’t made plain in previous reports…
Murder is murder.
Yet, Elliot Rodger must have put down his guns and brought out his knife to personally attack these men for a reason.
Stabbing is “rarer” than shooting, and to my mind it’s more personal.
I take a different view from the one that says that death by strangulation or beating are more intimate forms of killing.
For me, the penetrative nature of stabbling the Asian men –in particular — speaks of the psycho-sexual place their masculinity+race held for Elliot Rodger, and his desire to SEE and FEEL their deaths.
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Btw:
What’s so funny about my sister’s life, George?
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George Ryder:
“Everyone of sound mind should own a gun, it’s a good thing.
Maybe this kid wouldn’t have been able to kill as many as he did…”
The problem with this statement is, who gets to determine, whom is of sound mind.
White people get to decide in a white supremacist/ racist way.
White people have always tried to keep guns out of law bidding black people hands, so we as black people, can’t protect ourselves from their terrorism.
Even a law abiding , black person with a gun permit, that shoots a white person that is attacking them, will get prosecuted and their claim of “stand your ground” thrown out of the court.
We have seen this play out 1000’s of times in America.
How many white cops that kill, beat and harass black people by abusing their power?
These white racist cops are deemed to be, ” of sound mind” yet they are crazy as a loon!
You can’t judge this persons sanity, without judging all these other white people that go out and kill people, just because they have a gun permit and use the stand your ground laws to excuse their lust to kill!
Not to mention, all the other white people that go out and kill people in mass, you’ve seen the headlines.
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But WHAT IS HILARIOUS about it, exactly?
Other commenters talk about the different treatment meted out to different-appearing members of the same family, so what is so very, very funny about this?
Explain, because I’d really like to laugh along too.
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Share the joke with everyone. Don’t keep it to white self.
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@ sondis
I have a feeling George comes here to play.
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@ GR,
Yah, you sound messed up.
And, no stupid — I wasn’t even referring specifically to special punishments OUR PARENTS reserved for her.
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It’s still not funny and I still ain’t laughing…
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Please! We have to stop making excuses for white people, especially hateful white adolescents. When blacks or other POC (of any age) kill just ‘one person’ we’re not given any excuse at all by the white-dominant society, but when whites kill one or 100 innocent people there’s something mentally wrong with him or her. Bullshit! Elliot Rodger was just a spoiled f#*%ing HATER!
I can recall reading the cover of TIME magazine in the wake of the Columbine High School massacre and the caption read: “THE MONSTERS NEXT DOOR. WHAT MADE THEM DO IT?” In the wake of the Nicole Simpson-Ron Goldman murder TIME magazine had a darkened frontal mugshot of OJ Simpson with the caption reading: “AN AMERICAN TRAGEDY”. This takes us back to the double standard issue. Hopefully, I’m not out of context with the post. Peace, I’m out!!
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Bulanik:
You’re coming to this conclusion just now?
I believe that 99.9% of white people, come to this blog to “play”.
This is why i never really speak, “to” them but “at” them.
I don’t take them seriously in terms of them, coming here to learn and listen.
Their main purpose is only for us as black people and people of color are to always, listen to them and do what they say.
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No, Sondis. Not just NOW!
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Hey, don’t talk about my family like you know them.
It’s stupid.
LOL!
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And then find my sister’s hardships HILARIOUS.
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Really?
You are not only messed up then, but also clueless.
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You don’t even understand what you are “chuckling” about.
LOL! LOL!
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…love watching how a joker can keep diggin’ long after mouth is stuck in foot…
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The guy was a psychopath with nearly zero social skills who myopically externalized his failures when they were quite obviously self-inflicted. It seems a rather perverse exercise to examine his rationalizations in a serious manner, as they’re the rantings of a person with severe mental illness.
From what I’ve read, the younger brother was resented because, not being a psychopath with zero social skills, he was able to readily get along with others.
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Kiwi,
“It pains me to say it, but I find it believable that white parents treat their whiter looking children better than their more nonwhite looking children. Even if it’s only subconscious, the psychological effects over a lifetime are cumulative and can be deeply traumatic.”
I’m embarrassed to admit that I worry my child might come out looking too white.
I hope my awareness of how ridiculous this is will keep me from damaging my kid.
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There are millions of people like this guy in America. They just don’t all take it this far. They come in different races and complexions, but all fall under the same umbrella.
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@ryder legion called it although my win/loss ratio is unenviable… i was locked up for mostly petty stuff along the drunken fisticuffs motif with a strong subtext of bad attitude
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Wow. I never heard about this at all. I am at a loss of words at the moment.
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@ryder actually i posted 90% of my criminal record elsewhere on this blog for some reason i forget why. It is easy to look up on the web.
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Actually ryder, for the record, i have never drawn a custodial sentence over 21 days or so. The time i was on risperdol was in lieu of bail on charges for simple assault which the complainant dropped eventually.
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At that point in my life i was blacked out during the worst 2 fights including the one that led up to that stay at the berks county hotel
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@ George Ryder
The “if only all the good guys had guns, they could stop the bad guys”-argument only works if people were divided clearly in good and bad guys and you could identify them by looking them in the face. Hm…
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@Legion: I like that about noisy people getting the isht beat out of them. We were on the same page.
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Elliott Rodger was a just a societal loser. And he took it out on other people. He could have had a girlfriend but he wanted what “white” America deems attractive and because he was unsuccessful in attracting one of these types of females that he perceived as the top of the crop, he just went bananas. That and his Asian self. Self hate and a warped perception of what it means to be acceptable in this society drove him mad. And it’s possible as other commenters have posted his father probably showed the brother who looked more white the affection. So that is a jacked up situation.
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@ryder that’s called getting arrested by the police
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@Kiwi,
If you actually read the guy’s “manifesto”, it’s clearly the work of a deranged person who never grasped social norms despite years of therapy and the ongoing assistance of trained professionals. This wasn’t a rational person who just one day snapped.
That’s why I say that attempting to evaluate his beliefs at face value is a perverse effort.
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if they have your license you are ‘detained’ ie not free to go.
a ride in a police car to the station is arrested dude. handcuffs is another sure sign your arrested!
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@Bulanik in your response to GR
If he thinks the notion is hilarious then he is truly a scary being finding no remorse in spreading hurt and pain. I can just imagine him teasing your sister about dumping her family and telling her to go ahead and pass as white and then laughing about it.
And then he feels safer carrying a gun. I do not feel safer when “messed up and clueless” people carry guns.
And regarding Elliot Rodger, even if all the victims had carried guns, it would not have prevented the any of the deaths (with the possible remote exception of the convenience store episode).
I live in a place where private citizens do carry guns. I cannot put into words the peace of mind that brings.
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^ What you said was *REALLY* scary.
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@Peanut, Kiwi,
Yeah, I bet he got it from both all parents, his Dad, his Mom, his stepmom, even his siblings, plus the media, the culture, the education and the people around him. The difference with Elliot Rodger was the manner in which he internalized. I bet his parents never had the “race talk” with him as they were blind to their own racism.
Just look at what he learned
– whites have special social privileges and deserve them simply for being white (which he probably learned from both his mom and his dad)
– he did not enjoy those privileges and believed it had something to do with not being quite white
– Blacks and Latinos are scum
– He hated Asian men most of all.
Yet he was a college student driving his own BMW – he had privileges, but it meant nothing to him as he could not figure out where he fit on the social / racial hierarchy. “White is right”, yet he got bullied by whites. So what does that make him?
I think the white mass murderers who were bullied growing up did not racialize that bullying experience, ie, thinking the problem had to do with race. But Elliot Rodger did. In that way, it has some things in common with Seung-Hui Cho.
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This may sound mean, but I’m not going to apologize for it. He’s better off dead. I’m just sorry he had to take innocent people with him.
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@Bulanik
Oh yes, that was very personal. It can take several stabbings to kill the person and you have to touch the person. He knew the 3 stabbing victims, lived with 2 of them and the other was spending the night. And if he did it while they were sleeping, it is likely that they woke up and saw who was stabbing them to death.
Very personal.
The other victims probably did not see who was killing them.
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@ Mary Burrell
Nosy people, not noisy. As in poking their noses too far into people’s affairs.
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@ Kiwi
This may sound cynical, but if Rodger had stabbed and mutilated three Asian girls, they probably would also have received somewhat more coverage.
It’s a difficult thing, as a person of colour, to live a life of social awareness but not let it make you negative and bitter at one’s core. What you said wasn’t cynical; it’s a totally reasonable prediction of likely media reportage. To be sure: “If it bleeds it leads”, but only if the blood belonged to the worthy and the valued.
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@ Mary Burrell
Of course, perhaps I’m being pedantic again. Maybe that was just a typo of yours. 🙂
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That photo of the the three Rodger men is …, well, it seems to speak volumes.
The father and the young son are in one world and E.R. is in quite another.
“Worlds apart.”
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Kiwi said: And the first image I got for an Asian man was this:[picture link]
*Groan* If I stared at the picture for 60 minutes I still wouldn’t laugh. All I’d be thinking about is the white production that brought the image to fruition, and thought it was just so damn funny.
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Misogyny and racism aren’t really all that vital here. He was a narcissist and psychopath and if those two vices didn’t fill the void then something else would. It wasn’t sexism or racism which made him kill, it was his lack of mental health.
To try and hijack this tragedy to push an agenda as the feminists have done, in order to try to associate him with the ‘enemy’ ie MRAs or PUAs or the ‘manosphere’, is just a cynical exercise. Some people are doing the same with race as well. And with the gun laws too. In this case the gun laws would have made little difference either way. He would have been able to get a gun if he wanted and no ‘good guy with a gun’ would have been likely to be able to stop him. He was so desperate to kill he stabbed people. A gun just made things easier.
Something went terribly wrong here but it wasn’t American society’s prejudices. If racism and sexism was so rampant then there would be tragedies like this every day. In fact, they are fairly rare, even in the trigger happy States. The exceptional nature of them means that the perpetrator had problems way beyond unfortunate but commonly shared prejudices.
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@ George Ryder
Yeah…..I don’t see anything funny about this, either. Knock it off.
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I really don’t think Elliot Rodger leaves us much mining ground for racial insights…Another (mostly) white imbecile whose feeble mind couldn’t handle all the conflicting notions of entitlement & inadequacy, so he spends years gearing up for a killing spree. Obviously, he hated women & had a real problem with “full-blooded” Asian men but in the end, I think he was simply a defective individual who was no good to begin with. I’m sure many evil people are victims of conditioning or circumstance, but sometimes our species produces garbage & all we can do is hope that natural selection will take care of that sooner than later. In this case, natural selection was late to the party, as usual.
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Kiwi, re:
Indeed. Americans will only remember that he killed 2 white women (and possibly some others, whose details they will forget).
But I do think that Asian males in particular have a dehumanization to the next level. Well at least, their lives are at least as dehumanized as black men.
I think we can definitely trace it straight back to the g00kism of the wars in Asia and back further to the expulsion period (“not a chin@m@n’s chance” era).
What is the expression nowadays?
– Asian male bashing (by whites, Asian women, and even internally by Asian males. by everyone in fact)
– bullying / hazing of Asian males
– No empathy for the brutal mutilation of Asian males
Has there been no progress since Vincent Chin? Hasn’t that taught us a lesson?
America has never felt remorse over the brutal killings it has done to Asian males for the past 160 years. Abagond has always talked about the “race talk” that black parents need to do with their boys, but there is one needed, albeit a different one, that Asian parents need to do with their boys. Or are they simply blinded by the “honorary white”, “model minority” and “perpetual foreigner” propositions?
But as the article asked, “Where is the Asian-American media on this?” Have they been silent?
and I also ask, “What about the parents of the slain boys?” Why is the media only capturing the families of the other victims?
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Indeed, he was simply echoing white racial attitudes. If whites need someone to tell them what current white racial attitudes are, they only need to read Elliot Rodger’s writings. They think they are the racial attitudes of a sick young man, but I think they are the racial attitudes of a sick society.
I think that not many people empathize with Rodger THAT much. You might find a few, but I think people mostly think he was simply sick.
But contrast him with Seung-Hui Cho, whom Americans thought was not quite human.
Do you think it would have been different if the perpetrator was a Eurasian man named Elliot Lo with a white mother? But, I suspect that his target victims in that case might have been white males – ones who may have bullied him. In that case, it might be more similar to Seung-Hui Cho.
Interesting that Rodger did not target the white males that actually bullied and taunted him, or his father, who probably had a role in the Asian male bashing.
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So it all boils down to a particularly perverse form of self-hatred. If only he wasn’t encumbered by the Asian half of his heritage – and not even the more desirable East Asian (Japanese, Korean, etc.) heritage – nope, he had the bad luck of being born to a Malaysian (Southeast Asian).
It explains why he didn’t bother targeting his bullies or his father – 9 times out of 10 you don’t turn on the people you idolize and seek validation from. Instead, you find scapegoats to vent your rage and frustration. And his roommates paid the price. The other victims, too. The signals society sent regarding how he should think and act, he absorbed those pretty well by all counts.
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@Mack Lyons,
Even though his mother was originally from Malaysia, I believe she was of Chinese descent – she has a Hokkien name (Hokkien refers to the southern Fujian dialect).
However, I find it a bit disturbing when you suggest that East Asian ancestry is somehow more desirable than SE Asian ancestry (which is “bad luck”). Is this your personal belief, or a belief that you think Rodger had?
I believe he targeted men of Chinese descent because he himself was of Chinese descent and he lived with them and knew them personally.
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^ I also read articles that mentioned Rodger’s mother is Chinese and born in Malaysia.
@ Mack Lyons:
Interesting. Upon meeting me, white people automatically assumed I was Chinese. However, when I corrected them, I would get, “Oh. You’re a Filipino?” It wasn’t what they said, but the tone in which they said it that made me think something was wrong with being Filipino. I’ve actually heard Filipinos, Vietnamese, Cambodians, etc. referred to as the dirty Asians.
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Jefe,
You should read Rodger’s writing if you haven’t already. Race had little to nothing to do with his problems. The guy simply had zero capacity to engage with other people.
Ultimately, the man was completely incapable of understanding the basic mechanics of human relationships.
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^ Yes, Leigh, I get that.
But I didn’t understand how Mack was applying it in the Elliot Rodger case. It seems that he is suggesting from a white racist viewpoint (ie, one that Rodger may have held), it is more desirable to be encumbered by having East Asian ancestry rather than SE Asian ancestry. Or that going by how whites think, he would have felt better about himself if he saw himself as, say, part Korean rather that part Indonesian or something?
In any case, I bet he saw himself as part Chinese and he saw his victims as Chinese. I am not sure that he saw any difference in ethnicity there. Or maybe being of Chinese descent via Malaysia is “dirtier” than of Chinese descent via, say, Taiwan? I would doubt he thought about that.
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To peanut,
Actually I do doubt it. There are lots of prejudiced people, sexist, racist, xenophobic, anti Semitic etc. However, very few of them go on solo shooting and stabbing sprees.
The irony was that he was a rich, good looking guy with celebrity connections. If he hadn’t been such a weirdo he could have got all the blondes he wanted.
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George Ryder
These shooters are total psychopaths.
True. And that pretty much wraps up the story.
& why are they always white kids? like some kind of biological deficiency or something…
Why? Important question. You can be sure researchers are analyzing these crimes, and you can be sure the results of the analysis will be given fair consideration by whites.
None of the standard social pathologies afflicted this killer’s life. What twisted his mind? Seems to have been a fatal case of insecurity.
It will also be noted that violent crimes like this are rare. The number of these killers and the number of their victims are lost in the sauce of annual homicide figures.
now imagine if these shooters were black kids. OMG. the media would blow it up so big and cause so much hate it’d send us right back into the Jim Crow era.
Yeah, well, the fact is, black kids are shooting and killing each other in staggering numbers. One-eighth of the population commits over half of all murders, and the large majority of black killers are young black males.
Black murderers kill about 7,000 victims a year. Most shootings involve one death, sometimes two, occasionally three. But too few to qualify for the tag of “mass-murder.” Nevertheless, the annual total is huge. Slow and steady wins the race.
Of course the phenomenon of black murder is studied too, but within the segment of the black community from which most murderers spring, there seems to be little interest in what the community itself should do. Frankly, in the black community overall, there seems to be limited interest in solutions.
There’s a general unwillingness to engage in self-examination, or engage in a deep examination of black culture. No willingness to admit the problems may be self-inflicted.
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Kiwi:
Appeal to authority. How is that relevant?
Kiwi:
It’s perverse to examine his rationalizations at face value because he’s so obviously deranged. I did find the story fascinating to read though.
Ally:
This, precisely.
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George Ryder:
Keanu Reeves is considered a “white guy” by the general population. at least by those who don’t know any better.
Don’t know any better? What does that mean? What are others supposed to “know”?
What does “knowing” mean?
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Sb,
“Why? Important question. You can be sure researchers are analyzing these crimes, and you can be sure the results of the analysis will be given fair consideration by whites.”
Which segments of the white community will fairly consider the provided analysis? Do you think consideration and self-reflection will occur in the segment of the white community that perpetuates these mass shootings?
How long do we give the white community to agree on a course of action before we decide they aren’t really interested?
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Elliott Rodgers maybe dead and gone but there are many others that are just like him.
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@ Randy
You should read Rodger’s writing if you haven’t already. Race had little to nothing to do with his problems. The guy simply had zero capacity to engage with other people.
Ultimately, the man was completely incapable of understanding the basic mechanics of human relationships.
Randy, using Rodger’s writings as a source for grasping the full scope of what was going on with him, will definitely be lacking, don’t you think? As you said, Rodger was not rational or self aware enough, to arrive at useful and non destructive methods of conducting his own life. I don’t know that he was a psychopath (that is the word de jour these days) but I agree that he did externalize (as in, he looked for scapegoats) problems that were, in fact coming from him (though this view should be nuanced, I think. After all, we do not come into the world by ourselves: we are born of our parents and then raised by them. Society has a convenient social contract that if a person errs in a major way in adulthood, the whole blame must fall on the now adult person. I understand that society has to draw a line somewhere but many ills are planted in people during childhood.)
So, if Rodger greatly lacked self awareness, we wouldn’t expect him to be super insightful about his own life. We wouldn’t expect him, in his own writings, to ever use the word “colourism”. We wouldn’t expect him to arrive at an understanding that an odd, variant of the popular understanding of racism was taking place in his own family.
Randy, you say this higher up in the scroll:
The guy was a psychopath with nearly zero social skills who myopically externalized his failures when they were quite obviously self-inflicted. It seems a rather perverse exercise to examine his rationalizations in a serious manner, as they’re the rantings of a person with severe mental illness.
Initially, you do say that we can’t rely only on Rodger to understand Rodger but later on you encourage a reading of Rodger, for the purpose of understanding that, in your view: there was no race element. Contradiction?
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I said:
We wouldn’t expect him to arrive at an understanding that an odd, variant of the popular understanding of racism was taking place in his own family.
To begin telling the stories of racism within white-mixed families is not something that is on the media radar, or the media consciousness. White-mixed families are used ideologically to depict the angelic goodness of whites.
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To Mary Burrell
“Elliott Rodgers maybe dead and gone but there are many others that are just like him.”
Are you expecting a plague of narcissistic racist misogynists to go on mad killing sprees sometime soon?
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@ George Ryder
You’ve had it in full by now, for sure, but, yeah what Bulanik mentioned wasn’t funny.
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@George Ryder: You are disgusting, Bulanik’s story about her sister was not something to be made fun of. I don’t know why you are even on this forum except to be a clown. You are STUPID!
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@Legion, in your response to another commenter
Thank you for picking this up.
Indeed, now you can see why one might choose not to discuss a serious topic with someone with these kind of logic / reasoning skills.
Even if the entire 137 page manifesto had no mention at all about race we can still observe that
– his own father did not “know” that he was racist (implying that he now thinks he was)
– he recorded himself saying it was disgusting to witness attractive blonde white women being friendly with full Asian men after which bumped himself aggressively into an Asian man
– he recorded himself saying that he was only “half white” which makes him different from other white people but also different from full Asian men.
And then
– personally selects and stabs / mutilates to death 3 Asian men that he knows personally and has contact with and whom he admitted he was repulsed by
– next goes straight to a sorority to hunt down blonde white girls to shoot and kill
Can we still observe all of this and believe race was not involved?
Of course, racism does not justify any of the violence and behavior, and the guy was clearly not mentally well, but how can we say race was not involved?
And of course, 99.99% of people suffering from this kind of racism will not select anti-social violent and deadly methods to resolve their internal conflicts, but I do believe that a large percentage of people do suffer from similar (internal AND external) racial conflicts and have to find ways to deal and manage it. I already mentioned over a year ago on this blog that I was particularly concerned about the mental health of boys from certain families with white fathers and Asian mothers who bash Asian men, WELL before Elliot Rodger appeared on the national news. And lo and behold, this occurred. And although (as I said) 99.99% of these boys will not develop this extreme level of anti-social behavior, I hope it is a wake-up call to those families that there is some mental health issue that is exacerbated by the internal racism that the parents create for their kids and they may need to raise their self-awareness. I have read of, and personally know of many of these cases for the past couple decades.
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ugh … George! Chapelle is a buffoon who practices a brand of humour that placates and soothes his idiotic white audience and foolish people of colour. This was discussed on the Colbert thread. Look, you are not the first person to stick their foot in their mouth. I certainly have done it (it’s a human foible), so I won’t judge you. But damn, don’t keep it up now.
As for othering people because you don’t know them in real life. Cut it with that sh!t. You do know the people commenting are real humans. Okay done.
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solesearch:
Which segments of the white community will fairly consider the provided analysis?
The segments that hold the roles of doing something about it, such as the mental health segment and the law enforcement segment.
Do you think consideration and self-reflection will occur in the segment of the white community that perpetuates these mass shootings?
Very likely the parents of the troubled perpetrators may spot the signs and do something that either intervenes before the psychopathic moment. The perpetrators generally have families with whom they usually live. They’re usually not the offspring of totally dysfunctional, delusional parents. So, there’s a good chance for heading off trouble.
How long do we give the white community to agree on a course of action before we decide they aren’t really interested?
Probably five minutes, or less. But that’s you.
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Did we confirm that Elliot Rodger was an American? I could not find the answer in anything I looked up and he did not mention it in his manifesto.
After all, he was born in the UK to a British father and a Malaysian born mother (who may have become British at one stage). His younger brother was American born, but do we know when (or even if) the older brother became a naturalized American?
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George Ryder:
Not everyone knows he’s half asian, did you know that by chance?
That’s what i meant…
You initially wrote — “for those who don’t know any better…” which is a phrase with an entirely different meaning. A phrase that implies some kind of ignorance, rather than not knowing a factoid.
As for myself, I’ve always thought Reeves had an interesting look, but till now I’d never given any thought to his gene pool. Knowing what I know now, my opinion of his look is unchanged.
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^ 🙂
it’s a semantical ambiguity. Was he an American who killed. Was he a person on American soil who killed. Et cetera …
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Did I actually say that my family were “hard” on one child in the family because outside of the family unit everyone thought she was white?
No.
***********
What I said this (in relation to how things can work out within families that are racialized):
George Ryder thought I was saying that the rest of my family INFLICTED special cruelties on one child. He thought wrong and he thought mean.
Nothing went down like that!
My sister isn’t the only member of our immediate family who others might or might have, mistaken for “white”. She wouldn’t be “lonely” in that regard…
Loving, astute parents can educate, protect and prepare their children only up to a degree.
The rest, though, the individual child has to deal with by her- or himself when they meet the outside world that chews them up and spits them out.
This can affect, and hurt, EVERYONE in the family when they see how each child is cut and burned, in different ways by racialization, violence, exclusion, etc.
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There’s no more to say on the subject.
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At this point, I’ve read so many comments that I disagree with I won’t even try to quote them and respond point by point. I’ll just respond to the plethora of bad thinking going on. This idea seems to be at the heart of it all:
“Rogers cannot have been a racist because he was a mentally unstable narcissist.”
Can anyone really be this misguided? At the very root of racism is narcissism! Racism is simply a powerful collective system by which one can admire oneself above others. A persons inadequacies do not disprove their racism, they rather reveal and exacerbate it.
If I don’t fit in socially, there is nothing to say that my response to not fitting in is to look down upon people of color. There are a wide range of responses that I might take, but if I turn immediately to racism, then it is probably because I always believed in it on some level in the first place. Most mental illness involves lowering ones inhibitions, or heightening ones suspicions, paranoia, and anxiety, not turning you from a hippie into a klansman. Sure, there are some severe mental illnesses that may do that, but most will not alter one’s core beliefs.
But also there is a broad assumption that mental illness is to blame for bad choices while bad choices are never to blame for mental illness. How much of what we label as “sickness” is really just cultivated, nurtured, and concentrated, bad attitude, action, and anger? Maybe people don’t fit into society because they are selfish, childish and greedy. Maybe hating people is as bad for your brain as it is for your blood pressure.
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Just read through his 137 page manifesto.
Yes, there are more misogynistic elements, to be sure, but racist elements are riddled all through it, especially internalized racism.
I understand a lot of it – I had a lot of the same problems as a teenager, some of it even worse (eg, violent bullying). And my parents also told me that it was my brother that was going to turn out OK (I was the problem).
It is interesting (I do not mean that in a good way) that he wrote his plans in such detail and posted videos too. It’s like he wanted to leave a legacy.
It seems his parents just tossed him back and forth and did not want to spend so much time with him. They apparently didn’t like him and found him to be trouble.
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@Bulanik,
Yes, what GR said was mean (and to me, rather creepy too).
He is one who would laugh and terrorize your sister and not even realize what he is doing (or maybe do it just for fun). But as we know, there are a lot of people like that.
I am glad you felt comfortable to express that pain, however briefly.
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But you see, GR,
that is not at all what she said.
It leaves an uncomfortable feeling that you would jump to that scenario in your mind when nothing of the sort was stated.
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@ SB (aka half truth or liar)
“Black murderers kill about 7,000 victims a year.”—Correction “Each year, roughly 7,000 blacks are murdered; 94 per cent of the time, the murderer is another black person.
Read more at http://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/african-americans-need-to-confront-black-on-black-crime-21424/#rLdstdkKByE2u2Sa.99
and if this is not legit enough for you Pick one:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Black+murderers+kill+about+7%2C000+victims+a+year.&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS592US592&oq=Black+murderers+kill+about+7%2C000+victims+a+year.&aqs=chrome..69i57.1772j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8
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King
Agreed. Though I am kindly marveling at the double standards displayed by some. It is quite interesting how “mentally unstable” is the theme.
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Ha! I see what you mean Sharina!
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I have to say this part is most disturbing to me.
“His parents had no idea he was plotting mass murder, but they knew something was not right. A doctor had tried to get him to take Risperidone, which is given to people who are schizophrenic, schizoaffective, bipolar or autistic. Rodger refused to take it.”
The go to response of people these days seems to be “put your kid on drugs.” As if drugs will solve every issue. I don’t really see drugs as a means to fix this kids state of mind or any other kid out there waiting to let loose his anger and rage on others.
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@ Jefe
Aside from the need of parents to drug up their kids. I have to say the ability of this individual to get a gun with such ease is disturbing. Just imagine how many more are out in the world in a sleeper stage with guns. It makes you wonder how long it will be before they snap.
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@ Sharina
I think if you subscribe to the “chemical brain” theory, that everything that you do is just the result of good or bad chemical reaction. Nobody ever makes bad choices, they only make “unhealthy” choices. If that were so, it follows that all you would need to achieve utopia is the right set of drugs in sufficient quantity. This would stop all war, racism, and crime.
But if you believe that conscious beings actually make moral choices, then it goes beyond just chemicals and drug injections.
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King
For those that subscribe to the “chemical brain” theory I have to ask… “How’s that working out?” LOL.
“But if you believe that conscious beings actually make moral choices, then it goes beyond just chemicals and drug injections.”—Though I notice that the race of the individual determines all to well whether the “chemical brain” theory will apply or whether that individuals is a conscious being. In this case Elliot’s privilege seems to have afforded him the “chemical brain” excuse.
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sb,
“The segments that hold the roles of doing something about it, such as the mental health segment and the law enforcement segment.”
and these segments aren’t the same ones that are supposed to fairly consider and do something about violence perpetrated against and by black ppl? Why don’t they?
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sb,
“Very likely the parents of the troubled perpetrators may spot the signs and do something that either intervenes before the psychopathic moment. The perpetrators generally have families with whom they usually live. They’re usually not the offspring of totally dysfunctional, delusional parents. So, there’s a good chance for heading off trouble.”
So you don’t think the parents of white mass murderors have anything to do with their kids wanting to murder ppl? Nothing wrong with how they were raised? What makes you think these parents aren’t totally dysfunctional and delusional? Their kids are planning to shoot up schools and malls and they don’t know it. How delusional and dysfunctional does your family have to be to not notice?
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How very observant of you.
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@King
Nah. I only commented on what I’m sure others saw a mile away.
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solesearch:
and these segments aren’t the same ones that are supposed to fairly consider and do something about violence perpetrated against and by black ppl? Why don’t they?
As Sharina pointed out with her link about the rate at which blacks commit homicide…
http://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/african-americans-need-to-confront-black-on-black-crime-21424/#rLdstdkKByE2u2Sa.99
…it’s obvious when the black rate is roughly 8 times the white rate, there are some extraordinarily profound pathologies in the black community.
The black homicide rate is mind-boggling. Outrageous. So, obviously, even though it’s been said over and over — the social pathologies undermining the black community are fatherlessness, illegitimacy, low academic achievement, substance abuse and high levels of violence — blacks aren’t trying to change for the better.
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OFF TOPIC: Black-on-black crime.
I fail to see what it has to do with Elliot Rodger. He was not Black nor were any of his victims. It is a standard White racist deflection.
That trope, even the bit about Blacks are not doing anything about it, is covered here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/the-black-on-black-crime-argument/
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@ jefe
I think it’s a belief that he held and it was also a factor in choosing his initial targets.
Hence why I mentioned the above. That had to have played a role in his self-loathing and the subsequent killings.
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@Sharina,
Yeah, we will see it again.
Yes, I am also concerned also about
– the theory of using drugs to treat internalized racism (and misogyny)
– easy availability of guns (although his first 3 victims did not die from guns)
I live in a place where private citizens do not own guns. Cannot express how much peach of mind that brings. If the “bad” guys don’t have guns, then the “good” guys don’t need guns.
And I might even go as far as to admit that uncontrolled internalized racism may even be a type of mental illness, but it comes from racism. And I am not advocating using drugs to cure this type of mental illness.
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@Mack Lyon
I think he saw himself as of Chinese descent and saw his victims that way (same ethnicity as his victims). I don’t think it is appropriate to believe or conclude that he assigned himself to one of those “dirty” ethnic groups. I am sure if a white person asked him, he would say his mom was ethnic Chinese.
His mom’s family is from Penang, which is a majority Chinese city like Singapore. I lived there for 5 months before and have been back several times.
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Sb
Can you read? Do you know that 6 and 8 are two different numbers? Do you often mix up words, numbers, and quotes as you attempt to inform us of your half truths?
Don’t bother to answer. I can gather the truth based solely on your comments thus far.
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@Jefe
Call me a skeptic, but I personally find it hard to see Elliott as “crazy.” He was sane enough to write a 137 page bio. He was sane enough to plan this. He was sane enough to know right from wrong, so I find it hard to insert the “crazy” factor like society seems to want to do.
But there is another underlining problem here. I just can’t put my finger on it just yet. Hopefully it will come to me and I can better elaborate.
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@Kiwi,
I did see that post before (about his castigation of Asian men for being full Asian), but I could not find it afterwards. Thank you for reminding us (and those commenters who insisted that race had nothing to do with it).
And Yes, You see Eurasian faces on health /beauty / fashion magazines across SE Asia and Japan, and on TV and billboards in HK, Taiwan, etc. I do not doubt that Rodger picked up on that somewhere.You even see some effect of it in the USA and UK (where Eurasians / Hapas are sometimes chosen to represent Asians).
But I think that you must realize that that concept of half-white Asians thinking that they are somehow better or more attractive than full Asians, or in some cases, even whites is very much a double edged sword. I personally know Eurasian models / VJs / entertainers from HK and SG and have been following this phenomenon closely for at least 15 years.
The tendency for Asians to prefer to see themselves portrayed as mixed European (by using Eurasians / Mestizos / Indos) esp. for beauty products or fashion models), esp. for ones that cross international boundaries (for some “Pan-Asian” effect) reflects a few things.
1) Asians find certain Eurasian type looks attractive – fueling whole industries in skin care / skin lightening, eyelid surgery, hair colour and form, fashion, fine dining and other glamourous activities, etc. (Yes, I agree there is an internalized racism factor here.)
2) this stuff (Westernized looks) and Westernized cultural symbols and icons are sometimes marketed to them by using actual Eurasians in particular, often in place of whites – Asians can imagine themselves as being somewhat “westernized” without being an actual white person by using Eurasian images.
3) Mixed Asian-Europeans look more “cosmopolitan” to them, and marketers might prefer that image to market their international brands.
It works better marketing western things to Asians as opposed to marketing Asian things to Westerners. Westerners prefer to use westernized Asian women with a white man or “yellow-face” or its equivalent. I never see specifically targeting the use of Eurasians to market stuff in the West. If they use a Eurasian, that person will be playing the image of an Asian, or an exotic white person.
4) Mixed Asian-Euro people are not assigned to a particular country, and it might be safer for marketers to use across national boundaries. For example, a Korean will be labelled Korean, and would be less effective marketing a product in SE Asia or China as opposed to a Korean-German person who will be labelled “mixed” and less likely to offend local sensibilities in other places.
This might sound all nice and fancy, but its effect is not all good for Eurasians in particular and for society in general.
1. White people still don’t see them as white.
At best, they are exotic, but sometimes they often categorized with other “orientals”, esp. in the West. That is not always a good thing, as many of the Asian stereotypes get applied to them (and even stuff like bullying, Model Minority, bamboo ceiling, typecasting, etc.) unless they can project a white image in the minds of others (which of course, some attempt to do).
–> Even Elliot Rodger. who might simply be “exotic looking” to many whites felt compelled to dye his hair blond to appear more white. He also felt compelled to denigrate full Asian men both in his mind and in his social interaction. Both of these reflect NEGATIVE effects of internalized racism.
By the way, did you notice that he did not say much about Asian females? He hated blonde women in particular. I wonder if he had any viewpoint upon seeing blonde white men with Asian females.
2. Asians don’t see them as Asian
Even though Asians like to see themselves portrayed with some Eurasian look, they don’t see actual Eurasians as Asian (some exceptions in SE Asia, in those places which have had Eurasians / Mestizos for several generations – there, “colourism” may be more a problem). At best they are something exotic, but often they get categorized with other Westerners. That is not *always* a good thing.
–> even if many are in demand for areas like health/beauty/fashion, etc., they will get excluded from many other areas because of their racial background. The vast majority of people cannot enter the beauty field and stay there all their lives- people need to have opportunities in other areas.
And I have heard about how many got bullied growing up where they attend local schools. Most parents might want them to receive a more westernized education, but I understand that even if parents who want a more Asian education for their kids, they may still place them in international schools to avoid the social problem. This option is not available in the West.
#1 & #2 –> Perpetual Foreigners EVERYWHERE
3. Fixation on their looks
Eurasians, like multiracial people everywhere, face constant scrutiny and dissection for their appearance. But given the fascination with Eurasians in Asia, it is particularly tough there. To be a model, a fixation on their looks might be appropriate, but not so for ordinary people. It creates a lot of mental anguish and social constrictions and penalties for people.
4. Colourism
In those places where Eurasians might be regarded as “local” (eg, Philippines) they still have to deal with colourism, which is a double edged sword itself.
5. Constant challenge to their racial loyalties
This is also something common to multiracial people everywhere. They constantly get challenged on their racial loyalty and will get accepted or rejected accordingly.
For multiracial people pre-civil rights era in the USA, they got rejected hands down by whites, unless they could “pass”. They were thus *assigned* racial loyalties. Nowadays, they face more daily challenge and required to confirm them on a regular basis.
–> This is a matter that I particularly detested about the USA. White colour-blind racial loyalty is just a veneer cover over loyalty to “whiteness”.
–> My point is, they have their own demons to battle. And I think boys who have to grow up with constant Asian male bashing from both their parents (esp. White Dad / Asian mom) have their own specific burdens to overcome. If you see your cousins actively denigrating Asian males in front of you, it should be a sign that there is some trouble there. Whereas their mental instability may not be at the point of Elliot Rodger, it should be looked into. Their parents might be oblivious to the problem.
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* du jour (dammit!)
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A few years ago, I read the blog of a guy who had a white father and Asian mother and who lamented about it. He resented that his father, even after marrying his mother, still could just go on continuing to be white and enjoying white privilege. His mother was so keen about accessing white privilege that she hoped to tap into it by marrying a white man and having mixed children. But his son lamented that he was constantly being assigned negative Asian male stereotypes and his parents seemed not to have any empathy for the torment he was facing.
He specifically expressed the resentment he had for men who had Asian fathers and white mothers. He thought it was easier for them to excel in student government (eg, class president), become football players and get white girls. He thought that they were so much more confident than he, and that *they* were the lucky ones. I didn’t know where this came from until I thought about it for a minute.
The only thing I can say is that men with Asian fathers and white mothers already have a role model for Asian men getting white girls –> their parents. Whatever negative Asian male stereotypes that they learned growing up, they have at least one real life example where an Asian man overcame them and got the white girl. Boys with white fathers and Asian mothers might have less access to role models where the Asian male got the white girl and find it a more perplexing task – how to navigate the white girl dating scene as an Asian man. Their father is no help.
But having an Asian father and white mother could have a negative side, esp. if the white woman thinks whites are racially superior to Asians or if she regrets losing some of her white privilege in marrying her husband. This might not be positive role model for the children.
I do find that people who have Asian fathers / white mothers do have a different mentality from those who have white fathers / Asian mothers.
In any case, I learned one lesson: be wary of rooming / living with a guy who had an white Dad / Asian mom. It might not be safe.
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@Sharina, re:
I am not sure if we should be using the words “sane” and “crazy” to describe Elliot Rodger.
I think he was very lucid, had a meticulous analytical mind and had some definite talent in expressing himself (ie, putting thoughts into words). That doesn’t exactly make him “sane”.
He was socially immature and suffered from internalized racism. He found no satisfactory outlet for his sexual urges. That doesn’t exactly make him “crazy”. I don’t think it helped that he was raised on a diet of video games fed to him by materialistic divorced parents.
But obviously he was not exactly mentally stable. Now that is a relative term. Probably 99% of us suffer from periods of mental instability from time to time. That is one reason I feel that easy access to guns is not a safe option. 99% of us have mentally unstable periods where we should NOT have a gun in our hands.
I think his parents and psychiatric counselors had little clue about what he was suffering from, esp. the internalized racism part. He might have benefited from a positive role model who could understand his internalized racism and lack of social confidence.
He resented white males, full Asians, persons who were part or full black or Latino and all women. They all became his “enemies”. I wonder if a Hapa / Eurasian male could have helped him. Just speculation.
I skipped 2 grades forward since elementary school and was the shortest male in my class until the end of high school. My bullying growing up was perhaps even more violent than Elliot’s — (I fully understand tactics that one must devise to avoid bully attacks, which sometimes require avoiding social interaction and becoming socially isolated). My parents separated several times growing up, and eventually divorced when I was an adult. I never dated in High school and scarcely any in college. I had a brother that was a lot more popular in the community and my parents always praised him for his social skills. He dated white girls since high school. I felt not accepted by the white side of my family (and at one point asked me not to see them) but they felt much more comfortable with my brother. They played that mind game sh1t with me of how they were of superior stock and I was tainted.
They didn’t have video games or the internet when I was growing up (and my parents weren’t that well off). I spent my time in books.
My mother’s side was totally clueless about internalized racism (in fact, they were among the perpetrators). My father knew about it, but was so caught up with his own mental instability that he had no room left over to help me with mine.
My situation was still different, but I totally “get” what Elliot Rodger was going through. It’s horrible. It’s sheer pain.
I found ways to work through it, but it’s not easy. and it is a lifelong struggling process – still working at it. I think by the time I was about 18-19, it got better, but I did not reach a more stable sustainable situation until well in my 20s and still had ups and downs after that.
But imagine if I had had access to guns when I was, say, 19. Gee.
Will America learn the proper lesson from this event? I doubt it.
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@Sharina,
Sorry if I misunderstood you. Maybe you mean to confirm if ER was suffering from some medically diagnosable psychiatric disorder (eg, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc.).
You know what, I don’t know. Maybe not. If so, drugs may not have offered much solution.
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After the comments above little is left to say about one important dimension of the Elliot Roger’s problems that pushed him to commit multiple homicide and the suicide at that fatal day. This is the racial dimension.
I would like to explore another dimension that though related to the one above should be the object of a deeper and separate analysis.
Let us think about the following subjects:
* male shyness
* bullying (specially in school environments)
Shyness is a psychological trait that occurs both in males and females and has, apparently, some genetic underpinning.
Shy people have often less social skills than extroverts and this can make their life somewhat more difficult. But shyness in males is also a negative factor in their ability to relate to females. Not only is harder for shy males to open themselves to women but most women do not find shyness in males as an attractive trait. And to complicate matters even more, shy males seem to be more selective than others in their choosing in the dating game.
I think that this is a psychological setup that drives male shy individuals to an uphill battle when dealing with women.
And if you add bullying by others to the mix…
Shy males are more frequently object of bullying than others. Their less efficiency in dealing with women make them object of mock by others (male and females alike). They are seen as less masculine and sometimes even seen as gays (No heterosexual male likes to be confused with gays).
Elliot Roger’s deeds can not be excused but at least understood (and merely labeling him as ‘nut’, ‘deranged’,’psychotic’, ‘loser’ etc does not help).
I suspect that the factors that I describe above are more or less prevalent in most of the killing sprees that occurred at schools in the USA in the past two decades or so.
Maybe one should begin to do something concerning those matters and also to press for a tightening of the regulations regarding the gun access by minors in the USA society.
I have a question for all the commentators: if you had a shy son in his teenage years and you noticed that he had difficulties dealing with girls what would you do? Or would you think that was no big deal and things will eventually sort out by themselves?
It is no easy to empathize with the killer, or even simply step into his shoes. But as Jeff made abundantly clear, the guy probably went through a lot of mental pain most of his life too. And understanding is the first step to prevention of future cases…
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Legion:
I posted a more thorough response to this, but for some reason the system won’t accept it. In a nutshell, there’s no contradiction.
While Rodger had little self-insight into the causality of his failures, he kept detailed enough notes about people, places, and things that others can see where his problems lie.
Essentially, he had no idea how to form relationships with women, and it doesn’t appear like he ever even made a credible attempt.
To him, women were things that simply materialized out of thin air if you had the right appearances, rather than being relationships you had to develop using a particular set of social skills.
Imagine a guy with no resume and who never wore pants complaining that he couldn’t get a job because of racism.
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First, as far as shyness in general goes, I don’t know that I’ve ever heard of an anti-shyness class. But the closest thing I’ve seen to it is a theater arts (acting) class. This is the most effective professional system I’ve seen that begins by taking positive steps to get children and teens out of shyness and into personal confidence. It begins by opening up in paired groups, then to the rest of the class, and then before a larger audience. This process works for shy kids, whether they plan to go into acting or not. I would also suggest rhetorical clubs like Toastmaster that give kids an opportunity to speak publicly and build their personal confidence.
As far as shyness towards girls in particular. I think the most effective route is for young men to have girls as friends as they grow up. I mean non-sexual relationships that include females so that women will become less of a mystery for them to freak out about. Any good romance has to be built on friendship on its foundational level if it’s going to work and last. So guys who can approach girls as friends first have a much better chance of developing meaningful relationships later. Also, they tend to be more aware from experience, of how women think, and know when they might be crossing a line, or when to let it rest. Boys who grow up with female friends in their lives are just less shy around females as they get older.
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King,
Your suggestion is very mainstream, and is something that you might say as a kind gesture to someone.
They may not work though.
I took speech classes after university, which included public speaking. I was the only student in the class who already had a university degree, yet the instructor tried to push me into a class designed for foreign undergraduate freshman students.
I grew up as a stutterer, and underwent a series of 4 different therapy programmes from age 8 to my late 20s. During the last series of therapies, I finally got my stuttering (ie, number of dysfluencies per minute) to within clinically acceptable limits, After moving to NY, I had a new boss that threatened to fire me if my speech did not improve.
You can imagine the psychological effect of going through decades of speech classes and therapy, only to encounter another boss that threatens to fire me. It wasn’t the first time.
One of the new specialists I consulted told me that I should just take an acting class or join toastmasters. I went to see a psychologist from the company’s EAP program and he just tore that recommendation to pieces, saying that he was not focusing on my specific problems. I went with another specialist who decided to focus on diction and other speech stuff. I decided to go with him, as it couldn’t hurt.
I actually acted in an off-broadway community play in New York too.
After working with that specialist for several months, my boss said my speech was still no good and I still got fired from my job. Thoughts of suicide crossed my mind. I don’t think I could face having another boss who complained about my speech.
I have much less problem speaking in front of a crowd in 6 different languages, or acting on stage in front of hundreds of people. Even now, I conduct meetings with senior company officials and interview workers. Yet, I struggle immensely with 1-1 conversation with strangers or even friends and struggle not to devolve into stuttering fits. I know what some of the problems are, but I push myself through it via pure force of will and inure myself to the pain of failure.
I had more female friends growing up than males, but in my late teens and 20s, I didn’t have dates. It took me a while to figure out what the problem was. It had nothing to do with the inability to form friendships with girls as I had many female friends.
You may be shocked to learn that part of the problem with both speech and dating has to do with externalized and internalized racism. People think it is not a big deal, but for me, it really had a big effect (still does).
I know your suggestions are presented with well-meaned intentions, but any of us could just be armchair psychiatrists, me included. I don’t profess to know the answers, but we definitely should be asking the questions.
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Re: Shyness, Gun possession, etc.
I had my shyness troubles too. Jefe mentioned what a bad idea gun possession is. My own “gun” could have been drugs. It could have been, fortunately it never was. The one attraction I had to drugs, was when I heard how Cocaine will do wonders for one’s confidence. I gave it a degree of consideration that was not insignificant. Thankfully, I never went there but it was very seductive to think that a drug would grant me the confidence I had so wanted. What a spiral of hell that would have been. *silent thanks*
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jefe
There was kind of a misunderstanding, but you managed to actually open the door to other thoughts. The idea of what is “sane” and what is “crazy”. Sometime people that are no more than socially awkward can get the label of “crazy” but by normal standards of crazy they are not. With Elliot he is not “crazy” by normal standards. Emotionally and mentally unstable perhaps, but psych ward…no. Atleast I don’t get the feeling he is.
@ munu aka Bantu
“if you had a shy son in his teenage years and you noticed that he had difficulties dealing with girls what would you do? Or would you think that was no big deal and things will eventually sort out by themselves”—-For me personally I would not think of it as a big deal. Reason being is because I was like that and I am sure many parents think about the same. It would not usually set off alarms because it is just the teenage thing. There are plenty of times during my teenage years where I was on the borderline. Though I also have a strong personality and strong and positive support system in place with family and friends. Besides I would prefer the book focus rather than the girls focus. I think as a parent there are much deeper signs of an issue you may want to look for. Those signs that tell you there is a serious level of disconnect going on.
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@ jefe
Bear in mind that I was trying to reply in a reasonably short space, so I couldn’t possibly make the fit to every possible circumstance or eventuality.
Yes, suggesting acting or rhetorical classes does not mean that every single person will become 100% “healed” of his shyness because every person is different and every circumstance is different. You might not have the right drama teacher, or you might have too many students in the class, or the application to every day life will not be sufficiently made. There is no way to guarantee that every sing;e drama class on the face of the earth will help every shy child born on the earth.
But this is where I am coming from. A good drama class is not foundation ally about “playing a part,” it is about reaching into yourself and sharing a part of yourself while other people watch on. One can reverence the works of Stanislavsky, Chekhov, Strasberg, or many others. It’s about placing yourself in a circumstance and then sharing your very personal reactions in front of large groups of people. So in many ways, method acting challenges the very heart of shyness and challenges the practitioner to overcome this shame of self. Now everybody doesn’t teach like that, and some teach it better than others. But the road to being able to do this successfully is by learning to see people and their many faults in a different light. Even yourself.
Now if the question is, “What can be done to guarantee a successful anti-shyness outcome for every person.” Then the answer is “NOTHING.” But if someone is asking for advice, the I would say that a good acting class is a great start because it daily challenges the very things that create shyness. But the real answer is that shyness is usually strongly tied to a lack of self confidence, and to great a regard for the opinions of other people. A good acting class will attack both of those personal demons.
As for girls as friends, it does not guarantee success in dating either, but it does give one an advantage on some levels. Knowing women is better than not knowing women. Being able to talk to women is better than never having talked to women. But does it necessarily make you Don Juan? No. What it does do is give you the social perspective to know when not to approach a woman, of when she may not be interested in you, or what things women find attractive. It’s hard to know those things without knowing women, isn’t it?
But the answer I would give from experience is that I grew up with a pretty large group of both guys and girls who got on together as we grew up in the black community. We ALL practiced our “rap” on the girls we knew, and they ALWAYS shot us down! It was a kind of game. Sometimes they had to laugh at our creativity and slickness. We all laughed at their creativity in finding ways to turn us down! But out of that came two things.
1) Guys learned that getting turned down was no big thing at that it happened to everybody and was not the end of the world.
2) Girls learned that they could turn guys down, and that guys were not always serious about the things they said in the spur of the moment.
Later on in life it meant that when girls weren’t interested, we just shrugged our shoulders and went on to the next girl who we wanted to talk to. We learned not to come off as needy, clingy, of pathetic. We were confident because hey, there was always someone else we could talk to. When a woman was interested, that was good too!
Now, the one catch to this was that not every guy who grew up, grew up. Most of us stopped playing the game (it had served its purpose in teaching us it’s lessons) but a few guys grew into 30-year-old teenagers who never stopped dropping lines to every women that crossed their path. But to the point, none of us were painfully shy growing up like that.
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I have made it a policy to stop delving too much into the details of mass murders so I didn’t even notice the “internalized racism” aspect of this crime. It is so essential that all people rid themselves of the implant but often they do not even realize consciously that it is there. Furthermore, whites have an uncanny ability to automatically assess all developments to determine whether it is in their favor. The charge of “reverse racism” is a common one used to squash self-affirmation. But if there is “reverse racism” what was the “forward racism”? Where does reversing racism by the same amount that it went forward leave us? Is that a bad thing? No. I am never affected by being accused of “reverse racism”.
I believe that one of the most powerful things anyone can do to combat white supremist racism is to completely accept themselves. Regardless of the external situation that has been imposed nobody can really stop you from doing this. It is an unbeatable form a resistance that is in everyone’s arsenal; they just have to pick it up. They can be discouraged from picking it up with various forms of propaganda but they can’t really be stopped. Yet many people fall for the powerful suggestions regarding the nature of beauty, intelligence, etc. White racism could not continue without the unwitting cooperation of its victims.
“Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of DEFENDING and IDENTIFYING WITH them. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially MISTAKE A LACK OF ABUSE from their captors FOR AN ACT OF KINDNESS.”
It seems that groups which have been attacked, raped, and colonized by whites yet have evolved towards loving whites and hating themselves are displaying a large-scale version of this phenomenon. “Internalized racism” seems to be a specific form of “stockholm syndrome”: identifying with the captor/abuser. These irrational behaviors arise as a result of the trauma of being held captive. There is a clear analogy between what the world is enduring at the hands of whites’ empire and the smaller-scale scenario of a person being held hostage by another. So it makes sense that the forms of psycological dysfunction should correspond but on a group level. It is up to those groups, to whatever degree they are afflicted, to deprogam themselves. Nobody can help them.
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Don’t understand why anybody could be obsessed or even remotely interested in made to movie series like “Twilight” or “Hunger Games”. They are made for the privileged narcissistic white majority that could give a fuck or have compassion for anything other than themselves.
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He was a nice-looking guy, from a family with money and connections, well educated. I’m certain there were plenty of women interested in him, but he couldn’t see it because of his mental illness coupled with his obsession over getting a trophy female on his arm. It’s an horrific tragedy for the families of his victims.
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@ King
This lack of self-confidence in children can lead to isolation, etc. I can understand that, and possible ways, as you describe here, that families and schools can involve children to come out of themselves.
But in my time, I’ve seen among adults use “shyness” as a veneer, and cover, for behaviour that wouldn’t be deemed “shy” because they’ve used the image associated with shyness for social, or socio-sexual, profit.
Shyness (in these situations) is a code-word for modesty, thoughtfulness and harmlesseness.
You’d think a guy who “boasted” how shy he was to unsuspecting women wouldn’t be a closet-Lothario — but they exist! It’s just a pick-up technique.
Apparently Being Shy can appear charming, appear “sensitive”, but it can also be the cover-behaviour of the aggressive and predatory in both male and female.
I don’t feel ER was shy as such.
I don’t believe he feared contact with others, although he felt under pressure to so so in the society he lived in: to PERFORM like a privileged kinda heterosexual guy he appeared to be.
I feel he chose not to instead, because he was, in essence, an introvert — which is not the same as being “shy”.
What totally and gradually filled the quiet spaces in his head, and was never challenged at home or in his culture, was
–self-hatred, and,
–anger he could control less and less.
http://www.webcitation.org/664kim4ik
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When I say “challenged”, I also mean identified, and possibly treated.
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King, also forgot to mention that the link posted ^^ is of a brief video that talks about the difference between shy and introvert.
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There was one article that told about how Rodger said that he tried to shove a girl off a ledge during a party and got beaten up for it.
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Very good point Bulanik!
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I’m starting to think that some of the incidents that Rodger talked about, as far as bullying goes, was caused by himself instead of him being a chosen target for bullying. I’m not saying he wasn’t bullied, but sometimes you have to consider the possibility that he started (at least) some of his own horrible treatments.
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@ Jefe
Yep. I totally get where your’e coming from.
PWS (persons who stutter) sometimes use theatre and acting to “remedy” that.
Dance and Art can also be great, and turn into serious work.
Others use music, a musical instrument. My brother used Martial Arts.
Basically, activities that avoid the use of words.
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Another good point, most sagacious Wolf!
Bulanik, thanks for that interesting link, I’ll watch a soon as I can.
And one good link deserves another of course
(http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nKWbMJOIkUk)
lol!
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@ King — thanks! It’s been ages since I heard that one. 😀
@ Brothawolf:
I think you’re on the money.
To call these behaviour of his “attention-seeking” would be the wrong descriptor, and unfair, I think, because I believe ER needed help, and knew it, but he just wasn’t getting it. No one was there to listen to him and take him in hand, not his father, mother, school counsellor, and so on, etc.
He knew he wasn’t fitting in — he was being left out and left behind.
How else could he engage with others when he had no skills at his disposal, just acts of aggression and attack?
Others could only despise him for that, and he could only hate himself more.
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@”I fail to see what it has to do with Elliot Rodger. He was not Black nor were any of his victims. It is a standard White racist deflection.”
sb32199 is obviously deflecting from the fact that whites also kill people (and more people), because he lives in a fantasy world where the only ones who do are just crazies.
Paul Mooney has a good stand-up bit on how society is all too quick to label evil white murderers as mentally ill, but not others for the same crimes.
@sb32199
In case you didn’t know, most white Americans are killed by other whites, and very few of them are deemed to be suffering from mental illness. And less than 30% of all school shooters are motivated by mental illness.
Enough of your excuses for evil acts.
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@Bulanik,
Whilst this might be a solution for the relevant person to find a means of expression and communication that he might find easier than speech, I don’t think avoiding the use of words is an advisable long term strategy. Our ability to survive requires us to communicate.
What I have had to do is to learn techniques to get around those obstacles (eg, writing out scripts in advance, become very deliberate with each word if they start to become difficult), and how to handle the social awkwardness of a stuttering attack if it occurs. Finding other means of expression that do not need words is OK. Avoiding the use of words and speech is not something I would advocate.
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@King, Wolf, Bulanik,
Whilst it is hard NOT to acknowledge that ER sometimes provoked others which led to retaliation, I would hesitate to say that he was responsible for most of his bullying (I know you only said “some”, but I would still be careful).
It is a common self-soothing psychological technique to blame victims for their mistreatment. Kids are bullied all the time, some mercilessly. I would not jump to any conclusion that victims typically bring that on themselves.
For ER, sometimes, maybe so, but most times, I really don’t think so.
It is also known many bullies have some self-esteem problems, what I think he was doing was trying to see if he could bully other people first.
Maybe his action was a psychological testing ground to build confidence for his escalated “bullying” attacks later on, resulting in deaths and injuries.
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@ Bulanik and brothawolf
Very good points!
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jefe,
I used the word ‘some’ because the details about his history of bullying, whether it’s about him being the bully or the victim and how many times it’s been either way, aren’t discussed in detail. Like you’ve pointed out, those who have been bullied become the bully. This incident that I mentioned seems to support that, but it’s hard to say how many other incidents there are of the same nature. One could say that they were the results of being victim if there were more than one. But with this event, I think the article said that he tried to assert himself with the girl he tried to push. I wish I had the link to the article to be sure.
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@ Jefe,
I don’t believe that ER was “responsible” for his own bullying.
I don’t believe people “bring things on themselves” if they suffer bullying!
Not at all. I don’t subscribe and never have, to that way of thinking at all.
What I meant was, when I I said that “he knew he wasn’t fitting in — he was being left out and left behind. How else could he engage with others”, he was looking for help.
I have seen people behave like that because they are crying out.
Sometimes, someone who cares sees something isn’t right and takes care of that kid.
But “No one was there to listen to him and take him in hand, not his father, mother, school counsellor, and so on, etc” — no one.
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@ Jefe
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@Brothawolf,
Yeah, I read about the girl pushing incident. But I think that was late stage, maybe a couple months before his killing spree. And yeah, I think he may have been experimenting with being the bully.
We could even see his killing spree as type of ultimate bullying. If you kill someone first, they cannot gang up on you.
But, I think he had already been bullied for 10-15 years before that, and most of that I suspect he was targeted first. Maybe he started to learn that one way to engage people is to bully them as that is the kind of social interaction that he learned.
@Bulanik,
I think this idea is consistent with yours. I think he was trying to see what it felt like to be the bully.
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@ Jefe
Agreed — not over the long term.
What I have had to do is to learn techniques to get around those obstacles (eg, writing out scripts in advance, become very deliberate with each word if they start to become difficult), and how to handle the social awkwardness of a stuttering attack if it occurs. Finding other means of expression that do not need words is OK. Avoiding the use of words and speech is not something I would advocate.
You’re right.
Speaking, though, is but one aspect of communication.
Other aspects of communication require LISTENING, and being silent.
That takes discipline and practice, too. And quite under-valued culturally, imo.
Writing things out, deliberating saying each word, etc., always helped, and were necessary.
Yet, I believe because I spent so much time not speaking, but listening, reading, watching, thinking silently — and having to — it gave me an edge whilst learning. Speech and writing difficulties can force a person to try harder, search more.
One really valuable offshoot was that I gradually found I spent less time preparing what I had to say when other people were talking that I ended up paying attention to what they were saying (and what they weren’t).
Genuine interest and endless curiosity took over!
It seemed to take the pressure out of actually forming the words in my answer because the desire to “compete”, or out-talk, had evapourated.
I don’t mean to say that that “competition” aspect is what you imply or advocate, Jefe. Not at all.
However, I do think the way things are in many cultures is that being heard, being taken seriously, being someone, requires a level of fluency and articulateness that overshadows listening or quietness.
Quietness is seen as “passive”, or weak or empty, feminine, even. it’s a mistake, but it goes on like that.
If a person is too quiet, they can get passed over, talked over, are misperceived as having no voice at all, and not existing.
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One thing I noticed that a lot people miss is that this was not really about women
In his Manifesto – He was talking about guys, mainly white guys.
In his manifesto – Girls are not important, bar family, most women have no-names or personalities but guys are written in specific DETAIL (first and last names ) especially if they’re white.
Even guys on the street are assessed, jawline, nose, height, looks, clothes.
Women are symbols, that’s why he wanted to lose his V so bad, to show other guys he was a MAN, as good as a white man and the fact that he could not get a white women was embarrassing proof of his inferiority.
The #yesallwomen gets it wrong. Rodger was obsessed with White women. Blond White women to be specific.
Him being half Asian, to him, stained him, and messed up the entitlement he would have had if he were pure white.
His rage was most at those he thought of as lowest on the racial totem pole – blacks, Latinos and “full-blooded Asians”
Ppl point out that because Elliot also killed men, we can’t say that he hated women (but this dudes plan was to kill an entire sorority and burn their house down, it was only because the back door was locked and the front manned with security that saved them).
White people did not accept Elliot Rodger as White. Non-white self-hate is a primary result of White Supremacy.
Take Leo Felton – non-white male with one White parent, one black parent. He attempts to “pass” as White plans to ignite a “race war.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Felton
Felton had one black parent and one white one. The week the story broke, he tried to commit suicide by slicing his own jugular vein.
Like Felton, Rodger’s father was White. His mother is non-white. The idea of white culture [becomes] symbolic to him.
Rodger’s manifesto states Peter Rodger (His dad) had less time for him and restricted Elliot’s access to his residence. This is not surprising but Rodger’s father could have helped him develop manhood but White peoples dedication to White Supremacy is shown by their silence on racism with their “mixed-race” offspring.
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@Blanc2
Hilarious defense that is quite offensive actually. The guy was privileged and I would say he is 100% white in privilege in every way. He let his “white” ego feed his rage and go on a killing spree. Dude never had it tough in life and couldn’t cope with his hate for non-whites in general.
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Is it possible that he was secretly attracted to those guys? I think It is time I set aside time to read his 137 pg bio.
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TheHipHopRecords (@TheHipHopRecord)
Love your comment!
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Yes, HipHopRecords was very insightful, esp. re how all the guys either had full names, or had very specific distinct descriptions (the strangers) but the women were simply all nameless (but white and usually blonde). The only women who had names were his mother, his grandmother, his Aunt, his sister and his stepmother. He didn’t notice women as individuals outside his family.
Also, the thing about Fenton, thanks for that.
I wonder what will happen now to ER’s father, the film director. After all this analysis and his claim that he had no idea about his son’s racist attitudes, ppl are going to think he is messed up too somehow.
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@Ally
I don’t watch televised news, so today is really the first day I’ve heard of this guy. But the more I learn about it, the more I find it absurd that people like you are blaming his iniquity on mental illness. This is exactly what Paul Mooney was talking about:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeGXfVRVhZg&w=420&h=315)
Unless you call racism or sexism a mental illness, no, I don’t think Rodger was mentally ill. He was racist, sexist, self-consumed, envious of others, and just mad at himself for not being “white.” He wasn’t mad that he couldn’t get laid, because he “hated women.”
I for one am glad this scumbag died knowing he wasn’t good enough to get even a drunk slut at UCSB.
“If racism and sexism was so rampant then there would be tragedies like this every day. ”
That’s not true. One can be racist and sexist but not be violent. Rodger was racist, sexist and violent.
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I would blame the father too. Dude was intelligent enough to write for the series “ER” and direct films so he must have also be a sociopathic hateful mofo. Book it. I hope he falls on his head as well.
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@ Jefe
ppl are going to think he [the father] is messed up too somehow.
Don’t be too sure about that. Rodger the elder (RE) has a lot of the symbols and achievements of success, that means he is awesome, thank you very much! Also, he can always “say” (not directly, as it might be a tad crass) that his other son is just fine, thank you very much! Also, ER was mentally ill, so how can RE be responsible, thank you very much!
It can go on in this self serving way for quite some time, see how easy it is!
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… as a side note:
I AM BLOWN AWAY with the story of Felton. It’s quite an amazing reframe of personal identity – holy sh!t.
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Spot on, HipHopRecords. There was an article that said the same thing.
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resw77,
Mooney seems to have missed the part of the narrative where the crazy white killers were sentenced to 1,000 years in jail.
On the other hand, OJ was acquitted for a double homicide we all know he committed.
Meanwhile, Eliot Rodger is dead. No trial, no jury, no psychiatric evaluation. Case closed.
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@sb32199
Mooney is aware that blacks get tougher sentences than whites for the same crimes in America, and obviously that the media are quick to label white-ish murderers like Rodger “mentally ill.”
Not sure what OJ has to do with anything, and we don’t all know he committed anything. But it’s just another example of your deflecting from the subject b/c it makes you feel uncomfortable to see how much evil there is in America.
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@Legion,
You know, I think you may be right about the father. He might escape this whole incident almost unscathed, as he has a “normal” daughter and son. It means no lessons learned from this. *sigh*
On the other note, I wrote a whole post about the NYT article about Fenton, but didn’t send it. My main point of that was that I thought the reporter made several very interesting points and insights, and I was impressed about how much research he did into the article.
Also, I didn’t want to hijack this thread with one about Fenton.
I also found it interesting about how the whole thing affected his girlfriend – after learning about his racial background, she actually dropped her white racist separatist politics and decided to reframe her view of society into more a multiracial frame.
But that was over 10 years ago. Where have we progressed from there?
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@Brothawolf,
Do you have a link to that other article?
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@ Sharina
In which way?
The explanation you’re looking for might not be exactly homoerotic in nature.
Power struggles are always going on between men.
Rank checking and rank pulling is central, and constant.
Patriarchy is a p*ssing contest that goes on day and night.
Ellliot Rodger fought and lost his battle for a white man’s Social Identity, and status. As I said earlier, he chose to STAB the men he killed on his murder spree, but he shot the women, rather than stab them, because:
ER’s social identity was defined by the power he thought he was entitled to over (white) women and that power, if he had achieved, would signal to all that he could compete successfully against other men.
Patriachy is a ranking system, but it isn’t only — or primarily — about power over women. (Even in all-male environments, e.g. prisons, there will be a strata of men who will be forced to descend into the status of “women”, i.e., they can be raped, penetrated and owned in order for other higher status men, to BE men.)
Therefore, this is about male power among men, something shared, but with different grades of masculinities among them.
One of the most powerful weapons that men use to create and enforce rank, is to constantly reinforce the difference between gay and straight.
Questioning it, or suggesting gayness is It’s the quickest and easiest way to undermine a man…
And, practically ANYTHING will do as a symbol of male powerlessness.
That is not a line that most men negotiate.
There are men who are prepared to kill if their masculinity is threatened, and do so in their right mind and with all jusification.
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TheHipHopRecords said:
From the links provided, they seem to say his father was black and his mother white.
I do understand the drift of TheHipHopRecords argument, but if the facts are true about Felton’s parents, it changes things around a bit.
If Felton’s MALE parent is non-white, the impact of cultural symbolism changes in the male child.
For ER, it was significant that his father was white, and his mother, not.
(And, male Asian-ness is mischaracterised in a different way to male blackness — are polarised, in fact.)
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@Bulanik,
Yeah, I think you are right about ER’s need to assert his masculinity, and less about any homoerotic fantasy. The latter would make him less likely to kill.
Sometimes I think humans are not much different from baboons and other large primate groups with social hierarchies.
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@Bulanik,
Yes, you’re right. TheHipHopRecords was wrong about this statement.
Felton’s father was black. His mother was white. And his mother had him institutionalized as a teenager. Too bad his Dad was powerless to get him out.
I agree that the cultural symbolism of race is different for biracial children if the father is white (black) (Asian) v. the mother is white (or black or Asian). It is actually very different.
However, they both spring from the more popular pairings (ie, black father / white mother and white father / Asian mother).
There is also a generational difference. ER was born in the early 90s, after it was socially acceptable for Asian women to marry white men and have kids. Fenton’s parents married right after Loving v. Virginia. Interracial marriages were just starting to take off and kids his age would have had very few contacts or knowledge of other biracial families. It is no accident that multiracial activism did not really start taking off until after 1990.
And Fenton had girlfriends too. One that actually fell in love with him. And most of all, Fenton is still alive.
The main similarity I get from them is the connection of internalized racism to subsequent violence.
I am really in support of more positive role models out there. People (like Vin Diesel) could really do a lot of good while sharing their own struggles.
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This appears to be another ploy for gun control laws…in other words, a hoax on the public. By examining all the known details of this whole thing, the story begins to fall apart.
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I know that you are at odds with some of your cousins, but can you empathize with what they must be going through? Can you imagine if Elliot Rodger was your cousin?
How do you think Asian / black pairings are viewed? Would white men seen Asian women / black male pairings as a threat (as if they “owned” Asian women for themselves)? or is it seen as the stereotypical hypersexualized racial pairing?
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Pay it Forward, re:
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand. How is the ER killing spree a hoax on the public re: the push for gun control laws? Where is the hoax?
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May be I’m wrong but as I looked at Leo Felton’s odyssey I could not escape the conclusion that the guy was not anti-Black before entering the prison for first (?) time. If anything he was more pro-Black than pro-White.
But something happened there that turned his mind. He become to see Blacks and other men of color (with the possible exception of Asians) as the bullies, the Enemy.
We should try to access and understand, in an unbiased way, that prison’s environment, to see what really happened there and if possibly that justifies Felton’s change of mind, even if that does not excuse, naturally, White racism in the society at large.
Sometimes real life events trigger the “racist response” in an individual who was before not one (or didn’t appear like one).
The case of Elliot Roger is apparently different. The sense of entitlement that came of his upbringing and the realities of life in general walked in opposite directions and collide with each other at some point in time.
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@ Kiwi:
I concur with this! The same thing happened to me when my boyfriend now husband went to a club. My SO left to go to the washroom and this white guy pestered me. I told him I wasn’t interested and I already had a boyfriend, but no, he kept at it. My husband reappeared and told the guy to leave me alone and the guy used racist slurs and stereotypes (martial arts) and dared my husband to fight him outside the club. My husband isn’t a violent man, but he sucker punched the guy on the spot. Of course, my husband was kicked out of the club because the bouncers thought he started it. Imagine that? Anyway, I was so proud he defended me. You can’t get away with saying sh*t and not expect a fist in your mouth. All I can say is, the entitlement of white men is unbelievable. Rodger’s being half-white thought like this.
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@ sb
I deleted your comment. Black crime is off topic here.
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http://racism-notes.blogspot.com/2014/06/ElliotRodger.html
For anyone interested…you may have to scroll down a bit.
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From my observations, the few Asian women who are with Black men tend to have integrated themselves strongly with Black people. You get where i am going with this, and not ALL Asian women care to be seen as “submissive” “lotus flowers.”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGi4cB4JH_w)
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Jefe, just so you’re consciously aware, you were repeatedly doing something:
Felton/Fenton
just letting you know man, not saying it’s a big deal.
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@Legion,
I think I was mistakenly making a portmanteau of Felton and ex-DC Mayor Fenty, who also has a black father and white mother and is about the same age.
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@phoebeprunelle
Thank you for the link
The following is SO True
The blogger made the same mistake as Hiphoprecords above:
Felton was the other way around.
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@ Jefe
Sometimes I think humans are not much different from baboons and other large primate groups with social hierarchies.
It’s a major part of who we are. It is so seamlessly integrated with our higher faculties that it can be hard to see and appreciate, but it’s there for sure, and it’s very powerful.
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@Kiwi
“I find it strange that sb32199 keeps trying to drag black crime into a thread about a non-black criminal who obviously despised nonwhites.”
He does that to take the attention away from this non-black mass murderer and to convince us that whites are all benevolent or mentally ill. He’s highly delusional and racist.
@PayItForward
“This appears to be another ploy for gun control laws…in other words, a hoax on the public.”
While I agree that the media tend to spin these mass killings to convince viewers to support gun control laws, I don’t see where the “hoax” is. Are you saying Rodger was programmed a la MKUltra?
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@ Randy
We see what we want to see.
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@ Pay It Forward
Along with resw77, I don’t understand what you mean with the “hoax” charge. Do you mean Rodger was programmed?
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or do you mean something else?
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@HipHop Records: That was great, thanks for bringing that.
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@ Bulanik
I apologize it has taken me so long to apply to your post.
“In which way?”—I mean as in sexually. With the women being of so meager importance as to not have a name or any real details other than “blonde,” could it be his real attraction were the men? Could it be that there was an internal fight with what he is suppose to like and have verses what society has decided he is suppose to like and have? I could be just reaching here or perhaps too much late night bios on Jeffrey Dahmer that are resulting in me mixing the two. 😦
Thanks for your detailed response as it clears up much of my confusion.
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@ Peanut
It means a lot. Felton’s wiki photo was a surprise in terms of his skin tone and features. his father being half black, now gives a feel to the photo which wasn’t there for me before. Considering how Felton grew up (no father, two white women, then “the system”) his dismissal of his black genes does not seem as radical to me as it did before, but it is still significant, somehow. It’s easy to dismiss something you are only 1/4 of, if you want to, provided the features of that 1/4 are not so noticeable or are ambiguous.
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@ resw77 @ Legion
My apologies. I just finished writing a lengthy detailed response but when I clicked “Post Comment”, it simply disappeared. This happens sometimes.
Anyway, I’ll just say this — while it had not occurred to me that Elliot Rodger might have been a programmed assassin, I guess it is possible, though I think programmed assassins behave in a more or less normal manner until the time they hear the word that kicks in their programming.
.
No, in this case, and to my mind, this is more like a staged event if you get my drift. We don’t actually know that anyone died at all, not even the person who called himself “Elliot Rodger”. There are lots of fishy details to be examined in this case, and then if we toss in “single father” Richard Martinez’s tearless command – one day after his son’s death – for immediate gun control laws, it starts to reek of a staged hoax to my nose.
[For the record, I have nothing against gun control.]
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^PIF You have reason to believe the Isla Vista killing spree was staged? by whom? the Gun Control lobby?
Wow! I am trying to wrap my head about how an external party staged the stabbing and mutilation of the 3 Asian young men in their rooms and what it has to do with Gun Control.
Or you think they staged only the sorority house and convenience store portions?
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PIF, with all due respect, I’m sure the obits of those who were killed is in the papers, not to mention their funerals have taken place and families with now dead loved ones.
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@ Jefe
Re: the father’s rep.
I forgot to mention a comparison.
Woody Allen is possibly one of the most disgraced Americans of modern times, even putting aside the accusations child molestation. To have become involved as he did with his elder daughter or daughter-figure, I don’t even know what to call it, was probably bad enough. Anyway, prominent industry people still wanted to work with him and do still work with him. He still seems to have, “Woody Allen’s life”, I’m sort of amazed by all this. And recall, in Allen’s case there was (and continues to be) a dedicated and public effort to shame, discredit and criminalize him, by members of the Farrow family. The claims against him (true or not) have a powerful stigma effect, usually, but amazingly he has gone on, he has gone forward and he is still a legitimate part of Hollywood and a respected and desired (professionally, that is) director. Rodger the elder will not face a dedicated campaign to publicly out him as an ineffective, even racist father, will he?
Shame and reputation and sides that people take and the way things play out is really strange sometimes, unpredictable, not always the slam dunk one might think it to be.
——————————-
Abagond, a post comparing Woody Allen’s purported child molestation vs. the charges brought against Michael Jackson, as treated in the media, might be interesting.
(If the rest of you agree, you will have to second, third, fifth, and fifteenth! my suggestion as I tend to have something of an anti-Midas touch, regarding Abagond’s willingness to take up post suggestions of mine. 😉 )
——————————————————————–
Topicality:
Maybe it’s a little strange/different to bring up Allen; it’s totally different from the Rodger situation but it does tie in to the reputation aspect that Jefe raised.
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@Mary Burrell @Brothawolf @Jefe @Sharina
Wow.Thanks
And yeah I got that Felton’s parentage the wrong way round. As was pointed out it was his father that blk and mother white
@Kiwi
Just read yours and @Legion comments about whites guys entitlement Asian women
http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-have-sex-asian-girls
This is a white guy that breaks getting Asian women down to a science.
I mean – Look – Not being able to get women, feeling of loneliness is a very relatable problem for a lot of guys. I had the same feelings when I was coming up (No-where near to his extent) his problem was that he could not relate others to himself.
He is not the only player
Everyone is a player
And those guys that he thinks of as winning are winning because they are doing what it took to win.
I have met guys like Rodger, non-white guys who would sell their own mother into slavery to have Kate Upton on their arm. Guys and some girls that have a Nazi like attraction to white women or men, maybe Rodger is just a result of what Abagond called the “White is right” programming that everyone is taught
I used to work with people with disablities, yet even they found people to love, what I’m saying, albeit maybe crudely, is that there are people who have way bigger obstacles into finding someone than a young, fit able son of a top Hollywood director, who has never worked a day in his life and is driving a shiny new BMW at the tender age of 22.
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He wasn’t white. He was a misanthrope – that’s why he did what he did.
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Re: THHR
Wow, and he is even selling tips.
And I just can’t get over when he says
So, if one IS an Asian man, it is NOT one of those most enjoyable experiences? What is? Dating and laying white women?
But I think the idea of white men starting to feel like they “own” Asian women is a disturbing trend. White men would get into fights with my father for dating a white woman (50 years ago). Now, I see now they will get in fights with Asian men for dating Asian women.
The ultimate irony for me is – Asian men fought for over a century for the right to bring Asian women to the USA. Once the restrictions were lifted and they came over, they ran right into the arms of white men, the ones who kept Asian men from dating and marrying. Just can’t get over this. SMH
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But, but, but, he was a Nice Guy! Nice Guys don’t do stuff like this! I don’t understand…….
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Yeah, a “Nice Guy!”
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
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@Kiwi,
You know, it almost feels like a conspiracy from the very beginning.
If you studied Asian-American history, you would know that the Page Act (1875) was enacted years before the Chinese Exclusion Act specifically to keep out Asian women, who were all labeled as prostitutes (even though men outnumbered women more than 10 to 1). And then, both men and women were kept out and they added anti-miscegenation laws to exclude Asian men from marrying even in states with exceedingly small numbers of them.
If you recall incidents such as the Watsonville riots in the 1930s, white men actually attacked and killed Asian men for dating white women. (And I think ER actually internalized this mentality.) Did they say that the white men of that era were mentally insane? I doubt it. At least history admits the racial aspect of those incidents, but they desperately try to deny it in the ER case.
When the exclusion acts were repealed, a “few” men were allowed to go to Asia to get a wife, but the general quota was very small, meaning that the numbers of single Asian American women was still very small, But it was at that time that they passed the War Brides Act, allowing white men to bring over Asian wives without being subject to the small Asian quotas — (I think this entitlement mentality already started then – after blocking Asian men from getting Asian women for nearly a century, they easily passed laws that allowed white men to get Asian women, despite anti-miscegenation laws in many states at that time).
The severe gender imbalance persisted until after 1965. When my parents were dating in 1960, the gender imbalance was still very high. Most of the men in my father’s generation would have to go to Asia to get a wife if they wanted an Asian wife (which is actually what many did.) My father rebelled against his parents for that, but many of his childhood friends were forced to do exactly that.
Have you read about Robert Ken (“Bobby”) Woo, the baby that LIFE magazine heralded as the 200th million American born in 1967 (in Atlanta, GA)? He is fairly typical of that generation. His father was born in Augusta, GA (which used to have a Chinatown that traced back to the “coolies” imported to work in the cotton fields and build the dykes / canals in the 1870s.) His mother was brought over from HK. That is what many single Asian men had to do even up to the 1960s to get a wife.
Interracial dating and marriage bans (that persisted until the 2000s) at institutions like Bob Jones University in South Carolina originated NOT to keep black men from dating whites, but to keep Asian men from dating white women. — Check the history of that particular ban. That university hit the national spotlight when Bush did a campaign speech there in 2000 and failed to address its segregation problems.
But by 1970, you see a huge upward trend in Asian women / white male dating and marriage. That is what I mean. As soon as we started to move towards a balanced sex ratio, Asian women became unavailable again. By the 1990s, white men start to believe they “own” Asian women. We have moved BACK to a very skewed sex ratio, and it is worse in metropolitan areas with large Asian populations.
We can trace 160 years of continuous history in the USA of white men trying to control the dating and marriage practices of Asian men. Why this compulsion?
But I can’t put it all on the hands of white men. Asian women can make choices. Well, they didn’t used to. As I mentioned, until the 1960s, many Asian women were selected and forced to marry Asian men as men had very restricted access to dating and marriage. Maybe Asian women, the children of the women who were “forced” into that situation, were unconsciously being taught to rebel against that pressure.
I have another story to tell about my encounter with this issue – maybe I’ll discuss it later.
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I must agree.
The premise that white men *own* non-white women and must save them from non-white men is the history of white male / non-white female in the US. It is just that the “flavor of the month” changes. Or maybe it just depends on what is perceived as accessible.
Ditto with the need to control the sexuality of non-white males, if not kill them off.
It is bizarre, but has been going on for hundreds of years in the USA. It is not something new.
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All right, time to come in and say this thread about a nut shooter is just bringing up the anti interracial bs crap..with heaps of amateur psycho analysis to go around…
as a white man who is in an interracial relationship and raised a mixed race son, the stereotypes and generalisations are starting to get down right into full of crap….
Id love to stand up and say i am the shining exception so please accept me, but, I dont feel im any special case of interracial relationships..and i really could care less about being accepted by the people plowing this crap
funny, there was an Asian shooter at Virginia tech, plenty of white shooters , a black shooter, yet, the one guy who came from an interracial white father and Asian mother, gets this tremendous run through the mud and psychiatric template to judge interracial relationships with mixed race kids
jefe had a traumitised up bringing so he can relate to this nut, but, this nut doesnt represent millions of mixed race kids…he doesnt represent my son , and his statement about “what if i had a gun..” only makes me sarcasticly think “what if i had a gun to shoot some jerk who intimidated me in the 60’s about my interracial dating, including a mixed race Asian who might have a gun wanting to shoot me who was raised in dc..”…sure my son has issues, and im there to talk with him every step of the way..there are a huge amount of kids of all backgrounds who dont have a father to talk to , and it causes great obstacles to overcome…some do , some dont..some are plauged the rest of their lives for not having a father to talk to..and colorisation issues vary in degrees with each person…and how they deal with it…soem people can deal with it better than others
out of analysis of a mixed race Asian shooter…we get back to what is wrong with Asian American women, when the guy wanted a trophy blond…
do you know how many men of all colors are hung up on a trophy blond? How many frustrated lonely males there are out here exactly because of their superficial notions?
this attempt to railroad interracial relationships with white people involved is full of crap…i saw 12 years a slave recently and the rape scene has nothing to do with the dynamic today…
could white people easily marry into Japenese society in the thirties?
I have little sympathy for people who buy into statistics and pop culture cyber space or magizine articles to influence them on how and who to date, or coming to the conclusion that that is the way it is…in the mid sixties when i started dating black women, there were all kinds of stigmas from all sides against me dating black women…i never let any of that bs affect me and being able to hook up with a black women….
and this generalising like there is some white plot to whiten some people, take all the poc women and turn them against there poc men.. and own them..i mean give me an efing break…you dont know white people very well if that is what you think…i dont get accepted in a white world with my mixed race relationship and mixed son…doors arnt all open for them or me because we are together…this just descends into ridiculousness
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@ Kiwi
Funny how during WWII the REAL fears in regard to Asian men was readily illustrated. It always comes down to the same thing.
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If “nice guys” finish last then “h’s must be winning” right? But, i disgress.
I have observed the following about the so called “nice guy”:
1. He has serious entitlement issues when it comes to women (he feels that because he has stuck to conventions, he deserves a certain type of woman–usually one out of his league in terms of values).
2. In many cases, he views himself as a social worker in dating (i could tell she needed me to help her get over her last jerk of a boyfriend and restore her wounded self-esteem).
3. Most “nice guys” would typically not have a problem with finding meaningful relationships with women if they didn’t crave mass appeal. They want to be desirable to ALL women instead of focusing on the ones that they can truly make a connection with.
4. “Nice guys” usually are the ones who date several women at once and have no intention of becoming exclusive for fear that their is something better out there.
5. They compete with other men for women they don’t really want, but just to know that they could get that type of woman if they wanted to.
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In New York City, students must take a competitive exam for admission into the city’s top ten high schools.
Even though Asians account for only 14 percent of all students in the NY City public schools, their academic performance puts them way ahead of most non-Asian students. They account for more than 50 percent of the students at the top schools.
The best high school is Stuyvesant High, where Asians are about 75 percent of the student body. From these high schools, the Asian students head off to some of the best colleges in the country. Whites aren’t complaining or critical of Asian academic success.
However, blacks and Hispanics are critical. They are complaining. They claim the academic game is rigged against them. They make this claim because so few blacks and Hispanics score high enough on the entrance exam to earn acceptance at these schools.
The Asian students seem to be in full possession of themselves. On the other hand, Elliot Rodger was in control of almost nothing in his life, mainly because his elevated student life was way beyond his own capacity to pay for it. He was living in a fantasy land paid for by his father.
His writings? His video? Who cares? Consider what Stephen King writes. Or Shakespeare. Every person is full of wild thoughts and emotions.
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We were talking about Elliot Rodger and to a small extent, his family.
Why do some commenters take that personally and think it is about THEM? And then make it very personal about OTHERS? There is no need for that.
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Kiwi , it has nothing to do with a father being white , it has to do with a father being able to be with his son and talk about his issues…and , with all due respect to Abagond , I dont trust him about his real inner feelings about interracial relationships…he has capped on me exactly about that subject in a way that loses my trust…I dont trust him on American foreign policy critiques also..or abortion …yet , I profusly agree on many of his white racist critiques…is every thing Abagond sais written in stone? Do I have a right to dusagree with Abagond ?
No , Peanut , I dont just attack the Asian males , I have steadily confronted all people piling on interracial relationships , many of my comments get eliminated…you are just seeing what you want to see…I have addressed Sondis and TrojanPam about this and many others
Top of the pole ? Interracialy dating in the mid sixties? You have no idea , Peanut…how about attemted intimidations on all sides…
And , you miss the point that black women had their own reservations dating white men at that time for fear of being stigmatised as too easy…this is proven fact in the black feminist diologue , and I brought in a link proving it , so , my point is , interracial dating in my time was against the grain , much harder than now , but , that didnt stop me at all…so , these statistics as a rationalisation, are a joke to me
Uh , Peanut , if this discusion only staid on Rodgers and his problem , I wouldnt come in here , but , it got to white men want to keep poc men away from their women , what white fathers cant give to mixed race sons and daughters , and what is wrong with Asian American women…again….I have every right to come in here and argue against those stereotypes…because it gets real tired
No , Jefe , I didnt come in on this discusion right away , and , I didnt want to , but , it started to get absurd , and into the pseudo psycho analysis of interracial relationships way past Rodger, with Asian women thrown up again , which is a broken record
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Not only that , Peanut , you have heard on this blog many times over that black women are not attracted to white men , directly from black women on here , and they have no interest in being with them , and , the black women being with white men is one of the low percentages , which has as much to do with how black women feel about it as white men…..and , those statistics and notions dont stop me or deter me one bit …I have no problem hooking up with black women…which is why I scoff at Asian American women dating statistics related to an Asian mans chances to date an Asian American woman
Top of the polé is strictly a cliche , if I want to hook up with a black woman , I have to earn the right….
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@Phoebe
Just in response to your nice guy comment.
I don’t think you could say E.Rodger a nice guy.
But I do think the classic Clark Kent type nice guy is not really that attractive to women truth be told, but everything else you said I agree with
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@B.R
I was in the Army for six years from 18-24. If you are a white male, you have it good as far women goes. The white guys in my unit were not Aston Kutcher type looking white dudes, just regular average joes, not better than I….or least that’s what i thought.
But where ever we were based, where it be Far East, Somalia, Argentina, they are attracted women.
Women came to them, I don’t know, maybe it was the uniform, but it certainly did not help me. That don’t mean to say they won every race, got every women – no – but it did mean that were ever went women (In general) found them the most attractive.
That’s when I started to see what white supremacy is and how it’s pretty much infiltrated all areas of human activity,
and then you say
—
I have no problem hooking up with black women
—
Is that all a black women is to you ? A hook up ? Hump and dump ?
Sounds like a bit of a Donald Sterling mentality, you know, white male with non-white female but still has racism within him.
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re: B.R.’s statement
But when he did weigh in, the first thing he did was make it about HIMSELF and direct personal attacks – not necessarily at arguments, but directly at persons themselves.
Nobody was making ad hominem and personal attacks at anyone. Why come in and start doing that? If the discussion was going somewhere that someone doesn’t like, coming and and making it personal is a surefire way to cause the discussion to devolve and spiral out of control. Don’t be surprised if other commenters start making personal comments about HIM.
It’s like how when Abagond says, “Some whites …(blah) (blah) (blah)” and then people crawl in and think they are saying something about THEM and get all defensive and personal, even hostile.
@Peanut,
Thank you for your effort to try to clear things up, but I think your efforts might get lost on the reader(s) you are directing it towards. I am not even going to try to clear things up, but if you have the energy, go ahead. Just afraid that the discussion will go nowhere fast.
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I was actually piggybacking the comments that Satanforce and King made up thread.
Probably Rodger was not a “nice guy” in his social circles, but he surely shared characteristics with the “nice guys.”
It’s not that women think a kind, thoughtful and caring guy is unattractive–quite the opposite–that is what quality women prefer, however, being a decent man in the dating world shouldn’t get him brownie points anymore than it should get a woman who knows how to treat men with respect. They both want dates from the opposite sex with positive outcomes, so they should do everything to maximize their desirability–i mean that’s the least one can do.
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Hiphop records…what is your problem? You have some problem because I said “hook up”? I married black women twice, raised a mix race son, I dont have anything to prove to you …you just make a statement with out even trying to find out what my relationship with black women has been…if you have a question about my relationships with black women, feel free to ask…dont jump to weak assumptions…I dont have patience with weak assumptions…
your experiances in the army are your anecdotal experiance as my experiances are anecdotal, and i suggest to you that those atractions are as superficial as rogers wanting a trophy blond and dont really mean anything on a serious tip….and , also to you Peanut, white privalige acknowledged , interracial dating in the mid sixties was no joke…and, my hat is off to all the wonderful black women who dated me back then…they were very strong , confident and proud independant black women…a black woman who would want to be with a white man to put down black men or be around white culture would not want to be around me
and Peanut, in every way to answer your statement about what black women have to face,like I said, I have to earn their trust…its as simple as that, that is no bragging about how i can get black women, its saying I have to earn their respect and I know how to respect and treat a black woman
and , Ive said it before to you, if dating white men makes you uncomfortable , or leaves you with uncomfortable thoughts, you shouldnt do it
Jefe, you just brought in all kinds of anecdotal stories, I bring in my examples and it bugs you? I guess you just dont get it….talk about Rogers all you want, analyse him six ways silly, but if there are implications that white people are trying to push poc apart, that white fathers cant really raise their mixed race kids, you ( meaning the other commenters too)need to hear from me, and if you bring in Asian women again in a thread like this…you are just exposing your weakness…
you cant use this guy as some template for what is wrong with Asian women being with white men…and you better get this, I am more than willing to listen to your stories about your life, to listen to the history of Asian Americans, to understand there is white racism against Asian Americans…but , when you start stereotyping and generalising about interracial relationships, you are stepping into territory that is too individual to push into political generalisations…a persons personal dating habits and relationships is as individual as their finger prints or dna…with as many varying situations and circumstances
sure there are people who will get together for all the wrong reasons
what is really stupifying about all this acuasations about white privalage is that anybody that gets in a relationship to up their privalege or for the wrong reasons, its just going to crash on the wall..they will suffer
but how dare anybody pronounce long distance judgements on interracial couples based on statistics , cyber internet bantor and cliched stereotypes that absolutly dont play out in a lot of interracial relationships?
I could care less how anybody dates, but back the hades off these generalisations and stereotypes
man, Jeff the “white people doesnt mean all white people” doesnt aply here…it doesnt aply to model minority, that is a republican talking point, i never heard a white person use it in my presence…honorary whites is ridiculous, there are white bigots who wont accept jews, asians or anyone else , and interracial couples and their kids come in so many varieties and attitudes as there are individuals with differant points of view…you cant break whites down into that when there isnt just some who are differant, but ,huge amounts differant…but you can aply cultural racism across the board, from the racial bigot , to the liberal who doesnt see color but black culture grates against them and they like black people who act white..it goes straight across the board..and you can take that to the bank with white racism against Asians
Asian American women have been shafted up the wazoo in these discusions, they sure have nothing to do with Rogers…yet, these stereotypes get dragged in
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kiwi:
I’ve personally met lots of whites who complained about Asian academic success. By the way, I like how 80% of your comment had nothing to do with Elliot Rodger.
The notion of complaining implies the complainer believes he’s been slighted or injured or mistreated in some unfair way by the object of his complaint. But that’s not the usual white response to the presence of many Asian students.
On occasion whites might bemoan the fact that they’re up against strong competition when they’re competing with Asians for acceptance at highly competitive colleges. As far as I can tell, Asians and whites get along just fine in the US.
However, friends of mine in the high-tech business have had problems with Chinese employees stealing proprietary intellectual property and bolting out the door to China.
Meanwhile, most posts here have gone way beyond Elliot Rodger to examine a hundred different elements that people feel are somehow connected to the psyches of those whose insanity leads to pre-meditated murder and suicide.
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@ kiwi
I think he throws ER’s name around here and there so it would appear he is on topic and Abagond won’t delete it for being off-topic.
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jefe
“Why do some commenters take that personally and think it is about THEM? “—I will refer to a quote that Mary uses and that I think fits perfectly. A hit dog will holla.
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To elaborate the full saying is : Throw it out there and a hit dog will holla.
Which means that you hit a nerve or close to home with them. What you are saying may very well be true and it has to be defended.
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kiwi
Meanwhile, most of your posts here have nothing to do with Elliot Rodger nor are they connected to his psyche
You don’t seem to get it. There is no explanation for insane acts. By definition, they defy explanation and analysis.
Nevertheless, that hasn’t slowed all the armchair psycho-analyzers from giving it a shot.
As for whites who’ve complained about Asian academic success, well, you can go to sleep knowing that what those whites are really doing is admitting, in a childish way, that the Asian students worked harder and earned whatever they achieved, which produced some anxiety in the white complainer, who was not, in fact, injured in any way by encountering a better student.
He was just forced to see the facts, and wasn’t happy about his own unwillingness to work a little harder.
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It is exactly people like you phoebe, and king, the drive guys Elliot to madness, and make my life a living hell of endless torment and temptation.
This may not be obvious to people like you two, but it is women who choose men. I repeat – It is women who decide who the couple will compose of in a relationship. hey make the choice. So it is men who have to put in the hard work.
Men like me and Elliot are used to hard work though. We work at hard at our jobs, hard at school, and hard with the ladies. I’m sure Elliot, like me , always made sure to hold the door open, pull out the chair, and listen to the problems they’re having in their life. Like this one girl I really like, she always tells me how much her girlfriends suck (both literally and figuratively), for about , ahhh, two years now. Yet she still doesn’t get the hints that I give her. Or maybe she is not rational.
But women nowadays don’t want the nice guy who puts in the hard work. They chose masculinity as the prime trait . So Elliot was just acting rationally. By putting himself in a social group made up of mostly Asian males, he basically made himself the most masculine in the group (I have also sought out a lady that would see me as her most masculine romantic possibility). After all, his superior Caucasian genetics would make him the most manly of any group. Its te same thing with me. I mostly hang out with light-skin guys that are about as manly as Justin Bieber to make myself stand out.
Even then he was rejected. And looked what happened. So who really is to blame? The women in our society for being cruel and irrational? The thugs and jocks for being too damn manly? I don’t know, but people like Phoebe and King really need to look deep withing themselves, and realize that life – is a movie. And just like every movie, there is the star , and the star always gets his girl. And if the girl doesn’t want to get with teh star, well, something’s got to give.
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^Sounds like Elliot had a Devil of a time trying to get ladies to notice him!
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@Peanut,
Thanks for this comment
even when the comment is not about him.
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King, I have bad news for you. I will leave it in the comment policy thread.
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@ Peanut:
Where I grew up, there wasn’t a lot of Asians or people of colour in the beginning, but that changed in high school. I had just started dating the few Asian guys that were there. And some white guys also asked me out on a date. When I turned them down, it’s as if they couldn’t BELIEVE I had the NERVE to say no. One even went so far as to call me a word that rhymes with blunt. Not to mention he used several racial slurs and told me to go back to China! Nice fella! How could I rebuff someone so wonderful as that? Sour grapes is all I have to say.
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^ Hm, they thought it was impossible you’d say no. That’s really something.
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@Peanut,
re: your question, I have answered that question many times on this blog, even spilled my guts about it, but it still comes up and people are still confused. I guess it reflects what happens to me in real life.
My father is Asian-American from NYC – his parents and sisters came from southern China in the 30s-40s, but my great grandfather had first come to the US in the 19th century. My mother identified as white and from the Deep South (paternal grandfather from Germany, parts of my French-surnamed Maternal grandmother’s background is a blur – there are some gaps in her ancestry which led me to suspect her parents were hiding their black / native American ancestry and why my maternal grandmother was compelled to lecture me in particular on the need to identify as white to qualify as American.).
But, I don’t think my ethnicity is necessarily purely based on my parents.
Until I was age 6, I thought I was Chinese – mostly raised by my father’s parents in the back of Chinese laundry and learned Chinese dialect before English – even went to Chinese (Cantonese) school at age 6. After starting public school, I learned otherwise, and tried to figure out how to become white, despite growing up in neighborhoods that one by one became majority black. At age 14, I started to give it up, even rebelled. Started learning Mandarin in High school, even joined some black clubs in school. In university, I was officer of the Asian Students club. I spent one summer in Taiwan. In New York, I was active in the Japan society and in a Filipino cultural / drama group and also spent 5 months in Malaysia.
I relocated permanently out of the USA almost 20 years ago, but I had already been going overseas for several years before that looking for a place to relocate to. Now, I have hardly any face to face contact with Americans, white or black (or Latino or even Asian). When I visit the USA, I normally look up my Filipino-American godmother (married to Italian-American, but previously to a man from the Philippines), and my father’s younger sister, who used to be National President of the Organization of Chinese American Women. My parents have been gone for 15-16 years.
But, regarding ER, I recognize that his turning point was at about age 14 too, when he started to become obsessed with being white. At age 14, I was at the bottom of the social totem pole. That is why I can understand what goes through one’s mind at that age. I chose a different path. My brother decided to push himself into white groups, but he was athletically gifted, which helped him gain status with whites.He also did not spend his early childhood in as much a Chinese environment, which made it easier for him to discard that portion of his identity. That is why I have to remind Kiwi that it is not just a matter of how well one can pass – there are so many factors involved.
I think parents of kids who don’t identify as white need to have the “race talk” with them at selected points in their life, but especially at about age 13-14. It seems that most black parents know this, but many others do not. Imagine the white parents of transracial adoptees.
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Peanut , its amazing how you have butchered my position , only heard from me what you want to hear…I have been a huge supporter of black women in every aspect , not the least , defending them against white racism…you have done this before , attacking me for disagreeing with Anas article on black American priviledge in Brazil…like if I disagree with her , I am disrespecting her…i guarentee you , I see through what she is talking about much deeper than you do
I dont think you are reading me correctly at all on this subject …you too , Kiwi , I said by all means analise him and his family six ways silly…sure , his mother is Asian , but , he was hung up on a trophy blond…you can analise the faults in his parents ..and that is seperate from him , but , for sure you could also look at their flaws , and , find context for issues of colorism , unattentive to their sons needs….I never questioned that
I mean , Peanut , just bring in one quote on this blog …just one , where I said colorism doesnt exist …or that white men are innocent from racism if they date black women…just bring in one comment where I have implied that …I have said many times black women should be on guard and have their antenas up…how do you miss that?
I also never questioned Jefe or Kiwis personal experiances , or doubted they suffered racism at the hands of white racism and support their expresion of that
What I wont support from them , or you Peanut , is selling millions of interracial couples down the river , lumping them all up into stereotypes and cliches, lumping mixed race kids , which Jefe is , into one experiance…and , there absolutly isnt enough nuances in your diologues about interracial couples , its blatent cookie cutter cliches….
I really dont know you , Peanut , but I have known a lot of black women personaly , in many aspects , and I have known many black men and women who have interracial relationships , and Im not going to let anyone on here just implicate them by generalised statements that seem to lump interracial sex with white people as colorisation and self hate issues
And , I know only too well that implicating huge swaths of Asian American women for being in relationships with white men this week , means next week , black women in relationships with white men will be on the chopping block , then black men in relationsips with white women , and next month it will be black Brazilian women with white men….as sure as the sun will set in the west…
These anti interracial sex issues were started by white people , they brought in political agendas against it , they brought in the pettyest , shallow arguments against interracial sex….but , the mid sixties activist political agendas that started mandating about interracial sex come off as some KKK neo nazi crud, like some of the anti interracial sterotyping ive read on here
And , leaves the flank open , by taking solid political activist positions , and muddying them up with anti interracial dogma and rhetoric and personal disgrunteled disapointment
Ill say again , personal sexual experiance is unique to each person , its too varied and individual to be lumped into political agendas
And , there is nothing in Rodgers personal self hate , disfunctional family issues that relates to millions of Asian women in interracial relationships , or gives any validity that white people are trying to devide poc from each other , or as a template how white men raise their mixed children , which I suggest is too varied and individual to peg
Peanut you need to really read my comments before you judge them
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@ Jefe
Re your comment to another commenter:
Yes! I know exactly what you mean…
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@ Jefe,
From what you’ve explained, I think that’s why my brother became so tight-lipped about his Asian heritage, too. At least in part.
And, I don’t think our dad had that race-talk with him, either, so he was pretty much on his own when it came to navigating the waters of what to say and be, around black, white, East AND South Asian, let alone any women, of any race.
Thinking back, I don’t think he even realised — or had the self-esteem (?) — to register why he got so much female attention.
I thought he must have known (it was obvious) and he was just being modest!
I see now, that it what was going on inside in his was far more complicated than I understood, and also more troubling.
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*correction
I see now, that what was going on inside his head was far more complicated than I understood, and also more troubling.
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@Peanut
I have mentioned this before, but I hope you do not mind if I take the opportunity to do it again. It is not personal towards you, but a general comment.
All my life, I have had many people refuse to engage with me, or feel very uncomfortable doing so, unless they can determine (to an accuracy level that only they can determine) what my “ethnicity” (/ race / nationality / etc. etc.) exactly is. Even if I spell it out in detail, it still does not satisfy them.
Again I am reminded of many incidents in my life each time. When I moved to NYC, real estate agents would not show me apartments unless I told them my “nationality”. “American” was not a satisfactory answer – they would tell me that they could not show me apartments unless I told them. Even when I went as far as telling them where I was born, where my parents were born, where my grandparents were born and their backgrounds, that was STILL not satisfactory. I would get a reply like “Yes, but what country are you from?” I had to shop around for agents that would not play that runaround with me.
SMH
Maybe you can explain why people often are reluctant or hesitant to engage with people unless they get an answer to that question that THEY are satisfied with. I would never feel the need to ask any commenter anything like that in order to engage with them. Why is it “good to know”?
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Refusal to engage. Obvious discomfort in doing … unless they can determine WHAT I AM.
No amount of detail, or repetiton, will do. It’s never enough to satisfy.
And don’t let’s get started on the opportunities waited for to attack and stomp on people who can’t quite be placed…
YEP. All of my life, too, Jefe.
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Also: “I would never feel the need to ask any commenter anything like that in order to engage with them.”
Seconded. I wonder about that sometimes as well.
That also goes for real life, off-line, too.
I’ve sometimes seen, and experienced, “the hard to place” get excluded, bullied, ignored (often whilst they are in the middle of being bullied), etc., etc.
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I think it’s rude to ask those types of questions but people do it anyway. Jefe and Kiwi and Bulanik you guys have had some kind of experiences. You have a lot to contribute to this discourse in regards to being people of color in a white culture. SMH.
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^ I don’t think there’s much wrong with asking. It is the sentiment from where the question originates that is the problem, in my view. When the background sentiment isn’t innocent curiosity or healthy curiosity, then there’s a problem.
Each time the question has been asked of me on this blog, the motivation for the question was to derail a line of questioning or discussion. In the most hostile case it was to deny my blackness and label me a Jew masquerading as a black person, which was done by the charming and truthful TrojanPam.
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and logical TrojanPam. How I could forget that attribute as pertains to her, I’ll never know. 🙂 😉
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Really , Kiwi ? I got your number , do you want me to start pulling up exact quotes from you on this thead that push this anti interracial crud you cant get out of ? Matari pulled up exact quotes of you and Jeff on the other thread , and nailed exactly what he was saying ,but you and Jefe just went on like you hadnt said it…I see through that bs very well…
Well , look , Peanut , the general tone on this blog in the last couple of years , since it wasnt like that before , has been towering infernos , thread after thread of anti interracial relationship debates , some quite nasty , that you were unnescasarily on the receiving end..in some of the debates…..that really could be described as abnormal…with mixed race kids , up for scrutiny also….Id say Im on the money about needing to be on the defensive about these clichêd stereotypes….
I dont consider you pushing the bs , but , twice now you have made implications about me that are not true and , I have every reason to challenge Kiwi and Jefe about their attitudes about interracial sex , and a litany of false bs they tried to push on me , like thinking Jefe is some foreigner , like Im hiding behind my family , and trying to pin me as anti Asian , which they cant do , so , I dont trust their judgement about me as far as I can throw a bus
And they bury Asian American women relentlessly…id say I have a right to challenge them…what I dont understand from you , is a robotic checking me , for no other aperant reason than I am white….why would yo do that about Anás article ? Imply disagreeing with her is disrespecting a black women by a white man…..which is what i do get acused of in other arguments here when Im making valid points about subjects that have nothing to do with race…you know , the arguments of a white man…without really examining the content
So here we are on a thread about one nut shooter out of various ,the only one out of them who comes from a mixed race background , and that aspect makes him the most analised one of them all…and it serves as a lead in to point out how white people are wedging between poc men and women , and how white men arnt qualified to raise mix race kids….
Id say Im not imagining one dam thing , and read it very correctly…..and you know , I deserve to challenge that…..
And , frankly ,ive pointed out exactly what I want to about it , so . If no one plays some bs game with me , I dont need to say anything else about it on this thread , so anyone can go on and analise Rodgers and his interracial problems all you want to…I never objected to pointing out his individual colorisation issues , and the coldness of his father
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The question “what are you?” Is asked so that the asker can determine just how much respect they have to afford you based on your answer and your subsequent “place” on the racial hierarchy. It determines how much you are “worth”. How much effort they have to put into the relationship. How much trust you should be extended, and all around what can be expected of you. The answer determines whether you are perceived as intellegent, a good person and just plain worth knowing. It determines how hard the asker is willing to work on maintaining the current interaction and basically how much that interaction even means to them. Are you worthy of being a friend? Can a person of “your “racial caliber” even be one? You cannot even “register” until th person is sure of your racial makeup. Until that person knows they just don’t know what to make of you. EVERYTHING is based on how you answer that one simple question, EVERYTHING!
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Reasons Why Satanforce and “Nice Guys” Annoy Me
1. He (Satanforce) calls out “nice guys”
2. “nice guys” pull the “nice guy” card with every girl they meet (even if he isn’t interested in getting to know her)
3. “nice guys” lurk free dating sites, stalking younger and older girls before putting up a bogus profile to go in for the kill
4. “nice guys” are always explaining their many dates with different women as “social experiments” (i just wanted to see if she would go out with me; nothing too serious)
5. “nice guys” seems to know intimate details of the dating/love life of every single (unattached) female they work with
6. “nice guys” begin taking a never seen before interest in, and planning trips, when the going gets rough in the American “dating market”, to places in Asia, Brazil and if he’s a Black “nice guy” Africa
7. “nice guys” are more likely to “experiment” with interracial dating when the “good” women in their in-group keep choosing the thugs, deadbeats, players, and jerks over them
Yeah, Satanforce, did i leave anything out?
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@Peanut
re: @ kiwi,
It was I who asked you the question.
Anyhow, it is not a matter about MY feeling comfortable about the question. I have been asked it so many zillion times that the question per se is not a problem (I attempted to answer it, no?) Actually I was wondering why other people felt uncomfortable about engaging with persons unless they could ascertain to their satisfaction (whatever that meant) that answer.
@Jadapoo1
M-m-mh. So, each person gets assigned a notch on the totem depending on the reply to that question? Maybe if you met them in person, you would ask it again so that you can adjust your prior assignment?
You see what happens – even siblings get assigned different notches and treatment.
Each person’s experience is so complex, it is interesting how you can assign people like that. I never felt the need to ascertain the answer of that to my satisfaction before engaging with a person.
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@ Jefe
I was referring to people like the realtor you described. She was going to put you on the side of town that you “belonged” in based on your answer. There also people that ask this question of my daughter as well. When they find out she is just as one person put “regular black” they suddenly loose interest.
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Well, if my princess is another castle, I just have to keep on moving, amirite? Oh,and,it has nothing to do with women, or even my. errr. I mean,the “nice guys” desire for companionship. It is all about proving their worth to other men who are perceived to be more masculine. Just read Heartiste’s interracial exploits, or Rodgers’ diatribe. The women for Rodgers’ are just “blondes”, while the men are described, and commented on in rich and full detail. Just check this excerpt:
The “nice guy” will do whatever it takes to get his Laura, even if his Myra is right before him. Why? Because the men who he wants to envy him (his narcissism doesn’t give him the sense of self to appreciate respect) don;t care about Myras. That is why he will never be happy. He will give up the person who he can actually be happy with and develop a shared identity with, for someone who is just a trophy for him.
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and
Right. the. freak. on.
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@Jadapoo1
That example happened to me in Queens, NY.
For blacks, many realtors simply refused to show them apartments at all in certain neighborhoods. I had a NY-born Chinese-American female friend that was looking for apartments in same general neighborhood. When they saw that she was planning to room with a university-educated black women, realtors would not show them any. Then they pulled my friend to the side saying “If it was just YOU, or if you picked a different roommate, we might be able to find an apartment for you. But not if the other woman is your roommate.”
For non-blacks, then it came down to whether the landlord felt comfortable with your “race” or “nationality”. Many of the realtors were perplexed about which apartments to show me, and took “chances” that landlords would consider me. But as I mentioned, some realtors refused to show me any flats at all unless they could ascertain exactly what my ethnic/ racial / nationality background was (EVEN THOUGH I told them). For me, the question was “What am I going to tell the landlord?”. Many landlords specified which “nationalities” they would accept and which they would not (ie, after determining that a potential tenant was not “black”). It seems though, that anglo white-identified persons were acceptable to all the landlords.
I ended up taking an apartment in a house owned by Italian-American on a street where over half the owners were ethnic Italian and the rest were 90% white (plus a few non-black (ie, mestizo or white) Latinos). The previous tenant was Korean. But at the same time, the owner across the street rented an apartment to a darker “brown” Indian-American and all the neighbors stormed the realtor’s office demanding that the owner cancel the lease.The realtor had to convince the neighbors that this guy was a university graduate professional working on Wall Street, and besides, at least he was not “black”.
In the beginning, some of the neighbors would not engage with me until they ascertained my ethnic background. The house next door was owned by (self-identified) Irish-Americans, and after 6-8 months, the woman living there finally approached me to ask “my nationality”. She explained that she and her elderly mother had been debating it for months. The woman decided that I “must be” Colombian, but her mother insisted that she suspected that I was “Chinese”. It evidently was driving her NUTS not knowing.
This is was the late 1980s. I thought blockbusting was something of the past, from 20 years before, but I think the Italian-American homeowners really feared that the majority black streets only 3-4 blocks away might spread to their direction. Anyhow, by the 1990s, the street I lived on became 1/3 Filipino and the next street up became about 1/3 Bengali. More Indians and Latinos moved it too. The Filipinos went to church with the Italians and small Masjid opened up in the neighborhood.
The neighbor across the street had a corner lot with small yard that they let grow fallow with weeds, and I asked the owner there if I could plant some vegetables. I planted stuff the Italians were unfamiliar with, e.g., Bitter gourd, asparagus yard-long bean, bok choy, Okra, water spinach / edible morning glory (ie, Kang Kong), “kai lan”, “hairy squash” etc.), plus tomatoes and corn. Indians, Bengali, Chinese, Filipinos, etc. who recognized the stuff I planted would come up to me and talk to me about it. Later on, some of the white neighbors told me that Indians, sometimes Latinos and blacks came to raid my garden.
I read a couple years ago about the residential patterns of NYC. It seems that we can find many “integrated” neighborhoods where whites, Asians and Latinos are found in significant proportions, but where black % are still low, ie, below 10%. We also find some neighborhoods where blacks are the majority, still find some Asian / Latinos, but whites are less than 10%. Very few neighborhoods are simultaneously more than 15% white and 15% black, unless they are in some kind of “transition”.
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@Jadaipoo,
Actually, that whole discussion about real estate agents was a complete sidebar. My point was more about refusal to engage with people unless their ethnic and racial affiliation has been identified to the satisfaction of the person doing the evaluation. And, I find this applies to both blacks and whites (and Asians and Latinos also to some extent). “Steering” by Realtors is just one example where this issue enters into daily life. Employment and “racial cliques” at work is another. There are more.
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@Satanforce,
Re: your quote from Elliot Rodger
I was thinking that his mother was originally from Penang, Malaysia, which was one of the prime destination targets for coolies from the mid-19th century to early 20th century. He is extremely certain to be descendent from these coolies, or Asian slave labour.
Another reason we need to teach this stuff in school.
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Eliot Roger story seems scripted to me. As much as I think it unbelievable that a hoax that big would be almost impossible. I really am starting to believe in the hoax. That video of him is the fakest thing i’ve ever seen.
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@ Jefe
You might find the following post interesting. It looks at girl names and race in New York and what that might say about the model of race New York uses. It dovetails with what you said about residential segregation (Whites and Blacks at the extremes, Asians and Latinos in the middle):
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Thanks. I remember seeing it before when I went through your old posts.
I have to look for the other article I read last year about racial residential patterns in NYC. They always focus on Queens, as it consistently ranks as the most ethnically diverse county in the USA, and possibly the most ethnically diverse urbanized area in the world.
Racially, it is almost evenly divided between non-hispanic white, black, Latino and Asian. I think I remember that no neighborhood actually is that integrated. The few that were considered well integrated were among White / Asian / Latino and less than 10% black.
This reminds me – maybe you should do a post on Queensbridge in Long Island City, the largest public housing project in North America. Residential policies applying to public housing has kept it segregated.
Sorry for getting off track from Elliot Rodger. If continued, probably should switch to another thread.
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Oh, he knew. He just didn’t care. One , he’s working off his father’s line and two, guys like those are really good at lying to themselves.
You are skeptical. Fair enough. I have not done enough to frame the problem of nerd narcissism in terms off young black men in America. Well , the main issue is that we would now shift from race to class. Remember this image?
It is not that the young man has any real attraction to the woman, he probably would not be able to perform with her, socially or otherwise, due to anxiety issues and personal insecurities He is upset that poor, low class hoochie mamas are able to reject him, before he has a chance to reject her. It would be like
It would being chased away by a dirty mentally ill homeless person, instead of him being one to ignore the homeless man, begging , cup in hand. If something like that were to happen to you or me, it would be alright, as we could ignore it , or shake it off. Not him though. He has created an hierarchy of people he should impress, and people who he can nonchalantly ignore. In fact,his fragile sense of identity is based upon this hierarchy, his life’s goal being how quickly he can climb upon this hierarchy. In Elliot’s case, it was race-based, ffor the Black Mean Venter, it is class (being a Good Black Man with a White Woman on his arm.)
Elliot was encouraged by the Internet Misogynist Club, a nexus of forums and blogs that intersect at Reactionary Race Realism, Pick Up Artistry and Men’sRights Activist. But most Black Men Venters and other such wierdoes never get this far.
In the shonen (young men’s) manga Naruto, the villian Kabuto is defeated by being placed in an illusion that forces him to relive all the incidents in his life where he lies to himself in order to cope with his life issues. Only when he stops lying to himself and admits his flaws and weaknesses to himself,will he be able to break free from this illusion. However it can be said that a lot of seinen (grown man’s) manga, such as Gantz,or Holyland, is about getting young men to stop lying to themselves and accept life. So them what would be the industry that invents lies for young men? The shonen industry itself. Not just manga , the entertainment industry as it is directed towards young men.
Much modern media, going back to George Lucas’ Star Wars , is about creating Male Power Fantasies to seal the emptiness and purposelessness in young men’s lives. In fact , that whole Joseph Campbell archetype thing can be thought of as an algorithm for making male power fantasies. Your father is incarcerated/dead/divorced/absent? Don’t worry, your real daddy is actually Anakin Skywalker/the Hokage/a Shinigami Captain, the world’s greatest Pirate. Trouble with the ladies? Don’t worry, there’s actually a shy big-breasted girl who wants to be your lifelong companion (Hinata/Orihime). You fail at everything? Don’t worry, you’re actually Special!! It is your destiny to save the world/be world’s greatest hitman (Wanted), etc These stories are so woven into our culture that most of these young men have subconsciously absorbed these stories into their world-view, thus locking them in an endless illusion, that makes them think they are destined to be great and to automatically climb the hierarchy, only to be disappointed by reality.
I know that I have gone on for a long while, and may even be off-topic, but I hope taht I have clarified my views for you.
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@ mary burrell
Thank you for responding to what Jefe (and I) were getting at, when he said:
Your sensitivity is appreciated.
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@ jadapoo1
Excellent. That’s it, summed up beautifully…
That’s how it works if one can’t be placed, is not one thing, etc…
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@ Jefe
You said to SF re ER’s saying he was “I am descended from British aristocracy. He is descended from slaves”:
SF responded:
Not sure that ER “knew”. Not at all.
And if ER did have an inkling, how much did he really know?
One thing that has come out from looking at “coolies” is just how little even educated people of Asian descent know about Asian slave labour, even if these slaves were their own ancestors.
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Dave writes:
“Eliot Roger story seems scripted to me. As much as I think it unbelievable that a hoax that big would be almost impossible. I really am starting to believe in the hoax. That video of him is the fakest thing i’ve ever seen.”
_ _ _
Yep. It certainly is one of the fakest things I’ve ever seen.
I came to that conclusion after viewing his videos, looking at various photos of him; his father Peter Rodger; Richard Martinez (I also caught Mr Martinez’ press conference on TV; I was amazed at how unemotional he appeared to be); Richard Martinez + Peter Rodger hugged up together; the post shooting black BMW, with its partially blown out windshield, and the covered object lying in the street nearby.
— As of last week when I viewed several of his videos, none that I noticed were older than a month.
— Elliot Rodger makes a big display of his car (there is a very good reason for this) and basically drones on with the same speech in every video. He delivers it haltingly as if he is having trouble remembering his lines, or that acting is something new to him.
— Elliot Rodger doesn’t seem to change his clothing very often from video to video, or from video to photograph.
— Elliot Rodger is a VERY attractive young man and, according to the information given, a very well-to-do one at that. I do not believe for one minute that some good-looking blonde girl would not have dated him. In one video he emphasizes his attraction to girls (“I AM attracted to girls!”), and he most certainly was not shy in approaching them, and did not have to remain a virgin at 22/23 years of age. In one video he places a lot of emphasis on his attraction to girls.
— A few days after the shooting and the death of Richard Martinez’ son Chris Martinez, Mr Martinez and Peter Rodger met (ostinsably for the first time). One photo show the two men in a bear hug; another shows them hugged up and calmly looking into the camera.
— The deli, where Chris Martinez met his death via a bullet through his skull, has their own workers clean up the still partially wet blood stain off the deli floor. The stain is miniscule in comparison to what should have been spilled from this type of wound. Most of the blood is sopped up with a wad of paper towel with large areas of the towel still white and untouched by the blood. There is darkened dried blood nearby with one or more shoe prints evident in it. No brain tissue or blood spray / spatter is evident in the surrounding area. There are two problems here: one, this was CRIME scene evidence that was being tampered with and removed soon after the crime itself (as evidenced by the partial wetness of the blood stain), and two, it is illegal in the state of California for untrained civilians to remove biohazards from crime scenes. That is the work of a trained, hired and highly paid hazmat crew.
— How convenient that Elliot Rodger wrote his life story. It certainly is coming in handy so as to help the public fill in the blank spaces and give background to this story…oops, I mean ‘event’.
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And continued …
— “My Twisted World”. Strange that under the circumstances he would want to lay claim to such as world. To my mind, a title such as, “This Twisted World” would seem so much more apropos.
— The stabbing deaths of the three young men make sense mostly because a stabbing, in and of itself, is a relatively silent form of killing versus the noise of gunfire. Gunfire might alert neighbors, who in turn might quickly alert authorities. Stabbings would buy Rodger extra time to get away and execute the rest of his so-called ‘plan’ (a rather haphazard plan that was supposedly three years in the making). A good screenwriter would think about details such these. Peter Rodger is a director. I’m sure he has contact with several individuals in the business who are screenwriters.
— Since part of ER’s ‘plan’ was to burn the sorority house down after killing everyone inside, it was great (and convenient) that no one answered the door at the house, and convenient as well that three women just happened to approach just as he turned to walk away.
— At the end of the story we do not see Elliot Rodger. What we do see, though, is his beloved black BMW — only this time it’s with its windshield having been partially blown out. Lying in the street nearby the BMW is a covered object, which honestly could be anything. The viewer, however, is being lead to believe that due to the presense of Elliot’s beloved BMW, the covered object near it must necessarily be Elliot’s dead body.
Elliot Rodger’s guns were acquired LEGALLY <– it an important distinction here, as it establishes a need for strict gun control laws.
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My apologies for the typos and misspellings. I did try to glean for them but apparently missed a few.
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@Bulanik,
Completely agree.
The coolie trade is such a hush topic across the Asian Diaspora that NO ONE talks about it. And I am sure that ER did not spend a split second learning about the history of Malaysia and his mom never talked about it. In the US, NOTHING is taught about the history of Asian slave labour.
In fact, it was the British who orchestrated the Indian and Chinese coolie system to Malaysia. It is yet another case of “oppressors” erasing the history of the “enslaved”.
I strongly believe that ER was clueless about being descendent of coolies.
Just thinking about Malaysia:
Can you imagine Malays and other Bumiputera reinforcing their power by telling the Chinese and Indians that they are nothing but descendants of coolies?
And besides Malaysia is one of the world’s main offenders of indentured forced labour in the world TODAY. In fact, there are probably tens of thousands qualifying as modern day slaves in Penang NOW.
Such a political bomb in Malaysia, and is one of the reasons that ethnic Chinese LEAVE (just like his Mum).
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@Pay It Forward
While Peter Rodger is a director, and I wouldn’t put it past Hollywood to concoct a phony mass murder for ulterior purposes, I still have issue with
what I see as making excuses for a mass murderer.
I don’t agree with you that he was attractive, and I don’t think he could get laid with a “good-looking blonde girl” not only because he’s unattractive, but b/c girls don’t always date based on looks alone. And I don’t think any sane girl would date someone as evil as Elliott Rodger.
I don’t think the low-quality and incomplete surveillance video of the deli released to the public is sufficient for anyone to assess a crime scene, so it is still hard to believe your/Dave’s theory.
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Wow @Payitforward.
I didn’t realize it was that deep. I just remembered watching the video of his “Manifesto” and thought it looked scripted to me , especially the fake laughing… “You all must perish and be annihilated bwahahahhahahahah”
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Just found this article:
(http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2008/08/19/Asian-Caucasians_face_mental_disorder_risk/UPI-90861219180094/)
Asian-Caucasians face mental disorder risk
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@ All
Survey Question:
I don’t feel like scrolling up right now but I’m sure my following claim is accurate:
Above (in the scroll) we seemed to touch on an implicit of this thread: Not being or feeling like a success (or just worthy) and what it can lead to (nothing good of course, up to and including premature/violent death, like the Rodger situation).
Now, implicit to that, is the following:
What does lead to feeling/ being a success?
(I was waiting for one of y’all to bring up this topic back in the summer. I thought this sub-topic was pretty much begging to be raised [Rodger did what he did because he became resentfully overwhelmed with what he saw as the failure of his life], but that’s my perception, I guess. Anyway, half a year later, who wants to answer this question. It’s not a competition, of course, everyone will have their own wisdom that leads them to have a certain kind of answer. Oh, and please: NO PLATITUDES! I do so hate platitudes. Platitudes are used by people who are too lazy to think or who are towing a party line of one sort or another.)
@ Linda
Those drug addicts* that you can’t stand; do you notice a common character flaw in all of them?
—————-
* to the reader: mentioned by Linda on another thread. I don’t recall which thread though.
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@Legion,
Your very question leads to platitude replies, eg, Everyone has his own opinion about that, or Different Strokes for Different Folks.
Maybe you can think of a way to rephrase the question that will to a different response?
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Legion @ Linda
Those drug addicts* that you can’t stand; do you notice a common character flaw in all of them?
Linda says,
disclaimer: everyone is different and metabolizes substances differently.
with that being said, common characteristic:
Yes, with prescription drug abusers, they all have chronic back pain and their pain knows how to read a clock and can tell time 🙂
dosage includes frequency of when to take, ex: every 4 hours or every 6 hrs, depending on “if” the person has pain. With addicts, they ALWAYS have pain and it arrives on time
common conversation in the hospital with these professional drug seekers:
“I took a pill at 1200, and now it’s 0355 and I’m in agonizing pain!!!! can I get something?”
“It’s almost 8 pm, I’m in agonizing pain, can I get another Percocet?”
“Its 1155, oh my back, please can I get some Dilaudid, and give me the Benedryl too because Dilaudid makes me itch!”
but not a sound, squeak, or complaint for 3 hours and 55 minutes on the in between… I wish my mail man was as consistent.
Legion, you probably wanted something more profound, but I’m not in the mood right now. Talking about addicts would just ruin my buzz.
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@Legion:
I work around drug addicts and in addition to what Linda says, they are also deceitful and manipulative when trying to obtain drugs, be it illicit or prescription drugs. Every case may be different but there are some commonalities. I can’t stand their whingeing when the fourth or sixth hour comes about when due their medication. The methadone addicts are the worst!
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“The methadone addicts are the worst”
Herneith — No truer words have Ever been spoken.
they’re “Super Crackheads”
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@ Linda
Legion, you probably wanted something more profound, but I’m not in the mood right now. Talking about addicts would just ruin my buzz.
Yeah, I did. But for you Linda, I can wait. 🙂
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@ Jefe
Whatever Jefe, you rascal. You’re just trying to noodle my brain, by putting the issue back on me. Anyway Jefe, you yourself never use platitudes on the blog, which is part of why your comments can be so interesting. (Except when you get seemingly naive about Obama’s lack of leadership on things, that’s for another thread though.)
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@Legion
Nice to see you commenting again. I hope you have been well and did some really good reading. 🙂
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@ Linda & Herneith
The clockwork lying about the pain is kind of funny (not so much to the both of you ,though). It’s so unsophisticated to lie in the manner that they are doing. They’d have a slight ring of credibility if they started complaining an hour before or an hour and a half after the “appointed time”
In fact the very disclaimer that you bring our attention to:
different bodies=different metabolic rates
should let these schemers know it’s a little silly to follow an “appointed time” strategy.
——–
Actually Linda, I’m seeing something more profound than just a few minutes ago. These people are really focused on what they want. “I want! I WANT! <—Childish wanting. We all need to be concerned and in pursuit of our wants, of course, but there has to be a way of going about the pursuit of one's wants. A way of charm? A way that draws others in to want to cooperate with you? A way that does not alienate others?
Would you ladies categorize the manipulation and deceipt of these addicts as childish or more dark and sinister than just childish demanding? (I suppose it's often a mix of both…)
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@ Sharina
Hi doll!
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So much food for thought on this subject…I’ve been looking back on this lately and reflecting.
There are many dimensions to Elliot Rodger’s mentality and why he snapped in such a brutal, destructive way.
It can all be found in the “manifesto/autobiography” he wrote. The divorce of his parents, constantly having to move and switch schools, internalized racism, identity issues, social status in relation to his peers, lack of appropriate discipline, his stepmother mistreating him, etc.
None of this excuses his actions, of course…there is no doubt that what he did was pure evil. He was consumed by hate and he hunted down innocent people without mercy. He had some extremely twisted views about things.
But I will say that in my opinion, most of his issues stemmed from self-hate and internalized racism.
He is often referred to as “white” when in truth he was biracial. He was surrounded by whiteness to the point where he identified with the white part of his heritage only, despite the fact that his Asian mother seemed to care more about him than his white father did.
Nearly all of his friends were white and at one point in the manifesto, he talked about seeing all people with blond hair as superior and desperately wanting to erase the ethnic features he had to fit in.
This broke my heart because I will admit to feeling that way as a young girl. If a person has few positive role models to show them that BOTH sides of their heritage are OK, they will most likely identify only one side as “good” and see the other side as something to be ashamed of.
And if this is how a person learns to see themselves, they will look in the mirror and see the differences as “bad”, something that needs to be fixed.
He was a confused young man in a society that often promotes white as right and he allowed this obsession to destroy him…then he turned it outward into a destructive act against others.
Also, the obsession he had with blondes? I’ve encountered more than a few men of color just like him with the same self-loathing (but they won’t admit it) and they are obsessed with the notion of having a white woman. They are in love with the idea of status and in this country or others like it, a white woman is a status symbol, a way to show people that they’ve “made it” in life. There are beautiful women in every race but to Elliot Rodger and others like him, only a white woman will do.
They have internalized the notion that women are possessions and that to possess a WW is to achieve something great. I even had an ex-boyfriend (who was Black) say this to me (a woman of mixed race)…it is a sickness that runs deep.
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Oh, and I watched one of his Youtube videos where he was whining about seeing “lesser” (mostly other men of color) dudes with girls and “why not meee?”
That screams internalized racism. The fact that he lashed out at other men of color (while denying his own heritage) as “ugly” speaks volumes…this is somebody who hated himself to his very core, despite his claims of feeling superior in every way.
This is somebody who bleached his hair blonde as a little boy because he wanted to look like all the white California kids in his school and his father actually allowed it, instead of wondering why…sometimes it’s not “just hair” but a symptom of growing self-hate and identity issues.
I did the same in high school because some people said I had “n*gger hair” for a mixed girl and I internalized the notion that to be pretty, I needed to look whiter and have straight hair. I was often mistaken for white but my “ethnic” features were sometimes obvious to certain people who made me feel like I was ugly, just for having some Black heritage…truly sad and disgusting. Some of this even came from other minorities. So on some level I understand his hangups about race but I eventually worked at overcoming that and learning to be more comfortable in my own skin.
And I agree with Satanforce 100% about how a toxic part of male culture influenced Elliot’s mentality and his subsequent actions.
The whole MRA movement, MGTOW, red-pill/alpha male/pickup artist bullcrap is extremely damaging to men in my humble opinion. It only feeds on the issues of emotionally stunted men who are unlucky with women for various reasons and instead of helping them to relate to women in healthy ways, it does the opposite.
It operates under the guise of empowering men but it actually promotes the notion that men are victims of “evil” feminism and that women are enemies to be conquered. It encourages violence, disrespect and abuse in many ways although some will deny that. Elliot Rodger’s mentality stemmed from a huge sense of entitlement…something he shared with many other men involved in the MRA and PUA movements.
So much intersectionality in this situation.
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@ Cinnamondiva
Yes it does. And I get the impression that his parents and psychiatrists were clueless about what was going on.
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@Kiwi…you are spot on. This certainly doesn’t apply to all, of course, but based on my experiences and from what I’ve seen…there is a lot of truth in that.
I have no problem at all with interracial relationships; I would be a hypocrite if that were the case.
Sometimes I understand the appeal of different features and all that jazz. And I don’t believe that it automatically means one is self-hating, either. There are some damn fine-looking people (men and women) in every race.
But I do believe there is a serious problem when one starts to worship and covet what one doesn’t have, to the point of sick obsession.
And worse, when a person allows it to poison the way they view part of their own heritage as Elliot did.
He idolized blonde white girls to an unhealthy degree and they wouldn’t give him the time of day. That played a role in his frustration, IMO…he was so close to being included in the “white” world but he was still very much an outsider looking in.
One of the girls he was so obsessed with was your typical bleached blonde California girl from a privileged family. She was cute but there are so many gorgeous girls out there…I guess it shows that to some people, though, blonde and white is synonymous with beauty no matter what.
Some of the ones who worship whiteness or a certain type will always place that above all, even if a stunning Black/Asian/mixed woman is right in front of them.
Elliot complained about not being able to have sex or have more luck with girls but what he wanted were WHITE girls.
If a pretty Black girl or Asian girl or hell, even a Eurasian girl (the same mix as himself) had flirted with him, he might have looked past them to the bleached blondes.
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@jefe…I believe that his mother felt bad about the divorce and the fact he was being shuttled back and forth between homes.
I think she did the best she could, but doted on him a bit too much. That boy had pretty much all the material things a kid could want. From reading the manifesto, it seems that his mom tried to instill some awareness of his Asian heritage…she took him to Malaysia, prepared traditional foods, etc. He was also very close to his maternal grandmother whom he called Ah-Ma.
But ultimately it was his father whom he looked up to. That was the role model he had for masculinity; white male masculinity, that is.
He talked about the first time he met the woman who would become his stepmother after his parents split up. She wasn’t very nice to him, but he admired his father’s ability to “pull” a new woman in a short time.
He viewed the ability to acquire women as symbolic of being a “real” man.
It seems that a lot of men grow up believing this, that to be a “player” is admirable.
And better still if the woman is somebody who meets society’s view of beauty…they can show her off to their friends/families and feel like they’ve hit the jackpot. We see how some men use the rating system when discussing women too, without thought to the fact that women are human beings like they are.
In terms of how his father and psychiatrists might have viewed things, I agree. They might not have considered the racial angle because they weren’t living his experience as a person of color (I see him that way despite what others might say) who was very damaged and suffering an identity crisis among other things.
I look at his identity issues in the same way as his lack of stability in general. He didn’t seem to really belong anywhere. He had times where he had friends, then they would drift out of his life. Sometimes he lived with his father and sometimes with his mother. He went to many different schools and moved from place to place. Some people can deal with that just fine…plenty of Army brats do it. But, everyone is different and it seems his dad was more preoccupied with his new wife instead of noticing that something wasn’t right with his son.
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@Kiwi…I’m sorry that happened to you. 😦 Like I shared above, I experienced similar treatment sometimes although I look mostly white. But with some people, if they see anything even remotely different about you, they will pick on that.
The person you’re talking about might have looked whiter than Elliot but it sounds like he had similar issues with himself, thus the over-identifying with only one side of his heritage and putting somebody else down to feel better about himself.
I’ve known many people like this as well and it wasn’t only people of mixed race. People who engage in that sort of hurtful behavior are deeply damaged. I could see that even as a young girl being scarred by their words, the “n*gger” comments about my curly hair and the sly remarks about other things.
That guy you’re talking about sounds like he had the same mindset as Elliot in terms of race.
In Elliot’s manifesto, he was angry about seeing “ugly” Asian/Black/Hispanic guys dating or even just being friendly with the blonde white girls he so coveted. He tried to play up his white side (while downplaying his Asian heritage) as a way to prove his point about being more worthy of a pretty white girl than those “inferior” guys…you know, with their slanted eyes and dark skin and non-European looks. He didn’t even look all that white himself although the media sees him that way.
In one video he runs his hands through his hair and says: “I’m civilized. I’m sophisticated. I’ve traveled the world. Look at me, I’m beautiful”.
He was obviously trying to convince himself that by virtue of these attributes, he was entitled to a girlfriend. And to me, some key words stand out like “civilized” and “beautiful”. To him, being civilized meant approximating whiteness and having some form of privilege like being well-traveled and his father working in Hollywood. To him, being beautiful (or handsome) meant his white/Caucasian blood instead of being a full-blooded Asian.
Wow, my comment is freakin’ long! My apologies…but this is a case that interests me a lot.
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@ kiwi
I don’t believe race has anything to do with what makes people become mass murders.
The other deflection I hear is mass murders had horrible mothers.
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@Michael Barker,
On this point I will have to disagree with you.
Eurasian males with white fathers and Asian mothers where both parents bash Asian males would be particularly vulnerable to snapping like this. There is a psychological burden that they have to bear that might be just too much for some.
And if you read Elliott Rodger’s manifesto, you would see that race was a factor, at least in his mass murder rampage.
Of course, 99% will not snap like that, so we can only consider the potential for a higher propensity.
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@Kiwi. Hitler wanted the economic wealth that the Jews had accumulated over the centuries within Germany. Race was the excuse.
In this paticular case race played a factor along with his hatred of women.
As far as bias within Eurasian relationships that affect their children I’m no expert and here in Southern California where their are a lot of IR relationships it’s not something that’s obvious for me to observe.
Their is plenty of brown/black racsim that I can see happening everyday here.
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@Michael Barker,
Elliot Rodger’s own father was completely oblivious to the racial turmoil that his son was experiencing. That was in Southern California.
The racism is certainly different from the brown/black racism that others may witness in Southern California, but it is nonetheless very virulent racism indeed. The fact that so many are blind to it means that it undoubtedly goes unchecked. And it is something that mass media written from a white male perspective would be unlikely to detect.
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Elliot Rodger’s had deep seated issues that stemmed from the stereotypical power balance of his parent’s interracial relationship. White male/Asian female relationships are the most common interracial pairing in the United States. However, these couples often form out of ugly racial stereotypes of Asian people being more feminine and submissive as a whole. White people stereotype Asian people as being biologically and culturally more feminine and black people as masculine to make themselves seem “normal”. Mainstream stereotypes of black people being more masculine as a whole is also a reason why black women are often viewed as the least desired race of women in America. Similarly, stereotypes of Asian men being more feminine is why Asian men are perceived to be the least desirable race of men. Many male children of white male/Asian female couples who grow up to be Asian looking eventually come to learn that the majority of women of all races generally will not even look at them twice. It is psychologically damaging to Eurasian male children that they are the living bi-products of Asian male emasculation in the fact that their own Asian mothers explicitly preferred white men.
Asian women who marry white men often do so out of self-hate. In white male/Asian female couples, often both people actively look down on Asian men. Asian women and white men come together because white men are sick of black men having sex with liberated post-60’s era white women and Asian women buy into the idea that white men are better. A huge to dominant percentage of Asian American women marry white men. What message does this send to a half-Asian/half-white boy who is rejected as being just another Asian man by white society?
Eurasian men are often perpetual outsiders and outcasts unless they can pass as fully white 100% of the time. It doesn’t help that most Asian Americans do not accept half-Asians as being Asian at all. Many East Asian countries are the most ethnically homogenous places on the planet, so the denial of mixed race Asians as being authentically Asian comes as no surprise. It is ironic how the most accepted interracial pairing often breeds one of the most universally rejected groups of men in our race-obsessed society.
Although Eurasian men are often attractive, their positive traits are often overlooked and ignored as most people in America strictly socialize along racial lines and the Eurasian male is an outsider everywhere he goes. White people and non-Asians see him as just another Asian and all of the stereotypes that go with it and Asians see him as a weird-looking half-breed outcast. Even though many white girls who said Elliot was handsome in his Youtube comments after his death probably would have ignored him in real life if he was a fellow student at their college because he probably would never be included in their immediate social circle. Or many of those same white girls would have been grossed out after finding out he was half Asian.
It was no shocker that someone like Elliot went off the deep end. In America, most people access instant social privilege just based on their race. In terms of sex and dating, heterosexual Asian men are the most disadvantaged. Simply looking like the cool guys off of TV will get you girls in America even if you aren’t cool like those guys. A black guy from the suburbs will clean up with the women if he looks and acts like some popular ex-drug dealer turned rapper. But Asian men are never cool or sexy in America. Asian men are a punchline held up to ridicule. Even Asian men who are tall, handsome, well-dressed, muscular, successful and even rich will be forever reminded that they are inherently inferior in terms of sexual selection based on their race alone. Black women bear a similar cross as many successful attractive black women are perpetually single.
Elliot wanted to kill the Asian part of himself when he killed his roommates. His story is not a case of a sick mind, but an updated tragic mulatto who had internalized white supremacist values.
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@ Kiwi
Why do you think that David Fry is, in fact, an Eurasian man?
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@ Crossbreed
@ Kiwi
@ munubantu
Here’s an article on the “Eurasian” type: https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/eurasians_more_attractive_than_ugly_caucasians_not_average_caucasians_a_rep/
Most of the commenters are pseudo-scientists in training aka “little Carleton Coon and J Philippe Rushtons.” There are Asian commenters defending the full-blood Asian phenotype. What’s so hilarious is that White folks really believe that they know non-White people better than non-White people know themselves. LMAO!!!
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A case similar to Elliot’s happened again.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/11/03/us/tallahassee-shooting-yoga-studio/index.html
Those cases draw our attention again to the fact that the male/female line is not always easy to cross by some members of our species. See more thoughts in, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
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