% of Jews killed during the Holocaust
The Holocaust (fl. 1941-1945) is the name commonly given since the late 1950s to the genocide carried out by Nazi Germany under Hitler.
Also known as:
- Nazi: The Final Solution (to the Jewish Question)
- Jewish: the Shoah (Hebrew for “catastrophe”)
- Yiddish: The Third Destruction (the First and Second destroyed the First and Second Temples of Jerusalem, in 587 BC and AD 70).
At least 9 million died. Using conservative estimates:
- Jews: 5 million. A figure of 5 to 6 million can be arrived at different ways, so it is pretty solid. Holocaust Deniers have to account for how over half the Jews of Europe disappeared in the 1940s and showed up nowhere else. Hitler saw Jews as “vermin” bent on taking over the world through control of Western finance, labour, media, etc. Hitler, proud of his “process of disinfection”, said in 1945 that, “The world of the future will be eternally grateful to us.”
- Soviet prisoners of war: 2 million.
- Slavs: 1.82 million, mainly Poles. Slavs were “subhumans” who were taking up land where Germans could live. Hitler wanted to wipe out at least 65% of the natives in what is now Poland, Belarus and Ukraine by 1970.
- Romani (Gypsies): 220,000. The Bohemian Romani language became extinct.
- Mentally disabled: 200,000.
- Freemasons: 80,000.
- Spanish Republicans: 7,000.
- Homosexuals: 5,000.
- Jehovah’s Witnesses: 2,500.
- Leftists: ???
There was no policy to wipe out Blacks.
Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp in southern Poland. Most of the big death camps were out in the Polish countryside.
Before they died, many worked as slave labour for the likes of Hugo Boss, Kodak, Siemens, Volkswagen and BMW. Others became subjects of sick medical experiments. None were turned into soap or lampshades.
About 811,000 Jews fled from 1933 to 1943, Einstein and Freud among them. Half went to the US, Palestine or Britain.
Left behind were millions of Jews in eastern Europe who lacked the money or connections to leave.
Anti-Semitism in Europe goes back at least a thousand years, but it had become markedly worse in the late 1800s. By 1881 Jews were being racialized: you were still considered a Jew no matter how assimilated or even Christian you were. Aryanists divided Caucasians racially into Aryans and Semites.
That allowed the racism Whites had used to practise slavery, genocide and colonialism overseas, and which now had the full support of science, to be turned in on Europe itself.
Add to that state power: In 1933 the Nazi Party came to power in Germany.
The yellow star of David that Jews were made to wear.
The Nazi Party moved towards genocide step by step: it demonized Jews, defined by law who a Jew was, took away their citizenship and civil rights, kept track of them (with the help of IBM), moved them to ghettos, etc. But the decision on the Final Solution – complete extermination – probably did not take shape till late 1941.
Jews soon discovered, and Tutsis later found, that one of the shocking things about a genocide is how little the outside world seems to care. While most people did not find out till 1945, top people in Germany, Britain, the US and the Catholic Church, people like President Roosevelt and Pope Pius XII, knew – and did surprisingly little.
Hitler was not surprised: ever the student of history, he had the Armenian and Native American genocides before him as models.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
- Holocaust
- Jews
- Hitler
- genocide
- The eight stages of genocide
- Armenian genocide
- The Herero and Nama genocide – also carried out by Germany
- The term “native”
- democide
Abagond 
If you’re interested one of the best books I’ve read about this is: “Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland”
Another really good one is: “Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory”
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Why is the West so obsessed with this particular genocide and not with others? I apologize if I sound insensitive or offensive…I live in the East…….
Is it simply good propaganda or does the Jewish status as honorary whites make it particularly bad—the message being its ok to kill people who are not “white” but not ok to kill “white”…and would this perhaps partly explain Israeli behavior/mindset?
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@ kiwi
Ok—thanks
…but….Jews were Semitic and therefore not white at some point right?……
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The Namibian genocide, also by the Germans, was another model for Hitler to use.
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@anon,
I agree with Kiwi that Jews in the USA bypassed the honourary white stage. They went from not quite white “despised other” straight to ordinary white.
Honourary whites are those that were never white, and still aren’t, but were accorded some white status, ie model minority.
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But I do agree that the West is overly obsessed with the Holocaust to the exclusion or minimalization of other genocides. Is it due to some propaganda machine from the survivors, eg, the Jewish diaspora?
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@ anon
I think there are several reasons this genocide gets way more attention in the US than others. In no particular order:
1. It was the largest genocide in living memory.
2. It was carried out by an enemy state.
3. Its victims were White by US standards, especially from the 1950s onwards.
4. Many cultural workers in the US are Jewish: teachers, writers, journalists, scholars, film directors, television producers, etc.
5. At least in the north-eastern US in the late 1900s, you are/were way more likely to know people whose families were affected by this genocide than by others. That makes it seem way realer than anything in a book or on television.
In my case, my high school world history teacher was not just Jewish, her family fled Poland because of the Holocaust. A friend of mine has told me family stories – about the Warsaw Ghetto!
On this five-point scale, the Holocaust scores a 5. The Rwandan genocide scores a 0.
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The Nazis proudly filmed these atrocities carried out against fellow humans, I cry every time I come across one of those movies of bodies being dumped in a huge hole in the ground or seeing the soot rising to the sky from designated human ovens. These soul-less genocides still go on currently in various parts of the world. I just don’t fathom such cruelty.
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6. Anne Frank.
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By White American standards the Jews were perfect victims: White, defenceless, innocent and not a victim of White American power.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/18/the-perfect-victim/
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@Abagond
REALLY?
Then why do we have so many commenters bringing up the Asian Atrocity arguments about how many tens of millions the Japanese killed in China, or how many died in Mao’s Great Leap Forward / Cultural Revolution policies and even call those genocides? Both of them dwarf the Holocaust.
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Hitler killed himself. But the U.S. continues atrocities. Vietnam’s government says that 400,000 people were killed or maimed from the after effects of the Agent Orange drops, and 500,000 children were born with birth defects.
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@ The Pragmatist
I do not know if Hitler knew about the Namibian genocide.
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@ Jefe
Those are not genocides, strictly speaking. Stalin helped to give genocide its meaning in international law, so his own atrocities were excluded. It gets Mao off the hook as well.
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Well, since the International law on Genocide was not set until 1948, with specific reference to the Holocaust, that means the Japanese genocides in Asia (primarily in China) don’t count either. Neither does the Native American genocide or anything preceding WWII.
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What also sets the Holocaust apart in the minds of many Westerners is, that it happened in the midst of “civilized Europe”. In Germany we often talk about the Holocaust as a “breach of civilization” and that that makes it unique. So the Holocaust is something completly different than some barbarians killing each other or getting killed by Europeans.
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Just a thought I have long had, for the benefit of deniers. Even if there were no gas chambers, every other element of the holocaust would remain in place. Under those conditions, millions would have died nevertheless. Transportation. Forced labor. Camps. Starvation. Exposure. Other depredations.
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I found it interesting that this post includes in the Holocaust all the carnage that took place during the WWII, with the possible exception of soldiers directly killed in the military confrontations, and I found it interesting because in some literature Holocaust means, in strict sense, the genocide of the Jews.
One of the things that all that carnage – in the core of Europe – meant for the people in the periphery of Europe was to show that Europeans too were capable of barbaric behavior, in contradiction with their supposed “civilized” status. They could not claim anymore to be morally superior to anybody else.
But convictions of European moral superiority remained or returned later nonetheless, and I remember a conversation I had with a Portuguese friend in the 90’s, during the Yugoslav war, when news about atrocities there, began to emerge. He was astonished. How could it be, in the center of civilized Europe such primitive behavior. He said: now it seems we (Europeans) are like you (Africans), generalized killing of civilians, rape, torture, all the package! And even with all the great European powers around no solution was in the horizon to extinguish the flames. America had to intervene to restore order!
The bottom line – “how the Europeans became humans like everybody else”:
– Japan’s rise to a technologically advanced society demolished the assumption that only White people could be the carriers of modernity, science and technology;
– Jesse Owens and others, specially black athletes in the first half of the XX century, demolished the assumption that White people where physically better than other people;
– the Holocaust and the rest of WWII demolished the assumption of moral superiority of the West vis a vis the “primitive” periphery of Europe.
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I don’t know how the news coverage of the Rwandan genocide was in 1994, but nowadays it’s probably one of the genocides we hear most about. Also I don’t think it’s wrong for Europeans to be more interested in the Balkans than in Central Africa, the former Republic of Yugoslavia bordered Austria and Italy. For Americans that’s a different story.
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Abagond, there are International Red Cross figures which dispute the 5m (5-6m) you mention.
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The film “Walking with The Enemy” about the invasion of the Germans in Hungary. The film is set in Budapest. I view this film at a film festival in my city. It was inspired by the true story of Pinchas Tibor Rosenbaum. A very brave man. It had me on the edge of my seat.
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“The Boy In The Striped Pajamas” is a good film.
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if i may add. there are several aspects that make the holocaust unique and explain why it took such a central place, not based on the insinuations that it is because the jews control the money and the media ( if those claim comes with awareness to its premises or not) :
as long as other genocides were made far away, in different and supposed “lesser” cultures”, the European mind could still see itself as the most “advanced” and “enlightened” culture, but now it was done in the main living room of the supposed “advanced” culture, not in the back yard, but in the very center of civilization.
that was and is still a wake up call to the white christian European soul. in fact, if the “enlightened” culture wouldn’t have close their eyes and hearts to other genocides maybe it wouldn’t have made it’s way into the center of Europe. and this is the tragedy to be learned: if assuming the non humanity of others, just because they are far, or others in cultural terms, you will one day wake up with this attitude knocking at your own door.
and it was done not buy some small European culture, but one of the enlightenment movement main forces, the germans. and to those who under the guise of enlightenment were supposed to be equal citizens. if before jews were not allowed to own land, higher education and so on, now they were supposed to be equal to the Christians around them.
another aspect is the systematic annihilation and documentation, and all based on a race theory that presented itself as scientific. other attempts of genocides were done while trying to hide its footsteps. here it was declared and took pride in, because it was based on an almost metaphysical distorted world view.
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How chumpy anyone would think my arguments about multi millions eliminated by communism were ever a deflection
or some referance to Asian atrocity , which never was my term in the first place…quit the bs trying to railroad comments into an anti Asian got you moment
I also never called it genicide …looks like the ignorance is on the foot of anyone who would try to railroad my arguments that way
What kind of pettyness tries to tie these seperate arguments together, the holocaust is one thing , multimillions eliminated because if Marxist ideology is another , I have no problem seperating the two , what kind of creepy semanticle juggling tries to make this an argument ?
Jews as honorary whites is another strange notion , since white racist bigots dont accept jews , Jewish people were talked about much worse than Asians, I heard as much bigotry against Jewish people from biased whites , as bigotry against black people
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my ex-wife’s grandmother was a polish jew, she was there in 1939, unfortunately i didn’t have my act together to write her story, and i lost all my notes, but she got out through russia, it is a wild story.
she said the germans just rode up on motorcycles one day and started ‘shooting up the town’
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with machine guns
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Anyone with half a brain cell working knows that the Nazi’s seeking out Jews to eliminate, because they were Jewish, is differant than multi millions being eliminated because they didnt want to be communist…these multi millions included all races and religious faiths…persacuted because of an ideology and the people in power eliminating masses of people ..
The communist eliminations deserves a catagory all on its own and is the reason the cold war happened…yet gets sluffed over in most anti American foreign policy critiques..as though they werent really happening or werent a major factor in that conflict
making statements about communist eliminations under Mao,or mass starvations because of bearocratic ideological flawed practices under Mao, sound anti Asian is pure bogus semantical manipulation
and “anti semetic” is a misleading term. its straight up “anti Jew”…in my time, you didnt hear a lot of anti Arab sentiments, except for oil rich Arab jokes…only when the Olympic hostage situation happened did people start paying more attention to mid East dynamic, except for Jewish people who knew about it in more depth..
but,”anti semetic” back then, really meant anti Jewish…
and, the story of the other people eliminated in the Holocaust , is as important as the Jewish eliminations, and, doesnt get as much attention…but, there is no reason to diminish the Jewish eliminations to point out the other eliminations…they all deserve attention..
anti Jewishness is alive and present today
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@ dorisjean23
And yet you have these Holocaust deniers with their ridiculous comments saying nothing like that really happened. Or if it did, it was some doctored film made up by the Jewish media to put Nazis in a bad light. Why would Jewish folk film their dead being dumped like garbage? That doesn’t even make sense.
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ah man i been said this in the (latest) hitler thread, my first ‘thought vibe’ off that one was the north african campaign, rommel, all that? and he got the italians in eritrea/somalia/ethiopia.
hitler was a nut, convicted criminal, from austria, just a figurehead on the machine like anything else these days!
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You dont get it , Kiwi, there are a lot of bigoted whites who dont like Jewish people…period..a lot…
this “acceptance” is more a political talking point and i dont buy into it…. the same as the “model minority” as some white outlook…it is a Republican talking point, I have never heard on the ground any white person use Asians as a model minority argument against blacks…
How many “gypsies” are in the USA?
You seem to be throwing out the “jews run hollywood and the media” mantra
Jews have been talked about much worse than Asians in America, from where I lived…where you are may be differant…but , I just dont buy into these blanket cookie cutter statements that mostly are about Fox news white people
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http://nuclearmangos.blogspot.com/2006/10/radioactive-dimes-in-lebanon.html
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“Jews have made fun of my race”, i don’t doubt there are racists jews, i know some myself, but you cannot jump from a personal experience into a universal statements, that is the basic tactics of bigotry and racism.
and the most important thing:how does going after another group of people with a huge history of persecution and hatred, even if assuming they ALL are so successful going to help you you with the Asian issue? are we to understand from you that jews control all aspects of life and are responsible for the status of others?
instead of bashing one group against the other, isn’t a better solution is to promote humanism, reduce the influence of religion and race at a systemic level?
Christians made fun and killed my ancestors, so would i be right to generalize about them all? is that even a serious thinking process?
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maybe abagond should give br a mao thread! get it over with
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@anon
“Why is the West so obsessed with this particular genocide and not with others? I apologize if I sound insensitive or offensive…I live in the East…….”
Well firstly, this particular genocide happened in the west and not the east. People tend tot care more about what happens close to home rather than far away. Secondly, Germany was one of the leading states in every aspect of western civilization. They were the embodiment of human progress.
The West has an ethos of perpetual human progress. Germany was an exemplar of of western, social, material and cultural progress. Such mass liquidations of peoples and cultures were supposed to be the purview of Mongol Hordes, not the homeland of Bach and Beethoven.
Germany proves that human nature has not changed one iota from that of the Hordes. Germany is an example that while scientific and technological advances require socially cohesive states, the often imposed cohesion is an unstable illusion – a bargain waiting to be broken. Getting along with each other for the sake of material advancement does not make us ‘good’ or morally superior to cave-men, just better organized. Beneath our technologically advanced modern veneer we are no different than the Mongol Hordes.
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Not all the deaths listed in the post would count as genocide:
1. Genocide: Jews, Slavs, Romani
2. Political/military enemies: Soviet POWs, Spanish Republicans, Leftists, Freemasons, Jehovah’s Witnesses
3. Eugenic: mentally disabled, homosexuals
I doubt Hitler saw much difference between #1 and #3.
Jehovah’s Witness could count as genocide (the definition includes wiping out religious groups), but he probably saw them in political terms.
The better term for what he (and Stalin and Mao) did is democide, mass murder by government:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/democide/
I could have made this post about just the Jewish genocide part of the Holocaust. That would fit in better with my other posts on genocide. But given how the non-Jewish victims are constantly left out, I thought they should be listed.
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Just as the West was moving into a scientific, technological and material golden age after 1500, it was moving backwards into a spiritual and moral dark age. So this “breach of civilization” thing did not start in 1933 or 1941. It was already plain as day by 1700, but racism blinded many to it. Hitler merely drove it to its logical conclusion, rubbing White people’s noses in their own sh!t.
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@ munu
Good parallels. Thanks.
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@ v8driver
I think you are right.
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@ Abagond
I agree, the Holocaust wasn’t a breach of civilization, but consistent with german and european history. It merely peaked. But that wasn’t the way people looked at it after WW2.
Actually the West didn’t reach the material golden age until much later. There is much evidence that the average standard of living declined between 1500 and 1700.
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“Hitler was not surprised: ever the student of history, he had the Armenian and Native American genocides before him as models.”
There is a story that Hitler had a picture of Walter Plecker in his office. Plecker was a Virginia physician and the head of the Virginia vital statistics who waged a campaign to ensure the racial purity of Americans. Since the Removal of 1830, it was illegal for Indian people to live in the south, it was legislated that there were only two races, white and black. By that logic, anyone claiming Indian blood on their birth certificate was actually black, and as far as Plecker was concerned, this Indian descent was only being claimed as a ruse to ‘pass’ for white. He went after many Virginia families who claim Indian descent and changed their racial category to ‘black’ so that they would not be allowed to marry whites (then illegal). He also went after any families who had any trace of black ancestry, regardless of how they now appeared, which led to them being ostracized by the communities they had been a part of.
His ‘diligence’ in this regard culminated with the forced sterilization of Carrie Buck http://www.saponitown.com/eugenics-carrie-buck/eugenics-carrie-buck.htm following the Supreme Court case that legalized forced sterilizations. White people in those days couldn’t tell the difference between someone who appeared ‘Mongoloid’ due to Indian or Asian descent and someone ‘mongoloid’ as in Down’s Syndrome. She had one daughter before her sterilization who died at seven. She was an honor student.
Regarding Hitler’s intents towards the Slavic people of Europe, Serbians are apt to point out that the present map of the Balkans is precisely what Hitler had drawn up as his intent for the region. The present map came to be in the Nineties, following the machinations of the West, the US and EU. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waEYQ46gH08) Basically, that map has appeal to the West because it has divided and conquered the pathway into the East — to the Slavic and Middle Eastern peoples. Every superpower goes after that arrangement. I have a PTS’d friend who lived through that war and refers to it as the NATO Invasion. She came here twelve years ago and went to college. She chose a black college because those were the Americans most familiar to her. It’s common for Serbians to refer to the US and EU as the Fourth Reich.
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“It’s common for Serbians to refer to the US and EU as the Fourth Reich.”
Perhaps for extremly nationalistic Serbs (by Serbian standard, which says something). Most Serbs I met were pretty emberasse about such nonsense.
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“In Spite of Everything I still believe people are good at heart’ Anne Frank, Bless her in the midst of all the horrors and death she still remained optimistic.
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kiwi writes:
Apparently, their bigotry hasn’t stopped the Jews from dominating Hollywood and the Ivy League, both of which are screwing over Asians.
Jews “dominate” Hollywood? No. But Jews are a major presence.
Jews “dominate” the Ivy League? Again, no. Initially the Ivy League set quotas on the number of Jewish students that would be admitted. Too many Jews were outperforming the WASPs in high school.
Meanwhile, for the last 20 years Asians have been the top performers in high school. Every Ivy League school has stated that Asian high school achievement is so high that it would be possible to fill the entire freshman class every year with only Asians.
So now the Ivy League has instituted quotas on Asians. Of course, it’s done in the interest of “diversity.”
The student body of the top public high school in NY City — Stuyvesant High School — is about 75 percent Asian. Everyone must pass an entrance exam that’s similar to the SAT.
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I am linking a pretty good article about the Ivy Leagues, Harvard, and Jewish and Asian students, I found this article while researching colleges for my daughter. The top endowment colleges such as Harvard offer the best scholarship money if accepted but the small mindedness is not worth the money they offer.,This very same approach to admission for Asians today was used to eliminate Jewish applicants.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge?currentPage=all
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kiwi,
The stories about whites complaining about the large numbers of Asians on campuses boils down to some anxiety that the Asian students are going to outperform the white students. They’ll be the ones to “break the curve.”
The complaint isn’t an expression of personal animus toward Asians. It’s about saying, “uh-oh, now I have to work harder for a good grade.”
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kiwi
Ivy League:
http://thebilzerianreport.com/racism-in-the-ivy-league/
The article misses big. Jews may be 2% of the US population, but all the Ivy League schools accept students from around the world, which means Jews coming from other countries are in the mix.
In any case, the core of the article is all about how Jews are over-represented relative to their percentage in the overall US population, which really means very little.
What matters is the criteria that gains an applicant admission. All potential students are measured by the same yardstick. Jews do well. Before Jews were a significant presence in Ivy League schools, many NY City Jews attended City College, otherwise known as “The Harvard of the Proletariat.”
Frankly, there ought to be more interest in WHY Jewish and Asian students do well. It seems there’s an undertone of dislike and envy of those who stand out from the crowd.
Meanwhile, just so you know the Ivy admission success isn’t a fluke, Jews win Nobel Prizes (the serious ones, not the Booby Peace Prize) at a phenomenal rate. No other group is remotely close.
On Hollywood — Brando’s moronic quote. Every shyster lawyer in the movies is Jewish. And the “Breaking Bad” TV show made a huge character out of “Saul Goodman” who’s about to become the star of a spin-off — “Better Call Saul”.
There’s way too many examples of scheming Jews in movies. Brando should have kept to reading scripts instead shooting his mouth off.
Regarding the list of studio heads in your link, which was from 2008 — half of those guys are gone from those jobs.
Anyway, noting that Jews are prominent as Hollywood studio heads is a little like saying whites are prominent in the top management of the NBA. So what?
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@ Biggiefreiz
The West has an ethos of perpetual human progress. Germany was an exemplar of western, social, material and cultural progress. Such mass liquidations of peoples and cultures were supposed to be the purview of Mongol Hordes, not the homeland of Bach and Beethoven.
If obsession with holocaust is to commemorate that “whites” can be uncivilized, then I would have thought that the European theatre of WWII would be the thing to be obsessed about (60 million killed)……..?….are the degrees of interest in holocaust and WWII similar in the West?……
It could be—as Abagond mentioned—- that Germany was the enemy therefore highlighting the “badness”/ genocide of the enemy may be more convenient?…………..
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Correction—it was supposed to be in quotes….
“The West has an ethos of perpetual human progress. Germany was an exemplar of of western, social, material and cultural progress. Such mass liquidations of peoples and cultures were supposed to be the purview of Mongol Hordes, not the homeland of Bach and Beethoven.”
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kiwi,
You’re right, the complaint isn’t an expression of animus towards Asians. It’s an expression of animus towards Asian academic success.
No. Absolutely wrong. Envy, maybe. Anxiety. But whites know Asians are getting those grades the old fashioned way — hard work.
But you don’t hear complaining about white academic success. Funny that.
You obviously don’t live in NY City. The complaints are endless. Here in NY City the public school runs a Gifted Program. The largest percentage of kids in the program are white. Next are the Asian kids.
These facts drive black parents to distraction. They say the system is rigged, and they claim their kids lose unfairly.
Of course, it’s not rigged. In fact, there’s a lot of leeway given to black and Hispanic kids. Kids enter the program in kindergarten, and by third grade, student performance begins to deviate by race. The Asian and white kids are the leaders, and the black and Hispanic kids are the laggards.
This program is the feeder for the competitive middle schools, which require students to take an entrance exam. At that point, a big division occurs and the top middle schools are mainly populated by Asians and whites. At the high school level the imbalance gets bigger. There are 100 high schools in NY City, About 8 are competitive schools that required the SAT-like entrance exam.
Those schools are 50 percent to 75 percent Asian. Almost all non-Asian students are white. Only a handful of blacks and Hispanics attend these schools.
It should be noted that overall, the student body of NY City public school system is about
30 percent black,
40 percent Hispanic,
15 percent white
15 percent Asian.
Black parents are demanding a change in the admission policy of the Gifted Program. They want their kids to get in no matter what. But making the entrance test easier would lead only to a greater number of whites and Asians getting in, So, yeah, there’s plenty of complaining about white academic success.
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Well that is real funny, V8 and Abagond, since , it wasnt me who brought up Mao…now was it?
Its also funny that you would miss who brought that up here,and endorse a snide comment towards me about mentioning Mao…yet both of you have provincial critiques of American foreign policy, and any referance of why America might have been doing what it was doing in the cold war , the real reason America got down and dirty, is notacably absent from both of your running diologues about American foreign policy…which, for an American living in a foreign country, with anti American sentiments by some there, with blame and rationalisations up the wazoo about the cia around every bush , and some waving commie flags and breaking public property that the common person uses , it makes many of your observations , quite frankly , sound naive…v8, especialy your Boko Haram cia nonesence,
and , Abagond, it was you who made up the “Asian Atrocity” moniker…never was my intention..it was always to shine the light on the bs of Marxism…
Yeah, Kiwi, bring in a quote by Marlon Brando , which is pretty dated, but, its funny, you look at the real truth and it really makes me wonder at your entertainment industry statement,since, Sony Corporation is one of the big few mega corporations that run the planet…talk about the elephant sitting in the room
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The real message , Kiwi, is, this “hororary white” thing is weak, because it doesnt play out on the ground with many white bigots who dont like Jews..so its a flawed way to really analyse it….
The only way to really deal with it, is on its own terms , its own story, same with the Asian story…you have to recognise the cultural fault lines…the differances in each groups cultures and their defences and offences….
These flawed social studies theories only will get tangled up wihen it gets down to the nitty gritty, but , if you define the bigotry and prejudice for the truth of what it is underneath…only then will you get the concept that fits over each situation..
trying to pass Jews off as accepted by the white community but Asians not, except as model minority , etc, only will get tangled up and trip over itself…each group has its own story, own dynamic , and cultural fault lines its dealing with ….trying to lump some together and exclude others, will only end up conflicting down the line
Black Americans and Jews used to be locked arm and arm in the civil rights struggle up until the mid sixties, and a new black American political agenda changed that….it was really just saying that the black American story had to be dealt with on its terms…
all these other social study, social strata, model minority , which group is officialy white etc…only ends up falling on its face under the weight of its naiveness
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…and by the way,Abagond and v8, I would be extremly happy to not have to come in here to argue about “Mao”, in the first place , on a thread about the Holocaust, and that was my point…wtf are we talking about Mao on a thread about the Holocaust…I didnt bring it up!! but im not going to let people get away with some cheap shot about it
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they never refer to the communist regime under Mao like I do, they mostly mention the Japanese massacers of China…you give it a rest
and my point about Brando and to you about the entertainment industry is Sony Entertainment Corporation is a big player…so why are you making some big claim about Jews having some huge power in the entertainment industry, when an Asian company is a big player?
its you making the weird statements about Mao and Jews in the entertainment industry , Kiwi…not me
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…it was v8 making the snide comment and Abagond endorsing it..
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at least you have to get, Kiwi, that I need some explanation about your statement about Jews in the entertainment industry when Sony is a big player…thats all…it doesnt add up the way you are putting it…you have to clarify it in that light
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In 1948 Israel became a “state” to Jewish Holocaust victims. In 1978, thirty years later, another Adolf Hitler (in the name of Jim Jones the pastor) performed a “genocide” on a black congregation in Jonestown, Guyana.
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With all due respect to Jewish Holocaust victims and its descendants, but the worst “holocaust” in the history of mankind was the Ma’afa (Great Destruction).
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Kiwi, I never said there wasnt racism against Asians in the American entertainment industry…that is definitly true
Im just saying that you cant say Jews have a lock and own most of the industry, and that is what you were implying…and Sony Corporation a huge contradiction to what you are saying
of course Jewish people have huge influence , but, you cant just imply they are the big players, there are a bunch of big players and the ultimate desicians that go down in Sony , the top desician making ,are going to be Asian calls…
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@Kiwi
That is a GREAT retort. 😛
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@King Kat
Thank you for the New Yorker link.
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@Kiwi
Agree that the remark about Jews coming from around the world was completely weak, as the USA has more Jews than any other country, including any majority Jewish state.
I do wonder that, if we subtract non-American counts from those schools, how many Asian Americans are actually admitted. Is it really way in excess of their proportion in the population?
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@ Kiwi
I think a list of White American Jews would make for an interesting post and would also serve as an intriguing social experiment if you included a poll asking commenters which ones they already knew were Jewish.
Of the list of celebrity names you gave, in your linked Django Unchained comment (response to Jefe), I only knew that Streisand was Jewish. The rest were quite a surprise to me (although for some reason, I feel that in the case of the Gyllenhall’s, I ought to have known, they were Jewish). I don’t get this “ought to have known” feeling with any of the other names you gave.
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…it was v8 making the snide comment and Abagond endorsing it..
Karma is a bitch!
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But a stereotypically jewish looking person probably wouldn’t get the role either. It seems more to be an example of the better ability of jews to pass as Anglo white than their acceptance as “real American”.
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Whan I said “stereotypically jewish” I meant “stereotypically european jewish”. Busted!
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[…] Jews soon discovered, and Tutsis later found, that one of the shocking things about a genocide is how little the outside world seems to care. While most people did not find out till 1945, top people in Germany, Britain, the US and the Catholic Church, people like President Roosevelt and Pope Pius XII, knew – and did surprisingly little.Hitler was not surprised: ever the student of history, he had the Armenian and Native American genocides before him as models. […]
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Ok, I misunderstood you. I thought you were calling me out for calling “stereotypically european jewish” stereotypically jewish.
The look i call “stereotypically european jewish” is the way they are depicted in anti-semitic pictures (look at wikipedia “Stereotypes of Jews). Of course not even the majority of european Jews look like that, but that picture is still in our head when we think about jews.And my argument was that somebody remotly looking like that wouldn’t get the Cpt. America part either.
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@br no offense but perhaps you need to expand your angst about mao’s regime and current left-wing politics in a contiguous and cogent pattern
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kiwi:
That applies more so to Asians. And by that, I mean billions of Asians vs. millions of Jews, a thousandfold difference.
You got it backwards. Even if every seat in every class at every Ivy League school were occupied by an Asian student, the percentage of Asians — relative to the global population of Asians — in the top schools worldwide would still amount to only a rounding error.
Anyway, whites aren’t troubled in a bigoted way about Asian academic success. As I stated, the worst that can be said is that whites express some anxiety due to the heat of real competition.
Whites, including Jews, are more likely to receive support, like money or connections, which play a huge role in winning Nobel Prizes, regardless of merit.
Money, other than research grants, isn’t the key to winning Nobel Prizes in the tough subjects. But academic and intellectual freedom is.
Muslims don’t win Nobel Prizes except in rare cases, almost always because the muslim prize-winner lives in a non-Islamic nation. Anyway, when it comes to Nobel Prizes, Jews lead by miles.
That’s a little like saying Nazis are prominent in the top management of Germany. So what?
You’re not too good with the analogies. The head honchos in Hollywood and the heads of the NBA do not murder those they oversee. Anyway, the Hollywood guys are around for a while. Then they go, usually because their companies lose money long enough for the boards to unseat them.
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kiwi:
The irony of this is that after World War 2 and the Holocaust, especially after the Jews assimilated into the white American mainstream, the same people who were persecuted by WASPs turned around and started doing the exact same thing to another academically high performing group, Asian Americans. The Jews learned well from their white oppressors, having become Whites themselves.
You already pointed out there are billions of Asians and only millions of Jews — about 15 million, if you want to know.
If there’s a group that’s keeping Asians out of top US schools, it’s blacks, the large percentage of blacks accepted at top schools despite having SAT scores and grades far below the stats for Asian students who are not admitted.
The Ivy League adds 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of blacks. Thus, Asians should pick up where Alan Bakke left off.
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@sb32199
“Jews “dominate” the Ivy League? Again, no. Initially the Ivy League set quotas on the number of Jewish students that would be admitted.”
Actually Jews are overrepresented at Ivy Leagues given their SAT scores, GPA, National Merit scholars, representation at Math, Physics Olympiads, etc. have actually gone down since the 80’s while the #’s for Asians have risen since the 80’s. Yet there is an informal ceiling of 16% for Asians at Ivy Leagues. Here’s an article from conservative Ron Unz on this subject.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/at-the-ivies-asians-are-the-new-jews/
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/19/fears-of-an-asian-quota-in-the-ivy-league/statistics-indicate-an-ivy-league-asian-quota
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@Kiwi,
This is slightly veering off topic, but just wondering, have you seen the movie “Transformers: Age of Extinction”? I just saw it a few days ago. I am afraid that this might be a sign of Hollywood movies in the future.
Plot-wise, it is really a poor movie. I concur that it deserves negative reviews. YUCK.
BUT …
* It is the highest grossing movie now so far in 2014
* It is the highest grossing movie EVER in China.
Obviously they are trying to appeal to a Chinese market, with the 1/3 of the movie taking place in “China”. I put China in quotation marks, because anyone who knows the geography will notice that in the movie the mountains of Sichuan are just a short helicopter ride over the hill from Victoria Harbour in Hong Kong, and the street scenes in HK are a hodgepodge of actual scenes in HK, of Detroit and Chicago and of fake places in Mainland China. They have a couple of famous mainland Chinese entertainers in the movie, as well as some brand names recognizable by mainland Chinese. And the dialogue in Mandarin is worded carefully to conform with Mainland Chinese political sentiment.
But, you might notice some other things:
– All of the American characters are “white”. No blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans – seems like a stereotypical America that conforms to both white American AND (Mainland) Chinese stereotypes.
– the Chinese characters fit American stereotypes
– Chinese street scenes and landscapes fit American stereotypes
– About 15% of the dialogue is in Mandarin and 5-10% in Cantonese.
– All of the Asian characters are either HK or Mainland Chinese people.
(Arguable exception – half-white American born Michael Wong, younger brother of Russell Wong, has a cameo role as a HK police officer. But he has played HK police officer before in HK films in the past 25 years but not in any US films
2nd arguable exception – Ken Watanabe plays a Japanese samurai autobot).
– it fits nicely with the American stereotypes of alien attackers and American white people fighting the war to save the world.
Since China is the growing market for Hollywood films, I think the future blockbusters will involve China somehow. And I think the “American” characters will likely be all or mostly white to conform to American stereotypes and not to offend mainland Chinese stereotypes of the USA. There will be even less future opportunities for Asian Americans (and blacks and Latinos) in this industry. They will have to do their own non-Hollywood films.
And given that Hollywood films will be doing half their marketing in Asia, they will probably never do an Asian Atrocity themed movie.
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@kiwi
http://newsone.com/3039326/captain-america-black-man/
A black dude is going to play capt. America now
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Kiwi , again , you are missing my point…
The lack of Asian American actors , and stories , in the entertainment industry, is the Asian American problem , and , its a mistake to tie it in with Jewish influence in the media…it does tie in with cultural racism in the USA , directly how it affects Asian American…and that is why you have to deal with that on its terms….its bigger than Jewish influence…trying to blame this problem on Jewish ownership gets strange when you note Sony is a big player…by looking at the direct problem of cultural racism against Asian Americans , and the “no story” in the Asian American depictions , then you really hit at the direct problem , not Jewish influence . Black Americans and stories are better represented in the media than Asian American stories…and , what I try to convey to you about my experiance where I grew up is , that this no story was the real problem than any model minority referances , or perpetual foreigner…
I would suggest a Jewish person passing for white is going to have a rude awakening one day , and most Jews know that
Legion , karma , my rear end , you say something misleading about me and I see it , and I have no problem getting in your face about it….cut the bs
V8 , I have been stringing along a focused and vigilant narration of how Mãos communist China eliminations and deaths , along with all the other Marxist eliminations in the world , tie right into all the cold war critiques of American foreign policy , and the weakness of the far left diologue all the way up into today, and I get beau coup training dealing with the constant hypocracy I see in the far anti American left down here , on a frequent basis…check out the Hugo Chavez thread , check out how I point out Noam Chomskies flaws about South America…I mean , I have been pointing this out constantly on here , you just dont want to hear it ,so you focus on me defending my position on here about Mao and I didnt bring it up…if you ask me , Mao is derailing this thread….I consider myself left leaning , by the way
I would suggest to you to research the whole story about what happened in the cold war instead of just paying attention to one sided critiques
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^ It’s a nice trick to see others’ offences against us but not ours against others. “Nice work, if you can get it.”
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@ Kiwi
Well, a lot of German Jews thought they were Germans, too.
@ B.R.
If you don’t mind me asking, what do you mean by “left leaning”? By American standard, like a moderate Democrat?
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Kiwi,
Even though most Jewish Americans can simply pass as white in the USA, it is not quite so simple process as you make it out to be. There is a psychological gulf to cross for a Jewish person to hide his Jewish identity to pass as a non-Jewish white. For some, the gulf is small, but for some, it can be quite tremendous.
Now, if a person with Jewish parent(s) who were raised as non-Jewish, it might be easier. I bet it was a lot easier for Michael Douglas than it was for Kirk Douglas.
Maybe it can be somewhat likened to a part-white black person or part-white Asian who does not personally identify as white, but who is able to pass as white, and then decides to do so, while hiding their non-white ancestry.
Malcolm X said (sorry to bring him up again, but it is relevant) that the most severe racial mental anguish must be faced by those blacks who decided to pass as white, and pretend to be white even with their spouses and children.
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@Kiwi
and many tried to, but could not. There is always that risk that they might be found out even if they tried to pass.
We have several precedences in the USA. They used census records to track down Japanese Americans during WWII, and some kids with 1/4 Japanese ancestry got interned.
We also have the precedence of the Ivy leagues which tried to identify whether people were Jewish or not 1920s-1940s. It was complicated as many Jews had changed their names, but they still were able to root many of them out.
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kiwi
You mean blacks are in charge of the Ivy League? Well, I’ll be right on my way to go complain to those black administra- oh wait, never mind. I meant those white Jewish administrators.
Quotas. It’s one thing to draw the line when a school is inundated with extraordinarily qualified applicants. But it’s another matter entirely, to balance the highly qualified with the unqualified.
Meanwhile, the number of qualified Asians is way too large to be accommodated by the Ivy League. Qualified Asians could fill every Ivy League school and more. It’s not likely anyone would argue that 100 percent Asian enrollment is the way for the Ivies to go.
On the other hand, if unqualified blacks were no longer accepted, the Asian presence would undoubtedly rise and at least equal the Jewish presence.
However, private schools can admit students for any reason they like, so unless a new angle for admissions develops, it’s likely the current Ivy League demographics will persist. It seems to me Asians should petition the schools, highlighting the fact that unqualified, undeserving candidates are too often accepted.
Lastly, university presidents don’t choose the students to be admitted.
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@anon
“If obsession with holocaust is to commemorate that “whites” can be uncivilized, then I would have thought that the European theatre of WWII would be the thing to be obsessed about (60 million killed)……..?….are the degrees of interest in holocaust and WWII similar in the West?……”
Firstly:
In my opinion europeans/whites don’t see themselves as white, just standard human. They are the default normal, typical human. They are universal. Therefore, the Germans doing what they did is not an example for whites that ‘whites’ a can be uncivilized. It’s an example to humanity, but of what, that’s debatable. And therein lies the obsession.
Secondly:
WWII is a far more analyzed historical event than the holocaust, at least in America. Its not even close. The amount of press, movies, books and events given over to WWII commemoration dwarfs the holocaust. That said, the holocaust gets a lot of attention. And in my opinion the attention is twofold: a voyeuristic history channel type fascination with destruction and suffering. And it’s made for TV because so much was documented and up until recently there were tons of survivors and perpetrators to interview; and, because it lends itself to academic discussion about human nature or the nature of evil or whatever you’d like to use it as an example of. Abagond uses it as an example of white evilness coming home to roost.
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“In my opinion europeans/whites don’t see themselves as white, just standard human. ”
That was what I experienced when I crossed the color line as an 18 year old girl, in Chicago ca. 1970. That’s what the privilege of being white is, you’re just a person living your life, and that’s what was lost as I became a racial object on many levels, from many directions.
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jesus christmas kiwi
http://screenrant.com/anthony-mackie-falcon-captain-america-2-winter-soldier-sandy-188526/
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i guess i got the story line wrong wtf the last movie i saw in the theater was sleepy hollow
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To make a living space for the Germans. Because they believed they were the “master race.” This is just one of many atrocities committed on humans.
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I picked my way over corpse after corpse in the gloom until I heard the one voice that rose above the gentle,undulating moaning. I found a girl,she was a living skeleton,impossible to gauge her age for she had practically no hair left on her head and her face was a yellow parchment sheet with two holes in it for eyes.”BBC war correspondent Richard Dimbley at Bergen-Belsen concentration camp(1945) This is from one of my personal reference books.”World History Demystified European History.
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@v8driver: That made the morning news in my city.
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Legion, you dont get it, offend me all you want, Im not complaining, Ill just be in your face…just dont blame me for harping on Mao when I wasnt the one bringing it up…you know, I can take it, but other people can dish it out but cant take it…you have dished out some really bogus things about me, by the way…
Kiwi, left leaning in, I dont buy into Republican talking points , I dont think Obama is a socialist or that social programs are socialism, and I desire them in a capitalist system with a concience
I dont support unfetterred predatory capitalism , I want more regulations on the military industrial complex…I want corporations held accountable…I want everyone to have a fair chance in their educational systems and in the job market
I pretty much dont buy into any points by white racists or white race realists, Ive backed Abagond consistatnly on this,and, quite frankly , my comments about the realities of Afro diasporic culture, its histories , its origins and how profound and valuable it is to the human trajectory, are out of the box thinking and radicle compared to any university thinking you can find out there….forged in personal deep immersion and serious travel and research and self taught
what I wont buy into from the far left is that capitalism is all bad, I am interested in the real history of what happened in the cold war in a place like Brazil where I have chosen to live and love, and because they have a cold war history, I have been hyper exposed , so , I have charged into finding out the truth about what happened ..and learning about Brazil opens up truths about the whole cold war…and everything happening today , also, in how people will blame America for everything that happens
and every year I live and research, I find out how despicable communism is and Marxism , the lies, the absolute disgusting dogma and rhetoric , that is underneath so much anti Americanism, and people dont even know they are just reading off stale Marxist propaganda pages
I just dont buy into the march step half truths and lies that make up so much diologue about American foreign policy…and that includes from the right
and i feel the far left , running their lies and half truths, does the left serious damage by pushing the rhetoric and dogmas and taking attention off the real truths
naive people think all this died when the Soviet Union colapsed and the Berlin wall came down, and China became authoritarion capitalist…where do you think millions of American haters went after this? People who invested huge amounts of their emotions into screaming for communism and hate for capitalism and its bastion , America?
I feel very fortunate to be down in a country like Brazil, where close up, for the last year, I got to see a few commie flag waving, black white skinned bloc, anarchistic , mostly students, come out in the streets in Brazil and turn peaceful protests into violent breakings of public property and things the real people use…up to the point a reporter was killed by these chumps throwing large explosives at the police….and in the violent demonstrators, they always had people waving commuinist flags, wearing communist tee shirts and yelling anti capitilistic phrases…when the people in power in Brazil are the red flag working party and the head of the sports commitee is from the communist party…and these kids are being taught and learn this crud from somebody…they didnt pick it up hanging out together…they got brain washed
I dont try to say America isnt dirty, I know America plays dirty on the world stage…just like everyone else…in the cold war, unless people admit that everyone is to blame, the super powers coming in and the conflicting parties in the countries that beckoned these super powers to come in…then the discusion is flawed half truths and lies, only looking at what America did with no referance to what was happening on the other side….all sides were to blame
and i dont have to pass some peoples test of whether I can consider myself left leaning or not…I dont need some stamp of aproval or acceptance…same with fighting racism…im not waiting to be accepted to fight racism that does affect me and my family out in this world…as well as bias from all sides…
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@miss mary b well it first came out on the web like he was actually playing captain america, i actually don’t read comic books, i never got into it
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@br people cannot be denied medical care due to non-sufficient funds like what is going on here in the us
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@br until we as civilians can bring accountability to the government and infrastructure it will be a problem to trust them!
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There a many narratives to the holocaust genocides just like the narratives of slavery. Since Black and Jews and Asians are oppressed people one would think we could all get along. I guess that’s just to utopian.
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^^^^naive and utopian^^^
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they’re probably afraid more of ‘people who look like me’ might actually be friendly with ‘people who don’t’ rather than them! they’re not doin such a good job
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na kiwi you’re busted on that one, don’t even try to get out of that one
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“There a many narratives to the holocaust genocides just like the narratives of slavery. Since Black and Jews and Asians are oppressed people one would think we could all get along. I guess that’s just to utopian.”
The thing is, if you go looking for it, there are people from various oppressed groups getting along and sticking up for one another. What about Goodman and Schwerner? What about Andre Schwartz-Bart? I know you’ve never heard of him. He wrote the best passage on the Middle Passage ever written, but he would be a perfect person in the 20th century to write about that after the cattle car trip he took to Auschwitz. Pure poetry. Much better than the autobiographical stuff he wrote on his own comparable journey. But that had a lot to do with who he was in love with.
And then there’s the story that in the days of Hoover’s Cold War FBI, agents would be trained to spot Communists by looking for white people who were perfectly comfortable around black people. LOL Why do you think Paul Robeson liked Russians so much?
There was that Irish Union guy in the south who was a highly visible supporter of the Movement.
And there was Stanley Levison who King talked to on the phone in the wee hours of the morning, discussing strategy, all the time. Stanley did a huge amount of the fund raising for SLCC.
And of course we can’t forget Stanley Ann Dunham, First Mother of the Nation. How was she oppressed, other than being given a boy’s name? She belonged to that tiny group of Americans who only get to play one part in the movies, and it isn’t First Mother of the Nation. I’ll give you a clue with that ‘best line’ ever for that part. It was in that Terence Howard movie. The line went, “My job sucks.”
Who else is there? I’m not asking rhetorically. What other examples are there of oppressed people who rally to the aid of other oppressed people?
Actually, if you get to listing all the examples, there’s a hugely disproportionate number of Jews on that list. It’s just a fact. In the generation of Jewish-Americans following the holocaust there was an enormous outpouring of support for the comparable persecution here. A lot of angst found expression in that. Jewish commitment towards the liberation of other oppressed people I don’t think has ever been surpassed. Who else?
I have to admit, Serbs aren’t too bad. The percentage of Serbs who sheltered Jews in WWII was very high, But then they would relate, given all the Krajina Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia who had to wear blue armbands with the letter P on them before getting rounded up in the same cattle cars being used at Auschwitz. And there was that Serbian guy who moved to Australia, married an aboriginal woman, joined her tribe and wrote about the culture. And when Japan suffered that hurricane and nuclear accident the first chunk of money that got to them was from Serbia. When they found out how poor Serbia is, they were flabbergasted.
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@LKC
Yep, we did, maybe around 1945-1970. We even found a lot of Jewish-black families (eg, Lenny Kravitz, Lisa Bonet, Maya Rudolph, many many more). Sammy Davis, Jr. embraced Judaism.
Many, if not most, of the white anti-racists during the Civil Rights movement were Jews.
But it seemed like post 70s, most of them just elected to be white. Otherwise, we would have seen them embrace their black-Jewish children to a much larger extent, but we don’t see much of that.
One of the costs of becoming white – leaving your mixed race children behind.
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“One of the costs of becoming white – leaving your mixed race children behind.”
Yep, white people passing for white. A sorry business. Seems seamless on the surface, but the closet is full of emotional baggage that never gets unpacked.
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J”ust as the West was moving into a scientific, technological and material golden age after 1500, it was moving backwards into a spiritual and moral dark age. So this “breach of civilization” thing did not start in 1933 or 1941. It was already plain as day by 1700, but racism blinded many to it. Hitler merely drove it to its logical conclusion, rubbing White people’s noses in their own sh!t.”
Very succinct analysis and conclusion.
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@ Abagond
Not sure either. But I’d speculate that Hitler had, at the very least, a clue.
For one, Hermann Goering, Hitler’s 2nd in command and close confidante from early days, was the son of Heinrich Goering — and Heinrich Goering was Nambia’s colonial governor.
It strikes me as very likely that given Hitler’s outlook, Hermann Goering would have many opportunities to tell Hitler about his father’s experience of fighting the Herero and Nama and how these 2 groups of inferior peoples were finally “subdued” during and after his own father’s governance…
Secondly, Hitler read “The Principles of Human Heredity and Race Hygiene” whilst he was in prison, citing it as an inspiration to his own ideas of so-called racial purity.
That book was written by Eugen Fischer, the man eugenics is named after. Many of Fischer’s conclusions were arrived at AFTER he visited Namibia, where he did his field-work on the offspring of the Herero women raped by German troops, including medical experiments he conducted on these same children. Again, I believe that Hitler could not have been in complete darkness about the conditions under which Fischer had made his “discoveries”.
Also, there’s the Hitler connection with Franz Xavier von Epp, himself a veteran of the Namibian genocide, who recruited the young Adolf Hitler into right-wing militia in Bavaria in the early 1920s, and introduced the him to an elite who’d one day control the Nazis.
(Even the uniform of Brownshirts — the paramilitary wing of the Nazis — was based on the brown-shirted colonial army’s gear…)
http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/topics_fs.pl?theme=41
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Kaisers-Holocaust-Germanys-Forgotten/dp/057123142X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405820871&sr=8-1&keywords=the+kaisers+holocaust)
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[…] Jews soon discovered, and Tutsis later found, that one of the shocking things about a genocide is how little the outside world seems to care. While most people did not find out till 1945, top people in Germany, Britain, the US and the Catholic Church, people like President Roosevelt and Pope Pius XII, knew – and did surprisingly little.Hitler was not surprised: ever the student of history, he had the Armenian and Native American genocides before him as models. […]
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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During WWII when a dictator took control… You have to understand that amidst the Nazis were those that conformed to survive. You think all of them would go along as for not thing about themselves and their families. I bet half these guys feared everyday that if they were outspoken or deviated from Nazism them and their entire family would be ostracized and possibly killed. It’s what happens whenever a dictator takes control or rebel army ect… You lose your sensitivity to humanity somewhere along the way. Look at the troops behind Mugabe, Ill Jung Un, the guy in Myanmar, Rasputin, etc etc.. Conformity is maintained with fear and brain-washing.
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I would love it if commentators here, particularly those who voice irritation with Jewish lack of empathy for, and/or attacks on, other oppressed people, would lend their support to this organization, Jewish Voice for Peace. They are opposing the attacks against Palestinians. They need signatures for their petition.
http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Please show that you are doing more than just flipping hostilities and will acknowledge and support those who step out against the grain as the ‘real’ Jews.
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@Abagond
“5 million. A figure of 5 to 6 million can be arrived at different ways, so it is pretty solid. Holocaust Deniers have to account for how over half the Jews of Europe disappeared in the 1940s and showed up nowhere else. ”
That figure is mathematically impossible. Collier’s Encyclopaedia said there were 5,8 M in Soviet Union in 1938 and Chambers Encycl. said there were 6.5M in Nazi occupied territories. Yet Collier’s claimed 2,2M Jews escaped Nazi Europe to Soviet Union in 1939. That leaves us with 4.3M for Hitler to exterminate. But wait, West Germany counted 3,4M Nazi survivor claimants.
If you examine history, they’ve been throwing around the 6 million figure even before WWII occurred, and Hollywood has just perpetuated that myth.
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Resw77, from where did you get your figures?
The Vatican estimated that more than 9.2 million jews were living in Europe in 1942 (thus, just before the Holocaust really started).(see http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box52/a467cg01.html)
The Germans themselves were thinking about 11 million. See http://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf-wannsee/texte/protocol.pdf
So where do your figures come from?
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@Jeff Elberfeld
Precise numbers are going to be hard to find: even the German and Vatican figures you provide show a discrepancy, too. I also take the view that more than half of European Jewry disappeared simply because they were killed.
As for numbers murdered by the Nazis, it will be VERY hard to say precisely how many lives were destroyed. Take a place like Auschwitz (Oświęcim) in Poland: researchers simply do not know the numbers of people killed, because probably most of the inmates were not registered. After all, weren’t the children and elderly marched off to their deaths the moment they arrived, for starters?
Train and deportation timetables are one way to track some of the numbers, and are “more reliable” indicators of numbers because it’s tied to cliches about German are “thoroughness” and “effiiciency” recording record-keeping, and all that — but were ALL the records and documents preserved?
This I doubt.
There are Poles from Oświęcim that say their older relatives remember that the grounds of the camp, and beyond, were laid, and dumped with, with the ashes and pounded-bones from the remains of burned bodies, and long buried over.
This was done to destroy evidence of the true numbers killed.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
Precise numbers are going to be hard to find: even the German and Vatican figures you provide show a discrepancy, too. I also take the view that more than half of European Jewry disappeared simply because they were killed.
As for numbers murdered by the Nazis, it will be VERY hard to say precisely how many lives were destroyed. Take a place like Auschwitz (Oświęcim) in Poland: researchers simply do not know the numbers of people killed, because probably most of the inmates were not registered. After all, weren’t the children and elderly marched off to their deaths the moment they arrived, for starters?
Train and deportation timetables are one way to track some of the numbers, and are “more reliable” indicators of numbers because it’s tied to cliches about German “thoroughness” and “effiiciency” about record-keeping, and all that — but were ALL the records and documents preserved?
This I doubt.
There are Poles from Oświęcim that say their older relatives remember that the grounds of the camp, and beyond, were laid, and dumped with, with the ashes and pounded-bones from the remains of burned bodies, and long buried over.
This was done to destroy evidence of the true numbers killed.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
Clearly you didn’t read my comments well. I SPECIFICALLY said where I got my figures.
While your two sources are shady, they don’t contradict the figures I’ve given, which adds up to over 11 million Jews in all of Europe in 1938. But as we know, not all of Europe was under Nazi occupation, just certain regions, which is why it’s important to know how many were both under Nazi occupation and did not escape.
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@ Bulanik
“As for numbers murdered by the Nazis, it will be VERY hard to say precisely how many lives were destroyed. Take a place like Auschwitz (Oświęcim) in Poland: researchers simply do not know the numbers of people killed, because probably most of the inmates were not registered.”
As far as I remember the numbers of the concentration camps like Auschwitz are pretty accurate. The problem are the people who never got to a concentration camp, but were murdered in i.e. Treblinka or during the swipes behind the troops in Ukraine and Belarus,
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@ Kartoffel
Did you actually read my post?
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@ Kartoffel, have read Sybille Steinbacher’s slim volume about Auschwitz /Oświęcim?
I admit I don’t remember all she said, but what was clear was that many of inmates (or would-be inmates) were simply not registered.
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Perhaps my information is outdated or simply inaccurate. I learned that the registration in the concentration camps was pretty accurate, but not in the extinction camps. But admittedly that is just knowledge from school, so if you have read scientific literature on the topic, I retract my statement.
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Kartoffel, the book I mean by Sybille Steinbacher is this one, “Auschwitz: a history”.
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-History-Sybille-Steinbacher-ebook/dp/B002RI9FNG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1406560443&sr=8-1&keywords=sybille+steinbacher)
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@ Kartoffel
I do not doubt that what you were taught about registration may be corrrect.
Perhaps those people that were “separated” for registration may not have been the ones who were exterminated on arrival, and bypassed that procedure.
Could you clarify the difference beween concentration camp and extinction camp?
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@resw77
///Clearly you didn’t read my comments well. I SPECIFICALLY said where I got my figures///
I read it. Collier’s Encyclopedia contains 24 volumes. Chambers’s Encyclopaedia contains 15.
If you are unable to give us more details (page numbers, actual quotes, article names) then the way you provide your sources is worthless.
And in fact that is the case. After all, you claim that Chambers Encycl. said there were 6.5M in Nazi occupied territories.
The actual quote, however, te;lls us that the figure of 6,500,000 is based on Nazi occupied territories in 1939. Meaning, before Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, France, Italy, Russia, the Baltic States, Hungary, Slovakia, Northern Italy and Rumania were occupied. To count them out in the total Holocaust-figures is VERY dishonest.
(see also http://books.google.nl/books?id=_yLm_cHp_REC&pg=PT130&lpg=PT130&dq=%22Chambers+Encyclopedia%22+holocaust&source=bl&ots=cgLL9ek1cN&sig=Jo7sGfL8ol6cQ47mRSn0MyM7Gf4&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=T7DYU-_bO6Pe7AaagoHgBA&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22Chambers%20Encyclopedia%22%20holocaust&f=false where Lipstadt shows that your actual source is Roger Harwood’s bunch of lies)
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And thank you, Bulanik! 🙂
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@ Bulanik
Concentration camps were erected directly after 1933 and was put to many uses, mostly the detainment and the exploitation of labour. Even though many people died in there, that wasn’t the purpose. Most famous examples are Dachau, Theresienstadt, Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen.
An extinction camp served only the purpose of killing as much people as possible, most famous examples are Sobibor and Treblinka. Auschwitz itself doesn’t clearly fit in one of the categories. Though the most people were killed there, a lot of people were there for different reasons.
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@Jeff Elberfield
“If you are unable to give us more details (page numbers, actual quotes, article names) then the way you provide your sources is worthless.”
I specifically gave the years, if you want page numbers and photocopies, you’ll have to get your secretary to do that for you.
“The actual quote, however, te;lls us that the figure of 6,500,000 is based on Nazi occupied territories in 1939.”
I precisely said 6,5M and gave the year 1939. Perhaps try re-reading my comments.
“Meaning, before Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, France, Italy, Russia, the Baltic States, Hungary, Slovakia, Northern Italy and Rumania were occupied. ”
Then I look forward to your proof that the 6,5 population figure from the encyclopaedia grew dramatically from 1939 to 1944.
Your book link pins its silly argument on Chambers excluding Jews in USSR, as if that has anything to do with Nazi concentration camps. Nevertheless, unlike Chambers, I specifically included 5.8M in USSR as cited by Collier’s. So what point are you trying to make?
And more important, how does any of this prove that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps exactly?
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@Kiwi
The claim is made that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. The first question I had to ask is what is the Holocaust? Well, the Holocaust encyclopaedia says “The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews BY THE NAZI regime and its collaborators.”
So that does not include the nearly 6 million Jews who were living in USSR, since it was never occupied by Nazis.
That is precisely why Jeff Elberfeld’s source is moot. It says, “He cited Chambers Encyclopedia, which according to Harwood concluded that the total Jewish population of prewar Europe was 6,500,000”
I don’t know what Harwood said, but Chambers Encyclopaedia counted 6,5M Jews in Nazi-OCCUPIED Europe, not all of Europe (plus, I specifically pointed out that an additional 5,8M lived in USSR according to Collier’s Encyclopaedia).
Of the 6,5 M in Nazi-occupied Europe, we have to know how many escaped and how many claimed survival benefits, and those two figures add up to more than 5M. So it is mathematically impossible that 6 million were “murdered” in the “Holocaust,” unless you refute the encyclopaediae’s figures or the German gov’t’s survivor figures. If so, that’s perfectly fine, but every other source I’ve seen, had the same or similar figures.
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@Kiwi
“Now I’m really curious about your 5.8 million figure for Soviet Jews before WWII. If we are to believe it, that means there were 8 to 9 or maybe even 10 million Jews in the Russian Empire alone before the pogroms began in the 1880s.”
My figure was from Collier’s Encylcopaedia as of 1938. I have no idea how they arrived at it.
And I’m not sure I follow your logic. Can you explain?
“I’m also finding sources saying that 2 million were killed in the USSR. ”
But USSR murders are not included in the “Holocaust,” according to the Holocaust Encylcopaedia’s definition.
“What I keep finding is that less than a million lived in the unoccupied territories of the Soviet Union but a million more escaped eastward from the Nazi-occupied territories. ”
So if a million or more escaped Nazi-occupied territories, and based on my source, 6,5 million Jews were there in 1939, it seems impossible that 6 million were murdered between 1939-1945 by Nazis. Do you have another source that says more than 6,5 million were living in Nazi-occupied areas?
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@resw77
Too bad you do not want to provide the actual texts with us. What are you afraid of?
///“The actual quote, however, te;lls us that the figure of 6,500,000 is based on Nazi occupied territories in 1939.”
I precisely said 6,5M and gave the year 1939. Perhaps try re-reading my comments.///
Actually, you wrote:
///That figure is mathematically impossible. Collier’s Encyclopaedia said there were 5,8 M in Soviet Union in 1938 and Chambers Encycl. said there were 6.5M in Nazi occupied territories. Yet Collier’s claimed 2,2M Jews escaped Nazi Europe to Soviet Union in 1939. That leaves us with 4.3M for Hitler to exterminate. But wait, West Germany counted 3,4M Nazi survivor claimants.///
If you meant to say that the 6.5 million figure was about 1939, you should have used better wordings. However, then your comment concerning the mathematical impossibility of the 6-mln-figure is strange at least.
///“Meaning, before Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, France, Italy, Russia, the Baltic States, Hungary, Slovakia, Northern Italy and Rumania were occupied. ”
Then I look forward to your proof that the 6,5 population figure from the encyclopaedia grew dramatically from 1939 to 1944. ///
See here: http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/holocaust.html
Let’s see the figures of the countries that were occupied AFTER 1939:
Country Minimum Loss Maximum Loss % of Jewish Population
Belgium 28,900 28,900 44%
Bulgaria 0 0 0%
Denmark 60 60 0.7%
Estonia 1,500 2,000 44%
Finland 7 7 0.3%
France 77,320 77,320 22%
Greece 60,000 67,000 86%
Hungary 550,000 569,000 69%
Italy 7,680 7,680 17%
Latvia 70,000 71,500 78%
Lithuania 140,000 143,000 85%
Luxembourg 1,950 1,950 56%
Netherlands 100,000 100,000 71%
Norway 762 762 45%
Romania 271,000 287,000 47%
Slovakia 68,000 71,000 80%
Soviet Union 1,000,000 1,100,000 36%
Yugoslavia 56,200 63,300 81%
In total this adds up to a total of victims between 1,395,200 (minimum) and 1,521,300 (maximum)
Is that enough as a dramatic rise for you?
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Part 2:
///Your book link pins its silly argument on Chambers excluding Jews in USSR, as if that has anything to do with Nazi concentration camps. Nevertheless, unlike Chambers, I specifically included 5.8M in USSR as cited by Collier’s. So what point are you trying to make?///
Yeah what was the point of the 5,6 million in your maths anyway?
///And more important, how does any of this prove that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps exactly?///
Who said “that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps”
I know I didn’t. And none of your earlier postings was about concentration camps either. You are making up the next strawman.
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I am wondering now about Einsatzgruppen shootings in occupied territories as well, some of which started in 1941, if memory from past readings serves.
Are those killings included in the total figures?
(Was also wondering how deaths in ghettoes were classed, too, or how massacres like the one at Jedwabne were counted, for instance, and so on.)
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Admittedly, I haven’t read every comment here, but if one definition of the Holocaust was murder of Jews BY THE NAZI regime and its collaborators, how can this exclude those Jews living in Soviet territory who were murdered under Operation Barbarossa (Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941)?
The locals in those territories that were involved in exterminations did so fully, openly and from the start.
http://www.holocaust-education.dk/holocaust/massemordetsovjetiskejoder.asp
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I’m not clear on why these numbers are so significant. In the Balkans the lies told about numbers were used to instigate further genocide, so I know how loaded those issues can be. Is there something like that going on in this discussion?
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@ Kiwi, resw77
The can Holocaust Encyclopedia be found here: http://www.ushmm.org/learn/holocaust-encyclopedia
All I got as definition of the Holocaust was:“The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.
See http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005143
That doesn’t look as if Russian jews were excluded. Maybe resw77 could enlighten us on this?
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“The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.”
That’s a really irritating definition, as if three quarters of a million Serbs, how many gypsies, gays, disabled people, liberals, etc etc.were just chopped liver, however unfortunate that phrase may be. Gee, it sure as hell felt like a Holocaust when they, under their systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored policies were cremating us alive as racial undesirables and having a real good time while they were at it.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
“Too bad you do not want to provide the actual texts with us. What are you afraid of?”
Hey, if you’re too lazy and/or cheap to go look in the encyclopaediae I referenced then that’s not my problem. I’m not your secretary or research asst.
“If you meant to say that the 6.5 million figure was about 1939″
Whether it’s 1938 or 1939, where’s the evidence of the dramatic rise in population?
“Is that enough as a dramatic rise for you?”
Are you serious? That doesn’t show a rise in population, that shows phony estimates for minimum and maximum LOSSES in the Holocaust. There’s no source for those numbers anyway. And besides, I asked you to prove that Jewish population in Nazi-occupied Europe rose dramatically from 1939 to 1944, and you gave me death estimates.
If you have no evidence for a dramatic Jewish population rise from 1938/1939 to 1944, then why do you care that the encyclopaedia’s population figure is from 1938, 1939 or 1942?
“Yeah what was the point of the 5,6 million in your maths anyway?”
Actually that’s 5,8, but I mentioned it b/c I knew someone like you would come along and use the bogus argument you pulled out of that silly book.
“Who said “that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps”
Well, I’ll rephrase: 6 million Jews were killed by Nazis primarily in concentration camps and “kiling centres”
And again, how does any of what you said prove that 6 million Jews were murdered in the “Holocaust”?
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@Kiwi
“Really? Soviet Jews were murdered by the Nazis’ Einsatzgruppen, which alone shot well over a million Jews by their own estimate.”
According to the “Holocaust” definition, yes, those Jews killed by Einsatzgruppen would be included in the Holocaust, plus it was in Nazi-occupied territory.
And when you say, “by their own estimate,” are you talking about the Nazis?
@Linda Keres Carter
“That’s a really irritating definition”
But that’s the definition in the “Holocaust Encyclopedia,” which is a product of the US Holocaust Memorial Council.
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Searching on the term “Serb” on the Holocaust Encyclopedia on the http://www.ushmm.org/ site brings up 32 articles.
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People often speak of the human cost of the holocaust in terms of lives lost but there is another aspect that’s often overlooked. One was the the cultural genocide and Intelligenzaktion. It’s almost impossible to find good links to anything that’s wikipedia these days (and I tried) but here’s some info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation#Cultural_genocide
“As part of the plan to destroy Poland, the Germans engaged in cultural genocide in which they looted and then destroyed libraries, museums, scientific institutes and laboratories as well as national monuments and historic treasures. They closed down all universities, high schools, and engaged in systematic murder of Polish scholars, teachers and priests. Millions of books were burned, including an estimated 80% of all school libraries, and three-quarters of all scientific libraries. Polish children were forbidden from acquiring education beyond the elementary level with the aim that the new generation of Polish leaders could not arise in the future. According to a May 1940 memo from Heinrich Himmler: “The sole goal of this schooling is to teach them simple arithmetic, nothing above the number 500; writing one’s name; and the doctrine that it is divine law to obey the Germans. I do not think that reading is desirable. By 1941, the number of children attending elementary school in the General Government was half of the pre-war number. The Poles responded with the “Secret Teaching” (Tajne Nauczanie) a campaign of underground education.”
Does this sound at all familiar? I refer frequently to the attacking of the cultural base of a people including their stores of ancestral information and knowledge as key to subjugating them and keeping them that way.
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@ resw77
///“Too bad you do not want to provide the actual texts with us. What are you afraid of?”
Hey, if you’re too lazy and/or cheap to go look in the encyclopaediae I referenced then that’s not my problem. I’m not your secretary or research asst.///
For the record, it was YOU who claimed that “That figure [of 5 to 6 million] is mathematically impossible.” Now it is YOU who is too lazy and/or cheap to back up your own claims.
““If you meant to say that the 6.5 million figure was about 1939″
Whether it’s 1938 or 1939, where’s the evidence of the dramatic rise in population?
“Is that enough as a dramatic rise for you?”
Are you serious? That doesn’t show a rise in population, that shows phony estimates for minimum and maximum LOSSES in the Holocaust. There’s no source for those numbers anyway. And besides, I asked you to prove that Jewish population in Nazi-occupied Europe rose dramatically from 1939 to 1944, and you gave me death estimates.
If you have no evidence for a dramatic Jewish population rise from 1938/1939 to 1944, then why do you care that the encyclopaedia’s population figure is from 1938, 1939 or 1942?
“Yeah what was the point of the 5,6 million in your maths anyway?”
Actually that’s 5,8, but I mentioned it b/c I knew someone like you would come along and use the bogus argument you pulled out of that silly book.?
Again, your full quote was:
///That figure is mathematically impossible. Collier’s Encyclopaedia said there were 5,8 M in Soviet Union in 1938 and Chambers Encycl. said there were 6.5M in Nazi occupied territories. Yet Collier’s claimed 2,2M Jews escaped Nazi Europe to Soviet Union in 1939. That leaves us with 4.3M for Hitler to exterminate. But wait, West Germany counted 3,4M Nazi survivor claimants.///
Which means that, in the most positive view, you forgot that the nazis occuppied Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, France, Italy, Russia, the Baltic States, Hungary, Slovakia, Northern Italy, Greece and Rumania after 1939, while you forgot that jews were living there as well.
And since you still, in site of that, want me to prove that occupying Europe meant that the total population of jews in Nazi occupied territories rose dramatically, I cannot think otherwise than that you are rather silly. That silliness is shown further for calling a book “silly”, and calling estimates of the National WWII Museum “phony,” without proper arguments. I hope you don’t mind I don’t take you that serious anymore.
“Who said “that 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi concentration camps”
Well, I’ll rephrase: 6 million Jews were killed by Nazis primarily in concentration camps and “kiling centres”
And again, how does any of what you said prove that 6 million Jews were murdered in the “Holocaust”?
O dear, an old-fashioned “shift of the burden of proof.” With the risk of getting the readers bored: it was YOU who claimed that “That figure [of 5 to 6 million] is mathematically impossible.” Now, please come with something verifyable.
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@Jeff Elberfeld
“Now it is YOU who is too lazy and/or cheap to back up your own claims.”
I told you exactly where I got the figures, FYI. If you doubt it, it’s your problem not mine.
“Which means that…you forgot that the nazis occuppied Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands,…after 1939, while you forgot that jews were living there as well.”
No, I specifically pointed to a figure that included Jews in “Nazi-occupied territories,” which OBVIOUSLY includes any country or region that was occupied by Nazis during WWII. You’re just confused.
“That silliness is shown further for calling a book “silly”, and calling estimates of the National WWII Museum “phony,” without proper arguments.”
The book is silly because it makes a false claim about a population figure in Chambers Encycl., which also has nothing to do with the argument it’s making as I explained above.
And, obviously I think the National WWII Museum’s unsubstantiated figures are phony, as my comments on this thread have been directed to showing why it’s mathematically impossible for 6 million to have died in the Holocaust. It’s obviously already been discussed above.
“as YOU who claimed that “That figure [of 5 to 6 million] is mathematically impossible.” ”
Right, and I explained exactly why I thought it was mathematically impossible based on encyclopaedia and government figures. Maybe you should actually read my comments before asking the same questions that have already been were addressed. You expressed doubt about the encyclopaediae’s population figures, and that’s fine, but oddly posted a link with a similar total figure, if you recall.
So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. If it’s that 6 million could have died out of a total of 11 million in pre-war Europe, then tell me why the World Almanac, 1948, said 9,37M Jews were in Europe, despite mass emigration to US and elsewhere, and why the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee said only 1,559,600 Jews died in the Holocaust.
I’m sure you have the answers.
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“why it’s mathematically impossible for 6 million to have died in the Holocaust.”
Why is it important to you to prove that six million did not die? Tell us why we should not think you are a Holocaust denier, who is seeking to dismiss and minimalize these crimes in order to remove the culpability of the perpetrators? Or perhaps to remove or minimize anti-Semitism as a root cause of current Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians?
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@roknic
I’m more perplexed why the 6 million figure is so important to you zionists?
And when and how did I dismiss or minimalise anyone’s crimes. Tell me when I said the amount killed in the Holocaust has anything to do with current Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians?
It’s the same zionist rhetoric.
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Why are you calling me a Zionist? I’m not even Jewish. I’ve just heard the 6 million figure for 50 years. I’m the one wondering why you’re so concerned about it. What difference does it make? In the chaos of war it will always be difficult to get exact figures on something like that. And it’s also very easy to use distorted figures to justify war acts intended, or dismiss war acts committed.
I would imagine figures on the number of Jews who received, or still receiving, reparations from Germany should be some kind of accurate indicator. Nobody’s going to want to pay out sums of money for many years if there isn’t adequate documentation of a claim. Although, it’s of no use when entire families were liquidated with no survivors to make a claim.
Linda Keres Carter (two accounts, one is Roknic)
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@roknic
By definition, a zionist is anyone who supports the Jewish right to a state on someone else’s land. Non-jews can be zionists, and many Christian Americans are.
“I’ve just heard the 6 million figure for 50 years. ”
As I mentioned earlier, the 6 million figure actually predates the “Holocaust.” In 1919 Martin Glynn called for the end to the crucifixion of 6 million Jews.
6 is obviously an important number to them.
“I’m the one wondering why you’re so concerned about it. What difference does it make?”
It’s clearly a concern to you, since you’re bothering me about why I am questioning that figure. The difference it makes is that people are blatantly lying about history.
“I would imagine figures on the number of Jews who received, or still receiving, reparations from Germany should be some kind of accurate indicator.”
Already addressed the figures of survivors who made claims to the German gov’t, which obviously factors into why I doubt the 6 million figure.
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I told you exactly where I got the figures, FYI. If you doubt it, it’s your problem not mine.
All right. Stick in your own opinion. But “one figure was in an 15-volume encyclopedia, the other was in a 25-volume-encyclopedia” is not “exact” at all.
No, I specifically pointed to a figure that included Jews in “Nazi-occupied territories,” which OBVIOUSLY includes any country or region that was occupied by Nazis during WWII. You’re just confused.
Said the person who earlier said: “I precisely said 6,5M and gave the year 1939. Perhaps try re-reading my comments.” In 1939 only Austria, Bohemia, the Memel-area and Poland were occupied. You are flipflopping.
The book is silly because it makes a false claim about a population figure in Chambers Encycl., which also has nothing to do with the argument it’s making as I explained above.
And, obviously I think the National WWII Museum’s unsubstantiated figures are phony, as my comments on this thread have been directed to showing why it’s mathematically impossible for 6 million to have died in the Holocaust. It’s obviously already been discussed above.
LOL. So aaccording to you, my sources are silly and phony because they contradict you. Tell me: did you attend the Bob Hope School of Comedy?
Right, and I explained exactly why I thought it was mathematically impossible based on encyclopaedia and government figures. Maybe you should actually read my comments before asking the same questions that have already been were addressed. You expressed doubt about the encyclopaediae’s population figures, and that’s fine, but oddly posted a link with a similar total figure, if you recall.
Apart from the fact that National WWII Museum’s figure is a government figure, (which you claim to have used), which link I posted do you mean?
I did not see you quote government figures, by the way.
So I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
That you are wrong. Isn’t that obvious?
If it’s that 6 million could have died out of a total of 11 million in pre-war Europe, then tell me why the World Almanac, 1948, said 9,37M Jews were in Europe, despite mass emigration to US and elsewhere, and why the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee said only 1,559,600 Jews died in the Holocaust.
I’m sure you have the answers.
The World Almanac story is explained here: http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/worldalmanac.html
And you are lying about the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee. As the say on their site:
/// Who were the “six million” murdered in the Holocaust? The number is so large it is almost impossible to comprehend. Since 1955, Yad Vashem has been fulfilling its mandate to preserve the memory of Holocaust victims by collecting their names, the ultimate representation of a person’s identity, as it is written: “And to them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name (Yad Vashem),” (Isaiah 56:5).///
See http://www.jdc.org/news/fsu-connect.html
You are not even trying hard, are you?
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@Jeff Elberfeld
“All right. Stick in your own opinion. But “one figure was in an 15-volume encyclopedia, the other was in a 25-volume-encyclopedia” is not “exact” at all.”
If you want to stick in my own opinion, it’s “Jeff is too lazy to fact check”
“In 1939 only Austria, Bohemia, the Memel-area and Poland were occupied. You are flipflopping.”
No, again, you’re just confused. It’s not an estimate of the inhabitants of Nazi-occupied Europe in 1939, it’s the 1939 estimate of inhabitants of all of Nazi-occupied Europe during WWII. It’s really not that complicated.
And, of course, if you have a different figure, let’s see it. I welcome it.
“LOL. So aaccording to you, my sources are silly and phony because they contradict you. Tell me: did you attend the Bob Hope School of Comedy?”
No, according to me, your source did not substantiated its claim that 6 million jews were murdered by Nazis. They’re just exaggerated estimates without evidence.
“I did not see you quote government figures, by the way.”
That’s clearly not the only thing you didn’t see.
“Apart from the fact that National WWII Museum’s figure is a government figure, (which you claim to have used), which link I posted do you mean?”
Really? In fact, the National WWII Museum is not a government institution. It is run by a private foundation.
“The World Almanac story is explained here:”
So the World Almanac estimate for Europe, based on the American Jewish Committee, was revised down in 1949 to 3,92M, which is just historical revisionism to support their lie about 6 million holocaust murders. Too bad the revision still wasn’t big enough to take into account all the Jews who left Europe in the 30s and 40s.
“And you are lying about the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee. As the say on their site:”
That was an error, and I should’ve said “5,012,000” as was publicly stated in 1946, which is still less than 6 million.
“You are not even trying hard, are you?”
Not nearly as hard as you!
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http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2014/0807/Khmer-Rouge-conviction-4-questions-about-Cambodia-s-historic-ruling-video?cmpid=TW
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@resw77
“All right. Stick in your own opinion. But “one figure was in an 15-volume encyclopedia, the other was in a 25-volume-encyclopedia” is not “exact” at all.”
If you want to stick in my own opinion, it’s “Jeff is too lazy to fact check”
“In 1939 only Austria, Bohemia, the Memel-area and Poland were occupied. You are flipflopping.”
No, again, you’re just confused. It’s not an estimate of the inhabitants of Nazi-occupied Europe in 1939, it’s the 1939 estimate of inhabitants of all of Nazi-occupied Europe during WWII. It’s really not that complicated.
And, of course, if you have a different figure, let’s see it. I welcome it.
Two points:
1 ) Although it is tempting to elaborate on your interpretation on Chambers’s article, I will give the text that comes as it is cited by Lippstadt: “ On the continent of Europe apart from Russia, whose western provinces also
suffered terribly, only a handful of numerically unimportant communities in neutral countries escaped and of the 6,500,000 Jews who lived in the Nazi – dominated lands in 1939, barely 1,500,000 remained alive when the war ended six years later. ”
How you manage to change this into “all of Nazi-occupied Europe during WWII” is beyond my understanding.
2 ) I already gave the figures of the Vatican and the Nazis. You dismissed them without any motivation. I do not see why I should do my homework again.
(Here I’ll skip some irrelevant info, but thanks anyway for pointing out that the museum in New Orleans is not government funded)
“The World Almanac story is explained here:”
So the World Almanac estimate for Europe, based on the American Jewish Committee, was revised down in 1949 to 3,92M, which is just historical revisionism to support their lie about 6 million holocaust murders. Too bad the revision still wasn’t big enough to take into account all the Jews who left Europe in the 30s and 40s.
The article on nizkor.org clearly states: “The figures listed for 1941, 1947, and 1948 are identified as estimates made in 1938.” If you do not like it that the World Almanac doesn’t stick to outdated numbers, all right. But don’t call it “lies” and “revisionism” because of that.
“And you are lying about the Jewish Joint Distribution Committee. As the say on their site:”
That was an error, and I should’ve said “5,012,000” as was publicly stated in 1946, which is still less than 6 million.
“You are not even trying hard, are you?”
Not nearly as hard as you!
That is true. If you confuse figures of 1,559,600 and 5,012,000 that easily, you are not trying hard to convince people of your silly claim.
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A brazilian movie about Brazil’s Schindler: http://globofilmes.globo.com/filme/querido-embaixador/
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@abagond
“There was no policy to wipe out blacks
But there was a policy to wipe out half-blacks, and this was the first group targeted by the nazis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_Bastard
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@ Alberto Monteiro
Hum!!
I’m not sure if Hitler wanted to wipe out the so-called Mischlinge but merely avoid that they could carry bad genes (from darker races) into the Aryan population in general. For that he didn’t need to kill them but to take measures to avoid race mixing only!
Bad enough anyway…
By the way… are you a mixed race Brazilian guy (=pardo), Alberto Monteiro?
Never mind… you don’t need to answer this silly question!
I raised above question because you bring 2 apparently contradictory messages:
#1. You seem to like Bolsonaro… who fights against the quota system in Brazilian institutions of higher learning, which is helping Black Brazilians until now.
#2. You seem to be sensitive to the humanitarian situation of mixed race individuals in the old Nazi regime.
I tried to solve this system of two equations and one variable! And the solution is…
Never mind…
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I think this is controversial:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/93-year-old-crowned-israels-new-miss-holocaust-survivor/
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