“Stereotypes have some truth to them” has some truth to it but not in the way people think. That truth is not about the stereotyped but the stereotyper.
First, stereotypes are kept alive by confirmation bias: We notice the few examples that fit the stereotype and overlook the ton of examples that do not. This has been proved by studies.
For example, here are two stereotypes that I used to think had some truth to them:
- Black women are harder to get along with than white women.
- Asians are more serious about their studies than whites or blacks.
So when I argue with my wife, it “proves” the first one true – even though I have never been with a white woman!
Or when I go to the library and see Asians there I think, “See how studious they are!” – even though there are way more blacks and whites there doing their homework!
That is confirmation bias. Stereotypes are not based in fact but instead make you blind to the facts.
Second, stereotypes can be made up out of thin air.
For example, black people are supposed to love watermelon way more than anyone. But when I looked it up on the Internet it was Asians who ate the most watermelon by far of anyone in America. Blacks do eat more watermelon than whites but the difference is so slight – like a slice more a year – that no one would notice it.
Or: Some white people say that there are all these black rapists on the loose going after white women. They said the government numbers proved it! But when I looked at the numbers for myself I found out that they had imagined the whole thing!
Or: When I read about the Mammy stereotype I found out it was made up by white people in the early 1800s to defend slavery! Made up.
Third, whites know so little about black people they must be talking about themselves.
Whites keep themselves apart from blacks. So much so that they seem to get most of what they know about blacks from television. But television is put together by other whites who, if anything, know even less about blacks since they can afford to keep themselves even more apart. The blinder leading the blind.
In effect black people become a canvas on which white people paint their fears and self-serving lies. So stereotypes often become this strange mirror of white people:
- Whites got rich off of black slave labour. So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society.
- White men raped black slave women in such huge numbers that Black Americans are now 15% white. So black men are pictured as dangerous rapists.
- White men use to kill blacks without fear of the law. So black men are seen as violent and dangerous without fear of the law.
- Whites repeatedly broke their treaties with American Indians, so now “Indian giver” means someone who takes back what he promised.
See also:
“Third, whites know so little about black people they must be talking about themselves.”
This is what I sometimes call “the mirror syndrome”. I’ve mostly drown it out with the “white noise” of life…:/
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Abagond:
If asian students are not on average more serious about their studies than white or black students, then how do you explain their significantly higher educational attainment and over-representation at top schools?
I think you’re making a logical error in suggesting: “Since some stereotypes are false, they must all be false.”
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From the post: “So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society.”
The first part of Newt’s statement is what I really have a problem with. Apparently poor people don’t work at all, so their kids have absolutely no work ethic. The only way they are used to making money is through crime.
To decode:
Poor = black
Making money through crime = drug dealing.
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I didn’t realize the vid is disabled. It can be seen on YouTube.
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@ Randy
Which Asian folks are you talking about? Because last time I checked, there are many Asian groups who don’t do well in school, who are (by whites of course) dishonestly attached to the Asian groups that actually DO well. Which allows said dishonest whites to create and mindlessly parrot that blanketed educational stereotype about Asians. As if they’re a monolith or something.
In reality, when white people say “Asians are good students!” the people they are really referring to are East Asians, as many Southeast Asians don’t have nearly the same level of educational success. With some SE Asians groups having a rate lower than Blacks and Hispanics.
http://www.asian-nation.org/demographics.shtml#
Creating a stereotype like that, which seems to intentionally ignore a noticeably large amount of contradictory facts just screams “White Agenda”. Especially when you see how the stereotype is used by them.
So now that you’ve cherry-picked a singular point from Abagond’s article (in “Typical Randy Fashion”), and have now had it smacked down, why don’t you do us all a favor and comment on the rest of the article? Oh, and in the exact context in which it’s presented, too.
(Almost forgot that…)
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That man looks like the local bum! Is he sober?
@Randy:
Figures you’d chirp in with you nonsense!
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Franklin,
Theories are disproven by providing counterexamples, as I’ve attempted to do.
Abagond is arguing against the idea that “Stereotypes have some truth to them.” I am pointing out that in this particular case, there is some truth to the stereotype.
Nobody is arguing that stereotypes suggest complete truths, and certainly there is a common tendency to improperly apply observed stereotypes, but that is not what is being debated.
Sidenote: the data on your chart is out-of-date or incorrect. For example, your chart indicates Vietnamese have a 13.8% college degree attainment rate. According to 2008 figures, (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2010/2010015/tables/table_27b.asp), Vietnamese-Americans have a degree attainment rate of 44.6%.
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@ Randy:
Sorry, there is no truth to that stereotype. If you compare Asians to whites in America according to the profession of their parents, the differences in studiousness and IQ and all that pretty much disappear. And, as Franklin points out, you are overlooking the many Asians in America who are stuck in poverty, worse than even blacks. To make any statement like that about “Asians” – almost 4 billion people – is madness.
Stereotypes are false by their very nature, if only because they dehumanize. I have yet to meet an Asian American who thought that the model minority stereotype was anything but dehumanizing – even though it is supposed to be a “good” stereotype. And the people who believe it most firmly turn out to be white. Why is that? Here is what I think it is:
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There is a stereotype that black women are ‘loud’ and rude for example. To dispel this notion one only has to go to a Bingo Hall and witness the ‘loud’ and ‘rude’ white women there. Some have even come to blows over ‘lucky’ tables. I have never seen a octogenarian curse like a sailor, like I see some of those old dolls do. However, if a black women behaves the same way at the Bingo Hall, guess whose behaviour is noticed and remarked on? Certainly not the white, old bats cussing and getting into fist fights over a table. This may appear humorous but it does, did happen regularly. It illustrates confirmation bias to a tee.
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“Whites keep themselves apart from blacks. So much so that they seem to get most of what they know about blacks from television. But television is put together by other whites who, if anything, know even less about blacks since they can afford to keep themselves even more apart. The blinder leading the blind.”
Great point. The TV effect has definitely contributed to the amount of stereotypes that I have. I don’t know why I assumed that characters in shows and films by white writers would be an accurate reflection of POC.
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Abagond:
I would argue that the “dehumanizing” aspect of stereotypes comes from the misapplication of them, not the fact that a person is able to perceive such patterns.
Abagond:
I think I can help you with this.
Next time you’re in a medical facility, take a bit of time to chat up one of the many OTB asian workers you’re likely to find there. After you’ve built up some rapport, casually ask, “does it bother you that many Americans think that [your group] works harder than native-born Americans?”
Don’t be surprised to hear him or her say something like, “no, because we usually do.”
I’m not saying that this is necessarily true, rather I’m responding to your suggestion that minorities would universally reject being stereotyped as having “model” characteristics.
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But aren’t Asians native born Americans, too? I thought we were talking about the Asian Americans, not Asian immigrants in America.
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* Whites got rich off of black slave labour. So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society.
* White men raped black slave women in such huge numbers that Black Americans are now 15% white. So black men are pictured as dangerous rapists.
* White men use to kill blacks without fear of the law. So black men are seen as violent and dangerous without fear of the law.
* Whites repeatedly broke their treaties with American Indians, so now “Indian giver” means someone who takes back what he promised.
———————————————-
Here’s another:
– Whites refuse to pay restitution, reparations, damages, wages to slaves —
The word in the English lexicon that best describes this phenomenon/attitude is “niggardly.”
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Very poignant observation, Abagond. By the way, did you see the new AWB episode?
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Abagond:
Stereotypes are half-truth and half-bulls**t. All asian students are not “Straight A” students…Japan places greater importance on education, thus, all asians are lumped together. All asians are not from Japan. Black people don’t believe in education…Wrong! Black students from the west-indies, africa, and other countries push their children to get an education. Black youth in america are lukewarm about studies because the US as a country is conflicted about education. Being black and smart is a dangerous combo in these united states of america. Abagond, please remind black folk of that fact? Whitemen commit most of the crime, but, black criminals get a lion’s share of news coverage. Black male suspects engage in more violent crime within their race, which scares the hell out of white people. And, white folk should be afraid of violent black males, because they created them..Real Talk! They don’t like blackmen like me, but they love punk-ass criminals, awol fathers, gangsta-rappers, exploited athletes, etc. The stereotypes that they claim to fear the most were created by them. Such as, blackmen are all sex and no brain, result, whitewomen waste a lot of time chasing after blackmen when every blackman on this planet doesn’t want them in his bed. Blackwomen are not desirable, but, whitemen had no problem raping countless numbers of african females on this planet…Africa…Central Asia…South Asia…Pacific Isles, and so forth. But, whitewomen are god’s gift to all men, Really? Stereotypes created by whites keep black folk in chaos with themselves, because, we make fools out of ourselves by trying to validate bulls**t.
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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Tyrone said:
“Being black and smart is a dangerous combo in these united states of America”
Yes, when you are balck, you are not supposed to be clever or to know anything, otherwise you will hear comments like, “You can’t know what you don’t know”.
It is so shocking for some white people to realise that balck people are a lot smarter and strategic than we are given credit for.
The main focus is to bring ypu down at every turn, to make you feel so fed up that you are supposed to give up.
Getting along with people has more to do with personality than anything else, although sometimes you can factor in colour or race as well.
Being studious has nothing to do with colour, but more to do with the individual. I have met people from all walks of life who are clever/smart/Intelligent/studious/brainy and others who are dumb/low intelligence/daft/incompetent…..These things occur among all colours and races.
I think that this all depends on the nation/country’s culture more than anything else.
Stereotypes are not necessarily based on facts…..Just because you meet one person from x place who is dirty/rude/racist/dumb/clever/scammer etc does not mean that everyone from that place automatically fits into the same mould….Simply because some things can be put down to the individual and not the nation/race etc.
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Happiness:
Great point! All members of a group are not the same, thus, should not be looked at in the same way, Ditto! I’m guilty of that character flaw, as it relates to my views on race. Instead of criticizing a specific person or group, I criticize whites as a whole. I’m wrong for doing that, but, it’s a necessary evil in my mind. I’ve dealt with so-called good white people throughout my life, and have had good and not so good experiences on both accounts. It’s hard for me to trust whites, because, I don’t know if they’re being real or fake, Can’t Tell! I’m never gonna be a “utopian” in that regard, too cynical by nature. I’m the brotha that never jumps up and down about anything, which is a good thing. Blackmen should always have a sober mind, not too high and not too low…Balance! Not that sistas can’t do the same, but, our brains are not wired the same. Women are more trusting in general. Men have to stay on their toes because of other men. Men fight with each other over women, money, and power. As a blackman, I can’t fall into the trap of trusting other men, otherwise, slavery and colonization takes place. Blackwomen should understand that about men. Strong brothas are viewed as this and that by some sistas, because, they don’t know the ways of men…Bottomline! Happiness, I take your comments to heart, but, I and other like-minded sistas and brothas have to stay F-O-C-U-S-E-D.
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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Mira said:
I would consider naturalized / permanent-resident-on-the-road-to-naturalization immigrants from Asia to be “Asian-American”, though I suppose some people could parse the term differently.
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Matari
* Whites got rich off of black slave labour. So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society.
* White men raped black slave women in such huge numbers that Black Americans are now 15% white. So black men are pictured as dangerous rapists.
* White men use to kill blacks without fear of the law. So black men are seen as violent and dangerous without fear of the law.
* Whites repeatedly broke their treaties with American Indians, so now “Indian giver” means someone who takes back what he promised.
———————————————-
“Here’s another:
– Whites refuse to pay restitution, reparations, damages, wages to slaves –
The word in the English lexicon that best describes this phenomenon/attitude is “niggardly.”
Another one for the list: Personal responsibilityWhite people moan day and night that “the problem with Blacks is that they refuse to take personal responsibility for their own lives and communities and prefer to make excuses and blame all their self-inflicted problems on the innocent scapegoat – wh*tey”. Yet when it comes to all the crimes America committed against Black people, the sabotage of Black progress that they perpetrated and the institutional and personal racism they perpetrate today, they deny most of it, make many excuses and absolutely refuse to take any kind of responsibility for any of it and instead blame Black people for all of it.
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Personal responsibility White people moan day and night that “the problem with Blacks is that they refuse to take personal responsibility for their own lives and communities
Why would they? When a thieves go to court and is asked if he/she is guilty or not guilty, they will plead not guilty, even if caught with their hand in the till! If they are found guilty they will try to explain it away of blame it on someone else(their parents verbally or physically abused them, they are drunkards or drug addicts, or just plain insane). When the victim of the thievery calls to them to account, they will blame them for tempting them, not having secure enough premises and so on and so on…anything to get out of a bind. They blame everyone else but themselves, they blame the victims of their crimes themselves? This is the mindset you are dealing with, the mindset of thieves. this is their history the history of thievery. Oh yeah, when the court orders the thief to pay restitution, the thief will claim he doesn’t have a pot to piss in. Meanwhile he has cash stashed somewhere off shore. Yes racist stereotypes serve a purpose. It is so that racist whites can extricate themselves from any culpability in institutional racism just as a thief will.
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I am half East Asian and now live in East Asia. Many East Asians do not necessarily learn the material so well as they learn how to pass standardised tests and exams. It is not difficult to do and I have known White and Black British students who have done the same and consistently achieved straight A’s even though they did not study much.
I have also lived in Europe and I thought it would be an interesting thing to mention that the French are always seen as lazy people who want to enjoy the good things in life without having to work for it. In contrast, the Japanese are seen as workoholics. In France, many people arrive at work at 9am, have a 2-hour lunch break and can go home at 4pm. Some government places even open at 11am and close at 3pm… a grand total of 2 working hours per day with that big lunch break! In Japan, people work so late they even have their dinner with their colleagues and certainly do not have 2-hour lunch breaks. However, did you know that the French are actually far more productive than the Japanese? While the Japanese work far longer hours, they get a lot less done. It is even reflected in my husband’s workplace here, where he has many Japanese colleagues. They are frequently socialising even though they arrive earlier and leave later than everyone else. The French may have more time to enjoy their lives, but they also work hard to be able to do that.
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[…] Read the entire post here […]
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“Whites keep themselves apart from blacks. So much so that they seem to get most of what they know about blacks from television. But television is put together by other whites who, if anything, know even less about blacks since they can afford to keep themselves even more apart. The blinder leading the blind.”
In the 70’s and 80’s on TV many Black characters used the phrase, “jive turkey” But in real life I have never heard a Black person use that phrase. Not once. That phrase seems to come from the minds of White TV writers. But I’m sure that most people hearing the phrase would attribute it to Black people.
There is lots of language (such as wilding out) that would also be associated with Black people but is really the invention of Whites.
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Yes, excellent post. I’ve tried so hard to articulate this to myself and others but haven’t even come this close.
Abagond, where is that picture from and why did you use it for this post?
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IMO the creature in the picture looks like Leviathon mentioned in the Bible.
—-
@commentarybyvalentia:
I believe there is a song from the 70s by the Ohio Players called “Jive Turkey.” I think there was also a blaxploitation movie out with the same name during that time.
@Iris:
I’ve read that, as you mention, many Asians seem to excel academically because they have been taught how to take standardized tests, not because they have conceptually mastered the material. Also, I have heard that in China, for instance, kids are taught to “learn” things by rote memory, and that cheating on tests is a common occurrence. There are also cultural differences. I don’t know any American kids who stay at school into the evening and then go home and do homework well into the night. There is tremendous pressure on the kids to excel so that they can get into the best schools and colleges. I think the suicide rate among these kids is high, too.
Although there are differences among individuals, I don’t believe any race of people excels over another in terms of intelligence. (In case anyone is wondering, I am in no way knocking Asians).
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@ Wong Chia Chi
That picture of a sea serpent is from Conrad Gessner’s book on animals written in the 1550s. He thought sea serpents were real. Just like how many people think stereotypes are real.
In an earlier draft of the post I wrote:
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@ proudchocolategirl
I did believe that stereotype had “some truth” to it, even after I started this blog! But in the end it was a good thing because it taught me how self-serving stereotypes can be.
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@ Nom de Plume
Yes, this is also true. Being academically successful and having a highly respected and highly paid job is the best thing one can do to please their Asian parents. Since the pressure is so great, there is indeed a lot of cheating that goes on when kids and teenagers get desperate and people do kill themselves when they feel they will never be good enough. The world is a very competitive place and having a son or daughter who graduates from one of the best and most famous universities to get the perfect job increases their family’s face (or reputation) enormously. However, not everyone can be the best and other talents and skills, such as artistic creativity, are ignored. It is no wonder that many East Asians commit suicide, even in North America. Even if an individual does achieve everything required, they are still constantly compared to their peers. For those who are interested, here is an article about East Asians and suicide in the US: http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archive/2010/11/ask-model-minority-suicide-hello
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@ proudchocolategirl
That post with the controversy was one of the worst ever written on this blog.
In many of my posts I present the con arguments and then knock them down but there people seemed to think I BELIEVED the con arguments! I have only myself to blame for that since it had to come from bad writing. A few days later I rewrote it:
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Abagond,
Stereotypes are blanket generalizations of a targeted group based on ignorance. All human beings are capable of being evil/full of hate. There is not one group out there that is “pure as the driven snow”. It all comes down to a choice and not everyone chooses to hate. So it is unfair to make generalizations of an entire race/ethnicity based on similarities you encounter across a number people or on television. I’ve worked and studied with a variety of people across several ethnicities. I’ve seen the good and the bad in a variety of ethnicities. But I never attribute a person’s actions to their cultural and historical background. I’ve also been the recipient of genuinely kind gestures from all ethnicities and I’m black. I’ve led a highly successful life partly because I’ve never let negative encounters in my life tear me down. So it’s really quite unfair to make generalizations.
Abagond this post seems to perpetuate the pain that people experience in terms of stereotypes. But I feel you could have gone one step further with this post by offering solutions of how to cope. I mean…if you’re going to go there, might as well get down to business and help people work through it. Stereotypes will continue to exist. It’s human nature to place labels on people. Have you read the book “Blink” by Malcolm Gladwell? It’s an interesting read and it touches on the issue of “labels”. Perpetuating pain doesn’t advance an individual but solutions can. Currently this post doesn’t advance me it leaves me at a stand still.(as do most of the posts on this blog)
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@Iris:
Thanks for your insight.
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Maverick,
I think “how to cope with stereotypes” would be ANOTHER post. A good one too. One blog post can only do so much/be so long before most people stop reading it.
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Interesting. Some Asian-American students are concerned that they aren’t getting a fair shake in college admissions process since they tend to outperform other groups. So some are trying to hide their ethnicity.
http://news.yahoo.com/asians-college-strategy-dont-check-asian-174442977.html
“Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it’s 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.
Top schools that don’t ask about race in admissions process have very high percentages of Asian students. The California Institute of Technology, a private school that chooses not to consider race, is about one-third Asian. (Thirteen percent of California residents have Asian heritage.) The University of California-Berkeley, which is forbidden by state law to consider race in admissions, is more than 40 percent Asian — up from about 20 percent before the law was passed.
Steven Hsu, a physics professor at the University of Oregon and a vocal critic of current admissions policies, says there is a clear statistical case that discrimination exists.
“The actual dynamics of how it happens are really quite subtle,” he says, mentioning factors like horse-trading among admissions officers for their favorite candidates”
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Thanks for that link, Shady_Grady.
How am I supposed to teach my children that racism is always wrong when many educational institutions formally and actively practice it?
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I would disagree that educational affirmative action is automatically racism if only because so many other factors have always been considered in who makes the cut in admissions. It’s never been just test scores and grades.
That said, the justifications for affirmative action in higher education will increasingly be falling on deaf ears in the court system and the court of public opinion-regardless of whether it is justified or not. My state, Michigan, also got rid of affirmative action in public institutions.
So I think it will be imperative for black people and others of good will to deal with the deficits in test scores/grades. This starts at a very early age; I think high school is too late to deal with the issue. Part of it is the internalization of negative stereotypes. Part of it could be malnutrition, exposure to lead, segregation, lack of challenging educational environment, etc. Those are the things we must confront.
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Great post and interesting responses as usual. One stereotype stuck out for me: “Black women are harder to get along with than white women.” This stereotype has been perpetuated by black men unfortunately. I believe at their core, black men use the “bad attitude” excuse to mask the fact that they are more fascinated with European aesthetics than African ones. As of late, black women have become the black man’s whipping board. Black women are battling both sexism and racism with no artillery. Her voice is her only defense.
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Randy is a proof of randyinism that is a totally unfounded stereotype of a totally unbiased randyinism.
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Hannu,
Your tautologies today are quite tautological.
However, rather than leaving us with only implied ad hominems, perhaps you might weigh in on the content of this discussion. Have you read the article posted by Shady_Grady, and what is your opinion?
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@Nom De Plume
That’s interesting.
I did a little research online as to where the term originates. But I couldn’t find any real evidence of usage of the phrase other than 70’s TV and as you mention an Ohio Players song. Of course most of the definitions of the phrase attribute it to being African American slang. But was it really?
So the question remains; is it truly African American slang or did White TV writers create the term?
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How is it “sexist” to wonder why people of any gender/race combination make the choices that they do? It takes two to tango, after all.
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Why is it so hard for a lot of people to see each other as equals, as individuals, despite color, gender, etc. How is this so f***ing complicated.
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And no offense, but it weirds me out when people take their “race” so seriously, and have usernames like “chocolateprincess”, “darkandlovingit” or w/e, when race is nothing. culture is what actually separates people, and it is not a racial thing. there’s no “black culture”, “white culture”, etc, because blacks, whites, and etc. live in various places around the world, with various cultures. and we all come to make up the human population on earth.
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Black people can be hard working. You just have to find work that is suited for them and stay on them a lot.
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Blacks have a high tolerance for hot, humid weather and are able to work harder and longer than most whites in it.
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@Lara
Black people can be hard working. You just have to find work that is suited for them and stay on them a lot.
&
Blacks have a high tolerance for hot, humid weather and are able to work harder and longer than most whites in it.
Are you writing a publication on The correct way to Stereotype Black people or are they your own personal observations and if so, does this include a worldwide observation?
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Mostly from personal observation. Black people do seem to like warm weather and don’t have to worry about getting sunburned. Northern Europeans prefer cooler weather and have fair skin.
I think blacks have gotten a bad reputation for being lazy partly because we’ve allowed them to become so. If they are in a job that they are qualified for, and know they can be fired if they screw up, many of them are good workers. We’ve spoiled them in the last 50 years, and many of them have lost their work ethic.
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@Lara
I think blacks have gotten a bad reputation for being lazy partly because we’ve allowed them to become so
&
We’ve spoiled them in the last 50 years, and many of them have lost their work ethic
What’s your job? Are you wife of a slave master or are you yourself an overseer?
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Mostly from personal observation. Black people do seem to like warm weather and don’t have to worry about getting sunburned
So, let me get this straight, this is ALL black people based on the minute amount of Black people that you have known and come into contact with?
Oh, by the way, skin is very funny you know – if its not used to being exposed to the sun on a regular basis, do you know what can happen regardless of shade/tone/hue of skin??? It burns – maybe you can advise those POC that live in varying parts of the world where the climate is rarely sunny that they will be fine baring all in the sun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had this of been the first comment of this type then I probably wouldnt respond in this way.
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Is this a racist troll which I see before me?
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Skin cancer is very uncommon in blacks. It actually is healthy for black people to get a lot of sun, they shouldn’t avoid it. Fair skinned white women sunburn easily and get prematurely wrinkled, black women are lucky they don’t have to worry about it.
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The bullet points at the end of the article are of events that happened a long time ago. And it’s never mentioned how under REAL racism Blacks owned businesses, Black men married the mothers of their children and provided for them, and you didn’t have third and fourth generation of families living public housing or on welfare. My ancestors were under the boot of the English for 800 years. They attempted genocide on us twice. During the potato famine the choice came to either get on a boat to America or starve to death. One million came here. One million died. When we got hear we were lower than Blacks on the social ladder. But we persevered, and now the idea of Irish prejuidice is laughable. I don’t go around blaming English people for not getting everything I want. Since my ancestors came others have followed—-many having just as horrific pasts—Jews, Armenians, Cambodians, Russians, and plenty of immigrants from West Africa that share the ethnic stock of Black Americans, but manage to get through life without abandoning their children or viewing going to jail as “keeping it real.”
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“I don’t go around blaming English people for not getting everything I want.”
Good, because it isn’t our fault.
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@
Skin cancer is very uncommon in blacks. It actually is healthy for black people to get a lot of sun, they shouldn’t avoid it. Fair skinned white women sunburn easily and get prematurely wrinkled, black women are lucky they don’t have to worry about it.
Is this what your black friends tell you? Only you never did clarify whether your ‘personal’ observations were from a voyeuristic viewpoint OR whether this is ‘intimate’ knowledge?
So what about the ‘Black’ people that have skin the same complexion as ‘white’ people? BTW, I didnt say they deliberately avoided getting the sun, I said as you well know, what if they do not live in a country where there is regular sunshine. Lots of WP are sun worshippers too – many like to add that ‘touch of colour’ to their skin as they feel it makes them look healthier and vibrant. You ought to try it, maybe you will get a bit more interest from men on that website you frequent!
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“So what about the ‘Black’ people that have skin the same complexion as ‘white’ people?”
If you are referring to a black albino, I would imagine they do have to be very careful in the sun. Other than that, I don’t see black people who have the same complexion I do. That’s how I know they are black.
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If you are referring to a black albino, I would imagine they do have to be very careful in the sun
No, I am not referring to a black albino
Other than that, I don’t see black people who have the same complexion I do. That’s how I know they are black.
And here we have it, definitive proof that your ‘personal’ knowledge of black people does not extend past the end of your backyard.
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Jay from Philly
“In America the Irish were seen at first as little better than animals. They were compared to blacks: ruled by their passions (as proved by their large families), unwilling to work hard, taking delight in lower pleasures, etc.
They were also seen as outsiders: they had a strange way of talking and strange religious beliefs. They were Catholics coming to a land that in those days was solidly Protestant.
On top of being seen as outsiders, they found themselves up against blacks and the Chinese in looking for work.
But they had one card that the blacks and the Chinese did not have: their white skin. That meant two things:
1.White employers would favour them over people of colour.
2.They could become citizens and vote. In the 1800s very few people of colour could vote, despite what the Constitution said.
So most of the maids and dock workers in New York, for example, went from being mostly black to being mostly Irish.
Since they settled mainly in big cities in the north their vote could be used to create and maintain political machines which would tax well-to-do whites to hire the Irish to work for the city – as policemen, firemen, contractors, etc. They also created labour unions to get better pay and working conditions – and to keep out blacks.
So in time the Irish were able to lift themselves from the bottom by taking advantage of White American racism. New York used to have Irish slums. Those are long gone. Now they mostly live in the city’s white middle-class suburbs.”
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Black people can be hard working. You just have to find work that is suited for them and stay on them a lot.
Lara, you may be on to something! I love shopping, perhaps I should be a professional shopper! It takes a lot of walking and hoisting of shopping bags!
Blacks have a high tolerance for hot, humid weather and are able to work harder and longer than most whites in it.
I go against the grain Lara as I detest hot weather!
“I don’t go around blaming English people for not getting everything I want.”
Why not? I blame white folks for not winning the lottery, after all who else should I blame?! Hey, how about those Philly cheese steaks!
Lara, Jay, keep the jokes coming!
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Demerera,
Okay, I get it. You’re one of those light skinned blacks. Don’t worry, I won’t lump you in with all the dark skinned ones.
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@Lara
Okay, I get it. You’re one of those light skinned blacks. Don’t worry, I won’t lump you in with all the dark skinned ones.
Nope, you dont get it at all.
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Seriously Abagond you are so lenient, I would’ve banned “Lara” into next Tuesday, compared to her, people like Randy are a breath of fresh air, at least he makes a minimal attempt not to sound like a complete idiot.
Or is she allowed to post as a comic relief or something?
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Demerera
That’s obviously it.
She struck out when looking for a sugar daddy on that website and she imagines it is some bad attitude Black woman that snagged her (White entitlement complex) sugar daddy due to the Black themed porn movies she watches and now she’s furious about it, so she’s come on this site to attack Black women to make herself feel better about herself.
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@Robert
She struck out when looking for a sugar daddy on that website and she imagines it is some bad attitude Black woman that snagged her (White entitlement complex) sugar daddy due to the Black themed porn movies she watches and now she’s furious about it, so she’s come on this site to attack Black women to make herself feel better about herself.
The most amusing thing is Robert, when you go to the home page of the website it states ‘The Elite Sugar Daddy Site’ for those seeking Mutually Beneficial Relationships. This female then has the audacity to come on here and talk about BW ‘using’ the site purely for the very purpose it was set up for – the cheek of those savvy BW, how dare they!!!!!!
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Nestafan2 says,
Great post and interesting responses as usual. One stereotype stuck out for me: “Black women are harder to get along with than white women.” This stereotype has been perpetuated by black men unfortunately. I believe at their core, black men use the “bad attitude” excuse to mask the fact that they are more fascinated with European aesthetics than African ones. As of late, black women have become the black man’s whipping board. Black women are battling both sexism and racism with no artillery. Her voice is her only defense.
laromana says,
Thanks for your excellent comments, Nestafan2.
So many Americans don’t understand/want to admit that BW not only face ANTI-BW HATE from American culture/media but from their SAME RACE men. What’s so DISGUSTING about ANTI-BW BM HATERS is that they exist because BW birthed/raised them but this isn’t enough for them to see that the OWE BW THEIR LIVES AND ALL DUE RESPECT.
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@Lara
Do you think a company, oh I dunno, like Microsoft should have special ‘black departments’ that would be hotter and more humid that the ones where white people work? Think about the astonishing raise in productivity! And UV lamps all over! A paradise! No more lazyness, coffee breaks or idle, money wasting chats with coworkers!
But seriously, I’ve been told that the reputation of blacks being lazy comes from the times of Belgian Congo, when colonial masters made natives work themselves to death, literally. Inhuman working conditions with malnourishment. They didn’t care because there were abundance of labour available.
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What is it with these trolls these days anyway? Are they some sort of a spearhead of an invasion fleet of cybertrolls? Is there a D-day coming? Or maybe they’re planning an internet version of Operation Barbarossa.
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The most amusing thing is Robert, when you go to the home page of the website it states ‘The Elite Sugar Daddy Site’ for those seeking Mutually Beneficial Relationships
I knew it! A ‘dating site for ‘high class’ whores!
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Maybe their from Mars! Dotar Sojat! Where are you?!
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Lara said this foolishness:
“I think blacks have gotten a bad reputation for being lazy partly because we’ve allowed them to become so. If they are in a job that they are qualified for, and know they can be fired if they screw up, many of them are good workers.”
**********************************
I see that you’re back with your usual penchant for getting most (if not all) things pertaining to black people WRONG. Normally, I’d just dismiss you and ignore YOUR ignorance, but I think I need to make an exception this time – not for your sake mind you, because I think you’re a lost cause, blind and without hope on this matter of race. I wonder why you’re even here.
It’s common knowledge amongst black folks that to be considered on par with (this means equal to, Lara) white people, we have to out perform our white co-worker sitting/standing beside us by at least 2 to 3 times or more to have a semblance of SIMILAR VALUE/PAY/etc that your white skin PRIVILEGE AUTOMATICALLY gives you.
In other words we have to perform EXCEPTIONALLY WELL at ALL TIMES to be given the same status, appreciation and respect as the AVERAGE white person sitting across the aisle from us. While a significant number of us do give stellar performances, just to be on par with the average white person doing a mediocre (or less) job, many of us are just plain tired of playing that GAME with people that have the same identical views, biases and attitudes AS YOU. So, when we do go about doing our job – in the exact same way that the average white Jane or John Doe does it – but with the added baggage of racist micro-aggressions, micro-insults, slights and blatant outrageous racist acts we often have to contend with in largely WHITE work environments.
This unwritten PERFORMANCE rule/policy doesn’t only apply to employment, it applies to other institutions as well: criminal justice, education, housing, finance and so on.
If you think I’m mistaken, ASK yourself — what person of color, with a C- grade point average, a string of failed misadventures and a knack for mangling even the simplest of common English words and phrases, a presenter of lies and misinformation regarding weapons of mass destruction leading to the maiming and killing of thousands of innocents … could lead his party’s ticket and win(?) not one, but two presidential elections and become the most powerful man in the world?
My point is that white people all over America are permitted to be mediocre – or less. You are permitted a type of normalcy that blacks are not. Michael Vick went to jail for killing a few dogs. Bush killed hundred of thousands of Iraqis and others and wasn’t even brought up on criminal charges.
When blacks are average or mediocre we are somehow defective, dangerous, criminal, pathological, unacceptable, not a “credit” to the race, or just plain lazy — if they are not viewed as “exceptional” by deluded people like you. If we seem like monstrosities to you, consider the role WHITENESS played in creating the monsters you fear, and think are lazy.
Once again, you’d probably learn more by sticking to the sidelines and being quiet.
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@Matari, thanks for writing that response to Lara, well worth reading a couple of times.
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Hey Matari, I did a new post on People like ‘Lara’, check it out.
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Matari,
Likely the blacks who feel disrespected in their jobs are affirmative actions hires and know they aren’t really cut out for the job. I don’t see black athletes, who are often very good at what they do, worrying as much as you seem to about not being qualified.
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Matari said:
Shady_Grady’s article about college admissions biases argues against the universal applicability of your statement. Your thoughts?
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@ Vanishing Point
Thanks.
@ Herneith
You have a funny entertaining way of telling it like it is.
Crackerisms … LOL Brilliant!
@ Lara
Um.. on second thought – never mind. I could tell you that the sky was blue today and you’d find a way to twist that into some strange weird thing I never said.
**just walking away from my laptop, smh while wondering if I can recall ever seeing a soul as clueless, LOST, hopeless and confused as Lara appears to be.. if she’s typical, and I suspect that she is, racism is going to be around for a long, long time.. or until racist whites stop being white …**
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@ Randy
Have you noticed that I never engage or have anything to say directly to you?
Why?
Because I can’t bother with disingenuous people who are full of crap – and incessantly attempt intellectual machinations.
Growing numbers of people here SEE what you try to do and are tiring of YOUR GAME.
I refuse to play with you. I don’t have a single thing to prove. I’m not here for YOU. I’m here to exchange thoughts, ideas, information and opinions with other seekers of truth to help us deal with that REALITY which always somehow seems just beyond your grasp.
I have much better ways of using my time that doesn’t include entertaining you and your presumed cleverness. You’re not as clever, or slick, as you think. I wish you well.
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@Matari
The problem with Randy and Lara is that they don’t know how to be quiet or they don’t feel they should be quiet. I would say the latter describes them. There is nothing you, I, Abagond, or even Jesus can say that would make them learn anything. They are simply incapable of learning anything about race let alone black people, and they will prove it.
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Matari,
Is discrimination based on race acceptable, or isn’t it? And if so, under what circumstances?
There appears to be a jarring dissonance between the values many institutions purport to hold on these matters compared with their actions.
It’s a bit ironic that on this blog, asians are often embraced as fellow “People of Color”, and there’s a camaraderie which coalesces around their stories of race-related difficulties.
But when an example is presented on how asian students seeking admission to elite schools need 10% higher scores than white students and 40% higher scores than black students, where’s the outrage?
Maybe people aren’t actually opposed to race-related discrimination in general, but rather merely opposed to race-related discrimination which happens to impact groups for which they have a particular well of sympathy.
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See what I mean?
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@ Randy:
You know perfectly well that I have written about racism against Asian Americans, even the part about how they have to get higher test scores just to be seen as equal to whites.
I know you know because your own comments are on posts such as these:
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“I can see why someone might completely miss the point because they did not actually read my comment because they could only see the big, bad “s” word jump out from their computer screen….
{Bulanik chuckles to herself and turns the radio up again…”
Actually Bulanik, you didn’t really make a point which is why I raised the question. Let’s try it again. How/why is it “sexist” to ask the question of why American white men generally don’t marry black women.
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brothawolf
“There is nothing you, I, Abagond, or even Jesus can say that would make them learn anything. They are simply incapable of learning anything about race let alone black people, and they will prove it.”
“See what I mean?”
Of course I do.
{{Cue Rod Sterling voice-over}}
*They are rendered STUCK in their whiteness programming/conditioning, going around and around, unable to break free of their delusional loops because they’ve entered TOO FAR into – The TWILIGHT Zone.*
This is exactly why I liken the EFFECTS of whiteness to demonic possession. On this site alone we continually witness THIS phenomenon (WHITENESS) that comes over them to the extent that nothing – no amount of perfectly written posts, Tim Wise articles, college text books, scientific evidence including: research, studies, empirical data, sociological experiments, statistics, first hand expert testimony – NOTHING – can pull or sway them out of this zombie-like state they’ve somehow entered into once they’ve gone past a certain point. Whites as far gone as Randy and Lara cannot ever concede to nor admit the truth – their whiteness/Borg programming forbids that.
In disk drive terminology, they are like unrecoverable errors – because their hearts want it that way.
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brothawolf,
I’ve learned a lot about black people from this blog. I’ve come to the conclusion that blacks intensely dislike white people who pander to them and pretend to feel guilty about racism. Racism, that no one on here has ever been able to prove, but apparently it still exists.
Blacks like the idea of living in a racist society, therefore they like racists.
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I’m racist and I’ve always gotten along very well with blacks. They appreciate the sincerity.
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White slaveowners, who were racist by any definition, often had slaves who were devoted to them. Meanwhile, whites who give in to blacks all the time, can’t get a black person to lift a finger for them.
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Good post as usual, Abagond. @proudchocolategirl
I use to believe the same thing, but I finally made the transition and I’m loving my natural hair. #nolongerbrainwashed
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I’m sorry, but Lara’s comments are beyond ridiculous. Thanks for the laugh, though.
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@Lara
I’m racist and I’ve always gotten along very well with blacks. They appreciate the sincerity.
You’re not being honest here are you dear. It has already been established that you know BP only on a peripheral basis rather than a personal level so they probably arent in situ around you long enough to glean that ‘aspect’ of your persona.
May I suggest that in addition to being ‘racist’ that you come across as guiless, jealous and insecure – these traits are not appealing at all.
White slaveowners, who were racist by any definition, often had slaves who were devoted to them. Meanwhile, whites who give in to blacks all the time, can’t get a black person to lift a finger for them.
Ahh, I asked you about your plantation yesterday but you didnt respond – I see you are reminiscing here.
So Lara, by coming on Blogs like this, are you hoping to ‘discover’ teach even more to the good people about BP that they didnt know before OR did you accidentally stumble upon this site thinking that it would be like your ‘Seeking Arrangements’ website and you would snag yourself a big rich buck?
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Leigh,
You’re a member of the most successful, most privileged, and least dysfunctional group in this country, Asians. Blacks are the least successful, least privileged and most dysfunctional group in the country. Asian women are also often considered some of the most attractive women in the world, sought after by all races of men. Black women, on the other hand, have low marriage rates. I’m wondering how you came to identify so strongly with blacks when your own group has none of the same problems?
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Demerera,
I am being honest. The more racist I am towards black people, the nicer they are to me. It’s weird. Maybe black people should stop rewarding racist white behavior, if they want it to end.
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abagond:
Yes. I am actually referring to your commenters absence of discussion on these points rather than your own. Several have taken the time to “shoot the messenger” instead of engaging the matter at hand.
But as to your own beliefs on the subject, perhaps you might share why it’s unjust for asian students to need scores 10% higher than white students, but not even more unjust for them to needs scores 40% higher than black students.
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@Lara
It’s weird. Maybe black people should stop rewarding racist white behavior, if they want it to end.
Hmmm, wont this bring about your own downfall or do you hope that this will make BP more on your level and accesible to you? I am sensing that you are not in the white ‘premiere’ league yourself hence your pursuit of a random man with cash…
Also, I wonder if you feel that your narrow minded opinion is rewarded when you post here then – is that what brings you back? I dont get the sense that your comments are valued, in fact they seem to be ridiculed. Are you seeking antipathy – will that elevate you to the status you desire?
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“I don’t get the sense that your comments are valued”
They certainly aren’t ignored.
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@Lara
They certainly aren’t ignored.
I didnt say they were, I find most of the people on this blog are up for a laugh…
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Black people often have good senses of humor, probably why I get along with them.
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@Lara
Black people often have good senses of humor, probably why I get along with them
You do yourself a diservice, most people other than black find you amusing. Its good that you can laugh along at yourself…I knew that most of your comments on her couldnt be serious…
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*here*
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Lara is Abagond’s own Krusty the Klown.
Ku-Klux-Klown?
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I’m going to keep quiet because I may end up getting myself banned from this site for the things I want to say to Lara. At the very least she did admitted she or he is a racist.
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“she or he is a racist.”
She, there aren’t many men named Lara.
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Lara is a jokester first and foremost. I can’t believe she is that dense! That in and of itself is hilarious! She reminds me of Ellie- Mae on the Beverly Hill Billies!
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Lara is troll, pretty much and replying to it is what it wants. Stop feeding 😀
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^ Agreed. It feeds on garbage in one end and comes out the other as poop. lol!
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I get Bulanik’s point. Not that hard, really.
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@gonaija:
‘Lara is troll, pretty much and replying to it is what it wants. Stop feeding.’
@Leigh204:
‘Agreed. It feeds on garbage in one end and comes out the other as poop. lol!”
—
So true. In other posts, he/she has referred to black people who commit crimes as “animals.” On another he/she said white women are more feminine. He/she is now trying to draw sharp contrasts between AW and BW in a subtle yet demeaning way where BW are on the short end of the stick. To make matters worse, in two comments on this particular post, there is the implication that the more racist whites are towards Blacks, the nicer blacks are, and the harder they will work for whites. She used slavery as an example. This plays into the racist stereotype that poor ol’ darkies are like children who can only be controlled by the heavy hand of the white man.
As for the title of this post, “Stereotypes have some truth to them,” our friend(?)is the true stereotype of a troll. Instead of desiring to contribute to contructive discussion where parties may disagree, it is clear to me that his/her main goal is to incite. I don’t believe he/she is just a clueless white person. Sorry.
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Nom de Plume,
You’ve really been paying attention, I appreciate that.
I’ve learned the best way to handle black women is to not be overly nice or friendly to them. For some reason, when I do that, they go out of their way to win me over. I had one call me “sweetheart” yesterday and another one give me a free coffee.
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“stereotypes are based first and foremost on “perceived” truths, thing that only look a certain way, however like most war tactics they are primarily mean’t to hurt not help, such as with any spielberg movie about Africans portraying them in a negative light to get a reaction out of the audience, and another jewish alum sarah silverman in blackface, these things are hurtful and demeaning to their target in this case Africans, and also americans have put their hatred of on others primarily, asians for example if one takes a look at the island nation of japan, they always bash Africans just look up a vid by on youtube by a one “blacktruth” and you will see what I am saying is true, japanese have a long sordid history of hatred for Africans, blackface, N-word yelling, and just all out thuggery, sad but true.
my youtube channel: xxphantommasterxx
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Stop feeding the troll (Lara), guys
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Can you please do some research for me about. Black women and Asian men, I want to date an Asian guy so bad but being that I live in Missouri it’s not that many Asian guys that date blackwomen.
How can I find my Asian soul mate?
I even joined dating sites, one Asian guy told me sometimes the families disapprove and they don’t want to be cut off.another said he didnt care(not the guy for me) I never get any hits, sometimes I think it’s because I am too black looking or dark.
I tried to do research but you are so much better at it than me.
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Hi Chocolate Princess,
I’m intrigued, if Abagond were to do some research for you how do you think it would help you? All it would be is a load of generalisations that would tell you nothing about how Asian guys think on an individual basis?
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Yikes, that request gave me the creeps, that is, hunting for a mate of a specific race/ethnicity/color whatever. Reminds me of the kind of people who want “designer” babies.
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Lol. I just want to know why is it so hard for a smart intelligent black woman like myself to find an Asian man. (no I’m not looking to have babies with them).
I am not attracted to men of other races or black men. When I am around black men I don’t have a relations type of attraction, physical or emotional attraction to any man white or black.
I met a wonderful black man and he is wonderful, great job, great life, great conversation, great to be around, and to some women a great body I mean a body like a model Tyson, and Tyrese. I just can’t see him being my soul mate. I just didn’t feel anything for him….
I know I am a passionate person and I love kissing and relations and conversation, but i was in a marriage for 9 years and within the 9 yrs with the black man. with him I lost that lust and love maybe I never had it for him.
Physically I hated having relations with him, immediately after. I use to shower and get his stench off me, and we never kissed ever one time we kissed and I got sick to my stomach.
I wish it wasn’t that was but I really like Asian men, their physique, their eyes, their walk, conversations, their smile. this guy I was best friends with before I got married was Asian and he was fun to hang out with. He was a great dresser and a great guy, but his family owns some of the largest companies here, and his mother was going to disinherit him if he and I relationship would have got any closer, And we were just friends nothing else.
So now 10 yrs later we have our own lives. He got married 5 yrs ago and his wife is Asian, he is in business mode no play. One day he sent me this long email about how he is so miserable and want out, his wife is grumpy and over barring he is getting to where he can’t stand her. He can’t leave because tradition says no. Only thing I could do was tell him pray about it, trust God, and work on making her happy so he can be happy.
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@Chocolate Princess
Well, I wish you well in your quest for happiness and hope that you meet the man of your dreams….
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@ Randy
I lived in Japan for 3 years before coming back to the US, and they arte not the super geniuses that we like to believe they are. Matter of fact most Japanese are good at cramming, plagerism, and doing repetitive things that follow a set and predictable pattern is how they work. Anything outside of an established SOP that requires critical thought, is a cause for panic.
When it comes to adjusting to certain situations that don’t fit a set script, they are lost. Common sense and being able to adjust on the fly is like kryptonite to them.
This only applies the the people I worked with not the entire country.
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hey….i’ve seen a few comments ago about black people being 15% white because of RAPE? where DO you get those statistics? On the plantations, many relationships were betweet Irish women and the black man slaves, hence the term mammy. Also back then, many black women slept with white men by choice so she could ‘lighten the line’ further down. When slavery was over and before the jimcrow laws started (theyre the ones sniffing for black blood) black women married white men —seen the movie SHOWBOAT
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I also believe that Obama is the only obvious president . Actually we may have had at least 4 black presidents so far. I have two sets of second cousins: two sisters: one sister is lightskinned and the other looks WHITE. same two parents. the other set are what you call, half european. Have you seen the euro twins with totally different colors? this doesnt happen with regular american whites. My coulsin wife is from 2 different european countries
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@ boomer babe
First, most slave owners were NOT Irish. Most Irish blood in African Americans comes from post slavery interactions between freed Blacks and dirt, poor Irish living in the cities. Like in Tennessee, for example.
Second, if you think Black women intentionally slept with their White masters to lighten up their offspring, then pack your bags, the mothership is waiting for you. I mean, really. How out of touch with reality do you have to be to believe that??
Third, interracial marriage has been against the law BEFORE slavery even ended and only ended completely in 1967. Black women marrying White men?? No, child. Just no.
I don’t know where you have been getting your facts from, but boomer babe, tighten up that research. It’s sloppy.
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On stereotypes, you might know this site: stereotype maps that make fun of stereotypes by stereotyping all the way to the kitchen. Funny in so many levels. Hope you like it!
http://alphadesigner.com/mapping-stereotypes/
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[…] "Stereotypes are not based in fact but instead make you blind to the facts. … In effect black people become a canvas on which white people paint their fears and self-serving lies. So stereotypes often become this strange mirror of white people: Whites got rich off of black slave labour. So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society. White men raped black slave women in such huge numbers that Black Americans are now 15% white. So black men are pictured as dangerous rapists. White men use to kill blacks without fear of the law. So black men are seen as violent and dangerous without fear of the law. Whites repeatedly broke their treaties with American Indians, so now “Indian giver” means someone who takes back what he promised." -Abagond – click title for whole article – […]
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[…] Read original story here. […]
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@boomerbabe
hey….i’ve seen a few comments ago about black people being 15% white because of RAPE? where DO you get those statistics? On the plantations, many relationships were betweet Irish women and the black man slaves, hence the term mammy.
What! Never mind the statistics, where on earth did this shite come from. Are you honestly telling me that you KNOW BM and WW during slavery could have a consensual relationship and still live to tell the tale?
Also back then, many black women slept with white men by choice so she could ‘lighten the line’ further down. When slavery was over and before the jimcrow laws started (theyre the ones sniffing for black blood) black women married white men —seen the movie SHOWBOAT
Ah I see. BP in these times had choices. Why didnt you say so. So, when the ‘massa’ comes down the slave quarters to take whatever BW he wants, cos he owns her, she could actually say ‘not tonight love, i’ve got a terrible headache’. Have a serious word with yourself please….
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“What! Never mind the statistics, where on earth did this shite come from. Are you honestly telling me that you KNOW BM and WW during slavery could have a consensual relationship and still live to tell the tale?”
– – –
It is true. Actually many Free Persons of Color were either the offspring or descendants of white women, often poor whites or indentured servants, and Black male slaves. I suspect that an Irish-surnamed “Mulatto” carpenter in my own family tree was the offspring of an Irish woman.
Also in states, such as New York, many Black tradesmen took destitute Irish immigrant women as wives. For the men it was seen as a step up; for the women it was a way out of poverty or even starvation.
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Lynchings of Black men who were accused of raping white women, or even simply whistling at them, mainly occured post-emancipation –that is, in the decades following the end of slavery. Black men during the slavery era itself certainly weren’t free to copulate with any white woman of their choosing, but incidents of BM / WF coupling weren’t as uncommon as many people today believe they were.
Lots of Black Americans have Irish surnames (there are 3 in my family on my mother’s side alone), as many of the Irish were poor and were themselves persecuted by Anglo-American whites, and therefore probably weren’t slaveholders, I doubt that very many of these surnames amongst Black Americans are simply due to the freed slaves taking on a slaveholder’s last name.
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@Fiamma
Whilst I realise that IR relations of a kind must well have existed, is there any evidence prior to emancipation to suggest that this did not go unpunished if discovered? Wouldnt this have to have been ‘hush hush?’ White is white after all, regardless of class…
BTW, In my immediate family I too carry a celtic surname, due to Inter marriage – and there are many more in my lineage, so I know very well this can and did happen in other parts of the world too.
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@Fiamma
Having re-read the comments, I see what you are saying. Of course some consensual relationships must have and did emerge. I am just sceptical that it did not get ‘addressed’ simply because the WP in question was deemed ‘less than’
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Demerara,
The Irish here were not generally considered white until sometime during the 20th Century, I believe, so sexual relations between them and Black men would not necessarily have been viewed as miscegenation. There are many illustrations from the 19th Century depiting the Irish as apes– they really, really were heavily persecuted here in earlier eras. There may have been acts violence against some of these unions, but it’s not really mentioned in anything I’ve read on the topic.
Also, many of the incidents of sexual unions between Black men and poor white women seem to have take place in the 17th & 18th centuries and became fewer and fewer up to and after emancipation until the 1980’s or thereabouts.
Below is a passage I just quickly found:
“The superior morality which characterized the upper ranks of white women, so adequately protected by slavery, did not exist in anything like the same degree among the poorer classes, and occasional marriages, more or less legal, between free Negroes and slaves and poor white women, resulted in at least a small number of colored children, who followed the condition of their white mothers.”
http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/works/Essays/free.html
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@Fiamma
“The superior morality which characterized the upper ranks of white women, so adequately protected by slavery, did not exist in anything like the same degree among the poorer classes, and occasional marriages, more or less legal, between free Negroes and slaves and poor white women, resulted in at least a small number of colored children, who followed the condition of their white mothers.”
Thank you for this. I do wonder whether in part is has been put forward as a way to explain away the numerous ‘brown babies’ that emerged as a product of the sexual abuse of the slave owners towards BW at that time though.
That’s just me maybe though – ever the sceptic 🙂
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Bulanik,
The descendants of most of those brown babies are now referred to as “Blacks”.
How the catchall labeling started according to my research is that in 1910, in my home state of Tennessee, as a matter of fact, census takers began labeling all individuals of discernible African descent as “Colored”.
On census forms previous to that, the 1880 census in particular, mixed-raced Blacks were labeled Mulatto / “M”. Then, 30 years after that (1910), Blacks had supposedly become so mixed that it was decided that census takers would simply write in “Colored” for all Blacks, regardless of appearance. Other states followed suit, and Colored as a racial identifier soon came into common usage (as a small child I had elderly relatives who still referred to themselves and other Blacks as being “Colored”).
I have no idea how / why the next change occurred, however by 1930, all Blacks, regardless of visible admixture, were labeled “Negro” on the 1930 US Federal Census (I’ve seen all this for myself on microfilm copies of actual US census forms from the mid-19th century to the early 20th century). One set my ancestors – those I’ve been actually been able to trace – went from Mulatto to Colored to Negro over the course of 50 years time.
My opinion, though, as to what physically happened to most of the brown babies, is that they married / procreated mainly with Blacks, which in turn has lead to the majority of Black Americans now being, on average, 17%-25% genetically European. Others of the brown babies procreated with whites, and some of the offspring resulting from those unions quietly disappeared into whiteness. A few of the brown babies formed the so-called tri-racial isolate groups or blended with Native American tribes. The remainder attempted to stay unchanged by procreating only with others like them….
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I also should mention that the link I posted upthread only concerns one state, North Carolina. Circumstances affecting the lives of Free persons of color and indentured servants varied according to state, region and / or timeframe. Also, laws concerning “miscegenation” / amalgamation that were on the books, weren’t necessarily diligently enforced as is sometimes assumed.
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[…] "Stereotypes are not based in fact but instead make you blind to the facts. … In effect black people become a canvas on which white people paint their fears and self-serving lies. So stereotypes often become this strange mirror of white people: Whites got rich off of black slave labour. So blacks are pictured as not wanting to work hard, as being a drain on society. White men raped black slave women in such huge numbers that Black Americans are now 15% white. So black men are pictured as dangerous rapists. White men use to kill blacks without fear of the law. So black men are seen as violent and dangerous without fear of the law. Whites repeatedly broke their treaties with American Indians, so now “Indian giver” means someone who takes back what he promised." -Abagond – click title for whole article – […]
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[…] “Stereotypes have some truth to them”. […]
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Not ALL Asians are studious. Only those from particular regions in Asia; northern Asia. Also, only the immigrants are “studious” in their works. Asians who have been here for multiple generations usually become as lazy as other Americans. Stereotypes DO hold some truth, I think. Blacks are, on average, less intelligent than whites. Before I’m called a racist I would like everyone to know, I’m black. Secondly, I don’t think the difference between the groups is because of genetics. People who believe in genetic differences usually want to assuage their guilt of being a racist. Blacks, on average, don’t place a high value on education. Other things are valued in black culture that are far more important. Not only do blacks not place a high value on education, some don’t even believe they can achieve at the same level of whites or asians. This, in particular, is a problem. It’s also one reason blacks have to detach themselves from the European social hierarchy. It will take sometime, but I believe it’s possible.
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Bottom line, no one likes being stereotyped. It sucks to be pushed into a singular group, and told who you are etc. Stereotypes probably have a bend to them.
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“I think. Blacks are, on average, less intelligent than whites.”
This depends on what you mean. If you mean that Whites (demographically) achieve higher levels of education, and a better quality education, then yes. If you think of intelligence as learning aptitude, then no.
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The thing that cracks me up is this: the amount of stereotyping of white attitudes in this thread is astounding. If you’re a fan of irony, bookmark this page.
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Prepare for your mind being blown:
Your attribution of stereotypes to confirmation bias results from confirmation bias with respect to the origin of stereotypes.
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I admit I LOVE watermelon. So? I can’t get enough of it. It’s sooo tasty and good for you.
Another stereotype about Asians that gets me is the practice of eating dogs. So far, I’ve never met one Asian in my life who has eaten dogs. Granted, there are some people in certain parts of Asia who eat dogs, but the same can be said of Europeans who have consumed dog meat at one point. Actually, I stand corrected. I have eaten dogs. Do hot dogs count?
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[…] There is some truth to stereotypes. […]
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[…] Regarding Stereotypes […]
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Stereotypes may some truth to them. However, stereotypes are rooted in racism. I heard a White stand-up comic (I won’t give his name) crack racial jokes about Black, Asian and White Americans. After his racial jokes (to a packed diverse audience) he did say they were all racial stereotypes rooted in American racism. I have the stand-up comic’s racial jokes on DVD. Here are some of them:
Black joke: “Where does a White man go to find his future Black wife? He goes to a run down, inner-city strip club.”
Asian joke: “Where does a White man go to find his future Asian wife? He goes to the nearest college library.”
White joke: “Where does a Black man go to find his future White wife? He goes to a dog park with his pet poodle.”
Black joke: “How do you know if a Black person burglarized your garage? Your BBQ grill is gone.”
Asian joke: “How do you know if an Asian person burglarized your home? Your pet dog is missing and the kids’ school homework is done.”
White joke: “How do you know if a country was stolen by White people? The native population is one percent of the total population.”
Black joke: “How do you know if a car belongs to a Black guy? The car has 25-inch rims on low-profile tires.”
Asian joke: “How do you know if a sports car belongs to an Asian guy? The sports car is sitting very low with two huge, exhaust pipe tips.”
White joke: “How do you know if a truck belongs to a White guy? The truck is sitting 10 feet from the tires.”
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Not all whites i consider bad people but they have the same blood of their ancestors and those ancestors have put their dna into the black race which has caused a country of destruction. A ticking time bomb…why is it that from what we have discovered of early humans most of the war stories are of european descent?…why is it that white people portray themselves as egyptians in movies?…why is jesus considered white by americans when the bible suggests jesus was born in africa…in my eyes most people, specifically the ancestors of euro descent are workers for the devil…they lie, decieve, and kill to create a false illusion that they are the prime example of what a human being is…in my eyes they were created to destroy the originaters…innovaters…gods people…they come from the caucaus mountains…they were not born in the most beautiful land of all with riches…call me racist if you like but the people who have a heart that do not show hatred have no place in the world now…the american dream is false entitlement of freedom…its about selfishness and conquering those who despise of your wealth….why is it that we have to lie to get a job?…why cant we help one another?…why does the govt. help other countries in need instead of its own?…its false information by the media making you think we help other countries instead of showing that we are conquering other countries and territories little by little…its a hoax…as people we need to think for ourselves and be open minded and come together to resolve worldly issues and make the planet a better place.
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magnificent points altogether, you just won a new reader. What might you suggest in regards to your post that you simply made some days in the past? Any certain?
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What you’re mentioning about stereotypes reminds me of something I’ve been studying about orientalist philosophy pushed by English writers. I found this article on the use of the term Saracen, an orientalist term often applied to Muslims in the Mediterranean region and Asia, but they weren’t the only ones called this: sometimes Saxons (including Anglo-Saxons) were called Saracens, and less commonly so were Scandinavians. Here’s the link:
http://digitalcommons.brockport.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=jlo
This article mentions the English trying to differentiate themselves from Muslims through the use of the appellation Saracen, but then tries to say this wasn’t an example of orientalism in practice:
https://dalspace.library.dal.ca/handle/10222/39092
The use of “Disorienting Orientalism” in the title is an interesting pun, which I presume we’re meant to take as orientalism not really being present and misleading the researcher, but I take the term a different way: For me, “disorienting orientalism” here would be “orientalist philosophy as red herring”, a way to take the othering gaze off the self,–due to these “parallels” between Anglo-Saxons and the Muslims under discussion–and put it onto someone else, as orientalist gaze. Religion played an important part here, but I’m sure race is still relevant here, and so disagree with the author of this article.
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