A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing.
Jennifer N. Gutsell and Michael Inzlicht of the University of Toronto took 30 White Canadian students and showed them videos of people drinking water. The twist is that the people were of different races and while they watched their brain waves were being recorded by an EEG machine.
When they watched white people drinking a cup of water their brain waves increased from the part of the brain that controls drinking. Not as much as when they drank water for themselves (also measured) but noticeably. But when they watched blacks and Asians drink it was almost as if they were watching a blank screen!!!
When you watch someone do something mirror neurons are fired in your brain. They are right near the neurons you would use if you did the same thing for yourself. It is why, for example, when you watch someone dive your muscles kind of stiffen and you kind of hold your breath – even though you are not the one diving into the water.
Your brain mirrors what you are seeing; it helps you to imagine yourself in their shoes. But for white people this only works when they are watching other white people – not when they watch people of colour!
The actors in the videos were all men of university age: three whites, three blacks, three East Asians and three South Asians. They made sure to use actors whom whites regard as equally good-looking and likeable.
East Asians, considered a model minority in Canada, produced the most brain output from whites but it was still close to zero. Blacks came second and South Asians third. Studies have shown that White Canadians dislike South Asians even more than blacks.
Gutsell and Inzlicht also measured the white students on the Symbolic Racism Scale. The more racist a student the less he reacted to what he saw people of colour do – though it did not affect how he reacted to whites.
Gutsell and Inzlicht think that mirror neurons are part of what empathy is built on. Meaning that whites are cold-hearted when they look at people of colour. Not as something wired into their brains from birth but as something learned.
Are whites that cold-hearted when it comes to people of colour? There are plenty of other studies that show it. It also helps to make sense of things like police brutality, the Missing White Woman Syndrome and how blacks receive worse health care than whites regardless of wealth. Katrina also springs to mind – among other things.
But there is another possible reason besides cold-heartedness which has yet to be ruled out: white people simply pay less attention to people of colour – not out of heartlessness but simply because they regard them as less important.
See also:
- Gutsell & Inzlicht: Empathy constrained: Prejudice predicts reduced mental simulation of actions during observation of outgroups [PDF]
- Other blog posts on this study:
- Our Stories (My Sisters & Brothers!) and Theirs (White People)
- The hearts of white people – wherein I argue they are born with the same hearts as blacks but they are turned to stone by the power they have
- white gaze
- The police
- The Missing White Woman Syndrome
- Katrina
- the eight stages of genocide – one of the stages is not seeing the pariahs as being truly human anymore
Intriguing study. And something that I’ve observed often as well, on this blog and in real life. I think it’s due to a combination of apathy, cold-heartedness, and “othering.” The last (itself due to the history of colonialism and the resulting structure of Westerrn society) being the springboard of the former two.
I also think the researchers were a bit quick on the draw with the conclusion that this is about ingroup v. outgroup. Would black or Asians respond the same way to whites? For many reasons, I think not.
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Did they do this same study with blacks or Asians?
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Very interesting post. I wonder how some racist white Americans feel when they hear of studies such as these? Or any white person for that matter…
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Basically it all goes back to empathy and seeing people as human, ie “one of them”
The more “other” you are to the people being monitored the less likely they will have a neural response to your actions… Interesting…
I would like to see how non-whites respond.
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Ó Dochartaigh: No.
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Same question as Ó Dochartaigh.
I don’t know…I don’t place much faith in articles that say “A new study…”
There’s just something off about this…I’m not naive enough to think that people don’t see race at all, but I don’t think I’m cynical enough to be believe this, especially with sentences like this:
” But when they watched blacks and Asians drink it was almost as if they were watching a blank screen!!!”
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Natasha and OD,
Good point. This study couldn’t be done in the US (with National Institute of Mental Health funding, which is what you want to get to be considered worth your salt, anyway), because you can’t exclude women and minorities from a study without a good reason (i.e., you are measuring heartrate of White men specifically). And it reeks of bad science (I wonder if it was mentioned in their Discussion section) to generalize to “all people” from just White people. I’d be surprised if that made it through to publication without some really crafty explanations on the part of the authors.
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@ Jasmin: My sentiments exactly.
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Crissa,
“There’s just something off about this…I’m not naive enough to think that people don’t see race at all, but I don’t think I’m cynical enough to be believe this, especially with sentences like this:
” But when they watched blacks and Asians drink it was almost as if they were watching a blank screen!!!”
Are you white? Just wondering.
I consider myself to be a bit jaded, but regardless, I would be lying if I said this study doesn’t match my everyday experiences with whites responses to “others.” And I’m not just jumping on the bandwagon because I want to vilify white people.
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The paper was written in terms of ingroups and outgroups but in the post I dropped all that because the only ingroup studied were whites. Since racism is not symmetrical it is dangerous to assume blacks and Asians would react the same way.
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LOL No.
I am Black.
But I come from a very diverse place (Central Texas, military town)
I read these articles about how much tension there is between white and black people, and like I said, I’m not naive enough to say that there is tension, but I’ve never experienced some of the things others say they have.
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The findings are a bit more extreme than I would have expected, but not unbelievably so.
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I don’t find it the least bit unbelievable.
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Crissa,
Cool. I think military towns are much more integrated and diverse-friendly than most U.S. towns; interracial marriages of all sorts are more common in military towns for that reason.
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I am not from a military family but from what I understand the military is markedly less racist than American society in general.
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That seems to be the case. 🙂
Being from a military town, I’m aware of people’s race, but it’s not a big deal to me.
So when I read articles like this…it’s hard for me to think that it’s *that* serious.
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Crissa, I perceive people the same way, initially. But it’s been my experience that many whites do not. Race is quite important to them, although they would never say so. It seems to color (no pun intended) what they believe about a person, how they react to a person, etc.
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I’ve heard that military towns have both benefits and drawbacks with regards to interracial marriages. One wife in an interracial couple (BW/WM) says there are certain stereotypes that come along with that life, but I’ll have to ask her more about it.
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I think this study shows that whites don’t see non-whites as “one of them”, meaning, they are not able to picture themselves in their place. Take that diving example: we are holding our breath while watching these clips because we imagine ourselves diving. It looks like whites are unable to do that kind of association with people who are not white (which is all back to “only whites are regular humans”).
Still, I don’t think it can be seen as “valid” in any form without other groups involved. Why didn’t they test non-whites, to measure their reactions? This is VERY important, dare to say crucial.
Also, just for the test purposes, I’d make clips with animals or animated clips (chimpanzee drinking water, CGI figure drinks water) to see if there’s a reaction. Following these logic, animals and animations should not be able to trigger a reaction.
All in all, it’s interesting, but incomplete study. I’d like to know about the non-white people reactions.
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Mira,
“Still, I don’t think it can be seen as “valid” in any form without other groups involved. “
Right: it’s only valid in terms of whites.
“Why didn’t they test non-whites, to measure their reactions?”
They were defining “in-group” (that’s what the study was based around) as someone who shared the participant’s race/ethnicity. I suppose they could have done separate, related studies with Asians and blacks, but they seem to have erroneously thought that a sampling of whites was sufficient enough to draw conclusions about all people.
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I was in the military for four years, and it is definitely less racist than the rest of society. Barriers are broken down not only during training, but within the military community as a whole: Schools, towns, neighborhoods. -community events, social gatherings, etc…
Don’t get me wrong, there are still prejudiced people (or all backgrounds) but much less so than in mainstream society. I had a VERY, VERY hard time adjusting to life as a University Student in the Midwest after serving… (I took me a few months to shake the feeling that I had stepped into the Twilight Zone. I was like: What is wrong with everybody and their attitudes???)
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@ Abagond –
I’m shocked. I would like to see a lot more studies along these same lines. This just doesn’t “make sense” to me personally.
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They were defining “in-group” (that’s what the study was based around) as someone who shared the participant’s race/ethnicity. I suppose they could have done separate, related studies with Asians and blacks, but they seem to have erroneously thought that a sampling of whites was sufficient enough to draw conclusions about all people.
Right. And that was their main mistake. (Not to mention it could be judged as either very racist or very stupid).
Non-white reaction is crucial for understanding. If non-whites show similar reactions (reacting only to people of their own race), it proves one point. If they, too, react on white people only it shows something completely different. Same goes for no reaction for anybody or same reaction for everybody.
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An interesting study!!
With regard to your closing line, if you do not mind. I have modified it to read:
“But there is another possible reason apart from ‘prejudice’ which has yet to be ruled out: the ‘in group’ simply pay less attention to the ‘out group’ because of ‘selective attention with regard to the act of of perception’ based perhaps upon some aspects within the brain and/or ‘motivation’ of the in-group.
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To all that are surprised or shocked by these findings: why? Have your experiences told you differently?
I wasn’t at all shocked. I thought it should be obvious to anyone in North America that whites are less responsive to other groups of people.
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@Natasha –
I’m “shocked”. I mean, I’m just me and I’m trying to communicate what “I” feel and how I “perceive” things. I would really like to see more work done in this area. You gotta remember though that I’m not like “most White Americans” although I am in fact White. (not going to derail, but if you want to understand what I’m saying just have Abagond shoot me a message.)
My experiences have told me differently Natasha, which is why the study left me a bit dumbfounded.
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Yes. My experiences have told me otherwise. That’s part of it.
Another part is how this study is worded; how it seems to give off a notion that white people straight up don’t care about people outside their race. This article is not written with a fair tone.
Like so many others have said, it would make more sense to do a study of other races, and see how they reacted as well. This single study is shallow because it doesn’t offer much without anything to compare it to.
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Very insightful that ‘science’ is now proving what many minorities have known all along..hehehe. I see these same results play out daily. What I do find interesting is that when a white person is in a menial position they some how want to be friendlier to minorities, I always find this somewhat amusing.
I honestly do not believe it is an issue of nurture. I believe white ppl are hardwired by their DNA coding to be cold. But that is just my belief, it’s not gospel.
Abagond, did you ever analyze the Malaysian President speech that was given about the legacy of Europe? I believe he gave that speech around 2005 or so, not sure on the year.
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ColorofLuv, I understand you haven’t had the “typical” white experience (….or do I? Anything else you haven’t shared? You could just bump a post and add it). But thinking from the vantage point of other whites (not your family/friends), does it seem more plausible?
Crissa, how the study is worded or how this post is worded? The study didn’t imply anything about whites specifically.
I was wondering if I could reproduce this study with blacks and/or Asians. Psychology isn’t my field, but I could collaborate with other researchers. It seems simple enough if one could find participants that meet the criteria.
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I wasn’t shocked with the results. Still, I’d love to see results of non-whites so draw any conclusions.
Natasha, I think the tricky part is how to measure brain activity (if I understand, that’s what they did).
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I believe this is true. I often feel ignored by whites when I’m out in the world. They pass me by as if I don’t exist, or in one instance a bus driver completely left me and another gentleman at the curb even though we were walking up to the bus (the guy was a PoC as well).
I think when you are in a typically all-white venue or environment – like the Opera – that’s when they are more llikely to notice you. Because you don’t “belong” there.
Even with my husband (who is white) and his friends, I never met previously met, I’ve been standing right next to him and they don’t even notice another person is there.
I always wondered if it was my imagination that white folk did not see me, but now science has proved I’m not crazy!
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“Gutsell and Inzlicht also measured the white students on the Symbolic Racism Scale. The more racist a student the less he reacted to what he saw people of colour do – though it did not affect how he reacted to whites.”
The level of reaction overall to nonwhites was close to zero, so the variation by level of racism does not mean much.
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Wow. People identify more with those who look like them. Who would of thunk it?
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Mira, they used an EEG machine. Which isn’t that hard to come by if you’re always near research schools/labs, which I usually am.
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Wow. People identify more with those who look like them. Who would of thunk it?
The problem is, this study didn’t prove that. All they showed was that white people had stronger reaction on white people.
That’s why we need more data (with non-whites) to form any further conclusions.
Mira, they used an EEG machine. Which isn’t that hard to come by if you’re always near research schools/labs, which I usually am.
Well, in that case, it would be great to make your own study or something (with people of all races) to see if non-whites react differently.
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Poetess, exactly. I’ve had the same/similar experiences.
FG, the point was there was a significant difference between the reaction to the ingroup v. the outgroup(s). Of course, any person’s response to another person wouldn’t be extremely high (after all, it is not themselves performing the action and it’s a neutral action instead of one that would evoke strong emotions); that’s not the point.
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Mabel,
“I honestly do not believe it is an issue of nurture. I believe white ppl are hardwired by their DNA coding to be cold. But that is just my belief, it’s not gospel.”
Well, their DNA isn’t different from that of others. So I don’t know about that.
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^More on the above, the sympathy shown by whites during 9/11 was unlike any I’ve ever seen. They showed hurt, anger, alarm, and still do. Their reactions proved they are not cold and unfeeling. It’s just that they mainly care about those that they feel are like them, i.e. white.
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I agree with Natasha: the DNA is the same… It’s the whole point behind “race is social, not biological” argument. Biologically, “white people” don’t exist.
It’s all about the nurture, backed with a bit of biology, maybe (people tend to dislike those who are “different” than them, and this seems to be universal. However, what makes someone “different” is cultural. A blond, blue eyed white man is more different to me than a dark haired, dark eyed black woman… If you ask me. What people of one group see as “different” is completely cultural).
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Mira,
“people tend to dislike those who are “different” than them, and this seems to be universal. “
I don’t dislike people who are different from me. I tend to only dislike people who do me or those I’m close to wrong. But even that doesn’t last.
I know the last point must be true because once I saw this woman I hated for years (and I mean hated, we had a serious falling out) being beaten up by these two people and my first impulse was to try and help her. It was like all my hate melted away. And I cried after I saw her bruises. She was Middle Easterner, so she wasn’t like me in terms of ethnicity.
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I didn’t mean on personal dislike, more of a group dislike. Not sure how to explain it, but there seems to be a mechanism in every group to pay attention on those outside it. (We are X (and we are normal), they are Y, and they are different. They are not like us). This kind of labeling seem to exist in animal groups, but of course, humans use different mechanisms. They use culture to label who make “us” and tho are “them”.
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With regard to:
“People identify more with those who look like them. Who would of thunk it?
The problem is, this study didn’t prove that. All they showed was that white people had stronger reaction on white people.”
If we are sticking ‘true’ to the study. It revealed that prejudicial Whites will identify and ’empathise’ with someone who looks like them, as opposed to ‘People of Color’
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With regard to:
“I honestly do not believe it is an issue of nurture. I believe white ppl are hardwired by their DNA coding to be cold. But that is just my belief, it’s not gospel.”
There are theories advocated by Diop, Bradley and even Freud, if I have remembered correctly citing Bradley, amongst others who have offered theories on this subject matter
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If we are sticking ‘true’ to the study. It revealed that prejudicial Whites will identify and ‘empathise’ with someone who looks like them, as opposed to ‘People of Color’
True, true.
Still, there’s one thing that bugs me. What does “look like them” really mean?
I’ll use my previous example again (this time with female examples).
Example 1: http://www.martinipink.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/gabrielle-union-2.jpg
Example 2: http://glaadblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/parishilton_caulfield_8572072.jpg
Hotness (or lack thereof) aside, what makes example 2 look like me (a dark eyed brunette)? NOTHING. I repeat: nothing. I share more physical features with the lady in the first example (I’m not that hot, but the colour of her eyes and her hair is more similar to mine and even a body more similar to mine). So if I react to example 2, but not 1 (who “looks” more like me), what does that say about me?
In other words… Whites react to other whites who don’t really look like them! This is important thing to note.
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“Hotness (or lack thereof) aside, what makes example 2 look like me (a dark eyed brunette)? NOTHING. I repeat: nothing. I share more physical features with the lady in the first example (I’m not that hot, but the colour of her eyes and her hair is more similar to mine and even a body more similar to mine). So if I react to example 2, but not 1 (who “looks” more like me), what does that say about me?”
Um … when deciding who you looked more similar to, I think you overlooked the skin color and facial features dimensions, which people tend to find important.
I hope you don’t have an inferiority complex with respect to these Nordic/Germanic-type Euros with their blue eyes 😉
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You know if you want to foster peace, and goodwill with white people why bring up all these studies which are not true of every white person! You’ll notice this study was only 30 white students, and for it to be a really conclusive study you would need more than that 30. Another interesting observation is what are blacks and asian’s reactions when seeing a white person take a drink of water? Or does the racism only last on one side?
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Um … when deciding who you looked more similar to, I think you overlooked the skin color and facial features dimensions, which people tend to find important.
Exactly. But what makes them think it’s important? Culture, not biology. There’s no biological reason for skin colour to be more important than hair colour when deciding whether a person “looks like you” or not.
I hope you don’t have an inferiority complex with respect to these Nordic/Germanic-type Euros with their blue eyes 😉
No, I don’t. I just don’t see those people as “my own group”. What’s interesting to note is that my grandma was part Austrian and Polish and I look a bit like her, and this includes skin colour- very, very light, which makes me one of the lightest people I know (and this make people around me see me as way too light and “different”).
Oh, and btw “hotness aside” was more about Gabrielle Union than Paris Hilton- I don’t find Paris attractive at all.
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With regard to:
“Still, there’s one thing that bugs me. What does “look like them” really mean?”
Simply to ‘look White’ to all intense and purpose. And since this is a study based on prejudice. In this context it would also make sense
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I would like to see how the study plays out when they measure blacks watching whites and asians, and asians watching whites and blacks.
The study suggested/generalized that “people” have “selective attention and motivation [and] favor ingroup members such that ingroups are processed in greater depth than outgroup members” p12 …and though [white] “people” who are higher in prejudiced mentalities… “might not be as responsive to outgroup member’s needs and feelings and be less likely to understand their intentions; they might also be less likely to help and effectively communicate with them.
On the positive side, even if we do not intuitively grasp outgroup members’ inner states; there may be ways to compensate. Cognitive perspective taking, for example, can increase interpersonal sensitivity and understanding, thereby reducing prejudice”
I guess, overall, they are saying that it is possible for people to overcome their outgroup biases by working to identify with the “others”. Basically, nurture vs nature? If one is raised to identify and be empathetic with others they are more likely to feel and have a heart towards those of other races.
As a white girl I’d like to think that there are a large number of empathetic people in my color group, but since I dont’ experience the racism of white people I don’t have qualified negative experiences with whites to speak from.
Though the study didn’t include all racial groups I do think it would find similar results with all races. I think most racial groups identify primarily and strongly with those who look like themselves…
The study also made me think of the world at large – ie the others who populate the planet – fish, foul and four legged friends. Birds of a feather flock together – and how often do you see schools of fish that are made up of random varieties of finned friends? Anyway, that’s not meant to equate people with animals, but in so many ways things that look alike tend to stick together – it’s easier for most “people” to identify with and understand the motivations of someone that looks similar, right?
Also – the study excluded lefties – why?
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“No, I don’t. I just don’t see those people as “my own group”. What’s interesting to note is that my grandma was part Austrian and Polish and I look a bit like her, and this includes skin colour- very, very light, which makes me one of the lightest people I know (and this make people around me see me as way too light and “different”).”
Hmmm, I thought almost everyone in Eastern Europe was extremely “light”, except for Gypsies.
“Oh, and btw ‘hotness aside’ was more about Gabrielle Union than Paris Hilton- I don’t find Paris attractive at all.”
You’re kidding, right? I think Paris is all that. Not so much because of here blonde hair and blue eyes but because she has a great face.
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Paris Hilton looks like a bird. Fact.
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Hmmm, I thought almost everyone in Eastern Europe was extremely “light”, except for Gypsies.
No. Not Balkan peoples at least. People here are not too dark, and about 1/4 of people have blue eyes, but they are, on average, closer to the Mediterranean type than the Scandinavians.
Serbian Davis Cup team:

You’re kidding, right? I think Paris is all that. Not so much because of here blonde hair and blue eyes but because she has a great face.
To be honest, you’re the first guy I know who said he liked Paris! Nothing wrong with that, but I don’t find her attractive. And as someone who is a thick brunette, I’d never say Paris and I have any similar features. Skin colour might be the only thing (but her skin is tanned, so not even that). 😛
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Im curious how they interpret these electoral impulse reations or non reactions in the brain .
What if these white people had bigger reactions for people of color ? I would think that would implicate something , not non reaction.
Yeah, it would be great to see tests all the way around of all types of people and how they react to photos.
I have no idea what this test means , I dont beleive I would have the same reaction or non reaction, at least that is what I think, I cant really tell about sub condious brain waves.
But riddle me this :
If American white people are like this test , and , dont notice black people or other people with differances , why have they been peeping on black culture in America for so long, checking it out from the side , then doing their imitation, and, making it a major part of their cultural social /musical and dance expresion ?
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blurredstripes,
“Though the study didn’t include all racial groups I do think it would find similar results with all races. I think most racial groups identify primarily and strongly with those who look like them.”
This goes back to what Mira was saying: how do we determine who looks like us? Why wasn’t there a difference by gender? After all, don’t females share many more physical traits with each other than they do with males? How about height/weight? The list goes on.
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What? Paris Hilton has a great face?! Really???
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@Natasha W:
LOL! I think you’re on to something. 😀
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Natasha – who looks like us is subjective, probably…
A woman moved into the first floor apartment next door to me last weekend. She’s very dark, thin like me, smaller hips, similar facial features to me – high cheek bones, eye structure, etc – I feel like if her skin were white – or if my skin were black -we would look very similar. I immediately identified with her, felt empathetic and wanted to help her feel welcome to the neighborhood. If she were larger than me, had rounder facial features, walked slower, etc I know I wouldn’t feel the same about wanting to bond and hang out – but I wouldn’t dislike her, I just wouldn’t feel the same. As for the new neighbor I see someone similar to me in her and thus my interest level increased.
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Now, Paris is not the ugliest woman on the Earth, but I don’t consider her to be a beauty, to be honest. Of course, men should decide. Now, back to most gorgeous Asian man post…
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Paris Hilton looks like a bird. Fact.
I LOLed so hard…
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“Crissa, how the study is worded or how this post is worded? The study didn’t imply anything about whites specifically.”
The study was about white people, or did I missed something.
“Are whites that cold-hearted when it comes to people of colour?”
—
I don’t mean to sound like I’m an apologist for white people, because I’m not, but if we want studies and such to prove that there are disparities between blacks and whites, (and other races) they’ve got to be better than this. ‘Tis all I’m saying.
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“You’re kidding, right? I think Paris is all that. Not so much because of here blonde hair and blue eyes but because she has a great face.”
Dislike.
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They kicked off test subjects who were left-handed because they process things like drinking on the opposite side of the brain. Using only right-handed people made the set-up and measurement more consistent.
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They also kicked off those who did not self-identify as “Caucasian”.
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This remarkable study reminds me observations about of yawning.
If a good friend yawns, I will probably yawn too. If someone I don’t have a close relationship to or a stranger yawns, I won’t.
This yawning thing, another form of mirroring, really, also suggests who has the most power in relationships.
I watch for this in staff meetings, too. It gives you an idea of who likes who or who is vulnerable to who in office dynamics. Ms. X may yawn when Dr. Y yawns, but not the reverse, but he will when Dr. Z yawns.
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Hmmm… I yawn whenever I see somebody yawns. Even someone on TV. At least in my case, it has nothing to do with liking or disliking a person. But I guess seeing a family member will trigger a stronger yawn reaction (lol) than someone on TV.
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Natasha,
I was a bit surprised by this study because the study of mirror neurons is pretty new. I took a Perception class last semester and I remember we talked about studies done with monkeys, but the idea was that one could learn how to do a task with help from the firing of mirror neurons. So I was confused as all get out when they started talking about empathy in the study synopsis, but I am much more interested in social and cognitive psych than neuroscience so I just shrugged. Bottom line, you’d need to replicate this study a bunch of times before something like this would be worthy of headlines.
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blurredstripes said
“Though the study didn’t include all racial groups I do think it would find similar results with all races. I think most racial groups identify primarily and strongly with those who look like them.”
I disagree. That assumes that racism is symmetrical and in North America it is not:
1. Blacks and Asians are outnumbered by whites and so are forced to notice how whites think and feel and act. That is the very reason I posted on this subject in the first place.
2. From school and television blacks and Asians receive the very same white racist messages day after day that whites do. They live in a culture that humanizes whites and dehumanizes themselves.
While I think blacks in general would react more strongly to blacks than to whites, their reaction to whites would NOT be close to zero. There would even be a good number of blacks who would react more strongly to whites than to blacks.
Just as black racism is not a mirror image of white racism, so the way blacks would act in an experiment like this would not be a mirror image of whites.
But that of course is just speculation on my part. Nothing beats doing the experiment for real.
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Oh, and I think Gabrielle Union is way hotter than Paris Hilton. It is not even close.
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Abagond
“Oh, and I think Gabrielle Union is way hotter than Paris Hilton. It is not even close.”
I second that! There is no comparison.
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“Oh, and I think Gabrielle Union is way hotter than Paris Hilton. It is not even close.”
Preach, lol.
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What’s unfortunate about PH is that she didn’t get prettier even with plastic surgery! Admittedly, she was not attractive pre-surgery, but if you are going to spend all that money, you better turn out gorgeous.
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I guess it’s an unpopular thing to say, but Paris is a very beautiful girl. She’s hated for her beauty in fact.
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FG,
By who? You are the first person I’ve ever heard call her beautiful (well, anything other than “unattractive at best”, really)–I thought there was a “general concensus” (well, as general as the media’s opinion can be) that she’s not very pretty. Hence why she’s billed as a socialite and heiress, not a beauty.
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hmmm…are white people (some) more cold-hearted towards blacks and other minorities…that’s a definite possibility, history and the present would agree w/ that I think…
lynching postcards:
http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/
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As it turns out, this study was well worth publishing simply for the fun of watching certain white folks get worked up and sputter random illogic in response.
Probably the most striking reaction among the, let’s just say, defensive white set is the palpable desire to define perceptions of race as symmetrical between racial/ethnic groups rather than asymmetrical due to the incontrovertibly asymmetrical nature of five centuries of white supremacist colonialism and overwhelming white influence on mass media and cognitive and cultural conditioning. Look at the comments, they don’t say, “This data is an interesting contribution, adding contextualized value to a growing body of knowledge”, rather they growl, “I want to see results for people of color! they’re racist too dammit!” Hehe, I love it.
Peace.
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Well geez Kai, quite a few people saying they would like to see results of people of color are people of color.
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leigh,
Lol. I know I couldn’t be the only person that thinks she bears a striking resemble to our feathered friends. But I was thinking more along the line of “parakeet.”
Y,
🙂
Crissa,
“The study was about white people, or did I missed something.
I don’t mean to sound like I’m an apologist for white people, because I’m not, but if we want studies and such to prove that there are disparities between blacks and whites, (and other races) they’ve got to be better than this. ‘Tis all I’m saying.”
I guess you didn’t read the study…
The study was not about white people and their racism. The study was measuring sensitivity of participants to members of their ingroup vs. members of outgroup(s). They used white people exclusively only because they needed to have an “in-group.” The conclusion they came to was about all people, not just white people.
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Jasmin,
“I took a Perception class last semester and I remember we talked about studies done with monkeys, but the idea was that one could learn how to do a task with help from the firing of mirror neurons. So I was confused as all get out when they started talking about empathy in the study synopsis”
Mirror neurons are a fairly recent discovery, but there has been more than enough research that has linked the mirror system to empathy. So this study had a pretty solid basis.
“…but I am much more interested in social and cognitive psych than neuroscience so I just shrugged.”
I’m the opposite: social psych can not keep my attention, but neuroscience is fascinating. But I think that’s because neuro is more or less biology, with an overlay of psych.
abagond,
“1. Blacks and Asians are outnumbered by whites and so are forced to notice how whites think and feel and act. That is the very reason I posted on this subject in the first place.
2. From school and television blacks and Asians receive the very same white racist messages day after day that whites do. They live in a culture that humanizes whites and dehumanizes themselves.”
These are two basic facts that I think many are overlooking and why I think the study would not reproduce the same results if given to blacks, South Asians, and East Asians (especially not East Asians).
The first point is very important. We live in a society where minorities can not escape whites (but whites can easily choose to not be around minorities) . And everyone knows that the more contact you have with someone, the more you get to know them, and the more you can find a common ground.
The second point can not be stated more. Think about it: on television, what race are most of the characters? White. So if a person has a favorite TV show or character, they are more than likely white. Favorite movie? Probably white. Favorite teachers/professors? White. On the covers of magazines, who is there? Mainly whites. So it’s pretty clear that minorities are essentially forced to relate to whites in a way that whites are not forced to relate to them.
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I used Gabrielle and Paris as my examples randomly, I needed a black and white blonde/ blue eyed celebrities. Now, Paris is not fugly, but I wouldn’t call her a beauty either. Just my female opinion.
@Kai
. Look at the comments, they don’t say, “This data is an interesting contribution, adding contextualized value to a growing body of knowledge”, rather they growl, “I want to see results for people of color! they’re racist too dammit!” Hehe, I love it.
Actually, the point is quite the opposite: you can’t prove whites are racists if you don’t show that non-whites react differently. They didn’t do it.
The main stupidity/racism in this study was the fact that researches assumed “whites” are “all people” and used only them. Like Natasha said, the point of the study was not to measure white racism, but the way people (in general!) react. They take for granted that whites = all people, or people in general. That makes no sense and turns a potentially interesting study into a mess.
That’s why we need non-white people data. If they, indeed, show reactions to all people, only then we could talk about white racism and differences between the ways whites and non whites perceive others.
My guess is similar to Abagond’s. That is, I believe most of the non-whites would react to all people, and some of them would even show a stronger reaction to whites. However, without the actual study, it’s just a wild guess.
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Natasha W
That was eloquently stated. Nailed it… People always overlook the fact that minorities have to be in tune with whiteness in order to get along in the West, whereas whites can easily dissociate from POC.
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How hell, I was going to make a long post on the failures of this study but just read what Mira wrote up above…
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Mira said: “Actually, the point is quite the opposite: you can’t prove whites are racists if you don’t show that non-whites react differently. They didn’t do it.”
See, this is part of what I’m finding entertaining. Folks need to step back for a minute here. This study doesn’t “prove” *anything*. It’s a narrow neuroscientific dataset which may suggest certain narrow things with possibly broader implications, but the conversation skips immediately to “proving racism” or some such grandiose and frankly questionable notion.
I don’t need a study to “prove racism” to me. I have the beatings and scars and memories and everyday experiences and a lifetime of reading and learning which already have that nicely covered. This study is a highly constricted academic look at mirror-neuron reflex, in a field which is in its infancy at best yet clearly socially galvanizing for its potential explanatory power. But I’m not looking to it to “prove” to me that what I’ve experienced is real. So our respective approaches to the value and meaning of the study, and what the researchers owe us and our preconceptions, are a source of disconnect and amusement to me, that’s all I’m saying.
Cheers.
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Natasha,
I hate science, so I run from it often. 🙂
Do you have any guesses as to why they showed people drinking water, as opposed to falling, or getting robbed, etc.? I’m confused on the whole empathy thing because drinking water is not a situation in which you need to be empathic. Social psych studies have demonstrated many Whites’ lack of empathy for Blacks in terms of action (i.e., being less likely to aid a Black person than a White one), but I’m not understanding the brain connections, wrt the drinking water part. A simple explanation would be appreciated (I took my last final yesterday, I’m trying to keep my school stuff to a minimum :-P).
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Kai,
A study needs to have a scientific value to be even considered. Why are we talking about it here, why does this post even exist? Because the study tries to be a scientific study, but fails.
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Mira
Yeah this study is definitely an EPIC FAIL.
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Mira, this may be rough but I’m gonna break it to you: you are not the arbiter of scientific value.
Just out of curiosity, what field of science are you in?
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Too be honest the study is ‘scientific’ within the field of psychology. The reserchers made a hypothesis viz. that prejudicial whites will ’empathise’ with Whites than people of colour by having an similar motor-neuron reaction and tested it accordingly
It is not necessary to compare against another subject groups ie People of Color though this could be done.
I think in Psychology this is called the single subject design
https://www.msu.edu/user/sw/ssd/issd01.htm
The researchers also covered extraneous variables ie left-handness etc…
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Kai,
I’m an archaeologist.
Too be honest the study is ‘scientific’ within the field of psychology. The reserchers made a hypothesis viz. that prejudicial whites will ‘empathise’ with Whites than people of colour by having an similar motor-neuron reaction and tested it accordingly
Then I misunderstood the study. I thought the hypothesis was that people (people in general) empathize more with the people of their own group. Not that whites lack empathy to people of colour. They thought whites are “people in general”. In other words, they assumed that black and Asian people would react the same, because they assumed that “white” equals “people in general”.
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This is not correct, the single subject design within psychology because there are in fact 4 groups. Though we are classifying Whites & People of Color.
Perhaps Jasmin may be able to explain??
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Mira, I see, this helps me because knowing what field someone is in can sometimes (not always!) help clarify where they’re coming from and how they look at things.
You’re right that the study’s language describes generic “people” responding to their “in-group”. But the actual design of the experiment, and thus the resulting data, is obviously about white people. That’s why not only Abagond but most writers I’ve seen are treating it as a study of white people, rather than a comparison between mirror-neuron firings in white people versus people of color, which seems to be what you would rather see.
Additional studies following related paths of inquiry, with people of color as well as white people as subjects, would certainly be interesting. No doubt about that, we’re in agreement there. That doesn’t mean that this small, initial study in this fledgling area of inquiry has “no scientific value”. It’s impossible to determine the “scientific value” of this study at this time. We’ll know more in 10 years when more data has been collected to contextualize its significance and meaning. In the end, you may be right about its insignificance, but we just don’t know yet.
What we do know is that many people are having strong emotional reactions to this study, and that’s something I already find interesting.
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Kai,
But the actual design of the experiment, and thus the resulting data, is obviously about white people.
Of course it is. When I complained about “unscientific methods” I meant on methodology. To me, assuming “general people” = whites is enough to question validity of the study (and to call it unscientific). You can get correct results using wrong methodology, but that’s still bad science.
That’s why not only Abagond but most writers I’ve seen are treating it as a study of white people, rather than a comparison between mirror-neuron firings in white people versus people of color, which seems to be what you would rather see.
I’d like to see that because there’s no control group, so to speak. And you can’t really tell what you’re measuring unless there’s a control group. Even if you want to test only whites, you have to have a control group to see what is general human reaction vs white people reaction. They didn’t even think about it, because to them, “general people” are whites.
As far as I understand their intentions (I might be wrong here), they saw this as a general human reaction (empathizing with your own group only). Which means they expect blacks and Asians to react the same way. But we don’t know that, don’t we? I doubt non-white people would react the same, that’s why I want to see their data.
That doesn’t mean that this small, initial study in this fledgling area of inquiry has “no scientific value”. It’s impossible to determine the “scientific value” of this study at this time.
The data collected is certainly interesting, and I don’t doubt their measurements. I don’t even complain about the small sample (only 30 people, right?) The data is interesting. But I don’t think this study has scientific value because it doesn’t really follow scientific standards in terms of forming a hypothesis.
We’ll know more in 10 years when more data has been collected to contextualize its significance and meaning. In the end, you may be right about its insignificance, but we just don’t know yet.
Well, that’s exactly what I was asking for: more data, and the ability to put the data in a context, because no data speaks for itself.
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Mira said:
Actually, the point is quite the opposite: you can’t prove whites are racists if you don’t show that non-whites react differently. They didn’t do it.
Menelik replied:
exactly! And this is why I argue that white supremacy and so-called white racism need to be understood as very separate concepts.
To begin with white supremacy, like any caste supremacy, is something to be either pursued or maintained. White racism, by contrast, has within it the assumption that a white person behaving, for example, in a violent manner towards POC possesses a superiority complex. This is simply NOT true!
There was nothing in either the racial ideology or actions of the white supremacist KKK, for example, to suggest they felt comfortable in either their white skins or their masculinity. Far from it. By reducing Blacks to a status below humanity they sought to establish themselves as the very models of humanity.
And what fine models they were too: lynching Black men because they felt sexually and racially inferior to them; raping “ugly” Black women because they couldn’t resist them; and denying Blacks human right and by so doing exposing to the world their own inhumanity and bestiality.
And then came Martin Luther King. He unwittingly pulled off the greatest expose’ of the myth of white racism (whose adherents, remember, claim they are superior to African-Americans) in history. So as church-going Black women were beaten by cops and bitten by dogs as they marched peacefully for civil rights, the white elite recoiled in horror. “This brutality makes us superior?” they asked.
Good question.
The answer, of course, is that it didn’t. What it did, however, was to establish the sons and daughters of slaves as the moral conscience of America – a status further reinforced by Barack Obama (MLK’s spiritual heir) who morally transcends the barely disguised racial lynch-mob mentality of those Tea Party fruit bats (the sentimental heirs of the KKK).
Notice how far-right conservatives almost invite the accusation of racism with their inflammatory posters of President Obama? Notice how we take the bait?
Big mistake!
The Tea Party “patriots” are white supremacist insofar as they seek to re-establish in symbolic sense by harassing Barack and his Black family out of the slave-built White House. But to accuse them of possessing a racial superiority complex is so far from the truth. Hence their collective determination to invite the white racist label.
Once they are accused of such they feel so much better about themselves as the Black accusers are assuming such people perceive them as racially inferior and unfit to run the highest office in the land.
Not so!
It is possible to both possess a racial inferiority complex and to be a white supremacist at the same time. These guys and gals have realised this possibility. Let’s not be fooled by their self-defensive race baiting.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Mira, I still believe you’re slightly misunderstanding the experiment. The control group is the white people watching other white people drink a glass of water. What’s being measured is the difference in the mirror-neuron firings in white people when they watch people of color drink a glass of water, versus when they watch white people drink a glass of water. That’s what this finding is about, and that’s all. I don’t know where you grew up and live, but you might be more sympathetic to our interest in this study if you grew up as a person of color in racist US society and had dealt with white people’s non-responsiveness all your life.
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I’d have to see the test ran on other races as well in order to draw any meaningful conclusions about what this means.
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Kai said:
I don’t know where you, Mira, grew up and live, but you might be more sympathetic to our interest in this study if you grew up as a person of color in racist US society and had dealt with white people’s non-responsiveness all your life.
Menelik replied:
and no doubt, Kai, you feel more empathy, sympathy, and sense of kinship with people of colour (starting with your immediate family) than you do with European-Americans. Does all this make you anti-white?
Give Mira a break; he raised some pretty good points.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Mira said:
As far as I understand their intentions (I might be wrong here), they saw this as a general human reaction (empathizing with your own group only). Which means they expect blacks and Asians to react the same way. But we don’t know that, don’t we?
I doubt non-white people would react the same, that’s why I want to see their data.
Menelik replies:
I’ve no doubt Kai would given what she suggests above since as a person of colour she’s “more sympathetic” towards POC than to European-Americans.
She will doubtless correct me if I’m wrong.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik said: “and no doubt, Kai, you feel more empathy, sympathy, and sense of kinship with people of colour (starting with your immediate family) than you do with European-Americans. Does all this make you anti-white?”
This is a non-sequitur.
tulio said: “I’d have to see the test ran on other races as well in order to draw any meaningful conclusions about what this means.”
This is the refrain I keep seeing. I would guess that such data is forthcoming. Science, alas, moves rather slowly.
Abagond has posted about the clark doll experiment on this blog. It suggests that people of color are socialized as children to actually identify *more* with white people than with other people of color. Racial perceptions are not symmetrical, they’re shaped by white supremacism.
I suspect that if we were to perform the mirror-neuron experiment with people of color as subjects, some — possibly many — would actually demonstrate stronger mirror-neuron-empathy toward white people than toward other people of color.
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@Kai
Mira, I still believe you’re slightly misunderstanding the experiment.
Could be. Once again: what was this experiment all about? Not what you or I think, what the researches stated as their goal? What was the hypothesis? What was the point of it?
The control group is the white people watching other white people drink a glass of water.
I thought watching people of the same race vs people of different race drinking water was the integral part of the experiment. What they didn’t show is different group’s reaction (control group’s reaction).
I don’t know where you grew up and live, but you might be more sympathetic to our interest in this study if you grew up as a person of color in racist US society and had dealt with white people’s non-responsiveness all your life.
I grew up and live in Serbia. No, wait… I grew up in Yugoslavia and I live in Serbia.
I don’t understand where you get the idea I’m not sympathetic to your (you being people of colour, I assume) interest in the study, or that I personally don’t have any interest in the study. I didn’t grow up in racist US society, but I did grow up in a society that had to deal with American non-responsiveness, and that’s why I’m deeply interested in this sort of issues.
@Menelik Charles
Give Mira a break; he raised some pretty good points.
Mira is a she 🙂
I’ve no doubt Kai would given what she suggests above since as a person of colour she’s “more sympathetic” towards POC than to European-Americans.
Not necessarily. As far as I understand, all you need to trigger a reaction is to see person on the screen as fully human, so you could picture yourself in that person’s place, to imagine it (drinking water) is happening to you.
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Menelik aid:
I’ve no doubt Kai would given what she suggests above since as a person of colour she’s “more sympathetic” towards POC than to European-Americans.
She will doubtless correct me if I’m wrong.
Kai replied:
I suspect that if we were to perform the mirror-neuron experiment with people of color… some – possibly many, would actually demonstrate stronger mirror-neuron-empathy toward white people than toward other people of color.
Menelik replied:
this does NOT answer my question, Kai. Is it the case that you feel more empathy, sympathy and kinship towards POC than you do towards European-Americans?
You answer need only be brief.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik, you are not half as clever as you think and I have exactly zero obligation to respond to your silliness, even if it does keep me chuckling, for which I thank you. Tough times in London, huh?
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This sort of experiments give me interesting ideas. How would females react to video of a man being punched in the testicles? Would they react only to males in their racial group? And could males of the same race be even considered “their group”, since women don’t know what is like to be punched in the testicles and don’t have mirror neurons for that?
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[…] The hearts of white people: the science by Abagond […]
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Kai said:
Menelik, you are not half as clever as you think, and I have exactly zero obligation to respond to your silliness, even if it does keep me chuckling.
Menelik said:
perhaps a little too clever for my own good, sweetie! But you, madam, aren’t half as honest as you would have yourself, and others believe!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik, hehe, I’m a heterosexual man, so you’re flirting will get you nowhere.
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J,
Sorry, what are you asking me to explain?
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I promise to feel more empathy towards each and every person I see drinking a glass of water for the rest of my life, so help me God.
They really should have included more actions than drinking a glass of water… who feels “empathy” for someone drinking a glass of water? I feel empathy for someone who slams their finger in a door or gets a paper cut or bites their tongue but water drinking – little or no empathy for anyone of any color.. sorry! It’s just not an empathy evoking event. They were lucky to get any reaction at all.
More studies would be great.
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I don’t think “empathy” is the right term. Not “empathy” in a way of understanding/feeling/sympathizing with someone else’s pain. More of general ability to picture yourself as a person you see on screen (drinking water, for example). I mean, we are all members of the same species- seeing a human drinking water should trigger our mirror neurons. But for white people, that doesn’t happen if a person drinking water is not white. That means they don’t even see non-whites as humans?
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Mira said:
don’t think “empathy” is the right term.
Menelik suggests:
try affinity, then.
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Mira and Menelik – The study does state: “Our research suggests that people do not mentally simulate the actions of outgroups. That is, those neural networks underlying the simulation of actions and intentions—most likely part of the ‘‘mirror- neuron-system”—are less responsive to outgroup members than to ingroup members.
We take this as evidence that people
experience less vicarious action and their associated somatic and autonomic states when confronted with outgroups than with ingroups.
Especially, prejudiced people fail to mentally simulate outgroup members’ actions and this failure to simulate is particularly pronounced for disliked outgroups. Here is evidence that people— but especially people high in prejudice—do not intuitively grasp
outgroup members intentions and actions.”
The part I find key is that prejudiced white Canadian college students fail to mentally “simulate” outgroup members actions and prejudiced white Canadian college students don’t intuitively grasp outgroup (black and asian Canadians) members intentions and actions. That says more to me than whites have no more reaction to blacks or asians than they do to a blank screen. Such gross overgeneralizations don’t follow the study.
What prejudiced whites college students in Canada seem to lack is the ability to relate to people of other colors on a level where some basic human empathy and humanity would be found.
Do I think white American college students would be assessed better than Canadians? No. I think most white American college kids would fare the same.
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I found the abstract of the study online, and it’s not really helpful for answering any of these questions. Per the abstract, their hypothesis was that neural motor networks would fire for people in the in-group (as defined by a racial category), but not the out-group. This hypothesis was supported by their results, and they found that racism moderated the link, so someone high on their racism scale would have a greater disparity in firing than someone lower. I am going to see if I can find it on my school library’s website somewhere.
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Hey folks, they just have recent studies that shows that Neandrathals were mating with homo sapians in the middle east , the people that had left Africa and ended up in Europe. The future white people…This wasnt the homo sapiens that stayed in Africa
Dont you think that explains everything?
White people have some genes of the the Neandrathal man in them, no wonder they are idiots
everthing makes sence after that……
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.shut up Thad , Im only joking
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Well that was fast… 🙂
I don’t have access to the study through any of my resources, but it appears that Gutsell and Inzlicht’s area of specialty is looking at neuroscientific correlates of social psych’s observed behaviors. So basically they want to connect brain activity to things we’ve already demonstrated about racism and prejudice, like stereotype threat, in-group/out-group distinctions, etc. I think that explains (and validates) the comments of some that the results of this study don’t show anything we didn’t already know wrt what Whites think of non-Whites. But once you start talking about brain activity, you get into nature-vs-nurture and the extent to which brain activity dictates behavior–there’s a fear that tossing everything back to the brain excuses racist behavior as unconscious, something you can’t control. So social researchers will fight this kind of stuff to the death. 😛
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Jasmin – “But once you start talking about brain activity, you get into nature-vs-nurture”
That’s similar to the conclusion I came to last night based on the test results – “On the positive side, even if we do not intuitively grasp outgroup members’ inner states; there may be ways to compensate. Cognitive perspective taking, for example, can increase interpersonal sensitivity and understanding, thereby reducing prejudice”
Meanwhile if you watched the ABC show tonight “What would you do?” I think it’s pretty clear based on the “stealing the bike scenario” white people identify with whites even when it comes to “freeing” a bike from a post when it’s unclear who owns the bike… and freeing the bike for a black kid only brought threats from the whites and 911 calls. Empathy for the same color and contempt for the other is pretty clear. I’m so sorry the white people are such a**holes… 😦
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Blurred stripes, how did you know I watched that? 🙂
Honestly, the point of that show seems to be to make people look bad (usually White people). Although the host comes out and talks to the people who do something, he doesn’t talk to the 80-something who don’t (like in the “shopping while Black” scenario). If people are embarrassed enough to have their faces blurred, they must realize their actions are “wrong” in the court of public opinion, but do they actually have any desire to do better? I doubt it.
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Jasmin – I doubt it, too.. but I hope they think next time they are confronted with a similar situation. One never knows who is watching and what’s more – how can they look themselves in the mirror after acting in such ways?
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People see what there used to. If whites see people or color a certain way, it means that they may see less of them. when little kids who havent seen a black person see me., they stare. –Changing the subject: someone said that there is LESS RACISM in a military town that society in general, I believe, its because they re more CONSERVATIVE. Conservatives are usually people who do NOT believe in evolution because they see that ‘real science’ disproves it and people who believe in evolution, I believe, have subconcious racist feelings. Darwin wrote a book SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST and in it , he said black men cannot achieve no higher than a white man of 11 years old. I WISH THERE WOULD BE MORE BLACK BLOGGERS TALKING ABOUT EVOLUTION AND WHERE ITS GOT US but, i only see white conservative scientists debating it. WE SHOULD BE THERE FIRST. black people dont come from monkeys. period. or any one. Monkeys are a creation like raccoons giraffes etc.
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boomer babe said:
Darwin wrote a book SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
Menelik asks:
did he; when was it published?
boomer babe said:
in the book he said black men cannot achieve no higher than a white man of 11 years old.
Menelik asks:
are you sure about all this?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Boomer babe
“Conservatives are usually people who do NOT believe in evolution because they see that ‘real science’ disproves it”
Oh please please give me the link to this “real science” you speak of. I would love to read it.
Also; I’m a conservative that accepts evolution, just like gravity, or Germ theory. There is not any belief involved, just observation.
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White people are Neandrathals….It explains everything
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Jasmin
“Do you have any guesses as to why they showed people drinking water, as opposed to falling, or getting robbed, etc.?”
They were testing perception-action coupling which shows that when a person is “in-tune” with another person, they emulate their actions, movements, expressions, etc. Falling or getting robbed does not fall under this particular mechanism. Throwing a ball or frowning, for example, does.
“I’m confused on the whole empathy thing because drinking water is not a situation in which you need to be empathic.”
Empathy is the correct word here, but not the way it is used in layman’s terms. Empathy as it is used here means the vicarious experiencing of another’s inner state. This does not have to be pain or sadness, in fact it can be neutral. They extend this to experiences of pain or sadness because research has shown that the ability to empathize is the root of understanding and sensitivity.
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Mira,
“A study needs to have a scientific value to be even considered. Why are we talking about it here, why does this post even exist? Because the study tries to be a scientific study, but fails.”
When I complained about “unscientific methods” I meant on methodology. To me, assuming “general people” = whites is enough to question validity of the study (and to call it unscientific).”
…Not really. This study is valid for what it was attempting to explain. Their conclusion was sloppy (that this applies to all people), but that is not enough to call this study a fail. Hardly. Seriously, most If it were, it wouldn’t have been published in one of the field’s top journals. Journals, especially well-known ones, review papers thoroughly before publishing them, because if the paper proves to be bunk, it will reflect poorly on them.
————————
As far as the other reactions to this study, I honestly believe there is nothing that anyone could do to convince people that white apathy to other groups of people is a reality. There have been plenty of [social] studies that have shown similar results yet people still vehemently deny it.
I wanted to simulate this experiment with other groups of people, but when I really digested these responses, I don’t think I will. It’s clear that people just don’t want to believe what is right before their eyes. I could see it now “Well, the response of blacks to whites wasn’t that high, how do you know it wasn’t a fluke?!” I hate wasting time.
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Wanted to add:
*Seriously, most studies (especially health) have whites as their subjects, so are we going to call these studies a fail too?
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A central and strong point has been made by Ó Dochartaigh, Crissa, Jasmin, Mira, blurredstripes, tulio, and others about the futility of projecting conclusions about the study that were not made by the researchers. I think it would be very interesting to see the study replicated in other countries/cultures with the majority race in each location serving as the ingroup. Just a couple of random picks…perhaps Japan, China, Ghana, Bali, Argentina, U.S. Perhaps then it would be possible to make legitimate comparative statements about levels of empathy (as defined by the study anyway) between different ingroups/cultures/races. It would also be very interesting to see the work done along religious lines, I think, too. Sounds to me like a career for a handful of researchers!
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Natasha W – I don’t disagree that the way whites respond to blacks is different than the way whites respond to whites – in real world applications.
The study and ensuing conversation here has got me thinking about my own responses and perceptions on a deeper level -and what they mean to my life and encounters. I don’t disagree with you on a lot of points – but the part I fail to connect overall is that white people are “cold-hearted” and see blacks as “less important” based on mirror-nueron responses while watching someone drink water.
Also – perhaps the other studies are a “fail” because they assume universal responses based on white people, yes. There should probably be more diverse studies to prove or disprove human nature.
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Non-African’s have Neanderthal DNA:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/neanderthals-dna-humans-genome
Neanderthal’s had bigger brains than Modern Humans, and were as culturally advanced. I expect Modern Humans picked up a few tricks from the Neanderthals.
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Natasha,
I think people have a tendency to believe social research over neuroscience, because the emphasis is on observed behaviors, but even that doesn’t work very well. Studies keep coming out demonstrating a correlation between race (names, etc.) and the likelihood of getting a job opportunity, yet White people (many of them employers are still sitting around saying, “Whaa?” No matter how high the correlation, people still don’t connect what White people do in research studies to “real, live” White folks.
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Neanderthal’s had bigger brains than Modern Humans, and were as culturally advanced.
Sorry, no they weren’t. Humans quickly developed culture about 50,000 years ago. It would be hard to label what humans and neanderthals had before then as “culture”.
Hey folks, they just have recent studies that shows that Neandrathals were mating with homo sapians in the middle east , the people that had left Africa and ended up in Europe. The future white people…This wasnt the homo sapiens that stayed in Africa.
Correction:: the future everyone-but-ancient Africans, including Asians and Americans and – by now – a huge portion of Africans, too.
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@Natasha
Empathy is the correct word here, but not the way it is used in layman’s terms.
Thanks for explaining that. You’re right: it is empathy 🙂
…Not really. This study is valid for what it was attempting to explain. Their conclusion was sloppy (that this applies to all people), but that is not enough to call this study a fail. Hardly. Seriously, most If it were, it wouldn’t have been published in one of the field’s top journals. Journals, especially well-known ones, review papers thoroughly before publishing them, because if the paper proves to be bunk, it will reflect poorly on them.
I don’t know… I called it “failed” because it looked to me they didn’t do a good hypothesis forming (or whatever it’s correct word). What I believe it happened, is that they got correct results using the wrong interpretation and methodology. I do think this research had a potential, and I do believe they discovered something important; however, their interpretations and hypothesis are, as you said, “sloppy”. I don’t know, to me, it’s enough to call it a bad science.
Take a stupid example: say you’re an alien who wants to do a research on humans. You pick 30 test subjects, all females, and observe them for one month. You notice that all of them had menstrual bleeding. So far, so good. However, in your interpretation, you don’t say: “human females have menstruation”, you say: “humans in general have it”… Without even testing any males. So, while your data is good on itself, and while it does say something about human females, it does not prove anything about the whole humanity (which was your goal). It’s still a valuable research in a way, but your interpretations are bad and you must be criticized for it (for not testing the males).
As far as the other reactions to this study, I honestly believe there is nothing that anyone could do to convince people that white apathy to other groups of people is a reality. There have been plenty of [social] studies that have shown similar results yet people still vehemently deny it.
Well, people do want reality to match their view of the world. That should not be of any concern to you. However, the more papers on white apathy, the better. This is a subject that should be talked about and not forgotten. White people need to hear it every day, no matter how annoying or unreal that may sound to them. Take the IAT for example. Many people who claimed they didn’t have any preference for whites were surprised by their results. I’m not saying that would change anybody, but these things should be talked about and we all need more experiments and studies or else people would think it’s just a “fantasy” created by “angry POC” who want to play the race card just for the sake of it.
I mean, if you are unable to bet in-tune with another human being- which is supposed to be a natural, instinctive reaction- then, what are we talking about??? Nurture wins nature once again, and yes, I believe people must hear this, because there’s one thing nobody talks about when it comes to this study: IN-GROUP behavior should be instinctive and natural. White people obviously lost that instinct, since they are unable to see non-whites as their own group. And yes, animals have groups too, but as far as I understand, this mirror neuron thing works on a species level (correct me if I’m wrong). So why doesn’t it work for whites???
@Thad
Sorry, no they weren’t. Humans quickly developed culture about 50,000 years ago. It would be hard to label what humans and neanderthals had before then as “culture”.
But they (Neanderthals) DID have larger brains, and yes, it IS possible to call what pre-Homo Sapiens Sapiens had culture. There are various paleolithic industries that were not made by HSS. Hey, HSS only appeared in the upper paleolithic.
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With regard to:
“J,
Sorry, what are you asking me to explain?”
I was asking you to explain the sampling procedure ie what groups are being compared and contrasted, as a reason to explain why no ‘test’ was carried out on ‘People of Colour’ – that would have to be another and different study altogether.
With regard to neuron activity, I would add that in my opinion, it does not necessarily bring in the issue of nature/nuture. Just as a lie detector can pick up reflex actions. This is another sort of ‘barometer’ if you follow.
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J,
Gotcha.
The comparison and contrast was “reaction to Whites” vs. “reaction to non-Whites”. Given their conclusion, they should’ve used people in general (since their conclusion just talks about “people”), but they didn’t necessarily have to use non-Whites if their goal was to talk about White people and prejudice. I am surprised that the publication committee didn’t call them out on generalizing, but they may have cited supporting evidence that was convincing enough to let it slide.
The idea of nature and nurture comes into play when you talk about effect size, which kind of gets into a study’s applicability in the real world. It’s hard to argue for the “significance” of biological data if you advocate for social changes to adapt the behavior (i.e., no one’s advocating for shock therapy to minimize prejudice). Someone might correlate the social changes to changes in the brain, but the visible actions are going to make a difference whether there’s a neural connection or not. So then tt comes down to whether you can convert forced changes into automatic ones, and whether there’s a benefit in doing so.
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Thanks,
Just one point:
With regard to:
“but they didn’t necessarily have to use non-Whites if their goal was to talk about White people and prejudice”
Agreed, i would also like to add and I think Kai made refernce to it earlier, but I would slightly divert from him and say the control group is POC, he suggests its ‘Whites’.
To be honest I am not sure if there is a ‘control group’ per se since both groups are given and react to all the same variables in the experiment- be that as it may….
I think the researchers as you said could have completed a study without using POC, but just like many here have said but in a different context, sceptics would then ask, ‘where is the same test/variables on POC in the experiment??’
The researchers covered this by having a ‘control group’ which could be compared to the Whites.
This would be in keeping with the ‘scientific experimental model’ of psychology
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blurredstripes,
‘…the part I fail to connect overall is that white people are “cold-hearted” and see blacks as “less important” based on mirror-nueron responses while watching someone drink water.’
The line of reasoning in regards to cold-heartedness: Whites do not empathize with non-whites > Empathy is the basis of sensitivity > Whites are insensitive to non-whites, i.e. they are cold-hearted (when it comes to non-whites).
“Less important” was a possible alternative to the cold-hearted theory.
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But they (Neanderthals) DID have larger brains, and yes, it IS possible to call what pre-Homo Sapiens Sapiens had culture. There are various paleolithic industries that were not made by HSS. Hey, HSS only appeared in the upper paleolithic.
I guess. Then again, you can call what certain animals have “culture” too. The mark of culture isn’t industry, but sophisticated communication via abstract symbols. We are pretty damned sure that neither HSS nor the Neanderthals had that until the upper paleolithic. By that time, however, HSS may have been around for 50-100,000 years already.
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Yes, certain animals have culture too. It is not a secret.
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I’d like to see that test carried out on a hot summer day with someone really thirsty watching someone else drinking a nice glass of chilled water, no matter what ethnicity, gender etc … 😀
Seriously though I reckon the only conclusion this test delivers is that a small number of white Canadians didn’t react to someone from a different ethnicity drinking a glass of water. That’s it. To really get anything halfway significant out of it you’d have to do this test with a wide variety of nationals and ethnicities.
And yet again, what about mixed people?
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It shall be noted that a great number of derailling techniques was used in this comment thread. Techniques such as ‘i would like to see blacks also tested … and mixed and even neanderthals got involved at some point..and hot summer too , wtf !
Therefore, we shall conclude that white apathy does only exist as a figment of the imagination of some whiny individuals who have faced oppression at one point in their life and couldn’t get over it.
Annoying case closed.
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Well, this study claims to have been carried out with scientific methodology. Science by its very nature is permanently challenged, reviewed, adjusted etc. Relatively few scientific theories are ever considered definite. Every claim can be challenged. Scientists, at least the serious ones, are not only aware of it but embrace the challenge. That’s the driving force of science. Research and observation, repeatability, peer-review and confirmation or… challenge.
If this study can be repeated anywhere else in the world, ie. with white British, French, Germans, South Africans etc. with the same result one might conclude that white people as a whole are in fact indifferent to people of other ethnicities.
If you include all other ethnic groups and come to very similar results it might prove that this behaviour is merely intrinsically human.
IMHO the truth will, as always, lie somewhere in between. The results will be all over the place and not conclusive at all, given a large enough sample.
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Well, i’m just surprised at how easily mirror neurons activity is accepted as a good thing.
I think it shows that while white people do not see each others as potential lethal threat, they do see each others as competitors for ressources in a competitive environment.
it’s like “Hey , this guy is drinking water, obviously he is from my clan since we share the same skin… so this is the water of our community, huh… in fact he is drinking my water. Has he earned the right to deserve such good water ? Isn’t he drinking too much ? Let me put myself in his shoes so i can tell if he’s having an unfair advantage.”
If it’s true, just imagine being white and being double-checked or triple-checked, whenever you do something as mundane as drinking a glass of water. If it’s true then it might be an hint whether or not they do share a hive mind which might be perceived as cold-heartedness from outsiders.
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I thought that seeing someone as a member of “your own clan” meant there was no competition.
But more than anything, I thought mirror neuron reaction was seeing someone as a member of your own species. (which is why these results are the most striking- whites obviously don’t see blacks as fully human).
That’s why I asked whether they tested people’s reaction on animals (such as apes or whoever is able to hold a glass of water). There should not be a reaction to an animal.
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I am not fully sure I understand the link from Re-structure and what they are suggesting, with regard to (scientific) experimental methods in Psychology??
http://restructure.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/whites-are-different-from-people/
What I found interesting is the following comment:
“the same implicit race bias studies on blacks show that blacks prefer whites and blacks equally”
which answers the question which many people were asking here.
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I still think it would be interesting to make this test in places like Jamaica, Cameroon or Brazil with the locals there.
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“I thought that seeing someone as a member of “your own clan” meant there was no competition.”
Maybe i choose the wrong words.
All i know is that there is definitely competition in a clan… since , avoiding a competitional situation between members is one of the main occupation.
What i wanted to point out half-jokingly is that, maybe, the scientists have discovered a social monitoring function rather than an empathic function.
Instead of repeating the experiment with some PoC, they should try to experiment again with situation where the subject is competing with a PoC.
Per instance, a beautiful blonde with magnificent bosom and child bearing hips, in the arms of a random PoC that is drinking water.
I’ll be damned if the mirror neuron does not fire up.
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No matter what, the results would have to be replicated a bunch of times before any scientists would actually believe in this link between racism, mirror neurons, and in-group/out-group. In social science you can never actually “prove” anything (in fact, if you read “we proved” in a paper that’s a clue it’s not very good); just one counterexample would make your hypothesis fall apart. So you can establish correlations, etc., but there’s never any real “proof” that X causes/is associated with Y.
J,
I read the link. What’s your question?
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Beautiful post…and I missed it!!!
Ohhhhh…I’m linking the hell out of this one!!!!
Damn, Abagond…way to represent with the topic choices!
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Way to go Kai, Abagond, and Natasha.
Kai…you earned yourself an “Ankhesenology ” moment. Something tells me to expect many more from you.
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“To the researchers out there. To researchers Gutsell and Inzlicht, specifically – think through the variables. Really think them through. If you already did, then make that clear – don’t allow any misinterpretation to get spun onto your work, especially work so important (and dangerous) as that regarding forms of oppression.”
From:
http://choptensils.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/dangerous-science-round-i/
I find this whole thing strange. I mean, ’cause I know my neurons start firing when I see white people. They’re just not in the area involved with “empathy”.
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With regard to:
“J,
I read the link. What’s your question??”
Cheers, I did not have a question, but was saying that there have been experiments conducted with Blacks.
This is what many were asking here previously.
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This has happened to me a few times too, where a white person acted as if I wasn’t even there. Now granted this has not happened often to me but sometimes for most white people that I have come in contact with have been pretty responsive to me.
I know this was crazy of me but years ago I decided to do my own little study. So I purposely was unresponsive to particular white persons in (school/work environments), and I will tell you that without a shadow of a doubt they couldn’t take it. Either they went out of their way to get my attention, got angry and say that I treat them like shit (I don’t see how when I just didn’t talk to them), or became overly friendly trying to chat me up. I even had one write me a letter explaining how hurt she was, etc. As of me being unresponsive, I didn’t ignore them if they spoke to me, I just didn’t go out of my way to make small talk with them. Their strong reactions to my unresponsiveness actually surprised me. I didn’t think they would notice or care.
This led me to ponder: Is white people’s unresponsiveness to black people intentional? Are they doing it purposely to make people of color feel less than? Were their strong reactions moreso because I am black and made them feel “less than” when it’s suppose to be the “other way around”?
I’m sure on one thing though: They can’t take what they dish out!
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This was a pilot study. There aren’t any results with participants from other cultures to this date.
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With regard to it being a pilot study, it states within the link??
“Do Black participants show a preference for Black over White on the race attitude IAT?
Answer: Although the majority of White respondents show a preference for White over Black, the responses from Black respondents are more varied. Although some Black participants show liking for White over Black, others show no preference, and yet others show a preference for Black over White.
Data collected from this website consistently reveal approximately even numbers of Black respondents showing a pro-White bias as show a pro-Black bias. Part of this might be understood as Black respondents experiencing the similar negative associations about their group from experience in their cultural environments, and also experiencing competing positive associations about their group based on their own group membership and that of close relations. For more information see Nosek, Banaji, & Greenwald, 2002.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.html#faq19
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I’m wondering how this study would work on interracial families and communities…
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Shan,
I notice that too. White people who I know from class, clubs, etc., seem to forget who I am as soon as we step out of that context. I read a hypothesis somewhere that stated that for Whites, Blacks fade into this monolithic mass once they are out of their specific context, especially since that context might be one in which they are the only Black person, and thereby easy to distinguish.
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Cosign Shan and Jasmin
On more than a few occasions have chatted with a given white person and a week later they dont ever recognize my face, let alone remember my name or where they might know me from…
Because of this I sympathize with the notion that many middle class whites are “fake”. They make small talk and chat with you like you are really getting to know them, but give it a week and the wont recognize you.
I have also noticed that ignoring them gets on their last nerve. Its like the deepest insult to a lot of white Americans. Sometimes it seems like they want you to talk/acknowledge them first but they “reserve the right” not to speak or acknowledge you.
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Some of the aforesaid comments but the last one in particular reminded me the following, which puts it into an academic context.
Yurugu – An African Centred Critique of European behaviour by Marimba Ani
Anthropologists talk about the gap in all cultures between thought and deed, between ideas and actions. The gap to which I am referring, however, is between verbal expression and belief or commitment; between what people say and what they do.
Nowhere other than in European culture do words mean so little as indices of belief. It is this chararcteristic that is of concern here and this characteristic for which the concepts of traditional anthropology are inadequate to explain.
As a cultural trait it has, however, been described by others, particular those who have bene the victims of European cunning.
Below an indigenous American describes European behaviour.
“They would make slaves of us if they could; but as they cannot, they kill us. There is no faith to be placed in their words.
They will say to an Indian, ‘My friend; my brother!’ They will take him by the hand and, at the same moment destroy him…Remember that this day I warned you to beware of such friends as these. I know the Long-Knives. they are not to be trusted.”
It is an inherent characteristic of the culture that it prepares members of the culture to be able to act like friends towards those they regard as enemies; to be able to convince others that they have come to help when they, in fact have come to destroy the others….
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Japanese call it kotodama, the spiritual power hidden in some specific words. I am no erudite but i believe that escaping the bewitching spell casted by “words” on the human mind is an imperative.
If the map is not the land then the word “tree” doesn’t bear leaves.
A lesson learned the hard way that only a fool would willingly forget.
Yurugu says “Nowhere other than in European culture do words mean so little as indices of belief.”[or commitment]
Hinting that without social conditioning or european upbringing, european culture may appear as a faceless civilization for a non-european.
Trust built on friendship or on words whether spoken or written, could not be accounted for.
That while an european individual may appear as a good map or good representation of european culture, he is not the whole of european culture.
The european individual is possessed by european culture and not the other way around.
As if they were possessed by an almost tangible collective unconsciousness made of envy , greed and survival instinct that would prey first on the european individuals themselves, and then on the non-european.
Words and friendship matters not. All that matters are shapes and survival. If tomorrow , the norm is being friendly toward alien beings, then so be it. One must fit in and fake it till one makes it.
That’s why white males reacts so strongly to another white male drinking just a glass of water. This is no empathy, this is a mimetic mechanism, a survival mechanism.
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Shouldn’t the study also have recorded how Black reacted to Whites “drinking water” and doing other “normal things”? I mean, aren’t there Blacks who could care less about Whites as well?
Or show Black men videos of dark-skinned Black women “doing ordinary things” and let’s see the reaction. LOL.
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“That’s why white males reacts so strongly to another white male drinking just a glass of water. This is no empathy, this is a mimetic mechanism, a survival mechanism.”
With regard to this point. You are the first one here to highlight that the drinking of water may not be as ‘trivial’ as thought. Since after all is not water the source of all life – as you have correctly pointed out??
So on a very ‘symbolic’ level the ‘trivial’ act of drinking water then becomes of absolute significance, even if this may or may not have been the deliberate intention of the experimenters.
Also this would shift the study toward the ‘unconscious processes’, if what I am suggesting here has any validity and if I have understood your point correctly.
Hmmm…Very interesting!!
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@Jasmin
I read a hypothesis somewhere that stated that for Whites, Blacks fade into this monolithic mass once they are out of their specific context, especially since that context might be one in which they are the only Black person, and thereby easy to distinguish.
I think it all goes back to “all blacks look the same”, followed, probably, with “they are all the same, more or less”. It goes back to the idea that blacks are not very important.
I always assumed that’s partly because whites don’t see blacks as potential sexual partners/competitors. Whites don’t care about other whites they don’t know, but at least they are able to remember their faces/names (not me though, I’m a desperate case when it comes to remembering faces, but that’s another story).
@Y
Because of this I sympathize with the notion that many middle class whites are “fake”. They make small talk and chat with you like you are really getting to know them, but give it a week and the wont recognize you.
I agree. Small talk skills say nothing about them as people. Many of them are fake. End of story. You’re not making this up, it’s real. (Now, I’m not saying every polite person you chat with is fake, but making small talks says nothing about what kind of people they really are nor what they think of you).
I have also noticed that ignoring them gets on their last nerve.
Well, people in general don’t like to be ignored. The problem is, to some people, that is everyday reality. To others, that is a non-existent problem they don’t have to face on every-single-place they go. That’s something whites don’t even consider, don’t even think about what is like- until it happens to them (to be ignored by non-whites). Also, they tend to feel uncomfortable if they happen to be the only white person in a room, but they don’t even think what is like for non-whites to be in the same situation all the time.
Maybe Abagond should do a post on this (this “ignore them” experiment).
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LOL @ Patricia Kayden.
Would be interesting to watch huh? 😉
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Oh what nonsense. Maybe every person SUBCONSCIOUSLY just relates to people who look more like them. Obviously since it’s an everyday activity like drinking water and no actual reaction or decision took place rather than brain waves and heart monitoring. Something we couldn’t even notice without technology.
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Oh what nonsense. Maybe every person SUBCONSCIOUSLY just relates to people who look more like them.
In that case, please explain how a blonde, blue eyed person looks “more like” a dark haired, dark eyed person than a black person.
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The brain is a single organ which monopolize one fifth of the energy available in the whole organism. That’s insane
Having your brain lit like a xmas tree has an energy cost.
Let’s assume that the brain has to discriminate what is relevant or not, in order to save its resources.
Let’s also assume that the more specialised , a neuronal group is, the less energy is consumed.
And finally , let’s assume that the higher , the frequency of exposure to a specific stimulus a neuronal group is, the higher the chance that it might become specialised.
What may justify the brain to burn its precious glucose without the conscious approval of the individual. It could probably be made into a priority list.
A threat/A possible ally/identification needed A.S.A.P. alert!!!, is probaly on top of the priority list.
An identified direct threat at the middle and..
Identified A rock/a something what’s-ma’call-it at the bottom
The lack of reaction to blacks mean : oh something’s black and has human shape –> neuronal circuitry activation not required –> proceed with standard behaviour 4.56b –> threat level: orange –> next
The dull reaction for asian : oh it’s somewhat white with human shape –> request facial recognition software target: eyes –> activate neuronal circuitry 4 and 6 –> wait for result –> oh duh , it’s an asian.. proceed with standard procedure 4.56b –> threat level orange –> next
the explosive reaction for white : oh it’s somewhat white with human shape –> request facial recognition software target: eyes and hair –> alert!!! white detected threat level red –> request activation of neuronal circuitry 4,5,2, 39, 16, 14, 15, 27, 39, redirect result from recognition software toward memory bank and watch for matches, determine hunger level , search for cannibalism sign, search for subtil sign of phenotype group and determine if alliance is possible, , extrapolate muscular mass from corporeal mass, extrapolate level of enmity from recognition software result : target eyes, determine ingroup rank from level of health .. and so and so..
And each time the result turns out green or ok , a little dose of dopamine is released .. so it could be pretty addictive … until the level of euphoria is reached.
Let’s not forget that for a white guy, the biggest threat for the last twenty thousand years has been the caveman , next door, and still is.
XD
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Aiyana Jones. more proof was never needed.
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This is a very interesting study. I suppose cold hardheartedness may play a role in some cases but more often than not, I think it has more to do with them regarding black people as less than themselves/less important ..or it could just be a combination of both being directly or indirectly linked.
It’s not too far of a stretch considering black people were considered (and I’m sure still considered in the minds of many white folk) as less than human.
For some..I suppose it’s like walking outside to your car on grass, you know it’s there but..who cares? It’s JUST grass.
For argument’s sake though, I do think that if the study was of 20 black men, with a similar set up, there would be more brain activity with black people than with white; I think any group of people who find people more similar to themselves will be more interested in those people in terms of brain activity because it’s easier to envision yourself AS that person, but I don’t think it would be close to zero with white people for several reasons but for a one in particular: racial inequality.
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Hi Abagond,
how do you think these results fit with the following study…….?
Race and Empathy Matter on Neural Level
In a rare neuroscience look at racial minorities, the study shows that African-Americans showed greater empathy for African-Americans facing adversity — in this case for victims of Hurricane Katrina — than Caucasians demonstrated for Caucasian-Americans in pain
Initially, the scientists thought that both African-Americans and Caucasian-Americans would either show no pattern of in-group bias or both show some sort of preference.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100426182002.htm
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A new study out of Italy indicates that this may not be just an issue of white racism. Black Italians appear to empathize better with those who resemble them:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/27/race.empathy/index.html?hpt=C2
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I just became aware of the Italian study also. It suggests that in-group empathy is universal, in other words not unique to the “white devils.”
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“I just became aware of the Italian study also. It suggests that in-group empathy is universal, in other words not unique to the ‘white devils.'”
Hopefully it’s not innate or else these racism/colorism issues may never be solved.
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Abagond: “Since racism is not symmetrical it is dangerous to assume blacks and Asians would react the same way.”
‘Of course it is’, as everything you say about us “white devils” would then be verified as a lie – as it now is with the Italian study on black Italians as well.
Are you so naive that you somehow think that whites are the only ones able to be racist?
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Johnny:
I have said that blacks are racist too:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/08/all-blacks-are-racist/
Nor do I think of whites as “devils”:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/the-hearts-of-white-people/
More on the asymmetry of racism:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/the-asymmetry-of-racism/
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We will probably disagree on a lot of the issues and at what level they really inflict damage:
There are many blacks that simply hate white people and hearing some ideas from them makes it clear that their ideology hardly differs from that of the average white racist.
Your wife’s comments would have brought on quite a crisis in my house.
The assymetry of racism falls within problematic parameters; I spoke, about a year ago, with a white British man who was married to a Nigerian woman and according to his experiences it wasn’t necessarily always easy to be a white person in Nigeria. Even if you were a bit wealthier people there seemed to have a certain perception of you and it wasn’t always a good one – and obviously this was clearly a race issue and he did also experience, what you call, the assymetry of racism as one person against many.
This last issue is of course based on one single discussion, but as I don’t think that there really are any big differences in the way we humans think and feel, I wouldn’t be so sure of that the average Nigerian, or black person, is any worse or better than the average white person when it comes to hating other people based on the way they look.
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OK, Johnny, fair go: let’s take the standard American social-sciences definition of racism as “prejudice plus power” and presume that the Nigerians do have a certain degree of power in their country.
How much is that compared to the power of, say, the U.S. and Europe where white supremacy was enshrined for centuries and is still very much alive today?
Seems to me that your Nigerian example just reinforces the assymetry thesis.
You, for example, would find it a very unusual circumstance which would place you in Nigeria, as would most white people. By contrast, most people posting here LIVE or work or travel often to the U.S. and Europe which are, any way you want to cut it, still at the center of the world’s economic and political system.
So until China manages to take that lead, I think we can safely say that racism is indeed assymetrical: you and I don’t have to deal with it unless we want to. Abagond does.
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@ Thad
You said, “racism is indeed assymetrical: you and I don’t have to deal with it unless we want to. Abagond does.
Are you sure you want to say “you” don’t deal with Racism unless you choose to? In Brazil = ok? Abagond admits Blacks can also be racist. Perhaps I’ve missed something here. (???) ^o)
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Johnny,
“The assymetry of racism falls within problematic parameters; I spoke, about a year ago, with a white British man who was married to a Nigerian woman and according to his experiences it wasn’t necessarily always easy to be a white person in Nigeria. Even if you were a bit wealthier people there seemed to have a certain perception of you and it wasn’t always a good one – and obviously this was clearly a race issue and he did also experience, what you call, the assymetry of racism as one person against many.”
This isn’t a very good comparison. What the Nigerians in this case were exhibiting is partisanship/ethnocentrism. I’ve been all over West Africa and one thing that is for certain is that ethnic group and culture is way more important than the catch-all term “race.” Most ethnic groups are openly discouraged from intermarrying and mingling, despite the fact that they would all be considerd black. To use your example of Nigerians, to them, marrying a foreigner (especially an American), white or black, is utter blasphemy — I’ve heard many black Americans that received a similarly cold treatment. Actually, worse. But in the UK, British and Nigerians marry at much higher rates: it is culture that is the issue here, not race.
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CoL, i deal with nativism and bigotry and prejudice all the time. Those things are somewhat different from racism in my book.
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@ Thad –
Understood. Personally, when someone looks at me and “hates” me because I’m a “White guy”, I tend to find that racist.
Granted, most of the time it is probably some form of nativism, bigotry and/or prejudice.
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[…] The hearts of white people: the science […]
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Interesting study link BeautifulStruggle2010, it makes me question something… Perhaps whites are hardwired for less empathy in the first place? I have noticed there is very little empathy in some of my coworkers for ANY negative matter period. Generation after generation in a position of superiority is bound to do this. I also wonder if the results of the test would skew differently for very poor white people vs largely middle class college kids?
I dont dispute the glass of water test, but what i wonder, what the reaction would be to photos of black people drinking water or saving a child from aburing building…and white people being beaten by police or carrying will work for food signs? I suspect that a great majority of white people could look at a photo of a white person being beaten by police and look at it with scorn for the victim. Police in my town have shot two unarmed white men in the past year, and i thought… maybe NOW people will question this… but many white people i know could have cared less. The same is true for the mining accidents of the past two years in coal country, and recent tornados in my area. White people seem to have only minimal ability to empathize during times of crisis, however i have noticed a GREAT ability for white people to ’empathize’ with success or positive events. And a glass of refreshing cool water, could very well be deemed a positive. We all think we are just one more day at the plant away from becoming Warren Buffett. And the average white person reacts to stories of 99ers with the old chestnut ‘take away thier unemployment so they HAVE to get a job’ instead of the more realistic question of why are there fewer jobs than workers? that could be me! There seems to be almost no ability, to put themselves in others shoes. And i have commonly heard white people explain away the economic crash with ‘fanny and freddie gave away all kinds of bad mortgages to poor people’ as if EVERY SINGLE mortgage to poor people put together would make up for the damage done. Even my friends in formerly thriving white middle class nirvanas with foreclosed homes on either side of them dont see that this was a problem with RICH bankers lending irresponsibly and that they were taking advantage of people who were not finacial professionals, even white people, even thier own neighbors and family members…
anyway I dont really know where i am going with this but, I think it would be interesting to see how whites in general react to other whites in traumatic positions. I dont think the results would place white culture in positive light at all. I think if hurrican Katrina were to happen in a town completely populated with white lutheran ministers babies and grandmas, a great many whites would find ways to blame them for thier plight. This is in NO WAY meant to diminish the influence of racism, which does compund the lack of empathy… but i suspect that empathy for negative emotion in general is a rare thing in whites period, and having an obviously different color of skin just makes it less necessary to mask the non empathetic response…
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Oh, the exception to this theory of mine is the missing, pretty white woman. White people can’t get enough of empathizing with a lovely white girl who might at this very moment be being violated and defiled in any number of horrible manners. I dont know what that says about WP being empathetic though, I wonder if it is more than that… If the missing pretty white girl is something of a fantasy reaction? Do people buy all the magazines and watch all the newscasts with rapt attention cause they secretly want to be the heroic other who solves the insidious scourge of this trauma? Not realizing that it is a exceedingly rare societal ill to befall pretty white girls?? I dont even want to speculate there.
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>>I am not from a military family but from what I understand the military is markedly less racist than American society in general.
The key word there is “less.” My family has been military for over 100 years–even the women always marry military men. There is certainly racism in the military and always has been, but the nature of combat enforces a certain degree of meritocracy that can be ignored more safely in civilian society.
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well it is natural for people to have more empathy for people of their own race. Blacks and asians should have more empathy for people like themselves. but tell me. go down to the nearly animal shelter. look who volunteer to take care of abused and abandoned animals. WHITE PEOPLE.
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“well it is natural for people to have more empathy for people of their own race.”
Not really, Tony.
Think of how many times you haven’t necessarily felt empathy toward some Wall Street fat cat who was making a career of ripping everybody off, just because he happened to be White. I bet you that I can name quite a few cases of people who you couldn’t care less about their skin color was, but you judge them on WHAT they have done.
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Interesting. I think if it were the other way around with “blacks” and “asians” doing the test it could show the same results. I do know when i see a sad movie with “whites” in it i feel no emotion and get bored. There is no empathy. When there is a minority I will tear up much easier. Not ALL the time but majority of the time. I feel so cruel. 😦 But I think because of history and such things I’ve sort of put up a block to feel anything. I guess a defense mechanism? However, if it is children who suffer some sort of abuse or neglect I have very very strong emotions no matter the cultural background.
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[…] The hearts of white people: the science « Abagond A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing. […]
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What matters to me about this study is that, by design, it was directed against my people. One knows it instinctively that kinship with one’s race is one of the essential elements of our identity. The same result would have been obtained if the subjects of the study were Asians or Africans or any other race, but did the ‘scientists’ bother to broadly look at human nature? Of course, not.
The purpose of this study was not to reinvent the wheel; it was to demonize the Europeans and their descendants in the eyes of those who have benefited the most from European generosity, hard work, and inventiveness. The reason why you folks are not dying in a straw hut at the ripe old age of 25, have access to indoor plumbing, education, can read and write, travel and can process what you see around yourselves with knowledge and understanding (clearly not always, though.,.) is precisely because of us, the white folks who, so far, have been kind and patient enough to put up with the annoying and largely unproductive blacks and some other colored races (but not all – East Asians are a clear exception being wonderfully intelligent and hard working). Keep that in mind as you whine and complain, enjoy welfare, student loans, and public-sector jobs supported by productive and hard working objects of your absurd complaints.
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/05/27/race.empathy/index.html
in case you ingrates never bothered to consider that the results would be the same if Black test subjects were used… there ya go… somebody did a more rounded study.
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Nothing the world didn’t know already. History tells us that white people are cold in their interactions with other groups of people. My advice would be not to place too much (if any) emphasis on what white people think or feel about other ethnicities. All you’re doing, by complaining about how you feel ignored or disregarded by them, is massaging their already massive egos. I say that if whites are going to disregard the humanity of others, then whites should be treated the same way. Then get on with your lives, and spend your time with people who possess the capacity to relate to you.
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Tony Soprano said:
“well it is natural for people to have more empathy for people of their own race. Blacks and asians should have more empathy for people like themselves. but tell me. go down to the nearly animal shelter. look who volunteer to take care of abused and abandoned animals. WHITE PEOPLE.”
Yes, isn’t that interesting? And in light of the fact (as other posters have remarked) that people tend to empathize with those most like them, it does make one think, doesn’t it?
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God, this study scares me so much. Because I’m white, and I’m terrified of being a horrible person without even knowing it. I wonder if there’s any way to fix faulty mirror neurons. I hope so.
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It scares me the way the electrocution experiment does, too.
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I wonder what would happen if they showed a kitten drinking from a bowl…oe a puppy…
Suddently the brain would go “AGSDFSDFSFBHDSF” or something like that
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I can’t believe the sheer number of hypocritical comments on this page.
Some of you are actually seem convinced that white people are inherently evil or cold-hearted. All I can say is that I am sick of this blatant reverse racism.
I am all for showing race differences, but this study is clearly just trying to portray white people in a bad light. And the sad thing is that ignorant people (some of them seem to be on this forum) actually take what they say as the truth. This study is, unrepresentative, ethnocentric, and just downright racist.
I am a white South African who is just sick and tired of having to feel bad for being white. I was two when apartheid ended and I was raised without the thought of colour.
Some of you are saying that your experience shows you that white people don’t care for others races. Well guess what, my experience shows me the exact same thing about black people towards white people. This forum is a good example.
“God, this study scares me so much. Because I’m white, and I’m terrified of being a horrible person without even knowing it. I wonder if there’s any way to fix faulty mirror neurons. I hope so.”
Look at what this stuff makes people think. This guy is afraid of being white because he thinks it makes him a horrible person.
How would you guys feel if you went onto a forum and found posts with people saying that black people were just born cold-hearted. That’s right, you would call those people racist. So please look at yourselves before you go around hurling accusations at white people.
I wish I didn’t have to point this stuff out but here it goes: THIS IS A SHIT STUDY!
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I have been studying this site for more than 2 weeks now and agree with most of the posts by Abagond. I know from my own experience on this earth, living and working and traveling among Whites, that a lot of the characteristics attributed to the White race is very spot-on. This is probably why they are always being haunted, possessed by demons, and attacked by evil spirits.
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[…] A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing. Jennifer N. Gutsell and Mi… […]
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[…] A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing. Jennifer N. Gutsell and Mi… […]
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[…] A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing. Jennifer N. Gutsell and Mi… […]
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I am not shocked. Whites only see themselves as human beings yet they are basically Neanderthals! And I know the nature of White people because I live around them and because I study their actions.
1) They think they are better than everyone who isn’t White
2) They lack emotion, heart and empathy for others unless they look like them but honestly I think they lack empathy period.
3) They look down on non Whites.
This Scientific study just confirms the truth about these Neanderthals and my observations too.
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I’ll take the neuroscience bait…
IMO, An interesting study which has been wrapped up in a bulky rhetorical package.
The white-only sample showed the most mirror neuron activity when subjects watched themselves – a 6 fold increase over that resulting watching another white person. SE asians (more closely resembling white skin tone) was next, followed by blacks. My interpretation was that the more similar the model was to the participant, the more the mirror neurons were active. A very interesting finding to be sure!
This author over-generalized the activity of the mirror neurons to indicate that “White people feel nothing”, suggesting the absence of emotion, or empathy. No where in the actual study do the author suggests that mirror neurons are solely responsible for empathy or emotion – the amygdala (A major structure in the limbic system) comes to mind. I also take issue with the suggestion that I feel nothing for my fellow man, but that is a separate issue.
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In my observation when it comes to black people and names, instead of trying to learn how to pronounce the black person’s name will resort to calling them something else, saying it’s too hard to pronounce. It reminds me of the old antebellum era in where southern whites use of the word negro was reduced to the word nigra, because negro was too hard to pronounce. This speaks volumes, it means they don’t care enough to respectably learn the proper pronounciation of a person’s name.
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This is an interesting post, I will not say that all whites have no emotions or empathy in regards to other non white people, but a great many of them are unsympathetic to the plight of non white people. I didn’t say all but many. I am not about demonizing all whites.
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Oops pronunciation.
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[…] A new study shows that when whites look at blacks and Asians doing something ordinary they feel almost nothing as compared to looking at whites doing the very same thing. Jennifer N. Gutsell and Mi… […]
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I would like to see the same experiment done with non-white people.
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I don’t think white people are naturally cold-hearted or inhuman, but I believe many have been conditioned to feel that people of color are less than human. How could they help otherwise? It’s this twisted racist society we live in.
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@Ryder I was talking about the study that is the topic of this post, which only mentioned whites.
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Dear White People: Film Tackles Racial Stereotypes on Campus & Being a “Black Face in a White Space”
(http://youtu.be/wCfeXUyYH4I)
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Dear White People: Film Tackles Racial Stereotypes on Campus & Being a “Black Face in a White Space”
(http://youtu.be/wCfeXUyYH4I)
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We are of the theory that the Caucasian people do have a soul. A being cannot experience life on this plane without a soul. Soul is the breath of life of great spirit. It is our connection to creation/universe. It is the fire within that connects us all. Caucasians exhibit a huge gap between body and soul. We call it a ‘disconnect.’ Brown people of earth have a tiny gap as compared to the Caucasian (compare one inch with the width of the Grand Canyon). It is this gap that places them out of touch with everything on earth. It is this gap that allows them to commit genocide and destroy earth without thinking twice. They have no culture, no roots, and no traditions. They have no drum in their history and no rhythm; they do not recognize the heart beat of earth and the universe. Their science is just now catching up with wisdom of brown people of earth. One thing for sure is that these creatures will not stop.
“WE SEE THEM AS HUMAN, THEY LOOK LIKE REAL HUMANS BUT THEY ARE NOT, THEY DO NOT HAVE HUE TO BE MAN.”
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The most ironic part of this thread is that Natasha doesn’t realize that she herself is a racist.
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It was suggested to me long ago, I am 62, that the only things white people care about are(black people-say it with me): money, power and other white peoplel.
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Thanks for re-directing me to this Abagond. As they say the opposite of love isn’t hate; the opposite of love is indifference.
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This studies remind me of the dying beauty propaganda.
When white people and brainwash slaves reacte strongly toward a dying white girl than black girl on television.
I was referring to the Hunger Game Movie.
The crazy thing is. Some racists believe the death of black girl aka Ruby Burn doesn’t need a tear or mass roit.
Almost like the Latasha Harlins’ case.
People thought Ruby was a white girl in the book. They cry over the fiction character due to the vintage black/white movie brainwash humanity to weep for the mother of whiteness.
Truly felt heartbroken of her character isnt the image of fragile white girl in their head. So tries everything to erase aka whitewash for Ruby as another race. It was hard for them.
This kinda stuff goes through many studies from Doll Test to BlackLikeMe
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What a bunch of crap. I don’t take anything from “studies” that are geared to insight racism and pit people against one another. Why pick “White” people to focus on instead of many different races? This just proves that racists will attempt to build credibility behind their hate. No. You’re just being what you claim to be against.
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Alrighty!
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So, was this “scientific” study repeated with a fresh group of subjects, only reversed so that black people, or Asians, or Native Americans were viewing video…to evaluate if watching white people drink water made their brains react the same as watching someone of their own race? That would be more conclusive, no? Like proving a math theorem, don’t they usually work it in reverse also, as “proof”??
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My guess, if they tested U.S. POC, they would show high amounts of empathy toward whites and members of their own group, at least, because whites are the dominant group; as I understand, for their own survival, POC often watch white people and try to understand them.
This seems to explain a lot of the problems revolving around race, a lack of empathy by white people toward POC. I bet, however, white people are well-attuned to anything that may represent a threat from a POC. Having a hard time being attuned to the feelings of others, except those feelings which represent a threat, is a hallmark of psychopathy. Basically, white people act like psychopaths toward POC. This explains a lot.
It also explains a lot in other situations, especially in the kind of genocides and tortures we’ve seen in the past. The perpetrators lack empathy for their victims, except insofar as those victims may pose a threat to them, enabling the perpetrators to commit unspeakable horrors.
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Yeah Erika, I agree with your post, what a Mabel posted. I think white people are hardwired by nature to not care/show aggression towards those outside of their race. It reminds of studies about gay men facial preference for males faces and increased hostility towards women.
There seem to be a strange neurological parrallel between white racism and gay misogyny.
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There was no compassion for the black community being affected by the crack epidemic so now the white folks in suburban communities in America are being affected and now it’s a problem. This is the mindset of the dominant culture they don’t care about anyone else until it affects them.
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The same with guns when other non white communites are affected by gun violence and brutality by law enforcement they don’t care but let something like the incident in Las Vegas happens and suddenly it’s all about them.
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A study of this nature that fails to conduct the experiment in reverse (i.e. measuring the results of other “in-groups” observing “out-groups”) but attempts to draw definitive conclusions is not only absurdly unscientific, but very obviously agenda driven. Not surprising in an age where the public conversation is dominated by pseudo-academic nonsense coming from institutions of higher learning.
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wow 30 out of 26 million, that surly is a good representation
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