The model minority stereotype (1966- ) is how many in America see Asians, what I will call those whose family came to the country from East Asia (though much of this applies to South Asians too). They are seen as doing well in school, not causing trouble and so on.
Although it might seem like a good thing, many Asians hate being seen that way. Because it is not true. Because Asians are just people, not some strange stereotype cooked up in the minds of white people.
To see just how cooked up it is, notice how it is always the opposite of the stereotype for blacks:
| black men | Asian men |
| ill-mannered | well-behaved |
| brainless | brainy |
| cool | nerdy |
| good at sports | bad at sports |
| do not like to work | hard-working |
| do not care about their children | family-oriented |
| violent | peaceful |
| break the law | make little trouble |
| have little education | have good educations |
| poor | well-to-do |
| succeed by preferences | succeed by merit |
| black women | Asian women |
| ugly | pretty |
| loud-mouthed | quiet |
| bossy | submissive |
That is pretty strange when you consider that the stereotypes about blacks have very little to do with Asians but everything to do with the ugly history of race in America, with whites trying to cover up their crimes against blacks.
The model minority stereotype comes from whites trying to blame blacks for their condition. It lets white people believe that Asians come here with nothing and, even though they are not white, they still make it. So there must be something wrong with blacks!
By holding this stereotype, whites are not patting Asians on the back – they are patting themselves on the back!!
It is a fact that Asians in general have better educations and make more money than even whites. That is because many came to America to get university degrees and stayed. They did not pull themselves up from the bottom – they started near the top!
But it is also a fact that Asians are more likely to live in poverty than whites. Some Asians started out at the bottom and many of them are still there, like Cambodians, Laotians, Hmongs and some of the Chinese. One of the most violent parts of Manhattan is Chinese. Some of the poorest people I have ever seen in America are Hmongs.
And even well-to-do Korean Americans, say, still experience racism. Even when they are born in America whites still see them as foreigners: they are always Asians, never just plain old Americans. Whites do not trust them with important positions. Why? Like with blacks, whites see them as being “not like us”, meaning that in a bad way.
I think in time Asians will come close to being like Jews: in the white American mind they will go from “not like us” to “not quite like us”. They will come to understand that you can be a true-blue American and still look Asian. But Asians will never get closer than the Jews so long as whites are racist: unlike Jews, Asians cannot hide where they came from.
See also:
Abagond 
Yes, indeed. Apple-pie America wants to divide people of color/working class whites against one another by promoting “positive” stereotypes of Asians as oppose to African Americans, Latinos, American Indians and poor/working class whites by saying that they are deficient and inferior to the “model minority” and in need of surveillence and perpetual help.
This stereotype does hide the disadvantages Asian face in America, past and present and it’s very dangerous to all Americans, Asians included.
Just like the pure white woman stereotype, the model minority stereotype whitewashes atrocities and exploitation directed at people of African descent.
Stephanie B.
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Right, this stereotype hurts everyone. It does not look like it is aimed at blacks, but it is.
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Thank you for this post Abagond. I’ve noticed that some Asians pick up mainstream America racist views toward blks.
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In New York Asians come here and sometimes it only takes a couple months and they are just as racist against blacks as the whites. You would think they would know better – not being white and being so new to the country. Not always so.
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“And even well-to-do Korean Americans, say, still experience racism. Even when they are born in America whites still see them as foreigners: they are always Asians, never just plain old Americans. Whites do not trust them with important positions. Why? Like with blacks, whites see them as being “not like us”, meaning that in a bad way.”- Abagond
BINGO!!
Sure, they may be acceptable to mainstream folks eager to find a nonthreatening POC group but in no way want they want them to be equal to them. They just want to hurt and look down on Blacks as always.
Steph
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Asians don’t pick up any mainstream view, But I guess denial that your race to foreigners will yes put them off.
I’m Korean/Black, I can see how a Korean or any asian coming here and most likely gets their store or something stolen from them by a black person would put them off.
Black americans seem to think everyone owes them something, even asians, and that digust them even more. Which is why I thank god my mother is Somali and not some AA trash.
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Oh reallly YBnie!
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Thanks Chic Noir. I was this close to deleting her comment.
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Actually, the fact about East Asians having a higher average annual salary than white Americans is actually a manipulation.
The majority of East Asians in the U.S. reside in California, first. New York, secondly. The cost of living in both states, especially in the financially-troubled CA is ridiciously higher than other parts of the country. So, of course, East Asians would have a higher average salary, the cost of living is higher! East Asians, also tend to have a larger family on average, according to the Census. So combine the higher salary in a high-priced location with more people to take care of and you see that East Asians, on average, are not generally affluent. In fact, few East Asians are in high-ranking positions, in say, business or government.
So, the model minority stereotype is not only a sideways swipe at black Americans, it’s a ploy to cover up the inequity between East Asians and white Americans.
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East Asians, also tend to have a larger family on average, according to the Census.
True but they also have higher personal income:
The counter balance to the higher salaries in urban areas is that a fairly high percentage of Asians, especially Chinese, Lao, Kmer, and Hmong are recent immigrants and are relegated to lower paying jobs because of language barriers. As a percentage of the population there are few non-Hispanic whites who would fall into this category. I’ve read a study that said Second (and higher) generation Asian median income (individual) outpaces the median white income by more than 20%.
In many metrics Asians outpace whites. Scores on SAT tests. Academic performance. Infant mortality rate (lower), Crime (roughly 1/4 that of whites…)
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That’s gotta be a blessing and a curse for them. It’s a blessing because they are assumed to be “ideal” but it’s a curse when they’re not and fail to live up to the expectations.
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^ I find this to be true, well, in my case. You’d be surprised how often I’m told why I didn’t become a doctor, scientist, or an engineer. It seems as if that it’s expected of me. I work with children and I enjoy what I do. Sorry to burst anyone’s bubble. 😉
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YBnie, to see trash you do not have to look any further than the Somali community you rep. It’s some shiftless/lazy folks and ne’erdowells in that community as well too so just stop;and I only said something about Somalis because you made a point to mention this. All of you are “not” wallowing in wealth! This applies to some Koreans and other Asian groups too, because every group has its criminals,ne’erdowells, and lazy folks!
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The model minority stereotype is not founded in reality. I grew up in the Bay Area in San Francisco, CA; the most predominantly Asian big city in America. Asians are much more diverse on the West Coast and come from all income levels and backgrounds. But at the same time, I saw much poverty, mental illness, violence, alcoholism, drug addiction and gang problems in the urban Asian American community that is overlooked and often swept under the rug by the White dominated media. However, living in the Bay Area, it was always understood that it was dangerous being Asian because of all of the well-documented interracial tensions and gangs in California. Growing up, all minorities were more or less the same. Where I’m from, many Asians lived in the ghetto just like Blacks and Latinos. Asian youth were just as likely to gang bang and sell drugs just like other minorities. However, I currently live on the East Coast and I am appalled out how stereotypical Asians tend to be outside of NYC and parts of Philly. Out here on the East Coast, most Asians are Koreans who own liquor stores, mini marts and deli’s.
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Abagond, what about Asians and Asian-Americans using this phenomenon to pat themselves in the back? I’ve read Asian oriented forums where users pull up the stats that illustrate Asian economic power in comparison to other races. The main problem many people don’t view Asians as an oppressed group is because they’ve gotten to a relative position of power here in the United States by kowtowing to the system. African Americans on average fought for civil liberty while enduring the horror of chattel slavery (something Asians didn’t face in this country). American Indians for the most part fought against the oppressive doctrine of Manifest Destiny as the U.S. expanded westward while not fulfilling numerous treaties in the process (Asians didn’t face that in this country). Really, what’s the relative percentage of Asian-Black or Asian-Native relationships in comparison with white-Asian relationships here in the U.S. or Canada? Do you think Asians back then wanted to hobnob with the oppressed and generally picked-on minorities or those groups that wielded money and thus the power to influence the way things were run in this country? When people talk about the hardships the Chinese faced when they WILLINGLY immigrated to California, making a spot for themselves while they were at it, not much attention is paid to the indigenous groups that were displaced, had bounties placed on their heads and had their populations decimated to very low numbers to make it even possible for the Chinese and other groups to strike it rich at the expense of others. Hmm, much like what the model minority phenomenon is doing.
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Its the (rich) white man’s game and the system benefits him.
Generally, I tend to view the Chinese as being similar to the French in having more of a feeling of cultural rather than biological superiority. Racial Xenophobia seems to be strongest in Japan in my view.
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Generally, I tend to view the Chinese as being similar to the French in having more of a feeling of cultural rather than biological superiority. Racial Xenophobia seems to be strongest in Japan in my view.
As far as hatred for blacks, I tend to feel South Asians (generally not individually) in India radiate more hostility than East Asians. I suspect this is because they already have a deeply entrenched system of bigotry i.e. the caste system and that they are applying it to the world.
Here, in American though, I feel many people (not just Asians but many others including many blacks) buy into anti-black & pro-light imagery and stereotypes that ultimately boost white supremacy. Its the (rich) white man’s game and this system benefits him.
Ultimately, though, there are “good” and “bad” people in every group.
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I wish you had also compared the stereotypes of black and Asian men as you did for the women. It’s interesting to see how the stereotypes are similarly negative. Wouldn’t this also be a reference to the pure white woman syndrome.
I would also like to point out that Asians do not become assimilated to American racism. Colourism has long been a part of Asian society, and long before colonial intrusion. One only has to look at ancient fashion in Japan and China to discover that lighter skin has always been favored.
Racist Asians were likely racist before their arrival in America.
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We’re in 2012! Race is still an issue. When will that stop? America is not a white country. The yellow people were the first settlers. Stereotype keeps people backwards, especially those who never took the time to study history. Order my book “Let History finally speak!”
You’ll be surprised at the stereotype that drowned the Haitians.
What race has to do with human potential? It’s just a matter of opportunity and wisdom.
Thank You!
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Not always so. Socially concious Asians are aware of the racial discrimination whites place on blacks for their own egoistic desires. Asians in many ways are the new Jews in America. Espically looking at how US is seeking political and economical powers over China. This competitive streak can carry over to cultural and social realms. Although never forget to pick out individualistic views over stereotypes. Narrowing the spect of social mobility isn’t to anyone’s advantage in this day and age.
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Never saw it Laid out so thoroughly. Excellent post.
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“The main problem many people don’t view Asians as an oppressed group is because they’ve gotten to a relative position of power here in the United States by kowtowing to the system.”
That comment was from almost 3 years ago, but just wondering what “kowtowing to the system” means in this context.
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That was an enlightening post. Seeing how I am trying to understand about this social issue of Asians in American society. There was a point that stood out for me. The point about Asians not starting from the bottom but from the top, even above whites.
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Mary, that is only a portion of Asian-Americans, the ones who came to the USA for Graduate school or their doctorate and decided to stay behind. It is not all or even most Asian Americans. Far from it. And that “top” only refers to their educational level, not their social level in US society.
Some Asian-Americans start out at the very bottom, even below most blacks, with no education, skills or language that is easily transferable to the US economy. It is not all, but many.
Some can trace some of their ancestors back to the mid-19th century or even earlier, people who came to work on the railroads or the mines.
And the ones you see in urban Asian neighborhoods — those are usually NOT the post-graduate / doctorate degree holders.
Might you consider not letting that “enlightening point” become yet another stereotype? I am afraid that you might stereotype the next one you meet. The main point for me was
“many Asians hate being seen that way. Because it is not true.”
Thanks.
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A new youtube interview for a new book has just been uploaded
The Model Minority Stereotype: Demystifying Asian American Success (Dr. Nicholas D. Hartlep )
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDKMZfaC-y0)
It is a full hour, a bit long. For me the crux of it comes at around 53:30, where he addresses how the model minority stereotype does not help Asians, but is used to confirm white supremacy, and it also impacts non-Asians and non-whites; he links it up to the impact of the Trayvon Martin incident.
He also has links to 465 sources on the subject:
http://my.ilstu.edu/blogs/ndhartl/
To everyone: I firmly believe that it is the growth and promotion of the model minority stereotype that has contributed to an erosion of civil rights in the USA and to further whitewash history.
And as I pointed out in another thread, it was initially invented by the white media to target blacks (to blame them for their own condition and to let whites off the hook).
Abagond nailed the matter here:
They are using it to erode all civil rights and remedies, including affirmative action and voting rights, which some SCOTUS justices are now calling “entitlements”.
But, how do we eliminate or control the use of a stereotype? First, you have to recognize it and call it out.
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Hey Jefe, ever hear of the ‘bamboo ceiling’?
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Of course. A post on that would be good too.
http://www.asiancemagazine.com/news/2012/05/16/a-bamboo-ceiling-for-would-be-asian-leaders
As that article suggests, Americans want them to conform to stereotypes. If they don’t they are penalized. In either case, they will not be allowed to rise to leadership positions.
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Again, more model minority stereotype disseminated by the white U.S. media.
http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2013/08/01/n-asian-american-unemployment-low.cnnmoney/index.html?
* Asian-American unemployment is lower than whites, but not when educational attainment is taken into account.
* Income is actually lower, esp. when educational attainment is taken into account.
* Asian-American poverty is also higher than whites
* Self-employment is much higher (partially because of the other reasons)
I really really wish they would stop doing that and give a much more accurate picture, as it
– pits non-whites against each other (it is a disguised attack on blacks)
– fools many Asian-Americans into thinking that they are better or at least that whites think highly of them
– leaves white Americans off the hook, lets them pat themselves on the back on how post-racial their society has become (if that were indeed so, then there would be no need to feed this model minority stereotype crap and racialize the concept)
– perpetuates stereotypes that contribute to the formation of bamboo ceilings
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It is also similar to how Americans saw Jews pre-WWII.
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@Kiwi
“We know, however, that anti-Asian quotas give white students an advantage over Asian-American students.”
And they are fine with this but cry foul about affirmative action.
I remember once being in class and we were introducing ourselves. An Asian student mentioned that he wasn’t good at math. The professor acted in disbelief and claimed he was lying. The entire class seemed to think that was funny. It unsettled me a bit, but I was still quite a white-identified individual (working on that), so I didn’t know why. I just remember thinking, “Well, that’s going to make him feel stupid, or as if something is wrong with him.”
Reading about the model minority stereotype,I get what was wrong now. Even if people see it as a ‘good’ stereotype it really isn’t. It can set some very unhealthy expectations for people, which may lead to depression, etc. Also it still treats Asians as the ‘other’.
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Abagond’s posts on the various aspects of racism is so broad and wide ranging its like a encyclopedia – with real live examples as well.
Eventually I gotta download the whole site for months of offline reading.
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“…model minority stereotype maintains the dominance of Whites in the racial hierarchy….”
http://udini.proquest.com/view/the-impact-of-the-model-minority-pqid:1870615451/
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The following is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article concerning the myth of the Model Minority:
“Invisible Model Minority: Africans”
“In terms of education as a whole African immigrants and American born to African immigrants they slightly outperform Asian Americans, they outperform White Americans at double their rate, and outperform Black Americans who are descendants of Africans from the Atlantic slave trade at four times their rate.
“Of the 8 percent of the Ivy League Universities’ such as Princeton population which are Black students at an overwhelming 50-66 percent was made up of Black African immigrants, Caribbean immigrants, and American born to those immigrants.[51][52][63] Many top universities report that a disproportionate of the black student population consists of recent immigrants, their children, or were mixed race.[64]
“African Immigrants and Americans born of African immigrants have been reported as having some of the lowest crime rates in the United States and being one of the unlikeliest groups to go into or commit crime. African immigrants have even been reported to have lowered crime rates in neighborhoods in which they have moved into.[69]
“Black immigrants from Black majority countries are revealed to be much healthier than Blacks from countries that are not majority Black and where they constitute a minority. Thus African immigrants are often much healthier than American-born Blacks and Black immigrants from Europe.[70]”
“Inadvertently many succeeding generations are often extremely successful frequently being employed in jobs and careers such as, but are not limited to: doctors, lawyers, business owners (small businesses or otherwise), managers, nurses, accountants, engineers, and especially academic professionals such as college professors.
“Many of these American groups have thus transplanted high cultural emphasis on education and work ethic into their cultures which can be seen in the cultures[71] of Algerian Americans,Kenyan Americans.,[72] Sierra Leonean Americans,[73] Ghanaian Americans, Malawian Americans,[74] Congolese Americans,[75] Tanzanian Americans,[76] and especially Nigerian[77] and Egyptian Americans.[78]”
“Outside of the United States”
“Other than in the United States Africans have been experienced success in numerous other countries such as the United States, Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom. These countries have attracted many educated and highly skilled African immigrants with enough resources for them to start a new life in these countries.[55]
“In the case of the United Kingdom one report has revealed that African immigrants have high rates of employment and that African immigrants are doing better economically than many other immigrant groups in the UK.[79]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority
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@ Abagond, you hit it on the nail with the arrows of up and down stereotypes of Asians and Blacks, respectively. There’s a Japanese-American (Eurasian) guy (who lives in Hawaii, so he says) that goes by the Internet name of takfam07. He has said all of the things you’ve mentioned pertaining to white racism and black stereotypes. He uses the highly respected education (that includes SAT and IQ tests) and socioeconomic statistics of East Asians to belittle African-Americans. But thanks to your blog, I’ve debunked his myths pertaining to Blacks, Whites, Mestizos, Asians and Native Americans. Each one, teach one! Again, thanks.
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Glad to be of service.
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Actually, I read every single comment on this particular post – ‘The model minority stereotype’. The comments were very, very interesting. However, there was one particular comment that was worthy of deletion – YBnie’s ignorant comment (6th comment). “I’m Korean/Black, I can see how a Korean or any asian coming here and most likely gets their store or something stolen from them by a black person would put them off. Black americans seem to think everyone owes them something, even asians, and that digust [disgust] them even more. Which is why I thank my mother is Somali and not some AA trash”. First, I seriously doubt he or she is of mixed African and Asian descent. (A commenter can easily lie about his or her ethnic identity for various reasons…but for the sake of argument, he or she is being truthful of his or her mixed ethnic identity.) Secondly, this person obviously doesn’t know anything about structural white supremacy/racism. And thirdly, whites and Asians (alike) see black people the same – that includes Somalis.
I know that the movie, “Captain Phillips” came out after you posted this enlightened topic, but in the movie (Captain Phillips) white people basically showed viewers how much they felt about black people, globally. In the movie, the Somalis got NO respect. The Somalis were the white man’s over-seas villains. In the lens of white people and brainwashed people of color, my Somali brothers are stereotyped as “pirate trash”, which is no different than the way whites have stereotyped Arabs as “terrorists”. If this YBnie person hasn’t seen the movie, Captain Phillips, I advise him or her to watch it and just maybe his or her outlook on people, particularly black people, would be a little bit different. Ashe! Thank you.
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Kiwi:
I’m not sure that your assertion holds if you factor in that many of the poorer Chinese arrived in the US with lower levels of education, and thus more limited economic opportunities.
Analyzing the performance of the second and third generations would seem more illustrative. You might still be right, but an apple to apples comparison would seem a requirement here.
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@ Kiwi
Well said.
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@ Kiwi, Abagond et al
I wonder if you’ve read ‘Outliers’? I know that there is a post on this but it didn’t really get to the crux of Gladwell’s arguments… did you read the whole book Abagond?
Gladwell discusses the factors that result in success/falure extensively – including the reasons why Asian people are ‘so good at maths’.
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@ Wordy
I have only read part of “Outliers”. Sounds pretty cringetastic from what you say.
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@ Abagond
I wasn’t being tongue in cheek. I covered it in my book club this month and found it really interesting – although his theories almost seem a little bit too watertight.
For example, he claims that the way that numbers are expressed in some languages (e.g. Korean) subconsciously teach native speakers to do sums before they even start school.
Anyway I thought his approach was really interesting and busted at least a few sacred cows – e.g. the bootstrap myth.
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I kind of chuckle at the stereotype above that Asian women are quiet and submissive. It does not apply to most of the Asian women I know, say, in my family, and other Asian households.
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A few years back, a “reality” show called K-Town (which was rather crappy due to the over the top acting) made an appearance. This show was basically the Jersey Shore equivalent, but with Asian Americans (Koreans).
There was an uproar amongst Asian-Americans in different forums I went to, and many felt this show would ruin the image of Asians being the model minority. The Koreans in the show are seen fighting, drinking, doing stupid stuff, etc. However, I thought differently. I liked how the show made it seem Asian-Americans aren’t perfect in that we’re just like everybody else.
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Here is Bill O’Reilly on “Asian privilege”:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeEIZswvRVU)
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Abagond,
Thank you for sharing that clip. O’Reilly is straight up spewing out the Model Minority cr@p stuff (as well as the Perpetual Foreigner junk). It is no more meaningful than citing black crime statistics.
BUT…..
May I turn your attention to the rebuttal that The Young Turks made to O’Reilly’s debate with Megyn Kelly (14:43).
(http://youtu.be/HWhUqbTAUQU)
I do like how they shoot O’Reilly’s argument down, but they did it in part by citing a lot of misinformation about Asian Americans and their history in the US. They said stuff like (after 7:15)
– For over 100 years, Asians have not suffered aggressive acts of racism in the USA
– Asians were not sent to to the Deep South to pick cotton for no pay
– Whites did not go to Asia to bring them back crammed into slave ships and force them to work against their will
– Asians did not die on the slave ships or in their forced labour conditions
– Asians did not get separated from their families
– Asians were not subject to Jim Crow like blacks
– Asians were not refused employment for being Asian
– Asians were not kept from moving into neighborhoods like blacks
– Perpetual foreigner stuff (like language problems)
😮 😮 😮
WTF!
That is NOT the reason the Model Minority Stereotype is inaccurate.
I guess they also forgot that they wiped out half of Chinese Americans in just 2 decades and the largest single public lynching on US soil was meted at ethnic Chinese. They didn’t mentioned how they stripped Filipinos of US nationality. Most of all they had completely amnesia about the Japanese American Internment experience.
They *almost* said that Asians were not prevented from voting like blacks were. (I say almost, because they only mentioned about how the Voting Rights Act was used to reverse the practices that kept blacks from voting. Keeping a population out of the country or otherwise permanently alien is a surefire way to keep them from voting.)
I normally like The Young Turks, but DANG. Just shows me that we need to have Asian American history in the curriculum. There is so much misinformation in the American psyche and they are spreading it in the media too.
I agree that the PAST and CURRENT discrimination is not the same as blacks. It is more often than not NOT comparable. They are racially profiled too, but in a different way (e.g., as traitors). Their dehumanization is different; it is used to propel America’s war machine. There are even certain forms of discrimination (eg, Perpetual Foreigner, the “go to” group one can use ethnic slurs without impunity, quotas, etc.) that Asians tend to suffer more than blacks.
Anyhow, it is not a contest and I really don’t like what The Young Turks did there. They sound just as dumb as O’Reilly.
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@ Jefe
Same here: the Young Turks are generally pretty good, especially when it comes to catching racist double standards and taking down Fox News, but this video made me cringe. Surely they knew about the Japanese American internment, if nothing else.
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Amazing.
Abagond, your Bill O’Reilly clip and Jefe, the Young Turks’ rebuttal you provided, shows me precisely how the Model Minority stereotype endures and endures. Ignorance and misinformation is its oxygen.
I understand more clearly now why it’s not only the bigoted and arrogant bullies who deny their White Privilege who enforce this.
The well-meaning and supposedly well-informed broadcaster-educators perpetuate similar fallacies as well.
Believing Asians do not and never did suffer aggressive racism — unlike black people — seems to be something deeply ingrained in the national psyche.
Asians were not slaves, or cotton pickers, were never lynched, freighted as human cargo on the same slave ships as the Africans before them, refused employment due to their race, subject to Jim Crow…all this is omitted and “no one” would have a clue about any of that if they didn’t make a concerted effort to find out the truth.
I doubt if this is any kind of accident.
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The Young Turks video is a good example of how the model minority stereotype allows Whites to pat themselves on the back for a past that never was.
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Yes, Abagond. You’re spot on — it was toe-curlingly awful.
Something I don’t understand (maybe because I’ve never seen a full episode of “Young Turks”), is why the guy who seems to usually front it didn’t cover this story? (I don’t know, but I am assuming he is Turkish.)
The 2 or 3 clips of him from the show that I have seen always gave me the impression he hadn’t fully joined the White Club.
Somehow, instinct tells me that he wouldn’t have walked into that “Asians have it easier” lie so readily.
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@Bulanik
So now you get how both sides of the white aisle got it wrong, in a very cringetastic (to use Abagond’s vocab) way.
So what can we do about it?
We know what happened. They invented the Model Minority stereotype towards the end of the civil rights movement (before the Immigration and Naturalization law of 1965 came into effect in 1968) and then actively promoted the since the mid-80s as a backlash to Affirmative Action. Now, 30 years have passed, and according to the Teflon theory of history, all history has all been erased, even Vincent Chin and Japanese American Internment. As if it never even happened.
But what can be done? I wish I knew. Maybe James R. Loewen can help.
What are we saying? It was an FBI plot? the media has a vested interest?
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Take a look of B-stylers in Japan
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Before we can dismantle the Model Minority Stereotype or address the Yellow Peril hysteria, we have to solve the problem of the erasure of the Asian-American narrative and replaced with a blank slate.
This was the problem I was talking about.
Yellow Peril has been with us since the 19th century. Model Minority came into the forefront just in the last generation.
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Jefe and Kiwi,
Mass unbrainwashing is the key. Both Asians and everyone else needs to see the truth that:
1. For 500+ years anglo whites are the main brutalizers of ALL non-whites
2. white supremacy is a farce
They must see the history before the barbaric rise of white power.
That history was dominated by East Asia, Middle East, India, and others.
Europeans weren’t even a consideration. Yet, most non-white accomplishments are ignored. Instead, Eurocentric history paints a fake image of white supremacy that built everything good in the universe and uplifted non-white savages.
The unspeakable evils that helped whites rise must be front and center.
Opium wars in China (50% of males addicted to drugs), British Raj in India (1.8 *BILLION* dead), Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and so many other countries.
The amnesia and manipulation is so strong that these same Indochina countries have healthy relations with America instead of China. It’s lunacy.
Crush their lies with real history.
That’s the only way to stop this.
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Even though the global exploitation by the West is an issue for all non-European diaspora, I don’t want to focus on what they did within Asia when discussing this particular issue as that will bolster the perpetual foreigner stereotype. My main beef with O’Reilly & the Young Turks is how they erased Asian American history and completely have rewritten it. That is not simply solved by brainwashing. Somehow we have to retake and control the narrative.
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Jefe,
Oh, you are focused on America and North America.
I’m writing a lot of the history in North America and Asia.
The hard part is growing a large enough audience or maybe piggy backing on an existing audience. However, the Asian centric youtube channels and websites are too moderate to speak the truth (if they even know it).
Could the Asian immigration community be easier to reach through immigration resource resource centers?
ps I feel that the whole of European war crimes in Asia must be addressed to ensure geopolitical stability and avoid the containment of China and to cure the inferiority comlex/white worship. Too many look up to the west and think they can do no wrong without seeing their flaws. They treat disrespectful foreigners kindly when they should punish them.
Asians have suffered far worse for just breathing air.
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@Yun Xu,
If you look at the subject of the post, it is about the Model Minority Stereotype as it is applied in the USA, specifically as a social control measure for both Asian-Americans and black Americans in the USA.
The issue discussed above was about how both white conservatives and white liberals have misused and abused the Model Minority Stereotype to argue their views about the current issue surrounding black American police brutality and other social disenfranchisment. How could Asian immigration community centres address that problem?
The only thing I could think that they could help with in this area is to make sure that new immigrants to the USA from Asia learn proper Asian American history and not what whites tell them (e.g, what they say on The Young Turks).
I suggest that you read the original US News and World Report article (1966) to learn how the Model Minority stereotype got started.
The main target audience should be whites, esp. white liberals, who theoretically should be in a better position to unlearn their misinformation (white conservatives invented the model minority stereotype and use and abuse it all the time to control blacks and silence Asians.) I don’t see how an Asian centric youtube channel will hit the target audience (the same that produce or watch programs like the Young Turks). Now, Asians and blacks in the USA also need to unlearn their misinformation, but they (esp. Asians) have little control of their narrative and images in the media and the educational system.
I see the problem as Americans only learning white American history, most of which is mythology rather than fact. Asian American, black American, Native American and chicano studies needs to be integrated into the basic US education. Asian American history in particular has been simply erased and replaced with a different narrative.
This is a topic in and of itself and only tangentially related to the Model Minority Stereotype in the USA. The European and American imperialism and conflicts in Asia have had impact on Asian Americans in the USA (most noticeably the Japanese American Internment or white male possessive attitude towards Asian women) but dismantling the Model Minority stereotype probably requires a different focus.
I think we probably do need to have some posts on this at some stage, ie,
– Yellow Peril (in the USA) – this is needed bad
– “Worship” of the West and Westerners (in Asia).
I think bringing up ideas such as the “containment of China” is a derailment and deflection on this topic. It has nothing to do with the Model Minority Stereotype in the USA.
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@Kiwi,
This illustrates how the Model Minority stereotype is simultaneously racist against both blacks and Asians. In particular, it allows whites to actually perform certain racist actions towards Asians that they would never dream of doing to blacks.
We need Asian Americans to learn actual Asian American history and not the lies that have been taught them.
It wouldn’t be titled “Lies My Teacher Taught Me”, but “Lies I learned about a history that never Was”. And then use it to expose white liberal hypocrisy.
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Yun Xu:
Can’t tell if you’re trolling or just stupid… (if the former, hats off to you)
You are advocating Western ideas and lies created by white men.
You think you know better than Asians in Asia. So you are going to teach them their own history. Ridiculous.
Why do Southeast Asians hate Chinese more than whites? Why do Chinese hate Japanese more than whites? Why do Indians hate Pakistanis more than whites?
Why, they must not know what is best for them. They must have been brainwashed. Enter you, grew up mostly in the West, but still have that China pride… and now with your newfound Western acquired knowledge, cooked up by self-hating whites who live in mostly lily white university towns and congratulate themselves on being benevolent social justice warriors as they sip their lattes. You are gonna go teach all those foolish Asian people not to dislike or worry about Chinese.
You can’t make this stuff up.
One thing.. I think your estimate re: number killed by whites in India during the British Raj is way too low. It wasn’t 1.8 billion people, it was 1.8 TRILLION. The worst secret genocide ever (never mind that India had a population of only around 200 million at the time British rule began in 1858).
Crush their lies with real history!
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I’,m sure as a benevolent white man you’ll teach them biff.
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Jefe,
re: If you look at the subject of the post
My bad. I just started from your latest comments.
re:How could Asian immigration community centres address that problem?
Raise awareness of their position in society and understand that they’re an economic and political tool (divide/conquer). They have a very rosy (false) view of western democracy and post-racial nonsense.
re:read the original US News and World Report article (1966)
ok
re: main target audience should be whites, esp. white liberals
I doubt the effectiveness. Many whites still hate Blacks despite being taught about Black slavery (though, I’m not sure how much is sanitized). The hatred of Asians is beyond irrational. Statistically, Asians in general, are the most law-abiding, quiet, and productive immigrants. I don’t have hope that whites will change.
re: white American history, most of which is mythology rather than fact.
Agree.
re:derailment and deflection
Sorry. I lose focus easily.
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biff
https://sites.google.com/site/muslimholocaustmuslimgenocide/indian-holocaust
“self-hating” whites = those who actually know the truth AND have a soul.
Please educate us on how white Christian missionaries “helped” these heathen “savages”. Perhaps you can start with the rape, genocide, and grand theft of Canada, America, and Australia?
Am I using the right terms or should I refer to these war crimes against humanity as “white man’s burden”? or was it manifest destiny? or western democracy?
Pardon me, I get so confused with all the whitewashing euphemisms. It’s hard to keep up. I can’t make this up. Only whites can.
Afterwards, regale us with stories of the world’s most celebrated “champion of the poor”, Mother Teresa, who hoarded hundreds of millions of dollars for the Catholic church while letting the poor suffer because it was “god’s love”….and gave herself top-tier medical treatments when ill.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Missionary-Position-Mother-Practice/dp/1455523003
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@Yun Xu,
I volunteered at Asian American social service organizations before. I really don’t see new immigrants as a force to challenge white American stereotypes about Asian Americans (eg, Perpetual foreigner). We could start with Asian Americans. I have met many who believe what the Young Turks said. We need to stop that narrative in its tracks.
@Kiwi,
Regarding the Model Minority stereotype, I do think most whites (and many blacks and Asians as well) are clueless. Neither side challenged that stereotype.
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Regarding the Model Minority stereotype, I do think most whites (and many blacks and Asians as well) are clueless.
You got that right! There is no such thing as a model minority, never will be. This ‘model minority’ is nothing but a load of codswallop. A divide and conquer tactic which takes the focus off of white supremacy. I understand these stances implicitly.
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@ Bulanik
I agree. I do think Cenk Uygur of the Young Turks would have been better. For one, he would know better than to assume that the US before the 1960s was peaches and cream for ANYONE who was not White. He is Turkish American and seems to have experienced racism first-hand.
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I guess these are the type of warriors we need to fight this form of oppression (caused by this stereotype).
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But the Young Turks rebuttal which tried to tear down his argument was also very appalling. 😦
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@ Kiwi
I totally agree with your comment. What you mentioned is in the book that have in my home library – ‘How Jews Became White Folks & What That Says About Race in America’ by Karen Brodkin.
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@Kiwi,
Congratulation on finding the texts of those articles. The links I had no longer worked.
Note that this analysis did not apply to any post 60s brain drain immigrant. US immigration and Naturalization act of 1965 was passed only in October 1965 and was not enacted until June 30, 1968. Yet the rhetoric from 1966 looks almost unchanged in 2014.
–> So it is a complete fallacy to trace the origin of the Model Minority Stereotype to the outcome of post 60s brain drain immigrants and their children.
But there was a distinct resurgence of the Model Minority in the mid-1980s, timed with the thuggification and welfare queen promotion of black stereotypes. Then the stereotypes were cemented to be the opposite of each other. When I was a child, Asian Americans were more depicted as enemy aliens rather than as the model minority to explain black pathologies.
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@ Kiwi
Again, I totally agree with your comments. Here in California anti-Asian Admissions is heavy at UC schools.
Here’s a link that addresses this issue:
http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-asian-divisions-20140519-story.html
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@ Kiwi
Speaking of the model minority stereotype, there’s a troll who goes by the internet name ‘takfam07. takfam07 says he’s Japanese-American and lives in Hawaii. He claims to be a Harvard graduate. takfam07 loves comparing African-Americans to Asian-Americans (or Africans to East Asians). He uses the model minority stereotype in many of his comments. As a supposedly man of Asian descent, takfam07 believes that white and Asian people are co-superiors to the “inferior” black race, culturally and socioeconomically. He sees everything through white lens. In our discussion forum he teams up with white trolls/racists. He believes that Asian women and white men are the perfect partners (no lie!). He calls the white male-Asian woman relationship a “compatibility”. Now if you ask me I truly believe that takfam07 is lying about his ethnicity. I truly believe he’s a white man that has a fetish for Asian women, which is a fetish that’s becoming more and more common among white men. Although love has no racial boundaries, I’m known for giving the Asian-American/Asian man his props by saying that Asian women are better off with their own Asian man (instead of stereotyping white men.)
If you have the time visit the YouTube video called ‘HOW BLACK EGYPT BECAME BLACK’ posted by Kali Sayyid. It is on this forum that you can read his model minority stereotypes. Among the commenters I do an excellent job debunking his trolling/racist comments by giving links to articles with factual information. I do understand if you feel it would be a waste of your valuable time and energy.
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@Kiwi
Your asking that question implies that you still somehow how believe that the model minority stereotype has anything to do with the post 1968 immigrant brain drain. These articles were written before the Immigration and Naturalization Act became effective, so we know that the entire Model Minority argument was almost entirely based on “old school” immigrants and had nothing to do with the Asian immigrant brain drain.
YES, we are talking about the descendants of the labourers and coolies. The Model Minority stereotype was based on them.
Japanese-Americans were the largest Asian American ethnicity in the 1960s. It is logical that they would select Japanese-Americans to be the first Model Minority group.
Likewise, the Chinese-Americans referred to in the US News and World Report article also had nothing to do with the post 1968 immigrant brain drain. That essentially extended what had already been “observed” in Japanese Americans. Of course, this observation was cooked up.
It should be obvious that the Japanese-Americans, and later Chinese Americans did not “gain” model minority status. They were assigned it.
They were being used to explain social phenomenon, ie, why they didn’t follow the footsteps of European Americans, nor that of blacks. Whereas 2nd generation European immigrants had much higher rates of juvenile delinquency, Japanese Americans did not. Yet, while 3rd and 4th generation European Americans joined assimilated white Americans in the post war era, Japanese Americans had not. It was explained as being due to racial reasons – just 20 odd years earlier they had been imprisoned in internment camps.
The overwhelming majority of Japanese Americans in the 1960s were native born citizens, as well as the majority of Chinese Americans. Numbers of Chinese Americans did not exceed Japanese Americans until the 1970s, and immigrant Chinese did not exceed native born Chinese Americans until after 1980.
But they were also being compared to blacks, esp. the the US News and World Report article. They said that some of the virulent racism that Asians were exposed to even exceeded that meted out to blacks. That is partially true. Yet Asians were not protesting in the streets like blacks.
I thought that was a terrible example. Asian Americans, the “old school” variety learned to keep their mouth shut. A simple order by the president could put the majority in prison. If they could do it to Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans thought they could do it to them. For over 100 years, Chinese Americans were killed by whites with impunity and denied the opportunity to enjoy a normal family life.
So, I think it is no coincidence that the model minority stereotype resurged in the 1980s following the Vincent Chin lynching. It could help quell the outcry among Asian Americans who started to gain a collective consciousness after that. It also could be used to split off Asians and blacks from collaborating with each other. But by that time, the brain drain children were already gaining prominence in schools, starting to win the national academic contests and prizes and starting to fill up many of the elite universities. Of course, it makes no sense to use brain drain children to explain a phenomenon that was “observed” 20 years earlier before their parents arrived to the US.
I can remember 1960s-1980s when Asians and blacks often would claim some shared racial oppression. The republicans made sure that they split them apart. But, I am trying to understand why liberals have simply allowed the history to be erased.
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@Kiwi
That is Yellow Peril at work – the idea that they are an alien race. See what I said under Vincent Chin.
I think you are taking your Pew Research information out of context. Perhaps it is because you were not yet here during Vincent Chin, so you can only see partially the effect that Vincent Chin had on the formation of a pan-Asian American identity.
I think that the reason that Pew Research report shows such a low % of “Asian American” identity vs. individual Asian ethnic identities is because currently many are 1st or 2nd generation and identify more with country of origin. It often will take a higher generation, or a multi-ethnic Asian American for the majority to identify as Asian American.
But Asian American was not really coined until the late 1970s and did not really start to catch on until after Vincent Chin. Prior to the mid 1970s, no one called themselves Asian American. Even when I was in High School, I had never heard of the term.
Re: Model Minority, I don’t think it was invented to divide Asians from each other, or cause them to fail to develop a collective identity as Asian, and I don’t think it is its main effect either. The purpose was to allow whites to give themselves a pass on racism. If anything, if Asian Americans DO identify with the Model Minority stereotype, then it does offer an identity to rally around — one that is not black (but “honorary white”). So the effect of the Model Minority stereotype is not so much used to divide Asians against each other, but as something that is not black. Asians (eg, the SE Asian refugees) who are poorer or in poverty and more dependent on social welfare are somehow closer to blacks (in the minds of whites).
Anyhow, that does not explain why Republicans and white liberals have reacted differently to the Model Minority stereotype.
Republicans still acknowledge that Asians are a racial minority, but one used as a model to explain black pathologies and to demonstrate that whites are not racist. Once racist laws and practices were lifted, Asian Americans “joined the American society”. White liberals do not even seem to consider Asian Americans to be an authentic racial minority and relabelled them as honourary whites. They do not use Asian Americans to explain black pathologies, which, in their mind, result from being a helpless darkie (with white liberals as their saviours).
So both Republicans and white liberals believe that Asian Americans do not suffer racism, but for different reasons. The former believe it is due to their values and family structure; the latter because they are not victims of racism.
Neither Republicans nor white liberals could stomach an Asian American president.
Both Republicans and white liberals see Asian Americans as foreigners with language problems (which blacks don’t have).
The only explanation I can find why white liberals have chosen to rewrite the Asian American historical narrative is to avoid creating a cognitive dissonance in their psyche. Jim Crow couldn’t have possibly applied to Asian Americans — otherwise they would be discriminated against TODAY in the same way that blacks are.
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@Kiwi,
I summarized my theory of the relationship between Yellow Peril and Model Minority to create the “Bamboo Ceiling” phenomenon here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/vincent-chin/#comment-253919
This is not how I see it.
I think white guilt came WAY before model minority. White guilt has been around forever (at least since colonial times), but especially since the 19th century. Why did they have to rewrite the interpretation of the Bible to excuse slavery and Jim Crow? to assuage their guilt.
They even used the Bible to excuse the atrocities to wipe out Native Americans and cleanse itself of its Asian population. Talk about guilt.
I disagree that white guilt is not also aimed at Asians. It is clearly aimed at Asians. The concept of Model Minority was created at a time when whites were well aware that they wronged Asian Americans for over a century prior to the coinage of the term. The Japanese American Internment and the prior racist immigration and naturalization laws were very FRESH in their minds when that term was coined. In fact, we could say that Model Minority was created to assuage white guilt towards BOTH Asians and Blacks, by making not about white racism, but about culture, family, values, etc. that have nothing to do with white racism.
But 48 years after the concept of Model minority was formed, and some 30 years after it was promoted in full force, the generation that has grown up under model minority does not even know where it came from. It clearly arose to mitigate the cognitive dissonance arising from white American guilt, making it about something else.
Republicans have retained much of the original political philosophy of Model Minority. White Liberals are drawn to the White Saviour trope, forcing them to rewrite the Model Minority Stereotype in their image – you are either a helpless darkie, or you are more or less like a white person, hence “honourary white”. Heck, don’t even stop there, erase Asian American history altogether and replace it with a new narrative that does not make you feel guilty.
How can you feel guilty about a history that no longer exists? It is similar to how whites have rewritten Native American history – to remove their guilt.
“Whites killed Native Americans for their land? Nah, they just died off from natural causes – nothing could have been done about it.”
What makes you think that either take on Model minority is not an effort by whites to assuage white guilt? White guilt towards BOTH blacks and Asians.
If you talk to white liberals, they admit their white guilt towards blacks (and how they need a white saviour), but they chose to have amnesia towards their guilt about Asians (by rewriting their history).
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@Kiwi,
Well, I am sure you noted that this post by Abagond has been up for over 6 years. Even he knew well before that time that the Model Minority stereotype was an artificial concoction cooked up by whites.
I even remember when that Time Magazine article came out – that was in 1987, just when the stereotype got another boost and took a life of its own.
What kind of effect did it have on you once you learned that wasn’t a fact of life at all, but a tool to diffuse white guilt and to show how whites are not racist?
Abagond noted that the Model Minority stereotype came out way too soon after immigration reform, and actually before the provisions were enacted (in 1968) to be attributed to anything created by brain drain immigrants. I don’t see how anyone could have predicted the future, but they could have used that to formulate policy.
I do believe that the Model Minority stereotype was created at least in part as a backlash against Affirmative Action and any black militant violence. I am not sure that Immigration reform was, however. My understanding was that it was done more in tandem with civil rights reform, not as a backlash to protest or guard against it.
I was not old enough to understand any of the rhetoric behind immigration reform at the time. Maybe you would like to investigate about it?
Also, I was just wondering how it must feel to suddenly learn all this stuff about Asian American issues at this stage in your life. Are you starting to question all of the “facts of life” you were taught growing up? Are you now more sensitive to sweeping generalizations about blacks or Asians?
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@Kiwi
Before now, where did you think they came from?
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But Asians will never get closer than the Jews so long as whites are racist: unlike Jews, Asians cannot hide where they came from.
———————————————————————————————-
To a “well trained eye”, neither can Jews; but I digress.
An important distinction separating Asians is their worship tradition; specifically their lack of the Abrahamic connection of Muslims, Jews and Christians. They may have their differences; but they all believe in a “personal God” in contrast to the Asian “impersonal supernatural force” type religion/s which dominate their societies.
Their religions may end up being more difficult for people to accept than their color.
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@ thwack
What you say is not true of most Asian Americans. Only 27% belong to a non-Abrahamic faith. Compare that to 42% who are Christian.
http://www.pewforum.org/2012/07/19/asian-americans-a-mosaic-of-faiths-religious-affiliation/
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Kiwi,
Asian Americans are not overwhelming non-Christian. As abagond reminded us, almost half are Christian.
Among first generation immigrants, (esp. Filipinos and Koreans) many were Christian even before arriving to the USA.
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Kiwi
In America, Christianity is seen as a white religion, so being Christian helps you fit in and gain some acceptance by whites.
——————————————————————————————–
So why do white people accept Christ?
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I think the omnipresent white mainstream sociocultural consciousness pushes stereotypes about minorities so hard because stereotypical POC are the end result of extreme social engineering designed to keep America a place for and by white people. Many Asians are generally more educated and more successful because the immigration policy from Asia to America is extremely strict and selective usually only allowing monied and or educated Asians to be able to relocate here and survive. There were widespread exceptions like allowing Cambodian refugees to relocate here. Unlike Central American Latinos, poor Asians in Asia just can’t hop a fence to get here to America. All of the tens of millions of dirt poor uneducated Asians who sew together all of your clothes and assemble all of your plastic toys, trinkets and gadgets have no way to get to America.
Similarly, stereotypes of blacks come from social conditioning caused by oppression. Black stereotypical behavior is the end result of deindustrialization, white flight from inner cities, structural unemployment with blacks at the short end of the stick, pumping tons of guns, alcohol and foreign hard drugs into inner city black enclaves, the encouragement of a welfare dependent state to fund this mayhem and the war on drugs movement to create a new slavery through mass incarceration of black men, and the commoditization of a violent Gangsta Rap culture making heroes out of alleged ex-drug dealers like Jay-Z.
But I think anywhere a minority population is very small, they tend to be stereotypical because of all the social engineering at work. I live out here on the East Coast and most Asians are Korean business owners who own every liquor store, deli and laundromat from the hood to the suburbs or they are highly educated professionals. Asians out here do not live in the city unless they are yuppie gentrifiers. There are no poor ghettoized heavily Asian areas out here. This is because it takes so much money, perseverance and or education for Asians to get all the way out here to the East Coast.
It’s not like that where I’m from In California. California is the most open entry point for Asians in America and always has been. In CA, you see the whole spectrum of Asian American life from wealthy to middle class and suburban to extremely poor and ghettoized in the inner city. Where I’m from in the Bay Area, some of the worst inner city neighborhoods are heavily to majority Asian American (i.e. Funktown in Oakland, the Tenderloin in San Francisco) with all the same social ills that plague all black inner city areas in DC, Detroit and Chicago. And in terms of Asian Americans, this goes for nearly every urban area in the state of California from Long Beach to Fresno to Stockton.
It’s the same with blacks where I live now in the DC area. You have the full spectrum of black life from rich to middle class to poor. And I will to tell you, it sucks to be a POC in an area of the country where people of your background are generally stereotypical. Where I’m from in San Francisco, the tiny black population is extremely stereotypical because after waves of gentrification, the only remaining blacks in SF reside in deteriorating housing projects in neighborhoods like Hunter’s Point, Sunnydale and Oceanview. There is no black middle class to speak of in SF. Although blacks are less than 10% of SF’s population, they often represent up to 50-60%+ percent of the homicide victims every year. If that isn’t social engineering at work, I don’t know what is…
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@Lunatic Village
I so happen to live in the east coast myself and what you say about Asians is really heavily dependant on where you are living. I have ran into many educated Asians, but I have also ran into many under-educated Asians making a living through the liquor stores etc. All so they can send their kids to good schools etc.
“There are no poor ghettoized heavily Asian areas out here.”—That really depends on where you look in the east coast. Most Asian centered churches are actually located in the ghetto here. Many don’t live far from their churches, but many do keep to themselves.
“This is because it takes so much money, perseverance and or education for Asians to get all the way out here to the East Coast.”—That would hold a lot more weight if I have not seen different. AS I stated I have seen many Asians trying to make ends meet like everyone else. They are not professionals and they do not have a pile of money somewhere. In fact many are working low wage jobs and saving money just to help their family members get to them.
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@ sharinair
But in California in many urban areas throughout the state, the level of oppression and ghettoization of Asian Americans actually mirrors that of black and Latinos. Oppression of Asians in California goes back over a hundred years to the Chinese Exclusion Acts. In California, marriage between Asians and whites was outlawed for about just as long as black-white marriage was outlawed in the South.
Many urban areas in California like Long Beach and Fresno have long documented problems with Asian gangs like Tiny Raskals and Asian Boyz. Asian gangs are much fewer and far between and less visible out here on the East Coast compared to California which is the American mecca for gang culture, period.
If you go to some of the worst neighborhoods in the Bay Area, blacks, Latinos and Asians live together and get along and also the bad apples engage in criminal behavior together. There is no real hardline racial tension between blacks, Latinos and Asians in many of the worst urban neighborhoods in Northern California. For instance, the murder of an 18 year old Vietnamese man, Nguyen Ngo a.k.a. “Lil Nguyen”, who was a high ranking member of the North Oakland “Ice City” gang in 2009 sparked an ongoing years long gang war between racially mixed majority-black turf gangs along the North Oakland and South Berkeley border.
I have not seen this dynamic in any city on the East Coast. Cities on the East Coast are much more segregated than any Northern California metro area from a statistical standpoint. NYC, Philly, Baltimore, DC and Newark have all made the top 20 most segregated cities list. New York City is one of the most segregated cities in America.
Spike Lee’s obsession with race and uneasy racial tensions in New York City in almost all of his movies has a basis in reality. Where I live in between DC and Baltimore, Asians are barely statistically significant in the cities. Baltimore is like 2% Asian, DC is like 3%. This is different than most Bay Area cities where Asians constitute almost a full fifth of the population for almost every major city. SF is 32% Asian, Oakland is about 16% Asian and Vallejo is 21% Asian. So you don’t even really have the diversity of urban vs. suburban Asians where I live in the Baltimore-Washington corridor. Most Asians out here where I live did not grow up in the city out here. This is because East Coast cities outside of NYC are not an entry point for Asian Americans. In DC, blacks stick with blacks and whites stick with whites no matter what economic level. Baltimore has some black-white integration in South Baltimore in places like Pigtown, but that’s where racial integration ends.
But Asians out here on the East Coast are seen as perpetual outsiders and more viewed through the one-dimensional lens of stereotypes. This is because Asian immigration to the East Coast is a much newer phenomena compared to Asian immigration to California which goes back well over a hundred years. As it stands, one full third of all Asian Americans are concentrated in the state of California.
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@Lunatic Village
I can not attest to what life is like for Asians in California, which is why I focused on what I know of them on the East coast. I can only take your word for it in regards to California, but what I have said still stands in regards to the east coast.
“I have not seen this dynamic in any city on the East Coast.”—I greatly wager you have not been to every city in the east coast, but if you want to get technical you were claiming what life is like for Asians in the East coast based on what you claimed to have seen not what life was like for Asians in east coast cities. It might actually pain you to know I have several Asian friends on the East coast and some actually so happen to live in NYC and they are not the type of Asians you claim they should be. They struggle. Plus I live here on the east coast, so what I see everyday paints a different picture.
“Cities on the East Coast are much more segregated than any Northern California metro area from a statistical standpoint. “—That is grand, but I don’t really care if they are segregated or not. What I addressed you on is above and all the rest of what you are bringing in is a deflection from that very point. If I disagree with anything you say I will simply quote you and address to avoid major confusion. So far what you claim to be the Asian lifestyle is dependent on the area and is not what I see where I live or have seen in my travels up and down the east coast.
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@Lunatic Village,
I could tell you were from near DC even before you mentioned it by your description of what you are observing. But, to some extent, you might also be making broad generalizations about what you are seeing today, and filling the blanks with stereotypes.
I guessed instantly you lived near DC when you mentioned how Korean owned businesses string out from the “inner city” all the way to outer suburbs.
I spent my early childhood in Anacostia in SE DC, but grew up in Prince George’s County – places you should recognize if you are between DC and Baltimore. So, I experienced the gamut from poor black ghetto to upper middle class black suburb. But my father’s family came from Asia and I also worked in Asian owned businesses and attended both white and Asian churches in the area. I also went to university in Boston area and lived in New York City for many years. Having said that, most of the relatives on my father’s side live in California, and in the Deep South on my mother’s side (esp. Alabama). But now I live in Asia.
I know and remember the evolution of the East Coast black and Asian neighborhoods back to the 1960s-90s.
Asians have been living on the East Coast to a significant extent since the 1870s-1880s. Chinese were imported to Boston to break a strike by Irish-Americans in 1875. Chinatowns formed in New York, Boston, Providence, Baltimore, Washington, DC, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and they were all active until at least the 1970s. New York City (both the city itself and the greater metropolitan area) has more Asians than any US city (including LA and SF, and greater LA and bay area respectively), and the most ethnic Chinese (in both the city and metro area) of any city outside Asia, including Vancouver, Toronto, Sydney.
The numbers are by no means small. and New York city has been the destination of choice for many Asians from Asia for the last 2 decades, especially Mainland Chinese.
Asians also formed communities in the Deep South since the 1870s, particular around Augusta, GA and across the Mississippi River Delta in Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana. Their numbers were never that large, but their history there goes almost back all the way to the Civil War.
Also, as I worked in a Chinese restaurant that employed people from Vietnam and Cambodia, and attended a church that had people from Laos, I got to know them well, lived in the same house with them, attended their weddings and visited their homes (metro DC/MD/VA area). There are still many of them spread along the East Coast. I also was very involved in Filipino communities in metro DC and New York / New Jersey.
I also worked in a garment factory in NY’s Chinatown in Manhattan. There is also a whole gamut from poor “inner city” poverty, struggling Fujian migrants to Taiwanese brain drain families and Mainland Chinese families with money. At the same time, I also know 6th and 7th generation Asian Americans on the East Coast. I also volunteered in Boston’s Chinatown when I went to university there, so I learned a lot about the communities there too.
As Kiwi mentioned, there is plenty of Asian poverty in New York, but also Boston and Philly as well.
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I can see why you might come to the conclusions about Asian American communities on the East Coast. Until the early 1970s, Asians were generally not welcome in white neighborhoods – maybe even more so on the East Coast than on the West Coast (but I know it happened on the West Coast too – many have told me and I have read about it). But the post 1970s landscape changed completely as the brain drain families came in and settled directly into the suburbs, and whites welcomed Asians in their neighborhoods before they welcomed blacks. Refugee Asians tended to settle in neighborhoods on the fringes of black and Latino neighborhoods. Perhaps one of the reasons why poorer Asian neighborhoods stick out so much in the SF Bay Area (and not so much in the mid-Atlantic region) is because there are, relatively speaking, so much fewer blacks compared to DC / Baltimore. Poor Asians might even outnumber blacks in metro SF. That would be impossible in DC / Baltimore.
Given the high number of blacks in DC and Baltimore, we also see more Asian businesses in those neighborhoods. Prior to the 1960s-70s, there were more blacks in the South than in the North, and many businesses serving blacks in the Deep South were run by either Chinese or by ethnic (ie, “not quite white”) whites, such as Jews, Syrians, Lebanese, etc. When blacks moved up North, it was also about the time that the immigration laws were relaxed. Post 1970s, that niche has largely been held by non-brain drain Fujian Chinese and esp. Korean immigrants.
I think the reason why you might come to the conclusions about Asian Americans in the East Coast is because they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by blacks. Whites see Asians as somehow, not as threatening to their neighborhoods and institutions as they see blacks. It also explains why we see such a large number of Asian businesses in black neighborhoods in the East – Whites have a strong need to avoid black neighborhoods, whereas Asian immigrants are not as affected by white social mores and are there to make money.
On the West Coast, Asians outnumber blacks, so West Coast whites DO feel more threatened by Asians there. They may tend to avoid living in, or hanging out in places with large numbers of Asians, and we will find a larger variety of majority Asian neighborhoods. Whites feel even more threatened by Latinos in the West coast than the East Coast. They do feel more threatened by blacks, perhaps, but because of the lower numbers, it is easier to keep them locked in ghettos. But, as you know in Maryland, blacks exist in large numbers not only in DC and Baltimore, but across Prince George’s, Charles, Anne Arundel and Baltimore counties, whites cannot simply lock them into ghettos, so whites in Montgomery and Howard counties need to let in more Asians to “keep the blacks out”. They are still being used as a wedge.
Hence, whites perpetuate the Model Minority Stereotype precisely to control race relations. States like Maryland are probably a prime example.
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@Sharina,
I agree with you. Lunatic Village does not seem to have experienced the gamut of Asian American life in the East Coast. Maybe he is trying to make sense of what he is seeing where he lives in suburban central Maryland. But, I have witnessed the poverty that the Vietnamese / Cambodian / Laotian immigrants and their families experience in the East Coast, and also the poor economic migrants from Guangdong and Fujian provinces, as well as the struggling Korean small business owners. I have even been to their homes and attended their social functions. I know it is very much there.
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@ Jefe
I think it may be a common idea that Asians are living good on the East Coast. I don’t think people are even aware that they live in poverty in the slightest. Even I don’t have a full grasp on the extent of it.
I can relate to what Lunatic Village says in regards to Koreans. Here they own the majority of Asian grocery stores. We have one owned by a Chinese family, but arguably in a more upscale shopping area.
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@ jefe
You have no idea how bad Asian American poverty and ghettoization is on the West Coast. In almost every major Californian city and metro area there is an area that is heavily Asian where you can’t hang out on the block unless you have a gun on you at all times and are willing to use it. Name one high crime impoverished heavily Asian American community on the East Coast outside of NYC Chinatown. *crickets*
Here are a few from the Bay Area:
http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Highland-Park-Oakland-CA.html
http://www.point2homes.com/US/Neighborhood/CA/Oakland/Lynn-Highland-Park-Demographics.html
http://www.city-data.com/neighborhood/Tenderloin-San-Francisco-CA.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/14/turk-street-warzone-violent-crime_n_899427.html
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Every city in California has the full spectrum of Asian American wealth to ghettoized poverty. That does NOT exist in every city on the East Coast. Asians are statistically insignificant in DC and Baltimore as far as the cities goes. Asians in Baltimore and DC are homogenous in being Korean liquor store, deli and laundromat owners. The very few Southeast Asians in Maryland live in the suburbs and are not highly ghettoized to high crime inner city areas like they are in California. I’ve heard that the areas around Boston have some Asian gangs but that’s about it. The East Coast has more white trash ghettoization that Asian ghettoization. I’ve lived in Maryland since the 90’s. There is not a single ghettoized Asian American neighborhood in DC or Baltimore or the entire DC-Baltimore region. You fail jefe.
Literally every major city in California has Asian American ghettoization. In San Francisco, you have the Tenderloin as well as understated Asian poverty in Chinatown. Even Chinatown has historic issues with Asian gangs, poverty and crime (i.e. Golden Dragon massacre, Wah Ching etc.). But even the worst neighborhoods in SF have sizable Asian American populations like the infamous Double Rock projects in Hunter’s Point and Sunnydale as well as where I was raised in the Oceanview district. Oakland has much Asian American ghettoization. Many blocks in the 20’s and 30’s in Oakland are majority Asian and the Asian Americans there embrace the same self-destructive ghetto culture of gun violence, drug dealing and alcoholism as the blacks and Latinos they live around. You have entire housing projects like Oak Park in East Oakland that are majority Cambodian American in residency. San Jose has much Asian American ghettoization in the East Side with much Southeast Asian gangs. Even Richmond has many ghettoized Asians and a history of Asian American gangs (i.e. Sons of Death). This is because every city in the Bay Area is nearly a fifth Asian in demographics. Stockton has it’s issues with Asian gangs. Same with Sacramento. The “California Killing Fields” episode of Gangland detailed the rough life of Tiny Raskals Cambodian gangs in Fresno. Long Beach is the Tigris and Euphrates of Asian American gang culture.
If you never lived in California, your perspective of Asian American life, as a whole, is incomplete. A full third of Asian Americans live in California. That’s like a non-black person from Portland trying to speak on black America as a whole based on deceiving statistics that paint blacks in a negative light. So it’s disgusting to see Asians being painted so one dimensionally by anyone non-Asian.
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@SanFranpsycho415
I have to ask if you meant for your comment to go to Jefe or someone else.
You do realize that Jefe is part asian right? And who painted asians as one dimensional? He made this comment about the west coast (which is not just California) ” we will find a larger variety of majority Asian neighborhoods.” That does not indicate a one dimensional view.
The majority of the comments focused on east coast Asians and differences depending on area.
I could be wrong, but poor does not equal ghetto or ghettoization as you call it. Over the years people have used this interchangeably, but they are not.
This is poor: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_110KgBgA9pU/TB7d3IS5bSI/AAAAAAAACQ4/c3nGzorI9Zg/s1600/Garden+District+Part+II+013.jpg
This is the Ghetto:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0h-ePETl1S0/UmCNkLvTEyI/AAAAAAAACZ0/Y7H1TocI3UM/s1600/slums.PNG
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update revisit to the Model Minority Stereotype featuring an interview with Frank Wu
Why Do We Call Asian Americans the Model Minority?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrDbvSSbxk8)
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Adam Ruins Everything dispels the Model Minority Myth, that it was a made-up story cooked up by the US government to cut out affirmative action and social programs.
The Twisted Truth Behind the “Model Minority” Stereotype
(https://youtu.be/Wti3_cXeF4k)
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