“The Irish had it hard too” is a common White racist argument. It points out that the Irish once had it just as bad if not worse than Black Americans: slavery, genocide, poverty, prejudice, stereotypes, job discrimination, etc.
They are not making it up:
- In the 1500s and 1600s, the horror show of British settler colonialism made its worldwide debut in Ireland. The Irish were driven off their land, massacred, scalped, sent to Barbados and elsewhere as slaves, seen as “savages”, seen as less than human.
- In the 1800s, when they began to arrive in numbers in the US, they were called “niggers turned inside out”. They were stereotyped as being lazy, given to drink, lacking in self-control, as being little better than beasts. In the South they were given work that even slaves would not be made to do because it was too dangerous. Want ads said, “No Irish need apply.”
All true.
What makes the argument racist is when these facts are used to suggest that what Blacks have gone through and are going through is not racism, but just classism or just man’s plain old inhumanity to man. Blacks just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
What that argument leaves out is that the Irish got to where they are – because of racism. They did not suffer from hundreds of years of slavery – because they were White. They could vote by the 1860s, not the 1960s – because they were White. They easily qualified for the Homestead Act, the G.I. Bill and FHA loans – because they were White. They could live in nice neighbourhoods and go to nice schools – because they were White.
They were not always “White”. Certainly not in the 1600s. Even in the early 1800s, not everyone in the US saw them as fully White. But by the late 1800s, Whiteness in the US had been enlarged to include them.
There is another way this argument is used. By Irish Americans. They sometimes use it to wash their hands of the racist ills of US society. Do not buy it:
The incomplete list of racist stuff Irish Americans took part in without batting an eye:
- Manifest Destiny,
- race riots,
- support for the Chinese Exclusion Act,
- shutting Blacks out of labour unions and jobs,
- White flight,
- opposition to school desegregation,
- Fox News.
The oppressed has turned oppressor.
It was not Ireland that made them that way. It was the US.
Noel Ignatiev, who wrote “How the Irish Became White” (1995), noted:
In 1841, 60,000 Irish in Ireland issued an address to their compatriots in America, calling upon them to join with the abolitionists in the struggle against slavery. Six months after the address, the abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison wrote what may be the saddest words ever written about the Irish diaspora:
“Even to this hour, not a single Irishman has come forward, either publicly or privately, to express his approval of the address, or to avow his determination to abide by its sentiments.”
Thanks to Linda for the Ignatiev article.
– Abagond, 2015.
Sources: “Race in North America” (2012) by Audrey Smedley and Brian D. Smedley; Noel Ignatiev (2010); “A Different Mirror” (2008) by Ronald Takaki; “Black Identities: West Indian Immigrant Dreams and American Realities” (1999) by Mary C. Waters.
See also:
- Know-Nothing Party
- Posts where this argument is used:
- by The Economist (2014)
- by Robert Kennedy (1963)
- related forms of moral blindness:
- Racist stuff that Irish Americans took part in:
- Ireland: a brief history
- White American racism: the 1500s
- The Third Enlargement of American Whiteness
619
I love this entry! I’m so tired of other white people assuming I agree with them on their insistence that Irish had it equally bad as blacks or indiginous people in America. I always want to say, “Sure, for a little while. But no one treats Irish now the way minority populations STILL are discriminated against constantly in this country.” I guess they think that because I “look” Irish, I must agree with their bs. Sure, I fit the physical stereotype (red hair, ruddy but super pale, tons of freckles, short and muscular, can hold my Jameson). But I’m 1/8 Irish and don’t think it makes a damn but of difference. I grew up with privilege simply by being perceived white. If anything, being Irish in this country (especially in the Northeast) is favored by a lot of super racist jackasses these days. Yikes.
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Lordy Mirky is going to hate this post.
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“…I promise I’ll be back tomorrow morning with a full rebuttal.”
No doubt, with even more strange talk about Republicans, Democrats, corporations and Catholics!
I can hardly wait!! rotflol
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The post on the Boston Busing riots is long overdue. I remember vividly my encounters with Irish-Americans in Boston in the late 70s.
Admittedly, in 20th century white racist phenomena such as blockbusting, some of the Irish-Americans also ended up being victims of being forced out of their houses and giving them up to blacks. They would have been a more likely target for blockbusting than a non-Irish Anglo neighborhood. However, one may also argue that it was their racism against blacks that caused that exodus (and hence that victimization) in the first place. After that white flight, they were among the ones who were most opposed to desegregation.
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Thanks for information abagond. I will read more about this. People usually think that racism is about skin color but its mostly about power reserved and monopolized by a group with the same skin color.
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@Pumpkin:
Abagond touched on that idea here:
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It has always baffled me how some people don’t understand that someone can be victim and perpetrator at the same time.
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@ mike4ty4 – Thanks for saving everyone the trouble.
But yes, what power cannot conquer it assimilates – what it cannot assimilate it seeks to destroy.
(But I ain’t hatin’ on the Irish (from Ireland) – Bobby Sands was the MAN.)
And LoM – Don’t even try. This post (and the related link) just killed any retort you could muster.
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Here’s your thread lotr!
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“Anti-Irish racism is very much relevant today.”—For starters your source did not show it as relevant today in the United states. It only pointed to slight racial stereotypes that are not widely know.
Example 1: using one big Irish paw to snuff bad guys and holding the other one out to the studio for his paycheck.
Example 2: The American Christian Right have embraced and promulgated a series of bizarre theories about Ireland as the “greatest enemy of Israel in the Western world” that have gained a wide audience. In particular militant Protestant fundamentalists, some of whom have links to the separatist British Unionist minority in Ireland, have taken to the internet in their trollish droves to disgorge gigabytes of misinformation wrapped up in this conspiratorial nonsense. Regardless of fact or reason, in clear contradiction of known history, they distort, misrepresent and falsify Irish and Jewish relations to such an extent that in some quarters unbelievable lies have become accepted truths. Their falsehoods are now beginning to insinuate their way into the mainstream of American news media and politics – yet few challenge them.
The article does go on to say it was done by pure ignorance and with no serious intent of harm. To quote directly “Even when offensive stereotypes of Irish people were presented it was not always with prejudicial intent. Simple ignorance, more often than malice, was to blame when offence was given.”
In short the Irish experience little to no discrimination in the USA, but are quick to engage in the discrimination. While people such as yourself still claim to be discriminated against on the level of African Americans or black people in american.
You should have just taken Uglyblackjohn’s advice.
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Yes, Irish immigrants used to be oppressed. And in Ireland today, they still have ongoing issues with the British. But their descendants elsewhere have joined the ranks of the oppressors and are benefitting from unearned privilege, and have gained white advantages still denied to Africans and African Americans and Indigenous Americans. And those benefits still come at the expense of the racially oppressed.
Perhaps Americans of Irish extraction should move to a reservation, or a district where impoverished Black people live, and continue talking about how ‘unfair ‘and ‘oppressive’ it is to be white.
It is extremely offensive when people in this capricious “I am Irish” or “Afrikaner” or “Jewish” or “English” shape- shifting category try to claim that they don’t have white privilege or have not participated in a white supremacist society, when they are confronted with their own racism. There are quite a few people of Irish descent living in South Africa. In the South African context, there has never been recorded in the history of our country that any white (Irish) person was forced to live in a squatter camp; that their houses were razed to the ground or bulldozed and then were dumped in the middle of nowhere or received special education to the level to only serve the master, i.e. the white man, etc. etc. No Irish or Jewish person so far as any Black person knows, has been subjected to the pass laws, being made to endure life without any running water or electricity, being made to feel like non-citizens in a country that they immigrated to when apartheid was in full swing. I am unaware of any person of Irish/ German/ Jewish /English descent in South Africa that does not own more acres of land than the average Black person, who still lives in an area the size of a postage stamp. In the South African context, Irish history was not erased, but celebrated.
I think it is grotesque and monumentally repugnant of white males and females who want to own victimhood whilst being steeped in white privilege and patronizingly conflate their specific white ethnic problems within white dominance and project that onto Black people and foist upon the very people (Black people) who have absolutely nothing to do with their (Irish) past oppression, their ‘innocence and sufferance’. They then try to equate their history as similar to that of Black history, thereby relinquishing any culpability emanating from THEIR OWN oppression/racism of Black and Original People, whilst simultaneously enjoying the ill-gotten fruits of white superiority. It is that innocence that James Baldwin and Ta Nehisi- Coates writes about.
Why do they not direct their complaints of their ‘oppression’ to their fellow white Anglo-Saxon brethren? Why to Black people? Black people have never enslaved or oppressed Irish people.
Trying to garner sympathy, whilst exonerating themselves of racism, from the very people whom they oppress or derive privilege at the expense of, is morally bankrupt.
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The whole bit between
“The incomplete list of racist stuff Irish Americans took part in without batting an eye:”
and
“The oppressed has turned oppressor.”
flies directly into the face of anyone trying to purport that the Irish-Americans did not become the very perpetrators of racism for which they tried to point fingers elsewhere. In order to become a good member of standing in the White club, they had to perform some of the racist dirty work to maintain the white supremacist social order (as opposed to dismantling it) and thus, in many respects, becoming even more racially oppressive than the original English oppressors.
It is not a curious coincidence that many Irish-Americans became policemen, for example, just for the chance to put blacks in the paddywagon.
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@taotesan
Very well said.
@ Jefe
“It is not a curious coincidence that many Irish-Americans became policemen, for example, just for the chance to put blacks in the paddywagon.”–Interesting observation. I never paid much attention to this.
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If anyone wants an alternative perspective, I’d suggest What’s the Matter with White People? by Joan Walsh. She is an Irish-American writing about Irish-Americans. She does cover extensively the race issue and she makes no excuses for the history of Irish-Americans. The history, by the way, is quite fascinating, especially how it crosses over at different points with the African-American experience.
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@Benjamin David Steele
Thanks for the suggestion.
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” You want to have your cake and eat it too.”—I don’t eat cake, because of sugar and other substances that turn to fat. Plus I don’t follow Stephen Colbert or media enough to know what he did or did not do. Try again.
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@ jefe
So the Irishman learned that the best and fastest way of ascending to Whitehood was by stepping on the backs of the blacks. A lesson continuously internalized by other ethnic groups in America.
Goes to show that the black man truly has no allies, especially when they’re all intent on using him as a stepping stone towards greater aspirations.
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@sharinair
Thank you!
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@Mack Lyons,
A basic google search leads to hundreds of sources documenting the confrontation between Irish American policemen and black migrants from the South, eg,
(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/1900/filmmore/reference/interview/washing_nycityriot.html)
It is a recurring theme in US history.
This book discusses it quite a bit
What’s the Matter with White People?: Finding Our Way in the Next America
by Joan Walsh
(http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Matter-White-People-Finding/dp/1476733120)
For example, it mentions how Anglo-Americans would make use of Chinese and black workers as examples to the Irish about how to work and behave properly (and to lower wages and to break up unions and strikes and whatnot), but this did not cause the Irish in the USA to make common cause with Chinese and blacks. On the contrary, it only caused them to cement even further the racial hierarchical system in USA which puts whites on top. What better way to do that than to become part of the civil service and the police, the very systems which are there to keep the social order in place.
There is a plethora of literature on this.
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“You’re missing out.”—I hear paint drying is more thrilling.
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Mack Lyons “So the Irishman learned that the best and fastest way of ascending to Whitehood was by stepping on the backs of the blacks. A lesson continuously internalized by other ethnic groups in America.”
From what I’m seeing, this also applies to Mexicans in Amerikka. The next big voting block.
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An Addendum:
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Abagond, this is a brilliant piece, but I hope you weren’t expecting it to convince you know whom…
As you probably know by now, he’s not interested in learning or participating in fair dialogue, he’s only interested in trying to convince blacks to absolve him from the white guilt he wears on his sleeve.
Now that this article has been written, I hope we won’t continue giving him the attention he desperately craves.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
That’s a joke, right? In 1928 most Black people could not even vote. If the Irish were under Jim Crow racism in the 1920s, there would be no Al Smith as governor, much less the nominee for president of a major party.
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@Ben Munday
Isn’t that amazing? No matter where you go in the post-colonial European world, it was and is the same thing. Instead of rightfully taking back from and rejecting their oppressors, they turn against the more oppressed and aim for acceptance by their oppressors, just like the Irish did in the Americas, including you know whom…
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@ resw77
I would have written this post sooner or later, but since he is here, I wrote it sooner. Not only to get a full-throated counter-argument, but also to keep it from derailing other threads. I do not expect to persuade him: he is wilfully obtuse when he has to be to protect his self-image of White innocence.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood @ Sharina
That “brilliant” satirization was at the expense of Asian Americans:
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@sharinalr
I always enjoy writers who focus on their own social and familial experience—in terms of ethnicity, race, regon, etc.
Joan Walsh was sort of following the example of Thomas Frank’s What’s the Matter with Kansas? But Frank was concerned with the background of his state, rather than a specific ethnic group.
More in line with Walsh’s project are the writings of Joe Bageant, where he explores the world of his own people, the poor whites of West Virginia Appalachia. The largely Scots-Irish population is a related group to Irish-Americans.
As a writer and a thinker, I prefer Bageant’s perspective. I enjoy his unique take on America. But I appeciate what Walsh did with her book. She puts racial conflict into a larger historical context that offers insight.
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@abagond
I’m glad to see this article, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
” If the Irish were under Jim Crow racism in the 1920s, there would be no Al Smith as governor”
And let’s not also forget the many Irish Americans who had no problems passing for white before then.
– Charles Carroll had no problems with discrimination when he signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776
– Andrew Jackson passed for white to become president in 1829, and massacred and removed native Americans and African Americans (not to mention the many other Irish-American presidents who somehow passed for white like James Polk, James Buchannan, Ulysses Grant).
– John McCausland was white enough to becoem a confederate general
– And the many Irish-Americans who were white enough to be elected to high office, like McKinley, Kennedy, Reagan despite wearing their Irish heritage on their sleeve
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Hence Tom Cruise’s character in “Far & Away”. “Where’s that crazy Mick?” Tom Cruise goes into the mines to light up the dynamite manually and get his ass out of there before it blows.
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@abagond
Thanks. Now I remember that post.
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Oh Geez, anybody who claims it wasn’t racist at all is blind as a bat or has a severe double moral standard.
If Irish were as sincerely persecuted as one may suggest, then the the Irish should have been the go-to group for this kind of stuff. Only thing is, Colbert knows that THAT is not funny.
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Oh! Scotch-irish … which i am 25% … lord, i had some one roundly thrash me for wearing a macgregor tartan tie to work, clan of traitors or something like that, basically its protestant irish, my mom and dad’s neighbors before i was born were irish and wouldnt talk to my folks once they heard they were scotch-irish
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‘Far and Away’ is good movie with some significant history (in small bits). The Great Oklahoma Land Rush of 1893 benefited a whole lot of Irish-Americans and a handful of Black Americans (literally). There is a difference, y’all!
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Angela’s Ashes movie
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Hey, since someone brought up a BOOK “What’s the Matter With White People”, can we bring up “What’s the Matter With BLACK People”? Noone’s had the temerity to write a book against a politically protected class, but Yahoo has some good answers.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090416161437AAnh8tW
Look at the last sentence of the top answer:
And it is nobody’s fault, but theirs, that people view them this way.
Why should whites give up “unearned privilege” but Blacks don’t want to give up unearned political protections, and admit that much of their reputation is very heavily earned?
Who fights to keep the race section IN employment applications? Couldn’t have anything to do with the Affirmative Action cheat, could it?
Whites who bemoan White Privilege (Tim Wise is a big one), are treated like enlightened gurus, but what do THEY really give up? They’re rich enough that anything taken from whites, they can buy for themselves. The closer you get to the thugs, the less you can afford–literally–to be that naive and liberal.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyqAH_TYCj8)
Look at Addlespurger, “Gee, those thugs look dangerous but going to ignore my ‘racist’ survival impulse and walk on by them! They will surely not attack me!”
How did that turn out for him again?
But on the other hand, anyone who points out Blacks’ systemic flaws, like Tommy Sotomayor, is reviled as if he committed treason, heresy, and I don’t know, child-molestation all at the same time.
Why the double-standard?
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@taotesean: “Drop the mike” Well said.
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Bill O’Riilley is one racist pusbag. He is very hateful.
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Bill O’Reilly is a huge racist and he also doesn’t believe in white privilege.
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My dad’s family supposedly is from county cork, i was baptized catholic but confirmed episcopal but i turned ny eyes from the ploughshare
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*my
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All my grandparents i think were off the boat ellis island in the 1910s+? My brother is doing all that research
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In most movies and television shows they are portrayed as a huge family/clan and they are always Catholic the family occupation is policeman and one sibling is usually a priest or maybe a nun. Someone always owns a bar and they are portrayed as drunkards. And they are portrayed as having “Irish tempers.” The women are always characters with red hair and fiery tempers.
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v8driver said “Oh! Scotch-irish … which i am 25%”
I’m part Scotch-Irish too !!! I knew we were bros. We can pretend that we are mutually oppressed and have nothing to do with all these other white people. You know. The real racists.
Ever notice how white people like to talk about the percentage’s their whiteness ? It’s like a scientific formula that resembles a latte from Starbucks.
Soy if your a vegetarian.
I’m an 1/8 this and a quarter that and if accused of racism theirs always a mostly white Cherokee grandmother in their somewhere.
They like exotic whiteness like being “Welsh” or “Basque”.
The Irish learned quickly how to assimilate, in part through the political system as Abagond has pointed out, and in part because their whiteness allowed them.
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@Michael Jon Barker
“Ever notice how white people like to talk about the percentage’s their whiteness ? It’s like a scientific formula that resembles a latte from Starbucks.
Soy if your a vegetarian.”
Lolest. You made my day.
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Well im also british this irish guy told me that must be like hitting yourself in the head all the time and with whether hispanic is a race and idk i have type of rudimentary celtic pride its just the irish thread and yeah? We tend to self identify pennsylvania dutch, irish, etc etc idk why tribes or whatever
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And some starbucks have better $5 coffee than others
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To clarify it wasn’t my intent to embarrass V8driver but poke fun at Mirkwood’s reasoning and white people in general.
It seems we have a new troll hitting different threads and my other account here attached tp FB has been thrown into moderation probably because of the language I used in addressing him.
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@Michael Barker
The new troll is looking for attention. Half the stuff he says he can not refute. Sad really.
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@Sharinair,
Now that I’ve calmed down I realize that.
It sucks when people bring ugliness to thus blog.
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Lord of Mirkwood said
Irish freedom fighters get reviled by the world as “terrorists” yet people cheer when Black Panthers do the same thing.
Is this true?
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Omnipresent
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6460/
“The only good pig is a dead pig” applied to cops sounds like a terrorist slogan to me, but the Black Panthers were cheered for “protecting thugs from police brutality”, when they were really attacking the cops.
Statements by Panther leaders and remarks in their newspaper would seem to leave little doubt that the Panthers attempt to encourage physical attacks on police.
A Black Panther bigwig was recently on TV, had a good laugh that they would provoke the cops, and if the cops fought back, they were “just defending themselves” against the angry (and obviously evil) cops!
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@ Melanie: Comment deleted for use of moderated language.
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EPGAH
I probably should have been clearer but in saying that people cheered for the Black Panthers LoM is implying that people in general support when the Black Panthers do ‘terrorist’ activities. So, who are these people? My question was not whether Black Panthers were terrorists nor what their philosophy is but surely, the whole reason for this association forming was in response to perpetual violence and continued subjugation committed against black people at that time.
A Black Panther bigwig was recently on TV, had a good laugh that they would provoke the cops, and if the cops fought back, they were “just defending themselves” against the angry (and obviously evil) cops!
don’t you find this eerie – back in the 60’s and 70’s the Black Panthers were being gunned down by cops and now, it seems there is a free for all in terms of police who are still slaying black people in 2015. It is entirely possible that SOME cops are essentially bad no matter what decade – isn’t it?
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Omnipresent
And what about the murders of cops, from the two assassinated in their car, to the one ambushed at the gas station, to the one stabbed&thrown over the causeway.
http://twitchy.com/2015/09/03/war-on-cops-female-officer-in-penn-assaulted-and-thrown-over-guardrail-after-stopping-to-help-disabled-vehicle/
Don’t worry, she LIVED, but I’d say we have a war on COPS, not a war on thugs starting fights with cops. Or did she “deserve” it for helping a “disabled” vehicle with a criminal in it?
Yes, SOME cops might be bad, but remember, Black Panthers were intentionally starting fights with cops, so that win or lose, the COPS were the bad guys. Intellectually dishonest, sure, but EXTREMELY effective.
“Black Panthers were being gunned down by cops” BECAUSE THEY ATTACK COPS! If someone attacks you, you should fight back, right? Or are you advocating a special exception for Black thugs attacking cops? Are you one of “those people” supporting Black Panthers’ terrorism on cops? (Just a few decades late?)
What about when Black thugs attack civilians, AKA the Joe Horn case?
What about the NEW Black Panthers, supposedly entirely different from the OLD Black Panthers, but already put a bounty on the head of a civilian for defending himself from a thug, and have political protection from no less august a person than the Attorney General!
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970203550604574361071968458430
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party_voter_intimidation_case
Some people more conspiratorial than myself believe the Black Panthers were setup by the Government.
1.) By OUR Government, to “prove” that Blacks are the violent monsters we need State protection from. There are a lot of mentions about prison-industrial conspiracies on this site already.
2.) To be violent monsters pushing Communism, and even if they fail to takeover America, then at least weaken America from within.
Black Panthers, IRA, PLA, ANC, ZANU, ALL have funding and training from Mother Russia to weaken and destabilize their hosts. Some have actually successfully OVERTHROWN their hosts, much to chagrin and death of the civilians!
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OFF TOPIC: Black Panthers
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@ Pumpkin
No.
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Abagond: The comparison was explicitly Black Panther terrorism vs. IRA terrorism. Why is one fair, the other foul? It is a thing that must be addressed.
Terrorism instead of outright warfare is bad, no matter what lofty goals it claims to be for. Especially when terrorists whine when they get hit back!
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@ EPGAH
Your comment had little to do with the Irish. Keep it on topic.
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Ahhh, The Irish had it bad too counter. That is one dead horse well-beaten!
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The Irish who became the Irish “Republican” Army, like the Blacks who became the Black Panthers, considered themselves “victims”, but rather than leave or try to change themselves–like maybe OBEY THE LAWS?–they accepted armament, training, and organization from Mother Russia to overthrow the authority that “oppressed” them.
The IRA, though, were much better at it, including near-kidnappings of Princess Anne in 1974, and Prince Edward in 1922! PLUS the successful assassination of Earl Louis Mountbatten in 1979! Congratulations, they killed a 79-year-old man! Sadly, they also killed his grandson, and some other random people, but they said it’s OK because it was a “Noble Struggle to drive the British out of our land”™!
The worst part is, it was at his OWN REQUEST that he and his boat not be guarded, which allowed them to get the bomb in! The leading theory is that the terrorists planted a bomb in one of his lobster traps designed to go off when it is exposed to air.
They arrested two IRA terrorists that lived closest and “happened” to be bomb mechanics–and found seawater and nitroglycerine in their clothes, using a primitive version of CSI techniques! (State Of The Art AT THE TIME!)
Read all about it in Edward Mickolous’s “50 Worst Terrorist Attacks”!
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Applause for this article, this sums up the “Irish-Were-Also-Persecuted” bullshi# argument succintly! This should be referred to for future reference the next time one o’ their supporters tries to bring up this weak “counterpoint” in an effort to silence those who are Still actively oppressed on much larger scale. Sidenote: Even a former Irish landlord of mine would largely agree with this article’s sentiment-as he liked to say to me (whilst I rolled my eyes), “America is the greatest country in the world, and there is no other place that I’d rather live”. I noted that with his blue eyes, ruddy (pale) complexion, and blondish hair how could he not love his preferential treatment here”? He looked pensive for a brief sec, and then shrugged and agreed with me..just sayin’..
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P.S. He is originally from Ireland, so he does have the perspective of being Irish and American (for comparison’s sake)..
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Did he live through the “No Irish Need Apply” thing? And do you believe “No Irish Need Apply” because Americans changed, or because Irish became less violent and less crime-prone, therefore more acceptable?
Whether America is the greatest country in the world or not, even those who complain loudest about its “inequalities”, from you to Tim Wise or Noam Chomsky, have not found anywhere else THEY’D rather be either. Preferably a country with REAL inequalities and oppressions they could “fix” rather than nitpicking America to death?
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Correction: Do you believe “No Irish Need Apply” WENT AWAY because Americans changed, or because Irish became less violent and less crime-prone therefore more acceptable?
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@ EPGAH
This is you, ALL THE WAY:
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So what? Why is white privilege a bad thing in a country founded by whites?
Our country, we make the rules. Once again, I assert that noone complains about the “privilege” of any other group in their own countries, so why whites?
I also have a pardon from White Guilt by none other than Walter Williams himself!
(http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/WalterWilliamsAmnestyProclamation.pdf)
And weirder, no matter what we do, it’s proof of our privilege!
Affirmative Action? Free Housing? Paternalistic giveaways by the dominant civilization–but don’t you DARE stop them!
Elect a Black PRESIDENT who takes the side of the thugs instead of the cops?
“He works for the master of the system of white privilege”–University of Iowa Professor Adrien Wing
AND if all the “suffering” of nonwhites is a result of slavery or whatever, how did it skip ~5 generations?
Faced with the evidence that black families were healthier at a time when blacks were just a generation or two out of slavery, at a time when there was far greater racial discrimination and there were far fewer opportunities, how much credence can be given to the legacy-of-slavery argument to explain today’s weak family structure?
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When did this “White Privilege” accusation start? I can’t find any mention of it in any publication until the 1990s, after the fall of USSR (And our subsequent bailout of them!)
What is so “privileged” about insisting whoever lives in our country and drinks of our Cup of Plenty, has to follow our rules, not theirs? Or if they don’t, at least SOME of the perks will be withheld pending full cooperation?
Why don’t the people who hate America’s “privilege” system so much, find another country to live in, where NOONE has privilege? I recommend Somalia!
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epgah-
“Why don’t the people who hate America’s “privilege” system so much, find another country to live in, where NOONE has privilege? I recommend Somalia!”
When all else fails, resort to the “if you don’t like it here, go back to Africa” shtick.
GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHITE BOY, THIS IS NOT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN “YOUR” COUNTRY.
Why the hell don’t YOU go back to europe???
It’s irritating when they dribble this crap as a last resort in a losing argument.
They make me sick to my stomach, like roaches.
Sometimes I wish we would just have this race war already, that way I would have an excuse to take some of their smug asses out.
White people are the cancer of the earth.
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Stacks
OOH! “THIS IS NOT…YOUR COUNTRY” “White people are the cancer of the Earth!” I’ve NEVER heard that before! And yet, WE are the smug ones?
How is it not our country? There was no country here until we came and established one. English established America, French made Canada, and Spain made Mexico. (A fate I would hesitate before wishing on anyone.)
Now Spanish DID loot/overthrow an existing nation, but they were horribly oppressing cultures less than themselves, so Karma, right?
Who invited the savages here from Mongolia, and why did build anything? Not enough Centuries? Did whites land on the Take Extra Turn square? If so, where is this square?
But how are WE the cancer of the Earth? White countries are the best in the world. Blacks want to STAY here, no matter how much they complain, and everyone else in the nonwhite world wants to come here too.
If we were the CANCER of the Earth, white-majority cities would LOOK like cancer–like Detroit or Somalia. Nonwhites of EVERY description would steer clear of white neighborhoods, cities, countries. Maybe they’d get OUR refugees and start complaining about OUR entitled mindset in THEIR countries! Imaginary turnabout is hilarious, isn’t it?
Whites would breed like cancer, whether we could afford it or not, quickly muscling all nonwhites out of the Welfare rolls.
Maybe you meant CENTER of the Earth?
Now back to reality. Whites are 8-10% of the world’s population–and yet, we pay the “minorities”–we are expected to–no matter how much they breed, and how little they can afford.
If Blacks finally start the race war, all we’d have to do is cutoff Welfare, electricity, water, and cellphone service for a month or two and Blacks would surrender in Brigade strength!
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Stacks
I didn’t MEAN to say “Go Back To Africa”, I was just trying to pick the poorest, dirtiest, most violent country I could think of. Just HAPPENED to be in Africa. What does that say to you and your Black Pride?
(The poorest country is actually Sudan, but Somalia is more violent now. For that matter, can you Name a SINGLE African country that “made it” after they kicked out/killed off the whites? Must hurt you DEEPLY that you have to live among the whites you hate so dearly to have a good Standard of Living. Does it hurt everytime you type, since computers are a white invention?)
I don’t care where you go, but obviously, you don’t like it HERE, right?
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Lord of Mirkwood.
It’s not according to ME, it’s been genetically proven.
http://genetics.thetech.org/ask/ask41
BUT my point was they were no more invited than we were, so how is America not OUR country?
What about racists like Stacks? Is that part of “respectable society” to you?
Why are you defending a guy who doesn’t consider America ours, and wants to “take some of our smug asses out”?
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@ Stacks
Don’t you just love how they always pull out the “computers were a white invention” or “Poor Africa”. I wonder how the white guy who invented it feels about the general population of whites taking credit for his work .
I found a picture of poor Africa.
ROFL
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epgah-
“I don’t care where you go, but obviously, you don’t like it HERE, right?”
Who the hell are you to tell anyone to go anywhere?
Again, in case you didn’t comprehend the first time: THIS IS NOT “YOUR” COUNTRY!!!
Take your paternalism and stick it where the sun don’t shine. Who the hell do you think you’re talking to, one of your kids???
Not to mention, you’re derailing. The post is about the Irish, not whatever you decide to blather off. That innate feeling to control is just too much for you, eh?
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With whites racism and savagery is the minority. Blacks quite the opposite. Racism goes unchecked among blacks. Noone calls them out on it.
if a Black says something racist about whites he/she is often agreed with, even applauded as a “Proud Black Man”.
If a white does the same thing he/she is simply labeled a racist. Also the majority of non-racist whites self-police the few white racists we have. Blacks don’t do the same. Non-racist Blacks–and even “anti-racists”–never call out racist Blacks, nor do they condemn Black racism. so Black children are raised seeing that it’s OK to be racist and even violent against whites. And they want to be even MORE racist, MORE violent, MORE disrespectful of whites’ culture and laws than their parents were.
Where are the groups of non-racist Blacks shouting down Elijah Muhammad and Kambon when they call for murdering whites, cops, even white babies?
Compare that to what whites did to Hitler?
That’s the real difference between blacks and whites. If the Blacks are REALLY fed up with it, rather than attacking their hosts, why not LEAVE? “Our House, Our Rules”. There’s plenty of countries run by Blacks, but they’re kinda such expletives of your choice that even BLACKS don’t want to live there and are pouring into Europe in numbers that should be disgusting, but they think it’s somehow their “Right”!
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sharinalr
Which country is that? Could that be one of the countries where China has started pouring in money and infrastructure to replace Civilized World money and infrastructure? All they ask in return is to drill a little resources, right?
Wait…isn’t that the same thing the Civilized World did ~400 years ago?
1.) Build country
2.) Drill resources
3.) Get overthrown
No Step 3 Profit here!
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@Sharinalr, yes, poor, poor Africa!
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@EPGAH
Do research and you will find several other black countries just like it in the oh so poor Africa.
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but wait….this post is about the Irish.
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epgah-
“What about racists like Stacks? Is that part of “respectable society” to you?
Why are you defending a guy who doesn’t consider America ours, and wants to “take some of our smug asses out”?”
Unlike you, I don’t care if you call me a racist. (LOL)
I promise you I will not lose a second of sleep.
…And you don’t think amerikkka is “ours”, you think it is YOURS, racist.
Actually this land doesn’t belong to any of us. Your people’s manifest destiny would have worked had you killed off all the original inhabitants. I bet they didn’t bank on any of them living to tell the story. Don’t worry friend, you all will fall on your broad sword soon enough.
The natives didn’t call ol’ georgie hanadaguyus for nothing!
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That’s Nigeria, the country not only supported by China, but known for a certain Internet scam…The “Government” protects the scammers from prosecution as long as they only target the Civilized World, and give the Government a vig.
So in other words, they’re rich by theft.
If YOU do some research, you’ll also find out that inspired by Somalia, NIGERIA decided to field their own maritime pirates!
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Stacks
I’m not really affected too much by you calling me a “racist” either, but the fact is, you expect it to have power. You expect me to bawl, “Oh, PLEASE don’t call me a racist, here I’ll waive all our laws for you, just PLEASE don’t call me a racist”, right?
When have whites–especially AMERICAN whites–killed ALL of an enemy group?
Indians? Nope. We set aside Reservations for them and generational Welfare!
British? Nope. We let them take over our monetary system! Not real bright, in hindsight.
Rowdy Irish immigrants? Nope. Once they settled down, we welcomed them aboard!
Mexicans? Nope. The current President is turning a brown eye to their continuous invasion. What happened to America’s reputation as merciless savage-killers? That’s what “hanadaguyus” means, you know…Or was it an Indian typo?
Germany? Nope. They LEAD Europe right now in all the metrics that matter.
Viet Cong? Nope. Ridiculous ROE and LBJ’s micromanaging “strategy” made it the Noise Before Defeat.
Korean Communists? Nope. ALMOST won, but then China invaded in a HUGE wave, pushing our forces back and artificially creating North Korea.
Our “Manifest Destiny” would’ve required us to conquer the savages, Mexico, and Canada…all at once. I can’t think of anyone who’s won a two-front war SOLO, let alone a three-front war.
“This land doesn’t belong to any of us” might be right, Mexico’s doing by lawbreaking and outbreeding what they failed to do TWICE by force-of-arms! But given what they did to their own country, which they might care about, do you really consider that a good thing, given they don’t care about America at all?
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I–and people better than I (Or at least older and richer) have written a lot about the need for Blacks to drop the racial solidarity as a way to move into the mainstream of American life.
Just like Irish shaped up and moved up, so can Blacks by evolving to blacks!
That’s why the people in the race rackets are so obsessed with keeping everyone on the reservation. It’s a self-ghettoization that is self-perpetuating, therefore I see no way out of it. Perhaps it becomes so poisonous it just collapses on its own. Maybe when all the old race hustlers from the civil rights era drop dead, the funk will lift. (That is the literal and diametric opposite to what Oprah said, claiming racism would only die when the WHITE racists died!)
When you have a distinct minority that defines itself by its obsession with being a minority, there’s no reason to think they ever pull out of that spiral.
Why should they? Failure is more profitable than success!
The Welfare State DID NOT EXIST when Irish came over, so they HAD to assimilate as a function of SURVIVAL!
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@EPGAH
Shifting goal posts again only to run into it again. It does not matter if they are funded by peter pan. You tried to claim ” For that matter, can you Name a SINGLE African country that “made it” after they kicked out/killed off the whites?” Obvious that made it. not only did they “make it” but they seem to have made it the same way White Americans did. Thievery (if that is even true). I sense jealousy in your post.
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sharinalr
Really? There’s a white scam? An American, Irish, English, French, Swedish, or German scam? I thought Nigeria was the ONLY country that had a scam named after it.
Can you send me a link?
No white country runs pirates for about 300 years now.
So what do you mean “same way white Americans did. Thievery”?
What did we steal and whom from?
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@EPGAH
Switching goal posts yet again. Well allow me to let you run into it again.
“So in other words, they’re rich by theft.”–This is a quote of your very words.
Bringing in White scams or American, Irish, English, French, Swedish, or German scam is a straw man. I never made claim of a scam. What I said and I quote “but they seem to have made it the same way White Americans did. THIEVERY (if that is even true).” A person with half a brain gets what I mean. Then again you proved you have none.
“What did we steal and whom from?”—The real question is what haven’t you. Land, music, credit of inventions, ideas, laws, etc. You get the gist.
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Oh and let me not forget the stealing of Irish struggles to make it seem as if “white people” struggled too.
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“Then again you proved you have none.” Would THAT be ad hom?
We didn’t STEAL land, we CONQUERED it. Everyone conquered everyone else until about 1908. I mentioned that before. Why didn’t you get that?
Remember, Europe was invaded by savages multiple times, and barely fought them off.
Moors, Mongols, Arabs…OK, technically, the Mongols stopped THEMSELVES, because Khan died.
But even after being conquered, rather than sit around and mope and whine about “savage privilege” or whatever, we bounced back, we got ahead of everyone else technologically (Most “Moslem” inventions were actually invented by Europeans either before the takeover, or when we were the slaves of terrorists! Surprisingly Abagond had a link to this), then conquered the globe! And not only conquered the globe, but basically did so as a side-effect of a measuring-contest between European nations!
And now we’re being cowed…by the idea that we have privileges in our own country? If I lived in your house, would you put up with me complaining that you get to do things I don’t, just because you’re the OWNER OF THE HOUSE?
As to music, I think there’s a discussion on that in the other page, but the gist was that rock is an ENHANCED version of Black music, not a copy. Much like my gun is an ENHANCED version of a flintlock.
Laws? Hammurabi made the FIRST laws…but Greece made BETTER ones!
Greece is the birthplace of democracy, not the Iroquois.
Indeed if we were going to “steal” anything from the savages, it would be the “idea” that mass invasion by a hostile culture is “bad”…But wait, they knew that! They tried to kill us for making the place BETTER! What do we do to invaders who make the place WORSE? Why, pay and feed them, of course!
As to the Irish “struggle” it was similar to the Black “struggle” only insofar as whether to assimilate vs. stay separate and fight us for dominance of our country. However, since their violence spawned the first official Police Department in New York, which beat them if they misbehaved too much (Police Brutality USED to be ENCOURAGED, because it WORKED!), and there was no Welfare system to enable continued failure, PLUS the Atlantic made a good moat, so there was no turning back. If they wanted to stay here, AND SURVIVE, they would assimilate. Period.
If ONLY DiCaprio made a prettied-up version of that into a movie!
Blacks and now Mexicans have no such incentives.
·Thugs can sue cops if the cops try to beat or shoot a “Can’t We All Just Get Along” mentality into their thick skulls.
·There IS a Welfare system to enable continued failure–or is it really failure, if it’s behavior that gets rewarded?
·No privileges are withheld from those who don’t assimilate.
·Failure to assimilate is no longer considered a failure–no stigma, “No Wrong Answers”–regardless of the state of the country/countries run by That Culture!
·They don’t WANT to go back, and since Eisenhower, we’ve shown LITTLE will to give them the Boot just for being troublemakers!
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It amazes me how one Broken Record thread always gets derailed by another.
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@ EPGAH
This post is about how hard the Irish had it and how that proves what a bunch of self-absorbed whiners Black people are. That should be right up you alley. But instead you derail. How odd.
Please stay on topic.
If you want to tell Blacks to go back to Africa, go here:
If you want to talk about what a hellhole Africa is, go here:
If you want to remind us how wonderful White people are and that we are nothing without them, go here:
Most of the things you say we have heard a zillion times before. Some of them even have posts of their own, listed here:
Your free-associative rants belong here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/
Stop derailing my threads. If you persist, I will put all of your comments through moderation and get to them when I get to them. I cannot babysit you 24/7.
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@ ALL
EPGAH is so free-associative that it would be tedious to list what is off topic.
If you want to respond to any of EPGAH’s many off-topic rants, provide a link to the appropriate thread or to the Open Thread and say you will answer him there. Otherwise your comment will be deleted as off topic.
This thread is about “the Irish had it hard too” argument, not whatever pops into EPGAH’s head.
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^^^ Fair and agreed. Delete the comment here and I will replace it on open thread with a link.
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@EPGAH
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-295936
My response to your piddle.
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@taotesan:
Awesome analysis, and this is exactly why I have so much discomfort with the idea of a so-called “white African”. How can “whites” be truly called “African” when they, or at least most of them, benefit from educational, wealth and land ownership, and social privileges that have yet to be afforded to the people who have been in Africa for tens or even hundreds of thousands of years longer than their families have ever been, not to mention it is questionable how much cultural assimilation they have undergone?
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@ Abagond
My above comment ties into the question – “What about the Irish.”
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@Abagond
Troll alert. Why is EPGAH allowed to vent his nonsense here and his comments are still up? If it neighs like a troll, vents like a troll, lies like a troll then it is a troll.
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@villagewriter
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/my-philosophy-on-trolls/)
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@Jefe
What if their trolling is off-topic? As far as I can troll Epgah’s off-topic trolling is still in this thread.
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Usually, off topic comments receive a warning first before deletion (as was done above). Now that the warning is up, if it persists, future comments may very well be deleted.
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@ villagewriter @ Michael Cooper
Comments deleted for being OFF TOPIC. You are letting EPGAH derail one Broken Record with another. Throw him a link to the appropriate post or to the Open Thread and answer him there.
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moddied all day here!
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i guess i am violating the 5th grade rule, or suggestion for uninterrupted unmoderated commentary
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@ v6driver
Comment deleted for being off topic.
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@ villagewriter
I used to go back and delete off-topic comments, but that creates arguments of its own. In my experience, the best way to get a thread back on track is to give warning that something is off-topic and then delete off-topic comments going forward.
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@abagond
I have a reply to comment to mike4ty4 which would be off – topic.
@mike4ty4
Thank you. I have a reply to your comment that I will post in the “Broken Africa” thread.
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@EPGAH: Your’e ignorance is appalling. Africa is not a country fool it’s continent.
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@ Abagond: EPGAH is a troll why is he allowed to spew his/her ignorance on this thread.
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Oops! I meant to punctuate with a (?) in my last post. Why is that troll EPGAH allowed to spew his/her racism andignorance on this thread?
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@abagond
“Throw him a link to the appropriate post or to the Open Thread and answer him there.”
I am not about to babysit an ignorant tripe head.
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Had EPGAH been a chicken I would have thrown him some worms. (yum)
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“When all else fails, resort to the “if you don’t like it here, go back to Africa” shtick.
GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHITE BOY, THIS IS NOT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN “YOUR” COUNTRY.
Why the hell don’t YOU go back to europe???” @ Stacks, THIS-and thank you for taking the time to address the fukcery that spewed from that waste-o-breath-and-space troll’s putrid mouth!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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African Americans built America with their blood. They own that country.
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They own that country!!!!
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You don’t want them to get reparations, you don’t think they own the country they built with their own blood!! You just want them to join you in your war against corporations; and we all know who will suffer more if that ever happens-it won’t be an Irish man.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
And who do you think makes up the billionaire class ans support it?
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Unite other Irishmen and start the fight. Let us see how far you go with it then maybe others will join you. If you last two weeks after being branded a lazy welfare state admirer, socialist or common commi, then we will know you are serious. Survive that then everyone else will join you. How many people of Irish stock follow your blog and agree with you by the way?
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@Lord of Mirkwood
And what race do you think those people are?
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Any groups formed by the Irish against billionaires? In America? In Europe I know they are resisting corporations but in America it seems like most are comfortable-at least it seems that way.
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@ Pumpkin
I was not being short with you. I just do not know, so there is not much to say.
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Is it reasonable to equate the situation the Irish were in in 1900 with the situation of Hispanics tofay?
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@Kartoffel,
1. definitely not 1900. By that time, Irish were already white. Have to go back at least to the Civil War era or even earlier.
– By the time of the Chinese Exclusion Act (1882), immigrant Irish-Americans had no problem convincing other white people that they deserved to be Americans, but not Chinese immigrants (or even their American born children who were Americans by virtue of the 14th Amendment).
–> For the similar rhetoric to occur today, Hispanics would have to convince politicians to close the door on Asian immigration because, after all, Hispanics deserve to be in the USA but Asians do not.
– Before the Civil war, mixed race Indians could marry Irish to escape removal and relocation. (Can mixed racial persons gain white status in 2015 by marrying Hispanics? maybe.)
2. definitely not brown Latinos. Maybe white Hispanics.
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From another perspective, a while back I wrote about the orphan trains:
In that post, I discussed the issue of the Irsh:
“Another recent invention is our present conception of whiteness. One of the most interesting stories of the orphan trains relates back to one of the main protagonists of this story, the Irish. They weren’t always deemed white. The English and Anglo-Americans were known to compare the Irish to Africans and Native Americans. The Irish were savages and foreigners, partly because they were mostly Catholic. Unlike today, Catholicism wasn’t seen as just another variety of Christianity. Protestants, specifically WASPs, saw Catholics as an alien culture. One of the names given to poor Irish children was “street Arabs”.”
I pointed out one of the incidents that helped the Irish became white. It wasn’t in contrast to African-Americans, but rather in contrast to Mexican-Americans where anti-Catholicism played a contributing role:
“WASPs, in their fear of Catholics, intentionally placed Catholic children into Protestant homes. In response, Catholics began to implement their own programs to deal with Catholic children in need of homes. One such case involved nuns bringing a trainload of Irish orphans to Arizona to be adopted by Catholic families. The problem was that the Catholic families in question were Mexican-American. The nuns didn’t understand the local racism/ethnocentrism involved and were taken by surprise by the response of the local WASPs. The “white” population living there took great offense at this challenge to racial purity. Suddenly, when put into that context, the Irish children were deemed to be innocent whites to be protected against an inferior race. This is ironic because where those Irish children came from in the big cities out East they were considered the inferior race.”
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This, so much.
That being said, I am not sure what’s going on today in Ireland – I believe there are still some tensions with the British government and all. They are still seen as inferior. But that’s European situation and it can’t be applied to the US. Race and ethnicity are different in Europe – you can be racially white but you can be seen as inferior if you are of the “wrong” ethnicity. Though again, that doesn’t apply to the US, so it should not be used in the US context. Irish =/= Irish-American.
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I am so happy to see that bloggers here are aware of Lord of Nothing’s (Mirkwood) tired quibble of: oh, us Irish folks have been discriminated by other whites in Amerika just as much as Blacks, if not more so.
History is quite clear as it relates to treatment of racial groups within this country, it just makes me wonder what version of skewed and warped history he’s been reading.
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@Mira
Thank you for pointing that out. Too often people like LOM try to take the European Irish experience and attach it to the Irish American experience.
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Agree with Mira.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You rely too heavily on what is happening in Ireland to attempt to make your case for America. No such discrimination is happening to them here and has not happened for a long time. It is essentially a half truth used to garner your poor Irish rhetoric.
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@lotr I used to drink Jamison’s out of a shot glass, with Canadian beer back.
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“a tendency in both countries to associate Irishness with simian drunkenness.” – Lord of Mirkwood
Ok,.. now I see. Well, perhaps drunkenness beautifully explains why you tirelessly and incoherently post what you usually post. Stay away from the bottle for more than a couple of days, that may help you on the road to a full and speedy recovery. Good luck!
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Mr Mirkatroid-
“I’ve never taken a drink in my life, except for Sacramental wine. ”
Then perhaps you need to ease up on your consumption of said wine. It seems that something has you blocked from what’s so very obvious to 99.9% of the regulars commenters. Why are you practically the only one here that doesn’t get what everyone else does?
“admit that you are a pathological racist.”
BTW, when exactly did Black people cross over from being victims of racism, to becoming actual racists?
Was it during the Black Codes era, or during the commission of Sun-Down Towns?
Might it be that Black people became racists as a result of being BOMBED (1921) in Tulsa, Oklahoma?
Maybe it was just after the Rosewood *cleansing* in 1923 where Black people were pretty much massacred?
Perchance it was it in the midst of the Jim Crow era???
No, not then? … how about during the NEW Jim Crow era with the recent increase in the caging of Black/Brown bodies at inordinate rates that far exceeds the white incarceration for the same crimes? It should be called the New Slavery as white owned corporations/industries profit greatly from this virtual theft of labor – and increased congressional districts!
Could it have been when Blacks were getting all those so-called quotas (that made many angry white people come up with silly phrases such as “reverse racism”) like Affirmative Action which mostly benefited WHITE people??
Do tell. I’ve always been interested in learning about when, where and how, exactly, (according to others) BLACK people became racists!
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^^^^^
smh ..
I don’t think one can “FAIL” at something (or someone) that had absolutely no chance to begin with.
(At least I learned that the Irish are a race, not an ethnic group, AND that dictionaries written and sold by white people TRUMP the reality of what racism really is! How convenient is that? I suppose my ancestors by your definitions while on slave ships en route to their living hell shackled in irons and fed slop while treated worse than an animals were in fact already hard core racists….)
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Mirkwood
You can’t compare the racism Blacks have historically experienced as well as what Blacks go through today on the same level as the stereotype that “the Irish drink to much”.
Is it racist to say that the Russians like their vodka, the Germans their beer and the French their wine ? I think the French are snobs, does that make me racist ?
When I say the French are snobs does that automatically mean that I’m suggesting that I’m superior to the French or just that I think they are annoying ?
“Of course black people are victims of racism. So are the Irish. For every Michael Brown, there is a Patrick Rooney.”
Patrick Rooney was a child shot dead in 1969. It appears to have been an accident, a stray bullet, not a deliberate murder.
Do you have any idea how many Black teenagers have been shot dead by the police since 1969 ? Have you been paying attention to the number of unarmed Blacks that have died this year ?
I’m pretty sure if you got on a plane and traveled to England today the English would view you as an American. You wouldn’t experience any discrimination because your last name indicated you were of Irish ancestry.
If a Black American travels to England that person will be viewed first as black and secondly as an American.
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@Fan..
Standing ovation. Bravo!
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Excellent points.
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This Mirkwood is the obverse of the same coin as that odious EPGAH.
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What it is interesting that these highly civilised beings who rap rhapsodic that the genesis of their culture lies in Greek civilization, yet from the modern day zeitgeist, one unequivocally knows that they have not even meditated upon the Socratic maxim: “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
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~taotesan
“This Mirkwood is the obverse of the same coin as that odious EPGAH.”
Yes!!! Standing ovation to you for calling THAT out!
The recently banned one deems itself a race realist (by the things it says and believes) and the other fancies himself an ally. With allies like this, who needs an (odorous) EPGAH?
Maybe Mirky could leave us alone and lend his (ANTI-) superpowers to:
– those who support animal rights (no offense to animals!)
– those who love trees and the environment
– chimpout and stormfront (..way more likely to have believers in the stuff Mirky espouses!)
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Right over the head.
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@taotesan
I second everything you said.
@Fan …
Applause…
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@ Fan…
“Maybe Mirky could leave us alone and lend his (ANTI-) superpowers to:
– those who support animal rights (no offense to animals!)
– those who love trees and the environment
– chimpout and stormfront (..way more likely to have believers in the stuff Mirky espouses!)”
You are very funny. But I don’t think they would want him either.
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@LOM
Even with what Blakkasge said you are stretching to make it racist. He did not say it out of some superiority to you. He said it to indicate only a drunk would speak such nonsense as you.
“Did I say ALL black people were racist? No, so your point is invalid.”—Fan did not say you did, so straw man.
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This one is incorrigible.
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@Mirkwood
A stereotype is a generalization about different groups that’s usually understood to be an exaggeration.
So not all English are racists just the “conservative ones.” Where have I heard that before ? lol
Racism in part deals with the assumptions white people have about Blacks. So when an American Black man travels to England the English will automatically have assumptions
about that Black man that they themselves won’t see as a stereotype. The English won’t have those same assumptions about you.
Thats the difference between you traveling to England and a Black American. How people see you will be based soley on the color of your skin.
If you chose to drink heavily in England no one would notice and say “look a drunk Irishman”.
If a Black man did anything wrong it would be assumed he did so because he was Black.
Thats what racism is.
It’s got nothing to do with Irish stereotypes.
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@lotr it seemed like epgah wouldnt shut up and called everyone out by name. I personally wasnt coordinating verbal/typewritten repartee with you or anyone else. And they will just call him the w word at stormfront.
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Lotr that is
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@LOM
“What Fan SAID was that I was implying his ancestors on the slave ships were racist, thus the logical conclusion would be that all black people are racist”—That is not logical considering not all black people came here on slave ships or as slaves.
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@LOM
“You know, I thought we could make an alliance against EPGAH. For one or two glorious days, we had all banded together to unite against our common racist and conservative enemy.”—WE. What WE? You sat back and said nothing but one comment to it. There was no alliance. There is you riding the coat tails of people who did the work against that thing.
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“WE. What WE? You sat back and said nothing but one comment to it. There was no alliance. There is you riding the coat tails of people who did the work against that thing.”
LMAO!!!
Mirky,
Do your mum and dad know that you’ve defeated the child lock – password protect – they placed on their computer and you’re on it when they’re not home???
Little Irish people (Leprechauns?) shouldn’t be playing with their mums and dads stuff when they aren’t around! Shouldn’t you be handing out some gold coins, lucky charms or four leaf clovers somewhere instead of trying to get folks on an adult site all stirred up about YOUR culture and your relentless deliberate ignorance?
(Does saying *Leprechaun* – or Little Irish people – make me a racist, if I’m not Irish? Should I have just simple said, the “L” word??)
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*simply
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Keyword here is YOUR BLOG. Had he not come to your blog you would have continued not saying a thing.
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@Fan…
“the “L” word?”—ROFL. That reminds me of that softcore lesbian porn that used to be on showtime.
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@ Fan…
“BTW, when exactly did Black people cross over from being victims of racism, to becoming actual racists?”
I have not yet researched the year when the dictionary definitions of racism had changed. Post Civil Rights era in the USA? The white lexicographers in their power, have changed the one word that describes white historical and contemporary hatred of the other and at the same stroke, exonerate themselves, whilst charging the victims of their racism of hatred. This genius move on their part has shifted the blame on to the victim.
I call this The Matari Definition of Racism:
“When, or if, black people begin chaining, shipping, enslaving, selling, lynching, raping, oppressing, exploiting, shooting, jailing, whipping, maiming, torturing, evangelizing, robbing, stereotyping, bullying, bombing, segregating, building highways and thruways to dislocate businesses, communities and neighborhoods; creating SUN-DOWN towns, experimenting on, discriminating against, prohibiting, murdering, holding back/controlling in every imaginable way while HATING WHITE PEOPLE en mass via de jure and de facto racism for HUNDREDS of years, then and only then can calling black people racists make sense.”
Thank you, Matari.
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Did I address you?
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@LOM
So basically because the Irish are experiencing racism in Britain or Ireland, then they are experiencing it everywhere? Heck your article even states they are going to do a study to determine the extent.
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One racist troll was banned for breaking the comment rules.
Another one is still here, entertaining us as the class pet lizard. Except, he is so delusional, he doesn’t realize he is pet animal.
Only thing is, some students in the class are getting bored with it. Seems like you can’t teach an old lizard new tricks.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
The date of your article does not matter to me. I asked simple question. I don’t need you to dance around it.
“By the way, I know you’re not really serious about the “anti-Irish racism in Europe does not equal anti-Irish racism in America” thing, because I see the Black American and Black African experiences being linked here ALL THE TIME.”—I see a crack pipe and a dunce hat on your head, doesn’t mean you are wearing or doing those things. At any rate you are taking the Irish experience in Europe and trying to excuse or ignore the Irish experience in the USA. Which is that they are the oppressors. If you call a few drunk jokes and stereotypes and dealing with the same as Africans and African Americans, then you are really on some stuff.
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as dealing*
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@LOM
“I am FIGHTING against the capitalist inequalities which are at the root of racism!”—Not true. Take away capitalist inequalities and racism is still right there. Think about the rich black people who still have to deal with racism and being pulled over due to the cars they drive etc.
On top of that you are not fighting for anything other than yourself. Which is typically of white liberals. You use us to back your causes, but don’t have time to listen to what we want or what we see that our people need.
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@LoM
Yes.
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“Is Matari as reputable a source as a team of English-language scholars?”
Hey Mirky,
I’m a fan of Matari, Franklin, Mack Lyons, MsTooGood4You, Demenera, King, Kwamla, Sam, Herneith, PayItForward, MaconD, Sondis, Abagond and a host of other posters here, too many to name and remember. They are far more reputable in their insights and understanding than these so-called expert language scholars. You would know this yourself if you could see and think straight, I can tell by your tones that you haven’t read much here, or haven’t been influenced at all by what you’ve read.
” The white lexicographers in their power, have changed the one word that describes white historical and contemporary hatred of the other and at the same stroke, exonerate themselves, whilst charging the victims of their racism of hatred. This genius move on their part has shifted the blame on to the victim.”
Absolutely. Unfortunately many have bought the lexi-con-ers’ lie, that the victims are somehow perpetrating unjust behavior against their oppressors! They’ve managed to fool many of the people much of the time, but they have yet to fool all of the people all of the time. These con men are experts at refining white-supremacy while maintaining the tenets of REAL racism. I like the way Matari’s definition of racism lays it all out. Kwamla’s definition is true as well. Only ONE powerful group can practice racism at a time. It’s more detailed than that,but that’s the basic gist of it.
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This “GAELIC”- American cry-baby syndrome is, in part, due to the revised definition of racism of the ENGLISH Oxford Dictionary.
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Oxford ENGLISH Dictionary.
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Extracts from the Irish Times: Fri 9th October 2015
“People from a “black African” background are the most vulnerable to racist attack and harassment in Ireland, according to a new report.
The study from Enar, the European Network Against Racism (Ireland), found social media is increasingly used to abuse minorities and “mobilise”racism.
It also reported a low level of satisfaction with responses to complaints about abuse and a high level of confusion among victims about support available from the Garda. The report covers the period from July to December 2014. Enar received reports of 182 incidents of racist verbal abuse, violence, discrimination and other attacks.
Its chairman, Shane O’Curry, says this figure is considered the “tip of the iceberg” because the reporting system in use since July 2013 is relatively new.
Reports of racist incidents are gathered from more than 40 civil organisations around the State and also from members of the public, including victims of abuse, via Enar’s website iReport.ie.
The reporting system is regarded as the most credible and comprehensive in Ireland.
“Anecdotally, it seems racism is increasing, that people feel a greater entitlement to express their racism, and that is worrying.”
The report finds people identifying as either “black African” or black from any other background accounted for 59 of the reports of abuse.”
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http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/ireland-may-help-eu-in-expelling-refugees-358447.html
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Ireland Warmly Welcomes Obamas; But Black African Immigrants? Not So Much.
(http://www.ibtimes.com/ireland-warmly-welcomes-obamas-black-african-immigrants-not-so-much-131010)
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@taotesan
I wonder what his next excuse will be for the Irish being the oppressors in Ireland.
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@ sharinair
Both of these racists lack any insight or understanding of what constitutes basic human decency. This one is incapable of honest reflection. The other more rabid in the spectrum of racism
He( Mirkwood) is an incorrigible racist. He does not get it, and doubtfully ever will.
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yawn
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“I wonder what his next excuse will be for the Irish being the oppressors in Ireland.”
He won’t have one. In fact I’ll bet that he avoids this issue just like he avoids everything else that doesn’t fit HIS world-view.
Taotesan,
At first I thought you were being funny… until I realized that you were not doing some sort of ONION satire-ish reporting. Sometimes truth is stranger than my own imagination.
Mirky,
I don’t have to go to your site to see any further crazy lop-sidedness where you and your new best friend are playing pat-a-cake or whatever… I had enough insanity from the one time I was foolish to go there.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“And it’s because he’s a racist.”—Nope. It is because he is annoying you, because you already knew he was racist. If you were to ban him on that merit then you would have a long time ago.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
It is your blog. How are your hands tied? You don’t need to fake the funk for me.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You said he violated comment policy. So all the excusing you are making for not banning him are just that. Excuses. You are not winning some award for keeping him and you won’t win one for banning him.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
XPraetorius had not violated the comment policy in those two weeks as of yet. He was only banned because he admitted to be a troll, which is a violation of the comment policy.
“When EPGAH violates my policy again, and I ban his ass, I’ll be sure to let you know.”—-And I repeat…You are not winning some award for keeping him and you won’t win one for banning him.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“Honestly, what do you want from me?”—Nothing.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Just because I enjoy calling you on your bs does not mean I have some goal behind it. You simply have nothing to offer me and my goals I typically only discuss with black people and actual allys.
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I wish I had the humour of Fan…, Hernieth, Mz Nikita and Trevor Noah. But I lose all my humour when it comes to racists. My comment is to other Black and other commenters. It is rather long and would possibly put an end this fool’s shenanigans, although I would not put too much store into it.
This cowardly bore has insisted that he is an anti-racist ally (what a stupid term) but he has consistently demonstrated that he unable to self-reflect and meditate upon as to what makes a decent person.
He has to foist himself upon Black people, because nobody else wants him. From the Dylan Roof post, he accuses a Black commenter in the wake of racist mass-murderer of being worse than Hitler and launches into a paroxysm of exasperation against the criticism of the parasitic (my word) queen of England. This paragon of non-racism dismisses one of the greatest sons of the African soil as a racist. He frothed at the mouth in the Du Bose and the Lion debacle.
Not for a nanosecond, did he have the decency and insight to listen to any commenter on the White liberal thread. l remember pointedly how disgustingly rude condescending and dismissive as a privileged white male he was to Mary Burrell and Sharinair , when they challenged his racism. On the #BlackLivesMatter thread this unctuous ‘Go, Bernie’ fool befouls the thread with his cheap patriotism.
This insensitive ignoramus makes fun of the lynching of Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith by making a Nazi salute! The irony of an ‘anti-racist ally’(whatever that means) accusing a Black person of racism obviously escapes this impostor. At every turn, this deluded philistine garbles about how the real enemy is the plutocrat. With his discomfort at being challenged as a racist, this privileged white (Irish descended)male in America, with a penchant for histrionics, bawls his head off and screams blue murder like Verucca Salt and flails like something out of the Exorcist and then accuses his Black challengers of ‘lynching’ him.
This obnoxious piece of work then gets all bent out of shape that his Irish people are stereotyped as dipsomaniacs, his expects sympathy from Black people who have absolutely nothing, nothing, nothing to do with it all. This ingrate, who has no understanding whatsoever what a privilege it is to live on Indigenous land, has the audacity to tell survivors of the worst tragedies in world history how to think and react to their history. And this is just a precis of his shenanigans.
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Continued
For all his garrulous screeds of word salads by this self-styled ‘anti-racist’ that Black commenters have to put up with, writes one limp-wristed mealy-mouthed sentence to a racist on steroids. This same person who suffers from persecution mania, writes long narcoleptic ‘Look at how hard done I am by Abagond’s people’ posts on his blogs. On one particularly soporific one, he induces the reader into a near coma with his maudlin self-pity (not induced by Irish whiskey) but self-preservation mercifully kicks in with a hypnagogic jerk.
This self-styled indefatigable champion of Black justice, on one of his crocodile tears posts, deletes all comments from Black critics. Now this vapid moaning Charlie gnashes his teeth to a mostly Black audience that his white male racist complement is ‘destroying’ his blog (he should be grateful that anyone comments there) and has the gall to accuse Sharinair of ‘battering him for months’.
On this thread, his best shot is cheap-shot racist satire from a late- night talk show host, Patrick Rooney, accidentally killed by a stray bullet in 1969 (conflating that with the police murder of unarmed Black Americans) and accusing Black commenter of racism for teasing him, that perhaps a dram of uisge beatha might do him a bit of good.
His verbal histrionics conflating Black criticism of his boorish behavior to that of ‘lynch mob’ shows what a reprobate he is. What type of a person would write this?
“As fair justice, should I call you a drug-user, gangster, and triple murderer just because you’re black? If you say yes, I’ll be amazed. If you say no, then either take back what you said about me in the above comment or admit that you are a pathological racist.”
And “I know that if I said all Xhosa people were primitive s@vages who had chicken bones stuffed up their noses, I would be called a racist. I’ll bet that the fact that I limited my judgment to the Xhosa, and not all blacks, would be no excuse.”
What kind of lucid, sane, measured, cogent response can one stupidly expect from this puke-inducing buffoon? His rantings about counterrevolutionary whatnot and leftist solidarity handholding claptrap with Black ‘lynch mobs’ against the plutocrats is a sure sign that all is not all right up there. Who knows, Karma is b***h and he may one day, have to ask his mate, epgah, while they both scream for extra padding, to help loosen his straight-jacket and wipe the froth off his mouth. They both deserve each other.
I can only look with glazed dough-nut eyes at his response to Irish racism against Black people in Ireland and Irish American racism against people in the USA.
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Taotesan
That right there was an extraordinary worthwhile read & review of “a hypnagogic jerk.”
H/T
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typographical errors- he expects sympathy
and last sentence – against Black people
@Fan… yes, jerk, being the operative word.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Since you want to gather support for leftist causes and since you and Bernie Sanders seem to have so little traction with Black people, you should look into why Sanders only polls at like 10% among Black voters. He is at 4% in South Carolina, the first primary state with a large Black population. You should find out why that is and do a post on it.
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@taotesan, I admire your insight on the hypocrisy of such trollish behavior and the succint examples that were excellently provided as well-Kudos! @Fan, & sharinalr, So on-point (only the most densest of trolls dare to attempt a rebuttal towards the Truths you both clearly presented)!
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@taotesan
Very well said.
@Mz.Nikita
Thank you.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“Too bad he hasn’t violated the Comment Policy yet”—You must believe that the black commenters here can not read or either you are so terrible at lying that you don’t know what lie you tell when. Allow me to quote what you claimed above.
“He’s been in persistent violation of Rules 6 and 9, so he’s on his final warning.”
You then proceed to provide a link to your comment policy. According to you he has been “persistent” in violation rules 6 and 9. Meaning he continuously violates them. Meaning he has and continues to violate your comment policy.
So when you come back with lies such as “Too bad he hasn’t violated the Comment Policy yet.” after claiming he did at one point, then it becomes pretty obvious that you faking the funk.
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“I meant “he hasn’t violated the Comment Policy since the last time I checked in.”
smh — LOL
You really don’t care how lost and ridiculous you appear, do you???
The more you write, the more idiotic you become.
If you were smart, you’d stop talking (here).
Why post …?
You wore out what was left of your welcome a long time ago.
All you are now is like what a goat is to a lion, nothing more.
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@ Taotesan,
That’s an excellent deconstruction of Mirkwood and I concur 100%. Thanks for taking the time to write it. That Mirkwood finds it funny shows just how detached he is from even comprehending what racism is and his own inability at self reflection.
A paradigm shift needs to happens within him so that what he finds funny today would become revolting tomorrow, only then would he get it, otherwise he will always remain just an ally on paper.
That’s why he keeps the other troll around on his blog. To make himself feel that he is “fighting racism”.
Mirkwood: “Abagond, I hate to say it, but this post actually made me vomit.”
The stuff Mirkwood writes on this blog has a similar effect on me.
As the other Irishman on this thread I just can’t claim to be oppressed because some of my ancestors were conquered by the English.
Both my parents are Irish and I can trace the genealogy on both sides of my family back many generations. Some owned slaves and some did not. Some were working class and some were “well to do”. Some were Protestant and some were Catholic. Some were educated and some were illiterate. But none of them experienced the kind of oppression that American Blacks have had to endure over the last 300 years. In fact all my relatives participated directly and indirectly in the oppression of Blacks within the history of this country on some level and racism was very much a part of my family growing up. To suggest that being Irish gives you some kind of free pass or that their exists some kind of kindred spirit in some self imagined kinship within the very real violence of white American supremacy in history is an insult to all Blacks. It’s an absolute denial in self refection meant to take responsibility away from being white.
Mirkwood doesn’t speak for the Irish and only for himself.
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@MJB,
Good point.
Among all the Irish-Americans I ever met, I wouldn’t say ALL were hopelessly racist, but all have loads of racist uncles and grandmothers and parents that even they point out as being hopelessly racist (although, I believe pointing fingers at “racist uncles” is a telltale sign that the finger pointer is also rather racist, ie, if they feel the need to point out someone who is even more racist than they).
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@ Jefe
Right, EPGAH functions as a Racist Uncle for Lord of Mirkwood. He has used him repeatedly on this blog in just that way.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
You can be anti-capitalist and still be racist. You can even be anti-racist and still be a racist. Just like how serious Christians can still be sinners.
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Mz. Nikita. Fan…, Sharina, Michael Jon Barker, much appreciated.
@Michael Jon Barker
I tend to look at world from a ‘wholistic’ point of view and not from a parochial political, ideological or religious lens, hence, I cannot be drawn into others codified thought no matter from which persuasion.
Paradigm shift….. I think that would be derived from insight and right attention, proceeding from compassion and empathy, which I think is the foundation of it all, which shines from your writing.
Bobby Sands and the other prisoners of Maze prison highlighted the plight of the Irish and there was a great sense of solidarity from many quarters. I was nourished on the work of the ineffable James Joyce, one of Ireland’s greatest sons, before James Baldwin and Steve Biko. It was through James Joyce’s Ulysses, that I somewhat have an idea of the Irish struggle against the British- ‘brutish’ who are comprised of ‘beer, business, bibles, bulldogs, battleships, b*ggery and bishops.
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@LOM
“They wanted to lynch me and cut my head off and chop my body into 20 pieces.”—I prefer slow torture. Just goes to show how lost in your own world you are.
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@LOM
Honestly you should go into politics. You lie as well as any politician.
“When have I systematically deleted people’s comments?”—Regularly. You delete comments on the basis of people calling you out on your bs. You have deleted a comment of mine on your blog for it. Gro Jo has spoken on you deleting his and even V8 once spoke of his not appearing. You gave the convenient glitch excuse. You seem to always have a convenient excuse.
AS for me lynching and battering you, grow some balls. I need a mob to lynch you and if disputing your bs is battering then you really have issues.
In regards to your “They live on Indigenous land too.”—I do. So did my indigenous ancestors before me and theirs before them. You know nothing about me and I prefer it that way. Makes it all too easy to watch you make a a** of yourself.
People are not making up stuff about you. You are simply showing who you really are. What you want is people dumb enough not to see it. You won’t find that here, but you will find that on your blog.
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@MJB
“That’s why he keeps the other troll around on his blog. To make himself feel that he is “fighting racism”.”—Excellent point.
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Mirkwood, what the heck was that?
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Mirkwood your end all answer of socliasim does not to address racsim. It’s a deflection.
Their are plenty of soclialst countries that are just as racist as the United States.
Greece is a utopian socialist country with 70% of the GNP produced through government jobs. They have the racist Golden Dawn represented within their population. Furthermore they are bankrupt.
I do believe that Capitalism needs to be culled but I’m not willing to do away with it completly. I would be for a mixed economy in the U.S. with nationalizing oil. That would cut oil prices by 50% and lower the overall cost of products that have transpertation costs. The military industrial complex is their to insure oil continues to flow. Taking away the profit motive might dial back military interventions. I also think the banking sysytem needs to have limits on what they can charge people for interest. Credit cards are predatory. Abolishing I.P. and limiting patent law to three years would do away with billion dollar vertical hierarchies like Microsoft. It would level the economy naturally.
The truth is we live in a Randian world now. Ann Rand opposed government intervention in business but she would be fine with the partnership governments have with business, Corporations and banks. It’s State sponsored Capitalism I oppose not the free interaction of trade amongst individuales or other businesses.
I don’t want to derail this thread with economics so won’t take it any further.
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^^^^LOL at LOM. “By the way, EPGAH seems to have gone quiet. Maybe he’s realized there are better things to be doing with his life than being a racist.”
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@Herneith
LOM seems to want a cookie for “defending” you. LOL
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Politicians swear on many things and still lie. So….
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I think Mirkwood viewing himself as “not racist” is typical of the vast majority of American whites including conservatives that Mikwood sees as the root of all evil.
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@ Michael Barker
Even EPGAH does not see himself as a racist.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Recommended for you:
You do all of those things, as if you were acting from a script or something.
Each one is a defence mechanism White people have for not seeing how racist they truly are.
If so many people of colour from different parts of the country, and even different parts of the world, say you are being racist, then more likely than not they are right and you are only fooling yourself.
This is not an “attack”. This is not a “lynching”. There are no hounds. This is friendly advice.
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@ Pumpkin
I won’t forget. Thanks.
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@ Kiwi
LOL. He still has to get past all of them.
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@Kiwi
That is exactly what came to mind reading his recent comment. The Tone Argument.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
You can add the tone argument to the list. Kiwi thoughtfully provided the link.
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re: Abagond’s comment
Exactly what I was thinking and was going to post something until I ran across this statement from Abagond.
Pointing out someone’s racism that he is blind to is not attacking or lynching anyone. It is indeed just friendly advice. On the contrary, I think most commenters have been quite cordial.
A few times on this blog, some people pointed out something racist I said and I highly appreciate it. There is no need to be so defensive and accuse people of attacking oneself. The better response is to say “Thank you” or “I see what you mean”.
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A question regarding the comparison betwenn Irish-Americans and Jewish Americans: As far as I understand it the social status of these groups in American between 1850 and 1950 is fairly comparable, as is their background of oppression in Europe. Yet the Jews in America have made common cause with Black Americans – while not being immune to anti-black racism, the Irish Americans on the other hand were among the most aggressive enemies of blacks and haven’t made common couse with them at any point. Is there an explanation for that discrepancy?
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@Kartoffel – I suspect you’d have to look at the difference between earlier and later immigration. From what I’ve read, the earlier Jewish immigrants weren’t all that different from other immigrants. But later on there started to be more Jews immigrating who were educated professionals and intellectuals. It was a different demographic of people who were probably on average more socially liberal.
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@Kartoffel
“Is there an explanation for that discrepancy?”—Nice question and very good observation. You have me curious now as well.
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@Benjamin David Steele
Nice response. I like to think the Irish saw an opportunity that they would not get at home. Maintain being white at whatever cost. One could look at it as taking advantage of a situation.
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Wow.. I tried to find an article that notes anywhere in American history where Irish-Americans sided with Blacks. I would have settled for just one.
Abagond’s blog is school for many people and some are just in need of more academic remediation than are others.
So maybe LoM is sincere in seeking his ally status but he just doesn’t know or understand how to go about it.
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“So maybe LoM is sincere in seeking his ally status but he just doesn’t know or understand how to go about it.”
That may very well be the case… but in this day and age with the plethora of information available – and all sorts of ” _______ For Dummies” books/themes out there, I find it extremely difficult to believe he simply can’t hear/comprehend/learn what he has been given here by multiple people here, or elsewhere.
Perhaps it”s even more true than I previously imagined that many white people cannot or won’t believe people that are not white. Or even other white people, in some instances.
Whatever.. Most importantly, this blog has taught me that I, no matter what, can’t fix another’s person’s delusions.
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LOM seems to want a cookie for “defending” you. LOL
Sorry don’t bake. I gave Mirkwood advice as to how to deal with this EPIGRAPH(or whatever their moniker is), but he didn’t take it. EPIGRAPH came to my blog and I put paid to his nonsense with two words. I will let you guess as they are moderated here. As Fan so rightly wrote, one cannot cure these folks of their delusions, so why try? It’s like farting in a wind tunnel. The only way they change is to experience an epiphany or some life altering experience. The likelihood, otherwise is almost nil.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Your cookie is available for pickup here:
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The Irish were never enslaved in Barbados.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slaves-myth-2369653-Oct2015/?utm_source=shortlink
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
In Northern Ireland, Irish Catholics are at the wrong end of the stick. In the US they are holding the stick.
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Regarding the recommendations Abagond posted for Mirkwood.
I think some of the things I write on this blog come off as paternalistic as well it’s just more subtle.
While it’s easy for me to demolish Mirkwood’s world view as well conservatives and liberals I’m real short on offering practical alternatives. My solutions are so radical they will never see the light of day. So I don’t really know how to put humpty dumpty back together again.
I also have a tendency to make what I write about me and my “solutions”.
When I argue here against white supremecy that “insulates” me from my whiteness. So while Mirkwood is pointing fingers at conservatives, Republicans ect I’m pointing fingers at all white people. That acts as a deflection away from myself. The end result is simular to what Mirkwood does so while I am clearly against white supremecy I’m really no different then Mirkwood in intentions.
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“I think some of the things I write on this blog come off as paternalistic as well it’s just more subtle.”
.
True. But your subtle (or not) paternalistic tendencies can be dealt with, while the race realist positions – and absolutely clueless white (or purposely obtuse) attitudes that others bring here are exceedingly intolerable.
We see you at least appearing to try to understand how WHITENESS creates superiority and inferiority classifications, and rule according to this construct. It’s a life-long process, unlearning the mental conditioning WHITENESS afflicts on everyone. At least you’re on the path to recovery.
.
“When I argue here against white supremecy that “insulates” me from my whiteness.”
.
Care to explain how, in depth..?
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..exceedingly *intolerable should be exceedingly hopeless.
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What do you think of the above Abagond? What explains these facts? It can’t be racism. Think hard.
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@ Gregoire – “Poverty” is the cause of crime (across all racial lines).
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“What do you think of the above Abagond? What explains these facts? It can’t be racism. Think hard.”
.
lol
I think you’re the one who needs to REALLY THINK hard, after you read this.
Please come back and share your thoughts – again.
I can’t wait!!!
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@Fan …
Even without providing him that link, we can always take a look at the amount of overturned convictions going on these days which makes those numbers even more misleading. Granted only arrests are reported in those not convictions. I do wonder how the FBI will sort all that out.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/record-number-of-wrongful-convictions-overturned-in-2013/
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@Jefe
“A few times on this blog, some people pointed out something racist I said and I highly appreciate it.”—That is the difference between you and LOM. He is not interested in learning. His goal is to gain support for his cause and his alone. If he had an ounce of an open mind or thought he would be willing to hear and understand the other side and realize that he is racist in order to make a valid change. In his mind he is not flawed.
@Michael Baker
It takes a lot to admit that and to be frank…we are all learning. We all have a bit of racist thoughts and mindsets we have to deal with and push past. No one is perfect, but my issue with LOM is he acts as if he is. As if the racist bug did not get him. On top of that I am sick of his “I know what is good for you people” attitude.
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@Gregoire
Proper location for this discussion.
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@ Fan.
What I’m getting at is that arguing against white supremecy doesn’t seperate a white person from the racsim that’s hard wired into his psyche.
So being an “anti racist” is a bit of an oxymoron. I’m making arguments through the lens of non whites as I perceive them not as a person who has experienced racisim.
So being “self aware” can give you a false sense that you are seperate from all the racism and oppression around you, that you are not part of that. That is what I mean by insulating yourself from whiteness. It can function as a deflection.
If I was raised soley around white people it’s unlikely I’d be at this blog and would be just as clueless as most whites are.
Growing up in L.A. having two bi racial kids, my present wife black and all my employees immigrants I have a different perspective. When I run into bigots and racism it’s much more personal. When people disrespect my family they are disrespecting me. That is kind of paternalistic but more natural since it is founded in empathy.
Mirkwood has an intellectual understanding of racism and his “anti racsim” is like an ideology he has added to his world view.
Mine is coming from a different place. People I care about and my own sense of seeking truth and wanting real justice within society.
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WAY WAY WAAY OFF TOPIC: Black crime.
No. Simply no.
You do not get to derail one Broken Record with another:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/broken-record-dept/
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@Michael Barker
Thank you.
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@Fan…
I responded to your comment here.
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@ Michael Barker
You are massively more self-aware than Lord of Mirkwood.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Please put your YouTube links in parens, not square brackets.
Thank you.
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@Mirkwood
It’s likely your ancestors traveled from Cork Ireland but we’re from some other town within Ireland. The vast majority of the Irish who came to the U.S. traveled through Cork as it was a major trading hub.
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Mirkwood, are you American or Irish?
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This reprobate would like us to sympathise with Irish Americans – whilst his ancestors were ‘pulling themselves up by their bootstraps’, getting paid $4.60 a month in the nineteenth century, African Americans were still chattel slaves.
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I will not get myself dirty by stooping to this racist’s level.
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taotesan
“I will not get myself dirty by stooping to this racist’s level.”—-Don’t blame you. He is delusional.
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@ sharinair
Until now, this fool writing the most dastardly things under the banner of being an anti-racist ally (clever trick), I thought he was an incorrigible wilfully obtuse (psychopathic) racist that would never get it. But his last comment cemented re: easy dismissal of African American enslavement and trivialization of apartheid, that he is unequivocally a psychopathic racist TROLL.
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There is a super easy way to tell that Irish Americans had it better than Black Americans in slave times: the Underground Railroad ran in only one direction.
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@ Abagond
First time I had heard of the Underground Railroad. Did a quick search on it have a bit of reading on it tonight. Thank you.
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@ taotesan
I have not done a post on the Underground Railroad, but I did do one on Harriet Tubman, its best-known conductor:
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EPGAH has found comfort and a second home at Mirkwood’s blog. Makes for hilarious reading if you can get past the long drawn out bloviating!
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@Lord of Mirkwood
If Irish don’t “benefit from white privilege in any way,” then how was Andrew Lewis able to vote and serve in the Virginia State legislature?
How did Collin Ferrell land the role as Alexander “the Great” in Alexander?
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No surprise you dodged the questions.
“There are black governors and senators.”
LOL…not in 18th century Virginia…
Andrew Lewis was born in Ireland in 1720 but somehow was able to vote and serve in the Virginia legislature in the 1770s at a time when blacks born in Virginia could not hold office or vote. How is that not white privilege?
And what about Collin Ferrell? How was an Irishman selected to play a Macedonian in a Hollywood blockbuster?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
What are you talking about? Northern Ireland is not part of the US. However bad the Irish have it Northern Ireland or however bad they had it in the US in the 1800s, today, right now in the US, they benefit from White privilege.
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Both the Irish in Ireland and the English in England benifit from white privilage.
The Irish that want succession from English rule do so because of their own sense of national identity. It doesn’t have anything to do with white privilage.
In America ALL white people benifit from white privilage. If you can’t wrap your mind around that then your no different then the conservative Republicans you like to point fingers at.
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@abagond
Once again, he dodges questions about white privilege and instead makes it about something else.
I don’t think he grasps that your post is not about the Irish but about the fallacy of his racist “What about the Irish” argument. And his racist response that “The big divide is economic” is a good example.
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The only Irish people I understand that are treated differently and with some prejudice are the travellers.
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3024613/Stars-Big-Fat-Gypsy-Wedding-claim-English-girls-t-dress-unique-style-Grand-National.html)
Whilst they are on these programmes they are entertaining, their lifestyles fascinating and curious. But they are not often welcome in most establishments patroned by general public.
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Without reading his fake sob story, it’s clear he still doesn’t get this thread is not about he Irish or him.
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@Omnipresent: I have read about those Travelers they are like the Roma people.
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Mirkwood
Here’s an article in the Irish times detailing the racsim of the Irish against Africans.Note that the article is written not by the BBC or American media but the Irish. That is what I mean when I say the Irish benifit from white privilage in Ireland.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/black-africans-face-most-racist-abuse-in-ireland-says-report-1.2146079
Here’s another article explains how racsim in Ireland isn’t just against Blacks but Asians, Muslims and immigrants are targeted as well.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/government-in-denial-over-reality-of-racism-in-ireland-1.2148672
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Mirkwood
Apperently they hate Arabs in Ireland too. My apologies for leaving them off the list of people the Irish hate.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/12/racism-northern-ireland-couple-tell-abuse-belfast
White supremecy isn’t just confined to the U.S.
The Irish benifit from white privilage in the U.S. and in Ireland.
The only oppression you’d ever experience would be if you paid me to come to New England to beat you with a stick.
My great grandmother came from Cork Ireland. It’s unknown where her family originally came from. Her maiden name was Mc Kippage. She worked in a sweat shop in New York as a teenager and was illiterate. The man she met was an American of English heritage who had a master’s in mathmatics. He taught her to read, write, add and subtract. He would be what we would call today a “nerd”. She must have been cute. She converted over to Epicapalian which is simular to Catholic in form. She died an hour before I was born in the hospital I was born in. They say our souls passed through the same door and that it is a good omen.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Once again, Northern Ireland is not part of the US. The bias in US news about Northern Ireland is not about Irish Americans and their White privilege.
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@ resw77
He could not understand my post to save his life.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Not being bullied at school is not part of White privilege. Tons of White people experience it, some of them BECAUSE they are White. “I was beat up by Black kids at school” is almost a Broken Record, used to prove that Whites, *sniff*, experience racism too.
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Yes a Mirkwood I am. Some of the Irish who have experienced oppression from the English similarly oppress those who are different from them. They express bigoted assumptions about others within their own country and benifit from being white. The same dynamic happened when the Irish assimilated into American society.
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I don’t understand your mockery of me. Maybe my average I.Q. doesn’t permit me to appreciate your brilliance.
I and others have presented evidence to you in an attempt to break through your denial. I gave you a reality check to show you how things are today in Ireland and America.
It is you that needs to re-examine your idiology and adjust to how the world is as opposed to how you wish to see the world through your limited lens. Sure their are things we agree on. But your rooted in denial that directly affects how you see yourself. You need to let that go because it’s not worth holding onto.
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It’s unusual that a white progressive would deny white privilage. But maybe I’m assuming to much.
You have created a social construct of yourself rooted in Irish identity on top of being white. That is obstructing your ability to see the world as it truly is. I’m saying you need to lose that. I’m not saying that you should become “raceless”.
Their is no singular idiology that will save the world anymore then their is a pristine culture that all values should be derived from.
Rather the challange is coexistence and that means respecting your neighbors values even if you strongly disagree with them. If your neighbor isn’t interfering with your life, liberty or property then you have no right to interfer in your neighbors affairs. Thats true on an individuale as well as a State or religious level.
The proper role of government is to limit the violence some groups have over others. Anything beyond that tends to favor one group over others whether it’s race, economics or religion.
Liberty is about the right to peruse your dreams without someone agressing against you. It’s not about a singular idiology all must be forced to abide by but rather the right to choose whatever idiology you wish to be a part of.
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LoM
Do you honestly believe that people of Irish extraction are as overtly discriminated against as Irish Travellers?
On a side note, I remember when the film the Commitments came out in the 90’s, suddenly every major American film star was ‘discovering’ Irish heritage. Even 20 odd years ago no-one tried to hide their Irish heritage due to fear of discrimination.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
The Broken Africa stereotype is a feature of prejudiced anti-Black thinking. The pro-British line the US press takes on Northern Ireland does not seem to come from prejudice against Irish Americans. Nor does it bounce back on Irish Americans: as White people, they are seen as individuals, as part of the “us”, not part of some faceless, dangerous Other.
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Aye Laddie, County Cork it were! So they said anyway.
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Mirkwood is an African Holocaust denier. He is a liar of the worst sort.
This sick fantasy of ‘Irish were slaves’ is an internet viral sensation dreamt up by Irish Nationalists and Stormfront racists to deny the real Holocaust of African Americans. Never in the history of the world, has the Irish ever been subjected to chattel slavery, ever. Full stop.
This falsification of history of ‘Irish slaves’ is predicated upon the wilful misuse of ‘slavery’ and false conflation of indentured servitude and to that of chattel slavery. Indentured servitude was a form of bonded labour, whereupon Irish immigrants agreed to work for a set period of time usually between two and seven years, in return for the cost of the voyage across the Atlantic.
Chattel slavery meant kidnapped Africans were treated as absolute things, at the whim of the master, sadistically overworked beyond human endurance till death in perpetuity for centuries. It remains one of, if not the very worst chapter in world history.
This mockery and denial of history serves to silence African Americans in their call for reparations and to diminish the centuries of horror of chattel slavery and further white supremacist causes.
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Liam Hogan is a historian who wrote: ‘The myth of “Irish slaves” in the colonies’.
“White indentured servitude was so very different from black slavery as to be from another galaxy of human experience,” as Donald Harman Akenson put it in If the Irish Ran the World: Montserrat, 1630-1730. How so? Chattel slavery was perpetual, a slave was only free once they they were no longer alive; it was hereditary, the children of slaves were the property of their owner; the status of chattel slave was designated by ‘race’, there was no escaping your bloodline; a chattel slave was treated like livestock, you could kill your slaves while applying “moderate correction” and the homicide law would not apply; the execution of ‘insolent’ slaves was encouraged in these slavocracies to deter insurrections and disobedience, and their owners were paid generous compensation for their ‘loss’; an indentured servant could appeal to a court of law if they were mistreated, a slave had no recourse for justice. And so on..”
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Mr. Hogan continues:
A dangerous myth:
“The prevalence and endurance of this myth is partly due to the fact that it is buttressed by two long-standing narratives. The first narrative comes from the arena of Irish nationalism, where the term ‘slavery’ is used to highlight the political, social and religious subjugation or persecution that the Irish have historically suffered. In this narrative, the term ‘Irish slaves’ refers specifically to those who were forced onto transport ships and sold into indentured servitude in the West Indies during the Cromwellian era.
The ‘innocent’ usage of this phrase is, to a degree, understandable and its conflation with chattel slavery generally occurs due to a mixture of ignorance and confusion. More objectionable is the canon of pseudo-history books like O’Callaghan’s To Hell or Barbados or Walsh and Jordan’s White Cargo, which knowingly conflate indentured servitude and chattel slavery. The ‘Irish slaves’ myth is also a convenient focal point for nationalist histories as it obscures the critically underwritten story of how so many Irish people, whether Gaelic, Hiberno-Norman or Anglo-Irish, benefited from the Atlantic slave trade and other colonial exploits in multiple continents for hundreds of years.
The second narrative is of a more sinister nature. Found in the websites and forums of white supremacist conspiracy theorists, this insidiously claims that indentured servitude can be equated with chattel slavery. From Stormfront.org, a self-described online community of white nationalists, to David Icke’s February 2014 interview with Infowars.com, the narrative of the ‘White slaves’ is continuously promoted.”
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In ‘The myth of “Irish slaves” in the colonies’. Mr. Hogan explains:
By blurring the lines between the different forms of unfree labour, these white supremacists seek to conceal the incontestable fact that these slavocracies were controlled by—and operated for the benefit of—white Europeans. This narrative, which exists almost exclusively in the United States, is essentially a form of nativism and racism masquerading as conspiracy theory. Those that push this narrative have now adopted the ‘Irish slaves’ myth, and they use it as a rhetorical ‘attack dog’ which aims to shut down all debate about the legacy of black slavery in the United States.
mirkwood is on the wrong site- he should hand hold with the pointy hats over at stormfront..
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When the British government finally abolished slavery in most of its colonies on 1 August 1834, it paid slave owners over £20 million in compensation for the loss of their “property.”
Amongst the claimants were THOUSANDS of Irish slavers.
So, not only were the Irish never chattel slaves, they were the slave masters of chattel slaves!
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Mr Hogan documents some Irish families that received compensation. This is one such family.
(N.B. not easy reading)
“Peter and William Diggs La Touche, private bankers in Dublin, received a payment of nearly £7,000 for their 396 slaves on two plantations in Jamaica. These plantations were previously owned by their relatives who were planters on the island. By 1818 the La Touches owned 500 slaves. That same year, one of their slaves was recorded to have died due to “eating dirt”. The phenomenon of slaves eating dirt was likely due to malnutrition (particularly of protein, calcium and iron) or even suicidal intent. Thus a weakened slave eating mud would have precipitated a quicker death. Many planters of course, did not wish for their “stock” to expire any quicker than was “natural.” As a solution any slaves caught eating dirt, wore “dirt-eater masks.” This method of torture gained the maximum value from their “investment” while prolonging their slave’s suffering.”
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There is an on-line data base with the names of Irish slave-masters that received compensation. I could not locate it.
On (http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slaveowners-compensation-1587899-Jul2014/) is a 14 page PDF revealing all the Irish claimants.
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@ Abagond
May I ask you to amend this sentence: “The Irish were driven off their land, massacred, scalped, sent to Barbados and elsewhere as slaves”? They were indentured servants.
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http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elves_of_Mirkwood
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien#Family_origins
“After his mother’s death, Tolkien grew up in the Edgbaston area of Birmingham and attended King Edward’s School, Birmingham, and later St. Philip’s School. In 1903, he won a Foundation Scholarship and returned to King Edward’s. While a pupil there, Tolkien was one of the cadets from the school’s Officers Training Corps who helped “line the route” for the 1910 coronation parade of King George V. Like the other cadets from King Edward’s, Tolkien was posted just outside the gates of Buckingham Palace.”
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I stated point blank in the post that some Irish people were made into slaves once upon a time.
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@ Lord Of Mirkwood
“Stormfront is the site of the Ku Klux Klan, which is Republican (so I hate it) and they hate Irish Catholics as much as black people. I would be dead if I stepped within twenty feet of a Klan rally.”
As much? In the present day? Really? Can you back that up?
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ugh the silmarillion was torturous i hung it up after the rings trilogy, the hobbit, and farmer giles of ham, smith of wooton major! whatever
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@taotesan:
It is useless providing information, he still won’t believe you. He demands information to back up ones arguments but when one does, he still doesn’t believe them.
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@lotr its just called talking? online, maybe giving you a subtle ribbing? i reckon, but i’m not irish but i identify as irish but i’m mostly irish? idk
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
You said:
As “proof” that the Klan would kill you, you bring up stuff from the 1920s or their guilt-by-association with stuff in Northern Ireland. That is a stretch.
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Mirkwood
The British Empire was replaced with the American Empire. You should direct your displeasure their.
Isn’t the Celtic cross an Irish Catholic symbol? Why is Stormfront using it on their home page as their logo ?
http://adl.org/combating-hate/hate-on-display/c/celtic-cross.html
Tolkien was an anarchist. You should take his advise particularly the part about “bossing other men.”
“My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy. The most improper job of any man, even saints, is bossing other men. There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power stations. I hope that, encouraged now as patriotism, may remain a habit.”
The whole idea behind the Hobbit was to show how destructive the State could be. Thus the Battle of Five armies …
The Ring makes its wearer invisible the same way you can’t see your own white supremacy.
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@ Linda @ taosetan @ Lord of Mirkwood, etc
I hope to do a post on Irish slavery in the coming week. If you want to provide any useful links or suggestions of what to look into, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Does the PRESENT-DAY Klan hate Irish AMERICANS as much as Black Americans? If so, can you back up that claim?
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@ michaeljohnbarker
Right. In a thousand years only history buffs will know that the British and American empires were not the same thing.
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The crux of the matter this Irish American Catholic Nationalist (mirkwood) whose ancestors could well be slave-masters of chattel slaves, supports the genocide against the First Peoples of America, denies the African Holocaust (slavery in America) and thinks Black suffering in the worst racist regime (apartheid South Africa) ever, is something to mock.
How indistinguishable is this level of hatred of humanity any different from the plethora of white supremacist hate groups out there?
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@ Lord of Mirk, who on Fri 2 Oct 2015 at 11:24:15, said: “Abagond, I hate to say it, but this post actually made me vomit. Well, it was good up until the “what makes the argument racist” part. I actually agree that sometimes it can be used in a racist way (by non-Irish Anglos) to belittle black people, but I draw the line at calling the Irish perpetrators of racism. I. Draw. The. Line.”
Is this an Irish cannot be racist argument or a no true Irishman can be racist argument? Given the O’Reilly as apostate allusion, I suppose it wouldn’t take long on another forum before you pulled the no true Democrat card.
Excuse me for not reading this thread’s entire month of comments, but I hope that someone pointed out that “it can be used in a racist way” is precisely the motivation for using it: an attempt to float a false equivalence and downplay white supremacist culture firmly rooted in the US.
As for Stephen Colbert as some kind of anti-racist hero. Great. I’m sure his heart is pure. Whatever. But he has only ever provided a comfy chair for the big name politicians on his shows, which is particularly disappointing considering the blistering he laid on Dubs the year he hosted the WH Correspondents’ Dinner. Given the friendly face he puts on the military state and the utter destruction of satire by way of allowing money’d candidates and sitting functionaries a platform to humanize themselves — as if they don’t have enough friendly exposure — he is but a servant to institutionalized racist state policies both foreign and domestic.
That he is seen as the cream of the crop of American satire sets the high-bar lower and establishes a problematic framework for what constitutes an informed public, evidenced in the unwitting irony of your “for ever O’Reilly there is a Colbert”.
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mirkwood said:
“What does Tolkien have to do with this? I don’t hate British people, just the British Empire. Tolkien is my favorite author”
sorry buddy i wasn’t trying to be obtuse, just let the record show that tolkien wasn’t british by birth but he sure wound up a brit, and mirkwood is from tolkien i have documented that extensively in this thread and you are 26+1=eire kind of guy it don’t make no sense deriving your online persona from a british author
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ok, hence the ‘mild ribbing’ comment, i’m just kind of playing with you a bit here?
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at mmirkwood my business plan is to make some factories in reading and philadelphia pa and have a convicted felon hiring policy and you?
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Mirkwood
You still can’t answer Abagonds question.
My point was you could go to a klan rally today wearing your Celtic cross and people would come up and give you big hugs lol
The British don’t have an Empire today and act as America’s strongest ally next to Isreal.
The Scott’s voted against independence and chose to stay with Britian. Remember they are Celt by race just like the Irish. If the British were racists against Celt’s why is it they treated the Scots different ?
American imperialism started in 1776 and is the largest Empire in the history of mankind.
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hopefully around april next year i’ll get my driver’s license back and get my elecrictian licenses in philly and reading and i can see my kids, dude
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@MJB
But did you notice how much Prime Minister Cameron kowtowed to Xi Jinping last week? They have turned into an obedient, subservient puppy dog.
They also joined the AIIB as a founding member, which could be interpreted as throwing the USA under the bus.
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your grace lol
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like in star wars when han solo was calling princess leia your worship
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
The US is hardly anti-British these days. The examples you gave are from the 1700s and 1800s. Since then it has fought on its side in two world wars. They are now steadfast military allies.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Since you like to bring up Ireland to deflect from Irish Americans, how about this in today’s Guardian:
More:
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/nov/02/revealed-trafficked-migrant-workers-abused-in-irish-fishing-industry
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@LOM
Did I forget to remind you how delusional you are? Unless a commenter is praising the Irish they are those things in your book.
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Maybe it’s my imagination but I seem to have detected a double standard in how Mirkwood views me as a white
commenter as opposed to the other non white commenters on this blog.
He is quick to call out non white commenters as racist and use less then flattering language yet he has yet to do that to me and I am just as critical of his commentary as many here are.
Why is that ? Is it because he sees himself as not racist so therefore I must be not racist as well ? Only non white people who call him out are the racists ?
I suspect he see’s race in spite of his “it’s not race but class” perspective and that certain commenters have got under his claw because they challange his percieved superiority and then the racism he claims he doesn’t have rises to his defense.
Every rubber duck he’s floated out their I’ve blown up. But I don’t get the burn ….
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*feel the Bern …
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Considering that you’re an ATTENTION/AGENDA TROLL/PRICK you’re damn lucky that any of us commenters give you the time of day.
You don’t even deserve that.
What you do deserve is an extended stay at your local neighborhood asylum!
But since you’re here, why should I not have some fun kicking the over bloated football (that’s you!) around as you richly deserve. Which by the way has nothing at all to do with you being Irish as much as it has to do with you being a clueless/hopeless nincompoop. You come to our house and disrespect us time after time, and we’re supposed to just take it? STFU and quit your whining!
If it gets too hot here in the kitchen of your own making, you do have a blog to retreat to.
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@LoM
Can you give specific examples of that, as I don’t recall those commenters acting in that way.
@mjb
It is difficult to know what he means or perceives. Give him 1000 examples of blatant racism performed by him and he doesn’t see a solitary speck of it. I really would like to know where he perceives his allegation above.
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I had to Google what hibernophobic meant. I had this picture of bears hibernating in my head lol. Apperently it has to do with anti Irish sentiment. I’m Irish; does that mean I’m a self hating Irishman because I won’t pretend to be oppressed ?
I find my roots interesting but I don’t need them to build an identity around. I’m white and I get all the privilages associated with that. I don’t need to reinforce an identity that’s all ready obvious.
I didn’t have any control over what race I was born as but I do have control over how I act now. I may not be able to rewire my brain but I can learn to think differently. Mirkwood may view me as not racist but he doesn’t get that I am one naturally by default.
As I have told Mirkwood before he needs to let that go of that identity that he feels so strongly in protecting. That doesn’t mean his family history is irrelevant or less meaningful. Nor does it mean that his grandfather’s experiences can’t be a part of who he is.
What matters is how he is percieved in society today. What matters is how he acts in society today.
Are you going to listen to those who have their lives interfered with dailey because of racism ? Or are you going to hold onto the oppression of the Irish and pretend that Irish history somehow insulates you from being a part of white racism today ?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I agree with Jefe. I do not remember this. You will have to refresh my memory and give examples. Quote something someone said and say why it is anti this or pro that.
I am not you, nor did I just reread this thread, but IN GENERAL it seems that people give you a hard time because you are being wilfully obtuse and blind to your own racism. You act like a typical clueless White person. It seems to have little to do with your being Irish or Catholic or Northern or anything like that.
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@LOM
I was just re-reading all the comments on this thread. I want to bring to your attention that you have a following of commenters who are Hibernophobic (anti-Irish), anti-Catholic, hateful of anything to do with Celtic culture, harboring antipathy towards Irish-Americans, conservative, pro-Confederate, pro-corporations, and did I mention anti-Irish?
If you want to read something that is really Hibernophobic (yet funny):
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Potato_Famine_Denial
http://www.revisionism.nl/Potato/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm
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@LOM
Isn’t it interesting that you falsely accuse me of something and can’t seem to find a quote where I did it, yet again.
I will say of the quotes you found from others none of them seem to indicate they called you a drunk as a result of being Irish, but because you would have to be to say the things you say.
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@LoM
In addition to selecting examples, could you explain how they are specifically anti-Irish? They sound more personal about you than about anti-Irish sentiment (ie, some kind of blanket negative statement about Irish people). If I am missing something, please explain it to me.
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“Then perhaps you need to ease up on your consumption of said wine. It seems that something has you blocked from what’s so very obvious to 99.9% of the regulars commenters. Why are you practically the only one here that doesn’t get what everyone else does?”
@Lord of Sawdust
If you reach any higher you’re might actually touch Pluto!
How about this?
“You, lord of idiots, are an absolute and total tool!” … to state the obvious in your own vernacular.
Let’s see you turn that into something that’s anti-irish, you whiny incessant prick!
Like I said, if you don’t like it here, please leave. This isn’t a place to get warm fuzzies for YOUR feelings or YOUR never ending, tiresome, pro-Irish, pro-Bernie, pro-Democrat, agenda.
You’re lucky you haven’t yet been called:
{{{ “JANE, YOU IGNORANT SLUT!!!” }}}
(from SNL)
If you don’t like the insults, then stop insulting us with your nonsense.
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He is quick to call out non white commenters as racist and use less then flattering language yet he has yet to do that to me and I am just as critical of his commentary as many here are.
I suspect he suffers from the Irishman curse, it’s affected him greatly!
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NOTE: Going forward, you may only address Lord of Mirkwood as Lord of Mirkwood or some shortened version thereof (LOM, Mirkwood, etc). No Lordy. No Lord of Sawdust, no Lord of Idiots, etc. Not even LOTR. That is a rule of my comment policy. I have been lax because it seemed good-natured teasing and he did not seem to mind, but it is starting to get out of hand. So, unless you use a proper form of his name, I will delete your comment. And, just for the record, he did not email me or something complaining.
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Mirkwood.
Nobody takes the Irish sterotype that the Irish drink too much any more seriously then they do about lepricons. “Drinking, fighting and fu***ng” isnt blatent racism that is interfering with Irish lives today.
But people do take the stereotypes that Black people are violent very seriously. Thats why Black people get shot, tazered, and harrased everyday in this country. Their is a whole list of racist assumptions that white people including yourself attach to Black people.
You do have a double standard. And what you really have a hard time accepting is that a Black women can be smarter then you.
But you want to feel hybernophobic. That makes you special. Thats weak Mirkwood. Thats just weak.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
So what?
You can afford to go to Florida every year, so I don’t think you have much to complain about.
Also, I have a problem with you wanting to be comfortable. Isn’t the whole point of going to a blog to be exposed to opposing viewpoints? What did you think you were signing up for? An echo chamber?
It just seems to me to be putting someone’s feelings ahead of the intellectual space that a blog should be. No one is physically intimidating you. This is on an entirely different plane.
If you don’t like a comment someone made, look away, or tell them you are offended. Talk to each other. Free speech and the ability to tolerate offence are the hallmarks of a free and open society.
References:
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Mirkwood
You want to feel special and to play victum when your not one. Thats weak and cowardly.
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Abagond wrote:
“…but IN GENERAL it seems that people give you a hard time because you are being wilfully obtuse and blind to your own racism. You act like a typical clueless White person. ”
.
Actually, he goes far beyond and beneath some typical clueless white person. The typical clueless will at least BE HONEST, consider, ponder, ask questions and might occasionally display an open mind. The clueless poster might actually try to see the other point of view.
What we’re seeing here is a NEW level of Willfully Obtuse while maintaining a self-professed guise of ally-ship. It’s so sickening that some here won’t acknowledge his presence in the slightest.
Need I say more?
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“Irish-Americans are in the worst position possible.”
And here we have a classic Q.E.D. moment: Not that you, LoM, or the Irish are racist. But that people who use the above argument in the context of racism against African Americans are only ever attempting to relativize someone else’s suffering. As opposed to the OP, which merely pointed out this fact — and not by relativizing the suffering of the Irish, historical or otherwise — but by highlighting the importance of context.
You have yet to deal with this aspect of the original topic and have up-to-now only engaged it what sounds like the historical baggage as it relates to your history at this particular website.
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Sorry, abagond, i used ‘lotr’ before i saw your warning – moddied
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You’re offended by the Irish being the oppressors or how removing corporations will not removed racism?
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LOM
Corporations may or may not be responsible for it, but I refuse to ignore the average white people who engage in it because you don’t like to hear the truth.
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LOM
Wrong. Victims to victimizer
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@Lord of Mirkwood
That has what to do with the average racist white person being racist? I will give you a hint…..NOTHING
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On the flip side the Civil War was not really about “freeing slaves” so those Irish American soldiers can not be made to take credit for it. Not to mention that does to absolve them of racism, which they happily practiced then and may actually do so now.
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@LOM
No, I sound like someone who has done research. What you presented was what they tell people who want to believe in a noble lie.
I am not defending the confederate or republicans (as they have nothing to do with this), but I am also not defending the union or Democrats.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-07-06/news/bs-ed-gettysburg-20130706_1_slavery-constitutional-convention-secession
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Oh and LOM…You may want to consider reading your sources beyond the title. It is getting sad and old that they end up supporting my stance. I quote
“But let’s not forget where “The Great Emancipator,” Abraham Lincoln, thought slavery fit into all this. Contrary to popular belief, he wasn’t an abolitionist, nor did he support social and political equality for black people. He voiced the primary goal of the war in a letter to abolitionist and publisher Horace Greeley.
“I would save the Union,” Lincoln wrote. As for enslaved Africans, they were just pawns in his war strategy: “If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it. … What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/22/civil-war-slavery_n_7639988.html
courtesy of your source.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Then you are well aware the article debunks your claim that the Civil war was about slavery. Your article coupled with mine and you are once again left acting like the delusional dunce.
In other words, ignore what he said in a letter he presumed would be private and displayed his true feelings and believe LOM.
“By the way, the “Civil War wasn’t about slavery” argument is mainly used by conservative neo-Confederates to say that slavery wasn’t really that bad, and the South was perfectly justified in seceding.”—That is a lie. Because the argument is in no way indicating or saying slavery was bad or good. The truth of the matter is that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery. It was at best an afterthought.
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Guys, there’s a bit of a cognitive dissonance on this blog.
Yeh, white people are f*cked up. But so are most people.
Okay, white people had horrible colonial empires, but so did a lot of other nations.
African nations would have done the same thing, given the opportunity.
I am Egyptian, the Egyptians did a lot of bad things too.
If Africans had enslaved white people, this blog would be a bunch of white people complaining about how bad black people are.
I am not white myself and I don’t feel like I need to keep going on about the ‘white racist’ people and develop all these crazy theories.
You guys don’t have anything better to do?
Abagond is either unemployed or the biggest white troll out there.
No matter you say, in terms of proportion, no race has had it as bad as Jewish people.
And 25% of Harvard students are Jewish.
They don’t spend their time comparing their plight to other people, they just get on with it and keep working.
You can call me ‘new black’ as much as you want, but I’m not going to sit around whining.
If we as black people want to do better then we need to follow the examples of other people and stop blaming everything on external factors.
This whole blog read likes a Phd in Bullshitology.
Romans killed Brits, Brits killed Irish, Irish killed Native Americans, Native Americans had their own empires where they killed other Native Americans, Americans killed Japanese, Japanese killed Chinese, Chinese killed Cambodians, Cambodians killed their own people. The loop goes on and on but all you keep talking about is the ‘white devil’.
It’s like you’ve all got Stockholm syndrome, you’re so obsessed with white people, its scary.
Who cares about white people, the world is a much bigger place.
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The civil war was largely about the economics behind slavery. True their were some Notheren abolitionist but Notherners weren’t dying for the civil rights of Blacks.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
” know, this is going insanely off topic. But Sharina brought up this boorish argument that needed to be debunked.”—Actually you brought it up here…https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/10/02/what-about-the-irish/#comment-300592
Do you ever get tired of lying?
“Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860 on an anti-slavery platform.”—Running on that platform does not mean he supported the cause. Hell Ben Carson is running as a Republican, but is openly claiming he is not Republican or Democrat.
“I repeat, the reason the South seceded was to protect slavery!!!”—You can repeat it, but it does not make it true. As a southern, not many if any of them claim the reason for the war was Slavery. Heck even many of my up north friends claim the war was not over slavery. No that that type of reasoning has become credible it looks like you still lose. Oh and don’t think I did not notice that you shifted goal posts. The issue is whether or not the Civil War was about slavery and so far all you have been presenting is reasons why the South seceded. Lincoln’s goal was to keep the Union together. I quote him as saying “I will say here, while upon this subject, that I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black races.” http://mason.gmu.edu/~zschrag/hist120spring05/lincoln_ottawa.htm
“Explain for me why any slaves who could ran away to Union lines.”—Because the Union needed more support/Soldiers so it promised freedom to those that fought for them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-schweitzer/slavery-and-the-civil-war_b_849066.html
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To add to my comment in moderation, If Lincoln is openly saying that he has no interest in interfering with slavery in the south, then what sense does it make for him to be going to war for it?
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“Speaking of the Civil War, 150,000 Irish-Americans served in the Union Army so that slavery could be ended. My great-great-great grandfather was killed by a Southern monster at Gettysburg.
Remember, Southern Sharina, you’re dealing with a Northerner and a Civil War expert.”
.
You are an expert of Bull Sh*t!
Explain to me why during the NYC draft riots, disgruntled Irishmen robbed a BLACK orphanage of its bedding and whatnot and then proceeded to burn it down to the ground.
Explain why an Irish mob, while rioting for a week, destroyed homes attacked, maimed, drowned, MUTILATED, burned and hung Black men who had done them no offense.
Explain to me why an Irish man, Patrick Butler, dragged the body of a Black man through the streets by its genitals.
I have no regard or sympathy whatsoever for you, or your overstated and pathetic agendas! You despicable racist of the lowest sort1
.http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html
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@Fan…
I feel the “It was the fault of the corporations” excuse coming on.
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LOM
Contribution to the Civil War or personal gain?
“Men from Ireland looking for work often joined the U.S. Army, for income and in order to find acceptance amongst Americans.”
Another something you seem to miss from your sources.
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@michaeljonbarker
“The civil war was largely about the economics behind slavery.”—From what I have read, slavery was not the major centerpiece we are often taught in school. The south tried to negotiate with the North to allow it to keep slavery. When they became the confederacy they did so with the idea that they would be backed by others who relied on products produced as a result of slavery.
Lincoln’s position was that he would do anything to maintain federal property and he refused to negotiate because he did not see them as a real government. He did not care about slavery either way. The reason he did finally attack the south was due to the south attacked Fort Sumter. A fort Lincoln considered Federal Property.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Actually you are not referring to facts. You are referring to your own idea of history.
“Understand that when I say things like “the corporations,” that also means “the super-rich,” “the elite,” “the 1%”, “the Right,” et cetera.”—I know what you mean when you say “the corporations” but you have not been able to prove that they are responsible for the average white person being racist. Racism is an act that white Americans have to and need to take responsibility for. You can’t continue to blame your racism on a corporate entity that you claim cares about no one. If they care about no one then they are not engaging in racism, but whites, including the Irish, do.
“the blame on Irish-Americans collectively”—Straw man because no one said anything about the Irish “collectively.”
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“To what excuse are you referring?”—What do you mean what excuse? I told Fan the excuse in you would use in the very comment. Are you that daft?
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Correction in which you would*
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Folks, since the Civil War is being discussed here I want to ask you a very important question. This question may be a clue as to why the South lost. Who co you think had the nicer uniform? The Rebs or the Union?
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To clarify what I’m getting at from Sharinalr link:
90% of the revenue generated for the Federal Government came from Tariffs.
“Foreign governments retaliated for it with tariffs of their own, and payment of those overseas levies represented the cost to Americans of their U. S. government. Southerners were generating two-thirds of U. S. exports, and also bearing two-thirds of the retaliatory tariffs abroad.”
“The result was that that the 18.5 percent of America’s citizens who lived in the South were saddled with three times their proportionate share of the federal government’s costs.”
That unequal burden in wealth redistribution was why the South considered succession. The South wanted to keep that tariff money within the South instead of having it spent in the North. The North realized that if the South succeeded from the Union they would loose that tariff money and the South would become more economically dominant then the North. Therefore the North’s only solution was to end slavery in the South to keep the South’s from becoming economically regionally dominant.
The Civil War wasn’t about giving Blacks civil rights or about giving the Black community any off the same rights as whites.
Mirkwood writes as if the North had some lofty egalitarian goal or higher moral value to oppose slavery. The poor Irish rallied to free Blacks in solidarity !!! Not so. His version is revisionist history.
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His version is revisionist history.
Yes, but you must admit it sounds romantic!
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Mirkwood said:
“Note that I do not say that blacks are not victimized. I am saying that I am, too.”
Give a detailed account of how you are personally victimized in your daily life. Show parallel evidence that you as an Irish American suffer the same indignities, racial profiling and economic interference in your life that Black Americans experience every day.
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I need to clarify this paragraph:
“The South wanted to keep that tariff money within the South instead of having it spent in the North. The North realized that if the South succeeded from the Union they would loose that tariff money and the South would become more economically dominant then the North.”
The U.S. imposed tariffs on imported items in part to raise tax money for the Federal government and in part to protect Northern industries from less expensive European made products. The South was against the Union using money generated from tariffs to build infrastructure in the North since Northern states had greater political influence. The higher Tariffs also affected the price of cotton as it meant England and other countries had less money to spend on cotton which drove the price of cotton down. Since the U.S. imposed tariffs on imported items from England likewise England had tariffs on cotton. The Federal government also had an export tax on cotton and tobacco. The South reasoned that with succession they would abolish tariffs which would both increase the value of cotton as well as bring down the price of imported goods. It would keep more money within the South to benefit their infrastructure.
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Further to L o M’s statement
Two decades after the Civil war, over 200,000 ethnic Chinese were driven from their homes in the USA, many killed, primarily by Irish-Americans so that they would not compete with them for jobs. My paternal great grandfather was lynched by a white mob including Irish-Americans in Oregon.
If I were to assume a similar attitude as LoM, should I call Irish-Americans monsters?
On the other hand, my mixed race maternal great great grandmother married an Irishmen in Georgia so that she could (presumably) be identified with a white family (and not be removed). Knowing this story, I see Irish as a stepping stone to white, even in the 19th century.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Fighting to free slaves during the America Civil War did not cure the North of racism. It is nowhere near that simple. Lincoln himself was racist. The North became MORE racist about a generation after the war.
Eric Garner was killed in the North in one of the bluest cities in the country. His killer was never even arrested.
As to Irish Americans, they stepped on the necks of both Black and Chinese Americans to get where they are. They are most certainly oppressors as a group.
Sometimes the oppressed become the worst oppressors. Just look at Israel.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Most Blacks came long after the 1800s. And when they did, Irish Americans joined the White flight, made possible by their Whiteness, something they have taken full advantage of since the late 1800s.
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@ Pumpkin
Lord of Mirkwood’s denialism keeps it going. “The Irish had it bad too” is an article of faith for him.
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@Abagond, Lord of Mirkwood
“As to Irish Americans, they stepped on the necks of both Black and Chinese Americans to get where they are. They are most certainly oppressors as a group.”
Good point. Irish Americans (as a group) staunchly opposed abolition, to the surprise of abolitionists in Ireland. In 1838 they burned down Pennsylvania Hall.
They demanded to not work alongside blacks and rioted black neighborhoods in several major cities during the 19th century, burning black churches, homes and killing black adults and children at random.
They literally drove blacks out of work, burning them at their jobs and killing their children, and refused to return to work until all the black workers were fired.
Probably the most well known Irish-American riot against blacks was the New York Draft Riot of 1863 where they quickly massacred over a hundred blacks.
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Abagond:
“As to Irish Americans, they stepped on the necks of both Black and Chinese Americans to get where they are. They are most certainly oppressors as a group. …”
response:
“I am aware of the evil nature of Israel. I despise its very existence. But Irish people have never come CLOSE to massacring natives, pushing them out of their land, and establishing a theocracy.”
.
interpretation:
Don’t look at us Irish!
We’re awesome upstanding persecuted citizens without a racist bone …
Look over there instead!
They (Israel) did injustices too, only worse.
We’ve had these things done to us.
(means – so it’s only right we return the favor!!)
It’s the WASPs.
It’s the corporations!
It’s the republicans.
It’s the capitalistic system.
It’s the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy!
It’s Bunny Fu-Fu!!!!
It’s people that aren’t magnanimous like Bernie the democrat!!
We’re Catholics. That makes us superior (less sinful) than them …
Racism doesn’t really exist …
I’m just as oppressed as Black people!!!!!!
How well you tolerate his unending lameness is a great mystery Abagond.
I noticed that he NEVER answered your question about his being more concerned for the shot lion in Africa than the murders of unarmed Black men in his own country. That exposed his disingenuous … ! This dude doesn’t give one hoot about Black people.
**Deflection – denial – nonstop lies. Anything but the truth.
Pathetic … just like his consistent, criminal, belligerent, fuzzy irrational, dishonest, fairy-tale thinking.
He makes me miss Randy!
Damn!!
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@ Fan
I agree, pointing out Israel to Lord of Mirkwood was a mistake. It fed right into his thief-thief style of arguing.
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I am still waiting on him to show me where he was pulled over for driving while Irish. OR beaten by cops for being a threatening Irish man. Or the welfare Irish Queen. Perhaps the Irish incarceration rate
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So the only “oppression” you experience in your life Mirkwood is the hibernophobic comments towards you on this blog ? And you want to equate that with all the very real racism non whites experience everywhere else ?
I think the reason that you keep coming back to this blog is to be “oppressed” and that confirms what you believe; that your not racist and don’t benefit from white priivilage.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
How is Fan’s comment Hibernophobic and anti-Catholic?
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@L o M,
I reread what Fan wrote and could not detect anything that was remotely Hibernophobic or anti-Catholic either. Could you select the bits that you found Hibernophobic or anti-Catholic and explain how they are so. It would be helpful for all of us to understand what kind of comment could evoke that kind of feeling in people.
That comment that you labeled as “patently false” was not about Irish people nor Catholics but directed solely to an individual. Whether one agrees with it or not is another matter, but how is that extended or extrapolated to represent a statement about a whole group delineated by immutable characteristics?
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Kola Boof: white people where slaves AND SO WHAT!!
KOLA BOOF
18 March 2015 at 03:08 · Edited ·
IRRITATED:
Black Man preaching about how Blacks & Irish were enslaved together (or some such shit) and how they should be in solidarity because of it.
These are the rantings of a WEAK BLACK MAN….and this is what irritates me so much in America….I don’t know why a lot of AA MEN are like this, but they always want to be “Solidarity, down with” other races of people (“Oh the Arab is my brown brother, the Indians are my brothers)…..they can never UNIFY our own people, they can never choose Blackness as the standard….but they constantly trying to be related to other races/groups.
Fuck that. I’m an African. My tribe is Oromo. I am Nilotic. My mother tongue is a “Slave” language, Egyptian Arabic. I DON’T WANT to be related to these other “People of Color” groups when it comes to my Power and Liberation.
I don’t want to share it with Irish and Arabs and Latinos and even Mulattoes who have enslaved and betrayed my race for centuries and centuries. As an African, I have enough back-stabbing enemies in “Black skin” (in Africa) to worry about.
Why can’t we stand ALONE as “Black People” and do our shit to benefit ourselves?
I get so irritated by these AA Men always trying to PROP me up as some relation to a someone other group as if I’m not good enough to stand my own as a Black Person. I don’t need Latinos, Arabs, Asians and other groups. AND that is not to say that I’m not friendly or allied with them. On some level, I have no problem with that. We’re all humans. But I definitely don’t want to be grouped with them. I come from the Nile River in MY HOMELAND …Sudan, Africa. I don’t need validation from “White Irish slaves” and “Native Americans” and “Brown Arab Muslims” who own Africans as slaves. I am better than that. I’m too good.
Kola Boof
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sorry
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Comment deleted for use of a foreign language.
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LOM
His comment policy is clear on foreign language. If you wanted to, your lazy behind could have wrote it in English to begin with. In accordance to the policy.
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Sharina,
Entitlement at it’s best.
Have you noticed how the white nationalist are attempting to take over the narrative online, trying to re-make the narrative on “racism”
such as trying to equate Irish “7-10 year term contract” slavery with African “until you die and we own your children too” slavery
These white racist have already come up with “alllivesmatter”
and now they are trying to say white people are being “discriminated against” in the workplace and at schools
These delusional bats are trying to hijack the narrative AGAIN
“Sam’s Club CEO Rosalind Brewer is being accused of discriminating against white men following a CNN interview where she discussed the importance of workforce diversity.”
https://beta.finance.yahoo.com/news/people-calling-sams-club-ceo-174039804.html
It seems white Americans need to be reminded about the 200+ years of formal and informal Apartheid in the USA
They say “those who forget history are doomed to repeat it” (Judge Scalia and Affirmative Action)
I use the term “Apartheid” because the term “Jim Crow” is too light and flaky — it does not properly convey what was really happening in the USA up until 1960s
Black people were dealing with Apartheid and Segregation in the United States
and that needs to be hammered home to these young white people who don’t understand what all the fuss is about
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@Linda
I can’t help but laugh at them. Whatever medicine they were taking to keep them sane is not working anymore. They have become paranoid and just plain crazy.
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LOM
Duh!!! You are not writing a book on anything new. We already knew that all you cared about was your Irish objective. Late to the party as always.
“a cooked-up, pulled-out-of-ass, Hibernophobic LIE”—-Show it to be one or shut up.
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“I’ve been doing some thinking, and I’ve realized I don’t give a damn about what people like Michael Jon Barker, Sharina, or Fan think about Irish-Americans like me.”
.
Don’t you have your personal racist relative (Uncle Epgah) to entertain on your own blog? Go there and give a damn about what IT thinks.
And take your fake solidarity message with you before even more truth (stories about how the Irish “joined in the oppression of blacks”) seeps into your pointy dunce capped head.
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Lord of Mirkwood
You are the only one here for personal gain.
You mean an oppressed people turned oppressor.
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“EPGAH hates Irish Catholics, just like a good racist should.”
.
And yet YOU LOVE entertaining that which YOU state hates people of YOUR ilk.
How messed up is that?
When he returns to your site to profess even more hatred, you become gushingly giddy with the attention it’s paying you to the extent that you come here to announce the thread and comment this banned (here) troll has visited on your blog – as if Santa himself has visited you with awesome gifts you think we here ought to come and see.
You’re pathetic. lol
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Here let me correct that for you:
Amongst fellow white Europeans, The Irish people have suffered more than
anyoneany other white European ethnic group in the history of the world.other than that, you and your revised Irish history can take a seat, you delusional dingbat
(and as far as the Irish suffering in Europe, I’m sure many white people of the Balkans would Highly disagree with your assessment of white European’s who have historically suffered at the hands of their fellow white Europeans)
The short term Irish contract slaves, who were FREED after 7-10 years, and their children, IRISH AMERICANS were living the good life in the USA in comparison to
Africans brought to the America’s as SLAVES FOR LIFE and their children, AFRICAN AMERICANS,
who were also slaves for life, considered property and killed at will of any white man in America, were forced into Apartheid and segregation, and had no civil rights until 1960s
Slave Hung Alive by the Ribs
Claude Neal
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-BE065999.jpg?size=67&uid=ec526ee8-b75a-446d-8778-726b9bb47b91
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AFRICAN SLAVES sales advertisement
vs
IRISH SERVANTS sales advertisement
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How the Irish arrived to America in the 1800s:
vs
How the Africans arrived to America in the 1800s:
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No, they are NOT the same
the Irish Holocaust and the MASSIVE slave trade inflicted on Africans for 300 years, are not one and the same
they are not in the same pond, much less the same universe
so, you can keep your sarcasm on and use it to wipe away the white boy sniveling privilege that you have been abusing, every time you come on this blog designed for people of colour
no matter WHY the Irish came, they were able to bring their dignity, no matter how small
The Africans did NOT have that luxury…. they were NOT given a Choice on how or why they arrived here
nor were they allowed to keep their dignity or their real names.
The Irish immigrants were privileged enough to the point where they did not arrive in Chains, were Forced to give up their names and culture, for fear of death.
The Irish as servants were NOT and can NEVER be on the same level as African slaves
this blog is not here to support your white revisionist history
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“Yes, they are the same. The Irish Holocaust and the black Holocaust is the same. Both were evil.”
Linda says,
Nope, not in this lifetime – and everything else you said is a big “blah, blah, blah” —
only a delusional
racisttroll such as yourself would lump the Irish with the Africansbecause as History has shown, their suffering was NOT one and the same
your revisionist history will never erase the truth nor will your sorry attempt at trying to spread your lies on this Blog erase the fact the Irish in America
wholehearted participated in the subjugation of black people in America.
African and Irish suffering as “brethren” under the hot sun ended when the Irish slaves “Contract of Servitude” was completed as time served.
the African SLAVE did not get that luxury of having a term-contract and had to be a Slave For Life
The Irish in the Caribbean soon became the overseers of the African slaves and the then the slave-owners
see Monserrat
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/montserrat-the-island-in-the-caribbean-where-st-patricks-day-is-a-holiday-26833297.html
“In exchange for transportation, food, clothing and lodging, young Irish people decided to take a step into the unknown while the families they left behind received a tiny fee in return. The mainly English masters would work the servant hard but then after a pre-agreed number of years, usually seven, the servant would be released.
A census carried out in 1678 revealed that the Irish made up almost 70 of Montserrat’s population. The 1,845 Irish on the island soon made their mark and once their contracts finished, the former servants became land owners and merchants themselves.
In his book If The Irish Ran The World, author Donald Harman Akenson reveals how the Irish on Montserrat became fierce slave owners, as ruthless businessmen raped west Africa for free labour.”
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In Monserrat, they celebrate St. Patrick’s day, in remembrance of St. Patrick and a failed African slave rebellion:
http://www.independent.ie/life/st-patricks-day/st-patricks-day-on-a-caribbean-island-30093796.html
On St. Patrick’s Day a slave village will be erected here to remember their African heritage. Songs of slavery will be sung and foods cooked as they were all those years ago.
In memory of the failed rebellion, Montserratians remember the day through an event called Masquerade where islanders dance the Irish jigs one night, then mocking their one-time masters the next by cracking whips while dressed in tall hats like bishops’ miters.
African slaves, living in fear of their Irish masters, decided to take revenge hoping they could overthrow the planters and regain their freedom.
In 1768, they planned an island-wide attack on St. Patrick’s Day, when they knew the Irish planters would be celebrating and drunk.
Servants were instructed to grab all the weapons they could find while field slaves were to storm Government House with rocks, farm tools, clubs and homemade swords.
But someone leaked the plan.
When the Irish planters discovered the plot they punished the slaves severely – hanging nine in public.
“There is a myth that the Irish, being oppressed by the British, were more humane, and this exposes that lie” says Island historian Howard Fergus.
Once indentured laborers, these Irish settlers from counties such as Cork, Waterford and Wexford, imposed huge hardship on African slaves despite the fact they had once faced similar treatment.
“The white servants dreamed of becoming owners of land and blacks. When they (the Irish) recovered their freedom, after years of hard penitence and unpaid toil, the first thing they did is buy a ‘Negro’ to fan them in siesta hour” wrote Uruguayan novelist and historian Eduardo Galeano.
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Linda says
utter bullsh’t — the Irish were NEVER treated worse than Africans by the British.
Lies
and you sitting here being indignant while spreading your lies, does not change the fact their your beloved Irish CATHOLIC ex-slaves served their “servitude contracts”
then turned around and bought African slave of their own, getting fat and rich in the Caribbean
“An Irish slave-master gave my forebear the name Garvey; he was not allowed to pass on his African name to us..”. — Marcus Garvey (1922)
and Irish CATHOLIC ex-slaves in the Caribbean became slave owners:
“Once indentured laborers, these Irish settlers from counties such as Cork, Waterford and Wexford, imposed huge hardship on African slaves despite the fact they had once faced similar treatment.
“The white IRISH servants dreamed of becoming owners of land and blacks. When they (the Irish) recovered their freedom, after years of hard penitence and unpaid toil, the first thing they did is buy a ‘Negro’ to fan them in siesta hour” wrote Uruguayan novelist and historian Eduardo Galeano. (RIP)
in America, these Irish CATHOLIC wholehearted participating in repressing black Americans in the North and as part of slave patrols in the South.
you are an aggressively delusional troll, intent on spreading his delusional version of history
but Thank God the rest of us can read English
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“It seems like pretty much everyone except Irish Catholics hates Irish Catholics, from the reception I’m getting on a supposedly anti-racist website.”
.
Awwwwwwwww…. poor wittle Mirkwood. (Where’s my teeny tiny violin at??)
Is it finally becoming clear to you that no one here identifies/sympathizes with you, or the Irish?
Why do you believe that the people here care who your Uncle Epgah hates, or what stupid things he says on your blog? Black people have known for hundreds of years what stupid racist whites think and believe. He’s your train wreck. We’ve seen them millions of time.
So why are you still here?
Why aren’t on an Irish Catholic blog, trying to rally your group/people to the causes that’s near and dear to you, and them – you know, privileged WHITE people?
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OFF TOPIC: EPGAH.
Unless you are quoting something he said on this thread.
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“Do you understand that????????????”
I understand that you could not answer ANY of my four simple questions.
I also understand that you are a consummate (privileged!) liar.
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@lom i’m embarrassed because of you
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Where exactly did I express hatred of Irish Catholics? I feel like I have asked this before, so please refresh my memory.
Thanks.
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“2. During the Civil War, the South was led by capitalist reactionaries who attempted to break away to oppress slaves and poor whites. The North had the backing of socialists around the world, and Lincoln made many speeches in which he said we should put people before profit. The Civil War was a victory for free labor over capitalist oligarchy.”
A shameless lie. I dare you to find one quote from Marx or Engels defending the North as anti-capitalist. John D. Rockefeller was the biggest capitalist of the 19th century and a staunch Union man. Spelman College got that name because of Rockefeller money: “1884
Name changes to Spelman Seminary in honor of Mrs. Laura Spelman Rockefeller and her parents Harvey Buel and Lucy Henry Spelman, longtime activists in the antislavery movement.”
http://www.spelman.edu/about-us/history-in-brief.
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Lordy, I didn’t ask you about socialists in the Civil War but about your attempt to describe that war as some kind of anti capitalist crusade. I know you can’t. Marx backed Lincoln for the same reason he backed Polish, Irish and Italian independence.
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Item # 6 on the web page below probably contains at least one answer to one of the 4 questions I recently put to Mirkwood that he could/would not answer.
Having discovered this page during my research on “savages,” I sort of understand (a little) why he’s so confused, delusional and out there! And why he likely spends so much of his time at Abagond’s blog.
Apparently there are plenty of others that share his confused (privileged!!) traits.
Who knew??
https://beingirishwhatarewelike.wordpress.com/
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@ LORD OF MIRKWOOD
well, now considering the american labor scene from the 1840’s to the 1860’s (outside the pre/civil war) was concerned with robber barons, strikebreakers, and the ‘company town’ scenario, i see marx and engels (Inc.) trying to hold on to copyrights from that time period like google search digital media copyright enforcement and prevention from sharing a bunch of poofy readers’ club publications, (see pre-mao china) talking about the conflict. That is is officially and technically misguided. I think MOST marxist just like brush fire border wars, that is their environment, MO, and i hasten to say, raison d’ etre (cf trotsky – ie don’t let it go too far). I fail to see how you engender any type of values but that of the bourgousie. And? abagond is catholic. You are just OMG dude. Anyway i gotta go outside or something
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my research indicates the ‘communist party’ cf ‘comintern’ per se did not officially and publically get involved in america until 1919, after the bolshevik revolution.
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If you are not in full 100% of things LOM deems good, then he sees you as against him. He said as much on another post.
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Lord of Mirkwood
Paraphrasing does not require you use those words. Gosh you are slow.
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Correction those exact words*
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http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ireland-slaves-conspiracy-theory-debunked-st-patricks-day-1.4028855
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@Lord Of Mirkwood: Happy St. Patrick’s Day.🍀☘️☘️🍀🍀☘️🍀
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And before anyone tries to refute Herneith’s amazing source, just remember it was debunked by an Irish man. Happy St. Patrick’s day!!!
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[…] The Irish had it hard too – sniff […]
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