“The White Anti-Racist is an Oxymoron” (2003) by Kil Ja Kim argues that you cannot be white and against racism at the same time.
By “white” she does not mean having white skin. She means thinking of yourself as white and enjoying the benefits that come with it in America:
white people need to be willing to have their very social position, their very relationship of domination, their very authority, their very being…let go, perhaps even destroyed. I know this might sound scary, but that is really not my concern. I am not interested in making white people, even those so-called good-hearted anti-racist whites, comfortable about their position in struggles that shape my life in ways that it will never shape theirs.
Being white creates a conflict of interest that leads to white paternalism: whites who think they know what is best for people of colour.
Kim has seen it. So has bell hooks. So has Malcolm X:
So if we need white allies in this country, we don’t need those kind who compromise. We don’t need those kind who encourage us to be polite, responsible, you know. We don’t need those kind who give us that kind of advice. We don’t need those kind who tell us how to be patient. No, if we want some white allies, we need the kind that John Brown was, or we don’t need you.
John Brown led a slave uprising on the eve of the civil war: he died fighting for the freedom of black people.
Becoming anti-racist means giving up a white identity and standing with people of colour, not with white people. Come what may. It means not to lead people of colour but to follow. It means leaving the white club for good.
Kim breaks it down like this:
- Don’t call us, we’ll call you. If we need your resources, we will contact you. But don’t show up, flaunt your power in our faces and then get angry when we resent the fact that you have so many resources we don’t and that we are not grateful for this arrangement. And don’t get mad because you can’t make decisions in the process. Why do you need to?
- Stop speaking for us. We can talk for ourselves.
- Stop trying to point out internal contradictions in our communities, we know what they are, we are struggling around them, and I really don’t know how white people can be helpful to non-whites to clear these up.
- Don’t ever say some shit to me about how you feel silenced, marginalized, discriminated against, or put in your place as a white person. Period.
- Stop calling me sister. I will tell you when you are family.
- Start thinking of what it would mean, in terms of actual structured social arrangements, for whiteness and white identity – even the white anti-racist kind (because there really is no redeemable or reformed white identity) – to be destroyed.
See also:
Abagond 
Love your blogs. Been following most of them. I was born in Vietnam and came to the U.S. just a couple of years before the war ended there. My father brought my mother & I back to this small town in northern WI. Got it from all ends- for not being white, for being asian, for being mixed race, for being from Vietnam, and so on.
We were the only Asians and real diversity in the area. There were some Native Americans mostly living on the reservation so that helped somewhat
However, I also received some crap from the Vietnamese end for alos being mixed.
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Racism will only end when ALL of us stop putting so much weight on our racial identities.
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I read the article. This summarizes my feelings on white people in Africa and other third world or POC dominated communities very well and articulates it in a manner that I would not be able to.
The whole “Saving Africa” is never run by African people, George Clooney speaks for the Sudanese, Angelina Jolie for poor black African women and so and so on. They mean well (maybe) but it rubs me the wrong way. Those are not our voices. And what are we told when we complain? “Well the world does not care about young Africans thoughts.They are more important because they are known by Americans because of their celebrity. So they have the platform to “change” things”. Something on those lines. It rubs a lot Africans the wrong way, in fact I think there is a Facebook page on this issue.
Thanks. This article and post spoke to me on this issue. This phrase especially:
“Additionally, white activism, especially white anti-racism, is predicated on an economy of gratitude. We non-whites are supposed to be grateful that a white person is willing to work with non-white people. We are supposed to be grateful that you actually want to work with us and that you give us your resources. I would like to know why you have those resources and others do not? And don’t assume that just because I have to ask you for resources that it does not hurt me, pain me even. Don’t assume that when you come into the space, that doesn’t bother me. Don’t assume that when you talk first, talk the most, and talk the most often, that this doesn’t hurt me. Don’t assume that when I see you get the attention and accolades and the book deals and the speaking engagements that this does not hurt me (because you profit off of pain). ”
Sorry I do not know how to insert in italics!
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White people who think they are speaking for black people by confronting racism are just looking for attention. It’s all about them. I don’t blame you guys for getting annoyed at them.
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I believe racism will exist as long as different races exist. If we lived in a world where everyone was the same race, then there’d just be some other kind of “ism” to deal with.
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Is Kim saying that what John Brown did was wrong?
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mad momma moogacat reblogged this on Mad Momma Moogacat and commented: Fantastic. Why do white people think they know more about what persons of color think and want than the people of color themselves?
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You are on fire, Abagond! Keep it up. Yep, if we could all just erase the past of all the hurt/destruction that racism has caused then racism would end. Is that even possible? Don’t think so. As long as there is difference in this world-there will ALWAYS be conflict.
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Ugh – so many chips on shoulders. No matter what some do or say, it will be interpreted negatively. Nobody other than me defines me, I hope y’all feel the same.
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When actually applied, the concept of collective and historical guilt (which is as old as the hills) has not worked very well. As a rule of thumb, if you’re actually powerful enough to implement it as a policy or to engineer a broad cultural acceptance of the guilt then whatever rhetorical or conceptual purpose it originally had is overshadowed by the inevitable abuses and acrimony it creates. Dangerous stuff.
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This phrase really hit home:
“Additionally, white activism, especially white anti-racism, is predicated on an economy of gratitude. We non-whites are supposed to be grateful that a white person is willing to work with non-white people. We are supposed to be grateful that you actually want to work with us and that you give us your resources. I would like to know why you have those resources and others do not? And don’t assume that just because I have to ask you for resources that it does not hurt me, pain me even. Don’t assume that when you come into the space, that doesn’t bother me. Don’t assume that when you talk first, talk the most, and talk the most often, that this doesn’t hurt me. Don’t assume that when I see you get the attention and accolades and the book deals and the speaking engagements that this does not hurt me (because you profit off of pain). ”
One of my co-workers recently got back from a 2-week excursion in Africa, helping put up solar panels in a village so that the community could get hot water. I felt myself becoming mildly angered and incensed by her off-the-cuff comments about how “everyone shared the same ladder because it was the only one available”. No mention about WHY the village was impoverished and needed help installing solar panels! The rank ignorance of many Americans is pathetic, to say the least…
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Good post.
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What about white people whose reproductive partners (as in husbands and wives) are black people?
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Abagond:
The so-called “Good White People” argument has no credibility, because, they receive the same benefits of white racism as any other white person. Kim Kardashian and Jennifer Lopez are examples of whitewomen who used blackmen and black culture to enrich themselves. They can portray themselves as blackwomen on one hand, and on the flip side, still have access to white male influence and power. Blackwomen can’t dip their toe in whiteness as they do in terms of blackness. As i’ve said before, whites worship money and power above all things. As black people, we fall for the bs every time. Just because some “exotic brunette” imbeds herself into black culture, doesn’t change the fact that she’s getting over on black people. Fox TV is going to pay J-Lo 20 million dollars to host another season of American Idol, Why? She can’t sing to save her life, but, she’s an exotic white female with a curvy shape who embodies what most whites wish they could be…Black! Honestly, I’m tired of them exploiting our race and culture. Blackmen who fool with them are a “jump off” in every sense of the word. What are Ray J and Reggie Bush doing now? As you said Abagond, if whites aren’t willing to go all in, they shouldn’t f*** with us…Period!
Tyrone
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In my case, it’s alittle different. Anti-racist whites try to help explore my “culture”. It’s annoying as hell. My boyfriend’s bf was irked that I never saw Harlem Nights and soul music sucks horrible to me. I told him that I don’t to watch a movie to know that being a poor black man is hard. They tend to believe or say racist without noticing it. For example, his reasoning why I should it is to learn and watch my own people or some crap like that. That doesn’t even make sense. The movie’s setting is the ghetto with a mostly African American(of W.African)., which I am neither. The characters don’t have the same culture,style and barely like anything like me. Maybe next time, I should get on him for not watching Clint Eastwood movies and BBC. Who cares if Poland and Britian are different countries, it’s all the same, right.But to me fair, a lot afrocentrics think pretty much the same level of annoyance. I really think racial stuff is bs and is pure politics. There’s more difference between subcultures than skin color.
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Tyrone, enlighten us, are you suggesting segregation? And am I paraphrasing correctly, you are claiming that there are no ‘good white people’? Said otherwise, you are making a blanket derogatory statement about individuals based on the color of their skin?
What’s your tirade accomplishing – making you feel better about yourself? Good for you pal, whatever floats your boat.
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@ Barbara
See points 4 & 6
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@ Tyrone: What is blackness? What the difference between that and whiteness?
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I’m sorry, but Tyrone is basically the same as the whites he judges. How do ONLY and ONLy white people value money and power ? Brunttes aren’t exotic among white people. Red hair is the least hair color for all people. Being curvy isn’t a black feature.Nilotic peoples are gracile in build, being slimmer and of greater stature than the average human, and having long limbs with very long distal segments.
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Powerful.
Too often, whites enter into these movements to tickle their ‘savior complex’ rather than to LOSE SHIT in the name of justice. In the event that their views (on matters which do not negatively affect them) contradicts yours their self-designation as ‘anti-racist’ has the subtle effect of disarming opposition. After all, if you’re anti- the white ‘anti-racist’ you must be racist!
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“How do ONLY and ONLy white people value money and power ? ”
Not to get involved in someone else’s argument but he didn’t say this. He said they value money and power more than anyTHING else. Given the world’s balatant inequities and the consistent action of the white power structure over the last several centuries I think you’d be hard-pressed to prove that untrue.
Many of the people in this:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
were members of George W. Bush’s administration.
The guy who wrote this:
http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Chessboard-American-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261
is Barack Obama’s foreign policy advisor.
The will-to-(project)-power is the logus of Euro-American culture and supremacy in all matters is its aim.
Inidividual whites are educated to be commited to this world view and the view of others as things to be dominated by white people.
This is despite the fact that ‘lower class’ whites may also suffer tangentially due to the culture’s overwhelming avarice.
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What if, in the early 1960’s, a certain Irish Father Mckillebrew began preaching against the evils of segregation and racial marginalization? He began to attract attention and soon began organizing sit-ins at lunch counters. What if he gained great momentum, and went on to organize marches in Montgomery, Albany, Birmingham, Selma? What if it was he who organized the great march on Washington and delivered the “I Have a Dream” speech? What if today, there was a Memorial to Father Mckillebrew in West Potomac Park?
Would that have made a difference? I think, clearly, it would have.
Father Mckillebrew might have been an exceptional individual. He might have had great resources, especially within the Catholic Church. He may have had great connections, and access to funding sources. But because Father Mckillebrew was White, it would mean that, once again, minorities where not at the forefront of shaping their own destinies. As good hearted as Father Mckillebrew’s intentions might be, his role would have been even MORE effective and unifying if a minority person was filling it.
So there is always a kind of tightrope a person with privileged/power must walk when trying to help people who are less powerful. You se parent’s having this same struggle all the time. Should I use my adult resources to rescue my kids from a problem or would it be better if I let them deal with this one on their own? it’s not always easy to know when and where to draw the line.
This is the overall sentiment from Kil Ja Kim that I can agree with for the afore-stated reasons. Now, as far as her list of 6
Don’t call us, we’ll call you. If we need your resources, we will contact you. But don’t show up, flaunt your power in our faces and then get angry when we resent the fact that you have so many resources we don’t and that we are not grateful for this arrangement.
Some of this goes hand in hand with what I said above about walking the tightrope between using your power to try and help and leaving people develop their own solutions. BUT it’s not quite that simple. Sometimes a White person at least needs to be able to let you know what resources they have available (should you choose to use them). If White people are willing to use their privilege/resources to help in the process of leveling the playing field for everyone, then I don’t have a problem with them letting me know what resources they can contribute.
Stop speaking for us. We can talk for ourselves.
Agree. But “Speaking for us” is not the same thing as “speaking up for us.” That is to say that it’s problematic for Whites to be the primary architects, or spokesmen, of the minority message. However, it doesn’t mean that they cannot “speak up” for minority causes, especially when they can see that an injustice is occurring. At times, it is more effective for Whites to convince fellow White people that the problem is real.
Stop trying to point out internal contradictions in our communities, we know what they are
Disagree. If there are contradictions or inconsistencies then I want to know about them, and I’m not particular about where the information comes from. I’m a big boy now, and I’m not going to wither because a White person notices an inconsistency and brings it my attention. The assumption that because I am Black that I already know what ALL the inconsistencies are is worthy of a complete dunce.
Don’t ever say some shit to me about how you feel silenced, marginalized, discriminated against, or put in your place as a white person.
Disagree. If there are people who are silencing, marginalizing, and discriminating, I want to know about it, because its probably not going to end with White people. In some cases, the abuses may not be real, but the result of Whites feeling the reduction of their privilege, but either way, I want to hear all concerns so I can deal with the problem in one way, or the other.
Stop calling me sister. I will tell you when you are family.
I get the way that she means it, but it’s also a two way street.
Start thinking of what it would mean, in terms of actual structured social arrangements, for whiteness and white identity – even the white anti-racist kind (because there really is no redeemable or reformed white identity) – to be destroyed.
Clearly she means the constructed “whiteness” which is the White power structure, based on her allusion to “structured social arrangements.” But its easy to confuse that with White skin. clearly the structure of power imbalance should be dismantled, obviously without eliminating the people with White Skin 🙂
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Abagond:
Barbara, did I stutter? What didn’t you understand about what I said? I’m not gonna fall into the “Inclusive Trap” that some black people fall into. Yes, there are good white people in the world, but, they couldn’t stop Troy Davis from being put to death in Georgia. Don’t throw that crap in my face, you know it’s bs. When did being upset about white bulls**t become a crime? I don’t live in Disneyland, Barbara. No disrespect to you and other sistas, I refuse to be content with the status quo. I don’t care if whites like me. When they stop shoving a knife in our back, I can shut my mouth.
Tyrone
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@ Teddy-
“What about white people whose reproductive partners (as in husbands and wives) are black people?”
What about white people whose reproductive partners are black people?
I’m interested in knowing what you are trying to understand.
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The whole celebrity thing has a point though; people are going to be more compelled to do things because it has a familiar face and they might be a fan of their work, creating a sense of connection there.
Inregards to white people waiting for them to call them; if they never meet or know one another, how would they even have their phone number to call in the first place?
Trying to make white people take responsibility or admit their part and “also” work at making the world better for POC, not likely its something Charles Dickens himself realized when he was changing the way england took care of its orphans etc…..that confronting people like that just made them defensive and pull back whereas saying “hey, look at this horrible thing, we should change it” essentially was somewhat more effective.
Since the original poster of the article was a half-asian, how doesn’t this apply equally to her as well? Does she think black people don’t feel the same way with her inregards to her physical presence and interference?
And Tyrone; J-Lo’s not white; she’s an afro-latina.
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Tyrone, I hear you. If you are being disrespected, anywhere, from anyone, you better believe you have every right to be p***ed and not take it.
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@V-4
“Since the original poster of the article was a half-asian, how doesn’t this apply equally to her as well? Does she think black people don’t feel the same way with her inregards to her physical presence and interference? ”
Kil Ja Kim is a Korean American adult adoptee, she is not half-Asian, here is a link to another article she wrote:http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com/360077.html?thread=6047885
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This is such a joke.
“Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”
Folks generally prefer not to donate their time and money if they have absolutely no say in how that time and money is spent. So you want handouts without the moralizing. Following this prescription, if whites stopped donating their time and money to black causes, what would happen? Surely such an outcome wouldn’t improve the overall situation in the black community, and then there would be a large cohort of the black community who would start complaining then. They’d be more than happy to take white money and follow white suggestions. So this really amounts to infighting: how to deal with and spend white influence. One side resents it while the other one knows that it is necessary.
You can’t get something for nothing Abagond. I understand that you may find that hard to understand.
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http://resistracism.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/why-i-hate-white-anti-racists/, this is a great article about Beth Rankin, read the links ,if you can’t understand “don’t call us, we’ll call you.”, this is an excellent example of a white person trying to take over a Black Student Union meeting.
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@MinneB,
they are people whose children are as likely to become the victims of racism as their spouses’. They may be fresh into the battle, but come with an experienced guide. As a result of one drop, they are the parents of black children. The may be white, but their motivation is rather different.
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Teddy, you do get that the article is talking about “Whiteness” as a label, and as an associated system right? It’s not talking about white-skinned individuals.
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I like Tyrone’s comments.
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It sure looks like the only solution is to destroy race as a concept. But I have no idea how to achieve that. Whites giving away their privileges sure needs to be one of the first things, but in order to do that, it needs to happen on all the levels (from institutional to the personal), and I don’t see that happening.
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“I like Tyrone’s comments.”
I second that!!!!
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Glad to see you all are as racist as the day is long. The white anti-racist isn’t an oxymoron; the white anti-racist is someone who recognizes that racism is ubiquitous, and runs deeper among blacks in America than any other race. I know full well the vicious hate that you people carry in your hearts, and I know there can never be reconciliation while you bear a fabricated chip on your shoulder and refuse to take responsibility for yourselves and your lives.
I gladly stand as a white anti-racist against the putrid filth that spills from your mouth. And I will not compromise when it comes to defending all people from your manufactured bile. Your racist nonsense is transparent and false.
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@ Mira
Clearly this is a process that can only be achieved incrementally. There are aspects of it that have already been achieved. There are other aspects that will take much more time. The wise man takes the long view.
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What do you mean, “you people?”
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Well, I know that Abagond does, I’m not so sure about Kil Ja Kim, but really, do you really think that a white somebody, falling in love with a black somebody, gets the whiteness out of his or her system by magic?
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Well, we’ll start by clearing out the Whites
Then we’ll go after all the “Mixed” people.
Then we’ll ask the sapient Tyrone what we should do next?
The Blind leading the blind…
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Do you see the pattern yet, King?
Apparently, only white people can be racists, and they can never get rid of it except by complete self-destruction. Of course they must continue to offer concessions to non-white people as part of their eternal, sisyphean burden.
Now swap out “white” for “jewish” or “black” and see what kind of reaction you get.
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*yawns*
I’ve read all this tired ish before.
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Randy, most people are talking about a “system,” not “White people” offing themselves. And most realize that Blacks can be racist too. Abagond admitted that in the “Hearts of White People II” thread, and it has been said before on this site. on many occassions.
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(because there really is no redeemable or reformed white identity)
There isn’t many words for the cultural groupings that different white people belong to and I suppose that is by design so whites buy into Whiteness. So White winds up carrying the meaning of the both the system of racial privilege and also the cultural identity of all American white people. White people (meaning 1) need handy terms for “rural southern scots-irish protestant” or “urban midwestern post-bellum-immigrant catholic” etc to formally recognize the particularities among themselves. Maybe then we can see more easily that you can leave behind the false universal of whiteness while still having pride in important parts of who you are and where you came from.
But I do agree with Kil Ja Kim that there is not and can be no positive White Identity or White Pride and I wish Abagond would clarify what he means when he says there can be.
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No
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Let’s face it White people as a collective are never going to give up White supremacy willingly. You might get a few “anti racists” who might fight against it but the majority will not and why would they? They get the best of everything, always have a scapegoat and someone to look down on and there isn’t a price to pay for it as far as I can see. Only non-whites pay the price. The only realistic option we’ve got is to figure out ways to outsmart and counteract white supremacy and insulate ourselves as much as possible from it’s death grip.
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Piggy,
If you don’t understand the point of that article, then there’s nothing anyone can tell you. That article wasn’t meant for people that think like you do. If you can give up that kind of thinking that puts whites in the roles of saviors to victims and blacks as the roles of criminals and thugs, maybe, just maybe, you will start to open your eyes more and learn to get off of your obsession with “what’s wrong with blacks.”
And Alafas,
Whatever…Your comments doesn’t deserve a response.
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brothawolf:
This blog is precisely obsessed with “what’s wrong with blacks”. But you all just blame it on a different thing – white racism. My point is that if you expect a large enough percentage of whites to rally to the anti-racist cause you should expect to have to compensate whites with a little bit of a voice in the struggle. And if they have a vision, then that vision shouldn’t be discouted merely because it comes from a white person.
If you want to have your cake and eat it too, then the black community will merely tread water as it has done for x # of decades now. White people have given up on the black community. When whites discuss politics and economics and so forth, they discuss those topics with the understanding that including blacks in the discussion throws everything out the window. So if you ever care to change that, you’ll need white liasons. And you don’t treat liasons as you all are suggesting.
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I deleted a long name-calling exchange between King and MK82 (and Matari’s commentary on the same). Keep your comments to what people SAY. There is no need to make personal remarks.
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@ G.L. Piggy:
The danger Kim is trying to avoid is white paternalism. Whites, as long as they hold on to their white identity, are going to act in the interests of whites. Whatever money, time or talent they give to the cause will be like poison. It is better to try to carry on without it.
An analogy I used in an earlier draft of this post was FDR. He has arguably done more good for the poor than any other president. Yet in the end he was buying off a communist revolution so that he and his rich friends would not lose everything. So while he did help the poor, so much so that he brought blacks into the Democratic fold, in the end he was acting in the interest of the rich. He never let go of his class interests.
Another example is Booker T Washington. A hundred years ago he was the most powerful black man in America. Yet he did not openly push for civil rights. Why? He was a bought man: he had raised millions for black colleges from rich white men who, in effect, were buying his silence. So while that money did help many blacks get an education, it also kept racism untouched.
Personally I think whites should have a solid, visible position in any anti-racist movement, and they should have some say in it. But I also think Kim is right about the danger of white anti-racists.
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Piggy,
So, what are you saying? This blog should blame the problems of blacks on oh I dunno…blacks like you do on your blog because you know more about us than we do? The point of this blog is that your point is NOT VALID especially if it falls on your ongoing racist agenda. We already know that whites could care less about us and share your views on us blacks. We don’t need to hear it from you…again.
We don’t need white liasons. You’ve completely missed the point of this entry as you’ve done with so many others you’ve commented on. We, the POC, don’t need whites to lead, speak for us, or feel marginalized. If white people are to join us, they need to give up on their matrix of whiteness. No if’s, and’s, or but’s period!
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@ bingregory
Here is what I told Jason in another thread:
But that white identity is cultural, not racist or caste-like.
I do believe there is such a thing as a White American culture. So it is possible to have a healthy cultural identity based on that. The trouble is, that culture has been warped by racism so that makes it hard to do.
What would be better, though, is for all Americans to have a transracial national identity, other than just on the battlefield or at the Olympics. Where “American” is not code for “white people”.
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“For example, it is all right to be proud of all the things white people invented, like modern medicine. Where it becomes something sick and dangerous is when it is used to put down blacks and others.”
This is what it’s all about. You can be proud of being white without putting blacks and other POC down. If you are unable or unwilling to find THAT sense of pride, you are only fooling yourself and others about how proud you are of being white.
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@abagond:
“What would be better, though, is for all Americans to have a transracial national identity, other than just on the battlefield or at the Olympics. Where “American” is not code for “white people”.”
Well said. I think this thread too shows how the american racism effects on individuals and everybody. It is so deep in the culture and everyday practises that it is almost impossible not to feel it, or be influenced by it, somehow, if one lives and is born and raised in US. Starting from open racism up to the official forms and documents which classify people by their “race” or “ethnicity”.
I am not sayin or implying there is no racism elsewhere because there is, but as I understand this (like many other previous ones) is about the american racism and the racist system that is in USA.
Any way, interesting stuff to read and follow, makes one think. Keep the discussion going on.
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@ Matari:
I deleted your last comment. Your remarks were way too personal and was keeping alive a dispute that needs to stop. If King is wrong about something, then tell us why he is wrong, but do not go calling him names.
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@ G.L. Piggy
Strawman as usual. No one has said that whites couldn’t have a little bit of a voice at all. The problem is when that “little bit of a voice” predictably turns into making it all about them and their self-righteousness, when they forget just who/what it’s really about. Hence where the paternalism comes in. When it comes to a problem that they (whites) aren’t on the receiving end of/experts in, they really need to learn when to be the “second in command” and nothing more.
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For example, it is all right to be proud of all the things white people invented, like modern medicine.
I suppose that is ok in a sort of pan-european vs pan-african way, but that is a race concept that I think is pretty archaic to most folks nowadays. I’m thinking of things in the context of the United States where we have White Americans as a presumptive ethnicity or category of American. So then on what basis is it ok for me to feel more proud or especially proud of (say) Thomas Jefferson than it is for me to feel of Fredrick Douglas, when I, like a vast number of whites, only joined the nation post-civil war? Both of them contributed to the nation that I belong to. The only things I have more in common with TJ than I do with FD are having to do with the legacy of white supremacy, which may be numerous but are not a basis for positive White pride.
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I agree in principle; clearly the “white” identity, psyche, and agenda has to be debunked if the white-skinned or European-descended person is going to get beyond the narcissism of white privilege.
But there are practical issues that go beyond the anti-racist rhetoric. I’ve been living this for thirty years, so I can share this from my own experience.
First, no matter how well intended, whites with good hearts who work to adjust their minds and behaviors rightly will remain privileged by virtue of being in this society. That won’t go away. This also may become a point of resentment that inhibits white-black collaboration.
Second, just telling white people they have to “follow” black people is not enough. You mention John Brown, but who was John Brown supposed to follow when no black man or organization existed that was willing to get militant in opposition to slavery? In 1859, no one had a plan to fight slavery except John Brown. He appealed widely to black leadership, none of which assisted him or offered him anything but reasons not to do so, and that includes Frederick Douglass. I’m not trying to establishing white oneupmanship here, just pointing out a practical issue.
I’m 54 and have in my earlier days sought to be “led” in humble acquiescence; I have been taught and helped over the years in this experience, but I’ve also seen a lot of black leaders that were no less full of themselves and met no lack of fools who happened to be black.
Whites who want to be good humans need to learn from reading black history and engage in radical reassessment of what it means to be white. In this we can –we must–learn from black wisdom and understanding, esp. in the writings of those who have engaged these issues. Including reading this blog.
On the other hand, one must find the right teacher, the right leader, and the right agenda or else there will be some black egotist ready to use a well-meaning person.
Finally, “good” whites need to realize that they’d better be ready to get the brunt of the criticism and in-your-face retaliation. Yes, it’s part of the price of the ticket back to justice. But my own experience is that the whites who don’t care, who live as whites in the ideological/sociological manner, never experience rejection and don’t care if they do. Whites who seek genuine social/political alignment with blacks will not infrequently expose themselves to an array of people, some of whose prejudiced outlook is impossible to overcome.
Yes, I’ve heard the rhetoric of what good whites should do. It is essentially true. But in the end, good whites are people too, and they have to discern that not every savvy leader or capable speaker is worth following. You also have to find your own moral and spiritual values and align with blacks who share those values. Whites have to read history and listen to the angry voices and radical voices and there is internal struggle of lifetime proportion. But then again, beware of bull—t. Be prepared to be criticized and rejected just because you are the accessible, open and sincere “white” in reach. All black people in this world system are disadvantaged by racist reality and history. But not all black people are sincere, wise, or worth following. And some black people will happily put you at their heels only for the pleasure of doing so, not toward some higher good for humanity.
Just remember too: John Brown went to the gallows. The black men who died with him were grassroots folks. All the black leaders were elsewhere. So your true allies will be people of the same heart, people who are followers too.
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Love your website, professor. I have White Pride for John Brown.
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King:
My point is that a clear double-standard exists with regards to the content of statements being made and the race of the commenter (observed in physical as well as electronic discourses). How can the term “anti-racist” apply when such distinctions are so commonly present?.
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@abagond
“Another example is Booker T Washington. A hundred years ago he was the most powerful black man in America. Yet he did not openly push for civil rights. Why? He was a bought man: he had raised millions for black colleges from rich white men who, in effect, were buying his silence. So while that money did help many blacks get an education, it also kept racism untouched.”
I’m not sure what you’re criticizing him for here. It sounds like he did some concrete things to improve the lives of other black people.
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He did. I am just saying that by seeking white help to do so he put himself in a bind.
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@ Louis DeCaro Jr:
Excellent comment. Thank you.
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Abagond:
Hasn’t the persistent vilification those who wish to maintain any type of “white identity” ensured that only the people who are willing to suffer severe social consequences are the ones who maintain such an identity?
By that logic, you ought to be encouraging mainstream white folks to establish a positive white identity.
“When [X] is outlawed, only outlaws have [X]”.
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Randy, I thought that my first comment explained, in part, why it’s necessary to treat Blacks and Whites differently when it comes to anti-racism. I don’t think this is a “double standard” nor do most White anti-racists.
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King:
If you’re proposing a self-congruent framework, which I believe you are, then this “difference” sits at the heart of the matter. I’m struggling to understand how one can have different standards that don’t by definition constitute a “double” standard.
I’m not being intentionally obtuse. Perhaps you could be so kind as to point me in a direction to better understand how this works, as my cognitive is dissonancing.
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Well Randy, it depends on what you mean by a “double standard.”
If you simply mean that there are two “standards” of conduct and function within anti-racism then OK, there’s a double standard in that sense.
But most people use the term “double standard” to imply an inconsistency and/or unfairness. For example, few people would call the fact that women and men have different restrooms a “double standard.” This is because they see a logical reason why there are two restrooms—one with all stalls, and another with stalls and urinals. people are being treated differently based on gender, but it makes sense, so we don’t have an issue with it.
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Abagond:
Barbara, no harm intended sista. Our signals got crossed up, I Apologize! Back to the lab. As black people, we must take ownership of our race and culture. We complain about this and that, while others outside of our race are gettin’ fat from our cultural legacy as african people. I don’t have patience for the bs anymore, I Don’t! This issue is specific to blackwomen, which is why I mentioned Kim K and J-Lo. Blackwomen never lost their crown. Whitemen had their way with our “Black Gold” for 500 plus years, and they want us to view mixed whitewomen as an updated version of the real thing, Offensive! Whitemen can’t continue playing bulls**t games with blackwomen. They need to get a spine, and admit the obvious. Stop throwing exoticized whitewomen in our faces, It’s about blackwomen. They had them, lost them, and now they’re trying to get them back by any means necessary. Abagond, Barbara…Keep It Eye Level!!!
Tyrone
Eaagle Status
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Congregationalist minister and abolitionist Samuel Hopkins of Connecticut charged that the convention had sold out: “How does it appear . . . that these States, who have been fighting for liberty and consider themselves as the highest and most noble example of zeal for it, cannot agree in any political Constitution, unless it indulge and authorize them to enslave their fellow men . . . Ah! these unclean spirits, like frogs, they, like the Furies of the poets are spreading discord, and exciting men to contention and war.” Hopkins considered the Constitution a document fit for the flames.
Dear,,,
That is pretty much what, I consider this post to be. The fortunate part is that, I don’t feel bound by and will very happily go my merry way without much concern. I will express solidarity in one part though, I find those annoying white liberals who insist on speaking for the blacks, jews, extremely annoying and wish they could just keep their collective mouths shut. I also feel the same way about Abagond telling me what it is to be white. When you become white then you can lecture and when I become black, I still won’t lecture you about being black because I believe in leaving people to their own devices.
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The Latino Perspective: Is the Black Anti-Racist an Oxymoron?
As a Latino, I have an outside perspective to this on-going racial drama. My personal experience: blacks are, more often than not, anti-Hispanic bigots with a collective inflated sense of entitlement. I have experienced much more racism directed at me from African Americans than from whites, and all of my Latin friends and family have stories similar to my own about black-on-brown crime and discrimination.
We scoff at black activists who purport to represent all people of color. They are nothing to us, and your struggle is your own.
Kil Ja Kim’s argument, and I presume your own too Abagond, isn’t about the pursuit of true racial justice either. It is about power and trading on the “white guilt” of poor deluded fools to attain more of it (like some of the commenters on your blog).
The rich whites want power, poor whites want power and blacks want power .. but few actually care about real justice. Fortunately, you will all lose power in the end because Hispanic Americans are the only growing demographic in this country, and we will have the power one day – sooner than you think.
We are also unencumbered by white guilt and rightly unconcerned with the history of US racial relations. Our history began in this country, for most of us anyway, approximately 40 years ago, and it’ll reshape racial relations in the next 40. Until that happens; however, Abagond, please remember:
1.Don’t call us, we’ll call you.
2.Stop speaking for us. We can talk for ourselves.
3.Stop trying to point out internal contradictions in our communities, we know what they are, we are struggling around them, and I really don’t know how black people can be helpful to hispanics to clear these up.
4.Don’t ever say some shit to me about how you feel silenced, marginalized, discriminated against, or put in your place as a black person. Period.
5.Stop calling me brother. I will tell you when you are family.
6.Start thinking of what it would mean, in terms of actual structured social arrangements, for blackness and black identity – even the black pro-immigrant/Latino kind (because there really is no redeemable or reformed black identity) – to be destroyed.
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King said:
We completely agree on this definition.
If I may prevail upon you further, where might one find an explanation of the framework which fully justifies the manner in which, under the banner of “anti-racism”, black folks and their opinions are treated differently from white folks and their opinions?
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you can’t make a blanket statement such as this abagond, because (and i’ve said this before) but you don’t know every white person in america, and with the attitude you have I doubt you know many intimately. and you can say well you are quoting another writer, but, it is obvious that you not only cosign it , but put a A+ 5star rating of aproval to the writers thoughts. Look man there are tons of white people who try to be color blind, who interact with blacks and love black people, but they run into racist road blocks from blacks like you all the time, dude there are two sides to every coin you really need to take your head out of the sand and let go of the hate. i
I have two kids and they are mostly color blind, I don’t spew my views in front of them, I let them make thier own minds up,
some of your followers might be kids. do you really want them to inheret the hate you have towards other white kids. who might be as poor and down trodden as they are?
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and I’ll tell you a white guy I’m proud of more than anyone, my dad.
I saw him work and care for his family and he didn’t identify with anyone based on color, he identified with his family and his mother and father. not because they were white , but because he was proud of them as I am of him. he is more color blind then you will ever be abagond. and by the way his old neighborhood in southwest philly is now all black. I never once heard him complain about that.
He went to west catholic and graduated the same year as wilt chamberlan and hung out with wilt a handful of times. Wilt went to public school but my dad and all his friends use to go to alot of Wilts games. My Dad is Irish descent and married an Italian girl even though some of his family were against it because there was alot of competition between the immigrants at that time.
He was always respectful for italian culture and had immense respect for my father in law (my maternal grandfather) even though POP didnt like him at first. did he get all mad and call my moms dad a bigot and try to turn my mom against him like some of black kids dating white girls do today. no. he gave him respect and he got respect.
you need to realize that most middle class and poor whites don’t have the white priviledge to the degree that you think they do. and some of thier distain for black come from thier own experience between competing people who have thier own racist agendas.
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and because of the strong family values that I grew up with, I care about the world my kids will face. not becuase of thier color but because I love the shi$t out of them. and I don’t want them to feel like they don’t have a right to be proud of who they are because of the color of thier skin.
There has to come a time when everyone gets past it for the benefit of all human kind.
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sorry (HIS father in law) my grandpop
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and by the way most urban areas at least where I am from are mostly black and the only whites who benefit are the very rich in those areas. the white minority in these areas sometimes feel the brunt of black frustrations of the rich elete and take it out on poor whites. right or wrong ?
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here is some truth for you
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Abagond, appreciate your blog even out here in India! You really have your finger on the button!.
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“you need to realize that most middle class and poor whites don’t have the white priviledge to the degree that you think they do. and some of thier distain for black come from thier own experience between competing people who have thier own racist agendas.” dave
Translation: Middle class and poor whites have very little white privilege but the racist conduct of black people turns them anti-black.
LOL so there you have it folks its OUR fault white people are racist *rolleyes*.
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robert who said that. that is what you want to believe i said.
I said that sometimes friction between races happen because of experience, and that happens on both sides.
but nobody wants to acknowedge when the everyday black person hurts the everyday white person, and that may shape his racist opinion, not white supremacy alone. and most everyday white people are struggling to make it just like the next guy.
the anti racist movement succeeded against the everyday white people they are afraid to stand up to black people . but the rich elete whites, you didn’t even make a dent
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The main white racist psychological warfare tactics are – “blacks practice victimology and blame whitey for all their failings” as if personal responsibility for our own lives and structural white supremacy as a major obstacle in our lives can’t both be true and factors at the same time, and also their contant denial of structural white supremacist racism.
They use these tactics all the time to teach their people that racism is a thing of the past so any problems black people have are all their own fault and nothing to do with white people, so nothing needs to be done and they don’t have to change at all, and to program their people so when they hear black complaints about racism all they hear “excuse making and race hustling”.
I feel the best way to destroy this tactic is to shine a spotlight on it, constantly call it out – expose it and expose the reason why it is being used, turn it into a cliché and ridicule it to the point that whites feel ashamed to use it the same way prefacing a racist statement with “I’m not racist but….” and “I’ve got black friends” as a defense for racism has become a racist cliché.
They are trying to hold us to an impossible standard to deter us from talking about white supremacy; where the only way black people are legitimately allowed to complain about structural white supremacy is if there are only few uneducated criminals in the black community even though white supremacy makes a substantial contribution to the problems in the black community. We can’t let them browbeat us into silence with these tactics we have to keep speaking out and shine a spotlight on what they are up to.
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@ Anchor Bay
I am amused by the fact that everyone is ignoring your comment. I suppose it’s painful for them to see the corruption and hate reflected in the mirror.
@ Robert
American Whites, American Asians, American Hispanics, and Mixed Americans of all stripes would like -nothing more- than to be free of the millstone that is the Black American community around our collective necks. As an Asian American, my people were viciously discriminated against a hundred years ago, but rather than blame the White Man for our problems, we demonstrated that we could be just as successful, just as prosperous, in spite of the discrimination. And now? Asian Americans are even more prosperous as a group than the average White.
You are victims of your own refusal to recognize that your own scapegoating of Whites is directly responsible for your utter failure to succeed as a group, in spite of having every advantage thrown your way by the government.
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** YAWN **
Derailing dave brought his “asian” and “latino” trolls with him, it would appear. Of course, my case of “Troll-Off” is on back-order, damnit!
When a troll talks, it always sounds like the noise of sheeple to me…sort of like this:
😎
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@Alafas,
“The results show that as a whole Asian American families have higher median incomes than White families. However, this is because in most cases, the typical Asian American family tends to have more members who are working than the typical White family. It’s not unusual for an Asian American family to have four, five, or more members working. The different faces of hard work © Jean-Marc Truchet/Getty Images A more telling statistic is median personal income (also known as per capita income). The results above show that Asian Americans still trail Whites on this very important measure”
source:http://www.asian-nation.org/model-minority.shtml
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@ Alafas:
On Tuesday you were a white anti-racist. Now you are an Asian American who thinks racism is no big deal.
As to Anchor Baby he is probably white too: anchor babies are a white Republican trope, yet he used the name without irony. That would be like a black female commenter calling herself Welfare Queen.
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Sepultura, lol I have a few spare cans of Troll-b-gone, its a bo bo brand but it works just as well. These guys are just as bad as our recently banned buddy “Leeroy Brown”. Or is he back?
Abagond, you have A LOT of patience. I don’t know how you do it.
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@ Gen:
Your cans of Troll-b-gone must be expired, LOL
I’d venture to guess that ‘Anchor Ba(b)y’ is ‘Leeroy Brown’, given the lack of imagination used to come up with those stupid names. He (or she) is most likely using pop’s laptop because meemaw got sick of the bestiality sites popping up on her computer! 😀
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I noticed that nobody wants to own up to anything. My experinces with racism are mainly from Americans. I don’t get discrimated for being black, per say as it I don’t fit any real label. All I see on this blog sometimes is the woe as me and nothing my fault. White people and black people seem to like spewing the same crap and then turn around to say to the other side smells like s***. Tyrone, you’re not better than white people judge. You have become what you hate and you don’t realize that your veiw isn’t helping anyone.
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@ Afalas:
You’re right, they don’t like what they see in the mirror so they ignored it completely and discount me as white (paranoia – wonder if abagond checks under his bed at night for whitey). My comment presents an uncomfortable truth, and my broader point is still on the table: we all self-select, whether it is rich and poor, educated and non-educated, black, white and brown, etc., and there is always a group or collections of groups on top. Abagond and his fan boys are not interested in justice – they wouldn’t be obsessed with the destruction of white identity and whiteness otherwise. They want on top, and they want the power. If they got it, they’d be just as bad (or as my own personal experience illustrates, much worse than whites). I’d respect abagond and company much more if they just dropped the pretense of a desire for social justice and just admit they’re out for power and probably to some extent, blood.
@ abagond:
BTW, I was an anchor baby, I laugh and joke about it because it is true. My parents both became citizens of the USA after receiving legal status under the ’87 amnesty, and ironically both of them are now conservative republicans and against illegal immigration (like many Hispanics their age who have been in this country since before the 1990’s). It is hypocritical, but common.
I get why you can’t conceive that a man of color like myself doesn’t sympathize with your struggle against the white power structure; your world-view is myopic and you probably never considered walking in my (our) shoes and opening yourself up to the possibility that the black community has acted as an oppressor towards my own.
My comment doesn’t fit in your paradigm, so you discount it and me with an ad hominem attack asserting I am white. It’s a common ploy used to negate the truth in opposing claims without the burden of introspection and debate. That’s fine, and I don’t really care – I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind here – obsession doesn’t release its hold on people that easy.
I do appreciate the approval of my previous comment despite its content. You earn points by allowing contrary opinion on this blog. I read over some of your older posts yesterday and actually agree, in part, with many of them. For example, I have been the subject of the white paternalistic impulse. It’s embarassing and humiliating.
Regardless, as I stated above: racial politics are all about power – the have’s vs the have-not’s. It is intellectually dishonest for you, Kim or anyone else who advocates the destruction of another group’s racial identity to drape their jihad up in “justice drag.”
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Doesn’t everybody like power and privilege? I don’t think many people who have them give them up willingly, though they might give lip service to the idea to score points politically or with individuals they want to appease. See: Men and women (who both have power and privilege in different arenas).
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@Anchorbaby
“I have experienced much more racism directed at me from African Americans than from whites, and all of my Latin friends and family have stories similar to my own about black-on-brown crime and discrimination.”
And you do know that there is anti-black racism in the Latino community right? Not all Latinos, but some do believe the racial stereotypes that have been assigned to Black people, and there have been cases of acts of violence towards Blacks because of their skin color.
“Fortunately, you will all lose power in the end because Hispanic Americans are the only growing demographic in this country, and we will have the power one day – sooner than you think. “
In absolute numbers yes, but not in terms of true economic and political power. White supremacy dictates that only White people have an absolute monopoly over the levers of power. We will be closer to a South African example more than anything else….
“Our history began in this country, for most of us anyway, approximately 40 years ago, and it’ll reshape racial relations in the next 40.”
Huh? Tell that the Puerto Ricans who have been victims of American economic and political policies since the Spanish American War. Tell that to the Mexican Americans whose families have been in the US, when what is now know as the Western part of the USA, was a part of Mexico.
@Alafas
“And now? Asian Americans are even more prosperous as a group than the average White.”
Maybe so among Americans of Japanese and Korean descent, but definitely not among Americans of South Asian decent (Vietnamese, Cambodians, Samoans, etc.).
@Usagi
“Tyrone, you’re not better than white people judge. You have become what you hate and you don’t realize that your view isn’t helping anyone.”
So tried of this “hate will eat you alive” and “it doesn’t solve anything argument”….Did hate eat alive the White people pictured in the lynching photo on this blog? NO! Did hating Black people help White people economically, socially, and politically? YES! So please lets stop with the Black people shouldn’t be mad, angry, and for those to choose to feel so, filled with hate…….
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@ greyships
Could not agree more. I am not condemning abagond or Kim necessarily for desiring the power as much as being intellectually dishonest about their objective.
But I don’t view white people as bad or evil either … just as the group that happened to end up on top (for the time being) in this country. No one stays on top forever tho.
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The blue pill takers are usually always convinced that blacks want hegemony and revenge. Their historical or present day basis for this (mass delusion) is – what ? PROJECTION???
The last time I checked most black folks just want racism to end. Some (not all) want a fair share of the wealth (with compounded interest and punitive damages) that America has systematically denied descendants of slavery for the unpaid slave labor that made America into a rich and powerful nation that benefits white people to this very day. (Do not ask me to prove this – educate yourself!)
Reparations might actually close the wealth gap that persists between blacks and whites, the difference in unemployment and underemployment rates, and potentially level off the very un-level and privileged (for whites) playing field.
Your silly idea regarding black people wanting blood and power over others have no basis in fact.
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@ MK82
I won’t disagree with you. In fact, I freely admit to the negative stereotypes Hispanic hold about blacks. It is widely believed in the Latin community that blacks are lazy, mean-spirited and only out for themselves. This is not necessarily my personal view. I am describing a sentiment held by many Latinos. However, the perception within the Latin community is also that we have been victimized by African Americans – especially when we were new in this country and vulnerable without many resources. Perception becomes reality.
I am not into La Raza and all that mess. I have done well for myself and have few complaints with my situation, but due to the demographic shifts in the USA it’s obvious to me that there will be changes in the current power structure. It has already begun as the GOP lash out at undocumented workers and the Democrats pander to Latino groups. Black issues will be pushed more and more to the side as our issues take precedence in th future. On TV, you’re already seeing fewer black characters and more token Indians (from India) and Latinos. These are, of course, just signs … no real power, but a recognition of what the future holds. I am not suggesting there will be some radical anti-white revolution … just a lot of intermarriage with the infusion of new brown-skinned power brokers alongside their lighter-skinned peers.
I don’t forsee a South African model in the USA’s future as much as a South American model where large Mestizo populations suppress the Indios (or blacks in this case) without much guilt or remorse. I don’t believe it is right, but that’s how I see it going down.
Your wrote:
“Huh? Tell that the Puerto Ricans who have been victims of American economic and political policies since the Spanish American War. Tell that to the Mexican Americans whose families have been in the US, when what is now know as the Western part of the USA, was a part of Mexico.”
Sure, I’ll explain.
After the next amnesty, the vast majority of Latinos living in the USA will only have arrived within the past 40 years. We’ll have very shallow roots and none of the history blacks and whites share. As I said before perception becomes reality. The discrimination, or lack of it, we experience from blacks and whites will be instructive and determination our future relations with both groups as we become the racial majority.
For example: Until recently many Latinos voted republican and continue to hold conservative views. A lot of us want a closed border too. There is a hypocritical “we got in but let’s not allow anymore in” mentality among older immigrants. However, the rhetoric coming from the tea party and minute men was so anti-Hispanic, it turned many of us off from the GOP and caused us to, at least temporarily, question and rethink our political affiliation.
Likewise, the Latino perception is often that blacks hate us. That perception, whether real or not, is reality in our minds. You’ll find very few Hispanics sympathetic to a black cause of racial justice, and I don’t see that trend changing in the next few decades as we gain political and economical power. We don’t care.
Alright, folks, it’s been entertaining and illuminating, but I’m over the race talk at least for the night. Truth is, I don’t sit around and think about racial politics often. Abagond’s posts and your comments challenged me to consider it all more carefully. Thanks.
Take care.
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@Dave.
“you can’t make a blanket statement such as this abagond, because (and i’ve said this before) but you don’t know every white person in america”
But you’d like to extend the “privilege” of prejudice to what you call every-day-whites because they aren’t capable of taking each person as an individual and MUST lump black people together. That’s inconsistent on your part.
@Robert Bingo!
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“I am describing a sentiment held by many Latinos. However, the perception within the Latin community is also that we have been victimized by African Americans – especially when we were new in this country and vulnerable without many resources.”
I think you are speaking from a very narrow viewpoint, and confuse your personal and ethnic experiences with the experiences of all Latinos. But I don’t want to fall into the trap that many Whites do “i.e. I will tell you what you own experiences are” so I will leave this one alone……
“I don’t forsee a South African model in the USA’s future as much as a South American model where large Mestizo populations suppress the Indios (or blacks in this case) without much guilt or remorse.”
Your conclusion isn’t very clear. Are you saying that Latinos, as distinct group of people, i.e. mestizos, will magically overcome white supremacy and control both Whites and Blacks or are you saying that Latinos will JOIN in and support the current racial cast system (literally mix in with Whites or adopt a white mind-frame)? If what you are saying is the second option, then I can say such a reality is already at play in Southern Florida with the Cubans. However, the system in Florida stills reinforces the current system of White Supremacy, as almost all the Cubans consider themselves to be White and support White cause (i.e conservative agenda aka defending the status quo). And your long term assumption still has to wrestle with the fact that many Whites hate Latinos just as much as they do Blacks, i.e the focus on illegal immigration, and the fact that many Latinos are just as educationally, socially, and economically just as segregated as Blacks…..
“For example: Until recently many Latinos voted republican and continue to hold conservative views. A lot of us want a closed border too.”
Again you use your own ethnic experience to define the voting patterns of all Latinos. Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, and many central Americans, particularly who live in the Northeast and upper Mid West vote solidly Democrat. Mostly of the Latino elected officials that represent these areas are Democratic officials. Furthermore, if we examine voting patterns for Hispanics who voted for Democrat presidential candidate we see: In the 1992 presidential election 61%; In the 1996 election 72%; In the 2000 election 67%; in 2004 election 52 percent; and in 2008 70 percent of the Hispanic vote.
“You’ll find very few Hispanics sympathetic to a black cause of racial justice, and I don’t see that trend changing in the next few decades as we gain political and economical power.”
In my experiences this not necessarily true. I won’t deny that there are serious racial issues between both groups, but I can honestly say from the fact that both groups suffer from the same chronic social and economic ills, that in many cases on the group and individual levels natural coalitions have been formed, both community and political, to get results (i.e. more funding for schools, addressing police brutality, etc.) Maybe my perspective is skewed because the majority of Hispanics that I deal with are either Puerto Ricans or Dominicans, and they tend to have a longer history of being and this country, and more importantly a longer history of dealing with black people? I dunno, I am not afraid to say that I am NO an expert on this issue.
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“I am not suggesting there will be some radical anti-white revolution … just a lot of intermarriage with the infusion of new brown-skinned power brokers alongside their lighter-skinned peers.”
I see what you are saying,so please ignore my previous comment about you not being clear. But doesn’t this assumption mean that the Latinos who intermarry with Whites will ultimately become White, and most importantly adopt a White mindframe? And ultimately doesn’t this mean that not only Blacks, but dark skinned Hispanics (i.e. in other words Hispanics who have not intermixed with White Americans) will end up being oppressed too? So, in other words, Whiteness is just being expanded to include Whites who are mixed with Hispanic heritage, and those individuals will fight just as hard as they full blooded compatriots to defined White Supremacy? How translate into Hispanics taking over?
“On TV, you’re already seeing fewer black characters and more token Indians (from India) and Latinos. These are, of course, just signs … no real power, but a recognition of what the future holds.”
Trust me, White people will never allow the majority of people we see on TV but to be anybody but themselves, demographics be damned!
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I meant to say “how does this translate into Hispanics taking over?” I have written too much people, good night!
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@ Berto
You really need to learn how to type without dishonestly presenting your idealistic, anecdotal, Latino, “well-wishing” (which is what the majority of your post is) with actual “fact”.
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@ Berto
I hear this a lot from white folks. To clarify, when I say “white”, I mean actual White Anglos and “Wannabe, Well-wishing, W.I.N.O Hispanics” who are “Brown when Appropriate”. When confronted about it, there is never any proof provided, outside of some vague “You Around You!” statement. So I ask you. Outside of your own obvious projected fears and insecurities, what actual proof do you have to make this statement of yours?
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What was it the romans used to do? Conquer and divide? For those who hold the power it is essential that the have-nots fight among themselves. Latinos vs blacks, just like the poor whites vs blacks have always done.
As for the Top (which holds the true power in US) it is good to remember that today proximately 1% of americans own 95% of the wealth in USA. Just like in any Third world country.
As long as people buy into the illusion that “anybody can make it if they just try hard and play by the rules”, those 1% are going to have a really nice life, while those 99% fight among themselves.
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The recent string of posts have been relatively feisty. admittedly, not sure where I stand so I’ve stayed out of it. Well written, and pretty well thought out though. It’s a bit of an intellectual war going on it seems. Not sure if I have anything relevant to add, but it’s a welcome shift in perspective. I’m curious though; what ends are you after? So we get whites(as a group) to admit to historical wrongs and shift to a more black friendly way of thinking. They come to us weeping in repentance. The world now seems “right.” Then what? Seriously, I don’t know. What? Do we have an interracial elders panel to discuss the creation of a more perfect world? Deep within I want revenge. I want to stand over them, the way they’ve stood over us, but then what? Just asking.
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I do not want their tears of repentance or their blood. I would be quite happy if they (White Americans) seriously tried to live up to THEIR OWN IDEALS as laid out in the Declaration of Indepedence. I know ideals are hard to achieve in a real world, but they are not even TRYING. You might as well use the Declaration of Independence to wrap fish.
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@ Dave
I more or less agree with George Carlin. To a degree what he says is probably true of all large human societies, but America has become way worse in that respect over the past 30 years. In part because Republicans have been able to use race and religion to get tons of ordinary whites to vote against their class interests.
That said, there is more going on than just class. Race is one of them. Middle-class blacks, for example, do not live as long on average as working-class whites. Blacks are twice as likely to be out of work even after you adjust for education. Etc.
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why do people still believe in races anyways. I hate how it’s so hard for a lot of people to see others as individuals. that’s what I perceive to be truly anti-racist. being anti-race in general. because as long as we have these racial groups, there will always be racism. it’s different from culture, because culture can always change. but your looks don’t. your nose doesn’t. etc.
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@sepultura since you seem cool as heck here is a vid responce to your ba ba black sheep vid
plus I like your name
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or I could play a “sepultura” vid but I thought it might be a little heavy for this blog. see I do think a little before I post
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Good point dee, well the answer is; powerful individuals, and some privelaged groups benefit from our taxonomic color-coded perception of race. Race is real in the sense that there are geographically homogenous genetically clustered sub-populations, but a mere social construct, in the way we perceive them and use them to divide ourselves. So groupwise, you get winners and losers. Losers of course would rather not play the game, Winners hope it never ends.
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Likewise, the Latino perception is often that blacks hate us.
Often, the black American perspective is that Hispanics hate them. Consider this: 53% of Hispanics self-identify as white. Hispanics, like many ambiguously brown people marry whites more than any other group, and their children identify as white.
So, white hegemony will always in existence. And Hispanics are more likely to adopt the white belief about blacks.
Even so, here’s an example. An Hispanic rapper has an easier time getting crediblity in the rap world than a white rapper. So, blacks can’t hate whites that much.
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This is a good post.
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Just tell me how the cookies taste!
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what makes places like these to visit and read is all the ignorants that flow like sewage from the sewers.people who know what being white is all about.and most of these people who write incoharintly are the self hating whites.these people dont need reason,just open air.self hating whites like these people would excersize self distruction on the whites of this nation.talk about race will always be onesided.
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“The White Anti-Racist is an Oxymoron” (2003) by Kil Ja Kim argues that you cannot be white and against racism at the same time.
By “white” she does not mean having white skin. She means thinking of yourself as white and enjoying the benefits that come with it in America:
That’s just fucking up the words. I can be white and anti-racist. Should I deny I have a white skin? Being white doesn’t come from ones self, but is imposed on him by the outside world?
If I go around saying I’m not white people think I’m crazy… cause my skin is pretty white.
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…and yet you all insist on living in White nations and using White technology! Idiots, and hypocrites. Please then, go BACK to your own crowded, dirty, violent countries…leave ours to ourselves! DON’T take our aid or money! Let us be!
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@Scott:
I’m wondering how it is YOUR aid and YOUR money when people of color hold U.S. citizenship and pay income taxes?
This country belongs to all Americans. Deal with it.
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@ Scott
I’d be more than happy to leave the USA – after – America pays for the stolen slave labor that accumulated into the massive wealth that has somehow miraculously become YOUR money. Instead of bombing little non-white countries into oblivion, the US should pay its oldest debt, the trillions (including interest and damages) that was withheld from its abused labor force.
Pay me that and I’ll happily be on the next boat heading somewhere east!
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@Pale Coney
That is the most copy-pasted BS I ever saw. Bob Whitaker originally said that. Come up with you own ideas or be silent.
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@ Silentreturn,
Yeah. And I see things like “final solution” and I get a bad taste in my mouth.
@ Abagond,
Does Pale Coney’s comment qualify for deletion?
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@ Pale Coney
Your comment was plagiarized so I deleted it.
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“Middle class and poor whites have very little white privilege but the racist conduct of black people turns them anti-black.
LOL so there you have it folks its OUR fault white people are racist *rolleyes*.”
No, I don’t think that’s what he’s saying. He’s saying, why don’t we got after the major power players who benefit from most of the privilege(like the Occupy movement is doing, for all types of privilege). The rest should take care of itself.
“Don’t ever say some shit to me about how you feel silenced, marginalized, discriminated against, or put in your place as a white person. Period.” Okay, not as white people, I can see that. But me personally, I WILL comment on how marginalized I feel in both the white and black straight communities as a lesbian, whether you like it or not, and YOU need to acknowledge the hypocrisy of going on about racism and refusing to address the rampant homophobia in the black community and your own hetero privilege. Oh and before you start calling me “whitey”, I’m biracial, though apparently that means white now too. I’m also a “traitor” to the black community as I’ve been told so many times, and I’ve watched my supposed “own people” use their churches and the little religious influence they have to deny me my rights. Straight black people: as soon as most of you get a little bit of power, you use it to oppress others (women and gays come to mind). You’re no better. Yes, there is some racism in the GLBT community, but overall I’ve been treated well and welcomed in as a fellow lesbian by both whites and other blacks (as well as others). When someone calls you out on your homophobia, you trot us out and say “look there are black gay people, so we can’t be homophobic!”. Total BS! The rest of the time you’re too busy treating us like shit or “disowning us” and telling us what “traitors” we are, or beating us. Many of us feel this way, if you actually talked to us you would know that. Wanda Sykes said it best: “What’s worse, being gay or black? Being gay. You don’t get kicked out of your house and disowned for being black”. Agreed!
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[…] "Becoming anti-racist means giving up a white identity and standing with people of colour, not with white people. Come what may. It means not to lead people of colour but to follow. It means leaving the white club for good." -Abagond – click title for more – […]
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[…] "Becoming anti-racist means giving up a white identity and standing with people of colour, not with white people. Come what may. It means not to lead people of colour but to follow. It means leaving the white club for good." -Abagond – click title for more – […]
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This reminded me of a passage in Dr. King’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail:
“I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
My fellow white anti-racist allies and I need to be reminded often and sternly: Check Your Privilege! And I mean that in both senses of the word. “Check” as in examine, and if you conclude your privilege is mitigated by gender, social status or other factors… try again. And once you’ve acknowledged it “check it at the door” when you enter shared space.
Thanks for this very necessary post.
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Abagond
There was, is and never will be such a thing as a white antiracist. Whites function for 2 reasons only:
1. Self preservation
2. Dominance
To claim to be an antiracist is to go against the very principal that makes you “white”. Therefore, it is a farce.
That’s why they flock here to read what we’re talking about and thinking…to always be one step ahead of us.
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[…] Read original story here. […]
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enjoying the benifits of being white,more open air being exausted.also,the goverment,that is the black goverment run by obama and the eric holders made it a crime for whites to fight back and to talk back to minorities.and whites face double jepordy in any racist crime utter.first by the state and then railroaded by obamas anti white people.you liberals and progressives make anti white possible.what a shit hole this country has become over the last fifty years.and us racist whites as you call us didnt make this country like all you anti whites did and minorities.
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So you want me to abandon the culture i came from, spit on the sacrifices my ancestors made, give up my ethnic identity?
When pigs fly!
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Individualism is the BEST way to live. My family started from the bottom, and now we are upper middle class. You know why? Individualism. My ancestors came to a country that let them be the best they could be. They built themselves up. Blacks are just as intelligent as whites, they can work their way up to.
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I do wonder how far the white anti racist will go. It’s more than just talking the talk. They have to walk the walk.
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“My ancestors came to a country that let them be the best they could be.”
_ __ _
A country that let *them* (your ancestors) be the best *they* could be …
… but did not (and does not) let *everyone* be the best that they could be.
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Just say you’ll never see whites as good enough if they have self-determination. Apparently, poc should make all my choices in life and we’ll never get along.
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