white paternalism

Mon Jun 3rd 2013 by abagond

White paternalism is the belief that whites know what is best for people of other races, viewing them pretty much as overgrown children. It is racist since it assumes that whites know better than other races.

Examples:

White man’s burden – the duty of whites to help the lesser races. Used in the early 1900s to excuse imperialism.
White saviour films – where a white hero saves people of colour. “The Blind Side” (2009), “Dangerous Minds” (1995), etc
Western imperialism – which seeks not just control of land, trade and taxes like most empires, but goes beyond that to remaking subjects in its own image – Westernization.
American and Australian policy on natives – separating children from their parents to make them white; controlling what little land they have left.
Whites adopting African children – like Madonna and Angelina Jolie.
White allies – when they go beyond merely helping anti-racist causes to telling people of colour what to do, trying to take over.

White paternalists love to:

Point out the success of whites and the failures of blacks – Mugabe, Detroit, white inventions.
See blacks screw up or act like fools.
Talk down to blacks.
Tell blacks that they treat them better than anyone else would.
Tell blacks, in so many words, that they “saved” them from Africa.

White paternalists hate it when:

Blacks are not grateful to them.
Blacks get angry or say anything bad about whites.

You see that not just from white commenters on this blog, you see it in how they show blacks on American television. Black crime. Black buffoons. Black pathologies. Screwed-up or helpless black countries.

White paternalists do not see:

Their failed record at handling the affairs of people of colour: genocide, slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid, taking their land, taking their children, screwing up their countries – Vietnam, El Salvador, Chile, Gaza, Congo and on and on. They do not see that the most successful non-white country was one of the few countries they were not able to screw up: Japan, which shut out the West for hundreds of years.
That much of their “success” was based on screwing up the very people they are now supposedly trying to “help”. America was built on Indian land and black slave labour. The West was built on robbing the world through the Spanish, Portuguese, French and British empires. They do not see that they got to where they are through the barrel of a gun. They think it was through “values” or “institutions” or culture or genes.
That just as whites know what is in their own best interest, so do blacks and Indians and Vietnamese and everyone else. There is nothing special about white people. They point to Mugabe but not to Hitler or Stalin. They point to the black illegitimacy rate when it went over 20%, but not to the white illegitimacy rate when it went over 20%. They point to black street crime but not to Wall Street crime. Etc.

Whites say, “Where would you be without us?” Wrong: where would they be without us!

See also:

white saviour films
- The Blind Side
white man’s burden
Is the white anti-racist an oxymoron?
“Go back to Africa”
darkies – people of colour viewed paternalistically

Posted in stuff | 140 Comments

140 Responses

on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 12:14:18 rowetusi63

Finally someone else sees the craziness that has been place on People of Color. First they raped and murder Our Mothers than ripped out the seams of Our Belief System. To Us GOD was Our Mothers. Then they tried to make Us into to their own image. Damn that sounds like Genesis of their bible. But wait didn’t they write it?????? Ahhhh, the TRUTH is Slowly but Surely coming to the LIGHT!!!!!

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 13:05:48 Cornlia

Who is the woman in the picture ?

I didn’t know “illegitimate” births (whatever that means) where called “illegitimacy rate”. Interesting. Very telling.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 13:06:19 Cornlia

Wait, the picture is not the same in the email and on the site…

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 13:07:46 abagond

@ Cornlia

That was Sandra Bullock in “The Blind Side”. I have since changed the picture to something even more cringeworthy from the same film.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 13:16:05 Saikou

White people try to undermine all other races. Robb them their culture religion and let them with their perverted christian belief. Now some blind people of color embraced Christianity and call Jesus a saviour. Where is that ‘Jesus’ to help them alleviate the suffering and horribly crimes inflected upon them by whitemen? Rise against whiteman and white man’s culture embrace your own.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 13:16:22 diaryofanegress

Aba

A superiority complex is just the reverse with major overcompensation. Whites need us, literally, to live, eat (they feed on our energy force like vampires) and spawn. Due to their recessive genes, they must graft themselves onto our DNA to live and carry on their seed. Why do you think they seek us sexually?

What most whites will never admit is how dependent they really are on us. They cannot survive without pillage and theft but, due to their deep mental sickness and arrogance, they cannot accept this fact as truth so they flip the script to make themselves out to be the parental figure for all of man. When they screw up, they turn around and blame the victims for their own oppression! If we were not around, they would swallow each other alive.

I am so grateful to be black.

My connection to the Spirit deepens every day. I’m meditating HARD on their removal from this planet as well as my ascension and the universe has been responding quite nicely. The future for them looks bleak and they know this so I expect the barbaric behaviour only they can concoct to become more intense.

Be well and be safe.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 14:01:08 Randy

Don’t forget “the soft bigotry of low expectations” promulgated by the American left, along with the dependency-enabling / paternalistic welfare state.

Here again we return to the problem of “agency”. If one believes that black people are not and cannot be accountable for their social and economic situations, then the solution is to swaddle them like children.

The “left” (in the American sense) guards against criticism of that plan by promoting the narrative “Don’t blame the victims!”.

This particular concept is packed with several suspect beliefs, including:

– Black people are “victims” and thus both unaccountable for their problems or successes and in need of a help, as one would help a child.

– Treating people as accountable individuals is the same thing as “blaming” them for their state, a specious assertion.

Why does this disempowering narrative still retain such cultural currency? It’s an easy sell.

It’s a lot easier to win votes by telling people that their problems are someone else’s responsibility than it is to offer a complex, nuanced picture of the situation and challenging them to make better decisions.

Such populism is common in all communities be they black, white, rich, poor, etc.

To see an obvious example of this concept, talk to a teacher. One of the best predictors of a child’s success in any school is the attitude of the parents (individually and collectively).

Politicians and school administrators will contort themselves inside out in explaining away school performance before they’ll tell parents the uncomfortable truth that it’s their own fault that Junior is failing math.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 15:09:51 Matari

@ TruthBeTold

“What most whites will never admit is how dependent they really are on us. They cannot survive without pillage and theft but, due to their deep mental sickness and arrogance, they cannot accept this fact as truth so they flip the script to make themselves out to be the parental figure for all of man. When they screw up, they turn around and blame the victims for their own oppression! If we were not around, they would swallow each other alive.”

************************

Whiteness’ First Contact with AFRICANS might have went something like this:

“We are the Borg. Lower your defenses and surrender your men, women and children to us. We will add your cultural and biological distinctiveness to our own and attempt to completely annihilate your ancestral history! WE will ASSIMILATE you into OUR collective! Your people will adapt to SERVICE US. Resistance is futile!”

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 15:22:17 solesearch

The United States government has done more to swaddle whites than black people.

The only reason this swaddling is now looked down on is that now black people can benefit.

Don’t forget “the soft bigotry of low expectations” promulgated by the American left

I definitely agree with this as it relates to education.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 15:24:07 solesearch

Matari, I’m a big fan of Star Trek(TNG and Voyager, anyway) and have always thought the Borg represented white people.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 15:26:06 diaryofanegress

Matari:

🙂

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 15:41:52 lifelearner

I think white paternalism plays to their super inflated EGOs. Almost reminds me of an only child syndrome. The white mindset has to have their way and if not they will throw a HUGE tantrum.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 16:28:43 Vagabond Abscond

Wow, that picture. “How adorable, that little boy is so kind to his big pet Negro! Did they adopt him from a shelter or find him on the street?”

This is one of those posts that kind of summarizes your whole blog, or at least the race-themed posts.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 16:49:56 naishee

“They do not see that the most successful non-white country was one of the few countries they were not able to screw up: Japan, which shut out the West for hundreds of years.”

There’s a reason South Africa considered the Japanese “honorary whites”. But it is kinda interesting that although the west fully acknowledges Japan as an equal economically and technologically (not morally though), they never connect the dots…. “Pretty much the only major non-western country that avoided colonialism”.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 18:11:38 Vagabond Abscond

@naishee I’ll admit I never connected those dots before this post. It makes sense though.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 18:20:46 Matari

@Solesearch

What?? You’re not a fan of DEEP SPACE 9 ?? : ))

Seriously though…if the Borg represents white folk (they do!) then we know their defeat is imminent and their days of patriarchy – and supposed paternalism – are numbered!

@Randy

Give it up. No one here is buying your same old tired repetitive nonsense!
No matter how many ways you spin your white gaze (white racial frame) we see your cow excrement coming from miles away.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 18:51:48 Randy

@Matari:

Your comments are level 2-3 on Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement.

See here to better yourself: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/the-seven-levels-of-disagreement/

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 18:51:54 rj

Always excellent articles. One blogger that really is a white paternalist is Robert Lindsay,who was on your page about “race realism”. I looked on his website and couldn’t believe how he claims to be a “liberal” but has so many racial slurs and tells broad stereotypes about blacks like he said that “anyone who is black and fights dogs is a” and he used the n word. That is a white paternalist/racist if there was one. You had an article about Steve Sailor but what do you think about Robert Lindsay?

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 19:34:12 Matari

Randy

As a deliberately *stuck* white person imho you’re simply no longer deserving of any of those higher levels! Many here (Abagond, Franklin, Bulanik, Kwamla, Demenera and others) have already decimated your silly arguments. Nice try though, but I’d rather wash and wax my walls & ceiling than dissect your unoriginal race realist (aka real racists) points.

But if you INSIST, you’re always welcome to visit the broken record department. It was set up for obtuse thinking people just like you!! lol
There you’ll find plenty of other excellent refutations to your lame assertions – refutations that you’ll undoubtedly ignore and resist – as usual.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 20:11:25 white paternalism | AntiRacism & Privilege ...

[…] White paternalism is the belief that whites know what is best for people of other races, viewing them pretty much as overgrown children. It is racist since it assumes that whites know better than other races. […]

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 20:21:44 sondis

Abagon really caught the moment in that picture with the little white kid, petting his negro, like a common dog.

@ Matari:

Way to go, escorting Randy to the broken record dept, I’m sure he’ll feel at home. ^_^

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 21:22:12 abagond

@ Diary:

“What most whites will never admit is how dependent they really are on us. They cannot survive without pillage and theft but, due to their deep mental sickness and arrogance, they cannot accept this fact as truth so they flip the script to make themselves out to be the parental figure for all of man. When they screw up, they turn around and blame the victims for their own oppression! If we were not around, they would swallow each other alive.”

Excellent summary.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 21:32:23 Adeen

Blacks should build their own businesses and take responsibility for their own lives. We should never rely on Whites or the government for anything. In fact, people of all races should take responsibility for their actions and not rely on the government.

And Whites do need us more than we need them, that is why they brought us on slave ships to the New World so that they could have someone to blame for their problems. And also help build this country. If Blacks and Latinos left this country, this country will go down a lot, which this country is already going down the tubes.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 21:35:16 Riverside_Rob

You mention Japan as a place the west was banned from – you do realise that post 1945 Japan was rebuilt by white America. Same for Post 1952 South Korea – both thriving, non-white economies and cultures. Do you see “what we did for them”? or do you think they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps? How do you explain the failure of Zimbabwe, once the breadbasket of Africa when it was Rhodesia, now it’s the basket case of Africa? How is it that, after the whites were chased from the country, the blacks were unable to run it properly – is that the fault of the whites?

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 21:38:47 Adeen

And Whites don’t know what is best for us anymore than we know what is best for OURSELVES. Whites don’t know our struggles or thoughts nor do they know what is like to be stereotyped and discriminated against. So how will they ever know what is best for Blacks and other minorities? I am not saying this out of hatred, I don’t hate Whites but out of experience. Whites need us more than we need them.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 21:43:24 Randy

Matari,

My comment to this post discussed the political and philosophical manifestations of “white paternalism” and had nothing to do with “race realism”.

You’ve still yet to reach above level 3. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/the-seven-levels-of-disagreement/

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 22:45:17 gro jo

“White paternalists love to:

Point out the success of whites and the failures of blacks – Mugabe, Detroit, white inventions.” “They point to Mugabe but not to Hitler or Stalin.” Abagond, how is Mugabe a failure? His land distribution program did what it was supposed to do, i.e. transfer ownership of the land from a minority, whose ancestors stole the land and reduced the majority to slavery. Was the process immaculate? No but neither was the dispossession of the Africans by the whites. Note that the media don’t point out the crimes of Paul Kagame, who is, in part, responsible for the near genocidal war in the Congo. Could it be because his policy accords with the interests of the West? The question I want answered when I hear comparisons made between Mugabe and Hitler is who are Mugabe’s jews? After years of propaganda, even the BBC was forced to admit the partial success of the reform:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11764004. South Africa under Mandela abjured any desire to implement the program that won them the leadership of the anti-apartheid struggle. Mandela was lionized in the western media for that betrayal. Hell, in order to protect the profit of mining corporations last august 34 African miners were gunned down. South African farm workers fare no better under ANC rule.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 22:46:41 Beautywoc

Vanessa Williams (former Miss America) was on the view when this movie premiered and pointed out this very things. The ladies ripped her apart.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 22:56:57 Brothawolf

On point as usual.

White people have a habit of thinking they know what’s best for POC when they hardly know what’s best for themselves.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 23:20:58 pegodaaj

Lots of good points in the article and in the comments. The first time I watched The Blind Side, I didn’t like it for many of the reasons stated here. It’s a “rich white woman saves poor black kid” story. This is problematic in so many ways. African Americans (except for the brief appearance of a coach and a social worker) are presented in negative ways. When I watched it today I noted several instances when Leigh Anne Tuohy (“the rich white woman”), who is supposedly anti-racist, does racist things.

1. Early in the film she ask Michael, “do you have a mother…what about a grandmother.” She never asks about male relatives.
2. When Michael says he doesn’t like being called “Big Mike,” Leigh Anne doesn’t ask what he would like to be called, just says we will call you Michael.
3. She refers to his brother as a “boy” after they eat at the restaurant.
4, She corrects his grammar, saying it’s “you HAVE clothes”
5. She inaccurately says that “half of all intercity kids drop out of JC after a year.” This stat is true for virtually all college students, regardless of “class,” “race,” or college/university of choice.
6. She makes numerous comments negative comments about the “black” side of town.

The comment from one of her friends at lunch with the “overpriced salad” asking if “this is a white guilt think” stood out to me, too. It’s racist, in part, but I wonder if there is a larger truth there.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 23:30:37 mary burrell

That picture from the Blindside helps me to remember why I hated this film. The little white boy and his big pet negro. Yes, that’s pretty sickening.

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 23:33:17 mary burrell

This was a great post by the way. It is insulting when some whites talk down to blacks and treat them like stupid children. It’s for our own good you know. *sarcasm*

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on Mon Jun 3rd 2013 at 23:58:08 mary burrell

If my memory serves me correctly, The real Michael said he didn’t care for the Blindside himself.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:07:05 Randy

rj:

One blogger that really is a white paternalist is Robert Lindsay,who was on your page about “race realism”.

Lindsay offers a fine example of “progressive” white paternalism. He believes that black people simply aren’t capable of self-sufficiency, but being the compassionate liberal that he is, wants the state to make up for this inherent lack of ability. How lucky for all of you that papa cares so much.

If this belief system isn’t manifestly degrading and insulting, I don’t know what is. And yet black voters consistently give 90%+ support to the party which continuously infantilizes them and works tirelessly to deny them school choice.

So what exactly has been the return on this investment?

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:17:54 abagond

@ Randy

The bigotry of low expectation is a good example. So is your view of blacks as crybabies. Your comments positively OOZE white paternalism. Blacks are pretty much spoiled children while whites are the wise, patient, well-meaning parents.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:24:23 v8driver

i understand the sense of urgency from a visceral gut level, i don’t think the millenials have quite cut the mooring line, there is backchannel chatter with regards to numbers versus baby boomers etc…
and there is always agents provocateurs? sub caesarem?
and i read the chicken bone thing for about the 4th time today on the trolley today, and i get the anger and the rage and my solution was to block, if ya don’t know ya better ask someone.
i feel a real analogy here to me home, my hood, a lot of times, it is to be ignored to know you’re on to something… it is very harsh
and anonymous, please, guy fawlkes, read up on it he blew himself up for not a thing, quest failed.
and on some real ish i get tbt with the most like yoga/pilates set coming in to the boutique asking about yurugu (aint she a doctor?) i been called level 57
this is just not a street level thing here
they a couple comments i wish wasnt deleted however i unloaded on abagond many times and it is the past
some i tell the black people they accepted me
others i tell noone else could put up with me
the rest well my mom is one of those liberals until you bring a black girl home, and then …
the others sound just like …
xenophobia, malcom x read in jail just like i did, my cellies hated it books was my hustle in jail my gawd the things it takes to walk straight and be a citizen and respect

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:24:41 abagond

Tax cuts for oil companies – not a handout
Subsidies to agribusiness – not a handout
GI Bill – not a handout
FHA loans – not a handout
Pell Grants – not a handout
Homestead Act – not a handout
Social Security – not a handout
Medicare – not a handout
Mortgage deductions for middle-class homeowners – not a handout
Borrowing money from China to pay for tax cuts for the rich – not a handout

money to help poor black people – a handout

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:27:57 v8driver

maybe it were 53 idk this dude had me looked up and he was not pleased

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:31:18 v8driver

all i’m sayin is don’t tell me i’m paternalistic yous don’t share me and my peoples problems a bunch of paunchy full time internet enabled something or other as if i dont belong

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 00:58:47 Iris

@ lifelearner

I agree that it’s all about ego. I see it in everyone who relates to other races, peoples and cultures in a paternalistic way. It’s not really about helping anyone. It’s about placing everyone else beneath them so that they can feel better about themselves and, when they show their paternalism, it is so they can stroke their egos for being such noble people and caring about `lesser beings’ when others don’t.

e.g. I see it with the White westerners showing `concern’ over East Asians getting double eyelid surgery. They don’t really care. It’s just the idea that an entire race of people might want to look like them is so flattering and showing their pity makes their egos swell even more. After all, if they don’t bask in the glory of thinking they are the most gorgeous race on the planet, they are surely higher beings with superior morals and empathy.

Made me feel sick when someone pulled the `I want to donate money to help poor, starving African children’ line and began crying. She has never donated a penny to anything and she thinks she deserves hugs all around, pats on the back and praise for simply thinking of some random Black child for a few moments?

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 01:01:32 abagond

@ Riverside Rob

You are priceless.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 01:16:05 mochasister

As everyone else has stated I HATED that The Blindside was even made. I could tell from the trailers that it was going to be another Mighty Whitey film designed to make whites feel all warm and cozy inside. I refused to watch it for the longest; the only reason why I finally did see it is because my hairdresser bought it from an “independent movie distributor” who happened to be passing through and she played it in the salon. Sandra Bullock really needs to stick to chick flicks. I hope she doesn’t treat her Black adopted son like the character she portrayed.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 02:07:19 pegodaaj

If you haven’t seen the “White People Ruin Everything” image, it is a must see: http://miamicomedyfest.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/White-People-Ruin-Everything-by-Howard-Zinn.jpg

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 04:34:31 Rick Violette

Chile is a white country, 70% of chilean are European descendants, get your facts straight and stop spreading lies about South American countries

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 04:39:09 V-4

Got to be honest; always looked at the borg as being religion myself, beyond being an “evil” version of the federation anyways.

That aside; isn’t much of this practically demanded and to some extent agreed with by even many people on this blog?

How many people seem to lay everything down at the feet of “mighty whitey”, how its all his fault, think about how much hate there seems to be for the asians due to their success.

Maybe its just me but a lot of times; activists whether they be pro-woman, pro-black, pro-etc……seem to be kind of like the other half of Uncle Ruckus when you actually look at their statements and how they view their chosen cause, the only difference is that instead of hating them like their opposers do they pity them.

But both of those points of view, imply some level of bigotry or sense of superiority.

For instance; don’t most people here think its the white man’s burden to help out all the non-white races and that they can’t fix themselves on their own?

Isn’t the desire to “better” the various ethnic communities going to ultimately remake them in something closer to their social and economic images?

So its good for Josephine Baker to have her rainbow adoptions but its bad for Madonna and Angelie?

Genocide and slavery pretty much accomplished what they set out to do; though the genocide was kind of on the accidental side to some extent or at least certainly wouldn’t have got anywhere without the 90% or so of deaths attributable to disease.

Isn’t the capitalastic half of vietnam actually doing pretty well?

For that matter; isn’t congo starting to do better as well?

Didn’t Japan adopt many american values after WW2?

All this being said; white saviour movies are pretty gag worthy and anyone who has even a basic knowledge of the countries history should know how far we got on screwing other people over.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 05:29:46 white paternalism | Abagond | Community Village...

[…] White paternalism is the belief that whites know what is best for people of other races, viewing them pretty much as overgrown children. It is racist since it assumes that whites know better than o… […]

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 06:29:23 abagond

@ Ruck Violette

Right, and Detroit’s decline was not caused by blacks nor are non-white races “lesser races”. And Mugabe, as gro jo pointed out, is not as terrible as supposed. This whole post is about the white paternalistic view of the world and how way off it is.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 06:54:05 The Sad Truth

I suppose this is what we get for teaching a race that can’t reason how to read and write.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 07:12:10 abagond

@ rj

Any White American who uses the n-word is racist. So is anyone who, like him, believes that Jamaicans have an IQ of 70. I mean, come on.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 07:22:12 The Sad Truth

Sorry to dilute the exquisite scent of someone-else-is-to-blame-for-all-my-problems-waaaaaah. I apologize.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 07:29:05 abagond

@ Randy

Oh please. Most blacks vote for the Democrats because the Republicans are way worse:

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/the-southern-strategy/

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 07:40:41 southerngirl

My daddy sez if it wasn’t for white people ya’ll would still be runnin round in africa with bones in your noses lol. He also said to stay away from n…..r boys unless i wanna get aids and chris brownded lol. He moved us to Canada to ge away from ya’ll but theirs still black boys here lol one in my class is even kinda cute does he really have aids?

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 08:20:24 Brothawolf

Ladies and gentlemen,

Take a look at some of the comments by those of Randy, The Sad Truth, Riverside Bob and southerngirl. This is white paternalism talking. Although, reading southergirl’s brain draining comment, I can only assume that she’s/he’s not serious and is here for a few yuks.

I find it funny how whites feel the desire to tell POC how to behave, what to think and how to feel. Yet, they are virtually SILENT when it comes to their own behaving foolishly or criminally.

Whenever whites act up and act out, we usually hear about light sentences, especially if they’re middle or upper class. All they would get is a slap on the wrist, and have their craziness covered to protect their image. Yet, let one black person – for instance – commit a crime and here comes white pestilence. We get served with condemnation – not just the individual, but the whole race. That one instance is a testament to white people to stay away from anyone who looks like that criminal. Black people are -once again – seen and treated as unwanted foster children to avoid or abuse.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 08:43:33 abagond

@ V-4

1. This idea that blacks whine and complain to get handouts from whites instead of getting on with their life and doing the best they can, that is a white stereotype, one that is profoundly paternalistic AND insulting. I do not know any black person like that. No black commenter here seems to be like that either.

What is commonly demanded of whites is not “help” but acting like decent human beings – an end to racism. In my opinion that will require reparations at some point, but more for moral reasons (paying back a debt) than material ones (“helping” blacks). Paying back what you owe someone is not “paternalistic”. It is “not being a scumbag.”

2. White Americans worked to clear most of the land of Native Americans and took it. The fact that disease helped them in their cause does not turn it into some kind of “accident”. The Trail of Tears was not an “accident”. The destruction of the Sioux was not an “accident”. Sending the Cheyenne and Comanches to Oklahoma was not an “accident”. Breaking the treaties was not an “accident”. Running the remaining Indian lands for the benefit of white mining companies is not an “accident”. Etc.

3. If D.R. Congo and Vietnam are on the mend, that does not somehow undo the motives of the white powers that “helped” them. Both Belgium and America framed their interventions as “help”. Both hideously screwed them up. Both disregarded the popular will in those countries.

4. Japan did Westernize – but for the most part it did it on ITS own terms. It pretty much took what it wanted and threw out the rest. There was the American occupation, but that did not last long and did not seem to screw them up too much. Non-whites adopting what they want from the West is a far, far cry from having Westernization thrust upon them and their cultures destroyed.

5. If Josephine Baker did it out of white paternalism, then she is just as bad. From what I understand she adopted children of every race – white Europeans too – and wanted to fight racism.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 09:31:12 abagond

@ southerngirl

I just deleted a comment of yours. Please remain on topic.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 09:41:53 southerngirl

Ewps, sorry lol. I was talking about my daddy who’s white and raycist, isn’t that what white paternalism is all about?

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 10:10:55 Omnipresent

LMAO

southerngirl writes like some of the people I have heard speaking on Jerry Springer – Black people are lucky that her dad is a bigot and warning her against them. I really did not think people like this truly existed.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 10:30:14 Dauphine

“Rick Violette

Chile is a white country, 70% of chilean are European descendants, get your facts straight and stop spreading lies about South American countries”

Aah, another country where the indigenous people were segregated, wipe out , and assimilated with force….lovely….

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 11:55:30 satanforce

Don’t get stuck with old images of white paternalism. The new faces are far, far , more radical and messianic.

In the book the authors happily take up the white geek’s burden. A liberal sprinkling of convenient, hypothetical dark-skinned worthies appear: Congolese fisherwomen, graphic designers in Botswana, anticorruption activists in San Salvador and illiterate Masai cattle herders in the Serengeti are all obediently summoned to demonstrate the progressive properties of Google phones jacked into the informational supply chain of the Western empire.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/opinion/sunday/the-banality-of-googles-dont-be-evil.html?_r=0&pagewanted=all

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 13:21:34 Randy

Abagond:

Your comments positively OOZE white paternalism.

Sorry, but I don’t think I qualify.

There seem to be several required components to “white paternalism” which are missing, particularly:

1. Those offering comments are necessarily white. In Robert Lindsay’s case, the validity of his opinions is based on his believed genetic privilege. In the case of the standard “guilty white liberal” (GWL), validity stems from believed social and economic privilege.

I offer comments based on logic and reason, which anyone is free to dispute. I attempt to derive no authority based on race.

2. Comments are necessarily oriented towards non-white people and are disempowering in nature. Paternalists regard non-whites as inferior, and so offer race-specific advice which explicitly or implicitly implies an upper limit to their capabilities.

I’ve expressed opinions that all people and communities can be successful, and the process to get there is basically the same for everyone.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 13:41:25 Kwamla

Whiteness’ First Contact with AFRICANS might have went something like this:

“We are the Borg. Lower your defenses and surrender your men, women and children to us. We will add your cultural and biological distinctiveness to our own and attempt to completely annihilate your ancestral history! WE will ASSIMILATE you into OUR collective! Your people will adapt to SERVICE US. Resistance is futile!”

I have to admit Matari this one just cracked me up LOL!!!

Tell me how boundless must be your imagination to come up with such witty analogies as these?

Oh…and by the way the Voyager series of Star Trek had the best in depth and intricately thought out storylines as your insightful originality here successfully illustrates.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 13:52:10 Kwamla

abagond

@ Diary:

“What most whites will never admit is how dependent they really are on us. They cannot survive without pillage and theft but, due to their deep mental sickness and arrogance, they cannot accept this fact as truth so they flip the script to make themselves out to be the parental figure for all of man. When they screw up, they turn around and blame the victims for their own oppression! If we were not around, they would swallow each other alive.”

Excellent summary.

There actually is some evidence for this depending on where you look….

“…To put not too fine a point on it, the dark-skinned African peoples are what’s keeping you alive here. Their origin is so rooted in extraterrestrial cultures that the ability for civilisation to exist at all on the surface is directly related to them. The other races who started out their cultures on the surface such as the Pleiadians and the Polynesians (the Polynesians are the root race of the white race) would not be able to maintain the planet’s energy and keep you here intact…” – The African Race and its Sirius/Orion Heritage…P59

See: The Explorer Race Series

http://explorerrace.com/3-origins-next-50-years.php

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 14:10:40 Kwamla

Here it is the link on Google books

http://tinyurl.com/l95e3ko

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 15:30:37 Matari

Kwamla

excerpt from: http://explorerrace.com/3-origins-next-50-years.php

“Someday there will be a being who will be known as a universal being. It will be made up of Earth people, of Saturn people, of Pleiadians, Orions, Sirians and planet names you’ve never even heard of on the other side of this universe. This is not to say that individual groups will not keep their identities, but the ultimate purpose, specifically on Earth, of having so many different races and nationalities and even subgroups within them, is that you all draw on each other’s strengths and bring out the best in each other.”

*********

“…all draw on each other’s strengths and bring out the best in each other.”

Kwamla, how do you imagine this might occur? Will it be some sort of sudden massive universal paradigm shift – in your opinion? Will humans here unite under one banner to fight against an extraterrestrial threat?

Or will this happen by means of some other sort of magic? I say magic (or THE miraculous) to emphasize that this planet is on the verge of another catastrophic world/race/religious/economic/ethnic/resource WAR to the extent that the idea bringing out the BEST in each other seems ridiculous AND utterly impossible.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 15:51:18 Linda

“Rick Violette
Chile is a white country, 70% of chilean are European descendants, get your facts straight and stop spreading lies about South American countries”

Linda says,

I love when people pass off “half truth” as whole truth

70% of Chile is PART European — they are mestizos — mixed with Indigenous and like almost every South American country, the Chileans like to call themselves “White” regardless of their 50/50 or 70/30 genetic makeup.

“A public health book from the University of Chile states that 30% of the population is of Caucasian origin; Mestizos with an average 60% Caucasian ancestry and 40% Native American ancestry are estimated to amount a total of 65%, while Native Americans (Amerindians) comprise the remaining 5%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chile

When did biased statistics become accepted as accurate, such as the CIA factbook comparing “Indigenous non-mixed Amerindians to Everyone else” and so now we have ignorant people repeating this one comparison as the gospel.

“Some publications, such as the CIA World Factbook, state that the entire population consist of a combined 95.4% of “Whites and White-Amerindians”, and 4.6% of Amerindians. These figures are based on a national census held in 2002, which classified the population as indigenous and non-indigenous, rather than as White or Mestizo”

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 15:59:01 Riverside_Rob

Abagond, Thanks for the priceless moniker.
Kiwi – what does the $ we owe to China and Japan have to do with the fact that white America rebuilt Japan and Korea following devastating wars, without trying to make them “be like us”.
Brothawolf – you don’t know white paternalism, and I certainly don’t practice it. I don’t try to take care of blacks, teach blacks, cut blacks slack because they’re black – those are what White liberals do. I think blacks can take care of themselves – they do in many parts of the world to varying degrees of success – just like other races. Where you go off the rails is when you say “white people love to tell blacks how to act” That is called law abiding – all of us are asked to obey the laws of our society – if you can’t then you’re an outlaw and should expect some type of consequence.

Lastly – who is that keeps saying “whites need blacks more than blacks need whites”? What are you talking about specifically? I can’t think of one good or service that I get from a black person that I can’t get from a white (or asian or latino) person. Same is true the other way – I ‘ve had black dentists and doctors, car mechanics and electricians work for me. I could easily replace them all with chinese immigrants – what is so special about your blackness that anyone would need it? I don’t think my whiteness is anything special to you.
This is a wonderful site to come to and hear opinions that I normally don’t in my day to day experiences, but some of the voices here are trapped in an echo chamber and need to let in a little fresh air once in an while.

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 16:21:50 Kwamla

Thats an interesting question Matari…

To be clear this is no such thing as an “Extraterrestrial threat” that would never be allowed to happen by the majority of positive ET groups with a vested interest in our survival.

One of the things these series of books does state is that ultimately the Explorer Race who will go out into the solar system and explore and meet other beings on new worlds will be “female” and “people of colour” .

I’d have to honestly say I don’t exactly know how this “paradigm shift”, as you correctly put it, will occur. But I do have a sense of what has already and is continuing to take place now in 2013…

“…Earth energies will shift from male dominance to female dominance

The energies of the Earth will be changing from male to female on December 22, 2012, according to Melchizedek, and women will have a much easier time accessing the 4th dimension. “The male aspect is coming to an end this year and the female begins. What the prophecy is, is the females remember who they are, they remember how to go into their heart. From a female way, it’s really easy. It’s difficult from a male way. It will be women who come out and remember this stuff and will enlighten the world. It’s not going to come from us guys…”

http://wordpress.kwamla.com/?p=567#comment-139

Its this male, white dominant paternalism which needs to, but will eventually, die away…

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 18:46:10 Mbeti

As usual a lot of comments on the same old topic – white people mean and bad,black people innocent and basically good –
I’m beyond tired of this rant….

And for the why are you here then, questioners – cause even though there are apparently a lot of mean people doing mean things ,there are a lot of nice people doing good things.

Or
I got sucked into blogs angry at spite people and even though I’m black and sometimes very angry at white people, they are not the only thing to be angry at and I’ve learned a long while ago – you can’t be angry all the time.

It would be nice if “we” could talk about something else for a change.

And I began to wonder about the self fulling prophesy effect – if you continually focus on something ……..

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 21:55:24 Herneith

He moved us to Canada to ge away from ya’ll but theirs still black boys here lol one in my class is even kinda cute does he really have aids?

Folks, this ‘person’ is an excellent example as to why incest is taboo. Why do you clowns always move to Canada, by the way?

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 22:37:31 Mbeti

Instead of mentally ill in a simplistic sense “southerngirl” might be a pyschopathic type that either enjoys baiting people or….

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on Tue Jun 4th 2013 at 23:45:26 mary burrell

@southerngirl; I think you are just so sad and pathetic. Troll better dear. I can’t get angry. It’s just so sad I can’t waste my energy.

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 02:39:32 gro jo

I would recommend this book to all who are under the impression that blacks made no technical contributions to the development of the USA. http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/04/22/reviews/010422.22faustt.html

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 02:54:06 gro jo

Mugabe is depicted as a mass murderer, but when you place his regime’s crimes to those of Churchill’s Mugabe comes of like a choir boy. During world war 2 that great defender of democracy’s policy toward India led to 3 million deaths from starvation. http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,2031992,00.html

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 03:38:35 Riverside_rob

Kiwi – what are you smoking? Japan was in ashes in 1945 (end of WWII), same with south Korea in 1952 (Armistice stopped the fighting). How does a county rebuild itself without outside help, support and protection? Hell Douglas MacArthur was practically the Caesar of Japan and wrote their constitution (that they still use). By your name, I assume you live in New Zealand, and if that is true how can you be so oblivious to the recent history of your region? why don’t you tell me what “they” did for “me” – or is that a conversational trick you picked up for when you don’t know what you’re talking about?

Americans did barely anything for other countries? – if that were so – you my boy, would be writing this in Japanese. The United States protected New Zealand and Australia from Japan in 1942. the ANZAC troops did their share, don’t get me wrong – but a lot of their forces were already engaged in the African theatre fighting the Germans as part of the British Commonwealth forces. Following WWII, we (AMERICANS) rebuilt a ruined Europe – that included our foe Germany – that is until the communists (Russians occupied the eastern half of Germany) shut off the East from the West. We stayed in Europe for 50 years, ensuring the peace that allowed Europe to grow and prosper and eventually turn into a socialist utopia that is now teetering on the brink of insolvency – as is the way of worldwide socialism.

So – what I’m saying Kiwi is this – stick the racial debates and discussions of your hurt feelings – I’ll listen to that for a while, but when you wade into the deeper intellectual water of real history and who did what to whom, you’re out gunned.

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 09:36:14 abagond

@ Riverside Rob

White American wealth is based in part on:

– Dead Indian Land
– Black slave labour (= unpaid reparations)
– cheap black and Latino labour at home
– cheap Asian and Latin American labour abroad
– Asian brain drain
– huge debts to Japan and China
– fossil fuels

This is not sustainable. Look for a long-term decline of White America once China or India gets powerful enough abroad and white voters can no longer maintain racial inequality at home.

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 18:53:34 Linda

“Riverside_rob,
Following WWII, we (AMERICANS) rebuilt a ruined Europe – that included our foe Germany – that is until the communists (Russians occupied the eastern half of Germany) shut off the East from the West.”

Linda says,

Rob, the Russians were already there…you do realize that Russia and America were allies in WW2 and that the Germany was divided into 4 zones — as agreed by the French, British, Americans, and Russians — who occupied Germany.

It was Russia who entered Berlin and subsequently ended the war. Germany was split and occupied along the lines based on how far into Germany the allied troops made it… Russia was able to take most of Europe because their troops marched from Russia to the middle of Germany.

“A plan for the joint occupation of Berlin had first been proposed by the British in January 1944 and the details had been slowly worked out at later meetings. At the Potsdam conference in July 1945, the three Allies confirmed that the zones would be occupied by Soviet Union (with eight districts), the United States (with six districts), Great Britain (with four districts), and France (with two districts).”

http://www.pbs.org/behindcloseddoors/in-depth/prelude-coldwar.html#Germany

So, this agreement was made immediately at the end of the war by all 4 countries…communism was NOT the reason Germany was divided.

The Russians and Communism did not Shut down the rebuilding of Europe

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 19:20:37 sam

@riverside-rob:

“We stayed in Europe for 50 years, ensuring the peace that allowed Europe to grow and prosper and eventually turn into a socialist utopia that is now teetering on the brink of insolvency – as is the way of worldwide socialism.”

You are either a) ignorant b) troll or c) really ignorant.

Socialism and communism was finished 20 years ago, sorry to tell you like this, I know it was a good enemy for a red neck righwiner like you. But really, it was over more than 20 years ago.

Europe is now in financial trouble because it followed the American model, freeing the ecomony, selling away state owned companies, privatising and allowing the banking sector run amok, just like they did in USA. And the same guys who raped your economy in 2008 are now doing it for ours, with the same plan and same actors.

Lucky for us Europe is not as a whole in as bad shape as USA which is litterally few days away from the total collapse. Just recently it was only four days away, untill US was able to get money from somewhere. The US government is in that deep hole, in much worse and fragilke condition than countries like Mexico and Brazli or Argentina etc. Thanks to those free market profets and freedmanism plus randism.

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on Wed Jun 5th 2013 at 22:21:44 resw77

@Randy

“I’ve expressed opinions that all people and communities can be successful, and the process to get there is basically the same for everyone.”

Should others take the divide, conquer and loot route of the Europeans?

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 01:49:17 V-4

@Abagond

1. This idea that blacks whine and complain to get handouts from whites instead of getting on with their life and doing the best they can, that is a white stereotype, one that is profoundly paternalistic AND insulting. I do not know any black person like that. No black commenter here seems to be like that either.
What is commonly demanded of whites is not “help” but acting like decent human beings – an end to racism. In my opinion that will require reparations at some point, but more for moral reasons (paying back a debt) than material ones (“helping” blacks). Paying back what you owe someone is not “paternalistic”. It is “not being a scumbag.”

And where did I say that blacks whine and complain for handouts Abagond?
Why do white people of today owe black people of today anything? How far does this go, does it only apply to people who are full black? What about people who have only been “white” for a generation or two? What about every PoC that are having more economically viable lives than they would have back in their home countries? Aren’t they also profiting from the enslavement of black people and the atrocities against the natives?

2. White Americans worked to clear most of the land of Native Americans and took it. The fact that disease helped them in their cause does not turn it into some kind of “accident”. The Trail of Tears was not an “accident”. The destruction of the Sioux was not an “accident”. Sending the Cheyenne and Comanches to Oklahoma was not an “accident”. Breaking the treaties was not an “accident”. Running the remaining Indian lands for the benefit of white mining companies is not an “accident”. Etc.

3. If D.R. Congo and Vietnam are on the mend, that does not somehow undo the motives of the white powers that “helped” them. Both Belgium and America framed their interventions as “help”. Both hideously screwed them up. Both disregarded the popular will in those countries.
Doesn’t that support the White Paternalism side even more? That even with white people active personal corruption, the things they implemented over there still end up puting them on the mend.

4. Japan did Westernize – but for the most part it did it on ITS own terms. It pretty much took what it wanted and threw out the rest. There was the American occupation, but that did not last long and did not seem to screw them up too much. Non-whites adopting what they want from the West is a far, far cry from having Westernization thrust upon them and their cultures destroyed.
5. If Josephine Baker did it out of white paternalism, then she is just as bad. From what I understand she adopted children of every race – white Europeans too – and wanted to fight racism.

Didn’t Bradgelina adopt children of multiple races? Don’t they want to fight racism?

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 01:51:45 V-4

Thats an unclear post….here’s a second one thats somwhat simplier

And where did I say that blacks whine and complain for handouts Abagond?
Why do white people of today owe black people of today anything? How far does this go, does it only apply to people who are full black? What about people who have only been “white” for a generation or two? What about every PoC that are having more economically viable lives than they would have back in their home countries? Aren’t they also profiting from the enslavement of black people and the atrocities against the natives?

3. If D.R. Congo and Vietnam are on the mend, that does not somehow undo the motives of the white powers that “helped” them. Both Belgium and America framed their interventions as “help”. Both hideously screwed them up. Both disregarded the popular will in those countries.

Doesn’t that support the White Paternalism side even more? That even with white people active personal corruption, the things they implemented over there still end up puting them on the mend.

4. Japan did Westernize – but for the most part it did it on ITS own terms. It pretty much took what it wanted and threw out the rest. There was the American occupation, but that did not last long and did not seem to screw them up too much. Non-whites adopting what they want from the West is a far, far cry from having Westernization thrust upon them and their cultures destroyed.
5. If Josephine Baker did it out of white paternalism, then she is just as bad. From what I understand she adopted children of every race – white Europeans too – and wanted to fight racism.

Didn’t Bradgelina adopt children of multiple races? Don’t they want to fight racism?

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 05:26:27 abagond

@ V-4

1. True, you did not say anything about whining and handouts, the full-flown stereotype, but you did say the following and I was trying to address the more general point:

“For instance; don’t most people here think its the white man’s burden to help out all the non-white races and that they can’t fix themselves on their own?”

That is white paternalist framing. I do not see many black people here talking that way.

2. Angelina Jolie needs a post of her own, big time. But to answer your point, unlike Baker she did not adopt any white children, which does tip her hand as a white paternalist.

3. Reparations: no matter how you do it there will be some unfairness to it, the thing is a mess, but not doing anything is vastly more unfair.

Whites morally owe blacks backpay for hundreds of years of slavery. Think of it as an unpaid debt. By law they do not have to pay, of course. Slavery was the law of the land till the South no longer had enough voters to keep it going. But this huge theft is there, everyone knows about it, and it utterly, completely poisons American race relations, more from the white end than from the black end:

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/why-do-whites-hate-demonize-fear-or-look-down-on-blacks/

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 08:18:50 abagond

@ Legion

Reparations could backfire, true. But as it stands whites are still hung up on slavery, they have not moved past it. They tell blacks to “get over it”, but I bet that on this blog they are almost always the ones to bring it up off topic. And, as I said in the post on moral blindness, the way they talk about it shows that it is one of their demons.

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 08:19:45 abagond

@ Kiwi

Great insight on Jolie. Thanks!

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 15:03:24 solesearch

Reparations: no matter how you do it there will be some unfairness to it, the thing is a mess, but not doing anything is vastly more unfair.

Whites morally owe blacks backpay for hundreds of years of slavery. Think of it as an unpaid debt. By law they do not have to pay, of course. Slavery was the law of the land till the South no longer had enough voters to keep it going. But this huge theft is there, everyone knows about it, and it utterly, completely poisons American race relations, more from the white end than from the black end:

There is no sum the American government could give to repay African-Americans for slavery. There isn’t enough money in the world to pay for the suffering of enslaved Africans.

The only adequate thing the government can do is stop being racists today. They owe us freedom and equality, anything less is a slap in the face. They didn’t steal money from us they stole our lives. Reparations would just continue the practice of buying people. If I got paid for the enslavement of my ancestors, I’d feel like a sellout, like I’m being paid off to keep quiet.

Reparations could backfire, true. But as it stands whites are still hung up on slavery, they have not moved past it. They tell blacks to “get over it”, but I bet that on this blog they are almost always the ones to bring it up off topic. And, as I said in the post on moral blindness, the way they talk about it shows that it is one of their demons.

The main benefit of reparations would be to white people, assuaging whatever guilt they have.

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 15:24:02 jefe

@Legion

Much better than reparations would be teaching in schools the real history of Europe and the bloody violence she brought to the New World.

Agree 100%.
Actually, agree 10000%

I was just about to type a response to Abagond, but I see yours here already. I was going to say that the way to handle it would be to teach a more accurate depiction of history, stop whitewashing the past by pretending like it didn’t happen or is no longer important.

I agree that reparations will not be possible now. The only to do it would be to grant it to actual former slaves. But that is no longer possible.

I am angry about the history that was taught to me. I am angry that most Americans (and most people living in the “New World”) are quite ignorant of their history, both whites and non-whites. And that is why I come to this blog — to examine and discuss what actually happened and what is happening now — not that Abagond is always 100% right.

When will everyone else wake up and be upset over the history that was taught to them!

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 15:25:25 jefe

@solesearch

The main benefit of reparations would be to white people, assuaging whatever guilt they have.”

Yep

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 22:06:26 Riverside_Rob

With the different histories we’ve learned here in America, would any of the black people present be in favor of racial segregation again? Clearly you’re not happy with white America’s handling of our common history – you don’t seem to be in favor of accepting apologies or cash rewards and affirmative action isn’t enough to counteract the devastation of slavery. What is it that would make you whole? Do you know?

It seems I hijacked the thread for a spell there, I just want to address those of you who responded to my earlier post.

Kiwi – you must be a child to think sweatshops build a nation – good luck with that *eyeroll*. I’m off to drink beer and party with my new EBT card that you paid for – thanks!

Linda – Russians in Europe, first to Berlin – right on the money – Berlin entirely in the Eastern zone – Berlin Airlift sustained the western portion of the divide city in 1948 – 1949 when the soviets blockaded the only land route to the city. Is that paternalistic enough for you? The Airlift was American and British in nature – funded primarily by the United States – White America at the time. My point was that American money rebuilt western Europe – is that white paternalism or just paternalism, in your opinion and is it wrong?

Sam – Free Trade ruined Europe by getting rid of state owned businesses. Do you even understand that state owned business is the epitome of a money losing enterprise because it has no incentive to succeed. You can call me ignorant or troll if you like, but statements that socialism and communism are gone for 20 years proves where the real ignorance lies – see Obamacare and the American nanny-state.
Legion – well written response, clearly you’re educated, perhaps even an educator. You even sited your sources, bravo. Here’s what you wrote

“ Japan was not rebuilt by “white America” it was rebuilt by U.S. military and political leadership. This nonsense about implying a benevolent America because Japan went on to become a thriving nation is just that, nonsense!”

You have a little logical problem there. What I call White America you call the U.S. Military and political leadership – who were in fact all White at the time. You prove my argument. All the rest of your response, while accurate, is also irrelevant. I did not suggest our re-building of Japan was simply out of the goodness of our little white hearts. While it did benefit the Japanese (and Koreans later) to a great extent, there were other motives to be sure, and resistance to those efforts that you mentioned.

And lastly, Abagond – you list the support for the wealth of the American Empire and I don’t disagree with your list, but the response of history is “so what?” What was the wealth of the Babylonia, Egyptian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Turkish, Mongol, Chinese, Spanish, English, French empires? Same stuff right? I do agree with you when you say

“This is not sustainable. Look for a long-term decline of White America once China or India gets powerful enough abroad and white voters can no longer maintain racial inequality at home.”

Except that I think we’re already there – white America is in decline. China and India are on the rise and they will pick over the bones of our once dominant culture, the way the U.S. rose on the bones of the Spanish and English empires –that is the way of history. White voters can’t maintain racial inequality at home anymore – not since 2008 when we elected president Obama. White America (conservative whites) will recede into enclaves, leaving larger cities to the liberals and the previous minority races. What those places will look like is a guess at this time, but my money is on the Detroit model, see also St. Louis, Cleveland, Atlanta, Philadelphia, D.C. and Oakland. What you should be concerned with is when our new Chinese overlords are in power – how are they going to treat the American Black community? Will there be new Yellow Paternalism for you disdain, or will there be mass executions as is the usual Chinese way of conflict resolution. I hope I’m not alive to see the answer.

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on Thu Jun 6th 2013 at 22:33:43 gro jo

V-4 , please state the things that “they implemented” that you mention in the following quote.

“Doesn’t that support the White Paternalism side even more? That even with white people active personal corruption, the things they implemented over there still end up puting them on the mend.”

If Vietnam managed to get back on its feet economically it did so in defiance of U.S. policy. After the war ended U.S. government policy was to refuse to extend aid to unified Vietnam. Based on your comment you seem to have information that I’m not privy to, please enlighten me.

Legion, you said

” Reparations would create such renewed racial animosity in America, I can’t even picture it, but fuking baaaad!”

How do you know that? How much racial animosity did the Americans of Japanese extraction draw when they were paid reparations for what they suffered during world war 2? “Why should black Americans get reparations?” For centuries of stolen labor, broken promises i.e. 40 acres and a mule, etc. “Reparations would probably create increased racial difficulty in the diaspora too, I hope you guys NEVER get it!” You are entitled to your opinion, but tell me, if your kid got run over by a drunk driver who is white and the kid survived the encounter would you hesitate to sue said driver out of fear of creating increased racial difficulty?

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 01:31:34 Solesearch

With the different histories we’ve learned here in America, would any of the black people present be in favor of racial segregation again? Clearly you’re not happy with white America’s handling of our common history – you don’t seem to be in favor of accepting apologies or cash rewards and affirmative action isn’t enough to counteract the devastation of slavery. What is it that would make you whole? Do you know?

Not government mandated segregation. Segregation still exists. It breeds inequality so no I don’t think we need more of it. Plus I’m in an interracial marriage so…

What do we want? The same thing we’ve always wanted equality. If we could get equality in the justice system it would go a long way towards fixing economic inequality and educational inequality.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 01:47:04 Linda

“Riverside_Rob,
Following WWII, we (AMERICANS) rebuilt a ruined Europe – that included our foe Germany – that is until the communists (Russians occupied the eastern half of Germany) shut off the East from the West.

My point was that American money rebuilt western Europe – is that white paternalism or just paternalism, in your opinion and is it wrong?”

Linda says,

Rob, I could care less about what you think is or is not paternalistic…I believe in giving credit when and where it’s due — I know that concept is probably alien to you since “white is right” in race realist world…

and As a foreigner, I’m glad I was able to provide and educate you with a link to your own country’s history.

You’re trying to make it seem as though America was in this “all Alone” and that the Russians came in late After the war and ruined everything for everybody….you were not being factually correct.

after 1945, each occupying Power (US, UK, France, Russia) determined the policies in their OWN German zones, as was agreed by all; and none of these countries cared what the other was doing because they had NO INTENTION to rebuild Germany.

the game changed since all 4 occupying countries (US, UK, France, Russia)stripped Germany of everything that wasn’t nailed down and (during and after the war) STOLE Germany’s intellectual and technological information. (you Americans should be grateful, this is how America became a super Power)

Russia caught up to American technologically in record speed and the cold war began (1947)… this is the reason the Americans, UK, and Europeans changed their minds about rebuilding Germany and agreed to implement the Marshall Plan.

the Russians did not stop European/Germany rebuilding (as you stated)… they kicked started into high gear and the rebuilding of Germany/Europe was not done out of the goodness of the America’s heart…

it was done out of fear. Russia forced the 3 remaining allies (US, UK, France) to turn their German occupied zones into Buffer zones in preparation for a war with Russia — they needed the Germans to be in the middle.

America financed the largest portion of the Marshall financial plan but America did NOT finance Europe’s recovery all by itself — Europe still had colonies in Africa and Asia, which they continued to rape after WW2 and as they were leaving these territories.

so no, I wouldn’t mistake your ignorance for paternalism.

If you’re going to be a smart-a’s, then at least get the history correct the first time, babes.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 01:54:30 Randy

Solesearch (responding to Riverside_Rob):

What do we want? The same thing we’ve always wanted equality.

The most significant challenge for that goal is determining how to measure “equality”. Equality of outcome (or its lack) does not imply equality of opportunity (or its lack).

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 02:19:42 Matari

“The most significant challenge for that goal is determining how to measure “equality”. Equality of outcome (or its lack) does not imply equality of opportunity (or its lack).”

*********

This is just Randy’s feeling the need for some *attention.* FROM us … lol

Because even he knows that equality MEANS a level playing field where the rules are the same for all involved – aka no skin color privileges.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 04:32:16 Solesearch

Randy, we measure opportunity and use unequal outcomes as an indicator that something wrong is happening.

I don’t know if that’s challenging since numerous studies do just that.

The challenge seems to be getting the nation to care enough to do something about it.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 04:41:20 Solesearch

Legion, thanks!

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 04:46:19 Riverside_rob

Linda – thanks for the response, I do appreciate your time, although you haven’t educated me beyond telling me how you feel. The topic of the thread is paternalism, that’s why I brought it up. Whether the U.S. paid the whole bill or just the first round of Europe’s reconstruction isn’t the point – the point was if you thought that was paternalistic in your opinion. If it is, and I think it was, it should show a pattern of American paternalistic behavior in general. To point at it with contempt in the context of race relations is disingenuous – and that is what the whole thread was about. I think American paternalism played a positive role in post war Europe and continues to make positive contributions to the world today.

Now I’d like to continue discussing the political scene in Europe, post WWII. Here’s what I know.

When the two Germany’s were reunited in the 1990’s, the former East Germany was an economic basket case – West Germany paid the check and move on, now Germany is Europe’s economic engine – good for the Germans. Why was the east in such bad shape – the soviets. The soviets were not good stewards of Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia or the Baltic states – see when the ware ended, the soviets occupied those countries and used them as buffers against the west – they didn’t have a Marshall plan. Russia didn’t stop the U.S. from rebuilding (helping to rebuild – I bet you like that better) western Europe – they likely inspired it, but they did retard rebuilding in those countries they held dominion over. So really you and I do agree on this -as you said, you just don’t appreciate the American motives. Fact is, American money provided for the beginnings of Europe’s resurrection, and American military protection kept them safe from Soviet invasion until the soviet union dissolved.

You can see the same thing when you look over the DMZ in Korea, the north is an economic mess, as was Cuba, until recently. Anywhere you saw soviet occupation, you saw economic misery – where the western allies held sway, you saw economic self sufficiency at least, and economic success in many cases we’ve already discussed.

The American plans for western Europe, and the treasure we poured into it, were not out of the goodness of our little American hearts – I never implied that, nor do I believe that. There were and are good reasons to help nations rebuild and prosper – rather like the reasons why Henry Ford paid his workers well enough to afford the products he sold. Get it?

Now for your history lesson Linda; – I don’t understand what a foreigner is on the internet, but I think you’re telling me you’re not an American, and that’s cool – we learned different things and have been indoctrinated differently too. Follow me on this – In 1945 the United States was the first and only superpower by nature of our sole possession of nuclear arms. America didn’t steal that from Germany. German scientist escaped to the U.S. if they could – if they could escape from the Soviets, who wanted them too. The most well known was Werner von Braun who was instrumental in the U.S. space program – he built upon the American Robert Goddard’s pioneering work in rocketry prior to the war.

The Russians gained atomic weapons in record time, thanks to the Rosenbergs and their other espionage programs. I think they would have achieved it anyway – Russians are brilliant physicists and mathematicians, and they had the Poles working with them too, but the spying and secret stealing definitely accelerated their progress.

As for Europeans raping their colonies post war – that is something you could teach me about, I’m not well read on the subject. We probably don’t agree on much politically, but I do appreciate the back and forth with you.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 08:18:58 sam

@riverside-rob:

“Sam – Free Trade ruined Europe by getting rid of state owned businesses. Do you even understand that state owned business is the epitome of a money losing enterprise because it has no incentive to succeed. You can call me ignorant or troll if you like, but statements that socialism and communism are gone for 20 years proves where the real ignorance lies – see Obamacare and the American nanny-state.”

You are really funny guy. There is no Free Trade in US. Bush government have taxpayers money 770 billion dollars to the big banks, basicall stole your money and ruined your economy. They did the same with Irak war which was big business for Haliburton and not by a chance, mind you.

Universal health care is hell of good way to boost national economy. It means that work force is more healthy and there is no need for companies to provide costly private health care. Naturally this hurts those who make money out of illness and sickness and insurance companies, but as whole, considering the whole national economics, the healthier the people are, the more they work and benefit even the private sector. But I think that is too complicated for a right wingers like you.

If you call “Obamacare” socialism, it just shows that you have no idea what socialism is. If you call USA a nanny-state, you just show how ignorant you are. I recommend serious study of politics and history.

“America didn’t steal that from Germany. German scientist escaped to the U.S. if they could – if they could escape from the Soviets, who wanted them too. The most well known was Werner von Braun who was instrumental in the U.S. space program”

US did not steal nuclear bomb from nazis, that is true, but they captured nazi scientists right after the war, von Braun being one of them. Those guys did not escape from anywhere, they were hijacked by western commando units in order to avoid the russian capturing them. Again, read history.

“The Russians gained atomic weapons in record time, thanks to the Rosenbergs and their other espionage programs.”

Not true. I have no idea how much of an spies that sorry a** couple was, I doubt the whole thing (I think they were pretty poor amateurs who were just killed off as an examples to warn others) but I do know that the soviets got the nuclear studies and plans from the nazis who were year or two away from building their own bomb. So the americans had practically zero impact on russian nuclear armament, despite how much americans love to promote their own impact on that.Russians did not need americans to do that. They did it on their own.

Naturally they spied USA as much as USA spied on them but it is typical american hype that couple of american amateur spies gave the goods to the enemy without whom they would have not been able to build the bomb. This is the same paternalistic attitude which presents itself in various other ways from time to time. Recent expression of the same: US military personel teatching the afgans how to fight a guerilla war. Your average US professional soldier has perhaps few months of actual combart experience under his belt when an average afgan under thirty has lived all his life at war. And despite of that, the americans think they know more about the war in Afganistan than the people who live in there.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 08:32:04 sam

@riverside-rob:

As for the state owned companies, they have incentive to provide a service to the whole nation with most ccost efficient way, cheapest as it has been shown after the selling of them to the private sector.

In every case known to man, from USA to Finland to Greece to UK to basically anywhere, every time a state owned company had been privatised the service has been ruined, the cost for the state has been inflated and the prices have gone up. You will not find a single example where a privatised company has been able to provide the same service cheaper and better for the people or the state.

Just look at Brittish Railways. Maggie prvatised that because it was costing 2 billion a year for the state. It was the best railway company in the world. It services were excellent, delays and such were almost unheard of, almost zero accidents etc. Look at the Uk railways now: big accidents. rottening net work, lowsy service, delays common, prices several times higher, and the state has to support these private companies with 20 billion a year just to keep them a float.

Look at the waste management in New York. When the city and federal authorities were able to drive out the mafia waste companies, big national service provider moved in. The result; even worse service for higher costs, more complains, more criminal cases etc.

I have no understanding why state should hand out money for private companies but they do. In USA state gave 770 000 000 000 dollars just for the banks. It has given and is giving billions for others. If this is the case, as it always seems to be, then why not let the state own those companies? That way the money would come back to the state.

Big private companies are always asking state to hand out money, lower their taxes and other whinings and that money goes to the pockets of private individuals. If a big company is owned by the state the money stays in its books all the way, It belongs to all of us, the taxpayers. It can also keep people at work since it does not have to make profit that much and more people are at work, more they use private services, buy stuff etc. Plus, the government gets part of it money back from the salaries via income tax.

Whats wrong with that? Cheaper, more cost effective way to provide certain services. Working people with money to spend on private services, movies, food, housing etc. Nothing wrong with that, except for ideological reasons.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 08:35:54 abagond

@ Kiwi

Excellent point! These other dominations are always presented as threatening, as ones that will screw up everything, make it worse, ESPECIALLY for black people! But white domination, not hypothetical at all, is not presented or seen that way by whites EVEN in regard to blacks. It is seen as benign and well-meaning, as paternalistic, even in slave times! it is a piece of their moral blindness.

I feel a parody “black paternalism” post coming on…

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 11:33:33 Randy

Matari:

Because even he knows that equality MEANS a level playing field where the rules are the same for all involved – aka no skin color privileges.

Solesearch:

Randy, we measure opportunity and use unequal outcomes as an indicator that something wrong is happening.

I still have not yet heard how you would measure “opportunity”. If you’re unable to accurately measure it, then how do you know if you’ve succeeded in obtaining it?

Unequal outcomes are insufficient for the task, as people have unequal abilities and different values and goals.

You can find significantly unequal outcomes in cultures that are very racially and ethnically homogeneous.

Also, I’ve not yet heard how to distinguish between “earned” privilege from “unearned” privilege.

For example, if I read to my kids for an hour a day while my neighbor drinks beer and watches TV, and then my kids outperform his at school, was there a difference in “opportunity”?

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 12:47:52 Solesearch

Randy, as I said before, we have already mastered measuring opportunity. It isn’t anything new or difficult. Even little kids do it on the regular.

An example:
http://www.care2.com/causes/minority-students-receive-harsher-punishments-at-school.html

Either way, disparate outcomes should act as a trigger to measure equality of opportunity.

Using the example I provided above:

Unequal Outcome: “more than 28 percent of African-American middle school boys had been suspended at least once, compared with 10 percent of white males nationwide. For girls, it was 18 percent of black students, compared with 4 percent of white students.”

Unequal Opportunity: “ “For possessing or using a cellphone at school, almost 33 percent of first-time black middle school offenders were suspended, compared with 14.5 percent of white students.”

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 13:46:56 Randy

Solesearch:

Randy, as I said before, we have already mastered measuring opportunity. It isn’t anything new or difficult. Even little kids do it on the regular.

Mastered it? You’ve only included one example, and it has flaws which I’ll describe below, and in doing so demonstrate the difficulty of the problem.

Solesearch:

Unequal Outcome: “more than 28 percent of African-American middle school boys had been suspended at least once, compared with 10 percent of white males nationwide. For girls, it was 18 percent of black students, compared with 4 percent of white students.”

This outcome description does not imply a cause, which is obviously critical when considering “opportunity”.

Solesearch:

Unequal Opportunity: “ “For possessing or using a cellphone at school, almost 33 percent of first-time black middle school offenders were suspended, compared with 14.5 percent of white students.”

Two problems:

1. Factors other than race.

– There is no indication that these differences in punishment occurred at the same schools.

– There is no discussion on whether the suspended children may have had prior disciplinary histories which merited a more strict punishment for cell phone usage.

2. There is no evidence provided to support the implied connection that stricter punishment for cell phone usage significantly impacted total suspension rates. Cell phone infractions might be a small percentage of suspension causes.

Now I ask again if you see how difficult it is to measure “opportunity”.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 14:30:20 Matari

Typical Randy BS:

“Unequal outcomes are insufficient for the task, as people have unequal abilities and different values and goals. ”

************

SMH

http://www.bing.com/search?q=blacks+pay+more+&first=9&FORM=PERE

The glaring truth is OVERWHELMINGLY out there – but the apologists and defenders of white-supremacy ALWAYS refuse to see or acknowledge it. No matter how many times or ways it is told – it’s never blatant racism.

This is how millions of seemingly NICE, polite, well mannered white people – LIKE RANDY – roll! Not to mention THEIR confused “colored” enablers.

It’s never racism, or if it is, then he’ll (they’ll) say – aren’t blacks just as racist, tribal or some other gobbledegook intellectually sounding wordy bullsh!t to EXCUSE, EXPLAIN and JUSTIFY that gigantic elephant in the room – WHITENESS accompanied with ALL of its debilitating EVIL effects!

SPIRIT deficient souls (WHITENESS’ club members) also work under the umbrella of NICENESS and reasonable/logical B/S.

Emphasis on B/S!

Racists (of course this can ONLY be white people!) come in all styles, temperaments, flavors, backgrounds, social class, faiths, etc.

What makes them racist is their BELIEF (conscious or not) in their PRACTICED religion — WHITENESS.

Any racist who’s not genuinely seeking to recover from their SPIRITUAL SICKNESS should ALWAYS be kept at arms length or completely avoided. Well meaning, NICE, give you a meal and the shirt off their back RACISTS can never, EVER, be trusted!

PERIOD.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 14:31:38 solesearch

Randy, the outcome wasn’t meant to imply cause. The discrepancy in the opportunity does that. Did you just skip over this statement:

Either way, disparate outcomes should act as a trigger to measure equality of opportunity.

One example, was enough to show you how you’d use unequal outcomes as a trigger. Anyone with an adequate level of reading comprehension could grasp that or someone who wasn’t being disingenuous.

What does it matter if the discrepancy occurred at different schools? Something still needs to be done if black students nationwide are receiving harsher punishments for the same infractions.

The statement says they are first time offenders.

However, let’s say #1 actually matters and #2 is true. It’s is pretty easy to correct for those things. The issue is only complicated for those who want to complicate it.

Statistical analysis is done every day on a number of issues. There are accepted methods and standards to ensure it’s reliability. It has been considered a reliable tool for all type of policy makers. So if when it comes to measuring racial equality and creating policy to correct racial inequality, it is no longer acceptable that is sign of inequality.

However, you know all of this already.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 14:35:34 Riverside_rob

Kiwi –
You posted
In an earlier thread, the white troll “extinct” was telling you to redirect your attention towards “future Hispanic domination”. Now Riverside_rob is telling you to redirect your attention towards “future Chinese domination”.

I’ll tell you that Hispanic domination is occurring in L.A. now, and the black community is paying the price – being driven from certain neighborhoods by violence in some cases, by an increasing population of Mexican people who do not want to share the streets with blacks. Laugh all you want – it is happening.

Chinese domination is occurring now too – on a larger scale and especially economically. Contrary to your thoughts about sweat shops making China an industrial power – I’ve been there and helped create a production line to build product in China for sale into the Chinese market and the rest of Asia. I’m working with the Chines arm of the company that employs me to create another product for the Chinese market initially, but that product will be allowed to sell directly into the European and South American markets of our products.

Investment, planning and industrial expertise was required to transform the Chinese economy into what it is now – oh and an economic zone along the coast that allowed free trade with other countries – which is something the old communists didn’t want – until it made theme rich. The Chinese reached out to those investors and industrial leaders for guidance and support, then built their country. That many of those leaders were white didn’t bother them, they used what worked and discarded what didn’t. I think they are outstanding capitalists. Did you know that China is investing heavily in Africa now? That’s right, they are building factories and buying mines and other mineral rights to fuel their economy. Africa will see another round of colonization in the next few decades. If the Chinese prove to be as exploitive of the African continent as the White European colonizers were a century ago, what will be your narrative then? Here’s a site if you’re interested. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-06/chinese-county-warns-locals-from-going-to-ghana-to-mine-for-gold.html

Many of those items that you and others on this blog cry out against are what allowed China to become the power it is. Sam, I’m talking to you and your socialist loving sympathies. Remember that Mussolini “made the trains run on time” the Italians loved it, then found out what fascism felt like and they ended up stringing his dead body up in the palazzo.

Kiwi – instead of laughing off the comments about the rise and fall of empires, how about you propose the rise of a new black empire? where would it be, what would be it’s most well known features, how would it survive and grow? what would its legacy be? There are a lot of smart people on this blog to help you out – it would be interesting to watch the ideas develop. Who knows maybe a new nation can be created from the ideas you come up with.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 17:03:56 Randy

solesearch:

Either way, disparate outcomes should act as a trigger to measure equality of opportunity.

I don’t disagree with that statement, however it’s the measuring of “opportunity” which is difficult. This is a “how” problem, not a “why” problem.

solesearch:

What does it matter if the discrepancy occurred at different schools? Something still needs to be done if black students nationwide are receiving harsher punishments for the same infractions.

Not necessarily. To wit:

1. People tend to live in neighborhoods segregated by wealth.

2. Students tend to attend local schools.

3. Schools in poorer areas have lower academic performance and more discipline problems requiring sterner measures such as police in schools, metal detectors, and strict punishment policies.

4. Black Americans on average have less income and wealth than white Americans and so are more likely to attend schools with more discipline infractions and harsher punishments.

5. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that even in a completely race-blind educational system you would see more black students being suspended. This isn’t saying that racism doesn’t exist, but that you haven’t proved it with the provided data.

solesearch:

The statement says they are first time offenders.

No, the article says they were first time cell phone or dress code offenders, not first time overall offenders. This is potentially a big difference.

solesearch:

However, let’s say #1 actually matters and #2 is true. It’s is pretty easy to correct for those things. The issue is only complicated for those who want to complicate it.

There’s no evidence that statistical correction has been done here. We’re being asked to diagnose racism without it. You clearly recognize that the raw data is insufficient to form the implied conclusion, so why hasn’t the author?

At best this is incomplete work, at worst, manipulative.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 18:08:26 Randy

Matari:

It’s never racism, or if it is, then he’ll (they’ll) say – aren’t blacks just as racist, tribal or some other gobbledegook intellectually sounding wordy bullsh!t to EXCUSE, EXPLAIN and JUSTIFY that gigantic elephant in the room – WHITENESS accompanied with ALL of its debilitating EVIL effects!

Let me keep this simple.

The common theme here and elsewhere is analogous to “What’s up with these squirrels, what with their live births, warm bloodedness, and mammary glands.”

My response tends to be: “Those are properties of mammals, not just squirrels. If you care about those properties, then perhaps you need to broaden your viewpoint to understand how, where, and why mammalianism presents.”

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 18:27:10 solesearch

Randy, you aren’t comprehending the point I’m making. You’re avoiding the point.

The point is that a correct statistical analysis can be done or one that meets the standards of statistical analysis that are accepted in when dealing with other issues.

You asked how. That is how. To disprove my point you need to show that reliable statistical analysis can’t be done on racial equality issues.

We can talk about the study itself though but whether it is reliable or not is a separate issue.

3. Schools in poorer areas have lower academic performance and more discipline problems requiring sterner measures such as police in schools, metal detectors, and strict punishment policies.

4. Black Americans on average have less income and wealth than white Americans and so are more likely to attend schools with more discipline infractions and harsher punishments.

5. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that even in a completely race-blind educational system you would see more black students being suspended. This isn’t saying that racism doesn’t exist, but that you haven’t proved it with the provided data.

You have a causation problem. The study disproves your statement. The article explains how suspensions lower academic performance. Black first time offenders are more likely to be suspended over dress code violations and cell phones. The problem at its core is in unequal and cruel punishment. You can’t have law and order when the punishment doesn’t fit the crime and the punishment isn’t distributed equally. Neither cell phones or dress code violations require police, metal detectors, or suspensions.

First time offenders shouldn’t be arrested or suspended for cell phones because some other kids were fighting.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/06/hawaii_hope_probation_program_reduces_crime_drug_use_and_time_in_prison.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+slate-2170589+(Slate+Magazine+-+Green+Room)

The article doesn’t show that it is independent of economics. The study might. Either way, economic inequality disproportionately affect blacks since a greater percentage are poor.

The remedy would be the same, regardless: uniform punishments across the nation.

No, the article says they were first time cell phone or dress code offenders, not first time overall offenders. This is potentially a big difference.

It doesn’t say that. It says “first time offenders”. The fact that you would interpret it that way also shows you are being disingenuous.

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on Fri Jun 7th 2013 at 18:51:53 Matari

@ Randy

*******

_____________________________________

@Kwamla

“It will be women who come out and remember this stuff and will enlighten the world. It’s not going to come from us guys…”

**********

That IS certainly believable …. not at all surprising as I’ve never seen or heard of an Army, Navy, Air force or police force comprised of a majority of brutal female combatants hell bent on killing, maiming and destruction.

The common *MAN* is DUMB (jingoistic) when it comes to doing the bidding of insatiable rich men — warring against OTHERS in their sovereign land for power and wealth.

I pray that these women do their enlightening quickly!

Perhaps they could start with Randy … Nah!
That would be a total waste of precious time.

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on Sat Jun 8th 2013 at 00:20:05 abagond

@ Riverside Rob

If you know that America is just another dirty, ugly empire, then you know that any talk about “helping” Germany or Japan or Vietnam or even Black America is utter B.S. and that any paternalistic spin put on it is just that – spin. You would know that White Americans are not the good guys, far from it. And therefore you will also know that foreign domination of America would hit whites far harder than blacks since blacks are already pretty much under foreign domination – Kiwi’s point. You will also understand that white domination is no more benign for blacks than any other kind, that white paternalism is just spin, a lie whites tell themselves to maintain their moral blindness.

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on Sat Jun 8th 2013 at 04:40:59 V-4

@gro jo

Honestly no clue; it was mentioned earlier that the US was involved in their rebuilding and did a lot of screwing them over, so I was just bouncing off of that.

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on Sat Jun 8th 2013 at 20:23:37 Abbas

@Abagond So, if I’m poor(I was living in an car park until ten years ago) and someone offer to me some paternalistic help, I’ll not accept?

@Saykou: Past is past, there are an problem the governments in North America and Europe are trying to solve.
I’m talking of today not yesterday. Rome hasn’t built in one day? Sure!
So If I’m black, I need attack psychically and verbally any white I met? Only if I want be on jail!!! black progress never comes with racism against whites, revanchist and rancor!!!

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on Mon Jun 10th 2013 at 18:02:33 Riverside_Rob

Abogand
“America is just another dirty, ugly empire,” Quite true, and yet it continues to allow you and others (me included) to say whatever it is we please to denigrate said empire. We’re even allowed to vote and elect government that is antithetical to our founding principles (which we probably don’t agree on) and to aspire for change into something that has been seen to fail everywhere it’s been attempted.

Can you think of another that allowed this much freedom? Can you think of another that provided as much material means to it’s inhabitants that don’t have the means to support themselves? I know you set the ground rules for this blog by declaring beneficial parternalistic behavior as off-limits to the discussion, then you’ve gone ahead and termed all that, either for good or ill, as racist. Ok, your blog, your rules – but to term the American empire as just another dirty, ugly empire is paint with too broad of a brush.

Forign domination will affect whites in this country, should it come to pass. But Kiwis point that you support – that blacks will be less affected is not correct in my opinion. Any foreigner gaining rule of America will likely not continue the paternalistic programs that actually benefit the black communities in this country -wheather you approve of them or not. As the black community as a whole hasn’t availed itself to education and technology to the extent that Jewish, Asian and white cultures have, their percived value would be lower in the eyes of an occupier. Simply having a labor pool of black Americans doesn’t thrill the worlds most populous country and I would expect cut-backs or complete cessation of resources diverted to the care and feeding of those communities that have become too reliant upon governmental support.

A new black empire needs to arise to fulfill your dreams. I think blacks have been oppressed, victimized or ostracized from most empires created by non-blacks – even this one. Complete equality can be better obtained empire to empire as equals more easily than it can man to man for a black man living in another races empire.

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on Mon Jun 10th 2013 at 18:23:16 Sharina

@ Riverside_Rob

“paternalistic programs that actually benefit the black communities in this country”—don’t you mean programs that benefit the poor. They do not just benefit blacks.

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on Mon Jun 10th 2013 at 18:29:19 Sharina

I don’t know if it is me or just my imagination but Riverside_Rob comes off as “look what we have done for you.” “You won’t get it better any where else” attitude. (shakes head). Sort of the quilt blacks into agreeing and sympathizing tactic.

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on Mon Jun 10th 2013 at 19:57:33 Riverside_Rob

Sharina – benefit the poor is partly true – except when it gets to race based hiring practices and univeristy acceptance criteria. Those afirmative action programs intended to correct past discrimanatory practices.

I try to avoid the “look what we have done meme” I don’t want to condescend to you and besides, the blacks have had it rough in this country and my race is fully responsible for a lot of it. But we’re evolving as a race and culture in this country and we, for the most part shun our bigots, or at least shame them. What actions does your community take upon your bigots, or those who live up to the sterotype of the welfare queen and absent fathers? What roll does your community have in improving those conditions?

I’m not suggesting you pull yourself up by your bootstraps – I know that is somewher on the list of of “what racists say”. But the best you and I can hope for is clean slate for our kids. Sometimes I think we were closest to achieving that some years back, and now we’re moving away from it, becoming more polarized.

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on Mon Jun 10th 2013 at 23:43:06 abagond

@ Abbas

Take what help you can get. It is not help that I am knocking but the mindset that whites know what is best for others – or even have their interests at heart.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 00:57:36 abagond

@ Riverside Rob

White-dominated America does not help its poor nearly as much as other rich countries – in part because the Republicans have racialized poverty. Government spending on blacks is seen as a “waste” – because, you know, blacks are not Real People.

White-dominated America also throws black men in prison in numbers unthinkable in the rest of the world.

Thus white-dominated America’s “freedom” and its “generosity” to blacks.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:01:53 abagond

@ Sharina

“I don’t know if it is me or just my imagination but Riverside_Rob comes off as “look what we have done for you.” “You won’t get it better any where else” attitude. (shakes head). Sort of the quilt blacks into agreeing and sympathizing tactic.”

Not your imagination.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:18:22 abagond

@ Riverside Rob

White-dominated America has more black men in prison than there are people in Slovenia or Latvia (or 52 other countries). As a social policy that is completely nuts.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:23:01 Sharina

correction guilt*

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:37:19 Sharina

@ Riverside_Rob

“we, for the most part shun our bigots, or at least shame them.”–If you want to believe that. We still have segregated proms (oh yea) , so you can save the idea of what you think your people do. As for black bigots I don’t care what they do any more than I care what white bigots do. To each his or her own as long as they don’t invade my space.

“Those who live up to the sterotype of the welfare queen and absent fathers?”—This supposed stereotype is not just one of blacks although a bigot would well believe that. There are whites that fit into this grand category in which I find it so amazing how quick whites are to believe that it is a “black” thing. As far as what is being done about it…about the same thing the white community is doing about theirs…nothing. So contact me when America decides to fix this problem or at least use my ideas to fix it.

It is funny that you are concerned with avoiding terms that would make you sound racist yet have managed to sum up the ignorance of most racist in many of your posts. dictating to what blacks should do.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:41:25 Sharina

@Riverside_Rob

Oh and one more thing. I want you to actually look up Affirmative action. I want you to fully take in who all it benefits. You have this imaginary idea that it only benefits blacks. That all these government programs were made to cater to blacks. Frankly if AA was so great then why is the black unemployment rate so darn high.

When you are done with that then find one program that is just for black people and then you may actually have a case with me, but until then you are trying to dump bs on black people that can be applied to other groups as well.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:42:24 Sharina

@ Legion

🙂 I figured you would be the one to keep me on my toes. LOL

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:47:07 Sharina

Oh you were going to be mean to me. 😦

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:47:57 Sharina

LOL! you too.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 01:57:06 Herneith

Folks, ‘debating’ with Riverside Bob is like farting in a wind tunnel. You will just make him more paternalistic in his response to the culluds! Who knows?, maybe he is getting turned on by this? Don’t assist him.

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on Tue Jun 11th 2013 at 02:03:48 Sharina

Night Legion.

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on Sat Jul 6th 2013 at 22:20:46 The “NEW WORLD ORDER” IS A BIG, FAT FAIL!!! Get the Hell out Before You Screw Something Else Up!! | Truth60

[…] white paternalism (abagond.wordpress.com) […]

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on Fri Nov 15th 2013 at 01:47:38 BlvcKHerbsman

THANK YOU!!!

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on Fri Aug 1st 2014 at 18:21:41 Black American egos are too big for White opinion

There’s nothing wrong with White people offering their advice and trying to help others. Other people can accept that input, or choose not to.

There’s some White doctors in West Africa right now trying to stop the spread of Ebola throughout the population. Some local Africans are actively resisting the health advice and even the presence of the medical staff – there’s been riots, a bridge was knocked down in one place…

White people are always going to offer advice & opinions about something. So what. Because the Black American ego is huge – yet fragile – Black Americans resent the mere expression of White opinion. That’s the HUGE Black American ego reacting. Other non-Whites don’t have as much of a problem with White paternalism.

Pater = Father

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on Fri Aug 1st 2014 at 18:42:23 jefe

^ It seems like you have confused the concept of white people offering their advice and expertise to black people and actual white paternalism, which is more a belief system.

And also

Other non-Whites don’t have as much of a problem with White paternalism.

Yes, they do.

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on Mon Oct 13th 2014 at 09:11:18 biff

Like a hungry dog going back through the garbage looking for scraps, if he can’t find something recent about the oppression of East Asians, Kiwi will go back and find old posts to savor (like this one, Asian fetish, Half white-Half Asian, etc.).

“Japan is one of the richest countries in the world. Other East Asian countries like South Korea, Taiwan (Republic of China), and Singapore are also rich and ruled by nonwhites.”

Is it pure coincidence that the first three jurisdictions listed above emerged from WWII as U.S. puppet states, with significant U.S. military occupation still in evidence in the first two, and favorably priced U.S. armaments still on display in the third? Of course, Singapore, like Hong Kong, was British property. How did things turn out in the Asian countries that truly gave the white man the middle finger, a la China, North Korea and Cambodia? Or how about Malaysia, which practically engulfs the Singaporean city state?

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on Mon Oct 13th 2014 at 12:35:54 Jeff Elberfeld

We’re supposed to thank whites for the success of Asian countries but we’re not allowed to credit them for the condition of the world’s poorest countries, such as those in Africa, which were also colonized by the West but only longer and more brutally. In fact, these countries are still economic colonies of Western countries. We call it neocolonialism.

Hm. Then something went missing in your geography class. During the late 1980s/early 1990s I learnt… well, basically what you are saying here.

African countries export raw materials for a low price, and have to buy more sophisticated machines for an increasingly high price. And can borrow money if they cannot afford them against a ridiculous interest rate. Thus African countries are heading for disaster (as far as they are not already in them). Didn’t they teach you that at school, Kiwi?

See also (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEN4hcZutO0)

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on Tue Oct 14th 2014 at 18:49:11 Mbeti

@kiwi
your recent comments on this topic are excellent.
Very informative and insightful.

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on Tue Oct 14th 2014 at 19:13:57 Mbeti

your welcome!

“It would not be a far cry from when European powers occupied China and built parks that excluded dogs and Chinese, hence his comparison of me, an ethnic Chinese, to a dog.”

I remember viewing Fist of fury ,one of bruce lee’s martial arts films and the scene of him outside a building with a sign saying no dogs or chinese allowed and how some japanese charcters were making fun of him and then in his classic style he beat them down.

also the end of the film involved him not only defeating several japanese fighters but a russian as well.

I watched this film in my youth (and on occasion currently) and easily empathized with the chinese charcters including of course bruce lee.

These films where developed during the 1960’s and 1970’s a much more proactive time historically so the fact that china among many other nations was once colonized was not hidden or obscured.

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on Tue Oct 28th 2014 at 17:13:07 We Know What Is Best For Africans Like We Knew What Was Best For Native Americans | Perfectly Joyful Life

[…] White Paternalism […]

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on Tue Jan 26th 2016 at 06:17:03 bigpoppa

yall all are very very uneducated

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on Tue Jan 26th 2016 at 16:38:24 Herneith

^^^^^^^^^

Yeah baby!!!!

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on Tue Sep 13th 2016 at 06:55:18 vivi wake

Pink Europeans who call themselves ”whites” ONLY to show how
”righteous ” & ”humane” they are to me are just pure EVIL
Pink Europeans are the most VILE & HATRED creatures that had ever set
foot on this planet.
what is it paternalist about ALWAYS depicting other HUMAN BEINGS as colour, black, dark , race, tribe, ethnic group, diverse, visible, minority, criminal, poor, illiterate all the same, act the same, while MALICIOUSLY reducing those HUMAN BEINGS to colour & one single group .
In my view, I call that way of treating other people EVIL & IMMORAL not paternalist.
Paternalism is just those SELF – serving terms the arrogant pink throws out to degrade the HUMAN BEINGS they dragged in heavy chains, burned alive, forced into unpaid harsh labor & literally confined in zoo while at the same time BOASTING about their European ”humanity”. What an ABERRATION!
When you are constantly questioning the same people’s HUMANITY for over centuries & continue to do so until this day in order to RATIONALIZE your own savage ATROCITIES against them, the only word I see FIT to depict you, the pink Europeans, is E-V -I -L!
Even EVIL is not strong enough in my view.

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on Sat Jun 6th 2020 at 17:59:14 What does it mean to be an American?: A reflection on white positionality in the United States – …

[…] actual improvements to social conditions and uplifting oppressed voices. Abstraction also leads to paternalistic responses that privilege white perspectives over the viewpoints of those most affected by racial […]

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