Suey Park (1990- ) is the pen name of an American writer, anti-racist activist and admitted feminist killjoy. She is best known for #CancelColbert, a Twitter campaign in 2014 to get Stephen Colbert to apologize for a racist joke he made at the expense of Asian Americans. In 2013 she did #POC4CulturalEnrichment, #BlackPowerYellowPeril and #NotYourAsianSidekick.
She grew up a token Asian girl in Lake Zurich, Illinois, a lily-white, upper-middle-class suburb of Chicago. Other children would pull up the corner of their eyes and laugh at her. Where did they learn that from? A teacher made a “ching chong” joke about her first name. Etc.
Girls at her Korean church were getting eyelid surgery. For years she suffered from an eating disorder because of unattainable White ideas of beauty common among Asian Americans. No matter what she wore or how she coloured hair, she could never be “white enough”.
She was expected to be quiet and well spoken. Not to rock the boat till she got her PhD. It was not just Whites who expected this, but Asians too.
Her father was a business man. One day, when he went golfing with some White men, they started shooting golf balls – at his head!
He stood there and said nothing.
The US mainstream media is made up of the newspapers, websites, television and radio shows and so on with the largest nationwide audiences.
On Twitter she has 24,000 followers. That is not enough to put her in the public eye, except:
The mainstream media watches Twitter, particularly the trending topics. If a topic, like #CancelColbert, gets enough tweets and is interesting enough, outlets like the BBC or the Washington Post will write about it.
She has been able to game Twitter – and White racism – to get her topics to trend, getting them into the public eye.
#NotYourAsianSidekick, like Karnythia’s #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen, questioned how feminism has been hijacked by White women. It led to a discussion of issues facing Asian women which are generally silenced in public. Part of that meant criticism of Asian men.
Her model of racism is Andrea Smith’s Three Pillars of White Supremacy: the US is built on:
- slavery (anti-Black racism),
- genocide (anti-Native racism) and
- Orientalism (anti-Asian racism).
It sets people of colour in each pillar against each other for the greater good of Whites. She believes in making common cause with Black and Native Americans. The first anti-racist protest she took part in was against her university using a Native mascot, Chief Illiniwek.
She does not make common cause with Whites. “White ally” is an oxymoron. Just look at Tim Wise! Whites try to make you into a token, expect you to be grateful and tell you to watch your tone. You get tricked into the politics of respectability, valuing what White people think. Park:
We will not mute who we are in order to be accepted into the mainstream. If our liberation is dependent on getting our oppressors to humanize us, then we have already lost.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
- Suey Park on the Internet: @suey_park, criticalspontaneity.com
- #CancelColbert
- The three pillars of American white supremacy
- Is the white anti-racist an oxymoron?
- Tim Wise
- ching chong
- Asian double eyelid surgery
- White beauty
- Important skills for tokens and sidekicks:
Thanks for the background. It’s nice, after yesterday’s blog, to know more about her.
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OMG! Beauty… Brains AND integrity! What shall they do with her! *sarcasm*
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Abagond here are some other Asian American scholars worth a look at.
Elaine h. Kim
Nadia Kim
Frank chin
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Just curious, what has Tim Wise said or done that was out of bounds? I’ve followed his work a little and I haven’t seen anything from him that made my antennae stand up yet and I figured he might be one of the few white guys that “got it” so to speak. Wouldn’t be the 1st time I was disappointed by a white liberal who claimed to be down.
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@ A
She thinks Tim Wise is just in it for the money, that he does not truly care about racism.
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@ blackjew
Thanks!
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Nice post Abagond.
I’m starting to like this woman!
She thinks Tim Wise is just in it for the money, that he does not truly care about racism.
I’m wondering, does Jane Elliott just charge for expenses?
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The first anti-racist protest she took part in was against her university using a Native mascot, Chief Illiniwek.
I’d bet money she received her first rape and death threats at this point. Tough woman.
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Awesome post!
Abagond,
Please do a post on the recently deceased Chinese American Jazz saxophonist and activist Fred Ho and also one of my other favorite anti-racism bloggers, Japanese American, Scot Nakawaga
So glad to see this post on Chuey! I don’t agree with everything she says but her passion and persistence in the face of such criticism is a breath of fresh air!
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……Her father was a business man. One day, when he went golfing with some White men, they started shooting golf balls – at his head!
He stood there and said nothing…….
Decades ago I read that in post-Independence Kenya, the Indian High Commissioner to Kenya went to play golf at a previously all-white club. There he too experienced whites shooting golf balls at his head. This diplomat complained to the club’s Secretary …. who did nothing!
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@Abagond: “@ A
She thinks Tim Wise is just in it for the money, that he does not truly care about racism.”
Does this mean that if you want to be _really_ anti-racist, you must not make money off of any books, etc. you write about the subject? (Not that I’d have a problem with that.)
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I’m curious about this:
“She does not make common cause with Whites. “White ally” is an oxymoron. Just look at Tim Wise! Whites try to make you into a token, expect you to be grateful and tell you to watch your tone.”
So what happens if you are white but you DON’T try to make them into a “token”, or expect them to be “grateful”, or to “watch their tone”?
Also, with regards the “gratefulness” thing: What happens if instead of “expecting” them to be grateful, you pay attention to when they’re ungrateful and instead of chiding them or whatever, you take it seriously and go and do something to _modify yourself_ in response? Or would that be racist in some other way? If so, would it be best to just plain not let “gratefulness” even enter into your thinking at all?
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I know right; its like if you don’t like being yelled at, insulted or belittled you must be some kind of racist right?
Also isn’t she friends with Michelle Malkin?
Michelle “In Defense of Internment” Malkin?
Seems like Suey Park is just in it for the attention and potential for money, just another psuedo-liberal.
Basically if your cool with Park but not Wise…..you might have some bias going on there.
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“For years she suffered from an eating disorder because of unattainable White ideas of beauty common among Asian Americans.”
Ha… as opposed to Korean ideas of beauty that are so accepting of fatties? Give me a break.
A 23 year old “activist”? How about a disgruntled loser college kid. Sad story with all those mean white girls. Her parents should have ensured that she was in a “vibrant” school district in downtown Chi-town. Or maybe she should have stayed in Naperville. If she was just a loser fatty surrounded by Korean Americans then she gets no sympathy.
Sorry, but imo not worth a post.
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I was thinking the same thing. Aren’t Korean beauty standards way more rigid? from what I hear Korean beauty standards are narrow and nearly impossible to obtain. There is no shame in body shaming a woman in Korea culture.
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Sorry biff but not every Asian woman gonna love you long time.
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@ blackjew714 and biff
Ahem…fellas ALL beauty standards are not standards at all…just misogynic ideals demanded from women without regard to anything about character.
Ms Park vs Mr Wise…hummmmm. I believe Ms Park to be more genuine in her efforts and she is at the very least a Millenial…not a generation Xer like Mr Wise.
Mr Wise is more the “loser” who only found his stride writing about what everyone knows. Ms park on the other hand, has a graduate degree. She actually experienced racism!!!. Neither of these folks are making friends but….the liberal white self aggrandizing crowd will always support Mr Wise. However that same crowd will attack Ms Park freely. She has more to lose and she knows it.
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Oh and another thing,
Don’t you realize those in the Korean community are telling her to “just be quiet”…”don’t identify with other minorites”…”you could have a better life”…”just shut the hell up”. Then there are the guilt trips …”oh your family did so much for you …you have advantage!”
See….yeah she could go off marry a fetishized white dude live in a nice house with a BMW in the garage!
But maybe she wants to live in a better culture as a whole and be a part of making that happen
Just sayin
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@jacque
Thanks. Appreciate the answer.
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[Oh and another thing,
Don’t you realize those in the Korean community are telling her to “just be quiet”…”don’t identify with other minorites”…”you could have a better life”…”just shut the hell up”. Then there are the guilt trips …”oh your family did so much for you …you have advantage.”
Telling her not to identify with other minorities, that’s some serious bull. what do they expect her to do, identify with the mahority?
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White men shooting golf balls at her father’s head. “Really”? I am so not surprised by this. That’s just messed up. I am shaking my head.
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Well she certainly upset the apple cart when she spoke out about the Colbert comments. Again, good for her.
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Kil Ja Kim was another who also said that the white anti-racist is an oxymoron:
http://www.nathanielturner.com/whiteantiracistsopenletter.htm
Here’s an excerpt:
Whiteness is a social and political construct rooted in white supremacy. Drawing from the work of Frank Wilderson, I understand white supremacy as a structure and system of beliefs rooted in European and US imperialism in which certain racialized bodies (non-white) are selected for premature negation whether through cultural, physical, psychological genocide, containment or other forms of social death. White supremacy is at the heart of the US social system and civil society. In short, white supremacy is not just a series of practices or privilege, but a larger social structure and system of domination that overly-values and rewards those who are racialized as white. The rest of us are constructed as undeserving to be considered human, although there is significant variation within non-white populations of how our bodies are encoded, treated and (de)valued.
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[…] She has been able to game Twitter – and White racism – to get her topics to trend, getting them into the public eye.#NotYourAsianSidekick, like Karnythia’s #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen, questioned how feminism has been hijacked by White women. It led to a discussion of issues facing Asian women which are generally silenced in public. Part of that meant criticism of Asian men.Her model of racism is Andrea Smith’s Three Pillars of White Supremacy: the US is built on:slavery (anti-Black racism),genocide (anti-Native racism) andOrientalism (anti-Asian racism).It sets people of colour in each pillar against each other for the greater good of Whites. She believes in making common cause with Black and Native Americans. […]
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I love her passion.
I think Tim Wise is great. I’m not sure how she got the idea that he is not genuine.
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@jonblaze5
That is what is being pushed via the Model Minority stereotype.
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@With Love Glenn,
It is not just Suey Park that would get that idea. Did you read that link that Abagond posted above about whites and anti-racist, and what Malcolm X said?
It seems the argument is, if one is white and wants to be an anti-racist, then one must be willing to give up being white (ie., enjoying white privilege). Wise did not do that. He writes about stuff that everyone already knows, just that white people are unwilling to talk about. Isn’t that the whole point of his book “White Like Me”? (I have not read it, so I am not sure.).
So, there is an aspect of disingenuity in it. If he were a genuine anti-activist, he should be trying to dismantle the white privilege system, not just report about it.
So, when Tim Wise reports, his message is basically “Whites enjoy White Privilege” to a white audience. They listen and go back home to enjoying their white privilege.
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Thinking about it; if she’s a friend of Michelle Malkin and factoring in she’s later commented that she was just being sarcastic or using satire…..what she was just not in the sense people think.
What would be a good way for a conservative/republican sort who had no problem with the internment of the Japanese and who wanted to discredit the liberal prospective?
Not only has she managed to damage the image of your general liberal activist with the whole #cancelcolbert but at the same time has made it so people will be less likely to go after conservatives, republicans and racists.
From the perspective of wanting to support the conservative moment she’s done a pretty good job.
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^^
Isn’t possible to critique some aspects of the AF/WM dynamic without resorting to describing the women involved in misogynistic terms? Instead of blaming Asian women (who are equally the victims of stereotyping), how about turning a critical eye at those who are holding the power in those relationships??
On the other hand, it’s interesting that others are characterising Suey Park as far/ugly etc when she is clearly an attractive woman. I wonder if that commenter would mock Park’s struggles with an eating disorder if she were from the Amy Tan school of ‘feminism’?
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@kiwi
Heard that even Myanmar’s Aung San Suu Kyi had a white husband.
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@George Ryder:
“If you want to be a real anti-racist you cannot be white, it’s an oxymoron. The reason for this is you can never trust your oppressor to be an ally, EVER.”
That is interesting… And simplistic.
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So we have to wait for Tim Wise’s book “Why I gave up being White” before he can become an anti-racist. “White Like Me” doesn’t cut it.
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^^^
Arun Gupta’s written an interesting critique of Suey Park’s work: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arun-gupta/bitcoin-activism-how-mich_b_5169731.html).
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Suey would not be considered particularly attractive in the Korean American community. Notice how this picture is taken at a weird angle. This is a hallmark of not so attractive girls trying to trick the world into believing they are attractive. Google her and you can find some other pictures that are probably more true to life.
I am picking on her because I think what she’s doing is destructive to society generally, and it’s ridiculous to blame her eating disorders on white American women, who are a lot heavier on average than Korean American women.
My educated guess would be that she winds up dating mostly white dudes (sorry Kiwi). If she were more attractive by Korean American standards and less vocal, I would say she’d be more likely to date Asian Americans.
Jacque said “ALL beauty standards are not standards at all…just misogynic ideals demanded from women without regard to anything about character.” This is one of the stupidest things I’ve read recently. Men are programmed to be attracted to women who are young (tied to fertility) and attractive (tied to fertility and genetic fitness). Women, who have to give birth and are generally stuck with the kid, have other biological considerations. If they want a man who can be a provider, is that a form of “misandry”? If they prefer a guy who is confident and strong over a guy who is nice but weak is that also a form of misandry? Nature is what it is. There is a reason that, across all time periods and cultures and races, men and women both generally (note this key word please) prefer pairings where (i) the man is bigger, stronger, taller, older and earns more money. To blame these natural preferences on misogyny and patriarchy is about as ridiculous as it gets.
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@ biff
On the contrary, I’ve watched her interview with HuffPo and she is pretty. She’s not the Kim Tae-Hee/Moon Geyn-Young style of cuteness that a lot of Korean guys seem to go for but she is an attractive girl. She’s certainly not overweight.
Where has anyone on this thread claimed that it’s not natural for women to prefer confident, strong men? I certainly do.
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^^ I meant, of course, Moon Geun-Young.
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@ biff
I have a question for you – are you Asplund?? Just clicked that the details you’re dropping about your life etc are almost identical. Plus your writing style is remarkably similar.
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@biff
You stole the words right out of my mouth. How can women rail against male standards when they have their own? Men put more weight on beauty, women put more weight money, power, and status. These cultural standards are rooted in our biology and have the tendency to marginalized many on both sides of the romantic market place.
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That being said, i think it is highly sexist to have a post discussing the inner workings of a female’s mind devolve into a conversation of her attractiveness and dating life -_-. What’s funny is that many apparent female commenters are taking part in the stripping away of Ms. Park’s humanity, implicity dehumanizing her by making her opinions secondary and sexual worth primary to this discussion.
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Thanks, Prag.
Wordy, it’s also natural for men to like beautiful women. I was responding to a comment (if you read carefully, you may see my point). And no, I’m not Asplund (seriously).
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@ The Pragmatist
I have no desire to make Suey Park’s appearance the subject of discussion. I was merely responding to the multiple disparaging remarks made by another commenter. I didn’t want to let those comments go by, just as I didn’t let a comment by another male about AW (I’m referring to the comment about legs opening).
Nevertheless, you’re right – it’s highly disrespectful that we are talking about her looks at all when the focus of discussion should be her work.
@ biff
I’m not disputing the fact that men are geared to prefer good looking women – of course they are! I think your point was:
– Suey Park attributed her eating disorder to the pressure created by white beauty ideals (particularly thinness)
– This was disingenuous as, in fact, Korean beauty standards are far narrower and Ms Park would have felt far more pressured by those ideals.
Was that it?
On another note, I’ve read some of Ms Park’s tweets, interviews and articles. She writes and speaks very passionately, persuasively and well – but as covered in the article I linked above it’s concerning that she appears to have fallen out with many of her former allies and supporters. She didn’t credit Juliet Shen, for example, for being the co-creator of the #NotYourAsianSidekick campaign, and then abused her on twitter for calling it out.
A similar thing happened when Ms Park made common cause with Michelle Malkin When Jeff Yang – a former mentor of hers – questioned this she and her followers basically abused him, without actually addressing his arguments.
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Not sure how this discussion turned out to be about Suey’s looks–but in all fairness, many single Korean- American men will find her good-looking.
I think MOST men of color would.
@Kiwi– i get the impression that Suey will end up marrying an Asian-American fellow. There was a nytimes article published two years ago discussing the decline in interracial marriage among young (25-40) Asian-Americans in favor for marrying inter ethnically within the Asian cultures. Many of the couples featured felt that their careers hindered them from meeting quality Asian partners and they dated several whites until they met each other–and, then, well the rest is history :).
Rest assured Kiwi–most Asian-American men get romantic preferential treatment from Asian-American women. ;).
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For Kiwi–;)
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@ WithloveGlen@getgln: “Ditto” about Tim Wise.
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@ Kiwi
I get what you’re saying. Maybe it is a liberal thing but I do feel that it would be very inappropriate for me to accuse a person of colour of racism.
I do agree that some Asian women can be very sexist against Asian men, in that they do not make common cause with them about the very racism and demeaning stereotypes that are propagated about AM. As I mentioned on another thread, I work with a guy who is married to an AW and he has criticised AM in my presence – leading me to suspect that he must do so in hers as well.
In terms of Suey Park’s dating preferences that seems to be a complete mystery. She has, however, accused Asian men of being oppressive etc and I don’t think her views are helpful in combating stereotypes. I was disappointed to see her tweet to Jeff Yang, for example:
(https://twitter.com/suey_park/status/450176331372703744/photo/1)
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^^ And Ms Park, by endorsing Michelle Malkin was effectively justifying her views. I probably don’t need to remind anyone here that Malkin has published a book justifying the WWII internment of Japanese Americans.
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@ abagond
Well, here’s what Arun Gupta had to say about the exchange:
Much of what Suey Park tweets and writes is very insightful and I actually agreed with her #CancelColbert campaign. That doesn’t mean that her tactics are always good and her exclusion of all dissenting voices is unhealthy.
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As far as I know Suey Park does NOT generally endorse Michelle Malkin, much less the Japanese American internment.
Malkin DID support #CancelColbert. They are both against the “ching chong” slur, at least when used by White liberals. Malkin condemned Colbert’s and Rosie O’Donnell’s use of it. I do not know if she condemned its use by fellow right-winger Rush Limbaugh. Like Park, the slur was used against Malkin growing up.
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Being a black person who is originally from the Chicagoland area, I feel for this lady having to go through the dreadful experience of growing up in a lily-white enclave like Lake Zurich. I have no trouble visualizing the boorish, uncouth racism and the disrespect they showed towards her and her family. Even Martin Luther King himself was shocked at how nasty the white racists on the southwest side of Chicago were when he visited there. Believe me, he wasn’t lying. She certainly has my respect for being a survivor.
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I will just comment on Suey Park’s experiences of racism in her community growing up. One of the most insidious things about racism as it affects women of color (and some men of color) is that it emphasizes “sameness” instead of embracing individuality. To fit in, to be accepted, you have to be like everybody else. And if you aren’t? Your differences will be used against you. As a young girl, Park felt that she couldn’t live up to certain beauty standards…those of her own culture and those of the white people she encountered. My own experiences were similar growing up, feeling rejected by my culture and also by the white community, to some extent.
Park is definitely not an “ugly” woman but based on the environment in which she grew up, it is easy to see why she felt that way. In my own culture I’ve been called “fat” when I was a size 0, which shows how pervasive this Eurocentric ideal still is. I know that some Asian women, like Park, struggle with meeting cultural ideals of being rail-thin and very fair-skinned. It is bad enough when your own culture places unrealistic expectations on you on how you should look and behave. The problem is also compounded when you are around bigoted people who dehumanize you with stereotypes and racist insults.
I understand completely how it must have felt to her, and I am not Asian. I am also several years older than she is.
I wonder if she ever had any mentors or positive role models to tell her that she was OK the way she was? That she didn’t have to be white to be beautiful? That she didn’t have to accept racist or hateful treatment? My guess is that most likely she didn’t have anyone to tell her this.
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Sorry, I am MB who posted above…those are my initials but I usually post as Cinnamondiva, just so Abagond remembers me and knows I’m not a troll. Made a mistake there.
Some more thoughts I’d like to share…we all have preferences and I won’t deny that some of it is based on biology. However, it can also be said that racism can and often does influence how we see beauty and how it shapes a person’s self-image.
I don’t think that Suey is blaming her eating disorder on white women…just saying that the pressure from her culture, as well as the racism she experienced from white people, is what contributed to it. Just wanted to point that out to one poster in particular.
And it is worth noting that although many white women are fat, there is still a certain image that many girls/women try to attain. It’s not just about thinness but about having a certain type of hair, certain type of coloring, features, etc. Being thin is admired in Asian communities but let’s not pretend that white women have no issues with body image and weight. Karen Carpenter, anyone? It is a sick obsession in many cultures.
I can see a young impressionable girl hearing from one side that she is “fat” and from another side that she isn’t pretty enough, and understand the damage that can do. The thing about eyelid surgery for some Asian women is about wanting to fit a more Caucasian beauty ideal and not wanting to be mocked for having a different eye shape. With me, the main issue was my hair growing up. I was told so often that I had “n*gger hair” and how ugly it was and the overall message was that I couldn’t be pretty because I didn’t have a certain type of hair. And despite being thin, I still wasn’t thin enough…my hips were too broad, my butt was too round and my thighs were too thick. So perhaps Suey Park felt that she needed to conform to a certain look instead of standing out, especially when she was younger.
As to whether it is self-hate when people have interracial relationships, that depends because every situation is different. My husband is white but I’ve also had relationships with other kinds of men. I’m sure that some people have wondered why I didn’t marry a Jamaican (my culture) or Black American or even Latino (can’t figure that one out)…but in the end, it had nothing to do with self-hate. I met a person who loved and appreciated me for who I was. And I feel the same way about him.
Trying to control other people’s relationships is a waste of time. The only problem is, IMO, if the person in a relationship with a white person is constantly disparaging their own race or culture. Or, as in the case of V. Stiviano, they allow themselves and their people to be disrespected because they benefit from a white person’s money or attention…now that is truly “selling out”.
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@ Kiwi…I’m enjoying your comments, very insightful. I’ve noticed some similarities in my Jamaican culture as well. My mother has lived in the US since the 70’s and despite her hard work, tax-paying, etc…she still doesn’t truly feel like she is a “real” American. She didn’t prepare me for racism or have any real discussions with me about it. I was taught to not rock the boat, even in situations that called for it. I think it is partly generational with some folks because they still hold on to the colonial mentality. I agree, this mindset is problematic but we don’t have to follow it.
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@Biff
Thank you for making my point for me.
What the bloody hell does it matter what this young woman looks like? Who cares which men ogle her? She is going on with her life and convictions.
There are women in the world who making a contribution to the world and being eye candy is not on the menu! The truth is out there if you look. I suggest Jack Holland’s “Misogyny, The Worlds Oldest Prejudice” It should enlighten you. White supremacy,racism and sexism are TIGHTLY intertwined.
I bought Tim Wise’s “White Like Me”….I want my money back
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@ Jacque
Why do you want your money back?
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I am very glad you say “do not make allies with whites”. Considering we make up 3/4 of the population, the faster you ostracize the white liberals which keep us from getting at you the faster we can deport all of you and restore our country to its pinnacle. Hope you enjoy life in Liberia.
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@ Rusty
Suey Park thinks that in the US Whites will sink into demographic insignificance soon enough. People of colour are better off joining together than to hitching their fortunes to some segment of the White population which does not even have their best interests at heart.
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@jacque:
“White supremacy,racism and sexism are TIGHTLY intertwined.”
You forgot the idea which created or nourishes them all: capitalism.
Never ever convince yourself that racism is not connected to the social injustice and economics. It is the whole point. It supports it. It needs it.
The Big Money needs divided, poor, uneducated under classes for its slaves. Even today. Just look how the lowest salaries have developed by their buying power. In the 1950’s you could live with your salary working at McDonlands. Not today. Granted, times were tough and you were poor, BUT you could buy food and pay the rent working as a delivery man/cleaner/servant etc. Not today.
Just last year one study revealed that last time the gap between the rich and the poor was so big as it is today, was in 1913. That is how well they have managed to turn the clock back.
What thats got to do with racism, you may ask.
Well, everything…
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@ Abagond
I want my money back because there was nothing new…no real suggestions and an all over boring read. A slightly enlightened 7th grader could have done better.
@ sami
I am well aware of his point ..thank you…as someone who lives with the effects of racism,sexism and capitalism on a daily basis..its not pretty, as we all well know.. Sensible,progressive , forward thinking white people need to STOP voting against their own interests stop being apathetic and just do the math..White supremacy will crumble on its own sword. That very same sword used to oppress and divide peoples of the earth.
@rusty
Self deprtation is always an option if you wish. Maybe South Africa will welcome you.
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Let’s hear it for SELF DEPORTATION! Woohoooo!
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True; Park didn’t outright say she supported Malkin and “In Defense of Internment” but she allowed her as a legitimately voice to be associated with her.
Bringing credence to what Malkin said and ultimately being okay with it.
And if she’s trying to unite the non-white races being associated with somebody whose okay with Paula Deen’s racism is probably not the best ally to have.
In literally almost every way, Malkin is the counter-opposite of Park if her view points and statements are to be taken as true.
And Biff does have a good point; she’s blaming her eating disorders on white aesthetic standards when Asian ones are even harsher?
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I might have to acknowledge something about that eating disorder thing. She might have attributed her own eating disorders to white aesthetics standards but East Asian standards are even more extreme than white standards. She might have learned the feminine aesthetic standards from whites, but it is not just a white thing..
Feminine standards of beauty are harsh everywhere.
Did she actually state that somewhere? I would like to see the original source.
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@jacque:
“Sensible,progressive , forward thinking white people need to STOP voting against their own interests stop being apathetic and just do the math”
Yes!
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@ jefe
What she said was far more nuanced than the way biff is portraying it. She said:
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It’s interesting that Suey Park suffers so many personal attacks online, yet is clearly comfortable making her own ad hominem attacks to anyone who disagrees with her, based on their race and gender.
When her interviewer on HuffPo TV called her opinion stupid, she basically said he was unqualified to have an opinion on it, since he was a white male and could not possibly understand her POV.
When Jeff Yang disagreed with her, she called him a gaslighting patriarch. When a large number of male Asian media personalities disagreed with the #CancelColbert campaign, she called them out for being sexist.
In other words, in the mind of Suey Park, if you disagree with Suey Park, you must have something wrong with you. If you are male and disagree with her, it’s because you hate women. If you are white and disagree with her, you are probably a racist. If you are Asian and disagree with her (as the majority of Asians do, frankly), it’s because you are whitewashed and selling out your race.
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Suey Park:
More:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2013/12/17/suey-park-asian-american-women-are-notyourasiansidekick/
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Here is the HuffPo TV interview that Eurasian Sensation is talking about. Judge for yourself what went down:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNK-e6nnFGY)
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@ Eurasian Sensation
In Suey Park’s defence, that interviewer was being incredibly patronising. He constantly interrupted her, asked leading questions and then mocked her answers.
On the other hand, she does seem to be quite vitriolic at times toward anyone who disagrees with her views.
For example:
Over the past week Ms Park has been tweeting criticisms about the new ‘Fresh Off the Boat’ series. Eddie Huang – the guy who wrote the book the series is based on – responded by saying that the series was supposed to be a humorous representation of his family’s experiences. Others (incl Jeff Yang, whose son is in the show) defended Huang, saying that he and other Asian Americans have a right to tell their stories without Ms Park’s direction/interference.
Once again, Ms Park made accusations of ‘patriarchy’ etc. Huang later posted a direct message she had sent him congratulating him on the new series – her critical tweets started flooding in after he failed to reply:
A bit hypocritical.
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vitriolic, humourless, etc, does not necessarily make her wrong:
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@ Eurasian Sensation
How do you know this?
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^^
This is what Eddie Huang said in a separate interview:
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@ abagond
I did not say she was wrong. I am criticising her tactics. That is not the same as criticising her ‘tone’.
If you look at the discourse on twitter it does seem that many Asian Americans do disagree with Ms Park.
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Wordy:
um, your quote from Suey, “I had an eating disorder for a long time due to strict expectations of Americans &Koreans” is not “far more nuanced” than anything. It’s not even decent English, but seems she is trying to blame everyone possible. Meanwhile, Abagond has said “For years she suffered from an eating disorder because of unattainable White ideas of beauty…” I was basing my commentary on Abagond’s summary. Also interesting that she was in a “lily-white” area of Chicago, but still able to attend a “Korean church” nearby…
I am only bringing up the female beauty thing because it was brought up in Abagond’s post. Suffice it to say that girls thousands of years ago were absolutely obsessed about their appearance. This is nothing new and nothing to lay on western civilization or white people.
Also, don’t blame men for the way we are biologically programmed, when women have corresponding programming of their own. That is the point. Suey’s body image and insecurity is her own problem. However, if it makes even a few girls slim down, fat shaming saves lives. Obesity is a serious epidemic in the U.S. and the millions of lives lost prematurely because of excess weight can’t even be compared with the few girls who die because they are trying to be thinner…
Kiwi: you had a couple very good comments above (minus your insinuation that Suey is my ex).
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@ biff
What makes you think the Korean church was nearby?
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@ biff
Nobody is blaming men for their ‘biological programming’. There is a very significant distance between encouraging women to be healthy and fit and pressuring women to become so thin that they develop eating disorders.
Yes, the obesity epidemic in the US/Australia etc is very concerning. The whole ‘body shaming’ ‘fat-activism’ stuff is really silly IMO. Fact is it’s unhealthy to be fat, just as it’s unhealthy to be anorexic.
But don’t you have anything else to say about her arguments? Did you agree with her #CancelColbert campaign?
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I don’t get the “there are no white allies”-thing. Wouldn’t that mean in consequence that the white nationalists have it right and whites should opely support white supremacy and segregation?
I don’t mean she’s nescessarily wrong, I just can’t see what her vision of the fight against racism is.
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@ abagond:
Ok let me rephrase that. “As the majority of Asians seem to do”, but honestly I have no way of knowing. Most people don’t seem to care that much. There is a whole heap of discourse from Asian-Americans on the web which either defends Colbert wholeheartedly, or say the only thing wrong is that the tweet was not presented in its proper context. Read Angry Asian Man, or Jeff Yang, or Ask A Korean – these are some VIPs of the Asian-American blogosphere. If the mere mention of “ching-chong” and “Oriental” is so offensive, why are those guys not up in arms?
Park responds to those people by accusing them of throwing Asian women under the bus. What’s one thing got to do with the other?
Park appears to be someone who will not only play the race card, but the gender card, the disability card and the sexuality card as well, at any time when it suits her.
Note also that a lot of the people weighing in on Park’s side about Colbert are not in fact Asian, but activists of various races. It’s interesting to hear black people and white people saying how offensive something is to Asians, while hearing lots of Asians say how it didn’t offend them.
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Abagond said, “What makes you think the Korean church was nearby?”
She went to it. Of course, it’s possible she had to drive 1 hour each way to get to church, but not likely. Anyway, she was almost certainly spending a lot of time around Korean American kids her age. So, it’s not like she was in rural Kentucky… And frankly, if she was in a lily-white neighborhood, it’s likely her parents worked very hard to get her into that school district.
Wordy: I think she’s immature and not too bright. She can’t see that, in the big picture, she’s hurting her cause through her actions, and that most in the community she claims to represent don’t back her tactics. As has been noted, she lashes out at everyone who disagrees with her. Typical crazy Korean girl. On the other hand, having more people like her will actually help more whites and Asians wake up and see how ridiculous PC dogma is, so I welcome her contributions.
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Abagond,
I think we need to do a post on Asian-American churches. It is obviously a blind spot for most white Americans, maybe for some blacks too.
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@Kartoffel
Have you been trying to learn more about typical white Anti-racists (like Tim Wise) and what Malcolm X said about them?
It is really quite simple. To fight white racism, you have to stop being white.
For POC, it means stop trying to join the white club, which is built to continue racism and white supremacy.
For whites, it means giving up your white privilege. In other words, stop being white. If you don’t understand what it means for a white person to stop being white, then it may take a while for you to understand. Listening to Tim Wise will not teach you that.
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Tweet from angry Asian man….”If you’re defending Colbert by issuing online threats of death and rape, I doubt you’re in a good place to talk about the nuances of satire.” Other than that does not seem he has much to say on the matter.
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This article gives a great understanding of the matter.
http://www.racialicious.com/2014/03/31/why-colberts-joke-failed-notyoursafecomedyrace/
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@ Sharina
Actually, Angry Asian Man said a lot more than that:
He was a bit more reserved than Ask A Korean, who said:
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@GR, You obviously don’t get my meaning. I am sorry that you did not feel any contribution for that. I did not mean stop being of European descent. I mean being white, as in accepting white privilege. I guess it just went over your head.
Malcolm X explained it – he gave the example of John Brown.
The ancestors of many “white” people in America were not “white” when they arrived. They had to learn how to be “white”. Maybe you don’t understand what that means.
In early-mid 20th century America, there was a sort of alliance between blacks and Jews to fight against segregation and racism. I don’t see it so much any more. Basically, I think most Jews have become “white” after 2-3 additional generations.
My mother never gave up being white. I think she could have, but she didn’t. She already lost some of it after her marriage; I don’t think she would consider giving any more of it up. I don’t mean stop being a person of European descent. I mean giving up white privilege. In my mother’s case, she actually pulled it out when she felt she had to or wanted to. I don’t think it is something horrible per se. But it is what people do.
People do talk about “Asians” becoming white. about Latinos becoming “white”. Even black people becoming “white”. Is that such a hard concept to understand?
Sorry you find it “fluff”. But I was dead serious about what I said.
If you are still clueless, then let me ask you – you don’t like Tim Wise’s approach to being a white anti-racist. How can a white person be an ally to combat white racism then? Is there an avenue to do that? How?
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^^
By the way, I am not saying that I agree with these views. I know I’m not in a place to decide what should or should not offend Asian Americans.
But Eurasian Sensation’s comments are on point in my opinion.
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That is exactly what we are taught in the US education system.
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@wordynerdygirl,
I appreciate ES’s discourse too.
But, for me, it is a bit off point. It was not Colbert’s parody that was so offensive. It is also not a matter with whether people agree or disagree with Ms. Park (I don’t necessarily particular agree with her either). It was the white media’s silencing people from bringing up whatever issues they had with it, as though they know what should be offensive or not offensive to other people. My personal issue is that Asian-Americans are always a safe target to use offensive language with (whether or not it was intended to be offensive) and they decide whether anyone should be offended by it.
My point is – Let Ms. Park express her opinion.
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OK, sorry, really had to reread it many times.
How does a white person stop being “white”?
HA! 😛
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So, are you saying that Suey Park (actually, it won’t be her – anyone else who might decide to appoint themselves as mentor) should teach people, esp. white people, how to stop being white
It wasn’t me telling white people to stop being white (and therefore not explaining how to do it). I was just trying to explain the concept of what it means for a white person to stop being white. Teaching white people what white privilege is, just like what Tim Wise does is one thing. Teaching white people how not to be white so that they can effectively be an ally to combat white racism – -that’s another whole ball of wax.
Is there a book on that? would any white person really want to buy it?
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wordynerdygirl
I would not conclude two more tweets as a lot more, but even so it still does not appear he (angry Asian man) has much to say on the matter none the less. I have not read much on Jeff Yang or Ask a Asian so I do appreciate you providing a post from Ask a Asian
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@wordynerdygirl
I take that back. He made quite a few tweets and they seem wishy washy at best. while he on march 28th he said:
Can’t say I agree with #CancelColbert.— Angry Asian Man (@angryasianman) March 28, 2014
Was it a good joke? Naw. But considered together — the show, the tweet, and the point of the joke — the rage feels misdirected.— Angry Asian Man (@angryasianman) March 28, 2014
He also said:
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
If you’re going to mock an actual thing called the “Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation,” you better go big. You have to.
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
Hearing ‘ching chong ding dong’ — from Colbert or in any context — will always set off WTF alarms for me.
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
If you’re defending Colbert by issuing online threats of death and rape, I doubt you’re in a good place to talk about the nuances of satire.
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
If your efforts are getting the thumbs up from Michelle Malkin, something has gone horribly wrong.
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
As someone who is constantly being shouted at to sit the fuck down, who am I to tell people what not to get angry about?
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
Racist shit is often justified as “satire.” Most get it wrong. But Stephen Colbert is a muthafuckin’ master satirist. Most of the time.
Angry Asian Man @angryasianman · Mar 28
Why is ironic Asian mockery so often the go-to punchline for jokes illustrating the ridiculousness of racism?
I doubt he is for the cause but I don’t think he sees the “joke” as ok either.
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wordynerdygirl
I have a comment in moderation for you. I did a further look at angery asian man’s twitter and it turns out he actually says a lot more indeed and all on the same day no less.
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correction angry
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OK, GR, plenty of people have done that to some extent already.
Malcolm X did it.
Bell Hooks did it.
Kil Ja Kim did it in “The White Anti-Racist is an Oxymoron” (2003).
Even abagond has done it
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/is-the-white-anti-racist-an-oxymoron/)
Of course, these are not manuals on how whites can give up whiteness to become an anti-racist ally. I am not sure there is a book out there, that is why I am asking. Kil Ja Kim did postulate some guidelines. You can read the comments to Abagond’s post above. Some people had some ideas on what whites could do?
All I said was that Tim Wise is not teaching whites how to give up white privilege. He is merely trying to teach them that they have it.
Maybe it is like teaching someone that they have a drug addiction without teaching them how to get off their addiction. I guess they have to realize they have an addiction first before they get off it. They cannot effective promote a drug free environment if they themselves are addicted to the drug and refuse to give it up.
I am not an expert on how to give up whiteness, but I, like others, may have some ideas.
Does that include you?
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Couple of typos and punctuation errors above, hope it is clear enough. e,g,
cannot effectively promote a drug free environment
etc.
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@ jefe:
It was the white media’s silencing people from bringing up whatever issues they had with it, as though they know what should be offensive or not offensive to other people. My personal issue is that Asian-Americans are always a safe target to use offensive language with (whether or not it was intended to be offensive) and they decide whether anyone should be offended by it.
Sure, Asian-Americans should decide what is offensive to Asian-Americans. But how many Asian-Americans does it take to declare that something is definitely offensive? Who made Suey Park the judge and jury in this case? If Suey Park says a joke is racist and reprehensible, but lots of other Asians say that no, we understand the context of the joke and are not offended, who do we believe? Just being Asian-American does not qualify Park to be the barometer for the feelings of the Asian-American community.
As a person of Asian extraction myself, I agree that Asians are a safe target for racist jokes. (The SNL skit skewering the racial discourse surrounding Jeremy Lin was a fantastic example of this.) I just don’t think Colbert’s joke fits into that category. I think sometimes to illustrate that something is racist, it’s totally valid to show an example of what racism looks like.
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@ES,
Nobody. She isn’t. She was never the barometer. No individual is. I certainly do not recognize her as one.
Just as no individual made the yardstick to measure when we can use the N-word, blackface, c00n, etc. even under the context of satire. I am sure that there were millions of people, even blacks, who had no problem with any or all of those words back in the 50s especially when they were just doing satire.
But, should she be silenced because some disagree with her? No.
I respect your opinion as an individual. No individual can serve as a barometer for this.
But, please tell me, if Asians were not chosen as the target for this joke, what group could have been chosen? What group should have been chosen?
There is a reason why Colbert chose Asian-Americans racial epithets to do his satire.
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I don’t think recruiting white anti-racist allies who tenaciously cling to their whiteness was ever part of their business plan.
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George Ryder
I think Matari has in detailed explained to you what whiteness is and thus it becomes up to you to decided the best way to get rid of it or give it up. Each person is different in how they process and make that determination and it is thus reasonable to say that no one can make the type of determination for you.
If you have a bad habit or personality trait how do you change it?
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You’re probably not on their recruitment list either.
We have examples from the past. I don’t know if there will be a John Brown or Jim Zwerg (or Goodman and Schwerner) for the 21st century.
Really sorry you find this such a joke. It is not really such a whimsical idea at all. But don’t worry about any of them trying to recruit you anytime soon.
As I said, I understand the addiction. My mother would never give up white privilege either. It is not a matter of getting a “new identity”. It is about releasing the addiction.
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Yet that is exactly what white people tell others to do and some black and brown people do give it up to become white (ie, members of the “white club”).
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Sharina,
Your comment came out of moderation. Thank you for sharing the tweets from Angry Asian Man.
I actually find him to be closer to the mark. Did he send any more tweets?
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jefe:
Not the Irish or Italians, as it’s still permissible to publish unflattering stereotypes about those groups with impunity. Using them may have had the opposite of the intended effect, as the induced reaction might have been, “If those groups aren’t outraged, why is this other group?”
Perhaps the unasked question in all of this is whether we should all become more tolerant or less tolerant.
If it’s the latter, I hope I can count on your support to abolish hurtful depictions of our Irish and Italian brethren.#CancelMobMovies. Trend it!
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@ Sharina
Thanks for the Angry Asian Man tweets.
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George
What were “white” people before they made a category of white? So this idea of them being a blank slate is about as close to bs as one can get. I am guessing you don’t understand whiteness and you don’t care to. Fine if you don’t care to, but stop making it seem like everyone else is wrong or confused by it.
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Jefe
He has a few more, but they all seem to be along the same lines as the ones posted above.
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Abagond
No problem.
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GR, sorry this is going over your head,even with all the links being shared with you.
I guess you didn’t find any other choice but to join the white club.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/the-white-club/)
Everyone you grew up with joined the White Club so you found it the natural course. You did not even question it.
I had that choice rammed at me growing up. None of the choices were that appetizing – had to decide which I could live with. But I realize I had a choice. You seem to find it folly that it can actually be presented as a choice.
My brother decided to try to join and carry out the duties. This is one of our communication barriers because he decided to join the club. I wonder how he could join the club that tried to burn his down when he was a kid, that hurled the Ching Chong chants at him. But he did.
I had to go through a process of trial and error to figure out where to go. But I knew the White Club would not be it. I did not want to become a slave to it. And I felt it was like slavery (yes, indeed, like a form of oppression).
Maybe the White Club is like being in the Matrix. Neo was born into the Matrix, but knew something was wrong. He was recruited to leave it and given the choice of the blue and red pill. He got out and later discovered the truth. What was the other character’s name, Syfer? He wanted to get reinserted into the Matrix, even to the point of betraying those that pulled him out. What did he say, “Ignorance is Bliss”? He missed being a member of the Club and enjoying its privileges.
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Sharina, I don’t think his tweets are wishy washy. It’s a way of expressing mixed emotion about it.
*He doesn’t agree with Suey Park esp. directing the rage squarely at Colbert.
*He doesn’t agree to the cancel colbert campaign,
*He generally likes Colbert “most of the time.”
*He still felt very uncomfortable about the Colbert joke (he did not like the Ching Chong stuff either (ie, WTF). I personally cannot think of a single scenario where it is appropriate to use that term, so for me, it might as well be a Ch-word. I had many very bad, even violent experiences with it, even well into adulthood in the workplace.)
*He condemns the way people are attacking Suey Park or trying to silence her.
*Suey Park’s campaign has some problem with it (ie, Michelle Malkin).
*He asks why Asians are the go-to punchline for racist jokes.
It is basically how I feel.
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GR, I think you’re just blind to the whiteness that has been pulled over your eyes.
It’s not a blank slate. It’s like culture. If you grow up in a culture, it’s invisible to you. You only notice it if the norm is switched on you all of a sudden, You would have to be dropped blindfolded into some place like Xinjiang or Tibet and you would notice that you suddenly are forced to navigate to another set of rules.
Example: My mother told me of her experience, dating and marrying my Dad. She started to learn what it was like to be refused service at restaurants, to be refused housing, have people, esp. white men, hurl violent threats at her, have someone attack your home because they do not like you. She had never experienced anything like that growing up, even though such things happened all the time in her home town. She had to learn to navigate to a new norm as she lost a huge chunk of white privilege. But, she still hung on to the bits that were important to her. Her philosophy was to try to get at least marginal privileges back into the white club, and suggested that I do the same. I think her clinging to white privilege and exerting it in front of her husband was actually one of the things that helped the marriage to decline and eventually fail.
It’s a choice. A choice that can become a habit, but nevertheless a choice.
Did you look at the link at all? Read it. You really think it is fluff? If so, then you must think all of Abagond’s blog is pretty much fluff.
You are either choosing cluelessness or starting to troll. If the latter, I will not continue it.
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George Ryder
Explain to me when I have ever detailed to you my anti-racist reasoning? Because I have never said or implied whites people are blank slates.
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Jefe
Perhaps wishy washy is the wrong term for it and is faulty in that I was looking for him to choose a side. He actually shares my feelings except I never look at colbert and probably care much less about him. On the other hand I don’t find myself passionate about park either and from her twitter she seems to talk sh*t regularly. Though like you I really do not feel anyone should be telling her what not to be angry about. I think that is the annoying part and while people are saying she yells and screams at people who disagree etc. It really does not excuse the death and rape threats she received.
Any in all seriousness. ..why are Asians the go to punchline in jokes? I notice it but I don’t understand why.
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@Sharina,
Yep, sure enough. Where in tarnation did this “blank slate” thing come from?
That is precisely the question we should be asking now.
At this point, we might have more questions than answers, but I tried to summarize this in the other post thread.
White liberals know that there is something offensive (or at least not quite respectful) about it and it is race related – that is the point of the jokes. But the racism does not offend their sensibilities like racist slurs towards blacks and jews do. It is as if they are not quite human.
It could also be related to the Model Minority stuff – the price for being an honorary white.
Now, I think white conservatives interestingly might be less likely to make the racist Asian jokes as much as White liberals. They simply treat them as foreigners. They still indirectly imply some of the racist stuff towards blacks though. And they invoke the Model Minority stuff to justify their racism towards blacks.
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@GR, only you are calling it bs. None of the other regular commenters will call this “whiteness” stuff “bs”.
Maybe you can try to read up more on it. You still fly off into tangents.
Where does this “goals” thing come from? this “other club” thing? It has nothing to do with “marry outside my race and never associate with people who look like me”. (All I said is that that is how some people learn about it, but it is not a necessary or sufficient requirement – most white men who marry Asian women nowadays remain members with little loss of privileges). I guess you still don’t know what is meant by “whiteness”. Did you read those other posts? Or do you just think it is fluff?
If indeed, you understand what whiteness is, but still want to hold on to it. That is your choice. That is what most people do. Once they enjoy those privileges, they find it very difficult to give up willingly.
Why do you come here, then, by the way? Are you trying to learn anything?
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NO, that is definitely NOT what it is.
It is not giving up one’s history or giving up where one came from. In fact, for Jewish-American or Italian-Americans, it could even involve recapturing some of the identity and history that they lost or gave up to be white.
No, it is not starting out as a blank slate. It is the choice not to feel obligated to fulfill all the duties of being a white person. It is talking about how you conduct yourself in the present and the future, not about your past identity and retaining it or not.
The only identity that would not be retained is membership in the “White Club”. Think of it as losing any club membership. It is not like you are suddenly a blank slate.
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Um mm can you call someone on their bs yet still be questioning their own understanding of what is being said?
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@ goerge Ryder
Anyone can be an effective anti racist….For white people it can be a bit complicated but wil good will it CAN be done.
1. Recognize what white supremacy is and its geopolitical and historical effects in modern day socitesties
2. Recognize that white supremacy has been a tool of CAPITALISM. Capitalism itself is not entirely a bad thing. But any economic system without checks and balances can hurt many while giving a few advantage. Before the advantaged have been along racial and sexual lines. Now in the 21st system, only the wealthy are advantaged. It’s money begets more money.
3. Call for the end to discrmination in the public arenas. Make the EEOC more effective. Discrimination is harder to prove in court for a reason: to advantage/protect corporations and white supremacy.Now its true that any nutcase can run around screaming discrimination. Panels should be put in place to look at he merits of the cases. Cses of wrongful mistreat emnt should be prosecuted to the fullest extent with severe penalites for such actions.
4. Small business grants and low interest loans to minority companies and start ups to help them grow. The mentor system and connections has helped white owned business..then something should be put in place for everone else. These bsinesses could employ more people no matter ethnicity..a healthier economy for everyone.
More later
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I don’t think you can give up whiteness. For people whoe are at the border of whiteness, those who can pass as white and groups that are sometimes considered white, that might be possible by actively identifing as one or the other. But for “under-any definition-white” whites that would be comical. As long as others see me as white, I can’t be non-white.
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I’m a terrible typist…anyway whites can be antiracists too….. and they SHOULD because they live in this world too. They just have to realize that this white privilege thing ultimately hurts WHITES TOO! Now it’s brining EVERYONE DOWN economically
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Kartoffel
That just means you don’t know what whiteness means and it has nothing to do with skin color. I thought that once until it was explained to me.
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George
If I remember correctly Matari did explain it, but since you believe it was not then I will ask you this. …..do you regularly need people to explain how you make changes in your life? Does one shoe fit all if a person did care to explain this Change to you? I hope both answers are no. If not then no even with a step by step guide I am not sure your efforts would be little more than superficial.
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George Ryder
I doubt that is the point, but you have picked up the habit of switching foot. Above you stated “white you’ll likely have to explain to them how and why they should do it.” And at a earlier time “then give whites absolutely no specifics as to how they would do that.”
From those statements it appears you are asking how to give up whiteness (step ny step instructions) and not ” to explain what they mean and why an individual should want to do so.” Which you are later trying to claim. So I have to ask if you even know what it is you are looking for?
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There is no game and if there is one I will be Frank and sat you are the one playing it.
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And while I am being Frank I will say I don’t think you are as naive as you pretend to be.
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@ jefe:
But, please tell me, if Asians were not chosen as the target for this joke, what group could have been chosen? What group should have been chosen?
There is a reason why Colbert chose Asian-Americans racial epithets to do his satire.
Undoubtedly Asians are a safer target than blacks. But I don’t have a problem with that. The history of white-black relations is so much more loaded than white-Asian relations. There is no racist term against Asians that is quite the equivalent in offensiveness to some words used against blacks. The worst is probably “g00k”, but Colbert didn’t go there, and I’m sure that was a line he wouldn’t have crossed. “Ching chong” is just not at that level. “Ching chong ding dong” is so childish and ridiculous that it is almost inherently satirical. Some people find “Oriental” to be a slur, but it’s really just an outdated term.
Have you read the blog post by Ask a Korean? I really recommend it, and I think it nails the whole Colbert issue better than anything else I’ve read:
http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/against-hashtag-warriors.html
But, should she be silenced because some disagree with her? No.
Well, I dunno if she should “be silenced”, but she should just shut up about things that she doesn’t quite understand. I know she thinks she is doing a service for the Asian community, but it’s not. She’s making Asian-American concerns look trivial. There have been lots of incidents of racism that Asians should campaign against; Colbert is not even close to being one of them. By concocting outrage about every trivial thing, she reduces the impact of outrage about things of real concern.
The real winner out of this has been the Right, (such as Michelle Malkin) who can just sit back and laugh while the extreme left (Park and co) and the moderate left (Colbert, HuffPo, etc) tear chunks out of each other.
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Jefe
I personally have always thought the constant need to make Asians the go to punchlines in jokes was because they were viewed as safe. People tend to believe they will take whatever comes and not complain.
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@ George Ryder
George, the fist step to “giving up Whiteness” is to accept that it doesn’t really exist. There is no universal White culture. There is no genetic White “race” made up of all the people in the world who have pale skin. But then, you also have to realize that there is no such thing as Blackness either… not really. There is no universal Black culture, and all the people on earth with dark colored skin and tightly curled hair do not belong to the same genetic “race” either.
Therefore, things like intelligence, self discipline, talent, humor, ambition, violence, sex drive and personality, are mostly based on culture, and a bit of genetics that do not conform to the massive color-coded races we have constructed.
Once you can accept those things the rest will follow. You can stop seeing people as part of an artificial group. The only other part of it is having the courage to stand up to others who continue to discriminate based on the the old “racial” ideas. That’s it.
Are you going to please all of the dark-skinned people on the internet? No.
Are all the pale skinned people going to love you? No.
But so what?
What more do you need than that?
That’s it. There is no great secret.
Stop asking “Black people” for the answers.
They don’t have them any more than anyone else.
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Yes, George, it is about giving up whiteness, not giving up being someone of European descent. Whiteness = the culture of whiteness.
I think everyone else got it – it is no bs. Don’t call something bs because you didn’t understand it.
It is really quite simple. A white person (which can include non-whites who live and act as whites) does not take the position of supporting the culture of whiteness and in deciding how much white privilege to share with others. He joins the ones on the receiving in, in opposition to the ones who build and maintain white privilege culture and tries to dismantle it, recognizing that he may lose white privilege in the process.
An anti-racist would be trying to dismantle whiteness (a systemic change). It is not about replacing identities (where did that come from)?
Tim Wise doesn’t seem to be doing anything to dismantle the culture of whiteness. He has spent his lifetime career explaining what whiteness is (mainly to other white people who do not understand it or see it.) If he were to do something to actually dismantle whiteness, white people would probably stop paying to listen to him.
That said, Tim Wise still has value. Maybe one of the persons he is educating about whiteness will just stand up one day and decide to give it up.
This is not a logic game. I just think you do not understand what is meant by “whiteness”. Once you understand, you will realize there is no one-size-fits-all step-by-step method that is going to work for everyone.
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To King:
Jefe:
It is really quite simple. A white person (which can include non-whites who live and act as whites) does not take the position of supporting the culture of whiteness and in deciding how much white privilege to share with others.
Could you define then, the culture of whiteness and what acting white means to you…?
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@ES,
H-m-m-h. You don’t think it has anything to do with blacks becoming more vocal about it? The Model Minority stereotype was invented to quell the Asian-American voice, and erase their history – telling them that they will receive some white privileges if they just shut up. Have you actually studied white-Asian relations in the USA? The history is different, but also very loaded. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like the modern white liberal American view that buys into the Model Minority stereotype.
Have you read the US News and World Report article from 1966? Even then, whites had suggested that white-Asian relations were in some ways even “more loaded” than white-black relations. At least then they acknowledged the expulsion, the genocide, the lynching, the ethnic cleansing, the Asian exclusions, the concentration camps, etc. The whole point was that they did not see Asian-Americans protesting in the streets like blacks despite their horrific history in the USA. Maybe it was partially due to their wiping them out that there were so few left, and those few left were more afraid of being imprisoned or killed for racial reasons.
They recognized Asian-American’s violent racial past in American history in the 1960s, and then erased that memory in the 80s-90s. The kids who grew up then don’t even know about it.
“G00k” is bad. It was used to dehumanize people so that whites could kill them or otherwise do what they wanted with them. I think that the bullying, hazing, and other types of violent (and not so violent) mistreatment is connected to the g00k stereotype.
I know that you said you had heard “Ching Chong” as a child, but I experienced a very different level of it than you. For me, it is not far off from “g00k”.
Sure, I first heard it starting at 4-years old from the playground taunts. But it got much worse. First came the extended “Ching Chong Chinaman” verses. Then they used it to taunt prior to bullying. After several many years I associated “Ching Chong” as a precursor to violent attacks by groups of older boys – when I heard “Ching Chong” I would run and hide lest I get beat up and my face kicked in. (The term still can send shivers down my spine even today.) People still did Ching Ching when I was at university. After university, I was a substitute teacher in a secondary school (about 50/50 white /black) and the students treated me with Ching Chong all day long, e.g.,
A lot of the boys would start prancing around the room, hurling karate kicks and yelling out “Ching Chong, Ah-so” They told me they watch me on TV every Saturday and that’s what I was doing. Sometimes the principal or vice-principal had to come in they were so loud and unruly. Once I substituted for one of my former teachers that I was friends with. When she got back she saw it on her students’ faces – she found out that they had “ching chonged” the teacher all day long and she made them write apology letters. I received at least 200 letters and over half of them said stuff like “we didn’t mean to disrespect you just because you are a Chinaman”, “We should know better that we shouldn’t be treating foreigners like that.” “We are sorry – we didn’t realize that you might be trying to learn English.” I am an American with ancestors dating back to the Revolutionary War era. Should those letters make me feel better? Even other teachers asked me what country I came from and where I learned English. It did improve after a few months, but that was my baptismal in the workplace.
Afterwards I worked in international management consulting firms in Washington, DC and New York. AGAIN, the ching chong stuff was rampant. You would think MBA graduates and managers with 20 years’ experience would know better but . . . . They knew that Ching Chong was not a polite thing to do, but they did it anyway. They wouldn’t dare use the n-word, but they could ching chong all they want with impunity. After experiencing “ching chong” and see managers promote colleagues ahead of me, I finally decided to bite the bullet and leave the USA.
My father got “ching chong” and even “g00k” at work from his colleagues, who would play pranks on him even after he got into his 50s.
I recognize that you find “ching chong” to be some immature childish prank only, but please consider that it might mean different things to different people.
I tend to agree with Angry Asian Man more than Ask a Korean. Similar to what Abagond said, he may have got some things right but missed the mark on others. I don’t like the fact that he put the Angry Asian Man link on his post whilst AAM only agreed that #Cancel Colbert was over the top and it had problems by invoking problematic bedfellows like Michelle Malkin. Otherwise, AAM and Ask a Korean did not see eye-to-eye on many of the other points.
What is the difference between shutting someone up and silencing them? Why are people so sure that she doesn’t understand things?
You can disagree with her efficacy of her tactics, but why resort to the ad hominem of calling her “dumb”?
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@Kartoffel
Sharina told you that giving up whiteness has nothing to do with the colour of one’s skin. Do you get it yet? IT is not about becoming “non-white”.
By giving up whiteness, one still retains whatever identity they have from their ancestry or where they grew up or where they were educated. There is no oxymoron is stating that a blond-haired, blue-eyed, fair complexioned Swedish / Irish-American who grew up in suburban Indianapolis is giving up whiteness, if we define whiteness as a culture, as a religion, as a system of codes, behavior and values that govern our lives.
It is a bold thing to do. Even Tim Wise is not ready or unwilling to give up whiteness.
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Jefe:
if we define whiteness as a culture, as a religion, as a system of codes, behavior and values that govern our lives…
Then could you define whiteness for the present day and give some examples…?
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@UM,
I think Abagond basically summarized it here:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/the-white-club/)
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@ Milton
I am just curious to know how come you don’t appear to know what whiteness is yet and need clarification, after all this time, about the system of codes, behaviour and values that govern our lives..
Why does it remain mysterious or invisible to you?
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Jefe:
I think Abagond basically summarized it here..
Well I was hoping to hear your definition and thoughts on the matter not someone else’s.
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@ ES
I am late to the thread, but your take on this has me shaking my head.
You say:
Have you considered that is so because black people have a well-defined and well-defended rhetoric about what it means to TRULY OPPRESSED BY RACE? That was an “achievement” not only of sacrifice, but of activism, and visibility.
You seem to be saying the experiences of Asians was lesser and lighter, so let’s not get carried away with stupid chick’s belly-aching carry-on.
She should shut up. Cos she doesn’t understand.
Beg your pardon, ES, but how the hell do you know what she understands?
Do you know her, do you know her mind?
I really don’t know the US context well enough to say for sure, but I think Suey Park’s judgment may’ve been shaky on the Michelle Malkin thing, but a lot of 23 year olds have shaky judgment on what alliances they should pursue — it doesn’t make them dumb. It doesn’t mean they should shut up.
I was trying to find out more about this and saw her on an interview with Josh Zepp, who talked over her and dismissed her argument as “stupid”.
He wanted to humiliate her.
He needed a slap for sheer rudeness.
.
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@ Milton
I remain curious about your definition of whiteness.
Please be so kind as to give detail and do so in your own words, avoiding evasiveness if you can.
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To Bulanik:
what whiteness is yet and need clarification..
Because it seems to vary from person to person…..would you like to offer a definition..,? As for Abagond’s examples in the link Jefe posted, a few stand out.. whites do not have the longest lifespan (third) nor predominantly the safest cities with populations over 500,000 where they are the majority (Asians and/or Latinos do). Also in his link he claimed that Jews gave up their culture to become white. Not true.
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@ ES
Here is that tape showing Suey Park and Josh Zepp:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNK-e6nnFGY)
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@Bulanik, UM,
This might also help white people who are clueless about how give up whiteness while remaining white.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/growing-up-white/)
@UM,
I’ve said it and shared my thoughts hundreds of times somewhere on the blog already, and while I might not use what Abagond said word-for-word, it is close enough so that I can avoid reinventing the wheel and spending hours drafting a post of my own.
Are you asking the question because you have no clue what people are talking about? Or do you have an idea and are seeking some clarification? What would my tweaked personal definition do for you?
Maybe we do need to have courses on whiteness for white people and CNN needs to do “White in America”.
I guess it’s not too much different on how the Manchus in NE China became Han Chinese over generations. Or how a Han Chinese, after relocating to Thailand, becomes Thai. But not exactly. It is similar in the sense that it is a social and cultural norm of values and behavior.
I realized something amiss by age 13 or 14 when the American history we learned in school was all about the history of white culture and peoples.
White people will not get there by telling people that they do not see them as “black” or “Asian”, etc. That means that they see them as more or less “white”. You had no thoughts on the matter?
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UM, I think you missed the main points of Abagond’s post. You think whiteness has to do with skin colour – otherwise, you would not be citing your “not true” statistics.
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@ Milton
Because it seems to vary from person to person…..would you like to offer a definition..,?
No, but thank you for asking. Do you mean the whiteness definition is too general and has no validity because whites are individuals?
The usual stats aside, I am particularly intrigued by this comment: Jews give up their culture to become white. Not true.
I have heard that white Jews do this in the US, Europe, etc.
Ashkenazis do.
Can you elaborate about Jews and whiteness (including Ashkenazis)?
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Jefe said to Milton
Instinct tells me this is wel beyond point-missing…
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Bulanik:
I remain curious about your definition of whiteness.
I wasn’t the one using the word and no.. I am not really sure what you and Jefe mean when you refer to whiteness so that’s why I asked.
Can you elaborate about Jews and whiteness
No I can not since I don't know what whiteness means to you.
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@ Jefe
See what I mean?
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Milton, after all the years of visiting this blog and apparently reading a great many explanations still “isn’t sure” what whiteness is.
So, he relies on sophistry, little tricks of evasiveness and lots of stats instead to undermine and sneer at what PoC say.
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@ Milton
YOU said this:
Also in his link he claimed that Jews gave up their culture to become white. Not true.
How do you know that is untrue? What evidence can you show to prove that?
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Yeah, I am not going down that road.
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Jefe:
You had no thoughts on the matter?
On this board people sometimes can’t even agree on a much more widely used and defined word: racism. I have a pretty clear understanding of the word racism. (and it’s in the dictionary and as well there are many books written on the subject..) But whiteness..? Wikipedia’s entry on whiteness associates it with skin color in contrast to your definition.
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I often think there is no point to it too.
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To Bulanik:
Also in his link he claimed that Jews gave up their culture to become white. Not true. How do you know that is untrue? What evidence can you show to prove that?
Really the onus would be on Abagond to prove (or more likely Noel Ignatiev since I believe that is his source..) that Jews have given up their culture. By that does he believe that Jews in the US no declare that they are Jewish (or converted to Christianity), study the Talmud or Torah, learn Hebrew, or celebrate Jewish holidays..?
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To Jefe and Bulanik:
So, he relies on sophistry, little tricks of evasiveness and lots of stats instead to undermine and sneer at what PoC say.
I merely asked Jefe for a definition, in his response he refereed to a post by Abagond which did not even use the word whiteness. He did come closer to a working definition in a latter post…I would guess he is describing whiteness as being somewhat akin to the notion of assimilation. I will point out, I am not the only one asking on this thread.
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@ Milton
Really the onus is on you, because you said it was “Not true” that Jews gave up their culture to become white. You have to know something to refute it, do why not share it instead of evading and buck-passing.
You said it here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/suey-park/#comment-233884
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Milton, I understood what Jefe said about whiteness, yet you do not even though you have been reading and commenting on Abagond’s blog for more years before than I have…
What I want to understand is how come you can not understand what Abagond or Jefe are saying. So when merely simply asked:
You don’t appear to have told us anything at all of your personal opinion.
So why not give it a go?
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Jefe has made the effort to explain. Surely you can be taken to task as well.
That’s only fair. I should point out, that I might not be the only one with that expectation from you.
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To Bulanik:
You have to know something to refute it, ..
See my previous query as to whether Jews in the US have given up their religion, Hebrew, celebrating Jewish holidays. studying the Talmud or Torah. I see those as being part of Jewish culture and the short answer is.. no, not in my opinion (And of course Abagond was voicing his own opinion..).
Jefe has made the effort to explain.
Yes he has, somewhat, but he also said “Tim Wise has not given up whiteness…” Wise is a person who vigorously and vocally opposes racism and does not fit into the white club framework laid out by Abagond, I guess the question to Jefe would be why he thinks Tim Wise embodies whiteness and then give a few examples of white people he doesn’t think, embody whiteness.
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@ Jefe:
What is the difference between shutting someone up and silencing them? Why are people so sure that she doesn’t understand things?
I didn’t say I wanted her to be silenced, I said I wish she would shut up. There’s a difference. Just because someone has a right to speak on something doesn’t mean they should.
Also, I’m not trying to play the oppression Olympics, and I’m not trying to downplay your experiences, but I don’t think the Asian experience in America as a whole can compare with the black experience. There’s a lot of white guilt surrounding what black people have been through, which is one reason that black people are not such a safe target. This doesn’t mean that Asians should be a safe target, but there’s just not the same amount of history there for white people to feel guilty about.
Asian people ARE disrespected and made fun of with alarming ease in Western popular culture. I just don’t think this was one of those moments.
@ Bulanik:
You seem to be saying the experiences of Asians was lesser and lighter, so let’s not get carried away with stupid chick’s belly-aching carry-on.
I’m saying that the terms Colbert used are not as incendiary as some of the slurs used to insult blacks. I’m not saying they are not offensive – I’m saying that someone can observe the context he uses them in and not get offended. Not all insults carry the same weight. As I mentioned, he didn’t say “g00k” which is far more incendiary.
Case in point: why does everyone discussing this post say “the n-word” (as opposed to n1gger), yet feel no hesitation in saying “ching-chong”? Because one is more offensive than the other. “Ching-chong” must have been mentioned 100 times on this blog in the last few days, and I don’t see anyone starting up #CancelAbagond. Why not? Because people understand that it is not being said in an offensive context. Which is why so many Asian people don’t agree that Colbert was offensive.
I wish Suey Park would’ve shut up about this particular issue, because it’s a non-issue that she made into a huge drama. There are lots of issues relating to the racism that Asian-Americans face which are of legitimate concern, and I don’t believe that this is one of them. I’ve got no problem at all with some of her other endeavours such as #notyourasiansidekick.
Re: the Josh Zepp interview;
I agree he was rude. But him calling her opinion “stupid” was after she told him that he was not entitled to have an opinion on this matter because he is a white man, and says that he is minimalizing her experiences and talking over her because he is a white man.
So it’s ironic for you to ask me: “Beg your pardon, ES, but how the hell do you know what she understands? Do you know her, do you know her mind?” … when Suey Park appears to magically know the mind of Josh Zepps, based entirely on his race. He may have been rude, but he attacked her opinion, while she attacked his race.
How would you feel if you were debating an issue with someone, and they told you that you were incapable of understanding it because you are black?
Now it’s possible that Suey is right about Zepps… I don’t know because I don’t know him. Or maybe he talks over her because he is the anchor of a show and has to keep his guests from exceeding the limited time available. Maybe he’s just rude in general. But for Park to automatically point out Zepp’s race as the reason for it all – that’s kinda racist, no? I think she has done a disservice to Asian activism in general.
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@UM
No it does not. It says that the historical legal definition of whiteness has changed throughout US history and in different jurisdictions. It has never been directed associated with skin colour. For example, Chinese in Mississippi were for a long time classified as “colored”, then they got reclassified as “white” in certain areas, but still “colored” in others. Today, it is different and varies from place to place. Various European groups were not classified as white in the past.
Actually, we are not really talking about the “legal” definition of whiteness.
I explained it as as a culture, as a religion, as a system of codes, behavior and values that govern our lives. Add to that Abagond’s “accept White American culture as your guide to life. Practise it and do not question it.” It means accepting white privilege and the white hierarchical system in the USA as the norm and lead your life according to those values and principles.
It will be impossible to find statistics to prove or disprove any of this.
Whiteness is not an all or nothing thing. It is something that someone accepts or rejects to accommodate their needs. Tim Wise *DOES* question it, so he did not follow all of the rules of whiteness, but he does nothing more than acknowledging that it exists and tell this to other people. He still keeps and follows most of the rules of whiteness and admits that he benefits from doing so.
If he gave up whiteness, he would not publish the book “White Like Me”. He should have written “White Privilege and how to give it up”.
I saw them interview him after the Trayvon Martin incident. He explained how the police still accept vilification of young black males and how Stand Your Ground laws could be applied to be disproportionately disadvantageous to blacks and other POC.
BUT, did he do anything to change the situation? If knows the law is applied in racist ways, why doesn’t he get it repealed? If he believes that the police profile and vilify black men, why doesn’t he actually go and find the worst offending districts, do a good study that fulfills his requirements, change the officer training program and have the police chiefs fired for implementing racist practices?
It will be difficult to ally with him to combat white racism if he is still wedded to the idea of accepting whiteness and not replacing it with a new paradigm.
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@ES
Yep. And they do not feel guilt about what they did to Asians in their country.
I wish they would just stop feeling guilty full stop.
In many aspects, it is even much worse. They ethnic cleansing was much worse. The mass imprisonment solely because of race was worse. They discuss the African slave trade and ignore the coolie trade that was established to replace it, etc. etc.
But what is really worse is how people do not want to talk about anything because they would rather simply erase it and hide behind the Model Minority stereotype.
Native Americans – we don’t have to go into what happened there. But there is surely a lot LESS white guilt about that too.
But I also do not want to make any comparison. If you say you are not going to play Oppression Olympics, then don’t compare whose experience is “worse”. It detracts from the point.
If that is the case, why is it taboo to use Jewish slurs for illustration?
To me, Ching Chong is serious, very close to g00k, and I don’t replace it with the “Ch-word” because it is not moderated on this board. I do not see any situation where it is reasonable for people to use Ching Chong in public discourse (except maybe as a parody to other people who do).
I suppose you think I am just being stupid.
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@ ES
why does everyone discussing this post say “the n-word” (as opposed to n166er), yet feel no hesitation in saying “ching-chong”?
Everyone has NOT used those words.
And even though some commenters may have, how do you know that they have felt no hesitation or some inner conflict about its use?
I have written down many words, in repeating a phrase someone else used, and thought better of it afterwards…haven’t you? When I was a child it was normal to call people like me “paki”. I used to hear words like “half-caste” or “poof” to describe people as well. Maybe they are no longer fashionable because someone said something.
I get what you’re saying, even though I haven’t read the whole thread.
The words could be used ONE MILLION times, it doesn’t change the negative experience of having the words told you before you are battered, or some such.
I haven’t used those words to describe East Asians, because I’ve seen how little racialized words that some people think are okay don’t apply across the board.
When you say you’re not downplaying the experience of others…isn’t that what you are doing, though, because it doesn’t bother? That’s you.
Some people it bothers and some it doesn’t.
Because there is not an overwhelming consensus — does it make someone stupid and should shut their mouth because it is not everyone’s experience?
In fact, I’ve met a few people who don’t see what all the fuss about the “N” word is about. They don’t care. They don’t see it as “racism”, racism to them is what happens in their life, not if they are the butt of jokes, or a bit of bullying; it’s only a word and people use it normal life, so, so what?
Surely: words DEVELOP cultural opprobrium?
On another thread about “Southern Belles” the novel “Gone with the Wind” was mentioned, and I remember reading bits of it and it’s dripping with the “n” word, but that’s how people spoke and no one thought anything about it.
Look how resistant some white people are about using the “n” word however they want, whenever they want: What a fuss about nothing, I mean really! they say.
What about sp00k? Some people think that’s a cute little word for a ghost.
When Sartre talks about g00k, and g00kiness (In his book “Being and Nothingness”) he makes it a way of expressing disgust, but he doesn’t use in a way which is racial as such, and he gets away with it. But, there are “troublemakers” (as they were called), who spoke up and said it was slur for East and Southeast Asians, and I remember the response to it, too: oversensitive and making a drama out of nothing, attention-seeking.
I supppose because there was an association with the Vietnamese and the war with the US, and as time passed, it became a Serious Word.
Like a lot of multi-racial Asians, I’ve been called a lot of things, but I don’t understand every other person’s experience just because I am part this or that. Being brown or black doesn’t make me all-knowing.
However, I do trust myself. There are many things white men do not understand about the common experiences of Woc, and when I watched the interview, Zepp was trying to shame and embarrass Suey Park and he was using dropping it on her the way I have seen white men behave around WoC many, many, many times. He wasn’t just being an anchor, he was pulling rank on her in a way which had a “tone” I’ve seen and heard over and over.
So it kind of seemed a bit precious of him to be slap her down after she stuck up for herself.
Moreover, I had the distinct impression Zepp thought she and her opinion was “stupid” long before the interview began…and wanted any damn reason to slap her down.
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ES said:
I don’t think the Asian experience in America as a whole can compare with the black experience.
You’re spot on, Jefe.
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George
If You Are Writing a book you choose a Catchy title. So that is not proof he did or did not let go of his whiteness.
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Uncle milton
I usually respect you ability to be honest and forth right, but I am quite disappointed in your most recent display.
You said: Wikipedia’s entry on whiteness associates it with skin color in contrast to your definition.
No it does not. It actually says: Whiteness studies is an interdisciplinary arena of academic inquiry focused on what proponents describe as the cultural, historical and sociological aspects of people identified as white, and the social construction of whiteness as an ideology tied to social status.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies
As we highly know there are many different people who could and do identify themselves as white and thus hold a certain set of ideas with it, but there are also people of color who hold those same ideas and they can not identify as white.
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George
Read what you write sometimes before submitting and most if not all confusion will be avoided.
You stated: “If he gave up whiteness, he would not publish the book “White Like Me”. He should have written “White Privilege and how to give it up”.
So you don’t like the word proof them replace it with something else, but guess what? It changes NOTHING I said.
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George
Then might I suggest quotation marks and redirect you again to what I said above.
“Read what you write sometimes before submitting and most if not all confusion will be avoided.”
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Jefe
Although I can clearly say Tim Wise is an irrelevant individual in my life I would say White Like Me could be considered a catchy title. So, again I say, that is not proof that he did or did not let go of whiteness.
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@Sharina
Yes, it is a catchy, trying to gain from the book title “Black Like Me” by John Griffin from the late 50s/early 60s.
I have not read “White Like Me”, but I watched hours of Tim Wise videos after Abagond posted some of his posts, and have been following a few things he did since. I also just watched an hour video today introducing the contents of “White Like Me”. But basically, the messages are similar:
– Whites are born with a racial privilege
– The R-word has become a taboo word among whites
– Being colour-blind does not end racism any more than being blind to Physically/mentally challenged people will end discrimination against disabled people or being blind to gender will end sexism.
– Being colour-blind does not end racial profiling
– Deciding whether people “fit” in your organization, your school, your neighborhood is about the most subjective criteria you can use
– Even if you focus on merit, you have no idea how far forward, or how far back someone had to start before they came within your sphere of consideration. The top candidate evaluated at that point might not be the most qualified.
– You can have the best intent to avoid being racist, yet act in a way that would reflect racism.
etc.
The target audience is obviously white people. White people who think they are not racist suddenly get their horizons widened. Most POC do not need this kind of education.
But Tim Wise never advocated dismantling the system. Maybe he thinks by educating white people, the system will magically disintegrate. I am sure through his work, he has identified some institutionalized racism that could be addressed and attacked, but I don’t know if he has joined any victims of institutionalized racism in fighting or dismantling the system.
That is why POC anti-racists might not find him an ally. And by saying that he, today, is still enjoying white privilege (or maybe even worse, he is aware that he is and continues to do it) suggests that he has not and is not willing to let go of that. His job depends on him remaining “white”.
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Jefe,
Perhaps you might provide a helpful template for George and others by sharing how you identified, confronted, and repudiated your own Chinese Privilege while living in Asia.
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@Bulaink: You are on point and on the money.
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To Randy:
Perhaps you might provide a helpful template for George and others by sharing how you identified, confronted, and repudiated your own Chinese Privilege while living in Asia.
Jefe is of Japanese/white descent so I don’t see how he has or ever had Chinese privilege. That said, since he and others have said whites in the US should give up their whiteness (and saying Tim Wise has not..) I think it is reasonable ask for some examples of whites who have given up their whiteness.
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Uncle Milton
Are you looking for famous people or average Joes? If we want to speak of average Joes then i know a few that have done this and what they have done to achieve this, but like I told George what works for one does not work for all.
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@ Randy,
Now you have me wondering how you identified, confronted and repudiated your white AND American privilege when you were in the continent of Asia?
Were you deferred to? Since both you and Jefe are Americans, I wonder which one of you would experience most privilege? Just curious.
I’ve been seeing more and more reports like this:
(My parenthesis)
And funny, too, that you should talk about Chinese privilege in Asia.
Asia is such a big place, and as far as India goes — and as you know, India is a very, very big Asian population, Randy — they mostly get along, don’t they?
It wouldn’t be true to say that the Chinese have privilege in India, would it?
I say “mostly get along”, because Asians are known to have disputes, wars and skirmishes at times. Did you find that the Indians deferred to you as well?
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Jefe
Very interesting. I just thought of him as the white guy that says what blacks already knew.
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George
I think (and this is what I gathered from what I learned/understand) that there is a difference between an anti racist and giving up whiteness (an idea). One can be anti racist and hold firmly to the ideas of whiteness.
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To Sharina and Jefe:
Sharina said:
You said: Wikipedia’s entry on whiteness associates it with skin color in contrast to your definition.
I was using:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States
As for the Wikipedia entry on whiteness studies, it does not inform me how to identify a white person who has given up whiteness or a non-white person who is practicing whiteness.
Jefe said:
No it does not. It says that the historical legal definition of whiteness has changed throughout US history and in different jurisdictions.
Note where I asked for present day definition in my initial query:
I am aware that the strange workings of the Jim Crow era apparently would have classified George Zimmerman as black and Japanese American internees in Arkansas in 1943 as white.That’s why I specifically asked for his thoughts on what currently constituted whiteness.
Perhaps Jefe could do a guest post on the subject.
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To Sharina:
Are you looking for famous people or average Joes?
Either one if you so choose…famous people would probably require less explanation since information about them would be widely available. Also someone living in the modern era so the process of giving up whiteness could be applied now.
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Uncle Milton
“it does not inform me how to identify a white person who has given up whiteness or a non-white person who is practicing whiteness.”—I don’t remember giving you the idea that I aimed to provide you with examples or tell you how to identify one who has given up whiteness or non-whites who practice it. Though I clearly remember the dispute being the definition of what is meant by whiteness.
In your Wikipedia source that was provided, it does not appear to associate whiteness with skin color. for example your source says “David R. Roediger argues that the construction of the white race in the United States was an effort to mentally distance slaveowners from slaves.” The whole source itself does not mention or makes an attempt to define the term whiteness but rather seeks t point out groups that can identify as white and the complexities with it in their countries and such.
“Also someone living in the modern era so the process of giving up whiteness could be applied now.”—I don’t usually bring up old dead people as an example to anything so your point is? Those missionaries in our church that have served in other countries (usually poorer ones) are examples of people that I feel have given up their whiteness. Mainly because they were in situations where they relied on those individuals for their life and being with those individuals for years at a time learned to rely on them and grow in their way of life. Learn of their hardships and struggles and returned with fresh eyes. Like I said…it is not something for everyone.
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George Ryder
You are struggling with defining whiteness yet you believe john brown gave up his whiteness? Giving up your life is not a sign you gave up your whiteness.
“if John Brown isn’t an example of a white anti-racist there is no such thing.”—I never said he was not an example of a white anti-racist. What I said is one can be ant-racist and still hold on to whiteness. Once you realize there is actually a difference between the two then you will see where I am going with this.
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Sharina,
You might find this video interview with Tim Wise after his “White Like Me” documentary came out. (29:25)
He discusses concepts like “whiteness”, white privilege and white denial of racism.
(http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/provocative-documentary-explores-white-privilege-/51c476e0fe34444db000049b)
But he mentions nothing about how to dismantle the white privilege system in the USA. Apparently he thinks that it will disintegrate on its own as whites become a proportional smaller proportion of the population.
However, whites have become a smaller proportion of the population for the past 4 decades, and if anything, institutionalized racism has gotten worse and through colour-blind racism, white privilege is just as strong as ever.
He also admits that he is still pro-white @13:10 – 13:20 by implying that you can be an anti-racist without giving up whiteness.
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@Randy,
As a multiracial person, I don’t enjoy this at all. In fact, I find that I am often denied both the privilege that white (or Westerners) enjoy in Asia as well as the Chinese (to the extent that either group enjoys some privilege).
Anyhow, I think that there is such a thing as “Han” privilege in China – there is incredible pressure in China to conform, obey and not to offend the majority ethnic group. I am not sure what Randy means by “Chinese privilege” unless he is talking about the places outside mainland China that have Chinese majorities, with other minorities (e.g., Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan and Singapore, etc.). There is another phenomenon going on in Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. that is unique to each place).
One thing I did find here – more freedom to be myself. As a multiracial person in Asia, I am not really expected to conform to either local Asian (be that Chinese or other Asian) or white western norms (there are exceptions of course). In the USA, I felt incredible pressure to do everything not to offend white people, to deny what I am, to copy and assume white people’s beliefs and attitudes, to endure all of their offensive behavior, just to try to get ahead. Many Asian-Americans flatly refused to believe that I experienced all of that (maybe even more than they did) and I didn’t have a strong enough family background to cushion me against that, so I decided to take a leap of faith and leave.
I do think that monoracial Asians with a single ethnic background but who were born and raised in western countries or otherwise extremely westernized will face some different kind of challenges in Asia. Local Asians will find them way too westernized to feel comfortable with them, and to whites, they “act” more acceptably to them, but still look too much like the despised local majority. (I apologize for using the strong term “despise” – just cannot think of a better term to mean “viewed in a less favourable light – maybe “looked down upon”?). They might feel compelled to form their own westernized Asian enclaves if they find they need a psychological respite from both local Asians and whites. Otherwise, they will feel forced to conform to either white expectations or local Asian expectations.
So, it seems that I have some tools to navigate the racial dynamics that are not open to white people or monoracial Asians. Or maybe I should say I am forced to use them.
When I was working in Hong Kong prior to and up to 1997, I was appalled at how colonialist the British were. I remember having a drink with a Korean-American client and some of her Asian-American friends, and the discussion came up about how incredibly racist the British were. “They do stuff here that would get them fired in the USA.” That was back in 1997.
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BTW, the reply above was intended to be a serious and respectful reply.
I failed to mention that I really felt that Randy asked a very ridiculous question, which gives me the impression that he does not know much about the racial dynamics in Asia. We already know that he has a convoluted view of race relations in the USA.
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Some month ago is saw in Show in chinese TV. The young womena acted so strange. And suddenly I understood: they tried to look black. They didn’t try to look white but black.
They had very high high-heels and moved in a certain way. Both obviously with the intention to make it look as if they had “booty”, which they as east asians simply do not have.
My only explanation for this behaviour is that in western countries people of westafrcian ancestry are the most rspected persons and when people get in difficult situations – like moderating in front of thousands of people – people in western countries fall in into a behaviour which somehow simulates being black. And as people of european ancestry are the most respected in east asia, they imitate a lot of thing westerners do, as good as they can. Thus they imitate blacks, because whites do it.
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Jefe,
Mine was a serious question. Thank you for the reply.
In the Philippines and other parts of SE Asia, it’s not hard to notice that the ethnic Chinese dominate in business. I’ve heard numerous Filipinos ascribe their success to ethnic/racial factors. By the common definition of the term, it would seem reasonable to call that “privilege”.
I’ve also observed, and have heard described, the benefits which often accrue to Hapas, socially and economically. Additionally, expats of any ethnicity from any wealthy nation, be they from Korea, the US, or elsewhere, wield significant privilege.
As you’ve no doubt observed, many expats can and do move there to live a highly privileged lifestyle, with domestic servants and unending romantic opportunities basically on tap.
Given that you advocated others to surrender their privilege, it seemed appropriate to suggest that you yourself are the beneficiary of some types. In doing so, the question of how to identify and repudiate privilege, or even if it’s a reasonable request, might be further examined.
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Bulanik:
I didn’t.
Bulanik:
I don’t know about “deferred to”, but I was certainly the recipient of more forward attention from ladies than I would expect back home.
Bulanik:
Probably me, since I likely stick out more. But being “more privileged” by some quantifiable measure wouldn’t seem to absolve anyone else of denying their own privilege, if they believe that it’s an important thing to do.
But is it a worthwhile thing to do?
“Privilege”, by the definition commonly used here, is ultimately the sum of genetic, economic, political, social, geographic, and educational advantages which may have accrued over thousands of years.
I used to consider that privilege came in 2 forms: earned and unearned. If you were born into a certain social caste, that was unearned privilege. If you worked hard to achieve a goal, that was earned privilege.
But from whence does “earned privilege” arise? Ultimately, those are the sum of “unearned” genetic, economic, geographic, and political privileges (not to mention dumb luck) extending back into the mists of time.
When viewed in this holistic fashion, the exercise of repudiating one’s many “privileges” seems a pointless and debasing exercise. Perhaps a more useful attitude is to simply treat all people with basic dignity and respect.
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@Randy,
You are all over the place with your discourse, sometimes it is difficult to knw what you are talking about. Or maybe you just have confounded a few things together.
I did not “advocate” that whites give up whiteness. I know it’s not going to happen, at least for 99.99% of them. A few, guided by principles, may. I just quoted what a few of the POC anti-racists were saying when they felt that a white anti-racist was an oxymoron. What would be needed for the white anti-racist to become an ally to the POC anti-racist movement (for those particular POC activists in question) would require them to give up their whiteness, at least to a particular extent, meaning that they would no longer be recognized as an ally to other whites. It might be difficult for a white person to give up 100% of their whiteness, but they would have to give up a large portion of their whiteness to be perceived as an ally to those activists.
John Brown was condemned by whites as a madman and lost his life for it. He broke the white code.
Booker T. Washington still tried to appeal to whites (ie, appeal to the white power, political social and cultural structure or embracing “whiteness”), thinking that working within the white system and trying to accommodate it would bring better results for “Negroes”. In hindsight, his approach did have some limited successes (e.g., opening of black institutions of higher learning), but in general, racism got worse under that approach. He was embracing whiteness, not rejecting whiteness.
Jim Zwerg of the Freedom riders, the whites who joined the sit-ins and the men murdered in Mississippi (Andrew Goodman, and Michael “Mickey” Schwerner) all gave up acceptance in the white club to join hand-in-hand with the civil rights disobedience activists and either died for their efforts or suffered permanent injuries or were at least ridiculed by the white cultural establishment for their efforts. They offended white sensibilities by their actions.
Now, race realists disagree with Tim Wise. But Tim Wise really hasn’t gotten to the point of offending white sensibilities by his actions. Sure, his action has some value – reminding white people that Americans are not living in a post-racial colour-blind society by any stretch of the imagination. But he seems to believe that white people, sooner or later, will have to sit down at the table with the other people to forge the future of the democratic nation. Their continued unquestionable dominance is (“naturally”) coming to an end (per Wise).
I actually am not so sure about this. There were many societies with white minorities which maintained white social and political dominance.
The POC anti-racists might not all agree either that the era of white social and political dominance in America is coming to an end anytime soon. So, they might not all find easy common ground with Tim Wise’s approach.
I really don’t know why people start to get this “all or nothing” approach to all of this. “Whiteness” is more a social and cultural system and is practiced. What Abagond calls “Rented Negroes” is probably referring to the concepts of blacks embracing “whiteness” as the way to conduct their lives.
Conversely, whites could reject “whiteness” as a system by which they conduct their lives. 99.99% will not be motivated to do it, but it is a choice.
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Let’s talk about the Philippines (in generalities, of course) first. The other countries in SE Asia are a different case and take a different approach to their Chinese minority issues.
The tendency of Chinese to dominate in certain business and academic spheres in the Philippines is not really specifically due to something that we can call “Chinese privilege” per se. It is more akin to the domination in certain business and academic spheres in the USA by, say, Jewish-Americans. They had that social network both before and after they were classified as “white”. It is formed by the social network that people formed in their educational and industrial background that they can tap into to gain contacts and resources. This does exist in certain other non-Jewish white circles in the USA, e.g., various types of good ole boy networks (New England Prep schools, ivy league universities, Southern plantation owners, etc.). They don’t even have to be rich ones. When my father was a member of the electrical workers union, the couple thousand members in the DC chapter were largely “good ole boys” from working class families that had migrated up to DC from the South.) They use the network to find jobs or get people to help them.
In the USA, even Chinese-Americans or Korean-Americans can form these social networks. For example, if they cannot get a loan from the bank, they can tap into the network to find alternative sources.
The Chinese in the Philippines is like that too. They share family ties and form their social networks which may give access to contacts or share resources or information. I went to Xiamen, Fujian last month (epicenter for the ancestral homelands for many Filipino Chinese), and saw many businesses there that were opened by Filipino Chinese, including the hotel I stayed in – their familial and linguistic ties helped them forge a relationship to that part of China and helped them form business relationships. Taiwanese also do that too. Now a non-Chinese Filipino might be able to tap into those networks too – by going to the same schools as the Chinese Filipinos, but marrying a Chinese Filipino, by learning Hokkien dialects and Mandarin and joining some of the existing organizations. It might be possible. It happens.
It is also quite common that a Filipino with Chinese ancestry might forgo some or all that connection, especially if they become very assimilated into non-Chinese society. Many Filipinos do not identify with their Chinese ancestry.
These social networks will always exist.
This is NOT what is meant by White Privilege as we discuss the term in the USA. White privilege is not merely a social networking system that some people have easy access to (because they were raised in it), or that they consciously make efforts to tap into. It is a codified system of behaviors, values and beliefs that confers benefits to those people who enjoy it, and penalizes those who don’t. It is not the same as the “Chinese Filipino” network. For it to work for the Chinese Filipino case, we would have to have the whole system to support it. For example, we would have to have Police stop and frisk non-Chinese Filipinos and leave Chinese Filipinos (ie, those that they suspect to be) alone. We would have to expect Chinese Filipinos to get better service in stores, and in relevant cases, the benefit of the doubt (where it is not sure whether they did something right or wrong).
Given the level of corruption in the Philippines, some of this could be accomplished by corruption practices, e.g., If a large residential complex is being built and many of the property owners are ethnic Chinese, they might try to bribe the inspectors and the utility and phone companies to speed up the connection of phone and power and sewage lines.
There is some aspect of mistreatment towards Chinese, or of even perceived connection to Chinese. Non-Filipinos might target someone perceived to be Chinese Filipino for kidnapping, for example, because they are perceived to come from a family with money. Because of this, Filipinos will spend money for private drivers, body guards, security systems, etc. as they do not have faith that the public system will protect them.
White privilege in the USA does not mean access to a social network’s resources and information. It means the automatic, but common everyday benefits (or lack of mistreatment) conferred to people who are perceived to be “white” or at least more “white” than people they perceive not to be white. I could see how an Asian-American or black American could plant into a white person’s mind that they are similar or not really different from white people. (That is when they hear stuff as, “I don’t even think of you a black (Asian)”.
I mean, do Chinese Filipinos go around telling non-Chinese Filipinos that they don’t even think of them as being something other than Chinese? I dunno, maybe. I have seen Filipinos of Chinese descent give up their Chinese identity, however.
I don’t have any automatic access to the Chinese Filipino social network. I am not raised in that network, do not live there (at least most of the time) and my ancestral background is not similar to theirs. However, I could conceivably envision that were I in the Philippines, I might look for a way to tap into it somewhat. I might have to learn Hokkien and figure out how to penetrate some of the networks. I don’t know how far I could get. But however far I got might confer some advantages over not having any. There might be some networks composed of mixed American / Filipino families that I might see if I could tap into also. Who knows (have to be there to find out).
I did not get any automatic acceptance into either of my parents’ groups in the USA either. A lot more rejection, actually. At least it was not automatic – as someone who is perceived to be from outside the system. But, I decided that I would not sell my soul just to scrape out a couple little extra tidbits of white privilege. I don’t know, it is just, so, oppressive.
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@ Randy,
When I first saw your question, I did not consider it serious, truth be told.
I felt the intention was to “expose” Jefe as a beneficiary of the very thing he and others have been examining, with an aim to empty out his argument by turning it back on him.
I asked you how YOU deal with your white male and American privilege in South East Asia or East Asia? Apart from it manifesting as an unprecedented sex-appeal and popularity among South East Asian women, repudiating your White Privilege in South East Asia would be a “pointless and debasing” thing to attempt. Better to treat others with respect.
Well and good, but isn’t your premise mistaken?
An Asian American does not have the privilege of a white, Euro American either there OR in the US.
Jefe says:
(My parenthesis.)
If memory serves, there was a fairly similar example of this question about privilege with Kwamla, who was critical of anti-black racism.
In that case, you proposed to Kwamla that he probably had Bantu ancestry. This being so, wasn’t he a beneficiary of the Bantu Expansions (a supposedly violent land-theft by one African ethnicity against others in Africa)? so who was Kwamla to talk about white people’s violence and land-theft…As it turned out Kwamla does not not Bantu ancestry, and the so-called Bantu Expansions were not at all as you proposed.
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@GR,
I probably would not try to pick a fictional example in a story written by a white person, and not a “white savior” version at that. The character played by Kevin Costner fulfills that white savior role that would appeal to white audiences – one that shows them that the non-white people need the help of white people to get out of their predicament.
They are not an ideal example of someone who gives up whiteness.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/mighty-whitey/)
I think the people I picked would make better examples.
Most people who give up whiteness do not make the national news unless something bad happens to them.
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This conversation is just getting ridiculous. A half white dude (with his other half from privileged Chinese stock apparently) who feels like he doesn’t fit in telling people how “oppressive” the system is and how they need to give up their whiteness. I have met a lot of mixed kids who are not self-hating in this way…
Chinese and Jews with their networks and better life results are somehow off limits, because we need to focus on gentile whites, even if they make less money on average, have worse health, die earlier, etc…
So whites go from 90% of the US population in 1965 to 30% of the population in 2065 after unprecedented immigration reform and voluntarily allowing massive illegal immigration to continue. Do we need to also give up our majorities in Europe, Canada and Australia and eventually die out? Do we have the right to have a permanent majority population anywhere? If so, how could that ever be accomplished without severe “racist” immigration restrictions (like those in place in Japan or Korea)?
But instead of asking these questions, we need to think about giving up our whiteness, because we are such meanies, and the civilization we created is so terrible… yeah, of course.
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Biff
The only ridiculous comment came from you . Jefe is not half Chinese.
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@ Sharina
I ,myself, could have made the gaffe that Biff just made. On the China thread I mentioned to Jefe that I was not clear about his (ethnic and racial) background, though I did not ask him outright for clarification. Jefe, may I ask now: what is your racial/ethnic background?
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@Jefe I read your posts and links but I’m still not sure if I grasp the concept of “giving up whiteness”.
Would white radical muslim convertites count as such. They certainly are viewed as “one of them”, not properly western and due to their obviously muslim attire won’t get white privilege from others.
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@ Biff
…voluntarily allowing massive illegal immigration to continue.
What do you mean “voluntarily”? The State is de facto turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants from the south? Even if that’s true, the State’s de facto policies are not necessarily okay with the population.
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@ Biff
A civilization built on Native land with Black slave labour and an Asian brain drain. Without us you would be living in the slums of Europe.
If you want to hold on to your whiteness, you will need to produce enough of your own nurses, engineers, maids, migrant labourers – and babies! After 2020 more Whites in the US will be dying than being born. Immigration will have to increase just to make up for that.
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Legion
You could have but he made such gaffe several posts after uncle Milton said he was half Japanese and without clearly asking jefe himself. I have never know you to jump to such clear cut conclusions without further inquiry.
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George
The problem is not so much being white or classifying as white as it is believing and engaging in whiteness (the idea).
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@Kartoffel
First of all, let me be clear that I was never advocating that any MUST do this. It was a response to how the POC anti-racists who do not see most white anti-racists as allies unless they are willing to give up “whiteness” first.
I *understood* their point, but it did not mean that advocate that everyone go out and do it, which is not going to happen anyhow.
But it is certainly possible to do it, but there is no one-size-fits-all step by step procedure that will work for everyone.
Abagond once posted a procedure that he got from Beverly Tatum.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/growing-up-white/)
I don’t think my mother really got past stage 3, but I do think it is possible.
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Bulanik:
I appear to have incorrectly attributed the “repudiation demand” comment to Jefe, but it’s presented often enough to be worth addressing.
In summary, most of us here reading this blog are exceedingly privileged along a great many dimensions. Also, we’re nearly all likely to have descended from people who slaughtered, enslaved, and drove out other groups, perhaps innumerable times over and again.
For one group of highly privileged descendants of genocide to demand that another slightly more privileged group of descendants of genocide renounce this “delta” of difference seems rather arbitrary.
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Abagond:
I’m not sure how this addresses Biff’s claim that some groups are asked to renounce their cooperative group affiliation but other more successful groups are not.
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Jefe
I did not need you to tell me what you are half of as it is not my business.
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Legion said: “What do you mean “voluntarily”? The State is de facto turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants from the south? Even if that’s true, the State’s de facto policies are not necessarily okay with the population.”
–Yes and yes, but if both political parties desperately want Hispanic votes, then apparently it doesn’t matter what the majority of the current population thinks..
Abagond said:
A civilization built on Native land with Black slave labour and an Asian brain drain. Without us you would be living in the slums of Europe.
–All of us are descendents of conquering peoples (survival of the fittest). Maybe you can do a story on how U.S. colonization would have totally failed if we didn’t have blacks to pick cotton or Chinese to build railroads.
Abagond also said:
If you want to hold on to your whiteness, you will need to produce enough of your own nurses, engineers, maids, migrant labourers – and babies! After 2020 more Whites in the US will be dying than being born. Immigration will have to increase just to make up for that.
–Just like Japan and Korea will “have to” import people from Southeast Asia? It’s not possible to accept a decline in population?
Whites have lost their will to survive and U.S. policies are dysgenic. Smart women are told to work hard first and maybe (if they find the right guy) marry and have kids later. So the only ones having kids are the irresponsible and those who derive benefit from doing so (e.g., welfare, child support, etc.). It’s real life “idiocracy”, but with disturbing racial overtones.
Meanwhile, though currently U.S. black populations are relatively stable (with about half of black babies aborted) in Africa, population is expected to quadruple to 4 billion plus by the end of the century, so there will be 8-10 times as many blacks on the planet as whites.
Yet, whites need to focus on giving up whiteness now…
Kiwi:
So you couldn’t just say, yes basically I am half white and half Chinese (with a black ancestor in my distant past)? Maybe you didn’t receive special benefit from your ancestry, but you of all people should realize there are plenty of poor white people who have a terrible life outcome and no opportunities and are nonetheless told they need to abandon white privilege.
Also, you basically say you would have been aborted had it been legal, but, as a liberal, you must support legal abortion… I can see the reasons for your self-hate, and encouraging whites to “give up their whiteness” is just another manifestation of this… It’s actually sickening to me because you don’t even realize what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.
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sorry, last reference should be to jefe not Kiwi.. ha ha I know who I am used to directing my “self-hate” comments towards..
but, Kiwi, touche.. I have already given up my whiteness in that sense. I at least hope my kids won’t turn out like jefe. They will know they are wanted and loved and be taught to take advantage of all the opportunities offered to them instead of feeling like they are perpetual victims.
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@sharina, i just didn’t want u & biff to have an argument over this.
I guess I should thank him. gives me a chance to unplug for a while.
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@jefe
I would call him out on anything so this would just be another to throw on the pile. Besides why should it matter what you are or who you choose to identify as?
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Jefe
Now that you have let out all of that information does it change anything you daid? I think not. It still remains true. The only thing now is that biff will try to use it to put focus on your background rather than address or take anything you say on a serious note. Then again when has he ever. *shrugs*
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Kiwi
Lol.
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@Sharina,
Thank you.
Well, yes, I would ask why it should matter, but it seems like for 90% of the people I meet or encounter, that is the first thing they gravitate to – it seems like everyone needs to confirm that before they will even have a conversation with me. And not only in the USA, but virtually in every country I have been to. I feel as they will not let me off the hook unless I spell it out for them.
Maybe you can get an idea from this video:
(http://youtu.be/h5g6DxCzK4g)
It was done in Vancouver, BC, so I think the situation in the USA is a bit different (the USA has a much bigger Latino and middle eastern population and tends to be a bit more racist). It plays out slightly differently in the USA and the other countries, but there are some similarities.
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Sharina,
Yes, I know Biff’s tactics will use ad hominem arguments about who and what one is and other labels and not about what one has to say. That is the type person he is so it is not worth my having any conversation with him.
So, it will not change.
But by doing that, he would will only be undermining his own credibility. I am not afraid of ad hominem attacks. It will only weaken his arguments and make him appear foolish.
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@ Randy
I have very little interest in answering Biff’s claim. To me he is a borderline troll.
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@ Bulanik
I thought the same thing about Randy’s question. Jefe, though, gave an excellent answer that went beyond Randy’s simplistic view of Asia, race and ethnicity.
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Abagond
Biff is way past borderline troll.
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Jefe:
Thank you for your thoughtful and well-reasoned reply.
You’ve explained how “Chinese Privilege” in the Philippines differs from white privilege in the US. Your characterizations, which I accept at face value, appear to describe less privilege rather than no privilege.
Chinese Filipinos enjoy greater wealth and social standing than non-Chinese Filipinos. Also, observe which phenotypes predominate in movies, TV, and other mass media.
As you’ve no doubt seen, it’s mostly chinoy, mestizo, and hapa types. Consider the several ways in which favorable media portrayal is often claimed to confer bias and privilege to a favored group.
More specifically, is it not reasonable to consider that someone such as yourself, who perhaps manifests this privileged phenotype, perhaps with a Chinese surname, and almost certainly greater wealth and education than the average Filipino, is given a privilege boost in myriad (if subtle) ways?
Could your experience there not perhaps conform to the adage that we observe headwinds with far greater sensitivity than tailwinds?
Jefe:
From several local sources I’ve heard variations on the theme of Chinese Filipino boys being told by their parents, “don’t bring home a poor, dark girl”. I’ve also heard from several different sources how “Chinese blood” is superior.
This sounds rather like “privilege” and “racism” at work, even if it differs in a number of ways from an American type.
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@ Jefe
You said to Sharina, after you explained some things about your multi-racial family background:
Understand exactly what you mean.
It’s true as well, that it’s not only simple curiosity to satisfy, if one chooses to. There can be hostility, distrust, disbelief (!) and often, so often the desire to damage, silence or “extinguish” a multi-racial person for being that. 😀
Guarding oneself is usually essential. But that’s another story.
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Randy,
What you are alluding to is better termed “colourism”, which can be compared with, but is nevertheless not the same as either Ethnic Chinese social networking or white privilege (e.g., US version).
Yes, it is not hard to notice that many of the Filipinos in media, entertainment, govt, business, etc. tend to be fairer complexioned than the average Filipino. Many of them are likely part Chinese or part European, i.e., the chinoy or tisoy type. You will find a similar thing occurring in places like Thailand. You also find colourism in Mexico and Brazil and in the US also, esp. among African-Americans, but also among Asian-Americans, whites and even between various groups. Persons with lighter skin colour or more European features in the US may have some greater access to certain opportunities (e.g., a lighter-skinned black women may find more acting or modeling roles available than darker skinned ones). Likewise, some Filipinos may find certain social or occupational opportunities due to their greater perceived proportion of Chinese or European ancestry.
This is not the same as white privilege, which is not so much connected to skin colour but more about embracing whiteness (as a system) and conforming to the code of beliefs, attitudes and behaviors that support that system of whiteness.
The US has colourism, white privilege, and ethnic social networking operating simultaneously. Of the three, “colourism” is more correlated with skin colour.
However, your line of reasoning is quite spurious. You are trying to state that since various forms of social stratification develop all over the world, the form of “whiteness” and “White Privilege” is “natural”, “normal”, etc. and since it is natural or normal, there is no need to do anything about it. You have used this same line of reasoning as a rationale to support other ideologies which you think are just normal human evolution and therefore do not need any action.
The reasoning is inherently flawed.
It is similar to saying that the period of African slavery in the US or Jim Crow are simply “normal” social stratification systems. But not everyone agreed, and finally they are overturned. What is this called?
SOCIAL CHANGE
Social change is the normal course of most social stratification systems, when it is determined that the existing system needs to be changed. The question you should be asking is not whether the Philippines has various social stratification systems based on ethnic social networking or on colourism. The question you should be asking is whether the existing system of whiteness and white privilege in the US needs to be changed or not.
Your mention of some of the systems existing in the Philippines is a deflection on the issue of what we should do about White Privilege in the USA.
Even if it becomes the collective will of the USA to overturn its system of white privilege, there will still be other social stratification systems operating. We will have to decide if any of those need to be revised or overturned also. THIS is the normal process of social change and it is social change that will be continuing in the future.
Did you ever study social studies or sociology before? Or was it so whitewashed that it taught that whiteness or white privilege are the “normal” course of events?
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@Bulanik,
Yep, yep, yep.
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Abagond:
You have called just me a “borderline troll”. I know you did a whole post about trolls. However, to simplify, you calling me that seems to imply that I don’t believe what I am stating and am just saying these things to make you guys upset. Is that how you feel? Everytime I speak I am beat down by multiple people (usually Kiwi, Sharina and jefe, though not necessarily in any particular order, plus others, including yourself when you deign to speak to me), and no one sticks up for me. (Where is DJ when you need him? Or maybe he doesn’t care about Asian issues or hates miscegenators. People like Randy and GR are more neutral, but are almost willing to buy into the “erase your white identity” BS.)
I mean, seriously, do you not believe I am who I say I am or that the views I express are my real views?
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this time I do not understand why my comment was not publushed since it was on-topic in my opinion. i also said something about beauty strandards, but from another perspective
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Biff
George is naive not neutral and he will buy into any opinion from what I have seen just to make friends. Randy is more logical and open minded at times. He is willing to ask questions explore etc. You are like the perverted old man who whines and cries about everything he does not agree with. Who tends to belive your way is the only way and quick to misconstrue and understand things. Not to mention your need for ad hominem attacks yet upset when used on you.
Sadly even da jokah had a bit more of my respect than you and he was an azz.
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George
There are actually threads where he states he says certain things to stir things up. So you read yet another one wrong again.
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Erik
There are certain moderated words. I have had the same happen to me so nothing personal.
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Jefe:
Classifying the elevated status of the Chinese in the Philippines as “social networking” or even “colourism” downplays the racial superiority aspect, which I have observed firsthand.
Jefe:
Hello! That’s classic “privilege” right there.
Jefe:
I have specifically stated that “natural” does not mean “desirable”. The propensity for violence is also natural. This doesn’t imply that it’s desirable.
Jefe:
I call it “moral progress”.
Jefe:
It’s easy to develop a mentality wherein you make demands of others. I’d be interested to know if those making such demands would accede to similar ones made to them. Heck, you can hardly bear to admit that such privilege exists, and that you may even be the beneficiary.
Your life story, as related above, is one of vast and ongoing privilege.
Clearly you have a superior intellect which you inherited (privilege), family, friends, and social networks which nurtured and supported you at various times and places (privilege), in a wealthy country with political security (privilege), low disease and parasite load (privilege), little malnutrition (privilege) and diverse educational opportunities (privilege). Then you moved to a region where in at least some of those places, you’re granted additional unearned privilege simply based on your nationality, heritage, phenotype, and possibly surname.
If shedding privilege is so valued, what’s your own plan?
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Sorry for prying Jefe.
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@ Biff
I banned DJ. You are on your own till he shows up again as a new sock puppet.
I do not think you are an outright troll, like DJ or Asplund, but your apple is not far from their tree.
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George
Nope. I think you are naive or at least you pretend to be. As I clearly said above.
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In fact George I have said on other threads that you are frankly not what you seem and are not what you put yourself out as.
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Kiwi,
It’s interesting to see your reaction. You do this hysterical laughing thing a lot. Liberals are very sensitive to shaming, mocking and out-grouping, so they assume non-liberals are too. You must imagine that doing this “laugh at him” causes me serious mental anguish. It really doesn’t. It’s kind of a curiosity though, as it’s very predictable from you.
Abagond,
I’m sorry to hear about DJ. I guess you’re the boss here, so you can kill off whomever you please. But notice how your most interesting threads are where some sort of substantive debate pops up.
GR, thanks for your support.
Randy, very insightful last post there.
When I note things about Kiwi and jefe personally, or even Abagond (for instance, I observed a classic, avoidable beta spiral in his descriptions of his interaction with his ex) it’s tied to some substantive issue. For instance, explaining how internalized self-hatred manifests itself in interactions with others and opinions expressed on this site, not just a general insult, e.g., “perverted old man who whines and cries about everything he does not agree with”.
OK, so is there a basis for the above statement Sharina made (I usually ignore her, but I will respond to this for instructive purposes)? I’m called perverted, because, like most people in the U.S. and most people in the world, I think homosexuality should not be celebrated, and I did a tongue in cheek comparison to pedophilia to prove a point. I’m under 40, so not sure why I’m called “old”. As to whining and crying about what I don’t agree with, this is as opposed to other folks here who are so accepting of viewpoints they disagree with? So, I look at this statement, think it over briefly, and it has no meaning for me. This is why it and similar comments don’t make me upset at all.
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Kiwi,
I really try my best to avoid hurling ad hominem arguments, even if they are being hurled in my direction.
I guess one way for me is just to stop talking to them.
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Biff
For starters your whole comment is a plea of victim hood coupled with petty and laughable insults. To garner the support of the very people you said were neutral and willing to buy into whiteness. If that is not two faced I am not sure what is. what I said clearly applies to you on every level.
Secondly This is just many comments of you bring absolutely nothing to the debate. For example you claim:
“For instance, explaining how internalized self-hatred manifests itself in interactions with others and opinions expressed on this site, not just a general insult”—–This is simply a dressed up ad hominem in which you attack two people and call it logic. Why because they are not agreeing with YOU. I can pick a ton of these for each post where you make illogical insults and claim you are making a point and never manage to do so.
Thirdly i don’t’t really care what you are and are not upset by because it changes nothing I choose to say. Do you really think because you say you are not upset that I will stop? Please (rolls eyes).
And finally as to why I call you a perverted old man it really boils down to more than just the borderline pedophile stuff( another example of a poorly delivered point in which you admit to trollibg). There are other inappropriate sexual references you have made on this blog. None of which has a point at all.
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Kiwi and jefe
With his comments they are either ignore or poke fun at. I personally prefer to poke fun at. Finding logic behind his mess is like trying to find a needle a haystack.
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Oh, lol! My stomach hurts…
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This is telling.
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Jefe
What is more telling is da jokah paid him little or no attention when he was around. This admiration of biff’s is one sided and one of many reasons I think he is plain creepy.
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Reblogged this on Steph's Blog and commented:
You go, Suey Park!
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@ Kiwi
Where I disagree with Suey Park on this is whether Whites will become a minority. As I said on the Clash of Civilizations thread, they will find some way to stay in the majority. Most likely they will pick up enough white Hispanics to do that.
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@ Elridge S: Comment deleted for moderated language.
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@ Kiwi
I think there are enough white Hispanics to keep Whites on top till the early 2100s. Biff’s rhetoric about NAMs (non-Asian minorities) will not be politically necessary till then.
Expect the honorary White/model minority thing to continue because it divides people of colour and makes them less of a threat to White rule.
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This is exactly what i mean when i say poc hate white people. Along with Kil Ja Kim (off the top of my head), they assume i’m able to wave a magic wand and just suddenly give up my whiteness as if i physically or chemically can. You think i exist just to flaunt privilege and mock poc, rather than exist for the sake of it.
Yay! Nobody human actually wil ever like me for shit i can’t control, and i deserve oppression for it. Being lucky makes you evil, apparently. John Brown died white and so did that other guy. How are they exceptions? Because their only life is working with poc. Why is it painful for you for me to do things for myself. You won’t die because my life isn’t horrible.
Also, am i the only one who finds it sad that Suey Park’s Wikipedia page redirects to Colbert’s cultural impact one?
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@ Kiwi
Are there any Asian American women in the public eye who are dating or married to an Asian man? If so, who?
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Indeed, Judy Chu came to mind first when Abagond posed the question. She would be a good topic for a post, as she launched the Congressional bill for the resolution for Congress to apologize officially for the Chinese Exclusion Act.
My Aunt, who is past president of the Organization of Chinese American women and credited for launching Asian American Heritage month is married to a Chinese-American man. Arguably, she is a much more influential leader in the Asian American community than Suey Park or even Iris Chang.
(http://www.madisonvoices.com/apahistory/#Heritage)
(http://mccchurch.org/asianpacific-american-heritage-month-may-2013/#jeaniejew)
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Lisa Ling is married to an Asian man.
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An update from Wired magazine:
http://www.wired.com/2016/02/cancelcolbert-what-happened/
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Her harassers should be charged. Shouldn’t there be tangible evidence to do so?
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Lake Zurich is by no means “upper middle class”. The average price for houses are 2-$350,000. It’s all the way out in the “boonies” and people buy there because they can not afford homes in the north shore or northwest suburbs.
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