Tim Wise (1968- ) is the best-known white anti-racist in America. He writes books and articles and speaks at universities across the country – and sometimes even appears on CNN.
His big thing is telling white people about white privilege: the advantages that all white people, rich or poor, enjoy simply for being white. If blacks and other people of colour suffer from disadvantages because of racism, whites must then likewise enjoy the opposite advantages – like generally living in better neighbourhoods and more easily avoiding prison.
Rich whites in America use white privilege to buy off poor whites with certain advantages to split and weaken the working class by race. Divide and conquer. Something they have been doing since the late 1600s.
The losers are not just blacks, Mexicans and other people of colour – but poor whites too and even middle-class ones. Because whites vote against their class interests. So, for example, America does not have universal health care, something other rich countries take for granted.
White privilege blinds them to danger. So they are taken by surprise by things like 9/11, the mess in Iraq and the subprime mortgage meltdown. By seeing America from a narrow, self-serving white point of view they miss the big picture.
Wise grew up poor in Nashville, Tennessee. His father was Jewish, his mother, Scottish. At least some of the schools he went to were mostly black. He was part of one of the country’s top high school debating teams.
In the late 1980s as a student at Tulane University he took part in the anti-apartheid movement to get the university to pull its money out of companies that do business in South Africa.
In the early 1990s after Tulane he worked as an activist and fought against David Duke, a Klansman who would be senator. Wise found that what he did best was speaking and writing, which he has been doing ever since.
Blacks tend to see him as a white anti-racist, as a white ally, but whites (those who have heard of him) tend to see him as the face of anti-racism – which makes him into something more than a mere ally.
Wise says he is needed because there are plenty of whites who will listen to him who are too racist to listen seriously to people of colour. So at least the message is getting out there more than it was.
On the other hand from what I have heard and read of Wise he does not point his listeners and readers onwards – to people of colour to be taken seriously or to actions to be taken to fight against racism. His message allows whites to say, “At least I get it” – and stop there.
Malcolm X on white allies:
If you are for me and my problems – when I say me, I mean us, our people – then you have to be willing to do as old John Brown did.
See also:
- His website: timwise.org
- Ankhesen Mie: For POC with Tim Wise Issues…
- From Tim Wise:
- other white people who talk about race:
- white privilege
- Irish Americans
- Malcolm X
- How to help end racism
Abagond 
Finally!
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I liked the way he tore apart Jared Taylor in that radio debate.
Hilarious! 🙂
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Something about him has always rubbed me the wrong way, and I’ve been having a hard time putting the feeling into words.
I know what it is now. I’ve encountered other whites lik ehim, mostly on teh internet, who at times try to tell black people about this stuff. It’s really off-putting when it happens.
But then I feel like I’m being hypocritical because on a theoretical level, I think anyone should be able to discuss/advocate/teach anything to anyone else, as long as what they’re saying is sound.
Another problem I have is with the rhetoric and language around the idea of privilege. It can get sort of amorphous and nebulous, and is often mixed up with langauge around “rights” and “advantages”. I think this has had negative effects when talking about gender relations, as well. It sometimes turns into a cudgel used to silence others in convos and debates. I think speaking more precisely to exactly what you mean on any given issue is way more useful.
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You made some excellent points here, Abagond! Now let me see:
Because whites vote against their class interests. So, for example, America does not have universal health care, something other rich countries take for granted.
Not just rich countries! My country was never rich, and still, universal and free health care was seen as a normal thing everybody should have. We never thought about it. We still don’t want to think about it, so we get really angry because dental care is not free anymore.
And voting against class interests is a bad, bad strategy. Because of it, working class people are not united and the need to be in order to fight for their interests.
As for Tim Wise himself, what he says is a good thing, but I do think his motives are not always pure. Not in a way that he’s dishonest, but in a way he became famous for his books and, in a way, he uses his antiracism to promotes himself. I don’t think anybody should become a celebrity for fighting discrimination and doing what should be normal and common for everybody.
What I’m saying is, I am sure he is a great guy and all, but frankly, I don’t need to know what kind of a guy he is. It doesn’t matter if he is the one who says those things or if it’s another person- the messenger is not important, but the message.
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I understand what Tim Wise is trying to do, and I believe it is a good thing, but I hate the whole “cult of Tim Wise” thing I see going on. When I have spoken with people who identify as “white anti racists” the first thing out of their mouths is: “You are fighting racism the WRONG WAY. Tim Wise says….. ” then proceed to tell me that I should STOP listening to any of the knowledge I have learned from my Black friends because this WHITE MAN knows better! The whole “whites should work with whites only” thing seems like a convenient way of avoiding the idea of having to actually answer to and take direction from POC. I don’t know, maybe it is just me, but instead of taking the idea of “Oh, white folks are an inconvenience to POC in the struggle” and forming whites only groups, I feel like we should use that opportunity to examine and change our own actions so that we are no longer looked upon as a burden. I believe that Tim Wise and his followers fall into the same trap… they try to interpret what POC want, and end up treating all POC as if they are a monolithic entity who all have the same needs and desires. Just my opinion.
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I had never heard of Tim Wise. I found you, Abagond, through other anti-racist blogs I follow. It’s nice to know that there’s a white anti-racist voice whose message you like, but I would probably direct other white people to read your writing first. In fact, I have!
I read your linked essay from Ankhesen Mié about Wise and I can sort of see why he’s got to be relentlessly self-promoting and career-minded to get his message out. After all, there is a lot of resistance to the message, so to become the person delivering it requires some strong positioning. It does bother me, now that I see it, how white people won’t automatically trust, listen to, credit, black speakers telling the truth about the experience of racism in this country. I’m glad it’s not only people of color speaking out about racism, but I feel like white anti-racists (rank and file types, like me) should be looking for their direction and leadership from anti-racist leaders who are people of color. Otherwise, we’re just replicating one of the main features of racism in our attempts to stop it.
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Yes vindicator. I heard that too. It was epic. I will post a link if I can find it!
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Tim Wise is right about being needed. But imho not simply because many whites are too racist to listen to POC, but because racism is their problem. They created, they perpetrate it, and its up to them to stop it. It’s their minds and emotions that require transformation.
As POC we can march in the streets as much as we please. As I recall from history we did. Did racism end? No, the laws changed but the racism only went underground or learned to be more media savvy. If the tea party isn’t the 2nd coming of the Klan I don’t know what is.
So whites need to deal with their problems surrounding racism and I’m glad Tim Wise is out there to at least start the dialogue.
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If someone believes that they can give me an attitude readjustment on the matter, I would be open to it, but I’m rather annoyed by this concept of white privilege. I believe in the privilege of old money versus new money, which does involve POC in that dimension, but I don’t understand the broad concept. I don’t see how a lack of a deficit( as a white guy) lends me an advantage. For example, in a job interview if I were competing against a POC, relative to him, I might come out with an advantage of whiteness, but whiteness itself does not make life easier. To me, being a white guy around other white people theoretically puts me on a level playing field, but not taking into account other factors such as my looks, my weight, my way of dress, and my background which are all other very important factors. So in that sense, being a POC is just one factor among others that in my case, being white eliminates just one of many other types of discrimination to worry about.
I’m only going off of Abagonds post of course, but most of those positions don’t quite make sense to me.
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After listening to some of his videos, the concept there is certainly making more sense to me, and it’s pretty enlightening so far. But if anyone else has a perspective to share I’d like to see it as well.
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Here is part one of Wise v. Taylor… The host is pretty balanced, he did a good job of moderating the debate.
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Tim Wise is the end result of a half a century of liberal fantasies. He is a master at ass pulling specious arguments to shore up the “evil whitey conspiracy” .Of course I use the term “arguments” in a loose maner as the majority of his writings are emotional laden guilt trips sprinkeled from point to point with misleading (if not outright false) statistics. His favorite tactic is to imply that those statistics that cronicle the underwhelming performance of NAMs in most indicators of success and their disproportionate patronage of prisons as being a sure proof of white villany. This “white privilege theory” or more aptly called voodo racism strikes with the power of wichcraft at exceptional POC’s causing them to miss the corect answer on standardized texting(The unclosable Gap), not use a condom (AIDS and single mothers) and shoot each other over dissing. Bizzare enough most Asians manage to avoid the spectral forces of whitey’s curse (must be all that Zen or Tao)
This events when viewed through Tim’s lens do indeed seem quite misterios, as in a world view where total human statistical equality is the linchpin of their entire world conception, the only explanation remaining is that old whitey has done it (somehow) again. Any other theory would invite the horific idea (Goddess forbid) that races might have diferent average abilities. Such thoughtcrime would mean that the glorius “Millenium” when all are equal and paradise has been legislated on Earth will not be hapening any time soon.
As for the fact that people vote against their interests this is merely one of the perks of diversity. When the country is divided in population groups each of them will vote for the tribe not for the nation. Just one of those “strengths” of diversity.
Tim Wise is a full blown product of the “slave morality” (in the Nietzschean sense) that permeates the West. In this morality the best are not those that produce and are succesfull but the failures. The bigger a failure you are the bigger your moral credit becomes.On a funny note has anyone observed how desperate lefty Asians are to prove that they also have failures among them. They can’t stand being asociated with succesfull people so they try to get on the moral high ground by waving their drunk second cousin as proof of moral correctness. In this system the only way to be give “credit to your race” is to fail as hard as possible.
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@dav
Lord, will those evil liberals ever stop? Those wicked wretches!
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“Reportedly he can speak perfect Black English”.
What does that even mean? LOL!!
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To Wise’s credit, he explicitly will tell white people, “Listen to POC. The next time you’re talking to POC about race, listen. And remember that in every generation, when discussing racism, they’ve gotten right, whereas white people, in every generation, have gotten it wrong.”
Poetess said:
Tim Wise is right about being needed. But imho not simply because many whites are too racist to listen to POC, but because racism is their problem. They created, they perpetrate it, and its up to them to stop it. It’s their minds and emotions that require transformation.
This is precisely why I don’t completely denounce the likes of Wise and others like him. This is their problem, and it’s good thing “some” of them are trying to get that particular message out.
One other reason people like Wise and Jensen are crucial – again, to white people – is that their vision of the future is realistic. Both flat-out state that formalized white supremacy isn’t going to be around forever, and eventually – a lot sooner than most WP realize – they will find themselves in a world where they don’t have its extra privileges, and will not know how to function without them.
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Where we go with the HBD bullshish.
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“as anyone observed how desperate lefty Asians are to prove that they also have failures among them.”
Not really.
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Nice one Abagond. I’ve never heard of Tim Wise before.
Co-signed.
Promoting segregation by “race” and then apologising for it with pseudoscientific nonsense is the result of brainwashing and cultivation of ignorance from early childhood on. There is nothing natural about it.
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I’ve heard this man speak. In my honest opinion, there should be a warning label on his material:
FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY.
Quite honestly, he makes me ill. This man refers to us as “people of color”. Seriously? In my opinion he’s just another blowhard who’s figured out a way to get rich from activism – nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes you just have to laugh.
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Clear>>Quite honestly, he makes me ill. This man refers to us as “people of color”. Seriously? In my opinion he’s just another blowhard who’s figured out a way to get rich from activism – nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes you just have to laugh.<<
We've been known to refer to ourselves that way. If you don't like him, maybe you'll like Louis CK:
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@clear
Yeah cause there is so much money in anti-racism. Drrrrr
” but because racism is their problem. They created, they perpetrate it, and its up to them
to stop it. It’s their minds and emotions that
require transformation.”
exactly. Couldn’t have said it better.
The “perfect black English” thing was odd.
I do wonder about that sometimes though. Is that something that would generally be appreciated by POC? It seems like appropriation to me. Which is why even though I grew up in a black neighborhood I try to hide the accent, unless I’m drunk. 🙂
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@ Patricia Kayden:
“Reportedly he can speak perfect Black English”.
What does that even mean? LOL!!
I had to LOL at that also. Maybe he can do this:
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lol what is “black english”
i liked this article til i read that stupid phrase
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I threw in the Black English thing because I thought it was interesting, but since it is drawing attention away from Tim Wise himself I took it out.
More on Black English here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/ebonics/
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Black English is more linguistically complex than Abagond describes it. It is also not slang or particularly street either. It consist of more than vestiges of the vocabulary, its structure is from African languages. Although, it was first described in The Language in the Inner City, by William Labov, the research covered most of the way Blacks spoke across the country.
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But it’s not a different language, it’s a different dialects, right? (wrong?)
I admit, I went “wtf” when I read about Tim Wise speaking perfect black English not because I don’t recognize it, but because it did sound a bit… weird. Not sure why. Not because he’s white per se, but because it did sound like “Look at me! I’m close to black people!”- and I am sure that’s not how he wanted it to be.
I don’t want to bash Tim Wise because, obviously, he is doing the right thing, and he does say many important stuff. However, I don’t think he should be worshipped or something. He, like a person, is not THAT important.
It’s like a guy who says it’s not ok to beat up your girlfriend. What he says is a good thing, but he should not be praised for saying something that is obvious, and I don’t think he should became famous for it. Especially among women, who’ve been saying the same thing for decades.
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Abagond,
Once again a great post!
@ Ruth,
I think it might actually be better if POC read Tim Wise first. I’m black so know first hand just how difficult and damn near impossible it is to get most white people as a general rule to hear anything any POC has say about racism. Tim Wise’s inbuilt white privelege is far more likely to let him actually get the attention of the white global community than Abagond. Should whites be willing to listen to Abagond first? ABSOLUTELY. But all KNOW that with most white people, they won’t (this a univeral truth in other white western countries, like Norway, where I live, too, not just in the U.S.).
Mira said:
“
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Mira:
Black English is a dialect of English. But whereas the differences between British and American English are mainly ones of vocabulary and pronunciation, Black English, in addition, has differences in grammar. It has more tenses, for example, than Standard English. It grew out of the Creole English of West Africa and the Caribbean. But the difference in grammar sounds like “bad grammar” to many and therefore can be read as a sign of a lack of education or intelligence. “The Color Purple” by Alice Walker is written in Black English.
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I got that, Abagond (about being considered a sign of lack of education, bad slang, lack of intelligence, etc) instead of a regular dialect. It’s not why I went “wtf?” about Wise speaking it. But the way he said it (or the way you made it sound), it just seemed… wrong. (Like one of those “My best friend is black” arguments). Knowing Wise’s work, I don’t think he wanted it to sound like that.
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Mira:
That was me and I did not mean it to sound that way. I just thought it was an interesting fact.
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Yes, it is an interesting fact. Maybe you just didn’t use the right words to present it. 500 words format is not always best for presenting various aspects of a subject.
BTW, most popular results about learning ebonics are “joke” sites and not serious stuff, which means many people don’t see it as a real thing that anybody would want to learn.
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@RDKirk
I have to say that Louis CK clip was hilarious!!!
And your right perhaps if more white people just came out and spoke honestly what they felt this is probably what they would say. – This is what makes it so funny.
Black people have been making funny of themselves for years against this background of white privilege (e.g. Richard Prior).
Of course white people got it and laughed along because a Black person was saying it. They just thought it!!!
Now white people can say it (Louis CK) and make jokes about it too!!
Wouldn’t it be great if more white comedians could articulate this white privilege stuff.
So equally. Wouldn’t it be even better if more white people could have the courage and conviction to articulate and debate with other white people about the self-imposed limitations of a white privileged perspective.
Tim Wise is just one model. For me though the best yet. Where are the others? So Just like in comedy why isn’t this catching on…?
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“Wouldn’t it be even better if more white people could have the courage and conviction to articulate and debate with other white people about the self-imposed limitations of a white privileged perspective. ”
Truth.
I don’t understand Tim’s anti-racist detractors. They always seem to go after his motivation or personality or whatever. Who cares? It’s not about him. He’s the only WP out there publicly talking about privilege. I want him to get more famous, write more books, appear more often on news networks. because that’s what the Sarah Palin’s of the world are out there doing.
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Jasonburns… I beg to differ… he is NOT the only white person publicly talking about privilege. He is the white person who is FAMOUS for talking about privilege.
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Oops, somehow only part of my last post got posted. I have no clue what happened. Anyways…
Abagond said:
“The losers are not just blacks, Mexicans and other people of colour – but poor whites too and even middle-class ones. Because whites vote against their class interests. So, for example, America does not have universal health care, something other rich countries take for granted.”
Mira said:
“Not just rich countries! My country was never rich, and still, universal and free health care was seen as a normal thing everybody should have. We never thought about it. We still don’t want to think about it, so we get really angry because dental care is not free anymore…
What I’m saying is, I am sure he is a great guy and all, but frankly, I don’t need to know what kind of a guy he is. It doesn’t matter if he is the one who says those things or if it’s another person- the messenger is not important, but the message.”
An excellent point, Mira and Abagond. Little Norway (4.7 million people in a space the size of Texas) also has had universal healthcare in since 1894! And while Norway is a rich country now, it wasn’t untill oil was discovered off its coast in the North Sea in the late 1960s. My birth country the U.S., should be able to do at least as well as Norway. So why haven’t we? Because the people in the U.S. who would most benefit from true universal healthcare are so brainwashed to think of each other as the enemy that they (and me, too, when I still lived in the U.S.) can’t get on the same page together. Tim Wise is putting that particular message out there and, yes, that is a good thing.
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Poetess said:
“Tim Wise is right about being needed. But imho not simply because many whites are too racist to listen to POC, but because racism is their problem. They created, they perpetrate it, and its up to them to stop it. It’s their minds and emotions that require transformation.
As POC we can march in the streets as much as we please. As I recall from history we did. Did racism end? No, the laws changed but the racism only went underground or learned to be more media savvy. If the tea party isn’t the 2nd coming of the Klan I don’t know what is.
So whites need to deal with their problems surrounding racism and I’m glad Tim Wise is out there to at least start the dialogue.”
Agreed. Poetess, you speak to the hear of the matter. Part of the problem with combating racism is this little issue most whites have with wanting POC to do all the combating, educating, understanding, etc. Even in countries like Norway, as a POC I’m expected to tolerate racism and educate Norwegians out of it (mostly against their will. This sort of stupidity exists even in a country that didn’t participate in slavery, only colonialized other white people, and they haven’t even done the colonial thing for over a 1000 years. They still have a share of the blame for the perpetuation of racism, however Why? Because what they did do was send missionaries to non-white cultures right along with every other western European nation and it was the missionaries who started the whole,’ these people are inferior to us and we must civilize them because their ( insert skin color, language, society, religion, whatever) is different from ours’ thinking. This is basis for racist thinking. So Poetess is quite correct when she says it is whites who need to transform their thoughts and emotions. Tim Wise does at least acknowlege this-which is more than most whites are willing to do.
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Like I said, message is always more important than the messenger.
But I do wonder why there aren’t more whites* who talk about this stuff, because obviously whites need to talk in order for whites to listen. I can see the need for a white woman here, because they need to understand these dynamics and I am not sure if many of them get it. Being victims of sexism, they are often unable to understand they can be the oppressors.
*I don’t think majority of whites are like Tim Wise, nor that they care. But there’s gotta be more than the selected few everybody’s talking about. And where are the girls?
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jas0n, he isn’t the only white person who publicly speaks about [white] privilege. He might be one of the more well known white anti-racists, but he’s not the only one. Abagond linked to a couple of others in the “See also:” section under the original post.
Mira, the main (only?) white female I know of who has spoken about white privilege is Peggy McIntosh. She wrote “White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack”:
http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf
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Tim Wise has gotten famous and made a lot of money off of anti-racist work. That does not mean that he has not done good, he has. But he is NOT the be all and end all of anti-racism, and people (especially white people) want to afford him this Godlike status. As in ANY movement, for every individual who is famous and well known, there are hundreds, if not thousands, who no one has ever heard of, and they are just as important.
There are two women I know of, who do anti-racist work, but do not use the same terminology and methods as Tim Wise, which seem to be in vogue among the “white anti-racist” crowd. They are not nearly as well known, but those who are aware of their work have a lot of respect for what they do. The are Ida Hakim and Donna Lamb from CURE (Caucasions United for Reparations and Emancipation)
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I’m quite a bit relieved that Tim Wise isn’t the only white person who publicly acknowlegeds both white privilege and racism. With that said, there still aren’t that many, so I still don’t think we really want to dis any of the ones trying to do the right and educate the rest-including, but not limited to, Tim Wise.
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>>Because the people in the U.S. who would most benefit from true universal healthcare are so brainwashed to think of each other as the enemy that they (and me, too, when I still lived in the U.S.) can’t get on the same page together. Tim Wise is putting that particular message out there and, yes, that is a good thing.<<
Toward the mid 1800s in the US, it was WELL known that slavery devalued the worth of a white man's labor and kept poor white men poor. That is the reason slavery in new western states was so hotly contested.
But poor whites in the south were duped by the Southern aristocrats to "protect the liberty of our states to maintain our way of life." I don't know how many poor southern whites understood how the economics of slavery worked against them, but they were willing to spend their blood supporting a system that kept them poor.
And now, we see the same thing happening. Joe the Plumber is totally oblivious to the real issue of subsistence-level labor in China being used by modern aristocrats to keep him poor.
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While it is odd in one sense that a white man like Tim Wise is seen by some as the ultimate authority on racism, he definitely fulfils an essential role that POC cannot do in the anti-racism struggle. Like it or not, many WP won’t want to hear criticism from POCs. Which is understandable on one level – POCs don’t like it when WP tell them what’s wrong with their communities, for example, but usually accept criticism from within their own community.
But the other important aspect is that as a white man, Tim Wise has an insight into the mindset of white people that POC might not. Which is not to say he understands the white mind completely of course. But he probably has a better chance of understanding both the good and bad aspects of white psychology than most POC, just because he is a white man himself, and because he is able to move in white circles and have a sense for what they say when POC aren’t around.
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@ jas0nburns : Obviously there is money to be made in anti-racism. Wise is doing it, is he not? Drrrrr
Government housing – substandard on the best day.
Government run schools – substandard.
Government run anything – substandard.
Prove me wrong.
The only thing the government does well is collect taxes.
Government run health care? No thanks. I’ve seen how successful all the other government programs are. It’s just another way for the .gov machine to keep us under its’ thumb.
As for Mr. Wise, I stand by my opinion. He’s the leftist version of Glenn Beck.
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I should have said most visible white anti-racist.
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@clear
“Obviously there is money to be made in anti-racism. Wise is doing it, is he not? Drrrrr”
“As for Mr. Wise, I stand by my opinion. He’s the leftist version of Glenn Beck.”
I’m sure beck makes a bit more money don’t you? There is probably more money in telling people what they want to hear than in telling them what they don’t want to hear but need to hear anyway. That’s not the career choice of a cynical opportunist.
If I though you could string together a coherent thought I might ask what your government run comments have to do with Wise or but….
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clear—>>@ jas0nburns : Obviously there is money to be made in anti-racism. Wise is doing it, is he not? Drrrrr
Government housing – substandard on the best day.
Government run schools – substandard.
Government run anything – substandard.
Prove me wrong.
The only thing the government does well is collect taxes.<<
As a 26-year military man from a family with a 100-year military family history, let me advise you on behalf of all men and women wearing the uniforms of the US military that you, sir, are FULL of CRAP.
I would suggest you walk up to the next US Marine that you see and tell HIM that he is substandard. I suspect he will relieve you of some of that crap.
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@jas0nburns
Thanks for noticing the lack of coherency in my thought process. I’ll work on that in the future. A little note: when attempting to claim the intellectual high ground you may want to check your grammar and spelling. 😉
To answer your question, the government run comments are in response to the clamoring for government run health care in several responses.
I’m off to work on my thought coherency.
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@ RDKirk
Calm down. I’m referencing government run social programs.
I’m a veteran myself (USN Persian Gulf Desert Shield/Storm) as is my wife (USMC), my father (USMC Vietnam), her father (USMC 35 years ret.), and my grandfather (USN WWII Pacific). I would in no way belittle the military. By the way, thank you for your continued service.
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“when attempting to claim the intellectual high ground you may want to check your grammar and spelling.”
Oh U a teechur now? U gunna skool me?
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@clear
guess you were right about public school. 🙂
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@ Clear:
I’m not going to lecture you about thought coherency. But you might want to rethink your antagonism towards Wise and his use of the term “people of color”.
Hang around this blog and other anti-racist blogs you’ll see the term used ALL THE TIME. By “people of colour”.
I’m sure you have other problems with Wise and that’s fine. And I understand if you don’t like that term. But it shouldnt be a reason for you not to like him.
Personally, I think it would be much better if anti-racists stopped trying to attack each other. It’s counter-productive. Better to emphasise things in common.
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I also am not a fan of the term “people of color” or “PoC” as it, once again, put whites as the center of everything. It also somewhat implies that all non-whites are united in a fashion and that white supremacy/racism affects them equally. Both of which I don’t agree with.
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^^^
Exactly, I want to do a post on that actually.
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Y,
I did one, but I’ll still use POC for shorthand (even though I’m generally just talking about Black people since I am one).
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You know I’m REALLY going to have to proofread my postS more carefully!
I said:
@Ruth,
I think it might actually be better if POC read Tim Wise first. I’m black so know first hand just how difficult and damn near impossible it is to get most white people as a general rule to hear anything any POC has say about racism. Tim Wise’s inbuilt white privelege is far more likely to let him actually get the attention of the white global community than Abagond. Should whites be willing to listen to Abagond first? ABSOLUTELY. But all KNOW that with most white people, they won’t (this a univeral truth in other white western countries, like Norway, where I live, too, not just in the U.S.).
What I meant to say was:
I think it might actually be better if WHITE PEOPLE read Tim Wise first. I’m black so know first hand just how difficult and damn near impossible it is to get most white people as a general rule to hear anything any POC has say about racism. Tim Wise’s inbuilt white privelege is far more likely to let him actually get the attention of the white global community than Abagond. Should whites be willing to listen to Abagond first? ABSOLUTELY. But we all KNOW that with most white people, they won’t (this a univeral truth in other white western countries, like Norway, where I live, too, not just in the U.S.).
I only noticed this glaring mistake when I was rereading the responses on this topic today. (Blakgenius shakes her head)
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Malcolm X once said “If you find a good white person, kill them first, before they turns bad”
Tim Wise ?
White people are world champion linguists, these so called anti racists are so wordy aren’t they ? These white folks are exceptional at using words to shift the conversation; they’re wizards at avoiding questions. Or agreeing with the non-white person, but dropping a barrage of words, so the original point is smothered in a heap of irrelevant S**T – this is trademark of Tim Wise.
Remember when the white man first came to Africa he didn’t come in showing open bitter hatred for the Africans, he came in with smiles, with gifts, he came in as sincere friend, he learned from Africans but as soon as the Africans lowered their guard and he learnt the ways of the Africans, he destroyed them, tricked them and enslaved them.
AGAIN – When the white man first came to America, he didn’t come showing open bitter hatred for the Mative Indians, he came in with smiles, with gifts, as a sincer friend, he learned from Native Indians, he even inter married but as soon as the Native Indians lowered their guard and he learnt the ways of the Native Indians, he destroyed them in a mass genocide.
If you don’t learn your lesson from history you will be doomed to repeat them. The best killers in the jungle aren’t the animals who lay on the ground with their teeth open, NOPE, the most effective killers are those animals who creep up slowly, catch you off guard, then strike. Black people : Trust Tim Wise and he will take you to hell with him.
Do you know what hurts us black people ? It’s that we think that white people are like us. We think that white people have the same heart as us. When I say white people are devils, this is not done for name calling, this is because this is what they are.
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@ Africanblackmilitant:
You’ll be aware of course that Malcolm X later backed away from quotes like that, and decided that white people in general were not in fact devils. He moved on from such ridiculous thinking, why can’t you?
Save your energy for attacking the white men who DO hate you, not the ones who actually have good intentions.
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africanblackmilitant–
“If you find a good white person, kill them first, before they turns bad”
RDKirk–
Is that your final answer? If so, you don’t have much to contribute to the debate, ’cause we don’t have the guns for that.
I remember conversations in the “Humanities Dorm” back in 72 at the University of Oklahoma (back when there really were Black Panthers) some of the black guys from the big cities were talking about buying guns from JC Penny and having the revolution. I don’t know what white people were like where they were from, but in Oklahoma white people were well-practiced at shooting brown things from the age of five.
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africanblackmilitant said:
Malcolm X once said “If you find a good white person, kill them first, before they turns bad”
Malcolm X never said that:
1. It does not google to anything he said.
2. He would have said, “he turns bad”, not “they turns bad”. Using “they” as an indefinite third person singular pronoun was not common till after the 1970s, long after he was dead. Nor would he have used bad grammar and said “they turns”, though maybe that is just a typo.
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RDKirk 😀 Back in the 80’s when I was living in NYC I actually met one guy who had been involved with some kind of violent revolutionary stuff (he offered no details and I did not ask) in the 60’s and he did some time for it. According to him it was a bit childish to imagine that couple dozen guys could actually take on the FBI, CIA, NYPD, national guard and US military, but they did at the time. We did not win, he said.
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sam–
According to him it was a bit childish to imagine that couple dozen guys could actually take on the FBI, CIA, NYPD, national guard and US military, but they did at the time. We did not win, he said.
RDKirk–
I think they were unprepared for the incredible overreaction of the white power structure to any level of threat to the white monopoly of the means of violence.
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I got quite a laugh over the person who called Time Wise the Glen Beck of the left! Really???? Has that person actually watched or listened to Beck and his “Becker-woods?”
Glen Beck appears to doing his absolute best to generate the social attitudes and conditions that pave the way for genocide. He is a master at demonizing what he and his sponsors and supporters consider “the other,” whether those “others” are those “loony liberals” or the “dirty, dangerous progressives” or our “socialist president,” and of of course, those dangerous black folks.
The idea that anyone could seriously see a similarity between that man and Tim Wise is utterly ludicrous.
I just learned about Tim Wise a few weeks ago (saw some reference to him on this blog), and have read every article of his I can find online.
I am not one of the groupies that others are referring too ( I didn’t know there was a Time Wise cult), but I really like the guy. I like his writing and I like his bluntness, how he just comes out and says it like it is.
I didn’t know there were white people out there so publicly saying and writing so honestly about the white privilege and actually getting media coverage. So, I am happy to know he’s out there countering the Glen Beck and Sarah Palin bull crap. I will look up the other white folks mentioned on this post, since I’ve never heard of them.
The Tim Wises, however few and far between make me feel a little less alone. I listen to his videos and think, “Preach, brother, preach!”
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I will look up the other white folks mentioned on this post, since I’ve never heard of them.
How about reading PoC who’ve BEEN writing, talking, educating, lecturing about White supremacist racism for CENTURIES?
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thank you witchsistah…
i went to a website for “white anti-racist activists” a few months ago, and was basically told I was going about things all wrong because I chose to read Dr. Frances Cress Welsing, Neely Fuller Jr., Del Jones, and other Black authors, when I SHOULD BE reading the white anti racist activist GOD, Tim Wise. So, no disrespect to Mr. Wise and what he is doing, but I was turned of to him ever since.
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Witchsistah and Jujube,
SWW is my best friend and we took AA literature in college together. In fact, it’s where we met. You’re wrong in assuming she hasn’t read any anti-racist writing by POC. I know she has. We we’ve read every thing from Nat Turner, to Soujorner Truth, to W.E.B. Du Bois, to Amiri Baraka, to Richard Wright, to Eldridge Cleaver, to Malcom X. Don’t make assumptions. This is this stuff that gets us all fighting amongst ourselves and keeps the wealthy white power structure in place.
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Uhh…I thought this article of Abagond’s was ABOUT Tim Wise? Maybe I misread something…or maybe I was not clear.
I am white, and often I feel very much alone among other white people. I do not know other whites who actually think and feel the way I do about racism and white privilege. I live in the south, and my crossing the color line in my friendships and associations does not make me popular with other whites. I find that my relationships with other whites tend be superficial, or do not last very long, at least until something racial comes up and someone reveals their “true colors.”
I know that logically, there must be other whites out there who think and feel and see things the way I do; I just don’t know any.
THAT is partly why I like Tim Wise. When I read about him and other whites like him, I know I am NOT alone out here. There are others. And that gives me hope.
Is that so difficult to understand?
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Why are you taking a suggestion that you read POC and a general critique of the “white anti-racist” movement as a personal attack? (Maybe you are not, but it SEEMS that way…. of course, I cannot read tone of voice through my computer screen so forgive me if I am wrong) My statement was a general observation based on what I have seen in the “white anti racist” crowd in general and was not intended as a critique of you specifically….
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jujube–
i went to a website for “white anti-racist activists” a few months ago, and was basically told I was going about things all wrong because I chose to read Dr. Frances Cress Welsing, Neely Fuller Jr., Del Jones, and other Black authors, when I SHOULD BE reading the white anti racist activist GOD, Tim Wise. So, no disrespect to Mr. Wise and what he is doing, but I was turned of to him ever since.
RDKirk–
So basically you were “turned off” to the man because you went to a white anti-racist site and someone else said you should be reading him?
And now a white person comes to a black anti-racist site and you do precisely the same thing to her…and expect her not to react the same way you did?
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And to be fair, I have to confess my own biases…. I look upon most white people who claim to be “anti racist activists” with cynicism… I had never heard the term until very recently, I just knew I was a person who was interested in fighting racism, and who happened to be white. So, I really do not look at any white people who write about “anti-racist” work as authorities, because I kind of question the whole idea of a white person being an expert or anything other than a novice when it comes to racism. Plus, honestly, it bothers me that a lot of the “white anti racist” proponents I have spoken to talk about ending racism, but actually have NO desire to do so. Not all, but a lot, seems firmly entrenched in their world where they can claim anti-racist credentials without ever having to establish any sort of relationship with any person who is not white.
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@JuJuBe,
Isn’t Witchsistah doing the same thing? Because I said that I was going to read up on some of those white anti-racist? I guess I am also “going about it all wrong” since I am glad to hear about some white folks writing about white privilege?
Just as an FYI, I didn’t educate myself about white privilege and racism by reading white authors. I didn’t know there were any. I already said in my post that I learned about Tim Wise a few weeks ago. It was my black friends and black writers that educated me…along with my eyes, ears, heart and brain. (Yeah, believe it or not, some of us white folks actually possess those and use them) 🙂
Also, I do not call myself an “anti-racist.” I call myself a child of God, who hates injustice and degradation and dehumanization of other children of God, by those who deem themselves superior and who think that by virtue of their whiteness are somehow of more value than those of other colors.
I read the black writers and will continue to do so. There are many black writers who document and have documented the sordid history of our nation’s white supremacy and racism. But until I read this blog, I did not know of any whites doing the same thing.
Basically, the Tim Wises of the world give me hope…..hope that AfricanBlack Militant is WRONG about my people.
P.S. Both you and Witchsistah seem to be making some of his same assumptions.
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RDKirk… that was a real simplified version of how I feel about Tim Wise…. I explained more in my more recent comment…. I had read Tim Wise before I went to that site, and spoken about him with a friend/mentor, who gave HIS opinion about the work Tim Wise was doing (he didn’t have a very high opinion of him) and that influenced my opinion of him as well. I cannot go into all the details here, but basically, my friend told me that he does not trust a man who rails against a system that is providing his means of earning a living (the reason Tim Wise has the status Tim Wise has is because of the privilege his whiteness earns him, in other words) I cannot explain it as well as my friend did, but it makes a lot of sense.
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Who said Tim Wise was an authority? Neither SWW nor I said he was and he’s not. And what does this have to do with liking what he is doing and agreeing with what he says,anyway? But I still think white people are more likely to listen to him than to any of US. That’s wrong; but that’s how it is. Personally, I don’t care how the message gets out there, as long as it’s out there and people are hearing it.
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Well, I do believe that the white race as a whole is evil, so I see where AfricanBlackMilitant is coming from. Do I believe every individual white person is evil? Not necessarily, because I know I try to be a righteous person myself. But on the whole do I believe that the white race is redeemable? That is debatable. I believe there is a small percentage of white people who strive to overcome their racial legacy, but not enough. So, I understand the mentality that says the white race should be destroyed. It would be nice if those of use who DO strive to promote justice could be saved if it came down to that, but the white race has acted as a cancer on this earth, and in order to kill cancer, some healthy cells have to die as well. And no, I am not a perfect person who always does the right thing, but I do make the effort, as do a few other people I have come across, but in general, white people have been all to willing to allow injustice to continue as long as it does not impact them directly.
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@JuJuBe,
I did not take either yours or Witchsistah’s “suggestion” as an attack. However, both of you exhibited certain obvious assumptions…namely assuming that I HADN’T read any black anti-racism writers and activists.
I do appreciate the apology, and yes I forgive you. I also actually can appreciate your cynicism about the “anti-white racism crowd.” (that term is also new to me. I first saw it on this site). It may sound strange, but white people can have similar experiences. I have come to understand some of my black friends’ “paranoia” when it comes to white people, after some experiences of my own. One white person I know that I thought shared at least some of my views on this, revealed in a particularly atrocious way (by betraying the confidences of her black friends in a gathering of whites in order to maintain her “in” with that group) the “slipperiness” of white people claiming to be anti-racist.
Therefore, I do not take your comments as an attack. I believe you when you say you have past experiences that make you suspicious of white people and difficulty trusting their motives. Despite that though, I do feel compelled to point out your assumptions.
There are “white allies” who WOULD feel attacked and turned off though by such comments, who perhaps have not had my experiences and may not be able to grasp why you would make such assumptions. That’s why I called you on it.
P.S. I posted my last comment before I saw your apology. The comparison to ABM was partly tongue in cheek. Will you forgive me?
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Again Blakgenius, I have emphasized several times in my comments that I was NOT referring to you or SWW specifically but to the White anti racist movement in general, which for the most part DOES hold up Tim Wise as an authority! I cannot understand why, when I have SPECIFICALLY SAID that this was NOT a personal critique, but a general one, you and SWW still believe that I am addressing my comment to you personally
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RDKirk said:
RDKirk–
“So basically you were “turned off” to the man because you went to a white anti-racist site and someone else said you should be reading him?
And now a white person comes to a black anti-racist site and you do precisely the same thing to her…and expect her not to react the same way you did?”
Thank you!
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@RDKirk,
Thank you! You said it better than I ever could. I must apologize for that comment on another thread about cooking up grits for you. I had misread the whole grits comments. However, you reminded me of the actual meaning of it. So, no grits for you! But would you be ok with mesquite BBQ? 🙂
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I give up, apparently no one is actually reading my comments, because NO WHERE did I say SWW you are doing it all wrong, you should not be reading Tim Wise, you should be reading so and so…..
I simply gave a GENERAL CRITIQUE of the white anti-racist movement. I CLARIFIED that OVER AND OVER AND OVER.This is going to be my last effort to do so….
MY POINT ABOUT READING THE WORK OF POC WAS NOT SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED AT SWW….. I WAS SPEAKING IN GENERAL TERMS….. PLEASE TELL ME HOW MUCH MORE EXPLICITLY I CAN MAKE MY POINT UNDERSTOOD!!!!!
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Jujube said:
“Well, I do believe that the white race as a whole is evil, so I see where AfricanBlackMilitant is coming from.”
My husband is white, my child is biracial, and my best friend is white. How am I not supposed take your comments personally? Would you not be offended if a white supremist came on this site and said all black people are a cancer that needs exterminating? Seeing as I am black and my child is half black I would be certainly be offended. But that just me.
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@JuJuBe,
You said: “It would be nice if those of use who DO strive to promote justice could be saved if it came down to that, but the white race has acted as a cancer on this earth, and in order to kill cancer, some healthy cells have to die as well.”
In response and contrast…
“That man who is forced each day to snatch his manhood, his identity, out of the fire of human cruelty that rages to destroy it knows, if he can survive his effort, and even if he does not survive it, something about himself and human life that no school on earth–and, indeed, no church–can teach. He achieves his own authority, and that is unshakable. This is because, in order to save his life, he is forced to look beneath appearances, to take nothing for granted, to hear the meaning behind the words. If one is continually surviving the worst that life can bring, one eventually ceases to be controlled by a fear of what life can bring; whatever it brings must be borne. And at this level of experience one’s bitterness begins to be palatable, and hatred becomes too heavy a sack to carry………….
” The apprehension of life here so briefly and inadequately sketched has been the experience of generations of Negroes, and it helps to explain how they have endured and how they have been able to explain how they have endured and how they have been able to produce children of kindergarten age who can walk through mobs to get to school…It demands great spiritual resilience to not hate the hater whose foot is on your neck, and an even greater miracle of perception and charity not to teach your child to hate.”
——-by James Baldwin, from “The Fire Next Time”
JuJuBe, one of the dangers of unchecked cynicism and bitterness is how it can consume a person and result in their becoming the very thing that seeks to destroy them. And ultimately, isn’t that the very essence of racism when you strip it down to its core? Doesn’t it seek to destroy you, as a non-white person?
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I was referring to my comments about the white anti racist movement not being directed at you or SWW personally…. but as for my agreeing with AfricanBlackMilitant, you have every right to take THOSE comments personally if you wish. Of course, in my comment I do say that there are a SMALL PERCENTAGE of white people who are righteous. I believe I am among that small percentage, I certainly strive to be. I hope for you sake and the sake of your family that your husband and your best friend are also among the righteous few. As much as it pains me, and as much as it distresses me and even keeps me up at night to recognize that I am the child of a wicked race of people, it is the truth. Instead of denying the evils of the white race, more people should be striving to transcend that legacy.
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SWW- I am not a non white person. I am white. And what I believe is what I believe. I will stand by what I said.
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@ Jujube
I am always nervous of the “righteous few” doctrine. It so often leads to perceptions of self-importance and fanaticism.
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Well, King, I don’t think I can be accused of inflating my own self importance, or self aggrandizing, as I am pretty quick to find flaws in myself, and often question my own righteousness, but as for fanaticism… that is an accusation I have heard before, and I not think it is necessarily a bad thing. People often mistake passion for fanaticism.
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If I read you wrong, SWW, I apologize. But too many Whites run to Tim Wise as if he’s the first and only person to EVER articulate what he’s saying. Even he admits that PoC have BEEN telling Whites this same stuff for centuries. And too many Whites STOP at Tim Wise and do not investigate what PoC have been writing and saying. Why should they? Tim Wise said it all, right?
It’s gotten to the point where some White “anti-racists” lecture PoC on how to handle racism by quoting Tim Wise. Sorry, but the oppressor does not get to tell the oppressed how to respond to their oppression. That includes finger-wagging and tsk-tsking them about their alleged “unchecked cynicism” especially in a way that makes it seem that cynicism has no real root or was created in a vacuum.
I’ve been contemplating writing a post in my LJ about Whites expecting and exhorting PoC, especially Blacks, to stay passive and non-violent in the face of daily racial violence from microaggressions on up via the leveling of various cliches of how “two wrongs don’t make a right,” speculating and feigning patronizing concern regarding our mental states (our “unchecked cynicism” and those “chips on our shoulders” and how we must be bitter, depressed or somehow psychologically disturbed if we are at all angry over how we’re treated) and exhortations that we should “retain the moral high ground” in the face of constant racist onslaught. My feeling is that all this stressing on Black non-violent and non-retalitory action is about White fears of said retaliation. Black folk marching, singing, and filing long-shot lawsuits is one thing. Black folk knocking you on your butt puttin’ a bullet in dat a88 for being a racist dykk is a whole nuvvah.
I understand JuJuBe’s cynicism. I feel it myself more and more. Like I said, we’ve been telling White folks this same ish for CENTURIES. Supposedly, White are our intellectual superiors, so our primitive message must be easy for Whites to understand. So why does the message seem lost on them by and large? Why is it that if Whites are so against racism as most of them CLAIM, is White supremacist racism still here, healthy, entrenched and not budging? Why hasn’t it at least been replaced by another system of domination or even a racism based on some form of PoC-ness like Chinese supremacy since that country is coming up fast and will probably be our new overlords soon? Why have WIWL (well-intentioned White liberals) been so damn ineffective in dismantling racism? Why, if there are so many anti-racist Whites, do Whites still have such a difficult time treating PoC as fellow human beings?!
Oh, and I’m married to a WM too. That doesn’t mean I’m still not critical as hell about a lot that they do and think.
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JuJuBe,
You said: “As much as it pains me, and as much as it distresses me and even keeps me up at night to recognize that I am the child of a wicked race of people, it is the truth. Instead of denying the evils of the white race, more people should be striving to transcend that legacy.”
I too am one of those “children of a wicked race.” I am not denying the evils of the white race, and neither is my friend (BG), nor is Tim Wise. We aren’t denying anything. That’s why I keep saying I LIKE Tim Wise.
With regards to Tim Wise, you said:
“but basically, my friend told me that he does not trust a man who rails against a system that is providing his means of earning a living (the reason Tim Wise has the status Tim Wise has is because of the privilege his whiteness earns him, in other words)”
So, what is he supposed to do? Such a dilemma is a “danged if you do and danged if you don’t.” So, if he rails against that system while it supports him, then he is suspect, but if he doesn’t speak out, then he is just another white person not doing anything about it?
ALL we white folks are PART of that system! All of us make our living somehow inside that system. So, are we never to speak out? Or are we to quit our jobs because they are part of that system and live on the street? Do you think for one minute that Wise would be given the medium to rail against the system if he was not part of it? There are no “clean hands” for any of us. Unless we want to be homeless, living under a bridge……..we can’t escape the system. We ARE PART OF IT! We can challenge it, we can speak out about it, when we have the opportunity, we can take action…………..but we can’t escape it.
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Oh, and I’m married to a WM too. That doesn’t mean I’m still not critical as hell about a lot that they do and think.
Meaning that just because I’m married to a WP doesn’t mean I give all WP a pass nor am obligated to love all Whites or give them a pass. It’s like loving someone but realizing they come from a f88ked up, dysfunctional family. I am still critical of White supremacy and how various actions of Whites exhibit and reify that supremacy.
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And Tim Wise’s audience is definitely WP. He ain’t sayin’ nothin’ new that PoC didn’t already know.
I have issues because Tim Wise is becoming THE big name in race relations to the point he’s in danger of eclipsing PoC who’ve been working on this for decades but not getting the publicity. News folks are starting to only call him when talking about race in America. I think it’s worth looking at that the face of anti-racism in America being presented in the early 21st century is a WM and not a PoC.
And no one is expecting Tim Wise to wear a burlap sac and live in a cave. No one is expecting him to become an anti-racist monk and take a vow of poverty. But a blogger I follow even said that “Whites expect to get paid for what they expect PoC to do for free” regarding anti-racist work. And if it’s not paid in actual currency it’s being paid in accolades, pats on the back and all sorts of cookies and head. I think said blogger has a REAL point. PoC are EXPECTED to continually offer FREE education to Whites about how their racism hurts us even as it COSTS us to do so. And we’re expected to do this without hesitation and with grace, diligence and infinite patience.
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@Witchsistah,
Yes, you DID misunderstand me and continue to do so. It also appears that you misunderstood both the quote I posted from Baldwin as well as its context.
Where did I tell the oppressed how to respond to the oppressor? I quoted a black writer, James Baldwin. If you re-read that book, “The Fire Next Time,” you will know that Baldwin concludes the book with a warning that if things do not change in this country that violence is around the corner. I did not get the impression from the book that he
thinks black people should always be pacifists and non-retaliatory.
Below, I am copying from a post that I made earlier this evening that is in moderation, that would provide some context and help you to see that I did NOT write as if the “cynicism has no root and was created in a vacuum.”
@JuJuBe,
I did not take either yours or Witchsistah’s “suggestion” as an attack. However, both of you exhibited certain obvious assumptions…namely assuming that I HADN’T read any black anti-racism writers and activists.
I do appreciate the apology, and yes I forgive you. I also actually can appreciate your cynicism about the “anti-white racism crowd.” (that term is also new to me. I first saw it on this site). It may sound strange, but white people can have similar experiences. I have come to understand some of my black friends’ “paranoia” when it comes to white people, after some experiences of my own. One white person I know that I thought shared at least some of my views on this, revealed in a particularly atrocious way (by betraying the confidences of her black friends in a gathering of whites in order to maintain her “in” with that group) the “slipperiness” of white people claiming to be anti-racist.
Therefore, I do not take your comments as an attack. I believe you when you say you have past experiences that make you suspicious of white people and difficulty trusting their motives. Despite that though, I do feel compelled to point out your assumptions.
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@Witchsistah,
Yes, you DID misunderstand me and continue to do so. It also appears that you misunderstood both the quote I posted from Baldwin as well as its context.
Where did I tell the oppressed how to respond to the oppressor? I quoted a black writer, James Baldwin. If you re-read that book, “The Fire Next Time,” you will know that Baldwin concludes the book with a warning that if things do not change in this country that violence is around the corner. I did not get the impression from the book that he
thinks black people should always be pacifists and non-retaliatory
There is a post of mine that remains in moderation that would perhaps make my post that refers to cynicism a bit clearer. Until it gets out of moderation, I guess I will have to content myself with being misunderstood.
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Witchsistah said:
“And Tim Wise’s audience is definitely WP. He ain’t sayin’ nothin’ new that PoC didn’t already know.”
Yes, his audience is white people. They’re the ones who need to hear it. POC need to listen to other people of color on the subject of white privilege and racism. I agree. However I still think Tim Wise and those few other whites who are speaking out can get the attention of other white people where we can’t.
“Meaning that just because I’m married to a WP doesn’t mean I give all WP a pass nor am obligated to love all Whites or give them a pass. It’s like loving someone but realizing they come from a f88ked up, dysfunctional family. I am still critical of White supremacy and how various actions of Whites exhibit and reify that supremacy.”
So am I (married to a WM and I don’t sign off on everything whites do either, but I’m not going to beat up on the ones trying to do the right thing.
But a blogger I follow even said that “Whites expect to get paid for what they expect PoC to do for free” regarding anti-racist work. And if it’s not paid in actual currency it’s being paid in accolades, pats on the back and all sorts of cookies and head. I think said blogger has a REAL point. PoC are EXPECTED to continually offer FREE education to Whites about how their racism hurts us even as it COSTS us to do so. And we’re expected to do this without hesitation and with grace, diligence and infinite patience.
And as I said in my very first post:
“Should whites be willing to listen to Abagond first? ABSOLUTELY. But all KNOW that with most white people, they won’t (this a univeral truth in other white western countries, like Norway, where I live, too, not just in the U.S.). “
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@ Witchsistah,
With regards to your erroneous assumptions about my post mentioning cynicism……..I was NOT advising black people how to deal with racism. I was speaking from my own personal experience. I KNOW first hand how cynicism and bitterness can eat a person alive. And my cynicism and bitterness came from my dealings with white people, white privilege, and white racism.
See, after the beginning of my education about white privilege I felt compelled to do something about it. I thought that logically as white person who is part of that system that I should be able to somehow change that system and had a duty to do so.
The cynicism and bitterness came partly from the realization that when it came to changing the system and protecting people that I dearly loved (who happened to be people of color) that my white privilege didn’t mean doo-doo. Yeah, it brought me advantages. But it didn’t change anything for anyone else. I spent over 6 years fighting a legal battle to right just such a wrong……….to no effect. I lived, slept, and breathed that battle and sacrificed nearly everything for it. It changed NOTHING! I still saw black children’s lives being destroyed by vicious racism and NOTHING I said or did made a difference.
I watched people I loved (some of them children) suffer and I couldn’t do anything about it. I felt helpless. And I felt like I was part of an evil, corrupt system. For awhile, I started hating white people myself. And by hating white people, I was hating myself. Self-hatred is a destructive thing, regardless one’s color.
Yes, I am aware that for centuries black people have experienced FAR WORSE than what I have narrated above. I only mention it explain that I was speaking from my own experiences with bitterness and unchecked cynicism. It almost destroyed me. I became ate up with it. And I believe it would have destroyed me, if it hadn’t been for my friend, Blakgenius, who helped me see the road I was heading down and helped me recognize that it was actually bordering on self hatred.
I haven’t given up though. I do not believe anymore, however, that I can change the system. It is corrupt, utterly. I still do what I can, but I have accepted that I as an individual cannot change it. I can only possibly be a “voice crying in the wilderness,” and perhaps when given the opportunity, level the playing field so to speak. I can stand up to injustice and speak truth to power………but I know now……….that it doesn’t necessarily mean that anything is going to change.
“that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to STAND.” Ephesians 6:13
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@Witchsistah,
Your blogger friend is another one of those POC whites should listen to, but won’t. If they will listen to Tim Wise or other whites who tell th truth we’re going to have to be content with that-after all, it’s better they listen to him than not listen at all, just my humble opinion. Whether he’s making mony isn’t really the issue, whether he’s telling the truth and getting whites to hear him is.
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The thing is, the white folks who only want to listen to Tim WIse because he is white…. are they REALLY effective allies in the struggle for racial justice? Because it seems to me that when white folks say “Well, I cannot bear to be criticized or directed by a Black person (or any other race of person), so I am going to form my OWN anti-racist organization with a bunch of other white folks” we are not really accepting responsibility for ending racism at all. It seems like the old “yeah racism is wrong in theory, but I still want to be able to stay segregated” rhetoric to me. Are “anti-racists” who will only listen to a white man really anti-racist at all? Or are they just using the language of anti-racism because it sounds good in theory and they don’t have to get their hands messy by putting it into practice. It kind of reminds me of abolitionists who were opposed to slavery on moral grounds, but in now way wanted to have to have relationships with Black people on equal footing.
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So am I (married to a WM and I don’t sign off on everything whites do either, but I’m not going to beat up on the ones trying to do the right thing.
Sorry, but I do not see at all how Tim Wise is being “beat up on.” We really need to quit with the imagery of violent, irrational, ungrateful darkies attacking poor, put upon, they’re-just-trying-to-help-us Whites. I see no issue is critiquing HOW that help is being offered and the effects of said help especially if it does nothing but reify the system and make life more difficult for PoC. No one is telling Tim Wise to stfu and stfd. From what I’ve read of people critiquing him, and I’m one of them, is that folks want him to THINK about how American society is using HIM as an excuse not to have to listen to PoC talk about racism. In MY opinion, his response to that critique, mostly coming from PoC (and no, definitely not ALL PoC), has been disappointing.
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JuJuBe,
I’m with you. From what I’ve seen of most White so-called anti-racists online, what you’ve described is quite accurate. It’s just a new hipster label many of them have acquired like a new “ironic” t-shirt or a pair of $600, distressed skinny jeans.
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JuJuBe–
Not all, but a lot, seems firmly entrenched in their world where they can claim anti-racist credentials without ever having to establish any sort of relationship with any person who is not white.
RDKirk–
Now that you cause me to ponder it, I can’t think of any reason why a white person would must necessarily have a “relationship” with a non-white person to become opposed to racism.
And how do you know that Tim Wise does not have “any kind of relationship” with a black person?
JuJube–
I cannot go into all the details here, but basically, my friend told me that he does not trust a man who rails against a system that is providing his means of earning a living (the reason Tim Wise has the status Tim Wise has is because of the privilege his whiteness earns him, in other words) I cannot explain it as well as my friend did, but it makes a lot of sense.
RDKirk–
What? He lives in the United States of America. If you live in the United States of America and are earning a living, the system IS providing your means of earning a living. That would be me. That would be anyone living in the US. Nor can Tim Wise really cast away his white privilege any more than I can cast away my male privilege. If he enters a store and is not suspected of being a thief because he’s white–he can’t do anything about that that. He IS white. No, your friend makes no sense.
Jujube–
It would be nice if those of use who DO strive to promote justice could be saved if it came down to that, but the white race has acted as a cancer on this earth, and in order to kill cancer, some healthy cells have to die as well.
RDKirk–
Remind me not to vote for you as chancellor.
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Witchsistah and Jujube,
Well what would you have the man do? Shut up and say nothing about racism? Then he’s doing nothing at ll about racism. We’re going have to agree to disagree on this one. I’m done. Thank you ladies for being civil.
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RDKirK:
Remind me not to vote for you as chancellor.
Me:
LMAO! (I get the reference to Hitler, a jew who hated jews)
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JuJuBe–
It kind of reminds me of abolitionists who were opposed to slavery on moral grounds, but in now way wanted to have to have relationships with Black people on equal footing
RDKirk–
And you would rather still be a slave than for all those white people to have fought a bloody war ending slavery without wanting a “relationship” with black people? Are you really demanding that a white man love you before you’ll accept a tactical alliance with one?
Witchsistah–
From what I’ve read of people critiquing him, and I’m one of them, is that folks want him to THINK about how American society is using HIM as an excuse not to have to listen to PoC talk about racism.
RDKirk–
If you expect that ever to happen, don’t hold your breath. If you look at the history of abolition and civil rights, very little has ever been done as a result of some white person actually listening to some black person. Mostly we have been preaching to our own choir.
Much more often, certain whites have realized on their own that they were in sin and set out to do something about it. One exception I can think of is Charleton Heston, who did break the color barrier for blacks entering Hollywood unions at the specific behest of Martin Luther King.
But for the most part, the whites who have actually effected the changes did so on the basis of recognition of their own evil, not by being convinced by black advisers.
Don’t expect a racist to listen first to one of the very people he’s racist against. It could happen, but don’t expect it.
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RDKirk… once again, my perspective on the white anti-racist movement comes from that of a white person who is simply against racism, but refuses to align with a “white anti racist movement”. I prefer to work with the REAL experts on racism, not with people who claim to be experts.
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@ RDkirk,
You said: “Don’t expect a racist to listen first to one of the very people he’s racist against. It could happen, but don’t expect it.”
You are so right, about all of it. No, not much has changed from white people listening to black people. And no, no racist is going to listen to the people he’s racist against.
I think there are degrees of racism. That hood-wearing, cross-burning racist probably isn’t going to listen to ANYONE of any color, not even a Tim Wise. But his children and grandchildren might…….
There are degrees of racism, just as there are degrees of awareness in those whites who reject racism. Somewhere on here, Abagond has a great article about the stages a black person goes through with regards to their awareness of racism.
The same applies to whites and their awareness, too. It is a process and it occurs by degrees. Some people may not go as far across the spectrum as others, or spend years in particular stage., or never move past a certain stage.( I can’t remember if Abagond included this in his article, perhaps he did).
Depending on where a white person is in that process, he or she may be more open and receptive to Tim Wise than to a black person. Perhaps later……that person may learn to listen to blacks. That’s partly why I think what Wise is doing is so important.
However, I do think JuJuBe does have a point about wondering about those white anti-racists who self-segregate. But on that point, I would add that not everyone is at the same place so to speak, and that a white person who is trying to educate such white people must basically meet them where they are.
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Blackgenius,
I would request you actually READ what I WROTE and stop putting words in my mouth and motives in my head, but since you’re done there’s no point.
Basically, there seems to be a consensus that Whites in general will not listen to any PoC regarding racism (unless said PoC spouts the White supremacist party line). If that’s the case then why should PoC even bother wasting time, energy and breath on WP? Seems like we got our own ish to do and all Whites can do is pray it doesn’t involve incendiaries or projectile weaponry.
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Witchsistah–
Seems like we got our own ish to do and all Whites can do is pray it doesn’t involve incendiaries or projectile weaponry.
RDKirk–
That’s not something whites have to worry about.
When blacks turn to racial violence, it’s always within black neighborhoods.
When whites turn to racial violence, it’s also always within black neighborhoods. Whites don’t go in for the really big riots like the Tulsa riot (check Wikipedia. My grandparents, who were Tulsa residents, remembered it).
However, they do have their micro-riots from time to time, proxied by police officers.
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Seems like we got our own ish to do and all Whites can do is pray it doesn’t involve incendiaries or projectile weaponry.
Right, Witchsistah. how many assault rifles do YOU personally own – as opposed to, say, the local militia boys in your community, the vast majority of whom are white and racist?
Do you even know how to use any firearm more complicated than a one-shot rifle or a handgun?
RDKirk is correct: look at history and tell me one time where racial violence actually made some significant negative impact on whites.
What is in the water up there in the Yew Ess Uv Ey this week? So many Yank posters here have suddenly begun to bay for blood.
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Interesting the amount of women of colour in here who say they are married to WM but yet critizize white supremacy, that doesn’t make any sense.
Essentially that means that you have stil got to believe that there are some good white people out there and racism and white supremacy only exists because of a few bad apples.
The question we should ask ourselves is not whether white people are devils but what would happened if we did treat white people as if they were devils from the moment we came into contact with them to the present day ?
How can you build a black community when so many of us are prepared to lay down with them at night ?
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How can you build a black community when so many of us are prepared to lay down with them at night ?
Still not getting any, I see, ABM. 😀
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What you guys are missing, and what is central to Tim Wise’s identity & actual motives is he is a jew. It’s also the reason he is so well promoted. If you don’t understand Judaism and the Talmud then you will never be able to understand the “race issue” in this country and why it never seems to be resolved. The reason most of your grievances fall on deaf ears and are never resolved is because you are directing them to wrong party. If you think “jews” are White, you are mistaken. Jews do not consider themselves White (although they may falsely claim they are for immediate rhetorical effect), to the contrary they have an intense hatred for Whites & Blacks and all non-jews. Jews are really the ones who hold power in this country and they have had complete & uncontested control for 100 years. (Need convincing? Voltaire said: “To learn who rules over you simply find out who it is you cannot criticize.” Can you criticize Whites? yup, all day and all night. Can you criticize jews? Ask Mark Sanchez). While the vast majority of jewish power lies in the Federal Reserve’s ability to print money from paper, the parts of jewish power relevant to this discussion lie in 1) convincing you that jews have no power. 2) “multiculturalism” & ethnic tension. This is much more sinister, but equally true. Jews are always making sure the other races are in conflict with eachother (while Whites & Blacks have all their attention focused on each others throats the jews are free to do as they please).
If you make a sincere attempt to investigate my claims, you will be able to understand why we seem to be treading water in regard to race issues. Louis Farrakhan explains all this in youtube videos.
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I just watched a Tim Wise youtube clip on “White Priviledge” he broke it down and all of white America needs to listen to him. Especially some of the clueless ones and the ones in denial about racism that come to this blog and attack the black commenters and the moderator of this blog. I admit, i was suspecious of Wise in the beginning, but he is a great teacher when it comes to discussing whiteness, and how it began and how it evolved into the monster that it is in this society. I want to listen to more of his lectures.
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George, say goodbye, take some friends with you.
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Just watched this video of a talk by Tim Wise after his book “White Like Me”.
(http://youtu.be/oV-EDWzJuzk)
Concluded that
– his target audience is white people
– his talk is purely educational and has no call to action nor invites people to join any anti-racist movement.
In other words, white people can listen to his talk, feel enlightened, and then go back to their merry ways.
His entire points were
– white privilege exists in America
– there is still racism in this post-racial color-blind society.
The audience is for white people who don’t understand either of these.
For POC / non-white or even for more enlightened white people, listening to him is a real big DUH with no real educational value.
I don’t think his talk was of any real benefit to POC at all. It might tangentially have some benefit by enlightening white people, but even that is not guaranteed to actually accomplish anything. It might be valuable as initial training for a diversity manager at a large corporation – maybe.
If that is the definition of white anti-racist, I wonder what people would call a white person who actually goes out there to do something about racism.
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[…] Tim Wise […]
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I was listen to one Dr.welsings’s latest talk and at the end some asked what she thought of time wise and she said that he at said about her work ,that it was pseudo-scientific bullshit and she didn’t say anything further so I decided to check him out,couldn’t find any references by him of her ,but in the few youtube video’s of him speaking I found him to be fairly reasonable and insightful.
as to the negative opinion some have of him ,I think some black people will resent any white person regardless.
as to his alleged statement about dr.welsing ,its partly true.
but just like him,or anyone else no one I’ve ever read or listened to has all the answers.
his has insights to contribute and so does dr.welsing and many others.
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Tim Wise’s Speak Out Podcast is one of my favorites among many.
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His father was half-Jewish – the wrong half, according to Orthodox Jewish law. Neither Tim Wise (war be upon him) nor his father is actually halachically Jewish. They’re Gentiles with Jewish ancestry.
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