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Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so?

Sophen Loren

White women seem more beautiful than they are. Even though beauty is in the eye  of the beholder, many things point to a shift among beholders worldwide towards an idea of female beauty that is light-skinned, thin and more European looking.

That shift goes hand-in-hand with Westernization. East Asia and Black America are good examples:

East Asia: Double eyelid surgery has spread hand-in-hand with Westernization. So has a Eurasian idea of beauty. But not women lightening their skin: that goes back to the old days when only the well-to-do did not have to work in the fields.

Black America:

  • Hair: Black women had little desire to straighten their hair till they came to America – it certainly was not common in the West Africa that most of them came from. Instead it came from copying blacks in the 1800s who were better off. These better-off blacks had generally straighter hair for the same reason that they were better off: they had white blood relations.
  • Body shape: Black women who go to white universities favour a thinner sort of beauty than those who go to black universities.
  • Skin colour: Light-skinned women are generally considered to be better looking. The same is true in the cities of West Africa, yet far from the cities where people are less Westernized, skin colour seems to matter much less.

These changes make white women seem better looking than they would otherwise be.

Some of the beauty of white women is natural but some of it comes from looking at them through the white lens of Westernization.

People of colour apply that white lens to themselves too: it is what makes some think their their hair is not pretty, their nose is too wide, their skin too dark, their lips too big, their eyes all wrong or whatever it is that sets them apart from white people.

The power of white people to shape the world’s ideas of female beauty is clearly shown in the death of the hourglass figure.

In the 1960s Playboy models and Hollywood beauties had hourglass figures. Think of Raquel Welch, Brigitte Bardot or Sophia Loren. Then in 1967 came Twiggy. Back then even white people thought she was too thin and dangerously underfed. But fashion designers loved her: it was so much easier to design great-looking clothes for her kind of body. So the fashion industry shifted towards rail-thin models.

By the late 1970s anorexia appeared among White American girls. By 1979 Hollywood could call Bo Derek a “10” despite her lack of what used to be called a full figure. In America even Playboy rarely shows women with an hourglass figure anymore.

So now thin is considered beautiful among whites generally in both Europe and North America. It is spreading to East Asia and seems to be spreading to Black America too. Anorexia has reached even Nigeria. All this has taken place within living memory.

See also:

938 Responses

  1. It’s a little of both: some white women I work with are pretty, some are beautiful and other’s are stunning. But not all of them, like any group of people, are on the same level of beauty.

    US wants to tell us there is only ONE type of beauty yet with so many of us here, they know we won’t alway’s believe it. So they force it upon us daily to reinforce it. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the ones who “beholden -the – money” is making sure we hear what they are saying!

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  2. And abagond, I just noticed your “visitor locator” on the right: wow! so many people visit your page!

    I think that is so awesome! Keep up the good work Abagond.

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  3. Society makes them so. Living in The States, you can run into what I call the Stepford Wife Syndrome. You’ll see practically the same types of females (almost identical) everyday, with a sprinkle of POC females spread out. Yeah, there are plenty of white women I find attractive, but there are also plenty of POC’s I’d like to see as well, and I usually prefer the latter while getting radical with it due to the saturation of white beauty.

    Somehow, this reminds me of that Korean Air commercial, where it’s all white people, specifically highlighting the white woman w/ hair blowing in the wind and “legs’ gracing the screen, only to include actual Koreans at the end as stewardesses (who were actually cute)…talk about blatant!

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  4. Some are. And some are completely not. Most are of average appearance. Just like every other group of women.

    I don’t personally tend to think white women are more beautiful. They also weren’t the “ideal” where I’m from.

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  5. Somehow, this reminds me of that Korean Air commercial, where it’s all white people, specifically highlighting the white woman w/ hair blowing in the wind and “legs’ gracing the screen, only to include actual Koreans at the end as stewardesses (who were actually cute)…talk about blatant!

    Well, you have to take it in from a business perspective: Maybe most of their travelers (ie: Money spenders) are white. So they will try to appeal to them.

    If they were smart, they would also try venturing out but, again, they are looking at the money.Most of the US is white (about 70%). That doesn’t mean the full 70 has money but there’s a higher chance that 70 will spend money over the remaining 30 (everyone else).

    And I’m not forgiving them for leaving out the rest of the west: just taking things in from a business perspective. Capital likes demographics.

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  6. eeehhh… I won’t get caught on this one again. I think I said enuff what I know about the backround of the Thin is In ideology among fashion world. 😀

    But I do like Sophia Loren! I like women who look like women, black or white or brown or yellow or what ever. More than any particular body type, I’m attracted to women who are ok with themselves. That is the most important thing.

    It is very clear that the media is pushing the White is Right thing, sometimes more overtly, sometimes more hidden ways. I wonder how long they can do so, since more and more the audience is mixed.

    Maybe it is slowly changing, in the movies etc.?

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  7. We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.

    It has to do with testosterone levels.

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  8. Makeup does wonders.

    If women just had washed faces, ideas of beauty would be different.

    I think darker women have more beautiful faces, because their color naturally produces shadows and contours that make up is used to do.

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  9. “We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.”

    I love when people start assigning actual percentages to things that couldn’t possible know. It’s the science of “anecdotology”

    What are white penis size percentages? And how did you find out?

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  10. Y’all seem like a cool bunch, so I’ll be confessionary and honest:

    I realize that I tend to be attracted to light skinned black women at a higher rate than I am to non-lightskinned black women.

    But here’s the thing – the vast majority of white women I see are not attractive to me in the least. They’re just not pretty to me as often. Their light skin and straight hair and thin lips and noses do zilch for me, frequently.

    By what you’re saying above, it should be a continuum, where the women who posess the “whitest” features should be the most prized, but it’s not that way for me and I suspect many many MANY black men are probably on the same page as I am.

    My suspicion is that what we see with the idealization of lighter black women is really the idealization of women who are more racially mixed.

    We see this again and again with cultures who have “mixed” looks: Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.

    We don’t tend to think of it that way here in the US, because most of the mixing that happened in the United States was black with white (honestly, I don’t even really think that many black folks have that much Indian blood in them, at this point, be we have tons of white blood.)

    I’m not saying a purebread Nordic princess of superior aplomb will be fronted on – she won’t. But the simple fact of a Caucasian women having straight hair and small lips isn’t really rocking most black men’s worlds like that.

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  11. “US wants to tell us there is only ONE type of beauty yet with so many of us here, they know we won’t alway’s believe it. So they force it upon us daily to reinforce it. As the saying goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the ones who “beholden -the – money” is making sure we hear what they are saying!”

    well…said….beauty is just something that is relative to personal preference,which are shaped mostly due to conditioning and brainwashing…we’re. it’s hard to be in the western world and not be brainwashed w/ this white ideal.

    Chuck said…
    “We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.

    It has to do with testosterone levels.”

    Chuck…that’s your opinion. Although I can tell you right now bw testosterone level are no higher than the average female of any race. If it were then bw wouldn’t menstruate or be able to reproduce children…duh.

    However, your opinion is your opinion. However you form it and regardless of how brainwashed you may be that is your opinion….so if you think ww are more beautiful…good for you…go and get one 🙂

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  12. CDF I agree about lots of white women trying to do the stepford thing. I find the overwhelming number of dyed blondes I see among white women, especially young ones, really troubling. Some, if they already have lightish brown or reddish hair look fine with the dye blonde but so many of them just look horrible, especially if their real hair is really dark, and it just doesn’t match their skin tone. They look so much prettier with their own hair color but b/c of society they think blonde is best and I’ve seen terribly plain to (imho) unattractive white women who b/c of blondeness (natural or otherwise) be raved about as great beauties.

    It is a little imilar but not to the same degree as black women and our hair and obviously being naturally brunette isn’t going to cost a white woman a job and subject to ridicule by some in her community but more and more it seems like every white woman wants to be blonde and it is more and more prevalent.

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  13. “Hair: Black women had little desire to straighten their hair till they came to America – it certainly was not common in the West Africa that most of them came from. Instead it came from copying blacks in the 1800s who were better off. These better-off blacks had generally straighter hair for the same reason that they were better off: they had white blood relations.”

    Ummm … maybe if people just got off the case of and stopped obsessing over these “better-off blacks” with “straighter hair”, there wouldn’t be so many bad feelings over physical appearance. Asians may appreciate the beauty of Eurasians (as do most other groups) but they don’t seem to feel great jealousy and resentment towards them at the same time as expecting Eurasians to take care of them.

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  14. Hathor said:

    “If women just had washed faces, ideas of beauty would be different.

    I think darker women have more beautiful faces, because their color naturally produces shadows and contours that make up is used to do.”

    that is another thing, people forget that money can buy good looks and since on average white women are more economically stable than bw that already gives them an advantage in the beauty hierarchy…

    It’s easy to be goodlooking or think of yourself as good looking when

    a.) the majority of the women on tv look like you and the world tells you constantly how beautiful you are

    b.) you have money to afford good,nutritious food (that doesn’t make you fat), you can workout and afford a gym membership or trainer or just jog through your neighborhood w/out fear of being mugged or hitting a pothole.

    c.) you can afford makeup/nice clothes

    d.) you can go to mostly any store and find makeup that caters to your complexion…whereas most bw and women of color have to go to special makeup places for that…

    so money does buy good looks that is absolutely true…

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  15. “I’ve seen terribly plain to (imho) unattractive white women who b/c of blondeness (natural or otherwise) be raved about as great beauties.”

    *cough cough* Elin…

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  16. Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own, self-defined group to despised others (really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).

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  17. Elin was okay looking, perhaps she was “cute” at times but people went WAY overboard w/ calling her gorgeous and incredible looking…come on there are better looking blond women and better looking women in general

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  18. Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.

    most Ethiopian women look black, I am in an area where there are alot of Ethiopians and…uh they look black. I don’t know where people get the idea that Ethiopias look more “mixed’ than any other ethnicity in africa…yeah some do, but they are the minority and also Ethiopians have a wide array of looks, the Ethiopians in the South and North etc…can look quite different, but still black get it?

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  19. peanut:

    Chuck…that’s your opinion. Although I can tell you right now bw testosterone level are no higher than the average female of any race. If it were then bw wouldn’t menstruate or be able to reproduce children…duh.

    However, your opinion is your opinion. However you form it and regardless of how brainwashed you may be that is your opinion….so if you think ww are more beautiful…good for you…go and get one

    That’s my opinion huh? Here are three citations I quickly found on race and testosterone. It is common knowledge that blacks have higher testosterone levels than whites; this applies to women as well. In one study, older black women were found to have 51% higher levels of free testosterone in their blood than white women.

    And it is stupid to say that if black women had higher testosterone then they wouldn’t be able to menstruate or reproduce. Do you think that every single woman who has given birth has the exact same testosterone level? Some are higher than others, but differences can still exist while allowing for births.

    Men generally find more feminine women to be attractive. Do you reject that claim? If you don’t, then the fact that black women have more testosterone than white women implies that black women are generally less attractive to men.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6ZkzYk97BREC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=black+women+higher+testosterone+levels&source=bl&ots=-5F5ugzl3H&sig=Fx74r4xcQ6NpLPrwo6xKaack-lI&hl=en&ei=GpDZTLS1DIOBlAe7_PXuCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CD4Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=black%20women%20higher%20testosterone%20levels&f=false
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/92/2/509

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  20. and also Scipio Africanus….

    “My suspicion is that what we see with the idealization of lighter black women is really the idealization of women who are more racially mixed. ”

    So, do you think this “idealization of women who are more racially mixed…” applies to men as well. I’ve always been baffled as to why mixed/lighter type women are doted on but the same is not applied to men…it seems more acceptable to be a dark-skinned/ non-mixed man than a woman…what is that?

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  21. Great post! I’ve been wondering if you’d write this one, to go with black women post.

    Like Natasha said, most of the white women are average looking (surprise, surprise). It’s not surprising. There are also stunningly beautiful ones. And the ugly ones. <- Of course, it all depends on who you're talking to. These things are subjective.

    But it leads us to another issue: is it possible to say which of our preferences are truly subjective and unique to us, and which are socially constructed. I am not even sure if "truly subjective" preferences exist.

    So, people all over the world are brainwashed in seeing white beauty as THE beauty, and a standard to measure all the women.

    We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.

    Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

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  22. “Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own, self-defined group to despised others (really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).”

    Well, let’s pick apart the statement you just made:

    “Once again Abagond displays his child-like racism…”

    There is NOTHING “child like” about racism. It is an Adult disease which children are TAUGHT. Further, YOUR idea of racism is mixed with critique. We are discussing an issue. No one is being racist and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinon.

    “in which he attributes the blame for the shortcomings of his own self-defined group to despised others…”

    “His own” has two interpretations: his own thoughts or his own race. Which one are you referring to?

    “(really anyone a few shades lighter than Whoopi Goldberg).”

    Do you really think many of us are similar in shade to Whoopi? I”m am a helluva lot lighter than her and i do not look mixed.

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  23. I don’t personally tend to think white women are more beautiful. They also weren’t the “ideal” where I’m from.

    Same. Honestly, where I’m from, no one talks about who’s “most beautiful” but White people are pretty comfortable dogging each other’s looks, especially (for women) super-pale skin, stringy blonde hair, and noses that are “too” pointy. Blonde hair + blue eyes won’t get you very far here. But obviously I live in an alternate reality. 🙂

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  24. Peanut,
    I’m referring to the perception. The perception is that many/most people form the horn of Africa and maybe Northern Sudan have a”different” kind of look than the range of looks we see from most of the rest of sub-Saharan Africa.

    Black men check for Ethiopian women alot. The straight hair and facial features that are prevalent among many of the people from that corner of Africa probably plays a role in that.

    I understand the range of ethnicities and cultures within Ethipia. I’m talking about the ones you’d see, say, in DC, or LA. Are you saying that the Ethiopian girls I used to see in Dream, in DC on a Friday night, are indistinguishable from a girl from Lagos, or Kinshasa, or North Philly? I very much see a difference on a regular basis. If you don’t…

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  25. Black men check for Ethiopian women alot. The straight hair and facial features that are prevalent among many of the people from that corner of Africa probably plays a role in that.

    I’m not too far from DC and i don’t know what you’re seeing, but i don’t see many ethiopian women w/ straight hair and their facial features look…like a diverse range of facial features i would see anywhere in africa…i see Eithopian women dark brown, reddish brown and occassionally a light yellow, most of them have kinky or very kinky hair. I see them wearing cornrows…etc…I just don’t understand where this “perception”comes from…

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  26. in my experience…Ethiopian women tend to date other Ethiopian men…i’m not saying they don’t date other black american men…but I don’t see it that often to be honest…

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  27. Peanut,
    I’ll take you at your word that you see no difference.

    And I was actually going to mention that in my experience
    there is a difference in the dating habvits of Ethiopian women who are recent arrivals (i.e., haven’t been in the US very long or grew up in Ethiopia) versus the ones who were born and raised here or came when they were very young. The Ethiopian women I went to college with mostly fell into teh latter group and they dated non-Ethio black guys all the time.

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  28. @ Chuck

    Chuck, since you’re familiar with the references you posted above, can you please just pull and post the quotes from them that say that Black women have a higher testosterone rate than other women?

    I’m not saying it’s not true, but it would save a lot of time, for all concerned, if you could pull a few quotes from the text.

    Thank you.

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  29. Of course it’s mostly society that feels the need to cram this ish down our collective throats! It’s patently obvious to anyone with two eyes, a functioning brain, and the ability to analyze and comprehend data.

    I, personally, don’t really care about other people’s opinions; I’m sure that most people don’t really care about mine, either. I’ve had people become offended with me for giving them MY opinion of something when they asked for it! I say, “Why get angry? You asked for MY opinion and I gave it to you!”

    Digressing here…let me note a personal story of something that happened to me in Jr. High school. I played volleyball and was damned good at it; so good in fact, that I played Varsity even though I was in 8th grade. One of the girls on the team, who was a senior at the time, always had guys tripping over their tongues because they thought that she was “a hot piece” with a “nice ass”. I recall looking at her ass one day, then comparing it to mine. How funny that the ass they raved over was a flat pancake, while mine was (and still is) a pert, perky, tight round bum! She was a skinny, scrawny, 5’6″ 105# weakling, but she was “hot” because she dyed her black hair blonde. Me? I was 5’8″ and weighed 120# and had the hardbody from hell, but because I wasn’t ‘mighty whitey’ I wasn’t even given a second glance! I laughed about it then, and I still laugh about that to this day…if I lived my life according to what others expect, I would be a miserable person!

    I don’t like Kool-aid so I don’t drink it. Others would be wise to do the same, no? : )

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  30. P.S. – the ‘hourglass’ figure that most people tout is never truly natural…that’s what corsets and bustiers are for! It’s called redistribution…

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  31. @sheree
    You do have a point in regards to the business model. The thought did come to mind after viewing it a view times. The visuals just came off a bit watered down for my tastes…

    @LJ
    From my high school days looking at dirty blonds w/ roots of their true hair color showing, all the way to the university I work at, where you’d think it was an assembly line AKA The Clone Wars…and yeah, those with natural hair color look a lot better!

    @sepultura13
    Interesting tale! It’s almost comedic to hear folks clamor over standards such as that, only to be confused as to what exactly they’re looking at!

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  32. Abagond:

    Blackwomen gave beauty to all women, but they don’t get the credit. Whitewomen utilize various aspects of black beauty in american and european culture, and act as if they created it. The vast majority of whitewomen in tv and film are either southern, italian, jewish, latin, or middle-eastern. As a general rule, you’re not gonna see a lot of “real” whitewomen in Maxim, FHM, or Cosmo. Pure whitewomen have pale pinkish skin, blonde hair, thin noses, thin lips, small breasts, and flat butts. Blackwomen beat whitewomen in every category, and that’s a bonafide fact, not an opinion. Whitemen think that kissing the ass of whitewomen will make them stay loyal to them, but they’re wasting their time. Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with. Whitewomen want to maintain the political and economic clout they have attained due in large part to slavery and colonialism, which explains why sistas have such a hard time in the fashion and modeling industry……If whitewomen are so much better looking, why block access for blackwomen and other women of african and asian ancestry? Money and power are the motivating factors, not beauty!!!

    Liked by 1 person


  33. @Tyrone, ita
    “Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with.”

    Good post.

    Liked by 1 person


  34. Tyrone said…
    “Blackwomen gave beauty to all women, but they don’t get the credit. Whitewomen utilize various aspects of black beauty in american and european culture, and act as if they created it. The vast majority of whitewomen in tv and film are either southern, italian, jewish, latin, or middle-eastern. As a general rule, you’re not gonna see a lot of “real” whitewomen in Maxim, FHM, or Cosmo. Pure whitewomen have pale pinkish skin, blonde hair, thin noses, thin lips, small breasts, and flat butts. Blackwomen beat whitewomen in every category, and that’s a bonafide fact, not an opinion. ”

    I don’t think the purpose of this post is to take away from the beauty of white women. There are some beautiful white women who have all the features you just mentioned (small frame, pale skin,thin lips etc.) and they ARE beautiful. There is no one set standard for beauty, I think that was the point of the post…I agree that bw are definitely discriminated against and our beauty is never given credit, and yes eurocentric beauty IS shoved at people above anything else, but that doesn’t mean white women aren’t beautiful in their own right. Beauty is beauty. I don’t think that bw should become the beauty standard or be seen as superior anymore than I think ww should…I think the beauty standard should be eliminated and people should be seen as beautiful on an individual basis and accepted as who they are…

    all i want is for bw to get their due respect and stop alienating bw for not meeting these societal, eurocentric ideals…I know that’s all I ask nothing more nothing less.

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  35. I do agree that accepting black, asian and other types of beauty would pose a threat to eurocentric beauty ideals only because people would learn that there is no superior beauty…one race does NOT have a monopoly on beauty and there is a wide and diverse face when it comes to beauty…

    so people just need to stop thinking that one race has a monopoly on beauty…that’s ridiculous and racist…

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  36. sepultura13, i agree. don’t be fooled by the so called hourglass shape because women back then wore certain outfits to make them look curvy and womanly.

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  37. Glad to see you’ve taken up my suggestion for this post (Also endorsed by Maria) Abagond.

    Or did you already have it in mind?

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/are-black-women-ugly-or-is-it-racism-that-makes-them-seem-so/#comment-61286

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  38. i agree with peanut. i don’t think any woman of race is better than the other. i’ve seen beautiful white women who are natural and don’t get all that unnecessary stuff on them. charlize theron, demi lavato, just to name a few white women who i think are gorgeous. black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due. but i won’t be so quick to put white women down to make a point because it’s wrong and it’s just as bad as the media making black women feel bad about not being thin. to hell with a beauty standard because beauty is everywhere, skinny, thick, big, short, tall, black, white, or whatever: we’re all beautiful and it’s time we start seeing that.

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  39. @ Tyrone

    I agree with peanut.

    Everyone has their own personal preferences, but the point of the post is not to replace one kind of racial prejudice with another.

    No “kind” of women has to beat out any other “kind.” It’s just a case of different forms of beauty that can be perceived and appreciated differently by different people.

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  40. I mean, even though she is overhyped, I still think Megan Fox is very beautiful, I thought she was pretty when she was in Mary Kate and Ashely movie and that was before she became overhyped. She has thin lips, small frame, pale skin, granted she isn’t a blond, but is she not beautiful just because she has those things??

    Same thing applies to people who take every opportunity to degrade black beauty. People will say, oh dark skin is unattractive, kinky-hair is bad, ‘fat’women are ugly…Well all we have to do is look at this blog to see that these stereotypes aren’t true…we can look at many thick,dark-skinned bw on this very blog and see beauty…

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  41. White women appear less attractive to me than they really are.

    And the importance you place on the “hour glass” figure is just as damaging as the ‘rail thin’ ideal

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  42. The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.

    Taylor Swift
    Lady Gaga
    Katy Perry
    Fergie(Black eye peas)
    Kesha

    While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.

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  43. @Redman1000

    Interesting point. Reminds me of the “green” movement, though I’d say the vast majority of Earth’s citizens have been living “green” either by no choice or since time began.

    I’ve also noticed how the so-called “geeky chick” is popular, especially when viewing shows on G4TV and general gaming communities. I would say the tomboy chick as well, but that doesn’t fit the usual trend.

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  44. “And the importance you place on the “hour glass” figure is just as damaging as the ‘rail thin’ ideal”

    I was trying to resist commenting on this post. But I must say, I couldn’t agree more.

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  45. Redman1000 says,
    The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.
    Taylor Swift
    Lady Gaga
    Katy Perry
    Fergie(Black eye peas)
    Kesha
    While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.

    laromana says,
    Redman1000, this is an excellent observation. It’s dishearthening to see this ANTI-BW trend in the American music and enterntainment industries.

    lil’vina says,
    black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due

    laromana says,
    lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
    I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.). An excellent example of this is Sophia Loren. Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).

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  46. Redman1000
    The one thing I’m staring to notice is a lot of white women with minimum musical talent and average looks becoming very successful.

    Taylor Swift
    Lady Gaga
    Katy Perry
    Fergie(Black eye peas)
    Kesha

    While dark skin black female musicians need to be extraordinarily talented like Jennifer Hudson, Lauren Hill or Whitney Houston.
    ——————————————————————–

    I think Taylor Swift is gorgeous, stunning even, facially.
    But, I do agree that those you listed is category A , have average talent at best;Lady Gaga is comfortable with pushing the envelope, and her voice is pretty good actually,so she has that in her favor.

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  47. Taylor Swift is cute, IMO. The others, not so much. Kesha is plain annoying. She should stay away from “rapping”.

    peanut,

    “I don’t think that bw should become the beauty standard or be seen as superior anymore than I think ww should…one race does NOT have a monopoly on beauty and there is a wide and diverse face when it comes to beauty”

    Co-sign.

    Like


  48. “black women have always been bashed for our looks since the beginning of time and all we ask for is give credit when it’s due.”

    Actually no.

    At one point, everybody was Black and living in Africa – according to anthropologists. In fact, it was probably lighter skin that first seemed out of place and abnormal.

    Like


  49. Laramona, I agree. Any time you see a non black woman who has features like a black woman(Kim kardashian, Jennifer Lopez, Angelina Jolie, Scarlett johanson) they are praised as beautiful. I’m not saying women of other races can’t acheive this look but why is it okay for them to be praised but not black women who’ve had it all their life? Guess I’ll never understand that.

    Like


  50. There are beautiful White women, Sophia Loren for one, I think she is flat out gorgeous but I saw some women in the “Nous sommes tres belles” post for example, that were just as lovely.

    Men have been quite dismissive of women for ages, Blacks have been dismissed for a while as well, so why is it whenever the subject of “women” comes up, its all about “hot or not” and the bottom line is always pale + whatever body type is in style? We’ve been forced fed this ideology and very little else.

    Liked by 1 person


  51. Chuck,
    Women whose ancestors come from tropical or sub tropical zones, usually enter puberty earlier. I would assume they would also enter menopause earlier, which would account for their testosterone level to be higher than a woman who isn’t in menopause.

    Like


  52. This . . ..hmm
    I don’t believe that individual ideas of beauty for young women are shaped (at the all important young ages) by the media as much as they are shaped by their parents and those really responsible for molding them.

    I go to a Historically White University, and I’m more than proud of my wide hipped, natural hair, Caribbean body.

    Like


  53. @ chuk: somehow I don’t buy your testosterone idea. If blacks have higher leves of that, they would be the ones opressing others, wouldn’t they? Also, wouldn’t that make the white males more feminine than blacks?

    Hmm… Maybe you tried to convey that to us??

    Like


  54. White women are used to sell products more than other ethnic groups of women. Advertisers sell and image then sell a product to support it, or help the individual build it, hence all the self mutilation (‘beautification’) minority women in these nations that engage use white women in that fashion…

    Like


  55. @ lil’vina

    those women (dont forget christina hendricks) get praised b/c they have all the features of black women but none of the hair and skin tone…ie they are white….

    Like


  56. @ Hathor

    Except that I can’t find any direct references to higher testosterone levels in Chuck’s citations… and I’m beginning to seriously wonder if Chuck even knows where the references are himself.

    Like


  57. just discount Chuck’s comment….

    Like


  58. I find it interesting that when Chuck stated his opinion that the top percent of white women are more beautiful than the top percent of black women, people just nodded and told him that was his opinion, end of story, “go find him one” (a white woman). When Tyrone essentially says the opposite by stating his opinion that black women are more beautiful than white women, a number of people go on diatribes naming beautiful white women, how the goal isn’t to replace one from of beauty with the other, etc. Isn’t his opinion opinion too, or is that only the case when that opinion is part of the norm? Not that I don’t agree with peanut or King, but the implicit assumption that preference for white women “makes sense” while preference for black women is somehow politicized and problematic is becoming more and more annoying.

    I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.

    Liked by 1 person


  59. @laromana
    Where/When did Sophia Loren say that one of her grandparents was Black?

    Like


  60. @ Nate

    Really? did I just nod???

    Like


  61. @ King

    No. You (and I think only you) did not.

    Like


  62. Why are Asian women over-represented as telly news girls in US, Canada, UK, Australia etc. in proportion to their numbers in the general populations of those societies?

    Like


  63. @ Nate

    Well, at least I asked Chuck about his testosterone explanation above… even though I find his ridiculous HBD beliefs to be the epitome of nonsense…

    I wonder why he hasn’t answered yet?

    Like


  64. This post is odd to me. Aren’t all ideas of beauty of subjective? It just makes me lightheaded to read that you objectively believe white women are less attractive than society says they are, who are you to make such claims? As far as what society is trying to tell you is beautiful, can’t we just point out the obvious? This is a consumer society, filled primarily with white people. White people are marketed to, with white things. The way you phrase things sometimes Abagond, you seem to think white peoples main objective is to demoralize black people rather than the obvious, which is sell things. It is impossible to determine what will factor into someones personal tastes for women, but it includes a lot of things. Some of it is all types of marketing, their DNA, perhaps personal experience blah blah. You can’t come up with a percentage of what makes it up, but it is different from person to person. Not one single anecdote from a poster here is any kind of evidence of what society thinks either.

    Like


  65. @Chuck,

    Black women have almost every primary feminine physical characteristic associated with the adult female…almost every single one, buddy!

    I respect that you may have a preference for white or Asian females but I promise right here that to attempt to impose some lessor feminine status on Black women( by subtracting from their value as females) is a huge mistake!

    You can thus carry on peddling this stuff about testosterones being evident of Black female physical de-femininity (and I happen to agree with you as far as the levels of testosterone existent in Black females in comparison to other races of females) but you do so at your own risk.

    But like I say: have your physical preferences, I have mine. Serena Williams happens to epitomise my preference.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  66. Sure white women are beautiful. But absolutely, their beauty is exaggerated by social conditioning.

    Given the nature of the US entertainment juggernaut, people the world over get the dominant US standard of beauty beamed into their TV sets and plastered on their billboards. Of course that has an influence.

    Personally, I’m not so much into white women, although I tend to find women who are white and mixed with something else very appealing indeed. On appearance alone, I find black or Asian women better looking; but then, that is entirely my personal preference. I don’t claim that there is some empirical scientific theory that backs this up, as Chuck was attempting to do earlier.

    Next – blue is a better colour than red! Scientific studies prove it to be true!

    Like


  67. Nate, you’re right.

    I should have said more to Chuck. But his comment was just so stupid that I didnt’ want to waste time on it. But, you are right in what you said…if Chuck can make remarks that are degrading to bw, then I guess Tyrone should be able to make comments degrading to ww…in all fairness. you’re right. I apologize. I guess i’m so used to bw being disparaged on the internet somethings I just don’t bother to argue over, while other things I do…

    Like


  68. @ Menelik Charles:

    Serena Williams? Not for me.
    But it’s all good. Vive la difference!

    Like


  69. I was just pointing out that my qualm is not that I want bw to be looked at as superior, I just want fair-treatment. Also, I don’t understand why people need to constantly bash bw and uplift ww at the same time…if ww are so great, then get the f*ck off this blog, get your azz out there and get one… and leave the rest of us in peace.

    See, I don’t care if someone prefers ww or not…just don’t degrade me in the process. Get a life and stop sitting on the internet lusting after “hot ww,” when you probably can’t even get that woman to look twice at you in reality…

    Like


  70. Funny note about Chuck’s first link: It also said black women have higher estradiol levels. Estradiol is responsible for secondary sexual characteristics and maintenance of pregnancy. Couldnt one argue black women re more feminine because of this?

    I suppose so, but most of us here dont have agendas to undermine the femininity of non-black women…

    Like


  71. The classic bw are masculine stereotype is to be expected and its also becoming played out. Now people are using pseudo-scientific articles to justify the de-feminization of bw…grand.

    Well ,since bw are so testosterone-rich and were so masculine…I say we all join together and create a bw, testosterone army, go out and take over the world…why not? Since we’re so masculine and strong and full of testosterone….i mean some of yall need to be careful what you say…cuz bw and our testosterone are coming to get you… *rolls eyes/sarcasm*

    Like


  72. @ young sister Y,

    that’s EXACTLY what I saw but I was keeping it back until (or unless) Chuck declined my advice to stay away from this line of ‘debate’! When I say dark-skinned Negroid-featured females are the most physically envied and desired females at the level of the sub-conscious (sub-conscious because white men have CONSCIOUSLY imposed their females upon the rest of the coloured world) I can absolutely prove it!

    The reader may not like my adoration of the Amazonian Serena Williams but (no pun intended) she has far more feminine physical characteristics than either you typical or Asian or white female.

    “And what physically defines a female?” you may ask. Well, don’t ask is my advice because you may not like the answer!

    Good day America!

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  73. @ Rolo

    The vast majority of white people are brunette’s and are no where near thin. If advertising and the media was really about simply selling white to white people, then we’d see the average white person all over the TV screens. Instead we see thin blonds, who even the average white person (whom are supposed to be automatically beautiful) are forced to envy and swoon over.

    Like


  74. @peanut- I’d be all up for that, but I have a mani-pedi tomorrow. Can we schedule that world take over for say…Friday? After Lattes of course?

    As far as white women being the standard of beauty and our socialization towards acceptance of that fact; yes I can definitely agree that, without said socialization, they would not be placed on an aesthetic pedestal as often as they are.

    I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expressed/es envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful, are thinner, or have a “better mate” than she BELIEVES she does/is. It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too and fully believe that they are more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.

    As far as my testosterone. It unfortunately did not save me from getting my butt kicked the night I thought I could “play wrestle” my army buddy during a drinking binge. *wince* LOL!

    Like


  75. I mean maybe that’s what all this is about…this WHOLE situation, maybe people are just legtimately fearful of bw, so to keep us in our place they gotta degrade us w/ these stereotypes…hmmm…something to ponder…

    Like


  76. People of colour apply that white lens to themselves too: it is what makes some think their their hair is not pretty, their nose is too wide, their skin too dark, their lips too big, their eyes all wrong or whatever it is that sets them apart from white people.

    When I was younger, I remember children (white) making fun of my eyes by pulling the corners. I wanted to look more like them to the point I even considered having surgery to make my eyes bigger. I seriously thought something was wrong with me. Of course, there was nothing wrong with me.

    Like


  77. torchandlyre said…
    “I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expressed/es envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful, are thinner, or have a “better mate” than she BELIEVES she does/is. It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too and fully believe that they are more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.”

    Yeah, it aint just ww that do that either…asian women do that, white latinas do that…it seems like so many people just got the idea that no matter how ugly and busted they are… there’s always a bw beneath them…

    torchandlyre…
    “As far as my testosterone. It unfortunately did not save me from getting my butt kicked the night I thought I could “play wrestle” my army buddy during a drinking binge. *wince* LOL!”

    that’s another thing…its a damn shame our testosterone doesn’t stop bw from being molested/abused/ raped at a rate far higher than our “less testosterone” prone white counterparts. It’s a damn shame…man I WISH that testosterone would start to kick in…

    Like


  78. By the late 1970s anorexia appeared among White American girls. By 1979 Hollywood could call Bo Derek a “10″ despite her lack of what used to be called a full figure. In America even Playboy rarely shows women with an hourglass figure anymore.

    Bo Derek’s figure not only comes to mind. I remember how Bo Derek made it “cool” and popular by sporting cornrow braids. Wth? How is it she made it hip and happening when BW have done that particular style for years?

    Like


  79. torchandlyre said:

    I’m sure any black female can attest to having that one white female friend who covertly expresses envy or resentment if you get more attention, are more beautiful… than she BELIEVES she is… It’s not just the men who peddle this, the women buy into it too, and fully believe that they’re more desirable than we are AT ALL TIMES, regardless of plain observation to the contrary.

    Menelik says:

    with respect, a sense of self-entitlement is NOT the same as white white women believing they’re more aesthetically attractive than Black females. I strongly suspect (and I have supporting evidence) that white women in the main envy Black women. Not those ‘Black’ women dipped in caramel but those dipped in chocolate.

    Menelik Charles
    London UK

    Like


  80. Nate wrote: “I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.”

    ITA.

    Like


  81. did anyone else notice that chuck has found his ‘evidence’ just by typing ‘black women higher testosterone’ into google (follow the link and you can see for yourself)?
    and that his ‘study’ is a citation of a specific research group of american women in their first trimester of pregnancy?
    anyone else see any difficulties extrapolating AT ALL regarding BW and WW based on this pathetic shred of evidence?

    Like


  82. Ok, Ok i get it…black women are just absolutely horrid to behold. The mere thought of us being feminine seems to be too much work for others to comprehend.

    If you prefer white women over black women, fine.

    If you prefer light-skinned women with straight hair and keen features over dark-skinned women with kinky hair and strong features, so be it.

    Just stop talking about us like we’re supposed to be Ok with the fact that we are the most undesirable and unattractive group of women.

    Abagond, as much as I appreciate you making threads like this, I feel like the only thing it did was make way for comments to justify why people prefer white women or women who are light-skinned over dark-skinned black women.

    So yeah, I get it…there’s never been a day that I haven’t because of the constant reminder of such.

    Like


  83. and you agreed w/ Chuck on his testosterone comments btw…i hope everyone read that…

    “You can thus carry on peddling this stuff about testosterones being evident of Black female physical de-femininity (and I happen to agree with you as far as the levels of testosterone existent in Black females in comparison to other races of females) but you do so at your own risk.”

    Like


  84. Damn, if my testosterone were higher…ooo i’d be careful…ooo

    Like


  85. so back to what i was saying before i was rudely interrupted…

    if bw had such high levels of testosterone then maybe bw wouldn’t be abused, raped, and made to be slaves (to do this day) at an unprecented rate…maybe bw wouldn’t be forced into sexual slavery in countries throughout the middle east and europe…i wish our testosterone would have prevented these things from happening…

    Like


  86. @peanut- Me too. Perhaps we can do some kind of arm-chair BS analysis for this. Maybe our testosterone levels are sniffed out by predatory men and their biology rewires to them not think of us as women any more but equals. Equals that can be conquered…*rubs chin*

    Nah! It’s just because if and when something happens to us it won’t make the news and the police will barely search. LOL!

    That’s not funny. But it is. That’s why I’m not having children and sticking with cats. Think of what my daughters would be born into.

    Like


  87. torchandlyre,
    “Nah! It’s just because if and when something happens to us it won’t make the news and the police will barely search. LOL!

    That’s not funny. But it is. That’s why I’m not having children and sticking with cats. Think of what my daughters would be born into.”

    Yes, when we go missing and no one searches…I guess its cuz they think our testosterone levels will protect us from predators and there is no need to send out police to recover us cuz we’re so street-smart and testosterone prone…it all makes sense now.

    Like


  88. @ Menelik Charles

    Thats funny. I wrote up a whole rebuttal but decided Chuck should be ignored. But Since people decided to go for it I just wanted to add that tidbit.

    Also one of the articles linked is merely an abstract. Anyone who does research knows abstracts dont “tell the whole truth”. Not because the researchers have something to hide, but the abstracts are used to “catch” your attention and make you want to read the entire research paper! They are merely previews.

    @peanut

    LMAO, I have tests all this week, but Im free starting Friday. We can take over the world then!

    Like


  89. They are not only made to be beautiful, but are made to be the standard of what beauty is especially in America. When one is asked to picture what a beautiful American woman would look like chances are great that they will picture a blonde, blue-eyed white woman, and thanks to white domination with most of the world, some girls of other ethnicities want to have white women’s physical qualities.

    It’s sad because I find beauty in all women. I especially like thickness on a woman in certain areas 🙂 Still, beauty in all women must be appreciated, but here in the west, it’s a rare occurrance.

    Like


  90. “Thats funny. I wrote up a whole rebuttal but decided Chuck should be ignored. But Since people decided to go for it I just wanted to add that tidbit.”

    that’s what my intent was to ignore his comment, but as it was brought to my intention if i’m gonna give someone a pass on their views, then I should have given Tyrone a pass for his same views…

    Like


  91. I was expecting a battlefield. But it’s so quiet in here compared to previous posts of this nature.

    Maybe it’s just the calm before the testosterone storm.

    Like


  92. abagond are you here?

    Like


  93. I would like to apologize to Tyrone…even though I still meant what I said about beauty. Tyrone does have a right to his opinion just as Chuck does and people have the right to disagree, but he does have a right and atleast (unlike some) tyrone was TRYING to defend bw from the many insults hurled at our testosterone-prone likeness…

    Like


  94. so thank you tyrone for trying to defend bw…although i don’t agree w/ everything you said…i appreciate you trying to defend us…

    Like


  95. the topic is also about how white female beauty affects WOC perception of their own beauty…it is very fitting then (in my opinion) to mention bw and perceptions of masculinity

    Like


  96. White women are held up in this society as the epitome of femininity and bw are seen as the opposite, masculine…this perception colors how many people view our beauty…some people see darker skin as automatically being masculine and less beautiful than lighter skin and that is due largely to the white female beauty being placed on a pedestal above all other types of beauty…and now we’ve got people trying to use pseudo-science as an excuse to further demoralize and defeminize black female beauty…

    Like


  97. some people see long straight hair as beautiful. leigh mentioned how she was made to see the shape of her eyes as inferior. these white female beauty ideals affect everyone and it is very DESTRUCTIVE to only champion one form of beauty as the only form of beauty. This is a diverse country and people need to see a diverse range of beauty.

    As a bw, we’re put on the bottom of the hierarchy when it comes to beauty and on top of that we’re made to seem masculine. So it’s incredibly annoying to see people making comments (whether black or white) about bw being masculine and having higher testosterone levels…if I was a young black girl reading this why would I want to be made to feel that my natural look was less feminine and beautiful than other women? Why would I want people passing around pseudo-scientific articles explaining WHY bw are less feminine and less beautiful than other women??

    Like


  98. contrary to popular belief in these parts, the thin look is not synonymous with Europeans. Some Europeans are built studier than others. The same can said of Africans who vary in height and built according to ethnic group and even thin, there is variety.

    Sara Bartman’s body type isn’t common among African women.

    Like


  99. Kid W/Golden Arms
    White women are used to sell products more than other ethnic groups of women. Advertisers sell and image then sell a product to support it,

    because they are selling to a largly white audience. People like to see themselves in models.

    China is a just emerging audience for Western goods. China(unlike Japan) seems to like seeing Asian models so you’re seeing more Asian models used in high fashion.

    Like


  100. peanut
    Ethiopian women, Dominican and Brazilian women, Mediterranean women, Phillipinas, Bajan and Trini women, etc.
    most Ethiopian women look black, I am in an area where there are alot of Ethiopians and…uh they look black. I don’t know where people get the idea that Ethiopias look more “mixed’ than any other ethnicity in africa…yeah some do, but they are the minority and also Ethiopians have a wide array of looks, the Ethiopians in the South and North etc…can look quite different, but still black get it?

    As someone who is part Ethiopian. Thank you for this^^^. Some of us even look like African-Americans and West Africans.

    Like


  101. I find it funny that you all reject my citations or seek to qualify them when I am the only one who has provided a shred of empircal evidence to this debate.

    The rest of you are arguing from some grand notion of “love is colorblind” which has no basis in fact either. Your argument just happens to be more socially acceptable than mine.

    The truth of the matter is this: men are more turned on by and attracted to post-pubescent women when the gap between the man’s testosterone and woman’s testosterone is greatest.

    And the truth is that the male-female gap reaches a nadir when we are talking about black women, on average. Of course, this doesn’t apply to any of the black women here.

    Men are the arbiters of the valuation of what we are talking about here; their attractions decide the debate. Men of all races seem more attracted to women with lower testosterone levels than the opposite. Asian women and dainty white women are the ideal because that’s what men find most attractive not because society has forced this to happen.

    Of course, I must caveat this all by saying that there are plenty of attractive black women out there.

    I’d be willing to tackle Menelik Charles’ theory that white men hold Negroidal women as their subconscious ideal if only he would let us in on his thesis.

    Like


  102. I just deleted quite a few comments by Menelik, Peanut and Dr Vagrant X. Rape and abuse of black women is off-topic.

    Like


  103. i was actually going to ask you to delete some of my comments anyway that’s why i asked where you were abagond…

    Like


  104. Kwamla:

    Right, this post grew out of your comment back in August. I had promised to do it, so here it is, for good or ill.

    Like


  105. peanut says,
    As a bw, we’re put on the bottom of the hierarchy when it comes to beauty and on top of that we’re made to seem masculine. So it’s incredibly annoying to see people making comments (whether black or white) about bw being masculine and having higher testosterone levels…if I was a young black girl reading this why would I want to be made to feel that my natural look was less feminine and beautiful than other women? Why would I want people passing around pseudo-scientific articles explaining WHY bw are less feminine and less beautiful than other women??

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT point, peanut.

    It never ceases to amaze me the lengths ANTI-BW RACISTS will go to use “RACIST PSEUDOSCIENCE” to PROMOTE ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES.
    To state that ALL BW have “higher testosterone levels” than ALL NON-BW and are therefore “MORE MASCULINE” and “LESS ATTRACTIVE” to MOST MEN is the height of ANTI-BW RACIST BS, regardless of the “SO CALLED SCIENTIFIC FACTS” SOME may claim to back it up.

    BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS MUST do all they can to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/WORK to DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM, no matter how it is DISGUISED.

    Like


  106. Chuck, the problem is a case of what you consider to be empirical evidence. You are making statements which are rather simplistic in their derivation.

    Your thinking goes as follows:

    1) Testosterone is an androgen responsible for elements of male development.

    2) Ostensibly, “Black” women have higher levels of of testosterone, on average, than do “White” women.

    3) Therefore, in general, Black women tend to be more masculine than White women, and thus are less attractive to men, in general—since men are most attracted to the most feminine women.

    Is that a fair assessment of your theory, in a nutshell?

    Like


  107. contrary to popular belief in these parts, the thin look is not synonymous with Europeans. Some Europeans are built studier than others. The same can said of Africans who vary in height and built according to ethnic group and even thin, there is variety.

    Co-sign. I don’t get what the hell does thinness has to do with whites and asians. I’ve seen many thin black women. I don’t find big butt attractive either. Buffie looks like a circus freak to me. But I’m being biased because I myself have a flat pancake butt. I don’t fit into either standard of beauty, so I say screw them both. Americans need to stop enslaving themselves by putting themselves into boxes. Blacks looks, whites look like that. I believe that there’s a difference, but I think that people make the differences much more than it really is. How can I believe blond straight hair, super thin with big boobs or dark brown skin, kinky black hair and big butt is perfect when I don’t fit into either?

    Like


  108. here is some evidence…

    Like


  109. laromana,

    caps don’t make your statements true. if a young black girl read this you could make two points to her. first, you could tell her that these are only averages and thus don’t give insight to every single individual. for instance, i’m a redheaded man, and i know that redheaded men generally aren’t perceived as being all that attractive. i accept this generality. a young black girl could be made to understand that there isn’t a certain pattern but that she could be an outlier to that pattern. second, you could tell the young black girl that looks aren’t everything and that their value as a human isn’t a function of their beauty. if black women aren’t as objectively attractive as women of other races that doesn’t diminish their value as humans.

    if i was racist i would say that black women are less valuable as humans than white women, but i don’t believe that to be true.

    further, the topic of black women versus white women was brought up for discussion by abagond. he opened the can of worms. he encouraged debate by doing so. i find it shameful that you would call people who engage in this debate or who believe something different from what you believe to be racist and worth condemning. you can bring up counterpoints to disprove us, but it is pathetic for you to try to shout us down as irrational racists.

    Like


  110. ….yes ALL bw are so masculine…we all are and that’s just what it is

    Like


  111. if i was racist i would say that black women are less valuable as humans than white women, but i don’t believe that to be true.

    You don’t have to be a racist to be a bad scientist.

    Like


  112. Chuck said…
    “a young black girl could be made to understand that there isn’t a certain pattern but that she could be an outlier to that pattern. second, you could tell the young black girl that looks aren’t everything and that their value as a human isn’t a function of their beauty. if black women aren’t as objectively attractive as women of other races that doesn’t diminish their value as humans. ”

    chuck’s idea of encouragement…
    okay, little black girls…” yes bw are uglier than other women and more masculine, but that’s okay you may be the exception…”

    what a foolish thing to say Chuck…

    Like


  113. If you are a young bw reading this…pay no mind to Chuck’s comment…you’re not masculine and you’re just as beautiful as any other woman…no matter what people say 🙂

    Like


  114. I know not everyone has the same taste…but I just don’t see how anyone could say any of the women I posted are truly masculine…I just don’t understand it…

    Like


  115. But regardless of what personal taste are…above all people need to learn to accept people for who they are…this idea that there is only one superficial form of beauty needs to stop. JUst because something is not your personal preference doesn’t mean its not someone else’s and it doesn’t mean there is something wrong with it…so please just stop.

    Like


  116. The TRUTH of the matter is that testosterone does not = masculinity. BOTH men and women produce testosterone in their bodies, just at different levels. Also, having a higher level of testosterone may make you more lean (thinner) and less flabby.

    The big question really is how much testosterone? For instance, if you have two hairs on you body, and someone else has only one, you will have TWICE a much hair as the other person! It sounds like a big difference, but practically speaking, it will make no appreciable difference in your appearance.

    This is the danger of reading other peoples research, and coming to your own simplistic conclusions based on it. Most HBDers have graduated Magna Cum Laude from YouTube University, and have learned what they know from a cabal of non-specialists and discredited, minor “scientists” who couldn’t get a show on public access cable.

    Like


  117. it’s the fact that Chuck (even though he doesn’t understand what he was talking about) was TRYING to imply that bw were inferior to bw by using quack pseudo-science. That is the issue…the issue is that he is stating that bw are inferior…he’s not stating a preference…he’s not speaking from his POV, he is trying to state that bw OVERALL are inherently less feminine and attractive (inferior) to ww in terms of their appearance and that is messed up…

    Like


  118. * inferior to ww

    Like


  119. anyway, i’m done with this….it’s a waste of time…this blog is stressful.

    Like


  120. blah blah. you all are only in the business of preserving peoples’ self esteem. i don’t really care about all that. i’m interested in the real way the world works seperate from how those truths are interpreted by individuals.

    i’m curious King, how much have you read about HBD and why do you think that it is quack science? let’s start with an easy one for you: why are black men more athletic than white men?

    Like


  121. Why don’t we start with something even simpler? What is a “Black man” and what is a “White man?”

    Definition of terms.

    Like


  122. er… this may end up taking us off topic:

    We may need to take it up here, rather than to pollute this thread.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/steve-sailer/

    Like


  123. King:

    a black man is a man who has more in common genetically with men of his similar racial group which has a more recent geographical jumping off point from sub-Saharan Africa. thus a black man is a man who has similar characteristics to other black men. those black men have more genetically in common with men from Africa than do white men.

    i know where you’re going with this, btw. you want to derail the discussion by arguing that race is a social construct.

    Like


  124. Let’s go to the other thread. We’re off topic.

    Like


  125. Chuck said:

    We can say it this way: The most beautiful 10% of white women are more beautiful than the most beautiful 10% of black women.

    It has to do with testosterone levels.

    Menelik says:

    I just spotted this….loooool great assertion but where is the evidence for this, my man?

    Like


  126. @chuck: just observing your comments here, seems to me that you are trying to emphesize the masculinity of the black women vs. femininity of the white women. You talk about how attractive “very young women” are and how repulsive the masculine black women are for the “majority”, but as we all know, you talk about yourself.

    I might be wrong here, but from your posts I get the impression that for you this whole debate is about insecurity of your own sexuality. It looks to me that from your point of view black women are not attractive because they remind you of men and, ergo, if you would confess that you like black masculine women somebody somewhere might think that you might have some hidden homosexuality in you.

    As a very secure heterosexual male I can tell you Chuck that even Serena Williams is a very good looking woman, even though she is well trained athlete and has visible muscles. That, of course, does not make her a man and even if you like her, that does not make you a homosexual.

    Of course, it might be, that you like “very young women” and for you femininity means submission, weakness and total subservient status aside of a man, and white woman for you is somehow the epitome of that and black woman, with her high testosterone leves, is not. At least that you are implying.

    You also seem to say that this very young weakling white submissive soft woman is better and more attractive than normal and healthy black woman, sorry, testosterone buffed up raging black amazon. Am I wrong here?

    Personally I do not think that is the true. It is very funny that you make claims about the science behind your jabbering, since for majority of MY friends do not give a shit about the race or color of a woman. See, it is more complicated issue than just color. This liking I mean. And these are WHITE friends I am talking about. Very much likely more racially pure whites than you, my friend, since there has been so much mixing over there in USA.

    So are white women more beautiful than black? Of course not. There are beautiful black women and white women. It is not about hormone leves, Chuckie.

    Like


  127. Chuck:

    I didn’t say I thought you were an irrational racist: you must have read my mind there.
    I said I thought your argument – and your “evidence” for it – sucked.

    Like


  128. Peanut:
    no it isn’t “just you”. there’s nothing “masculine” about any of those women. which of course surprises neither of us in the least.

    Like


  129. I do agree that white women are emphasised as being more beautiful than they actually are. There are films and TV series where they make it clear that the main white female character is meant to be a woman that tempts all the men and yet when you really look at her you can conclude she has average features. Yes, you can see why some might like her if they have a thing for redheads, bedroom eyes, or a dazzling smile, for example, but it’s not enough to justify her being the woman all the men lust after. Yet they do.

    Speaking as a Eurasian, I do not think double-eyelid surgery is only to do with westernisation. Half the Chinese population are born with double eyelids. One third of the Korean population are born with double eyelids. It’s somewhere around a quarter among the Japanese population. If you go further down to South East Asia, the majority are born with double eyelids. Asians born with double eyelids can have the crease up to 1 cm away from the eye. But Asians with single eyelids aren’t trying to look like the Asians with double eyelids, NO… whites are so amazing, they MUST be trying to look like them! Never mind that they’re still obviously Asian after fiddling with their lids, they are definitely on their way to using plastic surgery to transform into white people. LOL

    Also, did you know that the occurrence of single eyelids is higher among Asian men than among Asian women? It may have come to be seen as more masculine to have a single eyelid, which is why the majority of people getting these operations are women.

    In addition, looking ‘cute’ is ideal in some cultures. For example, in Japan. Most western women would feel offended to be referred to as cute and putting any effort into it would instantly render you an immature fool to your peers. Getting a double eyelid (either temporarily or permanently) makes the eyes pop and look bigger. A lot of the women doing this then also use the ulzzang contact lenses from Korea (those coloured contacts where the iris is bigger than your natural iris). Together, this gives them cute puppy eyes. Even in Japanese films that are meant to arouse men (e.g. gravure), the women are still smiling sweetly, giggling and tilting their heads down while looking up at the camera so that they appear cute and innocent.

    As for the Eurasian ideal of beauty, they typically have the features that are prized in their culture, but on a predominantly Asian-looking face. They have the pale skin (which isn’t impossible for East Asians: many are paler than white people), the slightly higher nose bridge, the double eyelids… but they generally have an Asian face shape, a small mouth (width-wise), small nose and Asian eye structure (shallow eye sockets, extra fat above eye).

    The ideal of being thin in the west is not spreading to Asia. Their own thin ideal has already been there a long time and is far more extreme. If you’re 50kg and above, you’re fat. Doesn’t matter how tall you are, you… are… FAT. I’ve always weighed around 48/49, went up to 50 and my Asian grandma was telling me I was fat and needed to exercise more. Yet, at the same time, I often got nasty comments from white people about being anorexic.

    Just like models in the west are all given the same measurements and weights no matter how different they look, the same is done in Asia. It takes a brave woman to defy them and admit she actually weighs more than 50kg. Even though she clearly still looks slim, people care so much about the numbers. Can’t remember where I read it, but one model insisted her real weight be published and it caused quite a stir.

    Like


  130. all this talk of this testosterone talk makes me think of my own post

    black women so unfeminine
    Asian women too feminine
    white women just right

    black men very masculine
    asian men unmasculine
    white men just right

    As for east africans, I have seen west african who looks east african and vice versa. One girl I know I thought she was Eritrean but nope she is Nigerian (hausa/yoruba) to be exact. So yeah…

    Like


  131. “black women so unfeminine
    Asian women too feminine
    white women just right

    black men very masculine
    asian men unmasculine
    white men just right”

    ya.

    What’s peculiar about this particular set of offensive stereotypes is that it is not even internally consistent. The stereotype of a BW is large breasted and hipped -signifying ‘femininity’. Yet somehow your six lines seems to entirely sum up conventional views on this… I don’t even see how it works

    Like


  132. Chuck said,
    “The truth of the matter is this: men are more turned on by and attracted to post-pubescent women when the gap between the man’s testosterone and woman’s testosterone is greatest. ”

    There are no pre-pubescent women, they are children. So what’s his point.

    Like


  133. Even a post-pubescent woman can remain a child for several years. If this his preference and he thinks this feminine what does this make Chuck.

    Like


  134. I’m with Chuck on this one – say what you will about him, but at least he’s offered some scientific evidence to back up his claims. If you disagree, it seems to me the best way to do so would be by presenting countervailing scientific evidence, and to date none of those who take issue with what he saidd have done so. Not a convincing counter argument, does this make, in my view.

    Moreover, I think all the kneejerk reactions are unnecessary. Why?

    Because, think about this, and Chuck hinted at this in one of his last comments above – would this even be a matter of debate if, say, the issue was about shorter Men versus taller Men, or in Chuck’s case, Men who have red hair versus Men who have black hair? It is a simple matter of observation who Women, accross the board, culture and time eras, tend to prefer as mates if and when they can choose, which is most of the time. Males display, Females choose, yes? If that’s true, then it is also true that most Women, most of the time, would choose a taller Man over a shorter one; and a Man who doesn’t have red hair over one who does.

    These two situations are undoubtedly genetic in origin – although one can be more readily addressed than the other, that isn’t the point. Both have genetic roots, and Women make no bones about their hardwired preferences either – if anyone doubts this, all they need do is go to the more popular online websites like OKCupid, Match.com, or eHarmony, and see for yourself.

    Yet, it is hard to see Abagond, or anyone else for that matter, putting up for real debate and discussion, a post entitled “Are Tall/Other Than Red-Haired Men Handsome, Or Is It Society That Makes Them Seem So?”. Indeed, many of the very same female voices who are all up in arms right now, would turn right around and have no qualms rejecting, out of hand, guys who are well under 5’6″ and/or who look like Howdy Doody. But these are conditions these Men cannot help – they were born that way, just like Serena Williams was born the way she was, or Jennifer Hudson. Yes, both can lose weight, etc. But neither are going to be percieved in the same way that say, Carrie Prejean is. the latter remains the American and more broader ideal of what beautiful and feminine is; the former two examples, not so much.

    Why this is such a huge sticking point for so many Sistas, I don’t get. After all, Black Women have made the self-mutilation practice that is the haircare business a multi-billion per year endeavor. If Black Women enmasse didn’t care about this topic so much, so many of them wouldn’t be doing that, they’d let their hair grow into more natural patterns for their genetic makeup. But they don’t. Which tells me, that there’s a there, there.

    So many short Men and/or red-haired Men face all manner of documented discrimination all the time, on the job and off, and this includes rank discrimination and bigotry from Women too – yet, they soldier on and go about the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women just do the same?

    Comments?

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  135. theobsidianfiles,

    I don’t know where you live, but only a short while ago, a black woman in the US could not work if she wore a natural hair style. Work is not something that has been optional for most of us, even if we have a husband and supportive family.

    There was not a wanting to look white, it was demanded for a very long while. Put a girdle on that big butt, don’t wear too much color(this included black men), put that white powder on your face and don’t tie up that head, straighten or pull you hair back tight. Natural hair now isn’t exactly accepted in corporate jobs now. After a century of this pressure, you think it is easy to not buy into this and especially living in a culture where all women a made to be sensitive about their looks.

    On a more personal level, black men may say they like black women with natural hair, but it doesn’t play our like that. Women do what it takes to appeal to men.

    Like


  136. Obsidian:

    Chuck did not present evidence. He sprayed his comment with links he found in a Google search. Links he did not even quote from. I have seen my own posts presented as “evidence” in just that way for things I never said.

    Like


  137. But Abagond doesn’t write posts about which men are more attractive, does he? It’s only women who are endlessly rated according to their appearance. He’s not unusual. A lot of people see women only in terms of their sexual attractiveness to men.
    So it seems a bit rich to accuse black women of obsessing about this topic

    Like


  138. Chuck said:

    “blah blah. you all are only in the business of preserving peoples’ self esteem… “

    That is an ad hominem and one that can be applied to you too since your positions favour your own race as well.

    Like


  139. my problem with what chuck is saying isn’t whether or not blacks have more testosterone, that may be true. My problem is the jump from that to the idea that black women are less attractive because of it. Besides these are averages we are talking about not hard and fast rules.

    For example I’m white and I run into several black men that are smaller and less “testosterony” (just made that word up) than me every day. And as a matter of fact once you actually spend a considerable amount of time around different groups of people you start to realize that these averages and statistics don’t mean anything because there is so much diversity within every group.

    I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.

    Like


  140. Chuck hasn’t addresses the tidbit in his first link about black women having higher estrogen levels than white women. Instead, he sees that he wants to see, and jumps to T levels.

    Am I the only that caught this.

    Like


  141. Hi Hathor,
    Replies below:

    H: I don’t know where you live, but only a short while ago, a black woman in the US could not work if she wore a natural hair style. Work is not something that has been optional for most of us, even if we have a husband and supportive family.

    O: Then the above kinda contradicts itself. Bl;ack Women have always been a huge part of the Black American working force, going all the way back to the end of the Civil War, long before Madam CJ Walker came along. And of course, the millions of Black Women making use of her and subsequent products did so for reasons other than making them employable – as your parting shot below proves…

    H: There was not a wanting to look white, it was demanded for a very long while. Put a girdle on that big butt, don’t wear too much color(this included black men), put that white powder on your face and don’t tie up that head, straighten or pull you hair back tight. Natural hair now isn’t exactly accepted in corporate jobs now. After a century of this pressure, you think it is easy to not buy into this and especially living in a culture where all women a made to be sensitive about their looks.

    O: For one thing, corporate jobs are a recent phenomenon, most people didn’t work sitting in a cubicle all day. Secondly, Black Women themselves have made the choice to wear their hair a certain way; they alone can make the choice to change that. Some have, others haven’t. And none of what you said addresses the meat of my comment above: short Men and red-haired Men have and continue to face all manner of documented (UPenn, among a great many other studies) discrimination on the job and and off, and this includes that which comes from many of the very same Sistas and Women in general who take such extreme issue with posts and discussions like these. In another time such views would be considered hypocritical, if not at the very least inconsistent. In any event, these Men manage to find a way to get on with their lives, sans the fanfare and flailing about. Why can’t Black Women follow their example, Hathor?

    H: On a more personal level, black men may say they like black women with natural hair, but it doesn’t play our like that. Women do what it takes to appeal to men.

    O: Tru dat; so what’s the problem then? You either do what it takes to meet market demand, or you don’t.

    *shrugs*

    O.

    Like


  142. Also, for many years, Black women didn’t have the same access to the “feminine goodies” that White women did.

    -Makeup was made to compliment very fair skin, and not dark skin.

    -Hairstyles and hair products were created to suite White hair textures.

    -Clothing was created in colors uncomplimentary to darker complexions, and fits were created in patterns uncomplimentary to fuller figures.

    The percentage of disposable income that Black women could spend on Beauty was much lower, because they were kept much poorer, due to unfair prejudices,

    ALL of these things influenced the “You’re Not as Feminine as Me” meme, for many years, until it became an assumed truth among White people.

    Liked by 1 person


  143. Hi Abagond,
    Replies below:

    A: Obsidian:

    Chuck did not present evidence. He sprayed his comment with links he found in a Google search. Links he did not even quote from. I have seen my own posts presented as “evidence” in just that way for things I never said.

    O: Fair enough; but how do you then deal with what I said in my comments above, about the realities shorter and red-haired Men face, not only in terms of the wider society, but also in terms of the dating world? Your response?

    O.

    Like


  144. BTW Chuck, the scientific evidence that disproves HBD is waiting for you on the other thread.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/steve-sailer/#comment-70528

    Like


  145. Hi King,
    Replies below:

    K: Also, for many years, Black women didn’t have the same access to the “feminine goodies” that White women did.

    O: How then do you explain Madam Cj Walker, King? She was America’s first Woman millionaire, of ANY color…

    K: -Makeup was made to compliment very fair skin, and not dark skin.

    O: True; but then, Black Women bought products that actually lighten their skin, so…

    K: -Hairstyles and hair products were created to suite White hair textures.

    O: Again, Madam CJ Walker’s empire, and those who would follow in her footsteps as the 20th century progressed, directly challenges your claim…

    K: -Clothing was created in colors uncomplimentary to darker complexions, and fits were created in patterns uncomplimentary to fuller figures.

    O: How then do you explain things like the Harlem Renaissance, the Savoy dances, etc?

    K: The percentage of disposable income that Black women could spend on Beauty was much lower, because they were kept much poorer, due to unfair prejudices,

    O: Again, see Madam CJ Walker above, plus the fact that today Black Women spend billions of dollars per year on their hair and related products and services. See Chris Rock’s recent film on this, plus the Wall Street journal did a story on this as well.

    K: ALL of these things influenced the “You’re Not as Feminine as Me” meme, for many years, until it became an assumed truth among White people.

    O: Again, you would have to explain that which I’ve noted above, starting with Madam CJ Walker, running through to the present. Essence magazine is now in its fourth decade of continuous publication. Same with Ebony and Jet. *shrugs*

    Good luck with that…

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  146. Obsidian, Madame C,J. Walker was not competition to the bevy of brands out there available to White women.

    Miss Walker was successful because she began to address the imbalance, not because her existence eliminated it.

    The collective feminine beauty industry that was geared to White women was still light years ahead of Miss Walker, in resources, market, and in technology.

    Like


  147. O,
    When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.
    This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.

    I could care less about what you said about red headed men.

    Like


  148. Hi Jason,
    Replies below:

    J: my problem with what chuck is saying isn’t whether or not blacks have more testosterone, that may be true. My problem is the jump from that to the idea that black women are less attractive because of it. Besides these are averages we are talking about not hard and fast rules.

    O: Yes, but in the world in which we live, averages mean something. That’s just the way of the world, and we aren’t doing anyone any good by pretending otherwise. For whatever reason, Black Women are seen as more “sassy” than White or Asian Women. Sure, there are many examples where that’s not true all around, but perception is reality, and that’s the reality in aggregate when it comes to Black Women. Nor is this likely to change anytime soon.

    J: For example I’m white and I run into several black men that are smaller and less “testosterony” (just made that word up) than me every day. And as a matter of fact once you actually spend a considerable amount of time around different groups of people you start to realize that these averages and statistics don’t mean anything because there is so much diversity within every group.

    O: True, but that still doesn’t change the fact that, for example, virtually all of the long distance runners in the Olympics have been of East African origin, or that nearly all of the Olympic winning sprinters have been of West African origin, or that the NBA and NFL has virtually all Black teams, etc. In other words, there is such a thing as Human Bio Diversity, Jason. And there’s nothing wrong with admitting this. The issue with the HBDers, is in how they pervert a legitimate line of scientific inquiry and bend it to their own sociopolitical ends.

    J: I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.

    O: No doubt racism plays a role, especially prior to the end of the Civil War and the decades following it. But it still doesn’t rule out the simple fact that White Men may indeed perceive Asian Women and at least some White Women as being more dainty, feminine and and the like, than say, Serena Williams or Jennifer Hudson or even Beyonce’. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean that Black Women are doomed to a life of penury or ugly duckling status – all three of the Women mentioned above have no problem finding willing mates.

    I also find it fascinating that to date, no one has addressed the points I’ve made wrt shorter and/or red-haired Men, and both of these conditions are a matter of genetics – are they not? Yet, Women and this includes Black Women, have no problem discriminating against such Men. If it’s OK to do it then, why is it NOT OK for it to be done to them? And more importantly, if these Men can find a way to get on with their lives in spite of such rank discrimination against them, sans all the fanfare and the like, what are Black Womens’ excuse?

    Your response, sir?

    O.

    Like


  149. Hi Hathor,
    Replies below:

    H: O,
    When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.

    O: OK, so out comes the ad hominems – which as I always say, are the last refuge of scoundrels. You can’t address my point, so you attempt to dismiss it by appealing to authority – your own. Nice!

    H: This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.

    O: We all face pressures growing up – that was my point when I mentioned shorter Men. They too face all manner of documented pressures in all spheres of life – yet, many of them learn to cope with it and to overcome it. Why can’t Black Women do the same, is my question. And a larger question I have is, why is it OK for Black Women themselves to be so blatantly bigoted against such Men, yet want to turnaround and cry discrimination when it comes to topics such as these? Are you telling me that YOU have personally sought out and dated Men who were say, significantly shorter than 5’6″, Hathor? Or Men who were red-haired?

    H: I could care less about what you said about red headed men.

    O: I suppose that answers my questions above…

    O.

    Like


  150. O,

    Corporate can mean working as a bank teller.

    When I say corporate, I do not mean NGO’s or non-profit organizations.

    Being in management may be relatively new, but there are Black women who do go into and are being trained in management. I know for a fact that they are told to have a certain wardrobe, hair isn’t stated, but there are code words used to indicate that natural hair isn’t desired.

    Like I said when you become a Black woman in the work force, you might have some credibility. Or if you are a Black woman you have been incredibly lucky.

    Like


  151. Hi King,
    Replies below:

    K: Obsidian, Madame C,J. Walker was not competition to the bevy of brands out there available to White women.

    O; Of course not, nor did I say or imply otherwise. She saw a market demand and met it, end of.

    K: Miss Walker was successful because she began to address the imbalance, not because her existence eliminated it.

    O: Walker was successful because she saw a demand that hadn’t been met by her competitors. Again, end of.

    K: The collective feminine beauty industry that was geared to White women was still light years ahead of Miss Walker, in resources, market, and in technology.

    O: Yet, as a direct result of Walker’s pioneering effort, today the Black haircare business is so lucrative that not only Whites have been moving in on it, but increasingly so have Asians. Again, please see the Wall Street Journal’s writeup about all this.

    Waiting to hear back from you on what I’ve said about short and/or red-haired Men…

    O.

    Like


  152. Hi Hathor,
    Replies below:

    H: Corporate can mean working as a bank teller.

    When I say corporate, I do not mean NGO’s or non-profit organizations.

    O; For one thing, Blacks haven’t historically worked in either setting, both were relatively recent developments. Non-sequitur anyone?

    H: Being in management may be relatively new, but there are Black women who do go into and are being trained in management. I know for a fact that they are told to have a certain wardrobe, hair isn’t stated, but there are code words used to indicate that natural hair isn’t desired.

    O: Then why can’t these Sistas follow Madam CJ Walker’s lead and form their own companies?

    H: Like I said when you become a Black woman in the work force, you might have some credibility. Or if you are a Black woman you have been incredibly lucky.

    O: I am a Black Man who just happens to have spent most of his entire life around and among Black Women. Not that this makes any difference or have any bearing on the actual evidence I have brought to bear on the discussion, but I thought it would be interesting to add that tidbit to it. In any event, you attempt at ad hominem is noted, and quite highly flawed.

    Try again. 🙂

    O.

    Like


  153. I believe it comes down to personal preference. Pepsi or Coke which one is better? U.S. society pollutes one;s mind to make white women the perceived the standard of beauty.

    So answering your question Abagond, I think society makes them beautiful, the power majority is the one that sets the standards, rules, and regulations to make it so.

    You can find all the research in the world to suit your personal stance on any issue. Hence the 2+2=5 scenario, which I believe was quite brilliant!

    First time post, long time lurker 🙂

    Like


  154. O,

    If you are a Black man you expect damn much from Black women you want them to do what you will not do.

    You still did not address what I said about the pressure black women went through in the 19th century.

    For your information before corporate jobs, grocery stores or retail stores weren’t all that interested in having black cashiers or associates with natural hair.

    Since you are a Black man why don’t you actually talk to the black women you know, because you certainly don’t believe the Black women you talk on the net. Or do you in general just believe that the Black women here are posers as I believe you are. I remember other comments you have made on this blog.

    Like


  155. O,

    BTW Black women do start up a lot of small businesses and are successful.

    Like


  156. O, I think maybe you are arguing a different point than I am. I am arguing to a lack of aesthetic parity (Between Black women and White women in past years) based on the asymmetrical allocation of resources and services to each group.

    I am not arguing as to whether or not Madam C.J. Walker was meeting a market demand or not. The economics aspects of this may be interesting (to some) but this post is about the perceived aesthetic valuation of White women in this society, not on wether C.J. Walkers was a pioneer or not.

    Got to go to work.

    Like


  157. “So many short Men and/or red-haired Men face all manner of documented discrimination all the time, on the job and off, and this includes rank discrimination and bigotry from Women too – yet, they soldier on and go about the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women just do the same? ”

    eharmony and online dating sites are not valid sources for determining attraction…there are many attractive red-haired white men (although not all, i’m sure there are people on this blog who are red-haired, white men and they’re may be insecure and ugly)but in there are plenty of attractive red-haired men , such as Prince Harry. Don’t you think the red-haired stereotype is just something that is ALSO culturally-conditioned…you don’t exactly see alot of red heads on televsion or being held up as the ideal man. You don’t think this colors our perception?

    In terms of “short men,” short is a relative term to me. I’m only 5’1, so to me 5’6 isn’t short and I would go for someone that height.

    Like


  158. Peanut,
    The point is that Women don’t like to date or marry Men who are shorter than they are. Period – and we have all manner of evidence pointing to this fact. So what you said about “relative” height is irrelevant – the point is, you, at 5’1″, aren’t likely to seekout Men who are 4’10”. And you would be consistent with what Women deem attractive in Men accross racial, cultural and class lines.

    Again: we can cite numerous documented studies that consistently shows how shorter Men are discriminated against in all manner of ways. Yet, they don’t seem to react so strongly to the crosses they bear in this life; they seem to get on with the business of living.

    WHY can’t Black Women follow this simple, quiet example?

    Your thoughts?

    O.

    Like


  159. i’ve rarely seen men who are 4’10 at my age, the shortest man i’ve dated was 5’3″ though…and also I could argue that the short-tall man is also colored by societal influences/media

    Like


  160. Hathor,
    I can see how this is a deeply personally sensitive topic for you, and as such it may not be possible to discuss the matter with any degree of impartiality or objectivity on your part, and for what it’s worth, I respect that. I think it might be time for us to just respectfully agree to disagree.

    Thanks.

    O.

    Like


  161. Peanut,
    Again, the point is made: Women prefer taller Men. Period.

    Do you deny this simple fact of life?

    O.

    Like


  162. anyway back on topic, the point is bw are not inherently uglier or more masculine than ww

    Like


  163. peanut,
    “So, do you think this “idealization of women who are more racially mixed…” applies to men as well.”

    I was going to mention this, but this post is about women, so I didn’t. The answer is a resounding no.

    This difference has been noted and there’s some book I saw on Amazon once about it. Essentially, the thesis is that light skin in many places throughout the world has been perceived as more feminine, whereas dark(er) skin has been seen as more masculine.

    Yeah, the idea of light-skinned pretty boy does exist, but I bet if you polled a sampling of Black American women, using images of good looking guys of various hues, they’d tend to like the darker guys more. My assertion – not fact.

    Like


  164. and in terms of bw and testosterone…are any of you endocrinologist who specialize in discerning who is more tesosterone prone? Cuz I can ask someone who actually KNOWS what they’re talking about and whose JOB it is to deal w/ hormones and they’ll give a staight answer w/out using pseudo-scientific articles to reinforce their bigotry…

    I am getting sick of this argument going on…i can’t even believe people are still discussing this…

    Like


  165. Peanut,
    The issue is whether Men think so, and I would argue that the basic eyeball evidence in this regard is quite clear – yes, Black Women are seen, for whatever reason, not as beautiful as White or Asian Women. Please note that I have placed no value or moral judgment or endorsement on the matter, nor have I stated that I agree with such a view. Just merely pointing out a simple fact of day to day life – just like pointing out the simple fact that Women prefer taller Men to themselves, than Men considerably shorter than themselves.

    O.

    Like


  166. O.

    “Do you deny this simple fact of life?”

    Yes, I do…

    Like


  167. “eharmony and online dating sites are not valid sources for determining attraction…”

    why not? I think they are.

    Like


  168. Peanut,
    Whatever the reason, Black Women, in aggregate, are seen as more “sassy” than are White or Asian Women. To attempt to argue anyone down about this, why it is, etc, et al, is really a waste of time, because it won’t change the minds of those who actually matter the most in this instance, and that’s Men. They can and will choose those Women they perceive, rightly ot wrongly, not to be as “sassy” as Black Women.

    Just like Women, regardless of color or time period or social rank, will tend to choose Men who are taller them themselves rather than Men who are shorter than themselves, regardless as to other more sailient factors and features of such Men. Why this is so hard for you and other Black Women in this and other forums to accept and simply move on, is quite fascinating to me.

    O.

    Like


  169. O
    “yes, Black Women are seen, for whatever reason, not as beautiful as White or Asian Women. Please note that I have placed no value or moral judgment or endorsement on the matter, nor have I stated that I agree with such a view. ”

    uh…don’t try and change your argument now…you didn’t say anything about people’s perceptions, you were implying that perception was fact. We know there is a beauty hierarchy in this society, no one ever said there wasn’t, I don’t think. What I was arguing is WHY bw are perceived as being uglier than ww. Some quacks on here were trying to imply that it’s the inherent masculinity of bw that causes bw to be on the bottom and I DISAGREE with that notion and it doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Like


  170. Peanut,
    You do, huh? Alright then – on what empirical grounds do you deny this? Can you offer any evidence to the contrary?

    O.

    Like


  171. O:

    “Just like Women, regardless of color or time period or social rank, will tend to choose Men who are taller them themselves rather than Men who are shorter than themselves, regardless as to other more sailient factors and features of such Men. Why this is so hard for you and other Black Women in this and other forums to accept and simply move on, is quite fascinating to me.”

    I have the right to defend my POV, just as you have the right to defend yours. I never said bw weren’t perceived as being on the bottom, I actually mentioned that I felt black women’s beauty WAS perceived as being on the bottom. WHAT I WAS DEBATING was the fact that it’s SOCIAL/CULTURAL INFLUENCE that colors this perception, not some inherent biological difference…BLACK WOMEN are a diverse group and its IMPOSSIBLE to label ALL BW as biologically inferior in looks to ww…that’s ridiculous and that was my point…if you paid attention. Again, as I said…beauty is beauty.

    Like


  172. Peanut,
    You said:

    “uh…don’t try and change your argument now…you didn’t say anything about people’s perceptions, you were implying that perception was fact. We know there is a beauty hierarchy in this society, no one ever said there wasn’t, I don’t think. What I was arguing is WHY bw are perceived as being uglier than ww. Some quacks on here were trying to imply that it’s the inherent masculinity of bw that causes bw to be on the bottom and I DISAGREE with that notion and it doesn’t make any sense to me.

    O: I said that Chuck offered some degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to back up his assertions, which were challenged by Abagond himself, among others, and to which I conceded the point.

    Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:

    WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same?

    Your response?

    O.

    Like


  173. I said I disagreed w/ what you said…where is YOUR empirical evidence O…I didn’t see any…???

    Like


  174. O,

    “Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:”

    ummm…i think that bw ARE living their lives, they are out working and getting degrees and contributing the same as everyone else. so what are you talking about??? What you think bw are crying in a corner or something and not living their lives?? Many bw ARE living their lives, but if someone makes an ignorant comment, its the right of anyone who disagrees to CHALLENGE that POV, so what is your point and stop detracting from the point that i’m making by simply stating ” just get on with it…”

    Like


  175. BACK TO THE TOPIC!

    Like


  176. Peanut,
    I don’t recall making the case that ALL Black Women were ugly ducklings. We’re talking about large groups in aggregate, not isolated, atomized individual cases. Again, there are many handsome short Men, but that doesn’t change the fact that Women prefer handsome taller Men. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

    O.

    Like


  177. Peanut,
    OK then, so let’s pursue your line of argument: that it is Society, in this case, one that is shaped and determined by Whites, that is the cause for deeming Black Women in toto, as unattractive.

    OK – so what?

    If all you say is true, that Black Women are indeed moving ahead with their lives in any event, what’s the disagreement?

    My point is this: it doesn’t do Black Women as a group any good at all to be fighting these kind of “wars” online or off. They have much bigger fish to fry than whether so and so thinks they’re pretty or not for whatever reason or cause.

    O.

    Like


  178. I’m done talking/debating w/ you O…i’m not repeating myself again. you can keep going on about it, but i’m no longer going to respond to you on this page.

    Like


  179. Translation: Peanut can’t engage the discussion on the merits raised…

    LOL

    O.

    Like


  180. O,

    Throwing out ad hominem, and other logical fallacies doesn’t make your arguments true.

    My intuition tells me that you think Black women ugly for the most part and you have some prurient interest in proving it.

    Like


  181. Hathor,
    Ironic, your statements, since you engage in Ad Hominem yet again, LOL. And your intuition would be wrong, since I’ve dealt primarily with Black Women romantically, of my own volition, for the better part of my adult life (since 18). Again, it just isn’t possible to have a objective discussion with you, or Peanut, or most, not all but most, of the Black Women in this forum, because the topic cuts a bit too close to the quick for too many of you. Again, I get that.

    So, again, we’ll just have to agree to disagree…hopefully, without being disagreeable…

    O.

    Like


  182. *looks around at comments* *shakes head*

    People who don’t have a background in certain subjects should not attempt to present themselves as experts in that subject. Not to be arrogant or exclusive, but it’s pretty obvious Chuck, et al don’t have a background in biochemistry or biology, period. And it makes me weep to see my beloved subjects butchered. I was trying to avoid commenting on this, since it seems clearly off-topic, but let’s clear up some misconceptions:

    Mean testosterone levels alone tell us nothing about the role of testosterone in a given person’s body. Absolutely nothing.

    It is well known to anyone with a background in biochemistry that

    (a) the “right” level of testosterone depends on the individual and their particular genetic make-up because testosterone does not affect everyone equally

    (b) testosterone levels vary depending on the stage of life, health, and numerous other factors, and most importantly

    (c) other hormones, particularly estradiol and other estrogens, are antagonistic to testosterone, in fact, their levels are crucial to understand before any judgments regarding testosterone can be made.

    Given these biological facts, it is sloppy at best and downright dishonest at worst, to conclude anything about “femininity” or “masculinity” from mean serum levels of testosterone.

    But wait! That’s not the only place where Chuck erred, quite egregiously. The most important blooper is this, as King stated: nowhere in any of those sources does it state that black women have higher testosterone levels than white women.

    The first source says that pregnant black women in their first trimester had higher testosterone levels than pregnant white women in their first trimester. Okay, this is not all black women and women are in their first trimester for less than 1 percent of their entire life. But also, the source says that they had higher estradiol and estrogens levels as well. Remember that estradiol and other estrogens are antagonistic to testosterone? There’s the “gotcha”.

    The second source only mentions men, not women (that one is also inconclusive, but irrelevant to this discussion, for that reason).

    The third source: see above on comments for the first source.

    Chuck forgot to mention all of this because he clearly didn’t read the sources before posting them.

    Like


  183. Natasha W:

    Thank you very much for clearing all that up!!!

    Like


  184. Natasha,
    Good refutation of Chuck’s sources. Let’s see what he comes up with in response.

    As for my point, it remains: people can and will make judgments based on a whole range of reasons, be they legitimately rooted in empirical study, or be they the stuff of stereotype, or some amalgamation of the two; so what? Why does it matter so much at the end of the day? Why can’t Black Women simply ignore that and get on with their lives? After all, this is what shorter Men have done – right?

    O.

    Like


  185. yes natasha thank you

    Like


  186. @ O.

    I think you were making some point about red heads and short men?

    I don’t get it? A red head can just die his hair, cant he? How is that the same thing?

    Like


  187. I think it’s rather obvious that a mostly white (western) societies would try to portray WW more beautiful than BW. But of course it’s totally subjective.

    I don’t let anybody tell me what I should or shouldn’t deem beautiful.

    I think BW are beautiful, especially the ones posted by “peanut”. WA-WA-WOOOM! Currently, I’d go as far as choosing a beautiful BW over a beautiful WW -providing of course, that she possesses all the qualities I look for in a woman IN GENERAL. You know, the usual what EVERYBODY on this planet looks for in a partner: intelligence, sense of humor, kindness. etc, etc…and last but not the least, “chemistry”. I blame feromones for that instead of testosterones, tho. 😉

    Like


  188. Yes, good job, Natasha. I suspect somebody here is a subscriber to National Craniology Magazine…

    Like


  189. O,

    “After all, this is what shorter Men have done – right?”

    Men are taught to be stoic in the face of challenges of this type – that we’re not supposed to be complaining about getting neglected for being short. A complaining man is a soon-to-be clowned man.

    This probably reflects the historical reality that men had more autonomous avenues open to them to improve their lot if life: men could always work, be the titular head of the household (even if the wife really ran things), possibly accumulate wealth and thereby attract a mate that way.

    Historically, women had to rely moreso on their beauty and basic fitness for marriage (fertility, domesticity, etc.) in order to have a decent, safe life. In those times, probably especially after the industrial revolution brought people into the cities and out of the small villages, being perceived a spretty was a huge factor in getting a man.

    Of course, things have changed drastically and far fewer women need men for day-to-day survival. BUT. The old ideas that beauty is super important still are around, and alot of women still seem to base alot of their sense fo self-worth on it.

    I find that women laregly are blowing alot of hot air when they declare theyd on’tw ant a short man. It’s definitely insensitive, and most of the women who openly say that stuff seem to not realize they have all these unpacked prejudices that are problematic. But they seem to toss alot fo that stuff out teh window once they get to know the guy. I suspect alot of shorter dudes have learned this as well.

    Like


  190. Curiously, at least here in Finland less than 100 years ago, woman’s most valuable asset was that she was HARD-WORKING. Good looks were a plus, but not a deciding factor. In an agrarian society, strong hands were more important than high cheekbones.

    Like


  191. Rolo said:

    “As far as what society is trying to tell you is beautiful, can’t we just point out the obvious? This is a consumer society, filled primarily with white people. White people are marketed to, with white things.”

    Like what Nate said, if it were all about market forces or appealing to the masses, then brown-haired, brown-eyed white women would be pushed as the most beautiful – in advertising, in Hollywood and in high fashion. Instead they push an idea of beauty that even most white women can never reach by natural, healthy means.

    The number of black, Middle Eastern and particularly East Asian models used by the fashion industry does not begin to match the customer base. It is not the 1950s any more.

    “The way you phrase things sometimes Abagond, you seem to think white peoples main objective is to demoralize black people rather than the obvious, which is sell things. “

    Nowhere in this post did I say what white people INTEND in regard to black people. Nor is what you say how I think of it. To me it comes down to the simple fact that whites have way more power to pump out images to the whole world of what they regard as beautiful, so much so it affects everyone.

    The side effects of that on blacks and East Asians are not good, but I doubt white image creators even think about that kind of stuff much less intend it. Most of them would probably regard this post as “odd” just like you did.

    Like


  192. Good point on replication value, Hannu.

    Desirability is seen by different people in different cultures for different reasons. This great mistake is when someone thinks that their own scales are suitable to weigh the rest of the world.

    Like


  193. Hannu,

    “In an agrarian society, strong hands were more important than high cheekbones.”

    This is what I was getting at with the idea that the Industrial Revolution probably changed this alot by pulling people into the orbit of the cities, and away from the rural areas.

    Like


  194. @ abagond

    “Like what Nate said, if it were all about market forces or appealing to the masses, then brown-haired, brown-eyed white women would be pushed as the most beautiful – in advertising, in Hollywood and in high fashion. Instead they push an idea of beauty that even most white women can never reach by natural, healthy means.”

    Except that you can sell blondness to the masses in a bottle and thus capitalize on the differences created between the marketing ideal and the statistical reality.

    Marketing is about creating an itch
    Sales is about charging by the scratch

    Like


  195. And Natasha, I meant Chuck of course, not you.

    Like


  196. FTW? Biker slogans, eh? 😀

    What was the babble about short guys? I’m 173 cm, fat and ugly as a freak from a horror show, long haired, goatee and tattoos but I have dated a model who was, not only 20yrs younger, but also 183cm tall. And I have no money, Obsidian, no money at all. I wonder why she was with me?? Hmm…

    Like


  197. Whites have more power? What about the rich people in Arabic countries or South America? All women are beautiful, regardless of colour or race. People´s perception of beauty changes not just from country to country but from person to person.

    Like


  198. Ah…I see a space maybe I can comment now…

    O: I said that Chuck offered some degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to back up his assertions, which were challenged by Abagond himself, among others, and to which I conceded the point.

    Well. I am pleased to see this further clarified and debunked by Natasha’s excellent authoritative critique so we can put Chuck’s, apparent, degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to one side.

    Why “O” you would cite this in the first place mystifies me. Unless of course you were seeking to “bait” women into an argument.? Just as well you’ve conceded this as a point then.

    But thats not the main thrust of your argument anyway this is:

    Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:

    WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same?

    Your response?

    O.

    Lets examine some of this statement.

    “…I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large... as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here?”

    Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.

    You can ignore both statements, as you say, and go on from there. But exactly where does this lead you as a Black person? And I say person because it doesn’t just affect Black women it affects men too. Though obviously, it affects both in different ways. In TRUTH it effects everyone regardless of colour. This too is a given

    Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.

    But then this is nothing new. Franz Fannon wrote about it in “Black Skins White masks”

    Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief.”
    — Frantz Fanon (Black Skin, White Masks)

    Its that core belief that determines your perception. So if you believe, with out fundamentally challenging and substituting alternatives, in either of those two statements above. It will lead you to sub-consciously endorse or even promote them.

    This is why “O” I would say they are relevant. Though I remain open to hear your view about why you believe they should not be so.

    Like


  199. @ Kwamla

    Well said!

    Like


  200. We’re talking about generalities here. All generalities are dangerous -even this one, as some wise man once said.

    Meaning that even if someone like me has some (or several) preferences what a woman should be like, when I actually meet a woman and hit off with her, I’m ready to make fairly big compromises. So, even if I’d prefer a BW, I wouldn’t turn down a WW or AW (least attracted to) just based on their ethnicity.

    If you turn down a good woman just because she’s black, I smell a whiff of racism…

    I fail to understand how short guys have anything to do with any of this. And for the record, I know a lot of short guys who are not “over with it”. Excluding my compatriot sam.

    Like


  201. Kwamla,

    You remind me of a friend of mine, though I can’t quite put my finger on why. 🙂

    Taking blog posts (in particular) to the meta-level always seems like an exercise in futility to me. People write about what they want to write about–unless they’re getting paid by their readers I don’t know why whether it’s “important” or not is even an issue. Some people blog about race, others blog about footies–that’s their prerogative. I don’t really buy blogs as insight into one’s feelings and motivations–Abagond isn’t a White woman, so does it mean something that he has a blog post about White women? (Does he secretly want to be one–kidding! :-P)

    The only thing I notice is that people who comment most frequently (especially those who write novellas every time) seem to be much more invested in comments as real-time conversation than those who don’t. I personally don’t take a response to a comment (or lack thereof) as an indication of priorities, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

    Like


  202. Thanks for that quote Kwamala. I can definitely relate to that feeling of cognitive dissonance. I have come to embrace it as an indication that I need to rethink my beliefs if I really want to find the truth.

    Like


  203. Hannu,

    Good question. I can’t really speak on short men since to this day I only personally know one man who’s shorter than I am–a friend I made this summer who’s 5’2”. A conversation on short men can’t really happen unless you find a big enough group of women who are consistently taller than most men, otherwise it’s a non sequitur.

    Like


  204. excellent response kwamla , excellent. thank you.

    Like


  205. Well, I’m 6’1″, so I’m really not bothered. 😀

    But I sometimes see guys who try to overcompensate their lack of height by pumping iron.

    Like


  206. Tyrone says,
    Blackwomen are innocent victims of racial bulls$$t they have nothing to do with. Whitewomen want to maintain the political and economic clout they have attained due in large part to slavery and colonialism, which explains why sistas have such a hard time in the fashion and modeling industry……If whitewomen are so much better looking, why block access for blackwomen and other women of african and asian ancestry? Money and power are the motivating factors, not beauty!!!

    laromana says,
    Tyrone, thanks for standing up in defense of BW and for CHALLENGING/CONDEMNING ANTI-BW RACISM which is such a fundamental aspect of the American beauty hierarchy.

    jason says,
    I think that the main reason white men may not find BW attractive is that we tend to not view them as fellow human beings or people. We see a black women and it’s like we don’t even bother to see anything else about them. Preconceptions get in the way and almost literally blind us to what’s right in front of our faces.

    laromana says,
    jason, thanks for HONESTLY stating the FACT that ANTI-BW RACISM is the MAIN reason MOST American WM don’t treat BW like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN.
    Maybe if more WM who think this way would OWN up to their ANTI-BW RACISM/ANTI-BW COWARDICE people would STOP BLAMING BW for their MISTREATMENT in American media/society.

    Nate says,
    I do agree that beauty is in all races of women, body types, etc. but this type of response (shrugs at preference for white women, the side eye at preference for black women) seems to point to something else going on.

    laromana says,
    Nate, you hit the nail on the head. There’s ALWAYS an ANTI-BW bias when it comes to how Black beauty is perceived/appreciated relative to NON-BLACK beauty and so many seem to want to deny this FACT instead of CHALLENGING/CONDEMNING it.

    Hathor says,
    O,
    When you are become a Black woman, you can dispute my second paragraph.
    This was the pressure when I was growing up. You don’t think women in the 19th century were not pressured to look or adopt whiteness to be acceptable. Your head is in the sand.
    I could care less about what you said about red headed men

    peanut says,
    Also, I don’t understand why people need to constantly bash bw and uplift ww at the same time…if ww are so great, then get the f*ck off this blog, get your azz out there and get one… and leave the rest of us in peace.

    ummm…i think that bw ARE living their lives, they are out working and getting degrees and contributing the same as everyone else. so what are you talking about??? What you think bw are crying in a corner or something and not living their lives?? Many bw ARE living their lives, but if someone makes an ignorant comment, its the right of anyone who disagrees to CHALLENGE that POV, so what is your point and stop detracting from the point that i’m making by simply stating ” just get on with it…”

    maruja de lujo says,
    But Abagond doesn’t write posts about which men are more attractive, does he? It’s only women who are endlessly rated according to their appearance. He’s not unusual. A lot of people see women only in terms of their sexual attractiveness to men.
    So it seems a bit rich to accuse black women of obsessing about this topic

    laromana says,
    Hathor, peanut, and maruja de lujo, EXCELLENT responses to O.

    I’m not sure why this DERAILER has been harping on an example that is not only NOT RELEVANT to the topic (Are WW beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so?) but INSISTS on presenting a FALSE ANALOGY/DRAWING a FALSE CONCLUSION between the UNIQUE/SINGULAR NEGATIVE EXPERIENCES BW in America face due to ANTI-BW RACISM and the experiences of “short” men/red headed men. One has NOTHING to do with the other

    O says,
    I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are.

    laromana says,
    It’s so ANNOYING to see this TIRESOME MEME (BW are “PERCEIVED AS LESS ATTRACTIVE THAN WW/AW)ENDLESSLY REPEATED without presenting the PROPER HISTORICAL CONTEXT behind this ASSUMPTION.

    WM in America HAVE NOT ALWAYS CONSIDERED AW to be BEAUTIFUL/ACCEPTABLE to DATE/MARRY. There was a time when MOST American WM DISCRIMINATED against AW and used RACIST ANTI-AW STEREOTYPES/ANTI-AW “SCIENTIFIC FACTS” to justify their MISTREATMENT of AW (much like they CONTINUE to do with BW).

    The MAIN reason MOST WM in America NO LONGER TREAT AW in a RACIST manner (but CONTINUE TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST BW) ISN’T BECAUSE BW ARE LESS ATTRACTIVE THAN AW but because they DECIDED, long ago, to DECLARE AW ACCEPTABLE to DATE/MARRY and REMOVE ANY STIGMA ATTACHED to WM/AW IRR’S.

    Like


  207. Hi Jasmin,
    Replies below:

    J: Hannu,

    Good question. I can’t really speak on short men since to this day I only personally know one man who’s shorter than I am–a friend I made this summer who’s 5’2”. A conversation on short men can’t really happen unless you find a big enough group of women who are consistently taller than most men, otherwise it’s a non sequitur.

    O: No, with all due respect, we have quite a bit of everyday evidence that we can all see with our own eyes what the deal is here, its just that so many of you refuse to deal with it because it threatens you as Black Women. The reality is that Women accross the board prefer taller Men than themselves as mates, than shorter Men than themselves as mates. Emphasis on the word “prefer” as well as “themselves”. We can find evidence of this all over the place – and whether we can debate all day long as to whether Black Women have higher levels of T than White or Asian Women do, ie, genetic basis for their disadvantageous position in the American sexual marketplace (SMP), what can’t be denied is that a Man’s height does indeed have a genetic component to it. And value and moral judgments made on this have been documented in this regard. Again, UPenn among a great many others is just one example.

    If the point of this discussion is to determine to what extent “society” and by extension, “racism” plays in exalting one group of Women, in this case White Women, over others, in this case, Black Women, and we agree as per Abagond’s premise that much of it does indeed have a societal cause and focus, what are we then to say about the rank social and in this case dating discrimination about shorter Men? Surely, based on all the anecdotal and empirical evidence we have, this is the case – and yet, shorter Men simply don’t respond to it in the same manner that Black Women seem to. for example, there is no industry that makes billions of dollars per annum selling elevator shoes to shorter Men – certainly none that markets height corrective surgery, or growth hormones that promise every Man will at the least meet the average American Male height of 5’10”. Yet on the other hand, as I have noted earlier, the WSJ has documented the billions of dollars Black Women in our time have spent and continue to spend, in an effort to meet a particular look or beauty standard. There are actual discussions surrounding such issues, like this one right now, and so forth. All I am simply asking is, why can’t Black Women simply follow the quiet and dignified example of shorter Men, who despite the slings and arrows of all manner of discrimination socially and professionally and romantically, somehow figure out how to get on with their lives?

    What gives?

    Comments?

    O.

    Like


  208. I’ve been skimming the responses, so I’m not sure if this has been brought up. With all the emphasis on white women being the standard of beauty, why is there a preponderance of eating disorders and running to the doctors to get plastic surgery, or getting their skin tanned? I’m not looking at statistics or research, but it is well-known and common. It is growing in communities of color as well, but I wonder why it happens more with white women if they are the standard? These are important issues that at times get ignored without looking at the effects of the pressures to live up to a certain standard on self-esteem.

    I’m a black female, who doesn’t look like the average black female (in terms of shape and size). Since my color cancels me out according to society, it would make sense for me to want to change everything to “fit in.” With that said, I don’t care who does or doesn’t accept me. If you are unable to look at me as a human being with feelings, as an individual, and accept for me for who I am, then I don’t want you in my life. If I don’t need surgery to keep me alive, I’m not getting it for no man or society. I think the challenge for most women and probably men is to accept self, and not allow the pressures of others to have that effect on you. It’s not easy, and it doesn’t mean I don’t wish I looked different, but it helps to take a stand on what’s really important.

    Like


  209. Deevine,
    Excellently well put. Thank you!

    O.

    Like


  210. @ laromana

    I thought you might appreciate that.
    But seriously. It’s real. The idea that black women are less attractive IS RACISM (now you got me hitting caps) and nothing else. Really what it is is a narrowing of the standards of beauty so that black women’s features fall outside of the norm. It’s a 100% artificial standard and it’s BULLSHIT! What we see as beautiful is partially hardwired but it is also conditioned.

    Like


  211. Most people prefer those that look like themselves (on average). That’s just human nature. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that.

    So given that US society is predominantly Caucasian, the general standard of beauty is Caucasian. It’s really no deeper than that. Beauty is beauty no matter what one’s race happens to be and more and more people date or marry across racial lines. But most folks do not.

    Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing.

    Black men do not evidently think that Black women as a whole are less attractive because otherwise they wouldn’t be dating, marrying and/or reproducing with them. And vice versa.

    As long as the US is still over 66% White, I wouldn’t expect the beauty standard to reflect anything too different from that.

    Like


  212. jas0nburns
    @ laromana

    I thought you might appreciate that.
    But seriously. It’s real. The idea that black women are less attractive IS RACISM (now you got me hitting caps) and nothing else. Really what it is is a narrowing of the standards of beauty so that black women’s features fall outside of the norm. It’s a 100% artificial standard and it’s BULLSHIT! What we see as beautiful is partially hardwired but it is also conditioned.

    Shady_Grady says,
    So given that US society is predominantly Caucasian, the general standard of beauty is Caucasian. It’s really no deeper than that. Beauty is beauty no matter what one’s race happens to be and more and more people date or marry across racial lines. But most folks do not.

    Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing

    laromana says,
    jas0nburnsm thanks for that comment. You totally get it.

    Shady_Grady , you’ve OBVIOUSLY MISSED the POINT of this post.

    NO ONE has said that Whites/NON-BLACKS are OBLIGATED to be ATTRACTED TO/DATE/ MARRY BW or that there is “SOMETHING WRONG” if they don’t.

    What we ARE SAYING is that White beauty standards should not be PROMOTED AT THE EXPENSE OF BW/BLACK BEAUTY.

    It’s BEYOND OBVIOUS that America has HISTORICALLY PROMOTED ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE in American culture/media and that this has had a NEGATIVE EFFECT on BW’s lives.
    ANTI-BW RACISM has also had a MAJOR NEGATIVE EFFECT on the way MANY BM view/treat BW to the point that ANTI-BW BM PUBLICLY ATTACK the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW and ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO THE SAME.
    ANTI-BW RACISM is a SERIOUS PROBLEM that needs to CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED not MINIMIZED as something that is “SILLY” as you put it.

    Like


  213. i agree with usagi and deevine. women should love what they have and stop thinking in order to be beautiful you must change who you are.

    Like


  214. Jason,
    Would you also say the same thing of Women who have a marked preference for Men taller than themselves? Is that hardwired or BIGOTRY?

    Hmm?

    O.

    Like


  215. @ sam

    @chuck: just observing your comments here, seems to me that you are trying to emphesize the masculinity of the black women vs. femininity of the white women. You talk about how attractive “very young women” are and how repulsive the masculine black women are for the “majority”, but as we all know, you talk about yourself.

    I might be wrong here, but from your posts I get the impression that for you this whole debate is about insecurity of your own sexuality.

    Fascinating analysis! I thinking something similar, something along the lines of “testosterone/masculinity = intimidating”.

    It’s not the “I don’t find them attractive” factor. It’s the “I can’t get one, so I’m going to pull a sour grapes” factor.

    @ Shady_Grady

    Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa)

    Finding “one’s own” more attractive is not the problem. Defending that attractiveness is not the problem. It’s going out of the way to declare of everyone else inherently inferiority that’s the problem.

    Personally, I’m beginning to find it amusing. Because anyone who’s that hellbent on making people believe they’re inferior is a sad, pathetic individual which some deep-seated issues. *shrugs* God’s will has been done for them; they will eventually choke on their haterade and die forgotten.

    Like


  216. Hi everyone, long time lurker here.

    theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men. There simply is no comparison. Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us. Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”. Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being. I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.

    Like


  217. “they will eventually choke on their haterade and die forgotten.”

    cosign

    Like


  218. @ O

    Well most of the leading men in Hollywood seem to be quite short in real life i’ve noticed. So you could argue that they are quite well represented.

    Like


  219. @ little_missy

    I wanted to say as much but couldn’t find the words, well said.

    Like


  220. “It’s not the “I don’t find them attractive” factor. It’s the “I can’t get one, so I’m going to pull a sour grapes” factor.”

    Which goes right back to cognitive dissonance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes

    Like


  221. I just don’t understand how any adult man (black, white or otherwise) could be so interested in making sure black women know they are ugly, know they are not valued, and know that they are on the bottom of the social ladder at best, and not on the social ladder at all at worst. Its ridiculous and rather strange in my opinion.

    I used to tutor young girls when I was in college, and I will never forget the day when this gorgeous brown-eyed, dark skinned 16 year girl told me that she wished that she had never been born because the world treats her like she doesn’t exist. She then began to explain to me why all her features were ugly. All I could do was hug that little girl, her spirit was so broken.

    I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

    Like


  222. “I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”

    I don’t think that anyone at present is consciously invested. I think people are just continuing to reinforce old patterns without really thinking about it. At this point it is totally an institutional practice that just grinds people down like the girl you spoke of.

    Like


  223. physically speaking yes there is beautifull white women, but there is ugly ones too.i don’t consider the hair and skin color to be beauty, i go by facial features.i don’t consider every blue eyes or every pointy noise to be pretty. but as someone says they are overly exaggerated worldwide. some of the black men i see with white women are barely average. look at t.v in america . i’m pretty much sick and tired of seeing the same looks over and over again. the same scenario, the same culture the same personalites being marketed. the same one or two blacks that have to play that safe role. i watch nollywood movie now which is african movies which i see beautifull black people . i also will watch tyler perry.

    Like


  224. Look… all women are beautiful but society has made white women the defaulted “woman” and othered the remainder of the races. So as a blanket answer to the question – “yes and no” – but ask me if they are overexposed? Ya a whole lot.

    Variety is the spice of life, any man who makes the media brainwash him into only seeing one beauty is a fool.

    Observe:
    http://halloftheblackdragon.com/ldcafe/top100.php

    Like


  225. @little_missy–
    “I just don’t understand how any adult man (black, white or otherwise) could be so interested in making sure black women know they are ugly, know they are not valued”

    THIS!

    “I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”

    AND THIS!

    what in the hell is wrong with these men who have convinced themselves that they are in some kind live or die competition with black women & girls?
    they are going after those with the least power & influence. which should tell us all that they are cowardly, insecure & inferior men–you know, the LEAST of men.

    @jas0nburns–

    believe it. they are thoroughly invested.

    Like


  226. laromana wrote:
    “What we ARE SAYING is that White beauty standards should not be PROMOTED AT THE EXPENSE OF BW/BLACK BEAUTY. ”

    In a society which is mostly white, the dominant standard of beauty is going to be …wait for it…. WHITE. I don’t think this is particularly surprising. There are plenty of magazines and other print/electronic media directed at black consumers that have slightly different beauty standards and tend to promote different types of women. These magazines or other forms of media are in the minority because well blacks are in the minority. Again nothing surprising here.

    You wrote
    “Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).”

    1) Again -do you have any citation for this. I would be interested in it if you did.

    2) Whether that was true or not how is that any different from a white person claiming that Halle Berry or Alicia Keys or Paula Patton have a unique beauty compared to other black women because they are part white?

    Every group on average thinks that its own group is the best looking, the prettiest, the most handsome, etc, etc, etc. Whites are not different in that regard. If we are waiting for a white dominated media to start promoting black ideals of beauty..well bring a lunch.

    Ankhesen wrote
    “Finding “one’s own” more attractive is not the problem. Defending that attractiveness is not the problem. It’s going out of the way to declare of everyone else inherently inferiority that’s the problem.”

    Yes, but on some level that’s a distinction without a difference. If someone has a strong preference for women with yellow or red straight hair, slender busty frame, light colored eyes, and aquiline noses there will be by definition few black women that meet that standard. If that someone happens to own a media conglomerate his preference may feel to others like he’s saying they are inherently inferior but it’s not necessarily so. It’s preference.

    SI, Maxim, and the other (white) lad magazines rarely have black women on the cover-when they do the black women usually look like stereotypical white women in one fashion or another. Why? Because that’s what the editors want and more importantly that’s what sells. Nobody is trying to lose money. People should stop focusing so much on preferences or media that’s not aimed at them.

    Like


  227. little missy i don’t think all men invest their time trying to make little black girls insecure. i think men think with their you know what . they are also competitive and white is considered to be the highest standard of beauty in america. so they feel they gain something. the little black girls today need not only to be told that they are beautifull. they also need to love and value themself. if you have espect for yourself any man could respect that beauty is not all about the face. work with what you have and carry it well. thats a trick some of them need to know. sometimes its not darkskin, whiteskin. women always want all the beauty. work with what you have.

    Like


  228. Medium, it would be an incredible step up if black women were JUST called unattractive, but it is not just our looks that is questioned on a daily basis, it is out ENTIRE existence. We are not even valued on the basic human level, we are seen and treated as almost non-human creatures who just happen to have vag**as. Its so crazy

    Like


  229. @ Greg Dragon

    This sexy young songbird survived an assault by her punk ass boyfriend Chris Brown and has taken refuge under the protection of rapper Don Jay-Z… okay I kid, I kid.

    LMAO – you’ve got quite a collection there! Did you do that all yourself?

    @ jas0n

    I don’t think that anyone at present is consciously invested.

    I think it’s consciously acceptable to trash black women in America. Not even Michelle Obama has been immune, and she hasn’t done anything to invoke valid ire.

    People bash us to make themselves feel better. Or they do it because they’re bored and want to start drama. Either way, I think it’s perfectly conscious, especially when you take the childhood of every black woman who went to to school and grew up with white kids. They do it…because they can. Do they know they’re causing damage or being racist? I’ll quote Mira and say, “They don’t care”…especially at the adolescent stage.

    At the adult stage, I realize it’s mostly sour grapes. Face it…BM/WW marriages – not just relationships and offspring – but actual marriages are on the rise. They may not be the majority of marriages, but that doesn’t change the fact they are on the rise.

    WM in America don’t have that kind of success with black women (but hear tell, WM in Britain do, so it ain’t the skin factor). We’re not undesirable, not in the least. In fact, it’s the direct opposite.

    People don’t go overboard to hate on an actual loser. Human beings don’t care about people who don’t have anything they want or can’t do anything for them. Because remember, I’m not talking about black women being ignored. I’m talking about when people exert real energy to get up and come after us. *chuckles*

    ‘Cause I’ve spent most of my adult life having white women tell me they want my hair, love my skin, and so on and so forth. Seriously, I’ve spent my days being told by white women that I’m gorgeous. Then again…I live in Appalachia, and white folks out here, in their own way, tend to be civilized.

    Like


  230. here is an example of white women being given a beauty advantage: http://www.hulu.com/watch/86728/battle-of-the-bods-nerds–cheerleaders?c=Reality-and-Game-Shows#s-p1-so-i0

    notice how the black girls are lambasted on the show when really they’re no worse looking than the white women…this is exactly what i’m talking about

    Like


  231. “believe it. they are thoroughly invested.”

    I mean, I am they. Everything I said above about not seeing black women as women comes from observing my own behavior, prejudice etc. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes little_missy’s girl feel invisible. When you look through someone like they aren’t even there.

    That’s something that I would say I was complicit in but never felt invested in personally because I was never aware of it.

    Like


  232. little missy said,
    “I used to tutor young girls when I was in college, and I will never forget the day when this gorgeous brown-eyed, dark skinned 16 year girl told me that she wished that she had never been born because the world treats her like she doesn’t exist. She then began to explain to me why all her features were ugly. All I could do was hug that little girl, her spirit was so broken.

    I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me.”

    Truly saddening…truly saddening…

    Shady said,
    “Wailing and gnashing one’s teeth that white men tend to find white women more attractive (or vice versa) or calling such preferences “racist” is silly. There are of course racists who actually like to “date” interracially and there are “non-racists” who wouldn’t think of doing such a thing.”

    I don’t think anyone on here is beggin wm for acceptance. what most of us dislike is the disrespect.

    LET’S GET ONE THING STRAIGHT I would expect majority of wm to prefer their own race…there is nothing wrong with that. But just because that is their preference does not mean there is something wrong with bw merely because we are not “their preference.” There is no need to go out of your way to degrade our image and YES the media DOES go out of its way to degrade our image and so does society in general.

    Calling people nappy-headed hoes for no reasons, attacks against Michelle Obama, pictures of bw as apes on the internet. Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…

    Like


  233. I think most wm just are not consciously aware of how prejudiced they are, that is just my experience. I remember this white guy made the comment that “it was stupid to have a Miss Black America because they didn’t have a Miss White America.” What this white guy didn’t realize was that the reason we needed things like Miss Black America is because every damn day is miss white america. When I turn on the tv all I see is white women all day, when I go to the movies that’s all I see…but in his mind he doesn’t see anything odd about that…he just sees it as the norm because he’s only conditioned to see things from his dominant white male perspective. I honestly think that he wasn’t trying to be vicious, but he was just so oblivious and that is the saddest thing to be.

    I also have known wm to casually refer to Michelle O as “handsome” and not think anything of it…so that racism is there.

    They may not consciously be aware of how they contribute to the defeminization and disrespect of bw, but they do.

    Like


  234. jason says…
    “I mean, I am they. Everything I said above about not seeing black women as women comes from observing my own behavior, prejudice etc. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes little_missy’s girl feel invisible. When you look through someone like they aren’t even there.”

    yep, yep.

    Like


  235. I just have to say this to any black girls that may read this blog or see this post: You are beautiful,you are valuable, you are lovable, worthy, you are feminine. Your features are unique and perfectly yours, they don’t need to be fixed or changed. It is not abnormal that you want to be seen and treated as a human person. It is ok to cry, to laugh, to have a bad day, to smile, to giggle. When you look in the mirror, that woman looking back at you is perfect, she is not too dark, her hair isn’t too kinky, her features aren’t incorrect. It may take a while for you to see and acknowledge the beauty that you possess but I promise you that it is there. When you feel down, sad, scared and lonely just know that there are millions of people all over the world that look like you, and they think you are amazing, I certainly do.

    Like


  236. @jas0nburns–

    i was addressing those who, due to their own inferiority demons, viciously attack black women & are determined that black women “admit to their inherent worthlessness.” these types really do have a great deal invested in their particular kind of hate speak.

    Like


  237. Honestly, I think that there is much more putting down of BW today then there was in past decades.

    If you go back far enough, there was really no need to put the Black woman down—all Black people were already down based on the general racial oppression of the age. But, as time has gone on, Black women have become more free, more economically viable, more powerful, and more expressive in American culture.

    To be honest, it wasn’t until Black women began to really stand as equals, and challenge the White Beauty Standard that I began to see this loud and wholesale putting down of Black women en masse.

    When Black singers, and movie stars, and talk show hosts, and newscasters, and models began to truly come into their own, and were recognized as beautiful, not just by Black men, but by all men, that’s exactly when I began to notice this campaign to put down the Black woman.

    Maybe it’s just me.

    Like


  238. Chuck i’m curious King, how much have you read about HBD and why do you think that it is quack science? let’s start with an easy one for you: why are black men more athletic than white men?

    chuck this varies greatly with culture, you do know that right? Some cultures emphasize the importance of sports moreso than others.

    Why are some groups of European men so athletic compared to some groups of African men?

    Like


  239. A lot of you keep saying how people tend to be more attracted to their race. While that is true, I think that it is more affected by our society than our instincts. If any of you have friends or live in a community of different ethnic and racial backgrounds, you will see that many people find others attractive DESPITE racial or ethnic make up. Now, just because they find those people attractive does not mean they will marry and produce offspring with them. There’s the difference.

    Like


  240. little missy I don’t understand how men could be so invested in making sure beautiful, vibrant black girls feel this way, it doesn’t make any sense to me

    It makes those men feel beter about themselves.

    Like


  241. i hope the people noted this remark @ 15:33 this falls in line w/ EXACTLY what were talking about when we say bw are stereotyped as being masculine…there was nothing masculine about the dark-skinned bw nothing not to me atleast…

    Like


  242. “A lot of you keep saying how people tend to be more attracted to their race. While that is true, I think that it is more affected by our society than our instincts. If any of you have friends or live in a community of different ethnic and racial backgrounds, you will see that many people find others attractive DESPITE racial or ethnic make up. Now, just because they find those people attractive does not mean they will marry and produce offspring with them. There’s the difference.”

    I agree its social conditioning…

    Like


  243. I’m sure every woman here has had men of all races take a second glace at them or smile when they were walking down the street. Lets not forget that men will screw an animal, each other(not gay) or even a piece of fruit it they get desperate enough. So the question isn’t whether or not blk women are desirable because we are without a doubt.

    The issue is this… Men look at women as possessions. To a man it’s my house, my car, my stamp collection and my woman. Men also like to pull rank with other men. A woman who his seen as high value by other men will be more appealing to most men than a better looking girl who isn’t as coveted. Take Amber Rose and compare her to the best looking girl/woman you know. Most men would prefer to have Amber Rose because she coveted/desired by many men.

    Now why is Amber Rose so coveted by many men??? If Kayne West hadn’t dated her would she rank so high? ?? If her face wasn’t plastered all over blogs and gossip rags would she rank so high???
    NO!

    this is about 50% of the equation. Add in colonization and the issues that it brings and you have …

    I could break this down further but I trust you all get it.

    Like


  244. peanut, the masuline line is something people are repeating because they hear other people say it. Just like ” I just threw up in my mouth a lil”. People repeat and copy the actions of other without giving it much thought.

    +

    the element cutting up in public, behaving in a way that mainstream culture looks down upon.

    Like


  245. I think it’s consciously acceptable to trash black women in America.

    i was addressing those who, due to their own inferiority demons, viciously attack black women & are determined that black women “admit to their inherent worthlessness.”

    Yep and yep, hence the particular brand of racialized misogyny that afflicts Black women. Do you notice how some of these men have the same “you better listen to me when I’m talking to you” attitude that some Whites have towards POC? There’s an expectation of deference–women have to pay these men attention or face continual harrassment. When you think about it, the similarities are uncanny.

    Like


  246. “the particular brand of racialized misogyny that afflicts Black women. Do you notice how some of these men have the same “you better listen to me when I’m talking to you” attitude that some Whites have towards POC? There’s an expectation of deference–women have to pay these men attention or face continual harrassment. When you think about it, the similarities are uncanny.”(Jasmine)
    ————————————————–

    I think your’re on to something. I attended a conference (2005) in England once, and there were several blk men and women present; one blk fellow whom I ‘befriended’, immediately began referring to me as ‘the colored woman’, which he said with a condescending humourous tone. I asked him why he referred to me as such, and he stated that ‘colored women’ amused him. huh? I wore a heavy winter coat, and he would always chuckle about that ‘colored woman in the winter coat’. It never sat right with me. Also, I’m no fan of Condeeleza Rice, but at a presentation by one of the blk men in attendance, entire presentation was how Ms. Rice was a wh–re, and he had these extremely degrading pictures of her in his powerpoint presentation, in implied sexualesque poses. I was greatly troubled by these expressions of how did you phrase, it, ‘mysognistic racism’ by these blk men. Very disturbing. I used to think that racism was my biggest concern; sexism too? et tu brute’?

    Like


  247. peanut says,
    I don’t think anyone on here is beggin wm for acceptance. what most of us dislike is the disrespect.

    LET’S GET ONE THING STRAIGHT I would expect majority of wm to prefer their own race…there is nothing wrong with that. But just because that is their preference does not mean there is something wrong with bw merely because we are not “their preference.” There is no need to go out of your way to degrade our image and YES the media DOES go out of its way to degrade our image and so does society in general.

    Calling people nappy-headed hoes for no reasons, attacks against Michelle Obama, pictures of bw as apes on the internet. Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…

    laromana says,
    peanut, thanks for this EXCELLENT observation.

    You (and MANY OTHERS on this post) have clearly, convincingly articulated the SERIOUS/REAL problem of INSTITUTIONAL ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM and only someone who wants to INTENTIONALLY DENY the MISTREATMENT that BW face/have faced in America would attempt to JUSTIFY/RATIONALIZE it.

    Maybe as we discuss ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM HONESTLY, we can find a way to begin to DESTROY it so that we can create a more POSITIVE America for BG/BW in the future.

    Like


  248. laromana you coined the term “anti-bw racism,” lol. i use it all the time now.

    Like


  249. Thanks, peanut. I hope the term helps people better understand what BW are facing.

    Like


  250. I gotta give props to Kwamla for bringing up Frantz Fanon (one of my heroes!) because his theories are highly relevant to this discussion.

    Besides cognitive dissonance, we should also remember his theories on language and hegemony, because I think how people often describe Black women, Asian women, and Hispanic women, is very telling when compared to how society describes White women. There’s always a use of coded-language: “big butt”, “fiery”, “agelessness”, “nappy hair”. Those are just the ones that come to mind, but I’m sure the commenters here could think of more.

    Yet when describing White women, society (but notably not individuals, especially among people of color!) tends to generalize it, keeps it non-specific and basic: “long hair”, “big breasts”, “wide eyes”, and so on.

    It’s interesting to me because I (personally) rarely hear these traits ascribed to beautiful Black women, Hispanic women, or Asian women. The language society — at least American society — uses to describe White women seems inherently different than that used to describe women of color.

    But maybe I’m over-analyzing?

    Like


  251. @laromana:

    “Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.”

    But wouldn’t it be fun to see a movie where this jive talkin obese black woman would get the Mr Right, all the money, the house and be the Good One? Thats a movie I would like to see 😀

    Seriously: the media enforces this stereotyping and upholds the value system whioch presents white women as a standard. Not better looking per se, but as a standard to which all the others are and should be compared to.

    Personally I think this is load BS, but I think that this is the key problem. Even if a media, say magazine, does not consoder itself racist, they uphold this idea without even realizing. It is kind of weird though. It is like when eating ice cream we would think every time “But how this compares to pure vanilla?”.

    It think it will change due to the demographics some time and it will fade away, but it takes another 20-30 years or so.

    Like


  252. Peanut wrote

    “Then I can’t tell you how annoying it is that in almost every damn romantic comedy where a ww is the lead they ALWAYS got the obese, jive-talking, head-twirling black woman as the antithesis to the “white woman goddess.” He’s Just Not that Into You is a prime example. Then that stupid lifetime movie “what color is love,” is another example. Only in America can you make a movie about a white woman who CHEATS w/ a married bm, gets pregnant and then cops an attitude at his black wife and SHE STILL is made to be the hero at the end…let’s see a lieftime movie about a bw who cheats w/a married wm and gets pregant and becomes the hero…I’m still waiting for that one… I mean its just ridiculous…”

    Ok I see exactly what you are saying here. However AFAIK the only solution is to ignore media that is not made for you and only consume media that IS made for you. This can be quite problematic I know but what other choice is there? Humans are tribalistic creatures and will generally create depictions that exalt themselves and ignore/put down others.

    The writer Steve Barnes has written extensively on this sort of concern in media and literature.

    http://darkush.blogspot.com/2010/04/steven-kings-stand.html

    http://darkush.blogspot.com/2010/03/congrats-hurt-locker-and-question.html

    Like


  253. Hi Jason,
    You said:

    “@ O

    Well most of the leading men in Hollywood seem to be quite short in real life i’ve noticed. So you could argue that they are quite well represented.”

    O: first, please define “quite short” – are we talking the American male average of 5’10”, or well below it?

    Second, please give me say, ten such “leading Men”?

    Third, I could say the same thing wrt the subject matter at hand – Essence, Ebony and Jet, three major publications that feature Black Women regularly if not specifically, have all been around longer than many of the participants of this discussion has been alive, present company included. I can also point to many other media examples where Black Women are featured.

    So, by your argument, Black Women have no room to complain, just like shorter Men don’t – right?

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  254. Hi Zek,
    Yes, you are over-analyzing, and please notice how I brought up a legitimate point of comparison to how others in our society are routinely discriminated against and note the reaction by the very same Black Women who cry victim.

    Fascinating.

    My point was that, as Shady Grady noted above, those other groups I mentioned somehow get on with living their lives, many manage to overcome their challenges, and all without all the gnashing of teeth and discussions, and blogs, and this, and that – WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same thing? Why?

    You response?

    O.

    Like


  255. Little Missy,
    Thanks for taking the time out, and my bad for getting back to your comments so late. Replies below:

    theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men.

    O: Because I wish to illustrate just how much, if not more so they have in common. It is simply an unassailable fact that shorter Men are discriminated against in just about every major way that counts. This is widely documented and quite frankly, makes that which many here are complaining about wrt Black Women pale in comparison. Yet, those shorter Men find a way to move on with their lives WITHOUT COMPLAINING. My question, which continually gets dodged is:

    WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same thing? What prevents them from doing this? What is it that shorter Men, as a group, have that Black Women, do not?

    LM: There simply is no comparison.

    O: See above.

    LM: Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us.

    O: TYhe history of Gays/Lesbians and the history of African Americans aren’t the same, yet both have faced their fair share of discrimination, have they not?

    LM: Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”.

    O: And shorter Men have been discriminated against, often by the very same Black Women you lionize, no wonder you’re so quick to dismiss a quite valid claim…

    LM: Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being.

    O: Uh, yes there are books and peer-reviewed studies documenting just how shorter Men are demeaned in our society from worklife to lovelife, its just no one here wants to be honest in admitting that because then they couldn’t claim special victim status. It’s time Black Women got on with the serious business of facing a particular set of challenges and problems they and they alone face, and stop wasting time majoring in the minors.

    LM: I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.

    O: Yawn. There is NOTHING holding Black Women back from finding love, from going to school, from building their own businesses, etc, et al. Black Women as a whole enjoy a level of comfort and wealth never seen before in the history of the species. They can do better than this.

    O.

    Like


  256. Hi Kwamla,
    Sorry for getting back to you so late. Replies below:

    K: Ah…I see a space maybe I can comment now…

    O: Glad to see ya; pull up a chair!

    O: I said that Chuck offered some degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to back up his assertions, which were challenged by Abagond himself, among others, and to which I conceded the point.

    K: Well. I am pleased to see this further clarified and debunked by Natasha’s excellent authoritative critique so we can put Chuck’s, apparent, degree of scholarship and scientific evidence to one side.

    O: Until Chuck responds with a stronger counterargument, I agree.

    K: Why “O” you would cite this in the first place mystifies me. Unless of course you were seeking to “bait” women into an argument.? Just as well you’ve conceded this as a point then.

    O: Because I was concerned that no one was dealing with Chuck’s point, straight on, and, that I would make the case that despite the apparent fact that Black Women as a whole aren’t as valued as White Women, SO WHAT? How does that prevent them from living full lives? That’s a question that continues to go unaswered…

    K: But thats not the main thrust of your argument anyway this is:

    “Personally, and I try very hard not to interject my personal views here or anywhere else, I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here? do they spend all their time attempting to change the minds of resistant White folk, White Men in particular? Or do they simply get on with the business of living their lives? This is the question faced by short Men, and by all accounts, they’ve done well, without all the flailing about and fanfare, which begs the question:

    WHY can’t Black Women simply do the same?”

    Your response?

    O.

    K: Lets examine some of this statement.

    O: Please…

    “…I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large… as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here?”

    K: Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.

    O: How so? Please explain? How does it prevent Black Women from getting an education, circa 2010? All the Black Women commenting thus far have achieved this lofty goal. How does it prevent any Black Woman from securing employment? By all accounts, Black Women have done well for themselves on that front as well. Please point out to me the real impediments to Black Women the topic question presents to Black Women enmasse? I’ll wait…

    K: You can ignore both statements, as you say, and go on from there. But exactly where does this lead you as a Black person? And I say person because it doesn’t just affect Black women it affects men too. Though obviously, it affects both in different ways. In TRUTH it effects everyone regardless of colour. This too is a given

    O: How so, precisely? You haven’t explained this or made it clear. I say it doesn’t affect ME, at least not in the way you allude to. There is nothing that’s gonna stop what I consider beautiful or sexy, nor do I ask anyone else to validate it. I choose to like Black Women because that’s who I’m most attracted to, and I couldn’t give a rat’s hindequarters what anyone else thinks of that. I say Black Women have much bigger fish to fry along these lines to be worrying about whether “society”, ie White folks, thinks if they’re pretty or not.

    K: Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.

    O: Just ignoring it has worked very well for me, and I would dare say, millions of other Black Men, because the US Census stats on this matter are quite clear – Black Men invariably choose Black Women as mates way moreso than they choose anyone else. I and they, couldn’t care less what “society” thinks along these lines. If Black Men can ignore it, why can’t Black Women? Hmm?

    K: But then this is nothing new. Franz Fannon wrote about it in “Black Skins White masks”

    “Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize, ignore and even deny anything that doesn’t fit in with the core belief.”
    — Frantz Fanon (Black Skin, White Masks)

    K: Its that core belief that determines your perception. So if you believe, with out fundamentally challenging and substituting alternatives, in either of those two statements above. It will lead you to sub-consciously endorse or even promote them.

    O: The most fundamental “challenge” to any of these beliefs, is saying to the world, I choose a Sista as my mate. Doesn’t get any more “fundamental” than that, and again, Brothas do this all the time without much ado. Again: WHY can’t Sistas simply shut up and get on with the business of living life?

    K: This is why “O” I would say they are relevant. Though I remain open to hear your view about why you believe they should not be so.

    O: Please review the above? I think I’ve made my position on these matters quite clear. Thanks.

    O.

    Like


  257. theobsidianfiles , I simply am not going to waste my time debating with you. Any adult “man” that seriously believes that black women and short, red-haired have an equal struggle is not worth my energy. Just as I wouldn’t spend my time arguing with a white supremacist about why blacks haven’t just gotten over it.

    Ladies of the board, I think maybe you all should also discontinue your “conversations” with theobsidianfiles. His objective is not to listen and understand your experience, but to let you know that its not really that bad and you should just get over it anyway.

    I don’t think that theobsidianfiles can’t see the harassment that black women are put, I just think he doesn’t care. The lack of empathy is quite telling actually, no matter how much WE tell him what we go through,he tells us that WE are wrong, WE need to get over it (like the redheads do lol), WE need to just shut up and sit our ugly, mannish black selves down somewhere cause we’re blocking his view to gorgeous white womanhood lol.

    Like a stated earlier, it takes a very interesting type of “man” to behave the way theobsidianfiles behaves.

    Like


  258. @ Obsidian

    “Third, I could say the same thing wrt the subject matter at hand – Essence, Ebony and Jet, three major publications that feature Black Women regularly if not specifically, have all been around longer than many of the participants of this discussion has been alive, present company included. I can also point to many other media examples where Black Women are featured.”

    Essence, Ebony and Jet? are you serious? That amounts to sufficient positive media representation? your joking right?

    “So, by your argument, Black Women have no room to complain, just like shorter Men don’t – right?”

    No, that’s YOUR argument and it’s irrelevant at best. You want to play oppression Olympics with short men and black women. That is pointless. As little_missy said there is simply no comparison. It’s apples and oranges, give it up.

    My comment about short actors was kind of a joke anyway, It’s not like you can tell that Stallone is only 5’7 unless you see him in person without lifts.

    Like


  259. I agree with Shady_Grady’s comment. The media is run by white many of which

    1. Don’t care about how Blacks are portrayed or
    2. Are racist and intentionally portray these images

    One thing people have to understand is blacks for the most part are not in control of our media image. With the exception of, say, Tyler Perry how
    many mainstreamed black producers can you name who makes sucessful( by mainstream standards) movies catering with a predominately nlack cast?

    Like


  260. That last part should be “with a predominantly black cast”?

    Until more black producer get shine we will continue to see this pattern. The only alternative is to reduce consumption of mainstream media and support people who portray positive images.

    As far as Holly-weird switching up to accommodate blacks and other POC, I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. When people do complain to Hollywood what happens is someone with produce one token film to shut POC up for a while. After that they will revert back to the regular pattern

    Like


  261. K: Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.

    O: How so? Please explain? How does it prevent Black Women from getting an education, circa 2010? All the Black Women commenting thus far have achieved this lofty goal. How does it prevent any Black Woman from securing employment? By all accounts, Black Women have done well for themselves on that front as well. Please point out to me the real impediments to Black Women the topic question presents to Black Women enmasse? I’ll wait…

    O. What you are arguing is essentially that, once basic rights are granted, no further steps should be taken towards achieving the same parity of perception and value in society with other women. That, of course is utterly ridiculous.

    Just because, (if you work hard enough, circa 2010) you can get an education and a job, doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be easier to compete for one if you were equally valued with other women.

    Consider the Natalee Holloway empathy gap. To this day, the allocation of state resources for women who look like Natalee Holloway are much greater than those that are mustered for a Mitrice Richardson.

    Natalee Holloway

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalee_Holloway

    Mitrice Richardson

    http://www.swrnn.com/southwest-riverside/2010-07-29/news/missing-mitrice-richardson-believed-to-be-in-las-vegas

    Unfair as it may be, perception DOES matter, and it is a worthy battle that,not only Black women should be fighting, but also Black men in their behalf.

    Like


  262. Y, can you delete the last comment made on your blog? It’s by me. Thanks.

    “With the exception of, say, Tyler Perry how
    many mainstreamed black producers can you name who makes sucessful( by mainstream standards) movies catering with a predominately nlack cast?”

    With people like him and Lee Daniels, it’s better to just not have blacks in the media at all.

    Like


  263. Y,
    My and Shady Grady’s sentiments exactly. It seems ridiculous to attempt to change the minds of those who seem pretty set in their views about the way the world works. Besides, as I’ve said above, few Black Women go without mates if they want them – the US Census is pretty clear on that point. Black Men couldn’t care less what “society” thinks is hot or not, most of them choose Black Women as mates. Simple as that – and Sistas like Little Missy and others would do well to recognize this fact, and move on to actual matters of import to Black Women.

    Thanks for once again showing far and away more wisdom than your young years would otherwise suggest. 🙂

    O.

    Like


  264. King,
    Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.

    Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?

    I await the evidence on this front…

    O.

    Like


  265. Natasha,
    Perry is immensely successful as a playwright, screenwriter and the like, supported virtually entirely by Black America and more to the point, BLACK WOMEN. It seems to me that what he does resonates very strongly with Black Women overall.

    O.

    Like


  266. @Natsha W

    Sure thing. And yes, the Tyler Perrys and Lee Daniels aren’t help any.

    Like


  267. Jason,
    I kind of got the impression that you weren’t serious when you tried to suggest that Hollywood was just chockfull of leading Men who happened to be short, and you proved that. I was going to ask you to produce a list of Oscar winning Male actors who were well under the American average height of 5’10”, but since we know you weren’t serious there’s no need to pursue this line of reasoning further. Btw, neither Stallone, nor Tom Cruise, has won Oscars. Both Denzel Washington and Forrest Whittaker, on the other hand, have. They both have something in common over the other two. They both are above average height.

    As for what I said about Ebony, Jet and Essence, I am serious as a heart attack. Essence was founded in part by legendary photography and film director Gordon Parks and remains the premiere publication promoting the beauty and lives of Black Women, for four decades straight now. There are many other examples of Black Women in the media that we can point to as exemplars of Black beauty. Again, there are much bigger fish for Black Women, as a whole, to fry, rather than bemoaning the fact that White society thinks that White Women are more comely than they are.

    O.

    Like


  268. Obsidian said:

    “Again, there are much bigger fish for Black Women, as a whole, to fry, rather than bemoaning the fact that White society thinks that White Women are more comely than they are. “

    Relative to this thread that is a derailment. For most subjects there is almost always something more important.

    Like


  269. “I kind of got the impression that you weren’t serious when you tried to suggest that Hollywood was just chockfull of leading Men who happened to be short, and you proved that.”

    no no. it is. believe it. It’s just that they aren’t presented as short so it doesn’t matter. also it’s irrelevant to the discussion.

    Like


  270. hi Jason,
    Then it should be no problem for you to present the evidence – just like I can present evidence that Black Women do quite well for themselves in the desirability department, yes?

    Abagond,
    This isn’t a derailment at all. We all agree that White Women are deemed more valuable and desirable in our society, for whatever reason. And…? I mean, where do we go from there? I’ve proven that Black Women don’t want for mates if they want them, the US Census is quite clear on this point. I also noted major media outlets like Essence, Ebony and Jet. What more needs to be said?

    O.

    Like


  271. It would be no problem but it would be a derail and a waste of my time since I have no interest in looking up sources to support something I already know. You are the interested party, you brought it up. do your own homework.

    Like


  272. No Jason, that’s not how it works. YOU made a claim that I then asked you to prove, and you balked. I on the other hand, can back up my claims. That you can’t handle it because it doesn’t fit your script, isn’t a problem I can or should solve.

    O.

    Like


  273. Either O is deliberating missing the point here, or…well, there is no “or”.

    Anywho, last I checked, this post wasn’t about short men. Where’s Abagond with the deleting? *blink*

    Like


  274. @theobsidianfiles

    You know what else is wildly successful? Jersey Shore. Argumentum ad populum.

    Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it holds any merit.

    As a Black woman, I don’t find Tyler Perry appealing. I don’t like hackneyed Bible thumping and someone insinuating that all of my problems would be solved if I just found myself a blue collar jerk off, Jesus, and a curly weave.

    I like to think I have more dimensions to myself than that, BUT, considering how Perry is one of the few mainstream media playwrights featuring black ensembles, I’m wondering if he’s so popular because he deserves it or because everyone wants some form of solidarity.

    Even if it’s solidarity based on a crappy antiquated message of Black womanhood.

    Obviously the issue of the way Black women are viewed weighs heavily on some of our minds. Your derailing tactic, while imaginative (like creating a shamwow tampon) doesn’t negate the reality of how some of us feel in regards to this issue.

    Like


  275. @ O

    OK you win, your awesome congratulations!

    Like


  276. Ankhesen:

    The short man thing is a comparison. It is on-topic, even if it is a “It happens to white people too” argument, the very kind that Uncle Milton loves. But whereas Uncle Milton might not know better, Obsidian does or should. So he comes off as being deliberately obtuse.

    Like


  277. “King,
    Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.”

    Actually it does, you just don’t understand the connection.
    But I’ll explain it to you. The same kind of social value estimate that makes it easier for the press, and the police to spend more money, media, and manpower, searching for a White blond woman is present in the interview process when a Black woman may not be seen to be as valuable an asset as hiring a White woman. The fact that the Black woman may eventually land a job of some kind, does not mean that it’s not worth the trouble to work for equal footing.

    Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”

    Whites in general, are deemed more valuable in our society than are Black people. How does prevent Black people from achieving in this country, circa 2010?

    Or is this to be a Larry Elder argument?

    Like


  278. Abagond,
    Replies below:

    A: The short man thing is a comparison. It is on-topic, even if it is a “It happens to white people too” argument, the very kind that Uncle Milton loves. But whereas Uncle Milton might not know better, Obsidian does or should. So he comes off as being deliberately obtuse.

    O; No, I’m not – discrimination is discrimination, and everything you said above about how Black Women are viewed in relation to White Women, I can say about how shorter Men are viewed in society, proofed by numerous actual studies that show, for example, that shorter Men get passed over for promotions in favor of taller Men, simply because of being shorter. And we all know how much Women openly discriminate in this regard.

    The problem is that my citing this upsets the apple cart of special victim status that some Black Women here seem to want to nurse, hence the reason why they either try to ignore it outright, or bemoan and belittle as not being important.

    O.

    Like


  279. Hi Torch,
    Replies below:

    T: You know what else is wildly successful? Jersey Shore. Argumentum ad populum.

    Just because something is popular doesn’t mean it holds any merit.

    O: Yes it does; Perry is wildly popular among Black Women, which says that quite a few disagree with you and others.

    T: As a Black woman, I don’t find Tyler Perry appealing. I don’t like hackneyed Bible thumping and someone insinuating that all of my problems would be solved if I just found myself a blue collar jerk off, Jesus, and a curly weave.

    O: That’s not what Perry’s films and plays focuses on and you know it – and keep in mind please, I am not for or against Perry. Actually, I’m neutral on the matter, unlike you, given your comments above. Appealing to authority, anyone?

    T: I like to think I have more dimensions to myself than that, BUT, considering how Perry is one of the few mainstream media playwrights featuring black ensembles, I’m wondering if he’s so popular because he deserves it or because everyone wants some form of solidarity.

    O: Ask Black Women, who make up the bulk of his fanbase…

    T: Even if it’s solidarity based on a crappy antiquated message of Black womanhood.

    O: Perry doesn’t feature Hattie McDaniel-type Women in his films…

    T: Obviously the issue of the way Black women are viewed weighs heavily on some of our minds.

    O: And my question is, in light of what I have presented, WHY?

    T: Your derailing tactic, while imaginative (like creating a shamwow tampon) doesn’t negate the reality of how some of us feel in regards to this issue.

    O: Translation – I don’t have anything with which to meaningfully respond to Obsidian’s points, so I’m gonna either attack them or attack him personally…

    Try again..

    O.

    Like


  280. Hi King,
    Replies below:

    “King,
    Your citation of Holloway doesn’t address my points at all. You haven’t proven that perceptions of Black Women, even if negative, has prevented them from attending college, securing gainful employment, etc et al. Far from it, in fact.”

    K: Actually it does, you just don’t understand the connection.
    But I’ll explain it to you.

    O: OK…

    K: The same kind of social value estimate that makes it easier for the press, and the police to spend more money, media, and manpower, searching for a White blond woman is present in the interview process when a Black woman may not be seen to be as valuable an asset as hiring a White woman. The fact that the Black woman may eventually land a job of some kind, does not mean that it’s not worth the trouble to work for equal footing.

    O: Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.

    “Yes, White Women are deemed more valuable in our society. And…? Again, how does this prevent Black Women from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”

    “Whites in general, are deemed more valuable in our society than are Black people. How does prevent Black people from achieving in this country, circa 2010?”

    K: Or is this to be a Larry Elder argument?

    O: Two questions: what does Elder have to do with the discussion, and secondly, what is wrong with Larry Elder? Personally, I haven’t found a heck of a lot he’s said that is so very objectionable.

    O.

    Like


  281. Jason,
    “@ O

    OK you win, your awesome congratulations!”

    O: You’re welcome. I accept!

    O.

    Like


  282. Folks, here’s an example and I hope it is not “derailing”.
    It is not the same thing but it is similar. I am a music fanatic. I LOVE music. So over the years I would purchase many of the guitar magazines. But it became increasingly obvious that with a few exceptions (BB King/Jimi Hendrix/Buddy Guy/Albert King) most of the magazines I was reading religiously would virtually never have a black guitarist on the cover. In fact features on black guitarists were rare. People that were MONSTER guitarists in various genres (Eddie Hazel/Franco/Prince/Ernie Isley/Curtis Mayfield/Catfish Collins) etc were ignored. Even if white guitarists mentioned them as seminal influences, at best most black guitarists would only get mentioned when they passed away. Maybe. But any white person that managed to stumble his or her way through a 12 bar passage could get massive attention.

    Some magazines were worse than others but all of them (Guitar Player/Guitar Edge/Guitar) pretty much had extremely limited coverage on blacks. After a while this really p****d me off and I wrote emails/letters. Generally I was ignored but one editor replied to point out that they were content with their coverage and if I didn’t like it I was free to read something else.

    And that opened my eyes. Those magazines were marketed to a particular audience, which didn’t include me. So I needed to find other print media which did have the sort of coverage I needed. And I did that.

    So everyone’s tolerance point is different of course but I just don’t see how it makes a lot of sense to consume media not meant for you and then complain about the taste.

    There is media out there which does uphold the beauty of black women. Use that. Stop using other media. Or don’t. But then get used to complaining about things you can’t change…

    Like


  283. So where’s the blog on heightism?

    Like


  284. “O: Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.”

    Wow, Really? This is indeed good news that I was unaware of! My apologies.

    What percentage of Black women have college degrees? Like 65%, 70%, maybe 90%?

    Source please.

    How much more money does the Black female demographic make than the White female demographic?

    Please site the source, as well.

    O: Two questions: what does Elder have to do with the discussion, and secondly, what is wrong with Larry Elder? Personally, I haven’t found a heck of a lot he’s said that is so very objectionable.

    Why did you infer from my question that I was implying that there was anything wrong with larry Elder?

    As to how he ties in, Larry often made the argument (on his radio program) that prejudice didn’t really matter because it could be easily overcome. I considered his argument (in that regard) to be a little naive, but he’s entitled to hold it.

    Like


  285. O. In regard to your claim, you may wish to take issue with this article from the American Prospect

    “Most Black Women have college degrees, often advanced degrees, and in fact often outearn White Women.”

    “Despite a history of strong labor-force attachment and despite gains in educational attainment and occupational status, black women earn less than black men, white women, and white men. In 2005, for the same hours worked, we earned 85 cents for every dollar earned by a white woman, 87 cents for every dollar earned by a black man, and 63 cents for every dollar earned by a white man. In 2006, over 13 percent of black women workers were poor, compared with 5 percent of white women, 7.7 percent of black men, and 4.4 percent of white men. Our unemployment rate is nearly double that of white women and white men.

    These statistics are especially depressing because slightly more than three decades ago, black women earned 96 cents for every dollar earned by a white woman. Between 1975 and 2000, the median earnings of white women grew by 32 percent while the median earnings of black women grew by only 22 percent. This recent experience contrasts sharply with the gains realized in the 1960s and 1970s when the income growth among black women outpaced that of other groups thanks to the improvements in black women’s educational attainment and the elimination of the most blatant discriminatory barriers to employment and occupational mobility.”

    I’ll wait…

    Source here:
    http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=black_women_the_unfinished_agenda

    Like


  286. King,
    I discussed Elder in the way I did because he isn’t regarded too highly among many African Americans. That’s a bit different from whether the veracity of his arguments hold up well to scrutiny.

    There’s a book call Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. It provides all the proof you need to answer the questions you have wrt my statements about Black Women and their educational and employment attainment.

    O.

    Like


  287. @O.

    So you answer the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum with “Nuh-UH! Argumentum Ad Populum!”

    Yes, mate. I can say that you’ve definitely bested me.

    Like


  288. Torch,
    YES. Because what I said was on point.

    a logical fallacy can still be valid, depending on the context. In this one, what I sai was valid – Black Women do indeed think what Mr. Perry has to say in his plays and films is relevant, so much so, that they have made him one of the most successful people in Hollywood, regardless of color or gender. That you find his works objectionable are of interest only to you.

    And if Black Women felt the same way about The Jersey Shore, I would say the same thing.

    Next question?

    O.

    Like


  289. As usual, the media brainwash plays a big role. If you want to sell an image as beautiful which is far from perfect you have to pump it up. Glamourise it. Overrate it. Throw tons of money into it until polished enough that lots of sheep buy it as the only true beauty.

    Take the white female newcomer in showbiz, telly, film etc. The media keep banging on about how drop-dead gorgeous she is, coming from a family with a long blood line of pedigree, perhaps having adorable kids, a handsome husband. Even their dogs are the epitome of pet beauty. Her picture gets plastered everywhere etc etc… and then I take a closer look and think – hmm, unbelievable who they grant journalist’s licenses these days…

    The media know well enough that their overrating is nothing but a bubble anyway, so they happily accept bribes from the industry and pump it up with plenty of hot air. Makes it rise faster too. And the masses look up.

    You rarely ever see that happening with black female newcomers in the media who are usually introduced in a rather austere manner, if at all. The comments about their beauty usually come first from the background noise of male admirers, way before the media picks up on it. And they do pick it up sooner or later. In some countries sooner than in others, and in some countries never 😉

    It seems that, as Abagond mentioned, since Twiggy the concept of natural beauty in the public eye degenerated. Perhaps it was initially a reflection of the vibes of the times. The post-war years were almost forgotten and “eat up your plate cos’ you never know what will come!” was not an issue anymore. Starving yourself down became almost like an antithesis to the previous era of stocking up. It later developed a life of its own. My father used to say that Twiggy was the poster girl for declaring that the war was definitely over.

    I really like Kwamla’s quote of Frantz Fanon about the cognitive dissonance. I think it’s one of the most stubborn and constantly mutating social viruses. I see it along the lines of “what should not be must not be”. I would even extend “core belief” to perception when transferring the idea to the 21st century. For the last 10 years I feel a permanent bombardment of seemingly plausible half truths, junk science and outright lies that are spread to justify certain twisted ideologies.

    Like


  290. @theobsidianfiles

    I’m a black woman, so obviously making such a generalized statement flies in the face of your logic. I could probably introduce you to a plethora of other black women that feel the same way.

    You’ve attempted to make us into a monolithic group to suit your purposes, which is fine. For that, I’ll give you a Nutrigrain bar and a Perrier for your originality.

    As far as questions? None for you. Your stances are rather typical. If I wanted to hear them I’d turn on Steve Harvey or the other men assuming they know US better than we know ourselves even when we’re speaking on the subject of SELF as black women in America.

    Do I speak for all black women (as you are trying to do and you’re not even a black woman) no. Do I speak for myself as a black woman? Absolutely. And just because it doesn’t fit your ideology of who you think we should be or are, doesn’t make it any less valid.

    Like


  291. “There’s a book call Two Nations, by Andrew Hacker. It provides all the proof you need to answer the questions you have wrt my state.”

    Excellent!

    What are some of the pertinent arguments and verifiable facts that he used to make them? Surely you can present the gist of his assertions here. We certainly can’t make our arguments by pointing to books, can we?

    BTW, What are his credentials?

    Where can I access his work online?

    You do realize, of course, that almost everyone else says the exact opposite as what you’re asserting that he has said? Can you please state, in your opinion, why the majority of research in this area is wrong and why Andrew Hacker’s is right.

    Like


  292. The way I feel, unless we can get more black people in high places(that wont sell out, which is rare because money talks in America) we will continue to see the same patterns. The best we as individuals can do is
    1.support those who support us
    2. make a way for ourselves.

    The more I think of it the more futile it sounds to complain about white run media. In a country like America equipped with the racial baggage and beauty standard its obvious black women *in general* will not be viewed as well as white women *in general*.

    In all aspects of American life black is promoted as the antithesis of white. White people are promoted as smart, blacks not so much. White people are promoted as being well behaved, not so for blacks. And on and on… And the same applies to beauty standards and dating preferences.

    Its true this is unsettling and unfair to say the very least. However, its not good to fixate on the problem because, for the most part, the circumstances will not change. At the end of the day we dont control mass media. When this country becomes less white and blacks make MAJOR inroads in Hollywood then we will see results.

    Like


  293. @Y- I’ve started feeling as if an abandonment of Hollywood all together is the way to go. There are plenty of accomplished, beautiful, black women making inroads in other arenas. Claudia Alexander has been my role model for as long as I could remember, and you won’t see her in any film.

    Back to the classics; literature, the sciences, fine art, the humanities.

    Let the rest of the country wallow in its self-imposed ignorance.

    Like


  294. @Shady

    I noticed that comment aswell. You can disagree with Obsidian but it’s unfair to say jump to the conclusion that he thinks black women are hideous jut cause he has a disagreement. I read his blog and have dug up his comments at Roissy’s challenging the commencers for their unnecessary racism towards BW. You guys may disagree with him but those of us how have been following him for a while know he’s not a basher. He may be rough in the delivery of his “truth” but he doesn’t hate black women.

    Like


  295. @ torchandlyre

    Exactly. If I dont like what I see I will turn off the tv, read a good book, or find something more interesting online. I already know how my group is veiwed in America. There is no use in me watching the negativity and getting offended/defensive. I’ll just do something that will enrich my personal life.

    Like


  296. @obsdinian:

    Believe me, in Hollywood you have loads of guys who are not that tall, but since you seemed to be so sure that there are no stars under 5,10, heres few who are:

    1. Sylvester Stallone.
    2. Tom Cruise.
    3. Michael J. Fox
    4. Emilio Estevez
    5. Al Pacino
    6. Rick Moranis
    7. Danny DeVito
    8. Linda Hunt
    9. Seth Green
    10. Ashley Olsen
    11. Penelope Cruz
    12. Ben Stiller
    13. Sandra Bullock
    14. Don Cheadle
    15. Angelina Jolie
    16. Catherine Zeta-Jones
    17. Matt Damon
    etc.

    Yeah, I know you demanded just ten to prove that there are Hollywood stars under 5,10 but hey, few more is more convincing. And just to say: I have no idea what this has to do with whote women/black women discussion, except that you are making comparison between short men and black women, which is very funny indeed :-D.

    Like


  297. LMFAO @ Jasmin & Zek

    I love how your biggest fan responded to a statement that you didn’t even direct at him. LMFAO! He claims not to be a stalker but the shoe certainly seems to fit, especially coupled with the fact that he had to find a new blog for the same type of behavior that he is displaying here. And then you just curtly ignored him. Brava! Brava! Bravicima! That’s poise if I ever saw it.

    Like


  298. All this talk about the short redheaded stepchild lol reminds me of a white commedian in the UK Russell Howard who has this show on BBC that makes fun of the news around the world (a little bit like “The Soup”.) Anyway there was this guy who was talking about how racist was a”hug a ginger day” and was comparing to the plight of black people and Russell just made so much fun of it.

    Black person:my people were enslaved for many years and and made to feel inferior becasue of the colour of their skin and were lynched

    White Ginger person:I’m so freckly. and can’t go out in the sun for very long. Can’t we just agree that we both have suffered?

    LOL God I wish I had a clip of that.

    I dissappear and go back to reading the comments no point of me to engage in tomfoolery

    Like


  299. Hi Sam,
    Well, first off, it was Jason who brought up the whole notion of there being so many Hollywood “leading men” and the like. When I asked him for a list of such guys, he demurred. I can’t say that of you, though what I can say is that your list, such as it is, leaves a lot to be desired.

    Both Matt Damon and Daniel Craig, for example, are two hugely successful stars; both of whom have very successful film franchises under their belts. And both have something else in common – they’re both 5’10’, which is the American national average height for Men. In fact, if you study the history of Hollywood film making, part of what it took to be a “leading man” was HEIGHT. John Wayne, Cary Grant, Robert Mitchum, Rock Hudson, etc et al, none of these guys were the same height as say, Tom Cruise, who’s about 5’7″. Craig, who portrays the current Bond, is the shortest ever at 5’10” – Connery, the original Bond on film, is about 6’3″, which was the Hollywood standard and for the most part, still is.

    No one would ever accuse DeVito or Moranis of being leading men in Hollywood, nor can you or anyone else here give me a list of say, five or more Oscar winning actors who were their height.

    What’s my point in bringing all this up? I had thought I made it clear, but I’ll happily do so again –

    It is documented that “society” puts heavy costs on Men for being born short. Yet, they manage to get on with the business of living their lives. Why can’t Black Women do this, too?

    You response?

    O.

    Like


  300. King says,
    Unfair as it may be, perception DOES matter, and it is a worthy battle that,not only Black women should be fighting, but also Black men in their behalf.

    laromana says,
    Thanks for this EXCELLENT comment and for standing up for BW.

    If you listen to the IRRELEVANT, OFF TOPIC, NONSENSE posted by the DERAILERS you would be convinced that it’s IMPOSSIBLE for ANYONE to find a way to UNDERSTAND that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM in America is a REAL/SERIOUS PROBLEM that has/continues to affect the QUALITY of BW’s lives and that it NEEDS to be CONFRONTED/DESTROYED.

    Like


  301. le_missy says,
    Hi everyone, long time lurker here.

    theobsidianfiles, I honestly do not understand why you continue to compare the plight of black women in this country to that of short or red-haired men. There simply is no comparison. Our history is not similar and then is no connection between us. Black women have always been ridiculed for simply being, society has taught us that not only do we not look “right”, we also don’t act “right”, we don’t live “right”, our feelings aren’t “rigt”. Short men or red haired men may be discriminated against, but their value as a human person is not questioned, their worth is not questioned, there are no blogs or websites or books that have been published to demean and degrade them simply for being. I am sure black women would love to move on, to not be reminded of our melanin everyday, to not have our femininity questioned, our worth or value questioned, but until the rest of society moves on from that, we surely can not.

    laromana says,
    le_missy, your comment PERFECTLY sums up the MAIN POINT of this topic and WHY it’s IMPORTANT to discuss ANTI-BW RACISM.

    Many DERAILERS have claimed that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM ISN’T A UNIQUE PROBLEM that BW face or that BW just need to “move on”/”feel good about themselves”.

    These DERAILERS seem to believe that IGNORING/PRETENDING that ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM DOESN’T EXIST will STOP the MISTREATMENT of BW in Amercan culture/media or ERASE its OBVIOUS NEGATIVE effects on the QUALITY of BW’s lives.

    Of course this is a LIE BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS can’t afford to believe.
    ANTI-BW RACISM/SEXISM MUST BE ACTIVELY CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED EVERY TIME it rears it’s UGLY HEAD until it’s DESTOYED.

    Like


  302. @ Laura: Well, thank-you! I mean, I don’t know you, but thank-you! We try ; )

    It’d be great if we could get back on topic, but I’m not sure it’s possible at this point. We’ve been taken over by red-headed shorties who have it SO HARD it might as well be the same as racism.

    But let me give it a shot!

    The best way I see to change what we see in the media/world about beauty standards is to support productions/people that show diversity and create diversity.

    Some of the more disturbing things I’ve been reading coming out of Southeast & East Asia where White standards of beauty are becoming (hell, have become) incredibly popular to the point that many Asian women effectively rebel against their own bodies to change into a White women. I’m thinking specifically about Bridal Styling in Taiwan, or eye-color operations in Japan, Korea, as well as complete facial reconstruction in Korea.

    This is an example of colonization of people’s bodies by hegemonic standards of beauty. And it doesn’t just happen over there! In America how many Black women kill their hair trying to make it straight? How many women binge and purge to meet some ideal? It’s sad since most of these women are beautiful already.

    I’d say in response to Abagond’s title, and the overall question in this post is that White women can be beautiful, but it’s society that makes all White women beautiful. Whereas Women of color can be beautiful, but society doesn’t notice it.

    Like


  303. Hi Zek,
    One would think, given your enthusiasm to confront discrimination anywhere and everywhere, that you would get my point, but of course you can’t concede that, LOL. What a constant source of fascination and entertainment you are for me.

    I think Tyler Perry addresses your suggestion above, since his productions feature exclusively Black Women in all their permutations. He isn’t the only one, but he is one of the more better known, and enjoys the support of a large swath of the Black Woman community.

    O.

    Like


  304. deevinej23,

    “I’ve been skimming the responses, so I’m not sure if this has been brought up. With all the emphasis on white women being the standard of beauty, why is there a preponderance of eating disorders and running to the doctors to get plastic surgery, or getting their skin tanned? I’m not looking at statistics or research, but it is well-known and common. It is growing in communities of color as well, but I wonder why it happens more with white women if they are the standard? These are important issues that at times get ignored without looking at the effects of the pressures to live up to a certain standard on self-esteem.”

    This is an excellent point: these beauty standards also affect white women. The issues you mentioned are more common amongst white women because they can conceivably meet the ideal with a few alterations; other women can rarely, if ever, meet it. Someone brought up Megan Fox as beautiful… well how many surgeries has she done to achieve her look? She certainly doesn’t look like the average brunette she once was. Everyone is clamoring to be the “hottest”, and the cycle perpetuates itself.

    Like


  305. King,
    Hacker is very well known, a quick Google search will give you his CV. Nor should you be lulled into thinking that just because everyone agrees with something, doesn’t necessarily make said thing right.

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  306. Natasha,
    How many Men take themselves through all manner of changes to make themselves more appealing to Women? Happens all the time, in fact, when you think about it. Simply put, people don’t want to lookat Susan Boyle as a leading lady. That may not be right, but it is life. Why it is we can’t deal with life on its own terms, continues to fascinate me.

    O.

    Like


  307. this blog is toxic

    Like


  308. Why it is we can’t deal with life on its own terms, continues to fascinate me.

    O.

    Obsidian, I was lurking on your site for a couple of months and you talked about a dangerous encounter with the police where you feared you were going to be seriously hurt. You obviously wanted sympathy and understanding. I noticed that you brought up that episode a few times, seeking sympathy/empathy from your readers.

    I find it “fascinating” that you didn’t just deal with that aspect of “life on its own terms” and brush it off, as you’re now saying that black women should do when their beauty and therefore their worth is being devalued when compared to white women’s.

    In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s? We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.

    Like


  309. abagond,
    I’m revising this comment because I couldn’t find where I read that Sophia Loren had a great-great grandparent who was Black/part Black.

    ORIGINAL COMMENT:
    laromana says,
    lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
    I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.). An excellent example of this is Sophia Loren. Much later in her life, Sophia admitted that one of her grandparents was Black. This really helped to explain Sophia’s unique beauty in comparison to most of the WW of her generation (since she’s part Black).

    REVISED COMMENT:
    laromana says,
    lil’vina, your comment is so on point.
    I especially detest when WW are OVERPRAISED for having features that are COMMON to BW while BW are NEVER PRAISED for having the same features (eg. full lips, full butts, etc.).

    An excellent example of this is Kim Kardashian who is often PRAISED for her SURGICALLY ENHANCED REAR END.
    Many BW can attest to the fact that they have/are called “FAT” and CRITICIZED for having a rear end that is “TOO BIG”.

    Like


  310. Wow. This thread is getting longer than a short man!

    Like


  311. “King,
    Hacker is very well known, a quick Google search will give…”

    @ obsidianfiles

    The point of reading a book about ideas is to be able to 1) internalize and 3) communicate those ideas to others.

    If I had to read every book someone pointed me to, in the course of an internet debate, I could do little else than read other people’s favorite books.

    Making an argument means making and argument not starting a book club. It simply won’t do to say, “Oh, all of this was explained in Ulysses,” or “Cicero”, or “the Elder Edda”.

    If you have read something that you are basing your argument on, then, by all means, regurgitate the argument, and point to the supporting data. If that’s not possible then leave off making the argument. Book suggestions are great, but they should not be used in place of an argument.

    Like


  312. @jorbia

    “In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s? We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.”

    I would answer that, but you can probably find the answers better on a site like “What About Our Daughters?”

    Like


  313. King,
    I’m sorry that I don’t have Hacker’s book Two Nations in front of me, but I have been known to quote large passages from it in the recent past. The point is that my argument is based on it and what Hacker gives inside.

    All that said, there’s nothing stopping you from at least looking the Man up for yourself on Google.

    O.

    Like


  314. “All that said, there’s nothing stopping you from at least looking the Man up for yourself on Google.”

    That I will certainly do. I’m just surprised that, having read them man, and having quoted the man, that you can’t or won’t explain the man.

    I wasn’t asking you for a line for line rendering of his work, chapter and verse, but surely you can simply outline his basic points? I don’t mean to be demanding… Am I asking too much?

    And can you really not give the reason why you believe that his minority opinion is more correct than the majority opinion?

    Like


  315. Jorbia,
    Replies below:

    J: Obsidian, I was lurking on your site for a couple of months and you talked about a dangerous encounter with the police where you feared you were going to be seriously hurt. You obviously wanted sympathy and understanding. I noticed that you brought up that episode a few times, seeking sympathy/empathy from your readers.

    O: Yes, I recall the incident well; it was earlier this Spring…

    J: I find it “fascinating” that you didn’t just deal with that aspect of “life on its own terms” and brush it off, as you’re now saying that black women should do when their beauty and therefore their worth is being devalued when compared to white women’s.

    O: Is a Woman’s sole worth in her beauty, or lack thereof? Haven’t we all been told by the Feminists that this isn’t so? Please explain?

    As for your comment above, I did indeed get on with the business of living my life; and I should like to note that no Black Woman ever faced the prospect of being shot full of holes simply because she wasnt deemed as comely as Sophia Loren or any other White Woman.

    No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?

    J: In both cases, blacks are being devalued. Why was your pain any worse than a black woman’s?

    O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.

    J: We all know that when left unchecked, devaluation of people can become very extreme.

    O: when people start dropping dead from such “etremeties”, by all means please let me know…

    O.

    Like


  316. White women are beautiful, but not anymore so than Black women. It’s American society only which ranks them below than the former, otherwise both groups have extremely beautiful women at the same amount, also the same with men.

    Like


  317. Hi King,
    As I recall, you had asked for the data on which Hacker made his arguments. Something I haven’t committed to memory, and again I don’t have the book in front of me and I’m out of town for the moment; my books are back at home.

    But the point that Hacker was making was how Black people are impacted in various ways in terms of employement and the role that race plays in it. hacker was observing how Black Women did well in relation to Black Men and in some cases, even White Women and then gave some data to support the view. Something that again, I can’t cite for you chapter and verse right now. Honestly, given the nature of the venue, I had assumed that people here would be famil.iar with Hacker’s work. Once again I have learned, to always question my assumptions.

    O.

    Like


  318. @ O. very well. But when you have access to the information again, please post it.

    I’ll wait…

    Like


  319. @ obsidian: well, I found a list that stated that matt damon was 5,8. but ok.

    Is society kicking short guys more to the head than black women? Wonder what history says about this?

    Well, the sargofagus of Alexander the Great is about 150 cm long so the guy was less than that and still we remember him as Alexander the GREAT. Stalin was 160 with his hair combed right, Hitler was 160 in his fancy pants and Napoleon was not too much taller. Ok, granated, Chalemagne was over 180 cm tall based on the measurements on his leg bone and Peter the Great was about 2 meters tall. But no, I do not think that short men are somehow more opressed than the black women.

    Like I said before I’m 173 cm and it never bothered me, never stopped me nor it never was an obstacle to get any women. I think it is kind of funny to compare these two. I have no idea where you live or what are your experiences but I’ve been around, around the globe that is, and my height or lack of it has never been an issue anywhere. So from my personal experience I can only say that as a not so tall man I must say that I have never ever faced any of the troubles that black women or men have to face.

    Bernie Ecclestone is very tiny guy but he is the dictator of the whole Formula One circus and well known of her fashion model girlfriends. Maybe 2 billion dollars makes up the lack of height, I would think so. But the point is that this tiny ugly guy was able to create that business almost single handedly. And you can take it to the bank, that guy is short.

    Excluding Oprah I don’t know any other black woman in that class. But there are several chinese, malesian, european, american (both North and South) short guys who are billionaires, millionaires, bosses of some sort etc. So I just don’t see the comparison you are making between these two.

    Maybe it is just me, maybe I am Old Skool, but I think if a guy is a man, it really does not matter how tall or short you are. It is about being a man, not a whining sissy. Not that I mean you by this. I’ve seen short guys knock out huge guys down with one punch in and out of a ring. I’ve seen short guys pick up the best looking women at the discos. I’ve met some short guys who were so respected and revered that tall guys stepped aside when these midgets walked by. So really, I can not see what you say. But like I said, this is just my experience and opinion based on that.

    Like


  320. @obsidian:

    Just noticed that you had an incident with some cops. Well, I’ve had some too. Once in the middle of a night in USA with my black friends at night. So that is a familiar thing for me too. Being white at that moment meant nothing, untill they figured out who I was. But then it was like what the F I was doing in a car with black guys. This happened in the 80’s when I was living in the States. I also had one incident with some native american friends and cops and that was even scarier experience.

    But still I can not compare those to the experiences that black women have in their lives. For me they were just moments. Black women face challenges every day and still manage to get on. That is respectable in my eyes.

    Like


  321. I do agree that white women for many are the universal standard of beauty. I am so glad that my mother exposed me to black beauty at a young age because that has helped me to see the beauty in my own people.
    Personally, I think black women will always be the lowest on the totem pole since society at large refuses to change it’s perceptions about us (black women).
    I sympathize with all women of color who have been made to feel less attractive because they don’t have blue-eyes and blond hair.

    On another note I am curious as to why black women get labeled as ugly and not so much black men? Black men are seen as desirable by all races of women.

    Like


  322. “Black men are seen as desirable by all races of women.

    Huh? Where did you get that?

    Like


  323. Wiggywack,
    It’s because Black Men as a group are seen as the most masculine of Men, whereas Black Women are seen as the most masculine of Women. That’s why.

    O.

    Like


  324. Even though they are not

    Like


  325. Hi sam,
    Replies below:

    S: Is society kicking short guys more to the head than black women? Wonder what history says about this?

    O: I never claimed any such thing, only that shorter guys have indeed faced their fair share of documented discrimination, much of it at the hands of Women in the dating realm, and have managed to get on with their lives without recourse to woe is me sessions and the like. Am I asking why Black Women can’t do this too, something that to date, more than several hundred posts in, no one has actually answered.

    S: Well, the sargofagus of Alexander the Great is about 150 cm long so the guy was less than that and still we remember him as Alexander the GREAT. Stalin was 160 with his hair combed right, Hitler was 160 in his fancy pants and Napoleon was not too much taller. Ok, granated, Chalemagne was over 180 cm tall based on the measurements on his leg bone and Peter the Great was about 2 meters tall. But no, I do not think that short men are somehow more opressed than the black women.

    O: Strawman argument.

    S: Like I said before I’m 173 cm and it never bothered me, never stopped me nor it never was an obstacle to get any women. I think it is kind of funny to compare these two. I have no idea where you live or what are your experiences but I’ve been around, around the globe that is, and my height or lack of it has never been an issue anywhere. So from my personal experience I can only say that as a not so tall man I must say that I have never ever faced any of the troubles that black women or men have to face.

    O: I am in the USA and am speaking on things from that perspective, and here a Man’s height matters. Obama was voted as president of the USA in part because of his height, nor is this unusual at all in terms of American presidential elections.

    S: Bernie Ecclestone is very tiny guy but he is the dictator of the whole Formula One circus and well known of her fashion model girlfriends. Maybe 2 billion dollars makes up the lack of height, I would think so. But the point is that this tiny ugly guy was able to create that business almost single handedly. And you can take it to the bank, that guy is short.

    O: Oprah Winfrey has more money than him and virtually no guy can be heard pining away for her. *shrugs*

    S: Excluding Oprah I don’t know any other black woman in that class. But there are several chinese, malesian, european, american (both North and South) short guys who are billionaires, millionaires, bosses of some sort etc. So I just don’t see the comparison you are making between these two.

    O: Just because you can cite a few obscure to American ears names of shortish Men who made it to the top doesnt negate what I’ve said earlier. The discrimination against shorter guys is real and documented and all manner of academic study has been done in this regard, AND Women, and that includes Black Women, can and do discriminate against them in a romantic context all the time. Even as we speak. I suppose it takes one to know one, hmm?

    S: Maybe it is just me, maybe I am Old Skool, but I think if a guy is a man, it really does not matter how tall or short you are. It is about being a man, not a whining sissy.

    O: so now we resort to shaming language when we cannot legitimately debunk what the studies say, hmm, Sam? That’s it now? So, let me try this out – maybe I’m old school, but I think if a Woman is a Woman, it doesn’t really matter how Black you are. Its about being a Woman, not a whiny b*tch.

    Think about that for a moment, and if its cool with you, its cool with me…

    S: Not that I mean you by this.

    O: Of course not…

    S: I’ve seen short guys knock out huge guys down with one punch in and out of a ring.

    O: So have I. Moreover, I’ve seen quite a few hot Black Women and more than my fair share of ugly White ones. So?

    S: I’ve seen short guys pick up the best looking women at the discos. I’ve met some short guys who were so respected and revered that tall guys stepped aside when these midgets walked by. So really, I can not see what you say. But like I said, this is just my experience and opinion based on that.

    O: Exactly. Data must give way to personal anecdote. And the data is on my side here.

    S: Just noticed that you had an incident with some cops.

    O: Yes; earlier this year, I was nearly shotdown Amadou Diallo style by a bunch of em.

    S: Well, I’ve had some too. Once in the middle of a night in USA with my black friends at night. So that is a familiar thing for me too. Being white at that moment meant nothing, untill they figured out who I was. But then it was like what the F I was doing in a car with black guys. This happened in the 80′s when I was living in the States. I also had one incident with some native american friends and cops and that was even scarier experience.

    O: did they have their guns drawn on you?

    S: But still I can not compare those to the experiences that black women have in their lives. For me they were just moments. Black women face challenges every day and still manage to get on. That is respectable in my eyes.

    O: Again: when the day comes that Black Women are in danger of being shot by the Po-Po merely for being Black Women, then they’ll have my stauch support on the matter. Until then, they need to take a page out of Alexander the Great’s book and learn to overcome whatever shortcomings they perceive themselves to have, and let the woe is me fest go to bed.

    O.

    Like


  326. Wiggywack

    What’s considered desirable in men is almost always the opposit of what’s considered desirable in women(generally speaking)

    I would argue that the black races has been masculinized in mass media. Blacks are perceived as a masculine and aggressive race of people. This workings in favor of black men because more masculine men are considered attractive by women. However women who are perceived as masculine, dominant, and aggressive are not considered the most attractive to men.

    However I don’t think black men are the most desired race of men. White men are the most preferred from what I can see. White men may not be considered as masculine as black men (in general) but white men are perceived as having higher social status and being better providers.

    In know these are stereotypes. But from what I’ve gathered by talking to friends that have strong preferences for black or white men, that about somes it up

    Like


  327. According to the website OkCupid white men are the most desirable. Black men are second last, behind East Asian men but ahead of South Asian men:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/okcupid-and-race-and-dating/

    Like


  328. “I would argue that the black races has been masculinized in mass media. Blacks are perceived as a masculine and aggressive race of people. This workings in favor of black men because more masculine men are considered attractive by women. However women who are perceived as masculine, dominant, and aggressive are not considered the most attractive to men.”

    Totally agree. The whole race was painted as primal, less inhibited, half savage, and aggressive. I think this was mainly done to insinuate that Blacks were closer to animals than to Whites. It was also done because they believed that this would be the last thing that a White woman would be interested in sexually. Based on their understanding of women (particularly a the time) they thought that all women would be repulsed by the idea of these aggressive Black brutes.

    However, as times and attitudes changed toward sexuality, it turned into a bit of a plus in the eyes of some women. It began to play out as more masculine, and more potent, and more exciting.

    In other words, it backfired, big time after the sexual revolution.

    But unfortunately, the same stereotypes that were imposed on ALL Blacks did not fair as well for Black women, because it translates into masculinity a lot easier than into femininity. In women, it gets read either as masculine, or as an oversexed whore.

    Like


  329. @King
    Where I’m from this is how black men are seen (being more desirable than black women). Maybe it’s just a regional thing. Idk.

    @theobsidianfiles and Y
    Thanks for the clarification on the matter. I wanted to understand it better. It was just something that I have noticed in my own experiences.
    And Y, I agree with you that black people as a whole are viewed as overly masculine. Some use this stereotype to “prove” that we are brutes.

    But for me this whole black women being masculine thing is new. I have been more acquainted with the “Jezebel” and “Mammy” stereotypes than the “Sapphire” stereotype that seems to be all the rage.

    Like


  330. It’s interesting regarding how white women are considered beautiful. The most beautiful, goodlooking women I’ve encountered happened to be women of color.

    Like


  331. “However I don’t think black men are the most desired race of men. White men are the most preferred from what I can see. White men may not be considered as masculine as black men (in general) but white men are perceived as having higher social status and being better providers.”

    So, there are certain women of other races who are looking for “experiences” with Black men… flings, affairs, or one nighters, but the White guys are good for marriage.

    Black guys are still stereotyped to be kind of dumb, like overgrown boys, who are incapable of being monogamous, and who will probably never make much money.

    Like


  332. “It’s interesting regarding how white women are considered beautiful. The most beautiful, goodlooking women I’ve encountered happened to be women of color.”

    Cosign, Leigh

    Like


  333. According to the website OkCupid white men are the most desirable. Black men are second last, behind East Asian men but ahead of South Asian men:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/okcupid-and-race-and-dating/

    You are willing to us the OKCupid study as “evidence” where it relates to Black men (who finished 2nd to last) but you are not willing to do the same as it pertains to White women (who also finished 2nd to last). Interesting.

    Like


  334. @leigh204
    I absolutely agree with you. And I didn’t notice how “average” many white women were until I moved into a predominantly white neighborhood. That definitely shattered my previous idea that most white women looked as good as Cindy Crawford.

    Like


  335. The OkCupid study is certainly an interesting treatise on the dating habits of younger people online, but I’m not sure how much I’d trust their data either. Too small of a sample size. Too much of a agenda for them when it comes to dating. I prefer something peer-reviewed and non-partisan.

    That said, depending on where you go and who you ask, the ratings are going to be pretty widely dispersed. But if you went to Nowhere Nebraska, I get the feeling that the dating scene is White-on-White, and all others good luck!

    Like


  336. just a guy wrote:

    “this blog is toxic”

    Abagond:

    have you noticed that your posts which attract BY FAR the most attention are those which offer the opportunity for commenters to criticize the attractiveness, intelligence or political acumen of black women?
    does this give you any pause for thought? i say this with great respect for you as a writer and social commentator.

    Like


  337. Women have to understand that men (of all races) are not rascists when they prefer lighter-skinned women. It’s not even mass media! Before the advent of colonialism in places such as the Middle East, India, China, and much of Asia, lighter-skinned women were heavily preferred before the Europeans came along and set the bar higher. For example, the sultan of the Ottoman Empire would marry a Turkish woman out of ceremonial or traditional concerns, but his harem would be full of European women concubines brought over by the slave trade. A few Arab women were also present and almost no African women have ever been discovered by historians to have been in the harem.
    Men are just born to prefer lighter-skinned women. Here’s where you can find a psychological study that examined why men prefer light-skinned women:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-535828/Why-men-prefer-fair-skinned-maidens-women-like-dark-handsome-strangers.html

    Basically, what researchers found that, “Men are subconsciously attracted to fairer-skinned icons such as Nicole Kidman or Kylie Minogue because of the skin tone’s association with innocence, purity, modesty, virginity, vulnerability and goodness.”

    Oh, and for the small percentage of men that preferred darker women, here’s why:

    “In effect, men drawn to darker looking women – such as actress Monica Bellucci over rival Michelle Pfieffer – are expressing a preference for danger.

    Dr Baumann said this appreciation of a darker complexion in women is “less common” but “appears to coexist with a
    view of such women as more overtly sexual.

    ‘In other words, darker women are seen as more promiscuous.'”

    Like


  338. (Sigh) the “Turkish Harem” argument should be it’s own post, based on how many times I’ve heard it.

    Like


  339. @peanut
    I watched that Battle of the Bods vid on hulu. That was one of the most disgusting shows ever-for various reasons but I won’t get into that.
    The comment by one of the nerds that the dark skin black girl looked like she should be playing on the football team was absolutely gross. There was nothing masculine about her. Even though she was one of the cuter faces she ranked last in the face rankings. Overall ranking she got last again. The only one where she did good was the butt ranking (she had the stereotypical black girl booty).
    The lighter skinned black girl didn’t get it as bad but didn’t do that good either in spite of the fact that she was the most attractive out of all of the women.
    The one who did the best was the average looking, petite blond who wore too much makeup and probably had breast implants.
    This is an excellent example of how an average looking white girl will usually beat out an equally average or more attractive black girl in beauty contests, dating choices, etc.

    Like


  340. You can find some hard data on biological racial differences here: http://psychology.uwo.ca/faculty/rushtonpdfs/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

    Personally, I found pg 22-28 quite interesting.

    Like


  341. Anon,

    I do hope you’re not using that study seriously. Right? Because no matter how many times people try to “prove” race exists in the biological sense, and that different races have essential characteristics in their DNA that leads to behavioral/social/cultural differences, it will STILL be racist. And wrong.

    The Human Genome Project has already shown that humans are 99.99% genetically the same. Race is a constructed identity, and that can be seen historically as much as genetically. Studies linking brain size to intelligence, or even intelligence to with testing, have also been disproved & debunked as racist, and unscientific.

    Rushton himself has been lambasted over & over again by the academic and scientific communities for his racism, and poorly done research. Groups as myriad as the SPLC to the ADL have all shown, and labeled Mr. Rushton what he is: a racist.

    Like


  342. @ Anon

    SIGH… how many times do we have to disprove this HBD nonsense, before it sticks? Is someone going to show up every day with a new paper that reads like the concepts of an 8th grader’s view of the world?

    My sincere apologies to intelligent 8th graders.

    Like


  343. @ zek

    Not to mention the numerous times it’s already been discredited on this very blog

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/steve-sailer/#comment-70528

    Like


  344. Maybe it’s good for the HBD stuff to be widely circulated and discussed because clearly it represents racism’s very best effort. It’s really the best racists can do. So I say get it out there right along with everything that debunks it. Sunlight is the best disinfectant so the saying goes. I mean theres no reason to shout it down because it fails on it’s own.

    It seems like at this point HBD’s biggest strength is the Taboo factor. The “ssssh this is what those politically correct liberals don’t want you to hear” factor.

    Give em more rope I say.

    Like


  345. Jason:

    I agree completely.

    Like


  346. Comments about Obsidian’s relationships with black women is an ad hominem and off topic.

    Like


  347. Cosign jas0nburns. Let it all come out.

    Like


  348. What does HBD stand for? (sorry, kinda new here)

    Like


  349. @ Obsidian
    No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?

    You seem to constantly try to pick at black women about one thing or another. Why? It’s obvious that you have a beef with black women about something.

    O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.

    You said on your site that men determine whether women are attractive. A woman’s value is still largely decided by men based on her attractiveness because men place a higher value on more attractive women. So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.

    O: when people start dropping dead from such “etremeties”, by all means please let me know…

    You’re trivializing this simply because you have a beef with black women about something. Are you the same Obsidian that talks non-stop on your site about the pain for black men to be denied jobs and advancement on their jobs due to being black? I never heard of a black man dropping dead when he got rejected for a job either. Then wouldn’t you agree that black men just need to get over that constant rejection and go on with their lives too? Yet, you sure do sound like you’re in pain when you write about it on your site.

    I know by now you’ll say that’s “different.”

    Like


  350. Anon,

    I had a friend who’s a science major read your so-called “scientific paper,” and he said the guy who wrote it would’ve failed high school biology.

    Like


  351. HBD = human biodiversity, a form of pseudo-scientific racism

    Like


  352. Abagond,

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    Like


  353. wickywack,

    yes the whole show is outrageous and sexist as well. I don’t see how people could not see how targeted the bw were in that show.They immediately started attacking the bw and pegged them as having “tacky” eyebrows when in reality their eyebrows weren’t anymore tacky than the ww on the show. the show is a classic example of how ww have beauty privilege just from being white.

    Like


  354. i also noticed how one of the blond ww(emily) casually remarks that the darkskinned bw (trakeila) has “too much” booty. that was interesting…

    Like


  355. that show was just ridiculous…but I wanted people to see there we’re not b.sing when we say that bw get mistreated no matter how beautiful/classy just for being black. i’ve been made to feel inferior due to my blackness more than once or people have tried to make me feel that way. Also trakeila ( the darkskinned bw) seemed to have the nicest personality, but that didnt’ stop her from being degraded for no reason this is the type of thing bw go through on a reg. basis.

    Like


  356. You can find some hard data on biological racial differences here

    You can find out just how he gathers his biological data thus:

    Articles in the Canadian press based on interviews with Rushton’s first-year psychology students reported that Rushton had surveyed students in 1988 by asking “such questions as how large their penises are, how many sex partners they have had, and how far they can ejaculate.”[31] First-year psychology students at UWO are required “to participate in approved surveys as a condition of their studies. If they choose not to, they must write one research paper. Also, many students feel subtle pressure to participate in order not to offend professors who may later be grading their work. However, if a study is not approved, these requirements do not apply at all.”[31] For not telling them they had the option to not participate without incurring additional work, Rushton was barred by the university where he is tenured from using students as research subjects for two years.[31]

    Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto where 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians were paid to answer questions about their sexual habits. For not receiving permission of the university committee where he is employed, the administration at the University of Western Ontario reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression “a serious breach of scholarly procedure,” said University President, George Pederso

    Maybe I should go around asking strange men these questions, that way I won’t be wasting time. I could say I am conducting ‘scientific research’! Now that’s a plan!

    Like


  357. @peanut
    I agree with everything you’ve said.
    Another thing that irked me was when they were doing the face rankings and one of the girls suggested to the dark skinned girl that she go in last place because her features were “exotic”. WTH?! I thought men liked exotic features. No, what the girl really meant was “black girl go to the back because there is no way in hell that these guys will think you are attractive!” The racism given to her nice and subtle.
    And I agree with you that the dark skinned girl had the nicest personality. She also seemed to be the smartest while the other girls, including the light skinned black girl all seemed to have the IQ’s of 50.

    Like


  358. wiggywack said,
    “Another thing that irked me was when they were doing the face rankings and one of the girls suggested to the dark skinned girl that she go in last place because her features were “exotic”. ”

    yeah that was funny, what was even funnier was that Emily (in my opinion) was the least attractive in the bunch…but yet no one disputes or defend trakeila. i guess bw just automatically are the bottom and the sad thing is trakeila was cute but even in the beginning before anyone even said anything, trakeila said she’d take the fourth spot when really she should have atleast been # 3 as far as i’m concerned. bw always relegated to the bottom no matter how pretty or intelligent we are…

    Like


  359. But you know what peanut the young lady Trakeila seemed too classy to be on that show. I don’t what her reasons for going on there were, but those other those girls weren’t on her level, especially intelligence wise. And besides any man who would pick superficial beauty over natural beauty and low intelligence over high intelligence isn’t worth any real women’s time.

    Like


  360. black women are just as beautifull. i think for white women its not all about their beauty. they have always have the resources ,the education,, and the advantage and alot of men is drawn to that too. black women on the other hand are tied to demeaning stereotype coming all the way from slavery.

    we are not only taunt by white supremacy, but every other race you could think of. because i’ll say it again we are the only distinct race. especially when it comes to our hair. every other race of female has almost similar hair, mostly long and silky looking. which make them feel they have a closer relation to white. most black women have kinky hair. totally the opposite.

    some black people don’t want to accept themselves. it is not all history. also most of the people in the world is of lighter complextion, than black people. so maybe they pick on the odd, which is black people, the darker skin. it give them a feel of supremacy. or it give them a feel that they are closer to white. its not only white people that market these stereotype.there is the other races and black people as well that contributes to these myths. i feel at times we try too hard to fit in and is not accepting of our distinct beauty. when the truth is there is not one standard of beauty. can we accept that there is not one standard of beauty?

    Like


  361. @ calculator

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-535828/Why-men-prefer-fair-skinned-maidens-women-like-dark-handsome-strangers.html

    Oh dear. Here it strikes again. As I mentioned before, the media brainwash. First of all the Daily Mail is a populist tabloid, known for its ultra conservative stance in general. Not to mention their fascist tendencies throughout their history. They are also infamous for sloppy journalistic research, distortions, fabricating “facts” or blowing them out of proportion. You have to read their stories by weeding through their casual but fundamentally manipulative rhetoric.

    Some people choose to blindly believe what fits their ideology best. As soon as they hear or read something which supports their ideas they shut their senses off. Many are already so brainwashed that they are unable to see the main purpose of articles of this nature. That is, selling their rags by touting already existing populist concepts. Not to mention the promotional boost for Kylie Minogue and Nicole Kidman, but on the other hand perpetrating the “sleazy” image of Monica Bellucci. Did I spell manipulation correctly?

    Another example – when certain people read something like “scientists may have found evidence that humans and apes do not share a common ancestor”, they immediately affirm without any further reflection or own research. “See! I always knew it!”

    The unfortunate fate all those articles share in terms of credibility is that they are catered to the lowest common denominator. Don’t think for yourself, we will tell you what you already believe, just in a repackaged and polished form. Hey come on, thinking is boring, isn’t it?

    Dr Baumann said the scale of the differences between male and female skin colour selected for their attractiveness is too big to be explained by pure biology and were the product of “deeply rooted and enduring cultural values”.
    He said: “Physical lightness and darkness are aesthetic characteristics that… exemplify the link between aesthetic and moral judgements.

    I see. “too big to be explained by biology”. “…deeply rooted and enduring cultural values” …exemplify the link between “aesthetic and moral judgements”.
    No further questions, your honour.

    Anthropologist Peter Frost said: “When an individual is faced with potential mates of equal value, it will tend to select the one that stands out from the crowd.”

    Who stands out from the crowd in the majority pale old UK… yes, you guessed it, someone dark. The seemingly plausible half-truths come to mind again.

    Stories like those should be clearly marked with the “For entertainment purposes only” disclaimer.

    Or to quote one of the reader’s comments
    “What a load of twaddle!”

    Like


  362. Hi Jorbia,
    Replies below:

    J: @ Obsidian
    “No one is disagreeing with the basic premise of this post; the point is, “now what?”. And that’s not what I’m hearing too much from those who squawk the loudest here; where do we go from here?”

    J: You seem to constantly try to pick at black women about one thing or another. Why? It’s obvious that you have a beef with black women about something.

    O: Let’s assume for the moment that I did indeed “have a beef with Black Women or something”. So what? What does that have to do with the discussion points at hand? How does that lessen the impact of what I, or Y, or Shady Grady, have said – that Black Women need to MOVE ON with their lives, because there is NOTHING they can do to change the minds of “White society” insofar as how they regard Black Women in terms of aesthetics and so forth. You have addressed this; you’ve only speculated about what my personal motivations are.

    O: Because in my case, my actual life was on the line, that’s why. No one ever died from merely told that they weren’t hot.

    J: You said on your site that men determine whether women are attractive.

    O: Yes, that’s correct.

    J: A woman’s value is still largely decided by men based on her attractiveness because men place a higher value on more attractive women.

    O: Yes, that’s also correct at least to a large extent.

    J: So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.

    O: “Opportunities” like what, precisely? If you’re arguing educational opportuinites, I think the evidence as we have it is quite clear that Black Women are doing very, very well for themselves on that front. If you’re talking about employment opportunities, again, Black Women are none too shabby there either. If anything, Black MEN take a bigger hit on both fronts – and there’s no huge hew and cry about it from any quarter – yes?

    O: when people start dropping dead from such “extremeties”, by all means please let me know…

    J: You’re trivializing this simply because you have a beef with black women about something.

    O: Rubbish; you’re just upset because I refuse to participate in a pity party that in the end is a massive timesuck.

    J: Are you the same Obsidian that talks non-stop on your site about the pain for black men to be denied jobs and advancement on their jobs due to being black?

    O: I see you have a penchant for hyperbole. Out of nearly 300 posts I’ve had less than a dozen on the topic which you refer to above.

    J: I never heard of a black man dropping dead when he got rejected for a job either. Then wouldn’t you agree that black men just need to get over that constant rejection and go on with their lives too? Yet, you sure do sound like you’re in pain when you write about it on your site.

    O: For the most part, Black Men do indeed get on with it; when’s the last time you saw a national conversation taking place along said lines? I’ll wait…

    J: I know by now you’ll say that’s “different.”

    O: Yea, something like that…

    Holla back

    O.

    PS: I also wrote a post call Brothas Gonna Work It Out – Alone – which says in essence to Brothas, “get over it”. Of course, you wouldn’t have seen that, right? 😉

    Like


  363. O: Let’s assume for the moment that I did indeed “have a beef with Black Women or something”. So what? What does that have to do with the discussion points at hand? How does that lessen the impact of what I, or Y, or Shady Grady, have said – that Black Women need to MOVE ON with their lives, because there is NOTHING they can do to change the minds of “White society” insofar as how they regard Black Women in terms of aesthetics and so forth.

    But black women in America HAVE moved on and DO are achieve at record levels despite being devalued. It’s well known that ALLwomen talk or vent to ease their stress or pain, so I would expect for black women to talk in order to vent. Women are not socialized to be stoic. Maybe black women are behaving just like all other women. The question is why do you have a beef with these women talking about their devalution? You apparently do have some sort of problem with black women talking about this because you talk about it here and over at your site quite a lot, telling them to suck it up like short men do :-), for some odd reason.

    On your site, you urged more black men to speak out about their pain, but you want black women to be quiet?

    There is “NOTHING” you can do to change the minds of the HBDers either, yet you regularly assail them. That is also a “massive timesuck.” Why don’t you be quiet towards them? Why don’t you just suck it up like you say short men do and move on the way you exhort black women to do?

    O: For the most part, Black Men do indeed get on with it; when’s the last time you saw a national conversation taking place along said lines? I’ll wait…

    The million man march WAS a national conversation among or about black men, wasn’t it? There’re always the conversations hosted by Tavis Smiley and others who focus on black men primarily. There are lots of articles and such.

    From the articles I read on your site, you talked a lot about the plight of black men. Why deny that?

    Insofar as opportunities that black women don’t get, then just by your assertions that men are the gatekeepers who allow the most attractive, (based on their notions of “hotness”) women to come through the gate, then anyone reading this can easily infer that there are plenty of gates open to “hot” white women that are closed to black women in many areas, and some of those gates are even controlled by black men.

    Like


  364. Joriba,
    I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why. And its understandable, because who really wants to address really important and ugly problems THEY can do something about?

    As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…

    Again, I’ve written upwards of 300 posts on my blog and not more than a dozen were geared specifically toward Black Men, and quite a few garnered very little response from Black Men themselves.

    I, and a suspect more people than they’re willing to openly admit, are simply tired of hearing Black Women complain. They’ve made gains that are unparalleled in the history of human beings. They need to just get on with it already. And I think this is why there are quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  365. This thread seems to have gone quiet again. So maybe its time for me to comment. I do have to wonder where this is going Obsidian !!!

    You see thats part of the ongoing mystification here. I am certainly no more clearer, despite diligently wading through most of your responses to other commentators, (beats watching TV sometimes!!!) including mine; WHAT EXACTLY IS THE POINT YOU ARE MAKING?

    Assuming you have been attempting to to do this and not a 2+2=5 debate as Abagond commented way back here.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/are-white-women-beautiful-or-is-it-society-that-makes-them-seem-so/#comment-70544

    Buts lets say your really trying to say something here which is a bit more than obvious. For instance. Just recently in response to jorbia you posted this:

    O: Let’s assume for the moment that I did indeed “have a beef with Black Women or something”. So what? What does that have to do with the discussion points at hand? How does that lessen the impact of what I, or Y, or Shady Grady, have said – that Black Women need to MOVE ON with their lives, because there is NOTHING they can do to change the minds of “White society” insofar as how they regard Black Women in terms of aesthetics and so forth. You have NOT addressed this; you’ve only speculated about what my personal motivations are.

    I added the “NOT” because I am assuming this is a word you meant to include. – I don’t think I fully comprehend that part otherwise.

    Anyway, as you say, MOVING ON… And I think jorbia does a good job of responding to this in her follow up post…

    What you effectively have been saying; and you used the ridiculous example of short men to illustrate this; is summed up, for me, in this statement:

    Black women should stop perpetuating the cycle of playing the victim; acknowledge their position in white society; but then disregard these limitations and MOVE ON.

    Now if you’re saying anything more than this then you will have to make it clearer because I haven’t read anything of merit more than what I’ve echoed in that statement so far.

    You did express this to me in your last post about your idea of MOVING ON (reposted just to refresh your mind…):

    “…I really don’t think it’s relevant as to WHY Black Women are perceived as less attractive to the Whiter society at large… as White Women or Asian Women; to me, the bottomline is, that they are. So, the question for me is, where do Black Women go from here?”

    This to me seems consistent with what you expressed to Jorbia and my own assessments of what your saying so far. Which is why I specifically put this question to you in my original/First post:

    Kwamla

    Really…???? Its not relevant?. Well you are entitled to your view but I would have to disagree. In the same way the title of this thread: “Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes it seem so” is also relevant to your question.

    You can ignore both statements, as you say, and go on from there. But exactly where does this lead you…????

    Just to make myself clearer here. I am saying OK. LETS MOVE ON. BUT WHERE ARE WE MOVING ON TO????

    Yes. Lets agree Black women should accept their lot in a paranoid racist white society. Stop bitching an playing the victim but where should they be moving on to????

    For me this is the one specific question YOU Obsidian are not honestly addressing. If you have a view on this. And I am assuming you do why not be upfront and just say where you believe Black women should be moving on to.

    By now, unless I’ve misrepresented your view, I think most people have gotten your point. So please explain in detail or one line (which ever is more agreeable) where you think Black women should be focused on going from here?

    Perhaps then we could engage a more exploratative and open discussion instead of this perceived talking over everyone who disagrees with your empassioned viewpoint.

    Like


  366. I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why.

    Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? 🙂 You think you know what’s best for black women? I believe that MOST people talk or vent about what they consider to be most important TO THEM.

    As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…

    No matter what I cite, you would just dismiss it or minimize it if it’s not what you think or believe. We both know that. Isn’t that what some of you are talking about on that other thread here now, about how people invest in a belief and will not change, despite all good evidence to the contrary.

    Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
    .
    quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…

    Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.
    I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.

    If you’re talking about your site’s shut down, didn’t YOU say here somewhere that was because you infringed on that woman’s rights? Why blame her, if you’re blaming her. I certainly wouldn’t care whether voices like yours are out there or not because I can choose to listen or not. I’m “choosing” to listen to you and I’m choosing to respond. I “chose” to read your posts on your site. No one forced me. NO ONE is forcing you to listen to black women.

    YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)

    Like


  367. “The Human Genome Project has already shown that humans are 99.99% genetically the same. ”

    Lewontin’s fallacy, really Zek? I thought you were too smart. That’s SNP pairs, not alleles. We’re also over 94% genetically the same as mice, by that metric.

    “I think I do want a big juicy lollipop.”

    “I think I do not want a big juicy lollipop.”

    Those sentences are almost genetically the same!

    There, dispelled that silly statistic with an elementary analogy for you.

    Like


  368. @obsidian: yep, they had they guns drawn untill they noticed that I was a white guy. The other incidient, with some AIM guys, they did not have pistols, they had assault rifles and they were Feds, and there my long black hair and ponytail did not improve the situation. It was only after they established that I was indeed a white foreigner I got different treatment, but till then…

    Just try to figure out your point: are you saying that black women should shut up and put up because short black men have to do so? Or what? I can’t figure out what you want to say.

    Try to answer with a little shorter text, please. Those ramblings are too long for me, sorry. Thanks.

    Like


  369. “Groups as myriad as the SPLC to the ADL have all shown, and labeled Mr. Rushton what he is: a racist.”

    As “myriad” as “the SPLC and ADL”?

    LOL! Why not throw the One peoples project in there too, for good measure! All far left blank slate liberal creationists.

    astrophysicist Steve Hsu is working with the BGI to find the genetic basis of intelliegence, and he has no problem with the validity of Jensen, Rushton, et al’s work:

    http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2010/10/some-data-on-regression.html#disqus_thread

    Perhaps you could head over there and let the genius know that he has it all backwards!

    Like


  370. jorbia says,
    -So we’re talking about a woman’s “worth” here. The basic issue here is that a lot of black women are devalued and rejected simply because they don’t look “hot” like “hot” white women. That deprives those black women of various types of opportunities that “hot” white women get in this society. You need to stop trivializing that.
    -Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? You think you know what’s best for black women?
    -Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
    -Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.
    I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.
    -Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.
    -YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)

    laromana says,
    jorbia, thanks for trying to REASON with IGNORANT/INSOLENT ANTI-BW RACIST BM.

    It NEVER ceases to AMAZE me how ANTI-BW BM who GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO PUBLICLY DEGRADE BW/COULD CARE LESS about the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW feel they have the RIGHT to DICTATE HOW BW should live THEIR LIVES.

    As I’ve said MANY times, unless ANY man is a PRO-BW SUPPORTER, he has NO RIGHT STICKING his nose in BW’S BUSINESS or TRYING to tell us how to live OUR LIVES.

    Until an ANTI-BW BM learns to RESPECT BW and fulfill HIS RESPONSIBILITY of STANDING UP in DEFENSE of his SAME RACE WOMEN WHO BIRTHED HIM, he needs to SHUT HIS MOUTH, MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS, and STAY OUT of BW’S LIVES.

    BW have the RIGHT to be treated with the SAME CONSIDERATION/RESPECT as NON-BW and we should NOT have to SETTLE for DISRESPECTFUL, DEMEANING, DEGRADING, RACIST ANTI-BW treatment.

    Like


  371. Sam,
    YES, I am saying to Black Women that, in the year 2010, there is not a heck of a lot for them to be complaining about. And that should be viewed as a GOOD THING. Moreover, there are other groups of people who face being the low man on the totem pole too by “society” and it would do well for Black Women to take a page out of these other groups’ books and apply it to themselves. shorter guys are discriminated against in all manner of ways, yet they find a way to get on with their lives, find mates, have a life and call it a day. Black Women have the same ability to do this. That some of them either can’t, and in many more instances than we’re willing to admit, won’t, do this, is really the issue that we need to be discussing, not how “society” views them.

    Clear now?

    😉

    O.

    Like


  372. Hi Jorbia,
    Replies below:

    “I do because they are other, much more important and pressing, fish to fry for Black Women that they either can’t or won’t address, that’s why.”

    J: Oh, so you are taking on the role of adviser to black women? You think you know what’s best for black women? I believe that MOST people talk or vent about what they consider to be most important TO THEM.

    O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.

    O: As for Smilely, please name for the the many forums he’s conducted that focused on Black Men, I’d sure like to hear about them and I’ve watched virtually every one of his annual forums for a decade now. I’ll wait…

    J: No matter what I cite, you would just dismiss it or minimize it if it’s not what you think or believe.

    O: Not necessarily. I just want to see if you can back up what you assert with actual facts.

    J: We both know that. Isn’t that what some of you are talking about on that other thread here now, about how people invest in a belief and will not change, despite all good evidence to the contrary.

    O: Sure, but that isn’t me. If you can provide clear and present proof where I’m wrong on something I will consider it.

    J: Insofar as black women having other more pressing concerns in your opinion, I think you’re alluding to what I read on your site that single professional black women should just settle down with blue collar black men? Some professional black women have decided that’s not what’s best for them. That’s an unattractive choice to them, just like lots of men will not accept a woman who they consider to be very unattrractive, no matter how wonderful she may be.

    O: Yes, that’s some of it, though there’s more, much, much more. Let’s examine the more than 70% out of wedlock birthrate, shall we? Now, the conventional conversation tends to focus exclusively on the “deadbeat dads”, but human sexuality says that, barring rape, the female chooses. So, shouldn’t we begin the examination there? Why can’t Black Women examine their poor mating choices that leads to such a sorry state of affairs to begin with? Wait, I got it – “society” has something to do with that, too – right?

    And, you didn’t quite get the above right. I did indeed mention some of what you said above, but I also was careful to say that Black Women have every right to decide for themselves what their lives will be and who they choose to share said lives with – but they then can’t complain if things don’t turn out the way they had hoped.

    So, if a Sista finds that she simply can’t “settle” for a Blue Collar Brotha, that’s fine – but if she also finds herself not being able to attract and/or hold on to the more Professional Brothas more to her liking, she has no one but herself to blame. Such is life and adults tend to understand that. Keep it moving. We really don’t wanna hear about your having to Dumb It Down and so forth.
    .
    “quarters of the Profressional Pity Party Grievance Sistahood that wants to shut voices like mine down, because we’re getting tired of hearing the constant complaints over nothing at the end of the day and are starting to demand that Black Women start taking a good, hard look as to why the real problems in their lives are not only going unaddressed by them, but are often of their own making. As my blog shows, the truth, hurts…”

    J: Black women have to listen to the gripes of other people all of the time, so you can choose to listen to black women’s gripes or not.

    O: Uh, isn’t it Black Women who try to, in one way or another, to shut down Hip Hop? Yea, real openminded cohort there…

    J: I haven’t read where anyone is trying to shut you up, not nearly to the extent you try to shut black women up, on your site and her.

    O: Uh huh…

    J: If you’re talking about your site’s shut down, didn’t YOU say here somewhere that was because you infringed on that woman’s rights?

    O: Yes, that’s correct; it was based on a technicality, but one that was used for other than honorable reasons. The actual reason was because she nor her White Knight enabling boyfriend couldn’t attack what I said, and she couldn’t hack it, and so, there you go.

    J: Why blame her, if you’re blaming her.

    O: I blame her because that’s where the blame belongs.

    J: I certainly wouldn’t care whether voices like yours are out there or not because I can choose to listen or not. I’m “choosing” to listen to you and I’m choosing to respond. I “chose” to read your posts on your site. No one forced me. NO ONE is forcing you to listen to black women.

    O: No? Their voice is ubiquitous, from Oprah on down. Black Women have had their voices heard continuously for what, easily two decades running now – with no end in sight? Sheesh…

    J: YOU are the one who’s seemingly trying to shut down black women’s venting voices by exhorting black women repeatedly to be quiet and model their behavior after short men. You and anyone else can ignore black women if you don’t want to hear them vent, yet you’re now accusing black women of trying to shut you up. :;)

    O: Nonsense, please point out to me the blogs or writers I want to see shutdown or silenced? I’ll wait…

    Keep trying, Jorbia, one of these days you’ll get it… 😉

    O.

    Like


  373. Kwamla,
    Please see my replies to Sam and Jorbia for answers to your questions put to me. If you have any further questions, by all means don’t hesitate to ask!:)

    O.

    Like


  374. Kwamla,

    Well if anyone needs to move on, shouldn’t it be Abagond? There wouldn’t be a conversation if he didn’t write a post about it.

    Move on, Abagond, move on! Don’t make me get the cattle prod. 😛

    Like


  375. @ Anon

    The general scientific consensus seems to be that while it is possible to isolate genetic differences between racial populations, those differences don’t amount to anything more significant than differences within racial populations, which may be even more variable.

    Like


  376. Anon,
    “Lewontin’s fallacy, really Zek? I thought you were too smart. That’s SNP pairs, not alleles. We’re also over 94% genetically the same as mice, by that metric. ”

    the difference is mice and people cannot reproduce and have viable offspring togethere…whereas humans of different “ethnicities,” can reproduce and have completely healthy, viable offspring. if we were really that genetically/biologically different could we do that??

    Like


  377. “The general scientific consensus seems to be that while it is possible to isolate genetic differences between racial populations, those differences don’t amount to anything more significant than differences within racial populations, which may be even more variable.”

    There’s a “general scientific consensus” on whatever reporters decide is politically correct at the moment. Behind the scenes, there’s a lot more controversy. Multi-regionalism is coming back in a big way. The recent neanderthal admixture revelation is just the tip of the iceberg. Prepare yourself for more admixture papers, again in some populations and not others. Also mentally prepare yourself for what China is doing researchwise with genetics and intelligence.

    To your point, another liberal creationist fallacy often trouted about is the “within population differences exceed group differences”, due to the liberal war on statistical thinking.

    There’s more weather variation at the locales of florida and NY than there is between them. That doesn’t mean they have the same overall climates.

    There’s more height variation between people in Thailand than there is between Thailand and the US. That doesn’t mean that Thais will produce any numbers of NBA players anytime soon.

    etc

    etc

    “the difference is mice and people cannot reproduce and have viable offspring togethere”

    Which completely makes my point. Small differences have huge effects. Genes have to be looked at via their funtional units, which are alleles, not SNPs.

    Like


  378. Why do liberal creationists expect that all human traits will be distributed EXACTLY EVENLY across all human populations across space and time, despite enourmously varying selective pressures? Why do they believe that human evolution stopped at the neck?

    What god is overseeing this magical thing?

    Like


  379. @ Anon,

    The fact that human-beings are 99.99% the same actually means a lot more than an interesting grammar lesson. But good attempt at making a bad a parallel! Yes, we are 94% similar to mice — and 98% similar to apes — but to other humans we are 99.99% similar. Hell, some populations are even closer than that, and they don’t even live that close! But like I said, good try.

    Now, I’m sure Steve Hsu is a wonderful astrophysicist, but frankly that doesn’t mean a damn thing. (In his post he’s speculating on the reason for IQ variation as much as anyone I noticed.) It’s simply put: not his field. Oh, and one person or even two people who say something does not make it true — no matter how much you want it to be ; )

    But I do mention the SPLC and ADL because those are groups whose main issues are dealing with racism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of prejudice. They keep an eye out for things like that. However, if you want scientists who’re saying the same thing, let me give you some: American Anthropologist magazine, Journal of Black Studies, American Psychological Association, American Anthropological Association, Stephen Jay Gould, James Flynn, the list goes on and on, but I don’t really want to ramble.

    The point is: HBD has been debunked. It’s about as scientific as intelligent design or creationism.

    Hopefully you don’t believe in those either.

    P.S. Lewontin is Jewish. In the HBD world shouldn’t that make him smarter than Hsu or Sailer, or even you? Hell, since I’m Jewish too, I guess that means I’m smarter than you as well! =P

    Like


  380. Zek,
    Actually, per the reasoning of the HBDers, you would indeed be cognitively superior to Gentile Whites and even many Asians, on average. Jewish folk are deemed to be among if not thee smartest of the White races.

    Again, to me the point of interest is, what do the HBDers wish to do with the “supreme knowledge”? Again, I maintain that science doesnt mean a heck of a lot without seeing how it actually plays out in the real world, like all ideas, no matter what their origin. It seems clear to me that the HBDers want to change or otherwise influence public policy – that, because some racial groups aren’t as smart as others, it is a waste of public resources to invest in say, schools in Black neighborhoods, or Affirmative Action and how it should be ended because it gives opportunities to inherently dimmer Blacks and shunts aside more deserving Whites, and so forth. Because of the way the debate” is structured right now, we can infer these things, but we never get to hear these things come straight from the HBDers themselves, and the big reason for that is because we keep quibbling over the science of it or the lack thereof. I want to hear them say, outright, what they intend to DO with HBD. That’s a much more fruitful and engaging discussion to have, on a whole host of levels, rather than a somewhat limiting and esoteric to layman’s ears, debate over its science, legitimate or not.

    This is why I support Jason’s view – let’s have a full throated debate on HBD, in the public square. This will give the HBDers the chance to state how things would be run if they had the chance to do so – and it then gives us the chance to examine, in the light of day, their views.

    See, I don’t need science, one way or another, to deal with HBD. All I need are commonsense and the US Constitution.

    Period.

    I say, bring on the HBDers! They don’t stand a chance…

    O.

    Like


  381. …expect that all human traits will be distributed EXACTLY EVENLY across all human populations across space and time, despite enourmously varying selective pressures?

    My guess would be insufficient time in isolation for significant changes to occur.

    Like


  382. “It’s simply put: not his field. ”

    Actually, it is.

    That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.

    Do you think the Beijing Genome Institute would be inviting him for lectures and collaboration if he knew nothing? Since he gets paid to work in the field, it is his field. Now.

    “But I do mention the SPLC and ADL because those are groups whose main issues are dealing with racism, anti-Semitism, and other forms of prejudice. They keep an eye out for things like that. ”

    They are left-wing (at least when it comes to America, on Israel, they curiously take a more sensible tack – wonder why?) political groups who smear anyone who doesn’t agree with their version of blank slate liberal creationism.

    “However, if you want scientists who’re saying the same thing, let me give you some: American Anthropologist magazine, Journal of Black Studies, American Psychological Association, American Anthropological Association, Stephen Jay Gould, ”

    Anthropology hardly counts as science. And why don’t you ask any evolutionary biologist what they think of SJG? (Hint: his reputation in the field is as lustrous as mud, and it has nothing to do with just M.o.M.)

    “James Flynn”

    The only respectable person you’ve named thusfar, since he was last, I hope you’ll continue that trajectory. Personally, I think if you take the time to read the rebuttals, Flynn gets pwned quite handsomely. But at least he deals with data and not verbal gymnastic or anthropological “interpretive soft science” like most anthropologists (I grant there are a few good ones, however most of the field hardly counts as science).

    “The point is: HBD has been debunked. It’s about as scientific as intelligent design or creationism.”

    ?

    HBD is a natural consequence of rejecting creationism. You don’t know what you are talking about, if you think you can tie HBD to creationism!

    The same evolutionary pressures that caused visible differences between you and your GF caused other differences as well.

    “Lewontin is Jewish. In the HBD world shouldn’t that make him smarter than Hsu or Sailer, or even you? Hell, since I’m Jewish too, I guess that means I’m smarter than you as well!”

    You must be on the left side of the jewish bell curve if you think you can directly project group averages on individual performance.

    Like I said, liberals have declared war on statistical truths.

    “My guess would be insufficient time in isolation for significant changes to occur.”

    Tell that to lactose tolerace, Sickle cell, or to other MEASURABLE differences like brain size and performance. : )

    How many white men have run the 100m dash in under 10 seconds again? How many non-West Africans?

    Come on man, take off your blinders.

    Like


  383. HBD is everywhere you look: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1261675/

    Take off the blinders and don’t be a liberal creationist.

    Like


  384. Hahaha, Anon, you’re like a text-book case of scientific racism. You’re something straight out of a comic-book!

    You’re grabbing at any straw to prove your point and ignoring all the people telling you they’re not gonna hold up the stack of cards.

    It’d be funny if it didn’t remind me that people like you actually exist. So sad =/

    But I’ll pass on further debate. The world proved that what you’re saying is wrong a loooooong time ago, and has been doing it every day since.

    P.S. Read Abagond’s Last Man Talking post. You might be a text-book case there too.

    Like


  385. Anon,

    That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.

    I am sorry, but it doesn’t work that way.

    Like


  386. @ Calculator

    said about the research that men are naturally drawn to fairer skin thats a bag of bull. the white men that are surrounded by black women are very much attracted to them. you should see white men in africa, and the carribbean. it is very natural for male and female to be attracted to each other no matter what race.

    i’m sorry nichole kidman do not look better than halle berry as fair as she be, and she don’t look better than jennifer lopez to me. also white is associated with purity and virgin. please in some cultures white women are looked at as the most immoral women on earth, men just want to screw them thats it.

    its taught and marketed and depends on what society you live in. white men and white women was taught these myths by their parents and very much master taught it to his slaves and his bastard children etc. distributed by white supremacy. its the respect behind it for black and white. they where taught not to respect black women. all this preference bullcrap doesn’t come naturally babe. it have alot to do with money and power . OLUMFEMI seem to be making sense. the people that will more understand what i’m talking about is the ones that travels. its not one standard of beauty

    excuse my spelling

    Like


  387. medium says,
    @ Calculator

    said about the research that men are naturally drawn to fairer skin thats a bag of bull. the white men that are surrounded by black women are very much attracted to them. you should see white men in africa, and the carribbean. it is very natural for male and female to be attracted to each other no matter what race.
    its taught and marketed and depends on what society you live in. white men and white women was taught these myths by their parents and very much master taught it to his slaves and his bastard children etc. distributed by white supremacy. its the respect behind it for black and white. they where taught not to respect black women. all this preference bullcrap doesn’t come naturally babe. it have alot to do with money and power . OLUMFEMI seem to be making sense. the people that will more understand what i’m talking about is the ones that travels. its not one standard of beauty

    excuse my spelling

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT comment, medium.

    ANTI-BW RACISM is the REAL REASON MOST American men DISCRIMINATE against BW.

    Like


  388. I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true. I don’t think it is polite or very nice though. There’s not a single policy that public HBD acceptance would bring about that you can’t get to from a classical liberal position. There’s no need to rub in people’s faces facts about group differences just to argue against policies like affirmative action. Ward Connerly does fine without it.

    Like


  389. I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true.

    So you think your swirled kids are likely to be more athletic, but unfortunately, less intelligent than you are.

    Like


  390. I feel like the odd one out here, because I’m a “swirler” (WM married to BW with kids) who actually thinks “HBD” is true.

    That’s bizarre.

    Like


  391. That Anon guy is hilarious! And this HBD is really funny! Are these comedians or what?:-D

    “That’s the thing about being a physicist, you’re smart enough to do pretty much whatever you want.”:-D

    Don’t kid yourself Anon. I have a world class physicist in my family and even he does not belive that crap. And I can assure you, this Steven Hsu guy is no where near my relatives class in physics internationally, no where near. 😀

    And what is this thing about evolution? Are you seriously denying it? That is hilarious!! You may not know but nowhere, absolutely nowhere in the field of science, in the World, that is outside of the US based creationist cuckoo circles, nobody is seriously thinking that. If you think they are, try to study evolution. It may not be what your preacher has told you. 😀

    I understand that you are scared for some who-knows-why reason that there are smart people in other colors too and that they might be much better in all aspects of life than you, but hey, thats the way things are. You can pretend all you want that some weirdo “science” proves that you are smarter than they are just because of your skin color but let me get you in on a secret: it does not. 😀

    And how this HDB or what the F it was is connected to the subject at hand? Does this Hocus Pocus prove that white women are gentically prettier than black? 😀 What a science, what a science! 😀

    Like


  392. White men generally think that white women are more attractive. White women generally think that white men are more attractive. Black men generally think that black women are more attractive. Black women generally think that black men are more attractive. And so on. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to this but as a general rule it’s valid.

    These preferences are reflected in the media. That’s really all there is to it. If the markets were such that blacks were the largest and most profitable group then probably the general standards would be different.

    It doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is “racist” if they have a preference. They may be or they may not be. Most people have preferences. Some are stronger than others.

    Again, getting too bent out of shape over things you can’t control doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense. What is more under a person’s control, the aesthetic and sexual preferences of billions of people or how they relate and respond to the loved one/significant other(s) in their own life?

    Support media that you like and do not support media that you don’t like. But if a person wants to do a Pickett’s Charge against something as hidebound as people liking themselves, good luck with that.

    Like


  393. “It doesn’t necessarily mean that a person is “racist” if they have a preference. They may be or they may not be. Most people have preferences. Some are stronger than others.”

    You’re missing the point. It’s not whether a PERSON’S preference is racist. It’s whether society as a whole is racist for promoting the idea that WW are the most beautiful and BW are the least.

    This is a great example of how inextricably woven into the fabric of society white supremacy is.

    Like


  394. “You’re missing the point. It’s not whether a PERSON’S preference is racist. It’s whether society as a whole is racist for promoting the idea that WW are the most beautiful and BW are the least.”

    Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.

    There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.

    Like


  395. “White men generally think that white women are more attractive. White women generally think that white men are more attractive. Black men generally think that black women are more attractive. Black women generally think that black men are more attractive. And so on. Obviously there are plenty of exceptions to this but as a general rule it’s valid.”

    you speak as if these preferences are perfectly natural. Is that what you think?

    Like


  396. @ Obsidian

    O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.

    Well, if you have taken it upon yourself to be the consultant to all black women, then I guess you shouldn’t have any objection to Bill Cosby taking it upon himself to be the consultant to all black American men. You also shouldn’t object to black women or anyone else telling black men what to do either because fair is fair.

    About black women poorly choosing mates, I completely agree. I don’t know why they even bother with those men. There are apparently a very low level of professional black men, compared to black women, so I don’t know why they would even focus on those few men. Someone certainly needs to convince black men to stay in school, but I know that you don’t approve of that, so excuse me for being a consultant to black men about that. 🙂

    About that conversation about black men that you seem to want, it seems to me that black men are constantly talked about and it’s often said they are failing on every front. I don’t know exactly what else you think needs to be said. Don’t you get tired of hearing that?

    @ Shady Grady

    Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.

    It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.

    And–

    There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.

    Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.

    Like


  397. “And what is this thing about evolution? Are you seriously denying it? That is hilarious!!”

    Those high-IQ physicist genes do not run strong in you, my padawan.
    Try reading comprehension. His point is that HBD-denialism IS creationism. Denying HBD is akin to denying evolution, for incredibly obvious reasons. There’s no “social construct” that gives Aboriginals brains that are only 80% the size of European brains, for instance.

    The best way to demonstrate HBD is to compare blacks and Asians. Blacks on average have smaller, lighter brains and -not coincidentally- significantly lower IQs than NE Asians. Every study that has looked at it, has come to the same conclusion. Blacks are also physically much more robust, with higher proportions of fast-twitch muscles. Thus they dominate athletic events that Asians could never dream of being competitive in, such as the 100M dash.

    These group averages do not mean there is no overlap in the distributions, before anyone brings up that idiotic counterpoint again.

    Why is HBD silenced in public discourse nowadays? Well, look at the tempest in a teapot in Oceania over the Maori “warrior gene”. That’s just a small fraction of the outrage that would occur if studies showing racial differences in average cognitive ability came to light.

    Fortunately, thanks in no small part to research in homogenous China that is undertaken completely free of the PC demands of underperforming minorities, within a few years the truth will be widely known. Blank Slatism is false. Creationism is false. Humans were not all created equal, because we were not created. William Saletan bravely tried to prepare liberals for this eventuality here: http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

    Like


  398. The fact of the matter is, yes, society does make white women, on average, seem more beautiful than they are. The fact of the matter is, though admittedly I have no studies by which to prove this, most people are “average” looking. Further, one’s understanding of beauty is both influenced by nature and nurture, so I wouldn’t be surprised if a white male who lived a rather insular existence (e.g.-lived in a predominantly white suburb/city/town, watched television programs with predominantly white people being featured, watched movies with a predominantly white cast, etc.) showed a distinct preference toward white women. Further, I wouldn’t be surprised if any man/male raised under those circumstances, or similar ones, presented the same or a similar preference.

    However, what one comes to understand based on these conclusions is that the understanding of beauty as we know it is not objective, ergo no one can actually say whether or not any “group/race” of women is the “most beautiful”. Society, at least as it currently stands in the States, is inundated with images and subliminal messages which try to get you to buy into an ideal which may, or may not, be in one’s best interest or make any rational sense.

    Regardless, I believe it is patently foolish, not to mention ridiculous, to make assertions pertaining certain types of beauty being universal. For all we know, further down the line of human development and evolution, straight hair, or hair period, could be found to be absolute repulsive. The same could be said for certain coloured eyes, hair colours, etc. Concepts of beauty are not stagnant or eternal, so if you someone wants to believe that white women are the most beautiful women on earth based on some nonobjective unpeer-reviewed (yes, I made that word up) “study”, I say let them.

    In some length of time, whether short of long, they’ll just end up looking silly and archaic as humanity, as a species, marches on.

    Like


  399. Hello Jorbia,
    Replies below:

    J: @ Obsidian

    O: Yes, that’s right, and most of what they consider important to them, is either off-base to begin with, or deeply flawed for other reasons. Very often, we are incapable of being objective about these kinds of things. That’s why consultants became important.

    J: Well, if you have taken it upon yourself to be the consultant to all black women, then I guess you shouldn’t have any objection to Bill Cosby taking it upon himself to be the consultant to all black American men. You also shouldn’t object to black women or anyone else telling black men what to do either because fair is fair.

    O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!

    J: About black women poorly choosing mates, I completely agree.

    O: So why aren’t Black Women like YOU addressing that?

    J: I don’t know why they even bother with those men.

    O: Again, Black Women like YOU need to be stepping to these Sistas. But you aren’t. Why NOT?

    J: There are apparently a very low level of professional black men, compared to black women, so I don’t know why they would even focus on those few men.

    O: That’s easy. Its called hypergamy.

    J: Someone certainly needs to convince black men to stay in school, but I know that you don’t approve of that, so excuse me for being a consultant to black men about that.

    O: I don’t take a position one way or another wrt Black Men and college/school; what I say is that there is more than one way to actualize oneself in this world, and we ought not be boxed into a corner on this issue. Black Women though, like all Women, are creatures of the heard, and have a very difficult time thinking outside of the box – this is especially true of Black Women who’ve had the college experience. So, this is one of the reasons why they find themselves in the situation they’re in when it comes to relationships. There are other reasons, but as we’ve both established, Black Women in aggregate aren’t a terribly introspective lot, hence the need for people like me to make this plain and clear to them. Of course, the likelihood that they’ll actually listen and apply any of this is another matter – I won’t hold my breath, that’s for sure…

    J: About that conversation about black men that you seem to want, it seems to me that black men are constantly talked about and it’s often said they are failing on every front. I don’t know exactly what else you think needs to be said. Don’t you get tired of hearing that?

    O: No, because that’s not what I’m asking; I am asking for Black Men to speak in their own words on these issuesw. Black Men are talked about, as you rightly noted, but they rarely if ever are asked to speak for themselves. If we listen, we just might be surprised at what they have to say. I’ll give you a clue – rappers.

    J: @ Shady Grady

    Society (at least in the US) is mostly white. It is nothing more than the aggregate of millions of individual preferences. It would be unusual to say the least if media that was largely made for and by white people, reflected anything other than the sum of white preferences-which is ..white.

    It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.

    And–

    There is plenty of black media created for a black consumer. That’s what people need to create, support and consume. There is no other solution.

    Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.

    O: Then the solution is for more darker skinned Women to make their own media, like Oprah Winfrey did. In fact, they can directly appeal to her for help and funding, etc, especially now that she has her own network. Stop complaining about what others want for themselves. Life isn’t fair, and you don’t have a right to a Man, nor do you have the right to determine for him what he thinks is or is not beautiful.

    O.

    Like


  400. jas0nburns wrote
    “you speak as if these preferences are perfectly natural. Is that what you think?”

    Beauty is both biologically and culturally determined. It does seem to be universal that all else equal each group on average thinks itself to be the epitome of beauty. Humans are tribalistic. I don’t see that changing any time soon.

    Like


  401. In my opinion, black women are just as beautiful as white woman. Our beauty maybe different but it is just as pleasing as any other group. We have beautiful brown skin, full sultry lips, voluptous figures, and beautiful almond shaped eyes. The only thing some black women don’t have, according to most people, is the hair. But that, in my opinion, is just a myth as well. Many black women do have long, thick hair. Beauty, in my opinion, is a result of being healthy. If you take good care of yourself and are healthy, plus have a positive attitude about yourself, then you are way more likely to be beautiful. Race has nothing to do with it. We live in a society that says that you have to be white in order to be beautiful, but that is just one of the many lies that this society tries to force down our throats. In the 70’s, we celebrated our beauty. We allowed our hair to be natural and we believed that “black is beautiful”. And, oh boy, our people were so beautiful and elegant, back then. What a wonderful time. We need to get back to that.

    Like


  402. “There is NOTHING “child like” about racism. It is an Adult disease which children are TAUGHT. Further, YOUR idea of racism is mixed with critique. We are discussing an issue. No one is being racist and EVERYONE is entitled to their opinon. ”

    The vast majority of racism is expressed in a subtle/coded/passive aggressive form. Anti-mixed racism is almost entirely of this variety so most people don’t even recognize that it exists. The one drop rule functions to conceal black on mixed racism.

    Like


  403. We, as a people, shouldn’t wait for white people to find us attractive. What do white people have to do with it anyway? If we wait for other races to put us on a pedestal, we will be waiting for a long time. It is up to us to define for ourselves what beauty is. We did it in the 70’s, quite successfully, I might add. And we can do it again. I hate to say this, but sometimes we can be our own worst enemies. No one can make you feel inferior without your permission. In the 70’s, we celebrated our natural beauty, but for some reason, our people started to abandon those principles. By the late-70’s, we started to embrace white standards of beauty again. We abandoned our Afro’s and began to take up old patterns of behavior. I am not saying that one has to wear an Afro in order to promote black beauty, but we should develope similar attitudes that we once had before. We can’t wait for the larger society to embrace us. Like I said before, they don’t have anything to do with it. We must do it.

    Like


  404. And black women, don’t wait for all black men to accept your beauty either. A few black men may not care about how black women are perceived, because they may feel that if it doesn’t affect them, why should they care? It is a lack of sensitivity and maturity on their part. Don’t let it stop you from treasuring yourself. Make the right choices for you, no matter what anyone might think. If you don’t love yourself, then no one will. So practice self-love and don’t let other people’s attidude get you down.

    Like


  405. jorbia wrote

    “It seems like whites choosing white based on their “preference” is okay with you? If you’re a black man, that’s surprising because don’t you see that whites will ALSO choose other whites for the best jobs, the best health care, the best housing, and so on. That’s exactly why white racism is viewed as bad and needs to be eradicated. When you consider the HUGE power differential between blacks and whites, white “preference” for other whites is always going to be very bad news for blacks.”

    I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate. As the US society we have made, or tried to make open discrimination in housing, jobs, justice illegal. I think that is a good thing. We have used the power of the state to prevent that, try to root that out and punish it when it happens. The attempts to do that are not as vigorous as they were before , which I think is mostly bad. And such attempts were met with quiet determined resistance at every step. And in many cases they just didn’t work at all.

    But there is -to my mind anyway- a HUGE difference between the state or an employee/would be employee suing someone because they did not hire or promote Blacks and suing someone because they did not date/marry enough Blacks. If I want to go work for Scarlett Johansson and she tells me that she does not hire Blacks , I have a case. If on the other hand I want to date Scarlett Johansson (assuming for this argument she wasn’t married already LOL) and she tells me that she doesn’t date Blacks then that’s just too bad for me.

    I have no recourse and just need to deal with it. She has the right to her preference. The state can not interfere with that.

    If, as is the case, millions of white Americans feel the same way as that hypothetical actress, the media that they consume will reflect their views. I can sit there and complain and allow other people to control how I see myself or I can move on.

    jorbia wrote:

    “Even in black media, there tends to be a preference for lighter more European looking women, so that is not the solution, at least not from the standpoint of a lot of black American women, apparently . I’ve read many times where American black women have criticized black American men about their tendency to think that whiter women are more beautiful.”

    See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining. Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?

    All that a person can do in life is make the best of the gifts that they do have and find someone who appreciates them. Being concerned about what millions of people think is silly. Folks only need to concern themselves with what their significant other thinks.

    Like


  406. Here is a song by India Arie. I love it!!!

    Like


  407. @ shady grady

    i don’t know what your talking about because. this kinda of mindset goes a long way. its not only in america. you said america is prodominately white. china and india etc. have these same type of issues and these are people that are living in a prodominately asian enviroment. not only that they rate black women as the lowest on the scale . you said that white prefer white and black prefer black. well in this society alot of black do not prefer black.they also was taught to prefer white.

    Like


  408. Not to derail the discussion about “HBD” any further but why is it that the perpetrators are so obsessed with “liberals” and socio-political concepts? In all of their pamphlets I see at least one mention of “the liberals” or “the left”. If they claim scientific value, this whole controversy should be entirely and purely about natural science. There should be no rhetoric whatsoever about political concepts. If they have scientific proof beyond all doubts, peer-reviewed and confirmed they could care less about politics. Just bring on the data in all its details for review.

    Back to the subject of why white women are considered more beautiful. If the socio-political supremacists claim to be scientists, they should be able to come up with a scientific explanation why so many white men in Europe, Africa and the Caribbean are attracted to black women. To the point that they actually get married and keep very long and healthy relationships.

    Like


  409. black women are devauled by society and it has hurt us in different types of way.that every race you could possible think of look down on us. what make this issue worst is that they have brainwash the blackmen to have these same views. the main point to this topic. the black women has been abandoned. robbed

    women are here to mate with men and bring fourth their offspring . become one and try to survive . now do you get the point. the most serious problem. they have broken her home. then tell her she’s unfit. tell her she’s ugly, and tell men of all creed not to marry or mate with her.

    Like


  410. @ olefemi

    as i said people who travel will understand. more white men very much find black women beautifull and at times its not about physical beauty. here in america the culture do glorify white beauty. africa the motherland have some of the most beautifull black women. maybe the reason they don’t market our beauty is because they don’t want it to go against them.

    Like


  411. @Olufemi

    That is right! African women in other parts of the world are valued far more than here in the United States. I personally think that the U.S is an extremely racist country. And part of their scheme to hold on to their priviledge is to constantly say that black women are “ugly”. They realize that if blacks began to have a more positive attitude about themselves, they will be far more successful. A group of people can’t survive if they consciously or subconsciously hate themselves or hate their own women. It is all about divide and conquer. And what is sad about it is that many black men go right along with this plot. They could resist but for some reason( self hatred, selfishness,) they don’t. How can we as a people survive, if we don’t support one another? If our people don’t make it, we have no one but ourselves to blame. Period. Lets end self-destruction right now.

    Like


  412. @ Obsidian–
    O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!

    Maybe you selectively listen to black women? Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. :-). It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.

    You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.

    It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on. Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining. 🙂 You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america. If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?

    Like


  413. @ Shady Grady–

    I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate.

    This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.

    You proved my point by making this statement:

    See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.

    People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.

    Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?

    But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.

    My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world. When you travel, you notice this a lot.

    I didn’t grow up in America. In my family, there are all complexions. When higher class people came to visit, my darker cousins with different hair were kept in the back room. I know that sounds incredible, but that happened. Because my complexion and hair are considered “pleasing” or “presentable,” I was allowed to meet the guests. But you seem to be saying that somebody has to be kept in the back room, so the darker people should just grin and bear it?

    Like


  414. @ medium & Jeri
    Absolutely. People need to get out more and broaden their horizon first hand instead of just blindly believing what others write. Those “others” who clearly have an agenda.

    Just another trivial anecdote but when was in the shop today there was an attractive blond woman (that Italian style blond, apparently fake maybe not, darker skin, dark eyes). Anyway, an amazingly beautiful black woman entered the shop and I could immediately sense men’s eyes (my own included ;)) veer off the blond woman towards the black woman. Guess what, most of the men were white.

    Like


  415. @ jeri

    overall teach our children, family,etc to be proud to be black. don’t be afraid to speak up and realize that this is a problem. take action. like tyler perry did and BET that aired black girls rock. talk to the youths. the people on this site can make a difference. its time to set it straight. i’m not afraid. thats how our ancestors made a difference.

    Like


  416. @olumfemi

    i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are.

    Like


  417. @olumfemi

    i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are. wow

    Like


  418. @ jorbia

    you go jorbia, shady grady is a master or he is still a slave

    Like


  419. @dumbmoch: 😀 you’re a funny guy!

    “The best way to demonstrate HBD is to compare blacks and Asians. Blacks on average have smaller, lighter brains and -not coincidentally- significantly lower IQs than NE Asians. Every study that has looked at it, has come to the same conclusion. Blacks are also physically much more robust, with higher proportions of fast-twitch muscles. Thus they dominate athletic events that Asians could never dream of being competitive in, such as the 100M dash.” 😀

    Suegetsu Shingo, bronze medal in Paris 2003 World Athletic Championships on 200 meters. Not bad for a asian who0 can not even dream to be competetive in these events. Naoki Tsukahara, 10,09 sec/100 meters. You can run faster, being a supreme white being yourself, eh?

    HBD is total crap from the scientific point of view. Chinese view people very often by racial standards and guess what, you are far below a chinese in their eyes. That is right! In China you are just one stinkin pink devil, that is all. So I find it very funny that you are praising chinese racism as an example how wonderful this racist “science” is since you are, in their scale, really just a stinkin pink devil. Nothing more at all. 😀

    As for the brain size. You do know that the neaderthals had bigger brains than you and your white supreme buddies, don’t you? Yeah, that is true. But hey, they must have been far superior than homo sapiens, even though they somehow dissappeared from the history. I mean, they had bigger brains than you or any of your heros. 😀

    Then again, what this HBD bull has got to do with the fact that the media promotes race standards? Nothing of course, but you being such an supreme white being don’t seem to get even that 😀

    This is truly hilarious!

    Like


  420. I don’t have much to add i just thought of something…
    How come “Angelic” is usually only used to describe a white person? It’s so annoying, i’ve seen many Black women who look angelic (cherub face ,wide bright eyes, pouty lips and an overall ‘innocent look’), but they are never described as “Angelic”. And yes, i know cherub is a white baby angel, but i’ve seen Black women with that face shape who look very Angelic (pure, innocent, cute, whatever..)

    Black women are usually described as “strong”, sexy, tough, fierce, hot etc..

    Never soft, beautiful, pretty etc etc

    I’ve seen many Black women who are very beautiful, but they are not seen as much in the media because the media prefers the Gabourey sidibes or the queen latifahs.
    Hollywood loves to pump out the Sara jessia parkers of white women and uphold them as the most desired and beautiful.
    I would love to see more of the Gabrielle Unions of Black women being represented in the media…

    Like


  421. @J:

    Hollywood loves to pump out the Sara jessia parkers of white women and uphold them as the most desired and beautiful.

    I would love to see more of the Gabrielle Unions of Black women being represented in the media…

    I would love to look like Gabrielle Union. She’s gorgeous! Sarah Jessica Parker has a horse face.

    Like


  422. I do think that there are plenty of beautiful female black entertainers that don’t get nearly the attention as their white counterparts, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone call Sarah Jessica Parker hot. In fact, I feel bad for here getting the titles of most unsexiest woman in the world. I even found a website dedicated to how much she looks like a horse. I don’t think she is a stunning beauty, but she’s not that ugly. There’s plenty of other entertainers I find just as “blah”.

    Like


  423. @Medium

    I agree with you wholly. We have to teach our children while they are young to love themselves. We must stop using terms like “bad hair” and tell our children that they are beautiful exactly how God made them. And you are right in that we cannot be afraid to speak up against those who spread lies about both African men and women. We are a beautiful and amazing group of people. We must continuously rebuke lies and those who support them.

    Like


  424. jorbia says,
    @ Obsidian–
    O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!
    -Maybe you selectively listen to black women? Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. . It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.
    -You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.
    -It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on. Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining. You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america. If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?
    @ Shady Grady–
    -I make a bit of a distinction between the public/the private and the intimate.
    -This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.
    -You proved my point by making this statement:
    -See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.
    -People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.
    -Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?
    -But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.
    -My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world.

    laromana says,
    jorbia, bravo to you for your EXCELLENT responses to the RACIST ANTI-BW DERAILERS.

    It’s so TYPICAL for RACIST ANTI-BW BM to CARE LESS about ANTI-BW RACISM/the MISTREATMENT of BW in America because BM have been MAINSTREAMED and have NO PROBLEM establishing relationships with women of ANY RACE (since there’s NO LONGER a STIGMA AGAINST MOST women of ANY RACE to who choose to date/marry them).

    On the other hand, MOST BW in America, are still NOT being treated like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN by MOST men of EVERY RACE.

    These RACIST ANTI-BW BM who PUBLILCLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE and DISRESPECT BW are the MAIN reason the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW is not respected in America.

    This is also why I strongly agree with you that ANTI-BW RACISM MUST BE CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED/DESTROYED whenever/whereever we see it practiced.

    Like


  425. Jeri says,
    @Olufemi

    That is right! African women in other parts of the world are valued far more than here in the United States. I personally think that the U.S is an extremely racist country. And part of their scheme to hold on to their priviledge is to constantly say that black women are “ugly”. They realize that if blacks began to have a more positive attitude about themselves, they will be far more successful. A group of people can’t survive if they consciously or subconsciously hate themselves or hate their own women. It is all about divide and conquer. And what is sad about it is that many black men go right along with this plot. They could resist but for some reason( self hatred, selfishness,) they don’t. How can we as a people survive, if we don’t support one another? If our people don’t make it, we have no one but ourselves to blame. Period. Lets end self-destruction right now.

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT point, jeri.

    RACIST ANTI-BW BM in America, are the only race of men who REFUSE to DEFEND the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of their SAME RACE women and, instead, GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to PUBLICLY DEGRADE, DEMEAN, and DISRESPECT BW.

    These RACIST, ANTI-BW BM then have the AUDACITY to DICTATE to BW about HOW we SHOULD/SHOULDN’T FEEL about our MISTREATMENT (and WHAT we SHOULD/SHOULDN’T DO about it) when THEY are MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS to it.

    They have SOME NERVE!

    Like


  426. Hi Jorbia,
    Replies below,

    @ Obsidian–
    O: I don’t recall Black Men complaining to the degree that Black Womendo, writ large. There is no Black Male equivalents to Oprah, or Essence, Jill Scott or Bene Viera. Do you? If so, I’d sure like to hear about them. By all means, run out a list so we can address them as well!

    J: Maybe you selectively listen to black women?

    O: Nope, you didn’t hear me stutter; I maintain exactly what I’ve previously said.

    J: Black women seem to annoy you, but you still seem to focus on them a lot. . It is normal for women to ease their stress by talking. ALL women do that.

    O: There is a big difference between “talking” and “complaining” and its time someone told Black Women, to whom this sort of thing applies, to actually start putting those “strong, independent” characteristics they brag about so much to good use, and Man Up and Shut Up. Black Women have no real stress to be complaining about, and what stress is there, its usually of their own making. There, I’ve said it.

    J: You also mentioned “hypergamy.” That’s also normal for ALL women. That’s a “selected” trait for women.

    O: Sure it is, but the problem for Black Women is that they aren’t as able to have their need for this met as much as say, Ms. Ann does. That’s just too bad. Adults understand that they can’t get everything they want in life. Trust me, the vast majority of Black Men would love to have a Dime on their arm too, but they somehow come to the realization that there simply ain’t enough of them to go around. Rather than bitching and whining about the dearth of Dimes in the world to go around, they somehow get on with the busines of living life by making do with the rest of the Black Women that are available, call it a day and keep it moving. Black Women have been whining and bitching about not enough “eligible” Black Men to go around now for a generation at least, and one would think that if their complainiong would have made a difference and changed things for the better it would have done so by now. It hasn’t, so they might as well give it a rest. They need to take a page out of Condoleeza Rice’s book, a very successful Black Woman who you never hear whining, moaning and bitching about such things. She accepts her lot in life with grace and dignity. Black Women could learn from her example.

    J: It seems that many black men complain a lot about how whites keep them down or won’t let them do things or treat them unfairly or white pumping drugs into black communities and on and on.

    O: Again – please name me the Black Male equivalents of Oprah, Essence, Jill Scott, Terri McMillan, Bene Viera, etc, et al? You have yet to supply me or the rest of the forum with a list of such individuals. I’ll wait…

    J: Whites definitely get tired of hearing that, but black men don’t stop complaining.

    O: See above.

    J: You complain a lot on your site about whites preventing black men from rising in the unions and in corporate america.

    O: Yup – I also say that Brothas Gonna Work It Out – Alone, too. I’ve yet to hear that kind of talk from the Sistahood…

    J: If black men are not blaming things on whites, they seem to blame all the rest of their shortcomings on black women, as you’re doing in this thread. Do black men ever talk to each other and hold each other accountable for anything?

    O: I don’t know; we rarely ask Black Men for their opinion on anything, now do we? Wait, we can point to one instance where a Black Man went out of his way on a very busy time of his life to “hold Black Men accountable” – Barack Obama made it a point to upbraid Black Men on a whole on Father’s Day, 2008. And by all accounts, the majority of Black Men went on to vote for him. I’m glad I didn’t. So, there you go. Please notice that he has yet to give any such Mother’s Day address to hold Sistas accountable, and has appeared on Oprah, the covers of Essence and Ebony, etc et al. SMH

    J: This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.

    O: Yup. Such is life.

    J: You proved my point by making this statement:

    See, here’s the thing. Whatever the preference is there will always be someone that’s left out. If dark skin were considered to be the best then lighter skinned women would be complaining.

    People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.

    O: So, how do you explain the success of Oprah or Rice, two darker skinned Black Women?

    J: Would anyone (any woman anyways) pay too much attention to a middle class or low class man that was constantly complaining he couldn’t get the women he really wanted because he didn’t make enough money or was too short?

    But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is.

    O: YES THEY ARE. And we have all manner of documented evidence to prove it, you just don’t want to deal with it because again, it upsets the pity party for the Sistahood apple cart. But too bad, you don’t get a special monopoly on such things, joine the club and grow up.

    J: Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same?

    O: YES.

    J: This is like comnparing night and day.

    No, it’s not.

    J: A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.

    O: There’s nothing stopping a Black Woman from flying to France and finding love there. Or many other points in Europe.

    J: My point is that preference based on how close a person is to beiing or looking white is at the root of so many problems throughout the world. When you travel, you notice this a lot.

    O: Evidentaly, you haven’t traveled enough yet…

    J: I didn’t grow up in America. In my family, there are all complexions. When higher class people came to visit, my darker cousins with different hair were kept in the back room. I know that sounds incredible, but that happened. Because my complexion and hair are considered “pleasing” or “presentable,” I was allowed to meet the guests. But you seem to be saying that somebody has to be kept in the back room, so the darker people should just grin and bear it?

    O: Not at all. They should leave deeply dysfunctional families like yours and surround themselves with people who appreciate them for who they are. The. End.

    🙂

    O.

    Like


  427. Medium wrote
    @ shady grady
    “i don’t know what your talking about because. this kinda of mindset goes a long way. its not only in america. you said america is prodominately white. china and india etc. have these same type of issues and these are people that are living in a prodominately asian enviroment. not only that they rate black women as the lowest on the scale . you said that white prefer white and black prefer black. well in this society alot of black do not prefer black.they also was taught to prefer white.”

    Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men.

    Like


  428. Jorbia wrote
    This may sound right, but the public and private are twins. If someone has a preference in private, they have that preference in public. No amount of laws will be able to prevent them from exercising their preference. They will find a way to not prefer you and they will find a way to justify it.

    (shrugs) The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.

    People of good morals need to work against these preferences. Whites make the exact same types of rationalizations when they want to discriminate against blacks. I’ve heard other whites say, “Well, somebody has to be poor . . .” in order to justify the structural racism that keeps blacks disproportionately poor. HBDers make the similar argument–that blacks are low on the totem pole because they have lower IQs. Both of these arguments attempt to justify a preference for Euro looks or Euro people.

    It is completely par for the course that white people tend to have a romantic/aesthetic/sexual preference for white people. Do you think that white people should have a preference for black people? How exactly would that have come about? Black people still have a preference for black people. Why would you expect whites to be any different? Why is it not enough for you that black people tend to prefer other black people? Are black people racist for having preferences for other black people?

    But class and height are not nearly the STOPPERS that complexion or race is. Why stretch to compare them? Do you really think they are the same? This is like comnparing night and day. A short man or a middle class or even a lower income American man can fly to another country and in a matter of hours get the most beautiful woman there, whereas a darkblack person is darkblack everywhere. Black people even discriminate against other blacks even in America and in other black countries. In some black countries, the blacks treat whites much better than they do blacks.

    No analogy is perfect but it’s not as much of stretch as you seem to think. Virtually universally in humanity, women prefer men who are taller than they are and/or make more money/have more wealth than they do. Women make no apologies for their preferences in this regard nor would I expect them to do so.

    Height of course is not at all something under an individual’s control and to a MUCH lesser extent ambition and success are also correlated with things that aren’t just up to an individual. But short men or men that make less money than some woman thinks they should don’t sit around complaining-when they do they are usually mocked by both men and women. LOL.

    Their solution is to work on other aspects of their attractiveness they have control over and find a woman that accepts them Life is far too short to be complaining that you can’t get some person you think you ought to have when there are millions more that would be happy to have you just as you are. If you can’t get the one you love, love the one you’re with…

    Like


  429. Medium wrote
    @olumfemi
    i’m telling you they don’t know its the structure. i have to be a little prejudice because i am a black women. have you seen the bone structure on some black women example angela bassett. from head to toe . i have never seen a white women that hold such structure. but i have seen black women that look just as angelic that they say white women are. Wow

    LOL. So it’s okay for YOU to have an aesthetic preference for people that look like you do but if white people do the same, THAT’S racism????

    If a white person said “You know I have never seen a black woman with the bone structure and beauty of Heidi Klum or Rachel Nichols. Black women just don’t look like that” would that be preference or racism? Hmmmmmmmmmm…

    Like



  430. laromana says,
    jorbia, bravo to you for your EXCELLENT responses to the RACIST ANTI-BW DERAILERS.
    It’s so TYPICAL for RACIST ANTI-BW BM to CARE LESS about ANTI-BW RACISM/the MISTREATMENT of BW in America because BM have been MAINSTREAMED and have NO PROBLEM establishing relationships with women of ANY RACE (since there’s NO LONGER a STIGMA AGAINST MOST women of ANY RACE to who choose to date/marry them).
    On the other hand, MOST BW in America, are still NOT being treated like NORMAL, HUMAN WOMEN by MOST men of EVERY RACE.
    These RACIST ANTI-BW BM who PUBLILCLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE and DISRESPECT BW are the MAIN reason the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW is not respected in America.

    Right. Because someone doesn’t agree with you they are of course by definition racist. O-kay.

    And it’s Black men’s fault that that White men aren’t dating or marrying Black women in the numbers you’d like to see. Got it!

    And Black men have been mainstreamed in America and are enthusiastically welcomed by all when they attempt to date/marry interracially. And those non-Black women on dating sites who list every man under the sun as acceptable BUT black men, they’re just playing hard to get. They really secretly like Black men. I never knew.

    And since there’s no longer a stigma against Black men marrying or dating women of any race, I guess we can presume that when the police stop a black man with a white woman in his car they are just coming to congratulate them both for bravely upholding diversity. I learn so much from you!!!!

    Like


  431. It is singularly unsurprising that media in a majority white country reflects white aesthetic values. I don’t deny that this can be a problem if you are not white. But there is no way consistent with our legal and constitutional system to change it.

    The only solution is to create, support and consume media that is directed at you. In large part that is why black media was created in the first place.

    There is no other alternative. White media is never ever ever going to consistently depict black standards of beauty. At most they will show a few tokens or outliers and/or black women that fit more closely to a white aesthetic.

    Again, the question is why are some people consuming media that is not made for them and then complaining about the taste. While I have complained about lack of black representation in some white media I found it much more productive and helpful to switch to media that was aimed at me.

    Like


  432. @Shady Grady–
    Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men

    It seems that black american men want a standing ovation for marrying black women. I mean that’s the way it sounds–as if you guys are doing black women a tremendous favor when you do marry them. 🙂 Did you mention anywhere what percentage of black american men marry?

    The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.

    The “state” is involved in EVERY aspect of life in most countries and definitely in the U.S. EVERYTHING is tracked and regulated in the U.S. The state even determines where you’re born and where you will be buried in MOST cases. The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours. If I knew enough about you, I could trace the fine hand of the state manipulating or guiding you in practically every single decision you’ve ever made. So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-)

    The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. 🙂 Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread. So, maybe you’ve decided to go along with the state, but at least be aware that you’re not making a “private” decision.

    Socially aware people with morals and principles don’t uphold a complexion hierarchy that has destroyed millions of people because complexion has nothing to do with the substance of a man or woman. Isn’t that what your civil rights movement was all about? If you are a black man, why would you support a complexion hierarchy?

    Bringing short men into this discussion trivializes this situation because this state-sponsored complexion hierarchy has KILLED millions of people or denied them access to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” I’ve never heard of the state doing this to short men.

    And for every white woman you could find with Heidi Klum’s bone structure, I’ll bet a black woman with that same bone structure could be easily found because when you consider all of the mixing that has occurred, especially in the U.S., race is a total social construct. I hope you’re aware that many whites in the U.S. have more than a few drops of black blood. Heck, in the U.S., I’m usually viewed as white in some places, and there are a lot of drops of black blood in my family.

    So, that desire for Klum’s bone structure is just a shield 🙂 for those who “prefer” to further support the complexion hierarchy. When whites desire to propagate themselves, there is nothing wrong with that . I actually have more respect for non-violent Stormfront folks than I do for black and white folks who support the complexion hierarchy while hiding behind “sheets.”

    Like


  433. Jorbia,
    Now you’re just souinding downright delusional. Nobody’s suggesting Black Men be awarded medals for being the mates of Black Women(!); SG, I and others were just pointing out the fact that Black Women were hardly going through life alone as a generation of spinsters, LOL. If a Black Woman wants a mate, she can get one, end of. But NO, her chances of landing a Prince Charming type guy, is gonna be slimmer than other groups of Men. Such is life, buit then again, like I said earlier, you don’t hear Black Men complaining about the dearth of verifab;e Dimes out there either. So it is, what it is. And Black Men somehow lower their expectations and get with the many Blacl Women who aren’t Halle Berry or Beyonce or Buff the Body and get on with it. Black Women just have to grow up and do the same thing.

    And you seriously contradicgted yourself when you said on the one hand that the State is all powerful and intrusive, yet somehow shorter Men are exempted from this. Again, there are documented studies showing how shorter Men are discriminated against on the job and off, in school and out, yet you can’t deal with that because again, it upsets the apple cart of Black Women as special vicrtim status. I and others like me, like Shady Grady and others, will continue to call BS on that and will keep bringong up iuncomfortable facts auntil Sistas learn to grow up, shuut up, and get on with the business of living their lives like the rest of us adults do.

    Oh, and btw, you’re welcome for the service. 😉

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  434. @ Jorbia

    Get down with your bad self!!!

    Like


  435. As Abagond himself pointed out the adage, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There are beautiful people of all races, both men and women included.
    But yes, the euro-centric viewpoint of beauty bores me to death….they want us to believe that there are a few predetermined set of criteria to be called beautiful….

    For example, some people may find Sandra Bullock pretty, so also Julia Roberts, Nicole Kidman, Kate Winslet, Sophia Loren, Audrey Hepburn (yikes to me) etc….you must have guessed my opinions on them by now…

    Tom Cruise is truly handsome, but so is Denzel Washington and by virtue of his personality, must be far more attractive altogether than Tom to many females (or males)…..

    It just “depends”….but beauty is a commodity, just like FMCG’s and hence there has to be a good marketing of it, and because of the “wealth tag” that the western world has on it, the concept of beauty as is sold in the market is also fixated likewise….

    Like


  436. @KM: hey, kate winslet was good looking in Titanic! Well, she was nude there, granted, but I like that! 😀

    Seriously, I think white women are no more beautiful than black women, or any other for that matter. I believe this is changing. It is up to us all that we open up and accept that beauty is subjective. I like women that somebody else doesn’t. It is ok. What is not ok is that the media keeps up this White is right dope. And we can, as the society, say to media houses: “hey, what about this girl or that woman? You say she’s not good because of her color, hips, hair?? WTF? Are you racists?” 😀

    Today that scares most media houses. Just tell them. Hey, there are women all shapes sizes and colors. Put them out there. Into the movies, magazines, papers, tv-shows etc. Pronto!
    Thank god there are no two similar women in this planet! I love them all 😀

    Like



  437. “The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”

    “The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped
    into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread.”

    “So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-) ”

    Utter and complete balderdash. I expected better.

    Again, you skipped the question, perhaps because it reveals more about your ideas about the proper limits of state power than you are comfortable stating openly. I’ll repeat… Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no???

    How would that work? Would it be like a Title IX for relationships or marriage?

    Joe Blow, a white man has decided to marry Suzie Cupcake, a white woman. Unfortunately for Joe Blow
    the local state complexion commission has decided that the quota of white/white marriages has already been reached in their area. Mr. Blow may marry Tamika Thomas, a Black woman or no one at all. Miss Cupcake on the other hand can’t be married at all, because not enough black women got married in the past quarter.

    Or Kevin Jenkins, a black man has decided to marry Keisha Williams, a black woman. Unfortunately for them, Keisha Williams had a white great-grandparent and is a bit too light-complected for the self-esteem of some of the local complexion commission members. Mr. Jenkins is therefore NOT allowed to marry Miss Williams. He may marry another black woman to be determined later, provided her skin tone is no lighter than that of Wesley Snipes. Miss Williams, on the other hand is to be given a free marriage pick from any available white bachelor.

    Ridiculous….

    Like


  438. jorbia you again miss my point. I make no claim of the relative beauty of Klum or Basset. I think they are equally attractive.

    The point is this:

    If if is okay for a self-described black female commenter to marvel at Basset’s beauty and even go so far as to say they’ve never seen such bone structure on a white woman, if it is okay for another commenter to claim that Loren’s beauty must have come from African ancestry and that she has a body like a black woman, then it OBVIOUSLY must be okay for whites to have preferences as well. These preferences will usually be white women OR black women that “look like” white women.

    Everybody likes their own group best. We see that in the comments. There is nothing wrong with that. Nothing is going to change that.

    Therefore one can either get in where they fit in OR they can continue to chase validation from the other group. The second path is a bit more fraught with insult and dislike but I guess it’s worth it for some. Whatever floats your boat. You are guaranteed the pursuit of happiness, not happiness itself. Perhaps the black women that are so bothered by this would do well to go talk to white men to see why white men are picking white women or Asian women over them if they are not satisfied with being picked first by black men.

    Like


  439. @Shady Grady–
    Again, you skipped the question, perhaps because it reveals more about your ideas about the proper limits of state power than you are comfortable stating openly. I’ll repeat… Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no???

    I thought it was clear from my comment that no, I don’t want the state to control ANY of my choices in ANY area of life, (stamping my foot here!) but I realize that it DOES influence the choices of all of us by shaping, manipulating, regulating us to like certain things and not like others. You seemed to be saying that YOUR intimate partners are a “private” decision, decided on by you, ALONE. I was just pointing out that that doesn’t occur.

    This topic of Agabond’s is actually saying exactly what I’m saying. Most commenters have agreed that white women are considered more beautiful BECAUSE the state has shaped and manipulated people into believing this. This favors whites because it means that white women will have a lot more opportunities and access than black women. Yet you and Obsidian are advising black women to just be quiet, “suck it up” and get on with life instead of supporting black women in saying this is state-sponsored racism. You guys seem to be SINGULARLY focused on telling black women not to expect white men to validate their beauty? My focus is elsewhere.

    State manipulation of the complexion hierarchy has almost always worked against black people across the board. Sorry to have burst anyone’s bubble, but I was surprised to find ANY blacks arguing that it’s best to just be quiet, suck it up and get on with life. Silence is a form of consent.

    Everybody likes their own group best.

    But is this actually true when it comes to american blacks and even with other groups of blacks? Many blacks have a marked preference for whites and all things Euro or more Euro-looking, even though they may say they prefer their own.

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  440. I’m going to step out of this at this point because I have some papers I must finish. 🙂 However, I’m in full support of any black, white, or other person who sees the dire need to tear away this insidious complexion hierarchy. In my life, I’ve been fortunate enough to meet people of all complexions and races who work to do this.

    Like


  441. @ shady grady

    i was the one that said i have never seen certain type of bone structure on a white woman.but i have seen black women that look so called angelic like they said white woman is. and have the same body structure. now be honest with your self and tell me if you have ever seen a white women with the structure of serena williams? i know what i’m talking about maybe your blind but black women is the only woman on earth that carry this structure. only hispanics comes close to it . jennifer lopez is very close to it. look at her face and look on her booty but i’ve seen firmer than that. this is what we call the strong body where i come from. this don’t have nothing to do with preference. for i for one don’t have that body. ok just showing off the diversity of our beauty. why do you think body builders tan. because their structure, bone mass and density shows up more. even if they go to the gym 50 times a day it still wouldn’t look the same.

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  442. @ shady grady
    “The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”

    shady grady
    you said this

    the state have shape you and your decisions is not soley yours

    your a hypocrite because almost everyone here on this blog is going against the state. and don’t want to be manipulated no more. anyone with a brain is capable of doing this. so you must be working for the states.
    .

    Like


  443. jorbia says,
    @Shady Grady–
    -Again, the overwhelming majority of black men who marry, marry black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who date, date black women. The overwhelming majority of black men who have children, have children with black women. I don’t know what stronger indication of revealed preferences exist than that. Nobody marries, dates, lives with, or has children with black women MORE than black men
    -It seems that black american men want a standing ovation for marrying black women. I mean that’s the way it sounds–as if you guys are doing black women a tremendous favor when you do marry them. Did you mention anywhere what percentage of black american men marry?
    -The state is not allowed to interfere with PRIVATE intimate decisions such as who we find attractive, or with whom we decide to date, marry or have children. I’m okay with that. Do you want the state to start interfering with those decisions? Yes or no.
    -The “state” is involved in EVERY aspect of life in most countries and definitely in the U.S. EVERYTHING is tracked and regulated in the U.S. The state even determines where you’re born and where you will be buried in MOST cases. The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours. If I knew enough about you, I could trace the fine hand of the state manipulating or guiding you in practically every single decision you’ve ever made. So of course your intimate partners are not a private decision. The state is there in the bedroom with you.:-)
    -The masses of blacks, whites, and others have been duped into thinking that their choice of intimate partner, along with many other decisions, is their “private” decision. Not true. This is a socially state-engineered decision in MOST cases. Some of us are very aware of this and some have pointed this out in this thread. So, maybe you’ve decided to go along with the state, but at least be aware that you’re not making a “private” decision.
    -Socially aware people with morals and principles don’t uphold a complexion hierarchy that has destroyed millions of people because complexion has nothing to do with the substance of a man or woman. Isn’t that what your civil rights movement was all about? If you are a black man, why would you support a complexion hierarchy?
    -Bringing short men into this discussion trivializes this situation because this state-sponsored complexion hierarchy has KILLED millions of people or denied them access to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” I’ve never heard of the state doing this to short men.
    -And for every white woman you could find with Heidi Klum’s bone structure, I’ll bet a black woman with that same bone structure could be easily found because when you consider all of the mixing that has occurred, especially in the U.S., race is a total social construct. I hope you’re aware that many whites in the U.S. have more than a few drops of black blood. Heck, in the U.S., I’m usually viewed as white in some places, and there are a lot of drops of black blood in my family.
    -So, that desire for Klum’s bone structure is just a shield for those who “prefer” to further support the complexion hierarchy. When whites desire to propagate themselves, there is nothing wrong with that . I actually have more respect for non-violent Stormfront folks than I do for black and white folks who support the complexion hierarchy while hiding behind “sheets.”

    jorbia,
    Again, you’ve delivered an EXCELLENT response to the ANTI-BW DERAILERS who continue trying to MISREPRESENT comments posted by BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS on this post.

    The FACT is that, in America, BW are/have HISTORICALLY been told that features that are COMMON to BW are UGLY on them but BEAUTIFUL on NON-BW.
    Also, American men of ALL RACES have been told that BW are “NOT GOOD ENOUGH to DATE/MARRY BECAUSE THEY ARE BW” PERIOD.

    Of course these are CLEAR examples of ANTI-BW RACISM and these practices CONTINUE to affect the way BW are viewed/treated in America to this day.

    No matter how hard the DERAILERS try to TWIST the TRUTH, they can’t HONESTLY DENY the REALITY of the MISTREATMENT of BW.

    The only way to CHANGE ANTI-BW RACIST ATTITUDES/ACTIONS is to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/ and DESTROY ANTI-BW RACISM WHENEVER/WHEREVER it is PRACTICED.

    Like


  444. Kwamla says,
    Such is the nature of racism and its effects. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away. Particular in the minds or PERCEPTIONS of people as PEANUT has already pointed out. Taking on board both of those statements in the minds of Black people – unchallenged. Can lead to all sorts of peculiar internalized perceptions of what is and what is not perceived as beautiful.

    laromana says,
    Kwamla, this is such an EXCELLENT point.
    Thanks for confronting the DERAILERS and challenging their WARPED thinking regarding WHY it’s NECESSARY that ANTI-BW RACISM be ACKNOWLEDGED/CONDEMNED/DESTROYED.

    Like


  445. @Shady Grady

    I can’t believe I am saying this, but I agree with half of what are saying!!! I am not overly interested in white men preferring or not preferring me. I could care less. I think some white men are attractive and everything, but I am not interested in being with someone who is not interested in me! I am not going to beg or plead for someone to love me. You either like me or you don’t. Personally, I love myself. I am intelligent, compassionate, and supportive. I am a catch and I know it. My husband knows it too. I don’t need anyone’s permission to love myself. If you like it, fine. If you don’t, whatever. You said black women should concentrate on those who love and appreciate them. I agree. Black men are way more supportive of black women than other men, according to you. I agree with you on that. I said this earlier and alot of women wanted to blow my head off. I gave up.

    Like


  446. @Shady

    I think black women should only be with those who have a mind of their own. All this nonsense about black women having high testerone level, being too masculine, etc is just too much. Why in the world would want to be with someone who has such a low opinion of you!!! Marriage is no joke. Trust me. I know. I have been married 6 years!! Believe me when I say this. You don’t want to be with a jerk for the rest of your life!!!! You spend everyday with this person. It is important that you spend time with someone who is not brainwashed by the larger society. He must accept, trust and love you. Period. If you feel that the relationship is shaky from the beginning, then it will probably only get worse. So black women have to be very selective. Choose men who respect and love you. Most of them may be black, a few maybe white, but selective them based on how they treat you!

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  447. @Shady

    I want to say more but I am too exhausted right now. I will discuss later what I don’t agree with you about. Especially when it comes to the media. I definitely disagree with some of your comments on that subject!! I will continue with this subject later.

    Like


  448. Jorbia wrote
    You guys seem to be SINGULARLY focused on telling black women not to expect white men to validate their beauty? My focus is elsewhere.

    Uh no. I guess you didn’t read my personal example of the general futility of trying to tell (white) music magazines that they needed to have more black musicians on their cover. Or the hypothetical example about Scarlett Johannson.

    Let me state it again. Black men *generally* are not having a public snit about the fact that by and large white women prefer white men over them. Those black men who DO do that are usually mocked and told to get a life by both black men and black women. If Black men were doing that I would find it just as silly.

    I think that everyone should be with those they find attractive and who find them attractive. I also think people should recognize where their chances for success are highest.

    If I wrote comment after comment bemoaning the fact that most white women wouldn’t give a black man the time of day and that somehow this was “state sponsored racism” I rather expect that some of the people here would find it laughable. I find such comparisons lacking because they trivialize the real racism that my parents/grandparents/ancestors went through.

    Being forced to sit at the back of the bus? Racism.

    Not being hired or promoted? Racism.

    Not being able to vote? Racism.

    Being harassed, beaten or killed because you were in the wrong neighborhood? Racism.

    Being forced to take your hat off in the presence of a white man or step off the sidewalk when a white woman walks by? Racism.

    Not being able to try on a dress in a store and having to wait until all the other white customers were served? Racism.

    Being murdered because some white man said you were uppity or some white woman said you looked at her the wrong way? Racism.

    Being called Auntie/Uncle by white people who you had to call Mr./Mrs./Miss? Racism.

    In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.

    To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.

    So some black people can continue to complain about that sort of thing to no avail (trying to guilt trip people into finding you attractive doesn’t work) OR they can be with those people (black or white or mixed or East Asian or South Asian or Hispanic or whatever) that do find them attractive. Either way, life is short.

    You have power over your life and your preferences.
    You do not have power over the lives and preferences of millions of other people.

    Which one do you think you’re more likely to change?

    Jorbia wrote
    But is this actually true when it comes to american blacks and even with other groups of blacks? Many blacks have a marked preference for whites and all things Euro or more Euro-looking, even though they may say they prefer their own.

    And still in America most black people wind up dating, marrying, living with or reproducing with other black people. That’s a pretty strong indication of preference. If that’s not good enough for you, nothing will be.

    Like


  449. medium wrote

    @ shady grady
    “The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.”

    shady grady
    you said this

    the state have shape you and your decisions is not soley yours

    your a hypocrite because almost everyone here on this blog is going against the state. and don’t want to be manipulated no more. anyone with a brain is capable of doing this. so you must be working for the states.

    Uhh, medium you appear to be misattributing quotes to me. No biggie, easy mistake to make. I did not write this

    The state shapes, manipulates, and regulates each one of us. Don’t believe that your decisions are solely yours.

    Jorbia wrote it. As should be clear from subsequent comments I disagree with that statement profoundly.

    I don’t believe that the state has any control over who I find attractive. Obsidian and I have completely different ideas about what sort of women are attractive. If the state caused that, how did it manage to create such starkly opposing results?

    If you believe that the state does have control over who people find attractive then it is incumbent upon you to explain exactly how you want the state to intervene in people’s lives to rectify this wrong. Good luck with that.

    The paranoia and inability to even understand that people have different POV on things is unfortunate.

    Like


  450. @shady

    So whats all this I hear about young black girls feeling ugly and worthless because of their not white enough features like kinky hair, fuller lips, and wider noses?

    It seems like this “preference” by the white majority has been doing quite a number on the self esteem of black females.

    Many of your examples of racism could be classified as things that make a person feel like a second class citizen or as if they are worth less than whites. Don’t caucasian skewed beauty standards have the same effect?

    I don’t think personal preferences are the main issue, and I believe they can be shaped in part by societies preferences.

    Like


  451. Jeri wrote
    Choose men who respect and love you. Most of them may be black, a few maybe white, but selective them based on how they treat you!

    Yes. That’s it exactly!!!!! That is good advice for everyone. Life is very short.

    Jeri wrote
    I want to say more but I am too exhausted right now. I will discuss later what I don’t agree with you about. Especially when it comes to the media. I definitely disagree with some of your comments on that subject!! I will continue with this subject later.

    Cool. Points of disagreement can be places where we all learn. I will check for your comments later.

    Like


  452. @jas0nburns

    My examples all had had the use of force behind them and they were all in the public sphere. If a black man or black woman didn’t go along they ran an excellent chance of being harmed by agents of the state or by white citizens who knew agents of the state would look the other way or assist.

    That is entirely different than the private sphere and where there is no force or threat of force involved. Each citizen gets to decide for themselves who they are going to sleep with or marry and who they find attractive. The state can’t force people to find a certain look attractive.

    To the extent that black people find media depictions lacking, insulting or just missing completely the choices are to stop buying such media, build their own media or keep hanging around complaining. In the third option, every now and again someone will get lucky and break through but it will generally be a black woman that matches a white aesthetic in some key way. Even there it will always be a small number.

    Sports Illustrated and Marie Claire and Cosmo and Playboy and Maxim and GQ and Loaded and etc… will have their black woman on a cover or feature once every so often but that’s really not what their primary market considers most attractive.

    So I don’t think that Black women ought to waste their time looking for validation in media that’s not aimed at them. If they do so then of course they run a risk of thinking they’re not up to par, which isn’t true.

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  453. @ shady

    “all had had the use of force behind them and they were all in the public sphere.”

    So basically something has to meet that criteria in order for you to consider it racism.

    I would disagree. For example I consider white flight to the suburbs racism yet it doesn’t meet those criteria.

    I think that the abandonment of urban centers by whites was driven by racism and has taken a huge toll on America in general.

    http://www.helium.com/items/359978-white-flights-negative-impact-on-the-education-of-african-americans

    So basically in the 1950’s just as blacks were starting to make substantial gains in American society white people decided to get the f**k out of dodge and take all their tax money with them.

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  454. Generally it has to meet that criteria for me to think that the state should be able to intervene.

    Personal decisions on who to sleep with or marry or live next door to are not things that the state can do anything about in general. Such decisions are personal and private.

    The state can say public schools can’t discriminate, but it can’t stop whites from sending their kids to private schools. It can state that a corporation has to hire black people but it can’t make the white (or increasingly Asian) managers at that corporation give black people the inside unwritten rules that are in effect, act as mentors, invite black people to their non-work social gatherings or do any of the other small yet key actions which help people rise on the corporate ladder. The state can invalidate racial covenants in housing but it can’t prevent whites from generally moving away once the black presence in a neighborhood moves above a certain tipping point.

    All those things are beyond our ability to control. And on some things I look sideways at people who WOULD like to control.

    So the question is what to do next. I don’t pretend to have all the answers and wish some things were different. But they aren’t. This is the world we live in and need to thrive and succeed regardless of who doesn’t want to marry us or live next door to us. I just know that uncritically consuming media that’s not meant for you is just not helpful.

    If a white woman (say Gwynneth Paltrow) with very strong stereotypical Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Celtic features and what many American blacks would think of as a too skinny frame spent most of her time reading Essence, Ebony, Jet, King, Smooth, Vibe, etc or watching movies in which none of the leading ladies looked like her I can definitely see how that might cause some internal anomie. I would tell such a woman the same thing I tell anyone else-change the media that you’re consuming…

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  455. @ Shady

    When did state intervention become the focal point? I must have missed something in the discussion, certainly it isn’t central to the OP. If we’re just going to talk about state sanctioned racism Abagond might as well retire this blog cause racism is over and what ever racism is left we should just ignore it.

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  456. @ Shady Grady–

    In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.

    To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.

    I don’t know why you and Obsidian can’t seem to speak for your individual selves. I’ve noticed how you and he often include each other in your response. Do you feel you need for back-up or something when responding to me? 🙂

    Anyway, a black woman not getting a date with a white man seems to be your SINGULAR focus because you constantly bring that up. This topic is a BROAD topic. Why do you keep reducing it to either short men, red-headed men, and black women getting dates with white men?

    I’m not in a “snit” about anything. I’m expressing my views about the insidiousness of the complexion hierarchy.

    I thought this topic was a broad topic that was speaking to this phenomenon of elevating of Caucasian female looks over black female negroid looks and the flagrant RACISM in that. My position is that the current complexion hierarchy is very harmful to these black females in personal and other ways because it prevents them from having many opportunities that similar white women get. All people of good principles and morals should work against this because it is RACISM.

    For example, when a black woman doesn’t get a job in the public arena because her lips and behind are considered “too big, raunchy or NEGROID looking” yet Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Lopez’s lips and butt respectively are raved about as being the epitome of female beauty, this is racism, NOT preference. There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?

    I know that many whites who are reading this know, just like I know that there are often high profile jobs that black women do not get simply because their NEGROID features or natural hair are not the look that white employers want to put out front. These black women cannot sue because no white employer is dumb enough to tell a black woman that “we can’t hire you for that high-profile position because some of our staff or clients will be offended or frightened by your natural hair” or don’t want to look at the width of your nose or dark chocolate skin.

    This is a form of theft. The tax dollars of those black women and their families are used by the state to subsidize these corporations, the media and others who use this complexion hierarchy to discriminate against those black women for having NEGROID features and hair. This is state-sponsored racism.

    So why would you advise black women to be quiet about this or even try to suck it up? Instead, you black men should be out front making as much noise as you can about this complexion hierarchy. Now, I’m YOUR consultant. 🙂

    Like


  457. All I have to say is Peanut…..those are some really nice photos you posted. Except for the red headed white boys tho. I don’t care what society say. And they got it all twisted. White women aint got NOTHING on a sista that look like the ones Peanut posted. Black women’s bodies are a lot stronger looking then white women’s. And that aint a bad thing. Just ask The Kardashian sisters (kim & Khloe), Jennifer lopez, and some more I can’t think of at the moment.

    And I do agree. There are beautiful women in all races and there are some ugly women in all races. But I prefer mine just like my coffee, sweet, very hott, and BLACK. No cream.

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  458. @Jorbia

    You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!

    Like


  459. @Shady Grady

    What I wanted to say is that I do expect the media to cater to the interest of black women just like they cater to the interest of white women. I mean, why not? If you say you are not racist, then what is wrong with putting very beautiful African ( not just those who are mixed) women on television and portraying them in a non-stereotypical fashion!! The media seems to only want to cater to the interest of whites and that is racism!! When the media does this, it causes alot of problems for African American women. People automatically assume that all black women carry themselves the way the media portrays them or that all black women look like those on television. It is very common to see very attractive light skinned black women on tv but not very attractive darker skinned black women. If you see a darker skinned woman on TV, she is either overweight or ghetto acting.

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  460. @Shady Grady

    There are millions of beautiful darker skinned black women all over the world. Some are in Africa, Europe, South America, the Carribean etc. Many are intelligent, educated, and very feminine. But do you see these type of women on TV. No you don’t!!! And it is not because they don’t exist. There are thousands of beautiful darker skinned black women who are trying to make a breakthrough in acting or modeling. But they can’t catch a break because those who control the media are determined to reject them in their RACIST attempt to portray black women in a negative way only. If these women are not ghetto acting or not overweight, whites don’t want to see them!!! Now are you saying that is not racism!!!! To refuse to employ all these beautiful and talented women!!! I personally think that black people should boycott certain movies and TV programs until those who control the media changes their focus!!

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  461. @Shady Grady

    You said that there is little one can do about some forms of racism because, according to you, some forms can not be controlled by the state or government but I think boycotting or refusing to spend your money on certain projects is enough in itself. When that stupid movie “Precious” came out, every black person all over the world should have refused to spend money seeing that movie!!!! Hollywood would have lost money and Hollywood would be careful the next time it wanted to make a movie concerning black people. Money is power. It can have more power than the government or state!!

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  462. Jeri,
    One of the most important Black Women to come down the pike in more than a quarter of a century, is Oprah Winfrey. One of the most high profile Black Women in gov’t ever, is Coldoleeza Rice. A Black Woman in Mae Jemison has gone to space and back. Everyone knows who these Black Women are, and make no mistake about it, they are most assuredly Black.

    See, this is what I mean; it seems that there is a cadre of Sistas who seem to revel in majoring in the minors. Give it a rest, already, there are bigger fish for the Sistahood to fry…

    O.

    Like


  463. @Obsidian

    I don’t agree with you!!! Issues concerning the media is very important to most black women!! If you are not interested, then that is how YOU feel! It doesn’t mean I have to go along with it!! Are you an African American male? Well, I am sure you have concerns that have to do with African American men. I wouldn’t tell you to “give it up” if a very important issue dealing with African American men was of concern to you!!! Issues such as “driving while black” or “black men not being employed like white men”!!!I would respect your opinion and probably support your right to express yourself. You seem to have a problem with black women and their “opinions”. I guess that is something you have to deal with. It is not my problem.

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  464. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren.

    Where is it written that because somebody likes something on X that they have to like it on Y?

    Should people who only drink Coke be lectured for not spending their money on Pepsi, since they are both basically carbonated water, sugar, acid and caramel color? And if they would rather have a Sprite is that a form of “color bias”.

    Like


  465. @Truth B Told

    Wow, it has been a long time since I have heard from you! Still the same, I see. Well, it is obvious that when the media goes out of their way to portray black women in a negative fashion, that it is not some sort of coincedence. And I am going to say it again. If the media is going out of its way to not hire all the thousands of darker skin women who are trying to be actors or models, then that is racism. Period. I don’t know how else to put it.

    You know what is amazing about black men such as you. You want black women to support issues that concern black men but you have a problem with black women expressing their opinion concerning their own issues. I said it earlier. Men like you have a serious maturity problem. If it doesn’t affect you, they you are not concerned. Real selfish in my opinion but that is typical of some men like you.

    Like


  466. jorbia says,
    -Anyway, a black woman not getting a date with a white -man seems to be your SINGULAR focus because you constantly bring that up. This topic is a BROAD topic. Why do you keep reducing it to either short men, red-headed men, and black women getting dates with white men?
    -I’m not in a “snit” about anything. I’m expressing my views about the insidiousness of the complexion hierarchy.
    -I thought this topic was a broad topic that was speaking to this phenomenon of elevating of Caucasian female looks over black female negroid looks and the flagrant RACISM in that. My position is that the current complexion hierarchy is very harmful to these black females in personal and other ways because it prevents them from having many opportunities that similar white women get. All people of good principles and morals should work against this because it is RACISM.
    -For example, when a black woman doesn’t get a job in the public arena because her lips and behind are considered “too big, raunchy or NEGROID looking” yet Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Lopez’s lips and butt respectively are raved about as being the epitome of female beauty, this is racism, NOT preference. There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?
    -I know that many whites who are reading this know, just like I know that there are often high profile jobs that black women do not get simply because their NEGROID features or natural hair are not the look that white employers want to put out front. These black women cannot sue because no white employer is dumb enough to tell a black woman that “we can’t hire you for that high-profile position because some of our staff or clients will be offended or frightened by your natural hair” or don’t want to look at the width of your nose or dark chocolate skin.
    -This is a form of theft. The tax dollars of those black women and their families are used by the state to subsidize these corporations, the media and others who use this complexion hierarchy to discriminate against those black women for having NEGROID features and hair. This is state-sponsored racism

    Jeri says,
    -@Jorbia
    You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!
    -@Shady Grady
    What I wanted to say is that I do expect the media to cater to the interest of black women just like they cater to the interest of white women. I mean, why not? If you say you are not racist, then what is wrong with putting very beautiful African ( not just those who are mixed) women on television and portraying them in a non-stereotypical fashion!! The media seems to only want to cater to the interest of whites and that is racism!! When the media does this, it causes alot of problems for African American women. People automatically assume that all black women carry themselves the way the media portrays them or that all black women look like those on television. It is very common to see very attractive light skinned black women on tv but not very attractive darker skinned black women. If you see a darker skinned woman on TV, she is either overweight or ghetto acting.
    -@Shady Grady
    There are millions of beautiful darker skinned black women all over the world. Some are in Africa, Europe, South America, the Carribean etc. Many are intelligent, educated, and very feminine. But do you see these type of women on TV. No you don’t!!! And it is not because they don’t exist. There are thousands of beautiful darker skinned black women who are trying to make a breakthrough in acting or modeling. But they can’t catch a break because those who control the media are determined to reject them in their RACIST attempt to portray black women in a negative way only. If these women are not ghetto acting or not overweight, whites don’t want to see them!!! Now are you saying that is not racism!!!! To refuse to employ all these beautiful and talented women!!! I personally think that black people should boycott certain movies and TV programs until those who control the media changes their focus!!
    -@Shady Grady
    You said that there is little one can do about some forms of racism because, according to you, some forms can not be controlled by the state or government but I think boycotting or refusing to spend your money on certain projects is enough in itself. When that stupid movie “Precious” came out, every black person all over the world should have refused to spend money seeing that movie!!!! Hollywood would have lost money and Hollywood would be careful the next time it wanted to make a movie concerning black people. Money is power. It can have more power than the government or state!!

    laromana says,
    jorbia and Jeri, thanks for your EXCELLENT responses to the DERAILERS who CONTINUE to MISREPRESENT/DISMISS the MAIN POINTS of this post.

    To ANYONE who is willing to take an HONEST look at the way ANTI-BW RACISM is used in American culture/media to ATTACK the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMINNITY of BW and PROMOTE a NEGATIVE/FALSE IMAGE of BW, there is NO DOUBT that this is a REAL PROBLEM that has/continues to HURT BW AT EVERY LEVEL of OUR LIVES.

    BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS (INCLUDING ALL BM) NEED to take ANTI-BW RACISM in America SERIOUSLY and ALWAYS CONFRONT/CONDEMN IT so that it can be DESTROYED ONCE and FOR ALL.

    The FACT is that THERE IS/HAS NEVER BEEN ANYTHING WRONG with BW.
    WHAT had been WRONG is the ANTI-BW RACISM that has ALWAYS BEEN PRACTICED AGAINST BW in America.

    NOTE: Jennifer Lopez is a LIGHT SKINNED (WHITER LOOKING) AFROLATINA (easier to see this in OLDER PICS of her) and I think it’s ANOTHER EXAMPLE of ANTI-BW RACISM that her “NON-BLACK” look is praised while DARK SKINNED AFROLATINAS/BW who have the SAME features as her are IGNORED .

    Like


  467. @Jeri

    The men in this thread have repeatedly asked for answers and have not gotten any concrete ones. So I will ask again:

    What do you propose? It is more simple and direct to oppose acts of commission (employment discrimination, driving while black, etc) because there are remedies that can be enacted (lawsuits, suspensions, etc). How do you oppose acts of omission (choosing one aesthetic over another)?

    What do you propose that is practical (can actually work in the real world) and does not violate anyone’s personal freedom?

    Immaturity is complaining without offering a solution. So there is no need for me to call you immature, I’ll just wait for your proposed solutions.

    Like


  468. Jorbia wrote
    @ Shady Grady–
    In 2010, being declined for a date by a white person? Preference.
    To my point , with which you should agree, in the last example there is NOTHING the state can do to change that. There is no law, no Title IX like regulation, no tort available to rectify that. That’s what I saying and what I think Obsidian is saying as well.
    I don’t know why you and Obsidian can’t seem to speak for your individual selves. I’ve noticed how you and he often include each other in your response. Do you feel you need for back-up or something when responding to me?

    Keep dreaming. Jorbia in a response to me that you wrote YOU included Obsidian within-claiming that both of us weren’t supporting women in this state sponsored racism against Black women. I looked through my responses and the only times I mentioned Obsidian was to defend him against a particularly ridiculous ad hominem attack that he just preferred white women AND in response to your aforementioned comment. So that’s two times out of roughly twenty comments. So if you are going to claim that Obsidian and I have the same wrong POV then don’t be surprised when I respond for myself and hazard a guess as to what Obsidian’s point is. Obsidian and I have completely different POV on a myriad of issues.

    Jorbia wrote
    There are many black women who are naturally built like Sophia Loren and with lips and cheekbones just like hers, but they get the silent treatment. These SAME lips and behind on a white woman are view as a positive, yet on a black female, these are seen as negative. How can anyone defend this and call it anything other than racism?

    In her day Sophia Loren was one of the most beautiful women on the planet. She’s still striking even at 76. By definition, there aren’t very many women of any race that have lips and cheekbones just like hers. However arguing that Loren’s looks are typical of black women would ignore several other Italian and especially Southern Italian women that are indeed somewhat similar in phenotype to Loren and certainly much closer than most Black women. If we imply that the reason why Loren got attention was her (allegedly) “blackish” looks we are really no different as I mentioned than the white person who says that Patton, Berry or Keys get attention for their Caucasoid ancestry and THAT’s what explains their beauty.

    Again, black men do not view black women as secondary wives/sex symbols/girlfriends/etc; white men do. White men (in the aggregate) prefer white women. White women prefer to model themselves after white women. There are many many exceptions to this but that’s the rule. Humans are tribalistic. Why is this so problematic for you?

    Like


  469. @Truth B Told

    I am not going to lie to you. I don’t know all the answers concerning how to solve the problem. I mentioned before that boycotting is one of the solutions. Not spending your money on racist movies is another. Supporting artist and directors that portray black people in a non-stereotypical fashion is another. I did mention solutions. You didn’t read what I said earlier?

    I just hope and pray that more black people will take what is going on in the media ( hip hop, sapphire stereotypes) more seriously. It is extremely important in how it affects our lives. And it doesn’t just hurt black women! It also affects how black men are perceived as well. Many black men are perceived as gansta’s, pimps, playas etc. That can’t be good for their image neither. So this should not just be an concern for black women but black men as well. We have to unite to solve our problems. Not attack one another!

    Like


  470. @Laromana

    Thanks for your support. I totally agree with you in that black people must do something against anti-Bw propaganda. It affects all black people in different ways and we must take it seriously!!!

    Like


  471. Jeri wrote
    @Jorbia
    You made an excellent point!!!Shady keeps bringing this whole “black women are upset about white men not wanting them” topic. I thought this topic was about much more than that. He is assuming that black women are all having a fit because some white men don’t want them but that is not the point of the topic. Like you mentioned earlier, white people clearly admire black women’s bronze color, lips and body shape but will only admit to this preference when it involves someone who is not black!!! Like Jeniffer Lopez or Sophia Loren. Excellent point!!!! When I saw that picture of Sophia Loren that Abagond posted, the first thought that I had was that many black women have a similar shape!!! Like you mentioned earlier, to withhold your praise for the same characteristics in an actual black woman, is racism!!!

    I think you are stretching things just a bit. There are plenty of women that have a more generous body shape, natural color or features that you assume are non-Caucasian but who are actually Caucasian.

    When I first saw this actress in “Casino Royale” I ASS-umed that she must have been Black-White biracial, South Asian, Lebanese, Turkish or other Middle Eastern, Afro-Arab or other “non-white”. As it turns out she’s Italian –Sardinian to be exact- and by American (and Italian) standards anyway, white.

    To recognize her beauty doesn’t necessarily mean that one wouldn’t find the same features attractive in a “Black” woman. I certainly would. However were this woman “Black” she would be of course light skinned and with an aquiline nose, that would also set some people off. =)

    The EXACT same argument can be made and has been made that any good looking black woman (Lena Horne/Halle Berry/Dorothy Dandridge/Alicia Keys/Beyonce) is only liked by black men because they can’t afford/aren’t allowed/are prevented from seeking out similar (and more common) features in white women and thus overpraising black women with “white” features is a form of racism.

    Again though it was Black men, not white men, that went absolutely gaga over Serena Williams. Generally it is Black men that praise Jill Scott or Angie Stone or Angela Bassett or several other Black women who possess a decidedly non-Anglo phenotype. So I don’t really understand why that’s not enough for some Black women. Enjoy the media and men that celebrate you, ignore those that don’t. I don’t know any other solution than that.

    Like


  472. I agree (as I’ve said many times) that not using media that doesn’t reflect you is the best way to make changes.

    Like


  473. @Jeri

    You did mention some solutions (boycotting bad media). That is a good way to deal with acts of commission (negative potrayal of Blacks).

    Dealing with acts of omission is the trickier part and the part that I think is driving much of this debate.

    Like


  474. @Shady Grady

    Look, you keep bringing up this topic about white men and their preferences. Like I said earlier, that is not the issue!! For me, the issue is that white producers and directors insist on portraying darker skinned black women in a negative (often stereotypical) maner. Going out of its way to promote white beauty standards and negative anti-bw stereotypes. It is racism and I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money. It is a business. Black people often overlook what is going on by having the same attitude that you have. The “what can you do about it” attitude. Black people have power. It is just about how we focus that power. It is that simple.

    Like


  475. @Truth B Told

    I think that how we spend our money can deal with acts of omission also. If a director does a movie with postive characters and makes millions as a result then that would encourage Hollywood to do more movies that are similar. If you have other solutions, then you should express what they are, not just attack those who offer solutions you don’t like or solutions you don’t think will work. Come up with your answers!

    Like


  476. Ah. Angela Basset. The one and only for me. ´Sigh´

    Like


  477. @ shady grady it look like you said that quote but if jorbia said i don’t know what he meant .if so i apologize

    i understand what your saying to a point when you said find someone that love you. true. but because of the negativity that’s thrown out there by society . only a small percentage of black women will experience this. the darker you are is the harder it is. it a mindset against black women.i see it everyday beautiful black women, inside and out, with their head on their shoulder,hard working etc. struggle emotionally because somebody hurt their feelings about them being too dark or undesirable and i’m like are you kidding your beautiful. some resort in to mating with someone lighter, so their kids won’t suffer like they did.

    we are good enough to screw but not good enough to be seen in public on your arm or represent you. society set it that way and a lot of men do succumb to this sort of thinking. where are you going with that nappy headed gal. ghetto booty etc. and a lot of men cannot take that humiliation. its easier to accommodate a women that more physically acceptable. lighter, whiter skin and flowing hair. this is what they use to belittle black women distinct beauty. black in America are taught not to love themselves. through the media,porno,dolls,t.v. racism etc.

    how many time have you seen black men that have risen to power or money their women get lighter and lighter. some of them all of a sudden have a preference. they found a new society and nappy headed gal cannot fit on that pedestal. obama is one black man that i see had the balls that took his chocolate women all the way to the white house. you know how many people have a problem they don’t look at michelle obama as a good women, but she is not pretty, she look angry,i don’t picture him with her. they are so use to seeing black men with women of other race. it seemed unnormal for him to have a black women with so much money and power.

    barbara bush ain’t cute and hilliary ain’t cute . nancy ain’t cute. an none of their face seem inviting to me. and taye diggs wife is ugly. and this isn’t broadcast .that’s the thing with white society they are unaccepting to anybody that’s not like them, walk like them and chat like them, look like them, which is the issue of this post. even white people suffer under this kinda of society. the white culture honestly believe that they are god and are of some perfection. i don’t have a problem with a white individual, but i do have a problem with the white culture. that shape the minds of both black and white.

    society got a lot of you twisted, love know no color but preference does. its too many choices for every damn body to have the same preference. don’t you think .( preference) black women not included that’s what preference mean to me.

    America the great is a racist its build off of racism. and still feed off of racism. mainly between black and white. no other race of people in America have been oppressed like black people,( next in line the Mexicans). they destroyed the black family and destroyed how black view themselves. the blacks that’s raised in predominately white society get way more brainwash than those who are closer to there roots. (look at tiger woods), they hate themselves. and have to play the role oh i’m not like other blacks. act all passive. always striving to be accepted. my point is a lot of people look at slavery as if its done and gone and it doesn’t have its effects.

    this is 400 years and then, Jim Crow, segregation,etc. yea today we have freedom and are responsible for our own lives. but some people really want to blow it off as if it was nothing, its in the past. and the blacks who understand, knows for a fact that this is the cause of a lot of the black community dysfunction, a lot of trials, trauma,legacy, tribulation etc. but don’t act as if it doesn’t have an effect. plus there is still racism. and this topic falls right on the list, happening today in America.

    you have black, Asian, Hispanics, etc Americans. that work pay their taxes. we are Americans when it comes to war. but something else when it comes to being civil. stop brainwashing our children with all this white beauty. mix it up. show us some respect in how you sell us to the media.how you portray us. we are women not baboons. and acknowledge the fact that you have destroyed and is destroying our people culture and our lives. there have always been black people trying to rebuild the black community. so why stop now. black women is not society ugly women. and we ain’t going to stop here. its time for a change. we want our children, family and men back. and other men are welcome if they going to treat us right and respect us. why settle? to be a second class citizen.

    i’m doing my part

    excuse my spelling

    Like


  478. Education, education, education. Hollywood is BS! It just mimics status quo.

    You should try to affect the people in responsible of educating american youth. After parents, school teachers are the most influential in one’s life. So, equal perception of all nationalities, cultures and “races” should be stressed upon in every school on this planet.

    Yeah, I know. “As if”.

    Like


  479. And yes, I know, I’m full of egalitarian bull***t. And proud of it.

    Like


  480. @Medium

    Excellents points. I agree with everything you just said. I wish more people are willing to listen to the outrage and hurt that black women suffer everyday. And you are right, there are many beautiful, intelligent darker black women who suffer emotionally as a result of racism. Many black women really believe there is something wrong themselves . And yes, often our men don’t support us. Sometimes they do and I applaud those black men and men in general who sincerely support us. But many of us feel alone in this world.

    Medium, you spoke from the heart and I applaud you for that. Thankyou.

    Like


  481. Jeri wrote
    I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money. It is a business. Black people often overlook what is going on by having the same attitude that you have. The “what can you do about it” attitude. Black people have power. It is just about how we focus that power. It is that simple

    Jeri that is a distillation of all I’ve been saying throughout this discussion. In literally every post I’ve written I’ve said that the only solution which I see as valid and satisfactory is for Black people to stop consuming media that they don’t like. Over and over and over again I’ve written that. So if we agree on that, salut!

    The point where I think we may not agree is that I’m not convinced that such a boycott would necessarily bring about huge change. But it might. I don’t know. Cosmopolitan or similar magazines are not all that interested in the black dollar. Ebony and Essence on the other hand are..

    Like


  482. @ shady grady

    how much time have you seen this scenario
    look at television. it would be a caste of a bunch of white individuals. one black, maybe two. no hispanic, no asian ,no indian,etc. your trying to tell me that these other groups don’t go to acting school. but they sure do find alot of them to play extras. racist country.

    Like


  483. @ hannu

    you have a good point

    @ jeri
    thank you

    those who feels it knows it, babe

    Like


  484. @ hannu

    hannu you have me laughing about angela bassett, you better head to hollywood. you might have a chance

    Like


  485. @medium:

    That’s one terrific post!

    Like


  486. @Shady Grady —

    In her day Sophia Loren was one of the most beautiful women on the planet.

    My point in comparing her to black women was to say that there are many black women in the world who have the Sophia type measurements (big breast, tiny waist, large behind) and some of those women are just as beautiful facially or even moreso BUT they never get to the big screen or to be widely seen period due to the complexion hierarchy. So no one will ever know about them. Also, there are plenty of women of all races who could be made to look really gorgeous by the time Hollywood makeup artists finish with them. For example, Alicia Keys is said to have bad skin, but how many of us have seen her acne pock marks?

    @ Jeri —

    It is racism and I do believe that if black people stop supporting these people by not spending their money, then some of this racism would end. Hollywood wants to make money.

    Well, don’t hold your breath! A BIG part of this problem is that so many black people are avid supporters of the current complexion hierarchy TOO. I think that only a tiny number of black people, especially the men, would be willing to withhold their dollars. They feel they are entitled to their preference as is being argued in this thread.

    Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test. Every black man reading this could actually start doing that now. 🙂 Other black men would emulate those guys. If this went on for a few years, this would also send a strong message to Hollywood about ALL the types of black women that black men find beautiful. I’ve noticed that in the re-runs on TV, there were a lot of darker bw on TV and even in the movies years ago.

    If somebody here has a billion dollars, would you please pay a large number of black men in america to start dating only those black women who can’t pass the paper bag test? 🙂

    Like


  487. @medium

    You wouldn’t happen to have Angela’s mobile number? woot 😀

    Like


  488. “Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test.”

    I guess everybody has their own experiences and their own reality to inhabit. But, in my world, most guys are lucky enough to find a beautiful woman of ANY complexion, and are quite happy when they find one who will go out with them. I’ve never known any of my friends to say, “Wow, she’s too dark!” In fact, I’ve known, and to this day know, several very dark women who have men falling all over them all the time. One of my friends can’t even buy her own coffee at Starbucks without men (of several different races) asking to buy her coffee. I wouldn’t have thought it possible if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.

    I get the Social hierarchy… the” blondes have more fun” angle and all but on a street level, it doesn’t seem to work like that in field of observation.

    Like


  489. I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me. And I also like Pink and Fergie. I love strong women.

    Like


  490. I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me.

    Funny, I’ve known two Black female friends who’ve vacationed in Scandinavian countries, and both were SHOCKED to have been approached by so many Scandinavian men. One was telling me it felt like “Bizarro World,” where everything is backwards. She said it’s the only time she felt like she knew how blue-eyed blonde women felt in walking around in the U.S.

    Like


  491. jorbia says,
    Since men determine which woman is beautiful, I think that if black men were serious about demolishing the complexion hierarchy among blacks, all it would take is for the majority of the most prominent, influential, and richest black men in america to start dating only women who can’t pass the paper bag test. Every black man reading this could actually start doing that now. Other black men would emulate those guys. If this went on for a few years, this would also send a strong message to Hollywood about ALL the types of black women that black men find beautiful. I’ve noticed that in the re-runs on TV, there were a lot of darker bw on TV and even in the movies years ago.

    If somebody here has a billion dollars, would you please pay a large number of black men in america to start dating only those black women who can’t pass the paper bag test?

    laromana says,
    jorbia, thanks for this EXCELLENT, INSIGHTFUL comment.
    The FACT that MOST ANTI-BW BM in America CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM is the MAIN REASON BW are VIEWED in a POSITIVE/RESPECTFUL way.

    Today MOST ANTI-BW BM in America PUBLICLY DEMEAN, DEGRADE, and DISRESPECT BW and this REINFORCES ANTI-BW RACISM in the CULTURE/MEDIA.

    On the web (INCLUDING this post) MANY ANTI-BW BM MAKE EXCUSES for ANTI-BW RACISM and CONDONE/MINIMIZE/RATIONALIZE it INSTEAD of DOING their BEST TO CONFRONT/CONDEMN/DESTROY IT.

    It’s OBVIOUS that ANTI-BW BM COULD CARE LESS ABOUT BW or HOW BW are VIEWED/TREATED in Amercan SOCIETY/MEDIA.

    NON-BW in America DON’T have to DEAL with their SAME RACE men PUBLICLY HUMILIATING THEM/TRASHING their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY LIKE BW DO.

    Like


  492. @ King —

    But, in my world, most guys are lucky enough to find a beautiful woman of ANY complexion, and are quite happy when they find one who will go out with them. I’ve never known any of my friends to say, “Wow, she’s too dark!” In fact, I’ve known, and to this day know, several very dark women who have men falling all over them all the time.

    I’m sure you’ve heard that expression: “She’s pretty for a dark woman,” or “She’s dark BUT she’s pretty. That means that it’s accepted among black people and others that it’s unusual for a dark woman to be pretty.

    I think the point of this topic is that most men think that the majority of white women are above average or hotties. I think it was Hannu who said that Hollywood just accepts that status quo.

    In other words, a dark complected woman has to really be very pretty to be pretty, but a white woman can just be ordinary looking or even less than ordinary looking (like Sara Jessica Parker) and be presented as gorgeous. And no one questions it. That’s the complexion hierarchy and black men rubber stamp that hierarchy every day TOO.

    @Hannu–

    I just don’t sign to this Anglo-phenotype whatnot. Most of the black women presented in media, despite superficial categories are hotties to me. And I also like Pink and Fergie. I love strong women.

    It’s nice to meet you. 🙂 It’s great to encounter men who can think for themselves.

    Like


  493. King says,
    Funny, I’ve known two Black female friends who’ve vacationed in Scandinavian countries, and both were SHOCKED to have been approached by so many Scandinavian men. One was telling me it felt like “Bizarro World,” where everything is backwards. She said it’s the only time she felt like she knew how blue-eyed blonde women felt in walking around in the U.S.

    laromana says,
    King, I’ve heard other BW who have visited Europe say the same things as your friend who vacationed in Scandinavia.

    It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.

    It CRAZY that I/MOST BW WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE U.S. to EXPERIENCE BEING TREATED WITH LOVE/RESPECT (LIKE NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN).

    Like


  494. @Laromana —

    It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.

    It CRAZY that I/MOST BW WILL HAVE TO LEAVE THE U.S. to EXPERIENCE BEING TREATED WITH LOVE/RESPECT (LIKE NORMAL HUMAN WOMEN).

    Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!

    Like


  495. “Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!”

    Yep, I’m in Scandinavia 🙂 Born and raised here and i am a visible Black woman, and i have been treated like a normal woman all my life lol I am actually afraid to visit America, i’m not sure i would be ready to face any racism. I’ve heard so many stories…I don’t understand why America treat Black women like aliens, you would think after all this time that Black people have been in America, they wouldn’t be treated like second class citizens.
    Here, a woman is a woman, you are an individual. I can’t speak for all nordic european countries, but the country i am in is like that. I don’t ever worry about my skin color being a problem. I go to places where i might be the only Black person, but it doesn’t bother me, i don’t think about it and i don’t get treated differently.
    I get approached by all kinds of men, but mostly white men because there are more of them here.

    I would describe it as being raceless, or colorless because it has no importance here, at least that has been my experience all my life.
    When i look at America and how it seem they treat Black women, i feel really sad. America is supposed to be the melting pot, which it is, but then why is everyone so separate? Why the hyphen for everyone except White American people? It’s very disturbing.

    To sum it all up. Here, if you are a beautiful woman, you are simply a beautiful woman. My honest advice for Black American women would be to travel to Europe. If you are not appreciated in America you are not obligated to stay where you are mistreated in the media and daily life.
    If your skin color and womanhood is used to discriminate and belittle you then that is enough to pack your bags.
    Life is too short to stay where you are not welcome.

    It seems Black women in America are stereotyped and bashed by everyone who wants an easy target (racism + sexism) and surprisingly even from Black men.
    I feel awful for little Black girls who have to grow up around that poison, and i feel lucky to have never gone through that.

    /”Anon”

    Like


  496. Laromana wrote: “It seems that once BW LEAVE AMERICA and go to EUROPE we SUDDENLY BECOME REAL, VISIBLE, NORMAL WOMEN.”

    Yes, indeed.

    When I was 17 I went on a trip to the cities of Stockholm, Copenhagen, Jerusalem, Rome and Paris. I had admirers in each city we visited, and even went on two dinner dates whilst in Jerusalem (we were in that one city the longest).

    Not only were the men in these cities attentive (and not just the locals; I had a GORGEOUS admirer from Baghdad who I met in my last few hours before departing Copenhagen) but we were generally treated like royalty everywhere we went.

    Like


  497. @ leigh

    thank you

    @ hannu

    i want her number for my self so she can pay for my plane ticket to go to scandinavia, i’ll take lamorna and jeri with me , get out of this mess

    and abandon the tribe

    just jokes

    Like


  498. @ hannu

    they sold out marcus garvey for rice

    i sell them out for a plane ticket to scandinavia

    just jokes i have to laugh too

    Like


  499. I remember a few months ago I saw a picture of Sophia Loren and her family, and I remember thinking this: Who is this mixed woman? I’ve never seen her before. I read the fine print and realized it was Sophia Loren and her son’s family. Even before I read years ago where she admitted that her grandfather was black, I thought there was something special about her beauty, not that it was better. To me, she is the most beautiful white woman in hollywood history. I don’t abide by the one drop rule. To me she is white.

    I work in the film industry and I write, produce and act in my own films. I am currently working on my second film as a writer and producer and will soon start casting for the third film. I’ve held castings and I have to say that even though I see all races of women as “equally beautiful” meaning that no one race is more beautiful than the other, I will say that when comparing headshots of white women with other women of color, I find myself gazing at the women of color longer or first. I think the beauty of women of color is just “standout”. That is not a slight against white women because white women can hold their own but to me women of color have that something extra.

    The only reason the media forces that nonsense down our throats about white women being the most beautiful is because that’s the only way to get the masses to believe, not that many do anyway.

    No offense to “overweight black women” but I am sick of the mammy image of black women that is being promoted. Yes, their stories need to be told to and yes they should be represented but there are other types of black women that are not being presented. My goal is to promote positive non stereotypical images of black women in my films. I will mostly put attractive, classy, slender/thin/non-overweight black women in my films. That may sound harsh, but black women have to be in control of our image. We can’t have others choosing our representation for us. Of course, they will choose the type of woman that is no threat to the system.

    Like


  500. medium says,
    @ hannu

    i want her number for my self so she can pay for my plane ticket to go to scandinavia, i’ll take lamorna and jeri with me , get out of this messand abandon the tribe just jokes

    laromana says
    medium, I would love to join you and jeri on a trip to Scandinavia (always wanted to visit that part of the world).

    jorbia says,
    Isn’t that wonderful! If nothing else, this topic has brought this out. There are some places where black women are regarded as “real, visible, normal” women and pursued as such. Just imagine that!

    laromana says,
    jorbia, it is wonderful that there are OTHER places where BW are treated like the BEAUTIFUL, LOVING, INTELLIGENT, WONDERFUL REAL WOMEN THAT WE ACTUALLY ARE!

    Anon,
    Thanks for confirming that there are OTHER COUNTRIES where BW are NOT treated INVISIBLE ALIENS but BEAUTIFUL, NORMAL WOMEN.

    Like


  501. Shan
    I remember a few months ago I saw a picture of Sophia Loren and her family, and I remember thinking this: Who is this mixed woman? I’ve never seen her before. I read the fine print and realized it was Sophia Loren and her son’s family. Even before I read years ago where she admitted that her grandfather was black, I thought there was something special about her beauty, not that it was better. To me, she is the most beautiful white woman in hollywood history. I don’t abide by the one drop rule. To me she is white.

    No offense to “overweight black women” but I am sick of the mammy image of black women that is being promoted. Yes, their stories need to be told to and yes they should be represented but there are other types of black women that are not being presented. My goal is to promote positive non stereotypical images of black women in my films. I will mostly put attractive, classy, slender/thin/non-overweight black women in my films. That may sound harsh, but black women have to be in control of our image. We can’t have others choosing our representation for us. Of course, they will choose the type of woman that is no threat to the system.

    laromana says,

    Thanks for mentioning that you, too, had read about Sophia’s Black grandfather. I couldn’t remember where I had read it and I couldn’t find ANYTHING online to corroborate this interesting fact about her ancestry.

    Thanks, too, for choosing to portray BW in a POSITIVE way on film.
    For so long I’ve suggested that BW/PRO-BW SUPPORTERS in the movie industry create films that portray BW in a POSITIVE, NON-STEREOTYPICAL way.
    I’m THRILLED to hear that it is your goal to IMPROVE the IMAGE of BW in film and help CHANGE the NEGATIVE images that have been PROMOTED, via ANTI-BW RACISM/RACISTS, in American culture/media.
    I wish you the BEST in this ADMIRABLE endeavor!

    Like


  502. I think the following documentary film successfully summarizes much of the questions and issues raised in this thread.

    In my view its not enough to ignore the effects of such harmful artificially created beauty standards.

    The “internalised racism” amongst Black men and women that so many of these comments reflect is just one of those harmful effects.

    They have to be successfully addressed before any attempts can be made to “MOVE ON” Otherwise you are doomed to perpetuate their continuance.

    This is a well researched documentary that exposes the “White” Media’s long-term agenda to standardize Caucasian people as the “social norm” for general society.

    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-modern-racist-paradigm/

    Like


  503. Kwamla,
    Thanks for being a PRO-BW BM who cares enough about BW to encourage others to STOP IGNORING ANTI-BW RACISM (and it’s MANY NEGATIVE EFFECTS on BOTH BW AND BM) and work hard to CONFRONT/CONDEMN/DESTROY IT.

    Like


  504. Your welcome Laromana!!

    Like


  505. @ kwamla

    i agree with what you said absoulutely.

    Like


  506. Thank you Laromana.

    Like


  507. Funny, I’ve known two Black female friends who’ve vacationed in Scandinavian countries, and both were SHOCKED to have been approached by so many Scandinavian men. One was telling me it felt like “Bizarro World,” where everything is backwards. She said it’s the only time she felt like she knew how blue-eyed blonde women felt in walking around in the U.S.

    Names and addresses, please. Truth to be told, I’ve heard a lot of racist slurs from finnish men, but not very many from my closest friends. Most of them just like hot women, and a lot of them think that black women are especially hot. I do.

    Like


  508. Argh. Seems that I don’t know how to use the “quote”-function. Damn it!

    Like


  509. It’s nice to meet you. It’s great to encounter men who can think for themselves.

    Well thank you! Believe me, scandinavian women in general definitely aren’t “way above average looking hotties”. I wish! But of course it might seem like an oasis to foreign guys when they go to a nightclub. And by the way, most of them are fake blonds anyway. Nothing against blondes, but they are not as fair as nature made them.

    Like


  510. @medium

    Come one, come all! Hey, i have a single friend who’s 6´1″ like me, but he’s got blond hair and blue eyes and lotsa muscles. And an ex-model, might I add… 😉

    Lol, this is getting interesting…

    Like


  511. You’re welcome, Shan.

    Like


  512. I forgot to mention in my last post that Hal Williams who played Lester in 227 once mentioned in an interview that producers/directors were reluctant to cast “beautiful black actresses” alongside white actresses in fear that the black actress would steal the show. That could have a lot to do as to why hollywood has no problem promoting the “black mammy”. It’s a non threatening image.

    I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other. Each race has a feature that all other races admire or like anyway. I think hollywood would be more interesting if this divide didn’t exist. I actually believe that the actors would be more talented or either take their craft more seriously if they knew that their success would be solely based on their talent.

    Like


  513. Shan says,
    I forgot to mention in my last post that Hal Williams who played Lester in 227 once mentioned in an interview that producers/directors were reluctant to cast “beautiful black actresses” alongside white actresses in fear that the black actress would steal the show. That could have a lot to do as to why hollywood has no problem promoting the “black mammy”. It’s a non threatening image.

    I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other. Each race has a feature that all other races admire or like anyway. I think hollywood would be more interesting if this divide didn’t exist. I actually believe that the actors would be more talented or either take their craft more seriously if they knew that their success would be solely based on their talent.

    laromana says,
    Shan, my sister who has friends in the industry, confirmed that what you’re saying about Hollywood’s ANTI-BW attitude is correct. It’s great to see that you are ACTIVELY confronting this problem.

    It’s time this WARPED/RACIST/ANTI-BW mindset was challenged so that actors can be judged on their TALENT and not their RACE.

    Like


  514. @Kwamla —

    artificially created beauty standards . . . have to be successfully addressed before any attempts can be made to “MOVE ON” Otherwise you are doomed to perpetuate their continuance.

    YES! I SO appreciate your insight!

    @Shan–

    I personally don’t think one race is better looking than the other.

    Actual beauty is totally subjective, despite all of the attempts at fake proof and scientific analysis. What most people consider to be beautiful in a woman has simply been spoon-fed to them by the state. I think very few men have the courage to take the state’s lens off and see ALL the beauty. Or maybe the state lens has blinded them permanently to all the beauty.

    I actually respect the courage of men who will simply say I prefer white women or Euro looks simply because I prefer them, without trying to explain their garbage to others or trying to get others to understand or approve of their “preference.”

    Like


  515. jorbia said:

    I actually respect the courage of men who will simply say “I prefer white women or Euro looks simply because I prefer them”, without trying to explain their garbage to others or trying to get others to understand or approve of their “preference.”

    Menelik says:

    there is nothing courageous about preferring a societal norm lol. Now saying publically you prefer sex with animals…

    Like


  516. I’ve always felt that the idea of White beauty is one of the hottest things this society has ever packaged and sold. I think black women, especially on the darker end of the spectrum, feel they have to compete with this prefabricated notion of beauty that clearly doesn’t fit them. The contrast is too extreme for that and it’s best left up to women who in general have more in common with them physically.

    I think Black Women would be better engaged in setting to a standard of beauty that highlights features that set them apart. Unfortunately with any standard there has to be a decision to achieve it in order for it to be a solid, cultural representation.

    The concentration of melanin and hair texture is what sets the majority of Black women apart from other races and combos and that needs to be played up.

    The eyes should be clear (the whites). Nothing makes the Almond shaped eye most black women have more piercing than against radiant, clear skin darker skin. A great smile benefits all women but again that skin tone is your canvas and your smile will be noticed more. The textured hair should be arranged in styles that are unique and attractive. When a black woman with her natural texture smooths her hair away from her face there are rows and rows of waves, when she braids her own hair the ends form a coil, I like afro puff the most on black women-really accentuates the neck and those eyes, styles that can only be accomplished with that texture. Plus you have plenty of evidence the textured hair can grow past your bra strap, it’s cheaper just to grow the stuff. The body should be healthy (not in pounds but tone) and carried with grace. Women in Africa carry jars on their heads and babies on their backs and they glide as if they are empty handed.

    Lauryn Hill in the 90s is a perfect example of this, Vanessa A. Williams (the dark one) in her Soul Food years.

    Other races of women should not have to be put down to make Black Women feel good about being Black Women either. Don’t treat being a Black Woman like a burden because everybody else will empathize and try to help you “cope” with it.

    I purpose less money spent on weaves and designer shoes and handbags and more on trips to the dentist and dermatologist, the result are more cost effective and last longer. More sleep, a better diet, and less stress makes the result even better.

    Everything I just said is attainable and doesn’t rely on a White Scale meaning you will be more appreciated for perfecting what you were given instead of changing it.

    Plus most black women aren’t prone to excessive body hair and that is very feminine indeed.

    Like


  517. @all you black ladies and all you guys out there:

    One more time, this is what has happened up here:

    Iyabode Ololade Remilekun Odusoga aka Lola Odusoga, at present Lola Wallinkoski. Miss Finland 1996, second runner up in Mss Universe 1996, Miss Scandinavia 1997. Successful model, media personality, has her own tv- shows etc. Finnish beauty to the bone and yes, a black woman. Has a nice way of swearing too!:-D

    http://www.google.fi/images?q=lola+wallinkoski&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=it_kTOe1EIyGhQeNyZCDDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQsAQwAA

    There you have some pictures of her. So, it is possible to be black, a finn and successfull up here. Of course, we have racists here too, but as she proves, there is nothing to stop you doing what ever you want. Black or white.

    Like


  518. heres another black lady who has made a career and life in the snow white northern wilderness:

    http://www.google.fi/images?hl=fi&lr=lang_fi&client=firefox-a&hs=G6f&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&q=caron+barnes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=_-XkTI_AMsvtsgaNsNS0Cw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQsAQwAA

    Caron Barnes, brittish born black singer/model/actress. Married to a finnish guy, has been acting on a lead in finnish theater in Tampere.

    Like


  519. @Kwamla

    thanks 4 posting the documentary

    Like


  520. and here are some black finnish actors:

    the guy on the right, Henry Hanikka, was in one of the most iconic roles in Finland when he played the legendary war hero Rokka in the teather version of Väinö Linnas Unknown soldier. And he did very well indeed. Also directing etc. Has appeared in tv movies etc. Great actor!

    Like


  521. @Menelik–

    there is nothing courageous about preferring a societal norm lol. Now saying publically you prefer sex with animals…

    I attract black men on campus or at my job who are attracted by my Euro “looks.” When they find out I’m not actually white, some are so “relieved” because they then don’t have to try to explain their white preference to other blacks. These guys love to tell others that I’m black. I would respect them if they just said to everyone, “I prefer white women,” rather than be with me under the pretext that I’m a black woman who just happens to be white-looking. I feel used when that happens because I know that the main reason they’re attracted to me is because of the “white” in me. I feel like a fetish. For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.

    That’s what I mean. I don’t believe that most black men have the courage to just scream to the world: “I want a white woman.” You may not know this, but plenty of them have that preference. Apparently, it is not a societal norm in America for black men to prefer white women because in that case, these guys wouldn’t put themselves and me through this.

    Like


  522. Jorbia,
    Sounds to me by your own experience, that if anything, i’s Black Women who take the most issue with Black/White dating etc than Black Me, because Black Women don’t have to go through all the changes you just talked about that Black Men do when they encounter someone who is White or as you put it, has some White in them. Again, Jill Scott has made her disdain for Black/White IR dating quite well known in Essence magazine, and she is by no means alone among Black Women. Please show me the articles Eric Benet and Sean Coombs have written registering how they felt some kind of way about Black or otherwise non-White White Women hooking up with White Men?

    I’ll wait… 😉

    Holla back

    O.

    Like


  523. Obsidian, your comment was not fully clear, but I can’t say I’ve had a problem with black men in public objecting to me going out with white guys because when I’m with a white guy, I think it’s assumed that I’m white. When black men know I’m not white and see me out with a white guy, a few of them have made little comments later.

    I know of obviously black women who do have a real concern about going out with white men because they say that black men sometimes heckle them in public situations and accuse them of selling out or of being a “slave girl” or make other ridiculous comments.

    There are black women on my campus who have experienced that and I’ve read where other black women have had similar experiences. Women are concerned about safety. 🙂 I’ve also read in the news lately of very violent attacks on 2 black/white couples by groups of black men, where the woman was black and the man was white. The white guys in both cases had to be hospitalized. Do you know of cases where black women violently attacked black men with white women which required hospitalization? If someone has the links, they can post the links to these stories. I wondered why these black men have a problem with black women who are with white men since the rate of black men going out with white women is so much more.

    So, no I haven’t read where any male celebrity publicly objected, but it’s obvious that a lot of black men don’t like it when they see black women with white men.

    And even though some black men may not believe that “snow makes you smarter,” a lot of those same guys do believe that snow makes a woman prettier.

    Like


  524. Obsidian,

    Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them and of course there are some who are not attracted to wm. So why only play up one side of it?!

    WarrenAZ,

    You are spot on. I don’t understand the mentality of some bw. Maybe some are just not strong enough even in mature age to see past the bull that the media promotes. The very features that bw have that make them unique are the very features that others admire in non bw who have them. The euro standard of beauty is for WHITE WOMEN and other women who look white. Why follow something that goes against how you were naturally made? It’s foolishness anyway.

    Like


  525. Shan said:

    Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know?

    Menelik replies:

    because Black women have said so themselves…privately and publically. Most Black women prefer Black men (and vice versa) agreed? Won’t bother asking how you know this to be true though lol

    Like


  526. jorbia says,
    -Obsidian, your comment was not fully clear, but I can’t say I’ve had a problem with black men in public objecting to me going out with white guys because when I’m with a white guy, I think it’s assumed that I’m white. When black men know I’m not white and see me out with a white guy, a few of them have made little comments later.
    -I know of obviously black women who do have a real concern about going out with white men because they say that black men sometimes heckle them in public situations and accuse them of selling out or of being a “slave girl” or make other ridiculous comments.

    Shan says,
    Obsidian,
    Black men have a different way of publicizing their disdain for bw/wm relationships. Of course they are not going to speak publicly about it the way women do. They are men. They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them and of course there are some who are not attracted to wm. So why only play up one side of it?!

    WarrenAZ says,
    You are spot on. I don’t understand the mentality of some bw. Maybe some are just not strong enough even in mature age to see past the bull that the media promotes. The very features that bw have that make them unique are the very features that others admire in non bw who have them. The euro standard of beauty is for WHITE WOMEN and other women who look white. Why follow something that goes against how you were naturally made? It’s foolishness anyway.

    laromana says,
    jorbia, Shan and WarrenAZ, I feel that it’s OUTRAGEOUS that MOST ANTI-BW BM (INCLUDING SOME CELEBRITIES) USE ANTI-BW RACISM to PUBLICLY DEGRADE, DEMEAN, and DISRESPECT BW (as well as VIOLENTLY ATTACK their NON-BLACK PARTNERS).

    By PUBLICLY DISRESPECTING BW/THEIR RELATIONSHIPS, these ANTI-BW BM SEND the NEGATIVE MESSAGE that BW’S HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY AREN’T WORTHY of RESPECT BY ANYONE.

    ALSO, WHEN ANTI-BW BM PUBLICLY DECLARE their EXCLUSIVE PREFERENCE for NON-BW (SOMETHING ONLY ANTI-BW BM DO) they SEND a STRONG, NEGATIVE MESSAGE that they DON’T CONSIDER their SAME RACE WOMEN “GOOD ENOUGH” to DATE or MARRY and that OTHER MEN SHOULDN’T EITHER.

    SINCE ANTI-BW BM have NO BUSINESS INTERFERING in ANY ASPECT of BW’S LIVES (ESPECIALLY THEIR RELATIONSHIP LIVES), THEY HAVE SOME NERVE DOING THIS.

    Like


  527. @ Shan —

    They (such as Chris Rock and other comedians) say things like, bw don’t want wm or bw are not attracted to wm. How would they know? They are neither bw or wm, but yet they are speaking for bw. Do you hear bw in the media telling others who bm like or want? No. Do you hear wm in the media telling others who bw like or want? No. Only bm do that. Why do t hey do that? Maybe hoping the interracial numbers between bw and wm don’t increase. I’ve seen and know many bw who date wm or who are attracted to them

    True, Shan. I’ve noticed this too. Black American men seem to believe they should speak for black women. Why is that? Because of America’s stature in the world and due to various American high-profile black women, American black women are known for being intelligent, well educated, well spoken, and obviously highly capable of speaking for themselves, yet black men like Chris Rock and others, do try to point white men and black women away from each other using various tactics. As you said, it does seem that they try to discourage black women and white men relationships. Why would black men even care especially since they are themselves having relationships with white and other women at a high rate?

    I noticed how Obsidian TOLD black women the other day what we should talk about and what our priorities should be as if women are not capable of knowing what we want to talk about or of choosing our own priorities. Instead, it seems to me that black American men need to tell each other what THEIR priorities should be since these men obviously need help. Obsidian even talks about that on his site and complains that no one is paying attention to black men. Then, why don’t they pay attention to each other?

    Like


  528. @Menelik–

    because Black women have said so themselves…privately and publically. Most Black women prefer Black men (and vice versa) agreed? Won’t bother asking how you know this to be true though lol

    I don’t agree, not when it comes to black women. Menelik, it may make you feel better to believe this, but many black women would tell a black man they prefer them to make that man feel better. Some women are highly aware of how the ego of certain men need to be stroked. If a black woman were to tell a man like you that she prefers white men, what would your reaction be?

    Some black women are very attracted to white men. They even prefer them. Some black women are very attracted to black men. They even prefer them. As I said above, some black women are very cautious about how they relate to white men when they are around black men due to heckling, crudeness and sometimes even worse.

    Like


  529. jorbia says,
    As I said above, some black women are very cautious about how they relate to white men when they are around black men due to heckling, crudeness and sometimes even worse.

    laromana says,
    jorbia, I believe in RECIPROCITY when it comes to how BW should relate to BM.
    For example, if I PREFER WM, THAT’S MY BUSINESS, and I WON’T ALLOW ANY BM TO “INITMIDATE ME” INTO NOT ACTING ON MY PREFERENCE.
    WHO DO THESE ANTI-BW BM THINK THEY ARE ANYWAY?

    If an American BM is ANTI-BW, I DON’T OWE HIM ANYTHING and IF HE ATTEMPTS TO INTERFERE IN ANY PART OF MY LIFE I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF/MY LOVED ONES IN ANY WAY I DEEM APPROPRIATE.

    BW have the RIGHT to LIVE THEIR LIVES ANY WAY THEY CHOOSE and NO ONE, ESPECIALLY ANTI-BW BM, is ALLOWED to DICTATE (IN ANY WAY) HOW WE LIVE OUR LIVES.

    Like


  530. jorbia, I believe in RECIPROCITY when it comes to how BW should relate to BM.
    For example, if I PREFER WM, THAT’S MY BUSINESS, and I WON’T ALLOW ANY BM TO “INITMIDATE ME” INTO NOT ACTING ON MY PREFERENCE.

    Yes, we all want a stress free social life. No woman should feel that they’re going to have a problem just because they’re going out to the movies or hanging out somewhere with a man they like. There are a lot of different nationalities and races on my northeastern campus, and the only women who ever talk about feeling they’re going to be harassed for going out with men from other groups are black women. Some women from Africa there say that black American men have made little comments to them too if they see them with white guys or guys who they even think are white.

    Like


  531. For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.

    And this is one of the things that bothers me about this “conversation”. A dark skinned black man like myself can never win. I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.

    It can never be that they are NORMAL HEALTHY MEN who like ALL MEN are interested in ATTRACTIVE women. No, we are supposed to limit ourselves to only a small portion of the human female population. A White man by default can never be “colorist” seeing how most non-white women are automatically darker than him.

    And notice that it is only a one way street. If a Dark skin man pursues a light skin woman than there is some great affront being committed on darker skin women. It never seems to catch on with the colorism police that the light skin woman is CHOOSING a darker skinned man over potential lighter skin men. The ligher skin woman never gets credit for overcoming “media brainwashing” , instead she gets attacked for “stealing” dark skin men from dark skin women.

    The opposite is true. If a light skin man pursues a dark skin woman, then he is treated as a “independent thinker” and the colorism police is silent and no one ever questions light skin men about “stealing” dark skin women away from dark skin men (as if any group “belongs” to another). No one ever accuses dark skin women of being “brainwashed.

    Nevermind that we all consume the same media. Magically only dark skinned men (and the light skin women that indulge them) are susceptible and accountable to the effects.

    This “conversation” gives Black men 3 options:

    1) voice your opposition to the nonsense and endure all sorts of attacks on your character for DARING to speaking out of the place designated for you (in dark skin womens beds ONLY). Just merely speaking is “evidence” of your being brainwashed/self-hating/beauty standards promoting/black woman hating, etc. If anyone has the leverage/power don’t be surprised to even have your voice muted from the conversation.

    2) ignore the conversation and “accept” that you are brainwashed/self-hating/beauty standards promoting/black woman hating, etc. Even though you really aren’t it is better than the alternative that is #3.

    3) surrender you manhood and LIMIT yourself to a small segment of the female population out of some misguided notion that you are striking a victory for “civil rights”.

    I fluctuate between option 1 and option 2. I don’t forsee myself ever doing option 3, as I don’t do “sympathy sex” let alone “sympathy romance”. Besides, I couldn’t respect ANY WOMAN that I needed to be browbeated and shamed into being with. Even more so, I can’t respect ANY WOMAN who feels that it is okay to “acquire” men who have been browbeaten and shamed into “liking” them.

    Like


  532. Black men will stop giving advice or voicing their opinion about Black women when Black women stop voicing their opinion about or giving advice to Black men. In other words, about three weeks past never.

    Women and men of every race or ethnicity constantly give their opinions (some self-serving, some not) about the opposite gender. It’s human nature.

    Like


  533. Menelik,

    I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.

    Like


  534. @ Truth B. Told —

    I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.

    I think that you are greatly simplifying this situation to the point of being disingenuous. I’m sure you know what the issues are here and if not, then maybe a guy here can explain it all to you.

    It can never be that they are NORMAL HEALTHY MEN who like ALL MEN are interested in ATTRACTIVE women.

    Per this thread, when most of the “ATTRACTIVE” women are thought to be white women or those who can pass the paper bag test or are Euro featured, then don’t you find that it’s suspicious and brutal to good women that so many men can’t see the the attractiveness in women who are darker than the paper bag? This is the same complexion hierarchy that victimizes you as a black man, but in other ways.

    (in dark skin womens beds ONLY).

    You make that sound like that would be a curse or something. What does it matter whether she’s dark or not. That’s the whole point to the thread, I thought. ALL women are WOMEN. A dark-skinned woman is STILL a woman. She can be much more attractive than a light woman. Would you ever complain about being ONLY in a white woman’s bed? Would you make that sound like a curse too?

    I don’t forsee myself ever doing option 3, as I don’t do “sympathy sex” let alone “sympathy romance”.

    Well, some of us women who are lighter than that paper bag don’t want to be “fetish” romance OBJECTS either. I don’t want any man wanting to be with me because he’s think that “snow” makes me prettier.

    Besides, I couldn’t respect ANY WOMAN that I needed to be browbeated and shamed into being with. Even more so, I can’t respect ANY WOMAN who feels that it is okay to “acquire” men who have been browbeaten and shamed into “liking” them

    Well, I couldn’t respect any man who wants me ONLY or MAINLY for my complexion or can only see me as attractive if I’m of a more-Euro complexion or featured. There are women like me who know that some black men want them for their complexion and they don’t care. Some of those women use their complexion to manipulate the situation to get what they want. I just happen not to be one of those women and I think it does a lot of harm to most black women who don’t happen to be lighter than a paper bag or don’t look Euro because that’s called upholding white supremacy or the complexion hierarchy that so many blacks constantly complain about. Why would YOU, a black man, want to do that?

    Black men are known to be notorious for this. It’s common knowledge by now that lots of black men seek out lighter women or white women simply because they’re lighter. I hope no one will start posting those links citing faulty or selective research about how ALL men supposedly are attracted to lighter women.

    Like


  535. Shady_Grady says,
    Black men will stop giving advice or voicing their opinion about Black women when Black women stop voicing their opinion about or giving advice to Black men. In other words, about three weeks past never.

    Women and men of every race or ethnicity constantly give their opinions (some self-serving, some not) about the opposite gender. It’s human nature

    laromana says,
    SG, ANTI-BW BM AREN’T JUST “GIVING THEIR OPINION”. WE WOULDN’T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IF THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS TO IT.
    SEVERAL BW HAVE ALREADY MENTIONED HOW ANTI-BW BM WILL TRY TO “DISRESPECT/INTIMIDATE” THEM WHEN THEY’RE OUT WITH NON-BM OR THINK THEY HAVE THE “RIGHT” TO DICTATE WHO BW SHOULD/SHOULDN’T DATE. THAT’S WHAT WE’RE TALKING ABOUT SG, AND I’VE GOT NEWS FOR YOU, BW DON’T OWE ANTI-BW BM MEN ANYTHING.
    WE CAN LIVE OUR LIVES ANY WAY WE WANT WITHOUT COWTOWING TO ANTI-BW BM OR ANYONE ELSE. GET IT?!

    Truth B. Told
    For that reason, I’m suspicious of why a black man is even interested in me.

    And this is one of the things that bothers me about this “conversation”. A dark skinned black man like myself can never win. I would guess that I am darker than 98% of the women I meet, no matter her race. If men like me DARE show any interest in any woman lighter than ourselves (even though 98% of Women fit the bill) then it must be some form of brainwashing/self-hate/beauty standards/black woman hating, etc.

    laromana says,
    TBT, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? MOST BW COULD CARE LESS WHO BM DATE.

    IT’S HYPOCRITICAL, RACIST, ANTI-BW BM, WHO HATE BW, WHO ARE GOING AROUND TRYING TO CONTROL WHICH MEN BW DATE OR MARRY.

    DATE/MARRY WHO YOU WANT AND TELL ANTI-BW BM TO STAY OUT OF BW’S BUSINESS.

    Like


  536. Shan & jorbia,

    both of you are somewhat delusional and ill. If you insist something is so then I shall accept it because you speak for the vast majority of Black men and women (both groups according to you two prefer white women and men).

    Seriously, in your perverse, and desperate, attempts to score points against Black men you are prepared to turn a half-truth into a full-blown lie and a lie into an outrageous racist assault!

    I feel sorry for you both.

    Please take my advice and assimilate into the white race. Cease commenting on any issues relating to Black America. Give Glen Beck a try. The masses of self-respecting Black people can do without you.

    Bye!

    Menelik Charles
    London

    Like


  537. laromana,

    I’d like to know how my remarks are disrespectful, violent, or abusive. Black women need to set their on standard of beauty, is that something you think would lead to the abuse and violence against Black Women? I highly doubt it.

    Shan,

    It’s such a bold statement for a collective of Black American Women to promote and perfect these differences. Imagine the self esteem they could foster among the young girls and the respect it would command in this nation. In the age of Youtube there is no reason why this seniment can’t be shared and demonstrated as any other idea or solution that Black Women adapt.

    All,

    If Black American Women want to stem the tide of negative representation they have to create and fortify their own positive image. I challenge Black American Women to be creative and diligent in this pursuit. So far there is no positive standard for asthetics that Black American Women can agree on unless it qualifies all Black American Women and that itself defeats the purpose of having one.

    Like


  538. @ Truth B Told,

    is great to have you back, man; yours is always a voice of reason who’s guaranteed to cut through the lies and delusions many on here peddle as crystal-clear truths.

    Welcome back, Bro!

    Like


  539. Menelik,

    Delusional and ill? If you are going to use that type of language simply because you don’t agree maybe YOU should leave. Where did it say in my post that most bw and bm prefer wm and wm? Find it! I never said that. Reread the post to clear your head. I simply said that bw who are open to dating wm and other non bm do not publicize it. Bw who prefer bm are the ones who usually publicize it which will make it seem that most and all black women prefer bm which may be the case but its not a strong majority. What that means Menelik, is that there are plenty of bw (even though your ego may not be able to handle it) who like non bm. And yes the majority of bw may like and prefer bm but there is a substantial number of bw who are OPEN to dating other races but no one is speaking on their behalf which makes it seem that there are no bw who may be open or interested in other races.

    I can walk past a bm and ww who are conversing and laughing and it will not phase me. Yet, when I am conversing with a wm or having a laugh some bm and ww give me the side eye. Can you explain that? Is it because bw dare not “stay in their place?” This is from my personal experience and has happened on numerous occasions so these are not isolated incidences. I’ve actually had bm approach me after I was through talking and laughing with a wm and say “Why you talking to all these white boys?” as if I owe them an explanation. And yet these same bm will turn around and “holler” up white women, latinas and dare me or any other bw to say something about it. Of course there are some bm who don’t care but I’m obviously not speaking about those men.

    In the 90s and early 2000s, bw were publicizing the “nothing but a brutha” propaganda. I don’t hear that as often today. It is because many bw are opening their eyes to the hypocrisy of some bm who bed down and marry white women and latinas and get googly eyed over them and yet expect bw to sit around and either be alone or wait for that “good brutha.”

    Interracial numbers are increasing, not that I’m impressed with that. There are way more bm dating interracially than bw anyway, but the playing field will soon even out. Maybe that’s what many bm are afraid of…..they don’t want bw interracial numbers to equal or surpass theirs…..just a thought.

    You may think that I prefer wm simply because I’m not on the “nothing but a brutha” bandwagon, but that is far from the truth. I just don’t listen to the mind control propaganda that many bw are under and I march to the beat of my own drum. Most of the men I’ve dated were black, and I find other races of men to be attractive and handsome and I make no apologies for it, as many bm don’t make apologies for their attraction to latinas and other non bw.

    If you can’t respond in a mature manner without the insults, then do not respond to any more of my posts as I won’t respond to any of yours. Thank you.

    Like


  540. Shan said:

    Menelik,

    I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.

    menelik asks:

    know what to be “true”? What have I said wasn’t apparently “true” that you were disputing?

    Answer that question and I’ll answer yours!

    Like


  541. WarrenAZ says,
    laromana,

    I’d like to know how my remarks are disrespectful, violent, or abusive. Black women need to set their on standard of beauty, is that something you think would lead to the abuse and violence against Black Women? I highly doubt it.

    laromana says,
    WarrenAZ,
    I NEVER said that YOUR remarks were disrespectful, violent, or abusive. I AGREED with your remarks and believe we feel the same about ANTI-BW BM (group of men I feel ARE violent, disrespectful, and abusive towards BW).
    I think you’ve misread my comments.

    Like


  542. Shan says:

    Menelik,

    I know it to be true because I am a bw. Bw who prefer bm publicize it. Bw who prefer wm or who are open to dating non bm don’t publicize which makes it seem that all bw prefer bm when that is not the case.

    laromana says,
    Shan, thanks for pointing out this FACT about BW’s PREFERENCES.
    It makes no sense to me that MANY ANTI-BW BM who are of NO to LOW VALUE to BW, feel that THEY SHOULD ONLY WANT THEM, while they’re FREE to LOVE ANYONE BUT BW.

    Like


  543. @ laromana,

    once again I have absolutely no idea what the hell you’re talking about!

    Like


  544. http://checkerofreality.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-certain-black-women-hate-nerdy.html

    And you ‘ladies’ talk about everyday inter-racial harassment?

    Like


  545. Dear Shan: your words are like they are written from my head! I would love to help you on your endeavour :)) I hope you have a blog or something, or email.

    Like


  546. @ warren az

    your right work with what you have, i do, i take care of me

    that guy talking on the video sounds stupid

    you have polite, friendly, sistas. what club is he going to. he also make the other women seem easy. its all about your approach and he sounds arrogrant. being too friendly we don’t want to be harassed. a women have the right to be selective. a black women can see threw you. i guess we just tired. of the same old cornball. you have a few good black men but you have a whole lot of ass holes that always trying to disrespect us. so we picky. we have to feel you any women in here right mind ain’t going to be at the club showing her teeth to every men in there.so we ain’t going to smile because we don’t want you to come over. it’s you we are trying to chase away.

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