White Americans often derail an argument about race by making it about their feelings. The feelings of white people, for some strange reason, matter more than the truth or any of their faults. Like they are two-year-olds used to getting their way.
Sometimes they make it about your feelings as a person of colour: you are oversensitive, angry, hateful, whining, etc.
Either way the argument is shifted away from facts and reasons, rights and wrongs – to what? Feelings. Feelings which only they can know – even if they are yours! (Try telling them you are not hateful, for example.) That puts them in control of the now-derailed argument.
In the most common case they get angry because they think you are calling them a racist. That they might in fact be racist does not matter – just their hurt feelings.
But while their feelings are the centre of the known universe, they use your feelings to belittle your experience, to assume you are unreasonable, the kind who imagines things or blows them out of proportion.
Sometimes they use their feelings as a kind of blackmail. As Renee of Womanist Musings put it:
We are routinely told if we spoke in nicer terms we would be less alienating, as though whiteness has any real interest in divesting itself of its power. Gee, if only we had realized that the key to ending white hegemony was speaking in respectful terms, it never would have been necessary to go through the heartache and strife of a civil rights movement.
Nezua the Unapologetic Mexican noticed this too. In his Glosario he calls it the Drowning Maestro. Some of his examples:
- “We’d admit about your point if you presented it nicer.”
- “People would listen to your complaint if you weren’t so loud.”
- “If you want people to care about this, you should learn to be smoother.”
Nezua:
… what really bothers them is that a brown person has the nerve to speak with such self-confidence and passion. This, in fact, scares them. … what is really desired is for the brown person to admit the desired hierarchy, to get “back in place.”
He agrees with Renee that they have no interest in hearing people of colour – not even the nicest, smoothest and most respectful ones.
How we know: if you stepped on my foot, say, I might be angry, I might be loud, I might seem “oversensitive” or like I am whining (after all it is my foot that is in pain, not yours), I might not be smooth, I might seem hateful, etc. But then for you to say stuff like this:
- “I’d admit I stepped on your foot if you said it nicer.”
- “I would listen to your complaint if you weren’t so loud.”
- “If you want me to care about your foot, you should learn to be smoother.”
only proves that you do not care at all, that you are a jerk who just wants me to shut up and “move on”.
See also:
Good post, except for the flawed foot analogy. In terms of race, white people don’t even know that they’ve “stepped on your foot.”
I think their cluelessness is mostly an act:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/are-most-white-people-benevolently-clueless/
and, of course, unbelievably self-serving:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/why-whites-are-blind-to-their-racism/
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/the-white-lens/
You summed up well the way I feel on this matter. I write about diversity for a local publication in my area and my editor and I (he is white/I am black) really could not get why he was only not understanding me but was actually offending me.
I had written about the Gates issue over the summer and I felt like the onus was being placed on me with no regards for him and by extension our white readers to accept responsibility for their feelings.
Anyway great post!
This post sums it up really well; the stepping-on-the-foot illustration is very helpful. I used to think the “problem” when I tried to explain something (be it race issues, work issues, personal issues, etc.) was my lack of clarity or eloquence, so I was always doubting myself. Now I realize that sometimes people don’t want to understand what is being said, as it might require them to take responsibility and do something. In fact, sometimes it seems the clearer I am and the more obvious the issue, the more people act like I’m speaking a different language they can’t understand. It can really do a number on your self-confidence.
But Nezua is right! In many situations, not just race related, once you “get back in line”, know your place, comply, and say the “right things” – suddenly I’m speaking clearly again and everyone can understand me!
For any other social issue – eg: domestic violence, drunk driving, etc. – the issue itself gets discussed. There may be debate and differing viewpoints, but you never (at least I don’t) hear complaints that the issues aren’t being raised nicely enough or respectfully enough. Imagine how absurd it would be if I said we need to find ways to address child abuse and my audience responded with “We’d admit your point if you presented it nicer.” Come on, would anyone have the nerve to say “I would care about ending child abuse, if only she wasn’t so hostile when she talks about it.” Either you care about the issue or you don’t.
Thank you for continuing to provide posts that help us see and understand what’s really going on, and which help me to know that I’m not imagining it all!
Even if you make the point in a nice, Christian way, they still don’t get it. They just do not want to hear the truth if it is at their expense.
At Slate.com, someone started a post claiming that Michelle Obama is plain. Another poster called her “ugly as sin”. When someone pointed out that this could be seen as racism, the poster of course started whining about being called a racist. It was quite pathetic.
Susan said:
“I used to think the “problem” when I tried to explain something (be it race issues, work issues, personal issues, etc.) was my lack of clarity or eloquence, so I was always doubting myself. Now I realize that sometimes people don’t want to understand what is being said, as it might require them to take responsibility and do something. In fact, sometimes it seems the clearer I am and the more obvious the issue, the more people act like I’m speaking a different language they can’t understand. It can really do a number on your self-confidence.”
LOL. Same here!
yawn, yet ANOTHER bashing of american whites. so very typical and very 1990’s. universities have given up on this stuff because it’s all the same and quite dull. your articles, abagond, are just unscientific ranting, and very unconvincing. seems like only your feelings count, doesn’t it?
It’s so “yawn” yet it got you to sit your butt down and write a paragraph.
Seems like orchid is just mad cos she didn’t write it.. hahahaha
Orchid:
You win the Roissy for this thread: you proved my point in the act of disagreeing with it. And on comment #8 no less!
Just like I said in the post you are trying to make it about feelings – my own (“seems like only your feelings count, doesn’t it?”) as well as yours (“it’s all the same and quite dull”). If only I had a nicer way of presenting my case then you might listen – again, just like in the post. You even seek to discredit me as someone mainly driven by my feelings: “unscientfiic rantings”.
Orchid “yawn” at the same old tired stuff he/she reads but stumbles on Abagond’s blog to post anyways. Lame!
Some people will never get “it” will they?
this is completely absurd in my honest opinion. “the feelings of white people.” how insightful of a post is this meant to be exactly?
ill take it as a post fueled by distasteful experiences. but i wont deny that what Abagond said may be true to a certain extent….
Abagond, you’re so accurate and succinct. I’ve run two posts on racism this week, and it’s annoying when an obsessive racist will cherry-pick for one thing they can disagree on, or distract or derail the topic, or turn it about their feelings to legitimize their offensiveness, and their-their-their ad nauseum.
They wait for the it’s okay, honey chile like spoiled brats waiting for mommy to forgive their temper tantrum, and then do it again. One was so sneaky that he or she pretended to be black but was in fact, white.
While a number of whites are doing honest introspection on themselves, the blind, hardcore racist, justifies their offensiveness, resents sharing the planet, and is scared sh*tless of equality. It’s crazy when you think about it, because multicultural friends and activities are fun, but they haven’t discovered that.
The racist mindset has turned some of them into dangerous, pistol-packing fools just dying for the next Hurricane Katrina or a social meltdown so they’ll have an excuse to shoot innocent brown people. I find that group of haters more terrifying than terrorists.
“In the most common case they get angry because they think you are calling them a racist.”
This is what I think is at the heart of the matter. During talks of racism, it’s not easy not to take things personally if you’re white. It’s hard not to get upset when it’s implied that people with skin color the same as your own are perpetuating racism in ways you weren’t even aware of, or that even YOU were perpetuating racism unwittingly.
I think defensiveness and hurt feelings are normal for those who are being exposed to the truth for the first time. It’s one of the first stages towards racial sobriety.
Sometimes white people are truly clueless, sometimes it is just an act. How I tell the difference:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/are-most-white-people-benevolently-clueless/
I deleted two comments, one by Erzulie and one by the Right to Party. If you feel someone is calling you names, it is best to tell me in a separate comment or in an email.
Thanks for the link, agabond. I enjoyed reading that post. I still think it’s more akin to alchololism and grief then simply stepping on a person’s foot. According to the Institute for Recovery from Racisms, there are stages of racial sobriety: denial, anger, barganing, depression, acceptance, re-engagement, and forgiveness.
I see it like this: Whites who talk all about their hurt feelings are in the denial/anger stage. Whites who talk use the Arab Trader argument are in the barganing stage. Unfortunately, some whites don’t get past the barganing stage. Some however, do and enter the depression stage and envelope themselves with self-hatred. If you can get past self-hatred, then you’re on your way to actually improving yourself and can work towards combating racism and white supremacy in your life.
That’s how I see it, anyway. I’m certainly no expert.
That is an interesting – racism as being like alcoholism. I will have to look into that.
You might be interested in this post:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/08/12/growing-up-white/
Its similar to when some white people get bothered with the term “african-american”. the common argument is “why dont you just say you’re an american without the hyphen..thats why we have so much racism because you guys distance yourselves. if you’re an american be an american.”
Completely disregarding the fact that African-American is a term coined sometime around the 1980s and racism has been going on wayyy longer than that. Its a way for them to deflect the real argument and make themselves feel better. I dont even bother entertaining a convo with someone who has this narcissistic, I-can-never-be-wrong world view.
If you werent racist you wouldnt get so defensive. Kind of like how a pathological liar always thinks everyone else is lying. They are telling on themselves when they do that
@abagond – Yes! That post is very similar to how I think it goes with most white folks. My own experience was different, although, there will always be exceptions to the rule.
therighttoparty said:
“this is completely absurd in my honest opinion. “the feelings of white people.” how insightful of a post is this meant to be exactly?”
Well, if it is absurd, then it cannot be insightful. Just how is it absurd? This kind of stuff does not matter to you? Or you think I am making it up? It did not make sense? What do you mean?
I really like your blog, just found it and I am impressed with what you’re doing here.
However, I think you were wrong when you wrote this:
“Either way the argument is shifted away from facts and reasons, rights and wrongs – to what? Feelings”
The truth is, right and wrong along with many facts and reasons are based on feelings. Our personal feelings dictate our outlook on what is reasonable, or factual, or right or wrong.
Yes, it is irritating when white people derail conversations with an insistence to discuss their feelings, but the real problem for me is that they assume their feelings are more important than mine.
This is nothing but the typical white superiority complex.
I call it mental illness, like megalomania, people that need to make themselves look bigger and more important and they truly believe they are better and more important!
Its the same thing i see in the stores, white women think they are more important than me even though i am also a customer.
They look at you as if they own the planet and they expect to be catered to first.
No white person’s feelings are more important than mine no matter how much they think so.
Dude, you’re getting so boring and predictable. DO you have any interests besides hating white people? Do you have any hobbies? Any passions? Do you blog about any other topics? Does this make you feel proud and accomplished? You’re just preaching to the choir. You seem like a very pathetic and sad person. You’re literally obsessed with white folks. You need to get a life. You need a girlfriend or something. Go get some exercise.
Dude, you’re getting so boring and predictable. DO you have any interests besides hating white people? Do you have any hobbies? Any passions? Do you blog about any other topics? Does this make you feel proud and accomplished? You’re just preaching to the choir. You seem like a very pathetic and sad person. You’re literally obsessed with white folks. You need to get a life. You need a girlfriend or something. Go get some exercise.
You’ve just proved his point! If you had bothered to peruse this blog, you would have seen that there are many topics that are not just about the writer’s ‘hatred’ for white people. Had you done so you would have noticed this even on a cursory level(presuming you just perused the blog topics by going to the index section ). Hence your condescending manner is uncalled for. Since you felt a need to respond in this way by attacking him personally, I can only presume he has hit a nerve. If you found his writing to be so obsessive towards whites, you should have gone elsewhere where the blogging would be to your liking. Instead, you felt compelled to attack his personality and his intentions. These types of retorts to this subject, are beginning to sound like broken records and if nothing else, humorous. This comment supplies a good example of what Abagond is trying to illustrate.
^ As always, Herneith, very well said.
@ Herneith: Thank you.
@ Pat:
In general I delete comments that call people names. They prove nothing and just get people angry.
I disagree with almost everyone here.
And yes Herneith, I have read abagond’s other posts and while he is more balanced than most, when it comes down to his/her thoughts on white people and topics involving racism, abagond starts off with good intentions but ends up becoming something completely different.
Any debate is met with “Well if you don’t totally agree with me, you’re a racist or you’re wrong”.
I’ve seen countless examples of abagond and others shooting down a commenter who dares to contradict any of their points.
I’ve even seen the all too funny: “Where are your facts/statistics?”
I have yet to see ANYONE on here making their case with the use of statistics even though many are readily available…. so why on earth should any dissenting viewpoint be required to provide statistics?
leigh204 might have made the only worthwhile comment with: “Some people will never get “it” will they?”
I couldn’t agree more, it looks like Orchid doesn’t get ‘it’. But neither do leigh204, abagond or almost every other commenter.
Kyle, as with everyone on this post, you are entitled to your opinion. That is the point.
AO, of course I realize everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I’m simply voicing my frustration that no matter where I go and no matter the topic (racism, politics, foreign affairs, etc…) it seems like there is absolutely no serious discussion taking place, period.
I rarely post anywhere, on blogs or forums because there is no serious discussion. The reason I have chosen to do so here is because this blog isn’t a disaster zone yet.
He/She makes good points, it’s just in many cases (s)he goes even further and makes a bunch of ridiculous, unsubstantiated claims.
And I realize no one is going to be completely objective and I’m guessing many times abagond is just ranting.
What things could I do to make it better?
Kyle
I disagree with almost everyone here.
And yes Herneith, I have read abagond’s other posts and while he is more balanced than most, when it comes down to his/her thoughts on white people and topics involving racism, abagond starts off with good intentions but ends up becoming something completely different.
Any debate is met with “Well if you don’t totally agree with me, you’re a racist or you’re wrong”.
I’ve seen countless examples of abagond and others shooting down a commenter who dares to contradict any of their points.
I’ve even seen the all too funny: “Where are your facts/statistics?”
I have yet to see ANYONE on here making their case with the use of statistics even though many are readily available…. so why on earth should any dissenting viewpoint be required to provide statistics?
leigh204 might have made the only worthwhile comment with: “Some people will never get “it” will they?”
I couldn’t agree more, it looks like Orchid doesn’t get ‘it’. But neither do leigh204, abagond or almost every other commenter.”
You’re just an example of the post itself.
You come on here calling everybody clueless because they aren’t buttering up white people like you want them to.
You think what you feel is more important than the truth
just because you’re white you think your feelings are more important than anything.
This topic is not about agreeing, its about white people who believe their feelings, thoughts and what they want is more important than everything.
White people and their typical god-complex.
Black Cherry seems to be a sock puppet of Erzulie Red Eyes.
“abagond
Black Cherry seems to be a sock puppet of Erzulie Red Eyes.”
LOL Hey now.
Kyle:
Far from being a rant full of unsubstiantiated claims, this post gets at one of the main troubles I have on this blog (and which I think anyone who tries to honestly discuss race in America will have): on the one hand I want as many white commenters as I can get but on the other hand I must be honest too.
Being truthful drives away whites. For example, at the end of September I wrote “What this blog has taught me about white people”. Soon after I lost two of my best white commenters and a fourth of my traffic.
So, despite the anonymity of the Internet, it is hard to have a discussion about race with whites: if you are too truthful, it drives them away. If you tiptoe round certain things, you can get more white commenters, but the discussion is less fruitful because certain things are understood to be out of bounds.
So the blogosphere winds up like a high school cafeteria where blacks and whites sit at separate tables.
The problem I have would be with the stuff you have in other posts/blog entries such as: ‘doctors try harder to save white patients over black ones’.
Racism does play a role when an insurance company accepts or denies a claim.
You used the example of the homeless black guy vs. the rich/middle class white girl.
Chances are, any homeless guy regardless of race is going to be shoved off to the side.
And I would also agree that the older you are, the smaller the chances of you getting care:
In my area this happened very recently: there was an old, poor (economically) white guy, he waited for 24 HOURS at an ER, collapsed and died as the nurses and administrators chose to ignore him.
And by chose to ignore him, I mean he was desperate and went over to the counter many, many times only to be told to sit back down and wait. The whole thing was captured on video.
I am sure that race, age and economic status do play a role in determining treatment, however:
When it comes down to an emergency like a heart attack or a car crash, a doctor will try hard to save your life, regardless of your race. (At least in my opinion)
You could have chosen to make the point about discrimination and racism at hospitals and insurance companies but you went straight to:
‘doctors try harder to save white patients.’
I have a problem with stuff like this because I have a hard time believing it. In some extremely rare circumstances could this be the case? Yes, but you make it sound like this is a daily reality.
Obviously no one wants to dance around the issue instead of hitting the nail on the head (unless of course you’re a white person, no not all white people but most). But I don’t think stuff like ‘doctors try harder to save white patients’ adds anything to the discussion and the only thing these kind of comments will do is make it harder to sit down and talk openly about racism and how it is still alive and well.
I prefer to stick to stuff like this:
White people and any non-black person will get less prison time for the same crime.
A white person gets charged with possession of illegal substance whereas a black person with the same amount is charged with intent to distribute (much more serious offense).
A study recently showed that around 2/3s of Americans respond to the face of a black man with fear. (This was extremely scientific, they measured it with brain activity.) And by the way – this was across all races, everyone had around the same response to a black face vs. a white one.
Why? Because these are opinions based on fact whereas something like:
doctors try harder to save white patients
is an opinion that I have an extremely hard time believing. I used to volunteer at a hospital and I know many doctors and nurses and still do. If a patient is coming in by ambulance, collapses at the door, or is in serious distress, the doctors and nurses jump into action, race doesn’t play any part in my opinion.
I would be interested in looking at the administrative and insurance side because that’s where racism probably does exist in healthcare.
Obviously all of the above is opinion and personal accounts with the exception of the law being unfair and the study I talked about.
As an aside: With all that time volunteering and being at hospitals, if you’re in for long term care, ALWAYS ask the doctors and nurses to wash their hands.
They seem to be too lazy, forgetful or they just don’t care.
I’ve seen patients die of infections (and not what they were originally brought in for) and in the back of my mind, I’m thinking it could be because the doctors and nurses aren’t washing their hands.
I didn’t just stand by, I complained (as in filed a complaint) about it but I doubt one guy complaining about it is going to change anything.
Because the post above is so long I’ll just try and tell you how I feel about this blog:
Good intentions and many good points… however sometimes you make claims that are baseless, they may seem ‘true’ to you but what you see as truth, I see as wrong and what a white person may see as insulting.
No one wants to tiptoe around and avoid issues because white people will try to stop the discussion if you are frank, and brutally honest about the discrimination and racism that black people face, but:
I see some of your posts and claims (that I believe are false or aren’t very representative of what you’re trying to say) as loading the gun for white people to shoot down the argument and derail the discussion.
Blackcherry my comment was a commentary on his/her blog in general and not this one topic.
I’m not very tech savvy so when I was here, I just posted my thoughts.
Kyle:
Excellent comments! Thank you for being honest and specific. It gives me something to think about.