Was Hitler evil?
Most White Americans will say yes: he killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust!
But to avoid any double standard we should apply the same moral reasoning White Americans apply to their own history:
- Everyone does it. Tribalism goes back to at least the invention of the spear. History is full of mass killing of civilians: Rwanda, Congo, Darfur, Srebrenica, Hiroshima, Hanoi, Gaza, Dresden, Nanking, Tamerlane, Alexander the Great, Mongols, Assyrians, Iroquois, the killing of Armenians, Kurds, American Indians, Australian Aboriginals, Tasmanians, Namibians and on and on. If Hitler killed more people than some others, it was because he had better technology.
- Technology made him do it. Anyone with Hitler’s technology would have done the same thing.
- Europeans kill each other all the time. What’s the big deal?
- Jews are racist too. They have forced Palestinians off their land, apply separate laws to them and regularly massacre Palestinian civilians.
- Americans are no better. They have forced American Indians off their land, applied separate laws to them and regularly massacred American Indian civilians.
- Hitler is not uniquely evil. See above.
- Hitler’s intentions were good. He saw the Holocaust as doing the world a favour.
- It was the times! The West back then was nakedly racist. Racism had the backing of science. The book Hitler called his Bible was bought by over a million Americans: “The Passing of the Great Race” (1916) by Madison Grant, a rich New Yorker. The word genocide was not invented till 1943 and not properly defined till after the war – by the winners to condemn Hitler! We should not judge the past by current morals.
- We should be grateful. Germans invented the printing press, car, jet plane, rocket, etc. They gave us much of the modern medicine that allows most people to live past 40. Albert Schweitzer and other Germans have helped people in Africa. Condemning Hitler without pointing out all the good Germans have done is unbalanced and hypocritical.
- Get over it! It took place a long time ago. My family did not take part in it. No one you know was affected by it. Why make such a big deal about it? The past is dead and gone. There are more important issues.
- It is racist to talk about racism. Talking about anti-Semitism keeps it alive. Condemning Hitler is divisive.
- You can dismiss what Americans say about Hitler: they were his enemies; many of their journalists and historians are Jewish; their schools teach patriotic lies.
Every single one of these arguments, with the names changed, have been used on this blog to downplay American racism, slavery and genocide.
W.E.B. Du Bois:
there was no Nazi atrocity – concentration camps, wholesale maiming and murder, defilement of women or ghastly blasphemy of childhood – which the Christian civilization of Europe had not long been practicing against colored folk in all parts of the world in the name of and for the defense of a Superior Race born to rule the world.
See also:
Abagond 
Wow. High-risk post.
I get your point, and it’s a valid one, but I’d guess this one could get a lot of deliberate misinterpretation from some quarters.
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A thought provoking post Abagond
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Very nice job at taking a different pov to help people think! 🙂 I really like it.
One small thing, while the 6 million number is common, the agreeded upon minimum number is more like 10-11 million when counting all of the groups (gays, educated, etc etc) murdered.
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[…] Recommended Article FROM https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/was-hitler-evil/ […]
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Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
Very good piece. Sound moral logic. But….morality itself is flawed. Julius Abagond agrees that abortion is killing innocent children. But without abortion, people will have large families and invade each other countries.
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Was he evil–unequivocally, yes.
Was he also human (as shown in the pic above with a small child)? Yes. The little girl was an admirer of Hitler and that day is her birthday where he invited her to his summer home–The Berghof–for strawberries and cream. He presented her with a necklace and tour of his home.
Hitler is a very, very interesting figure because historical figures are always complex and there were multiple sides to him.
Hitler also had LOTS of young women admirers. He also admired young women and had many worked for him in his personal office. In fact, many young German women would vie for a spot just to be his personal assistant and interviews were conducted much like America’s Next Top Model contests…his beloved secretary, Traudle Junge, who was about 30 something years his junior has an interesting account of Hitler. She says he really saw himself as a father and acted as such. He was never disrespectful to young women and called her “my child”. He was also overly concerned about his health and for that reason was a vegeterian and forbade smoking inside his personal offices and bunker–Traudle and other women of the Reich were smokers.
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in complete agreement with everything you’ve said. also point out other little things:
1- he was a vegetarian,
2- he took inspiration from Darwin’s work,
3- he called japanese people “honorary whites”.
and that’s all i know.
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i hear a lot about how we live on indian land, and I agree. As soon as i finish college i’m leaving america–back to England. You should join me, and leave for africa. None of us belong here.
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Noneya: I wish you luck. Ready for a prediction? If you were to leave for Africa, you’ll be back very shortly thereafter.
Best,
— xPraetorius
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Great post. It hits the spot in so many ways. And this is just the short-list. It is interesting to see the double talk in the comments. There is still a lot of work to be done. Peace.
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Noneya,
Bye. Good luck.
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Aimé Césaire (1913-2008) said it best:
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Kudos on approaching a challenging topic about double-standards.
The reality appears to be that most people are happy to nurture and maintain double-standards so long as they’re congruent with a favored mythology.
As you point out, if one does wish to dispense with double-standards, then one generally must either contextualize Hitler and his ilk as being non-evil or else contextualize the modern West as being evil (along with most other cultures worldwide from antiquity onwards).
Perhaps even more difficult for people of faith would be having to re-assess the history of the Abrahamic religions, given the genocides contained in the early books of the Bible. For example, Saul is noted as having killed every man, woman, and child of Amalek.
By our modern standards, is there any moral justification for the deliberate killing of children?
To be fair, there is a pragmatic “it was the times” argument to be made (presuming that humanity’s moral enlightenment continues to develop in a forward manner), but that’s also not without controversy, because then the debate comes down to what time period is selected for the frame.
Different groups will understandably choose different periods for their “it was the times” argument.
As contentious as that perspective may be, perhaps in the end it’s still preferable over “radical congruency”.
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It should be interesting to read the weak attempts at defending this double standard by the usual suspects. I can’t say that I would trust anyone who fears people coming together enough to label it radical.
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@ Phoebe
But how sure are we about this?
From various theories I have heard in Germany, AH’s relationships with young women were somewhat more complicated than that. Certainly from what his close companions reported, like Putzi Hanfstaengl, would recall from confidences and observations.
For one, AH had a romantic affair with a young niece of his, Geli Raubal.
He was highly controlling of her, and this distressed Geli.
Also, he would ask her to squat over his head and urinate on his face, among other things, something that that troubled and humiliated her even more.
She was a vulnerable and impressionable young person.
She later committed suicide after their parting.
Some say AH ordered her killing.
The psycho-sexual theories I heard about AH’s vegetarianism was that he became one as an outgrowth of Geli’s death: he could no longer eat meat because it put him in mind of eating Eli’s flesh, and the defecation on his face from their sexual life, was symbolic of meat-eating to him.
The other young women he was involved also committed suicide or attempted it.
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xPraetorius
“Noneya: I wish you luck. Ready for a prediction? If you were to leave for Africa, you’ll be back very shortly thereafter.”
Why do you think so?
Randy
“To be fair, there is a pragmatic “it was the times” argument to be made (presuming that humanity’s moral enlightenment continues to develop in a forward manner), but that’s also not without controversy, because then the debate comes down to what time period is selected for the frame.”
Humanity’s moral progress has its foundation on its material progress. In the past we didn’t have machines and we relied on other humans and later on (domesticated) animals to have the heavy lifting done in order to create civilized landscapes. From that sprung the need of serfdom or slaves. Today we have lots of different machines (powered mainly by fossil fuel energy) and we use them to replace humans in such tasks. If or when this material basis of modern civilization collapses, humans will revert to the old ways of using other humans as slaves.
Just a few thoughts…
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So they’re just proving how violent they are, by trying to make seem normal…all these things were done by whites, while others were creating great civilizations. They were killing each other!
You need history to understand the present cuz WP don’t change, they just got sneakier because of Political Correctness. I mean I’d rather have them call me the n-word to my face instead of smiling (that creepy smile) and saying all kinds of BS behind my back. So I avoid all of them, because they were fed “white superiority” from a young age! Be around them drains my energy cuz I can just feel this weird energy around them, I don’t know if it’s envy and hate at the same time.
Also their obsession with us needs to stop! Asking me all theses personal questions and we just Met! And then there’s the older adults, who you’ve known for a while say some sneaky racist question or remarks, that you just have to be quiet about so you don’t get in trouble.
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So ww are just as evil as him.
1- he was a vegetarian,
2- he took inspiration from Darwin’s work,
3- he called japanese people “honorary whites”.
So do a lot of whites today, they don’t change…
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Great Post! It was very well-thought out. Nice comparison.
This is unfortunately sad, but true much of the time. North American whites (and even some European whites and PoC) can tend to be so moved by the malice experienced by Jews and other oppressed groups during the Holocaust and thereafter, but at the same time ignore the extent of humanity that Blacks worldwide have historically been denied. Oh, the hypocrisy!
Hopefully posts like this will help enlighten a few people, but to be honest, I’m not convinced it will. It’s already been proven a few too many times through Blacks’ experiences, including my own, that Black life is so undervalued by most in society, that it seems this way of thinking will never change.
After all, there’s far too many people (non-Blacks) who are benefiting from the white supremacist system at the expense of Blacks, that why would they change something that’s working so good for them.
Unless it starts to affect more non-Black people on a personal level either first-hand or through loved-ones’ experiences might their mind turn. But even this isn’t a guarantee when many buy into the “anything but racism” rational.
Great blog!
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@ Mrs. Ocean-Graham:
“So ww are just as evil as him.
1- he was a vegetarian,
2- he took inspiration from Darwin’s work,
3- he called japanese people ‘honorary whites’.
So do a lot of whites today, they don’t change…”
————————————————————————
I know! These qualities hardly excuse his atrocities. Puh-lease!
I appreciate animal rights efforts, but I do find it kind of “interesting” how a man who could likely have been vegetarian due to this cause has no trouble killing people though! How messed up is that.
The whole Japanese as “honorary whites” is something I find surprising. Why accept or at least “tolerate” them, but hate the Jews? But then again, do most power-hungry, violence-lusting, lunatics ever behave sensibly in such situations?
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WP have always treated animals better than other races of humans for some strange reason. My mom was watching an episode of Anderson Cooper and they dedicated a good portion of the episode to animals, talking about them like humans. Giving their dog clothes and expensive food when their kids in the world who have neither. I love my dogs, but it’s just weird.
Maybe it’s cuz they’re part Neanderthal, they even share similarities to dogs…they both can have blonde hair and blue/green eyes, their hair is similarly frizzy and they both have thin lips, pale skin–and can turn into a madmen for no apparent reason
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Hmmm…interesting, very interesting indeed.
I’ve watched a documentary on Adolf Hitler in the past and watched him make hate speeches with the most menacing facial expressions, yet I’ve seen him be very gentle and polite to the woman around him in the documentary.
This post has revealed how America can easily make anyone one person,group or race of people evil, while at the same time, resolving themselves of anything, evil.
I admit, i was programmed and white washed into believing Hitler was evil and i still do but at the same time, you have to ask yourself of white people in America, LOOK WHO’S TALKING?
America called, Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez a dictator and tyrant, because he didn’t agree with the United States on oil talks.
Chavez wanted to better his country and have most of the oil money, go to building his 3rd word country’s infrastructure, so it could improve the extreme poverty in that country.
Chavez gave the unites states the finger and as a result, got labeled a dictator.
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Why accept Japanese as Aryans? Germany could not project power into the Pacific, that’s why.
To chear you up news: Diever Does Blackfaceless Othello.
https://www.facebook.com/ShakespearetheaterDiever
The title character is played by Malcolm Davis.
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@ Mrs. Ocean-Graham
Me too! I love my pet, but I would never deny another human’s humanity like that. It is weird.
LOL, who knows perhaps some of their preferential treatment towards animals over non-Whites is due to this closeness. SMH.
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There is no comparison between the Holocaust and American racism. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing for its own sake.
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I don’t see how we can compare segregated neighborhoods with concentration camps, and lynchings of hundreds, which though horrible affected poor whites as much as blacks, with the systematic gassing of millions
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@ teddy1975:
“Why accept Japanese as Aryans? Germany could not project power into the Pacific, that’s why.”
———————————————————————-
Even if he and other Europeans could not dominate the Pacific, it still makes no sense why he’d have this ideology. It’s complete contradictory nonsense, and a tell tale sign of how ludicrous he really was.
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“their preferential treatment towards animals over non-Whites is due to this closeness”
Lol, “their closeness” rotfl!
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[…] to write a quick response to one of the race addicts — a certain Abagond — because his latest blog post is so ludicrous that it cries out for debunking. More importantly, however, his post can serve […]
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@SankofaSista, of course it was nonsense, but it was nonsense which made sense if you take into account that ots purpose was to serve the interests of the “New German Elite”. Hitler was sort of enamored with Islam too. (Muslims could fight the British, where Germmany could not. Egoism explains more than insanity.
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Well teddy1975, I certainly don’t disagree with the Delusions of Grandeur Connoisseur’s ego being a driving force behind his desire for domination. This was of no surprise to me.
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Adolf HItler could not be described as a “consistent” character.
So much about him was not what it seemed to be, if you impose some common dichotomies about good and evil:
He was an animal lover, but a hater of people.
He was an artist, but possessed tremendous vulgarity.
He was a war-monger, but he was not a military man. He dodged the draft.
He believed in the reason and logic of the Aryan peoples, but relied on his “instinct” to get him through.
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Which is what ppl do all the time!
They pet our hair without asking then wonder why we mad…if it was a dog they wouldn’t wonder why is was mad! They talk about dogs like humans, they buy them sweaters and expensive food, they treat hem better than minorities are treated….
You must take in consideration the striking resemblance between whites and dogs (blonde frizzy hair, blue/green eyes, pale skin, thin lips, violent behavior)
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@ Asplund
You’re missing the point. Abagond is not trying to say that Nazi Germany and slavery Jim Crow were the same thing. Both are significant and separate horrors. Abagond is simply taking an acknowledged evil [Hitler] and using the same moral logic to excuse his atrocities as White people often argue on this blog to excuse historic White atrocities. It’s a way os holding up a mirror so they can see the absurdity of their own logical inconsistency.
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Great post abagond, very eye opening. Maybe people will start to get the message.
@Peanut/@Mrs.Ocean-Graham
Agreed.
It’s strange, I’m starting to notice a lot of that. I remember before I was watching a documentary about children with reactive attachment disorder and there was a clip demonstrating what these children were capable of. One clip shown the child choking a baby(It was fictional) and another hurting a puppy(Fictional). And strangely enough, most of the comments cared more about the puppy then the child. Heck, the highest rated comment was sympathetic to the animal than to the baby. I mean I have felt some type of way about the dog, but the baby as well was still on my mind. I think this type of behavior has a lot to do with PETA and effects it’s done over the years. I’m not gonna lie, when I watch a horror movie that involves a animal, even I sometimes am more sympathetic to the pet more than the humans(But then again, it’s horror)
Still in all, I’m STILL disturbed whether human or not, when there is disturbing content. Especially when children, animals and rape are involved.(I can’t do it)
Like someone said before too(Can’t remember who said it) the people that are animal activist are extremely crazy/racist.
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I have 2 pets, a rabbit and a dog, but I don’t love them more than my family members, I would save them from a fire over my pets. I’ve seen the police vids of officers shooting dogs and the ppl were like oh poor dog the policeman needs to be fired. Black person being killed by the police, oh well.
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White people would likely separate themselves from the likes of Hitler the same way they always separate themselves from their cutthroat ancestors or the truth behind their imperialistic conquest and tyranny against POC throughout the world.
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Great post, another fine example of the hypocrisy of our nation’s history. These comments about animals getting less cruelty than humans are eye-opening, I didn’t know Nazis placed animals over humans…just like their American counterparts. Sigh.
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As an animal lover, I see animals as mostly living according to natural instincts; They, along with infants, are nowhere near as calculating, disingenuous or manipulative as human beings past the toddler stage can be and often are.
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“I’ve seen the police vids of officers shooting dogs and the ppl were like oh poor dog the policeman needs to be fired. Black person being killed by the police, oh well.”
Exactly! And this is coming from someone with two dogs, one that thinks its puppy but it’s about my height standing up–honestly that dog could hurt someone! The other is smaller its in between puppy and adult, and when I’d sit down it’d walk over me like it didn’t care. Be damned if I care more about a dog than a human! Dogs don’t even have brains like ours!
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Wow. I know I shouldn’t be surprised but damn…a dog over a baby? I mean I’d care about both, but just…no, that’s wrong!! :((
Isn’t it funny how expensive dog food costs, while ppl are starving?
They buy sweaters for their dogs when they’re humans who only have one shirt and pants…it’s either that WP’s lives are so good that they can afford to treat dogs better than other humans or it’s their Neanderthal genes kicking in! I think it’s both!
1. Other minorities see how white supremacy causes ppl to die (Travyon Martin) and opresses countries along with young children (Asian kids in sweatshops, starving children in africa, Indian slums, black brazilians living under the rule of the minority (Whites) etc)) so for us it’s unbelievable how they could think of dogs better than humans…
2. As I said before whites have unique traits that only them an animals have (green,blue eyes, frizzy hair, pale skin etc)
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Hi Bulanik,
Yes..everything you wrote IS consistent with other accounts written about Hitler’s personal life. That every woman “romantically” involved with Hitler either attempted suicide or was successful with it. Add to the list Unity Mitford, Maria (Mitzi) Reiter (she is believed to be the only woman AH had actual “sex” with), and Inga Ley and of course Eva Braun…
The thing about Traudle though was that she allowed herself to be filmed in a documentary like interview to talk about her interactions with Hitler. Strangely, her accounts of him were that of a father figure who respected women. I suspect that he only allowed her to see the “softer” side of him because she was not in a romantic relationship with him. But, she must’ve known he had “issues”? Most of the women who were involved with him saw him as an intensely dangerous and powerful man whom they thought would make a good lover, but they all ended up in fight for their sanity so to speak.
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“Dogs don’t even have brains like ours!”
– – –
That’s true; they certainly don’t have brains like ours!
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Sorry, Abagond’s post is a pile of incoherent, paranoid blather. And the bilious replies that followed confirm it.
Somehow, the writer is reaching desperately to try to equate ALL European whites with Hitler. That the vast majority of subsequent replies agreed with that ludicrous premise should make all of you deeply ashamed.
I have to admit, it’s an impressive feat to do the wacky intellectual contortions necessary to conclude that white condemnation of Hitler’s white racism only confirms white racism. In the reasoning of the post, whites would be true to themselves ONLY if they embraced Hitler after having decisively defeated him and leveled his country.
What utter nonsense!
Of course, since whites were THE dominant ethnicity after World War II, they didn’t HAVE to condemn Hitler, to expose his depredations to the world, to reject him and all that he stood for. If whites WERE the racist monsters Abagond, and so many of you, seem to think they are, they could have just swept it all under the rug. They WERE the victors, after all, and the victors write the history. They wrote a history that condemns Hitler’s crimes in no uncertain terms.
Sorry, there’s simply no hidden racism that can be read into white condemnation of white racism.
I’ll state an undeniable truth: White people are still the only identifiable group in history ever to undergo a thorough examination of their own treatment of ALL other peoples; to have found themselves and their behavior wanting; and to have made SERIOUS attempts (including trillions and trillions of dollars as well as favorable treatment of job, college and credit applications, free food and countless other considerations) at some kind of restitution. For decades. Believe me, there are PLENTY of OTHER races throughout the world who could stand to undergo the very same self-examination!
Whites didn’t do that because one day they just saw the light. Whites have been embarked on a 200-year quest to rid themselves of any kind of prejudicial thinking whatsoever, to the point where they have trouble condemning even REALLY moronic things: like the various ethnic and gender “studies” departments in academia, for example.
By the way, I’ve NEVER heard ANY white person WHATSOEVER ask for ANY kind of gratitude for having undergone this self-inspection. I’ve been paying close attention for more than 50 years…if it were out there in any strength whatsoever, I’d have seen it. Besides, the assertion that ANYONE would demand gratitude for finding that he had acted poorly in the past is ludicrous on the face of it. One is forced to wonder: does Abagond even READ what he writes?
The problem with whites is NOT that they’re racists, that they automatically disrespect various ethnicities or women or various sexual preferences, but that now they accept at face value TOO MUCH that’s just plain idiotic from just about ANY identifiable group: like unwarranted accusations of racism, for example. And, really, whites are demonstrably the least racist ethnic group on the planet.
This in no way justifies PAST crimes, but the topic at hand is the PRESENT situation, and Abagond’s post is just flat-out way off-base, out in left field, and full of the tortured ratiocination caused by the race addiction so characteristic of today’s grievance industry.
No, black people don’t owe any gratitude to white people, nor do white people ask for any, but blacks DO owe a debt of gratitude — as do we all — to Jesus Christ.
All of you who responded to Abagond’s silly post, inspect YOUR hearts. Are you guilty of hating people — any people — merely because of their ethnicity? You don’t have to answer to me, but you SHOULD answer it to yourself and your families and friends.
So, finally, why on earth DID whites do it, when they simply didn’t have to? Why give up so much, confess to so much, engage in SUCH thoroughgoing self-examination, and, ultimately, self-criticism? Simple: Christianity. The power of white people’s belief in Christian doctrine drove a relentless, and continuing inspection of their lives, of their thinking and of their history. No honest, believing Christian can live his life WITHOUT constantly trying to be a better person toward ALL God’s children. Simple as that.
Best,
— x
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The women he had relations with killed themselves. I guess after copulating with that human excrement, the very epitome of evil, what else is left to do?
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munu aka Bantu: in answer to your question:
Q: “Noneya: I wish you luck. Ready for a prediction? If you were to leave for Africa, you’ll be back very shortly thereafter.” Why do you think so?
A: It’s been tried. Take a look here, for example: http://www.amazon.com/Out-Of-America-Confronts-Africa/dp/0465001882.
Keith Richburg’s disillusionment with Africa upon his return was rather telling.
Best,
— x
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Madison Grant, race scientist, animal lover and evil race scientist wrote, The Passing of The Great Race. Hitler used this book to created his evil plan of genocide. May they both have their places in hell.
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^ peanut
yes Michael vick came to mind, when thinking about all this how dogs lives matter more than black life. and how could I forget about juror b 37 and all her animals.
@ ms.mary
lol.
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The first problem with the post is we consider the quality of a single person and then make the wild leap to white americans in a case of bait and switch. The second problem, is that we are lacking a definition for what is good and evil.
I posit a good and moral society is that one that is free of violence and coercion.
BTW: this strikes me as decidedly dichotomous thinking or good and evil thinking which I thought was white people thinking
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Ok I guess I will throw in my two cent. WWII the greatest generation but before that how many Americans actually sided with Hitler?
I will not talk so long on the rice fields of South Carolina
http://www.sciway.net/hist/chicora/slavery18-2.html
I will not talk about the Native Americans long walk “The Trail of Tears”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
I will not talk about the Rock Spring Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_massacre
I will not talk about the Bisbee Deportation
I will not look back in history because those damn evil eyes come looking back through the ages at me.
However, I will say that one of the big reasons we don’t talk about pre-Pearl Harbor attitudes is because a lot of wealthy Americans agreed with Hitler.
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Caring about people and caring about animals are not mutually exclusive concepts: one can do both. And, there are, of course, loads of misanthropes who have no love for animals either. Many serial killers start out by torturing and killing small animals before moving onto killing people.
It’s Twilight Zone time when caring about the well-being of animals is somehow made to look twisted or downright evil. I myself wonder about people who hate animals. I hope that anyone who feels that way isn’t a pet owner.
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Secretly, a good percent of them still do… not to mention the Europeans. Stalin hated him so much that after the war he basically took his place and carried on his work. Hitler was carefully guided into what he did, just as Stalin was. It all becomes much clearer when you focus, not on what Hitler was trying to destroy, but what he was trying to create with his destruction. Albert Speer knew – A white city with a large domed building at it’s center.
It just looks so similar to… oh well, just a coincidence.
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Thanks KOT for mentioning Charleston, SC.
When I went there, I went to the Slave Mart Museum to hear the the program about its function as the main transfer point for the “cargo” from the Middle Passage and its slave trade marts where this cargo was bought and sold. It is a recommended place for Americans to visit. Its function as one of the main entry points for Africans can be likened to Ellis Island (for Europeans) and Angel Island (for Asians). This would be a great idea for a post.
I do believe that wealthy white Anglo Americans supported Hitler in the beginning, at least before he took over France and tried to take England. However, German-Americans in the USA have become “white” and Jewish Americans have become more or less white (or at least see things with a similar white frame), so as white people, they both can condemn it.
In the USA, I think we might have to wait until we actually do have a multi-racial frame before we, collectively as Americans, can condemn the past atrocities.
But someone enlighten me please. Have Turks become the despised other in Germany?
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Sorry, should have compared Sullivan’s Island to Ellis and Angel.
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I think it would be better to compare one single person to another. You wouldn’t generalize all germans so why do it to all Americans (white americans). I have an idea for you, compare him to our current president and try and find parallels.
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“jefe,
But someone enlighten me please. Have Turks become the despised other in Germany?”
Linda says,
For quite a long time now Jefe…. the Turks have been the low men on the totem pole in Germany for the last 40 years.
When I first moved to Germany, I was warned by my German neighbors to be careful of the areas I walked into because the heavily Turkish sections were “dangerous” — the Turks were “lazy” and “dirty” (sounds familiar doesn’t it)
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@xPraetorius
Your comment seems to assume the negative stereotype of Africa.
Actually, WHITE Portuguese are trying to escape their terrible economy by moving to Mozambique and Angola:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhNyRNLyH9I)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/16/portuguese-exodus-angola-el-dorado
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/15/business/mozambique-portugal-economy
Meanwhile, many educated African professionals who used to work for big corporations, banks, etc., in the West are repatriating to Africa. Here’s a good clip:
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/25/business/africa-repats-business
Of the 10 fastest growing GDPs in the world, 7 of them are in Africa. While Asia was called the new “Tiger”, Africa is now called the “new Lion”:
http://www.ventures-africa.com/2012/08/the-7-fastest-growing-economies-in-africa
http://www.forbes.com/sites/techonomy/2012/11/09/africa-is-rising-fast/
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/economic_studies/whats_driving_africas_growth
Also, the writer spent time in Nairobi from 1991-1994, which skewed his perspective. 2013 Nairobi is not the same: it is as modern and cosmopolitan as any other global city.
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@Linda,
Good point on how the Turks are characterized in Germany.
The Roma people in Hungary and Bulgaria also experience the “African-American” treatment and are negatively stereotyped and discriminated against in much the same way.
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[…] Hitler evil? Was Hitler evil? | Abagond […]
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American companies and Nazi Germany:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/04/nazi-germany-brought-to-you-by/
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@Peanut,
When I was a kid growing up my mother always used to say, “A White person would step on a dying n* gga’s head to get to a puppy in the middle of the street”. She always thought it odd that White’s seemed to value animals over their fellow man, colored man that is. As far as she could tell Whites cared more about a dog than a human being that happened to have black skin. Amazing…
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Looking at this post I’m sad. Even here among what one would expect to be free thinkers and independent minded individuals people repeat Swindlers list type false narratives. Fyi,the Germans were long time victims of Polish aggression and border provocations,they had over 150000 Jews in their ranks including blacks.
“In actual fact 150,000 Jews served with the German armed forces among over a million foreigners including blacks. Yes,even black fought for Hitler.”
http://karanjazplace.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-world-war-2-began.html
YES,BLACKS FOUGHT FOR HITLER! They weren’t cannon fodder of human mine disposal systems as Hollywood would portray if they ever do.
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Kay, interesting information you brought in but let’s put it into perspective:
“In the early-to-mid 1930s, Heinrich Himmler began to build the Waffen-SS, this force was comprised of topnotch and crack Germanic soldiers of racially pure Aryan blood. After 1940, Adolf Hitler decreed that the German armed forces would accept foreign born soldiers.
The reasons for this breakage in racial ideology are simple: as the war went on – the German army and Waffen SS was decreasing, and the Allied armies were increasing – so the Germans needed more men. (so they opened their doors to foreigners, just like the USA — so, need for bodies overrides ideology)
Another reason was that, as the German armies began to occupy more and more countries, the Nazi High Command began to worry about foreign men forming resistance groups, and offered these men an outlet by joining the Nazi war machine. (so, just like America, hidden agenda to further cause despite idealogy)
Made up from various backgrounds, foreign born soldiers hailed from countries such as India, France, Britian, the U.S., Turkey, Russia, Korea, and China, as well as soldiers from the Islamic faith. By the wars end, the supposed “racially-pure” Waffen-SS was comprised of nearly 60% non-Germans, with 25 of the 38 SS divisions comprised of foreigners.
Another non-Germanic unit of the German armed forces was the Legion Freies Arabien (Free Arab Legion). As the German Army entered Africa, it began conscripting Muslim volunteers. The Free Arab Legion was comprised of Libyan and Ethiopian Muslims. Towards the end of the war, this division was folded into the 13th SS Handschar Division, composed of Muslim Bosniaks.
Ultimately, 20,000 Muslim volunteers belonged to the German armed forces, fighting mainly in Africa and Yugoslavia.”
http://mabrgordon.hubpages.com/hub/World-War-II-Oddities-Part-1-Foreign-Born-Nazi-Soldiers
so the Germans used foreign fighters to fight in territories they invaded because they needed bodies and were willing to put aside their ideology in order to further their Agenda.
The Germans still believed in Aryan supremacy and managed to commit genocide both in Europe and Africa,
so why are you bringing up this particular topic in a post that is mocking the fact that white Americans condemn Hitler and Nazi Germany as Evil for the Genocide they committed against the Jews but white Americans seem to have a problem empathizing with the systematic genocide of the African slaves and continued marginalization of African Americans in the US of America —
the Confederate military had black soldiers, even though they were fighting a civil war to keep Slavery alive … Strom Thurmond did everything in power to keep Segregation legal, even though he had a daughter by a black woman…. So, once again, what is your point?
all you’ve proven is that Nazi Germany was just as Hypocritical as the white American government.
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@ xPraetorius
White Americans believe Hitler was evil not simply because he was evil. There are plenty of comparable evils that they do not get so upset about. You know, like the 10 million blacks worked to death in the Caribbean. Or the genocide the Germans carried out in black Africa. Or their own genocide of American Indians.
White Americans think Hitler is evil because, in addition to doing evil:
1. He was an enemy of White American power.
2. He lost the war.
3. His victims were white (enough) in the eyes of White Americans.
Change any one of these conditions and suddenly Hitler would no longer seem so supremely evil:
#2: Had he won the war, the Holocaust would be seen as a good thing, part of the progress of mankind. Eugenics and racism would be conventional wisdom. Nazi Germany would be a shining model for the world.
#3: If the Jews were not seen as white, then the Holocaust would fall into that discount bin of half-forgotten history, like the genocide in Namibia. Because their deaths would not be important enough to matter to the White Americans who write and teach what counts as “history” in the U.S.
#1: If Hitler was not an enemy, then he would be no more evil incarnate than Churchill and Roosevelt – who killed plenty of white civilians and not “just by accident” either. They were no better than the 9/11 hijackers.
Churchill: “History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.”
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If you question the holocaust you can get thrown into prison, but if you question slavery and all the other crimes white people have committed, you’re protected by “free speech”.
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@ xPraetorius
In the post I was not trying to prove that White Americans are racist. Instead I was mocking the moral arguments they use to play down their own racist past and present – by applying the very same arguments to something they clearly see as racist. If I played it a little straighter it would have been a parody.
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@ xPraetorius
I wish it were that simple. Christianity did play an important part in the abolitionist and civil rights movements, but the Christianity of most White Americans is too weak or too fake to be that kind of driving force in history.
Many of them use MORALLY BROKEN reasoning about their history. That is the whole point of this post. So THIS POST could help them in their “continuing inspection of their lives, of their thinking and of their history”. Certainly more so than the self-congratulatory, morally blind propaganda they are taught at school.
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In response to “xPraetorius” I say:
The question of a possible “return” to Africa by people who reside in USA is addressed in another thread.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/back-to-africa/
My take on that is stated there too, and I would suggest you take some time to read it (and follow the links too, please): https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/back-to-africa/#comment-184104
I have a problem with your “prophecy” that people who would try to go to Africa would then surely return, probably “as soon as possible”.
I know, personally, people from various backgrounds (Europe, Latin America, Asia, etc) who went there and remained. I would agree that the majority would probably return, but this is true also for other destinations, not only Africa.
Regarding the opinion of Keith Richburg about Africa, I quite understand it (I haven’t read his book “Out Of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa” but only the comments on Amazon.com) but I would remark the following anyway:
1. Ideas about Africa in the heads of most people outside the continent are heavily shaped by the media (rarely people have interest on the continent – pondering or choosing it for their vacation, for example – and, therefore, they don’t try to sample more information on the continent)
2. What make “news” about Africa are generally the “bad news” (wars, epidemics, corruption cases, etc) and, therefore, you will never got an idea of what Africa is outside such “events”; but there is, surely, a life in Africa, outside such “events” and you will never know what such life is, based only on the media; the whole picture is distorted; the question is not if the “bad news” are true or false, but if they are a representative sample of the whole life in the continent; as I said, the picture you can extract from media news is seriously distorted
3. “Bad news” about Africa sell not only in the daily media (newspapers, television, etc) but also in books, etc.
4. It depends on the individual if he/she would be happy or not in being in Africa or in any other place; human beings are not exactly the same, their needs (material, emotional, spiritual, etc) vary from one person to the other; in general an American citizen who would try to go to Africa nowadays, would join the growing urban middle class in the continent and, probably, live a similar life as theirs
I’ve tried elsewhere to give, what I think is, a more balanced overview of Africa. See:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-broken-africa-stereotype/#comment-156161
If you want to discuss those issues with me, I would suggest you comment at those aforementioned threads and not here, because I think this is a side note (here).
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Actually,Linda if you read my post you’ll see there was never any HOLOCAUST because the while there was a Teutonic pride thing going on,the genocidal hatred of Jews and others was nonexistant-nothing but a Hollywood invention. I’ve seen a black biracial German wrestler wearing the swastika,but IDK if it was the Olympics where Hitler NEVER ignored Jesse,contrary to the MSM. I’ve searched everywhere but can’t find that photo.
As for those black Confederates,they were black slave owners! In fact,the first registered slave owner in Virginia was Angolan,which in itself raises questions which when followed to their logical conclusion totally invalidate what we think we know of the Transatlantic slave trade.
Though I wanted to do a special on slavery here’s something new:
“It is increasingly likely he was one of the losing Black Catholic survivors of the 30 years war that embroiled the whole of Europe in the mid 1600s. (Yes,there were European blacks from as far back as the Neolithic era”
http://karanjazplace.blogspot.com/2013/01/slavery-wasnt-black-thing-2.html
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BW: “White people would likely separate themselves from the likes of Hitler the same way they always separate themselves from their cutthroat ancestors or the truth behind their imperialistic conquest and tyranny against POC throughout the world.”
Reply: What a crashingly stupid post! It’s sad that there are apparently people willing to take such racist nitwittery seriously! Anyway, it’s easily debunked: There is simply no will to empire whatsoever in America. Never has been. This is so blindingly obvious that there is no need even to support the assertion. In fact to the contrary, as the U.S. experience with the Phillipines illustrates nicely. So, while white people are engaged in this supposed effort to bring about “imperialist conquest and tyranny against POC,” these selfsame POC are more than happy to take the billions in foreign aid pouring out of the U.S. for just about any benighted, third world, tinpot hellhole that asks for it.
Best,
— x
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MAB: Let’s look a bit at what you said:
In response to “xPraetorius” I say:
The question of a possible “return” to Africa by people who reside in USA is addressed in another thread.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/back-to-africa/
My take on that is stated there too, and I would suggest you take some time to read it (and follow the links too, please): https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/back-to-africa/#comment-184104
MAB: I have a problem with your “prophecy” that people who would try to go to Africa would then surely return, probably “as soon as possible”.
X: Ok…but there is simply no country in Africa today characterized by any long-term record of a stable government with regular, orderly turnover of leadership, solid respect for human rights and the rule of law, and a solid economy with opportunity for economic advancement. There ARE stable countries, but none with what I just described for, say, 50 years.
MAB: I know, personally, people from various backgrounds (Europe, Latin America, Asia, etc) who went there and remained. I would agree that the majority would probably return, but this is true also for other destinations, not only Africa.
X: Good! But your rare exceptions prove my rule. Despite Obama’s best efforts, there are not — YET — queues of people trying to get out of the U.S.
MAB: Regarding the opinion of Keith Richburg about Africa, I quite understand it (I haven’t read his book “Out Of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa” but only the comments on Amazon.com) but I would remark the following anyway:
1. Ideas about Africa in the heads of most people outside the continent are heavily shaped by the media (rarely people have interest on the continent – pondering or choosing it for their vacation, for example – and, therefore, they don’t try to sample more information on the continent)
X: I point to my statement about “long-term, stable governments.” Few people are adventurous enough to want to vacation in a place where they need to worry for their safety. If that condition were to improve significantly, Africa would, I predict, become an extremely popular vacation destination. As well, possibly, as a destination for immigrants hoping to escape the coming Obama economic meltdown.
MAB: 2. What make “news” about Africa are generally the “bad news” (wars, epidemics, corruption cases, etc) and, therefore, you will never got an idea of what Africa is outside such “events”; but there is, surely, a life in Africa, outside such “events” and you will never know what such life is, based only on the media; the whole picture is distorted; the question is not if the “bad news” are true or false, but if they are a representative sample of the whole life in the continent; as I said, the picture you can extract from media news is seriously distorted.
X: Agreed, but that’s because there’s plenty of bad news to make the press. I take a back seat to no man in my disdain for the distortions of the American media. However, the proportion of bad news to good seems deeply skewed in Africa. And the bad news is not just bad, but horrific. I point to things and people like Amin, Bokassa, Mugabe, Biafra, Sudan, Eritrea, Libya, Egypt, Nasser, Liberia, Doe, Rwanda, Burundi. And that’s all in RECENT memory. Stories of heads-of-state eating children (Bokassa, Amin), arms and legs hacked off (Rwanda), ghastly civil wars (Liberia) in once seemingly calm countries, incomprehensible corruption (everywhere), spontaneous massacres (Nigeria)…This is not just “bad news,” but ghastly news, and, again, all in recent memory.
3. “Bad news” about Africa sell not only in the daily media (newspapers, television, etc) but also in books, etc.
X: Yes and no. However, again, none can deny that Africa simply has way more than its fair share of bad news. To bring out the good news, one DOES have to dig. This is not true in many other countries of the world.
MAB: 4. It depends on the individual if he/she would be happy or not in being in Africa or in any other place; human beings are not exactly the same, their needs (material, emotional, spiritual, etc) vary from one person to the other; in general an American citizen who would try to go to Africa nowadays, would join the growing urban middle class in the continent and, probably, live a similar life as theirs
X: Some of this is certainly correct. However, at this point, it cannot be denied that the person who is most likely to “move to Africa” is the adventurer or the thrill seeker, more than the person from the middle class.
I’ve tried elsewhere to give, what I think is, a more balanced overview of Africa. See:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-broken-africa-stereotype/#comment-156161
If you want to discuss those issues with me, I would suggest you comment at those aforementioned threads and not here, because I think this is a side note (here).
X: Agreed…this is probably a side note, but others seem to have brought it to the forefront. I’ll pick up on something that Abagond said, and let this drop. If you wish to respond, let me know where, and I’ll go there.
Best,
— x
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OMG, I didn’t know people like this still existed in the world. 😮 😮 😮
The Republic of Hawaii was an independent sovereign state (and before that, the Kingdom of Hawaii). President McKinley annexed it for political and military strategic purposes. Later it became a state. If that is not a pure example of empire building, I don’t know what is.
There are many reasons why the Philippines was not retained for statehood, but one of the reasons was due to threat of the uncontrolled increase of “brown” people into the USA. (Of course there were other reasons). But Cuba and Philippines are still not completely of the list of being recolonized and even re-evaluated for statehood.
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Abagond: “@ xPraetorius
In the post I was not trying to prove that White Americans are racist. Instead I was mocking the moral arguments they use to play down their own racist past and present – by applying the very same arguments to something they clearly see as racist. If I played it a little straighter it would have been a parody.”
xPraetorius: Abagond, this is where you make your fundamental mistake. No whites(*) are trying to “play down their own racist past.” For more than fifty years there has been a steady stream of LOUD and unmistakable “mea culpa!” coming from whites from all walks of life. Long past the point where everyone should have “got it.”
If yelling constantly and without cease “I’m sorry!” for more than fifty years constitutes “downplaying it,” then you have a weird definition of “downplaying.”
Yet the more whites have been prostrating themselves in contrition, the more the grievance industry has been saying just how evil and racist white people are. And the more that selfsame grievance industry has come up with tortured and twisted rationalizations — like white condemnation of white racism in the person of Hitler — to support their conclusions.
At SOME point, you have to expect that at least SOME of the ones who have long been aware of and apologizing on behalf of long-dead ancestors are going to say, with REAL justification, “Hey! That dude you’re accusing of downplaying the past, THAT’s not me!”
And, they’re right. It’s not.
You say you’re not trying to “prove that White Americans are racist,” but, really, there’s only one reason to “downplay a racist past,” now isn’t there? The accusation of racism goes hand-in-hand with “trying to downplay the past,” and neatly precedes the “privilege” accusation. It goes like this, and it has been made many times in this blog: “You’re a racist because of your white skin, and because of your white privilege that comes from the labor stolen from blacks 150 years ago!”
The only answer to the absurd and irrelevant accusation of profiteering from the labor of 150 years ago is to say, why stop at 150 years? Why not go back to the founding of the country, when those persecuted for religious purposes were themselves dispossessed? Oops! Why stop there? There is a clear record of the British being dispossessed by the French in 1066. Yeah, so? Why stop there? Why not undo ALL the injustices done to everybody ever? That’s the ONLY fair way to approach it. Of course, at that point everyone would have a grievance against everyone else, and there’d be no point.
So, why would YOU get to decide where to stop? Because it’s in YOUR self-interest? That’s kind of self-obsessed isn’t it? How about all the others that have been dispossessed throughout history? How about THEIR descendants? How about reparations from the ones who dispossessed THEM?
Still and all, whites DID try to make it up to blacks — and to every possible group that could ever find a way to define itself as an aggrieved minority. See, eg: blacks, Hispanics, Japanese internees, gays — sorry: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgendered, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Allies and Pansexual — asians, American indians, endangered species, illegal immigrants, and you name it.
You have to face a simple fact: there is STILL plenty of money, fame, power and prestige to be gained by complaining histrionically to white people about how awful white people are. THAT is what REALLY fuels the still histrionic race grievance industry. See, eg: Obama, Barack, Holder, Eric, et al.
If you look at ALL the communications from ALL the above-mentioned grievance groups, you’ll see they ALL complain about the “WHITE fill-in-the-rest:” male, patriarchy, straight, colonial, imperial, privileged, rich… but the complaints all begin with “white.” Why? It’s the Willie Sutton theory of robbery: that’s where the money is. Want free money? Complain to white people about what lousy, rotten creeps white people are.
People are starting to realize this finally and just starting to tell the complainers a simple truth: (1) if you get an education, (2) speak well, (3) work hard, (4) interact well with others, you can succeed in America. I added a #5: if you don’t cover your body with piercings and tattoos, have a normal haircut (you know what I mean by “normal”) and don’t wear outlandish jewelry — ie: if you present yourself as a serious, focused businessperson ready to get to work, you will succeed in America. And, really, America owes you nothing more than a fair opportunity to succeed.
All your OTHER angst, however, is, and ought to be, YOUR responsibility.
Since I’ve been alive — a tad more than half a century — the above-mentioned groups have been a steady parade of people shouting to white people in particular, “You screwed us!” After some reflection, whites have invariably pretty much shrugged their shoulders and said, “Ummm…ok. Here’s money, or fame, or power or extra rights. Need anything else?” All without firing a shot. Let’s face it, if white people are oppressors, then for the past 50 years and more, they’ve been the sorriest excuse for oppressors the world has ever seen.
All this to the tune of more than 17 trillion (that’s “trillion” with a “tr” and 12 zeroes) dollars in tax money alone, as well as immeasurable power — culminating in the presidency of the United States — prestige, fame and acceptance.
Needless to say, this only encouraged more of the same, to the point where, as today, people like Abagond are finding white racism under every rock, and around every corner.
Why? It still pays.
Oh, it might not pay the ABAGOND’s of the world, but it pays the fabulously wealthy leadership of the grievance industry calling the shots, ie: Sharpton, Jackson, Obama, Holder, Touré, Harris-Perry, etc…
I digressed a bit from your point, Abagond, and I apologize, but your goal was apparently to try to say that you had discerned and hoped to describe the “white state of mind.” That state of mind, so you said, is one that would downplay white racism and the abuses committed by whites because of that racism. That assessment is so far off-base, that it merited a vigorous and wide-ranging rebuttal.
Best,
— x
(*) I will admit to the occasional use of hyperbole to make a point. In this case, as in others where I have made statements that seem absolute, I mean: “No whites whom anyone takes seriously.”
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jefe:
“There is simply no will to empire whatsoever in America. Never has been.
OMG, I didn’t know people like this still existed in the world. 😮 😮 😮
The Republic of Hawaii was an independent sovereign state (and before that, the Kingdom of Hawaii). President McKinley annexed it for political and military strategic purposes. Later it became a state. If that is not a pure example of empire building, I don’t know what is.
There are many reasons why the Philippines was not retained for statehood, but one of the reasons was due to threat of the uncontrolled increase of “brown” people into the USA. (Of course there were other reasons). But Cuba and Philippines are still not completely of the list of being recolonized and even re-evaluated for statehood.”
XPraetorius:
I said two things: (1) there is simply no will to empire in the United States. (2) There never has been.
#1 is simply, self-evidently true. #2, is true as well. Your explanation for why America gave up the Philippines proves my point. The U.S. was NEVER more than a reluctant conqueror, occupier, overseas administrator, imperialist. The annexation of Hawaii was done, as you say, to have a strategic presence in the Pacific. Without the perceived need for that presence, it’s likely that Hawaii would STILL be an independent nation. However, events subsequent to McKinley’s annexation kind of confirmed his reasoning, now didn’t they?
Both my assertions were plainly true. The reason “people like this still exist in the world” is because some of us are still able to view things around us without bending them and twisting them to conform to our ideological predilections.
Best,
— x
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Roissy syndrome is back 😛 😛 😛
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-roissy-syndrome/
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@ xPraetorius
Everything you’ve written is a joke. Whites are the only people to undergo some self examination (more like going through the motions) because they are the only ones to initiate slave trades and genocides on such a scale that would require such initiatives.
And they only did it because of competition; if not for fratricidal conflicts and competition from other whites like, oh I don’t know, the Soviet Union, the Civil Rights Act does not get passed. The whole movement goes nowhere and whites would continue to get away with murdering PoC. The whole thing happened because the US did not like the Soviets pointing out the hypocrisy that whites had no (and still have no) problems engaging in. Like bashing communism but hosing down protesters.
Current events prove this right.
And the fratricide that whites engage in is telling; they’ll do it and the “victors” will make war criminals out of the losers, but as soon as it comes time to carve up the majority of the world (us Brown folks), they’re “brothers” and allies and business partners.
Anyone else notice this shit?
As soon as the wheels of Karma spin, and the Brown (this includes us ‘Blacks’. I’m not colorblind and I know the difference between Black and Brown) and the population starts to change to what it was before whites raped (nearly all of) Earth (and what it would have been had such atrocities not occurred), they’re all “one nation, one race” or whatever their creed is. Suddenly when the people from the lands they rape start appearing in Europe in mass numbers, it’s “white culture is being destroyed”.
Oh, my bad. It isn’t “white people”, but rather “the Jews” who are responsible. I hear they’ve been a really popular scapegoat as of late. Nevermind the money they made for you all.
So no, your bullshit about whites being “christian” and all this “god” nonsense you’ve been pushing is garbage. Wouldn’t have treated humans as chattel if you all were christian, but very few of you are. And you wouldn’t have put their rights in writing (and it really only is in writing) a whole century after their “emancipation” if you were christian. And there would be no “christians” of any other color had whites not destroyed whole cultures and forced it down people’s throats and gunpoint. I dunno. Maybe it’s the effect of praying to whiteJesus. Is that what it is?
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Abagond:
@ xPraetorius — “So, finally, why on earth DID whites do it, when they simply didn’t have to? Why give up so much, confess to so much, engage in SUCH thoroughgoing self-examination, and, ultimately, self-criticism? Simple: Christianity. The power of white people’s belief in Christian doctrine drove a relentless, and continuing inspection of their lives, of their thinking and of their history. No honest, believing Christian can live his life WITHOUT constantly trying to be a better person toward ALL God’s children. Simple as that.”
I wish it were that simple. Christianity did play an important part in the abolitionist and civil rights movements, but the Christianity of most White Americans is too weak or too fake to be that kind of driving force in history.
Many of them use MORALLY BROKEN reasoning about their history. That is the whole point of this post. So THIS POST could help them in their “continuing inspection of their lives, of their thinking and of their history”. Certainly more so than the self-congratulatory, morally blind propaganda they are taught at school.
xPraetorius:
I wonder where you got this strange idea that school children are taught some bizarre curriculum that says how great white people are. Sorry: that’s just not the case. In fact vastly to the contrary. Want to find something positive about white people in school curricula? Be prepared to dig deep…and OUTSIDE of the school curricula. And that’s just PUBLIC schools! The PRIVATE schools — though their total education is vastly superior to that in the public schools — are worse! They’s an enthusiastic source of teaching concerning the moral failings of white people.
Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.
Sadly, I have to agree with you about Christianity — today. However, all that was required was that Christians REPLACE outmoded ideas about white superiority or black inferiority. Christians began that effort centuries ago, and it finally succeeded in toppling the outmoded ideas this past century. The point: Christianity WAS a powerful force for good. It still is — Christ’s message hasn’t changed — but the power of the message has been weakened by constant assault from the secularists on the political left, to the detriment of the entire world.
@Abagond: I’m going to try a slightly different tack with you. You say: “Many of them (white people) use MORALLY BROKEN reasoning about their history.” First of all “Many” doesn’t mean anything. One thousand is “many” in certain contexts (say: wars), while in other contexts one million is “few.” (say: votes in a Presidential election). But, let’s stipulate to your vague statement anyway. Even if it’s true, this morally broken reasoning is not being taught in schools; preached in churches; broadcast over any radio stations with any reach; published in any newspapers with any circulation; used as a platform by any serious candidates for public office; sung in any popular songs; spread about in any medium of any reach whatsoever anywhere. So, again, even if your statement were true of any significant number of white people anywhere — it’s not, but even if it were — it represents less of a problem than slow drivers on the interstate.
Best,
— x
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Mosh:
If you question the holocaust you can get thrown into prison, but if you question slavery and all the other crimes white people have committed, you’re protected by “free speech”.
xPraetorius:
Oh? Please name someone who was thrown into prison for questioning the holocaust. You can go to jail in Germany…Holocaust denial is specifically against the law there, for obvious reasons. But, please cite an example in the United States of someone who went to jail specifically for questioning the holocaust.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
You say whites do not downplay racism – yet you just did. At length.
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@Asplund
“There is no comparison between the Holocaust and American racism. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing for its own sake.”
You think that because you are ignorant about the history of America. Millions of Africans died in the Middle Passage alone–far more than the purported number killed in Hitler’s concentration camps.
Also, the “concentration” camps were just like plantations. They were both places of forced labour and places where many people died.
The only difference is that Jews in Nazi Germany had to deal with harsh conditions for a matter of a few years whereas Africans in America had to deal with it for a few centuries.
So when I think about it, you are absolutely right, there is no comparison, Africans in the Americas have had it far worse!
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@Praetorius
“Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.”
No one tells anyone in any American school “how evil white people were and still are.” Some kids simply look at the facts and come to their own conclusions…
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abagond
@ xPraetorius
Abagond said:
White Americans believe Hitler was evil not simply because he was evil. There are plenty of comparable evils that they do not get so upset about. You know, like the 10 million blacks worked to death in the Caribbean. Or the genocide the Germans carried out in black Africa. Or their own genocide of American Indians.
xPraetorius replied:
Again, stipulate to ALL that you say in the above paragraph, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s to whites’ credit that they condemn Hitler. Should they say, “Hitler’s just fine, because Abagond thinks we haven’t adequately condemned all other examples of crimes against humanity?” obviously not! It is not wrong to condemn evil on its face…regardless of all other considerations. Btw, your “facts” are HUGELY off…there were not, for example 10 million blacks worked to death in the Caribbean. Of course one black person worked to death is too many, but the number 10 million is one of those fictitious numbers invented to make a bad problem seem horrifically worse in order to get attention and/or sympathy. However, it is NOT meant to be scrutinized, because it’s not even close to true. Nor was there any white genocide of American indians. Mistreatment and conquest yes, but no genocide. This is not a justification for ANY ill treatment of ANYONE, but if every there has never been a desire on the part of any American in power to exterminate an entire people (the definition of genocide that I use).
Abagond said:
White Americans think Hitler is evil because, in addition to doing evil:
1. He was an enemy of White American power.
2. He lost the war.
3. His victims were white (enough) in the eyes of White Americans.
xPraetorius replied:
Actually, white people think that Hitler was evil because Hitler was evil. Your little list, above, except for #2, is highly subjective, and, really, pretty far out there. Regarding your #3, The assertion that “His victims were white (enough) in the eyes of White Americans” is SO dumb as to be laughable, if it weren’t so sad. First of all: anti-semitism was never based on skin color. Second: Again, you make the same fatal mistake that the political left just can’t seem to avoid: presuming to tell others what they’re thinking. I’ve said it before, if you were unable to include what you can’t possibly know in your posts, you wouldn’t have anything to write about. Again, you take what just about no one’s EVER said, or written or broadcast or published or disseminated in any way, for GENERATIONS, and declare that it’s a widespread state of mind among white people. Sorry…that’s just wacky.
Abagond said:
Change any one of these conditions and suddenly Hitler would no longer seem so supremely evil:
#2: Had he won the war, the Holocaust would be seen as a good thing, part of the progress of mankind. Eugenics and racism would be conventional wisdom. Nazi Germany would be a shining model for the world.
xPraetorius replied:
Nope. Like just about anything of that magnitude, the Holocaust never would have survived the scrutiny of historians even a few years afterward. Even if Hitler HAD won, he’d never have taken the United States, nor would Japan have. Hence, in the uneasy cold war/peace or whatever following a “Hitler victory,” SOMEONE would have said, “Where are all the Jews?”
Abagond said:
3: If the Jews were not seen as white, then the Holocaust would fall into that discount bin of half-forgotten history, like the genocide in Namibia. Because their deaths would not be important enough to matter to the White Americans who write and teach what counts as “history” in the U.S.
xPraetorius replied:
Wrong again. A simple truth is that any nation’s history is taught in the context of great events that move that particular nation. That’s why the Namibian genocide is not well understood here. Nor is the Armenian genocide, or the Ukrainian genocide or the Hindu genocide, or all the other crimes against humanity that ever happened, but that didn’t directly affect THIS particular nation. Sorry, there’s just too much history out there to teach it all. Nothing whatsoever to do with the color of their skin. Furthermore, Hitler’s machine murdered millions of Catholics as well…surely by your reckoning these were “whiter” than Jews! Yet, this is not taught here either. The point: there’s so much history to teach, that the vast majority has no choice but to be left out in the hopes that SOME will be inspired to research it and record it.
Abagond said:
#1: If Hitler was not an enemy, then he would be no more evil incarnate than Churchill and Roosevelt – who killed plenty of white civilians and not “just by accident” either. They were no better than the 9/11 hijackers.
xPraetorius replied:
Again, you are ignorant of what America is. What you’re saying in your hypothetical about Hitler IS true of how Stalin — one of history’s vilest mass murderers — was treated after the war…and precisely because he was on our side. However, as time goes by, and Stalin’s crimes against humanity have come slowly to light, he is steadily going to his proper place in history’s pantheon of monsters. Your attempt to tie Churchill and Roosevelt — wartime leaders — with the 9/11 hijackers is repugnant. Just because someone SAYS he’s a “freedom fighter” — as scumbags such as Lenin, Hitler, Che, Castro, Mugabe and other tyrants did — doesn’t mean they are.
Play a thought game with me, Abagond. Let’s say that someone said to the 9/11 hijackers and to bin Laden, “Here’s a button you can push that will instantly kill all the people in the United States.” Do you think they would have pushed that button? Of course they would have. In a heartbeat. They were not fighters for a cause, they were homicidal maniacs.
Roosevelt and Churchill had Dresden. Truman had Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But you know what was the difference? Easy. If Germany had surrendered before the firebombing of Dresden, then it never would have happened. And if Japan had surrendered before Hiroshima, THAT never would have happened. Rather big difference.
Abagond: said:
Churchill: “History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it.”
xPraetorius replied:
So said, I’m sure, all of history’s important figures. Some of them were right, some weren’t.
Best,
— x
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Abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
You say whites do not downplay racism – yet you just did. At length.
xPraetorius replied:
At some length I just said that whites don’t downplay their PAST. To the contrary, they’ve spent many decades apologizing and trying to atone for it. Since white racism is PRESENTLY nearly non-existent, it is correct to downplay that.
I WOULD be interested to see whether you will address my assertions that:
• Whites have been on a centuries-long quest to remove any prejudice of any kind from their thinking.
• In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
• That my five “points” for what to do to succeed in America are true for any American, regardless of skin color.
• That if my five points are correct, then there is simply no way to characterize America as a racist country.
Best,
— x
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@Average Bee: I addressed all your “points,” if such they can be called, in previous posts. Therefore, there’s no reason to waste my time with your long, profoundly ignorant screed.
Best,
— x
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resw77 said:
@Praetorius
“Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.”
No one tells anyone in any American school “how evil white people were and still are.” Some kids simply look at the facts and come to their own conclusions…
xPraetorius replied:
I guess you never attended an American school…nor, apparently, do you have children in American schools.
Best,
— x
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@Abagond and @resw77: trafficking in statistics is dangerous business. However, both of you have used some wild numbers to try to make a point. While Wikipedia isn’t always a definitive source, here’s a passage from their entry on the Middle Passage:
“An estimated 15% of the Africans died at sea, with mortality rates considerably higher in Africa itself in the process of capturing and transporting indigenous peoples to the ships. The total number of African deaths directly attributable to the Middle Passage voyage is estimated at up to two million; a broader look at African deaths directly attributable to the institution of slavery from 1500 to 1900 suggests up to four million African deaths.”
@Abagond and @resw77: you both could have done that 30 seconds of basic research before using the 10,000,000 figure (Abagond) and the “more than died in the concentration camps” assertion (resw77).
Look, I love a good exaggeration as much as the next guy, but YOUR exaggerations were out-and-out falsehoods, and you based important points on those falsehoods.
It’s that kind of sloppiness or, dare I say it, laziness, that throws everything else you say into question.
Here’s the link, if you want to take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Passage
I know, I know, I know…I can hear you all already: “He’s trying to downplay the past to make himself seem morally superior.” No. Let’s be clear: the slave trade was unimaginably horrible. The Holocaust was unimaginably horrible. To try to say one was worse than the other? A fool’s game. Don’t do it.
Furthermore, if you — Abagond and resw77 — are basing entire worldviews on incorrect statistics and other falsehoods, then you need to begin a long period of self-examination as to what else you might have got wrong.
Best,
— x
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Jadapoo1
@Peanut,
When I was a kid growing up my mother always used to say, “A White person would step on a dying n* gga’s head to get to a puppy in the middle of the street”. She always thought it odd that White’s seemed to value animals over their fellow man, colored man that is. As far as she could tell Whites cared more about a dog than a human being that happened to have black skin. Amazing…
xPraetorius replies:
@Judapoo1: your mother was wrong.
Best,
— x
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M-m-m-h, sounds like we got a member of the Texas School board here. They ban books by the Holocaust history experts that suggest or even “prove” that the American Holocaust of the Aboriginal population by European-descended peoples to be worse than the Nazi Holocaust, including many prominent Jewish historians. David Stannard and other scholars even go as far to claim that the American one is not only worse than the Nazi holocaust, but is the worst in recorded human history. All the more reason to pretend like it didn’t happen. (Holocaust denial syndrome).
We also got classic Roissy Syndrome, but I’m not going to copy all the examples. No need to. Everybody else found them already.
I know, Bush sent troops to “fight for Iraqi freedom”.
We got a clown here, but they’re starting to get boring. I’m getting sleepy.
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@Abagond: Here’s one more example of your playing fast and loose with statistics, and labels. You said, in your original post:
“It was the times! The West back then was nakedly racist. Racism had the backing of science. The book Hitler called his Bible was bought by millions of Americans: “The Passing of the Great Race” (1916) by Madison Grant, a rich New Yorker. The word genocide was not invented till 1943 and not properly defined till after the war – by the winners to condemn Hitler! We should not judge the past by current morals.”
Specifially: “he book Hitler called his Bible was bought by millions of Americans: “The Passing of the Great Race” (1916) by Madison Grant, a rich New Yorker.”
Again, here’s Wikipedia’s entry on “The Passing of the Great Race.”:
“The Passing of The Great Race; or, The racial basis of European history was an influential book of scientific racism written by the American eugenicist, lawyer, and amateur anthropologist Madison Grant in 1916. The book was largely ignored when it first appeared but went through several revisions and editions; it was never a best seller. The book put forward Grant’s theory of “Nordic superiority” and argued for a strong eugenics program in order to “save the waning ‘Nordics’ from inundation of other race types”. Grant’s propositions to create a strong eugenics program for the “Nordic” population to survive was repudiated by Americans in the 1930s and Europeans after 1945.”
Further, says Wikipedia: “By 1937 the book had sold only 17,000 copies in the U.S. and had not received good reviews. It was rarely cited. Spiro (2009) explains its failure came because its celebration of Nordic triumphs rang hollow against the German atrocities in Belgium, and Americans did not accept its anti-democratic and anti-Christian message.”
Key phrases:
• The book was largely ignored when it first appeared
• it was never a best seller
• By 1937 the book had sold only 17,000 copies in the U.S.
• It was rarely cited.
• Grant’s proposition … was repudiated by Americans in the 1930s and Europeans after 1945.
Here’s the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passing_of_the_Great_Race
Let’s examine a bit more. Wikipedia characterizes the book as one with limited reach, and even then only among a very few pointy-headed numbskulls. Though it DOES say that the book was “influential,” it also says that it was “repudiated by Americans and Europeans” thereafter.
It was HARDLY, as you indicated in YOUR language, some deeply resonating, country-shaping tome that “millions of Americans bought.” It was an obscure little tome that few (only 17,000) bought, and probably fewer read, and certainly far fewer took seriously.
Yet you, Abagond, used this silly little book to be, what you surely hoped, was a convincing point in favor of your argument.
Again, this is the damage that can be done by the fast and loose use of statistics (17,000 does NOT equal “millions of Americans”) and facts that are simply not facts.
Seriously, Abagond, this type of carelessness throws everything you say, write, and finally believe, into question. What ELSE of what you believe is, simply, wrong? Again, it took me — maybe — 30 seconds to find that entry in Wikipedia.
Best,
— x
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jefe said:
Nor was there any white genocide of American indians.
there has never been a desire on the part of any American in power to exterminate an entire people
M-m-m-h, sounds like we got a member of the Texas School board here. They ban books by the Holocaust history experts that suggest or even “prove” that the American Holocaust of the Aboriginal population by European-descended peoples to be worse than the Nazi Holocaust, including many prominent Jewish historians. David Stannard and other scholars even go as far to claim that the American one is not only worse than the Nazi holocaust, but is the worst in recorded human history. All the more reason to pretend like it didn’t happen. (Holocaust denial syndrome).
We also got classic Roissy Syndrome, but I’m not going to copy all the examples. No need to. Everybody else found them already.
Just because someone SAYS he’s a “freedom fighter” … — doesn’t mean they are
I know, Bush sent troops to “fight for Iraqi freedom”.
We got a clown here, but they’re starting to get boring. I’m getting sleepy.
— xPraetorius replied:
@jefe: are you ever going to say anything of substance, or just spout? I quoted actual statistics, with accompanying links, above. I welcome, of course, countervailing statistics or something that indicates that I’m wrong. I’m not “in this to win it.” I’d rather be corrected than continue on in erroneous beliefs. So, instead of the name calling, jefe, why don’t you advance some actual arguments? If you keep calling names, it simply underscores the weakness of everything else you say.
Again, to try to say that one holocaust was “better” or “worse” than another is a fool’s game. Don’t do it.
Best,
— x
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I was not comparing holocausts. Prominent internationally acclaimed historians are. You should let them know that *they* are playing a fool’s game.
Let me finish watching this video
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS43hvarKhI)
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@ xPraetorius
I stand corrected. I went back to my source on the sales of “The Passing of the Great Race”. It did not sell “millions” but “over a million and a half copies”. I updated the post to read “over a million”.
Thanks.
My source is “The History of White People” by Nell Irvin Painter, a historian and a retired Princeton professor. Not the Wikipedia.
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Ok…can Prof. Painter explain the rather wide discrepancy between 17,000 in Wikipedia and 1.5 million? I mean, it’s an 88-1 ratio! And the Wikipedia entry gives more information beyond the mere sales: printings, etc. Sounds pretty authoritative. Doesn’t mean it is, but it sure sounds it.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
Yet you just denied that there was a genocide against American Indians.
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@ xPraetorius
The Wikipedia has tons of errors. You would know that if you tried to seriously research anything.
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@x,
I think the whole point of this post is to mock the fact that some people actually try to do exactly that when arguing about slavery. They claim some type of false comparison that would make slavery seem like a lesser evil. So you are correct in your point, trying to say one was worse than the other is a fool’s game. And by the converse, saying one was less horrible than the other is also a fool’s game. The use of a group that many people consider off- limits was his way of exposing the absurdity of that technique. Just my opinion for what it’s worth.
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Just Wondering.
Does Abagond’s source historian also concur that Hitler modelled the Nazi holocaust after the American one?
I am watching this one now.
“American Holocaust: The Destruction of America’s Native Peoples”
(http://youtu.be/Qra6pcn4AOE)
It’s 1:42 so it will take some time for me to finish.
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@jefe: “Internationally renowned historians” are frequently the WORST offenders for distorting history, and the biggest fools.
I visited your video link to see where one of the approving viewers cited Howard Zinn — certainly a renowned “historian!” — and one of the worst of those who have distorted history. His “A People’s History…” is widely considered such a distortion that it’s basically a fraud.
Bottom line: anyone can make a video for YouTube, and certainly many do. You’ve recalled to my mind the State Farm (or whatever insurance company) commercial in which the girl says something like, “They can’t put it on the internet unless it’s true.” She then walks off with the “French model” whom she met on the internet.
Furthermore, anyone can write a history book. Doesn’t make any of it true.
I’d ask you again to address my points from above. There were four of them; here they are:
• Whites have been on a centuries-long quest to remove any prejudice of any kind from their thinking.
• In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
• That my five “points” for what to do to succeed in America are true for any American, regardless of skin color.
• That if my five points are correct, then there is simply no way to characterize America as a racist country.
No need to engage in dueling sources or erudition one-upsmanship — none of which can ever be resolved — simply: what do YOU think?
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
LMAO. This from the guy who uses the Wikipedia to prove stuff!!
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“At some length I just said that whites don’t downplay their PAST.”
Yet you just denied that there was a genocide against American Indians.
xPraetorius replied:
Yep. Because there wasn’t. Again, I imagine you and I will have to be sure we are talking about the same thing. I suspect that if there had been a REAL effort to WIPE a people off the earth — my definition of genocide — it would have happened, and that people would not be present today. Are you aware of a people that has been wiped out due to an actual government policy targeted at wiping them out? As opposed to simple ethnic assimilation in the normal course of time.
Did whites MISTREAT Indians and dispossess them? Absolutely. Did whites downplay that in the education system? Never in MY lifetime. Do they do it now? No.
Again, I never said that whites downplayed their role in the past…to the contrary, they’ve been loudly trumpeting their guilt to the high heavens for decades! However, you ARE wrong to say that whites are racists today.
As to the “this genocide was worse than that genocide was worse than the other genocide”…again, that’s a fool’s game, not resolvable, and you all can have at it.
Again, I have no desire to “win” here, just to learn. However, you all seem more intent on calling me names and questioning my knowledge, integrity or intelligence. That’s just dumb.
Why don’t you make an actual argument?
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“Bottom line: anyone can make a video for YouTube, and certainly many do. You’ve recalled to my mind the State Farm (or whatever insurance company) commercial in which the girl says something like, “They can’t put it on the internet unless it’s true.” She then walks off with the “French model” whom she met on the internet.”
LMAO. This from the guy who uses the Wikipedia to prove stuff!!
xPraetorius said:
Again: can your prof Painter explain the discrepancy? YOU did the wildly false statistical mess-ups, not me. I just called you on it.
It’s patently clear that Wikipedia is AT LEAST as good a source as YouTube, and it’s one whole HECKUVSA lot better than Zinn…I’ll research Painter later to find out HER credibility. However, you’re batting pretty poorly so far. 🙂
Best,
— x
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We still have Jews here today, so I guess that means that the incident that some refer to as the “Nazi holocaust” was not a real genocide and probably didn’t really happen either.
And the hundreds of Native American tribes which no longer exist and are extinct disappeared entirely due to “ethnic assimilation”.
Andrew Jackson’s policy on Indian Removal had nothing to do with Government policy. That was just him thinking out loud and someone overheard him. Certainly the govt had nothing to do with it.
This is enough history for today. Need to catch some shuteye.
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I just lol’ed.
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If you examine history carefully for information about Hitler’s rise to power you’ll find American links in the chain. Also, the ‘secret society’ that Hitler was a part of “The Thule Society” has equivalences on this side of the Atlantic. What was unique about Hitler was the naked single-mindedness with which he pursued his aims. American warfare and imperialism is a lot more subtle. The Nazis used propaganda masterfully through its architect Goebells but their propaganda was aimed primarily at Germans in order to win their support and loyalty. However, America came to understand the value of propaganda directed at their enemies and so developed the concept of psychological warfare or the PsyOp.
At its core, the aim is to get people to subscribe to a certain model of reality. This is the source of all power for the author of the model. It is analogous to hypnosis. If I convince you that you’re a dog, you become a dog in your own mind and I become the owner of a dog in that ‘reality’. It should be clear that if you realize that you’re not a dog all my power over you instantly vanishes. Likewise, all the horrible aspects of this imbalanced world cannot exist without everyone’s cooperation. Those who believe they benefit willingly commit to it and actively sustain it while those on the outside fight for inclusion. The thing that rarely occurs to anyone is: “This does not have to be”.
Part of the reason this thought does not occur is propaganda. Abagond touched on this in previous articles I’ve seen. Through the history we’re taught we’re told that the present ‘civilization’ is what all of humanity has been working towards. Now that it has been achieved, it will continue into the foreseeable future. It is the best there has ever been and is characterized by such high ideals as freedom, equal opportunity and prosperity. Such an ostentatious display of ‘goodness’ makes it impossible for most people – especially those that ‘benefit’ – to see the contradictions right under their noses.
Thus, for example, the war of aggression in Iraq that started with “Shock and Awe” and has resulted in countless dead civilians and the establishment of torture camps such as Abu Ghraib is called “Operation Iraqi FREEDOM”. Freedom good, war to bring freedom good. “War on Terror”: terror bad, war on terror good. However, since war itself creates terror this propaganda cleverly guarantees a never-ending war – currently over a decade and going – that everyone accepts as necessary. White supremacy is another example of propaganda which, when accepted by people who’re not so classified, it creates in them a desire to become white physically, mentally, and culturally.
But regardless of propaganda, truth is written in the material of the universe. The truth of the genesis of humanity is written in genetic laws. The truth of European colonialism in Africa is written in the official languages of most of its nations today. The truth of slavery is written in the effect it had on the race of people who endured it. The truth of what happened to pre-columbian populations is written in their greatly reduced numbers. From truth you can run but you can’t hide.
And with truth there are consequences. Slavery, in truth a greedy and degenerate institution, bore the bitter fruit of a civil war. Nazism, in truth an evil and genocidal ideology, bore the destruction and division of the nation of its birth. The truth is that if all those things were as good as they were claimed to be in their heydey, they would have been an enduring blessing. Instead, when they reached the point of unsustainability, they became curses. I do believe that earth in the current era is an anomaly because a universe run the way it is run would self-destruct. I suppose that’s why so many tales predict a period of rest and regeneration for this planet whether at the symbolic hands of the messiah or horus.
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@xPraetorius
“…you both could have done that 30 seconds of basic research before using the 10,000,000 figure (Abagond) and the “more than died in the concentration camps” assertion (resw77).”
ANY figure about how many were supposedly killed in the “concentration” camps is also an estimate and a wildly imaginative one at that. There are ZERO records to substantiate such figures..
As to my assertion that more Africans died during the transatlantic slave trade, I say it with certainty b/c it was a MUCH longer period of time (400 years) and estimates of total Africans shipped ranges from 10 M to 100 M, which both are arbitrary figures.
We can at least document 35,000 voyages w/ an average of 500 people, so I’ll say that there were at least 18 Million, double the amount of all the Jews in Europe during the Holocaust (but keep in mind that estimates are as high as 50,000 transatlantic voyages).
Second, there was MUCH more than 15% who died in the voyages based on FIRST-HAND accounts, which generally said that at least 10-15% would
have died of dysentery during the first 2 weeks alone according to eyewitnesses.
The problem is that most voyages were 2-6 months, so obviously more would have died from dysentery and other diseases. Then we would need to factor in those who willingly jumped overboard, who were killed for insurrection, etc. It was documented that the famous Zong ship, for example, had at least 60 people who died of sickness, 132 people were MURDERED for being sick,
and at least 10 committed suicide. That’s over 50% of that ship’s passengers. And that’s just one account out of the 35,000+ voyages.
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• Whites have been on a centuries-long quest to remove any prejudice of any kind from their thinking.
Does that include the people in the Klan, National Front, British National Party and any other Aryan supremacist groups? If so, what do you think they have done to remove prejudice from their way of thinking?
• In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
What about those countries with natural resources – would they agree? I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
• That my five “points” for what to do to succeed in America are true for any American, regardless of skin color.
I have to question whether those PoC who are seen as ‘successful’ in the U.S made their way to the top without encountering any racism or predjudicial treatment and whether this impeded their progress.
• That if my five points are correct, then there is simply no way to characterize America as a racist country.
Why is it that it seems so important to you to say that the U.S isnt racist. Do you acknowledge that racially motivated incidents can/still do occur in some areas – not just here of course but all over the world.
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@kay
“As for those black Confederates,they were black slave owners! “—The black Confederates consisted of not only slaves but free men. Not all of them were free as you are implying.
http://www.usgennet.org/usa/mo/county/stlouis/blackcs.htm
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@ Kay
“when followed to their logical conclusion totally invalidate what we think we know of the Transatlantic slave trade.”—No, it doesn’t. Most people (sadly) believe in the idea that every single black that came to the America’s was a slave. They were not. There was some that came here free.
Now you can quote your blog if you like, but I prefer actual sources and not opinion pieces.
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@ abagond
“The Wikipedia has tons of errors. You would know that if you tried to seriously research anything.”—when I was in college I was told not to ever reference it because people had the freedom to make changes to the information (anyone could).
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@ xPraetorius
“However, you all seem more intent on calling me names and questioning my knowledge, integrity or intelligence. That’s just dumb. “—I find this widely funny seeing as I have read quite a few post of you calling people names etc. By all means go up and read your post if you require some form of evidence, but don’t try to play on hypocrisy. You just get back what you put out is what I was taught, so to whine about it is utterly ridiculous.
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@ xPraetorius
This also goes back to what I have said to you earlier. You are no better than the people you keep claiming to call out. You do the same things as if your sh*t don’t stick. Well honey fyi….I am about to pass out from it.
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stink*
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Omnipresent’s and my exchange:
My original point #1:
• Whites have been on a centuries-long quest to remove any prejudice of any kind from their thinking.
Omnipresent replied:
Does that include the people in the Klan, National Front, British National Party and any other Aryan supremacist groups? If so, what do you think they have done to remove prejudice from their way of thinking?
xPraetorius replies:
No, that doesn’t include any of those groups. Your mention of these fringe groups proves my point. Add up all these groups and multiply that number by 100, and you have less than one tenth of one percent of white people. I noticed that you did NOT mention other stereotypically white groups like, say, Republicans, or Conservatives. By the way, never did I even once say that ALL white racism had disappeared; merely that it was no longer a big problem in America.
My original point #2:
• In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
Omnipresent replied:
What about those countries with natural resources – would they agree? I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
xPraetorius replies:
I don’t know or care in the context of this discussion. This is a discussion of racism in America. If you are trying to tell me that there is some problem with how America has dealt with foreign countries, then, unless the U.S invaded the country in question, your quarrel is with the leadership of those other countries. However, I’m guessing you’re going to find out that that same leadership was trying to get its hands on some of those good green dollars.
My original point:
• That my five “points” for what to do to succeed in America are true for any American, regardless of skin color.
Omnipresent replied:
I have to question whether those PoC who are seen as ‘successful’ in the U.S made their way to the top without encountering any racism or predjudicial treatment and whether this impeded their progress.
xPraetorius replies:
Ok…please feel free to question. By the way, I’m not talking about black people (trying REALLY hard not to use the stupid term: PoC 🙂 ) making it to the top, but simply being able to find a job, and have sufficient financial and social mobility. I KNOW first hand of things called Affirmative Action programs, because I have worked first hand with them across the country for may years. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence — for what that’s worth — of minorities pushed to the front of the jobs line simply because of their minority status. Who isn’t familiar, for example, with the simple phrase: “An equal opportunity, Affirmative Action employer”?
My original point:
• That if my five points are correct, then there is simply no way to characterize America as a racist country.
Omnipresent replied:
Why is it that it seems so important to you to say that the U.S isn’t racist. Do you acknowledge that racially motivated incidents can/still do occur in some areas – not just here of course but all over the world.
xPraetorius replies:
Because a racist America, stuffed to overflowing with systemic, and institutional, and hidden, and endemic, and just-beneath-the-surface, and clandestine, and under-every-rock, and around=every-corner, and disguised, and unconscious, and built-in racism is one of Abagond’s BIG premises. He’s wrong and I don’t mind telling him so.
And when Abagond calls America and whites racist, then he calls ME racist, and, frankly, ‘tween you and me that’s a bit irritating. Of course, the OTHER effect is that closed-minded race-baiters like Abagond lose the chance to be friends with really nice dudes like me…and others. Furthermore, the closed-mindedness of the Abagond’s of the world contributes to bad race relations in the future, which harms this country, the greatest that has ever existed.
Best,
— x
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The irony of this post is that many of the attitudes and arguments nazis used against Jews are currently used by abagond and his readers against whites. Such as Jews were sneaky, cheat, stole their wealth and conspire against others. That’s the same thing Indonesians and Malays said about Chinese, Ugandans said about Indians and Sierra Leones said about Lebanese. Every successful group is hated by those less successful. And those less successful try to scrounge up reasons to justify it.
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“Kay,
Actually,Linda if you read my post you’ll see there was never any HOLOCAUST because the while there was a Teutonic pride thing going on,the genocidal hatred of Jews and others was nonexistant-nothing but a Hollywood invention.”
Linda says,
Kay…… after this comment by you, I almost decided to relegate you to the bin as another “ignorant American” but I will respond to this because if I don’t, this dribble you just wrote will remain lingering on this post without an answer.
Do you read Russian, Kay?…. because if you did, you would read, in the original language that it was first reported in, about how the Jews and others, were being exterminated — you do know that it was the Russians who were the ones to Find the 1st Concentration camps run by the Nazi’s.
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=136
So, unless the Russians were getting paid under the table by Hollywood to fabricate stories, I’m not sure how you came to your delusional conclusion.
and how do you account for the many Polish, Czech, Slovak, and Eastern Europeans who have given their accounts of the War, the slavery many endured working in factories, forced inscription into the Military, and Camps–were they paid by Hollywood also (by way of the Communists that ruled them after the war)
but my original question stands, what is your point by bringing this up?
you haven’t changed any position of this posts intended arguments
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@ Da Jokah
“The irony of this post is that many of the attitudes and arguments nazis used against Jews are currently used by abagond and his readers against whites.”—Then you would not mind quoting where I have used any of these arguments or attitudes towards whites. If you can’t find it then it would invalidate your point right? This would also mean that you have made these same arguments because you are in fact one of his readers.
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sharina
Did I say every single one of his readers? Obviously, I was only talking about his racist black readers. Are you one of his racist black readers?
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@Da Jokah
Nope. What you said was “abagond and his readers.” which does not specify at all, so trying to play on words at this point is a bit tacky.
“Obviously, I was only talking about his racist black readers.”—No, from your statement it was not obvious but if you want to try and play it off then do continue.
“Are you one of his racist black readers?”—I will let you know when I become that, but you can do what others do and label me such in hopes of deluding my credibility.
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I saw this post yesterday and read down through the comments, and at that point xPraetorius’ screed — in which he demonstrates his almost total ignorance of Abagond’s writings — was nearly the last comment, and no one had yet responded to it. Now I’ve just revisited the blog and see the comments have exploded. Sadly there’s a stormfront link, so the neo-nazis are visiting as well.
Abagond’s actual argument makes perfect sense, but this is the sort of thing many, many people will simply not be able (or willing) to understand. Therefore the discussion is descending into nitpicking over every single detail Abagond used, and many others he did not. I can’t read all the arguments here, but from what I’ve skimmed so far, it looks like Abagond’s point has been well and truly buried in dreck. I guess that will make some people happy.
I’m grateful to Jefe for linking to the “Roissy syndrome” though. I tracked down the original Roissy post (it’s on archive.org), and … wow. It’s the most cringe-worthy piece of writing I’ve seen in a long time.
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xPraetorius replies:No, that doesn’t include any of those groups. Your mention of these fringe groups proves my point. Add up all these groups and multiply that number by 100, and you have less than one tenth of one percent of white people. I noticed that you did NOT mention other stereotypically white groups like, say, Republicans, or Conservatives. By the way, never did I even once say that ALL white racism had disappeared; merely that it was no longer a big problem in America.
Omnipresent said: Just because an individual is not an active member of these groups does not mean that they do not aspire to their ideologies. Many people are ‘put off’ being directly associated with them due to their extreme approach. In the U.K for example, a party called UKIP have members which have been revealed as belonging to or being associated with ‘far right’ groups however, when confronted with evidence of this, denial denial denial.
Other than your assertions, what proof do you have that racism is not a big problem in America any longer?
xPraetorius’ original statement In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
Omnipresent replied:What about those countries with natural resources – would they agree? I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
You gave A response but what about this part of the question I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
I KNOW first hand of things called Affirmative Action programs, because I have worked first hand with them across the country for may years. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence — for what that’s worth — of minorities pushed to the front of the jobs line simply because of their minority status. Who isn’t familiar, for example, with the simple phrase: “An equal opportunity, Affirmative Action employer”?
Affirmative Action is supposed to be about addressing imbalance. This does not put incapable people in jobs that they are unable to do just because they are disabled/black/female whatever. Anyway, if racism is not an issue in America, why does it matter if the best people are being chosen for the job but they ‘happen’ to come under a group of people who have governments have classified as having protected characteristics? Or are you saying that people who come under these categories couldnt possibly compete with a white person and be better?
Furthermore, the closed-mindedness of the Abagond’s of the world contributes to bad race relations in the future, which harms this country, the greatest that has ever existed.
Abagond’s is one opinion – just because people agree with some of his posts, does not mean that they are close minded. Some people have had experiences that are negative, this MUST be acknowledged otherwise YOU TOO are in danger of being as ‘close minded’ as you accuse others of being.
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@xPraetorius
“I guess you never attended an American school…nor, apparently, do you have children in American schools.”
Which school is teaching kids that whites are evil? Just one example will suffice.
Teaching that white Americans concertedly did evil things to other groups is just teaching facts. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with history.
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I see xPraetorius has engaged the commenters on this post with his usual immoral arrogance and hypocritical hyper-sensitivity defending, as usual, white Americans tooth and nail using name calling and only one angle of perspective, the white American’s. And as usual, he can’t take what he dishes out. My only prediction is that Prae will end up running with his tail between his legs just like he did in my blog making the thread more about people insulting him and his “intelligence” than the actual subject.
And using Wikipedia as a reliable, objective source is like using the local evening news as a reliable objective source.
Sorry, Abagond’s post is a pile of incoherent, paranoid blather. And the bilious replies that followed confirm it.
Somehow, the writer is reaching desperately to try to equate ALL European whites with Hitler. That the vast majority of subsequent replies agreed with that ludicrous premise should make all of you deeply ashamed.
You really pride yourself on sounding like the all-knowing intellectual who’s always right while the world is always wrong.
I’ve read and re-read the post to see where you would make such a conclusion, and honestly, I didn’t find anything. As usual, I think you’re just trying to pull out any shield to defend any and all forms of whiteness ignoring and even disclaiming that any chaotic events where white Americans and/or Europeans were the cause or that racism was involved.
It’s funny, because for someone who objects to the existence of racism against POC, as you’ve done on my blog, you are quick to conclude that there is racism against whites at virtually every turn.
I have to step out for now. I’ll be back for more.
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Sorry, BW, but you didn’t say anything except that you don’t like me. Oh, well. You don’t know me, so you simply prove that you’re willing to draw conclusions with insufficient information. Of course, we could tell that by reading your blog.
The other stuff in your post is incoherent. What, for example, does this mean: “because for someone who objects to the existence of racism against POC, as you’ve done on my blog, you are quick to conclude that there is racism against whites at virtually every turn”?
Trying to weed through the incoherence of the writing, I’ll take a stab at replying. First: I never said that I found racism against whites at virtually every turn. Never even hinted at it. And, of course, every decent person objects to the existence of racism against ANYONE.
If you’d paid any attention at all, you’d have some inkling that I’ve been telling you and Abagond that there’s NOT racism — of any kind — around every corner in the U.S.
I never said anything like what you’re hinting at, on your blog either…you had an argument with a colleague of mine in which she walked you through conceding my “five points” above. After you admitted to the truth of our points, with an illiterate, obscenities-clogged tirade that was an object lesson in how to be publicly stupid, you began censoring her and me, so I haven’t been on your blog for some time. Your censoring me HARDLY constitutes MY leaving with my tail between my legs. If you’re still bitter about that, then you need to get a life. As for me, I gave up holding a grudge decades ago. That’s called growing up. You should try it.
As I mentionedabove, in your debate with my colleague, and before you began censoring her, you admitted to my four (now five) points. On THIS particular blog, only Omnipresent has tackled the points. He (or she) said, essentially, “Well, there are lots of exceptions,” which neatly makes my point for me. To repeat: The times where white racism rears its ugly head are exceptions. Needless to say — because I’ve said it OVER and OVER and OVER again already — I wholeheartedly agree with Omnipresent that white racism is NOT completely dead. But, a big problem? Sorry, not anymore.
BW: do you know why it’s so easy to “beat” you in these mini-debates? It’s because, first: I’m not competing, and second: you can’t ever be wrong. If you can’t ever be wrong, then you can’t ever be corrected. If you can’t ever be corrected, then you can’t ever learn.
On the other hand, I don’t mind being corrected. I have no desire whatsoever to hold onto an incorrect belief, just to make points on a two-bit blog. You have a number of really dumb beliefs, long ago overtaken by by events. That’s what makes YOU spot racism under every rock, and around every corner. After all, it’s pretty hard to wail, “Racism!” when the President of the United States is a black man. But, since you can’t be wrong, you — and Abagond — have to undergo those fantastical contortions — like discerning white racism in white condemnations of white racism — to “prove” that white racism is alive and well.
And, still and all, BW, only Omnipresent took a shot at my five points. You’ve already admitted to them.
Best,
— x
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Kiwi said:
“LOL You are such a humble Christian. So much humility. I’m sure your friends enjoy the unwarranted self-importance you exude.”
xPraetorius replied: It’s called irony, Kiwi…I thought it was pretty evident because — for the first time on this blog — I used the colloquial: “dude.”
Sorry you didn’t get it.
Best,
— x
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We got a clown here, but they’re starting to get boring. I’m getting sleepy.
It took you that long to get sleepy? I got sleepy after the first two sentences! Been there read that in other posts by buffoons like praetorious. Good ol praetorius! Here to teach the dumb blacks and coloureds history.
Furthermore, if you — Abagond and resw77 — are basing entire worldviews on incorrect statistics and other falsehoods, then you need to begin a long period of self-examination as to what else you might have got wrong.
You should pay to send them on a round the world cruise, all inclusive. If that doesn’t get the introspection going, what will? Better yet why not throw in for Jefe as well?
there has never been a desire on the part of any American in power to exterminate an entire people
Why not? If you are good at something why be modest about it?
Ok…can Prof. Painter explain the rather wide discrepancy between 17,000 in Wikipedia and 1.5 million?
Maybe not but I can. It is Wikipedia, anyone can put anything in there and cite it, I have done it many a time as a hoax and for laughs!
@jefe: “Internationally renowned historians” are frequently the WORST offenders for distorting history, and the biggest fools.
Yes Jefe these historians are all wrong. If they could time travel as I can, they would have first hand information on events. For example, what did Robespierre have for breakfast the morning of his execution? I personally cooked bacon and eggs(done over easy), toast, coffee and juice for him. I proceeded to interview him. Unfortunately, I lost my notes when I was traveling back to the present!
No need to engage in dueling sources or erudition one-upsmanship — none of which can ever be resolved — simply: what do YOU think?
Not fair! First you demand ‘sources’. When they provide some, you demand to know what they think. Are you nuts?
Why don’t you make an actual argument?
Why don’t you stop typing reams of bullsh**? Arguing or debating with you is like f3rting in a paper bag.
On the other hand, I don’t mind being corrected. I have no desire whatsoever to hold onto an incorrect belief, just to make points on a two-bit blog.
I am correcting you! What am I correcting you about? Forgot after reading the first paragraph of your first post. It was down hill from there! But you know what? Who cares?
But, since you can’t be wrong, you — and Abagond — have to undergo those fantastical contortions
No we cannot be wrong! As for contortions, I haven’t had on in years! I’m glad they can!
Lastly, you are not the only one who can type long winded nonsensical posts full of rubbish and unintentional comical highlights. Folks this is the face of tomfoolery and its’ name is Praetorius. If it weren’t for the fact that I am a two fingered typist, I’d type loads more bullsh**, all the while pulling articles and stats out of my bunghole! Good night sir, or is it madam? Thanks to you I now have typers cramp!
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resw77 said:
@xPraetorius
“I guess you never attended an American school…nor, apparently, do you have children in American schools.”
Which school is teaching kids that whites are evil? Just one example will suffice.
Teaching that white Americans concertedly did evil things to other groups is just teaching facts. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with history.
xPraetorius replied:
Ok. Several examples: My grade school, high school and college — all public schools; all my brothers’ grade school, high school and one brother’s college; my daughter’s private school for five years, her high school and her college; My sons three different public schools. The schools in question were in Connecticut and Ohio. In fact, there wasn’t a school that did NOT make sure to underscore the faults of white people throughout history. As well, there wasn’t a school that taught any direct criticism of any other ethnic group. Close enough?
resw77 said:
Teaching that white Americans concertedly did evil things to other groups is just teaching facts. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with history.
xPraetorius said:
Sorry. That is most decidedly NOT history. Teaching that the interactions of white people with other groups were complex and contain much that is good good and bad is history. You seem to think that the only possible replacement for what you mistakenly think is purely positive portrayals of white people in history class MUST be to teach that white people are evil incarnate. Sorry…making history bend to your ideological preferences is NOT history. THAT’s propaganda.
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@Herneith: it is a shame about your various handicaps. Best of luck with that. In the meantime, I noticed that you didn’t address any of my points either. Nor, did you indicate any people that were wiped out by actual American government policy.
I understand that it’s easy to spill bile, but at some point why don’t you try to contribute something that’s not quite so moronic.
Best,
— x
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Ah Jefe you beat me to it. I was writing earlier today about American Empire building but was interrupted. American Empire building came on the bones of the Spain’s waning empirical days.
“Inhabited United States territories have democratic self-government, in local three-branch governments, found respectively in Pago Pago, American Samoa; Hagåtña, Territory of Guam; Saipan, Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands; San Juan, Commonwealth of Puerto Rico; Charlotte Amalie, United States Virgin Islands.[6] Nine uninhabited territories administered by the Interior Department are Baker Island, Howland Island, Jarvis Island, Johnston Atoll, Kingman Reef, Midway Atoll, Navassa Island, Palmyra Atoll, and Wake Island” This information can be found on Wikipedia but also through out the net.
Yes we do have some former unincorporated lands Cuba, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Ryukyu Islands (A part of this is the big territorial dispute between Japan and China in which could lead America into having to take some action.), etc…
Please ask the Okinawans if they want the base on their land. Another issue all together but if you look at where American military bases are through out the world you start to get the picture on why the military needs so much money.
Many of these territories educational systems are so horrible that I wonder if we are trying to under educate them on purpose. (Just me wondering out loud.)
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Also at Jefe, Angel Island having people wait for years is horrible. More like permanent detention center.
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@ King, it is basically the same blueprint through time. Followed to the letter with small changes here and there for taste. As if they can pull back to ancient Greek, and pull back and ask Brunelleschi if he could build their domes.
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@xPraetorius
This is what was said by resw77 “Teaching that white Americans concertedly did evil things to other groups is just teaching facts.” In your mind you saw it as “you seem to think that the only possible replacement for what you mistakenly think is purely positive portrayals of white people in history class MUST be to teach that white people are evil incarnate.”
I don’t think he is saying to you that they are “evil incarnate” but rather they did evil things or bad things.
And before you come at me with some points…You would have to tell me what they are first.
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I understand that it’s easy to spill bile, but at some point why don’t you try to contribute something that’s not quite so moronic.
I type as I find.
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It is a shame that this question was not answered.
“Other than your assertions, what proof do you have that racism is not a big problem in America any longer?”
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@xPraetorius
“Ok. Several examples: My grade school, high school and college”
I’ll be more clear next time. What specific school teaches that all white people were/are evil? Name one. I’d like to call the superintendent to find out why and then alert the media.
“You mistakenly think is purely positive portrayals of white people in history class MUST be to teach that white people are evil incarnate.”
That’s not what I think. Remember, you claimed your schools taught such nonsense, to which I disagree (that’s why I asked you to give a specific example, which you have not done).
My point is that teaching how whites collectively have treated others is simply teaching facts. You’re the one who clearly feels that these were evil deeds.
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Omnipresent
xPraetorius replies:No, that doesn’t include any of those groups. Your mention of these fringe groups proves my point. Add up all these groups and multiply that number by 100, and you have less than one tenth of one percent of white people. I noticed that you did NOT mention other stereotypically white groups like, say, Republicans, or Conservatives. By the way, never did I even once say that ALL white racism had disappeared; merely that it was no longer a big problem in America.
Omnipresent said: Just because an individual is not an active member of these groups does not mean that they do not aspire to their ideologies. Many people are ‘put off’ being directly associated with them due to their extreme approach. In the U.K for example, a party called UKIP have members which have been revealed as belonging to or being associated with ‘far right’ groups however, when confronted with evidence of this, denial denial denial.
xPraetorius said:
Oh, come on, O…no reading other people’s minds. Stop it, please. Next, I’m talking about racism here in America. UKIP is British.
O said:
Other than your assertions, what proof do you have that racism is not a big problem in America any longer?
xPraetorius said:
I offered my five points, and the 17 trillion dollars of transfer payments, and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars in other benefits, and a black President and Attorney General, and hundreds of black Congressmen, mayors, governors, senators, state representatives, state senators and on and on and on and on and on and on…
xPraetorius’ original statement In that effort, they have surrendered vast fortunes, power, fame, prestige and extra rights to pretty much any group that could make the case that they are an aggrieved minority.
Omnipresent replied:What about those countries with natural resources – would they agree? I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
You gave A response but what about this part of the question I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
xPraetorius said:
Thanks for reminding me! I forgot to address the “What’s taking so long?” question! The answer’s easy, though. No population changes states of mind overnight.There wasn’t even telephone communications at the turn of the last century, let alone genuine MASS communication. Furthermore things like television, radio, internet are only recent inventions, with the internet being by far the youngest within most of our memory. Now, ideas cross the country in minutes, but before it took decades to change minds and hearts. The point is, though, that it got done, and for at least 50 years white racism has simply not been a big problem. You may question this, but I’d point you to acceptance of all things gay. The idea, while oldish, exploded onto the scene a VERY short time ago, and it appears that most states will adopt gay marriage laws. All this in a few very short years!
I KNOW first hand of things called Affirmative Action programs, because I have worked first hand with them across the country for may years. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence — for what that’s worth — of minorities pushed to the front of the jobs line simply because of their minority status. Who isn’t familiar, for example, with the simple phrase: “An equal opportunity, Affirmative Action employer”?
Affirmative Action is supposed to be about addressing imbalance. This does not put incapable people in jobs that they are unable to do just because they are disabled/black/female whatever.
xPraetorius said:
Actually it most definitely does put people let prepared to do the job in many, many positions. This is a matter of fact, not debate.
Anyway, if racism is not an issue in America, why does it matter if the best people are being chosen for the job but they ‘happen’ to come under a group of people who have governments have classified as having protected characteristics?
xPraetorius said:
The best people are NOT being chosen…they ARE being chosen because of their race. It does no favors to anyone; eithe rthe employer or the employee.
Or are you saying that people who come under these categories couldnt possibly compete with a white person and be better?
xPraetorius said:
Nope. Never said that.
Furthermore, the closed-mindedness of the Abagond’s of the world contributes to bad race relations in the future, which harms this country, the greatest that has ever existed.
Abagond’s is one opinion – just because people agree with some of his posts, does not mean that they are close minded. Some people have had experiences that are negative, this MUST be acknowledged otherwise YOU TOO are in danger of being as ‘close minded’ as you accuse others of being.
xPraetorius said:
Thanks, Omnipresent. I agree. You and I might differ on this, but I think that your assertions prove my points. You speak of people having “bad experiences.” Ok, but ALL people have bad experiences. Now, however, the bad RACIST experience is the rare exception. And, the big difference is that there is just a whole lot of recourse if it DOES happen.
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
I don’t think I want to get fully into this debate, but if I may, I’d like to expand on resw77’s question a little: you say that the list of schools you provide all teach that “whites are evil.” Could you explain in more detail what you mean by this? To focus on a specific example: if you had a textbook on US history from one of these schools, and you turned to the section on the constitutional convention of 1787, in what terms would it describe the evil white men who created the US Constitution? Would it state openly that Jefferson and the others were evil whites engaged in a nefarious activity for evil white purposes? If not, then how would the text square its categorical view that these whites were all evil with the apparent goodness of the US Constitution?
If you have one of those textbooks at hand and can quote from it, that would be most welcome.
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“Now, however, the bad RACIST experience is the rare exception.”—And what makes you believe these are rare experiences? People tend to believe that such experiences must make national news to be acknowledged as a regular occurrence, but that is a false assumption.
Racist acts in small towns are almost always covered up and swept under the rug.
Now has it gotten better. Yes, but to what extent has racism become better? And to what extent has it been neatly hidden from the public eye?
I found out a month ago that areas still have segregated proms. I know people will scream “that is not racism” and it may not be that way to some, but still.
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Agabond,
Not to sound insulting but that one poster x-whatever must not have a full time job. Otherwise they wouldn’t have the time to type so many long winded messages. I like a good debate but if a person isn’t getting the message they might want to take the high road a let it go. Or, people could stop responding to them. I mean if you feed a stray dog, they tend to hang around.
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@ Anne
1. xPraetorius is a think tank made up of five people. Thus the “x”:
http://praetori.wordpress.com/
2. The more they talk the more they prove the point of the post. It is like Show and Tell.
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xPraetorius
I could indulge in a point-for-point argument with you, but that would only lead to a derailment of the post which you are doing in trying to make it all about you. I won’t go there. Besides, everyone else has done a good job in doing that already.
I will make a note of one thing though. You said:
Trying to weed through the incoherence of the writing, I’ll take a stab at replying. First: I never said that I found racism against whites at virtually every turn. Never even hinted at it. And, of course, every decent person objects to the existence of racism against ANYONE.
If you’d paid any attention at all, you’d have some inkling that I’ve been telling you and Abagond that there’s NOT racism — of any kind — around every corner in the U.S.
And then you said:
The best people are NOT being chosen…they ARE being chosen because of their race. It does no favors to anyone; eithe rthe employer or the employee.
I just caught you in a contradiction of your own words. In one breath you said there isn’t racism, and in another breath you said that there are people chosen because of race which defines racism.
Now, going back to your very first response:
I’ll state an undeniable truth: White people are still the only identifiable group in history ever to undergo a thorough examination of their own treatment of ALL other peoples; to have found themselves and their behavior wanting; and to have made SERIOUS attempts (including trillions and trillions of dollars as well as favorable treatment of job, college and credit applications, free food and countless other considerations) at some kind of restitution. For decades. Believe me, there are PLENTY of OTHER races throughout the world who could stand to undergo the very same self-examination!
Whites didn’t do that because one day they just saw the light. Whites have been embarked on a 200-year quest to rid themselves of any kind of prejudicial thinking whatsoever, to the point where they have trouble condemning even REALLY moronic things: like the various ethnic and gender “studies” departments in academia, for example.
I will say that SOME whites have taken up the task of re-examining their attitudes toward nonwhites. However, I will not and can not agree that most or all whites have taken a self-evaluation of themselves. If that were the case:
1. The mainstream media (a.k.a. the liberal media as you would call it) would have more POC behind and in front of the camera. Those in front of the camera will not be seen in the usual cookie-cutter stereotypes. Their stories and views would be valued as they would any white person’s.
2. There would be more POC hired based on qualifications. Companies would not hire and fire based on – again – racial stereotypes. They would not hire whites with criminal records faster and before they would ever hire blacks without criminal records.
3. Banks and real estate would not screw POC in shady deals to the point where they would, and have, jeopardized the whole economy and almost destroyed the middle class.
4. There would have been a lot more whites participating in civil rights movements not for self-gratification, but because it is truly the right thing to do, because they recognize injustice against a certain group of people. And they wouldn’t praise God or cheer for a mentally fractured, trigger-happy vigilante who shot down an unarmed black boy in the night.
I could go on, but I will not write an entire book for you to disagree with. I will not give you any info when you are perfectly capable, yet too lazy, to do it yourself because your too obsessed with defending whiteness.
Prae, plain and simple, you are part of the problem. Your opposite sense of truth and morality to not only defend whiteness but to discount any form of POC is obvious to anyone. You are just a warped as Hitler himself, it seems.
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@ xPraetorius
So when is it going give back northern Mexico – you know, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, etc?
You rob me and then, in a fit of conscience, give me bus fare. What fine Christian morals!
In the case of Native Americans “restitution” is an obscene way to put it. When is the government going to stand by all those treaties it signed? When is it going to give back (or make restitution for) all the land it took without treaty?
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BW — I thought you weren’t going to try to derail the post. However, of course, you just did. You’ve brought up media hiring, affirmative action, banks and real estate, your inappropriate reading of the minds of whites involved in civil rights…I could go point-by-point with you too, but I’ve had to hold off six or so others as well. I have to pick and choose. One quick thing…my colleague dealt with the mortgage issue with you on your blog — before you chickened out and censored her.
Without a comprehensive analysis of the OTHER topics, there’s just no point in bringing all that up NOW…each could be its own thread. Again, I point to my five points, to 17 trillion dollars, to hundreds of billions of dollars in federal programs, and ALL the other things that I’ve ALREADY said. You keep coming from different directions, irrelevant to this conversation, so we’ll have to hack at them some other time…if, that is, you have the courage EVER to allow a dissenting voice on your blog.
One more quick thing. You quote me here: “The best people are NOT being chosen…they ARE being chosen because of their race. It does no favors to anyone; either the employer or the employee”
Then you said: I just caught you in a contradiction of your own words. In one breath you said there isn’t racism, and in another breath you said that there are people chosen because of race which defines racism.”
My reply: No: what I said defines “Affirmative Action.” If you want to label that as racism, as I think is its proper label, then that’s fine with me.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
This is just like what the Holocaust deniers say – that Hitler did not order the Holocaust. There is no record of it! Half the Jews of Europe and 95% of the Natives of the U.S. just disappear – but, hey, the nakedly racist government in charge did not order it, so, hey, it was not genocide.
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Abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“There is simply no will to empire whatsoever in America. Never has been. This is so blindingly obvious that there is no need even to support the assertion. In fact to the contrary, as the U.S. experience with the Phillipines illustrates nicely. “
So when it is going give back northern Mexico – you know, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, etc?
“White people are still the only identifiable group in history ever to undergo a thorough examination of their own treatment of ALL other peoples; to have found themselves and their behavior wanting; and to have made SERIOUS attempts (including trillions and trillions of dollars as well as favorable treatment of job, college and credit applications, free food and countless other considerations) at some kind of restitution. For decades. Believe me, there are PLENTY of OTHER races throughout the world who could stand to undergo the very same self-examination!”
You rob me and then, in a fit of conscience, give me bus fare. What fine Christian morals!
In the case of Native Americans “restitution” is an obscene way to put it. When is the government going to stand by all those treaties it signed? When is it going to give back (or make restitution for) all the land it took without treaty?
xPraetorius replies:
@Abagond, I have to concede that to you. “Manifest Destiny” WAS a will to expansion. Expansion, empire…probably roughly the same thing. However, once the country reached from the Atlantic to the Pacific, I think it’s fair to say that there was no further will to expand. If there had been, surely Mexico and/or Canada could have been annexed with very little trouble. I DO stand by my OTHER assertion: there IS no will to empire in the U.S. However, my phrase, “Never has been,” was plainly inaccurate, and I accept your correction.
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“Nor, did you indicate any people that were wiped out by actual American government policy.”
This is just like what the Holocaust deniers say – that Hitler did not order the Holocaust. There is not record of it! Half the Jews of Europe and 95% of the Natives of the U.S. just disappear – but, hey, the nakedly racist government in charge did not order it, so, hey, it was not genocide.
xPraetorius replied:
Look: war is war — it’s never pretty, and people get hurt and die. However, Hitler had TWO things, apparently, going on: (1) his effort at European and eventual world conquest, AND (2) the intentional elimination of the Jews, as a SEPARATE effort.
I consider genocide to be, as I mentioned before, the intentional effort to eliminate an entire people. I make no excuses whatsoever for accidental or collateral damage to any peoples, but if it’s not intentional it’s not genocide. Something else terrible, but not genocide.
However, no one has ventured to say that anyone in power in American government ever INTENDED to wipe out any entire people. If we’re going to argue here, we AT LEAST need to agree on what we’re arguing about.
And, again, none of us were spared any of the uncharitable things you’re saying about white people in school.
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
“Now, however, the bad RACIST experience is the rare exception.”—And what makes you believe these are rare experiences? People tend to believe that such experiences must make national news to be acknowledged as a regular occurrence, but that is a false assumption.
Racist acts in small towns are almost always covered up and swept under the rug.
xPraetorius:
Oh? How is it that YOU have the secret knowledge of what is covered up in small towns? Some cover-up!
Sharina:
Now has it gotten better. Yes, but to what extent has racism become better? And to what extent has it been neatly hidden from the public eye?
xPraetorius:
Again: how do YOU know it has got better? Or worse? You just told me that it’s “always covered up in small towns,” yet that you have the secret knowledge of it despite all the cover up. Again, how do YOU or I know what’s hidden from the public eye? All you have here is a bunch of speculation. Anyone can speculate.
Sharina:
I found out a month ago that areas still have segregated proms. I know people will scream “that is not racism” and it may not be that way to some, but still.
xPraetorius:
Not likely. All it takes is for one local newspaper to hear about it, and that would be the end of that. Again, I might have mentioned “recourse” several times?
Best,
— x
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Anne said:
Agabond,
Not to sound insulting but that one poster x-whatever must not have a full time job. Otherwise they wouldn’t have the time to type so many long winded messages. I like a good debate but if a person isn’t getting the message they might want to take the high road a let it go. Or, people could stop responding to them. I mean if you feed a stray dog, they tend to hang around.
XPraetorius:
@Anne: that’s a rather graceless white flag. Why don’t you try to address any of my points? First: I don’t bite. Second: if you don’t call me stupid or a racist or any other obnoxious thing, then I will be completely polite and respectful toward you.
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
“Oh? How is it that YOU have the secret knowledge of what is covered up in small towns? Some cover-up!”—I happen to live in a small town where my uncle was beaten near death and of the two grown men (white men) that did it…they were let go as if nothing happened.
“Again: how do YOU know it has got better? Or worse?”—It is a nice deflection to answer a question with a question but it is not answering my question.
“Anyone can speculate.”—Yep. you have done an amazing job at that.
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@ xPraetorius
all-white proms:
2009: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/whites-only-proms/
The whites who took part did NOT think they were racist. After all, some of their best friends are black!
And it is still going on:
2013: http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/22086349/wilcox-county-white-prom
As to “recourse”, such proms are not against the law – the right of association – just, you know, racist. The racism you say is pretty much dead.
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Frank M.said:
@xPraetorius
I don’t think I want to get fully into this debate, but if I may, I’d like to expand on resw77′s question a little: you say that the list of schools you provide all teach that “whites are evil.” Could you explain in more detail what you mean by this? To focus on a specific example: if you had a textbook on US history from one of these schools, and you turned to the section on the constitutional convention of 1787, in what terms would it describe the evil white men who created the US Constitution? Would it state openly that Jefferson and the others were evil whites engaged in a nefarious activity for evil white purposes? If not, then how would the text square its categorical view that these whites were all evil with the apparent goodness of the US Constitution?
If you have one of those textbooks at hand and can quote from it, that would be most welcome.
My reply:
Hold on a second, Frank M. I’ll run down an get my high school books from more than 30 years ago. Oops. I had to turn them in at the end of the year. Hold on, I’ll run and fetch my college books and notes from more than 20 years ago. Oh…Darn! Not sure I can put my hands on them either! Wait a minute I’ll go get my kids’ high school…uhhh. Maybe not.
Guess you’ll have to settle for my recollection.
Frank: take a look a few posts back. I said that our history classes didn’t spare us any details of historical white perfidy — be it slavery, American conquest, Jim Crow, segregation … nothing. Did they also mention things like the Constitution? Of course. If you peruse the other posts, you will see that I also said that whites were the ONLY ethnicity to receive that scrutiny covering BOTH the good and the bad in history. All other ethnicities and races were given a matter-of-fact or positive treatment in history class. Granted there’s a lot to read in all these posts, but it’s there.
Best,
— x
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resw77 wrote:
@xPraetorius
“Ok. Several examples: My grade school, high school and college”
I’ll be more clear next time. What specific school teaches that all white people were/are evil? Name one. I’d like to call the superintendent to find out why and then alert the media.
“You mistakenly think is purely positive portrayals of white people in history class MUST be to teach that white people are evil incarnate.”
That’s not what I think. Remember, you claimed your schools taught such nonsense, to which I disagree (that’s why I asked you to give a specific example, which you have not done).
My point is that teaching how whites collectively have treated others is simply teaching facts. You’re the one who clearly feels that these were evil deeds.
xPraetorius replies:
Good luck! It’ll be a loooooooong distance call! The principal and superintendant died many years ago! I’m not sure there are any teachers left from my grade school or high school days…did I mention that I’ve been following things for more than 50 years. Why, yes…yes I did.
Again, check through the posts: you’ll see that I told you that we were exposed to the evils that whites did as well as the good. And, again, whites were the only race to receive that values-balanced treatment. All other races, nationalities or ethnicities received either a matter-of-fact or positive treatment.
Best,
— x
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To add to this you have brought about my very point. How does anyone know? What I find odd is you assert that you do. You assert your position as correct because of your 5 points and that everyone else is making bad experiences as the norm when you see it as not just bad experiences.
Who is to say those bad experiences are not normal and are just covered up? You can’t just. Just as Abagond is not all knowing in the minds of white people…you are not all knowing in what is going on in the world over. Unless you want to now assert that you are everywhere at every moment?
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I don’t know about anyone else but my history books never mentioned other people of color. Except black history month
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Sharina said:
It is a shame that this question was not answered.
“Other than your assertions, what proof do you have that racism is not a big problem in America any longer?”
My reply:
** sigh ** My five points — that no one contradicts, by the way — the 17 trillion dollars, the blah, blah, blah that I’ve mentioned many times already…
It DOES get wearying to answer the same question over and over and over again… 🙂
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
If I had actually seen or read your five points then I could actually see where you have or have not answered this question. You are assuming I have an I am guessing they are just not that relevant.
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sharina said:
To add to this you have brought about my very point. How does anyone know? What I find odd is you assert that you do. You assert your position as correct because of your 5 points and that everyone else is making bad experiences as the norm when you see it as not just bad experiences.
Who is to say those bad experiences are not normal and are just covered up? You can’t just. Just as Abagond is not all knowing in the minds of white people…you are not all knowing in what is going on in the world over. Unless you want to now assert that you are everywhere at every moment?
xPraetorius:
We can all speculate all we want about this or that. None of the speculation means anything. Actually, I’m glad you brought this up…Abagond DOES speculate CONSTANTLY about what others, particularly white people, are thinking, feeling, wanting, needing. He makes blanket statements like “Whites think blah..” or “Whites use race as an important part of their identity…” These are, of course, purest speculation; things he couldn’t POSSIBLY know, but he states them as fact, then proceeds to build an argument on this wild speculation. I’ve called him on it numerous times, and he can’t seem to prevent himself. If you read ALL my posts, you will see that if I speculate on what anyone else is thinking or wants or needs or feels, I tell you that I’m speculating right up front. I say things like, “I suspect that so and so thinks this,” or, “It seems that what’s-her-name thinks that…” Immediately I’m saying that IT’S MY IMPRESSION that blah, blah, blah.
Abagond, however STATES AS FACT what others — whose thoughts he can’t possibly read — are thinking.
Back to the point: I DO know the 17 trillion dollars thing — it’s a matter of historical record. I DO know all the other things — the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of federal programs…the welfare, SNAP, WIC, and on and on and on and on…providing “free” stuff disproportionately for minorities. Again, a matter of public record.
All these trillions and trillions of dollars worth of giveaways were NOT provided by RACIST white people. Sorry. They just weren’t. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove the racism. Anecdotal evidence doesn’t do it. Speculation doesn’t do it. Abagond’s point in THIS post is that whites’ condemnation of Hitler’s white racism is further evidence of white racism and perfidy. That doesn’t do it. That particular argument simply doesn’t pass the smell test.
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
@xPraetorius
If I had actually seen or read your five points then I could actually see where you have or have not answered this question. You are assuming I have an I am guessing they are just not that relevant.
xPraetorius:
Here they are, sharina:
If a black person (1) gets an education, (2) speaks well, (3) works hard, (4) gets along well with others, (5) has a normal appearance (not covered with tattoos, clean-cut, no outlandish jewelry), he can succeed in America.
Simple.
A colleague of mine went back and forth with BW, and, I thought, you on BW’s blog a few weeks back. At some point, BW said that, yes, my five points were true. I said, “Then, you can’t possibly conclude that America is a racist country. After all, white people have to do, or learn to do, AT LEAST those five things, THEN find a way to set themselves apart from others.”
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
I don’t know about anyone else but my history books never mentioned other people of color. Except black history month
xPraetorius:
REALLY, sharina?!? No mention of the slaves’ color, no mention of any details about the Jim Crow laws? No mention of any details about segregation?
You ought to sue your teachers for educational malpractice. 🙂
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
” I DO know the 17 trillion dollars thing — it’s a matter of historical record. I DO know all the other things — the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of federal programs…the welfare, SNAP, WIC, and on and on and on and on…providing “free” stuff disproportionately for minorities. Again, a matter of public record. “—If you don’t mind providing sources. Not saying this to be funny but because I don’t know about it. As for the welfare thing I hate to break it to you but people regardless of color us it and frankly some (regardless of color) take advantage of it. People keep claiming how minorities get all this free stuff…well tell me what line I need to get in to get it. I have never been able to get this free stuff people keep going on and on about.
“All these trillions and trillions of dollars worth of giveaways were NOT provided by RACIST white people”—Yeah they were provided by the government out of everyone’s tax money.
“They just weren’t. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove the racism”–Why would it be on me when I never asserted they were racist?
“Abagond’s point in THIS post is that whites’ condemnation of Hitler’s white racism is further evidence of white racism and perfidy”—I thought the point of the post was to point out common contradictions used by white posters to excuse white wrongs.
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xPraetorius
I thought you weren’t going to try to derail the post. However, of course, you just did. You’ve brought up media hiring, affirmative action, banks and real estate, your inappropriate reading of the minds of whites involved in civil rights…I could go point-by-point with you too, but I’ve had to hold off six or so others as well. I have to pick and choose. One quick thing…my colleague dealt with the mortgage issue with you on your blog — before you chickened out and censored her.
I’ve never tried or mistakenly derailed any of Abagond’s post. You, on the other hand, are doing so in a subtle way. You bringing up affirmative action is one example, a subject that has nothing to do with it in the first place. You also have a habit of criticisms with hardly any back-up information. And, you’ve turned this into a “me-vs.-you” argument instead of actually stating why this post is wrong. You only make the case this post is discussing stronger.
Without a comprehensive analysis of the OTHER topics, there’s just no point in bringing all that up NOW…each could be its own thread. Again, I point to my five points, to 17 trillion dollars, to hundreds of billions of dollars in federal programs, and ALL the other things that I’ve ALREADY said. You keep coming from different directions, irrelevant to this conversation, so we’ll have to hack at them some other time…if, that is, you have the courage EVER to allow a dissenting voice on your blog.
They are only irrelevant to you because you only believe in one perspective of the world and since ours is different, you condemn it with juvenile name-calling.
I still stick to my claim that most – not all – whites are not making serious changes to the system their people created and support to this day. Why? Because of the simple reason that they don’t want to lose their hold on the world. Despite, it’s devastating to the world, including other whites, maintaining the system of white supremacy is the main priority.
And there is indeed such a system in play. I gave a few examples of systematic racism at work, but you – as expected – reject them because you say – YOU SAY – they are not valid. Well, who are you – ALL OF YOU – to say that it doesn’t exist? What makes your perspective more valid than anyone else’s who disagrees with you. You sound like a teenage dictator with your responses. In some cases you remind me of Hitler himself.
One more quick thing. You quote me here: “The best people are NOT being chosen…they ARE being chosen because of their race. It does no favors to anyone; either the employer or the employee”
Then you said: I just caught you in a contradiction of your own words. In one breath you said there isn’t racism, and in another breath you said that there are people chosen because of race which defines racism.”
My reply: No: what I said defines “Affirmative Action.” If you want to label that as racism, as I think is its proper label, then that’s fine with me.
Oh come on! My point was that you reject that racism exists and then you imply it in your response.
Tell me something, what is racism to you? What is it since we are so wrong?
And what are those “five points” you keep bringing up and why should we care?
And one thing I’ve noticed is why do you assert that we are branding whites as evil, when there was no mention of it?
All I can gather is that your responses are ways to cover and bury some kind of guilt you’re feeling. The name-calling, the outright defense of white people, the general rants. It doesn’t take an expert to see that you are trying to hide something. My guess is that you’re trying not to feel any sort of guilt because deep down you know there is at least some truth to it.
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sharina
And Prae says I’m derailing. When Prae accuses me of derailing, that’s projection talking.
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Abagond should be flattered that another blogging team devotes so much of their time trying to tear apart your posts. But it is so funny not only how they do not know how to read your post, but to read such a non-sensical statement, eg, “However, you’ll never see or hear him address the following undeniable point: white people have demonstrably been embarked on a quest to banish any prejudice whatsoever from their thinking for more than 150 years. “.
So, I suppose that explains why the KKK only established themselves in an attempt to counteract Reconstruction. Why “separate but equal” and Jim Crow became law. Why the concept of “aliens ineligible for citizenship” was a code for racist classification and exclusion until the 1940s, and used as an excuse to intern over 110,000 Americans during WWII.
And with things like “Blockbusting” and “redlining” they will use prejudice from whites to actually make money from both whites and blacks.
If they have been on a quest for 150 years, they haven’t gotten very far. Half the time they go backwards. Well, maybe Paula Deen is more enlightened than persons were in the ante-bellum period, but we have a ways to go.
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sharina,
His five points are just a variation of the “bootstrap” response. As such, “if black people would just do those things and stop whining about being victims of something I don’t believe in and I don’t think is significant to me, everything will be fine with them.”
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sharina said
@ xPraetorius
” I DO know the 17 trillion dollars thing — it’s a matter of historical record. I DO know all the other things — the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of federal programs…the welfare, SNAP, WIC, and on and on and on and on…providing “free” stuff disproportionately for minorities. Again, a matter of public record. “—If you don’t mind providing sources. Not saying this to be funny but because I don’t know about it. As for the welfare thing I hate to break it to you but people regardless of color us it and frankly some (regardless of color) take advantage of it. People keep claiming how minorities get all this free stuff…well tell me what line I need to get in to get it. I have never been able to get this free stuff people keep going on and on about.
xPraetorius:
I never said that whites don’t get welfare, just that it goes disproportionately to minorities. Blacks make up about 13% of the population and receive about 37% of welfare benefits. Whites make up around 63% of the population and use 40% of welfare. I’m pulling this from recent memory — it’s bedtime and I’m not going on a hunt right now — but those are roughly correct statistics.
“All these trillions and trillions of dollars worth of giveaways were NOT provided by RACIST white people”—Yeah they were provided by the government out of everyone’s tax money.
xPraetorius:
Agreed, but Abagond and others have long been telling me that the power structure — the one giving all these trillions away — is a white racist-dominated power structure.
“They just weren’t. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove the racism”–Why would it be on me when I never asserted they were racist?
xPraetorius:
Ok…to be perfectly fair…the burden is on Abagond. However, you are definitely a sympathetic poster for Abagond, and have said some harsh things to and about me, so you DO have some burden. 🙂
“Abagond’s point in THIS post is that whites’ condemnation of Hitler’s white racism is further evidence of white racism and perfidy”—I thought the point of the post was to point out common contradictions used by white posters to excuse white wrongs.
xPraetorius:
He said he wanted to point out contradictions that whites ostensibly use, “to downplay whites’ racist past and present.” If whites have a racist present, then they are racists now. I have, as you’ve noticed, disputed that assertion.
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
I was on his blog but did not read the 5 points.
Your points seem to center around success in the job field and not other aspects of racism. It also depends solely on what one views as racists (definition and such). Those are great keys to getting a job but that does not mean or bring about the conclusion that America is not racist. I tell you what. The country itself is not racist, but the people are another story.
In school we were taught all the great things that whites accomplished in finding America. As for blacks they were slaves and we learned little here and there about blacks during black history month. Tad bit about Native Americans during thanksgiving. Other than that it was the accomplishments of whites.
There was no Jim crow laws or segregation. Learned that in my free time.
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Brothawolf said:
sharina,
His five points are just a variation of the “bootstrap” response. As such, “if black people would just do those things and stop whining about being victims of something I don’t believe in and I don’t think is significant to me, everything will be fine with them.”
xPraetorius:
No…if black people will simply look, act, speak normally — and, no, it doesn’t mean they have to be WHITE normal, just normal — they will encounter few or no problems with racism in finding a job, finding housing, in succeeding in this country. To the contrary, they will experience mostly favorable treatment.
I’m pretty sure BW knows this.
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
@xPraetorius
I was on his blog but did not read the 5 points.
Your points seem to center around success in the job field and not other aspects of racism. It also depends solely on what one views as racists (definition and such). Those are great keys to getting a job but that does not mean or bring about the conclusion that America is not racist. I tell you what. The country itself is not racist, but the people are another story.
In school we were taught all the great things that whites accomplished in finding America. As for blacks they were slaves and we learned little here and there about blacks during black history month. Tad bit about Native Americans during thanksgiving. Other than that it was the accomplishments of whites.
There was no Jim crow laws or segregation. Learned that in my free time.
xPraetorius:
I’m kind of shocked at this, sharina. I learned all about all the evils that whites had done — including colonialism and imperialism all through school, starting in the early ’60’s… As I might have mentioned I’m more than 50 years old, so this is not a new thing.
Best,
— x
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Wow, I did not expect the comments post to be THIS huge. At first when I saw XPraestorius, I was like “Typical” and carried on my way, but I come back…Jesus! A lot of comments. lol 🙂
It’s really sad, I don’t think xPraetorius really gets it(Not in a condescending way), this is satire/mockumentary that Abagond wrote and he takes it as gold. It’s a sad world we live in, it really is. Some people will get it and sadly the majority will still be here looking around clueless. People believe they “know-it-all” because they read a “Book” , speak “intelligently” and know the “terms”. When you question their program, they are confused/scared and resort to anger due to this “illogical world”…… this place that doesn’t “make sense”. I’ve seen it countless times, I think we’ve all have.
xPreastorius, I really hope atleast you will try someday to read Abagonds blog and understand the message. Maybe then you will understand….or maybe not.
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@xPraetorius
“Ok…to be perfectly fair…the burden is on Abagond. However, you are definitely a sympathetic poster for Abagond, and have said some harsh things to and about me, so you DO have some burden. 🙂 “—In a debate or conversation I am only to provide evidence of things I have made a claim on and nothing more. While I have been harsh it is no more harsh than you have been to other posters. You can be very rude and expect respect in cases where you don’t give it.
“If whites have a racist present, then they are racists now”—There are racist whites. I will not say all of them are but they do exist. To what extent no one will know, so he is not entirely wrong.
Interesting enough I saw a documentary on the new skin head. It is interesting that they went from the thugs that most people know to politicians. I will look for where I saw this as it is quite interesting to see them camouflage into society
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@ xPraetorius
What a joke. You came on here and told ME what my post was about, over my disagreement. I said it was about the broken moral reasoning white people use about their history. You CORRECTED me and told me what it was about. In your latest formulation:
And then had the nerve to fault me for not achieving what YOU decided my post was about. Wow.
Then you derail the post into your precious five points – and have the nerve to tell Brothawolf he is derailing.
You need to get a grip.
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@Brothawolf
Oh so that explains why I scrolled past those 5 points then. LOL
@xPraetorius
“I’m kind of shocked at this, sharina. I learned all about all the evils that whites had done — including colonialism and imperialism all through school, starting in the early ’60′s… As I might have mentioned I’m more than 50 years old, so this is not a new thing.”—Don’t be. I’m not. My daughter had history this year and she learned about the same things I learned in history except my daughter didn’t even learn anything about black history at all.
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@Sharina,
I bet the KKK was just a little tiny footnote insert on one page with a tiny photo of people wearing white hoods, and suggesting that it was just a small number of people at that time who were upset about losing the war and for reconstruction and now they are now all gone.
But, you had several chapters about Manifest Destiny and how the West was “Won” by whites, but it had almost nothing to do with Native Americans, Asians or Blacks.
You will see more space devoted to how friendly white people were to Native Americans, and then they caught the “White Man’s diseases” and then died off, But, they will not tell you that this happened mainly in the USA, not in most of the rest of the Americas where Europeans settled.
The Seminoles were still in Florida when Spain lost Florida to the USA, and then somehow the Seminole wars were wars against the USA. The process of Indian removal was always about wars with the USA.
There is ZIP SQUAT, ZILCH about the ethnic cleansing of Asian-Americans in the 19th and 20th centuries. (Unless of course they mention “model minority”, then they have to mention briefly how they overcame all that).
You will find several chapters in your history book about how glorious the Americans were in fighting Hitler and the Japanese following the Japanese attack. But you would be hard pressed to find anything about the over 110,000 Americans they rounded up and put behind barbed wire.
I didn’t learn the word Jim Crow either in school, only from reading stuff outside school. Only post-90s history textbook start to have anything about segregation, but again, it is only a very small footnote with a photo of White / Colored drinking fountain, and a statement that this was many decades ago and the USA got over it.
Most people I met born after 1970 did not even know that the USA had anti-miscegenation laws, or if they had heard about it, how far back it was.
It’s all been whitewashed.
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@ xPraetorius
Since you call me a race-baiter, let it be noted that YOU came here. I did not go to your blog or that of any white person, much less complain “histrionically” to them.
In fact, I am on record as saying that you cannot prove racism to most white people:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/you-cannot-prove-racism-to-most-white-americans/
But never mind that, you will correct me and tell ME what my post is about.
You pretty much see and believe what you want.
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@ xPraetorius
You say that public schools teach how evil whites are and that whites do not deny or downplay any of it – yet you are here denying the genocide of American Indians.
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@ xPraetorius
Right, Hitler did not send any well-heeled Jews to the gas chambers. And Roosevelt did not send any well-heeled Japanese Americans to prison camps, losing everything they could not carry.
Get stopped and searched by the New York police for no good reason – just angst.
Mass incarceration of black men – just angst.
Police brutality – just angst.
Underfunded schools in black neighbourhoods – just angst.
Shorter life expectancy for blacks – just angst.
Higher infant mortality for blacks – just angst.
Blacks and Asians getting paid less for the same education as whites – just angst.
The black unemployment rate being twice that of whites – just angst.
Bad policing in black neighbourhoods – just angst.
Quotas against Asian Americans at top universities – just angst.
The bamboo ceiling – just angst.
Blacks losing half their wealth in the Great Recession due to shady practices by banks – just angst.
Last hired, first fired – just angst.
The gutting of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 – just angst.
Resegregated schools – just angst.
Racial steering – just angst.
Hate crimes – just angst.
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@ xPraetorius
Please break down that 17 trillion and provide your sources. You have used this figure at least five times. Back it up.
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Very thought provoking read. You are obviously thinking about relevant issues. I have to agree that, ultimately, Hitler was not uniquely evil if you look at historical precedent.
If WWII was won by the Germans you can bet they would have written history (and the narrative) much differently, and we would generally come to view things in a different way (though this seems hard to accept). Instead, the twin axes of the Holocaust and American slavery, which I am not denying the existence or horror of (just the way you would never try to minimize the horrors of the Arab slave trade or Rwandan genocide), have become critical foundations for the narrative. It’s impossible to talk about racial intelligence differences or the status occupied by Jews without being called racist or anti-semetic, so these are simply not mentioned at all any public sphere. On the right, there is inability to control immigration reform (or somehow stop the reconquista) and on the left it is impossible to curtail the 1%/banksters (who happen to be dispropotionately Jewish–not to deny the existence of the Romneys of the world)–higher income taxes, when they come, won’t effectively target the super rich. So the country continues its evolution into what is likely to be an even more unequal, stratified society.
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By my count xPraetorius so far has used seven of the 12 White Excuses. The examples are from memory, so they might not be completely correct, but it will give you the idea. Later when I have time and the thread has calmed down, I will make an updated list complete with the proper quotations. Maybe it will become a post.
#1. Everyone does it – his example of where to draw the line on reparations: people have been screwing each other over since the dawn of time.
#7. Their intentions were good – no will to empire, to exterminate, no government order for genocide.
#8. It was the times! – it was conquest, etc.
#9. We should be grateful – those 17 trillion dollars, how could whites POSSIBLY racist?
#10. Get over it! – in that he rules out past racism in discussion of current reacism, as if the past has no important effect on the present worth talking about.
#11. It is racist to talk about racism – Abagond is an amateur race baiter who keeps racism alive!
#12. You can dismiss what blacks say about racism – something he does to almost every black commenter.
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XPraetorius
I also want to know what you think racism is since you keep saying that it doesn’t exist, especially against minorities and especially the systematic kind.
It’s one thing to make it point that white racism against blacks is not everywhere. It’s another point to bash others if they say different and talk down to them not only denying their experiences as essential in learning but believing in lies that helps keep the system going.
And the way you do it is so bad, that you end up as an example to the subject being discussed. You ARE one of those white people who downplay racism, and you prove it with every response. You have NOT presented anything of substance to prove that racism is not systematic or widespread.
I admit. I’m not good at arguments, but you are terrible. Either you don’t know how much of a horrible example you’re being, or you and your drones are having fun at our expense. I can’t wrap my head at the possibility that you are that obtuse not to know that your “views” are indeed problematic.
An open minded person willing to learn something new would not dive into a blog willingly and shoot his/her mouth off telling us why we’re wrong and in doing so call us names to make him/herself appear intelligent. An intelligent, much less good, person would not make condescending remarks simply because it hints that they are not to the person’s liking.
And much of what we say, you don’t like. It’s not because there is evidence that counters ours. It’s because you have nothing to present that would hold weight. It’s just white racism excusing and justifying itself through you. You sound like a neurotic follower who believes what he wants to believe.
There are tons of references to prove our arguments. But you reject them. Plus, you expect us to present it for you when you’re more than capable of doing so yourself. But – as I’ve seen a hundred times with other trolls who say similar things – you reject them. You call it race baiting, leftist/liberal BS, racist, etc. as if that makes a bit of difference.
You continue to repeat yourself and denounce the institutional realism of white racism based purely on information in which you seem to want to invent info from between the lines. You base it on half-truths and lies. You spend your precious time defending white people whenever any POC blogger discusses white racism. Then, here you come on your white stallion in hopes to save the faux reputation of the entire white race and tell us poor black folks what’s wrong with us all the while trying to feel good while doing it.
It’s not working. You are sadly being the kind of white people, and I assume you’re white, discussed in many articles by many bloggers. You uphold whiteness like a flag and you shamelessly parade around with it.
I’m not right all the time, but you’ve yet to tell me or anyone else what makes you right and we’re wrong. And it’s obvious that no matter what, we can not prove our case to you. Not only are you doing a damn good job of that on your own, but you will reject anything that backs it up.
So, I’ll ask again, what is racism to you?
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@ xPraetorius
I agree with Brothawolf: on this thread you have made yourself into THAT kind of white person, the very kind the post talks about, And, in classic Roissy fashion, you do not even seem to see the irony:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-roissy-syndrome/
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Brothawolf said:
XPraetorius
I also want to know what you think racism is since you keep saying that it doesn’t exist, especially against minorities and especially the systematic kind.
xPraetorius:
BW: don’t be a doofus. I never said racism doesn’t exist, just that white racism is not a big problem anymore. READ what is written before you waste my time and that of others.
It’s one thing to make it point that white racism against blacks is not everywhere. It’s another point to bash others if they say different and talk down to them not only denying their experiences as essential in learning but believing in lies that helps keep the system going.
xPraetorius:
Again, BW, READ. I bashed no one. I bash ideas or assertions. I will say that what someone said is dumb, but never that someone is dumb. I wouldn’t presume to, if I don’t know the person.
And the way you do it is so bad, that you end up as an example to the subject being discussed. You ARE one of those white people who downplay racism, and you prove it with every response. You have NOT presented anything of substance to prove that racism is not systematic or widespread.
xPraetorius:
Uhhhh…yep. I’m downplaying the nearly non-existent white racism of today. Isn’t that kind of the point? I’m saying it…you’re disagreeing?
I admit. I’m not good at arguments, but you are terrible. Either you don’t know how much of a horrible example you’re being, or you and your drones are having fun at our expense. I can’t wrap my head at the possibility that you are that obtuse not to know that your “views” are indeed problematic.
xPraetorius:
If I’m terrible at arguments, it ought to be easy just to squash me. Yet, you all spend your time telling me what a jerk I am. And, again, no one addresses the arguments I offer. Oh, and name a drone of mine, please.
An open minded person willing to learn something new would not dive into a blog willingly and shoot his/her mouth off telling us why we’re wrong and in doing so call us names to make him/herself appear intelligent. An intelligent, much less good, person would not make condescending remarks simply because it hints that they are not to the person’s liking.
xPraetorius:
Uhhhh…BW. Knock-knock! Anybody home? It’s not anything like a common theme in America that white racism has been defeated! Hello! Here you are acting in PERFECT conformity with what the “Civil Rights” establishment has been saying for years, and you accuse ME of not having an open mind!
And much of what we say, you don’t like. It’s not because there is evidence that counters ours. It’s because you have nothing to present that would hold weight. It’s just white racism excusing and justifying itself through you. You sound like a neurotic follower who believes what he wants to believe.
xPraetorius:
I don’t dislike ANYTHING you say. I disagree with it. I dislike your insults, your false accusations of racism — they hurt and sometimes RUIN innocent people — but that’s it. As for evidence: My five points, that everyone seems to agree with, 17 trillion dollars, SNAP, WIC, Black President…Oh, that’s right…I’ve said all that SEVERAL times before.
There are tons of references to prove our arguments. But you reject them. Plus, you expect us to present it for you when you’re more than capable of doing so yourself. But – as I’ve seen a hundred times with other trolls who say similar things – you reject them. You call it race baiting, leftist/liberal BS, racist, etc. as if that makes a bit of difference.
xPraetorius:
I admit you “proved” racism in the past. I had agreed to THAT before we started. However, the closest thing you have to proving CURRENT white racism is (1) exceptions [Omnipresent], (2) vague speculation about covered-up activities in small towns [sharina] and (3) blanket assertions that you’ve proved racism [you, Abagond and the others]. That hardly constitues “references to prove your arguments.”
You continue to repeat yourself and denounce the institutional realism of white racism based purely on information in which you seem to want to invent info from between the lines.
xPretorius:
Whatever that means.
You base it on half-truths and lies.
xPraetorius:
Oh? Where?
You spend your precious time defending white people whenever any POC blogger discusses white racism.
xPraetorius:
If you’ve leveled the toxic accusation of racism at innocent people, then it’s a darned good thing I defend them!
Then, here you come on your white stallion in hopes to save the faux reputation of the entire white race and tell us poor black folks what’s wrong with us all the while trying to feel good while doing it.
xPraetorius:
Now, you’re just whining. If you re-read, you’ll see that I’ve presented a VERY balanced picture of white people, while avoiding any negative characterizations whatsoever about other people or peoples.
It’s not working. You are sadly being the kind of white people, and I assume you’re white, discussed in many articles by many bloggers. You uphold whiteness like a flag and you shamelessly parade around with it.
xPraetorius:
If “it’s not working,” then why is it so much under YOUR skin? And, you’re silliness is showing again. Yeah, BW, I’m upholding whiteness like a flag and shamelessly parading around with it. Okay…you just keep telling yourself that.
I’m not right all the time, but you’ve yet to tell me or anyone else what makes you right and we’re wrong. And it’s obvious that no matter what, we can not prove our case to you. Not only are you doing a damn good job of that on your own, but you will reject anything that backs it up.
xPraetorius:
I believe I’ve said numerous times: the 5 points, 17 trillion dollars, etc., etc., etc…those are evidence that you’re wrong. BW: point to an instance where you were wrong. Just one. I did so in this very thread, when I admitted that I misspoke about the U.S. never having had a “will to empire.” I admitted my error right here in public in front of all you who were insulting me, calling me names and being otherwise abusive.
So, I’ll ask again, what is racism to you?
xPraetorius:
First: that’s the first time you’ve asked it. Second: Racism is something there’s not a lot of among whites. In fact, sometimes very much to our detriment, prejudice of ANY kind is in short supply among white people.
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
I agree with Brothawolf: on this thread you have made yourself into THAT kind of white person, the very kind the post talks about, And, in classic Roissy fashion, you do not even seem to see the irony:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-roissy-syndrome/
xPraetorius:
Whatever.
I read the post. I guess I’m supposed to have a flash of insight at how ridiculous I am or something. However, the post was poorly written, incoherent and murky. Sorry. I wouldn’t show it around in public, if I were you.
Best,
— x
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Classic Roissy style. 😛
Abagond, you couldn’t have captured the attention of a better troll to actually validate all of the points in your post. Bravo!
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Agabond,
I get your point. But still, doesn’t it seem that this person/ think tank is working overtime to get your attention. Like I said, stray dogs….. Or maybe a baby with colic?
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“@ Kay
“when followed to their logical conclusion totally invalidate what we think we know of the Transatlantic slave trade.”—No, it doesn’t. Most people (sadly) believe in the idea that every single black that came to the America’s was a slave. They were not. There was some that came here free.
Now you can quote your blog if you like, but I prefer actual sources and not opinion pieces.”
Umm…a more careful rereading will show I agree with your contention-MOST blacks who arrived were free and its the whites,especially the Irish who suffered slavery.
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@linda
““Kay,
Actually,Linda if you read my post you’ll see there was never any HOLOCAUST because the while there was a Teutonic pride thing going on,the genocidal hatred of Jews and others was nonexistant-nothing but a Hollywood invention.”
Linda says,
Kay…… after this comment by you, I almost decided to relegate you to the bin as another “ignorant American” but I will respond to this because if I don’t, this dribble you just wrote will remain lingering on this post without an answer.
Do you read Russian, Kay?…. because if you did, you would read, in the original language that it was first reported in, about how the Jews and others, were being exterminated — you do know that it was the Russians who were the ones to Find the 1st Concentration camps run by the Nazi’s.
On 24 Jul 1944, the Soviet army marched near Lublin in Poland as their campaign westward continued. They came across the abandoned Majdanek concentration camp, whose prisoners already had been herded off on a death march away from the advancing Soviet troops. Majdanek was burned in attempt to mask its presence as the Germans retreated from the region but the remains of gas chambers were evident.
This was the first major concentration camp discovered by those fighting against Germany, and the evidence found was a brutal confirmation of the rumors of the existence of such camps. In the following weeks, Soviet troops liberated the abandoned camps of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka.
http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=136
So, unless the Russians were getting paid under the table by Hollywood to fabricate stories, I’m not sure how you came to your delusional conclusion.
and how do you account for the many Polish, Czech, Slovak, and Eastern Europeans who have given their accounts of the War, the slavery many endured working in factories, forced inscription into the Military, and Camps–were they paid by Hollywood also (by way of the Communists that ruled them after the war)
but my original question stands, what is your point by bringing this up?
you haven’t changed any position of this posts intended arguments”
I don’t read Russian,and don’t need to to see the transparent lies of Stalins’s Jews. In this case, very likely it was Ilya Ehrenburg,his chief anti German propagandist of the War.
This is the guy who exhorted the Russians to slaughter Germans “The Germans are not human beings. From now on, the word ‘German’ is the most horrible curse. From now on, the word ‘German’ strikes us to the quick. We have nothing to discuss. We will not get excited. We will kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day .:”
http://rense.com/general75/ehr.htm
The same dude who invented the 6 million myth. My point in bringing this up was to illustrate that its a MYTH! Just like the black Transatlantic slave story. Black history is believed by blacks themselves to be mainly the trauma of slavery when this isn’t the case.
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@ xPraetorius
WTF?
Brothawolf says you are condescending – and your rebuttal is to tell a Knock Knock joke? Wow. At this point you are just a straight-up troll.
Plenty of commenters have addressed your points, taken issue with your positions. You airily dismiss them, ignore them or PRETEND THAT PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOU. You are talking to yourself at this point – like those men on the subway who have gone mad.
I am not going to waste any more time on your B.S. Anything that falls into moderation will be instantly deleted.
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@xPraetorius
Regarding the schools that teach that “whites are evil”:
Initially you said that all the schools you and your children attended taught routinely that “whites are evil.” Since then you’ve changed that claim to “these schools taught both the good and bad about whites,” or they used a “values-balanced” approach.
You’re claiming two contradictory things. If you really think you were taught both good and bad about white people in history, that must mean you weren’t taught that whites are evil. Yet initially you listed those schools precisely in response to the question: “Can you name a school that teaches that whites are evil?”
Why alter your initial claim in this way? Or to put it differently — what could possibly have motivated you initially to claim that so many schools actually teach hatred of white people, which is an absurd claim when viewed with an ounce of objectivity?
This is speculation, but I think the answer might be that you’ve developed such a thin skin on matters of race that you instinctively perceive any criticism directed against the history of the race you identify with to be overt hostility. It’s a common phenomenon among whites who spend too much time watching Bill O’Reilly, for example. But of course Fox News is only tapping into the resentment already existing in its audience. As a white person myself, I’ve seen this resentment quite a lot — whites get so angry when reminded of the history and effects of racism that they find it easy to convince themselves the victims of racism are themselves the “true” racists.
But as I say, I’m only speculating. Perhaps your motives in contradicting yourself are completely different.
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“Kay,
Umm…a more careful rereading will show I agree with your contention-MOST blacks who arrived were free and its the whites,especially the Irish who suffered slavery.
The same dude who invented the 6 million myth. My point in bringing this up was to illustrate that its a MYTH! Just like the black Transatlantic slave story. Black history is believed by blacks themselves to be mainly the trauma of slavery when this isn’t the case.”
Linda says,
Kay, kay, kay….
I think I will stick with my original decision to relegate you to the “crazy” bin and ignore you. I was taught to be kind to animals and fools but I don’t do “ignorant with a dash of delusion” people very well and I am sure you aren’t fluffy with 4 paws.
enjoy the rest of this post, you can probably join in with the other space cadet who is making a mockery of word “intellect”
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Next time I’ll just play this board game:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38328/the-looney-bin
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Mr X
You mean you guys and one woman have a think tank and you come to the conclusion that the legacy of slavery is not relevant today? And there is not a lot of racism among whites?
After being raised in the States and making a living there , and then moving to Brazil, I can tell you the relevation that the legacy of slavery is very much affecting the dynamics of our societies in the Americas and Caribean, and racism and cultural supresion and destruction are very much alive today
And there has been and continues to be the dissmisal, burying and destruction of black Afro diasporic cultures
Our American culture has a huge black American cultural foundation contributing to its existance, Im curious if your think tank ackowledges that? And do you all ackowledge that this is not really recognised in our American narrative? Because I definitly see that and know it to be true
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@xPraetorius
“Good luck…The principal and superintend[e]nt died many years ago…”
LOL. Classic. You clearly suggested schools still teach that whites are evil. But still have yet to provide a name and location of any such school. I call BS.
“Again, check through the posts: you’ll see that I told you that we were exposed to the evils that whites did as well as the good.”
I checked the post, and you said schools teach “just how evil white people were and still are.”
Again, no school in America does that. But I can’t help that you feel bad about learning how whites collectively mistreated others. It’s a part of history and an important part, regardless of how it makes you feel.
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B. R.
Mr X
You mean you guys and one woman have a think tank and you come to the conclusion that the legacy of slavery is not relevant today? And there is not a lot of racism among whites?
After being raised in the States and making a living there , and then moving to Brazil, I can tell you the relevation that the legacy of slavery is very much affecting the dynamics of our societies in the Americas and Caribean, and racism and cultural supresion and destruction are very much alive today
And there has been and continues to be the dissmisal, burying and destruction of black Afro diasporic cultures
Our American culture has a huge black American cultural foundation contributing to its existance, Im curious if your think tank ackowledges that? And do you all ackowledge that this is not really recognised in our American narrative? Because I definitly see that and know it to be true
xPraetorius:
Good question, B.R…First: let’s not read things that I DID NOT say into what I’ve written. I never said that the “legacy of slavery is not relevant today.” ALL history is relevant today. I think, however, that it is self-evident that there is not a lot of racism among whites today. I think that — in PARTICULAR — is one very important aspect of the legacy of slavery today.
Why? Simple. Conscience, fueled by Christianity.
I’ll have to take your word on what you said about the problems of blacks in the Caribbean and the rest of the Americas, as you will read below.
As regards topics economic and social, our small but growing think tank has expertise mostly in domestic areas. However, some of our group have extensive expertise in other focused areas, such as: Soviet Union/Russia, Europe (parts). We are conversant in many topics from a philosophical standpoint — eg.: big government tends to lead to disaster anywhere it prevails. We have other topic-focused expertise as well: history (specifically, modern American, Russian/Soviet/Russian, French, British), economics a a discipline, politics/political science, current events, ideology, music (specifically: guitar, jazz, orchestral, other), golf, and some other things. I have to confess, we do not have significant expertise as it pertains to South America. Needless to say, we are always interested in adding to our group.
Of course we acknowledge the huge black American cultural foundation in America. You are wrong, however, to suggest that “it is not recognized in our American narrative.” It wasn’t in the past — and before my time — but it is now, and has been all my life; more than 50 years. The readers and contributors to this blog all ought to acknowledge that.
You said: “And there has been and continues to be the dissmisal, burying and destruction of black Afro diasporic cultures”
Sorry…simply untrue in America. Obviously I cannot speak for South America.
Best,
— x
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Frank M. said:
@xPraetorius
Regarding the schools that teach that “whites are evil”:
Initially you said that all the schools you and your children attended taught routinely that “whites are evil.” Since then you’ve changed that claim to “these schools taught both the good and bad about whites,” or they used a “values-balanced” approach.
You’re claiming two contradictory things. If you really think you were taught both good and bad about white people in history, that must mean you weren’t taught that whites are evil. Yet initially you listed those schools precisely in response to the question: “Can you name a school that teaches that whites are evil?”
Why alter your initial claim in this way? Or to put it differently — what could possibly have motivated you initially to claim that so many schools actually teach hatred of white people, which is an absurd claim when viewed with an ounce of objectivity?
This is speculation, but I think the answer might be that you’ve developed such a thin skin on matters of race that you instinctively perceive any criticism directed against the history of the race you identify with to be overt hostility. It’s a common phenomenon among whites who spend too much time watching Bill O’Reilly, for example. But of course Fox News is only tapping into the resentment already existing in its audience. As a white person myself, I’ve seen this resentment quite a lot — whites get so angry when reminded of the history and effects of racism that they find it easy to convince themselves the victims of racism are themselves the “true” racists.
But as I say, I’m only speculating. Perhaps your motives in contradicting yourself are completely different.
xPraetorius reply:
Frank…calm down. I’ve got like NINE of you coming at me from all different directions. I DID misspeak, and you caught me on it. My definitive statement is that American schools teach an unvarnished perspective on white people. They do NOT gloss over white misdeeds in the realms of slavery, segregation, discrimination. In my experience, and in my research, I’ve found that whites are the ONLY such group to receive that treatment. All other ethnicities have received either a matter-of-fact or positive treatment…some small exceptions, but this is generally the case. I don’t have time to elaborate now…but I’ll be back in the afternoon.
And, trust me, I have a VERY thick skin regarding race. That doesn’t mean that I have to sit still for false or scurrilous accusations of racism, and I won’t.
P.S. the only exchanges that are any fun or interesting at all, are those in which there is spirited disagreement…if, of course, you can get the race-baiters to lay off the nonsensical accusations.
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
” In my experience, and in my research, I’ve found that whites are the ONLY such group to receive that treatment.”
You do realise that whites (assuming you mean Europeans) are the only collective group to go to every inhabitable country, steal (or “conquer” if you wish) land and gold from said inhabitants, burn their cities, books, etc., enslave and/or institute systems of apartheid, etc.
Again, if you feel bad about history, then that’s you’re problem. But no one is unfairly singling out whites as a group as opposed to just teaching basic historical facts.
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@ Kay
It was not most blacks that were free, so maybe you need to up your educational level by starting with reading the link on black confederates.
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@ Kay
Put your reading glasses on hun because I will make this quick. I said and let me quote “There was some that came here free.” I will repeat and by all means play close attention to the some.
“There was some that came here free.” So explain to me where or even how you came up with this ridiculous conclusion. “Umm…a more careful rereading will show I agree with your contention-MOST blacks who arrived were free..”
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Mr X, in my profesion, more than a couple of decades ago, I tried to bring a black person into the job, and, the manegement told us to not bring black people there any more…I heard that , there are some exceptions now,but , the underlying tone is pretty much the same….if this isnt blatent racism, i dont know what is..and i think that kind of attitude is wider spread than we might think
If you do recognise the racism in society, and, good that you did, and, that you all recognise the contribution of black culture, how do you explain the fact that white artists get the bigger shot to make the success, its been constant from the first jazz band to Eminem, please dont say its what the market demands, I find the big budgets and push go to the whiter acts…for sure, in the modeling industry, the standards are embarrasingly white
Great you ackowldege jazz, what is your take on jazz history and racism? And how they teach jazz in school?
Do you think they actualy teach the real roots and more powerful Afro diasporic aproaches? or is it overwelmingly a European aproach, that essentialy loses the original concept of what the art form is?More emphasis on reading and arranging and less on swing (Wynton Marsalis and his crowd being the exception in the educational system)?
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You know B.R. I do believe William is going through hell and back in court for hiring minorities and the job he was working for did not want him to hire them.
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resw77 said:
Precisely, excellent point.
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B. R.
Mr X, in my profesion, more than a couple of decades ago, I tried to bring a black person into the job, and, the manegement told us to not bring black people there any more…I heard that , there are some exceptions now,but , the underlying tone is pretty much the same….if this isnt blatent racism, i dont know what is..and i think that kind of attitude is wider spread than we might think
If you do recognise the racism in society, and, good that you did, and, that you all recognise the contribution of black culture, how do you explain the fact that white artists get the bigger shot to make the success, its been constant from the first jazz band to Eminem, please dont say its what the market demands, I find the big budgets and push go to the whiter acts…for sure, in the modeling industry, the standards are embarrasingly white
Great you ackowldege jazz, what is your take on jazz history and racism? And how they teach jazz in school?
Do you think they actualy teach the real roots and more powerful Afro diasporic aproaches? or is it overwelmingly a European aproach, that essentialy loses the original concept of what the art form is?More emphasis on reading and arranging and less on swing (Wynton Marsalis and his crowd being the exception in the educational system)?
xPraetorius:
@B.R. You’ve gone WAY far afield with this post! I DO love to talk about jazz, specifically in the context of jazz guitar. I’m actually a very good (yes, being immodest here) jazz guitarist. My style is, however, MUCH more niche than just “jazz” itself. I’m more like a gypsy jazz guitarist. If you want a hint of my style, you can find Stochelo Rosenberg, Angelo DeBarre or Joscho Stephan on YouTube for reference. “Jazz” is a big umbrella, and there is certainly debate as to what constitutes “real” jazz between the purists and the inclusivists and the exclusivists and the free jazz people, and the fusion people and the gypsies and the swingsters and the Ellington-ites, and all the rest. I don’t care about any of that. I play music, and I play well, so I get GIGANTIC satisfaction from it. The “jazz” label is the one I find most closely works for my style, and when I go to listen to music, I very frequently find myself listening to recordings labeled “jazz.” There.
I have very little actual knowledge of the music industry itself — it’s just a hobby for me, and I play only locally. If you’re in Connecticut, you might have seen friends of mine and me out and about. Bottom line: I don’t explain the “fact that white artists get the bigger shot to make the success.” I don’t even know whether that’s a fact, fiction, a trend, a blip, long-term, short-term, your opinion or what.
I have no idea how they teach jazz in school…I’d guess that would come from the individual teacher, whose expertise would drive that. I suspect that if you were to insist that if you were to insist that there is only one BEST way to teach jazz in school, as you seem to imply, then you’d get an argument from people more informed than I.
One fatal mistake I can tell you that you’re making right from the get-go: the only color the business side of the industry recognizes is green. No matter the performer’s appearance — one of the few industries where this is ACTUALLY the case — if you represent the opportunity for a lot of green, you’ll get jobs, publicity, tours, recording deals, rich. If not, it won’t happen for you unless YOU make it happen, no matter WHO you are.
As regards your anecdote at top — about bringing a black person on at your place of employment — for each anecdote like that, there are probably many more about people being told to hire more minorities in order to immunize their organization from the threat of bad publicity at the hands of the race-baiters. I know innumerable such stories myself. Playing dueling anecdotes doesn’t typically resolve much outside of the larger context.
See, B.R.? I DO like to talk about jazz, but I know where my limits are in any such discussion. When I write about it, I tend to focus on my experiences with the guitar — sometimes certain guitars — while playing music.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
I think you are really good at playing on words but I think when it comes down to it…you are doing nothing more than that. You have asserted that you know with certainty the minds of every white person, yet have jumped on Abagond for making the claim of the mindset of most. Just because you are white does not make you every white person.
You stated this “No whites(*) are trying to “play down their own racist past.”—Passed it off as a certainty and then lied to me by saying “If you read ALL my posts, you will see that if I speculate on what anyone else is thinking or wants or needs or feels, I tell you that I’m speculating right up front. I say things like, “I suspect that so and so thinks this,” or, “It seems that what’s-her-name thinks that…” Immediately I’m saying that IT’S MY IMPRESSION that blah, blah, blah.”
So in this statement I would like to ask where is the “I suspect that so and so thinks this, etc.”?
While this is one example I have ran across quite a few, yet it continuously amazes me that you can be a hypocrite and claim not to be. Now I know you will come with some excuse and clean up what you mean, but do you not see something in the fact that you have been caught in contradictions quite a few times now?
I respect that you have an opinion, but the repeated hypocrisy is ridiculous.
@ everyone
I have found that when you call someone’s post stupid you are in essence calling them stupid on the sly. It’s a play on words.
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I think this is more of a blogger rivalry than an exchange of ideas or telling someone they are wrong.
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resw77 said:
@xPraetorius
” In my experience, and in my research, I’ve found that whites are the ONLY such group to receive that treatment.”
You do realise that whites (assuming you mean Europeans) are the only collective group to go to every inhabitable country, steal (or “conquer” if you wish) land and gold from said inhabitants, burn their cities, books, etc., enslave and/or institute systems of apartheid, etc.
Again, if you feel bad about history, then that’s you’re problem. But no one is unfairly singling out whites as a group as opposed to just teaching basic historical facts.
xPraetorius replied:
resw77, resw77, resw77…stop, please, reading things that I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT say into what I wrote. I NEVER said whites received any UNFAIR treatment at the hands of the education system, rather that they received a “balanced” treatment. Search for the word “balanced,” and you’ll see. I never implied that this was unfair. What IS unfair, or just plain wrong if you wish, is the ABSOLUTELY FALSE assertion that our educational system LEFT OUT any exposure of white misdeeds throughout history. The educational system most certainly did NOT do that. Nor, however, did the educational system give the same balanced treatment to other races, nationalities or ethnicities — in any widespread manner, that is. Of course there are exceptions that prove nearly every rule.
@resw77: Of course, whites are NOT the only group to go to every inhabitable country and commit all those acts. Are you REALLY trying to tell me that Africa was only a land of milk and honey before the arrival of colonial Europeans? Are Mongols white? How about the Chinese? Egyptians? Assyrians? The moslems who throughout history essentially persecute, enslave or kill anyone with the temerity not to convert? Were the Aztecs white? The Mayans? Did they get their empires’ lands by being sure to expand ONLY to uninhabited areas of their realsm? How about American indians? Were they always perfectly scrupulous to avoid other tribes’ lands when building their various empires? Were they all white Europeans?
Uhhhh…no.
The story of empire building and expansion is ALWAYS and has ALWAYS been a story of conquest.
Btw, don’t go all Philadelphia lawyer on me. “Inhabitable” means — to me — all the lands inhabitable AT THE TIME by the peoples doing the inhabiting. 🙂
Bottom line: there is no race whose members can look back on their past with unreseved contentment and satisfaction. Now, I hear it already, so just stop: it does NOT justify, in any way, shape or form, any crimes committed against anyone by anyone. Ok? Sheesh!
But, even with ALL THAT, resw77, I’m feeling generous here. Your phrase beginning with: “You do realise that whites …” very neatly makes my point for me. How much MORE miraculous is it that — after all that white brutishness — we’ve arrived at THIS point where there is so little white racism in America TODAY (<– the ACTUAL topic of the discussion.)?!? So, I invite you ALL to tell me just how depraved the white race has been throughout history — I already have a pretty good idea anyway, 'cause I learned it in the American educational system — so that you can make my point even stronger that there's OBVIOUSLY WAY LESS such racism today. In fact, there's really very little. 🙂
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
I think this is more of a blogger rivalry than an exchange of ideas or telling someone they are wrong.
— xPraetorius replied:
Could be…but again, I have no need to “win,” as a rivalry might imply.
However, I will not just stand idly by and allow some ignorant nitwit (not you) to call ME a racist without telling him he’s wrong. The fact that I can prove it seems to have the readership here all defensive and reverting to the very thing I’ve been saying all along: blind, sheep-like accusers of racism.
More and more, that accusation — still the most toxic in the lexicon today — is losing its totemic power through overuse and through really stupid use: like finding white racism in white condemnations of white racism, as is the premise of the original blog post.
You ARE mistaken in one thing: I AM telling Abagond that he’s wrong, and I have supported that conclusion extensively.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
1. As to supporting your conclusion extensively, you ducked at least two requests to back up your $17 trillion figure. You even ducked Brothawolf’s request for a definition of racism. Apparently you are a B.S. artist.
2. This post is about the moral reasoning White Americans apply to their history, It is NOT about what YOU say it is. If you cannot remain on topic, then go rant on your own blog.
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@ xPraetorius
“Could be…but again, I have no need to “win,” as a rivalry might imply.”—I am a firm believer in actions speak louder than words and your actions alone prove that you are out to “win” something. If not then you would have accepted a long time ago that Abagond feels his way and just moved on.
“You ARE mistaken in one thing: I AM telling Abagond that he’s wrong, and I have supported that conclusion extensively”—I am mistaken how? My original comment stated and I shall quote “an exchange of ideas or telling someone they are wrong.” Secondly you have not proven anything though. I think you believe that your 5 points prove more than what they actually do.
YOU don’t believe racism is a problem today and as such then it must not be a problem. Everything hinges on whether or not racism today can be proven to YOU and if it cannot then it does not exist. If anything today racism is not as wide open and straight-forward as it was in the past.
It does not make Abagond wrong in his assertion of those whites that are racist anymore than it makes you wrong in your assertion of whites that are not racist.
I appreciate that you decided to engage us rather than debate us on your blog alone, but I have grown weary of the back and forth. Good day.
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on Tue 13 Aug 2013 at 22:40:47 xPraetorius
Sorry, Abagond’s post is a pile of incoherent, paranoid blather. And the bilious replies that followed confirm it.
[…]By the way, I’ve NEVER heard ANY white person WHATSOEVER ask for ANY kind of gratitude for having undergone this self-inspection.
I don’t think this person is even capable of comprehending what Abagond wrote.
It’s very seldom that even the most well-meaning whites don’t pat themselves on the back for “daring” to even deal with black people, let alone acknowledge racism. This type of acknowledgement is always done from a one-up position of the white person granting a great favor. This is insulting as hell.
I think Praetorius is very sheltered and not half as educated as he thinks he is.
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Omnipresent said: Just because an individual is not an active member of these groups does not mean that they do not aspire to their ideologies. Many people are ‘put off’ being directly associated with them due to their extreme approach. In the U.K for example, a party called UKIP have members which have been revealed as belonging to or being associated with ‘far right’ groups however, when confronted with evidence of this, denial denial denial.
xPraetorius said: Oh, come on, O…no reading other people’s minds. Stop it, please. Next, I’m talking about racism here in America. UKIP is British.
I am not talking about reading other peoples minds, I am talking of their behaviours towards, their actions, their reactions and what they say. I take on board what you are saying about discussing the U.S but, I can’t help mention this example because ‘people are people’ wherever in the world they live. In the case of the UKIP party members, the truth is irrefutable.
Omnipresent said:You gave A response but what about this part of the question I have to also ask, if people are doing their best to remove any prejudice for centuries!!!, why is it taking so long? Whats the hold up?
xPraetorius said:Thanks for reminding me! I forgot to address the “What’s taking so long?” question! The answer’s easy, though. No population changes states of mind overnight.There wasn’t even telephone communications at the turn of the last century, let alone genuine MASS communication. Furthermore things like television, radio, internet are only recent inventions, with the internet being by far the youngest within most of our memory. Now, ideas cross the country in minutes, but before it took decades to change minds and hearts. The point is, though, that it got done, and for at least 50 years white racism has simply not been a big problem. You may question this, but I’d point you to acceptance of all things gay. The idea, while oldish, exploded onto the scene a VERY short time ago, and it appears that most states will adopt gay marriage laws. All this in a few very short years!
Omnipresent says: You seem to take a stance where you speak for ALL white America. I’m sure you are smart enough to know, this is just not possible. You picked me up earlier on what you called ‘reading peoples minds’ – how is it that you can categorically say that just because legislations and SOME attitudes have changed that the effects are far reaching enough to ensure that racism is not a big problem? The acceptance of all things GAY? Again, being GAY is something that a person of any race can be – this does not demonstrate to me that race is not a problem however, it does show that tolerance/acceptance is more widespread than before.
xPraetorius said: I KNOW first hand of things called Affirmative Action programs, because I have worked first hand with them across the country for may years. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence — for what that’s worth — of minorities pushed to the front of the jobs line simply because of their minority status. Who isn’t familiar, for example, with the simple phrase: “An equal opportunity, Affirmative Action employer”?
Omnipresent said: Affirmative Action is supposed to be about addressing imbalance. This does not put incapable people in jobs that they are unable to do just because they are disabled/black/female whatever.
xPraetorius said: Actually it most definitely does put people let prepared to do the job in many, many positions. This is a matter of fact, not debate.
I disagree and it is certainly not as widespread as you are trying to maintain though I don’t doubt that you have seen examples of this.
Omnipresent said: Anyway, if racism is not an issue in America, why does it matter if the best people are being chosen for the job but they ‘happen’ to come under a group of people who have governments have classified as having protected characteristics?
xPraetorius said: The best people are NOT being chosen…they ARE being chosen because of their race. It does no favors to anyone; eithe rthe employer or the employee.
Omnipresent: This is NOT the purpose of affirmative action. Managers who are using this to purely to fulfill their ethnicity quota are misunderstanding the brief. You should probably question why they are in a position of authority if they cannot understand how this should be implemented.
Omnipresent said: Or are you saying that people who come under these categories couldnt possibly compete with a white person and be better?
xPraetorius said: Nope. Never said that.
Omnipresent: Ok then but your comment above about people being chosen BECAUSE of their race does not really show that there are exceptions.
Omnipresent said: Abagond’s is one opinion – just because people agree with some of his posts, does not mean that they are close minded. Some people have had experiences that are negative, this MUST be acknowledged otherwise YOU TOO are in danger of being as ‘close minded’ as you accuse others of being.
xPraetorius said: Thanks, Omnipresent. I agree. You and I might differ on this, but I think that your assertions prove my points. You speak of people having “bad experiences.” Ok, but ALL people have bad experiences. Now, however, the bad RACIST experience is the rare exception. And, the big difference is that there is just a whole lot of recourse if it DOES happen.
To put one of your points back in your court, we cannot ‘read peoples minds’. We do not know what people have been through, to what extent or how they deal with it. It is dismissive to say that racist experiences are the rare exception. This is not always out of downright disregard – sometimes people will claim that they just ‘don’t understand’ how what they did can be seen as ‘racist’ because they have done it for a long time perhaps and never been called up for it. Whilst it may be frustrating and irritating to acknowledge you have to take on board that many white people are not as enlightened or as far forward as you ‘think’ they are/should be.
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@xPraetorius
“stop, please, reading things that I MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT say into what I wrote. I NEVER said whites received any UNFAIR treatment at the hands of the education system, rather that they received a “balanced” treatment.”
So you’re going to pretend you never said “White people are still the only identifiable group in history ever to undergo a thorough examination of their own treatment of ALL other peoples”
“Are you REALLY trying to tell me that Africa was only a land of milk and honey before the arrival of colonial Europeans? Are Mongols white? How about the Chinese? Egyptians? Assyrians? The moslems…Aztecs white? The Mayans?”
LOL. When did Africans (incl. Egyptians), Mongols, Chinese, Assyrians, Aztecs and Mayans go to EVERY inhabitable continent and commit the evil deeds I aforementioned?
Please enlighten us.
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Agabond,
Still feeding that sick puppy? You need to let this one go. No one is learning anything and the point of your post is being disrupted.
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@ xPraetorius
“Abagond is most definitely NOT qualified in anyway to tell me the mindset of most. Nor did I ever tell you anyone’s mindset.”—Abagond is but neither are you and the problem is that you don’t even realize that you do it or you realize it and find a quick excuse for it. Excusing it will not change the fact that you are doing it. I quoted on and your excuse it whites that count, but hello all whites count and should be taken seriously. This is what I mean by your excuses and playing on words. Deciding at a whim what counts and what does not to prove a point, but it is not up to you to decide who is or is not considered “white enough to be taken seriously.” They are still white and thus are in the category.
This is why you are still in these arguments with people because Abagond is stating something on “racist” whites and you are telling him he is wrong because you have decided to categorize the white race and picked out the very people he is referring to. Then going on and on about how he is wrong when in fact you are not talking about the same thing.
As for being a hypocrite I see you as such when you are making statements in regards to what all white people are doing or believe. You really don’t know what all white people are doing or believing even if you take out the ones you don’t take seriously you still don’t know. Calling Abagond out on his Post does not qualify you to use most or all either. You are using this absolutes and all and most phrases and then turning it around to say…not those people or except those people. Well if that is the case then it is not all or most, but either way do you know all or most to make the assertions you are?
Fine you have not lied to me as I am not aware of your intent and I will admit to you admitting you are wrong, but only if you are caught will you admit these things.
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@TorrontoGirl:
I object to this. Dogs aren’t generally violent unless they are threatened, abused or have incompetent owners.
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@ All
I just deleted some posts that were answering xPraetorius. He has completely derailed this thread. It was useful for a while, when he was proving the post, when he was my Show and Tell lizard. Now it is getting ridiculous, getting lost in his crazy mirror world.
Do not respond to his earlier comments unless they relate to the post – the moral reasoning White Americans use when talking about their past and present, the 12 White Excuses. It is NOT about whether whites or xPraetorius is racist. That is HIS topic.
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Mr X, well, you play jazz, that is great, Im a jazz player myself, Ive been on the bandstand with some really monster players like, Henry Johnson, Sonny Sharrok (toured France with him), Jimmy Ponder, my first gig in New York was with Alex Foster and Mike Wolff , and John Scofeild was the guitar player, subbing for Barry Finarty, Ryo Kawasaki, Stern , Richie Hart with the incredible Dr Lonnie Smith…but hey, names dont mean anything here, so, I just have to say, with no false modesty, Im a bad mf, and I belive my band , if i can get the colleagues I want, could wipe your band out…hey, Im a current profesional and Im very comepetive, because I know the dues Ive paid
And I personaly dont think , and I dont know your playing, so, Im not directing at you, if you cant cut some up tempo BeBop, a person isnt really facing the the highest leval of jazz that was innovated by black Americans, in other words, if a person wants to play jazz, but cant cut an up tempo, they arent really facing the deeper principles that the innovative black American geniuses put out there…in real jazz, the harmony and melodies have to be a slave to the groove and swing…these other off shoots have watered down the real aproach of jazz. And jazz is black American history, not black American history is jazz, but, jazz is all about the black American struggle, their innovation and how the innovators were lost in the comercial shuffle…oh yeah, some broke through, same in pop music, but, it isnt about really who can make the green, its about who they chose to back with multi million dollar campains and that they make some pretty weak choices to put on the poor buffet that is open to the public to buy..if a black artist hits it big, they will get the support, but, I can tell you, there is a huge string of boring white acts that got the big push and a huge amount of talented players never got any kind of help from the industry…
If they are not letting black players play at the event I worked at, how can there really be a chance to get the shot?You dont think that there are a huge string of desicians made at high levals by a few people that have reflected some of the most bland white bread music in history? You can go back to Rudy Valee, I mean who remembers him now? Look at old Saturday night live shows and the bands that got the shot are some of the most forgettable boring music ever made, and mostly white….sure there are some great white players, but, jazz, funk, hip hop are black cultures, and I have seen in a big way, black cultures struggling every step of the way, in Brazil , the USA,and getting sufocated, dissmissed, banned, (Samba, Jazz, Rock, Capoeira, Candomble, Baile Funk etc have all gone through being banned by capatalist countries, commie countries, Islamic countries, Christian organistions, Henry Ford, etc etc
it is the story of black Afro diasporic cultures in the Americas
You see, I thought you could run these fantastic ideas by your think tank and you all could tweak your thing a little bit better
because, these cultural principles, go back to the ancient Africans, who were genius to be able to discover how to put two rhythms together , syncopate it and repeat it over and over…self similarity…hey, you smart tank people know what that is , right? self similarity, its in fractals, Mandlebrot, the thumbprint of god, yes, Im saying ancient Africans organicly took the first steps of mankind to come up with genius principles that quantum physics is describing today, and those ancient African principles were describing ecactly that…no other cultures aproach groove in the same way, except Afro diasporic descendants , they came up with it, looped duple triple rhythms back on each other and syncopated them and made them call responce and grooved it forever, and had dance movemtents that used the whole body as a fulcrum to express these cross rhythm principles
And, that is also why racism came into being, Western and Arab slave traders, pulled so many millions of people out of Africa that it is painfully plain, it was becuase they thought their culture was inferiour,or infidels,so they invented racism to justify this slavery…Arabs in their own way..
This is the crux of why racism is so prevelent today, refusal to respect the culture, that is why Martin was gone after, because he was apropriating dress that was culturaly relevant to him from black hip hop styles…but, Zimmerman associated it with thugism or potential burglar..other black people lived in that place, it was a non understanding of culture that caused this….and this supresion of culture is playing out big time today, surly you dont think real black culture is being demonstrated on the media, do you? Are we seeing the best of black American culture?Not that some talents dont get through, they do and always have, but,its a white world in the media industry, white judgements for the most part and white culture, but white culture that apropriated black culture and did it mostly poorly
By the way, I can relate to what Brothawolf sais and I dont think he hates white people, he is attacking “whiteness” the state of mind that perpetuates the not so blatent and blatent obsticles that keep getting thrown in black Americans front…I see how clearly they exist….in two countries
and, a big part of it is cultural dismissing , burying and destroying black Afro diasporic culture
I think your think tank can run that through the tread mill
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@ xPraetorius
“I NEVER said whites received any UNFAIR treatment at the hands of the education system, rather that they received a “balanced” treatment.”
Let’s not play games here. You clearly said, and I quote, “Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.”
See that word “unbalanced” that you used?
“…Africa was only a land of milk and honey before the arrival of colonial Europeans? Are Mongols white? How about the Chinese? Egyptians? Assyrians? The moslems…Aztecs…Mayans? ”
When did Africans (incl. Egyptians), Chinese, Assyrians, Mongols, Aztecs or Mayans go to EVERY continent to commit the evil deeds I aforementioned. Enlighten us.
“don’t go all Philadelphia lawyer on me. ‘Inhabitable’ means…”
I used “inhabitable” so as to exclude Antarctica, if that’s OK with you.
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@ B.R.
“By the way, I can relate to what Brothawold sais about “whiteness” and I dont get he hates white people,he is talking about that state of mind”—I am glad you brought this up because like a fool I always thought “whiteness” was reference to white people and not a state of mind.
Thank you and I am sorry Brothawolf if I had not asked you about this previously
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Sharina, took me a a few posts by Brothawolf, Matari, and others to really get it, once I did, it made a lot of sence
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thanks Abagond and thanks for correcting it…I dont want to deral the thread, Ill just check it out now
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Abagond:
I just deleted some posts that were answering xPraetorius. He has completely derailed this thread.
Irritating. I am not as fluid a writer as others on here, it takes me time to compose my responses. Could you not have done a cut off and directed people to an alternative thread?
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@ Omnipresent
“I am not as fluid a writer as others on here, it takes me time to compose my responses”—They are great for the time you put into them. 🙂
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@Abagond
My deleted comment did relate to this topic; All I did was address xPraetorius’ downplaying racism using your point #1 “Everyone does it.”
There are certainly more comments on this page that are more off-topic than that, including the last several.
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“More and more, that accusation — still the most toxic in the lexicon today — is losing its totemic power through overuse and through really stupid use: like finding white racism in white condemnations of white racism, as is the premise of the original blog post.
You ARE mistaken in one thing: I AM telling Abagond that he’s wrong, and I have supported that conclusion extensively”
1. As to supporting your conclusion extensively, you ducked at least two requests to back up your $17 trillion figure. You even ducked Brothawolf’s request for a definition of racism. Apparently you are a B.S. artist.
2. This post is about the moral reasoning White Americans apply to their history, It is NOT about what YOU say it is. If you cannot remain on topic, then go rant on your own blog.
xPraetorius replies:
@abagond, @abagond, @abagond…fer cryin’ out loud! Give me a break! I’ve barely caught up with sharina, and she’s not nearly as long-winded as you! My morning appointments DID take a chunk of my day.
First: As regards the topic of off-topic: go yell at B.R. He was all OVER the north 40, and nowhere near the topic. Then, go yell at everyone who felt it necessary to tell me all about white misdeeds in the past. So, those posters who went REALLY far afield, are unchastized by you because they support your point of view? You just forfeited forever any right EVER to accuse me of anything even RESEMBLING hypocrisy. Sorry, if you can’t even be an honest moderator of your own blog, then everything else you say or write is suspect too.
As to the 17$ trillion dollar figure, just quickly — looking at a couple of charts from the government, American GDP averaged roughly 9 trillion per year since 1980. Welfare has averaged more than 6% per year since 1980, but let’s use 6%.
6% of 9 trillion is 540 billion. 540 billion times 32 years (1980 through 2012) = 17.28 trillion for welfare alone. That’s in year 2000 dollars, and counts only the time period from 1980 through 2012. Of course, there was still more spending between 1965 — the beginning of the so-called “Great Society” programs — and 1980. I’ve left that out because I think my point is already well on the way to being illustrated.
I used: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/welfare_spending for the level of welfare spending. They gave that as a percentage of GDP. I googled GDP and found something that comported with what I recalled from generally paying attention all my adult life, other research and the like, so it seemed credible.
I had some economics courses in college (in the early ’80’s) in which we all learned that welfare spending alone had already reached 6 trillion dollars. Now, some 30 years later, of course it would have had a chance to triple, if not more so.
As regards your point #2, you have no way of knowing what moral reasoning whites apply to their history, remember? Want me — a white dude — to start telling YOU all about the moral reasoning BLACK people use to justify ignoring the carnage of black-on-black violence in the inner-cities? Of course not. You’d tell me to go fly a kite. Come to think of it, you tell me to do that even when I speak about WHITE states of mind! An area, obviously, where I have some extensive direct experience. 🙂 I love how you imply that YOU are BETTER able to tell ME about white thinking and white feelings and needs and wants than I AM! Hello, Abagond! Anybody home?
Oh, as to your parting shot…I have no doubt that I’m heading for exile here, and that you will censor my posts soon enough…that’s just typical of race-baiters and lefties who feel the need to shut out challenging or dissenting voices — which is all of ’em I’ve ever met. Are YOU going to be any different, Abagond? I doubt it.
Best,
— x
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@ Omnipresent, etc
I undeleted comments that came in before I announced the cut-off or right after it. My bad.
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sharina:
Omnipresent: “I am not as fluid a writer as others on here, it takes me time to compose my responses”—
They are great for the time you put into them.
Thank you – as a commenter I have admired on this blog that means a lot (Abagond, last ‘off topic’ comment).
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Abagond:
@ Omnipresent, etc
I undeleted comments that came in before the cut-off or right after it. My bad.
Thank you – where should the responses to unrelated comments go?
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Omnipresent
Abagond:
I just deleted some posts that were answering xPraetorius. He has completely derailed this thread.
Irritating. I am not as fluid a writer as others on here, it takes me time to compose my responses. Could you not have done a cut off and directed people to an alternative thread?
xPraetorius:
@Omnipresent: Re-read…you will see that all I EVER did was respond to questions, challenges, insults or arguments. I never, ever, not even once, did ANYTHING, but go where others asked me to go. (Surely someone can come up with an irrelevant funny for THAT last line. Go ahead; I teed it up for you! 🙂 )
I most certainly did NOT derail anything whatsoever. It is NOT my job to moderate the comments, insults, jeers, and other nitwittery directed toward me.
Please feel free to ask Abagond to be an honest moderator of the blog.
Btw…I feel a sorrowful Abagond coming up with a post, saying something like: “Everyone’s just BEGGING me to get RID of this lousy, rotten xPraetorius pest! I guess I’ll have to send everything he writes to spam from now on.”
Then, you all can go back to patting each other on the back and telling each other how brilliant you are, as you make sure to protect your echo chamber ever more tightly from outside points-of-view.
🙂
Best,
— x
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xPraetorius:
@Omnipresent: Re-read…you will see that all I EVER did was respond to questions, challenges, insults or arguments. I never, ever, not even once, did ANYTHING, but go where others asked me to go. (Surely someone can come up with an irrelevant funny for THAT last line. Go ahead; I teed it up for you! )
You are talking to the wrong person xP, it IS Abagonds blog after all and if he says it is off topic then there is little that can be done.
go where others asked me to go
🙂 I will leave the ‘funnies’ to the others but probably best to go to the Open Thread.
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@ xPraetorius
1. I chastized you because you are main one derailing the thread.
2. You will PROBABLY be banned in two or three months, though maybe you will surprise me. I say that NOT because I plan to do that, but based on past experience with white commenters who show a basic contempt for black people, as you seem to. It will not come down to censorship like you think. It will come down to you having contempt for me and my rules.
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@ xPraetorius
“Then, you all can go back to patting each other on the back and telling each other how brilliant you are, as you make sure to protect your echo chamber ever more tightly from outside points-of-view.”—You are not the victim of anything.
Randy is one of a few posters who holds a different sets of views and often times is telling Abagond he is wrong, but the difference is he does it in a respectful manner.
It is not about a different point of view but rather YOUR point of view. You believe what you say is the 100% correct and you leave no room to see the error in your own view points., but oddly enough are quick to point out errors in others. That is human nature I suppose, but as I said….no more wrong than you.
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Ok I an done. I have to stop engaging in the derailment.
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@ xPraetorius
Of course I know what their moral reasoning is. I can read, I can hear and I have a brain. It is not some huge secret.
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B. R. said:
Mr X, well, you play jazz, that is great, Im a jazz player myself, Ive been on the bandstand with some really monster players like, Henry Johnson, Sonny Sharrok (toured France with him), Jimmy Ponder, my first gig in New York was with Alex Foster and Mike Wolff , and John Scofeild was the guitar player, subbing for Barry Finarty, Ryo Kawasaki, Stern , Richie Hart with the incredible Dr Lonnie Smith…but hey, names dont mean anything here, so, I just have to say, with no false modesty, Im a bad mf, and I belive my band , if i can get the colleagues I want, could wipe your band out…
xPraetorius replies:
Ok. We don’t do “Battle of the Band” competitions, but if we do, we’ll be sure to avoid your band.
B.R: hey, Im a current profesional and Im very comepetive, because I know the dues Ive paid.
xPraetorius replies:
Nice! Do you know the dues I’VE paid? I’m not at all competitive. I’m into the music for its ability to uplift and speak to a much deeper part of me than things like this exchange.
B.R: And I personaly dont think , and I dont know your playing, so, Im not directing at you, if you cant cut some up tempo BeBop, a person isnt really facing the the highest leval of jazz that was innovated by black Americans,
xPraetorius replies:
Ok…that, I gather, is your opinion. You might want to run it past someone with more expertise than I have…I can’t really comment.
B.R: in other words, if a person wants to play jazz, but cant cut an up tempo, they arent really facing the deeper principles that the innovative black American geniuses put out there…in real jazz, the harmony and melodies have to be a slave to the groove and swing…these other off shoots have watered down the real aproach of jazz. And jazz is black American history, not black American history is jazz, but, jazz is all about the black American struggle, their innovation and how the innovators were lost in the comercial shuffle…
xPraetorius replies:
Ok…Did I mention I’m not real big on jazz history? If you’d like to join our think tank, we’d welcome your contributions. Also, the conflict between art and commerciality is an eternal one.
B.R: oh yeah, some broke through, same in pop music, but, it isnt about really who can make the green,
xPraetorius replies:
No? REALLY?!? You’re telling me that if a recording exec sees a performer who can make him a fortune, he’ll let someone else get him AND the money? I don’t think so!
B.R: its about who they chose to back with multi million dollar campains and that they make some pretty weak choices to put on the poor buffet that is open to the public to buy..if a black artist hits it big, they will get the support, but, I can tell you, there is a huge string of boring white acts that got the big push and a huge amount of talented players never got any kind of help from the industry…
xPraetorius replies:
Ok, you know more about jazz than I do. I’m very glad for you. It’s truly a rich medium for communication. I hope you have many years of happiness and fulfillment playing jazz.
B.R: If they are not letting black players play at the event I worked at, how can there really be a chance to get the shot?
xPraetorius replies:
I don’t know…I think I mentioned that in the post. However, I DO know a universal: if YOU represent the possibility of lots of revenue to a recording company of any kind, they will — obviously — throw their resources behind you in a big way. This in no way means that I have any admiration for any recording companies. All I’VE ever heard is that they are merciless to the artists of all colors who work for them. With that said, I don’t know nearly enough to call that a hard-and-fast conclusion on my part.
B.R: You dont think that there are a huge string of desicians made at high levals by a few people that have reflected some of the most bland white bread music in history?
xPraetorius replies:
I don’t know. I think I mentioned that in the post. I can say with confidence that if they thought that was the route to the greatest earnings, then that’s probably what happened.
B.R: You can go back to Rudy Valee, I mean who remembers him now?
xPraetorius replies:
I do…I guess that dates me a bit, eh?
B.R: Look at old Saturday night live shows and the bands that got the shot are some of the most forgettable boring music ever made, and mostly white….sure there are some great white players, but, jazz, funk, hip hop are black cultures, and I have seen in a big way, black cultures struggling every step of the way, in Brazil , the USA,and getting sufocated, dissmissed, banned, (Samba, Jazz, Rock, Capoeira, Candomble, Baile Funk etc have all gone through being banned by capatalist countries, commie countries, Islamic countries, Christian organistions, Henry Ford, etc etc
xPraetorius replies:
Ok. Sounds yucky.
B.R: it is the story of black Afro diasporic cultures in the Americas
xPraetorius replies:
Except for now in America, where that is NOT the story.
B.R: You see, I thought you could run these fantastic ideas by your think tank and you all could tweak your thing a little bit better
xPraetorius replies:
Why? We never pretended to know everything about all industries. I’ll be happy to run these ideas past my colleagues, but most of them don;t know much about the music industry or its relations with various ethnicities. Our expertise runs in other directions.
B.R: because, these cultural principles, go back to the ancient Africans, who were genius to be able to discover how to put two rhythms together , syncopate it and repeat it over and over…self similarity…hey, you smart tank people know what that is , right? self similarity, its in fractals, Mandlebrot, the thumbprint of god, yes,
xPraetorius replies:
Ok. Cool!
B.R: Im saying ancient Africans organicly took the first steps of mankind to come up with genius principles that quantum physics is describing today,
xPraetorius replies:
Ok…kind of a leap, though, don’t you think.
B.R: and those ancient African principles were describing ecactly that…no other cultures aproach groove in the same way, except Afro diasporic descendants , they came up with it, looped duple triple rhythms back on each other and syncopated them and made them call responce and grooved it forever, and had dance movemtents that used the whole body as a fulcrum to express these cross rhythm principles
xPraetorius replies:
Nice!
B.R: And, that is also why racism came into being, Western and Arab slave traders, pulled so many millions of people out of Africa that it is painfully plain, it was becuase they thought their culture was inferiour,or infidels,so they invented racism to justify this slavery…Arabs in their own way..
xPraetorius replies:
That’s your opinion. Others — even on this very blog — might differ regarding your colorful, if simplistic, explanation for the origins of racism.
B.R: This is the crux of why racism is so prevelent today, refusal to respect the culture, that is why Martin was gone after, because he was apropriating dress that was culturaly relevant to him from black hip hop styles…but, Zimmerman associated it with thugism or potential burglar..
xPraetorius replies:
Obviously not.
B.R: other black people lived in that place, it was a non understanding of culture that caused this….and this supresion of culture is playing out big time today, surly you dont think real black culture is being demonstrated on the media, do you?
xPraetorius replies:
I don’t know…I wouldn’t presume to tell you precisely what “black culture” is. You plainly know more than I about it.
B.R: Are we seeing the best of black American culture?
xPraetorius replies:
I don’t know. I hope not. That would be a shame. Are we seeing the best of white culture? I CAN answer that. No. And that IS a shame.
B.R: Not that some talents dont get through, they do and always have, but,its a white world in the media industry, white judgements for the most part and white culture, but white culture that apropriated black culture and did it mostly poorly
xPraetorius replies:
I’ll have to take your word on that. I really don’t know enough about that.
B.R: By the way, I can relate to what Brothawolf sais and I dont think he hates white people, he is attacking “whiteness” the state of mind that perpetuates the not so blatent and blatent obsticles that keep getting thrown in black Americans front…I see how clearly they exist….in two countries
xPraetorius replies:
I DO get the irony of Brotha Wolf telling everyone all about “whiteness.” I guess that opens the door for me to tell everyone about blackness, eh?
B.R: and, a big part of it is cultural dismissing , burying and destroying black Afro diasporic culture
xPraetorius replies:
Uhhhh…ok. Again, I’M unable to read minds, I gather you DO have that magical ability.
B.R: I think your think tank can run that through the tread mill
xPraetorius replies:
Ok.
@Abagond: you can never chastize me for going off-topic again. At the same time, I REALLY like and respect B.R. a lot! I hope you’ll allow his REALLY off-topic post to remain. Hey, he’s a jazz player, with what sound like serious credentials…you should give him plenty of respect! Besides, his post that I’m responding to here, is one of the — if not THE — best, nicest, most lyrical of this thread.
Just don’t yell at me for going off-topic. Ever again.
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
1. I chastized you because you are main one derailing the thread.
2. You will PROBABLY be banned in two or three months, though maybe you will surprise me. I say that NOT because I plan to do that, but based on past experience with white commenters who show a basic contempt for black people, as you seem to. It will not come down to censorship like you think. It will come down to you having contempt for me and my rules.
xPraetorius replied:
And again, it’s not MY job to moderate YOUR blog. And, again, I went where those who challenged me asked me to go. If you don’t chastise THEM — Omnipresent for example, or Frank — both of whom challenged me to go back to my childhood schoolbooks, or to admit to all white misdeeds throughout history. How about B. R. who produced a beautiful, but way off-topic, post about jazz? Was THAT my fault too? You had people coming at me with hiring practices in corporations, the content of educational curriculum and a lot more that was WAY off-topic! C’mon, Abagond. That’s not ME failing to stay on-topic, that’s YOU failing to moderate. The point is that I did NO derailing whatsoever. I’m NOT the main one, I’m simply the ONLY one challenging ANYONE on this thread. When they go off-topic, that’s not my fault.
You ARE correct in one thing: if I ignored all the posts that went off-topic, but called me names, or questioned my intelligence, integrity, honesty or character, I’d certainly have a lot fewer posts here. Again, why don’t you moderate your blog honestly?
Does that mean that if I call you vile names, but go off-topic, you won’t defend yourself? You’ll simply let the vile accusation stand? I doubt it.
The only REAL rule I see around here is: agree with Abagond’s premise — whether correct or not — or expect a torrent of verbal abuse, with the threat of exile. I HOPE I’m incorrect.
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
BTW, I disagree with Abagond quite often (see, e.g., the Back to Africa thread), yet Abagond has never threatened to ban me (knock on wood).
But this post is on a certain topic, from whence you have strayed. YOU began talking about your childhood before anyone else. YOU began talking about jazz before B.R., etc.
Apparently you’ve not learned to accept responsibility
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resw77 said:
@ xPraetorius
“I NEVER said whites received any UNFAIR treatment at the hands of the education system, rather that they received a “balanced” treatment.”
Let’s not play games here. You clearly said, and I quote, “Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.”
See that word “unbalanced” that you used?
“…Africa was only a land of milk and honey before the arrival of colonial Europeans? Are Mongols white? How about the Chinese? Egyptians? Assyrians? The moslems…Aztecs…Mayans? ”
When did Africans (incl. Egyptians), Chinese, Assyrians, Mongols, Aztecs or Mayans go to EVERY continent to commit the evil deeds I aforementioned. Enlighten us.
“don’t go all Philadelphia lawyer on me. ‘Inhabitable’ means…”
I used “inhabitable” so as to exclude Antarctica, if that’s OK with you.
xPraetorius replied:
I said in a previous post: “Kids DO receive morally blind propaganda in school today: propaganda telling them in perfectly unbalanced fashion just how evil white people were and still are.”
This was wrong, and resw77 has corrected me. @resw77: I accept your correction.
I have, since that post, corrected myself in this thread, but in the interest of thoroughness, here’s the correction.
Really: the education system today — and in my youth decades ago — teaches (and taught) a perspective on white history that included good things about white accomplishments, but minced no words when revealing white misdeeds. We students learned extensively of white misdeeds as well as accomplishments. So, for example: white people did NOT receive a pass in any way for slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, or any other mistreatment of black people. Furthermore white people did not receive a pass for mistreatment of American indians, or, for example: Japanese internees during World War II. However, we did learn also of good things that white people did…for example the winning of World War II was presented as largely a white accomplishment. With that said, the heroic black brigades in World War II WERE singled out for special and laudatory treatment. Furthermore, the white race was the ONLY race to receive that kind of in-depth treatment. Blacks received only glowingly positive treatment. We learned that they were either victims of white cruelty, or great artists, scientists, statesmen and thinkers — whose persons, families and work was subjected to unfair discrimination and abuse by white people. Luminaries were Tubman, Truth, Washington, Carver, Douglass, Parks, King, Jr., Robinson (Jackie), et al. Even enemy ethnicities’ misdeeds received very little attention. For example: the Japanese, the Chinese and the Vietnamese. German and American whites came in for especially withering criticism when the question arose as to how they had treated others throughout history.
Plainly my statement that students were “subjected to morally blind propaganda” was wrong. Again, I accept the correction.
Best,
— x
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xPraetoriusIf you don’t chastise THEM — Omnipresent for example, or Frank — both of whom challenged me to go back to my childhood schoolbooks, or to admit to all white misdeeds throughout history
Nope, never challenged you about going back to your childhood school books nor did I take you on a journey of so called ‘white’ misdeeds.
By the way, I was ‘penalised’ if you like by having my last entry deleted though Abagond restored it when I asked.
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Everyone,
I’m done with xPrae. Although in his twisted mind, he will think he wont the argument. But in the end, it doesn’t take the fact that he is intellectually, factually and morally handicapped.
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And this is where perception plays a big role here not only with xPraetorius, but I have to say many of the “racist” whites or whitewashed individuals that I have seen on this blog. They see things that are not there (granted I have seen some blacks do this to).
This idea that Abagond is not in a position to say all whites yet he has gone out of his way to change it to “many” or the “majority” but even in that those posters still see him as referring to all. Then the argument that he is not in the position to say “many” or the “majority.” My question becomes what gives them( even if they are white) the right to say what other whites do, say, believe, etc.? I can’t even put myself in the position to say what the majority or many of black people are doing. I don’t know. I just know what people in my area do from what I see and even they are not the majority.
I don’t get it and I fear that if I tried to then I will dive into the looney bin.
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And no I am not calling you racist in my post (simply because I don’t know you from adam and eve). I am referring to actual “racist” whites.
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Isn’t that cute, there just has to be at least one that comes in and stinks up the joint. I’m amazed that people were willing to keep reading these tired little novels xPraetorius kept posting. Please gaslight some more!
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sharina said:
And this is where perception plays a big role here not only with xPraetorius, but I have to say many of the “racist” whites or whitewashed individuals that I have seen on this blog. They see things that are not there (granted I have seen some blacks do this to).
This idea that Abagond is not in a position to say all whites yet he has gone out of his way to change it to “many” or the “majority” but even in that those posters still see him as referring to all. Then the argument that he is not in the position to say “many” or the “majority.” My question becomes what gives them( even if they are white) the right to say what other whites do, say, believe, etc.? I can’t even put myself in the position to say what the majority or many of black people are doing. I don’t know. I just know what people in my area do from what I see and even they are not the majority.
I don’t get it and I fear that if I tried to then I will dive into the looney bin.
xPraetorius replied:
@sharina: I mean this perfectly seriously: you last post is probably one of the most perceptive, intelligent posts in this entire thread. In fact, your post is filled with more on-the-mark wisdom and perception than all the others on this thread combined! Including my own…Brava!
EVERY time in life I thought I could read an individual because of his or her appearance, I was wrong. The more I got to know a person, the more he or she surprised me, until I got to know him or her VERY well. At that point, the surprise lessened. I’d be hard-pressed to tell you what my neighbor — who looks a lot like me, by the way — is thinking, and I’d never presume to do so without asking him. To generalize across an entire PEOPLE — or even across one’s own neighborhood — is positively ridiculous! And completely impossible.
Now, sharina, I apologize to you for REALLY liking your EXCELLENT post so much! I’ve probably lost you a BUNCH of friends here! (Just kidding. I’m not REALLY violating xPraetorius’ Second Law: “You’re never as big on others’ radar screens as you think you are.”)
Nota Bene: xPraetorius First Law: Going to the bathroom causes the phone to ring.
Best,
— x
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sharina said:
And no I am not calling you racist in my post (simply because I don’t know you from adam and eve). I am referring to actual “racist” whites.
xPraetorius replied:
@sharina: just as on-the-mark as your previous post. Well written, well said, well done.
Best,
— x
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@ xPraetorius
Look, I cannot babysit my blog 24/7. If you are unwilling to follow the rules, then you can leave:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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Omnipresent said:
xPraetoriusIf you don’t chastise THEM — Omnipresent for example, or Frank — both of whom challenged me to go back to my childhood schoolbooks, or to admit to all white misdeeds throughout history
Nope, never challenged you about going back to your childhood school books nor did I take you on a journey of so called ‘white’ misdeeds.
By the way, I was ‘penalised’ if you like by having my last entry deleted though Abagond restored it when I asked.
xPraetorius replied:
Ok. MY apologies. SOMEONE did; I thought it was you. My mistake.
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ xPraetorius
“C’mon, Abagond. That’s not ME failing to stay on-topic, that’s YOU failing to moderate. “
Look, I cannot babysit my blog 24/7. If you are unwilling to follow the rules, then you can leave:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
xPraetorius replied:
I read your rules…I’ve adhered to all of them scrupulously.
First batch of rules:
—————————————————-
• Repeatedly violating the comment policy
• Ignoring my warnings
• Using a sock puppet
• Threatening other commenters
• Calling for violence
Well, I haven’t done anything resembling the 4th or 5th, but #’s 1, 2 and 3 are simply YOU saying you want to be able to banish someone for any reason whatsoever. I have no problem with that, but at least be honest enough to admit it, and not resort to nonsense like “sock puppets,” and warnings only to people who disagree with you.
Second batch of rules:
—————————————————-
• in Mock Ebonics – NOPE
• spam – NOPE
• way off topic – NOPE – only in response to a poster who TOOK me offline
• thrown to moderation – N/A.
• ad hominem attacks or name calling – NOPE – but there was PLENTY of that directed at me.
• plagiarized – NOPE
• advertising – NOPE
• not in English – NOPE
• obscene or linked to obscene material – NOPE
• has a telephone number or an email address – NOPE
Those who agree with you in this thread, REPEATEDLY violated the ad hominem, name-calling and off-topic prohibitions. Not a word did you say to them, but, of course, you called me out publicly. Again, at least be man enough to be an HONEST moderator. I have no problem adhering to your rules, IF these are ACTUALLY your rules. You seem to apply them very selectively.
Further, I have no problem with you taking your time in moderating your blog, but you STILL have called out ONLY me, when I was NOT off-topic, and I have NEVER violated your name-calling or ad hominem — or any OTHER — rule. Others have violated ALL those rules repeatedly, and you have remained silent.
Best,
— x
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abagond said:
@ All
I just deleted some posts that were answering xPraetorius. He has completely derailed this thread. It was useful for a while, when he was proving the post, when he was my Show and Tell lizard. Now it is getting ridiculous, getting lost in his crazy mirror world.
Do not respond to his earlier comments unless they relate to the post – the moral reasoning White Americans use when talking about their past and present, the 12 White Excuses. It is NOT about whether whites or xPraetorius is racist. That is HIS topic.
xPraetorius said:
What a coward! Abagond wants to resurrect his echo chamber, where no one disagrees with him.
Bottom line: no one could knock off my five points or my facts regarding white actions in the past 50 years.
There is no other conclusion that can be drawn: you CAN’T answer them. Now, the only POSSIBLE responsible thing you can do is reassess your thinking, that is, obviously, deficient.
Enjoy! I certainly did!
Best,
— x
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Agabond,
Is the co-dependent personality gone? I really don’t understand people who enjoy starting fake arguments. Maybe it makes the feel like they accomplished something.
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Was Hitler evil? Of course but so are the millions who supported him. So are the millions who support such tyrants throughout history. He wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without mass support otherwise. White folks seem to be particularly adept at being evil when compared to other historic maniacs who indulge in mental, physical and cultural genocide. It is cheaper to brainwash people in the long term than to constantly physically monitor them thereby saving untold wealth;this is an especially form of evil as it takes long term planning and implementation to the points where loons like pretorius can blabber on incessantly with a view to white supremacist thinking. He doesn’t even realize it. He is comical in a perverse sort of way.
Pratorius appears to be a dumber version of no_slappz! Where’s Randy when you need him?
@Abagond:
Maybe you should title your pending post about pratorius; Is Pratorius Evil? If so why? And Who Really Cares?
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Oddly enough one of my favorite doctor who episodes is called “let’s kill Hitler.”
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I have to wonder what Hitler had going for him to get all those people to support him in his psychosis. What mental state are the people who were a ok with him murdering or ordering the murder of so many people?
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Herneith said:
Was Hitler evil? Of course but so are the millions who supported him. So are the millions who support such tyrants throughout history. He wouldn’t have gotten anywhere without mass support otherwise. White folks seem to be particularly adept at being evil when compared to other historic maniacs who indulge in mental, physical and cultural genocide.
xPraetorius:
What’s “mental genocide?”
Herneith:
It is cheaper to brainwash people in the long term than to constantly physically monitor them thereby saving untold wealth;this is an especially form of evil as it takes long term planning and implementation to the points where loons like pretorius can blabber on incessantly with a view to white supremacist thinking. He doesn’t even realize it. He is comical in a perverse sort of way.
xPraetorius:
Ooooo…wow! I bow before your OBVIOUS greater wisdom! You sure got me there. You’re one of those amazing magical people who can read minds! Now, let ME read YOUR mind…ooommmmmm…Eeewwww! Herneith who KNEW you had such ideas about small farm animals?!? If you EVER were to act on THAT, you’d go to jail for sure! At least I’m only a white supremacist; I’m not a deranged pervert. (Actually, I made that stuff up, there was really nothing there. 🙂 )
Oh, be sure never to address the points I made.
Herneith:
Pratorius appears to be a dumber version of no_slappz! Where’s Randy when you need him?
xPraetorius:
Ooooo…whew! Wow! I bow before your OBVIOUS greater wisdom! You sure got me there. Keep not addressing the points I made.
Herneith:
@Abagond:
Maybe you should title your pending post about pratorius; Is Pratorius Evil? If so why? And Who Really Cares?
xPraetorius:
Ooooo…wow! I bow AGAIN before your OBVIOUS greater wisdom! You sure got me there. If you can keep up this cascade of witty bons mots, maybe everyone will ignore the fact that you never address any of the points I made.
Best,
— x
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[…] Print […]
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Abagond, Im sorry if I contributed to derailing this thread, I thought I could tie it in, but I dont think I made it…thanks for giving me a chance..i wont do it again
I kind of thought if Mr X cant admit to the racism in society , how could he even understand your analogy to Hitler and white people in denial…Mr X sais he plays jazz and that most white people arnt racist now , and I thought if I could point out the racism in the music business, and the discrimination, that he would have to see that there is cultural racism in effect in our soicieties, , then he could start seeing the tie ins with HItler that happened in our histories…or the hypocracies we live with while condemning hitler
but….you were right, it took it off topic
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B. R. said:
Abagond, Im sorry if I contributed to derailing this thread, I thought I could tie it in, but I dont think I made it…thanks for giving me a chance..i wont do it again
I kind of thought if Mr X cant admit to the racism in society , how could he even understand your analogy to Hitler and white people in denial…Mr X sais he plays jazz and that most white people arnt racist now , and I thought if I could point out the racism in the music business, and the discrimination, that he would have to see that there is cultural racism in effect in our soicieties, , then he could start seeing the tie ins with HItler that happened in our histories…or the hypocracies we live with while condemning hitler
but….you were right, it took it off topic
xPraetorius:
@B.R.: what you said was at least tangentially related. My point was that you were telling anecdotes that I could neither corroborate, not contradict. I just don’t know that much about the music industry and its relations with black people. I DO know there are many FABULOUSLY wealthy black musicians, and artists, and actors, and athletes and the occasional Most-Powerful-Man-In-The-World. All that just doesn’t seem likely in a country in which the dominant ethnicity is so all-fired racist.
All your anecdotes tend to have equal and opposite anecdotes that contradict them. I can tell you many dozens of such contradictory anecdotes, yet I never made the claim that America is awash in racism against white people. Abagond tries to make that incorrect case all the time.
With that said, your post on jazz was just beautiful, and I loved it on its own merit. I have no idea as to its veracity or accuracy, but it was ebullient in places, enthusiastic in others, impassioned and indignant in still others, and lyrical in yet others. I read it and re-read it just for its own value.
@Abagond: if, as appears from B. R.’s post above, you’re communicating behind the scenes with your flock, then that’s more plain cowardly behavior. You REALLY don’t like to have anyone challenge you, do you?!? No wonder your thinking is 50 years behind the times!
Best,
— x
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I need to make a correction to what I just posted.
I said: “All your anecdotes tend to have equal and opposite anecdotes that contradict them. I can tell you many dozens of such contradictory anecdotes, yet I never made the claim that America is awash in racism against white people. Abagond tries to make that incorrect case all the time.”
For the last line, I meant that Abagond tries to make the incorrect case that America is awash in WHITE racism. NOT: racism against whites.
Best,
— x
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Goodness, why do you put up with that moron Praetorius?
You are being trolled 101 – from the incessant long winded incoherent and often off topic rambling, the obnoxiousness, the pathological self centeredness and inflated self regard, the stale repetitive talking points, right on down to delcaring victory complete with a hearty self congratulation! lol. Classic troll behavior.
He’s clearly too deluded to realize that he has more than proven the general theme of your blog. Unfortunately, that’s all too common.
While giving him the boot will give him the meager ego boost that he’s clearly shown he’s after here with his antics here because, for folks like him any attention is better than none, it’s much better in the short and long term than continuing to suffer the fool gladly.
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So, Abagond: will you now banish ks?
She just called me obnoxious, pathologically self-centered, full of inflated self-regard, deluded, AND possessed of a meager ego
Whew! Really got me there!
First you accuse me of pathological self-centeredness and inflated self regard, THEN you accuse me of having a meager ego! Do you even READ what you write? Worse, did that little gem ACTUALLY pass your editing?!?
If in the space of just a few lines, you say something THAT incoherent, and that meaningless, why should anyone give any credibility whatsoever to anything else you say?
You really got it all figured out, there, ks!
Best,
— x
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Oh, I forgot… ks called me a moron too. Well!
Being called a moron by someone who can tell someone else he is pathologically self-centered AND has a meager ego ought to give ANYONE pause for thought.
Either way, I’m pretty sure that calling me all that stuff violates Abagond’s injunction against ad hominem attacks and insults.
Why can’t any of you have the sheer class of B.R.?
Best,
— x
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Ooooo…wow! I bow before your OBVIOUS greater wisdom!
Make sure your nose is touching the ground as you do so!
Oh, be sure never to address the points I made.
What points? Who cares?
Ooooo…whew! Wow! I bow before your OBVIOUS greater wisdom! You sure got me there. Keep not addressing the points I made.
I don’t have to ‘address your ‘points’. I wonder why anyone else does. You are mockery material, nothing more, nothing less.
If you can keep up this cascade of witty bons mots, maybe everyone will ignore the fact that you never address any of the points I made.
I have no intentions of addressing you in a serious manner. Everyone should ignore your points because they are, well, pointless.
Kisses
XXX
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Why? Because YOU say so?
Uhhh…no.
You’ve simply joined all the rest in chickening out too. Omnipresent took a stab at it — not a bad one, either — but that was it. Pretty pathetic crowd.
Re-read your entire post, Herneith…you can sum it all up in one short phrase: You’re out of gas..
Every ignoramus in the world, who couldn’t put a coherent argument together, says something on the order of, “You’re stupid, and I won’t waste my time with you.”
Best,
— x
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And at this point you are using personal attacks at people to pull them into arguments with you. Do you find enjoyment in arguing with people?
Are you going to relay to everyone how you blogged about Abagond telling everyone to ignore you and they just did it. Ignoring the fact that a lot of the posts were deleted that did respond to you and ignoring the posters that still continued to respond to you regardless?
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Herneith
xP (ALL 5 of these HIVE MINDS) apparently have insatiable appetites for attention and disruption!
It’s fascinating and disturbing watching these Thor’s Daddy type trolls create a cyber vacuum by sucking up inordinate amounts of space and time while saying absolutely nothing of value! Same tired white racist pointless BS, different day.
When I find my misplaced magic wand, I’d like to banish all 5 of these silly xPs, and their kin, to the Broken Record Zone forever, or until RACIST people cease to exist under their self imposed delusional and confused state (emphasis on – of THEIR OWN making) as WHITE people.
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Interesting post. I don’t want to see the humanity of Hitler. Yet so many are fascinated by him, ie The History Channel.
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@sharina: No…I like to argue the issues. THAT, at least, ought to be pretty evident.
Take a look again at what Herneith wrote. It’s nothing more than “You’re-stupid-and-your-mother-dresses-you-funny” bile. It didn’t deserve a reply, but I graced him with one anyway…just to do him a favor.
About Abagond’s telling everyone to ignore me, here’s his quote: “Do not respond to his earlier comments unless they relate to the post – the moral reasoning White Americans use when talking about their past and present, the 12 White Excuses. It is NOT about whether whites or xPraetorius is racist. That is HIS topic.”
However, each time I made an earlier comment that Abagond deemed “off-topic,” it was to respond to someone else. He says that my “five points” are not relevant…Ok, well then he should stop allowing his flock to ask me for “evidence of my opinions.” That’s pretty easy. Again, it all comes down to his moderating. If he is not prepared to moderate honestly, thoroughly and consistently, then he shouldn’t pretend he has rules for participation on his blog.
Abagond says that whether or not I’M racist is not at issue, yet his equating whites today with Hitler is outrageous. No one — from sheer, basic human decency should allow such a libel to remain unchallenged.
I guess, if Abagond wants me to remain silent when he — of the rest of the echo chamber here — calls me a racist, does that mean it’s okay for me to equate Abagond with Idi Amin and Jean Bedel Bokassa, who ate children? Their skin color is all the same. Must mean Abagond eats children too, right? Is that just an okay accusation to let stand out there unchallenged?
Best,
— x
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@Kiwi: You are correct. I was not being humble. I was throwing chum in the water. Got a few nibbles too, didn’t it?
Best,
— x
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Matari said:
xP (ALL 5 of these HIVE MINDS) apparently have insatiable appetites for attention and disruption!
It’s fascinating and disturbing watching these Thor’s Daddy type trolls create a cyber vacuum by sucking up inordinate amounts of space and time while saying absolutely nothing of value! Same tired white racist pointless BS, different day.
When I find my misplaced magic wand, I’d like to banish all 5 of these silly xPs, and their kin, to the Broken Record Zone forever, or until RACIST people cease to exist under their self imposed delusional and confused state (emphasis on – of THEIR OWN making) as WHITE people.
xPraetorius replied:
Ooooo…now THERE’s some SERIOUS analysis! Whoo hoo! I guess we can all pack it all up and go home now. Matari has pronounced anathema upon xPraetorius! That just HAS to be absolutely conclusive.
Love the new names, though. Thor’s Daddy troll? Sweet!
And, there it is again: Matari says I’m a Racist! Wow! THAT’s novel! What do we have, Johnny, for the hundredth poster who’s apparently too lazy to try to mount an ACTUAL argument?!?
Best,
— x
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@xPraetorius
I know you still don’t get what I am saying but the negative energy you put in is what you will get back.
“Herneith wrote”—I see what she wrote, but I am more interested in who exactly is the first person you claimed to have used ad hominem attacks against you.
“However, each time I made an earlier comment that Abagond deemed “off-topic,” it was to respond to someone else. He says that my “five points” are not relevant…Ok, well then he should stop allowing his flock to ask me for “evidence of my opinions.”—Can’t complain because all mine were deleted.
“I guess, if Abagond wants me to remain silent when he — of the rest of the echo chamber here — calls me a racist, does that mean it’s okay for me to equate Abagond with Idi Amin and Jean Bedel Bokassa, who ate children? Their skin color is all the same. Must mean Abagond eats children too, right? Is that just an okay accusation to let stand out there unchallenged?”—Go for it. I am just tired of the arguing and whining about what this person and that person has done to you. I blame myself for even saying anything about it though.
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Kiwi
“Wrong. xPraetorius has contributed more than anyone else by proving the point that Abagond was making. Over the top, too.”
*******************
If I may say so, Abagond doesn’t NEED any such contributions from these clowns! How many endless trolls does one need to prove every point that Abagond has made (or will ever make) on his blog? It is most def not an infinite number. There’s been enough of these idiots stopping by here to last several lifetimes of blogging on racism/evil/white supremacy.
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sharina said:
I know you still don’t get what I am saying but the negative energy you put in is what you will get back.
xPraetorius:
Ok…I guess I don’t know how to respond to a repugnant post like Abagond’s — unsubtly equating white people with Hitler — with sweetness and light.
I’m surprised to hear that Abagond’s deleting posts…can you elaborate? He’s certainly made no mention to ME of deleting posts. If he’s deleting posts that contain ad hominem attacks against me, then I’ll need to give him some credit for that.
If, however, he’s manipulating content by deleting it, that is NOT how you moderate properly, because it artificially manipulates the continuity of the thread. Proper moderation works like this: (1) Abagond identifies an inappropriate blog post (2) Abagond LEAVES the post, but replaces the post’s content with a message like, “Content deleted due to ad hominem attack.” Or “Content deleted due to inappropriate language.” Just a few posts like that, and the offenders clean up their language and their act, and get back to the point. Blogging moderation 101. No one has to get banished and the inappropriate posters clean up their language pronto because they’re embarrassed. There’s no excuse whatsoever, however, for his leaving something like the below in place:
“When I find my misplaced magic wand, I’d like to banish all 5 of these silly xPs, and their kin, to the Broken Record Zone forever, or until RACIST people cease to exist under their self imposed delusional and confused state (emphasis on – of THEIR OWN making) as WHITE people.”
Or:
“Goodness, why do you put up with that moron Praetorius?
You are being trolled 101 – from the incessant long winded incoherent and often off topic rambling, the obnoxiousness, the pathological self centeredness and inflated self regard, the stale repetitive talking points, right on down to delcaring victory complete with a hearty self congratulation! lol. Classic troll behavior.
He’s clearly too deluded to realize that he has more than proven the general theme of your blog. Unfortunately, that’s all too common.”
– * – – * – – * – – * – – * – – * –
As regards the comparison with Bokassa and Amin, as you can see in my post, I made it plain that such a comparison was scurrilous, as is the blanket charge of racism of which Abagond is regularly guilty.
Best,
— x
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@ All
xPraetorius is off topic here. He has made this thread about himself. I am deleting any further posts about him (as opposed to his opinions about the post).
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[…] on Thu 15 Aug 2013 at 23:04:41Herneith […]
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Sharina,
I can only guess that Hitler’s charisma and rise to power helped have an influence on people to want to follow his cause. He was an excellent speaker showing emotion and passion whenever he delivered his speeches, and he was pretty good at command for the better part of his life.
However, I heard that before the Nazis were losing, he fell ill. He couldn’t command as good as he did, and his regime started to fall apart.
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Here is the point if you only see Hitler as evil you miss the whole point. It is akin of saying you know those guys whom go off killing a bunch of people are crazy. It gives distance, when in reality Hitler was in much the same mindset of many people of his time. You like Henry Ford, well lets say they are still apologizing for the things he was saying and how he was actually with Hitler on many points. People want to say oh I couldn’t be Hitler but in reality many people of time could have been. Hitler was the everyman in their hearts and after that heart was exposed suddenly every ones heart was changed. I think there was a poll taken in the 30’s or 40’s in which basically came out that roughly half of America had negative connotations about Jewish people.
It is easy to say I am not like him, it puts distances away from something seen in negative light. Yet, if someone were to really have given the Greatest Generation a real look at, they would have seen the rotten core of thought.
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@sharina
“@ Kay
Put your reading glasses on hun because I will make this quick. I said and let me quote “There was some that came here free.” I will repeat and by all means play close attention to the some.
“There was some that came here free.” So explain to me where or even how you came up with this ridiculous conclusion. “Umm…a more careful rereading will show I agree with your contention-MOST blacks who arrived were free..””
I notice this place serves as an echo chamber to reinforce certain narratives. The same people say the same things and the same cheerleaders repeat those same narratives. For information on Black Europeans and INDIGENOUS AMERICAN BLACKS who formed the majority US black population and not African captives read the best resource on black Europeans I’ve found
http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/Crests/Crests_2.htm
Yaffa Bey speaks on black American aborigines. Between the 2 theories there is much room for latitude. A serious researcher can find the truth is NOT ONE EXCLUSIVE THEORY.
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You’re on a tangent here. All humans, even Europeans are out of Africa.
Even if there were Black Aborigines in the pre-colombian era, they are not responsible for much genetic input into modern day African-Americans nor the basis for forming the various racial frames in America.
Most early 17th century African migrants came here as Indentured servants. But, Euro-Americans quickly realized it was not profitable for most of them to “earn their freedom”. Slavery did not develop overnight. But by mid 17th century it was being established in the colonies.
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For those who want to continue this thread under xPraetorius’s moderation, you can do it at his blog where he has copied the post and the thread up to 15 Aug 2013 at 23:24:12 GMT:
http://praetori.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/colorful-exchange-with-lefties-and-race-addicts-its-like-dances-with-wolves-only-wolves-are-smarter/
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@ B.R.
Thanks. I was not holding my breath, but thanks for giving it a shot.
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@ Kay
“I notice this place serves as an echo chamber to reinforce certain narratives. The same people say the same things and the same cheerleaders repeat those same narratives.”—I see you would rather deflect from the fact that you misconstrued what I said and refuse to acknowledge just that (no integrity I see).
I am glad you found research on black Britain (interesting read), but how does this subset the realization of slavery in the Americas? I guess you figure that these two unrelated things are now related because Britain had blacks.
“A serious researcher can find the truth is NOT ONE EXCLUSIVE THEORY.”—Too bad you are not a serious one. Nothings cut and dry my dear.
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@ Abagond
You can’t please everybody. You will either have to be a strict moderator or cut slack, but because it is your blog you have to right to do what you feel is right.
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@ Abagond
I suspect this has been an effort to get more traffic their way. And given the titling of that thread, I can’t imagine anyone with common sense going over there.
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@ Gen
You know how it is for me. I like to explore. 🙂
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Herneith:
The comments in this post became difficult to follow, though I did offer an opinion here (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/13/was-hitler-evil/#comment-186541) which basically agrees with Abagond.
I was hoping that there might be some discussion about pragmatic and reasonably agreeable periods for the “it was the times” argument, but that didn’t appear to happen.
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I think this post brought out that anger about the past itself is not the primary thing. It’s the desire to cover it up, in the present, with rationalizations, lies, and incorrect stereotypes that causes problems. These are the things that allow the wrongs of the past to continue to bear fruit today. Some people try covering up the Nazi’s Holocaust but the descendants of the people who went through it always challenge them.
IMO, it’s proper to be angry at a system (created by people) that perpetuates lies and deception and uses those tools for power. I have no anger towards individual white people unless they prove themselves to be loyal to lies. But I don’t think anything built on a shaky foundation can endure indefinitely. It must crumble under the sheer weight of truth and that will come as a shock to those deceived. Truth is written in the state or memory of the world itself even if it is not spoken by mouths.
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Very well said.
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Excellent commentary as usual, Origin!
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If the mention of Tienanmen does bother you, just ask Abagond to remove it, but you can’t ask him to debate this seriously since this is an exercise in counterfeit arguments, i mean the title is a dead give away.
Unless, you believe there is a rationale linking tribalism and mass massacre that is so self evident and does not need to be elaborated, the mere evocation of massacres being sufficient.
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Origin said:
I think this post brought out that anger about the past itself is not the primary thing. It’s the desire to cover it up, in the present, with rationalizations, lies, and incorrect stereotypes that causes problems. These are the things that allow the wrongs of the past to continue to bear fruit today. Some people try covering up the Nazi’s Holocaust but the descendants of the people who went through it always challenge them.
xPraetorius:
That’s the problem with this ENTIRE thread: A statement like “Some people try covering up the Nazi’s Holocaust” is common and PERFECTLY meaningless without context. A more accurate statement would be “Some people try covering up the Nazi’s Holocaust, but none of these people are taken seriously by any but a few cranks and fringe characters. Hence “Holocaust denial” is just not a big problem.” But, why bother making that second ACTUALLY truthful statement, when it doesn’t support the narrative.
Origin:
IMO, it’s proper to be angry at a system (created by people) that perpetuates lies and deception and uses those tools for power.
xPraetorius:
And there’s no serious evidence that there is any such system in place in America. I would point to the race of the most powerful man in the world…and his Attorney General, and countless Congressmen and women, and mayors and state reps and Senators, and artists, and athletes and commentators and fabulously wealthy actors and actresses and so many more…
Origin:
I have no anger towards individual white people unless they prove themselves to be loyal to lies. But I don’t think anything built on a shaky foundation can endure indefinitely. It must crumble under the sheer weight of truth and that will come as a shock to those deceived. Truth is written in the state or memory of the world itself even if it is not spoken by mouths.
xPraetorius:
Again, nonsense statements. Someone who is “loyal to a lie” is either mistaken, hence no reason to be angry with him, or already knows he’s wrong, and should be more an object of pity.
Best,
— x
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xPraetorius
I don’t really plan to debate. It’s pointless. I know the drill. America is just and race doesn’t matter and Americans don’t see color. White people pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and created wealth. The violent taking of land and labor and the dispensation of paying jobs and opportunity along racial lines had nothing to do with it.
When I’m REALLY not in the mood for debate I just say that white people are going to vanish so it’ll all be moot. Because that fear of annihilation either due to reprisal for past wrongs or genetic reintegration never seems far from the surface with quite a few white people. The supremacist groups come right out with it. That’s their primary concern and worry.
But I’m not feeling so dasdardly today. So I’ll just acknowledge that your views aren’t unique in my experience. It’s really hard for some people to process the reality of how this country has worked because it’ll uproot a lot of strongly held beliefs. For example, many feel proud about the role of the American army in defeating the Nazis and ending the holocaust of the European Jews. But how many people stop to think that when black soldiers came home in the late 1940s – 1950s they came home to a country in which THEY still belonged to a hated group with few guaranteed rights? How about the fact that the constitutional definition of person didn’t apply to black people at first and they only came to be counted as 3/5 person as a compromise between the North and South (for political reasons slave-owning states wanted slaves to count as full persons while the other states wanted them to be non-persons). Furthermore, many recent events can remind one of the pervasive lack of full personhood for people who are not white in this country.
With so readily available much evidence, debating about America’s racism is almost like debating any other well-established fact. It’s pointless. One either decides to accept the obvious or decides not to.
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@ xPraetorius
Thanks for admitting you misspoke. Though I strongly disagree with you, that suggests you are actually seeking the truth. And in all honesty, when I read your first long comment in this thread, I thought you had identified something that contained a grain of truth … but then you embedded it in a profoundly wrongheaded reading of Abagond’s original argument, which made a very limited, simple claim that in my opinion is plainly irrefutable.
But your admission of error (which you did two times, at least in what I read) on certain points gives me hope that discussions of this kind don’t necessarily always have to go down the path of one angry counter-accusation following another on all sides. They can instead proceed through a process of analyzing concepts, clarifying terms, searching for common ground, identifying as precisely as possible exactly where it is we disagree.
That’s something I’d like to see more of.
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Frank M. said:
@ xPraetorius
Thanks for admitting you misspoke. Though I strongly disagree with you, that suggests you are actually seeking the truth. And in all honesty, when I read your first long comment in this thread, I thought you had identified something that contained a grain of truth … but then you embedded it in a profoundly wrongheaded reading of Abagond’s original argument, which made a very limited, simple claim that in my opinion is plainly irrefutable.
But your admission of error (which you did two times, at least in what I read) on certain points gives me hope that discussions of this kind don’t necessarily always have to go down the path of one angry counter-accusation following another on all sides. They can instead proceed through a process of analyzing concepts, clarifying terms, searching for common ground, identifying as precisely as possible exactly where it is we disagree.
That’s something I’d like to see more of.
xPraetorius:
Again, I’m not interested in “winning,” as it seems everyone else here is…I admit error when I’m aware of it immediately. That’s called “maturity.” You’ll ALSO note, I’m sure, that I’m the ONLY one to have admitted error — despite the obviously less than favorable circumstances under which I debate here — in the entire thread.
So, I guess everyone ELSE here is perfect (with the refreshing exceptions of sharina and B. R.) without EVER having mispoken, or expressed him or herself less than perfectly, or made a mistake, or missed something. Well, I’m both a world-class table tennis player AND guitarist, and I MUCH prefer jamming/playing with those who are much superior to me, so this is SERIOUS fun.
When you say: “That’s [admissions of error] something I’d like to see more of.” You and I are are wholeheartedly in agreement!
Best,
— x
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Origin said:
xPraetorius
I don’t really plan to debate. It’s pointless. I know the drill. America is just and race doesn’t matter and Americans don’t see color.
xPraetorius said:
Why would you try to put those words in my mouth? Despite the simple, demonstrable fact that I never said, or hinted at , or implied or suggested, or implied them? Why would you put a PLAINLY stupid post out there. Your ENTIRE post was: “I’m not going to debate you and here’s why you’re wrong.”
Uhhhh…whuuuhhh?
O:
White people pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and created wealth. The violent taking of land and labor and the dispensation of paying jobs and opportunity along racial lines had nothing to do with it.
xPraetorius:
Ok…if you say so.
When I’m REALLY not in the mood for debate I just say that white people are going to vanish so it’ll all be moot. Because that fear of annihilation either due to reprisal for past wrongs or genetic reintegration never seems far from the surface with quite a few white people. The supremacist groups come right out with it. That’s their primary concern and worry.
xPraetorius:
Yep…brown and black and yellow and red people will “vanish” also, as travel over vast distances becomes easier and easier. Duh! Won’t happen fro at LEAST 60 years. We need to figure something out today. Duh!
O:
But I’m not feeling so dasdardly today. So I’ll just acknowledge that your views aren’t unique in my experience.
xPraetorius:
Nor are yours unique in mine. Meaningless throwaway line.
O:
It’s really hard for some people to process the reality of how this country has worked because it’ll uproot a lot of strongly held beliefs.
xPraetorius:
Yep. Abagond, for example.
O:
For example, many feel proud about the role of the American army in defeating the Nazis and ending the holocaust of the European Jews.
xPraetorius:
Yep. Justifiablyu so.
O:
But how many people stop to think that when black soldiers came home in the late 1940s – 1950s they came home to a country in which THEY still belonged to a hated group with few guaranteed rights?
xPraetorius:
Actually, lots. I was taught about that injustice in grade school in the 1960’s. Interestingly, and off-topic, so I apologize, we STILL don’t teach of the heroism of the VIETNAM vets — of any color — who returned after fighting for their country in the ’60’s an d’70’s. That is a crime.
O:
How about the fact that the constitutional definition of person didn’t apply to black people at first and they only came to be counted as 3/5 person as a compromise between the North and South (for political reasons slave-owning states wanted slaves to count as full persons while the other states wanted them to be non-persons).
xPraetorius:
Correct: the abolitionist North wanted to deny the slave-holding South as many votes as possible in order to limit suppoirt for slavery.
O:
Furthermore, many recent events can remind one of the pervasive lack of full personhood for people who are not white in this country.
xPraetorius:
Oh? Details, please. And, of course, context. Otherwise this is a throwaway line.
O:
With so readily available much evidence, debating about America’s racism is almost like debating any other well-established fac
xPraetorius:
Oh? Why? Because YOU say so? Who the heck are YOU? I say that the exact OPPOSITE is true, and you are PERFECTLY within your rights to say, and I quote, “Oh yeah? Who the heck are YOU?!?”
So our dueling “Who the heck are you’s” cancel each other out, but, if you re-read, you will see that I have put out there a whole BOATLOAD of supporting facts, evidence, links, logic, thought games and reasoning to support mine. You — Origin — got nothing.
Best,
— x
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@ Kiwi
I took out Tiananmen Square – along the Khmer Rouge and Stalin too, since I am not sure how inter-ethnic they were either. Thanks.
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“A serious researcher can find the truth is NOT ONE EXCLUSIVE THEORY.”—Too bad you are not a serious one. Nothings cut and dry my dear.
@Sharina
You’re still very young. You turned this into a personal argument when it never was. When you grow up you’ll find the things you thought you knew were nothing but the manufacture of professional deceivers.
Until then have fun stumbling through the matrix of lies you call reality-I’m done.
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@ Kay
You know the amazing part is instead of addressing your flaw you decide to run away with the “You’re still very young. You turned this into a personal argument when it never was.” Which is an indication that you never could address it to begin with.
“ntil then have fun stumbling through the matrix of lies you call reality-I’m done.”—Funny you have determined my reality simply because I don’t swallow a lie you can’t prove. SO have fun on the moon. 🙂
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“When you grow up you’ll find the things you thought you knew were nothing but the manufacture of professional deceivers.”—Again with the amazement of what she thinks I know simply because I do not swallow her back water bs.
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@Abagond…Another excellent, excellent, succinctly written post! And Family, thank you all for the astute observations and continuing education in your comments — you never cease to amaze me!
@jefe…Thanks for the link to “American Holocaust: The Destruction of America’s Native Peoples” — it was serendipitous! Using it (with attribution of course) to update my latest post on the “Baby Veronica” case which has, incidentally, been playing itself out from my hometown of Charleston, SC to Oklahoma.”
“This would be a great idea for a post.”
Initially, the series I’d begun with the Veronica case was about my own “homegoing,” to include the Old Slave Mart, gentrification, the “bleaching” (one of your words used on another post) of Black neighborhood, etc., etc., etc. But I became consumed with the absolute institutionalized white supremacy and whit privilege at work in the taking of this child from her biological father (so far, parts 1 through 1d!) — so I’ve not even begun yet, but I will write it (there’s a lot going on at home to include plans for a whole new African-American Museum among other things — not sure how “good” I think it will all be).
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[…] "Was Hitler evil? Most White Americans will say yes: he killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust! But to avoid any double standard we should apply the same moral reasoning White Americans apply to their own history." […]
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I don’t think the word ‘evil’ is helpful because that is a religious term.
Would we say that someone born as a psychopath is evil? I suppose if one is religious they would say that.
Psychopaths lack the neurophysiological “hardwiring” that enables them to care about people’s feelings.
Psychopathy affects approximately 1 percent of the United States general population and 20 percent to 30 percent of the male and female U.S. prison population.
The danger in every community and nation is that it only takes one psychopath to get into a position of power (or get their hands on a gun) to end up doing massive harm.
We can also ask ourselves if U.S. culture is evil or psychotic.
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[…] "Was Hitler evil? Most White Americans will say yes: he killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust! But to avoid any double standard we should apply the same moral reasoning White Americans apply to their own history." […]
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[…] "Was Hitler evil? Most White Americans will say yes: he killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust! But to avoid any double standard we should apply the same moral reasoning White Americans apply to their own history." […]
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[…] Read original story here. […]
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Origin
If you examine history carefully for information about Hitler’s rise to power you’ll find American links in the chain. Also, the ‘secret society’ that Hitler was a part of “The Thule Society” has equivalences on this side of the Atlantic. What was unique about Hitler was the naked single-mindedness with which he pursued his aims. American warfare and imperialism is a lot more subtle. The Nazis used propaganda masterfully through its architect Goebells but their propaganda was aimed primarily at Germans in order to win their support and loyalty. However, America came to understand the value of propaganda directed at their enemies and so developed the concept of psychological warfare or the PsyOp.
At its core, the aim is to get people to subscribe to a certain model of reality. This is the source of all power for the author of the model. It is analogous to hypnosis. If I convince you that you’re a dog, you become a dog in your own mind and I become the owner of a dog in that ‘reality’. It should be clear that if you realize that you’re not a dog all my power over you instantly vanishes. Likewise, all the horrible aspects of this imbalanced world cannot exist without everyone’s cooperation. Those who believe they benefit willingly commit to it and actively sustain it while those on the outside fight for inclusion. The thing that rarely occurs to anyone is: “This does not have to be”.
Part of the reason this thought does not occur is propaganda. Abagond touched on this in previous articles I’ve seen. Through the history we’re taught we’re told that the present ‘civilization’ is what all of humanity has been working towards. Now that it has been achieved, it will continue into the foreseeable future. It is the best there has ever been and is characterized by such high ideals as freedom, equal opportunity and prosperity. Such an ostentatious display of ‘goodness’ makes it impossible for most people – especially those that ‘benefit’ – to see the contradictions right under their noses.
Thus, for example, the war of aggression in Iraq that started with “Shock and Awe” and has resulted in countless dead civilians and the establishment of torture camps such as Abu Ghraib is called “Operation Iraqi FREEDOM”. Freedom good, war to bring freedom good. “War on Terror”: terror bad, war on terror good. However, since war itself creates terror this propaganda cleverly guarantees a never-ending war – currently over a decade and going – that everyone accepts as necessary. White supremacy is another example of propaganda which, when accepted by people who’re not so classified, it creates in them a desire to become white physically, mentally, and culturally.
But regardless of propaganda, truth is written in the material of the universe. The truth of the genesis of humanity is written in genetic laws. The truth of European colonialism in Africa is written in the official languages of most of its nations today. The truth of slavery is written in the effect it had on the race of people who endured it. The truth of what happened to pre-columbian populations is written in their greatly reduced numbers. From truth you can run but you can’t hide.
And with truth there are consequences. Slavery, in truth a greedy and degenerate institution, bore the bitter fruit of a civil war. Nazism, in truth an evil and genocidal ideology, bore the destruction and division of the nation of its birth. The truth is that if all those things were as good as they were claimed to be in their heydey, they would have been an enduring blessing. Instead, when they reached the point of unsustainability, they became curses. I do believe that earth in the current era is an anomaly because a universe run the way it is run would self-destruct. I suppose that’s why so many tales predict a period of rest and regeneration for this planet whether at the symbolic hands of the messiah or horus.
xpPraetorius:
What a mish-mosh or mystical mumbo jumbo, wild exaggeration (Ex.: Abu Ghraib as “torture” prison.), out-in-left-field interpretations of history and general silliness! An entertaining read, though. Origin: you obviously aspire to being a science fiction writer, and I think you have a future there.
Best,
— x
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With Love Glenn said:
I don’t think the word ‘evil’ is helpful because that is a religious term.
Would we say that someone born as a psychopath is evil? I suppose if one is religious they would say that.
Psychopaths lack the neurophysiological “hardwiring” that enables them to care about people’s feelings.
Psychopathy affects approximately 1 percent of the United States general population and 20 percent to 30 percent of the male and female U.S. prison population.
The danger in every community and nation is that it only takes one psychopath to get into a position of power (or get their hands on a gun) to end up doing massive harm.
We can also ask ourselves if U.S. culture is evil or psychotic.
xPraetorius:
And the answer is obvious: neither.
Best,
— x
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[…] "Was Hitler evil? Most White Americans will say yes: he killed 6 million Jews in the Holocaust! But to avoid any double standard we should apply the same moral reasoning White Americans apply to their own history." […]
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It is one of the things I’ve thought about from time to time.
The fathers used yellowed-journalism to start a war, they owned slaves, in the case of Jefferson they raped them on a continual basis.
I’m going to “guess” that the native genocide was going on during their time so….
The fathers were lying, raping, genocidal war profitteers.
Looked at it that way; they were pretty much the worst kind of people weren’t they?
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if you live in an area with a considerable amount of jewish people you’ll know people whose families were directly affected by the holocaust. abagond, it’s hypocritical for you to say that it’s wrong for jewish people to acknowledge their ancestors who went through the ordeal, when it’s ok for black people in the Americas to still be outraged about their own ancestors being enslaved, longer ago. the holocaust wasn’t the first genocide, and slavery happened long before it did in the americas.
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@ melody
Where did I say that it is wrong for Jewish people to acknowledge what their ancestors who went through?
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@abagond
Melody is just like xpraetorius. Either they completely lack reading comprehension skills or they just read what they want and ignore the rest.
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@resw77
I am going to attribute it to reading while angry. I notice quite often when people are angry and attempt to read then they see things that are not there and go on a complete tangent.
Perhaps I should start showing concern. As these type of things are escalating.
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@Sharina
“I am going to attribute it to reading while angry. I notice quite often when people are angry and attempt to read then they see things that are not there and go on a complete tangent.”
I tend to agree, but I don’t think people like melody and xpraetorius are necessarily angry when they read. I think they’d rather assume Abagond’s writings are biased before actually reading them.
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@resw77
True, but then it makes you wonder from their comments if they even read it at all.
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I’d like to give some extra context to this post. Which should help illustrate why I think it is a valid comparison Abagond has made here:
First, a quote from one of xPraetorius ill-informed comments from his own dedicated thread here :
“…It doesn’t change the fact that the “Hitler” post was a scurrilous attempt to equate HItler with white people and white people with Hitler…
As this recent video and researched article (spoken of in the video) shows this is hardly a “far fetched” claim to make. In fact this present generation of white power elites make Hitler seem almost benevolent towards Black people in comparison !!!
Rothschild elite funded (4th Reich) “Super soldiers speak”
(http://youtu.be/IE1VMBgq27w)
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Reblogged this on Perfidious Albino and commented:
No need to comment here, I am on a break. Just go over to Abagond’s. Peace.
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Was Hitler evil? Yes. He wanted to exterminate whole nations and peoples. No doubt about that. Were the americans who destroyed the natives and took their land evil? Yes, on the same vein.
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“Was Hitler evil? Yes. He wanted to exterminate whole nations and peoples. No doubt about that. Were the americans who destroyed the natives and took their land evil? Yes, on the same vein.”
******* ******* *******
Sam
It appears that all humans have a great capacity for evil.
Does it seem to you that a certain group of humans have an exceedingly GREATER PROPENSITY towards violence, killing, oppression, destruction, subterfuge for the sake of greed, control, power, dominance, profit?
If so, to what do you attribute this excessive need for hegemony?
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Great question Matari…I just don’t think too many of us are ready to deal with the reality of those answers just yet. I believe it goes beyond a simple demonising of white people.
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That picture of Hitler is very interesting. You can see that he really loved the Germans. He idolized them, wanted to be one of them, would do anything to be one of them. He was a Jew passing for German. Passing can be one of the most evil things humans can do. It’s been played out to the nth degree in Europe where it’s so easy to pass — just go to a different church and change your accent. And be willing to betray your own. And the further you go in betraying your own, the higher up you can pass. So that, if you’re willing to exterminate your own, you’ll be called a national hero in your wannabe country.
In Croatia it was Starchevich, his mother was a Serb, and his father part Serb. Starchevich was the founding father of Croatian genocidal hatred of Serbs. They’ve got statues of him all over the place. He’s their Andrew Jackson, the great genocider of the Cherokee. They’ve sanitized their histories of him, edited out all the calls for extermination, and revere him. In Europe it’s much more obvious who genociders really are — people consumed with a ferocious self-hatred. It’s the same here, just harder to see for what it is. All they’re ever doing is talking about themselves.
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It is clear, I suppose, that the actions commanded by one person do reflect that person. Hitler commanded the sustained murder of people based on immutable facts about them (race, family, disability). Most notably, declaring Jewishness and heritable trait and commanding the death of 6 million Jews.
I don’t contest that logical step at all. It makes sense.
However, the logical leap that morally condemns white Americans on the grounds of the actions of a few is not an analogous point, at all.
To accuse the current white American population of the moral vacuousness of the genocides of American history is nonsense. It’s like accusing all Americans now (regardless of race) of being the warmongers of current American politics. (Or all American Orang-utans are being as egregious as Donald Trump.) This is clearly absurd.
To blame current Americans for the genocides of the past and to draw clear racial divides to distinguish between who you do and do not morally denigrate is racist. Why would the white Americans of today be more culpable than black Americans of today? (Why would either group be responsible at all?)
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Reblogged this on Project ENGAGE.
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