Justin Trudeau, the prime minister of Canada since 2015, is now, in 2019, sunk in a blackface scandal. Picture and video of three instances of blackface or brownface have come to light this week. But it gets worse: Trudeau cannot even say how many times he has done blackface. And all this comes just a month before Canada’s general election on October 21st.
The three cases, pictured above from left to right:
- In the 1990s as a teenager while at Jean-de-Brébeuf, a private high school in Montreal, Quebec, he darkened his skin to sing Harry Belafonte’s song “Banana Boat (Day-O)”.
- In 2001 at age 29 while a teacher at West Point Grey Academy, a private high school in Vancouver, British Columbia, he dressed up as Aladdin in a turban for an “Arabian Nights”-themed gala. He not only darkened his skin, he made it way darker than, say, in the Disney film “Aladdin”.
- In the early 1990s while in his late teens or early twenties, he is pictured in a T-shirt and blackface.
Trudeau was quick to apologize:
“Darkening your face regardless of the context or the circumstances is always unacceptable because of the racist history of blackface.”
but:
“I didn’t consider it racist at the time, but now we know better.”
Who is this “we” that did not know blackface or brownface were racist in 2001? And when, between 2001 and 2019, did “we” learn it was racist?
He blames “the layers of privilege that I have.” He is not merely White, he is the son of Pierre Trudeau, the prime minister from 1968 to 1984. Are the White elite circles he moves in that out of touch?
The SNC-Lavalin affair: This comes on top of another scandal where Trudeau reportedly tried to get his attorney general to drop a bribery case against SNC-Lavalin, a construction company. If true, then Trudeau is himself corrupt even if the company was not.
Jagmeet Singh, leader of the New Democratic Party (NDP), is not only running against Trudeau, he is an actual Brown person who wears a turban. He tweeted:
“Tonight is not about the Prime Minister.
“It’s about every young person mocked for the colour of their skin.
“The child who had their turban ripped off their head.
“And those reliving intense feelings of pain & hurt from past experiences of racism.
“To you, I say you are loved.”
Blackface in Canada came from the US in the middle 1800s. It is now “as Canadian as hockey,” says Professor Cheryl Thompson, who studies blackface in Canada. The main difference between US and Canadian blackface, she says, is:
“we haven’t had a culture where we contend with race in terms of our national discourse.”
She has long voted for Trudeau’s Liberal Party, but now says:
“How can I vote for someone who doesn’t seem to understand who I am as a person?
“And I just think Justin Trudeau, for all the stuff that he says, I don’t think understands black and brown people as much as he says that he does.”
– Abagond, 2019.
See also:
- Trudeau and race
- Jagmeet Singh
- blackface
- 1949 in 33 pictures – has an example of Canadian blackface
- Ralph Northam – the governor of Virginia who had his own blackface scandal earlier this year
- Cory Booker on blackface
- Megyn Kelly and blackface – also claimed to be clueless.
- Canada
- Aladdin
563
TSULAY NEEDS A FRIEND.
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I think everyone that’s not a person of color has done this. And Trudeau did this not just once but three times. Once in “black-face.” To do a Harry Belafonte impression. And the other two times to be Aladdin at some costume party, and another time being offensive to Sihk people. And then when white people who commit this offense are called out, they come up with some fake apology. These offenders are not sorry for what they did, they are sorry they got caught.
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It boggles the mind, how white people can get so offended, when black people say, that all white people are racist, until proven otherwise.
It’s not a matter of, if they will express anti-black racism but when and to what degree. It can be implicit or explicit, it has the same effect, all the same.
I don’t even get upset about white people and their racism anymore, being it’s so constant. This state of mind is essential for the “sanity” of black people.
I quote sanity, because there is no way that black people can be sane in such an inhospitable country.
I don’t give white people credit for “owning” up to anti-black racism, when they’ve been exposed! I’ve actually seen black people do this…. I just cringe and shake my head in disgust.
Any black person making such statements, doesn’t comprehend the gravity of the circumstances in which the white racist, is forced to answer for their racist behavior.
White people never take it upon themselves to reveal their racism by themselves, so they don’t deserve redemption, nor sympathy from black people.
Hell, even anti-racists like Tim wise and Robin Diangelo acknowledged their racism, only after having their white supremacist mindset, rigorously deprogrammed for years from their minds by black people. Before this, they would never admit to being a white racist.
Then there’s the apology, which to the untrained eye, seems like it’s positioned at black people, when in actuality, it’s positioned at other white people! White people are never sorry for being racist but they are sorry for making other white people feel self aware of their racism, which in turn makes them feel bad, aka white guilt.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of black people that possess such a level of intelligence, that would allow them to be bamboozled by this white supremacist, hocus pocus!
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@Mary Burrell
“I think everyone that’s not a person of color has done this.”
I really do not ever remember doing blackface. I’m 90% certain there’s a photo of me somewhere in my childhood wearing a feathered headdress and additional costume items designed to make me look like an indigenous person though.
I’ve been racially ignorant on many occasions in my life. I’m not sure when the idea of blackface began making me feel uncomfortable, I’ve seen both Soul Man and The Party after all… But, I definitely knew it was wrong before 2000 and now I find all the old shows and films to be problematic. I guess I can see how a sheltered White person could have remained ignorant for a good long while, but in 2001, somebody in the room would’ve known better and should have made him aware if he truly was ignorant.
I’ve only recently become aware of instances of Jimmy Kimmel and Jimmy Fallon doing blackface. It does make you wonder if most of us White folk have a blackface moment in our past. Hopefully these stories are catalysts for educating our kids. Somehow I doubt everyone is getting the same message though.
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Even if not all white people have done black face, there are still a large number of white people who don’t think it’s offensive and not a big deal. Many white people or other non black people simply don’t care.
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@ Open Minded Observer: I do appreciate that you always come in good faith and are objective in your comment post and are trying to learn about intersectionality in regards to race. I appreciate that you are not a troll.
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@ Open Minded Observer: I do appreciate that you always come in good faith and are objective in your comment post and are trying to learn about intersectionality in regards to race. I appreciate that you are not a troll.
J
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Trudeau comes from a place of affluence and privilege and it’s obvious he feels entitled. So much so that he viewed people of color as “other.” Because it’s a presidential election in Canada he’s been exposed that he’s trying to appear contrite.
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@ Open Minded Observer
I can’t pinpoint an exact date either, but yeah, I knew it was wrong way before 2000.
What you said about the indigenous outfit — probably most white people have something like that in their past, wearing clothing of a non-white culture as a costume. In my case, I can remember dressing up as a “gypsy” for Halloween as a child.
But blackface is a whole different level of commitment. You’ve got to put that heavy makeup all over your face, and it looks like Trudeau did his hands as well, unless those are gloves.
I can’t remember ever seeing anyone in real life doing blackface. I’m sure it went on at some of the frat parties, though.
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I naively thought Justin Trudeau was a decent guy and life in Canada was so much better. Nothing like the horrible toxic, orange toupee wearing ghoul and his awful minions in his cabinet. My mentality was the Canadians have an attractive, socially conscious Prime Minister. Only to learn this was nothing but a costume he was wearing. And now he’s been exposed as just the opposite. I should know better he’s nothing but a politician.
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@ Mary Burrell
“I think everyone that’s not a person of color has done this.”
With all the exposes this year of white politicians who have done blackface, I can see why you would feel that way.
I don’t want to be getting “not-all-white-people” about this, but I hope maybe it will be somewhat reassuring to know that blackface is not a thing that all white people do.
I don’t even think it’s very prevalent, although I can’t say what goes on among the upper echelons.
I keep racking my brains, but I can’t think of anywhere I ever saw blackface except TV and movies. I would tell you honestly if I had.
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@Solitaire
I get it that generalizations are not a good thing. However this is quite prevalent among a large number of white high school students and white college fraternities and sororities, and Halloween especially. Whites need to learn black people are not costumes. Native Americans feel the same way. People of color are not costumes. Maybe not all but there is a great deal. And remember how black face is done during Christmas in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe.
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@Solitaire
Remember Megyn Kelly from NBC who had to be schooled in this day and time about the history of black face and minstrelsy and why this is not okay. A woman in her 40’s not knowing this? Yes, this is very prevalent.
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@ Mary Burrell
Maybe my experience is not the norm, then.
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The Dr. Jamie Riley post and this post about Trudeau are two sides of the same coin. There seems to be an effort by some White community members to re-define the word “racism” away from the acts of the White community to the words of Black people and other racialized people.
Pre-Internet, many White people were dimly aware of Black resentment about anti-Black words and actions. Discussions about structural anti-Blackness in social, economic and political arenas were confined to academia. There were newpaper and television specials that allowed Black people to speak from their own experiences, but they were rare.
With the beginning of blogging in the early 2000s and later social media platforms, Black people had ways to find each other across local and international boundaries and compare notes. What those Black folk found was a remarkable similarity in the ways anti-Blackness was structured throughout the Western hemisphere (from Canada to Argentina) with local tweaks here and there.
It is no surprise that White people were also drawn to Black blogs and social media. The intense fascination with groups of Black people is a holdover from the early 1800s. Black people in groups were (and are) considered dangerous because of the possibility of revolt. In the early days, it was a revolt against chattel slavery. Now the threat is centered on Black people revolting against the very notion of White supremacy itself and changing the national narrative about race.
Since White supremacy forms the framework for many White people’s very identity, any critical analysis of White supremacy is considered a direct attack on on some White people’s sense of self. In other words, without White supremacy and White identity, some White people feel they are reduced to non-persons.
That way of thinking is ridiculous to Black people and racialized others. Black people and others have been forced through bitter experience to identify and develop aspects of their identity/humanity that are both:
➽ independent of skin color and appearance
➽ integrated with skin color and appearance
Plus there is the issue of free speech. In North America, schoolchildren are taught they have guaranteed constitutional rights to free speech. In reality, those ‘rights’ are pushed aside when it comes to unpopular speech from unpopular groups about subjects some people feel are on the same level as Holy Scriptures.
Dr. Riley was punished for challenging the system of White supremacy with words. His words were deemed ‘racist’ and therefore unacceptable by powerbrokers at the University of Alabama.
PM Trudeau is catching minor flack for repeated acts of bigotry. He will likely be re-elected and the ‘scandal’ will be forgotten by the media and Canada’s White majority. After all, he was just doing what they do in their sheltered Whitopias and every Halloween.
The current struggle over words versus acts is about power and who gets to decide what is ‘racist’ and what is not. Who gets to hold the coin and determine its worth and its meaning will likely intensify in the coming decades.
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@Afrofem: Lots of good points.👍🏿
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There is also a deep and abiding anti-Blackness of Canada.
Some years back, when my household was able to get CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. channel on television, I came across a daytime talk show espisode that featured a Black Canadian woman. She was on sitting onstage telling the show host about the demolition of her community in Halifax, Nova Scotia during the 1960s. The guest was fighting back tears while descibing the sight of her home being bulldozed.
The kicker was when the camera panned across the White, largely female audience. Their stony faces and folded arms harkened back to my encounters with White adults in the South of my childhood. They were not the least bit sympathetic or indignant on behalf of the Black Canadian woman. On the contrary, they seemed extremely angry with her airing dirty racial laundry on national Canadian television.
I later found a written reference to the Black woman’s experience on a site called the Canadian Encyclopedia. The article “Africville” gives a semi-apologetic overview of the history of the Black Canadian village in Nova Scotia.
https://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/africville
Descriptions of Africville remind me of my grandmother’s neighborhood: paying taxes and no municipal services and constant industrial encroachment. That neighborhood was spared being turned into the county garbage dump or dog park, but the community is just a ghost of its former vital self now.
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@Afrofem:
Thanks for sharing that link. I would also like to read Herneith’s POV about the Trudeau dust up and being black in Canada.
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@ Mary Burrell
Me too.
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@ Mary Burrell
Me three.
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Still I don’t get all that attention a historical episode from someone’s puberty is taking. Why not just letting that guy painting his skin black, or putting on a red wig, or imitating scars, or cosplaying a Silvermoon incarnation?
Do you find any racial joke offensive as well?
Really, I don’t get the racial point, regardless on the common historical traits of former slavery countries shared by the USA and Russia.
..
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
Being dehumanized is not a joke and people have every right to push back against it.
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@abagond
‘Being dehumanized is not a joke’–
Agree.
But where is there the dehumanization? What makes it a dehumanization and how much does it differ from, e.g. putting on a red wig or cusplaying Silvermoon?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“What makes it a dehumanization and how much does it differ from, e.g. putting on a red wig or cusplaying Silvermoon?”
The difference is the long history of white people using blackface to demean and disenfranchise black people:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/blackface-history-racism-origins
“Still I don’t get all that attention a historical episode from someone’s puberty is taking.”
29 is not puberty by any stretch of the imagination.
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@Mary Burrell & Solitaire
Re-reading what I wrote, it does come off as a #NotAllWhitePeople thing designed to profess my innocence or whatever, but that’s not how I meant it. I guess I meant it similarly to Solitaire’s comments that maybe it’s not as prevalent as the news stories would make it seem.
HOWEVER
I’ve given it a bit of thought and it occurs to me that I only remember my parents dressing me as a Native American for halloween because I recall seeing the photo later in life. But, when it comes to the costumes everyone else has worn at every party I may have attended… well, if I didn’t find blackface offensive at the time, I would never have processed the costumes of others in a way that would allow me to recall it. So, Solitaire, you’ve stated that you’ve never seen it, but do you recall someone dressed as a landshark or Shaggy from Scooby Do or a ballerina, etc…? I mean certainly we both remember grim reapers, clowns and cowboys, but not necessarily each specific instance of those right?
I’ve mentioned before that I don’t really process people in great detail unless I’m close with them, so I’ll allow that maybe it’s just me. But, I honestly cannot tell you I didn’t see black/brown face in my younger years. Like I said, I’ve certainly been racially indifferent in my past and therefore I really cannot say with any certainty that someone I know wasn’t Michael Jackson or Mr. T or something. By 2000, I would have noticed and likely have spoken up, but not long before that, I would have been oblivious.
So, I accept that blackface might be and/or may have been extremely prevalent. Speaking only as myself, I did not always know better, and because of that, these types of conversations are front and center in my household. But, we’re also not Prime Minister of a country… It’s tough to imagine Trudeau being raised in a bubble of ignorance. Selfish bubble of privilege and cultural insensitivity is more likely and for that, he owes a much more insightful apology.
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@ Open Minded Observer
“So, Solitaire, you’ve stated that you’ve never seen it, but do you recall someone dressed as a landshark or Shaggy from Scooby Do or a ballerina, etc…? I mean certainly we both remember grim reapers, clowns and cowboys, but not necessarily each specific instance of those right?”
Well, I had hoped my wording indicated room for uncertainty (“don’t remember, can’t think of”). Looks like I should have been clearer about that. You’re right that I can’t say for certain.
But I keep comparing that to my memory of white people in Native American costumes wearing fake warpaint. I’ve seen that over and over and over again from my earliest days, considering what my school’s “mascot” was.
“well, if I didn’t find blackface offensive at the time, I would never have processed the costumes of others in a way that would allow me to recall it.”
Here’s the thing: I didn’t find the Native American costumes and mascots offensive at the time. My mindset on that didn’t change until I was around the age of 20/21.
But I remember it clearly because it happened so often. I don’t remember every single instance, because there were too damn many.
This was a constant, persistent, pervasive thing at my school from elementary up, and also at neighboring schools, and at rival colleges during undergrad, and at the university I went to for grad school — not to mention all the times at Halloween and in scouting groups and in historical pageants and in the town parades.
Mary Burrell was 100 percent right when she schooled me about blackface being very prevalent. Even one single case is too much, and obviously it goes on far more than that.
But at least in my experience, blackface has largely been something in the news, whereas I have been surrounded by people openly and publicly doing “redface” my entire life.
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@ Dus ‘khor Dechen
Fill in the blanks are you just obtuse, willfully ignorant or apathetic? Or are you just being a racist troll? Not sure what part of the world you live in. Your inability to comprehend that minstrelsy and black face are dehumanizing to black and brown people. You really should educate yourself on this subject and escape your ignorance. Make an attempt to do better. Because your comments show you are not worthy of intelligent discourse.
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@ Dus ‘khor Dechen
People of color are not costumes. How are is that to understand?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
How hard is it to understand that people of color are not costumes. You are being offensive and being disrespectful of their humanity.
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^^
How hard is that to understand?
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@Mary Burrell
‘Or are you just being a racist troll?’
– I am tired of explaining you, folks, that my country has a slavery background without negative racial discrimination (e. g. taking part in Black slavery trade had been declared a crime similar to piracy long before slavery has been abolished on White slaves within an empire), therefore I cannot be a racist in American sense.
Just try to think a little bit out of the box of the mental racial plague your society is infected with. Sometimes it helps.
Like, there are other countries, some of them have zero or near-zero racism niveaux — which doesn’t make them less ugly with their slavery history, of course. But still.
‘Not sure what part of the world you live in’.
– Neither am I, but for the nearmost couple of years I would prefer to stay in China.
‘Your inability to comprehend that minstrelsy and black face are dehumanizing to black and brown people’
– Since when somebody’s ‘inability to understand’ has been ‘dehumanizing’? Does this make your prosody an example of an attempt to dehumanize me because of your, to quote. ‘inability to comprehend’ my POV and your attempts of fitting it into the box of your American racial prejudices?
‘You really should educate yourself on this subject and escape your ignorance’.
– Maybe, but you are definitely far from being a decent teacher on this subject.
‘Make an attempt to do better’.
– What do you define as ‘better’? ‘A better’ what, and ‘ to whose expectations, ma’m?
‘Because your comments show you are not worthy of intelligent discourse’.
– Nah, my comments show none of that. They show my cultural and religious background, that’s all.
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@ Dus ‘knor Dechan: No, your comments show you are apathetic and dismissive of the humanity of black and brown people and how something as ugly and racist as black face has an effect on them. I read you loud and clear, carry on.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen / A Russian Nagpo
One of your biggest stumbling blocks in understanding U.S. racism is how you frame it solely as an artifact of slavery.
The way slavery/serfdom worked in Russia is not how it worked here, and the lasting impact is different. You can’t force us into your box, and vice versa.
Blackface was and is still used in dehumanizing ways, in ways that perpetuate false and harmful stereotypes. As long as white people continue to do this, it is a problem. Black people can’t just magic that problem away by switching to “European thinking” or whatever it is you’re proposing. White people have to change.
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@Solitaire
Is this Russian Nagpo? Oh then that’s what all that absent minded word salad was about. It all makes sense now. Thanks for the assist.👍🏿
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@ Mary
In May he changed his name:
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@Mar Burrell
Yes, that’s me. Then,
‘…minstrelsy and black face are dehumanizing to black and brown people’…
Does it make red wigs dehumanizing to ginger-haired people, then?
Does it make Silvermoon cusplay dehumanizing to teenager superpower girls?
I don’t expect you giving any reasonable reply other than that habitual senselss blah-blah-blah of yours, devoid of any intellectual potential or ability to understand, but maybe someone else could shed some light on this topic.
Again; what and where is a borderline between a dehumanizing and playing? What makes one jokes more offensive then others?
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@Abagond
Not ‘changed’. I has taken up my actual Buddhist name.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
I know you’re ignoring me because my yoni frightens you, but you could at least read the article on blackface that I linked to above. It would give you a starting point to understand the role blackface has played in not just dehumanizing African Americans but in abetting the erosion of their constitutional rights and igniting violence against them. It would provide answers to your questions.
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@Solitaire
Nope, I ignore you mostly because I don’t like your tone, your false and mad assumptions and, last but not least, ’cause most of the information you channel here doesn’t make any sense to me. Also, because Abagond has suggested the users here not to communicate with you.
In short, that’s because you sound both toxic and boring to me, not because of some of my private issues, which are none of your or anybody else’s business here.
FYI: ‘yoni’ is from Hindu, and I am a Buddhist, these two religions do differ :-)))
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“FYI: ‘yoni’ is from Hindu, and I am a Buddhist, these two religions do differ”
“Yoni” is from Sanskrit, which is a language not a religion, and I see you can’t take a joke.
Also, you do know where in the world Buddhism originated, I hope?
“not because of some of my private issues, which are none of your or anybody else’s business here”
And yet you’ve brought up those issues here. You’ve been quite clear in the past that your biggest problem with me is I’m a woman.
This still doesn’t explain why you won’t read the article. I didn’t write it.
“Also, because Abagond has suggested the users here not to communicate with you.”
Really??? When did this happen? Where?
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@Solitaire
Pls, try to use both of your actual eyes when reading my posts, that could help. Just like using your brain before taking an attempt to misinterpret my message next time.
I don’t have any problems with you, while your biggest problem with me is not just you being a woman, but being a boring and toxic one, for that.
I don’t think I shall have anything to say to you in the fathomable future [yawns].
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Blackface versus Cosplay
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/laurenstrapagiel/twitch-karupups-suspended-blackface-cosplay-apex
From the article:
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/kotaku.com/twitch-punishes-white-apex-legends-cosplayer-who-painte-1834055934/amp
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@Solitaire
I appreciate you. 👍🏿
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https://kotaku.com/black-cosplayers-talk-about-self-doubt-1785451928
Note that none of these cosplayers painted their skin white when playing a non-black character.
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@ Mary Burrell
Thanks. That Russian know-it-all gets my dander up.
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https://news.quirktastic.co/post/blackface-in-cosplay-its-not-a-good-look-honey/
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@Solitaire
The so called Russian know it all knows nothing he’s just glib and ignorant.
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I think nagpo was mortally offended by having been called baba yaga, oops.
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And i had curly red hair, once; clowns are not cool! It’s demeaning.
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@v8driver
You were thinking about John Wick when saying that, I bet, so no offense taken.
But in a case of you having said this in Russian prison, I should act like John Wick.
Conext and ideas of ‘personality’ are important, but that’s not all.
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@Mary Burrell
Well, and you are not even glib. But did I get it right that you think of American racial stereotypes as of ‘opposite to being ignorant’?
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So, the Blacks cosplaying the Whites wear blond wigs, but they don’t dye their skins white.
Any logic?
What makes hair less ‘racial’ or ‘insulting’ than the skin color?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
So blackface is okay but baba yaga is not. Aren’t you the special snowflake?
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@Solitaire and Mary Burrell
‘Getting one’s dander up’ and ‘glib’ were good.
Spit on your spite, ladies, that makes more for my vocabulary of American idioms.
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So, is it like ‘only a White can call the other White the s-word’ in your magical world of racial stereotypes, or what?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
““What makes hair less ‘racial’ or ‘insulting’ than the skin color?”
The history behind the practice of blackface is what makes skin color more racially insulting.
I can’t remember if it was any of the linked articles, but I have seen before where cosplayers said if there wasn’t the long history of blackface being used to mock black people and to promote deregotary stereotypes about black people, then things might be different.
Even today, many cases of blackface involve racial stereotypes like “ghetto costume parties,” so we can’t even say the negative connotations only happened in the old days.
If these racial prejudices didn’t exist, then changing the skin color in cosplay might not be any different than putting on a wig.
But those prejudices DO exist.
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“Snowflake” isn’t a racial stereotype or racial slur.
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/snowflake
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@Solitaire
So, since when did singing Belafonte’s song become ‘mocking black people’ and ‘propagating racial stereotypes’?
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@Solitaire
Wrong! Anything that is related to a skin colour is about a racial stereotype, therefore only a White can call a White the ‘s-word’… you know, those white cold melting things.
Oh, and I think we have to add up something to the fan, like a problem of tattooed people and their skin as a racial or cultural stigma.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
If a picture came to light of Barack Obama doing an Elvis Presley impression in whiteface, I am pretty sure most White people in the US would either be outraged or shocked.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
The song Trudeau chose is very similar to the types of songs the blackface minstrels used in their shows. It is in nonstandard English and is basically a work chant that would have been sung by poor blacks of the laboring class.
Now, the song itself is not bad, and there was nothing wrong with Belafonte singing it, but he did so in a respectful manner.
Arguably it would have been possible for Trudeau to also sing the song in a respectful manner. But the moment he put on blackface, he wasn’t just singing a song. He was transforming himself into a character, and that character comes uncomfortably close to the blackface minstrels who sang these types of songs in order to poke fun at uneducated poor blacks.
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@Abagond
You are living in a strange society, I think.
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“Wrong! Anything that is related to a skin colour is about a racial stereotype, therefore only a White can call a White the ‘s-word’… you know, those white cold melting things.”
I think I know my own language’s slang. The meaning has nothing to do with the color of snow but the idea that every snowflake has a unique pattern of ice crystals. No two snowflakes are alike; each one is special: hence the term “special snowflake.”
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@ Abagond
In those articles I linked to, black cosplayers got major flak for dressing up as white characters even though they didn’t use whiteface.
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@Abagond
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI_hDS4WiP8)
(They have started their entertainment career as a comic band performing the same Slavic song).
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@Solitaire
To be a language expert a mere wishful thinking is not enough. Most native speakers cannot explain the simplest structures of their languages, not to mention the idioms.
BTW, ‘a special snowflake’ is likely to be a common quotation from Palahniuk, not an actual idiom.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“To be a language expert a mere wishful thinking is not enough. Most native speakers cannot explain the simplest structures of their languages, not to mention the idioms.”
My B.A. in English is not “wishful thinking.”
“BTW, ‘a special snowflake’ is likely to be a common quotation from Palahniuk, not an actual idiom.”*
He apparently coined the term, or at least used it first in print, but it’s taken on a life of its own. People don’t quote his full sentence from Fight Club. Most people have no idea where the term even comes from. So they aren’t consciously quoting him. It’s very similar to “catch 22” in that sense.
I didn’t call it an idiom, anyway. I called it slang; there’s a difference.
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@nagpo, no it’s an old american tradition called ‘busting chops’… I called you baba yaga because you said you were a magical being from the steppes, and the sigils, and your presumptive dabbling in the occult.
John wick? Oi.
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@Solitaire
A B.A. in English is one thing, an actual ability to make a distinction between a slang and an idiom is a way the other one.
[See, now it’s your turn to prove to an idiot smth that is a common truth for you. [Chuckles]].
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@v8driver
You are warned, then :-). Btw, do you oi like a Britt or like a Russian?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
Deleted comment for using an untranslated non-English word. Also, the word is a cuss word in some dialects of Spanish.
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@ abagond
It’s no more a cuss word than the English ‘moron’ or ‘dumbhead’ is — which it actually means.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
Yeah, well, please don’t use it.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
This is what I mean about your condescending know-it-all attitude. Most people who are conversing in a foreign language wouldn’t act like they know more about it than a native speaker, especially one with a college degree specifically in that language.
You haven’t even gotten down the correct use of articles yet, so you really have no room for this smug superiority.
And your attitude is exactly the same when you approach issues of racism, acting like you know more than people of color who have both lived it and made an academic study of the history.
You can easily look up the difference between idioms and slang yourself, plus you would comprehend it better if you read about it in Russian. I have nothing to prove to you, although if I thought you were sincere, I would suggest we take the language discussion to the Open Thread.
But this isn’t a case of your wanting sincerely to learn more about English. Your comment of “now it’s your turn to prove to an idiot smth that is a common truth for you” demonstrates that this is just about scoring debate points for you. And I suspect that’s all the racism discussions are for you, too.
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@ Solitaire
He’s doesn’t come to this site in good faith and he’s ignorant and boorish. And he’s cluttering up the thread with his ignorant racist comments. You have done an exemplary job trying to teach this ignorant donkey. If he was sincere about learning he would take it upon himself to learn. Once again you have shown great patience kudos to you.
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And because I just know it’s going to come up:
Yes, I have studied other languages besides English.
No, I don’t get on the case of all non-native English speakers, only those who are being insufferable prigs.
No, you’re not the only ESL polyglot here. Munubantu, for example, has been a regular commenter for years.
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@ Abagond
I numbered the above, not with any special formatting but just “1.” etc. before each sentence.
Is there a reason WordPress dropped the numbers and the paragraph breaks? Is there a specific way to do a numbered list?
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@ Mary Burrell
Thank you kindly. To be honest, though, I’m doing it for the benefit of any lurkers. That’s the only reason for the patience.
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@Abagond
Why not? If it’s not target-specific, does it still count as an insult?
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
This is an English-language blog. To keep everything above board and everyone on the same page, all comments must be in English and provide an English translation of anything quoted in a foreign language. Otherwise it becomes a nightmare to moderate.
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@ Solitaire
I use #1, #2, etc. I have never had any luck in getting it to spit out a proper numbered list in the comments.
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@ Abagond
Thanks, I’ll try to remember that.
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My take? Well, when I stopped guffawing it wasn’t anger. I was glad. Glad because for some unfathomable reason, people think white Canadians are these nice, humble people and progressive! They are passive-aggressive if anything. Their white supremacy comes out eventually no matter how progressive they may seem. I have experienced this repeatedly as have most of my Black acquaintances.
Trudeau’s full of shit. His father, Pierre was a ‘brilliant’ man, jumped started the immigration of racialized peoples from all over, something whites, especially men detest him for to this day. Pierre was a law professor before embarking on his political career. He was great friends with Fidel Castro (whatever you think of Castro). Castro came to his funeral when he died. Pierre had a lot of political savvy. It’s obvious that his son didn’t get his brains or political savvy. I digress.
This poster on Facebook puts it succinctly, and I agree with her:
https://www.facebook.com/rose.c.handy?tn=%2CdCH-R-R&eid=ARCmcjWwe6scPDlynixVc-7dPjl4mQf2uqcKKkkbx5jG9J1JBK3lqKKpHAHfO9FgSSJ8VzjmFvfeNUKI&hc_ref=ARQ_YSQKLVGAm3mesK8Xn6ApNuN7uOi-aOGmqCNDtHcWVdhzGeeGlGaHUyVAxM3iVIw&fref=nf
Scroll down to the Sept 19 2019 post.
Rose Cathy Handy
19 September at 09:34 ·
This Blackface is NOT the Racism that concerns me
My daughter engaged me in a conversation last night after the media circus started.
When I told her that I’m not bothered by those photos generally and I’m not hurt or offended by this one. I am more offended that this will prevent a serious conversation on the real racism in Canada. I’m seeing that the media actually has airtime to allocate to a real Racism talk if they wanted to engage in that real talk. They should be using this time for it. She seemed puzzled
She: “but it’s racist to wear a blackface”
Me: ” maybe, sometimes, it depends on the intent”
She: “so you think Trudeau’s photo is not racist?”
Me: ” Honestly not this photo”
She: ” but it is racist to wear a blackface”
Me: ” That’s absolutely NOT the racism I’m concerned about. I am more concerned about these different racism
1. where over 86% of visa applications from sub-Saharan Africans are rejected in Canada
2. where school principals call the police on black kids systematically thus throwing them in the criminal justice system, but for other kids they just call the parents and talk it over
3. where landlords refuse to rent to black people especially Black single mothers in ridiculous numbers
4. where International aids to African countries are cut and the money is diverted to wars
5. where Universities reject or restrict black kids’ applications in medicine, aerospace, other stem.
6. where most governments only have 1 black cabinet member even when they have more elected representatives to choose from
7. where Crown prosecutors demand trials systematically for Black kids instead of mediation, knowing that they can’t afford lawyers
8. where the hiring processes are rigged to decrease the number of Black people who access a higher level of positions
9. where only one Black organization gets funded per cycle no matter how many apply
I can go on and on
These are the racisms I want the media to talk about, especially when there are elections. These are the racisms that affect people, not some 20 years old costume photo of a politician, an actor, an actress, an athlete…etc
This ‘scandal’ is obfuscation. Thus woman is absolutely right. It hasn’t ignited any talk of white supremacy except to excoriate this man and to take advantage for political opportunism. I find it suspect that this has come out before an election is to be called. Apparently, the source held on to this for years. The conservative candidates are using this to further their cause but they are ten times worse, a case of the pot calling the kettle.
The NDP candidate hasn’t a hope in hell of winning as many former NDP candidates have gone to the Greens, environmentalist but socially conservative. Now, what’s a person to do? I vote strategically, not emotionally.
Being a mercenary type of broad, I would band together and go to these candidates to wring concessions out of them, emotional extortion if you will. This probably won’t happen as many are too busy being outraged at his twenty-year-old antics. Factor in the diversity of cultures with the ensuing viewpoints and leanings.
Barring the above, how to choose? Well, it’s like shopping or getting your nails done or any other service for that matter; who is promising, providing the most comprehensive benefits and advantages. I have never personalized politicians for their ‘likeability’ qualities but their policies put in place and quality of governance. I wouldn’t vote otherwise!
Was this guy’s apology genuinely contrite? I think so because he is too stupid to know otherwise like 90% of his fellow white people. The only question up for debate being; was it through ignorance or is he really that dumb? Many whites mull this over in their mind when pondering their own stupidity when it comes to their white supremacy, they’re funny that way. Anything to diminish responsibility for their white supremacy.
Pharmacare (like universal health care except for meds) has been bandied about more loudly in recent years federally and provincially. Universal daycare, better treatment of First Nations people, addressing anti-black racism as it seems to be the most virulent form of white supremacy in this country. Policies that will enhance peoples’
quality of life no matter the buffoon in charge.
5, Pharmacare (like universal health care meds) has been bandied about more loudly in recent years federally and provincially. Universal daycare, better treatment of First Nations people, addressing anti-black racism as it seems to be the most virulent form of white supremacy. In other words policies that will enhance peoples’
quality of life no matter the buffoon in charge.
In closing, I couldn’t give a shit about this as it is just a smokescreen for political purposes rather than an effort to have a discussion about white supremacy nationwide. One would have to look inward honestly, can’t have that there are already enough drunkards and drug addicts. I learned long ago to expect one thing from white people; sign my paycheque. I harbour no illusions about them, individuals notwithstanding. You know what? That is liberating.
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@ Herneith
“I harbour no illusions about them, individuals notwithstanding. You know what? That is liberating.”
Certainly helped me to break free of constant disappointment. Lowering your expectations down to the level of whalebones helps, too. Everpresent anger is another matter….
Your long awaited response hit a bullseye.
Thanks!
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@Herneith
I have been waiting and so glad you gave us your take on this.
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Excellent post.
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@Herneith
”These are the racisms that affect people, not some 20 years old costume photo of a politician, an actor, an actress, an athlete…etc
This ‘scandal’ is obfuscation. Thus woman is absolutely right”
Couldn’t agree more on this.
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P.S. It is interesting, though, the pro-Trump information RCH throwing in between the lines on her page. That’s quite intertangling.
I wouldn’t care unless the Ukraine and Mr Zelesnky they’ve mentioned.
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Like an aussie or in yiddish
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@dusker/nagpo sp. Sorry, 99% of the time it’s oi vey like omg wtf, etc.
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@v8driver It’s pronounced like [DOO-KOR].
Whatever, oi all that you want.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
I deleted a comment of yours because it was nothing more than glorified name calling.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
To many people in the US your name will remind them of the word “dookie” [DOO-KEE]:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dookie
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@Abagond
To many people in the US, casual racism or white supremacy is a sort of tacit truth, yet it doesn’t make it more real or a right thing.
Personally, I don’t take any responsibility for intellectual fallacies of other. That circus is not mine, nor are the monkeys, as they say it in Poland.
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@ Abagond
”I deleted a comment of yours because it was nothing more than glorified name calling”.
So, you say that me stating being insulted here because of repeatedly being taken for what I am not is ‘nothing more than a glorified name calling’? OK, I’ve got your point.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“To many people in the US, casual racism or white supremacy is a sort of tacit truth, yet it doesn’t make it more real”
What facts can you bring to the table to demonstrate that it isn’t real?
No one is just going to take your word for it. “Oh, that guy in Russia says I’m only imagining casual racism and institutionalized white supremacy over here. Thanks for clearing that up!” That’s simply not going to happen.
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@ Solitaire
I don’t throw my pearls to swines.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
In other words, you’ve got nothing.
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@ Solitaire
In other words, I owe you no explanation of the things you are unable to understand.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“In other words, I owe you no explanation of the things you are unable to understand.”
I wasn’t asking you to explain it to me. I’m asking how you would explain it to black people who live it and experience it.
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@ DD
If you are going to lace such statements with insults, which will just lead to more insults, yes, I count that as glorified name calling.
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@ Solitaire
If/when they ask me, I will, but that’s not a business of yours.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
So far you’ve said absolutely nothing to contest my point.
All this talk of “you wouldn’t understand” and “it’s none of your business” is just hiding your inability or unwillingness to defend your statement.
Considering that I have family members who are POC and directly impacted by racism, I think it is at least somewhat my business. Certainly racism in the U.S. affects my life more than it affects yours.
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@ Solitaire
So, are your POC family members directly impacted by racism of your non-POC family members?
And I don’t say ‘you wouldn’t’, I say ‘you don’t’. To start with, it’s not racism, it’s a post-slavery. As for me, I don’t have a country I can call mine, but post-slavery scars are same for both Africans and Russians.
Anyway, I don’t think your words are worth answering.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“So, are your POC family members directly impacted by racism of your non-POC family members?”
Sometimes, although overall it seems my non-POC family members have become more aware of societal racism by witnessing what the POC family members go through, and have become protective of them to the best of their ability.
Also, white people who are part of mixed-race families usually get at least a few firsthand experiences of racism directed at themselves by other whites.
“To start with, it’s not racism, it’s a post-slavery.”
Even if this were true, it doesn’t explain racism in the U.S. against non-black POC. It doesn’t explain racism against Native Americans, Hispanics/Latinx, Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, Arabs and Persians, etc.
“post-slavery scars are same for both Africans and Russians.”
Can you tell by sight which Russians had enslaved ancestors?
“Anyway, I don’t think your words are worth answering.”
Sounds like you can’t answer them.
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@ Solitaire
Pls, don’t mistake your actual inability to comprehend my words for their actual meaning.
As for post-slavery VS racism — that is, what results in what — your suggestion could be feasible should any slavery system also come from — or comprise within itself — a racism, but the facts show quite the opposite.
And, again, you are trying to fiddle around with my words. My point is that Black history is similar to Russian history in terms of slavery and post-slavery scars, and that it is the post-slavery, not the racism, that is the actual source of problems in society.
E. g. black racism or Japanese racism, or Italian fascism under Mussolini were also racisms, but they didn’t bring too negative results because there was no slavery. Therefore, it’s the post-slavery state that is the real source of problems, not a racism, be it Black or White.
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@ Dus’khor Dechen
“And, again, you are trying to fiddle around with my words.”
I don’t see where I did that. What I see is that I asked you some questions for clarification. You didn’t answer them.
If post-slavery is exactly the same for Russians and African Americans, then it is a very valid question to ask if Russians can identify by sight those individuals who descended from slaves. Because if they can’t, then already your statement about the exact parallels becomes questionable. If a slave-descended Russian walks into a restaurant or a store, does everyone else there immediately know that before the person says one word?
“E. g. black racism or Japanese racism, or Italian fascism under Mussolini were also racisms, but they didn’t bring too negative results because there was no slavery. Therefore, it’s the post-slavery state that is the real source of problems, not a racism, be it Black or White.”
And again I will point out that this statement totally ignores or downplays racism directed at non-black racial minorities here in the U.S. This is not “fiddling with your words” to twist your meaning but pointing out a glaring omission in your reasoning.
Racism against Native Americans has had devastating effects to the point of genocide, entire tribes wiped off the face of the earth and others barely hanging on to survival. Yet you seem to be saying that if the specific racial group wasn’t enslaved, then there shouldn’t be any extremely negative results like genocide.
“My point is that Black history is similar to Russian history in terms of slavery and post-slavery scars, and that it is the post-slavery, not the racism, that is the actual source of problems in society.”
It would be helpful if you could define what you mean by “post-slavery scars.” There seems to be a whole concept you’re referring to with the term “post-slavery,” but we Americans don’t have this concept. We would only use “post-slavery” as a historical marker (i.e., to indicate that something occurred after emancipation), whereas you’re using it as a noun to indicate a concept similar to racism. It would help if you could explain in more detail what “the post-slavery” means.
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