Cory Booker, a Black senator from New Jersey who is running for US president in 2020, seems to see himself as some kind of racial healer. The early signs are not good.
On February 9th 2019, in the wake of Governor Northam’s blackface scandal in Virginia, Booker weighed in before a White audience in Marshalltown, Iowa:
“I’ve had conversations with white friends of mine this week who had the safety to come to me and ask me, ‘I don’t understand this blackface thing. Can you explain it to me?’ Imagine in this climate saying that publicly? If you want to have more courageous empathy, put yourself in a white person’s position who might have questions.”
He gave an example:
“I remember this guy – I remember his name. His name was Daniel – and he was the gay and lesbian counselor there, and he sat down with me one night and just gave me a safe space to ask him questions. What grace he extended to me to ask stupid questions and I grew.”
In conclusion:
“We – all of us, black, white, gay, straight – have to start extending grace to one another so that we can start having honest conversations with one another and leave room for growth.”
He is clearly a fan of Anne Frank:
“Wednesday January 13th 1943
“Dearest Kitty,
“I’ve had conversations with Nazi friends of mine this week who had the safety to come to me and ask me, ‘I don’t understand this Final Solution thing. Can you explain it to me?’ Imagine in this climate saying that publicly? If you want to have more courageous empathy, put yourself in a Nazi’s position who might have questions.
“We – all of us, Jews and Nazis – have to start extending grace to one another so that we can start having honest conversations with one another and leave room for growth.”
I made that up to make a point:
Cory Booker is brainwashed. He has lived too long among White people. He believes their own self-serving lies. It is that simple.
Otherwise he would know that most White people who seem like well-meaning, clueless innocents are putting on an act. Not all, to be sure, but most.
For example:
- April 4th 1968: Martin Luther King, Jr had more eloquence and more courageous empathy than any man could hope for. And yet what came of it? He was shot dead. And White society as a whole agreed: in the years that followed a White backlash rolled back the anti-racist reforms of the 1960s and added new abuses – the New Jim Crow. Not the actions of well-meaning, clueless innocents.
- November 9th 2016: Donald Trump, after an openly racist campaign for president, was elected president, getting 58% of the White vote. He is still supported by about half of all White people. Think on that. Not the actions of well-meaning, clueless innocents.
White racism is not a simple misunderstanding. Their history, their self-image, and their wealth are built right on it.
– Abagond, 2019.
See also:
- Cory Booker
- White people
- blackface
- The assassination of Martin Luther King Jr
- The New Jim Crow
- The Trump Era – the post I wrote the day he got elected
542
Abagond 
Booker doesn’t move me either. I wish Ocasio-Cortez was old enough to run. Occasio-Cortez has the fire and energy that i wish the rest of the anemic Democratic Party could get so they could grow spines and guts. Corey Booker in my opinion is too soft just an empty suit. Just like Harris i can’t just go with them because they are black. The Democrats need a King Kong to fight Trump’s Mothra. Corey Booker is not it in my opinion.
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Booker just comes off like a goof to me. It will be interesting to see how all this turns out. Obama had elan and a certain low key swagger, and i liked him as an orator. Booker And Harris are just boring to me they don’t move me at all. All his goofy kumbyya is so annoying.
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Anne Frank was a young girl when she made those naive statements even when the she and her family and community and the Jewish people were being persecuted she was still a kid. Corey Booker is an adult who should know better, i can’t tolerate this naïveté it makes him come off like a simpleton.
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Booker is not my favorite candidate, and I agree that White racism is a real problem. However, I didn’t interpret the above quote in exactly the same way. As far as I can tell, Booker is talking about friends of his who genuinely want to hear a Black perspective on an important racial issue. He remembers a time when he was also an ignorant member of an oppressive majority, in this case straight people. He thinks that honest discussion will help to solve problems.
Booker did not say, “Every racist White person is just a bit confused, and a simple conversation will heal all of the nation’s divisions.” He didn’t say, “Avid Trump supporters just need a quick explanation of blackface, and then we’ll all be in agreement.”
I think a better Anne Frank comparison would be, “I’ve had conversations with Christian friends of mine this week who had the safety to come to me and ask me, ‘I don’t understand this yellow star thing. Can you explain it to me?’” The Nazis were a political movement that individuals chose to join, while White people are a cultural group into which individuals are born. The Final Solution was a genocide, while blackface is a symbolic gesture. It’s not as if Booker said, “I’ve had conversations with KKK friends of mine this week who had the safety to come to me and ask me, ‘I don’t understand this lynching thing. Can you explain it to me?” That would be closer to the example with Nazis and the Final Solution.
To me, a less dramatic critique of Booker would be more credible and effective.
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@ Mary Burrell
Anne Frank did not really say that stuff. Abagond wrote, “I made that up to make a point”.
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@ Paige: I don’t need you explaining anything thing to me. I read the damn book. Keep your “white explaining “ to yourself.
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@ Paige
No, he said ALL:
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@ Paige
Yes, the comparison was over the top to make a point. But it was a legitimate comparison since blackface is an act of dehumanization and that is a step towards genocide:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/the-eight-stages-of-genocide-2/
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@ abagond
Yes, Booker said we all “have to start extending grace to one another so that we can start having honest conversations with one another and leave room for growth”. Do you disagree with that part? To me it sounds reasonable. He didn’t say that all Americans will magically agree and that all problems will be completely solved, just that we all have to try.
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@ abagond
Right, I understand that blackface is dehumanizing, which is why I compared it to the yellow stars.
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@ Paige
Yellow stars did cross my mind when I was writing the post, but blackface is worse than yellow stars. Blackface is step #3, yellow stars step #2:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/the-eight-stages-of-genocide-2/
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@ Mary Burrell
I’m not sure why you seem so upset. You mentioned Frank’s “naive statements,” but every “statement” of hers in this post was made up by Abagond. I just wanted to make sure you knew that, because it would have been easy to miss the one sentence in which Abagond explained what he was doing. I was trying to be helpful. I don’t see why you need to swear at me and act like my race invalidates my comment.
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@ Abagond
Okay, you have a point. Still, step three is closer to step two than to step seven.
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@Paige: I don’t see why you need to assume I didn’t understand what I was reading. Like I said I have read the Diary of Anne Frank. And yes, I said what I said, keep your explaining to yourself. I don’t need you explaining anything to me. My reading comprehension is intact.
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@ Paige: Keep your idiotic, condescension to yourself.
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@ Paige
Booker seems to live in some sort of magic bubble, so maybe his friends truly are clueless and a friendly chat is just the thing that is needed. But for most White people it has gone way beyond that level, as I tried to show in the post. Anti-Black racism in the US does not come from a lack of information. It is much worse than that.
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@ Mary Burrell
If you had paid attention to my last comment, you would have seen that I didn’t assume you couldn’t understand the post. I said that I thought you might have missed one sentence, which could happen to anyone. You didn’t mention that you were talking about Frank’s diary, so I figured you were referring to the blog post on which you were commenting.
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@ abagond
“Booker seems to live in some sort of magic bubble, so maybe his friends truly are clueless and a friendly chat is just the thing that is needed. But for most White people it has gone way beyond that level, as I tried to show in the post. Anti-Black racism in the US does not come from a lack of information. It is much worse than that.”
I mostly agree with you here, although I think a lack of correct, helpful information is a big part of the problem. “Information” in the form of blindly-repeated stereotypes and Fox News reports is a major cause of racism, from what I can see.
By the way, thanks for allowing civil discussion as always. I appreciate the fact that I can question your ideas and learn something about another person’s perspective.
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@ Paige: You need to stop posting me I am not interested in what you thought. I didn’t miss anything.
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@ Mary Burrell
If you don’t want me to reply to you, then you shouldn’t direct posts at me.
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“If you want to have more courageous empathy, put yourself in a white person’s position who might have questions.”
That’s pretty much how a lot of liberals see as a positive way to understand white people and why they’re angry and rage-filled when it comes to nonwhites. They seem to concentrate more on trying to reach out to them as opposed to get where nonwhites come from and see how they can help in ending racism and discrimination.
It’s almost the same way when dealing with criminals. Some liberals are more interested in trying to understand why they committed crimes as opposed to the victims of their crimes.
I’m not saying that’s a bad idea, but it’s a half-baked idea to try to solve a problem without considering the people most inflicted by it by focusing more on trying to understand the problem as opposed to solving the problem.
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@abagond
Didn’t Cory Booker have a friend named T-Bone?
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“November 9th 2016: Donald Trump, after an openly racist campaign for president, was elected president, getting 58% of the White vote. He is still supported by about half of all White people. Think on that. Not the actions of well-meaning, clueless innocents.”
He may be supported by more than half, depending on which poll a person is looking at and what is the question being asked.
How many Blacks spoke out against Hillary and convinced black to not vote.
Have you analyzed the Electoral College to see the reason Trump receive the votes he received. Ohio Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, swing states that Hillary failed to pay attention to. The winner takes all in at least 48 states.
Trump has a 40% base which mainly is in those states that are victims of the automobile, coal and other industries that are suffering. He has a gift of gab and he had friends among the blacks that hated the Clinton’s. The central states are always basically Republican and the Republicans are in disarray.
What impact did Bernie and Donna have on the vote.
The vast majority of black votes are in the major cities and the southeast. The balance of the population is white. Some states have as little as 1% black or even less. No wonder the people voting were white.
No matter how many blacks vote in the southeast more whites are going to vote their agenda. See the population distribution of the southern states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_African-American_population
Votes which were blocked.
The current administration is not actually anti black (they do not think about blacks unless forced to) it is pro rich, anti Obama and is supported by some kind of radical religious movement that most people do not understand.
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@ Paige
“As far as I can tell, Booker is talking about friends of his who genuinely want to hear a Black perspective on an important racial issue.”
Maybe. Or maybe these white “friends” will move on to another black person they know, and another, and another, until they find a black person who will tell them blackface is no big deal. That’s a common thing that majority members do when they don’t really want to challenge their own beliefs, regardless of what majority we’re discussing.
This is the thing: why do these white people feel they need to go to Booker or someone else they personally know to get “a Black perspective on an important racial issue”?
I’m going to use Cory Booker’s example as my illustration. As you said: “He remembers a time when he was also an ignorant member of an oppressive majority, in this case straight people.”
But Cory Booker didn’t just ask a random gay friend: “Daniel . . . was the gay and lesbian counselor there,” meaning that Daniel was a trained professional who got paid for (among other things) outreach to and education of straight people on LGBT issues.
This is a point that Booker himself seems to have missed. Daniel was trained and paid to create that safe space and answer his questions. It was a profession that Daniel chose. It’s NOT the same thing as asking a gay friend or a gay coworker or a gay neighbor to create that safe space and answer those questions.
From long experience of living with someone who does similar work professionally and also knowing many other people in the same field, I can tell you that it isn’t easy on them emotionally. But they’re trained and educated not to show anger or frustration in discussions like the one Booker had with Daniel.
The minority friend or neighbor or coworker doesn’t have this educational background, nor are they getting paid to create that safe space. They shouldn’t have to if they don’t want to. They shouldn’t feel somehow beholden to discuss controversial racial issues with any white acquaintance who asks.
“I think a lack of correct, helpful information is a big part of the problem.”
I disagree in the sense that the information is out there. Google exists. There are tons of black-authored opinion pieces on the internet about the issue of blackface. Anyone who is ready to step out of their echo chamber can do so without badgering their black friend, neighbor, or coworker.
To go back to the LGBT example, I was very homophobic and ignorant until my early 20s. I worked my way out of that without ever once asking a gay friend something like “I don’t understand why drag is okay for you but not for us” or “I don’t understand why ‘f~g’ is so offensive.”
This isn’t because I didn’t have gay friends. What sparked my whole transformation is that some friends of mine started coming out as LGBT. I listened to them when they wanted to talk, and I learned a lot by listening, but I saved my ignorant, potentially offensive questions for my straight friends who were further along the path than I was. I also did a lot of reading that helped answer those questions.
And this was in the 1980s. We didn’t have the internet and podcasts and YouTube and anonymous online discussion forums. It took a concerted effort to find positive LGBT information back then. Yet somehow I managed never to burden my LGBT friends with the onus of answering my ignorant questions and challenging my stupid offensive stereotypes.
“‘Information’ in the form of blindly-repeated stereotypes and Fox News reports is a major cause of racism, from what I can see.”
Is it a cause or a symptom?
Again, it is infinitesimally easier to access “correct, helpful information” than it used to be. People who want to remain in an echo chamber do so willingly.
“Yes, Booker said we all ‘have to start extending grace to one another so that we can start having honest conversations with one another and leave room for growth’. Do you disagree with that part? To me it sounds reasonable.”
On one hand, it does sound reasonable. On the other hand, black people are tired of extending grace to no avail. Martin Luther King extended grace, and he was assassinated. The Charleston 9 extended grace, and they were gunned down in a prayer meeting. When do white people start to extend grace? When do white people begin to create safe spaces for blacks and other non-whites to live their lives and say their prayers without fear?
“He didn’t say that all Americans will magically agree and that all problems will be completely solved, just that we all have to try.”
White people are not trying hard enough. People of color shouldn’t have to try this hard. The domestic violence parallel has been used on this site many times before. This is like saying that the abused partner just needs to keep trying to explain to the abuser why the abuse is harmful.
“I’m not sure why you seem so upset. You mentioned Frank’s ‘naive statements,’ but every ‘statement’ of hers in this post was made up by Abagond. I just wanted to make sure you knew that, because it would have been easy to miss the one sentence in which Abagond explained what he was doing. I was trying to be helpful. I don’t see why you need to swear at me and act like my race invalidates my comment.”
I don’t want to speak for Ms. Mary here, but I will say that you need to consider your words are not coming from a vacuum. No one has forgotten the Cesaria Evora: Sodade thread.
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I will also add that there are communities, schools, and other societal institutions that have created programs or groups for these types of discussions. In facr, “difficult dialogues” is one of the common names for such programs.
If someone who is white wants to join a community organization expressly designed to create a safe space for questions about race, that’s fine. Even if all the non-white members are laypeople instead of professionals, they are there because they want to be. It’s okay to address issues like blackface in these groups during the scheduled meetings.
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I don’t see why you need to swear at me and act like my race invalidates my comment.
This is what Black people encounter every day, perhaps minus the ‘swearing’.
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This guy seems like a kerchief head. That’s like asking a rape victim to try and understand their rapist.
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This article is spot on. Nothing more to add.
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“I’ve had conversations with white friends of mine this week who had the safety to come to me and ask me, ‘I don’t understand this blackface thing. Can you explain it to me?” – Cory Booker
Personally, I consider it to be quite odd for a so-called white person to ask a black person about a “blackface” incident. To me, it would’ve been more meaningful and perhaps more sincere for a white person to either ask the person who committed the act or at least another white person who may be able to shed some light on this country’s deeply racist past and present. But not the people or someone supposedly from the group that was offended.
Imagine in this climate saying that publicly? If you want to have more courageous empathy, put yourself in a white person’s position who might have questions.” – Cory Booker
WHAT?? You mean to tell me that Black folk must somehow put forth an effort by metaphorically placing ourselves in white people’s shoes and understand racist white people’s ungovernable urge to continually make mockery and commit themselves to dehumanizing acts targeting us (ADOS). Really?
It seems to me that what Corey is trying to do is reverse the roles of the victim and defender, so that white people could then be exonerated.
Thanks to the Corey Bookers and Kamala Harris’ for their morsel of word salads and for responding to direct question and or incidents by indirectly responding. (SMDH)
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Corey is NOT going to find a soft, cushy place to reconcile with white folks, he’s going to hit the ground hard, on his face. I am trying to figure out if he doesn’t know that he’s being groomed into a “rent a negro” by whites, or if he’s putting the advertising out himself.
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^^^ I meant offender, not defender ^^^
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Further more, we have “no ‘splaining to do” to white folks, because their racism will do all that for them.
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Looks like Mr. Booker is politicking to his target electorate (liberal but clueless whites) by acknowledging that they feel some pain over this white guilt that they don’t know how to fix.
It if were me, I would require all whites (actually, all Americans) to take a black studies class in high school in order to graduate. Might as well do an Asian American studies, Chicano studies and Native American/ Hawaiian/Inuit studies class while we are at it. LGBT studies class might be good too. The solution to cluelessness is education, not empathy.
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Blackface America https://mailchi.mp/cfa354079f61/northam-controversy-symptom-of-a-bigger-problem-1422889
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Racism lays the golden egg for white people. It is free labour, it is consistent superiority, it is free access to resources and minerals. It is a “good deal”. Best believe it is intentional and best believe they will do everything they can to keep it that way. They don’t want to have the fate of non-whites. Keeps them up at night. Would you let go of the gift that keeps on giving? Nope. Black people need to understand that no one is giving up convenience and a luxurious stay on this planet to “do the right thing”. The right thing has been known. If you step on a foot accidentally, you would probably say sorry in case it hurt the person. They know racism hurts black people. Which is why we do not need this kind of confusion about needing to educate the clueless racist. He/she is not clueless. If you’re black and think so, you may need a clue.
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“Cory Booker is brainwashed. He has lived too long among White people. He believes their own self-serving lies. It is that simple.
Otherwise he would know that most White people who seem like well-meaning, clueless innocents are putting on an act. Not all, to be sure, but most.”
Ok, now put this knowledge in the form of a campaign platform meant to attract a majority White electorate.
“I remember this guy – I remember his name. His name was Daniel – and he was the gay and lesbian counselor there, and he sat down with me one night and just gave me a safe space to ask him questions. What grace he extended to me to ask stupid questions and I grew.”
So, why didn’t Mr. Booker “grow” enough to come out of the closet? How’s that for an incendiary take on Mr. Booker? I’m not “gay bashing”, just being a bit malicious for the fun of it, because, as they used to say on “Seinfeld”: “Not that there’s anything wrong with that”.
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Wow my comment caught in moderation. Is it because of the word a$inine? That is a word.
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“ I think a lack of correct, helpful information is a big part of the problem.” Seriously? Are you kidding me? That’s dumb. Here’s a thought. How about just being a decent human and listening to black people when they tell you that you have done or said something offensive. Instead of being tone def and obtuse. Listen and just shut up and learn something and get some self reflection. Stop being a condescending and patronizing jerk. And it boggles my mind in 2019 black folks have to tell white folks that blackface and other disgusting forms of anti-blackness is offensive and hurtful and harmful. News flash it’s not the job of black people to teach white people how to fix racism and white supremacy, we didn’t create this system. It’s up to whites who benefit from this system to fix this problem that they created. White people need to use their privilege and power for good and do better.
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“Corey Booker is brainwashed” He has lived too long among White people. He believes their own self serving lies, it is that simple. Bless his heart. Corey Booker needs to wake up and smell the coffee and take off his rose colored glasses and see the dominant culture for what it really is. Not all white People should be thrown in the garbage. There are some decent and good white people in society. But they arre not all doing despicable and horrible things. But there is a large number of them that are, see the insane political cult of Trump supporters. And if Booker or Harris want to do battle to get Trump out of office they better be ready to do battle. Stop playing checkers and learn how to be strategic and play chess our democracy is on life support.
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@walterharrisgavin: Nice blog good points made.
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@walterharrisgavin: Thanks for sharing Robin De Angelo she is a great teacher and truth teller. I was made aware of her when she was a guest on an episode of Chauncey DeVega on his podcast. She talked about “whiteness and white fragility.” I admire her and Tim Wise they are out trying to teach other white people about racism and white supremacy. I can actually respect these two white people.
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I typed up a post about his comments (but accidentally lost it) which made basically the same couple points gro jo did. IMO, Booker’s comments don’t reflect genuine naivete just the typical calculating character of a politician.
1)
The bottom line is that he needs white votes to become President so he’ll make sure to signal to them that he’s not an “angry black man”. To that end, he’ll tell them exactly what he knows they want to hear. For the black votes, he’ll rely on his racial identification.
2)
The “casual” analogy he gave about the gay and lesbian counselor that he had “questions” for is likely a calculation as well. It certainly implies that he is definitely NOT gay which is a way to obliquely reinforce his denial of previous rumors.
Of course, it makes political sense to deny such (marginalizing) rumors and to assure white people that he’s not a threat. However also it suggests that he’s willing to distance himself from the concerns of his natural constituency to get white votes while expecting the former to support him on the basis of the same bonds he publicly diminishes. Who is he fooling, those to whom he panders or his natural constituency?
What’s in his heart? (hah)
Oreo or lychee?
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@Origin: Great post and good points made. Playing the gushing “Awwl shucks” pandering rented negro is probably a smart strategy. And he has been in this politricks game for a while. But he still doesn’t impress me and him or Harris will not be getting my vote.
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@ Solitaire
I appreciate your calm and thoughtful response. I don’t completely disagree with you, but here are some points I want to make:
~ While it’s true that not every member of a minority group wants to explain issues to others, Booker seems happy to have discussions about race.
~ I think a lot of people don’t even realize how much of an echo chamber they live in. It’s the old “fish don’t know they’re in water” phenomenon.
~ I definitely agree that racism and mass shootings are serious problems that White people should try harder to solve. However, realistically, Black people also need to continue participating in honest discussions so that we can find more solutions. If you want to use an abusive relationship metaphor, the battered wife should show up for the couples therapy sessions in order to help create positive change. Should she be in this situation in the first place? No. Is it her fault? No. Still, sometimes we have to do what is practical instead of what is ideal. I shouldn’t have to lock my door when I leave in the morning, but I do because someone might rob me. Theft is wrong, but I acknowledge that people do it anyway, and I act accordingly.
~ Mary is obviously free to disagree with what I said in the Cesaria thread. I even admitted that I phrased some of my ideas poorly, leaving my comments open to understandably negative interpretations. However, I will not converse with people who are being disrespectful. I don’t believe that any disagreements Mary may have with me would justify her rudeness. I do not swear at her or imply that her race invalidates her comments, even when I don’t agree with her.
@ Herneith
I know that Black people’s perspectives are often invalidated, which is completely unfair. However, that doesn’t justify Black people turning around and invalidating the comments of others based on race! An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, as they say.
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@ Origin: “Oreo or Lychee “ Perhaps Booker is a little or both. Thank for giving me fresh perspective and seeing the big picture.
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@MB,
Thanks for reminding me about Tim Wise. He should be the one to help educate white people. That is what he does for a living. I couldn’t find anything on line about him and the Virginia governor issue. In fact, he seems much more quiet post-Trump than he was during the Obama administration.
Anyhow, Booker doesn’t need all whites to back him. 40% is enough to win the presidency. Just the urban / suburban white liberals who want someone who makes them feel enlightened and lessen their guilt.
Thinking now that the right white president might do more for POC then the likes of POC-identified candidates who pander to white liberals.
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@Paige: Wow, you just proved how white fragility is a real thing. Robin Diangelo is an excellent teacher and truth teller. Perhaps you should read her book on White Fragility. And perhaps you should read some of Tim Wise’s books they have a lot to teach white people like yourself who are living in bubbles. You really have no idea how condescending and patronizing you were. I am not sorry for swearing/cursing at you because you refuse to do any self reflection. Your “white explaining, talking down to the “dumb colored” like you were doing me a damn favor. No I am not sorry and you need to get out of your fragile feelings. Like I said “white fragility “ is a real thing. You are a perfect example of what Dr. Diangelo is trying to teach her fellow white sisters and brothers. You have a good night.
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@Jefe: Tim Wise has an excellent podcast Speak Out. He is out here doing the work and teaching and telling truth. Just like Robin Diangelo and many more respect people like them that are doing the work to try and dismantle white supremacy.
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@ Mary Burrell
I will never believe that asking to be treated with respect is a sign of fragility. I will also never believe that trying to help someone is wrong. If I thought Black people were dumb, I would not be reading Abagond’s blog in the first place. I never asked you to apologize to me, so it’s interesting that you feel the need to defend your lack of apology.
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@ Paige: Girl, Good night. I am going to enjoy eating my Valentine chocolates and drinking my wine.
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@ Paige
“Booker seems happy to have discussions about race.”
That’s all fine and good, but Booker should not be pandering to whites by suggesting that black people in general have some sort of moral obligation to gently educate them about their racism.
“I think a lot of people don’t even realize how much of an echo chamber they live in.”
There is some truth to your statement. The obvious question is, what do you think white people who step out of the echo chamber should do to communicate that fact to those white people still in it? How do white people break apart the echo chamber that white people built?
“However, realistically, Black people also need to continue participating in honest discussions so that we can find more solutions.”
One reason black people stop participating is because white people don’t listen to their proposed solutions. If you want black people to remain in the discussion, you have to do what Mary said above: LISTEN. And not just listening while mentally preparing the way you’re going to shoot down their proposed solutions, but actually valuing their ideas and their feedback.
If you want black people to remain in the discussion, you also cannot shut them out due to some perceived disrespect to yourself. You have to be willing to remain present, open, and engaged even when it hurts.
You have to be ready to accept that you may actually have done something to warrant an angry or frustrated response. You may have hurt someone and they are trying to tell you that, which trumps any “disrespect” you may think they are showing you while trying to communicate their hurt.
If you want there to be a discussion at all, you cannot do what you did on the ADOS thread and say something you know from past experience is controversial but then in the same breath announce that you won’t bother to check the thread for any replies.
“If you want to use an abusive relationship metaphor, the battered wife should show up for the couples therapy sessions in order to help create positive change.”
Current consensus is that couples therapy is not effective in situations of domestic abuse. Domestic abusers have extremely high recidivism rates. The abused partner has to get out, and get out alive. If there is any chance of couples therapy working, the abused partner cannot and must not be living in the same house as the abuser at the commencement of therapy, and the abuser must be undergoing extensive concurrent personal therapy with a sincere desire to change.
To continue the analogy, this is why you will sometimes see conversations here where black commenters discuss the possibility of moving to an African nation or the possibility of establishing their own black-majority nation out of part of the current U.S. It is the same reason abused partners leave their abuser.
The only way white people are going to change is if they, like the abusive partner, do some extremely difficult work involving deep introspection and dismantling of internal denial, and that doesn’t even begin to address the next step where white people have to dismantle the institutionalized racism still inherent in so many of our societal structures.
About this:
“I appreciate your calm and thoughtful response.”
and this:
“I will not converse with people who are being disrespectful. I don’t believe that any disagreements Mary may have with me would justify her rudeness. I do not swear at her or imply that her race invalidates her comments, even when I don’t agree with her.”
I’m really tired of you thanking people for being calm and polite and civil. You’re using it in a passive-aggressive manner that I find offensive. I’m asking you now never to thank me for such ever again.
You’re doing this:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/the-tone-argument/
You did it to me on the Cesaria Evora thread, and now you’re doing it to Mary Burrell on this thread. And your announcement on the ADOS thread of “la-la-la-my-fingers-are-in-my-ears” was basically a way of saying: “I’m afraid of the tone of the responses, so I’m not going to look at them.”
I want you to understand something. For the last year, ever since the Cesaria Evora thread, I have been actively ignoring you. Until the ADOS thread, I have refrained from replying to you or even obliquely referring to anything you said.
Mary has been much more forgiving. She has “liked” many of your comments and occasionally told you something nice and complimentary about what you said.
Even at the end of the Cesaria Evora thread, Mary was blunt but forgiving, encouraging you to continue to work on yourself, and even provided you with a very good reading list of pertinent books. At the time, I was awed by her gentleness with you. Now I wonder if you even saw it, or if you stopped reading that thread entirely after you stopped commenting.
You also need to understand that there are multiple types of disrespect. It is arguable that using swear words is much less disrespectful than the type of obtuse white superiority you evidence. Your comments about sharecroppers on the Cesaria Evora thread were intensely disrespectful and deserved far more cussing in response than you actually got.
If you continue to dictate the terms by which you will and will not engage in these discussions concerning race, you are essentially insisting on your “right” as a white person to make the rules, as well as insulating yourself from anything that might challenge you to examine yourself more critically than you want.
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“If you want to use an abusive relationship metaphor, the battered wife should show up for the couples therapy sessions in order to help create positive change.”
No. If someone beats you then you leave. You then tell your big brother and he goes out and beats the man with a plank. Then maybe the man will think twice before beating another women. That’s positive change.
Racists gets stifled the same way.
The problem is WP have a monopoly on violence and economy. Change will come when WP no longer are a majority and the economy becomes absorbed by those who are not white.
As others up thread have pointed out Mr. Booker phrases his political rhetoric in a way that will not make white people feel uncomfortable. We can all have conversations and have empathy with those who are different. It sounds good but leads nowhere and resonates with the paternalism of the political class.
I am not opposed to education in schools that Jefe mentioned. But I wonder who will write the curriculum ? The victors always write the history and I suspect it gets framed in a way that won’t offend whites. The idea that WP would write or control the curriculum bothers me.
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If I were a battered wife and went to Cory Booker for help he would, in real life, try to help ME and my children. Only if he were FRIENDS with my abusive husband would he urge me to go back to my husband and try to see it from his point of view and talk it out. Because his loyalty would be to my husband, not to me. He would not have my best interests at heart.
And that is a good summary of what he is doing here in regards to White people and Black people. His ultimate loyalty is not to Black people.
That is precisely why Obama had to throw Rev. Wright under the bus and, by extension, all Black people. He had to prove to White people where his ultimate loyalties lay.
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“However, realistically, Black people also need to continue participating in honest discussions so that we can find more solutions.” – Paige
@Paige, when Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, Fred Hampton, Martin Luther King, Huey P. Newton, Bobby Seale and many other so-called African Americans or ADOS stood up, and attempted to have an honest discussion about race, guess what, the vast majority of them ended in assassination. To me, that was Amerika’s response almost each and every time that courageous Black men and women stood up and literally begged this country for an honest discussion about oppression, poverty, mass incarceration, police shootings, lynching and discrimination and so forth.
Therefore, I feel it’s only appropriate that I flip the question. So, … when did white Amerika awaken from their collective stupor of playing the role of having been enamoured with the tabula rasa of normalcy in their honest dealings regarding the descendants of slaves in this country and attempted to hold an honest discussion surrounding the issues listed above?
Would you be so kind to answer this simple question for me and thanks in advance for your honest reply.
By the way, are you Jewish?
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@ Paige
I want to clarify a couple things.
I said to you earlier:
“I don’t want to speak for Ms. Mary here, but I will say that you need to consider your words are not coming from a vacuum. No one has forgotten the Cesaria Evora: Sodade thread.”
Your response was:
“Mary is obviously free to disagree with what I said in the Cesaria thread.”
But that’s not what I meant. I wasn’t talking about any lingering disagreements over the subject matter in that thread, but rather who you revealed yourself to be on that thread. That’s going to affect people’s perception of you and their interpretation of your subsequent commentary.
You also said upthread, multiple times, that Mary Burrell was acting “like my race invalidates my comment.”
That’s not what Mary said. She wrote that you were “white explaining.” That’s a specific behavior, sometimes called “whitesplaining.”
Mary called you out for a specific behavior, not a blanket invalidation because of your race.
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@ Solitaire
“That’s all fine and good, but Booker should not be pandering to whites by suggesting that black people in general have some sort of moral obligation to gently educate them about their racism.”
I don’t know what Booker’s motives were when he said what Abagond quoted. Maybe he’s a slimeball who’s simply pandering to White people. I took his statements at face value and figured he wanted to help unite the country.
“There is some truth to your statement. The obvious question is, what do you think white people who step out of the echo chamber should do to communicate that fact to those white people still in it? How do white people break apart the echo chamber that white people built?”
I guess it depends on the situation. In general, I think White people have to help Black people become more successful so that our society won’t be so one-sided. Here are some ideas off the top of my head: giving reparations, upholding affirmative action, requiring that police officers wear body cams and keep them on, ending the War on Drugs, fighting voter suppression, participating in protests and email campaigns against racial injustice, having thoughtful discussions with those still in the echo chamber, voting for progressive politicians, supporting Black organizations, and befriending Black people. I’m sure I’ve missed something.
“If you want black people to remain in the discussion, you also cannot shut them out due to some perceived disrespect to yourself. You have to be willing to remain present, open, and engaged even when it hurts.”
I have to disagree here. No one should be disrespectful. At one point in my life, I was afraid to stand up for myself, but now I refuse to have discussions with people who aren’t behaving reasonably.
“You have to be ready to accept that you may actually have done something to warrant an angry or frustrated response. You may have hurt someone and they are trying to tell you that, which trumps any “disrespect” you may think they are showing you while trying to communicate their hurt.”
I will certainly admit that I make mistakes and hurt people now and then. My comment about sharecroppers, which was phrased in a casual way that could easily be interpreted as flippant, is a good example. However, people still shouldn’t be “trying to tell me” something in a blatantly rude and disrespectful way. We’re not talking about toddlers who don’t know how to communicate properly. If grown adults feel hurt, they can take a few deep breaths, maybe even step away from their electronic device for a while, and then engage in a calm and reasonable discussion. I generally give others that level of respect, and I expect to be treated similarly.
“If you want there to be a discussion at all, you cannot do what you did on the ADOS thread and say something you know from past experience is controversial but then in the same breath announce that you won’t bother to check the thread for any replies.”
On the ADOS thread, I wanted to share my thoughts for any unbiased reader who might be interested, instead of creating a repeat of the unproductive Cesaria discussion. I have every right to not return to a post, and I think it’s polite to notify others when I won’t be reading their replies. That way, they won’t waste their time. Also, I was careful not to say anything like my sharecropper comment that triggered the whole argument.
“The only way white people are going to change is if they, like the abusive partner, do some extremely difficult work involving deep introspection and dismantling of internal denial, and that doesn’t even begin to address the next step where white people have to dismantle the institutionalized racism still inherent in so many of our societal structures.”
I agree. I’m still learning myself.
“I’m really tired of you thanking people for being calm and polite and civil. You’re using it in a passive-aggressive manner that I find offensive. I’m asking you now never to thank me for such ever again.”
I will respect your wishes, although I don’t see how it’s passive-aggressive to compliment people for their kindness, especially when others are lowering the communal standards of behavior.
“You’re doing this:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/the-tone-argument”
In Abagond’s post on the tone argument, he writes, “The tone argument is where you object to someone else’s argument based on its tone: it is too angry, too hateful, not calm enough, not nice enough, etc. It is a logical fallacy because none of those things has anything to do with whether the truth was spoken.” That’s not what I’m doing. I’m not saying that commenters are automatically incorrect because of their tone; I’m just saying that I’m not going to listen to their arguments if they’re presented rudely. When someone like you or Mary communicates politely, I happily read your statements and consider your points.
“I want you to understand something. For the last year, ever since the Cesaria Evora thread, I have been actively ignoring you. Until the ADOS thread, I have refrained from replying to you or even obliquely referring to anything you said.”
Okay. You’re obviously free to ignore me if you like, although I seem to remember that you replied to me recently about racism in Oregon.
“Mary has been much more forgiving. She has ‘liked’ many of your comments and occasionally told you something nice and complimentary about what you said.”
I know. That’s part of the reason why I was so baffled when she suddenly began to act quite differently in this thread.
“Even at the end of the Cesaria Evora thread, Mary was blunt but forgiving, encouraging you to continue to work on yourself, and even provided you with a very good reading list of pertinent books. At the time, I was awed by her gentleness with you. Now I wonder if you even saw it, or if you stopped reading that thread entirely after you stopped commenting.”
I left that thread and never went back, because I felt it had become entirely unproductive. I’m sorry for not making it clearer that I wasn’t going to be involved at all anymore. From now on I’ll communicate my intent better, as I did in the ADOS thread. Like I said above, I don’t want to waste people’s time.
“You also need to understand that there are multiple types of disrespect. It is arguable that using swear words is much less disrespectful than the type of obtuse white superiority you evidence. Your comments about sharecroppers on the Cesaria Evora thread were intensely disrespectful and deserved far more cussing in response than you actually got.”
I regret the way I casually mentioned the sharecroppers. I can see why some people felt that their ancestors were being disrespected. However, I don’t believe that anyone deserves rudeness. Even when people are disrespectful to me, I try to be civil to them. Worst case, if communicating with them is completely unproductive, I generally just disengage and move along. I was taught that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, you shouldn’t say anything at all.” I don’t always follow that advice perfectly, but I think it’s what everyone should strive for.
“If you continue to dictate the terms by which you will and will not engage in these discussions concerning race, you are essentially insisting on your ‘right’ as a white person to make the rules, as well as insulating yourself from anything that might challenge you to examine yourself more critically than you want.”
I’m not making any rules. I’m reminding people of the basic rules of human society. I am happy to evaluate challenging, critical ideas that are presented as part of a civil discussion. I’ve just spent a good chunk of my Saturday evaluating yours!
“Mary called you out for a specific behavior, not a blanket invalidation because of your race.”
Mary wrote, “Keep your ‘white explaining’ to yourself.” My comment didn’t relate to race at all, so calling it “white explaining” was unnecessary and disrespectful. I wouldn’t say to you that I didn’t want to hear your “middle-aged explaining,” unless maybe you were rudely trying to tell me what it’s like to be a millennial or something similar that actually related to age. I was trying to help Mary. If people politely try to give me help and I don’t need it, I thank them anyway and move along.
@ Michael Barker
“You then tell your big brother and he goes out and beats the man with a plank.”
Wow, I strongly disagree. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
@ abagond
“If I were a battered wife and went to Cory Booker for help he would, in real life, try to help ME and my children. Only if he were FRIENDS with my abusive husband would he urge me to go back to my husband and try to see it from his point of view and talk it out. Because his loyalty would be to my husband, not to me. He would not have my best interests at heart.”
Maybe he would encourage you to do what Solitaire mentioned: couples therapy with the abused partner removed from immediate harm, and the abuser receiving individual therapy as well.
@ blakksage
“when did white Amerika awaken from their collective stupor of playing the role of having been enamoured with the tabula rasa of normalcy in their honest dealings regarding the descendants of slaves in this country and attempted to hold an honest discussion surrounding the issues listed above?”
Some individual White Americans have attempted to hold honest discussions about racial injustice, although unfortunately White America as a whole hasn’t been very helpful on that front.
“By the way, are you Jewish?”
No, why do you ask?
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@Paige
“Two wrongs don’t make a right” is a religious proverb designed to protect hierarchical societies.
You need to be a good slave, wife, servant, worker ect. To resist is wrong.
So while you may believe that a violent response to violence is wrong, it is acceptable from an ethical and moral point of view.
If a moral standard or social rule is violated between two people of differing individual agency (where there is a power disparity) then other individuals or groups within society can act on behalf of the powerless to keep them from being unfairly disadvantaged. In specific circumstances violations of social rules can be defensible if done as direct action to social violations.
Justice is about making whole the victum. In terms of domestic abuse the settlement isn’t compensation for a financial loss but rather an end to violence towards the victim. Thus the predator is beaten and given a lesson in pain.
This is how society did things for 10,000 years before things became overtly “civilized”.
Mr. Brooker also thinks that two wrongs don’t make a right. Calling out racism and white supremacy might offend some people and that would be wrong instead of right.
Instead black people must extend “courageous empathy” towards bigots who wear blackface and have the “grace” to have a conversation with them so that bigots can try to understand how dehumanizing it is.
That’s crazy. Abagond is right. He is brainwashed.
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Edit: Mr. Booker instead of Mr. Brooker.
Mr. Booker is calling on black people to solve racism by putting themselves into a white person’s racist postion. Unbelievable.
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Geez, it looks like we have a living breathing example here of the exact type of thing Cory Booker is asking for, ie, asking POC to help assuage white guilt by empathizing with them, and THIS will help unite the country.
willfully obtuse?
Seems like Booker knows exactly who his target audience is. (or maybe he doesn’t think about it precisely in those terms, but he knows whom he wants to hear his message.
So, we need more white saviours for all the helpless darkies? I was just thinking about Emma Stone’s character in “The Help”.
I guess that includes people like Cory Booker, who can help them assuage their guilt and bolster their fragile White ego.
But to every other reader of the comments, they are thinking of the tone argument. Are all the readers somehow delusional? I don’t see anyone being rude to the person making the tone argument back. “If you only talk to me nicely …..”
How?
Again, white saviour and helpless Darkie.
@MJB
well, it seems that that is still the way a POC identified individual feels he must act to attract enough white voters.
Only that it is not true. AOC got a majority of the white vote in Astoria, Queens.
Maybe Booker has been around white corporate democrats for so long that that is the only M.O. he has learned.
I don’t want another POC president who will not hesitate to throw POC under the bus to appease white guilt. We had that already.
I am thinking that for 2020 maybe we need white president a little more like Tim Wise to address the racial divides in this country. The only potential candidate who looks even remotely close to that would be Beto O’Rourke. All the other white candidates are either corporate democrats or have flip-flopped. But then we do need a Bernie-ish type person to heal the class divides too.
But by 2024, AOC will be old enough. She can hit both bases.
And she can hit climate change and trashing the environment as well.
I will also be watching her on how she proceeds on the other divides re: Native Americans and the ones treated as “Perpetual foreigners” (which I wouldn’t exactly label as “racial divides”, but the other divides in US society that historically have separated white people from others).
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@ Paige
“I seem to remember that you replied to me recently about racism in Oregon.”
You’re right. That slipped my mind, and I don’t recall offhand which thread it was on. Now that you mention it, I remember that I did think long and hard about whether to respond but finally decided the context I wanted to add could be too beneficial to lurkers to omit.
“I don’t see how it’s passive-aggressive to compliment people for their kindness, especially when others are lowering the communal standards of behavior.”
Because when you do it, you’re policing the tone.
I understand your point about wanting people to treat you with the same type of respect you consider to be standard. But this is not your blog. It is Abagond’s blog.
Now, it is true that Abagond has set up auto-moderation to catch some swear words — but not all of them, including ones that you have recently objected to. Also, he often allows the moderated words through, especially if they are in comments by frequent posters. Lastly, Abagond has himself dropped more than one uncensored F-bomb in his own comments. It’s rare, but he has done it.
All of this suggests the general conclusion that the person running the blog has not entirely forbidden cussing within the community.
If you’ve paid much attention, you will know that Mary Burrell and I both swear at times. You will know that other frequent posters cuss as well, and you will know that Herneith not only complains about not being able to let loose with her extensive blue vocabulary but also comes up with some of the most creative scatalogical workarounds.
It’s interesting in the quote above that, right after you say you don’t understand how the compliments are passive-aggressive, you describe exactly the dynamic I was referring to. As far as I have observed, you only compliment and thank people for polite behavior in two situations. The first is when you believe someone else has been rude to you. What you said along those complimentary lines to both Abagond and myself in this thread could easily be seen as a passive-aggressive way of further rebuking Mary Burrell. (The other type of situation is when you’ve said something that people are disagreeing with and you thank them for remaining civil; it comes across — to me at least — not so much as a sincere compliment but a passive-aggressive way of trying to keep the tone from becoming heated and to avoid dealing with the fact that you’ve offended people.)
Another reason I object to it is that by complimenting my tone, you made a value judgment placing me, a white person, in hierarchical juxtaposition with Mary, a black person. You made it clear that, on this thread, you found my tone more acceptable than hers. You may not have done this with conscious intent, but it is a dynamic you should always be aware of, especially considering the historical and ongoing devaluing and diminishing of black women’s righteous anger. I resent your placing me on your “good behavior” pedestal when in fact I side with Mary.
And yes, Abagond is black, not white — but if you paid any attention at all, you would have seen that we were just talking on the ADOS thread about Abagond’s being non-ADOS. You would have also seen the tension on that thread between some commenters of ADOS and non-ADOS descent. Your thanking Abagond for his good behavior in this thread could very well be seen by readers as placing him, a non-ADOS, in juxtaposition with Mary Burrell, an ADOS, in much the same way as you did with Mary and me. The fact that you have already come down hard on the non-ADOS side of the divide would further suggest this interpretation of your remark, whether or not that was your conscious intent.
“That’s not what I’m doing. I’m not saying that commenters are automatically incorrect because of their tone; I’m just saying that I’m not going to listen to their arguments if they’re presented rudely. When someone like you or Mary communicates politely, I happily read your statements and consider your points.”
No, you don’t. You leave the thread and don’t come back to see if the person in question has changed their tone. Your refusal to hear them out because you object to their tone means you dismiss their arguments unheard. And that is part of the tone argument, as per Abagond’s example from that post: “We would listen to you if you said it more nicely.”
“I have every right to not return to a post, and I think it’s polite to notify others when I won’t be reading their replies. That way, they won’t waste their time.”
It wasn’t polite. It’s saying to everyone that you think your thoughts are important enough that people should read them, but their thoughts on what you said aren’t important enough for you to waste your time reading them.
“I know. That’s part of the reason why I was so baffled when she suddenly began to act quite differently in this thread.”
Why didn’t you ask her? You immediately went on the defensive, plus the pearl-clutching over one little “damn.” There are other ways to respond. You could, for example, have said: “I’m not sure why you seem so upset. I obviously offended you, but was it what I said, or more how I said it? I didn’t mean to say anything hurtful, and I would appreciate your feedback.”
“I’m reminding people of the basic rules of human society.”
Which basic rules? Where is it written? In all societies everywhere? And who made you the arbiter?
“My comment didn’t relate to race at all, so calling it ‘white explaining’ was unnecessary and disrespectful.”*
There are several types of whitesplaining. One type is to talk down in a patronizing or infantilizing manner to a POC. Based on her comments, this seems to be the type Mary feels you perpetrated.
“If people politely try to give me help and I don’t need it, I thank them anyway and move along.”
She doesn’t think you were polite, and any impoliteness she directed towards you came afterwards.
“I have to disagree here. No one should be disrespectful.”
Once again, Mary believes that you disrespected her. Maybe you don’t think so according to your “basic rules,” but her “basic rules” say you did. Is it better to argue that she shouldn’t be offended, or to try to correct the hurt?
Do you stop standing on her foot if she tells you that you’re doing so?
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/17/are-most-white-people-benevolently-clueless/)
“I will also never believe that trying to help someone is wrong.”
It can in fact be wrong, and people of color have historically suffered from many things that well-meaning white people thought would be of help.
“I regret the way I casually mentioned the sharecroppers. I can see why some people felt that their ancestors were being disrespected. However, I don’t believe that anyone deserves rudeness.”
Ancestors, nothing — Afrofem told you right off those were her grandparents you were talking about, not some distant ancestors she never knew. Is that not rude of you? Did Afrofem deserve rudeness?
I remember being flabbergasted on the Cesaria Evora thread when you apologized to me for misspelling “descendants” but never apologized to anyone for the insulting way you were describing sharecroppers and their descendants. How is that not rude?
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Blakksage: “By the way, are you Jewish?”
Paige: No, why do you ask?
Blakksage: Well, I’m not here to defend Abagond because I’m quite sure he could do that all on his own. However, when he made a comparative analysis argument regarding Anne Frank, you failed miserably to recognize it for what it truly was. To me, he was simply placing the two events in parallel for contrasting purposes only. The argument literally sailed clearly across your head. Instead, you seemed to have taken it deeply personal and responded somewhat erratic. This is why I asked if you are Jewish.
Blakkage: When did white Amerika awaken from their collective stupor of playing the role of having been enamoured with the tabula rasa of normalcy in their honest dealings regarding the descendants of slaves in this country and attempted to hold an honest discussion surrounding the issues listed above?
Paige: “Some individual White Americans have attempted to hold honest discussions about racial injustice, although unfortunately White America as a whole hasn’t been very helpful on that front.”
Blakksage: Paige, I’m not interested in hearing what a few people or groups did because it’s not because of groups or “individuals” that these discussions haven’t taken place. Furthermore, it is impossible for “some individuals” to enslave an entire nation of people; rampant prosecutorial misconduct; conduct mass incarceration; subject and strategically relegate a good portion of our people to the ranks of poverty; intentionally pass discriminatory laws at the state and federal level; commit lynching at will across what was then considered the United States. Perhaps you misunderstood my question or had a momentary Palinesque moment. Therefore, I’ll ask again:
When did Amerika or in the alternative, the U.S. government either held or attempted to hold honest and transparent, town hall discussions surrounding race, extrajudicial shootings and the other issues that bedevil this country even today?
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@ Solitaire: Paige reminds me of Lord Of Mirkwood whom she was an apologist for by the way and we all know what a piece of work he was. They share the same penchant of being obtuse and ignorant when it comes to have a lack of reflection and understanding about racial politics and discourse of intersectionality. I don’t understand why she thinks being patronizing and condescending is okay. Like she is Miss Anne talking down to the dumb darkies. When i used the word “white explaining “ you understood what I meant and you even directed her to a link of one of Abagond’s threads about what she was doing. The Tone Thread and White Fragility thread has her written all over it. Using the word “white or whiteness” has nothing to do with her race. “Whiteness is a state of mind much like she displayed in the Cesaria Evoria thread where she showed her true colors. Abagond’s The Tone Argument threat, She got offended because I was offended, she will not listen or engage because I am not speaking nice enough. And why are you so angry? I appreciate you trying to help but I am done with that individual. She chooses to stay ignorant and tone deaf and obtuse because she is not interested in doing better or learning.
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thread^^^
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@ Solitaire: See ADOS thread:
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@ Michael Barker
“Thus the predator is beaten and given a lesson in pain.
This is how society did things for 10,000 years before things became overtly ‘civilized’.”
That’s not how reasonable people ever did things. I enjoy living in a generally civilized society and not a state of pandemonium. Therefore, I believe that violence should be used only as a last resort.
@ Solitaire
“I understand your point about wanting people to treat you with the same type of respect you consider to be standard. But this is not your blog. It is Abagond’s blog.”
I certainly don’t think this is my blog! However, that doesn’t change my desire for respect. If I were in a store and someone was being rude to me, I wouldn’t engage with him even though it’s not my store. If I were at a party in someone’s home and another guest was being rude to me, I wouldn’t engage with her even though it’s not my home. Likewise, even though this isn’t my blog, I’m not going to engage with people who are behaving disrespectfully.
I could not, would not, on a boat. I will not, will not, with a goat. I will not take it in the rain. I will not take it on a train. Not in the dark! Not in a tree! Not in a car! It’s not for me! I do not like it in a box. I do not like it with a fox. I will not take it in a house. I do not like it with a mouse. I do not like it here or there. I do not like it anywhere! I do not like it, Solitaire!
“As far as I have observed, you only compliment and thank people for polite behavior in two situations. The first is when you believe someone else has been rude to you. What you said along those complimentary lines to both Abagond and myself in this thread could easily be seen as a passive-aggressive way of further rebuking Mary Burrell. (The other type of situation is when you’ve said something that people are disagreeing with and you thank them for remaining civil; it comes across — to me at least — not so much as a sincere compliment but a passive-aggressive way of trying to keep the tone from becoming heated and to avoid dealing with the fact that you’ve offended people.)”
When everyone is being polite and agreeing with each other, it’s not necessary to compliment people for remaining respectful. That would be strange, because there’s no reason to expect that people might be rude in that situation. However, when some commenters are being disrespectful and others are persisting in being kind, the polite people deserve a commendation for rising above the low standard of behavior that’s being established. When commenters disagree with each other and can still maintain a civil discussion, they merit praise for not giving in to the natural temptation to be rude.
“Another reason I object to it is that by complimenting my tone, you made a value judgment placing me, a white person, in hierarchical juxtaposition with Mary, a black person. You made it clear that, on this thread, you found my tone more acceptable than hers. You may not have done this with conscious intent, but it is a dynamic you should always be aware of, especially considering the historical and ongoing devaluing and diminishing of black women’s righteous anger. I resent your placing me on your ‘good behavior’ pedestal when in fact I side with Mary.”
I understand that you’re siding with Mary. However, I’m still listening to your arguments because you have the decency to engage in a calm discussion with me. The reason I placed you on my “good behavior” pedestal is because you were exhibiting good behavior. Mary was not. Your race doesn’t change your conduct. Sometimes individual White people behave better than individual Black people. Righteous anger can be expressed in a civil manner. Black people are perfectly capable of being kind and reasonable, and Mary is no exception. We’ve both seen her behave politely many times before.
“And yes, Abagond is black, not white — but if you paid any attention at all, you would have seen that we were just talking on the ADOS thread about Abagond’s being non-ADOS.”
Huh? You know full well that I wasn’t paying attention to what you were just talking about on the ADOS thread. You’re the one who’s been criticizing me for posting and leaving.
“Your thanking Abagond for his good behavior in this thread could very well be seen by readers as placing him, a non-ADOS, in juxtaposition with Mary Burrell, an ADOS, in much the same way as you did with Mary and me. The fact that you have already come down hard on the non-ADOS side of the divide would further suggest this interpretation of your remark, whether or not that was your conscious intent.”
Again, I try to evaluate behavior based on the conduct itself, not the background of the person. As for being on a certain “side,” I admire anyone whose values align with mine. That’s the “side” I’m on. There are people from every culture who are admirable. I don’t want to live in North Korea, but North Koreans have nothing inherently wrong with them. I don’t particularly like Saudi Arabia, but I’m sure that there are kind Saudis. I don’t love Appalacia, but I know that many Appalacians are perfectly nice. I don’t always admire ADOS culture, but individual ADOS people can be amazing role models. All cultures have problems. For that matter, I certainly have plenty of issues with our own White American culture! There’s room for nuance in life.
“No, you don’t. You leave the thread and don’t come back to see if the person in question has changed their tone. Your refusal to hear them out because you object to their tone means you dismiss their arguments unheard. And that ispart of the tone argument, as per Abagond’s example from that post: ‘We would listen to you if you said it more nicely.’”
When a specific discussion becomes unproductive or is highly likely to become unproductive, then I leave it. I’m not going to hang around in unreasonable situations to see if they improve. In regard to the tone argument, Abagond also said, “The whites who use it have no interest whatsoever in what you have to say – no matter what your tone.” That’s not me. I really WILL listen to people who communicate nicely. I’m doing it right now. However, that doesn’t mean that I will let an unproductive argument drag on eternally, in hopes that commenters will begin to behave respectfully. There’s being polite, and then there’s being submissive. I try to be the former and not the latter.
“It wasn’t polite. It’s saying to everyone that you think your thoughts are important enough that people should read them, but their thoughts on what you said aren’t important enough for you to waste your time reading them.”
I let people know that I wouldn’t be returning to the thread right at the beginning of my comment, so they wouldn’t even have to consider my thoughts if they didn’t want to. Anyone who read my entire comment did so because they were interested in what I had to say, despite knowing that I didn’t want to get involved in a long debate involving the opinions of everyone, their brother, and their Nigerian neighbor. Your comment about how I “would have also seen the tension on that thread between some commenters of ADOS and non-ADOS descent” reinforces my opinion about the futility of discussing the ADOS topic on this blog.
“Why didn’t you ask her?”
My comment was short and straightforward. There wasn’t really room for confusion.
“Which basic rules? Where is it written? In all societies everywhere? And who made you the arbiter?”
The most basic rules of polite conduct are shared by human societies everywhere. Respect for others is always in style; without it, we couldn’t manage societies in the first place. The simple concept of respect existed long before writing was even invented. Even non-human animals often demonstrate a kind of politeness toward members of their own species. All reasonable people are arbiters of basic rules like “be civil when expressing disagreement”. I mean, this is preschool stuff – or stuff for four-year-old cavepeople, if you want to shed our cultural framework.
“There are several types of whitesplaining. One type is to talk down in a patronizing or infantilizing manner to a POC. Based on her comments, this seems to be the type Mary feels you perpetrated.”
She was reading something into my comment that wasn’t there.
“Do you stop standing on her foot if she tells you that you’re doing so?”
We weren’t even talking about racism. I don’t have to please every single Black person regardless of the topic.
“Is it better to argue that she shouldn’t be offended, or to try to correct the hurt?”
I tried to correct the hurt. She didn’t want to take my statements seriously, which is her choice.
“It can in fact be wrong, and people of color have historically suffered from many things that well-meaning white people thought would be of help.”
An attempt to help may cause unanticipated problems that can be criticized, but the desire to be helpful never deserves disrespect. I don’t think my comment caused a crisis for Mary. She could have easily said, “Thanks anyway Paige, but I was talking about the book, not the blog post. I guess I didn’t make that clear.”
“Ancestors, nothing — Afrofem told you right off those were her grandparents you were talking about, not some distant ancestors she never knew. Is that not rude of you? Did Afrofem deserve rudeness?
I remember being flabbergasted on the Cesaria Evora thread when you apologized to me for misspelling ‘descendants’ but never apologized to anyone for the insulting way you were describing sharecroppers and their descendants. How is that not rude?”
I didn’t say, “some distant ancestors [they] never knew”. I meant ancestors in the sense of (gender-neutral) forefathers, people from whom someone is descended. Also, I did apologize for my descriptions in the Cesaria thread. I specifically said, “Okay, I think I chose bad, vague wording. I’m sorry that my comment could be interpreted as me saying Southern sharecroppers were worse people than the current immigrants. I don’t actually believe that.”
@ Blakksage
“When did Amerika or in the alternative, the U.S. government either held or attempted to hold honest and transparent, town hall discussions surrounding race, extrajudicial shootings and the other issues that bedevil this country even today?”
To my knowledge the US government has never held town hall discussions specifically about race, nor any other identity issue like gender, sexuality, language background, immigration status, income level, disability, etc. It’s a great idea, though. I would love to see such discussions take place. I’m a big fan of town meetings of all sorts. It’s great for people to air their grievances and propose solutions in an organized, cooperative manner.
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@ Mary Burrell
“And why are you so angry? I appreciate you trying to help but I am done with that individual.”
I didn’t think I was feeling angry. Maybe it’s coming across that way because it can be hard to decipher tone on the internet without visual cues. Or maybe I’m more angry than I thought and it is leaking out without my realizing it. Honestly not sure which.
I’m not sure whether you’re asking me to stand down. If you want this discussion to be entirely done, I will stop responding to her.
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@ Solitaire: I need to learn to be clarify my ideas better. I was using an example in Tone Argument. Many times black people are perceived as always being angry. In the tone argument people of color especially black women are labeled as “angry.” Because i was offended i was supposed to moderate my tone with Paige and be a more docile black person so she could be comfortable. Not my job to make her feel comfortable. At any rate i do appreciate you trying to help even though Paige chooses to be obtuse and willfully ignorant. Thanks anyway.
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@Solitaire: Wasn’t calling you angry. But I am done with Paige and moving on.
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I don’t want another black President like Obama who tried to soothe the ruffled feathers of the dominant culture. Even though he practiced all the respectability politics in regard to the dominant culture he and his family were disrespected and hated. I much prefer Beto O’Roureck or Julian Castro.
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@ Mary Burrell
It was my mistake. Reading your comment again, I see that I misunderstood. Yes, that’s part of the Tone argument, to act like there’s no reason the offended person should be so angry. Denial and deflection.
I’m about done with that person, too, now that she’s quoting Dr. Suess children’s books at me. SMH.
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@ jefe
I know, right?
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The people most in need of listening to Black people or people of colour and take what they say seriously are the very people least likely to do it: White racists. Almost by definition.
It has nothing to do with Black empathy or a lack thereof, as Booker wants us to believe. It has everything to do with the self-serving racist belief that what Black people say does not have to be taken seriously.
Therefore, if talking is have any effect, it will mostly have to be White-on-White. A White anti-racist can have ten times the effect of a Black anti-racist. Because of the nature of racism itself.
However, one Black anti-racist is still better than zero White anti-racists. Ten times zero is still zero.
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re: abagond
But there isn’t exactly an army of white anti-racist talking heads out there. Maybe Tim Wise should try recruiting a troop of talking heads and not do it all himself. Michael Moore could do more, but he focuses more on class and lobby groups than on race.
This follows that it would be better to have a white anti-racist (and anti-classist, as we need that too) to be President or the upper echelons of government. A POC president will feel obligated to pander to white people in power, to bolster their egos so that people will vote for them.
AOC is one of the only ones who seems not to feel obliged to massage white egos.
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@ Paige
“I could not, would not, on a boat. I will not, will not, with a goat. I will not take it in the rain. I will not take it on a train. Not in the dark! Not in a tree! Not in a car! It’s not for me! I do not like it in a box. I do not like it with a fox. I will not take it in a house. I do not like it with a mouse. I do not like it here or there. I do not like it anywhere! I do not like it, Solitaire!”
It’s stunts like this that make me want to swear at you. That was uncalled for, Paige. I’m not three years old. Please do not speak to me like I am. It’s rude.
“Your race doesn’t change your conduct.”
I guess you are of the colorblind school, then? Because I try to take into account the differences across racial experience. Black Americans have had to hold their tongue for centuries. They’ve had to bow and scrape to white people; they’ve had to stifle their anger and their pain; they’ve had to smile when they felt like screaming. They still have white people warn them about their tone, subtly or directly, far too often, far more than white people do it to each other. I don’t want to be the white person who treats black people that way — even if my intentions are good, because it isn’t my intentions but my behavior that has an impact.
“There’s being polite, and then there’s being submissive. I try to be the former and not the latter.”
You’re being the direct opposite of submissive. You’re trying to force people here to act in accordance with your idea of civil behavior, even though your norm is not the same norm that Abagond has established for this community. You’re the one here who is violating the community standards of appropriate behavior.
“The most basic rules of polite conduct are shared by human societies everywhere.”
I see you have never studied anthropology. There are rules of polite conduct in all societies, but they are not the same rules.
In some cultures, it’s only acceptable to thank someone in extreme situations; e.g., where they have committed an act of significant self-sacrifice to help you. Daily small acts of courtesy and ordinary favors are given and received without a word or gesture of thanks. In those cultures, if you were to thank someone for conversing calmly (or holding a door open, or passing the salad bowl), it would be a grievous insult because you’re insinuating that it’s very difficult for them to behave properly, that it is a great self-sacrifice for them to manage the simplest of courtesies.
In other cultures, you would be completely out of line for correcting Mary Burrell because she is your elder. It is not your place to presume to contradict anything she says, whether she made a mistake or not. She could tell you that the moon is made of green cheese. Someone who is older than Mary can correct her without violating the basic rules of polite conduct, but not a younger person.
“All reasonable people are arbiters of basic rules like ‘be civil when expressing disagreement’.”
Again, the issue here is that your idea of what constitutes civility is not universal. Even within one nation, there are different rules depending on region, race, ethnicity, class, religion, etc.
“Also, I did apologize for my descriptions in the Cesaria thread. I specifically said, ‘Okay, I think I chose bad, vague wording. I’m sorry that my comment could be interpreted as me saying Southern sharecroppers were worse people than the current immigrants. I don’t actually believe that.'”
That was the classic half-baked apology: “I’m sorry that you were offended.” And you then continued to double-down on your insistence that the descendants of sharecroppers weren’t a good fit in your culture and hadn’t assimilated and it was all their own fault, so your apology didn’t signify anything.
“I didn’t say, ‘some distant ancestors [they] never knew’. I meant ancestors in the sense of (gender-neutral) forefathers, people from whom someone is descended.”
You’re entirely missing my point.
“Your comment about how I ‘would have also seen the tension on that thread between some commenters of ADOS and non-ADOS descent’ reinforces my opinion about the futility of discussing the ADOS topic on this blog.”
Huh? We talk about ADOS issues all the time. What exactly do you want to discuss about ADOS people that you think is a futile undertaking on this blog?
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@ Paige
“I don’t love Appalacia, but I know that many Appalacians are perfectly nice.”
It’s Appalachia, and I wonder how many Appalachians you even know.
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Its true that white people take other white people more seriously. White people need to do this amongst themselves. Call out racist behaviors.
But they mostly won’t because of what other people might think of them or their job or work place.
So they ignore it or avoid putting themselves in a situation where they would have to make a call.
A racist in their church so they change churches. A racist at work so they ask to move to another place in the office.
Today I finished a job and was invited inside the home to get paid. I noticed on the refrigerator photographs of their two dogs, one black and white, with the captions “black labs matter” and “all labs matter”.
I could have mentioned something but didn’t because I wanted to work for this client in the future.
So I can be part of this problem too.
This was a nice liberal family who voted for Obama and would never consider themselves racist yet what’s obvious is their complete disconnect from the issues of non whites. They think the pictures are cute but they wouldn’t think that if they were black.
He was quite proud of his two daughters and the work they do for the environment. One works as a lobbyist pushing for green initiatives and the other is the head marine biologist in Montery Ca. working with sea lions. Thats privalge.
Like lom who thought lions were more important then people.
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I read a quote by Malcolm X in the “Is the white anti-racist an oxymoron” thread that seemed appropriate to re-post here:
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“I don’t love Appalachia, but I know that many Appalachians are perfectly nice.”
Geeze, what a simp. 😒
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@ Solitaire
“I’m not three years old. Please do not speak to me like I am. It’s rude.”
Wait, so now you believe it’s okay to ask for politeness after all? Well, I’m glad we can relate on that point.
At any rate, I was simply trying to infuse some lightheartedness into the conversation. I definitely don’t think you’re stupid or immature, if that’s what you felt I was implying. I’m sorry for misjudging how the Dr. Seuss reference would sound. That was my mistake; I do not want to be rude.
“I guess you are of the colorblind school, then? Because I try to take into account the differences across racial experience. Black Americans have had to hold their tongue for centuries. They’ve had to bow and scrape to white people; they’ve had to stifle their anger and their pain; they’ve had to smile when they felt like screaming. They still have white people warn them about their tone, subtly or directly, far too often, far more than white people do it to each other.”
No, I don’t pretend to be colorblind, nor would I want to be blind to our differences. I can see people’s skin color just like I can see their hair color and eye color, and I enjoy the beauty of human diversity.
I can also see that in a polite society, basic behavioral standards apply equally to everyone, regardless of superficial differences like their skin, hair, or eye color. I’m not asking anyone to hold their tongue, bow and scrape, stifle their anger and pain, or smile. I’m not requesting anything of Mary that I don’t also ask of a White person like yourself.
I simply want people to communicate respectfully. It’s completely possible to share our feelings politely. Many people of all races do it every single day. You just asked me to try harder above, and I will make that effort.
I’m sorry that Black people have suffered from racial injustice, but I’m treating Mary exactly as I would treat a White or Asian person. I don’t have lower expectations for Black people’s manners.
“You’re trying to force people here to act in accordance with your idea of civil behavior, even though your norm is not the same norm that Abagond has established for this community. You’re the one here who is violating the community standards of appropriate behavior.”
If Abagond decides that I’m violating his standards, he is obviously free to tell me so. I don’t think that politely asking for respectful treatment is inappropriate. I’m not trying to force people to act in any particular way; I’m calmly making a request.
“There are rules of polite conduct in all societies, but they are not the same rules.”
Many rules are different, but the most important ones are the same. For example, murder, theft, and cheating are not generally rewarded. Helpfulness, generosity, and forgiveness are usually valued. Human societies would not function without some basic principles on which to rely. The rules that differ from culture to culture are just various interpretations of those basic guidelines.
“That was the classic half-baked apology: ‘I’m sorry that you were offended.’ And you then continued to double-down on your insistence that the descendants of sharecroppers weren’t a good fit in your culture and hadn’t assimilated and it was all their own fault, so your apology didn’t signify anything.”
No, I was apologizing for my poor word choice that caused them to be offended. The blame was on me, not the others. I also never said that the relative lack of assimilation was “all their own fault”. In fact, I specifically acknowledged obstacles outside of their control, such as racism and classism.
“We talk about ADOS issues all the time.”
By “the ADOS topic,” I mean the subject of longtime Black American ancestry as it contrasts with more recent Black immigrant ancestry. Most of the race-related posts on this blog are about Black Americans in general; Abagond doesn’t usually mention the ADOS topic.
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@ Paige
“Wait, so now you believe it’s okay to ask for politeness after all?”
Where did I ever say that it wasn’t? But there’s a difference between asking and demanding. I appreciate your apology, but had you not apologized, I would not have insisted on it.
“No, I don’t pretend to be colorblind…. I’m not requesting anything of Mary that I don’t also ask of a White person like yourself…. I’m sorry that Black people have suffered from racial injustice, but I’m treating Mary exactly as I would treat a White or Asian person. I don’t have lower expectations for Black people’s manners.”
I think you’re missing my point. A colorblind approach to race relations is exactly what you’ve expressed above. It doesn’t take into account that the different experiences of different races in the U.S. affect what each group perceives as racially offensive.
I don’t consider it “lower expectations” but rather heightened sensitivity. I try to have heightened sensitivity and awareness about what things each race may find particularly insulting and adjust my behavior accordingly.
I know you are operating from the stance that Mary was unconscionably rude to you. Another way of looking at it is that being talked down to intellectually is something that black people experience far more often than whites or Asians, so they are going to be more sensitive about it and react more strongly to it.
In that view, it isn’t that Mary has worse manners than other people but rather that she felt particularly provoked. Most people if provoked hard enough will lash out.
“I’m not asking anyone to hold their tongue, bow and scrape, stifle their anger and pain, or smile.”
You’re telling her how to express her anger.
“I simply want people to communicate respectfully. It’s completely possible to share our feelings politely. Many people of all races do it every single day.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember you ever mentioning this on a thread unless you’re personally involved and the perceived rudeness is directed at you. You don’t seem to care otherwise.
“I don’t think that politely asking for respectful treatment is inappropriate. I’m not trying to force people to act in any particular way; I’m calmly making a request.”
You’ve made it a condition of any discussion with yourself on serious matters. You want people to mince their words when speaking to you. Some people will see that as a requirement to smile and scrape. Placating Miss Anne, so to speak.
“Many rules are different, but the most important ones are the same. For example, murder, theft, and cheating are not generally rewarded.”
But murder, theft, and cheating weren’t the rules we were talking about. You specifically were referencing “basic rules of polite conduct” above, not “basic rules regarding major crimes.” I gave two examples of “polite conduct” rules that had direct bearing to this discussion, and I could give more (like the use of profanity in different cultures, for example).
For that matter, which behaviors are considered theft and cheating also vary across cultures.
“The rules that differ from culture to culture are just various interpretations of those basic guidelines.”
Having the flexibility to negotiate those differences instead of rigidly expecting adherence to one set is an essential element of crosscultural competency.
“If Abagond decides that I’m violating his standards, he is obviously free to tell me so.”
He agreed with Jefe above that you are the pet lizard of this thread.
“By ‘the ADOS topic,’ I mean the subject of longtime Black American ancestry as it contrasts with more recent Black immigrant ancestry. Most of the race-related posts on this blog are about Black Americans in general; Abagond doesn’t usually mention the ADOS topic.”
In his posts where the topic has come up, Abagond has always — to the best of my memory — pointed out that the recent non-ADOS black immigration is a brain drain.
For example:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-bootstrap-myth/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/25/asian-brain-drain/
But what you said earlier was not that the discussion was nonexistent, but rather “the futility of discussing the ADOS topic on this blog.”
What is it that you find futile?
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A conversation, by definition, includes the exchange of views and ideas. When one enters a conversation unwilling to exchange ideas, but only wishing to impart ideas, It can feel futile when those ideas are not well received.
It took me a long time to appreciate that futility is an ironic byproduct of narcissism.
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In other words, farting in a wind tunnel is more effective!
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Pet lizards serve a useful purpose.
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I LO-O-O-VE YOU FAMILY!!! Didn’t comment cuz I didn’t need to…
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@Deb
I’m just looking with my popcorn.
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@sharinair…You and me both, Sis!
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@Mary Burrell…Lil Sis I’ve told you before and I’ll tell you again — watching you grow on this blog has been an amazing experience for me! I have no doubt that you can hold your own in whatever situation you find yourself and that makes me so damned proud for our future.
@sharinair…Sis, we’ve been here together for some time now and you feel like a younger version of myself! You get it when we need to say sh*t or just sit back and enjoy the ride! 🤣
You women are a vision of what the hell is comin’ — folk better pay attention!
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@Deb; Sending you light and blessings today.
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@ Solitaire
In order to prevent you from wasting your time, I’m letting you know right away that I will not be returning to the thread after this comment. To see how I made that decision, you can read my reply to your question directly below. I moved it from the bottom of my comment to the top so that you could see it easily.
“What is it that you find futile?”
I find discussions futile when both sides seem to be repeating the same few points, or variations on them, over and over without much agreement being reached. Actually, I’m glad you asked me that question, because I’m now realizing that this argument has become futile as well.
We do agree on certain points, as I’ve noted previously. In fact, I suspect that our overall views on politics, identity, and society may be more alike than different (though I’m not sure that means much to you, since you sometimes seem to dislike other White progressives the most). At any rate, I don’t think we’re going to see completely eye to eye on this topic. Much of the debate has become an examination of subjective gray areas, like the difference between basic human values and superficial cultural ones. We’ve also gotten somewhat off topic. Instead of focusing on Mary and I, we’re discussing Black and White people in general. Instead of focusing on how we’ve behaved in this thread, we’re discussing whom I have or haven’t argued with in other threads.
I hope that any interactions we have in the future will be more positive and productive. You’re an intelligent and patient person, and those are qualities I admire. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
“But there’s a difference between asking and demanding. I appreciate your apology, but had you not apologized, I would not have insisted on it.”
I’ve been trying to ask politely for respect. I don’t remember demanding that anyone apologize to me.
“I know you are operating from the stance that Mary was unconscionably rude to you. Another way of looking at it is that being talked down to intellectually is something that black people experience far more often than whites or Asians, so they are going to be more sensitive about it and react more strongly to it.”
I don’t think Mary often feels that I am talking down to her. As you pointed out earlier, we generally got along well until this thread.
“You’re telling her how to express her anger.”
Yes, I’m saying that anyone (of any race) who wants to have a conversation with me needs to express his or her feelings respectfully.
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t remember you ever mentioning this on a thread unless you’re personally involved and the perceived rudeness is directed at you.”
Yeah, I generally try not to jump into disagreements that don’t involve me. I don’t have time to argue with every person who’s behaving rudely online.
“You specifically were referencing ‘basic rules of polite conduct’ above, not ‘basic rules regarding major crimes.’”
I also mentioned that “helpfulness, generosity, and forgiveness are usually valued.” Principles like those are the foundation of polite conduct. Of course there’s some variation in rules between cultures, but outright aggression is not generally prized in social situations. Humans everywhere are more alike than different.
“Having the flexibility to negotiate those differences instead of rigidly expecting adherence to one set is an essential element of crosscultural competency.”
I agree. We just disagree on whether or not I’m “rigidly expecting adherence to one set”. I view myself as valuing basic principles, while you seem to view me as focusing on trivial cultural factors.
“He agreed with Jefe above that you are the pet lizard of this thread.”
Okay, but I don’t think I’m “violating his standards”. He didn’t tell me that I was breaking any rules. I don’t mind being a “pet lizard” in the sense of resembling the White people in the post. I said from the beginning that I didn’t see why Booker and his White friends were so outrageous. Actually, they sound like nice people to me.
“In his posts where the topic has come up, Abagond has always — to the best of my memory — pointed out that the recent non-ADOS black immigration is a brain drain.”
Part of the recent Black immigration is a brain drain, but I think you know that much of it is poorer immigrants and refugees who have not enjoyed many opportunities in their home countries. When I say “poorer” I mean that some have been living in shacks with no running water – but you may know that too. The fact that many disadvantaged Black immigrants come to wealthy nations and manage to greatly improve their situation shows that Black people are incredibly capable human beings, just like anybody else.
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@Mary Burrell… Thanx Darlin’ — can’t have too much of either, right??!!
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JFC, I hate when she does that!!!!😡😠😡😠😡
How about just saying “Let’s agree to disagree” instead of “I’m going to get in the last word, and I’m going to throw out new s#!t like ‘since you sometimes seem to dislike other White progressives the most,’ but I’m not going to give you a chance to ask me to clarify or to defend yourself from that accusation because I won’t be coming back and I will never see anything you write.”
#$%#&@$%@#&$%!!!!!!
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Paige said,
“When I say “poorer” I mean that some have been living in shacks with no running water – but you may know that too. The fact that many disadvantaged Black immigrants come to wealthy nations and manage to greatly improve their situation shows that Black people are incredibly capable human beings, just like anybody else.”
A very small number are political refugees fleeing a war zone. Those are disadvantaged.
The majority are educated when they arrive in the U.S. and many continue their education here once they arrive. Black immigrants from Africa are more likely than Americans overall to have a college degree or higher.
“living in shacks with no running water” is a stereo type along with “war lord” and “starving African child”.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/14/african-immigrant-population-in-u-s-steadily-climbs/
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Perhaps instead of examining “longtime Black American ancestry as it contrasts with more recent Black immigrant ancestry,” it might be more constructive to compare black African immigrants in the US and in the EU:
https://www.voanews.com/a/african-immigrants-in-us-increasingly-more-educated-employed/4362609.html
So even when the African immigrants are war refugees, those who make it to the US are significantly more likely to come from a wealthier and more highly educated background.
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Heck, look at the numbers in Italy compared to Britain from the quoted text above. Which country is closer to Africa? The farther north in Europe, the more likely that an African immigrant has a college education.
I’d be willing to bet that there’s an opposite trend if we looked at college education for Latin American immigrants to the US versus Latin American immigrants to the EU. Proximity is a huge factor in where poor immigrants or poor refugees end up.
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@ Paige
“I think you know that much of it is poorer immigrants and refugees who have not enjoyed many opportunities in their home countries.”
No, I don’t know that. Where are your sources??? Where are your statistics??? What exact percentage is “much”???
If you weren’t such a coward, you would have stuck around and backed up your argument. Did you know you were pulling your “facts” out of a Save The Children infomercial? Is that why you cut and ran???
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http://www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story.html
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Paige wrote above: “I said from the beginning that I didn’t see why Booker and his White friends were so outrageous. Actually, they sound like nice people to me.”
That immediately came to mind when I read the following essay:
(all emphases mine.)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/16/racial-inequality-niceness-white-people
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pet lizard? a basically dormant critter that sits on a rock under a heat lamp?
congrats, you have coined a phrase! it exists in any kind of context nowhere with a superficial google search, nor on urban dictionary!
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@ v8driver
It comes from this post:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/my-philosophy-on-trolls/
Abagond also defined it again here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/10/17/commenter/
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