For the rest of 2019 every month will Black History Month, one century a month. I am getting a late start, but it will go roughly like this:
- 1200s: May
- 1300s: June
- 1400s: July
- 1500s: August
- 1600s: September
- 1700s: October
- 1800s: November
- 1900s: December
I say “roughly” because by the end of August I want to do a post on 1619.
My main concern:
- West Africa,1200-1808
- US,1619-2019
Some posts I have done or should do:
- 1100s: Almoravids, Trans-Saharan Trade, Islam and West Africa.
- 1200s: 1219.
- 1300s: 1319, Mali Empire, Mansa Musa, Abubakari II, Hausaland, Bornu.
- 1400s: 1419, Kingdom of Kongo, “Dum diversas”, Portuguese, Elmina Castle, Columbus, Pedro Alonzo Niño.
- 1500s: 1519, Estevanico, Timbuktu, Songhay Empire, Wolof Empire, Fulani, African Diaspora, Africanisms, Afro-Mexicans.
- 1600s: 1619, Angela of Jamestown, tobacco, Juan Rodriguez, Racism in the 1600s, Bacon’s Rebellion, plantation, Black American Christianity.
- 1700s: 1719, Racism in the 1700s, stereotype, Stono Rebellion, slave ship, Middle Passage, American slavery, slave patrols, Ashanti Empire, Oyo, Thirteen Colonies, African Burial Ground (New York), Free Blacks, Declaration of Independence, US Constitution, three-fifths, Haitian Revolution, du Sable.
- 1800s: 1819, Racism in the 1800s, cotton, Walker’s Appeal, Nat Turner, abolitionists, Henry Garnet, Frederick Douglass, Martin Delaney, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, minstrel show, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Underground Railroad, Liberia, Dred Scott, John Brown, Lincoln, American Civil War, Draft Riots, Emancipation, 13th, 14th, 15th Amendment, 40 acres and a mule, Reconstruction, good hair, colourism, passing, racial nadir, Jim Crow, Klan, lynching, Ida B. Wells, Anna Julia Cooper, Homestead Act, Wilmington Riot, Plessey v Ferguson.
- 1900s: 1919, Racism in the 1900s, scientific racism, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. Du Bois, Madam C.J. Walker, Matthew Henson.
- 1910s: “The Birth of a Nation”, Great Migration, Red Summer.
- 1920s: Tulsa Riot, Harlem Renaissance, blues, jazz, Josephine Baker, Arthur Schomburg, Marcus Garvey, Negro Doll Factory, Margaret Sanger, Oscar Micheaux.
- 1930s: Langston Hughes, Jesse Owens, Joe Louis.
- 1940s: Double V, Tuskegee airmen, Tuskegee Experiment, R&B, GI Bill, FHA loans, Jackie Robinson, Pan-Africanism, Paul Robeson, White flight, redlining, Clark Doll Experiment.
- 1950s: Brown v Board, Emmett Till, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr, Civil Rights Movement, Dorothy Dandridge, Lorraine Hansberry, soul music.
- 1960s: Muhammad Ali, James Baldwin, Malcolm X, Nation of Islam, Medgar Evers, SNCC, Freedom Summer, Civil Rights Act, Selma, Voting Rights Act, Stokely Carmichael, Black Power, Afro, Black is beautiful, Afrocentricity, Black Panther Party, Loving v Virginia, Detroit Riot, Thurgood Marshall, Black Barbie, Southern Strategy, White backlash, “Julia”, James Cone, Cointelpro, Fred Hampton.
- 1970s: “Shaft”, blaxpoitation, Angela Davis, Shirley Chisholm, heroin, busing, Boston Busing Riot, urban music, “Roots”, Louis Farrakhan.
- 1980s: hip hop, “The Cosby Show”, gentrification, crack, War on Drugs, Spike Lee, Oprah, Toni Morrison, Flo Jo, Central Park 5.
- 1990s: Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, mass incarceration, racial profiling.
- 2000s: 2019, Racism in the 2000s, Condoleezza Rice, Tyler Perry, Barack Obama, Jeremiah Wright, Great Black Depression.
- 2010s: misogynoir, Trayvon Martin, voter suppression, Ferguson Riot, Black Lives Matter, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Colin Kaepernick, “Black Panther”, cannabis, racial wealth gap, reparations.
also:
- ethnic groups: Black Americans, Americo-Liberians, Mbundu, Wolof, Fulani, Yoruba, Igbo, Fon, Akan, Malinke, Soninke, Dogon, Tuareg.
Suggestions welcomed!
– Abagond, 2019.
See also:
- Programming note #38
- Black History Month
- The history of black history
- NMAAHC – the Black Smithsonian
533
If you do this right we will all be far more knowledgeable!
This is a big project! Good luck.
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Looking forward to these threads.
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Brazilian Quilombos of the 1700s?
The most famous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmares_(quilombo)
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Why no post on African spirituality? That’s the foundation of culture and yet absolutely zero post on such an important topic… strange.
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“Haitian Revolution”. A very large subject that can’t be done in 500 words. I hope you’ll eschew the nonsense about it being a ‘slave revolt’ since Haiti was founded by free black people who wouldn’t be re-enslaved.
The1791 revolt was crushed, Boukman’s head ended on a pike, but it did irreparable damage to the slave system to the extent that the French government was obliged to free the slaves in 1793 and proclaim the freedom of all slaves throughout the French empire on 2/4/1794.
Eight years later mad Bony tried to restore it with singular lack of success.
Spare me the nonsense about Vodou being the reason for success because it existed side by side with the slave system for over a century, besides, Toussaint L’Ouverture, the chief architect of the struggle for freedom was a good catholic!
If you manage to write something about how the Haitian Revolution was really about ending oppression without making it about an orgy of interracial violence, I’ll deem your effort a worthwhile read.
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“mad Bony” should have been “mad Boney” in my previous comment
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Why not a post on Igbo metallurgy, you could geek out on such subject?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12216684-200-science-west-african-metalworking-predates-european-contact/
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@gro jo
What can be done to satisfy the history of black’s since Livingston, (the first white – notice not Arabic) moved into Africa, or the first slave was removed from Africa to the Americas which was even earlier?
A person could write a volume of books and still not include all of the millions of positive activities that have occurred. Which ones are important?
Which nation in the Americas was most independent and accomplished the most important goals?
What was the contribution of the French to their colonies which differed from English rule? Why is there such a difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic?
Treatment of people is recognizes as subjective, based on the observer who normally only see one side of the situation.
Please allow the show to begin before complaining about the acts!
@Abagond
You have a big big job trying to reduce this subject down to such a short time span. I actually hope you can succeed in at least building a skeleton of the period you have selected to describe.
So much of history is written around the names of a few people as though all of the important players did not exist. In reality there were hundreds of people whose names will never be heard that made major contributions to the cause.
My hat is off to the many blacks that I have been priviliged to be associated with over the years, that have contributed to the betterment of our race but there names will never be heard.
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“@gro jo
What can be done to satisfy the history of black’s since Livingston, (the first white – notice not Arabic) moved into Africa, or the first slave was removed from Africa to the Americas which was even earlier?”
Tell the story, warts and all, of Africans? Instead of a panoramic view, a few things like steel making bronze casting, rice cultivation, inoculation, warfare, etc.
could be explored. What makes you think “Arabic” aren’t ‘white”?
“Which ones are important?” Development.
“Which nation in the Americas was most independent and accomplished the most important goals?” The USA.
“What was the contribution of the French to their colonies which differed from English rule?” The 2/4/1794 law abolishing slavery due to the pressure of the people of St-Domingue violently undermining slavery.
“Why is there such a difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic?”
Foreign powers intervening on the island and dismembering Haiti as it was constituted in 1802 and again in 1822 when the whole island was Haiti. Along with the incapacity of the leaders of Haiti to effectively repulse them.
“Please allow the show to begin before complaining about the acts!”
Please do me the courtesy of allowing me to express myself as I see fit. If you disagree with me just state your view without giving me advice.
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Abagond, you forgot to add “ADOS” post to the 2000s era.
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@gro jo
The reason I do not believe they are white is because they are all brown skinned people! The people of the Middle East have been intermixed with the white people and the millions of Africans that have been brought up from sub Saharan Africa over the thousands of years since about 700 AD and who knows maybe before that. If a person looks at the make up most of the land and sea around north Africa they would realize how human contact was inevitable. Sail west to the Atlantic, follow the currents south to West Central Africa. You can do it with a canoe! Sail up the river. Have sex! Take black people back to the Middle East to be slaves. The Africans become brown and the slaves taken back to the Middle East intermingle with the people! The French called the children of such inter relationship ull@gro jo
The reason I do not believe they are white is because they are all brown skinned people! The people of the Middle East have been intermixed with the white people and the millions of Africans that have been brought up from sub Saharan Africa over the thousands of years since about 700 AD and who knows maybe before that. If a person looks at the make up most of the land and sea around north Africa they would realize how human contact was inevitable. Sail west to the Atlantic, follow the currents south to West Central Africa. You can do it with a canoe! Sail up the river. Have sex! Take black people back to the Middle East to be slaves. The Africans become brown and the slaves taken back to the Middle East intermingle with the people! The Arabic called the children of such inter relationship muwallad (Mulattoes).
Look at them, look at people of India. Do the look white to you?
The word white was invented in Germany and referred to people of the north. So called Nordics (see Hitler). At the time Germany, Holland, Finland, Polish, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg and of course England
Another name The Huns!
Over my life time I have never been certain what southern Europeans were or should have been called. They did not seem to be part of northern Europe in the first part of the last century. The southwestern Europeans Spain, Italy, the Slavic and Slovenian, Portugal and southern France seem to be different people.
The Romans were at war with the Norther Europeans.
I believe you are referring to blacks which are people living mainly south of the Sahara Desert and all others as white or Asian. Even Ethiopians have a language “Semitic” that is considered the same as other Middle East nations. Are they also white? The reference to Sudan were referred to as dark skinned in some article I have read. (I personally believe Egyptians are black if you look at their color)
You have “a choice” to call them white, as you said in your previous comment!
I choose to not have a disagreement with you over crap!
You probably have done way more study about this subject then I. you are the commanding individual in such a matter!
All people are the same to me “good, bad and ugly”!
What is the problem between Haiti and the Dominican Republic? Could it have something to do with culture? Do you live in Haiti, if not would you move to Haiti? Is Haiti the same Haiti today as the Haiti of yesterday when the entire island was called Haiti for a brief moment of time?
We should refer to the island of Hispaniola (also Santo Domingo – Colonial period) which includes both Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The history is inter mixed and difficult to know who did what, when who did what and how what was done impacted each nation. The penalties placed on the current Haiti seem to have cause grave damage; yet, the leadership over the last several hundred years has not been that great. I would think the people lived more like slaves under their own leadership then people who lived like slaves under slave owner leadership.
I have never been a slave so I do not know; however, I served for three years in a black US military unit with white officers, who had a reputation of knowing how to handle “n-Blacks-s. Some of the black non commissioned officers were well trained in issuing non sympathetic discipline.
The city Santo Domingo, Haiti is now in the Dominican Republic
I have read that only a river separates the two nations. Is this a question of two black groups not getting along? ( Like Hutu and Tutsi)
How sad it is to read about the separation of people over culture when they are both being mistreated by a greater force.
https://www.infoplease.com/world/countries/dominican-republic/among-the-first-to-offer-aid-to-haiti
https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/rough/2007/12/haiti_belos_sonlinks.html
@ Abagond I certainly hope you are “AI’ to keep up with all of the additional request. I thought you had bitten off more than you could chew; yet, here are many more subjects that you are being asked to cover in the same time period!
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“The reason I do not believe they are white is because they are all brown skinned people!” BULLSH8. If, as you acknowledge, they are ‘mixed’ some of them are bound to be ‘white’ i.e. fair skinned and haired.
“Is Haiti the same Haiti today as the Haiti of yesterday when the entire island was called Haiti for a brief moment of time?” Before Spaniards invaded in 1492 the island was known as Haiti or Quisqueya. When Dessalines kicked out the French from the Western side of the island, he gave it its original name.
As for differences between Haitians and Dominicans, The greatest Dominican hater of Haitians Trujillo was from a Haitian family: “Trujillo’s mother was Altagracia Julia Molina Chevalier, later known as Mama Julia, the daughter of Pedro Molina Peña, of colonial Dominican origin, and the teacher Luisa Erciná Chevalier, whose parents, although originally from Haiti, were predominantly of French origin: her father, Justin Alexis Víctor Turenne Carrié Blaise, was of French descent, while her mother, Eleonore Juliette Chevallier Moreau, was part of Haiti’s mulatto class.[10][11] ” This stuff from Wikipedia, was probably written by a Dominican. If a Haitian had written it he would have pointed out that the Chevaliers were the descendants of Emperor Jacques I’s sister. So, yes, it is as you say: “…two black groups not getting along? ( Like Hutu and Tutsi)”
“We should refer to the island of Hispaniola (also Santo Domingo – Colonial period) which includes both Haiti and the Dominican Republic. ”
You are at liberty to do so, I’m not. Referring to the island as ‘Hispaniola’ is a lie from 1822 to 1844 it was Haiti. Why the hell would Haitians have called their nation little Spain?
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“The penalties placed on the current Haiti seem to have cause grave damage; yet, the leadership over the last several hundred years has not been that great. I would think the people lived more like slaves under their own leadership then people who lived like slaves under slave owner leadership.”
Please think before writing such absurdities.
“I would think the people lived more like slaves under their own leadership then people who lived like slaves under slave owner leadership.””
No sh8 sherlock! The population of Haiti grew from 500,000 after the end of slavery to 11,000,000. During the 19th century, Haiti was second wealthiest land after Cuba in the Caribbean. Quit mindlessly repeating racist colonialist bullsh8. The wealth created was ample enough to allow some Haitians such as Sylla Laraque , the aviation pioneer Charles T. Weymann and others to live like kings in France.
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Abagond can geek out on the tsetse fly and European invasion of Africa: https://scitechafrica.com/2018/08/05/tsetse-fly-how-african-science-contained-it-and-european-invasion-escalated-it/
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@gro jo
“What is the problem between Haiti and the Dominican Republic? Could it have something to do with culture? Do you live in Haiti, if not would you move to Haiti? Is Haiti the same Haiti today as the Haiti of yesterday when the entire island was called Haiti for a brief moment of time?”
As I said in my comments I do not want to get involved in studying the history of Haiti!
Whatever you say is just fine with me. From your description Haiti today is on top of the world! Great!
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If you aren’t interested in Haiti’s history you should have remained silent on my comments since they were addressed to Abagond, not you. Haiti and DR share similar Afro-European cultures.
As for your claim that “Arabic” are “brown”, take a look at Moroccan billionaire Othman Benjelloun and tell me what shade of ‘brown’ he represents?
http://fr.le360.ma/people/photo-du-jour-othman-benjelloun-boit-les-paroles-de-rebbah-9845. As this picture shows, “Arabic” come in different colors.
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@ gro jo
There is a lot of history. There are different versions. I do not have a dog in any fight about any history. I read and attempt to understand. There are thousands of years of history from all over the world and as time goes by new information is discovered. Old thought are found out to be untrue!
If you follow me you will see I research, so I can comment on many places without having a deep knowledge of any one place.
“The history of Africa is difficult because they did not write their history so we have to wait until something is discovered.”
I believe the Spanish may have called the Island Little Spain I did not see that.
My understanding is the side of the island that the French controlled (which is today called Haiti) was treated more cruel by the French. After the revolution the French demanded and received money for each slave.
http://www.localhistories.org/haiti.html
https://www.britannica.com/place/Haiti/Military-regimes-and-the-Duvaliers
https://www.britannica.com/place/Haiti
Haiti or whatever it was called was under the control of the French when it was rich and powerful: http://www.localhistories.org/haiti.html “However after 1789 the ideas of the French Revolution such as liberty and equality reached the French colony of Saint-Domingue. On 14 August 1791 the slaves rebelled and a war ensued, which devastated the colony. However the war ended when France ended slavery in 1794.”
Haiti has been poor ever since! Once again the history of the leaders is not pleasant.
If you are from Haiti you would be able to write a history of that nation which would recognize people and activities that others would not even see!
On the never solved problem of are people black or white: I come from a mixed blood family and no one has ever called me white. Both of my grandfathers One born in 1856 and the other born in 1866 were born with mixed parents. One from Louisiana was called a mulatto at first, he died as a black man. My other grandfather was born in Kentucky one of his parents was white. He was raised by a black family and he was called black.
I do not understand how there can be any question if you are not black, red, or yellow then you are white. You have to be pure white according to all concepts I have read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course you realize this is malarkey, but those are the rules.
Have a good day!!
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Allan Shaw, are you now clear on why all “Arabic”(sic) are not ‘brown’? They range from ‘white’ to ‘black’ like all people who are ‘mixed’.
“However after 1789 the ideas of the French Revolution such as liberty and equality reached the French colony of Saint-Domingue. On 14 August 1791 the slaves rebelled and a war ensued, which devastated the colony. However the war ended when France ended slavery in 1794.”” My friend, I don’t do propaganda. All that crap about the ideas of the French Revolution such as liberty and equality reaching the slaves is propaganda. In 1758, when Toussaint L’Ouverture was a 14-15 year old lad Makandal led a slave rebellion in the colony and was burned at the stake for it. the slaves fought for their freedom every step of the way, they didn’t need the French to teach them about liberty and equality. When you read the books you get your information from try to read them critically.
Apparently, you read somewhere that Haiti was nothing but misery after the French left. The benighted Blacks couldn’t do anything right. If you had used your brain to evaluate such claims based on your personal knowledge of black people you would have seen through that lie instead of foolishly repeating it.
After the French left, Haitians did over a million pounds a year worth in trade with the British, built the greatest fort in the Americas and several palaces as well as started universal education for the people. Since you are so fond of reading, try reading Prince Saunders’ book: Haytian Papers.
Who was he? An educated African American who came to Haiti to teach. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Saunders.
King Henri Christophe, who ruled Northern Haiti accumulated a fortune, estimated by a British diplomat, of $69 million by 1820, that’s 4.6 times what the USA paid France for the Louisiana purchase. it is claimed that he intended to use some of that money to purchase what is now the Dominican Republic from Spain. If you googled Sylla Laraque, the Haitian multimillionaire, who built a seaside resort in France at the end of the 19th century, you’d find that he was considered the third richest man in France at that time, and he funded French aviator Louis Bleriot’s English Channel crossing in 1909. So, it’s nonsense that Haitians were invariably poor.
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Gro jo
Since you did not read the information I included I see no reason to continue! You did not even read my comment!
As I said I just research what is available at the time. I never read one book written about a subject. All books are opinions based on the study of the writers using their perspectives.Millions and millions of books have been written.
I believe you are the person that said in some comment that Arabs are not black because they are light skinned yet accept that mixed US citizens are black. I know many light skinned black people
So long!
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Did you tell me what particular shade of ‘brown’ mr. Benjelloun represents? No.
Did you write anything that backed your claim: “I would think the people lived more like slaves under their own leadership then people who lived like slaves under slave owner leadership.”? No.
All that you’ve done is to demonstrate your profound ignorance and confusion.
I’ve pointed out to you that between 1806 and 1820, the kingdom in the north of Haiti built citadelle Laferrière, several palaces and kicked off a drive to educate its population. Your reaction is to continue your ignorant bleating about unrelenting, generalized immiseration.
Since reading isn’t your thing, maybe pictures of the ruins of Laferrière and Sans-Souci palace, misidentified as part of the citadelle in pictures 4,5,7,9 and 10 will do the trick. Too bad if it doesn’t.
http://www.citadellelaferriere.com/Citadelle-Laferriere-Photos.html
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@gro jo:
http://www.localhistories.org/haiti.html
https://www.britannica.com/place/Haiti/Military-regimes-and-the-Duvaliers
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@Allen Shaw:
http://www.citadellelaferriere.com/Citadelle-Laferriere-Photos.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Saunders
http://fr.le360.ma/people/photo-du-jour-othman-benjelloun-boit-les-paroles-de-rebbah-9845
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@gro jo
Excellent pictures of successful people and a building.
As my son use to say to me “What does it mean to me?
What have I said that denies the success of individuals in Haiti? What have I said that there was no positive history of Haiti?
What I said is the history of Haiti as a total Island and also as a portion of the Island are mixed and difficult to determine what happen and when it happened.
That after the slave revolts in the portion of the island that today is called Haiti the French require the Haiti government to pay for each slave and it cause great harm to the nation that today is called Haiti.
Why are you in such denial of the mistreatment of the people of Haiti?
With one bad leader after another!
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Glad you liked the pictures and I’m happy to see that you modified your nonsensical claim that Haiti went straight to poverty hell after the French were kicked out for trying to re-enslave the free people of St-Domingue.
“Excellent pictures of successful people and a building.” Wrong, excellent pictures of three buildings, the Citadelle, Sans-Souci palace and the palace church.
“What I said is the history of Haiti as a total Island and also as a portion of the Island are mixed and difficult to determine what happen and when it happened.”
Only to the ignorant and the superficial. I know what happened and when it happened to the limit of serious study of the history.
“That after the slave revolts in the portion of the island that today is called Haiti the French require the Haiti government to pay for each slave and it cause great harm to the nation that today is called Haiti.”
Wrong. The French agreed to recognize Haiti after concluding that trying to reconquer it would be too costly in lives and resources. President Alexandre Sabès Pétion was the one who offered to indemnify them and his successor Jean-Pierre Boyer, who ruled over the entire island, agreed to pay the French by taxing the people, thereby undermining the unity of the nation. Contrast their policy to that of Dessalines and Christophe who built the nation’s defenses by building forts like the Citadelle and executing a French agent for suggesting that Haiti should subordinate its freedom to the benefit of France.
“As my son use to say to me “What does it mean to me?”
Bulls8. Why are you on this topic if you’re not lying?
“Why are you in such denial of the mistreatment of the people of Haiti?”
The greatest harm to Haiti was the US occupation from 1915 to 1934. Haiti became the financial slave of the USA thanks to gangster marines like general Smedley Butler who, in his words: “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America’s Most Decorated Soldier
Having served in the US military your entire professional life, you are intimately acquainted with what Butler wrote. Unfortunately for you, you lack his power of reflection. You are the one in denial. Please spend your time reflecting on the crimes you committed on behalf of US gangster capitalism instead of speculating on a subject you know only superficially.
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@ gro jo https://msu.edu/~williss2/carpentier/haiti.html
“Why are you on this topic if you’re not lying”
I have nothing to do but search for the facts of life. I believe you have a different view of Haiti then I and I have to find out what the actual facts are. You do not like Wikipedia so I have to seek other sources to confirm my believes about the history of your island.
You like to play games by correcting me as to who paid the money to France, telling me I am wrong. I do not care if was Boyer or Pétion, it was paid and stripped the common citizen of Haiti of their wealth.
You brag about the oversized home and the massive fort of the first king Henri I, you failed to care about the many poor people that were forced to work on the project. You failed to care about the attempt to set up a monarchy system, bragging about the people. (It was slave labor)
He and his group lived in splendor while the citizen were in poverty. His wife and daughter left the island after his death to live on the millions of dollars he had stored in France.
You failed to notice the first leader Dessalines was killed 1806 after two years by his own people.
I am not done. You are correct. I am a dumb azz and you are an intellectual; however, I have the time to research the actual details. You know everything and I am learning. I could never possibly know what you know; however I will continue to seek information.
Again, I ask, “Why are you in such denial of the mistreatment of the people of Haiti?”
By the way, I did not spend my entire life in the US Military, I retired from that job and another job and I have worked for myself. I take it that your accusation of our military doing whatever you believe they are doing is wrong means you are victimized in some way. I am truly sorry if you have been.
Your quote: “You are the one in denial. Please spend your time reflecting on the crimes you committed on behalf of US gangster capitalism instead of speculating on a subject you know only superficially”
The above sounds like a “Russian bot”.
Enjoy your day. If you are a citizen of the USA be sure to remember those who have fallen to protect you!
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@ gro jo
“Despite the Haitian victory, France refused to recognize the newly independent country’s sovereignty until 1825, in exchange for 150 million gold francs. This fee, demanded as retribution for the “lost property,”—slaves, land, equipment etc.—of the former colonialists, was later reduced to 90 million. Haiti agreed to pay the price to lift a crippling embargo imposed by France, Britain, and the United States— but to do so, the Haitian government had to take out high interest loans. The debt was not repaid in full until 1947”
Nothing was voluntary! How much do you think that was? See below
http://cepr.net/blogs/haiti-relief-and-reconstruction-watch/france-is-not-paying-back-what-it-owes-haiti-after-all
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Mr. Shaw, for a guy who claims not to care about this subject you hang on to it with the tenacity of a bulldog!
I see that you are using Alejo Carpentier as one of your ‘experts’ on the early history of Haiti, do you know that he was a novelist and not a historian? Did you read his novel and mistake it for historical writing?
“You brag about the oversized home and the massive fort of the first king Henri I, you failed to care about the many poor people that were forced to work on the project. You failed to care about the attempt to set up a monarchy system, bragging about the people. (It was slave labor)”
Prior to writing the above, I thought of you as merely ignorant, now you demonstrate pure stupidity. The Citadelle was built to defend the nation not because Christophe wanted bragging rights. The initial construction began under Dessalines. They cared enough about “the many poor people” to provide them with a nation where they could not be enslaved. You have a problem with people defending their nation because as an ex gangster for Uncle Sam you had to murder people like that.
“He and his group lived in splendor while the citizen were in poverty. His wife and daughter left the island after his death to live on the millions of dollars he had stored in France.”
Please, stop this meretricious display of stupidity. Christophe stored millions in France?! The France that murdered his eleven year old son Ferdinand, the France that caused him to torch his mansion at the start of the war of liberation? The France he was prepared to fight to the death? Please check what you write before posting it. His wife and daughters went to Britain and settled in Pisa, Italy where they died and were buried, not France.
“You failed to notice the first leader Dessalines was killed 1806 after two years by his own people.”
His majesty, Emperor Jacques I of Haiti was murdered by a greedy cabal of land grabbers and their foreign associates because he had the temerity to question the division of the properties the French abandoned. He wanted to know why those whose fathers are in Africa weren’t getting some of the land.
” By the way, I did not spend my entire life in the US Military, I retired from that job and another job and I have worked for myself. I take it that your accusation of our military doing whatever you believe they are doing is wrong means you are victimized in some way. I am truly sorry if you have been.”
Did you fail to understand general Butler’s words?
“Your quote: “You are the one in denial. Please spend your time reflecting on the crimes you committed on behalf of US gangster capitalism instead of speculating on a subject you know only superficially”
The above sounds like a “Russian bot”.”
We,so-called Russian bots, are addicted to the truth and you are in denial of your crimes for corporate America.
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@ gro jo
I am retired and can spend days and days learning about almost any insignificant subject matter! It makes no difference to me what I am learning, it is all new to me and I have a small sum to tide me over!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-Souci_Palace
The palace was more grand standing and was a part of Henri I lavish life style.
You may call me stupid; however when you remove the massive scales from your eyes you will see that if he would have lived he would have enslaved the people of Haiti.
Do you really believe that your calling me stupid has any bearing on my commenting. Many individuals call me stupid and then respond with nonsense.
Henri I was a King in a poor nation and the poor served him and his family and all of those royal people he established as rulers over the people!
“The Citadelle was built to defend the nation not because Christophe wanted bragging rights”
Citadelle Henri Christophe:(the initial construction began under Dessalines).The massive stone structure was built by up to 20,000 workers between 1805 and 1820
Since the Jewish people found out that you cannot build a fort and survived it was a well known fact that even if you could live inside the fort for “2 years”, you could not feed yourself or survive; therefore, the building of a huge fort in the middle of nowhere was a foolish move. Throughout history forts have been surrounded and the people inside reduced to nothing. See Masada, Troy
Please read about the Trojan Horse
The story of the Trojan Horse is well-known. First mentioned in the Odyssey, it describes how Greek soldiers were able to take the city of Troy after a fruitless ten-year siege by hiding in a giant horse supposedly left as an offering to the goddess Athena.Jul 25, 2014
The cost of returning to the island was prohibitive; therefore the French used the method of requiring the Haitian people to pay for their freedom.
Yes, you can say the people won! What was the true price of victory? Payment which were principle plus a high interest for more then 100 plus years.
I do not believe you read all of my material.
http://cepr.net/blogs/haiti-relief-and-reconstruction-watch/france-is-not-paying-back-what-it-owes-haiti-after-all
By the way, saying someone is not a historian only means you do not agree with someone. I cannot quote Wikipedia to you, so give me the name of your historian and I promise I will read his/her work. i believe you are depending on myth!
Prove me wrong by giving me the proper sources that you accept!
Please do not tell me what happened without including the source of your information.
We should be singing out of the same hymn book!
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@ Gro jo “They cared enough about “the many poor people” to provide them with a nation where they could not be enslaved. You have a problem with people defending their nation because as an ex gangster for Uncle Sam you had to murder people like that.”
Do you believe that hiding in a fort could protect the people of Haiti from the enemy. The only people that could be protected were the elite. The balance of the people would have come under the thumb of the invader while the leaders would have been hiding in the fort!
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Thank you Mr. Shaw for the refresher on Greek mythology. The more apt reference, I think, is the battle of Thermopylae where a smaller Greek army held off a larger Persian army.
“Do you believe that hiding in a fort could protect the people of Haiti from the enemy. The only people that could be protected were the elite. The balance of the people would have come under the thumb of the invader while the leaders would have been hiding in the fort!”
Wow! Your ignorance really knows no limit. Unfortunately for the French, they couldn’t help remember their pyrrhic victory at Crête-à-Pierrot fort on March 24, 1802. Read all about it here: https://wikimonde.com/article/Si%C3%A8ge_de_la_Cr%C3%AAte_%C3%A0_Pierrot
That ‘victory’ cost them 1,500 to 2,000 soldiers including generals Debelle and Dugua. Charles Leclerc, Napoleon’s brother in law and general Jean Boudet were wounded. The fort’s garrison lost between 500 to 600 soldiers and they managed to break the French blockade with a bold and successful attack on the French line, leaving behind their dead and wounded.
“The palace was more grand standing and was a part of Henri I lavish life style.
You may call me stupid; however when you remove the massive scales from your eyes you will see that if he would have lived he would have enslaved the people of Haiti.”
I see that you’ve mastered the art of reading selectively. This section of the Wikipedia article you linked to escaped your attention: “The impressiveness of Sans-Souci was part of Henri Christophe’s program to demonstrate to foreigners, particularly Europeans and Americans, the power and capability of the black race. The African pride in the construction of the king’s palace was captured by the comment of his advisor, Pompée Valentin Vastey (Baron Valentin de Vastey), who said that the palace and its nearby church, “erected by descendants of Africans, show that we have not lost the architectural taste and genius of our ancestors who covered Ethiopia, Egypt, Carthage, and old Spain with their superb monuments.”[4]”
His lavish lifestyle had a political purpose that you failed to grasp, it was propaganda for the Black race. I never claimed that the man was a saint, what I claim is that as a ruler he worked for the good of his people by starting the foundations of universal education, trying to improve agriculture and create a navy that could protect his people and disrupt the slave trade at sea. If he had run Haiti from 1806 to 1844 Haiti would have been better off.
“We should be singing out of the same hymn book!” Fine by me. Start by reading: 1) Cole, Hubert (1967). Christophe: King of Haiti. London: Eyre & Spottiswoode. 2) Pompée Valentin Baron de Vastey (1819). An Essay on the Causes of the Revolution and Civil Wars of Hayti. printed at the Western Luminary Office. 3) Trouillot, Michel-Rolph (1995). Silencing the Past. Boston: Beacon Press.
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I did not miss the part about impressing someone; however who lived in that impressive home beside the king and family. You want to believe, yet you send me a reference written in French, I speak one language like such dumb asz’s like me.
As I say you are not able to see who was being hosed, because you want to believe!
Troy may be a myth; however your understanding about the intentions of the early Haitian leaders is a close to a myth as possible.
Who could see the huge pile of brick besides the Haitians. If any navy would have arrived they would have entered the island from miles away from there. The building of that massive fort is equivalent to the wall between US and Mexico, the Hadrian Wall or even better the great wall of China which allowed millions to enter through the gates.
Speaking about deaths the numbers you site are almost insignicant when discussing war during that time period.
Yes , after any combat someone will write some negative comments. The French had a better thought, strip the nation of there wealth and stay away and allow the people to brag about there huge debt. (1825 on). The payment made by the Haitian people may have been equal to the profits earned when the French were in charge; however, they had blown it with their torture.
See Code Noir
http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/haiti/voodoo/syncretism.htm
For the full text of the Code, go to:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/335/
Look at you still tying to ignore everything I say and sending me articles in French. I am too dam dumb to speak foreign languages. I lived in Germany for three years and could not speak German any better then a baby. Remember you have been calling me stupid, yet you can’t even understand that those beautiful buildings were for the rich only. How many people could fit into the fort?
You must come from the elitist of the nation and do not understand the poverty that exist all around you! Today 41 percent of the people of Haiti live below the poverty line. 25% make less than $1.90 per day, 50.8% less then $3.20 78.9% live below $5.50
By the way I can not publish every thing in the articles, yet you fail to see that I include the articles for you to read.
Now in English, what can I read that is different then what I have sent to you?
Other word you can use instead of stupid
stupid
[ stoo-pid, styoo‐ ]
SEE DEFINITION OF stupid
Synonyms for stupid
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@gro jo
I see that my last comment was deleted. I did not make a copy so you will be denied my silly thoughts. The battle that you mention was early on and in reading about it I did not see much other then a battle started by shooting a person carrying a message. I cannot determine who won because in the end the Haitians left the fort and moved up in the mountains. That was a French fort or maybe an original Spanish fort. The total outcome was not a winning event for either side.
I try hard not to send you anything from Wikipedia because you have expressed a lack of faith in such articles.I doubt if I read the information from that source because I do not communicate with anyone using data when the the individual expresses a lack of faith in the source. it is very easy to just enter the question in my search box and i get many different options.
The thought that they were going to show the world about blacks when you understand the complex mixture of citizens in Haiti at that time. From blacks to Whites, from English, French and Spanish and people from other islands how could anyone show what blacks could do. Most of those leaders appear to be mixed blooded. The problem seemed to be the Affranchi’s wanted to be French citizens or be treated like them. And the run away slaves were in a mood to want to get rid of the French and slavery. The English and the US were mixed up in the time period and the Spanish were helping.
As I said it was a very complicated moment!
I want to thank you for your time. I have read quite a bit more about Haiti than I have any other of the Islands in the Caribbean. I would have to spend time just to be able to make any further comments. It is interesting that on two separate time in Haiti someone has attempted to become a King and establish a monarch of individuals who would be above the mass of people.(Emperor Jacques I and Henry I) and later Faustin-Élie Soulouque). Even Papa Doc and his son Baby Doc have ruled in a similar manner in current times.
“Jean-Claude Duvalier (French pronunciation: ), nicknamed “Baby Doc” (Haitian Creole: Bebe Dòk; 3 July 1951 – 4 October 2014), was a Haitian politician who was the President of Haiti from 1971 until he was overthrown by a popular uprising in 1986. He succeeded his father François “Papa Doc” Duvalier as the ruler of Haiti after his death in 1971. After assuming power, he introduced cosmetic changes to his father’s regime and delegated much authority to his advisors. Thousands of Haitians were killed or tortured, and hundreds of thousands fled the country during his presidency.[2] He maintained a notoriously lavish lifestyle (including a state-sponsored US$ 2 million wedding in 1980) while poverty among his people remained the most widespread of any country in the Western Hemisphere.[3]”
I do not read books written by people who have set their mind about what happened in history. I prefer to go back and read articles from the same sources that the book writers used.
I will now get back to some other subject matter!
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Mr. Shaw, you are a very confused man, you should consult your doctor about your state of confusion.
In reply to your claim that Haiti, circa 1810-1820, was poor I showed you pictures of some of the important constructions Haitians undertook and finished.
Your white supremacist bias led you to write this bit of nonsense: “The thought that they were going to show the world about blacks when you understand the complex mixture of citizens in Haiti at that time. From blacks to Whites, from English, French and Spanish and people from other islands how could anyone show what blacks could do. Most of those leaders appear to be mixed blooded. The problem seemed to be the Affranchi’s wanted to be French citizens or be treated like them. And the run away slaves were in a mood to want to get rid of the French and slavery. The English and the US were mixed up in the time period and the Spanish were helping.” Interesting bit of mind reading on your part. you know better than they did who they were and what they wanted to accomplish!
Pompée Valentin Vastey (Baron Valentin de Vastey), the man whose quote you found so objectionable was indeed a redheaded mulatto, Christophe’s chief architect, Henri Carré, was also a mulatto and a number of white German technicians were employed. The man in charge was Henri Christophe. By the way, Christophe, de Vastey and Henri Carré were all classified as “black” under French rule.
Aliko Dangote, the black Nigerian billionaire is building the biggest oil refinery in the world by hiring Chinese, Indian and a whole host of non-black help to pull off the task, does that mean that the project ceases to be his? Two black men conceived of and executed the construction of San-Souci, the Citadelle and several more buildings. A third black man praised their achievement in language you found inaccurate if not offensive. The money to finance these constructions came from trade with, mainly, the British. So much for your claim of total isolation, eh?
You whined about my not providing you with sources for my claims, I provided you with sources and you whined again: “I do not read books written by people who have set their mind about what happened in history. I prefer to go back and read articles from the same sources that the book writers used.
I will now get back to some other subject matter!”
Fine by me. Get going.
“@gro jo
I see that my last comment was deleted. I did not make a copy so you will be denied my silly thoughts. The battle that you mention was early on and in reading about it I did not see much other then a battle started by shooting a person carrying a message. I cannot determine who won because in the end the Haitians left the fort and moved up in the mountains. That was a French fort or maybe an original Spanish fort. The total outcome was not a winning event for either side.”
Look up PYRRHIC VICTORY. as a man who makes reference to the Trojan war, I assumed you were familiar with this bit of Ancient European history. Hell, let me provide you with the definition and you can look up the history behind it.
Pyrrhic victory
A Pyrrhic victory is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Someone who wins a Pyrrhic victory has also taken a heavy toll that negates any true sense of achievement.
The French were so embarrassed by their ‘victory’ at Crête-à-Pierrot that they lied to Napoleon when they reported to him. When they got back to Port-au-Prince, they held a parade where the troops marched in square formation with the center of the squares empty of troops. This charade was led by the only French general, Pamphile de Lacroix, who wasn’t either killed or wounded at Crête-à-Pierrot.
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@ gro jo“The impressiveness of Sans-Souci was part of Henri Christophe’s program to demonstrate to foreigners, particularly Europeans and Americans, the power and capability of the black race. The African pride in the construction of the king’s palace was captured by the comment of his advisor, Pompée Valentin Vastey (Baron Valentin de Vastey), who said that the palace and its nearby church, “erected by descendants of Africans, show that we have not lost the architectural taste and genius of our ancestors who covered Ethiopia, Egypt, Carthage, and old Spain with their superb monuments.”[4]”
I would like to remind you that the slaves were brought from sub-Saharan Africa Not North and North East Africa.
Henry I was a waster of resources!
What is being produced today? Who are their customers?
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2018-04-09/efforts-in-haiti-to-boost-rice-production-face-many-obstacles
Why has sugar production fallen?
https://knoema.com/atlas/Haiti/topics/Agriculture/Crops-Production-Quantity-tonnes/Sugar-cane-production
http://www.new-ag.info/en/country/profile.php?a=202
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@gro jo
The realism of the rebellion: Haiti became poor immediately
Built with slave labor:
http://solarey.net/built-in-1805-to-1820-citadelle-laferriere-haiti/
“The Citadel La Ferriere was built by King Henri Christophe between the years 1805 and 1820, for the purpose of being able to resist an attack by the French. It is thought that the Citadel la Ferriere was designed by Etienne Henry Barré with the literal meaning of la Ferriere being the blacksmith’s pouch.
Built with the forced labor of 20,000 newly “freed” African descendants of Haiti, this monumental fortress sits on almost 20 acres of land, 17 miles south of Cap-Haitien.”
That means they did not get paid for building the fort and probably did not get paid for the castles!(?)
“Before the construction of Sans-Souci, Milot was a French plantation that Christophe had been in charge of during the Revolution. Infamous for his cruelty, and it is unknown how many laborers perished during construction of the palatial building.”
https://library.brown.edu/haitihistory/8.html
“Conclusion
Upon declaring independence, Haiti claimed a singular place in world history. The Haitian revolution, lasting from 1791 to 1804, culminated in the first independent nation in the Caribbean, the second democracy in the western hemisphere, and the first black republic in the world.”
Since the revolution, over 200 years ago, Haiti has struggled with external and internal dilemmas. The revolutionary wars had destroyed nearly all of the country’s colonial infrastructure and production capabilities. In the 1800s Europeans and Americans ostracized the fledgling nation politically and economically, contributing to Haiti’s decline from one of the world’s wealthiest colonies to one of its most impoverished countries.
https://library.brown.edu/haitihistory/5.html
22 August 1791
The slaves launch their insurrection in the North. That night Boukman and his forces march throughout the region, taking prisoners and killing whites. By midnight, plantations are in flames and the revolt has begun. Armed with torches, guns, sabers, and makeshift weapons the rebels continue their devastation as they go from plantation to plantation. By six the next morning, only a few slaves in the area have yet to join Boukman, and scores of plantations and their owners are destroyed.
23 August 1791
By the end of the day, “the finest sugar plantations of Saint Domingue were literally devoured by flames.” A horrified colonist wrote that “one can count as many rebel camps as there were plantations.”
The planters are able to protect Le Cap but cannot save their plantations. They send frantic requests for military aid to Santo Domingo, Cuba, Jamaica, and the United States to no avail. Within 8 days the rebels devastate 184 sugar plantations in the north, losing planters millions of French livres. By September all the plantations within fifty miles of Le Cap are destroyed.
8 September 1791
The revolution spreads, becoming more militant and organized. On the plantations it takes less incite riots. Plantation crops are ruined as entire fields of slaves desert or simply stop working. In the “magnificent” Plaine-des-Cayes, comprising of almost 100 sugar plantations, every single plantation is destroyed. Many of the planters, “financially and morally ruined,” are desperate to save their fortunes while others consider themselves fortunate “just to get out of this wretched colony with their lives and a shirt on their backs.”
In 2006, Famine and disease swept the country, exacerbated by Haiti’s lack of infrastructure or governmental services.
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jean-Pierre-Boyer
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Code-Rural
Failed attempt to control people!
Use of Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik#Origin_of_the_term Includes 27 References, 2 notes and 7 works
The term Realpolitik was coined by Ludwig von Rochau, a German writer and politician in the 19th century.[2] His 1853 book Grundsätze der Realpolitik angewendet auf die staatlichen Zustände Deutschlands describes the meaning of the term:[3]
The study of the forces that shape, maintain and alter the state is the basis of all political insight and leads to the understanding that the law of power governs the world of states just as the law of gravity governs the physical world. The older political science was fully aware of this truth but drew a wrong and detrimental conclusion—the right of the more powerful. The modern era has corrected this unethical fallacy, but while breaking with the alleged right of the more powerful one, the modern era was too much inclined to overlook the real might of the more powerful and the inevitability of its political influence.
Haiti faces the factual reality that “the powerful control and seldom care about others”
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@ Abagond I have responded twice and have had my response zapped. Could you at least tell me what I am doing tht is wrong.
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Abagond, please let Mr. Shaw have his say. I can’t wait to see what confused nonsense he has come up with since, Mon May 27th 2019 at 08:24:54.
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@ Allen Shaw
You did have some comments in the spam filter. They are now public. Please let me know if any are missing.
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Poor Mr. Shaw, in your confusion, you buttress my argument that Haiti wasn’t as poor as he thinks after the revolution.
Mr. Shaw, did the French grow rice when they were in charge? No, because the real money was in sugar, indigo and other crops. The USNews article you linked to mentions rice production in the Artibonite valley and irrigation of the land for that purpose:
” GONAIVES, HAITI – AS the sun starts to set on Haiti’s most fertile valley, a silent group of women sweeps grains of newly harvested rice into large, yellow mounds, unfazed by the acrid smoke of nearby wood fires.
From there, the rice is placed in barrels, where it will be cleaned over those fires. Then, in a small back room on a winter afternoon, it will be packed in bags and shipped from this mill in west-central Haiti’s Artibonite Valley, ending up in the kitchens of Haitian expatriates and other discriminating cooks across the United States.
Sowing Seeds for the Future Across the West…
This was once a common scene in Haiti. Now it’s a rarity. A few decades ago, Haiti was self-sufficient in rice, a crop so important here that the U.N. estimates it makes up about a quarter of people’s daily diet. It even grew enough to export. But production collapsed after the U.S. and international lenders forced the country to dramatically lower tariffs that protected local farmers, from 50 percent to 3 percent in the last three decades.
A quarter-century later, about 80 percent of Haiti’s rice is imported, and the country is a major market for U.S. exporters. Faced with cheap imports, the country’s dire poverty, natural disasters, lack of investment and collapsing infrastructure, production is still dropping in Haiti despite government efforts to halt the slide. Last year, the government reported a rise and a subsequent drop because of bad weather.
Some Haitian entrepreneurs say there is money to be made growing rice. Skeptics, however, say hopes to resurrect the rice industry are misplaced and, with too few resources and little international support, represent the challenges that many poor, underdeveloped countries face in turning their economies around.”
My dear Mr. Shaw, Haiti was self-sufficient in rice because as free men and women they did the hard work necessary to feed their family, not because they were anybody’s slave. They rebuilt what was destroyed during the war for emancipation and independence and built forts such as Citadelle Laferrière, Jacques, Alexandre, and refurbished those built by the French and others. Since you like pictures, you might like this link. https://www.mappinghaitianhistory.com/fortifications/
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“I would like to remind you that the slaves were brought from sub-Saharan Africa Not North and North East Africa.”
Oh, right, I forgot that you are pushing the myth of an unbridgeable gap between “sub-Saharan Africa” and “North and North East Africa”. You are free to hold that view but I’ll side with the baron on this issue. Egypt is next door neighbor to Sudan. The Arabs called that land Bilad-al-sudan , literally “country of the blacks”. Do I have to give you the definition of Ethiopia as well? My dear friend, quit embarrassing yourself, I’m beginning to feel sorry for you! I want to thank you for correcting my faulty recollection of the name of King Henry I’s architect it was “Barré” not “Carré” as I had written above.
” “Conclusion
Upon declaring independence, Haiti claimed a singular place in world history. The Haitian revolution, lasting from 1791 to 1804, culminated in the first independent nation in the Caribbean, the second democracy in the western hemisphere, and the first black republic in the world.””
I know you hate it when I correct your source but this quote is wrong, Haiti was not a republic when it was founded but an empire with an emperor Jacques I of Haiti. The peculiarity of that empire was that it didn’t have ‘nobles’ and the children of the emperor didn’t automatically inherit the throne! No, Haiti wasn’t a ‘democracy’ because power was in the hands of the army. That was one of the weaknesses of the Haitian revolution.
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As for Egypt, I’ll only point out the fact that two of its greatest dynasties, the 12th and 26th, were Sudanese(Black). So much for ‘white’ Egypt eh?
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” Why has sugar production fallen?
https://knoema.com/atlas/Haiti/topics/Agriculture/Crops-Production-Quantity-tonnes/Sugar-cane-production”
As free men and women Haitians decided they didn’t want to produce that crop, unfortunately, their governments tried to go against their wishes, so they took to the hills where they grew coffee and other crops that didn’t remind them of their poverty and premature deaths from overwork. They let the sugar plantations rot under the sun along with the slave system it engendered.
The end result of their wise choice was a population that grew from 300,000-500,000 after 1804 to 11,000,000 today.
Was post-independence Haiti as rich as St-Domingue? Hell no, it wasn’t meant to be, so, bray all you want about ‘poverty’, I’ll take freedom over ‘wealth’ every time, especially when the wealth benefited others. As a sign of Haiti’s ‘poverty’ you might enjoy pictures of the very ‘poor’ gingerbread houses late 19th century Haiti is known for:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0RLDHe4yY0)
Who were these houses built for? People like Mr. Pierre Léger, the number one producer of vetiver oil in the world.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0RLDHe4yY0).
Note that he is a black man with mulatto children, I point that fact out because people like you make a big deal about mixed race people, attributing their talents solely to their white ancestry. In this case, the brains come from the black side. Please don’t hesitate to write more racist nonsense, I enjoy straightening you out!
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Haitian “Gingerbread Houses” built by the very ‘poor’ Haitians in late 19th century. Lol
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ockj-Lc5no)
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@ gro jo and abagond; Since nothing I respond is allowed to be published i yield to this one sided conversation. I have included publications with practically no opinion: yet, nothing is published.
I must accept that which gro jo says is the position of this site and no other information is desired!
Fact without reference:
No Egyptians or Sudanese were brought to the US or Haiti as slaves.
If it is a fact that in the United States ANY PERSON WITH BLACK BLOOD IS BLACK THE SAME MUST BE TRUE FOR THE MIDDLE EAST. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ALL OF THE BLACKS TO HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM SUB SAHARAN AFRICA (for thousands of years) TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND FREED FOR BLACK BLOOD TO BE ABSENT FROM THOSE NATIONS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR COLOR.
The conflict that freed Haiti destroyed the infrastructure and the production of the sugar cane industry. Haiti became poor immediately.
The building of the palaces and forts was done with “forced labor’!
Denial by anyone of history does not make the denial true and nit picking about a republic or a monarch is small potatoes.
There was an attempt by leaders of Haiti to form a form of government like France with a “King or Monarch ‘ or whatever he was called and a group of elites called dukes and duchesses Thus you had Jacques and Henry I plus several other attempts, all ending in disaster. For close to two hundred years the leadership of Haiti has been faulty.
The failure of investment from outside sources has left Haiti currently in desperate condition. The land is in danger of total failure!
Even if you do not publish this at least you will have to read it before you dump it!
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@ Allen Shaw
If you put too many links in a comment, especially a long one, it can look like spam to the spam filter. That said, all your comments that were in the spam filter are now public.
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Thanks
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@gro jo
“Poor Mr. Shaw, in your confusion, you buttress my argument that Haiti wasn’t as poor as he thinks after the revolution.”
Haiti has been poor every since “the revolution”! Regardless of the reason,
by choice as proud free Black people
or lack of opportunity! Haiti remains the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere. Its land is deteriorating and some might predict a total land failure.
The 11 million people on such a small portion of the island are a burden and will contribute to the west side of the islands demise. It seems as though the citizens of Haiti can get no help from their neighbor.
Look at a satellite pictures of the island and it is easy to see the difference between the East and the West.
Attempts by outsiders to assist are blocked by people who deny the current conditions of Haiti.
Instead of actually reading what I am saying Gro Jo is blinding them self to the reality and feeling sorry for some one who is just suggesting that Haiti needs help!
Do not feel sorry for me gro jo, i have lived a good long life, faced my realities and made corrections as I faced them!
I provided references which point out some of the problems. I understand that I cannot provide many references. Go back and read the comments I included. I tried to point out that Haiti has a leadership problem and an excessive population.
Abagond has provide my comments that had been put into their spam file. Perhaps you might go back and read the information I provided.
One thing to remember when it comes to production. The many buildings (Forts and Castles) in Haiti were built with forced labor. (That means in a way slavery).
The original Haiti government wanted to tie the citizen to a piece of property and perhaps measure their production (another form of slavery)
Even today when no one makes a person work, many individuals will not carry their weight and find ways to take from others who are willing workers.
There does not seem to be anyplace for Haitians to migrate, to free the Island of their population and such a population expansion seems to mean there are no birth control programs in place.
Even do-gooders who go to Haiti become discouraged by the overwhelming problems they see!
It is useless to provide me with any references that are not in English. I only have the capability of speaking that language.
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“It is useless to provide me with any references that are not in English. I only have the capability of speaking that language.”
Lol, you don’t even understand that language very well.
“Even do-gooders who go to Haiti become discouraged by the overwhelming problems they see!”
You mean people like the Clintons who destroyed the Haitian rice industry created by the free citizens of Haiti using the techniques they brought with them from Africa? The world would be a better place without such “do-gooders”.
“The original Haiti government wanted to tie the citizen to a piece of property and perhaps measure their production (another form of slavery)” This is really stupid. L’Ouverture’s , Dessalines’ and Christophe’s governments did what every other government at the time did to prevent vagrancy. If you weren’t in the army or had a job in the cities, you had no business being there. How was that different from the British laws governing the poor at the time? Hell, the British government could and did send quite a few of its poor to the workhouse and its overseas territories as late as the mid 19th century. Such laws were common in most of the nations I know of during that time.
“Abagond has provide my comments that had been put into their spam file. Perhaps you might go back and read the information I provided.”
No thanks, I got the gist of your claims. To put it succinctly, Whitey departs and everything goes to hell in a handbasket. I reject that claim for the nonsense it is. It isn’t a very original claim, Jared Diamond made it in his book: Guns, Germs, and Steel (1997). I rejected it as bullsh8 then as I do now.
“Haiti has been poor every since “the revolution”! Regardless of the reason,
by choice as proud free Black people
or lack of opportunity! Haiti remains the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere. Its land is deteriorating and some might predict a total land failure.
The 11 million people on such a small portion of the island are a burden and will contribute to the west side of the islands demise. It seems as though the citizens of Haiti can get no help from their neighbor.
Look at a satellite pictures of the island and it is easy to see the difference between the East and the West.
Attempts by outsiders to assist are blocked by people who deny the current conditions of Haiti.”
What you and Diamond refuse to own up to is your nation’s share of the responsibility for the disaster created. No, I’m not blaming ‘whitey’ for everything but your claim of “do-gooders” wanting to ‘save’ the Haitians from themselves is a lie so old it predates Haiti. In 1802 Boney sent his army to re-enslave the people of St-Domingue. Their propaganda was full of beautiful words about how France was the only guarantor of the freedom of black people. Please don’t pretend that you understand demographics, we both know you don’t. Haiti is only the 28th most crowded country on earth with 388.6 people per square kilometer. Compared to China with 20,098.4 or Monaco with 25,709.4, it’s pretty empty.
You are free to believe what you want. I don’t need to pretend that I take seriously the bs you write.
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Mr. Shaw wrote: “I would like to remind you that the slaves were brought from sub-Saharan Africa Not North and North East Africa.”
My, such certainty about a place our scholar deems unimportant and of not much interest to him! Those the name Felix Darfour mean anything to you Mr. Shaw? He was a Haitian citizen born in Darfur Sudan who immigrated to Haiti and founded the newspaper L’eclaireur Haytien. He was shot by Boyer’s regime for protesting too much.
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Those goshdarn nigras are always a burden to decent people! If only us “ahem”, decent people would fix the problem. We need to put them to work and show them the way like ~~Arbeit macht frei~~ good old Protestant Work Ethic!!
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“Those the name Felix Darfour mean anything to you Mr. Shaw? He was a Haitian citizen born in Darfur Sudan who immigrated to Haiti and founded the newspaper L’eclaireur Haytien. He was shot by Boyer’s regime for protesting too much.”
Those should be Does above.
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@satanforce I guess you are unaware of the condition of the land in Haiti. I have not thought that each and every person in Haiti was black! They were mixed during the period I studied. Nothing was said about work in the sense that everyone did not want to work. Your comment is defensive and unhelpful to the conversation.
I studied the period from 1790 to 1825 when the French started requiring the Haitians to pay for the freed slaves. I also saw the history of some of the leaders.
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gro jo “Those the name Felix Darfour mean anything to you Mr. Shaw?”
No, the name of any successful Haitian has nothing to do with my conversation. You are so busy calling me stupid you failed to read and understand what I have been writing.
I have been writing about “the people” of Haiti starting in 1790 going forward thru 1825.(The Revolution and the results) While there is every sign that leaders have used the wealth, there is no sign that the “people” have been treated correctly.
Building castles and forts with forced labor has not helped the people. Stop writing about how stupid I am and read some of my comments with an open mind.
There is an equal amount of intelligence among all people, They just have to be given the information. When you have over crowding you cannot provide proper education for the masses! The results are a few highly qualified people and the balance not so well off!
Today, Haiti is the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere! Once again I ask you to look at a satellite picture of the island and see the change between the two nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Haiti
Only 36 plus % of Haiti is arable (see above reference)
Party to: Biodiversity, Climate Change, Desertification, Law of the Sea, Marine Dumping, Marine Life Conservation, Ozone Layer Protection
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gro jo “He was a Haitian citizen born in Darfur Sudan who immigrated to Haiti and founded the newspaper L’eclaireur Haytien”
There is a difference between a slave and an immigrant! Immigrants come at their own free will and that man did not become a slave, he founded a newspaper. Slaves were forced on a ship and were brought to Haiti to do work for some owner and did not get paid!
Why would you refer to such a person when speaking about slaves?
I cannot respond to your comments about who hurt the people today. it seems as though you are happy with the conditions that exist in Haiti and maybe you live there. If the Haitian people are happy, so be it!
I have not made any comparison to the world I referred to the Western Hemisphere.
You will be happy to know that I am finished. I do not mind having you think I am stupid, I live with the old saying “sticks and stones may break my bones; but, word will never hurt me”
So long its been good to know ya!
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@gro jo
Comment deleted for being little more than an exercise in name calling.
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Abagond,
BULLSH8.
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I hope that I am not too late for this but I would really like you to look at aspects of Caribbean history for the Black History Months that you plan to write on. Topics such as the Caribbean’s role in the construction of the Panama canal, the West India regiment and the Tarranto Mutiny during the First World War, post-independence educational reforms in the English speaking Caribbean after 1960, the collapse in sugar prices and the end of slavery in the region in the 19th century, Caribbean slave rebellions from the sixteenth to the nineteenth centuries (not just the Haitian Revolution even though I find it very interesting!), Haiti after the Revolution, a history of Afro-Cubans, CARICOM and regional integration in the 21st century. I am very interested in Caribbean economic development and history. If it is possible at some point I would love to read your insights into this often neglected region.
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The Black Jacobins
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“gro jo
As for Egypt, I’ll only point out the fact that two of its greatest dynasties, the 12th and 26th, were Sudanese(Black). So much for ‘white’ Egypt eh?”
CORRECTION: the 25th, not the 26th, was the other ‘Sudanese’ dynasty.
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After thousands of years of blacks and other mixing it up in mankind’s greatest exercise, how could people be anything other then “Mixed”.
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@ Abagond: I am considering purchasing Dr. Henrick Clark’s African People In World History.
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“For the rest of 2019 every month will Black History Month, one century a month. I am getting a late start, but it will go roughly like this:
I say “roughly” because by the end of August I want to do a post on 1619.”
2019 has come and gone with no such writings by J. Abagond, an explanation would be nice.
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Well in 1619 the first slaves were brought to the US. How much more can be said. Can we go back and find books written about that period.
It is a date in history!!
Where did the slaves come from? Do you know how they were treated.? Were they indentured, or slaves? Did they live in the homes of the few people living in the community? Where will the information come from that you want published? Can anyone document the period since most of the colonist could not read nor write.
I believe all we have is another story of enslaved people around the world.
Could you perhaps write a story about job opportunities for black youth today?
Where can they find work.
How can they be educated.
Who is donating money to help them in unknown Scholarships:
https://www.scholarships.com/.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/misguided-focus-1619-beginning-slavery-us-damages-our-understanding-american-history-180964873/
I say take advantage of “what is now” and if you want to study history study the entire period, not just one small speck of history!
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Along with helping Simon Bolivar liberate a good chunk of Latin America, Haiti had the honor of being the first nation to officially recognize Greek independence and may have provided 25 tons of coffee to their cause. There’s some doubt about the coffee and Haitians traveling to Greece to take part in their war of independence, as they did in Latin America.
(http://hougansydney.com/haiti/how-haiti-helped-greece-in-its-fight-for-ndependence)
(https://neoskosmos.com/en/29226/haiti-and-the-greek-revolution/)
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Chapter seven of Victor Bulmer-Thomas’ book: The Economic History of the Caribbean since the Napoleonic Wars (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287266739_The_Economic_History_of_the_Caribbean_Since_the_Napoleonic_Wars) gives a more sober evaluation of Haiti’s economy. According to his findings, it wasn’t until 1890 that Brazil’s coffee production caused the collapse of Haiti’s economy along with onerous debts extorted from her.
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