Colourism, or colorism, sometimes called shadism, is where light-skinned people are seen as more beautiful or just plain better than dark-skinned ones of the same race. You see it among blacks in America, the Caribbean, Britain, Brazil and probably elsewhere. You also see it in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh where it probably goes back at least 3000 years.
This post is about the American sort.
In America anyone who looks at least part black African is considered to be “black” – the One Drop Rule. To whites the big thing is whether or not you are are white. While they may favour light-skinned blacks over dark-skinned ones, they still see both as black and all that goes with that. “Black is black”.
Blacks, on the other hand, make a much bigger deal about the different shades, even within families.
Some dark-skinned blacks think the light-skinned ones have an easier life and hate them for it – and yet wish they were more like them!
Some of the light-skinned ones, on the other hand, feel their blackness is doubted and questioned, even though they experience racism too – though, yes, some are glad they are not so dark and may even look down on those who are!
All this is an effect of white thinking on black people: white is good, black is bad and therefore light skin is better than dark skin. It is a part of black-on-black racism.
On one level everyone knows light-skinned people are no better than dark-skinned people. But at another level people believe what they have been told since they were children in a thousand ways: that light skin is better.
And, yes, in some ways light skin is better:
- Studies show that light-skinned blacks have more education and make more money. Some say this goes all the way back to slave days when light-skinned blacks worked as house slaves – because they were often the master’s children – while dark-skinned ones were field slaves.
- Many black men prefer women with light skin and “good hair” over dark skin and natural hair, despite their lip service to black beauty. Thus the phrase, “You’re pretty for a dark-skinned girl.” Light-skinned women are more likely to get married. They also find themselves hated by dark-skinned women.
There has always been black men who truly love natural black beauty, all of it, over white beauty, even before the 1960s and the whole “Black is beautiful” thing. But, both then and now, they seem to be outnumbered by black men who prefer whiter-looking women.
But keep in mind that colourism can work both ways: sometimes light-skinned blacks are picked on growing up, being told that they are not “black enough”.
So how light is light? The most famous test is the brown paper bag test. In the early 1900s it was used to keep anyone darker than a paper bag out of paper bag parties.
But in practice it is not so simple. What is dark in Louisiana, for example, can be considered light in Georgia.
See also:
Good post!
I have a few questions:
But do you think that whites actually favor “light skinned” blacks or are just less threatned by them?
How do they determine how much money and education blacks of different hues make? Who’s “light” and who’s “dark”? As I said in a previous post on this site, most blacks are in the medium-brown/dark-brown range, so how does that gets determined in a unbiased way?
Same thing with black male “preferences”, since most black women don’t look “white-ish”, how far would that “liking” go? And do most men have that much leeway in the women they date?
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Also, Abagond, the defintion of colorism is half-incorrect:
“Colorism is a form of discrimination in which human beings are accorded differing social and treatment based on skin color.”
It goes both ways, in terms, of who’s doing the discrimination and who’s getting discriminated. One famous case in Louisana back in the mid ’80s saw a “darker skinned” black female supervisor discriminating against a “lighter skinned” employee.
—-
I’m curious to see your answers to the questions I posted in post #1. Great insight!
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Great post— Let’s speak honestly.
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I am glad both of you like it – I knew you two would be the hardest critics among my delurked readers.
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I do not know where those studies draw the line between light and dark skin. Good point.
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I said that whites “favour” light-skinned blacks because studies show that they are more likely to be hired – even when they have less education and experience than dark-skinned blacks!!! If that is not favouring, then nothing is.
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I said black men “prefer” light-skinned women. Who they wind up being with is a whole other story. Just because I think Beyonce is beautiful does not mean my wife is that light. It does not work out like that.
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In general, the more you are like middle-class white people – in your looks, your dress, your outlook, your education, etc – the more comfortable they will be with you. So, yes, that gives light-skinned blacks a built-in advantage.
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Good points, Abagond.
Still, I don’t fully agree with the notion of what black men “prefer”. I’m sorry, I just think statements like that are such a gross generalization. Personally, I never saw any clear “light skinned preference” with the majority of black folks I’ve ever known in terms of attraction, but then again, somewhere else it may be a different story. As long as there is one “exception”, no one can speak on what any particular group of people like.
Do most white men prefer blondes? We’ll never know. Interestingly enough, there’s been no study on that. Or how blondes and brunettes fare against other in the “real world”. Or how whites react to the differing shades of non-black minorities (East and South Asians, “Hispanics”). Don’t you think that would be a really good idea? What do you think the results would be, Aba?
Also, I agree about the built-in advantage with “light skinned blacks” in terms of making middle class whites comfortable, but don’t features and hair play a part in that, too? I mean, would a “lite and brite” black men with a broad nose and kinky hair play the same with white folks as far as comfort go?
And …that study about the hiring practices of blacks of different shades comes from an University of Georgia study a few years back. I thought it was really interesting when I first heard about it UNTIL I heard that most of the participants were young, undergrad white women. In fact, the researcher (a black UGA student) admitted that he thought the results were vaild but slightly skewered because of the actual participants.
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I think that when we look at the idealized woman in the media we see what most men prefer. By and large, these women are more likely to be light with European features.
I also think that the idea of a line between light and dark is too arbitrary to be bothered with. As in most things when averaged, the experiences of people on either end of the spectrum pretty much form a gradation to fill out the middle.
Nice post, especially considering that spellcheckers dont consider “colorism” to be a word!
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Two more observations:
+Attitudes among black Americans about color come mostly from upbringing. Seriously. If you ever talk to any black person who has a color complex, nine times out of ten, they’ll reveal (directly or indirectly) that their feelings about color and being black comes from how they grew up. Many black folks don’t have any issues regarding color/ethnic appearance because of the way they were raised. If you have pride in being black, you don’t have those hangups. (And vice versa) Period.
+I believe that colorism, among AAs, also is mostly prevelant among many black women. The more color conscious blacks tend to be female. Perhaps, because looks factor in more heavily on women in our society than for men. If you are to a Google search on this subject among blacks (and trust me, there’s plenty of info out there), most of it pertains or is written by black women. This topic comes up quite a bit on different forums and guess who most of the commentators are?
If you say that 80%-90% of them appear to be black women, you’d be correct. It’s interesting.
Also, there’s not too much info on the net about colorism in the Latin America (which includes black people) and East & South Asian diasporas and it’s a much less fluid, more inherent concept in those parts of the globe than in black America. I wonder why it doesn’t get explored more?
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Thembi,
The media shows what men “prefer”? How do you figure? Do the various men in the media indicate what women prefer? Is every man, of any ethnicity, different enough to have their own individual taste? Or are they “all” the same? How can you be so sure?
Also, most black Americans, shade-wise, are medium-brown/dark brown, so the terms “light” and “dark” are extremely subjective and relative and everyone’s not going to have the same story because of that reality alone (and as I said, upbringing has much to do with how you feel about being black in this country).
“Colorism” is less about standards of beauty (that’s individual) and more about the idealogy of privilege (“white skin” is the perceived beacon of privilege and success) and the distance or proxomity of acheiving this idea. By “prefering” light, some people who feel that they were not granted these ideas of privilege by virtue of skin feel that they are getting closer to it. It’s all psychological and very complex.
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I agree that most colourism has roots in childhood and does not affect everyone. It makes sense it might affect women more.
But I think you can be proud to be black and yet still have mixed feelings about it.
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I am not saying that all black men prefer light-skinned women. I was careful to point that out in the post.
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Do most black men prefer light-skinned women?
I do not know of any surveys of what men like in women in terms of physical beauty, apart from those about waist-hip ratio and face symmetry. And I do not know how honest the men in such surveys would be. There is a certain political correctness – stuff you are supposed to say – on that subject.
The best proxy is the men’s magazines like Maxim, King, Smooth and Playboy. Unlike the fashion magazines, they have to know what their male readership like in women or lose out to their rivals. Men are not buying these magazines for the articles.
Based on that it seems that white men prefer blondes with thin bodies and big breasts, like Pamela Anderson. And for black men it is light-skinned women with long hair and a big behind: Esther Baxter, Melyssa Ford, Vida Guerra, etc.
This is not just what some editors think. Black Men magazine did start out that way – what the editors thought – but then they found their sales suffering. After trying many kinds of women, they found what sort of black woman does best in all parts of Black America – the Melyssa Ford sort:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/01/10/melyssa-ford/
That does not mean that there are not black men who like dark-skinned women or thin women or whatever. Of course there are. Nor is the standard of beauty the same everywhere either. What most black men like in New York is not necessarily what they like in Miami, etc.
More on Black Men magazine and its women:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/black-men-magazine/
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Right, it is not just skin colour by itself – hair and face matter too. The whiter-looking the better.
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Colourism does seem to be more ingrained in South Asia. My friends from there take it for granted and seem to think it is just part of human nature.
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Interesting point about mens magazines.
Consider this:
Angel Lola Luv, Buffie The Body, Esther Baxter have both won XXL’s “Eye Candy of The Year”.
Ki Toy Johnson won Vibe Magazine’s Video Vixen of The Year (beating out the aforementioned Guerra).
Bria Myles, is the #1 “hottie” on the heavily black-male-read hiphopdx.com.
All of these ladies are buxom, shapely women with huge asses who got their start in the hip hop modeling .
And they’re all far from “light skinned”.
Esther Baxter is “light skinned”??? See, how subjective those terms are?
Check this out: http://www.xxlmag.com/EyeCandy/
There’s enough variety among those women that one can’t say that a certain “preference” is being propogated. I’m just using that page as an example, not as a sole indicator.
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Yeah, the triple combo of skin/hair/features, all more European-leaning, can defintely alter perceptions.
Yet, most blacks who would be described as “light skinned”- which to me would be anyone who’s pale/depigmentated or tannish or beige-toned or yellow-tinted- have the same altered/diluted West and Central African features (which are diverse in themselves) and differing variations of kinky/curly hair that the remaning overwhelimg majority of blacks have. The “near white” types are a smallish minority.
So, how far would it go? I mean, with all of the “minority” groups in the U.S. Blacks would last in line in looking “close to white”. Lots of East Asians and many European-descented Latin American types would be the ones who look closest to whites phenotypically.
For perspective, here’s how the top black executives in the U.S. look:
The lightning is iffy but only two of those execs could be described as “light” and feature-wise, West Africa is defintely in the house! What do you think?
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And yes, standards of beauty are extremely fluid. That was the point I was trying to make in previous posts in this thread. I know many black and white men who pass on Melyssa Ford, I’d be one of them. In fact, most of the comments on the ‘net that I’ve read about her and some of the other video girls were mainly negative.
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I have done posts on many of those women and others. Here are the ten that were most visited over the past week:
1. Angel Lola Luv
2. Toccara Jones
3. Eva Pigford (Marcille)
4. Bria Myles
5. Melyssa Ford
6. Vilayna Lasalle
7. Condoleezza Rice
8. Gabrielle Union
9. Esther Baxter
10. Jill Marie Jones
I have not done one on Ki Toy Johnson yet, but she is next.
Toccara and Angel leave the rest in the dust.
You might think people have a purely political interest in Condi, but my political posts do not get that many hits!
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That is interesting about black executives.
I am not pushing a light skin determinism. It matters but I do not think it is the most important thing. If being black is a 100 in terms of how it affects your life, then being light skin or not would be a 10, somewhat higher for women. Something that can easily be overridden by things like charm, intelligence, beauty, drive, education, money and just plain luck. It seemed to have mattered way more in Jim Crow days.
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In response to comment #22 …you hit the nail right on the head. The issue of color with AAs is one that should be put in its proper context: something that shouldn’t be made too much out of yet something that shouldn’t be too easily dismissed either.
And all of the women in the top 10 most searched are FINE. Hell, Condi ain’t too bad herself. It’s that flip hairdo that gets in the way of her “sexiness”. LOL.
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That video was……..wild? Any who, it reminded me of what I heard yesterday in class with one of the vet students, telling someone they had “good hair”. I would say I was suprised but being that it’s quite common to hear, I’m not.
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It is amazing that people still say that kind of stuff with a straight face.
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I’m kind of interested in why you threw Liberia into the mix about counties where blacks prefer lighter skin. I’m Liberian, but I grew up in America so I’m mostly aware of the American viewpoint. Still, it threw me. I didn’t think skin color was a big deal in Liberia, at least among my family it’s not. Some of us are very dark, others very light.
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Yeah, half of my family is from Ghana and skin color never came up. Very rarely. If anything, darker tones were looked at favorably. But then again, “colorism” does not refer to “color preferences” but assigning different social positions and treatment upon folks based on shade/color of skin.
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I threw in Liberia because from what I read American blacks went back to Liberia in the 1800s and set themselves up as the ruling class. Since they were part white that made having light skin a value thing in society. But maybe it is not that way any more?
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Colourism isn’t a big deal in Liberian society. And although the Americo-Liberians set themselves up as a ruling class for the first hundred or so years that Liberia was a country,and some of them treated the native Liberians badly, it became less and less of an issue because the Americo-Liberians intermarried with the native Liberians. I’m a product of that actually. The real undercurrent issue in Liberia was tribalism, “Who’s from this tribe, who’s from that tribe?” And even that wasn’t the reason of the first coup in Liberia or the civil war. Apparently, when America aids a country it has a lot of hang ups about what the country can and can’t do, and the president at the time got fed up and started to open the doors for Russia, and Cuba, and Libya to come in. America doesn’t like that, this is during the cold war era, and the president is apparently killed by the CIA. Unfortunately no one foresaw that an illiterate soldier would try to take the place as ruler of the country and it all goes downhill from that. You can’t really find all this information in the news or in history books so I got it all from my mom, who witnessed these events. Sorry if it’s sketchy
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Wow, thanks. I removed Liberia from the post.
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funny thing is. “MELYSSA FORD” was the hottest thing smoking in 2004. plus if you saw how “LIGHT” she was. in her “ssx” tribute issue. you might “STEP IN THE NAME OF LOVE”
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This post has a euro-centric slant. Dark skinned Blacks don’t hate lighter skinned Blacks. (funny that you stated that opinion and didn’t consider the reverse) What you will find in SOME (not all) light skinned Blacks is an extreme disgust and self hatred of very dark people, especially women.
its seems that when ever a person speaks up against injustice the party that benefits from that inequity calls them “jealous, envious or a hater”. The pattern is clear. This is why White supremacy has worked for so many centuries, it was designed to function in societies and communities where there are few or no Whites.
White Supremacy has devastated our people for centuries and its a disgrace that Blacks adhere to and perpetuate this system. We do need to take responsibility for that fact. We didn’t give birth to these ideas but we do need to assassinate them.
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What I said was:
Some dark-skinned blacks think the light-skinned ones have an easier life and hate them for it – and yet wish they were more like them!
Notice the word “some” at the beginning. And notice that the hatred in this case is envy or resentment, not hatred for them as people.
Good point that colourism grew out of the white need to divide and conquer blacks. It makes sense.
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Well, Aba, other than a slavery-derived tactic to divide & conquer blacks, where else did you think of the concept of color-coding and colorism (in a western black context) came from?
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Everyone’s experiences are different. Yet, I don’t think there’s any true “hatred” with it comes to the color-coding that’s practiced among many blacks in the western world. As Aba says, there’s feelings of envy and resentment on the part of some. Maybe a sense of authenticity and/or superority on the part of others. But “hatred”? Too strong of a word.
Also, Aba, like many who cover this very complex and contradicitory topic (in it’s western black context), you neglect the mention the anti-light prejudices that leave as much of a powerful impression as the stereotypical anti-dark ones. I’ve heard the personal ancedotes of countless “light” black people who’ve had brushes with colorism and very few of these people have positive stories in regards to it.
“Light” black people are in the minority. So, that makes “them” a minority within a minority thus far more likely to encounter instances of their skin shade becoming political than your typical black person. Makes sense?
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All of this light skin vs. dark skin has seriously got to stop. It’s insane. Both are still black.
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medina & mynameismyname: Good point, this article leaves out that part, that colourism works both ways, not just against those who are dark-skinned.
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mynameismyname: colourism does not have to be something intended by slavemasters. It could have risen by the mere fact that slavemasters would tend to favour those slaves who were their blood relations: The whole house slave/field slave thing. (But how anyone could stand to see their own sons and daughters made into slaves is beyond me. What must whites think about blackness to be able to do that?)
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I think this post is innacurate. I am guessing it was written by a dark-skinned black woman that feels insecure. I often see this, “Black men like light skinned women better”, but as a black man, with many black man-friends, I have neither seen or heard this preference for light skinned women. I mean I have heard maybe one brother mention something about skin color, but besides that, never. I have also never known a dark skinned black woman, that was TRULY attractive (not just attractive in her own mind), that was passed up just for being dark skinned. Beautiful is beautiful, and I think that sometimes dark skinned black women who may not be considered beautiful use this whole “black men like light skin” myth as a reason for why they are overlooked. What is the unnattractive light skinned girl going to say? That she’s overlooked because she’s too light?
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I never thought of it that way, but, yes, most people who say “black men like light-skinned women” are black women.
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It’s funny, my mother used to get hit on (and still does) by WEALTHY men, black and white, ALL THE TIME. When I was younger, it would get so bad that I would often pose as her brother (I’m way taller than she).
My mother is hardly “light skinned”.
Neither are the great majority of black women I have ever known. Few of them have had problems with getting men. Now, they may not have always attracted or dated the RIGHT man but they had no problems fielding attention.
The women who say that men don’t like them because of a physical attribute are probably hung up and have a complex about that attribute themselves. i.e. “No one wants me because I’m fat!”. Those people have issues with their weight and they project onto others. And that turns people away. No one wants someone who doesn’t have much pride about themselves.
And I’m with Michael, it’s rare that I’ve heard any black guy or any guy for that matter state or demonstrate a shade preference when it came to women. Men don’t have that much leeway when it comes to women. And plus, we’re naturally less picky.
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There are a few black men who chase after light-skinned women, just like there are those who chase after white women (Sargent Willie Pete, anyone?). But by and large most are not like that. At least not in my experience.
In fact, I was on http://whodatedwho.com the other day and what struck me is how many of the black male celebrities dated women noticeably lighter than themselves. Like Jay-Z and John Legend. It seemed strange because the scale of it did not match anything in my experience.
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I really hate that I caught this post so late. I hope everyone is still reading it.
I am a dark skinned woman from the south and I will admit that I have had problems with how I believe men see my skin color. I consider myself an attractive woman and I have never had problems dating. I have even had heated discussions with my significant other (who is also dark skinned) about this subject.
I would have to agree with mynameismyname that this issue is something that shouldn’t be made too much out of yet something that shouldn’t be too easily dismissed either.
Having a complex about my color (how most AA’s explain it) causes me to approach the topic in a very emotional way and comments like #39 are basically telling women like me to ignore it and get over it. I understand that a healthy self esteem is very attractive so I will agree that any woman dealing with this particular issue should work towards maturing themselves by loving themselves.
However, when we as AA’s are faced with this issue in our daily lifes we should do are part to extiguish it by elimnating phrases like good hair to describe fine hair. We should carefully consider our actions not just for the bitter black woman, but for the beautiful black little girls who will be faced with the ignorance of their peers and the rejection of the mass media.
My fiance help me to understand that men are not to picky about who they date ( as long as it looks good). But I helped him to pay more attention to what defines beauty and how slavery has played a major part in what we say is beautiful, what is just attractive, and what is unattractive. I told him to imagine a fair skinned young woman that we know that he says is attractive. Then i told him to close his eyes and imagine her with dark skin. A distasteful frown appeared on his face.
The difference does exist, and unless you are a dark skinned black woman or someone who looks for it, you won’t see it. It doesn’t happen to you it happens to us.
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Good point: dark-skinned black women would be in the best position to know.
On the other hand, I do think some women see colourism where there is none because it has become how they look at the world.
For example, the other day I said I thought Alek Wek was ugly. One commenter immediately assumed it was because she was dark-skinned. But it was not that at all: it was her eyes.
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Moved here from a different thread.
“For the record, trust, there’s many white women who would want to fight you for dating a white man who they find desirable”
Actually, the statement should read: “there’s many WOMEN who would want to fight you for dating a MAN who they find desirable”. Women can get jealous, to put it lightly.
With black women I think the general feelings of jealousy get mixed up with race and amplified.
Have you seen “Something New”? There’s that seen where Sanaa runs into her ex (who’s white) at a wedding and he’s there with his white ex-girlfriend. She gets all pissed off and says, “I can’t believe he dumped me for a white woman!” and her friend points out, “Kenya, he IS WHITE. And you dumped him.”
I had to admit, that scene cracked me up because I’VE SO BEEN THERE. It is like a double slap in the face to be dumped for a white woman, even if the guy is white. It’s racist and irrational (after all, why should it matter?), but I can’t help it. And I think that most black women feel that way. And I don’t think it’s limited to black women.
A mixed-race (German/Pakistani) friend of mine got dumped by a white guy once. And she called me to complain. And she made the point that she was especially aggrieved because “and she’s BLOND!”
Okay. It’s colorism. It’s irrational. But there it is.
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Good thread! Interesting topic.
“Good point that colourism grew out of the white need to divide and conquer blacks. It makes sense.”
Definitely. I don’t know if it was conscious but it makes sense that white people would surround themselves with people who were “more like themselves”; they found them more trustworthy. And they were right. The house-slaves (especially the blood relatives) were usually the last people to defect and often stymied slave revolts. That’s one of the reasons that they were so hated by the field slaves; their loyalties were divided.
White people still do this today. It’s important that black people stick together and don’t let themselves be divided into color-groups like cattle. And for those mixed-race people who think they are white: I’m with Halle Berry on this one. You’re black. Get over it.
As a light-skinned, mixed-race person it exasperates me when dark-skinned black people say “You’re not really black.” Do they not realize that there is strength in numbers?
“But how anyone could stand to see their own sons and daughters made into slaves is beyond me.”
Some just didn’t see them as people but as property. They distanced themselves emotionally from them. And they made a point not to invest in them emotionally or economically. And remember that it wasn’t only the slave-master who was sleeping with black women but often his white employees or other white men from the area. So, he might have treated them preferentially to other blacks even though they were not his progeny.
Then there were the other white fathers who made the mistake of emotionally and financially investing in their children. That didn’t always turn out well. For one, some States started to experience more and more relation-emancipation and quickly passed laws that all free black people must leave the state. Also, free black people often lived more dangerous lives as being nobody’s property also meant being completely unprotected; they still weren’t considered people. Some white men left their black mistresses and children their estates after they died. They were often murdered by their jealous white relatives.
http://www.geocities.com/robbi01/wythe.html
Another one of Jefferson’s friends who freed his family was Thomas Bell (Mary Hemmings was his mistress).
http://www.buckinghamhemmings.com/
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Wow. Thanks for the links.
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Good post #43. Like Tyra Banks said on her show dedicated to darker skinned women, of all races, “It’s hard to see yourself as beautiful when society tells you your not”. Even Tyra has said in the fashion industry and in the media darker skin women (whether they be Black, Latino, Indian, etc..) are not as wanted as lighter skin counter parts.
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I commend Tyra for what she’s trying to do with her shows on colorism yet I feel that she’s playing into the noxious idea that being “dark skinned” (which last time I checked, the vast majority of black Americans & South Asians are) is a curse.
It’s that idealogy that drives the skin color bias that persists in the cultures of many people of color.
Color consciousness is a fascinating racial topic. Yet, it must be presented from a different angle.
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Also, for what it’s worth, unlike South Asians, East Asians, etc., it seems the black American ideal of female beauty is of a medium-complexion. Think about it.
I remember reading one thesis on the topic of African American colorism and even the writer reached that same conclusion.
For black Americans, there is a “too light” and a “too dark”, so it makes sense that medium brown black women would be the most celebrated.
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“Too light”: that is interesting.
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.
Since someone brought up the topic of ‘house
and ‘field’ slave — I just wanted to note
that — actually — this false concept
that so many people have — that the
lighter-complexioned chattel slaves
“had it easier” or “thought they were
better” than the darker-complexioned slaves
– and / or “relaxed in the big house” while
the darker-complexioned slaves “suffered in
the fields” — is very much like the infamous
‘Willie Lynch Letter’ Hoax) all VERY MUCH AN
URBAN MYTH (and is one which, in nearly every
way that’s possible, completely defies
the true historical recorded account.
The historical record shows that
those enslaved people who were of a
lighter-complexion (i.e. mulatto-lineage)
and that were found on the continental
United States during the antebellum
(chattel slavery) era were actually treated
MUCH, MUCH WORSE than were those enslaved
people who were of a darker-complexion.
In fact, record shows that most of the White
people (specially the White women) tended to
look upon the lighter-complexioned slaves
as being mere ‘mongrels of miscegenation’
(resulting largely from the rapes caused
by overseers); in their disgust at the sight
of these slaves — insisted that they be
“banished to the fields”; and also then
purposefully reserved most of the ‘big
house’ positions (ex. mammy, cook, driver,
etc) for the darker-complexioned slaves —
who most of the White people perceived as
being “more loyal, docile, less competitive”
— and, equally important, of a skin tone
which could never cause them to be mistaken
for ‘white’ or a possible member of
the plantation owners’ own family.
And this maltreatment was generally
even much more so the case if the
lighter-complexioned enslaved person
was ‘suspected’ (by a wife, sister or
daughter — who ran “the big house”,
while a ‘male’ family member ran “the
plantation”) of possibly being the
offspring of a plantation owner
(or his son, father or brother).
In addition, the few lighter-complexioned
enslaved people that were actually permitted
to do any work within the house were – as
punishment for having the lowly status of
“mongrel” and in order to make sure they
did not become “too uppity” — kept under
much more severe supervision (by both the
White women who ran the plantation household
and also by the darker-complexioned enslaved
people) and under much more severe work
detail than were most of the (more trusted)
darker-complexioned enslaved people.
Books by Deborah Gray White; Paula Giddings;
J. California Cooper; bell hooks’, etc.
expose the truth about the urban-myth and
show that the lighter slaves received NO
special treatment and were (as mere “mongrels
of miscegenation”) usually treated much
worse than were darker-complexioned slaves.
Hope this information is helpful
& that everyone has a great day. 😀
— AP (soaptalk@hotmail.com)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MGM-Mixed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FGM-Mixed
Related Links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/3331
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1399
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1570
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1573
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1402
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1400
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1747
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1691
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ag4UceOKYaro21HdnN8w.mgjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20071103085813AAolWV5
(see ‘best answer’)
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AtORF66bLNbNEjhIPDWC_6MjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20071031122504AArGj8B
(see ‘best answer’)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWIRLinc/message/17634
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWIRLinc/message/17622
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Just where did bell hooks bring this up? I thought she was of the opinion that whites back in slave days favoured lighter-skinned blacks so that blacks would hate each other and not get along – thereby making their own position as slaveowners safer.
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Its kinda funny when I went traveling round Africa and Asia one of the things I noticed was that black African women and Asain women tend to be on average lighter skinned then black African and Asain men. I wonder why its not the same 4 white people
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It sounds like the women are trying to keep their skin lighter on purpose, though in some countries men work outside more than women do.
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Greetings All!
Abagond, great post!! I love to hear opinions on this issue because I think it is so amazing how slavery still affects the way that we (black people) think. And the white man has the nerve to tell us to just get over it like the bondage has not affected and damaged our mentality.
I would like to say that I am a 21 year old woman with a medium brown complexion. I am a recent grad and I live in a metropolitan area filled with black professionals. Now that I have stated my credentials, I will go on with my comment.
Firstly, to the black men who say that they don’t have a preference for light-skinned women, this may be true for some of you but most black men do have that preference. (Something you prefer…NOT REQUIRE) I have a lot of “homeboys” who are like “hook me up with one of your friends”….”I like light skinned girls with long hair” …..”Being light-skinned gives a woman an automatic 2 point lead on a scale of 1 to 10″ …or my fav “She has to be at least lighter than me”. Sorry to say, but this is the majority. Its also apparent in the rap songs written by black men (for example, Lil Wayne’s new song I Like Her… i like a long hair thick red bone like my filet mignon….or something like that) I would love to be considered premium steak to my fellow black men.
Secondly, I don’t hate light skinned girls. However, I do envy the fact that they can wear almost any color eyeshadow and lipstick….but thats it. Most Darker skinned women don’t have a problem with their complexion, it seems to always be an outside source telling us that we are too dark. The epitome of beauty in the black community according to media is Beyonce/Halle Berry……These women are just white women with tans. What about Angel Lola Love or Megan Good or Gabrielle Union or Yaya (absolutely stunning)?
Lastly, I do believe the EXOTIC look is in, so darker skinned girls and black women mixed with korean, brazilian, and mexican are taking over media. Which just make black women want to go out and get the “body wave” weave. lol I had to leave off on a POSITIVE/ COMICAL note.
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^
Cool comment, Shana.
To expound on your mention of that Lil’ Wayne track (I also hate that line and ones just like it):
What about the Mystikal song, “Shake Ya Ass”, when he says “I like my women chocolate and bow legged”?
Or, the Del the Funkee Homosapien song “Dark Skinned Girls” (are better than light skinned)?
Or, the Mobb Deep track, “Trife Life” where Prodigy rhapodizes over a “brown skinned shorty” …and so many more examples.
What about the several rappers and R&B dudes who are married to typical-complexioned black women (like Lil’ Wayne was)?
Is it so cut and dry? I’m also around a black professional milieu, in the South at that. I don’t see the same general light-colored preference. Hair, maybe. Color, not so much.
Also, “exotic” is relative. It means something different to each person. And you can’t be mixed with Mexican or Brazilian? That’s a nationality, not an ethnicity/race. Are you mixed with American? LOL.
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.
It is high time that the world
came to know that the false idea
that the “house slaves’ were
of a light-skin coloring /
tone is a TOTAL URBAN MYTH.
Here is a link to a commentary
on that very same subject
http://www.transmyth.com/blog/?p=79&cpage=1#comment-171
.
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‘All this is an effect of white thinking on black people:’
excuse me?
whether your white, black, brown, yellow or green, what you think on what beautiful is, is your own fault.
if you don’t have a problem with other colours there should be no reason why the people you try to connect with to have a problem with your colour.
if you have a problem with the colour of your own skin, you can’t blame somebody else. you need to really soul search and find out for yourself that you are, indeed, in your own way beautiful.
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Agreed about the soul searching, but most people do not come up with these ideas out of the blue. They come from somewhere and for Black Americans that somewhere is White America. Just like the colourism in India comes from the Aryans who came from the north and took over India thousands of years ago.
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i sometimes wonder if its ingrained in light skins head the whole concept of being better.
as a biracial girl…or light skinned black if you want to go that route instead, i honestly didnt know about the color war between blacks til a few years ago.
i was getting my hair done, and the stylist who was very black told me how she was made fun of, and i never really understood it.
i didnt hang around black people. they didnt like me, cause i was so dorky and quiet, so i didnt know about the color war.
it was through tyra that i really found out about the light vs dark.
and i still dont understand it.
i remember at this one site, people said mulattoes are stuck up….mostly it came from people who thought it was wrong to say one is biracial or to claim it. i claim both being biracial and black.
but i started thinking about the tyra episode….when dark skinned people perceive light skin blacks to be snotty, and in return start to mistreat them, are they actually increasing the chance of causing the light skinned black to start feeling superior to the dark skinned out of spite and anger?
in the end, i to a white person, black is black. they are all hated the same….when i see a non-stereotypical black person on a tv show, i dont care what shade they are, im glad its a black person.
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Colorism is nothing but sad and a crying shame 😦
black is black…
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Colourism, or colorism, sometimes called shadism, is where light-skinned people are seen as more beautiful or just plain better than dark-skinned ones of the same race.
I don’t get this. I mean, I do, but I don’t think it works that way for white race.
While it is true for very dark skinned white people (who, in some parts of the world, are not even considered white), it isn’t true for all the white people. To be very, very light skinned, very white and pale is considered unattractive. Of course, it’s all about preferences, but generally, really white isn’t considered attractive- not anymore.
It’s like white women (and men, but especially women) are considered more attractive if they’re at least tanned, if they have at least a bit “dark”. While black women are considered more attractive if they are light skinned.
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I agree: whites do not seem to have it. I think that is because they have not been under the rule of a darker or lighter skinned people in at least 500 years. (Was there colourism in Spain under the Moors?)
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well, i’m a yellowish-brown skin black person with creole mixed background fro my mom side of the family. and i’m dam proud of my natural good dark brown hair. i only prefer my own skin toned or mostly high-yellow for a partner, or course with good looks & hair.
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Light skinned people may be considered more attractive also because their features tend to stand out more. All of the historical and fundamental facts are valid but I would like to also add this comment for consideration as well. A darker skinned person’s features are not as easily pronounced. That is what makes also a light skinned person more appealing. This is the only fact I focus on all of that other stuff in my mind and my personal world has changed with maturity; i.e. in highschool yes the above was quite accurate; now being over 35 I have experienced and realized more.
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@simpleedirect
i don’t know about that I know plenty of dark skinned people with defined or pronounced features soo…. yeah. I really don’t think it is a biological factor it’s really more of a social thing like racism.
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How did i miss this post? This was good, you should do a part 2. One thing I am interested in is why does it seem like the struggles of light skinned women are taken more seriously than dark skinned women? I can find a bunch of books/movies etc. about “light skinned” black women and their struggles for self-identity. The whole “too black for whites/too white for blacks,” etc. is very popularized in the media. But it is very difficult to find alot of media about dark skinned women and their struggles. I mean in depth stuff, not just brief discussion or mentioning it in short. I went searching for books and really I could only find “The Bluest Eye,” as the best book that goes deeply into the struggles of darker black women. Some darker women really do get discriminated against and I feel like its not taken seriously.
I also feel that dark skin/light skinned is relative. To some you will be light to others dark most of the time.
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Mira – you make a good point. A lot of whites view being truly “white” as actually ugly.
“Does the term tall, dark and handsome” ring a bell? This is an interesting subject and also the reason you see so many whites flocking to the beaches or pool for that awesome “tan”.
Considering the “colorism” factor, you will find (not in all cases) but many, that Blacks in the U.S. tend to avoid going to the pool and beaches to avoid becoming darker.
Ironically, in Brasil, this is not the case at all. Just go to Salvador, Bahia. All the surfers are Black! and – nobody cares about this “colorism” thing, people just want to go to the beach and have a good time!
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I love the water and I don’t really care about getting darker at all. As long as I’m cute, dark or light doesn’t make a difference, lol.
both the women below are beautiful.
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This whole thing is much ado about nothing. I’ve never seen colorism in personal experience.
I think that some people may fall back on that like a lot of other things because use as excuses.
That’s not to say that it doesn’t happen at all.
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The thing about colorism that is confusing me is that most light skinned black people when it comes to their features don’t look any different from dark skinned people. What I mean is that it is not uncommon to light skinned black people with broad features and woolly hair. It is goes in the opposite direction. It is not uncommon for dark skinned people to have fine featues. I think this is because many dark skinned and light skinned black people are apart of the same family. Because of what happened in slavery, with the slave master having sex with the slaves, black people are mixed. Meaning both dark skinned blacks and light skinned blacks have white ancestors. So it is not uncommon to see light skinned and dark skinned who look remarkably similar to one another in terms of feature, but they just have different skin complexions. It is assumed that lightskinned blacks have “good” hair and that dark skinned blacks have “bad” hair. But many of the light skinned blacks that I have met have extremely woolly hair and it is not uncommon for dark skinned blacks to have straighter hair. The fact that we are mixed has created a situation where black people have a mixture of different types of features and hair textures. I will you give an example. My lighter skinned father has a broad nose but my darker skinned mother has keen features. In fact, many people have assumed that my mother was of Ethiopian background because while she is dark her features are extremely keen. Her hair is also long. My father on the other hand has what people might call African features. He is just lighter. It is not uncommon for me to see people like this. For example, you can see a family of people who look exactly like one another except one person maybe lighter than the other. The features are the same however. My brother and I have different fathers. Both of our fathers are lighter skinned, but his father is lighter than mine. However, his father,despite being lighter, has hair that is woollier than my father’s hair. Because of this my brother’s hair is like steel wool while my hair is finer although his father is lighter than mine. So just because people are lighter doesn’t mean that their features are different from darker skinned people. Many African Americans are mutts. We come in all kinds of colors, features, and we have all kinds of hair textures. A person can have curly hair, a broad nose, thin lips, and brown skin. While another person can dark skin, a keen nose, kinky hair, and full lips. While another person can have light skinned, extremely woolly hair, full lips, and a keen nose. There are so many different looking African American people. That is one thing about African American people. No one can say that we all look alike. So the light skinned/dark skinned thing doesn’t make any since to me. You can find two black people who look identical to one another except that one person is light and the other person is dark. Now there are lightskinned blacks who have very keen features and straight hair, but that is not always the case. Do you guys see what I am talking about?
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I’ve never seen colorism in personal experience.
Yeah, a lot of white people don’t see racism, either, so I’m not surprised that a light-skinned woman (going on your avatar’s picture, there) might not see much colorism.
The more honest word for this syndrome, by the way, is “white supremacy”.
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What I meant to say is that it is not uncommon to see light skinned people with broad features and woolly hair.
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Thad,
Don’t compare me to a white person who is blind to racism. I am still black and am very in tuned to the enviornment around me and not above racism.
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Speaking of colourism, defining Black, defining White, defining one’s self can be more complex than one might think.
If the white girl in the photo below referred to herself as Black, would the American Black community accept her as Black? (without any knowledge that her parents are considered Black.)
http://www.snopes.com/photos/people/mixedtwins.asp
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islandgirl,
I didn’t know anything about colorism either until maybe two or three years ago. My family has a range of complexions, from deep brown to the palest of pale. Sure people would comment on my color or my sister’s, but it was never a big deal. None of us were ever treated differently based on skin color (or so I thought). I only found out about the extent of it when I went to the South and black people would comment on my complexion, often in conjunction with words like “beautiful,” or “pretty.” I was so confused as to what lighter skin had to with beauty; to me it was always about, you know… the face, not its color. Then a friend of mine explained that lighter-skinned people were favored, and that is why I was always getting compliments. I just thought they were weird in the South, until I started noticing it in other places as well. It was subtle, but there, this idea that lighter-skinned people were more beautiful or worthy of attention.
Incidentally, this was also around the same time I found out that all W. Africans were supposed to be dark-skinned. Also, from black people.
ColorofLuv, those babies are adorable. I wonder how they will look when they grow up.
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Natasha,
You comments about experiences in the South are quite interesting. I think this is generally the result of not having a historically “diverse” culture in the South. It was “over simplified” with the racist ideology of the time: You are either Black or you are White.
Wonder what would have happened to me way back in the day. I’m white, but have passed for Black (mixed) – & always in the South.
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Thad,
Don’t compare me to a white person who is blind to racism. I am still black and am very in tuned to the enviornment around me and not above racism.
Hey, you claim to not see colorism, which is pretty damned obvious.
What can I say?
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Natasha,
I agree with you! There may be many people who have not really experienced colorism or until recently. I’ve heard people always complain about it.
“Then a friend of mine explained that lighter-skinned people were favored, and that is why I was always getting compliments.”
Maybe you were getting compliments because you actually are pretty or beautiful and not just because you are light.
Colorofluv,
You’re pic is not too clear, but you have a darker tone than most white people. You have an interesting perspective because you are white, but if people perceive you as black/mixed, you might have experienced some form of racism.
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Thad,
Judging by your defensive tone, you’re SO must be darker complexed. It’s nothing to get offended about. It’s not pretty obvious to me. Colorism is doing what it is meant to do. Using perception to divide/conquer and to be used as a crutch.
There are several other commenters who said they or people they know have not really experienced it, so obviously I’m not the only one.
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Islandgirl,
I have many experiences rooted in racism, the color line, and not only in “Black & White”, but also ethnically, nationality, etc…
In Germany, it had nothing to with race, but instead being I was a “U.S. Soldier”. There, it didn’t matter if you were black or white, etc…
1. I was often times unable to get a cab
2. I was followed around in stores (thinking all soldiers are thieves)
3. Could not get into German clubs. (was told I had to become a member, yet there was no way to become one.)
Ironically, in the South I was referred to as a “Half-Breed” by Black cab driver in Alabama!!!
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Also, there are many darker women who do not see colorism. It has nothing to do with that.
Colorofluv,
Do you wish that you looked more traditional?
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islandgirl –
I don’t wish that I looked different. (at one time I did) I will tell you that I went through hell as a child. I was called all kinds of things, most notably “Brillo-Pad”. I can laugh about that now, but kids can be the cruelest people. I always wondered why I couldn’t style my hair like everybody else.
I finally developed a sense of pride and sported my fro with the “fade”. I rocked it!!! Sadly, I am almost 40 and the fro days are gone seeing as my hair is thin, so I keep it very closely cut.
I wish I could sport it again.
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colorofluv, believe it or not there are some black americans would accept her as black. i’ve said this before, but i had a relative who was white physically( he was 1/8 black, 7/8 white) he looked white period. But he always considered himself black and so did everyone else. except when he wanted to get into white establishments to benefit his family, then he would pass as white. Like wanting to get food from a nice restaurant that only served whites and wouldn’t even allow blacks to use the service entrance to pick up their food. he would pass white and get the food and eat it w/ his family.
I personally, am not that hardcore about ODR, it depends on things to me. The main reason I considered my relative to be black was because 1. he grew up being treated/considered black. 2. he considered himself black and mainly associated w/ others blacks. 3. he married another black. In this day and age, perhaps he would be considered by, perhaps not. so it depends.
There are enough blacks/mixed blacks who look white enough to pass for white,but don’t. These days they’ll usually just either do mixed or not do anything.
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I’m browned skinned…to some light. I consider myself brown and I see colorism. maybe its because i come from a family that is partially very color conscious. I don’t know but I’ve seen it myself. I’ve heard comments that were colorist with my own ears.
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Thanks for sharing Peanut. I would definitely say Elizabeth Atkins is white! (guess I would be wrong) Interesting story..
Just goes to show, we shouldn’t always judge a book by its cover.
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I can find a bunch of books/movies etc. about “light skinned” black women and their struggles for self-identity. The whole “too black for whites/too white for blacks,” etc. is very popularized in the media. But it is very difficult to find alot of media about dark skinned women and their struggles. I mean in depth stuff, not just brief discussion or mentioning it in short. I went searching for books and really I could only find “The Bluest Eye,” as the best book that goes deeply into the struggles of darker black women. Some darker women really do get discriminated against and I feel like its not taken seriously.
*****************************************
Peanut–I know you probably don’t need the list, but there are resources out there talking about the struggles of colorism from a darker perspective so to speak.
Some of the readings you may find interesting if you haven’t read them already:
Don’t Play in the Sun: One Woman’s Journey Through the Color Complex by Marita Golden. This is about a dark skinned woman navigating colorism. She has written other books on her experiences as well.
The Color Complex by Kathy Russell—it’s a modern nonfiction classic on Colorism in the Black community. This should give you a good idea of how endemic it is.
Our Kind of People, by Lawrence Otis Graham, talks about the Black elite through the century in which they were preoccupied by color and class.
The Blacker the Berry by Wallace Thurman
The Color Purple by Alice Walker
Color Struck by Zora Neele Hurston–a classic–and read anything by her
The Black notebooks by Toi Derricote—she speaks as a very light skinned black woman with “good hair” but she struggles with the issue of colorism and sees how it hurts others especially since her husband is very dark.
The movie Daughters of The Dust—by Julie Dash a Black woman director— and it is a beautiful movie and a classic.
School Daze by Spike Lee–again not specific to dark skinned black people telling their story–but Lee always is preoccupied by skin color.
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Judging by your defensive tone, you’re SO must be darker complexed.
About medium, I’d say. It’s my niece that I worry more about, to tell the truth.
It’s nothing to get offended about. It’s not pretty obvious to me. Colorism is doing what it is meant to do. Using perception to divide/conquer and to be used as a crutch.
Precisely as racism does in class terms in general.
There are several other commenters who said they or people they know have not really experienced it, so obviously I’m not the only one.
Yeah, I know. I also know a lot of white people who say they’ve never expienced racism, either.
It’s generally difficult to be aware of something when it works in your favor. It’s usually only when you get slapped in the face with it that you see it.
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My Color-ism radar must be way off, I have to admit half the time I can’t tell if a person is Hispanic, mixed, black or white.
Like these women
First women is Jewish/Black. I thought she was Italian or Hispanic.
Second women is White/Japanese again I thought she was Italian or Hispanic.
Also someone else mentioned this, but too white is a bad thing in America, if your very very pale it is looked at as unattractive. I think all races fall into this color-ism, white women have to tan and black women in many countries bleach there skin, it is all retarded in my opinion.
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ColorofLuv,
You comments about experiences in the South are quite interesting. I think this is generally the result of not having a historically “diverse” culture in the South. It was “over simplified” with the racist ideology of the time: You are either Black or you are White.
Yes, I think it might have something to do with that, and the history of the South in terms of slavery and its effects. I’ve had people put a brown paper bag up to my skin and say “You pass!”
islandgirl,
Maybe you were getting compliments because you actually are pretty or beautiful and not just because you are light.
I sure hope so!
Also, there are many darker women who do not see colorism. It has nothing to do with that.
My brother is relatively darker-skinned (think Kelly Rowland), the darkest of my family, and I think his skin tone actually worked to his advantage as far as getting the interest of women. Many of my female friends (black and non-black) would harp on his creamy, “chocolate” skin tone.
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thanks mayhue,although i really can’t stand spike Lee school daze. The rest of the stuff is good, how could i forget the color purple?
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“I’ve had people put a brown paper bag up to my skin and say “You pass!””
I’m skeptical about this. I think the “brown paper bag” story has always been an urban legend.
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Ó Dochartaigh – check out part of the thread on “Black Hair” to further confuse you.
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can’t stand spike Lee school daze.
**********************************
Peanut—
Yeah, Spike Lee does puts his issues about women in all of his movies. I do think he dislikes women and the fact that he is quite colorstruck. The only dark skinned woman that he has ever filmed with a certain degree of beauty and dignity was his sister.
Still he has produced racially concsious gems such as Do The Right Thing and Malcolm X. School Daze was not his best work but he exposed the foppery and elitism, tinged with colorism that existed in HBCU’s Frats and Sororities.
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Mayhue,
Wow, strong allegation there. Theresa Randle, star of Girl 6, was presented quite elegentally in the otherwise terrible Girl 6. There’s also Tyra Ferrell’s graceful performances in Jungle Fever and Crooklyn. Can’t forget Tracy Camilla Johns in She’s Got To Have It. Or Kyme in School Daze. I think Spike has a lot of love for black women.
….the recent intensity of the comments on this subject indicate that a certain post that’s been long-postponed should really appear soon….
*expects to be ignored*
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@ Abagond where is the solutions to colorism post?
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My guess is probably Saturday March 6th, though it might get pushed into next week. It is in the works, never fear.
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@Thad
It’s generally difficult to be aware of something when it works in your favor. It’s usually only when you get slapped in the face with it that you see it.
I do agree wit this. That’s why I said people generally notice/care only about the things that affect them or their group. That is a bad thing.
However, using common sense and a bit of historical/political knowledge is a must. I don’t think I even experienced sexism, and I was never discriminated based on my gender. It never happened to me. Still, I do know discrimination against women exist.
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i am a light brown- skinned black male . i am 50yrs. plus. it depends on where u live and who u r dealing with. Some very dark people has been treated betterm some real bright blacks, as light as some whites hate white people with a passion. every skin color have experience some form of discrimunation and will always experience. it is a matter of personal preferences.
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Lynette,
Sorry that you’ve had those experiences. I can relate. But the truth is, someone is always going to find something. I had extremely long hair in high school and females, like they say to you, said that I think I’m this or that. So I cut it all off chin lenghth. Then it was because I’m “light” or my weight.
But it is even worse when you are such a nice person. Women, especially, always project insecurites onto those they feel threatened by. And they are quite cruel in doing so. Experiencing this at work is horrible because it makes your enivornment toxic and very unpleasant.
They always say that men never mature. I think it applies moreso to women. It is very immature and school yard to treat someone unkindly for no reason.
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Lynette,
Sorry to hear about your experience. Once again, I believe this to be a predominant trait of the South although “colourism” exists everywhere. Good hair, Bad Hair, Dark skin, Light skin, “redbone”, etc….
As was stated earlier, this is defined by the society as a whole and is relative. What may be defined and seen as the “norm” in New Orleans may mean nothing at all in other states such as Alabama. (Mississippi too). While there are shared roots in culture, there are also differences.
When people in Brazil ask me about the United States, I often find myself talking about our differences rather than similarities: North/South, East Coast/West Coast, etc… (St. Louis, Miami, New Orleans, Los Angeles…)
My opinion: While “colourism” itself is a worldwide occurrence to some degree or other, it cannot be distinctly defined since the definition itself may vary based on one’s personal experiences in any given region, culture, family, language, etc… (It is relative)
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Mayhue,
Wow, strong allegation there. Theresa Randle, star of Girl 6, was presented quite elegentally in the otherwise terrible Girl 6. There’s also Tyra Ferrell’s graceful performances in Jungle Fever and Crooklyn. Can’t forget Tracy Camilla Johns in She’s Got To Have It. Or Kyme in School Daze. I think Spike has a lot of love for black women.
*****************************************
Agree. Girl 6 was just terrible. There was a level of desperation and that last scene when she met the White guy and he was shocked to see that she was Black and ignored her was telling. She’s gotta have it was ground breaking in that it showed Black people in relationships, however there was a difficult scene in which he cut her down to size.
Most women are cut down to size in his movies. Even Rosie Perez stated how difficult it was working with him and how he treated her during the filming of Do the Right Thing. I believe as a guy you may not notice his misogyny or his preference for Light-skinned women, but its there.
That doesn’t take away from 2 really good race conscious classics or his documentary on Katrina–which he kind of got back to the basics.
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I think the hair insecurity stems from the fact that extremely kinky, african type hair is not appreciated. I don’t think its solely the fault of the people. If kinkier hair was uplifted then people would be happy with their own texture of hair whether kinky, curly, straigt or some combination and they wouldn’t feel so insecure to the point that they need to insult/ degrade others with different hair textures. I used to be insecure about my hair, but I never insulted people with loosely coiled or curly hair, if anything I idolized their hair (which is another form of self-hatred) I loved the texture of my father’s hair in a narcisstic kind of way. I used to wish I had inherited his texture or that my kids would somehow get that gene that makes the hair straight and “flowy,” like Grandma and dad had.
I felt bad for not having it, but at the same time sortof proud. (it was pretty sick and confusing) I used to be a confused little black girl.
I even chose a white doll over a black doll when my grandma took me to Toys R US. I still have the doll, she’s blond and blue-eyed and I loved her. I still love her but not because she’s white, but because of the nostaligia of my childhood.
I even took my white doll with us when we went on vacation and toured a slave plantation. I was hugging this little, blond haired, blue-eyed doll to my chest while walking through the dirt path, surrounded by slave cabins and overseers cabins and the “Big House,” in the distance. My mother tried to get me to leave the doll in the car (which I couldn’t understand at the time) but I wouldn’t have it. I was a confused little black girl and probably still am to an extent to be honest…
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Peanut
I am just curious. Did your family emphasize to you that black hair is good hair and that black is beautiful when you were a child?
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Peanut,
I agree that kinky hair may not be accepted by some, but it IS the fault of the people. There is no reason for women to make someone else’s life miserable because of their insecurites.
I’ve seen people on some post discussing how white women are jealous of black women for various reasons. Whether that is or is not true, it is the same thing. It is not right for them to be jealous, just not it’s not right for black women to be jealous of each other.
There has been very few plans executed and enduring like that of Lynch. Apparently, judging from some people, he was very successful.
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Lynette,
I cannot believe (well actually I do) that people in a professional setting, particularly in a field such as yours, would behave like that. Those comments were VERY petty. Well, thankfully, you seem pretty happy were you are now.
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jeri, they tried. I think they tried. They tried to get me to take the black dolls, I would get some black dolls as xmas presents, but my favorite was my white doll. I had white barbies and only two black ones.
My mother wanted us to be proud of our black heritage, but at the same time she excessively praised my dad’s hair and didn’t really praise her own or hair that was closer to my texture. So it wasn’t like she deliberately set out ot make me hate my own hair, she just inadvertently contributed to issues w/ my own hair by doting on my dad’s type of hair or her friends making comments like “they were excited when my mom was going to have a girl because they wanted me to get my dad’s hair.” Things like that. She would plait my hair up and everything and she never criticised my hair, but I always felt like it was second-rate because it didn’t have the smoother, looser curl pattern my dad’s had. Both my grandmother’s had straight, long hair and I just didn’t understand why I didn’t.
They tried, they took us on trips and stuff. But how can you compete when one you don’t really appreciate your own physical attributes and two all you see constantly everday is that white is beautiful. As a little girl I always saw the pantene commercials, finesse and all you see is the silky, flowing hair look and every little girl wants to be considered beautiful, so ofcourse I didn’t like my hair. To top that off I went to a white school w/ only one other black girl and her hair was long. All my friends were white and I just remember wanting to have hair that hung down with the little polyanna ponytail and ribbons too. So I would take my hair out whenever my mom would plait it at school and I never understood why my hair just looked so different.
My moms side was fine with the skin color issue, but it was the hair thing. My dad was light and curly-haired like most of his family. I was sort of light with kinky-kinky hair and I stood out and I felt bad about that.
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I am kinda nervous about posting any pics online, but maybe when I get a chance I’ll email you a pic. of me when I was little and my you’ll see wat i mean. there are pictures of me w/ my hair looking a mess sitting with my little white friends because I would always try to take the hair out of plaits so it would hang down like my white friends, but it never would. So my hair would just be everywhere all over the picture. Then you see the picture of grandma, or pop and my dad and their hair would just lay down. I felt like the cursed one.
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islandgirl, in my experience most of the bp who I encountered within the “3a-3c type hair range,” gladly accepted the idolatry of their hair. They would not say anything necessarily bad about the 4a/4b type hair like mine. But it never got praised either.
Other little black girls usually loved the 3a/3cers hair and wished they had it and I never once heard any complaints from the people with the hair type nor did I ever hear anyone say “well your hair to nice too,” or anything. It goes both ways. I don’t accept the notion that one skin tone is prettier than another. I think they’re all equally beautiful and anyone who dotes on one skin tone at the expense of another, I always try to correct that. I don’t accept or allow that type of foolishness to go on around me as an adult. I don’t see why hair type should be any different.
You can’t expect a child to love their own hair when no one ever tells them their hair is beautiful or lovingly corrects them, some kids don’t know any better. Parents, grandparents should have corrected the kid when they dote on other people’s hair and exclude their own. Its fine to pay a compliment, but when that’s the only type of hair you see as “good,” and you idolize that hair…that’s a problem and people should learn to recognize that.
All that needed to be said was, “your hair is pretty too,” that’s all and it would have helped little girl’s self-image. Maybe its not one’s fault…
sometimes I wonder if some people are just too brainwashed to ever completely get over this type of thing.
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Peanut,
I see what you’re saying. Adults should be very careful with their praise because it effects a kid’s self esteem for years to come.
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I could probably write and essay or short story on my experiences w/ the hair thing to be honest. I have the pictures of me hugging my little doll and pictures of me with my white friends and their hair up in the ribbons hanging down and then mine just going everywhere because I took my mother’s plaits out and messed my hair up. Then my mom would have to do my hair again. Next time I’m at my home i’ll see if I can dig them up.
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Peanut
You know what, I am guilty of making insensitive comments. Some of the members of my family have curly hair while others have extremely woolly hair. I have said things like “His hair is beautiful” to the members of my family that had wavy hair while not commenting on the members of my family who had woolly hair. I am so glad you said what you said about comments we say to children because from now on I will make positive comments to all my family members. Thankyou for opening my eyes. I must admit when I was a child, I had a very positve attitude about my whoolly hair. But as I grew older, I would make comparisons to the members of my family and I began to have a more negative attitude about black hair. I also developed a negative attitude because while my hair is still long, it is much thinner than it used to be when I was in my late twenties. I guess I just started to blame this on my having black people’s hair. It’s ridiculous because I was black when I had extremely thick and long hair. I think my hair became thinner because I wasn’t taking care of my hair like I used to. Anyway, thanks for your comments because I will try to be more sensitive when it comes to the hair comments. Children are so vulnerable. If they keep hearing positive comments about only a specific group of people, they will begin to believe bad things about themselves. I will change my behavior.
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Peanut,
I’ve never been into the whole “bad hair”, “good hair” thing. If someone says something about good hair, I always tell them there is no such thing in terms of texture. As long as it looks healthy, that’s all that matters.
I had no idea that this notion effects people so. Also, I have always been VERY careful around kids and if I compliment one, I compliment all. That’s just common sense. How could someone compliment one kid and leave the other hanging?
I’m glad that you have worked out your hair issues.
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I think every Black woman has at least one significant issue with hair, whether it be good or bad. I really don’t know how to take it when people say I have “good” hair, especially since I definitely don’t fit the light-skinned, long hair stereotype. A part of me wonders if I’m supposed to be considered “lucky” to have good hair since I have “unlucky” dark skin–sometimes I feel people do a mental balancing of features, dividing features into good and bad: dark skin-bad, narrow nose-good, kinky hair-bad, etc. Now I’m stuck wondering whether people who compliment my hair are complimenting “good” hair–do they still like it when it’s not bone-straight?
Side note, I think it’s really unfortunate that Black people are perpetuating this good hair/bad hair mess. My boyfriend is just the most recent example, but he likes Afros, the bald look, kinky curly styles, etc., and he’s not Black–why do we feel like we have to compete with one another?
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Mayhue,
You’re the first I’ve met who accused Spike Lee of creating sexist images in his films. I’ve heard that allegation towards John Singleton but not Spike. I’ll look into that.
Lynette and Islandgirl,
Envy is a MF’er. I really respect you ladies because you don’t seem to pride yourselves on your looks. I didn’t get the air of “They hated me because I was beautiful” when you recounted your unpleasant experiences related to your appearance.
Jeri,
I respect your honesty. See, this is what I hope we can explore in the “solutions” post. Finding a resolution to this social posion.
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The colorism thread has been taken over by the hair thread and vice versa! lol….
If it is any consolation, I feel the U.S. as a whole, black & white have made great strides in changing concepts on beauty, largely in part due to the ever increasing diversity of the modeling world. You see a lot more hair styles now sporting the different types of natural curls from 4a, 3, etc…
Sadly, Brazil and much of Latin America is playing catch up. (In my opinion) Most brazilians have the concept that straight hair is pretty hair never understanding the roots of this ideology. Regardless of origin, it is a big part of Latin culture.
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You’re the first I’ve met who accused Spike Lee of creating sexist images in his films. I’ve heard that allegation towards John Singleton but not Spike. I’ll look into that.
************************
The meme has been around for a awhile. This short article is a good start. http://www.theroot.com/views/spikes-woman-problem?page=0,2
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mynameismyname
Yes, we should talk more about solutions to the color problem. We should also talk about solutions to the marriage problem. It is good that we have discussed that there is a problem. That is the first step. But yes, you are right. Now we need to talk about what we can do to combat the problems so the next generations won’t have to go through what we go through. I hate the idea of problems existing on and on, for years. Believe it or not people have discussed these issues for 60, 50, 40 years. There have been books written about it. Spike Lee did a movie about it close to 25 years ago. Now we need to honestly discuss how we can change the situation and then once we have agreed on what to do, we should do it, not just give lip service. Each person has to personally examine him/her self. We have to examine our hearts, our minds and our behavior. Then we need to fight our self destructive tendencies with all we have within us.
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My heart goes out to all the women here who have ever had any issues or doubts or feedback from the outside world that would ever make you question your natrual beauty and how you look.
We are all under such pshyc from the cosmetic companies and media standards of beauty to always question how we look and to be critical of it.Add to that cliquism , hiarcial issues and just plain old human nature to devide and make others outsiders, and, its very hard to really look in the mirror and see the beauty that is really there
Ive said before, I love all looks and colors and style of hair and shapes that black women have. And I think many men and people in general see black women as beautiful against the grain of what they say we are suposed to beleive.At least I can say without a doubt I do
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do u guys think this b-movie actress from the 1940s looks like she was a passing light-skinned black?
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peanut
That is a good question, I cant give you an answer because , after 24 years in Brazil, my mixture concept has been greatly expanded . Meaning , I see so much more variations from the darkest of the dark, to the lightest of the light mixtures, with lots of Indian mixed in, and the extremes of dark with curly hair, and thick lips (and thin lips) to dark with thin lips (and thick lips) and straight hair (I think Natasha mentioned something like this) to light with curly hair and thick lips (and thin lips) to light with straight hair and thin lips (and thick lips). Granted, hair products have to do with some of the types of hair and colorings.
Sure , she could be mixed, but, with some Indian in there also and white.
One thing I have learned from my wife, woman should be able to be who they are and deal with how they look , to feel good about themselves. That is the most important thing, so that what ever you do, you do it to feel good about yourself (and I think someonw mentioned that here).
Id make her wear her hair long and natural for as long as I could, but, eventualy she wanted to straighten it. But, I absolutly love when the curl starts to creep back in, just when she thinks she needs to go have it treated again.
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And, beleive me , I love her straight hair look , too, so I get the best of both worlds.
Lynnette , from your picture,I really could never understand why someone would make you feel bad about the way you look in any way.I could only chalk it up to envie.
The pictures of the women on this blog ( I hope there arnt some men in any of these pictures sending in false pictures pretending to be women , it does happen) are of very beautiful women.Even more reason to wish you all never had to go through these experiances you all describe.
It does take some time to get comfortable with who we are physicaly, amazingly it sometimes happens as we even start aging, but we do start accepting and loving the way we look.
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“I hope there arnt some men in any of these pictures sending in false pictures pretending to be women , it does happen” just want to clarify that I hope there are no men posting on here but sending in a picture of a women.
It is the internet and Ive seen strange things on sites, like white guys pretending to be black
I actualy dont beleive any one is faking it here, the posts all seem to be true to the heart.
And I think there are a lot of healthy out looks displayed by the women on here.
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to be honest the woman reminded me a bit of Lena Horne w/ a close look at her face.
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I have to confess,I made that crack about hoping males arnt pretending to post as females because I wanted to hide that I am “gushing” too much (“oh all the fotos of the girls here are so beautiful”)…but you ladies are bringing out that gushing , I just feel like I want to comunicate with you all.
My pleasure ,Lynette, its from the heart.
Yeah ,peanut, a little like Lena. I think I see a little indian in her eyes, which,by the way ,is a large factor sometimes in the differant texture in black American womens hair and complexions from woman to woman (and men).
Peanut, I have to tell you your story with your doll was very touching, and, I want to say, I dont get that you had any white fixation at all with your doll. Only you can know inside, but, it reminds me how precious my 12 inch action figure of Willie Mays was to me when I was young. I would have had it now if I didnt move around so much and had to leave momentos behind. But, a couple of my brothers kept their momentos and have their action figures of Hank Aaron and other black baseball players, and they are very diffferant from me in that they didnt go playing bongos and listen to African music, Brazilian music, Jazz and Cuban music and James Brown like I did at 8.
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Talking about colourism cant help me look at my in house best example, my son.
I have to admit , I am happy I didnt raise him in the USA to have been subjected to being classified every which way but up.
His hair is bushy with no curl, his mom has natural curl. He has thin lips but a nose kind of like his mother ,which he describes as like those turtle chocolates (talking about his mother).
He has Indian eyes, especialy when he is angry, and when he gets sun, his skin really gets dark brown.
He could pass for a lot of things, dark Italian, Indian, middle eastarn, from India….He probably would be rejected by racist whites or black American culture.He probably would have had a hard time fitting in.
But if you see a picture with his mothers extremly large family, he looks like he fits in with a black family that runs the gamet in skin color and hair texture from dark skin to light skin and curly hair to straight hair.
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Thanks myname and BR for the input. It’s good to get things from a male perspective.
Yeah, you’re son is a cameleon. That’s a good thing.
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BR,
lol. I was born female (at least that’s what’s on my birth certificate) and I’m pretty sure the others were too.:)
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B.R. – sounds a lot like my wife’s family from Salvador. As I’ve said before, going to family get togethers, you don’t know where white starts and black stops or vice versa. The color line is blurred.
I really wish people would get the chance to experience other cultures and societies outside their own. It is the best educative experience I’ve ever had -Something you can’t get from books.
Sounds like you have a great family. (by the way, you say you are not in Bahia anymore? Was it Rio now? I spent part of my youth in Niteroi, but my wife is from Salvador.)
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Color of Luv & B.R.:
Just curious – you do not have to answer if you do not want to – but how did you two discover my blog? Correct me if I am wrong, but there are now three white American male commenters (you two and Thad) who are married to Brazilian women of noticeable melanin whereas three months ago I had none, at least none who commented.
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Happy to answer , abagond. I was seaching google for subjects related to Brazil, I came across something relateted to “Imperial privaleged tourists from the empire” which those kind of catch phrases always gets my dober up, and it was by Thad’s esteemed wife on his blog “O Mangue” (see folks, I have had to put up with him before I got here, and he does write about Brazil subjects….and I just like to beat up on him), and he had a referance to your blog about a subject that interested me. I am glad I came over. I really like the subjects and am impressed with all the intelligent women on here and there points of veiw.
Ha ha islandgirl (which island is it, Manhattan, Statton, the Caribean?) as I confessed above, I clumsily used that about male posters could be faking it ,to hide the fact that I am obviously gushing about how beautiful you all ,with your pictures up , are (all of you). I am impressed. And lots of intelligent posts also from you all.
Colorofluv, I lived in Rio 7 years, Recife one year, visited Salvador about 8 times (business and inlaws) and live in a place that if you would excuse me, for now, I would rather not reveal, since someone is always ready to use innocent information against you.I have revealed more of who I am on this blog ,I think because abagond has a good politness policy and the posters here and the subjects are rather inspiring me to reveal more about myself.
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Colorofluv, it is in Brazil
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Jeezis. And here I am posting in the clear.
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Also, I’m naturalized Brazilian. 🙂
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abagond –
I found you by googling variations on race, black and white blog, etc… I stayed because of the many diverse topics and a personal interest. I chose to participate because I felt I could add value based on my personal experience. I have always been interested and disturbed by “race” in America. Although I am white, I have challenged peoples perceptions on race and ethnicity by virtue of simply being “me”.
At an early age, I lived in Brazil although I am not Brazilian. This is why I am fluent in Brazilian Portuguese. Living in a country like Brazil where the color line is not clear is a lot different than living in America. While segregation no longer exists, its almost as if society perpetuates the ‘color line’, which I find appalling. I grew up learning that this was not right. My father grew up in the Bible belt and challenged this. A Black author was somewhat of a mentor to him and most likely influenced my father for life. (I have a signed copy of his book to my father and will try to locate the title.) It will take a while to find as I relocated to Miami recently and the book is back in St. Louis, MO.
I could go on about my family, my history, my parents history. Suffice it to say that I am intrigued by these topics, they do affect me, my country, my friends, family and society: And I care about all of these things. I care about the world I live in.
This forum is a great place for debate, for learning, for “sharing personal” experiences, regardless if they are Black or White. I think we find that we all share the “Human Experience”.
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I’m going to be completely honest and say that this thread rubbed me the wrong way alot of victim blaming going on here and not enough solutions or taken account of the realization of why others react to you based off of your physical appearance.
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Thanks for sharing Dani…
Would you have any thoughts on possible solutions to share?
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BR,
Manhattan!lol A lot of blogs commenters just discuss a topic in general terms. But it is interesting when so many people here share their personal experiences because it provides so much more insight to the topic.
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islandgirl…all right that is the right island, Manhattan, and you being from Chicago makes us have similar tragectories.
colormeluv, interesting story, so you live in Miami now? I like Miami, I love what the Cubans have brought there, yet , its amazing to read people in Miami Herald chat sections that hate them…just boggles the mind.
Dani, not sure what you meant, but if you mean these girls suffered at the hands of some petty thinking, I agree with that.
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B.R. –
Oh yeah… I could write a book about my experiences (maybe I will – lol)
Miami is more my speed and vibe. Its “kind of” like haveing the best of both worlds: Brazil and the U.S. Down here I use Spanish, Portuguese and English on a daily basis.
MidWest Separatist Sidenote: I was participating in a retreat being ran by the (get this) MULTI-CULTURAL Center. I replied in spanish to a Mexican-American man about a topic he was talking about with a fellow student in spanish: He turned to me and said, “Don’t talk to me in Spanish. You’re not Hispanic. You talk to me in English”. (in the most hateful overtone) LOL !!!
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colorofluv, strange, that guy would react like that.
The last time I went to the USA, I hit Miami, Santa FE and Los Angeles, and , I always knew Spanish was big in those places, but it was really big this last time i went. Its at almost every step of the way you go, from hotel to hotel and the people that work at the airline desks etc
Multi Cultural center? Get me a gig man, my wife is a top leval Afro Brazilian dancer and a two time World Music Billboard charting artist…ahhhhhhh just kidding about getting the gig, we would like to hit in Miami (I did battle with places like Miami Dohpin mall, Brazilian restaurants, some shopping centers etc it was hard for now),
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B.R. – think you may have had the “spanish comment” confused from my earlier days at Illinois State in the Midwest while I was working with/participating in the Multi-Cultural Center on campus.
As for gigs, sounds like you don’t need any help with your “famous” wife. Always nice to have connections though!!! (Being friends with the manager of ChicaFe has been cool.) Ironically, a few years ago, he was wondering if I could help get them some exposure in the Miami Latin music scene.
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Well there are alot of people talking about personal experiences and not solutions. We already know it exists but what can we do to dismantle this toxic logic:
Well here’s my list
1. You have to get over your guilt and denial about the issue. That means stop derailing and being dismissive of other people’s experiences.
2. Keep around positive images. That means from when the child is born have a postive images of that child. When I was a kid, I had postive images of alot of Black Art from photographs to literature. It’s important because society does not give a crap about your child especially if the child is of color. You have to instill those values yourself. Check this out I knew a lady who did not teach her daughter about “Light is right” but her child still carried that mentality. I told her that she needs to have a talk with her child because I overheard making disparaging remarks about dark skin. It’s that simple. When my little sister was in kindergarten, she came home boasting about how she is light skin. My mother and I never taught her that. So if you teach your kids early on to accept theirselves with positivity (not in vain and superiority) your child is going to be better off. My family has never played favoritism based on color. My relatives are extremely light skin to extremely dark skin. I was always told my skin color is beautiful. So I never had that problem. Not even just with family but outside of family.
3.If you are struggling with the colorism issue, its best to seek couseling to help you overcome your issue. It’s not healthy for anyone to walk around with self-defeatism and lack of self-esteem or efficacy. It’s going to be hard for others to admit but that is the first stage. Dismantling denial and guilt.
4. When we discuss colorism we should listen and become empathetic. I’ve seen discussion of colorism go so horribly. I’ve heard too many people trivialize others stories and do too much victim blaming. That does nothing but heightens the problem. If others treated your horribly in the past due discrimination based on color, do not interenalize that and become resentful. That also goes to the ones that benefit from the divisive logic.
5. Embrace diversity. There is nothing wrong with others who look different than you. I have never disliked a light skin woman because of the stereotype of light skin women being elitist. However, I have never disliked dark skin women neither for the stereotype of being “mean-spirited”. I have Black women friends of all shades and we do discuss colorism very progressively and how it has shaped our world view. That’s how it should because this logic is not going away any time soon unless we become more proactive and challegenging it.
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dani, we’re saving the solutions for the “solutions to colorism” post!
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hahahah okay natasha W. my bad I forgot Abagond was doing a post on that
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Yeah, Dani, you’re trying to steal us thunder!!! LOL. I’m kidding. Your solutions are potent. I think it’s wonderful that you and your friends discuss matters of race and how they’ve shaped your worldview.
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I like your Proactive approach Dani !!! I think that is part of the solution too – being proactive. lol
I’ll save the rest of my thoughts on “solutions” for the post.
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dani et al:
There is a solutions to colourism post coming out in a few days, so please wait till then.
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yes, dani, great ideas, and, I didnt really get that any of the other posters were hung up on their experiances or victom blaming ( I might have missed some earliar posts, excuse me if I have).
I think everyone has got something to share and listen to.
I know Im all ears for experiances and feelings about this, my son will face the reality of this as he goes.I have a responsibility to try to understand this.
Island girl is right, he has to be a chameleon.
Im all ears and I also want to say to all the women with any dealing with these issues of beauty and acceptance: There are men everywhere who really do see you for the beauty you are. They arnt stuck in stereotypes of what people think men like.Amd there are others who are stuck in pettyness.
And , I guess the deepest message , like what I think you related to , Dani, people have to love who they are first.
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colourism encompasses more than just color to me. To me Halle Berry is not light-skinned. I don’t get why people consider her “light-skinned.” I’ve learned that light-skinned seems to mean “mixed-race.” I think there is more than just skin-tone that goes into the colorism thing.
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@Leaveumthinking
There are bi-racial people who are not as accepted because they’re not “Black enough”. Either way it goes, its stupid.
I agree picking on someone for being biracial or not “black enough” is stupid too and that should be addressed also.
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I agree. If someone is minding their own business and not putting down others or thinking of themselves as superior, their race, skin color, hair are anything should not be an issue.
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These things should not be an issue, but unfortunately they are.
Whether it is colorism, being bi-racial, mono-racial, many of these concepts are derived from White society – as has been demonstrated by the “doll experiment”. How do we break down these ideas?
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Y (from the Suggestions post),
Despite the brazen nature of that biracial woman’s comments I must admit I have heard this in tamer form in person. Whenever a black woman is consider pretty the follow up question is, “what are you mixed with”.
Yes, I find this insulting. The implication being that a black person can only be attractive if they have non-black admixture. I’ve gotten this question before, and I’m 100 percent sure I’m as close to 100 percent black African as anyone can get. I know my origins, and there is no white or anything else in my family.
But the worst part is that I see mainly blacks perpetuating this idea. Self-hate is rampant and it is arguably the worst result of white supremacy and racism. Don’t black people realize that their almond-shaped eyes, smooth skin, and high cheekbones come from their West African ancestry?
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ITA, I get that a lot in London as well, from biracials as well as West African women that if you have long hair and ‘lighter’ skin then there must be some admixture. Truly sad, there are so many pure blooded Africans like myself without any ‘foreign’ blood.
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It does start with the children. I grew up in 70s and 80s and my mother instilled in me (and my grandmother in her) pride for our blackness not only our history but our looks. We never denigrated lighter skin folk (my dad was light) but I certainly learned the “blacker the berry the sweeter the juice.” and to love my cocoa colored skin, my brown eyes, and my woolly hair too.
And let me tell you, past 35 dark skin is a blessing because it doesn’t wrinkle until you’re well into the 60s. I have envy from whites for how youthful I look and having a pretty, year around tan. I love it!
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I find it insulting too. One time I was on a blog where people were saying that there was no such a thing as a beautiful black woman. I gave a list of beautiful black women keep in mind the only biracial was Stacey Dash (I didnt know she was biracial at the time). The rest were black women with two black parents. Did you know they said none of them counted because they HAD to have had white blood in them to be pretty. I know that beauty is subjective but that sounds a little racist to me.
But the worst part is that I see mainly blacks perpetuating this idea
Yes sadly too many blacks have fallen for the okie doke.
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I envy you , poetess….for sure, the white male if he isnt fat starts getting turky gobler neck after a certain point…
i could get plastick surgery and lipo and be fabulous!!!
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@ Natasha W
Fortunately for me I have never been called “pretty for dark/black girl” but I know it happens a lot.
I have had people say I have “good hair” and ask if I had Indian ancestry. I am quick to tell them Im 100% black African and there is no such thing as “good hair”.
Its tragic that “attractive” traits are associated with being non-black.
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Leaveumthinking.
Internalized oppression is a b* isn’t it? I hear that thinking constantly that only blacks with “mixture” are pretty. Whatever, I am not insulted by this. Saddened perhaps. I have even had people insist that I am “mixed” with something because I’m dark and pretty so they say. Ignorance in this instance knows no bounds.
Btw I hope Lauren Hill was on your list. She is undeniably one of the most beautiful dark women I have ever seen in the media.
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@ B.R.
Responding to what you said regarding your son about “not being accepted by anyone” over on the Suggestions Thread. I’m just responding here since it seems more appropriate.
I’m only asking if you want to share, but since it is such a private matter, I leave that to you. I hope to understand that statement better. Are you talking U.S, Brazil, or both?
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Natasha and MerriMay,
People question my ethnicity, though I am fully black. The funny thing is, that most biracial people that I know or see look fully black, to me.
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Y,
Cosign on the “good hair” thing. If all of these Black (2 Black parents) women have “good hair” then isn’t black hair “good hair”? It’s so patronizing to assume that anything “good” on a person must be non-Black–it especially makes me uncomfortable when Black people say it. Come to think of it–I’ve never heard a White person use that term.
Islandgirl,
I swear you look like someone I know/knew, so I’m betting I’ve seen your face in a magazine ad somewhere. 🙂
I’m always the last to know when someone is biracial, because I don’t think light skin = biracial. Unless someone brought it up, I’d just assume the person was Black.
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@islandgirl,
You’re right to some extent. The typical American biracial probably looks pretty similar to you.
I have clearly made too many controversial statements about mixed race identity and given too much praise to mixed beauties on this site. Hence, I’m going to take a hiatus on this topic.
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I have clearly made too many controversial statements about mixed race identity and given too much praise to mixed beauties on this site. Hence, I’m going to take a hiatus on this topic.
Yes you have glad you noticed.
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Im referring to your “black elite” statements and your not making people cross the street statements because of the way you look.
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Btw I hope Lauren Hill was on your list. She is undeniably one of the most beautiful dark women I have ever seen in the media.
I dont remember for sure if Lauren Hill was on that one. But I have put her on many list because I think she is strikingly beautiful. Recently I have brought her up to a few black male friends in random conversations and sad to say they said they didnt find her attractive. But to each his own.
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“Im referring to your “black elite” statements and your not making people cross the street statements because of the way you look.”
Well I believe Abagond did a post about street-crossing even before I started commenting here. I was just making a reasonable observation about how phenotype plays can potentially play a major role in how people interact with each other.
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Jasmin,
We live in the same state, so you never know… You haven’t seen me in a magazine ad (that I know of)lol. Thank you though!:)
The only white person I’ve heard use the term “good hair” are white women around here who date exclusively black and are so engrossed in the “black” culture (which is really the country/ghetto, drug selling, ect.) that they think they are black. They have the “accent” and slang down. They get their “hair did”, no joke I heard a white woman say that the other day and always have a black friend available to hook up their cornrows.
When they use the term “good hair”, they are normally talking about their own kids.
Other whites – no, I’ve never heard them use that term.
FG,
I’m not familiar with your posts, but I hope you don’t share the same thoughts as the commenter discussed in the suggestions post. If they are, I don’t know if I should take your comment about most mixed raced people looking like me as an insult because with that way of thinking, looking fully black is not good.lol And, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with appreciating mixed race beauties. The problem that most of us have is when people start believing that they are superior in any way.
I was always taught that monoracial black is no more or less beautiful than any other. But if you are fully black and considered beautiful, or pretty or intelligent or any positive adjective – then you must be.
Also, the actress Rachel True is on my Facebook. I asked her if she felt like she had an advantage with auditioning because she is mixed race. She was very humble and gracious in her response. She said –
No, because when I walk into that casting room I am still mocha, duh! lol
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“I’m not familiar with your posts, but I hope you don’t share the same thoughts as the commenter discussed in the suggestions post. If they are, I don’t know if I should take your comment about most mixed raced people looking like me as an insult because with that way of thinking, looking fully black is not good.”
I haven’t seem those posts, but I don’t believe in any type of mixed race superiority.
I think a big problem is that any discussion of mixed race identity, beauty, distinctiveness, etc. is automatically regarded as “colorism” by some. That’s because many people subscribe to the One Drop Rule and regard all mixed people, irrespective of their family background or what they look like, as being as black as anyone else. Thus, making any sort of distinction is viewed as bigoted. This of course ignores the fact that in modern America, being mixed race is oftentimes very sociologically relevant, shaping how people relate to you on a daily basis.
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“Also, the actress Rachel True is on my Facebook. I asked her if she felt like she had an advantage with auditioning because she is mixed race. She was very humble and gracious in her response. She said –
No, because when I walk into that casting room I am still mocha, duh! lol”
Many mixed race people, perhaps most, have the typical African American experience. True is right that what people see when they look at you has a big influence on how they regard you.
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@Islandgirl & Jasmin…
I grew up with what I call the Irish Fro… Kids teased me all the time.
What’s wrong with your hair? How come your hair doesn’t get wet? You’re a freak. You got a brillo pad on your head….
I remember wanting good hair (so, I’ve heard I’ve heard the term and used it)… Somewhere along the line, the perm came into style, and suddenly I realized people “wanted my hair”…. then I started hearing: You’re so lucky to have naturally curly hair, Its so thick…..
Speaking of Colourism with White people: My opinion is they want hair with texture, hair with curls (as long as its not too nappy!!!) People should just be proud no mattter what.
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leaveumthinking,
I find it insulting too. One time I was on a blog where people were saying that there was no such a thing as a beautiful black woman. I gave a list of beautiful black women keep in mind the only biracial was Stacey Dash (I didnt know she was biracial at the time).
Is she biracial? I’ve read that she has some Native American/Aztec, but I’m not sure if either of her parents are not black. She, Darien, and Damon Dash look monoracial to me. I get a little iffy with celebrities because so many claim non-black ancestry or other people try to claim that for them to make them seem “exotic.”
The rest were black women with two black parents. Did you know they said none of them counted because they HAD to have had white blood in them to be pretty. I know that beauty is subjective but that sounds a little racist to me.
Yes, so many people seem to think Tyra Banks is biracial/multiracial? I go to forums and they say that she is mixed, so she doesn’t “count.” Last time I checked, both of her parents were black. And she looks like the average black woman to, just with Hollywood fixings.
Jasmin,
Cosign on the “good hair” thing. If all of these Black (2 Black parents) women have “good hair” then isn’t black hair “good hair”? It’s so patronizing to assume that anything “good” on a person must be non-Black–it especially makes me uncomfortable when Black people say it. Come to think of it–I’ve never heard a White person use that term.
I never heard a white person use the term until Chris Rock’s “Good Hair” came out. Now I have people asking me about the “hair issues” within the “black community.” *rolls eyes*
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FG,
The thing (many) biracial people never talk about is that Whites are the ones who came up with the ODR, and Blacks were the ones who accepted these people who were oftentimes rejected by their own family members. So it’s suspect to me that few biracials (who are vocal about the ODR) direct their antagonism toward the White side–why are people fighting for acceptance on the side that doesn’t want them?
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Natasha,
I was never a fan of Meagan Good, but I had to give her the side eye when she said her great-grandpa or somebody was from the West Indies, so that made her “like, Creole or something”.
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On the Wendy Williams asked Stacey Dash if she was mixed she said yes her father is black her mother is Mexican.
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I took it that her mom was a non black latina or mulattoe.
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leaveum,
Okay. As long as she herself said it.
Jasmin,
I was rolling my eyes at that one too. She listed so many ethnicities in there; give me a break. Meagan… in other words, you are black.
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To the people who have never heard White people use the term “Good Hair”. (Am I the only exception to the rule?)
Timeline here. I’m 40 and when my mother (white- red hair-Irish-couldn’t even catch a tan) was growing up in a rural environment, she used to straighten her hair with using permanent solution, and brushing it/flattening it out. (not sure how she did this.)
When I used to tell her about all the kids making fun of me, she used to tell me she wanted “good hair” too when she was younger, but that I should be proud of my curly hair because it makes me different!
so yes…….
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Heres the Stacey Dash video she says it at 5:05
http://perfectworld8.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/video-world-stacey-dash-does-wendy-williams/
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ColorofLuv, funny, I grew up amongst many Irish and I never heard the term “good hair.” But then none of them had really curly/kinky hair.
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ColorOfLuv,
Im sorry that kids made fun of your hair. I got made fun of too because of my afro textured hair so I can relate.
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“The thing (many) biracial people never talk about is that Whites are the ones who came up with the ODR, and Blacks were the ones who accepted these people who were oftentimes rejected by their own family members. So it’s suspect to me that few biracials (who are vocal about the ODR) direct their antagonism toward the White side–why are people fighting for acceptance on the side that doesn’t want them?”
Thank you!!! Personally I dont subscribe to the one drop rule but it annoys the hell out of me when bi-racial people get made and make it seem like black people made up the ODR. Yeah I understand some black people have animosity towards biracials, but as a whole blacks are more accepting of biracials than whites. If biracials are not being seen as such it has nothing to do with black folks, if white people saw biracials as simply biracial or “one of them” the wouldnt be defaulted to the black category. Simple as that. But white people DO NOT see biracials as white…most white people dont distinguish between monoracial and biracials…. As far as they are considered Don Cheadle and Halle Barry are the same race.
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I’ve have met others, but it is rare. If you go to the Black hair forum that Abagond posted, check some of the links I added there. Once you click on the link, it will take you to a thread where there are a lot of BW commenting as well as some White women about hair types -interesting pics there too. etc… You will be surprised.
White fro’s are more common than some might think, but due to stereotyping, it is probably thought of as a “perm”, person is “mixed with something, or person is Mediterranean, something else besides “stereotypical” white.
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Y,
Fortunately for me I have never been called “pretty for dark/black girl” but I know it happens a lot.
I had a “friend” who explained to me why people say “pretty for a dark girl.” She said that darker skinned people are starting of with a bad “palette.” Their feautures have to be better; more symmetrical, more uniform, their bone structure stronger than a lighter-skinned person’s in order for them to be considered attractive, since they have this bad “base.” So dark-skinned women should consider this a compliment, seeing as they had a poor start but managed to be attractive.
…Yes, she seriously said this and yes, she was nucking futs.
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Natasha,
A friend of mine said something similair she said there are many attractive light skinned girls so when someone says youre pretty for a dark girl it should be taken as a compliment because beautiful dark skinned women are rare.
And she told this to me …a darkskinned women
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@ Natasha W
SMH, that is terrible. Really, I started off bad because I am dark?!?! Foolishness. That is truly sickening.
The way some people think is so horrible that one cant help but be amused. If I heard that in person I would laugh and ask “What exactly is a ‘bad base'” SMDH Basically she is saying dark people are fundamentally flawed and we need to be exceptional to overcome those flaws and be considered attractive.
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Seeing pretty dark skinned women isnt rare its just people never care to look at them.
A lot of people already have a preconceived notion of what constitutes a beautiful black woman so they are taking by surprise when they actually look a dark-skinned woman in the face and see her beauty.
They wouldnt be so shocked if they paid more attention to the women around them.
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I really feel for any women here , light or dark, who had to suffer from some kind of put down based on their shade of color or texture of their hair ( you are a man, color, suck it in…ahhhh just kidding ).
One thing I have always admired in the black American female was the incredible range of shades of color and textures in hair. There is so much diversity and differant looks of beauty.
I love natural curly hair in black woman, and , at the same time I love straight looking hair in black women.I love extremly dark women and light skinned women.
And , you know what, I think black men mostly feel the same way , even if they dont say it. Its really too bad to see these attitudes that pop up implying superiority of one type over the other or some kind of discrimination.
I guarentee you, its in the cosmetic industries interests to make us all feel bad about how we look.
Color, to answer your question, my son was raised totaly in Brazil , and, one of the things he had to face was anti Americanism. He would get harrassed by the police for being in a mostly white neighborhood and him being brown.He would feel some social preasures among groups of white Brazilians.
He is hyper aware of his ethnic background , and, because of feeling this from other people , tends to be really hyper aware of other peoples ethnic background, ready to nail them if they dont accept him.
Of course, he can find colleagues of all races and nationalities, but, Im talking of those traces of attitudes that do prevail . And , anti Americanism exists in Brazil and prejudice against black people does exist in Brazil.
And, I am projecting that in the USA , he would not be accepted by certain groups of whites and blacks because he does not fit into description of core groups of these races. We can see on this blog that there are devisions and I can easily see he would bang his head on the wall trying to get accepted by some groups of people. For sure there are huge grey areas he could fit into and depending on the city also, like Miami, he might find plenty of people that look like him.
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leaveum,
The only reason why there seems to be many attractive light skinned women is because white supremacy and racism have globally defined white/light as attractive. Not because light-skinned people are inherently more attractive. Anyone saying otherwise has an agenda and/or color issues and should be viewed with suspicion.
y,
As a child, almost every woman I thought was very beautiful happened to be dark-skinned. I don’t even know why because my environment was pretty much colorism free. Maybe it’s because most of my family is lighter, especially the women, so it was something different.
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You know, color, for all its talk of being such a mixed country, I find Brazil to have huge pockets of colourism and regionalism.
Down south , from Sao Paulo on down, there are huge prejudices and put downs of people from the north east, who are mostly people of color.
There are definitive hiring practices that favor white people and lots of stereotypes of what is “good hair ” and “bad hair”. And lots of unmentionable discriminations based on color.
And the media is the worst offender of them all.
I cant help remembering one roll they put the beautiful black actress , Isabel Filardas (sp?), when , finily getting a lead roll in a night one episode show, she played a maid who was hired by the wife of one of her former clients when she was a prostitute.
She actualy played a maid and prostitute in one role, capturing both steryeo types in one show….only in Brazil…
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…by the way, color, on the other thread, I mentioned my son lives in the shadow of not being accepted, meaning it is always a posibility, not nescasarily a reality all the time.
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BR,
I love natural curly hair in black woman, and , at the same time I love straight looking hair in black women.I love extremly dark women and light skinned women.
And , you know what, I think black men mostly feel the same way , even if they dont say it.
Do they? I know most black men would deny having a preference for certain skin colors or hair textures, but I’ve heard many a black man make comments concerning these — “You high yellow girls just drive me wild” or otherwise making it obvious that they think lighter skin adds to a woman’s beauty. I don’t think they are immune to media influences of what is considered attractive. Even though the odds are most will end up with someone that is is more brown-skinned if they marry a black woman.
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“The thing (many) biracial people never talk about is that Whites are the ones who came up with the ODR, and Blacks were the ones who accepted these people who were oftentimes rejected by their own family members. So it’s suspect to me that few biracials (who are vocal about the ODR) direct their antagonism toward the White side–why are people fighting for acceptance on the side that doesn’t want them?”
Actually, white culpability for the one-drop rule is not so clear-cut. Black activists have supported it pretty much as long as it’s been around (since the early 1800s), and have oftentimes backed it more vociferously than whites.
Based on my own experience and that of others I know of, it would seem like whites have pretty much abandoned the one-drop rule with respect to light mulattos. Something I’ve noticed is that not even really racist white people I’ve met regard me as simply black. They generally don’t think of us as white, but not black either. They may make fun of us because we look strange or because were mixed, but they generally don’t attach anti-black stereotypes to us. There is definitely recognition of a social status intermediate between black and white for people within a certain visual range.
“Yeah I understand some black people have animosity towards biracials, but as a whole blacks are more accepting of biracials than whites.”
I’m not sure how accurate this statement is these days. There’s alot of diversity in the white population. I suspect that biracials can find acceptance much easier in some quarters than others. Liberal, college-educated type white people are probably the most open.
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For sure, Natasha, I cant speak with absulute authority on how black American males actuly feel.
I do tend to think sometimes attitudes get more play in the media than how people actualty think.
But, I have heard some black men say they do apreciete the variety of shades and colors in the black woman.
No matter what, it troubles me that any black woman who is dark and has curly hair has to feel some kind of bad feeling for how she looks. I find dark shades of color and curly hair in women to be very attractive , and , I wish any woman on here ,who has ever suffered from some bad feeling about how she looks because of media or personal put downs, would know that there are plenty of people who think like me.
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FG,
I’m not sure how accurate this statement is these days. There’s alot of diversity in the white population. I suspect that biracials can find acceptance much easier in some quarters than others. Liberal, college-educated type white people are probably the most open.
What do you mean by acceptance? Acceptance meaning “one of us” or meaning welcoming and open?
If it’s the former, I doubt it. I know the most liberal, crunchy granola white people and they do not view biracial people as white (except in the chance that they appear to be so).
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@B.R,
You’re description of Brazil would dishearten many mixed people in the US. I’ve noticed more than few view the country as a sort of paradise for people like them.
I guess no country has rid itself of color- or race-based prejudiced. None may ever accomplish this. What many like about Brazilian society, though, is that it recognizes and gives a place to multiracial people and doesn’t designate conformity to a relatively pure racial phenotype as a prerequisite for full citizenship (as American society does implicitly).
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“If it’s the former, I doubt it. I know the most liberal, crunchy granola white people and they do not view biracial people as white (except in the chance that they appear to be so).”
I love it when non-biracial people attempt to lecture biracial people on the biracial experience.
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Lol, I’m not trying to lecture you on the “biracial experience.” You’re being very defensive. I’m simply trying to tell you that most biracial people are not viewed as white by white people. Why? Because most do not look white (even if they don’t look black either).
I’ve already discussed this with numerous white people, seeing as my children will most likely be biracial, so I need to know what kind of environment they will be coming into.
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I was reading the comments section of an article by a black American activist advocating a black-white binary system in Brazil. A Brazilian respondent noted that if the Afrocentrists are to get their way and impose the one drop rule, light-skinned mixed race people would be disenfranchised there as they are in the US. They would lack standing in both the white and the black social spheres. You would not see somebody like Fernando Cardoso getting elected President of the country again.
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“Lol, I’m not trying to lecture you on the “biracial experience.” You’re being very defensive. I’m simply trying to tell you that most biracial people are not viewed as white by white people. Why? Because most do not look white (even if they don’t look black either).
I’ve already discussed this with numerous white people, seeing as my children will most likely be biracial, so I need to know what kind of environment they will be coming into.”
Well, alot of mixed people can pass for Southern European. Even though they’re not 100% white biologically, that is usually enough to be included in the white social sphere (i.e. be sociologically white).
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FG,
Well, alot of mixed people can pass for Southern European. Even though they’re not 100% white biologically, that is usually enough to be included in the white social sphere (i.e. be sociologically white).
A lot? Hmmm. The vast majority of biracial people I’ve seen do not look white, of any sort. They appear mixed or black.
But the real question is — why do you want them to be accepted by whites so much and be included in white social circles?
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Very true! I live in an area where there are a lot of ww/bm IR and there are tons of biracial people. I have yet to see one with this look. In fact, I don’t know they are biracial until I see their parents. I wish I could post pics of friends and acquintances who are biracial to show that their appearance is similar to black.
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“A lot? Hmmm. The vast majority of biracial people I’ve seen do not look white, of any sort. They appear mixed or black. ”
A few commentators have implied that they’ve met a large number of black-white biracial people. I’m skeptical about this because black-white offspring are actually quite rare in the US. Even if they have many a good number, that’s still just anecdote, not solid statistics.
“But the real question is — why do you want them to be accepted by whites so much and be included in white social circles?”
They need to be included somewhere by someone.
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FG,
Natasha basically said what I was going to say (well really, you did too). It’s not about whether White people think of biracial people as “mixed” vs. “Black”, it’s that a mixed person can never be “White”. Which is illogical, since being White does not automatically negate Blackness and vice versa. So if people are so accepting, why would they look at you (the general you) funny if you were to call yourself White? Aren’t you?
And not being thought of as “simply Black” doesn’t stop mixed people from facing race-based discrimination, so I would argue that yes, White people generally recognize mixed people as “mixed/Black” but never “White”. Otherwise they’d have White privilege.
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They need to be included somewhere by someone.
But how included are you if it’s only under the condition that you distance yourself from all things “Black”? If mixed people weren’t recognized as Black by Whites, they wouldn’t be so quick to distance themselves from “Black” stereotypes, because said stereotypes wouldn’t be applied to them. You can’t say that mixed people are “different” (in the eyes of White people) and then list all the things they do to not “seem Black” in the same breath–that’s a contradiction.
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FG,
A few commentators have implied that they’ve met a large number of black-white biracial people. I’m skeptical about this because black-white offspring are actually quite rare in the US. Even if they have many a good number, that’s still just anecdote, not solid statistics.
I’ve known several, although the number wasn’t large in any sense. I am from a large city, so there were a lot of people in general.
What kind of “solid” statistics do you think could be gathered on something as subjective as appearance and race?
They need to be included somewhere by someone.
Black people I know accept the majority of biracial people, as they don’t look very different from themselves.
I do know that those who appear more “ambiguous” face discrimination, but I really hope that changes as the US grows in diversity.
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“But how included are you if it’s only under the condition that you distance yourself from all things “Black”? ”
One droppists often make these arguments that mixed race people make Herculean efforts to distance themselves from blacks, but how people are categorized is largely not under their control as you’re implying. American society tends to sort people based on what they look like. If you look white, you have a harder time fitting in with the black kids and an easier time fitting in with the white kids. Since you socialize with whites, you become culturally white over time. Being physically and culturally similar to whites, you can easily integrate into that community. People do not tend to actively plan their racial status.
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Natasha W
leaveum,
The only reason why there seems to be many attractive light skinned women is because white supremacy and racism have globally defined white/light as attractive. Not because light-skinned people are inherently more attractive. Anyone saying otherwise has an agenda and/or color issues and should be viewed with suspicion.
I meant to add SMDH but I was in a rush. I agree. Trust me we got into a heated arguement for that back handed so called compliment.
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Well, the majority of your socialization comes from parents and family, so assuming there’s no lack of Black influences (and given few mixed people have no “Black” physical giveaways), there must be some degree of choice in identifying “against phenotype”.
Plus, I have to ask, why are people OK with being categorized by society if they are categorized as White, but not Black?
I think the difference is that Black kids may shun mixed kids for “acting White”, but they would shun other Black kids for the same thing. When it comes to Whites, it’s purely the phenotype that makes a difference in treatment, hence why the ODR was invented (and is maintained) by Whites. The only difference is that now some mixed people have bought into the hype, not realizing that frankly, they’ll never be “White”.
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With regard to typical biracial appearance, the following study of biracials at two Detroit colleges indicates on pg. 38-39, that 26.7 percent had a self-reported ambiguous non-black appearance or a white one. Most (56.2 %) had an ambiguous black appearance:
Click to access The%20new%20Color%20Complex.pdf
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I was going to read that study, but then I realized you use the term “self-report”. If it’s self-reported, the only conclusions the study could draw is that biracial people prefer to see themselves as “ambiguous”, and then maybe someone could do a follow-up study as to why they chose that (i.e., comparing self-report to outsider report might reveal something about the psychological “benefit” of seeing yourself as White). Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Jasmin, I was just going to write the same thing. “Self-report” is the keyword here.
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“I was going to read that study, but then I realized you use the term “self-report”. If it’s self-reported, the only conclusions the study could draw is that biracial people prefer to see themselves as “ambiguous”, and then maybe someone could do a follow-up study as to why they chose that (i.e., comparing self-report to outsider report might reveal something about the psychological “benefit” of seeing yourself as White). Sorry to burst your bubble.”
Most biracial people don’t have a major inferiority regardless of what they look like. One droppists have a tendency to project their own insecurities onto them.
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*major inferiority complex
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FG
Dont get me wrong, there are many mixed people in Brazil.
And, there is much less of a “black white devide” than the USA, which is a notable and refreshing compared to the race dynamics in the USA.Brazil is a wonderefully differant felling from the USA on that leval, but, laced with its own problems about race and class. It was a country that had more slaves brought there than the USA, and didnt abandon slavery until the late 1880’s, with ileagal slaves coming in after that. How could they not have huge problems from the after affects of slavery?
And there are plenty of people who fit into catagories it would be very hard to tell if the they are black or white or red.
But, there are serious color break downs and prejudices and serious media discrimination. If a Brazilian is complaining about racial rules and quotas, there is a good chance it is a white Brazilian
You can see on the media, in the congress,in the universities, in air line travel, in high end hotels and clubs,etc predominantly, obviously white class dominance.
And you can see in prisons north of Sao Paulo , a lot of people who would be obviously classified as black.
While some people here who have experiance in Brazil, go into great detail how there are lots of people who you couldnt really tell what they are, and those people even couldnt tell you what they are, I can definitly tell when a lot of people are predominantly white and when a lot of people would be classified as black in the USA (not the one drop rule , but just from apearance on the street, they would be called black in the USA).
While there is a huge mixture line in Brazil , much bigger than the USA, there are plenty of just out and out racist black/white dynamics in play in society and media here.
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BR,
I’m curious about the situation of the morena/o population in Brazil. Are they closer in status to the whites or the blacks?
It seems like Brazil celebrates them, but from what I’ve seen and read, it seems like the most important positions in the government and media are held by essentially pure white people.
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FG
“moreno/morena” is a sliding term in Brazil.
People will refer to an obviously black woman as “morena” , so the term is flexible.
There are tag terms like “morena clara”, lighter or could be white with black hair, or , “morena escura” for a woman who would be light brown to darker.
There is a term ” pardo” for mixed, there is a term “caboclo” for a mix of black and indian and “mestiço” for mixed and of course “mulata ” and “mulato”
Since it is sliding and flexible ,in my opinion, its hard to classify it as something “celibrated”, i would say more “accepted” with out the hard core racial classification , and , division ,that is in the USA. It just does represent a large group of people with a range of shades and colors .
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I think things are just racialy more relaxed in Brazil.
In the States, it almost seems like people get uptight if they want to know your mixture, probably because someone is going to peg them or somthing.
In Brazil, you almost feel like its so natural to look at somebody and admire their mixture, try to figure out what it is , not that it would be natural to just stop someone and talk about it.
It seems that inter racial dating is just much easiar, but by no means not without barriours, like if people see a black woman with a white foreigner, in the cities like Rio , or Salvador, there are some peole that would conclude she is a prostitute.
But to be sure there are blatent racist things going on, neo nazi groups (not in huge numbers but with some reported incidents. )and people called racist names
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…by the way, color , who lived in Brazil and Thad , who has lived almost as long as I have may have very differant opinions on this
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@BR,
Interesting. The Brazilian racial system sounds ultra-complex.
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I love Paula Pattons approach to the biracial situation. She said that when she looks in the mirror, she sees a black woman and fully embraces it. I love her attitude, anyway. She’s beautiful, successful with a extemely cute husband. She does not need to rely on falling back on heirarchy.
FG,
Now I remember some of your posts. I don’t think anyone here is projecting insecurities onto biracial people. Our main issue is those who express how much better they are in comparision to other groups.
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Look if biracial people were seen as white by American standards we would not be having this conversation. The fact of the matter is in the US what is phenotypically considered “white” is very narrow relative to is considered phenotypically black.
Im sorry to break it to you FG but as far as white people are concerned Halle Berry and Don Cheadle are the same race.
I dont care what people identify as but it bothers me when biracials act as if it is blacks that are preventing them as identifying as white/non-black. If white people say biracials as “white like us” they would not be complaining about it. You keep saying whites see biracials as white like them but truth be told there are not many white people cosigning this stance. The only white people that have this thinking usually white people with biracial children.
Jasmin brings up an excellent point, the whole “not black enough” is not something that is unique to biracials. I am 100% black and I was slammed with that meme in school. I hung out with white kids and did “white” extracurricular, for all intensive purposes I was socially “white”. Using the “not black enough” line is weak sauce because it can be imposed on monoracial and biracials alike
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FG,
I don’t think they do. But you seem to go back and forth between a “tragic mulatto” and “powerful hybrid” perspective. There are ways to “assess” skin color (there’s a scale that colorism studies use), and self-report isn’t it, unless you are looking at differences between self-perception and outside perception. Don’t be salty just because your evidence is poor.
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BR,
What part of Brazil are you from again? One of my good friends is studying abroad in Sao Paulo next Spring, and I would like to recommend you (if you have a blog or website or something) to him as a resource, if you wouldn’t mind. 🙂
Islandgirl,
I agree! Though do you notice that sometimes Robin only looks good from 1 side? 😛
Y,
Plenty of Black people (me included), have been accused of “acting White”, but I’ve never met any who subsequently distanced themselves from being Black as a result. Many didn’t hang out with the kids who called them that (for obvious reasons), but I’ve never heard anyone say they wanted to be White because people said “s/he acted White”.
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“But you seem to go back and forth between a “tragic mulatto” and “powerful hybrid” perspective.”
My view is that there is some truth to both but that the second has become more operative over time. For example, in the US not so long ago mixed people were stereotyped as ugly, though not many people seem to remember it. Now you have complaints that biracials have a superiority complex with respect to their physical attractiveness.
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FG
May I ask: how do you look like? Can you pass for a South European (and do people see you as such and regard you as white, at least as white as someone who is of Italian or Greek descend?)
I think mixed people’s experience vary based on the way they look. It’s not the same if you are phenotypically white (a rare thing, as far as I understand), or not. If you look at least part black whites won’t accept you as one of their own, even if there are some who would be open minded about you, accept you in their company or find you attractive/want to date you.
On the other hand, as far as I understand, black people are more ready to accept mixed people as one of their own. Now, of course there are issues of being or nor being “black enough”, but it’s also an issue for monoracial blacks and it doesn’t seem to be unique to biracials.
Now, my own (non-American) view on this is that there are black people, and white people, and mixed race people. Then again, there aren’t much stereotypes about either of the group (maybe only a few) where I live, so to me, “seeing someone as mixed race” simply means “this person’s parents, or granparents were interracial couple”.
@Jasmin
Plus, I have to ask, why are people OK with being categorized by society if they are categorized as White, but not Black?
I can think of a few reasons. The first one is simple: white is considered to be “neutral”. So I guess people assume that, if they are seen as white, they can be seen as individuals, rather than a stereotype or member of one race (because whites see themselves as raceless, default and neutral).
The other (again, simple) reason could be that people (consciously or not) believe “white is better”, so that’s how we get to tragic mulatto stereotype, I guess.
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FG Brazil I think is complex about race, but, in mostly a good way.
Jasmin, our web site is :
http://www.mrejackpotter.com
How about if I leave my e mail with Abagond ,and ,you or your freind can contact me if you want to, through contact to Abagond’s e mail ?
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islandgirl,
I love Paula Pattons approach to the biracial situation. She said that when she looks in the mirror, she sees a black woman and fully embraces it.
Makes sense. She and I have the same coloring. Which would be considered clear-cut black by most people, so she’s probably accustomed to being seen as black only.
She’s beautiful, successful with a extemely cute husband. She does not need to rely on falling back on heirarchy.
It does seem like much of this is about hierarchy; who is closer to white, and therefore higher up on the chain. But a person who is comfortable with themself does not need to be seen as “not black.” Their racial classification need not be the center of their identity.
Y,
I dont care what people identify as but it bothers me when biracials act as if it is blacks that are preventing them as identifying as white/non-black. If white people say biracials as “white like us” they would not be complaining about it.
Exactly. And furthermore, if whites decided to view biracials as white, there is nothing that blacks could do about it; they would be acknowledged as white. Whites make the rules, de facto or otherwise. People are being silly if they think for one second that blacks claiming biracials as black is what is detering them from being considered non-black or white. The opinion of blacks does not matter that much in the US, to be blunt.
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Jasmin,
I never noticed that about Robin Thicke. I’ll have to check that out. I love his style and swagger, though.
Your “powerful hybrid” explaination was well stated. I’ve even heard someone say that biracial people are healthier, though I don’t think this has been proven.
Natasha,
I love Paula’s coloring! I like anyone (dark or light) with a rich tone.
FG,
I don’t ever remember a time when biracials where considered ugly.
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Your “powerful hybrid” explaination was well stated. I’ve even heard someone say that biracial people are healthier, though I don’t think this has been proven.
I think it goes with the “outbreeding” theory. In one way, it does make sense (just like the opposite- reproducing with near cousins is not a good idea). Still, I don’t know if there is any actual proof of it (not for the cousins, for biracials).
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Lets remember that the term “hybrid” does not exist within the Human population as we all are “Cro-Magnon” descendants with the same forefather/foremother.
Hybrid? = Inter-species mating. Generally the offspring is ‘infertile’ although in rare cases some are fertile.
The comparison with Humans is highly degrading. We are all the same species: Homo Sapiens. Race is an invented concept and is in no way related to a species. (Race is a socio-psychological construct and is not based anything other than Human Kind’s prejudices.)
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I thought “utbreeding” means mating individuals from two different groups (whatever “group” means), not two different species, or even races. ???
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islandgirl,
I love Paula’s coloring! I like anyone (dark or light) with a rich tone.
Is it “rich?” I’ve only heard that term from white people, lol. I just consider it “tan,” since whenever I have to wear make-up, the shade is always called ___ tan. But I guess tan is what’s considered rich/healthy; white people seem to like tans that are around my complexion or a bit darker.
Mira,
I think it goes with the “outbreeding” theory. In one way, it does make sense (just like the opposite- reproducing with near cousins is not a good idea). Still, I don’t know if there is any actual proof of it (not for the cousins, for biracials).
There have been studies that have concluded that genetic diversity confers health (by way of bolstering the immune system). But to be genetically diverse, one need not be biracial or multiracial. A white person with a white parent from Ireland and a white parent from Italy would be genetically diverse. Or a black person with a black parent from South Africa and black parent from Georgia.
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Of course, that’s what I meant. But when it comes to biracial people, it’s the main point for many proponents. Of course, here is assumed that a child of any interracial couple is more genetically diverse than that of monoracial.
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… Which isn’t strictly true, I mean.
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Natasha,
I picked up the word “rich” to describe tone via Essence. I take it to mean “not washed out”, like say, Tisha Cambell.
We are in the same color family. My makeup is always tan or tawny.
I’ll have to research outbreeding and health. It seems that the healthiest (and longest lived) people in the world are of monoracial groups.
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I didn’t mean to imply that I buy into this “hybrid vigor” theory. I was just referring to biracials’ place in US society.
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“May I ask: how do you look like? Can you pass for a South European (and do people see you as such and regard you as white, at least as white as someone who is of Italian or Greek descend?)”
People are confused by my appearance, but I have been asked whether I am Italian. I’ve also been told to “go back to Mexico.” A Puerto Rican woman informed me that I look like her cousin. Some think I’m Arab. It varies.
As for the third question, those around me seem to view me as an exotic-looking white guy. It’s complicated, but if you look white and act in stereotypically white ways, soon enough people will start seeing you that way.
“I think mixed people’s experience vary based on the way they look. It’s not the same if you are phenotypically white (a rare thing, as far as I understand), or not. If you look at least part black whites won’t accept you as one of their own, even if there are some who would be open minded about you, accept you in their company or find you attractive/want to date you. ”
Right. I’ve repeatedly emphasized variation in experience.
“On the other hand, as far as I understand, black people are more ready to accept mixed people as one of their own.”
The black American standard for being black is much less strict than the white American standard for being white. Nevertheless, many light mulattoes have found it easier to assimilate into the white community. Blacks discriminate based on phenotype just like whites do, though not to the same extent.
“Now, of course there are issues of being or nor being “black enough”, but it’s also an issue for monoracial blacks and it doesn’t seem to be unique to biracials.”
It’s not the same thing. Monoracial blacks who “act white” are still considered truly black. They’re criticized for not conforming to the norms of what’s regarded as their actual racial status. If they change their behavior, they become “black enough.” Phenotypically white mixed race people are often not considered black at all.
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Nevertheless, many light mulattoes have found it easier to assimilate into the white community. Blacks discriminate based on phenotype just like whites do, though not to the same extent.
This confuses me–how can mixed people find it easier to assimilate into the White community if White people discriminate more based on phenotype?
Honestly, I think “tragic mulattoes” are those who are angry at their failed attempts to assimilate into White society and blame Black people because it’s easier (and maybe they are subconsciously blaming them for their “Black” features as well?). As Natasha said, what Black people think in the US really doesn’t matter on the large scale.
Sidenote, I have two friends who are Creole, one who identifies as Creole, then Black, and one who I think might be passing (though we are friends, so she’s not anti-Black, I don’t think). My first friend, when talking about people not knowing she’s Black, seemed to paint it as a problem of being afraid your “friends” might let something anti-Black slip in front of you, not knowing you are one of “them”. It sounded like a hard situation to be in, but it made sense, given that White people are more likely to use racial slurs against Black people than the reverse, and they have more power behind them. I wonder if anyone would say they worried about Black people saying bad stuff about White people in front of them, not knowing they were biracial? I’ve never heard of anyone hiding their White side–doesn’t seem necessary.
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FG –
great points… I am White. I’m proud of who I am as an individual. I’ve never denied nor claimed otherwise. Yet – I have been called N#@&*. I have been called half-breed. I have been told by black friends, that I’m not “actually White”. Nowadays, I’m just an old White man and nobody says different. However, I have walked the bi-racial line, but predominantly as a person who is “white”. But what does that really mean?????????
Colourism applies to us all within the United States. Even “White Folk” – especially down South!!!!! I’ve never been “Black enough” but I’ve (for the most part) alway been “White enough”. When I was in the Army and around my Black friends only, I heard all kinds of conversations that would never go on (like this blog) around “White folks”. Yet, when I would interject and say, “Hey – c’mon, I’m White.” My friends would always say, “Well, you’re different. You’re not really White.
Oddly enough – in Brazil, I was always White. Never a question. Even when I tried to say “I’m moreno”, I would get laughed at. “No, you’re White.”
ONLY IN THE U.S. is the colourism game at its worst!!!! I’ve always identified with bi-racials in this way. (at least the ‘passe blanc’ ones anyway.)
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@ Jasmin,
Ironically, your comments came up just before mine were posted, so I read your comments after my post.
You said: “I wonder if anyone would say they worried about Black people saying bad stuff about White people.”
My answer: To a certain degree….. But in general terms, I would not use the word “worry”. People are always sensitive when peers, friends, colleagues or strangeer “make comments/judgements” about people with who they identify – especially family.
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FG,
The black American standard for being black is much less strict than the white American standard for being white. Nevertheless, many light mulattoes have found it easier to assimilate into the white community. Blacks discriminate based on phenotype just like whites do, though not to the same extent.
Now, inform me of what exactly you mean by acceptance or assimilation? I don’t think you answered that, really. I do know biracials that have a primarily white social circle, but they themselves are not seen as white. One exception would be my cousin, but she looks white with a tan. I wouldn’t say most biracials look like her.
I can understand wanting to be perceived as biracial, but I don’t see why a biracial would want to be seen as white anyway, seeing as they are, you know, not white. Or I do understand, but it has everything to do with colorism/racism.
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Natasha W –
I was about to post a comment that was heated. But, I have much respect for you. Obviously, you have a great family, a diverse family, a strong and proud Black family. (which consists of passe-blanc family members)
You said: “I can understand wanting to be perceived as biracial, but I don’t see why a biracial would want to be seen as white anyway, seeing as they are, you know, not white. Or I do understand, but it has everything to do with colorism/racism”
It’s about respect, its about family, its about honor and self love. If I said, “I don’t see why anyone who could pass for White, would want to call themselves Black” —— that would be offensive. How is the opposite different? Should Wentwork Miller solely identify as Black? or can he BE PROUD to claim his heritage as it is?
Colourism …… Hmm…….
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“I can understand wanting to be perceived as biracial, but I don’t see why a biracial would want to be seen as white anyway, seeing as they are, you know, not white. Or I do understand, but it has everything to do with colorism/racism.”
You haven’t learned much about American society, have you? Social interaction in this country is heavily conditioned by racial group membership. Effective integration into a particular social circle often hinges on being perceived as racially similar to the people who belong to it.
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ColorofLuv,
Obviously, you have a great family, a diverse family, a strong and proud Black family. (which consists of passe-blanc family members)
My family members are of varying shades, yes. But none of my immediate family members could pass for white. My sister is usually thought to be biracial or mixed Hispanic, but not white.
It’s about respect, its about family, its about honor and self love.
No, it’s not. If it was about self-love, then the person would love themself for who they are. Which is biracial, not white.
If I said, “I don’t see why anyone who could pass for White, would want to call themselves Black” —— that would be offensive. How is the opposite different?
That’s not the opposite of what I said. I asked why would biracials (meaning all of them, including those that have a distinctly non-white appearance), want to be perceived as white, since they are not.
Should Wentwork Miller solely identify as Black? or can he BE PROUD to claim his heritage as it is?
You misinterpreted my statement and now you’re attributing ideas to me that I never expressed. I do not follow the One Drop Rule. Biracials can claim to be biracial, of course. Why shouldn’t they? “White” is not their heritage, at least not all of it. I’m not saying don’t acknowledge your white side, I’m saying recognize both sides.
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FG,
You haven’t learned much about American society, have you?
Don’t be silly.
Social interaction in this country is heavily conditioned by racial group membership. Effective integration into a particular social circle often hinges on being perceived as racially similar to the people who belong to it.
No, it does not. Many of my friends are white, and yet I am never confused for white. We have other things in common, like being from the same neighborhood or attending the same college.
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Also, FG, you still haven’t answered my question. Which is very telling.
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@ Natasha…
thank you for replying. Sometimes I may “misinterpret” what someone says. I’m passionate about what I believe and who I am.
You said: “You misinterpreted my statement and now you’re attributing ideas to me that I never expressed. I do not follow the One Drop Rule. Biracials can claim to be biracial, of course. Why shouldn’t they? “White” is not their heritage, at least not all of it. I’m not saying don’t acknowledge your white side, I’m saying recognize both sides”
I’m sorry…. Perhaps my problem is that I’m White with no Black relatives, but have passed for “Black”. It’s been frustrating (as a younger man) telling people I’m “White” and then having someone other than myself try to define just exactly “who or what” I am. I think that is the difference. My parents are White, but because someone at a certain point tells me “you’re not White”, means that I’m suppose to all of the sudden say, “I’m Black”. I can see a bi-racial person going through this, and I’m sure many have. The irony is that I AM WHITE.
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ColorofLuv,
People trying to tell you that you are not white, when you are in fact (full) white, is just ridiculous. But that’s not at all the same thing as what we are discussing here.
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“Now, inform me of what exactly you mean by acceptance or assimilation?”
Friendship, intermarriage, participation in group deliberation.
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Sure it is…. Colourism: Light skinned, Redbone, Black, Paper Bag test, White, Too White, Too Black, not black enough, Good, Bad, etc…. —- all judgements based on race AND colourism.
Is not the fact that someone looks at me and sees that I am “Black” an instance of colourism to a certain degree? – or- the fact that I am not “Black enough”? -or- That I am White, but OBVIOUSLY mixed, a light skinned brother, passe-blanc, etc…….
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“That’s not the opposite of what I said. I asked why would biracials (meaning all of them, including those that have a distinctly non-white appearance), want to be perceived as white, since they are not.”
Why does Obama want to be percieved as black when he’s not?
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ColorofLuv,
I’m confused, who said you were not White but Black? Black people or White people? Because while Black people saying it might annoy you, only White people saying it can deny you White privilege. Same with the ODR.
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FG,
Friendship, intermarriage, participation in group deliberation.
I agree that biracials can find all of this with whites. But so can blacks, so I don’t see why this is important to point out.
ColorofLuv,
Sure it is…. Colourism: Light skinned, Redbone, Black, Paper Bag test, White, Too White, Too Black, not black enough, Good, Bad, etc…. —- all judgements based on race AND colourism.
I’m not referring to the topic “colorism” in general, but the discussion that has taken place in the last several posts.
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FG,
Maybe I didn’t make it clear I was addressing this question to you, but I’m really interested in what you think:
This confuses me–how can mixed people find it easier to assimilate into the White community if White people discriminate more based on phenotype?
It seems like that would be saying, “Well Black people dislike me and White people dislike me, but even though it’s worse on the White side I’d rather try to be a part of that group.” I can’t think of a way that makes sense, unless one buys into White superiority (kind of like a girl who’d rather hang out with the popular girls who pick on her than the not-as-popular girls who are willing to tolerate her–“At least they’re popular!”). Which is fine, but it’s contradictory to claim to not want to be around people who don’t accept you, then seek acceptance in the group who rejects you the most.
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FG,
Why does Obama want to be percieved as black when he’s not?
If you knew Obama’s history, you would know he struggled with his racial identity and wasn’t always sure of where he belonged. But he now identifies as black because that’s what people perceive him to be and he faced much discrimination on the basis of this.
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“It seems like that would be saying, “Well Black people dislike me and White people dislike me, but even though it’s worse on the White side I’d rather try to be a part of that group.” I can’t think of a way that makes sense, unless one buys into White superiority (kind of like a girl who’d rather hang out with the popular girls who pick on her than the not-as-popular girls who are willing to tolerate her–”At least they’re popular!”). Which is fine, but it’s contradictory to claim to not want to be around people who don’t accept you, then seek acceptance in the group who rejects you the most.”
I disagree with your assessment of the situation. You’d be surprised by how much many white people accept mixed people. You’re also underestimating the level of antagonism to mixed people among some blacks.
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“If you knew Obama’s history, you would know he struggled with his racial identity and wasn’t always sure of where he belonged. But he now identifies as black because that’s what people perceive him to be and he faced much discrimination on the basis of this.”
What if people perceive you to be white, then?
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Natasha,
I don’t have a problem with the label “biracial” either, but I see it as a moot identification, because being biracial doesn’t construe any characteristics on an individual except that s/he has parents of 2 different races. Even if you just limit yourself to Black/White mixes, they all have different trajectories that are based on phenotypes, not internal characteristics. So, light-skinned biracials don’t face a brand of colorism that’s any different than light-skinned Blacks unless they make their biracial status a significant part of the question. Just as (we’ve already mentioned) that “acting White” is placed on Blacks across the spectrum. At best, you could talk about family dynamic issues (i.e., not knowing about 1 side), but even that would apply to a subset of biracials–those who are racially ambiguous. So to me, the word “biracial” is meaningless in the sense of a group status, because the category is so broad. I’m left-handed, but that doesn’t really tell you anything about me (if you ignore speculations/data on left-handedness and intelligence)–it’s a fact, but that’s about it.
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I didn’t say White people don’t accept mixed people, and plenty “accept” (that makes them sound like the gatekeepers of the popular lunch table, lol) Black people as well, as Natasha said, so that’s nothing special. What’s significant is that they don’t accept them as White. A biracial person cannot make public his/her biracial background and receive White privilege at the same time. Only in “passing” can one receive situational White privilege–it’s dependent on exclusion of the Black half. Plus, you yourself said that White people are more discriminatory than Black, so which is it? Methinks you are talking in circles, FG.
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FG,
What if people perceive you to be white, then?
This issue of identification is entirely different from actually claiming. My issue was with claiming rather than identifying. Although Obama identifies as black, he does not deny his maternal side.
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“This issue of identification is entirely different from actually claiming. My issue was with claiming rather than identifying. Although Obama identifies as black, he does not deny his maternal side.”
Um … oooooooookaaaaay!
Mixed people who are white-oriented generally don’t deny they are part black either.
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“A biracial person cannot make public his/her biracial background and receive White privilege at the same time. Only in “passing” can one receive situational White privilege–it’s dependent on exclusion of the Black half. Plus, you yourself said that White people are more discriminatory than Black, so which is it? Methinks you are talking in circles, FG.”
I don’t buy entirely into this notion of “white privilege.” White people are a racial group just like blacks are, and like blacks they have standards for who can and can’t become a member. There’s nothing wrong with that considering all racial groups do the same thing.
You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. If you look predominantly white, white people are pretty reasonable and are likely to give you the time of day, even if they know about your non-white ancestry.
What I said was that white people have tougher standards for being white than blacks do for being black. The minimum requirement for being black is basically visible African ancestry. To be white, you have to be overwhelmingly white in appearance.
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FG,
Um … oooooooookaaaaay!
??? Can you not debate this without becoming defensive? I guess this is too close to home for you.
Mixed people who are white-oriented generally don’t deny they are part black either.
What does “white-oriented” mean? Generally, if a person is claiming to be white, they are denying that they are black/partly black. Because acknowledging that would mean they are not white.
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@Jasmin –
It was some Black friends when I was in the Army who said, “You’re not White.”
It was White kids who called me N%$#@ around about 5th grade.
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Ironically, In Brazil, people claim “White” all the time. You would even perceive them as such and take it at face value if they told you, “I’m White, but you know what, my older brother is Black.” That is how much phenotypes can differ within one family.
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I’m just not going to discuss mixed race people anymore on this blog because it’s obvious that many commentators here are very hostile to us.
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FG,
You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. If you look predominantly white, white people are pretty reasonable and are likely to give you the time of day, even if they know about your non-white ancestry.
I don’t think that’s what happens across the board. Several of my cousin’s friends and a man she was in a relationship with began to shirk from her once they found out she was not white.
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FG,
I’m just not going to discuss mixed race people anymore on this blog because it’s obvious that many commentators here are very hostile to us.
On the contrary — you’re being hostile. Several times you’ve dismissed a commenter’s statements or questioning their knowledge. Your experience is not the only one that counts or the only one that is true. This is not a math problem.
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*questioned
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@ FG –
don’t let things get too personal. People must first understand that LIFE is a personal experience.
Each individual posting her has their own unique experiences. What Natasha W says about “Whites” shying away from a person because they find out they’re “mixed” is true. In my late twenties, I started dating a girl who was blond/blue eyed. This was still during the time many people thought I was mixed. An Uncle of hers ASKED her if I was one of those “mixed people”!!! It is still there…
@Natasha
There are Blacks who do not want to be overly associated with White – like it is a bad stain. Yes, it is true. AND this is what FG is talking about. (I think, correct me if I’m wrong FG.) For example, “I was ok because I wasn’t too White.” COLOURISM??? I was seen as Black enough by some, but not by others, but like I’ve said so before: WHAT DOES THAT REALLY MEAN??????????
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FG,
I understand all of this is “too close to home” for you, and I get why you take it so personally. Still, you must understand that your experience is just one example of biracial experience in America.
Also, you seem to see “acceptance” as something different than most of the people here. The way I understand other posters, we’re talking about the acceptance as “one of their own” for a group. To be friends with whites, to date/marry them, to share the same hobbies etc doesn’t mean to be accepted AS WHITE. I think people here asked you whether you believe biracials (or, in this case, just you) are accepted as whites, not if they are accepted into white circle of friends. It’s not the same thing, at least not in my book.
Also, you said some people thought you looked Italian. Ok, I guess those people saw you as white. However, those who told you to “go back to Mexico” or saw you as Arab didn’t see you as white.
And I agree with whoever said that whites basically make the rules (I think it was Natasha). Whites are those who decide whether you are white or not- and act accordingly. Sure, black people can do that too, but they don’t have the power whites have and their opinion is not crucial whether you’ll get white privilege. And when I say privilege, I don’t mean “to become rich and famous, without any worries”.
On the other hand, I do think biracial (black and white kind) people are not white OR black. They are both, in a way, and should recognize both of their sides, so to speak. If whites accept you as one of their own, great, but you (general you) should never be ashamed of your black parent. Mention that parent in white company to see if your status among them change (especially if you’re phenotypicaly white). Biracials should never hide their ancestry or be ashamed of their parents!
This goes both ways, of course. You should not be forced to deny your white parent or white side in black company, if you’re really afraid that black people would ask that. The thing is, black people know whites would not consider anyone with a black parent “white” or “one of their own”, so a non-white parent automatically makes you POC (person of colour) in white people’s eyes. That fact alone put biracials’ experience closer to black people’s experience. In that way, I guess, having a white mother or a father becomes, as Abagond called it once, “an interesting fact”. Of course, this doesn’t mean you should be forced to “act black”, whatever that means, and it doesn’t mean you yourself should see your white parent as an “interesting fact”.
All in all, as far as I understand, there are two groups of people in America: whites and POC. Now, the term “people of colour” is not the best one, imo, because it assumes all non-white experiences are the same, and, perhaps, that all non-white people are the same. Still, it’s a handy term if you want to check how whites (not non-whites) see the situation. I do believe biracials are seen as POC in America, unless they are passing for white (in which case it’s not a biracial experience but… well, passing-for-white experience).
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FG,
You should read up on White privilege probably. For someone who is so adamant about what “biracial” means, you sure seem to see things in (dare I say it?) black and white.
What I said was that white people have tougher standards for being white than blacks do for being black. The minimum requirement for being black is basically visible African ancestry. To be white, you have to be overwhelmingly white in appearance.
And you don’t find that strange? What you are saying (which is why I quoted you) is that White people would not see you as White if you were a few shades darker than you are (or had different features, etc.). So it would seem like you are comfortable with White people defining/validating your Whiteness (which is based on blood) while you are uncomfortable with Black people rejecting your Blackness (based on behavior). Interesting.
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“Also, you seem to see “acceptance” as something different than most of the people here. The way I understand other posters, we’re talking about the acceptance as “one of their own” for a group. To be friends with whites, to date/marry them, to share the same hobbies etc doesn’t mean to be accepted AS WHITE. I think people here asked you whether you believe biracials (or, in this case, just you) are accepted as whites, not if they are accepted into white circle of friends. It’s not the same thing, at least not in my book.”
I my case, yes people have told me they regard me as white. In addition, those indicators of acceptance are regarded in social science circles as the primary measures of group boundaries, so they are actually quite relevant.
“Also, you said some people thought you looked Italian. Ok, I guess those people saw you as white. However, those who told you to “go back to Mexico” or saw you as Arab didn’t see you as white.”
I’m a bit ambiguous looking, but so are many people who are officially considered white in the US (e.g. Spanish, Portuguese, Greeks, etc.)
“And I agree with whoever said that whites basically make the rules (I think it was Natasha). Whites are those who decide whether you are white or not- and act accordingly. Sure, black people can do that too, but they don’t have the power whites have and their opinion is not crucial whether you’ll get white privilege. And when I say privilege, I don’t mean “to become rich and famous, without any worries”.”
Blacks also decide who’s black or not.
“On the other hand, I do think biracial (black and white kind) people are not white OR black. They are both, in a way, and should recognize both of their sides, so to speak. If whites accept you as one of their own, great, but you (general you) should never be ashamed of your black parent. Mention that parent in white company to see if your status among them change (especially if you’re phenotypicaly white). Biracials should never hide their ancestry or be ashamed of their parents!”
When did I ever say this. You’re buying into standard cliches propagated by one droppists that mixed race people hate their black side.
“This goes both ways, of course. You should not be forced to deny your white parent or white side in black company, if you’re really afraid that black people would ask that. The thing is, black people know whites would not consider anyone with a black parent “white” or “one of their own”, so a non-white parent automatically makes you POC (person of colour) in white people’s eyes. That fact alone put biracials’ experience closer to black people’s experience. In that way, I guess, having a white mother or a father becomes, as Abagond called it once, “an interesting fact”. Of course, this doesn’t mean you should be forced to “act black”, whatever that means, and it doesn’t mean you yourself should see your white parent as an “interesting fact”.”
What I’ve been noting though is that a minority parent doesn’t automatically make you a minority in the US these days. If you approximate the white phenotype well enough, you can be considered white or quasi-white.
“All in all, as far as I understand, there are two groups of people in America: whites and POC. Now, the term “people of colour” is not the best one, imo, because it assumes all non-white experiences are the same, and, perhaps, that all non-white people are the same. Still, it’s a handy term if you want to check how whites (not non-whites) see the situation. I do believe biracials are seen as POC in America, unless they are passing for white (in which case it’s not a biracial experience but… well, passing-for-white experience).”
You’ve failed to critically evaluate the statements made on this blog. As Thaddeus has noted, the term POC is deceptive as the various non-white groups in the US have very different experiences. Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and Asians diverge widely in their experiences in the US and how they relate to whites. For instance, some Asian groups (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) are even more economically successful than whites, have white-level social status, and intermarry at very high rates with whites. There is a-lot of diversity in this “People of Color” group and the term conceals more than it reveals.
The fact that you buy into this notion of “passing for white” shows how little you know about modern American social conditions.
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Mira
“On the other hand, I do think biracial (black and white kind) people are not white OR black. They are both, in a way, and should recognize both of their sides, so to speak.”
I agree, I wonder if some day in America they will be labeled differently. Like South Africa the term is Couloured, Brazil is Pardo, but in America they are still considered black by most. Times are changing and I think this needs to change as well. I know Mulatto was used for a while but now it is considered a derogatory term.
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I should say that ColorofLuv is right that it makes mixed people upset when others tell them that the self-understanding they’ve built up over a lifetime is fraudulent or a reflection of self-hatred or whatnot.
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“I know Mulatto was used for a while but now it is considered a derogatory term.”
Not by everyone. It’s coming back into fashion.
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Sigh… FG, I really don’t understand why you’re so defensive. I am not attacking you. I am sorry (really) if my words made you uncomfortable- that was certainly not my intent.
The fact that you buy into this notion of “passing for white” shows how little you know about modern American social conditions.
This is true. I am here to learn and I don’t hide the fact I am a “race relations in America” newbie. Still, seeing that so many people disagree with some things you said here, I guess there are other views on this issue.
As far as I know, you are the only biracial person here. Your experience is unique and nobody else here had a similar experience. Nobody is trying to teach you how a biracial person should feel or act.
Still, the issue here are not feelings of biracial people, but the way whites- and blacks, accept/see biracial people. In that way, any person’s opinion is valid here, because it’s about the way others perceive biracials.
So, you are seen as white by most of the people. You are accepted as white. Good. As far as I understand, you said yourself: it has a lot to do the way you look. Again, good. But the reason I wrote: Biracials should never hide their ancestry or be ashamed of their parents! is not because I buy the stereotypes, but because the way you speak about this matter. I’m not saying you are ashamed of your black ancestry (after all, you’re not hiding it even here)- but it does seem like you are a bit angry with the black community (because they don’t accept you as their own? Because they DO accept you as their own, while you DON’T feel as a black person?) That’s why I wrote what I wrote.
Still, if any of the above is true, may I ask why you find ok to be accepted as white by whites, but not as a black by blacks? Isn’t that the same thing? I mean, you are neither: you are biracial/mixed.
My experience as a mixed person (a different kind of mixed) is that, yes, people would make you choose a side, or label you against your wish or into a “wrong” category. Yes, you can feel anger, or distress, when people want to claim you as their own against your wish (I know the feeling).
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“Still, if any of the above is true, may I ask why you find ok to be accepted as white by whites, but not as a black by blacks? Isn’t that the same thing? I mean, you are neither: you are biracial/mixed.”
I should say I’m not angry with the black community in general. There is a segment of it, though, that alot of mixed people are angry at.
Those that want to impose this One Drop Rule stuff generally don’t like mixed people and don’t accept many of them. They just want prevent mixed people from gaining social advantages from being relatively white. So these racial attributions actually are quite hostile in intent.
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Mira,
As far as I know, you are the only biracial person here.
If I remember correctly, Vindicator is also biracial/multiracial. And alwayright101. And others I am forgetting. And Black&German who doesn’t post as much anymore, but still comes from time to time. There are several.
Still, if any of the above is true, may I ask why you find ok to be accepted as white by whites, but not as a black by blacks? Isn’t that the same thing? I mean, you are neither: you are biracial/mixed.
Precisely. I don’t see FG as desperate to be seen as black, as he seems to want to be viewed as white. And that’s not a knock on him, but it affects the way he is approaching this issue tremendously.
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I think Mulatto should come back. If I were half black I would rather be called Mulatto than black. I would just like to recognize and respect both sides of my family.
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Eurasian Sensation is also Biracial I think.
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With regard to:
I wonder if some day in America they will be labeled differently. Like South Africa the term is Couloured, Brazil is Pardo, but in America they are still considered black by most. Times are changing and I think this needs to change as well.
One of the difficulty of this analysis is that it does not quite take on the political undercurrents and overtones.
For instance in the aforesaid ‘bi-racials’ have been used as a ‘buffer’ between ‘Black’ and ‘Whites’ with bi-racial never being able to achieve the status of being ‘White’.
This is also the same phenomena in the Arab world.
It is this type of polemics I think bi-racials need to be aware of .
Its one thing to construct an identity on an ‘individual’ level, but that same process also has to be undertaken at a ‘social’ level too.
Hope this makes sense – since I am multi-tasking, not my strong point he he he
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Ó Dochartaigh,
Eurasian Sensation is also Biracial I think.
Right. I didn’t even take into account the non-black/white biracials.
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I should say I’m not angry with the black community in general. There is a segment of it, though, that alot of mixed people are angry at.
Ok, this is interesting.
So, you’re saying (some) black people are those with such attitudes. And not whites? Please, try to think outside your own experience: after all, you claim you’re seen as white. But what about biracials who look black? Do you think they have the same experience?
Those that want to impose this One Drop Rule stuff generally don’t like mixed people and don’t accept many of them.
We’re still talking about blacks only?
They just want prevent mixed people from gaining social advantages from being relatively white. So these racial attributions actually are quite hostile in intent.
As far as I understand, blacks can’t prevent anyone from gaining social advantages (privilege), because they are not the ones who decide who get the privilege!
Sure, they can reject you as their own, and some of them, perhaps, would not want to be your friend/marry their daughter. Ok. But they can’t give you or deny you privilege (or, as you call it: social advantages): only whites can!
So I don’t think you should be angry with (certain) black people about the privilege, since they are not the ones deciding whether you can get it or not.
Isn’t that more logical?
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The phenomena in the Arab world is slightly different, since there is no ‘buffer zone’ as such, where ‘mixed types’, whatever their shade is viewed as ‘Arabs’ and do view themselves as being different to ‘Black African’
da*n multi-tasking he he
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Natasha,
Oh yes, sorry. There are more biracial people here. I forgot about Euaraisan Sensation (he is Asian/white), and I didn’t know about Vindicator, Black&German and alwayright101. Still, I believe FG’s posts are the only one about biracial experience I’ve read here, so I guess that’s why I thought he was the only one.
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@Mira,
Blacks are not as powerless in America as you’re making them out to be. They can affect discourse.
White people generally don’t pay much attention to the mixed race issue. Blacks tend to be much more concerned about. Through mass media, academia, and so forth opinions can be influenced by those supporting this ODR doctrine.
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Mira,
Still, I believe FG’s posts are the only one about biracial experience I’ve read here, so I guess that’s why I thought he was the only one.
B&G and alwaysright101 write about their experiences quite a bit, if you read old comments. But the difference is that they view themselves as more or less black.
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FG,
White people generally don’t pay much attention to the mixed race issue. Blacks tend to be much more concerned about. Through mass media, academia, and so forth opinions can be influenced by those supporting this ODR doctrine.
1) All or even most blacks are not in support of the One Drop Rule. I heard many say “Obama is not black, he’s biracial,” at the beginning of his campaign.
2) Of course blacks pay more attention to the One Drop Rule since society at large tends to view a huge segment of black/white biracials as black. So it effects them, and not whites. The fact that whites can ignore discussion about it says volumes about how biracials are viewed — not white.
3) Again, why are you in support of being perceived as white, but not as black? Your argument against the One Drop Rule is not very convincing if you really are for it, just in the opposite way — that biracials could/should be seen as white.
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Bi racial is just such a broad term, when I ask someones ethnicity and they say bi racial, it does not tell me much. Like with me; when someone asks me my ethnicity which happens a lot for some reason, I say British or Irish, because the British Isles make up 90% of my family tree. Even if people of African and European decent do not like Mulatto, then I think some other non derogatory term should be used. Like Rosario Dawson, she is 1/4 black, 1/4 Spanish, 1/4 Irish, and a 1/4 Native American 100% gorgeous! What would her label be? That’s a tough one.
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Natasha
I can’t answer for FG, but it would be much better to be considered “Italian” than black in this country. Italians get white privilege, black people don’t.
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“3) Again, why are you in support of being perceived as white, but not as black? Your argument against the One Drop Rule is not very convincing if you really are for it, just in the opposite way — that biracials could/should be seen as white.”
The fact is society does perceive you as white if you look pretty close to white. That’s how you’re treated and come to identify over time (though not forgetting your mixed background). However, the ODR people attempt to depict mixed people who fit this description as frauds. They’re just “passing.” Therefore, the ODR these days essentially amounts to anti-mixed race prejudice.
I think biracials should be allowed to sort into whichever group most accepts them. I’m supportive of Obama identifying as black, for example. What I’m opposed to is orchestrated political movements to stigmatize light mixed people many of whom are already in a somewhat precarious social position as it is. And let’s drop this charade that black people accept anyone who has a drop of black blood. You know that’s not true.
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Let me put it this way, I am strongly attracted to dark women, but I am afraid of having children with a dark women, because of how cruel Americans can be. Some black folks would say they are not dark enough, some white folks would say they are too dark. I would rather my kids be closer to “Italian” in looks than black, at least then they would not be discriminated against as often.
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I think it’s difficult for me to get my point across because individuals like I’m describing are so rare that it’s hard for anyone to empathize with.
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Blacks are not as powerless in America as you’re making them out to be. They can affect discourse.
I am not making anything. Like I said, I am hardly an expert on these issues. I do, however, read what other people write (here or elsewhere).
I don’t see blacks as “powerless”, but yes, I do believe whites are those who decide who gets the privilege and who doesn’t. It’s logical: they are the majority and they (more or less) run the whole country.
White people generally don’t pay much attention to the mixed race issue.
Really? They don’t care about interracial dating, they don’t care if their son brings home a black girl? They don’t care if their grandchildren- or their children would be white or half black? I am sorry, I could not believe this.
What I can believe is that whites don’t pay much attention on biracial vs black identity…. Because, guess what?- most of them see those people as non-white, plain and simple. And yes, yes, I understand they accept you as their own, and maybe they accept Wentworth Miller as one of their own, but let’s be honest here: most of the biracials do look like they’re not fully white.
And as some white people said here, you can be white and not accepted as such if you are a bit darker than the norm (I know this from another source: my friend’s father was discriminated when he tried to enter America, because he was seen as an Arab, and he is white- and not THAT dark white, but he does have a mustache). All in all, yes, I do believe whites could accept biracials who look (and act white), but that’s not really the point.
Also, did you ever think that (some) blacks might not be angry at biracials because they are mixed (and accepted as white), but because said biracials act like white person (not in a way of manners, but in a way of imposing white privilege on them… Biracials, the people they (I assume) think “should know better”?) Sorry if it’s not the case with you; I am not accusing you of anything, just trying to understand.
Blacks tend to be much more concerned about. Through mass media, academia, and so forth opinions can be influenced by those supporting this ODR doctrine.
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What I’m opposed to is orchestrated political movements to stigmatize light mixed people many of whom are already in a somewhat precarious social position as it is.
I’m sure there are some that are in support of the One Drop Rule, but making it out like every black person is trying to choke biracial people until they say they are black is untrue. Many blacks will mention that a person is biracial as well, say, if they are introducing them, even if they view them as black.
And let’s drop this charade that black people accept anyone who has a drop of black blood. You know that’s not true.
Your issue is that you view everything in black and white (Jasmin already pointed out the irony of that phrase above). I never said that blacks accept “anyone who has a drop of black blood.” I did say that they are accepting of those who look black or mainly black, maybe not so much of those who are ambiguous/white-looking. But even so, people like Mariah Carey are still very much accepted by blacks.
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The last two lines are not mine, but FG’s I forgot to delete. lol
@Ó Dochartaigh
Let me put it this way, I am strongly attracted to dark women, but I am afraid of having children with a dark women, because of how cruel Americans can be.
Sigh. All I can say here is: be the change you want to see in the world.
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“But even so, people like Mariah Carey are still very much accepted by blacks.”
After she became famous. Interestingly, her best friends in high school were white.
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Mira
I know that is easy to say, but very different to put in action. Like I have said before, I live in a very racist predominately white part of America. If I had dark children I would knowingly have to put them through hell just by sending them to public school. I don’t think I could do that.
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Let me get this straight: if you (general you) support mixed marriages, then don’t oppose idea of you being in one and having mixed children. Simple as that.
And yes, HERE I know exactly what I’m talking about. Like I said, I am mixed ethnically and I married a man who is also mixed and I know about my experience and about his.
Yes, being mixed can be complicated sometimes, but it’s not a disease. If you are truly attracted to black women, Ó Dochartaigh, you should not oppose the idea of having kids with one.
@Natasha
B&G and alwaysright101 write about their experiences quite a bit, if you read old comments. But the difference is that they view themselves as more or less black.
I understand they wrote about it, but I didn’t have a chance to read their posts about it. Also, if they all see themselves as black, FG’s case is a bit different, since he see himself as biracial and strongly opposes the idea to be seen as black (but not as white).
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And yes, some darker white people may get disrespected here and there. That’s because most American whites are of the Anglo/Celtic/Nordic/Germanic varieties. Nevertheless, being of southern European descent is not a big disability. Italians are actually quite beloved in the culture.
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@Ó Dochartaigh
I know that is easy to say, but very different to put in action. Like I have said before, I live in a very racist predominately white part of America. If I had dark children I would knowingly have to put them through hell just by sending them to public school. I don’t think I could do that.
I don’t want to be preachy here, but I am sure you’d think of something if you truly want to be with a black woman and have kids with her. You can, I don’t know… Move? Or accept that your children are biracial, and learn how to help them. It’s not like they’re doomed to be tragic mullatos.
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“FG’s case is a bit different, since he see himself as biracial and strongly opposes the idea to be seen as black (but not as white).”
What I’m opposed to are politically-motivated attempts to redefine people away from how they and those around them have come to understand them.
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And yes, some darker white people may get disrespected here and there.
The way I understand this, darker whites are not generally disrespected for being Mediterranean, but for not being white at all (people see them as Mexicans or Arabs, for example). It’s not the same thing to dislike Italians and to dislike non-white people. As far as I understand, ColorOfLuv was not seen as white at all- it wasn’t like he was seen as Italian and discriminated because of it. (Though I must admit he looks 100% white to me, and I bet I would think the same for you). But that’s because race as a construct is a bit different in my culture. (And also because I don’t have any experience with black people so perhaps I can’t recognize when someone is part-black. – Wentworth Miller effect I guess).
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What I’m opposed to are politically-motivated attempts to redefine people away from how they and those around them have come to understand them.
Oh, FG! News flash: you can see yourself any way you like, nobody can take that away from you. But still, it doesn’t matter much (no, it doesn’t!), if people around you see you differently. As far as I understand, you don’t have that problem with people around you: you see yourself as biracial and people see you as white (and it’s fine with you, even if people around you don’t see you as biracial, but white). Ok. I can also understand you dislike certain politically-motivated attempts, but what does that have to do with you? As far as I understand, those people are not close to you, so why would you care if a random stranger believes you should identify yourself as black? And ONCE AGAIN: why is that so much worse than being seen as white, given the fact you’re neither and see yourself as biracial?
What I’m saying is: you don’t seem to see yourself as white, but as biracial. So why aren’t you mad at white people who try to claim you as one of their own?
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Or is it that you actually do see yourself as a white man who happens to have a black parent? I am sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but I believe you said once that you are not close with black side of your family (except your black parent).
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“What I’m saying is: you don’t seem to see yourself as white, but as biracial. So why aren’t you mad at white people who try to claim you as one of their own?”
This may be difficult for someone outside the US to understand, but blacks and whites operate in two almost distinct social spheres. Thus, if you want to integrate successfully among whites (friendship, marriage, and so on) you need to be perceived as basically white. The same is true if you want to integrate with blacks (study the life of Obama to learn about this process). Therefore, black-white biracials in the US generally can’t be that emphatic about being biracial, unless they can find other mixed people to hang out with. So because I fit much better the white phenotype, it’s easier to integrate into the white community. Given this orientation, it’s important to be seen by them as white. I hope this makes sense.
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“Or is it that you actually do see yourself as a white man who happens to have a black parent? I am sorry if this sounds disrespectful, but I believe you said once that you are not close with black side of your family (except your black parent).”
I don’t really see myself as white. Mixed is definitely my personal identity.
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Yes, it does. Thanks for explaining.
Still, it’s sad. I can’t believe whites and blacks can’t be friends at least. 😦 I always thought it’s not impossible. (I mean, not friends in a way of “oh, why don’t we all get along”, but actual friends, having friends of different race). And yes, I might be prejudiced here. Blame Hollywood and their token best black friends (note: I hate tokenism, but I guess movies did have an impact to me, since I honestly thought it was nothing strange for white person to have black friends and vice versa).
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Sorry for my indignation earlier. I guess I shouldn’t be that worked up over this issue because it doesn’t show up in my personal life. I really need to stop following these semi-militant mixed race websites.
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I don’t really see myself as white. Mixed is definitely my personal identity.
Thanks for making that clear. I mean, it does make sense (to me, at least). But then again, to me, Obama is mixed too. I mean, his parents were interracial couple, just like yours or (lol, him again) Wentworth Miller’s, or Slash’s.
Speaking of Slash, he could be an example of a biracial with white culture (if you see rock music as white), but I don’t know if he was seen as white.
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I disagree, FG. I (like plenty of Black people) have White (and non-White) friends–it’s really not that special. (Which is why I don’t see what Mariah Carey having White friends has to do with anything, but I digress.) I think people who claim to know all these polar opposites attract/associate with polarizing people. Kind of like how *some* WW who date BM are always complaining about BW hating on them, while other WW with BM are like, “Huh?” If it was just based on the interracial relationship status, it would happen across the board. Since it doesn’t, there must be something individual (I think in your case you are positing that it’s your phenotype?) to evoke that kind of reaction. So, “biracial” status, doesn’t necessarily provoke this push-pull dichotomy you are describing. The exact same thing could happen to a 100% Black person who was thought to look White. Or someone like ColorofLuv.
OD,
If you have ugly children, school will be hell for them. Same as with fat, or special needs, or “nerdy” kids. Unless you would take all of those other things into account (if I did, I know I just wouldn’t have kids), then I don’t think you need to make special considerations for skin color (at least not in that particular domain).
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If you have ugly children, school will be hell for them. Same as with fat, or special needs, or “nerdy” kids. Unless you would take all of those other things into account (if I did, I know I just wouldn’t have kids), then I don’t think you need to make special considerations for skin color (at least not in that particular domain).
I wanted to say the same thing, but I didn’t know how NOT to make it look like I’m claiming being black is the same thing as being fat or nerdy.
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@Jasmin,
I’m sure if interracial bonding where as easy as you claim there wouldn’t be a demand for a blog like this and there wouldn’t be any motivation for all of the angry anti-white comments you read here.
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Well ugliness and genetic abnormalities are out of the parents hands. Skin color and obesity is not.
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Skin color is not entirely a given, but you can make a pretty close guess by looking at your partner.
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Well ugliness and genetic abnormalities are out of the parents hands. Skin color and obesity is not.
Lol, what?!? Are you forgetting about the genes that control melanin and those small number of them that give us our skin colour, eye colour, hair texture… Those things are out of your control the same way genetic abnormalities are. Same goes for obesity.
You should really think about your personal reasons for not wanting to reproduce with a black woman and for not wanting black (mixed race) children. Why do you see that as such a tragedy? Do you believe there is something wrong or bad in being black?
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This may be difficult for someone outside the US to understand, but blacks and whites operate in two almost distinct social spheres. Thus, if you want to integrate successfully among whites (friendship, marriage, and so on) you need to be perceived as basically white.
Once again, this is not true. Not true at all. Most of my friends in college were white, and I’ve been in a long-term relationship with a white guy for the past few years and lived with his all-white family for a period. None of the aforementioned perceive me as “basically white.” Being the same race as someone is not a prerequisite for getting along with them or being friends with them. And being the same race as someone does not mean you will be friends or socialize with them.
Just wanted to clear that up for non-Americans like Mira so they won’t think that the US is as black and white as FG is portraying it to be.
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First of all less than 1% of genetics cause childhood obesity.
http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/obesity_in_children_and_teens
Second, this blog talks about how horrible white people are to dark skinned people, and I have seen this first hand. Now you and Jasmin are just telling me to ignore this like it is no big deal, I can’t do that.
Third, I see absolutely nothing wrong with being black, but it doesn’t really matter, because there uncle would, there teacher would, the kids at school would, and there is nothing I can do about that.
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Unless obesity already runs in the family, which it does not in mine.
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This website says “genetics alone are not the cause of obesity.”
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/obesity_in_children/page2_em.htm#Obesity%20in%20Children%20Causes
Obesity is mostly the fault of the parents, but that is off topic. My point was you can make a pretty good guess for how your children turn out just by looking at yourself and your partner.
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“Being the same race as someone is not a prerequisite for getting along with them or being friends with them. And being the same race as someone does not mean you will be friends or socialize with them.”
Nevertheless, black-white intimate relationships are still quite rare in the US.
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As far as I know, obesity can be caused by several factors, for example, thyroid problems that you can not control.
And second of all, yes, whites treat blacks badly, and in a way I can get a logic of your thinking: you don’t want your child to be discriminated against, so you want it to be white. But it doesn’t work that way. First of all, as far as I understand, you are not married, and there isn’t a lady in your life that you see as a mother of your kids. Yet. Also, you say you’re attracted to black women and I assume you would date one… And guess what, one day you meet a black lady who seems as close to a soulmate as you can get. THEN, what? You would break up because you don’t want black kids? Marry someone just because she is white? Or don’t start any relationship with black women?
To me, it seems you are contradicting yourself. On one hand, you seem to dislike the current racial climate in the US and want to change it. On the other hand, you do nothing about it. Which means it doesn’t bother you that much, or else you would do something about it (move, change the attitude, etc). It doesn’t have to be like this, you know.
@Natasha W
Once again, this is not true. Not true at all. Most of my friends in college were white, and I’ve been in a long-term relationship with a white guy for the past few years and lived with his all-white family for a period.
Well, I must admit this make more sense to me. But then again I’m not trying to imply FG is not telling the truth. Obviously his experience is different and (I noticed this before) he sees his experience as more universal than it might be. Or maybe it depends on location? America is a large country and situation in one region could be different than the others. Still, your experience makes more sense to me.
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Nevertheless, black-white intimate relationships are still quite rare in the US.
So? There are plenty of reasons why that is the case besides them just not being compatible. And that does not in any way prove your point that one has to be the same race as a person in order to mingle with them effectively. Methinks you need to get out more.
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Mira,
Well, I must admit this make more sense to me. But then again I’m not trying to imply FG is not telling the truth. Obviously his experience is different and (I noticed this before) he sees his experience as more universal than it might be. Or maybe it depends on location? America is a large country and situation in one region could be different than the others. Still, your experience makes more sense to me.
This is what I think the disparity in views is arising from: FG is biracial. Biracial people (particularly those that do not look clearly one way or the other) I’ve noted tend to be hyper-alert to the differences and divisions between the races of their parents. They will notice that blacks tend to sit with each other in the cafetaria, while completely missing that many black athletes are best friends with white athletes. So, in their mind, there are these huge, insurmountable differences between the races and they are stuck in the middle of it.
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When judging veracity, keep in mind Natasha was the one who claimed she was subjected to a modern-day paper bag test.
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…. and passed!
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When judging veracity, keep in mind Natasha was the one who claimed she was subjected to a modern-day paper bag test.
???
And this is relevant how? I did say that was done in the South and the South tends to be more divided between black and white.
You’re just resorting to ad hominem now.
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“And this is relevant how? I did say that was done in the South and the South tends to be more divided between black and white.”
BS. I’m from the south. My family has lived there for hundreds of years. That just doesn’t happen.
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Mira
Believe me this is something that I have thought about for a long time. This country has a stigma about all things outside the majority. If a Homosexual stays in the closet their whole life, are they contradicting themselves just because they want to go along with the norm? I don’t think so. Some people just want to live a quiet life without making it harder than it already is. Regardless if I think something is right or wrong, if the majority of Americans don’t like it, then you better not do it, or be prepared for your life to become a lot more difficult. I think God is a just a human concept, but your not going to catch me holding a sign saying I’m an Atheist, I would probably get assaulted in the street.
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BS. I’m from the south. My family has lived there for hundreds of years. That just doesn’t happen.
Well, it happened to me. You can’t just say it’s BS. Remember: your experience is not universal.
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BS. I’m from the south. My family has lived there for hundreds of years. That just doesn’t happen.
I’m from the deep South and people’s grandparents have said it happened. A couple of years ago there was a club promotion where light skinned girls get in free which is the same as the paper bag test.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
I get what you’re saying (logically); I just disagree with you. Of course, do as you think it’s the best for you. I understand the power of living a quiet life without making it more difficult. Still, people should never do that against themselves, against what’s truly important to them.
So to me, staying in closet for your whole life might spare you from discrimination- but is it really worth it? You are not being yourself that way. If you love a person of another race and want to have kids with her, but you are scared because kids will face discrimination: breaking up is not worth it! If your atheism means that much to you, hiding it it’s not worth it! That means living a lie just for the sake of… what? Not facing social stigma? Yes, it can hurt, badly, but there are things that are more important, that are worth the pain.
Of course, in your case, we can speak only theoretically, since you are not in a serious relationship with a black woman (and I guess you’ll never be).
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Leaveumthinking,
You can’t be serious. That is just ridculous. I would have reported that because it’s a form of discrimation.
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Mira
It is hard to say who I will date, ideas change, circumstances change, I’m sure even I will change. I dated a bi racial girl in high school and we were called every name in the book, she got really upset about it, I think it is part of the reason we broke up. Maybe I just had a bad experience, and know what will happen if I try again. I don’t know if you know anything about Appalachia, but it is a very backward place, not the type of place to think outside the box. I have a love hate relationship with where I live.
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The event didnt take place where I lived. But alot of people complained about the flyers which read “light skinned girls get in free” and the event was cancelled. I read about it on the internet and on the radio there was a discussion about it. I forgot where it took place but I know it was in the South.
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FG,
I guess when you can show me who’s “demanding” that this blog exist and demonstrate it’s “real-world” importance, then I will believe that this one man’s blog is actually making a difference in the world.
(No offense, Abagond. I really like your blog. But I don’t see world domination in your future anytime soon. :-P)
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OD,
Would you really take such a laissez-faire approach with your child’s well-being? If the child was perceived as Black, s/he would be socialized as most Black people are (and I think we turn out all right :-P). Children who come out “messed up”, as people say, tend to be that way due to neglect on the parents’ part (in terms of racial socialization, positive role-modeling, etc.), not because the people surrounding them were especially mean or anything. So parents who shrug their shoulders will raise self-fulfilling prophecies, because their kids won’t have those protective factors.
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Jasmin
I think most black people turn out just fine, but most people on this blog talk about white privilege, and how it effects black folks in a negative way, which I agree with. Now; I have the option to have children that will have this privilege if they are white, or not have this privilege if they are bi racial. I would rather them have this privilege and have all the opportunities that come along with it. White privilege is wrong and should not exist, but it does. I think more than anything, I would just want my children to have all the same privileges I had growing up.
I just want to be clear, I have no problem with interracial marriage or bi racial children, but I honestly had no idea that POC felt so strongly about white privilege, or how badly it effects them, until I started reading this blog. Now I am almost certain I would not want my children to experience this. Abagond has opened my eyes to this harsh reality.
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@OD: If I were half black I would rather be called Mulatto than black. I would just like to recognize and respect both sides of my family.
I don’t know what label I’d call myself if I were half black; it might well depend on what I looked like, where I lived, and how I expected people to perceive me. But I do know that I am in fact half Greek and half WASP, and tend to identify myself as Greek-American rather than WASP, Mediterranean rather than Northern European, and “white ethnic” rather than whatever the word is for white-and-not-at-all-ethnic. And I don’t see that as not recognizing and respecting both sides of my family; I love both my parents, and both sides of my family, and appreciate all my heritage. But my nose is from the Greek side of the family, my eyes are brown rather than blue, and my hair is the thicker texture of the Greek side rather than the finer texture of the WASP side. Plus, given that our naming system is patrilineal, I got the Greek last name that sounds a bit unusual in America rather than the WASP name that sounds more ordinary. Relative to the other kids I knew growing up in Westchester, I felt more Greek-American than WASP American.
So if any of the set of nephews and nieces whose mother comes from Africa decide, as they get older, to simply check the black census box, as Obama does, I won’t consider it a lack of appreciation of my side of the family. On the other hand, if they choose to identify as biracial or mixed, that’s fine by me as well.
This may be difficult for someone outside the US to understand, but blacks and whites operate in two almost distinct social spheres.
This is definitely an overstatement of what I’ve seen (growing up in New York and living as an adult in California).
I dated a bi racial girl in high school and we were called every name in the book, she got really upset about it, I think it is part of the reason we broke up. Maybe I just had a bad experience, and know what will happen if I try again.
This isn’t my experience of interracial dating in California; I lost one friend over it, and my other friends were fine with it. I figured the real friends are the ones you keep. And this was, oh, around thirty years ago. We broke up in the end, sure. You always break up, until you find the relationship that lasts. And, who knows, maybe things failed in part because in some way I didn’t handle the interracial part as well as I could, was white people clueless in some way I shouldn’t have been. Or maybe things ended for some other reason altogether. Either way, we both did our best, we didn’t part hostile, and we’re both long married to other people and doing fine; if I had the same choice to make, I’d do it all over again.
I do understand the business of being afraid of your children encountering prejudice, because, if you grow up white, to have your children encounter bigotry because they aren’t considered white is to have your children encounter a difficulty that you haven’t prepared for and learned to deal with. And it’s hard enough watching your children face the problems of life that you know they’ll face already, without also looking forward to seeing them face problems you don’t know how to prepare them for.
But on the other hand, to some extent all parenting is like that, I think. If you did marry one of those darker women you say you’re attracted to, and you did have children together, then that could affect where you choose to live, and who you choose to associate with. And, if that’s scary enough to you, maybe, at this point in your life, choosing not even to date people who aren’t white is better than dating and bailing a few months in when you can’t deal with whatever prejudice you’re getting. But, the way I look at it, seeing my own nephews and nieces, seeing, in fact, my whole family that has intermarried every which way, if this is the person you love, it’s worth it, and the kids are fine, really.
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Lynn Gazis-Sax
“This may be difficult for someone outside the US to understand, but blacks and whites operate in two almost distinct social spheres.”
I didn’t write that FG did, but where I am from it is pretty much true.
I can understand identifying with the race you most look like, but I would still try to identify with both. As far as your comments on interracial dating and children, California and New York are pretty liberal about this sort of thing so it would not be so bad. I live near the West Virginia border, people don’t take to kindly to “strangers” and “colored folk,” so it is a lot harder to date someone who is not white around hear. Think Deliverance and Dukes of Hazard, that should give you a pretty good idea.
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Lynn Gazis-Sax
“I think. If you did marry one of those darker women you say you’re attracted to, and you did have children together, then that could affect where you choose to live, and who you choose to associate with. And, if that’s scary enough to you, maybe, at this point in your life, choosing not even to date people who aren’t white is better than dating and bailing a few months in when you can’t deal with whatever prejudice you’re getting.”
That is exactingly how I feel. It’s like your reading my mind. In order for me to have a relationship with a darker woman, I would probably have to move. I’m not sure I want to do that. I love where I live, except I hate the racism and ignorance in this area.
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@Ó Dochartaigh
In order for me to have a relationship with a darker woman, I would probably have to move. I’m not sure I want to do that. I love where I live, except I hate the racism and ignorance in this area.
Then I guess you already decided on your priorities. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I am sad to hear you claim to hate white privilege and racism, but are willing to be a part of it, so to speak. And while I don’t think one person can necessarily make a difference in the world (it’s a bit idealized thinking), one person can certainly make a difference for him or herself. Being an outcast is not easy, but sometimes it’s the only right and honest way to go.
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leaveum,
I’m from the deep South and people’s grandparents have said it happened. A couple of years ago there was a club promotion where light skinned girls get in free which is the same as the paper bag test.
This wasn’t anything formal — I wasn’t being granted or denied access to anything based on my skin color. But it still happened nonetheless.
Anyway, I really should have asked FG what does a black person giving another black person the paper bag test say about black/white relations in the US (the point in contention)? I think it says more about colorism amongst blacks than it does anything else.
Ó Dochartaigh,
I think most black people turn out just fine, but most people on this blog talk about white privilege, and how it effects black folks in a negative way, which I agree with. Now; I have the option to have children that will have this privilege if they are white, or not have this privilege if they are bi racial. I would rather them have this privilege and have all the opportunities that come along with it.
Ah so, your qualms are about white privilege and the loss of it, once being married to and having children with a black person. I understand, and I’ve heard this reasoning before. It’s sad, really, but everyone’s free to make their own choices in life.
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“This may be difficult for someone outside the US to understand, but blacks and whites operate in two almost distinct social spheres.
This is definitely an overstatement of what I’ve seen (growing up in New York and living as an adult in California).”
It is geography-dependent. I bet there’s more integration in areas with relatively small black populations and in more liberal areas.
However, the level of black-white social distance overall is still great. Just check out numbers on interracial marriage, residential segregation, and so on. 4% of marriages involving at least 1 black spouse are interracial marriages, for example.
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And keep in mind what Ó Dochartaigh has written about race-relations in his area.
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Oh, I didn’t see Ó Dochartaigh’s response above.
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Natasha
“Ah so, your qualms are about white privilege and the loss of it, once being married to and having children with a black person.”
Well I can’t lose white privilege, it doesn’t matter who I marry, I will always have it. My concern is about the kids, it is kind of my choice if they have it or not, but I am still confused about this issue. Before reading this blog I didn’t think it was such a big deal, now I think it probably is a big deal.
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Ó Dochartaigh,
<em.Well I can’t lose white privilege, it doesn’t matter who I marry, I will always have it.
Oh, you can lose some white privilege by marrying a black person. Certain whites will hesitate to socialize with you, and that can lead to loss of the benefits that come with these contacts, like jobs. When buying a house, realtors will steer you to mixed or other neighborhoods instead of white ones. And often times the white neighborhoods have better amenities than the other neighborhoods. I didn’t think these things were real until they happened to me. So yes, you can lose [some] white privilege.
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Sorry, didn’t quote the above correctly, but the first two lines are yours.
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Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to be a total hypocrite here. I know I am not crazy about emigrating to America (even with he bad economic situation in my country) because I am not crazy about becoming an immigrant. Plus, I believe my husband would be seen as “racially ambiguous” and probably discriminated, and frankly, we don’t need that. So it’s not like I don’t understand the wish to avoid discrimination.
Still, there are differences. I don’t want white privilege and I don’t want to become and American. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to visit America, but I don’t want to be an immigrant and I don’t want my kids to be colour blind racists (whatever I try, it might affect them). Strange, the fact that they might be discriminated against if they turn out darker is not what concerns me that much.
So maybe the thing here is that Ó Dochartaigh is not in a serious relationship so any of this is just a hypothetical. Breaking up with a black lady who is your soul mate just because of having black children instead of moving into a less racist place would be a horrible thing. But it’s not like Ó Dochartaigh is in given situation so let’s just leave it at that. Still, it saddens me, because I believe the change you want to see has to start with you, or else you don’t have any right to complain.
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@Mira:
Great post, Mira! I agree. The change begins with Ó Dochartaigh. Listen. I have several relatives who married interracially. One of my 1st cousins is married to a wonderful Trinidadian-Canadian. Their two children are adorable. She knew her children would face obstacles as POC and how society would view/treat them, but that didn’t stop her from marrying the man she loved. She’s happy. Good for her! I wish more people thought that way.
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“Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to be a total hypocrite here. I know I am not crazy about emigrating to America (even with he bad economic situation in my country) because I am not crazy about becoming an immigrant. Plus, I believe my husband would be seen as “racially ambiguous” and probably discriminated, and frankly, we don’t need that. So it’s not like I don’t understand the wish to avoid discrimination.”
I doubt people mind immigration from Eastern Europe that much these days. Things were very different in the early 20th century of course. It’s mainly Mexicans and other Latino immigrant who are taking the most heat at the moment.
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So maybe the thing here is that Ó Dochartaigh is not in a serious relationship so any of this is just a hypothetical.
Where I live 99.03% of the population is white, so me dating a black girl, let alone marrying one is slim to none. So yes it is pretty much a hypothetical.
I keep hearing “the change begins with me,” but me marrying a black girl is not going to change anything. It is not going to make me anymore open minded of POC, I see them as 100% equal to me already. It is not going to change the people in my community they will continue to be prejudice regardless of who I marry. So really the only thing it will change is, when I have children they will be discriminated against. Which is something I do not want.
Strange, the fact that they might be discriminated against if they turn out darker is not what concerns me that much.
I guess that is difference between Europe and America. Mira you have to remember where I am from (Appalachia) POC were hung or killed just for the color of their skin less than 30 years ago. So forgive me for being cautious about having bi racial children.
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@Ó Dochartaigh:
Fine. You don’t want them discriminated. You’ve obviously made up your mind. Then what’s the point then?
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Oops. I meant, “Then what’s the point?”
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I agree Leigh. OD, you act like mountains will move based on your decision to marry a Black woman or not. Trust me, they won’t.
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leigh
My point is someone said it was “sad,” but given my circumstances and where I live, I don’t see it that way.
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Ó Dochartaigh
I do think it’s “sad” because you’d rather forgo having a possible compatible partner and a family of bi-racial children and for what? Because of that damn white privilege. It’s really silly.
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Leigh204 – my partner is bi-racial, a white looking haitian, grew up in haiti and queens, ny – has never felt truly accepted by blacks though her family is “black”, and mixed, she constantly gets questioned for being who she “is” by colleagues and even the hispanics at the NJ d.m.v. “blanquito haitian?” giggle, giggle- she has struggled with her identity for years and would never want to have a kid go through what she has due to her skin color being so very light. it has been difficult for her to accept herself amidst the hatred from her own race and the disbelief from the white folks around her.
Why would anyone want to willfully create a reason for being different in their children – Why give OD such a hard time for not wanting to create bi-racial children who would be raised in such a racially tense area as WV?
A friend of mine has a mixed race child and is beginning to deal with some of that in her child as she progresses in age at an integrated school…. kids pick on any difference they can find. Black kids tend to loathe lighter skinned kids and castigate them… why? because their parents tend to loathe lighter skinned people, why? because dark ppl loathe light ppl… right?
In OD’s case, light (white) ppl loathe darker ppl…. why create an underdog? OD would have to work hard to make that happen anyway in WV where the dating pool is skewed heavily towards whites.
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Marie,
Who’s giving OD a hard time? Leigh basically just called him out for being emo* (tm Moi). “Light” does not mean “biracial”, and as you said, “kids pick on any difference they find.” So you really shouldn’t have kids at all with that line of thought, because they might be considered ugly, or dumb, or a loser, or just be plain not liked. Only lazy parents would throw up their hands and say “Oh well, those are the breaks kid.” (I actually know a girl with parents like that, and she resents the hell out of them now.)
*By emo, I mean taking on an excessive “woe is me and the racism of the world!” stance. Plus it comes off very, “Sorry poor Black girls, but I just can’t do it. Don’t go jumping off a cliff now!” Implies that some Black woman not marrying you is tantamount to the end of the world (for her).
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I don’t see his comments as emo* – I see them as situational and based on is situation why would he change anything? He says thinks and feels as he does, so why not believe him?
How many black women go out of their way to date white men and have mixed kids? Assuming they are not, why not?
Do black women want light skinned kids or potentially white looking kids who look different from them?
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my partner is bi-racial, a white looking haitian, grew up in haiti and queens, ny – has never felt truly accepted by blacks though her family is “black”, and mixed, she constantly gets questioned for being who she “is” by colleagues and even the hispanics at the NJ d.m.v
That sound like the plot for a modern day ‘tragic mulatto’ novel. You write as if you don’t like black folk and are looking for reasons which justifies this dislike.
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Do black women want light skinned kids or potentially white looking kids who look different from them?
Don’t generalize too much from your partner’s situation to the woes of light skinned blacks. I grew up in the same neighborhood as Vanessa Williams (the first Miss America one), and I’ve never gotten the impression her family suffered that much for being light skinned. Certainly not so I’d dread having someone like Vanessa for a daughter, or someone like her brother for a son.
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Jasmin
By emo, I mean taking on an excessive “woe is me and the racism of the world!
I could say the same thing about every POC on this blog, but I don’t, because I respect other peoples opinions, and I genuinely believe them when they say white privilege effects them in a negative. If I were to tell you to stop being so Emo about racism, I would be labeled a racist inconsiderate a**. I have never said anything that attacks you personally, yet most of your comments talking about me have been Ad Hominem attacks.
Plus it comes off very, “Sorry poor Black girls, but I just can’t do it. Don’t go jumping off a cliff now!” Implies that some Black woman not marrying you is tantamount to the end of the world (for her).
I never implied anything of the sort. I don’t believe I am better than black women, and I certainly don’t think I would break any hearts if I didn’t date them. Just because I am cautious about having kids with a darker woman does not mean I don’t respect them or that I’m not attracted to them. To be honest some of the most beautiful women are bi racial.
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“I genuinely believe them when they say white privilege effects them in a negative way.”
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herneith, you are a poor interpreter of my words – and your application of them to my thoughts and intentions is ass backwards.
give it a break.
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Lynn,
“I’ve never gotten the impression her family suffered that much for being light skinned.”
That still doesn’t answer the question of would a black (dark skinned woman) want to have a child with a white man and possibly have a very light skinned child who looked differently than herself.
I imagine the Williams didn’t mind when their children looked like them, all light skinned.
I wasn’t generalizing – the comments were in a separate post and related to the heat I felt he was getting from Leigh204 about not dating a black woman and having mixed kids, not my partner’s life experiences.
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marie,
Black kids tend to loathe lighter skinned kids and castigate them… why? because their parents tend to loathe lighter skinned people, why? because dark ppl loathe light ppl… right?
I don’t know about all that. My sister is on the paler side (A. Keys complexion) and I’m a shade darker than her and we were never teased for our skin color. Ever. I was not really aware of colorism issues back then (because I was never discriminated against due to my color), but thinking about it, we were probably favored due to our color. Definitely so when we came to the South. I highly doubt a dark-skinned black child would fare better in school than a lighter-skinned child in terms of being teased.
That still doesn’t answer the question of would a black (dark skinned woman) want to have a child with a white man and possibly have a very light skinned child who looked differently than herself.
I imagine the Williams didn’t mind when their children looked like them, all light skinned.
Well, my brown-skinned father married my very light-skinned mother, and he surely didn’t care that his children didn’t come out his complexion. Love transcends skin color.
Not that Ó Dochartaigh should marry a black woman. Who cares if he does or does not? Everyone has to make their own decisions in life, but I guess people are thinking that his qualms are based on tenuous claims. Children are teased for many reasons besides skin color.
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Yeah, I have to agree love seems to transcend fears of what my kid would go through as a bi racial child.
But, deciding where I want to live and raise my kid definitly was affected by him being bi racial.
The time my wife was pregnant (by the way, today is our 24th wedding anniversary), you cant help but wonder what the baby will look like. But , not one issue about whether he would be too dark or too light. Those things just dont come into play.
I kind of was hoping for a little girl who would look like her mother, my mom, bless her heart , said she had a dream that the baby came out with the head of an NBA basketball player….
But , when he was born, exactly who he is, became the focus and how he would fit in .Issues of problems he might face as a biracial child definitly werent the most dificult things to deal with.They come up , but, arnt as debilitating by any means as other things that kids have to contend with in this dog eat dog world.
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Happy Anniversary, to you and your partner…
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OD,
Read Natasha’s last paragraph. Honestly, if you “love where you live”, even though you make it sound like a racism rathole, then I think your concerns extend beyond what color your kids turn out. Not that you “have to move” or anything like that, but I doubt you are as “we are the world” as we claim if you are OK with living in what you describe as a pretty hostile environment. White slacktivism at its best.
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“To be honest some of the most beautiful women are bi racial.”
I think the most beautiful women are all races. This is a common line of thought and one that encourages the thinking of the biracial commenter that I discussed in another thread.
Her statement was that the only burden of being biracial is being unusually good looking. And emphasizing with black women for not being to get a date.
I grew up around a lot of biracial people and I will tell you that, on average, they are no more or less attractive than any other group. Trust me.
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Islandgirl does this biracial commenter always brag about being a wife and mother? If so I know who she is.
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@FG
I doubt people mind immigration from Eastern Europe that much these days.
Oh, I am sure Eastern European immigrants are doing fine… once they are assimilated. But a) before that, you speak with a strong accent suspiciously sounding like a Russian, and you have all those… weird customs and… funny characters in your names, b) I am not sure I want my kids to be Americans, plain and simple. c) Last, but not the least, I am not sure if my husband would be seen as white, and I don’t want him to be discriminated against.
All in all, financial situation is bad here, but I am not sure if I want to become an immigrant.
@B.R.
Happy anniversary! 🙂
But, deciding where I want to live and raise my kid definitly was affected by him being bi racial.
My thoughts exactly. I am not saying people should be blind, or naive, not to see what’s going on. Who would want to raise a biracial kid in a racist part of country/world? Pretending there is no issue whatsoever is not going to help.
Still, what I’m saying is: a wife and a child are more important than anything, and of course you (general you) should fit your place of residence to their needs, not the other way around (fitting your wife and kids into the place of residence).
@islandgirl
This is a common line of thought and one that encourages the thinking of the biracial commenter that I discussed in another thread.
True, this seems to be yet another stereotype. There are some extremely good loking biracial people you see on TV… But wait, you see them on TV. Their monoracial colleagues are also attractive, more attractive than your average person. It’s how TV (movies, fashion industry, music) business work.
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Yeah, I just can’t cosign on biracial people being the most beautiful; to be honest, a few I’ve seen are not conventionally attractive at all. The biracial people in the media are pretty attractive, but everyone in the media is better looking than the average person, for a variety of reasons.
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My previous comment is in moderation, and I honestly don’t understand why. I didn’t use any “forbidden” words… I think.
In any case, let’s continue 🙂
@Ó Dochartaigh
My point is someone said it was “sad,” but given my circumstances and where I live, I don’t see it that way.
I believe I was the one who said it was sad. Now, I honestly don’t want to attack you, be preachy or tell you how to live your life. I am just using your comments to talk about this issue and present my own views on it.
Plus, I can’t help noticing one thing about your attitude that I see as a positive thing: at least you see there is problem with racism and you don’t seem to assume black people have problems because they are lazy and don’t want to work hard. What I’m saying: some white people seem to believe their biracial kids or their adopted black would never have any problems or feel racism on their skin (no pun intended) because they (white people) are the ones who are raising them. It doesn’t work that way.
The problem here is not your realisation of the problem, but your wish to defend your white privilege instead of doing what you can, as an individual, to fight against it. It has nothing to do with your choice of life. Speaking hypothetically again: would you mind raising your white kids in such a racist part of US? Don’t you think it can do harm to them, as human beings, as well?
Now, the most important part
I guess that is difference between Europe and America. Mira you have to remember where I am from (Appalachia) POC were hung or killed just for the color of their skin less than 30 years ago. So forgive me for being cautious about having bi racial children.
People killed over ethnicities and religion not that long time ago in my part of the world. Let me see… 10-15 years ago. The tension is still here.
Yet, I never even thought of not wanting to date a guy who is of different ethnicity or religion. Being mixed myself was probably helpfull, but in any case, I was always open to dating people of all ethnicities and religion, regardless if “their” people did horrible things to “my” people and vice versa. My husband is mixed in that way and I am glad neither of us opposed the idea of dating and marrying.
I keep hearing “the change begins with me,” but me marrying a black girl is not going to change anything. It is not going to make me anymore open minded of POC, I see them as 100% equal to me already. It is not going to change the people in my community they will continue to be prejudice regardless of who I marry. So really the only thing it will change is, when I have children they will be discriminated against. Which is something I do not want.
You marrying a black woman won’t change the world, nor would anything big and significant happen if you don’t do that. It’s not the point. The point is: you have to be very honest with yourself. Do you like the current state of things? Do you think some things are unfair and you disagree with them? Do you believe it would be better if things were different?
If you truly, honestly believe that, then you can’t support that system and the state of things. Or else you don’t have any right to complain about it- just accept it and forget about any problems or unfair things you see.
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I don’t hold a particularly strong brief on whether Ó Dochartaigh should marry a black woman whom at this point he hasn’t even met, and who is therefore a purely hypothetical black woman, not someone he’s actually fallen in love with and who has actually fallen in love with him. I just think that any reasoning on why he might not want to marry this purely hypothetical black woman whom he may never meet anyway shouldn’t be based on exaggerations about how much darker skinned black people resent lighter skinned black people. Especially not ones that speculate that black mothers will have problems with their own children being lighter than them.
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Leaveum,
Uhhhh….. yeah. Actually, brags about everything. I’m sorry, but I cannot stand people who are arrogant and who think that they are better than others. There is nothing wrong with being confident and appreciating what GOD gave you, but people who look down on others – not cool.
Natasha,
You’re right. Most people in the media are above average in attractiveness. That is part of the reason for their success.
Another example of the biracial attractiveness mindset is a show I heard on Howard Stern. They were discussing black men and he was comparing Denzel and Blair Underwood to Wesley Snipes. He said that Denzel and Blair have to be mixed because they are so handsome. And that Wesley is full (then he used some derogatory racial slur). Very telling.
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@marie
That still doesn’t answer the question of would a black (dark skinned woman) want to have a child with a white man and possibly have a very light skinned child who looked differently than herself.
What are you talking about? Kids are never copies of their parents (that’s why sex exist, as the opposite of binary fission). What does “want to have a kid who looks like herself” mean? My mother’s eyes are green, my father had dark brown, almost black eyes. My eyes are light brown. Oh! I don’t have my mother’s eyes! I also didn’t look like her at all when I was born. Don’t you think she still loved me and accepted me as her own child?
Also, who said skin colour is what make people similar or dissimilar? It is possible to have your father’s skin, hair and eye colour, but to look like your mother.
I don’t understand your line of thinking. (But it’s not like I never heard it before, a friend of mine told me a similar thing: she is ok with dating black men, but not having children with them. Why? Because she wants kids that look like her.) And I told her what I tell you know: I don’t understand. Your kids will look like you, or won’t look like you, but it has nothing to do with colour of your skin. Unless, of course, you believe all black people look the same, which is another issue.
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@islandgirl
Another example of the biracial attractiveness mindset is a show I heard on Howard Stern. They were discussing black men and he was comparing Denzel and Blair Underwood to Wesley Snipes. He said that Denzel and Blair have to be mixed because they are so handsome. And that Wesley is full (then he used some derogatory racial slur). Very telling.
That is horrible! Actually, Wesley is dark skinned, but he looks like a guy from my class… Who is white. So there you go, he could be mixed too. Silly people.
Now, it’s not the secret I consider Blair to be… Well, one of the hottest celebrities in the world, but I never even thought about whether he’s mixed or not. I assumed he wasn’t.
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islandgirl,
Another example of the biracial attractiveness mindset is a show I heard on Howard Stern. They were discussing black men and he was comparing Denzel and Blair Underwood to Wesley Snipes. He said that Denzel and Blair have to be mixed because they are so handsome. And that Wesley is full (then he used some derogatory racial slur). Very telling.
Blair Underwood and Denzel Washington mixed? Lol. And I don’t really find them attractive — never got the hype. Wesley Snipes has better bone structure than them, and isn’t ugly for a man his age:
But I don’t know why people always point to Wesley as being some anomaly. Does he really look much different from the every day black man? I didn’t think so.
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My guess would be that some places are quite a bit better for raising visibly mixed kids than others. The optimal locations are probably Hawaii and California. The South and working class urban areas in the North and Midwest are not so good. If the kids look black, pretty much anyplace with a reasonably sized black population would work.
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Mira and Natasha,
I agree! There is no way that I would have thought either of them would be mixed. They look like attractive, black men. And I don’t see what is so unusual about Wesley. He looks like any black man.
But Howard is good for that.
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“Yeah, I just can’t cosign on biracial people being the most beautiful; to be honest, a few I’ve seen are not conventionally attractive at all. The biracial people in the media are pretty attractive, but everyone in the media is better looking than the average person, for a variety of reasons.”
The question then becomes why are biracial people so overrepresented in the media. Is a larger proportion of the biracial population fit for prime time?
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The question then becomes why are biracial people so overrepresented in the media.
I assume that’s because they are less black than “regular” black people. (if we’re talking about black/white mixes). They are closer to white ideas of beauty and actually represent what Abagond called “acceptable blackness”.
Just my (uneducated) guess.
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“I assume that’s because they are less black than “regular” black people. (if we’re talking about black/white mixes). They are closer to white ideas of beauty and actually represent what Abagond called “acceptable blackness”.
Just my (uneducated) guess.”
Okay, with regard to socially-defined beauty standards, the idea is white > biracial > black. Then why does it seem like black-white biracials are also overrepresented in the media relative to whites as well? Keep in mind there are only few million in the entire country?
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I would ask another question: what about black people? Biracials certainly don’t make majority of media people, whites do. But if there are more biracials than blacks… well, there you go, biracials stand for blacks, so to speak: to make networks and producers seem less racist and employers more diverse, etc etc.
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I mean, more diverse cast. … Without actually, well, hiring black people.
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There is evidence that the black-white mixed kids are more attractive:
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/the-plight-of-mixed-race-children/
Notice point 3.
The other observations paint mixed people as being in a really bad condition, but keep in mind the data that was used to conduct this study were gathered in the early 90s when social conditions were much worse than they are nowadays.
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FG, that is no “evidence.” It simply states, “Mixed-race kids do have one advantage over white and black kids: the mixed-race kids are much more attractive on average.” On what basis are they making that claim? I couldn’t open the PDF for some reason. But any study claiming to measure something as subjective as attractiveness does not pass.
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FG,
Mixed kids are NOT more attractive than monoracial kids. How dare you or anyone else compare children. We want all children to have a healthy self image and those kind of statements suggesting that on group of kids are better than the others leads to self esteem issues in children. Your arrogant way of thinking is why you have such a hard time when dealing with the black community.
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FG,
The question then becomes why are biracial people so overrepresented in the media. Is a larger proportion of the biracial population fit for prime time?
This would be your answer:
I would ask another question: what about black people? Biracials certainly don’t make majority of media people, whites do. But if there are more biracials than blacks… well, there you go, biracials stand for blacks, so to speak: to make networks and producers seem less racist and employers more diverse, etc etc.
And they are only overrepresented in the media compared to whites because whites are the majority in the US.
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I opened PDF, and, as far as I understand, there was a study in which people had to rate someone’s attractiveness. Apparently, biracial kids (teenagers) did better than the whites.
Still, it can prove another thing. It can prove black is beautiful, for example, , or something else alltogether. In any case, it’s just one study. I know FG is vocal about this, and see the issue as personal, which I understand, but this is hardly a proof.
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The question then becomes why are biracial people so overrepresented in the media. Is a larger proportion of the biracial population fit for prime time?
Where is this overrepresentation of biracial black/white in the media? Blacks in general are limited in Hollywood regardless of parentage and often have to make their own media projects like Tyler Perry or Oprah Winfrey in order to have relevant Hollywood work. And even then Black men such as Will Smith and Denzel Washington who are most certainly not mixed, out earn most Black women performers, including Halle Berry. The biggest box office draws have alwys been Black men who are not noticeably mixed—like Wesley Snipes in his hey day, etc. But that is true for White actors as well; men make up most of the top slots of A list actors and thus make the most money.
Urban/Hip-hop has traditionally been dominated by Black men who identify as Black, therefore Biracial who identify solely as biracial, have hardly been dominating that sphere of entertainment either. Even Black accapelo (sp) black women groups like en Vogue and Destiny’s Child have always been Black women, who never avidly claimed a mixed racial identify and solely claimed Bi-racial. As is most Black entertainment and its performers throughout history. Alicia Keyes is actually an anomaly. Models are the same-in fact the trend has layaways been very dark, racially unambiguous Black models. Again how are Biracials over representative in the media and of beauty standards?
If anything, Asian/White mixes are seen far more then Black/White mixes, because there are more of them then Black/White, the acceptability factor that Blacks don’t enjoy compared to Asians, there is an exotic factor to Eurasian that many White men have, and the fact that many could actually pass for White such as Michelle Branch and Keanu Reeves.
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“…this is hardly a proof.”
But it is evidence.
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I opened PDF, and, as far as I understand, there was a study in which people had to rate someone’s attractiveness. Apparently, biracial kids (teenagers) did better than the whites.
Right. I looked at the PDF files as well and there is no objective standard as to how Biracials are better looking than their peers other than a subjective measure. There is nothing scientific about this supposed evidence other than opinion. Biracials who have Black/White are rare anyway, those marriages and the resulting children are less evident then Asian/White. Also the obvious point that since interracial pairings are going to be difficult, looks are going to be have a higher premium between couples, which may result in better looking children—even though there is no guarantee that they actually will be attractive.
Still, I have seen Biracials who were just average, to downright ugly. Rain Pryor and Whoopi’s daughter certainly would not be termed beautiful as an example.
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Now, in all honesty, it is impossible to objectively rate attractiveness… It is always subjective.
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FG,
As I read your post, I am laughing. People with your way of thinking say and think these things and then wonder why you don’t fit in.
Do you honestly think that is true?
Here’s my assessment. Simliar to what I’ve always said about Halle Berry. Biracial people at some point was given this label and it has stuck. Similar to blondes were given the label of being more desirable and it stuck. We all know that blondes are no more beautiful than others just as biracial kids, men, women are no more beautiful.
See what I mean about how some have a superiority complex?
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@ islandgirl
“Uhhhh….. yeah. Actually, brags about everything. I’m sorry, but I cannot stand people who are arrogant and who think that they are better than others. There is nothing wrong with being confident and appreciating what GOD gave you, but people who look down on others – not cool.”
I think I know who you are talking about….She is a “biracial” that is about 80% white…
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@ Mayhue
“Models are the same-in fact the trend has layaways been very dark, racially unambiguous Black models. Again how are Biracials over representative in the media and of beauty standards?”
Yes the modeling world LOVES to pick racial “pure” black women over biracials…Tyra Banks said it on ANTM one time, fashion designers like people that are very distinct racial traits of their races. That’s why black models like Oluchi and Alek Wek are so popular.
@FG
Merely stating that biracials are more attractive doesnt make it true. I think I had this discussion with islandgirl. Biracials are perceived to be more attractive because
Most people do not encounter them often enough to gauge their attractiveness so they go by the Alica Keys, Halle Berry’s, and Boris Kudjoe’s they see on TV.
The sample size isnt large enough to get an accurate picture. There is nothing wrong with preferring biracial beauty over all others, but lets not try to pass opinion off as fact.
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Where is this overrepresentation of biracial black/white in the media?
I agree; I think he was comparing it to their percentage in the population.
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Boris is biracial?
Ooh, right, now I remember Abagond’s post. And still wonder when we’ll see more of “grogeous men” posts!
I agree with Y and islandigrl: it is subjective, not just in a way it’s not really possible to be objective when it comes to beauty- it is also biased in so many ways. It goes with propaganda and set standards of beauty.
I don’t think it’s possible to say “biracials are ugly” (or beautiful) because I never met one and I only know of a few.. It’s not enough. If nothing else, there’s no such thing as beautiful/ugly ethnic group: all groups have their attractive, average and ugly people, AND it all depends on who is looking.
Now, I understand you want to feel good about yourself FG, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you are proud to be biracial, be proud. But if you are attractive (or not) it has nothing to do with your biracial status.
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Y,
I think that you’re thinking of the right person. Like I said to you on another post, I think this person was before your time.
Also, that’s a very good perspective. There just isn’t enough to get a true gage. And the one’s that are visible are so via tv. I am standing by my statment that this stereotype is untrue because I live in an area that is heavily populated with bm/ww couples and their children (rural midwest town). They look like everyday people.
Alicia Keys, HB and Kudjoe are expectional in appearance. But so are Sanna Lathan, Libke (the Ethiopian model) and Tyson Beckford.
I also remember watching that Tyra show where she said that the Fashion industry loves pure raced models. There are very few actual biracial models, in high fashion anyway.
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“Now, I understand you want to feel good about yourself FG, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you are proud to be biracial, be proud. But if you are attractive (or not) it has nothing to do with your biracial status.”
Very well put.
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“Now, I understand you want to feel good about yourself FG, and there’s nothing wrong with that. If you are proud to be biracial, be proud. But if you are attractive (or not) it has nothing to do with your biracial status.”
Very well stated.
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I thought Tyson Beckford was mixed.
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Let’s get some things straight.
First, defense or advocacy of one’s racial group is the norm. Black people do it. Asian people do. White people do it (though in a more subtle fashion these days). So there’s nothing wrong with me defending mixed people or pointing to their positive qualities. I guess some would label this “colorism”, but this charge can only make sense in the context of American society (uniquely among all the world’s countries) slapping all black-white biracials with a pseudo-black status that doesn’t actually reflect social reality.
Second, the only reason people take offense at biracials pointing up the group’s positive qualities is that these claims are credible. If we were really thought to be ugly, people would just laugh off our claims of being attractive.
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All of us are mixed to a degree and I think he may highlight his distant ancestory to appear more exotic. I am pretty sure that both of his parents are black.
A lot of black people have is almond shaped eyes.
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Y,
Merely stating that biracials are more attractive doesnt make it true. I think I had this discussion with islandgirl. Biracials are perceived to be more attractive because
Most people do not encounter them often enough to gauge their attractiveness so they go by the Alica Keys, Halle Berry’s, and Boris Kudjoe’s they see on TV.
This is my theory as well. People aren’t generally exposed to many black/white biracials so it gives them a skewed view as most of what they see comes from the media. But neither A. Keys or Halle Berry looked as good as they do now without the nose jobs.
The sample size isnt large enough to get an accurate picture. There is nothing wrong with preferring biracial beauty over all others, but lets not try to pass opinion off as fact.
Yes, this is all opinion. If I said I think Jay-Z is more attractive than Denzel Washington (which I do), many people would disagree. Studies can not measure something as subjective as how attractive a person is. Now studies on facial symmetry and the like are actually measuring something concrete.
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Second, the only reason people take offense at biracials pointing up the group’s positive qualities is that these claims are credible. If we were really thought to be ugly, people would just laugh off our claims of being attractive.
FG, obviously you didn’t read my previous post. I am laughing it off, because it is simply untrue. It’s just like saying most blonds are more attractive. Where is the evidence?
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FG,
First, defense or advocacy of one’s racial group is the norm. Black people do it. Asian people do. White people do it (though in a more subtle fashion these days). So there’s nothing wrong with me defending mixed people or pointing to their positive qualities.
But is presenting credulous studies the norm? Hmmm. Maybe so, if we look at the white racists on this blog.
Second, the only reason people take offense at biracials pointing up the group’s positive qualities is that these claims are credible.
Lol. They are not.
If we were really thought to be ugly, people would just laugh off our claims of being attractive.
Oh, I was laughing when you presented that study (and at islandgirl’s Howard Stern comment). Because I’ve known biracials that seemed to get the worst of the races they are composed of. But I don’t want to put biracials down by saying they are unattractive, because I don’t think they are any more or less than other groups of people.
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@ Mira
Tyson is like 1/8 Asian or something…He is mixed in the sense that he has a non-black ancestor but he isnt so mixed that it would “count”….Same with Naomi, apparently her dad was 1/4 Chinese.
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@ Natasha W
“Because I’ve known biracials that seemed to get the worst of the races they are composed of.”
Funny you mentioned that. I have heard people say “biracials get the best of both worlds” without being questioned. Which is fine, that is their opinion, but when I ask “Isnt it possible to get the worst of both worlds” people get upset.
Anyways that line of reasoning is problematic because what racial characteristics are considered “better” or “worse”?
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FG,
Now you’re just being childish. It’s like you’re basically saying we’re all jealous of you or biracial people.
Calm down. Nobody (as far as I can tell) is attacking biracials or claim they’re ugly. We’re just saying someone’s biracial status doesn’t say anything about person’s physical attractiveness, despite the stereotype. Now let me ask you, would you assume a biracial girl is more attractive than white or black or Asian… without seeing her picture? If you would choose that girl based on expected similar experiences (both being biracials) or similar social reason, ok. But please don’t tell me you would assume biracial girl is the prettiest without even seeing her. It makes no sense.
Now please put “blonde” instead of “biracial” to see how silly it sounds. There are many unattractive blondes, despite the fact they are seen as the most attractive.
islandigrl,
I had no idea about Tyson, it was just my observation- and I am very bad at guessing people’s race. I thought Miley Cyrus was par Asian. I honestly don’t know why I thought Tyson was mixed, and yes, I thought he was part Asian. It’s not just the eyes. There are many black people with almond shaped eyes, true. And even whites. My eyes looked pretty Asian when I was a kid.
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Y,
Anyways that line of reasoning is problematic because what racial characteristics are considered “better” or “worse”?
I meant in a way that their features do not go well together; they are not proportioned. When you take two races that have very different features and mix them together, the results can come out oddly. Or beautifully.
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It’s the thin line between “strange” and “exotic”, I think. But in any case, what I consider strange you can consider beautiful and there you go.
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Mira, right. There is a very thin line. I’m not putting biracials down. My children will in all likelihood be biracial. But if they are goodlooking, I can only blame the great looks of my SO. 🙂
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Your children will look like you and their father. Of course they have more chances of being attractive if you two are, but it’s always like that. Also, the whole idea of children attractiveness is horrible to me, because all kids are beautiful. Not all grown ups are, though. 😛
Still, I can’t stop thinking that FG is trying to make himself feel better- and there’s nothing wrong in being biracial and nobody is preventing him to be proud of who he is.
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Mira,
You are onto something when you mentioned “sight unseen”. I’ve heard some guys who are being set up, when they hear that the lady is biracial, they are satisfied.
My children will probably be biracial as well and I have absolutely nothing against it. What I loathe is the superior mindset of some.
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islandgirl,
“What I loathe is the superior mindset of some.”
Same. I wonder where this mindset comes from? It’s very unsavory and downright laughable. I don’t think I’ve seen biracials be this arrogant in real life. So I’ll chalk it up to an “internetz” thing.
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@ Natasha W
“I meant in a way that their features do not go well together; they are not proportioned. When you take two races that have very different features and mix them together, the results can come out oddly. Or beautifully.”
True True
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“Still, I can’t stop thinking that FG is trying to make himself feel better- and there’s nothing wrong in being biracial and nobody is preventing him to be proud of who he is.”
Actually, I’m just trying to defend my people. You and others often make belittling and dismissive comments on this blog about the identity, experience, motivations, and needs of mixed race people. This reflects prejudice. Whenever prejudice is voiced, the most effective response is to make countervailing statements about the positive qualities of the group under attack.
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@ Islandgirl
“I think that you’re thinking of the right person. Like I said to you on another post, I think this person was before your time.”
Yes she was but I am familiar with her comments. I do believe she stopped commenting around the same time I started visiting this blog. I have read most of the comments on the “Black women that White Men Like”, “Colourism”, and other posts that this individual has frequented…The giveaway was the statement about her being a devoted wife and mother…
Anyways you get the picture and I, like you, see the self-aggrandizement in her posts.
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FG,
Actually, I’m just trying to defend my people.
I don’t know about this “my people” mentality. Thad and Mira might be correct in that ethnic pride can become a bad thing. I mean, you’re not actually related nor come from the same place as the myriad biracial people.
You and others often make belittling and dismissive comments on this blog about the identity, experience, motivations, and needs of mixed race people.
Who does? Quotes please (particularly from outside of this post, because I feel any dismissiveness was in reaction to your comments)? I think you’re projecting your anger/hurt from others on to the commenters on this blog. I’ve never seen a mass attack on biracial people on this blog. In fact, the idea seems a bit delusional/paranoid on your part, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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“I don’t know about this “my people” mentality. Thad and Mira might be correct in that ethnic pride can become a bad thing. I mean, you’re not actually related nor come from the same place as the myriad biracial people.”
Groups are often formed by shared experience.
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FG, do you honestly believe you have more in common with a hapa from Tokyo than you do with a fellow Southerner? Or is it about equal?
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“G, do you honestly believe you have more in common with a hapa from Tokyo than you do with a fellow Southerner? Or is it about equal?”
I’m talking about American black-white biracials here. I think you know that.
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FG,
I’m talking about American black-white biracials here. I think you know that.
No, I didn’t know that. You said “mixed race people.” That could be a black-white biracial from the US, a black-Filipina from the UK, etc. Plenty of mixed race people all over the world.
So then, do you have more in common with a black-white biracial in NYC or San Francisco than you do with a monoracial black/white from the South? Is it equal? Surely, you have many things in common with both.
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I finally figured out who it is! (Yea, I know I’m late :-P)
FG, I agree with Natasha–you seem to see “your people” as “light-skinned/racially ambiguous, ‘White acting’ Black/White mixes”. That’s a far cry from “biracials” in general. And since you are very quick to point out your “tragic mulatto” status, there seems to be a good deal of intra-group colorism in your point of view. How would you/do you relate to biracials who look monoracial and are OK with that? I notice many “pro-biracial” people only identify with other light-skinned biracials (which doesn’t make sense, since light-skinned and biracial are not the same thing), while rejecting darker-skinned biracials (don’t they count?) and light-skinned Blacks (who often look phenotypically identical to the light-skinned biracials).
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Y,
I didn’t think about you going back and reading previous posts. Yes, you are thinking of the right person. I’ve never encountered that type of person IRL, so I was quite surprised by her comments. But I guess you can create a Barbie dreamworld on the internet. No one will know any better.
FG,
What are you defending your people from? The only “negative” comments from my view are ones that oppose biracials or any group of being superior. And we’re also expressing that biracials don’t hold the patent on beauty. But beauty comes in all races.
If you oppose that, then you have issues.
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“FG, I agree with Natasha–you seem to see “your people” as “light-skinned/racially ambiguous, ‘White acting’ Black/White mixes”. That’s a far cry from “biracials” in general.”
I think of all black-white biracials as my people. The type of biracial people you describe, though, typically have more issues with being biracial.
“And since you are very quick to point out your “tragic mulatto” status, there seems to be a good deal of intra-group colorism in your point of view.”
I don’t think I’ve ever referred to myself as that. I’ve enjoyed a large number of social advantages that have prevented me from falling into such a condition. However, from evidence and anecdote, it does seem like some biracials suffer from social alienation.
“And since you are very quick to point out your “tragic mulatto” status, there seems to be a good deal of intra-group colorism in your point of view.”
Ah, typical tactic. You ignore “colorism” practiced against mixed people by monoracials and then accuse mixed people of engaging in it on a large scale themselves.
“How would you/do you relate to biracials who look monoracial and are OK with that? I notice many “pro-biracial” people only identify with other light-skinned biracials (which doesn’t make sense, since light-skinned and biracial are not the same thing), while rejecting darker-skinned biracials (don’t they count?) and light-skinned Blacks (who often look phenotypically identical to the light-skinned biracials).”
I haven’t noticed that myself. The American biracial identity is for the most part based on the experience of growing up with parents of different races. Having a racially ambiguous appearance is another layer on top of that, but the first experience is regarded by most biracials as the primary one.
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@FG
Actually, I’m just trying to defend my people. You and others often make belittling and dismissive comments on this blog about the identity, experience, motivations, and needs of mixed race people.
Quotes? I want to see which of my comments you consider dismissive.
I support mixed relationships of all kinds, FG. My husband and I are mixed. I support interracial relationships and biracial (mixed race) people. Unlike many Americans, I actually see the difference between black and mixed (not that seeing biracials as black is bad per se, but it’s not part of my cultural constructs).
All I said is that I don’t believe biracials, as a group, are necessarily more attractive than monoracials- that does not make any sense, even if you go with egzogamy theory.
Plus, Jasmin made a good point: do you consider all black/white biracials as “your people”? And is light skinned monoracial black person, who is phenotypically similar to biracial person, one of “your” people?
This reflects prejudice. Whenever prejudice is voiced, the most effective response is to make countervailing statements about the positive qualities of the group under attack.
What prejudice? Prejudice towards… ?
@Natasha W
I don’t know about this “my people” mentality. Thad and Mira might be correct in that ethnic pride can become a bad thing.
I don’t know about Thad, but the more you learn about anthropology, the more you realize how culture is shaped. So when you learn how collective identities are shaped, often forced, often constructed out of nothing, you stop seeing them as “truth” and more of a social construct. Those things prevent me from truly accepting them for myself- but I understand when people do that, and it’s nothing wrong with it per se. Some people claim ethnic/national identity is the strongest collective identity a person can have. So you have to respect that.
Also, yes, I did see ethnic pride gone mad in my part of the world so I am very cautious about it. Plus, being mixed ethnically, I try my best not to take sides and not to believe anyone’s myths. But like I said, that’s just me and my personal reasons.
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“I support mixed relationships of all kinds, FG. My husband and I are mixed. I support interracial relationships and biracial (mixed race) people. Unlike many Americans, I actually see the difference between black and mixed (not that seeing biracials as black is bad per se, but it’s not part of my cultural constructs).”
I disagree with the assessment that mixed race status is not recognized. It is, on the interpersonal level. However, official categorization procedures informed by the One Drop Rule are used to suppress social equality for mixed race people.
“All I said is that I don’t believe biracials, as a group, are necessarily more attractive than monoracials- that does not make any sense, even if you go with egzogamy theory.”
The empirical evidence supports the contention. Who can say why this pattern exists?
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FG,
The empirical evidence supports the contention. Who can say why this pattern exists?
Empirical evidence? Where? You’re going to get me into “bio teacher” mode in two seconds… but I don’t want to derail this topic and annoy abagond.
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What empirical evidence? You offered 1 (one) study. That is not enough to have any scientific value.
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“What empirical evidence? You offered 1 (one) study. That is not enough to have any scientific value.”
Yes it is.
Anyway, I shouldn’t have brought the study up. I’m just a bit upset over the callous and bigoted attitudes expressed here and wanted to touch a nerve. It worked.
I’m done with this site for real. Bye, bye.
FG
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FG,
Yes it is.
Lol, you can’t just say it is and make it so.
Not to mention that one study was highly unscientific.
Anyway, I shouldn’t have brought the study up. I’m just a bit upset over the callous and bigoted attitudes expressed here
Again, what “callous and bigoted attitudes?” You have yet to present any quotes that show this, which makes me believe you have none. The only commenter that has expressed callousness and bigotry so far is you. You came into the discussion with a chip on your shoulder, ready to go off at anyone who disagreed with you. Your issue isn’t with us, it’s against some system you feel oppresses biracial people.
and wanted to touch a nerve. It worked.
Oh, sure. The old standby — “If my points are shut down left and right, I’ll just say I was trolling to get a rise.” Okay, then.
I’m done with this site for real. Bye, bye.
So you’re just going to quit the blog because people disagree with you? Exactly what kind of reactions were you expecting with your approach? You can’t strong-arm people into agreeing with whatever you say.
Anyway, see you around.
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Oh no Frustrated Guy, don’t go, I actually enjoy reading about your side of the biracial experience 😦
Geez people, it feels a little like he’s being browbeaten into not legitimately feeling what he’s entitled to feel.
On another note, about this phantom ‘biracial who boasts a lot’ I wonder how she would feel if she’s reading this and her experience is being discussed this way. I think most people on here with half a brain can deduce who it is.
I cringed a bit when it came up, its like being in high school when people are talking about you but won’t come out and say it to your face.
Just saying…
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MerriMay,
Geez people, it feels a little like he’s being browbeaten into not legitimately feeling what he’s entitled to feel.
Honestly, I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion without seeing that he is the one that is browbeating other commenters.
He can feel whatever he wants, but he can’t expect us to simply accept whatever he says. If he can’t deal with a disagreement in an online discussion, then what can we do? We’re not his mother to coddle him.
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Merrimay,
No, I didn’t assume that everyone would know who I was referring to. Only a select few who have been on this blog a while.
And no, this is not like high school because I’ve discussed her arrogance with her on another post. I have not said anything that I have or will not say around her.
If you are going to degrade people with your superior views, you have to expect people to oppose them.
She’s not totally innocent as she’s said some terrible things about me, including insulting my intelligence (using a word and then telling me to look it up) and questioning my love for GOD.
My original comment was in suggestions, suggesting a post on biracial thinking. I gave an example and shared that this person commented on this blog. My point was, on this blog, she is black and has struggles as a black woman. But on another blog, she is a biracial who is above monoracials in appearance, dating options and life experiences.
Merrimay, I wouldn’t feel too bad for this person. Just sayin…
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Okay ladies I have another question. It seems in America that bi racial children tend to consider themselves black I don’t have a %, but it seems that way to me. How does this effect the bonding between them and the white parent? If they consider themselves black, they accept black culture, and they look more black than white what is the relationship like?
I have been told I look like my father and act like my father, and we have always had slimier interests and experiences and hobbies, and we have always had a great relationship because of that. I am worried that there would be a small barrier there, or that he/she may not except my side of the family. Obviously not all bi racial people feel this way, FG is a good example, but for me at least it is a legitimate worry. I also know that I could marry a white women and have similar problems, but I don’t think they would be as pronounced, or I could have a child with down syndrome or some other medical problem, but that is out of my hands.
I have 2 cousins that are bi racial and they seem alienate the white side of there family, if I were a white parent I think this would upset me a little bit almost as if my side of the family is not good enough. Please try not to flame me too badly, this is legitimate concern for me.
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@Islandgirl
Fair enough, I’m not aware of that particular dialogue between you two, whether it ended on a good note or not.
You clearly know more about it than I do.
I presumed from the cloak and dagger surrounding her name, that you two hadn’t hashed it out, and chose this particular topic to bring up earlier issues. If that was the case I’d imagine it being something worth addressing and drawing a line under, with both parties involved.
I don’t have the benefit of having read what transpired between you two so I’ll refrain from commenting further on the matter. It’s getting off topic anyway.
Thanks for clarifying.
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*both parties involved present.* I meant to say
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Ó Dochartaigh, I will try to answer your questions on the post “biracial,” as it’s getting a bit off-topic here.
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You ignore “colorism” practiced against mixed people by monoracials
FG,
No I’m not ignoring it, I just disagree that monoracials practice colorism against biracials specifically. One’s coloring doesn’t say anything about his/her racial makeup, so it makes no sense to say someone practices colorism (which is based on phenotype) against someone biracial, because that’s genetic. Again, you are focusing on light-skinned biracials, when not all biracials are light-skinned (though I think that goes without saying), and the colorist focus is on the skin color, not the unknown racial background.
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I finally figured out who it is! (Yea, I know I’m late )
FG, I agree with Natasha–you seem to see “your people” as “light-skinned/racially ambiguous, ‘White acting’ Black/White mixes”. That’s a far cry from “biracials” in general. And since you are very quick to point out your “tragic mulatto” status, there seems to be a good deal of intra-group colorism in your point of view. How would you/do you relate to biracials who look monoracial and are OK with that? I notice many “pro-biracial” people only identify with other light-skinned biracials (which doesn’t make sense, since light-skinned and biracial are not the same thing), while rejecting darker-skinned biracials (don’t they count?) and light-skinned Blacks (who often look phenotypically identical to the light-skinned biracials).
*****************************
Wow. I think that is the crux of the issue. From my personal experience, most white people hardly think of Black people at all, and when they do we are an undifferentiated mass—of people who all look the same, they aren’t able to tell who is light or who is mixed. The Black community certainly has been influenced in a negative way in what we as a community find beautiful, even though we have been culturally isolated and segregated for many years. Still, we often tell each other what is beautiful, at least in America and it circulates around skin, hair, and thinner features, even though traditionally a larger frame used to be valued. As siddity stated on another post, Bi-racials and light skinned Blacks were often seen as the epitome of what was beautiful in the Black community and they were the standard that women especially sought to live up to, not looked down upon. Bi-racials supposed historical oppression had nothing to do with Blacks keeping Bi-racials down, I mean how can that be when traditionally they were in a comfortable position socially; the problem as I see it, was often not being able to be completely accepted by whites.
So yes, this prism is intraracial and cannot be extrapolated as something that whites evaluate Bi-racials with. If anything when a White person finds out that the person is mixed, they are often shocked, which says that Whites don’t really pay attention to Black people, but because of our minority status we place more stock in them.
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“when a White person finds out that the person is mixed, they are often shocked, which says that Whites don’t really pay attention to Black people”
What attention do you want whites to pay to black people?
“but because of our minority status we place more stock in them.”
But we don’t place less stock in you because of your minority status.
I don’t disapprove of or place less stock in anyone because of their skin color, but being the type -A person I am I disapprove of people for not showing up to work on time, calling in sick, being overly annoying and not doing their job, failing to act like they don’t deserve the success they are achieving, complaining about the temp in the office while they wear short sleeves daily, being habitually sick when I know they work a second job at a bar and so on. I also am annoyed when people who are able bodied don’t take care of their possessions or their rented property – renting isn’t a license to abuse someone else’s investment. I disapprove of folks who fail to care for their children, parents and neighbors.
I have a long list of things I disapprove and will instantly revoke someone’s stock status, but being a person of color isn’t a criteria.
Why does the opinion of “white people” matter so much?
If you found out I am French, German and Scotch-Irish would you be shocked? These clans don’t care a whole lot for each other but they are me – mixed as mixed can be.
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@Mira:
Yup, you hit the nail on the head, Mira.
I keep hearing “the change begins with me,” but me marrying a black girl is not going to change anything. It is not going to make me anymore open minded of POC, I see them as 100% equal to me already. It is not going to change the people in my community they will continue to be prejudice regardless of who I marry. So really the only thing it will change is, when I have children they will be discriminated against. Which is something I do not want.
EXACTLY! What’s that saying again? If you’re not a part of the solution, you’re a part of the problem.
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leigh
So by your logic I would have to marry a black women and have bi racial children in order to no longer be “part of the problem?” Hmmm interesting point of view, I guess speaking out against racism and treating all people equal is just not enough these days. I have a lot of concerns about interracial marriage, that does not mean I am part of the problem.
Mira
“Do you like the current state of things?
No I do not.
“Do you think some things are unfair and you disagree with them?”
Absolutely
“Do you believe it would be better if things were different?”
Yes
“The problem here is not your realisation of the problem, but your wish to defend your white privilege instead of doing what you can, as an individual, to fight against it.”
I don’t want to defend white privilege, we should all have equal privilege in this life. I just said I wanted my children to have the same privilege as me, nothing more or less. Is that so wrong? What do I have to do as a individual to “fight against it?” Just because I am cautious about having bi racial children does not mean that I don’t want to fight against racism.
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“EXACTLY! What’s that saying again? If you’re not a part of the solution, you’re a part of the problem.”- Leigh204
Ah, reminds me of the argument our last president used against the Democrats/Liberals in the war on terror – If you aren’t against the terrorists you are with them…. such black and white statements are the lynchpins of the Republican party….
Now I get it.
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MerriMay,
I appreciate your acknowledgement that you don’t know enough about the situation to judge me or my comments. If you really would like to see cloak and daggers, go to her blog and see what she had to say about me, personally. Warning men to stay away from women like me, ect. I was merely commenting on her comments.
Before you take the defensive for someone, it is good to know both sides of the story.
When commenting, I probably should not have mentioned or alluded to her when pointing out how some (very few) in a group view themselves superior to another. And flip flop their views in accordance to which group that they are addressing.
Thanks for your concern and diplomacy, though. I think.
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OD,
C’mon now, that’s just silly. Leigh didn’t say “marry a Black woman, and be a racial ambassador!” (It wouldn’t make you one anyway; plenty of racist people are in interracial relationships.) She said that by not speaking out against the system, you are condoning the system. You said yourself that you like where you live, just not the racist aspects of it. Well if you don’t combat those racist aspects you might as well like them, because all you are doing is helping to keep them in place. Playing the whole “I love everybody!” card doesn’t defeat your own White privilege because it’s bigger than how you (the general you) interact with minorities. Side note, that’s a big fail of White people who try to get into the whole anti-racist thing–many fail to see how racism goes beyond hurt feelings and interpersonal interactions.
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@Jasmin
You said, ” Side note, that’s a big fail of White people who try to get into the whole anti-racist thing–many fail to see how racism goes beyond hurt feelings and interpersonal interactions.”
Do you think it is possible that Black Americans can be guilty of the very same? I’m just curious.
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@Jasimin,
I think the problem is we are defining the human condition in absolute terms: Black/White. Either/Or, etc… The same statement can be reworded to say, “Side note, that’s a big fail of (insert word, Black) people who try to get into the whole anti-racist thing–many fail to see how racism goes beyond hurt feelings and interpersonal interactions.”
In terms of Colourism, lets now insert the word (anti-colourist / for anti-racist) and follow with what you said, “many fail to see how ‘colourism’ goes beyond hurt feelings and interpersonal interactions.”
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ColorofLuv,
Yes, I’d say it’s possible, but unlikely for Black people to fail to see institutionalized racism, because they live it. Black people aren’t the ones saying, “Why can’t White people use the N-word?” because they realize that the word itself doesn’t matter. What matters is reinforcement of White supremacy–I could care less what name someone calls me. But I certainly care if that name means I’m going to be socially or economically disadvantaged.
What’s your point with colorism? Has someone argued that colorism doesn’t go beyond hurt feelings and personal interactions? I wrote a research paper on colorism last year, and the research I used made clear the social, economic and political impacts of colorism.
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@Jasmin,
awesome…. Thanks for your response.
Note that by “playing Devil’s advocate, I’m not necessarily the Devil.”
My main point with Colourism is that it exists on a global scale. In terms of this post: There are many biracials or light skinned Blacks who feel they are not included – or dare I say, “not good enough” to be considered part of the Black community. Monoracial Blacks who are perceived to be biracial often times have to go out of their way to prove their “Blackness”. (whatever that means) While Bi-racials who struggle with the same conflicts deal in more complex ways with a “multi-racial” family while still dealing with being Black.
I would be curious to know what your research has uncovered. (By the way, I want to thank you for reminding me that I have in some instances, been guilty of projecting my beliefs into certain situations rather than looking at them more objectively. )
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I agree that colorism is on a global scale, but I think a central conflict is that biracial and light-skinned Blacks often point the finger at the Black community, while those Blacks point the finger at White hegemony. I don’t presume to tell others what is important to them, but it seems disgenuous to me to only talk about Black-on-Black colorism while ignoring its origins. I think one could argue that socially, Blacks mete out the most effective (not necessarily the majority of) colorism. But institutionally, Whites do.
I have class in a minute, but I will dig up my paper and respond to you this afternoon.
I’m not sure how I reminded you (or what exactly I reminded you of), but we should all remember that no one looks at everything objectively, and that’s OK. The problem is generalizing our own experiences to others or projecting our perceived biases on them.
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I wonder if part of the alienation that some biracials and others experience arises because they perceive themselves to be different and/or create borders between themselves and other blacks?
I’ve seen the lightest and whitest of black people get along peacefully with other blacks; no problems. But they were also the types that never saw themselves as being fundamentally different from other blacks.
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@ Jasmin
First, I made the assumption that most of the commenters participating in this blog know me well enough to understand I am aware that Racism & Colourism have origins in Colonialism and resulting ‘White priviledge’.
May main point is that it goes beyond that. There has been a backlash that goes against this “ingrained cultural pattern of Colourism” that is the opposite. Therefore, I am simply trying to acknowledge the social “rift” within the Black community and bi-racials in that “one can be considered ‘NOT Black enough’.
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ColorofLuv,
Therefore, I am simply trying to acknowledge the social “rift” within the Black community and bi-racials in that “one can be considered ‘NOT Black enough’.
By what criteria are people being deemed “not black enough?” Color?
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@ Jasmin
” Side note, that’s a big fail of White people who try to get into the whole anti-racist thing–many fail to see how racism goes beyond hurt feelings and interpersonal interactions.”
Exactly! OD can marry whom ever, if he doesnt marry a woman of color that is his business. However I cant help but notice that him, and other ‘enlightened’ whites, want to get props for acknowledging how racism affects POC, but dont want to see the end of white privilege and dont see how white privilege affects them in NEGATIVE ways.
At the end of the day, the white people that ‘understand’ racism and dont care are just as bad as those who are blind to it.
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Yes “not black enough” by which standard?
Im 100% black and I was called oreo and wasnt seen as “black enough”. Biracials are not the only ones that fall prey to those taunts.
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“I wonder if part of the alienation that some biracials and others experience arises because they perceive themselves to be different and/or create borders between themselves and other blacks?
I’ve seen the lightest and whitest of black people get along peacefully with other blacks; no problems. But they were also the types that never saw themselves as being fundamentally different from other blacks.”
One has to ask why biracials are expected to identify as black in the first place. Mariah Carey and Jennifer Lopez are quite similar in ancestry and physical appearance, but only the former has been criticized for identifying as something other than monoracial black. The fact is that many mixed Latino immigrants are part black, especially those from the Caribbean. However, no one gives them a hard time for identifying differently.
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“I’ve seen the lightest and whitest of black people get along peacefully with other blacks; no problems. But they were also the types that never saw themselves as being fundamentally different from other blacks.”
Anti-mixed race commenters often claim that there are many non-biracial “blacks” who are phenotypically white. This is simply not true. I never come across individuals like this. Non-Hispanic Afro-descendents with a clear predominance of Euro-ancestry are a rarity in the US.
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^ I’m sure the bulk of them are first generation biracials.
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Again, take statements made by someone who claimed to have been subjected to a modern day brown paper bag test with a grain of salt.
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@Natasha W – you said,”By what criteria are people being deemed “not black enough?” Color?”
That is something I would like to know! I don’t think it is an easy question to answer.
Abagond sums up the question quite nicely by his comments in his original post. Paper bag, Dark skin vs. light skinned, etc…. ?”
If I TRY and answer that question: It would seem judgements are made as to, speech, education, types of activities, peers in addition to PHYSICAL appearance… (They’re acting White, etc…)
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FG,
One has to ask why biracials are expected to identify as black in the first place.
I don’t think anyone “expects” them to. It’s just that they are often assumed to be so, which causes many to end up identifying as such.
And identifying as biracial/mixed alone will not cause isolation, but constantly reminding people of this difference, in obvious and not so obvious ways, probably will. I mean, why would you want to be a part of a group you feel you have little in common with anyway?
Mariah Carey and Jennifer Lopez are quite similar in ancestry and physical appearance, but only the former has been criticized for identifying as something other than monoracial black.
I don’t think they look alike at all. Especially pre-Hollywood. Mariah was clearly biracial/mixed before, now she’s going more into the white/ambiguous realm.
The fact is that many mixed Latino immigrants are part black, especially those from the Caribbean. However, no one gives them a hard time for identifying differently.
Well, besides a good portion of Puerto Ricans like jennifer are mostly/all of Native and European descent, Hispanics have a separate culture from blacks. It would make sense that Jennifer identifies as Hispanic if that is her culture and background. You’re really comparing apples and oranges here; these two cases are not alike in the slightest.
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“If I TRY and answer that question: It would seem judgements are made as to, speech, education, types of activities, peers in addition to PHYSICAL appearance… (They’re acting White, etc…)”
I agree. I think people consider personality, speech, associations, ect. when determining the criteria as opposed to appearance.
Also, I don’t think white people notice various skin colors as much as people of color.
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“Well, besides a good portion of Puerto Ricans like jennifer are mostly/all of Native and European descent…”
Jennifer Lopez and many other Puerto Ricans are of African descent. Besides, almost all of the American biracials are “mostly” of European descent and good number have a predominance of Euro-ancestry.
“Hispanics have a separate culture from blacks. It would make sense that Jennifer identifies as Hispanic if that is her culture and background. You’re really comparing apples and oranges here; these two cases are not alike in the slightest.”
Biracials often subscribe to Euro-American culture.
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@FG – You said, “Anti-mixed race commenters often claim that there are many non-biracial “blacks” who are phenotypically white. This is simply not true. I never come across individuals like this. Non-Hispanic Afro-descendents with a clear predominance of Euro-ancestry are a rarity in the US.”
FG – there are in fact many non-biracial blacks (a.k.a monoracial blacks) that do have very light skin, phenotypically-stereotypcially White features… (I would say most have mixed ancestry, but come from solid Black families that do not have living “White” relatives considered as a part of the family. Therefore, they identify as Black.) For this reason, they can also feel the affects of Colourism.
For this reason, I make the distinction between bi-racials and monoracials in this thread. The family dynamics are a bit different. Imagine a person coming from a multi-racial family that looks “phenotypically” like a person from a non multi-racial family -a Black family. Their experiences may or may not be similar.
(as Abagond eluded to in his original post. Imagine a “Black”family -or multi-racial- from Louisiana, California, Michigan, Florida, rural Kentucky, etc… Each experience is going to be different.)
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FG,
Anti-mixed race commenters often claim that there are many non-biracial “blacks” who are phenotypically white. This is simply not true.
Okay. Let’s get this straight… don’t refer to me as “anti-mixed race” or make comparisons to me and anyone else. You don’t know me or my motivations. Your projections are becoming ridiculous. You’re like a petulant child who throws his blocks when he can’t get his way.
I never come across individuals like this. Non-Hispanic Afro-descendents with a clear predominance of Euro-ancestry are a rarity in the US.
Even though they are less common than brown-skinned blacks, lighter-skinned blacks are not that rare. They exist. I am one of them. My color is this:
My sister’s coloring is this:
Neither of us look of predominant Euro ancestry though, and we do not have any Euro ancestry. I don’t know when lighter-skinned became synonymous with European.
Again, take statements made by someone who claimed to have been subjected to a modern day brown paper bag test with a grain of salt.
You have yet to tell me how this is relevant? Do you think I am lying about this?
I know you can do better than ad homs and red herrings. Or maybe you can’t.
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FG,
Jennifer Lopez and many other Puerto Ricans are of African descent.
Most are not predominantly of African ancestry. I suggest you do some research on the history of Puerto Rico and modern-day Puerto Rico.
Biracials often subscribe to Euro-American culture.
I don’t know about that. Seems like another projection of yours. Besides, I don’t know what “Euro-American” culture is, and you probably don’t either.
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“Even though they are less common than brown-skinned blacks, lighter-skinned blacks are not that rare. They exist. I am one of them. My color is this:
My sister’s coloring is this:
http://images.starpulse.com/Photos/pv/Persia%20White-18.jpg”
It’s interesting you linked to pictures of two biracials to come up with your examples.
You’re partner referred to you as a “chocolate-covered white girl”, so I’m assuming your at least as dark as milk chocolate.
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Jasmin
“She said that by not speaking out against the system, you are condoning the system. You said yourself that you like where you live, just not the racist aspects of it. Well if you don’t combat those racist aspects you might as well like them.”
I tell racist people their views are wrong all the time. I went to high school with this kid, he was racist all the way through school. By the time we graduated he looked at me and said, “your right there should be no reason for me to dislike people because of their skin, it is wrong and I am going to try hard not judge people unfairly anymore.” Needless to say my jaw dropped to the floor, I had actually gotten through to him. So people saying I am part of the problem are mistaken, no one on this blog knows me, so to say I am part of the problem is a pretty big leap.
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FG,
It’s interesting you linked to pictures of two biracials to come up with your examples.
To prove the point that a monoracial can be the same complexion as a biracial. But I could have just as easily linked to Prince or Monica.
You’re partner referred to you as a “chocolate-covered white girl”, so I’m assuming your at least as dark as milk chocolate.
???
No, he never said that. You’re confusing me for someone else. Or making up things. Whichever.
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FG
I was wondering about those pictures, both women look like they are part white. Especially the one on the bottom, if I saw her walking down the street I would probably think she was Mediterranean.
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——————————————————————————–
@Islandgirl
I wasn’t taking anyone’s defense, just an observation(there’s a difference) that when you bring an unchallenged issue about an absent person to a topic( on a very public forum) read by a lot of people, obviously someone will pick up on it, as I did. I found it unnecessary, and no I don’t need to go to her blog, has nothing to do with me, nor has any bearing on this particular topic.
That sentiment changed however, when you opened it up for people to comment on, on THIS topic. You resolve it with said person and leave it there, not invite further speculation from other commenters. Once you’ve opened yourself up that way, you can’t then backpaddle that people shouldn’t rush to that person’s defense( which I should point out I wasn’t) Again unnecessary.
Just my 2 cents
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Ó Dochartaigh
I was wondering about those pictures, both women look like they are part white. Especially the one on the bottom, if I saw her walking down the street I would probably think she was Mediterranean.
Funny that, my sister looks very much like her, similar features, hair, etc. and is not part white. But then again, she is assumed to be biracial or mixed Hispanic. I think it’s the jet black hair.
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“and no I don’t need to go to her blog, has nothing to do with me.”
Why did you take it upon your self to comment either way, in that case?
And I wasn’t backpadding. My point is that you have nothing to say about the issue unless you know both sides.
You take defense to a situation when you are unwilling to be fair in your judgements to both parties. You judged me leaving her without any blame.
You’re correct, this is a public forum, therefore, nothing is unecessary and is open for discussion.
I would suggest that if something that I say bothers you that much, simply don’t read it. Especially if you don’t fully understand what you are talking about.
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OD,
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. If you say that you confront people with racist attitudes when you come across them, then why would racist attitudes factor into your decision about whom to marry? Wouldn’t you either a) not care what they think or b) “set them straight”, so to speak?
As an aside, I think you are operating off of a very simplistic definition of racism. If you know anything about White privilege (you seem to be avoiding it to me) then you know that saying “thinking bad things about Black people” is to racism what one can of hairspray is to global warming.
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*Especially if you don’t fully understand the situation.
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OD, you are so lucky to have these gorgeous ladies pulling your coatail….
isnt it cool ?
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ColorofLuv,
May main point is that it goes beyond that. There has been a backlash that goes against this “ingrained cultural pattern of Colourism” that is the opposite.
Huh?
Natasha,
I agree. I’ve met a grand total of 2 “tragic mulattos” in my lifetime (which shows how stupid the stereotype is) and both seemed to be angry that other Blacks didn’t recognize their “superior social status”. One girl goes to school with me–she said her mom is “African” (which is strange, because I’ve never heard a person of African ancestry not identify themselves by the specific country) and her dad is White–and she starts every conversation with “Well, I’m biracial…”, probably because no one notices (or cares). She seems to resent the fact that she looks “just Black”. It seems to suggest that the quintessential “tragic mulatto” takes out his/her frustrations on not being accepted as White on Blacks, because Blacks “cost” him/her a ticket into the club of White privilege. Notice how Black features are seen as diluting White ones, not the other way around–the underlying sentiment seems to be, “If you hadn’t told anyone I was Black, maybe I could’ve been one of them.” Which is silly, because Blacks claiming someone as Black isn’t what makes them non-White, White exclusion of anyone who looks more than “just” White did. If not, why is there no push by Whites to “claim” biracials as White? People say Obama is biracial, but who’s ever heard someone try to claim him as White?
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Jasmin
“then why would racist attitudes factor into your decision about whom to marry? Wouldn’t you either a) not care what they think or b) “set them straight”, so to speak?”
Marrying someone is not the problem with me, it is having bi racial children and how they are treated by the general white population that worries me. The other thing that concerns me is something you and Natasha commented on the Bi racial thread, is the denial that they are part white and the alienation of the white side of their family.
Paula Patton says, “I find [the term biracial] offensive. It’s a way for people to separate themselves from African-Americans….a way of saying ‘I’m better than that, I’m black because that’s the way the world sees me.”
This would really bother me if I had bi racial kids and this is how they felt, like the white side of their heritage doesn’t even matter. It is almost like bi racial people are saying I wish both my parents were black so I didn’t have to deal with this bi racial thing.
So there are many factors that concern me about me having a mixed family.
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BR
“OD, you are so lucky to have these gorgeous ladies pulling your coatail….”
“isnt it cool ?”
Well if this was a person to person conversation then it would definitely be a little more exciting, if only I could surround myself with this many open minded women in real life. That would be great.
Hey BR do you like Bluegrass?
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Ó Dochartaigh
“The other thing that concerns me is something you and Natasha commented on the Bi racial thread, is the denial that they are part white and the alienation of the white side of their family.”
Did I say that? I don’t think I did. None of the biracials I know, including my cousins, deny the white side of their family, even if they identify as black. If a person asks about their heritage, they will tell them.
“This would really bother me if I had bi racial kids and this is how they felt, like the white side of their heritage doesn’t even matter. It is almost like bi racial people are saying I wish both my parents were black so I didn’t have to deal with this bi racial thing.”
I don’t believe that was what she was getting at. It seems she meant that people saying they are mixed/biracial, many times is a way for them to distinguish themselves from “regular black” people. It’s not always for that reason, but it can be, and probably has been in her experience.
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Natasha
That paragraph came out wrong, that was not your statement or Jasmines. It was just my own observation from the few bi racial people I know.
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Just best all around not to bring old issues to a new topic, and present only your side of it. What does it achieve exactly? That way, there are no misunderstandings, especially when one puts themselves out there then takes issue when someone calls them on it.
I noticed this was on the back of FG’s biracial identity that she came up. Common ground, the racial ambiguity I mean.
How is it fair when you present only your side of it, that is what I find unnecessary. You only volunteered the nitty gritty stuff when I called you on it, didn’t seem forthcoming otherwise. Also I’d ask you don’t attach whatever residual agro from your fallout with her on me.
These were my observations purely based on what YOU chose to say about someone who is not here to defend herself, to unsuspecting readers who don’t know the history. Methinks that’s a little unbalanced, lopsided since it influences people against that person. Fair’s fair.
LOL, am done.
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“and both seemed to be angry that other Blacks didn’t recognize their “superior social status”. ”
That’s interesting. Never looked at it from that angle.
I’ve only known one “tragic mulatto” from school. I thought she was pefectly fine, but she was preoccupied and discouraged because her hair was a little more kinky (which looked fine, she just didn’t know how to care for it) and assimulating. She would go to tanning beds with her white friends, though she was already tanned.
It was sad to see her want somthing so much that would never be accessible to her. I hope that’s she’s grown into her identity since then.
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MerryMay,
I’m a reasonable person, but in this situation, agree to disagree. Your comments are not going to sway my point of view because I don’t agree with them. And I feel this is a little personal for you.
So, you are more than welcome not to read my comments from this point, as I won’t yours.
No hard feelings, thanks!
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Natasha
“None of the biracials I know, including my cousins, deny the white side of their family, even if they identify as black.”
To me identifying as black is a denial of their white side, just as identifying as white is a denial of their black side. They are both.
The whole tragic mulatto thing worries me as well, it seems many bi racial people get stuck in the middle, and with our society that would be a very difficult place to be. That is not something I could take lightly passing on to my children.
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I agree with Natasha that identifying as one side doesn’t require denial of the other–it has to do with culture. Minorities are raised as encultured, racialized beings, while Whites are raised as raceless individuals. When people talk about biracial people denying their White side, what exactly are they denying? Many White parents of biracial children don’t raise them to see Whiteness as significant, so it makes sense that they don’t. I wonder how many Black/Jewish or Black/1st or 2nd-generation Italians, etc. would be considered “denying their White side”?
I think Abagond hit it on the head when he said Blacks view a biracial child having a White parent as “an interesting fact”. Unless it goes beyond that (culturally), there’s really no reason for it to matter to other people. Genetic makeup does not determine cultural identification, and in the US it seems like White people are less interested in recognizing their cultural traditions than other groups, precisely (and ironically) because they’ve been enculturated to see themselves as individuals, not part of a group.
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OD forgive me for sounding narrow minded, but, Im not a big fan of bluegrass.
The things I love the most are :
Up tempo bop , Miles / Trane modal jazz, samba and all its variations, coco, maracatu,bloco Afro, gua gua co, rumba, mambo, cha cha cha, James Brown funk, rhythm and blues and all the great singers that means , break dance and hip hop, tap, lindy hop, sub sahara African dance and drumming,Indian tabla like Zakir Husein and his father Allah Rakah,Bartok and some other classical music, but not really an aficiondo, some calypso etc
I love dance, especialy Afro diasporic
Not that I love everything in those idioms, I have my favorite artists that mean a lot to me and others I dont like.
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Jasmin
So are you saying white parents should introduce more of their cultural traditions to their bi racial children? Would this effect how the children label themselves, or persuade them to identify both sides as equally important? My family has had a long line of Scots Irish men, that were raised with hunting, fishing, camping and mountain culture. I know it sounds hillbilly, but this is something that has been passed down for a long time in my family. It is important to me to pass it on to my son, do you thing this kind of influence would be a positive thing for a bi racial child, or just more confusing for them? I know that sounds silly but it is a honest question.
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That’s quite a selection, B.R. It’s good to see people who are open to such a variety.
I’m wondering if outwardly biracial and light-skinned monoracials share the same experiences, as most whites really can’t distinguish the two. To some degree, the same rejections of biracials are also shared with lighter skinned blacks.
I know on another post, Lynette (if I may use her name) mentioned issues she had with some because of her hair texture. And there have been other monoracials with issues because of skin color.
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Jasmin, you are spitting some serious knowledge on this thread!!!
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Most black Americans have some admixture of some kind, some multi-generationally, and they still profess not to know where it came from. Some just plain don’t know, and may not be aware of it. Some may be recent. Now, based upon these facts, a great majority of American blacks are technically biracial. With that in mind, now that you all have been informed of your biraciality, perhaps you would like to discuss the effects of this new found knowledge on you psyches? You can now join the anything but black club!
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Ó Dochartaigh,
There are some big obstacles to mixed race identity in the US.
First, the minority side often strongly oppose biracials identifying as such because they view it as a way of asserting superiority (never mind the fact that said minorities would feel offended if you were claim that one half of their family has nothing to do with them).
Second, whites tend not to vocally oppose people identifying as mixed race like minorities do, but I get the sense that they don’t recognize mixed ancestry unless the person in question is very close to being white.
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jasmin, you wrote:
Minorities are raised as encultured, racialized beings, while Whites are raised as raceless individuals.
If you believe what you wrote, then you should complain to your parents if your feelings about race bother you.
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FG
As a bi racial person which side do you feel more connected with, and why? Did it have anything to do with your parents, where you were raised, or acceptance from friends? If the questions are too personal you don’t have to answer.
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“As a bi racial person which side do you feel more connected with, and why? Did it have anything to do with your parents, where you were raised, or acceptance from friends? If the questions are too personal you don’t have to answer.”
Well my mom is white, I was raised in predominately white areas, and I look closer to white. I suppose all of those things have made me more oriented to the white side of things.
I do have fond memories of black culture from my childhood though; I was exposed to much southern tradition in those years. However, I don’t see much of a connection between these old ways and the modern black culture centered in the northern metropolises.
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@marie
Actually, you don’t.
Correct.
Spot on. People can talk all they want, but it’s their actions that speak louder than their words.
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Liegh
Except I never said I didn’t want white privilege to end. For some reason you just assume this.
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Liegh
2 days ago I wrote; “I genuinely believe them (POC) when they say white privilege effects them in a negative way.”
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@Ó Dochartaigh:
So you believe when POC say they are negatively affected by white privilege? And you don’t want to bring bi-racial children into this world because you don’t want them to suffer from prejudice and discrimination? Is that correct? Or am I making an assumption? If that’s the case, then you don’t have to worry about it. Carry on what you’re doing.
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My biracial son , at least right now, relates to his black side and black culture more than white culture.
Trying to influence him about culture was less of an issue than trying to get him have good values and not self destruct.
He just took from each side of his family, what he wanted about being influenced by his parents from differant races.
Of course, I am very influenced by black culture so , im sure he got some things from me, but, he doesnt take to up tempo bebop and Miles /Trane modal jazz , so, he really is filtering how he wants to.
He doesnt have much indian cultural influence, but, has this surface afinity (Im going to grow a mohawk hair cut and use some war paint, what do you think about that, dad ?”), since he does have a small part indian in him , from his mother.
But, there is probably lots of subconcious influence on him about what ever makes me have “white behaviour”…what ever that would be…he actualy gets more onry ass hole New York culture from me, even though I originaly was from Chicago. My New York asimilation is part of my demeanor and I think he picked up more on that than anything…..my New York anger (probably because he is on the receiving end a lot of times)….
His day to day life with his peers can influence him, but, he regects many of their tastes to find his own way.
It is his thing, and, he knows he is differant than both the races of his parents. He is very aware he is bi racial.
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Leigh
White privilege is what worries me about having bi racial children, and that is a bad thing. I just want my children to have the same privilege as me. That does not mean that I don’t want POC to also have this privilege, because I do. I just know that if my children are white they will be treated like equals, if I could give all people this equality I would, but obviously I can not.
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BR
Is being bi-racial as big of an issue in Brazil as it is in the States?
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NS,
WTF? Shut up.
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@Jasmin:
LOL! Straight to the point. I love it. 😉
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OD,
To answer your question, yes. Your kids would grow up knowing about Black culture of the region and Scots-Irish culture. Identifying as “Black” and “White” doesn’t mean anything if there’s nothing behind it.
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OD I cant say that I have an answer for that.Its not an on table , on the news discusion, but, when I left the States, I dont remember it being that either.
White privalege is as big if not bigger in Brazil than in the USA
I would say, I dont think people should worry if they have biracial kids , they will be affected by white privalege, or white or black prejudice.
I think biracial kids can find their way in the world like anyone else.
I think love over rules these things, a kid with love and a foundation from his/her parents will be able to cope with obsticles that come their way.
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@BR – I love my percussion too bro! Stick me in some of the smaller towns or on the streets in Salvador when that musical spirit manifests in all those wonderful combinations around Carnival or New Year!!! (I can do without the damn “trio eletricos”. (no thank you.)
As for “White Priviledge” in Brazil. I think that is a bit of a misnomer. As you know, 80% of the country is of mixed Black ancestry. Race & priviledge is most certainly defined differently. I still state that “priviledge” in Brazil is about Classism. (Who do you know? How big is your bank account?) Granted, historically – I would have defined Brazil more along the lines of “White Priviledge” as we do here in the U.S. I definitely see it in Brazil’s “elite”, but not the Middle Class. The middle class is a better reflection of the country.
My father-in-law opened a business, put his daughters (one my wife) through some good schools in Salvador. Two have great jobs now and the other is studying to be a Marine Biologist. (When I’ve talked with them about racism, it is more of a “class” issue than “color” issue. Then again, we’re talking Salvador.) Though I can say living in Niteroi/Rio de Janeiro, I didn’t see it much either – among the Middle Class.
@ O’ Dochartaigh – & Jasmin –
I would highly recommend trying to get to Brazil in some form of exchange program. Or, try studying there in some form – even if independently. I love Brazil.
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Since we’re discussing Colourism, Racism, Priviledge, Bi-Racial & now Brazil – Abagond had posted a wonderfully written article about all these topics in one, written by a Black Amercian Woman teaching English in Brazil.
GREAT, GREAT, GREAT, READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Thanks Abagond)
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/06/03/brazil-files-busy-being-foreign/
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ColorofLuv,
I’m graduating in the Fall, but my friend is studying in Sao Paulo next spring.
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@Jasmin –
Before venturing into the professional world. You may want to look at spending some time in Brazil. (Perhaps after your friend is established there, you could take advantage of the opportunity.) – just a thought.
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Lol, pay my student loans and I’ll think about it.
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Color, i agree, I dont love all the trio electricos. Im into the foclorico drumming and dancing there.
I dont know, Color, I see white privalege in big effect in Brazil.
All the things that people define as what makes white privalege coming out of slavery is in play here.
You say 80%, but, the elite can have 7 or 8 percent, and, heck 20 percent in itself is high enough to represent most of the elite.
You are making it seem that if your father and law can start a business and put his daughters through college, that it indicates there its less about white privalige and more about class?
Black Americans have a very visible upwardly mobile upper and upper middle class that can go to college, start business and be very succesful, but, that still doesnt mean white privalege doesnt exist.
What I get white privalige entails, among other things, is the out of the block disadvantages coming out of slavery (slavery itself is the start of it all anyway), that all black slaves from Brazil to Cuba to Jamaica , to the dominican Republic, Haiti, to Puerto Rico, etc etc have in common , that they didint have anything to work with at all, unlike immigrants who had networks and recources to just get to the places they went.
That factor alone, and how it affects black Brazilians means white privalege is seriously in effect.
Color, I just dont get how you dont perceive at all that Brazil is a white privaleged world. The TV is shamlessly , disgustingly, mostly white. Universities are mostly white, people who travel in airplanes and high society parties and clubs are mostely white.
I agree that there is a large mixed group of people in Brazil, but , in the black comunity in the USA , you see the same mixtue, Miami is seriously mixed, but, I asure you, I can travel on the aiflines and see white people that only may have a small amount of black or indian blood, and I can look in prisons and go to favelas and see high numbers of people who would definitly have predominantly black features .
White privalege is in serious effect in Brazil.
What I would agree with you is, I dont want Brazil to go through a black white devide like the States. I dont want it to be like the States.
But your “its class not race” is the call of the socialists and red flaggers and white nacionalists who dont want to face up to the reality that is plaguing Brazil as far as racial atitudes and effects of slavery and white privalage in Brazil.
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Jasmin, I tried to write Abagond to see if you wrote him to pass on the e mail for info , but, I didnt hear from anyone so, I guess it didnt go through. Im leery about putting my e mail out on a blog…
Im not in Sao Paulo anyway…
But, I hope your freind will find lost of good things in their studies down here.
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Colorofluv
I would love to visit Brazil, it has been on my list of places to visit since I was about 8 years old. There is also a Martial Art called Jiu Jitsu that I would like to study in Brazil. I can’t decide between Brazil or Japan. Japan would be a lot more expensive so I might have to wait till I have a little more cash, and see Brazil first.
I have heard from Brazilians that people seemed to focus more on class than race in Brazil. Of course there is the rich white elite that control the government and the media, but the average person does not seem as concerned about race. That is just what I have been told.
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OD jiu jitsu would be great to study in Brazil
OD ask a black Brazilian about race in Brazil
Brazil, while being super advanced in some areas of race and sensuality, is , on another leval , not far from the pre Julia stage in the States (Julia being the first prime time Tv show in the States featuring a black actress).
America didnt think too much of race around then also.
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Color, while your wife said she didnt experiance racism in Brazil, I wonder how whe feels about white world dominance of the TV world?
I wonder how she feels that in Bahia, three white women are the top female singers of Salvador, and , Carla Perez and two Sheilas , both white, are the top known dancers from there?
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@ B.R. –
Check out that link I provided above for an interesting take from a “Light skinned” Black Amercian Woman. (Also, don’t give your actual email. I already put myself out there “personally” with an actual picture of what I look like that is much bigger my avatar one. Its over on the Black Womens hair thread — lol — go figure.)
I agree with you on the disparity within Brazilian media and Television. If one were to watch Brazilian TV, they would think they are maybe in Spain, Italy or Germany. I will ask my wife what she thinks about that actually and let you know. Though, believe it or not, I have been the one pointing out “Colourism & Racism” to her. Like why she insists on straightening her hair when it is so beautiful naturally.)
About the singers: Not sure… I know she gets into all the classical music in Brazil. Sometimes I wonder if she is aware of it on a conscious level. If you read that article, the Black American female who is light skinned confesses she sometimes loses herself in Brazil as a “person of Color”.
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@ O’ Dochartaigh
Oddly enough, although Brazilians dominate Mixed Martial Arts, very few realize this is a result from the large JAPANESE influence in Brazil – having the largest number of Japanese outside of Japan. In addition, many more mixed/Brazilian Japanese, primarily in Sao Paulo.
This is where Jiu-Jitsu first started, and then the Brazilians made “Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu their own style.”
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@ B.R. – odd though how in contrast I don’t feel racial tensions -nor colourism to the degree I do here in the U.S. In Brazil, I am accepted unconditionally by everyone without giving Black/White a second thought. Here in the U.S. it is the opposite.
And then the irony:
Why is it that the U.S. is so much stronger in representing Black Americans and minority groups on TV, in magazines, in film than Brazil is? Even in modelling, you will notice this in Brazil.
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jasmin,
Apparently you do not believe what you write.
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Colorofluv
Bravo!!! I know the whole story of Martial arts in Brazil. I read somewhere that even a lot of Brazilians do not know what Jiu Jitsu is, or that it originally came from Japan.
Okay this comment was way off topic so I will stop now.
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BR
Yeah I really don’t know what race relations are like in Brazil, only what I have heard from white Brazilians. Which I’m sure is not entirely accurate.
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NS,
You write like one sentence as if it’s supposed to be poignant, when it really just makes no sense. You could have Formal Thought Disorder–good luck with that. And stop talking to me, don’t you remember that you are insignificant in adult conversations?
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BR & CoL,
1) No, I didn’t email him.
2) It sounds like what you (BR) and the article CoL linked are saying is that colorism has been shifted in Brazil by changing the racial categories. If “Blacks” are subject to colorism, and you change the “Black” category to include only the darkest people, then outwardly things will look better because a smaller group will receive the brunt of the discrimination. But that’s not a good thing, because it doesn’t actually condemn the discrimination itself, it just focuses it more directly on those of African descent. Kind of like a paper bag test–an arbitrary color line keeps you “safe” (from the brunt of colorism).
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Good point , Jasmin.
Just as I said about the word “moreno or morena” is a sliding word, as how people identify themselves, if they arnt more dark skin with curly hair , that gets played out in racial issues. And, exactly like what you said happens.
Color, I agree , it is just differant in Brazil.
And , Ive always said, Brazil has to find its way to deal with it. And, there are varous public service anouncements denouncing racism and saying people have to face that and not be racist , so, there is public ackowldegement and awareness. I find the nacionalists and white elite the most vocal about there is no racism and then the red flaggers charge in saying it is a class problem implying socialist measures are the only answer (that is their interest in not wanting to confront racism)
I just know a country like Brazil , that had the biggest slave trade in the Americas , and, abolished slavery in the late 1880’s, has huge issues about that, that play out in every day life and reek social havok.
Of course you can say it gets played out in class issues, but, that doesnt diminish the racial aspects and dychotomies that esixt about race.
I read the article and it was interesting, but, I think there are many things as an immigrant that she is in the process of discovering. Her feeling of being able to let go of her race, have as much to do with her being an immigrant to the country and not being hyper aware of certain dynamics.
My wife is very aware of these dynamics, and has been humiliated and treated very poorly in work situations when she was 12 until 19.
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Excuse me, Color, Ivete had a dna test and was proved to be 93 percent white. That is white, the other part was probably indian. She is more of a white Brazilian.
Margerette hardly represents the roots Bahian feeling, she is more Afro pop, although Eligibo is bloco Afro.
No , I disagree about the music business, its severly underrepresented by black culture.
You dont think the media and corps couldnt push some really powerful black talent playing black culture from Brazil?
The music industry is f ed up everywhere and rarly shows the real deal.
This notion the that who buys in the market dictates what gets pushed is false. The corps have a small amount of small minded people making desicians of what fancies their taste , to put millions of dollars behind an artist to shove him down our throats….sometimes , great talent gets a chance, most of the time it doesnt. I know geniuses that never got the real chance to show their talen.
You dont think there are hundreds of really talented black singers and dancers in Brazil? They sure dont get the shot.
I dont see how you can say the industry is less racist than regular Brazilian society.In the states, plenty of black talent gets over also, but, it has lots of racist issues plaguing it , especialy when you think of the 20’s 30’s 40’s and fifties, when hard core segragation was in effect. But there were still black stars, but, they never came close to the huge money the white stars made.
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There is also another aspect which should not be missed, with regard to Brazil and you can see this by way of the States.
Although there are countless musical performers who are Black in the US.
Blacks in fact do not ‘control’ or run the music industry. They can be characterised as the ‘worker ants’ and have been so since the days of Blues and Jazz, where so many famous artists have died penniless
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For sure, J, ive seen this close up in Brazil. Its just amazing how some people will try to exploit some of the folkloric groups I know. They just have no shame, like a snake that knows its going to bite someone…
Ill tell you Color, there are two times on Brazilian TV, when all of a sudden, they take you to various cities in Brazil, and show people celibrating incredible black culture , like , sambao, bloco afros, maracatus and others.And I mean it is mind blowing and wipes out the normal pop fare that usualy streams out of the media here.
Carnival, and, when the selction plays in the world cup. They start showing each city and the people gathered , beating the regional beats and dancing the dances, and it is nothing short of spectacular and way way way too short.
And then its over.
I remember the selection winning in 2002 ( I think), and globo came in to interveiw the team, and , globo wanted to make it globo world and put their Ivette Sangalo theme song over the whole thing as the sound track for globo world (nothing wrong with Ivette, she is a fantastic performer) but the team, that was mostly black, wanted to play some samba and pagode , with repique de mao, and pandeiros, and singing. They were trying to ignore globo, and globo was trying to super impose its globo Brazilian world all over everyone…but they were resisting…
That sums up a lot of the way it is about the music and black culture down here . The media tries to superimpose its narrow minded will on the people and make them think the media is the director of the culture…black Brazilian culture is way too powerful to be hidden, if you look for it, you will be doubly rewarded with the treasure you will find compared to the usual pop fare….(sertaneja universitario , or techno forro anyone?)
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@ Everybody prior to the Brazil Colourism topic
FG, Natasha, Jasmin, Merri & everyone:
Here is an article from the BBC about mixed race people having more success. (which personally, I find flawed) Nontheless, see it for yourself.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8618606.stm
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Have to agree ColorofLuv….
However, I am not sure as to the ‘WHY’ the research was undertaken as it relates to ‘Philosophy of Science’
In Wales (ie Cardiff) there are a lot of mixed race communities and they have been there longer than most. Or whether it is linked to the slow push to a bi-racial category, or some other factors at work
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Interesting, since most black people in America are really mixed race people…
Speaking of colorism, how was the xuxa melodies over axe music show of Claudia Leite ?
There was a report on it down here on TV, looked like a crowded room, I think I saw you, Color
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@ B.R.
keep in mind those were comments from my wife, an Afro-Brazilian from Bahia who has lived in Salvador her whole life. I just relayed them…
I’m with you on Globo. They run and control everything. Break up that monopoly. They got no competition.
My man, getting all “genetical” on me. LOL…. Just kidding. I wonder if Ivente Sangalo would stop straightening her hair, go to the beach for a couple days -if she would look “mullatinha”. Genetics is a funny thing. Compare Ivete to Ildi Silva who is 70% european. (Now imagine Ivete with her natural hair and slight tan.) Now compare the sambista from Beija Flor, Luiz Antnio Feliciano Marcondes. He is 67% European – Ildi 70%, yet they look nothing alike. He is more European than Black, but check out his pic:
(He is on the far right in the blue shirt)
As a White man in Brazil, moreover, a White Gringo – does that impact how you are treated by Brazilians. Do White Brazilians treat you differently than Black Brazilians? Is because you’re White or Gringo?
With me, as a White guy in Brazil, I am accepted by all Brazilians, but maybe that is because I’m not considered a Gringo.
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@ B.R. — my wife told me that damn Claudia Leite show was this coming Sunday. I would only be mad if I missed it because of the people and the food.
I’m going to double check. If a “GLOBO” camera crew comes by, I’ll be sure to give a shout out to you!!! LOL
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@ B.R. – link to Brazilian Day: Looks there will be some decent local music and “some mix” of afro-brasilian entertainment.
http://www.braziliandaymiami.info/inicio
Romero Brito (Artist for thos who don’t know) will be there, which is cool. BIG FAN!!!
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@ B.R. – link to Brazilian Day: Looks there will be some decent local music and “some mix” of afro-brasilian entertainment. (You may know some or the bands/artists personally? Some from New York, others Florida.)
http://www.braziliandaymiami.info/inicio
Romero Brito (Artist for thos who don’t know) will be there, which is cool. BIG FAN!!!
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CoL,
I find it flawed too, because there is no way to “look” mixed race. Seems obvious to me, but people keep missing it…
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Color, I wasnt trying to counter your wife, but , the Ivette DNA test was a big deal on the news and had her joking:
“eu sou muito decepcionada ” / “im very disapointed ”
Yes , I know about the Neghino do Beija Flor test, and, 67% white is differant than 93% of Ivette. Because the 7 percent of her non white part could also have part of that indian.
For me, she is a white looking Brazilian with obvious Portugues referances.
And Neghinhos look would get leave him out of certain social situations if he wasnt a celebrity.
Looks interesting , Brazilian day in Miami, I know who Luiz Caldes is.
Too bad my wife wasnt hired to dance, I bet she would fit in well, but, we just locked 2 dates in New York June 18th and 21.
Claudia Leite…Idont know man, she looks so self absorbed, but who am I to talk, Im really self absorved also….
Hard to answer your question, Color, Im a walking American flag with my red hair, white skin and blue eyes. And , I have had some ugly “go home gringo” bs hurled at me from some passing cars or buses more than a few times , and there are streaks or groups of people who are anti American.
In business, there is sometimes a lot of barriours to not give the gringo business
But, in general, Brazilians are a very open and charming people, but, Ive been here long enough to read between the lines.
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BR
Are you a Brazilian citizen? If so how? I didn’t think foreign countries handed out work visas for musicians. I know some countries it is extremely hard to get citizenship, unless you get married.
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OD I have a resident visa because Im married to a Brazilian woman and my son is a Brazilian and USA citizen (the USA sais you have a passport for two countries but Brazil sais you can)
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“Well, besides a good portion of Puerto Ricans like jennifer are mostly/all of Native and European descent, Hispanics have a separate culture from blacks. It would make sense that Jennifer identifies as Hispanic if that is her culture and background. You’re really comparing apples and oranges here; these two cases are not alike in the slightest.”
One-droppist militants want to make white-looking biracials feel isolated, put them in a corner. They want to convince these biracials and the rest of American society that they are nothing but freakish white-skinned “blacks” who “pass for white.” The fact is that there are already hundreds of thousands if not millions of black-white mixed people living in the US who have a recognized non-black identity. They tend to refer to themselves as Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans, and so forth. Anglo biracials would do well to build bridges with these groups.
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FG, you’re quoting something from how many days ago? Something hat you already responded to, as well?
Just stop responding to me. I won’t entertain your comments further; I’m not interested in your agenda. I have short patience for people who come across as hypocritical, close-minded, and overall, self-centered and infantile. Sorry, find someone who cares.
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*that
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With me, as a White guy in Brazil, I am accepted by all Brazilians, but maybe that is because I’m not considered a Gringo.
Ahn, the old gringo’s favorite myth.
Color, I lay dollars top donuts that in any conflict with a Brazilian, the very first thing out of their mouths is a statement disqualifying your opinion because you are a gringo.
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My comment is in moderation?
Abagond, “gringo” is NOT a racial epithet. See here, please:
http://bad.eserver.org/issues/2002/60/blanchette.html
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I think I caused some hard feelings with my post on the relative beauty of mixed kids. For the record, I don’t believe multiracials are inherently more attractive than monoracials. I think the results of these studies carried out in the US and Britain has much to do with the relative proportion of black-white mixes in the population. They are still rare in these places, so they often come off as exotic and beautiful. On the other hand, Latin America is awash in Adriana Lima- and Jennifer Lopez-types, but TV and modeling in this part of the world is dominated by the rare blue-eyed blondes, like Xuxa. It’s all about context.
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@ Thad –
I give you credit, now you’re thinking like a Brazilian. Gringo is not a racial epithet; however, go hang out in East L.A. and you will find that it is a racial slur. (But I digress, don’t get me started on the whole Chicano movement and if you’re Brazilian, you’re one of us and not really White argument. Most people in general just don’t have a clue.)
@ Thad –
You said: “Ahn, the old gringo’s favorite myth”
My response: Basically, it is not a myth since this is my personal lived experience. When I was dating my wife I would find myself in conversations with her bashing the United States, Bashing the government, bashing Hollywood, and Americans in general – and quite the opposite would happen, I would say, “HEY, I’M AMERICAN”. Her reply, “Sometimes I forget.”
I have been on the gringo side, but in general, most Brazilians don’t know I’m gringo unless I tell them.
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@ B.R.
I’m sorry to hear that you have had some bad experiences for being “gringo” in Brazil. Perhaps with me, having the look I had as younger man, I fit in more with the traditional Brazilian look. Back in 1987 I often had Brazilians upond discovering I was American proclaim in disbelief, “But you speak Portuguese! And you don’t have blond hair or blue eyes.”
By the way, didn’t hit Brazilian Day. Miami is flooded and it has been raining for almost two days.
As for your experiences in Brazil, I’m sure you’ve learned by now to tell the idiots “tomar no cou seu filho da puta.” I don’t like anybody dissin on my bro’s. That includes my American bro’s. In general, I just hate “haters”.
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@ B.R. – I’m intrigued by your situation. There are Brazilians who look like you. I’ve never seen no heard of anyone yelling at someone based on appearance in Brazil and assuming they were a gringo. (Obviously, if I am ignorant of this it is because it is true – I’ve never seen, nor heard this.)
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“For the record, I don’t believe multiracials are inherently more attractive than monoracials.”
FG,
I was kind of under that impression. Sorry for misunderstanding you.
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Well, its happened in Rio a couple of times and where I live now 3 or 4 times and at 9/11 , on a job I was the leader of a band at a venue in Recife , some a hole went into a stupid speil about how he loved bin laden and hated Americans (“but I love American girls”, you know that speil , right?)
Yes, I know what to tell them…
How does your wife feel about America now that she lives there? Not that she feels any differant from living there…
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She feels completely different now. She was pleasantly surprised. She still gets irritated by some of the misconceptions about Brazil, but by and large she has been embraced by mainstream America, and has in turn, embraced America. Black Americans see her as Black, Latinos accept her as ‘latina’ and Whites accept her too. (Oh, you’re Brazililan.) She has not felt any prejudice since being here. (Men in general, are all too eager to help her. I have a feeling this is due to the simple reason that she is exceptionally attractive.)
I still can’t get over the fact that you’ve had to deal with prejudice in Brazil for being a Gringo in such an overt way. I think I would have already cleaned a few clocks. I’ve had people try to come down on me as if “I actually was George W. Bush”. (as if Im’ head of the central office of complaints against the United States or something with a direct line to the White House) – LOL…
She and I would love to live in Brazil, preferrably Salvador. Unfortunately, we pay the bills with work here in Miami, so we’re trying to carve out andexistence here. At least she can go visit her family a little more conveniently on extended weekends. (8 hour direct flight from Miami which beats the hell out of hitting four different airports like we used to do from STL, arriving 24 hours later after beginning out trek.)
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I’m glad that you’ve posted on this issue since it is a big deal for many darkskinned Black women.
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One-droppist militants want to make white-looking biracials feel isolated, put them in a corner.
As far as I know, no one here is a one droppist. Having two fully black parents is what makes you black not one. Im sick of you pointing the finger at black people as if we make the rules. Why aren’t you arguing this point to white people on their websites? They are the ones who you need to convince. If white people wanted you to be white you would be and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If white folks wanted to get rid of the one drop rule they would. They are the ones with the power to do so. If white folks accept you, like you say they do, then whats the damn problem? Why are you so concerned about what blacks think? Get on with you’re life! Why spend so much time on a blog that basically deals with black issues. Youre not black remember?
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The comment above is for FG. And for the record Im not saying black/white biracials are not black at all. They’re just not ONLY black.
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“As far as I know, no one here is a one droppist.”
Yeah, right.
“Im sick of you pointing the finger at black people as if we make the rules.”
I’m only pointing the finger at people who promote this ideology.
“Why aren’t you arguing this point to white people on their websites? They are the ones who you need to convince. If white people wanted you to be white you would be and we wouldn’t be having this conversation.If white folks wanted to get rid of the one drop rule they would. They are the ones with the power to do so.”
First, I never said that I wanted “to be white.” You’re attributing false motives, as is often the case with discussions about mixed race people. Second, from what I and others have noticed, in concrete social settings white people generally don’t subscribe the one drop rule, that is, the idea that someone who doesn’t look black can really be black.
“If white folks accept you, like you say they do, then whats the damn problem? Why are you so concerned about what blacks think?”
Mixed people’s development of a stable and positive identity requires that the one-droppist political project, which seeks to arbitrarily redefine their social status, cease operation. Again, I’m not blaming an entire group for this phenomenon.
“Get on with you’re life! Why spend so much time on a blog that basically deals with black issues. ”
You’re right on this one.
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Second, from what I and others have noticed, in concrete social settings white people generally don’t subscribe the one drop rule, that is, the idea that someone who doesn’t look black can really be black.
Youre saying whites accept biracials who appear white but what about the biracials who have the same percentage of black white mixture but “look” just black. Why arent they accepted too by whites as not really black regardless of how they appear physically?
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I think biracials should identify with all sides of their family. It’s an insult to your parents and ancestors when you reject some of them.
There is no need for monoracial black people to try and force them to deny their parents or ancestors. White people are white, black people are black, biracials are biracial. People assess your race based on how you look or what they believe.
i saw this site because i wondered about animosity that dark black women seem to have towards light black/ biracial women.
it’s a pity.
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^ What about the animosity everyone seem to have for dark black women.
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“I see J. Lo, and all other Hispanics/Latinos, as their nationalities, i.e., Puerto Rican, probably because that’s how all of the people close to me identify.”
Actually, many Hispanics hold to a theory of mixed race identity known as La Raza Cosmica:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza_C%C3%B3smica
Many Latinos also play a prominent role in the American multiracial movement.
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* above is quote from Jasmine from the “Precious” post.
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FG,
There are two sides of this issue: the way you see yourself, and the way others see you.
You can identify as one thing and see yourself that way… But it’s not of much use to you if everybody else see you differently.
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“There are two sides of this issue: the way you see yourself, and the way others see you.
You can identify as one thing and see yourself that way… But it’s not of much use to you if everybody else see you differently.”
What are you referring to exactly? Jasmine’s opinions are those of a minority.
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What are you referring to exactly? Jasmine’s opinions are those of a minority.
I’m referring to the general problem with identification, any form of it (not just racial). I might identify myself as Yugoslavian but since nobody sees me that way (because the country doesn’t exist anymore) they’d laugh at me and call me delusional.
I read many of your posts and I understand you are very frustrated about the issue of biracials. I understand it’s a “close to home” issue for you and I understand your wish to identify the way you want (as biracial, right?) But nothing changes the fact it’s only half of the issue- you still have to face other people around you, and you can’t “make” them see you as biracial if that’s not how they see you.
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“But nothing changes the fact it’s only half of the issue- you still have to face other people around you, and you can’t “make” them see you as biracial if that’s not how they see you.”
It’s a political struggle. Most people support mixed race identity. A noisy minority of the population wants to persuade them to think differently however. The situation thus calls for activism.
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I’ve been an activist in my early days so I know you can’t achieve anything without a struggle. But a real struggle, not posting in a blog. If this issue is very important to you, and you claim there are others who think the same, go for it.
But still, in this particular case, I think you’ll have more troubles making whites see your point than the blacks. Just my opinion (and I might be wrong here).
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It’s a political struggle. Most people support mixed race identity. A noisy minority of the population wants to persuade them to think differently however. The situation thus calls for activism.
Here in lays the crux of the problem. Minority? Who would that be? If the majority sees you as biracial who cares about the rest that do not? Why waste energies persuading a “noisy” minority?
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But still, in this particular case, I think you’ll have more troubles making whites see your point than the blacks. Just my opinion (and I might be wrong here).
Thats the exact problem… Seriously speaking, if whites in America saw biracials as biracial and/or “white like them” this would be a non issue. But they dont so the biracials that get annoyed by whites calling them “black” or not white get mad and lash-out against black people who didnt create nor have a stake in enforcing the one-drop rule and racist racial nomenclature.
We have been down this road before.
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“But still, in this particular case, I think you’ll have more troubles making whites see your point than the blacks. Just my opinion (and I might be wrong here).”
Reading this blog and nothing else, you may get that impression, but I don’t think it’s at all accurate. There are many people of both race in support of mixed identity and some of both opposed. Most don’t think much about the issue because it doesn’t affect them.
However, if “society” (i.e. whites) were so uniformly set against biracial identification, why would people like Jasmine feel such a need to criticize it?
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FG,
What opinions? I said I’m talking about people I know, real people, not hypothetical ones. So you’d probably have a bad time of it telling the Puerto Rican/Mexican/Dominican/etc. people I know that “many Hispanics” have determined the right term they should use to call themselves.
How is this a political problem exactly? There are no “rights” biracials specifically miss out on–the institutional problems they face are the same as Blacks (or whatever non-White group they are perceived to be), and I still don’t get what “biracial” as an identity actually means. My kids won’t be biracial, they will be Black and Ashkenazi Jew. So their White side won’t give them something in common with the “regular” White side of other biracials who don’t think they have a specific cultural background to turn to, just as my boyfriend has something more concrete to link his Whiteness to than other “just plain White” folks.
Mira,
I think you make a good point. You can’t really change how other people see you–I guess you can “correct” them if you think they are mislabeling you, but it seems like it’d be really frustrating to give a bunch of people you don’t know that power over you, and I’m not sure what purpose it serves. Seems like those secure in themselves don’t care what other people think to the extent that they have no bearing on their daily lives.
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FG,
Learn how to spell.
When did I criticize biracial identification? (And I’m not White, so your comment doesn’t make much sense…?) I don’t care if people call themselves biracial, but I do think it’s futile, like Mira said to try to “make” people see you as something they don’t think you are. Plenty of “fat” people call themselves “thick”–good for them, but they can’t make other people think of them as “thick” instead of “fat”, and I don’t know why they’d bother trying. I think anyone who cares that much about the opinions of people they don’t know who have no bearing on their pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness have self-esteem issues above and beyond their personal label (biracial, thick, attractive, outgoing, whatever), but that’s their prerogative.
In general, I don’t see “biracial” as an identity in and of itself, but as shorthand for “I have 1 parent of X race and 1 parent of Y race”. On it’s own, “biracial” doesn’t tell me what someone’s genetic makeup is, and even given the assumption people often make that “biracial = Black + White”, it doesn’t tell me anything about the person’s appearance, cultural beliefs, upbringing or personality. When Abagond said it was at best “interesting fact”, he hit the nail on the head for me about the only conclusion I could come to just from knowing someone is “biracial”. I’d put it on par with me telling people I’m left-handed–no one cares unless they get to know me and I have some life experience or outlook specifically related to being left-handed.
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why can’t someone be both biracial and black??? I don’t get it…??? technically you’re two races anyway…why would you not be one or the other???
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I don’t care if people call themselves biracial, but I do think it’s futile, like Mira said to try to “make” people see you as something they don’t think you are.
It’s also futile to believe that you’re going to be seen as simply black. Colourism is a real issue.
In general, I don’t see “biracial” as an identity in and of itself, but as shorthand for “I have 1 parent of X race and 1 parent of Y race”.
Identity can be made out of literally anything: left-handedness, if you like.
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Jasmin,
Just to make this clear: I wasn’t implying the way others see you is the most important. However, those who care about these things must understand that it’s impossible to make (force?) people see you the way you want. Your “fat-thick” example was a good one.
Then again, Thad is right, you can make an identity out of anything, but for collective identities you need others. There are countries where “biracial” is a valid racial group just like black, white or any other. I guess US is not that country.
In general, I don’t see “biracial” as an identity in and of itself, but as shorthand for “I have 1 parent of X race and 1 parent of Y race”.
Well, that’s how I see biracial. But then again that’s how I see other races. To me, for example, the difference between Obama being black and being biracial is whether he has one white parent/grandparent or not. End of story. But then again, this view is influenced by my culture.
I read once on someone’s blog something along the lines of “race doesn’t exist as a biological fact; it’s just a social game we all agreed to play”.
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FG – I feel you and I understand. If only the world made as big of a deal in such a segregationist way for those Left Handed people and Right handed people as they do when it comes to the “appearance” and implied significance of such.
How do you think I felt when among black colleagues and friends in a derogatory conversation about White people. Hey, I’m White, I reminded them. In reply, “You but you’re not really White.” – ok, so what does that mean now? I’m Black enough for certain inclusion in a set environment, but normally I’m not, because I’m White? To me, this is the kind of “Colourism” I was trying to explain to Jasmin at one point. Light skinned Blacks or people who pass as White or another ethnicity because they may not be associated with “Blackness” as it is defined by the individual or group judging can be treated piss poor for not being “Black enough.” This does exist.
I think many biracials suffer this – especially the ones that pass for something other than Black. (Whatever that really means.)
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oops, I definitely need to proofread before posting.
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“I was trying to explain to Jasmin at one point. Light skinned Blacks or people who pass as White or another ethnicity because they may not be associated with “Blackness” as it is defined by the individual or group judging can be treated piss poor for not being “Black enough.” This does exist.”
See, not many people seem to understand that phrases like “pass for white” stigmatize light-skinned people of partial African descent. It makes them seem like impostors.
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“Then again, Thad is right, you can make an identity out of anything, but for collective identities you need others. There are countries where “biracial” is a valid racial group just like black, white or any other. I guess US is not that country.”
When I said that the identity choices of Hispanics are respected, I should have clarified that this includes only Hispanics living in the US. There are now attempts by Afrocentric militants and their allies to impose the ODR in Latin America (of all places):
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Whilst watching the clip it had me thinking of many things
This clip, if I have understood it correctly touches upon many things ‘Mulattos’, pardos and even ethnic tension between Blacks and ‘Indigenes’ in Brazil.
From my standpoint there are two (but I have added a third point frame of reference that one needs to deal with when addressing this issue of colourism, bi-racialism, ethnic pluaralism etc, followingthe link.
The first two has been alluded to by others here.
1. Individual identity – how an individual views him/herself and how they identify with their plurality??
2. Societal identity – how society in fact categories race?? For instance I can say I am a member of the ‘human race’ but that is not going to get me entry into the US, or anywhere else for that matter
3. Power identity – Who contols the socio-economic and political?? What has happened on a global level is that Whites have generically and generally created a ‘buffer ‘ system’, with ‘Whites’ at top, a group in between, lets call this ‘other’ (usually ‘bi-racials), and then the ‘masses’ at the bottom (usually Blacks).
When those who fall into the category of bi-racial and/or put themselves into that category, discuss the aforesaid. They usually will dicuss points 1 and 2, but the dynamics of 3 is often minimised and/or overlooked.
Hmmm!!!
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“3. Power identity – Who contols the socio-economic and political?? What has happened on a global level is that Whites have generically and generally created a ‘buffer ‘ system’, with ‘Whites’ at top, a group in between, lets call this ‘other’ (usually ‘bi-racials), and then the ‘masses’ at the bottom (usually Blacks). ”
Well, Obama controls the “political” and he’s biracial, so I guess this observation doesn’t hold 😉
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@ FG lol…. Yes, I’m proud America elected a Black president. But as all presidents go, they are puppets and the elite are pulling the strings.
Actually, J makes total sense here with number 3. The elites in most all cases are Whites. Sure, there are plenty of poor white people – even in the favelas in Brazil, but when you look at who is really in charge, its the White elites.
@ J – Colourism is much more complex in Brazil than you might think. It is easy to spot, but can be veiled if not hidden in many instances as well. Thad, B.R. and I have gone over this in detail. If I recall, Thad is suppose to be performing some study with his students. Thad any update?
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I think the question you should be asking is how many bi-racials as a GROUP as opposed to Obama an ‘individual’ (who although he may be bi-racial but may not be classified as such under US racial categories be that as it may) hold significant power??
Winks back…well really its a fly in my eye, but please do interpret it as a wink (he he he he)
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Thanks ColorofLuv,
You are correct that there are ‘poor whites’ too. I did not want to illustrate that point because I was trying to keep the analysis clear.
However, as you can see FG manged to confound me nevertheless he he he
I am aware that Colourism in Brazil is complex, but the thing I do not know is ‘how far the rabbit holes goes’??
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Thad,
I agree–I didn’t say (as Mira said) that how other people see you is more important, I just said you can’t really do anything about it. So I can always correct people about spelling my name wrong, and I’m within my rights to do so, but getting angry because they do so isn’t really going to benefit me in the long run, because there will probably never be a time when people assume my spelling is the “correct” one. Doesn’t mean I should change my name, but I’m not going to start a campaign advocating “Jasmin” as the legitimate spelling (in the US at least), because many of the other Jasmine/Jazmin/Jazzmin’s will disagree.
ColorofLuv,
When did you try to explain that? And how could you explain something to me I already know? Condescending much? When we had this conversation (for the umpteenth time), both Y and I noted that being called “not really Black” or “Oreo” isn’t unique to biracial people (newsflash: nothing is unique to biracial people other than the fact that they have 1 White parent and 1 Black parent, because it’s a matter of genetics, not culture) or light-skinned people. Maybe you don’t know this, because you are White (so let me do you a favor and explain :-P), but 9 times out of 10, an accusation of being White is based on cultural stereotypes, not phenotype. The vast majority of Black people are not light-skinned or biracial, yet a significant population, especially among the upper/middle class, get accused of “being White”. I don’t think it hurts more (or less) to have someone say you’re White because you “look White” vs. because you “act White”, so setting it up as a competition is pretty tacky, IMO.
J,
Good point on power. As the system is set up, biracial people are in an “other” category (meaning “non-White” in general) that has more power relative to Blacks. They are significantly more likely to get hired, be elected for public office, etc., but as Black candidates. That alone should be enough evidence to show that in general, Whites view biracial people as possibly “less Black” but never “not Black”. What Black people think doesn’t really matter on a societal level.
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P.S. I should have mentioned this only applies to “light-skinned” biracial candidates in the aggregate. Being biracial isn’t a plus if the person “looks Black”–it seems there has to be reasonable suspicion that they have non-Black ancestry.
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Round 12 … just kiddnig. Sorry if you thought I was being condescending. I think you should be familiar with me enough by now to know I generally try to avoid such things in my post. So, it wasn’t intentional. Didn’t mean to get you all riled up! lol
I understand everything you are saying. Dead on…
@ J – I have a feeling those doggone rabbit holes go so deep they may reach China. Honestly, I would go as far to say they run so deep, that even the racially conscious in Brazil are unable to identify them. Dare I say social-psychological conditioning to “not” see certain things?
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“I didn’t say that Paula Patton and J-Lo look alike. I said that there are Puerto Ricans, like J-Lo, who are part Black/part White (like Paula Patton) and can look like Paula or J-Lo.
Contrary to many LIES/ MYTHS, being a light/white skinned Puerto Rican (or other Latino group) does not mean you’re WHITE.”
The problem with the current official US classification system is that it doesn’t accommodate heavily admixed people like J-Lo. Sure, she is Puerto Rican or Hispanic, but ethnicity and race (as Americans understand it) are distinct. Many people here would claim she is “black”, but most Americans don’t see her that way because she does not have easily discerned African phenotypical characteristics. Our current racial nomenclature only creates confusion and identity crisis in this respect. I personally would describe her “race” and that of everyone else according to their individual traits. I wouldn’t say she’s white, because she doesn’t look anything close to German, Norwegian, or English. I wouldn’t say she’s black or Amerindian either, though she has hints of those ancestries. I would describe her as an olive-complexioned woman of tri-racial heritage.
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@FG
I hate classification systems in general. I’m White but feel I understand what it is like to be bi-racial because that is often how I was perceived in my youth and twenties (by Whites & Blacks)… My parents are both White, so in terms of coming from a home that is distinctly Black and White, I cannot say.
Its funny how people like to categorize. You’ll note that B.R. and myself were going back and forth with this because Phenotype is not necessarily a ‘racial indicator’. (myself as a case in point) J-Lo’s sister, Lynda Lopez looks 100% White to me. I find it interesting that all of this plays into peoples perceptions. You have a Brazilian like Ivete Sangalo who I would swear is ‘mulattinha’ but her genetic test revealed she is something like 95% European (she straightens her hair, but couldn’t find any pictures of her au natural.)
while the famous muscician Luiz Marcondes is 70% European
http://www.google.com.br/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mensagensvirtuais.xpg.com.br/celebridades/Neguinho_da_beija_flor.bmp&imgrefurl=http://www.mensagensvirtuais.xpg.com.br/aniversariantes.php%3Fid%3D2754_Neguinho_da_Beija-Flor&usg=__B883IvD9BbCdty1Xx7DMdfFF1o0=&h=343&w=300&sz=302&hl=pt-BR&start=9&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=r5ghC5SlJLc_gM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=105&prev=/images%3Fq%3DLuiz%2BAntnio%2BFeliciano%2BMarcondes%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dpt-BR%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4SKPB_enUS347US350%26tbs%3Disch:1
and then you have Ildi Santos who is 70% European and for the most who’s phenotype actually matches what the genetic test says.
I guess it is not such a far cry that 100% White guy from the U.S. could pass for bi-racial. The brazilians always said I had a “foot in Africa”, when I still had a full head of hair. Talk about Colourism, my wife is worried our kids will have “bad hair” because of me!!! Go figure… (and thus the obsession with ALL female Brazilians straightening their hair.)
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F G Nice youtube, and, it highlights that besides the black / white dynamic and black mixed with white , the native Indian dynamic, mixed with the black white dynamic is very much in play in Brazil.
Very interesting way he defines the origins of “mulato”
Brazil does have a huge population that is mixed with white , black and indian, and , they have many people that you could debate what they are.
But, there are huge parts of the elite , who are mostly white and look that way, and, a huge population that has predominantly African features.
For sure if this guy wants a movement to stand up for “pardo” and “caboclo”, he is welcome, but, it doesnt take anything away that there should be a movement to look out for the rights of black Brazilians.
They can clash all they want, but , it wont do any good getting the rights from the white elite.
I absolutly dont think Brazil should follow the American black civil rights example, they have to find out the way that works the best for them. But, no matter what, they need to face what slavery has done to the country.
They have to face that directly and not muddle it up with everyone elses rights or class differances, it has to be dealt with on its own terms .
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@ B.R.
nice comments… All people need to come together and take on the elite in Brazil.
One thing I know you will agree on (and I can’t stand it) is what I call the Xuxa factor. Its as if everybody is brainwashed into thinking that Blond/Straight hair automatically equates one with being beautiful. What is that old saying, “You can put lipstick on a pig, but that doesn’t make it pretty!” Well, evidently, if you’re in Brazil it can! Just put a blond wig on some ugly girl and all of the sudden you have guys going gaga. It makes me sick. I was talking to my wife about this during the weekend. She is thinking about letting her hair go natural but on one condition: I have to let her get extensions! lol…
By the way, I forgot to ask my brother about that question you had. Was it Angela Luv?
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Color
For sure their are lots of people in Brazil who defy classifying.
Ivette , for me, looks more Portugues. That costume makes her look a little more morena, but, I see the predominantly white Portugues features in her.
Neginho is another story. I think 65 percent (that is what I heard it was) white could still be dominated by a black gene. But under 90 percent black or indian is in white territory if you ask me.Ivette looks like a lot of Portugues women. Lots of olive skinned Brazilians look Italian, because they are, there is a huge Italian population in Brazil. Most of the whites in Brazil probably have little teeny bits of indian and black blood in them, but they still look white.
I think what we really are talking about in both countries is the differance with people who look white and those that dont as oposed to blood counts. All others who dont look white just fall into a catagory of non white in the nitty gritty of racist discrimination
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Color haha your posts come in as I write another so i missed this one.
Totaly agree with you about xuxa…..
Yeah, I am still interested in those industry questions…haha
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Color, your post came in as I was writing
I agree about Xuxa
I am still interested in those industry questions hahah
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(Marie Luv) see how exited I got thinking about it, I posted twice hahah
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I wish I could find a picture of Ivete Sangalo with her “natural hair”.
Granted, you get a lot of Portuguese and Italian descendants in Brazil who are olive, white and DARK complected that are considered ‘morena’. They still are not portrayed as much on Television, though in a greater percentage than someone overtly of a more mixed phenotype.
That goes back to some comments myself, J and Abagond were talking about. There are a lot of Meditteranean people that are 100% European who could pass for bi-racial or mixed in the “stereotypical” sense. This includes Brazilians too who may only have Portuguese/Italian blood. They may have coarse curly hair or very dark complexions, or a combination of features that would lead one to “assume” they are multiracial.
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This is a great clip from Kamau Bells show Ending racism in about an hour. He talks about the one drop rule and color ism within bi racial families. Basically all the concerns I have about having bi racial kids.
What really struck me was at about 2:45 when he is talking about his kids and he says “Black people meeting,” I know it is a joke, but it is true. I think I would feel kind of left out in a bi racial family.
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Just to add that when speaking of Portuguese/Spanish types. It should not be forgotten that they interacted with the Moors/Arabs/Berbers.
Loosely speaking what you appear to have in Latin America is a ‘dark European’ who then intermixed with the Africans once again and the AmerIndian for the first time.
This is the cultural context and backdrop for the analysing of race and/or pheneotype.
J.A Rogers in Sex & Race vol 2, gives a good breakdown.
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“That goes back to some comments myself, J and Abagond were talking about. There are a lot of Meditteranean people that are 100% European who could pass for bi-racial or mixed in the “stereotypical” sense. This includes Brazilians too who may only have Portuguese/Italian blood. They may have coarse curly hair or very dark complexions, or a combination of features that would lead one to “assume” they are multiracial.”
That’s probably because Mediterraneans are themselves a mixture. The Portuguese population is of 8% Sub-Saharan African ancestry if I’m not mistaken.
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“I absolutly dont think Brazil should follow the American black civil rights example, they have to find out the way that works the best for them. But, no matter what, they need to face what slavery has done to the country.
They have to face that directly and not muddle it up with everyone elses rights or class differances, it has to be dealt with on its own terms .”
I agree. And the indigenous peoples of that region are even worse off than the blacks. And there’s huge amount of classism. All these problems should be addressed.
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“I hate classification systems in general.”
I’m against classification systems too. Americans should stop dividing themselves into the pseudo sub-species known as races. It’s toxic to social cohesion. However, sometimes you need to describe what people look like for practical reasons. Society probably thus can’t completely rid itself of labeling. However, under my proposal, these labels would not exist to mark major differences between people in terms of family origin, politics, and culture (like the current system does).
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The terms “black” and “white” have traditionally been used to divide Americans into two antagonistic social groupings. I think it would be a good thing if “race” were de-politicized by complicating the existing taxonomy.
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J Another factor in Brazil is the large German immigration, so that really takes the mix thing into high gear.
You get some second or third generation Germans who have married some third generation Italians that had married some Portuguese and some of them had Indian or African blood in them so you get these blond tawny Germans with appled bottom and thicker than European lips.
I call these European mixtures, with the traces of Indian and African, “pastels”…not quite beige but traces
It does take Brazil into hyper mixture catagorie and its one of the truly endearing thing about down here….looking at all these incredible mixtures (yoiu know what Im talking about , Color).
O , ill check out the youtuve and let you knw what I think
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@Color,
Ivete Sangalo does not look fully white in that picture you linked to, but maybe it was just about the camera angle or lighting. She looks fully white in other pictures.
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Cheers BR,
And what impact if any has the Japanese presence had??
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“I guess it is not such a far cry that 100% White guy from the U.S. could pass for bi-racial. The brazilians always said I had a “foot in Africa”, when I still had a full head of hair. Talk about Colourism, my wife is worried our kids will have “bad hair” because of me!!! Go figure… (and thus the obsession with ALL female Brazilians straightening their hair.)”
It’s been noted that hair rather than skin color is the most important physical marker of African origins. It’s really the only thing visually separating blacks from darker-skinned East Indians if you think about it.
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J good point, the Japanese presence is a hidden one, but, very forceful in Sao Paulo
Few ackowledge it but their baseball team in something like the junior olympics has won championships
Im not sure how it plays out in the mix, there must be some , but, its not as observed as the German influence.
Sabrina Sato is one of the most notable Japanese Brazilians talked about.
Can you guess why ?
O, O, O , O
I guarentee you, racial stuff in interracial mairedges and with the kids is the least important issue on the table , unless the white guy or girl is from the Klan. That guy will realise that when he has his kids….
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F G that picture is kind of Ivette doing a Carmen Miranda thing, with a costume that does make her look more exotic.
For me, she looks a lot like a more Portugues descendant.
They had the Ms Brasil contest on Tv last night, out of about 26 contestents, they had maybe one black girl, two very mixed girls and one or two very light girls who could be debatable what color…
The rest , either blonds or very similar looking Portugues brunetes, with skin that was mostly white or an olive skin.
Pretty skewed to the white side in a country that just is over abundant in drop dead gorgeous black women.
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A deep point I want to make is that, inspite of the large mixture and all kinds of debatable origins, there are huge parts of the Brazilian population that are black by any streatch of the imagination.
It is not a country that has a population that is all mixed and everyone kind of falls into a mixed race look.
You can see lots of people that are definitly white looking, black looking, and of course a lot of people that are mixed.
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“They had the Ms Brasil contest on Tv last night, out of about 26 contestents, they had maybe one black girl, two very mixed girls and one or two very light girls who could be debatable what color…
The rest , either blonds or very similar looking Portugues brunetes, with skin that was mostly white or an olive skin.
Pretty skewed to the white side in a country that just is over abundant in drop dead gorgeous black women.”
Do you think it’s mainly a colorism issue, or are Brazilians just not used to seeing pure-white blondes and find them exotic? It’s odd that Brazil is fixated on very white women while the rest of the world falls head over heels for Brazil’s non-white females.
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“A deep point I want to make is that, inspite of the large mixture and all kinds of debatable origins, there are huge parts of the Brazilian population that are black by any streatch of the imagination.
It is not a country that has a population that is all mixed and everyone kind of falls into a mixed race look.
You can see lots of people that are definitly white looking, black looking, and of course a lot of people that are mixed.”
Right, right. And the population composition varies alot by region, right?
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F G the Brazilian media is loaded with and it flaunts its blonds. As Ive noted, with the German immigration, you can find blonds all over the country, much more in the south, but, even in Recife, Ive seen lots of blonds.
The desician makers at the top are elite whites and they do a marvelous job of imposing their value system all over the media. In beauty contests and modeling and TV stars, etc, you really could be like watching Swiss TV…but, not in futebol, the selection of Brazil. That is more the real Brazil mix
Im telling you, there are many more people who could pass as pure white , than people may think of Brazil.
One fascinating thing about an American coming to Brazil, there are many things that can remind you of how races look in the states, but , with far more racial mixture. Its like as if something just went in a differant direction in Brazil , and, this is what it would look like if there was more race mixture between white , black and indian. But each of those race groups is represented on their own.
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F G just saw your last post
yes, region makes a differance, but, still you can find the whites everywhere
of course, there are less whites than in comparison to the States
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Gorgeous dark skinned women don’t have to wear any kind of make-up or any other “Beauty” products to be beautiful.
Light skin chicks, including white chicks, kind of go overboard with these products.
You cannot beat a natural chocolate beauty IMHO.
I love all women!!!! Now if the woman is ignorant or a whoolly mammoth, I still love them but they’re on their OWN…
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Well, I just wrote a full page and lost it, so I’ll keep this short.
@ FG – yeah, I agree about Ivete’s appearance. My wife who is mixed told me “Ivete is mixed”, but straightens her hair. My point is that phenotype can be a matter of perception too. I guarantee Ivete likes the beach just as much as any other brazilian (all Brazilians love the beach. Its in their blood.) yet you never see her “dark” and you never see her natural hair. Hell, in most pictures she looks like a vampire. (A Rabbit Hole J ?)
@ B.R. – good point on the inter generational immigrant family mix with Germans, Italians, Portuguese… Don’t forget a large number of Spanish also. (My Grandfather in-law was Spanish, although blond haired/blue eyed.) Then you have the Lebanese influence. But great mixture nonetheless. Brazilian beauties come in a variety of packages for sure!
@ J – Japanese Brazilians have really added to the culturaly vibrancy. Even much more than in the U.S. (IMO) You have a lot of Japanese mixed Brazilian families now. Unlike in the U.S, many moved beyond metropolitan areas and settled in the rural small towns & countryside opening businesses and/or farming. Completely integrated into the communities. The countryfolk in Brazil are not segregated like in the U.S, everyone is a part of the community: And it is a mixed one. As a matter of fact, Rodeos are huge in Brazil and this is why you now have Brazilians dominating the U.S. Rodeo circuit.
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Cheers ColorofLuv….
Nothing more annoying than writing and losing that work, only to be written out again, but not to the same standard because of the ill feelings that reside within ha ha ha .
It sounds very interesting, and shows how diverse communities can be in different countries of the world
What you and BR said about European families intermarrying reminds me of some part of the Caribbean also. The Irish in Barbados, and Germans in Jamaica
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“@ FG – yeah, I agree about Ivete’s appearance. My wife who is mixed told me “Ivete is mixed”, but straightens her hair. My point is that phenotype can be a matter of perception too. I guarantee Ivete likes the beach just as much as any other brazilian (all Brazilians love the beach. Its in their blood.) yet you never see her “dark” and you never see her natural hair. Hell, in most pictures she looks like a vampire. (A Rabbit Hole J ?)”
Yes, I get the sense that mixed people have highly variable skin tone. In winter time, I have an almost northern European color, but when I tan in summer I could pass for Mexican.
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@J:
I am aware that Colourism in Brazil is complex, but the thing I do not know is ‘how far the rabbit holes goes’??
It is, in fact, a quantum tunnel leading to nowhere in particular and taking an infinite amount of time to get there.
@BR
I absolutly dont think Brazil should follow the American black civil rights example, they have to find out the way that works the best for them. But, no matter what, they need to face what slavery has done to the country.
They have to face that directly and not muddle it up with everyone elses rights or class differances, it has to be dealt with on its own terms.
The problem is that class and race can’t be so cleanly and antiseptically cut away from one another, neither in brazil nor the U.S. People forget that slavery was first and foremost an economic system. Class needs to be brought in and discussed interesectionally with race (and vice versa) or the entire discussion is ultimately sterile.
As for facing that directly, Brazil has been doing that for quite some time.
@CoL
All people need to come together and take on the elite in Brazil.
First of all, who are these “elite” that you speak of? By any stretch of the sociological imagination, they’d have to include you, me, Ana Paula, B.R., Gilberto Gil and Luis Ignácio Lula da Silva.
The “Brazilian elite are evil” argument is a cop-out for people who haven’t the slightest clue, usually, what “elite” means.
I agree that Xuxa should be burned at the stake, however.
FG sez:
I agree. And the indigenous peoples of that region are even worse off than the blacks. And there’s huge amount of classism. All these problems should be addressed.
Are they now? And this opinion is based on what, exactly? Your deep understanding of Brazilian indigenous affairs?
@B.R.
They had the Ms Brasil contest on Tv last night, out of about 26 contestents, they had maybe one black girl, two very mixed girls and one or two very light girls who could be debatable what color…
We watched that too and commented on the same thing. Miss Brasil hasn’t changed since back in the early 1900s when it started. Back then, Roquette-Pinto’s wife (see http://omangueblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/whitening-theory-in-brazil.html for more information re: this… interesting… anthropologist) vetted the candidates for Miss Brazil at the National Museum in order to make sure that they “appropriately represented the Brazilian racial type” – which was the type you saw last week: white skin, curvy body, wavy or straight black hair.
Watching this year’s Miss, Ana commented that they must’ve rolled Mrs. Roquette-Pinto out of the tomb for the judging on this one.
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@Thad
I wouldn’t say the elite are “evil” nor are “we” as Middle Class a part of that group. When I’m talking about the Elite I’m talking about the 1% running and controlling the majority openly and discretely for their own self serving interests. Globo for example, propagandist news reports… (yes, I know we have examples like this in the U.S)
If you have any examples of material about the Brazilian elite, I would love to read up. (Just asking for your suggestions because i do respect your scholarly opinion & knowledge.)
As for Miss Brazil, what a shame!!! Any “pigs in lipstick spotted?” lol… I wonder why the general population isn’t in an uproar??? White Wash on the Brain? I wan’t straight hair like that? RABBIT HOLES????????????????
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“We”, as the middle class, definitely make up a good portion fo what passes for elite in Brazil in any sociological sense of the word. The 1% running the country includes who, exactly?
This is the sort of essentially empty Brazilian populist rhetoric that really prevents change. Everything’s the fault of an amorphous, nameless elite.
Let’s put names on the bulls: who are we talking about, what do they control and why are we against them?
Otherwise there is and will be no accountability at all in this country.
As for the Miss contest… One of the reasons people don’t pay it much attention is that it’s nowhere near as popular here as it is in the U.s. It’s hardly a central tradition of the nation’s popular culture.
Re: elites. Notícias do Planalto is a good place to begin, I think.
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I think the people you mentioned ,Thad, that includes us, are the “privaleged”.
If I want to look for elite to blame, I would start with who is making desicians in the media.
You mentioned once that it is improving. It is, but at a snails pace. The real black shows on TV in Brazil, are American shows like ” Everybody Hates Chris”, shown back to back 4 times or so with no comercials , every weekday afternoon. “My Wife and Kids ” , and they used to show ” Fresh Prince”, and some others.
But , other than that, its like a few years after “Julia” , 2 or 3 black or mixed Brazilians for every 20 or so pretty obviously white Brazilians. One exception was the show with Netinho. But, lots of times, its someone playing a maid or prostitute or both as one show had Elizabeth Filardes (sp?) do.
And , Im not happy with the music they show in the media. There are black entertainers represented, but, not on a large scale, that really shows what kind of broad and rich range black Brazil brings to the table. Only Carnival and
World Cup start revealing the enormous rich black culture from Brazil.
And, I beleive Brazil has its version of the “good old boy” network in hiring for jobs and housing.
I sure dont know how you describe what the problem is in the Universities that have a huge white majority, but, no matter how you describe it, it is overwelmingly a white world.
Thad, while class runs right along side with racism, there is far too much racial exclusion all over, like in the media , as I have pointed out, to try to mix class in with racism.
They both need to be addressed, but, Im surprised to hear you say that, because I think you know, blatent racial exclusion and stereotypes about white beauty over black beauty, abound.
Personaly, I dont respect the people in Brazil who try to sluff over the race issue and muddle it up as a class issue .Lots of them are red flaggers with a socialist agenda. Some others are nationalists who just dont want to face the problem and will tell you Brazil doesnt have racism, which you know is bs.
They both need to be addressed on their own terms.
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Color, I dont know if you have the same problem I do , with Abagonds blog going out, but, I learned, if I make a speech, I have to copy and paste it , in case the blog goes out as I click it up.
If it does that, I just wait and paste it in when it comes back…..
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Short documentary film- Color of Beauty
http://jezebel.com/5536301/when-big-lips-dont-work-the-struggles-of-a-black-model
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Wow…
This conversation has taken a turn for …. lol well, it’s really off topic.
There were a lot of ignorant remarks made, and I don’t want to target anyone in particular but just make a few remarks—sometimes, it’s just necessary.
1- The continent of Africa is the most diverse…in terms of people..period, black white Asian, mixed, other, whatever– and the amazing part about this is….they are the most diverse dismissing any “admixture”.
2. In many countries in Africa, WITHOUT “admixture” there are light skin black people..South Africa…Nigeria..just to name a few countries..I won’t get into tribes. This is just in regard to skin tone.
3. In terms of OTHER phenotypical aspects, because skin tone IS a phenotype too 🙂 …… they are still the most diverse. This so called “Afro-look” lol which some of you talk about like there is just on why to “look” in terms of being black or African–you’re way off.
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Correction:
This so called “Afro-look” lol which some of you talk about like there is just one way to “look” in terms of being black or African–you’re way off.
Cool links to check out:
http://news.discovery.com/human/african-dna-genetic-diversity.html
…For those really curious, what you might deem the “European” phenotype, is not really “Eurpoean” when many Africans have them just the same –> without mixing, and it’s been established life started in Africa.
Few tribes to look into:
Kanuri
Tutsi
Wodaabe
Khoisan
Masai
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Correction:
This so called “Afro-look” lol which some of you talk about like there is just one way to “look” in terms of being black or African–you’re way off.
Cool links to check out:
http://news.discovery.com/human/african-dna-genetic-diversity.html
…For those really curious, what you might deem the “European” phenotype, is not really “European” when many Africans have them just the same –> without mixing, and it’s been established life started in Africa.
Few tribes to look into:
Kanuri
Tutsi
Wodaabe
Khoisan
Masai
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Image, I agree 100 percent. It’s sad when you hear people that seemed intelligent and informed make such remarks.
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@ Image
I’m glad you pointed this out. Abagond and a lot of others have made similar observations and commented in other threads. As a Continent, Africa is extremely diverse. Even in individual regions, countries, etc… are filled with a multitude of phenotypical differences.
Sadly, most people don’t realize that. Not only is the “Out of Africa” theory correct, but there is also “Into Africa” again, if you will. The constant flux of movement, trade, travel has kept Africa very much diverse in its genetic make up.
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Cor (please stop changing your name, I beg!), I think you missed Image’s point: the diversity in African phenotypes is not due to admixture.
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@ Natasha
You got it…. ColorOfLuv it is…. (Cor de Amor is the same, its just Portuguese.) Sorry, I actually got tired of that name but for identification’s sake, I’ll keep it as the original.)
I didn’t miss it. I understand the articles. (just read them, and then went on a reading tangent about Neanderthals, early man, etc… Fascinating stuff.) All I’m saying is that IN ADDITION to the Genetic Diversity in and of Africa itself, you DO HAVE ADMIXTURE for the reasons I stated. I was NOT trying to imply anything else. Trust me, I’m not saying the diversity Image is talking about is from “Admixture”, I was just saying “in addition” to….
The homogeneous/heterogenous assumptions most people have are false: I get it.
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sorry if I didn’t make sense earlier.
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@ Natasha
“Image’s point: the diversity in African phenotypes is not due to admixture.”
But in some instances it is.
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^Yes, some. But not all, and certainly not in the places where most blacks around the world originated from (West and Central Africa).
I think what many people in the Amer