Some of the stuff you say on this blog is so off-the-wall I am wondering if it is some kind of deep troll game, some form of mockery or satire. But, taking what you say at face value:
On the thread for “My advice to White people” you said:
“Abagond, you have any advice for our obviously lesser [White American] culture and society? We are lesser now, but why must it always be that way? Can’t you forgive us in some good capacity? Why must we be the pathetic ones FOREVER. Aren’t we equal to you all?”
On the Open Thread you said:
“When will poc see me as more than a cancer cell (A, Origin, pumpkin), a joke (Herneith, sharinalr, taotesan), or a lemon (i.e. something to squeeze until the juice runs out)?.”
“What i am responsible for and how should i be accountable to it?”
“Where do i belong?, because conventional anti-racism dictates my peers as either whitewashed poc or whites who are assholes.”
You frame much of this under the ideas of cultural appropriation and White privilege.
I suppose you could, as much as possible, eat, dress, talk, think, dance and live like the people of England in the 1400s. That would be pretty much “pure” in your sense, the last English-speaking culture that was not screwed up too much by racism or cultural appropriation. It might give you some interesting insights on White American culture in the 2000s, in regard to racism and other things. But apart from that, who would it help?
Much better in terms of anti-racism is to learn as much about racism as possible. The most important part of that is listening to what a broad range of people of colour say, putting yourself in their shoes, taking what they say seriously, not making it about you and your feelings. If you make it about your feelings, it is going to get in the way of your understanding, you are going to get stuck, like you seem to be now.
Making it about your guilty feelings will likely make matters worse: it was guilt over genocide and slavery that led to racism in the first place. Not that you should push those feelings completely out of your mind. You need to come to terms with them at some level. But that does not mean they should take centre stage.
You say you do not have money for books, that your friends are heavily brainwashed by White racism, but there are libraries and the Internet. In the US, they have tons of stuff written by people of colour. (Note that American public education, film, television, magazines and newspapers are heavily filtered by Whites.)
Armed with that knowledge, you should talk to other White people about racism. They will listen to you way, way more than to, say, me. It is a part of their racism, the Five Rules of Racial Standing (see below for the link).
Regards,
Abagond, July 27th 2015.
See also:
- Five Rules of Racial Standing
- growing up White American
- the feelings of White people
- Advice to White people:
- cultural appropriation
- White privilege
- people of colour
- An open letter to Zek on double standards
546
Wow. Really?
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The challenge is – how to communicate THIS message to people.
Growing up in the USA, I used to hang out at the library. That is where I learned things, not in school. But that was before the internet. As long as the internet is not blocked and under severe governmental control, there is plenty of information there.
Stuff I learned during High School but from the library (late 1970s):
– Jim Crow laws
– the Chinese Exclusion Act
– Loving v. Virginia
– USA’s immigration policy (during the 1920s and 1960s)
– the meaning of the “melting pot” and what that meant for blacks, Native Americans and Asians
– the Japanese-American internment
– Virginia’s racial integrity Act
– How racially diverse both whites and blacks were in the USA, and how hundreds of thousands of blacks had already “passed” into the white population
etc.
It also made me realize stuff I did not know, like who were the people living on the land where I went to school before the English came.
It also made me question all the stuff I was learning in High School. For AP History, I picked the research topic “the Myth of the Melting Pot”.
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I couldn’t take him seriously anymore don’t know what his agenda was.
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I suggested listening to the podcast “About Race” he could learn a lot from that podcast.
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@Lord of Mirkwood: Hmmm………
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@jefe: Suggesting the library is the best suggestion and the internet
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@Mary Burrell
re
2nded
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Abagond, if you wondering no, i’m not trolling or mocking anybody. I can’t explain why i’m strange, because i’m not the one who thinks i’m strange. Maybe it might have to do with my youth (i’m 18), or my mental handicaps (i have Asperger’s and Clinical Depression), but again, i don’t know. I don’t get why this post was needed, but i hate it when creators of any kind delete inoffensive material, so please keep it up even if i do change.
Thanks for the patience, btw. I rarely get the luxury. I will find an answer on my own. Though, i feel bad about completely leaving the blog.
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@Jefe
I’m actually quite aware of all those things. We learnt them, but it was taught as “the best possible scenario” or a “fixed mistake”.
plan on rectifying them from afar by moving to England or something. and doing work there. Yeah, i know returning to Europe isn’t the be-all end-all solution, but i’m not quite sure why whites get to stay in America. I open to staying or going depending on which is necessary.
@LOM
They think you’re a hypocrite or that you’re onto something. I’m not sure which, to be frank.
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Best of luck Uriel. I hope that as you grow older you will see in real time some of the issues discussed in this blog and then they wont seem so abstract.
LOM “Hmmm what?”
When I first read what you I was wondering whether you were serious or whether it was sarcastic humor. 99% of history books are written from a white centric point of view. The news media whether its Fox or MSNBC is also from a white centric point of view. Kinda like the racist uncle.
Abagond said “try putting yourself in their shoes”.
When I was a young capitalist I read communist materials but found I got a better understanding of Marxism if I thought like a communist rather then immediately dismissing what was being said because of my preconceived ideas.
When you read books whether they are history, philosophy, economics ect you have to ask yourself what lens is the author writing through. Sometimes its racist sometimes its ideological, mostly its the winners writing history. Howard Zinn books cover lots of class and race issues in history that government text books don’t touch upon. But he is also writing from a strong ideological left lens so that’s a filter you need to be aware of. So use critical thinking and parse everything you read. No one author ever gets it all right, some ideas are worth holding, others need further clarification or need rejecting. Foot notes are great and its always best to go to the source material to clarify a point that another author is putting a spin on.
I don’t think your a hypocrite btw. I think you need to open your mind a bit more and rely less on preconceived notions.
People imagine the world as a bunch of neatly placed ideological boxes but the world is much more complex then that with cross overs, variations and static noise amplified in the back ground.
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@Michael Jon Barker; That was well said and great suggestions
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@Uriel,
My comment was about finding information when you cannot afford to buy many books and when you surround yourself with people imbued with white-centric thinking. Not sure what you mean by “We learnt them, but it was taught as “the best possible scenario” or a “fixed mistake”. ”
Do you mean that you learned them in school, or from the people you surrounded yourself with, instead of books?
@Michael Jon Barker,
Regarding your reply to L of M
Yep.
I would add one more: γνῶθι σεαυτόν (nosce te ipsum)
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“Know thyself.” I can only speak for myself bur “being anti-racist” doesn’t mean I cease to be white centric.
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@Uriel
I don’t suggest leaving, but I do suggest reading and learning. If you run away you will never start that process.
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I don’t know who Uriel is or what (s)he says. I can say this: I am a WM who has lived a lot of life within or among the black community and thought I knew a lot about racism. I learn stuff all the time from Agabond, and not just random trivia stuff: solid, pithy, insightful stuff that has informed and continues to inform and expand my personal perspective. Keep on doing what you’re doing, Agabond. Best blog on the internet.
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@jefe
I mean, the subjects were taught in school and from associates, but as if they were the best possible outcome or accidents that are fixed up now. I can’t remember how i became in the know about bigotry.
Also, frankly, i admit dodging sources partly on arrogance and presumption- not just time/ energy constraints and insecurity.
I thought all they said was “I’m/ We’re/ They’re suffering in [situation] because of [detriment], which is [privileged] people’s fault. Do something. “. Or that they had a good message to answer my questions, but that it could be repeated in a few seconds.
I generally believe it when poc say they something is racist, so i normally don’t bother reading up on the evidence. I also dislike the fact i can’t ask a book or a webpage questions.
For instance, on cultural appropriation, i keep hearing in response to “Is it wrong to get play a modified form of jazz and call it something else signifying its difference?” something like “If you play jazz know that actual Black Americans get/ got chastized for doing so by whites.”. Which misses my points because a) they assume x thing must mean y value in all cultures and b) i am automatically the chastizer for not being chastized. If neither are the case, lemme know because i don’t get it.
@Abagond
One thing i should also mention is that i’m searching for validation from non-whitewashed poc and poc-approved allies (i never hear anything positive or neutral about me or my culture from them). I regard all others as racist so i don’t care what they think of me unless it puts my life in danger.
If i try to make amends for my and my culture’s wrongdoings, may i and it be forgiven (i always hear accountability > forgiveness, and “i’ll never forget or forgive what whites have done.”)? One of the number one things i need is acceptance from people i consider good. I get behind you and other poc not calling white infimacists (opposite of supremacists) out, but why do they end up so successful?
Also, why do in-the-know poc (without depression, mistake guilt, or similar conditions) say they hate themselves, even though they are not responsible for anything wrong?
Again, i’m serious. Just please answer the questions “Will whites ever get full acceptance/ forgiveness from poc?” and “What is my non-colonial culture?”. Please, cut me some slack. All the things you quoted aren’t just gut feelings, but how i genuinely think.
Also, how is reviving a pre-racism European culture or making a new culture mutually and working/ learning how to end racism exclusive?
@sharinalr
Do you mean leaving America or the blog?
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Apologies if the preceding post by me is whiny. I am just seriously in a rut.
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Actually, Abagond feel free to ignore the parts addressed to you, bar “where’s my acceptance by the just?”.
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@Uriel
I was referring to the blog.
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@ Jefe
I can still remember the first time I heard about the melting pot. The teacher was White and she was up there talking as if there were no Black people in the US – even though her class was half White and half Black.
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@ Uriel
When they admit what is wrong, openly and honestly talk about it without making it all about their feelings and then try to make things right as much as possible, probably through some kind of reparations / truth and reconciliation commission / reforms to end structural racism. Right now, most of them cannot even get to square one. Because they control the mainstream culture, they can remain in a state of denial and write off people of colour as “oversensitive”.
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@ Uriel
As I stated in the post, I think having some kind of “pure” culture is besides the point and not terribly useful. Cultural appropriation is more a symptom than a cause. Your time would be better spent learning about racism and talking to Whites about it. Leaving the country for good would not help at all. That would just be running away.
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@ Uriel
People of colour suffer from self-hatred due to internalized racism:
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Case in point–> exihibit ZZZ, about one’s feelings… *sigh* a whole post -Abagond really?
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@ lifelearner
I started writing a comment to Uriel and it turned into a post. In any case, it is better to keep this discussion in one place instead of spread among half a dozen threads.
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I think people sometimes use comment blogs as a source of social interaction. That’s why they never seem to understand what people tell them. They like the extended conversation.
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@sharinalr
Okay. Thanks for clarifying.
@Abagond
Reply 1: I understand, glad i am actually entitled to be seen as equal if i do work.
Reply 2: I mean, i also wanna move to England for personal reasons, and it’s not exactly happytime there, either. Why do white Americans get to stay but not white Australians, for instance? I understand talking to white people, and where else can i find if not Europe and the internet? I mean, i need my own culture that’s as good as yours, so i’m reviving my Jewish roots.
Reply 3: Ohhhhh. My apologies.
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Cultural appropriations is a symptom of what part of racism and colonialism? I’m quite positive many poc don’t just wanna do certain things, they want the things to mean the same thing in each culture and for them to only have it (despite whites and different poc going out of their way to change the artifact to separate the notions). Is this true?
—
Sharinalr also said in the cultural appropriation results from every poc culture being seen as savage. Because that’s how we think: “Poc are so wrong, but their inventions are so right, let’s take those inventions!”.
The idea of forming one superculture instead of many petty cultural differences means even white culture gets shortchanged. Culture is a construct designed to separate people based on geography not experience. If it’s not, whycome all my culture is evil and yours is benign? Can’t some unique part of my life be benign?
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@Abagond “3. Few White Americans feel complicit in the killing of Cecil. They can openly condemn it without fearing that a light will be cast on the ugly mountain of injustice that their own lives are built on.”
This easily hits the mark. Like i bet the only reasons whites are acting high and mighty upon this “issue” is a mixture of white entitlement and white luck (#1), and general desire to be seen as good. I don’t speak for all whites, but i get the feeling i’m right.
Also, i doubt many whites try to see Blacks, as of all things, monkeys. That would either mean acknowledging that Blacks are nearly human and conscious, or having a deliberate hatred. I mean, (#2) is unlikely, but not impossible. Are you serious, no offense, no condescension?
The second sentence in (#3) is what i mean when i say “white lives are lesser” or something like that. You view all we have as ill-gotten, including our safety, leeway, culture, potential for growth, and potential for outsider empathy. So, since all those are privileges not lucks, we don’t necessarily deserve any of them. Even if those aren’t ill-gotten, what do we deserve? Probably not land or artifacts in/of/by anywhere/anyone/anything, but at least something righteous and tradeworthy of our own. I asked “How do i get righteous things?” and the only answers i’ve gotten have been “End racism/ do work.”, like righteous stuff falls into our laps the second we do that. And that i should responsibility for things i had no control over. I can only change my intent and effort.
Before you say the above paragraph is fee-fees, keep in mind i’m a) neutral emotionally, and b) you are apparently implying by your responses to my questions that you have a right to withhold me things everyone has but me (a REAL culture- not colonial bullshit, leeway, a deserved existence, potential for growth, and acceptance).
@Lord Of Mirkwood, Abagond to an extent
If animals could think, the first thing they’d do is kill all humans, for what they’ve done, starting with the white people. If speciesism exists, then there has not been enough done on any individual’s part (tangent: I don’t necessarily believe in the worst, but i expect it, so that way i’m never disappointed.)
@Linda
Is there any thing that white tourists, researchers, and visitors shouldn’t do that poc tourists, researchers, and visitors should be able to? Besides immigrate or use slurs or be involved with public activities.
I think the gaps of racism, judging by how i see poc react to it, is too great. It won’t be overcome in the Gen Z’s lifetime. I think whites should live in their own Miracle Village*-esk lands in Europe because of how much of a liability they are to human existence until poc have fully healed from their actions.
If it is not the case and poc can handle the existence of white people, let me know. I’m not sure, and i’m just being cynical to be on the safe side.
*Miracle Village is colony in Florida founded by a priest for heavy sex offenders, who are (rightfully) treated as second-class citizens in the area (and hopefully worldwide). It’s like a leper colony, except it actually needs to exist given the circumstances regarding life sentences, sex offenses, and legislation.
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@Uriel
I’ve been reading all of the discussions you keep entering into across multiple threads and they all seem to have the same themes:
– What about being White can you claim as your own and be proud of without furthering the wrongs of others?
– How can you earn the acceptance/forgiveness of POC or just what can you do to be recognized for NOT wanting to further the wrongs of others?
Here’s the thing. POC in general and most people on this Blog in particular don’t feel the need to help you feel better about yourself. If you’ve read this blog AT ALL you’d pick that up and there’s even entire posts explaining it in great detail.
I get it, you are aware of and accept the very real reality of racism. That’s great! Now, fix it. Don’t fix it because you’re selfish and want some kind of Nobel prize for being the greatest “ally” ever. Don’t even fix it because you want any recognition, praise, thanks or forgiveness at all. Fix it because you want to. Yes, I get that you’re not omnipotent and cannot wave a magic wand and fix it. Do you part, every day, whatever you can, to raise awareness and right the wrongs of others. Learn everything you can and use that knowledge to educate others. That’s it. Do what you think is right and go ahead and be proud of it. Stop looking for acceptance in others and accept yourself. You personally will not likely win the trust and forgiveness of POC. So what. Suck it up, do your part and maybe in a few generations things will be better.
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Open Minded Observer
Sad part is he has been told just that in several different ways.
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A few things:
1. How will it hurt them just to see me as equal? I can live with jerkoff or ignorant poc hating me, but why do they get legions more of supporters than those that actually view me as human? I assume pocs dislike me until proven otherwize, not that they should go out of their way to say they don’t. I generally get the idea they hate me from things like “i’ll never forgive white people” (some people i feel like not mentioning on Tumblr and WordPress outside of here) or “whites can never be good” (Kil Ja Kim).
My logic is this: if i am not accepted by good people, i am doing something wrong.
How is acceptance from the good people in the world a cookie? I do work but it is always undone by some white guy i didn’t hear of ruining everything. I repeat that i am not omnipotent because only you, King, Jefe, Abagond, Sharinalr, and Kiwi and maybe others i forgot to mention actually believe it. I don’t want a medal.
2. It’s less about being white and more about being (white) American. You didn’t answer this one. Moreover, only King has chimed in on this, and i am a bit skeptical about just joining in a culture i wasn’t raised in.
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@Uriel
You seem hung up on this concept of quid pro quo. There will be no instant gratification in this journey.
Your logic is flawed. Is your motive is to be of benefit to good people? Then, if your specific actions are directly critiqued by good people, you are doing something wrong. If your behavior directly hurts good people, you are doing something wrong. It is the impact you have on those good people that matters not how they feel about you. That is how to be selfless.
If your motive is to make POC resent you less because that makes you feel better about yourself, well then it’s all about you and your feelings. That’s actually the impression you seem to be giving everyone. That you want to help as long as that comes with acceptance / forgiveness. If that’s the case, go start a blog entitled “Why POC hate me” and try to facilitate a discussion that helps you gain acceptance / forgiveness for “good whites” that you feel are unfairly unloved by POC.
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@Kiwi
I’ll be the second (after you) to admit i’m wrong about poc automatically being anti-racist. But i did think that most poc were putting up a facade of liking me (while in public) so they’d get thru the day. Or at least younger ones did, since our generation does sort of learn about the atrocities of white people.
Frankly, i don’t bother with heavily whitewashed poc unless i have to, as there is no way i can get them out of that state of mind. Moreover, it’s hard to be around somebody who is quite clearly under a spell.
@OpenMindedObserver
It’s not just poc, it’s poc-approved allies as well. If all poc hated me but enough poc-approved allies did, but that’s besides the point. My beefs for acceptance/ forgiveness are either already solved or relate closer to something else. Thanks.
You know the answer to the second one? If you don’t, why did you bring it up?
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@Uriel
I’m sorry, my advice was intertwined on the two subjects. Fundamentally, it’s up to you and nobody else’s opinion should matter. However, just for fun, why don’t you list all the things you identify with “White American Culture” that you’d like to embrace and maybe others will help you narrow the list down if necessary.
Unless your motive isn’t to learn what you can embrace as your “culture” without earning the disapproval of those whose opinions you seem to value. Maybe your motive is to prove some kind of reverse racism point. If that’s the case, you can post about how there is no possible acceptable culture available to you on the “Why POC hate me” blog I suggested earlier.
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“Just suck it up, are you just starting a ruse?”
I am not trying to prove poc hate me to anyone or even promote that reverse racism exists or even reverse prejudice is just as bad.
If i’m the oppressor, always will be, and oppressors are bad, what’s the point?
Why is the entire message, “give up yourself”? That’s the one thing i have and you’re deciding i don’t deserve individuality for my birth? Why must i be punished for things i have no control over or because others are punished way worse?
Why is it so righteous for me to be hated for stuff i cannot control? I get behind those believing such being left alone to a minor following, but instead they draw real crowds of people!
Why am i hated even when i do work?
Why are people ignorant about racism considered people worthy to be accepted by?
I don’t care if i’m coddled or believed, just if i’m listened to and bore with.
“You want to feel better about poc suffering.”
I don’t, frankly, i am frustrated with poc suffering, but because i don’t consider it my fault the second i do work, i consider myself unguilty.
Instead, i want to feel good about my existence, because everyone who hasn’t raped or murdered or something has that right. But me having it apparently means others don’t. I don’t mean white pride, but self-pride while being white.
“You can do what you want.”
Forget can, it’s about should. Nobody should care what pro-racists think, and frankly, their vote is disqualified.
I admit i have some unconscious biases and i get behind poc not wanting to be around me, but why do allies get to carry the same “you’re lesser” mentality, despite it not coming from a real place?
“You do have a culture.”
A colonial, capitalism, and oppressive one. Why should i keep it? Is it so wrong to create one by expanding a culture from a good subculture like the hobos? Can i just be something real and benign while having the identity? I wasn’t raised Jewish, so i don’t quite consider myself a Jew, thought i’ve been reading the Tanakh and i am attempting to practice as much ethical stuff i can find from there.
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Apologies for my tone, i just don’t get some things.
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I don’t wanna be the best, just good enough. I know everyone is associated with at least some bad in their personal history, but comparatively few are associated with the worst.
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Apologies of i come off entitled or whiny.
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I take back the mega-guilty things like the Miracle Village idea.
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Folks cut Uriel some slack, seriously. He did mention he suffered from Asperger syndrome:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
If he really does, it would explain some of his posts.
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