Dear Zek:
In your post “Double Standards (con’t)” on your blog Zeitgeist of the Saboteur Academia you said you saw a Black Power sign at your university campus that you wanted to tear down. You suspected those Black Power people looked down on you and hated you for being white. But you do not even think of yourself as white – you are just “skinny, Jewish, wears jeans, listening to an iPod”. So why should you have to suffer for the mistakes of white people? And what if you put up a White Power sign, how come that is seen so differently?
It seems like blacks are being hypocritical and ignorant, a case of double standards.
Here is my take:
1. Black Power signs are good and White Power signs are bad:
The thing you are forgetting is that there is a huge difference in power between blacks and whites. American society is built on white power. A White Power sign would be like hitting a man when he is down. A Black Power sign is like helping him to get back up.
Unlike other races, whites have power over society as a whole. Blacks do not control the schools, the police, the courts, the press, the banks and the housing and labour markets. Those are largely run by and for white people.
If America ever found itself under black rule – like how South Africa was once under white rule – then that would be completely different. Then Black Power signs would be just as wrong as White Power signs are now. And whites would see that most of their troubles come from a lack of power and some would push for White Power and try to put up White Power signs.
2. You are white even if you do not think so:
You are white because you look white. Even if you do not see yourself that way, others do: employers, landlords, real estate agents, bank officers, teachers, judges, doctors, car salesmen, policemen, etc. That gives you a measurable edge over blacks whether you want it to or not. It is called white privilege. It is like class privilege but instead of being based on wealth it is based on skin colour. Most whites do not even know that it is there because they never had to live without it. It is like the air they breathe.
3. Blacks are not as hypocritical and ignorant as you think:
Blacks continue to experience racism, even now in the days of Obama. That gives them a considerably different view of America. It is why their thinking seems so screwed up to you – because they are coming from a different point of view based on a different set of experiences.
If you truly want to understand race in America then you have to put yourself in the shoes of black people until their point of view makes complete sense to you. They are no more hypocritical or ignorant than anyone else – they just see things differently. You would too if you were black.
Regards,
Abagond
Thanks to Siditty through whom I found Evets’s blog. She wrote an excellent post, “Racism is Not an Opinion or Something Made Up in People’s Heads”, that was in part a reply to Evets – not to the Black Power thing but to comments he made on her blog.
See also:
- Zeitgeist of the Saboteur Academia: Double Standards (con’t) – the post that this comments on
- The asymmetry of racism
- white privilege
- growing up black
- racelessness
- white gaze
Abagond 
thanks for the links (and back-links).
i appreciate the neutral discussion about my post.
1. i understand the difference between black power signs and white power signs, but i don’t feel like a part of the dominant group, so when i see a black power sign i feel the same knee-jerk reaction that a black person might feel seeing a white power sign. it is the disparity in culturally acceptable reactions that hurts the most, because essentially i am supposed to repress my feelings about how i perceive race relations, due to me being thought of as part of the dominant group.
2. i am not white if i don’t choose to identify that way. similar to the one-drop rule for defining (for lack of a better word) “blackness”, just because i look white doesn’t mean i am white. to me, skin-color is not very useful or informative about someone’s PERSONAL identity, since you are ascribing outward appearance to who they are as a person. being jewish affects my identity in myriad ways more important than my skin-color.
3. i understand that post-obama racism is not gone in america, but when the power-structure has been so changed that a black man is president, it makes it hard to keep talking about institutional racism, and a lot more productive to look at the problem from a socio-cultural perspective. as a jew, i have experienced anti-semitism that is eerily similar in many respects TO racism. i have dealt with instances of ignorance, prejudice, slurs, violence, hatred, etc, and feel remarkably comfortable with people despite these horrible things. i do not let these occurrences negatively influence me as a person.
even more importantly, i can relate to people when they say they have a very different perspective of race in america because of their unique situation. the situation is not unique; the perspective not so different. the only difference between my experiences and theirs is that i was born white and they were born black/brown/yellow/red.
unfortunately, being perceived as a “white man” means that any criticism of race (i say criticism to mean critiquing, not criticizing) as racist, exploitative, patronizing, callous, cruel, and so on.
the assumptions of white luxury do not hold true when there are large groups of poor white people who are one pay-check from being on the streets, yet describe themselves as middle-class. as for me, i have no luxury or privilege greater than any of my peers from ANY racial/ethnic background, and less even, when i compare myself to average college students at my university. they at least have parental contributions to their education. i am one default loan payment away from debtors prison, and often find myself struggling as much as anyone else in this economic climate.
but to answer the most intriguing question(s) at the start of your post, i would say that i refuse to be seen as part of a white power structure, or subtle/institutional racism, since i am neither. it is the perceptions of others that continues to bother me, as i am boxed-in as white, when in fact i am a person. as for why a white power sign would be seen differently… i want to find that out. it’ll be featured in an up-coming social experiment of mine, if you stay-tuned.
thanks for the open letter. i appreciate the intellectually hospitable dialogue. i’ve added your blog to my blogroll.
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@zeke – you’re stressing the fact that you are an individual, and defending your lack of “whiteness” to a fault.
The fact is, just as the status quo in this society automatically lumps all peoples of color into monolithic groups, so too you, as a white male, may be lumped into another monolithic group.
As soon as you, and many others like you, wake up to the fact that you possess a certain skin color that grants you myriad benefits (dare I say PRIVILEGE) almost solely by virtue of that skin color, only then will we have truly intellectually hospitable dialogue.
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Zek:
1. Race is not a choice, not for most people in America. It is based on how you look and whether or not whites see you as one of their own. Jews count as white for the most part. You do not like being boxed in: I do not like being boxed in either. But so it is.
2. If you understood what it is like being black you would not be saying the stuff you do. You would not have Siditty and I jumping on what you say.
3. On the Internet no one has to know you are white. However you come off as white to me, Siditty, Dan and others because you talk like a white person. You say your whiteness does not affect how you are – but it is clear to us that it has.
4. Just because there is class privilege does not mean there is no race privilege. For example, I used to live in a part of New York where the blacks were richer than the whites – yet guess whose neighbourhoods were better protected by the police? It is like that.
5. White privilege: as a white person you will:
– get a better price on a car,
– be able to live in more places for a given income level,
– be way less likely to be out of work for a given level of education,
– get paid more for a given level of education,
– get better care from doctors,
– be given the benefit of the doubt by white people (which can be huge if you are looking for work or a place to stay or face possible arrest),
– be way less likely to be stopped by the police for no good reason,
– receive better police protection,
– be more likely to have your ideas, experiences and outlook taken seriously and
– not be told in a thousand ways that you are no good.
That is just part of the list, off the top of my head. No doubt I forgot something big.
Thanks for adding me to your blogroll. I will add you to mine.
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White Privilege is an opinion, not a fact made up by the new left in the 1970’s. Because you’re white does not mean you will get a beeter price on a car, have a higher income level, get paid more, get better care from Doctors or any of the other things you listed. Self-loathing whites and black people who are jealous of whites use this term as a build in excuse for blacks who fail. It’s black people’s way of scapegoating white people.
Just look at the firemen in news recently who all aced their exam and were passed over by black firemen who all failed the exam. Things like that happen every day in America. Most blk people in an elite school get about 400- 500 points lower on their SAT’s than their white counterparts. Blacks on average get 200 points less on SAT’s in general and our admitted into schools over more qualified whites.
. Race based admissions are not banned in any state. And black people benefit from race based admissions more than anybody else. That’s why there are so few blacks in medicine or science. Those fields are not race based. . More WW are on welfare because there are about 80 million more WW in the country, moron. Percentage wise, BW are the true welfare queens. But your IQ is so high you can’t figure that out.
Asians don’t benefit from AA. Asians get into elite schools and Jobs based on the same merit as whites. WW don’t get into school because they’re women. WW SAT scores and qualifications are similar to wm and Asians. The only people who benefit from AA are blacks and college athletes.
For example, I went to Tufts. Tufts is one of the top 25 schools in the nation. I had a friend there who was a hockey player. He had trouble doing Tufts level math work. So he joined a math class that was developed for people who can’t do Tufts level math courses. He told me that there were about 30 people in the class and 28 of them were black. So everybody in the lower level math class was either a dopey athlete or black.
It’s not racism. It’s this difference in mentality that explains the differences in achievement between blacks and other races. Unfortunately, this racial difference is inherent, it’s not just a bad habit blacks accidentally fell into one day and can easily come out of.
Of course, not *all* blacks fit the pattern, but the majority do, and it’s the majority that makes the difference
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My god Igor chatting c*** again.
Will he ever stop. Tune in next time folks for his over inflated opinions.
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Igor:
1. It is a fact that whites get a better deal than blacks when buying a car. It is also a fact that whites make more money for the same education than blacks, etc.
2. The white firemen in the news the other day were not passed over by blacks. The test was thrown out and no one was promoted. Of the 21 captains in the New Haven fire department only one is black, so it is nothing like what you say.
3. I said absolutely nothing about welfare and yet YOU are insulting MY intelligence. Why is that?
4. It is pretty clear you never had to live in a black ghetto. Because if you did you would know how bad the schools are and why black students need the help you speak of. You assume a level playing field where there is none.
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Abagond,
By that same reasoning, would you support an emblem that read “Gay Power”
Do you feel that group has just as much right to scream for empowerment. Also, are you in favor of gay equality in the same way.
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@abagond:
1. so, essentially we are agreeing that being part of one racial group or another is based on how people treat you? if they treat you as white then you are white, brown then you’re brown, etc and so on?
i would argue that race IS a choice. we are so heterogeneous here in the states that most of us come from myriad ethnic/racial backgrounds (a literally genetic melting pot) that to use the one-drop rule of “blackness”, or say a person is white because they “look white” seems a little simplistic. we are much more complex than that. this is even more evident in latin-america, where they tried a million different ways to categorize the variations of racial makeup, with no success.
but perhaps that is the weak part of my argument, that i choose to disregard the outside perceptions of others when forming my own identity. such naivete is not easy when you are constantly being told who and what you are… although i am used to this too, and yet here i am still calling myself, “not white, but jewish.”
2. actually, the reason i say the stuff i do is BECAUSE i understand. while i often expect the worst in humanity, it is my nature to hope for the best, and so when i see anyone indulging in behavior that doesn’t reflect the opinions they present, i question it and ask them why they don’t try harder to do better, to live up the standards they’ve expressed and set for themselves? the problem, i suppose, is that people can get defensive and upset when all i am about is helping and understanding. also, because when others see me all they see is a white man, they think i am condescending, not realizing the hypocritical prejudice they’ve committed by that very thought. it is a difficult line to walk, but i think by helping a victim from becoming a victimizer, and changing into a survivor, it stops the vicious cycle of hatred, violence, etc, that so plagues our world.
3. i talk like a white person? haha, what does a white person talk like? what does a black person talk like? be careful, i think on this point you are stereotyping me. i talk just like a person. i talk like me, not a caricature you’ve seen before. i am my own individual.
4. personally, i’ve often felt that race privilege is a smoke-screen hiding class privilege, but i can’t deny your own experiences except to relate to you mine.
in my neighborhood in super-republican orange county, the most protected communities were the asian communities at the interior of the county. why? at first many people protested the increased police patrols, the higher concentration of fire-stations, and the better level of public services in general in those areas. many thought it was racially motivated, or economically motivated. (many of the people from the asian community there worked high-paying jobs with IT companies). but when the county held an open-forum to debate the issue, it turned-out the reason was to protect them from forest-fires, which are a habitual danger during the late summer/early fall months in southern california. the communities being better protected were at higher risk than those on the coast for wildfires burning down their houses, and this was confirmed by geographic studies from UCI, and experience by the local fire departments.
so, what at first seemed like a racial/class issue, that could’ve devolved into lots of hatred and violence, instead dissolved itself in the understanding by a few city officials telling people WHY something was being done at the same time as doing it.
5. the things you list seem to be things that one can hardly easily qualify. how do you back these up other than your own personal experience? how do you know a white person is less likely to be out of work for a given level of education? or get better care from doctors? how do you measure the comparison between one white person being told they are no good to the thousand ways a black person might be told they are no good? there are so many variables to affect these situations that looking at them in a vacuum seems almost willfully ostrich-like. and looking at them with the variables would then create such complexity as to obscure whether race was even a factor at all.
i guess what i am saying is describe your epistemology. how do you know what you know? that is one of the keys to understanding each other.
@dan: i responded to your comment on my blog, if you care to read it. it answers your comments here too, by virtue of it’s length, haha.
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I’ve been following this debate (but not commenting since I’ve had a busy school week), so hopefully I can articulate my opinions in a way that makes sense.
1. As far as the “White people are more likely to have X than Black people” arguments, many of them are based in scientific research. A quick scan of any good psychology research database will garner thousands of articles on the topic (discrimination research is big right now). However (and I’ll try to explain this without getting too nerdy :-P), in scientific research you can never prove anything. You can demonstrate significant correlations (associations between variables) but you can’t prove, for instance, that being White causes one to get a better job (for the reason above in addition to the fact that Whiteness is a categorical variable, but that’s another issue).
2. So, if we can’t prove anything, what do we do? It’s my opinion that the continual argument of whether X finding is valid or not just keeps arguments going in circles. At some point we have to grant that, yea, research shows this trend consistently, so we’ll assume it’s true. I’m not saying one has to grant others’ anecdotal evidence (i.e., “I have a friend who…”), but scientifically granted, peer-reviewed articles shouldn’t consistently be challenged (without good reason). It’s like when people speculate on a TV show(I’m a big fan of TWOP). There’s always the inevitable, “Well we aren’t so-and-so, so we can’t talk about…” argument. If that’s the case, that one can only talk about subjects that he knows with absolute certainty, doesn’t that mean we can’t discuss anything? And that defeats the purpose of dialogue, which is the common goal, no?
3. Zek, I agree that in the US (and maybe the world), what you look like determines what race people perceive you as, and their attitudes toward that race will likely be reflected in their interactions with you. I don’t think that because you “look” white you have to identify as white, but it’s naive to think that people won’t perceive you as such. Wouldn’t you look at me crazy if you met me and I told you I was White? It’s not fair, especially for those on the cusps of different groups (do you consider your jewish heritage to be your race, or your ethnicity, or both?), but it’s reality. In my opinion, if you say you are Jewish, you’re Jewish, but I realize a lot of people don’t see it that way.
4. I think the race privelege and class privelege discussions need to happen at the same time, because there is a lot of overlap there. Going to a prestigious, private university (that costs a s***load), those who don’t fit the status quo (i.e., wealthy non-White students and poor White students, of which I am neither) can often run into awkward situations. Several of the White students confess that it can be stressful keeping up with the Joneses, because their friends assume that they are wealthy and can afford to eat Jimmy John’s every night instead of dining hall fare. Similarly, some of the non-White students (my only personal experience with this has been with Black people, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen to non-Blacks as well) feel pressure to “keep it real” and act as if they are from “the hood” even though few are.
I will stop now, before this turns into a novel, but thanks Abagond (and OP) for some food for thought.
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the white privilege applies to me, but no as much as a pure white.
I still get called a dirty mexican (although I am half asian) from time to time
Also I have been finding it hard to get a job recently, I reckon because of my unusual foreign sounding name. My qualifications and experience are outstanding, yet somehow some whiteboy with less always seems to beat me to the job…they say I’m paranoid..I see a pattern
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Zek, you say that “to use the one-drop rule of ‘blackness’, or say a person is white because they ‘look white’ seems a little simplistic.” It is simplistic, but it is also the indisputable reality of America. There is a wealth of literature explaining the socio-economic rationale behind the one-drop rule to determine who is black and why whites (the group with power) established this.
In the post at your blog, you say that after seeing the Black Power sign, you “almost wanted to stop and ask them if they thought Blacks were better than Whites.” The “Black Power” slogan has never been an assertion that blacks are “better” than whites. It is a reference to the empowerment of blacks, which is logical and appropriate given that in America blacks have historically, socially, legally and institutionally been deprived of power. White power saw to it that this inequality and power imbalance was maintained and enforced through various rules and structures throughout society. The civil rights movement was all about a response to that lack of power.
Most would agree that there has been much progress made since the time of the civil rights movement. However, the playing field has NOT been made completely level within the last few decades, nor has race become an irrelevant issue. Deeply embeddded structural power imbalances (and the ideologies that try to support/justify those imbalances) have not all been eradicated. Suggesting that there has been full resolution of these issues is dangerous because it implies that there’s no more work to be done at a deep, structural level. Lingering power imbalances and inequalities need to be identified before they can be addressed, and we can’t identify them if we’ve already concluded that they don’t exist.
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@jasmin:
1. that is my concern. anecdotal evidence and trends make it easy to mislabel/misrepresent things as racist, when they may be something else entirely. the subtlety of who defines racism, the how, the why, and all other manner of epistemological questions are why i question people’s assumptions about racism in america. not to say that it doesn’t exist, but to examine in what form it does, what causes it, what are its effects, and how is all this determined?
2. see, i want to have a discussion about these questions and issues. engage in an open-dialogue, but for how people perceive me, i am often excluded or negatively received, thus showing me the level of tolerance other groups are willing to give in regards to race-relations. this is funny, sad, ironic and dangerously hypocritical because it is the preconceptions that white people are incapable of talking about race. (especially since i don’t consider myself white, but jewish.)
3. if you told me you were white, yeah, i would probably cock my head in confusion a little. but at the same time, the issue is not always black or white (haha) because how do you define mulatto, creole, and other mixed children? do you categorize them based on appearance? or on their own personal choice with whatever group they feel comfortable with? and if that choice conflicts with outward appearance, how do we reconcile that?
4. i see your point on race/class privilege (i am definitely part of the poor white students) but feel that one can obscure the other as people get offended if they think their race is being unfairly criticized. even more, i like to move the discussion away from race to avoid talking about just one group in particular that can then cause others to be diminished in importance during the conversation.
all in all, you raise a lot of good points that i wish people would talk about to me when i ask about race.
@susan: but doesn’t the black community still have it’s own issues with the one-drop rule? as i understand it, many mixed-children are automatically categorized by their parents, even though their appearance is obviously not one or the other.
also, despite the historical tradition of one-drop rules and racial categories, aren’t we supposed to be moving away from these ignorant ideas?
the reason i was so affected by the black power sign is because i am too young to see it in the context of black empowerment. by the time i was born, blacks were already being empowered. and as i said, when i compared that to white power signs, it made me feel like a black person might when see one. white power says white supremacy, and so for me, i felt that black power said black supremacy. i can admit, this is an irrational fear, because obviously most people do not interpret the signs these ways. but it does raise an interesting point… why is black power empowerment and white power supremist? because white is the dominant culture? it doesn’t seem so when white culture coopts other cultures to form our american hodge-podge.
i do not think we have had full resolution of racial tension in our country, and identifying what racism is now in these modern times is my primary goal as far as this conversation and others like it are concerned.
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Zek, you’re correct that the black community has it’s own issues regarding skin colour and the implications of the one-drop rule, and we should be moving away from these ignorant ideas. There’s evidence that there has been movement, eg: mixed race individuals self-identifying as “bi-racial” is a fairly recent development. But that societal structures, perceptions, and embedded belief systems are still present.
Re: black “empowerment” vs. white “supremacy”, a lot of the difference has to do with context and the use of power – both historical and current. For centuries white power in America meant slavery, promoting the view of blacks as inferior/sub-human, oppression, exclusion, violence and brutality, eg: lynching. The important thing to note is that it wasn’t just a few racist individuals behaving badly; all of the aforementioned was sanctioned and legitimized through societal laws and rules. Historically “white power” in America has been about establishing, maintaining, an justifying inequality, taken to horrific extremes which we hope never to witness again.
So while “black power” emerged to try and achieve equality, there is a longstanding history of “white power” being used to oppress and achieve/maintain inequality. I’d say this is a big part of how we arrive at “black power” vs. “white supremacy”, and why the latter is typically viewed as negative/threatening.
Even though America has to a certain extent become a melting pot of various cultures, there is still white dominance in key societal areas of power and influence such as the press, the courts, etc. as cited by Abagond in the main post.
I agree that we need to identify racism as it is today, which is different to how it was decades and centuries ago. I think it’s a lot more challenging to identify it today, because things are often not as overt and clear-cut as they were in the past.
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zek says:
why is black power empowerment and white power supremist? because white is the dominant culture? it doesn’t seem so when white culture coopts other cultures to form our american hodge-podge.
It has little to do with culture. It has to do with who has power and how much and whether they use it in a racist way.
Blacks will tend to want to help blacks. That is not a big issue so long as they are the underdog. If they ever got on top, like if Obama became a dictator and set up a black ruling class, then it would become a huge issue.
Whites have power over American society as a whole. With that comes the responsibility to use it wisely for the benefit of all and not just for their own race.
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The One Drop Rule is ignorant, simplistic and all that but it still seems to be in effect – though as Susan points out, it might be starting to change. As long as it does hold, race is not a choice unless you look ambiguous.
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Zek,
1. I prefer when people provide “real” evidence to back up their points (one of my majors is Psychology, so anecdotal evidence bugs me!), but I realize that not everyone has access to that information, and I’m sure some people don’t want to be bothered. I guess the only thing you (or I) can do is to look for the evidence yourself, and then base your opinions on that.
2. I don’t think I’ve had many discussions about race online, so I can’t relate to your experiences, but I think maybe talking about these issues face-to-face is ultimately a better idea (for all of us). One, because it makes it easier to get clarifications, take tone into account etc. Two, because I in-person discussions occur in a more controlled environment than the internet. Three (and most importantly), face-to-face conversations make it easier to eliminate the s***-starters because (IMO) only people who truly care about the issue will participate. It’s easy to say whatever online, but some of the people so eager to talk about race relations are the same people who use the N-word on a regular basis (I really don’t like it, no matter what race the person is), but of course we don’t know that. Someone genuinely committed to fostering better race relations will do more than comment on blogs–they will use that passion in the real world.
3. Like I said when I mentioned your Jewishness (hope that’s a word!) I feel people have the right to identify however they want to identify, yet it is generally less frustrating to take society’s perceptions into account when forming an identity. If you are half Black, half White and look even a smidge Black, people will label you as such. If you call yourself White, many will laugh or accuse you of being “ashamed of your Blackness”. It’s unfortunate that labelling yourself is considered a political statement, but that won’t change any time soon. As long as the people who are important to you respect your identity, that should be enough. Personally, I’m not a fan of the term “biracial” because it doesn’t specify anything (i.e., What do a half-White, half-Asian person and a half-Black, half-Asian person have in common racially?), but if you (the general you) want to call yourself that, it’s not my concern. Lol, the word mulatto has so many meanings that I don’t even use it, except when I’m speaking Spanish, and then it’s usually within a historical context. I have 2 friends who are Creole, and they both identify as Creole, but one doesn’t seem to have a problem with people calling her Black, whereas the other…is kind of a mystery.
4.i see your point on race/class privilege (i am definitely part of the poor white students) but feel that one can obscure the other as people get offended if they think their race is being unfairly criticized.
Can you elaborate on this? I’m not sure what you are getting at when you talk about a race being unfairly criticized.
5. It’s funny that you write about being too young to understand the intention of the “Black Power” sign, which leads you to link it to Black supremacy, because I would say that I am too young to find the Black Power sign relevant. I understand the historical context/importance, but if Black Power signs were banned tomorrow I probably wouldn’t care. I would hope that people who are champions of modern Black Power would reference it in talking about an achievement in the Black Community, like the Obama presidency, that presents a positive example of Black achievement. That’s how I’ve always understood it, but I’ve noticed that as I get older I’m more reluctant to ascribe the victory of an individual Black person as a “win for the BC,” just as I don’t want the crime on one Black person to be seen as reflective of the whole group.
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zek says:
this is funny, sad, ironic and dangerously hypocritical because it is the preconceptions that white people are incapable of talking about race.
Well, the sad truth is, most white people cannot talk about race in an open-minded, serious way. They are too busy trying to prove racism away, defending their own self-image as a good white person, doubting your experience, even your facts, all the rest. They are experts at not taking what black people say seriously. They put up walls and have a hundred defences.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Part of why I picked on your post is because you seem open-minded and intellectually honest enough.
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I am rereading my post above and I see something that’s not clear: With my biracial example, I was trying to explain how “biracial” doesn’t make sense as a category to me because biracial people don’t have a shared culture by virtue of being mixed-race people. It seems like a very large category that necessarily must be divided into subcategories to make sense.
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Right: “biracial” means two races, but it does not say which two. Being half white and half Asian in America is very different than being half white and half black. And even with the black-and-white biracials, it makes a big difference in how black you look and whether you can pass for white, etc.
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zeks says:
3. i talk like a white person? haha, what does a white person talk like? what does a black person talk like? be careful, i think on this point you are stereotyping me. i talk just like a person. i talk like me, not a caricature you’ve seen before. i am my own individual.
Because you say the things that mainly white people say:
– Racism is not a big deal any more. It is mainly a case of a few bad apples.
– Thinking of yourself as raceless, as an individual, not as white
– Being quick to point out cases of black racism or reverse racism while being blind to white racism
– Overlooking the difference in power between blacks and whites
– Being blind to white privilege
– Trying to make things about class not race – the Anything But Race argument
– Racism must be “proved”
Not to say that these things are all necessarily wrong in so far as they go, just that it is white people who are quick to use them. Because each of them avoids coming face to face with white racism. They are part of their defences.
So while you think of yourself as an individual, as not being white, you say the things that I have heard from white people over and over again.
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canalpublishing said in comment #7,
By that same reasoning, would you support an emblem that read “Gay Power”
Do you feel that group has just as much right to scream for empowerment. Also, are you in favor of gay equality in the same way.
That is off topic, but the short answer is yes, they have the right, not that I would always agree with what they want.
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@susan: i understand the cultural connotations with white power, especially as people link it to maintaining a racist status-quo. however, as a poor jewish student, i have a hard time seeing the power structure of institutional racism. i receive no obvious benefits, and actually get lots of negative reception amongst minority groups simply by my presence (whether in-person or via conversation).
but with a black president, how do you justify institutional racism now? the entire system is literally run by a black man. how do we redefine the concept of institutional racism? or if indeed the concept is no longer valid (which is something i am beginning to believe) then what are the remaining causes/effects of racism in america?
while white power is typically viewed as the dominant group reasserting its dominance, in these moderns times where white is fast losing its place as the majority, white power would lose that perception and become similar to black power, which is simply about groups asserting/empowering their racial identity.
personally, i am all for keeping black power signs, so long as signs by other races (e.g. yellow power, red power, white power, brown power) are culturally acceptable. obviously this will take a long time to happen, but it’s something i am interested in discussing.
@jasmin: yes, i can elaborate that point for you.
what i meant was that when talking about class and race together, that the emotional affects of race on people can cause the issue to become more about knee-jerk reactions and hurt feelings than about an open-dialogue and progress towards increasing racial equality. for example, as a white man talking about race, my criticisms are normally perceived as ignorant and possibly racist. as i rush to defend my right to participate equally in the conversation, others will tell me that by not-seeing their perspective (whether it be solely because of my skin-color, or simply my own experiences being related to anti-semitism instead of race, though i find jewishness analogous to race in many cases) the whole dialogue becomes more about who offended who than anything else.
essentially, talking about race in conjunction with other issues has the potential to derail conversations because of people’s own problems “keeping their cool.”
this is probably not a good excuse to exclude race from the conversation, but it is something i wish more people were aware of so that it would not happen.
@abagond: i think white’s have less power over american society than you think. and of the power they do have, most is controlled by rich, strictly anglo-whites, who do not represent the majority of “white america.” for instance, the middle-class is composed mainly of whites, and yet they are as subordinated by the power structure in this country as any other group. this can be seen in how they are often convinced to vote for leaders that do not truly represent them, their problems with debt, with jobs, with healthcare, etc.
while i cannot deny that when you look at the faces on the wall of our country’s leader, they are all pretty much white. yet, with the changes occurring in our world these days (especially with globalization) post-racial is a concept we as a people are close to achieving.
and since minority groups, as well as immigrant groups continue to grow in population, the white power structure has eroded considerably compared to the civil right’s era.
as for your comment that i “say the things that I [you] have heard from white people over and over again.” i would appreciate you taking my opinions without the preconceptions attached to many people as they consider my talking about race. not all white people are alike… not all PEOPLE are alike, and while it is often convenient to make assumptions based on prior experiences, it tends to also be condescending and/or ignorant in the context of talking about equality and/or race.
however, i do fall into many of those “categories” you posted. however, the same could be said of bi-racial/multi-racial peoples. the concept of “the other” in a world where diversity is so widespread, starts to lose its meaning. so, i would say that only am i raceless, but we are all raceless, and this is certainly true in how i approach the world.
my opinions on “white privilege” have already been explained, but i will reiterate that i have received no benefits for being white. i DO receive benefits for being jewish, such as my bar’mitzvah, birthright trips to israel, hebrew school, etc. these are things all jewish kids get, regardless of racial makeup, and even those who come from countries like iran, syria and ethiopia, which have vibrant jewish communities.
but as for my “white privilege”, there is no such thing for me. and as for whites that are not jewish, i still do not see much benefit to being white compared to being black when many college scholarships are either race-neutral or minority-group specific, when white trash exist right alongside black urban ghettos, when asians are more likely to receive jobs in IT areas compared to other groups, when latinos are better equipped for international relations jobs due to most being brought up bi-lingual, when blacks by and large dominant american athletics such as football, basketball, track and field, etc (note: athletic superiority does not correlate to intellectual inferiority, and are many of these examples interesting instances of positive racism? this another concept i am curious about).
while i don’t deny that many whites have a much easier start than other racial groups, to say there is such a thing as “white privilege” seems to hold the hidden assumption that other racial groups do not help each other either, and thus create their own version of racial “privilege.” this is not the case with latinos or asians. is it different in the black community?
all in all, i am not trying to prove racism away, nor do i deny its continued existence. i am fully aware of many of the problems affecting people on a race-basis in this country (and the rest of the world) but having experienced comparable situations, i feel justified in critiquing the subject. most importantly, i would like to learn about the different ways in which people define racism, because while it is not an opinion, we all obviously approach the term with different denotations to connotations.
so, feel free to pick on my posts, because i am happy to be wrong, if the end result is understanding.
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Zek,
You asked: “but with a black president, how do you justify institutional racism now?” I would say that the presence of a black individual with authority in an institution does not automatically mean that deeply entrenched beliefs and ideologies have been eradicated from that institution.
For example, the police force in my city hires black police officers and has black individuals in positions of authority. In spite of this, the force acknowledged the presence of inaccurate, negatively biased attitudes towards blacks. Once acknowledged, steps could be taken to start addressing these attitudes.
When I refer to “institutional” racism, I’m often referring to the deeply entrenched beliefs and ideologies held by people within those institutions – sometimes so deep that they go unnoticed or become part of what’s considered “normal.” While the presence of a black president is evidence that some of those beliefs and ideologies may have changed, I don’t think it means that all such beliefs and ideologies have been eradicated.
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I don’t think you can compare Black Power to White Power, the word “power” takes on different meaning in both cases. Black Power speaks of fairness, liberation and not being punished into running from one’s identity. White Power is a hate/fear driven ideal that centers around the idea that everyone is inferior to whites and should be oppressed or isolated or exterminated or all of the above, its about “racial purity” and domination. Two very very different ideas.
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mr. zek j evets,
Probably you have many time constraints that may hinder you from reading something that isn’t relevant to your academic studies, but I think that your argument might benefit & be a more balanced view of race in the U.S. with some suggested reading . Here’s my rec: “Lies My Teacher Told Me” (James Loewen).
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In the context of America society, “race” is an invented construct that is used, PRIMARILY, to promote/enforce White supremacy/privilege of those who are White/perceived to be White AGAINST those who are Black/perceived to be Black.
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Zek,
I see what you mean, but I’m not sure I agree (if this is what you are implying) that the negative effects of talking about class and race only happen in those “combined” discussions. Doesn’t the same thing happen when conversations are just about race? I don’t see what this:
what i meant was that when talking about class and race together,
has to do with the rest of the paragraph. Once I got to the last paragraph, I realized (correctly, I hope) that you are using class as an example but overall referring to any topic that is often paired with race. I guess I thought you were saying something specific about “class & race” since you used that example multiple times.
Susan,
This:
When I refer to “institutional” racism, I’m often referring to the deeply entrenched beliefs and ideologies held by people within those institutions – sometimes so deep that they go unnoticed or become part of what’s considered “normal.” While the presence of a black president is evidence that some of those beliefs and ideologies may have changed, I don’t think it means that all such beliefs and ideologies have been eradicated.
is genius. It explains (in part) why the university I attend is only 2% Black (and the numbers go down every year) even though it’s been around since 1842. It explains mega-firms with only one Black exec out of 100s. It explains why I’m so glad my parents didn’t name me “Shaniqua” because my resume would’ve automatically been placed in the circular file 9 times out of 10. My general opinion is that the modern scourge of racism is a problem of ideology, not action. You can arrest someone for lynching, but can you arrest him for thinking Blacks are inferior (and subsequently not hiring any qualified Black people)? It’s impossible to improve intent, which makes it easy for the “undercover racist” to get by.
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@ Abogond:
“That is off topic, but the short answer is yes, they have the right, not that I would always agree with what they want.”
1. Not sure how it is off topic as it is a group that is discriminated against and needs to fight for their rights.
2. What do you mean you don’t agree with that they want. Don’t you feel gay people should have the equal rights in every area?
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In general gays should have equal rights like everyone else, but I would not extend that to same-sex marriage. I think that sex between two men or two women is a sin. As a part of one’s private life it should not affect the decisions of employers and landlords, for example. It is none of their business. But to base marriage on it is another matter.
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Zek:
True, most whites do not have much power but most of the people who do have power are white and enough of them exercise it in a racist way that it matters.
Privilege is the sort of thing you take for granted. But that does not mean it is not there. For example, you live in a country where most people speak your language. But that is not true for everyone in America. Yet you think you have no advantages in life. But you do. I just named one.
Some of these advantages are based on race. I listed some (in comment #3). Most of them will not apply to you till you get out of school. But already your education is probably better than it would have been if you were black. And, already, internalized racism and colourism is not an issue for you. Also, you live in a culture that supports your identity – so well that you think of yourself as raceless.
You are like a fish in water who does not know what it is like to be on dry land.
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Zek:
Jews seem to have a better understanding of what it is like to be black than most whites, but I would not get too carried away with that. The feelings white Americans have against blacks is way stronger and uglier than what they have against Jews. Jews are seen as smart and seen as white. Blacks are not. Also being Jewish is often something you can hide. You can never hide being black, not in person at least, not unless you can pass for white.
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Zek:
Asians in IT: haha. Not funny. They still get paid less than whites with the same education. And they still come up against a glass ceiling.
In one place I worked about half the programmers were Asian but only about a sixth of the managers were. And this was in a company where merit mattered more than in most. The management was made up mostly of white American men even though the workforce was not.
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A Sin? Who are you to say what is a sin and what is not?
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i just wanted to say something, dont know if its been said or not, im not apart of the conversation going on in the comments, nor do i want to be, i just wanted to say something, that i have been thinking about the last few days that kinda ties in with one of Abagond’s points in his post.
i think america, is probably the only country with a simple racial system.
when i say simple, i dont mean considerate or fair, just simple.
there is your skin color (race), and then there is your title (ethnicity). my title is biracial (mulatto), but to people who dont know anything about me (hell, might as well say even people who do know me), i am a black girl.
in otherwords, america goes by the skin color and not your title….so if one was jewish, irish, or any of that, it doesnt really matter, as your skintone is white, and its the skin tone everyone in society goes by.
most people are about the obvious. and want to get straight to the point. they prefer what they see as to what you are. covert/closeted racism is still socially acceptable (obviously) and because of that, this kind of system is going to be in place for a long time.
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Great posts, Aba (#29-32).
Alwaysright101,
Great point. Yet, if someone sees you as black, are they wrong? Most of your fellow black Americans have white blood but as you said, skin color is the first marker of racial identity, so their genetic reality may not affect their social one.
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there is a difference between being directly mixed and indirectly mixed…i am actually biracial (product of interracial relationship), but i am also considered black, at least in american society (cant say the same for other societies since i have never been to other countries to compare).
if others see me as black, whether they are wrong, depends on the situation, and how i am feeling at the moment…i often interchange between biracial and black.
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Okay, to each their own.
Yet, you can’t forget that America, as a whole, is against the type of relationships that spurned Americans like yourself (black male/white woman). That plays a part as well.
And no matter what, YOU’LL NEVER BE SEEN AS WHITE. Ever. You can say you’re “black” or “mixed”. But never white. I find that so interesting. Blackness shuts someone from being white, it seems.
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i know america is very against interracial relationships, there was a controversy about it just recently in my city (its pretty segregated and racist here).
and i know i will never be seen as white.
whats interesting is not that biracial people can never be considered white (unless they can pass and keep it a secret), its that being half white only seems to matter to white people, when a biracial person does something successful…but at the same time considering them black…if you get what i mean.
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i mean “considering them black” as in black but not half white.
they make a big deal out of them being half white, yet act like they are just black (and treat them that way too)…think like what they put Obama through.
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To Abagond:
Asians in IT: haha. Not funny. They still get paid less than whites with the same education. And they still come up against a glass ceiling.
In one place I worked about half the programmers were Asian but only about a sixth of the managers were
That’s not really my experience in Silicon Valley, a good chunk of the managers in my company are South Asian (Indian..) for some reason there are substantially fewer East Asian managers as a percentage of the employees and when they are managers they tend to American born and/or raised. If you count Iranians as Asians (they are from the continent of Asia..) they seem to be over represented as managers.
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How much is a good chunk?
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Asians don’t get paid less than whites with the same education. White men run the company because they created the company. Go to any Asian nation and you will see all Asians running companies.
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canalpublishing said:
A Sin? Who are you to say what is a sin and what is not?
I have ideas of what is moral and what is immoral – everyone does – and I have to go by that on issues like same-sex marriage and abortion.
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AlwaysRight101:
Good comments.
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Right. Well then, I guess we see that you yourself have bigotry against a group because of who they are and how they were born.
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I wrote a post about my supposed homophobia:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/am-i-homophobic/
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@abagond: i can’t agree with speaking english to be a privilege that i have. why? because many jobs now ask if you are bi-lingual. speaking more than one language is preferred. and having grown up in southern california, speaking spanish is actually NECESSARY for many higher-paying jobs. you have to know at least a little, or you’ll never get promoted, because you can’t relate to the large customer base that spanish-speaking citizens represent.
also, asians in IT do hold as many managerial positions as whites do. the silicon valley that milton brings up is one other example. orange county is mine. but there are others, and they exist all over california, from sac-town to san diego to the imperial valley. and even more, indians compromise a large group in upper-level IT companies as well. there is really no glass-ceiling for these groups anymore than there are for whites. but if you had statistics refuting me, i’d love to see them.
and while i cringe that you just tried to compare my “positive” stereotypes to your “negative” stereotype (in that you’re equating one form of discrimination to another, to say that one is worse – is it really?) being jewish affected me in school in a strangely converse way to how it has affected black youth. i was given no leeway in my studies by my teachers because they assumed that since i was jewish i was “smarter” than everybody else. so, if i missed an assignment, or didn’t write as good a paper, my grades were affected more significantly than the other students. i didn’t get a make-up. i didn’t get a grade-curve. also, the condescension of being nicer to me during christmas because i “wouldn’t be celebrating” was almost insulting, if i didn’t think they were trying to be nice – albeit ignorantly.
i grew up in as conservative a county as anywhere else in the country, and yet i see no advantages that i was given for being white (even as a jew that could pass for white) and still managed to find discrimination (subtle or unsubtle – like when neo-nazis graffiti’d my temple, or tried to beat me up in school) and have come to remarkably different conclusions about race than those you have written about on this blog.
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Zek:
I will try to find out if there have been any studies on glass ceilings for Asians in American IT.
I agree with the observation made by Uncle Milton that South Asians are favoured over East Asians in management. There is probably less of a glass ceiling for South Asians but I believe it is still there. I have had South Asian managers, so it is not like they are completely shut out, but in my experience they still seem underrepresented. But maybe I am wrong.
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Zek:
1. Knowing English gives you a huge advantage over those who know just Spanish or whatever. Your example is drawing attention away from that.
2. That your teachers expected more of you is an ADVANTAGE. A huge one. The trouble that blacks have is that teachers do not expect enough of them.
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Zek:
If you – or anyone – wants to write a post, “Jewish people understand what it is like to be black” that is 500 words or less I will gladly post it or cross-post it. I would be interested not just in the post itself but also in what kind of comments it would get.
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Zek:
I read your post on your blog about debating race. You should read this if you have not already:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/the-r-word/
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@abagond:
1. i’ll concede knowing only english is an advantage over knowing only spanish, but on this side of the country (at least) knowing multiple languages is the ideal. the case in san francisc is the trifecta of: spanish, english, and cantonese.
2. i think we’re coming back to positive stereotypes versus negative stereotypes. being EXPECTED to succeed can cause just as much difficulty as a person who is EXPECTED not to succeed. (i.e. pressure, stress, overwhelming feelings, fear of disappointment, etc.) it’s a converse situation, i’ll admit, but the point is there that any stereotype that changes your behavior from one person to the next can have an ugly impact.
3. i don’t think jews know what it’s like to be black people, nor do blacks know what it’s like to be jewish. i think being human transcends that entirely. we understand each other as people, and that is how you find common ground.
also, i read your post about the r-word, and while you raise an interesting perspective, the effects seem counter-productive to your goals. however, i have similar issues, so i won’t say for you to stop.
however, for me personally, i don’t like being called a racist (any more than i like being called white) is because i’m not. i am just plain not a racist. i make racist jokes, laugh at stereotypes, watch shows that indulge in caricatures (from the boondocks to looney tunes) and even read books that are blatantly racist (heart of darkness comes to mind), yet through all of that coupled with my own experiences, i hold no group superior to another, or disparage one group more than another. i hold equality in both the good and the bad. i feel that many people are the same way, and when you call them a racist, you are calling them something they are not, much the same way as when someone would call a black person “nigger”. they are not “niggers” they are people.
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To Abagond:
Re: Asian Indians as managers
How much is a good chunk?
I’d say the number of Asian Indian workers is around 40% and the percentage of Asian Indian managers is around 25%. One could point to those figures and say there is an imbalance but I know we have quite a few contractors and H1B visa holders both situations which basically preclude one from being a manager.
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Zek:
Most whites think they are not racist. But since they are not at the receiving end of whatever racism they might have, they are rather poor judges of that.
According to one test of racism 83% of Americans are racist to some degree. It is called the Implicit Association Test:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/iat-implicit-association-test/
If you go to that post there is a link to the website which has the test. You can take it online. Pretty interesting.
Both Siditty and I took the test. She turned out not to be racist. I, on the other hand, moderately favour blacks. So, yes, I am racist. But I freely admit that:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/i-am-racist/
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i’m not sure how many white people in their life are subject to racism, but speaking from my own experiences, i feel that most people i’ve met (and myself included) have experienced some form of discrimination, if not outright bigotry at some point in their life.
that test was VERY interesting, and i kinda want to think about its results for me (which was moderate preference for european-americans). even though i didn’t get any of the answers wrong, it said i took less time to sort the european faces.
strange that siditty tested not racist, since she describes herself as racist, and apparently i tested racist even though i don’t describe myself that way at all…
definitely an interesting test.
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