“Empire” (2015- ) is a US television show that stars Terrence Howard and Taraji P. Henson (pictured above). It is like a Black “Dallas” (1978-1991) or “Dynasty” (1981-1989). It tells the tale of Empire, a record company, a family business that tears apart its family.
It is the most successful all-Black drama on US network television since “Roots” (1976), as far as I can remember. Maybe I am forgetting something – or maybe the networks forget to put on all-Black dramas.
Creators: Lee Daniels and Danny Strong, they who gave us “The Butler” (2013). Strong, who is White, got the idea for the show from a rap song.
Guest stars: Jennifer Hudson, Courtney Love, Cuba Gooding, Jr, Snoop Dog, Patti LaBelle and Estelle.
Recurring characters played by Gabourey Sidibe, Naomi Campbell, Malik Yoba and Tasha Smith.
Shooting locations:
- Chicago – plays New York.
- West Side of Chicago – plays West Philly.
Based on: “The Lion in Winter” (1968):
- Angevin Empire = Empire.
- France = Creedmoor, a rival record company.
- King Henry II = Lucious Lyon (Terrence Howard), head of Empire.
- Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine = Cookie Lyons (Taraji P. Henson), his ex-wife.
- their three grown but young sons:
- John = Hakeem, spoiled, the father’s favourite.
- Geoffrey = Andre, the “brains”. No one likes him.
- Richard the Lionheart = Jamal, talented, the mother’s favourite.
Lucious Lyon is sick. Doctors give him three years at best. He has to choose which of his three sons will take over Empire. Just then Cookie gets out of prison after serving 17 years on a drug charge, 12 of which she served to protect Lucious from being charged with murder. Empire was founded using her drug money. Lucious divorced her while she was in prison and now has a light-skinned girlfriend, Anika, a fan of Machiavelli (pictured below).
The first episode was powerful. In a flashback, Jamal is five wearing his mother’s high-heel shoes and scarf while Lucious is playing cards with his friends. He throws Jamal in the trash can. That is taken straight from Lee Daniels’s own life.
Cookie and her sons deep down want Lucious’s love. Money and control of the company are merely the scorecard. But Lucious is incapable of love. He does not accept Jamal because he is gay. He does not accept Andre because he lacks musical talent and is married to a White woman. He favours Hakeem, but he is not as talented as Jamal or himself.
Stereotypes: Blacks as drug dealers, killers, rappers, hoodrats, etc. Daniels comes from the same West Philly that Lucious and Cookie do, yet he is none of those things.
- Lucious Lyons plays the main stereotype White Americans have about Black men: the Black Brute or thug stereotype. Even as a successful businessman, he is still murderously violent, “reverting to type”.
- Cookie Lyons plays the main steretotype White Americans have about Black women: the Sapphire stereotype – angry, in your face, loud, making everything into a fight, hard to get along with, etc. In a show full of snakes, that can be refreshing, but it still confirms the stereotype.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
- Lee Daniels
- The Lion in Winter
- stereotypes
- Black Brute stereotype
- Sapphire stereotype
- confirmation bias
- Zora Neale Hurston on Hollywood stereotypes – more on “reverting to type”.
- Machiavelli
- Naomi Campbell – an ancient post.
- Blacks and US television
Personally, i am not interested in watching this program as it seems to be the same racial stereotypes played out.
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This is a great video by Anthony Browder. This dvd is worth purchasing. I have about ten of his dvd’s. He explains the messages that are sent to us through film and television. He describes Empire as “electronic crack”. I couldn’t more!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKfthnJYqM&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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I know I shouldn’t like this show, but it is a melodrama. Yes, Lucious and Cookie definitely have those stereotypical aspects but I don’t feel the characters are one-dimensional. They’re that way for a reason. Besides, I don’t think black artists should concern themselves too much about what white people are going to think. Are they supposed to not write about loud, combative black women or murderous thugs like Lucious. If every character is an upstanding citizen that makes for some very dull fiction. I’m actually happy to have a black version of Dallas, or even a black drama for a change. Up until very recently whenever you saw blacks on TV it was a comedy.
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Hehehe
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I like the show
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I prefer watching Black-ish (Tracee Ross Ellis) over Empire or Scandal.
The show is kinda funny though much of it seems about presenting Blackness to white people.
(If white people don’t watch/like Black TV stars on a major network, that show’s history!)
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I saw 40 minutes of one episode. No. One “mainstream” acceptable show and they manage to drown it in stereotypes. Don’t think for a second that these networks give 2 craps aboutcharacter depth and diversity and representation of black folk. They have overlords and subliminal messages to deliver to you and your children. I’m good on all of it.
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This has always been the problem with black people in America.
Black people are so starved to see other blacks on WHITE TV stations, they will watch anything and everything, that stars black people, knowing full well its not an accurate representation of Black people. For example…Scandal.
Blacks are the only race that will support, TV shows that depicts black people in stereotypical and degrading roles. Black people will tell all their friends and family about it….”hey, you gotta watch this tv show about a powerful black woman that fixes stuff for the united states government!” Leaving out the NBW role that this black woman plays.
Black people need to stop being so thirsty so see ourselves in White TV.
I rather not see no blacks on white TV at all, if they can be seen in a none stereotypical way.
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I like the show personally. Though I must admit I only really watch it for Taraji.
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I was so glad to read this post and the comments. I thought it was me.
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@Kushite Prince
Thanks for the video. Browder is great at putting things into perspective for me. Some of his points might seem obvious to some but were very eye-opening for me.
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@resw77
You’re very welcome. Browder is one of the best at breaking down the messages of films and tv shows. I’m pretty goof myself but he catches things even I miss at times. You can get some of his books and dvd’s at this website.
http://www.realityspeaksbookstore.com/nsearch.html?section=&query=Browder&searchsubmit=Search&vwcatalog=yhst-15233564164857
They have some very educational information on this site. You wont be disappointed!
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@Sondis
“Black people are so starved to see other blacks on WHITE TV stations, they will watch anything and everything, that stars black people, knowing full well its not an accurate representation of Black people. For example…Scandal.
Blacks are the only race that will support, TV shows that depicts black people in stereotypical and degrading roles. Black people will tell all their friends and family about it….”hey, you gotta watch this tv show about a powerful black woman that fixes stuff for the united states government!” Leaving out the NBW role that this black woman plays.”
Living under a system of white supremacy we have been programmed to gravitate towards that which destroys us.
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I’ve never seen the show (because I hardly watch T.V. anymore) but I understand the stereotypical nature of the show.
HOWEVER, I think we have to take this all in the context of a fiction. After all, how realistic were the White people in show’s like Dallas or Dynasty or modern shows like Suits or Grey’s Anatomy? Do those shows play into certain stereotypes? (AKA archetypes)
In other words, fictional television scripts are always going to play more into the “collective perception” than they are going to adhere to statistical realties. I don’t think that people necessarily have to stop watching or enjoying the show. Anyone watching, of course, should be aware of the stereotypes, and realize them for what they are.
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“I don’t think that people necessarily have to stop watching or enjoying the show.”
>>>>>>>
I don’t believe anyone (in their right mind) is going to watch or should enjoy anything that they find OFFENSIVE.
It’s a good thing to stand against what offends. As a collective, Black folks have pretty much gone along to get along, so to speak for the past few decades. It’s good when we begin to stand up for SOMETHING.
Your rationale of Grey’s Anatomy, Suits, Die-Nasty and Dallas rings like you’re suggesting that if white folks are okay with their mess, we too should be okay with any stereotypical BS that gets attached to us — for the purpose of entertainment.
Black people are waking up, well some of us are, and have decided that mirroring what white folks do has caused us more harm than good. Many of us desire to watch portrayals that uplift and encourage, teach and reveal who we truly are as a people – and as individuals. If we choose not to be “entertained” by what we see as offensive – that’s FORWARD MOVEMENT.
“Collective perception” be damned!
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Clearly those who find it offensive will not watch it in the first place. From what I gather, not everyone does. This is because, counter to certain stereotypes, all Black people don’t think alike, any more than we all look alike. There will likely be stereotypes in every television drama that has ever been produced. Even those who are produced by Black people.
But I agree that it’s good that Blacks should stand up for SOMETHING. I’m not sure that Empire is where I’d personally focus the fight though. I can think of a lot more places where our focus might be better served.
But I’m willing to listen. What do you suggest, Just Me?
Are you saying that no “real” Black person should watch Empire? Tell me, what other shows do you suggest should be placed on the list of banned entertainment?
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“But I’m willing to listen. What do you suggest, Just Me?”
>>>>>
I doubt that King. I think you’re more interested in arguing – otherwise you wouldn’t ask me what I’m suggesting. If you were really listening, you would have already heard me.
If prizes were given for missing the point, you’d be the undisputed champion.
Perhaps someone with more patience than I possess will break it down better for you.
I’ve got walls here I’d rather converse with.
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It sounds like you are the one arguing. to me… my advice is to save yourself the embarrassment.
And don’t try to sound condescending… you’re really not smart enough to be condescending to anyone. If you have a point to make (other than playing the T.V. Guide Policeman) then make it. II you have no point to make, then blame it on your lack of wits, not your lack of patience.
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“Do you find it bizarre that after Just Me had already asked you to stop replying to him, he replies to one of your posts with a combative tone and then turns around and accuses you of trying to start an argument?”
>>>>>>
{Here comes the expected 2:1 one tag-team move… ho-hum …. yawn…}
Kiwi,
Don’t you find it bizarre that you fail to note/count the total amount of times that King blatantly disregarded my request asking him to stop responding to me – and did so anyway?
Of course my tone may appear combative.
(Like you should talk.. LOL You’re like the number 1 bickerer/antagonist on this site!)
It’s not my writing style to correct deliberate ignorance and offense with sweet syrupy goo (BS) of politically correct niceness.
As for starting arguments, I’m afraid YOU’VE got that market cornered. I can’t begin to hold a candle to you and your never-ending white man/asian women relationship – and other – quarrelsome trips!
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I do find that bizarre Kiwi. I also find it bizarre that Just Me thinks that I’m the number 1 bickerer on this site. I seriously doubt if many other posters would agree with that. Take this thread for example.
The subject is a television show. Abagond makes his dispassionate analysis of the show, which is mostly descriptive/informational but includes an analysis of the stereotypical elements present. The same could be done for almost any show in which Blacks play a prominent role. There are always stereotypes to consider.
So… Poetess admits that, despite the stereotypes, she enjoys watching the show. Mary Burrell says that she likes the show. Sharinalr says that she too enjoys the show. About halfway down the thread I make a statement that says the following.
1) I’ve never seen the show but I understand the stereotypical elements.
2) HOWEVER, I point out that ALL episodic television is written based on fantasy and uses archetypical characters. I state that writers tap into “collective perceptions” about how people act and live – their job is not to educate the pubic about real life, but rather, to tell stories that entertain. So, rich people are stereotyped, police culture is stereotyped, hospital settings are stereotyped, Mafia culture is stereotyped, romance is stereotyped… almost EVERYTHING is stereotyped to some degree, because these are not documentaries exposing how people live – they are FANTASIES.
3) I conclude by saying that I don’t think that people necessarily have to stop watching or enjoying the show. But that people watching, should be aware of the stereotypes, and realize them for what they are.
That is not a controversial statement.
Then Colonel “Just Me” of the Blackstapo jumps in!!!
So then… based on that, Poetess, Mary Burrell, and Sharinalr are not “in their right mind” because they enjoy watching the show. Anyone who watches the show is clearly insane. This is once again an example of Just Me trying to set the standard of Black sanity for everybody else. It only the weak-minded and emotionally insecure who feel the need to control the behavior and opinions of others.
I reply to him:
I also ask a question:
Of course, Just Me doesn’t answer the question because he doesn’t really have any answers. He’s never really thought any of this through. He just likes the idea of jumping on the ‘Ban Wagon’ and pushing that all non-insane people should not watch the show! (As if grown adults couldn’t make their own viewing choices based on their own assessments, rather than their skin color.)
Just Me is clearly insecure about his own Black identity. That is why he feels the need to impose his opinions (such as they are) upon everybody else, as the True Standard of Black conduct. Because he is immature, he believes that all Black people should be in lockstep with his own ideas, and gets aggravated when anyone begins challenging his precious perception of acceptable Blackness.
I hope that he will come to realize that his opinion is just that.. HIS opinion. He does not stand for Black people. He has not been elected, or chosen as a leader, He does not have any power. He should simply give his opinion, listen to those of others, and debate ideas based on their merits, not based his own measure of how HE thinks Blacks should live.
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I have never watched “Empire”. Lee Daniels along with the other actors are placing career over ethics. I don’t have a problem with that except for the size of the platform they occupy and the lack of an alternative vision. Perhaps sensationalism should be recognized and qualified for what it is. TV isn’t your local library or a course in AA studies.
I also disagree with anyone who suggests that Amos N’ Andy is in the same catagory of “harmless” slapstick comedy as the Three Stooges.The ratings for “Empire” denote to Hollywood that we approve of being stereotyped as thugs and whores and the system won’t change until we stop allowing a black “pied piper” in the person of Lee Daniels, a distinctly soul selling individual, to “produce for profit” a warped vision of black success.
To paraphrase: “Entertainment isn’t one size fits all, but I know it when I see it”
I’m curious about why Daniels is sought after more than a leigon of AA writers in Hollywood who labor in relative obscurity while writing and producing some of our favorite shows both past and present. Could it be that he has always suggested that he’s a go-along-to get-along negro and admonishes, publicly, any AA’s in Hollywood who don’t agree with his position..??
.
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“I do find that bizarre Kiwi. I also find it bizarre that Just Me thinks that I’m the number 1 bickerer on this site.”
>>>>>
@ King
LOL
Oooooookay…..
That about demonstrates and says everything.
You need to get help for your dyslexia, or whatever your issue is.
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@ Black Sci-Fi
I agree with you on this point.
The problem is not that Black criminals are displayed in storylines (they do exist)
The problem in not that Black hoe’s are displayed in storylines (they do exist)
The problem is when the entire industry tilts toward showing these types of characters without balancing it out with more successful, productive, Black characters. The question I suppose would be to discover if this is the case? On television today do the Black thugs and hoe’s outnumber the doctors, lawyers. nurses, police detectives, businessmen, Judges, Senators, etc.
Do you know the to that question?
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“TV isn’t your local library or a course in AA studies.”—Agree.
For me the show is simple entertainment. Sure it has a stereotypical view of blacks, but I don’t look to anything on tv as an accurate depiction of the diversity among blacks in America. Same as if I was looking at a Korean drama. I don’t think the that means that all Korean mothers are money hungry psychos willing to defy the law to ensure their children marry good.
Not to mention anything mainstream needs to be taken with a grain of salt anyway. If I want a tv show with a diverse black cast then youtube has a great variety.
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I love the music soundtrack. I love the song “No Apologies” No apologies for liking this show.
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^^^I agree Mary.
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I can’t stand Terrence Howard, so wasn’t going to watch Empire from the jump. Funny, how there is nothing new under the sun, never even heard of The Lion in Winter. My guilty pleasures are in Shondaland, some shows on the OWN network, and various webseries*. (*Special shout out to FIRST & RoomiesLoversFriends)
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@ Sharina
@Mary
My comment was in no way a slight towards either of you.
King (who is clearly ‘reading challenged’ – among other things) would have you believe, if it were possible by twisting my words, that I was coming down on anyone who likes the show.
I was not. That’s not what I said.
King – who admits he’s NEVER SEEN the show – says:
.
“I don’t think that people necessarily have to stop watching or enjoying the show.”
.
This an especially peculiar AND strange comment to people who have viewed the show from a person who hasn’t watch it!
He’s essentially saying to the people that are OFFENDED by the onslaught of stereotypical portrayals on that show that they shouldn’t have to stop looking at something that offends them.
What a bunch of GALL & NERVE ! Absolutely APPALLING!
Why would a (supposedly intelligent) person say this?
Here’s his *strange* justification/reasoning as to why “we” should watch it (keeping in mind he hasn’t watched not one episode).
.
“… I think we have to take this all in the context of a fiction.
After all, how realistic were the White people in show’s like Dallas or Dynasty or modern shows like Suits or Grey’s Anatomy?”
“… television scripts are always going to play more into the “collective perception” than they are going to adhere to statistical realties.”
.
You see, in King’s reality, we should just put aside OUR OFFENSE and OBJECTION to stereotypical portrayals of us and ignore what our hearts and minds are telling us what to do (stop watching/supporting) – because it’s fiction – AND because that’s what WHITE people do….
-we should accept and be entertained by their “collective perception” of us.
I guess King doesn’t yet realize that EVERYTHING shown on TV – where Black people are concerned – IS managed FICTION, presented as well as they possibly can, for EVERYONE’S consumption/entertainment/mind-control.
.
He’ll have us watching their worst presentation of us, if he could – even if he doesn’t watch it himself.
King, somehow, perhaps in his egotistical raging, can’t seem to grasp that I’m not coming down so much on this show as much as I’m coming down on his comment that suggests to people who have issues with the show should continue to watch that which offends… because white people do it.
Apparently King (white apologist) finds white TV execs offenses against Black people, even the subtle ones, acceptable, if it’s done just right.
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Eh…
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King,
You are not ‘reading challenged’. 😉
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{LOL … now enters tag team member #3… with: .. }
.
“King,
You are not ‘reading challenged’.”
.
>>>>>>>
.
King is reading challenged, or he’s a simpleton (dummy)!
The proof stands irrefutable – for anyone with eyes to read!
Interesting how his site cronies are circling their wagons around him in support (and hot air) while chiming in with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of substance.
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@Just Me: I, know.
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I have zero interest in that show. Nor any interest in the show “Scandal”. I prefer positive shows, particularly when it comes to us as blacks and it’s on a mainstream network.
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This show does show progress, to some degree. It’s probably rare to have a show about blacks fighting over the inheritance of a family business (indeed it seems more like the province of Asian soap operas).
Taraji seems rather a tragic beauty, with that standoffish, yet forlorn look.
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@ Just Me
I did not think what you said was a slight towards me.
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I will say that before the show started I thought I was going to feel more attached to Anika and that Cookie was going to be the one I hated. I was really surprised that after only the first episode I was more attached to cookie than Anika.
Cookie’s character may have had many stereotypes, but she was not the welfare queen. She was hard working instead of looking for a handout. She was about her family instead of about herself. All those are stereotypes that whites have about black females.
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@sharinalr: Good analysis on the character of Cookie and (BooBoo KittY) Anika
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^^^Thank you Mary.
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Geez… go away for a day and the asylum gets even crazier….
Just Me, what you are saying doesn’t make any sense. Nobody is “Twisting your words.” If you think that they are, then simply “untwist them!”
We are talking about a principle… and that principle is, can a person still enjoy a show even though it has some stereotypical elements in it. IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT THIS SHOW, the principle applies to ANY show that has stereotypical elements. Therefore it is not necessary to watch this show in order to address the overall principle. Black Sci-Fi also stated outright that he has not seen the show, but because his views don’t disagree with your own, you have stated no objection to his commenting about it.
Is your next move to tell Black Sci-Fi that your criticisms of commenting on implications of the stereotypes present in Empire without watching the show didn’t apply to him? (because you’re a hypocrite) And that the big, bad, wolf was “twisting your words?”
Can you really be this slow???
My statement above:
The rest of your statement is just a clumsy attempt to “get even” for being called out on your own foolishness… which you cannot really defend. But since it is based on your not reading the above sentence, it’s really not worth rebutting.
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@ king
These are YOUR WORDS, super-GENIUS.
They speak of YOU – loud and clear.
>>>>>>>>>
” After all, how realistic were the White people in show’s like Dallas or Dynasty or modern shows like Suits or Grey’s Anatomy?
In other words, fictional television scripts are always going to play more into the “collective perception” than they are going to adhere to statistical realties.
I don’t think that people necessarily have to stop watching or enjoying the show.”
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@ Just Me,
…and your point?
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@ Kiwi
I’m not entirely sure that Just Me is capable of understanding my question… I honestly can’t understand what point he’s trying to make in his last post. Perhaps he will explain himself more thoroughly.
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@ jefe
I’m kind of interested, but I’ve been avoiding TV for a while. I’m trying to live a life of more doing and less watching. Not a judgement on anyone else’s life, just something that I want for my own.
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@Jefe
I think you should just watch the first episode just to get a feel for it. There is much revealed in the first episode.
@King
“I’m kind of interested, but I’ve been avoiding TV for a while.”–I understand exactly what you mean. It can be addicting and takes away from other things. I stopped watching tv at one point and was dragged back in. Around this time of year I usually go on a hiatus from TV.
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@King: I feel you should at least see what all the fuss is about.
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I hear you sharinalr!
Mary, I may have to catch one episode, but like sharinalr says, it’s sooo EASY to get addicted to a good show! Dare I pick up that TV crack pipe again? Lol!
I just realized that I don’t write, or paint, or cook new things, the way that I once did. I used to love archery, and my bow has been in my garage for years. I used to pay bass guitar. I used to swim a lot. But mostly, I just want to create things. I don’t want my life to be so much about taking in the creations of others. I want to leave something behind. And it’s just that the time to do that has to come from somewhere.
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@King: I feel you
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Its game of thrones season, S5 is a bit lackluster in action terms but the cinematography is awesome.
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Abagond, please feel free to delete my comments put in moderation.
I am just looking forward to healthy discussion about this show and this post. Thanks.
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^Ditto
And let me be the first to extend the olive branch to Just Me. We clearly got off on the wrong foot, but I would be in favor of burying the hatchet between us, if you are willing.
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@ Kiwi
</blockqJust Me was the one who attacked you from the very beginning, not just on this thread but on this blog.
Which is why if there would be peace between us, the gesture probably must come from me. This gives Just Me the opportunity to reassess his options. Maybe he’s grown tired of attacking people.
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Talk about racial stereotypes in entertainment. Adam Sandler’s movie offends the Native Americans working as extras and they walk off the set in protest.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/04/here-are-the-jokes-that-provoked-actors-to-walk-of.html
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@King: I saw that on another social media site. He is so disgusting. I bet he wouldn’t like if someone make offensive jokes or slurs about Jewish people. And i don’t think he is funny either, i hate his movies.
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Ditto Mary, I have never liked his movies at all.
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^ Just wondering. How much does this news hit national attention? Or will it blow over and people just forget about it and people like Sandler will just do it again?
When was the last time non-Jewish people did a satire on Jewish stereotypes and got away with it?
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@Jefe
Little if at all. If it had not been for king posting it I would not have known about it. People seem to view certain groups as fair game. Ie native Americans and Asians.
I applaud them for standing up for themselves. Just goes to show some people do not bend for the mighty dollar.
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I agree. This story will not be a big deal. It will be swept away with hardly a mention and the movie will be released with most of the insults to Native Americans still intact. But like all Adm Sandler movies onf the last 10 years it will be yet another a bomb. Question: Where does Sandler get the money to keep making movies that lose money every single time?
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To Jefe:
When was the last time non-Jewish people did a satire on Jewish stereotypes and got away with it?
Spike Lee’s portrayal of two Jewish night club owners comes to mind in Mo’ Betta Blues (Not a satire but a stereotype and negative portrayal of Jews..).
Also Mel Gibson’s “Passion of Christ” has been said to be anti-semitic.
To King:
Question: Where does Sandler get the money to keep making movies that lose money every single time?
Supposedly overall his movies do make money but not at the US box office (international showings and DVD sales etc…). I find almost all of his recent movies to be absolutely unwatchable.
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To King:
Question: Where does Sandler get the money to keep making movies that lose money every single time?
Over 85% of Adam Sandler’s movies in the past 16 years have made money – many of his films have had a net of greater than 100 million USD. (And realize even the losers will make money in later years on Amazon, Netflix, etc..yes surprising..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Madison_Productions
The irony is that the two Sandler/Happy Madison films that managed to achieve greater than 50% positive ratings with the critics at Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic – one lost money whereas the other was just slightly above break even. Sh*t seems to sell.
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@ Uncle Milton
Ah… my fault for being too apathetic to look up the actual box office figures. I stand corrected. The critics kill him every time. But evidently there is a market for his “humor” and I should have guessed that.
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@UM, I think there is a world of difference between portrayal of a character using negative stereotypes (such as in “The Wire” & “Empire”) & doing satire using dehumanizing stereotypes (eg, minstrel shows in blackface or pickaninny).
Crash (2005) portrayed negative stereotypes of Asians, but was not satire. Cho’s character in American Pie reunion WAS satire and negative. But Fresh off the boat’s satire is of the minstrel variety and might as well be done in yellowface.
Hollywood westerns made negative portrayals of native Americans, but were not satire. But it sounds like Sandler’s piece is being done as a redface minstrel.
The Harold and Kumar series did satire on just about everything — everything, that is, except Jews. That is taboo in Hollywood, it seems.
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I am curious on who his fan base is to even pay to see his films. They are not funny or at least have not been for sometime.
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Jefe:
The Harold and Kumar series did satire on just about everything — everything, that is, except Jews. That is taboo in Hollywood, it seems.
There is a ton of comedy satirizing Jews and some of it can be pretty biting ..although it is generally written and performed by Jews. Much of the satire is insider trading… you have to be Jewish or know a number of Jews well to get it:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U0k_vHxc2k)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yDarQW7UZc)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn-cbsg7Dq8)
(http://www.hulu.com/watch/61330)
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@UM,
I have not see your video clips yet, but about your comment:
This is completely different from the satire done on Native Americans and Asians nowadays. For that satire, it is better if you are not Native Americans or Asian or know many of them to “get” it, because otherwise, you would not find it funny.
I am sure if THAT kind of satire was done on Asians and Native Americans, the kind that they do to themselves, it would be more acceptable to them. It would still contain some negative stereotypes too. But maybe Jews and other whites would not “get” it.
So regarding Kiwi’s remark:
Even without stating your opinion directly, you have already demonstrated what it is – the examples you selected are ones in which Jews themselves have control over, right? They are designed for audiences familiar with Jewish or Jewish American culture, right?
Now, are there ANY examples where non-Jews co-opted the images of Jews to make satire about their stereotypes for the entertainment of non-Jews only? For Native Americans and Asians, it takes seconds to think of thousands of examples for them.
With all those Asian American internet sensations out there, maybe some should do a parody on Jews including satire involving stereotypes of Jews held by non-Jews, for the entertainment of Asian American viewers. Maybe some could be done in “Jew Face”. It could be done like this
“If Asians did satire on Jews (and other whites) the way Jews (and other whites) did Satire on Asians”
First show the satire done on Asians by Jews. Then show the reverse version.
That show would never make it on ABC, but maybe could become a 2 million view Youtube hit.
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Jefe:
Of course there are Jews who are not white or don’t consider themselves white but the majority in the US (around 90%) realistically would consider themselves white with probably an even higher percentage in Hollywood so it is not clear to me why you are singling out Jews in this instance.
Also you are not just asking about negative stereotypes about Jews (hundreds in literature and movies by gentile whites .. from Shakespeare to Charlie Hebdo…) but specifically about satire. Why separate the two..? In my view a negative stereotype is well.. negative regardless if is supposed to be funny or not. Presumably you were limiting the question to Anglo media. (There are many nasty portrayals of Jews in Arabic speaking countries).
Then show the reverse version. That show would never make it on ABC, but maybe could become a 2 million view Youtube hit.
Well go for it…very little controversy over the Wayan Brothers in “White Chicks”, Lenny Henry in True Identity, or Eddie Murphy’s multiple portrayals of whites (including an elderly Jewish man…).
Kiwi:
When Jewish media producers exploit stereotypes of Jews, are they doing so from a position of privilege and power or are they just pandering to their non-Jewish Anglo audiences, which would amount to minstrelsy?
Perhaps a bit of both…there is ongoing debate among Jews over some of the characters of some noted Jewish actors.
For myself:
Adam Sandler, Pauly Shore, and Rob Schneider are just plain embarrassing.
As you noted, Sandler often trumpets that he’s Jewish and often makes a perfect @ss of himself.
I personally still enjoy Woody Allen but I know Jews who do not (as he often portrays a whining neurotic man who clearly identifies as Jewish..).
I found Seinfeld too boring to watch but what I know of it approached minstrelsy on multiple occasions.
.
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@UM,
Of course we are talking about US & Hollywod media, of which “Empire” is a part. In that media market, Asians & Native Americans are the go to groups for minstrelsy yellowface & redface “satire”. That kind of “satire” toward Jews is taboo in that market.
Of course. We could also find markets where (white) Americans are portrayed very negatively. Are they glorified in North Korea?
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To Jefe:
Of course we are talking about US & Hollywod media, of which “Empire” is a part. In that media market, Asians & Native Americans are the go to groups for minstrelsy yellowface & redface “satire”. That kind of “satire” toward Jews is taboo in that market.
I figured as much but you mentioned YouTube as a possible venue, as you probably know so far the most popular video on that site starred and was produced by a non-American Asian (Psy) and YouTube is an American company.
May I ask why you described “Fresh off the Boat” as minstrelsy satire when Asians are the show creators, producers, one third of the scriptwriters and the stars of the show..? FWIW Asian Activist Phil Yu of AngryAsianMan.com likes the show (one man’s opinion of course but Phil Yu has been instrumental in promoting/starting several boycotts against business that had racist portrayals of Asians..) If you are including portrayals of people of color by people of color then yes there are definitely derogatory portrayals of Jews by gentiles and Jews. One of the movies you previously mentioned, American Pie has a Jewish character portrayed by a Gentile having sex with a pizza.
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Whoops.. not trying to be a sock puppet.. previous post was by me…
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Tiger Jk is so freakin hottttt!!!!!
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@Gordon / UM,
I don’t see how that it relevant or supports any of your points as Psy’s video Gangnam Style was not produced by an American media outlet (it was part of an album produced and released in Korea) and not performed by an American and was not intended specifically for a US audience. It happened to be uploaded onto Youtube, where it went viral. Youtube is a US company, but content from around the world is loaded on their platform, most of which is not intended to be of commercial interest to western white audiences.
And Echoing Kiwi’s point, the reason why it was so popular in Western countries, ie. the USA, was that it conforms to the idea of Western stereotyped caricatures of Asians. The reason why it crossed over to Western audiences because it just happened by chance to resonate with white audiences as a minstrel show.
K-pop and Korean dramas are very popular across Asia (ie, even outside its intended market), but the reasons are not the same.
re:
I wouldn’t put much meaning into that. Eddie Huang is one of the producers and he has basically trashed the show and the 3 Executive Producers, only one of which is Asian American (Iranian- born Nahnatchka Khan was technically born in Asia, but does not satisfy the definition of “Asian” by the Government and clearly is not concerned about the problem of using minstrelsy Asian stereotypes to make a buck.) Chinese-American Exec producer Melvin Mar has been called a sellout “Uncle Chan” by Eddie Huang, so is certainly no better than Lee Daniels appropriating stereotypes about blacks in order to make money with white audiences. They are in fact, doing what Lee Daniels does with Empire, but arguably even worse as white and black US audiences generally have even less familiarity with Asian American history, culture and social issues than they do with black audiences. So, tada – minstrel show.
What I have seen re: Phil Yu and the Fresh off the boat TV show is not that he really “likes” the show so much as he praises the ground that it is breaking, ie, something with an Asian American theme and actors crossing over into mainstream US popular media. But I really doubt he could feel comfortable with many of the stereotypes presented. I bet if you ask Kiwi that question, he will also praise the ground it is breaking while simultaneously denouncing it as minstrelsy. Or, as he suggested, some Asian Americans may start to believe stereotypes about themselves as presented by white audiences. That is scary.
AGREE with you that we do have one or more non-Jews portraying a Jewish character(s) in that series, ie, a sort of “Jewface”, but in that case we do have a writer with a Jewish background and directors and producers with Jewish ancestors who have appropriated a few Jewish stereotypes to appeal to non-Jewish audiences. Are you aware whether there was an uproar in the Jewish American community over that? I certainly could understand that. They also exploited Asian stereotypes in the film to appeal to white audiences (e.g., John Cho’s character).
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Kiwi and Jefe:
Regarding Psy and the Gangum Style video.. personally I think Psy is pretty Alpha in the video and defying quite a few Asian stereotypes. He’s confident, a bit off the wall, looks like he’s having a good time, and is surrounded by beautiful women in most of the scenes. Also he was forgiven pretty quickly by his US audience when it was discovered he had made anti-America comments etc in 2002 and 2004.
was not intended specifically for a US audience..
Well yes but that’s mattering less and less… I was specifically responding to your comment about an Asian performing “jewface” on Youtube and garnering 2 million hits. That person would not have to be in the US to get attention here but could be anywhere in the Anglosphere or even outside of it.
“Nahnatchka Khan was technically born in Asia, but does not satisfy the definition of “Asian” by the Government ”
Sorry I had initially thought from her surname and appearance that she was South Asian. (I’ve known three people with the surname Khan, two were Asian Indian and one was Chinese American although I realize the name has been adopted in parts of West Asia).
Read two interviews with Eddie Huang, it appears he approves (well mostly) of the pilot but not the rest of series. I did watch the pilot but found it uneven and not really funny. (But I find most sitcoms to be boring..) As I read a synopsis of his book I think it should have been a mini series on something like Showtime, Starz, Netflix, etc. It sounds pretty involved and serious, with moments of humor. Sitcoms in the US tend to be mindless and open ended (going on for many seasons..) which inherently does not fit well with a memoir. That said if the show keeps on getting good ratings they can probably inject some real social commentary. (As a few other sitcoms has done successfully when they got established..)
FWIW Eddie Huang likely knows something about Jewish culture since he attended Yeshiva University for his JD.
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@UM
You’re serious? 😮
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Jefe:
You’re serious?
Yep….definitely quirky but he carries himself with confidence and is surrounded by beautiful women. I do not equate Alpha with machismo.
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More obviously Asian Alpha characters in my mind would be Chow Yun Fat or Toshiro Mifune. But I do think Psy is projecting Alpha at least in the Gangnam Style video.
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@UM,
Obviously we look at the same video and see two very different things.
What do you see on Empire?
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@UM,
I don’t want to hijack this thread too much to discuss Fresh off the Boat, but until Abagond puts up a post, we have to put it somewhere. Suppose we could remotely associate it with Empire as it relates to falling back to using stereotypes to appeal to white audiences.
I would not say that Phil Yu of Angry Asian man has actually come forward to praise “Fresh off the Boat”. At best, I would say that they have a mixed reception.
Phil Yu and Jenny Yang did a “Fresh off the Air” review after every episode on his blog.
(http://blog.angryasianman.com/2015/04/fresh-off-boat-episode-guide-111-112.html)
They have consistently said that
– it does not seem that realistic a portrayal of the Asian American experience
– the family already seemed to be very assimilated already, so the premise of trying to assimilate seems unrealistic to Asian Americans.
– it is more a portrayal of white America than Asian America – they said they learned new things about white America rather than the other way around (ie, not much about Asian America is being communicated).
But, they also mentioned a few things they liked, esp. stuff that has never appeared on TV before (e.g., having the 2 grandmothers speak to each other in Mandarin in prime time US TV and making jokes).
Youtube channel Off the Great Wall hosts did a commentary
8 Things We Liked and Disliked About Fresh Off The Boat
(13:29)
(https://youtu.be/5FudvhNkBbA)
The hosts, children of mainland Chinese immigrants, also seemed to notice that it was not that realistic. They found the Asian Dad to be a white dad in an Asian body. They had trouble imagining an actual Asian American family with immigrant parents such as those depicted in the show.
Another point noted about the show was here on Slate:
(http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/03/27/fresh_off_the_boat_conversation_why_it_s_refreshing_that_show_doesn_t_show.html)
Yes, the show has almost completely erased any issue of racism.
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