A “thug” (1810) is someone who is violent with little regard for the law. Like “savage” and “terrorist”, it has become highly racialized, especially since 2009. It has been called the new N-word.
Think like a White racist:
- savages = Native American men;
- terrorists = Muslim men;
- thugs = Black American men.
White Americans use these words to stereotype the men of an out-group as dangerous and naturally violent, as lacking morals and empathy. Whites then use that as an excuse to act in just that way towards them: violent, no empathy, no morals. Drones, police brutality, genocide.
You can see how racialized the word “thug” has become in 2015. Here is how many web pages use the following phrases according to Google:
- 497,000 “black thugs”
- 88,700 “Latino thugs” + “Hispanic thugs”
- 87,100 “white thugs”
- 8,520 “Asian thugs”
Or:
- 3,440 “ray rice is a thug”
- 6 “charlie sheen is a thug”
Even though Sheen has a much longer history of violence against women and his name appears on twice as many web pages.
Compare:
White mass killers:
- 0 “dylan klebold was a thug”
- 0 “the tsarnaev brothers were thugs”
- 0 “james holmes was a thug”
- 1 “tim mcveigh was a thug”
- 1 “adam lanza was a thug”
Famous White criminals:
- 0 “ted kaczynski was a thug”
- 0 “john wayne gacy was a thug”
- 1 “john dillinger was a thug”
- 1 “ted bundy was a thug”
- 3 “lucky luciano was a thug”
- 4 “jesse james was a thug”
- 4 “charles manson was a thug”
- 5 “bill the kid was a thug”
- 5 “bonnie and clyde were thugs”
- 10 “john gotti was a thug”
- 3,630 “al capone was a thug”
Fictional White criminals:
- 0 “don corleone was a thug”
- 0 “walter white was a thug”
- 6 “tony soprano was a thug”
Unarmed Blacks killed by the police or neighbourhood watch:
- 7,320 “eric garner was a thug”
- 8,650 “oscar grant was a thug”
- 26,200 “trayvon martin was a thug”
- 45,200 “michael brown was a thug”
The New York Times said that Michael Brown was “no angel”. It said the same of fellow thug Al Capone.
Thug timeline:
- 1810: The Thugs are a band of highwaymen in India who rob and kill. The word enters the English language.
- 1839: After British colonial authorities crack down on the Thugs, the word gains the more general meaning of “ruffian, cutthroat, violent lowbrow”.
- 1959: The phrase “black thugs” appears in written English. “Negro thugs” and “colored thugs” (or even “coloured thugs”) never do.
- late 1960s: The phrase “black thugs” catches on as Republicans in the US push “law and order” as a racist dog whistle issue to divide the working class. It is part of their Southern Strategy.
- 1990s: The phrase “black thugs” becomes yet more common as gangsta rap pushes the image of Black men as thugs.
But “thug” only puts a name to something White Americans have been thinking since the 1870s: Black men as naturally heartless and violent – the Black Brute stereotype. The stereotype underpinned lynching, Jim Crow and the Klan. Now it underpins racial profiling, police brutality and mass incarceration. Even in the 2010s, you cannot make sense of White American thought and behaviour without it.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
They have new ones now. Here’s two.
Boons
Nigs
It’s telling how “Warlord” is never used to refer to white people.
LikeLike
Thank you Abagond! 🙂
Two points:
1) I always thought that the word thug was connected with the Dutch word tuig (1613), which also meant something like “bad people.”. I see I was wrong there.
2) One of the books I have is “Among the Thugs” (1990) by Bill Buford. The book is about (predominantly white) English football hooligans. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Among_the_Thugs ) Thus, I had no idea that the word “thug” was racialized.
I have learned a lot today.
LikeLike
“Black women only date thugs” Some brainwash brothers repeating these words like a broken record. Majority are unaware of the word thug being use as racial slur than stereotypical rapper thugs in music video. Our people become parrots and repeat these hurtful words against each other. I overheard a black man told his friend. “He don’t mudsharks”
You heard the drama about light skin girl document made by Oprah last week.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on 1listenerblog.
LikeLike
Excellent post.
LikeLike
Yet another modern hip hop tragedy. Along with rampant misogyny, it also promoted and associated “Thug Culture” as a label for Black ghetto life.
Although, thug is constantly used as a RACIST term today, rappers themselves had no small part in tying the term particularly to Blacks in the minds of many, both in the U.S. and around the world.
LikeLike
I do not however hold Carlton responsible.
LikeLike
Great post. I am going to link to it in a book review tomorrow.
LikeLike
Abagond, you didn’t mention the other side of this coin. Mainly, white men who possessed the same character traits as “black thugs” had the title “bad boys” bestowed on them and are/were highly desirable by women. For some reason the term didn’t take as well with black men.(sarcasm)
LikeLike
idk obviously tupac had a lot to do with the more or less contemporary connotation, to me it’s drinking and scrapping in the street, the hood even, with no regard to consequences or life limb or property!
so to some degree dylan kliebold and adam lanza would fit that but it seems more like a street level thing?
like i know i cannot address life from the perspective of criminality and it’s something i have to work on, its more of a day to day thing? than columbine or the batman movie, dilinger, gotti etc are gangsters, which is not mutually exclusive of course
LikeLike
@King
“Along with rampant misogyny, it also promoted and associated “Thug Culture” as a label for Black ghetto life.”
There might be a lack of understanding about hip hop in its original form. Like other genres, it is an expression of real life, and many rappers have been so-called “thugs” and therefore rapped about their actual lives. That doesn’t mean they are promoting “thug culture,” it means they are telling their story. Their stories have also included mistreatment by police and other political and societal issues witnessed in general. Just like country musicians tell about their llives muddin’, tailgaitin’, toting guns, talkin about “trashy women”…
So rappers are not responsible for why people associate thugs with black males. Just like country musicians who call themselves rednecks and hicks, love shooting, and refer to women as “trashy” are not responsible for people’s association of all white males with being backwards, uneducated, dirty, trigger-happy, hicks.
LikeLike
[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
LikeLike
In it’s original American meaning, thugs were underlings who performed violent acts for hire or for their mob bosses. In another meaning, “thug” was a generic term for a violence-capable street criminal or for a person who engaged in street violence for the joy of it. The word in its original American street meaning had no racial connotations, though probably the types to whom it originally was applied were white. Word get around, but when they do, they develop new meanings. The word now generically means a violence prone black male youth or young adult. To use it describe some other type, you have to qualify it, as in “mafia thug”. But there have been other types of violence prone youth to whom the term has been applied. I am sure the violent white greasers of the 1950s sometimes were called thugs. Most of the white greasers were blowfish, not tough at all. But, as is always the case in any place and time, some were. There were greasers thugs who picked fights and beat people up just for the joy of it. Their joy. Not the victim’s.
LikeLike
@ resw77
Without dragging out all the lyrics, which I’m sure almost anybody could easy do, I can tell you that MUCH of the music is directly glorifying and outright celebrating things like:
1) Promoting drug abuse
2) Promoting pimping and prostitution
3) Abusing women
4) Massive profanity and vulgarity
5) Crime
And for every reflective, depression of the life song, there are two or three that just straight celebrate the list above on the very same album. If you don’t believe me, I will produce all of the vile lyrics one after the other and you can see them for yourself.
Secondly, most of the successful rappers are not from the street, but from relatively middle-class families. I have known of several here on the West coast and have heard of a lot on the East coast. Many of the biggest names are not rapping about what they are born in, but what they think will make money.
There is no question that this has helped stick the “thug” image on Blacks. I don’t say it’s the only factor for sure, but it has been HUGE worldwide in exporting the street gangster image to be represented with a Black face.
LikeLike
In my mind the term thug is just the new n-word.
LikeLike
Offensive, but NOT as offensive as the N-word! Much more history behind that one.
LikeLike
@King
I don’t need a lesson on hip hop from you, as I’ve listened to my fair share during most of my life. Some of my favourite rappers are well educated and not by any means thugs, e.g., Lupe Fiasco, Common, Talib Kweli, etc. and they don’t pretend to be thugs, promote drug use, disrespect women, etc. And there are of course many impostors, like in every other genre.
What you’re doing is painting hip hop with one brush based on a very small amount of lyrics you heard that you didn’t like. It’s no different than saying all country music is about white males being backwards, uneducated, dirty, trigger-happy, drunken hicks.
You speak like every other talking head on Fox News who just hears words and then cries “offensive” and ignores not only all the hip hop songs that are educational, political and with positive messages, but that you can find just as much drug use, crime and profanity in white rock bands lyrics as well. It’s a double standard.
LikeLike
I just posted on Jeremy Meeks on the Open Thread section because wasn’t sure how relevant it would be to this topic
because it covers just so much territory in the “just so wrong” department —
1) the word “thug” being used so easily and commercially by black people themselves 2) misogyny, 3) internal racism, 4) black women/black men relationships. and 5) black men straight to jail pipeline
I’m going to post it here Abagond because a) Jeremy is considered a thug {how true this is, don’t know – he could easily be a “wanna be” but suffers the consequences because the US jail system needs bodies in order to make a profit}
and b) this Bossip by-line lends into what King is saying that when the community itself “accepts” and uses the word “thug” to such an extent–then it is seen and becomes Normal.
It is highly important that black/brown peoples “images” should be controlled by us —
and you would think that we should be allowed to say what we want about ourselves without other people “distorting” the Image
but unfortunately, No one should feel shocked that when white racists and the media takes images and cue words from the black/brown community and turn something that is “understood” by all in the community,
into something ugly and Negative, and then feeds this to the white/general masses
(Abagond, if you feel that my post doesn’t belong here on this thread, then please delete it, because it can be viewed on the Open Thread)
LikeLike
And i don’t need a lesson on hip hop from you, as I’ve listened to plenty of hip hop myself growing up. I didn’t say ALL rappers did I? I am no more painting hip hop with a broad brush than Abagond is painting White people with a broad brush.
I am simply pointing out that there have been a LOT of popular hip hop artists, particularly from the mid ’90s though the last decade that have owned, branded, and embraced the thug label and thug life, loud and proud. To ignore that this has had some influence on where we are with the word today would be dishonest.
My problem with the use of “Thug” is that it is too often applied (particularly by Whites) to ANY Black man not wearing a suit.
– All Black professional athletes are thugs
– All Blacks who wear ethnic clothing are thugs
– Black guys who wear a sweatsuit to the gym are thugs
– Anyone speaking non-standard English are thugs
– People who wear Afro’s are thugs
– Black people who fix up their cars are thugs
Evidently 90% of Black people are thugs!
To me that is the main problem, just using it as another more acceptable slur against anyone Black who is not imitating Urkel.
LikeLike
abagond, forgive me for this but
this “satire” was shared with me and I had to laugh despite myself, so I’m passing it on.
http://www.people.com/article/hottie-thug-jeremy-meeks-prison-gun-possession
Bossips By-Line word for word:
F*ck A (Fine Azz) Thug: Mugshot Famous “Felon Bae” Jeremy Meeks Sentenced To Two Years In Prison
Jeremy Meeks, also known as the ‘Hot Felon,’ was sentenced to more than two years in prison Thursday morning, CBS reports.
Mugshot McDreamy’ will spend the next two years in the big house where he won’t be getting much female attention.
The judge also ordered Meeks to pay a $100 but found that the convict does not have the ability to pay it, CBS reports.
Now a misogynist male commenter’s satirical “review” of how the female posters have/will respond to this news:
Average Fat Bassip Female
“OMG, OMG, OMG, Don’t worry Jeremy baby, I’ll be waiting at those prison release gates when you get out, I’ll be the big one in the bike shorts and halter top!
Need any money while they got you locked down baby, I’ll start a GO FUND ME page for you!
Anything, anything you need baby, I got you!”
“Wait, somebody just texted me and said this n*gga has a white wife!”
“Fvck this n*gga, damn criminal, I hope you burn in that motherfvcker!
Ol’ sellout beeeyotch!
Let yo’ white b*tch put money on yo’ books n*gga!
Damn criminal, I hate hate hate criminals!
Girls lets go make a doughnut run, NlGGAS AIN”T SHlT!”
http://bossip.com/1100388/jeremy-meeks-sentenced-two-years-prison-sexy-mugshot-felon-bae/
God forgive, I should not laugh at this but I had a real life moment that was similar to this with a friend who went all gah-gah over Jeremy Meeks picture — and when she found out about his white wife, then all of a sudden, he wasn’t “fine as h” anymore
LikeLike
@ Linda
So is Meeks famous for having a good looking mug shot or did he do some worthwhile crime?
LikeLike
Sharina,
his crime was Very inglorious– he got caught with an unregistered gun while on probation
and he got famous for being good looking
LikeLike
I agree with King that rap music is a big part of why thug is connected with black men. But as Abagond points out the idea the term embodies predates hi hop. But most importantly the only reason hip hop was able to tie black men as thugs is because our society is already so racialized. It’s not like rap songs are explicitly stating all black men are thugs. That it’s enough that some black rappers calling themselves thugs is enough to associate the term with black men in general is evidence of that.
LikeLike
One of the values that the West is based on—is the elevation of the individual and the downgrading of the collective—this causes marginalization because collectives are more powerful than individuals. So the term “racism” promotes the meta-narrative of individualism because of the presumption that racism is a personal matter/opinion/condition…..The term “oppression” (apartheid) breaks this narrative because oppression is about the abuse of power/injustice and the presumption behind it is of systemic abuse (collective)….The group of people effected by the abuse is not limited to just one—but can encompass many levels in society.
This phenomenon is most apparent in the Western feminist narrative which also distorts the the real issue of the abuse of power by genderizing it—the term “patriarchy” is often used to frame a narrative of women against men—rather than the more collective narrative of oppression—because oppression is not restricted to gender injustice alone—but is a more encompassing term…..
If people are to fight against the (systemic and institutional) abuse of power, then we need to decolonize our minds from the hasbara of the meta-narrative that serves those in power by marginalizing those without….
LikeLike
@Ben,
I think the term “bad boy” has not yet been racialized. “Thug” has.
LikeLike
[…] might read from a Hispanic or Black criminal. A thug is a thug regardless of race even though that word has become racialized. People are often shot or otherwise badly hurt not just because of “business” but […]
LikeLike
And therein lies the rub in the mouths of whites the word “thug” becomes racialized. Anyone of any race can be a thug. With the deaths of young black men like Trayvon Martin and Mike Brown the word “thug” has been applied to young black men by the dominant culture.
LikeLike
Deviance, is thus lodged in the eye of the beholder rather than the act itself, and it may vary in the way it is defined by time and place (Becker, 1963).
The terms “thug or bad boy” is relative to who is announcing these words and what social class you belong to in Amerika. Both words are utilized as pretext or preparation to eventually marginalized or minimize a person’s character from a political and social standpoint for further mischaracterize in an attempt to control an individual or group of people to move towards the social norm.
However, I must say that the term “thug” is more harsh, stigmatizing and PERMANENT. It is also is usually associated more with being either African-American or simply another ni**a.
On the other hand, the term “bad boy” is TEMPORARILY associated more with someone that is considered Caucasian or an unrefined hick or hillbilly who’ve violated a minor social rule. This term, I will add, is usually detached from the individual once he apologizes for his mistake(s), whatever they may have been.
LikeLike
Then there are the vegan foodie couple Michelle Davis and Matt Holloway with their so called “Thug Kitchen” cookbook and Youtubes , that has been quite controversial, Maybe this post goes under the other thread post “Things White People Shouldn’t Say.” What could have been an otherwise enjoyable cooking venue is offensive to me. Using so called urban street slang and lyrics borrowed from rap songs and black stand up comics. This is such an epic fail to me. This just an example of a couple being short sighted and using their white privilege.
LikeLike
@King: LOL! at Carlton Banks as a “thug.” This is a debatable subject and i can remember in the early 90’s when late rapper Tupac Shakur had an LP out called “Thug Life.” I remember young women in the community having tattoos with the term “thug life” inked on their bodies. I remember angry young conservative brothers complaining about the young sisters having preference to the more urban brothers. When certain issues that affect a certain strata of our community and white American get have no understanding about our culture and the form all kinds of negative perspectives about our community this is where the ignorance comes from.
LikeLike
@blakksage : Summed it up so much more eloquently.
LikeLike
Mainstream media is also culpable in showing the negative images of black men and young black males perpetrating the negative stereotypes that get assigned to black and brown males.
LikeLike
White kids in suburban America where hoodies from Abercrombie and Fitch and Aeropstale. Black kids wear hoodies and get labeled as “thugs.” Geraldo Rivera spread his ignorance during the Trayvon Martin tragedy. It’s clowns like him and his Fox News cohorts that keep this ignorance perpetuated.
LikeLike
I about Jeremy Meeks he was the sexy fine thug. I didn’t really get what all the hoopla was about, but i thought it was interesting how he almost broke the internet during that time last Summer. It’s amazing how if one is perceived as attractive it doesn’t matter what kind of crimes they have committed. Jeremy Meeks had all women of all racial ethnicities going crazy. I thought he looked like a male model in a fashion magazine but he didn’t affect me in the manner as he did so many others.
LikeLike
*I forgot about Jeremy Weeks* typo ^^^^^
LikeLike
Yeah Mary, there has been that whole “Why do women like thugs?” movement has it’s analog in the White community with its “Why do women like the “Bad boys?” movement.
Personally, I think this is as stereotypical of Women as the word “thug” is against Blacks. Obviously ALL women, or even MOST don’t go for criminals. There is a certain segment that does, and certain men use this to try and stereotype what all women want. Many times, the real problem is with the “Nice Guy” himself.
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml
LikeLike
@King
I didn’t attempt to give you a lesson on hip hop, I laid down facts. You may not have said “all of” but you clearly said “MUCH of the music is directly glorifying and outright celebrating things like…” which is simply not true. I think it shows you don’t really know “much” about hip hop.
“I am no more painting hip hop with a broad brush than Abagond is painting White people with a broad brush.”
You can take that up with Abagond, not me, but yes, you are misrepresenting hip hop based on your extremely limited experiences, and showing a basic lack of understanding.
“To ignore that this has had some influence on where we are with the word today would be dishonest.”
I’m sure you know that your world view is not universal. And I’d hope you’d know that the denigration of black people precedes the invention of hip hop.
“Evidently 90% of Black people are thugs!”
Only according to racists.
LikeLike
@Solesearch
Look how contradictory your statements are:
“I agree with King that rap music is a big part of why thug is connected with black men.”
vs
“But most importantly the only reason hip hop was able to tie black men as thugs is because our society is already so racialized.”
If your first statement were true, shouldn’t a significant amount of redneckery in country music characterise whites as rednecks? Or is the reason country music is UNable to “tie” white men to rednecks because our society looks upon whites very highly?
Which one is it?
LikeLike
res77 you obviously don’t understand me and you have no idea what my “worldview” is. You also have no idea how “limited” or extensive my exposure to hip hop is. I suggest we agree to disagree and move on.
LikeLike
“you have no idea what my “worldview” is”
Then try not calling people “dishonest” for not agreeing with it.
“You also have no idea how “limited” or extensive my exposure to hip hop is.”
Completely agree. Either you’re expressing your limited “exposure” or feigning it. I really don’t care which one it is.
LikeLike
Where did I call a person dishonest? I’ll wait.
So if people don’t agree with your views on hip hop then it must be because they are either 1) not properly exposed to it or 2) are trying to decieve? Only you’re view is valid.
It sounds like maybe you should try taking your own advice about calling other people dishonest, hey?
LikeLike
All I know is that when rap first came out, it was fun. No one was celebrating gangsta culture.
Even when they were describing their life, no one was glorifying it until NWA came along and made it popular to be a “gangsta” — they changed rap/hip hop and not for the better in my opinion
LikeLike
@ Linda
Yeah rap went on a long time from the old M.C. days with Mely Mel, Grand Master Flash, Sugar Hill Gang, and later, even D.J.s like the Fresh Prince and Jazzy Jeff, Heavy D. and the like. Too many to mention…
I also remember a lot more conscious rappers who talked in depth about politics and society. I think we still have that with Common and sometimes Mos Def and a few others. But a lot of negative stuff started creeping in and eventually took the top ratings and center stage. It wasn’t long before prominent rappers were literally killing each other over beefs and things they heard somebody had said about them. Suge Knight just ran over someone last week and killed him in a parking lot after an argument on the set of “Straight Out Of Compton.”.
My personal belief (which I have said before on this blog) is that a strong preference was given among the mostly White record executives, A&R people, and producers to promote a “certain kind” of rap and to make the screen a lot tighter for a lot of the most positive stuff. The reality is that Blacks were not the final decision makers as to what kind of Black music was promoted and sold.
LikeLike
@Linda: Yes you are telling the truth about that
LikeLike
I remember when Ice -T came with Pusher
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nODi6OECzs)
that was different than groups like Eric B. & Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, or even EPMD (even though they all looked and sounded “hard”)
The most memorable part of Pusher was the chorus, most people remember and sang it.
The chorus was sampled from Curtis Mayfields song “Pusherman” (1972)
I’m your mama, I’m your daddy
I’m that n#gga in the alley
I’m your doctor, when in need
Want some coke, have some weed
You know me, I’m your friend
Your main boy, thick and thin
I’m your pusherman
Even though Curtis and Marvin Gaye, sung about poverty, drugs, and ghetto life… it was done with style and the message showcased the reality of ghetto life… without glorifying criminality or the gangsta/thug lifestyle
Ice-T, NWA and a host of other west coast rappers — regardless if they said they were just trying to talk about their life and world they lived in
they still managed to change the lexicon of hip/hop_profanity becoming the norm, the n’word becoming the norm, as well as bragging about their guns and money.
LikeLike
“King,
he mostly White record executives, A&R people, and producers to promote a “certain kind” of rap and to make the screen a lot tighter for a lot of the most positive stuff. The reality is that Blacks were not the final decision makers as to what kind of Black music was promoted and sold.”
Linda says,
Of course, money makes the world go round.
Even Ice-T could have been considered a “conscious rapper” in the beginning of his career because he was all for “put down the drugs and guns/ let music be your drug” — very intelligent man but even he changed as the money started to flow as more doors opened for him.
I personally can’t put it all on the producers/ A&R and absolve the rappers themselves. As you mentioned, when Suge Knight came along, then the battles turned from lyrical to real life.
LikeLike
No, it’s impossible to just excuse the rappers and maintain any shred of credibility, I agree. I’m just saying that it was a duel effort, and that ultimately it was the final decision makers who shaped the medium.
Let me put it another way. You have thousands of Dutch painters, all wishing to become famous, wealthy, and influential. If I (as the gatekeeper) choose only to back and promote the ones who paint pornographic pictures, then I have the ultimate control of how Dutch painters are viewed, and to some degree, how all Dutch people may begin to be perceived. It doesn’t mean that the painters whom I selected are not rightly called X-rated painters. It’s that in a way, what I have done by selecting only them is even more pro-pornography than anything they could have done individually. I could easily have balanced it out a little, but my choices created the perceptions of the whole group.
LikeLike
Unfortunately, many rappers are entertainers of today’s minstrel show. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Black or White rapper. We see present-day “blackface” performers in Lil Wayne, Rick Ross, Snoop Dog, Nicki Minaj, Iggy Azalea, Paul Wall, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
My dad always told my siblings and I that whenever a Black entertainer “acts an ass” (my dad’s words) in front of an all-white or predominantly white audience he’s performing a minstrel show for white folks.
“Blackface” performers of today’s minstrel shows:
Notice that Ms. Iggy “Dis’ is how I does it” Azalea is having a ball on stage “blackfacing” (performing) with a Black performer (NOT with the other white performer). But should I fault Iggy or the Black performer or both?
LikeLike
@ Abagond
I apologize for my non-topic comment and pictures, but, in many ways, thuggery among “studio gangstas,” like Lil Wayne and Rick Ross, is a minstrel show to Whites.
LikeLike
@ Michael Cooper
Does that only go for performances, or can it also go for tweets?
LikeLike
@ King
LMAO!!! Thanks, brother.
LikeLike
@King
“Where did I call a person dishonest? I’ll wait.”
No need to wait. Just read what you wrote: “To ignore that this has had some influence on where we are with the word today would be dishonest.”
“So if people don’t agree with your views on hip hop then it must be because they are either….”
I don’t really care if anyone agrees with my views, but facts are facts. And I certainly didn’t say people were “dishonest” for not agreeing with my views.
@Michael Cooper
“Unfortunately, many rappers are entertainers of today’s minstrel show. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Black or White rapper. ”
I agree that there are many minstrels, but as we all know, minstrel shows were not introduced by hip hop nor are they limited to hip hop.
LikeLike
@ resw77
I said, when did I call A PERSON dishonest? So I’m still waiting…
You do realize that there is a big difference between someone stating their own rationale for taking a certain position, and actually calling someone else a name, right?
A woman may state that she wouldn’t wear a skimpy outfit because she thinks its immodest. But that’s a far cry from going out on the street and finding someone else who is wearing the same outfit and calling her a whore! People are free to express their own judgement about things. I have the right to find things to be dishonest, immodest, faithless, or worthless. But until I start putting those ideas on specific people, they are just my own judgements, that I am fully entitled to.
I’m sorry if I somehow hurt your feelings by discussing the negative role that hip hop has played in regard to promoting the “Thug” label. But its my opinion, and the opinion of many other people, that rappers made this problem a LOT worse by embracing and promoting criminal behavior, as if it was a normal part of our culture, and something to be proud of.
LikeLike
@ resw77
The way I see it, admitting that at least, hip-hop had a role in the whole “Thug” label/culture debate brings us to a nuances discussion of the issue. It’s not only pointing to the obvious problems that Whites have brought to the term, it also admits to how some Blacks have also exacerbated the problem. IMHO this is important going forward. It is necessary to face our own demons, even while necessarily exorcising those sicced on us by others.
LikeLike
@ King
Nice to have some intelligent and informed reflection in the comments expressed here by yourself and others for a change.
LikeLike
Thanks Kwamla, I was wondering when you would appear 🙂
LikeLike
@ resw77
“Minstrel shows were not introduced by hip hop nor are they limited to hip hop.”
You’re correct. But I rememeber a time when hip hop was a history lesson for Black people, Black youth in particular. Do rap groups like Sugar Hill Gang, A Tribe Called Quest, Jungle Brothers, Doctors of Rap (from my hometown of L.A.) and Arrested Development ring a bell?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKBoAjxzXkE)
Unfortunately, most, certainly NOT all, rappers have gone from being urban griots (conscious rappers) to “blackface” entertainers (gangsta rappers). They’ve stopped performing at urban ceremonies. Many perform at shows that highly resemble minstrels. Yes, the money is what does it, but whatever happened to self and racial-pride?
Similar to what the FBI had done to the original Black Panther Party, white music corporations have orchestrated the assassination of conscious/positive rap music. In the hip hop industry, the rapper is the hunted lion and the white music corporation, who don’t have Black people’s best interest at heart, is the hunter.
In order to get a record deal, most desperate Black artists have to reinforce black stereotypes (thuggery, crime, drugs, pimping, hustling, whoring, etc.) or give a white (distorted) version of Black urban life. Unfortunately, the hunter’s tale (black stereotypes) keeps the ca$h flowing.
It’s not a coincidence that white suburban youth are the number one fans of hip hop. White youth are highly entertained by black stereotypes. Live hip hop concerts of Black and White rappers are the actual minstrel shows. These “minstrel shows” attract mostly white people, particularly white youth.
Where I live I’m no longer shocked to see white kids, mostly from the suburbs of L.A.’s South Bay area, listen to gangsta rap (from NWA to Snoop Dog to Lil Wayne). One day, I asked an ordinary white kid (from Manhattan Beach, CA) have he heard of rap groups called Jungle Brothers and A Tribe Called Quest? He said no. I asked him have he heard of rap groups called NWA and AMG? His response was “hell, yeah!”
LikeLike
@ Michael Cooper
Speaking of hip hop on the night of the Grammys, Eminem just won the Grammy for the Best Rap Album cementing his role as the most awarded, top-selling, rapper ever!!!!!!!
https://www.yahoo.com/music/eminem-wins-record-sixth-best-rap-album-grammy-110489625946.html
LikeLike
I pretty much agree with King, Linda and Michael Cooper. The whole thug thing in rap did not become big till after hip hop had crossed over to White audiences. It was driven by White dollars and therefore White stereotypes. Early rap was nothing like that and that music was by and for Blacks. It had not yet been co-opted or deformed into minstrelsy.
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
Right. Once freed they were “out of control”.
A good picture of how Whites saw Blacks during slavery comes from Thomas Jefferson:
LikeLike
This is an interesting thread.
So the minstrel shows of the 19th century featured both whites and blacks in blackface and served to entertain whites and reinforce white stereotypes about blacks.
The minstrel shows (ie, rap) of the early 21st century featured both whites and blacks in blackface (ie, “thug” image) and served to entertain whites and reinforce white stereotypes about blacks.
That makes a lot of sense.
Should link the minstrel show post to this one.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/minstrel-show/)
LikeLike
If you look at Black music forms in the U.S. you get an interesting pattern.
• Gospel Music – known to be a very emotionally expressive form of Christian religious music, broadly enjoyed and emulated worldwide. Changed the face of modern Christian music
• Blues – A musically innovative music form specifically created to express sorrow and loss. Enjoyed and emulated worldwide.
• Jazz – A whole collection of new music forms based on improvisation, polyrhythms, and syncopation. Seen a pure musical genius worldwide and studied religiously by top music institutes and centers of learning.
• Early Rock & Roll – A music form named after a song by Chuck Berry in the early 50’s and was later appropriated by White artists in the late ’50s and branched out to be represented by mostly White artists and presented to mostly White audiences in the 1960s.
• Rhythm and Blues – A music form closely associated with early rock and roll (preceding it) but that came into it’s own during the “Motown Era.” Motown music has become one of the most admired modern music styles. Constantly used in movies and commercials, universally appreciated as good music.
• Early Rap Music – Born out of the M.C. (Master of Ceremonies) competitions in N.Y. City. A spoken word or chanted rhythmic poem delivered over a beat. utilized sampling, D.J. effects, looping etc. seen mostly as an urban, inner-city music form.
BUT then rap music took this wild turn… and veered into Gansta Rap, Thug life, drugs, profanity and crime, and very quickly became the stereotype anthem for Black dysfunction in America. At the EXACT same time, Rap became a crossover music form and was soon listened to by an even larger White audience than it’s Black audience. Whites became the target audience for Rap’s portrayal of Black ghetto dysfunction. Today, the most popular rappers are White – Eminem and Iggy Azalea who both emulate Black idioms and speech patterns and present their personal backgrounds as “ghetto White people.”
Today Gangster Rap has become synonymous with “Black Music,” almost completely forgetting that Blacks also invented Gospel, Blues, Jazz, Rock and R&B. Somehow Blacks went from genius to gangster in record time!
Curious, no? 🙂
LikeLike
@King
“I’m sorry if I somehow hurt your feelings by discussing the negative role that hip hop has played in regard to promoting the “Thug” label.”
The only thing you hurt was your credibility, whilst exposing your ignorance.
“I said, when did I call A PERSON dishonest? ”
Since you’re hung up on semantics, I never said you called “a person” anything. Again, contrary to your opinion, disagreeing with your limited views does not make anyone “dishonest.”
@Michael Cooper
“Do rap groups like…ring a bell”
Yes, and your point?
“Unfortunately, most, certainly NOT all, rappers have gone from being urban griots (conscious rappers) to “blackface” entertainers (gangsta rappers)”
That’s where we disagree. And, how were you able to calculate that “most,” rappers are “blackface entertainers” anyway? Looking at album chart sales, J. Cole’s is #2 and Lupe Fiasco’s #4, Joey Bada$$, #5. That’s 3/5. Are you calling them “blackface entertainers,” and if so, why?
LikeLike
@ resw77
Actually… you kind of did…
LikeLike
@ resw
“Your point?” [on rap groups that ring a bell]
I’m not making a point, I’m just adding awareness to this forum. That’s all.
@ King
Brother, I’m NOT surprised at anything pertaining to White people’s award shows. Hell, Denzel won Best Oscar for a being a “thug cop.” Halle won Best Actress for being a “loose” Black woman (many would say a whore).
The Grammys is by and for white people. That’s plain and simple. Eminem is a good rap artist, but he’s certainly not the best-ever.
Hip hop music reminds me of Rock ‘n’ Roll music – in terms of its roots and its abduction by the white mainstream. Like Hip hop, Rock ‘n’ Roll was considered “devil music” by the older-generation (pre-Rock ‘n’ Roll) population (Whites and Blacks alike). Rock ‘n’ Roll was also considered “nigger music” by most Whites, especially those in the segregated South. Today we have Whites, like Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, calling Hip hop “thug” music – a White racist coding for “nigger” music. Nothing has changed.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKAdDvdOcrk)
Eminem – the Elvis Presley of Hip hop?
Black music legends, like Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Fats Domino, were the voices of Rock ‘n’ Roll music…but then came a white guy named Elvis Presley – the “King of Rock ‘n’ Roll.” LMAO!!!
LikeLike
@King
Yet again, I never said you said “a person,” but I guess you need some diversion from your ludicrous suggestion that it’d be “dishonest” to disagree with one of your extremely limited views.
“Today Gangster Rap has become synonymous with “Black Music,””
Only in your little world.
LikeLike
@Michael Cooper
And so I assume you’re unwilling or unable to share your methodology for determining that “most” rappers are “blackface entertainers.”
LikeLike
Agree to disagree.
LikeLike
Presley would be considered a Mexican by today’s standards..
LikeLike
@ resw77
I agree with King, let’s agree to disagree.
@ TeddyBearSniffer
“Presley would be considered a Mexican by today’s standards..”
In the music world Elvis Presley will always be considered White and nothing else. If you would have said Lynda Carter (Wonder woman) – definitely yes.
LikeLike
@King + Michael Cooper
That’s the best way to handle it.
LikeLike
@ jefe
Agreed 🙂
LikeLike
All right, what do you ladies and gentlemen think of this?
Ohio Players “Love Rollercoaster” :
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBkVV9xxCHE)
A ) We see some of (IMHO) some of the best funky music (also invented by Blacks) masterfully played with saxophones, trumpets, guitars and drums. It is as great as music can be.
B ) We see white people in the audience, “exotic” clothing and hairstyles and texts on innocent themes. In short, it shows blacks as a people who sing and dance their troubles away. Like a minstrel show used to do, even not that long before this performance.
I would go for A, but I wonder what you think.
LikeLike
@Michael Cooper
Of course you do, because you can’t show how “most” rappers are gangsta “blackface entertainers.”
Just like “most” Italian guys who wear suits are in the mafia. I have no way of knowing and/or proving it, but I’ll just “agree to disagree” with anyone who questions my pseudo-factual statement.
LikeLike
@”That’s the best way to handle it.”
Not relevant to the term “thug.” Rather another desperate attempt to involve yourself unnecessarily.
LikeLike
@ Jeff Elberfeld
I don’t think the ‘minstrel show’ reference is meant to refer to any time Whites are mixed into the audience of a Black performer. The reference is used because minstrel shows were, in reality, a way to entertain Whites at the expense of Black dignity. Minstrels were willing to do social harm to Blacks as a way of pleasing Whites. So no, I don’t think the Ohio Players would fall into that category, unless they began linking Blacks to either buffoonery, or to criminality.
LikeLike
here’s a video of Malcolm X’s daughter, Ilyasah Shabazz, talking about Hip/Hop and the N-word.
Malcolm X’s Daughter — White People Can Sing the N-Word … If Black People Record It
http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/10/malcolm-x-daughter-n-word-hip-hop-ilyasah-shabazz-video/#ixzz3RNYhyN3A
The title of the article is a bit sensationalist —
it makes it seem like she is condoning the issue about “white people being allowed to say the N-word”
but as you listen to the video, what she is really saying is that in summary:
As long as black rappers keep using the word in their songs, (knowing that white kids listen to their music), then black people shouldn’t be surprised or get mad when white people say it too.
LikeLike
The sad fact is if white america has the view that blacks are thugs based on the medias portrayal (even accepting this is a minstrel show). Black people are just as culpable for perpetuating that image. They are doing it for the greed of money and not thinking of the ramifications. There should be some acceptance of personal responsibility. Everything isn’t someone else’s fault. It paints black people into a “spoiled identity” class that is unfair and destructive to progress.
The only place I have heard or seen “thug” and “black” as synonymous is in rap music and media blowhards. If black people who portray themselves as thugs in their music are not authentic black people (i.e. minstrel show) then the white people involved are not authentic white people either.
I am no more a jackass racist as you are a thug. This is sensationalism in the media at its finest.
LikeLike
Robb the point has never been that all Whites perpetuate these images or terms. We are usually talking about the White power structure, and sometimes White-American Society (in general) but rarely about random individuals.
LikeLike
@Robb
as King pointed out, why should one take general comments about phenomena in US society so personally, as though one is talking about them in particular? If it doesn’t pertain to you, why would you assume that people think it does.
Second, maybe you can see now how people are not always in control of their images. If people wish and can afford to pay someone to play a thug to white audiences, and that person refuses, they can simply go out and find someone else who will accept.
LikeLike
The article says “White Americans use these words to stereotype the men of an out-group as dangerous and naturally violent, as lacking morals and empathy. Whites then use that as an excuse to act in just that way towards them: violent, no empathy, no morals. Drones, police brutality, genocide.”
This is grouping all American white people into one group who all believe the same things.
LikeLike
Shouldn’t the word used be “A racist uses these words…”
LikeLike
Robb, it means White American culture. It’s like saying America loves the Dallas Cowboys. Everyone gets that this doesn’t literally mean that the Cowboys are the favorite football team of every single American.
LikeLike
The term is not “white Americans love the Dallas Cowboys”…the term is “Dallas is America’s team”. There are no racial overtones in it.
Culture is an integrated system of learned behavior patterns which are characteristic of the members of a society and which are not a result of biological inheritance
Regardless of the intent of the term, choosing to label it “white” leads me to feel my characteristic as white makes me one of the members of the society that is seen as causing the actions described.
Why not American culture? What exactly is “White American Culture”?
LikeLike
Robb what if I said that White Americans support NASCAR. False statement?
LikeLike
I see what you’re saying.
LikeLike
Now, I get it. Robb fell into the common “reading while white” trope and “R-word” confounding miscontruation.
The term “Whites” means some whites, or white culture. It does not mean every individual person who identifies as white. If anyone thinks that “Whites ….” refers to them as an individual, it is indicative that the person either identifies with the statement or feels guilty about it — it is because one cannot say it is wrong.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/the-not-all-whites-argument/)
However, removing the word “white” from the sentence and replacing it with “racist” would completely change the meaning of the sentence. The word “white” must remain as it is a statement referring to white American culture, not specifically with racists.
Your suggestion of Americans v. white Americans re: the Dallas cowboys is a straw man argument, as that is referring to Americans v. non-Americans, not whites vs. non-whites. In any case, saying “Americans love the Dallas Cowboys” does not implicate that all Americans love the Dallas Cowboys or only Americans love the Dallas cowboys.
The other problem is that the word “racist” has become an “r-word” to whites (meaning many or some whites, not necessarily all whites.). OK, yes, it doesn’t mean all whites and certainly blacks, Asians, Latinos, Natives are racist too. America is a very racist society, so pretty much all Americans are racist.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/the-r-word/)
@Robb
It shouldn’t make you feel that you personally are causing the actions, but it might make you feel that you have a connection with segments of society that identify with the culture that does that. There is nothing wrong with that per se, unless you identify with the statement.
If we say “white supremacism promotes exploitation of the black thug image and culture in US society”, should either blacks or whites think that sentence is talking about them personally and specifically?
@King
Yeah, I wonder if Robb thinks that that means that he specifically supports NASCAR as an individual, or if that is a statement of a characteristic of NASCAR supporters in general.
That is the problem with discussions about race in the USA today. It’s become taboo because many Americans, esp. whites, think that they are talking about them specifically as an individual person and not about the general society and culture.
But since “race” is so ingrained in US society, history and culture, how can you talk about it without using words like “white” and “black”?
LikeLike
I still feel that the generous use of the term “white” depicts an overall negative stereotype of white people.
LikeLike
I appreciate the feedback. jefe, I never really thought of the way I think that way. Seriously.
I don’t feel that anyone is targeting me specifically. But I do feel it perpetuates the divide within our culture to see white vs black instead of how you said “America is a very racist society, so pretty much all Americans are racist.” which promotes our society as a whole…not fractured.
I also did not bring up the Dallas Cowboy reference. I just pointed out that the original quote was not targeted at White America, but rather that the Dallas Cowboys are America’s team.
I’m not suggesting that we should forget there is color in the world. I am not suggesting to remove white and black completely. I only suggest removing it when referring to someone in a negative way.
I have no problem with the word racist. I do not feel any guilt about the actions of white racist people. I only connect through the correlation that I am a white american and the term used is white american. But now I understand the meaning as intended much better.
LikeLike
@Robb
but there is a divide. How can we fix it unless we discuss it. Do we have to use “code” words like “minority”, “inner city” “people of a different culture” etc.?
Talking about it does not perpetuate it. NOT talking about it, or using code talk is what perpetuates it.
But you cannot make statements using the term “whites” and expect it to be all positive. Well, you can, but that is called white mythology history, how they have rewritten all the secondary school textbooks to portray any evil that occurred at the hands of whites as something that simply could not be helped.
LikeLike
I do agree with you. We need to discuss it. I wish more people would. I can’t help but feel confused. I went to high school in the 90’s. As I grew up I was taught to use only politically correct terms and that any broad generalization or stereotyping of a group because of color was wrong and racist. I’m not suggesting never saying something negative about a white person. It is broad generalizations about race which are inherently bad.
I didn’t understand the term “White American” when reading the article so you at least have to understand my initial defensive posture thinking that it was stereotyping all of white Americans. In that context it would then become not much different than the term “black thug”. I hope I understand correctly that the term refers to the oppressive nature of the American culture that was predominantly created and perpetuated by white Americans.
I honestly feel that the reason some people might get touchy at thinking they are being called racist or getting defensive about it is a misunderstanding of what is being said.
LikeLike
And I did not mean to suggest that everything was in the past in my definition by using the word “was”. I meant was created and is perpetuated…
LikeLike
That is a mouthful. Can you see how it is simpler (and not necessarily less accurate) simply to say “Whites”?
It is not just the oppressive nature that “white” embodies. It is also the supremacist hierarchy of society, and the normalcy of whiteness.
So how would we rewrite sentences so that “Whites” would not be confused?
For example,
“Whites see being white as normal. Everything else is, well, NOT. For example, they do not find it strange to watch a TV series or movie taking place in New York, Los Angeles or Atlanta with only white main characters. They see nothing strange with seeing black characters with no love life, or depicted as thugs, or white foreigners playing Americans and Asian Americans playing foreigners. When blacks, Asians or Latinos appear, they are either villains or thugs or hapless helpless victims rescued by a white hero.”
How do we rewrite that and not make it about whites so that whites will not misunderstand or be offended?
It would be incorrect and misleading to change it to something like “People in the USA think of Americans of European descent as being representative of the typical American.” (ie, avoiding the term “white”).
This is actually not saying the same thing. If you were a black American, would you see yourself as any less typical American than a white American? How about an Asian American? Who does “people in the USA” refer to? It is pretty much impossible to avoid using the term “white” and mean the same thing without quadrupling the number of words.
LikeLike
Abagond, I am angry this morning
This right here is the BS that I am tired of seeing
Black men being Viewed as “Thugs” and DANGEROUS because they are walking and breathing at the same time,
and some white person feels “threatened”:
One week after arriving in Madison, Alabama, from Pij, India, 57-year-old Sureshbhai Patel was stopped by police while taking a walk around his son’s neighborhood.
That encounter ended with Patel bleeding and temporarily paralyzed in Huntsville Hospital.
According to a statement by the Madison Police Department, a neighbor called to report a “suspicious” person walking around the neighborhood.
In a 911 call to police that day, the caller identifies Patel as “a skinny black guy” he had never seen before walking around the neighborhood. The caller also said that he was following Patel from a distance, and that he was afraid to leave for work and leave his wife alone at home.
So this nosy, f-ing white bstard, who couldn’t mind his own business, felt that his safety was compromised by someone black who was minding his own GD business
ruining this man’s life because this entitled white ahole thought “he saw a Black man”!!!
When is this going to STOP !!!?!!!
and now this brown man, identified as “Black” in America, is now paralyzed because the police said “because Mr. Patel pulled away, he was resisting arrest” , (he got body slammed and his neck broken)
Watch the video – it’s sickening
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/alabama-cop-arrested-takedown-left-indian-man-partially-paralyzed-n305471
What makes me even angrier, is that the cop was Arrested already and an apology issued by the police department…
Did Tamir Rices mother get that apology. Eric Garner’s family!?! The guy killed in Walmart’s family…
countless other Real black and brown people, who have been abused and assaulted by the police in America – where the h’l is their televised apology.
LikeLike
@ Linda
The first part is not surprising. It is my nightmare come true. But the second part, where the police apologize, is pretty chilling. It means the police do not see killing Black men as any kind of mistake, at least not a serious one.
LikeLike
@Linda
” the caller identifies Patel as “a skinny black guy” he had never seen before walking around the neighborhood. ”
That’s a good example how much a problem eyewitness misidentification is wrt race is in America. It’s also a big reason there are so many wrongful convictions as studies have suggested the unreliability of cross-racial identification.
LikeLike
@ Linda, Abagond,
So, do you think that it is because they discovered that the victim was not black, but a foreign Asian? Or because of the recent media splurge about killings of blacks by the police have caused police to become more apologetic?
Maybe both?
ie,
1. If it had been a year ago, would the beating and disablement of an Asian man made the news at all? (I suspect maybe not.)
2. If there is any chance that the beating of a black man will ever be followed by an apology in the future. Maybe if it is a foreign black man?
I checked Madison, AL. In 2010, it already had 7% Asian and increasing fast (maybe 9-10% by now?). That is above the national average and WAY above average for Alabama. It is definitely enough for the police to receive proper training.
LikeLike
“jefe @ Linda, Abagond,
So, do you think that it is because they discovered that the victim was not black, but a foreign Asian? Or because of the recent media splurge about killings of blacks by the police have caused police to become more apologetic?”
Linda says,
I think the attention that the police have been getting last year probably and the fact that the video of the whole interaction came out, is what caused the apology.
The police nationwide look as if they are trying to clean up their act or at least, trying to publicly look like they are doing something about police abuse, but so far, it has been mostly cases that were caught on video.
If it wasn’t for that video, it would have been a he say/she say. Because of the video, the cops can’t back up their “resisting arrest” story (not like it makes a difference to the Grand Jury, Eric Garner had a video and that didn’t help hm)
In a state like Alabama, I don’t think they care if the person is Asian or foreign – this will not stop them from harassing or abusing someone because after black people, Mexicans/Hispanics are on the hit list
and when Mr. Patel couldn’t speak in English, they probably assumed he was Mexican… in the video, you can hear them talking about the fact that he didn’t speak English or understand, but they roughed him up anyway.
So far, this year, the videos have been helping innocent people get their names cleared.
SC man shot by trooper in viral video gets $285K settlement. Officer was charged with assault and battery
http://www.thestate.com/2015/02/03/3966181/black-driver-reaches-settlement.html
Two Philadelphia Cops Charged With Brutality After Video Shows Beating Unarmed Man
in May 2013, when the two officers detained then-23-year-old Najee Rivera, claiming he strong-armed one of the officers. What resulted was a brutal beating, which left Rivera hospitalized
Rivera’s girlfriend “found surveillance video, at a barber shop-auto detailing business on the block, that would exonerate Rivera and lead to the arrest of the officers who prosecutors say beat him without provocation and then falsely arrested him.
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2015/02/two-philadelphia-cops-charged-brutality-video-shows-beating-unarmed-man/
LikeLike
“It means the police do not see killing Black men as any kind of mistake, at least not a serious one”
yep and when asked if they could do it all over again if they would handle it differently they say they would do it the same way, admitting they would kill a black person all over again even if they could’ve used less lethal force. When a black person is killed it is their family and community that is expected to apologize for how they react. Mike browns step dad was made to apologize and there were reports of him being investigated. They bring up the victims past and if they can’t find dirt on them they bring up a family members past.
LikeLike
this guy will not be called a thug, the black victims have been. Then there’s the story of William Wingate carrying a golf club and was arrested after the dashcam showed the female officer lie and say he swung the golf club at her. It could’ve ended worse, he was arrested, now she has been assigned to desk duty. When they harass, arrest, or kill a black person they either get desk duty or paid leave. They threw mr patel to the ground and the officer is arrested, charged, and the police apologize, yet black folks can’t get either of those when we are killed by the police.
LikeLike
Look out when they are on the hunt for a suspicious black man every non white is fair game. remember when they were looking for Christopher dorner and they shot at two latino women. They just seem to go crazy when they hear a description of a black suspect and get trigger happy or use excessive force.
LikeLike
@ jefe
““Whites see being white as normal. Everything else is, well, NOT. For example, they do not find it strange to watch a TV series or movie taking place in New York, Los Angeles or Atlanta with only white main characters. They see nothing strange with seeing black characters with no love life, or depicted as thugs, or white foreigners playing Americans and Asian Americans playing foreigners. When blacks, Asians or Latinos appear, they are either villains or thugs or hapless helpless victims rescued by a white hero.”
How do we rewrite that and not make it about whites so that whites will not misunderstand or be offended?”
It is not the first time that someone has mentioned the predominance of white people on TV. I am aware of it. It is not normal to me. To say I don’t sense a connection to seeing white people would be absurd…but I equally feel it is absurd when I see one black guy pop into a show to show they are “racially diverse”. Its insulting to me because I know who is responsible for it and I am unfortunately forced to be a part of it because I am white. I have an honest want to see fair representation throughout our culture and I have negative feelings towards the media for this and other reasons.
I was thinking about it last night about why I was defensive of “white” equating to racist. I thought a lot on your input and defining things better for me. I do think many white people are blind to the racism and also feel a lot of sadness about the shit that still goes on. I am ashamed of what happened in the past and what still goes on today, but I am not ashamed that I am white or of who I am as a person. I guess what I am trying to say when I say “I am not racist” is I understand who you are referring to, but to please not associate me with those who are racist and are a part of the problem and to please take my word that even though I know I probably still have issues to resolve, that I want to be part of the solution and not a continuation of the problem…in a sense, my eyes are open.
Thanks for being so kind and thoughtful on an otherwise very emotionally explosive topic jefe…
LikeLike
Jefe,
I believe the police handling this situation quickly was also helped along by the Indian government, since this can be construed as an “International” incident
Indian govt ‘extremely disturbed’ about Alabama police assault of Indian national
http://rt.com/usa/232263-indian-government-condemns-alabamapolice/
“Embassy of India spokesman Sridharan Madhusudhanan said in an emailed statement that the office has been in touch with Patel’s family, the doctors who are caring for him and the U.S. Embassy in Delhi.”
LikeLike
mstoogood4yall,
The best part about this whole thing, do you know how these cops first addressed Mr. Patel as they approached him:
“Hey Boy, whatcha doin?!
Even if he was a “30 year old skinny black guy” — a GROWN man is being addressed as “Boy”
only in America
LikeLike
They called him boy smh, it is so twisted that black kids are seen as older than they are and grown black/ poc are talked to as if they are still kids. i’m not surprised since it is the south. It seems their kryptonite is calling us by our first name or saying sir/ma’am, they will say hey dawg, hey boy/girl, hey man, hey playa, hey chief, hey nword, anything just to avoid addressing a grown person with respect.
If the police can kill Kenneth chamberlain and called him the n word then it is no surprise they would call this grandfather a boy.
LikeLike
Another difference, people created a fund to help pay for his medical expenses, if a black person were killed, the killer cop would’ve been the one to get a fund to reward them for killing a black person.
LikeLike
“mstoogood4yall,
Another difference, people created a fund to help pay for his medical expenses, if a black person were killed, the killer cop would’ve been the one to get a fund to reward them for killing a black person.”
Linda says,
M, you should know better, this is America —
of course, some racist white American masquerading as a “fair and unbiased” citizen has already set up a fund for the cop who got arrested.
Fundraising page created for Eric Parker, Madison officer arrested for assaulting Indian grandfather
http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/02/donation_site_created_for_eric.html
LikeLike
The word thug comes from India. There was a band of Kali worshipers called the Thuggee. They were robbers, murderers, and highwaymen, who would sacrifice their victims to Kali.
At some point, clearly before 1993, when Tupac was recording “Thug Life,” blacks had culturally appropriated the word “thug” for themselves. Over time, the word thug has become associated with black street culture, almost entirely through the usage of the word by blacks themselves.
Fast forward thirty years. After appropriating the term thug, now it’s time to cry foul, and point the finger at the white “racists” when they use the word thug. Yes, the term has been ‘racialised,’ but not by whites, and most of us are unaware of this fact until being accused of being racially insensitive for using it when referring to violent black criminals.
Hey, here’s a thought, stop using the word! Stop identifying as thugs. Stop identifying as niggas. As gangstas. Quit using this nasty ghetto language and start using standard English. Pull those pants up while you’re at it. As long as there is a significant portion of the black community that glorifies the ‘thug life,’ the word will continue to be used more often when referring to violent black criminals.
LikeLike
@ KM
I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately, many Whites in the United States NEED to see Blacks as thugs and Muslims as terrorists (and, at least in the old days, Natives as savages) to feel good about themselves and their own violent history. A crystal clear example of that was Trayvon Martin, who was painted as a thug, NOT his killer, who had a documented history of violence. It was US history writ small.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@KM
You sound like somebody’s old uncle. 😴💤
LikeLike
Former President Obama used the word “thug” to admonish protesters in Baltimore and that was especially hurtful coming from the first black president, especially when black youth were protesting for the preservation of their lives. It was worse than if some bigoted white person had said it. One of the things that upset me during his administration was he had blind spots when it came to black lives in America.
LikeLike
Hey, here’s a thought, stop using the word! Stop identifying as thugs. Stop identifying as niggas. As gangstas. – KM
Slow down KM, … you are correct to a certain extent. But in the same vein, you are incorrect in applying these indiosyncratic behaviors towards all so-called African Americans across the board. This statement alone belies your personal hatred for reasons unbeknownst to me. Not that I care to know either.
In reality or more appropriately, you are simply referring to a sub-culture of so-called African Americans. Even further, the last time I checked, all cultures have some form of a sub-group(s) among themselves.
As an analogy, it would be the same if I was to foolishly say that all East Indians either smelled like curry, a bag of onions or just plain sweaty, although quite a few of them smell like this. Here, and unlike you, I am aware of only a small portion of Indians in fact do have a body odor, but not all of them as you clearly suggested in regards to African Americans all being “thugs” and “gangstas.”
Quit using this nasty ghetto language and start using standard English. – KM
So, … are you saying that all East Indians speak perfectly standard English? (chuckles)
LikeLiked by 1 person
what about the term “jackbooted thugs”? This bears no association with black people; if anything it is connected to military/state forces
LikeLike
Well, Mike Pence did call the Capitol rioters thugs.
LikeLike