Witness #40 (1969- ), a White American woman, was one of the witnesses brought before the grand jury that looked into the shooting death of Michael Brown, an unarmed Black 18-year-old gunned down in Ferguson, Missouri by Darren Wilson, a White police officer.
She is best known for saying:
“The cop just stood there dang if that kid didn’t start running right at the cop like a football player head down.”
which supports Darren Wilson’s account. She said it seemed like Brown was “on something”.
The FBI interviewed her for an hour and a half on October 22nd 2014, months after the shooting. They tore her story to pieces.
Her story matched what could be found on the Internet, particularly on right-wing websites. She has Wilson stand by his car instead of running 130 feet (31m). She says she left the neighbourhood in a way that was impossible but which matched the out-of-date map on MapQuest.
Her car never appears on the security camera video of the gas station she said she stopped at. Nor does it ever appear on the video of cars headed towards the crime scene.
No one can remember her saying she was a witness till two weeks later. She said she did not want to get mixed up in it – yet went online saying stuff like:
“They need to kill the fucking niggers. It is like an ape fest.”
She raised money for Darren Wilson and wanted to have schoolchildren send him home-made Christmas cards in support.
She told the FBI that her memory was not great, that she had suffered brain damage from a car accident.
Bob McCulloch, the county prosecutor, put her on the stand as a “witness”, as part of presenting “all the evidence”.
After the grand jury heard the recording of the FBI interview, she admitted to lying to the FBI. Then, just as she was about to step down, she added:
“On August 9th after this happened when I got home, I wrote everything down on a piece of paper, would that be easier if I brought that in?”
Something she had not told the FBI, something she could have written down on a piece of paper that night when she got home. McCulloch added it as part of her testimony. It starts out like this:
“Aug 9th – Saturday
8amWell I’m gonna take my random drive to Florissant. Need to understand the Black race better so I stop calling Blacks Niggers and start calling them People. Like dad always said you cant fear or hate an entire race cause of what one man did 40 yrs ago.”
It is where the “football player head down” quote comes from (pictured above).
While the grand jury may have regarded her as a nutcase, right-wing Fox News certainly did not. Sean Hannity repeated the football player quote at least six times as if she were a serious witness.
Fox News has about half the cable news audience in the US.
Sources: Document Cloud, Daily Kos, MSNBC.
See also:
- Michael Brown
- Darren Wilson
- Ferguson – Ferguson II
- Bob McCulloch
- grand jury
- The Five Rules of Racial Standing – White jurors believe White witnesses over Black ones
- The Republican bubble
- The N-word
And imagine people spread what she said like it was the gospel. That is part of my shock. None of the people that spread this cared to fact check.
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So often when I hear the supposed behaviors unarmed Blacks exhibit when confronted with armed individuals it’s always so ILLOGICAL. It makes no sense. I stole cigars, a misdemeanor at best, so I am going to wrestle the police for his gun rather than be taken in, booked and back on the streets in hours. Instead of surrendering to an armed policeman, I’m going to charge him, at top speed, with head down, for a distance of 130ft, with almost NO chance of transversing the distance alive.
Surprisingly, all of this illogical behavior makes PERFECT sense to some Whites when they hear it. I think it’s because it sounds like instinctual, animal like behavior. You know like a Silverback Gorilla charging a hunter instead of running in the opposite direction when the gun comes out. This type of behavior makes since to a lot of Whites because they view Blacks as little more than animals.
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Unbelievable.
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..Ugh, I don’t know whether to laugh at this nutter’s stupidity, cry at the way in which the bigoted idiots of this country Actually pay attention to her drivel, or just vomit in my mouth at the disgusting-ness of it all!? (Rolling my eyes at the embarrassment of this krazyness of this plantation/nation)!!
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The American Justice system is doing an excellent job of making a mockery of itself. I look at the American Justice system and think what Justice system?
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This was just like in the Trayvon Martin trial with Zimmerman and that brain dead juror. This is how justice is metted out in this country. This really is a travesty of justice. This is just sick. SMDH.
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There are two general versions of events.
Version #1. Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson assaulted Officer Wilson in his vehicle. Brown and Wilson struggled over the gun, shots were fired and the two suspects fled. Officer Wilson ordered Brown to stop at which point Brown turned and charged the officer. Officer Wilson shot Brown several times killing him.
Version #2. Officer Wilson grabbed Brown by the throat and tried to pull him into the vehicle. Brown broke free and ran away at which point Officer Wilson shot him several times in the back while his hands were raised followed a final shot while Brown laid on the ground.
Alleged “witnesses” claim both versions. The autopsy, however, shows Brown was shot in the front not the back. More specifically, Brown was shot several times in the front of his arms at an angle which could not have happened if they were raised. Furthermore, the blood trail leads toward Officer Wilson not away from him. Therefore, the evidence corroborates Version #1 and shows that those “witnesses” claiming Version #2 were lying.
That doesn’t mean witness #40 was there or saw it. Nor does a witness lying about being there and seeing it discredit the evidence and testimony of those who were. However, racists who are unhappy with the grand jury’s decision would like to use questions about Witness #40’s credibility to discredit it.
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@ Big Momma
1. Version #2 is a straw man. How many witnesses – or even commenters on this blog – said Wilson “shot him several times in the back while his hands were raised”?
2. If Version #1 is so certain, then why do Bob McCulloch and Sean Hannity push Witness #40 as a serious witness? Sounds like they are grasping at straws.
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In many high profile cases people make up lies to insert themselves in the story. The DA should have dismissed her and never presented anything she said to the jury or allowed her to testify. If Wilson had gone to trail his lawyer could’ve called witness 40. Which I am guessing would have never happened because she is an obvious liar. The DA should be embarrassed and ashamed.
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“Version #2 is a straw man. How many witnesses – or even commenters on this blog – said Wilson ‘shot him several times in the back while his hands were raised?’ ”
I didn’t attribute either version to anyone. I merely said there were two versions. Since you asked, version #2 was the version Dorian Johnson gave to police. Without it there’s no case against Wilson. So it’s not a straw man.
“If Version #1 is so certain, then why do Bob McCulloch and Sean Hannity push Witness #40 as a serious witness?”
I’m not aware that 40 was “pushed as a serious witness” any more than the rest. Should the prosecutor have excluded 40’s testimony? And if so then on what grounds should they have excluded it?
“Sounds like they are grasping at straws.”
Witness 40’s testimony matches the evidence and what was reported by most of the other witnesses. Sounds like you’re the one grasping at straws to detract from the fact Wilson was unjustly accused..
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@ Big Momma
“what was reported by most of the other witnesses.”—-When you say most other witnesses, How many other witnesses and which ones?
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I also believe abagond asked the very same things that you conveniently deflected from.
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BM, maybe you’ve researched the witnesses thoroughly (I haven’t honestly), but who besides Dorian (the robbery accomplice) provided testimony that indicated that officer Wilson committed murder?
I would think Dorian’s testimony gets tossed for much of the same reason that witness 40’s should be (if what is said about her is true). It is a little strange that abagond didn’t have any post about the conflicts that Dorian might have had and any criminal record he would have.. I know abagond is very careful to report both sides of the case and wouldn’t only attack the prosecution…
In any case, even if officer Wilson wasn’t guilty of murder and Michael Brown was a robber thug who was drugged up and tried to attack officer Wilson in his car instead of peacefully surrendering (which it seems clearly he didn’t do), it’s possible that witness 40 signifies bad things about the prosecution. Let’s get a saying going, “If the witness is $h!t, you cannot acquit!”
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@Biff. Dorian Wilson was actually there, no dispute of that. his testimony can be examined and dissected by the DA and the defense if there was a real trail. This woman told a bunch of lies and the DA allowed her testimony and put her on the stand knowing she was a liar. If the DA knew other witnesses were liars and trying to help convict Wilson and they weren’t there he shouldn’t have called them either.
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Something is really wrong with white people. No doubt about it.
I think many of them are unaware of where they really come from.
There are pictures of children with tails and they’re white. They try hide them
But they’re out there.
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@ Big Momma
Where does Dorian Johnson say that Wilson “shot him several times in the back”?
If “Witness 40’s testimony matches the evidence and what was reported by most of the other witnesses.”, then why put her on the stand at all? Why would Fox News be stupid enough to quote her? It reeks of desperation (or profound contempt).
I am pretty sure I could have come up with a way better story than hers, certainly better researched, realistic and thought out, but I doubt very much McCulloch would put me on the stand – nor should he, of course. Nor would Fox News quote me because it would not fit their project of White innocence.
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@ Biff
Sparger took the words out of my mouth.
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eh, Sparger’s comment makes sense (and is very articulate). And I shouldn’t have used the words “gets tossed”. I just mean Dorian’s testimony is very likely to be disregarded, especially if it contradicts other witnesses and the autopsy reports. I still haven’t heard any evidence that the majority of witnesses (with or without 40) clearly indicated that officer Wilson commited a crime. Without that, there is just no convicting a cop.
It’s clear the prosecution didn’t want to bring this case. Isn’t it at least possible that they honestly felt there was no case and genuinely resented being forced to bring a case by what they perceived as a senseless mob that mistakenly believed there was evidence Michael Brown had his hands up? If so, maybe they were somewhat sloppy, but at least trying to do the right thing in their mind?
Also, hypotethically, what if convicting cops for acting inappropriately in the line of duty could save 2 or 3 innocent lives per year, but ended up causing 2 or 300 hundred more deaths because cops were less willing to act? Would it still be worth it to have the “justice” of prosecuting the cops, even if the end result was much worse?
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Can someone explain the difference between getting tossed and being disregarded?
And why is the credibility of the testimony of Dorian Johnson, who was definitively there and witnessed the entire encounter compared with Witness #40 who was not there and made everything up?
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jefe:
It may have been in dispute whether Witness #40 was actually there. However, as abagond noted “the grand jury may have regarded her as a nutcase” and the prosecution pretty much tore up her credibility. Some quotes from a story (probably similar to what abagond read) ““I know what I seen,” she said. “I know you don’t believe me.”When asked what she was doing in Ferguson–which is about 30 miles north of her home–McElroy explained that she was planning to “pop in” on a former high school classmate she had not seen in 26 years. “” (FBI interview heard by the jury) “Before testifying about the content of her notebook scribblings, McElroy admitted that she had not driven to Ferguson in search of an African-American pal she had last seen in 1988. Instead, McElroy offered a substitute explanation..” “During her grand jury testimony, “Witness 40” revealed that she pleaded guilty to a pair of felony “check fraud” charges in 2007. She recalled being sentenced to three years probation as part of an “SIS” (suspended imposition of sentence). ” “Near the end of her testimony, McElroy was questioned about a Facebook page she had started to raise money for Wilson.”
So, yes, Fox News may have missed the importance of this witness, but how likely is it that the jury paid her any mind?.. it’s possible she harmed officer Wilson’s case, especially if they read her racist language from the journal she submitted…
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The Smoking Gun has identified Witness #40 as Sandy McElroy.
Shaun King in today’s Daily Kos:
More:
http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/16/1352210/-How-Sandy-McElroy-and-Prosecutor-Bob-McCulloch-colluded-to-destroy-the-case-against-Darren-Wilson
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@ Biff
As it turns out, the grand jury did not believe she was lying. See my comment above.
In general, White jurors will believe White witnesses over Black ones.
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“Where does Dorian Johnson say that Wilson “shot him several times in the back?’ ”
There were a number of witnesses. Details will always vary slightly from one witness to another. However, two distinctly different versions emerged. The specific details Dorian gave were that Wilson first shot Brown in the back, Brown turned and Wilson shot him several more times while his hands were raised. The evidence shows that’s impossible.
“If “Witness 40’s testimony matches the evidence and what was reported by most of the other witnesses.”, then why put her on the stand at all? Why would Fox News be stupid enough to quote her? It reeks of desperation (or profound contempt).”
If Dorian’s testimony doesn’t match the evidence and what was reported by other witnesses then why put him on the stand at all? Why would CNN and MSNBC be stupid enough to quote him? It reeks of desperation (or profound contempt)
I seriously doubt #40 was there but has it been proven? I also doubt witnesses claiming Brown was shot in the back were there. Especially since Brown wasn’t shot in the back. Can’t prove that either. Prosecutors put witnesses on the stand and question them whether they believe them or not. Then they’ll discredit them during questioning. If they can prove the witness lied then they charge them with perjury and have their testimony stricken. Otherwise the jury decides how much weight to give them.
“I am pretty sure I could have come up with a way better story than hers, certainly better researched, realistic and thought out”
I doubt it. Her testimony fits the facts a lot better than “Hands up. Don’t Loot.” and you had that as the photo at the top of your webpage.
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@ Big Momma
AGAIN, WHERE DOES DORIAN JOHNSON SAY THAT WILSON “SHOT HIM SEVERAL TIMES IN THE BACK”?
No witness is perfect, but there is a huge difference between Dorian Johnson WHO WAS THERE and Witness #40 who was not. There is no moral equivalence between them, nor, likewise, between Fox News and CNN in this case.
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“AGAIN, WHERE DOES DORIAN JOHNSON SAY THAT WILSON “SHOT HIM SEVERAL TIMES IN THE BACK”?”
AGAIN, THE SPECIFIC DETAILS DORIAN GAVE WERE THAT WILSON SHOT BROWN IN THE BACK, BROWN TURNED AND WILSON SHOT HIM SEVERAL MORE TIMES WHILE HIS HANDS WERE RAISED. THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE.
“No witness is perfect, but there is a huge difference between Dorian Johnson WHO WAS THERE and Witness #40 who was not.”
Has it been proven #40 wasn’t there?
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@ Big Momma and others who may be confused
This is what Dorian Johnson said in his testimony that can be found in court documents.
“The first car? They didn’t drive through the driveway, they pulled on the sidewalk to drive past the police officer. Once they pulled off, I was even more visible now. I’m standing straight, the officer’s back is towards me, Big Mike’s back is towards me and the officer because he is running away. I’m watching the officer, he’s walking and Big Mike gets past the third car, the final car before the second shot is fired. It was the second shot fired, pow, the officer shot. I don’t know if it hit, I wasn’t that close to see that it struck Big Mike, but the manner that he jerked and just stopped in his track, I sense that he was hit again.”
“The first time I definitely knew, I definitely saw him get shot the first time, he had been struck one time already. The second time he shot, I didn’t know if it hit him or not, but he kind of jerked and that’s when he stopped running. He just kind of stopped and turned around at the officer. And now he’s face-to-face with the officer, but not so close. Now, Big Mike is probably he’s not fully at the driveway, but he gets probably to the curb of the driveway when the second shot, and now at the second shot, the officer, I’ll just put DW, he’s passing the third vehicle.”
So please point to the part where he said not only that he was shot in the back but he was shot in the back several times.
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I have a link if you need it.
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@ Sharina
Thank you!
@ Big Momma
Sharina got what I meant. Please answer her question.
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@ Big Momma
Yes, of course. Reread the post. She said she left the neighbourhood in a way that was impossible because it had been blocked off – something that was not apparent on MapQuest, but which she would have known if she had actually been there. Also, the police has a video of all the cars that headed towards the crime scene. Her car never appears.
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I’m no expert, but shouldn’t she have been charged with perjury or something?
Anyway, it just shows how nonexistent journalistic integrity is on the part of Fox News when they consider this woman as a viable witness while disregarding her obvious racism.
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BW said “Anyway, it just shows how nonexistent journalistic integrity is on the part of Fox News when they consider this woman as a viable witness while disregarding her obvious racism.”
It goes both ways. Autopsy reports and the majority of the witnesses (even without 40) indicate that the hands up bit is pure fiction, but it keeps getting ginned up by the media to create anger.
Since the burden of proof (even if it’s a lower standard of proof to just get a trial) is on the prosecution to make a compelling case (rather than the defense), let’s have abagond or one of the other pro-Brown commenters (rather than Wilson defender BM) here produce a short summary of all of the witnesses called and whether the testimony of most of them seems to clearly support the idea that officer Wilson committed a crime.
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@biff
What is considered the majority of witnesses and which ones said his hands were up and which ones said they were not up?
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Or biff you could do this thing called read the transcripts yourself and then you won’t need anyone to summarize anything. Oh wait I forgot. That is just too hard. Much easier to listen to the news or whatever source agrees with you.
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@ Biff
You keep saying that. Where are you even getting that from?
McCulloch at the press conference said that the three autopsies were broadly consistent. The one I heard said that you could not tell whether or not his hands were up.
McCulloch himself said you could not tell whether or not his hands were up.
Darren Wilson himself, under oath, did not say one way or the other whether his hands were up.
PBS NewsHour, which read through 500 pages of the grand jury testimony, said that
More:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/newly-released-witness-testimony-tell-us-michael-brown-shooting/
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Sharina: Reading comp fail. Burden of proof is on those making the case that the trial result was unfair. I don’t listen to the news or even watch TV. I don’t live in the U.S.
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“More than 50 percent of the witness statements said that Michael Brown held his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. (16 out of 29 such statements)”
Were they saying he was giving up? I had thought there was some speculation that he was charging officer Wilson with hands partially raised in a threatening manner or fighting stance. If 16 of 29 witnesses indicated that Michael Brown was “clearly surrendering” I would be convinced that a trial definitely should have been had. Please provide a source if that’s the case. Hands raised while possibly rushing at Wilson gets nothing.
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What has been repeated many many times is that most witnesses generally backed up officer Wilson’s account of events. If that is NOT the case. Please provide CLEAR EVIDENCE. Thanks.
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@ biff
This was NOT a trial. It was a grand jury hearing. There is an extremely important difference between the two, one that McCulloch used to get Darren Wilson off. It is a trick he and many other public prosecutors have used successfully in other police shootings. For one thing, it means witnesses are not cross examined. It also keeps the police’s dirty laundry from being aired in public.
More:
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biff
I swear if I didn’t feel sorry for how slow you were then I wouldn’t bother to explain. You are the one asking people to provide a summary of all the witnesses called ( I will quote you if necessary). If a claim was made by said people then it would be expected that they do, but in the mean time you are the one that wants that information so you can go do the research. 🙂
“I don’t listen to the news or even watch TV.”—-I didn’t know a TV was required for you to listen to the news, but interesting enough most if not all the you regurgitate is exactly what is said on the news. Nice lie…I mean try.
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@ biff
I gave you my source:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/newly-released-witness-testimony-tell-us-michael-brown-shooting/
If you look on their chart, only 4 out of 21 witnesses agreed with Wilson that Brown charged at him or his car. That means 81% did not back up his story.
Most witnesses say that Wilson fired on Brown with his hands up.
Most witnesses say that Wilson fired on Brown while he was running away.
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Interesting source, which begins with this “In the grand jury case against Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, the prosecution revealed that physical evidence weighed in Wilson’s favor and that he had not unlawfully shot 18-year-old Michael Brown to death.”
I think we would need to know more of what the witnesses specifically said. As noted above, having hands somewhat raised doesn’t necessarly indicate surrender. Additionally, forensics indicate that Brown wasn’t shot in the back. The witnesses also indicate that he was shot while facing Wilson. It definitely could have been the case that Wilson fired a couple rounds while Brown was fleeing and there are some rules about that (maybe differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but I think it may be permissible in some cases to shoot at an escaping felon who refuses to surrender–and his assault of Wilson could be taken into consideration).
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“Sharina got what I meant. Please answer her question.”
I got what you meant, too, and answered you twice. If you want to make the issue about the wording in my first comment then I’ll be crystal clear so there’s no more misunderstanding. Dorian said Brown was shot once in the back as he ran away and several times after he turned around with his hands raised.
From Dorian’s August 15th CNN interview;
“I saw the officer proceeding after my friend Big Mike with his gun drawn, and he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike,” Johnson told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “And at that time, he turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting. But at that time, the officer firing several more shots into my friend, and he hit the ground and died.”
In August Dorian said the officer shot Brown in the back but in the transcript sharmal quoted, Dorian said he wasn’t sure if Brown was shot in the back or not. Dorian changed his story.
The basis of the allegations against Wilson were that he shot Brown in the back as he ran away and several more times after he turned around with his hands raised. The autopsy showed neither of those were true.
“Has it been proven #40 wasn’t there?”
“Yes, of course. Reread the post.”
That’s your opinion. Maybe if racists hadn’t told so many lies against Wilson shooting Brown in the back, with his hands raised, etc or perpetrated so much rioting, looting, vandalism and arson in Ferguson I might care.
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“If you look on their chart, only 4 out of 21 witnesses agreed with Wilson that Brown charged at him or his car. That means 81% did not back up his story.”
5 witnesses said Brown charged Wilson, 4 said he didn’t and the rest didn’t say one way or the other.
“Most witnesses say that Wilson fired on Brown with his hands up.
Most witnesses say that Wilson fired on Brown while he was running away.”
The autopsy showed no bullets struck Brown either in the back or with his hands raised. The evidence supports Wilson.
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@Sharina, re your reply to a commenter
You can be very compassionate sometimes. I suppose I feel the need to distinguish between the accidentally obtuse and the willfully obtuse.
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When logical argument fails you, Kiwi proves that you can always go back to ad hominem.
BM, now here is a good opportunity to clear your name (if you can). Are you a murderer? How did this referenced killing of a black man take place exactly?
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Kiwi, you’re just butthurt because I already “outed” you here.
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@Big momma
“he fired a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike,”—–Even in what you quoted it does not say he was hit in the back. It says he was running away and he was hit. Most people with common sense would think ….hit where? Leg? Arm? Back? Shoulder? You get my point.
But if that is the lie you choose to tell.
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@Jefe
“I suppose I feel the need to distinguish between the accidentally obtuse and the willfully obtuse.”—–sorry but this is a moment I do not follow. Do you mind explaining?
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“It says he was running away and he was hit. Most people with common sense would think ….hit where? Leg? Arm? Back? Shoulder? ”
If it was then it would be the back of his arm, leg, shoulder, torso… unless he was running backwards. He wasn’t shot running away was he?
“Are you a murderer? How did this referenced killing of a black man take place exactly?”
Nope. She probly OD’d on midol and hallucinated it. lols
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@Big Momma
“He wasn’t shot running away was he?”—No and nor is that the argument here. You quoted something stating that this witness said he was shot specifically in the back. So now are you going to jump on the band wagon of he was not hit anywhere on the back side to avoid your inaccurate assumption that he was said to be hit in the back?
So again where in your quote did it say he was hit in the back? I will provide it for you again.
“a second shot and that struck my friend Big Mike”
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@ Kiwi
This comment here confirms that Big Momma is da jokah or whatever name he comes up with.
“sharmal quoted, Dorian said he wasn’t sure if Brown was shot in the back or not. Dorian changed his story.”
Da jokah was the only one that got so upset at what I said that he would resort to name calling that resulted in butchering my name in a certain manner. It also would not make sense for someone I barely interact with to take time to butcher my name over a simple quote.
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@Kiwi:
I think Big Momma and Biff are dating!
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@Sharina
Someone who is accidentally obtuse might be that way because they have just have no clue, or have not had the personal experience to relate. With some edification, they might be able to be enlightened. But again maybe not.
On the other hand, the willfully obtuse does not want edification. They want to remain obtuse.
So, you are indeed very patient and hopeful. Or perhaps just wasting your time.
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@Jefe
Thanks for explaining. I will say both. I am hopeful it will just click, but I know I am wasting my time.
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Herneith
Surely you jest. I believe biff and big momma are indeed married. Lol.
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Sharina, let me simplify it for you a little further. You said: ““I suppose I feel the need to distinguish between the accidentally obtuse and the willfully obtuse.”—–sorry but this is a moment I do not follow. Do you mind explaining?”
= accidentally obtuse.
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Sharina, to follow up on jefe’s helpful explanation by way of example,
“I suppose I feel the need to distinguish between the accidentally obtuse and the willfully obtuse.”—–sorry but this is a moment I do not follow. Do you mind explaining?
This is you being accidentaly obtuse.
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biff
So that means everything you say=willfully obtuse?
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Dang, thought my first comment got caught in moderation for some unknowable reason. More accidental obtuseness.
You guys need to work on your story. It’s either unrequited love, dating or marriage, but it can’t be all three.
Kiwi reacts pretty strongly to false characterizations of himself, but he hasn’t made any attempt to deny clear insinuations about his sexual orientation.
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@Kiwi
I think what him and thwack have is a one night stand. At any rate he does have a thing for ignoring femaleso while admiring the males in a strange way.
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Females*
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according to this article it seems that Johnson first told Brown was shot in the back. Then, after the autopsy results had been published in the media (and proved that Brown was not shot in the back ) he changed his story to a version were he was not sure if Brown was shot in the back. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/14/justice/ferguson-dorian-johnson-statements/
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@Erik Sieven
According to his first televised interview he did not say his friend was hit in the back. He was interviewed a few different times and the very first was right after the incident. The article is talking about the time he was interviewed with FBI and County. A time in which the autopsy was already likely out.
Your article also states “Johnson may have changed one aspect of his story after his interviewers pointed out he was relaying an assumption rather than an actual eyewitness account.” How true is that? Shrugs*
Isn’t amazing how you have no access to certain material you are asked to provide yet magically appear with anything that goes along with your bias ideas?
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http://aanirfan.blogspot.com/
Wednesday, 17 December 2014
OFFICIAL – EXECUTED KID WAS INNOCENT
George Junius Stinney, Jr.,1929 – 1944.
“Too many WHITE CHRISTIAN Americans just love to kill innocents NON-WHITES.
14-year-old George Stinney has been exonerated, after his execution.
GEORGE STINNEY WAS INNOCENT.
George Stinney was 14 years old when he was executed – the youngest person executed in the United States in the 20th Century.
In a South Carolina prison, guards walked the 14-year-old boy, bible tucked under his arm, to the electric chair.
At 5′ 1″ and 95 pounds, the straps didn’t fit, and an electrode was too big for his leg.
The switch was pulled.
Tears streamed from George’s eyes.
George’s confession was coerced, and, he was in fact innocent.”
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To Abagond:
According to the article below there were witnesses on both sides that admitted to fully or partially lying:
http://wwlp.com/2014/12/16/ferguson-witnesses-admit-they-lied-to-the-grand-jury/
“Thousands of pages of documents, made public, turn up several examples of testimony with little to no credibility. Witness 22, whose testimony was at first damaging to Officer Wilson, admitted she lied when pressed by investigators. Eventually telling the grand jury, quote: “I just felt like I want to be part of something…I didn’t see what I told the FBI…”
Testimony from witness 35 might have helped lead to an indictment of Officer Wilson, testifying that Michael Brown was, quote, “on his knees,” when shot in the head, by Wilson. However, it wasn’t true. The witness admits to making that story up. In one exchange, the prosecutor asked: “Are you telling us the only thing that’s true about all of your statements before this, is that you saw that police officer shoot him at-point blank range?” The answer: “Yes.”
It happened on both sides. Witness 40 supported Wilson’s version of what happened, but prosecutors revealed she posted a racist comment on-line on the day of the shooting, that read, quote: “They need to kill the ‘expletive,’ ‘expletive.’ It’s like an ape fest.” When questioned about what she allegedly saw, she admitted to having gathered some details from news reports.”
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@ Uncle Milton
I am not surprised. Garbage in, garbage out. That is why you need a trial.
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OFF TOPIC: George Stinney.
I already have a post on that:
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Abagond beat me to the punch. I was going to reply to UM, “all the more reason this needed to go to trial”.
Maybe one hopeful outcome would be to force the homicide of unarmed civilians. by cops to go to trial, disallowing grand juries to get them off due to the conflict of interest.
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@ Biff
1. That the “prosecution” found that the evidence favoured Wilson means little since McCulloch acted as Darren Wilson’s DEFENCE lawyer. The prosecution case was never seriously made. Which is why it never went to trial. No one representing Michael Brown’s family was able to cross-examine witnesses, present evidence or put experts on the stand. Bob McCulloch abused his power as county prosecutor. The whole thing was a complete farce.
2. The Supreme Court in Tennessee v Garner (1985) ruled that police cannot shoot on fleeing, unarmed suspects. That is the law for the whole country, not just for certain jurisdictions. McCulloch did not make that clear to the grand jury. Something he would have never got away with in open court since the judge would have jumped on that.
Many witnesses say Wilson shot at Brown while he was fleeing.
3. The shot-in-the-back thing is a right-wing straw man argument, one that Big Momma used too and yet, strangely, cannot not name and quote a single witness who plainly states that.
McCulloch said that the three autopsies broadly agree. The one that I know about said that he was shot in the arm, but because of the way arms twist around you cannot tell if the shots hit him while running away (thus Dorian Johnson’s flinch) or facing the officer with hands up.
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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/unmasking-Ferguson-witness-40-496236
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“The shot-in-the-back thing is a right-wing straw man argument, one that Big Momma used too and yet, strangely, cannot not name and quote a single witness who plainly states that.”—-Strangely that is what they were passing around the moment Mr. Johnson appeared to give testimony. This is why I don’t think many of them used any common sense or just assumed that it meant shot in the back.
Though it also points to a much bigger issue in their mindset if you ask me.
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@ Herneith
Thanks for the link. The woman had mental issues. She should have never…and I mean never been allowed to testify period. She simply was not there and I guess the fact that she said he was charging at the officer was more in their favor than her actually telling the truth.
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[…] Witness #40 […]
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Abagond:
“police cannot shoot on fleeing, unarmed suspects” is a gross oversimplification of “Law enforcement officers pursuing an unarmed suspect may use deadly force to prevent escape only if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.”
If there was as much evidence as you suggest that a crime was clearly committed, then I’m sure the civil suit would win. However, no one seems to think it has much chance… coincidence?
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There have been 324 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States. Each time the transcripts, the grand jury, the prosecutor and the witness’s all had it wrong.
There have been 150 people released from death row after new evidence or a retrial exonerated them of the crime, meaning they were proven innocent. Again the transcripts and the prosecutor were all so positive they had the right person and if it wasn’t for DNA, these people would still be rotting in prison due to negligence, incorrect witness memory or simple corruption and railroading for personal reasons or to get that conviction and move up the ladder. Our justice system should never be a place where the prosecutor is judged by how many convictions he gets but how much justice was served. It is better to have no convictions than to convict one innocent man.
Since 1989, 1,362 wrongfully imprisoned people nationwide have been released, according to the National Registry of Exonerations. Most are men, and most of them had been convicted of murder and sexual assault. Around the country, states have been changing their laws to help such people because getting a new trial is all but impossible and is a huge uphill battle. Only with help from an outside source can the innocent be heard. Can you imagine what the real numbers of innocent people may be, thousands and thousands.
The Los Angeles police rampart division scandal involved 100 overturned cases alone where police planted evidence or railroaded suspects.
The reason I am posting this information is that innocent men and women are being convicted and sent to prison for large portions of their lives. Most of them are people of color but many are white as well. This is not only a theft of a persons only life, it deprives them of family and memories that will never be returned and even worse exposes them to violence and despair only a prisoner can relate to.
In these cases the PROSECUTOR was 100% sure they had the right person. The Prosecutor had all the evidence pointing to the innocent person or arranged the evidence to point towards the innocent person. In these cases witness’s and sometimes the victim themselves testified that the innocent person was the perpetrator. In these cases the judge and/or jury thought they did the right thing and was so certain the person was guilty. The evidence and the transcripts all pointed towards the accused…..AND THEY WERE ALL WRONG!
In 2013 there were 90 overturned convictions alone. One man wasn’t even in the state when the murder took place and they still railroaded him, it took 24 years before the courts would look at the receipt showing him to be out of the state at the time. He had a public defender at the time.
Now before any one freaks out let me say this; no one is saying all the men in prison are innocent, many people in prison, probably most have committed many crimes and most are there for good reason but if only one innocent man goes to prison it is a travesty of justice of the worse kind, unimaginable and when you have maybe as many as 20% or higher it is unforgivable and big changes are needed, starting with the police…..Thank you.
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@ Biff
Thank you, but that still does not excuse Wilson from shooting on Brown while Brown was running away. The fact that Wilson did NOT shoot Brown in the back was not from a lack of intent but poor marksmanship. Wilson had tried to kill him BEFORE he says Brown charged at him.
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Abagond said,
” that still does not excuse Wilson from shooting on Brown while Brown was running away”
But, if “the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others” he can legally do so.
Given the fact that this dude had just committed a strong armed robbery, seemed (and was) high on drugs and then cursed at an attacked a police officer and attempted to get his gun (and could turn around and charge, as he did), I’m going to have to say it’s very possible a jury would feel that the exception noted above applied in this case.
In any case, given the massive amount of evidence (that you believe exists), why isn’t the civil case going anywhere? Seems they could get a huge settlement right? And if there’s no ability to get the civil case, why would you ever think it would be possible to get a criminal conviction with a higher standard of proof. If there’s no possiblity of a ciminal conviction, then the DA absolutely shouldn’t have brought the case, so even grand jury is a waste of time…
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“Because stealing, drugs, and battery are enough to warrant an execution without trial.”
Kiwi, if you give up obviously you shouldn’t get shot at. If you are going to go kill or seriously hurt other people, yeah, sometimes you may need to get stopped. The rule of law is to enforce respect for the law. When someone can attack a cop with impunity, there is no rule of law. Maybe you’ll never have to live in a poor area where you risk getting beaten up by lawless thugs everyday. If you do, you will change your tune right quick. Anyway, show me where I have shown a double standard re: “white criminals”? No one even cares about white criminals in the U.S. and certainly not on this blog.
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“Biff, Given the fact that this dude had just committed a strong armed robbery, seemed (and was) high on drugs and then cursed at an attacked a police officer and attempted to get his gun (and could turn around and charge, as he did), I’m going to have to say it’s very possible a jury would feel that the exception noted above applied in this case.”
Linda says,
Biff, this is where I lose respect for people like yourself…”strong armed robbery” — GTFOH
If Mike had paid for all the cigars,(instead of just the some that he did pay for, and he pushed the store clerk, we would have never heard about this incident. The cops wouldn’t have been called over the push.
You are like a parroting “rat” that repeats everything his master says in hopes of getting rewarded with stale cheese.
You are not a lawyer or police officer — amongst us “regular folk” you can call what Mike did by it’s scientific name: “shoplifting”
the same term used when white girls get caught stealing clothes, jewelry and other expensive items that cost more than a .40 cent cigar
and as for the rest– absolute BS…. Darren Wilson was a cop, who was a bully
“a video emerged Friday showing Wilson arresting a man for recording him, telling him, “If you wanna take a picture of me one more time, I’m gonna lock your ass up.”
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/11/ferguson-darren-wilson/
Why didn’t Darren Wilson shoot John Blumenthal, when Blumenthal caught Wilson in his house, cheating with Blumenthal’s wife.
“Documents filed at Hillsboro, Missouri’s Jefferson County Court on July 1 2013 detail the grim events of the midnight brawl between Blumenthal, the mother of his child and her lover and colleague Wilson.
Blumenthal pleaded guilty to two counts of disturbance of the peace and one of destruction of property.
In his probable cause statement Wilson ‘advised that the defendant attempted to strike him several times with a closed fist, as well as placed him in a headlock, causing abrasions to his face and chest.
‘The victim further stated that the defendant kicked his vehicle, causing a dent which would cost approximately five hundred dollars to fix.’
To add a further layer of complexity to Wilson’s fraught domestic background, he was still married to his first wife, Ashley Brown, 30, at the time the incident took place, although the couple had separated three months earlier.”
So Blumenthal was face-to-face with Wilson AND hitting him, plus kicked his car for good measure. (unlike Mike Brown who was more than 50 feet away from Wilson/ running away, while Wilson had bullets flying)
I’m sure John Blumenthal looked like a “raging bull” also since he caught red-handed, his cheating wife with her cheating boyfriend (Darren Wilson) –
why didn’t Wilson shoot Blumenthal, a man who WAS charging and hitting him
f’ing hypocritical, racist pig
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I forgot to add the link about Wilson’s fight with John Blumenthal:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2851015/Darren-Wilson-violent-confrontation-wife-s-ex-lover-Court-documents-reveal-volatile-home-life-officer-shot-Michael-Brown-grand-jury-never-told-of.html
Anyway, Biff and other racists who love to see black people killed.
Darren Wilson grew up in a troubled home, with a mother who was a thief and a convicted felon. Mike Brown was trying to straighten out his life, the same way Darren Wilson managed to eventually straighten out his.
Wilson could have kept rolling and left those boys alone (he knew Nothing about Mike shoplifting a few Cigars prior when he rolled up next to him)
but he chose to bother them by telling them to “get out of the road” — he even reversed his car backwards to “talk to them” again — as if real crime wasn’t happening somewhere in the city.
As an officer of the law, he could have handled that whole situation differently.
I don’t think Mike Brown was suicidal and every black boy and man in America knows that “laying hands” on a policeman is tantamount to suicide.
So, please, please, save whatever credibility you have left and stop talking bull…
Wilson got mad because Mike hit him, in Mikes efforts to “get away” from a bully cop, that was intent on causing him harm
“Wilson said Brown would be alive today if he had just followed his original order to stop walking on the street, and move to the sidewalk”
The USA is a Police State — it is just that simple
Stop acting like policemen don’t have “God-complexes” and don’t Abuse their power
because if you truly believe otherwise, then you are delusional, as well as a racist
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Does anybody want to wager whether or not Michael Browns family will win a civil case? Remember this will be within the time frame of civil litigation, which can take several years, the federal investigation is not even over. The Nicole Brown family didn’t win their civil case for 2 years after the original trial. The Brown’s will end up with a settlement, there is no doubt about that.
The problem with the system, other than it is corrupt, bias, racist and wrong probably 20 to 50% of the time, is that the authorities give cops too much leeway. If you think your life is in danger go ahead and shoot, we’ll sort it out later. Do you “think” he might be a danger to others as he runs away, go ahead and shoot, no one will care when we tell them he was a maniac. Cops are paid to risk their lives so do it and stop acting like bitches. Police people, don’t murder them. The punishment shall fit the crime…Hello shoplifting is not a Death sentence and neither is running from the cops, neither is telling them to fuck off.
I told this story once already but I will tell it again. I am white and when I was young and being stupid I was pulled over intoxicated on more than 4 occasions. I was treated exceptionally well and 3 out of 4 times was let go. One time I even smarted off to the two officers asking them if they wanted to arm wrestle for my speeding ticket. One officer said, “you should shut your mouth because we are giving you a break.” True I was stupid but this next one will blow your mind. After drinking with my coworkers for a couple hours I ran a stop sign and in my rear view mirror saw a policeman do a U-turn, I stepped on it and he chased me down a residential area, I lost him in my Iroq Z28 and turned into a driveway and shut off my car and lights. It was quiet for a long time but he eventually found me and walked up to my window, knocked on it and told me to roll it down. He asked me why I ran, I told him I was scared and that I had been drinking. He wrote me a ticket for a stop sign violation and let me go. Now although I personally was glad and thankful at the time, I do not believe for a nanosecond those white officers would have let a Black man go on any of those instances.
THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN IN ANY DEVELOPED NATION EXCEPT THE U.S., but in my opinion much of the people in this country are far from developed morally, racially or equally and all the facts point to that.
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Linda and Kiwi…..very well said, I agree.
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@ Linda
Applause.
@ everyone else
My husband and I had a conversation about this last night and his question to me was….At what point is it ok to fight the cop back? No one wants to take an azz woopin from a cop just because the cops can. You don’t really know if that beat down will leave you dead or alive. So it is very reasonable for people to want to know, when can I protect myself? hmmm….
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@William the Conqueror
Did they file one? If they did then I am not sure I see the lawsuit in the manner some might. The money can be a help but I feel justice and change is more important. If they indeed win then it will be a payoff to say “yeah we screwed up! Here is some money to help you forget about it.”
Plus I heard the tax payers end up paying for it.
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Kiwi:
The referenced cite doesn’t show any double standard. As to demographics of crime in LA/California, you’re in a good position to check it out if you wanted to. Reporting facts is not a double standard. I have not argued for leniency for white crimes.
William:
I’m genuinely appalled by what happened to you. You absolutely should have been locked up. You could have killed people with repeated drunk driving and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself and thankful that you didn’t kill anyone, rather than hating your race for giving you undeserved leniency. You are still exhibiting extremely bad judgment. It’s just of another kind. Unfortunately, on a larger scale, it is even more destructive. I hope you can wake up someday.
Linda:
Read the top comments to the article you linked to all calling it sensationalist garbage. The actual account (despite the misleading headline) just shows Darren Wilson got beat up by the ex of a woman he was seeing, who he later made his wife. He was also in the process of divorcing his wife at the time. Sure, divorce is horrible, but nothing in the article indicates Darren did anything to break up a happy marriage or that he was an aggressor, let alone that he broke any law. He’s pure beta though… wifing up an older woman with a kid by another man… sad man.
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Dorian said Wilson shot Brown while he was running away. This means Dorian was shot in the back aka rearward facing portion of his body whether that be the back of his head, arms, legs or torso. Brown’s autopsy shows that he was not shot in the rearward facing portion of his body. Your nitpicking the definition of “back” to distract from the fact that allegations against Wilson were built on a lie. Even more absurd, you’ve turned Brown into a contortionist by claiming he could have been shot in the front of his arms “because of the way arms twist around you”. I don’t know anyone who runs with their arms twisted around behind them. Perhaps now someone will claim Wilson was a trick shot artist and shot several bullets PAST Brown that ricocheted back and hit him in the front of his arm? That’s fancy shooting, pardner!
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Sharinalr……I am not sure if they filed a civil suit yet, I was only predicting that if they do they will surely win. It will however take a few years before this transpires; one it is a slow process and two, the police department likes to wait until the story gets cold and then they do their payouts so they don’t look guilty, which they are.
biff…..”rather than hating your race”
On the contrary, it is because I love the human race that I stand hand in hand with the good people of this world who are opposed to, oppression, racism, systematic inequality, police brutality, torture, poverty, bigotry, the conservative Hippocratic military industrial complex and all that other crap. If you fall into one of these groups then I might harbor some dislike for you.
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William said: “I stand hand in hand with the good people of this world who are opposed to, oppression, racism, systematic inequality, police brutality, torture, poverty, bigotry, the conservative Hippocratic military industrial complex and all that other crap.”
With the possible exception of the fall of communism (far left ideology), look around the world and all these things have gotten worse in last 60 years as leftist ideology destroys civilization. Take your eyes off the token AA appointees and see the explosion in prison populations, homeless, destroyed marriages, fatherless children, unemployment and underemployment and faithlessness. And it’s only getting WORSE. The solution you would seek will actually make the problems you hate WORSE. You don’t get it.
Wake up, William.
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@ Big Momma
When they do an autopsy they turn the arms so that the palms of your hands face up on the table. But people do not run or walk in that position.
One of the medical examiners himself said that arms twist around so much that you cannot tell when or how the bullets struck Brown in the arm.
You are trying to use the autopsy to show that Dorian Johnson lied. The autopsy is not clear on that point.
Far more clear cut is the fact that Witness #40’s car never appears in any of the videos or photos when it should have if her account were true.
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“This means Dorian was shot in the back aka rearward facing portion of his body whether that be the back of his head, arms, legs or torso.”—–I was not aware Dorian was shot at all. Has it occurred to or does it register that a person can shoot at someone and miss while they are running or is it just me noticing a clear disconnect of common sense in statements such as these?
“Your nitpicking the definition of “back” to distract from the fact that allegations against Wilson were built on a lie. “—-yet based on a simple say so you jumped from shot in the back to “could be leg, arm, torso” to make it fit your falsified narrative. Yet you have not found a statement that clearly says shot in the back further than what you interpreted his statement to mean.
And according to something I read good Ole prosecutor Bob believes Wilson is such a shot. When asked about the second casing close to the very first. The one no one wants to explain.
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@ Big Momma
Bob McCulloch, the county prosecutor himself, admits that Witness #40 was not there:
Source (which Origin linked to on the Andrew Hawkins thread):
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/19/1353052/-Under-pressure-St-Louis-prosecutor-Bob-McCulloch-admits-he-called-witnesses-who-were-lying#
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“Biff,
but nothing in the article indicates Darren did anything to break up a happy marriage or that he was an aggressor, let alone that he broke any law.”
Linda says,
I could care less about Wilson breaking up an “unhappy home” or him committing adultery (because cheating is what broke up his and her marriage)
I was highlighting Darren Wilson’s hypocrisy and lack of morality.
He was in more danger from John Blumenthal than he ever was from Mike Brown –
John Blumenthal was actively kicking his a’s!
and this was a real moment where Wilson could have gotten himself killed. (enraged husband)
all cops keep their weapons close by and the girlfriend was also a cop —
amazing how Wilson managed to not shoot John before, during, and after the fight, assault on the John’s wife, and kicking in Wison’s car.
Darren Wilson stinks like the pile of garbage he is.
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Linda said:
“John Blumenthal was actively kicking his a’s!
and this was a real moment where Wilson could have gotten himself killed. (enraged husband)”
From the article you cited:
“He immediately became aggressive and started hitting my boyfriend with a pillow…”
“‘The victim further stated that the defendant kicked his vehicle, causing a dent which would cost approximately five hundred dollars to fix.”
This is how white boys fight. (Yes, I know there were other details, but a pillowfight???)
Word to your mother.
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bIFF….”leftist ideology destroys civilization”
I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF HOW LIBERALISM HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ONE SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CLAIMS?
ONCE YOU RESPOND THEN I WILL REPLY WITH THE LONGEST POST EVER POSTED ON CONSERVATISM AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS WORLD. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR POINTS WERE THE DIRECT CAUSE OF RIGHTWING POLICY, INEQUALITY, CORPORATISM AND WHITE COLONIALISM, EVERY SINGLE ONE! I CHALLENGE YOU BIFF TO GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE….
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Biff…..I guess you are not a friend of the Gospel either, the most prolific left wing hippy doctrine ever written among man. If God doesn’t know what he is doing then we are all screwed…wink, wink.
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“Biff, This is how white boys fight. (Yes, I know there were other details, but a pillowfight???)”
Linda says,
Then I guess you missed the part where the perpetual and Always the “victim” Darren Wilson wrote:
“In his probable cause statement Wilson ‘advised that the defendant attempted to strike him several times with a closed fist, as well as placed him in a headlock, causing abrasions to his face and chest.”
Funny – you are attempting to downplay the fight and danger with Blumenthal but Darren Wilson, played it up and exaggerated his narrative on the police report.
The same way Darren Wilson exaggerated his narrative concerning Mike Brown but instead of playing that down,
you mimic Darren Wilson like the parroting rat you are, to defend him– interesting.
So you are saying “white boys fight like p’ssies” and between white boys it’s just “good ole boy fun” huh– but it’s “dangerous” when a black guy is involved !?!
and why are fights between white and black guys more real?
white boy answer: “Like Duh, its a black man, OK — I mean, they are like, so from, like- the ghetto, Oh mY Godd!” (Valley girl voice off)
right Dude, it’s narly man, hang 10, bruh!
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Biff ….I would also like to point out that 95% of all poorest U.S. counties are in conservative states…Rightwing policy and idolatry and money worshiping destroys everything except the wealthy, but that is how it is designed.
“Keep it right and keep it white…”….conservative motto.
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Linda…..”white boy answer: “Like Duh, its a black man, OK — I mean, they are like, so from, like- the ghetto, Oh mY Godd!” (Valley girl voice off)
right Dude, it’s narly man, hang 10, bruh!”
……..LMAO.
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Folks, stop arguing with this oxygen thief biff. He is nothing but a mfing racist pos. He loves riling people up.
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^Biff and facts in the same paragraph. ….LOL!
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I should have known abagond had a post on this when I brought it up in the other thread. What a farce.
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Unfortunately, right wingers will happily reward anyone deranged enough to lie openly for their cause. I’m convinced many of them regard lying as a measure of good faith, a sign that someone is sufficiently committed to the cause. It’s a kind of collective guilt. For the Sean Hannities of this world, if one is willing to be totally shameless in defense of privilege, then and only then are they worthy of trust.
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William said:
“I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF HOW LIBERALISM HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ONE SINGLE ONE OF YOUR CLAIMS?
ONCE YOU RESPOND THEN I WILL REPLY WITH THE LONGEST POST EVER POSTED ON CONSERVATISM AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THIS WORLD. ”
Gee, that’s so tempting. I’m not going to waste my time going back and forth with you. (Amazing how Jesus was actually a “left wing hippie”, but theologians didn’t discover it till the late 20th century, and then not without the help of some powerful herbs) Whether you know it or not, you lack the intellectual horsepower to even make that an interesting exercise.
However, anyone who is interested in a novel take on why the left is destructive can google “open letter to open minded progressives” and read what you find. (I tried to post the link, but it got me in the spam filter)
The abovereferenced analysis is too long and complex for you, William. You wouldn’t make it through more than a few paragraphs, and if you did you wouldn’t get it. People like Abagond, Kiwi and jefe might, if they so desired. It would be an interesting read at least if they can appreciate the writer’s literary skills.
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@Everyone…………..Biff has just been schooled.
Biff why don’t you also tell me one single part of the Gospel that would be considered a Conservative concept. Or are you going to COP OUT again?
Your speaking about a novel, one mans OPINION. I am speaking of TANGIBLE PROOF, FACTS, POLICIES THAT HAVE HELPED ALL MEN, sustainable growth and not vulture capitalism. Do you know which society has NOT proven itself against the test of time? CAPITALISM! COLONIALISM! These are all white conservative ideals. So far these policies have almost decimated the entire worlds resources, killed off complete cultures of people, murdered more people than any group or concept, eliminated hundreds of thousands of species of animals/plants and ONLY because of LIBERAL conservationist and political fighting tooth and nail is there even an outside chance we may have some resources for our grandchildren.
Do you know which societies have bested the test of time; African culture pre-colonialism, Native tribes the world abound, Chinese and Japanese culture minus the pollution making, money worshiping capitalist. The American Indian and the Northern Eskimos lived the same sustained lifestyles for thousands of years, America and Capitalism is the baby on the block and it is not looking promising, mainly because it is based on consumption and Darwinism, these two things have a finite lifespan…deal with it!
I win again….but it’s easy for me, I have morality on my side.
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@danielwalldamnit….Unfortunately, right wingers will happily reward anyone deranged enough to lie openly for their cause. I’m convinced many of them regard lying as a measure of good faith, a sign that someone is sufficiently committed to the cause. It’s a kind of collective guilt. For the Sean Hannities of this world, if one is willing to be totally shameless in defense of privilege, then and only then are they worthy of trust.
Good point…thanks.
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