Lawrence Otis Graham on November 6th 2014 confessed to the Washington Post, and therefore to the nation, that, “I taught my black kids that their elite upbringing would protect them from discrimination. I was wrong.”
He is a New York lawyer with degrees from top universities – Princeton and Harvard Law. He works for a top law firm and lives on the Upper East Side, a rich, White part of Manhattan.
He and his wife taught their children the ways of upper-class White folks, dressed them in preppy clothes, gave them perfect diction and “that air of quiet graciousness”.
He gave them rules like:
4. Never leave a shop without a receipt, no matter how small the purchase, so that you can’t be accused unfairly of theft.
5. If going separate ways after a get-together with friends and you are using taxis, ask your white friend to hail your cab first, so that you will not be left stranded without transportation.
8. If you must wear a T-shirt to an outdoor play event or on a public street, it should have the name of a respected and recognizable school emblazoned on its front.
No hoodies. And no sunglasses, ever!
And yet, somehow, his 15-year-old son was still called the N-word by Whites! In broad daylight! At a leafy New England boarding school! The White gentlemen were not even drunk. His son had done nothing wrong. Nothing!
This is a perfect example of what I said in the post on respectability politics:
No matter how many degrees you have, no matter how nicely you dress, no matter how “articulate” you are, Whites will still see you as a “nigger”
It is not like Graham was racially sheltered as a boy. Far from it. In 1967 his family moved to a White neighbourhood. It was so White that they became known as “that black family that moved onto Soundview.”
In 1968 his nine-year-old brother was pulling him along in his new red-and-white Radio Flyer wagon in front of their house. Suddenly they hear sirens and a police car pulls up. The police thought they had stolen the wagon.
From that he should have gathered, at some point during the following 46 years, that racism has little to do with anything that Black people are doing wrong, that White ideas about Blacks are not grounded in fact or reason, that White racism is irrational.
Instead he concluded that apparent racism is a simple misunderstanding, that if his children did everything right – wore the right (White) clothes, spoke the right (White) English, followed particular rules, etc – that they would be protected from White racism.
But that is itself White racism: the idea that there is nothing wrong with White people but there is something wrong with Black people. It makes Black humanity conditional on good behaviour and White approval.
By growing up with White people, Graham did not grow to understand them – instead, ever the good student, he grew to believe their lies, to understand them the way they understood themselves.
Thanks to Satanforce and Sondis for suggesting this post.
See also:
They caused way more damage than good. I can see them with their white spouse passing on this bullshit on to their mulatto children. I can’t believe a grown Black man would be this silly.
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My parents, being Nigerian, learned the same lesson themselves.I know a lot of African immigrants(Nigerian, Ghanaian, Liberian, Congolese etc) who come over here with a set idea of who Black Americans are solely based of what America sends overseas in the media and its a pretty disturbing picture. Despite the fact my parents saw themselves as “not like those blacks” , as this man probably did, my father had to transfer to an HBCU because of the abuse he received at a local PWI and then talked my mother into not attending said PWI.
I wanted to go to the school and he would have let me if I had not changed my mind a picked an HBCU instead but he was still pretty wary about it. Even if you’re in a Benz, you’re still a ni**a in a coupe.
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Sometimes the only way a black person can accept the truth is when a racist knocks them thru a plate glass window.
Indeed, I was thrown through several myself.
Black people can be very hard headed; as if our heads are made of kevlar; I know cause I used to be one of them.
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@ Abagond
I don’t think Mr Graham is naive. He’s written two (or more) books that illustrate he is aware of racism. In the book, “Member of the Club” he poised as an uneducated waiter to do an undercover expose of elite white racism. Great book.
In “Our Kind of People,” he wrote that the elite blacks did not want to be with whites or marry whites, they wanted to stand for high achievement among black people.
Of course, after integration ALL black people became more confused as to what was beneficial for us and what was not. Poor and working class blacks also fall prey to white-identification as much as those with money. We are all brainwashed to some degree.
Yes, elite blacks were imitated upper class white society to a degree but that’s understandable because who else would they imitate? People imitate the culture they live in. But they were not integrationists. In fact, they encouraged their children to marry other black people of their “group.” As you can see, Mr. Graham married a black female. Had he been this grossly white identified black male, he would have married a white female.
And they had a legitimate point that it is better to associate and marry “one’s own kind of people” in that there are multiple problems when you don’t.
For example, a black child who has been taught to use good grammar and to spend a lot of time reading and doing schoolwork and being focused on getting top grades is going to have a problem with a child who hasn’t been raised that way. They are going to be ridiculed and bullied and accused of “acting white.” And the same is true of adults who often view more educated blacks with suspicion and barely disguised envy.
Of course, no amount of education or money or manners will insulate a black person from racism and I’m certain Mr. Graham is more aware of that than anyone reading this post. Even knowing that doesn’t mean black people should not make the effort to be educated, or affluent or well-mannered or speak grammatically correct English.
I feel low expectations among some black people are a bigger problem than blacks who “over achieve.” The problem for both groups is white supremacy not black elites. I would strongly recommend both books I mentioned above. They are excellent and enlightening reads. Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion.
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This is why I’m against integration. I don’t believe it should be forced, but if living next to white folks requires that many rules, why do it?
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@Trojan Pam: Salient points good to read you again. This post should be in tandem with the respectability politics post thread.
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“And no sunglasses, ever!”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This one “rings” with me… especially when the train stops near Lincoln Center or Radio City Music Hall and all these cultured white people enter the train car….
This makes me really appreciate the power of Black men to alter public (white) spaces – especially one wearing sunglasses. : -)
It’s kind of how cockroaches react when the light is turned on. They flee from the light source is how most whites react to strange unfamiliar black men – if or when they can.
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@ Mary
Good to hear from you, also. I remember being in school, about 8th grade, and being afraid to do too good in school for fear of being attacked by bullies, I was (and still am) a girl so I can only imagine what it is like for black boys who are more likely to experience more severe violence if they act “too white” by being smart (?)
I think you would really enjoy “Member of the Club” which is available at the library. Mr. Graham is a very smart black male with a lot to say that is worth hearing
@ The Pramatist
I agree that integration was the worst thing that could have happened to the black mind and has done more to destroy black self-respect and self-reliance
but the reality is (in my opinion) is there is no where black people can go on the planet without following the “rules” of white supremacy, be it america or Africa or the Caribbean.
We all follow the rules, regardless of where we live. We have to work, we have to get licenses, we have to obey laws both just and unjust and we have to eat and buy TV and phones and electricity and housing and clothing, etc. Everything I get i am forced to get from white people because black independence will not be tolerated and any attempt to establish it will be destroyed. Just ask the Africans in Libya or Africa or the blacks who created “Black Wall Street”
I am always concerned when black people believe they are t forced to follow the rules written by whites. I think we would be best served by facing our reality THEN coming up with a strategy to deal with it.
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@Trojan Pam: I think i would like to read this book. At first when i saw this post on Ebony Magazine a couple of weeks ago i kind of thought this dude was just being naive and i just didn’t know what to think. My first thought was ask the POTUS and FLOTUS about how that’s working for them. But i am glad for this post. What about the people like Charles Barkley and Bill Cosby who have this elitist mindset to throw other poor black people under the bus because they have bought into the white supremacist mindset who don’t measure up to their so called acceptable standards?
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I just submitted a chapter in a novel I’m working on that’s based on my early experiences back in the 70’s in Chicago, as a teenage girl crossing the color line with a Black boyfriend. The chapter was filled with nasty, racist things these hippy dippy student radical, ultra liberal white people were traumatizing her with. The chapter was out of sequence, from the middle of the book, yet every one of the critiquers, including the teacher, complained that I hadn’t explained what she saw in him. They were breaking up. It would have been completely out of place to have that there. But I could see what was going on. I’ve been seeing it for a lifetime. Classic knee jerk response, “Why HIM?” That’s what’s popping. But the worst response came from the Japanese gay guy who’s getting rave responses from everybody for his story about the persecution his gay, Japanese character is going through. He was basically agreeing with the nasty little bitch in the story who slams the MC with the below-the-belt BBC punch. He was agreeing with her. Of course!
So I was thinking, I made a big mistake taking anything out of sequence. I have to spoon feed them chapter by chapter as I lay out why he is manifestly someone she’d relate to, the way I was in the other crit group I’m in. Which at this point is three white guys, who have, I must admit, been really understanding what I’ve been saying, building up this characterization. But then I give them the chapters where there’s the crush on a black boy in high school, then a few years later there’s the boyfriend in college who’s Black and they’re tripping. I’ve hit them with the big SM. Serial Miscegenation. All three got some licks in. And they can’t see it.
This country is SO racist. People are so steeped in it. They absolutely abhor being accused of racism. When they do it they always have an excuse. They always find a way to dismiss it or shift the blame backwards. And it really doesn’t matter what I say. It won’t be heard.
Not in this country.
I didn’t know I was Serb, I didn’t know what has been happening to us for over a half a millenium, but everyone I knew in my adult life has had reference to the same experience, they’ve been Black, or Jewish or Indian. And everything I’ve loved about them, everything that was so interesting and so important and why I was so proud of them, were all the ways we are the same. I’ve been loving us all my life.
But I don’t have a right to that. Not in this country. They might hear me for half a minute, and then they’ll revert back to their conditioning and start seeing their nasty mess.
I’m invisible.
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Linda, are you Serbian?
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Thank you Trojan Pam!
If any Black person in the United States believed that they were going to live in a perfect world, they were mentally incompetent!
What makes anyone believe that such a possibility exist or could ever exist! Because someone called someone a bad-bad-bad “N” word does not mean that the entire world is prejudiced against Blacks!
I have worked my entire adult life attempting to prove that when given a chance a Black person can do an equal or even superior job to his peers! There seems to be new believes that no one has to prove that they are capable, just assume that they are able to perform any task which they are asked to do!
Perhaps Blacks should study the tribes in Nigeria: Hausa, Igbo (Ibo), Fulani and Yoruba! They may find a few differences which cannot be traced to racism! Actually Blacks should be required to study the ethnic problems that exist in Sub Sahara Africa before they start complaining!
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That’s what you get when you mix tribalism with commoditization of the human body – the other becomes a commodity that can be used and thrown away without recourse, without anyone in polite society lifting a finger against it.
It’s no surprise that slavery is this country’s original sin. Chances are it’ll never be resolved, not even if the country is pushed to the brink of its own demise.
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“No hoodies, No sunglasses ever” Wow i guess that’s considered the uniform of a “thug” but if some white kid wears the same outfit it’s just a youngster who went shopping at Urban Outfitters or Abercrombie and Fitch.
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Well at least he does admit he was wrong.
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“Linda, are you Serbian?”
Da, ja sam Srpkinja. I was baptized on my 62nd birthday. And when I tell them that paragraph “I didn’t know I was Serb . . .” they say “You’re so brave!” Nobody in America has ever used that ‘B’ word on me. But the third one I told got really quiet and told me that when she first got here 12 years ago she went to college and she chose a Black college because those were the Americans who were most familiar to her. She inspired the Nikola character in my story.
So no, I’m not always invisible. I’ll get to feeling that way, but I know where to go now.
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@Abagond…Thanx for this post. I know when I read his piece in the Post, like you, I immediately thought about his reliance on “respectability politics” as the basis for writing it.
And I also agree with what you said above, “No matter how many degrees you have, no matter how nicely you dress, no matter how “articulate” you are, Whites will still see you as a “nigger.” — but I do so with the qualifiers, “many” and “in general” before and after the word “whites,” because next Friday, I will be celebrating my 34th wedding anniversary to a society-identified, white guy (he’s Italian-American, but “became white” — as ancestor, James Baldwin put it — after his family immigrated here long ago).
And no, it’s not been easy. I’ve heard of the word “mullion” being thrown around by his father about me to him, (but never to my face) in the early years. But once he met the children, things slowly started to shift. And when my father-in-law died last October, my youngest son read the eulogy (all the grandchildren got together and each wrote about their memories of him and then compiled it all into one eulogy) at the funeral.
Of one thing I am certain — because I know who I am, my sons have grown up to “to understand them the way they understood themselves.”
Thanx again, Abagond. You’ve been such a constant in my journey of de-colonizing my mind!
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@ Mary
who asked, “What about the people like Charles Barkley and Bill Cosby who have this elitist mindset to throw other poor black people under the bus because they have bought into the white supremacist mindset who don’t measure up to their so called acceptable standards?”
——–
Neither Charles nor Bill would fall into the category of “educated black elites.” And that is the point I’m making that all kinds of blacks from all walks of life regularly throw other black people under the bus. We do it even when we don’t get paid (like Cosby and Barkley) to do it. We do it when we’re poor. We do it when we’re rich.
But just because someone is successful doesn’t mean they are anti-black.
I could be incorrect but I have never once read anything by Mr. Graham saying anything ugly about black people. Just to be clear, I’m not condoning black people of any class looking down on other black people, my point was that many times very successful, very educated blacks are assumed guilty of being elitist even without evidence.
I am in no way defending whites or white racism and have said many times on this blog as I did in an earlier post that the problem is not elite blacks (as annoying as some may be) or poor blacks or working class blacks or rich blacks.
The problem is white supremacy and the psychological chains and dysfunction that it produces in its victims.
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@ Allen Shaw
I don’t think black people expect to live in a perfect world. What we want is to be treated as human beings and that is impossible under the system of white supremacy.
I understand why black people feel we must “prove” ourselves to white people but it has been my experience that it is largely a waste of time when an entire system has been designed to disprove what you are trying to prove.
I have watched countless black people jump thru all kinds of hoops trying to prove they are competent, or nice or well-mannered or educated or simply just human and I have watched most stumble and fall in their attempts.
Because it doesn’t benefit white people collectively to allow blacks to “prove” anything because that means whites will have to own up to being wrong and will have to give up the privileges and extra goodies they receive just by being white? As a white person why would I ever agree to something that would take those privileges away? Like allowing a black person to “prove” they are as deserving of those privileges as I am?
I think we could all learn something from black people in other parts of the world, but frankly, they don’t seem to be doing much better than blacks in America in getting that white foot off their necks. In fact, African people are catching hell as I right this and all of this is due to EUROPEAN COLONIZATION and IMPERIALISM and WHITE SUPREMACY.
Of course, the VICTIMS of injustice have the right to protest their mistreatment. If you were being mistreated, Allen, would you remain silent? I doubt it.
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@PL,
It sounds like your parents came when they were young (ie before university) and it also sounds like they learned some things before you came along, so they could begin to help you a bit when you hit your teenage years.
I have always wondered how “brain drain” African immigrants and their children relate to modern black disensfranchisement and respectability politics, not to mention the legacy of Jim Crow and chattel slavery.
I was wondering if it was anything like how brain drain post-1965 Asian immigrants and their children relate to all the legacy of the stuff that happened to Asian Americans between 1850 – 1968. It seems like they don’t relate much at all. For most, the pre-1968 experience is a big black hole, or at least irrelevant to them. But part of the explanation was that they came over in such large numbers so that they ended up validating a new narrative that was written for them (ie, the Model Minority). The old narrative has been erased for them.
So, I was wondering, if African and African- descendant post 1965 immigrants could ever become so numerous that they could rewrite the African- American narrative similar to how the Asian American one has been rewritten.
The example above seems to show that upper middle class blacks, as long as they are not too large in number, cannot.
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@ Trojan Pam (Pt.1)…Greetings, my Sister. I’ve “heard” your voice here, as well as other places I’ve visited since I started blogging some time ago.
I know this sounds a bit schizophrenic given my previous comment, but I actually agree with you that, “integration was the worst thing that could have happened to the black mind and has done more to destroy black self-respect and self-reliance.”
When I got married 34 years ago, I definitely WAS an integrationist and a rarely outspoken one at that! Aside from youth and my Black, Southern Baptist upbringing, there are also the factors of sexism and patriarchy in my growing up to which I attribute that condition. However, all those years since, I’m still breathing — and every day I’m breathing, I have the opportunity to learn and grow, which is how I became this 58 year-old me, standing in who I am while I continue the work of decolonizing my mind (more than 400 years takes quite some time to undo!).
Thanks for the book references (I’m an addictive reader!), I’ll check them out. But I’m confused. If Mr. Graham was so in tune with both elite white racism and Black elitism, why now, did he write this Washington Post piece?
You said, “In Our Kind of People,” he wrote that the elite blacks did not want to be with whites or marry whites, they wanted to stand for high achievement among black people.”
We were by no means “elite,” but my mother worked two jobs and my father one at the Shipyard, so that we could go to a good, at that time totally-segregated except for the two Jesuit priests, private, Catholic school. But I so totally get that sentiment, since that’s how I was raised. Shortly after I was married, I remember my husband, my mother and I going out to my grandmother’s house on the island from “the city.” She asked me to ask my husband to cut her grass (she never once looked him in the face or asked him to do anything for her from that day when they first met, until she died in 2000). He and I were in her yard trying to get her lawnmower to work. I came in through the back door, headed toward the front porch where she was sitting with my mother and another of her daughters who lived on the island too, to ask her if she had any oil for the mower. But they didn’t hear me come in. I heard her say, “I don’ know why Debbie married that white man (though he’s Italian-American, he’s quite white-looking)! The first time he calls her nigger, she’ll know!”
It was jarring to hear, but familiar. Like his family, nobody in mine had ever said anything to his face (or mine for that matter!). So no, the sentiment wasn’t only reserved for Black “elites.”
I agree with you when you say, “Of course, after integration ALL black people became more confused as to what was beneficial for us and what was not. Poor and working class blacks also fall prey to white-identification as much as those with money. We are all brainwashed to some degree.”
That’s what sending us to Catholic school was all about! My mother felt we’d get a better education ( read inculcation) and have better opportunities (never mind the nuns, who were themselves Black from the Oblate Sisters of Providence in Baltimore never, EVER taught us jack about Black folk!). During her day job, my mother worked in food service for white folk on the Navy Base. Everything she learned there, she brought home and taught to us — from the proper way to set a table, to which forks and spoons were for what and from which side you should be served whenever we got into that situation (and she was sure we would one day — she was right!). She wanted to make sure we wouldn’t embarrass ourselves, or her, in the not knowing. I hated those “lessons” then, but I grew grateful for them during my period of “integrationism” — particularly when I became a commissioned officer in the Navy (I already knew what they were teaching at “knife & fork” school!).
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@Trojan Pam (Pt. 2)…You said, “Yes, elite blacks were imitated upper class white society to a degree but that’s understandable because who else would they imitate? People imitate the culture they live in.”
Now here’s where we part ways my Sister — “…who else would they imitate???” Admittedly, not until my post-integrationist journey, did I realize just how mighty the shoulders were upon which I stand. I WOULD, and DO imitate them. Despite her afore-mentioned words, I get and admire my grandmother’s strength, commitment and conviction in feeding clothing and educating all of her 15 children (yes, 15 — and most of them girls!), particularly after my grandfather left and started yet another family. She hoed, planted, harvested, jarred and sold enough vegetables (to include peanuts and sweet potatoes, my favorites!) on her land every year to make sure they ALL always had enough to eat wherever they were; she shrimped, fished, picked crabs and shucked oysters, freezing all of it until we came to get ours (trust me, I came home for mine with my “hot ice” every year she was alive!); she slaughtered hogs, gathered eggs from her hens and wrung chicken and turkey necks to prepare a feast fit for a king EVERY Thanksgiving and Christmas – and how she put her kids and eventually her grandkids to work doing the same until they moved on for greater opportunities (because I “picked too slow,” in the fields, my job was to work the stand every summer until about the seventh grade, getting up at 6am to wash it down, set it up and then selling the vegetables to white folk on their way to the beach all day. Though it prepared me for the military life, I’m definitely convinced that has PLENTY to do with why now that I don’t have to get up, I refuse to rise before noon to this day — even if I’m awake before then!).
I get and admire how my mother learned ALL those things from her and then some. How she worked two jobs for most of my growing up and after my father left, to start yet another family (yes, there is a pattern there, one I vowed not to repeat. So far, I’ve been successful, but I’ve come close!), she kept at it until she’d sent all three of us to college. Though I hated all those lessons, I appreciated her knowing, that during that time especially, we needed to know them.
Trust me, she was undoubtedly a taskmaster who took no sh*t! But she also made room for our tasting a life we’d theretofore not experienced. She was the driving force behind our family buying our first home in our “movin’ on up neighborhood,” the second Black family on a block full of whites who promptly fled because two nigger families were more than they cared to bear; using her day job to get passes to Navy lodges for weekend getaways, throwing coming of age parties (my 15th birthday at the beach for the weekend with friends was the most talked about in school for weeks! Everybody thought we had money — we were just scraping by like everybody else); taking us and our friends to the pools on the base because there was only one in town to which Black folk could go; using her night job to help pay bills and take us to Perkins Pancake House every Sunday after church, so we could use those “proper” skills she’d taught us and feel special while we did; putting our asses to work when we were old enough, so we could learn the real value of a dollar earned and spent. I remember seeing a beautiful red and white polka dotted, gown on the cover of Seventeen magazine (is that still in print?) that I showed her. I told her I’d sure like to have it for my junior-senior prom. She said yes it was beautiful, but it was too expensive — even if I paid half from my T.G. & Y. job. A couple weeks before the prom, after my friends and I’d hooked up some homemade gowns (because she could sew anything, at her insistence, I’d taken HomEc — do they still teach that anymore??), she surprised me with it. Man, I felt special! I graduated high school in 1974. I kept that damned gown for 12 years, cut off the straps to make a nice, flowing strapless and wore it to the Navy Day Ball in 1986 where fellow Russian linguist, Montel Williams sang as a part of the entertainment!
So my Sister – it is, in fact THEM, not white folk in general, that I would imitate.
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@Abagond…Please accept my apologies for taking up so much space. I so feel the need to share another point of view with my sister, TrojanPam and I realize I’m quite full. Please bear with me, I’m just about done.
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It’s impossible to protect people from it. It reminds me of that BAP stuff. The black elite is a joke. They’re just adopting “white” traditions versus creating their own. But, at the same time it annoys me when people label things black or white. My issue is with people educating and conducting themselves in a way that they feel will make them less black. You can’t be less black. That’s where that guy got it wrong – having a receipt isn’t going to stop you being black.
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@Kiwi
But how are the resources in poor black communities going to get any better if people leave these communities as they become richer?
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@Kiwi
Also i think we should explicitly list out these resources and discuss whether they are absolutely necessary and unobtainable from a “blacker” area.
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You guys have a really, really, really, really weird society. And it’s driving some of you nuts.
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The way the 15 year old is dressed makes me cringe something awful–Jesus!
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@TrojanPam (Pt. 3)… ”But they were not integrationists. In fact, they encouraged their children to marry other black people of their “group.” As you can see, Mr. Graham married a black female. Had he been this grossly white identified black male, he would have married a white female.”
A question, Sister – Can you explain why marrying “white” = “grossly white-identified?” I’ve read and heard that description from other Black folk on the Internet and in life and quite frankly, I don’t get it. Without even knowing us, or how we think or live, why is that the default for those of us who marry out of our “group?” Are we automatically less Black?
While I agree, it’s EASIER “to associate and marry “one’s own kind of people,” I don’t agree “they had a legitimate point” necessarily, because while there are additional problems when you don’t — they’re not multiply more, based on my experiences. Marriage is WORK, no matter to whom you’re wed.
Your example of a Black child, “who has been taught to use good grammar and to spend a lot of time reading and doing schoolwork and being focused on getting top grades, is going to have a problem with a child who hasn’t been raised that way. They are going to be ridiculed and bullied and accused of “acting white.” And the same is true of adults who often view more educated blacks with suspicion and barely disguised envy” seems an echo of those “respectability politics” we need to keep fighting to avoid. How about instead of automatically regurgitating the narrative passed down to us from them, changing OURnarrative to, “The Black child, who has been taught to use good grammar and to spend a lot of time reading and doing schoolwork and being focused on getting top grades, is going to share what they know with a child who hasn’t been raised that way AND will LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM AS WELL?
IMHO, in order for us to survive as a people, we must meet each other where we find us and throw out their narratives in favor of our own. I firmly believe in “each one, teach one” and not in a one-way street kind of way.
”I feel low expectations among some black people are a bigger problem than blacks who “over achieve.” The problem for both groups is white supremacy not black elites.”
I just disagree, my Sister. As long as we continue to “over achieve” based on the white gaze, we’ll continue to spin our wheels. You’re right, the problem for both groups is white supremacy, BUT, Black elitism is a writhing, pulsing part of that as well. There is an intersectionality of power which bell hooks so aptly defines in the following clip which allows the “collusion of Black people with the forces of racism”: http://youtu.be/OQ-XVTzBMvQ?t=4m37s (I tried to extract the section where she’s talking about what I mean, but if I failed, WARNING: ENTIRE VIDEO IS DEFINITELY FOR GROWN FOLK!). She rightly terms that collusion (which includes Black, Latino/Hispanic, Asian elites, etc. like Mr. Graham who worked hard for that inclusion) as “White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy.”
We people of color have SO much work to do, Sister. Let’s leave their “miseducation” by the wayside and start working on our own education for once. Seems to me, that’s the only way we’ll ever really be free.
Peace…
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Self hatred is the root of his rational. Tried so hard to be white only to find out he can never be that.
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@Allen Shaw said…
“Perhaps Blacks should study the tribes in Nigeria: Hausa, Igbo (Ibo), Fulani and Yoruba! They may find a few differences which cannot be traced to racism! Actually Blacks should be required to study the ethnic problems that exist in Sub Sahara Africa before they start complaining!”
Allen, perhaps you should also study ethnic problems in Eastern Europe, Asia and the Middle East before you start making generalizations.
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Just heard a segment on this from Michelle Norris on NPR. She is doing something called The Race Card project.
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“Perhaps Blacks should study the tribes in Nigeria: Hausa, Igbo (Ibo), Fulani and Yoruba! They may find a few differences which cannot be traced to racism! Actually Blacks should be required to study the ethnic problems that exist in Sub Sahara Africa before they start complaining!”
“Allen, perhaps you should also study ethnic problems in Eastern Europe, Asia and the Middle East before you start making generalizations.”
And any time you see those behaviors surfacing have an eye out for someone behind the scene, stirring the pot, In Eastern Europe, for example, people had made incredible strides at living in harmony, till the West won the Cold War and absolute power began corrupting absolutely. And sometimes it’s the ghosts of those pot stirrers, still keeping the dissension alive.
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@Trojan Pam
I am late to the party but very nice to see you commenting. I would particularly like to say I agree with this statement in full:
“Even knowing that doesn’t mean black people should not make the effort to be educated, or affluent or well-mannered or speak grammatically correct English.”
Though I would like to point out that where I live I have seen little people not try to practice the best manners that they were raised with. Often times what they wear give people an impression of them that is not alwys true to how they are.
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Deb
IT is equally as nice to see you comment again.
“Can you explain why marrying “white” = “grossly white-identified?”—I would love to know the answer to this as well. A young black male told me a month ago that I could not talk about or engage in black issues because I did not marry black and that I likely conform to “white” norms. Yet this same young male was quick to support some white norms and was an advocate of dating white women. I have nothing against loving who you love but the double standard took me back a bit.
I have a feeling that having a black mother/white father will likely bring out a black identified child as opposed to white mother black father. Just a thought.
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@Legion
“The way the 15 year old is dressed makes me cringe something awful–Jesus!”—LOL…smh
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Anne
“The Race Card project”—Do you mind providing more detail on this? What exactly is she doing and do you have a link so I may follow?
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I suspect the break up of the United States will be far worse than Yugoslavia due to the fact so many Americans lack a real culture or foundation outside of consumerism.
Imagine being slaughtered because you like Coke instead of Pepsi?
LOL
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Linda Keres Carter
“And sometimes it’s the ghosts of those pot stirrers, still keeping the dissension alive.”—Very true.
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LOL,
I love this..money,class or any of the other can not erode racism if you have black or similar skin,as long as people have prejudices..you always have a risk of being the ‘black’ sheep.
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Kiwi
, I feel people should pursue personal opportunities and improve their own lives first and foremost.
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In addition, hierarchy is an essential part of human nature and will always assert and reveal itself in spite of the best efforts of liberals, communists, feminists, racists and other COLLECTIVISTS to prevent it.
Nature always bats last.
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I think the goal for black parents has to be teaching our children to be resilient in the face of racism. Not that getting education or anything else will prevent you from ever experiencing discrimination, but give them tools to overcome it and any other obstacles and continue to press on.
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Solesearch
I agree.
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“I have a feeling that having a black mother/white father will likely bring out a black identified child as opposed to white mother black father. Just a thought.”
You have to keep in mind the white parent might actually like black people better than the black parent. How all that plays out and what an individual child makes of it is anybody’s guess. It’s probably more important what that child looks like than anything. I have a theory that we form our racial identity when we hit kindergarten, and it’s the other five year olds who are cluing us in. That’s the maturity level we’re at the mercy of.
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“I think the goal for black parents has to be teaching our children to be resilient in the face of racism.”
I think we have been more than resilient. It’s time to end white supremacy/racism and replace it with justice, once and for all.
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sparkle86
“I think the goal for black parents has to be teaching our children to be resilient in the face of racism.”
————————————————————————————————-
Here is a key code analogous translation:
““I think the goal for boxing coaches has to be teaching our boxers to be resilient in the face of constantly getting punched in the face”
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Linda Keres Carter
You have to keep in mind the white parent might actually like black people better than the black parent.
———————————————————————————————-
Like them enough to tell them (without prompting) the intricacies and complexities of the maintenance and refinement of the system of white supremacy?
I think not.
What do you learn from asking nonwhite people with a white parent?
You learn they don’t have any constructive information about racism that you don’t have; indeed, they often have less.
Counterintuitive? Nope.
Ironic? Nope
Racist?
Yes
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@Kiwi
Oh, gee.
The thing is, we can always improve our own lives beyond where we are at any given moment (more money, bigger house, more stuff, more education, easier life). If we should strictly pursue this, that means we will never get around to supporting others.
At some point, helping others also helps ourselves too. It helps society function better.
And if we should focus on improving our own lives and not improve others, that means that we should NOT be paying taxes that will help others for services they might need, eg.
– education
– housing
– transportation (including both roads/rail and transport)
– public security (fire, police, etc.)
– health care
– other public welfare.
We also should not be doing any volunteer work that does not directly help us improve our own lives.
I hope that those people who do get ahead and manage to escape whatever downtrodden state they came from, stop to remember all the people that helped them along the way. Then they can remember that it is their duty to repay that by helping someone else.
This is actually something that I think is better in traditional American culture than some others (eg, Chinese, which focus usually on family more than community or society). However, in America, it seems to be strongest in traditional small town white America. It is not as strong in corporate America, in large metro areas or in non-white communities or in mixed suburbs. As the Pragmatist pointed out, blacks who get ahead leave their old communities and don’t look back. It is like what whites do to their old communities when blacks start moving in.
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@Sharinalr
You said
“I have a feeling that having a black mother/white father will likely bring out a black identified child as opposed to white mother black father. Just a thought.”
Why do you believe that? I have seen biracial people who were very whitewashed. Many wanted nothing to do with black people or black culture. Especially the ones who could almost “pass” for white. It didn’t seem to matter if the mother or father was white. But I live in Cali where everyone wants to claim they are mixed.
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“Like them enough to tell them (without prompting) the intricacies and complexities of the maintenance and refinement of the system of white supremacy?”
Ask my kids. They’ll roll their eyes and say, ‘there she goes again… I won’t get a word in for hours.”
“What do you learn from asking nonwhite people with a white parent?
You learn they don’t have any constructive information about racism that you don’t have; indeed, they often have less.”
I’ve known very radically anti-racist black people with white parents.
Though I was never psychologically white. Most everyone, black or white, expects me to be, and sees me through those filters, which tend to leave me feeling like I’m not even in the room. For us, expecting us to be culturally “white” was the essence of the cultural genocide. And everyone participates in it without a second thought.
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Your question assumes that blacks have an obligation to improve their communities.
@Kiwi
No it does not. It assumes it is in black people’s, as well as their antecedents, best interest to improve black communities. Empowering black communities frees us from integrating into less welcoming communities. Racism becomes less of a problem when we hv the economic power to guard ourselves against it.
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@Trojan Pam
“I understand why black people feel we must “prove” ourselves to white people but it has been my experience that it is largely a waste of time when an entire system has been designed to disprove what you are trying to prove.
I have watched countless black people jump thru all kinds of hoops trying to prove they are competent, or nice or well-mannered or educated or simply just human and I have watched most stumble and fall in their attempts.”
You said a mouthful Pam! I keep trying to tell black people this BUT they just don’t get it! There is nothing to PROVE to white folks. They know they have an un”fair” advantage in a system of white supremacy. And the deck is stacked against black people. Most whites will never admit this fact. That’s why I gave up debating them. They know what the hell is going on! They created the damn system! I’m just waiting for black people to stop worshipping white Gods,embracing white standards of beauty and marrying white folks. Anyway that was a great post sis. I commend you for speaking the truth. Hopefully it will wake up some of these brain dead black people. Counter-racism is a tough. But someone has to do it right?
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Linda Keres Carter
Though I was never psychologically white. Most everyone, black or white, expects me to be, and sees me through those filters, which tend to leave me feeling like I’m not even in the room.
————————————————————————————————
Hey Linda, the more you talk the more you indict yourself as a racist suspect.
Are you trying to force SOMEBODY to ask you the critical question?
because I will do it.
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@ Jefe
As the Pragmatist pointed out, blacks who get ahead leave their old communities and don’t look back.
Helping others isn’t straightforward. To help a drowning man is risky: might he pull you in and kill the both of you? Will he argue with you while he is drowning, about pedestrian issues (does he realize he is drowning)? Does the drowning man think that he knows best, even though he is drowning and his would-be helper has already made it to dry land?
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And what is it that’s making me a suspect?
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Linda Keres Carter
That is true. I can’t say I have not seen a more pro-black white parent and a “want nothing to do with blacks” black parent.
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Kushite Prince
That is based on my interactions with mixed kids with a black mother ( not much interaction vise versa). The otherside to this as Linda pointed out is a white parent who is more “black” than the black parent. I see this a lot in lower class neighborhoods. Usually the white mother is single parenting there kids and chooses (or not) to raise the kids around primarily black people. I have seen very few in the south that can pass.
“It didn’t seem to matter if the mother or father was white. But I live in Cali where everyone wants to claim they are mixed.”—Careful. That mindset most certainly is spreading to the east coast.
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Sparkle86,
“I think we have been more than resilient. It’s time to end white supremacy/racism and replace it with justice, once and for all.”
How do we end racism once and for all? Thats’s the goal but to achieve that you have to be resilient.
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Thwack,
“Here is a key code analogous translation:
““I think the goal for boxing coaches has to be teaching our boxers to be resilient in the face of constantly getting punched in the face””
Punches can be dodged and blocked. Racism can’t. Isn’t that what this post is about.
A boxer can step out of the ring. Black people can’t step away from racism.
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The saddest thing Ive seen on youtube is all the female boxers who are thrown into the ring with no defensive skills training; just two women repeatedly punching each other in the head…
In contrast, all male boxers are give at least some training in blocking, dodging, ducking, dancing, counter punching…
Floyd Mayweather could be knocked out if somebody could just hit him with a solid punch.
But nobody can connect because of his defensive skills. He has the title, the belt, all the money, talks major trash,
and he’s still pretty as a girl.
Am I saying you can dodge white supremacists?
No.
Im saying when you practice perfect counter racism, you won’t need to.
Do you know why?
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@Kiwi
-I’ve lived in middle class black neighborhoods also. They were relatively peaceful with low incidences of crime. However, i am not speaking about the (lower) middle class. From what i can tell Mr. Graham is solidly upper class.
-Also, are you speaking of lower MC or upper MC communities in regards to resources? There is a difference
-You still haven’t answered my question. How are poorer black communities supposed to grow as people leave with economic ascension?
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Linda Keres Carter
I have a theory that we form our racial identity when we hit kindergarten, and it’s the other five year olds who are cluing us in. That’s the maturity level we’re at the mercy of.
——————————————————————————————–
Your theory is “childs play”; where do you think the 5 year olds got their identity from?
Way to go blaming children for the evil adults do; anything else we should blame them for?
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Obviously they get their reactions from their parents/environment. I’ve seen that you are very argumentative with others, so I think I’ll just leave this alone.
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Linda Keres Carter
“Like them enough to tell them (without prompting) the intricacies and complexities of the maintenance and refinement of the system of white supremacy?”
Ask my kids. They’ll roll their eyes and say, ‘there she goes again… I won’t get a word in for hours.”
————————————————————————————————
Blaming the children again are we?
(((shakin my head)))
Can they accept and value the information you provide without suspecting you are one of “them?”
How?
After all, its the entire basis for the value of your information.
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I’ve heard people say that, in so many ways. They figure that at least during segregation, black communities had their own self-sufficient economies and cultures, largely out of sheer necessity. When that necessity went, so did the cohesion of the community at large. Black America adopted an individualist streak with a vengeance in order to prove itself worthy of sharing the same table as their white counterparts. So no, that doesn’t sound schizophrenic at all.
It all boils down to someone stirring up sh*t for wealth or power. For instance, a foreign power playing one ethnic group against the other to keep both distracted from the greater power play, which in this case is wholesale resource extraction on the cheap with all leading parties paid off and placated.
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“It all boils down to someone stirring up sh*t for wealth or power.”
I saw an illustration once of the middle East with dozens of arrows pointing in every which way, indicating who was at odds with who. Someone made a comment on how foolish those people were, and I said, ‘but who’s orchestrating all that?’
What’s really depressing is that you can have plenty of people in the mix on both sides, or all sides, knowing that’s what’s going on, and it will still happen. Those pot stirrers have gotten so good at it. They figured out 30-40 years or so ago if they stop drafting us they can get away with any kind of murder they want, and as long as our amenities are still cheap at Wal-Mart, we won’t worry ourselves at all. America is so hated all over the world, justifiably, there’s no way any of us can sleep safely in our beds, sooner or later those chickens will come home to roost .And for the most part, the country’s oblivious to the real source of its insecurity. Itself.
There was an amusing story I read last month pertaining to the causes of WWI. Austria wanted Salonika. Europe was very dog-eat-dog. If you weren’t constantly invading your neighbors and genociding them into becoming a part of your culture, your neighbor was going to do it to you. So, they were fading and desperate to get a seaport. Serbia was in the way. So somebody high up in the govt. cooked up this scheme framing the Serbs, making them look like these wild terrorists disturbing the peace of Europe. Technology was poor though, in those days. Their ‘evidence’ were letters someone had photographed. We were able to prove that in order for a camera of the times to produce legible writing the letter would have to be written on a poster board. And the Austrian goons hired a Serb to transcribe into Cyrillic a document someone else had written, apparently Polish, whose Serbian was atrocious. The Serb got really well paid for his work, and laughed all the way to the bank. He transcribed it verbatim. When it was read out in court, with pigeon grammar and Polish cliches, the prosecutors were laughingstocks.
But then we all know what happened a few years later when someone did do something violent, shooting the Archduke. And we go down in history as ‘causing’ World War I. And they killed a million of us in retribution.
The pot stirrers have also figured out that if they create the illusion of a color-blind, post-racial society they can further their posturing that they are humanitarians out to protect human rights as they trample on them world-wide. That’s the only thing that’s become more inclusive. They’ve set their sites on more than just people of color. But they’ll likely keep all those pots boiling just to prevent any possibilities of errant alliances.
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Thwack,
What is perfect counter racism?
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@Deb: I really enjoyed your comment post.
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Solesearch
Thwack,
What is perfect counter racism?
—————————————————————————————
Good question.
Let me find some words and get back to you.
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@ Deb
since this isn’t my blog, I’ll try to make my responses short. When I said who else would they imitate AS affluent people but the people who are already affluent?
If I wanted to imitate a gang member I would imitate the people who are ALREADY gang members. But, at the same time, like most black people, they instilled their own flavor of affluence.
Yes, there are black elites who have their heads screwed on wrong, but there are plenty of working class and poor blacks whose heads are in as bad or worse shape.
We are all screwed up due to our massive victimization under the system of white supremacy BUT I can’t help but admire black people who, in spite of the worst segregation and racism of their day STILL managed to become doctors and dentists and lawyers and business people and who tried to instill values in their children that include being well-mannered (not stuck-up), well-read, well-educated, and who aspire to be something in this life.
Some things about the black elite are admirable, other things not so, but this is true of ALL the economic classes of black people.
And speaking of imitating white people, I’d like to know how many people reading this blog
1) will be celebrating Thanksgiving (a celebration of the slaughter of native people)
2) will be celebrating XMAS (when Christ was not born on the 25th)
3) did celebrate the 4th of July (when we’ve never known freedom)
4) call themselves ‘Christians’ and still practice the SAME RELIGION taught to slaves by the white slave-owners.
5) drive luxury cars (in imitation of who?)
6) purchased the latest high-tech toys with the most status (in imitation of who?)
The list could go on and on and on. My point is most of us imitate white people because they are the dominant culture that controls all aspects of our lives and I find it extremely troubling, the level of denial and egotism, frankly, that exists within a people as oppressed as we are. (of course, I’m not saying this about you personally)
YES, I imitate the dominate culture because I know nothing else. That doesn’t mean I want to be white. That means I live under a system of white supremacy that has forced me to ADAPT to my circumstances.
Until we can face the TRUTH– and that is we — black people– are a SUBJUGATED POPULATION whose identity was stripped during the process of 400 years of chattel slavery — a people who do NOT know their origins, their original language, religion, traditions or names
those people have no choice but to IMITATE whatever culture they wind up in.
And we should not be so quick to pretend otherwise OR to condemn other black people for trying to survive within that system UNLESS they are harming other black people.
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@ sharinalr
who said: “Though I would like to point out that where I live I have seen little people not try to practice the best manners that they were raised with. Often times what they wear give people an impression of them that is not alwys true to how they are.”
I have seen the same thing.
All I’m saying is since I have read books by Mr. Graham that I had a different take on him than what I’ve read in this blog. And I would suggest his books to all because they are a fascinating peek inside this world and the man that this world created. Especially since so many have formed an opinion without reading one word that he has written.
Talking about not following “white people’s rules”?? Is it just as difficult to live with the black version of “rules” where to be different is to be judged and condemned without benefit of a trial
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Hmm…this turned out to be a very popular post indeed…. @ : o l ) >
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@ Kushite Prince
I believe the first step in eliminating the system of white supremacy is acknowledging that it exists
the second, is to put all ego and bluster aside and admit that you are subject to it (a prisoner of it)
You have to first admit you’re in a prison to get out of it
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If one is well read, is articulate and educated i don’t consider this as being “white” I just get angry at the ones who look down on the working class poor. And judge them because they lack the tools to better themselves.
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I will take it upon myself to read Mr.Graham’s book.
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Some of us black folks if we are honest to police other people’s blackness. I am guilty of this myself. That’s why i like that new show on ABC “Blackish” it addresses this topic about respectability politics. It’s pretty spot on.
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*do police* ^^^ typo
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@ Deb
It is my opinion that black people who engage in sexual relationships with whites will, by necessity, become more white-identified just by being in that relationship. We ARE WHO WE SLEEP WITH.
And what I have found in my experience is they are often (usually) married to or dating a racist who is NOT being honest about what it means to be a white person and that is a problem.
I will suggest you check out the FREE excerpt of my book, “The Interracial Con Game” on my site – racismws_com under “Bookstore.” The excerpt pretty much sums up my position but here it is in a nutshell:
Any black person who is subjected to racism and wants the system of racism/white supremacy to end cannot in all good conscience justify a relationship with a white person who not only benefits from their mistreatment but who, in fact, is probably a racist who is withholding valuable information about the way whites function within that system.
I have asked countless white people who were in a relationship with a black person OR had a child with a black person if they have ever told that black person or that black child the truth about how white people function when it comes to black people and every single time I have heard nothing but the sound of crickets.
That speaks volumes (to me) that you could claim to “love” someone — a man, woman, or child, but REFUSE to give them potentially life-saving information about how white people function when it comes to black people so that black person could better protect themselves. That’s like watching your child cross the street in traffic with a blindfold on and not rushing out there to stop them and tell them that a car is coming.
A strange definition of “love” or is it simply LOYALTY as white people to the system of white supremacy that has given them so many privileges? It’s just like the blue code of silence. You protect your OWN.
I also believe that is an oxymoron and a gross contradiction for a black person to sleep white at night and preach pro-blackness in the daytime. That is nothing BUT massive confusion and self-delusion and anyone who does not understand that does not understand what it will take to overturn the system of white supremacy.
That is like trying to fight and win a war while consorting with the other side at the same time. You will lose everytime. Yes, war is being waged against black people by the white system/white collective on every level — economic, education, employment, medical, religious, entertainment, politics, the prison industrial complex, the courts, the food, etc.
Of course, you have to the right to be with whoever you please, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
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@Sondis: We have had this discussions before Is Obama A Rented Negro? Exceptional Negros, Respectability Politics. It’s all the same thing. But i read this article in my local newspaper and i saw this on the ebony online thread a couple of weeks ago. In light of the Bill Cosby dustup and Charles Barkley making his ignorant self and Don Lemmon constantly throwing black people under the bus. it is good to still have a discourse on. And last but not least “The New Blacks.”
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*Charles Barkley and his ignorant statements* typos dang. ^^^
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Trojan Pam
I will put his books on my book list and check him out to get an idea of where he is coming from.
“Talking about not following “white people’s rules”?? Is it just as difficult to live with the black version of “rules” where to be different is to be judged and condemned without benefit of a trial”—Conforming is never good regardless of whose rule’s one is trying to conform to.
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Mary Burrell
If one is well read, is articulate and educated i don’t consider this as being “white”
———————————————————————————-
Of course not; everybody knows it means you’re gay.
Or English.
(Cue William F. Buckley)
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Host: “Sir Charles, why won’t you buy your wife a watch for Christmas?”
Charles Barkley: “Cause theres a clock on the stove”
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@ Mary Burrell
If one is well read, is articulate and educated i don’t consider this as being “white” I just get angry at the ones who look down on the working class poor. And judge them because they lack the tools to better themselves.
—
I agree. I also think it is wrong for working class blacks to look down on upper class blacks unless there is a valid reason to do so because you have seen or heard them do something
I find there is an equal amount of judging the other side on both sides.
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@Trojan Pam: I guess that’s fair enough. There’s enough blame to go around for all of us I suppose.
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@ sharinalr
I agree but I’m also a realist who recognizes that I have to conform when I get a job and to keep a job and to keep a roof over my head and food on the table. I can’t just go into a store and decide not to pay the asking price. I have to conform.
We all conform to someone else’s rules and in those instances where we don’t have to conform, we don’t have to but most of us don’t have that luxury very often.
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@ Mary
I am just as guilty as anyone else of pre-judging other black people and I’ll admit one more thing. There is a part of me that is jealous of and curious about a group of black people who were so dogged and so determined to be successful that they passed their tradition of high achievement along to their children who will pass the same to their children and that is a LEGACY
as opposed to each next generation stumbling about and starting over from scratch. Can we really say that is a better way?
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@Trojan Pam: Co sign that. I think it’s good to self reflect and be honest about things we need to work on. That was a good point.
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“A strange definition of “love” or is it simply LOYALTY as white people to the system of white supremacy that has given them so many privileges?”
A white woman married into a black family, or in any kind of publicly acknowledged relationship with a black man, is a woman without status anywhere. The principle privilege of being white is the ability to simply be a person living one’s own life. When she crosses that heavily sanctioned line she becomes a racial object to racist white people (and in this regard they are very uninhibitedly racist). Those ties can become severely strained, if not severed. And she will now be surrounded with people who, in many small ways, will be letting her know that she’s not just a person living her own life, anymore, but a white person living a privileged white person’s life, a privilege she just relinquished. And no one will even notice. Because she’s a person with no status anywhere.
That’s what I had to go through, anyway, in the last 45 years, Why did I bother? To be around the people who were familiar to me, who made sense, who talked about the things I thought about. The kind of people I care about, and exhibit any degree of loyalty toward. It’s what I call Serb-seeking behavior (my family was culturally genocided and were told we were the people who were sadistically exterminating the rest of the family). It’s hard wired. There’s absolutely nothing conditional about it. It doesn’t matter at all if anyone ever reciprocated anything I gave. It only matters that I gave. And I was rewarded. When I sat down to write about those experiences I discovered who I really was.
And now when I tell my long-lost, newly found Serbs what I did, they think I rock. They talk about me behind my back and then when they see me they give me a sloppy kiss on the cheek. People I don’t even know. Do you have any idea what it feels like, after all these years, to be gossiped about, and what they’re saying is how much they love and admire me?
We’ve been at this shit an incredibly long time. It brewed a lot slower for us and support structures had a chance to develop that are really fascinating. And there’s that hard wiring. Not a damn thing I can do about it. Not a damn thing I want to do about it. It’s a privilege. A superb privilege.
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Regarding Kiwi’s and Pragmatist’s discussion about about MC black communities. I think the best case in point we should look at is the State of Maryland, because
– It is poised to become the next minority-majority state (currently 53-54% non-hispanic white, 30% black), probably by 2020
– it will be the first state one where blacks outnumber Asians and Hispanics combined, and together, they will outnumber non-hispanic whites. In the other minority-minority states, the largest non-white group is Asians or Hispanics.
– It is the wealthiest state in the nation.
– it has the wealthiest majority African-American county in the nation (Prince George’s) and an even wealthier county with an African-American plurality (Charles), both suburbs of DC. There are also well-to-do middle class black neighborhoods outside Baltimore in Baltimore county. These areas are wealthier than most white middle class suburbs across the country.
– these wealthy black neighborhoods are literally a stone’s throw from some of the worst “non-performing” poor black neighborhoods in the country, esp. in Baltimore and in Anacostia in DC.
– Most blacks are descendant of blacks who came during the Great Migration, but many are not. Blacks can be found in large numbers in central urban areas, in the suburbs in rural areas. Many rural areas of southern Maryland and Eastern Shore are majority black, and date back to pre-civil war slave plantations.
– It has plenty of brain drain Asians – the overwhelming majority of Asians in this state are from brain drain families, although there are families who came as refugees. It also has plenty of brain drain African immigrant families, many of whom moved into neighborhoods that attracted brain drain Asians. Many are drawn to Montgomery and Howard Counties.
– the most diverse Hispanic population of any state in the USA
IF we want to examine the interplay between poor and upper middle class black neighborhoods in close proximity to each other, no better place would exist in the country.
But even here, the wealthy black neighborhoods –
– have worse educational performance than poorer white neighborhoods. Prince George’s County does not really perform better than Baltimore city.
– have higher police brutality – Actually PG county in the 1990s was among the worst in the country, trailing only LA and NY. At that time, it was in a stage of transition similar to Ferguson.
– do not attract the brain drain African immigrants, who often go to the same neighborhoods as the brain drain Asians
– do not really have that high level of entrepreneurship. Most upper middle class blacks are professionals or have managerial positions in the government.
And poorer black neighborhoods do not see many middle / upper middle class blacks coming back to invest there. In fact, it looks like at least half the businesses in those neighborhoods are run by (non-brain drain) Asians, who themselves usually do not live in the neighborhoods where they operate businesses and feel less obligation to invest in the community. The few black entrepreneurs that exist tend to operate in middle class black neighborhoods, not poorer ones. It looks like Asians are better equipped to exploit economic opportunities in poor black neighborhoods rather than blacks.
Whites will still find ways to prevent or limit access to services, (eg, health care, transportation and education) to blacks, regardless of the wealth level of the blacks.
It seems like there is a barrier for middle class and wealthier blacks to invest in poorer black neighborhoods, but a barrier that is not as strong for Asians. I think it has to with access to credit and the attitudes that poor blacks and wealthy blacks have towards each other. Maybe some of the explanation could derive from this very post.
I have been curious about this for a long time and I would like to know if anyone has deeply studied these phenomena.
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@Jefe: What i know to be true in your post where you wrote the non brain-drain Asians operate businesses in the poor black neighborhoods and they profit from the poor blacks and get rich and don’t invest in that poor black neighborhood and live somewhere else. The brain-drain Africans do the same as the brain drain Africans. There is much truth to your post. Yes I have made this observation. That’s how i know what the old saying”Location,Location” The middle class blacks and immigrants of Asian and African descent don’t invest in poor black neighborhoods it’s too much of a risk. If it’s not making money and making sense they really can’t take this risk. Sadly and Unfortunately.
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^^^ The brain-drain Africans do the same as the brain-drain Asians^^^^ typos
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@ Jefe: It’s late and i need to go to bed but yes, your post was the truth.
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This family is blinded by the false America Dream Propaganda from the media world. Money and college degree from a high class college wouldn’t protect them from the harsh reality of racism system.
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@MB,
But some immigrant Asians (usu. the non- brain drain variety without education in the USA) DO take a risk and operate businesses in poor black neighborhoods. Their kids, once they get a US education, usually do not stay.
We have already witnessed this phenomenon for the past 130 years.
What is worthy of consideration is that there are considerably more middle class blacks than non- brain drain Asians, but we don’t see them opening up many businesses in poor black neighborhoods. Looks like they abandon them as soon as they move out.
What we need to do is analyze why this happens and if anything should be fixed.
My rambling thoughts:
– Once blacks can afford to patronize businesses outside of poor black neighborhoods, they do. They even prefer white businesses to black ones.
– upper middle class blacks are reliant on credit, insurance, security, distribution networks, etc. from the white community; Asians can tap outside of the white community to gain access to these services and networks. Blacks have not accessed those Asian networks and do not have enough black networks to tap into.
– Low levels of black entrepreneurship means less opportunity to transfer those skills to other blacks.
– There is some mistrust between middle class and poorer blacks, as there is between Asians and poorer blacks. But poorer blacks do not resent the Asians quite as much as they do wealthier blacks and they do not have expectations from the Asians (eg, from extending credit to investing back into the community).
The answer, perhaps, would be for wealthier blacks to form service networks within the black community. But it seems like, when a black family does get wealthy, their goal is to shield their children from those poorer black communities and to access the social, business, educational and other service networks of the white community, just as the family in this post.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
“A white woman married into a black family, or in any kind of publicly acknowledged relationship with a black man, is a woman without status anywhere.”
I respectfully disagree. A white woman will always be white. There may be white people who dislike what she has done but in a head on contest with a black person she will ALWAYS win out.
She will NEVER be beaten by police because she had sex with a black man. She will NEVER be shot 45 times even when she is unarmed because she had sex with a black person..She will NEVER be sterilized because she had sex with a black male. She will NEVER be called a ‘nappy-headed ho’ or a ‘ho’ of any kind on national TV because she had sex with a black male.
In fact, unless she is seen with a black man, no one will treat her any; differently than any other white person.
And the ONE BIG DIFFERENCE between her and any black or non-white person is SHE HAD A CHOICE.
black people do not have a choice to be black
non-white people do not have a choice to be non-white
Today’s mass media actually encourages (wants) WW to have sex with BM that is why they praise the Heidi Klums and Kim Kardashians of the world because they WANT the black male to become even MORE confused by being sexually involved with the same people who who represent his oppression.
The same is true for black females. And what is more confusing than that? To be a daily victim of white racism then go home to lie down with a white person???
And at the end, the black male and the black female will be estranged and filled with hate and contempt for each other INSTEAD of being UNITED because a house divided CANNOT STAND. Divide and conquer ALL DAY LONG.
And if anyone doesn’t believe this is the strategy, why is sex with whites being promoted in movies, TV commercials and TV shows (like Scandal)? What do we see? Isolated black males and females and nothing but bi-racial children.
Do we think it’s because the powerful white media suddenly loves black people? If they ‘love us’ so much why don’t they show BM and BW together in most serious dramas and movies? Why don’t they show see POSITIVE relationships between black males and females in commercials and movies and TV shows?
Yet, a white female who is still white and is free to make whatever choice she chooses, expects to be seen as some sort of martyr by black people? An object of sympathy?
when in reality, she is part of the scheme (both consciously and unconsciously) of maintaining the most wicked system of oppression ever designed? I think not.
One question: have you ever sat down with your black male or your black child and told them what white people say about black people when there are no black people in the room?
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Linda Keres Carter
I’ve seen that you are very argumentative with others, so I think I’ll just leave this alone.
————————————————————————————
(cue Robert DeNiro)
You talkin to me?
You talkin to me?
You talkin to me?
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Mary Burrell
I appreciate you pointing out that African immigrants exploit poorer black communities the same as Asians. I was not aware of that. I always thought they were helping.
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@Sharinalr
“It didn’t seem to matter if the mother or father was white. But I live in Cali where everyone wants to claim they are mixed.”—Careful. That mindset most certainly is spreading to the east coast.”
That’s what I’m afraid of as well.
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“I respectfully disagree. A white woman will always be white. ”
Yes, yes, yes, you list many of the dismissals. Whether they’re spoken or not, they’re always there. I can feel them in the room the same way I can feel the revulsion white people feel towards my ‘choices.’
And once the dismissals are in place, nothing more is heard. I won’t be free to define myself. I will be defined by racist America. And it is of no consequence to anyone but me that the basket full of adjectives in that white basket negate me.
I’m here waiting. I understand how equal we are in ways you are not at all ready for.
A true Krajina Serb will NEVER be white (as defined in America). We DON’T have a choice. Who we are is down to the DNA. The world wants to say we are extinct. But I know better. Try reading all of my last post again. Try.
It’s for me to say who I am. It’s for me to define myself. And I’m saying it. Whether anyone wants to hear or not is of no consequence.
For us, being defined as white was the ultimate cultural genocide, particularly now when you understand who it was, behind the scenes, sending us into extinction. If you can take in who really are, and you certainly can if you can get past the epidermis, you will appreciate what I’m saying.
It didn’t matter how many dismissals and projections I’ve had to put up with because, in being tight with y’all I was immersing myself in the Serbian mind. It’s the same mind, about 90% the same mind. And the ways it’s different are fascinating. It’s a beautiful mind. I love it.
Pravi Srbi su crni. Pravi crni su Srbi.
You ask if I’ve ever told my family about how racist white people are. That’s funny. My kids, now grown, hope I’ll stay off that soapbox ’cause they know I’ll be up there far too long, saying the same things they’ve heard countless times before. Can’t you tell what I like to talk about? Me! This person, right here.
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I have a couple thoughts on this story. First of all, I feel for this kid and his parents. That’s a sucky experience.
On the other hand, this demonstrates the power of the Narrative. Why is this story of discrimiination more worthy of coverage than the dispproportionate amount of crimes commited by blacks. Why is a kid who was called the N word more worthy of compassion than someone who was killed or jumped? Because the narrative demands it… the MSM has an agenda with every article published.
If this kid made it to 15 years of age without getting called a racial insult, he did better than I did… probably better than most of you, I’m guessing.
Also, not sure what this dad expected from the school. If it wasn’t another student making the insult, there’s a limited about the school could do about this. As the kid rightly realized, if he makes a big deal about this, it won’t help him or prevent some other jerk from off campus from doing the same thing in the future.
One of the rules was not taking walks at night. Like white kids aren’t trained not to go out at night in black neighborhoods? Like there aren’t detailed rules whites have to abide by to stay safe? They just can’t be mentioned in the MSM because Narrative.
Again, the media chooses which stories to focus on. This is designed to make white peoplle feel bad and support affirmative action and other redistributive policies. It won’t affect people like the dudes who went up to this kid and called him the N word one bit. If anything, it will make them more resentful.
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sharinalr
Mary Burrell
I appreciate you pointing out that African immigrants exploit poorer black communities the same as Asians. I was not aware of that. I always thought they were helping
——————————————————————————————
They are providing a service; a service no other people will provide, and for good reason.
Its hard work. They make their money one dollar at a time, thru a thick plexiglass window. They put up with all types of nonsense including the threat of death.
Service is not exploitation.
How many businesses have YOU opened in the ghetto?
Please stop with the socialist nonsense.
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Linda
A true Krajina Serb will NEVER be white (as defined in America). We DON’T have a choice.
—————————————————————————————–
Ok Linda, you’ve sewn enough confusion with your ramblings. Its time for YOU to answer the critical question:
Are you now, or have you EVER classified yourself a WHITE PERSON?
Take your time Linda.
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Biff:
I have a couple thoughts on this story. First of all, I feel for this kid and his parents. That’s a sucky experience.
On the other hand, this demonstrates the power of the Narrative. Why is this story of discrimiination more worthy of coverage than the dispproportionate amount of crimes commited by blacks. Why is a kid who was called the N word more worthy of compassion than someone who was killed or jumped? Because the narrative demands it… the MSM has an agenda with every article published.
If this kid made it to 15 years of age without getting called a racial insult, he did better than I did… probably better than most of you, I’m guessing.
Why is it that the experience of the kind cannot be separated from black crime? Is he a criminal? This doesnt appear to be the case. Does he support criminal activity? Again, unlikely. But, you have to lump all PoC with together just because ‘some’ of them commit crime.
Any person who put what happened to this young lad in the same breath as black crime ramblings needs to check themselves!
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Kiwi
I’m actually surprised you decided to read that comment. I knew where he was going the moment his name popped up.
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Solesearch Thwack,
What is perfect counter racism?
—————————————————————————
First of all Solesearch, I wish to withdraw the term “perfect counter racism” and replace it with “counter racism.” Excess verbiage in the pursuit of justice is a key pitfall try to PRACTICE counter racism and one to be avoided at all costs.
Counter racism is one of those terms like “white person”; it requires no qualification. Any prefix only dilutes and/or distracts from it. So lets review my statement with the new term:
Am I saying you can dodge white supremacists?
No.
Im saying when you practice counter racism, you won’t need to.
So what is counter racism?
(puts on Neely Fuller hat)
Counter racism = justice
In a system of justice, unjust people (racists, child molesters, murderers, terrorists, rapists…) are the ones who hide; they are they ones who dodge you, not the other way around.
Does that answer your question?
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Abagond,
Not so sure why Mr. Graham’s article should receive so much praise or attention….he isn’t saying anything new or earth shattering.
I don’t think there is a black or brown, non-white person who lives in the USA who doesn’t understand that money doesn’t shield anyone from white American racism…. it’s the fabric of this country and has been for 100s of years.
That’s why Hitler turned to father of the one drop rule, Walter Ashby Plecker, to get inspiration and words of advice on the proper etiquette and procedures for white supremacy and Apartheid.
White people being dis-Respectful to black people with money and power can be seen on National TV.
All anyone has to do is turn on the TV or read the newspaper and witness how these racist pricks, masquerading as politicians, activists, and journalists, have/are treating President Obama with Absolutely NO respect.
and what makes me even sicker, is listening to black people bash Obama in the attempt to look “unbiased” and non-political. BS
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Kiwi
In that case read with caution. Don’t want you to keel over with all that laughing. 🙂
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“The answer, perhaps, would be for wealthier blacks to form service networks within the black community. But it seems like, when a black family does get wealthy, their goal is to shield their children from those poorer black communities and to access the social, business, educational and other service networks of the white community, just as the family in this post”
I believe you will find that investing in the “poorer black” community is a frustrating experience. It seems as though tenants don’t pay rent reducing the funds available to properly keep the property up to date. The overall deportment of the individuals living in the community discourages many desirable tenants from moving in!
For those of you who believe that money is going to remain or flow back into such neighborhood I suggest you purchase some property in the poorer neighborhood instead of wanting someone else to do it.
Until the social mores of the poor change there is no place to go but down!
This is not a Black problem; this is not a White problem; however this is an economic reality!
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I believe the above thoughts are personal and do not reflect any truth other than what each individual thinks!
I have witnessed relationships between Blacks and Whites that have lasted over 50 years. All over the United States individuals have joined regardless of race since Lena Horne married a White man Lennie Hayton.
It is truly unfortunate that individuals allow themselves to believe that they alone can determine the correctness of any situation.
If a person chooses to be a racist, whether Black or White it is their business. Even though many Blacks do not believe that a Black can be a racist they must admit they can be haters!
The person that wrote this must be White because they were in the room with Whites when no Blacks were in the room; otherwise they could not hear the conversation!
Finally, if you study the Immigration and Naturalization laws of the United States you would be surprised to find out that the only people in the Unites States that were considered White came from northern Europe! It took years and many Supreme Court cases for some “Whites” to become “White”! The early choice for individuals who came to the United States through the eastern side was only concerned if they were Christian not if they were White!
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Thinking about this article (and it being in the Washington Post) made me think that the audience is still white people. They can think to themselves that at least they are not like those teenage kids and pat themselves on the back.
They will go the next day to work and tell their black colleague that they did not even think they were black – no different from anyone else.
Then they feel even better.
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I can’t get past the son being so shocked about being called the dreaded N-word. I have so many questions about the parents having a discussion with him and siblings about this. From reading this incident i am guessing they didn’t. Because if they had he wouldn’t have been so traumatized by this. Were they so blinded by their privilege that they thought they were immune to this. That they because of their upper social class distinguished them from poor urban blacks? There is some part of me that thinks he was kind of naive.
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*Were they so blinded by there privilege that they thought they were immune to this?*
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@ Linda Keres Carter
who said: “Yes, yes, yes, you list many of the dismissals. Whether they’re spoken or not, they’re always there. I can feel them in the room the same way I can feel the revulsion white people feel towards my ‘choices.’ A true Krajina Serb will NEVER be white (as defined in America). We DON’T have a choice. Who we are is down to the DNA. The world wants to say we are extinct.”
—
I realize there are degrees of “whiteness” but that is a beef between white people and I feel that is something they have to settle amongst themselves. That is a beef I have no real interest in. Because at the end of the day, regardless of how “white” a white person is considered to be, they all practice white supremacy in the same ways.
So my focus will remain on how to identify white supremacy and all its tricks and tactics and to share that understanding with other non-white victims and learn from them as well.
Thanks for answering my question about telling your black partner and non-white children how white people practice racism to which you said:
“You ask if I’ve ever told my family about how racist white people are. That’s funny. My kids, now grown, hope I’ll stay off that soapbox ’cause they know I’ll be up there far too long, saying the same things they’ve heard countless times before. Can’t you tell what I like to talk about? Me! This person, right here.”
Which makes me wonder why your non-white children–unless they can pass for white–are not interested in hearing about racism?
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TrojanPam
Which makes me wonder why your non-white children–unless they can pass for white–are not interested in hearing about racism?
I think kids who are not subjected to this kind of treatment regularly, in fact let me go further and say rarely, feel that it is in the past or that they will only encounter this if they go to certain places. I think it is a case of out of sight, out of mind. When they are in their teens, this can get worse. A couple of my friends – kids totally separate from different backgrounds, one who was private educated black girl and another child state school educated boy who is mixed, say that any time they try to warn their kids, that they get resentment. The kids say that it is ‘not as bad’ as what their parents are trying to prepare them for. Both parents – separately confided in me that this is how they felt at the time too and that it is only retrospectively that they understood and they cringe at what they ‘permitted’ at the time. Navigating friendship amongst children is extremely difficult. Its a shame that children still have to be given the ‘talk’ to warn them anyway.
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@ George Ryder
I believe the most powerful white people — the white supremacists — decide who is all white and who is less white and who is not white.
When eastern Europeans or people from Italy and Ireland came to the U.S. they were not considered “white” by the White anglo saxon protestants (WASPs) and were discriminated against. The first slums, street gangs, drive-by shootings, organized crime, ghettos were created and inhabited by these European immigrants, most of who were illiterate and could not read.
Once slavery ended, however, their services were needed and so they were offered a deal to become honorary whites to be the foot soldiers for the most powerful white supremacists in order to keep blacks, former slaves and other non-whites “in check.”
That’s why you find so many “ethnic” whites in the police department where they are allowed to slaughter black people without consequences. I remind black people that they are just doing their jobs as foot soldiers in the war of terror against us.
Of course, I’m not saying all policemen or even most, but there is no doubt that there MUST be a reason why so many policemen and women get away with murdering black people other than simple racism. Anything that happens over and over again to the same people serves a PURPOSE. It is not random and it is not an accident. It is built into the SYSTEM.
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@ Omnipresent
who said: “I think kids who are not subjected to this kind of treatment regularly, in fact let me go further and say rarely, feel that it is in the past or that they will only encounter this if they go to certain places. I think it is a case of out of sight, out of mind.”
—
I have to agree, especially since most young people (and not so young) get their reality from the TV and movie screen. They don’t understand how refined racism works, like you can spend your money in a white establishment but can’t get a job or if you get a job you probably won’t get a promotion, or if you get a promotion, you won’t be able to get a loan or a lease to open your own competing store. or restaurant.
Unfortunately, with an economy in rapid decline (yes, they’re lying about a recovery) and Obama as the black scapegoat for all the crimes of the whites behind the scenes, old style racism will make a comeback and the younger blacks will be getting a taste of what their parents and grandparents got.
I think the kids resent someone older trying to school them about racism (or any damn thing) is they don’t respect adults. The media and movies have programmed children to believe they are smarter than their parents, (I watched this trend happen over the last 10 or more years) and unfortunately, their biggest role models are the rich, loud mouth fools in the entertainment world — all by design.
That, too, is built into the system, to disable the parental authority of adults and other people in the community in preparation for the “new world” that is to come
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@ George Ryder
Some are hidden, some are not.
Think about it. WHO decides who is white, black, red, brown or yellow?
The white supremacists.
Black, red, brown and yellow people didn’t call themselves ‘black, red, brown and yellow’ before white supremacy was created because no one needed to. But once white supremacy became the dominant system, skin color and labels were CREATED to distinguish between “us” and “them,” between white and non-white.
It doesn’t make sense except in a system of white supremacy because there is no such thing as “red land” or “black land” or “yellow land” or even “white land” so why do people use those terms to define themselves?
because we are dominated by a system of white supremacy CREATED by white supremacists and it is currently the most powerful system ever known in modern human history – and the most wicked.
regarding powerful people, it’s just the opposite. The more powerful the person, the less they want to be seen.
That’s why they HIRE pawns and puppets (like presidents and CEOs) to do their dirty work and take the blame for the policies created behind closed doors.
You don’t need publicity when you run the world. Everyone who needs to know who you are already knows
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“Because at the end of the day, regardless of how “white” a white person is considered to be, they all practice white supremacy in the same ways.”
I appreciate your honesty. If we were people of color and had had exactly the same experience with colonizers and white supremacists and felt about it all exactly the same way as we do, I have a feeling you would find it of interest, as you said,
“So my focus will remain on how to identify white supremacy and all its tricks and tactics and to share that understanding with other non-white victims and learn from them as well.”
But we’re not, so, enough said.
As to my kids, their disinterest has more to do with parental redundancy than anything, as I said. They grew up in a county that is 40% Black, with so many bi-racial children they formed their own clique in high school. I wouldn’t presume to speak for what their experience of life is. They’re of age now. That’s for them to define. No one else.
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Linda Keres Carter
“So my focus will remain on how to identify white supremacy and all its tricks and tactics and to share that understanding with other non-white victims and learn from them as well.”
———————————————————————————————
No Linda no.
FIRST, you gotta answer the critical question:
Are YOU now, and/or have YOU ever classified YOURSELF a white person?
I warn you Linda; you should answer this question because I can make it worse for you.
Now stop tap dancing and ANSWER THE QUESTION
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George Ryder
Pam
so how does one fight an invisible enemy?
———————————————————————————–
George, how do white people counter terrorism?
Pedophilia?
Drunk driving?
When white people REALLY want to solve a problem, do they ask nonwhite people first?
Did Lincoln go talk to black people before he signed the emancipation proclamation?
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oops?
I think you are correct.
Let me get the range officer to initiate self destruct.
Abagond, can you please delete that post?
Thanks.
(Linda, you ain’t off the hook)
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@ Linda Keres Carter
And I appreciate you and I being able to dialogue respectfully
Yes, if your people had the same experience we would have that in common and maybe a common solution would emerge but unfortunately, that is not the case.
And that is troubling as well, the detachment of bi-racial children from the racial reality of their family members. I don’t fault them entirely because they are caught in the middle, not black and not white and in my experience, many secretly resent their parents, especially the black ones, for creating that situation
again, that’s my experience since I have many in my family. The vast majority do not want much to do with black people, do not consider themselves black, do not socialize much with black people and aspire on some level to be “more white”
The same dynamic existed in South African apartheid society and in Haiti before the revolution, that white supremacists created three classes of people:
white, coloreds (bi-racials), and blacks
and they used the bi-racials desire to not be mistreated as a weapon against the blacks (darker skinned people) and that is why the blacks also killed the “coloreds” because they felt they had no choice.
I am not advocating harming or killing anyone BUT black people who are seeking liberation from oppression under the system of white supremacy are making a HUGE mistake to have children who will NOT identify with their struggle and who in many instances want to be white, which is understandable because who wants to be mistreated and denied privileges
I wish we lived in a world where skin color didn’t matter but that is not the reality I created, it is one that forced upon me and so I have to be truthful about it.
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And I meant to add, the same it true when black people breed with Hispanics and Asians, the offspring, if they don’t look too black, often identify with the most privileged side even when they don’t have a white parent and have instead an Asian or Hispanic parent, and Tiger Woods is a great example.
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@ George Ryder
“How does one fight an invisible enemy?
My enemy is not invisible.
My enemy has MILLIONS of foot soldiers that carry out his/her orders. If not for the foot soldiers, the loan office that denies black people a loan or charges a higher interest rate, or the police officer that racially profiles black people, or the supervisor/manager who refuses to promote a qualified black worker, or the city clerk who refuses to issue a permit to open a business, or the politician who funnels school funds away from black schools to white schools or the meat market manager who brings in the old meat from white supermarkets and sells them to black people, or the teacher who forces black grade school students to act out the role of a slave in front of his/her white classmates
without these white FOOT SOLDIERS who carry out the racist orders of white supremacy TERRORISM, the white people behind the scenes COULD NOT FUNCTION. They would be powerless and OUT OF BUSINESS
The responsibility falls ON the white foot soldiers to change their BEHAVIOR, not on the victims who are damaged by it.
but until that happens, anyone who practices racism and mistreats people on the basis of their NOT being white IS my enemy. The white people who do not, are not.
how do I fight the enemy I can see? That is the million-dollar question and that is what black people are attempting to answer .
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to follow up on what thwack said,
White people are not going to solve the problem (aka eliminate the system of white supremacy) because black people ask, beg, plead, cry, march, demand, pout, sex them, stomp around, assimilate, or riot
they are going to do it because they want to stop the monstrous practice of mistreating people on the basis of color
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Integration is not the problem. Racism is the problem. Racism is not inherent, racism is learned behavior.
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BTW ladies, Mrs. Graham has kept herself in pretty good shape after 3 children; maybe she’s the one who needs to write a book?
*WB*
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“He works for a top law firm and lives on the Upper East Side, a rich, white part of Manhattan.”
Its interesting that Mr. Graham wouldn’t choose a majority or at least near majority Black neighborhood to live and raise his children. There are lots of Black folk in new York, many of them upper class. Perhaps areas of Brooklyn or Queens have upper-middle class Black neighborhoods. Instead he chose a majority white area and likely a majority white apartment building to bring his family and then sends his children off to school in a very white part of the state to a near all white school.
I wonder what made him think that he could conduct his entire life in a white-European world and not have them ever encounter people who would be threatening or impolite about their difference? Although it’s PC to publicly praise difference/diversity, in reality, difference is usually uncomfortable, and often results in conflict. Personally, it’s hard for me to imagine that if I moved my family to a majority Black neighborhood and sent my children to a Black area of the state to attend a near all Black school they wouldn’t encounter bullying, name calling or even the threat of violence at least once no matter how affluent the location. It’s not that Black people are bullies, just that it’s human nature to attack difference, regardless of what they say on Sesame Street.
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“White people are not going to solve the problem (aka eliminate the system of white supremacy) because black people ask, beg, plead, cry, march, demand, pout, sex them, stomp around, assimilate, or riot”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmm… I’m not so sure about that last one…riots. History seems to suggest that white people become considerate (for change) when their money AND lives are on the line,
I believe white people are traditionally/culturally notorious for equating freedom with the necessary spilling of blood – or something to that effect….
Perhaps Black people (globally) should begin to learn to think in this way also. I’m not seeing anything else that might possibly motivate them to stop mistreating Black and other not “white” people.
The foot soldiers and their masters are not going to change themselves, by themselves.
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@TP
I think the actual experience might vary here.
Some may grow up with that experience.
A not too insignificant proportion may also grow up deciding that they do not want TOO MUCH to do with white people either, feeling some resentment about being overly taught about the virtue of respectability politics (coming from their white parent) and toward their black parent for giving in to that kind of thinking.
Many biracial kids are put into a predicament about how they must view the world in order to survive, and sometimes, their parents give them bad or at least inappropriate advice.
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Just Me
Hmm… I’m not so sure about that last one…riots. History seems to suggest that white people become considerate (for change) when their money AND lives are on the line,
—————————————————————————————
A riot is not the same thing as war. If you want to go to war against white people, thats one thing; but if you just want to burn up your own neighborhood (including your grandmothers house); white people are prepare to film it, interview you about it, write books about, have discussions about it, hand you cans of gasoline…
The first thing black people need to do is get the LANGUAGE to describe what they are fighting FOR.
Without that we’re just a bunch of howling monkeys.
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@ Just Me
the 60s riots caught the system off guard. Now, they’ve created strategies to deal with rioting blacks, and speaking of riots, what did they accomplish? Look at black people today.
Look at us ten years after the riots and crack cocaine flooded our communities. Look at us today, being disenfranchised from the workplace while the “first black” president that so many seem to love signs an executive order to bring more cheap labor into the country. And he’s signing more “free trade” agreements that will take even more jobs from americans.
Look at all the trojan horses that black people call “progress.” Black figure heads that don’t talk to us. Rich black entertainers that degrade blacks for a living.
During the riots, we burned down the stores and homes in our own neighborhoods and NOTHING has changed other than we’re being gentrified out of those same neighborhoods. In fact, things are getting worse and if we think a “riot” is going to fix the problem, then we need our heads fixed.
White supremacy is a live and well and black people are still marching. That’s the definition of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting different results.
The only people we can change is OURSELVES and that is something most of us are not willing to do. So, get ready for more of the same (oppression).
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@ Jefe
I can see what you said. In fact, I was contacted by a young bi-racial female who wanted to talk about her experiences growing up with a white mother and a black father and she said her white mother refused to talk about racism and her father was very passive about the issue so it fits what you’re saying. She can’t go to either parent on how to navigate the world as a biracial person.
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Mary Burrell
“I can’t get past the son being so shocked about being called the dreaded N-word.”—–The shock says to me that either they were taught very little about racism or what they were taught they ignored because of their own privilage.
I’m actually a bit curious on if other books were written before or after this experience, but another dread question comes to mind that I shall share later.
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Trojan Pam
Thwack
For two supposed sharpshooters, (in code) I find it surprising that you both failed to see the big THING here, without me having to spell it out in clear (Nat T -ish) detail.
Violence begets violence. Mistreatment begets self-defense… violence. Well, sometimes it does, and probably not often enough…
Please explain how Black people “changing” is going to prevent/stop white people from mistreating them.
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@Just Me
“The foot soldiers and their masters are not going to change themselves, by themselves”—I agree. Yet it is tricky to go about changing them as well.
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“Yes, if your people had the same experience we would have that in common and maybe a common solution would emerge but unfortunately, that is not the case.”
What is your expertise in Balkan history?
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@ Just Me
White supremacy is a mind game as much as anything. It’s the same kind of mind game that an abusive husband uses against his abused wife. First, he has to convince her that she is nothing. Then he convinces her that she deserves to be mistreated (beaten) because she is nothing. And then he persuades her that to be something she should please him and do what he says so she can “earn” his respect and love.
And because she is brainwashed and her self-esteem has been trashed, she believes him and she takes the beatings and lies to her family and friends, painting a rosy picture of her marriage despite her missing teeth, and bruises that she can’t explain.
Because she actually believes she needs his validation to be whole.
But what happens when she wakes up one day and realizes he’s full of S? And she decides that no matter what he will never beat her again, that he will have to KILL her first. And she means it.
That FORCES him to make a decision. Either he is going to kill her or leave her alone. But something is going to change because she demands it and is willing to risk her life for that change because to be beaten for the rest of her life is worse than being dead.
Now, no matter what he does, he has to change his view of HER, he has to change his mind about how far he’s willing to go because he has never gone as far as he could.
Whenever I hear a black person express surprise or disgust over an abusive woman situation I tell them, if you want to understand the mindset, look in your mirror. Black people have done everything the abused woman did to “please her man.” Black people have groveled, begged, cajoled, pleaded, jumped through hoops, taken a licking and got up ticking, have put our self-esteem SQUARE in the hands of those who despise us, have chased them, begged them to love us, willingly given over our bodies and sexuality to please them, have taken insults and smiled and told ourselves it’s a compliment, have told ourselves (the LIE) that other black people just need to “do better” and “stop being so ghetto” and yet we still get our butts kicked for the effort,
just like that abused woman.
That’s what I mean by “changing” because we D sure can’t change white people. Haven’t we figured that out by now? Have you ever tried to change someone you know and found out you can’t? That’s just ONE person yet we think we can change MILLIONS of people and the way they think about us? How do you change someone who doesn’t see anything wrong with what they’re doing and feel they’re benefiting from it? YOU CAN’T
So, what’s left? You change yourself AND your response to your mistreatment. You stop praising people’s hair and skin and eyes because it looks more “white.” You stop name-calling other black people and making fun of black hair and skin and lips and bodies and butts. Black women can stop mean-mugging each other and calling each other foul names. Black men can stop calling each other dawgs. Black people can stop spending our money in places that don’t hire us. Black people can stop supporting comedians and politicians (same thing) that degrade us and ignore our needs. We can teach our children what real self-respect is by NOT putting our enemies on pedestals and by NOT supporting those who disrespect us. But our children aren’t learning that by watching us, that’s for doggone sure.
So, when you ask what “changing” means, there a list as long as the state of Kentucky of things we can and should do and telling white people to change shouldn’t be on that list because if we haven’t figured out yet that we really can’t make them do anything they don’t want to do then we haven’t been paying attention.
I don’t understand what ‘big thing’ you’re referring to so please enhance…
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@ Linda Keres Carter
I have no expertise or knowledge n Balkan history. I have my hands (and head) full just trying to UNLEARN all the lies about my own history taught to me by the European.
But I bet one thing is true. Your people were not kidnapped and brought to a foreign land thousands of miles from home and turned into chattel slaves for over 400 years and stripped of their names, language, land, religion, children, history, food, and customs and forced to work for free for 400 years and build a country that now claims they have no rights or anything coming.
And if you think the two experiences are even REMOTELY comparable, you’ll will have to provide the links or proof before this conversation would make sense to me.
whatever injustices your people experienced is unfortunate but it was not by may hands or at the hands of people who look like me (I’m assuming) so your beef is not with me
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@TP
But who can she go to? Can monoracially identified black or white people help her either?
I think there is a tendency for monoracially identified people to label their behaviour as “aspiring to be more white”, and therefore “not want much to do with black people”, but I think that is just the interpretation of their navigation behaviours, The only other alternative that monoracially identified people would offer them is to just accept being black. Biracial people may need a safe place to discuss about racism without having to denounce or renounce their white background or their black parent’s racism passivity (or having to first figure out about navigating the colourism biases first).
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Just Me
Trojan Pam
Thwack
Please explain how Black people “changing” is going to prevent/stop white people from mistreating them.
—————————————————————————————–
First of all, Im not a sharpshooter, Im a simple farmer (which any combat vet will tell you is the most dangerous man in the world)
By changing your behavior (codification) you increase their “racial work load” even to the point of producing a Nash equilibrium. During one of Fuller’s presentation somebody pointed out that if all black people became codified, the white supremacists might try to kill us all.
Fuller responded by saying the entire purpose of the code is to put the racists in a corner where they only have 2 choices:
1. Produce justice
2. Kill us all
Do you want me to reveal the logic behind his position?
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George Ryder
“To speak of just or unjust in itself is quite senseless; in itself, of course, no injury, assault, exploitation, destruction can be ‘unjust,’ since life operates essentially, that is in its basic functions, through injury, assault, exploitation, destruction and simply cannot be thought of at all without this character
——————————————————————————————–
George, where did you get this nihilist nonsense you are quoting?
When ever so called intellectuals argue against the existence of justice I kick them in the shin (really hard) then I ask them, “what are you looking for?”
What?
But YOU just said it doesn’t exist?
Why are you looking for something YOU claim does not exist?
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@jefe
You brought up a point I was going to touch on later. Thank you. You made a very good point.
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@Trojan Pam
(I almost wrote Terrible Pam because of your penchant for telling the “terrible” truth!)
“I don’t understand what ‘big thing’ you’re referring to so please enhance…”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was trying not to be too specific….
The big thing (to me anyway) would be riots… (my own made up code word for the list of words that follow) …along with a proper dose of anarchy, mayhem, calamity, chaos, monkey-wrenching, sabotage, terror, all justified actions against the violence of RACISM…. all of which falls under the umbrella of VIOLENCE. It’s self-defense against the system of racism that has been VIOLENT against Black people for hundreds of years.
Eventually even the battered wife will hit back at her husband, even if it kills her to do it. Sometimes death is better than suffering.
BTW, I’m all for us changing ourselves in the ways you have described. It’s long overdue!
________________________________________________
@Thwack
“Fuller responded by saying the entire purpose of the code is to put the racists in a corner where they only have 2 choices:
1. Produce justice
2. Kill us all”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. I think we all know that they aren’t going to produce JUSTICE unless they have a really strong incentive to do so.
2. Kill us all? I think Professor Derrick Bell proposed or mentioned that as well.
Killing us would be highly counterproductive from their supremacist point of view. If we were gone they would have to invent some “new blacks.” Someone they could oppress, mistreat, abuse, marginalize, scapegoat and so on. Or else they would turn on themselves, in the process Balkanizing both Europe and North America into diverse groups who would wage war against the other.
The system remains in a mode of constant refinement – to maintain the status quo – with their feet squarely on OUR necks.
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@ jefe
But who can she go to? Can monoracially identified black or white people help her either?
I think there is a tendency for monoracially identified people to label their behaviour as “aspiring to be more white”, and therefore “not want much to do with black people”, but I think that is just the interpretation of their navigation behaviours, The only other alternative that monoracially identified people would offer them is to just accept being black. Biracial people may need a safe place to discuss about racism without having to denounce or renounce their white background or their black parent’s racism passivity (or having to first figure out about navigating the colourism biases first).
—-
It is a tricky situation but I believe if they increased their understanding of white supremacy and how it functions and how it creates “gang fights” between non-whites based on skin color (“I’m lighter than you/ I’m darker than you”) they would realize it really doesn’t matter. It’s all MADE-UP. You are either white or non-white in a white supremacy system, the rest is MADE-UP just to confuse you.
Yes, you have a white parent. So what? Most black people have white ancestors. So what? And Native American ancestry. I do. So what?
We are all still being mistreated. Understanding that the white supremacy system is MADE UP and is based on the MISTREATMENT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WHITE is crucial to dropping all those imaginary labels of “bi-racial”
So, ssuming that my mixed heritage — despite having TWO blacks – means I must be “multi-racial/mulit-racial” since I have two multi-racial parents (who are erroneously called ‘black) ” and then we can go on to more nonsense that bi-racial is more accurately called “multi-racial/bi-racial” and where does it end?
We are ALL being mistreated because we are not white so the focus should be on STOPPING that mistreatment not on what kind of made-up names we didn’t make up, by the way, to call ourselves so we can have even more division and confusion.
I admit I don’t know what it’s like to have a white parent but I do know that black people breeding with white people creates massive confusion and destroys the already fragile black family (since the white side and the black side are more than likely NEVER going to create any real, long-lasting bonds or legacies — which the white supremacists who promote IR are fully aware of)
and from what I have seen, when black people are in these relationships and bring their white partners into the black family circle ALL constructive conversation CEASES. Suddenly, no one dare bring up racism for fear of offending that one or two or three white people in their midst. Then we fall back into denial, become even more numbed and dumbed down and our ability to deal with real issues using our families as a BASE becomes NULL and VOID. (all by design)>
At some point black people are going to have to get serious about this situation and make some serious decisions about either being SLAVES forever or fighting our oppression.
And when you’re serious about winning the war being waged against you you will make different decisions and you make the sacrifices that are necessary and one of them is to stop having sex with the people who represent AND benefit from your oppression.
If you can’t do that, if you can’t see the need to do it, then maybe, you don’t mind being enslaved and your children and your children’s children being enslaved because you really don’t want justice bad enough and therefore, will NEVER have it. It is what it is.
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@ thwack
who said: “Do you want me to reveal the logic behind his position?”
—
I do, and I think you should share it because we are being pushed to that critical mass time and the only reason I hesitate to explain what I mean is it is off topic (i know the rules, abagond 🙂 and I don’t want to be anymore “terrible” than I already am
but as the economy declines and Obama signs executive orders that will certainly put more black people out of work and create more hatred from the furious white collective toward us by default (all by design)
black people will have some very difficult days ahead and our inability and unwillingness to understand that we cannot AFFORD any more divisiveness within our ranks will be the sad commentary written after what is happening HAS happened.
And those who are still deluding themselves that they can “change” white people I would like to see the EVIDENCE and an explanation of what that means.
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@ thwack
I overlooked your last post. Would love to see what the other posts think about Mr. Fuller’s very logical position.
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First of all Pam, Fuller needs his own thread. He is still alive, living; ah, strike that– existing in Washington DC still hitting on all cylinders; but he’s in his 80s; no need for second hand information, you can call him and ask him any question about racism you want.
Pam, do you want me to tell you what he told me about the white supremacists killing all the black people?
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“But I bet one thing is true. Your people were not kidnapped and brought to a foreign land thousands of miles from home and turned into chattel slaves for over 400 years ”
Yes, you’re exactly right! This is where there’s a fascinating difference. We did wake up one morning and were no long a part of Europe, but were now part of the Middle East, foreigners in our own land, sufficiently different from our occupiers that we were that much less human to them, but we were still on our own turf which was mountainous so in that respect the experience was more like the Native population here (ultimately including genocide to the point of extinction for some of us). But we always had Robin Hoods up in those mountains being a total PITA to our captors, which if nothing else, could give people hope.
The difference meant we had an opportunity to develop a support structure, We even had an Esther right off the bat. The Serbian Orthodox church is basically a slave religion. And the fascinating thing is that the way we interpreted Christianity is so freakingly similar to the way y’all interpreted it. (Y’all had B’rer Rabbit and spirituals. We had our gušlar songs, which were chanted, not sung, we’ve been rapping for 500 years LOL). So, on our end we had like 70 years to brace ourselves for 530 years of Jim Crow sharecropping style slavery, while y’all were yanked halfway across the world in a box full of excrement, thrown in with a bunch of people speaking different languages from different countries. It was the ultimate in engineering a slave population. We were slaves longer, but y’all get double credit for the total immersion aspect. And even being so stripped with no defenses, the same defenses and support structures nonetheless sprung up, quite quickly and served the same functions. And despite all the early warning defenses, we were ultimately damaged psychology in much the same ways.
The color scheme was in reverse. We were slaves to The Turk (the usage of that phrase is identical to the usage here of “The Man.”) It meant we went from being blue eyed blondes to being ‘exotic’ looking brunettes, (rape was legalized and rampant) which became critically important when the Aryans took hold and decided we were racially inferior mongrels needing extermination. But it would never occur to me that this was a beef I had with Black Americans. As a little girl, knowing nothing about all this, (grandma was passing for the people exterminating us) y’all were just this beacon of inspiration, talking about the ‘recovery of a devastated identity’ that for some reason was just so damn fascinating. Had no idea why, but there was just something there that was the most important idea in my world.
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@ Just Me
who said:
“The big thing (to me anyway) would be riots… (my own made up code word for the list of words that follow) …along with a proper dose of anarchy, mayhem, calamity, chaos, monkey-wrenching, sabotage, terror, all justified actions against the violence of RACISM…. all of which falls under the umbrella of VIOLENCE. It’s self-defense against the system of racism that has been VIOLENT against Black people for hundreds of years. Eventually even the battered wife will hit back at her husband, even if it kills her to do it. Sometimes death is better than suffering.”
—
It’s hard not to want to retaliate physically when you are being mistreated but I strongly suggest to all to NEVER, ever promote any form of violence on the Internet toward anyone.
that being said, I don’t advocate violence because it is unrealistic for a people who are totally dependent on others for guns, bullets, food, shelter, electricity, cell phones (you have to be able to communicate, right?) to talk about waging any kind of violent resistance against anyone.
Also, I believe the system WANTS us to go ballistic which is why the Ferguson verdict is being played up all over the media. They want black people to “lose it” because then it justifies FURTHER oppression and the ability to enact all the not so secret legislation that has been crafted with us in mind like
mass killings, martial law & internment camps
After the 60s riots the powers that be decided they would never again be caught off guard by hordes of rampaging negroes
Besides, for a people who are NOT serious about being free, who are willing to make little to no sacrifices for that freedom, who want to be “individuals” and “free” to do whatever they want to do with whoever they want to do it with, why would violence even be on their to-do list?
from where I sit, most black people are a lot meaner to other black people than they are to white people. Just watch our behavior whenever a white person walks into a room and how accommodating we suddenly become.
If a black person even dared advocated violence against whites, more than half the black people in the room would try to stop you and the other half would run and tell the white man/woman on you.
My point is NOT that we should be violent toward anyone UNLESS it’s in self-defense, my point is our heads are NOT screwed on right because we lack KNOWLEDGE about ourselves, what happened to us, why it happened and what happened and we lack knowledge about the system that oppresses us
so, for me, the first step in being serious is to be serious and that’s to educate ourselves about the real problem THEN work on changing ourselves first, not changing other people. (how can you do that when you haven’t changed either?)
The second change is to change the way we treat other black people (and whew! that’s a mouthful right there! because if we can’t stop disrespecting each other regardless of whether we’re poor or like Mr. Graham, what’s the point in even talking about solutions?
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@ Thwack
Yes, I would like to know what Mr Fuller said
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@ Linda Keres Carter
thanks for sharing an interesting history lesson.
I don’t doubt that other people have had their trials and tribulations, that’s why it’s so important for ALL of us to fight for JUSTICE instead of “JUST US” which is the way most of the world seems to work
Like Mr. Fuller, Jr. once said (i believe it was him)’
You can’t have some justice or a little justice. Justice means NO ONE is being mistreated.
That might not be obtainable in the real world but it is definitely a goal worth fighting for
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@ George Ryder
who said, “is this an oppression competition or something?”
(I had to laugh at that one 🙂
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Mr. Fuller never said whether he thought the white supremacists could kill all black people; but he did say if they tried, they would not only be challenging black people, but also “whateverwhomever” produced black people in the first place.
Neither white people nor nonwhite people are sure what that is/was.
To quote Obama:
“you didn’t build that”
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@ thwack
I believe that, too, that there is something about black people that no one can really define, including us, and that we were created for a reason and only that which created us can completely destroy us
because when you look around the world, the white supremacists seems to focus the most on black/African people
while at the same time there is this sexual obsession with and cultural covetous of us and our melanated darkness which they study in secret laboratories all over the world.
what they need to study is the MASSIVE KARMA that is hanging right over their collective heads for attempting to destroy the people and the planet that the Universe/God created
that is something else they will not be able to dodge or destroy
(in my opinion)
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@TP,
My response to you just got blacked out and erased. I think I must have a hacker blocking me out – I get the same error message that I get when I try to log onto wordpress in Mainland China. The firewall police must have found me. 😮
Re your statement:
That is NOT a moot point.
There is a world of difference between having a white parent and a couple of great grandparents that had a white parent, if if they are both “mixed ancestry”. For the person whose white ancestry is more remote, their ancestors had already made decisions about themselves way before that person was born.
Malcolm X could denounce his white grandfather because it was his grandfather, and his mother already made a decision for him. Likewise, Obama’s children do not have to decide whether they need to renounce anyone in order to identify as black.
100 years ago it would have been much easier for a biracial child to be black. Either their white parent had already renounced them (esp. if it was a father) or the white parent’s family had already disowned the parent (esp. if it was the mother). They would get cut off from their white family and white society. However, if a biracial child of today maintains a relationship with their white parent and family, then there is a much greater price to pay today (esp. the psychological price) to simply renounce that connection.
Even if a particular biracial person has a supreme intricate understanding of white supremacy and its history in America (let’s say, even vastly superior to your understanding) the following statement of yours still will not follow directly from that: “It’s all MADE-UP. You are either white or non-white in a white supremacy system, the rest is MADE-UP just to confuse you. ”
Despite your firm belief in the inevitability in the outcome of such a white supremacist society, the actuality is not nearly as “black” and “white” as you imagine.
Yes obviously you don’t.
Yes, but that puts the responsibility of the outcome on the parents’ – – it is not fair to the child of that family to bear the responsibility for the so-called “destruction of the family” and their identifying as “black” will not solve that problem.
Your “reality” is no more nonsense than theirs.
If you are going to make those kinds of retorts, I am going to have to admit that I will tend to be reluctant to refer a biracial person going though some personal issues to you. Your response might seem to be completely insensitive to what they are facing. I assume that your response would be something like — —
” In a white supremacist society, you will be viewed as non-whites by whites, and therefore beneath them. The reality is that calling yourself biracial is an imaginary delusion that you are anything but black. That is, unless you can actually pass as white.”
You might think you are helping them, but I tell you, that is some really painful stuff you are laying on them. You might think it is for their own good, but that retort can also be destructive (as much as their white parent pushing respectability politics on them).
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@ George Ryder
who said, “is this an oppression competition or something?”
That is exactly what a great many people read into what I say and it grieves me. They’re not hearing what I am actually saying over and over and over again. The knee jerk reflex is to assume I’m competing and dismissing,and then I’m dismissed. I just want to talk out loud about what I think about. Rebecca West noticed that in the 30’s. That’s all we talk about. Been at it for hundreds of years. I’m just being true to my nature, but I’m not allowed to do that in this country. It’s outside the racial roles dictated.
Did we talk about that in our marriage? That was our point of contact. It’s all we talked about. You could tell when we were getting along because that’s what was going on.
I do have a valid perspective, I have something to add to the conversation, and I will keep talking as long as I have breath. That’s what we do.
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“I believe that, too, that there is something about black people that no one can really define, including us, and that we were created for a reason and only that which created us can completely destroy us.”
Yes, that’s what I was talking about the similarity in the religion. There are legends that develop the idea that we were suffering slavery because God wanted us to be his special, chosen people, just like the Jews. There was a Bishop who tallied it up and figured the Jews had been slaves in Egypt for 530 years, just like us. That’s why I said that about the double points for hereditary slavery. LOL.
Yes, there is something special about people like us. That’s what was going on with us. We were too beaten down to see it in ourselves anymore, but we could see it in you.
This is not about a competition. It’s about an identification. Everybody talks about how we’re supposed to identify with on another, but in this context it’s not allowed. It’s scorned.
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“do you ever find your voice being dismissed in your own family as well?”
As I said, it was a point of contact in the marriage. I’m not using a screen name, so I can only go into so much detail.
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Linda Keres Carter
@ George Ryder
who said, “is this an oppression competition or something?”
That is exactly what a great many people read into what I say and it grieves me.
—————————————————————————————–
Really?
Does it grieve you enough to answer the critical question:
“Are YOU now, or have YOU ever classified YOURSELF “white person?”
Or do you need to see more dead/destroyed black people first?
Im trying to be nice Linda, Im trying real hard.
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@ Linda KC
“Everybody talks about how we’re supposed to identify with on another, but in this context it’s not allowed. It’s scorned.”—I hear you and it is sad that it is that way.
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‘Im trying to be nice Linda, Im trying real hard’
No you’re not. You’re venting. And you’re trying to trap me into another way to dismiss me.
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The whole point of this rhetoric is to tip anyone perceived as using the “bi-racial” tag as a way to “straddle the fence” over to one side or another. For instance, a light-skinned bi-racial person who hears the above from someone would, depending on their own strength and state of mind, likely say “f*ck it” and start identifying as white. Embracing whiteness when one has the ability to actually pass for it is probably the easiest solution to solving the “bi-racial” quandary, namely by snuffing out the part that’s perceived to be a weight around their necks (the black part).
A bi-racial person who’s not light enough to pass could either say “f*ck it” and fully embrace blackness or remain determined to win favor of mainstream America by carving out a unique racial niche that’s nether white nor black. Visibly black Tiger Woods tried this with the whole Kablasian shtick. Won’t quite work if you’re visibly black enough to get thrown into the Negro woodpile when the opportunity arises. Same thing happened to Tiger once his infidelity issues gathered steam.
Trojan Pam’s comments on why rioting would be counter-productive rings true. White America’s been planning for such eventualities for decades now. See how many unreconstructed are just chomping at the bit to be turned loose for a grand ol’ n*gg*r-stomping time.
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@thwack
The racists would likely opt for option 2, as 1 would be a bridge too far for their Southern planter class sensibilities to take. I see option 2 as being a mutual suicide for white America in general. If the Chinese and Russians are watching, this would be a prime moment to neutralize a world power.
@Trojan Pam
The DV analogy is interesting and that pretty much sums up Black America’s responses to white supremacy and aggression. We’ve tried fighting these people, reasoning with them, appealing to their sense of decency, etc etc. Marcus Garvey tried the “leaving the house” option, but that didn’t pan out, either. Most Blacks simply weren’t willing to part with all the capital and treasures they’ve built here.
I have a feeling that a modern mass exodus of Black Americans would (and is) being neutralized at this very moment with all the changes in passport and ID requirements. In other words, we’re being locked in the house.
Solutions? Whatever they are, they have to be done upwind of white America’s collective nose. Ideally, we should quietly set into place a framework of self-reliance within the U.S. and elsewhere around the world, so a clean and smooth disengagement from white society can take place when the time comes.
But I strongly suspect the only real solution is the same as the woman who’s spent 30-40 years with an abusive husband: wait until he kicks the bucket or becomes senile enough that he ceases to pose any sort of genuine threat to your well-being. Of course, that all depends on 1)if whites don’t exercise thwack’s option 2 and 2)if there’s anything left to reclaim and rebuild (and the energy to protect what you’ve reclaimed from future predation).
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“Mack Lyons (@DDSSBlog),
I have a feeling that a modern mass exodus of Black Americans would (and is) being neutralized at this very moment with all the changes in passport and ID requirements. In other words, we’re being locked in the house.”
Linda says,
Mack, I highly doubt that… white Americans would Love it if black Americans abandoned ship.
But the big question would be, “where would you go?”
The Caribbean would be out because black people there have had enough of their own islander neighbors immigrating to their countries. Trinidad and Barbados is giving Jamaica grief about Jamaican immigrants.
So the question would be, which country in Africa would open the doors to a mass immigration of black Americans? I’m sure many would be happy because with you, comes money and connections.
and the other big question, “would the new black American immigrants be willing to blend into local life?”
or would they retain their “American Privilege” that all Americans bring with them when they visit other countries, and blend into the community of foreigners who are part of the well-to-do 10%
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Linda Keres Carter
I would simply ignore him. Sure he will try to bait you into a conversation, but continue just the same. He likes being rude and crude and race does not seem to matter in regards to who he will be that way to.
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“I see option 2 as being a mutual suicide for white America in general. If the Chinese and Russians are watching, this would be a prime moment to neutralize a world power..”
They have no idea there could be such a conflict. What they’re seeing is an absolutely corrupted power who is taking whatever it wants, wherever it wants it, using any evil means necessary to do so. And who’s the head of state? Who’s high up in the military? Who’s a large percentage of the military?
The US covertly funded rank, right-wing fascist neo-nazis* to douse activists in Kiev, who didn’t want to be a US colony, with accelerants, toss a match and then claim the building accidentally caught on fire. (Actually, the building was hardly burned at all. It’s just the people who burned up.) Multiply that scenario how many times worldwide? For how long?
You can’t be hated as much as this country is and survive.
No, the real movers and shakers in the world really have gotten inclusive. They’re out to enslave everybody, everywhere, and the rest of the world thinks Black Americans are part of that power vortex.
*There’s a pix of John McCain shaking hands with one of those dudes.
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Thanks
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“thanks for sharing an interesting history lesson.” Trojan Pam.
You’re welcome.
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@ George Ryder
who said: “If you are going to make those kinds of retorts, I am going to have to admit that I will tend to be reluctant to refer a biracial person going though some personal issues to you. Your response might seem to be completely insensitive to what they are facing. I assume that your response would be something like — –
” In a white supremacist society, you will be viewed as non-whites by whites, and therefore beneath them. The reality is that calling yourself biracial is an imaginary delusion that you are anything but black. That is, unless you can actually pass as white.”
—
It’s alright to quote me but please don’t put words in my mouth.
Other than that, I agree I could have been more sensitive in my post. I’d like to share a sound clip from Mr Fuller on the subject since I did such a poor job of explaining my reasons.
http://racismws.com/2013/05/10/new-neely-fuller-sound-clip-added-president-obama-is-not-half-white/
I have a wordpress site with Mr Fuller sound clips on it but for some reason it is not working and hopefully should be up again soon
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Linda Keres Carter
‘Im trying to be nice Linda, Im trying real hard’
No you’re not. You’re venting. And you’re trying to trap me into another way to dismiss me.
————————————————————————————————
OK Linda, since you won’t answer the critical question, answer this one:
Do you know if you are a white person?
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sharinalr
Linda Keres Carter
I would simply ignore him. Sure he will try to bait you into a conversation, but continue just the same. He likes being rude and crude and race does not seem to matter in regards to who he will be that way to.
———————————————————————————————–
*Note to nonwhite people*
Do not be distracted by a black person who trys to “mammy” for a white person you are attempting to question about racism; its going to happen. It happens because victims of racism often behave like abused children who seek the acceptance of those who mistreat and abuse them.
Racists count on their victims to serve this function.
White women know all the have to do is start crying and “Oprah” will come hug them and make them feel better, Amazing isn’t it?
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“…change the way we treat other black people (and whew! that’s a mouthful right there! because if we can’t stop disrespecting each other regardless of whether we’re poor or like Mr. Graham, what’s the point in even talking about solutions?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
THIS self-disrespect, self-disregard …!!! is likely our biggest hurdle, our biggest challenge.
Throwing off the mental/emotional bondage, confusion, chains and shackles we’re all bound up in and have been bound up in since we’ve been lied to, colonized, kidnapped from Africa and made to work for free.
Thanks for being terrible. The more TERRIBLE, the better, especially for the ones coming up behind you!
((NEW BLACK VOICES: telling the TERRIBLE truth in the 21st century))
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thwack
I have made it my habit to not respond to you but…
*Note to people that can read*
You can start telling me something when you, a noted hypocrite, can explain your lengthy derogatory and lewd comments towards me a black female. Just because you claim to be black does not mean you are less guilty of any abuse that white people can provide.
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Now if you will excuse me I have to repress the mental ignore button.
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@ Mack Lyons
@ Linda
I don’t think they’d pick option 2 because the white supremacists don’t want to kill blacks, or they could have done it (or tried) by now. I agree with Thwack who said, they’d have to create some n**ggers.
You see, to be superior (have a white supremacy system), you have to make someone else inferior (black inferiority) Otherwise, how could such a system exist?
It’s the same reason that an abusive husband won’t let his wife leave him and the same reason Marcus Garvey’s movement to take blacks back to Africa was sabotaged, the same reason that blacks who tried to flee the south (after slavery) were forced to stay.
Don’t we get it? Once you have a slave, someone you can mistreat and scapegoat and blame for all the things that are REALLY wrong with you, why would you (or the abusive husband) let them leave? Why? So you can face the man or woman in your mirror?
There is something white people need from us and while there are a substantial number of white people who would love to see the last of us, they would soon MISS us because then they’ve have to turn all that venom they are used to spewing on us onto other white people. You can go all over the Internet and no matter WHAT the topic is, some white person will start talking bad about black people.
Have you ever noticed a person with a lot of faults who is constantly focusing on what is wrong with other people? I see this all the time. It’s kind of a way to soothe one’s own conscience and inferiority complex.
A white college professor interviewed on the internet show C.O.W.S. was asked (by the host) what would be the white response if black people stopped having sex with white people, and he said, “We would react with violence.”
There is a white obsession with black people and our sexuality, especially black male genitalia.
There is also an obsession about melanin and the inherent qualities (powers) that it has since melanin exists in every brain cell in the human brain and is one of the most powerful substances in the human body – something black people have a SURPLUS of and something white people are DEFICIENT in. That’s why black infants walk and talk sooner than white and Asian infants. That’s something white scientists admitted, not something I made up.
Mack, I agree with you when you said, “I have a feeling that a modern mass exodus of Black Americans would (and is) being neutralized at this very moment with all the changes in passport and ID requirements. In other words, we’re being locked in the house.”
I hate to sound negative but black people are not at the moment capable of such a scheme of self-reliance EVEN if the white supremacists didn’t interfere, which of course, they would.
We have no recovered psychologically from slavery or integration to have the will to separate ourselves. For every black person who feels ready to separate, there a dozen who, like the slaves on the plantation, are too afraid and distrustful of other blacks to separate from our white masters and mistresses. Just look around, black people will comfort and defend a random white person SOONER than we will comfort or defend each other.
Also, in this high-tech, super surveillance police state, it’s impossible to do anything in secrecy and you know we are not going to collectively keep any secrets from white people, especially since more and more of us are sharing their beds.
This is what I mean about jumping head of ourselves, thinking that we can not understand our enemy or the system or ourselves and first change what WE – as individuals say and think and do BEFORE making any strategic plans.
If we understood the system we would understand there is NOWHERE to hide, NOWHERE to run from a global system where all black nations (Africa, Haiti, the Caribbean, Libya, U.S., etc) are under siege and under the control of the white supremacists.
I don’t have a solution but one thing I do know, you can’t come up with one until you understand your enemy and understand yourself.
As Sun Tzu, an ancient Chinese General once said:
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” – Sun Tzu
(sorry about the long post)
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@ Just Me
It ain’t easy being terrible but the reality I’m looking makes it necessary
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“Do you know if you are a white person?”
I have written a lot it doesn’t appear you’ve read, that would let you know the answer to that question..
We are physically Caucasian. Existentially, as defined by America? LOL
I will tell this story again, maybe you missed it. It’s all you need to know, if you have any interest in hearing me. If you can’t catch what I’m getting at, it’s because you don’t want to, in which case there is nothing more to say.
The first Krajina Serb I ever met (we were the minority Serbs of Croatia who are now politically, culturally extinct following horrendously sadistic extermination in WWII and then in the 90’s expulsion engineered by the US) heard me say that I didn’t know who I was or what had happened to us, but everyone I surrounded myself with in my adult life were people who had reference to the same issues. They were Black or Jewish or Indian, mostly Black. She got really quiet and then told me that when she first got here 12 years ago following the NATO invasion, which left her severely PTSD’d, she went to college and she chose a Black college because those were the Americans who were most familiar to her and she felt the safest around..
I just need to know. Can you relate? Or are we just different to you? I’ve spent a lifetime relating to people and now I want to know, can they relate to me? I don’t need to bother with anyone else. It’s a bitch it took all these years to feel enough leverage to say that, but that’s what genocide is. A bitch.
Can you relate?
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thwack
Mr. Fuller never said whether he thought the white supremacists could kill all black people; but he did say if they tried, they would not only be challenging black people, but also “whateverwhomever” produced black people in the first place.
Neither white people nor nonwhite people are sure what that is/was.
To quote Obama:
“you didn’t build that”
———————————————-
White people have a long history of exterminating other non-white people including (tainos, Tasmanian, black people in Argentina, etc….)
I don’t see how we are exempt from that killing even if “whateverwhomever” is watching. I think White people are simply not going to produce justice. There is no evidence that they are going to change. Begging, pleading, sexing… ain’t working and hasn’t work. I believe when non-white black people finally accept that fact, we can move on to solutions. I think the ball is now on the non-white court to actually do something about it once we get over our cowardice.
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TrojanPam
so, for me, the first step in being serious is to be serious and that’s to educate ourselves about the real problem THEN work on changing ourselves first, not changing other people. (how can you do that when you haven’t changed either?)
The second change is to change the way we treat other black people (and whew! that’s a mouthful right there! because if we can’t stop disrespecting each other regardless of whether we’re poor or like Mr. Graham, what’s the point in even talking about solutions?
____________________________
I believe we DO know about the problem even if we don’t speak about it openly…That’s WHY Mr. Graham does what he does. That’s WHY Clarence Thomas at one point in his career mentioned “hi tech lynching”. That’s WHY we disrespect each other because we KNOW we can’t do that to white people and get away with for long. That WHY time and time again once white people throw black people under bus, the black person starts talking about racism. WE DO KNOW.
The fundamental issue in my opinion is and has been OUR COWARDICE. There is an element in us that likes to BOW DOWN. We THINK by being “non-threatening” politically, economically, financially, that will help keep the dogs off us but it has not worked. By not establishing and following a proper code of conduct, We have tried to forestall the inevitable two conclusions for white supremacy: (1) Produce justice (2) Kill us all. We have to get over our fear of revolutionary suicide.
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@ sparkle86
Yes, we know racism exists but most of us do not understand how the system of white supremacy works or how it uses trojan horses to confuse and deceive us like showcasing black people in high profile political (Obama) and entertainment puppets *Jay Z) where they earn a lot of money and hold fancy titles so the black masses will think we’re making “progress” because we want so desperately to BELIEVE it’s true.
This is NOT our fault. Every attempt we have made to be self-reliant has been met with extreme resistance. Black Wall Street , Marcus Garvey, and the Reconstruction period after slavery are perfect examples.
Yes, we are afraid because we have been terrorized for 500 years and we are weary and battered and we know what whites collectively will do to us and our children and the law and the courts and the police) will turn a blind eye.
It is hard to be brave when you are totally dependent in a hostile land.
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@ML,
It is not all about whether you can pass for white or black or what you can pass as. No. That is MY point., but I know that TP (and apparently you) do not agree.
And I don’t think you got the Tiger Woods think figured out correctly either.
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thwack,
“In a system of justice, unjust people (racists, child molesters, murderers, terrorists, rapists…) are the ones who hide; they are they ones who dodge you, not the other way around.
Does that answer your question?”
How does a black person practice counter racism? What are the actionable steps?
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No matter how much money you have, as a black person, you will still be seen as a lowlife, lower than even the poorest white man with a criminal record.
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“How does a black person practice counter racism? What are the actionable steps?”
Black Snake Moan.
When the rampant racism of half a century ago was interrupted by the Movement, mental health in America upped a notch. The cycle of projecting self-hatred onto some ‘other’ was interrupted to a degree. The level of civilization worldwide went up. There’s the obvious offshoots, women’s right, gay rights, NA rights, etc. but less obvious but more widespread was the everyman who was enabled to slay his own demons because he wasn’t pretending they belonged to someone else anymore. Suddenly there were self-help books on the shelves and people openly talking about therapists.
We were talking earlier today about what’s ‘special’ about Black people. I have a theory that people who endure awful predicaments for hundreds of years develop special qualities that run on auto-pilot, hard-wired, grassrooted. Black people were stuck in the horrendous predicament of being totally de-militarized captives in a rapacious foreign land. That’s where non-violence germinated. People tell me I’m wrong. Ghandi started it, or whoever, but I’m convinced it was in that crucible that it evolved.
There’s that story about Lincoln calling Harriet Beecher Stowe the ‘little lady who started this war,” but she was just writing about one of those old dudes. They were all over the place, and those old mothers as well. And they knew exactly what they were doing. They got their captors to fight their war of liberation for them. Damnedest thing anybody’s ever done. Of course they didn’t get all that liberated, but serf-style slavery (Jim Crow) is not as helpless as hereditary slavery. A little more leverage.
Then when the time came that autopilot thing had everybody walking to work in a bus boycott. There was no charismatic leader leading that initially. It just happened. Everybody knew what to do.
I don’t know what will happen next. It will just happen, and it will come out of that instinct that runs on auto-pilot.
Everyone who’s been a child has belonged to a group whose rights can be horribly mangled. Everybody needs that special instinct. Share it.
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I wonder what this current uprising will entail re:Mike Brown? It’s like we coming upon
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-cont ( we as African-Americans are coming upon something that will make a mark like Emmit Till did for the Civil Rights Movement
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Linda Keres Carter
“Do you know if you are a white person?”
I have written a lot it doesn’t appear you’ve read, that would let you know the answer to that question..
We are physically Caucasian. Existentially, as defined by America? LOL
————————————————————————————————–
I have a question for nonwhite people, the correct answer of which also functions as an answer to “solesearch’s” question:
“How does a black person practice counter racism? What are the actionable steps?”
Here is my question for nonwhite people: Did Linda answer the question?
Imagine your child is sick and Linda starts giving you advice. You ask Linda:
Are you a medical doctor?
She refuses to answer
Then you ask her, do you know if you are a medical doctor?
and she still won’t answer.
(then Linda starts crying and Sharina comes over and hugs her like a big fat black mammy and attacks me…)
Would you take anything ELSE she says seriously if she won’t answer those two simple questions?
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@Thwack
I don’t know what is sadder…the fact that you proved that you are a hypocrite or the fact that that you believe calling me all out my name makes you a poster child for counter racism or white supremacy.
So tell the room, hypocrite how calling me a fat black mammy or imagining raping me is counter racism? How is comments such as the one below fighting white supremacy?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-264246
I will quote Trojan Pam:
“The second change is to change the way we treat other black people (and whew! that’s a mouthful right there! because if we can’t stop disrespecting each other regardless of whether we’re poor or like Mr. Graham, what’s the point in even talking about solutions?”
Funny how providing the truth is attacking you, yet you are the only one being confrontational. Truth hurts then stop trying to engage me and then I won’t bother to use the truth to expose you.
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@Linda Kc
You ‘re very welcome. No one should be subjected to abuse over their opinion and/or experiences.
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sharinalr
@Thwack
So tell the room, hypocrite how calling me a fat black mammy or imagining raping me is counter racism?
———————————————————————————————-
Solipsism is the practice of a person believing everything is about them; and being unable/unwilling to understand anything unless they first insert themselves as the subject of the discussion.
It looks like ego but its not; its “worse” (much more annoying). It most commonly presents in females, but this may be due because it is generally not tolerated in males.
Males are expected to explore, discuss, understand THINGS like ideas, concepts, abstractions….the logos; instead of focusing on themselves like females.
This is why the best art, philosophy, science… is always done by men.
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@ Thwack
All that you said is another way of excusing that you have a problem.
Good luck with pretending to be for a cause you don’t practice.
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Okay, we can ignore him. He’s made it very clear he’s a misogynist and a bully. I could make a few aserbic remarks (my spelling) but I won’t. It’s all good. We had a very productive conversation on the other thread all the while the guy was hurling insults, no reason we can’t carry on to our heart’s content.
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@ Linda KC
Exactly. There is some good and valuable information always flowing regardless of the bumps in the road.
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Re: Ignoring thwack
•Okay, we can ignore him.
•Exactly. There is some good and valuable information always flowing regardless of the bumps in the road.
May I humbly submit a Bravo! to you ladies.
——————–
the “humbly” is more for LKC, whom I’ve not had the pleasure of speaking to; Sharina is already used to me. 😀
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“May I humbly submit a Bravo! to you ladies.”
Thank you! I admire that when someone steps in from the sidelines while a bully is on the attack.
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Like when the unmarried “sistahs” give you the stink eye for walkin round with your black husband?
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@sharinair…“I would love to know the answer to this as well. A young black male told me a month ago that I could not talk about or engage in black issues because I did not marry black and that I likely conform to “white” norms. Yet this same young male was quick to support some white norms and was an advocate of dating white women…”
Thanx, Sister, good to “hear” from you again as well. While I’ve not commented as much due to some very hectic life changes, trust me — I read Abagond’s blog, passionately!
Sounds like you ran head-on into some naked, “patriarchal,” and clearly, hypocritical) thinking from that young man. I get it often, as well. My response is always to {smdh} and say, “Please, you don’t know me. If and when you decide to get past your stereotypical assumptions a out my life and how I think– maybe we can talk.”
”I have a feeling that having a black mother/white father will likely bring out a black identified child as opposed to white mother black father.”
I can’t speak to the latter cuz that’s not my experience, but the former is. And for me, you’re right. Even though I was an integrationist when I married, there was never any question about my sons knowing and experiencing, as Baldwin wrote — “from whence I came.”
My husband and I were both in the Navy and my mother kept them every summer in SC when they were small (giving our young marriage a break from the child-rearing routine!). She fed them grits (something she swore up and down I used to love, but I do not touch today for some reason!); took them to our Black Baptist church every Sunday (and to Perkins Pancake House after!); made sure they learned how to swim, took them out to the island to spend time with my grandmother and aunt who also lived out there (Adrian Petersen’s situation today notwithstanding – they knew the switch! Like me and all my other cousins, aunts and uncles, my grandmother would send them out to pick one for her to use when they misbehaved); they spent nights at my other aunt’s in town and hung out with their cousin and his friends; they played and made friends (lasting up until today!) with the other Black kids on the block in our old, “movin’ on up“ neighborhood (my mother’s been gone for 18 yrs. but her best friend still lives in the house next door).
Not until his Dad’s post- mulignan phase (I talked to him today and told him about this post and asked how to spell that sh*t cuz I thought I’d misspelled it, which I did), did my sons meet their paternal grandparents. They were 3 & 6 (they came down from NY and babysat when we went to that red & white polka dot dress, Navy Day Ball in MD). Prior to then, the husband had told them if they couldn’t accept his wife or his kids, then he couldn’t have anything to do with them either. They didn’t spend the kind of time with his fiercely Italian side of the family as they did with mine until they were in middle and high school.
@MackLyons…“I’ve heard people say that, in so many ways. They figure that at least during segregation, black communities had their own self-sufficient economies and cultures, largely out of sheer necessity. When that necessity went, so did the cohesion of the community at large. Black America adopted an individualist streak with a vengeance in order to prove itself worthy of sharing the same table as their white counterparts. So no, that doesn’t sound schizophrenic at all.”
When I said it sounds schizophrenic, I was referring to my prior comment about being interracially married because to some (like the young man in sharinair’s earlier comment), somehow one cannot believe that, “integration was the worst thing that could have happened to the black mind and has done more to destroy black self-respect and self-reliance” AND be interracially married, as I am.
While I agree totally with everything you said about the “sheer necessity” and what happened after it was gone, I believe, as I said up-thread to Abagond, the qualifiers, “many [in]” and “in general” before and after the word “Black America,” are necessary if we want to have an honest conversation. As always, I can only speak with certainty about myself, but I can assure you, proving myself “worthy” to share the table was never my goal. Because I studied THEIR sh*t and worked hard at it -– I KNEW I was worthy when I got to the table. Now if they chose not to accept me because I was Black, well that was on them.
What bothers me most about my people is — given from whence we came (granted it’s fairly recently that many of us have begun to learn all about THAT — present company included) and how SO VERY LONG we’ve persevered and succeeded DESPITE all the obstacles put in our way (and they’ve been multitudinous!) – we still insist on celebrating “the first” this, or “the first” that, which, it seems to me, is merely a celebration of THEIR ACCEPTANCE of the powerful, smart, deeply spiritual (not in an organized religion kind of way), humanitarian, innovative people we’ve always been!!! I swear, we’ve got to stop tellingtheir lies to our children, Family.
@mary burrell…Thanx, Sister!
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@Trojan Pam…”…BUT I can’t help but admire black people who, in spite of the worst segregation and racism of their day STILL managed to become doctors and dentists and lawyers and business people and who tried to instill values in their children that include being well-mannered (not stuck-up), well-read, well-educated, and who aspire to be something in this life.”
I admire them too, but I do so because that’s who we’ve ALWAYS been, both here, and on the Continent as I have learned. It was ancestor, Imhotep: http://youtu.be/4eyPzLlKXyo, about whom Hippocrates (the Western-declared “Father of Medicine” and after whom the Hippocratic oath was named) said — “I am the child of Imhotep” (but they wouldn’t teach us that sh*t – it’d make us too “uppity,” crashing their BS stories about our inferiority and interfering with their free labor schemes.
”Some things about the black elite are admirable, other things not so, but this is true of ALL the economic classes of black people.”
Not that I’ve seen — unless of course, mimicking white supremacy is admirable.
And speaking of imitating white people, I’d like to know how many people reading this blog
1) will be celebrating Thanksgiving (a celebration of the slaughter of native people) 2) will be celebrating XMAS (when Christ was not born on the 25th) 3) did celebrate the 4th of July (when we’ve never known freedom) 4) call themselves ‘Christians’ and still practice the SAME RELIGION taught to slaves by the white slave-owners. 5) drive luxury cars (in imitation of who?) 6) purchased the latest high-tech toys with the most status (in imitation of who?)
1) Not me, celebrating my 34th wedding anniversary the next day
2) Me – (not the whole white-Jesus-was-born thing, but because as I said up-thread, over 400 years takes a lot of time to undo!) so instead, we’ll be celebrating fellowship, having our family together, eating good food, drinking good drinks while enjoying having the time to spend. The eldest and I will be retracing his young steps spent with my mother – with my granddaughter (Lawd ha’ mercy, now I’ve got to admit I’m old!). Xmas 2010, spent getting my money together to go to West Africa in January 2011; Xmas 2011, The husband and I decided to forego the usual mall fare for the sons and put renewed passports and tickets to The Gambia under the tree — the four of us spent two wonderfully, educational, soul-stirring, family-feeling weeks of the New Year among primarily Black folk (some Europeans there too, but they were not the majority!); XMAS 2013. spent uneventfully at home in the “belly of the beast” amid plans to move home to SC (gave the boys cash rather than buying sh*t we knew they’d take back cuz our “tastes” haven’t evolved)
3) not me, I celebrate Juneteenth and have for some time now
4) not me, Particularly since my, “Crisis of Faith” six years ago — http://lets-be-clear.blogspot.com/2008/04/crisis-of-faith-part-one.html (we live and we grow, no?)
5) Not sure if a VW is consideredluxury, but I do drive one because, after having had five of them over 34 years (one which proved itself most safe and dependable when a concrete, electric, light pole fell on it — with me and the husband inside it one night in the Keys!) – I simply trust them.
6) Not sure to what “toys” you’re referring…
”Until we can face the TRUTH– and that is we — black people– are a SUBJUGATED POPULATION whose identity was stripped during the process of 400 years of chattel slavery — a people who do NOT know their origins, their original language, religion, traditions or names those people have no choice but to IMITATE whatever culture they wind up in.
Again Sister, while I agree wholeheartedly with the first part of your statement (we surely still ARE a SUBJUGATED POPULATION — we DO have a choice, if we’re only willing to stand in it. Is it easy — No! Is it necessary for liberation? Abso-damned-lutely!!
</i
”And we should not be so quick to pretend otherwise OR to condemn other black people for trying to survive within that system UNLESS they are harming other black people.”
No pretense or condemnation here, Sister., but do you really believe that Graham is NOT</i harming other Black people by first, writing the books to which you referred us (I’ve ordered them and can’t wait to see how they make sense when weighed against his recent piece) – and then, coming back to the totally propagandized news media with this BS piece??!! Methinks Mr. Graham is suffering from a serious case of “Remember me, y’all? I’m relevant!” (just sayin’…)
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@Linda Keres Carter
That’s an interesting theory. When you don’t have the weapons or the numbers to make a military success against your oppressors, you turn to alternative tactics to win the war, no matter how long it takes.
As far as what’ll come out of Mike Brown, I’ve had someone posit this interesting action: that blacks should disappear from the streets, places of work and social circles for a day or two. That someone thinks this particular action will “shake whites to their core,” but I just don’t see that happening. At any rate, that something requires the coordination that I personally think most blacks not necessarily lack, but aren’t interested in.
The fact that he reserves his antics for you and sharinalr speaks more to his insecurities than anything else. I thought Abagond told him to knock that crap off.
Funny how guys like thwack are nowhere to be found when biff and the other resident bigots are out and about. Talk about choosing your targets.
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” I’ve had someone posit this interesting action: that blacks should disappear from the streets, places of work and social circles for a day or two. That someone thinks this particular action will “shake whites to their core,” but I just don’t see that happening. At any rate, that something requires the coordination that I personally think most blacks not necessarily lack, but aren’t interested in.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@Mike Lyons
My theory is that at the beginning of such a protest or a REACTION, “most” black people’s participation wouldn’t be required.
BUT, if a significant, just a noticeable amount of black people did continually participate (whatever that number might be) it could be the beginning stages of a growing protest movement with enough steam to turn into a worthwhile social movement (with enough Critical Mass) to – in relative short order – upset the current social status quo.
If strikes didn’t work, then absolutely no one would have ever gone on strike.
The Montgomery, Al bus boycott didn’t change anything the first couple of weeks, however over TIME the change that was sought did happen as more people (the critical mass) participated in the economic boycott.
Black people have a tremendous amount of collective economic clout! Just imagine if Lebron James and 33% of the other Black superstar athletes decided to join this strike. No Kobe Bryant, no Chris Paul, no Rondo, Tim Duncan and some other marquee names in the NBA. Could the NBA teams and OWNERS even exist without their participation?? And that’s just the NBA. What about pro football and baseball??
Could Tide detergent survive if enough Black people suddenly decided not to buy that laundry soap? It’s not about “most.” It’s about “enough”….
It’s about how WE THINK, and how WE ACT in concert with each other relative to our goals, our success!!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s gotta start somewhere, but it’s not likely it’s going to start with “MOST.” Lets start with some, and let the others join in as they awake from their slumber and excessive self-interest.
It boils down to how desperate we are to enact desperate measures that will bring benefits to us in the long term.
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“The fact that he reserves his antics for you and sharinalr speaks more to his insecurities than anything else. I thought Abagond told him to knock that crap off.”
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Simp alert!
“Funny how guys like thwack are nowhere to be found when biff and the other resident bigots are out and about. Talk about choosing your targets.”
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biff is a clown, an unsophisticated suspect…
Linda?
Now thats a smart one; she has you guys dancing like monkeys.
(((shakin my head)))
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The so called liberal white who uses buckets and buckets of words is the smartest and most dangerous racist suspect. Non-whites fall for their make- believe sincerity because We desperately want a white person to really love us. Because someone isn’t in the overt racist camp, they are somehow a-ok.
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Mike Lyons
As far as what’ll come out of Mike Brown, I’ve had someone posit this interesting action: that blacks should disappear from the streets, places of work and social circles for a day or two. That someone thinks this particular action will “shake whites to their core,” but I just don’t see that happening. At any rate, that something requires the coordination that I personally think most blacks not necessarily lack, but aren’t interested in.
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I don’t think boycotting for one day or two will have the effect black people think. If people want an impact, it is not in the streets, or places of work, or social circles.
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Trojan Pam
Yes, we know racism exists but most of us do not understand how the system of white supremacy works or how it uses trojan horses to confuse and deceive us like showcasing black people in high profile political (Obama) and entertainment puppets *Jay Z) where they earn a lot of money and hold fancy titles so the black masses will think we’re making “progress” because we want so desperately to BELIEVE it’s true.
This is NOT our fault. Every attempt we have made to be self-reliant has been met with extreme resistance. Black Wall Street , Marcus Garvey, and the Reconstruction period after slavery are perfect examples.
Yes, we are afraid because we have been terrorized for 500 years and we are weary and battered and we know what whites collectively will do to us and our children and the law and the courts and the police) will turn a blind eye.
It is hard to be brave when you are totally dependent in a hostile land.
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I agree to some extent especially us not knowing the intricate details about white supremacy but I don’t believe we need to know the fine details to have a basic understanding. I’ll quote what another individual said on a different forum which I agree with…….”White supremacy hasn’t done anything to Black people that we couldn’t have beaten off. We could do it today and we could have done it from day one in Africa. A slave is complicit In his own oppression. There is zero excuse for 40 million Black people to be subjugated while non-Black people build their power base off of our economy. Time for the excuses and denials to end. That’s for children.”
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@Mack
“The fact that he reserves his antics for you and sharinalr speaks more to his insecurities than anything else. I thought Abagond told him to knock that crap off.”—It was the sexual references he told him to knock off or he will be banned. Though I find satisfactory in ignoring everything else he says.
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@Trojan Pam, Pt. 1…It is my opinion that black people who engage in sexual relationships with whites will, by necessity, become more white-identified just by being in that relationship. We ARE WHO WE SLEEP WITH.
Please forgive me if this question offends, but I have to ask — how old are you? Why do I ask? Because, as a woman of a “certain age”, I can tell you unequivocally — WE ARE NOT WHO WE SLEEP WITH! – WE ARE OUR OWN SELVES (at least when we know what that means) !! Young women, insecure in who they are, tend to believe that kind of wrong-headedness and it’s so important to stop it because, not only is it soul-murdering, it can, at the very least (and often does) lead to legions of abused women, like the one “Just me” used as an analogy earlier or, at the very worst, ACTUAL PHYSICAL MURDER!
And, as “Just Me” so rightly concluded, the only way to stop that kind of madness is, You change yourself AND your response to your mistreatment .
”And what I have found in my experience is they are often (usually) married to or dating a racist who is NOT being honest about what it means to be a white person and that is a problem.”
That “usually” is a pretty loaded word, Sister. Not sure how many folk you’ve met who’re in IR relationships that you’ve taken the time to really get to know prior to throwing around the whole “usually” thing, but I’d hazard a guess it’s not many.
”Any black person who is subjected to racism and wants the system of racism/white supremacy to end cannot in all good conscience justify a relationship with a white person who not only benefits from their mistreatment but who, in fact, is probably a racist who is withholding valuable information about the way whites function within that system.”
See my above comment on loaded words on this one as well. “Any,” “probably” – really?? Let me just say this, Sister, sweeping generalizations based ONLY on what you think you know, will keep you from really knowing anything.
”I have asked countless white people who were in a relationship with a black person OR had a child with a black person if they have ever told that black person or that black child the truth about how white people function when it comes to black people and every single time I have heard nothing but the sound of crickets.”
That you asked “”countless white people” speaks volumes to me. How many “countless” Black people did you ask the same question?
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@Just Me
Sorry I had to applaud your comment. There is a blog that I go to that talks about black folks becoming or working to make a change in that very manner. I don’t expect everyone to do it cold turkey, but enough can make a big change.
One thing the blog talked about was one day out of the week do not shop at white stores etc. and if you need something be sure it is a black owned store that you go to. This centers around hitting their pockets, but it is significant in where else can we start to become independent of whites. I was excited when a report of higher sales in black stores which tells me some people are out there doing this.
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@Trojan Pam, Pt. 2…”I also believe that is an oxymoron and a gross contradiction for a black person to sleep white at night and preach pro-blackness in the daytime. That is nothing BUT massive confusion and self-delusion and anyone who does not understand that does not understand what it will take to overturn the system of white supremacy.”
While you may see it as a contradiction (as is your right), I preach pro-Blackness all the time! Why? Because I’m Black — not only in America, but the world! I assure you Sister, I am in no way confused or deluded. Fortunately for me, I understand I’m not “who I sleep with” and, I also know that overturning the system of white supremacy certainly doesn’t begin in my bed! Unlike Mr. Graham, I‘ve no desire “to fit in,” nor do I have any illusions about the people with whom I deal. And oh yeah, you never answered my question up-thread about why now? Given all his supposedly on-point books written (I’ve ordered them as you suggested, because I just have to figure out for myself why he wrote the current piece upon which this post is based), I am confused not only about why, but also about your staunch support of him here since, as I said before, I’ve “heard” your voice across these interwebs before and found lots of what you say quite valuable.
”…You will lose everytime. Yes, war is being waged against black people by the white system/white collective on every level — economic, education, employment, medical, religious, entertainment, politics, the prison industrial complex, the courts, the food, etc.
Of course, you have to the right to be with whoever you please, but we’ll just have to agree to disagree.”
*Sigh,* so not true Sister – a least not based on with whom one sleeps. Quite frankly, in my experience, the husband has been right there in every endeavor into which I’ve immersed myself in fighting these wars. Like I said earlier, marriage is WORK! And given “from whence he came, “we’ll just have to agree to disagree.” Peace
@sharinair…Conforming is never good regardless of whose rule’s one is trying to conform to.”
Amen, and Amen again, Sister!! It’s a hard, but very necessary lesson to learn, IMHO.
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@ Mack Lyons
At any rate, that something requires the coordination that I personally think most blacks not necessarily lack, but aren’t interested in.
Why, in your view, are they not interested in this sort of coordination.
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”Any black person who is subjected to racism and wants the system of racism/white supremacy to end cannot in all good conscience justify a relationship with a white person who not only benefits from their mistreatment but who, in fact, is probably a racist who is withholding valuable information about the way whites function within that system.”
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Auschwitz-Birkenau key code translation:
”Any JEW who is subjected to the concentration camp and wants the system of Nazism to end cannot in all good conscience justify a relationship with a German person who not only benefits from their mistreatment but who, in fact, is probably a Nazi who is withholding valuable information about the way Germans function within that system.”
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While I agree with you that education and money does not protect a person of color from being targeted, isn’t it racist to make such sweeping statements about white people as a whole? What are we teaching our children? They cannot control others but they do control and are responsible for their own actions. If we teach our children to focus on and judge others by race, we are breeding yet another generation of suspicion, distrust, and flat out hatred. Whites are not the only ones capable of racism and hatred. Focusing on nothing but the negative breeds misery no matter the subject matter. It’s time to focus on ways we can better ourselves rather than beating the racism drum all day every day. Jesus led by example and so I strive to do the same. Love is the answer. Use out without giving up and it will overcome hatred any day. We just need more of it. God bless.
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@Nikki
Where was that done? I reread the post above after reading your sentence and could not find any example indication that a sweeping statement about all white people was made. Where? Please share your concern about which statements are problematic. Every single reference I found for white people above only dealt with particular ones that were specifically encountered by members in the family – not sweeping generalizations.
That is the subject of the post. An example was given where teaching his children to be colour-blind and learn to act “respectable” when around white people did not shield his sons from racism.
How do you advocate that he teach his children so that it would be best psychologically for his kids and best for you? How do you know that Jesus was not part of his teaching his children?
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isn’t it racist to make such sweeping statements about white people as a whole?
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Sure, but I’d rather be judged by white people than buried by them.
I make sweeping statements about guns too;
Treat every gun like its loaded.
am I being racist against guns?
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@ sparkle86
who said: “I’ll quote what another individual said on a different forum which I agree with…….”White supremacy hasn’t done anything to Black people that we couldn’t have beaten off. We could do it today and we could have done it from day one in Africa.”
—
What is the STATED strategy of this person on the forum as to what black people should (realistically) do to ‘beat off’ white supremacy? For example, if it’s violence, where will blacks get the guns and bullets and tanks and other weapons from? Anyone making such a bold statement should be able to back it up. I’m not being sarcastic, I’m serious.
I agree that black people need to change what we think, do and say, but what is missing is INFORMATION about the system and most of us are acting on pure emotion and finger-pointing more than offering a real strategy.
I also agree that black people have the unfortunate responsibility to eliminate this system of oppression but where we fall short is moving from TALK to constructive strategies.
Speaking of 40 million people being subjugated, look at the U.S. South Africa, the UK, Greece, and any nation on earth at any time in history. The majority are always dominated by the minority.
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Nikki
Whites are not the only ones capable of racism and hatred.
What other race is capable of this? How does it manifest itself? Why did you think it was relevant to bring up in this situation?
Love is the answer. Use out without giving up and it will overcome hatred any day. We just need more of it. God bless.
Balderdash. You must have lived with your head in the clouds if you believe this twaddle. Nice thought though.
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@ Deb
I have to disagree with lumping ALL the black elite into one category or that the ONLY thing ALL black elite do is mimic white supremacy, especially since no one, including me, have defined what the “black elite” is.
As I said earlier, all black people, regardless of income, have been damaged by a system of white oppression. In Mr. Graham’s case, due to his upbringing, his damage manifests itself differently than a black person whose parents were crack addicts and winds up in prison after robbing and beating another black person.
We are too quick to judge each other and that is a symptom of the mass anti-blackness that exists in all of us, regardless of rhetoric.
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@ George Ryder
who said: “Always have & always will. Even when the masses rise up to remove the minority ruling class they are eventually subjugated & dominated by a different minority group, the world just keeps spinning…”
Amen. Anybody read ‘Lord of the Flies’ or “Animal Farm” in high school?
Human nature is what it is, as long as I got a chicken in my pot, you can oppress me all day long.
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@Omnipresent
I wonder where Nikki was in the last century or so to believe this bs here:
“Love is the answer. Use out without giving up and it will overcome hatred any day. We just need more of it. God bless.”
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Sharinalr
Yeah,its a bit like believing that singing All you need is love by the Beatles will make a difference. For the world to change people have got to. There’s too much self loathing around for that unfortunately.
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sharinalr
@Omnipresent
I wonder where Nikki was in the last century or so to believe this bs here:
“Love is the answer. Use out without giving up and it will overcome hatred any day. We just need more of it. God bless.”
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Nikki made a true statement. If black people loved each other we wouldn’t be the worlds foremost loser race; an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations of the Earth.
I once heard Neely Fuller suggest black churches throw out all their statues and painting and have black people stand in a circle and look at each other as they recite prayers and worship.
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Omnipresent
“There’s too much self loathing around for that unfortunately.”—-Agreed
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@Deb
Jews in Germany had the highest rate of intermarriage with non-Jewish Germans before the Holocaust occurred. A Jewish German psychologist alive during that era wrote that the Jews lacked self-respect because they were so strongly identified with Germans that they thought they were German and that’s the reason they perished.
the same dynamic exists among blacks in the U.S. Whether we admit it or not, all black people are white-identified to one degree or another — and many are in a state of deeo denial as to our true status in this nation.
Yes, I know we know how to TALK about racism but most don’t understand the system of white supremacy OR how it works and that is evident when people talk about not conforming when we ALL conform to this system, some more than others, and this denial is part of that white-mis-identification confusion.
Do you pay taxes? That’s CONFORMING. Do you put a license plate on your car before you drive it? That’s CONFORMING. Do you curse your boss out at work when he or she gets on your nerves? No? Why not? Because you’re CONFORMING.
My point is not to attack your marriage. I don’t have the right to tell you who to marry. Everything I post is my opinion and no one is obligated, of course, to agree with it.
My point is — what black people’s priorities truly are?
If that PRIORITY is to eliminate the system of white supremacy then we have to be willing to make real SACRIFICES. And that’s the problem. And it is not about preaching, talking, marching, wearing bad-azz t-shirts, voting, carrying signs or holding rallies or meetings. That’s the kind of stuff the white supremacists love to see their victims doing, that’s why the mayor and police chief will march side by side with black protestors because they KNOW black people are just blowing off enough steam and it won’t result in anything SUBSTANTIAL – and it seldom does.
What’s substantial? GIVING SOMETHING UP. For example, giving up some of our creature comforts and using that money to build our own black schools and businesses or supporting worthwhile black businesses EVEN when the system throws roadblocks in our path — and they will.
AND it’s about NOT having sex with the people who represent and BENEFIT from our oppression. GIVING SOMETHING UP. How can you fight your oppression at the same time you’re sleeping with the representation of that oppression? IT CAN’T HAPPEN AND IT WON’T HAPPEN.
And for those who think otherwise, how well is that plan working so far?
Black people in the U.S. are having more sex with white people than at any other time in our history here (voluntarily, I mean) at the SAME time that the so-called civil rights clock is spinning BACKWARDS. Blacks are being purged from schools, neighborhoods, employment, even from major league baseball and black males and females have NEVER been so divided as we are right now, putting black children and communities at great risk.
No one has to believe one word of what I’m saying, all you have to do is OPEN YOUR EYES and look around at the condition of black people collectively and draw your own conclusions.
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If this caste system were based on religion instead of race there would be an easy answer. Conversion. Then it would be a dead issue. Everyone would .know who you were. I remember a Jewish mother-in-law bragging on her daughter-in-law that she kept a more Kosher kitchen than her own daughter. Everybody would know that in the end game, she’d have to wear an armband with a star on it same as everyone else, if it came to that. And the only travelling she’d be allowed would be to a concentration camp.
When I converted to the Serbian Orthodox Church last summer everyone was so tickled. I had voluntarily joined the church that, had I lived in Zagreb in 1941 would have meant that I had to wear a blue armband with a ‘P’ on it, for Pravoslava, (which ironically means True Slav, though the Ustasha think it stands for ‘primitive subhuman.’) so they’d know to round me up for Jasenovac. Needless to say there’s a great deal of respect accorded that rite of passage.
What’s going on here is so unnatural. Everyone clings to the illusion that we have no choice, when in fact we do. And I made it. A very long time ago.
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Linda, when you converted to the Serbian Orthodox church, what were you converting from?
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I had not been religious for many years.
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So you converted from heathen to Serbian Orthodox church?
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Okay, it’s clear there will never be any genuine questions from you. I should not have given you another chance. End of conversation.
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@ Trojan Pam
Black separatism from the greater white collective, not just physically, but also economically and socially speaking? It can be done, but there are many people who’d see that as working backwards – there are many who consider attempted integration into white society as an achievement and voluntarily going back to the separate systems (built from necessity during segregation, mind you) would be a net loss in their columns.
Then you have those who’ve felt as though Black Americans have tried everything in the book – including building their own successful infrastructures, only to see those torn down and taken apart by jealous whites intent on seeing the Negro population with nothing but whatever crumbs they deign to give them. Basically, these people always wanted and still want someone under their heel.
If you want to build a strong, successful system outside of the white sphere, you either do it outside the country or well under the mainstream white radar. In essence, you build informal enclaves that don’t look like much on the outside, but are teeming with economic life on the inside. Black America needs to figure out how to cultivate its own versions of Chinatown – self-contained and self-supported enclaves that draw little serious attention from most.
Black Americans could also use a language barrier, mainly to keep noisy white ears and eyes out. Looking around the immigrant Hispanic and Asian enclaves, most whites have little to no desire to parse or translate the daily banter, leaving a curtain of ignorance between them and the locals.
@ Legion
It takes a genuinely unified people to pull off that level of coordination. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t see it. At least not with these eyes.
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thwack
Love is the answer. Use out without giving up and it will overcome hatred any day. We just need more of it. God bless.”
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Nikki made a true statement. If black people loved each other we wouldn’t be the worlds foremost loser race; an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations of the Earth.
I beg to differ. People the world over of all races are full of self loathing whether this was caused by the perpetual behaviour of other races or some other reason. If ALL races got rid of their self loathing then the human race – the most important race of all, would triumph.
When you talk about the black race being a loser race, where was the ‘love’ being expressed towards sharina from you in the comment you made to her a few posts up? If I were a fly by commenter wishing to see evidence of the negativity within the black race to confirm my own prejudiced viewpoint I would have been rubbing my hands together with glee at the ‘in fighting’ going on.
YOU thwack need to think about what you put out there – in order to get the love, you got to give it too!!
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@ Deb
Sorry I missed one of your posts to me.
I respectfully disagree, we ARE who we sleep with. That doesn’t mean that defines everything we are but it definitely defines where our heads are at that moment. If I am promiscuous and sleep with men who disrespect me or abuse, I cannot say this has nothing to do with my self-respect or my self-esteem or my confusion. Of course it does.
If I have sex for money, that defines where my head is at that moment. Does that define everything about me? Of course not. And if we sleep with a white person who is (more than likely) a racist — and thousands of black people do this every day (and I give many examples of this in my book, “The Interracial Con Game” — ALL real-life examples – that defines where our heads are at that moment and perhaps beyond that moment.
Sex is not some DETACHED physical act, It comes out of our EMOTIONAL and MENTAL state, so of course, it says something about who we are and who we think we are and what we think we deserve.
No one is exempt from their own actions. No one in this kind of self-deceptive, narcisstic society is their “own self” but is a combination of who we wish to be, who we think and say we are and who we ACTUALLY are — and that applies to me as well. If you talk to the average person, their self-perception is usually quite different than the perception other people have of them.
So, we can agree to disagree.
I know quite a few people and some are in my family. That’s why I used the term “usually” and that’s why I usually say “in my experience.” And when I talk to people in IR relationships and people who have family members in an IR relationship, they say they have observed the same thing.
In fact, I talked to a young lady who had a white mother and a black father just a few weeks ago (she had heard me on the COWS program and requested a phone conversation) and she said that was true as well with her mother, who would leave the room whenever the topic of racism came up and that her mother wouldn’t answer her questions.
I don’t qualify everything I say but I do often emphasis that I am posting my opinions. I have YET to see anyone else who is posting their opinions even do that much. We are all posting what we think and you as well have made sweeping generalizations about the black elite but I always assume it is your opinion, not fact, unless it’s backed up by some statistics or links, historical evidence, etc.
There is no need to ask black people about white supremacy. White people are the ones who have the answers. Just ask Halle Berry’s ex who recently was in the news for perming and dying his “b-racial” daughter’s hair blonde and was alleged by a maid to have called his daughter the n-word.
As I said, in my opinion, most black people involved sexually with white people are are dealing with a racist and I base that on things (many things) that these black people have shared (sometimes, inadvertently) with me, — including family members.
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@ Mack Lyons
There is nowhere to hide inside or outside this country. White supremacy is a GLOBAL system and the most dominant system on the planet. Just ask the people in Vietnam, Japan (still a U.S. colony), Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, Haiti, Syria, Palestine, etc.
The only reason Chinatowns exists is Chinese were FORCED into segregating themselves and the only reason they still exist is the whites in power want it that way.
Black people are NOT going to NOT share information with white people. We love showing off what we think and what we do. Don’t be fooled, white people control every Hispanic and Asian enclave in the U.S. and know exactly what is going on. Why do you think the Hispanics had to march for immigration rights? Who were they appealing their case to? Other Hispanics? Of course not.
And the reason Obama signed an executive order had NOTHING to do with Hispanic rights but everything to do with providing more cheap labor, lowering the wages of everyone in the nation, putting more blacks out of work, and providing more soldiers for the upcoming war, and more people signing up for Obamacare.
And that is why I say over and over again, until black people understand the GLOBAL system of white supremacy and how it functions, we will not understand anything else that is going on and whatever suggestions or strategies we create are doomed to failure.
With Abagond’s permission I would like to suggest all visit this site:
blackcodefiles (just add the dot com)
and check out the sound clips by Mr. Neely Fuller, Jr.
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Omnipresent
When you talk about the black race being a loser race, where was the ‘love’ being expressed towards sharina from you in the comment you made to her a few posts up?
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You don’t lie to people if you really love them.
Sharina’s problem is nobody ever loved her enough to tell her the truth; thats why she is impulsive, angry and full of vinegar… basically out of control.
Beauty is the splendor of the truth which is the source of all love; its the logos, the divine order of the universe.
But black people hate the truth, we don’t want to hear it because we want to change everything but ourselves. Thats why we are in the position we are in today; the worlds foremost loser race.
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^^^^ I’m the impulsive, angry, and full of vinegar one yet you can’t help but try to address me at any chance you get. Denial….sweet isn’t it. ROFL!!!
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@Omnipresent
And his continued stalking of me from post to post does not really help his point either, but let him tell it he is the victim being attacked by the person who is basically ignoring him.
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thwack
You don’t lie to people if you really love them.
True but your approach is not constructive – running people down in the name of truth telling doesnt cut it
But black people hate the truth, we don’t want to hear it because we want to change everything but ourselves. Thats why we are in the position we are in today; the worlds foremost loser race
What does black success look like to you thwack? How many of the non black people who come to this blog do you honestly think are susceptible to change?
Biff? Randy? George?
Perhaps you have noticed a change in them already?
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How many of the non black people who come to this blog do you honestly think are susceptible to change?
Biff? Randy? George?
Perhaps you have noticed a change in them already?
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There you go again, trying to get black people to change something other than themselves. You want me to curse gravity, march and protest against birds because they can fly…
Sorry, I don’t have time for that because Im building a balloon and the first phase of construction is being done in my mind, using TOOLS called WORDS.
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Omnipresent
thwack
You don’t lie to people if you really love them.
True but your approach is not constructive – running people down in the name of truth telling doesnt cut it
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“nature keeps a dear school because the fool will learn in no other”
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There you go again, trying to get black people to change something other than themselves. You want me to curse gravity, march and protest against birds because they can fly,/I.
thwack – dont talk sh!te. People cant MAKE people change but they can influence change. It wont matter if black people change in isolation – there has to be a sea of change all round before progress can happen in terms of perception. This is not just restricted to the U.S either. By saying about those commenters I am not saying they should change – I am just pointing out that despite regular interaction with PoC on this very blog, their opinions probably havent changed.
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“There is nowhere to hide inside or outside this country. White supremacy is a GLOBAL system and the most dominant system on the planet. Just ask the people in Vietnam, Japan (still a U.S. colony), Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, Haiti, Syria, Palestine, etc.”
And those same power brokers are quite delighted that you would leave the Second World peoples off that list (former Soviet bloc countries and of course, the Soviets too.) They’ve got cart blanche on us, I guess that’s a new twist on that phrase.
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Linda Keres Carter
“There is nowhere to hide inside or outside this country. White supremacy is a GLOBAL system and the most dominant system on the planet
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Linda, are YOU hiding?
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Why don’t you drop by Friday when all my kids and grandkids are here and you can ask them if they think I’m in deep undercover for the Klan.
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@Linda KC
Lol. I agree with George. Good one!
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Actually, I’ve been worrying about Thwack. Are you okay? Obviously that plate glass incident was traumatizing, but I’m hoping there wasn’t any permanent physical damage.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
It is no secret that I do not include the injustices committed against white tribes when I’m talking about WHITE SUPREMACY.
White tribes may battle each other over turf and white privileges — “Hey, I’m more white than you!” —
but they ALL PRACTICE RACISM/WHITE SUPREMACY AS WHITE PEOPLE when it comes to BLACK (and non-white) PEOPLE — NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE.
And that is why it is problematic for me that ANY TIME black people talk about our experiences under the system of white supremacy that white people start talking about their mistreatment.
I’m not invalidating your people’s experiences, I don’t know anything about them, but let me ask you this:
Whenever your “people” are outraged about the injustices they’ve experienced do they EVER include black and African people in that dialogue?
I doubt it.
Then why are black people expected to include everyone else when we talk about the injustices we experience? We have the right and the obligation to focus on our families and communities the same as everyone else on the planet does — and I will continue to do so.
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Linda Keres Carter has failed to answer two questions:
1. Are you now or have you ever classified yourself “white person?”
2. Do you know if you are a white person?
That 2nd question is devastating because IF YOU DON’T KNOW IF YOU ARE A WHITE PERSON,
You have no business making comments about race to black people.
You disqualify yourself with your silence; but worse than that, you make yourself a racist suspect.
It doesn’t have to be this way Linda.
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“but they ALL PRACTICE RACISM/WHITE SUPREMACY AS WHITE PEOPLE when it comes to BLACK (and non-white) PEOPLE — NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE.”
How could we be practicing supremacy while colonized by the Middle East? (BTW, never include Turks in the list of disenfranchised people of color. They are inveterate supremacist, imperialistic genociders from way back. Still at it.) We have not yet recovered from that, psychologically, or economically, or politically.
“Whenever your “people” are outraged about the injustices they’ve experienced do they EVER include black and African people in that dialogue?”
That’s one of the things that’s been striking in my research. The analogy often arises. It’s not just me. I keep hearing it. It blows me away. About one in ten people I’ve met who are fresh from the homeland have voiced it explicitly, while the other nine in the room know what we’re talking about. In the historical record you’ll find people like Gojko Nikoliš (one of two famous sons from my grandma’s village) several times trying to explain to the world who we are by drawing an analogy to colonized Africans or Indians or Blacks in Diaspora. And I’ve only been able to translate a tiny bit of what he wrote.
The other famous son might be a cousin of mine. He was persecuted to death for trying to implement a completely phonetic alphabet just like the one Sequoia, in the same time frame, was developing here for the Cherokee, for exactly the same reason, to bring literacy quickly to an exploited minority.
Our position is so desperate. We know no one will ever see or care about us. Just look at how the US got away with putting the minority Serbs in Croatia into extinction. By calling us fascists (one of those really big lies). The real reason is that we’re the biggest PITA’s fascists have ever known, sitting at the juncture of East and West, and the Fourth Reich had to get us out of the way ASAP.
I keep saying this because if at least someone here could identify with us and understand who we are and what’s coming down on us, we might be safer in the world. But everyone here sees things in terms of black and white, and in that light, we disappear. And the real white people can do whatever lethal thing they want to us.
The other reason I keep saying this is that white people in America relentlessly and pervasively traumatized me as a young woman, treating me like a pervert because Black people were more familiar to me and easier to love than they were. I’ll never get over that. Never forgive it. Never trust them. And when Black people hate me or dismiss me or stereotype me or vent on me as ‘white’ it makes me crazy, and breaks my heart.
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1. Are you now or have you ever classified yourself “white person?”
2. Do you know if you are a white person?
First you need to define what you mean by a “white peron.”
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I doubt very few things will ever protect you from racism. All of my family photos look like that. Cops can be very intimidating to kids and confusing mixed with the fact that if you make one mistake your parents have already informed you how dead you can get.
However, being elite black is like swimming with a fabric swim cap and expecting your hair to stay dry.
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Linda Keres Carter
First you need to define what you mean by a “white person.”
————————————————————————————————-
Linda, the first rule of getting yourself out of a hole is to stop digging.
Do you all see how slick she is?
Im very tempted to classify her as a white person based on this sophisticated response alone?
Pay attention people because we are getting into advanced counter racism code.
Linda may be slick, but Im the “Marvin Hagler” of counter racism;
watch this:
Linda, are your children white persons?
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In any debate you must first define your terms. That’s not sophisticated. That’s basic common courtesy and common sense.
Ways I am White:
During my marriage, when it was time to rent housing I would go meet the landlord.
I could drive on an expired license for several years without knowing it because the cops never stop someone who looks like me.
I can apply for a job not worrying that they’ll racially profile me. But I can’t keep a job if I let them know about my family life. I gave up working in companies years ago. I only freelance and keep my business relationships impersonal.
Ways it doesn’t quite fit the details:
In the last 45 years, most of that time I’ve been the only White person in the room. How White is that?
I’ve been fired repeatedly, chased, insulted, shunned, ostracized, tormented, groped, physically threatened and humiliated by White people because of my commitments to the Black people in my life and the ways I would not conform to their ideas on how I should behave as a White person. How White is that?
If you haven’t heard other White women similarly allied complain about these things, it’s because no one listens to us, and when we talk about it it just gives someone in the room an occasion to make further attacks.
Leave my children out of this.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
who said: “How could we be practicing supremacy while colonized by the Middle East?”
—
Do you live in the U.S. and do you function as a white person, meaning do other white people see you as a white person? If the answer is yes to all the above then it would be easy for you to practice racism/white supremacy.
There are many white people who claim to be more ‘comfortable” with black people and who seek out black people for comfort and sex but that does not mean they are not racists.
I would also suggest that to have an ally, one should first BE an ally.
and from where I sit or stand, I have not seen ONE ethnic group, including any white tribes, who have, aligned themselves with the plight of black or African people in any meaningful way or have stood with us against racism as representatives of that group.
That being said, all my attention and energies will remain focused on my OWN people as they are the most victimized people in the U.S. and need and deserve the most help
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@LKC
That is still very much White.
Facing ostracism from Whites for being a “Negro lover” does in no way make one any less White. It makes being White even more salient.
In addition to facing ostracism from whites for challenging their ideas about Blacks, as well as seeking emotional and physical comfort with Blacks, you would have to give up whiteness. I mean totally give it up. And if you retain your Serbian identity (as you claim you do), which is still possible even if you give up whiteness, then you have to actively convince your fellow Serbians to stand shoulder to shoulder to combat the racism that Blacks or other POC face from whites.
Nothing of anything you mentioned indicated that you gave up whiteness and aligned yourself and your fellow ethnic members with blacks or nonwhite Americans. Nothing.
I have some personal experience to insert here. My mother grew up as a white woman during Jim Crow in the Deep South. She committed the ultimate sin in her parents’ eyes, marrying a Chinese American (which she did because of an unplanned pregnancy while abortions were still illegal). Her parents never let her move back in with them even after repeatedly breaking up with her husband. Besides, her marriage was still illegal in 22 states and they were forced to live in Washington, DC (where it was legal). Still, they could not find housing. All the following applied to my mother:
Looks like to me that she matched you about 98%.
I listened to that rhetoric my entire life. How about that?
But I eventually learned that my mother would not be anything except White, even after being partially ostracized by her family. She was, very much, a believer in the White view of non-whites, eg, in the theory of Respectability Politics model to handle race relations. She also acted in ways that supported the White Supremacist position in US society. For example, in the housing rental matter above, she recognized that she could play her White Race card (ie, exploited her White Privilege position) to get certain things done, and did not challenge or upset the White Supremacist structure of US society during the whole time. (That is no different from what you did.) In fact, my parents divorced, in part, I believe, because her belief in the naturalness of White Supremacist society brought strains to the marriage.
OK, compared to most White people in America, you have less stereotypes about Blacks, and you have to defend yourself against Whites all the time for your relationships with non-whites. But unless you are willing to give up your whiteness (really give it up) and stand side by side Blacks or other non-whites to challenge or upset the White Supremacist structure of society (the one you currently live in, not the ones in the Middle East), then you are still complacent and supportive of the White Supremacist structure of the USA, and still, yes, White.
P.S., pls ignore that Tw@ck.
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“Do you live in the U.S. and do you function as a white person, meaning do other white people see you as a white person?”
See my answer to Thwack above. They see me as White, then when they see my personal life, or find out how I think, they ostracize or persecute me as an aberrant White.
“and from where I sit or stand, I have not seen ONE ethnic group, including any white tribes, who have, aligned themselves with the plight of black or African people in any meaningful way or have stood with us against racism as representatives of that group.”
We are in far too desperate a plight in Europe to be able to come to anyone’s rescue. Although, I did hear a story that Japan was flabbergasted to see that we were the first country to come to their aid with donations after the earthquake / hurricane when they also saw how poor we are. One of the countries we are most closely allied with economically and socially is Korea. I noticed that language classes at Belgrade University were slanted towards them. There are no derogatory words in the Serbian language for Black or African people. Black Americans who travel there are overwhelmed by the warmth of the welcome given them.
You have to understand that people in Serbia will see Black Americans as far more powerful, wealthy and influential than they are. American media, which attempts to culturally colonize the world, makes it appear that America is post-racial. They’re shocked to come here and see how it really is. Black cultural forms, like music and dress, are used to indoctrinate the young to assent to American dominance. If you really took in how it is being used, it would make you sick. Obama’s pro military stance has not endeared him to Second World people who are surrounded by a multitude of US military bases and a diplomatic regime that readily supports right-wing fascists to overthrow their popularly elected governments. In the end, the greatest threat to Black American survival may be the way it is perceived around the world as co-opting with American aggression.
The color scheme works in reverse in odd ways. Having been enslaved and raped by the Turks for centuries, when we have Turkish features, sure enough we’re proud of them and think they make us good looking. It’s that ‘color-struck’ phenomena. American actresses who most display Serbian ideals for female beauty are Angelina Jolie and Halie Berry. One Black girl from San Francisco who spent a summer in Serbia was shocked when a Serbian girl complemented her on her dark complexion and said something self-deprecating about her own.
For individuals expressing commitment and support you can look at B. Wongar, aka Sreten Božič. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Wongar. If that link is stripped, just google his names.
From where you sit,you will never see anything accurate about us. US media is incredibly propagandized.
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@LKC,
re:
I think TP’s question was referring to your current personal position in the USA, esp. after marriage / relationships with Black Americans, not the historical position of Serbs in Europe.
Given that history of oppression of your ancestors in Europe, then you should be in a much better position to psychologically align with those who challenge or try to overturn the White Supremacist structure in US society. But it seems like you have never done that. If anything, your actions have supported it and you even exploit it when it behooves you.
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@ Linda
who said: “You have to understand that people in Serbia will see Black Americans as far more powerful, wealthy and influential than they are. American media, which attempts to culturally colonize the world, makes it appear that America is post-racial. They’re shocked to come here and see how it really is.”
—
and once they see how it really is, do they join forces with blacks? Do they protest the mistreatment of black people? Do they speak out? Do they rally by our side? Do they consider blacks their allies?
My question is WHY would someone who SEES that I am being horribly mistreated remain SILENT if they can “relate” to me AND if they do remain silent why would they ever think for one second that I would consider them my ally — or that I would involve myself in their issues?
I don’t want to see anyone mistreated but black people have been USED by white and other non-black people LONG ENOUGH.
They have stolen our culture and given us no credit, they have imitated us and yet look down on us at the same time. They stayed on the sidelines, silent while they benefit from the civil rights battles WE FOUGHT, we died over, we got beaten, and bitten (by dogs) for, and lynched and fire-hosed for, and our churches bombed so when the immigrants come here (be they honorary white or not) they can stay in a hotel or attend the university of their choice or eat in any restaurant or use any restroom.
We have DONE ENOUGH for everyone else and still, we stand alone as we are murdered in the streets. (other than some random whites whose motives are often suspect as they use the issues for their own political agendas)
I have NEVER heard of a single “Serbian” organization joining forces with ours to fight for justice so what the heck do you expect from us regarding your people? Seriously…
———–
Then you said: “In the end, the greatest threat to Black American survival may be the way it is perceived around the world as co-opting with American aggression.”
———
I vigorously disagree. I give non-white people outside this country a lot more credit than that. Many know that Obama is a puppet of the white supremacists. They don’t blame the rank and file black person for what white people (including honorary white people) are doing to them.
The greatest threat to black survival is white supremacy AKA white people collectively AND those who function as white, who BENEFIT from our oppression, and attempt to deceive us into thinking it is not so.
Actually, I looked up the n-word in the Serbian language and came up with this:
ni**ger (n.)
crnja, crn, црнац, црнкиња, crnac
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“But unless you are willing to give up your whiteness (really give it up) and stand side by side Blacks or other non-whites to challenge or upset the White Supremacist structure of society (the one you currently live in, not the ones in the Middle East), then you are still complacent and supportive of the White Supremacist structure of the USA, and still, yes, White.”
How does one give it up? I tell you, I could gut myself in doing all that AND NO ONE OF COLOR WOULD EVEN NOTICE. I could have been doing exactly that for decades AND NO ONE OF COLOR WOULD EVEN NOTICE. They will still see me as White and vent their anger however they please. And honestly speaking, if that doesn’t improve, I WON’T live here any more. I’ve had enough. However dangerous or impoverished it may be to live elsewhere, I’ve had enough.
You all won’t LET ME give it up. You all don’t want me to. I’m too useful as a scapegoat or an object. As Thwack has so abundantly demonstrated. No I won’t ignore Thwack. He’s being honest and direct. I could spend decades with someone, and live my life for him only to discover, I’m just there for him to Thwack.
I will NEVER be taken for an equal. At least he’s up front about it.
The ONLY way I can be relieved of my Whiteness, is to give up my American-ness, because in America someone who looks like me is ALWAYS perceived as White by people of color. It makes absolutely no difference what I do or really am. Prove me wrong. SOMEBODY prove me wrong. The clock is ticking. I’m not waiting much longer. Forty-five years living on what the world thinks is the wrong side of the color line is long enough.
You know NOTHING about how I’ve lived my life, or what I’ve dedicated myself to politically or socially but you ASSUME I’m living like what you assume a White person to be. And your assumptions rule. I am so utterly outnumbered in the world I live in, no one needs to accommodate me at all.
I need another world.
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@ LKC
Thwack is a troll.
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“Actually, I looked up the n-word in the Serbian language and came up with this:
ni**ger (n.)
crnja, crn, црнац, црнкиња, crnac”
Uh huh. That’s what I mean. You will trust Google translate instead of what we tell you. It’s riddled with definitions that distort us and it’s so easy to do. Take one of our lyrics talking about the loneliness of an exploited migrant worker, whose life is bleak and loveless in a foreign land and Google translate turns it into “Black foreigners ripping me off.”
But you will believe what you want to believe. In the Nineties people were passing some old, beloved brand of Serbian candy out to children at Halloween to make us look like fascists. The name for it uses a word that does not refer to any person or group of people in our language — Negro candy. Licorice.
Wiki is filled with incredible lies about us. There’s an army of people who, if we post anything to correct a lie, will immediately post something on top of it to change it back. They have a lot more money than us, and if we try to keep up with it, we will be overwhelmed.
Somebody did some study and revealed us to be the saddest people in the world. I wonder why.
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“Thwack is a troll.”
If you thought that, why is he posting?
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“She had been fired, chased, insulted, shunned, ostracized, tormented, groped, physically threatened and humiliated by White people because of her commitments to the non-white people in her life and the ways she would not conform to their ideas on how she should behave as a White person.”
And it doesn’t sound like you cared at all. Your own mother, and she’s still just White to you.
Let me guess, did she suffer with depression?
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““She had been fired, chased, insulted, shunned, ostracized, tormented, groped, physically threatened and humiliated by White people because of her commitments to the non-white people in her life and the ways she would not conform to their ideas on how she should behave as a White person.”
I just want to know, when will anyone ever respect or appreciate any of that? Or has it just been a horrible, meaningless waste of heart? None of that matters at all, does it? It’s meaningless and unimportant.
That’s the real deal of how I feel. Nothing I do will ever be noticed, will ever be enough, will ever do any good. And that’s the real reason most white people avoid you all. And why they think I’m a fool.
And now Thwack will appear and declare that I’ve been proven racist, and that will be the last word on the thread.
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@ jefe
You’re right, I was as referring to her current personal position in the USA, esp. after marriage / relationships with Black Americans, not the historical position of Serbs in Europe.
again, why this insistence on Serbian history on a topic about black elites experiencing racism? And I’ll address that question to Linda:
of course, you have the right to post whatever you choose but why is almost everything you’re posting about your people? what are black people supposed to do with that information?
Are you saying we’d be welcome in the Serbian community? That we would be free to join your religious and political organizations and bring OUR plight to your people’s attention?
I’m not accusing you of this, but I have run into this kind of thing many, many times with white people who come to my blog and try to REDIRECT the topic of
white racism into how much they’re suffering and I’m really put off by it,
especially when they’re bringing it to people (like me) who have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it AND when I know they really have NO involvement in the plight of my people.
It’s a little strange, that’s what I’m saying
unless it’s a way of saying white comes first
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@LKC,
I did not say give up being a white person as someone who is primarily of European descent and passing as “white”. I mean giving up Whiteness, which is an ideology that has its roots in white supremacy. There is a huge difference between the two. Do you understand it? If not, maybe you can consider taking a course or reading some books to learn more about the concept of whiteness in America.
It seems that you have confused being “white” and espousing whiteness as interchangeable. That is mistaken. They are two completely different things. At this point, if you want to try to ally with nonwhites in their navigation in US society, you have to first learn, study and understand what is meant by “whiteness” in America. Then you have to give it up. It has NOTHING to do with the racial grouping that whites or blacks might classify you as.
I cared very very deeply about my mother and was very close to her. I listened to her and learned about every intricacy of her plights of navigating life as a white person while married to a non-white and tried my best to empathize with her. Besides, the family that treated her badly for it was my family too. I wanted more than anything to have a good relationship with them.
Most of my mother’s close friends were non-white. Her funeral was the most racially diverse one I have ever attended in my life – maybe 35% black and 35% Asian and 10% Hispanic. That is a lot for a white person.
It took me until I was in my late teens before I realized what constituted the problems that I had with my mother on various viewpoints, eg,
– America is a “white” country, so we all need to conform to the White Anglo Saxon Protestant way of seeing, doing and behaving.
– the proper ideology for nonwhites to follow is “Respectable Politics”
– it is natural for the USA to exercise White privilege, because, after all, Whites are the majority and run the show
– She recognized “white privilege” (unlike most Whites who deny it), lost a good deal of it marrying my father, and thought it was not fair, but nevertheless, she exploited it whenever it behooved her to do so.
– She had a “proper” upbringing, as opposed to Blacks and Asians, who had defects in the way they raised their children and families.
Her advice to me did not help me with the problems I was facing. Some of the White Anglo protestant values she was pushing on me made it worse. For my psychological well-being, I had to decide which I could accept and which I could not. And the “naturalness” of that whole white supremacist ideology structure is one that I had to give up.
Given all that, she never objected to any group I hung with or anyone I might have considered dating.
I still maintained very close ties with my mother, talked to her every week, lent her money when she needed it and she was always welcome to stay with me and meet and know all of my friends, neighbors and colleagues. And my mother was very close to me. On her death bed, she even stayed alive just long enough for me to be with her when she died. The day before she died, she told me that all that happened was not my fault. With that I realized that she knew I grew up with a lot of 5h1t due to her choices, but I did not cause the problems. That meant a lot to me.
So, no, my mother was not just “White” to me. She was my mother. But, despite all she went through, she held steadfastly to her whiteness. I think it would have been better for ME and perhaps for her marriage, if she had given it up, but I understand why she felt compelled to hold on to it. Anyhow, my brother was very much aligned with the whiteness ideology thing, and my father passively supported it, so I did not have a lot of support there. My father, starting in his late 40s and even more into his 50s, started to become less wedded to the ideology of whiteness and began to re-explore his relationship to society and his history under lenses other than the whiteness lens. I think I had a role in that, and it also became easier for him to consider that after his separation and divorce.
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@ Linda
I was curious so I looked it up. I realize there’s a lot of erroneous info on the Internet so I’ll leave that alone.
However, if Serbian people in the U.S. are passing for white, it is very difficult for me to believe that they have never uttered the n-word or do not have some preconceived notions and prejudices about black people here.
In fact, other non-white groups have their own preconceived notions about blacks in the U.S, including blacks born outside the U.S. and freely use the n-word to describe us.
In any case, the world is what it is. Black people have enough work to do, we cannot take on and should not take on any other people’s burdens UNLESS those people have proven themselves to be our allies, and I can’t think of a single ethnic group that fits that description.
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@LKC,
It seems to me that your motivation for doing what you have done is off – by more than a few degrees.
If being a DECENT human being requires you to FEEL respected, appreciated, noticed, important from the people you say you are trying to help – and you’re not getting what you need, then that’s solely on YOU. Do something else!
If you are caring for others because it’s the right thing to do, why must the ones you’re trying to help ADORE you? Shouldn’t you do the right thing just for the sake of the doing the right thing without thought of reward or compensation? If reward or compensation does come, my experiences in life suggest that they most often come from other sources, and not usually or normally from the ones you’ve specifically helped.
Are you some sort of white savior with an adoration complex? People are wary/suspect of those who toot their own horns or wave their own flags and banners.
White women whining comes off as just as irritating as white women’s tears!
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@LKC,
OK,
I respect and appreciate your personal narrative and all that you have gone through.
It has not been a horrible, meaningless waste of heart.
It does matter.
It is not meaningless and unimportant.
You are not a fool.
I hope that clears it up.
But, that experience, as enlightening as it is, is not enough. It is not enough to become an ally to the plight of nonwhite people in white supremacist America. For that, you have to give up, forsaken, abandon, even denounce whiteness as an ideology. Blacks who espouse whiteness also are not doing anything to challenge the white supremacist nature and structure of US society either (eg, the case study discussed in this very post).
If you want your experience to be noticed, and for it to do any good, and to be ENOUGH, then you have to discard the whiteness ideology, ie, give up whiteness. If not, then you are fortifying the white supremacist structure of society, not dismantling it.
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@Just ME (to Linda)
I didn’t say that, and I wouldn’t use those words, but I think you also brought up a point.
There is an element of the white saviour mentality here. After being a martyr for oppression and suffering years, even decades of ill treatment from whites for choices made to associate with nonwhites, she is in a prime position to emerge as a white saviour, just like the protagonist in the movie “The Help” who is there to help all the helpless d@rk1es who cannot help themselves. After all, she knows how white think and all the stories from the colored folks. She is in the best position to “help” them.
Except, she doesn’t. Well, not really.
There is a difference between white saviour and white ally. The first is a recurrent them in white liberal ideology, and leaves white supremacist ideology entirely intact. The 2nd is an oxymoron, as one needs to give up whiteness first.
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@LKC,
If you gave up whiteness, people would notice. They will let you know when it happens.
In fact, in the early to mid 20th century, some Jews were able to became allies with blacks because they were willing to give up their whiteness. And they did not have to marry blacks to do it (although some did).
But, after the civil rights movement, most Jews took back their whiteness. I guess they found it too valuable.
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@Linda KC
I recommend responding and engaging those that are serious, but cut off all talk with thwack because he is simply a troll. Why Abagond keeps him around is anyone’s guess, but thwack does nothing but look for reasons to attack women.
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@ Trojan Pam
Jews in Germany had the highest rate of intermarriage with non-Jewish Germans before the Holocaust occurred. A Jewish German psychologist alive during that era wrote that the Jews lacked self-respect because they were so strongly identified with Germans that they thought they were German and that’s the reason they perished.
Hey Pam. What book was it again where you got that piece of information? 🙂
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@ Jefe
LOL.
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@ LKC
I try to keep my comment policy as loose as possible to allow freedom of opinion, so there are always one to five trolls trolling about.
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@ LKC
My philosophy on trolls:
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Linda Keres Carter
. And that’s the real reason most white people avoid you all. And why they think I’m a fool.
And now Thwack will appear and declare that I’ve been proven racist, and that will be the last word on the thread.
————————————————————————————————
For purposes of clarity lets review the questions Linda has refused to answer:
1. Are you now or have you ever classified yourself “white person?”
2. Do you know if you are a white person?
3. Are your children white persons?
So which is worse?
That she does not know?
or that she knows but won’t tell us?
All you people do is whine and cry about abuse and mistreatment at the hands of white people, yet when I try to find out who the white people are I come under attack from nonwhite people?
Maybe we deserve abuse and mistreatment?
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Linda Keres Carter
“Thwack is a troll.”
If you thought that, why is he posting?
————————————————————————————————–
The crowd was adamant. There was the smell of blood in the air. They called for Jesus crucifixion, the terrible method of execution for traitors used by the Romans. Pilate reminded the multitude that he could release a prisoner of their choice, since it was Passover, and such commutations were the custom. Pilate did not get the answer he expected. The crowd called for the release of Barabbas, a prisoner who had been charged with murder during an insurrection. Still not convinced that Jesus must die, Pilate had him taken away and whipped. He hoped that would satisfy the crowd.
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@LKC: You are coming across to me like one of those white women with a “White Woman’s Tears ” complex and it’s kind of annoying. You might want to give that some thought.
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@MB,
Better give her the link so she doesn’t have to search for it
and the relevant parts:
White people and their feelings are the centre of the known universe.
and
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“If you gave up whiteness, people would notice. They will let you know when it happens.”
Some do. Very few. You could make that abundantly clear to everyone around you, for many years, and all you’d need to do is be good at something, accomplish something and most of the people around you will read into it that you’re doing it to prove you’re better. People you thought were your friends, who cared about you. If they were your friends they’d be patting you on the back, proud of you, celebrating your accomplishment. Instead, you’d just have knives to pull out of your back from people insisting that you stay in your place.
I was an orphan of another storm, looking for shelter. Why do I keep talking about that storm? I want to know if anybody will ever care about it as much as I’ve cared about theirs. But that’s my frozen need. You don’t have to tell me what yours are. They’ve been freezing me out for years.
I surrounded myself with the people most familiar, but they’ll always just see me as different.
I have to move on. And that’s very hard. A part of me gets left behind. My heart. I didn’t know who I was, and I thought that’s who they were. A little girl’s confusion, but it’s imprinted and won’t ever really go away. And will always reinforce the traumas of being genocided. I didn’t feel I was better. I just wanted to feel as good. I wasn’t looking to be a savior. I was looking to be saved.
My tears will always just be seen as those of a white woman, not those of someone escaping extermination with no sense of herself. But that is what the world is telling you as emphatically as it can. You’re nothing at all. Vermin.
Seeing me as white is colluding with genocide. That’s how it’s always felt, and how it always will feel. Like a betrayal. I’ll be told to shut up with my persecution complex. Why in the world would people like us feel persecuted? I need to just shut up and be white and accept that we were forced to surrender to our enemies, the white people, who have sent us into oblivion.
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@LKC,
You are still light years away from giving up your whiteness. I think when you do, many, if not most will notice.
As long as you make it about your feelings about how whites treat you about your choices, you are not there.
I understand there are classes or courses on whiteness studies. Maybe you can check out your nearby university.
Or maybe we can suggest some books to read.
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As long as you make it about your feelings about how whites treat you about your choices, you are not there.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. For 43 years it was NEVER about me. Never about my feelings. I was always dead last absorbing myself in what everyone else was feeling. You still think you’re talking to someone White. I was never White. I was a throwback Srpkinja who thought Black people were the Serbs ’cause that was the closest I could find.
I can’t give up something I never had.
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LKC: Madame, firstly i am sorry for what you went through. But with that being said, your experience has “NOTHING” to do with this thread topic. It is just deflecting, and derailing. I am so annoyed reading your postings. This is not about your experience.
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No, and there will never be anywhere for me to talk about my experience.
And this will never be anything but a country full of Americans who think they have the right to define other people.
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If you’ll look at my initial post in this thread I was sharing how my experience last week with white racists reminded me of the family being discussed. From there I was attacked as having no right to my opinion, with no right to define myself.
How American.
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@ Linda
I suggest you go back and read your postings. It is ALL ABOUT YOU, it is very self-involved and sounds very narcisstic. I doubt you would post like this on a white blog because they would shut you down.
And that is why I find some white people gravitate toward black people (and black spouses) because they are easier to manipulate and control (or so they think).
And that is why it’s important for BLACK PEOPLE to understand racism/white supremacy and how it works and especially how the most REFINED RACISTS work.
They will ALWAYS use their “whiteness” against us, to deceive us (refuse to answer SIMPLE questions), to manipulate us (making themselves the CENTER of the conversation), and to basically DERAIL us from any MEANINGFUL discussion about racism
they are often the ones who seek out “relationships” with us and that is a PRIMARY reason I am against black people engaging in sex with white people, especially refined racist white people,
because by the time they are through with you, your head is SPINNING like a top! You will be totally confused and you will think the world should rightfully revolved around white people ad infinitum (more like ad nauseous). and white ideology–which for the most part involves justifying racism and the mistreatment of black people or other white people, like bombing non-white nations, oppressing black people and all kinds of HUMAN atrocities — as long as it doesn’t happen to white people.
I have SEEN this over and over again (and I could care less who challenges me) — H, I have seen ti dozens of times on Abagond’s blog alone, a white person coming in and REDIRECTING the conversation away from black people.
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@ Linda (continued)
In fact, this thread is a great example! And one I am going to use on my blogs and conversations to show how refined racism really works! And it is easy for anyone to fall into the trap because black people are a sympathetic people — especially when it comes to white people — and look how long we have tolerated and tried to communicate with you, Linda, who (if you look back at your posts) who has mostly been about YOU and YOUR SUFFERING — at the hands of white people
WHILE you are still functioning AS a white person which means YOU are being treated 100 PERCENT better than any black or non-white person reading this blog — and you come here asking for SYMPATHY from us?
Why aren’t you saying all that you have said on a WHITE BLOG to the white people you say are oppressing your people? My money says you haven’t and NEVER WILL. Why? Because you can’t manipulate them.
It reminds me of something a very knowledgeable counter-racist gentlemen told me yesterday. He was talking to a young female with a white mother and a black parent and she told him that while she and her (black) father were watching TV and listening to the Michael Brown verdict, her white mother came into the room and started talking about nothing, trying to DISTRACT them from hearing the news and when that didn’t work, she sat on the sofa and started making out with her husband.
Because that young (bi-racial) female had a better UNDERSTANDING of racism and how white people practice it, she understood what her mother was doing – and I have found this is often the case with white people and especially refined racist white people. — DERAIL, CONFUSE, DENY, AVOID.
And that, (black) folks is how they keep the system going by making it appear that only some white people function as racists — when IN FACT, nearly all are busy little foot soldiers at work to keep their system of WHITE PRIVILEGE and WHITE DENIAL smoothly functioning
I will NEVER, EVER be in favor of black people being SUCKED IN by these relationships because as long as we do AND do not understand how white people practice racism in ALL its forms, we will forever be subordinate and oppressed by them.
Thanks, Linda, for giving me even more ammunition in my fight to EDUCATE and INFORM other black people. Peace!
—
PS — I agree with Thwack when it comes to you refusing to answer ONE SIMPLE QUESTION, the same way I could answer it
“Yes, Trojan Pam is a black person.” see how easy that was?
And I’d add, YES, Linda is DEFINITELY functioning as a white person and is on this blog practicing a VERY REFINED FORM of racism/white supremacy.
Linda — thanks for helping to educate everyone on this blog who cares to be educated
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@ Legion
I don’t have that info memorized but if it’s important to you you could check back over Abagond’s blogs and see if you can find it. 🙂
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c’mon, no one did that. If someone tells you derailed a topic to make it all about you, it does not mean you are being attacked.
Better stop there, I see tears coming and we know what that means.
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Yes, America who bombed us into the 19th century, bombing our hospitals, our factories, our infrastructure, in order to force us into your Manifest Destiny of a global economy. Bombing us with dirty bombs that will be killing us for the next half a billion years. And who was the Chief of Staff issuing these orders? An American. And who is the Head of State now ruling us, your colony. your slaves? An American. Every single one of you BENEFITS from this enslavement. Everything you have is derived from it. Different day, same story.
But you will as arrogantly as any other Americans feel you have the right to tell me who I am and how I feel and how I experience life.
There is no peace.
Someday these chickens will come home to roost.
I have answered your question over and over and over again. I am not a white American. I am a Serb. The two terms are as mutually exclusive as it is possible to be. I was NEVER loyal to this tip and I never will be. It is far too compromised. Far to corrupt. Everyone’s hands are dirty and we’re the ones defiled by it. But you will never see your responsibility in this because you are far too complicit in it.
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Oh, I’m done crying. I didn’t make this topic all about me. Thwack did, and you all jumped and it like flies on ____.
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@Linda KC
That is precisely why I said to stop giving thwack even half of your time. He uses any and everyone for his sick purposes.
Aside from that I get where you are coming from and I do not wish to be on the attacking end, but I highly recommend white women’s tears thread as it is very eye opening and it is one I recommended to another poster this very week. It will help you understand the beginning and end of perhaps things you may not realize. Your experience may very well be similar but not the same.
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“Oh, I’m done crying. I didn’t make this topic all about me. Thwack did, and you all jumped and it like flies on ____.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You know, you come across exactly like THE typical deluded white person.
Your very first post on this thread is ALL ABOUT YOU…
Apparently some sort of serious mental/emotional selective vision defect has adulterated your sight, preventing you from seeing what most of us here…
Tue 18 Nov 2014 at 02:38:15
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“Linda Keres Carter @ No, and there will never be anywhere for me to talk about my experience.
And this will never be anything but a country full of Americans who think they have the right to define other people.”
Linda says,
Linda KC, don’t feel bad chica… it’s not really you or just you.
I’m a Jamaican (aka foreign black/brown, non-American) and trust, anytime we discuss topics/ issues that deal with black or brown people who are not American, you could hear crickets in the room
I got called “anti-black American” by another poster because she couldn’t handle what I was saying because I’m a “foreign black” person
Some people want to stick their heads in the sand when it’s time to talk about intra-racial issues that affect ALL African descended people
especially when it comes time to talk about how black people deal with each other in America or about issues between foreign black/brown people and black Americans.
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@ Linda
Next phase (when the targets begin to unravel the deception) is always
GUILT
You come on this blog, blaming thwack for making it about you. No, YOU DID. You wrote your OWN comments, not thwack, not me, not anyone else.
Even in response to me, it was the same old saw — my people, my suffering, how I suffered, etc – ALL OFF TOPIC and irrelevant to the “black people” and “black elites”
and that is what white people do time and time and time again, the world MUST revolve around them — even though they cause all their OWN problems and the problems of everyone else non-white on the planet.
and now you have the audacity (and yes, it’s a strong word but it fits) to tell the BIGGEST VICTIMS IN AMERICA, the people who suffered under 500 years of chattel slavery and oppression that we are “complicit” in your oppression?
—
(aside to everyone)
She is no more interested in our struggle than the man on the moon. she is no more understanding of our struggle than the man on the moon and even he might be more interested and understanding since he has no dog in the fight
—
Linda, I truly feel sorry for ANY black person within your area of psychological contamination and gross manipulation and that includes any black person close to you.
If that offends, so be it, because you will have the REAL victims of white supremacy hanging their heads in guilt and that should NEVER be acceptable to ANY black person with a working brain and a true desire for justice.
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I am done with people who will stereotype my feelings to suit their own agenda. Do you have any idea how offensive a ‘white’ woman’s tears thread is to me? I AM NOT A WHITE WOMAN. I am not going to let anyone anywhere near me who has the need to see me as one. It will always be used to make a slave of me.
Better a grave than a slave. That was our tune when we were saving your a$$es from Hitler. We’re still digging out from that. And you’re still exploiting it.
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While LKC is still shedding some tears, can someone explain to me what she meant by
followed by
What was the colour line that she crossed? No wonder I am confused.
And I don’t know how it is connected to the topic of this post.
Nor this
What does that have to do with how wealthy black parents try to shield their kids from racism?
Oh, it is all tw@ck’s fault.
We told her not to pay attention to him.
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@Linda
I think a lot of people can’t handle what you are saying. 😉
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“Linda Keres Carter,
You have to understand that people in Serbia will see Black Americans as far more powerful, wealthy and influential than they are. American media, which attempts to culturally colonize the world, makes it appear that America is post-racial. They’re shocked to come here and see how it really is. Black cultural forms, like music and dress, are used to indoctrinate the young to assent to American dominance.”
Linda says,
Linda KC, I lived in Europe for quite awhile, so trust, I TRULY get what you are talking about concerning Serbs but as TPam mentioned, that is a topic that is best discussed on its own terms.
What I do when I want to talk about issues that affect the Caribbean or Africa, I go to a past post because posts dealing dealing with foreign black/black non- American issues, get the least amount of traffic.
here’s a post on Turkey that you could use to discuss issues about Serbia history, since the Ottoman Empire played a huge role in your history:
As you say, many other oppressed white Ethnicity minority groups actually do Respect and Look up to the black American struggle of the 1960s and black American culture (such as the northern Irish)
but unfortunately, for many black Americans (especially the people who don’t travel) they don’t realize this or how they are perceived outside of the USA.
Outside of America, depending on the country, black Americans do get to use their “white American privilege” passport…but only up to a point,
because as you well know, Europeans are xenophobic and racist and while they may admire black people, they also believe black people are inferior to them.
sidenote:
When I lived in Germany, my neighbors in a small town thought I was “north African/Arab” and treated me like sh’t
but they were all smiles and giggles with the black American students. Once I told them I was Jamaican, then it was like night and day– “ohh, Bob Marley, we love Jamaicans… yada yada blah blah”
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Sharina, do you mean me (Linda) or Linda KC?
If it’s me (Linda), then I want to know why not… what’s the problem?
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@Linda Keres Carter
“I AM NOT A WHITE WOMAN. I am not going to let anyone anywhere near me who has the need to see me as one. It will always be used to make a slave of me.”—-Well I did not know you were not a white woman, but I also can tell you that I don’t feel it just applies to “white” women. It applies to a behavior or mindset to me, but if you feel that it is not about you then I will no longer recommend anything.
If you want to discuss the history of your people I recommend open thread though I am guessing you will find that offensive?
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@ Linda
and how often do foreign born blacks align themselves or concern themselves with the issues of black people born in america?
And just for the record, I have never refused to address what blacks born in other parts of the world experience but what I have noticed is many foreign born blacks consider themselves “different” (aka better) than blacks born in the U.S
when in REALITY they are just as much under the thumb of white supremacists as blacks born in the U.S. and that is the reason so many travel to the U.S.
to escape the white oppression they have been unable to eliminate
so rather than divide and conquer ourselves with false rhetoric (and trying to appease white people), they would be best served trying to build some bonds with the same black people born in the U.S. who made it POSSIBLE for them to come to the U.S. and eat in restaurants, and sleep in hotel beds, and get money for education and buy a home
the SAME BLACKS who fought all the civil rights battles and that is not a putdown but a FACT
I would strongly suggest you spend your time more constructively building bonds with people oppressed as you are, rather than appeasing the Lindas of the world
but, alas, we are only doing what we have been programmed to do….
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@Linda
I think both of you say things that people refuse to acknowledge. Americans tend to get stuck in the “me” bubble and “no one knows my experience” ideas. Even though I try my best to keep that open mind, sometimes I am very susceptible to closing my mind and not listening as well.
Personally I am more open to listening to you simply because I love the way you say it.
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I failed to see how LKC posts about Serbia were germane to the topic. That is my issue.
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@Mary Burrell
I understand that, besides it is rare that you would say anything mean or rude to anyone unless they are being such to you or if they are derailing in this case.
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“TPam, I would strongly suggest you spend your time more constructively building bonds with people oppressed as you are, rather than appeasing the Lindas of the world”
Linda says,
I strongly suggest you read up on your American history where you will discover Exactly what we foreign blacks, have contributed to black America…
such as our Jamaican hero, Marcus Garvey… Then you can come back to Lecture me.. MANY of the black American civil rights leader were black Foreigners
If you have read any of MY posts, then you would know Exactly what I do or don’t know or how align with black America
So please, don’t bring your beef with Linda KC to my doorstep because I chose to give some advice to her and directing her to the appropriate format.
Just because you don’t wish to hear from white people doesn’t mean she shouldn’t speak…
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@TP
Is it possible that part of this might be attributable to having a counter frame that is not strictly anti-racist (ie, vis a vis white supremacy in the USA) but also a counter frame based on their identity with non-American social mores and society structure. They might be drawing on 2 different counter frames in their reaction to white racism (as well as treatment by black Americans).
That “different” does not necessarily mean “better”, but that it might work “better” for them sometimes than the anti-racist counter frame used by most US blacks.
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@sharinalr: That’s all i was trying to say. I am sure there is another thread for LKC experience that with be congruent to that topic.
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@Trojan Pam
“I suggest you go back and read your postings. It is ALL ABOUT YOU, it is very self-involved and sounds very narcisstic. I doubt you would post like this on a white blog because they would shut you down.
And that is why I find some white people gravitate toward black people (and black spouses) because they are easier to manipulate and control (or so they think).
And that is why it’s important for BLACK PEOPLE to understand racism/white supremacy and how it works and especially how the most REFINED RACISTS work.
They will ALWAYS use their “whiteness” against us, to deceive us (refuse to answer SIMPLE questions), to manipulate us (making themselves the CENTER of the conversation), and to basically DERAIL us from any MEANINGFUL discussion about racism
they are often the ones who seek out “relationships” with us and that is a PRIMARY reason I am against black people engaging in sex with white people, especially refined racist white people”
Great post Pam! And 100% TRUE! Keep going girl! You’re really on a roll!lol
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@Mary Burrell
I understand that, besides it is rare that you would say anything mean or rude to anyone unless they are being such to you or if they are derailing in this case.
Linda says,
I agree, this is not the post for extended discussion of Serbian history in comparison to black American experience..
but Linda KC shouldn’t be chased away from the blog just because she is on the wrong post.
That’s why I wanted to re-direct her.
but I also understand her frustration with this blog, because the only time this blog lights up, is when the issue is dealing with black America.
Everything is always from the black American point of view and the rest of us black/brown people can go kick rocks.
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Well.. she’s won! The thread has actually devolved into being about her.
I think everyone here knows how to stop this mess (that is …those that are interested in doing so).
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@Linda: It is my understanding that we should stay on topic. I have no problem with white commenters. I know many times on this discussion forum that topics get derailed. But it was just making me crazy because i just could connect how Serbian history was related to the thread. I am glad you redirected LKC to a thread that could address her experience.
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^^^^I just couldn’t connect how Serbian history was related to the thread.^^^^^^^^
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@Linda: I don’t feel like the immigrant born people can go kick rocks. I appreciate your information about your Caribbean ancestry.
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She didn’t win anything. All she did was produce a cloud of suspicion over her head.
The 3 questions I asked her do not have any “wrong” and/or incorrect answers; but she chose not to answer.
Linda, do you have a blog?
If so, why don’t you start a thread about yourself where people can ask you questions?
I am willing to participate. Your Serbian background may give you a unique perspective on race that could be of value to non white people.
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@Linda; I have no problem with immigrant born blacks i learn from you and posters like Gro Jo who i assume is Hatian or Your exchanges who former poster Bulainik about the “Coolies” and being Jamaican. I am just trying to learn too.
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Getting back to the original subject, I have to wonder how our elite black men and women are feeling about the murder of Tamir Rice. As it’s been said over and over, your upbringing or class status means nothing to someone who makes a split-second assessment of who you are based on the color of your skin.
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@ Linda
who said: “I strongly suggest you read up on your American history where you will discover Exactly what we foreign blacks, have contributed to black America…such as our Jamaican hero, Marcus Garvey… Then you can come back to Lecture me.. MANY of the black American civil rights leader were black Foreigners. If you have read any of MY posts, then you would know Exactly what I do or don’t know or how align with black America
So please, don’t bring your beef with Linda KC to my doorstep because I chose to give some advice to her and directing her to the appropriate format. Just because you don’t wish to hear from white people doesn’t mean she shouldn’t speak…
—
I did not mean to add fuel to that “foreign blacks” VS “U.S. born blacks” (and suspect I fell into that trap and for that I apologize” ) — and I agree with you that we should embrace ALL of our history both here and outside the U.S.
You absolutely have the right to speak to white people and I have no problem dialoguing with whites UNTIL they try to dominate the dialogue with “whiteness” or some form of “me-isms” to derail and redirect the original topic
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In lite of the the events in Ferguson and all over the country all black Americans need to be aware that they are not immune from police brutality. No matter where they are on the social economic strata. If they are in a black body they are targets for racial profiling in this police culture.
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If Mr. Obama or Oprah Winfrey had a black son they could be racially profiled by police. The being called the N-word is pretty benign to being gunned down by a racist cop.
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AsMack Lyons stated i too wonder how our elite sistes and brothers are viewing the events in Ferguson and now the murder of young Timir Rice in Cleveland, Ohio. I have been on a couple of blogs and i can spot the “respectability politics negros” Many of them are saying that it is the “thug culture” responsible for what has gone down in Ferguson. There are many who believe that it was Mike Brown’s behavior and young men like him that bring this type of thing on themselves. But they need to understand that they could be mistaken for some criminal, because to them we all look alike and beaten or gunned down by mistake.
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@Mary Burrell
I have one of those “respectability politics negros” on my facebook and she is about one more comment from being deleted. Quoting crap about the black abortion rate and how blacks can’t complain because of that.
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@sharinalr: I just feel black people with that sort of mentality are not understanding that this could be them.
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If you punish the police for killing criminal thugs the police may compensate by tolerating criminal thug behavior.
The police have no legal duty to risk their life for you; but many do because they are committed to YOUR safety.
They have the option to wait for back up while you are being abducted and raped in a dark alley;
Or they can risk their own safety to act immediately on your behalf.
Be careful what you ask for.
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“If you punish the police for killing criminal thugs the police may compensate by tolerating criminal thug behavior.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thwack,
You seem to suggest that cops are ONLY killing BLACK CRIMINAL THUGS.
(The more you post here the more I wonder if you’re really the SAME person that was in close association with Mr. Edward Williams, Cinque, Mr. Fuller… at TheCode website. Might you be on a government TROLL payroll, now? You’re looking more and more like a fake!).
The police do tolerate black criminal behavior!
How so?
The police and prosecutors in the US have a long history of arresting and convicting any available black person(s) that fits their purpose …. to put any black folks in cages, in electric chairs, or life in prison — often for profit – whether we’ve done the crime – or not. If they arrest and imprison me for a crime I did not do, then they are in fact tolerating criminal behavior by failing to remove the true criminal from the street.This happens A LOT (to Black people) in the US criminal justice system.
I don’t and won’t trust those who have a long and well established history in constructing evidence that will convict innocent people just so their conviction rate looks good, or because they’re racist pricks.
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Sorry JM, but the fact is, lots of nonwhite people commit violent crimes. Now sure, you can argue the white supremacist system set them on a path from birth to behave that way; but at the end of the day, rabid dogs need to be put down because if they aren’t, you will spend all your time and energy dodging wild dogs instead of being able to focus on the white supremacists.
Matter of fact, I suspect the white supremacists tolerate some black criminals because they get good value for the damage they do black people.
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@ thwack
I’ve noticed something since yesterday. Not only is the “Michael Brown as a rabid dog of a criminal” narrative is being played to the hilt, but the grand jury findings have served as a vindication of his death. And lots of black people are latching onto that in a sickening show of “respectability politics,” to the glee of many undercover white supremacists who genuinely believed Mike Brown posed a threat to anyone, let alone an armed and trained cop.
They’re even arguing that they should have focused on a more innocent victim: Tamir Rice.
Negros attacking Negros: the best bit of entertainment a white bigot could hope for, aside from hanging one, of course. It makes each other and ourselves weak. It leaves us squabbling with one another on the figurative plantation while the master looks on, unthreatened and very much in control.
Would be interesting if he was, but I doubt it. He is who he is and not much else.
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Maybe the Tamir Rice incident occurred at the opportune time. Maybe those officers will not get away with their crimes and it will keep the debate at the national level.
Sorry, I did not mean to say his death and murder itself was opportune. OF course I do not mean that.
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Not only is the “Michael Brown as a rabid dog of a criminal” narrative is being played to the hilt, but the grand jury findings have served as a vindication of his death.
————————————————————————————————
Hey Mack, are you an opponent of the grand jury process?
If so, what mechanism do you suggest be used to replace it?
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@ all
you know what the irony of it all is — speaking of the dialogue between Linda Keres Carter and some of is
she is the only one on this thread who is talking about her suffering to black males and females who have been mistreated in ways she could never deal with or imagine. Most of us suffer in silence, we seldom share the horrible experiences we’ve had under the system of white supremacy, all the slights, and insults and snubs and treatment at the hands of white employers (or people who wouldn’t hire us), and the mistreatment by police, or authority figures, etc.
Many of us have had friends and family beaten or killed by police (I have), many of us have buried our children before their time, been the victims of crime by people who have been trampled under the system as children, have loved ones incarcerated, been cheated out of jobs and opportunities, been denied service, been humiliated in public and in private just for being black, been “racially profiled” as we shop in a store or drive down the street (I definitely have experienced that many, many times), and have watched our children and ourselves and countless numbers of black children go through the wicked process of educational genocide as we languished in black schools custom designed to destroy our educational potential
and as black females, dealing with the twin assaults of SEXISM AND RACISM, who are regularly maligned in the racist mainstream media, been called nappy headed and ugly and worthless nearly all our lives, and are the women MOST LIKELY to be raped or assaulted in the U.S, and the MOST LIKELY to keep that secret because we know no one cares, including other black people
and I have watched countless numbers of black females have walking nervous breakdowns as they struggle to live under these conditions and raise their children often by themselves for a variety of reasons (while Miss Linda is married to a black male), and so many in my city are burying their children before their time, children who were murdered at the hands of police, even children as young as NINE YEARS OLD.
yet I can’t remember a SINGLE black female (or black male for that matter) spending three entire days or more talking about how much they’ve suffered, like Linda Keres Carter has who I doubt has buried a single child or been racially profiled (unless traveling with her husband and he is the real target), or been refused service, or been saddled with inferior schools, or been denied unemployment (if she works), or denied ANYTHING ELSE.
I could understand if the police in her community here in the U.S. had been murdering the children in her community like they do in ours but I doubt that’s the case. YET black people as a whole seldom come on ANYONE’S blog (including mine) to talk about our immense suffering under the system of white supremacy
and then it occurred to me, maybe we should. Maybe, instead of listening to that other stuff, we should be SHARING our stories and releasing some of the PAIN that is making us so physically AND mentally ill so other victims won’t feel so isolated and alone and will know it’s alright to feel however we feel, to let go of those egos and the shame of being mistreated because it is NOT OUR FAULT that we are being mistreated because we are black.
let’s not waste our precious spiritually healing powers and sympathetic hearts on the WRONG PEOPLE.
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@Pam:
I agree with much of what you say but I find it irksome when you state that white supremacists (95% of whites and I am being generous), are aware of what they are about. Pam, you give them too much credit as they aren’t that smart or introspective. It’s inherent in their psyche. They are too dumb. Usually they follow the leader. If some have an inkling as to what is going on, they repress it or it manifests itself in a myriad of ways. Unfortunately for us, it is to our detriment as their racism manifest itself in systemically and institutionally . The average white person is only too glad to go along with the status quo in order to maintain the system despite many of them professing otherwise. The lengths they go to, to maintain this system, is complex and disingenuous. It is meant to be obtuse. Whether you are a wealthy black person or a poor black person you will learn what day it is sooner or later. Wealth and elitism may protect you to a certain extent but to the white person you are still a n*******. In fact they may try to tear you down even more if you are successful or wealthy or both.
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Trojan Pam,
Is there a way i can email you to talk privately about some of the comments here?
I’ve been lurking this post a couple days now…no need to make my comments and get insulted for making known my observation.
Abagond knows my email address–if he doesn’t mind, he can forward it to you?
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“let’s not waste our precious spiritually healing powers and sympathetic hearts on the WRONG PEOPLE.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
AMEN!
” then it occurred to me, maybe we should. Maybe, instead of listening to that other stuff, we should be SHARING our stories and releasing some of the PAIN that is making us so physically AND mentally ill so other victims won’t feel so isolated and alone and will know it’s alright to feel however we feel,..”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trojan Pam, there is one thread on this site where only the victims of racism are allowed to post their direct experiences/recollections with malignant racism. Whites are not permitted to post there.
Perhaps Abagond might remind us of the location of that thread.
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@ Just me and others
Here is the thread https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/04/26/what-was-your-first-experience-of-white-racism/
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@ Herneith
Do not be irked by what I believe, given the overwhelming evidence, is true.
think about what Linda Keres Carter has posted and how SIMILAR it is to what I’ve (and maybe, you’ve) seen on Abagond’s blog posts and countless other black blogs, including mine.
The refined racism/white supremacy ‘game’ of deception, denial, then guilt. I have watched this play out so many times, you would think there’s a rulebook guiding racist behavior
and guess what? There IS. Mr. Neely Fuller, Jr. calls it “codfication” where white people often ACT and SPEAK in code. There’s even a LANGUAGE designed around it that many blacks do not recognize
for example, “urban” = “blacks”
“suburban” = “whites”
I would STRONGLY suggest all check out Mr. Fuller’s books and this website
blackcodefiles_com (where you can listen to free sound clips of Mr Fuller breaking down the system of white supremacy and you can find him on youtube as well.
Also, I cover many topics in my books which you can check out free excerpts on racismws_com
Without going into a long, detailed diatribe about it, this is the evidence that white people — collectively — are far from “dumb”. (now, as individuals, their intelligence ranges from the low end to the high end like every other group on the planet, and that is where I think black people get confused. They see the “ignorant” white person in person and think, this mother is too dumb to be smarter than me
That is NOT what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the COLLECTIVE BEHAVIOR/INTELLIGENCE of white people that has allowed a small minority (less than NINE percent of the planet’s population) to control the other NINETY-ONE percent.
How? Through VIOLENCE, CONFUSION, and DECEPTION -but also from following a CODE OF CONDUCT — CODIFICATION — in how they deal with people they have classified as “not white”
It’s like saying a CON MAN or WOMAN is dumber than you when they’re conning you out of your money, your property, your bodies, and your self-respect.
How can white people — collectively — behave the same way for the last 500 years toward people of color, no matter where they go on the planet? How is that possible without a “code?” How can they be ignorant when this behavior happens everywhere they go, even before the telephone or television was invented?
How could whites landing foot on Australia wind up doing the SAME THINGS to the original people (the Aborigines aka “originals) that they did to the non-white people in New Zealand without a CONDUCT CODE?
And if my CONDUCT CODE has been largely successful, and I have most of the non-white people on the planet under my thumb, watching my white supremacist movies and TV, applauding the anti-black music and black entertainers who degrade black people,
and bleaching their skin and thinning their noses, and having sex with me (despite my mistreatment of them), and fighting and hating and killing each other while being loyal to me and my whiteness
how in the WORLD am I acting out of ignorance?
It is black and non-white people who are IGNORANT — because we do not understand and/or REFUSE to understand and accept that we are being DOMINATED by a system of white supremacy and that ALL white people are benefiting from that system
and that is why the Linda Keres Carters of the world will NOT TELL YOU THEY ARE WHITE or are LIVING AS A WHITE PERSON with ALL the privileges of being white
so the black people she comes into contact with will remain CONFUSED and that is NOT ignorance, that is a CODE, that is CODIFICATION, and you were reading it right here on this post.
We MUST be our egos aside and tell ourselves the truth because only the TRUTH will set you free because if you are under the thumb of someone else there is no way in H you are smarter than they are, especially when you are COOPERATING with the same system that is oppressing you.
I hope you will check out Mr. Fuller’s sounds clips, believe me, you will begin to see things more clearly than you have ever seen them before.
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@ phoebeprunelle
yes, you can email me directly, just go to my site (click on my name) and that will take you to my site
racismws_com
where you can send a site mail (the box is at the bottom of the home page)
let me know if you have any problems with sending the email
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@ Just Me
I will check that thread out, thanks for sharing the info
@ sharinalr
thanks!
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@ ALL
also, consider this:
Linda Keres Carter – to my knowledge — never ONCE said how her black husband was being mistreated because he was married to a white female
OR what he experienced as a black male that she observed
NOT ONCE
Where’s her empathy/pity/sympathy for HIM?
It was ALL ABOUT HER — AND HER PEOPLE
which is part of the CONDUCT CODE — that loyalty to their OWN KIND even when they are married or sexing one of us
The truth is out there for those black people who are sincerely looking for it
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Yes Pam, and this is why I hammered her with “The Critical Question”
“ARE YOU A WHITE PERSON?”
LKC engaged in a behavior characteristic of smart people, or codified people; lawyers do it all the time; I suspect there is a name for it but Im not sure what it is.
Technique: Make a series of true statements that cause the listener to make assumptions about what you mean.
Then use those assumptions to justify a position you clearly could not hold because of a lack of facts to support it.
All Lindas stories and 4000 buckets of words were designed to get black people to ASSUME she was/is nonwhite.
And many of us fell for it.
But she never actually said that.
See how that works?
Linda had the advantage of the fact black people usually respond with statements instead of questions because we want to prove how smart we are.
Lawyers, Cops and “Lindas” use the phenomenon to great advantage.
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Okay, I’ve done it. I’ve posted to my blog my answer to many of the questions you all have been so thoroughly raising. Just click on my avatar and you’ll be hitting the link.
Thank you for your attention, kind or otherwise. It’s all good. Please try to read to the end before you start commenting. I know catharsis needs to be expressed immediately or it slips away, but see if you can make it through.
My kids are coming for dinner, so I may be slow to respond. Gotta go cook.
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No, don’t click the avatar. Click my name.
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@ thwack
then I’ll ask the questions even I forgot to ask:
@ Linda Keres Carter
Are you a non-white person?
Do the people who classify themselves as white (in the U.S.) consider you a non-white person?
(Not talking about ethnicity since there is no such “ethnicty” as white or black, I’m talking about the caste classification ALL people have in a white supremacy system)
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“Do the people who classify themselves as white (in the U.S.) consider you a non-white person?”
No, they consider me White. Then when they know more about me, they consider me an Aberrant White.
If anyone is at all interested in what I am psychologically, I’m an Extinct Person.
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Oh, I’m sorry. I was eliciting too much sympathy and attention to myself. My bad. On the other hand, I’m trying to be precise and efficient with word count.
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Of course, ”elite upbringing” doesn’t protect upper middle class and rich Black children from racism. The White power structure and people will always see us as lesser than because they are Black. And even upper middle class and rich Black people experience racism and don’t benefit from White privilege. It is a pity that the parents mentioned in the article were naïve to believe that they and their children wouldn’t experience racism since they live in a nice neighborhood, accomplished and well mannered citizens and contribute greatly to society. At the end of the day, they will always see us as n*****s regardless of what we do, how well we do in society, who we sleep with etc. Sorry if my post hits the nerves of non Blacks and asleep Blacks out there but it is the truth.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
when I asked: “Do the people who classify themselves as white (in the U.S.) consider you a non-white person?”
YOU: No, they consider me White. Then when they know more about me, they consider me an Aberrant White.
—-
EXACTLY.
And you had and still have CHOICE to NOT let them know more about you
and the choice to NOT marry a black person.
WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE
The endless “oh poor me” train you are driving down the black rails should end with your ADMISSION that you are considered WHITE in a WHITE SUPREMACY SOCIETY
which you kept refusing to answer (that is classic refined racism)
and trying to FORCE us into playing the black mammy role
Well, this ain’t no ‘Gone with the Wind’ sequel and some of us aren’t buying it.
we have NO INTEREST in being your black mammy or black mammy man (except, maybe the black male who fell for the con)
and those black people who are still so programmed they can’t wait to take care of white people, hey, they are free to do so
What’s incredible is you are still talking about yourself and are asking black people to go to your blog to learn more about you?
This is narcissism to the nth degree!
wow
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@Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
Are you Adeen who use to post here a lot?
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@Sharinalr
Yup, I hardly post on here anymore because of being busy with getting into college and trying to do what is best for me. But hearing about the Ferguson case and all these racial issues made me want to comment here again. This is a good blog to comment about when it comes to racial issues. And are you that same Sharina? Anyways if so, nice to see and talk to you again.
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Yes, yes, yes, the CHOICE thing. We ALWAYS had a choice. We could get out of this mess just by going to a different church. There’s a huge amount of culture and philosophy around making the RIGHT choice– the Kingdom of Heaven. In other words, keep your a$$ in the ghetto and stay ready. I’ll go into that in depth in another post on my blog, later. We are the Grand Masters on not passing. Even you aren’t going to get me to pass for White.
Now, see how’s she’s drawing me out? I’m not crashing in on this discussion of the elite suffering racism.
Been to my blog yet, Pam? Just click my name.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
I have no interest in knowing more about you and only participated this long because I wanted other people to see refined racism in action.
And part of the game is luring suckers like me into giving you all the time and attention that I have given you but I’m moving on to do something more constructive
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Okay, good, then we’ve established that you have no interest in my identity, only what you need to believe, and the attention you need for yourself.
We all need that. No problem.
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” I have no interest in knowing more about you and only participated this long because I wanted other people to see refined racism in action.
… I’m moving on to do something more constructive”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Trojan Pam,
You are so TERRIFICALLY terrible. I’m just in-love with the way you wield the TRUTH like Lightning, or a Flaming Sword that pierces the lies and deception of untruth.
Your revealments (yes I made up a word!) are Outstanding, as usual!
🙂
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@Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
Why you have grown up on so much and your parents must be so proud. You comments have an air of strength and it is so refreshing to kind of watch you blossom on this blog. I wish you all the luck in the world in college. 🙂
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@Adeen: You are really growing up so proud of you also.
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Actually this is frustrating, because contemplating the dynamics of the ghetto we were in vs. the one here is relevant to this topic. Actually, judging by what happened to us, you’d have to say that elite Blacks still suffering racism has some positive effect. That’s because you are in the greatest danger of the most brutal, sadistic kind of extermination when those of your own who betray you and try to move into the ‘okay’ class (pass) are able to totally lose connection with you. They’re the ones you have to worry the most about, being willing to butcher you. (The more you’re like the person you hate with that scapegoating / projection thing, the more you hate them. The minority Serbs butchered were ‘ghetto’, the Croat majority butchers were ‘bougie, Not that much time had passed since they had been tight.)
So, by that logic, keeping that unity of experience is good. It eliminates that possibility, anyway. The other factor in staying safe is to always be of some kind of use. When they hate you in that sick way and you are of no use to them, you’re in big trouble. The unimaginable can happen. Real quick.
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@ Just Me
I think some would agree with you (that I’m terrible) but just so you know I wish I lived in a world where color didn’t matter but SINCE it does, I have to be honest about it — and share my observations with other victims.
and as you can see Linda is STILL piling on the guilt
the last refuge of the refined racist when their other deceptive tactics don’t work
I have been thru that nonsense more times than I can count
can you imagine us going to a white blog and pulling the trick she pulled on us and expecting sympathy?
(i like your new word ‘revealments” 🙂
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“I think some would agree with you (that I’m terrible) ..”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You’re *wonderfully* Terrible! I wish more of us were, including me! lol
Just count me among your biggest fans!
Here’s the synonyms I have in mind when I say you’re Terrible: acute, alarming, astounding, awe-inspiring, awesome, concentrated, conscience-stricken, dire, egregious, enormous, exquisite, fearsome, fierce, formidable – just to name a few, so yes, some here would agree with me that you are indeed the TERRIBLE one … along with a few others posters.
I believe most Black people would rather not live in a world where we weren’t judged negatively by the melanin we possess in our skin. Hopefully many of us will quickly awaken to what a real Blessing OUR MELANIN is!
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Just Me
I believe most Black people would rather not live in a world where we weren’t judged negatively by the melanin we possess in our skin.
———————————————————————————————
I think your use of more than one negative got the best of you?
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@ Just Me
I am still learning like all of us but it’s good to know there are people out there (like you) who want to have a greater understanding of what we are dealing with as black people and don’t want it sugar-coated (like many do)
I have been criticized as being “harsh” but my question is, for all the people who have sugar-coated our reality, how well has that worked? Don’t we still have the same problems?
So, I decided, after all the head-banging and confusion and mistakes I made, that I would have benefited had someone told me the HARD, COLD TRUTH (assuming I would have listened. Who knows?)
But in light of the accelerated attacks against black people all over the planet (including Eboli) can we really afford the luxury of half-truths? I don’t think we can.
Have you ever checked out the Context of White Supremacy (C.O.W.S.)?
It’s an Internet radio program hosted by Gus Renegade, you would learn a ton about the system and you would have a greater chance of reducing your confusion and mistreatment under this system
The link
http://racismws.com/websites-blogs/
(it’s sixth down from the top)
Context of White Supremacy (C.O.W.S. Internet Program)
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If it’s of no interest to you how the US goes about colonizing countries and sending people into Diaspora these days, ignore me. They’ve gotten very slick. They got away with colonizing us and sending some of us into Diaspora by claiming we were fascists. If I could figure out who I was because the people here most familiar to me are Black, how fascist is that?
You want to think we’re the enemy. That’s an enormous waste. For you. You have no idea. And something your real enemies are relying on you to do.
Anyway, Pam, people just want to talk about the topic of the post, not listen to your attacks on me and your opinion that anyone who looks White is suspect. Why don’t you open that topic on the open thread?
Just be forewarned. My daddy raised me to argue with bigots (him) and NEVER let me lose. I was carefully groomed for this role. I’m home.
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@Linda, Trojam Pam and Just Me
I don’t mean to interrupt you guys but why attack one another? I understand that you all have your disagreements but attacking one another isn’t going to solve anything. I respect each and every one of you even though I don’t know you!
And for the matter of fact, I don’t think Whites look suspicious nor I think they are inherently evil. I am against the White supremacist system’s oppression of Black and Brown people worldwide. That is what bothers many Black and other non White bloggers and readers who frequent this blog often. And many White bloggers and readers on here don’t understand this frustration that many Blacks and other non Whites have with White supremacist system and sadly many of them deflect the topic and make it all about them. I know because I realized this from reading the comments and going out in the world and experiencing things. We can’t break down this system if Whites don’t acknowledge their privileged status in the world and try to break it down so that everyone can work on an equal playing field.
I took some time off from posting on this blog because I realized that I needed to grow mentally and emotionally before I ever really got to understand what my people truly go through in this society. I am only in my late teens. I am still in the process of learning how White supremacy affects my life and the lives of many Blacks, Latinos, Asians and Native American in this country and other Black and brown people worldwide.
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@ Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
I can only speak for myself. If you look at my first few posts to Linda I was respectful but as time went on I realized something else was going on, that it appeared the ENTIRE topic was being diverted BY her to be all ABOUT her and that needed to be challenged.
I have watched similar scenarios play out time and time again, on the internet and in person, where white people would either become defensive (hostile) to any HONEST discussion about racism OR they would try to redirect and deflect and become deceptive and evasive
like NOT answering a simple question — “are you functioning as a white or a non-white person?”
How can they be any goodwill when someone is being deceptive?
I respect your desire to learn and to think for yourself and I suspect you will better understand what happened on this thread as you grow older and gain more wisdom
I would like to suggest you check out Mr. Fuller, Jr. on youtube or you can go to
blackcodefiles.com and listen to the sound clips
I would also suggest checking out the COWS program (the links are in my previous post)
Because UNTIL black and non-white people EDUCATE ourselves about this system and how it functions and USE that information to change the way we think, speak and act, NOTHING WILL CHANGE
There is NOTHING new that black people can do that previous generations have not done before us
they have begged, pleaded, marched, protested, carried signs, boycotted, appeased, tried to please, tried to assimilate, tried to integrate, tried to empathize and sympathize, be patriotic, dying in wars we had NO business fighting in,
in the hopes that whites collectively would soften their HARD hearts and see us as fully human
and what happened just a few days ago? a murderer of an unarmed black teenager was AGAIN set free by a rigged prosecution
Do we NOT understand that we cannot change white people? That we have to CHANGE OURSELVES?
That is why I posted as often as I did on this thread, to try to present my case as best as I could as to how white supremacy in its MOST REFINED form operates
an “well-meaning” white female married to a black male who tries to redirect a topic about black people and racism to HERSELF and HER PEOPLE without once addressing the pain of the black male she is married to and to try to accuse black people of being “guilty” and complicit in the mistreatment of one white tribe by another white tribe.
IT IS A MIND GAME and it is time we STOP being so easily manipulated
we can’t have it both ways, we can’t win our freedom and ride the fence at the same time when it comes to TELLING THE TRUTH about what we have and are experiencing. We have to GAIN SOME COURAGE and begin to speak TRUTH — and that is something most black people are TERRIFIED to do, despite all our ego and bravado and talk
The only thing that will happen to a people who ride the fence is one day they will find themselves AND their children
IMPALED ON IT
I wish you success in your own journey for truth and if there is anything I can do to help please let me know
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I appreciate your comments, Adeen. You’re a very perceptive and poised young lady I don’t dislike Pam. i don’t even disagree with her distrust. That’s kind of the big irony I deal with. I would probably be a separatist myself except for one minor detail.. LOL You can probably guess.
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“phoebeprunelle @ Trojan Pam,
Is there a way i can email you to talk privately about some of the comments here?
I’ve been lurking this post a couple days now…no need to make my comments and get insulted for making known my observation.”
Linda says,
Phoebe, I’ve never insulted you, called you names, or cursed at you…I’ve even apologized to you for not sticking up for you when we all argued with Sondis.
The only thing I’ve ever done was asked you not be shady and tell me directly what you “observed” where I’m concerned
because you dropped a comment that, to me, WAS insulting and when I asked you politely to explain, then you have nothing to say.
I respect Trojan Pam for at least being direct and not hiding her observations no matter what
because once again, you are making a statement with the intention of being shady. Me saying this is not an “insult” — it’s an observation. I’m trying to remain respectful through out all your innuendos.
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@ Linda
if you click on my name it will take you to my site and you can send a site mail (see bottom of home page)
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are you suggesting that this person would rather talk to me privately or do you wish to speak with me privately?
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@ Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
I also wanted to recommend my book, “Trojan Horse: Death of a Dark Nation” which you can find at
http://racismws.com/bookstore/
(if Abagond doesn’t mind me posting this here)
this book covers what I refer to as “The 13 Weapons of Mass Mind Destruction” — in which I use fictional stories to illustrate the concepts. There are free excerpts of all my books on the site
which you might find useful
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@ Linda
My mistake, I thought you were saying it but it was Phoe
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Trojan Pam, no problem
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“like NOT answering a simple question — “are you functioning as a white or a non-white person?”
For some people that’s NOT a simple question with a simple answer, but a loaded question, depending on the asker, with true answers that can be quite complex. And when someone is asking for a simple answer it is because they think it is all simple, based on something superficial and arbitrary that applies to some people more than others and to hell with everyone else. What my experience has been countless times over many years is that it’s just a lead up to the Big Dismissal. It’s the question that is dishonest, since there is no real intention to understand the real answer, except from the acceptable.
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@ TrojanPam
I don’t have that info memorized but if it’s important to you you could check back over Abagond’s blogs and see if you can find it. 🙂
It’s incumbent on you to prove your claims or back up your claims. That is basic integrity. Dishonest people shift the burden to others.
Anyway, I was curious as to what you’d say; we both know Wordynerdygirl exposed both false claims that you made about a book that you claimed to have read but hadn’t. Also, the malarky about Jewish intermarriage with Gentile Germans was cr@p written by some crank who has crank minded fans on the internet.
I don’t recall the thread where Wordynerdygirl exposed your misinformation and lies, but you know it happened and you know you are a peddler of garbage. 🙂
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Trojam Pam and Linda,
Thanks for your comments. I appreciated it.
Trojam Pam
Especially, I appreciated your input. I would love to learn more about how systematic racism and oppression affects my people and other Black and brown people worldwide.
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@ Legion
I think I’ll borrow your phrase: and throw it back at you:
It’s incumbent on you, Legion, to prove your claims or back up your claims. That is basic integrity. Dishonest people shift the burden to others.
and then you have the audacity to say (when proving your claim):
“”I don’t recall the thread where Wordynerdygirl exposed your misinformation and lies, but you know it happened and you know you are a peddler of garbage.”
You don’t “recall?” But it’s incumbent upon me to obey you and prove my claim?
Sounds like a case of the white stockpot calling the black kettle “garbage”
appreciate the early morning chuckle…:-)
(by the way, I will not be responding to any more foolishness from you or participate in a childish back and forth, go find another playmate)
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“You don’t “recall?” But it’s incumbent upon me to obey you and prove my claim?
appreciate the early morning chuckle…:-)
(by the way, I will not be responding to any more foolishness from you …..”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
LOL
You GO Pam!!!!!
It’s said that “laughter is GOOD medicine”, so I appreciate being lifted up by the comedy, also!
There’s been a lot of comedy around here of late. Some of it is funny, like this one. The other stuff is sort of sad, almost tragic. Keep the funny stuff coming! lol
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“like NOT answering a simple question — “are you functioning as a white or a non-white person?”
Okay, let’s try this simple answer.
I am not American. I am a throwback to a place, where, for hundreds of years, WE HAVE BEEN THE NEE-GROES.
We are mirrors to each other. When, as a little girl many years ago I started loving what I saw in that mirror I took the first step out of White Hell. I’m waiting for the second step.
It’s your move.
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I don’t like what has happened in the Black community in recent years in regard to defining race. It seems that as I was growing up, we looked at Blackness as consisting of a wide variety of “shades.” From the darkest dark to the light-skinned and straight-haired. As long as people were willing to identify as and with Blacks and to openly acknowledge their African ancestry then they were seen as Black.
Part of the reason for this was that once they associated themselves as Black people, then Whites would certainly apply the one drop rule and begin to treat them accordingly. Whites would see them as “a kind of Black person” and thus a lesser person than themselves.
Everybody understood that the experience of “mixed,” light, or nearly White Black people were different than the experiences of more noticeably Black people. But most did not automatically assume that their different experience was therefore somehow easier or less authentic. They simply faced different appendages of the beast of prejudice—but make no mistake, they were fighting the very same animal as everybody else.
I find this fracturing of the Black community (no matter who is doing it) to be divisive and counterproductive.
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@King: So glad to read you. Don’t be a stranger.
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Hey there Mary 🙂
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@ King
I think we all have a wide range of complexions in our black families. I have relatives that were white enough to pass (but didn’t) and others who probably did. I also have relatives as dark as someone from the Sub-Sahara and we were all family, but we were also not open and honest about colorism or racism
There was a ton of confusion within our ranks.
But the ONE thing that stands out when thinking about my white-skinned relatives is they NEVER played the kind of head games with black people that I have seen on this thread.
If ASKED, they would AND could answer the question: Are you a black person?
I feel — and you might disagree — that there has been a TON of (racist) manipulation and deception on this thread. And a neurotic, narcisstic demand to be the center of attention. And at first, I thought the exchange was sincere until I started seeing a pattern that to me was not constructive or reasonable.
That is why I challenged it. Because I have seen this game played out time and time again by people who are classified and benefiting from being white to DERAIL and DISTRACT the conversation away from black issues to some “other” issues. .
Sorry, they are not part of my black family but I am still courteous and considerate if they are considerate and courteous toward me. Others may feel differently, that anyone can claim a “kinship” to black people EVEN WHILE benefiting from their white privileges. I absolutely disagree. However, those who disagree are free to do so.
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@ Just Me
Legion and I have tangled before and I suspect he’s harboring some sort of grudge due to my previous refusals to “obey” his demands.
He seemed particularly aggrieved whenever I referenced the Jewish holocaust and has obviously never forgiven me to dare speak about it (which makes me wonder if he’s Jewish?) since I am just a clueless negro.
In any case, I’m sure he’s searching high and low for that Wordynerdygirl “exposed me” so I’m sure we’ll be hearing from him again.
What I don’t understand, though is why his word or her word (if she said it) is any more valid than mine? How can anyone prove something didn’t happened or wasn’t said? Just because you have an Internet connection?
I wouldn’t make something like that up. Now, it’s possible the book or quote I read was inaccurate but I have better things to do (and a lot less imagination) to make up a quote like that.
This is where racism once again rears it’s ugly, arrogant head. Legion barking orders to a resident Negro (like myself), demanding (not asking) me to obey and then (pretending) that his or her “word” is more valid than mine.
And that is white supremacy in action, folks.
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@Trojan Pam: Legion is a black man.
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@ Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
I would recommend checking out Mr. Neely Fuller, Jr on youtube and on the website — blackcodefiles (just add the dot com)
Also I host a Counter Racism Boot Camp course on my website (just click my name) and I have four books that deal with racism/white supremacy plus a blog and free excerpts
I hope you’ll check it out. TRUTH is not always pleasant but always NECESSARY for those who want to be FREE
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@ Mary Burrell
He and I went though a ruckus a few years ago and I got the distinct impression that he is white. In fact, I asked and he was being very vague (if I remember correctly) about his ethnicity and others thought he was black but I found reason to believe he was white
so until I see evidence to the contrary I am going to assume it is true
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@King
Very well said.
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I agree with Mary on Legion being black. When we first met we argued and he revealed then he was black as I too assumed he was white.
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@ sharinair
I respect you and Mary’s perceptions but I trust my own as well. I remember him saying he was black and then we kept going back and forth and I can’t remember the exact exchange but I came away believing he was white and that is my gut and I go with that.
the reality is no one really knows who or what someone is, you judge it by the conversation and that is what I’m judging by and after our exchange some of the black people reading them came to the same conclusions but I admit I can’t say absolutely whether he is white or not
just a feeling…
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“Because I have seen this game played out time and time again by people who are” NOT “classified and benefiting from being white or light to DERAIL and DISTRACT the conversation away from anyone WHITE OR TOO LIGHT, denying them simple human sympathy. That is all I am asking for, and I’ve been asking for it for a lifetime. Stopped even asking for 30 years or so I was so sure of the response. But i’m asking again, and I won’t leave it alone.
Where you are seriously in error is accusing Black people of being too sympathetic to someone white ‘claiming’ as you would say, to be a victim of some injustice. That simple, normal response is almost always at least muted. I can get plenty of normal, natural, respectful sympathy from virtually anyone else in the world, of any complexion, but I will not find it freely given from the same people I felt so much sympathy for it defined my life, needing so badly for what I saw in that mirror to apply to me.
Even people seeking out my company feel it. They want me to be ‘white’ also. and they’re confused when I start claiming this equality, and looking for an equivalent, natural sympathy.
And that is Black Separatist Moral Superiority in action, folks. You are what you hate.
You seriously need to leave bi-racial families alone. You are a menace to any child with a white parent. I’ve already heard from one of them and you are making a mess of her. If you don’t stop, you’re going to kill somebody, and you’ll never even know it. Too arrogant.
I know why you won’t read my blog post. You’re afraid. If you took in who I really am, and what I’m really saying, you’d have to close up shop, and you have way too much ego invested in that.
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@Trojan Pam
I respect your feelings, but it is no different from letting a white person pass off as black simply because they say what we want to hear or they “sound” black. We don’t really know, but one can get a pass with the right wording.
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@ sharinalr
true and I could be wrong about Legion, who knows?
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@Trojan Pam: There was an exchange between him and another commenter who posts on this forum from time to time. That commenter referred to him as an “Uncle Ruckus” and he was quite taken aback by it. And he even said how he was hurt that another black man would refer to him as such.
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@ Mary Burrell
I could be wrong but I have to go with my gut
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@ Trojan Pam
Legion has identified as Black but I’m not good at looking up stuff on this website, so I can’t provide you with the link Im afraid.
As for shades of Blackness, I’m not speaking only to your comment but to the general trend. I heard one sister saying she wasn’t going to see “Beyond the Lights” because Gugu was mixed. But I think,that people deal with their own Blackness as they can. If you grew up Black in the U.S., then you will probably understand it in a certain way. If you’re Blackness was hidden from you and you somehow stumbled upon it going through an old family photo album, it would probably be quite different.
What I’m saying is that it’s not enough to call Black men “brotha’s” and call Black women “sista’s ” — it actually has to mean something. And we all have to give each other the benefit of the doubt when it comes to dealing with our own disparate experiences and understanding of our Blackness. It’s the old adage of walking in another person’s moccasins. what may look like one thing may actually be another.
I’m not saying that you’re wrong. I’m just saying that before you act, make sure you’re right.
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@ King
Legion has identified as Black but I’m not good at looking up stuff on this website, so I can’t provide you with the link Im afraid.
—
I understand that, he did that with me but as we went back and forth I got a different impression. Anyone can say they are “black” I have found white posters doing that and then people busted them because they gave themselves away.
My point is ANYONE can pretend or say they are anything. I go by what they say and how they say it and I have found that sometimes when challenged they change their tactics.
My dialogue with the Linda who is posting now was not a dialogue between two black people. As I have said before, I was respectful towards her UNTIL she tried to dominate the thread and make it all about her. That is what I challenged not her right to her own history and story. It’s not about being right, how does anyone make sure they’re “right”? All any of us have on this thread is our opinions. That’s it.
And for those who feel the need to appease the Lindas of the world (not saying you’re one of them) they can continue to do so.
I don’t think black people have the luxury of being politically correct (are we seeing what is happening to black people all over the world?)
WIth that in mind, I’m going to continue being direct and honest about my impressions of her posts
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@King: Yes, you are correct I am seeing alot of that sentiment that you spoke of concerning the the actress Gugu Mbatha Raw. Lots of black women feel their images are being erased by women who look like Gugu, I have engaged on that subject on quite a few message boards. But that belongs on open thread probably.
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@ TP
On race claims: I have found that on the Internet it is impossible to prove race. Therefore I simply accept people’s claims as I find them. If you think about it, you can’t even be 100% sure if Abagond is Black.
@ Mary
This attitude is the wrong direction. We don’t need to be looking for fights among ourselves as if we don’t have enough outside challenges to deal with. What has happened to us?
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@ King
Exactly. All we can do is draw our OWN conclusions, that’s the point I was making
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@ King; Yes, you are right.
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@King
This maybe going out in left field but I found that in making the choice to push away our black brothers and sisters because they are mixed it is a grave error. When we do that we basically push much needed support towards whites who they will view as more accepting.
When I went natural I got the most hateful comments from black people, but white people were like “oh how beautiful! ” “I love your hair that way!”
I was thinking the whole time “something is really wrong with this picture!”
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@ sharinair
I think that one of the great strengths of the Black American tribe, has been our ability to except people of all backgrounds under our racial umbrella. I can look at pictures from high school and see Black girls of every hue sitting on the wide lawn under the trees, laughing with each other as best friends. I’m not saying that colorism didn’t exist, I’m just saying that in most cases that I know, it was never so strong as to truly keep us divided. But that seems to be changing of late.
Natural hair: it actually is a strange but common phenomenon that White’s often appreciate natural hair and think it more beautiful than many Blacks, I think part of the problem is that many Blacks don’t know how to truly care for their own natural hair and so every time they see you un-pressed head they think of naps! I personally love natural hair but I also can appreciate more styled or even straightened coiffures. Women should be able to wear their hair in a variety of styles, I mean it shouldn’t be a religion or something. And besides, how many White wome’s hair is “natural?”
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There was an episode on the syndicated show “A Different World” The Episode was titled “Risky Business” Jasmine Guy’s character Whitley Gilbert goes into a high end department store to purchase an watch for her father’s birthday. An the snobby saleswoman is giving her the frosty treatment and not wanting to assist her. Whitley is so clueless as to why the saleswomen is treating her so rudely. Freddie is trying to drop hints to Whitley about why the woman is being so rude. Whitley is so obtuse and it’s not registering that the woman doesn’t want to assist her because she is black. I think this is the mindset of quite a few elite upper class black Americans.
Then there is the episode of the Fresh Prince of Belaire where Carlton Banks is racially profiled and arrested by the cops. And Carleton just doesn’t have a clue why this is happening to him. Even though this is television there are still lots of clueless upper class black Americans who think that there upper class social status grants them immunity from racism. They are in need of a NWC.
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*their*^^^ typo
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Even the First family knows that people hate them not for their political standing but it’s about the color of their skin. The dominant culture doesn’t want to admit this but that is the reason so many racist are acting like ravenous dogs always coming after them for some petty thing or other.
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Mary:
“Risky Business” Jasmine Guy’s character Whitley Gilbert goes into a high end department store to purchase an watch for her father’s birthday. An the snobby saleswoman is giving her the frosty treatment and not wanting to assist her. Whitley is so clueless as to why the saleswomen is treating her so rudely. Freddie is trying to drop hints to Whitley about why the woman is being so rude. Whitley is so obtuse and it’s not registering that the woman doesn’t want to assist her because she is black.
My OH was a big fan of Its a different world and just looked up this episode out of interest. I dont think this is the correct title. See here in Wikipedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A_Different_World_episodes)
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@King
“Women should be able to wear their hair in a variety of styles, I mean it shouldn’t be a religion or something. And besides, how many White wome’s hair is “natural?”—–I have been learning that recently. I love my hair natural but it is ok that sometimes I want to straighten it out (no relaxer).
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“Elite upbringing does not protect Black kids from racism” –
Of course it doesn’t. How could it? The issue is white supremacist systematic hate, discrimination, attack, etc, not with the social class of any black person or other hated person at the moment.
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@ Alicia
I agree.
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Not to be rude but the hell is this sob story doing on this topic? I look for productive conversation but what I see is a bunch of feelings and trolling tossed into the mix derailing this whole thread.
@Linda
Are you saying you as a white women can relate to black women and black men, Linda? That’s lovely. I am glad you think you can , now please stop turning this whole thread into an off topic thread about you. I feel your struggle. Good for us all and your daring interracial relationship. I am in one too as a black woman, my boyfriend has a Filipina mother and a white father. Should we both have a cookie and gold stars? Shall I go to a blog with Filipinos and Filipinas and make whole thread about myself?
Now let’s move back to the subject at hand.
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I thought I was such a classy teen and college student. My bed at one point looked like the UN (yes I’ve slept with men who made racist comments , those men were nice textbook boyfriends). I thought I had it made, my parents were both instructors , my grandparents both owned stores so I was happy. I was tortured through etiquette classes. I was in for a rude awakening when I applied for a job and found out that this clothing store didn’t like to hire blacks. I will never raise my future kids the way my mom and dad raised me (colorblind).
love supporting black businesses since we have $1 trillion spending power and only 2% goes to black businesses. Make sure I treat black boys and girls with care and respect is my priority. I also don’t tell black women they can only wear their hair one way because some people like me can wear an afro and straighten in the same week and alternate.
Anyway, I can talk about racism behind your computer all day until the cows come home. I understand this as a coping mechanism but some people on this blog need some fresh air and to actually take action. Yes, I understand there is white supremacy and it effects everything we do….But when will you get off your computer and actually do something instead or getting ego boosts from arguing with or coddling derailers and trolls? It doesn’t have to be earth shattering. There was a autistic black woman recently who killed her in front of her family in Cleveland. She needed an escort so they held her down and restrained her and she “accidentally” died. Her name is Tanisha Anderson, if any of you care you can look her up and do something sweet for the family , donate, send support or you can debate about her case on the computer. Fund a black kid through college, support a black business, open a rec center, join the Big Brother and Sister Club , “unteach” eurocentric history. If you already do things , kudos, I am talking to the people who don’t.
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That is one thing this blog does.
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@Trojan Pam
I agree with you. Out of the four white men I dated, 3 of them were out right racist to me. The forth seemed to be a genuine guy until after 3 years of dating he began making jokes how “Mexicans had bad jobs and their ‘unpleasant skin color”. I was shocked because he was from Italy, born in Italy, raised in Italy and I didn’t think Mexicans would be on his radar but hell they were. He also loved to cook for me , tell me bedtime stories and bring me blankets when I was sick but he still was racist. Period. He also didn’t like me in the room with black men. I would just leave black people alone and let them find their white guy or woman with a “I don’t like or want to benefit from white privilege” mindset. You know since their minds only default to white people when they think of interracial. Blacks, usually are obsessed with this topic. If “xxx” celeb person doesn’t want to have sex with black people, plenty of us devote so many useless , whiny, self loathing blogs to it instead of being useful and teaching our kids history and black economics.There is this video called racial hierarchy on YouTube on why blacks are more open to dating other races vs other races dating black ppl. We aren’t more “openminded” as we say, we just accept more because we find any other race to be an upgrade and are flattered by their attention. This is the perceived scale by society and latino/hispanic are not a race, I am aware.
Whites men want white or asian females.
Asians men want white or asian females or “latina” (if she is pretty enough)
Latino/Hispanic men want latinas/hispanic, white or asians females.
Indian men want white , latinas , indian or asian females.
Blacks men want white, latino, asian , indian, “latino” or black.
Whaaaa… No white men? Seriously TrojanPam, but the term “interracial” makes me want to only get it on with blonde white men. Even though other races and admixtures exist in the world my mind defaults to white. It’s love not programming that I only think of white men and women under white supremacy. Stop Pam! Now you are being unfair!!! Leave me alone! I will flip this laptop through the window Pam how dare you dwindle my damn options, no one wants me! Who shall I pick from whilst I play my tiny violin about my dating life?
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@jefe
I realize, I was referring to “unteaching” children because they are the future generation and this nonsense will weigh heavily in their minds. I am aware of the subjects on this blog. I don’t see how some people on here have the energy to argue with trolls constantly. I understand a comment or two but it gets to the point where you realize no one will be discussing the post for a long long while. That’s rather depressing since it takes away from the productivity of the original topic. Racist Johnny will comment and then hell breaks loose and bye bye discussion. I like to comment now and then, it’s different when you aren’t really involved with the usual posting community and looking from the outside.
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Lol!
How clever. For those not into humor, for the record, this demonstrates what Trojan Pam has been saying in a comical way.
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“Not to be rude but the hell is this sob story doing on this topic?”
It takes two to tango, sweetheart.
If you’ll look carefully at the interminable argument, I was on topic till a few others started challenging me and continued doing so until they’d insulted me enough to draw me out, then got deeper and deeper into their dismissals. If you want this topic to stay on the Graham’s, why are YOU drawing me out? Or could it be YOU want to hijack the thread and talk about yourself? Oh, that’s right. That’s what you’ve started doing.
If you REALLY want to know the sob story, you can click my name. But since you used the ‘hell’ word in that sentence, I know you don’t and won’t, and you’ll miss the ultimate in sob stories, which I can assure you, you in no way want to compete with.
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Oops, wasn’t logged into the right account
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@LKC,
Please don’t accuse other people of forcing you to derail the thread. You did that all by yourself and are continuing to do that. You just did it again.
People may be interested in some of your story, but could you consider taking it to another relevant thread as people suggested? You can leave the link here so that people can find it.
Of course, they can also go to your blog and do that.
I would really like to see this thread get back on topic.
@GiatheSwan
I think we not only need to unteach children, but adults too. We have all been brainwashed by our primary and secondary school textbooks and the media. Sometimes parents try to brainwash their children just like the Grahams in this post. After unteaching, then we have to unlearn, not a smooth easy process, at least for adults.
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“Please don’t accuse other people of forcing you to derail the thread. You did that all by yourself and are continuing to do that. You just did it again.”
No, Jefe, she brought it back off the subject. People had gone back to discussing the Graham’s for awhile. And now you’ve jumped in, bringing the attention back to me. Thank you. I have it coming.
I did post somewhere else, and have invited people and only one person here has chosen to take me up on it. You can guess who it is. We’re having a very productive conversation. Pam said she has no interest in knowing anything about me, and she’s telling children I’m despicable. That’s of course, without knowing anything about me, except, as she said. that I expect people of color to give me attention. It is of no consequence how many decades of attention I’ve given them. Sounds like a good bi-racial family consultant to me!
BTW, I ain’t ur momma.
http://krajinaserbic.com/dear-black-people/
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OFF TOPIC: Linda Keres Carter or interracial relationships except as they directly apply to the topic of the post.
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@ GiatheSwan
I think the problem with black people recognizing racists is we want to believe so badly that “good white people” actually exists, and that makes it extremely easy to manipulate and fool us, and the other reason is we have a stereotyped view of what a racist/white supremacist is:
They don’t all wear hoods or belong to the KKK or use the n-word (to our faces) or mean-mug us or push little old black ladies in front of speeding cabs. They aren’t necessarily “red-necks” or uneducated or ignorant-acting.
The most refined racists are often difficult to spot and they can be very, very charming and likable and could appear to be a good friend. But the one thing I have NEVER seen is a white person who wants to share power equally with black people OR one who doesn’t (secretly) believe that black people should be in charge of white people (in a real sense).
This quote pretty much sums up the best intentions and attitudes of whites towards blacks. (hope this isn’t off-topic):
“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say
in addition to this, that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”
— Abraham Lincoln
(1809 – 1865)
—
and that is as GOOD AS IT GETS — in my opinion. We need to educate ourselves about the system of racism/white supremacy. If we did we wouldn’t be so quick to get sexually involved.
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correction:
But the one thing I have NEVER seen is a white person who wants to share power equally with black people OR one who doesn’t (secretly) believe that white people should always be in charge of black people.
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Trojan Pam
Children? What children am I talking to? I don’t talk about her outside this blog because it’s not that serious or that interesting, to be frank.
Is LKC talking about Adeen as she seems to puts her age on a lot of her posts and that seems to be the youngest person on here. Linda will no doubt answer
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@ George Ryder
GiatheSwan posted DIRECTLY to me and I am responding. Also, Linda accused me of some terrible things and there are people who might believe her — even though she is not telling the truth. I don’t care what she thinks but I do care enough to challenge the lies.
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@ sharinalr
As I explained to George Ryder my reasons for responding so I won’t repeat that here. Do you think it’s insulting to lie about someone?
As far as I know, Abagond has NOT blocked Linda from posting.
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@ George Ryder
Have you ever met anyone with real power who wanted to share it with others? No but I NEVER seen a group of people who designed an entire SYSTEM with the goal of making every one outside that group inferior. I have NEVER seen nor is there is any evidence of a
brown supremacy system
red supremacy system
black supremacy system
or a yellow supremacy system
I have also NEVER seen people go all over the planet and try to inferiorize and demoralize and psychologically destroy people JUST BECAUSE they look different.
Only white supremacists have done that AND continue to do that and if you have any evidence or proof that other “groups” have done this please share the links or facts with us.
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I get your reason for responding, but she is also off topic at this point.
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Guilty*
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@ George Ryder
(do you see how easy it is to get off topic when someone posts something directly to you?)
In any case, If there had EVER been a system of brown supremacy or yellow or black globally, there would be a record of it, and believe me, white people would include it in their history books. (!)
Yes, people of all groups have mistreated other people, but NO ONE has ever created a GLOBAL SYSTEM where they make themselves superior to all the people on the planet.
Racism is NOT bigotry, it’s a system based on mistreating people SOLELY on the basis of color all over the planet. White people made up the skin color system. White people RE-NAMED all the non-white people and called them “people of color” VS what?
White people. White people deliberately SEPARATED themselves in order to create a system that made them APPEAR to be superior — in order to justifiy raping, pillaging and stealing.
There is NO ONE on the planet who have done that but white people. So, yes, all racism is white supremacy. If you disagree, we can agree to disagree.
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That’s true. Abagond said it was off-topic to talk about me. He didn’t say I couldn’t talk. I just have to stay on topic.
What I think about the issue on this topic is a bit complex. There are always two torments for oppressed populations. The torment of not being able to pass, and then there’s the torment of being forced or tempted to pass. The reason I bring Balkan history into the mix is that we went through the Torment to Pass business to an incredible extreme. Black people in America have gone through the Torment of Not Passing to an incredible extreme. But it’s seguing, and there’s actually a great deal of passing that’s going on with Black people now. You can hear people agonizing about it on almost all these threads. And one of the ways the Trickster is going to get you, I believe, is to get you obsessing about the ‘refined forms of racism,’ that allegedly someone like me is practicing, or some sound byte coming from some senile old fart like Donald Sterling, while the real problem is how profoundly people are passing, and becoming what they hate and colluding with systems and situations they have tremendous anger towards.
It can be an incredibly vicious, hateful business when people start to become what they hate. Enormous amounts of hurtful energy can be released. The Croats are/ were ‘bougie’, we were ‘ghetto.’ ‘Were’ is a big word there. We’re gone now.
But obsessing on how you can still be victimized, while complicit, even relatively powerful in a system that is victimizing others is inherently dishonest, and a form of denial. It takes a lot of denial to pass. Y’all are just getting started. It’s an ugly business. And the illusion that you can’t pass will be a huge way to make people blind to what they’re becoming.
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@ George Ryder
If you’re asking me, no I absolutely do not think an elite upbringing protects you. Just ask Harvard Professor Henry L. Gates who got arrested in his own house and whose neighbors (I’m assuming they were white) called the police when he was trying to get into his own house
or the only black surgeon (in his specialty) at UCLA Medical center who was publicly ridiculed by his white colleagues and bosses when someone passed around a slide show presentation with a picture of the black surgeon’s head on top of a gorilla’s body being SODOMIZED by a white male with a picture of his supervisor’s face attached to the body. He said he turned to his white supervisor and asked, “How could you let them do this to me?”
and he said the white supervisor just looked at him and grinned
Just google this and choose your article “ucla surgeon gorilla”
or ask Colin Powell who ADMITTED in his memoirs that he was FIRED (he did not resign) and to quote him directily, he “…had experienced many private moments of humiliation among his peers….”
Or just ask President Obama who has been the target of more n-word type jokes even by those in powerful and public positions, like the federal judge who said Obama’s mother had sex with a dog and that was how he was born, and the Governor of Arizona (a white female) who pointed her finger in his face, and all the people in the media and politics who have declared open season on Obama, his wife, and NOW, even his children
Black people should know by now (Jeez) that titles and money DO NOT EQUAL POWER in a white supremacy system. Money can be printed but POWER requires systems and institutions and black people have NEITHER
All of our “institutions” including the HBCUs and so-called civil rights organizations are funded AND controlled by white people. Even our “first black president” wasn’t chosen or nominated or finance by us.
That is what a white supremacy system is. No amount of education, titles, or money will ever make a black (or non-white) person deserving of the same respect and privileges as the poorest white person.
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@ Omnipresent
who said: “LKC talking about Adeen as she seems to puts her age on a lot of her posts and that seems to be the youngest person on here. Linda will no doubt answer”
I honestly don’t know who she’s talking about but maybe you ‘re right.
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It does NOT take an elite upbringing to know not to try to wrestle a police officers firearm away from him; it might take a father in the home, but thats about it.
My dad makes Darren Wilson look like a choir boy.
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It does NOT take an elite upbringing to know not to try to wrestle a police officers firearm away from him; it might take a father in the home, but thats about it.
But is there proof the boy was fighting with the cop? His friend who was standing next to him said the cop freaked because he opened the door into Michael and it bounced back.
There was a white cop on Quora today saying that Wilson’s response was incredibly inept. If he thought he was in danger, all he had to do was hit the gas pedal and distance himself from the threat. His claimed behavior makes no sense and is not how cops are trained to behave.
Have there been toxicology reports on Michael? Are there any street drugs he might have been exposed to that could have made him that crazy violent? That’s the only scenario that might speak for Wilson, but how could we trust lab results at this point?
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I have never referred to Adeen. I heard from someone through my website who sounded like a child and was using words you had just used. The rest I inferred.
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@Trojan Pam: Yes you are correct especially at the POTUS being called all kinds of N-words and references about primates being made about him and his family i have mentioned this time and time again when it comes to these to thread topics on respectability politics and the elite. I mentioned Dr. Christian Head, a oncology surgeon and the appalling display of racism at UCLA. And he sued them and won his lawsuit. This man is a surgeon and he was treated in this vile and disgusting manner. This speaks volumes to these racist whites mindset and what they lack in morals and integrity. They laughed and said it was a joke and expected the man to just sweep this under the rug. And yes the Skip Gates debacle with the police. And when the POTUS criticized the police by saying “The police acted stupidly” The news media and all the usual suspects, Fox News, CNN, and all the other hate mongers like Rush Limbaugh, and Bill O’Reilly came after him. And he had to have a beer summit with the racist jerks. That’s another example of being elite and not immune from racism.
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I want to throw that incident of Oprah being in Europe and wanting to purchase and expensive handbag and getting the frosty treatment by the saleswoman. Thinking that a black woman couldn’t afford such a high dollar luxury and refusing to sell the handbag to her. Not realizing the woman was the famous Oprah Winfrey, who she thought was just a N-word who had no business being in the high end store. That is another example of being elite and not being immune to racism.
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If I had ever gotten in trouble with the police as a teenager my mom would have shot me.
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Actor Forest Whitaker gets falsely accused for stealing a damn sandwich when he was going to buy yogurt in a high end bistro in New York and he is stopped and frisked.
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@ All
I deleted some comments about LKC. She can comment here, of course, but she cannot make it about herself unless her experience relates directly to the thread topic – in this case, elite Black experience and racism.
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@ Trojan Pam
I deleted your comment on Michael Brown as off topic.
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Mary Burrell
I want to throw that incident of Oprah being in Europe and wanting to purchase and expensive handbag and getting the frosty treatment by the saleswoman. Thinking that a black woman couldn’t afford such a high dollar luxury and refusing to sell the handbag to her.
———————————————————————————————-
I find myself horrified by the brutal tragic nature of this terrifying racist attack Oprah suffered. To be deprived of purchasing a $5000 handbag is not only a crime against humanity;
its a crime against the universe!
How many other black women have to suffer this way before WE DO SOMETHING!
Not One More!
NOT!
ONE!
MORE!
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“Actor Forest Whitaker gets falsely accused for stealing a damn sandwich when he was going to buy yogurt in a high end bistro in New York and he is stopped and frisked.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I remember that! Also around the same time frame, another Black celebrity was racially profiled at some boutique/shop (Macy’s??) as not being able to afford the merchandise – because his skin was too dark.
People are dumber than rocks!
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@ Abagond
I understand
@ Mary
I didn’t know about Forest Whittaker but I’m not surprised. Prior to Bill Cosby’s new “troubles” he was denied an opportunity to buy NBC (i’m assuming he had the money) and the list of rich and famous and educated blacks being treated like the rest of us is too long for any post
That should be proof positive to all black people (for the one millionth time) that no amount of money or titles or fame will completely shield you from racism. I remember Oprah being denied entrance to a store on Oak Street in Chicago (an expensive shopping area) because they didn’t recognize her.
The thing that irks me is our insistence (begging) on spending our money where we are not wanted. What is wrong with our thinking?
I think we deep down assume we’re not welcome in a whole lot of places anyway so we just go numb, dumb down, and pull out that wallet because we have to go to somebody’s store, right?
But the idea of spending BIG money at a racist establishment just chops my hide. I have to admit my sympathy is limited for a black person (like Oprah) who would literally beg to give tens of thousands of dollars to a racist store employee who doesn’t want to take it. (????)
At the end of the day (and our lives), after all the success and fame and money, we are still little black girls and little black boys begging someone (white) to like us and treat us right. .
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“I find myself horrified by the brutal tragic nature of this terrifying racist attack Oprah suffered. To be deprived of purchasing a $5000 handbag is not only a crime against humanity;
its a crime against the universe!”
LOL
I was just writing on my blog this:
I’ve been thinking about this all week. That trauma that that elite kid went through was important. It might be the only thing in his childhood that lets him know who he is and what his people have been through. Relatively innocuous racism may have it’s value. Like a polio vaccine. If people don’t go through that, that unifying theme is lost. The identity of the group and it’s loyalty to itself is lost. And that loyalty is the only thing that’s keeping the internalized racism from going totally rancid.
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@Trojan Pam: Very astute points.
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I read in the books about the Chinese who served blacks in Mississippi that the Chinese shopowners learned about the self-identified class differentiation among blacks and they took advantage of it to increase their business.
Middle class blacks in Jim Crow Mississippi (ie, those that had steady jobs or owned their homes) would be treated much better in the Chinese-owned stores than the poor sharecropper or casual labour customers. Those blacks recognized that the storeowners gave them much better service. That actually caused them to prefer shopping in the Chinese-owned stores rather than the black owned stores as they felt treated better. They didn’t “have” to shop in the black owned stores.
So the blacks who could afford to spend more went and spent in stores not owned by blacks. In a sense, although the blacks never saw the Chinese as white, they did see them as some kind of “surrogate white” that recognized that they are somehow of a higher class than most of the poor blacks out there.
I think this is still happening 50-100 years later. If blacks can afford it, many may feel a higher class recognition if they are allowed to shop / purchase services and treated better in a shop or business not owned by blacks. Would black-owned businesses differentiate their customers in that way (by getting blacks who can afford to spend in their businesses to patronize them more?
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@ Jefe
If the day came when we overcame our black inferiority complex (which is really a figment of our imagination courtesy of a white supremacy society and educational system)
we would revolutionize ourselves and our communities. Just imagine a day when black people no longer needed white validation or validation of ANY kind other than from each other. We would no longer allow our bodies, our sexuality, our minds, and our money to be used against us.
And that is why they keep that foot on our necks, because they know what happens when sleeping giants finally wake up from their nightmares
something different is definitely going to happen
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I think that is an advantage that recent immigrants have – they do not need white Anglo validation. But their children learn the “value” of this validation and by the next generation, it has been internalized in the psyche.
This happens to everyone. This has especially happened to people like the Grahams.
Is there ANY group out there which has successfully combatted that? Jews?
That is why education is so important. We need to examine what they are teaching kids. Maybe black communities can start after school and weekend education programmes to “unteach” what they are learning otherwise. But not just black communities – any community which does not want to be colonized by white Anglos.
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I grew up with black elites my neighborhood was considered the rich block. Although, most were middle class, and not truly rich. Having to be in all white areas most of my life you take the friends you can get. The ones who stand with you when you have to go to Marquette Park and get things thrown at you. The ones who stand in the park with you because the coach left you there, even if it is two of the blondish girls you possible wish in the situation not to be seen with. You stand with those who try to block out the old Polish women who are hurling the N -word at you even though you are only 10 or 11.
You end up in situations where kids are learning about racism and don’t quite get it yet, like some girls tormenting you with the N word and lies but trying to secretly kiss you. You, grow up with the horrible feeling that world is strange and polluted because other members of your ethnic group get to call you white, trader, oreo. When you know you are black, when you love your Mom and Dad and had never thought about being white. All because some people who barely talked to you think they know you.
You walk past color lines to get to school with your little sister who is five years younger. You dodge glass bottles being thrown at you and the pit of your stomach turns not for you but for your sister. You hope she doesn’t have to see this or is scarred by it. Yet, for some reason you endure, even when people think they have the right to tell you aren’t black but they don’t. You face down Bob Jones III and you tell him that his college stinks. His view a backward and that he should watch out about his soul first and you hit detention every day for a year.
You look back and you can’t cringe or shrink back in the face of overwhelming racism. You look forward and crawl through presumption and know you are black no matter who tries to tell you who they think you are.
You wear a suit, a three piece suit no matter what because you were told you represent black no matter where you go. Color first, identity last, cops can kill you because of that skin so don’t give them a reason too. Your parents give you that talk about how dangerous it is to have this skin color and be a boy.
I don’t care if it looks like I am trying to draw attention to me. What I wish for however, is that the black community would drop the Oreo thing. No one has a clue to what shoes another person trudge through. How one relates to aspect of things will always be filter through their own life experience. It is mostly what we have to draw on.
However, I still would rather be on the ground floor of an enterprising black start-up company.
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@KOT
but it seems that the Graham family did not do this with their kids.
Your story seems to corroborate that there is some problem with the self-admitted parenting efforts of the Grahams.
Is your message different?
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King of Trouble, that was beautiful. Here’s an appropriate term for you — gifted.
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Get the hell out of Chicago. I knew it was still that bad. Raleigh Durham is a cheap place to live, You can ditch the three piece suits. Good place for start ups. Durham’s 40% Black. Hang out at Duke or UNC to find partners.
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jefe
@KOT
you were told you represent black no matter where you go. Color first, identity last, cops can kill you because of that skin so don’t give them a reason too. Your parents give you that talk about how dangerous it is to have this skin color and be a boy.
but it seems that the Graham family did not do this with their kids.
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My parents never did it with us either; and I know why.
It is the paradox of the black parent. Black parents cannot reveal the truth about racism to their children without discrediting themselves as parents.
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“It is the paradox of the black parent. Black parents cannot reveal the truth about racism to their children without discrediting themselves as parents.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is this the reason you enjoy disrespecting black women here at every opportunity that avails itself?
?!!!!!Blackman!?????
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“It is the paradox of the black parent. Black parents cannot reveal the truth about racism to their children without discrediting themselves as parents.”
How so?
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Just Me
Is this the reason you enjoy disrespecting black women here at every opportunity that avails itself?
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What?
All have sinned and fallen short…
My point is, I understand why its so difficult for a black parent to tell their children the truth about the system of racism white supremacy they were born into; and as such why this knowledge functions as an effective foundation for forgiveness.
Im not sure who the paradox hurts more, the child or the parent?
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Do you mean, the parents can’t tell the kids because it shows how powerless the parents are? That’s how they’ve failed their child? They can’t adequately protect them?
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How Russians view elite Black Americans:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/arts_n_ideas/article/russian-satirist-takes-on-ukraine-western-powers/512485.html
Joe, you need some sun on those legs. Getting mighty pasty.
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Yes Linda, I can remember my parents punishing us for for “blocking a white persons fist with our faces.”
LOL
But the key to remember is they received the same “training” which in many cases is what allowed them to become “elite.”
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Yep, I’ve been in a family like that.
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@George Ryder:
That is absolutely false & doesn’t make any sense. I am educated and make good money and unlike lower class blacks, have to work around & for primarily Whites. This means I am smack dab living it everyday. I live in a middle/lower class area and I believe many whom are not as educated as me get the comfort of being around blacks work-wise, church-wise, socially, etc.
It doesn’t make sense for anyone to think being financially well-off benefits any of us in terms of how society operates. We face the ‘fight’ face on because we are directly working with the haters.
I am in an environment all day where the whites treat me as a black woman like they want no one to desire me, side with me, etc. While black men in my work environment can be friends amongst each other and others, I am constantly bombarded with an attitude from white men and women that I should be more maligned. Not only that but their biggest issue is for me to FEEL maligned. They’re uncomfortable with black men being friendly with black women, uncomfortable with black women being friendly with each other, we’re to be disliking by latinas, asians and everyone else and men of other races are not to like us at all ( ie. talk to us too friendly) or whites get ‘uncomfortable’.
Black men are fought against however whites want black women maligned. At least, this has been my experience and what I see going on.
So tell me then how being highly educated and well-off benefits me? I also feel I’m in a struggle to hold on to my job no matter how hard I work at the job.
So what you’re claiming is absolutely FALSE
Can you imagine the HATE, resentment and attitude Oprah, Obama and others face HEAD ON DAILY?
puhleaseeee
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re: George Ryder
I’ll get it back on topic jefe.
Anyone who is black will not be entirely protected from racism, period, it’s just reality.
but i think people who come from elite backgrounds are probably shielded more from it’s effects than those who are less privileged.
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“I am in an environment all day where the whites treat me as a black woman like they want no one to desire me, side with me, etc.”
Are those overt things they do? Or is it more like a vibe in the air that’s hard to pin down that has you walking on eggshells?
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I don’t walk on eggshells and it’s more like an attitude. Having the black male and others to slight me, a general attitude and pattern of behavior showing me that they want black women maligned. It is what it is and I’ve stopped trying to understand or question it. It’s not just white men, but white women also that often behave this way.
While people are people and no group is “nice” and there are issues in most social environments no matter what race, “elite” blacks and educated blacks whom often are around whites a lot are in no way “shielded” from racism, in fact it is us/them whom are smack dab receiving it daily and more pervasively.
While “elite” blacks may have less financial issues, they will deal a lot more head on with “haters” who believe blacks shouldn’t have access or opportunities or certain rights in society due solely on our racial characteristics which we have no control over.
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@Linda Keres Carter:
Does this mean you’re saying blacks are becoming “what they hate”? How are “whites” in your view?
I’m curious: with this kind of attitude, wouldn’t you be open to considering if you might have engaged in a “refined form of racism”, because that could be being “complicit in victimization”, which sounds like something you seek to avoid? Or have you considered it thoroughly, and seen it not to be the case? Note that I don’t know if you have engaged in such — I am just asking.
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@LKC: I want to further emphasize that last point that that post is not an accusation of racism. Rather, it’s because from what I’ve heard of you, it seems that from your experience you are in the unique position of being a “white” person who would have gone through something that looks to be (although I have to qualify that since I’ve experienced neither) at least equivalent to what Blacks have been through in terms of amount and type of repression as it would be upon a person, and therefore would be able to consider whatever accusations are made in light of having been on the receiving end in a manner not many could, and I wonder: have you done this?
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they may face the haters head on, but the haters can’t hurt them to the same degree. they may get called the N word or be left out of certain social circles, but they certainly won’t deal with the same crushing oppression that some experience in less privileged corners of our society.
White supremacy is white supremacy regardless of your income level. It just manifests differently depending on one’s circumstances. From personal experience, I can attest to this. Stop with your bulls**** and seemingly ‘dumb’ questions and pustulations. This is what I mean when I say white people are ‘dumb’. It is an act to put one off kilter. Well George, you can’t con a con, I’m on to you. I barely respond to these twits because they are not interested in learning anything, they just want to spew a load of s***t for whatever reason. Perhaps for s***ts and giggles or they ‘really feel for us ‘culluds’? Who knows? I for one could not give a s***. They run the gamut between the ‘allies’ and the blatantly racist goofs such as bliff and Randy and their ilk. Their pretense at being ‘intellectual’ is hilarious(perhaps that is their intent, hilarity?). Ultimately, everything is about them. That is why they feel they can question and countermand black people when the relay their lived experiences. They can go shove their concerns up their anuses.
White supremacy is probably worse for black folk who are aware as to how it works. I don’t care if you are a bum laying on the street or the CEO of a company. Tell me George, is it a ‘white’ thing to rate one’s level of abuse meted out by this system of white supremacy? Good day to you!
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“…they may face the haters head on, but the haters can’t hurt them to the same degree. they may get called the N word or be left out of certain social circles, but they certainly won’t deal with the same crushing oppression that some experience in less privileged corners of our society.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Privilege SPEAK:
A typical white clueless person deciding that they know our reality better than we do. Your cluelessness is wearing thin here and beginning to piss others off, besides me. You should have taken the advice to read more and post (much) less.
You have a penchant for often not knowing what you’re talking about – and subjecting people here to your nonsense. People are becoming more and more tired of YOU. Just keep doing what you’re doing. We’ll see if you last indefinitely!
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@ Alicia
I completely agree with your statement that whites want black women maligned. I can feel this hostility everywhere I go especially if I am perceived as attractive.
One bit of evidence that black females are under attack was the Psychology Today article about black females being the “least attractive.” What would be the point of such an article by a national magazine? Who were they trying to convince? The image of black females is under attack in tv, movies, music, and books.
The reason for this I think has to do with the woman being the MOTHER of every nation or group. She’s the one who nurtures the children and sets the foundation for their self-esteem and values. If you can destroy her, you can destroy everyone, the men, the women and the children. Also, the “system” wants to homosexualize black males (to render them impotent as men fighting for their women and children and nation)
and so you must make the black female a despicable character so the black male won’t love her, sex her or breed with her and will cling to other men and his enemies. And he DEFINITELY will not defend her. He won’t even know what the dentition of manhood IS.
See, whites understand the importance of the female image, that’s why they put the white female image on a pedestal because if she is beautiful then the products of her womb are valuable. And that’s why they USED to make black females the quintessential mother figure (mammy) because they knew she was the FIRST woman, the FIRST mother of all mankind
And that’s why they are programming us to think just the opposite because they are refining the system and no longer need the ‘black mammies.” We have outlived our usefulness and as we become more ambitious and more educated we have to be cut down to a manageable size lest we teach our children to do the same.
You can see the ill effects of this brain-trashing about black females throughout the black community. And being a black elite female doesn’t mean you won’t suffer from the same attacks. Sometimes you are attacked more.
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Hi Trojan and Herneith:
it’s been suggested that one of the persons responding to me is a troll so I will not waste my time or energy on him/her.
In terms of specifically anti-black racism, no matter what class we are, we will unfortunately have to deal with it. However, those of us whom are educated or ambitious or a part of the “elite” ( guess that would mean wealthy often times have to be smack dab around…well.. in white society.
growing up, I would go to musuems, and other places, then there was college and now corporate america. I’ve always had to struggle and keep continuously building myself up because of this. From hateful glares and certain attitudes to college and the workplace where certain attitudes would let you know they didn’t feel you should have access. We all know what it’s like in corporate America. I’ve even seen this with Black male managers dealing with a culture of disrespect from their workers and team-mates. ( white, hispanic and others) which was very weird to me.
It’s a hateful environment that many of us unfortunately have to navigate through just to live our lives.
I think for many of us at a certain age we come to just say “it is what it is”. I still question the behavior, wonder if they’re really serious. Can they really hold hate and anger for us merely because of how we look? I am learning to no longer question it anymore and as much as possible socialize in diverse environments.
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@Trojan Pam
It’s a major part of what I deal with in the workplace and when around whites. Strangely enough, I never dealt with it until my college years, although there were instances before then when I was around Whites.
There’s a constant vibe and attitude I notice where they do not want black women desired, to feel desired or be supported. I try to say to myself that “hey, they also don’t want me/us in our jobs, to be educated and the like” but the fact that they want black women maligned (and to feel maligned) still gets to me sometimes.
I could never imagine anyone giving off that attitude constantly to white women or any other race, especially acting upset and uncomfortable particularly when a man from her own race is around.
Racism, hate and bullying period is so EVIL and SICK. I’m glad I don’t think like this, however it’s a constant struggle to fight off the evil thrown at me daily during the work week. Spiritually, emotionally I do feel it’s a constant battle. Most likely for many blacks who are in corporate America or certain environments. I have just learned to surround myself with diversity as much as possible in as many ways as I can.
My heart honestly hurts for young black women who do not have the comfort of being able to be exposed to diverse enough areas to see that most black women are not single. That black men, like men of all races, like and often go with the women of their own race. That many black men still are raising their kids and that black girls and women are far from undesirable or ugly or unwanted.
What’s also creepy is how, as you said and I’ve seen in corporate America, white men want to homosexualize Black men. It’s a constant attitude too which is so weird. It may be why in many white environments Black men will be a bit more accepted, compared to black girls and women. I’ve seen this since I’ve been in the working world. Black men get attitudes thrown at them but a different sort of attitude is thrown at Black women. One that says “you’re not to be liked, you’re not to be a ‘real’ part of this group. I’ve had many situations where when in group settings, whites were focused on me or other black women, although black males were around.
That’s perhaps “racist, sexualized racism”. One main part of the attitude of when Whites act like they want black men to be gay is that it’s so black women can be un-coupled/un-liked/alone which really gets to me. I no longer feel comfortable frequenting or socializing in heavily white areas. Life is too short to deal with such discomfort and hate.
I go to diverse areas where I see tons of black couples, some black women/hispanic men couples and tons of Asians and Hispanics whom are going about their business, allowing me to shop, eat and just breathe & be without dealing with evil hateful vibes.
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I know I wrote a lot above but I just wanted to mention what you posted @Trojan Pam. About the reasons for sexualized racism. It’s so vital and important for many black women to know this because it’s like a constant kick at our spirits in white supremacist environments.
I wish it could be in a book or something that people could read and arm themselves with to understand what’s going on. like some sort of manual for “blacks in corporate america”. Maybe there are some but none that deal with dealing with racialized sexualism.
We all know there’s always been a fight against black manhood but the societal tug & attack against black womenhood to me has never been really discussed. Everything is usually about black men, the police force brutality, etc.
I just wish there could have been something for me to let me know WHY blacks in white corporate America often feel they can’t even be friendly with each other openly, let alone support other blacks. This hurt me tremendously for years since Asians and others are allowed be help each other, and doing this on the job is extremely important.
I wish there was more info on blacks sharing their experiences and how to navigate in white corporate America and in white environments. .
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@ Alicia
I suspect you and I could swap a ton of “war stories.” It took me YEARS to begin to understand what I was experiencing, the unprovoked dislike (and I have a friendly face, believe it or not despite my postings!) and so I could not understand it at first. I got a lot of grief from white females because I had (have) a very nice shape but I couldn’t understand that either because I was no raving beauty, I just had my strong points like most women do.
I think it got worse as I got older (or maybe, since I wasn’t working in corporate america and lived in a black neighborhood I was shielded from a lot of this but I remember many instances where white females would mean-mug me, deliberately bump into me, stare at me, or act fake-friendly, touching my hair without permission, or asking inappropriate questions. When I was young, I was too naive and inexperience to recognize such attacks for what they were or to have any ammunition to deal with it.
Even with white males there would be this strange, sometimes barely disguised hostility as though they disliked me because I was attractive. I’ll never forget the time I was riding on public transportation and there was this black female, a little younger than me, and she was gorgeous. I mean, gorgeous, and I noticed this white male staring at her but she couldn’t see him and the look on his face was pure hostility and I was like, what the H, she’s beautiful, why would that make a NORMAL man angry?
And so in my typically analytical way, I started putting things together best I could but it took a lot of years and observations and hearing from other black females for me to draw some conclusions, only one of which I’ll post here since this isn’t my blog and it might be off-topic.
But to be ON topic, I have an older sister who has a PhD and very successful in her own right and she talks about the white people she works with who think she’s “uppity” (isn’t that what they call First Lady Michelle Obama?)
And so ONE (out of many) conclusions I came to was some whites ENVY black people who have navigated this horribly self-esteem destroying system and manage to come out at least looking somewhat intact. The gorgeous black female wasn’t supposed to be “gorgeous” (and probably better looking than the woman he had at home. My sister wasn’t supposed to come out of a black educational system and achieve as much as she has. I wasn’t supposed to walk around with a confident stride, looking like I owned the world (I’ve actually had people say this to me, although I don’t see it) while so many whites don’t feel good about themselves —
and isn’t that REALLY in part what motivates racism in the first place? People with high self-esteem don’t need to make anyone else inferior, do they? I don’t care about the racists with money, money and self-esteem aren’t necessarily connected but why would anyone feel the need to harm someone or be nasty to a total stranger just because they have a different skin color UNLESS that person is unhappy in their own SKIN?
and this isn’t just the black elite who are a threat, it’s black people simply laughing and having a good time and looking like they are enjoying life (and living the good life) in spite of everything (some) whites have done to make sure just the opposite is true.
Leanita McClain, the first black editor of the Chicago Tribune wrote about this in her columns during the election of Chicago’s first and only black mayor, Harold Washington and she said, “Happy black people make for unhappy white people.” And at the time I thought that was PROFOUND because older black people talked about how much some whites hated seeing black people “happy.”
Now, what kind of S is that? I”m not saying ALL white people (because I don’t believe all white people want to see black people with nothing) but there is a substantial number of white people that feel THREATENED and ANTAGONIZED by very little that black people have and do and especially when it appears that a black person has something either they don’t have or don’t have enough of. So we know black elites are catching H that we know nothing about
And so black females, despite the burden of dealing with racism AND sexism, are still some of the most intelligent, ambitious, hard-working and spiritually strongest human beings on the planet and this BOTHERS a lot of people, including, unfortunately, some black males AND even sometimes, other black females (who have internalized the white society’s attitudes).
When you said you wish there was some info out here about this, I have written four books about this, SInce Abagond has allowed me to mention my books before, there are three books of mine I’d like to suggest, one is “Black Love Is A Revolutionary Act” and “The Interracial Con Game” and “The Beauty Con Game” where I fully explain why black females are under severe attack. I hope you’ll check them out and share the info if you find them constructive.
you will find on my blog (just click on my name).
(sorry, all, about the long post)
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meant to add, the books also deal with the mistreatment that black males experience.
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@ Alicia
Early next year I’m starting a Black Female Boot Camp where black females will be able to share information and develop coping strategies. If you’re interested sign my mailing list.
(I hope it’s alright to add this to my comment, Abagond).
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“it’s probably better to just wait until someone asks my opinion & stay silent otherwise right?”
That’s what the white girl’s learned decades ago. But behind closed doors you can cut loose all you want. That’s what you’re there for.
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This ‘here’ is public. What Pam might do with you behind closed doors is y’all’s business.
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Just trying to fill you in on the rules of engagement, but if that’s going over your head, you probably don’t need them.
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Yeah, that personal story is likely annoying. The only white man I ever met who could handle it was gay. But it’s not just a personal story, It’s endemic to the whole subculture, and why you gotta stay in your place expressing any opinion on the subject of race. If it’s really good, though, and you just feel you gotta say it, just find someone you can ghost write for. I did that for years.
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Your dad sounds like a simp?
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No, not foolish, just un- masculine; it is the behavior of females.
Clarity of thought is the product of exposing it to potential criticism and being STRONG ENOUGH to consider the grounds for its rejection by those who do not share it; this includes possibly taking a punch for it.
Leave the gossip to the females.
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@Trojan Pam and Alicia
You ladies have raised and discussed some very valid points in my experience with the aggression of white people ,particularly in regards to how they effect
relationships and sexuality.
I think the problem is that albinism causes physical and mental defects.
I lot of the abuse i experience seems directly related to my presistence reject of white people on moral and atheistic basis.
no many people would easily agree about morality.
but if you start pointing out how ugly many white people are compared to black and brown people ,how generally atheistically inferior pale skin is to black and brown,
then you are considered wrong ,rude and even racist.
Many of those white males and females you mention know they look inferior to many if not most black and brown people, but instead of trying to be honest and
improve themselves ,they lie ,blame and attack other groups of people who are neither at fault nor responsible.
And this seems to be the standard option amongst albinic populations in their relations to meleniated populations.
Can really blame them,they are mostly powerless to change their phenotype,especially when it is a fundamental part of your identity.
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There is also black people and their cooperation with white people ,for example I regularly encounter very attractive black females that immediately avoid reject and or verbal abuse me,and I can usually tell them by the degree of hair processing i.e. rejecting since childhood their natural hair texture.
Or the fact that a large percentage of black people do this ,refuse to talk about it i.e either remaining extremely silent or threatening or reacting violently, and also insist on practicing a religion imposed on them again the same response if questioned.
I was recently listing to a pro black net radio program and the black male announcer said that after reading and researching black history as well as the origins or Christianity if had to reject Christianity.
that’s the first time I’ve ever heard a black person express it in that way that reasonably.
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Yes.I am interested. Your site is amazing TrojanPam because it gets right to the crux of why racism is practiced, which many of us still ponder and question because of the outrageous behavior that accompanies it. I put my email in the box: “Follow Blog via Email”, is that correct?
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Re: @ Alicia
Early next year I’m starting a Black Female Boot Camp where black females will be able to share information and develop coping strategies. If you’re interested sign my mailing list.
(I hope it’s alright to add this to my comment, Abagond).
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@TrojanPam and others,
This is right on topic and why “elite” blacks will face the same issues, if not worse, unfortunately, in terms of racism. This is one thing that I, and many other blacks, have to learn as we get older. It’s a hurtful process understanding racist behavior. Someone mentioned on here before that we weren’t supposed to make it and why racists also loathe if not only if you make it but if you feel good about yourself as well. I could never understand why in college, even in passing, it was as if the racists felt we should feel awful about ourselves. Why many think black women shouldn’t have self-esteem and be confident and so on, there’s so much sickness involved in certain psycho human behavior, especially when it comes to bullying or racism. The issue is though for any of us who are considered “black” or any group not liking by a hateful person is to navigate this system with spirit, heart & mind intact. Any event dealing with “coping” as you said you will hold is extremely important to me.
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re::
And so ONE (out of many) conclusions I came to was some whites ENVY black people who have navigated this horribly self-esteem destroying system and manage to come out at least looking somewhat intact. The gorgeous black female wasn’t supposed to be “gorgeous” (and probably better looking than the woman he had at home. My sister wasn’t supposed to come out of a black educational system and achieve as much as she has. I wasn’t supposed to walk around with a confident stride, looking like I owned the world (I’ve actually had people say this to me, although I don’t see it) while so many whites don’t feel good about themselves —
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@TrojanPam,
I have your site bookmarked and will check for those books soon as well. Any books on blacks navigating and coping in this system I am finding are vital. Especially when we are the only one or only black female or only black male in such an environment.
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Re:
When you said you wish there was some info out here about this, I have written four books about this, SInce Abagond has allowed me to mention my books before, there are three books of mine I’d like to suggest, one is “Black Love Is A Revolutionary Act” and “The Interracial Con Game” and “The Beauty Con Game” where I fully explain why black females are under severe attack. I hope you’ll check them out and share the info if you find them constructive.
you will find on my blog (just click on my name).
(sorry, all, about the long post)
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@Mbeti,
Unfortunately, there are. No matter what class, there will be some who feel they need to attack other blacks to stay afloat or just bought into the system. Let’s face fact, for 500+ years under direct oppression & now under indirect ( probably not the right term) oppression, we have been taught to hate ourselves.
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Re:
Mbeti
There is also black people and their cooperation with white people ,for example I regularly encounter very attractive black females that immediately avoid reject and or verbal abuse me,and I can usually tell them by the degree of hair processing i.e. rejecting since childhood their natural hair texture.
Or the fact that a large percentage of black people do this ,refuse to talk about it i.e either remaining extremely silent or threatening or reacting violently, and also insist on practicing a religion imposed on them again the same response if questioned.
I was recently listing to a pro black net radio program and the black male announcer said that after reading and researching black history as well as the origins or Christianity if had to reject Christianity.
that’s the first time I’ve ever heard a black person express it in that way that reasonably.
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Sadly, there is a population of ignorant Americans who refuse to evolve, embracing the human ignorance of our past that deprived peaceful, loving people from experiencing and fully enjoying their vision for L, L, and Happiness.
Sadly, I believe some racial ignorance is fueled by a significant population of nationally popular American recording artists who offer our society music performances embracing community and gun violence, drug abuse, disrespect for everyone under our sun, including themselves; as well as writing lyrics characterizing the maternal half of our population as less than human ^itches and ^hores unworthy of respect.
I grew up in the 60s-70s listening to beautiful music composed by American music artists of African descent who sang about peace, love and unity, as well as offering praise, love, admiration and respect for women. These artists conditioned *young me* to believe my music friends were peaceful caring people well deserving of my respect and admiration.
I’m not sure what messages today’s youngsters are receiving when listening to popular music performers offering angry, rude, nasty, anti-social music performances characterizing our moms, sisters, grandmas, daughter, aunts and nieces as less than human people unworthy of respect.
Peace.
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Wealthy or poor, Blacks are stilled considered inferior (as a “coon”) to the masses of White people. I do NOT waste my valuable time or energy in proving the racism of white people. Most Whites know that they’re racist. My time and energy on American racism is exerted on informative forums like this one.
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Negro National Anthem which has been with us since 1900.
http://www.naacp.org/pages/naacp-history-lift-evry-voice-and-sing
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEVjvyWNhXC0EAAFUnnIlQ;_ylc=X1MDMTM1MTE5NTY4NwRfcgMyBGZyA3locy1tb3ppbGxhLTAwMwRncHJpZANDSTRTRTN6elJvcURvR2I1U2FXSVZBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwM5BG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMxBHBxc3RyA0xpZnQgZXZlcnkgdm9pY2UgYW5kIHNpbmcEcHFzdHJsAzI1BHFzdHJsAzQyBHF1ZXJ5A2xpZnQlMjBldmVyeSUyMHZvaWNlJTIwYW5kJTIwc2luZyUyMGx5cmljcwR0X3N0bXADMTQ3Mzc5NjM3NAR1c2VfY2FzZQM-?p=lift+every+voice+and+sing+lyrics&fr2=sa-gp-search&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Lft+every+voice+and+sing&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-003
Any person who puts their life into the hands of another should expect nothing in return.
Why do Blacks think Whites are going to “give” them anything?
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@Allen Shaw
“Why do Blacks think Whites are going to “give” them anything?”
In the opening paragraphs of Dr. Martin Luther King’s iconic “I Have A Dream” speech are these words:
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm
I would be happy if White people and their allies just got out of the way so Black people could take care of their own needs.
Freedom and Justice would be a good down payment.
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@Michael Cooper
Speak your truth!
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