The Dominican Republic (DR) has roughly the same history as the eastern US: Whites wipe out Natives, bring in Black slaves, who are then freed in the 1800s. Yet race turned out differently.
Two main things make it different:
1. No One Drop Rule:
Like in the rest of Latin America, mixed-race people are seen as neither Black nor White but something in between. In the DR, roughly 73% are in between. Dominicans use a rainbow of colour terms, like:
- blanca oscura – dark white
- trigueñita – wheat-coloured (Zoe Saldana)
- morena – brown (Amara La Negra)
- india – Indian (native to the Americas)
Roughly 16% count as White, 11% as Black – even though 90% of Dominicans have African blood.
The rich and powerful are mostly white or light-skinned.
Race takes class into account too: money whitens. Those in the upper class see themselves as White no matter how dark their skin.
2. Antihaitianismo:
Unlike the US, the DR was taken over by a Black country: Haiti. Haiti freed the slaves in 1822 and ruled for 22 years. In the early 1900s, the US occupation brought in Haitians as cheap labour. Haitians became the Despised Other. This led to – and was strengthened by – the Parsley Massacre of 1937 in which Trujillo ordered the killing of all Haitians in the north-west to help “whiten” the country.
By world standards Haiti and the DR are sister countries. The island was not even divided till 200 years after Columbus. But through the lens of antihaitianismo they are opposites:
- The DR is good: White, culturally Spanish and Catholic.
- Haiti is bad: Black, African and follows voodoo.
Haitians are seen as belonging to a different, lesser race.
The irony is that the Parsley Massacre was called that because the only way to tell dark-skinned Haitians and Dominicans apart was from how they said the word for parsley.
And, as it turns out, Haiti is about 80% Catholic, the DR only 69%.
Antihaitianismo was pushed by the white and light-skinned people at the top till the late 1960s. Trujillo, despite (or maybe because of) his Haitian grandmother, pushed it hardest of all. The history taught at school is still screwed up by it.
Because of antihaitianismo, most dark-skinned Dominicans see themselves as “just” Dominican. They are far more nationalistic than Blacks in the US and Jamaica. They say their dark skin comes from the Indians who lived before the time of Columbus.
Native Dominicans, known as the Taino or Arawak Indians, were wiped out in a genocide that shocked Europe in the 1500s. By the 1800s there were none left.
- Genetically, 9.4% of the mitochondrial DNA (mother’s line) and 1% of the Y-DNA (father’s line) in the DR goes back to the Tainos. The gene pool is about 6% Native.
- Culturally, Taino ways of fishing, farming, building and healing live on in the countryside, even if they are looked down on in the city.
Asian Dominicans:
- most are West Asian (Lebanese, etc), and apparently count as White,
- some are East Asian (0.5% of Dominicans are Chinese), but
- few are South Asian, unlike in the English-speaking countries of the Caribbean.
Source: Henry Louis Gates Jr (2011);”Africans in the Americas” (1994) by Michale L. Conniff; “Culture Smart! Dominican Republic” (2010) by Ginnie Bedggood and Ilana Benady; Wikipedia (2014).
See also:
- Welcome to Hispanic Heritage Month 2014
- Race in: Brazil, US, New York, French New Orleans
- One Drop Rule
- Tainos
- Spanish racial identity in 1492
- Dominican Americans
- Haiti: a brief history
- Afro-Latinos
- colourism
- internalized racism
- The future of racial stratification in the US – as moving towards a Latin American model
- Trujillo
Informative post. Added to my learning.
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SMH at those Sammy Sosa pics. What a damn shame.
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Genetically, 9.4% of the mitochondrial DNA (mother’s line) and 1% of the Y-DNA (father’s line) in the DR goes back to the Tainos.
—————————————————————————————
How is this determined if all the Tainos were wiped out?
Did they dig up a Taino skeleton and do a DNA test on it?
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Unfortunately, the historical racial attitude that we see among the Dominicans and Haitians can be seen among the Kriols and Garinagu (Garifuna) in Belize (and California) and, to no surprise, can be seen among the Creoles and dark-skinned Blacks in Louisiana (and elsewhere) as well.
Former track star, Marion Jones (Kriol-Belizean American)
Note: Jones holds dual citizenship with the United States and Belize
Garifuna dancers at a festival (Garinagu-Belizean)
Actress Raven Symone (American of Creole heritage)
Fashion model (African-American)
If one of these light or dark-skinned Blacks (that includes famous Blacks too) is seen walking through a typical White suburb the 911 call to the operator would be “there’s a suspicious-looking Black person walking up and down my street. Please send a patrol unit, quick”. That’s the reality of it all.
Black people – Love your African roots.
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People always imagine Creole as light skinned. The very first Creole are dark skinned free slaves. They speak in different languages as French,Wolof,Pigdin and Black English. The next generation form a new culture as Creole. The mixture and other stuff can later on the line. Parsely was excuse to kill dark skinned people. Both parties contains a strong accent. This cruel act is whitewash to extreme..@Michael Cooper-A white man or woman dropping the old N word seem more effected to wake them up.
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Taino’s still exist, but now only by way of mixed race. Some say mixed race is no longer either race, others say that mixed race is both races.
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Michael Cooper said:
“Black people – Love your African roots.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Abagond,
I would love to see a series of posts on why Black people should love and be proud of who/what we are and from whence we came.
How about that?
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Yeah! …I would like to see that as well! Or optionally a post on why they should NOT?
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Native Dominicans, known as the Taino or Arawak Indians, were wiped out in a genocide that shocked Europe in the 1500s. By the 1800s there were none left.
My understanding is that many of these indigenous people travelled to the Caribbean and settled there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Caribs
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BTW, what is the story with Sammy Sosa
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“The DR is good: White, culturally Spanish and Catholic.
Haiti is bad: Black, African and follows voodoo.
Haitians are seen as belonging to a different, lesser race.
The irony is that the Parsley Massacre was called that because the only way to tell dark-skinned Haitians and Dominicans apart was from how they said the word for parsley.
And, as it turns out, Haiti is about 80% Catholic, the DR only 69%.”
after reading that i gave up on dominicans.
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Sammy Sousa hates his black skin and resorted to skin lightening. His mind needs to liberate his enslaved mind. So sick.
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I need to rephrase my previous post about Sammy Sousa i meant he needs to liberate his enslaved mind.
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Is it me?
or is there something very “gay” about men who get facial cosmetic surgery?
Sosa was not a bad looking dude, he had a great smile; Michael Jackson too.
What is up with that?
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I have to agree with the general consensus here and say the Sammy Sosa looked better the way God made him. WDA?
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@ Just Me
That is pretty broad. Please give an example of what you mean.
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There is another more insiduous form of racism at work here. I am surprised that Abagond missed it. I was checking out these two countries on the same island with similar populations (Haiti around 10.7 million and DR with approximately 10 million), and then I found one thing totally off. DR’s GDP was listed at $5,763 per person, while Haiti’s was listed at $473.3. I checked it again, but there it was on Wikipedia. Why would DR’s GDP be more than 12 times Haiti’s?
Then I concluded that it must be RACISM. Perhaps it was racism by the economists who try to underreport black countries’ GDPs to make black people look poorer. Perhaps it was the lingering effects of historical racism back from the days of Trujillo (though that was more than 50 years ago). And Perhaps it was internal racism that made Haitians feel they weren’t good enough. Finally, perhaps it was a racist world conspiracy to cause constant poverty in Haiti. There even seems to be ecological racism in the form of natural disasters that always strike only one side of the island. Most likely it was ALL OF THE ABOVE! There’s no way you could blame any Haitians for what happened to their country. They are innocent victims of white, and, in this case, colored aggression. It was only natural then that, “In 2013, Haiti called for European nations to pay reparations for slavery and established an official reparations commission.”
Since colored people would still consider themselves white in DR, even though they would be considered Black in the US, I think we can call it white agression, even if it was perpetrated mostly by people of color like Trujillo.
One question, Abagond, you seem to make a big deal about the colored people not being truly black. What would you estimate your white admixture to be? (Or is that an overly personal question?.. you know my race, so I’m just curious. Maybe you’ve posted that before).
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I’m referring to studies (posts) of ancient African based philosophies, cultures, ceremonies, traditions, rites of passage, beliefs, religions, political styles and systems of governing, attitudes regarding ownership of land, people, ideas, how criminals were dealt with, marriages vs divorce, homosexuality, cooperation versus competition, how children are raised and educated, nature versus nurture, etc, etc.
It seems I’m talking about African culture… the culture that has been systematically removed from our consciousness that has been replaced with Western ways and ideals that’s not, (in my opinion) particularly suited to us as Black descendants of captives, slaves and oppressed Africans living in a racist system currently dominating the world.
We are/were much, much more than the past and present popular WHITE CULTURE would have us believe about ourselves. We are far more than entertainers – athletes, actors, enablers and other participants of westernized living and thought, existing in a reality that is not innately our own and not of our own making.
I sometimes wonder what and how another Africa, in a parallel universe on a parallel Earth might be today if the white invaders were somehow repelled or had never stepped foot on that continent. But I digress..
I’m simply asking you to write a series about Africa, and African people in a DIFFERENT way. A way that might turn our collective hearts back toward our homeland. Or at the very least, give some of us a needed educational or knowledge LIFT of the varied cultural richness we all come from.
Thanks!
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^^^^^
OOps, that last post was meant for Abagond.
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One question, Abagond, you seem to make a big deal about the colored people not being truly black. What would you estimate your white admixture to be? (Or is that an overly personal question?.. you know my race, so I’m just curious. Maybe you’ve posted that before).
I wonder, even if he did say it what it would matter? Particularly to commenters brought up in the US where this one drop rule exists. Even you said it yourself. Instead, I would like to change the question, round some. What do YOU think when it is revealed that a person who self identifies as black has a significant amount of white in them? This question is for those black people that do not look bi-racial. What would you say if they started to say that actually, due to their genetic make up, they ARE bi-racial, would you accept that?
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Abagond @ “Native Dominicans, known as the Taino or Arawak Indians, were wiped out in a genocide that shocked Europe in the 1500s. By the 1800s there were none left.
Genetically, 9.4% of the mitochondrial DNA (mother’s line) and 1% of the Y-DNA (father’s line) in the DR goes back to the Tainos. The gene pool is about 6% Native.”
Linda says,
Abagond, the Tainos were not completely wiped out by the 1800s.
As I mentioned to you on the Taino thread, Many ran to the central mountains, like in Jamaica, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic and formed the original “Maroon” or cimarrónes villages.
Many times, the Tainos were re-classified so that the Spanish could defy the Church and continue to use them as slave labour.
Taino survival was different island to island and those who were intermix, were reclassified racially.
The Tainos were classified in the “Free Colored” category in Puerto Rico
“Our country’s natives seem to have been typed as “Indians” until the beginning of the XIXth century when Governor don Toribio Montes, faced with the difficulty of fixing ethnic origins, banded all the non-whites together under the title of free colored people (pardos). ”
*The results of the Census were the following:
Year 1771 – Year 1778
Whites…………… 31,951 – 46,756
Indians………….. 1,756 – 2,302
Free Colored……… 24,164 – 34,867
Free Negroes……… 4,747 – 7,866
Mulato Slaves…….. 3,343 – 4,657
Negro Slaves……… 4,249- 6,603
*Loida Figueroa, The Native Issue, Colonization of Puerto Rico
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/304.html
The “Indians” category contained Tainos who still lived in isolated villages in the central mountains. (and they still live there today)
By repeating the lies of the white American historians by saying the “Tainos are extinct”, you are helping to suppress the real history of the true Caribbean West Indians.
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Also, there was more than 1 ethnic West Indian group living in the Caribbean.
Many people in the Dominican Republic have Native American DNA that is not found in any of the other islands because there were numerous Native American ethnic groups living in the Caribbean.
The real Arawaks (aka Tainos) are alive and well today living in countries that border the Caribbean (Suriname, Guyana, etc)
Lokono Arawaks of Suriname:
( and of course, the women’s tatas are censored)
the Arima Caribs still live in Trinidad. (they are mostly mixed race)
“DNA testing on descendants of the indigenous peoples in Arima has confirmed very strong ancestral links to Africa and to Native American Indians.
This was the finding of a National Geographic Genographic Project which was conducted on some 25 members of the 600-strong Santa Rosa First Peoples (Carib) Community sometime in July 2012.”
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/featured-news/A-home-for-the-Caribs-204197581.html
Anne may know more about this- my understanding is that the Arima Caribs, are trying to get themselves de-listed as “extinct”
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correction: I meant to say “and of course, the women’s tatas are Not censored)
it would be great if historians would discuss specific Arawak ethnic groups, instead of lumping them under the 1 Taino/Arawak designation.
It was the Lucayans of the Bahamas, that Christopher Columbus first encountered, and enslaved. He even took about 40,000 of them to Hispaniola (aka island of Haiti/Dominican Republic) and other islands as slaves, which depopulated the islands of the Bahamas.
There were other groups of Tainos/Arawaks living on each island, as well as the Caribs.
Many people in the Dominican Republic have Native American DNA that is not found on any of the other islands.
Side note: many of the survivors of the Seminole War in Florida, the “black Seminoles” settled in Andros Islands Bahamas, thus bringing back Native American blood to the Bahamas.
“Chief Kenadgie arrived at New Providence Island, Bahamas, via dugout canoe on September 29, 1819, accompanied by several others, including an interpreter described as “an Indian of mixed blood.” The interpreter may have been Abraham, a Black Seminole who often negotiated on behalf of the Seminoles with Euroamericans as Chief Micanopy’s personal interpreter.”
The settlement of Red Bays, where the critical mass of Black Seminole descendants reside, is located on the northwestern tip of Andros, one of the Family Islands of the Bahamas.” Bowlegs is a common last name of the Seminole descendants.
http://www.africanaheritage.com/HowardBlackSeminolesexc.asp
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Thank you LInda
Your post confirms much more expansively on what I tried to say in brief above.
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@Linda: Thanks for this information greatly appreciated.
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@Anne: LOL @ “WDA” Exactly. I had to look that up.
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Learning how anti-black the culture is in the Dominican Republic i can see how Sammy Sosa developed the self hate he has for his African features his skin and hair. It’s very tragic.
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Kiwi:
Don’t insult your fellow Chinese. GDP (especially PPP) is great in Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore and Taiwan, and it is skyrocketing on the Mainland. (Are you saying I missed an important trend in Haiti?)
Anyway, I may go back someday. The U.S. has a lot going for it, but it’s depressing to see the country going downhill. Can’t you see that it’s going downhill? I thought even lefties could see it pretty clearly by now. Do you think ever larger Democratic party majorities will save the U.S.?
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Kiwi:
That was my point–that by referring to China, you were cherry-picking data, rather than looking at Chinese people as a whole.
Korea suffered at least as much under imperialism as China did. They had a civil war which was much more destructive, in relative terms, than the Chinese civil war. The reason Chinese in China today are, on average, much poorer than South Koreans, has nothing to do with Western imperialism a century ago and everything to do with bad government that didn’t allow people to make money, and punished them for doing so (until about 20 years ago).
In any event, you are parroting politically correct lines, but do you really believe them? This line of reasoning seeks excuses for all differences about groups of people and tries to blame everything on racism, imperialism, etc. (please see my comment above, re: ecological racism)
Whites are the only moral agents and everyone else is just a perpetual victim. It’s a sad way to look at the world, and pretty ridiculous.
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@biff
“There is another more insiduous form of racism at work here. I am surprised that Abagond missed it.”
Your irony notwithstanding I believe that the development of the Republic of Haiti was strongly hampered by the attitudes of the World powers at the time this country was born. Those attitudes extended for a large period of time and partially, at least, influenced the political and economic development of that country.
At the 19th century Blacks were not supposed to rule themselves and Haiti was a counter example. The powers at the time made everything to turn that in a bad example and they succeeded to a great extent.
I’m not an expert on Dominican Republic history but I suspect that that society had (and has) greater White presence and more widespread race-mixing. Both contributed to a warmer attitude of external powers to it, compared to their attitude vis-a-vis its neighbor. It would be very naive to not recognize this.
Internal politics sure played a decisive role in the Haitian development, but it would be naive not to see the weight of external factors. As in personal life, it’s up to each of us how our life goes, but if we live under the control of unfriendly environments for very long, than this surely will take a toll, and will influence negatively our outcomes.
An interesting short account of the history of both countries Haiti/Dominican Republic is taken by the American scholar, Henry Louis Gates Junior,
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/black-in-latin-america/featured/haiti-the-dominican-republic-an-island-divided-watch-full-episode/165/
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Kiwi said,”Yeah, communism is evil but let’s not talk about how racism also impacted (and still affects) the world, even though both amounted to armed robbery”.
So it boils down to relying on charges of “racism”. But what does that work really mean.
To break it down to it’s simplest level there are two fundamental possibilities:
First, maybe leftists are right and all the “races” are exactly the same (same average intelligence, same predisposition, etc.), even though for breeds of dogs no one makes this argument–even though it countradicts hundreds of years of people’s common sense—even though it contradicts all standardized tests administered in statisically significant numbers at any time of any type–even though black countries and cities are always (except for a couple scenarious where massive natural resources were involved) much less prosperous than comparable white countries or cities–and even though, in terms of physical prowess, it’s pretty easy to see that the races are not all the same.
Second, maybe there are differences between the races on average. No one would argue that this means each person in a race is exactly the same. Clearly, the black folks on this blog, including Abagond, are mostly smarter than the average white person. However, the general principle that differences may exist throws doubt into the use of “racism” as an excuse for everything. Maybe even if we created a completely level playing field, we wouldn’t get equal results between races and we shouldn’t expect them. We wouldn’t expect white sprinters to do as well as black ones, necessarily, so why assume that blacks should have the same average income as whites? If we throw away so called “disparate impact” studies, a lot of common sense solutions for society become a lot easier to implement.
Anyway, I don’t have the energy to keep responding to you ad infinitum. I’ve made the points I wanted to. I’m frankly surprised that UCB let you in, but if so.. you must be relatively smart. Try to use your brainpower to think objectively and independently. Don’t just listen to the indoctination you will receive in school. That’s my advice to you.
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Kiwi:
How many breeds of dogs are there? As you’ve said, dog breeds are not “scientific”, just like human race, so, therefore, they must not exist. Dog owners everywhere are crazy and breedist. Case closed. You win. Brilliant!
Still have a feeling you will react differently when meeting a poodle and Rottweiler, but try to control and reprogram your breedist brain.
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Of course humans can do bad stuff to each other. No one is trying to say they can’t. And there could be “ridiculous stereotypes”, but most stereotypes exist for a reason. Similarly, “discrimination” could occur for various reasons, with varying degrees of legitimacy. For instance, a society could determine (as most have) that having women in combat under normal circumstances undermines the functioning of the military, even though some would say this is “discrimination”. Instead of throwing these words out there like “genocide” and “slavery” or “stereotypes” and “discrimination” that are now quasi-religious and meant to stop any discussion, take time to think dispassionately and provide logical arguments. Maybe that won’t serve you well in a leftist school environment, but it will serve you well in life.
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@biff
“…even though black countries and cities are always (except for a couple scenarious where massive natural resources were involved) much less prosperous than comparable white countries or cities”
Really?
What are the “massive natural resources” of Bermuda or Bahamas?
Furthermore: were not “massive natural resources” a basis of the industrialization in countries like Australia or even the United States? (I suspect that these countries are not exactly “resource poor”! Aren’t they?)
More: have you heard of the “Dutch disease”? Not always the presence of “massive natural resources” helps societies organize themselves properly in order to maximize their exploitation! By the way: why this “disease” was coined after the name of a western developed nation?
The fixation with the “race factor” sometimes does not help to see things in an appropriate way. It is better to have a more “open perspective” and not to let other “minor (?) things” out of sight.
Trust me: the Haitian history is not a good example of “race realist” theories. Is exactly the opposite (a very contaminated case I would say, in lab terms!): a case were everything was done (by outside forces) in order to make sure a specific social experiment would fail!
P,S,:
munu aka bantu = munubantu
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Sammy Sosa is a good example for the fact than skin lightening does´t work, it just looks bad. Quite similar it looks bad when white people try to look black by extreme tanning
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Erik
Looks bad is an extreme understatement.
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Some real data. Most of the ones that I’ve seen don’t have over 2% Native American DNA. This says a little different, but the SSA is UNDERestimated
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And I left out the data….
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CL2T54EF&key=0At1sp4m_NTCLdHB4a2FZYXRxZnh0UzRfbzlTV2lXSWc&hl=en_US&authkey=CL2T54EF#gid=0
or this link
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/…CL2T54EF#gid=0
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Kiwi:
Dogs don’t do a lot of things humans can do because they aren’t as smart. You are still spitting out emotional arguments instead of rational ones. Sure, if you go back long enough the word “white people” may not have been used. However, “European” would have been understood, and European people would band together to fight against the Moors instead of welcoming them in with open arms.. People back hundreds of years ago were absolutely conscious of race, though they might have had different ways of describing it. To say otherwise is very naive.
munu:
If you go to Bermuda, you will see their great natural resource. They have had an orderly gov’t historically controlled by whites and make money from rich (mostly white) people who want to live or invest there (it’s a tax haven). With a population of 65,000, they don’t need to do much to get a decent per capita GDP.
Sure, race isn’t everything. However, it does play a big factor in countries’ development. To look at the countries of the world today and not see that is to be willfully blind. Yes, outside actors may make certain decisions taking into consideration race, which you could say is “racist”. My point is just that such considerations may actually sometimes be reasonable (i.e., not necessarily just irrational prejudice).
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@ Biff
This post is about the Dominican Republic, not Haiti. There was nothing I “missed”. As to Haiti:
There is no clear relationship between race and GDP per person in the Caribbean:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html
There are plenty of Blacker countries that are higher or almost as high as the DR: Jamaica, Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago, Barbados, Grenada, etc. Haiti is an outlier and therefore proves little. If Bermuda or the Bahamas are exceptional cases, then so most likely is Haiti.
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@ Biff
In English, at least, no one used the word “Europeans” till the 1630s or “whites” till the 1670s.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=European&allowed_in_frame=0
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=white&searchmode=none
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@ Linda
This post is about the Dominican Republic. Are there any Tainos (or any other Native people) still there and, if so, about how many? I used as my source on this Henry Lous Gates’s “Black in Latin America”, which said they were none left in the DR by the 1800s.
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@ Just Me
Now I get it. Thanks. I will think about doing posts like that. I generally avoid doing posts on Africa because it is hard to tell what is real and what is Western or Afrocentric propaganda.
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abagond:
Thank you for the thoughtful response. Re: the term “white” and “European”, that’s interesting, but I’m not sure how meaningful the terms are. In other words, the more important thing is the concept. Shakespeare’s 1603 play Othello, to take one famous example, absolutely tells you Europeans were very aware of race before the referenced dates.
Re: Jamaica, I was just looking at its info the other day and was surprised (or not really) to see they had maintained a British form of government and recently elected mostly mixed and white leaders. Not sure about the other countries you referenced.
Haiti might be an outlier in some respects. However, it along with 17 other almost all black countries are featured in the bottom 20 of the 228 ranked countries of the world in terms of GDP per person (PPP). Meanwhile, I counted 41 almost all black countries in the bottom 50. That doesn’t seem like a pure coincidence.
Generally, there’s a very high correlation between IQ and the measured wealth of countries. See, e.g., http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm
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George:
The numbers can vary a few points depending on the tests (do your own google searches), but there are absolutely countries in the 60s (and Khoisan and pygmies would be lower than that). They are still functional in many ways, however, i.e., not “retarded” the way you would generally conceptualize that in the West.
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Anyway, abagond, I know this was a post about DR. However, you made reference to DR “racism” vs. Haiti. I’m just saying, it’s not necessarily all “irrational prejudice”. Can something be “racist” if it’s largely rationale?
Hypothetically, if we knew there were two countries on the same island with similar populations, one all black and one mixed with some whites, can you imagine that the countries would stack up equally in terms of economic performance/quality of life? You would probably agree no, but blame it all on some sort of global racist conspiracy. This was the reason for my tongue in cheek initial response above (if that wasn’t clear).
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@ Biff
Garbage in, garbage out: La Griffe du Lion uses Richard Lynn’s IQ numbers, which are BS:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/a2011/03/08/the-average-african-iq-is-70/
He puts Jamaica at 71, which is plainly not true.
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abagond:
Read your linked post. You take issue with Lynn’s numbers, and may have some valid points. Even if the real number is closer to 80, as you posit, it doesn’t change much bit picture wise. Waiting for the “Flynn effect” to take Africans to European levels seems like wishful thinking (if it happened, that would be great–it doesn’t give me pleasure to notice these disparities). In the U.S. there hasn’t been much change in comparative academic performance of blacks and whites in the last several decades. I doubt the comparative economic numbers for various countries around the world have changed much either during that time.
George:
I hope abagond is right and it’s not quite that bad…
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Biff, if Haitians are naturally inferior to Dominicans how do you explain the fact that they dominated Dominicans from 1802 to 1842? During that period Haiti was richer than DR. Why are Dominicans richer and better educated now? I’d say that the extortion of France, ably abetted by the USA and others along with the fact that Haitians themselves bought into the white supremacist hype goes a long way in explaining what happened to Haiti. Ask yourself why Haiti did less to educate its people than say the white colonists who ran St-Croix and the Virgin Islands? Surely it isn’t due to ‘racial’ differences between these two African peoples. In 1805 Haiti’s constitution called for universal education, after 1825 a kid needed the president’s authorization to go to school. The schools established by King Henri Christophe with the help of British abolitionists and black Americans such as Prince Saunders were left to perish because the new crew wanted to install a shamefaced form of white supremacy without whites. Your ‘racial’ take is an easy dodge, try to deal with history. 1) The people of Haiti were smart enough to destroy the armies of Britain,Spain and France. 2) They are the only people who forced whites to grant them citizenship in 1794 and to kick these same whites out when the whites tried to take from them what they had won arms in hand. I maintain that a counter-revolution took place in 1825 when Boyer’s mulatto camarilla agreed to indemnify France for her loses in her attempt to take away French citizenship from the people of St-Domingue (present day Haiti) and reenslave them as they did to the people of Guadeloupe.
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@thwack
“Sosa was not a bad looking dude, he had a great smile; Michael Jackson too.
What is up with that?”
Sosa said “It’s a cream that I have, that I use to soften [my skin], but has bleached me some. I’m not a racist, I live my life happily.” People say he’s brown again: http://bustedcoverage.com/2014/05/19/sammy-sosa-is-black-again.
Michael Jackson always blamed vitiligo and he was found to be treating it.
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LOL, Is Biff the New Randy?
All this white male ‘intellectual’ and ‘rational’ posturing about how much more prosperous and therefore superior most white countries are whilst ignoring the colonialism that drained the resources from these ‘non white’ countries in the first place. How do you think the British Empire became so almighty!
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abagond @ Linda
This post is about the Dominican Republic. Are there any Tainos (or any other Native people) still there and, if so, about how many? I used as my source on this Henry Lous Gates’s “Black in Latin America”, which said they were none left in the DR by the 1800s.
Linda says,
I understand and if taken island-by-island, then yes, it could be said that there are no 100% pure indigenous Tainos left as a group in the Dominican Republic or the Caribbean.
By the 1800s, most of the Tainos had intermixed with the Europeans and Africans, so yes, what Dr. Gates wrote has truth.
but my complaint is that nearly All history books claim that the Tainos were wiped out completely in the entire Caribbean by the 1500s/1600s (which is a lie) and has sold this as the gospel. Most people continue to believe it and write it like a fact.
(Dr. Gates is probably one of the few professors who even pushed it as far as 1800s, so props to him)
There are also black and white people in DR who are not mixed, but many are: African-Spanish, African-Taino, Spanish-Taino, all three, etc.
The Dominicans themselves, have been saying it for years, but scholars and outsiders accused them of lying, based on the lie that the Taino’s were extinct, and people having obvious African ancestry.
A lot of whitewashing and brainwashing has been done as far as “race”, but
if you put aside the American one-drop rule, then you can say that the Tainos did and do survive — through their descendants who carry their DNA — which the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans do.
There are different studies that show that the Dominicans test subjects carry anywhere from 6% – 15% Indigenous DNA.
and as we know, these studies don’t even cover the entire population, so the final results should be very interesting. It’s sort of sad that it’s takes DNA evidence to hush all the doubters.
Moncion, Santiago Rodriguez is an area in Dominican Republic that is known for the people being of heavy indigenous Taino descent. (Moncion is also popular for it’s cassava bread)
side note: There is a folklore in the Caribbean, that it’s possible to tell an someone who has indigenous Taino/Arawak ancestry, by their prominent bone structure of their jaws and teeth (shovel teeth).
example: Jamaican woman with Taino ancestry
http://yamaye-mike.blogspot.com/2012/01/celebrating-jamaicas-50th-year-of.html
Dominican woman
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Biff, leave it to you to bring up that IQ test bulls’t on a totally “unrelated” topic
I’ve met wayyy too Many dumb white people (real life and online) to EVER believe your ridiculous claims that white people are smarter than black or brown people.
and as Gro Jo said, the black Haitians gave the white French and British army a good arse-kicking that throws the “white superiority” crap out the window.
White America was so scared of the black Haitians and their success, that America did what they do best: sold weapons to the black Haitians in order to make back door deals which benefited America.
What brought Haiti down were it’s various sell-out leaders.
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How do you think the British Empire became so almighty!
Should say ‘how do you think countries like Britain became an Empire that was once almighty!’
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Biff,
Re: Jamaica, I was just looking at its info the other day and was surprised (or not really) to see they had maintained a British form of government and recently elected mostly mixed and white leaders. Not sure about the other countries you referenced.
Linda says,
So, you race realist are calling black, brown/mixed, and Asian people “white” now
This is what the Jamaican government looks like:
The Jamaican Cabinet after their swearing-in, January 2012.
and our prime minister is the lady in the middle wearing the red outfit.
here is some of our “mostly white leaders” in Jamaica
http://www.newpicspin.com/search.php?search=Jamaica%20Information%20Service%20Government&source=&type=face&format=&ratio=&page=1&size=
Thanks Biff, got a good laugh from you.
Please, stick to America to retain credibility
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@omnipresent
I suppose a race realist would say they used to have a high IQ, until they let black and brown people into their country.
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Biff
If IQ is such a big deal In your race superiority fantasy then wouldn’t you have to admit that you’re not actually at the top since East Asians typically score higher than your supposed superior white race?
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gro jo:
You said “Biff, if Haitians are naturally inferior to Dominicans how do you explain the fact that they dominated Dominicans from 1802 to 1842?”
I never use the words “naturally inferior”. Anyway, from what I read, in the early 1800s, the Haiti side had many more people and had received much more investment, as the French had been very keen on developing their sugar plantations (under what were certainly very inhumane/brutal conditions), and Haiti seems to have mostly been led by persons of mixed background (homme de couleur) during this time, though slaughtering 5,000 whites in the Haiti Massacre was a notable achievement of one of the black leaders, Dessalines.
Linda:
You said, “What brought Haiti down were it’s various sell-out leaders.”
Can we blame it all on the leaders and not on the society that allows them to lead? And why do black countries (without significant white admixture) seem to regularly produce bad leaders?
I was just clicking through Wikipedia’s historical prime ministers of Jamaica and was seeing the mixed and white people, I referenced. So, maybe the people I saw were anomalies. However, I still do see a number of mixed people in the picture you provided, and a couple white people. Maybe that’s just reflective of Jamaica’s total population, but I guess that would make it different from Haiti.
A:
Correct. In terms of averages, at least. That may be one reason most East Asian cities are so safe.
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“Anyway, from what I read, in the early 1800s, the Haiti side had many more people and had received much more investment, as the French had been very keen on developing their sugar plantations (under what were certainly very inhumane/brutal conditions), and Haiti seems to have mostly been led by persons of mixed background (homme de couleur) during this time, though slaughtering 5,000 whites in the Haiti Massacre was a notable achievement of one of the black leaders, Dessalines. ” Hahaha, I was sure you were another ignorant person talking about things you know superficially, thanks for the confirmation. The French investment was reduced to rubble by the army of that great French tyrant Napoleon Bonaparte. As for the slaughtering of 5,000 whites by black Dessalines, I would call it poetic justice. How come people like you never say a word about the decimation of the free people of Guadeloupe and the re-enslavement of the rest by the French under general Richepanse? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Richepanse. I guess it’s a massacre only when whites are at the receiving end of the sword. The leaders of the Haitian revolution were overwhelmingly black. for your information, Dessalines not only massacred 5,000 whites he also sheltered hundreds of Poles and other whites who were sent to fight him under the misconception that Napoleon was going to free their nation, he also gave Haiti a constitution that allowed freedom of worship and called for universal education. He also began Haiti’s enduring monument to freedom the Citadelle Laferriere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citadelle_Laferri%C3%A8re. You are free to remember him for his punishment of white crimes, he would have liked that. In my opinion, the only mistake these great men, Louverture,Dessalines and Christophe made was to try to revive the plantation system destroyed by the 1791 insurrectionists. It’s only fitting that I let Emperor Dessalines have the last word:
LIBERTY OR DEATH
PROCLAMATION
JEAN JACQUES DESSALINES,
Governor-General, to the Inhabitants of Hayti
CRIMES, the most attrocious [sic], such as were until then unheard of, and would cause nature to shudder, have been perpetrated. The measure was overheaped. At length the hour of vengeance has arrived, and the implacable enemies of the rights of man have suffered the punishment due to their crimes.
My arm, raised over their heads, has too long delayed to strike. At that signal, which the justice of God has urged, your hands, righteously armed, have brought the axe upon the ancient tree of slavery and prejudices. In vain had time, and more especially the infernal politics of Europeans, surrounded it with triple brass; you have stripped it of its armour; you have placed it upon your hearts, that you may become (like your natural enemies) cruel and merciless. Like an overflowing might torrent that tears down all opposition, you vengeful fury has carried away every thing in its impetuous course. Thus perish all tyrants over innocence, all oppressors of mankind!
What then? bent for many ages under an iron yoke; the sport of the passions of men, of their injustice, and of the caprice of fortune; mutilated victims of the cupidity of white Frenchmen? after having fattened with out toils these insatiate blood-suckers, with a patience and resignation unexampled, we should again have seen that sacrilegious horde make an attempt upon our destruction, without any distinction of sex or age; and we, men without energy, of no virtue, or no delicate sensibility, should not we have plunged in their breast the dagger of desperation? – Where is that vile Haytian, so unworthy of his regeneration, who thinks he has not accomplished the decrees of the Eternal, by exterminating these bloody thisty tigers! If there is one, let him fly; indignant nature discards him from our bosom; let him hide his shame far from hence; the air we breathe is not suited to his gross organs; it is the pure air of Liberty, august and triumphant.
Yes, we have rendered to these true cannibals war for war, crime for crime, courage for courage [should be “outrage for outrage”]; Yes, I have saved my country – I have avenged America. The avowal I make of it in the face of earth and heaven, constitutes my pride and my glory. – Of what consequence to me is the opinion which contemporary and future generations will pronounce upon my conduct? I have performed my duty; I enjoy my own approbation; for me that is sufficient. But what do I say? The preservation of my unfortunate brothers, the testimony of my own conscience are not my only recompence [sic]: I have seen two classes of men, born to cherish, assist and succour one another – mixed, in a word, and blended together – crying for vengeance, and disputing the honor of the first blow.
Blacks and Yellows, whom the refined duplicity of Europeans has for a long time endeavoured to divide; you, who are now consolidated, and make but one family; without doubt it was necessary that our perfect reconciliation should be sealed with the blood of your butchers. Similar calamities have hung over your proscribed heads; a similar ardour to strike your enemies has signalized you: the like fate is reserved for you, and the like interest must therefore render you for ever one, indivisible and inseparable. Maintain the precious concord, that happy harmony amongst yourselves; it is the pledge of your happiness, your salvation, and your success: it is the secret of being invincible.
It is necessary, in order to strengthen these ties, to recal [sic] to your remembrance the catalogue of attrocities [sic] committed against our species: the massacre of the entire population of this Island, mediated in the silence and sang froid of he cabinet: the execution of that abominable project, to me unblushingly proposed, and already begun by the French with the calmness and serenity of a countenance accustomed to similar crimes. Guadeloupe, pillaged and destroyed: its ruins still reeking with blood of children, women and old men put to the sword: PELAGE (himself the victim of their craftiness) after having basely betrayed his country and his brothers: The brave and immortal Delgresse, blown into the air with the fort which he defended, rather than accept their offered chains. Magnanimous warrior! that noble death, far from enfeebling our courage, serves only to rouse within us the determination of avenging or of following thee. Shall I again recal [sic] to your memory the plots lately framed at Jeremie? the terrible explosion which was to be the result, notwithstanding the generous pardon granted to these incorrigible beings at the expulsion of the French army? and (dread harbinger of death) the frightful despotism exercised at Martinique! – Unfortunate people of Martinique, could I but fly to your assistance, and break your fetters! Alas, an insurmountable barrier separates us. Perhaps a spark from the same fire which inflames us, will alight into your bosoms: perhaps at the sound of this commotion, suddenly awakening from your lethargy, with arms in your hands, you will reclaim your sacred and imprescriptable [sic] rights.
After the terrible example which I have just given, that sooner of later Divine Justice will unchain on earth some mighty winds, above the weakness of the vulgar, for the destruction and terror of the wicked; tremble, tyrants, usurpers, scourges of the new world! our daggers are sharpened; your punishment is ready! sixty thousand men, equipped, inured to war, obedient to my orders, burn to offer a new sacrifice to the manes of their assassinated brothers. Let that nation come who may be mad and daring enough to attack me. Already at its approach, the irritated genius of Hayti, rising out of the bosom of the ocean, appears; his menacing aspect throws the waves into commotion, excites tempests, and with his mighty hand disperses ships, or dashes them in pieces; to his formidable voice the laws of nature pay obedience; diseases, plague, famine, conflagration, poison, are his constant attendants. – But why calculate on the assistance of the climate and of the elements? Have I forgot that I command a people of no common cast, brought up in adversity, whose audacious daring frowns at the obstacles and increases by dangers? Let them come, then, these homicidal Cohorts! I wait for them with firmness and with a steady eye. I abandon to them freely the sea-shore, and the places where cities have existed; but woe to those who may approach too near the mountains! It were better for them that the sea received them into its profound abyss, than to be devoured by the anger of the children of Hayti.
“War and Death to Tyrants!” this is my motto;
“Liberty! Independence!” this is our rallying cry
Generals, officers, soldiers, a little unlike him who has preceded me, he ex-general TOUSSAINT LOUVERTURE, I have been faithful to the promise which I made to you when I took up arms against tyranny, and whilst the last spark of life remains in me I shall keep my oath. Never again shall a colonist or an European set his foot upon this territory with the title of master or proprietor. This resolution shall henceforward form the fundamental basis of our constitution.
Should other chiefs, after me, by pursuing a conduct diametrically opposite to mine, dig their own graves and those of their species, you will have to accuse only the law of destiny which shall have taken me away from the happiness and welfare of my fellow-citizens. May my successors follow the path I shall have traced out for them! It is the system best adapted for consolidating their power; it is the highest homage they can render to my memory.
As it is derogatory to my character and my dignity to punish the innocent for the crimes of the guilty, a handful of whites, commendable by the religion they have always professed, and who have besides taken the oath to live with us in the woods, have experienced my clemency. I order that the sword respect them, and that they be unmolested.
I recommend anew and order to al the generals of department, &c. to grant succours, encouragement, and protection, to all neutral and friendly nations who may wish to establish commercial relations in this island.
The Governor-General
(Signed) DESSALINES
A true Copy. The Sec’y-General
JUSTE CHANLATTE
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Biff @ Linda: I was just clicking through Wikipedia’s historical prime ministers of Jamaica and was seeing the mixed and white people
Linda says,
All our prime ministers pre-1990s, were mixed-race, even the “white” ones.
The Manley’s, Shearers, and Clarks were related and came from old British colonial and black/mixed-race families (outside of Jamaica, those who could, passed as white – that’s how Bustamante, real name Clark, made his fortune before returning to Jamaica in 1934)
Edward Seaga would probably be the only one counted as bonafide “white” by American standards. He is of Lebanese/Syrian and Scottish ancestry, but even that Scottish was watered down with African and Indian.
After independence, the Jamaican working class had no tolerance for any more white British leadership, but they were willing to take “tan” and brown.
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“Biff @ Can we blame it all on the leaders and not on the society that allows them to lead? And why do black countries (without significant white admixture) seem to regularly produce bad leaders?”
Linda says,
Same reason why Europe, Asia, and the Americas produce bad leaders.
Race does not determine the character of a leader– bad leadership, is bad leadership… point blank. Corrupt politicians have always done deals with corrupt businessmen, who put making money before the needs of their people.
None of that is new or race-based, hence that’s why big corporations in America saw record profits after 2008, while the economy came to a virtual standstill.
Race has been a factor in how the outside world deals with each other; such as, how Europe dealt with their former colonies or occupied countries.
How America deals with Latin America and Caribbean countries vs their European “allies” and even their enemies, such as Russia and China.
Race was/is a factor on the world stage when loans and payment structures are being negotiated. The deal Haiti got from France was equivalent to “rape”
and the deals that the World Bank doled out to the Caribbean and other 3rd world countries, were disrespectful and used as tools to punish or reward countries that went along with the US or European agendas.
http://ccrjustice.org/why-us-owes-haiti-billions-briefest-history-bill-quigley
Why The US Owes Haiti Billions – The Briefest History by Bill Quigley
“After the 1804 revolution, Haiti was the subject of a crippling economic embargo by France and the US. US sanctions lasted until 1863. France ultimately used its military power to force Haiti to pay reparations for the slaves who were freed. The reparations were 150 million francs. (France sold the entire Louisiana territory to the US for 80 million francs!)
Haiti was forced to borrow money from banks in France and the US to pay reparations to France. A major loan from the US to pay off the French was finally paid off in 1947. The current value of the money Haiti was forced to pay to French and US banks? Over $20 Billion – with a big B.”
Germany was one of the few European countries willing to trade with Haiti back then — and the US invaded Haiti because the Germans were willing to integrate themselves within Haitian society and give Haiti the pipeline it needed for International commerce, since America made a point to cut Haiti off.
____________________________________________
What’s so ironic is that, Germany was forced to pay reparations after WW2– and it was the Americans and Europeans who helped to finance Germany’s resurrection… no one was trying to help resurrect Haiti after they were forced into isolation — the USA and France told the Haitians to “sink or swim, and make sure you pay me b’tches! “
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Linda, nice synopsis of Haiti’s financial history in the 19th century. I can’t wholeheartedly endorse it because it put too much emphasis on external factors. The key to Haiti’s misery is the fact that after 21 years of freedom Haitians turned their backs on Dessalines’s program of living as free men or dying. The military might of France wasn’t the deciding factor, because the 14 ships fleet France sent to threaten Haiti in 1825 was about a fourth the total naval forces deployed against the free people of St-Domingue (future Haitians). Since 1802 Toussaint Louverture had formulated the plan to blunt and eventually defeat such threat. It worked pretty well in 1804 and in Russia’s resistance against Napoleon. The plan was to destroy everything the invader could live on and give them no quarter. Haitians lost their freedom when they no longer felt like paying the price for freedom. Jean-Jacques Dessalines foresaw such eventuality and warned against it: “Yes, we have rendered to these true cannibals war for war, crime for crime, outrage for outrage; yes, I have saved my country; I have avenged America. The avowal I make of it in the face of earth and heaven, constitutes my pride and my glory. Of what consequence to me is the opinion which contemporary and future generations will pronounce upon my conduct? I have performed my duty; I enjoy my own approbation; for me that is sufficient…But why calculate on the assistance of the climate and of the elements? Have I forgot that I command a people of no common cast, brought up in adversity, whose audacious daring frowns at the obstacles and increases by dangers? Let them come, then, these homicidal Cohorts! I wait for them with firmness and with a steady eye. I abandon to them freely the sea-shore, and the places where cities have existed; but woe to those who may approach too near the mountains! It were better for them that the sea received them into its profound abyss, than to be devoured by the anger of the children of Hayti.
“War and Death to Tyrants!” this is my motto;
“Liberty! Independence!” this is our rallying cry
Generals, officers, soldiers, a little unlike him who has preceded me, he ex-general TOUSSAINT LOUVERTURE, I have been faithful to the promise which I made to you when I took up arms against tyranny, and whilst the last spark of life remains in me I shall keep my oath. Never again shall a colonist or an European set his foot upon this territory with the title of master or proprietor. This resolution shall henceforward form the fundamental basis of our constitution.
Should other chiefs, after me, by pursuing a conduct diametrically opposite to mine, dig their own graves and those of their species, you will have to accuse only the law of destiny which shall have taken me away from the happiness and welfare of my fellow-citizens. May my successors follow the path I shall have traced out for them! It is the system best adapted for consolidating their power; it is the highest homage they can render to my memory.” Of course the authors of the Haitian counter-revolution assassinated him and proposed the financial chains you mentioned and that France was too glad to put on the people of Haiti. The Haitian people resisted this new form of slavery by abandoning the plantations and setting up as small holdings
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@ biff
@ George Ryder
Which is what our pseudo-polite and pseudo-intellectual friend here is getting at. Majority-black nations are unmanageable unless they’re being managed by major white powers or a white elite class. It’s the same line of reasoning likely used by plantation owners to justify that peculiar institution of theirs.
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@Mack Lyons: Isn’t that call paternalism?
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@bliff
I can’t beleive no one called out this bliff person on their erroneous attempt to equate “races” to dog breeds.
Race: Used most often to describe variation within the human species. Human races are differentiated primarily by skin color, but even though the genes responsible for skin color are noticeable, the actual genetic differences among races are slight. In fact, skin color doesn’t accurately reflect the genetic differences among humans. Two people of African descent could easily be more genetically different from each other than a person of European descent may be from a person of Asian descent. Bottom line: Races have slight differences, and these differences are nowhere near the level they’d have to be to decrease gene exchange.
Breed: Domestic animals (such as dogs and cows) whose characteristics are artificially selected and maintained by humans through animal husbandry are divided into breeds. The goal of selective breeding is to create animals that differ from their wild counterparts and possess relatively predictable traits. Take dogs, for example. Humans have been breeding dogs for only a relatively short period, and over that time, starting with wolves, we’ve managed to produce everything from Chihuahuas to Great Danes. All breeds of dogs are the same species. They can all interbreed, although admittedly, interbreeding is easier for some pairs than for others.
Race realist? More like racially delusional. There is more genetic variation among races than there are between races. These are scientifically proven. But, according to people like this bliff character that isn’t true. Everything comes down to “race” even though only 6% of the 1% of difference between humans is allocated to “race” which scientifically negligible.
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@ Biff
Well than the next question would inevitably be, if & when the time comes that East Asians dominate America would you not just admit to but simply put bow down to that supposed superiority?
You know, the same way you think all us poor hapless darkies (especially us blacks, you know we just can’t do anything without your superior white race holding our hands) should do to whites?
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@ Kiwi
I can’t recall exactly where but I remember reading that African immigrants in the US actually score higher on IQ & standardized tests as well. If Biff has a hard time bowing to East Asians than he would have a heart attack if he had to play 2nd fiddle to a black person.
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@Beesams
Many of us certainly noticed it, but we don’t even bother to call him out on it.
He always alerts us on how smart he was (e.g., National Merit Scholar in High School) and how much he knows about Asian culture and language and Asian-American history, but then continuously drops bombs like race realism pseudo-science and grave misconception of Asian culture and gaping holes in awareness of Asian-American history, culture and politics.
For people who believe in stuff such as race realism as if it were a religion, there is no need trying to shake people from their “faith”. Like those young proselytizing Mormon boys overseas who know the Truth and the Light (and learned how to say that in the local language) – what kind of conversation do you expect to have with them?
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Ah, if I’m actively commenting, jefe stays far far away, but if I’m out of sight for a couple days and he thinks the coast is clear, he will still emerge to try to personally attack me.
Race realism is not a religion for those who would use such term. “Equalism” is a religion, and it is the dominant state approved religion of the USSA. I was taught at home and in school that all races were the same and that non-whites’ suffering could all be attributed to evil white men. Then life happened, and I began to put the pieces together myself.
Even Abagond argues above, and in a referenced post, that the average IQ in Africa is around 80 (other estimates put it closer to 70), which would put Africans, on average, more than a full standard deviation below Europeans, again on average. Unless you truly believe intelligence doesn’t matter in life outcomes, and that all the massive research linking life results to IQ is worthless, this difference has striking implications.
jefe and Kiwi can insinuate that my beliefs aren’t based on anything scientific and are just arbitrary hate, but if that were the case why would I have mostly non-white friends? why would I have very close black and Hispanic friends? If that’s what I were about, why would I even want to associate with those people? For most of my time in Asia and South America I tried to actively avoid white/Western people, so I could learn about the local languages and culture. Why would I do that if I were just an evil guy filled with prejudice?
And this from beesams “Everything comes down to “race” even though only 6% of the 1% of difference between humans is allocated to “race” which scientifically negligible.” The genetic difference between different dog breeds is also negligible (and, as Kiwi has said, different breeds aren’t even “scientifically” provable). The genetic difference between humans and chimpanzees is small. Clearly small genetic differences can make big differences in real life.
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@ A
Amy Chua (Tiger Mom fame) speaks to the success of African immigrants in her book Triple Package, maybe that’s where you read about it. She says some general things about African immigrants drive to succeed and then zeroes in on the success (academic and business) that Nigerian immigrants to the U.S. have had.
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Kiwi said, “His intentions were very clear. Yours just take a little more time to sift through, though nothing will ever make you admit it.”
When will you admit that you’re a closeted homosexual? Oh, you won’t.
Accusing someone of “racism” is used to shut down rational arguments. It is an attempt at character assassination and also a form of genetic fallacy used to try to avoid issues.
Yes, PBS is mostly interested in spouting out equalist propaganda. The statement “Humans, on the other hand, have always mixed freely and widely” in particular is ridiculous.
You admit to worshiping whites (since you are Asian and you have said that all Asians do) and thinking they are better than you. You are the self-confessed racist.
Anyway, not gonna trade insults with you indefinitely on this thread, as your repetoire gets old fast.
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@Kiwi I find it very hilarious how he NEVER responds to any of the things everyone has been saying. He only responds to selective, frivolous things, As you said, it’s clear he’s not very bright and is working with a very clear agenda and his own personal animus at the moment. He clearly doesn’t know much about “race” or biology. Just as you said, at least the others had vast knowledge in biology and could argue there points and go toe-to-toe on these topics even though they were eventually proven to be wrong. But he just seems like someone who reads up on something, then regurgitates talking points he’s heard. So typical for someone to provide legitmate evidence and scientific research, with links to boot and then what does the person like him ALWAYS do “oh you can’t trust that, that’s bias.” Lmao conservatives do it all the time with their tirades against the “liberal media” if it isn’t coming from Faux News or Rush Limbaugh then it’s liberal bias. As I said, not a “race realist” but a “race delusion.”
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Beesams:
No idea who you are, but glad I can keep you entertained there, bro. I can’t really try to respond to everything everyone says to/about me here. There’s only one of me, and there are dozens of social justice warriors to contend with (one of whom can’t seem to leave me alone). I just try to make big picture points. It’s not about saying certain groups are “superior” or whatever. However, if there are, on average, significant intelligence differences between different groups of peoples (and even abagond’s suggested African IQ indicates that there are, though he hopes the Flynn effect will someday help blacks to catch up), then it has important implications.
First, screaming “racism” every time you see inequality may be unwarranted. That doesn’t mean racism wouldn’t exist or couldn’t function in ways that were unfair. But it means equal opportunities will not result in equal results, which is exactly what we’ve seen time and time again.
Second, as we look to the future, it is worth thinking about what kind of society we want to live in. Should we encourage dysgenic trends? Maybe the Flynn effect will make everything all right, but I tend to think not. Would you rather live in a country with the demographics of Mexico or Brazil or the current U.S.? If the latter, why not use policies to maintain that, e.g., enforcing laws on the books re: illegal immigration, allowing the U.S. population to have more direct control over the immigration they want to allow every year, not allowing people on government assistance or in jail for multiple felonies to keep popping out babies. I’ve said this before, if you want to see the future of the U.S. if we continue on the current path, go see downtown L.A.
Kiwi:
I was trying to make a joke and show why saying someone will “never admit to be a racist” is itself a smear. However, that response of yours… Wow. I had to look up the definition of “rice queen”. But you knew. And now another piece in the puzzle… makes sense with your “I could get a girl if I really wanted to…” and your seemingly animated hostility towards white men. Wow. I’m just not sure if you get it about yourself. On the other hand, I believe sexual orientation can often be rather fluid. Just because you have conflicted feelings towards white men doesn’t mean you need to go that route. Keep trying with Asian women. Don’t give up!
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That’s the other thing, Kiwi. Just because Big Momma and I had some points of agreement, you kept mentioning like some sort of romance thing or getting married….
I don’t think I’m the only one who thought it was really strange when you brought it up, and then kept mentioning it like 10 times. Straight people generally don’t think like that… Seriously.
chickity-check yo self…
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Let’s be honest here. It is one thing to agree with a person, but it is a whole other thing to have complete admiration to a point that you are bringing them up in random text.
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biff, as the resident ‘expert’ on ‘genetics’ I would like you to ‘explain’ the ‘IQ’ difference between geniuses such as Gauss, Newton, etc. and their parents. As far as I know, the difference in IQ between these geniuses and their parents was wider than the 15 points difference between blacks and whites, yet these guys inherited 100% of their DNAs from said parents. Another thing I want you to explain to me is the difference between the poverty of southern Haiti under the rule of the mixed race Petion and his friends and the wealth of the northern kingdom under black Christophe. According to your race realist doctrine that should not have happened.
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Sure, gro jo. Let’s assume you may be asking your questions in good faith. I don’t claim to be an expert on genetics, but I have read a fair amount about how these things work.
The main point is that individuals vary a lot in terms of IQ. So some blacks or whites will be much smarter than their parents (some will be much less intelligent). There are also many blacks (no doubt including the proprietor of this blog) who are smarter than most whites. There are black leaders who are smarter/better than some white leaders. It’s not that all whites are smarter than all blacks, and I’ve never seen anyone argue that. Arguing about an individual’s intelligence based on their race is not very meaningful, because they might be well above (or below) average.
However, when we look at multiple leaders over time and the demographics of the population, then the averages start to be much more meaningful.
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“The main point is that individuals vary a lot in terms of IQ. So some blacks or whites will be much smarter than their parents (some will be much less intelligent).” You are stating an obvious fact., this is not an explanation. In order to explain the variations observed you need to find a biological mechanism to explain the observed fact. I’m asking you if you know of such mechanism that would yield such different results using basically the same material. Another question I have concerns Michael Faraday, the 19th century genius who discovered so much but was not able to do math above high school level when the average physicist for his time was expected to have mastered calculus. Every time I ask someone of your sensibility about the fact that a guy like Faraday existed they are usually silent or give me sophisticated double talk about black swans and chance. Have you got an answer for why this guy was able to outshine his peers who were endowed with ‘higher IQs’ since they were better than he was at math? “However, when we look at multiple leaders over time and the demographics of the population, then the averages start to be much more meaningful.” Are you making a Darwinian argument for intelligence difference between races? Are you saying that each race had the same chance variations in intelligence that arise as in a family as you argued above and used these variations to adapt to their environments and over time the different niches created by these populations resulted in the race difference you see today? If that’s your argument, what’s your evidence for it? Given the adaptive nature of intelligence in such scenario and the reality of the Flynn effect, why wouldn’t convergence of IQ be a real possibility? What’s the difference in IQ between Eskimos and Chinese? They are both Asian but live in very different environments.
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gro jo said, “You are stating an obvious fact., this is not an explanation. In order to explain the variations observed you need to find a biological mechanism to explain the observed fact.”
No, the point here (what I am making) are the “facts” and their implications. IQ matters on average and on a large scale. This is an observable fact. Yes, there might be some people who accomplish a lot with seemingly lower IQs. These people are individuals (among whom there is a lot of variation, as you agreed was an obvious “fact”).
gro jo, you are asking a lot of complex questions to try to sound intelligent. Nothing I say is going to satisfy you. So I am trying to keep it very simple. Intelligence exists and IQ is a proxy for that. There are measurable IQ differences between different groups of people. Differences in IQ on a large scale (and on average) for populations have significant effects on what that population achieves (not that there aren’t other factors). Finally, there are lots of individual variations, so it doesn’t add anything to the topic to discuss Michael Faraday or Michael Brown.
You can look up the measured differences in IQ between Eskimos and Chinese yourself. “Asians” make up over half the world’s population and have tremendous variations in average IQ levels–Africans have variation too, but measured average IQ levels for different black African groups are from the 50s to the 80s. Re: whether the Flynn effect will come make everyone equal, I will consider that question tonight over my favorite dinner of braised unicorn with ambrosia.
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I tried to engage you in a serious manner but your response is silly beyond belief. Why don’t you just say you haven’t a clue what the mechanism is? Your lame sarcasm falls on deaf ears as far as I’m concerned. Braised unicorn indeed! You admit that individuals range from high to low on the IQ scale regardless of race, and that the difference between races is due to group differences. I asked you how these differences arose, hoping that you took your claims seriously enough to tell me how you came to your conclusion. I see that you don’t believe your own bs. Sorry I wasted your time thinking that you really had something to say on the issue you raised. Take small bites when eating that braised unicorn, I wouldn’t want you to choke on it. I need you to show up here and ostentatiously display your ignorance and confusion. I need the laugh. In your opinion,who would have fared better on an IQ test during the hundred year reign of the Nubian dynasty over Ancient Egypt, the Nubians or the ancestors of Newton?
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OK, the last couple of posts are kind of hard to understand in a way because of all the brackets and conversations but I will address the part about being seen as “exotic” and why that is so problematic (in my experience).
I am not Dominican or any other type of Latina. I am of mixed race…black and white with some Maliseet Indian thrown in. Living in South Florida nearly all of my life, I’ve often been mistaken for Dominican or Cuban or some other ethnicity. Maybe it’s the light skin, dark hair/eyes and curves, I don’t know. But something about the way I am objectified on a daily basis and disrespected definitely matches up with what that poster is saying about her experience. People tend to push up on me in a way they most likely wouldn’t with a blue-eyed blonde. When a woman is perceived as “ethnic” or “exotic” for whatever reason, that seems to invite disrespect and folks violating boundaries.
Back on topic…I’ve never been to the Dominican Republic or anywhere in Latin America (does Mexico count?)
Therefore I can’t say what happens in DR and would never attempt to without having visited first.
But I will say that based on what I’ve seen from many Latinos here in Miami, most of the Dominicans are cool in general. I’ve only encountered prejudice from a very few of them. It is actually the Cubans who tend to be the most hostile to blacks in my city.
I know that due to history, there is tension between Haitians and Dominicans. I’ve never understood why some people look down on Haitians or Haitian-Americans. When I was growing up, some ignorant people used the term “Haitian” as an insult…so ridiculous.
As to Sammy Sosa, I won’t even talk about him because that is just effed up. I don’t want to judge because I understand the mentality that led to him looking the way he does, but it is sad. Not to say he is ugly now but there was nothing wrong with him before.
I’ve also heard that hair texture, even more than skin color, is a big deal in Latin America.
Most of the Dominican beauty shops I’ve been to are all about having stick-straight hair. I know some Black women (American and otherwise) will frequent these shops because they like the results or the hair care methods in some cases, but I’ve mostly stopped visiting the Dominican shops because I felt that they were handling my hair too roughly and also because I overheard some nasty comments about my hair in Spanish.
I don’t feel comfortable with giving money to anyone who insults my features or my hair. Just a few months ago, I had this woman say out of the blue (we weren’t even talking about hair or anything beauty-related) that she could “fix” the kinky/curly parts of my hair. I wasn’t offended…more saddened that the self-hate runs so deep that some people will unknowingly try to push it on others. She assumed that since my hair isn’t bone straight, it needs to be “fixed” and that I would want it that way.
I also read an article about how in some parts of the DR, women find it difficult to get jobs if their hair isn’t straight (or straightened).
Not much different here in America except that people will generally be called out for denying employment on that basis, while I’ve been told it is accepted there.
I don’t always believe that identifying with one’s nationality means self-hate…only in cases where a person looks down on blackness and sees nothing positive at all about being Black.
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[…] Race in the Dominican Republic; Haitian […]
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I agree with most of what you say, but think it requires better sources. Henry Louis Gates’ documentary series is problematic for many reasons, and full of historical errors. I would recommend doing a follow-up post citing Silvio Torres-Saillaint, Blas Jimenez, Frank Moya Pons, and more Dominican scholars, some of whom discuss the problems with race, anti-Haitianism, etc. quite well. You’d be surprised how the Dominican Republic asserts its ‘blackness’ in surprising ways, such as bachata music.
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Why the person that wrote this article tell a little about the massacre in 1805 that kill all the white and mulatos haitian including the childrens and woman, and after they wipe out all of those innocent people to be free, they attack the dominicans and almost kill all of them that didnt have nothing to do with the Haitian freedon children ,pregnant woman, man burn with the all family please can you talk about that thank you.
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@ Jose rod
tell a little about the massacre in 1805 that kill all the white and mulatos haitian including the childrens and woman, and after they wipe out all of those innocent people to be free, they attack the dominicans
Why don’t you tell us about the horrific massacre of 20,000 Haitian children, women and men in 1937 known as the Parsley Massacre? According to the Atlanta Blackstar:
http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/10/29/dominican-republic-continues-racist-treatment-of-haitians-75-years-after-massacre/
Or tell us about the merciless mass deportations of Dominicans of Haitian descent in 2012. Those were people born and raised in the D.R. who were pushed out of their homes by White Supremacist Dominicans.
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José Campos Tavares a ‘Dominican’ was sent by Dessalines to the ‘Dominican Republic’ at the head of 200 Haitian soldiers because the people of Cibao, places like Monte-Cristi, Dajabon, Puerto Plata, Santiago, Moca, La Vega and Cotui requested the presence and protection of the Haitian state. Tavares wasn’t successful and Dessalines had the bad idea of demanding 500000 pounds in payment for his help, thus began the Haitian ‘invasion’ of ‘DR’. The bs they teach you in school about massacres of whites and mulattoes is just that, bs. The Haitian declaration of Independence was signed by blacks, mulattoes and Mr. Pierre Nicolas Mallet a/k/a Mallet the good white. He wasn’t the only one to be welcomed. The foremost Haitian lawyer of the 19th century was Edmond De Lespinasse, and Jean-Baptiste François Alain Clérié, president of the Assemblée Nationale in 1888, were white. Now tell me how they managed to occupy such important roles if their parents had been ‘massacred’? Note that I put ‘Dominican’ and ‘Dominican Republic’ in quotes because these entities didn’t exist at the time in question. Learn the real history of your nation, not the fairy tales you were fed. Ask yourself why ‘Dominicans’ welcomed the Haitian army in 1822 and were flying the Haitian flag in 1819?
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@ Afrofem: Thank you for that post:
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@ gro jo: Thank you for sharing that i always enjoy your post on Haitian history. I remember seeing you on another site and you were setting that person straight about Haitian history.
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Thank you Mary.
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@ Mary Burrell
Some people in the Dominican Republic need to stop spreading false histories where they pretend to be victims of the big, bad Haitians.
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Profesor Gates is full of it. He obviously has an agenda that doesnt include facts.
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