In America there are only racists and recovering racists. It is like alcoholism or Catholicism. There is no point at which you are rid of it completely – racist thinking is too much a part of American culture. No one completely escapes it, not even people of colour.
Signs that a White American is a recovering racist (the signs for a person of colour are different):
- Admits to racism, both in one’s self and in American society. Like with alcoholism, the first step to recovery is to break out of denial.
- That means not getting upset at being called the r-word.
- That means giving up the “Anything But Racism” kneejerk reaction.
- That means not downplaying or excusing white racist words and acts, either now or in history.
- That means not blaming the victims of racism for inequality.
- That means calling out racism.
- Takes what people of colour say seriously. Assumes that they are just as capable as white people in making observations and coming to conclusions, that they are just as intelligent, that they can think for themselves and know what is in their own best interest. Recovering racists do not necessarily always agree with people of colour – they think for themselves too! – but neither do they assume that people of colour are children who imagine stuff, whine, need to be talked down to – or saved. Recovering racists do not assume that whites always know best, that they are the moral centre.
- Sees both whites and people of colour as equally imperfectly human: Sees the good and bad in both, puts themselves in the shoes of others. Just as racists demonize and look down on people of colour, noticing all their faults while dismissing their successes, so they also idealize whites, playing up the good things about them while giving a huge pass to the the bad they do. Both demonization and idealization are racist and unrealistic.
- Assumes that the lives, feelings and concerns people of colour are important, just as important as those of white people.
- That means that white people should not always get their way.
- That means seeing Asian, Black, Latino, Native and Muslim Americans as Real Americans.
- That means taking the anger of people of colour seriously rather than trying to police their tone.
- That means not seeing people of colour as a “drain on society” or a “waste” of (white) taxpayer money.
- That means pushing for policies to make society more equal – you know, as if everyone’s life mattered, not just those of rich, white men.
- Accepts people as they are, not as they “should” be, not “in spite of” what makes them different. They see colour, but they also see that different is just different, not “less than”.
- Respects people of colour. Does not tell them what to feel or think or act high-handed. Does not tell them to “Get over it.” Does not put them down for their race, does not call them racial slurs or tell racist jokes. Does not derail their talk of racism.
See also:
This is very thoughtfully written. I love it. The only bad thing is that a non-recovering racist won’t read it. Their knee-jerk will make them stop or they will troll down here to the comments and say something inflammatory or start up about, oh please no, that butter-dripping-southern-drawling-cook.
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[…] In America there are only racists and recovering racists. It is like alcoholism. There is no point at which you are rid of it completely – racist thinking is too much a part of American culture. No… […]
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Will you have the signs for POC?
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@ Jefe
Yes.
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Excellent piece.
I’m British, but I think the principles pretty much hold true for us too.
I clearly fail. I think I do ok except for the very first point. If someone called me racist I think I would lose it. As far as I recall, I have been called racist twice in my life. I lost my temper both times.
The first time was when I was a union shop steward in a car factory. maybe 15 years ago. It was in Luton in the UK, a town with a major international airport and a very racially mixed population. I used to report back to union members after meetings. An Indian guy told me not to report to his buddy because he wouldn’t be able to follow what I said as his English still needed some work. This guy told me that he’d pass the details on. A couple of meetings later I learned that he never told the other guy that he said for me not to report to him, and that guy was telling everyone that I hadn’t been giving him his report because I was racist. I didn’t handle it well and I lost my temper with both of them and yelled like an idiot.
The second time was maybe 5 years ago. I was talking to a Scottish mate who spent a lot of time in the USA when he was younger. He kept telling me how I should visit the USA. I kept saying I didn’t want to . When pressed for reasons I said that I had no urge to visit a country whose foreign policies offended me and which still practised capital punishment. I also mentioned that I didn’t like US TV shows – especially American comedy. I said I could list more things about the US that I disapproved of than things I felt particularly enthusiastic about seeing. He said I was racist. I lost my temper again.
I can’t do it. I can’t think of anything more offensive that someone could call me.
Still, great post.
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Again abalond is succinct and interesting. (I won’t send you anymore.)
I just love this guy. I also disagree with him on things too. I just appreciate thoughtfulness and candor.
Sent from my iPhone
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I agree with 80% of this. The problem is some people may take this the wrong way and think just because they are a so called “POC” that they don’t have the same accountability as a so called white person. They should have just as much of a responsibility to be understanding and kind to their fellow man as anyone else.
This is what baffles me about the “POC” term and I’ll do it with a question. Abagond.., how can you put a second or third generation Asian American family into the same category as a twenty generation++ African American family? What they’ve gone through… What they’ve suffered.
I’ll tell you this I personally think my Irish and Italian 3rd 4th and 5th depending on which branch of the family tree has suffered and gone through more than the average asian family. Don’t get this wrong every family suffers. My Aunt and Uncle lost two boys one shot and killed.. one in a horrific motorcycle accident where he took his last breath as soon as my Uncle walked into the hospital. Obviously that “Immediate” family has suffered more that most. I’m more talking about a group suffering.
Obviously you have Japanese families that went through the WW2 camps. But I would venture a guess that 85% of Asians are third generation or less and weren’t here for that. Your thoughts?
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Here is a NY times article about asians now the largest new immigrant group to back up my “recent immigrant” statements.
(http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/19/us/asians-surpass-hispanics-as-biggest-immigrant-wave.html?_r=0)
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@ Dave.
“I’ll tell you this I personally think my Irish and Italian 3rd 4th and 5th depending on which branch of the family tree has suffered and gone through more than the average asian family.”
I don’t get the point of that. It isn’t a who-had-it-hardest contest.
Abagond has already stated that the equivalent points for PoC will follow.
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@Rick I’m not saying it is. I’m saying that is the argument of the need to even have a “POC” term. That they somehow are brothers in suffering against the system of “white supremacy”. I’m trying to make a dent in that. Most have it bad in today’s America and it keeps getting worse.
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My real point is that there shouldn’t be different standards for different people period.
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What about racist blacks (African-Americans)? Do they exist in American today?
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Re: “What about racist blacks (African-Americans)? Do they exist in American today?” and questions of racism in general:
“Recovering racist” or open-minded people or truly multicultural people will in general be truly caring, open-minded, always willing to learn, and always modest about their world view as everything is relative. They will treat others with understanding, love, and acceptance, etc.
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@pagodaaj..There is nothing wrong with holding on to your own culture as well. That is how the globalists control us by breaking down our cultures by pitting one against the other. Respecting other peoples cultures doesn’t have to mean forsaking your own.
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Dave, you obviously are NOT a recovering racist. You are criticizing Black people for organizing with others, such as Asian Americans, to fight against white supremacy. As such, you are undermining their efforts to dismantle white supremacy, a system of oppression that you as a white person benefit from. You are white and you are helping uphold white supremacy right now. This is messed up and unethical, and you should stop immediately.
In other news, abagond, thanks for the excellent post. I’m white; I’m a racist; and I try very hard to stay in recovery. This post will help me in staying on the right path.
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Also @ Abagond the first step if you want to help an addict is to get the treatment you need first. It is true that the best drug counselors are former addicts. But they usually get the help they need first. 😉 . See you need to come at people with love in your heart not resentment.
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And Becca you are just as good and bad as anyone else.
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@rightfromyaad:
I think abagond answered on that already. Read the post again.
“In America there are only racists and recovering racists. It is like alcoholism. There is no point at which you are rid of it completely – racist thinking is too much a part of American culture. No one completely escapes it, not even people of colour.”
Right there in the beginning.
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number 5 is very important, we always hear racists say they tolerateother races of people, they never say they accept them.
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Dave, don’t tell Abagond what he needs to do. You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Great stuff, as always, Abagond
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Another thought, Dave– read some of the archived messages on the blog. Not all of them are easy to read– I’m white and I often bristle at things Abagond publishes here– but usually, when I think about what he/she is saying, I end up understanding what he means and agreeing. Once in a while there’ll be something here I don’t agree with and when that happens, fine. But I’ll wager you’ll learn more about racism– yours, mine– here than you may in many, if not most, other similar blogs. Another thing– don’t look here for answers to your questions about “black racism.” For many reasons, the subject isn’t touched on here apart from considering what it may mean when white people talk about “reverse racism.” However, I’ve been reading this blog for a few years and I have not ever had the idea anyone here is advocating mistreatment of whites– either individually or collectively. Listen more than you post and then when you do post you’ll probably contribute valuable stuff. And the thing is, we whites are not losing anything by listening to and being influenced by what Abagond is saying. I don’t have time to explain why but I am sure you’ll find that by giving up the stuff of white privilege you’ll find you gain a whole lot you can’t even imagine right now. Good luck to you
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Good post.
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Christine:
Just wanted to let you know that, according to Abagond’s definitions, I would not be a recovering racist, but I DID read this.
Just think it oversimplifies things, basically saying if someone believes in HBD, then they must be “racist”. As a logical corollary, if you believe in biological differences between men and women, you must be “sexist”.
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@ Becca: I can respect your honesty which is more than I can say for some people.
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I love “different is different, not less than”. I used to strive towards being colour blind but now I concsiously see race everywhere and I started to worry I was becoming obsessed with it. So that line is a good reminder to me of why its ok to see our differences.
Agree with you Mstoogood4yall, tolerating each other shouldn’t be the goal. In the UK we seem to pride ourselves on being tolerant of immigration and different religions etc. It’s just insulting that we think automatically assume the white way is the right way.
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@ Dave
I never said whites live in Candy Mountain Land. But there is one thing they do not suffer from directly that people of colour do: white racism, particularly as backed by the press, Hollywood, schools, courts, police, banks, labour market, housing market, etc.
Asian, Black, Latino, Native and Muslim Americans do not experience racism in the same way. Not even all Asians do, as you pointed out. But there is enough in common that it makes the term useful.
There was a time when the Irish were pretty much people of colour, Jews too, and probably Italians, but now in the 2010s they are white.
I am going to do this post for people of colour. It needs a separate post because their moral relationship to American history is different and because internalized racism is a big issue.
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“Dave,
This is what baffles me about the “POC” term and I’ll do it with a question. Abagond.., how can you put a second or third generation Asian American family into the same category as a twenty generation++ African American family?”
Linda says,
Easy– the same way I an immigrant and my children are 1st generation Americans who can relate to other 1st thru 3rd generation Asians / immigrants
who have to deal with America’s racist society and racist people
who think they are better than or smarter than us because they are (1) white and/or (2) generation ++ “real” Americans (get this from both blacks and whites)
White people don’t look at me or any other black or brown immigrant/ recent generation and think, “well let me treat them differently because they just got here”
— they’re not reserving their racial slurs and prejudices for “long term generation +++ Asians, Hispanics, or black American” — this is what “POC” have in common.
everyone (old and new) gets lumped together in the same boat based on Skin Colour, Race, or Phenotypes….that’s what white people do when they decide to judge and ask “if they are just like us” — they do this with white immigrants as well, except then
they use”religion, language, and culture” to determine if a “white” immigrant or recent generation is acceptable and how they should be treated.
Here in Miami, the white Cubans have turned the tables and they determine the pecking order based on if the white person speaks Spanish or are Latino. I’ve had a few white American colleagues who complained that they got shut out of a business deal in Miami because they felt the Cubans were being “racist” towards them because they could not speak Spanish and they were “Anglos”
This countries racism is so vastly ingrained, it touches everyone who lands on this soil.
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One thing I’ll say to people who respond here – especially white people – is to read some of Abagond’s archived posts. It will save you a lot of time if you read through the stuff linked in the right hand column and then read newer posts in the context gleaned therefrom.
I’m not entirely convinced that the basic premise of this post is quite correct. Abagond, you say:
“[…] racist thinking is too much a part of American culture. No one completely escapes it, not even people of colour.”
I think it is more fundamental; the tendency is present in all humans. That theory has been the basis of many academic and fiction writings… The insular fear of the Other, of the Not-Us. As humans have developed the capacity for rational, analytical thought there is, of course, no need to submit to the instinctive, reflexive, *primitive* instincts instilled in us by evolution and ancient cultural conditioning. Racism is found everywhere – check out Russia where, I’m assured by a Russian, things can get pretty alarming.
In that respect, humanity as a whole is a species of racists and recovering racists.
A major difference with white-on-other-ethnicity racism is that it has been exacerbated by early conquest and colonisation of large parts of the world by white Europeans. We have exercised exploitative racism from a position of power and privilege. It is not surprising that such a relatively small proportion of whites just don’t get it. We have not been the abused minority.
That imbalance, IMO, is a large part of what makes white-perpetrated racism the pressing issue, and makes it inappropriate to derail the focus by whining about how everyone else is racist too.
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Doh. ^ I meant:
“It is not surprising that such a relatively small proportion of whites get it.”
Abagond, is it possible for you to correct the post, please?
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Rick–
I agree with your view. Identifying with a group and seeing outsiders as the “other” is a human trait; it probably once served a life and death objective and at least the identification part still serves many needs, primarily psychic. Race is a simple and obvious thing people can identify with. World history, and the history of the U.S., in particular, make the race issue the thing that it is today. I just wish more white Americans understood that the effort at realizing this and trying to work against its toxic effects within oneself — even if that’s all one does– is not the exercise of “giving away” any particular assets. By that I don’t mean that “white privilege” is not an asset, it clearly is. And you can’t shuck it off by mere act of will, in fact, you can’t get rid of much of it at all, if you’re white and American. But you can choose how you will deal with others, whom you will allow yourself to be influenced by, and how you will behave politically.
Now mind you, I’m not saying this comes without cost; I’ve experienced myself being seen differently by other whites because of my views; I’ve even lost at least one fairly important friendship as a result of it. But those connections are replaced by new ones. It’s not an easy transition to go from
“racist” to “recovering racist”. It takes time and a lot of error– in many ways it’s like learning to navigate a new culture. But the gains outweigh the costs.
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@Dave
Hey, Dave, do you mind if I call you a racist? 😛
@Becca
Thanks for calling it out.
@dmerrin10000
Wow, powerful stuff!
@Kiwi
Indeed, I am trying to imagine how he might react with people in real life. He has already formed a pecking order of racial abuse, but in large part, it is an individual thing. Suppose a 4th generation Chinese-American had a great-grandfather that was lynched by a white mob, a grandfather whose store was burned to the ground by people trying to move him out of town, a father excluded from a trade (due to race) or from promotion due to bamboo ceilings and his child who personally got bullied regularly in school and could not get into university due to the SAT racial tax — his family could have had 120-130 years history of abuse and terror in America already. We cannot say that a 4th generation person has it so much easier an “FOB” immigrant who has not suffered over 100 years of racial abuse.
It would behoove him to take some Black American, Asian American etc. history and studies courses.
However, I must retort that if an Italian-American does not act and think like an Anglo (still speaks mostly Italian and makes reference to Italian ethnicity), he might not be able to (or even want to) hide that he is of ethnic Italian background, or might not be able to do it at will. I can’t agree that the goal of everyone is to hide their ethnic background.
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@ Kiwi
LOL. They might need a post of their own!! Michelle Malkin as a recovering racist, say, would not be quite the same thing as Pat Buchanan as a recovering racist (my keyboard did not explode when I put “Pat Buchanan” and “recovering racist” in the same sentence!).
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Racism is not a natural part of human behavior. People should stop using that as an excuse.
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Please correct me if I am wro but I did not know that non whites people could even be racist.I was taught that a racist have to have power (collectively) to impose their will and subjugate other groups of people Non white peoples collectivly do not yet have this type of power. Non white peoples are in charge of NOTHING only. There is a huge difference in being PREJUDICED versus RACIST. Please clarify Abagond, perhaps that is what you mean to say…. cause to say otherwise is illogical…..
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[…] How to tell if a white person is a recovering racist […]
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@ Anne:
“Racism is not a natural part of human behavior. People should stop using that as an excuse.”
I don’t know if that was a response to my comment, but in case it was:
I both agree and disagree with you. I do think there is a tribal, xenophobic and perhaps sometimes territorial instinct in humanity as a species, as there is in many species. I think I may have allowed it to seem that I was making a simple equation between this instinctive xenophobia and “Racism” in its socio-political sense.
I tried, evidently unsuccessfully, to distinguish between the two in my last two paragraphs above.
To try again:
There does seem to be a “natural” xenophobic instinct that is shared commonly by humans and many other species. This has been explored both theoretically and experimentally. A study by University of Massachusetts (last year?) demonstrated awareness in infants of racial differences in faces. There is well established theory that sees xenophobia as a kind of runaway Kin-Selection mechanism.
This is NOT the same as the deliberate, dogmatic, supremacist Racism demonstrated by whites against non-whites (and some white groups). White supremacist Racism may be driven in some part by the fear of The Other, but it is driven more by the urge to exercise power and to exploit. Racism and economics are inextricably tangled. White-perpetrated Racism is driven by the arrogance of privilege and the need to suppress perceived threats to that privilege.
Is that completely clear, that I do NOT suggest that the basic xenophobic urge is synonymous with, or equal to, Racism as understood in our discussions here?
I am convinced that the actual “supremacist” aspect, the belief in racial superiority, is a deliberately fostered dogma. It is a *designed* mindset – or if not designed it is perpetrated by people who don’t necessarily believe it, but who recognise the value to their cause of having other people believe it. It is one of an arsenal of weapons used by White Privilege to protect its interests.
The white supremacist thing is silly. We whites are the group that has most conspicuously FAILED to use intellect to suppress basic xenophobia, despite white people’s widely held belief that whites do have a biologically-based intellectual edge (arguments pointing out the limiting effects of enforced poverty and social disadvantage will always fall on deaf ears).
In the early days, before the potential for exploitation was appreciated, I think humanity DID still share a basic xenophobia. I accept that what whites have developed – aggressive, oppressive, exploitative Racism – is not the same thing.
I do NOT offer instinctive xenophobia as an excuse for Racism. I point it out as the common omnipresent seed that can grow into Racism in any group if the circumstances foster that growth.
Let me make that clear. Even if other people are Racist against whites, that does not excuse or justify white Racism in any degree whatsoever. It seems likely that the circumstance most likely to drive the development of any anti-white Racism that may exist is Racism and oppression BY whites. It is most likely reactionary and brought upon us by our own behaviours.
I’d rather get flamed for what I do say than what I don’t say.
The mention of instinctive Xenophobia was prompted by Abagond’s focus on the USA in the original post. I guess it may have been an ill-advised way of saying that the problem is more widespread.
Way to shoot myself in the foot. *Sigh*.
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Yes, short messages are better because they get to the point and leave less room for misinterpretation. But then, and I am not directing is at anyone on this post, people often use words to disguise what they really feel. They think that if they over talk a subject, the listener won’t hear what they are really trying to say. But I am a good listener.
For the record, I still believe that there is no natural precursor to racism. At all. It is and always has been a function of a deep seated hatred of ones fellow man and nothing else. It is the MOST un-Christian thing anyone can practice. As this is my belief and not a scientific theory, I would rather not debate it on a message board.
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Apologies for my verbosity. I was not aware of any ulterior motive… I just love discussion and I’m a bit long-winded. I find my thoughts often gain clarity through the process of writing.
I’ll shut up for a while.
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Except to ask, with respect, why one would introduce one’s beliefs into a discussion if one would rather not discuss them? Seems a little unfair to other participants.
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[…] How to tell if a white person is a recovering racist (abagond.wordpress.com) […]
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@Anne
Thanks .
That’s how i would have tried to put it as well, succinctly and on point. Because , one does not debate a lie.
Beside, @Rick just needs to prove his assertion by demonstrating that racism existed at least one thousand years ago and it should be an easy task for him since racism is natural and all. And if he only finds hints of xenophobia, then a demonstration that xenophobia and racism are ones and the same, might suffice.
Easy peasy
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I am not claiming that Racism is natural.
I am well aware of how badly that suggestion is perceived here. I am aware of the risk I take by even approaching the subject. I *have* read abagond’s post on that specific topic.
Hints of xenophobia are all I claim.
How much clearer do I have to state my acceptance of the extreme difference between that postulated tendency and real Racism?
Even if Racism in its active, abusive form were an instinct instilled by evolution it would be inexcusable due to the fact that intellect gives us a choice.
Some people seem determined to ascribe agendas that do not exist. I think you confuse me with trolls and apologists like Randy.
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@Kiwi,
Thank you for sharing your personal story and the transformation that occurred in your life. Actually, I have met many Asian-Americans who went through a similar process, ie, started out in early childhood with heavy exposure to the Asian cultural background of their parents or grandparents or other relatives. After they start school (and America’s dreadful education) they get whitewashed, and they start to pride themselves on how white (or Chinese might refer to it as “American”) they are becoming. Then they realize one day that no matter how “American” they are, they are still somehow, not quite white. Then they feel betrayed by a system that held out the carrot that promised them full membership in society yet kept it out of reach. The “promise” that is America is also its living hell.
Unfortunately, the education system leaves no alternative foundation to fall back on, and therefore one feels like a displaced refugee.
But that was not really my point. Yes, it is about race, but it is not all about race. There is something about shared experience (that may involve race per se, or maybe not entirely), both individual and collective. I met many Asian-Americans whose story sounds a bit similar to yours, but the biggest oppression that they could relate to me was their reaction to the incessant whitewashed indoctrination that they could join the ranks of white people, up until the day they had the rude awakening that they had been living in a fantasy world.
It is part of the reason why I had trouble relating well to many Asian Americans. Many of them told me that it is easier for me to simply elect to be white (or as what you say, “pass”). However, that is assuming that the premise is what you said
I thought this way at age 6, but learned by age 8 that I had no way in hell of “passing”. I learned that goal was hopeless at a young age and it was reinforced many times in my childhood.
– by my Alabama grandparents who reminded me that I brought shame and embarrassment to them, and that my parents would go to hell for what they did (the Bible says so). Later I learned that they would not let my mother move in (with her baby) after a fight with my father. They told me that I would never be able to be an American. Only after a few generations of dilution then maybe my grandchildren would be able to “pass”. (This was tough for an 7-8-year old to hear).
– by not being able to rent an apartment as a family or travel around the country together (eg, stay in a hotel or go to public facilities) because of the anti-miscegenation laws.
– by the people who set fires in front of my house with Japanese flags saying “J*P (I know the J-word is banned) go home! Get out of our neighborhood, threw rocks at our window, trashed our yard, stole from the property, etc. You see, after moving twice from blockbusted neighborhoods (where my mother rented apartments by pretending she was single), my family became the “blockbusting” family that they tried to run out of town.
– By being chased and bullied frequently just like the guy in the video you posted a while back. Just by watching that video I can feel the punches and kicks all over again.
– After learning that my great-grandfather was lynched in Oregon.
– During job interviews when they ask me where I learned English and how long I had been in their country
– From colleagues who asked me if I celebrate “their” holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas and Fourth of July, and if I had holidays similar to theirs.
– From ex-veterans who grumbled that they fought in the Korean / Vietnam wars so that YOU PEOPLE would not be coming HERE.
– From real estate agents who would not show me apartments unless I told them my nationality or what country I was from. And, even after telling them where I was born and grew up, where my parents are from and their ancestry – “If you don’t tell me your nationality, what will I tell the landlords?” Several agents flatly refused to show me apartments.
– “In our country, we do things like XXX. I don’t’ know about YOUR country.” LOL, Some of my ancestors have been in the USA since the Revolutionary War. How dare they claim the country for themselves!
Yet, I had many Asian-Americans told me that I should just “pass”. Even trying to pass as Latino would still be something not Asian, and therefore more acceptable to THEM. Somehow, I think those Asian-Americans just don’t get it. But the crux of that “advice” rests on the mistaken belief that the goal of everyone is to be white, or at least white enough to join the ranks of “American”. Can you consider that we can set other goals?
My experience is very different from whites. But, I found out it is quite different from most Asian-Americans. And even though I grew up in Anacostia, DC and PG county, MD, it is also different from African-Americans too. It’s like the reverse of Obama’s case. I also learned Chinese dialect before English (even though I have some white ancestors in the USA all the way back to before the Revolutionary war), and you can reclaim this too if you want to and try. It is never too late, but yes, you have to de-whitewash.
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@ C. Andrews
There are different definitions of racism. I use the dictionary one – the belief that one race is naturally better than another. What you are talking about I would call institutional racism. What I am talking about YOU would call prejudice.
In the post in the first paragraph I said that “racist thinking” is the sort of racism that people of colour can have.
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“That means seeing Asian, Black, Latino, Native and Muslim Americans as Real Americans.”
Islam is not a race thought. Its a universal religion like Christianity.
Are Americans who are leery of the Hare Krishnas “racists” as well?
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[…] That’s the message we get from this post. […]
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I think you hit the nail on the head Abagond !!! you said “There are different definitions of racism. I use the dictionary one – the belief that one race is naturally better than another.” this is very confusing because most likely it was a white person that wrote this definition in the first place and it was purposely designed to confuse us. Most white people are NOT confused about racism at all. Having said that I came across a pretty interesting video that I think is very constructive and can shed some light on how to counter racism, but first we have to agree on what Dr. Neely Fuller would call a “compensatory definition” based on logic that we can agree on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWKFtZ3_o7U
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I wish you could extrapolate everything you write about racism and apply it to misogyny. Then maybe you would understand women better. #stildisappointed
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I’d have to agree with ThatDeborahGirl on this. Abagond that’s a post l(like a few other things I could mention – Catholic religion for example?) that is long overdue. I am afraid that these are connected complimentary belief systems that will not go away – just like racism – simply by ignoring their historically damaging effects!
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@ C. Andrews
Two very acutely aware and stated observations
And this one earlier…
Even just by reading the different comments thread in this new post it is clear there is still a basic confusion between natural simple “prejudice” and the artificially imposed belief system of “racism”. And this confusion is perpetuated, unfortunately, by Abagond.
Here is my own clear response on the illogicality of this position to Abagond before….
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Kwamla,
You are correct. I also read your older posts. Racism IS an UN-natural ideology that is FORCED on the world.
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[…] How to tell if a white person is a recovering racist […]
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If I play the devil’s advocate for a minute and agree with Abagond’s definition of racism, “the belief that one race is naturally better than another” then where does racism fit in with white supremacy ??? And if they are NOT one and the same then how is one to counter racism if all the victims of racism may possibly also be considered racist ??? I compare your definition to the Trayvon Martin situation and the Stand Your Ground because the victim is also the victimizer and therfore the victimizer gets off the hook and is not accountable for their actions. This definition that Abagond use is NOT constructive at all because it does not allow the notion or thought of a victim at all- no more than Trayvon Martin was a victim and it simply let the most powerful people on the planet Racist White Supremacist off the hook for any accountability for abusing and mistreating people based on the color of their skin. As a matter of fact the white suprmacist are now referring to trayvon Martin as a racist too !!!!Racism arises out of the artificial construct of Race and non white people did not invent this nor do they have the power to define and enforce race but we are to now believe that non whites can now be RACEist as well ??? Com’on Abagond I suspect you know deep down inside that ish aint nakin no dang sense any way you dice it up and I aint even gonna start on that non sensical term of “internalized racism”…….
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Abagond,
Not sure if this is the right post for this comment but I must say, I get tired of white people who continue to not “get it”… and deny just how racist white people can be.
these are the ones that want to give the term “racism” a new definition and dress it up to be something else… such as calling a dead boy a racist because he described the stranger following him as a “cracker”… he also used the term “nigga” to describe Zimmerman but that word gets promptly forgotten by white people who want to act brand new
These white people in denial act as if segregation was a long time ago — it wasn’t. Many people are still alive who had to live through it and carry stark memories of a VERY racist America… there is no “get over it” when the children of these segregation racist are alive and well.
I remember the good ole days in the 70’s and 80’s when white people still called black people “n’ggers” in public with NO shame… now this undercover bullsh’t has them believing the lies that they tell themselves to feel better…
Here are a few recent articles that shows just how above-board white people are when it comes to admitting their own racist views:
Big Brother TV show, contestants caught giving their views on 24-hour recording that posted on the internet. (They forgot the cameras were on)
Aaryn and GinaMarie, 2 white females discussing their fellow contestant, Candice, who is black
GinaMarie: Candice is on the dark side because she already is dark (6/30 ~7:45pm)
Aaryn: Be careful what you say in the dark, you might not be able to see the bitch (6/30 ~7:45pm)
David (white male talking about Candice)
said his sheets are dirty because “black Candice” was on them (6/30 3:05pm C1)
Gina Marie calls welfare “n’gger insurance” (6/30 1:16PM Cam 1/2)
They also had “nice” things to say about their fellow Asian contestant, Helen: “Dude, shut up, go make some rice” (6/30 1:14AM)
CBS was not planning to broadcast these statements on live TV, but people have been calling them out as hypocrites for not showing these contestants for who they “really” are and their views.
Both Aaryn and Gina Marie have been fired from their day jobs for their comments.
http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/big-brother-cast-members-accused-of-racism-homophobia-201337
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@ Linda
I am shocked, truly shocked. /sarcasm off “Want to act brand new” is right.
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@ C. Andrews
I am not that far from Kwamla. Like him I think “prejudice” is not strong enough – it sounds like a personal fault that everyone suffers from, a part of the human condition, but not one with overarching effects on society.
Like him I also see racism as an ideology, one that is not at all “natural”, one that goes WAY beyond the us-and-them thinking that probably is part of human nature. This ideology, call it white supremacism if you like, was made up to excuse Western power and its crimes – genocide, slavery, colonization, ongoing inequality, etc.
For Black Americans that ideology takes three main forms:
1. Institutional racism – ongoing racism of banks, housing market, etc;
2. Internalized racism – racism against one’s race by believing the lies of white supremacism: good hair, Tommy Sotomayor, Clarence Thomas, colourism, being whitewashed, high levels of self-destructive behaviour, etc;
3. Historical racism – present-day effects of past racism, like the wealth gap.
Can blacks be racist? Yes. But it is mainly against themselves (internalized racism) and, even when directed against whites, does not have much power behind it. Getting beat up in high school by blacks is about as bad as it gets for whites – because blacks do not run most of the banks, universities, film studios, television networks, police departments, courts and so on. NOR does it have the support of schoolbooks, science, media stereotypes, etc. There are some black supremacist thinkers, but no black supremacist thinking among most Black Americans. Instead most of their thinking is white supremacist to a cringeworthy degree.
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Agabond, to put it simply, any person who agrees with, supports, accepts, defends, or perpetuates the ERRONEOUS, UNNATURAL thinking that one set of physical human traits is superior to any other, IS a racist. The TRUTH is that only one group of human beings has practiced this ideology for centuries. Only one.
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@Anne, I agree with you that racism and racist thinking is or may be unnatural, however I am no scientist to confirm this, I just recently learned thatthe gene for blue eyes is recessive and lacks pigment and most likely affects vision and other health issues. It was stated that for eons humans had brown and black eyes and there are a few theories out that may explain this genetic mutation. I know for a fact that white people uphold this lack of pigment via blue eyes and blonde have and underveloped physique of flat behinds and ultra thin lips. Would that make me a racist for thinking brown eyes , melanated skin and full lips are superior genetically to blue eyes and thin lips ???? how to counter this racism if this is indeed racist thinking. the truth of the matter is in the Afrocentic movement as a whole that is made up of VICTIMS of racist thinking believes that blacks are the ORIGINAL most perfected of the human species, It seems that science and I dont mean psycho babble science is bearing this out. So I guess according to your logic victims are once again the victimisers, smdh……
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There is no such thing as a perfect person. Science proves that we are all descendants of the first humans in Africa. It does not prove superiority. I am sorry if this is confusing for you. But my opinion still stands. Only one group has perpetuated this error in thinking.
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@Anne, I too am sorry this is still confusing for me and probably most other non white people, it was purposely designed to be confusing by the same group that you suspect has perpetuated this error in thinking. I think you would agree that this one group has power and priviledges untold over the other groups to be able to perpetuate this critical error in thinking that is causing global and systemic human rights abuse…. I am still LEARNING.
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@Abagond , let’s say for the time being I agree with your logic of racism; then to become a Counter Racist would not include just tackling White Supremacy, it would also target all the victims of Racisms thereby putting the victims at DOUBLE Jeopardy – so to speak. Does this make any sense to you at all to even counter racism ???I must say that this whole discussion is but one of the reasons that white people are supreme and run the whole planet earth, thay are clever powerful masters of deceit and cunning lies all with WORDS and of course weapons of mass destruction as back up. Hats off to Mr. Neely Fuller for finally taking a lot of the confusion out of their system of magic and deception by fully analyzing their words deeds and actions and of course following the lOGIC instead of a particular person. This is my opinion and I must admit I could be wrong and or misinformed……
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@Kiwi, maybe it is the incorrect use of words that are causing confusion and misunderstanding between you and I. When you use the term “internalized racism” my brain does not compute, this term for me is a misnomer. Now if you are speaking of the EFFECTS of Racism then that is a horse of a different color !!!When you talk about Sotomayer bashing black women, aka anti-blackness and asians bashing other asians, that is the EFFECTS that VICTIMS of Racism suffer from- the side effects may be a better choice of words, this creates further strife and disdain (anti-blackness) amongst the victims, especially the black people. They immoralized this in the fictionalized Willie Lynch Letter. But Please Kiwi, coose your words more carefully because indirectly you may be aiding and abetting the white supremacist……
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I think most readers on this blog know exactly what this means and it has been discussed extensively. If it does not compute for you, it does not mean that it is necessarily incorrect. It *could* be a side-effect of victimization of racism but it does not have to be caused by a direct incident of racism towards a victim.
Any good course or even book on race relations or ethnic studies should address this concept. If you are confused or encounter misunderstanding, then it should be quite a straightforward matter (but perhaps not a simple one) to educate oneself.
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You said ” Any good course or even book on race relations or ethnic studies should address this concept. If you are confused or encounter misunderstanding, then it should be quite a straightforward matter (but perhaps not a simple one) to educate oneself.” This sounds very naieve at best…. since when have you known the victimizer to make it so easy and straight forward to acess the TRUTH about an issue that a lot of thought and planning went into to purposely confuse and dupe the victims ???? Surely this is illogical to you….Us victims must STOP this nonsense of looking toward our abusers to provide us with accurate TRUTHFUL information that will enlighten us to our true situation. That is like waiting and looking to George Zimmerman to tell the truth about his murdering Trayvon Martin, then telling Trayvon’s family all they have to do is READ the Transcript of Zimmerman’s initial testimoney, smdh !!!! I know Trojan Pam has a very constructive Racism 101 bootcamp on her blog that is extremely constructive and she has posted on here numerous times so I know you and a lot of commenters on here are not unfamiliar with her. Here is her website in case you or anyone may at least want to check it out http://theblackcodefiles.com/2013/05/08/the-counter-racism-boot-camp-is-now-in-session/
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[…] kinds of discrimination that are hard to identify, very hard to prove outwardly and sometimes also very hard to admit. Following the successes of civil rights movements, covert racism has become the default position […]
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A thoughtful piece as usual, Julian. Here’s response on Migrant Tales entitled Confessions of a recovering racist.
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Nice, but Black people are racist too. Most people are somewhat racist. I think the qualifiers apply to all people, not just white people
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^ Abagond said he will do the companion post for blacks or other POC. This does not only apply to white people, but perhaps some of the *signs* are more unique to white people.
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TBWO – most people are not somewhat racist. I have never seen an anonymous survey that reveals this to be true. The closest I’ve seen is a majority of people admitting they are ‘slightly’ racist (Nordic countries). It would be wrong to assume it is somehow ‘natural’. And the kind of racism practiced in today’s societies against blacks and now also to a greater extent that previously against Arabs is on a totally different level to the kind of ‘opinion-based’ racism you seem to refer to – it is institutionalised racism, that affects the justice system, the health and public service sectors, the employment sector and the educational system. It is a wholesale failure to properly resource these institutions in a way that provides EQUALITY and EQUITY to people of colour. You seem to assume that racism must be ‘equally’ distributed and so focusing on ‘white racism’ only generates more antagonism. Perhaps you should focus on the real issues of equality and not suggest false equivalences for how racism affects blacks and whites.
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The Imperial Japanese (20th Century) actually believed and practiced the same ideology. in regard to the superiority of their people and culture.
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@King and Abagond, you said “The Imperial Japanese (20th Century) actually believed and practiced the same ideology. in regard to the superiority of their people and culture.” Both of you are forgetting an important aspect of racism- let us call it the Power Dynamic aspect of racism, this is what makes racism different than just a prejudice or bigotry. No one but people who classify themselves as whitehave this power. What Abagond and a lot of non white people have done is to use their DEFINITION of Racism which permits the victims to become the psuedo – victimizers(Of course in name and theory only) then the TRUE racist can control your thought processes. you have LOST…
Racism is the most detructive violent system on the planet. Besides they are the ones who made up race in the first place as a global system used to abuse and mistrat people they categorize as non white. Please read this recent NY times article; http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/opinion/sunday/sunday-dialogue-the-meaning-of-race.html?pagewanted=all&_r=2&
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I have little argument with what you say, but I think there is an important context being ignored. Racism is just one form of prejudice against “the other” i.e. anyone who is not a member of the group you identify with. Us and them.
This prejudice and animosity takes many many many forms. Anytime that anybody perceives you as not being “one of them” the potential for this kind of prejudice is there.
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rofl, if u do come back plz shorten that long ass name don’t nobody wanna type all that when trying to reply. lmbao.
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The crazy thing about this article is how I (an adult white American male) Googled the key words “why is there no such support groups for recovering racists?”
You see, I definitely have my struggles like the rest of you, and yes I do struggle with racism, but not for feelings of superiority or what you may think of a typical racist. Actually most racists that I know are racist solely out of inopportunity rather than a feeling of superiority.
The main thing we as white “racist” people get hung up on is how socially acceptable it is to hate us. How taboo it is in this country to even mention the word black or civil rights etc… Anything to do with that subject really.
We see and feel a hypocrisy in society who favors blacks, gays, children, and Hispanics, all at the expense of trying to make adult white males feel guilty of something totally out of our control.
I never hated you guys because I am an arrogant asshole who believes I am better than you! I only harbor hate due to society making me feel inadequate! I know it’s hard for some of you guys to see or understand this, but it does exist. Racism and prejudice against adult white heterosexual men is wide spread in this country and I feel it daily, even while doing something as simple as watching tv.
I mean it hasn’t gotten to a serious point of enslavement or anything, but we as “racist” white people are worried that this will eventually be the fact of life in our children’s future. The social injustices are already happening, just not on a large scale “yet”.
We can’t help what skin color we were born with and we can’t control the outcome of history that’s already happened with slaves etc… I guess we as “racists” just simply feel socially awkward and out of place in this country! We feel just as much like a minority as you do. With racism brings more racism, but yet a lot of blacks deny that they can even be racist! This idea fucks with us and angers us, so we do the only thing we know how. To defend ourselves! Which automatically places a label on us as these ignorant racist assholes. Please keep in mind that my definition of a “racist white adult male” is not that of the Neo-Nazi skinhead movement or the ideology of the KKK, but instead it’s the common normal white person just trying to live day to day. The closet racist who fear judgment of being labeled a racist, but yet feel this way due to social inequalities. I do not like feeling this way, and I do not like to hate, but I can’t get over it. I see how favored you are in this generation and I feel like the middle child who was left out! That is it in a nutshell, and I can speak for many closet racist white men! As a matter of fact it is a much bigger problem than you guys actually may think it is, because most white men I come across are very upfront and willing to embrace a conversation about racism with me when I bring it up. It’s getting to the point where it is becoming comfortable to talk with these guys about the subject without fear of persecution. Plain and simple, we do not have the desire to be your scapegoats and that is what drives this whole issue! If you truly did not want any racism in the world, and really didn’t thrive on a cornered market of placing blame, than you would do as the awesome Morgan Freeman said and “stop talking about it”. You would stop celebrating diversity (division=hate)in this country and start embracing unity (addition=love). You would stop thinking of everything in terms of color, or black and white. I am only asking these things of you, but you’re free, so you can choose to do what you want. I truly do want to live in peace and have a friend in all of you. Just think about what I’ve said please! Thank you for listening.
Jeff
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Wow! Ok well I finally got a chance to read most of the replies on here and I just gotta say that I regretfully posted that last long comment without reading any of your comments! But man after reading most of your comments about racism and superiority I am now wondering why I even tried to settle any differences. You people truly do believe that you are superior by your comments and you are the real racists! I owe you absolutely nothing and that “entitled” mentality will get you nowhere fast.
What confuses me is how many white people actually try to embrace you, but yet most blacks do not share this sentiment. You thrive on controversy or something, I’m not sure, but it sure seems that way. It seems as if you guys dwell on racism for sympathy and benefits.
Let me ask you something, what do I owe you as a 35 year old white man who’s entire family migrated here after the Civil War and promptly converted to Mormons who never owned slaves? What? What do I owe you? An apology for being in a family of poor Irishmen and women? I also grew up in poverty! I also get discriminated against! What will it take to get through to you guys that not every single race of “whites” even had anything to do with slavery or oppression of “blacks”? What? Am I not being reasonable here? I really don’t understand (nor do most white people) your ways in thinking entitled! Get over yourselves, there has been slavery of all races throughout thousands of years of human history! Guess what? We all get over it eventually!
Is this race card your guys’ sole argument in life? Because it sure seems that way! Is everything you guys do or say revolve around the word “racist”? Everybody has prejudice and if you think otherwise than not only are you ignorant and self righteous, but you are the real racists in today’s society! You all live in the most free nation on the Planet, and live quite comfortably compared to many nations (even those of war torn Eastern Europe and Russia)! Guess what? Those people are white! Do hate them too? They never even lived in America to act any kind of way towards you or your people, but I’m willing to bet that you place them in the same category as any American white person! No wonder we are racist toward you! Do something productive and stop whining about the past! If you do that than maybe all cities won’t become Detroit!
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@Jeff
“What confuses me is how many white people actually try to embrace you, but yet most blacks do not share this sentiment.”
Who and where? You mean the 90% of suburban whites who live in neighborhoods with less than 1% of blacks?
And it isn’t because most blacks live ghettos. Most blacks are middle-class.
You should have saved yourself all that typing and just went to Broken Records.
#wehearditallbefore
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What confuses me is how many white people actually try to embrace you, but yet most blacks do not share this sentiment.
The only white person I would want to embrace me is a white man who looks like Steve Reeves!:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqMYhv6x96k&list=TLRnOETKpz_gw)
Yowza!!!
It seems as if you guys dwell on racism for sympathy and benefits.
You are right! Last week I went to the grocery store and was given a six pack and a hotdog by sympathetic whites! I don’t even imbibe alcoholic beverages. I ended up giving the beer to the white bums lolling around the grocery store as they descended on me!
Let me ask you something, what do I owe you as a 35 year old white man who’s entire family migrated here after the Civil War and promptly converted to Mormons who never owned slaves? What? What do I owe you?
How about an apology for being so dense?
Am I not being reasonable here?
Nope.
Is this race card your guys’ sole argument in life?
Seeing as how youse whites are holding all the aces I’d say no. But I will tell you this though, blacks hold meetings regularly in order to come up with more arguments against whites in order to get more stuff off them. In fact I am going to one tonight as the corner coffee shop. Any suggestions?
Is everything you guys do or say revolve around the word “racist”?
Racist!
No wonder we are racist toward you
No sir, you were always racist, you are just trying to justify it to yourself. Anyone reading your comment already knows you are. You have managed to use quite a few white racist arguments, not very good ones at that.
Thank you for listening.
Thanks for the jokes!
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@Jeff:
As that post was so long I have to consider that you weren’t just trolling. It would be a lot of work to put into winding people up.
How deeply have you read the stuff on this site?
I can see how a superficial read of selected posts and comments can be alarming. When I first came here my first instinct was Whoa! Lots of white-hating black people here. My first attempts to join in conversations were not spectacularly successful.
A few things you need to understand and accept:
1) This is not primarily a site aimed at achieving some kind of fluffy racial reconciliation. Most whites don’t seem to want that and many of the POC here are far too suspicious of whites to view it as likely to happen.
2) As well as his current affairs commentary, Abagond posts historical stuff which white visitors would do well to read. The context they offer provides a framework within which we may begin to understand the perspectives of commenters here – if we make just a little effort.
3) You have walked right into a ready made list of predictable white responses and pretty much ticked a lot of the boxes as you went. “It wasn’t me”, “blacks are racist”, “blacks have a chip on the shoulder”, “not all whites are racist”…
You complain about blacks feeling “entitled”. How can an accusation like that sensibly work coming from a white person to POC? White people not only feel entitled, white people have it made. We white people have what many of us feel entitled to. We are the power-wielding elite. Ok, the real elite despise poor whites almost as much as they despise POC – to them all proles are n*****s, but even a poor white man/woman has fewer cards stacked against him/her than a poor black man/woman.
To convince POC that you at least WANT to be pro-equality, not racist and a good neighbour, quit whining, quit denying, quit making it about you.
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Another racist White troll ^ above. Ugh. Most White Americans(80%- 90%) are racist whether they realize it or not. It is built in their sub or unconscious mind to view Blacks and non White minorities as inferior to them. Also they wouldn’t ever admit to benefitting from the privileges that the system gives them for being on top socially, economically and politically. When Blacks point out White privilege to Whites, they would deny that it exists or say that we are making it up to make it seem like we are imagining things or something. And many of them wouldn’t even take responsibility for the way their ancestors treated Blacks and Native Americans in the past because they believe that they aren’t like their ancestors. Because MOST of them are just LIKE their ancestors! Thus I don’t find White people trustworthy or even honest enough to admit how racist they truly are.
I live around Whites and go to school with them. I try so hard to stay as far away from them as I can. I would say hello if they say hello to me. That is it.
In my mind, there is no such thing as a recovering White racist. They are all racist UNLESS proven otherwise.
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[…] is still no authoritative field guide to racists, but a start has been made with a checklist to identify recovering American racists, and a description of 11 types of American racist. However, […]
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