The following is mostly based on “Relationship Wrecks”, chapter two of Tom Burrell’s “Brainwashed” (2010):
Why does black love in America seem to fail so much? Can anything be done about it?
While the white media does play up whatever troubles black people have and make them seem worse than they are, the bare facts are true:
- high rates of children being born to single mothers as compared to other Americans,
- high rates of domestic violence,
- high rates of people who have never been married.
Blacks also have high rates of poverty but that alone is not whole reason for the breakdown in marriage and family. While it is true, for example, that black men are more likely to beat their wives or girlfriends when they are out of work, Irish and Jewish families in America, no matter how poor, never experienced such high rates of brokenness.
Slavemasters destroyed the black family. On purpose. Unlike Jews and the Irish:
- Blacks were bred and sold like animals.
- Black men had no way to protect or support their families. They could not stop their wives and daughters from being raped, their sons from being sold off, themselves from being whipped, mutilated or killed.
- Black women learned to have little faith in black men and to look to white men for help.
As slaves black men and women had their worthlessness pounded into their heads.
They learned:
- Disrespect – putting each other down, looking down on and mistrusting each other. As slaves they could not put faith in each other.
- The beat-down – hurting each other in mind, body, spirit and heart. Something blacks grew to accept as slaves. Something black men copied from white slavemasters, their only powerful image of manhood. From white men they learned to see black women as something to control and possess, not love, respect and protect.
- Expectation of unfaithfulness – grew out of an unquestioned belief in black male and female unworthiness.
- Icing – shutting down your heart and keeping your distance, even from your partner, to limit any further pain.
It has become a vicious circle that has lasted down to our day, made worse by welfare and mass incarceration in the late 1900s. Absent fathers and overprotective mothers reproduce the same unhealthy relationships in their sons and daughters. Internalized racism helps to keep these ideas in place with the help of the image of blacks pushed by the likes of Maury Povich, black comedians and others.
What to do?
Burrell:
Since negative propaganda got us to this point, I maintain that positive propaganda will be the key to our resolution. Fortunately for us, there are many positives examples in the past and present that we can resurrect, emulate and, if necessary, expand.
There is not just the examples of successful black relationships and families, but helpful counter-propaganda, such as:
- BlackAndMarriedWithKids.com
- “Be a Father to Your Child: Real Talk from Black Men on Family, Love and Fatherhood” (2008), April Silver, editor
- “NO! The Rape Documentary“, a documentary film by Aishah Shahidah Simmons
See also:
I’ve always said it, the dehumanization and brutality has made us want to run away from each other because we’ll see value everywhere else but. Our destruction was meant to feed the prosperity of others and it has to stop already. While I don’t necessarily think marriage is the answer, I do believe a supportive, loving family is important (whatever form that comes in), I know it’s helped me fend off a lot of a sh!te the world throws at me as a black woman.
I adore that pic of Barack and Michelle, there’s a raw ‘connectedness’ in it, its not a studio portrait or a PR shot, it’s simply a moment in time, I love it!
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Abagond thank you for this post. I feel that it says what needs to be said and cuts right to the point. It is disheartening to see how much Black men and Women are put down in the media, and by self professed experts who don’t have a clue, and who are also disinclined to listen to the voice of reason. I hope that this post will somehow make it into the mainstream media, and be tweeted, blogged, and linked to.
As a side note, walking through slave castles and hearing the narrative of what happened to Black people, really led me to believe that there is so much healing needed. The psychological damage runs deep, but over time, and like Burrell pointed out, this can be changed. The pictures of Black men and women who love each other and mirror a healthy stable relationship are wonderful. Again, thank you.
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Beautifully written…love the picture of Ossie and Ruby! Yes, there is a LOT of truth in what you stated here.
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Tom Burrell wasn’t alive anywhere near the time of American slavery, so how can he be sure of the sociological effects that ensued upon the enslaved population because of it?
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The only flaw in this is that black families were relatively comparable to those of whites before the 1950’s. I don’t notice this breakdown in older members of my family.
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I really hate the term ‘black love’…
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I’m glad you finally got around to writing this post! Good job.
In this day and age of licenses, certificates, permits that ALLOW/regulate us to do just about any and everything, I’m a *little* surprised there’s no basic minimum qualification/education/requirement that’s needed to become a parent … not that I have any good ideas about how such a policy/process could be implemented or enforced. I am not a proponent of sterilization.
Babies, in my opinion, shouldn’t be giving birth to babies – for wrong/immature reasons – and – because they are ill equipped/unable to provide for the basic needs of their children.
So what’s the answer??
How can blacks break this downward family spiral? How do we change what’s not good for us as a people?
???
OUR own no-nonsense schools indoctrinating our children (and the rest of us) with POSITIVE *revolutionary* propaganda/doctrines/truth/messages? Why not? Gotta try/start somewhere!
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@ The Cynic…yeah, I don’t really like that term either. Love is love. But it’s not the actual term that matters, it’s the concept behind it. It is nice to see Black couples who love, cherish and respect one another. Much of that has been lost.
@ Matari…it sounds like you’re talking about the issue of unwed motherhood/teen pregnancy as it pertains to Black people. I believe this is an issue that runs very deep. Many young girls who become mothers at an early age are sexually active because they need validation and love. When the consequences of sexual activity lead to babies, some of these girls aren’t really thinking about the long term. They are simply happy to feel that they have something that fills that void inside, whether it stems from lack of a father figure or abuse or something else. The issue of “babies having babies” can be fixed with education…not only about sex, but about self-esteem. I find that a lot of young girls, especially girls who are from broken homes or toxic environments, use sex to get love and in some cases they wind up with babies.
So that would be a good place to start.
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Through researching documentation.
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Not always.
Then again, it never fails; a public declaration of black people loving one another almost always draws suspicion–mostly from other blacks.
Why is this?
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We can start by not romanticizing history(e.g. we are “destroyed”, or “when we were in ancient times all was good”) and focusing on the now, which is more positive than people let on. I suggest looking at the Toldson and Marks study. Others will soon follow, i’m sure.
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Part of the problem is the constant statistical comparisons between Black people and White people. This has been going on for hundreds of years. It’s America’s way of comparing “good” and “bad”. Whites being good, Blacks being bad.
Also, no one ever questions bad statistics or studies about Black people. I’ve never heard of anyone trying to replicate these studies or statistics. Which means that both Black and White Americas are willing to believe anything bad about Black people.
Finally, statistics and studies on and about Black people are always used to re-enforce stereotypes. We never hear stats or studies about areas in which Black people are doing well. For instance why don’t we ever hear that the poverty rates among African Americans has been declining for decades?
So I agree with Mr. Burrell when he says we need our own propaganda machines. We need our own media, our own social scientists, our own educational system.
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Also on the same note about babies having babies…I work with disadvantaged girls and teen mothers. A few are white, but most aren’t.
One girl was 16 and her situation was sad. She came from a really bad environment…mom worked all the time, father was absent, stepfather was extremely abusive. She was Black. She had very low self-esteem, despite being a sweet, intelligent young lady. Her boyfriend basically told her what she needed to hear and that was all it took. She wound up pregnant and trapped in a terrible situation. Her mother wanted her to abort, while her boyfriend and his family (affluent Black people) wanted her to keep the baby. She reluctantly decided to have an abortion because there was no other option. She had no money to take care of a baby and the guy refused to help her with anything. His family looked down on her because she was poor and they put thoughts in his mind about her. He also turned abusive, especially after the abortion. He and his family expected her to have the baby but they wouldn’t help her with anything at all.
So I would also say that some young men definitely need an education in responsibility and how to treat women. If you get somebody pregnant, all of the burden shouldn’t fall on her. Don’t bail on her because you don’t want to handle your business. Positive images and positive reinforcement starts at home. There is a lot of trash out there and it can poison the mind. I know quite a few happily married Black couples, but I also know some Black men with this mentality that Black women are “bitches” and “whores”. And sadly, some girls and women come to accept this view of themselves.
I don’t really think anyone can actually be stopped from having babies, short of medical problems or sterilization (which is borderline eugenics). But I do believe that education and self-esteem are the key to many issues. No, it won’t be some magical solution but it could help.
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I can’t really get behind this particular post. Prior to 1965, there were much less incidents of single mothers, domestic violence and people not being married in the Black community. It would be really strange to attribute the current state of the African American community to slave conditions, especially since the debilitating cycle had been successfully broken a few generations ago. There is definitely something sinister going on in the Black community with regards to the mentioned issues, but it has nothing to do with slavery.
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Yes, we’re all aware of the endless studies that account for the inequality between blacks and whites. We hear about it more than a commercial for a Big Mac.
What I’m interested in is what accounts for the blacks who succeed in America. What is it that separates blacks who achieve a level of financial success from those who spend a life in poverty? I suspect this will be harder to answer.
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It is much harder to answer and riles up a lot of emotions; much like the topics of black IRR does.
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I’m not so sure about this…i wouldn’t simplify the ongoing dynamics of history.
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“There is definitely something sinister going on in the Black community with regards to the mentioned issues, but it has nothing to do with slavery.”
***********
SomeGuy, you’ve made an interesting/viable point.
Yet I do think slavery (colonized thinking/self hatred) has something to do with it – but perhaps not as much as we’ve (collectively?) believed.
Prior to the 1970’s, the words (and the culture behind) “shame” and “dignity” had MEANING in our community. Now those words are antiquated, even dead – no one uses them anymore … everything and anything goes now. Today nothing is off limits, too scandalous/embarrassing or downright disgraceful.
The Hippy and Feminist (whiteness) movements didn’t help move our community forward …
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@ SomeGuy…so what do you think it could be then? As Phoebe said, I wouldn’t simplify the dynamics of history either. Slavery and internalized racism often go hand in hand. Abagond broke it down when he said that the destruction of the Black family and unity started with slavery. I don’t think it is too farfetched to believe that events from the past can affect the present.
@ Matari…you make some very good points. I’m not completely against the hippy movement or feminism because they did bring about some awareness and some positive changes, but I see where you’re coming from.
Part of what some feminists (mostly white ones) preach is that as a woman, you don’t need men. Which I guess is true in some cases. But that hasn’t worked out so well for a lot of Black women, especially those that are struggling financially or otherwise. The feminist movement wasn’t really created with women of color in mind…it was mostly for the benefit of privileged white women who wanted to do away with sexism and be able to do the same things that their male counterparts could. But it didn’t really address the issues of sexism AND racism that WOC often deal with.
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With The Cynic on this “Black Love” is a bogus term and co-opting the suffering of our greats x3 and x4 is just rotten.
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@Matari
Black Power, not to be confused with Black Civil Rights activism, is responsible for the cultural shift away from African American values and traditions that sustained 2 generations of consistent progress.
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While I do think I may have been a bit dismissive of slavery (well maybe a lot) as a cause, I think I would rather say that it is most likely not a major cause. To be honest, I have no clue why this would happen in our community. Since I am primarily a hermit, this falls out of the boundaries of my expertise, so I will just observe the input of those with more insight.
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Slavery and segregation no doubt plays a part in Blacks having broken families and communities. Many Blacks simply live in survival mode just as they did during slavery and even afterwards. I met a woman today who is newly retired. She grew up in Compton CA where there were “coon catchers” who would beat or chase Blacks who dared to venture out of the designated Black neighborhood. How can healthy humans thrive in that type of environment? Your main goal is to simply make it through the day.
The solution to fix some of this is to eliminate most of the media noise that constantly tells Blacks how worthless we are and always have been. Some of it appears benign but it affects us whether we know or care to admit it.
Black people also need collective psychological therapy. We need to understand how the past has affected us so that we can change the future.
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ironically, most couples i’ve seen together (never been divorced) have been black and asian families, and most people I know from divorced households are white..
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Now about the Black love thing, I will date and marry a man of any color as long as he treats me right. As a matter of fact I have been attracted to White males since elementary school. As a Black woman I don’t have a problem with the term Black Love. According to many media sources Black women are the bane of the Black man’s existence. Beloved comedian Chris Rock has made the hard to get along with Black woman a staple in his routines. Kevin Hart is doing the same thing.
Based on who gets attention in the media, it appears that almost all Black men in professional sports or entertainment are with non Black women or very light Black women. The conclusion is Black men dislike Black women, especially the darker skinned ones.
If men that look like your father, brothers, and uncles are proclaiming to world how undesirable you are how can one not feel pain behind that? Black love affirms to Black women that they can be loved by a Black man, if that’s what she desires.
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I don’t think it’s just slavery that’s the cause of this. I think the general history of the oppressing of black people after slavery which included – as stated in the article – welfare and mass incarceration. We also must note the Black Codes, Jim Crow, genocides, the War on Drugs (mass incarceration) and everything else in-between.
I always like to include the media when discussing this because I think it plays a significant role in how black people see themselves. It is a continuous campaign of making black people feel and appear inferior to whites all for the sake of white supremacy. No civilized society would ever engage in this let alone deny its existence.
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@saadiyah
“Black love affirms to Black women that they can be loved by a Black man, if that’s what she desires.”
Or it puts a premium on race instead of compatibility making “Black” the thing in common. Another thing we might want to as ourselves is why a black couple is needed to validate a black woman?
I read a back and forth between 2 bloggers about rather black women should or even could “compete” for the affection of black men when it came to other races of women. The woman said no of course and when for sympathy. The man said yes, taking a Hyper-Non PC stance that bordered on hate speech. Neither mentioned that affection and respect are freely given so competing for it is like holding your pee. I guess my point is that black couples are politicized to the point where they’re decoys.
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“Part of what some feminists (mostly white ones) preach is that as a woman, you don’t need men. Which I guess is true in some cases. But that hasn’t worked out so well for a lot of Black women, especially those that are struggling financially or otherwise.”
*******
Cinnamondiva,
If “otherwise” includes being good/excellent FATHERS/role models for their daughters & sons …. because without that we are doomed to fail!
Also.. If our children don’t see nurturing, supportive/loving ROLES/relationships amongst our men and women (parents), how then will they be equipped/expected to form viable and lasting meaningful relationships that’ will produce the next generation of HEALTHY/healthful THINKING children? They need to see how children centered relationships are supposed to be/work – not the mess they been seeing for the last few generations!
We fared much better as a community when there were at least three generations living in one household – or close by.
Unless we make our children our number one priority – and are willing to sacrifice our wants and so forth for their sake, not so much for their material/superficial well being but more for their mental and emotional THINKING of how they should approach life/love/relationships – with themselves and others, it’s game over because right now we’re heading too quickly in the wrong direction.
WarrenAZ – could you give a few examples of HOW the black power movement caused the cultural shift away from traditional black values and traditions?
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The divide and conquer mentality is employed to the fullest when it comes to “Black Love”. Looking to The Elite, i.e. “Hollywood” or “The media” is farcical because these are the main enemies of the black race and are the ones employing tactics to dismantle or destroy, “Black Love” . The Black race at this point has shown itself to be quite gullible when any bit of misinformation is thrown into our midst, i,e, “Black women are mean, overweight and unworthy of love”,or “Black men are on the down-low” we tend to squabble over this misinformation like a pack of wild dogs instead of examining where and how this “information” is being disseminated. The “media” has been the black race’s
“enemy” since it’s inception, even so-called “Black news” being disseminated by “black news organisations” is an instrument of The Elite. Hollywood has no love for the black race and had demonstrated this time and time again with a very obvious dearth of images of “black love” and no major Black female screen “goddesses” , If we, as a race, had a brain in our heads .. Hollywood would be the first aspect of the media we should look away from.because it is very damaging to the black race specifically black youth who are very responsive to the suggestions that black women are “unworthy” for black men and black women who are being “goaded” into looking at other men from different races to seek “fulfillment” and “appreciation”. The “Language” of love between black men and black women is abysmal as well with black men believing “the hype” and approaching and interacting with black women as if they are doing black women a favor by bestowing consideration and their attentions upon us. This too is infiltration by the “media” i.e. The Elite. In effect the black race needs to “Grow up” and learn to separate exactly what information we will allow in our midst and turn away from that info which is “detrimental” to us. White supremacy is stronger than ever employing tactics to indicate that blacks must strive for validation from the white racist power structure and allow our entrails to be picked through by any white who calls us out.The truth is oow births and the death of “marriage” is a phenomemon in the white community as well with oow births and white women opting out of marriage yet having children at almost 60% in nations like Sweden and The U.K…The white man is fully aware of this but he ain’t sharing that piece of the puzzle with Black’s gullible asses. Food for thought.
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@ commentarybyvalentina..
U r absolutely correct, noone ever questions statistics done about black people. These “studies” are very pervasive and dangerous because they are not conducted or disseminated in a responsible manner. These “studies” are being done to placate white’s insatiable need to feel “superior” to Blacks and to make whites feel good about the idea that we still have not gotten our shit together as a race.I think the misinformation being disseminated by the white racist media in regards to black people is very similar and as “dangerous” as the misinformation being disseminated by Germans in regards to “the jewish question” or “problem” prior to WWII. First of all “the black question” or “problem” suggests that the sloppy, amoral ways of the negro ( yes this is how they think in relation to us) cannot be addressed or rectified by negros becauseour men are too busy chasing white or hispanic women and being absentee fathers and our women are too busy seeking validation as sexual and domestic figures by white men.So it is up to the white race, those geniuses , to come up with a viable and effective solution to “The Black question” lol.. And if we examine how whites handle issues of this nature in the past, what do u think that will be..lol.
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deepdkchocolate said:
“The divide and conquer mentality is employed to the fullest when it comes to “Black Love”. Looking to The Elite, i.e. “Hollywood” or “The media” is farcical because these are the main enemies of the black race and are the ones employing tactics to dismantle or destroy, “Black Love” . The Black race at this point has shown itself to be quite gullible when any bit of misinformation is thrown into our midst, i,e, “Black women are mean, overweight and unworthy of love”,or “Black men are on the down-low” we tend to squabble over this misinformation like a pack of wild dogs instead of examining where and how this “information” is being disseminated. The “media” has been the black race’s
“enemy” since it’s inception, even so-called “Black news” being disseminated by “black news organisations” is an instrument of The Elite. Hollywood has no love for the black race and had demonstrated this time and time again with a very obvious dearth of images of “black love” and no major Black female screen “goddesses” , If we, as a race, had a brain in our heads .. Hollywood would be the first aspect of the media we should look away from.because it is very damaging to the black race specifically black youth who are very responsive to the suggestions that black women are “unworthy” for black men and black women who are being “goaded” into looking at other men from different races to seek “fulfillment” and “appreciation”. The “Language” of love between black men and black women is abysmal as well with black men believing “the hype” and approaching and interacting with black women as if they are doing black women a favor by bestowing consideration and their attentions upon us. This too is infiltration by the “media” i.e. The Elite. In effect the black race needs to “Grow up” and learn to separate exactly what information we will allow in our midst and turn away from that info which is “detrimental” to us. White supremacy is stronger than ever employing tactics to indicate that blacks must strive for validation from the white racist power structure and allow our entrails to be picked through by any white who calls us out.The truth is oow births and the death of “marriage” is a phenomemon in the white community as well with oow births and white women opting out of marriage yet having children at almost 60% in nations like Sweden and The U.K…The white man is fully aware of this but he ain’t sharing that piece of the puzzle with Black’s gullible asses. Food for thought.”
Vin says:
Wow you’re on point! Black americans (and Black latinos) take heed of what she said.
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According to US Department of Labor statistics, the black out-of-wedlock birth rate in 1963 was 23.6 percent.Today it stands above 72%.
Does Burrell suggest that racism and the effects from slavery have actually increased since the mid-1960’s? The “historical argument” seems incomplete at best.
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@ Lara , ur views on Hollywood are ur views, the bigger question is why do other groups believe all the misinformation about blacks being generated by Hollywood, there was a time when blacks were depicted as shuffling morons who bowed and scraped in cinema,People believed this depiction of blacks. In the 70’s all black men in cinema were criminals and rapists these images were believed by a majority of the population with white women when they saw black men crossing the street to avoid them.So why ask how and why media is affecting blacks when media affects everyone. Right now The media is asserting imagery and notions that middle eastern people are dark sinister and all terrorists , something that a majority of americans believe. Media is pervasive and dangerous because it is something that the masses are inundated with when we drive when we sit at home in the workplace when we seek entertainment when we visit the airport and when we watch television we are being subjected to and inundated with “media” and that is everyone.
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@ Lara to question why blacks need Hollywood to tell them how to treat each other isn’t the question. I could ask why do white women NEED to be depicted as princesses in film? Why do whiite men i.e. The white race NEED to be the center of the universe in any story generated by Hollywood, because whites do.. If the paradigm were to shift and non-whites became the “center of the universe” in any film or television show generated by the media , there would be hell to pay, wouldn’t there? Don’t discount the white race’s or any other rac’s dependence on the media. OK? If Brad Pitt were dating black or non-white women in any and every film he would appear in, u whites would get out ur torches and riot. That’s a fact. Don’t question the dependence of anyone on the media cause u r just as dependent.
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@ vindicator, thanks..
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@ commentarybyvalentina..
U r absolutely correct, noone ever questions statistics done about black people. These “studies” are very pervasive and dangerous because they are not conducted or disseminated in a responsible manner. These “studies” are being done to placate white’s insatiable need to feel “superior” to Blacks and to make whites feel good about the idea that we still have not gotten our act together as a race.I think the misinformation being disseminated by the white racist media in regards to black people is very similar and as “dangerous” as the misinformation being disseminated by Germans in regards to “the jewish question” or “problem” prior to WWII. First of all “the black question” or “problem” suggests that the sloppy, amoral ways of the negro ( yes this is how they think in relation to us) cannot be addressed or rectified by negros becauseour men are too busy chasing white or hispanic women and being absentee fathers and our women are too busy seeking validation as sexual and domestic figures by white men.So it is up to the white race, those geniuses , to come up with a viable and effective solution to “The Black question” lol.. And if we examine how whites handle issues of this nature in the past, what do u think that will be..lol.
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@ Agabong, a couple of my comments are awaiting commentary as I may have used a profane word,I respect the fact that there is no profanity allowed here , so if u would go ahead and delete those comments I would be ever so appreciative. U can take the girl outta NY..lol.
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@ Lara, never mentioned WASP’s in any of my comments. I did mention whites, and jews have “elevated” their status in the last hundred years , along with Italians and Irish, to the hallowed halls of whiteness..And ur snarky commentary says it all .. Hollywood is not for us or about us and yes, our dollars should be taken and placed elsewhere. And I see u could not dispute the fact that u bow down to and are a slave to the imagery that Hollywood dictates. And u r an enemy of the black race because u don’t feel that blacks should have the same. We should go “elsewhere” to glean satisfaction and self-worth from the positive imagery bestowed upon everyone else by “Hollywood” ..Thanks for showing ur hand. And ur anger.
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All whites are competitive with blacks, make no mistake. This is a footrace that will never end. And u use the white racist media to highlight ur alleged triumphs and to ridicule our alleged failures. The media is a major trump card for u in ur never-ending quest to prove ur “better” .. u use the media to influence the masses who will never get an opportunity to set foot in America about what life is like here with all whites being depicted as “good” and all blacks being depicted as “bad”, creating self-hate and the desire to be white among those who, from a racial standpoint, could never be “white” but if they r good and sell-out and buy into the white supremacist paradigm u will “bestow” whiteness upon them through racial re-classification and they too can sit in a Katherine Heigl or Resse Witherspoon movie and get the guy and live that golden lie..lol.
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Yet another topic which seems to succeed in dividing people….
what people seem to forget and always black people–is that white is the normative in this world. Anything “white” be it romance, history, programming is seen as normal….
In a technical sense–there is nothing wrong with the term “black love”. In a liberal sense/post racial sense it is….I leave that up to individuals to decide.
Sure, maybe enslavement doesn’t have “much” to do with it, but you really have to define that–like say blacks didn’t become full natural citizens in this country until the 1970’s, just some 30 years ago….I’m just saying, physical bondage ended for black people, but “other” things were set up to hinder progress which was a direct and immediate effect for ending enslavement..
And i really fail to see the logic in saying “how does one know what happened in those days of enslavement?”…..well how does any historian know about what happened in Tudor England or Warsaw, Poland during WWII or the French occupied Japan in the 1940’s?….but no “black” person ever questions these findings…
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@ Phoebeprunelle, that is not true. White people believe that if they deem something to be so than thw whole world must be following suit. White people and their brain-washed constituents feel that white is “normative” and ur the only ones who feel that way.
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Living in America and Europe. Ur not that difficult to figure out.
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@ Lara , ur need to compete with blacks transcends sports , I think u know that. I have never had a white friend who wasn’t trying to exercise limits to what I could or couldn’t do as a “black girl”..Now it has extended to black women shouldn’t even expect any love from our own men and that a black man will prefer any white woman to a black woman. It’s pathological at this point. And sad. And it does demonstrate that our differences will never be reconciled.
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@Lara
A lot of white men have an attitude that a white woman, who is with a black man, should continue to stick with black men. I think that’s fair
Some WW who date BM exclusively might prefer it too however, I think its up to the individuals. I know more than a few WW who have mixed race children who have ended up with WM, I also know WW with white children who have ended up with BM. It seems that only these people can decide what they want and whom they choose to be with at any given time – I think that’s fair.
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I think you missed the entire sarcasm of my post.
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@Lara
Lara
I think white people would be more judgmental of white women who pursue black men if they didn’t have to worry about being called racist.
Is this a typo? Why are you saying what prevents WP from judging WW who pursue BM exclusively – who gives a flying f*ck what judgmental people think about such unions.
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What is your problem!!!!
I don’t know you and you don’t know me–this is just debating and exchanging ideas. Not something where people should get defensive and personal for no reason.
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I don’t have a problem with Ir relationships at all. Newsflash , I am NY’er and most of my friends growing up were a result of ir relationships. I have been in Ir relationships , people have a right to wake up and be with whomever they choose. I do have a problem with the politicization of Ir relationships with the temptation that “Black man, ur life will be better with a white woman, u will have a better credit score, u can move up in ur career and ur kids will be cuter and more socially acceptable” lol. And I have a problem with dumb black man and women who fall for that silliness.
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No i’m really not as i don’t tell other adults how they should or should not use English….as no one way of expressing oneself is wrong or right; why not ask me what i meant?
If you did not pick up the sarcasm then maybe you have a different sense of humor… my whole post was to in fact highlight that hordes of people in this world are running after perceived “whiteness”….
Getting back to the original questions as to whatever happened to “black love”…
I have noticed that when there is a healthy and reciprocal public declaration of black people appreciating ourselves it is seen as suspicious, by other black folks…even on this thread, but i ain’t going to name call, lol…
which is why my post read the way it did.
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@Lara
I was merely defending deepdkchocolate. If she doesn’t like it when white women are with black men, I think that is her right.
The way you stated it came across as though WP WANT to judge people in such unions but daren’t because of accusations of racism.
One thing you only briefly touch on is the ending of the restrictions on interracial marriage. This has created other options for both black men and women, but black men have benefitted much more. This would seem to be more of an issue than an institution that ended 150 years ago.
How does this ‘benefit’ BM more?
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In my women’s History course it was noted that the structure of Native and African family was different than than what the European family structure was. Women had more empowering roles in their tribe and often times worked with the men in unison to resolve issues. It really was the perfect family structure. When they were made slaves they were told that they were to follow the structures of European families. There ways of life was savage. If I remember correctly this did lead to Indian men drinking and being less if any of a husband to the wives because they did not live up to the standards. Same could be said with African men. They were told their way was wrong and thus could not be the type of man that strong African women needed and women started to learn to live one way without out them.
Personally I think Barrack and Michelle work so well because he cherishes her strength and they work together to get things done. He realizes she is strong and that strong black woman Michelle is stands beside him and supports him when is needed and he understands she is strong and is able to be lifted by her strength as well as his own. There is no I am the man so I run the household but rather we run the household.
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On another note Dee made a good point. The white family structure is not as solid as many are lead to believe. I have spoken with several white women who husbands have just walked out. No forwarding address period, so this messed up family structure that has been pushed upon us has not just failed blacks but whites as well.
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@ Phoebeprunelle. Gotcha… Respect.
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Lara, you may be right, at least about what men want, nothing wrong with strong women doing that…
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In your opinion Lara, what makes a woman strong? Particularly the characteristics that you say men don’t like.
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@Sharina:I feel it’s just the product of a society, and in this case, American society, because like I said before, divorce isn’t very common with recent African immigrants and recent Asian immigrants. I was once friends with a girl, who was white, and pretty much every couple in her family had been divorced. Her parents, aunts, uncles, and grandparents. I don’t think enough people take marriage seriously in this culture, regardless of whether they’re white, black, etc.
For example, just look at recent news. Why did Katie Holmes marry Tom Cruise when she didn’t want her child to be influenced by his religion? It was well known that Tom Cruise was a scientologist well before they got married. Couldn’t she have researched a little about his religion, before getting engaged to him? If it was such a breaking point for her, why did she follow through with the marriage, while being pregnant with Suri, when that would mean that Tom Cruise’s beliefs would also rub off on their child? Unless it was all about $$$ and exposure for her, or she thought she could “change” him. Otherwise, it doesn’t make any sense.
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@Lara: What’s a European family structure?
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Nice post abagond!
A few distinctions to make:
In Africa these statistics don’t hold up… A lot of black people get married and stay married. Divorce rates are low, waaaaay lower than in the west. Family units are stronger and closely knit.
In america, maybe these statistics are true, that black people are disintegrating in terms of structure as put forward by the post. I take everything randy says with a huge pinch of salt but he brought up a piece of statistic that shows, if accurate, the situation now is waaaay worse than before the civil rights – in terms of the strength of the family unit.
I think as mentioned above, 3 things are mainly responsible:
1. Internal racism. External racism has given way from prominence and internal racism has taken its place. The effects are far reaching.
2. Nature of modern society. Modern society does not promote building strong family units. Divorce rates are high, relationships are short lived. The extended family is pretty much non-existent.
3. Black popular culture as promoted by the mainstream. Rap music for one doesn’t help the situation. Emphasis on things that shouldn’t really matter, “Bling bling, crime, degradation of women – especially black women, emphasis on women is more as objects which promotes the notion that, just like any object you possess, you can always throw it away once it has served its purpose…. etc”
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Where do white people come into this?
1. Internal racism. Internal racism stems from how society projects black people. Society projects black people as subhuman which obviously leads to a knock on effect – internal racism. The more sophisticated the projection the more devastating the effect.
2. Nature of modern society. Modern society has been built by those whites in power.
3. Black popular culture. This is not owned by black people, this is owned by multinational companies run by you know who…
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*Disclaimer*
Stop it Wilson! You are putting “premiums” on race….
And furthermore God forbid you discuss why some black people may have issues romantically with one another on a post about black marriage and family.
Shame on you 🙂
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I think people over-exaggerate the role of women in Africa. If Africa is so matriarchal why so few women as head of state? The only one I know of the top of my head is Ellen-Sirleaf Johnson
Also, most men are attracted to femininity and most women masculinity. Strength is considered a masculine word in American culture. Idk why some black women hold on to “strength” so dearly as if it is their demo’s banner. If I was a black women I’d run from that word like hell. Nothing wrong w/ mental/emotional strength, but that word has negative connotations.
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Yet i have had white and Asian friend girls that have said the following:
I think there is a tendency to believe that this line of reasoning is something unique to black women, when in truth i have heard this from all women.
I also don’t think–or least i have not read where anyone gave more weight to continental African women’s roles. I think what wilson was trying to say–i happen to agree as i have lived in two African countries to date–that unmarried women and men have more of a social stigma tied around their necks. It is very rare for Africans to remain single or divorce–you could easily seal your fate of being ostrisized as homosexual, impotent or barren. In societies like that, that is the worst you could have people think of you–keep in my even with all of the modern day realities and urbanity of Africa–people are still very much traditional.
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@ The Cynic,
Well africa is not matriachial… One thing africa has is well defined roles. Africa is still very traditional, not as progressive as the west – for the most part. That means both genders know their role. There is little confusion. The strength of the african woman in africa comes from what she knows is hers and hers only and the african man in africa for the most part will not challenge her on these grounds. She will also refrain from challenging him, as in usurping his role… In simple terms her role is to be the foundation and his role is to build. One cannot exist without the other, a building without a foundation will crumble – might explain the high divorce rates in the west.
Also both have certain things they agree on unequivocally such as, the family is stronger together than apart, they(her and her husband) are stronger together than apart, respect is of paramount importance, they are both humans and not objects to each other etc.
Love takes on a different meaning. In the west, love is about the roller coaster ride of emotions, the heart break and the highs – never knowing but living in hope and despair, in africa love is about stability.
Strength in this sense comes from the fact that they are secure in there roles and as a unit.
My opinion based on my childhood. It should also be noted that africa currently is changing progressing with globalism which means changes to the fundamental structures of the people there will soon follow on mass scales as has slowly been happening.
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I also think that in the west since it is a different environment where black people have to live in a society that really isn’t theres, certain consequences are inevitable.
For one, I think both (black) males and females play there roles poorly as there role isn’t what it would have been had they still been in africa.
She expects him to be strong and build, not act like a baby who can’t handle the world – he is defeated by the white mans world. He is angry for failing and a part of him expects her to see this and offer consideration, cut him some slack, but she won’t. She is impatient.
Result is what we see. He sings songs degrading her, she becomes uncaring.
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@The Cynic,
I think that a number of the people who have posted here answered your question as to how slavery has had an impact on Black Americans today. It would be a very long post if I endeavored to answer your question, and I would have to reference a number of sources, books, articles, studies, experiences, ect. I have studied the history of African Americans very extensively, and I have seen so much play out in this society where the precedent was set by how White America decided to deal with Black people. Suffice it to say, that when you institute polices, plans, and so forth…based on the suppression, enslavement, and control, of another group of people, you will see a deep seated pathology take root in that culture. Now, having said that, you must remember that because Black people are survivors and a strong people, they have endured, and continue to do so. There are a number of positive examples of Black people who have contributed to the betterment of society. If you are in America, find a local news channel, and pay attention to how crime in the Black community is emphasized. The same things go on in the White community, and it is under reported, or not reported at all. Fact: I have lived in a number of different types of communities, affluent, and not so affluent, and in the communities that were mostly White, the same crimes that would make the six o’clock news in the Black community, would not be reported if they happened in the White community. The best word I can come up with is “social control” something that is more openly being discussed today, and people are looking at how our society programs us overall. I would also recommend listening to the COWS radio program for some additional insights. Another thing I do is I try to take the time to listen to conservative media outlets to disseminate the information, and better understand what is going on right now.
I have taken a look at your website, and I get a sense that the experiences you have had, and the formation of your character was outside of the U.S. There is a huge difference between Black American experience, and that of other people of African descent in other countries. I do find that there are currently some parallels between unrest, and problems with racism in Great Britian, and the U.S. Economic woes too. I have always said what is happening in Britian is a good indicator of what will happen in the U.S. I am thankful that you are able to have experienced life in a way in which you have a different perspective and are able to always emphasize the positive.
@
” RandyAccording to US Department of Labor statistics, the black out-of-wedlock birth rate in 1963 was 23.6 percent.Today it stands above 72%.”
There has been an increase in the white out-of-wedlock birth rate too. I once had a discussion with an older white gentleman who had researched the out-of-wedlock birth rate between Black women and White women during the 1930’s to 1950’s. He found that White women were having out-of-wedlock pregnancies at a much higher rate than Black women. The difference was that they were “going away” to give birth to their children and put them up for adoption, or having illegal abortions. Randy to this day I wish I had gotten his name. I did ask him a few questions about his research, and if it would be archived at the university he attended. Silly me for not writing it down.
@ Lara
I find it interesting that you think that White women should also date Asian men if they choose to. I have come across a number of blogs and so forth, in which a lot of White Supramist will attempt to cozy up to Asians while putting Black people down. I wonder about this, because I feel that basically there is a deep seated fear among numerous Whites these days of genetic anniliation, and I kind of think that by intermarrying with Asians they see that somehow the white race will be preserved? Just wondering what your thoughts are since you broached the subject.
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Just saw phoebe’s comment above mine,
Yeah, I agree.. Traditional is the word. Single, divorce and homosexual is more modern and progressive at least in terms of social acceptance.
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@Wilson,
I think you made good points when you said that things would be different if blacks had been allowed to stay in Africa and not disperse against there will.
Alas, you are also right when you said globalization is slowly inching up on contintental Africans…there was this Kenyan magazine that my friend brought over once with the cover story of a make-over of a single mom and her boy. Lol…ten years ago you would have never seen this in Kenya/Tanzania.
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@ Lara
You were banned back in January:
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So, it is Lara!
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@ Lara:
1. I rarely unban people.
2. You were not staying on topic even in this thread. This thread is about black love but you wanted to make it about interracial relationships.
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@anonymous
I don’t have a website and I was born and raised in the US
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@The Cynic
Why do you associate strength with masculinity? Strength of resolve, character, mental faculty, etc are unisex. Disassociating “Black” with strength would make more sense. Down playing a positive quality such as strength just to have ready access to penis or affection is ridiculous.
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Well; if I had to hazard a guess why are black couples having more problems staying together than they used to.
It basically comes down to the feminist movement, not bad talking it, not against….just saying traditionally women were dependent on men, getting a divorce was a lot riskier thing back then, economically, socially etc….
Feminist movement comes around, women start being capable of being dependent on a financial level and they don’t have to stay with men who abuse them or hopefully get with a man just to manage to support themselves on any level.
As for abuse, rape etc…..I don’t know about for black people but rape in general has dropped…alot, its about ten times lower than it was just back in the 1980’s.
Crime, murder, violent acts in general, all lower than they used to be.
Now maybe these have all risen in the black communities opposite to the nation at large.
On the flip side; the white marriage/divorce rate/never been married rate are all increasing as well.
I suppose the black power movement might be part of it as well, women lib etc….the women don’t need men, and the ultimate power fantasy for just about any man regardless of race, is to have as many women as possible at your beck and call.
Fermenting a desire for power and pride is probably going to have a trickle down effect.
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Inregards to slavery; the Irish were enslaved by the british, can’t remember which specific decade but there was one time or the course of a decade back in the day, that the English reduced the Irish population by half due to violence and slavery.
Alot of irish women were actually used to breed with black men to make more slaves….
And I’m not talking arab trader argument either; this is pure white on white slavery.
Sure there were rules but they were often sent to places where that didn’t matter, its one of the reason why people from jamaica etc….often have Irish in them.
That and even when they were supposed to be released after 7 or 9 years, they either didn’t bother or more often actually died before 3 yrs passed.
And they were demonized both in the US and in England, heck in England as late as the 1970’s they were still depicting Irish people as gorillas or with simian features.
Of course; England still had that blackface show into the 1970’s so that tells you abit about England.
Being slaves; demonized, brutal poverty, alchoholic issues etc….
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^I don’t know if black women could be “true” feminist though…that movement was not for or about us.
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I love that photo of Barack and Michelle. Beautiful, intelligent, powerful and caring. They are great human beings and inspirational each in their own right. You can tell they respect and admire each other greatly.
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@ Dee
When we think about this culture in general it is instant gratification for most. If it is not working out the way they want then they just give up. They forget the value of working on the relationship. When my husband and I first got married, I always wanted to just leave. I was tired of being a wife and I always called for divorce when things were not the way I wanted them to be.
My husband being 5 years old and raised completely old school did not work like that. He continued to work on our marriage until I grew up and realized that marriage is not without struggle. You have to work hard for it if you want it to last. That and our family structure really is us working in unison together. There is no “I am man hear me roar.” LOL.
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Why couldn’t Black Women be true feminists?
All you have to believe is women have the capacity to achieve and do things/deserve equal rights as men.
And I don’t honestly know but if I had to guess, thats what most black women believe about themselves, they deserve equal rights to black men or any other kind of man and that they can achieve things in live.
Now the feminist movement inregards to the black population was hampered by its own innate racism and pseudo-sisterhood but the idea still got around.
And while women of color choose to define themselves as humanist, equalitarians etc….the idea got started in Feminism.
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@ Dee
“@Lara: What’s a European family structure?”—That was something I used in stead of say white family structure.
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@ Wilson
I agree. You really hit the nail on the head.
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@phoebeprunelle…yes, that is what I said. “Love is love”. What is the issue here? I’m not sure why you took my words out of context. There is no suspicion behind what I said. It is a very simple statement.
I don’t believe anyone has said that Black men and women can’t love one another.
But when I said “love is love” all I meant is that love isn’t something that should have restrictive labels applied to it. I’m not against the concept of Black love, but I find the label somewhat unnecessary. Do other races refer to “white love” or “Asian love”? No. Hence, the term “black love” makes healthy relationships between Black people seem like an anomaly…which it isn’t, despite a lot of the dysfunction that does exist.
You mentioned that whiteness is often viewed as the norm, which I definitely agree with. So with that being said, terms like “black love” seem to marginalize Black people even further. If we can see Black couples happy together, that should be viewed as the norm rather than some rare exception that requires a label. Just my two cents, for what it’s worth.
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@WarrenAZ
Why do you associate strength with masculinity?
I said American culture associates strength with masculinity. I’m smart enough to know that strength isn’t always physical (I thought I made this clear when I mentioned mental/emotional strength), however, I’m aware of the connotations the word has.
The “strong black woman” narrative is always going to spark images of an overbearing dominant woman, which most men of any race find unattractive.
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Then your guess would be wrong.
It is really plausible when people push feminism as something that was in the interest of black women…
Working outside of the home, helping her man with providing for their extended families and children is something black women have been doing for thousands of years….
Last week there was a debate on national t.v. about the white feminist’s problem of climbing the corporate ladder and juggling family life–this discussion that they have been having for the past 30 yrs is beating a dead horse, when black women have had no other option but to help her family to survive…
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They don’t have to because by default it is the norm
But if you read my other post i also said this:
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^oop v-4 i meant
it is really questionable when people push feminism as in the interest of black women…
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I also think people are too preoccupied with the term “black love” on this post and they immediately get defensive when they see it.
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@ The Cynic
Sorry about that! I was sure that I had linked from one of your prior comments to a blog that belonged to you. I could tell by the usage of english (some words spelled differently) that the person was British. Also one of the post was directly related to events in the U.K. Shoulda know better.
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[…] The following is mostly based on “Relationship Wrecks”, chapter two of Tom Burrell’s “Brainwashed” (2010): Why does black love in America seem to fail so much? Can any… […]
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[…] on abagond.wordpress.com Rate this:Share this:TwitterFacebookPinterestTumblrMoreStumbleUponLinkedInRedditDiggEmailPrintLike […]
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I am always amused by bitchists, and their bitchism, especially the type of Bitchism that seems to be evident in the author of this particular book. I am glad Abagond took the time out to expose this guy and his bitchassedness in all its glory. What is with these guys? It’s like the only history they know about black people is Slavery, the Tuskegee Airmen, and Nowadays. If they put as much energy into trying to make their self-pity seem like self-esteem, they would be able realize that they do not need “Proppa Propaganda.” Real history is enough. Real history like The Negro family in Slavery, the Tulsa Riots (a black middle class settlement) and even a movie (based on real life) like Rosewood, with its extended family, complete with a black man (GASP), defending his family!
Indeed, most sources show that the black extended family managed to exist in some form during slavery, and remained largely intact post-slavery, up until the late 1960s.
They even got slavery wrong. Bitchasses. The main reason black men would get caught and sent back was because they hung around the slave plantation when they ran away, or (In Jamaica at least),during the Christmas time when slaves got the day of to celebrate, the black man would run to the plantation where his first love was. Hell. simply digging around shows that black people during the early part of the last century had lower divorce rates than whites.
(Insert source link)
It would seem that the “demise of Black Love” (late ’60s, around the time of te Moynihan Report) occured during a time that saw first world countries implement
– massive deindustrialisation of major American cities (containerization and urban policies)
– the loosening of immigration policies, allowing cheap labour to compete with local labour (France with Magrebian, America with Hispanics, Britain with her formeer colonies)
– the IndoChina conflict (with the attendant military draft)
– massive importation of powerful narcotics into poor areas (like black ghettoes)
– a property crash during the early ’70s
– the reorganization of cities according to the desires of Robert Moses and his discciples, and no one elses, not even the people who lived there
– neo-liberal policies that shifted state services away from areas with a majority of poor people , to richer areas (like moving teh bulk of fire services away from the Bronx and Brooklyn to Manhattan)
– the creation of a legal-industrial complex that arrests and incarcerates black males at a much higher per capita level than their counterparts
Even just two of the above would be enough to cause the level of social breakdown seen in poor black American communities today, never mind the white communities that are have also experienced similar issues (the Rust Belt , for example)
It is good that Abagond exposes these bitch niggas, not just so that we may mock them and pour scorn on their writing (seriously, its like they think that the sum total of black history is learnt by watching “Roots”), but also that we may counter their arguments and propose solutions of our own, whether it be on the individual level (exercise, schooling, education, meeting other likeminded individuals), community (guiding little niggas, community fsrming, taking advantage of fundraising loopholes to create PACs) or on a larger scale (media manipulation a la Shirley Sherrod, setting up thinktanks to influence instituations).
But that’s hard work, isn’t it? Easier to make YouTube videos about Willie Lynch. Easier to pity yourself under the guise of venting (Black Men Vent and Black Women’s Empowerment) and easier to live in past where only enslavement, genocide, failure (a few black inventors) and injustice exist.
It is least we could do honour our ancestors, who dealt with greater hardships than we, yet still managed to survive, and preserve their families so that we could make it here. Wouln’t you agree?
Oh, and one more thing. Where the hell do you all get off about African-Americans not challenging statistcs? Doesn’t anyone remember:
– Satoshi Kanazawa and his box-plot bullshit
– that whole Justice Policy Institute “more black men in than in college crap”
– the CDCs black woman herpes statistics
– Barack Obama and Bill Cosby stating that black men are rresponsible for out of wedlock marriage (I didn’t know that black men reproduced asexually), and ignoring cohabition, stepfathers and visiting arrangements.
People, have some fucking pride. Not everything is an excuse to bitch, moan and pity yourself about. Take a stand and dosomething, or tak a bow and leave.
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I think that many of the reasons stated on here by various people , are contributing factors to the state of relationships in the black community today. They all kind of linc together in a kind o way to create the dynamic of today.
I dont know about relationship statistics about 1963 in the black communities, but, I remember back then, that black men , in relationships with women on welfare, had to not be around if the authorities came around.
It just seems if you add all these factors up, including, slavery up to contemporary ideas that women can raise children on their own (whether right or wrong, I dont really have an opinion on how other people should raise thier kids, but, I needed help from my wife to do this) , that will define the dynamic of today of “black love”
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@dee. Even though Abagond’s post has nothing to do with Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes.I think your comment about her reason for wanting a divorce,comes the closest to what I think is the real reason for her actions,than anything that I’ve read or heard on their situation.Tom Cruise didn’t hide the fact that he is a scienetologist,and he’s been one since the 80’s.I don’t believe Katie’s excuse for wanting a divorce.What you are alluding to sounds more closer to the truth.
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@wilson: I don’t know about #1, since I think that’s someone’s personal take (I really doubt most Africans feel that way.. Africans tend to be proud of their culture. I personally have never been given that impression by society), but #2 and #3 aren’t relevant for most Africans. You’re right, Africans generally place more importance on the extended family. I can say this from experience. Close family friends are even treated like family, and I refer to them as aunts, uncles, and cousins, even if we aren’t blood related. Some African expatriates ignore their family “back home” but a lot don’t, like my parents. Instead of spending all their money on things for our immediate family, on vacations and etc, my parents give generously to my extended family, regardless of whether it’s for people here in America, or in Africa.
@The Cynic: I don’t know where people are getting that from, lol. Africa is still pretty patriarchal. More men are educated than women, so generally the men will go work and the woman will do housework and maybe farm work, too. And polygamy still exists in some rural parts. I’m no expert, but I’m just speaking about what I know from what I’ve seen and what I’ve been told
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@ dee
I don’t think the level of education really matters. Women can still maintain and men go out to work, but it is how they handle the roles that really count. They are building together and often times in western civilization that is not the case. The spouses usually have two different goals. In your example of Katie and Tom. I believe that Katie had a different idea of what that marriage would bring. As with Tom so did he, but neither of their ideas were in tune with the other.
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@ dee,
I am slightly confused, What I named (1,2,3) that you refer to is as follows,
1. Internal racism
2. Nature of modern society
3. Black popular culture..
Are we talking about the same thing?
Yes internal racism is a personal thing, a personal battle down to the individual affected by it. It does however have far reaching consequences.
Nature of modern society affects EVERYONE who has to make a living WITHIN modern society. That includes black people.
Black popular culture affects black people and africans that buy into it.
I am unsure if this is what you were referring to. The above pertains to the demise of black love as put forward by abagond – in my opinion.
The distinction that I thought was important was that the book’s use of “black” should not be taken to mean ALL black people as context is important.. I think it refers to american/western blacks.
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That Barack and Michelle Obama picture is perfect.
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@ dee,
Anyways, despite the confusion I think you have very good points.
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@ wilson
Your two points were the best stated I have seen. Very well said. Black women get the rep for embarrassing their men in public and on TV are always shown doing just that. I really think that needs to stop and that stereotype needs to be dealt the death blow. None of the women in my family have ever acted like that especially not my mother nor grandmothers. They were concerned with always showing the best light in front of me even when I knew they had been arguing. I really think the black community has lost it’s collect sense of dignity. In the 60’s and 70’s we always felt we represented our entire race everywhere we went. Now it’s screw it anything goes. I think the black man has tired of fighting this war for dignity thus the higher rates of everything negative. Yes the family unit was more intact in the fifties but civil rights aren’t to blame for the family being destroyed. Black family in the fifties although buffoonish on TV were always shown as family men because this country knew to do so other wise would also affect white families. When black power rose up it energized us for a while until the black power movement was feared and stamped out by the government. The destruction of hope brought the drug culture and the reason to care about anything. To top things black people are more negatively protrayed in the media now than before causing us to believe the way slaves believed. We can’t stand to see any other black people have anything better than us. Black people are the second worst enemy of ourselves. We know who the first is.
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There is no “I am man hear me roar.” LOL.
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@ Sharina,
I am going to dissent on this point! =) XD =) 😛
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@ Mamu1977,
It would take a sad and cold heart to deny the beauty of the Obamas in that photo. *cough* teabaggers *wheeze* I real fan of both though so i am guess a bit biased. Thanks for posting the photo abagond.
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http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/freedom/1609-1865/essays/aafamilies.htm
@bulanik
Now you’re getting somewhere. What’s the next step?
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@ Abagond
Great post. Slavery destroyed our self worth and thusly our worth in each other. Segregation and re-education of our people is the only way to reestablish the unity and strength of our people.
And don’t let the media fool you. Most blacks date, marry and have children with other blacks.
And one more thing…this discussion should be for blacks only. Including whites in our struggle to heal is counter productive.
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@ JT
I was referring to that in the sense of my family structure. We do not function that way at all. We work together because as you all know…There is no “I” in Team., so you can’t disagree with how my family is when you have no idea how we work.
As far as if you choose to disagree in the sense of how other people work or the majority work, then so be it.
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It would be nice …really nice….. if every black child ( no matter genetic make up) could look in the mirror and like ….and genuinely LOVE what they see. Unfortunately, so many of them don’t..rich/middleclass/poor..
.
the mirror…that’s where it starts…. the past is not just the past for us..the past still echoes into the present
those echoes are like shadows……let’s stop shadow boxing and blaming
If the media is hurtful….turn off the TV….talk instead
If the music is hurtful….turn off the radio….listen to uplfiting digital uploads better yet listen to each other
If the food is hurtful….ditch Mickey D’s and grow a garden
If the messages are hurtful …scramble them….and put the truth out there
If we don’t see beautiful representations of us…..take more pictures, draw, paint for goodness sake and put it out there!
What the hell are we waiting for? More studies? More of those unlike us to tell us what we are like?
THEY DON’T KNOW US. Thus they can’t appreciate us. WE DON’T KNOW US EITHER….That is the true tragedy.We have contributed to western civilization in many, many ways.WE don’t know our beauty and strength because we don’t know our history, instead we let them give lackluster narritives of who we are and what we are capble of.
White supremacy has shown itself in many forms….STOP DRINKING THIS KOOL AID. See it for what it is ….poison to all people.It should be dismantled …bit by bit
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if you look at statistics from about 1900 to 1945 the height of jim crow,when welfare starts you see black children born into two parent married families 95% of the time, black male employment higher than white male employment [fdr gave legal rights to unions to counter blacks winning the jobs race] and you will find all sorts of evidence that blacks did sooo much better before the democrats[ remember the bought them with welfare. and make work affirmative action jobs,wake up brothers and sisters get off the plantation!
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@ Truthbetold,
i respect your suggestion that white posters should be excluded from this thread. I act accordingly and i think other whites should too.
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Bulanik,
There is a study that found that black men who were divorced/separated from the woman they had kids with were actually more likely than men of other ethnicities to stay active in their kids lives.
I am going to broach this–probably will receive flack for it–but anyways…
I think education is a huge factor here…of U.S. teachers, only 20% are of color and out of that 20% only around 4% are black…and only 1% are black men..numerous studies have been done that conclude that black boys and girls learn better when being taught by teachers with similar backgrounds including class, gender and ethnicity… yet in major urban areas, black kids account for 70% or more of the public schools populations…
Then there is the element of schools being middle class institutions assuming that all the students it serves are from middle class environments….when these kids–mostly black boys but black girls are catching up–can’t sit still (as it is only natural for kids to stay moving), come to school improperly nourished and can’t focus,they diagnose the kid with some learning disability….and the more likely a kids is placed on IEP’s the more likely they are to not finish school or end up in prison later on down the line…
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Abagond, my last comment is in limbo again 🙂
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@Phoebeprunelle
But if Black Women really didn’t think they could achieve and do things in life, that they are deserving of equal values and rights….than why are they going to college at such high numbers and getting good jobs?
If they really believed they weren’t smart enough to achieve in society or get an education it wouldn’t seem to make sense for them to even attempt to get a higher education in the first place. They would just get married to a man and have his children while staying in the kitchen like a good wife should.
@Diaryofanegress
The problem is; as discussed earlier that argument doesn’t hold weight when you go back to not only the actual times of slavery but other times of american history when racism was even more brutal and black people were looked at and viewed with contempt on an epic level.
If the theory about slavery and low self-esteem were true it would have been even more so back then.
If anything the opposite has happened, the more economic stable they become, the more black people have reasons to feel pride and success….the less stable and less often black couples are staying together.
Life seems to be working to the oppossite of the low self-esteem theory.
@Michael
The problem with the welfare angle goes down to the aspect that most african-americans are economically okay, close to 80% are middle class.
And if what was it 72% of African-American children are raised in out of wedlock or broken homes that still leaves the question about the other 52% that doesn’t follow under the welfare scenario.
The media’s kind of 50/50 on this, on one hand you have crime shows etc….on the other hand, you have African-American news anchors of one gender or another, there are a lot of black people involved in politics, shows that have positive black people in them for token characters, police chiefs, Presidents etc…..
There are far more positive black role models and images in the news media than ever before.
Or even the internet with sites like this or others that deal more with the African-American point of view.
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But if Black Women really didn’t think they could achieve and do things in life, that they are deserving of equal values and rights….than why are they going to college at such high numbers and getting good jobs?
If they really believed they weren’t smart enough to achieve in society or get an education it wouldn’t seem to make sense for them to even attempt to get a higher education in the first place. They would just get married to a man and have his children while staying in the kitchen like a good wife should
You are saying these things, i’m not…
I think you are projecting ww’s realities onto black women with that feminism stuff…
Look, i’m working so i’ll make this short…the first and second waves of feminism was not about bw…it was a fight between ww and wm…their issues, their problems….
Civil Rights was much more beneficial to the livelihoods of all black people. Haven’t you heard of HBCU’s? They were established after the Civil War ended so the bulk of black educated men and women attended these institutions until integration allowed for HWCU to open their doors to blacks…my point, black women would have been and are just fine without feminism…
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Your right; doesn’t mean black women weren’t able to take any thing positive from it or got secondary lesser benefits than white women got.
Maybe I’m wrong here but aren’t black women at a historical all time high for attending college, getting degree’s etc….?
If so; I’m not sure it can be said that feminism didn’t have anything to do with that.
And ultimately its still an indication of feminism in and of itself, whether its a white lead or instigated one or not.
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end of black love is because of the BLACK man / REAL pretty african LOL not fake somali troll
is banned for using sock puppets.
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Some people blame welfare for oow births and single mother households in the black community, however, 70% of black woman and black families are not and hv never been on welfare
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@ The Cynic
I agree with you. I personally do not believe it has to do with welfare. From most of the black relationships I have watched failed. IT was always the result of the black man cheating with another woman. He did not want one but several. I witnessed one relationship personally fail because the guy did not want to work (lazy) had everyone paying for him to be in college but him. Girlfriend was paying for them to go out (was in college and working her but off). She finally wised up and now he is dating a white girl.
I mean in my area the black guys that go for white girls always go for the one with some type of black feature about them or shall I say stereotypical feature.
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phoebeprunelle
“black women would have been and are just fine without feminism”
What affected white women in American also affected black women. Going to college was a huge achievement back then, but unfortunately, in the real world, that college degree could not buy them a life with no restrictions.
Many older women I’ve spoken to told me back in the 1960’s and 70’s, they could not buy furniture on credit or open a bank account without their husbands or fathers consent.
in certain states, a married womans name could not appear on property deeds next to her husbands or single women could not own property (had to have male name on it)…and of course, women could not get a mortgage from a bank.
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@ Linda and Bulanik…I don’t want to speak for phoebeprunelle, but I think she was making a similar point to what I made.
The feminist movement has helped society in many ways, I won’t deny that. But at the same time, feminism was primarily created with white women in mind, not women of color. This is why Sojourner Truth demanded that her voice be heard in “Ain’t I A Woman”.
One main criticism that many Black women have of feminism is that it isn’t inclusive enough…many white feminists tend to explore the issue of sexism only, without taking into account the “double jeopardy” of being Black AND female. Some white feminists expect Black women to put their race aside and focus on gender, which can be problematic because the two are closely linked.
Whereas civil rights spoke more to the issues affecting Black people and Black women. The third wave of feminism is more understanding than the previous generations, but there is still much to work through.
So I don’t think she is against feminism itself in terms of equality for women, but she is addressing it from a Black woman’s perspective. As women of color, we often have a lot of hurdles to jump over. Civil rights took care of that somewhat and feminism helped us a bit, too.
Sorry if my thoughts are incoherent or if I’m being presumptuous. Just thinking out loud.
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@ phoebeprunelle…I definitely agree that a lot of Black women are doing great things.
I believe that for some women, it’s also because they had independence instilled in them from an early age. They were taught to be self-sufficient and to not depend on anyone.
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@Cinnamondiva,
that is exactly what i am saying…
Black women get marginalized from modern feminism quite often.
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I should also note; non white Hispanic women and Asian women get sidelined as well…basically the brown women; yet we go around tooting our horns for feminism…
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“Cinnamondiva
One main criticism that many Black women have of feminism is that it isn’t inclusive enough…many white feminists tend to explore the issue of sexism only, without taking into account the “double jeopardy” of being Black AND female.”
I won’t pretend that I know much about the feminist movement in this country because I don’t.
As an immigrant, I rarely expect empathy or sympathy from Americans about issues facing the immigrant community but I do wish for understanding.
The only question I have is ‘why should the white women have been concerned with the racial aspect of black women’s lives’?
If black women were being told by the bank that they couldn’t open an account because they are black, that issue is a racial issue that needs to be taken up by the black community (male and female), and understood by white women as a seperate issue that black American women had to face.
If a black woman is told she can’t open an account because she is female and needs a males approval, that is an issue that is affecting her because of her gender. That issue affects all women and the focus of the movement should be about issues that face all women.
I do hear what you are saying but I don’t think white women should have had the onus to take up the racial issues of black women if that was something that would detract from their message of equality for all women based on gender.
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@ Linda what effected black women and white women in america were two completely separate things. Make no mistake. Whoopi read Elizabeth’s ass on national television for uttering silly statements like this. White women of a certain class could transcend their circumstances quite easily, for black women race and class were bound together very tightly. Many Black women during reconstruction were educated but their race inhibited them from gaining employment outside of being domestics or schoolteachers.White women could marry well and be subservient to their husbands and when there husbands were working or out being men, support feminism. Many Black women did not have this option because the only jobs available to Black men was working as a Pullman porters or elevator operators or in some domestic capacity for whites.That is if a Black man could find work. If a Black family wanted or needed welfare the Black man could not be living in the home of his family, that means the Black man had to take all his clothing and belongings out of the home where he was supposed to be The King and go hide somewhere.Women were effectively FORCED to become the heads of their households by the whhite racist system that is America. My mother who was born in 1937 has told me that 99% of the black men she knew growing up were alcoholics because of the crushing hopelessness of a Black man’s life in America having their manhood stepped on eaxh and every day.The famous writer Zora Neale Hurston a published writer and quite prolific in her day, at the end of her life was working as a domestic. I don’t know what ur background is but u seem to know very little of the African-American experience.
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@Sharina: I get what you’re saying, but to say Africa is very matriarchal is quite a stretch.
@wilson: yes, I was responding to those points. You said the nature of modern society doesn’t promote building strong family units, and I was saying that this wasn’t the case with many Africans and recent African immigrants, which together constitute as the majority of black people in the world. I’ve seen some rare exceptions, but this is what I’ve personally seen, and not just in my own family. It’s generally easier for younger people to adapt to American culture, as they basically grew up with it, but the older ones are more likely to stick to the values they were taught in Africa, rather than just suddenly acting the “American” way. This isn’t true for everyone, but it’s the trend I’ve seen. and people ARE in control of their culture, as culture is the way you decide to live your life, and what values you decide to be important to you.
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@ Dee
No no no. I was not saying it is matriarchal.
I was speaking in past tense. In tribal times there were some African tribes that were matrilocal very similar to native tribes in the Americas. This made the importance of women more valuable and important. Lineage in this case was traced through the woman, you moved into the woman’s tribe and family etc. Now with white or European structure it is the opposite. You become part of the mans family etc. This places the importance on the husband and so forth.
I personally can’t speak for today, so sorry for the confusion.
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Why would Africa being “matriarchal” be a stretch? The Igbo tribe is a matriarchal tribe to this day and they practice polyandry which is one woman being married to several men.The San people is another example of a matriarchal tribe in Africa. I mean there are many matriarchal tribes in Africa and before the rise of patriarchy there was matriarchy..
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@ deepkdchocolate
Thank you very much for that information. I really had no idea that existed.
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Why would Africa being “matriarchal” be a stretch?
The richest people in the continent and the majority of politicians are men.
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I might of went a bit off topic w/ the whole Africa and matriarchy thing. My bad. It would of made a good post…
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“I don’t know what ur background is but u seem to know very little of the African-American experience.”
Wow, deepdkchocolate, you got me all figured out by my few sentences, huh?
If you’re going to do a comparison of white vs black American womens lives, then why don’t you do it equally, such as compare working class white women (the poor ones) to the working class black women you just posted as an example.
and since whites have always been the majority welfare recipients, did the white men have to leave too or did they get to stay home?
Not all black people were poor back then. There was a black middle-class back then, and it was mostly from this class that the black women who went to University came from, and they sure did make it a practice not to marry down–opportunity to marry within or above class was pushed by all social-climbing families.
Sorry, your examples still don’t tell me why white women should give a sh’t about black womens issues pertaining to race. (not to say they shouldn’t, support BW, voices against injustice should be welcome from all corners)
Like I said, I certainly wouldn’t expect a white women to feel my pain or take up my cause based on race, I expect her to understand what I’m going through as a woman.
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@Linda
I think what deepkchocolate is saying is that due to the nature of their problems, until the race problem was more taken care of the gender problem would also be insurmountable.
So if white women weren’t concerned about the racial angle but only the gender angle that means none of the women were PoC were going to be effectively served.
So white women weren’t really concerned about helping out all women but ultimately were only concerned about helping white women if they were unable too see or deal with the race problem.
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@ Linda, I think I did make the comparison, with even poor white women having the possibility of marrying a fire-fighter , a police officer or some other type of working -class stiff and striving for middle-class status, it may have taken some time but at least it was attainable. For many Black women , being in a “marriage” that benefitted her through social status and a modicum of financial security was damned near in impossibilty because of the rampant racism socially exercised against Black men.I could care less if white women , give a s*** about the black woman’s plight, u never did anyway..Feminism was used by white women to drive an even deeper wedge between Black men and Black Women by telling Black women that, because of the racial and societal constraints being levied against Black men , Black women didn’t need them anyway.. And certainly there were Middle and Upper-Middle class communities in America that existed separately from white society , Zora Neale Hurston chronicled these communities frequently in her novels and they were singled ot for destruction by the white american government and greater white society at large who were daned if the black race would succeed , this was evidenced in communities like Tulsa, Oklahoma, which was a Black community where the dolllar circulated 52 times within the community before it left the community . Nowadays a dollar circulates within a “black community” twice before exiting. Because the people of Tulsa were separate and successful there community was air-bombed by the U.S.Military .The only time The U.S. Military bombed on native american soil.Thank U.
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@ V-4, ur correct, thanks. I think white women , for the most part, couldn’t see the problems that Black women faced and cause much more damage to the black race. But then again many of those early american privilleged White women who spear-headed “feminism” had a very clear agenda against Black Women.. Damaging “Ideas” usually trickle down from “The Elite”, and these white women were interested in eugenics specifically targetting the black race, i.e. Black Women..The ol’ “You don’t need men”,”Why, Black Woman are you having so many kids if u cannot take care of them?”,”Ever think about having an abortion, since ur husband is on drugs, beats you or is in prison” these ideas were insinuated into Black Women’s consciousness by White Women coming to The Black Woman as her “Sister in the struggle”.
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Linda:
Like I said, I certainly wouldn’t expect a white women to feel my pain or take up my cause based on race, I expect her to understand what I’m going through as a woman.
If the white woman cannot understand the life and trials of a Black woman in the americas our history as slaves , concubines to white men our experiences as Chattel to the white power structure, than she certainly cannot even begin to understand what it is to be a “Woman”..And there can be no connection. Certainly white women had very few options themselves and in many respects they were prisoners of a society that dictated that women’s role was looking pretty wearing crinolines and having the white man’s pure race children For many of the poorer white women u could marry and be a lower-classed white man’s doormat, being abused and working the land, or live life as a prostitute, many white women forswore all these things and owned businesses but how even as abject as a white woman’s life could possibly get it was no comparison to the life of a Black Woman here in the americas. Any Black Woman could be walking down the street and be leapt upon by a white man and have her virtue stolen. I read an abolitionist’s account of a 13 year old Black girl who was stalked and raped in the street by a white male and everyone in this town was aware he was the culprit but nothing was done about it, if she became pregnant, what sort of shame woyld that heap upon her psyche? Especially if she is just starting to have romantic feelings for boys her own age , how would an event like this derail her life? So the Black Woman’s experience in The Americas is much deeper and damned near infathomable, than anyone could possibly imagine and then to have white liberal women assigning blame for these “events” of rape and abuse by assigning blame to “Black female pulchritude”.. I mean it’s outrageous and still going on today.
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@Sharina. I think dee was referring to the fact that Katie’s statement about her reason for wanting a divorce doesn’t add up.Katie said she’s worried about their daughter Suri being put into sciencetology by Tom.One of the reasons that her statement seem odd,has to do with the fact that everyone including Katie knew that Tom Cruise is a sciencetoligist and during the time that Katie and Tom started dating,Tom was more vocal about his religion it was clear that he took his religion very seriously.Personally I don’t agree with his religion,but never the less that’s what Tom believes and takes it seriously.I’m a born again Christian and I take my relationship with Jesus Christ extremely serious.Since i’m a practicing Christian,it would be obvious if I ever have a child I’m going to raise he or she a Christian.Bringing me back to the point that if Tom Cruise,a person that the world knows take his religion(sciencetology)serious.It is expected that he would want to raise their daughter as a sciencetologist.Therefore,Katie’s excuse for divorcing Tom and wanting full custody of Suri,because she’s afraid Tom will bring her into his religion is suspect think they’ve been married for about 5 years,and Suri is 5.Yet now she’s worried about his religion.If his religion was a real problem for her,she shouldn’t of dated him,gotten pregnant by him and then married him.It’s one thing if Tom became a sciencetologist not that long before she announced she wants a divorce and full custody of their daughter,due to her fear of Suri being put into his religion.If that was the case then her reason might make some sense.But that’s not the case,like I mentioned before Tom Cruise has been a scienctologist since the 80’s and during the time Tom and Katie started dating,back in 2005,everyone knew how much he took his religion seriously.Her reason for wanting a divorce and full custody doesn’t make sense.But, what Dee said on this issue does seem to make more sense.
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@ JW
Thank you for that information. I thought dee was talking about the discussion on Africa and African women.
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@SW6.Your right,that is a huge flaw.But the way people and media seem to be back on the I hate Tom Cruise band wagon.What you mentioned probably won’t be a issue.I won’t be shocked if they give Katie full custody of Suri.
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@Sharina. I was just explaining the Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes topic,that Dee brought up.So,I think you might be right.In Dee’s post i think the topic of Africa and African women was mentioned.But when the example of Tom&katie was mentioned,is when I decided to respond.
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“deepdkchocolate
I think white women , for the most part, couldn’t see the problems that Black women faced and cause much more damage to the black race. But then again many of those early american privilleged White women who spear-headed “feminism” had a very clear agenda against Black Women”
Linda says,
That’s my point. Being that white women belonged to a group that is oppressing non-whites, there never should have been an expectation from them. Black women faced 2 strikes and white women had only 1 to deal with.
It’s funny how Marcus Garvey is so beloved by pan-Africanist black Americans but his message and methodology was never truly understood and it was used against him in the end.
Here is a man who was educated in Britian, firmly believed in black Unity and used the white American groups (like the KKK) to fund-raise to achieve his goals because his agenda somewhat aligned with their agenda.
He wasn’t concerned that they hated black people (most of white society did anyway), he was concerned about using any means necessary for the greater good to be achieved, to accomplish the Goal.
The goal of black women should have been to use the white women in the feminist movement to get black womens goals achieved as far as gender issues are concerned, if racial issues could be addressed too, wonderful, but oppression as far as Race and gender are concerned, are 2 seperate issues.
Asking white women to empathize with black womens history and plight as black women is ridiculous–it was in their (white womens) best interest to make sure non-white women did not rise beyond their station in life–someone had to take care of their children (I’m making fun) but there was solidarity to be found as women who suffered under male domination at home and in society.
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deepdkchocolate
I do hear what you are trying to say, that in America black women had to play dual roles in society because the black man was being oppressed and could not take the family from point A to point B. You see being black and being a woman as being interwined and not interchangeable.
My point is that the ‘gender’ issues should be treated as seperate because if you remove race, you’re still left with being discriminated against because of gender, that issue can stand on it’s own without throwing anything else into the pot.
Look at how black women today are portrayed in hip-hop videos, there is no race issue on the part of the black artists, but genderwise, black women are being sexually-exploited.
When I speak to my black male friends about it, their response is, in a nutshell: since white women have embraced their ‘hoe’-ishness, therefore, black women are trying to do the same’ but the white women still manage to retain the ‘respect’ factor in black mens eyes that black women don’t receive.
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U cannot address Black women’s issues as women without addressing how race has impacted Black Women.Where Black women live, where black women shop the food that is available to them, their educational resources, healthcare Jobs educatin healthcare and resources for their children, their entire lives are impacted by race.And there is no race issue on the part of black artists in the music industry, really this is a separate thread altogether but racism and images of how blacks are portrayed in music videos are controlled by enemies of the black race who seek to denigrate black women and men through “black” music and the imagery in black music videos. Ur black male friends are ignorant and are very much victims of the self-same imagery. Black people have 0 control in Hollywood, in the music industry in politics etc. Blacks answer to others in these arenas and must be prepared to sell out their race to achieve “fame and fortune”.
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Linda:The goal of black women should have been to use the white women in the feminist movement to get black womens goals achieved as far as gender issues are concerned, if racial issues could be addressed too, wonderful, but oppression as far as Race and gender are concerned, are 2 seperate issues.
First of all it is pretty unrealistic to have an expectation for Black women to be that organised, though there were some educated black women most could not even read, didn’t have the resources to build a network and were being scattered hither and thither due to oppressionand lack of opportunities. In the south The KKK was rampant, Black women were trying to keep their families intact and their children alive during the brutal post-slavery landscape.Most Black women had no rights, very limited access to any resources that any american might have and the basic tenets of The U.S. Constitution did not apply to or benefit Black People, so to expect Black women to be able to organize to such an extent is absolutely preposterous.. Marcus Garvey was an anomaly. If America was the matrix Marcus Garvey would’ve been Neo. We have not seen anyone like Marcus Garvey before his advent or since his advent.Most Black women during post-slavery knew only a few things, how to work the land and how to work in a domestic capacity.. Despite that there were Black women who were geniuses, madame CJ Walker was the first female self-made millionaire in America and she was a black woman. The everyday average Black woman was a prisoner of her race class and socio-economic status and when you compound tthese three together you have obstacles that are damned near insurmountable , if the greater society u exist within identifies u as having 0 value how do u assign value to urself and people who look like u and are in ur situation?
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i love the term black love , because black is taught that it is always wrong. but yet you can have 2 black people makeing it right. the media also teach black women and black men that their deal mate is suppose to be white,mix race etc. but black love is what proves that ain’t nothing wrong with brown sugar.
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@Bulanik
I was meaning less that it was to be worked on first and that in order for the black women to be liberated as opposed to the white women, her racial freedoms would also need to be worked on at the same time.
That if black people were still as brutally oppressed as ever, what benefits she got from women’s lib would be little if any.
And while there is still a ways to go, racism and mistreatment isn’t as bad as it used to be, enabling woman’s lib to have a greater effectiveness in the black community.
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deepdkchocolate,
Just to be clear, I’m discussing the period of both Civil Rights (1955-mid-1970’s) and the second wave feminist movement (1960’s it mid-70s).
Correct me if I am wrong but both of these movements were happening practically simultaneously, so both race and gender oppression were being addressed by activists.
Keep in mind, I am responding to the poster who said that ‘black women didn’t really need the feminist movement because the white women who were more or less leading this fight were not interested in addressing black womens issues involving race, only gender, and that black women were doing just fine by themselves because Civil Rights movement took care of all their problems.’
My point being that If you remove the racial component, black women still faced gender/sexist issues with black men (just as white women did with white men)…those issues also needed to be addressed back then, highlighted by Bulanik:
“Similar discrimination existed within the Civil Rights Movement. I recall something E.Frances White wrote once, for instance:
‘I remember refusing to leave the discussion at….a meeting to go help out in the kitchen. The process of alienation from those militant and articulate men had begun for me.’
It’s also clear from these times as well, that a large number of the women subordinated themselves and their rights by enforcing strict gender roles on black women”
It’s easy for us to sit back today and Monday morning quarterback history but these women made it easy for us to go out and be independent without having to ask the men in our families for permission, and for this, I respect all those women who stepped up and endured the abuse.
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I agree, my black male friends are foolish but they are a reflection of a society.
I brought up hip hop videos to illustrate that even though black men are no longer oppressed in the workforce arena, they still feel that it is OK to disrespect black women (in general)…
The desire for money often conflicts with peoples ethical/moral views, so yes, lot of people will sell their souls to the devil but
regardless of who really controls the money in the entertainment industry, these black artists do have control over their artistic content, they can choose how they brand themselves and sell themselves to the public, they are not puppets.
“As Byron Hurt says in HIP-HOP: Beyond Beats and Rhymes:
From the outlaw cowboy in American history to the hypermasculine thug of gangster rap, violent masculinity is an enduring symbol of American manhood itself.
Some people say that it’s just boys being boys, but I think it has a lot to do with boys figuring out early that girls are there for us to sexually objectify or to be our sexual playthings.”
And the idea is, these men are so important and so powerful, and these women conversely are so dime a dozen… that they don’t matter, they’re just eye candy, they’re worthless.”
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@Linda–
You said:
I brought up hip hop videos to illustrate that even though black men are no longer oppressed in the workforce arena, they still feel that it is OK to disrespect black women (in general)…
I think that Black men still do face some discrimination and disrespect in the workforce but it is interesting how (in general) they still feel it’s okay to disrespect Black women.
regardless of who really controls the money in the entertainment industry, these black artists do have control over their artistic content, they can choose how they brand themselves and sell themselves to the public, they are not puppets.
I don’t think that Black male artist have total input in how they brand themselves, but they do have a lot of input. Even if White handlers do try to put in content that would disrespect Black women, these Black male artists could tell them that they are not going to disrespect Black women. In general, Black males are willing puppets but will pretend that they had no choice.
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@ Linda.. The difference in Feminism when applied to white women is that it was “liberating” , for black women it is “oppressive”. Black women were heads of their households, held jobs, organised poitically, worked there way through college when white women were home raising kids and being subservient to their husbands,we were “feminists” before the phrase was coined because we had to be.White racist America had and is still to this day destroying the lives of millions of Black males through war, brutality from law enforcement, prison, alcohol and drugs, etc. Black women had to step up and assume the mantle of “Head of Household” so when white women stepped to us and preached about feminism to the average Black woman this was ludicrous coming from a white woman of “privilege” who didn’t have to work had a maid a cook and a nanny, what could this woman possibly know of our struggles? Now the white racist media has made the idea of being an “independent woman” a negative , unless of course said independent woman is white, other than that it is an indictment of black women as being mannish, unattractive and overbearing. The white woman cannot tell the black woman a darned thing in America.
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“jorbia
don’t think that Black male artist have total input in how they brand themselves, but they do have a lot of input.”
That’s true but the music industry is no longer run by just white men,
label owners like Russell Simmons, Suge Knight, LA Reid and other music producers had/do have the abiity to bring about an image change since they have final say in creative content.
will/would it still be as profitable? that’s the question since it’s the green (and not the black) that controls the industry.
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That’s true but the music industry is no longer run by just white men,
label owners like Russell Simmons, Suge Knight, LA Reid and other music producers had/do have the abiity to bring about an image change since they have final say in creative content.
Honestly, I don’t keep up with whose on top in the music industry. It is curious why Black men who have that power would perpetuate these negative images. They too have daughters and Black women in their families.
I think one of the biggest problems in any discussion that pertains to the Black man-Black woman situation is that so many Black American women mince words. They don’t come out and tell Black men what they’re not going to tolerate because that’s considered a “foul” as if this is a game. So many Black American women go along with things that make them feel like nothing in order to keep Black men thinking we’re on their side against White men. That’s the “loyalty” thing but Black American men (in general) are not loyal to Black women.
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I don’t think that Black male artist have total input in how they brand themselves, but they do have a lot of input. Even if White handlers do try to put in content that would disrespect Black women, these Black male artists could tell them that they are not going to disrespect Black women. In general, Black males are willing puppets but will pretend that they had no choice.
No, a Black Artist control in this business is limited if non-existent.They must support a luciferian agenda of promoting amoral behavior, racism and self-hatred.. Don’t want to go off-topic because the record industry and the control it wields over all of its artists , in particular, it’s black artists is pretty well-known. I will post an exerpt from Lauryn Hill’s recent post to her Tumblr account
Lauryn Hill:
“As my potential to work, and therefore earn freely, was being threatened, I did whatever needed to be done in order to insulate my family from the climate of hostility, false entitlement, manipulation, racial prejudice, sexism and ageism that I was surrounded by. This was absolutely critical while trying to find and establish a new and very necessary community of healthy people, and also heal and detoxify myself and my family while raising my young children.”
Lauryn is discussing the control that sinister forces within the “record industry” levy against their “artists” I won’t post the link here but u can read her entire statement just google Lauryn Hill Tumblr post.
The record industry has a clear agenda against the black race with the music promoting violence, sexual amorality, dearth of love, materialism and lack of compassion for others in particular Black Women.
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“deepdkchocolate
The white woman cannot tell the black woman a darned thing in America.”
True, they couldn’t.
but white women had the ear and attention of the white establishment, and by riding along on this train, black/brown women were able to jump off and continue the struggle pertaining to their own issues. This should not be viewed in a negative light because no matter what, it allowed goals to be reached.
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Linda:but white women had the ear and attention of the white establishment, and by riding along on this train, black/brown women were able to jump off and continue the struggle pertaining to their own issues. This should not be viewed in a negative light because no matter what, it allowed goals to be reached.
For white women to even begin to advocate for Black women they would’ve had to understand their plight here in America.
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you showed up on my facebook indirectly from mixed american life
http://www.scoop.it/t/mixed-american-life/p/2100342619/black-love
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@Deep
I heard about Lauryn….least she had courage enough to do it. She looks fabulous while doing it in her long sweeping skirts and teeny weeny afro. She hasn’t let fame change her one bit.
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From laromana:
Linda says,
I do hear what you are saying but I don’t think white women should have had the onus to take up the racial issues of black women if that was something that would detract from their message of equality for all women based on gender.
laromana says,
In order for the mainstream feminism movement to be more inclusive to BW, it must be willing to acknowledge the roles White female privilege-entitlement/racialized sexism/ANTI-BW HATE have played in the lives of BW in America from the slave/Jim Crow/pre Civil rights eras to the present.
From the beginning, BW in America were DENIED human/civil rights and were NOT protected by the justice system (eg. BW/Black girls were subjected to rape, molestation, any kind of violent crime from ANYONE with NO punishment to their perpetrators).
OBVIOUSLY WW in America do NOT have the same history of facing the same mistreatment BW have faced and this affects the brands of feminism that benefit WW vs. those that benefit BW.
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Slavemasters destroyed the black family. — Abag
The black and white divorce and illegitimacy rates had been roughly the same from the end of slavery up until about 50 years ago. So its unlikely “slavery” had anything to do with it. In fact, the black illegitimacy rate has increased from about 25% to 70% in just the past 30 years. The white illegitimacy rate has also been increasing and is about what the black rate was only 30 years ago. Moreover, this hispanic and asian illegitimacy rates are also on the rise. I know how emotionally satisfying it must be for you to blame all your problems on them bad ole white folks. But whites didn’t have anything to do with this one.
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“Laroma,
OBVIOUSLY WW in America do NOT have the same history of facing the same mistreatment BW have faced and this affects the brands of feminism that benefit WW vs. those that benefit BW.”
Linda says,
I don’t see why you are telling me this–No Sh’t!
I’ve been saying all along that I believe black women were foolish back then for thinking white women actually gave a f’ck about black women’s racial issues. History already showed white women supported the current status quo racial wise.
My point was that black women still faced discrimination based on gender, so since black American women had no voice back then and no access to the white male dominated power structure, for black women
it was better to ride along with white women in the feminist movement, to get things done. Since white women could relate to black women on gender issues, something was better than nothing (ex. forced sterilization which affected both poor black and white women)
If white women didn’t want to deal with any racial components, then why detract from the message–use them to achieve a/any goal that furthers the cause of black women’s gender issues. Civil Rights was already dealing with black womens racial issues.
As history showed, once black women realized that white women were unwilling to relate to black womens issues in the movement, since the door was finally open to black women, they cut out and did their own thing and formed their own organizatons.
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“Laroma,
From the beginning, BW in America were DENIED human/civil rights and were NOT protected by the justice system (eg. BW/Black girls were subjected to rape, molestation, any kind of violent crime from ANYONE with NO punishment to their perpetrators”
and this sh’t here you mentioned, plays out everyday all over the world–back then and right now.
I come from a predominately black/brown country where women had practically NO RIghts back then and were subject to the same “rape, molestation, any kind of violent crime from ANYONE with NO punishment to their perpetrators”
They had to deal with this from the very black/brown men who were fathers, brothers, uncles, sons in the community and a government that didn’t give sh’t.
And the men were the ‘head of household’ and the bread winners. Women had no access to good jobs, they were dependent on the men financially. My grandfather refused to let my mother go to high school because she was ‘female” and he didn’t want to ‘waste the money’ (his words) but all 8 of my uncles went.
So, yeah, that’s why I said, if you take race out of it, you’re still left with the same physical, emotional and verbal Abuse, violence, social discrimination, and blatant sexualization that black/women had to endure.
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There are plenty example of black love in the media but they white owned media prefer to push images of black people in relationships with white people. For example hardly anyone know what samuel l jackson and denzel washington’s wives look like & that they are black women. The western media prefer to publicise the likes of kim kardashian & kanye west.
Examples of black love:
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“Slavemasters destroyed the black family. — Abagond”
um.. my family is just fine, lol
I think it would be smart for people to just ignore the media in general
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@ Naija Girl
Copy and paste it there and I will delete it here.
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Black Love , something white people want to destroy..
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Please read the Nigger Marriage. People scare of black love and some find black love as racism. Black love is a powerful system made by two parties. I’ll explain. Interracial isn’t good for everybody. The highest divorce is WM-WW and WW-BM. The new system is made by a wm point of view, not a woman. Female isn’t part of the new system. Her job is keep breeding evil legion. It’s a boy love tradition from buck breaking to origin of the word Romance from Roman. Please Aba share this info.
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As far as those three first bullets, it takes two to tango but I put most of the blame on black women and sapphires. I’m sure a girl would say it’s the mens’ fault.
In spite of being around real flesh-and-blood black men all their lives they get their ideas about how men of their own race are, what to expect from TELEVISION and almost as bad their girlfriends and family members. How dumb is that? So of course when they get one he’ll say stuff sounding like, acting like something out of a BET rap video. And the wheels of disaster are set in motion from there of course.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Jerk
Most young black American girls don’t want a good man, or at least not initially. Maybe after they screw up their lives but first they think a relationship is supposed to be like an exciting movie with them at the center.
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