Afro-Latinos are those in the New World who are black by race, or at least mixed with black, and Latin by culture. Females are called Afro-Latinas. They mostly come from one of two places:
- the Caribbean region, which has as many black and mixed people as America, about 40 million. Most live in Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic.
- Brazil, which has half of all the black and mixed people in the New World.
There are other blacks here and there in Latin America, like in Uruguay.
A few well-known Afro-Latinos or those with Afro-Latino roots:
- Brazilian: Pele, Ronaldo, Leandro Barbosa, Tais Araujo, Adriana Lima, YaYa Da Costa.
- Cuban: Gina Torres, Christina Millian, Fantasia Barrino, Celia Cruz, Soledad O’Brien.
- Dominican: Sammy Sosa, Zoe Saldana, Fabulous, Juelz Santana, Trina, Sessilee Lopez, Arlenis Sosa Peña, Amara La Negra.
- Puerto Rican: Maxwell, Rosario Dawson, Lloyd Banks, Lauren Velez, Roberto Clemente, Reagan Gomez-Preston, Rosie Perez, La-La, Irene Cara, VV Brown, Arturo Schomburg.
- Venezuelan: Hugo Chavez.
- Panamanian: Tatyana Ali, Gwen Ifill.
- Haitian: Garcelle Beauvais, Wyclef Jean, Edwidge Danticat, W.E.B. Du Bois
- Martinique: Frantz Fanon.
- American Creole: Beyonce, Prince.
The blackest countries in Latin America which have at least a million black and mixed people:
- 98% Haiti: 9.8m
- 64% Dominican Republic: 8.5m
- 62% Cuba: 7.1m
- 49% Brazil: 91.2m
- 21% Colombia: 9.0m
- 10% Venezuela: 2.7m
Puerto Rico has almost a million. The western shore of the Caribbean has another million spread between different countries.
America – in very round numbers – has about 3 million (not counting Puerto Rico):
- 0.5m Haitians
- 0.6m black Hispanics, mainly from the Caribbean
- 2.0m Creoles, whose roots go back to French New Orleans but now are pretty much Americanized
There are three times more Afro-Latinos than Afro-Americans – because sugar in the Caribbean and Brazil brought in way more slave labour from Africa than did cotton or tobacco in North America.
Some main points to keep in mind:
- There is no One Drop Rule in Latin countries. So those who are mixed do not see themselves as black and look down on pure blacks. That means colourism runs deeper and yet there is more race mixing.
- Like America, Latin countries kept black slaves and so have racist beliefs about blacks too. On the other hand, the law in Latin countries comes from Roman law where slaves had certain rights, like buying their freedom or taking their master to court. They were not mere property as in Anglo law.
- They freed their slaves but never went through a civil rights movement. Note, though, that Haiti had a revolution.
Racism: just as in America, black and mixed people have lower reading scores, die younger and are twice as likely to live in poverty.
Languages: Portuguese, Spanish, French, Haitian Creole.
Religion: most are Roman Catholics, though often practised with African elements. Voodoo, Candomble and Santeria come from African beliefs. Most of the African Diaspora is Catholic – something you would never guess from living in North America or the West Indies.
Music: Afro-Latinos have given the world new kinds of music, like jazz, merengue, salsa, mambo and samba.
– Abagond, 2009.
See also:
I think Alfonso Ribeiro is Trinidadian not Dominican. Oh and Tatianna Ali (Ashley Banks from fresh prince) is half afro panamanian on her mother’s side
There is a documentray about Afro Latinos here is the trailer it looks real good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny0M6QOVTIg
LikeLike
Don’t forget about mambo, it was created by Damaso Perez Prado, who just happens to be Cuban-Mexican, he was born in Cuba, but later migrated to Mexico.
I like afro-latinos the best, the ones I know are easy going and friendly, they are not defensive at all and are easy to get along with. I chatted last Sunday with an Afro-latino, who just happens to be a Dominican, he was very nice to me and my mom. He has a Mexican girlfriend (by the way he is more handsome than she is pretty) and he is planning to live in Mexico for good, he told me that he feels quite comfortable living in Mexico, it looks like he hasn’t suffered from any racism in Mexico, which leads me to believe that not all problems between Latinos and Blacks are because of racism, perhaps sometimes is about cultural misunderstandings. We have a non-confrontational culture, and some African-Americans are too defensive, upfront and even rude (for our culture standards anyway). That’s why we tend to get along better with Afro-latinos than with Afro-Americans with the former sharing a cultural heritage.
I know one Afro-Haitian (he is a french teacher) one very pretty Afro-Venezuelan lady, Afro-Cubans, Afro-Brazilians and even one Afro-Guatemalan (who is a Witch-doctor by the way) and I do get along extremely well with them.
LikeLike
Thanks for the post Abagond.
Proudly Afro Latino/Carribean!
LikeLike
Um, yummy post. I enjoyed reading it!
LikeLike
@ Aiyo:
Good catch: Ribeiro’s parents came from Trinidad. That they were Dominican is a rumour he started in an interview. I took him off the list. Thanks!
@ Sergio:
I added mambo. Thanks.
LikeLike
I’ve always been a fan of Reagan Gomez, doesn’t she count? Not sure about her background, maybe worth looking into Abagond.
LikeLike
What about Melody Thornton from the Pussycat Dolls? Isn’t she Afro Latina?, again not sure about her background, but i read somewhere that’s she’s Hispanic.
LikeLike
I did not forget her! She is there under Puerto Ricans. I counted anyone with at least one Afro-Latino parent, though the list is far from exhaustive.
LikeLike
Oops, my mistake, you did include her.
Gina Ravera from Soulfood is adorable
Selita Ebanks is gorgeous and Dominican! The hottest Afro Latina model.
Daniel Sunjata is a tricky one, too ambiguous to tell.
LikeLike
Thank you so much for writing about Afro-Latinos. They contributed so much to American culture and beyond. I’m glad to see Fantasia Barrino on the list because so few people acknowledged her Latina roots.
La Reyna
LikeLike
Selita Ebanks is from the Cayman Islands
LikeLike
What about Sessilee Lopez? The Dominican beauty lol
LikeLike
Gina Torres! 😀 I love her! Not surprised that Rita Marley has Afro-Latino ancestry. Jamaicans have been marrying spouses from all over the Caribbean and Latin America for a good long time.
LikeLike
@ dani:
Yeah, duh: Sessilee Lopez. That was an oversight on my part. Thanks. Also: Arlenis Sosa Peña and Trina. I just added all three.
Selita Ebanks is from the Caymans so far as I know.
LikeLike
Yeah, I’m with Lynette, I’m unsure why Louisiana Creoles are listed under Afro-Latinos.
If you’re going to add Haitians under Afro-Latinos, you would might as well add Cape Verdeans. Neither ethnicity are associated with Latin culture. Despite the fact that they were colonized by countries that spoke Latin languages, France and Portuguese, respectively.
I didn’t know that Riberio was Trinidadian! The Dominican claim has been floating around for years! He comes from a heavily Dominican area of NYC so perhaps that’s where the untruth derives from.
Is Bonet truly a Louisiana Creole?
Your list of notable black Latin Americans is missing loads and loads of names.
Tego Calderon (PR), Don Omar (PR), Mongo Santamaria (Cuban), Rosa Clemente (PR), Pedro Albizu Campos (PR, very important Afro-Latino), Piri Thomas (PR), Bernie Williams (PR), David Ortiz (PR), Al Horoford (DR) are just a few to come to mind.
LikeLike
Giancarlo Esposito is not Puerto Rican. His mother is African-American and his father is Italian. Nice blog, btw. 🙂
LikeLike
Ah! Nice list, thanks for listing. Don’t forget about Cuban Sol music.
Mambo was created by the Cubans upon observing Haitian Mambos conducting services (probably Rada) when they arrived on the island of Cuba. There are no Mambos in the Cuban forms of worship.
Rita Marley was born in Cuba as Alpharita Constantia Anderson.
Juan Williams is Panamanian
I know many many Trinidadians that consider themselves Afro-Latinos. Many carry spanish sir names. Soca star Bunji Garlin born Ian Alvarez.
I can understand why Haitians are on the list.
Not all Afro-Latinos are the result of African slaves coming into the western hemisphere. Many are indigenous to the Americas and were here to greet the first Africans that sailed from Africa more than 2000 years ago.
LikeLike
Rita Marley — so being born in Cuba makes her Afro-Latino?
Alot of Jamaicans, Barbadians, etc., lived in Cuba pre-revolution. They are not culturally or ethnically Afro-Latino.
That would be like me being born in China and then calling myself Chinese, even though I wasn’t raised there and am not culturally or ethnically Chinese.
Otherwise, wonderful post, as usual.
LikeLike
Excellent point. Rita Marley was born with an English name – a Jamaican-sounding one, in fact – and many Jamaicans did go to Cuba to find work.
I am taking her off the list for now.
LikeLike
Juan Williams the same thing: he was born near the Canal Zone, his father was named Roger and he grew up in the Episcopal Church. His last name is Anglo too. His mother, however, was possibly Latino: her name was Alma and his first name is Juan. But she could have been white for all I know.
Sounds like he had a black American father who worked in the Canal Zone and a Panamanian mother who may not have been Afro-Latino herself.
LikeLike
Thanks abagond again for thus great post. I enjoyed reading it:)
LikeLike
abagond,
Thanks for the post on Afro-Latinos. A few more to add to the list are Dania Ramirez (actress/Heroes)and Merlin Santana (late actor/Steve Harvey Show).
Why is it that, in North America, Latinos of MIXED RACE Indigenous/Spanish/European descent (“mestizos”) are allowed to classify themselves as JUST Latinos/Hispanics (some are even allowed to INCORRECTLY self identify as “White”) but Latinos of MIXED RACE African/Spanish/Indigenous/European descent (“mullatos”)are EXPECTED to classify themselves as Afro-Latinos (or risk being accused of “not acknowledging their Black roots”)? This has always seemed like a racist double standard to me.
LikeLike
laromana said:
Why is it that, in North America, Latinos of MIXED RACE Indigenous/Spanish/European descent (“mestizos”) are allowed to classify themselves as JUST Latinos/Hispanics (some are even allowed to INCORRECTLY self identify as “White”) but Latinos of MIXED RACE African/Spanish/Indigenous/European descent (“mullatos”)are EXPECTED to classify themselves as Afro-Latinos (or risk being accused of “not acknowledging their Black roots”)? This has always seemed like a racist double standard to me.
Absolutely! I noticed this as well. Especially in Hollywood films. I noticed that mestizos can categorize themselves as Latinos and people are just fine with it. However, Afro-Latinos are not really seen as Latino. Just Black and are often mistaken as Black Americans. I think it has a lot to do with how people perceive what a “Latino” looks like and we forget that Latinos are diverse in physical appearance and skin complexion. Most times when people ask what a Latino person looks like, most times they are mestizo. Also this can go for Latinos who look more white in appearance like Cameron Diaz and Christina Aguilera. Both of their last names are Latino but I noticed that they are not marginalized as “Latino” could it be because of their appearance? Even though Christina has mentioned her Ecuador heritage and Cameron has mentioned her Cuban heritage, why are people not saying they are Latina? They don’t cateogorize them as Latino and neither does Zoe Saldana. She plays more characters that are Black (particularly American) while Cameron plays more roles that White women play despite both of their Latin heritage. Interesting this lets me know that Race is definitely social constructed.
Oh yeah Abagond you forgot Merlin Santana (Romeo from Steve Harvey Show) he is Dominican and Las Alonso is Afro-Cuban
LikeLike
Love this post, thanks,
Tania Maria(Brazil) is a well known Afro-Latina musical genius, well, at least to me she is, I wish you had included her in your list of musicians.
LikeLike
@dani & laromana,
I’ve written the same thing on my blog!
Check it out:
http://neckback.blogspot.com/2009/09/stereotypical-latinolatina-look.html
As for race being a social construct, I don’t buy it.
LikeLike
dani says,
Race is definitely social constructed.
laromana says,
Not only is “race” a STUPID, IRRATIONAL, INVENTED social construct, but, in North America, it has NO BASIS in a person’s REAL identity but rather their “PERCEIVED IDENTITY” according to RACIST White supremacist notions.
LikeLike
Here is a quote from Esmeralda Santiago about her book “When I was Puerto Rican”
“The second reason for the past tense refers to the first. A few days after we arrived in Brooklyn I learned that, by virtue of being in the United States I was “Hispanic”, a word I’d never heard in Puerto Rico, and had certainly never applied to myself or to anyone I knew. Later I learned that people from Spanish speaking countries (though not Spaniards) were also called “Latinos”. It is hard to convey the terror that those two words made me feel when I was first told that I was a Hispanic, or a Latina. It was as if a label were pasted on my forehead, placed there for the benefit of others, to make it easier for them to identify me, saving them the energy to get to know me. I am from Puerto Rico, a real place with its own culture and historical perspective. There is no Hispanica, no Latinica. The words Hispanic and Latina take away from me my place of birth. The title When I was Puerto Rican, then, is a comment on the labeling that turned me into Hispanic and Latina without my knowledge or permission.”
LikeLike
Great post, but would you really categorize Lima as an AfroLatina? I think her dominant ancestry is non-African (both in appearance and ancestry).
LikeLike
Hey Kathy! I remember reading Esmeralda Santiago’s novel “When I Was Puerto Rican” it was great at narrating her life growing up in Puerto Rico and then moving to the US in New York. She struggles with her identity as being labeled “Hispanic” because too many people in American told her that was what she is. That’s why I don’t generalize, I ask specifically people’s ethnicity. I tend to believe that ethnicity and cultural should be people’s identity more so than race. The reason is because identifying with race is complicated and confusing.
LikeLike
Dominican, Puerto Rican and Jamaican and I
m loving it.
LikeLike
Lynette I still don’t have a copy of your dissertation 😦
LikeLike
I just sent it. That was my fault.
LikeLike
This is a great post. I learned a lot. I didn’t know all of this information. Thanks so much for posting it.
LikeLike
The ’70s funk-rock band, Mandrill, should also be added. They were from Panama. As was the legendary jazz fusion drummer Billy Cobham.
What about all of my other suggestions?
And also, again, why are Louisiana Creoles listed as Afro-Latinos? That’s a bit incorrect. And who says Bonet is one? Is it because of her surname?
LikeLike
@mynameismyname
I can see your point about Louisiana Creoles not being “latino” but as I have said if the “Louisiana Purchase” didn’t happen they would most certainly be “latino”
LikeLike
Any afro-latinos in ecuador?
LikeLike
In those latin countries many of those people are considered mixed or moreno.adriana lima would probably be seen as white in Brazil. The 64% of black dominicans are vastly mixed. In the U.S ofcourse the racial dynamics are different, just stating a point. But still with latinos in the U.S its seems that those who look more white or mixed such as eva mendes, adriana lima, JLO, fat joe, and even rosario dawson (she looks more obviously part black) are mainly seen as latino.
However when a latino who looks like tatyani ali or wyclef john comes to the U.S they are seen as black more so than latino. For some reason there is still a certain look ie. JLO that is associated with looking latin. Its funny because latino is not a race.
LikeLike
kadi Says:
Any afro-latinos in ecuador?
Of course! There are a lot of afro-latinos in the major European football (or as you yanks call it soccer) leagues!
Check this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Famous_Afro-Latinos
LikeLike
http://www.backdrop.net/sm-201/index.php?title=Vaness_Del_Rio
LikeLike
I am Jamaican, with extended family in Belize, Cuba. My grandfather was born and raised in Panama and came to Jamaica to visit family where he fell in love with Grandma.
Historically, Jamaica has always had a close relationship with Cuba, Panama, Costa Rica, Belize, and other Central American countries. The people in these countries with Jamaican ancestors speak spanish and still have ties to Jamaica. In the 1800’s and early 1900’s, Jamaican men immigrated to Central America for the jobs and many married local women and settled into communities. Jamaica has always been close to Cuba–people travelled back and forth and not just because of work. Castro and the Manley’s are cousins.
Jamaica has a similar history (African, European, Spanish, Indigenous Taino/Carib)culture just like the spanish-speaking islands. Jamaicans have been pigeon-holed because the rest of world only sees us as the land of Reggae, rastas, and English dialect with a cute accent. Rita may have an English-derived last name but it doesn’t mean that she or her family doesn’t have ancestral ties to Cuba that go way back.
LikeLike
Wow no one had any issues with the comments Sergio made. I guess to be non American black always better right? American Creole I don’t think falls into the hispanic/latino dynamic, and Lisa Bonet nor Prince would fall into American Creole culture, being mixed race does not make one creole. You can be white and creole, you can also be black and creole, you can also be native american and creole.
LikeLike
Right: Creole is a culture, not a race. But only black Creoles could possibly count as Afro-Latinos.
Black American Creoles are pretty much Americanized these days, so in that sense they are not Afro-Latino, but their roots are most certainly Latin. They belong weakly but still belong: most of the “points to keep in mind” apply to them but then got changed up a bit by becoming part of America.
“Afro-Latin” might be a better word since “Latino” has, in practice, come to mean just “Hispanic”. I doubt most people could even tell you the difference between the two words. They would count Brazilians as Latinos, yes, but most of them probably also think Brazilians speak Spanish.
I put “in the New World” in my definition because otherwise I would wind up adding not just Cape Verdeans but also anyone in Africa who grew up speaking French or Spanish or Portuguese, of which there are quite a number in Angola, Gabon, Ivory Coast and Sao Tome.
I cannot remember why I think Lisa Bonet is Creole, so I might be wrong about her. I will take her off the list.
LikeLike
Abagond, I don’t know if you have heard of the group the Last Poets but for a brief moment one of the members was a black puerto rican. I am not sure of his name but he proudly demonstrated his puerto rican roots in his vocal poetry. The last poets by the way was a group of young black men during the 70’s who spoke poetry and made many albums. The poetry was socially conscious and preached against racism. I wonder if you could do a article about the Last Poets and specifically the Afro-puerto rican member who later on became a commenter on tv. thanks.
LikeLike
I keep hearing about them but never knew quite who they were, so I will do a post at least on them. Thanks.
LikeLike
Black/latinas and black African are sisters and beautyful
LikeLike
I had to stop in the middle of reading, just to note that you are stating a lot of these things as facts, yet I see some seemingly unfair generalizations made; this is just an observation. por ejemplo: “There is no One Drop Rule in Latin countries. So those who are mixed do not see themselves as black and look down on pure blacks.” Not all of us mixed and/or Afro-Latinos look down on pure blacks, & then I question what “pure” blacks are being referred to, because one who may “look” pure black to you, most likely is not pure black at all. Wouldn’t pure black apply more to our ancestors(slaves) as opposed to us (their mixed descendants)? Also, Adriana Lima is considered Afro-Latina?? wow, I never knew. However, I guess if Soledad O’Brien could be considered Afro-Latina (one parent is &fro Cuban) then Adriana Lima could, too. They just don’t seem to fit that imo, however, I’m a lighter skinned to medium caramel tone and I could be considered an afro-Latina because of certain features I have so maybe people are going off of their features, not their very olive complexions and hair type. Still, their facial features don’t scream out Latinegra or Afro-Latina to me so I guess people have their own perceptions just like everyone has their own ideas & definitions of racial & ethnic labels. On another note, Fantasia is also “rumored” to have some Cuban ancestry although she said it wasn’t confirmed. And where is Dania Ramirez at under the list of Dominicans? Zoe is half Dominican, half Puerto Rican…I think it should be interesting to people of the vast array of looks we can have because Michelle Rodriguez (who is obviously NOT afro-latina) has the same half & half mix as Zoe S. and there are many more like them, all with unique looks so that is quite interesting. I am in no way trying to be condescending or a smart alec, I’m just pointing out inconsistencies I see, correct me if I am wrong, and enlighten me. Anyway, I did enjoy this blog post for the most part! Afro-Latinas p’lante y asta la tambora~
LikeLike
Once again, no harm meant, just trying to get some clarification, thanks for posting this so more people can become conscious about our existence in the world!
LikeLike
Ensayn, Im fascinated by your description of mambo. Do you have any referance for that, about the Haitions bringing mambo to Cuba?
I always thought it was invented from a descarga at the end of a rumba (a double time vamp out at the end of a rumba) .
Id love to know any information about this if you can linc it up for me
LikeLike
LikeLike
The Reawakening of Afro-Argentine culture
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/argentina/090810/afro-argentines-assert-identity-culture
LikeLike
I thought it was a bit much and so it proved, as my post got discarded.
I had presented (with the links) of other Afro-Latins in the following countries:
1. Bolivia
2. Chile
3. Costa Rica
4. Ecuador
5. El Savador – Though strictly speaking there are none since many are mixed
6. Guatemela
7. Mexico
8. Paraguay
9. Peru
10. Uruguay
I wish I had done it that way to begin with it would have save me a lot of time ha ha.
Either way all Latin American countries are now covered in this post
LikeLike
trigu3nas0y,
The Afrolatino classification has NOTHING to do with your “PERCEIVED LOOK” but your ACTUAL GENETIC identity.
It is common for two people from the SAME family and SAME Afrolatino (AFRICAN/SPANISH/NATIVE-OTHER) GENETIC MIX to “APPEAR” to SOME to be from DIFFERENT “RACES” when they LOGICALLY aren’t.
For instance, if Michelle Rodriguez (who, contrary to what you think, DOES look like an Afrolatina) and Zoe Saldana are BOTH half Dominican and half Puertorican then they are BOTH OBVIOUSLY Afrolatinas REGARDLESS of how some may “PERCEIVE” their appearance.
LikeLike
Louisiana Creoles are direct cousins of Haitians, so if you’re not going to include them in your definition, you should take out Haitians, too.
LikeLike
Also am fairly sure Lisa Bonet’s father is a Louisiana Creole. Her Cosby Show co-star Sabrina LaBeauf is also Creole, and there are many more.
LikeLike
laromana,
thanks for sharing your own personal perception of this, which is exactly what it is Michelle, if anything has a significant amount of native ancestry, which is not to say she is without african. that would be expected given dr & pr’s history. LOL @ all that emphasis as if it can’t be understood without an ‘attempt’ to pwn somebody.
Sit back & woosah for a sec, it might help. her being afro-latina could be believable but seriously, going by the same questionable curiosity towards O’Brien & Lima. The point was there are a wide array of colors & skin-tones within the Dominican and PR community…even if you’re olive toned or fair skinned, it would not be unnatural for our own people to call them words associated with black, if not black itself. It’s not merely associated with the skin color, a lot more determines such, and Michelle R. being called Afro-Latina (which is a first i’ve read or heard) would be extremely debateable around a group of dominicans & puerto ricans. I’ll believe it the next time she does an interview where her ethnic origin is discussed and she states it herself. So far, she has specifically identified with being Dominican & Puerto Rican, unlike Zoe, who has stated clearly she is BOTH & also a negra, a BLACK woman. Of which Michelle is obviously far from. So really it’s perception vs native islander logic & lack of U.S One Droppists biased-thinking. In other words yours vs mine. Carry on.
LikeLike
To trigu3nas0y –
I’m bumping adding to this topic because another poster (Jazmin) and myself got a little off-topic. It just so happens that it is probably most approprately continued here.
You said: “So far, she has specifically identified with being Dominican & Puerto Rican, unlike Zoe, who has stated clearly she is BOTH & also a negra, a BLACK woman. Of which Michelle is obviously far from. So really it’s perception vs native islander logic & lack of U.S One Droppists biased-thinking. In other words yours vs mine. Carry on.”
My comments: Such an interesting topic (which is one of the reasons I’m here.) I don’t believe in this One drop rule or you are either Black OR White stuff. One can get into this whole debate about just when is “Black”, black enough? or when is being less White, not enough, Too White, blah blah blah. Nonsense… To further complicate the issues of identification, race and ethnicity, you will often hear Hispanics say, “I’m not white, I’m Hispanic.” In fact, you can be both White and Hispanic. Many Brazilians choose not to use the term Hispanic. They may more acceptingly use Lusotanian; however, that term is even less understood. For purposes of this discussion, lets just agree to use “Latino”. (From Latin American)
I find it odd that many Latinos may choose to not be associated as White, even though they are by saying, “I’m not White, I’m Hispanic. -because they perceive White as being “uncool”. Ironically, the term Hispanic is rooted in European origin referring to the Iberian Peninsula. (Spain & Portugal) Once again, “I’m not Whtie, I’m Hispanic!”
For Afro-Latinos to choose to acknowledge their Latino heritage or identity by not solely identify as “Black”, I find to be quite acceptable. I think for them it is simply a way to say I’m Black with a Latino background and roots because it is a sense of pride. I don’t think it is the desire to be “less” Black.
As you pointed out, notions on racial identity and level of whiteness, blackness one is, vary widely in the Latino culture. (Depending what region you are in, or even certain areas. This whole concept of race was invented by man, and here we are left to deal with. Black OR White, give me a break.
I thought I’d get this thread kicked off again. Feel free to share………
LikeLike
Color of Luv,
I’m glad I guessed right which thread you would go to. 🙂
I’m taking a Mental Health disparities class right now, and the topic of health issues by race really brings the whole “Hispanic” debate to light. Researchers want to find racial differences in health issues because it guides treatment outcomes, but the problem is no group is homogeneous enough to get good results (especially in the US). If you are a Black person who’s 10% White will your “Whiteness” skew study results? What if you are 30%? I think these issues are so interesting because it shows how “race” is set to self-destruct within 20-30 years, I predict. It’s too fluid to matter much anymore, unless you genetically test every citizen, which is too time-consuming and cost-prohibitive to ever work.
LikeLike
Personally I think you may be conflating too many issues here ColorofLuv. So much so, I am not quite sure where to begin with in my comments, since there are so many differing issues…
LikeLike
I’m with you Jazmin… I think the U.S. in 30 years will look much like Brazil does today, maybe even more so? (Dare I say)
J – I do agree that is convoluted, but so is the notion of race. Afterall, race has been disproven. Genetic markers do differ within certain “phenotypes”, but that is not an exact science in and of itself. There are many “White” Ameicans who don’t even know they carry a large amount of genetic marker that one would associate with being “overtly” Black American in appearance. But I digress….
FG – – / MontiQue – – ???
Where are the Black/Belizean/Afro-Belizean, Afro-Latino, just plain ole “Latino” comments from you two???
LikeLike
Sorry ColorofLuv just seen your comments.
What I would say this talk of race being disproven is not quite an exact representation of what is actually happening on the ‘ground’.
I think the concept of ‘race’ in Latin America as elsewhere is predicated on what you look like to the external world and NOT what your genetics may reveal.
LikeLike
Afro-Latin America, 1800-2000 By George Reid Andrews
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s8Nlhj528pwC&dq=afro-latin+america+george+reid+andrews&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=UdugS-rSBMbKjAfXu4noDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
LikeLike
J –
I appreciate your feedback. You said, “I think the concept of ‘race’ in Latin America as elsewhere is predicated on what you look like to the external world and NOT what your genetics may reveal.”
This is interesting, in Brazil, race is seen much differently. There are many bi-racial or even Black Americans that would be seen as White in Brazil, while in the U.S, they would be seen as Black.
I’m trying to get other opinions on this too. I know in P.R. for example, one can be “trigueno” and not necessarily Black. I can really only comment on Brazil since that is what i know, but that is why I’m interested in hearing from other posters that have Carribean/Latin American experience in dealing with this.
Thanks & Cheers!
LikeLike
When I suggested that ‘race’ is predicated essentially upon the classifying of the pheneotype and/or any other ‘marker’ that may be utilsed.
There are diferent variants of how differnt cultures make their classification: For instance
1. Black + White = Black (US/ Parts of Caribbean/UK)
2. Black + White = Multivariant (Latin America)…With ‘Black being one end of the continuum and ‘White’ the other
3. Black + White = Arab (Arabia/Egypt etc) irrespective of skin colour
This might be a slight over-simplification but at least hopefully it gets the point over.
I think these classifications are probably affected by how the ‘host’ nations actually view themselves.
As I said previously elsewhere conjecturing, the Spanish and Portugese could not adopt the ‘one drop’ rule because they were already a very mixed nation with (European/Arab/Berber/African)
What do you think??
LikeLike
I think the analysis of the Iberians, Italians, etc… (essentially Southern Europe) being influenced greatly by the Moors of North Africa lends itself to this concept.
In Spain, you can have blond hair/blue eyes or someone with dark skin and black curly hair. It seems logical that after some mixing in the Latin American countries it would be difficult to consider someone who looked much like you, that they are “Black”.
With Brazil, you can literally be standing in a crowded bar, restaurant, stree fair, etc… and not know where White or Black starts or ends…. There are immediate family members where one sister is considered mulatta, the other sister ‘White”, and the brother ‘Moreno’. (unlike other countries, moreno in Brazil is used rather loosely and cannot describe one particular phenotype.)
Maybe an example of this in the U.S. would be Quincy Jones biracial daughters Rashida Jones looks White while Kadida may go for pardo ou morena
LikeLike
Rashida –
Kadida –
(actually, looking for pictures I think Kadida would be considered morena and not mulatta nor pardo.)
LikeLike
Thanks…
And with regard to Brazil, how would say class or status affect things, if at all…
Would a wealthy ‘moreno’ be perceived as ‘White’ as opposed to a ‘moreno’ if he was poor??
Hope this example is accurate, if not I hope you know what I mean??
LikeLike
After having a look at your images
I should have added that in the UK…There is a move that is slowly taking place to a new race classification of ‘bi-racial’ to incorporate a person who is of Black/White parentage – but it is in its infancy stage
LikeLike
J – it is possible that a wealthy ‘moreno’ would be seen as White. This is the tricky thing.
Wealth & Class is the major divider in Brazil, not appearance. Obviously if you look at the Favelas, this disparity is obvious, but depending on what favela you are in (regionally) you will see a lot of ‘white’ kids too. Because the color line is blurred though, its not as cut & dry.
Thad would be a good resource for a lot of these questions.
LikeLike
Interesting J… I think that is a travesty. A race-classification for “bi-racial”. Are we moving forwards or backwards? sheeesh…
LikeLike
Its interesting your observations ColorofLuv. Personally I do not know.
Some are glad for the classification because it gives them the chance to incorporate both heritages instead of the
one – meaning that if you looked bi-racial and looked less than ‘White’ then you are Black
Others suggest it could be about government wanting to manipulate the statistic figure. As of yet since it is in its infancy no-one cans say for sure.
In London, I do not know other parts of the country. There has also been a large influx of Latin Americans to the country.
Writing this response has alerted me that I have no idea of how these recent arrivals are viewed by the Government and or people generally??
I have a Black Brazilian friend from Bahia. If you know football, I would say the same complexion as the left-back Roberto Carlos.
Owing to the circles I move in, I can say he is classified as ‘Black’ but I have never asked him how he sees himself and/or how he sees himself vis-a-vis English society??
LikeLike
You said, “Owing to the circles I move in, I can say he is classified as ‘Black’ but I have never asked him how he sees himself and/or how he sees himself vis-a-vis English society??”
Interesting… My wife is also from Bahia. She does not consider herself “Black”, but is identified as such by “Black Americans”. Among the Latinos she is seen as “morena”. Interestingly, she can “be” whatever she wants to be at any given time. As i stated previously, there is a lot of leeway with that term. We’re living in Miami where you have all the Caribbean/Latin influence you could imagine. Mixed race couples are common because quite frankly, all the Dominicans, Puerto Ricans and Cubans (Brazilians/Colombians too) of mixed families are overwhelming. You start getting into places like Chicago or St. Louis and you find a greater tendency towards the general population attempting to categorize you racially.
LikeLike
I would be your friend does not consider himself “Black”. If the various photos of Roberto Carlos (footballer) are any indications, he could be Moreno too. (Especially from Bahia.)
I have found “moreno” in Rio is different than “moreno” in Bahia. (to further convolute the term, lol)
LikeLike
I didn’t notice your request for input until just now, ColorOfLuv. I can’t give a Latino perspective on this as I don’t have any roots in that part of the world. My parents are both Anglos. Nevertheless, I have read much about how race is organized in Latin America.
I sense racial classification in the US is coming to more closely resemble that of places like Brazil. Something that I and other mixed people have noticed is that biracials who are near-caucasian, like Rashida Jones, are nowadays being claimed as white by whites. Race is getting more complex and fuzzy in the US, owing in large part to immigration from down south. This is likely contributing to the breakdown of black-white binary thinking.
LikeLike
J says,
As I said previously elsewhere conjecturing, the Spanish and Portugese could not adopt the ‘one drop’ rule because they were already a very mixed nation with (European/Arab/Berber/African)
ColorOfLuv says,
There are immediate family members where one sister is considered mulatta, the other sister ‘White”, and the brother ‘Moreno’. (unlike other countries, moreno in Brazil is used rather loosely and cannot describe one particular phenotype.)
Maybe an example of this in the U.S. would be Quincy Jones biracial daughters Rashida Jones looks White while Kadida may go for pardo ou morena
laromana says,
The FACT that IMMEDIATE family members can “APPEAR” to be one “RACE” or another is a major reason “RACE” should be defined by your ACTUAL ANCESTRY and not by some ARBITRARY APPEARANCE BASED classification system.
It’s ABSURD to classify IMMEDIATE family members as being DIFFERENT “RACES” when they’re NOT.
LikeLike
“The FACT that IMMEDIATE family members can “APPEAR” to be one “RACE” or another is a major reason “RACE” should be defined by your ACTUAL ANCESTRY and not by some ARBITRARY APPEARANCE BASED classification system.
It’s ABSURD to classify IMMEDIATE family members as being DIFFERENT “RACES” when they’re NOT.”
Well, hey, one droppists like yourself seek to have white parents and their biracial kids classified as being completely different races. So what gives?
LikeLike
To Laromana…
That is why i have problem with the concept of race all together.
To FG – you saud, “This is likely contributing to the breakdown of black-white binary thinking.” — I really hope you are right.
I had a friend in the military who was “White”. A group of us were all standing around talking about diversity. After awhile, he bluntly stated “my mom is Black”. A lot of people in the group almost lost it. They couldn’t believe it. He showed everybody a picture of his mom. Some people called him a liar. I felt bad for him… (this was nothing new to me having lived in Brazil. I knew this was possible) That was a strong reminder to me just how polarized racial categorization can be in the U.S.
Here is a pic of Eartha Kitt and her daughter and grandaughter. http://images.starpulse.com/pictures/2009/01/14/previews/Eartha%20Kitt,%20Daughter%20Kitt,%20and%20Grandaug-AGM-012071.jpg
LikeLike
FG says,
Well, hey, one droppists like yourself seek to have white parents and their biracial kids classified as being completely different races. So what gives?
laromana says,
I’m NOT a “one droppist” (whatever THAT is) so what gives with you?
LikeLike
@ColorOfLuv,
Yes, things like that still happen, but I think it’s becoming less common.
LikeLike
“I had a friend in the military who was “White”. A group of us were all standing around talking about diversity. After awhile, he bluntly stated “my mom is Black”. A lot of people in the group almost lost it. They couldn’t believe it. He showed everybody a picture of his mom. Some people called him a liar. I felt bad for him… (this was nothing new to me having lived in Brazil. I knew this was possible) That was a strong reminder to me just how polarized racial categorization can be in the U.S.”
People with a predominance in Euro-ancestry but also with a significant amount of African ancestry are rare in the United States. Hence, the surprise that comes from a revelation like this. It seems like alot of American mixed people find Brazil intriguing because many Brazilians are similar to them in ancestry and appearance, like Adriana Lima.
LikeLike
To FG: you said, “It seems like alot of American mixed people find Brazil intriguing because many Brazilians are similar to them in ancestry and appearance, like Adriana Lima.”
I would agree with that.
The irony with my personal experience is that both of my parents are white, yet I was often mistaken for being bi-racial growing up. (Predominantly due to hair and non-stereotypical facial features.) In Brazil, if people wanted to comment or guess on my heritage, they would say something like (translated) “You have a foot in Africa.” They would say this even though I am “white and recognized as such in Brazil. Today, I am almost 40 years old and people generally don’t question my background; however, in my teens and twenties, it happened all the time.
LikeLike
“The irony with my personal experience is that both of my parents are white, yet I was often mistaken for being bi-racial growing up. (Predominantly due to hair and non-stereotypical facial features.) In Brazil, if people wanted to comment or guess on my heritage, they would say something like (translated) “You have a foot in Africa.” They would say this even though I am “white and recognized as such in Brazil. Today, I am almost 40 years old and people generally don’t question my background; however, in my teens and twenties, it happened all the time.”
The US racial system will have to adjust one way or another. The number of people who are of some intermediate phenotype is growing too large for it not to.
LikeLike
I agree…
In addition, with the influx of Latin Americans from many different countries and the diverse background that they themselves consist of, I believe will force the re-evaluation of race and “categorzation” in this country.
I cringe when I see forms to fill out that say things like: White, Black, Hispanic, White-Hispanic, Black-Hispanic, Native American, Pacific Islander, Other, Middle Eastern …
LikeLike
With regard to:
The FACT that IMMEDIATE family members can “APPEAR” to be one “RACE” or another is a major reason “RACE” should be defined by your ACTUAL ANCESTRY and not by some ARBITRARY APPEARANCE BASED classification system.
It’s ABSURD to classify IMMEDIATE family members as being DIFFERENT “RACES” when they’re NOT.
I understand (or I hope I do) what you are saying here. Perhaps the only difficulty though is that the ‘masses in society’ will not know who is descended from which ancestry. I guess they will look at ‘outward appearance’ and other markers if they can be identified like class .
Also I guess on a different level, if a society is not racist. then i suppose you could have family being of different races – but in this isnstance it would not matter, if you follow my subtle line of reasoning
LikeLike
Top of the morning to you ColourofLuv. Whilst travelling around London this evening. The Irish community are celebrating…It mIst be the St. Patrick’s celebrations
LikeLike
Thanks J !!! HAVE A GUINNESS and have some fun! lol (Ever have corned beef and cabbage? It’s an “American-Irish” thing seeing as it was created here, so you see it on the menus all over during St. Paddy’s in the U.S) Probably not available across the BIG pond…
Cheers
LikeLike
Ah the old corn beef and cabbage, America has to put a spin on everything don’t we?
LikeLike
Oh – speaking of questionnaires, the influx of Latinos, and even moreso “Afro-Latinos”, I thought I’d share something I accidentally came across.
I was digging around the internet trying to find different sources for racial classification, genetics, etc… –
– – when low and behold I hit that dreaded website I first heard mention of here on Abagond’s blog. (S t o r m f r o n t !!!) My goodness. You know what some of those yahoos were talking about? They were posting pictures of Black and bi-racial individuals who have “White children” stating that genetic testing should be mandatory so they can ‘sort out the difference between “Blacks’ and Whites. LOL …. They said, “You just can’t tell anymore.” Apparently, appearances aren’t enough anymore, genetics would be a much more reliable form of racist bigotry!!!
I had to share that… (I couldn’t believe it.)
LikeLike
Colorofluv says:
Afterall, race has been disproven.
Sigh. This is an old problem. Race a a biological construct almost certainly does not exist among humans, true.
That, however, is not the same thing as saying it doesn’t exist. As a social and historical construct, race quite provably exists.
With Brazil, you can literally be standing in a crowded bar, restaurant, stree fair, etc… and not know where White or Black starts or ends….
Tee hee.
We’ll see.
I’m teaching a “biology of race” class this semester and the first thing I’m going to do is tell my students to organize themselves based on race. We’ll see what these so-called “non-racist” Brazilians come up with, won’t we? 😀
Colorofluv is doing a good job of describing how race works in Brazil, but there’s one important aspect he’s left out.
Race is shifting and contextual here.
In other words, you’re not assigned one essential category and that’s it for the rest of your life. Depending on the situation, the same person can be classified as black, white, or brown. “Mixed” is also our polite national default. I’m as white as can be (maybe a very, very small Indian component there somewhere, but nothing noticeable) and yet I’ve been classified as “moreno” after a week or so on the beach.
“Mulata”, by the way, is more of a moral rather than a color or racial category. I’ve seen extremely pale women get called “mulatas” (mostly prostitutes).
The big difference between American and Brazilian race isn’t even the color categories: it’s Americans’ insistence that race is fixed and essential versus Brazilians’ moving categories about as the desire or need takes them.
LikeLike
To Thad,
you said, “I’m teaching a “biology of race” class this semester and the first thing I’m going to do is tell my students to organize themselves based on race. We’ll see what these so-called “non-racist” Brazilians come up with, won’t we?”
Let me know how that goes!
As for you being Moreno in Brazil, I believe it. By the way, while they would tell me (in Rio/Niteroi) that i had a “foot in Africa”, they would never call me ‘Moreno’. Did you get called ‘moreno in rio -or- Sao Paulo? Here is why I ask based on my personal experience.
1. Rio, Moreno = Dark Hair, Brown/light brown skin
2. Sao Paulo, Moreno = Dark hair, olive skin. (mediterranean look)
3. Salvador, Moreno = Person of “obvious phenotypical” African heritage, but not quite enough to be Mulatto. (Also some mulattos are referred to as moreno)
Of course, these are my observations and as you have noted in your previous post, this terminology is fluid.
LikeLike
J says,
I understand (or I hope I do) what you are saying here. Perhaps the only difficulty though is that the ‘masses in society’ will not know who is descended from which ancestry. I guess they will look at ‘outward appearance’ and other markers if they can be identified like class .
Also I guess on a different level, if a society is not racist. then i suppose you could have family being of different races – but in this isnstance it would not matter, if you follow my subtle line of reasoning
laromana says,
Human relations will truly have EVOLVED when an individual can be classified by their nationality/culture and their ACTUAL ancestry rather than their “PERCEIVED race”.
LikeLike
Laromana –
You said, “Human relations will truly have EVOLVED when an individual can be classified by their nationality/culture and their ACTUAL ancestry rather than their “PERCEIVED race”.”
I totall agree!!! ‘Perceived’ is the key word. LOL – I’m still laughing when I think about the comments/thread I came across on the STORM chaser, I mean trooper, I mean ‘front’ site. Those fanatics over there are realizing now that you cannot “Perceive” someones race by appearance only, so they have proposed using genetic test to ensure they “know who is non-white”!!!! I’m not kidding. I can totally envision this future fantasy world they talk about.
They’ll divide the country into Black & White based on genetic tests. Since they no longer go by appearances, both sides will resemble each other phenotypically and hatred will be based on what personal genetic stamp you have. —- Now those guys are over the top! ! !
I can just imagine those yahoos saying, “I cried all night long. I mean, I just couldn’t believe it. My favorite show, Prison Break. I mean, I didn’t know Wentworth Miller was Black! TV will never be the same… boo hoo.”
lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol, lol,……..
LikeLike
And what you say here, ColorofLuv, if it did occur would be anotehr way of classifying race,…The human mind can think of anything in this regard
And this is an example of what I said that humans tend to ‘look for’ differences, in our conversation on ‘centrisms’
LikeLike
You said, “Human relations will truly have EVOLVED when an individual can be classified by their nationality/culture and their ACTUAL ancestry rather than their “PERCEIVED race”.”
Guys, not to evoke Godwin’s Theorem here, but that was precisely Adolph Hitler’s dream, you know?
Seriously.
One of the many definitions of racism is that its the belief that biology breaks humans down into discrete groups and that human behavior is determined by said biology.
So what you’resaying is that, somehow, your biological ancestry should determine how the world sees you? You folks think that there’s a REAL, ACTUAL race behind all this and that it’s dominant enough in our behavior that human social groups needs must be based around it?
Hell, welcome to Classic Racism 101.
LikeLike
Thad,
I don’t think that is what Laromana was saying. I find it fascinating that genetic testing can determine what geographic region your ancesters came from by looking at different markers in the code. I’m certainly interested in mine. Granted, it does not define who I am as a human being.
As far as race goes. I think most educated individuals on the topic understand that this is a man-made construct. Afterall, we literally were descended from one Man who has been dubbed “Adam”. They have “Eve” too, but I believe they have since discovered there are more than likely multiple females and not just one. In contrast, I think they have proven that all modern day humans share the same forefather.
Essentially, major phenotypical differences within the Human population didn’t start to occur until 20,000 years ago. (I’ll have to double check that.)
LikeLike
just wanted to asdd in, i don’t think Haitians, Guadeloupeans, Martinicans, St. Lucians, etc. are considered latinos, anymore than Jamaicans,Bahamians, Trinidadians. we are in the region of the world called Latin America, and but that term is mainly used to describe spanish speakers.
LikeLike
Tia — good point.
I think there are a lot more in terms of commanalities, which is also why Abagond included the “Creoles” of Louisiana. I speak Portuguese and Spanish, so I can understand some ‘papamiento’.
Definitely there are things that make each place unique; however, I would find the Dominican Republic or Puerto Rico to have more in common with a lot of Brazil, than say – Bolivia. Obviously this is due to a greater influence of the presence of the African cultures. (Yoruba, etc…)
LikeLike
Dudes, you’ve gotta check this link out. It’s so funny!
Here’s the link:
LikeLike
I’ll have to check this out when I get home. (No volume on the work comp.)
LikeLike
US rapper/singer Aloe Blacc is a black Panamanian. He has released songs in both English and Spanish, including a Spanish-version of John Legend’s “Ordinary People”.
LikeLike
Here’s a video of fine afro latina talking about the DR & Haiti rift:
LikeLike
afro latinos didn’t have a damn thing to do with jazz. there is no genetic race amongst humans. culture is not based on country of origin but on lifesyle.
LikeLike
Dominicans don’t have any problem claiming their African roots. They just don’t like calling themselves black, even if they look black. The reason for this is the Dominicans associate black identify with Haitians, who they despise (for ethnic rather than racial reasons). The reason for this is that the two groups have a long history of fighting and killing each other going all the way back to the Haitian revolution.
LikeLike
Hispaniola is sort of the New World version of the Balkans.
LikeLike
Pasted from another thread so as not to derail. Thoughts on Brazil, relationship to the rest of Latin America and the United States.
@ Thad
– oddly enough, most Americans don’t realize that Brazil is the same size as the Continental United States. Only Alaska makes the U.S. bigger than Brazil.
Note: (moving to the suggestion thread) Brazilians often don’t identify with the rest of Latin Americans, while many other Latin Americans look up to Brazil and seem to exude this innate admiration for the people & culture -claiming it as theirs. (When in reality I often find Brazilians (from Brazil) identifying more closely with the U.S. than other Latin countries. Your thoughts/perspective? (I think I’ll take this to the Afro-Latino thread.)
————— Continued Thoughts —————–
(Oddly enough, the Afro and Portuguese influence drives the base connection, Brazilinas themselves identify more closely with the U.S. than other Latin countries.) If I had to rank off the top of my head in a Brazilian perspective, it would be:
1. Brazilian first: in all its culture/glory (including Afro roots)
2. Relate to the U.S. – rich in resources, huge immigrant influx, an economic powerhouse.
3. Relate/Identify with other Latin countries.
LikeLike
An interesting video on Afro-identity in Peru:
LikeLike
@CoL
I find it fascinating that genetic testing can determine what geographic region your ancesters came from by looking at different markers in the code.
Actually, it doesn’t.
Being that we all come from Africa, ultimately, you need to make a subjective decision as to WHEN you’re going to stop counting ancestors – whether 500 years ago, 10,000 years ago or what have you.
Given that, it seems to me that this is another social construct, actually. Yes, mDNA can tell you where your ancestors came from, but why stop at the 500 year line? Why not stop at, say, 60 years or 10,000?
It’s a historicsal event – the European expansion – that makes that 500 year “origin” relevant, not anything keyed into the human genes.
LikeLike
@CoL
When in reality I often find Brazilians (from Brazil) identifying more closely with the U.S. than other Latin countries. Your thoughts/perspective?
Well, first of all, it depends on region. Rio probably identifies more with France, in general, and São Paulo with Italy. But yeah, if Brazilians were forced to pick a country in the Americas with which to identify, the U.S. would probably top the rest. However, most Brazilians would probably be holding their noses as they picked.
LikeLike
Abagond,
Blackness is a blessing, Not a curse! A lot of people on this planet would give anything to be in our shoes, Never Forget That!!!
LikeLike
As mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) mutates very slowly, it can give an indication of early MATERNAL origins — “early” meaning thousands of years ago, as opposed to mere hundreds. And it’s only a tiny percentage of the genetic profile, and doesn’t account for all genes passed down from all ancestors.
My mtDNA is said to have originated with a woman who lived in East Africa approximately 70,000 years, and whose descendants are among those who never left Africa. Today, this specific haplogroup has a concentration in Mozambique, SE Africa. About two percent of the enslaved Africans brought to the Colonies came from SE Africa.
LikeLike
You forgot to mention Panamanian born, the lovely,Princess Angela of Liechtenstein.
LikeLike
Abagond: JunaWwilliams parents are Panamanians and not Afro Americans.
LikeLike
Something about this whole thread is at once creepy and sad. Its unfortunate that there are people who feel they have the right to create lists of who is and who is not Afro Latino/a based on very superficial grounds. Rita Marley, born in Cuba, is allegedly not Latina because her family did not live there long enough. Does that mean that a US kid born to Mexican illegal parents is not really American because his family did not live here for generations and only came here for work. Did any of you speak to Rita or research her background to find out how deep SHE believes HER sense of connection to Cuba is? A lot of the converdation on this thread is ridiculous, I’m sad to say and only adds to division. Is an adopted person of Latin ancestry raised in a non-Latin home no longer Latin because he/she was not raised with a cultural connection to other Latinos?
My ancestors came to the US frol Brazil over 75 years ago. I am mixed Black American-Brazilian so I would not count as Afro Latino according to the tests applied on this thread. I look predominately Black, I don’t have a Latino sounding last name and I am 3 generations removed from Brazil. I AM Afro-Latino because I define myself as such and have an afinity for the community and really that’s all that counts.
Afro Latina
LikeLike
I agree. Some of the comments over last names are particularly absurd. People have immigrated from within and outside the general region regardless of Spanish speaking backgrounds. There are Panamanians of Jamaican descent(Juan Williams parents for example), and Cubans of Russian descent. Most of the people assimilate just as immigrants to the U.S. do.
LikeLike
[…] below is cited from Abagond […]
LikeLike
Some of my favorite Afro-latino music/artist:
Number one on my list would have to be the Hip Hop duo, Los Aldeanos made up of El B(Bian) and El Aldeano(Aldo). I guess you could call them “conscious” rappers. They have a lot of political songs about the Cuba’s oppressive government, some about racism, and general life on the island.
You can find all of their songs on Losaldeano (dot) net
LikeLike
From Brazil, I really enjoy Gilberto Gil & Caetano Veloso, 2/4 of the founders of the radical music movement, Tropicalia.
From 2003-08 Gilberto Gil served as Brazil’s Minister of Culture. Lamento Sertanejo, Aquele Abraco, Refazenda, Baba Alapala, Procissoa, and Expresso 2222(his best) are Gilberto’s best hits.
Caetano Veloso is a self-identified mulatto who looks damn near(and probably is) white. I think he’s best songs have to be Sozihno, Voce e Linda, Alegria Alegria, Eu Sou Neguinha, Você não me ensinou a te esquecer, Vera Gata, Sugar Cane Fields, Forever, and O Leaozihno(his best).
LikeLike
I don’t have much of a bio on Colombia’s Choc quib town. All I can say is that their lead female singer is pretty cute and Somos Pacifico & El Bombo have to be my favorite songs from them.
😦 Unfortunately I can’t post any more links. Search for their collaboration version of Somos Pacifico w/ Bogota’s Philarmonic Orchestra.
Seu Jorge- Convite Para Vida, Tive Razo
Novos Bainos-Misterio do Planeta
Buena Vista Social Club-Hasta Siempre
Don Omar
are some other Afro-latin songs/musicians I recommend.
LikeLike
@Abagond,
Please excuse my ignorance here but you have listend Frantz Fanon as an Afro Latino though he is from Martinique and from what I can find has no latino heritage. Can you explain? Again apologies for my lack of knowledge here.
LikeLike
I love this post. My family is from the Caribbean, Jamaica to be exact. I am glad Abagond knows a lot about Latin America and the Caribbean culture enough to post this.
Yes there is more Blacks in Latin America and the Caribbean than Black Americans. My Jamaican born mother told me that too.
”There is no One Drop Rule in Latin countries. So those who are mixed do not see themselves as black and look down on pure blacks. That means colourism runs deeper and yet there is more race mixing”
That is true 100%
I didn’t know Hugo Chavez was Afro Latino. I always assumed that he was Mestizo or Mulatto.
LikeLike
Abagond
As black people, we can’t have it both ways on the issue of racial identity. We complain about x percentage of blacks diluting the race, yet, we’re quick to bestow blackness on folk who are only half-black, Why? I’m trying to understand the contradiction of black people? Afrolatina doesn’t mean anything to me, spanish blacks are still mental slaves. They don’t have a “Black Conscious” like african-americans. In order for spanish blacks to be taken seriously, they must view themselves as african first and spanish second, instead of the other way around. It makes no sense for black folk to hate themselves as much as they do…No Sense! As a race, we need for them to get their ish together. If we’re gonna be free on this planet, all of us have to contribute to the fight…Bottomline!
Tyrone
Free Aquarius
LikeLike
@Laromana
@ColorofLuv
Honestly, i think both of you are full of it as it relates to black folk. Laromana, i assume you’re a spanish sista. It’s easy for you to defend the insanity of Spain and spanish culture in general. Your bias is showing thru mamita. No matter how much you try to convince me and other blacks, your utopian logic is not adding up…Check Yourself! Black people love being black and want to stay black…Bottomline!
ColorofLuv, it’s easy for you to push humanness down the throats of black people, because, you’re not black. As a whiteman, you have nothing to lose when it comes to race-mixing. Whites don’t care if they remain white or not, but whitemen such as yourself will never acknowledge the truth. If you and Laromana had your way, black people wouldn’t exist on this planet. The both of you can’t see your own racism when it’s staring you in the face. Neither of you have genuine respect for the black race. You would rather destroy blackness for the sake of diversity rather than have real black people on this planet. As i’ve said before many times, those who claim to love black people the most are the most racist at the same time…Ditto! ColorofLuv, all black people are not dumb and blind to what’s going on, OK? Just because you spout racial platitudes with impunity on this blog and others doesn’t mean that you’re fooling the people my man. You, and other non-blacks need to get over it. If you’re not happy with your race, that’s your problem. You don’t have the right to force your insecurities on black people…Real Talk! The brainwashing of spanish blacks is very serious. I don’t see anything funny about it. I want you and other parties to stop playing games with our ancestry, Seriously!
Tyrone
MindScape
PS…From time to time, ignorance needs to be put in check so others can see the light.
LikeLike
Laromana cannot post on my blog for some reason, but she emailed me this to post:
laromana says,
-The FACT that IMMEDIATE family members can “APPEAR” to be one “RACE” or another is a major reason “RACE” should be defined by yourACTUAL ANCESTRY and not by some ARBITRARY APPEARANCE BASEDclassification system.
It’s ABSURD to classify IMMEDIATE family members as being DIFFERENT “RACES” when they’re NOT.
-Human relations will truly have EVOLVED when an individual can be classified by their nationality/culture and their ACTUAL ancestry rather than their“PERCEIVED race”.
Tyrone says,
Laromana says,
Hey T.,
Why don’t you learn to READ and SPARE us YOUR IRRATIONAL/IGNORANT/BRAINWASHED/RACIST BS DUMB— AH.
Where do you get off MISREPRESENTING my comments as somehow beingANTI-BLACK when NOTHING I said is even REMOTELY ANTI-BLACK.
YOU’RE the one whose EXTREME IGNORANCE/BACKWARDS MENTALITY “needs to be put in check so others can see the light”.
If you can’t handle the diversity that exists among human beings who are classified as “Black” (eg, Africans/African Americans/Afrolatinos/Afrocaribbeans, etc.), YOU’RE the one who needs to EDUCATE yourself on the TRUE identities of “Black” people and get over YOUR RACISM towards anyone who doesn’t self identify according to YOUR classification system for“Blacks”.
Whether you want to admit it or not, what really distinguishes human beings isn’t (the recently INVENTED concept of) “race” but (the much longer used/logical concept) each human group’s DISTINCT LANGUAGE/CULTURE/CUSTOMS.
LikeLike
Hi everyone!
I’ve been reading almost every topic and this particular thread interested me since I’m a young Cuban female – I consider myself as mulatto like my parents who happen to descend from Chinese, Spanish, Jamaican and from Eastern Africa ppls.
I’d like to share some facts about Cuba.
According to the last population census carried out in Cuba (year 2011) , out of a total of 11million ppl, only 10% are black (not exactly pure since as it commonly happens in US and Latin America, almost everyone is mixed) , 65% whites (descending mainly from Spaniards) and 24,9 % mulatto or biracial.
Link with official estimates:
http://www.cubasi.cu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=319:racismo-cuba-desigualdades-negros-blancos-eeuu
from the Cuban National Statistics Office :
http://www.one.cu/
Indigenous peoples in Cuba were completely exterminated by the Spaniards and Africans brought in to take over sugar cane crops. Slavery in Cuba lasted till 1886! Delay in abolishment compared to other countries in Latin America says it all!
In my personal opinion, Cuban society has always been a racist society. Havana city as the most important city in the country is predominantly white and most of the nation is. Only eastern provinces, the ones closer to Haiti, can talk of a firmer Caribbean influence.
European patterns ruled Cuban perception of both living and culture, until US intervention back in 1899, changed this perspective and ppl started to see after the American dream (Florida is only 90 miles away from Havana City)
I’ve personally experienced racism since I was a little girl. I grew up in a white neighborhood (we were the only black family) and went to schools in which I was minority so I fully relate to every experience on racism I’ve read in this blog (thank you Abagond!)
Although the government did make efforts since 1959 to provide blacks in Cuba with equal opportunities, inclusion, access to high level institutions in terms of education and health (mostly succeeded), racism is pretty deep inside ppls’ mind.
The majority of the Cuban black ppl internalize racism (never heard of this term till I read it here and started to understand my own behavior and my family’s) and on the other hand, Cuban white ppl see racism as something natural……an unimportant issue to fully discuss maybe because it’s uncommon to see racism in Cuba as violent or openly aggressive acts but racist behaviors still exist and the emotional –psychological cost/ long lasting effects resulting from R… can be only understood by those in the experience.
Public and private discussions on this matter are almost inexistent.
LikeLike
It’s incredible how many people still don’t understand that Hispanic is an ethnicity and that you can be black, white, Asian or a blend and still be Hispanic. I learned this when I was small and a lot of afro-cubanos came to seattle. I had never seen Spanish speaking blacks before that point.
LikeLike
your stats about the black population in colombia are wrong, the black population in Colombia make up a 4% and increases to 11% if the mullato population is added; there is more blacks in the States than in Colombia and that is a fact
LikeLike
@ Rick Violette
Thanks. I will double-check that. My numbers include anyone who is at least part black.
LikeLike
I loved all of these post some were inaccurate but we are all here to learn, my fathers family is from San Pedro de Macoris, Republica Dominicana, we are the descendants of black English speaking Caribbean immigrants that arrived in DR to cut sugar cane, we served A go between for the American sugar plantation owners who spoke no Spanish and need cheap labor from people who spoke their language so was born the cocolos. today the cocolos exist in San Pedro, La romana, Boca Chica and puerto plata just to name a few. My ancestors came from St. kitts and Nevis, Antigua, Anguilla and Tortola just to name a few. My Grandfather immigrated back to st kitts the land of his forefathers from DR and there he raised his children while still keeping Spanish strong in an English speaking country, I know my heritage I’m an Afro Dominican/West Indian and have no problems being so, now wether they choose to admit it or not many Dominicans today are a result of self hate and self imposed discrimination, black in DR is not favorable due to 20 years of Hatian rule the Hatian conquest of DR left a rift in between the two countries, white Spanish do icons could not believe they were conquered by French speaking african savages, so they formed a disdain to all blacks and anything black fearing that the black Majority of DR would awaken to this revolution so they put in a place of separation amongst the pure african descent Haitians and the Mulato Dominicans, by telling the Mulatos “eres Castellanos usted no son como ellos negros salvajes” your spanish your not like those wild blacks. When Generalissimo Rafael Leonidas Trujillo took power he started ” El corte / El Blanquimiento” the cutting / the whitening by the encouragement of European immigration to make DR a white society and by killing hundreds of thousands of Hatians and Black Dominicans, and that’s why today do icons refuse to be called black the systematic brainwashing from generation to generation is still in place. Also look at La Samana península where Many escaped African American salves ran to and thier descendants still survive today, not all of my Domicans are black but most of us are, your just asking the wrong ones.. AFRO DOMINICANO HASTA LA TAMBORA….
LikeLike
@Julio McCoy
Thanks for sharing. 🙂
LikeLike
@ Julio McCoy
Great comment. I did not know about La Samana. Thanks.
LikeLike
great article, i am a black costarrican.
LikeLike
“We are Afro-Mexican|”I am Blaxican”
“We are Afro-Mexican|Mitzy Pastrana”
LikeLike
Así somos:Afro Identities in the Mexican Coast:
(http://youtu.be/uEktkb_Cts4)
LikeLike
“A Student Traveling Through Costa Chica Picked Up A Camera to Let Afro-Mexicans Tell Their Story”
http://remezcla.com/culture/a-student-traveling-through-costa-chica-picked-up-a-camera-to-let-afro-mexicans-tell-their-story/
“One young filmmaker and anthropology student of Afro-Salvadoran descent, feeling sympathy for the plight of invisible Afro-Mexicans, took it upon himself to make a very independent documentary exploring Afro-Mexican identity in the coastal communities of La Costa Chica — a region spanning the states of Guerrero and Oaxaca that has the highest concentration of Afro-descendants in Mexico. Titled Así Somos: Afro Identities in the Coast, the short doc admittedly features an extremely raw and unpolished style, but director Andy Amaya does a fairly good job of letting his subjects speak for themselves as they reflect on experiences with discrimination, their Afro-linguistic heritage and labels like ‘negro’ vs. ‘afromexicano’.”
“In the end, we see that popular identity is much blurrier and less defined than clear-cut anthropological labels, with everything from hair texture to skin tone defining who is ‘negro’ versus who is ‘indio.’ And while the individuals he shows are deeply proud of their heritage and unapologetic about their blackness, Amaya points out that constitution of Mexico has yet to acknowledge their existence.”
LikeLike
“Los Afromexicanos”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sov6WrvEHTg)
LikeLike
@Kathy
“It was as if a label were pasted on my forehead, placed there for the benefit of others, to make it easier for them to identify me, saving them the energy to get to know me. I am from Puerto Rico, a real place with its own culture and historical perspective. There is no Hispanica, no Latinica. The words Hispanic and Latina take away from me my place of birth. The title When I was Puerto Rican, then, is a comment on the labeling that turned me into Hispanic and Latina without my knowledge or permission.”
Thanks for the reference. Exactly.
LikeLike
laromana says,
“The FACT that IMMEDIATE family members can “APPEAR” to be one “RACE” or another is a major reason “RACE” should be defined by your ACTUAL ANCESTRY and not by some ARBITRARY APPEARANCE BASED classification system.
It’s ABSURD to classify IMMEDIATE family members as being DIFFERENT “RACES” when they’re NOT.”
Exactly.
LikeLike
Peace…. Viva! Negro Latino! I just want to point some things out….I’m Panamanian of afro- Mexican descent on my fathers side and , angolan american of cape. Verde descent on my mothers side… First off every one is mix in fact north american blacks … are more mix thn Latin American blacks….the main reason is that we are mostly descendants of runaway slaves …. So the only ethnic group we was mainly mixing with …were the indigenous people….in panama we are called cimarrons,in Colombia we are called palinqueros, in Brazil we were called quilombola, and in central America we are called garifunas, in Mexico we are called ladinos, and our children were called lobo, and chino ( black wth Indian admixtures) in truth most afro- latinos have indigenous blood “Zambo” …. But what we are….. is afrolatinos ! Why because our forefathers was capture in Africa… we were the angolan congolese,the cape verdeans, the sao tomeans, the guinea bissauans, the equato guineans, the mozambiquans, we was taken from the canary islands, and the Spanish sahara …. Our blood came from our indigenous mothers ; ….the maya! the inca! the carib! The kuna! The olmecs! The amazonian Indians of Brazil! The tainos of puerto Rico! Our Latin roots came from the black ladino Jew (sepharad) , the black moors, and the gitanos.. and we on occasion took us women… from the daughters of Spain and Portugal….but we were Negro!!!! So thats who we are …. Our fathers were black moorish Jews ! ,and our mothers were Indigenous, and our children ..dances … to the sound of the gitano…. Viva! Negro ladino! Viva! Afro-latino! Viva! Judah! And Shalom! …..
LikeLike
“Racism in Mexico rears its ugly head”
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/05/world/la-fg-mexico-racism-20100705
“Yes, in the 21st century, blackface characters on a major television network.
But this is Mexico, and definitions of racism are complicated and influenced by the country’s own tortured relationship with invading powers and indigenous cultures.”
LikeLike
“Voices: A Univision Host’s Comments, And My Own Painful Memories”
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/voices-rodner-figueroa-our-latino-racism-n323091
LikeLike
Excerpts from article above:
–“We came across my friend’s father, a black Ecuadorian immigrant. The dad sized me up and down and said that I would be a lot prettier if I didn’t have that “African” nose.
What would compel an adult to say that to a young resplendent teen was beyond me. My shock and hurt were physically palpable; my buddy stood up to his father and chastised his ignorance. I cried myself to sleep that night. At 18, I had saved enough money and at 19, I got a nose job.”
–“The kind of racist banter he engaged in on the show is par for the course in many Latino homes and media outlets, though we are loath to admit it. It’s refreshing to see that Univision declared zero tolerance to racism, but more should be done.
Figueroa’s dehumanizing comments brought me back to the moments when I was jokingly told by family members to use a clothespin to make my flat, African nose — a legacy of my black Puerto Rican father — more thin so it could look like one of my sisters, who was born blond, fair and with my mother’s more European features.
It reminded me of the times when I would hear jokes about my oldest sister’s halo of kinky hair. Her nickname was “coil” alluding to her gorgeous spirals. In Spanish kinky hair is referred to as pelo malo, which translates to “bad hair.” ”
–“Her late mom bought her black dolls and talked to her Boricua blackness with orgullo (pride). Neyda grew up living comfortably as Latina and black. It was when she stepped outside her home,however that she said it was not OK. Latino and non-Latino kids on the playground called her the “n” word.
Racial identification in Latino culture is complicated. In fact, affirming my Puerto Rican blackness is not to deny all the other racial and ethnic ancestry that makes up my heritage.
Some of us may not look black but that doesn’t mean we are not.”
LikeLike
“Latinos outgrew Sábado Gigante’s racism and misogyny long before it ended ”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/20/latinos-sabado-gigante-racism-misogyny-lended
“The show’s racism doesn’t end with its mockery of indigenous peoples: one of the Sábado Gigante’s best-known recurring characters is La Cuatro, which is short for La Cuatro Dientes (“Four Teeth”), a reference to the character’s social status – poor people, it’s assumed, can’t afford to fix their teeth. Although the actress who portrays her is light skinned and blonde, La Cuatro is often referred to as being savage and wild. In one episode from the show’s later years, viewers learned that La Cuatro is expecting an inheritance from an uncle in Africa, which is eventually delivered by an “African” character sporting a cheetah-print cloth and disheveled hair held together by a large bone.”
“Sábado Gigante brought Latinos together across continents and generations, it’s true, but its misogyny and racism became its hallmarks even as the Latinos watching outgrew them. It’s probably too much to hope that the hatred for women, people of color and other marginalized people it perpetuated and institutionalized will die when Univision pulls the show’s plug on 19 September 2015 – but I can dream.”
LikeLike
we brazilians dont consider ourselves latinos, you americans think latino is a race shut upo fat warhead go eat you fat hamburges
LikeLike
@ Lord of Mirkwood
Ass is not a moderated word.
LikeLike
you americans think latino is a race shut upo fat warhead go eat you fat hamburges
I’m starving right now. where can I get some of those tasty hamburgs?
LikeLike
Sorry Sergio but mexicans are more disrespectful and rude than African Americans. You guys refuse to use English alot of the times, you are also racist towards us whites and you use up all the social services.
LikeLike
Why is Cape Verde not listed on here?
LikeLike
Is alfonso ribeiro Cape Verdean?
LikeLike
@ Barros
Cape Verde is arguably Afro-Latino. It depends on how you define the word. In the first sentence of the post I defined it as
Cape Verde is not in the New World. It falls on the wrong side of the line I drew.
LikeLike
@abagond
How reliable is this information? It’s so horrible that I find it hard to believe:
https://www.ibtimes.com/blackout-how-argentina-eliminated-africans-its-history-conscience-1289381
In a nutshell: Argentina had a huge black population and eliminated them in the late XIX century
LikeLike