This is the thread where you can never be off topic! Well, almost never. The rest of the Comment Policy applies, though.
Please put YouTube links in parentheses like so:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlTG4yVByY)
Scroll down a bit to see the links to the archived open threads.
A new Open Thread!
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(repost)
Arrrrgh! Why does European-American culture have to be demonized or at least given infimacy (opposite of supremacy, from the polar Latin root)? You all wonder why we try to be other things when being ourselves would mean accept being lesser until proven otherwise. Poc culture isn’t shining and perfect, sure, but it’s perfectly normal and thus worthy of existing.
I know me doing anti-racism won’t fix this because just ONE white i don’t and never will know acting up is enough for poc to righteously hate me, and it wouldn’t remove “my” past. Why is collective responsibility a thing?; I am only able to control myself. “[You] must pay for your ancestors/ cohorts/ people who resemble you because you aren’t suffering.” implies i must suffer to be a real person. Therefore, nobody should complain about some white people overvaluing suffering ever again.
Think i’m full of it? Just ask Kil Ja Kim, Suey Park, Patheos, taotesan, Mack Lyons, Mz. Nikita, Robert Jensen, and Racism Is A White Problem, whose anti-white person ideology is shone and put on a pedestal.
Also, no, i can’t magically relate to the old world. The old world sees me as fake and plastic so i can’t join them. Should i and others create a new culture for over-westernized people (it’s not just whites who are over-westernized). Also, why are these (http://www.bu.edu/isso/files/pdf/AmericanValues.pd) values evil or lesser?
FAQ
—–
No, i don’t want more white supremacy.
No, i don’t think anti-racism should stop. Just the parts that hate me for existing.
No, i don’t think i have it worse. Just bad. This isn’t episodic, it’s all the time, hence why i never complain about other things.
No, i think a kumbaya or blind trust is out of the question.
No, i don’t think poc deserve judgementality either.
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Yes, i am in a depression hit. Nobody has to answer, but can at least somebody lead me to a poc approved ally who still accepts questions?
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Actually please excuse my tone. I am going away for another week to lurk and just find answers on my own.
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@Uriel
I wish you luck.
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Read that only the USA, Myanmar and Liberia do not use Metric in the normal course of business or standard education.
Several of my cousins are schoolteachers in the USA, and they teach the metric system to their students (as a classroom exercise) but even they do not use the metric system in their daily lives and have no feeling for the measurements they represent.
Do people think that everyone should switch to metric or stick to the local system (in the case of the USA, the British imperial system).
In HK, people actually use both (which I also felt was the case in Canada). When people buy flats in HK, the area is expressed in square feet. People still use lbs. and feet and inches in some cases (eg, height and weight of people or stuff that people use). Most other things use metric, but they don’t object to using metric for the stuff they habitually use the imperial system for.
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Seriously, what is my non-colonial culture? I can’t just connect to the struggles and successes of a people i am not.
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@Jefe Unfortunately, most think we should keep our current system.
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Also, how is believing in totems (broad definition of item with spiritual significance) and spirit animals (broad definition of animal spiritually associated to a person).
How can you appropriate a belief. That’s like saying only the Chinese can be atheist.
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Why do you all need collective responsibility? Because you wanna blame people still alive. If i lived 1856-1938, and lived the same as i do now, you’d see me as another human being rather than a cancer cell.
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@Swank
Appearantly, Lindsay has a rule for the comments that says it is forbidden to call him a racist. Another rule is that he has ability to ban you for unexplained personal reasons 🙂 . I had no time to understand what Alpha was actually doing there…
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That’s true.
My focus is on removing the pseudoscience.
My goal is never to convert the person I am arguing with. That’s silly! These people are dyed-in-the-wool and hardcore.
I just leave my posts up and quietly chuckle when someone else happens on the exchange and agrees with me. Your words are in their threads for all time. Maybe you prevented someone from believing something foolish. Maybe you didn’t. Who knows…
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Yes I told him I changed my goal quick. Same as you, I eventually did comment just for visitors to see articulate contradiction and for them not to fall in the trap they can fall in when only HBDers are in the conversation. That’s the most impressive thing to me, on blogs without contradictors, they look serious, they have pseudo-specialist exchanges, their theories are tempting to an ignorant visitor and that’s only when you come poop their party that the whole edifice crumbles. Not only the flaws in their theories but their personal insanity too.
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Look at that private conversation.
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Me:
Hi Robert,
Just a little mail to tell you I’m not asking you to reinstate me this time. I have more important things to do and I don’t find the thing entertaining anymore. It was pleasant being on board for a couple days but intellectually, it was pointless.
Most of you guys are not trying to be objective whatsoever, you have a lot of anger and hatred in you and there is too much psychopathy going on in the comment section.
So I don’t have much to say except goodbye.
PS: it would be great if you make sure everybody on the blog knows I’m banned so that they won’t believe I’m being a coward.
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Me again:
Hi Robert,
First of all, thank you for having made it clear that I have been banned, at least people know why I’m not in the discussions anymore. I hope we can keep on mailing each other occasionally.
I’m not mad at you for being banned but neither do I agree that I deserved it. It’s a good thing that I’m not spending time on the blog anymore because I got kind of addicted although I really had other priorities.
However, if we except my disrespect for author’s rules, I think I did not deserve to be banned as a commenter especially if it’s only for the fact that I called you a racist and said you were doing an ugly job for that reason.
You know in my eyes, “racist” is neutral as a word, it only describes a person or an institution that judges human beings according to their race. This is the dominant opinion in france and it explains why we have no affirmative action, why we don’t collect racial statistics,why we never ask people to identify with a race for official purposes and why we are considering withdrawing the word “race” from our constitution. In our civic culture, racism starts when we simply make mention of race.
With respect to you, your racial outlook on humanity and society makes you a racist even though it does not automatically mean the vicious kind. But when you believe that human beings have inborn race-specific tendencies for certain behaviors and intellectual performances, you are racist no matter what agenda your belief is supporting.
You know, you could write about IQ, violence and everything like that without making any mention of race. All of the behavioral traits you claim to be race-specific are present in people of every race and none has exclusivity over dysfunction or excellence. Then making up biologic theories out of changing, not really accurate averages and supposed under or over-representation of certain groups is clearly racist.
You may not like it, you may not like me saying this is an ugly job but I’ve never seen you bringing up your numbers with accompanying human rights-minded solutions that secure equal treatment for people regardless of their racial background.
I think the meaning of racism would be an interesting topic for your blog.
Coming back to my exclusion, I told you I was not mad at you but I retain a kind of bitter feeling about the double standard that applied to me in my opinion. Look how Alan talks to you, look how Santoculto and Sam are just insane. I’m really not asking you to change your mind but you could try thinking about this a few seconds.
Now that’s off topic, but I’ve been thinking about your claim that West Africans appeared retarded by the way they wrote on your yahoo group. I could not get what gave you that feeling, I went to their forums like nairaland (the most popular forum in Nigeria) and it wasn’t any more moronic than any place on the internet. I hope you’re just not oblivious of the fact that all West Africans are L2 English or French speakers and it can result in writing styles and logic formulation ranging from Santoculto-like to native-like.
Regards,
PS: And by the way, I can’t decently be excluded from the conversation of which I’m the main topic or it’s mere gossiping and it doesn’t honor those who are in.
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Him:
“Hi Robert,
First of all, thank you for having made it clear that I have been banned, at least people know why I’m not in the discussions anymore. I hope we can keep on mailing each other occasionally.
Oh this is nice. I thought you hated me actually.
I’m not mad at you for being banned but neither do I agree that I deserved it. It’s a good thing that I’m not spending time on the blog anymore because I got kind of addicted although I really had other priorities.
However, if we except my disrespect for author’s rules, I think I did not deserve to be banned as a commenter especially if it’s only for the fact that I called you a racist and said you were doing an ugly job for that reason. ”
Yeah but one of the rules on the blog is you can’t call me racist. It’s just not allowed. I mean I try pretty hard to keep any real hard racism out of the site. I am not sure if you know what real ugly racism looks like, but there are a million sites out there like that, and it goes way beyond what I am doing. It’s mostly all about “tone.” It’s based on hate and I try to keep hate out of my site. I’m just interested in exploring racial differences, but I don’t want to do the hate thing.
“You know in my eyes, “racist” is neutral as a word, it only describes a person or an institution that judges human beings according to their race.”
Yeah but I try not to do that and I think it’s immoral.
“This is the dominant opinion in france and it explains why we have no affirmative action, why we don’t collect racial statistics,why we never ask people to identify with a race for official purposes and why we are considering withdrawing the word “race” from our constitution. In our civic culture, racism starts when we simply make mention of race.”
Yeah but that’s a crazy definition we don’t have here.
“With respect to you, your racial outlook on humanity and society makes you a racist even though it does not automatically mean the vicious kind.”
Well yeah then all race realists are racists. Ok but I do not accept that PC version.
“But when you believe that human beings have inborn race-specific tendencies for certain behaviors”
Yes I do believe this.
“and intellectual performances,”
This is a little tougher, but I am not a hard hereditarian at all. Most HBD’ers are hard hereditarian. I am a soft hereditarian, which honestly is mainstream scientific consensus.
Hard hereditarians believe Blacks are doomed to be stupid, violent and criminal as a group due to their genes. I understand why they think that, and I do think this group comes into the world rigged up that way. But I think if we manipulate the environment enough, we can have Blacks that may match Whites on achievement tests and may commit low levels of crime. So my position would be genes are not destiny. I also think Blacks need more help than other races on some things. But if that is true, then we need to give it to them.
“you are racist no matter what agenda your belief is supporting.”
Well that’s just race realism, and I don’t agree that race realism is racism.
“You know, you could write about IQ, violence and everything like that without making any mention of race.”
The thing is though we have a major problem with Black people in the US and probably the whole world really. They do have low intelligence at the moment – that’s a fact. Be that as it may, all sorts of problems are flowing from that, so it needs to be addressed. And Blacks are committing a tremendous amount of violence here in the US to where it is becoming a major societal issue. So Black crime and Black IQ are important issues for society and honestly for Black people themselves.
“All of the behavioral traits you claim to be race-specific are present in people of every race and none has exclusivity over dysfunction or excellence.”
Well sure but Blacks commit 7-8X as much violent crime as Whites. This causes an unbelievable amount of trauma, chaos, problems and frankly racism in our society. First of all, that 7-8X figure jumps out at you and demands an explanation.
The first step to dealing with a problem is to figure out what’s causing it. 7-8X the crime rate is a massive problem. We don’t even know what the reason for it is. All the environmental theories are garbage. Before we can even begin to address this issue, we have to figure out why it is occurring in the first place. We are not even doing that. It’s pitiful.
“Then making up biologic theories out of changing, not really accurate averages and supposed under or over-representation of certain groups is clearly racist.”
Well, at the moment I am backtracking on my testosterone theory. I am not really sure if Blacks have higher testosterone than other groups. I don’t think that is completely proven now. It seemed like a good theory though.
Let’s get real here. Blacks are vastly more violent and criminal than Whites. This is a massive issue and after thinking about it for years, I know there is biology involved. So I am trying to figure out the biology.
I wasn’t making up anything, and you guys were very outrageously playing games with numbers yourselves.
“You may not like it, you may not like me saying this is an ugly job but I’ve never seen you bringing up your numbers with accompanying human rights-minded solutions that secure equal treatment for people regardless of their racial background.”
I do not understand what you are talking about. Liberal Race Realism tries to get to the bottom of these problems so we can possibly figure out a way to ameliorate them. The purpose of LRR is to help Black people try to overcome their serious problems. The present approach is not working. LRR is pro-Black.
“I think the meaning of racism would be an interesting topic for your blog.
Coming back to my exclusion, I told you I was not mad at you but I retain a kind of bitter feeling about the double standard that applied to me in my opinion. Look how Alan talks to you,”
Yeah I let him get away with a lot of shit. He is an old friend of mine though. I was watching him the whole time and waiting for him to fuck up but he read the comments rules well and he kept skirting the ban. I don’t even think you read the rules. Did you even read the rules? I was waiting for Alan to call me a racist, and then I might ban him. But you see, we were friends going way back so I sort of gave him a break on that.
“look how Santoculto and Sam are just insane.”
You got warned once not to call me racist though. You just seemed out of control. It’s like you knew what you were not supposed to do but you just could not control yourself.
“I’m really not asking you to change your mind but you could try thinking about this a few seconds.
Now that’s off topic, but I’ve been thinking about your claim that West Africans appeared retarded by the way they wrote on your yahoo group. I could not get what gave you that feeling, I went to their forums like nairaland (the most popular forum in Nigeria) and it wasn’t any more moronic than any place on the internet.”
The way they write. They can’t even write a coherent sentence in English, and it’s supposedly their native language. If you read their writing, it looks like it was written by a retarded person.
“I hope you’re just not oblivious of the fact that all West Africans are L2 English”
English is pretty much a native language in Nigeria. I deal with L2 English speakers all the time, and most of them do not appear retarded.
Also I called up the Ghanaian Embassy in Los Angeles once and I got some African man. I didn’t have the faintest idea what he was talking about and once again, I got the impression that he was “retarded.”
“or French speakers and it can result in writing styles and logic formulation ranging from Santoculto-like to native-like.”
Santoculto doesn’t appear retarded when he writes.
This group has repeatedly received IQ test scores in the 60’s all the way up into the past two decades. No other group except Gypsies would ever get a score in the 60’s. There’s something wrong with them.
Regards,
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Me:
No, in Africa, official languages are L1 language for les than 1% of the population. Anyway, I’ve never seen West Africans writing or speaking any language in a retarded way. I think it has a lot to do with your own biases.
“The way they write. They can’t even write a coherent sentence in English, and it’s supposedly their native language. If you read their writing, it looks like it was written by a retarded person.”
Yoruba, Igbo and Hausa are the main languages of Nigeria, in addition to other minor languages, 99% of Nigerians speak an indigenous language as their first language. If you go on the streets in Africa, you hear no French or no English at all, only local languages are spoken in everyday life.
I would be pleased if you find me some typical retarded West African retarded writing on that forum: http://www.nairaland.com/
“This group has repeatedly received IQ test scores in the 60’s all the way up into the past two decades. No other group except Gypsies would ever get a score in the 60’s. There’s something wrong with them.”
I think you don’t understand what Wicherts et al. did, their studies consisted in collecting all of the existing data before sorting them to get representative numbers. And this is in all the existing studies that we find an average in the 80s, which is close to Wicherts’ estimate made from the studies he deemed representative. Only Lynn’s studies appear abnormal because he takes old data, disabled or other unrepresentative samples and his estimates rely only on a verry small minority of samples who scored in the 60s. And even with that, he only manages to get estimates in the 70s because he does not wieight averages and applies the Flynn effect correction to make seem like a study from the 1960s could be representative of today’s population. Wicherts does the actualization thing and I don’t agree either, it’s a pure matter of chronological unrepresentativeness. Numbers must be reported as they were measured and used, in the way their authors found there was nothing wrong with these people. Should we correct Einstein’s IQ for the Flynn effect ? Come on…
You know, Europe has been the colonial master of Africa for more than half a century. If your beliefs were backed by something true, Scientific racism would have emerged in the colonial administrative circles and no one would ever have spent money trying to and achieving to train illiterate tribesmen into physicians and attorneys.
“All the environmental theories are garbage.”
No, they are valid, they were found by anthropologues and sociologues, validated worldwide from direct observation, interviews and other serious social sciences methods. These are not speculations. It’s the result of hundreds of people across the world describing their feelings and their reactions regarding their environment. Then all that work is distorted by folk interpretation and ideological recuperation that lead to over-simplification. But when you read the social science papers and books, it all makes sense. This is why I will never agree with you that what you call soft-hereditarianism is not marginal in explaining group differences. It is, besides of being racist and genocidally intended.
“Well that’s just race realism, and I don’t agree that race realism is racism.”
Race realism is racism since we now know from molecular genetics that race does not corresponds to an identifiable genetic reality, it only loosely clusters with a small fraction of human genetic variation. So keeping on claiming that race is a meaningful genetic reality is just not refusing to accept what science says about it.
“and you guys were very outrageously playing games with numbers yourselves.”
No.
“LRR is pro-Black.”
I don’t think so, don’t need to go in the ghettos of the USA or in the slums of Dakar to find the persons you harm. You’re harming people like me who would not be able to advance if more people or myself thought that because I’m black, I can’t do just as well as other races, that I have to struggle against my inferior nature to be respectable and that my genes can take over at any moment to turn me into a thug. You’re not helping. The only thing I understand from what you write is that for our own well being, us black people should stop existing.
I agree I’m not serious with the rules, I did not read them and honestly, you can’t write racist post and forbid people to call you a racist ! That makes no sense.
“Oh this is nice. I thought you hated me actually.”
I’m not a child you know.
Me, still:
I have an intersting case for you. You probably know that Australia started as penal colony, it was basically the place where Victorian Britain threw her human garbage. Then why doesn’t Australia have a more dysfuctional white British population than Britain and others of her offshoots ?
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http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/
You might like that blog.
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Him:
“No, in Africa, official languages are L1 language for les than 1% of the population. Anyway, I’ve never seen West Africans writing or speaking any language in a retarded way. I think it has a lot to do with your own biases.”
I deal with English L2 speakers all the time and they almost never appear retarded. However, I did see an Aborigine once writing on the web and I was struck by how similar his writing was to the Nigerians. And he also appeared retarded.
“”The way they write. They can’t even write a coherent sentence in English, and it’s supposedly their native language. If you read their writing, it looks like it was written by a retarded person.”
Yoruba, Igbo and Hausa are the main languages of Nigeria, in addition to other minor languages, 99% of Nigerians speak an indigenous language as their first language. If you go on the streets in Africa, you hear no French or no English at all, only local languages are spoken in everyday life.”
They all speak something called Nigerian Pidgin English. Most everyone in Lagos speaks this language. English is the official language of the country for business, government, etc. There are many English language papers. There is English language TV. Bottom line, they all spoke English.
“I would be pleased if you find me some typical retarded West African retarded writing on that forum: http://www.nairaland.com/
“This group has repeatedly received IQ test scores in the 60’s all the way up into the past two decades. No other group except Gypsies would ever get a score in the 60’s. There’s something wrong with them.”
I think you don’t understand what Wicherts et al. did, their studies consisted in collecting all of the existing data before sorting them to get representative numbers.”
This is crazy! He threw out all the tests that scored in the 60’s! Why did he do that? Listen let me tell you something. You will never test any non-Black population on Earth with any IQ testing, no matter how lousy the study was, that will ever end up with a score in the 60’s. I can show you dozens of African tests with scores in the 60’s. Even if they were crappy tests, which is dubious, they should not have been scoring in the 60’s! Show men anywhere else on Earth where IQ tests regularly come up with scores in the 60’s. I dare you! Except for Aborigines, Papuans and Africans.
Do you realize that many of those scores in the 60’s were recorded in the 1990’s!? Those were bad tests? They were all reported in peer reviewed journals. If they were so scientifically shitty, how did they get past peer review?!
“And this is in all the existing studies that we find an average in the 80s, which is close to Wicherts’ estimate made from the studies he deemed representative. Only Lynn’s studies appear abnormal because he takes old data,”
No! I can show you MANY African scores in the 60’s from the 1990’s and 2000’s! Unrepresentative samples?! It doesn’t matter how unrepresentative it is. An unrepresentative sample anywhere else on Earth would never get a score in the 60’s.
“disabled or other unrepresentative samples and his estimates rely only on a verry small minority of samples who scored in the 60s.”
There is a recent article out that compares West African PISA and other achievement test scores and converts them into IQ scores by a well validated method. Those scores are from the past few years. A few West African countries were studied and they all had PISA IQ scores in the 60’s! They are still scoring in the 60’s to this day!
Very small minority?! I can show you dozens of tests with scores in the 60’s from very recently too. There should not have been ONE score in the 60’s, ever.
“And even with that, he only manages to get estimates in the 70s”
I am looking at Lynn’s data now and he is getting a lot of national scores in the 60’s. And I can see the tests he used also. From peer reviewed journals.
“because he does not weight averages and applies the Flynn effect correction to make seem like a study from the 1960s could be representative of today’s population.”
You have to do that. You have to take scores from all the eras. Unless the scores are rising, which does not appear to be the case.
“Wicherts does the actualization thing and I don’t agree either, it’s a pure matter of chronological unrepresentativeness. Numbers must be reported as they were measured and used, in the way their authors found there was nothing wrong with these people. Should we correct Einstein’s IQ for the Flynn effect ? Come on…
You know, Europe has been the colonial master of Africa for more than half a century. If your beliefs were backed by something true, Scientific racism would have emerged in the colonial administrative circles and no one would ever have spent money trying to and achieving to train illiterate tribesmen into physicians and attorneys.”
Well Africans were scoring in the 60’s during the colonial era also.
“”All the environmental theories are garbage.”
No, they are valid, they were found by anthropologues and sociologues, validated worldwide from direct observation, interviews and other serious social sciences methods. These are not speculations. It’s the result of hundreds of people across the world describing their feelings and their reactions regarding their environment.”
They are utter nonsense. There is no evidence that the African environment is making these people score in the 60’s.
“Then all that work is distorted by folk interpretation and ideological recuperation that lead to over-simplification. But when you read the social science papers and books, it all makes sense. This is why I will never agree with you that what you call soft-hereditarianism is not marginal in explaining group differences.”
The problem is that soft hereditarianism is consensus in science for individual differences in IQ and personality. Although you are correct that there is no consensus that say the Black – White IQ gap is due to genes, environment, or both. No one knows, and science is battling this question out in the journals now. Both hard hereditarianism and hard environmentalism are rejected by scientific consensus at the moment.
“It is, besides of being racist and genocidally intended.
“Well that’s just race realism, and I don’t agree that race realism is racism.”
Race realism is racism since we now know from molecular genetics that race does not corresponds to an identifiable genetic reality, it only loosely clusters with a small fraction of human genetic variation.”
That’s utter nonsense. I have taught whole classes full of different races and they behave in a completely different manner. You get the feeling that the differences are biological.
“So keeping on claiming that race is a meaningful genetic reality is just refusing to accept what science says about it.”
It is and science has shown this.
“”and you guys were very outrageously playing games with numbers yourselves.”
No.
“LRR is pro-Black.”
I don’t think so, don’t need to go in the ghettos of the USA or in the slums of Dakar to find the persons you harm. You’re harming people like me who would not be able to advance if more people or myself thought that because I’m black, I can’t do just as well as other races,”
LRR does not argue this.
“that I have to struggle against my inferior nature to be respectable”
LRR does not argue this.
“and that my genes can take over at any moment to turn me into a thug.”
LRR does not argue this.
“You’re not helping. The only thing I understand from what you write is that for our own well being, we black people should stop existing.”
They are not going to stop existing, we have to learn to deal with them.
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I don’t know what to say. I agree. The only real opposition is irrational and uninformed.
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Me:
Tell me, did you ever read Wicherts et al. at all ?
If not, you can find all his work here and you can also see Lynn’s answers:
https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=wicherts+IQ&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5
“They all speak something called Nigerian Pidgin English. Most everyone in Lagos speaks this language. English is the official language of the country for business, government, etc. There are many English language papers. There is English language TV. Bottom line, they all spoke English.”
The verry definition of a pidgin is that contrary to creole, it is a second language, a popular lingua franca used by people who have different mother-tongues.
You won’t have me on this one, I have spent a lot of time in Africa and you can’t do anything there without basics in the dominant native language of the place you go to. And by the way, I’m still waiting for exemples of retarded speech we can discuss.
“You have to do that. You have to take scores from all the eras. Unless the scores are rising, which does not appear to be the case. ”
They do, recently a huge sample in Kenya achieved scores in the 90s up from the 70s some decades ago.
“They are utter nonsense. There is no evidence that the African environment is making these people score in the 60’s.”
I was not even talking about IQ scores, I was talking about societal issues in general which have never been explained by IQ or genes since their IQs were never found to be abnormal.
However, if you believe that malaria, other tropical diseases, lead poisoning, starvation, or little intellectual stimulation have not been shown to depress test performance, you clearly get it wrong. Also, if you believe IQ tests are made in the same conditions in Africa, if you think that these tests are all culture fair, you clearly get it wrong. Scores in the 60s – 70s are as common in Africa, as in Latin America, South Asia and East Asia from a few studies I’ve seen searching on google scholar. Just to say I could demonstrate the inferiority of any race in the world with Lynn-like methods.
“The problem is that soft hereditarianism is consensus in science for individual differences in IQ and personality. Although you are correct that there is no consensus that say the Black – White IQ gap is due to genes, environment, or both.”
Well, you got it, now you just have to accept that the view that genes cause IQ gaps is marginal and that the consensus now regarding group differences is that 100% of the available evidence is environmental in nature and that what we now know about the genetics of race and the genetics of intelligence makes it very unlikely for the gaps to be at least part genetic in nature. Especially when IQ is not even an absolute value reflecting an identified biologic reality.
“That’s utter nonsense. I have taught whole classes full of different races and they behave in a completely different manner. You get the feeling that the differences are biological.”
And they can’t be cultural ? No ? From what I know about the way blacks behave in US schools, I can tell you nothing like that could be told about blacks in Africa or France and other European countries. So maybe you just got the worst of the African gene pool or I don’t know but you can’t say black americans are representatives of the black race.
“It is and science has shown this.”
Which science ? Psychology ? HBD ?
“They are not going to stop existing, we have to learn to deal with them.”
And how does polite scientific racism plan to deal with them ?
See, as you give irrefutable scientific value to your life experience, I will tell you a little more about mine. Not my life as a child and teenager in an artificial white controlled family environment but my life as an independent youg black adult that according to some theories you defend would have had me reverting to my dysfuctionnal genetic nature.
Recently I’ve moved to a new home that I bought since I hadn’t much money to borrow and my employment status in the near future allowed me to contract a cheap short-term loan. The development I moved in is one of the verry few American-like suburbs in the outskirts of Nantes in the west of France.
The first thing I must tell you is that house-hunting while youg, black and male never ever made me feel I had any disadvantage to acquire a home in this highly prized environment, not for one second did my real estate broker made me feel that I would not belong here. And that’s for a good reason, I come across as many black folks here in my neighborhood as I would in the inner city (which is not the ghetto in France but the place where the middle and the upper class live) . These black folks are no different from me or my white neighbors. From my white neighbors, I recieved a warm welcome and to be honest, I never expected them to treat me any other way.
Here in France, those who are stuck in the ghettos are Muslims of any race. I know Rushton said Islam is a genetic disorder and I know Muslims have integration issues in France even though we are an overwhelmingly open-minded non-prejudiced people. Actually the French are difference-loving people, I would not have enjoyed my life so much I was a regular white guy in my environment. Being black made me the cool guy every boys wanted to hang out with and the guy every girls wanted to date.
My parents adopted me and my sisters though they could have children on their own, it just happens that international adoptions are the big thing in the French upper class. It even led to an human trafficking scandal a couple years ago with around 40 Chadian children (West Africans) being kidnapped for adoption in France. So it has clearly reached obsessional levels.
So you have to realise that in a country like France, other Mainland European countries and even Britain, the stereotypes of racial differences do not even exist or are just so trivial that we all enjoy making fun of them since we all know we never meet people who fit their group’s stereotypes. Isn’t there a small part of the Liberal you who thinks that hereditarianism comes from some people’s denial of the very particular American race culture and its consequences on society ?
And please, I confessed I had no respect for the rules but don’t put it on the fact that I’m black. I did it the Latin way, the French way, you know we are rebellious and arrogant people, the stereotype is really not that far from the truth. Here we take a lot of freedom with rules and tend to do things as we please. French culture is a White Latin one though.
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wow I’m sorry for the occupation
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Me:
Hi Robert,
I’m still following the blog and I would have a lot to comment on your last posts. But before we get to that, I have to tell you I’m quite disappointed by the way you gave up on our last conversation, it was shady in my opinion. Ok, that’s an ad hominem attack and on this matter, I hope panda has been blanned or recieved a serious warning for calling you retarded. He wouldn’t be that much of a loss, he’s stupid and insane.
So you decided to take a look at the existing examples of closed black/white IQ gaps. Oh, I know you try to find some admixture to explain it but you know it has little coherence, that African admixture in Bahamians and Bermudians is still to high for them to mach Whites on IQ though their environment still lags behind in many aspects. Just for your information, 20-25% of Bahamians are recent immigrants from Haïti and due to severe brain drain, their “unrepresentative elite samples” have fled overseas. So the Bahamas, and to a lesser extent Bermuda invalidate the genetic hypothesis for the IQ gaps. I tell you scientifically, it really invalidates any kind of race-based hereditarianism, science is true everywhere in every place and unconvenient counter-exemples can’t be ignored.
I don’t know where you are with your hereditarian thoughts but as a liberal, you should never have had these leanings. As a commenter said, these small islands have governments that care for the masses and masses that identify with the institutions, hence there is common commitment to social advancement. These Islands are nothing like the super-environments that you think are the only one able to lift blacks up from chronic stupidity (as you put it, I know myself that blacks are not stupid at all), they hardly match southern Europe on many variables.
The whole thing of hereditarianism is protecting unfair privileges, it’s saying everyone deserves what they get and only have their genes to blame. That’s crazy and disgusting. So if we apply this rule, Robert Mugabe, whose military genius probably gives him a place at the best end of the bell curve is completely justified in stealing the moronic Zimbabwean population, which can only blame its fate on its supposedly moronic IQ. You know that good leaders can do anything out of any people and that social changes come from the top, not the bottom. Come on… Meritocray is a myth, innate racial unequality as well and I’m one of the better placed person to confirm both previous statements.
Since you told me the controversy about the origins of racial differentials on IQ test performance was still intense, I made my own research on google scholar to see what recent papers(since 2010) told about this and to my surprise, the debate is even more dead and the nature side has been completely dismissed now in 2015, only what remains of the pioneer fund holds on to hereditarianism.
https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=race+intelligence&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2010&as_yhi=
https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=race+IQ&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2010
https://scholar.google.fr/scholar?q=race+brain+structure&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=2010
You know, I don’t like your attitude of explaining what you don’t understand by other’s dysfunction. If you don’t understand, the issue is that you don’t understand and not that others are dysfuctional. You write like you have universal eyes, like your life has led you to discover universal truths although you actually have little keys to understand the world and especially society.
You know, the only thing that could make people look seriously at hereditarianism is if we felt like every social science finding had been proven wrong, if every thing that had been attempted had failed, if each group’s situation appeared desperately stable and immune to any kind of intervention, if we had found that Asians could excell effortlessly while blacks could not learn whatever the level of effort they put. If all of that had been seen, well yes, hereditarianism would have become the most obvious explanation and each group would accept its genetic fate resiliently.
I hope I can get a reaction this time,
Regards,
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He’s WRONG about the “soft heredetarianism consensus” nonsense.
Here is the progression:
HBDer takes hardline stance, gets crushed, and then appeals to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation.
They do this by arguing that heritability = genetic and therefore heritability of IQ being 50% = IQ is 50% genetic, which is WRONG.
There is NO EVIDENCE of ANY genetic effect that is not also consistent with the EXACT OPPOSITE — i.e. “environmental” — effect. NO GENE for behavior or “IQ” in the normal range has been identified, but SEVERAL environmental factors have been identified that affect IQ.
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Him:
“Hi Robert,
I’m still following the blog and I would have a lot to comment on your last posts. But before we get to that, I have to tell you I’m quite disappointed by the way you gave up on our last conversation, it was shady in my opinion. Ok, that’s an ad hominem attack and on this matter, I hope panda has been blanned or recieved a serious warning for calling you retarded. He wouldn’t be that much of a loss, he’s stupid and insane.”
He already got warned. He is Chinese. They can control themselves pretty well.
“So you decided to take a look at the existing examples of closed black/white IQ gaps. Oh, I know you try to find some admixture to explain it but you know it has little coherence, that African admixture in Bahamians and Bermudians is still to high for them to mach Whites on IQ though their environment still lags behind in many aspects.”
Oh this is 100% correct. I am having a very hard time understanding why you keep pegging me as a hard HBD’er. How many times do I have to tell you that I am a soft HBD’er and soft nurturist. It does not seem to get through to you.
But you are correct and I went into that on one of my posts. I believe with White admixture, the Bahamians should be scoring maybe 92 on IQ if HBD were correct. If this latest test is an IQ test, not an achievement test (I am choosing to see it as IQ), then they closed the gap by 8 points not accounted for by HBD. This invalidates strong HBD, of course.
“Just for your information, 20-25% of Bahamians are recent immigrants from Haïti and due to severe brain drain, their “unrepresentative elite samples” have fled overseas.”
29% are recent immigrants from elsewhere in the Caribbean, probably not that high from Haiti alone.
“So the Bahamas, and to a lesser extent Bermuda invalidate the genetic hypothesis for the IQ gaps.”
The group in the Bahamas is a 13% White group that is scoring 93 on IQ tests. I have no idea where HBD would put them. 75? 80? Who knows. Yes this is correct, by HBD they should be below US Blacks.
“I tell you scientifically, it really invalidates any kind of race-based hereditarianism,”
Absolutely not. The world over Blacks consistently have low IQ. This is compatible with soft HBD and soft nurturist as I show.
“science is true everywhere in every place and inconvenient counter-examples can’t be ignored.”
The problem is the race-HBD theory of intelligence has a TON of great evidence for it.
“I don’t know where you are with your hereditarian thoughts but as a liberal, you should never have had these leanings.”
I guess I am not a liberal anymore? Right? My mother is a liberal Democrat, and she has long believed in genetics. She thinks Blacks are different biologically and innately in intelligence.
“As a commenter said, these small islands have governments that care for the masses and masses that identify with the institutions, hence there is common commitment to social advancement.”
Sure maybe.
“These Islands are nothing like the super-environments that you think are the only one able to lift blacks up from chronic stupidity (as you put it, I know myself that blacks are not stupid at all), they hardly match southern Europe on many variables. ”
I haven’t the faintest idea but the governments and enviornments on which Whites blithely score 100 IQ, Jews 113 IQ and Asians 105 IQ can be just as shitty as the ones Blacks live in. Put a Jew, an Asian and a White in some environment where Blacks get 65-75 IQ consistently. Even in that horrible environment, the White will peg in at 100, the Jew at 113 and the Asian at 105. Whites hardly need a decent environment at all for their full genetic IQ to flower.
White genetic IQ = 100?
Jewish genetic IQ = 113?
Asian genetic IQ = 105?
Black genetic IQ = 75-85
Now if you put all four groups in a really shitty environment of the type that supposedly causes the 75-85 IQ in Blacks, all of the other groups will simply meet their genetic IQ anyway. School performance may lag a bit in Whites due to poverty.
Blacks consistently create shitty environments for themselves for biological reasons. In the normal shitty Black environment, Blacks reach their genetic IQ only. If you want those 75-85 IQ Blacks to move towards 100 IQ, you are going to have to jazz up the environment a lot more than what is required for the others.
Bahamian and Bermudian Blacks have pretty high incomes I believe. This might be jacking them up right there.
“The whole thing of hereditarianism is protecting unfair privileges, it’s saying everyone deserves what they get and only have their genes to blame.”
Well it also says it’s not their fault, so they need help. I happen to think Blacks need a lot of help and it’s up to we liberal morons to give to these fucking ingrates like you no matter how much you hate us for trying to help you.
Actually the nurturist argument blames Blacks much more. You can’t help your genes. But if Blacks had the same genes as everyone else and continued to fuck up like they do, I might say the Hell with em, let em burn. Because all of their fuckups would be utterly willful. Bizarrely, this is scenario you and Swank push for Blacks. Their genes are just fine! Well then why do they fuck up? Obviously because they suck, they are immoral, they no good, etc.
The hereditarian theory is much more compassionate because it does not blame Blacks!
“That’s crazy and disgusting. So if we apply this rule, Robert Mugabe, whose military genius probably gives him a place at the best end of the bell curve is completely justified in stealing the moronic Zimbabwean population, which can only blame its fate on its supposedly moronic IQ.”
Nope I do not believe in Social Darwinism. I am a socialist. We don’t agree that just because you got lucky in the gene lottery, you get to be evil. And dumb people do not deserve to be fucked over.
“You know that good leaders can do anything out of any people and that social changes come from the top, not the bottom. Come on… Meritocracy is a myth,”
Oh no! How is it you get to be an attorney? Is your IQ 85?
“innate racial inequality as well and I’m one of the better placed person to confirm both previous statements.
Since you told me the controversy about the origins of racial differentials on IQ test performance was still intense, I made my own research on google scholar to see what recent papers(since 2010) told about this and to my surprise, the debate is even more dead and the nature side has been completely dismissed now in 2015, only what remains of the pioneer fund holds on to hereditarianism.”
HARD hereditarianism yes. And in the journals it is 100% fact that the hard hereditarians and hard nurturists continue to go at it like crazy. You’re not keeping up!
https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/discussion-on-the-g-factor-of-international-cognitive-ability-comparisons-the-homogeneity-of-results-in-pisa-timss-pirls-and-iq-tests-across-nations-by-heiner-rindermann/
See that? That’s from only a few years ago. Everyone commenting is at the top of their field in the study of intelligence.
The debate ain’t over!
You really tell a ton of lies, you know that? You will make a great attorney.
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Me (final mail in the conversation)
“He already got warned. He is Chinese. They can control themselves pretty well.”
Yet he can’t control his “LOLs”, “ROFLs” or refering to himself with the third person. And I think it must be so difficult keeping calm on a blog that builds theory about you being a member of the master race. I’m so sympathetic now that I understand the load of agression he faces…
“I am having a very hard time understanding why you keep pegging me as a hard HBD’er”
There is no soft or hard scientific racism that makes sense to me. These hard/soft distinctions only make sense with religion and ideology. There is soft socialism, hard islamism, soft feminism, hard capitalism but no soft heliocentrism, hard mathematic theorems or soft genetics. Scientific content doesn’t change according to the level of politeness that scientists apply to themselves. You are just a polite scientific racist, acknowledging that pushing harder HBD will make you look more ugly and delusional.
“29% are recent immigrants from elsewhere in the Caribbean, probably not that high from Haiti alone.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Bahamian
“I guess I am not a liberal anymore? Right? My mother is a liberal Democrat, and she has long believed in genetics. She thinks Blacks are different biologically and innately in intelligence.”
How am I supposed to care about your mother ? Do you need to know what my parents and grandparents think about blacks ?
“I haven’t the faintest idea but the governments and enviornments on which Whites blithely score 100 IQ, Jews 113 IQ and Asians 105 IQ can be just as shitty as the ones Blacks live in ”
Tell me about one governement which is totally commited to improving standards for its black citizens, and tell me about one government where blacks think from the bottom of their hearts that government is on their side ? Europe comes close to that and blacks there do quite well, much better than our white post-industrial underclass. You know we have that kind of white people in europe that do not honor the white race ?
And look at the Rednecks and Afrikaners, how mediocre they stay on average after decades of institutionalized privilege. There is something wrong with these people, but I know they can be wrong in your eyes since they are white. Being not well enough, or too good to be black is a black privilege from what I know about you.
“Put a Jew, an Asian and a White in some environment where Blacks get 65-75 IQ consistently. Even in that horrible environment, the White will peg in at 100, the Jew at 113 and the Asian at 105. Whites hardly need a decent environment at all for their full genetic IQ to flower.”
I will ignore the part on which you lie about blacks consistently scoring 65-75, I did enough to prove it was wrong, then if you can’t or don’t want to realise, I won’t force myself. But anyway, what you say is pure speculation, these equalized environments do not exist naturally, some adoption and orphanage studies have shown blacks scoring the same or better than other races and in the Cayman Islands, IQs are around 75 for every race and blacks even do slightly better than whites.
“Blacks consistently create shitty environments for themselves for biological reasons.”
Your statement is twice wrong. First, you say blacks consistently create shitty environments which is not even true, some Caribbean countries and some African countries are not that bad but more importantly, rural life in Africa is far from shitty, it is harmonious, convivial and very enjoyable inspite of its technological remoteness. Second, there is no proof that social issues are biologic, the examples we are discussing dismiss this hypothesis and so does every social or biologic science.
“Bahamian and Bermudian Blacks have pretty high incomes I believe. This might be jacking them up right there.”
Incomes there are low, the financial sector artificially boosts up GDP figures but the bulk employment is in tourism, public sector and agriculture. There is little opportunity for professional carreers and few blacks reach upper-middle class standards of living there. They just seem to have enough of what allows any human being to thrive intellectually. And non-black genes do not seem to be part of the list.
“I happen to think Blacks need a lot of help and it’s up to we liberal morons to give to these fucking ingrates like you no matter how much you hate us for trying to help you.”
Please, I don’t need help from you or any social program. I know how to be grateful to those I really have to thank. And I hate nobody, sorry, hate is for the mentally impaired.
“The hereditarian theory is much more compassionate because it does not blame Blacks!”
Blacks, like any human beings need everything but compassion. In the US, they need to be held accountable for not raising their children, in Africa, they need to be held accountable for corruption and ethnic politics. There are many things blacks need to blame themselves for, but not their genes that help them surviving malaria, resisting sunburn or whatnot. It would be terrible if any race was given any privilege for doing whatever due to a genetic excuse. No one would accept that, especially in the HBD sphere whose solution is anihilation.
“See that? That’s from only a few years ago. Everyone commenting is at the top of their field in the study of intelligence.”
Then you must deal with this reality:
Click to access wicherts2010IQAFR.pdf
Predicted IQ from scholastic achievement scores
Nigeria: 89.5/87.1
Ghana: 68.8/71.8
Swaziland: 90.2
Mozambique: 83.9
Botswana: 81.8/80.5
South Africa: 80.5/72.7/67.4/74.4
Zimbabwe: 84.6
Deal with the numbers, and also deal with their diversity which indicates nothing like a racial phenotype but national level environmental particularisms.
“Oh no! How is it you get to be an attorney? Is your IQ 85?”
So you think industrialization, capitalism, and everything that leads to a modern society result from grassroot initiatives, that an anarchist governement would be perfectly workable, that North Korea’s regime has no effect whatsoever on the state of its people, that the same goes for African countries. My IQ has been tested when I had to skip a grade, I have the humility of not telling it to you.
“You really tell a ton of lies, you know that? You will make a great attorney.”
That attorneys are liars is a folk belief, we just make the best use of the reality. You know, we work with rules, man-made rules in a scientific-like argumentation process, we have strict rules to determine the legal scientific-like acceptability of any evidence we bring to a court and in a a regime of rule of law, we can’t get away with flaws in our argmumentary. More importantly, we need to understand our opponent’s strategy as much as we must make our own perfect. Here, if we we were on trial about the genetic inferiority of the black race, I would have won the case, and the scientific reality has won the case for long on this topic.
And by the way, I suppose that you don’t have any retarded typical Nigerian writing to show me, neither do you have any idea of what happened with Australian’s social scum ancestors ?
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@Swank
Yes, he’s wrong all along.
their limited cognitive function makes them believe that:
1) heritability = genetics
2) genetics = race
So from the speculated 50-80% heritability of IQ, they come to the conclusion that IQ gaps are 50-80% genetic in origin.
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And they go over their own conclusion, they claim that there is scientific consensus or debate about that when the debate is actually non-existant and much less is the consensus. Lindsay is an old man. I’m 23, when I think something is “so 2011”, it’s like prehistoric to me. But for him, non-replicated findings from the 90s are up to date information.
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I’m only just starting to understand how terrible it must feel to be black in the US. I went there twice, totally ignorant. As a tourist, I even thought blacks were not doing that bad at all, I found them not stereotypical like in the movies or music videos. I just saw the homeless who where disproportionately black but I knew that was what should be excepted from the US’s history and society. It’s only when I stayed in Williamsburg in NYC and when I visited a friend at the University of Chicago that I saw some bits of the ghetto. But I clearly understand why the average HBDer or immigrant believes that blacks’ environment nearly matches that of whites. I had to read more to understand better.
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HBD is a good springboard into ideology and realizing how large a role it plays in daily life. Economics is mostly ideology, too.
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Yes, in the case of HBD, ideology is even more important since the whole field would be useless without the genocidal agenda it supports. you only have douchebags like lindsay who say “I demonstrate black’s innate inferiority for their own well being”.
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@ Abagond
@ Mbeti
I enjoy reading your comments.
Abagond, the suggestion thread is very long and I could not download it.
One of the projects I am working on is called Black Icons.
It is a black and white collage of Black People (from around the world) whom I love, admire, or am inspired by or whose work I appreciate. Essentially, it pays homage to my ancestors, the people for fought for my freedom, exemplars of iron courage. People who have made my (our) world a better place. Initially it was big canvas, now it requires a large wall!
A suggestion for a post would be a “wall” where commenters could post their Icons, whether they be scientists, freedom fighters, poets, musicians, writers, artists, sportspeople, thinkers, inventors, ordinary men or women, etc. They could also name the category the person is famous for and why they love and/ or admire them. They could put up links, photographs, you tube videos, references.
After a while, when the thread has grown, you could, from all the names do a Top Ten: greatest artists of all time, greatest or most beloved Freedom Fighters, sportspeople, etc.
For example, a sampling of my list (in no special order) would be :
1Steve Biko
2Haile Gerima
3 Lesego Rampolokeng
4Hugh Masekela
5 Miriam Makeba
6 Langston Hughes
7 Harriet Tubman
8 Samul. L. Jackson
9 Trevor Noah
10 Patrice Lumumba
11 Chinua Achebe
12 Robert Sobukwe
13 James Baldwin
14 Neil de Grasse Tyson
15 Ida. B. Wells
16 Frantz Fanon
17 Muhammed Ali
18 Wole Soyinka
19 Doris Pilkington
20 Billie Holliday
21 Louis Armstrong
22 Adelaide Tambo
23 Bessie Head
24 Angela Basset
25 Winston Mankunku
26 Bob Marley
27 Leopold Senghor
28 Robert Johnson
29Whitney Houston
30Nelson Mandela
31 Harriet Tubman
32 Husain Bolt
33Malcolm X
34 Lira
35 Ali Fake Taure
36 Jimi Hendrix
And thousands more.
My wall of gratitude, remembrance, inspiration is not only of well-known people. My heroes are also everyday people. They are the many millions of women in my country, who some have to wake up at 4 am, sometimes commute for three to four hours each way, endure a gruelling day at work for a pittance, to provide for their family and make sure that their children at least have some type of an education. People who bear great misfortune and adversity with a hard to understand magnanimity and forbearance.
It is inspiration from men and women when entire odds are stacked against them, put one foot in front of the other, and try their best to forge a better life.
Also, admiration for children who are hungry for education- getting up before the crack of dawn , also walking for hours, sometimes in very dangerous surrounds, an empty stomach, to get to school.
Of course, there are many more examples of courage, humility, hard work, love, beauty in Africa and in the African diaspora.
The Black man who is taught to hate himself and yet loves himself, his women and children.
The Black woman, who is the most discriminated against on the planet, walks upright with blinding beauty and unmatched courage.
Apology again for such a long post.
taotesan
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typos: the people who fought for my freedom
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aargh: ^ typo.
and correction: And millions more.
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@ taotesan
Interesting idea, interesting list.
Another typo: Usain Bolt.
You are right about my Suggestions page. I need to do something about that.
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Seriously, how am i, personally (among others), responsible for poc suffering? Why can’t we have individual accountability?; my culture(?) isn’t magically evil. Moreover, i will never be able to control whether i have privilege or not. And even if i could, do you prefer i live in poverty and danger and oblivion for not being born correctly?
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@Uriel
Come on, you really expect people to walk you through this whole “how do I redeem myself in the eyes of the colored people” schtick?
The idea of “individual accountability” is a dodge – it keeps people from thinking too much about the collective actions of their culture and, in essence, gives the collective a huge pass.
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@ Abagond.
Thanks. Graduated from hen and peck typing
Red faced. Another typo : Samuel. L Jackson
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Julian Bond Rest in peace.
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@ Mary Burrell
Thank you for noting the legends passing. Rest In Power Mr. Bond and all respect & love to his family and all the people he helped.
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@A: Thank you for your post comments as well i enjoy reading you.
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R.I.P. Julian Bond (i wonder if Abagond took his name from a variation of his)
Hey Abagond, may you please do a post on the “classical” pirates? I want to give up my problematical white American culture and create a new one based off pirates-of-that-time ideals, hobos-of-the-thirties ideals, and general justice. If you can’t do the post, do you think my idea is a good and just one?
@Mack Lyons
It’s not a schtick if i’m not pulling a ruse or a joke.
I have no sure power over anyone but myself, and i can’t justly control the past or modern and future benefits of its misdoings. Why can’t you attack ideas like whiteness not cultures like whatever the French have, for instance? I mean, conquest, unfortunately is natural- look at China. Racism came from colorism (by way of puritanical ideologies), which is natural- not Europeans reaching their full evil potential.
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@ Uriel
Why pirates? Aren’t they evil too? How are they any different, deep down morally, than, say, slave traders? Or Western imperialists?
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@Abagond
For the record, when i say “pirate” i don’t mean “privateer” or “seadog”.
I mean, pirates had (usually) codes of fair conduct that didn’t blindly equalize, but equitized (verb form of equity). They also picked up escaped slaves and let them be as equals on board, they didn’t use their money to build an empire- only just support themselves, and they were progressive on their stances toward racism and ableism.
Of course, they were not perfect and were pretty misogynistic and misoqueer. Not to mention they had a scant idea of how the world works, and lacked a fundamental understanding of privilege. Oh, and they were outstandingly cruel to people who didn’t deserve it.
However, flaws like that are/ were present in each culture- and they, along with the hoboes (and wobblies), were the closest the post-1500 Anglo Western world ever came to being as human as poc.
I’m also somewhat hesitant about this, because i’m afraid i’m committing class appropriation as an upper-middle-class person, but then again both my parents grew up poor and i don’t intend to live off too much, even if i have kids.
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@Mirkwood
There is no such thing as overthought. Also, i don’t consider you a reputable source on racism and colonialism just yet, considering your track record.
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@Critical Equality Studies
“You are being told you are wrong because, well, you are wrong.”—Then by your logic my comments to follow should simply state you are wrong. Such fine debating skills of a 2 year old.
1. Where did I say (please quote me) that I was not responding to you.
2. Bring up what whites stole is not white-centric. Do try again. Familiarize yourself with what the word actually means and we can continue from there. Also reread what I said because mentioning whites does not negate it change that you are using the term white-centric as a means to poorly debunk what I said. It does not.
3. I don’t think so. If we take your logic then explain what is at the heart of self-interest? Fear. Even without a threat to power the fear is still there. Fear of not having. Fear of being without. Fear is the driving force you want to ignore. A person will go into the wild and hunt for food and may even get more than needed out of fear of dying of hunger.
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Abagond, what’s your take on this recent meeting between Hillary Clinton and the Boston chapter of #BlackLivesMatter?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eCraUvIq-s&list=PLUgRTD1mpwSV7arDsfvTHRta0lM0hs8nX&index=1)
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What does anyone not white and not whitewashed think of my idea?
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Nelson Mandela’s Grandson charged with rape. Seriously, WTF?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/18/nelson-mandela-grandson-court-charged-rape-mbuso-mandela
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@ Mack Lyons
I heard that this was on video and that she “lectured” them. Thank you!
It went better than I expected. I think Hillary Clinton is right that BLM needs to bake down their demands to workable government policies that politicians can sell as part of their package.
Alicia Garza, one of the founders of BLM, danced around that question of policy demands on the Rachel Maddow show:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UnBykVezRI)
Both Garza and the BLM activists in your video seem to expect candidates to come up with the policies. That is a mistake.
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Ava DuVernay’s review of “Straight Outta Compton”, tweet by tweet:
http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/08/18/ava-duvernay-tweets-straight-outta-compton-review/
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http://gawker.com/heres-whats-missing-from-straight-outta-compton-me-and-1724735910
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http://www.avclub.com/article/jared-subway-will-reportedly-plead-guilty-child-po-224056
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Really enjoyed Straight Outta Compton. I don’t think the trailer did it justice but the performances by the main cast were spectacular. Very informative, funny, sad in some parts and well done. Ice Cube’s son spectacularly played his dad. Well done…Well done….
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@ Pumpkin
I was not planning to do a post on “Straight Outta Compton”. Ava DuVernay grew up in that time and place and is a wonderful film director, so I do not see how I have anything to add to what she said.
If you want to do a guest post, though, I will gladly put it up:
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@Lord Of Mirkwood
You do realize Democrats are just as racist, right?
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I am on the fence about Straight Outta Compton i hated NWA’s music and the misogyny/misogynoire. I hate that Dr. Dre beat women and i hate the name calling of black women and the violence. I get that people are angry at the present brutality and killing of unarmed black men by the police but i just can’t bring myself to support this.
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@Mary Burrell,
I’m not supporting it either, not 1 red cent.
@ Abagond- are you going to do a book review of T. Coates book, Between the World and Me? It’s on my book list.
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14 trillion dollars? Pocs aren’t asking for much my ass. I(among others)’d literally have to sell my limbs out of their sockets to break half of that.
Like, do you want me (among others) to live in poverty and danger? Why am i not entitled to basic living, expanse, and safety? (just read Abagond’s posts on why white America- among other places is rich, if you think i’m feeding you bullsh-t): because a) apparently benefiting from privilege means you deserve hatred, b) benefiting is not forgivable even if it was out of one’s control, and c) an impossible goal is what it takes to have even a chance of being liked.
Do i really have to give that much for shit i couldn’t control? Does anyone period deserve more than a certain amount in cash and items? Like, it’s literally easier to find a shortcut with brain chemicals to cancel out all the pain poc face/ revive a human being then get that much money. Why not just hack brains and revive people? It’s more cheap and doable.
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Expanse is expansion of property, privileges, etc. provided it doesn’t get in the way of others’ rights.
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I wish we could edit posts, so i (among others) would avoid sounding pissy and ridiculous.
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Not to say anyone recently sounds pissy, only i do afaict.
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@ Uriel
If you write two posts that begin the same way, I will delete the older one and keep the newer one assuming that it is a correction.
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@ Uriel
I doubt anyone wants that. Yet you and others who oppose reparations seem to be QUITE FINE with Black and Native Americans suffering high rates of poverty relative to Whites, which are caused in large part by the trillions of dollars of land and labour that Whites took from them at gunpoint.
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@Abagond1
Thanks, okay i’ll that then.
@Abagond2
I’m not. I am for reparations, just not as much to make them rich, but make everyone middle class. I guess equity could come by by giving them first dibs at any device that cures trauma, desensitizes pain, or revives the dead.
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@ Uriel
I am completely against brain hacking. I saw a form of it in my younger days: the Crack Epidemic.
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How is removing serious pain from human beings anything like the crack epidemic?
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@ Mary
I haven’t seen Straight Outta Compton yet but I will soon. As noted on older posts I’m not a fan of the sub-genre of gangsta rap but a huge follower of hip hop in general. I hear you when you reference their violence against women but seeing as it’s a period piece I think the flaws of the protagonists gives it a level of realism. Think about it, Prince slapped the HELL out of Apollonia in Purple Rain, and he’s a little dude with an effeminate voice, androgynous appearance & personality. Which proves just how commonplace that type of nonsense was and is. NWA came to prominence just a few years later which means this was still a significant part of the culture by that point so while I understand the concern I also acknowledge that it would be extremely unrealistic to not have domestic violence and misogyny as characteristics of the protagonists in a film of this nature.
James Brown admitted to serially beating women and nobody really had an issue going to see his biopic. Part of it is because we have a glamorized view of America pre-1980’s. Everyone refers to the 70’s and decades prior as the good ol’ days but seem to forget that many men Black, White or otherwise abused their wives and children and many others that didn’t still wouldn’t say a word to those who did which means they were part of the problem. The only difference was that there wasn’t a women’s lib movement and a 24 hour media cycle to highlight wrongdoings of men against women. Trust and believe if there were the average household patriarch regardless of race might make Ray Rice look like an amateur by comparison.
Its sort of reminiscent of Hannibal Burress & young Black men’s issues with older Black men like Bill Cosby attempting to lecture us;
“In my day men married women before they had children”
A lot of these guys had 2nd families they didn’t even tell their wives about so when they say something of this nature the 1st thing that comes to mind is “which woman?” Back then even in the face of blatant racism a Black man could still get a job working in a factory that paid a living salary. If all else fell through the Black community was economically tight-knit so one could get a job from another Black man if necessary. Marriage is a financial decision and men with said finances regardless of race do wed before having children writ large. Since these things weren’t spoke of in music as often & words like “B***h” & “hoe” were never used we forget how much uglier gender relations were which leads to a lack of backlash over the image and legacy of a James Brown versus that of an Ice Cube, Snoop Dogg, 2Pac etc. But when it’s all said and done the latter generation of men directly succeeded the self righteous generation who “took care” of the family which proves their foolishness; They don’t realize how self incriminating their critiques of us are.
I don’t think it’s as simple as recognizing something from the past=glamorizing it so long as everyone understands what was wrong about said behavior and learns a lesson. Dre has done interviews saying he regrets his actions and feels he’s a better man. Don’t know if it’s true or not as I obviously don’t know him personally but as I’ve stated before I listened to gangsta rap back in the day but simply outgrew it as time went on. I never listened to hear violence & misogyny, just to hear anti police brutality messages, sick beats, verbal gymnastics, tales of Black poverty and things that resembled the environment I grew up in . After a while the former features of the genre turned me off and led me in the direction of rap that only/mostly catered to the latter.
I would just like to see what happened behind the scenes with these guys and hope that it’s not seen as synonymous with disrespecting Black women. And much like you that’s the crux of my issue with gangsta rap is the conflicted feeling it left me with; how the hell can someone the greatest rapper of all time make a song like “Keep Ya Head Up” referring to Black women as Sista, Girl, Mother, then turn around and make a song like “I Get Around” calling Black women hoes? How can someone make a track decrying police brutality then shout how he’s “finna kill some n***as” the next? It’s clear these guys were intelligent on some level but since misogyny is so omnipresent they still absorbed it and it came out in their music and lives. 2Pac even went to jail for sex offense which he swore was a false allegation and his mother Afeni still does to this day. At the very least whether we see the film or not we can use it as a universal lesson of how NOT to treat women and your community. But make no mistake, I completely respect you opinion and see where you’re coming from. I would never tell anyone how to feel I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in is all.
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“how the hell can someone the greatest rapper of all time”
* how the hell can the greatest rapper of all time
My bad.
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@A:Always enjoy reading your post thanks for reading mine and responding.
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I plan to read T.Coates new book Between the World and Me.
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The new thread post is about Lacey Schwartz and her racial identity the next BLM activist Shaun King this is the trending topic on black social media. I think people should let this brother do his work, this is just a distraction to divert from the more pressing issue of police brutality and killing of unarmed black people.
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@A: I am unable i just can’t do Straight Outta Compton.
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@ lifelearner @ Mary @ Pumpkin @ Mbeti
I ordered Coates’s new book. I will probably do posts on both him and the book in two weeks or so.
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Read a Michael Jon Barker comment on something recently and thought:
Why does Mirkwood (or anyone) need to study afrocentrism and black power to fix his progressivism? Isn’t the former just illogical and the latter already a given? Afrocentrism is still unneeded hierarchy, but with blacks on top instead of whites- moreover why would it be necessary for anything outside personal history? As for black power, why should it go beyond equity?
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Beyond equity being liberation that is.
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@Mary
“The new thread post is about Lacey Schwartz and her racial identity the next BLM activist Shaun King this is the trending topic on black social media. I think people should let this brother do his work, this is just a distraction to divert from the more pressing issue of police brutality and killing of unarmed black people.’
Agree 100% regarding Shaun King. I read his personal essay and it really saddens me that he felt he had to even prove his identity to the conservative media. It was such a personal attack on him. Clearly what he and some of the other prominent BLM activists write about has struck a nerve. So what better way to distract than to question someone’s full racial identity? Which begs the question, how Black do you have to be/look to support BLM? The conservative media divide and conquer tactic is not going to work. They need to stop the BS…
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I hate holism. Why is it needed? So one can lump people together and judge them for stuff they can’t control! So essentialism can exist! So everything can coalesce with the ridiculous views of “EVERYTHING being connected.”, and “There’s not a tree, but there are many forests.”, and “I’m gonna give circuitous idioms* as actual advice even though they make no sense.”, and “the spirit is more important then the body.”, and most importantly “everything is permanent.”.
I also call it on reverse prejudice being righteous. What did most, personally, do to you? Every human privileged and oppressed alike is an individual, and therefore should be judged as such. Cultures exist in a continuum not thick lines, not not at all, and not as being one and the same.
Also, why do people wonder why the privileged idolize suffering, when to not suffer (i.e. benefit from privilege) is to be a mountain of evil?
*like koans, but not used in a spiritual sense.
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Again, i’m venting stress because privileged self care is wrong.
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Not sure if privileged self care from reverse prejudice is wrong.
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@Abagond- Cool, looking for to your commentary.
Here’s another good food for thought critique of Straight Out of Compton
http://beansouptimes.com/arrested-developments-lead-singer-speech-thomas-shares-thoughts-on-straight-outta-compton/#sthash.j9Y8w7rA.ILhWduO5.dpbs
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*forward
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@Mary Burrell
I did go see straight out of Compton. In my eyes is it not one of the revolutionary movies that empower. It was more a sign of the times type movies.
It was shocking that I grew up listening to that type stuff and still turned out the way I did. It was not a bad things but the misogyny in the movie was scary.
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@lifelearner
I wonder why no one is trying to do a movie on The Black Panthers. I am ready for one and that is one I think will really open some eyes.
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As a side note I wonder if black panthers had to deal with a all panthers type crowd.
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@ abagond.. This happened near me in CA and while it’s not gaining national news, I thought it was very interesting how a group of Black women can’t even enjoy life on a wine train without it being an issue. Note one of the reader comments in the blog where a passenger actually witnessed the women being harassed and scolded, when other people were doing essentially the same thing… When can we live and enjoy life without being held to a double standard? So now “Laughing while Black” gets you thrown off of a wine train..
http://verysmartbrothas.com/getting-kicked-off-a-wine-tour-for-laughingwhileblack-is-the-blackest-thing-that-ever-happened-this-week/
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@bygodsloveandgrace: I read that on another site i had to wonder wth? So a group of ladies can’t go out and enjoy a wine tasting? I read that their is a noise ordinance so there must be quiet. Really? While people are enjoying a glass of wine and socializing they must do it in silence? I call bull s**t on that whole thing. The oldest lady in the group was probably in her 80’s and they called the police on these women. That is just insulting. I know if they had been white they wouldn’t have called the cops.
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*there*^^^
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@ Mary
Apparently they can’t. My friend has been on one of the wine trains here and she mentioned that it’s basically a bar on wheels. Additionally, she’s endured a lot of White men being rowdy and saying all kinds of things very loudly yet no one complains.. However a group of Black women who were part of a book club can’t enjoy themselves on the train… The double standards abound…
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@sharinalr: Yeah, i get that it was the times but i just hated NWA’s music. I will not support that film. But i am glad yo enjoyed it.
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@lifelearner: Thanks for that link i wondered where Speech was after all these years? I loved Arrested Development back in the day. That was good consciousness music with good messages.
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So there is a double standard for Black Americans and the other group doing the same thing. Thank God the cops didn’t shot those ladies or brutalize them. This country is going backwards. We are in retrograde.
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*shoot* ^^
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Retrograde? Seems like this “the same as it ever was”, except it has a helluva lot more coverage thanks to social media and international press.
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“Black pitmasters left out of US barbecue boom” | http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33994947
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@Mary
I understand. I personally can’t say I enjoyed it, but can’t say I hated it either. I’m just on the fence with it. Not sure what to take from it other than a bit refreshing that it was simply raw.
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@Mary B- I know right, Speech was such an awesome conscious rapper-TENNESEE- my fav.
@Sharina- yes, it would be AWESOME if there was a true to life Black Panther film (maybe Ava Duvernay would give it justice-if she was ever approached to do such a film)
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These white folks just keep pushing and pushing black people to the brink and one black man finally couldn’t take it anymore and killed two white people.
He alleges racial discrimination as he was fired ( No surprise there ) for a News Station. supposedly had issues with the camera man, no word on the white female anchor, whether or not she had an issue with him or vice versa.
breaking news below….
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/wdbj7-reporter-alison-parker-photographer-adam-ward-killed-live-tv-n416221
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Vester Lee Flanagan II, 41, also known as Bryce Williams.
He’s also a dead, shot himself upon state troopers, apprehending him.
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These racist white people feel brazen and bold to create, hostile work environments for black people and have no consequences.
I don’t condone the killing of these two white folks but you reap what you sow.
I am positive that if there is proof that this station and the people who worked with Bryce Williams, did treat him horribly because he was a black man, it won’t be bought to light for the sole purpose of preserving the victims squeaky clean image.
Therefore, i feel its safe to say that this is another example of work place, racial discrimination.
White people that don’t like working with black people, purposelessly create hostile work environments for black people, so they can either quit or document trivial incidents as to create a history, so they can use to fire black people.
pigeon holding, no promotions or monetary raises is also used to push out black people for companies across America.
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more info on his past law suit against another news station for racial discrimination.
https://twitter.com/search?q=Vester+Flanagan&ref_src=twsrcgoogle|twcampserp|twgrsearch
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Here’s the story:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/vester-flanagan-lawsuit-racism_55ddefa8e4b08cd3359e336e?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067
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Here’s more:
http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/08/26/vester-flanagan-suicide-note-bryce-williams-wdbj-news-shooting-virginia/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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The above link has the actual video of the shooters hand, holding the gun, before the shooting takes place. They didn’t even notice him.
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@agabond,
Are you going to do a post on Hillary Clinton? If so, it would be interesting to compare her to an old politician Louise Day Hicks. I’m thinking along the lines of a woman who pushed for gender equality issues but fought against racial equality. Not that Hillary is doing that but it is interesting to look at how white women address the two issues when involved in politics.
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@afrosapiens,
I can’t believe you stuck with that argument for so long. You’re a better person than I am.
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@Sharina
Thanks for sharing! Definitely supporting Healthy Roots
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Pumpkin
“sondis check your email.”
I didn’t get any email from you….what email address did you send it?
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@sharinalr: I love that video that is something that is needed in our community. I hope that sister is successful and all of our little ones embrace their beautiful uniqueness. That was lovely.
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@sharinalr Loved the video! Nice to see a company providing inspirational characters for girls of color. I wish I had some How To natural hair care books as a kid. When I think back to how much I hated my hair growing up. However now I embrace it whether I make it straight or naturally curly… I went natural in 2010 so it’s been an amazing journey…
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My copy of Coates’s “Between the World and Me” has arrived. It looks smaller in real life.
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Hey everyone, what’s your all’s opinion on hoboes and the wobblies? Those subcultures seem to be the only two good things to come out of the US. Is white American culture inherently colonial and wrong?
Mirkwood don’t answer.
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Dang, i wish i was a European-by-birthplace-and-raisingplace. How’s it fair they get cultures and i don’t? I need culture, yet everyone good (as in not a murderer, rapist, thief, or anyone ignorant) sees whatever i have as colonial and pathetic. But Europeans have real cultures.
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Also, does anyone know how to incorporate foreign cultural influences into one’s art with being white-gazy and theftful? Or at least knows a primer on such?
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@Abagond: My T. Coates book is in my Amazon cart.
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Yep folks, you can now be tailed by a police officer for.. gasp.. making direct eye contact.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/ohio-cop-tells-black-man-he-tailed-him-and-pulled-him-over-for-direct-eye-contact/
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It’s been 10 years since Katrina hit New Orleans God bless the folks in the 9th ward. RIP and Happy Birthday to the King of Pop Michael Jackson.
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bygodsloveandgrace: I am not surprised by any of this it’s always something. Black folks have to be careful in the divided states of America. Black lives have never mattered in America. From slavery to the Civil Rights era to now in the age of Obama, the oppressive power continues to demonstrate ways to keep black people down but black folks need to keep fighting.
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Anytime ladies. 🙂
It is very much needed.
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I don’t know which one that is. just tell me which email you sent it too. so i can check it.
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“bygodsloveandgrace
Yep folks, you can now be tailed by a police officer for.. gasp.. making direct eye contact.”
Yeah, i read an article on that one. I saw the video also. White cops always threaten black people with harsher charges, if we complain about being racially profiled and unlawfully stopped.
You see in the video, the black man asking why did he pull him over. The cops tells him, because you looked at me!
The black guys objects and lets the cop know he’s not happy and as a result, the cop threatens him with a worse charge! why? because he’s objecting to being discriminated against? These racist white people will say anything! I’m glad he got it on video!
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@Mary @Sondis….. It’s a sad day when just looking at a cop can now get you pulled over. My God.. any excuse.. And some wonder why we’re beyond irritated.
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Abagond, can you please make “…but what’s MY (GOOD)* culture?” a broken record or something? I am desperate to know what you and this circle thinks about white Americans and whites “from” outside Europe only having evil culture(s). I can’t magically relate to a culture i wasn’t raised by. Why is it wrong for you to lease off parts off your culture so we can create new cultures? Going back to what we gave up is always seen as hypocritical, stagnant, and supportive of evil ethnicities.
If you wonder why we appropriate your cultures, it’s usually because of entitlement, yes- but at least 25% of the time it’s because the only people who view our culture as at least benign are horrible human beings. Who on earth would want to belong with nothing but a hive of murderers, rapists, and thieves?
Also, why do you think colonialism wouldn’t have happened had poc or non-Germanic Europeans (and the French) gained power? I do however agree genocide and racism are not common.
*The ‘GOOD’ is always implied even if it’s barely ever said. Nobody deserves or wants a culture that is uniquely and basically evil. Whites may not be uniquely evil, but those born and/ or raised outside Europe seem to be. Even once they return to Europe.
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Feel free not to answer much, and ask much more. Not that i’m the final arbiter of anything. I especially regret mentioning evil ethnicities since it wanes my point about born-and-raised Europeans being the only whites who are not uniquely evil.
Again, apologies for my tone.
My reasons for a lack of a roots revival in white diaspora are as follows:
*We are usually mixed ethnicity, and therefore we’d be going nowhere.
*We have much more in common with random dolts we grew up nearby than anyone who is a member of the same ethnicity.
*Their heritage is way too different from ours. The time to re-join them has long been up. Just look at Israel.
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@Abagond
You need to write about this.Pleaase!!!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24KYINdqG-A)
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Idris Elba too “street” to play Bond, says writer of newest 007 novel.
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/idris-elba-james-bond-too-street-author-anthony-horowitz-1201582692/#respond
When will they LEARN!!??? Lol
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Suggestions
Conservative: The “Polar Bear Hunting” Meme
Liberal: The article “Taxis and the Meaning of Work”
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Hey sharinalr. I’m srry I bothered u before. I just ghi k I didn’t or fo t get the way you worded your old response. Please forgive me and I’ll will leave alone fir good all I ask if to clear up my last question. So is it cultural appropriation for whites to own jewlery period. Like don’t whites own certain types of jewlery? , and the same question applies to knives to. Please and thank you. Again I’m sorry for my ignorance
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@ satanforce
Thanks!
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@Nathan t
Ornamental or functional jewelry? Functional jewelry and knives are free reign. If a culture holds back a non-artistic or non-aesthetic innovation, they are greedy no questions asked. Also, individual species of plants and animals are not off limits as food, maybe some dishes from them are. Henna= okay, Mehndi=bad. Who would want to hoard safety to themselves?
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I don’t know if Abagond knows about this, but I did a blog post on Texas yahoo Nathan Ener’s Youtubed threats against blacks: http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2015/09/white-mobs-black-lives-and-you.html?spref=tw
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@abagond
Was wondering if you did any blogs on archeologists findings that the first Americans (both North/South) we Black? Someone recently posted a YouTube video that I’m partially through viewing. I’m waiting for the meat which is why I haven’t posted it here.. However I came across this article as I’m fascinated by this topic…
http://vveasey.hubpages.com/hub/Black-People-Were-The-First-People-In-America
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@Nathan t
I do believe I answered that on the culture appropriation thread.
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The other side of Gandhi.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/03/what-did-mahatma-gandhi-think-of-black-people/
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@King
If true, this really breaks my heart. Gandhi… Wow.
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@King
He also refused to give his wife quinine and betrayed the Dalits. Gandhi, along with Lennon and Lincoln are really overrated as humane beings.
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Ok sharinalr, so I’m good then, thank you
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@ King.
I actually had an English teacher in high school that put us onto Ghandis true feelings about Blacks. I was surprised because most public schools are factories who have a specific set of propaganda they aim to brainwash their students with. She however was a very unconventional & highly intelligent individual and for that reason ended up being everyone’s favorite teacher by years end. Sad that some non-Black POC spew so much anti-Black garbage that it would make a Klansmen look tame by comparison.
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As I read this I’m thinking, I hope no one messes this up.
http://www.africanglobe.net/africa/africa-income-country-2050/
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Abagond could you do a post on the deflective “what about black on black crime?” argument that gets spewed every time someone tries to speak on Black lives.
The people that regurgitate this nonsense don’t seem to realize that their isn’t a single major city in America with a significant Black population that doesn’t have some sort of anti-violence & gang intervention activist group that works endlessly to end PROXIMITY crime in Black neighborhoods.
It has nothing to do with Black people not caring about it, it is our family members & friends being killed & assaulted out in the streets. The White owned media just refuses to show up to rallies and events held by these groups because it doesn’t fit their anti-Black agenda; if they showed Blacks working collectively to solve our issues it would destroy the “savage negro” propaganda they broadcast daily.
Since this is now the go to argument of the coon & their white handlers I fear if not debunked thoroughly & swiftly we’ll never be able to advance the conversation further. Its pull your hair out frustrating to hear, at least to me anyway.
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@ A
That is Broken Record #23:
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Our connection to ice hockey… Interesting..
http://blacktimetravel.com/black-ice-documentary-details-how-black-men-created-hockey/
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LoM,
What you are talking about is tokenism, and Abagond did touch on it in a post about teaching US history. We could easily extend the idea to other areas, eg, popular entertainment.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/vine-deloria-jr-on-the-whitenesss-of-american-history/)
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I read that about Ghandi too and i kind of hurt me a little. I am very sad and disappointed to learn this about him as well.
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Abagond,
Could you do a post on Black Agenda Report? They provide a highly systematic and highly radical perspective on contemporary events. This perspective seems to be based in an important tradition of Black Radical thought.
As far as I can tell, they get very little uptake from the blogosphere. This seems unfortunate.
Who are Glen Ford and the other editors? What exactly are their background political assumptions? What have they gotten right? What have they gotten wrong?
Thanks for considering my request!
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Wanted to share another black business.
https://www.abanashoes.com/home
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Sharina, Thanks for the link, In this day of internet and social media it would be very easy to connect Black businesses and even make e-maps for major cities and metros so everyone can buy Black as often as possible.
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To hear a career sing Geronimo; Damon Wayans defends Pill Cosby.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ebonycom/why-would-damon-wayans-de_b_8105486.html
I hope his words don’t drag the rest of the family down. Though some of their work is clearly buffoonish they’re one of the few if only Black families in Hollywood who work together that produce, write, & direct their own projects. The image is positive for Blacks that want to do something in media as a collective, minus the aforementioned tomfoolery.
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I knew about Gandhi, just like I knew about Lincoln. There are some things I’m not too shock about anymore. I think the more history we are fed the more dirt one can find. There are several versions of a story when it comes to icons from the past and present. Jus like MLK and the extramarital affairs. Everyone like this nice cookie cunot to make too many “famous people” role models due to the disappointment factor.
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*cookie cutter image of their hero/sheros. I try not to make… my role model (I need to wake up-sorry for the typos 😀 )
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@ Kiwi
“I think of Gandhi’s legacy as being similar to that of Martin Luther King. The reason they’re so famous and idolized in the West is because Whites perceive them as peaceful and unthreatening and therefore more acceptable.”
Many on this blog have said similar and there is certainly some truth to it. But I think it only applies to those whites who have a stake in not changing the status-quo too radically. Those can be either racists who don’t really want to change white supremacy or people who want to change it but not risk other aspects of that society. The most extreme white racists on the other hand don’t seem to favour the non-violent activsts, they mostly hope for an all-out race war which requires violent anti-racists.
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/ex-tennis-star-james-blake-mistakenly-tackled-white-cops-article-1.2353983
Let’s see the NYPD try to spin this…
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Hey, guys i just wanted to apologize for my recent actions. I’m gonna leave the blog until i’m all sorted out. I realize that taking my anger out on allies and misguided poc is just wrong and i’ll never do it again.Tell swank if he wants to message me about cultural appropriation to email me.
Feel free to send me an email about any time a white commenter is acting bratty about any anti-racism topic bar most cultural appropriation. I have a quite a bit of patience dealing with fools. Anyway, also give me a message if i’m needed for other reasons.
Also, abagond, are you going to change the credits in the cultural appropriation post and delete my posts under other names?
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@ Uriel
I deleted those posts.
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One of my buddies was in the Windows of the World restaurant exactly 14 years ago this morning.
Just want to let him know that he still lives in our hearts and minds.
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@Abagond thanks.
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RIP Marcy Borders the iconic dust covered woman in the 9/11 attacks dies from stomach cancer.
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“Just before noon on Wednesday, September 9, 2015, while I was standing on a sidewalk outside my hotel in midtown Manhattan waiting for a car to take me to the U.S. Open, a plainclothes New York City police officer tackled me to the ground, handcuffed me, paraded me down a crowded sidewalk, and detained me for ten minutes before he and his four colleagues realized they had the wrong man. The officer, who was apparently investigating a case of credit card fraud, did not identify himself as a member of law enforcement, ask my name, read me my rights or in any way afford me the dignity and respect due every person who walks the streets of this country. And while I continue to believe the vast majority of our police officers are dedicated public servants who conduct themselves appropriately, I know that what happened to me is not uncommon.
When this incident was reported in the news media, Mayor de Blasio and Commissioner Bratton both called me to extend their personal apologies, and I greatly appreciate those gestures. But extending courtesy to a public figure mistreated by police is not enough. As I told the Commissioner, I am determined to use my voice to turn this unfortunate incident into a catalyst for change in the relationship between the police and the public they serve. For that reason, I am calling upon the City of New York to make a significant financial commitment to improving that relationship, particularly in those neighbourhoods where incidents of the type I experienced occur all too frequently. The Commissioner has agreed to meet with my representatives and me to discuss our ideas in that regard, and we very much look forward to that meeting.”
Statement from James Blake. I hope something comes of this.
http://www.businessinsider.com/nypd-video-of-tennis-star-james-blake-being-thrown-to-the-ground-2015-9
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@bygodsloveandgrace: I saw that huge eff up by the NYPD. They just love to profile and harrass Black men that’s just what they do. But James Blake got his Negro wake up call also. IJS.
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I am sad and disappointed for Serena Williams losing but she is still the GOAT and i will always love and respect her.
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The only difference between James Blake and other Black men in New York is that Blake is famous enough where the (White) press will talk to him and take him seriously.
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@Abagond: That is true i think they apologized to him i haven’t been following this really close.
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But James Blake got his Negro wake up call also
I saw this man on CNN and he says he didn’t think it was wholly racial. Perhaps he needs some more wakeup call?
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So the James Blake kerfuffle resulting in the officer being put on administrative leave and an apology from the Mayor and police chief.
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@Herneith: He is he naive or stupid or both?
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RIP Moses Malone
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@Mary.. Even more sad, is that the NYPD rushed to post a photo of the supposed “suspect” who it turned out was also innocent. They tried to find someone who closely resembled James to justify the eff up.. This is just further proof that respectability politics won’t work. Some of these cops are used to doing whatever they want without so much as a slap on the wrist. Enough is enough.
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@Herneith
Sounds like a guy who wants the media to focus solely on the police misconduct end of things, because pinning the blame mostly on racism will simply make white people tune out of listening. Just a guess.
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He is he naive or stupid or both?
I think he is in denial. This is what happens when you are white washed. When something like this happens, the person in denial that racism is institutional and socially systemic, goes into shock. This is why it is important to educate yourselves in ‘code’, and other ‘subtle’ forms of behaviour perpetrated on an almost daily basis on Black people by whites and their ‘allies’. Oddly enough, it is ‘liberating’ and makes for a healthier life style when you realize what ‘day’ it is.
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Sounds like a guy who wants the media to focus solely on the police misconduct end of things, because pinning the blame mostly on racism will simply make white people tune out of listening. Just a guess.
You are absolutely correct in your assumption as that is what he said in the interview. He kept saying that racism was ‘another issue’ and he wanted to focus on police conduct. He kept saying racism was for another ‘discussion’. I guess he was afraid to scare off his sponsors(if he had any), or potential business from whites. I refer to these types as PTWI (pandering to white interests). I get the sneaking suspicion that he doesn’t really consider himself Black, at least like those lowly ‘stereotypical’ other ones. I have not sympathy for him as did not take the opportunity to protest it as the racist act it was.
My question to the police would be thus; If he had been a white suspect, would he have been treated thusly? The suspect was involved in white collar crimes which in general do not involve violence. How dangerous would this ‘suspect’ be to the point such a violent take down was warranted.? Had it been myself involved in a case of mistaken identity and treated similarly, I would be enraged and up in arms. I would call it what is is, racism/white supremacy.
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So outrageous.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kamilah-brock-nypd-bmw_55f2c9aae4b063ecbfa3e60d
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@ Sharina
Wow.
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Pumpkin:
interesting…..very interesting indeed. @ : o l ) >
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32 years later the Miss America Pageant apologizes to Vanessa Williams after trying to literally destroy her but she was resilient and continue to be a success in spite of it all. Great ending to that chapter to her life.
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@Pumpkin
I did. The comments are hilarious. In between the largely white commentariat recasting itself as oppressed victims, “race fatigue” and general ignorance, I found this gem:
Followed by:
Blacks: Can’t Live With Them, Can’t Live Without Them.
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@ pumpkin
I did not see that. Thanks! The racist commenters almost make her point for her even though they think they are disproving her.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You mean the Irish-Americans who’ve managed to transition into the Great White Collective while black Americans continue to be treated as outsiders in their own country?
Do tell…
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@ Mary… I think Vanessa is the only Miss America who I remember and stands out. Not too many could do that! Hats off to her success and how she handled things with grace and dignity.
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So happy for Viola Davis and her Emmy win. #Team Viola
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Dear Abby, get on the right side, vote for Rand. I will battle the f out anyone who say other wise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vimZj8HW0Kg)
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Rand Paul is the only one going into those debates with real ammo. The good.. Rand Paul… The Bad ..another Bush. .. The Ugly.. Donald Trump (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=19&v=a41bERTFBUI)
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Actually Abagond, I like this version better. For your listening pleasure. I’m a gracious adversary. ..good movie too. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOr0na6mKJQ)
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@ Dave
I like some of what Rand Paul says, like about the police and the NSA, but in general he is way too libertarian, a philosophy that favours the rich.
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Bold
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Underline
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I was on Google+ And a poster raised the question who was Nat Turner was he a hero or villian? Many said he was a hero. I would like to believe he was a hero because his intentions were good to free the slaves but there were some who may feel it is kind of complex. I wonder what some of you here on Abagond feel? I especially wonder what Abagond thinks about Nat Turner?
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@Mary.
I would say Nat Tuner did what he did to free Blacks from slavery. It required violence to do that. But let’s not forget about the violence plantation owners leveled against their slaves and violence begets violence. I’m sure he understood his actions woukd result in his death. But he did what he thought was the right thing to do.
I think he is more of what a hero should look like as opposed to somebody like Chris Kyle in American Sniper who muderer a few hundred people in the “defense” of his country.
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@ Mary
I would count him as a hero. Slaves have a right to rebel. If George Washington is hero, then Nat Turner certainly is.
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on Nat Turner
I think the morality of use of force in an uprising is dependent on a) the level of opression and b) if there were other more lenient means of protest. In the case of American slavery the opressin was near total and no other means available, so the use of force was justified. Not so however the killing of those who could take no active part in the suppression of the rebellion – like children and the elderly.
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@ Abagond
Do you have any thoughts on the international refugee situation?
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@Everyone: Thank you for your responses.
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@ Kartoffel
1. People in the West act like this is the worst refugee crisis since the Second World War. From what I know, it is the worst one that has affected THEM. Lebanon, for example, had tons of refugees from the Syrian Civil War. It was not considered a “crisis” then. Why is that? I remember Malawi once had tons of refugees from Mozambique. Again, no “crisis”. Kenya, last I knew, had a half million people from Somalia.
2. Refugees should be divided up among Western countries according to how many bombs they dropped on the countries that the refugees are coming from. That means the US would probably get the lion’s share.
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1. That is definitly true. In Germany I think we had four stages of how the refugee situation was perceived.
a) Anything that happens outside of the Middle East ist barely noticed.
b) Refugees in Lebanon and Trukey. That got some coverage, but beyond some lip service to “international action” you heard little.
c) A lot of refugees in the southern border states. A lot of coverqage and extensive discussion on how disfunctional the European asylum system is. Some political action, but when sytmied the governnment let it go.
d) Refugees in Germany. Not a day without extensive coverage. The government mobilizes a lot of resources and political capital and starts to bully the other European governments to an actual reform.
2. Something along that lines is discussed a lot in Germany. Especially the position of the UK irks many. On some far right sites they even float the idea that the refugees are brought in by an American (and of course Zionist) conspiracy to destroy Europe.
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London Club apparently not letting in women because of their complexion and size. Geez, whatever next.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2015/09/popular-london-nightclub-under-fire-for-refusing-to-let-black-women-in-for-being-too-dark-too-fat/
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@Onipresent: I read that and it’s disgusting that kind of thing is what breeds narcissistic a**holes and does damage to people’s psyches. Not to mention it’s racist as hell. This is why women hurt themselves with eating disorders. I thought the young women who were not allowed into the club were attractive and dressed fashionable. Black folks need to quit begging these a* holes to take their money and begging to be let in to places where they are not wanted. I hope they shut that shi**ty club down.
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@Omnipresent: So they want all the top shelf women meaning biracial and light skin or white or probably Asian for their so called posh establishment. No dark skinned plus sized women. I can’t believe this is real life.
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Mary Burrell
I did a double take when I read this because from what I picked up, some of the people not wanting these women in the clubs are black men! I know from my teens, I had friends who experienced the ‘10% black entry’ that was little known but prevalent in a lot of clubs in the UK but I thought this was dead and buried 20 odd years ago!
Yes, this ridiculous behaviour can breed low self esteem. Hearing this though, I hope all women boycott their friggin club. Plus, if some of the parties involved from the club are black, they must be some wretched individuals and there must be some deep self loathing going on.
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@Omnipresent: I am not surprised that black men are complicit in this garbage. There many self hating coons. SMDH.
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Another mass shooting. Nothing confirmed but most likely acted out by a White male. Another incident where no one in the lamestream media will tie his race to his act. Again, race isn’t confirmed yet but it happened in Central Oregon, I think my assumption is fairly safe. If I’m incorrect I apologize but my point of the double standard stands.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/official-at-least-7-dead-20-hurt-in-oregon-shooting/ar-AAf0Xnl?ocid=ansmsnnews11
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@ A: Yeah, I concur and they (white America) always talking about their rights to bear arms and those crazy NRA gun nuts. When it’s white shooters the mainstream media keeps it low and keeps the details about what happened sketchy. Was he mentally ill and didn’t take his medications? When it’s a black shooter for example the black guy and the white anchor woman and the camera man, they plastered the dead black mans face all over the screen.
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@ Mary Burrell
It’s like 2Pac said “recollect ya thoughts don’t get caught up in the mix, cuz the media is full of dirty tricks”
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Abagond. If I recall you did a post on a university study on empathy triggers that unintentionally discovered that Whites didn’t empathize with Blacks. I may be mistaken and had actually read it on another blog and I apologize if so but if it is here do you remember what the name is?
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@A: That’s food for thought and good advice the media is full of dirty tricks.
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An app created to rate people, yes you heard me people. Not cars, music, or restaurants but people. The level of narcissism has risen to the point that 2 women were tone deaf enough to create a platform of this nature.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/10/01/coming-peeple-app-like-yelp-humans/73146488/
Do they not realize the most fanatic social media users are attention whores with nothing positive, interesting or intelligent to say? This will turn into a place where people go to trash their ex the moment they break up in the heat of emotion. Or says things that possibly aren’t even true of another simply because they don’t like them. Once posted it could ruin a reputation forever. That’s to say nothing of the inevitable sexism and racism that will inevitably pollute the app. An online version of high school more or less, SMH.
The reaction by the rest of social media however is overwhelmingly negative. Which gives me a small sigh of relief considering the content and culture of the more frequent users. When will people learn.
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@ Pumpkin
Wow. Thanks.
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@ A
Gutsell & Inzlicht: Empathy constrained: Prejudice predicts reduced mental simulation of actions during observation of outgroups
Here is the post I did on it:
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@EPGAH
“Would THAT be ad hom?”—Not unless you can find a post where you proved it was not true. Plus I debunked what you said and then called you a name. I did not just rely on name calling to refute you. Plus did you lie on another post claiming you knew what an ad hominem was. Is this your way of admitting you have no clue?
A long paragraph deflecting is just a long paragraph deflecting.
“We didn’t STEAL land, we CONQUERED it.”—CONQUERED is just a fancy way of saying “We stole it with force.” doesn’t mean you did not steal it. It just means it is how you justify it.
“I mentioned that before. Why didn’t you get that?”—You mentioned a lot of things that were lies and foolishness. I can’t read it all without dying of laughter. At any rate it here is me refuting it now.
“If I lived in your house, would you put up with me complaining that you get to do things I don’t, just because you’re the OWNER OF THE HOUSE?”—I wouldn’t allow you to live in my house and if I stole it from you then you have a right to complain. That is life.
“Laws? Hammurabi made the FIRST laws…but Greece made BETTER ones!”—That is great, but we are not talking about what Greeks did now are we. choo choo… all aboard the derail train.
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@sharinalr:
“CONQUERED is just a fancy way of saying “We stole it with force.”” — Want to just tack on that there’s another word for that type of thing: robbery. Europeans robbed Native Americans of their land and resources.
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@ sharinalr
White extremists, like EPGAH and the other White trolls, love to lie and make rhetorical statements like:
1. Whites didn’t steal other people’s land, Whites conquered them.
2. Whites aren’t the result of human genetic mutation, Whites are the result of human evolution.
3. Whites are not racist, it’s Blacks who are racist.
4. Blacks – not Whites – are the leading welfare recipients in America.
5. Blacks – not Whites – are the biggest criminals.
6. Western food doesn’t kill, Blacks have a recessive immune system.
7. Black people’s high bone mineral density prevents them from being good swimmers.
8. The tropics excelled Black maturation but didn’t develop their cognitive capacity and temperament that eventually led to civilization complexity.
9. The Black phenotype is a primitive one.
10. Blacks are good at sports because of their archaic physical strength like speed and fast-twitch muscle strength.
I’ve heard it all from the White supremacists and White extremists. Their rhetoric is old and tired. I love debunking their rhetoric. That’s what I do, sistah. Keep informative us with truth.
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@mike4ty4
Agreed, but we need also add rape.
@Michael Cooper
True, but you know how desperate they are for blacks to be as miserable as them.
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To all the folks in South Carolina stay safe and dry. And the brothers and sisters in the Bahamas stay safe.
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@Uriel I couldn’t understand half of what you were saying. The tone was way off you sound confused. @jefe I have believed for a long time that we should adopt the metric system. It just makes more sense.
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@afrosapiens Good information on the post at Sat 15 Aug 2015 at 00:55:57
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https://plus.google.com/108302836768948259389/posts
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Pumpkin said
“AMEN STOP BEGGING TO BE IN THESE DAMN CLUBS. F-CK THEM!”
Agreed but think that it would need to be endorsed by some to the celebrities that attend and for some reason I don’t think that is going to happen any time soon, but it should.
Pumpkin said
“THEY REALLY WOULD TURN DOWN SOME WOMEN LIKE THIS? ”
I guess it depends on whether her star was rising and she was deemed a celebrity. However, I think most normal men would flock to the club if she was there dancing 😉
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Love this! http://ringoffireradio.com/2015/10/03/prison-debate-team-beats-harvard-debate-team-in-national-competition-now-you-know-why-innocent-people-are-on-death-ro/
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@bygodsloveandgrace
Thank you so much for posting that.
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Just wanted to say hi. I like Back to the Future banner!
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My pleasure sharinalr
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http://www.theblackhomeschool.com/2014/02/05/meet-tony-at-14-he-invented-surgical-technique-and-will-soon-be-a-neurosurgeon/
Another positive story I love.
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@ Mira
Hi! Welcome back.
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@ Pumpkin
I am not into parties. This is how they seem to me:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp2CrfmVfw)
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I’d like to contribute more but I’m busy with my PhD studies. I still visit from time to time.
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@ Abagond
I concur brother. The introvert struggle is real. I’d much rather kick back with family and friends that I consider family in a small-ish group and shoot some pool, talk sh!t and listen to music. I never understood the extraverts need to socializing endlessly in giant groups but all respect to their preference. The huge clouds of weed smoke at every party are particularly annoying. I can barely take the smell let alone be enveloped by it. Who knows, to each their own.
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NYPD steals Black woman’s BMW, commit her to a psych ward when she asks for it back
http://www.blacklistednews.com/NYPD_steal_womans_BMW%2C_commit_her_when_she_asks_for_it_back/46540/0/38/38/Y/M.html
I guess she’s lucky she didn’t become a fatality.. suicide by cop.
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Pumpkin,
I feel that way about parties sometimes too, but this would’ve been a virtual party, that’s a lot more laid back and easy going. we’d start a party thread, get our snacks and post some music videos etc.
huh? @ : o O ) >
Pumpkin…seriously. You need to get out more and experience life! Throwing a e-party on a blog via posting music videos and eating snacks? lol
Talk about cringe worthy……
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http://blackthen.com/happy-birthday-to-the-man-responsible-for-one-of-the-most-important-historical-records-regarding-the-underground-railroad-william-still/
#history
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What’s wrong with doing stuff like reading and writing?
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@ Pumpkin
I did. I am not sure what to say.
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@ jefe
I agree with Pumpkin: reading and writing is great.
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Pumpkin:
Not harsh, just saying you should enjoy your youth, being you only are young once. @ : o / ) >
I responded to you about a month ago and asked you what email address did you send your email from. I didn’t receive anything from my email i use on a daily bases. You never responded to me.
It wasn’t as if i was ignoring you as i have no reason to, being i have nothing against you. @ : o l ) >
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Pumpkin:
“well why didn’t you respond?”
Because i didn’t receive an email from you. I have no way of knowing if you even used the correct email you used, while composing that supposed email you sent. Ya dig? @ : o l ) >
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Just something (semi) personal to share…
I got a US visa the other day, which means that, for the first time in my life, I am allowed to enter USA. And I feel… happy? Happy that I was deemed worthy enough as a human being to go to US instead of a second-class human being. And it should not feel like this; nobody should be proud of something like that so I am pretty much ashamed of myself.
I still want to go an visit US, though.
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One question, Abagond: was there/will there be a post on Nicki Minaj?
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@ Mira
Why, what has she done now?
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Nothing in particular, but there was the cover of the New York Times, her dissing Miley and, well, generally being a woman in mostly male genre. So, a general post on her?
I don’t know, I just though she was interesting enough to talk about. Not in a negative way (unless there is something bad about her that I don’t know about).
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@ Mira
Have you been to the US before?
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Abagond,
Nope, I never had a visa and I never had a chance to get a visa (US government is very strict when it comes to my country; it’s very difficult to get in). But now that I have a study permit and long visa for Canada they gave me a visa. I guess they rely on the fact they can just send me back to Canada/I’m Canada’s problem if I misbehave (not that I will, but I guess that’s the idea).
What I feel ashamed of is that I’m so happy that US validated me. I should not be, I mean, what difference does it make for my self-worth if US government deems me good enough to go to USA?
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“Outside” investigators rule Tamir Rice shooting justifiable. I think we know what’s most likely to happen next. I need a one way ticket to a time machine or off this planet.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/11/tamir-rice-shooting-justified-say-expert-reports-as-grand-jury-process-continues
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@Pumpkin:
i have a question, does anyone here believe in ghosts?
I am not sure if I believe but I had some pretty weird/creepy experiences as a teen when my friend and I made a board to talk to ghosts and… Some creepy things happened that I cannot explain to this day. Even talking (typing) about it makes my skin crawl.
My culture is big on ghosts and dead people roaming the Earth (for at least 40 days after death), vampires etc. so it’s understood this is not something to mess with. Stupid teenagers, I have no idea why I did that but I regret it and just thinking about it makes me scared.
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No, it wasn’t really that kind of a board, it was something we made out of paper. But it had letters and stuff. Ugh. Like I said, it creeps me out even to think about it.
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http://www.alternet.org/16-times-onion-brilliantly-skewered-our-insane-politics?akid=13576.1929437.mmYv8b&rd=1&src=newsletter1044106&t=4
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At this point, I don’t really care who Asian women sleep with. If they get something like AIDS and die, all the better.
That… doesn’t sound like you don’t care, sorry.
The problem is that people of color are seen as a collective and that if one person does something it somehow “reflects” the whole race/group. This is what we should all fight against.
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I wanted to ask something: is it true that the term “fu.kboy” is AAVE in origin? As in, is appropriative to use it if you are not black. I know this insult is gaining momentum among white people but no idea about its origins.
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@ Mira.
Lol yes the term was more or less birthed from AAVE. The South specifically made the term popular. Rappers from Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans & such were using the term as far back as the early 90’s. By the mid to late 2000’s rappers from every other region were using it as well and it subsequently fell into the general AAVE lexicon.
Unlike you however I don’t think I’ve ever heard a White person use that term. Even Whites from the so-called hood. Only Black/Spanish use it around my way. SE Asians use it as well but where I’m from they live side by side with us due to their poverty levels so unlike most cities all 3 races tend to be roughly one big group and actually get along more or less.
Blacks & SE Asians in particular are REALLY tight. How tight? Let’s put it like this; they can say the N word. Writ large. Yes you heard it.
It’s a relationship that most people can’t understand due to the stereotype of some East & South Asians having anti-Black attitudes. Most peoples ignorance of Asian Americans makes them believe all Asian/Black relations are horrible & while its true in some instances in others its the exact opposite. Its harder to hate someone when they’re your neighbor and you consort with them more often. Taking poverty levels into account again its even harder to hate someone when each has to ask the other for food to borrow.
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Unlike you however I don’t think I’ve ever heard a White person use that term.
It is a huge word these days among many so-called “social justice warriors”, many of whom are white. I am not sure about the original/AAVE meaning, but in SJW sphere, the term is used as a derogatory term, usually for a type of a man who is a MRA.
One of the reasons why this term is getting so popular in these discussions is that you do not really have a derogatory term for a man in a sexual/morality sense the way you have for women. We all know those derogatory words for women, but not for men. So, this word is gaining popularity among (internet?) feminists and other social justice boggers to signify a certain type of a man (usually MRA type). The insult is powerful because the men in question didn’t choose it for themselves and they don’t particularly like it.
That being said, if it’s cultural appropriation then it’s bad and I wouldn’t use it.
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“Neckbeard” is sometimes used in a similar context.
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I’ve heard neckbeard used as a way to describe MRA’s before. Amongst Black people it’s more or less another way of saying a**hole or punk mother****er.
Though I see a reason for dissing the ideologues of the movement who come off as insane I don’t necessarily see a problem with the proposed issues.
I’ve been to family court and seen first hand just how difficult it is for a man to get even the slightest amount of time with his kids. I’ve also seen women not abide by the custody ruling at all with the courts not inflicting any punishment upon her for not allowing the father to see his kids. If/when its the other way around a man will likely be locked up or pursued for not paying his child support.
Also in regards to domestic violence against men people act as if it’s something that never happens and shouldn’t be taken seriously. I’ve seen otherwise my entire life so I won’t bother with anecdotes I’ll just leave you with a true story that encompasses what a man deals with when he has an abusive partner.
There were only a few lines in this post but if I’m not mistaken believe there was another more in depth post that he did on the subject of his wife’s violence towards he and their sons.
@ Abagond. If I’m out of bounds for this then I do apologize but since you’ve written about it yourself I thought it might be ok to link the post. I figure if people hear (remember) it from a voice as credible as yours then it would be harder to deny than if a random commenter spoke on it.
Also this;
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3PgH86OyEM)
When Solange attacked Jay-Z in the elevator people made jokes, memes and asked what did Jay-Z say to Solange that made her act that way. The only reason she didn’t connect on the strikes was because he blocked them. But then ask yourself if Ray Rice’s strikes were blocked or evaded by Janay Rice would that have made the situation better? Many feminists online were doing backflips and handstands trying to explain why the situation was “different” from “real” domestic violence and it was all a bunch of bull***T.
As a person that would not have been blamed for putting her hands on a woman, Beyoncé stood by and did nothing to restrain her sister. If that were Jay-Z’s brother swinging on Bey and he did nothing he would (rightfully) be called a fu.kboi lol
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Maybe we should not mention the word itself to continue this conversation. We know which word we’re talking about so perhaps go without referencing it? I’d like to learn more about this.
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My comment was long and I only used it in context but I’ll continue about your last question. If White people say the word it doesn’t bother me. But like most cultural appropriation once it hits the White mainstream it will most likely be considered cool. I don’t remember anyone White specifically criticizing the term but most Black slang and general speech patterns of Blacks are mocked by Whites so its safe to say that this is typical White appropriation.
My cousin had a birthday party a while back and she introduced my mother to one of her friends, a White guy. My mother simply stated “hello nice to meet you” to which he replied ( get ready) “well you knooow, the question around here is, are you about that life?” With the silliest tone imaginable. Like when a child first learns how to curse, making it obvious that he didn’t know how to use the term correctly and was simply the garden variety sheep/follower. My mother looked as if she didn’t even know what to say but as a woman who is no nonsense and never has been she said “honey i’m about this life, that one and the one before it” She was going to continue but my Aunt cut her off as everyone awkwardly laughed. I couldn’t help but shake my head because this is a term that I had heard since I was a child. I literally cannot remember a time in my life when people around me weren’t using the term and I don’t even use it myself.
This is the real problem with appropriation; Blacks consistently lead pop culture in terms of music, fashion, slang & many other trends but almost all of them are looked at as ignorant or repulsive when they’re exclusively Black. Once Whites appropriate them no one even implies a lack of intelligence and it becomes the coolest thing in the world. By the time Whites get to whatever respective trend they get to we’ve already moved on. Usually because its just old and time to evolve or because like the guy at my cousins party Whites have made it corny at which point the ignorant vs cool double standard starts all over again.
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^ Kiwi, I brought this topic up a lot, and saw a problem with it, but you told me several times that it is normal for people to call it as they see it, and that my point of view was somehow very narrow or intolerant.
Therefore, I got the impression that for you, it is not a concern for, say, Bruno Mars (who is basically Eurasian) to be mistaken as black or if Kirk Acevedo (Puerto Rican / Chinese) to be mistaken as white, as this is normal or natural for humans to make these snap judgements.
I have a Chinese-American male cousin (both parents from China) who married a Puerto Rican woman (2nd marriage) who would never impress you as being white (she definitely passes easily as a Puerto Rican Latino) but I could see how their daughter would often be mistaken as white, despite neither parent being white and the fact that she learned to speak Spanish fluently and is living with a Black male partner. My cousin’s first wife was Jewish American, whom he divorced short after their son’s birth, yet their boy, who was ritually circumcised at 8 days, sent to Hebrew school and attended his bar mitzvah, often got mistaken as Chinese and got ridiculed by Chinese-American kids for not speaking Chinese.
Maybe you should count yourself lucky that the ethnicity that people assume you are often indeed is the same or very close to what you actually identify as.
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@Kiwi,
You mentioned many times that your parents and / or grandparents grew up in abject poverty in Taiwan, yet your great-grandmothers had bound feet, which signified that she (or more likely her husband) was wealthy enough so that she would be a prized foot bound wife.
Did something happen in your grandparents’ lives that caused them to go from being quite rich to very poor during their lifetimes? Did they lose everything in some war (ie, WWII, or Sino-Japanese war) or in a typhoon, or were among those who fled the mainland with just the clothes on their back?
In any case, if they were once rich, that could explain their impetus (and social capital) to lift their kids out of poverty.
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https://www.change.org/p/amazon-stop-selling-hate-books?utm_source=action_alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=417263&alert_id=gjHQXTYVgH_YXR9doFXlOx6OIzvr7QVdAqZU%2B45Db69J7ettxgs47k%3D
This petition is for Amazon to stop selling a Hate book called, “I hate black women” and other Hate books in general. Just needs 13 more signatures to reach 2,500
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I singed the petition!
I’m going to vote, Canadian federal elections. I hope my party as well as the Jays wins!
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lol @ Herneith. I admire your enthusiasm. ^_^
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And just to correct ya…”singed” is spelled, “signed” ^_^
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@ Sondis
I signed the petition as well. All aspects of (Uncle) TomCoonery must be checked at every opportunity. No exceptions.
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I am not a citizen so I could not vote, but I do hope Harper is gone. Is there a chance for this happening?
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A,
Sorry for my late reply! So, to continue the discussion about the word I asked about.
First of all, apologies for not knowing the word’s original meaning in AAVE. I only know how it’s used among (white? Not even sure if it’s just white) so-called “social justice warriors”. It seems to be a term many (white?) feminists readily embrace because in their context it is used as one of the rare derogatory terms for men of a certain behavior/character. The only other I can think of is “neckbeard”.
If White people say the word it doesn’t bother me. But like most cultural appropriation once it hits the White mainstream it will most likely be considered cool.
I am not sure if it’s considered “cool” at the moment, mainly because it’s not used by white mainstream. Again, it seems to be a term only feminists and other social justice warrior use (and mostly online) in discussions about male privilege, sexism, homophobia, etc. As such, it’s definitely NOT used as white men (as far as I know) so the word’s usage is still not in the mainstream. So, I wouldn’t say it’s considered “cool” or part of a white slang – it is more used in intellectual (and pseudo-intellectual) discussions.
I don’t remember anyone White specifically criticizing the term but most Black slang and general speech patterns of Blacks are mocked by Whites so its safe to say that this is typical White appropriation.
The word is not used as mockery – but it might as well be because most people do not know it comes from AAVE. Among the groups I’m talking about, it’s not seen as a black slang word, so this might be why it’s not used as a mockery or to “be cool”. It is used to mock people (as an insult) but the word itself is not used in a way other AAVE words are misused by whites. (At least at the moment, and at least within groups I know).
“well you knooow, the question around here is, are you about that life?”
I don’t understand this, sorry. I am not a native English speaker and I am not American so this term is something I am not familiar with. I understand it’s a misuse/mockery of black culture.
This is the real problem with appropriation; Blacks consistently lead pop culture in terms of music, fashion, slang & many other trends but almost all of them are looked at as ignorant or repulsive when they’re exclusively Black.
Yes, I know. See twerking. See rock music. Heck, jazz music! See dreadlocks. See anything ever white people appropriated.
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My dear Canadians, the early reports say that Harper is gone and defeated. Please tell me this is true!
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@ Mira
I got a New York Times news alert saying the Liberal Party is projected to win.
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That’s great! That being said, as with any vote “against” (Harper) people need to realize that the new candidate is not perfect. (I mean, I have no idea about his politics but it goes without saying). I am glad Harper is out, though.
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@Kiwi,
Maybe the majority for the time being, but certainly not the vast majority. And many did so because they were forced to as multiracial identities were not tolerated by society. If you study the impact of Jim Crow, you will know what happened – people were forced to abandon their multiracial identities.
And It likely may not always be the majority going forward. Two indications to consider from the US census:
1990-2000: Asian, white and Pacific Islander numbers dropped precipitously in Hawaii, while the multiracial categories became the plurality (not unexpected from a place like Hawaii). Certainly many will choose to identify as multiracial if given the choice.
2000-2010: Mississippi had the largest increase in persons who ticked 2 or more or 3 or more races during this period, and it was NOT because they had higher increases in interracial marriage (which I believe should be the State of Washington). It occurred because Mississippi had forced people to assume a monoracial identity during Jim Crow, and on census forms until 2000, so once they realized they had the opportunity to express themselves without social castigation, they chose to do so.
And a fixed sense of racial identity is also not something that people carry from cradle to grave, and a sense of racial identity was always in flux, even during Slavery and Jim crow. People have been switching their racial identities throughout their lives throughout US history. Millions have done that. Anatole Broyard was certainly not alone. Mildred Loving marked “colored” on her racial category form in Virginia, but she was always outspoken about her being mixed African, Rappahanock and white ancestry. A fixed sense of racial identity throughout one’s life was not a given thing even during Jim Crow. And after studying a bit about the American Indian movement in the 20th century, I noted the growth of the concept of American Indian identity as more a political phenomenon rather than one based strictly on some fixed racial identity. Most seem to know and acknowledge that they are racially mixed.
So, I really do not see where you get this “vast majority” when it is a thing that never really was and will become less and less going forward in the future.
Contrary to what you believe, I fully acknowledge and tolerate your view about racial identity, esp. in the context of your experience. I am certainly not intolerant of your point of view. I simply disagree with your assertion about this “vast majority” thing, esp. in the USA, and ESPECIALLY going forward in the future. If merely out of politeness, it is better (in my humble opinion) not to assign a fixed racial identity to other people. Let them do it themselves. and let them change it if they want.
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@Kiwi
So none of your family is actually Taiwanese? Did they all come from the same province or different provinces? They lived in Taiwan for scarcely a generation (and by now have been living longer in the USA). Did most of your family leave Taiwan or did some relatives stay behind?
That might explain some of the attitudes that some of them hold in the USA. They had no mindset of going “back” to anywhere.
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Trudeau won in a landslide! I voted for the liberals to ensure this POS Harper was shown the door. The Liberals were more left of centre than the NDP. Oh, the Jays won too!
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@ Mira.
I don’t follow feminism/mens rights because while I believe in equality between the genders many of the figureheads of either movement come across as a bit crazy. As I stated before I really don’t mind Whites using it in any context only the double standard of critiquing the usage by Blacks but not themselves.
As far as “are you about that life” is concerned it more or less means a person has stated they are capable of a certain feat to which the person they’re speaking to replies “you’re not about that life” in other words they’re bull****ing about a supposed ability they claim to have. It’s used often in particularly hostile exchanges like the lead up to a fight.
If two guys are getting tangled up on the basketball court and playing unusually physically/dirty the situation might get heated to a point where both are seconds away from an altercation. I.E.;
“If you throw one more elbow when I come down from a rebound its gonna be a problem”
Implying he’s willing and capable of besting the other in an altercation
“N***a please, you ain’t about that life”
Not taking the threat seriously and firing back that the person in question is just talking tough but doesn’t have anything tangible to back up his words.
But its increasingly used in a humorous manner when two people are having a playful conversation. Some friends of mine were playing Uno and were jokingly trash talking about how either would win to which both simultaneously replied “you ain’t about that life” Lol
The inquisitive form “are you” about that life is a variation of the term but asking if someone is/isn’t capable instead of outright telling them they aren’t but sometimes sarcastically used to make fun of the person who made the initial claim in a daring put up or shut up manner. Hope I explained that well enough Lol
In either case he still misused the term because it only makes sense after someone has claimed to be capable of something, NOT when they say who they are. My mother only introduced herself to him which was when this reply came. Like most Whites who appropriate he sounded foolish and corny as all hell due to the misuse. My mother most likely got perturbed for this very reason and I believe she may have interpreted it as mockery-which is something she doesn’t tolerate.
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@ Herneith
Could you break down for me how the Canadian parties are positioned realative to the UK parties?
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A,
Thanks for the explanation! I think I understand the context. The word I mentioned is not used in this sense but I do think it’s appropriative.
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Could you break down for me how the Canadian parties are positioned realative to the UK parties?
Nope, google it!
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Problem with that is that one only gets their psitioning within the Canadian spectrum. So Harper is the conservative boogeyman, but should I rather imagine him as David Cameron or rather Ted Cruz?
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Kartoffel,
Why do you expect Canadians to know details of UK politics? Heck, I’m European and I do not know anything about Ted Cruz. Not saying that Herneith (or other Canadians) do not know the answer but still.
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US and UK politics are fairly well known internationally, thath’s why I thought I had the best shot with that. Bit unrealistic would be to ask somebody the same question in regards to Polish politics.
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This election was a complete rout. They would have voted for Bugs Bunny to get rid of that racist clown Harper. A great example of strategic voting.
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So Harper is the conservative boogeyman, but should I rather imagine him as David Cameron or rather Ted Cruz?
Why do people love to compare one ahole to another? Fellow Canadian Ted Cruz is in a class of his own as is Harper. Conservative, Liberal, Socialist, an ahole or aholes, do not need a particular political stripe to be one. I find there are two types of politicians, in general, the wealthy, privileged power seeking ahole or aholes who are ideologue martinets. The ones who are genuinely interested in doing their civic duty soon learn what day it is. If they manage to remain in politics for any length of time, they go their way without adhering to any one political ideology; in other words they are flexible. Many politicians are sociopaths, demons in disguise. It’s a matter of which one will do the less damage to you and yours.
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@ Kartoffel
You should maybe ask Lord of Mirkwood. He follows both US and Canadian politics.
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@Kiwi,
The US Census is hardly an accurate representation of how people actually identify on a racial basis or what races they recognize in their heritage. For example, nearly every Native American that I have met acknowledges that they are racially mixed, but they may just tick American Indian on Census forms. 2 or more races was not even recorded at all before 2000. Just because they added that category does not mean that people who acknowledge that they are multiracial will tick it, esp. if there is some social or emotional or political issue surrounding it. I am not even sure I would. And people switch too.
It is probably better if people tell you than if you assign them.
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I am somewhat conversant with British politics. The Canadian political system is based on the British system including ‘first past the gate’. Conservatives=Conservatives, Liberals=Liberal Democrats, NDP=The Labour Party. I am not a fan of ‘first past the gate’ as it is not representative of voters, i.e.; the Liberals only got 39. something of the popular vote. I prefer something akin to the American system whereby you vote for your particular candidate at each level of government as opposed to a particular party. The operative word here is similar to the American system, not the same. This comparison of Canadian and British political systems is a somewhat terse description; I do not enjoy long drawn commentary. One should be able to be able to simplify concepts, ideologies, etc., succinctly. If you want more in-depth details, google the rest.
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Thanks everybody.
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I would have preferred for Mulcair to win, but I can live with Trudeau.
So can the millions of broads who voted for him. They think he is a ‘babe'(I don’t).
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@Abagond
Have you seen this http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us/racial-disparity-traffic-stops-driving-black.html?_r=1
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Just watched today the execution of the theme song “Glory” from the 2014 film “Selma” and I could not help but feel deeply moved by it. I rushed to the Youtube and downloaded 2 versions of it:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUZOKvYcx_o)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9MKXR4gLjQ) (Oscar Performance)
and heard them more than 5 times each, in a row!!!
This is really a epic song and the events it refer to are equally epic!
Hearing it I felt a cascade of emotions invading my soul.
Some parts just trigger in me memories of the Beethoven’s 5th Symphony!
And there is the eloquence of the words coming from the mouth of the rapper Common!
And what about his connection of the Selma events to the more recent Ferguson shooting followed by protests?
Some of the invited to the Oscar ceremony could not escape blurting out a few tears! Powerful indeed!
Both, Common and John Legend are to be congratulated. Work well done!
You have done a good job in shaking and waking up consciences all over America and the Globe!
I hope to see the movie “Selma” as soon as possible!
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@Sharina& Leigh: Are you guys still doing TWD? Do you think Glenn is dead? I hope those were Nicolas’s guts. I think Enid is a wolf, what do you guys think?
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@Sharina & Leigh: Are you guys still watching TWD? I can’t accept that Glenn is dead. What do you guys think.
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@ villagewriter
Thanks for the link.
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@ Abagond,
What is the significance behind your new masthead?
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@ lifelearner
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Thanks! Abagond 😁
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I wanted to take a quick moment to say thank you. While Abagond’s posts are often excellent jumping off points, the discussions in the comments are equally, if not more, insightful. Several very good book, blog and podcast recommendations have been made by commenters and I figure those regular commenters also read this thread occasionally. So, to all of you that have made such suggestions, thanks.
Thomas Gray wrote, “Where ignorance is bliss, ’tis folly to be wise.” I get where he was coming from. However, I couldn’t disagree more.
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@Mary Burrell
I still watch and I am hoping with all I have that he is not dead. The problem is that even if they are eating Nicholas eventually they will have to get to Glenn. How will he get out? That is fresh guts to them so he could not use it to throw them off. On the other hand there is speculation that this is just Nicholas having a mental flash breakdown and it is not really happening.
On another note, what of Rick? He had little or no time to get out of that RV.
I have to keep a closer eye on Enid. Something about her does not sit right, but I am not sure if it is good or bad yet.
I wanted Morgan to return for so long and now I feel as if I might regret it.
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Pumpkin,
Did you dance to the coon train song in the YouTube link i posted? lmao!
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@pumpkin, why would they have a petition like that? America is as much black Americans home as it is anyone else’s. American society should change instead of black Americans leaving.
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https://www.change.org/p/drop-all-charges-against-spring-valley-high-students?recruiter=14520678&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
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@Kiwi,
Your statement makes you appear a bit clueless to the issues that multiracial people have to face. You should be happy that you do not need to (or at least have chosen not to) carry that burden.
You also put way too much faith and meaning into government statistics and documents. Did you know that my father is marked as being “white” on my birth certificate, but not in his marriage certificate? He did not even have his actual name or the valid names of his parents on his birth certificate. I had a hell of a time helping him to apply for a US passport or US Social security because of all the screw-ups.
Have you gone to the US Archives and poured over Census records? There is so much misinformation there, esp. on data such as “race”.
I used to work at the US Census Bureau too. There is a limit to how much interpretation you can make about that data, esp. social inferences.
I would repost Maria P.P. Root’s Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage, but I am not sure that you would understand some of the significance of its declarations. You would remain convinced of the “facts” you have fed yourself. *Sigh*
Also, to you, the problems of Jim Crow must look like ancient history, not something that left us with a multitude of unsolved problems, of which stuff like modern day multiracial activism (and other things, like the American Indian Movement) is only a part. And they are not only group movements, but affect individuals in widely different ways.
I would like to see more of this taught in U.S. Social Science classrooms.
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test
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Greetings everyone! 🙂
@ King (and anyone who knows)
Good brother, how are you? King, do you know of a history book that chronicles examples of intellectuals (university professors and other respected thinkers of their own day; excepting politicians) going along with and supporting movements that are now recognized as crimes and/or embarrassing and shameful social movements?
examples of supported things:
-slavery
-eugenics
-the fascist movements and takeovers of the 30’s
-mass incarceration (ok that is more modern, I suppose)
-those lovely postcards of lynched black men (and other kinds of hate art)
-pro Apartheid views
-mmm, and other horrible things which escape my mind right now.
@ Kiwi
Your comment above on China’s lengthy period of decline and stagnation was very thought provoking.
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Venting like a mofo. Omg, I b*tched out a white woman for touching my hair today at my local gym! Here’s what went down. Well, I decided to straighten my long hair this morning because I felt like it. My hair is naturally wavy – Type 2A. I put up my hair in a ponytail and I worked out. Afterward, I went to the locker room, and stood in front of a mirror. I pulled out the ponytail and fingercombed it into place. I kid you not. A white woman stood behind me and started touching my hair! She said, “I love your hair! Asian hair is always so straight and soft.” (B*tch, did you just touch my hair? Oh, hell no! Now we have a problem.) I was so angry she touched my hair, I told her to fcuk off. This has happened to me once before.
Anyway, one of the gym staff members heard me and she asked me what the problem was. I told her about the white woman touching my hair and she looked at her like she was an idiot. The white woman profusely apologized but I wasn’t having it. I said, “Would you like it if a stranger fcuking touched your fcuking hair without even fcuking asking?!?!” And she kept repeating, “Sorry, I didn’t know.” And I replied, “Now you know, b*tch. Keep your hands to your damn self!” And by the looks of the white women in the gym, they thought I overreacted because I made a commotion about it. Sorry, I don’t care who you are! NO ONE TOUCHES MY HAIR!! (Rant over)
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@ Legion
In regrds to the Third Reich the book Ingo Müller: Hitler’s Justice. The Courts of the Third Reich, Cambridge 1991 comes to mind. It looks at the role people of the legal profession played in the Third Reich, including their intellectual background and their post-war attempts to hinder justice. I don’t know if that book is known outside of Germany, but here it was a bestseller and shapes the discussion on the issue to this day. It’s original title “Furchtbare Juristen” (awful lawyers) has become a standaard saying in the context of criticism of the legal profession.
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Now I know why Angel Haze is my favorite fem-cee. She said she wants to “talk” to Raven Symone about her commentary on race lol
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/highlight/angel-haze-still-wants-to-fight-raven-symon-someone-needs-to-smack-her/56326a456f753a3110000365
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People are too through with Miss Raven-Symoné. After her comments about not wanting to hire people with ethnic names, and her more recent statement about the teen assaulted by an officer at Spring Valley High School, the public has had enough.
Wednesday, Che Scott-Heron of London started a petition urging Barbara Walters to cut the former child star from The View’s panel. Her petition reads:
Raven Symone has been spouting her ignorant and self hating spiel on the view for Long enough, from stating that she wouldn’t hire somebody for having a ghetto name, to openly complaining about reverse racism, the final straw was her comment about the recent viral video of the school police officer assaulting the student, where Raven Symone said “get off your phone in school then.”
African Americans and black people around the diaspora need a voice representative of their views and not a voice representative of what white people want us to say. We need strong black role models in prominent positions on television and Raven Symone cannot provide that. That is why I ask that we petition to remove her from “The View.”
Within 24 hours, the petition attracted 48,788 signatures. While we highly doubt Raven will be fired behind this petition alone, it may be enough for producers over at ABC to take notice.
https://www.change.org/p/barbara-walters-petition-to-remove-raven-symone-from-the-view?recruiter=14520678&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink
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@ Kartoffel @ Legion
A recent case like that in the US are the lawyers and psychologists who enabled CIA torture under President Bush.
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happy halloween
@ lotr i thought the marissa johnson thread was the wrong place to post this,
i don’t like open thread because it doesn’t show up in recent comments!
““What have I got in my pocket?” he said aloud. He was talking to himself, but Gollum thought it was a riddle, and he was frightfully upset.”
-JRR Tolkien
http://esl-bits.net/ESL.English.Learning.Audiobooks/The.Hobbit/05A/text.html
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@ Abagond and Kartoffel
I just posted an NYT article in the Just World Doctrine thread that fits in with the topic we’re discussing.
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@ abagond
I think there is a major difference. Dick Cheney can still come on TV and defend his actions and half of the US eats it up. The architects of Bush’s reign are still accepted members of society, not despite but because of their role. I think that seperates it from historical evils who sometimes are downplayed today, but rarely defended.
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A,
I like Angel Haze but I am not sure if I’d refer to them as “she”. I believe Angel identifies as agender, but I might be wrong about it. They are often posted on lists of non-binary celebs, though.
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I didn’t know where to put this as their isn’t a post dedicated to just BLM.
In L.A. their appears to be a split between the “old guard” and the L.A. chapter of Black Lives Matter.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-black-lives-matter-20151030-story.html
The Huffington post also picked up on the story.
“It is therefore, far more regretful to me that controlling the microphone and acting civil towards public servants whom have done our community grave disservice, is SO grievous to ‘our’ leaders that they call press conferences and post on Facebook to denounce it.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/angela-james/black-lives-mattertoo-muc_b_8436242.html
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@Abagond: I like the masthead many African Americans and First nation people came together and had families there is some criticism from other African Americans because many claim “I have Native American in my blood” getting ridiculed. There really was relationships of black slaves and Native Americans. I don’t understand where this foolishness to ridicule those black Americans who claim blood ties with native Americans.
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@ Mira
Yes you’re right thank you for correcting me. Angel Haze does like to be referred to as they instead of she or her.
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Abagond,
are you going to do anything on Anonymous outing the KKK?
they are planning to release the names of 1000 KKK members because they were able to hack into 2 of their internet accounts.
this will be a power struggle worth watching!
There was a release this week of politicians names who are in the KKK but Anonymous is claiming it wasn’t them and can’t validate the list
The real Anonymous is planning to do their real release of names on Nov 24
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3300936/US-Senator-Kentucky-mayor-forced-deny-Ku-Klux-Klan-list-members-released-online.html
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@ Mary Burrell – it’s just that so many claim what they cannot prove. Most tribes require proof to be counted as a member.
@ Ab – Do you think the spike in heroin use by suburban whites (prescription drugs are thought to have been the gateway) will be part of the war on drugs?
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@ Linda
It depends what Anonymous comes up with. I am not holding my breath. I remember they said they knew who Michael Brown’s killer was, but did not.
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@ Uglyblackjohn
No. The War on Drugs was never a war on drugs. It is a war on Black people:
White heroin users, unlike Black heroin users, are Real People, especially if they have good health insurance:
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@ Pumpkin
I have not heard of Rex 84, but of things like it.
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I have 2 questions for Abagond and I hope he sees and answers them:
1. In the Republican camp Ben Carson – a Black American – is now considered a very serious contender to the primary and eventually to next year Presidential elections. How do you see this development? This it means that Republicans have become less racist and are now more likely to accept a Black as President of the USA? Or is it because many of them are deeply religious persons (Christians) and Ben Carson’s personal history of “divine awakening” resonated with them? Or is there a more profound explanation for this development?
2. I notice that in the “Good stuff” rubric you have (almost) always listed the post entitled “Signs that your wife is having an affair” as one of the top posts you have in your blog. Why? Other posts come to that rubric and after while disappear from it, but that one seems to enjoy a particular “privilege”! Is the choice of the posts which go to “Good stuff”‘s list automatic, or is it done manually by you? If manual which are the criteria that explains the steady presence of that particular post in the list?
Thanks for the attention.
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Corrections for the comment above:
Instead of “…and after while disappear…” should be “...and after awhile disappear…“.
And instead of “…the criteria that explains…” should be “…the criteria that explains…“.
Sorry for the grammatical errors. I’m not a English native speaker!
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Should be explain instead of explains
Arrgh….
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@ munubantu
Good Stuff Is a list of those posts that have received the most page views over the past 48 hours. I do not have any manual control over it other than to set its length.
Ben Carson is a conservative Christian, a Seventh Day Adventist, giving him a strong appeal to an important wing of the party. He is the only one who seems to speak to them. Huckabee is a Baptist minister, but has never had much luck in that regard.
Like the Rented Negroes who appear on Fox News, he seems to confirm rather than challenge White Republican ideas about Black people.
I will start doing posts on the candidates who are highest in the polls, probably starting in December.
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Everything is going backwards or is that we are going forward but it feels the same as before since history repeats itself. I haven’t seen much coverage of this officer who raped black women.
http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2015/11/hate_crime_if_daniel_holtzclaw_s_victims_were_white_everyone_would_know.html
The jury is white no black folks, I will not be surprised if he gets off. Black women are seen as unrapable to them especially the ones he did this to.
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@ Abagond
“Like the Rented Negroes who appear on Fox News, he seems to confirm rather than challenge White Republican ideas about Black people.”
I have a hard time to believe that that applies to presidential candidates as well. I can’t really imagine an open racist supporting – not just tolerating – a black candidate even if he confirms stereotypes.
I always got the impression, from my limited exposure online, that the evangelicals are less racist than the Trump supporters or the establishment Republicans. At least they talk about race significantly less.
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@ Kartoffel
You are making the Black Friend argument.
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@ Uglyblackjohn
There was a very recent article in the NYT on the different institutional treatment being given to white suburban Heroin users as contrasted with institutional treatment of black drug users. It was emotionally hard for me to read; I only got through half of it.
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@ Abagond
I don’t think that Carson supporters fall in the same category with the people who claim the can’t be racist because “some of their best friends are black” (or some other form of non-white depending on context). Would an open racist vote for a black person in the general election if he becomes the Republican candidate? Probably. But I think the support for a candidate in the primary is markably different, especially when we’re talking about a non-establishment candidate. People pin all their hopes for the future on that person, can an open racist do that with somebody non-white? My instinct tells me rather not, but that of course is pure guesswork, one would need polling that comopares the racial attitudes of Carson supporters with other Republicans.
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@ Kartoffel
Are Carson supporters LESS racist on average? Probably. Are most Carson supporters racist? Probably.
White Americans are fully capable of being racist, even openly racist, and still be, say, fans of Oprah or Michael Jordan or Michael Jackson:
Some even marry Black people:
Madonna has a Black daughter, Mercy James, but still uses the N-word. That makes her openly racist even by White standards.
Ben Fields, the police officer who dragged and threw that high school girl the other week, had a Black girlfriend.
Etc.
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@Kiwi,
It is about freedom to express oneself, not about ensuring the USA govt has better or more accurate statistics. Even mass DNA testing of every individual might not effect that.
Now the USA is obligated to collect some kind of statistics. Even the Constitution demands it. The Census Bureau can never be shut down. What it collects and how it collects it can certainly change over time.
Have you learned about, say, Singapore’s or Malaysia’s racial identity system? Singapore’s was revamped in 2010. Do you think it is necessarily more (or less) reflective of racial or social realities?
I hope Abagond will put up his post on Walter Plecker soon.
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“How Clair landed in this predicament is a story of sloppy police work, unsavory government witnesses, incompetent defense lawyering and a sneaky prosecutor who helped to keep more than a dozen crucial, pro-defense facts from an overwhelmingly Caucasian jury. Yet this story is more than an alarming history lesson. Evidence shows that the same unethical, win-at-all-costs prosecution mindset employed against Clair 28 years ago continues to taint present-day cases in Orange County.”
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2015/11/linda_faye_rodgers_kenneth_clair_murder_santa_ana.php
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Agabond, please do a post comparing the treatment of the Chris Few case and the Tamir Rice case. A table with side by side comparisons would be very telling.
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@ Anne
Good idea. I was thinking of maybe doing a post on that, but now that you have asked, I will.
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I’ve returned, I guess. I found absolutely nothing that wasn’t either a) explicitly not for white people to bother with or b) something i didn’t already know.
I found white friends who are normal, but i should mention this has been the case since about a week after the post directed at me was up.
If a white person complains about anything that I don’t complain about, feel free to message me. I have a hefty patience for fools.
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Anyways, abagond, you should do posts on the following topics:
I’m not saying you should do all or most of these, just please do enough. Or at least form an opinion on some of them.
– Future Of Racism
– Future Of The Police
– Future Of POC
– Future Of White People
– Black “Hebrew Israelites”
– East Asian Jews (Kaifeng, Bene Israel, Cochin, Bene Menashe, Bene Ephraim, Bukharan Jews)
– Mizrahim
– Ashkenazim
– Armenians
– Persians
– Metis
– AngloMetis
– New Netherlands
– Anglo-Saxon England
– Nation
– Physical Handicap
– Mental Handicap
– Trauma
– Theatre
– Traveling/ Tourism
– Internet Celebrity
– Non-Ashkenazi European Jews
– Romani People
– Saami People
– Euskaran (Basque) People
– Khazar Hypothesis
– Birobidzhan/ Jewish Autonomous Oblast
– Samaritan People
– Video Games
– Nation Of “Islam”
– Religious Conversion
– Roots Revival
– Comic Books
– Animation
– Weeaboo
– -Aboo
– Subculture
– Hoboes and Wobblies
– Downshifting
– Ralph Bakshi
– Underground Comix
– Independent Media
– Game Shows
– Who Owned What Parts Of America Before Colonization?
– European Paganism/ Pre-Christian Europe
– Metal Music
– Dance Music (House, Disco, Funk,
– Folk Music/ World Music)
– Yeniche People and non-Romani Iternerant Europeans
– African Jews (Beta Yisrael, Abayudaya, Lemba)
– Attributive Thinking
– (POC) Stereotypes (masterpost for the blog)
– “Artist means Illustrator/ Painter.”
– Queer
– QTPOC
– Trans/ Non-Binary
– Disabled POC
– Resurrection
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I also have broken record suggestions for questions I have been asking for years and still haven’t gotten enough answers from (it makes zero sense to only get one from one source) anywhere. I know it’s okay if only one person responds at this point.
– “Do you have any solutions that don’t involve punishing me for my birth?”
– “But i’m only liked by horrible people and their willing accomplices!”
– “You’d rather I be in poverty, scorn, and danger!”
– “So i should be treated like a paroled sex offender even no matter what?”
– “So I should break my arm every day because you are an amputee?”
– “If you’re angry about systems, why do you take it ou
– “What benign and complete culture do I have?”
– “POC are not uniquely good.”
– “You expect me to control the universe.”
– “Why is wanting to be seen as a benign human by social justice and have benign associations fee-fees.”
– “You want to be a part of everything I have even if you aren’t my ethnicity.”
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@ Uriel
Thanks for your suggestions. While you were away, I wrote about the future of US racism:
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Pumpkin
“my lower back hurts.”
Whatchu been doin’? lol
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Abagond,
When are you going to write about what’s going on with black and brown people around the world….I know your focus is US but black people are dying around the world and white supremacy is ratcheting up…
The sh’t is about to hit the fan in Europe
the refugees bum-rushing Europe is the catalyst and they will be going into protection mode… there was a reason why Hitler was successful.
Paris just got attacked and the blow back is going to land in the middle east and Africa, and affect all the black and brown people in Europe.
WW3 is not far away… how will it affect us as people of colour
Israel has been killing black people for the last year… no posts, not a word… your tax dollars supports Israel.
European leaders just held a meeting in Malta this weekend, offering Africa 2 billion dollars in exchange for African countries keeping people from coming to Europe..
Europe has robbed more than 2 billion dollars from Africa… chump change
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@ Linda
I agree, a post on Black people in Israel is way overdue.
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@Linda
The 2 billion dollars for 20 countries is a joke. They still think they can bully Africa; we are waiting for their demands and any of our leaders who bows to those scoundrels will be deposed.
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ATTACK IN PARIS…
This is the main event in the news: a terrorist attack have just took place in the center of the heartland of Europe and the West. More than 120 dead with more to succumb because of serious injuries… And in this year, this is the second time in the same city, the same country and with the usual suspects!
In 1929 Sigmund Freud wrote a book entitled “Das Unbehagen in der Kultur” (Civilization and its Discontents) where he posited that the grow of the modern world in Europe had been achieved by putting aside and trying to ignore a powerful “force” that has being repressed until then: the libido.
Nowadays I think that the (Western) Civilization has created its well-being putting aside and trying to ignore a large part of humankind that sometimes erupts in acts of “inexplicable” violence hitting the Civilization in its core: the Muslim and Arab World are indeed “das Unbehagen” of the contemporary world since the creation of the state of Israel and the greedy exploitation of crude oil in the Middle East!
God save our souls!
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Do you have any intel connecting the Levi Strauss logo with slavery? The two-horse carts pulling the pants apart isn’t that how whites used to kill/torture black slaves? Help appreciated!
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@Abagond
I have always wondered why some successful blacks criticize Black Lives Matter and other movements meant to improve black lives. I did my research and unearthed this jewel. Check it out guys
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcJqjgB4tyQ)
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The 2 billion dollars for 20 countries is a joke.
That’s akin to them buying land from First Nations people with blankets and trinkets.
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“abagond @ Linda
I agree, a post on Black people in Israel is way overdue.”
Linda says,
for sure
and just in case you aren’t keeping up with world wide anti-black/brown racism
I’ll post a few incidents for you:
Here’s a nice and blatant one from Australia:
A video showing a group of African students being asked to leave an Apple store at a Melbourne. An Apple staff member telling the students boys that the store’s security staff were concerned they were going to shoplift.
“These guys are just a bit worried about your presence in our store,” an Apple staff member is heard telling the teenagers. “They’re just a bit worried you might steal something.”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR2PX97itSs)
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@Linda
Most White Australians are super racist and then white Afrikaners are super duper racist.
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villagewriter,
I believe it about Australians
but for some reason, they have a reputation as being “nice laid-back blokes” around the world, thanks to Crocodile Dundee.
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“The 2 billion dollars for 20 countries is a joke.
That’s akin to them buying land from First Nations people with blankets and trinkets.”
Herneith, Villagewriter,
no lies were told!
Here is a small view as to how the money was supposed to flow:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/475375/EU-send-failed-migrants-Africa-1bn-aid-deal-snubbed
“European leaders had offered a £1billion aid package. The fund would support projects to combat poverty, slow down migration and speed up repatriation programs.
David Cameron announced the UK would use £200m of aid money to help African countries tackle economic pressures, environmental disasters and corruption.
Ethiopia will receive £125m to help deal with its refugee population,
(which has soared from 90,000 in 2011 to 700,000 in 2015.)
Another £5m will be used to provide life-saving humanitarian assistance in Mali and Burkina Faso.”
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The Flipside:
Guess how much money France alone gets out of Africa as of today 2015?
500 billion dollars!!
and here’s an article that explains how France is still making it “rain” by taking food out of African mouths
“The article called attention to an ongoing practice by which former African countries are forced to pay a colonial tax to France – even today.
In fact, France continues to thrive on the practice, which extracts approximately 500 billion dollars from African countries each year.”
http://www.siliconafrica.com/france-colonial-tax/
As of today, 2014:
14 African countries still have to pay colonial debt to France.
In order to gain “Independence” from France, African countries had to sign binding “Cooperation Accords”.
through the colonial pact, African nations had to put 85% of their foreign reserve into France central bank under French minister of Finance control.
France has been holding the national reserves of 14 African countries since 1961:
Benin, Burkina Faso, Guinea-Bissau, Ivory Coast, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Congo-Brazzaville, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon.
France allows them to access only 15% of the money in any given year.
If they need more than that, they have to borrow the extra money from their own 65% from the French Treasury at commercial rates.
To make things more tragic, France impose a cap on the amount of money the countries could borrow from the reserve. The cap is fixed at 20% of their public revenue in the preceding year.
If the countries need to borrow more than 20% of their own money, France has a veto.
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France is the most evil European nation on Earth. They behave like snakes. (By that I mean the French elite)
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Kenya, South Africa, Uganda, Tanzania also have a lot of refugees from all over the world and now Europe is behaving like it is a problem that only affects them. SNAKES!!!
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@villagewriter:
Portugal and Spain could and probably do give France a run for it’s money.
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@ Linda
Thanks for the link on the Apple store incident.
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@ Pumpkin
Same here.
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@ Pumpkin
I heard about that.
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Kiwi, not only are white men entitled to things better than service jobs (except as stepping stones, felony punishments, exclusive qualification, and if the individual likes it), but so is everyone else. Service jobs like telemarketing or waiting are for robots and teenagers. Some service jobs like firefighter should be done volunteers or as a personal thing rather than an actual industry, or should at least become as well paying as something like an accountant.
That said, if somebody is acting entitled in a service job to random people NOW, they are indeed being petulant. I wish my agreement with you about that part of the issue was implied, but it’s not, so excuse my saying of it.
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Folks, I just got an email from PayPal stating I could earn five dollars if I sent five hundred dollars. What should I do?
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I’m not sure if that’s supposed to be a trick question, but I’d see about changing my email password first, then my PayPal password next.
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@Abagond
Thanks for following my blog. I need to post more articles.
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The sooner Trump’s campaign is derailed, the better.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3328786/Black-Lives-Matter-protester-thrown-ground-kicked-mob-supporters-Trump-rally-Donald-yells-Hell-here.html
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@Kiwi
So, are you saying that Asiaphilia is a real thing? What I have noticed over here is European mostly German women coming to marry Maasai men because they wear traditional costumes and carry spears and clubs (its weird I know).
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@ Kiwi
I heard. Trump is a bully, a liar and a racist. If he wins, CANADA might have to build a wall.
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Donald Trump is such a vile and misogynist and racist cretin.
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@ Abagond
That’s a big “if”. I still believe the GOP wants an easily controllable establishment candidate. Trump definitely ain’t that, especially since he’s winning over the virulent bigots and other loudmouthed red meat eaters.
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@ Mack Lyons
The Republican establishment is getting a taste of their own medicine with Trump. They are the ones who have made it into a billionaire’s game, they are the ones who have made it into a rank appeal to White bigotry. He is their Frankenstein.
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From Dave Winer:
http://scripting.com/liveblog/users/davewiner/2015/11/23/0404.html
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@Abagond
“The Republican establishment is getting a taste of their own medicine with Trump. They are the ones who have made it into a billionaire’s game, they are the ones who have made it into a rank appeal to White bigotry. He is their Frankenstein.”
Lol..they created the python but could not feed it. Looks like the python will be eating them.
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Meanwhile Israel mistreats African refugees. sigh!
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I liked what I saw in following CNN Internet page:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/23/opinions/ben-ghiat-donald-trump/index.html)
Here in this blog we oft see critics of the way White people (especially White Americans) do not seem to easily empathize with the Black experience in America.
So I’m glad to see that there are honorable exceptions to that rule as is the case of that Professor (Ben Ghiat; Jewish apparently… but White nevertheless!).
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Kiwi, i’m sorry for talking down to you. I stand by my points made, but i won’t used such a tone with you or other poc again.
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@Abagond
“They vote for people who make them feel good and powerful and deserving of love.”
While I like the rest of the article, this last statement pisses me off- bar the part about “they like people who make them feel powerful”.
Why do white people apparently deserve to be utterly hated or at least looked down upon by poc for what is merely an error in their birth? Why can’t at least some of us be seen as equal without giving up self-determination?
I know most poc don’t think that way, but most poc involved with social justice do. As well as most whites who are. Being not involved with social justice is a good sign the person is amoral.
This is dooming me to hatred by anyone good, i.e. benign at least, i.e. morally better than Eminem, for instance. How on earth is it feelings to demand acceptance from them? This problem can be solved in a matter of seconds by not seeing me as akin to Leopold II for existing.
You can’t say both “We don’t expect you to end racism tomorrow or in your lifetime.” and “Until whites end racism, they deserve whatever they get from poc.”.
tldr; Why do all whites deserve hatred and condescension unless they give up autonomy?
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I re-read the post about me.
Who would living like the Medieval English (or whatever) help? Me. Because within my culture I either don’t actually own it, or it is bad. How could it hurt to use what is ostensibly mine AND good? If poc don’t need to share their stuff, neither do I. I doubt every single thing I own was glamorized during colonialism.
Why am I obsessed with social justice acceptance? Because social justice’s literal only flaw is dooming me to be evil. Everything else is at least three times worse.
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This is what Trump’s brand of neo-nativism is leading to: http://www.startribune.com/several-people-were-shot-near-black-lives-matter-protest-site/353121881/
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Anyone hear, read about this potential time bomb?:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/teen-shot-16-times-murder-charge-expected-for-chicago-cop-1.2671869
Apparently this kid was shot sixteen times by the police in Chicago. The officer who shot the teen, has surrendered himself to authorities already. Apparently there is a video(s) taken at the scene. The police department has been fighting to keep the videos from going public. They lost so the video(s) are slated to be released today. I got this off a local Toronto news site so that they may be anticipating this as a potentially big story.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-cop-shooting-video-laquan-mcdonald-charges-20151124-story.html
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The four inch folding knife must have been extremely dangerous from 15 feet away!
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Here’s an excerpt;
Van Dyke is shown on a dash-cam video jumping out of his squad car and within seconds unloading 16 rounds into 17-year-old McDonald, lawyers for McDonald’s family have said.
After the first few shots knocked McDonald to the ground, Van Dyke fired another volley that struck the teen repeatedly as his body lay in almost a fetal position on the ground, according to the lawyers.
Police said McDonald, who had PCP in his system when he died, was behaving erratically and refusing police commands to drop a 4-inch folding knife. The police union has maintained the officer fired in fear of his life because the teen lunged at him and his partner with the knife. Van Dyke’s lawyer also has said the officer feared for his life.
Van Dyke, 37, has been on paid desk duty since the October 2014 incident.
The case would mark the first time a Chicago police officer has been charged with first-degree murder for an on-duty fatality in nearly 35 years. Van Dyke would face a minimum of 20 years in prison if convicted of the first-degree murder charge.
The charges would come less than a week after a Cook County judge ordered the release of the video, which Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s administration had long sought to keep out of public view. As Emanuel urged prosecutors to conclude their investigation Monday, he met with community leaders and aldermen to defend his handling of the controversy amid criticism that City Hall has not done enough to address police misconduct.
Ordered to release the video no later than Wednesday, the mayor called on religious leaders and activists to encourage peaceful demonstrations even as staff prepared for the public fallout and discussed the best way to unveil the video.
Federal authorities continue to investigate whether Van Dyke violated McDonald’s civil rights protecting him from excessive force by the police. A federal grand jury has heard testimony from dozens of witnesses over the course of several months.
The city lost its court fight last week to keep the video under wraps when the judge ruled in favor of freelance journalist Brandon Smith, who sued under the state’s open records law.
Lawyers for McDonald’s family, who won a $5 million settlement from the city even before filing a lawsuit, have said Van Dyke emptied his Smith & Wesson 9 mm semi-automatic handgun. None of the five other officers at the scene fired a shot, according to city officials.
McDonald’s autopsy found he was shot once on each side of his chest and suffered single bullet wounds in the scalp and neck, two in his back, seven in his arms, one in his right hand and two in his right leg. According to the report, nine of the 16 entrance wounds had a downward or slightly downward trajectory.
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@ Herneith
I heard about it too. I will probably be doing a post on it later today. Thanks for the links.
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Van Dyke has been the subject of 18 complaints ranging from using racial epithets to excessive force to illegally arresting people, according to personnel records obtained by the Invisible Institute, a police-accountability nonprofit.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/24/will-chicago-cop-face-murder-charge-for-firing-every-bullet-into-teen.html?via=newsletter&source=CSAMedition
A year after McDonald’s death, and on the day prosecutors are set to determine if Van Dyke should be charged with murder, the Chicago Police Department still hasn’t concluded whether or not the officer should be disciplined.
This cop should have been fired immediately, not given a temporary desk job. In instances where police are charged, they should be fired. Should they beat the charges, they can they can then try and get their jobs back through the arbitration process. The above quote is from the same article.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/11/24/five-shot-near-minneapolis-protests.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
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Meanwhile, Van Dyke’s wife, Tiffany, has set up a GoFundMe page asking for online donations for her husband’s bond. Although the page does not mention her husband by name, it describes him as a 15-year veteran officer “fighting for his freedom and justice.
“He is a highly decorated and respected officer,” Tiffany Van Dyke wrote. “He was in a shooting that has been covered extensively by the media and we ask for your patience for all the facts to come out in the trial. We want him to be home with his family as we go through this judicial process.”
The page asks for donations “very quickly” so Van Dyke can pay whatever bond is set and he can be home for the holidays.
As of 10:30 a.m. Tuesday, donors, mostly anonymous, had given $9,700 of the $80,000 sought.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-cop-shooting-video-laquan-mcdonald-charges-20151124-story.html
Didn’t take them long did it? Hopefully the judge set the bond for millions!
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@ Uriel
As I said in that post, you make it all about you and your feelings. That is not helpful. At least it is not helpful in terms of anti-racism. That kind of guilt is what gave rise to racism in the first place. Unless you question and deconstruct your own racism, it will just assume a different form. As it has in White American culture as a whole after the fall of Jim Crow.
Speaking for myself, I do not want you to hate or pity yourself. I want you to learn about racism and tell other Whites. That would be a good first step. I said that in My Advice to White People post and again in the post I wrote to you.
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Agabond,
Some people tried agitating by shooting protesters a BLM protest only to end up getting caught. There is a link at the end of the article that goes to the 4 chan email chain of the shooters.
http://wonkette.com/596372/white-dudes-shoot-up-black-lives-matter-crowd-minneapolis-pd-maces-them-all-lives-matter
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http://wonkette.com/596372/white-dudes-shoot-up-black-lives-matter-crowd-minneapolis-pd-maces-them-all-lives-matter
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@abagond
Why are you twisting my posts into being about “hurt feelings” and me pettily doing nothing. Do you think I am embedding a code or implying something I am not directly saying?
I am not making it all about my feelings. Why? Because not getting acceptance from the good people in the world is not hurt feelings. It is ostracism that leaves me with only irredeemable people (Bill Murray, domestic abuser) and their apologists like Lorne Michaels (creator of SNL) to be with, for things I, personally, have zero control over.
Social justice cannot say any culture I could possibly have is forever evil/ lesser or will always be evil/ lesser in my lifetime and expect me to like it in any way shape or form.
I never said I won’t do any work until I get my answers. I am asking all the while “Why can’t it be just (social justice-wise) to be seen as human?”. I can ask questions and do work at the same time. There is no need to decide. Your advice to me centered around ending racism, something I generally understand how to do and do in some extent. I do not know where is any good place I belong with people who do see me as human.
—-
I do thank you for taking seconds out of your life since some time ago to see white people as human. If you don’t know the answers to my other questions, just say so. I apologize if I came off expecting you to be the all-knowing one or something. If you don’t know about others in any capacity, I understand.
I don’t hate myself. Others hate me, and refuse social (as in further potential to be liked by others, not just by the individual person I wronged) forgiveness and in doing so doom me to be evil. Nobody is entitled to view me as pathetic and lesser no matter what, or at least do so and get a decent audience.
I don’t pity myself because the reason I complain all the time isn’t because this is the worst problem ever (nor does it have to be), but because it affects me all the time (as in not episodically) and can be solved in seconds.
tldr; I am not trying to pull strings or avoid work, I am asking for absolution in some form while I’m still alive.
Look, as I have said before, if you don’t wanna answer anything else, answer this: do you know anybody social justice-approved that’ll answer my questions?
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@ Anne @ michaeljonbarker @ Kiwi
Thank you for the links on Minneapolis! There is a good chance I will be doing a post on it, hopefully tomorrow.
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I understand racism can’t be about me 24/7. But I’m 100% positive 80% of whites think what I think deep down (the rest: 10% genuinely malevolent, 5% super strong and do not need others, and 5% will never be cognizant of racism).
Not only that, but the only reason social justice movements split is ultimately from difference in thought over what to do with privileged people.
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The video of Laquan McDonald getting gunned down by Chicago police is about to be made public, probably within the hour:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-cop-shooting-video-release-laquan-mcdonald-20151124-story.html
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The press is trying to download the video now…
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Agabond,
You have to read the link from the other article that goes tot he 4 chan email chain that these guys were using to plan the shooting. Scary.
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Oh, by the way, can I please not have an open letter directed at me again, Abagond? Please just respond normally or thru an email.
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@ Uriel
No.
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@ Uriel
All right. No more open letters.
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On another post, Kartoffel had made a statement that he thought Europeans were more racist than white Americans- but I beg to differ.
Here’s a blatant example of how ‘ingrained” anti-black prejudice is in the USA.
This white woman on the Maury show, found out she was part “African” American and fell out like her life was coming to an end!
DNA result came back like this: 15% African, 5% Native America, 80% European.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlhF8DTqhSs)
This young woman, Mary, thought she was part Cherokee all her life because her great-grandmother said she was Cherokee.
Mary is proud of her Native American ancestry and said “her friends did not believe her because she is her very pale and has red hair.”
She got her DNA results (the one I listed above)
and immediately broke down crying, stating “she is glad her mother is dead so that she would never know the Truth” that they aren’t actually “Native Americans” — but black
the great-Grandmother’s “dark skin” came courtesy of Africa with a touch of Cherokee
white Americans LOVE to claim Native American heritage, when in reality, it’s black African blood running through their veins.
that’s why Mary’s grandfather and mother told her that their family were “Native Indian” descendants, because great-Grandmother had to LIE and hide her African identity
I’m sure great-grandma wasn’t trying to get caught up by Jim Crow apartheid laws, since she married a white man
and now 50+ years later,this pale-faced, red-headed white woman, breaks down sobbing because she found out she is part-black/African descended (crying hard too) best laugh I had in years
f’king boo hoo hoo — too bad she can’t keep it a secret since it was live on TV
that in a nutshell, is White America: (anything is better than being black)
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@ Linda
If I recall correctly I said that I thought that Europeans are more opnely racist than Americans. That was meant of course as a general statement regarding mainstrem culture and media. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t masses of open racists in the US.
It also wasn’t meant as a measure if non-whites face more or less discrimination in Europe or the US. I am badly placed to judge that. What I can measure is how much racist talk is tolerated in the media and in social circles. And here it appeared to me that Americans have stricter rules what you can and can’t say about race issues. For example it completly baffled me that there are actual White Americans who deny to notice skin colour. Not just as hyperbole to emphasize their support ofr equality, but literally in everyday life.
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@ Linda
The poor woman! *sniff*
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@Linda
I wanted to cry with her but ended up laughing hard…I feel bad now.
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Nope, not even the Canadian one in October. Unthanksgiving Day sounds like a new holiday, though! Think I’ll start celebrating it!
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No it ain’t. i’ll have you know I do my civic duty by keeping the American economy going. I have been shopping non-stop on the early ‘Black Friday’ sales!!!!!
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Turkey isn’t all it’s cracked up to be anyways.
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Black people united together in Chicago protesting shutting down Michigan Avenue protesting the death of Lequan McDonald. They all became a monolith united together. I wish black people could get together for more injustices in this country and shut the injustice down in our communities.
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Wow, the Gods of Egypt were all White!
http://www.thewrap.com/gods-of-egypt-castng-diversity-apologize-alex-proyas-lionsgate/
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Something is really screwed up with the comment news feed.
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@King: In regards to The Gods Of Egypt casting craziness my take away on that is i find it strange they are just now apologizing, but why apologize at all. They only apologize in a “sorry not sorry” kind of way. I would rather they not apologize at all especially after the damage is done.
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@ Mary
The very fact that they have the kind of mindset where they wouldn’t think of it itself speaks volumes!
– Would they have cast a TV drama about Vikings with 100% Chinese cast and then say, “Wow, our bad!”
– Would they cast a Roman war drama with all Black Roman legionnaires? “Oops! we didn’t even realize that we were lacking in anglo diversity!”
Yet they can cast an Egyptian drama with 100% White people!!
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@King: Exactly.
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@Kiwi:
If it’s any consolation, I am seeing less of these pairings in Toronto here. I see a lot of inter-ethnic pairings such as Chinese/Phillipino, Korean/Chinese etc. I think the white men are losing their lustre for many of the young Asian women, either that or they are ‘waking up’ to what day it is.
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@Uriel @Abagond
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbdxeFcQtaU)
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@villagewriter
Thanks.
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Hi everyone, I only just realised there is an open thread.
@Abagond
I did a quick search, but I didn’t find anything.
Have you done an article on the Belgian Congo?
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Abagond,
I’m surprised you haven’t wrote a piece on 19-year-old Sarah Furay of College Station, Texas. Which the white media as dubbed her as an “adorable drug kingpin”. You’re slippin’ ^_^
she was arrested for alleged possession and delivery of 31.5 grams of cocaine, 126 grams of high-grade marijuana, 29 tablets of Ecstasy, an undisclosed amount of methamphetamine and 60 hits of LSD.
The Black Lives Matter movement, among other criminal justice activists, called out the hypocrisy of the media’s lighthearted approach to Furay’s arrest.
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@ Somali Prince
Aside from passing references, it is touched on in two posts:
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@Abagond
I am still new to this whole wordpress thing, is there any way to get notifications of new comments rather than having to press ‘F5’ everytime?
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Here’s the article about Sarah Furray.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/01/when-white-girls-deal-drugs-they-walk.html
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Anne,
I read about her on other sites but i would like to know if A Bro is going to write a piece. I like for his racist white lurkers to get twisted and make excuses for this one! lol
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Sondis
I will do a post on her tomorrow.
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abagond:
“I will do a post on her tomorrow.”
Sounds good to me….
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@ Mary
I accidentally deleted a comment of yours in the spam filter. You can resubmit it.
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Thanks for the link, Pumpkin
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@Abagond: Will you be doing a post on the shootings today in San Bernardino shootings today?
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Marry Burrell:
Oh no you don’t….I already put in a request, before you. 🙂
“sondis
Abagond,
I’m surprised you haven’t wrote a piece on 19-year-old Sarah Furay of College Station, Texas. Which the white media as dubbed her as an “adorable drug kingpin”. You’re slippin’ ^_^
she was arrested for alleged possession and delivery of 31.5 grams of cocaine, 126 grams of high-grade marijuana, 29 tablets of Ecstasy, an undisclosed amount of methamphetamine and 60 hits of LSD.
The Black Lives Matter movement, among other criminal justice activists, called out the hypocrisy of the media’s lighthearted approach to Furay’s arrest.”
“abagond
Sondis
I will do a post on her tomorrow”
Maybe he got behind as i don’t see that he posted it. ^_^
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@ Sondis
It is on its way! It should be up shortly.
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Awesome!! ^_^
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Miss Furay:
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Poland is one of those places where a black person is hard to find. Yet, the Polish have a Neo-Nazi group that is against black and brown people. They also don’t like the Jews yet many Jews are already leaving the country anyway. Sooner or later they will be left with the reality that they are losers and that is why they are not comfortable in their own skin. Anyone from Poland here?
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@ Mary
Maybe. It depends on how it shakes out. Last I knew, there was not even an apparent motive.
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@Uglyblackjohn
Got a few questions on your journey with rental homes. If you are interested in answering that is. Let me know.
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Have to admire these individuals.
http://urbanintellectuals.com/2015/12/03/black-activists-raise-money-purchase-village-johnsonville-moodus-connecticut/
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@ ALL
Do you think that the Zwarte Piet feature describe in the article:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/30/world/blackface-documentary-zwarte-piet-feat/index.html)
is indeed a case of racism or not?
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@munubantu: I have always hated that Zwarte Piet character and i think it’s racist. But the folks in the Netherlands where this racist character is advocated just don’t see how effed up this is.
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@Kiwi
You should check this page out. Been subscribed for about a few weeks now and guy is on point.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=940097696081710&id=100744900016998
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@agabond,
Here’s a story that might inspire you. Or just make you laugh a little.
The Bacon Story
Years ago back when I was in school, I took a home economics class. One of our classes was literally learning how to properly cook bacon. The teacher split us up into groups of two. I was put with a white girl who I was friends with so I thought the activity would be fun. We were each given some bacon and a single frying pan to cook on. My friend took half of the bacon and gave me the other half. She said that we would each cook our half on our side of the pan. I said okay. I thought it was bacon how hard can this be. She placed her half of the bacon on the pan and left it there and proceeded to talk. I did the same but also kept moving the bacon around to keep it from burning. She told me I was cooking it wrong and once again emphasized that we were each cooking our own batch of bacon. She delineated the imaginary line between our bacon to show they were different when she heard the teacher was coming to check on our work. Then her bacon started burning and she had to flip it over to keep it from burning completely. My bacon was fully cooked without burning. As the teacher approached, my friend quickly stirred all of our bacon together in the middle of the pan and told the teacher we were finished. No mention was made of us cooking separate pieces of bacon or the imaginary line in the middle of the pan.
The moral of this story is to never let your bacon burn.
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Daniel Holtzclaw convicted and possibly looking at a 200+ year sentence. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/11/daniel-holtzclaw-conviction-all-white-jury-justice
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@ Abagond’s: Will you be doing a post on Justice Scallia’s racist comment about blacks not performing well in schools where they may seem challenged more and they should probably stay in all black colleges/universities that he thinks the bar is set lower. His statements were very insulting. I wonder what Clarence Thomas thinks of this?
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@ Mary
Maybe. From what I understand, his comments were taken out of context. If so, there is not much to say.
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Since Mirkwood’s responses on “Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say”(but not anything else, including his posts) are starting to resemble issues I have with being good enough for most people involved in social justice.
Before I go any further understand I realize this is not nearly as bad as what poc and other oppressed peoples face and I don’t want poc to answer me as much as white people deemed good enough by most poc like Solitaire and Michael Jon Barker.:
Why is being entitled to be seen as enough bad? How does it hurt to have to give me and many things I am associated with respect (not deference) at all instead of scorn? Seriously, does it take longer than five seconds? If it’s wrong to get acceptance from them, is understanding an option at all? They will be the future history writers and makers. Why must I always be their enemy?
I know most oppressed people don’t hate their privileged counterparts for explicitly being privileged, think of them or their associations as lesser for being privileged in origin, or even try to antagonize them for other reasons that are ultimately subconscious prejudice.
I also know not enough oppressed people or oppressed people supporters have heard of social justice and therefore believe in nonsense spun to make people like myself feel like a deity and thus are living falsehoods and aren’t gaining my trust about many things. And a few might even be using for their own ends.
It is impossible to fix the subconscious, let alone a whole society in my lifetime, so why is it white tears to be liked? It’s not like most of the people who do like me are worthy of accepting respect from, as in:
Do you notice today most murderers, abusers, fraudsters, and thieves are white or at least privileged in other capacities? Even to other privileged people this is the case.
I know many are venting or joking or otherwise not saying what they mean, but many more aren’t and why must I be happy with being hated by many individuals? Moreover, why does anyone send me to read vents or satire like I’ll be able to understand everything because I have superhuman comprehension. Some really do hate me or loathe me but are horrible for other reasons (Dwight York) or are unpopular anyway, though I’m not referring to them.
My goal is to gain a shread of dignity and respect (not worship) in the eyes of the people I dignify and respect before I stop being an agent in my legacy or self.
I recognize my unintentional misunderstanding, melodrama, and miscommunications stem from my foolishness, naivete, and personal illnesses (Asperger’s, serious depression) and I am not omnipotent or omniscient- which is why I’m here for help (and because there is no non-bad forum for discussing oppression that actually gives me any leeway), but if anyone’s confused why do they “decode” my words instead of just plain asking for clarification based off ill said points?
I am not some superstrong island that can live with deserving (albeit limited due to oppression) scorn by most of the world.
tldr; If only the (metaphorically powerful) Manson “family” and a dozen others who actually aren’t bad like said Mansons cared a lick about you, you are not enough. You are a problem who happens to be tolerated by the strongest of the good.
Also, I haven’t found anything or anywhere that answers my questions yet.
Thank you if you have read this.
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EDIT: I meant St-pid* Stuff White People Say.
*St-pid is a slur because it demonizes those who don’t have a choice in their cognition or adjustability. It also assumes intelligence is universal. Please don’t be ableist and continue to use it.
I realize it is awful to utter and I deserve accountability for times I have said it, and I apologize to the mentally handicapped.
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For all blacks who think racists can change their hearts; good luck with that. Maybe this can help open your eyes so that you know what you are dealing with
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=XVw9UjHPEt8)
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@ Ural
You are over analyzing everything and making it harder then it really is.
You worry to much about what other people think about you. It doesn’t matter what other people think. The only thing that matters is how you act.
It is through your actions that gains repect or disrespect.
The default should be that all people are equally repected in society and not seen through biases. It is people’s actions that determine their character and from that respect is reaffirmed.
We have been raised to trust in authority. When we see a police office for example we belive that the officer has our best interests in mind. In reality the officer is no different then any other human. The officers authority is an illusion based on a construct that resembles a public superstition.
Do we see homeless people as having the same value as police officers ? Most people do not, even though their human value is the same. So a police officer can beat a homeless man to death on video tape and still be found not guilty of murder. That is because society values police officers more then they value the homeless. Their “authority” gives them privilages.
Racsim functions similarly in society. That why I’m using that example.
How you live your life is your choice. Choose a set of ethics and make the right choices based on values that moves humanity forward. See people as individuals and don’t make assumptions based on sterotypes.
It doesn’t matter if white people or POC accept you or not. Those are not valid reasons to bother worrying about.
At this point in your life you are looking for direction. Follow your heart and feed your mind and you will eventually find meaning.
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Since affirmative action is back in the news with the SCOTUS case I had to look up this rather unsurprising study about how white people view “merit” when it comes to college admissions. Namely, whites are perfectly willing to say “we should emphasize scores and GPA more” when they think it means judging black and brown students on “merit” but when they’re told that what this does is actually help asians at the expense of whites, they quickly change their tune: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/13/white-definitions-merit-and-admissions-change-when-they-think-about-asian-americans
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@ Pumpkin
SCOTUS = Supreme Court of the United States
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Probably within the next 24 hours, this blog will reach 200,000 posted comments. I will point out the 200,000th one.
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Will the 200,000th poster win a prize?
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@ Herneith
I will do a post of their choice (within reason – not something too personal or that would not be out of place on this blog).
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abagond
“Probably within the next 24 hours, this blog will reach 200,000 posted comments. I will point out the 200,000th one.”
I thought you would enter your posters into a drawing to win……A BRAND NEW CAR! lmaoo! ^_^
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Queen Serena Williams new Boss Chick Sports Illustrated cover is remarkable and the racist jack holes tried it by juxtaposing her to the horse American Pharoah. Even with their foul shade, Queen Serena still comes out smelling like a rose. She is GOAT. Greatest of all time.
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Finished T. Coates letter to his son “Between the World and Me”. I thought it had some great insights. I couldn’t relate too much to his world view being an atheist. I still enjoyed the frank honest of his heart and the great love he has for his son. The only critique is it being a bit too melancholy and depressing regarding destruction of black bodies. Still waiting on your review Abagond.
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@ lifelearner
Wait no longer:
Cut and paste your comment there if you can.
Thanks!
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^^ thanks Abagond. I guess it’s my Momnesia acting up again, lol. Will do! 😁
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@lifelearner: I was listening to on of my favorite podcast Another Round on Buzzfeed ta-meniscus-coates was the guest and he mentioned how lots of reviewers critiqued his book saying it was a downer. He made a statement saying when he is helping his son navigate through life he will not sugar coat things, because he said the reality of life for black boys is they could end up like Tamir Rice and he just doesn’t do the rose colored glasses bit. He said it wasn’t his job to make people comfortable in regards to his work. He said if people want to read something happy go look at a Disney movie. He was pretty funny and engaging. He said his favorite romantic comedy was 40 Year Old Virgin. And Four Weddings And A Funeral. His favorite cuss word was the N-word. I was a little disappointed in that because I hate that word. Otherwise he is an interesting person. He said if he was writing he would be delivering food because he was lousy at other jobs. He writes because he must he says.
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Abagond: You should do a post on Trevor Noah he’s smart and charming and very insightful. He’s an excellent choice for Jon Stewart’s replacement on The Daily Show.
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*one of my favorite * ^^^^ and *ta-nehisi-Coates*^^^^^
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Has anyone seen “Chi-Raq”? Was it any good?
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@Abagond
I saw it. I thought it was pretty good.
It’s basically satire. I think a lot of people misunderstood that it is meant to be satirical.
It’s based on the Greek classic ‘Lysistrata’.
Since you have an affinity for the Greeks, you’ll probably enjoy it.
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@Abagond
Maybe you have already done something on this, but wouldn’t it be a good idea to have a small section somewhere on how to add quotations, italics, bold etc. to wordpress comments?
I often find some comments hard to read when people don’t use blockquotes, for instance.
Might be useful to have a link somewhere for those just starting out.
I found a good link here:
(https://wpbtips.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/introduction-to-html-for-wordpress-com-users/3/)
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@Abagond: I haven’t seen Chiraq I will probably wait for it to come out on Netflix.
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Also Chance the Rapper came out to speak against it. He was quite critical of the film.
And then Spike Lee pointed out that Chance the Rapper’s father is Rahm Emanuel’s deputy Chief of Staff.
Yes, Rahm Emanuel, the mayor of Chicago, the same guy who fought so hard to stop the Laquan McDonald video from being published.
Kind of makes you question those who criticise the film…
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@ Mary Burrell
I get that about T. Coates. He knows he is a pessimist and that’s perfectly ok. I know it wouldn’t work on my kids. Yes racism exist, it sucks. But I’m not going to live my life nor advise my kids to live in constant fear about what might happen. And the book just gives too much into that type of thinking. It’s fatiguing, but there were definitely some great pearls of wisdoms throughout. Like traveling/the African Diaspora, etc. I give it a B- 😀
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The 200,000th comment was made by Solitaire to Jefe on the Daniel Holtzclaw thread:
As her prize she wants:
Which I will do.
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@michaeljonbarker
Apologies for the late post, I had some kinks to work out. Please do not decode this like Swank and look for “the real meaning”. I mean exactly what I say, if you have questions, just ask.
By the way, my name is Uriel not Ural. I understand you misread it or something, but your posts won’t show up in my notifications if my name is misspelled. I know I misspelled your name in the past too, so please excuse me there as I am excusing you.
“You are over analyzing everything and making it harder then it really is.”
How so?
“You worry to much about what other people think about you. It doesn’t matter what other people think. The only thing that matters is how you act.”
Here’s my logic process:
Good people believe in justice for all.
Social justice is where all or almost all good people are.
A widespread tennant of the social justice movements is “The privileged aren’t entitled to be seen as enough until they end bigotry”.
Bigotry will take a while to end.
Everyone should only treat acceptance from good people as enough.
Therefore, all privileged people no matter what are not enough, and won’t be in my lifetime.
I understand poc or other oppressed people looking down on me with matters regarding them foremost like bigotry, oppressed people not trusting me at first (but at least eventually), and doing work period.
I even understand and sometimes excuse demonization, hatred, or condescension from actual oppressed people not normal privileged people- because allies don’t suffer and have zero right to be impatient unless they, personally are being harassed. Moreover, I realize prejudice will always exist and many oppressed person loathing their privileged counterpart groups don’t always get support.
I’m solely asking to have acceptance and dignity for priviliged people be seen as more than luxury. I am not an island that can survive without others or only bad others.
“It is through your actions that gains repect or disrespect…”
You’re right, nobody should rely exclusively on intent or effort to make decisions, I can control my life/ safety, and acceptance should not be the one goal.
However, I think intent and effort mitigate offenses not remove them entirely. Many people are heartless toolsheds that don’t forgive over the slightest infraction, yet I’m supposed to like them. Even the worst offense should be forgiven by others if the offender is truly repetant. Why bother trying when only final effect matters? Nobody’s Superman.
I understand individuals I affected in the past hating me, but not them dooming me to hatred by anyone else good.
Moreover, I know I won’t die if nobody good likes me, but how is wanting acceptance and social justice contradictory?
(I know you didn’t say this one in the post, but I’ve heard it all to often before):
“Educate yourself and you’ll find away.”
I will never know enough. I also can’t ask queries to books, zines, webpages, or others (at least without getting harassed) if I get stuck. I get doomed to be bad if I make enough mistakes, yet I am expected to be perfect.
I know my meaning and purpose, and it’s not to be exclusively a footnote in somebody else’s story or life. I want to be a person on my own yet still be accepted (provided I do work).
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Also, I’ve read quite a bit. Far to many posts are just venting or other exaggeration I can’t decipher or posts explicitly not for me, despite being put on anti-oppression lists. I don’t like reciting them all because care rather little where the source of info is coming from beyond the oppressions and experiences the author has.
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@Pumpkin I’m referring to staving off depression and finding a job.
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My conditions aren’t a big deal, really, if anyone was wondering.
Also, i’ve decided to make a blog for myself and others not in the know about social justice. It’s largely under construction.
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Anyone want me to follow their blog? I figure i should become an educator to privileged people, but without charging money, writing the anti-bigotry script, or pretending educating other privileged people is a burden.
I’m gonna keep whinings and ventings here to a minimum from now on, now that i found an actual community for social justice queries. I understand i won’t be forgiven by everyone, but if you are among the ones who don’t like me- please don’t try to convince other people to do so as well.
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@ Uriel
There is a saying I have heard in diversity workshops.
“Lean into the discomfort.”
When a privileged person tries to learn more about the anti-racist mindset (or anti-sexist or anti-ableist, etc.), it isn’t always going to feel good.
Sometimes it’s going to feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s going to hurt.
You know how when you exercise a muscle, it hurts at first, but then it gets stronger? Able to bear more weight, run longer, jump farther?
It’s the same idea.
Try not to worry so much about whether good people are going to accept you.
Sometimes those good people may seem not to like you when they say things that sound harsh, but they’re actually trying to push and prod you out of your set ways and help you grow.
Maybe you can compare it to how a coach or personal trainer might come down hard on you if they don’t think you’re giving it your all.
It isn’t because they don’t like you. It’s because they’re trying to get you to lean into the discomfort.
It gets easier with practice 🙂
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@ Uriel
“I don’t want poc to answer me as much as white people deemed good enough by most poc like Solitaire…”
I don’t really think this is true of me.
Most PoC when I first meet them are as wary of me as they would be of any other white person. I have to prove myself. It can take a very long time to prove myself, and even then the PoC may never fully let down their guard with me the way they would another PoC.
I think that’s understandable. I don’t let it hurt me that I’m never 100% accepted because I know they are just trying to protect themselves. PoC are emotionally hurt by things like microaggressions every day. They have the right to do whatever they can to guard against such pain.
I also still make mistakes. I have been with my PoC spouse for a very long time, and I’m much better than I was when we first met, but I still make mistakes. Sometimes I still have trouble understanding what he’s going through, or I say the wrong thing, or I say something that isn’t helpful, something that comes from a white lens, from a white perspective, and from white privilege.
He doesn’t always get angry at me when I make a mistake, but sometimes he does, if it really hurts him or he’s feeling especially vulnerable.
He can get angry at me for saying something racist and hurtful, and yet he can still love me at the same time, and he can still think that I’m a good person at the same time.
He knows that I grew up in a racist world and from the time I was very little, through no fault of my own, I was learning racism from everyone and everything around me. He knows that when I slip up, it is from unthinking and unintentional racism. It’s because I’ve stumbled on another unconscious racist belief that I hadn’t yet examined and unlearned.
He believes this is true of all of us, including himself, even though he is a PoC. From the time we are born, we learn racism. When we are adults, some of us begin to try to unlearn that racism. It will take us our entire lives, and we will never attain perfection. But we can get better.
I don’t know as much as I should about Asperger’s, so I apologize in advance if I overstep any bounds in what I’m about to say. Please feel free to correct me.
What I believe I have heard is that individuals who have Asperger’s often have issues with decoding and interpreting the emotions of other people.
I’m wondering if maybe some of your stress about how you will be seen and whether you will be accepted is related to this?
A lot of the frequent posters on this blog use satire, irony, sarcasm, impatient language, harsh tone, etc. I could see where a person who has Asperger’s might be anxious about those types of remarks.
Would you feel comfortable in reminding people that you have Asperger’s, at least until the regulars get to know you? That way they can remember to check their own neurotypical privilege and try their best to communicate with you in a straightforward, nonsarcastic manner.
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@ Uriel
Thanks for laying this out. It is more clear to me where you are coming from.
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@ Uriel
The way I think of it is that no one who grew up in the US can ever be completely free from racist thinking. It is like being a recovering alcoholic. You do the best you can.
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@ Uriel
“at least until the regulars get to know you”
I’m sorry for the above remark. I just looked at the start of the thread and realized you have been posting on abagond’s blog for much, much longer than I have.
This is the first time I’ve ever looked at the open thread. I’m not subscribed or signed up for those e-mail new comment alert thingies.
I apologize for assuming you were new here.
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@ abagond
“It is like being a recovering alcoholic.”
Exactly. I’ve actually heard it called being a recovering racist, or being a racist in recovery. (You probably have heard that already too.)
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@ Kiwi
Excellent topic!!! Thanks for the link.
From what I know, Blacks in New York in the 1970s wanted the same forgiving approach, but they did not have the money and the White voters of the state thought it was too expensive (or at least their representatives thought so), so Black heroin addiction was seen as a crime instead. Crack cocaine – the same thing. Black public health issues became “Black crime”, yet further proof of their criminal nature.
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@Abagond: Yep, and that criminalization of drugs doesn’t actually help to solve the problem. But it does help keep Blacks down and out of the way, which soothes racist Whites’ prejudicial attitudes.
@Abagond:
Yes, exactly. The culture is so suffused with racist thought, that everyone absorbs it. The best you can do is try to keep pushing it out, keep combating one’s own ignorance by paying more attention and engaging with what racially subordinated peoples say and keeping one’s views flexible and evolving. But you’ll always get reminders of “how to view things ‘racistly'” and that makes the battle a constant one.
@Uriel:
Yes, and I admit I struggle with exactly this kind of thought process myself, because I do not think it’s fair to say that people cannot be acceptable for things that are not all their own fault: e.g. being privileged is not the fault of that person — they didn’t choose it, so they should not have any moral culpability for that any more than they have moral culpability for anything else they didn’t choose. It implies they can never be truly good, because of things beyond their control. However when I think that, I also think about that I could be wrong in how I am interpreting things, that I might also be projecting my own biases or my own literalness onto what is being said (are they really saying you have no moral worth, or is it sensible to say that because we can never eliminate the thinking, that what really determines our moral worth is the sincerity of our effort toward achieving it in ourselves, even if the goal is never reached? After all, absolute moral perfection is not reachable by anyone anyways), and I also know that Black people or any other group are diverse in their views on just what constitutes social justice, and of the moral judgments that are involved in its production and it would not be right to, ahem, “privilege” any one group of views over another in this complex and multifaceted topic, much less as a privileged-group member who wouldn’t be right to dictate to underprivileged people what they should think and I tend therefore to be cautious when it comes to such things. Better to try and see where they each contain valuable insights and points of truth, that’s the only real way to do everyone justice, imo, and to never take anything personally, as hard as that might be when you feel included by association. I might offer insights or advice based on what I see, but I always allow them to be rejected or critiqued when it comes to talking with members of underprivileged groups because they have first-hand experience I don’t, and justice entails them to have freedom to think what they want and not to be controlled by everyone else, in other words, the same freedom the privileged groups enjoy. I do, however, tend to push harder on members of privileged groups and definitely very hard on fuming supremacist racists where there is clear hate in their rhetoric (slurs, affirmation of common supremacist tropes/dogmas, etc.).
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@ Uriel
I have a question; I hope you don’t mind my asking.
Do you have a public library near you?
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Wow, this is really outrageous!!!
http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2015/12/22/florida-woman-dies-while-being-kicked-out-hospital/77772712/
http://news.yahoo.com/naacp-woman-dies-being-forcibly-removed-hospital-022119890.html
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@Solitaire
I do, what books do you recommend i should get?
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@ Uriel
Have you read Beverly Tatum’s book “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria”? If not, that’s a great place to start.
Then read the other books that are by it on the shelf. Look at the bibliographies in those books and find some of the material cited there. (You don’t have to read all of it, of course. This is just a way to let one book launch you on to the next.)
Tatum’s book should be in the topic area of race relations. Another topic area to look for is the history of various racial and ethnic groups (Ron Takaki’s “A Different Mirror: A History of Multicultural America” is a good introduction, assuming you’re in the USA).
Have you done much reading and research in books yet, or have you been trying to do most of your self-education on blogs like this one?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Sharinalr has asked you a couple questions, and you continue to disrespect her by not even acknowledging them. If you don’t intend to answer (and I for one would be very interested in hearing those answers), then at least do her the courtesy of saying so.
You Yankees do have manners, correct?
“Both men of whom you speak were anti-slavery.”
Slavery has nothing to do with the fact that they committed treason most foul against their king and sovereign.
“Franklin especially so, in the later years of his life. Are you that much of a clown?”
How much of a clown am I? Enough of a clown to know the reason you said “especially in the later years of his life” is because before that, Franklin owned slaves.
I’ll grant you that he changed his ways and even wrote an anti-slavery tract or two. But Franklin still was more of a racist than Angelina and Sarah Grimke, Cassius Marcellus Clay, or Moncure Conway.
“Also, the American Revolution inaugurated a titanic wave of abolition laws in the Northern states”
http://www.ushistory.org/presidentshouse/history/slavery-gw-oney.htm
“The constitution of the Vermont Territory (1777) prohibited slavery, but rather than freeing the enslaved, it required slaveholders to remove them from the territory. The history of abolitionism should not be romanticized; while the majority of individuals acted out of moral rectitude, others acted out of self-interest.”
“Legal slavery ended in Pennsylvania in 1847, freeing the fewer than 100 enslaved who remained. Legal slavery ended in New Jersey in 1865, the same year that it ended in the Confederacy, freeing the fewer than 20 enslaved who remained.”
“As President, Washington’s only official action regarding slavery was signing the 1793 Fugitive Slave Act into law…. It became a federal crime to assist an escaped slave, punishable by severe fines.”
http://slavenorth.com/
“When the Northern states gave up the last remnants of legal slavery, in the generation after the Revolution, their motives were a mix of piety, morality, and ethics; fear of a growing black population; practical economics; and the fact that the Revolutionary War had broken the Northern slaveowners’ power and drained off much of the slave population. An exception was New Jersey, where the slave population actually increased during the war.”
“Northern prejudice, and the inability of those states to assimilate their former slaves, certainly discouraged efforts toward freeing the slaves in the South. Having inadvertently freed the slaves in the state, the Massachusetts legislature voted to bar interracial marriages and expel all blacks who were not citizens. Boston authorities took action against 240 of them in 1800, most natives of Rhode Island, New York, Philadelphia, and the West Indies. White Philadelphians were rioting against blacks from 1805, driving them from the Fourth of July celebrations on Independence Square. Within a decade, the burning of black churches in the city had begun.”
Surf around in that website for awhile and you’ll see how many of the northern states simply recategorized slaves as indentured servants or sold the majority of the slaves down the river right before the date the abolition law took effect.
“There are very few wars/periods of history where morality is entirely black and white, without shades of gray”
There are no wars/periods of history where morality is entirely black and white — FIFY
“There is no comparing the North and the South. It is the difference between Gandalf and Sauron.”
Run that gem by any Native American and then time how long they laugh in your face.
“By the way, Solitaire, you can add William Wilberforce to my list of heroes!”
The list I’m keeping of your heroes has POC in the title. So far there are no entries.
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@Solitaire, and to a lesser extent mike4ty4
A little belated, but here goes. Please excuse my tone, i’m genuinely trying not to be whiny or condescending. Also, Solitaire can you respond in direct terms this time?, i think your last response was a little abstract and flew over my head.
1. I don’t mind that you saw me as a newby, since you know more now. It’s cool.
2. Why do you consider acceptance or at least being seen as enough as an entitlement not a right? Do i deserve to have my arms broken until i cure amputation? How do poc (for instance) get hurt by seeing any white people (for instance)?
3. I know poc calling me out usually want me to get better, but many don’t forgive until it’s too late. Moreover, if i am not expected end racism, why am i expected to accept being hated by any poc, accept being only in my lesser culture and not taking influence no matter how respectfully, and accept not deserving to have aspirations afar from social justice like painting (note: i don’t like painting, it’s just an example; my point here is many think all whites must be like John Brown who’s life was eventually solely dedicated to anti-racism, nothing else) until racism ends.
4. I am here, among other places, because there are very few places where i can educate myself AND ask questions if i get stuck. I will admit i originally came here out of a form white entitement (demanding poc for answers- apologies- i won’t do it again); but seeing as there other white peoplehere who are better at social justice than me, there’re interesting things here not completely related to social justice, and far too many people act like tools about ableism and need to be corrected- i decided to stay.
5. The only real things people have done in anti-bigotry circles that are ableist are a) assume i can magically get over depression issues like not be accepted, b) link, instruct, or recommend things not said directly, yet expect me to grasp them with ease and c) use slurs like cr-zy, st-pid, and r-tard.
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Also,
6) Most sources don’t give me any answers because a) despite the fact i’m lead to them- they are vents or indirect speeches not meant for me, b) just source what i already know (racism exists, white privilige exists) and maybe then proceed to offer abstract half-solutions that make no sense, and c) are for-profit and thus don’t deserve my trust.
I can go to the library, but how’ll i know if it addresses how to contribute to ending racism without losing things that don’t hurt other people like autonomy and acceptance let alone allow following-up if i get stuck? If i am taught how to think, why must i give up self and become just a part of a horrible mass and not much else, unlike anybody oppressed who apparently are the only ones who can consider themselves enough without completing a lengthy goal according to the people i see good.
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And two final things (for now):
7) I know anti-racism work can’t be about me, specifically, let alone any other white people 24/7. I am not trying to derail somebody else’s convo, i’m trying to get mine started as i believe seeing me as enough will take way shorter. So i only ask other whites who i think are generally assured in anti-racism someway, to not hamper poc’s lives or anything.
0) Could you please respond to my points letter-by letter, if you could? That way i’d know what you are referring to when you respond to points i make. I’m marking this as ‘zero’ because it’s more a guide query than a point being made.
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@ Uriel
I will respond to your questions and will address them point-by-point. It may be a couple days before I can do so, as I will need to think about how to best answer some of the questions you asked and also because I’m horribly behind in wrapping Xmas gifts.
Just wanted you to know I read this and I’m not ignoring you. I’ll begin now to formulate a response in my head and will write it out and post it as soon as I can.
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Okay, thanks dude.
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@ Kiwi
“What sickens me most is how Blacks who do drugs are punished as criminals but Whites who do drugs are seen as victims in need of help, as if Blacks are not like that, too.”
In the 80″s Blacks smoked “crack” and whites smoked “free base”. Both were cocaine that got “cooked” so that it could be smoked. There was a crack epidemic but not a free base epidemic even though it was the same thing. The crack epidemic was tied solely to Blacks even though far more whites were free basing.
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/10/busting_the_crack_propaganda_myths_partner/
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Here’s some odd trivia about myself.
Today is my birthday and I’m 54. My grandfather was born in 1896 a hundred and nineteen years ago. How is this possible ? My grandmother was 20 when she got pregnant from my grandfather who was 39 at the time. This was in 1935 and back then well to do whites either got an abortion (from their family doctor) or their was a rush shot gun wedding. My grandparents were wed out of town and the date of my moms birth was changed to look like she was born AFTER they were married. My grandmother took the real date of my moms birth to her grave.
My grandfathers parents were children during the civil war and they came from a slaver family. That makes slavery less like ancient history and a little to close to home for comfort.
I was raised in a Christian fundamentalist home and was pretty much beaten everyday. In my mid twenties I was admitted into drug rehab and it was their that I learned that beating kids wasn’t normal and that it was child abuse. I also learned that child abuse is something that gets passed from generation to generation. So it ended with me.
So here’s something to think about. We know slavers beat their slaves and theirs no reason to believe that they wouldn’t beat their own kids as well. So the cycle of violence in my family could very well be traced back to when they bought their first human being.
Social conservatives love to talk about “returning to traditional values”. About some myth that our grandparents and earlier were some how more “wholesome” then families today.
Based upon what I know about my families “traditional values” I hope we never return to that kind of social dysfunction and violence.
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@ MJB
HAPPY BIRTHDAY – MERRY CHRISTMAS – HAPPY NEW YEAR
.
I am glad you’re here sharing: your personal experiences, knowledge, insights and ability to access and profile others with pinpoint accuracy!
I may not agree with everything you say, but I certainly always look forward to reading whatever you have to say!
IMO, “traditional values” is much like “conventional wisdom”.. when you’re done unwrapping the package, all that’s inside is a bunch of stinky B/S.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Happy Birthday!!!
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“You want to re-fight the Civil War”
Not really, although it sure seems you want to. My top interests are as follows:
1) Your answers to Sharinalr’s questions.
2) Your naming a POC whom you consider a personal hero.
“just the two of us?”
I welcome all comers.
“I’ve poked around on Slavenorth.com and I’ll bet you dollars to doughnuts that it’s run by some Southerner trying to relativize the Confederacy.”
Tell you what, son. You poke around a little more and find me some actual proof and post it here. Why don’t you start on the section about your home state? That ought to be a good bracing read.
“In the end, that’s all that this is about: was the Confederacy good, or was it evil?”
Nope. I never once argued the Confederacy was good. Futhermore, I have no interest in arguing black/white either/or dichotomy.
And I do believe most of my points have been about the Union.
I was reading about Andersonville before you were born, child. Same with James McPherson.
I have a feeling you haven’t read past 1865. Try some research on Reconstruction and the Compromise of 1877, when the Republicans in the North betrayed the southern blacks for political gain.
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@ Uriel
I promise I’m not ignoring you. I’ve already started working on a rough draft of my reply.
You asked a lot of difficult questions that will take some work and thought.
Whereas I can refute LoM on my phone while sitting at a red light in traffic.
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@ Fan
I like your commentary as well. You mince no words and you make me laugh. You see clearly the world as it is.
I’m not sure about the pinpoint accuracy part particularly about myself.
I try to be as honest as I can because we are all surrounded by lies. When you get older, your back begins to hurt, you become more cynical and you’ll wake up on day with this epiphany that it doesn’t matter what other people think about you. The only thing that matters is the Truth and the people you care about. Everything else is just a distraction from the truth and an interference in how you care for your people.
A lot of my thinking is on the fringe for a WM so I might as well be an island. Its an open boarder community where ideas are welcome and peace is based on mutual respect.
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Oh, happy birthday michaeljonbarker! Also, happy holidays everyone!
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nah man it was the white rocks that was petrochemical reduced or the yellow ish was ether base you could get either if you knew the right people, the ether base was kind of a unicorn, etherbase did die out it’s too dangerous to make and everyone loves speed these days (yuck!)
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still smokin coke
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http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/236076-making-cocaine-hydrochloride/
i guess it depends on what brick but i think most of it was white from colombia et al. in bricks and cooking ether rocks would be ‘double distilling’ it after it was powder
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me personally? i’m talking about 92ish to 94 east coast
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“First, you’ll have to remind me what Sharina’s questions are, as I seem to have forgotten.”
Sorry. Do your own homework. I’ll give you a hint: they’re in the thread we came here from.
“Finally, I think you have an agenda, Southern boy.”
That’s ma’am to you, thank you kindly. And what agenda would that be?
“In a few comments, you’ll be pulling out a Confederate flag, singing “Dixie,” and trying to find a slave to whip while justifying treason. Y’all almost always show y’all’s true colors in the end! (And no, I don’t hate all Southerners.”
I’m sure we’re all right pleased that you only hate and stereotype most of us.
“Atticus Finch, no matter what the fraud of a book “Go Set a Watchman” has to say.”
Bless your heart. You do realize Atticus Finch is a fictional character? And how can a novel be a fraud?
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“The one I then proceeded to describe in detail, about Confederate flag waving and slaveholding.”
So you think I own slaves? I’m not sure I’m following your line of thought here.
“I know enough about y’all to know that that’s your way of saying “F you.” ”
You don’t know enough, then. It has many different meanings.
If I said to one of my kin, “Bless your heart, you’ve done more than enough; run along to bed now,” am I telling them to go eff themselves?
Although in this case, it mean something more along the lines of “That sure is pitiful, to be so confused. I do feel sorry for you.”
“People have been using fictional characters as role models since time immemorial.”
So you have a white fictional character as a role model, but not one real POC?
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“Oh, and one of my high-school English teachers was a transplanted Southerner (with EXTREMELY liberal politics), and he may have been the best I ever had. Understood?”
Sure. You “didn’t really think of him as a Southerner.” He was “an honorary Northerner.” He “wasn’t like all the rest.”
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“And what’s wrong with Atticus Finch?”
What’s wrong with having a real historical POC as a role model or hero?
“You seem to have a hell-bent anti-Northern, anti-abolitionist agenda, so…”
And yet somehow I can name dozens of POC heroes of mine off the top of my head, while you…
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“No less an authority than that Southern English teacher told us about the fake Southern smile (which really means “God, I hate you”) and things like “Bless your heart.” ”
And that makes you an expert, does it?
What does Abagond call that? Native informant?
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Abagond,
Article of Interest
Americans Held Hostage in Iran Win Compensation 36 Years Later
Buried in the huge spending bill signed into law last Friday are provisions that would give each of the 53 hostages or their estates up to $4.4 million. Victims of other state-sponsored terrorist attacks such as the 1998 American Embassy bombings in East Africa would also be eligible for benefits under the law.
But this year, vindication came in a decision that forced the Paris-based bank BNP Paribas to pay a $9 billion penalty for violating sanctions against Iran, Sudan and Cuba. Some of that money was suddenly available for victims of state-sponsored terrorism. Congress was also motivated by many members’ anger over the Iran nuclear accord.
Some of the hostages were subject to physical and psychological torture during their long ordeal, and many regarded the thaw as frustrating and premature.
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@Solitaire
I’m not ignoring you (as evidenced by my like) or being impatient or anything, i’m just gonna suggest you answer a few at a time (to speed things up) and to ask questions to me if you misunderstand something instead of “decode” or assume (for obvious reasons)- not that you plan on doing the latter.
Anyhow, in #2 i’m referring to the “If poc can’t, you shouldn’t either.” rule used in cultural appropriation and acceptance arguments, when i was saying the amputation analogy, just for reference.
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Does anyone or has anyone call(ed) Abagond “Julian”, his first name? It just strikes me as odd.
I mean, i normally use my first name in writing; probably because ‘Wastus’ by itself isn’t very catchy and i don’t prefer being called my full name.
No, my real name isn’t Uriel Wastus, i think of all the frequent commenters, only Michael Jon Barker has given his real name and maybe Mary Burrell.
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@ Ural
I give my real name because I have the privilege to do so. Many posters here have employer’s and are in positions that their true identity might cause them problems and I respect that.
Someday maybe some hater might try to dox me or if the political climate becomes more repressive in the U.S. I may become a target. I believe in standing up but know that someday it might not end well.
The things I say and belive in are important to me. To use my real name means I stand behind what is say.
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@michaeljonbarker
It’s Uriel, not Ural. I’m named after an archangel, not a river.
Kapeesh to the rest of what you said tho.
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Actually, abagond can you delete my last post as it was a bit ill-formatted (forgot to put my link in parantheses)?
For anyone who thinks Jews are all European white:
(http://reverseracism.tumblr.com/post/82592168758/hisusie-the-moderator-had-asked-if-i-wanted-to)
Also, note ‘Palestinian Jews’ don’t exist. You’re referring to the Old Yisshuv, Jews who returned to Palestine before Zionism in late Medieval times and are a mix of Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, and Sefardim anyway. You also might mean the Samaritans, who are Bney Israel (Israelites) not Bney Yehuda (Jews).
The answer people who are even remotely hesitant about condemning Zionism are trying to figure out is what to do with the Jews, as we already know the Palestinians have right of return. Few Jews outside of Israel want a genocide or a settler state. We want a nationstate that isn’t tied to one particular subset of us, or nationstates if the gap is too wide.
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Sorry Uriel for getting your name wrong. It might have been auto spell.
Uriel is the archangel for the North. Uriel represents the element Earth and it’s color is green.
Tradition has the four archangels representing the four elements and they face outwards away from the Earth to shield the Earth from evil. Their is a whole hierarchy of angelic beings under their command. It’s part of the theological geocentrisim of the dark ages.
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It’s cool if it’s autospell or plain forgetfulness. Uriel isn’t canon in a sizable amount of churches anyway. I was only Christian for two years, and even then it was a shallow Methodist church i went to exclusively because my friends did to. I behaved ill there and so my parents refused to let me go to the synagog when i was a youth and i am just now going to a synagog in order to get a good, uncolonial culture.
I chose the name ‘Uriel’ because i liked the sound of it and it’s the least known archangel of the 4, with very few people in the world being named ‘Uriel’ as opposed to Raphael, Gabriel, or Michael. Until five seconds ago when i read your post, i knew very little about them (i don’t give the archangels or other spiritual beings gender, it’s wholly unnecessary).
The Dark Ages is relative, and even within Europe it wasn’t all a step backward (such as in Spain). The Arab Muslim world flourished during this time, just to name one society.
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@ Uriel
Ok, here we go. Thank you for your patience. I’ll see how much I can answer now, and we can go from there.
“Also, Solitaire can you respond in direct terms this time?, i think your last response was a little abstract and flew over my head.”
I’m going to try. It will help me if you give me more specific feedback on which parts you find too abstract. That way I can try to rephrase it in a more concrete way.
I’m still trying to figure out how best to express myself in a way that will be conducive to our discussion. I’m afraid of making things too simplistic because I don’t want to insult your intelligence. It may take some trial and error before I get it right.
1. Thank you.
2. This is a difficult question to answer, and I may have more to write on it later wihen I think about it more fully. I don’t think that POC get hurt just by seeing white people. What hurts is that some white people do things to make POC feel bad. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term “micro-aggressions”? If not, we can discuss what that is.
But basically when POC go about their day, when they encounter white people, there is always a chance that the white person will do or say something racist that will make them feel bad. Most POC can’t get through a single day without at least one bad experience with a white person. This is very hard on them emotionally. They feel unaccepted.
So we start with the fact that POC do not feel accepted by white people, and it is because of the actions of many white people that POC feel this way. I wish that POC received acceptance from all white people as a right, but they do not. This is a simple reality: POC are not accepted by many white people, and they are made aware of their unacceptance by white people every single day.
If POC have to live with this reality, I don’t see why I should receive different treatment from POC as they receive from most white people. I don’t see why I should consider myself to have a right to be instantly accepted by them. White people as a whole do not extend that right to POC. Until white people begin to accept POC as a right, I don’t think it is fair that I expect POC to accept me as my right.
Now, it may seem emotional or illogical for POC to not approach each new white person they meet as an individual who has a clean slate. Actually, though, what POC are doing is something that is described in probability theory, if you’re familiar with that. They are calculating percentages and probability to determine the best tactic to take. It is similar to game theory.
Before I write this next part, I want to say that I only have a very basic understanding of probability and game theory. My math skills are very bad, which has kept me from understanding it in-depth. So if you’re familiar with these theories, please excuse any misuse of terminology, miscalculations of percentages, etc.
Let’s look first at an example that doesn’t have to do with race. I’m going to use some terms here that I hope you won’t find objectionable, although you can tell me if you do. (Personally, I proudly identify as a geek.)
So here’s the example: When I was in high school, I was picked on a lot. There were a number of different groups in my high school: the drama geeks, the science nerds, the pretty popular people, the sports jocks, etc.
Out of those groups, the sports jocks were the ones who most picked on me. Not all of them did, but most of them did. The drama geeks and the science nerds were far less likely to pick on me, although a few of them did.
Let’s say that in the set of students who were jocks, 85% of them picked on me and 5% did not. The remaining 10% would be nice to me if the two of us were alone, but if other jocks were around, they would pick on me with the others.
That means out of the set called jocks, 95% always or sometimes picked on me, whereas only 5% never picked on me.
When meeting a jock for the first time, I would calculate the probability as being 95% that this individual person would pick on me sometime in the future. I would calculate the probability as only 5% that this particular jock would never pick on me.
This would lead me to conclude that it wasn’t safe to trust this jock until they proved to me they were in the 5% that would never pick on me. If I were to immediately trust this new jock, I might trust them with a secret. But because they hadn’t yet proven themselves, because I didn’t know for certain that they were in the 5% subset who would never pick on me, then there was a 95%chance that they would later use that secret against me and tell it to the other jocks and taunt me about it.
Therefore it was a much, much safer strategy for me not to trust any jock at first meeting, and maybe not for a long time afterwards. If an individual jock wanted my trust, they had to prove that they were in the 5%. That was my strategy for playing the game of “how best to avoid having my trust betrayed and my secrets exposed and taunted by jocks.”
Something very similar is happening when POC don’t fully accept a white person.
There are no exact numbers quantifying how many white people are racist, but let’s use some as a thought exercise.
Establish that white people are a set. Within this set, there are subsets.
The first subset is 10% who are virulent racists.
The next subset is 85% who are unthinking racists. Within this large subset there are many, many subsets; there is gradation all the way from people who have a lot of subconscious unexamined racism to people who only have some.
The last subset is 5% of white people who are true allies and anti-racists.
Therefore, 95% of all white people belong to subsets that consist of racists, although there is variation as to the degree and severity of the racism.
When a POC meets a white person, it is logical for them to deduce that the probable chance the white person belongs to the 5% is statistically very low.
It makes logical sense for the POC to assume that the white person they have just met is in the 95% until that white person proves otherwise.
It is the best strategy in how to play the game of “how best to avoid having my trust betrayed by white people.”
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@Solitaire
I know poc don’t dislike white people by default, i was referring to being trusted eventually (tho not at first) and not being antagonized. I’m not above racism and neither is anyone, so i understand mistrust up to a point. Again, excuse my tone, i understood your point
Yet the following are believed consistently among sj circles:
1. If you are privileged and somebody oppressed treats you like garbage purely for being privileged, you have no right to hate or regret the fact. You must accept it as it could be worse and/ or oppressed people are entitled to be gits until they replicate actions that cause oppression in the first place.
[Why can’t sj at least let me loathe or condescend individual poc who do hate me or denigrate me? What burden is it to let me hate those who view me as worthless or worthful exclusively as a tool or a shining angel, provided i don’t antagonize them or stereotype poc? Can’t i foremost focus on my personal problems instead of throwing my life to somebody else?]
2. Being liked by unforgivable privileged trashcans and their current apologists almost exclusively qualifies as acceptance. It is fee-fees to demand more than them to see you as enough.
[Why do i have to be content with the scumbuckets who do like me, but are actually bad? Do they want me to be pathetic or an object?]
3. Collective responsibility should happen because collective rewards do.
[So i should break my arm not just because others are amputees but because an award winning doctor is among my sort? Just don’t even bother with me if i’m at best going to be an object.]
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*i understood your point about why mistrust is important.
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@ Uriel
3. You wrote: “I know poc calling me out usually want me to get better, but many don’t forgive until it’s too late.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “too late.” Too late for what?
“Moreover, if i am not expected end racism, why am i expected to accept being hated by any poc, accept being only in my lesser culture and not taking influence no matter how respectfully, and accept not deserving to have aspirations afar from social justice like painting”
Again, I’m not sure why you think these things are true. Maybe it would help if you could share a couple experiences you’ve had as examples. Have there been POC who told you that you don’t deserve to have any other aspirations than social justice? Have they told you it isn’t ok to also want to paint or do other things as well?
Even POC who are very much involved in anti-racism do other things, too. They paint or play musical instruments or write poetry or fly kites or practice martial arts or volunteer at animal shelters or play video games. If there are in fact people who have made you feel like you can only devote your life entirely to anti-racism or otherwise you are a bad person, I would say those are not people you should listen to. Those people are wrong.
4. I’m not sure whether you were looking for a response or just explaining your motives and thoughts. My feeling about what you wrote is that I agree with what you said. This is a good place to educate yourself, ask questions of others, and discuss a wide variety of issues.
5. These are all valid points. I have done (c) before, even on this site for the short time I have been posting here, and I feel bad about that. But I’m trying to do better, and I’m grateful that you have pointed out how this language isn’t acceptable.
I am also still struggling with (b), since I don’t seem to have a clear sense yet on how to distinguish between direct and indirect speech. I do understand that you may not be able to grasp things easily if they aren’t written directly. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s just difficult for me to figure out exactly how to modify my usual writing style, and I would appreciate it if you give me feedback when something I write isn’t direct or clear.
6. The reason I suggested you go to the library is that, at least in my experience, books are less likely to be vents and more likely to be useful than many internet sources. A lot of blogs that deal with anti-racism aren’t written for white people. Abagond even has a post saying that he doesn’t write this blog for white people (although he doesn’t mind if we read it).
But there are many, many books on racism and race issues that are written for white people. Those books are written specifically to help white people understand not just that racism exists but how white privilege and racism affects POC, what white people can do to help change the status quo, etc.
I’m not sure, though, how many of these books use indirect speech. I think there must be some that will be pretty straightforward and clear.
If you start reading something, whether it is a book or an article or a source on the internet, and it seems to just be someone venting or it is written in a very abstract way, you don’t have to finish it. It’s ok to say, “This isn’t helping” and put it down and start on the next book on the shelf, until you find one that is really good and answers a lot of your questions.
The reason I suggested the library is that I find books to be more helpful in some ways than the internet. There is a lot more information available in books, and as I said earlier, it’s easier to find books on racism that are geared to white readers. But there are also benefits to the internet, like being able to ask questions and have discussions. I think both approaches are good, especially when used in combination.
“I can go to the library, but how’ll i know if it addresses how to contribute to ending racism without losing things that don’t hurt other people like autonomy and acceptance let alone allow following-up if i get stuck?”
Well, this is where I would suggest using both the library and the internet in combination. If you get stuck on something in a book, come here and ask about it. You can say, “Hey, I’m reading this book and the author says such-and-such, but that doesn’t make sense to me because of such-and-such. What do you all think?”
“If i am taught how to think, why must i give up self and become just a part of a horrible mass and not much else, unlike anybody oppressed who apparently are the only ones who can consider themselves enough without completing a lengthy goal according to the people i see good.”
Uriel, who has made you feel this way? I don’t understand where this is coming from. Maybe now you are writing above my head; that’s very possible. So I’m going to try not to decode but ask you to explain more thoroughly and directly.
It is confusing to me because I have never felt that in order to be involved in anti-racism, I must give up my sense of self and become part of a horrible mass, that I must consider myself to be bad, that I must be ashamed of who I am. No one has made me feel that way.
Here is an example. I haven’t been posting here long, but from the beginning I have made no attempts to hide that I am white. No one has told me I should be ashamed of that. No one has told me I can’t post because I’m white. No one has told me I’m bad because I’m white.
Furthermore, I have also said several times that I identifiy as a Southerner. Now, that should be the worst of the worst, right? But only one person so far has tried to say that because I am a white Southerner, I am evil and bad–Lord of Mirkwood.
If being an anti-racist means white people have to give up self, then why hasn’t anyone else told me I’m a horrible person because I’m a white Southerner? Why didn’t Abagond ban me right away for being a racist slave-owning redn-ck cr-cker?
Do you see the point I’m trying to make? If what you are saying is true, I shouldn’t even be allowed to post on this blog. Therefore I posit that it isn’t true, at least not among ALL of the POC anti-racists.
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@ Uriel
Sorry, I was typing the second half of my post and didn’t see your reply to the first part until after I finished.
“I know poc don’t dislike white people by default, i was referring to being trusted eventually (tho not at first) and not being antagonized. I’m not above racism and neither is anyone, so i understand mistrust up to a point. Again, excuse my tone, i understood your point”
Sorry. You said that a lot of what I wrote was too abstract, and I didn’t know which parts.
But I would say that even being trusted eventually is not something anyone has a right to. That has to be decided by the person who is giving the trust. If someone said to you, “Uriel, you’ve known me for a long time, you should trust me by now, it isn’t fair that you don’t trust me,” they would basically be demanding your trust and telling you what to do and how to feel. It is your decision on how far to trust someone else. No one else can decide that for you.
If a POC doesn’t trust you, or they trust you some but not fully, that isn’t something you can change except by continuing to act in good faith towards them and hoping eventually to earn their trust.
And if you never fully earn their trust, so what? It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It may mean instead that this particular person has been hurt so much by other white people in the past that they’ve decided never to fully trust a white person ever again. They can do that. And if that bothers you, don’t hang out with that person. Hang out with other POC who accept you more.
“Yet the following are believed consistently among sj circles:”
Ok, I read the following and I completely disagree. I don’t think any of these things you listed are consistently believed among sj circles. There may be some people who act this way, and there may even be some circles that are entirely composed of people act this way. But in my experience, there aren’t very many.
I wrote about this a lot in my previous post (the second half of the first reply) and I can’t think of anything more yet to say here. If someone specifically has made you feel this way, perhaps you could share that exact occurence so I can better understand.
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@ King: I did read about that poor woman in Florida who was kicked out of the hospital and she died. I hope her family sues that hospital.
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TW: r-pe, a-use, m-rder
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@abagond
I’m not getting notifications for people mentioning or tagging (at-signing or hashtagging) my name, do you know how to fix this or anything? Thanks in advance and i also appreciate your patience for my semi-venting on the conquest post. I say semi-venting because i did expect an answer when i was furiously writing it, but now i don’t mind either way.
@Solitaire
Thanks for your help, unfortunately i’m quite busy atm, so it’ll take a few to generate my response. I believe you when you say i’m never entitled to poc full trust and it doesn’t make me a bad person (i’m worried mostly about people who probably or likely think i should never avoid hatred of this sort, which i’ll talk about later with my sources).
Also, when i say “by the time it’s too late” in regards to apologizing, i mean my reputation has already been tarnished and i probably won’t be liked by any sj circle ever again. I understand individual people hating me for my past actions here and elsewhere or wanting me to repent, but not them barring me from other people. I’ve yet to do anything permanent on purpose, so i shouldn’t be treated like a danger either.
I consider only permanent things done on purpose to be unforgivable by outside parties, like first-degree murder, almost all rapes, and deliberate abuse. Everything is either entirely forgivable by outside parties (and maybe inside parties) or a gray area.
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Also, am i the youngest one here? I’m like 18, and maybe Pumpkin is my age judging by how she talks, but i’m unsure and apologies to her if it’s not the case. I’m just curious. Also, i tend to avoid much sj stuff with people mostly younger than or exactly at my age because many young sjers are either hostily self-righteous or lazily uneven towards the whole deal.
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TW: r-pe
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I say almost all rapes (and abusive assault cases in general), because 0.22% of the time a rapist will be repentant, stay away from elevated societal status like celebrity, and leave the victim alone for the rest of their life, and the victim will forgive. Even then, the rapist still should be looked down on in some capacity. Also, if any one of those four conditions are not met, the only way to be forgivable to any extent after raping is to have it be forced of you or without your knowledge (somehow, but i doubt it).
If anyone thinks i’m being a tool, lemme know why because i am unsure about these rules i’ve set up, and i really am not trying to come off like rape should always be forgiven or should be expected or something heinous like that.
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@ Uriel
I will be looking forward to reading your longer response when you have time to write it.
“Also, when i say “by the time it’s too late” in regards to apologizing, i mean my reputation has already been tarnished and i probably won’t be liked by any sj circle ever again.”
I think perhaps you are underestimating the willingness of many people to forgive, even within sj circles.
Also, if your reputation became tarnished in one sj circle and you felt like you no longer were welcome there, I don’t know how that would keep you out of all sj circles everywhere. If you felt unwelcome at one internet site for social justice, then you could just move on to a different site with a new username. No one will know or care what happened at the first social justice site.
“I consider only permanent things done on purpose to be unforgivable by outside parties, like first-degree murder, almost all rapes, and deliberate abuse. Everything is either entirely forgivable by outside parties (and maybe inside parties) or a gray area.”
I understand your point. But please remember that some people may have a different personal belief about what is forgivable or unforgivable. Some people believe even first-degree murderers can be forgiven. You can only decide for yourself what should and shouldn’t be forgiven by outside parties. Other people may feel differently.
What I am trying to say is, granting forgiveness is another thing that cannot be required of another person. It can not be demanded or forced.
For example, if I said something to offend you, and then I was sorry and asked for your forgiveness, that doesn’t mean you have to forgive me. I can’t make you forgive me. I can ask you to, but it is up to you alone to decide whether what I did should be forgiven. Or you might not be ready to forgive me at the time I ask for forgiveness, but maybe a month later you decide that you can now forgive me.
If someone doesn’t forgive you for something you did, then there will no longer be a friendship between you and that person. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be friends with anybody else, just because one person no longer wants to be your friend. You might even have other friends who think the first person is wrong for not forgiving you.
One mistake does not equal total disaster. One person refusing to forgive you doesn’t mean that everyone else will now hate you forever.
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@Solitaire
0. I understand people may be more accepting now, my experience with anti-forgiveness is older, but more people seem to be embracing it.
Here’s some things i found on the internet (rough memories, no links because my comment will go to moderation), that explain my perspective:
“Shout to all the girls who don’t give second chances…” (Tumblr, unknown)
“White people are the George Zimmermans of the world and always will be…” (Tumblr, themindislimitless)
“There are no good White people.” essay (Tumblr, theteej)
“Dylan Roof And Why All White Hands Are Bloody.” (blackgirldangerous)
“[The SAE pathetics] deserve to live infamy.” (End Colonial Mentality)
“It’s just fee-fees to want a poc-respected culture or a positive identity.” (some Tumblr post regarding Homestucks and Ferguson)
“Racism, colonialism, and some other bigotries would’ve never happened had a non-Nordic society gotten all the luck.” (many places, including Darkmatter s**trichcollegekidssay on Tumblr, and this blog)
“England and France would be nothing without poc inventions, those culturals are morally awful without the technological forte to back it up.”
“BUT NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAT” essay (Tumblr, stfu***holes)
and finally
“White anti-racist is an oxymoron until you give up your white privilege.” (Kil Ja Kim essay).
1. I keep hearing about passive bigotry (ever heard of it, it’s when one doesn’t do enough work to end racism), which is why i mentioned being an anti-racist exclusively. I also here “intent and effort never matter, effect do” as if i can change anything but the two in future times.
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2. I don’t fully get the concept of cultural appropriation. Is it a burden for POC that White people want to be more than their current pathetic cultures? Even if such cultures aren’t evil, why can’t i take influence provided i don’t steal status (Iggy Azalea), hoard credit (Justin Timberlake), mock people (“Indian” costumes), or butcher serious customs (Plastic Shamans)? Culture can’t stay in stasis or exist purely of original thought or experience.
I keep hearing “[POC group] get harassed for doing this thing, WHY SHOULDN’T YOU?”, as if i am some supreme controller of racism. This is where i think the ‘broken arm/ amputees’ argument would be useful.
Cultural consent/ copyright also makes no sense, because i can’t magically take a poll to see if everyone is okay with something. Likewise, why is the term stealing used?, artifacts don’t dry up from POC usage because Whites used them.
Moreover, i need something that’s MINE and GOOD, yet not of anyone else’s- as they have things not mine but THEIRS and GOOD. If i don’t have such, then poc are uniquely good in sj eyes and i am lesser and pathetic. Why should i be unable to hoard what makes me a person?
3. Most poc want race to stay, because it has brought a great deal of people together. Understandable, but what race will I be? Even ridding the earth of White-looking people won’t redeem me, among others. I need to be enough, why is it such a pain for poc to give me dignity?
By dignity i don’t mean trust/ care/ acceptance, i mean genuine autonomy and positive identity and equal moral standing. Most sjers see this as a luxury, just read theroguefeminist’s posts on poc hating white people or trans people hating cis people.
Why can’t sjers who doom me to be nothing but worthless or evil be seen as bad by the other sjers?
4. Whenever i (obviously) dissociate from comments about systems of oppression (that aren’t about individuals per se), i’m always called out as if dissociating myself from things i didn’t do means dissociating from things i did do (“Stop being angry about the George Zimmerman verdict, all White people are to blame.”). I am (among others) uniquely to blame in situations of bigotry for my potential to do evil and get away with it(read that teej post) and my lack of suffering overall?
Anywho, thanks for answering, listening, and your patience. I was down as i wrote this, so excuse the tone.
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Oh, btw, Solitaire- my first comment is in moderation. It contains some sources of why i think cynically towards sj (but some have cursewords in them, so they’re in moderation), #1 (a question about passive bigotry), and general acknowledgement of your last statement.
Feel free to respond to the others first.
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@ Uriel
0. Thank you for sharing some of your sources. Now I see what types of things you have been reading and where you have gotten a lot of your ideas about SJers.
You probably already know this, but I will say it to make sure: People who are involved in social justice do not all believe the same exact things. They may agree on some points, but they may disagree on other points or on which tactics to use to end oppression and injustice.
A lot of what you’ve been reading is written by young angry people. Theroguefeminist is older than you by a few years, but to me she is very, very young. She is angry and upset and venting.
Do you know about the concept of writing to a specific audience? These people on Tumblr aren’t writing to you. They aren’t writing concrete, straightforward explanations of racism and other social justice issues in a way that someone with Asperger’s can easily understand. They are yelling and screaming and venting.
Now, I don’t want you to think I’m passing a value judgment on yelling and screaming and venting. That can be very useful for certain people at certain times. But it isn’t useful for you at this time.
Remember I said earlier that if a book isn’t helping you, put it down and find a different book? Put Tumblr down. Just stop reading those angry websites for awhile.
1. No one will ever do enough work to end racism all by himself or herself. It is impossible. And no one can do that type of work all the time and never do anything else.
Passive bigotry is when someone hardly does anything. That is when they don’t try to understand how POC or other minority groups feel. That is when they see racist things happening (like someone being discriminated against at their workplace) and they do nothing to help.
You are already being active in trying to learn about these issues and question your own mindset and your own thinking. That is where all white people have to start. You are only at the beginning, but you already are past being a passive bigot. You are starting to try to learn how to be an anti-racist.
2. Cultural appropriation is a difficult topic. There are shades of gray. A lot of American culture is already a combination of many different traditions.
What bothered me most about everything you wrote here is that you think your own culture is pathetic and evil. You don’t have to give up your own culture in order to support POC. You just have to stop privileging your culture, which is something a lot of white Americans do without realizing it. I think you already understand this concept to a degree. You know that the cultures of POC are valuable and important. But I think you’ve swung too far the other way. You now seem to think your own culture isn’t good and valuable and important. Am I understanding this correctly?
The term “stealing” is used because historically there have been many times that POC created something and then white people imitated what POC created and made a lot of money off of it. Elvis Presley is one of the top examples. He is credited with inventing rock and roll, and he made a lot of money. But he was imitating African American music.
Another example are the white people who take sacred ceremonies from the Native American cultures, like the sweat lodge or the Sun Dance, and they charge a lot of money to teach these ceremonies to other white people. These white people are stealing in a way, because they are taking ceremonies that do not belong to them and making money off them. A lot of times, they don’t even teach the ceremonies correctly. Think about how poor many Native Americans are. Now think about the fact that a true Native American healer does not charge people when they hold a healing in a sweat lodge. The healer does not set any price on that, but the white person who steals the ceremony asks for hundreds of dollars.
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3. and 4. I think with both these questions we are back to the same things I said up above. If the websites and Tumblrs you are reading make you feel this way, stop reading them. Not all people who work on the anti-racist cause believe this. There is absolutely no reason for you to give up your culture or to feel like you are less than nothing. It isn’t required to feel that way.
I don’t know if you read any of my posts where I talked about my spouse. He is a POC who has been professionally employed in the field of social justice for many years. He thinks that making white people feel guilty about being white is not helpful. It is not effective. When white people feel guilty, they get defensive and upset. But when they don’t feel guilty, they can approach social justice work in a positive manner. They can be excited to be part of a movement for change. They can become strong and effective allies.
He feels the same way about making men feel guilty about being male, or making able people feel guilty about being able, or making straight people feel guilty about being straight. He doesn’t think it has any value. He thinks it sets back the cause.
The people you have been reading would disagree with him. That is their right. Not everyone in social justice agrees with each other.
But those people you are reading are mostly young people spouting off on the internet. My spouse has been training majority people to be effective allies for minority people for longer than you’ve been alive, Uriel. He has many former white students who graduated from college a long time ago and have been in the workforce for a long time. Most of those former students have remained allies to POC. They support diversity in their workplace. They hire POC to work for their companies. They support POC colleagues who say they have been discriminated against at work. This is the type of thing a white ally does.
If someone is frozen with guilt, they cannot be an effective ally. Being white gives you privilege and power that you didn’t ask for. But you can use that privilege and power to be a voice for POC when other white people aren’t understanding the issues. You can be the bridge.
I hope you won’t mind if I give you a little homework. I want you to look up the term “intersectionality” if you aren’t already familiar with it.
I also have a question for you that I hope you won’t mind my asking. Do you hang out at any internet forums for people with Aspergers?
And as always, if anything I wrote here was unclear, please tell me. Let me know specifically and I will try to rewrite it in a better way or to answer any questions you may have.
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@ Uriel
Here is one more piece of “homework” for you to read:
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@Solitaire
1. I read the homework, and i am aware of intersectionality.The article, while not completely bad, just said stuff i already knew in a kind (support autistic POC) of condescending tone. Altho, i will say White minorites (White gays, disabled, transfolk, etc.) tend to overshadow, alienate, and antagonize POC in their respective minority regardless of how much the minority status has damaged them.
2. I don’t think sjers or anyone else for that matter wants me to be content/ not feel bad for pure compassion or respect, but rather because i can’t be used if i refuse to do anything. I’m not as cynical as to think everyone wishes to use me first, see me as enough second, but i am unsure of the amount of people who do.
You said many people believe different things regardless of a few staples that unite the whole operation. I agree, but i wish it was also atleast a near-staple to see me as enough and that i have a culture that’s enough (which brings me to my next point).
Also, if some POC know they’ve had a disproportionately negative or positive experience with White people (compared to POC standards)- why do they act like they are an objective source of White behavior and society?
3. I’m unsure what to think of my culture. Have you read Abagond’s or any other non-brainwashed POC’s opinions on European cultures or Nationalism? I want to like my culture (whatever it is), but i have a hard time finding anything i have that others don’t. If it is shared with everyone, it is not mine. I understand it when POC genuinely abhor stuff pressed upon them or at least not claim ownership of originally European things, but not that they can exclude me forever from their things while wanting to doom me to a purely negative unique identity.
I also want to take influence from other cultures in things i do, but everyone wants my culture to stay in stasis (read my convo with Swank on the cultural appropriation post) because “You have enough already.” and that broken arm/ amputation argument.
In additon White cultures and associations (before 1490, i understand hatred of White cultures after then) seem to never be important or influential to anyone but other White people, and even then only the brainwashed White people. POC cultures around the world have excelled in at least one thing technologically, scientifically, artistically, or morally. No White cultures anywhere have even been the jacks-of-all-trades, according to too many sjers.
4. I probably mentioned this in other threads but not to you- but hey; i try to avoid (anyone i think are) POC sycophants for White people (and oppressed sycophants for privileged people) or at least avoid discussing sj stuff with them because not only do i know i have little power to change their pov and it’s not exactly helpful to surround oneself in what is far from the truth, but also because i personally would rather be with people who saw me as a full human- not a god or something.
5. If being White, while forgivable and even understandable, is a bad conditon, and race must stay, what race will I be? If Europeans just reverted back to ethnicities after racism everyone would know they were White before so a stigma would be attached. Moreover, how’d i (or other White people) be absoluted from a bad legacy if racism ended after my time and i failed to be impacting despite my best efforts?
6. I know most sj Tumblrites and sjer independent bloggers see privileged people as lesser. They still get tons of influence and support instead of being ignored, and those who ignore them still think i can’t hate anyone for hating me purely on the basis of my birth, because it is somehow contradictory to support anti-bigotry and not tolerate being hated for arbitrary nonsense. Read stuff against “fake allies”, like the things by Kat Blaque (who i personally respect in other points).
I don’t know what to think about most of the worrisome opinions i’ve presented and i am coming to you for your opinion on them, not because i believe them or that (usually) many do. Any mistakes, confusion, or rudeness, lemme know. Thanks for reading.
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@ Uriel
“1. I read the homework, and i am aware of intersectionality.The article, while not completely bad, just said stuff i already knew in a kind (support autistic POC) of condescending tone.”
Sorry about that. The reason I pointed you to intersectionality is that I have found many people who keep this in mind are less judgmental of others and less likely to try to compete in the Oppression Olympics.
“Altho, i will say White minorites (White gays, disabled, transfolk, etc.) tend to overshadow, alienate, and antagonize POC in their respective minority regardless of how much the minority status has damaged them.”
I agree, and I see this as a place where white members of non-racial minorities can really be valuable as allies to the POC in those groups.
2. “You said many people believe different things regardless of a few staples that unite the whole operation. I agree, but i wish it was also atleast a near-staple to see me as enough and that i have a culture that’s enough”
Unfortunately it isn’t a near staple, although again I do think that the people who stress intersectionality are more likely to not pass judgment. But this is also where we seem to keep hitting the stumbling block that POC are seen by most white people as not enough and their culture(s) as not enough. They have to deal with this all the time, so they aren’t going to be very sympathetic to a white person getting upset when they turn the tables. And I know this gets us back to your analogy about the amputations. I guess the way I think about this is, when POC tell me that my culture is horrible, that’s my chance to experience what it’s like for them all the time. It helps me to understand what it’s like to always have other people denigrating one’s culture. However, it doesn’t mean that I internalize everything they say and go away feeling guilty and hating myself.
I think the key thing is, no one else can give you a core sense of who you are and what is valuable about yourself or your culture. That is something you must create for yourself from within.
You need to feel okay about yourself without any outside validation. That may involve deciding what parts of your culture are okay and what parts aren’t. There’s a lot to be ashamed of about white culture and white history, especially since the 1400s. But there’s also some things that are good, and you can hold onto those things. No one people and/or culture is 100% evil and no one people and/or culture is 100% good.
“Also, if some POC know they’ve had a disproportionately negative or positive experience with White people (compared to POC standards)- why do they act like they are an objective source of White behavior and society?”
Well, we could turn that around and ask the same thing of white people. Why do so many white people act like they are an objective source of POC behavior and society?
I hope this doesn’t come off as condescending, but the first thing that came to my mind in answer is, “That’s what neurotypical people do. We are irrational about a lot of stuff, and we often have difficulty seeing how we are being irrational even when someone else is trying to point it out to us.”
The second thing that came to my mind in answer is, I don’t really have an answer. I don’t know why some people act that way, and I can’t change that they do. What I can do is to listen carefully to what they say and think about it for a long time and see if any of it begins to make sense to me. I may find that some of what they had to say does have a lot of truth to it.
3. I think that I might be able to understand this better with some concrete examples. What are some of the things that your culture has in common with other cultures and therefore don’t feel distinct? What are some of the things you would like to borrow from other cultures, and in what ways (i.e., do you just want to consume those things, like listen to the music, or do you want to create your own things that incorporate those cultural influences)?
“In additon White cultures and associations (before 1490, i understand hatred of White cultures after then) seem to never be important or influential to anyone but other White people, and even then only the brainwashed White people. POC cultures around the world have excelled in at least one thing technologically, scientifically, artistically, or morally. No White cultures anywhere have even been the jacks-of-all-trades, according to too many sjers.”
You know, I think what you’ve been experiencing here is pushback. White people have been making themselves out to be the most important and influential for a long time, and now there is pushback from POC to acknowledge their contributions and accomplishments. There is nothing wrong with that pushback; it is helping to correct a long-standing imbalance and creating a better picture of world history. But that doesn’t mean that POC don’t believe white people have never been important. Have you read the article Abagond wrote on Alan Turing, for instance?
“5. If being White, while forgivable and even understandable, is a bad conditon, and race must stay, what race will I be? If Europeans just reverted back to ethnicities after racism everyone would know they were White before so a stigma would be attached. Moreover, how’d i (or other White people) be absoluted from a bad legacy if racism ended after my time and i failed to be impacting despite my best efforts?”
This is another place where I simply disagree with the underlying premise. I don’t think being white is a bad condition in and of itself. No one chooses to be born white. It is what each individual person does with being white, with their white privilege, that matters. So again I don’t fully understand why you are so bothered by this question. There’s no need to damn yourself, and there’s no need to seek absolution from POC.
Do you think this way about able people or neurotypical people? Is being able a bad condition, something that should be eradicated? Or is it their mindset that needs to be changed? Do they simply need to be better educated about disability issues, more aware of the prejudice people with disabilities face, and more willing to act as allies when appropriate?
“6. I know most sj Tumblrites and sjer independent bloggers see privileged people as lesser. They still get tons of influence and support instead of being ignored, and those who ignore them still think i can’t hate anyone for hating me purely on the basis of my birth, because it is somehow contradictory to support anti-bigotry and not tolerate being hated for arbitrary nonsense.”
But do they really hate you as an individual? I don’t think that’s likely. And I also think a lot of the writings aren’t supposed to be read as talking about everyone.
“Read stuff against “fake allies”, like the things by Kat Blaque (who i personally respect in other points).”
I watched the video and I agree with everything she said. I’m actually confused about where there was anything about hating someone just for how they were born. She was calling out specific types of “allies” who are superficial and not really comprehending the cause. She did say that there were true allies. And I think the key thing she said was, “We have to start holding our allies accountable — and if there’s one thing that I’ve learned from the discourse around my previous video, it’s that real allies will expect that. . . . Hold your allies accountable; if they really care, they won’t mind.”
Also, in the comments she said: “My approach is always first and foremost accepting that these people WILL make mistakes because of their ignorance. I ultimately think that’s something we should all keep in mind. People make mistakes and I think some space should be made for that. HOWEVER, it’s important to watch how they respond to these conversations and how they respond to criticism when they’ve stepped out of line. Someone who’s genuinely engaged enough in their activism will realize that a person you’re supporting criticizing how you perpetuate hurtful things around them is just part of the game. It comes with the territory and listening is required when you’re an ally. Some people cannot take their egos out of these things and to me that’s the problem. If you really care you’re going to step back and do the right thing.”
So she’s saying that majority people can in fact be allies, and even they will sometimes make mistakes, and how they respond to criticism of those mistakes is key in determining that they’re a true ally.
I hope some of this helps. I will look forward to reading your response.
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@Solitaire
1. I agree about not being a tool when called out. But then again people usually act like tools as a) reflexive gut reaction that while changeable, isn’t exactly and b) because they are never forgiven for anything in sj circles.
Those only calling for accountability, strike me as the kind of people that hold grudges and would rather doom me than see me as human with any flaws at all.
I know intent and effort don’t fix everything, but they’re all i can control. It is just heartless to only care about the effect. That is asking me to be superhuman for one’s own pride. Most people don’t think i can fix everything in my lifetime or expect me to, but few sjers will tote forgiveness as a condition. I’m underestimating it because i’ve rarely seen it happen.
I have NO empathy for those who hate me for things not ultimately my fault, beyond the fact they shouldn’t be oppressed and that they don’t deserve to have things like prions happen to them.
Kat Blaque (among others) did say allies will make mistakes, but she never said anyone anywhere will forgive them. I understand individual hatred, but not exclusion for mistakes.
2. Please don’t use buzzwords or repeat words with relatively plain definitions (pushback, discomfort) unless you’re signalling a different meaning than what is normally used; in which case please explain because as of this moment i am profoundly unaware of what you’re referring to with the pushback argument and “lean into discomfort”. My sources of info for words and phrases are Wiktionary and Urban Dictionary, and when none of them describe certain sj stuff, i’m at a blank.
Protagonize upcoming here is a word i probably didn’t coin that means “to outwardly support”, the antonym of “antagonize”.
3. Part of why i am frustrated with privileged people being hated is because, i, as an autistic person, don’t hate allistics. I don’t even protagonize the people or ideas that do. Neither does any other autistic i know, and they don’t consider it hurt feelings to be doomed to be evil for things beyond one’s control. We also don’t (usually, we’re not perfect) follow the broken arm fallacy.
Moreover, while my experience personally with allistics has been comparatively good by autistic oppressions standards, other people i know and knew have has rough times with such- but at least when it came to the point of eternal mistrust they knew it was not something on every allistic’s part.
The few autistics i’ve met that are sycophants, or total anti-allistics have either incredible flaws of their own or are seen as extreme by other autistics. When i actually exerience ableism, my first priority is making sure they don’t act that way again or at least get punished for it. I won’t ever antagonize somebody or protagonize antagonizers for things beyond their control. I am sick of being seriously told to suck it up when it comes to doom.
4. I know Whites shouldn’t arbiter POC things or knowledge of POC. My problem is when the other way around is treated as an antidote to White supremacy. Indeed, it is a taste of what POC experience all the time, but nobody deserves to experience it for even a second. Furthermore, what would be the point of showing me how it feels? I can never fully know, so why can’t they leave me alone instead,? What could i possibly learn from the broken arm fallacy?
I’m not so much worried about my culture sharing things with other ones, but rather that it’s considered inferior in some way to all POC cultures. I know most sjers don’t believe in POC supremacy, but they do tend to believe all White cultures are pathetic and should be looked down on. “Whites are not uniquely evil or bad.” is dismissed not because many know that, but because they believe it is incorrect.
In addition, i need to be unique and close them out from some things that aren’t beneficial or trivial if they wanna close me out from some things that are. By take influence, i meant using incorporating influences from things that inspire me, and now that you mention it, using but not mocking other cultures’ things.
5. I know being White in of itself is bad. My logic is this:
sj: White people deserve [all prejudiced actions] because they benefit from privilege. Benefitting from privilege means supporting racism because of the possibility of violence and other cruelty.
sj: White means benefitting from privilege.
sj: We should keep race, in spite of its history.
sj: White people cannot escape being White.
sj: White privilege is beyond one’s control.
Putting them all together, i get my stance on Whiteness. I need outside validation because only being enough to oneself is egotism or at least leads to it.
Again, if i caused confusion, acted cruel, or stated factual errors, lemme know. Thanks again for reading.
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Happy New Year to all of you, your families and friends. I wish you peace and justice.
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Happy New Year everyone. The New Year starts on a sad note RIP Natalie Cole.
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Happy New Year, all! On the note of tragic deaths, R.I.P. Lemmy.
@Solitaire, are you still around? Where are you?
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@ Uriel
I wasn’t online yesterday. Just catching up now. I’ll reply soon.
Best wishes in the new year to you and everyone else!
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huh? @ : o O ) >
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@ Uriel
1. “people usually act like tools as a) reflexive gut reaction that while changeable, isn’t exactly”
It is very possible to learn to control that reflexive gut reaction. That’s part of what “leaning into the discomfort” means. Criticism causes discomfort, and most people want to react immediately to defend themselves and/or their group. “Leaning into the discomfort” means that when you are discussing social justice issues and you are part of the majority group, you resist that reflexive gut reaction. You let yourself feel uncomfortable. You sit with the discomfort and you feel it and you think about it.
Or it can also mean that if you have that reflexive gut reaction and later after you think everything over, you realize that’s exactly what happened, then you go tell the person you were having the conversation with. You say, “Hey, I was thinking about what you said the other day, and you were right about x, y, and z, and I was being overly defensive.” That can be an uncomfortable thing to admit to someone else.
“Leaning into the discomfort” means you accept the fact that discussions about race or other social justice matters are going to be difficult and uncomfortable, especially those discussions in which you are part of the majority. You accept that there will be discomfort. You control the reflexive gut reaction.
“and b) because they are never forgiven for anything in sj circles.”
Again, I don’t believe this to be true. I don’t know how to convince you of that fact. If you believe it is true, and you feel you can’t take part in social justice circles without being expressly forgiven and absolved, then it may simply be something you can’t and shouldn’t actively participate in.
“Those only calling for accountability, strike me as the kind of people that hold grudges and would rather doom me than see me as human with any flaws at all.”
Once again, I disagree. Accountability helps you to grow as an ally. It helps you to pinpoint areas where you still hold biased thoughts or are still seeing things through a majority view. The people who call for accountability want you to grow and change. If you don’t grow and change, yes, then they probably will wash their hands of you. However, they aren’t hoping for that result.
“I know intent and effort don’t fix everything, but they’re all i can control. It is just heartless to only care about the effect.”
What you do has an effect on the people around you. No one expects you to fix everything and change the world. They do expect you to learn and pay attention to the effect you have on others.
“I have NO empathy for those who hate me for things not ultimately my fault”
And that appears to be a big part of the problem.
“Kat Blaque (among others) did say allies will make mistakes, but she never said anyone anywhere will forgive them. I understand individual hatred, but not exclusion for mistakes.”
She said: “My approach is always first and foremost accepting that these people WILL make mistakes because of their ignorance. I ultimately think that’s something we should all keep in mind. People make mistakes and I think some space should be made for that.” This statement implies forgiveness for those mistakes.
2. “Please don’t use buzzwords or repeat words with relatively plain definitions (pushback, discomfort) unless you’re signalling a different meaning than what is normally used in which case please explain because as of this moment i am profoundly unaware of what you’re referring to with the pushback argument and “lean into discomfort”. My sources of info for words and phrases are Wiktionary and Urban Dictionary, and when none of them describe certain sj stuff, i’m at a blank.”
I have no way of knowing what words and terms you are or are not familiar with unless you tell me. I gave you a long explanation of “lean into the discomfort” the first time I mentioned it, and you never told me you didn’t understand it until now. You seemed to be miffed about already knowing “intersectionality” even though I said look it up if you *aren’t already familiar* with it.
The way in which I’m using “pushback” is similar to the official definition of “resistance or opposition in response to a policy or regulation especially by those affected.” The difference is, instead of being in response to a policy or regulation, this pushback is in response to the white-centered framework that history and social problems have been presented in for a long time.
3. “Part of why i am frustrated with privileged people being hated is because, i, as an autistic person, don’t hate allistics. I don’t even protagonize the people or ideas that do. Neither does any other autistic i know, and they don’t consider it hurt feelings to be doomed to be evil for things beyond one’s control. We also don’t (usually, we’re not perfect) follow the broken arm fallacy.”
Unfortunately, you can’t control how other people think or how they feel. I can see why it is frustrating, but it isn’t possible to say to someone, “I don’t think this way, therefore you shouldn’t either.” You might be able to persuade someone to change how they think or feel, but that takes much more work than just saying, “I don’t, therefore you shouldn’t.”
This is the reason I asked earlier if you hang out on any autistic/Asperger’s forums. I thought you might have an easier time discussing these types of issues there, with any POC who may frequent those forums. At any rate, it would be an interesting aspect to add to what you’ve already been reading.
The point I was trying to make about asking you how you felt about allistic people is to draw a comparison, because I don’t think your opinion of minority people hating all white people reflects reality. I think most feel pretty much the way you do about allistic people. The difference probably is the amount of emotional and abstract and nuanced language they use, the heated arguments they get into, etc. I guess this is where you’re getting this idea that they believe all white people are doomed forever. But just like what you said about allistic people, when it comes down to what POC really want, most want white people to learn how not to act racist and not to act that way ever again.
For instance, I read the “There Are No ‘Good White People’” by Teej. I agreed with every word he said. And although I can’t know for sure, I get the feeling that if we sat down and talked to him, he would say that he didn’t mean that he hates all white people or that all white people are doomed just because they were born white.
That essay didn’t come from a place of hate. It came from a place of pain. It was written in very abstract, almost poetic language. There was a lot that was implied rather than directly stated.
It mainly referenced the racist mass murder at the Emanuel A.M.E. Church in Charleston, SC, and the terrible fact that the white shooter didn’t just simply walk into the church and immediately open fire, as most of us imagined when the news first broke. No, he asked if he could join their Bible study group that evening. He sat with them and prayed with them. He later was reported as saying they were nice to him. But he killed them anyway.
The point Teej was trying to make—and this was very much implied but not directly stated—is that many white people don’t trust black people, especially strangers, especially young males. If the tables had been turned and it was a young black male stranger who had walked into a white church and asked to join their Bible study group, he probably would have not been received well because white people tend to be suspicious of young black men they don’t know.
Instead, it was a young white male stranger who walked into a black church, and they graciously welcomed him. That is what Teej means by the grace that black people extend to white people every day. And the reason he kept saying “there are no good white people” is to stress that black people continue to trust white people even when it is to their detriment, even when black people have more than enough reason to assume all white people are out to do them harm until proven otherwise.
It is poetic, abstract language, using exaggeration to get across a point. It doesn’t mean that he truly believes all white people everywhere are evil and doomed.
4. “Indeed, it is a taste of what POC experience all the time, but nobody deserves to experience it for even a second. Furthermore, what would be the point of showing me how it feels? I can never fully know, so why can’t they leave me alone instead,? What could i possibly learn from the broken arm fallacy?”
All I can tell you is this is a common technique used by allistic people with each other, to help us empathize and sympathize with each other. We can and do learn a lot from it. There are even a number of workshop exercises designed to put majority people into simulated situations like those experienced by minority people so they can experience a taste of what it is like. For many people this is eye-opening, even transformative. Quite possibly it isn’t an effective technique for autistic people.
“In addition, i need to be unique and close them out from some things that aren’t beneficial or trivial if they wanna close me out from some things that are. By take influence, i meant using incorporating influences from things that inspire me, and now that you mention it, using but not mocking other cultures’ things.”
I’m still not really following you here. I could use some concrete examples. You mentioned painting before. Is that an area in which you would like to incorporate influences from other cultures?
5. “Benefitting from privilege means supporting racism because of the possibility of violence and other cruelty.”
Again, I disagree. People benefit from white privilege whether or not they support racism. They can become aware of the ways in which they benefit and do whatever they can to level the playing field. People with white privilege can speak up when they see other people being marginalized and ignored because they aren’t white. People with white privilege can support social justice and minority issues. Having white privilege does not in and of itself mean you support racism—it all depends on you and how you approach, conceptualize, and use your unearned privilege.
“I need outside validation because only being enough to oneself is egotism or at least leads to it.”
Then I’m at a loss for what to tell you. It isn’t fair to POC to keep asking them to validate you as a white person. I’ve been trying to give you validation that you can be enough even though you’re white, but it doesn’t seem to be the type of validation you need.
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abagond, will you do a post on the passing of Dr. Frances Cress Welsing?
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@ Sondis
I will be doing a Dr. Frances Cress Welsing post.
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@Solitaire
1. “You let yourself feel uncomfortable. You sit with the discomfort and you feel it and you think about it.”
Whenever i feel discomfortable i try to step out and analyze why, then rectify the foolishness if it was wrong or confront the source when i can if it’s right. Actively seeking out being discomfortable is what i thought you meant, as that sort of thing will just lead me in a nihilistic spiral.
One goal i have is to slate and discover the ultimate answer of human morality.
“and b) because they are never forgiven for anything in sj circles.”
“Again, I don’t believe this to be true. I don’t know how to convince you of that fact.”
I’ll take your word. I’ll report specific examples when i happen across them hereon. I know i’m not entitled to forgiveness by the individual people i wronged, just to be left alone and maybe have other people, after punishment and repentance.
“Once again, I disagree.”
The operative word in that sentence was “only”, as in most of the anti-forgiveness crowd i’ve seen is pro-accountability. I gotta held responsible for my actions (even albeit at a fixable extent), tho.
“And that appears to be a big part of the problem.”
I don’t mean anyone deserves oppression or certain things like prions or to be doomed to a certain state forever. I can hate somebody but not wish utter cruelty upon them and understand they have entitlements like socialization and health.
“This statement implies forgiveness for those mistakes.”
I would’ve never caught that had you not told me, but i’ll discuss indirect language and venting, along with my language issues below.
2. Admittedly, this request was a mistake and i apologize for demanding it. I will just ask term-by-term if i don’t know what a term is. I also wasn’t as offended as you think i was by much, i know i can come off that way in writing, but i assure you it’s just terseness rather than anger or anything beyond confusion.
3. “But just like what you said about allistic people, when it comes down to what POC really want, most want white people to learn how not to act racist and not to act that way ever again”.
I believe you. Again, i’ll report examples when i see them.
“For instance, I read the “There Are No ‘Good White People’” by Teej. I agreed with every word he said. And although I can’t know for sure, I get the feeling that if we sat down and talked to him, he would say that he didn’t mean that he hates all white people or that all white people are doomed just because they were born white.”
I literally just learned that fact due to social miscommunication, yet people keep leading me to vents, poetry, abstractions, and other indirect speech as a guide. If it’s not ment for me to learn but rather for them to vent, why do i need to see it? Should i tell anyone i can’t completely get subtext like that?
This brings me to another tangent: other sj privileged people who think i deserve to be looked down on by them regardless of my efforts. Why do other privileged people get to act impatient and judgemental? They don’t feel the pain, so why can’t they be decent (until i genuinely be a tool, that is). No, i don’t think you’re among them.
4. “I’m still not really following you here. I could use some concrete examples. You mentioned painting before. Is that an area in which you would like to incorporate influences from other cultures?”
You did read my comments in the cultural appropriation post on the blog, right? I wasn’t in the best of behaviors then, but i stand by (at least 80% of) my points there. It’ll help you understand my take on the issue.
I was trying to say i want cultures to mix and take influences from each other, provided even without giving back more than the standard social justice work if it isn’t mockery (“I’m a pocahottie!”), status grabbing (“I’m a REAL shaman.”), or refusal to acknowledge sources/ privilege. If i can’t take influence from them even without my 3 circumstances, then neither should they unless they absolutely have to. It’s unfair for me to be demonized by having no positive unique ethnic identity (a main argument against cultural exchange is “we lose our distinction”, another is the broken arm fallacy, and another is you need permission- like anyone who gives me permission is ever accepted). Cultural consent also makes no sense, am i supposed to take a poll out of everyone, and even if 90% is fine, the other 10% is still enough for sj at large to hate me for wanting my culture to not be in stasis, which is a huge reason why white people attempt to go thru other cultures besides the obvious self-expression entitlement.
5. “Having white privilege does not in and of itself mean you support racism—it all depends on you and how you approach, conceptualize, and use your unearned privilege.”
I don’t agree with the ideology, either. It’s just something i keep coming across.
“I’m at a loss for what to tell you. It isn’t fair to POC to keep asking them to validate you as a white person. I’ve been trying to give you validation that you can be enough even though you’re white, but it doesn’t seem to be the type of validation you need.”
I meant if i’m only respected (as in seen as a human) by myself and few others, when there are far more good people i’ve met who don’t like me, then i’m bad and tolerated only by the strongest of the good. Why can’t it be a flaw to antagonize or demonize me for things out of my control?
This last one sounded fishy, and i apologize for it. My goal was to rephrase my thought process that abagond once quoted.
Thanks for reading, and have great day. Apologies if i acted rudeish.
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@ Uriel
1. “Whenever i feel discomfortable i try to step out and analyze why, then rectify the foolishness if it was wrong or confront the source when i can if it’s right.”
That’s a good strategy. Sometimes, though, it isn’t exactly foolishness but just the discomfort of stretching your mind and emotions to take in a viewpoint that is alien to your own experiences as a white person.
“Actively seeking out being discomfortable is what i thought you meant, as that sort of thing will just lead me in a nihilistic spiral.”
No, you don’t have to seek it out, and I definitely think you should avoid things that you know will lead to a nihilistic spiral.
“One goal i have is to slate and discover the ultimate answer of human morality.”
That’s a huge goal.
“I’ll report specific examples when i happen across them hereon. I know i’m not entitled to forgiveness by the individual people i wronged, just to be left alone and maybe have other people, after punishment and repentance.”
Ok. I think you already know this, but I want to clarify that when I say that I disagree, I don’t mean it hasn’t ever happened to you. I just disagree that it is true of all people involved in social justice, all POC, etc.
I will try my best to parse out any specific examples you happen on. May I also suggest that you keep an eye out for examples to the contrary, because I think it’s possible you’re not actively looking for instances where there has been forgiveness, etc.
“I don’t mean anyone deserves oppression or certain things like prions or to be doomed to a certain state forever. I can hate somebody but not wish utter cruelty upon them and understand they have entitlements like socialization and health.”
I understand that, and I’m sorry for being brusque. What I meant was more in reference to not having empathy for them, not understanding where they are coming from. To some degree it sounds like you want forgiveness yet are unwilling to forgive. (Feel free to correct me if I’m misunderstanding you on this.)
2. “Admittedly, this request was a mistake and i apologize for demanding it. I will just ask term-by-term if i don’t know what a term is. I also wasn’t as offended as you think i was by much, i know i can come off that way in writing, but i assure you it’s just terseness rather than anger or anything beyond confusion.”
It’s ok. I think I may have come across as more frustrated in my last post than I actually felt, and I apologize for that as well. My tone wasn’t the best.
3. “I literally just learned that fact due to social miscommunication, yet people keep leading me to vents, poetry, abstractions, and other indirect speech as a guide. If it’s not ment for me to learn but rather for them to vent, why do i need to see it? Should i tell anyone i can’t completely get subtext like that?”
Yeah, I honestly think you should tell them. And you may have to tell people more than once for it to fully get through to them what type of subtext you don’t get. You may run into some people who don’t understand or who are jerks about it, but overall I think most people will appreciate the knowledge so they can direct you to better types of sources.
It sucks to always be telling people, but otherwise allistics are going to assume you are allistic, too. They/we really shouldn’t, and maybe someday we will get there as a society. Right now, though, I think it might help a great deal if you explain this to people.
“This brings me to another tangent: other sj privileged people who think i deserve to be looked down on by them regardless of my efforts. Why do other privileged people get to act impatient and judgemental? They don’t feel the pain, so why can’t they be decent (until i genuinely be a tool, that is). No, i don’t think you’re among them.”
I know we’ve been talking about privilege and how you have it as a white person. But with the question above, I think this is where your own minority/underrepresented/marginalized status comes into play. I think those other sj privileged people are allistics who are either assuming you are too, or who have no clue how to act appropriately with someone who is autistic.
I’m going to be really honest here: I read back in some of the threads from this summer, and I fully understand why so many people thought you were a troll. The questions you were asking and the way in which you were phrasing them sounded very much like the types of things asked and said by white racist trolls. It helped me immensely to know that you were in fact autistic and were asking these things in all sincerity. I could see where people were answering you the way they would respond to a typical white racist and how those answers were not at all helpful to you as someone who was actually autistic.
So this is an area where intersectionality comes into play. You have white privilege, but you also have something that makes you very different from many other white people.
4. “You did read my comments in the cultural appropriation post on the blog, right? I wasn’t in the best of behaviors then, but i stand by (at least 80% of) my points there. It’ll help you understand my take on the issue.”
I’ve read them more than once 😦
“I was trying to say i want cultures to mix and take influences from each other, provided even without giving back more than the standard social justice work if it isn’t mockery (“I’m a pocahottie!”), status grabbing (“I’m a REAL shaman.”), or refusal to acknowledge sources/ privilege.”
This is something that many sj/POC people would agree with. As long as it’s done carefully and respectfully, cultural mixing can be creative and enjoyable. The problem is, not everyone agrees.
I apologize ahead of time if this is mistaken, but one of the things I have heard is common for autistic people is a desire to have set rules to follow, immutable guidelines. But since not everyone agrees on what exactly equals cultural appropriation, it is impossible to say: “Yes, there is a consensus among all POC that X equals cultural appropriation and Y does not.” I get the feeling that may be one of the stumbling blocks you’re having here.
5. “I don’t agree with the ideology, either. It’s just something i keep coming across.”
Ok, that makes sense. Again, there aren’t any immutable rules. You may just have to decide when you come across that ideology to file it away as “I disagree, but I’m not going to argue with them about it.”
“I meant if i’m only respected (as in seen as a human) by myself and few others, when there are far more good people i’ve met who don’t like me, then i’m bad and tolerated only by the strongest of the good. Why can’t it be a flaw to antagonize or demonize me for things out of my control?”
It *is* a flaw. Again, this may be where you’re running into misunderstanding or even prejudice on the part of allistics.
“Thanks for reading, and have great day. Apologies if i acted rudeish.”
You’re fine. Hope your day is going great, too!
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@ Abagond: Do you plan to do a post on the Oregon militia. In my opinion they are domestic terrorist.
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@ Uriel
“when there are far more good people i’ve met who don’t like me, then i’m bad and tolerated only by the strongest of the good.”
Another way to conceptualize this is:
“When there are far more good people I’ve met who don’t like me, then I’m being misunderstood by most good people who are allistic and tolerated only by those who have a better awareness of what it is like to be autistic.”
I’m not 100% sure this is what’s happening in all cases. But if people you deem good don’t like you, it doesn’t necessarily follow that you are bad. I can see how you drew that conclusion. It is a logical progression of thought, but it may be faulty in that it ignores other possible factors.
If people you deem as good don’t like you, perhaps you were mistaken in deeming them as good.
If people you deem as good don’t like you, maybe they don’t realize they’re basing that dislike on their (probably unconscious) bias towards allistics.
If people you deem as good don’t like you, perhaps they’re reacting to the miscommunication that often arises between allistics and autistics — the misreading of cues, the use of abstract and inferential language, etc.
There are a number of potential reasons for this dislike besides your being a bad person, so therefore it doesn’t necessarily follow that you are a bad person.
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@ Mary Burrell
Yes, I will be doing a post on Oregon.
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@ Mary
My post on the Oregon stand-off:
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@ Uriel
Have you read The Company novels by Kage Baker? It’s science fiction involving time travel and immortality, and about halfway through the series, pirates become a major theme.
Some of her non-Company short fiction is about historical pirates.
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@Solitaire
Not really, i’m not very interested in reading non-comic fiction for longer than a dime novel.
I might check the short stories out one day. You a fan of theirs?
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@ Uriel
Very much so, but unfortunately she died of cancer a couple years ago. Her sister has been finishing some of the uncompleted manuscripts, but eventually there will be no more new material to look forward to 😦
Do you have any favorite authors? (whether fiction or non-fiction)
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Song suggestion: J’me tire, by Maitre Gims. He’s a French Congolese rapper/singer who’s topped the Euro charts quite a few times now.
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F_rEHfLgdcY)
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I am from Montana, white, and have many Native friends. I find your choice of articles and quotes racist. Instead of trying to change events that happened over 100 years ago, maybe a better course of action would be to educate and enlighten your readers, instead of trying to drag them into a race baiting war.
It makes me sick, that you are exploiting your ancestors to benefit yourself financially, and to paint yourself as a victim. This does not help Natives with their current economic situation, nor does it do anything to establish a plan moving forward. I believe we should study our past, remember it, and use it as an educational tool of what not to do. You also fail to mention, that in Montana, anyone with at least 1/4 Native bloodline, would have the opportunity to receive a free college education at any school they can academically get into, opportunities to purchase homes and or land with out a high interest bearing loans, lifetime free health insurance, and many other programs that are only available to Natives. I think this is a great thing for Montana Native people, however the percentage who take advantage of these programs remains too low. Instead of trying to play the race card every chance you have, take that time to talk with your community, encourage them to get higher education, and start teaching tolerance and compassion, instead of hate and contempt. Just my opinion, but someone had to say it.
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@ stan
Get your facts straight:
“Native American students who attend any state school in Montana will qualify for a fee waiver if they are Montana residents, at least 1/4 Indian blood quantum, and have financial need. The fee waiver includes tuition and a $30 administrative fee, but not approximately $235 in other fees.”
That’s not free. Beyond the $235 fees, it also doesn’t cover the cost of dormitory housing and food plan, books, computers, lab materials, etc. That’s not a free ride.
When are you white folks in Montana going to give back the Black Hills? It’s been over 35 years since the Supreme Court ruled that the land was stolen, not ceded.
What are you white folks in Montana doing about the epidemic proportions of rape and murder of Native women by white men?
What are you white folks in Montana doing to support Native sovereignty?
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Wow
“PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — Blunt-spoken Republican Gov. Paul LePage said out-of-state drug dealers are impregnating “young white” girls, and his remarks were quickly denounced by critics on Thursday as racial fearmongering.
LePage, talking about Maine’s heroin epidemic, described out-of-state drug dealers as “guys with the name D-Money, Smoothie, Shifty” and said “half the time they impregnate a young white girl before they leave.”
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b1ca1b7b359f4434b7644ff92b96e4d8/maine-governor-drug-dealers-impregnate-young-white-girls
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Hopefully one of the white girls ‘Shifty’ impregnates is his daughter. This is a joke article, right?
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^LOL!! “Shifty” lol!
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@Solitaire
I don’t have any particular favorite authors or books. I’m sorry to hear about Kage Baker and i hope she rests well.
—
Also, i know there are many, many jerkfaces that would tell me to shrug off my Asperger’s and Depression or simply just don’t understand it; however, i’m afraid of overstating the effect they have on me (as even i don’t know the full extent), and becoming a putz who uses them as a “get out of toolness free” card.
Moreover, i am trying to find an autism-oriented or autism-aware sj group that isn’t negelectful of non-ability issues and isn’t condescending/ hostile. I joined WrongPlanet, but i have doubts because AutismSpeaks has contributed money whilst there isn’t a forum either for POC or racial justice.
Do you or anyone else know of any places that would be fitting? I’m sick of being told “educate yourself” when almost all the education is indirect speech, venting, monetized, hostile, unresponding (i can’t ask questions to a book, zine, or article), inaccurate, or tucked away- even if it’s by normal privileged people (the penultimate one i understand coming from normal privileged people, i’m using normal to normalize allyship).
Don’t worry, tho, i’m not as distressed as i seem but this issue does frequently hamper things.
Also, yes i’m willing to forgive people who repent and apologize that didn’t deliberately do permanent things to me.
I do have rules to follow morally, and while they aren’t perfect, i do think they can be perfect in my lifetime even if i’m not perfect about them myself. Heck, i think there should be a slate of laws everyone follow not to be bigots or tools but i’m largely confused and frustrated at some points (the ones i’ve mentioned).
On cultural appropriation and “what good culture do i have” issues, the problem with most cultural discussions is that far to many people believe in collective responsibility as if superorganisms exist.
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wow chi-raq is half in scannable meter
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@Solitaire
I’m mad today, not at you or anyone really (except hypothetical sludgenozzles), only ideas. I need to vent to further articulate some issues. Excuse the whiny tone.
To others, please don’t respond if you’re gonna mock me. Please and thanks in advance.
—
The next person who writes in my search for acceptance by almost all NOT EVIL people as fee-fees, or sees my search for enough NON-EVIL associations as fee-fees should get wronged (no, not in a permanent way). These problems at worst take five seconds to solve, how can they take more? Without acceptance from enough good people and enough good associations, i, myself, am an evil and therefore lesser. I’m tired of finding answers myself, i have tried for 11 years (albeit imperfectly for an incredible lot of it) to find an ethnicity that wasn’t colonial or evil and i got nowhere. I have no story to tell and i deserve to be obscured or reviled by good people and the future beings of the earth.
There is zero harm in giving me an equally good identity or not dooming me to vilehood unless i give up myself. Yet it’s still done and if it’s not discouraged or ignored, why do so many support it when it happens and slash those who disdain it? There’s no burden not have a tool to use, as i’m pretty sure even the best white people are seen as pure tools.
That’s why no matter how much work one does, you’ll still be a pathetic oppressor who deserves the utleast decency and if that’s not true, i’m at least to decide between autonomy and acceptance. White people aren’t necessary for POC, it’s the other way around. [Unventing: I truthfully think white people aren’t necessary but not necessarily a bad addition.] Anger is always toted before the compassion that justified it, replaced with selfish pride instead. Y’ever read Everyday Feminism, any masterposts, Tumblr, or any sj list with these issues?
There’s not a competent place where i can go afik/atm (as i said in my last post) to find answers, help, or even resources to find the other two, because in part the world was built for allistics, but in more parts of the pettiness of other normal white people and a faulty sense of collective punishment coming from the millstone known as collectivism. We’re social beings, yes, but not swarms. I have to come here, because you seem to be the only person i didn’t know beforehand in sj who didn’t agree with dooming me and didn’t get fed up with me easily, and therefore a huge help (no creepy, and not that i don’t like you as a person or that i’ll prod information from you like you live to do that). I understand POC getting fed up, but not other white people unless i did something universally or personally wrong.
“Just make friends and community in sj.” said the jerk with both already, who’d be accepted like hotcakes with good people, and is only hated by incidental fiends and the scum of the earth. I hate when people say this.
Judging ONLY the effect of any misdeed with no intent or effort mitigation shows a sign of selfishness not simply valor. Not forgiving is just the same but with timelength added as a factor, altho i will agree the anti-forgiveness crowd is a vocal minority.
tldr; Next person who tells me to just be happy with the fact of being looked down on by most good people should have a bad time or a worse time if their time is already bad. I need no compassion atm for those lacking it for me atm. Not that i want them to suffer oppression or maimery or abuse.
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@ Uriel
I just saw your last two posts. I’m really tired right now and heading for bed. I’ll try tomorrow to answer in length and with some considered thoughts.
I do want to ask you something, and I hope you won’t be offended by it, because I say it out of concern and mean it well. But if it does offend you, please of course do tell me so, as I’m still learning what is and isn’t ok to say.
This is the question: Do you think maybe these feelings — or at least some of them — might be part of a depressive spiral?
I have wondered this for awhile but have not known exactly how to ask. I don’t mean to devalue your concerns, either. You ask a lot of good questions about social justice and so forth. But when you state that other people see you as bad, evil, not a human, etc., that makes me think about depression.
I know that you are basing this on experiences you’ve had with other people. I get that some people have said or done things to make you feel that they didn’t like you. But I wonder if you might not have a feedback loop or spiral centering on that issue, because you really seem to be beating up on yourself.
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@ Uriel
One other quick thought — it’s not true that most other people are easily accepted or make friends easily or aren’t hated. My own brother hates me so much he hasn’t spoken to me for ~20 years. There is no single person alive who is universally like by everyone they meet, who hasn’t made enemies even inadvertently. We all have faults, we all make mistakes. Sometimes neither party is in the wrong; they just have personalities that clash and find it difficult to stand each other.
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I have been told i am in a depressive spiral with these two things, but it’s always shrugged off as fee-fees to people i’ve met. Including other white people. I wouldn’t be surprized if this the work of my depression, but what am i supposed to tell people? I have white guilt? Have you read Hari Kondabolu’s rant on it, which sums up what nearly everyone in sj thinks (“Shut up! It could be worse!”), ignoring the fact it can be solved in a matter of seconds as opposed to a century.
Most therapists aren’t in tune with sj, so it’s pretty tricky to find one that is. Moreover, it’s less my personal experiences of interaction, more my personal experience of viewing. I’m not very social or active in sj communities, let alone any that are hostile in the way i have described. What am i supposed tell people about my misunderstanding, besides “say what you mean”?
I know i can be hated by other good people and still be good myself. Problem is, i think most good people at least respect each other if they don’t get along. Misunderstandings and pure personality clashes can’t be that common, can they?
I’m also really sad to hear your brother hates you. I hope it works out at some point.
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@Solitaire
One problem i have is this: If my heritage primarily contains truly awful genociders and savages like the Western Europeans, what do i do for pride in anything i actually have that others don’t? Moreover, why can’t i be absolved of patheticness- i did nothing but be born. Why is it fee-fees to want an UP TO PAR community and sense of identity and pride, akin to the ones POC have? This thought comes from reading posts on this blog (among other WordPress sj places) and responses to them.
I understand ethnicities cross racial boundries (compare the light-skinned Seth Rogen to the dark-skinned Ilana Glazer [Ashkenazi Jewish] or Billy Zane with Jason Mantzoukas [Greek] or Steve Buscemi with Anthony Fantano [Sicilian]).
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*I understand ethnicities cross racial boundries… so i can understand some POC being a part of whatever community i have, just not all.
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@ Uriel
“I don’t have any particular favorite authors or books.”
That’s okay. You don’t have to.
“Also, i know there are many, many jerkfaces that would tell me to shrug off my Asperger’s and Depression or simply just don’t understand it; however, i’m afraid of overstating the effect they have on me (as even i don’t know the full extent), and becoming a putz who uses them as a “get out of toolness free” card.”
Overall, it’s a good thing not to overstate the effect, especially in matters concerning social justice. Some white people who are minorities/underrepresented/marginalized in other aspects (like LGBTQ, for example) will use their minority status as an excuse not to confront their own biases. They will say, “I already understand all about oppression because I’m a lesbian (or whatever)” when in actuality they don’t comprehend the different ways oppression is experienced by various groups. It’s good that you are avoiding using your own minority status in this way.
But at the same time, it isn’t a good thing to completely dismiss the possibility that some people who are being jerks to you are doing so because they don’t understand what it’s like to have Asperger’s and/or depression. I think it’s important for you to keep that in mind because of your tendency to think those people don’t like you because you’re bad. That is a self-defeating mindset and one that isn’t necessarily true.
I used a lot of examples in that earlier comment suggesting that those people might not like you for reasons having to do with miscommunication or bias against autistics, but the truth is there are many other possible reasons as well. Sometimes you may just have the misfortune of meeting someone when they’re having a bad day and hate the world. Sometimes you may even be mistaken that they hate you. Even allistics do that; we don’t always read each other correctly. I can think of a number of times when I thought someone disliked me and it turned out not to be true. I also have had the experience of not liking a person much when I first met them, but later on as I got to know them better, we became really good friends.
“Moreover, i am trying to find an autism-oriented or autism-aware sj group that isn’t negelectful of non-ability issues and isn’t condescending/ hostile. I joined WrongPlanet, but i have doubts because AutismSpeaks has contributed money whilst there isn’t a forum either for POC or racial justice.”
You may have to explain to me the part about AutismSpeaks, because I don’t know what that refers to or why it would make you doubtful.
You’re right that WrongPlanet doesn’t have a forum for POC or racial justice. One way you could approach it is this: Start contributing to some of the general discussion threads on WrongPlanet to let people get to know you. I know you are wanting very much to leap right in and talk about racial justice, but at first I would suggest contributing to lighter topics. After you feel more comfortable there, post something in the general section asking if there are any POC people with autism on the board and if they would like to discuss the intersection of autism and race. Again, don’t start off with all your questions at first. Try to make that post a safe space for any POC who respond to talk about their experiences. Do a lot of listening and ask questions that show you’re interested in their experiences and issues. Ask if anyone else thinks it would be good to have a specific forum for race and ethnicity, the way there is one for women and another for LGBTQ. Even if you can’t get the moderators to set up a specific forum, there are still other places on Wrong Planet for general discussion where you could post about racial justice and see if you can get a conversation going.
“Do you or anyone else know of any places that would be fitting?”
I wish I did. Unfortunately, I know very little about autism and what places are on the internet. From what I have seen, there isn’t a place that specifically talks about autism and race. Maybe you can find some people on Wrong Planet who would be interested in creating such a place.
You might also check out the community on Reddit (www.reddit.com/r/aspergers; http://www.reddit.com/r/autism). I don’t know much about these two forums, only that they exist and that people with autism post there. Would be worth a look, at least.
“I’m sick of being told “educate yourself” when almost all the education is indirect speech, venting, monetized, hostile, unresponding (i can’t ask questions to a book, zine, or article), inaccurate, or tucked away”
I’m starting to better understand how this is an issue for you. The “educate yourself” mantra has become big in part because of trolls who just want to mess with POC or other minorities. Those trolls aren’t really interested in learning, so people who engage with them often end up feeling like they wasted a lot of time trying to educate someone who just wanted to troll. They don’t realize the difficulties you have with things like indirect speech.
About unresponsive books, though—while you’re reading a book, if you come across something you want to ask about, couldn’t you just come here and ask the question? Or is it not the same as being able to ask the author directly? I’m not quite sure I understand the problem fully and am looking to get a better idea of what you mean.
“Also, yes i’m willing to forgive people who repent and apologize that didn’t deliberately do permanent things to me.”
That’s good. But am I understanding correctly that a lot of people you’re venting about here, you are only reading what they’ve written online and aren’t actually engaged in a conversation with them? So there’s no possibility of repentance and apologizing? If that is in fact the case, I guess what I meant was more that you seem to have some trouble just saying, “Well, I don’t agree with that person” and letting it go. Or saying, “Well, I don’t agree with them, but I can understand why they feel that way, based on what I know of their experiences as a POC that they have shared on their website.” Instead, you seem to be saying, “This person hates me because I’m white which isn’t fair and I can’t handle that.” If I am mistaken about that, please tell me because it’s very possible that I’m not quite understanding what you’re trying to say.
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@ Uriel
“The next person who writes in my search for acceptance by almost all NOT EVIL people as fee-fees, or sees my search for enough NON-EVIL associations as fee-fees should get wronged (no, not in a permanent way). These problems at worst take five seconds to solve, how can they take more?”
I’m not following you here. What problems only take five seconds to solve?
“Without acceptance from enough good people and enough good associations, i, myself, am an evil and therefore lesser.”
I say again, your “If X, then Y” doesn’t necessarily prove true.
“i have tried for 11 years (albeit imperfectly for an incredible lot of it) to find an ethnicity that wasn’t colonial or evil and i got nowhere. I have no story to tell and i deserve to be obscured or reviled by good people and the future beings of the earth.”
Does an ethnicity have to possess a perfect history or background or otherwise it is evil? What do you find specifically wrong about your own ethnicities?
“There is zero harm in giving me an equally good identity or not dooming me to vilehood unless i give up myself. Yet it’s still done and if it’s not discouraged or ignored, why do so many support it when it happens and slash those who disdain it? There’s no burden not have a tool to use, as i’m pretty sure even the best white people are seen as pure tools.
“That’s why no matter how much work one does, you’ll still be a pathetic oppressor who deserves the utleast decency and if that’s not true, i’m at least to decide between autonomy and acceptance. White people aren’t necessary for POC, it’s the other way around. [Unventing: I truthfully think white people aren’t necessary but not necessarily a bad addition.] Anger is always toted before the compassion that justified it, replaced with selfish pride instead. Y’ever read Everyday Feminism, any masterposts, Tumblr, or any sj list with these issues?”
If it’s okay with you, Uriel, I’m just going to treat the above as a vent. I feel like we’ve already talked over these issues a great deal, and right now I have nothing new to add.
“I have to come here, because you seem to be the only person i didn’t know beforehand in sj who didn’t agree with dooming me and didn’t get fed up with me easily, and therefore a huge help (no creepy, and not that i don’t like you as a person or that i’ll prod information from you like you live to do that). I understand POC getting fed up, but not other white people unless i did something universally or personally wrong.”
I’m going to be very honest. If I hadn’t known from the beginning that you were autistic, I would have assumed you were allistic, and I would have been really hard on you because as I said upthread, the types of things you were saying sounded very much like the things said by racist trolls.
You may need to work on how you present these issues to avoid sounding like a troll and/or say upfront to people that you are autisitc and therefore communicate differently than allistics.
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@ Uriel
“I have been told i am in a depressive spiral with these two things, but it’s always shrugged off as fee-fees to people i’ve met. Including other white people. I wouldn’t be surprized if this the work of my depression, but what am i supposed to tell people? I have white guilt?”
In my opinion, the thing to do is worry less about what to tell people and more about how to stop the spiral. I know that stopping the spiral is a difficult thing to do. I’m not trying to say it is easy or that you can stop it all at once. I just believe it is far more important to address the spiral than what any fool around you may think about the spiral. It is in your own best interests to identify the spiral and take steps to eliminate it.
“Most therapists aren’t in tune with sj, so it’s pretty tricky to find one that is.”
That’s true, but you may be able to find one. It might be even more important to find a therapist who has experience working with autistic people, because of the different ways your mind processes stuff. Some types of therapy will be more useful to you than others due to that.
“Moreover, it’s less my personal experiences of interaction, more my personal experience of viewing. I’m not very social or active in sj communities, let alone any that are hostile in the way i have described.”
Yeah, this is part of why it seems like a depressive spiral to me. You’ve been reading things online about social justice that have gotten you upset and blaming yourself and feeling no good. Then you keep reading more of this same type of writing. It’s like your depression is feeding on it.
I don’t know if your depression works this way, but with some people, they feel bad and depressed and down for no apparent reason (although there most likely is a neurochemical reason), so their mind has to find something to go along with those feelings. So they think about things that make them unhappy, and that makes the depression worse, and it just sets up a nasty feedback loop that can be very hard to break.
“What am i supposed tell people about my misunderstanding, besides “say what you mean”? “
Maybe something like: “I have Asperger’s, which means I understand things best if they are stated clearly, directly, and plainly. I prefer blunt speech to indirect or allusive speech. I may misunderstand speech that relies on the reader or listener to catch implied meanings.” Is that fairly accurate?
“I know i can be hated by other good people and still be good myself. Problem is, i think most good people at least respect each other if they don’t get along. Misunderstandings and pure personality clashes can’t be that common, can they?”
Yes, I think they are way too common, to be honest. Historically there have been a lot of “good” people who couldn’t stand each other or who became enemies over areas where they disagreed. W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington both worked at the same time for the betterment of African Americans, but they took two very different approaches, and they each felt the other was dead wrong. The women’s suffrage movement fractured right after the Civil War because of arguments about whether women should be included in the 14th and 15th amendments. People in the women’s suffrage movement and the abolitionist movement who had worked together for decades and been good colleagues and friends got so angry that they broke into different organizations, stopped speaking to each other, and published nasty diatribes about each other. That generation had to mostly die out before the suffrage movement was able to reunite. If you read in-depth histories of any of the social justice movements, you will find all sorts of personality conflicts, power struggles, cultural miscommunications, etc.
“I’m also really sad to hear your brother hates you. I hope it works out at some point.”
Thank you.
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@ Uriel
“One problem i have is this: If my heritage primarily contains truly awful genociders and savages like the Western Europeans, what do i do for pride in anything i actually have that others don’t?”
Do you remember upthread when I talked about identifying as a Southerner? My heritage has a lot of horrible stuff in it. My own family has a lot of horrible stuff in it. I know for a fact that some of my ancestors owned slaves. I know for a fact that some of my ancestors fought against Native Americans and killed them or forcibly relocated them. I don’t like that my ancestors did those things.
That doesn’t mean, though, that I can’t still enjoy some good things about Southern culture. I can be proud of one of my Southern ancestors who was an abolitionist in the antebellum South, which was a d@mn dangerous place to be one. I can enjoy Southern cooking. I can like the way we use language, how we still hold onto interesting old words and phrases and sayings that have fallen out of mainstream American speech. I can like old-time folk music from the South. I can like fiddle music. I can like singing ballads that have survived almost intact in oral tradition since being brought over from England in the colonial days.
It is possible to take pride in, or be interested in, or enjoy certain aspects of your heritage without being proud of the bad parts. I accept the bad parts. I know we did bad stuff. I know my ancestors in the North did bad stuff, too. I don’t try to say we didn’t. I don’t try to justify it. I try to do better.
“Moreover, why can’t i be absolved of patheticness- i did nothing but be born. Why is it fee-fees to want an UP TO PAR community and sense of identity and pride, akin to the ones POC have? This thought comes from reading posts on this blog (among other WordPress sj places) and responses to them.”
You have to determine that you are going to have that sense of identity and pride instead of depending on whether others think you should have it or not. As far as the community, I think white people are going to have to work to get it up to par. We need to improve and work on ourselves and our communities. Maybe that could be part of your identity, someone who is working to make your own community better—which doesn’t necessarily imply your community is wholly evil, just that it has specific places for improvement.
____________
I want to let you know that I will be travelling this week in areas with limited internet service. I may not be able to continue this conversation at length until a week or more from now. Feel free to go ahead and respond. Just please be aware that I may not be able to reply immediately or may be limited to very short replies until I get home again.
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Haha!!!! I know Abagond doesn’t remember this one, so I’LL put it up!!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy7yQ6YwrXI)
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Where is Mary Burrell?
If anybody can appreciate this surely it will be her! Lol!!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkTxAU6Uek)
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Ok just one more video – this time a modern one.
Just in case you think they don’t make good music anymore!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_dW7yzhM8)
OK that,s it. Sorry Abagond!
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@King: That for the Soul Train video and I love the latter video with V. Bozeman i love the sensual images of black love.
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@King: *Thanks* For the fun Soul Train video
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Haha! Oh there you are Mary! I KNEW you’d like them 🙂
I was just doing some musical web surfing lat night! (obviously)
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And yes, that Timothy Bloom video duet with V. Bozeman is INSANE sexy!!!
I can’t believe I hadn’t run across it before now! Did you know they are a couple?
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@King: No I didn’t know they were a couple but that would explain the great chemistry and how comfortable they were in front of the camera doing something so intimate.
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@King: Not many women can pull that bald look off.
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@ Mary
That’s true, but OMG! Sooo sexy!!! I remember one morning I was driving through downtown LA on my way to work, and I saw this Black woman with really short hair, gray serge business suit, medium-blue blouse, simple black heels. I almost crashed my car. She looked so fine that I circled the block (even though I was late) in hopes of just seeing her again.
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@King: I thing it’s wonderful that you appreciate the beautiful of a dark skinned natural haired women.
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*beauty*^^^^^^
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Dang! King i think it’s wonderful that you appreciate the beauty of dark skinned natural hair women.
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@ Mary
Seriously, to me it’s a wonder if anyone can’t! And I’m not talking about some kind of “fetish” either. I mean, I can also appreciate women with a whole LOT of hair too.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjOIQnCbDU0)
Its just that close-cut look seems really elegant to me.
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Will you do a post about Ben Carson?
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@Solitaire
I read what you posted, and i think i’ll respond after you’re back into a place with internet, if that’s okay. Just lemme know when it’s good to respond, as i wanna get (relatively) quick answers so i remember *why* i post things, if that’s alright? Thanks in advance.
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@ Uriel
Okay, I will do that.
I have been able to make some short posts from my phone occasionally, when I’ve been within reach of a tower, but for our conversation I have needed to be on my computer to do long posts with that much cutting and pasting.
I will let you know when I’m able to resume so you can respond then.
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Folks, I’m sitting here eating a delicious hamburger. Discuss.
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http://atlantablackstar.com/2016/01/14/enslaved-africans-of-george-washington-depicted-as-happy-and-joyful-in-new-childrens-book/
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@ Abagond’s: A post on the water crisis in Flint Michigan is in order this is horrible people’s health are at stake. In Detroit they were shutting off people’s water, these are poor people. In Flint it’s lead poisoning. The access to clean water. This is something that could be controlled. Children and babies are being affected because of these bureaucratic imbeciles.
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@Jabri Jones: I thought academics were supposed to check for inaccuracies. Depicting slaves as happy this makes me sick. That’s just ludicrous it’s like saying Sally Hemmings was happy being the sex object of Thomas Jefferson. It’s so disgusting. This story I read was written by two women of color. Someone named Ramin Ganeshram. The author is mixed Trini/Iranian and the illustrator is a black woman. Shaking my damn head.
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Remembering MLK this week rest in peace and power.
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With yesterday’s landslide election in Taiwan, we probably need a post on Taiwan to help explain to people what that means to everyone.
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Mary Burrell: I think that pretty soon, black history will cease to exist, and will fade from memory entirely.
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@ Mary
Yes to Flint.
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@Jabari Jones: They pulled that stupid book after all the backlash.
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Mary Burrell: Very glad to hear of that.
Abagond: Do you think that what is going on in Flint amounts to genocide?
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@Solitaire, are you back yet? I’m not impatient or anything, just curious when you’ll be around.
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@Abagond
If it’s helpful for your Flint piece… it has some numbers (with references) to go with the headlines.
Click to access KetteringUniversityWaterUpdateParentsandAlumni.pdf
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The crisis in Flint to me seems like a genocide of a community of black people. On my newsfeed I saw the water, it was a horrible gold/brown color. Not fit for human consumption. The sorry governor makes an anemic apology, he needs to be fired. Detroit residents were getting their water shut off because they couldn’t pay. These are poor people. Poor people are punished just because they are poor. This is frightening.
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@Mary Burrell
I wholeheartedly agree. The whole situation is a tragedy that began with greedy opportunists trying to leverage a complex series of events for political and economic gain and the citizenry were only pawns in their game. Had the people been deemed worthy of consideration, things likely would have proceeded MUCH differently and perhaps even been successful to the point of benefiting an entire region. After all, Flint has everything going for it… regional infrastructure, rural lands for expansion, an airport, rail, seriously, the list goes on and on. BUT, in today’s connected society, you simply cannot steamroller over a bunch of poor people and expect to get away with it. Hopefully that’s at least one lesson that can be taken away from this.
Flint is around 60/40 Black/White and the surrounding areas are also poor and predominantly White. Flint is definitely “more Black” than a lot of the state and this governor’s administration does appear to have a pattern of taking over predominantly Black cities. I’m pretty convinced he’s racist as H*ll and feels strongly that Black people are inferior. However, I think the Flint water deal might actually have been less about genocide and more about economically reinvigorating a “Whiter” alternative to Detroit. You see, all of the lilly-White northern suburbs of Detroit could geographically be southern suburbs of Flint and an economically vibrant Flint would stand to benefit WAY more White people than Black people.
Don’t fall victim to those images. That’s just rusty water shown for dramatic effect. If you live in the city, then I can see why you’d be unfamiliar with it. On rural water systems you get used to seeing it whenever pressure drops due to fire hydrants being used or whatever. The process of switching from Detroit’s system to their own surely caused significant fluctuations in pressure that would release rust. That would have been temporary and truly not the worst of their problems. The real poison, the lead, was invisible, likely predictable, likely preventable and likely covered up.
SIDE NOTE: Do some Googling on fracking operations as they relate to the new pipeline. Not trying to start a conspiracy theory here… just seems like there’s too many coincidences to ignore that it was one more influencer in the decisions.
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@Mirkwood: And the System is racist–not classist. The water crisis only made national news when White people started getting sick.
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Another snowmaggedon?
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@ Uriel
I’m back now. Sorry for the delay and thank you for your patience.
I will be happy to read your response to my last long post(s) whenever you have time to write it 🙂
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@Opend Minded Observer: Thanks for giving me some clarity about this crisis.
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Forgot to write:
*I am desparately clinging to the last vestiges of my Jewish culture to not be American. This is more out of personal preference than anything, tho. I also which Jews would be considered more than a religion and Hebew to be spoken by non-Zionists. Yiddish is Middle German, which was forced upon Jews anyway. In addition, i wish that states were abolished and replaced with cities and regions which can have overlapping cities in them. And maybe gradually remove settlers from settler states if possible.
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If anything bothers or confuses you, just explain or ask, btw.
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Snowmaggedon, all you folks that live on the east coast stay warm and be safe.
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Solitaire, are you there? I promise you i’m not trying to be rude with my comments.
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@ Uriel
I’m only seeing your one short addendum post about Jewish heritage, not the longer post.
Is it showing up on your computer? Or maybe it got hung up in moderation?
BTW, I’m not always quick at responding, but it will never be because I find something you say offensive or rude, just because I’m busy or not feeling well or need time to think about how to respond or simply because I’m a horrible procrastinator. If I think any comments are rude, I will tell you so instead of being silent and letting you wonder what happened.
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My comment is indeed in moderation apparently, just wait a bit i guess.
I think it’s because i put my email address in the thing, but i didn’t put my personal info in the email account. I also asked for yours (to do an email convo as to not clog the open thread and the blog in general), but i assume you didn’t put personal info yours either.
Anywho, i understand you’ll be busy, as i can be as well.
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@ Uriel
Abagond has something in the comment policy about asking him directly if a comment hasn’t shown up in over 24 hours. I think because sometimes they just get lost in cyberspace, although I hope that hasn’t happened to yours. But maybe let him know so he can check if it’s caught in moderation or a spam filter or just never appeared.
Abagond, if you’re reading this, please do not give out the e-mail address I’ve been using to post here. I would want to give Uriel a different one because that particular e-mail address is too closely linked to my real-life identity. I also would prefer to give Uriel the alternate e-mail address without posting it online, if there’s a way we can do that. Thanks!
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Cop found guilty of attempted murder:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/james-forcillo-verdict-1.3414974
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@ Uriel
I deleted your comment for having an email address.
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@ Abagond
Why? It’s not a personal email, it’s a decoy where i do private sj emails. None of my personal info is on there.
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Anyway, Solitaire, i’ll rephrase my post by tomorrow.
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@ Uriel
I’m sorry that you have to rewrite everything. 😦
In the meantime, I remembered an interesting essay on privilege and intersectionality that I read a few years ago. I went back and looked at it again, and I think it is written in a straightforward manner. The last section about the multiple facets of privilege is especially interesting to me.
The author is the science fiction writer An Owomoyela.
http://magistrate.dreamwidth.org/9177.html
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Well, here it goes, question/ answer post take two:
1. AutismSpeaks is basically a for-profit group of allistics speaking over autistics. They are pro-cure in ALL cases and usually are anti-vaccination.
2. If i never met somebody yet they still infuriate me by saying something(s) frustrating and wrong, i won’t blame them for it until they actively antagonize anyone. And i even then i WILL forgive if i can.
3. I honestly would rather know what the author means, but usually whatever is meant by the author can be overridden by popular opinion. Look up the actual meaning of Fahrenheit 451 and see why Bradbury had to leave a college visit. Anyway, the actual meaning of that novel is silly (“TV BAD, BOOKS GOOD”), but my point is that whatever’s meant doesn’t matter.
Moreover, two other reasons i hate the “educate yourself” slogan is because a) the sayer wants me to basically find what they already know when they can easily just tell me, or b) they want me to find what they already know, however they can’t tell me, but they don’t know why they believe in the idea they way they do- implying they probably are blindly following rather than using any reasoning or experience.
4. I recently got an sj-attuned therapist, but i’ve only seen her once so i’m not sure about much else. I think it’ll turn out alright. Anyway, i’ll still come to you to get as much of a broad scope of thoughts as i can.
5. The problems that take five seconds to solve are:
5a- Stop seeing me as lesser and leave me alone if you don’t wanna be around me. Why do i have to love it or at least tolerate it when an oppressed person antagonizes them? Why do so many believe one can’t hate an oppressed person hating or looking down on oneself because of respective privilege when
5b- Let all white cultures and associations be on par with all POC cultures and associations. In other words, why must my culture and everything else i genuinely own be a unique inferiority for the world to be right? What burden is there for POC to see what i have as good and my own? Everything i have is either stolen or bad.
Working to get it up to par and having an ideology revolving around POC is just awful. I am entitled to have non-evil things according to social justice that i don’t necessarily share with ALL POC, just the ones in my ethnicity/ culture/ whatever. Much of the opinions of those outside social justice don’t count because they are largely bad people (murderers, abusers, thieves, etc.) or apologists of such.
I already like myself, i need others to as well. Nobody is an island, and i need better archipelagos in my continent that actual malignant/ malevolent people like Charles Manson, Dylan Roof, and Donald Sterling.
5c- Lemme take influence from cultures outside my own. It makes no sense i should not do something because POC cannot and they originated it when i don’t harass them for it. I’m sick of this being a “gray area”, just stop pulling collective accountability and the idea that culture = immutable markers of a people. Nobody wants POC to not use their own culture. I am not cleaning up after “my people’s” own mess, because it’s beyond my control to stop beyond doing an amount of work. I am not some supergenius that can create culture, out of thin air nor do cultures/ meanings suddenly evaporate when cloned, nor does experience magically generate an artifact of a particular sort.
I also cannot take a poll to see what POC think, especially when the only acceptable answer is “Just invent your own stuff and live in island far away from POC!”. Like it’s that easy and i totally want the profit not the usage from other artifacts. I get behind genuine mockery, tho.
Vitriol aside, why do i have to follow Kat Blaque’s (who i don’t mind otherwise) definition of appropriation? Please don’t take the rest as a vent tho, i have no other way to explain this.
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Here’s a link to a convo i had with a guy who believes what i’ve been raving about. I’m Siyel and i haven’t posted any personal info there. I think he’s not angry at me or anything let alone a bad person at all, but the fact he would’ve dragged me (i.e. shame me publicly so i am doomed to be racist forever or atleast for five years straight at a time) is kind of telling.
I split this post because i put a link here and to induce brevity. Abagond, if this post is in moderation, please just delete this paragraph and the one before it and the link.
(https://www.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/42e5w2/cultural_appropriation_dreadlocks_wtf/)
Also, read the conquest post or the AngloAmerica posts on this blog to see what i meant (in the post itself and the comments) to find out what i mean when i say my culture is uniquely lesser.
See also Israel and how white Jews are apparently fabricating their connection to Judaism and Palestine, their history of anti-Semitism, and their belief that the Nakba exists. Why does nobody have an answer to the Jewish question beyond dismissive half-answers? Why would anyone chime in about the Palestine crisis if they didn’t give a half about the causes of and predecessors of Zionism?
I don’t think in sj most hate whites, white Jews, or privileged people at all, as much as look down on them and refuse to not antagonize or not support antagonization.
6. I’m sick of it being “huht widdo fee-fee white tears” to want even complain about anything. I know my frivolous complaints are such, and otherwise it’s because i think they’ll take five seconds to solve. I get i and white people in general can be to much to put up with, but why must i be antagonized instead of ignored and left alone if that’s the case?
I don’t think people want my self esteem because they actually care but again, because they have less use for a down and out worker.
I do believe my and all cultures have proportional amounts of good and bad. Just wish most others in sj believed so too.
Thanks in advance and apologies as usual if i’ve messed up.
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can you do a post on that coon tommy sotomayer?
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@Libre Penseur: Abagond did a post on him.
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@ Libre Penseur
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@ Uriel
Hey, wanted to let you know I saw your posts to me. It may take me a couple days to read the sources you mentioned or linked to and then think through my response. I’ll try to post my reply before the end of the week. Thanks!
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Is Trump going to win the Republican nomination? Does he have enough support to be president?
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@ Solitaire
Update:
(https://www.reddit.com/r/socialjustice101/comments/42vbmb/is_people_of_color_supremacy_a_real_substantive/)
There’s another link besides the other one i think you should read. If you have to answer any questions before the others, please make it the reddit one.
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The hilarity of rapper B.o.B and his foolishness about the earth being flat is so crazy and attempting to debate astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson just has me in stitches. And when black Twitter joins in it’s even more hilarious. I love black twitter by the way. Since B.o.B hasn’t had a hit in several years he is doing this schitick to stay relevant I guess because after his song about Airplanes everybody sort of forgot about him. Dude just needs to go to the library and read a remedial science book and just shut the hell up. Why must the most ignorant celebrities speak about things they know nothing about?
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@ Solitaire
A few more things:
If i come off repetitive in my response or forget to elaborate in anything lemme know, okay? I usually write as soon as i get the ideas for my response and/or am frustrated enough at whatever inspired my confusion- in other words, i generally write out of inspiration and stress rather than clarity (so i make these posts for addenda). We also can’t edit our posts on WordPress, so that’s a bummer. Finally, while i want to indulge my father’s culture (Ashkenazi Judaism), i have also decided i want to rewind my mother’s cultures in order to find something of un-Americanness or find something up to par with POC or “ethnic” white cultures. Denying that half of me would be denying my mother and most of my life.
A little belated but, here goes:
I don’t think sj people hate you because you’re a white Southerner, and even if they did they wouldn’t show it out of fear of harassment or general apathy. I think they think white Southern culture (and any other white culture) is an albatross (golf term, meaning three below par) and simply a bad existence. I don’t know what they think of white Southerners, if they have opinions on them as a whole, but it’s probably somewhere between resentment and condescension- based on my experience in sj movements and sj people that didn’t know me beforehand. I could be wrong, but my personal philosophy regarding impressions of people is to (politely) expect the worse so to not be disappointed and repent if i’m wrong about any judgements.
Cultural diffusion shouldn’t be careful and treaded lightly because respect should be so simple and obvious as to be second nature.
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And by up to par with POC, i mean why are they relative angels compared to me? There’s zero wrong with their communities that isn’t ten times worse in white communities, according to most of sj. I have to work to be a human and they’re born almighty according to anyone not a monster or monster apologist, why? Never was any POC hurt by thinking “White cultures are equal to ours even they should improve somethings.”. Nobody was harmed or killed by merely seeing anything belonging to white people and white people in general as enough even if they avoid them.
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Also:
*privilege whenever? Oh no, i hate somebody who hates me, is it that unfeasible to hate an individual and not wish them the absolute worst. Moreover, why can’t hating me bad as well, even it’s far less so. Every POC that hates white people (and gay person that hates straight people, intersex person that hates dyadics, etc.) get medals from sj. Plus, it’s never bias to look down on me or worse, it’s justice because privileged=oppressor=bad (worthy of hatred). Even other privileged people are allowed to hate me and belittle me. It has to be more than outright bigotry for my autism, and likely general prejudice and refuse to leave me alone on their part.
Long story short: Why are zealots always right about treating me like dirt?
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@ Uriel
“I usually write as soon as i get the ideas for my response and/or am frustrated enough at whatever inspired my confusion- in other words, i generally write out of inspiration and stress rather than clarity”
There is nothing wrong with that. I do that type of writing sometimes, too. But with my responses to yours, I’ve been writing more slowly in part because I’ve been trying to think things out carefully and in part because I’m still trying to adjust my writing style to be more concrete. I usually read over everything several times and make edits and revisions to improve clarity. I know that I still haven’t fully gotten the hang of the type of communication that isn’t allistic-centric.
So it is fine that you write quickly out of inspiration. All I am saying is that it just dawned on me that this is one reason for the lag time between your posts and my responses, because I’m writing the opposite way. The times when I have written back to you immediately, what I wrote turned out to be far too abstract and unclear.
Also, some unexpected things have come up in real life that will keep me rather busy for the next four or five days. Nothing bad, just unanticipated and unavoidable. So I may not be able to finish my replies and post them until after the weekend. I know you prefer a quicker response, so I do apologize for the delay. I also wanted you to know so that you wouldn’t think I was mad or anything.
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@ Solitaire
Read your thing. I’ll see you around Groundhog Day, hope it turns out alright. Thanks in advance for the responses you give. Nothing wrong with quality over alacrity.
Also:
I’ll mention the users on reddit i’m trying to deal with are Blank_username and therockingbed. Nothing against them personally, they are just being hostile, condescending, and confusing in a place explicitly for newcomers.
I’m sick of people preferring poetry to clarity in writing educational stuff. Or venting and expecting me to learn all the subtleties of it. Or expecting me to blindly follow.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Far be it for me to tell you how to teach your class, especially when you apparently have an understanding with the administration.
But if the course is supposed to cover roughly 1850 to 1899, personally I have trouble understanding why you’re focusing on maybe 10 to 20% of that time period, thus shortchanging Reconstruction, the Gilded Age, the Plains Indian Wars, etc., etc.
This is a serious question: If you are able to hold back your own opinions in your classroom when the students are debating, why do you bring up the Civil War here constantly? I realize it’s one of your favorite topics, but you don’t seem to be able or willing to restrain yourself here the way you do in your classroom.
And I agree with your student about Missouri. There was fighting not just between Kansas and Missouri but between pro-slavery and anti-slavery factions in Missouri. In some respects, Missourians had already been fighting the Civil War in their own state for years before the rest of the nation joined in. After the South seceded, for quite some time Missouri had two different state governments, one pro and one anti, one recognized by the Confederacy and one by the Union.
Missouri was a very complex situation, and it is greatly over-simplifying things to call it a pro-slavery state. It could have broken in two the way Virginia and West Virginia did, but the geographical division of pro and anti elements was not as pronounced. While there was something of a north/south division, it tended to be divided more depending on origin (early post-Revolutionary settlers from the South versus later immigrants from Germany), which meant many areas had almost an even mix of the two factions.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Also, in reference to something you said over on the original thread, it honestly doesn’t bother me that you have Union sympathies per se. What I do see as a problem is you have a very romanticized conceptualization of the Union and the North. The reality was a h*ll of a lot grittier and complicated.
Apparently you have a lot of stake in the idea that the North was morally perfect. I find that kind of dichotomous thinking to be just as fallacious as its opposite, the old historical theory of the Lost Cause.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
So you’re basically covering 1860 to 1867, give or take a couple years?
You do realize how long the Reconstruction era was?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“Also, I don’t completely hold back my opinions in class. I pose the discussion questions and express my stance at the end. However, to the extent that I do suppress anything, perhaps even subconsciously the Internet is a way to vent.”
Out of all the places on the internet you could go to vent, including sites specifically dedicated to history — quite possibly even specifically to the history of the Civil War — why do you vent here, on a blog mostly focused on current issues?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I also think the Civil War is extremely relevant when discussing many of the current issues brought up on this blog.”
I have yet to see a single person agree with that statement. Instead, you are considered to be a derailer if not an outright troll.
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@ Mirkwood
1.The Northeast, Inner Midwest, and Left Coast owned slaves too for quite a deal of time. It is not like they arrived purely out of good intention and total respect for those already there/ captive from slave trade. Had it been a passable or enough area for POC there wouldn’t be serious racism cases beyond a handful in the North. Do you think Southerners came up and brought their evil magic there?
2. America itself is in an inexcusable settler state, the power and reigns need to be returned to the appropriate Actual American groups. It’s one thing to immigrate out of necessity like a refugee, it’s another to never leave once you’ve outworn your welcome, and a whole ‘nother to forget that human civility thing. Go back to Ireland or step down (individually).
3. While modern colonialism did start with the Irish for the English- the Spaniards, the Dutch, the Russians, the French, and The Portuguese had a head start on chattel slavery and/ or total conquest. Even in the English’s case, the Irish rarely had an equally bad time as Actual Americans, Oceanics, and Blacks. At best, they were treated as bad as East Asians, South Asians, and Middle Easterners are now.
4. Race was invented to justify ALL ethnicity and skintone based atrocities going on at the time. Do you think racism was borne in England alone?
5. The South was and still is far more religious than the North. Calvinism and Puritanism weren’t even that strong.
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@ Solitaire I should say read what Abagond says and others says (even outside this site) about the English, white Europeans, whites, and the white Americans/ white diasporans in general instead of just white Americans and white Jews. It’s obvious anyone with even a fraction of sj knowledge sees white people, particularly the Nordics (ethnic English, Danish, Dutch, Faroese, French, Icelandics, Norwegians, and Swedish) as chaotic, evil, yet almost useless that won’t be any more for a half century. I seriously doubt non-English Nordics were ever victims of racism by the English.
It’s “Anglo-Nordic apologia” and “fee-fees” to want them to be seen as more. I’m quarter-Nordic (French and Swedish)/ quarter-Irish thru my mother, if you’re wondering why i’m taking this personal. I also bet whiteness will stop growing once all light-skinned people are accepted into it, provided whiteness goes much further.
By the way is this the “standings chart” of whiteness? Note that i mean people of light skin for the mentioned ethnicities, including the Nordics, and that i’m only including ethnic distinctions for the first seven, as appearance seems to matter more after that. I’m not sure where mixed people, passing people, or other minorities would lie.
I made it so i have a better understanding of racial standing in the world. This is probably a simplification, but i did try to be exhaustive.
Totally white:
1. Nordics (mentioned above)
2. Inner Central Europeans (Croatians, Czechs, Central/ High Germans [all sorts], Normans, Slovenians)
3. Outer Central Europeans (Arpitans, Celts, Czechs, Finns, Frisians, Istriots, Italians and Corsicans, Maltese, Occitans, Sardinians, Saxons [Low Germans], Sicilians, Slovaks, Ungarians [Hungarians])
4. Inner Eastern European and Traveller (Balts, Belarussians, Bulgarians, Celt Traveller, Estonians, Fyromians [Macedonians], Montenegrins, Polish, Russians, Scandinavian Travaller, Serbians, Sorbians, Ukrainians, Vlachs, Yenish)
5. Outer Eastern European and Traveller (Ashkenazi Jews, [New] Curonians, European Muslim ethnic groups, Ingrians, Izhorians, Karelians, Livonians, Pomeranians, European Romani, Rusyns, Saami, Silesians, Votics)
Somewhat white:
6. Inner Mediterranean (Andorrans, Portuguese, Spaniards, Turks)
7. Outer Mediterranean (Armenians, Assyrians, Basques, literal Caucasians, other Iberians, Llanitos, Maronites, Sefaradi Jews)
Not white yet:
8. Light-skinned West and South Asians (the Middle East, the Indian Subcontinent, and North Africa mean West and South Asia)
9. Light-skinned North and East Asians (north Afghanistan, Burma, Central Asia, China, Indochina, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, west Pakistan, Thailand, any actual peoples of the “Russian Far East”)
10. Dark-skinned North and East Asians (yes, i know this placement is odd, but when have any Ainus or Tuvans been considered terrorists as much as dark-skinned West and South Asians)
11. Dark-skinned West and South Asians
Will never be white:
12. Actual Americans, non-Middle Eastern Africans, and Pacific Islanders
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@ Solitaire
Also, Alan Turing does not count as white person genuinely seen as an actual human by sj, because everyone around rejected him once he was found out to be gay. Most other oppressions besides ableism and classism and occasionally sexism rode in along with racism. Therefore, his later life is not interpreted as an example of a person that was white proving to be enough like everyone else, but rather, a collateral victim of racism.
Ever read queer-based sj posts about how white queers benefit from cissexism, transphobia, and homophobia as if they engineered them despite being huge victims of them- even if not the hugest? Like from Darkmatter (nothing against them personally, or at all besides a few things)? Like i’m even halfway responsible for being treated like dirt by cis people for being agender~demimale (it fluctuates).
Plus, his accomplishments are also apparently nothing compared to anything done by any POC as well (including non-Nordic people like the Greeks/ Ashkenazi Jews/ Irish/ Spaniards before the time they were considered white). And it was built off stolen POC materials like certain ores. [this paragraph is venting, tho i do believe a good number of sj-supported zealots consider former POC like the Greeks as such provided they lived before they became white, and that their white descendants are too far removed; and that culture not resources/ effort are progenitors to innovation]
Also, i hate being told “just be a good person to others not like you, that’s all we want” when so many people have so many conflicting thoughts and the worst people can still wind up being supported. That sentence was not venting,
I do believe the answers to human morality can be solved quickly and permanently, with the variability coming from the truth to each case. Hence social justice’s attempt or past attempts to find it. I am baffled anyone’d think otherwise. It’s not like Physics or Aesthetics, where humanity will never know the full truth but should try anyway.
Feel free to answer this post and the previous post later than others or incorporate it with other questions.
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*That sentence was not venting.
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Edit: The Czechs and Slovasks are Outer Central European. I also meant to put the Aolandics, Gutnish, Elfalians-Jamtlandics, Romansh, and Scanians in the Inner Central European category.
I refer to Nordics when Abagond refers to Anglos, because all of the non-English people i see as Nordics are on about as equal footing as the English. That’s what i meant when i said non-English Nordics have never suffered racism from English Nordics.
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Interesting account of how life is for Black individuals, Travelling While Black (Internet link):
http://matadornetwork.com/tv/5-things-expect-traveling-black/
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*Slovaks not Slovasks.
@ Pumpkin
Ouch. I hope the gastrointestinitis ends soon.
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@ Solitaire and anyone who cares. I get my results by searching up my questions on google or something and finding a source that attempts to answer them. I know i’m giving an overload, but you don’t have to answer all listed posts at once. Just one list at a time, and feel free to include points from other posts. I am venting about my tone and hyperboles, but not my questions and understandings.
More places where i get my ideas:
1. https://gauchesinister.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/what-should-white-people-do-all-the-kindness-i-can-afford/
“Just be happy most of the good of the planet should hate you or at least look down on you because it could be worse.”. Why is appeal to higher cause approved within social justice? Everyone saying “get over it” always get loved and adored by sj like they did nothing bad. Because you can only bad if one is oppressive. Despite the fact this feeds into and is a one half the causes of my depression (the other half is always being personally lesser compared to others), and that being liked by only the scum of the earth, their apologists, with a handful amount of good people is not being liked, but being mistaken for somebody else.
2. http://angrywhitekid.blogs.com/weblog/2005/06/white_people_an.html
“You shouldn’t do things outside your culture because that’s flaunting- even if you don’t mean it, POC have every right to misinterpret whatever is meant to be communicated.”
Note that i don’t wanna do dreads/ mohawks (what is specifically talked about in the article), nor do i think whites should have them, but that’s for a reason already divulged here elsewhere on the blog (status grabbing). Nobody gets sympathy and respect from me after refusing to understand what somebody is trying to say. Nobody gets to pick and choose the meanings of somebody else’s communication. Why does anyone get to think otherwise?
For the reason i am skeptical of going into whatever culture(s) i do have, look below:
3. Nearly all people in sj want race to still exist, alongside ethnicity. But it is a common sj tennant that the white race is bad and will always be. Then, what do white people do to be redeemed and what race will they go into when everyone knows they were once white? I think the first two sentences are common enough thoughts to warrant a lack of a source.
The second-worst group in humanity, the Mongols, have their decendants being treated like crap by those around them (Russians, Chinese, Persians) long after the power imbalance shifted in the former victims’ favor. This is proof forgiveness never happens, but shame and revenge does, at least at a macro level. See also, the anti-Tamazic (B-rber is a slur or at least dated) sentiment in Spain, and the anti-French sentiment in England, the anti-Assyrian sentiment by Turks, and the anti-Mexican sentiment among some other Latin American countries. I am skeptical of cultural redemption, beyond accepting the people in it.
Compassion is not needed when social justice people have to not doom me and/ or all my things/ associations to permanent villainhood for stuff beyond my control, but really think they “need” to. Nobody should be angry i’m attempting to take away their ability to be respected by social justice while refusing to not force me to choose between autonomy and acceptance, because it is utter disdain and condescension on their part.
I know i’m not usually hated on an individual level, but i am part of a uniquely bad collective, and i’ll never achieve past that to be as good as POC in the eyes of a lot of social justice. In otherwords, being an individual is not enough, i need to have good associations as well. POC deal with this from pathetic white people and brainwashed other POC- but a) they shouldn’t have to, b) said people are the scum of the earth and have no room to judge, and c) said people will be hated and looked down on in progressively moreso as the years go on.
Ever read the “just get over it and be of use (a workloom) to the good people you so admire” comments Open Minded Observer sent me on my post?
4. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/07/white-people-ferguson-race-conversation
“Avoid acceptance, and don’t ask the people who know the absolute truths of racial justice redemption what to do to be good.”
Why is it fee-fees to want to be redeemed for being fraking born not oppressed? I am, and everyone is, entitled to be seen as human by enough GOOD people, not monsters like Dylann Roof, Lee Harvey Oswald, and the Aurora Killer. I cannot live on island with other white people. Why is it unfair to ask POC or sj in general to take 5 seconds to see me as an equal human and my culture as equal as anyone else’s?
If only i and like twelve (out of more than a billion humans) other people see me and my associations as enough, than i am worthless and beneath death* itself. In a group of 5,000 that actually know me, have known or will know me at some point- around a dozen is still a pathetic number.
*As, in dying would be cheating out of responsibility. That’s why nobody tells me to committ suicide or that the world would be better off i was dead. Zealots of sj hate my existence, past and present, so death would be avoiding punishment. I don’t want to kill myself, because i think there are plenty of people who could see me and my things as enough, but don’t because zealots convince them that doing such is fee-fees. Moreover, dying wouldn’t mean sticking it to them, but mutuall defeat, as i accomplished nothing in my life and i’d be absorbed in to the white legacy of evilness.
This is also what i meant when i said “nobody actually cares about my depression and self-esteem, but rather my work availability”. A sad worker is an ineffective or absent worker. Thus, i’m a resource not a person. I get not supporting white pride, but again, what race will i be if not white? I get doing work, but can i focus on myself first?
Why does anyone get to possibly doom me to villainhood without any answers? It’s not “discomfort” to have social acceptance by people who haven’t literally and individually murdered, stole, abused, or are apologizing for any of the above, it’s flatching common human respect and empathy.
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@ Solitaire, anyone else who read.
I guess i’m in a depression hit. I do forget what people say to me, sometimes out of frustration, tho. I mean as much as i said i meant in the post, but please excuse my tone. This is the only place i can vent with any hope of somebody patient listening. Once-a-week therapists are not enough.
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*sometimes out of frustration, i will ask again or scan backposts, tho.
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I know nothing about sports or sports teams but i learned who Cam Newton was. He is the “Quarterback” for the Carolina Panthers. I had to learn who this brother was and why this YT folks are so upset and losing their minds. Why all the hate? So i learned they don’t like it when he does his little victory dance. He is called among many things “arrogant” and prideful. Hmm….. Why are they policing this black man just because he wants to be celebratory? If this was their golden boy Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or Tony Romo there wouldn’t be a problem. But folks got a problem with this young brother. Well i will be watching the game on Sunday and i will be cheering him on. It’s like he’s the Serena Williams of football in my opinion. Go Panthers!!!!!! Go Cam!!!!!!
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Re: Solitaire’s comment to LoM
Not to mention the entire history of Asian immigration and exclusion at that time, Mexican pogroms, the Republic of Hawaii, the Spanish-American war (and the resulting acquisition of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines).
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RIP Maurice White of Earth,Wind,Fire.
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Hey, Solitaire, where are you? Are you doing okay?
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It is the new Lunar New Year where I am.
Best Wishes for the Year of the Monkey.
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@ Mary Burrell
Cam Newton refuses to adhere to the Nobel Negro Athlete template: contrite, quiet, overly humble and careful not to upset delicate white sensibilities or bruise fragile white egos. I wrote a piece about Richard Sherman a while back that addresses the same issue: http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2014/01/you-can-be-talented-arrogant-or-black.html
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@Mack Lyons: I agree I can’t believe how the dominant culture wants to control and police black people. What are we supposed to do hang our heads and be good contrite kneegroes? Just like with the Beyonce Formation video white people and their sensibilities and their fragility. What is it about being unapologetically black and the slogan black lives matter. What is so offensive about us loving ourselves and asking police to stop killing unarmed black people that makes whites respond so negatively to that?
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@Mary Burrell
That is exactly why I think most white commentators who complain about Political Correctness are being dishonest. They only complain about PC police when it does not involve them being criticized.
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In South Africa, white farmers don’t just have to deal with the drought but with the blood shed by their grandparents. Their privilege is crumbling and now they are showing their true faces.
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Political Correctness
Claiming such, is just another racist deflective tool they use in an attempt to shut you down. If some white person claims ‘political correctness’, that is one’s first clue that they are dealing with a blatant racist.
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@villagewriter
“…most white commentators who complain about Political Correctness are being dishonest.”
I did a whole commentary on my fb a while back about the term “Politically Correct”. I agree, 100% of people that use that term in a negative context are doing so because they resent feeling pressured to express themselves in a way that is inconsistent with their core beliefs. That’s the whole reason for adding the prefix “Politically” to the term. They are deliberately being disingenuous to avoid conflict which may negatively impact them and/or for their own personal benefit. Whenever I hear or read that term, it immediately raises my suspicions of the person expressing it. Because honestly, if you’re acting and expressing yourself in concert with your core beliefs, then you’d consider your actions to simply be “Correct” without the need to prepend “Politically” right?
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The term in and of itself is oxymoronic.
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@ Mary Burrell
We’re not supposed to love ourselves. We’re supposed to love Massuh.
Loving,respecting, strengthening and enriching ourselves means breaking free of white societal control. It also means we no longer love Massuh, and that’s bad. That sort of self-determination spells trouble for a white American society that lives in fear of losing its own power, while watching blacks grab the brass ring and assert their newfound power and authority.
Even if we don’t hate Massuh, the fact that we don’t unconditionally and blindly love him means that we hate him. That’s the sort of logic mainstream white America’s working with. “You’re either with us or against us.”
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Rest In Peace Whitney Houston remembering you today.
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@Mack Lyons Thanks for your response and candor.
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@Village writer Thanks for your response.
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http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/feb/13/supreme-court-justice-antonin-scalia-dead-at-79
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Herneith @
ding dong, the witch is …
may he rest in peace
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Jefe
I left you a message here (in case you miss it)
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Just not caring about Scalia he was a turd💩💩💩
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@ Pumpkin
Thank you.
@ Linda
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Vanity, RIP.
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Dear Lord… 2016 has been a Beast!!!
2 months in and another star has fallen.
RIP Vanity… she was still beautiful and slaying on these young chicks, with 1/2 a kidney and an colostomy bag.
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Linda, found your comment. Thanks.
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@Abagond
Why are you calling Scalia a white man when he has the same skin tone that most Latinos have? Why call him “white” if his heritage is a Latin (Italian)? Please explain to me.
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R.I.P. Vanity.
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Curious how some people don’t get it right when it comes to race affairs…
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/02/11/entertainment/meryl-streep-comment–feat/index.html?iref=obinsite)
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@Linda was that a recent picture of Vanity?
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I guess in that photo of a very unrecognizable Vanity even though she is older and the woman in the photo still is an attractive lady she gained weight probably from medications like steroids she was probably just glad to be alive to celebrate another birthday. It’s still hard to believe she passed away. I remember going to Prince concerts and Vanity6 and Morris Day and The Tyme would be the opening act. Guys loosing their minds over Vanity and Sheila E. Those were great concerts.
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Mary, I believe the picture was from 3 years ago, either 2012 or 2013
but either way, with everything going on medically, she held up well
She was easily hands down, one of the most beautiful women in the 80s, she had men losing their minds, acting like a bunch of groupies. (like my brothers)
I watched the Soul Train video of Vanity 6 performing, she Don Cornelius and the male audience were mesmerized and drooling.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh1zR0Oa7UM>😉
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I think this picture is also within the last 5 years:
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Harper Lee, RIP.
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I read about Harper Lee’s passing on my newsfeed. To be honest I thought she died many years ago. R.I.P.
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https://www.propublica.org/article/brooklyn-prosecutors-woman-spent-10-years-prison-crime-likely-didnt-commit?utm_source=pardot&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailynewsletter
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Jesus! I didn’t know Vanity was gone.
I read Linda’s comment about Vanity’s kidney problem. I didn’t understand how that could be a problem until I read that years of drug use was what damaged her health. It’s making me think about cause and effect…
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Shameful
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/san-jose-state-not-ruled-hate-crime_us_56ccb48de4b041136f188b0e
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It makes me sad to learn that Melissa Harris-Perry and MSNBC are parting ways i looked forward to viewing every Saturday and Sunday morning. It was weekend ritual to wake up and catch the 9am show and have my breakfast in pj’s. This really sucks. I am now watching the Oscars just to see what Chris Rock is going to say. So far i am listing to his montage and he’s pretty funny.
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*opening monologue* ^^ not montage.
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I am really concerned about this Donald Trump thing. Are we going to have another Ronald Reagan in the white house. The last one supported apartheid and a number of coups in Africa.
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I too am scared sh!tless about Trump as well these racist a*holes are turned up. I have to be honest I don’t really know what to do because I don’t like HRC or Bernie Sanders. I hate Republicans and I wonder Trump always talking about making America great again in what way does this demon want to make America great again? Send us back to the Jim Crow era? These color aroused dogs would like nothing more than to have that happen then that’s when there will be a full blown race riot and blood in the streets of every city in America. Trump is a nightmare.
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@ Pumpkin
Yes, I will.
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Whoop! Whoop! TGIF, people! 😀
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Hey everyone, I’m heading out or at least taking a LONG hiatus. I’ve found other places to be (mainly Reddit), realized i don’t have much to do (with) here, and frankly i don’t want the attention that comes with running a blog on WordPress (I was starting a site if you did not know)- altho I am free to contact via email for educating and handling other white people on most subjects besides white guilt and cultural appropriation (to an extent).
@Abagond My email is in my user profile, and since this isn’t a personal account, i’m not using a personal email- but one of many i use on the side. I put no personal info anywhere on this account or said email, so can you not delete this please.
Also, I know I’ve burned a lot of bridges here, and I just want to say I really apologize and will never make the same mistakes again, and i’ll leave anyone who wants to be alone alone.
If I come back or revolving door (do cycles of exiting and returning) for whatever reason, but then leave forever one day without warning, consider this the notice, I suppose.
I might delete my account altogether one day, tho.
@Solitaire
If you’re not gone, but still want to contact me, feel free to do so by email. Or reddit (email me for the username I use) at the subreddits sj101 and maybe sjdiscussion when it is revived.
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Thanks for whatever good deeds I’ve gotten everyone.
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This is utterly disgusting…
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiE-6bwqajLAhUM8GMKHWOVDBUQqQIIHjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsone.com%2F3368057%2Froland-martin-trump-girls-diamond-silk-clash-on-newsone-now%2F&usg=AFQjCNF3mA-wSAyZQwU6mxln7pQTKe6WUA
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@jabari jones: I have seen those woman all over social media and they are disgusting. Farrakhan says he likes him too so go figure. That was vomit inducing and cringeworthy.
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@Jabari Jones: Trump might be paying those women.
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Of course he is–and Farrakhan seems to like Trump because he–like Trump, has a “Jew” Problem.
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@jabari jones: I do remember over the yeas Farrakhan making statements that “The Jewish religion is a gutter religion.” Farrakhan’s hatred for Jewish people is intense. I knew Trump doesn’t like Muslim’s but i didn’t know he hated the Jews too. He hates everybody who is not white.
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Trump once insulted Jews–calling them ,”good negotiators” http://www.salon.com/2015/12/05/if_you_are_a_jew_you_should_be_very_afraid_of_donald_trump_partner/
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/3/9089495/donald-trump-racist
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Former First Lady Nancy Regan dies at age 94. RIP.
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@Mary Burrell. Regarding Trump’s issue with Jewish people. I believe that his daughter is a practicing Jew who converted to the religion after she married a Jewish man. (I may be wrong but I believe that was mentioned when she got married a few years ago) Why that has not been mentioned in the media when he makes those remarks, seems strange to me.
@Agabond. Do a post on Nancy Regan. There’s so much that can be said about her “love” of minorities in the US.
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Behold the Lazy Black man (and woman) in his native habitat.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOaWQVigom4)
Fascinating to watch if you have a few minutes
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@ Anne
Good suggestion, but currently I have as much desire to write about Nancy Reagan as I have to write about a hairball.
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@Mary
Pretty sure he hates everybody who is not Trump.
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https://carey.liberty.me/thanks-to-court-ruling-student-literally-cant-attend-school-because-hes-black/
“An African-American third-grader in St. Louis, Missouri will be unable to continue attending his charter school due to a decades-old federal court decision intended to fight segregation. Edmund Lee, a high-performing student at Gateway Science Academy, will be forced to leave the school he has attended since kindergarten because he and his mother, La’Shieka White, are moving away from the district where the school is located. Though policy guidelines, pursuant to the court decision, allow students to stay if they move, a provision specifically states he cannot — because he is black.”
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Random thought… I’ve noticed a lack of comments about Asian women’s dating preferences on the open thread.
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@Anne
It would be great if a separate post were put up for that so that it does not dominate the discourse of dozens of other threads.
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http://howafrica.com/14-african-countries-forced-france-pay-colonial-tax-benefits-slavery-colonization-2/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost
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@Kiwi,
Yes, that made my day. I guess you never know what you have until it’s gone.
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Get it into you!
http://www.alternet.org/belief/christian-prophet-loses-his-buttocks-hungry-lion-while-trying-prove-god-would-save-him?akid=14055.1929437.4ACtlH&rd=1&src=newsletter1052396&t=16
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My wife went out tonight to the opera. Opera really isn’t my thing thus she went by herself. I do like most classical music and enjoy the philharmonic.
So it’s me and my Irish whisky listening to the Fugees.
Great audio is like a good book only more expensive up front.
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@michaeljonbarker : I concur
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“Prejudice is an emotional commitment to ignorance.” Nathan Rutstein.
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Has anyone seen the hoax about the Trump supporter in Chicago? http://www.snopes.com/black-trump-supporter-shot/
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My husband drops by Abagond’s blog more often than I thought. Well, today’s our anniversary. So to my baby I say Thank you for being the light of my life. God has blessed me with you and your love. Happy Anniversary, baby! ❤ ❤ ❤ (Sorry Abagond. I'm really cheesy)
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Your husband must be a very lucky guy. Congratulations on your anniversary and many many more to come!
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Congrats Leigh!
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@ Shazaam:
Thank you!!! I consider myself the very lucky one to have such a special man in my life. He’s a keeper! 😀
@ Herneith:
Aww, thank you, love. ^_^
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Folks, some advice for those who fly frequently and are germaphobes:
http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/03/15/how-to-avoid-the-filthiest-parts-of-airports-and-airplanes
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@leigh204: Congrats
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@Anne: Gotta love Snopes for debunking rumors.
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@ Mary Burrell:
Thank you, sweetie! 🙂
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Mohammad Ali is the man, not the Donald
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeFMyrWlZ68)
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Congratulations leigh204, may you have many more.
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Hmmm.. Where these men just “acting their color?”
http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-up-to-200-men-attack-police-in-cologne-spark-investigation-2016-3
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@ veritasvenustas:
Oh, thank you! I’m counting on it! 🙂
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@ Pumpkin:
I appreciate it. Thank you, my dear! 😀
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I must say it is not that much fun being bitten by a spider on your bottom. If you can imagine a hot rusty screw being left out in the Namib desert, boring through to your brain.
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@ Pumpkin
Thanks.
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@toatesan
Sorry to hear about your spider bite(a day late). Hope you are better soon.
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@ Afrofem
Thank you for your kind words.
I am fine and relieved now after emergency surgery. There puts paid to the idea of competing in a body-building competition.
And if I may, in the same breath, and not to embarrass you,say how much I enjoy your presence on Abagond’s blog.
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@taotesan
Emergency surgery! That sound really serious and painful. I’m glad you made it through.
I enjoy your presence on the blog also.
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@taotesan: Get well soon.
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@ Mary and Afrofem
Thank you. I am fine now.( and listening to Handel’s Messiah). If you celebrate Easter, hope you are having a very good time with your families.
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@ Mary and taotesan
I hope you both enjoyed a great Easter!
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@Afrofem: I had a nice quiet Easter hope you and had a nice holiday.
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Folks, I am sitting hear scarfing down delicious California rolls. Discuss.
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@ Herneith
Oooh, I hope you have some Ikura (salmon caviar) on those rolls! I love Ikura!
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@Herneith
I have a question.
You wrote a very interesting comment in 2011.
It read like a mini book chapter. You ended with the words, “On to round 2!”
If you feel comfortable sharing, I’m dying to know what happened in round 2? If not, it will remain an intriguing mystery. (smile)
While reading that comment, I thought about how Abagond has written a post on White women’s tears.
Perhaps he should also do a post on White men’s tears. I have personally seen White men deploy tears as an effective weapon against those “bad” Black people who call them on their White Supremacist behaviors.
Soooooo?
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@AfroFem:
Round 2 culminated in me winning a settlement of 4,000 dollars CDN, that’s about fifty dollars American in today’s currency exchange(only kidding!). Was I satisfied? Not really as I asked for 100,000 dollars. In Canada, you do not get the humungous settlements that they get in the States. I was lucky to get that! Of course, there were admissions of wrongdoing. These people are systemically racist. That’s fine as long as you pay for the privilege, after all, I find the privilege of paying for white supremacy the only white privilege I am in full accordance.
When I went to my second hearing, I had to leave the room and go to the washroom. Whilst in the toilet, I went into paroxysms of laughter(I couldn’t laugh in their face now could I?), as I knew they were and are, full of shite. They probably thought I went in there to weep disconsolately. Anyhow, it took me a good ten minutes before I could return to the room and maintain a straight face. The thing that caused this hilarity was the fact that they all had looks of false sympathy, empathy? Who knows, maybe they were just constipated or full of gas?
The other complaint where I, along with other Black people, were threatened with death, assault and other white sexual fantasies were settled with non-disclosure pacts prior to this complaint. They have yet to apprehend the loon who was penning these ‘Dear N***er’ letters. Anyhow, don’t get mad, get paid. Forking out cash goes a long way in assuaging one’s suffering(invest it),causes change. If you peruse history, most change comes on the heels of economic upheaval of some sort. I am not comparing my plight with historical seismic occurrences but am using it as a way of illustrating how things work; not from a moral compass but that of a ‘George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and the other aholes portrayed on your money. That is what spurs much of changes that occur. That’s my theory, and I’m sticking to it! Thanks for asking.
P.S. If you can’t fight em, sue em!
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White man tears or the equivalent: Go home, drink a quart of liquor, smoke a few spliffs, inject heroin or perhaps ingest some meth all the while proclaiming; ‘I’m not raciss’! Maybe they scream racial expletives at the Black quarterback on t.v.? A post on white man’s tears would be like one long joke fest. I heartily second your suggestion!
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_MQiuUoVZA)
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@Herneith
WOW! That was worth the wait. What a story!
White Supremacist ideology has really done a number on White folks gray matter…misfiring synapses everywhere.
I’m glad you didn’t walk away empty-handed. However, four grand was not enough for all of that drama.
Thank you for sharing Round 2!
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A Monday chuckle:
http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/04/01/6-least-enjoyed-april-fools-pranks
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I saw today on TV the news about the “The Panama Papers”.
Being an African I cannot escape to be glad because people always try to associate corruption and other governmental malpractices to the African continent ant its various peoples.
The fact of the matter is that “The Panama Papers” are exposing, to everybody to see, how such bad behaviors seem to belong to the human condition in general (and not to the African condition in particular).
It seems that the fairest and purest Whites are as unclean and sinful as the darkest Blacks!
Ah…
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The Panama papers are just the tip of the Ice Berg. I have always suspected that the world economy has been rigged by a few filthy rich people in the USA and Europe. I have been proven right countless times. John Pilger has opened my eyes on why we have wars and who those wars benefit. From the Rwanda genocide, the cold war, Iraq war, Palestine wars; there is always a rich douche bag in the west pulling the strings so that he can money to expand his infinity pool or gold-plate his latest sports car. These psychopaths live in Monaco, Los Angeles, New York, Sidney, Moscow, London, Israel and Cape Town. They will stop at nothing to get power; better not stand in their way.
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In white privilege news:
http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/somali-journal-launches-without-any-somali-voices-highlighting-another-case-of-white-privilege-in-academia
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@Jabari Jones
Have you ever tried engaging with a so called “white expert on AFrican issues”? Well I did with a guy from Switzerland who felt that he knew more about how I live in Africa than I did and that I should just shut up and listen. When I asked him whether he had ever set foot in Africa, he said no. His arrogance gave me a migraine.
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I used to live and work in Africa. The European people I worked with there were so arrogant and narcissistic. They really do think that they know what’s best for everyone.
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Just saw a great video of Gov. Rick Scott (Florida) getting “blessed out” by a woman at Starbucks:
(https://youtu.be/SUrtFD6-wH4)
Priceless!
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Also saw where the local media in Florida fact-checked and critiqued the citizen’s comments but never, ever fact chec and critique what lying politicians say.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXB9wCBgH54)
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Bill Clinton on Black Lives Matter. He defended everything Hillary said 20 years ago.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/bill-clinton-black-lives-matter-protesters-are-defending-murders-and-drug-dealers/article/2001877
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@Michael Jon Barker
Yes, I noticed how easily he slid into rightwing talking points.
He and his spouse are completely unrepentant for the damage they caused to Black people and working people.
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Abagond: A post on ESPN Bomani Jones wearing the tee shirt with the words “Caucasians” with the Cleveland Indians logo emblazoned on the front has the whites in an uproar this to me is hypocrisy and seeing how Native Americans have complained about how offensive the logos are the white sports club owners have been dismissive and gave zero damns. Now with Bomani Jones wearing the tee shirt white people responded with outrage.White folks need to do self reflection and get their heads out of their hinder parts.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/10/the-radical-political-independence-of-jackie-robinson.html?via=newsletter&source=DDMorning
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Prophetic! scroll down to the article contained within the article, it quotes Jackie Robinson.
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@ Mary Burrell
Can you share a link to that article?
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@ Mary
Excellent suggestion! Thanks.
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@ Mary:
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On the Bill Clinton thread the question came up why non-white South Africans are voting for the DA. I only know the three largest parties of which the DA is the most economically liberal. Does anybody know if there are relevant parties to the economic right of the DA? A quick Wiki search suggests the Inkatha Freedom Party, maybe?
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@ kartoffel
Not sure what you mean by what you mean by economically liberal or economic right of the DA. My understanding of economics is very limited, anyway.
There are many political parties in South Africa. Many small parties that have no parliamentary representation, like the Dagga Party(Marijuana Party), Green Party, etc. Xhoisan Revolutionary Party.
There is, of course , the ANC majority party protecting white interests, with bad service delivery to Blacks, with the most representation of Black parliamentarians with about 235 seats.
The official opposition party, the Democratic Alliance,with 89 seats in parliament, representing white interests in the Cape, in their stronghold, the service delivery serves the (rich) white sector, with a trickle-down near non-expenditure to the most economically disadvantaged.
The DA was a merger between the New Nationalist Party, i.e. the white old guard and the Democratic Party.
The Inkatha Federal Party is mostly supported by Zulus in Qua-Zulu Natal. To addle your brain somewhat, an Italian, Mario Oriani-Ambrosini was a member and Chief Gatcha Buthelezi the leader.
Then are much smaller parties:
VryheidsVront (Freedom Front) for conservative Afrikaners with about 5 seats
Cope
EFF(Economic Freedom Fighters) mostly for urgent land reform, with about 10 seats. They were a surprise in the last the election. Their presence in parliament is due to complete frustration with the ANC and , with its willing-buyer land redistribution policy. Only 5/6% of white stolen land has been bought from whites since 1994, leaving white people still owning more 85/90% of the land most and still most of the economic power.
I feel I have only provided barebones information. I am not au fait with the macro and micro economic analysis and can only provide a broad strokes breakdown.
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By “economically (classical) liberal” I meant those parties that generally are for less regulation, bureaucracy and wealth distribution and generally for more free market relative to the standard of the society. Normally these policies appeal to a) the rich b) the self-employed (above substinance-level) and c) well-paid employees in the private sector.
As far as my limited knowledge of South African politics goes from the three top parties the DA holds that spot. My question was, if of the smaller parties there are some who are more “economically classical liberal” than the DA. Because that could explain why non-whites are voting for them , if they fall into one of the categories above.
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Hey Abagond! Have you heard the idea that Neanderthal admixture in Eurasians may actually be African heritage? Ambrose & Hirbo float this idea on p. 2 of the Paleoanthropology Society Meeting Abstracts, which I link to as my “website” in this comment. Hirbo is Black, and I think this is an example of ideas which may not occur to white scientists. Very interested to see where this goes…
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Their is a front page piece today in the New York Times called “Black victim’s step forward for Clinton’. Basically she flew them all to Chicago so that she could ask them “one by one to tell their stories”.
Their stories need to be heard but Clinton’s purpose is purely for politicale gain. I think she is doing this to deflect away from the heat she has been getting for supporting the crime bill and point the attention away from the real effects Bill policies had on the Black community.
I find it disgusting.
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@michaeljonbarker
When would the Clinton Machine pass up an opportunity to manipulate the public? HRC is is damage control mode and the NYT is acting as her stenographer. Nothing new there….
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@ Kiwi
I cannot prove this, but I suspect that just about the time Jews began to dominate US media, in the middle 1900s by way of New York and Hollywood, was also the time when blonde-haired, blue-eyed women became something of a status symbol for Jewish men. Thus the “ideal”. They are pretty much the only ones in the US who would both see it as an “ideal” on their own AND have the media power to push it.
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In the first two weeks after Michael Brown was killed, Hillary Clinton tweeted nothing about it:
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@ Fan…
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@ taotesan…
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@Fan…
I had scrapped a long, very subjective and personal narrative.
I think we are both very interested in learning about the African Diaspora. I am also very interested in the parallels and similarities of experiences, amongst other things, the US/ South Africa/ Africa and have a spiritual connection to African Americans, which I find hard to explain. I am a bambino in any kind of critique of white supremacy. I am still on the starting blocks in connecting the dots and decolonizing my mind, reading and learning from the/our wise and courageous scholars and liberation heros. I dare say I have my eyes and ears open to some of admired commenters on Abagond’s blog, Abagond definitely included.
I understand quite a bit and can synthesize the many put together insights in my mind, but sometimes I struggle to flesh out the muscle only describing the bare bones. Tonight is one of those times.
( I would say if any of the you tube videos uploaded are by white South Africans, it is bound to be very one-sided and part of what I call the cry-baby cottage industry But I am sure even that could give you some insight into their mentality).
In the meantime, if I could suggest John Pilger’s documentary : “Apartheid Did Not Die.”
He is one of the few white people I have a very regard for. His investigative journalism is unstintingly of the highest calibre.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlh2nUWrzs)
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@Fan…
My comment to you is in moderation.
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@ Taotesan
You guys in SA, Namibia, Angola and Mozambique still suffer the trauma of racism (I am aware I am generalizing). I have noticed that blacks in SA are terrified of white people. I may be wrong.
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Discovered the Boondocks and thought the Ruckus guy was a caricature then I discovered Jesse Lee Peterson and Larry Elder. I mean wow….that’s a mess.
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@ taotesan
“I think we are both very interested in learning about the African Diaspora. I am also very interested in the parallels and similarities of experiences, amongst other things, the US/ South Africa/ Africa and have a spiritual connection to African Americans, which I find hard to explain.”
.
For me it’s as simple as having relatives in a place where my ancestors originate from. I haven’t yet traced my genes to determine specifically where my African roots are. Nonetheless I too feel a spiritual connection to the Motherland and her people. We are family. If we didn’t start out that way in the beginning, whites supremacy/racism has made us so now!
“I am a bambino in any kind of critique of white supremacy. I am still on the starting blocks in connecting the dots and decolonizing my mind, reading and learning from the/our wise and courageous scholars and liberation heros.”
Sounds familiar… a life long journey/experience. Trying to unlearn the junk!
“I understand quite a bit and can synthesize the many put together insights in my mind, but sometimes I struggle to flesh out the muscle only describing the bare bones. Tonight is one of those times.”
Welcome to the club! My brain of late seems to spend most of its time in a *numb* state…. until some snarky disrespectful commenter (or whatever) snaps it out of its sleeping/standby state.
“( I would say if any of the you tube videos uploaded are by white South Africans, it is bound to be very one-sided and part of what I call the cry-baby cottage industry But I am sure even that could give you some insight into their mentality).”
I haven’t seen any put up by white South Africans. But I have seen one or two Black produced videos about how some changes in apartheid has affected some poor whites now living in ALL WHITE squalor, parks and crime ridden areas. Speaking of whites in SA, I was intrigued to learn that Bishop D Tutu had told some whites that they are very lucky to be alive! I think that’s a valid point, given the history of SA. Segregation/apartheid still persists there (like here) with the people largely divided by race.
I’ve also watched a taped SA TV show featuring a sizable audience of Blacks, Colored and whites sitting in a circular setting (I forget the name of the show) with a Black female host and moderator discussing with prominent Blacks, Coloreds & whites South Africans of influence how the country might move forward, pet peeves and so on. A few angry colored and white audience members had to be escorted off the show…but at least the SA people are coming to the table trying to discuss/listen re RACISM, and how to move forward. There is no televised movement like that here.
SA young people seem very bright and hopeful. Therein lies tomorrow.
“In the meantime, if I could suggest John Pilger’s documentary : “Apartheid Did Not Die.””
I remember JP from awhile back when he was exposing corrupt US politics and elections and such. No Amerikan journalist could uncover & expose what he did, and remain alive! I will try to watch his documentary.
“He is one of the few white people I have a very regard for. His investigative journalism is unstintingly of the highest calibre.”
Agreed!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlh2nUWrzs)
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@villagewriter
@Fan….
Ay, my responses disappeared in the ether. Will post after the weekend.
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@ Villagewriter
I still do know how to answer your question adequately. Please do not take my word for it and the scope of your question demands a greater investigation into it. I can but only offer a microcosm of it. It is something I think about often. When I think how the Aboriginals in Australia or the Maoris in New Zealand are still treated, or the forgotten memories of the people of the Congo, or the Herero or the San in Namibia or the poor landmine amputees of Angola then it is very difficult to make a comparison.
I think each country in the SADEC has suffered immeasurably from white interference and domination, and some in different ways. Botswana, perhaps the least affected.
I could only talk about South Africa with any kind credibility as it is the place I am familiar with, even if I am wrong. I have a few friends from the Congo and Zimbabwe, and the one thing they all remark on, even though South Africa is ‘beautiful’ and they stay for varied reasons, is that the people here are aggressive and angry (meaning South Africans in general). What I have interpreted from this is the special Afrikaner and English ‘flavour’ of domination has influenced the psyche of this nation. It is ugly.
The way I see it, no-one (people who are not white) is completely unscathed by it and it is manifested differently. Although there has been some changes 22 years, it still feels as if yesterday has never left.
The Angolans and the Moçambicans have had their civil war and South Africa did not. We have a different kind of ‘war’. We are still living in a white matrix.
The/ my wounds, even as I am writing this, get ripped open, I am back there, forcing myself to the present.
Of course, you would know that there is a Black Middle class and a very tiny Black elite that did not exist twenty two years. And that is thanks to affirmative action policies and not the goodness of white people.
But many people are still suffering terribly, although many apartheid laws were repealed, the living conditions are beyond descriptionm in a land of plenty. The whites have mostly not changed. Sometimes, you can even tell a white Zimbabwean from a white South African in the way they complain. Actually, it is so racist here that not one white person ever voted for the apartheid government. From the very start they were telling us to get over it. Did you know, according to the beneficiaries and colluders apartheid is not a crime against humanity?
You have heard of our ‘peaceful transition’. We were sold down the river, never mind. Asked to handhold and forgive our oppressors! The Truth And Reconciliation nonsense. The Frantz Fanon decolonialiaztion process was thwarted from us.There are many that have come to see that Nelson Mandela ‘sold out’ at the secret negotiations with the white elite businessman- leaving the whole of the economy and all the land still in the hands of the oppressors. The whites had got off scot-free.
You asked if we are afraid of whites . Perhaps in Nelson Mandela’s case, perhaps he knew of the civil wars in neighbouring countries after the Portuguese left destroying and taking everything with them or the French criminal extortion in West Africa. Or he intuited that white South Africa’s best buddies-the US, Britain and Israel could train their nuclear warheads, if he not cede to the negotiations We know of the violence and (economic) power that white people still possess.
The farmers and domestic workers,very little different from slaves, are the most vulnerable, the most exploited and abused by whites with their plight only receiving national dialogue recently. Some workers are paid in the very cheapest wine , by the ultra-rich wine farmers with ACRES AND ACRES OF AFRICAN LAND, inducing livelong alcoholism and in children foetal alcohol syndrome. This is taking place on African land. The psychological abuse of the domestic workers in their own land is nothing less than criminal. They would lose the little livelihood, way below the poverty line, suffer more abuse or face chronic unemployment should they talk back to the white settlers.
I would say the ancestral handover through generations of fear through all the stages of European violence- genocide, slavery, colonialism and apartheid and contemporary economic dominance still has a vice-grip of painful psychic scarring, in spite of the intentions of healing of the colonized. And still there are the many brazen, brave and beautiful who are not afraid to challenge them or the government, people like Andile Mngxitama and the late Steve Biko.
The roiling cauldron of despair, frustrations and the age-old humiliations and indignities through structural racism, landlessness, high chronic unemployment, unbearable-socio-economic conditions, betrayal by the ANC, sometime soon the tinder-box will be lit and a conflagration is going to blow up in the ANC’s face.
For many, yesterday was bad and today barely indistinguishable from yesterday.
End of long ramble.
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@taotesan
That was a most illuminating “long ramble”. Since you are in the belly of that particular beast, you get to see the pain up close and personal.
Thank you for sharing your view.
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@taotesan
I was confronted by an Afrikaner bully on a social media site. Some “colored” person had dared to state that any tourist coming to South Africa should expect reverse racism from black people. I lost it right there. I was typing like my life depended on it. After putting the clown in his place the bully appeared from nowhere and started defaming me; saying he knew me from somewhere and I should not be trusted. I reported him to social media moderators but only after he had totally made apartheid look like it was such an angelic experience for black South Africans. He claimed that you black South Africans like to use the race card and that after 1994 everything was great but you ruined it. After pointing out his hollow logic and making him run away with his tail between his racist legs, I realized that no other black South African had challenged him on the site. I assumed it had something to do with fear but I also found out that most black people in South Africa do not have access to the internet. Thanks for your answer and I hope after Penny Sparrow spat many South Africans realize that the rainbow nation was a myth. Thanks again
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/04/19/1517530/-Imperial-Wizard-of-Georgia-KKK-killed-after-shootout-with-police?detail=email&link_id=1&can_id=5029d2998d8e7bbd5f1240b28acb7a21&source=email-imperial-wizard-of-georgia-kkk-dies-after-shootout-with-police&email_referrer=imperial-wizard-of-georgia-kkk-dies-after-shootout-with-police&email_subject=imperial-wizard-of-georgia-kkk-dies-after-shootout-with-police
The Knights of the Ku Deluxe Clowns strikes again. It was an eight-hour standoff with this jackass finally committing suicide. Had it been a black person, the cops would have thrown bombs or stormed the place and blown the person away within minutes.
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Folks, I just purchased this purse from Roots. They sent me a 50% discount coupon via email. How could I resist? Discuss.
http://www.roots.com/ca/en/olivia-bag-tribe-18011385.html?cgid=leatherShoulderBags&start=80&selectedColor=024#start=80
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In total shock RIP Prince.😱😢
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Their seems to be a rise in white identiy politics.
Trump supporters manifest this and it is a growing movement on college campuses.
That might make a good post.
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Won’t someone help us figure out who Becky is? The world has come to a standstill because we need to know. We need to know!
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On the issue of police in Black neighbourhoods.
I noticed that some voices on the matter say that Black neigbourhoods are over-policed, some that they are under-policed. Now my question is if this is due to a difference in assessment of the same situation, or if there are regional differences and both over- and under-policed areas exist.
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@ Fan… villagewriter and Afrofem
Sorry for staccato exchange.
@ Afrofem
“Since you are in the belly of that particular beast, you get to see the pain up close and personal.”
When reading and comparing South Africa and Black USA (and Palestine) there are many similarities. One could say that you, too, are in the belly of the beast. I am highly appreciative of your affirming voice.
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@villagewriter.
Good for you! From your comments here you must have slayed him.
One of the reasons amongst many why I like Abagond’s Blog, is that I can get away from South African white presence. Because the racial tension has been heightening (it never went away), I went online to seek dialogue about racial issues. BIG MISTAKE.
Although the media is still strongly dictated by white males, there are of course excellent Black journalists and writers, whether they write about “ Please do not tell us to get over it” Or “Uninspected Privilege”, that writer ( if I guess correctly) will be left bruised and battered after the comment section. 300-500 Comments of condescension, blatant rudeness and the worst racist vitriol. One or two Black commenters might write a fair comment about racism , only to be torn to shreds leaving one in no doubt that apartheid was not a mistake, with a fraction of liberals barely criticizing other racists.
Penny Sparrow* was stupid. She just could not help herself. Can you imagine being an unrepentant racist with all that pent-up stuffing of not being able to racially abuse any which way however whenever any which way whites did during apartheid? I am not taken in by any white person condemning her, esp. F. W. de Klerk. Her cardinal sin was to tweet about it- speaking out aloud what is said behind closed doors.
I know I am a stuck record, but this Rainbow Nation nonsense has set us back big time. A big crock. And Tutu should come out and say he was wrong. I am still upset with myself for having thought that white people could change their attitude, if only they could see the evidence of Black suffering. (which is ubiquitous). I am appalled by their indifference and (hypocrisy). To paraphrase the late great Steve Bantu Biko : “white racism is only possible because whites are indifferent to suffering and patient with cruelty”.
As a matter of fact, it is very important (to them) that Africans should suffer. Instead of holding these land thieves to account, we have squandered time giving them the benefit of the doubt. They have shoved the hand of magnanimity and forgiveness that Blacks have extended to them by being as entitled, ungrateful and racist as they already were. Remember, apartheid, really was never meant to come to an end. (And it has not).
As for Namibia, about 90% of the land and economy is still owned by Germans and Afrikaners under a Black government, the indigenous population’s socio-economic situation very similar to South African Black people. I do not agree with Black/ African Americans (on this blog) who insist on Blacks being racist, when one understands the oppressed position too many Africans still find themselves in.
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*Penny Sparrow is a white South African who tweeted that South African Black people are monkeys. (while living on stolen African land).
(http://mg.co.za/article/2016-01-07-penny-sparrow-racisms-sacrificial-lamb)
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@ villagewriter
Could you tell me/us what it is like in Kenya, with the whites as a small minority? I have met Somalians, Congolese, Malawians, Angolans, Zimbabweans, Egyptians, etc., but not one real life Kenyan!
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“Speaking of whites in SA, I was intrigued to learn that Bishop D Tutu had told some whites that they are very lucky to be alive!”
Although I am one those people who does not admire Archbishop Tutu
anymore and as a person who does not believe in violence, I totally agree with him. The unbelievable humiliation and degradation that South Africans have endured is beyond comprehension taking into consideration that the mood from Africans after apartheid has been forgiveness. The recent killings and robberies(22 years) committed by landless Black people on whites are fuelled by desperation and the impossible disparity of wealth. Most whites really do not understand how lucky they are to be alive. The incredible restraint that South Africans have shown towards whites is something I do not understand myself.
( And yet there are Afrikaners who have been trying to paint a picture that ‘genocide’ is being committed against them by grossly exaggerating crime statistics.) I think people like Donald Trump and the adherents of Stormfront take these claims seriously.
Prophetically, Steve Biko wrote about this in ‘I write what Like’: “In time, we shall be in a position to bestow on South Africa the greatest possible gift – a more human face.”
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@ Kiwi @ Afrofem
Thanks for the links on Nixon’s war on drugs. I will probably do a post on Nixon or the War on Drugs or both in the near future.
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^^^ @ Fan…
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“The Big Debate” on Racism :
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpLFdtSNwpU)
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@Taotesan
I think people in South Africa are waking up from their rainbow slumber. White South Africans have connections from around the world. They have connections with the CATO institute (saw one giving a lecture) and even get funding from white extremist groups in Europe and America. They want to push Zuma out and put another puppet in that would help them maintain the status quo. The first time I watched a speech by Maimane from DA, I almost collapsed with laughter. He is clearly a puppet. There is no passion in his voice and he does not have any clear vision for South Africa. Given that he is married to a white woman is more proof that nothing will get done.
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@Taotesan
The white population in Kenya mostly consists of descendants of the British. In 1965 there were around 65,000 of them and then 30,000 left. Now, there are 20,000 white Kenyans and only 5000 are actually descendants of the colonialists. http://www.martinparr.com/2010/the-whites-of-kenya/. A number of them are very wealthy and own large tracts of land. They have most politicians in their pockets and are as racist as any whites in the USA. But they keep their heads down and do not make their presence felt that much. They were the closest friends to our second president who was a dictator. All they care about is self preservation. Their children go to mostly white private schools and study the GSCE curriculum. They have their own social spaces like car racing events, polo, golf. The only descendant of white colonialists that has not kept his head down is Richard Erskine Frere Leakey a paleoanthropologist. He is the son of the famous archaeologists Louis Leakey.
Leakey took all his children to public school, so that they could integrate and become real Kenyans. They speak Swahili really well. His daughter and son have a project that helps traditional bead makers have access to international markets. Just the other day Leakey was made the head of the Kenya Wildlife Service.
The other whites are still mostly living privileged lives like before and are more British than Kenyan. They do not have as much influence as the ones you have over there and in Kenya we do not tolerate racists-we have no patience with them. But the land their ancestors stole is still mostly in their hands and our current president does not acknowledge that.
We also have Italians in our coast. They also live like Italians and have not bothered to integrate. Now that our economy seems to be picking up, some of the children of the whites that left Kenya in the 60s are coming back claiming that they are also Kenyans. Its despicable.
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@Taotesan
The land issue in South Africa could easily explode into a civil war. People like Andile are a blessing for black South Africans. I hope more will listen to him and open their eyes and see that the Rainbow Nation was an illusion. Mandela found himself in the position Kenyatta was in during the 60s. Kenyatta was under pressure to give back land to his people but he could not snatch the land from the whites because the British still had a lot of influence then. They bought back the land of those who left but the ones that remained kept their hundreds of hectares of land. There are rumors that a certain white family (the Delameres) own huge tracts of land that could take you a whole day to explore on horseback.
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@Anne: Cackling about who Becky is Beyonce is smart and she knows how to sell those albums. Not drinking any of this Lemonade.
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@taotesan
Isn’t it funny how Europeans and their descendants are allowed to maintain their ancestral culture in a foreign land without criticism but people of African descent in European nations are told that they should integrate and forget their old culture? I wonder how they would take it if a nationalist movement developed in the African nations similar to the ones they have in Europe where people push to ban immigration from certain counties. Would the children of the colonialists who left be okay with being told that they can’t live there?
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@Mary Burrell,
Me too. I think the collective mind of white America exploded last week when they learned that their is a somewhat derogatory term for a white girl that they didn’t know about.
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@ villagewriter
villagewriter, I would like to ask you 2 questions relative to your last comments:
1. How would rate the influence of (local) Whites in today’s Kenya:
– high (they own everything; they dictate the politics even if indirectly, etc)
– moderate (they have some influence, but it’s not a big deal both in the economy and politics)
– low (their influence in the economy or politics is negligible)
2. I’m living in a country in East Africa (Mozambique) and I know that most of the countries of this part of Africa share one thing: a South Asian minority (mainly Indians and Pakistanis) which oft have a considerable influence in the economy (they dominate the retail trade in those countries). Is this true also for Kenya?
Regarding the first question I wonder if it makes sense to focus so much on Whites if they have not so much influence in the social fabric of our societies after so many years of Independence (I mean local Whites, not foreign multinationals). I doubt that we can really compare situations like in Kenya or Mozambique and the situation in South Africa where the economy is both huge and overwhelmingly in White hands.
There are also differences in countries like Kenya and Mozambique. In Mozambique after Independence the country adopted a openly socialist manifesto: the land, the main factories and companies in areas like trade, commerce, education, agriculture, mines etc were nationalized (became state’s property). A country which went through a somewhat similar, but less radical, process was our northern neighbor, the Republic of Tanzania. As far as I know Kenya never went through a process like that. In the contrary it was a poster child of the capitalist system in East Africa during the Cold War.
Mozambique has changed in the early 90’s its constitution to allow free enterprise and multiparty system in economy and politics respectively. But there are a few things that remain from the old constitution: the land remains a state’s property; you can’t buy or sell a piece of land in Mozambique; the most you can do is to receive a paper that gives you the right to use a specific piece of land for whatever purpose, for a specific period of time. I think that this the way that our politicians saw to not allow foreigners to buy extensive portions of land in Mozambique and create the same situation we had when the country was a Portuguese colony where the native population was forced to work for them.
I always saw Kenya as a country where an indigenous capitalist class had its opportunity to emerge after all these years and this class could be seen as the owners of the country (not the Whites, not the Asians). But your words make me pause to think if I was wrong in my assessment.
Regarding the Asians (Indians, Pakistanis), I noticed that you speak very little of them. Why is that? Do you think that Whites are potentially dangerous but Asians not that much? Or do you think Asian influence is not noticeable?
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“1. How would rate the influence of (local) Whites in today’s Kenya:
– high (they own everything; they dictate the politics even if indirectly, etc)
– moderate (they have some influence, but it’s not a big deal both in the economy and politics)
– low (their influence in the economy or politics is negligible)”
They keep their heads down and are very secretive. But there are rumors that they are very wealthy and have many politicians in their pockets. Their influence is really high. Read about the Thomas Cholmondeley Delamere who killed a black man for “trespassing”. The man spent only a few months in jail to appease us peasants and was released. Pressure from Europe was too much to keep the alleged murderer in Jail. They are very wealthy and some of the biggest companies in our country. Do not be deceived there is a panwhite movement that has influence all over the world.
“2. I’m living in a country in East Africa (Mozambique) and I know that most of the countries of this part of Africa share one thing: a South Asian minority (mainly Indians and Pakistanis) which oft have a considerable influence in the economy (they dominate the retail trade in those countries). Is this true also for Kenya?”
Asians used to own all the retail shops and had great influence before independence. Now, most retail shop owners are black and they are also building factories. They still have some influence but that influence is getting eroded quickly as more black people get wealthier.
“Regarding the first question I wonder if it makes sense to focus so much on Whites if they have not so much influence in the social fabric of our societies after so many years of Independence (I mean local Whites, not foreign multinationals). I doubt that we can really compare situations like in Kenya or Mozambique and the situation in South Africa where the economy is both huge and overwhelmingly in White hands.”
White people in Africa are connected (generalizing here). Where did the white farmers from Zimbabwe go? Most of them ended up in Kenya and now own farms. We have thousands of landless blacks (thanks to descendants of the white settlers) but these white just come in and get land. Now that is great influence on the part of the white farmers we have here. They do not have overwhelming power like the white South Africans but they still have great influence.
“There are also differences in countries like Kenya and Mozambique. In Mozambique after Independence the country adopted a openly socialist manifesto: the land, the main factories and companies in areas like trade, commerce, education, agriculture, mines etc were nationalized (became state’s property). A country which went through a somewhat similar, but less radical, process was our northern neighbor, the Republic of Tanzania. As far as I know Kenya never went through a process like that. In the contrary it was a poster child of the capitalist system in East Africa during the Cold War.”
Kenya is a capitalist (dog eat dog) country. Our black middle class is big and every year we hear about another young millionaire in the news. We love millionaire but we are not as flashy as Nigerians. The problem is that our middle and high class just adopt the snobbish British character and even accents. They take their children to exclusive private schools and live in gated communities. They are the reason I am not that fond of capitalism.
“Regarding the Asians (Indians, Pakistanis), I noticed that you speak very little of them. Why is that? Do you think that Whites are potentially dangerous but Asians not that much? Or do you think Asian influence is not noticeable?”
Asians owned many businesses just after independence but they have been facing more competition from black business owners in the last 20 years. It is happening so fast that some Indian families have started looking for public sector jobs. Black people are leaving those jobs and starting businesses all over the country. There are many Indians here. You can see them in all the small and big towns. Some immigrate from India while the large majority were brought here by the British. I went to school with Indians. But they are very religious, hardly intermarry and are secretive. The intermarriage part is mostly because of religion and wealth.
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@ munubantu
From the Bill Clinton thread
I do not want to overstate my case, even going so far as not qualifying any statement with the words of ‘I mean not all whites.’
( I think you would know who my friend’ husband is as he was also exiled in Mocambique.)
And you are right, it would be hard to disagree that Ruth First and Joe Slovo were not exemplary South Africans. I have much admiration and appreciation for their work in opposing apartheid. Their exemplary bravery unfortunately not emulated by the white Jewish people of South Africa and white people at large, who remained silent and collaborated with apartheid and derived immense wealth. The hypocrisy is that stalwart anti-apartheid fighter, Ronnie Kasrils was offered up as an example of how Jewish people were supposedly against apartheid, but when Mr Kasrils criticised israel comparing it to apartheid, he was demonised again by the Jewish community supporting Zionism, just like he was ostracised and criticized during apartheid.
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@ villagewriter
Later….
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@munubantu
“…the land remains a state’s property; you can’t buy or sell a piece of land in Mozambique; the most you can do is to receive a paper that gives you the right to use a specific piece of land for whatever purpose, for a specific period of time.”
Have those land policies protected rural Mozambicans from foreign land grabs so common in Africa and Latin America?
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https://www.gofundme.com/mg5qtr44
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Any thoughts on the White House Correspondent dinner last night ? I watched it on CNN.
I think it should be renamed the White House Esablishment Dinner or the White House Coporatacracy Club.
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@michaeljonbarker
They certainly were in self-celebration mode. Wretched imperial excess.
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@michaeljonbarker: Personally for me i like the mic drop but i didn’t like Larry Wilmore using the N-word. It’s been 50/50 but i don’t like my President addressed in that manner. I don’t like that word where anyone uses it. I don’t think Larry Wilmore is funny i don’t care for his brand of comedy he just isn’t funny to me. I will be honest i kind of chuckled when Larry Wilmore referred to Don Lemmon as “An alleged jounalist” and Lemon flipped Wilmore the bird.
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*journalist*^^^^
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@ Kiwi
That is a really curious phenomenon that really complicates the American role in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. As far as I understand it comes from a weird and rather anti-semitic idea that the Jews have to congregate in the Holy Land to bring on the second coming of Christ. How that ever become more than the nonsense some unstable people shout in the streets, is beyond me. But if I were a Jew, such allies would freak me out.
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@ Kiwi
I didn’t know that. I always thought that early Zionism had rather little to do with religion.
While that might be true too, it is not what I meant. As far as I understand it the evangelicals believe that the Jews have to congregate in the Holy Land and then be all converted or destroyed there. That is why I consider it anti-semitic.
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@ Kiwi
With your view of the roots of Zionism I largely agree, I just didn’t know that it also had osme roots in Protestantism.
As I haven’t mention Islamism in my posts I assume you mean how I used it on other posts in different thread. I agree that it is in its extrernal definition a form of nationalism. It just replaced the identity marker of Panarabism (language) with religion. In that it copies Zionism/Jewish nationalism. But it has a very different aspect than all other nationalism. It also demands a particular order of that Muslim nation, not just their unification.
Not just Islamists and Israel supporters or other nationalists, every identity group does that. People who deny the cromes of their religious group (many catholics) ot political affiliation (communists). I think it is an instinct that can only be overcome by thorough moral reflection.
I disagree on your general outlook on nations. I think a nation state is other forms of states inheritly superior in strength.
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So someone on Metafilter tried to make a post on White Fragility and “white women’s tears”, but one of the moderators axed the post because they weren’t comfortable with how they thought it was going to play out. Kinda ironic, don’t you think?
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Happy Mother’s Day to all the moms out there🌹🌹🌹🌺🌷
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@Abagond
Have you noticed the hypocrisy surrounding the refugee crisis in Europe. In my country we have been hosting the largest refugee camp in the world and most of those refugees have become Kenyan citizens. Meanwhile the countries in Europe that sponsor conflicts in the middle east scream and whine when they have to face consequences for their actions http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kenya-plans-to-shut-down-worlds-largest-refugee-camp_us_5730b0e8e4b096e9f091fcbb
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@ villagewriter
As far as I know the Kenyans are not exactly happy with the refugees.
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@Kartffortel
The point I am trying to make here is that we have been hosting thousands of refugees for decades despite our economy but the very countries that fund conflict start complaining when a few thousand show up at their doors. By the way, there is no animosity against refugees among the general population in Kenya. The reason the government wants to close the camp is because we cannot afford it anymore and it also has to do with security. So far, there is no scary Nazi match along our streets calling for the expulsion of refugees.
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Anybody here has read the comic “Old Pa Anderson”? For instance on ReadComics net? NOT for young kids, summary, in the 50’s Mississippi an old black man has nothing left to lose and stands up against the white supremacists…
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@ villagewriter
I noticed. I was dumbfounded when Democracy Now called it the worst refugee crisis since the Second World War.
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@ Kiwi
I elaborte. Of all the various German nationalists there were gropus with not just different, but with diamtrically opposed internal ideas: Liberals, conservatives, fascists, socialists, some secular, some religious. They have nothing in common other than their nationalism. That is not the case with Islamism. While there are a lot of differences between all the various groups, they have more in common than the goal to unify all Muslims in one state.
On the issue of Arab-Muslim relations.
That is a question as old as Islam itself. The Arabs always had a sepcial role within the Muslim community, due to the religious prestige of the Arab language and the holy sites. Interestingly Arabs were ruled by non-Arabs the majority of history (at least Mesopotamia and the Levante).
European Expansion was such a powerful force that pretty much everything was effected by it. The interesting question is, in what way? I operate under the assumption that conflicts between identity groups are part of the conditio humana, so I would be very surprised if they didn’t exist. But it could be that these identities were much more fluid and overlapping like in the European Middle Ages.
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@Kiwi
Inter-ethnic animosity here is more an election thing used by politicians to rally supporters. We do not have a situation where someone refuses to sell you stuff or help you when you are in distress because you belong to another ethnic group. We do not have one ethnic group having a KKK equivalent group against another ethnic group. The other thing that causes tension is land but I won’t go into that because I do not want to write a long post. Somalis are not hated or discriminated against by the general population. The police target them mostly because a number of Somalis from Somalia have been joining Alshabab and ISIS and carrying out terrorism acts in Kenya.
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@ villagewriter
Wasn’t it during a presidential election that people had to hide in prisons because murderous mobs of another ethnic group hunted them? Less of a KKK situation than mutual pogroms like in Yugoslavia.
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@Karfortel
That is why I was talking about land. You can trace those extreme examples of violence to the land question in our country. Land issues were not solved completely in this country during independence. If you read about the post election crisis here, then you would know that the opposition called for demonstrations not violence. But in the Rift Valley region there has been a lot of passion brewing about the land issue in our country (there was violence there in 1992 too). When the British came they stole a lot of land. When most of the settlers left, the first president of our country failed to give the right land back to the right people. He took land from one community without any consultation and gave it to another. Those two communities have animosity against one another mostly because of land. That is why I commented here once that the land issue in South Africa could turn into a civil war. But what has that got to do with the refugee camps or the refugee crisis in Europe or Somalis in our country?
You also need to realize that there are Kenyan Somalis who have been living here since independence and are full citizens. Then there are Somalis from the country Somalia who come over here as refugees. We have refugees from Angola, DRC, Somalia, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Eritrea and some Syrians and Iranians.
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I don’t know anything about the land conflicts, but just from your post I gather that it is not purely economic but has an identity side to it. Or it wouldn’t be seen as a conflict between communities but between the haves and have-nots.
You’re right that that doesn’t strictly have anything to do with the refugee situation. I guess Kiwi brought it up because it seems rather unlikely that a society with ethnic strife has no problems with immigrants/refugees.
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@ Kartfortell
“I don’t know anything about the land conflicts, but just from your post I gather that it is not purely economic but has an identity side to it. Or it wouldn’t be seen as a conflict between communities but between the haves and have-nots.”
There was actually a study done on this by an American University. They came over here after the violence and hypothesized that the violence was due to identity not just economy or politics. The data they collected proved their perception wrong. They found that Kenyans in general like each other. I will search for it and give you a link. Most of the animosity is due to politics and the land issue not identity. We do not have that culture of excluding people because they look a certain way, or speak a certain language. It just doesn’t exist in Kenya, maybe in some other African country.
“You’re right that that doesn’t strictly have anything to do with the refugee situation. I guess Kiwi brought it up because it seems rather unlikely that a society with ethnic strife has no problems with immigrants/refugees.”
I have already touched on the ethnic strife part. The violence in 1992, 1997, and 2008 are all connected and happened mostly in one small region in a country bigger than the state of Texas. In that region, there are a number of Trump-like demagogues who do not solve the land question but use it to win votes. It almost like a vicious cycle. The refugees in this country have no problem with the locals.
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I’ll take you at your word, but it is literally the first country I hear about where there is no hostility towards refugees.
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@Kartfortell
In countries where we believe in helping others animosity for refugees in largely non-existent. I am in no way saying that Kenya is perfect but you can search any corner of this country and you will not find a single refugee sawing his mouth shut in protest.
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Arthur laffer admits that his interest is for economic growth not social issues. That is how the 1% think; will we have to sharpen the guillotines again..
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNeGadtnUJo)
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@ Kiwi
Drugs should be a public health issue, not a law enforcement issue. Like with Prohibition, criminalization only makes matters worse. The War on Drugs have hurt Blacks far more than the drugs themselves.
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All my White friends are on drugs. Come to think of it, all my Black friends are on drugs as well. Maybe I should get some new friends.
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@ Kiwi
All groups that are commonly referred to as Islamist have in common that religion should play a bigger part in public life than it does now. For example that laws should be in accordance with Islamic law.
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@Kiwi
Isn’t it funny that Newsweek is creating the impression that Kenyans hate Somalis yet there is no violence against them from the general public or a march against Somalis in the streets? I went to school with Somalis, I have friends who are Somalis, Somalis are everywhere in this country but I have never met one that felt discriminated against by Kenyans. Search online and see whether you can find a civil rights group started by Somalis in Kenya against discrimination. Somalis are in every sector of our economy. Our foreign affairs minister is Somali, our Industry Minister is Somali, our former police commissioner is Somali (also served as a general), the Election commission boss is Somali, some of our senior judges and lawyers are Somali. Somalis are not the only victims of extrajudicial killings in Kenya. The wagalla massacre happened under a dictatorship. There is simply no evidence that the general public in Kenya hate Somalis. For heavens sake, Kenyan Somalis have mixed into the population so much that sometimes you only know that someone is Somali only when they speak their language. Time magazine, Newsweek, The Economist are very sensationalist when they report of Africa and the middle East. The police here are corrupt and that affects most Kenyans not just Somalis. But Newsweek has to sell magazines somehow. We have news aggregates online that are more accurate than anything you will find in those magazines.
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Arrests for White teens drop, arrests for Blacks and Hispanic teens rise in Colorado.
Apparently the decriminalization of pot doesn’t affect racism.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/amandachicagolewis/marijuana-arrests-down-in-colorado-for-white-teens-up-for-bl?utm_term=.rp9JXyyLN#.bd7qw11Ga
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@ Anne
( better late than never)
It is not enough for the settler/invader (and no, Europeans in Africa are not Africans as much as Europeans in Asia are not Asians) to plunder outright, they have to set themselves as the centre of history, nay, the universe. It is incomprehensible the level of ethnic chauvinistic narcissism that whites/ Europeans have exalted themselves above others, whilst having eradicated cultures, changed the peoples habits, i.e from autonomy to dependence, to suit their imperialistic and colonialist urges of domination.
This reminds me of two examples of the South African whites who, for the first time after centuries, has to confront living amongst Black people. To be sure, even here we understand what ‘good schools’ and ‘good neighbourhoods’ mean. ( It does not take them very long to move, or relentlessly harass you because ‘the value of the neighbourhood goes down when a Black family moves in).
Here is a cultural practice of slaughtering a goat for traditional reasons. And sometimes takes place in the celebrants’ own yard. (One’s cultural relativism is irrelevant). Among some African middle class living in ‘white’* neighbourhoods, this practice has caused apoplectic outrage from the meat-guzzling liberals, who scream blue murder about rhinos and lions ( they are the primary ones for the rhino’s near extinction and barbaric canned hunting and who treat their own dogs and cats better than African people.) And another ‘fallout’ occurred a few years ago, when white lawyers had taken Black lawyers -Black Lawyers Forum to the highest court of the land (and won) for self-segregating. In South Africa now, again, it is illegal and ‘racist ’for Africans to create protective spaces from white interference.
Not a Robert Mugabe apologist, but he had the temerity to kick out the whites. Look at how he is demonized. Massive sanctions are now applied to Zimbabwe from israel supporting imperialist and neo-colonialist countries.
One’s heart breaks at the plight of Syrian and African refugees in Europe and israel. And the sadistic oppression of Palestinians made prisoners and second class citizens in their own land. And the first charge of anti-Semitism if one so much as mentions ‘Jews’ or ‘israel’. Yet it is those countries bombing, occupying, and stealing who would tear one to shreds for fighting for human rights against these rapacious bullies.
*Prime African real estate stolen by whites through the Native Land Act in 1913 and Group Areas Act from 1950.
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@ Kiwi
I’m not sure if I understand you correctly. You say that the whole idea of a society ordered by Islamic principles is just propaganda?
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Were you on vacation?
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@Kiwi
What exactly does that video prove really. I mean I respect Press TV (an Iranian affiliated station) but that report was quite stupid I have to say. Iran did not support Kenyan troops intervening in Somalia despite the fact we have to deal with Alshabab and host the biggest refugee camp in the world that could be a recruiting spot for terrorists. Kenya’s intervention was due to pressure from the USA and your country funds that intervention.
The reporter clearly says that successive governments have faced persecution by “successive governments” not by the general public. Successive governments including the the one led by Moi who ruled for 24 years.Who do you think are the main patrons in the businesses in little Mogadishu? We go there all the time to shop; why would we do that if we hated and feared Somalis. If there was such a thing, then the murder of more than 150 students in a local University in Kenya by mainly Somali militants would have been the last straw. But what happened instead? A few stupid comments on social media but no xenophobic attacks. The reporter keeps on saying that due to the social media comments there were “fears” that xenophobic attacks would happen but they never happened. You think the police could stop a mob of angry Kenyans who hate Somalis.
Two or three people who stare at you and comment on a vehicle does not prove that the whole country wants to kill you. I live in Kenya and I interact with Somalis and Muslims daily.Give me solid proof like a real xenophobic attack on Somalis.
As for the second video all I have to say is that in every market there is a mad man. He is clearly an idiot ranting online with his fake American accent.The other day I saw an white American male ranting about wanting to rape women does that mean that all women in America are raped every day. I am surprised you ignored the comments from Somalis. There is no discrimination against Somalis in this country and Somalis are not the only Muslims in this country. In fact, a majority of Muslims in Kenya are not Somali. You still haven’t given me evidence of any xenophobic attacks against Somalis or even Muslims. Somalis have representatives in parliament and the senate; why is it that none of them was interviewed by Press TV.
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@Kiwi
I meant to say that the report says that Somalis faced persecution from “successive governments” not the general public. You can say the same thing for people living in the Western part of Kenya and the people living at the coast.
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@Kiwi
I wrote a long comment but it is still in moderation. I clearly said that I have never met a Somali person who said they faced discrimination from Kenyans. I am one person; remember but my experience counts too. You have looked around and dug deep online and come up with two videos that are quite easy to disprove.
1. Why would a general public that hates Somalis go a shop in great numbers in places like little Mogadishu. I mean the KKK in America do not even shake hands with black people most of the time. FYI we have a Somali MP in my region voted in by people who are mostly not Somali. I mean we must have hated him so much that we voted him to office.
2. The girl says that “some” of the passengers stared at her and made comments. She did not say that “Kenyan stared at her and told her to go back to Somalia.” A bunch of short people told me that I was just too tall and called me “giraffe” So, it seems all short people hate me. (Boo hoo hoo).
3.The second video you chose is probably from a feature film because of the style used to shoot it. It could have been a movie. It a perfect film for Alshabab who have been trying to make Kenyan Somalis join their ranks. Judging from the comments it seems to be working.
4. I live in Kenya, I interact with Somalis but if you feel that I am somehow less capable of studying my own environment and knowing what is going on, you are free to get a VISA and come over and do your own research.
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I would be glad if Iran decided to open its boarders and let in refugees from Somalia. But Saudi Arabia, UAE and other most Muslim nations do not want them. These countries are richer than we are and are more capable of handling these issues but hardly anyone is condemning them for their stance. So, when our police armed with their corruption and limited resources try to push out Alshabab elements (that use refugee camps to recruit and to get into our country illegally) and in the process end up persecuting every single Somali they find, the general public is accused of being anti-Somali. Kenya has stuck with Somalia through thick and thin but we are now the villains according to American and Iranian media. The same American media that called this country a failed state.
Rohingya Muslims were also rejected by other largely Muslim nations. Kenya has refugees from all over Africa, despite the fact that we are only lower middle income nation. Can Europe and USA take in the refugees because they are known to fund wars all over the world. Maybe then I can go to Europe and ask Somalis how the Europeans and Americans who helped destroy their country treat them.
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@Kiwi
You seem to know more about Kenya than I do. How long did you spend here. You must have been here for years. You are not alone we have a couple of people who come over here and stay for awhile and then become greater experts about our country than Kenyans themselves. I will repeat there is no widespread discrimination or “racism” against Somalis. I wonder what race you think the Somali belong to because if it is the different looks that they have that makes them a different race, most people from different ethnic groups in Africa do not look alike. Seems like before you asked your question about Somalis you had already made your conclusions about them being oppressed by other Kenyans.
“The general public shops in American Chinatowns in great numbers but I don’t point to that as a reason that Chinese Americans are not discriminated against.”
You said Kenyans hated Somalis and I gave you an example that disproves your assessment. You cannot buy stuff from someone you clearly hate.
“Zaynab didn’t say “some” of the passengers stared. She said “everybody” stared and “some” of them made comments about Somalis having to “go back to their land”. That is xenophobic.
I doubt it’s all Kenyans, either, but what are the chances that “everybody” in the matatu stared at her in a country where the general public supposedly has no prejudices against Somalis?”
Yeah, people stare at me every time when I board a vehicle and I do not conclude that they dislike me. Chances are that she was not the only Somali in that vehicle. And yes the passengers that told her to go back to Somalia were xenophobic.Like I said before, in every market there is always a mad man. You seem to have made your decision that Kenyans discriminate against Somalis minus any xenophobic attacks. Some Kenyans make comments about other ethnic groups too but has Aljazeera come and said that they are xenophobic against those ethnic groups. Where are the anti-somali groups formed in this country, where are the anti-discrimination groups by Somalis (or you think they are incapable of forming them because they are just too oppressed), where are the matches by the Kenyan public asking for the expulsion of Somalis (since you have it in your mind that we do not want them here); there are none. You keep on giving me these small incidences that happen but guess what the pressure from the refugees from the North is really massive and I am not surprised some people would have those views. But those are just some people. I would expect Facebook groups against Somalis, widespread xenophobic attacks against them, members of parliament wanting to score votes by asking for their expulsion but they do not exist.
“An oppressed minority shares her experience with discrimination and that’s your response?”
You need to stop patronizing me Kiwi. An incident happens in a taxi and then the whole country is responsible? A country with more that 40 ethnic groups. I mean you are out of your mind if you think your experience in this country trumps mine. Every ethnic group in this country has had comments thrown at them at one time but they do not start screaming that Kenyans are “racist” or xenophobic against them. Somalis also throw comments at people from other ethnic groups; did you look at the comment section of the video that was supposed to prove something. I guess Somalis are “racist” and xenophobic towards other Africans.
“Been there, done that. I was left with no doubt that Kenyans are racist and prejudiced. I also know someone who lives in Kenya who tells me about the disdain that Kenyans have for Somalis and she told me a story about a Kenyan coworker that left no doubt in my mind that this disdain is not isolated to security forces.”
Yes you came over heard some whispers and you are now an expert. Great. I also have Somali friends for your information and they have never gone through those experiences.You seem to think that only Somalis are targeted by our corrupt police. Look at the opinion polls about Kenyan attitudes towards the police.
“Ok, so you think Zaynab is lying. And dig deep? It took me only 5-10 minutes to find those two videos.”
I don’t think she is lying but every other ethnic group has similar stories especially around elections. You took 5-10 minutes to find videos that hardly prove that there is widespread discrimination against Somalis but how long do you think it will take you to find an anti-Somali group in Kenya. Keep digging, I wish you luck.
“Is Patrick Gathara also lying when he describes entire loads of passengers getting off when they see a Somali board a matatu? For a country where the general public supposedly does not discriminate against Somalis, this would be a highly improbable scenario unless said prejudices are real and widespread.”
That must have been after the terrorist attacks in Eastleigh or the University attack. There were several attacks on buses, markets, shopping malls all happening one after the other and there was a lot of fear in the country. Muslim leaders (including Somalis) and pastors came out to calm people down. Even after those frequent spate of attacks there was no xenophobic attacks against the Somalis. You are right that there could be some conflict but judging from my experience and the experiences of my Somali friends there is no widespread discrimination against Somalis. Gathara also clearly states that the “authorities” have been known to persecute the Somalis not Kenyans in general. But the same can be said about the Mijikenda and the Muslims at the coast and the Luo in the West. The authorities have not been kind to most Kenyans in fact our second president had a torture chamber for dissenters in a basement somewhere in the middle of the city.
We have many Somalis in my ancestral land and there has been nothing but peace between our two communities. In fact, the Somalis already know my ethnic language and some even speak it better than I do.
You still seem to have ignored the comments on the Youtube video with the idiot ranting. I
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Here is an example of hateful. “racist” Kenyans voting in a Somali MP after he survives a terrorist attack by alleged Somali terrorists. It also has a number of hateful comments against him in comment section.The hate is real here:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlRl3V368j0)
We hate them so much that we make them police commissioners. Just read the comments.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgP7oIXw8Lo)
I have more examples.
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@KIwi
What exactly have you proven? That Kenyans sometimes say awful things about each other? of course they do, and not just against Somalis. Give me a break.I have clearly stated that in every market there is a mad man and even pointed you to bigoted comments made by Somalis about their fellow Kenyans. But you have chosen to ignore it because your conclusions already fossilized in your head that Kenyans hate Somalis.
How did we know that there is xenophobia in South Africa? When there were actually xenophobic attacks against refugees. But even in South Africa these incidences happened in only one place in the country.
You seem to have this impression that I consider white people as evil beasts. I actually think they are human beings just like any other. Prejudice is not a white thing but the ideology of racism is mainly white. In the competition for power certain groups seek to exclude other groups to maintain influence and control of resources. But at no time in history was exclusion based on pseudo-scientific ideas of race ever more prominently than in the 18th and 19th century.
Had Kenya had a true ethnic homogeneous majority that looked down on Somalis as you emphasize with hardly any proof then I would have been tempted to agree with you. Unlike the US, where white people are the clear majority, the same is not true in Kenya. There is no ethnic group that has extensive control over all the resources in Kenya and no real minority that is a victim to those atrocities. We are 40 ethnic groups that all have baggage against the government.
You are right there is willful blindness over racism against blacks in the US. But unlike Somalis in Kenya, there is real proof for this. African Americans have countless examples of cases of discrimination by the majority white population. You can see clear evidence from the formation of the KKK, to countless Social Media Groups calling for the mass murder of black people, to politicians that openly say they dislike black people. And justifiable, African Americans have created groups to fight for their rights. Do you think Somalis are incapable of doing the same or is your wide expert experience in this country enough to prove it? You will not find such extent of bigotry against Somalis in Kenya.
Stop taking a complicated multi-ethnic country like Kenya that has its own history and struggles and put it side by side with the US. I will maintain my position, not because I am willfully blind but because I actually have lived in this country for years and know what is going on.
I am not going to argue with you anymore about this because it seems you made your decision over this from the beginning..
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I am now officially a Libertarian Socialist. Do not confuse it with Libertarians in the US.
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It is interesting again to note how some Americans know more about our lived experiences and history than we do and project their narrative, undisclosed agendas, correcting us with lazy accusations of racism and start lecturing us on self-inspection and installing themselves as drive-by experts.
Ready-made memes of the US racial paradigm of a nuanced and thought-provoking analyses on complex multi-ethnic country are arrogantly dismissed. What I am noticing is not the arguments in themselves per se, but the disdainful and arrogant paternalistic interfering American tone as if they are au fait with inter-ethnic realties and lived experience of said countries. I can read and try to understand the American experience without correcting Americans of their own experiences, and not create unnecessary antagonisms. Unless the thread or blog is exclusively about American Asians, then will I excuse myself.
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I have given a brief sketch of South African history during apartheid, simplistically outlining the stratification of Asians, showing in the extreme world of racial hierarchy where SA Japanese citizens , etc. were granted honorary white status* by Verwoerd. It is a historical fact, not a ‘racist’ opinion.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_whites)
To disprove history now by twisted logic, it is projected on me that I think that the very small population of Japanese South Africans in the apartheid regime from 1950 henceforth are supposedly ‘white’ in Japan in 1941, before apartheid became came into being in 1948.
* that meant a life of ease and luxury, in an oppressive police state, a galaxy apart from the oppressed masses.
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A bit of bio of from a person who supposedly hold biased views against Asians-
Indulgent fluff- dismiss or gloss over if you see fit
As a multi-ethnic Black African with Asian (slave) ancestry, when I was growing up, I lived next door to Muslims of Indonesian origin in terms of the Group Areas Act. I fasted with one of my best friends in primary school. My class-mates were Muslim, My mother used to send me to buy 10c bacon off-cuts from the Chinese butcher. We have been invited to Eid celebrations and weddings by Muslim neighbours. Every now and then we would go to the Lyric bioscope owned Indians. The Catholic Church that I was forced to attend to as a child was right next to the Mosque. The haberdasher was Muslim who used to give me bits of lace for free. I was friends with Indian Muslims, Tamils, Hindus and Christians, when living in Gauteng and QuaZuluNatal.
I was there with other Coloureds, Blacks, Indians who fought side by side against apartheid.
In Cape Town, my therapist of many years is Hindu, whom I have shared my pained solidarity with Palestinians,my dentist – Indian Muslim, one of my doctors, Xhosa and the other, Cape Malay. My nephew and his father is Muslim. For two years, I was awakened by the Muezzin in the Bo-Kaap in Cape Town and shared bobotie, breyani and boeber with neighbours. Although my personal instructor is Ugandan, one of my power-lifting training partners is an Indian Catholic and the young guys that help me on my last reps of bench-press and squats are Cape Malay and one is an immigrant from Pakistan.
It was two years ago with Muslim friends, that I took part in an anti-israel demonstration and for BDS when Pharrell Williams was in the country. Basically, most of my daughters friends are Cape Malay Muslim,Angolan and Xhosa and her god mother is Xhosa. I had no problem patronizing South African Chinese restaurants in Cyrildene, and never felt disrespected, but refuse to patronise stores by recent immigrants who treat their Black staff dreadfully and follow Black customers around making them out to be thieves. Some of the ugliest expressions of racism I was subjected to were by Lebanese Christians and Japanese in Gauteng ( who were classified as white).
I have tried to unravel my mixed ancestry- by researching slavery in the Cape. I have travelled to many Asian countries- ncluding in the South East Asian region. ( I had not made it to Indonesia, though, where I think some of my ancestors are from.) Yet, I am accused of racially stereotyping Asians when my lived experience is of friends and family and connections of Asian descent and with other ethnic groups and my acculturation is with African and Asian people, not white Americans. For heavens to Betsy.
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I do not have a lived American experience, neither do I have an ounce of American or South African patriotic/religious/ideological fervour in which to condone the murder / slaughter/ occupation of West Asians and serious atrocities of which (imperial)America is culpable of in Asia.
Japanese, Taiwanese and South Koreans were allowed to buy prime African land when indigenous Africans, including the San, themselves were landlesss, many pressed tight into gulags, have their own businesses , negotiating with whites, not Blacks for that purchase. They were not subjected to Bantu education, made to live in uninhabitable spaces without water, electricity and proper sanitation, humiliated with passes, working dangerous or soul-destroying menial jobs for a pittance. They were ensconced in ‘First World’ privilege in every way except to vote or to be conscripted and of course, must have been subjected by that special Afrikaner meanness. But here in South Africa, during apartheid they were part of the dominant group, just like the Jews. Stating thesefacts does not make one anti- semitic, nor an Asian stereotyping bigot.
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They were not racial bulwarks like Indians, Malays, Chinese and Coloureds mix of African, Asian, European). Japan did not renew diplomatic ties with the new Black democratic government. It was countries like Taiwan, Paraguay, Israel and Japan that had diplomatic and economic ties at the height of apartheid.
The stereotypes and racial psychological warfare of whites are not agreed upon or internalized by all of the ‘lower rung’ recipients of their oppressive brutality, of their characterization of those of the ‘higher rungs’ to reinforce a specious and fallacious hierarchical narrative to divide and conquer. In other words, even if Japanese South African citizens enjoyed the fruits of a racist society,( as a person inculcated to believe that I am inferior) and because I have my own frame of reference and by refusing to look through white distorted lenses, I can see people who are not white in South Africa as neither superior or inferior or have antagonism toward them as I was propagandized to do.
One does not have to look at people different to you through yesterday’s eyes.
We are not blind or deaf to recognize when certain groups assume a superior attitude towards Africans, there is nothing wrong in critiquing it.
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@ Afrofem and Solitaire
Trust the two of you to pick my brain. : ) It is a woolly mass of nebulae and can’t think straight at the moment.
I will try to post a thought out reply tomorrow from the Shakespeare thread.
Loosely put, transforming society by self-revolution, rejecting all authority thereby forcing independent thought, freeing the mind from tradition leaving fresh insight from moment to moment.
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@taotesean: I enjoy reading your post they are insightful and enlightening. Please keep posting.
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@Kiwi,
I liked you more when you used to complain about your relationship issues. I guess this is how you make friends????
@taotesan
You know as well as I do that the intent of the argument has always been to distract from a certain situation that may have exposed existing prejudices of a certain group in the US. But that’s how the game is played. Nothing has to change if you can prove that everyone does it. 😉
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@taotesan
I agree with Mary Burrell. Those are a fascinating series of comments.
I especially loved this passage:
I was forced to laugh repeatedly because most of my countrymen/women are profoundly ignorant about the lives and conditions of people in other countries.
The majority of Americans don’t hold passports or even bother to read overseas newspapers (nearly every country in Africa, Asia and Europe have English language papers and websites).
We can be an insular, self interested bunch awash in a sea of nationalist propaganda and sloganeering. At the same time, our beloved country is falling apart before our eyes. It’s pretty disorienting.
Please keep sharing insights into your life in South Africa, taotesan.
I think it will be a rough ride in the US and SA over the next decade. We have much to learn from one another.
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@villagewriter
I really enjoy reading your descriptions of life in Kenya.
From the little I know of Kenya right now, it seems to be in a growth surge right now. Optimism about the future and growing pains seem to go together.
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@Afrofem
I am glad you enjoy them. The country is growing fast. I mean every 2 years there is something new happening. Kenyans in general are always optimistic.
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@Kiwi
“No, I’ve proven that Kenyans can be racially prejudiced, just like anyone else. I experienced it extensively in Kenya from – yes, you guessed it – the general public. Ordinary, everyday Kenyans I met asked me where I was from and whenever I explained that I was American, they rejected my answer and insisted that I was from either China, Korea, or Japan, places I had never stepped foot in. I noticed that the White Americans I traveled with were not treated with this kind of disrespect and were acknowledged as Americans. I realized later on that in Kenyans’ minds, people of the White race are seen as “America/Europe”, while those of the Asian race are seen as “East Asia”. I also learned quickly which group was seen as higher status. I will let you guess which one.”
Racially prejudiced? What have you been smoking recently. What race exactly do you think the Somali belong to? Can you stop chest thumping and listen for a change. Here you are putting up so many goal posts can you decide which one you want me to tackle first.
“I know someone who works in Kenya and as part of her job, she travels to Somalia at times. On one trip, her Kenyan coworker watched with her as Somalis from rival clans boarded public transport and broke out into a fight. Her coworker saw, laughed, and made disdainful comments about Somalis, comparing them to animals. Make of it what you will. Let’s just hope his views are isolated. All I know is that he wasn’t part of Kenya’s security forces.”
I really laughed at this one because it proves just how ignorant you are about my country. Have you ever watched Kenyan comedy. Most of the comics come from different ethnic groups including the Somali and make fun of each other using stereotypes from those communities. Have you sat down with Somalis and heard them making fun of the Habesha and other clans within the Somali community ? But because you insist on looking at my country with a cloudy American lens you will never really know what actually happens on the ground. We are more than 40 ethnic groups that all have perceptions about other ethnic groups but those perceptions do not translate into systematic exclusion or widespread victimization.
“Right, the Kikuyu have no disproportionate over Kenya’s political structure and the Somalis aren’t disproportionately terrorized or discriminated against by Kenya’s security forces. I almost forgot.”
Now here is where your ignorance bears its head more prominently. The Kikuyu are only 22% of the population in Kenya. They themselves do not see each other as one group but several groups. They have three dialects for the same language and make fun of each other based on the regions each group comes from. Try simplifying that with your American lens. Another majority is the Luhya but they are actually sub-tribes that speak with different dialects. These Luhya groups also have stereotypes for each other and they dislike the Wanga sub-tribe because the British used the Wanga to rule their region indirectly. Currently, it seems like the Kikuyu have political control but in reality they do not (they are not really one major group). That is why the president travels to various regions trying to appease people from different ethnic groups and sub-tribes to support him. His vice president comes from a community that has land disputes with that of the president.The Kikuyu only have absolute control of their ancestral lands. Now add the Somali into that mix with their various clans and you have complications. Also add in the descendants of the white settlers, the Indians, the Arabs, the Congolese, the Syrians, the Ethiopians, Eritreans, Sudanese, Nubians and the recent Chinese. You do not know this country Kiwi and I would appreciate if you stopped pretending you do.
“I called out villagewriter on his moral blindness because I recognize an injustice when I see one, including the widespread, prejudicial views that underly that and his denial of it and your support for that along with others is absolutely disgusting.”
My moral blindness! Really? Are you willing to sink that low? You have no business telling me what I should think about my country. You are in denial of the fact that you are completely ignorant about this country. Unlike you receiving information about Kenya from your Somali friend I actually live here. You ignored the comments the Somali make on YouTube videos you gave me as evidence because in your mind they are the minority and the Kenyans are one homogeneous block that just hates Somalis. The intricacies and nuances that make this nation Kenya are just too complicated for you to tidily put them in black and white boxes.You are like a visitor that has gone to a house and found the kids and the parents arguing and one kids runs to you and says the others hate him. Now try slapping the parents or one of the other kids and the whole family will turn on you.
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Somalis are not the only ones that are targeted by the police. The people in the Coast who belong to a number of ethnic groups are also targeted. Many Mosques have been raided by the police in Mombasa and many people lost their homes. Somalis have been making headlines more recently because of Kenya’s intervention (its actually American intervention) in Somalia, which has brought relative peace to the country (tell that to some Somali clans and you might lose your head). But it has increased Alshabab retaliations in Kenya. The Somalis mostly targeted by the police are the ones that live in Eastleigh (just one part of the city). Eastleigh has a high concentration of Kenyan Somalis but it also has some Somalis who escaped refugee camps in the North.
But most Somalis live with other Kenyans in the suburbs, in the rich estates and in the rural areas and in the slums.
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@kiwi,
You’re deliberately fighting a battle you don’t want to win. I really admire your stamina. I’ve never been good at playing mind games. Good luck.
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@Anne and everyone
I have held my tongue on Kiwi’s behavior, but this is ridiculous. Black commenters can not even speak there experience without being attacked for it and then having what they say twisted. Jefe is doing the same darn thing, but worse because he then has the nerve to act as if he is not. And I really hate the gro jo is proving to be right about the both of them.
On that note I am going to just disappear from this blog by weeks end. Hopefully by the time I return in a few months there will be some balance.
—Peace and blessings everyone.
@Leigh
I can see the fire in that asian and black relations thread now. 🙂
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@Sharina: I will hate to see you go will miss you hurry back soon.
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@Sharina,
You actually believe that it will be over by then?
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@Mary Burrell
I will miss you. I will try to sneak a peek even if I don’t comment. Time flies so I will be back in no time.
@Anne
I really hope so.
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@Sharina
You will be missed. However if you are dropping out over the behavior of one or two commenters, please reconsider.
Herneith wrote something months ago that put everything in perspective for me: (I’m paraphrasing) “It’s all just entertainment.”
She is right. Commenting here is primarily entertainment. We are not going to change the world with our words. If we are fortunate, we can find like minded people with whom we can share information, learn together and de-stress from the daily abrasions of being Black in a White Supremacist society.
Zapping trolls (both the drive-by variety and the resident variety) can be draining. Sometimes you have to step back and let them make twisted comments or play mind games ——- and ignore them. Not everyone is worth your precious time and energy.
Sharina, you bring a lot to the table. If you need a break, that is understandable, but keep in mind there are others here who value you and what you have to say.
Get your rest. We await your return.
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@Afrofem
Thanks. I consider this place my break from school work. It is nice to read the experiences of my brothers and sisters in Africa and many parts of the globe. It is distracting when they can not speak and be shut down by someone who does not live their experience. Between the Peter Liang thread, open thread, and The Asian Supremacy thread it was mind-blowing.
Time flies and I may very well be back sooner, but right now I need the break. Do me a favor and give them hell. Do not let anti-black attitudes slide no matter who engages in it.
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@ Sharina
I second everything that Afrofem just said.
The dynamic duo’s (aka trolls’) true colors appeared long ago on the reparations thread when they battled against reparations – pretending that they had personal stakes in that process. I don’t believe either of them really respect Black people collectively.
That blood (time and energy) sucking vampire should be the one leaving, not you!
Don’t stay away too long. Your insightful voice is needed here.
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@Kiwi
I really don’t care what you think or suspect because you are still wrong about Somalis.
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@Abagond
Austria is about to elect a far right president.
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@ villagewriter
While Austria differs a bit from the rest of Europe, I see the success of the FPÖ as part of the general surge of the “New Right”. Which I think Trump is also a part of.
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President Obama plans to visit Hiroshima after he attends the G7 summit. He will be the first American president to visit the memorial. The White House says he will no be making an apology.
If he were to make an apology I think their would be some back lash and politicale fall out here.
I think this comes from the indoctrination Americans have gotten from state schools. The justification behind the nuclear holocaust was that it saved American lives by ending the war sooner.
The reality was the Japanese were already in retreat and unable to hold the areas they had invaded.
The use of these weapons on the Japanese was because their human value was viewed less then the Nazi’s in Germany. I’m sure their was some resistance towards using them in Europe because these were white majority countries.
So the war with Japan offered a perfect excuse to put these weapons to use so as to study the affects of nuclear warfare as well as send the rest of the world a message.
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Germany already had capitulated when the nuclear weapons were ready.
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@Kartofel
That may be true but even if they had not surrendered yet I still belive nukes wouldn’t have been used their.
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That of course we can never know for sure. I think if nuclear weapons had been available prior to D-Day or during the Battle of the Bulge, it is very likely that they would have been used. Afterwards probably not.
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@michaeljonbarker and @Kartoffel
Some historians have offered one alternate explanation on why The Bomb was dropped on Japan: as a deterrent to the Soviet Union.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/atomic-bomb-dropped-on-hiroshima
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I would just like to ask the question why does it seems as though white privilege is over reaching even into our school systems. Taking away accomplishments that our youth have earned and rewarding a student whose self-esteem got blown out the water by what a black child, yet they wonder why are blacks so determined to succeed. Just something to think about after seeing a video of kids during their field day events and the actions that teacher took.
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@Kiwi
“Just as you still think people like Zaynab and Patrick Gathara are lying about what Somalis have to go through.”
I actually agree with Gathara because I listened to what he said but you heard what you wanted to hear.
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@ Kiwi
I’m not denying that. I’m just not convinced that this racial solidarity would have prevented the American leadership to use a nuclear weapon on Germany if there were a significant military advantage to be gained. Why do I think that? The American nuclear programm was started primarily with Germany in mind.
@ Afrofem
I know the argument, but I think it is generally overestimated. Of course all military performance also serves as a deterrent for possible future enemies. But I actually think it is less so with the atomic bomb than with other military assets. There was no need to show the Soviets anything. They already knew pretty well the results of the Trinity test.
Also i’m unconvinced by the idea that there was no “need” for the Americans to use a nuclear bomb.Obviously there were other options to bring the war to a clear victorious end like an invasion or conventional bombing, but I find it odd to describe those as easy or more lenient. They would probably have costed a similar amount of lives. And certainly more American lives.
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@Kiwi
You need to read my comments again with a clear unbiased mind, you will find the answers there.
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@Kiwi
I talked about Zaynab in one of my comments, but your expert eyes missed it. By the way, I am done wasting my time talking to a wall.
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@Kartoffel
“While Austria differs a bit from the rest of Europe, I see the success of the FPÖ as part of the general surge of the “New Right”. Which I think Trump is also a part of.”
Why has the FPO become so popular in Austria? They never seemed to have been hit that hard by the recession in Europe.
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You will not find such a scenario in Kenya where one ethnic group systematically victimizes or discriminates another. The police are a hated group here and mistreat people irrespective of ethnic group. But in Somalia, a mainly ethnically homogeneous country, the different clans that make up the one Somali ethnic group are not so fond of each other http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03tnxqh?ocid=socialflow_facebook.
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@ Kiwi
Thanks for the link, I wasn’t aware of that. Though it is immaterial to the deabte about the decision to drop the bomb as the American leadership didn’t now that it wouldn’t cause surrender.
It is my assumption that racism is present in all thoughts and decisions made (in the context of Western civilization). So obviously also in the decisions the Americns made in regards to Japan. But how much of a difference it makes we can’t really tell without a White control sample. There definitly was a difference in how German an Japanese PoW were treated, which can only be explained by racism. If there was a difference in the treatment of the population during the occupation I don’t know.
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@ villagewriter
First of all I don’t think economic hardship caused the surge of the New Right in Europe in general. Second while the FPÖ profits of this general European trend, it is distinct from the situation in other countries as the FPÖ has always been a fairly established party that controlled many state governments and was part of the federal governemnt from 2000 to 2006.
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@Kartoffel
It is my understanding that economic hardship provides a spring board for nationalist and far right sentiments in a population https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/jun/02/economic-insecurity-nationalism-on-the-rise-globalisation-nouriel-roubini.
At least in Poland it seems that is one of the reasons they support populist leaders. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/18/the-guardian-view-on-polands-turn-to-the-right-europe-is-correct-to-be-concerned
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@villagewriter
It certainly is a common explanation. It just doesn’t convince me, because many people who support these parties (I’m naturally best informed about the example of my own country, the AfD) are not poor or impoverishing at all. I think it comes mainly from a generel sentiment of unfavourable change, especially regards immigration, Islam, the EU and gender roles. The phenomenon is actually negatively corrolated with the economic situation if you compare Northern and Southern Europe. Eastern Europe I don’t count at all as their right-wingers like the Polish PiS and Viktor Orban are just the regular conservatives of these societies – even though they differ not much programmatically from the New Right parties.
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First estimates have Hofer (FPÖ) at 50.2% and Van der Bellen (Greens) at 49,8%. The definite result will probably not be in until tomorrow.
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@Kartoffel
I agree. There were other options to end the war. Those options such as fire-bombing civilians, etc., were nearly as horrific as the A-bomb.
Ultimately, I think the atomic bomb was dropped in a show of hubris.
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Two white guys go on bombing spree. No mention of their religion and the word terrorist doesn’t make it into the article.
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/05/17/twins-bombs-ieds-caleb-tate-daniel-tate/
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@villagewriter
I found it quite curious that you would make this comment about a commenter who had spent little time in Kenya:
After making comments like these
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/top-mass-murders-of-2015/#comment-301173)
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/top-mass-murders-of-2015/#comment-301190)
I am not saying that the commenter you disagreed with is correct, or is somehow not making dubious claims that you find to be different in your experience. I accept and acknowledge that.
But maybe you can now understand why someone *might* have a similar reaction to you when you expound about your expertise on China, a place you have never been to or have a close relationship with, and a language you do not understand. Of course, someone with a different relationship to the system may have valuable input or viewpoints to shed light on blind spots that someone perhaps more “inside” the system may hold, but that is true anywhere, including Kenya.
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On the issue of the Austrian election
Van der Bellen (Greens) won with 50,3% of the vote. He was generally favoured by city-dwellers, women and the university-educated.
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@Jefe
I provided links, which you and the rest read and maybe “disproved” (I still do not agree with your views by the way because experts who have lived there disagree with you). When you did, I did not insist that my view was the correct view. Kiwi insists he knows everything that goes on in my country and dares to tell me off even when I dismiss his claims (with evidence I might add). China’s rise as a major economic power has drawn curiosity from economists all over the world. There are various publications, including China Daily that sell their newspapers here. Unlike Kenya, China is hot news and various books have been written about it and talks given about it. Those are the places I based my comments on. I do not see how this compares to Kiwi’s “expertise” in Kenya and I think you comparing it with Kiwi’s assertions is quite distasteful and moronic. I do not have the time to entertain the two of you.
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@Jefe
You also need to know that Economists are not exactly prophets in the mythical sense of the word.They look at data and try and make predictions that are most likely to take place. Anything based on data is going to draw varying reactions from different people. What we were basically doing in that comment thread (that you have thrust here to prove a point ) is making predictions with data. You said that your visiting China every month and talking to factory workers (I bet you talked to millions of them) gave you that ingredient you needed to prophesy.But when it comes to social issues, which I and Kiwi were arguing about, experience trumps everything else. Had Kiwi been using data to talk about this country’s economy then my experience here would not have been enough to disprove him. Your childish nature shows when you now attempt to compare the two instances. I have never lived in China, but since I know they do not need a congress or parliament to make a decision, I believe they are much more equipped to handle demographic issues much faster than Japan.
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@Villagewriter,
I would be very dubious of any information you get about China that is coming directly out of China, a place that treats all that kind of information as “national secrets”. They change the information to fit the government’s objective and scrub clean anything that says anything to the contrary and even arrest and jail people who publish or circulate information that they do not like. Non-chinese journalists are often kicked out of the country or not even allowed to come in. Now that China has passed laws to forbid foreign media agencies to publish anything online unless the data servers reside in China, we can expect that more and more information coming out of China will be inaccurate.
WordPress is banned there.
You can read stuff like the China Daily, but you have to maintain a discerning eye to all of it. China Daily (and the Global Times) is often quoted in HK, but only in regards to it being the mouthpiece to the CCP. No one really expects to get any accurate information from those sources (especially data or interpretation of law), even those who are unabashedly pro-government or pro-establishment (ie, “pro-Beijing”) in Hong Kong.
I was literally in Beijing when the crackdown on the FalunGong occurred in 1999 and flew back to HK 2 days later — learning of the discrepancy of the information in China and in HK. That taught me the starkingly clear lesson regarding information about China coming from China.
This was again so painfully obvious during Hong Kong Umbrella’s movement during Sep-Dec 2014. Not only did I have many close friends right on the front lines when the police deployed their tear gas, I went to visit the protest sites many times during that period, and sat and listened to lectures and talks given at the sites. I also took a couple trips to mainland china during that period and read the print media there and watched the TV coverage of the events. The depiction was very false. Once you witness first hand how false their information is, then you know how much credibility you can put into those sources.
One of my close friends is a correspondent for Shenzhen Cable News. He tells me every day of how he has to editorialize his report to make his bosses happy. I get the firsthand report, for example, of ZhangDejiang’s (#3 in the CCP) visit to HK a few days ago, and how they treated journalists. He wants to quit his job to try to work for one of the foreign media outlets just to have more freedom in reporting the news, and I am trying to help him with that.
Do you remember when the US embassy in Beijing published the daily air quality index as recorded on the embassy grounds? The Beijing government tried to force them to take it down (I suppose as a national security measure). Local residents soon discovered that they held more credence on the numbers on the US embassy website than in anything the government was telling them.
One of the sites I consult to get updated issues on labour conditions in China is “China Labor Watch”. They are based, of all places, in New York City. Their website is banned in China.
I have done a lot more than just “visit” China every month to interview factory workers and to visit friends and relatives. I was on a team for a project sponsored by the Asian Development Bank to study the situation of China’s National Social Insurance system. I am originally an actuary by training, so I was involved in studying China’s national pension system. They picked the NE province of Liaoning as a pilot for the study, and in the course of that study, I had to make several trips to China to interview officials from the Social Insurance bureau and municipal governments. Even now, I explain to European companies about how stuff like labour unions and occupational insurance work in China. You could say I am the one writing stuff about it and giving talks about it.
I am in talks right now with a company to do a blog for them on CSR issues across Asia, with a large focus on China. Maybe one day soon you can quote me as one of the experts on the subject in your online links.
I agree with the first part of the sentence. Their decision making is certainly a lot more swifter than the typical parliamentary or multi-party system that you find in many other so-called “democratic republics”.
I think the second half of that statement is only partially correct. While swifter decision making will equip them somewhat more to react to problems, that may sometimes result in decisions that can only be regarded as “harmful” or even “wrong”. It might also give them the mandate NOT to react appropriately to problems. And if information discussing and debating it is quickly scrubbed clean of any inconsistency with the party line, then people will never know. Xi’s reign has given rise to talk about a looming “2nd cultural revolution” (if not going on already). We can talk about it in HK, but that discussion is scrubbed clean in Mainland China.
Also, things like reforms to fix the pension and health care system take DECADES to realize the effects. The relaxation of the one-child policy last year is a bit of too little, too late. In this case, the one-party rule in China DELAYED the appropriate measures that would have come about sooner in a more multi-party parliamentary democratic republic.
Given my actuarial background and current work in CSR, this is something I do pay close attention to.
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@Jefe
“I would be very dubious of any information you get about China that is coming directly out of China, a place that treats all that kind of information as “national secrets”.”
I totally agree and that’s why anyone can be wrong about China’s economic health.
“I have done a lot more than just “visit” China every month to interview factory workers and to visit friends and relatives…..You could say I am the one writing stuff about it and giving talks about it.”
You are Chinese? By the way here are some of the guys I follow on China issues:
Deborah Brautigam
Stephen Chan
Howard W. French
If you don’t mind, what do you think about the future of the BRICS bank and was the Umbrella movement a sign of trouble in the future for China?
“I am in talks right now with a company to do a blog for them on CSR issues across Asia, with a large focus on China. Maybe one day soon you can quote me as one of the experts on the subject in your online links. ”
I would love to quote you but I may not agree with your articles all the time.
“Also, things like reforms to fix the pension and health care system take DECADES to realize the effects. The relaxation of the one-child policy last year is a bit of too little, too late. In this case, the one-party rule in China DELAYED the appropriate measures that would have come about sooner in a more multi-party parliamentary democratic republic.”
Your argument is convincing. But judging from history aren’t they more likely to ignore the old generation like South Korea and bring in workers from the Philippines if they need labor. I made the suggestion about the Philippines but you quickly dismissed it without hearing me out. The country, I read, is growing economically but they also still have the “left behind children” problem mainly brought about by parents moving to other countries to work.http://pulitzercenter.org/projects/asia-philippines-uae-dubai-paris-nanny-overseas-migrant-labor-work-children. They move to countries like Saudi Arabia where they are not allowed citizenship and are often mistreated. What if China opened the door for them to move in with their families like the USA.
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@Afrofem
It is a tiny fraction of the EU overall, I agree. But if at the end of this Crisis, 500,000 refugees and migrants end up in Sweden (not saying it will be this high), that is pretty big for a country of 9.5 million people. Given their small populations, I can somewhat understand how countries like Latvia and Slovakia seem very reluctant to take in refugees and migrants. If your country had just 2 million people, even 100,000 newcomers would be a huge, rapid, change. In any case, I agree with you that if countries like the US and UK would actually take their fair share of refugees, then countries like Slovakia and Latvia wouldn’t need to worry at all.
I’m not claiming you are saying this, but if you are trying to argue that Europeans are more hostile to refugees than people in other parts of the world, I have to disagree.Yes, Lebanon and Jordan have done more than their fair share to help refugees, but so have European countries like Sweden and Germany. And what about the rich gulf states such as Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Qatar? These nations are certainly capable of supporting large refugee populations, but they appear to have taken very few, if any, refugees. I think hostility to refugees and migrants in general can be found anywhere.
That is true, and I agree that nations responsible for causing problems in the Middle East and Africa, such as the US and France, should be taking in more refugees and migrants. But I don’t think it is fair that countries like Finland, for example, should be forced to open their borders to migrants if they choose not too. This opinion might not be too popular on this site, but I do think there is a bit of a double standard with regards to Western nations taking in refugees, versus non-Western nations. Nobody demonize countries like Saudi Arabia or Japan, for not allowing migrants in. But if a country like Poland or Latvia doesn’t want to allow migrants in, they are all of a sudden seen as evil, even if they are less responsible for destabilization in the Middle East than Saudi Arabia is.
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@ Benjamin
You made some good points. There seems to be more agreement that disagreement between us.
I’m glad you pointed that out. The Gulf states should be at the front of the line when it comes to shame. Some of their citizens are financing some of the factions in Syria and Iraq that are wreaking such havoc in the region. They compound the situation by not accepting the human consequences of their policies. Since the Western news media don’t focus on those states, it is easy to overlook their aggression and callous disregard for their fellow Arabs.
I don’t necessarily think of the Baltics or Poland as “evil”. Especially beleaugered Latvia. Foreign banks hollowed out the Latvian economy, causing twenty percent of the population to emigrate seeking jobs. A lot of people point to Greece as the poster child for asset stripping, but Latvia was actually the first demonstration project of neoliberal policies. Many Latvians and Poles are themselves economic refugees.
While I understand modern nation-states are complex societies with differing agendas, that does not completely absolve them of their responsibility to other human beings. The Golden Rule is not diminished because you live in a large society with millions of other people instead of a band of twenty hunter-gatherers. If anything, responsibility increases with your ability to help others.
I know I’m veering into ethics, but would the people of France, Saudi Arabia, or Qatar want to be turned away if disaster or war forced them from their homes? Would they want any of their children or descendants to be treated the way Syrian, Afghan, Iraqi, Libyan, Nigerian or Ethiopian refugees are currently treated?
Finally, I think of consequences for the countries that have turned their backs on those in need. They may not suffer pangs of conscience or even think of the people they are harming at this time. However, people stuck in squalid transit camps, misused and abused throughout their journey for safe refuge will never forget their trauma. It will become a part of their history. They will remember who turned them away at their time of need.
The Shona people of Zimbabwe have a proverb that states:
“The axe forgets, but the tree remembers”
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@ Afrofem
Exactly.
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@Afrofem
Would they want any of their children or descendants to be treated the way Syrian, Afghan, Iraqi, Libyan, Nigerian or Ethiopian refugees are currently treated?
Of course not, you make a good point. Too often we don’t put ourselves in the shoes of those less fortunate then ourselves. This of course can lead to dehumanization. On the other hand, though, in a few circumstances I can understand why people have been hesitant at accepting very large numbers of refugees. Of course I’m talking about a handful of situations here, certainly not the norm.
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On the refugee issue
A stronger emphasis should be placed on a humanist internationalism. The displacement of millions of people is a problem for all mankind. If the major power blocks of the world would share the burden, it would still be a big challange, but hardly overwhelming.
I think it makes a big difference how the refugee situation is perceived if a society has experience with displacemnt itself. For example the people in former Yugoslavia were at first rather accomodating to the refugees marching through. Many explained their help with personal or family experience in the 90s. In Germany some influential politicians experienced displacemnt as children or were born to refugees. Even the German displaced perons associations (normally rabidly right-wing) were the opinion that we can’t just say that this isn’t our problem.
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@Kartoffel
Do you think we should differentiate between economic migrants and refugees fleeing things like civil wars?
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@ Benjamin
I would rather differentiate on how dire the situation is. What does it matter if the the refugee face death because of a war or a famine?Of course practically international help can reach people affected by natural desaster normal much easier than by conflict.
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@Kartoffel
Yeah I agree. Those in a very dire situation should be given precedence over those who are doing alright, and are merely looking for something better. Not saying the people who are merely looking for something better should be forever shut out. But I feel that there should be a differentiation between people who’s lives are in danger, and those who are looking to be more successful.
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@ Benjamin
We seem to be pretty much of the same opinion on the matter. Saving somebody who’s life is in danger is a moral imperative.like saving the shipwrecked.
Voluntary migration is something different, more about smart policy than ethics. While I consider it silly to ban immigration, I wouldn’t condemn a society that decides differently.
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@Kartoffel
Yeah I can’t understand banning voluntary migration. But I could understand limiting it in certain scenarios.
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@Benjamin
“I can understand why people have been hesitant at accepting very large numbers of refugees. “
I also understand. I live in a city with multiple, large refugee populations. There is a lot of discomfort, shifting of positions, neighborhood changes, accomodation and outright hostility from both the native population and the newcomers.
The refugees sometimes bring their fights with them, so there are internal conflicts that spill over into view of other communities.
For African Americans there is also the complexity of dealing with people who move here with a one dimensional view of America. They look at Black people through a White Supremacist lens. This tendency is pronounced in first generation East African refugees who go to great lengths to avoid and differentiate themselves from the native born Black population.
Their actions and attitudes evoke a mixture of amusement and irritation from me and other slave descendant Black people. Generally by the second generation born and raised in the US, they adapt. That generation has a clearer view of social and racial realities. They understand the various groups of people. They have some idea of the local and national history.
That second generation can be very productive. I don’t mean this is a purely material sense. They still retain that immigrant optimism, so their culture is geared to material and economic achievement. What makes that second generation exciting is their willingness to engage in cultural exchanges. They are open to teaching and sharing aspects of their culture that enriches the entire city. They are also open to learning about other cultures. They begin a process of synthesizing a new culture from their grandparents immigrant culture and the local Black culture. It can be a pretty fascinating process to observe.
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@Kartoffel
“I think it makes a big difference how the refugee situation is perceived if a society has experience with displacemnt itself.”
I agree. Perhaps that explains why the German people have acted in a generally positive and productive manner during this current refugee crisis.
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@Afrofem
Generally by the second generation born and raised in the US, they adapt. That generation has a clearer view of social and racial realities. They understand the various groups of people. They have some idea of the local and national history.
Indeed the children of immigrants or refugees in the US tend to adapt very well. A positive mutual assimilation often occurs, where both the local population and refugee or immigration population share their cultures with one another. In a generation or two, aspects of the refugee or migrant culture become part of American culture, while at the same time they have been thoroughly ‘Americanized’ themselves. I think that because of its large population and long history of mass immigration, countries like the US would be best suited for successfully integrating a large, foreign born, population.
“I think it makes a big difference how the refugee situation is perceived if a society has experience with displacemnt itself.”
I agree. Perhaps that explains why the German people have acted in a generally positive and productive manner during this current refugee crisis.
I agree that countries where people themselves have been displaced probably will show the most empathy for refugees. And that is a good thing. However, even if they have a lot of empathy, if they have never integrated a large, foreign born population before, it’s going to probably be a challenge for them.
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@Benjamin
“…if they have never integrated a large, foreign born population before, it’s going to probably be a challenge for them.”
Agreed. It will be a huge challenge. There will be frustration, anger, bewilderment and fear on everyone’s part. There will be jockeying for position and some people in the host country will never adapt to the presence of the newcomers.
If there is patience and a good faith effort to treat the refugee population as new citizens, over the course of a generation your culture is rewarded by that synthesis process I described.
It seems like a lifetime ago that I didn’t know about Muslim Ramadan, the Jewish High Holidays, Eritrean injera topped with doro wat, the garlic and chili heaven of Korean cuisine or carnitas with salsa verde (otherwise known as a heart attack on a plate…so good!).
A local fitness club thrived when they accomodated Somali women who wanted women only nights and found that a lot of Black women also felt more comfortable exercising with no men around.
Local grocery stores that used to stock cilantro, ginger and chili peppers as an afterthought, now have huge piles of these ingredients fresh on the shelves to meet increased demand.
Weaving in a new population can bring fears of losing a cherished national and cultural identity. I can understand those fears. However, the gains are much greater than the loss.
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Correction:
“the gains can be much greater than the feared losses.”
There are no guarantees in life.
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@ Kiwi
Agreed. While I do think past experience with displacement can influence a society on the issue, this argument shouldn’t be exaggerated either. It is one narrative that can be overshadowed by others. During the past year it was internationally presented as if Germany were totally different than other comparable societies like France. and there was a difference in policy and especially rethoric, but in the opinions held by the population it was probably not more than a couple percentage points.
@ Afrofem
Problem is, your argument that a society will despite all hardship eventually gain from the immigration is rather speculative. From many Eastern Europeans I have heard something like this: “Look at the UK, France, Germany and Belgium. Why should we let Muslims in and burden us with all these issues? While that is a pretty bigoted line of thinking, it is also pretty hard to argue against.
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@Afrofem
I’m curious, what if the refugee or immigrant population outnumbers the native born population in a specific city. Do you think that a positive cultural exchange is still likely to occur, or do you think instead there will be something akin to a cultural replacement?
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@Kartoffel
From the reading I’ve done, the UK, France, Germany and Belgium never truly made good faith efforts to fully integrate Muslim immigrants.
Rigid school and housing segregation and pervasive employment discrimination and lack of birthright citizenship (in Germany) don’t count as serious efforts to integrate an immigrant or refugee population. Add low-level media propaganda like Charlie Hebdo and I don’t see serious efforts on the part of those former colonial powers to welcome Muslims into western Europe.
My statements about society gaining from immigrant populations are based on my own personal experience. Over the years, I’ve had the opportunity to interact with and observe immigrants from NE Africa, SE Asia, Latin America and Europe. It has been quite a fascinating process to observe people move to an area and see the first arrivals clump together for dear life. For many of these same communities, by the second native born generation they enriched the cultural and economic lives of the my city.
What made the difference was a good faith effort by the city and the state to work with the immigrants. The immigrants ran the gamut of Christian, Muslim and Buddhist. The process was not all sweetness and light and still isn’t, but the immigrants and their families are strong threads running through the fabric of local society.
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I wonder if the idea of outnumbering the “native population” was a concern for European immigrants when they settled in the Americas, Australia, Algeria or Kenya?
I’ve seen variations of that question in reading Western publications and I always wonder if it reflects fear of retribution on the part of Europeans or if there is another motivation at play?
From my personal unscientific observations, there won’t be a cultural replacement, but a cultural synthesis. It is something humans have been doing since Homo Sapiens trekked out of Africa and intermingled with Neanderthals and Denisovians. This article in Quanta magazine shows how those blending of early people made modern humans stronger, not weaker.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160526-neanderthal-denisovan-dna-modern-humans/
European people aren’t going “extinct” anytime soon, either genetically or culturally.
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@ Afrofem
Who or what is at fault for the “muslim issue” in Western Europe is an entire debate on which I can’t express my opinion shortly. The argument of many (rather liberal) Eastern Europeans is: “Why should we risk it?”, while the conservatives are convinced it is the Mulsims fault anyway.
On immigration in general
I think both is true. Immigration creates problems, but it also can be a great cultural, demographic and economic influence. But I think those who see it more negatively not just have more or less irrarional fears but concerns to take into account.
.
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@Kartoffel
I do agree that both is true.
Immigrants/refugees and the issue of immigration in general is pretty thorny.
Most people don’t want to leave the countries of their birth. Learning a new language and customs, etc. is a major hassle. That is under the best conditions. For a refugee fleeing violence, death and destruction the immigrant experience is made exponentially more perilous.
I agree that people in destination countries have to deal with all sorts of unknowns and have valid concerns. Dealing a influx of strangers is scary.
I think we all have to remember that each refugee is a human being with the same basic needs that you and I have. For many refugees, everything familiar is gone and they have to start all over again. How many of us would want to face that? I wouldn’t. Nor would the people in Eastern Europe who are building barbed wire fences.
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@ Afrofem
That is pretty much what I meant by “humanist internationalism”. I argue it every day against liberals who mostly think in abstracts, open racists who deny the refugees humanity outright and radical left-wingers who want to use the issue to promote their “no borders, no nations”- ideology.
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@Afrom
I wonder if the idea of outnumbering the “native population” was a concern for European immigrants when they settled in the Americas, Australia, Algeria or Kenya?
They didn’t, which was wrong of them. Although from what I understand Europeans represent less than 1% of either Kenya or Algeria. They left en mass when their colonial reign (officially) ended.
I’ve seen variations of that question in reading Western publications and I always wonder if it reflects fear of retribution on the part of Europeans or if there is another motivation at play?
Maybe on the part of the ones that took part in the Age of Imperialism. But what about the European nations that didn’t take part in overseas colonialism? Clearly something else must be at work for those nations. Some of them, like Latvia and Poland and Greece, were even victims of Imperialism themselves.
European people aren’t going “extinct” anytime soon, either genetically or culturally.
I agree, the idea that white people are going extinct is nonsense. For the record, as an American I support mass immigration and the taking in of refugees. So at the end of the day, you and I appear to be on the same side with regards to refugees and immigrants coming to the US.
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@Kartoffel
Your off-line arguments seem to be quite interesting.
A friend of mine once told me that if you take either right wing ideology or left wing ideology to their furthest extreme, tyranny is the destination. Your comment confirms his statement.
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@ Benjamin
You made some good points. Seeing things from another angle is always enlightening. Thanks.
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@ Afrofem
I think any ideology that doesn’t put the indidual human being at its center is already half-wa to tyranny.
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@Kartoffel
Agreed!
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PREDICTION: Paul Ryan has a very good chance of being elected president of the U.S.
Over the last week Ryan has released a series of videos on his YouTube channel that come off as campaign adds for the presidency. Why run adds like that if you plan on running against Trump four years from now? Or maybe he is running them because he expects that no one candidate will receive enough electoral votes and the presidency would then be decided by the Republican controlled congress. Note how he has yet to come out and support Trump.
(https://www.youtube.com/user/RepPaulRyan)
Who is behind this ? The Koch Brothers. lmao
The Libertarian convention is happing this weekend in Orlando, Florida. According to some friends of mine who their and are delegates for presidential candidate John McAffe, Koch brother operatives have showed up and thrown their support behind the Johnson/Webb ticket. They are the “establishment” candidates within the Libertarian party. According to them Kock’s strategy is to make the Libertarian Party relevant enough to get enough votes to throw the election into the House or siphon enough votes away from Trump that Hillary would get elected.
The Kocks have significant venture capital invested in both Mexico and China and a Trump presidency would cost them millions of dollars. They would rather have a corporate friendly Hillary in the white house then Trump.
John McAffe has come out and said that he would take no money from the Kock brothers as that contradicts his outsider anti corporate message.
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These two articles break down who’s running and what parts of the Libertarian party they represent.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-surreal-presidential-debate-you-didnt-see-libertarians-in-las-vegas
http://www.thelibertyconservative.com/fight-libertarian-nomination-explained/
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John McAffe’s run for the nomination has attracted the “decriminalize everything” side of the Libertarian Party.
He also calls out the U.S. for being solely responsible for creating terrorism and is the strongest anti-war candidate. He released a video called “War is Hell” . His political adds deliberately do not include American flags or patriotism as that reflects his anti Imperialism and anti nationalism rhetoric. He says he will release all federal prisoners convicted of non violent consensual crimes like drug dealing, use ect. He will also pardon whistle blowers like Snowden and Chelsey.
He gets a lot of support from younger, newer libertarians.
That said he has a lot of personal baggage that you can find if you google around. He represents the white alpha male and all the privileges that accompanies that. If he wasn’t white he would have been jailed a long time ago.
His videos are well produced and edgy.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeHrjguBe6s)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTj2lhFSYkA)
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@ Kiwi
Good question. I can only speculate as I don’t know the source material, perhaps their line of thinking was like this: “They didn’t durrender even though we have bombed most of their cities? That just means we haven’t hit them hard enough.”
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When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Though I would say it was way more reasonable to expect the Japanese or German government to capitulate than it is to expect to “win” civil wars with bombs.
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@ Kiwi
I do want to do ones on heroin and crack, but so far just one on crack babies.
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@ Kiwi
No post on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. One on Hiroshima would be good. I do have posts on the atom bomb and one on Iran and the bomb written back in 2007 or so.
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@ Kiwi
Me too. I have come to the conclusion that the development of the modern state is an excellent frame to explain much of history in the last 400 years. That makes me think that the common comparison of Japan/ germany and Iraq/Afghanistan is misplaced. Japan and Germany had been fully developed states, and while completly detroyed they still had the personnel and mentality to quickly reestablish the necessary institutions.
Agreed. In Germany I think these elements contributed to stop any resistance:
a) The Nazis were thouroghly discredited. The deafeat was so total that nobody could reasonably claim that Germany had been winning the war and was stabbed in the back by dark forces (like it was done after WW1). Some have argued that that wouldn’t have happened if the coup d’etat of 20th July 1944 had worked and the new government had surrendered.
b) While they generally denied it, I think the Germans as a total felt the guilt. Deep down they knew how lucky they were not to massacred.
c) After a short wave of prosecutiion the old elites were left alone. The Adenauer era now ist mostly criticized for letting the old guard back into government agencies and companies, but I think it was a stroke of genius.
d) The potential for violence of any society can be pretty accuratly determined with the number of young men. And these were all dead or POWs.
c) The Wet had a good narrative to integrate the (Western) Germans. Fight Bolshevism. That unified ver different political camps like Sociel Democrats, political Catholicism and even the former Nazis. Intererstingly it worked in Eastern Germany as well (though much more violently).
All in all, I think the defeat and reorganisation of Japan/Germany are huge exceptions in history and should be treated as such.
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@ Kiwi
Excellent questions. I can only specaulate.
I don’t know when Germany gained that national brand of good craftsmenship. I don’t think it existed prior to WW2.
While the difference between the industrial products from Germany to other countries is certainly overstated by this narrative, there seems to be a particular culture of constant innovation. And it also seems to be restricted to machinery, the IT industry is completly underdeveloped. This might have something to do with the German apprentice system. It creates a large class of sub-academically trained personnel with a lot of practical experience.
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@ Kartoffel
Your comment about the German apprentice system is most interesting. It is the first time I’ve seen anyone discuss a downside to that system. Most media outlets in the US with a left orientation have nothing but effusive praise for that system. The right leaning media almost never mention the system at all.
Hmmm.
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@ Kartoffel
In the US, I’m aware of people who are primarily self-taught in IT, both on the hardware side and the software (coding and design) side. Some of them are proficient enough to work for IT companies or run their own businesses.
Is there a similar self-taught and self-directed community in Germany that you are aware of?
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@ Afrofem
My comment wasn’t meant as a downside of the system, I speculated that it might have contributed to the high productivity and innovation of German engineering. But that is very specualtive, normally the system is praised mostly for its contribution to keep youth unemployemnt low. But ten years ago it was heavily criticized and the OECD urged Germany to abolish it.
In Germany the apprentice system is mostly defended by the right, though it is not a highly ideological issure.
I don’t know about the IT industry. There are probably some self-taught people in IT support, because there i not nearly enough personnel with an IT aprrenticship or university degree.
@ Kiwi
Well, it depends on how you define greatness. The economic policy was hyper-Keynesian and only made sense if you take in account the planned conquests. It cannot be evaluated seperately from the war efforts. But if you consider it a great achievement to start a gigantic war with rather
limited resources, than he can be called great. But I value success more.
On the issue of historical muslim-german realtions
The relationship of Muslims and Germans is even older. Germans had a very different view on the muslim world than the French and British, especially the conservatives. Still orientalist, but much more romantic than hostile.
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@ Kiwi
Probably depends on how long ago the immigration happened. When my grandfather was a POW in the US he had some German American contacts who had emigrated from his home region. These people were very consious about their precarious situation and felt very much “German American”.
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@Villagewriter
It looks like those author references you offered specialize on the subject of China investment in Africa. I only occasionally read about that topic as it has only indirect bearing on where I am, but I am interested to follow more about it, especially how it is being depicted there.
It looks like if the governments in Africa are promoting this investment, they will try to paint a positive impact as they must get the buy-in from various stakeholders in the community. Of course, the investment from China has more appeal to many African countries v. what they got from the West. But I really doubt it is really for their ultimate benefit either.
When I read about how high speed rail will run across wildlife reserves, I do have to ask myself which parties are positively impacted and who are the true beneficiaries.
Also, part of it is to win “allies”. If you notice, China is basically in dispute with all of its neighbours, save for some uneasy alliances with Russia, Kazakhistan, North Korea and Pakistan. The latter is probably in an effort to contain India.
Much of this ally building is to help contain the USA and Taiwan too. How did the press in Kenya depict the issue of the Taiwanese cleared of charges in Kenya, but extradited with the assistance of the Kenyan government to Beijing on charges of fraud, as the Taiwanese do not carry mainland Chinese passports and have no consular protection in China. One of them was even a US citizen.
Since I am in HK, we are bombarded constantly with 3 categories of press:
1. Mainland China (all are CCP mouthpieces)
2. Local HK (run the gamut from CCP mouthpiece, pro-establishment, mixed, anti-establishment) – more is available in Chinese, but some in English or other languages
3. Western press
So we can see how each portrays what is going on in China, and compare one with another. Together with this, many people in HK travel/work/study/visit family in mainland China frequently, or have lived on the mainland previously. Also, we encounter mainland Chinese visitors (tourists, officials, businessmen) daily, and we go to school, work or live next to people who have migrated recently from the mainland. I cannot think of any other place on earth where people who are not from mainland China can encounter people who are, or who discuss China on a constant basis without fear (at least until recently) of being out in the open about it and update the narrative continuously with new information.
One thing we do see all the time is the stark difference between the legal system in HK and in the mainland.
Because we can compare the press sources, we can see clearly how narrative can be represented by different parties. Besides this, some of the policies expressed in Beijing have direct impact on HK so we are forced to take notice of them. Of course, each individual could have a different take on any issue, or simply ignore it if they think it is not relevant to them.
I think the Umbrella movement itself will not have major impact on China in general. It was just one of a series of events that pushed Beijing into opposition mode, not unlike the election of Tsai ying-wen in Taiwan, or the case lodged by the Philippines to the Hague, or the decades long resistance in Xinjiang and Tibet. The umbrella movement did have impact on HK governance and politics, demonstrating that the government itself will obviate the Rule of Law to satisfy its “colonial masters” in Beijing. Now the opposition has splintered into many groups, some of which are advocating more autonomy, even independence. So I think the Umbrella movement was like a zit on China’s face. Beijing tries to squash it, but it causes new zits to appear. The more they squash, the more the new zits.
China has even greater troubles to worry about than the Umbrella movement.
The most disturbing event in HK was the case of the abducted booksellers, esp the ones who were foreign nationals and abducted from outside mainland china without travel documents or the need to go through immigration and make them do forced confessions. Together with the incident in Kenya, it makes the world shudder that China can go to anywhere outside its borders, abduct foreign nationals who are not guilty of breaking any laws in the countries where they are located or where they reside, and take them to China to be tried (and likely convicted and jailed) for breaking mainland chinese laws. The UK does have some power in this (ie, formally declare that China violated the Joint Sino-British declaration treaty), and even though the foreign affairs minister has brought it up, Cameron has done NOTHING.
I am quite aware of the left behind children in the Philippines. I used to volunteer at the Asian Migrant Labour centre in HK and have talked to many with left behind children. Some I even know personally. I have also made dozens of trips to the Philippines and have met split apart families and left behind children. They must number in the hundreds of thousands.
However, the reason why I have to dismiss your (albeit initial plausible) idea that China could simply import people to work from the Philippines as a solution to China’s shrinking labour market (and consequentially, had to ask you if you had ever been to China or the Philippines) because if you saw the situation with your own eyes and understood the situation, you could see that it is not a very meaningful or doable solution. Why?
– China does already import Philippine workers in small numbers to work in certain industries (eg, international hotels). It has very little impact.
– China has never had any history or pattern to hire large numbers of foreigners to work in China to replenish their labour force. Even if they do devise one, they do not have the experience in practice to implement. And given the nationalistic fervor the government pushes down the throat of people, it would never be popular. The Han already hate the Uyghur and other minorities in their factories, and they are fellow citizens!
– China has a massive left behind children problem of its own. Much of the labour force used to staff the factories in urban areas in the South and East came from the countryside or other provinces. Because they cannot transfer their hukou (household registration) to the new location, they cannot bring their children with them, as there would be no housing, education or health care or any other service for non-residents. They are left behind with grandparents, or worse, with no adult care at all. The numbers are massive – over one hundred million, greater than the entire population of the Philippines. If the left behind children problem is large in the Philippines, it is HUMUNGOUS in China.
– Due to the one-child policy, the labour force will shrink precipitously after one more decade. There is no way that tens of thousands of workers from the Philippines could replace the hundreds of millions lost.
You cannot compare to the USA. First of all, the labour shortages filled by Filipinos in the USA are much smaller. And also, those immigrants have a path to citizenship. China has never let immigrants come in and become Chinese (with the possible exception of ethnic Chinese who fled from places like Vietnam and Indonesia during their ethnic Chinese pogroms).
US baby boomers are currently retiring. Could you imagine if the USA had zero immigration up until this year, and then when the labour force started to shrink, rely on a single country (say, El Salvador or Honduras) to make up for its entire labour shortfall? The Philippines alone could not provide for the labour shortage in the USA. How could it for China?
There is no way that China could fill its labour shortage at the scale it needs without resorting to other large countries such as India or to whole continents, like Africa. And that just ain’t gonna happen.
And due to the baby boom during the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), there will soon be a massive number of retirees (in the hundreds of millions) with no pension, no medical care, and no children to take care of them. I have the feeling that China is just going to let them die.
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Ladies,
What is your take on Being Mary Jane?
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@Sharina: I like Being Mary Jane but with Mara Brock-Akil leaving the show as program creator and executive producer i am hoping the show can keep it’s fire and momentum. Watch all the past seasons so you can get into the story.
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@Mary
I have been binge watching all day. It is soooo good. I just have issues with Mary Jane at times
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@Sharina: She was a little off putting to me at first i to be honest i didn’t like in the beginning but the more you watch the more she grows on you. Glad you are liking the show.
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Typo: *to be honest* ^^^
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@Jefe: Have you seen the TerraCotta Army inLintong, Xi’an, Shaanxi, China? They fascinate me.
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@Kiwi,
I agree that the relationship between Pakistan and China has become more cordial recently (at least compared to the other neighbours), as it serves both mutual interests, but I think it will remain somewhat uneasy as long as China oppresses its Muslims on its side of the border.
In order to grow economically to satisfy the growing middle class (albeit the shrinking demographics), it needs resources, including energy, materials and food, which pretty much explains most of its international activity now. But resources will not replace the labour force, so probably more and more of its manufacturing will have to shift off shore.
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@MB,
I have been once to Xian, as part of a Silk Road Tour to Urumqi and Turpan in Xinjiang and Dunhuang in Gansu. I went in 2005 and did visit the Terracotta warriors.
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@jefe: Thank you that’s amazing#Travel Goals
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With this in mind, would it therefore make more sense were Iraq to be split up into smaller states which are religiously and/or ethnically homogeneous? Could these then end up as having greater potential to become valid democracies? I’ve heard this option tossed around before, but what do you think?
And bigot people call Africans “savages”… It seems Europe has only recently come to a sort of peace, and there’s no guarantee that that peace will last forever (and the recent bit with the Ukraine shows the fragility.). And that was only gained after a period of war so intense as to ravage the continent completely.
One could say Africa was “ravaged” by colonialism as well, but that was the outside European force coming in and killing and oppressing, not all the different groups suddenly taking to *each other’s* throats in absolutely scathing force all over the continent in massive, total war.
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@ Abagond
Please could you do a post on Muhammed Ali? I have been meaning to ask you. He has been very ill.
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Oh! No! I just heard that Muhammed Ali passed way this morning.
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@ taotesan
Your wish is my command:
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Now maybe it might not be that “simple” — but nonetheless could dividing it be part of a more complex solution or, at least, a tool that should not be left out of the toolbox (that is, an option that should be available, but not a magic cure-all pill)?
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@Kiwi: “Of course it’s still an option. Just don’t bet on it having a higher than 1% chance of working.”
On it’s own, as a piece of a much more sophisticated solution, or both?
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@Abagond & All the black male commenters : In support of Black businesses there is a business called Bevel it is Grooming products for black men and it has a very impressive array of shaving products. I heard about them when I listen to my podcast. I am all for Black community supporting Black businesses.
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Folks, I’ve just had the most chilling, almost out of body experience! I was starving so I went to McDonald’s on the way home(I was desperate, it was the only place around). I ordered an Angus burger with extra cheese and onions. When I got home I ate it and lo and behold, I actually liked it! Either I got ptomaine poisoning from it and I’m hallucinating or maybe, just maybe, it was actually tasty. I did not get gas from eating the hamburger either! What say you?
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@Herneith
That burger will bite you back when you least expect it! LOL!
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I think it already is!
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Congratulations to the lovely Deshaunna Barber Miss USA 2016
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@Herneith: I am not a fan of McDonald’s but I have had the burger and it’s not bad. I had it because I was grocery shopping and hadn’t had breakfast that day and needed to eat something there is a McDonalds inside the grocery store I too was famished. It wasn’t bad but I don’t want to make a habit eating that stuff.
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RIP to young Christina Grimmy.
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@agabond,
Have you ever heard of The Black Guy Who Tips? It is a podcast.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/disney-moana-teaser-trailer_us_575f0b97e4b053d43305d9c4
Maui stars the Rock–a Pacific Islander who is half-black (not sure if he claims his black side)
And a native Hawaiian voice actress as the girl. Could it be that Disney is evolving?
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Sometimes I come across a piece that challenges some of my preconceived notions about things. MK Lords has a blog and I follower her on FB. Her piece ties together a lot of things that happened this last week as well as touches on issues women go through everyday. Its a good read.
View at Medium.com
Guns Won’t Stop Violence .. And Neither Will Banning Them
This past week started off rough and ended even worse. Plastered on my news feed was the face of a rapist whose joke of a sentence reminded me we have a lot of work left to do for women’s rights. As seethed in anger over the Brock Turner case, people still found it necessary to discount my experiences as a woman living in a culture that doesn’t believe me if I say I’m raped. My anger was invalidated again. Men pointed out to me that sometimes women make things up as if it had anything to do with the fact that 93% of rapists go unpunished and go on to re-victimize people. I was called crazy and overemotional for pointing out uncomfortable facts of my existence.
In another unrelated post about racism, someone threatened to throw me out of a helicopter. Just another day on the internet, filled with unoriginal, baseless threats because I stopped being nice. The news of Brock Turner was heart wrenching but not compared to what two other friends of mine were experiencing that week.
Another friend posted that her rape case would not be pursued despite evidence of her claims. I cannot begin to imagine what that must feel like to have your trauma minimized and your rapist let off scot free. I can imagine what it’s like to be too afraid to pursue charges against an abuser because you know by the age of 10 that as a girl you won’t get justice. We’re told we should be brave and report rape or sexual assault to a system that tries to break us again. My friend is brave but its no secret why most women don’t report and rapists reoffend at alarming rates.
It’s the misogyny inherent in the culture that shapes the system.
Yet another friend posted asking about how she should deal with a stalker. The stalker sends her vivid fantasies he has and is obviously unstable and unpredictable. The responses were mostly “block him” or “ignore him” from people who likely have never had to deal with the psychosis of a stalker. Well, no shit he’s already been blocked on multiple sites but that doesn’t stop him from creating other profiles. It would be wonderful if blocking someone on social media sites removed them from your life but if you have any sort of public presence they can easily find and harm you.
We’re told we should “just ignore” other expressions of disrespect too because the consequences could be violent. What does it say about men that they are so fragile they can’t be challenged without physically harming someone? My friend is super accomplished and speaks at public events. Her stalker has threatened to meet her there while also claiming he’s been to other events just lurking. Ignoring him just seems to make him even more determined as does giving him any attention.
Others said she should just carry a gun despite that she lives in an area where the laws are tough and ignoring that maybe she doesn’t want to carry a lethal weapon all the time just so creepy men leave her alone. I can’t speak for her preferences about carrying but I know the idea makes many women uncomfortable. Why can’t creepy dudes just f*ck off with their bull*hit? Why, after tragedy, is the response sometimes that the victim didn’t do enough to not be victimized?
I woke up Saturday to the news that a young singer, only 22, had been shot dead in Orlando after her concert. You can assume the gender of the person who did it. At 22, with her entire life ahead of her and now she would never bring the exquisite, unifying joy of music to others ever again. I wept and I raged. Another female voice silenced by violence. I thought about my friend being stalked and wondered if the cowardly man who shot the singer had been stalking her. I thought about how I can’t even talk about the issues I face as a woman without some man coming along and ignorantly “correcting” me, discounting my research and experience, or just plain threatening me with violence because I have an opinion. I stopped being nice a long time ago about this issue because my very existence is an affront to some and I don’t have the time to painstakingly explain the obvious anymore.
To ignore that there’s an overwhelming theme in these situations — men not respecting the autonomy of women — is to ignore a reality every woman faces.
The rights of people who aren’t women but also fall outside gender and sexual “norms” are also regularly threatened by the already dominant culture.
Orlando wasn’t done with tragedies, though. 50 people lost their lives in a shooting at a gay bar. One of the largest mass shootings in history because someone just couldn’t fuc*ing handle people different from him. People, whose lives made no impact on his, people who never harmed him, people whose only crime was existing. We have it better than most people in the world in this country. Women and those with different sexual orientations enjoy a lot more freedom than our counterparts in the rest of the world. How is this still a thing?
It’s clear that our liberal society is still not free from the shadows of people who want to keep us in the Dark Ages. Some of those same people pretended to care about the gays who were killed to push their anti-Muslim, pro-gun agendas. They are cowards every other day of the year when women are beaten and raped and gays are killed and trans people are also killed and banned from pissing in certain places. The morality peacocking of conservatives is vomit inducing.
And I don’t buy their reductive solution to these problems of “just carry a gun”. I carried a gun openly and concealed for nearly four years. I’m from Florida, which is better about gun rights than other places, but suffers from a deficit in treating people outside their limited Christian, conservative, white male worldview like human beings with basic human rights. I have a lot of anarchist and libertarian friends that have a more nuanced perspective on this issue but sometimes they even miss the point.
Guns won’t solve the problem of violence against people with different sexual, gender, and racial expressions and experiences. Guns can be a deterrent and threatened populations should not be barred from protecting themselves. But this narrative ignores the preference of people that don’t want to carry in order to not be killed. The amount of guns a society has is irrelevant if the culture is the problem. Peaceful as well as violent societies can have a lot of guns or none at all. A gun inherently doesn’t change morality. Preventing people from attaining guns when they may need to also won’t decrease violence because the cause of violence is not the gun — it is the person and surrounding culture.
It took me carrying a gun to realize I didn’t want to always have to carry a gun.
But I’m not for more laws restricting who can carry guns. I believe they are an efficient way to protect yourself. The work Pink Pistols does is heroic. Historically, gun laws have been used to suppress the rights of racial minorities and LGBTQ individuals. I’m a bisexual, monogamish/poly-curious, not-fully-comfortable-as-any-gender-but-present-as-female anarchist. The last thing I want is the most powerful oppressor, the state, dictating how me and my friends can protect themselves. Lawful gun owners themselves do tend to be less violent on average than those who go through black markets to attain weapons. Those with concealed carry licenses have stopped violent shoot-outs before they grew into massacres. Lists declaring who is and isn’t a terrorist have been shown to be useless when the FBI arms terrorists regularly and when some of the people on those lists are dedicated peace activists. Whoever wants a gun to protect themselves should be able to have one, especially those in danger from disproportionate violence. I still have a firearm for home protection though I feel pretty safe in my little townhouse three exits from Tijuana. I might choose to carry again in the future but I don’t find it necessary for me currently.
Arm people who want to be armed.
However, the description that certain populations face far more violence than others is not a prescription for overriding the preferences of those who wish to not carry. Many people choose to not carry for principled reasons.
And I don’t want to live in a world where it is necessary to carry and when the preferences of these populations are disregarded — or worse their lack of enthusiasm about firearms is mocked and they are blamed for their fate. Our preferences are already disregarded enough. Maybe people want a less lethal alternative to protect themselves. Maybe guns make them feel uncomfortable because they’ve endured traumatic experiences with them. Maybe people don’t want to have to take the life of someone even if that person is trying to harm them. Maybe its none of your damn business why someone doesn’t want to carry — they just don’t. These are valid reasons for not carrying and should be respected by gun advocates instead of looked at with scorn.
Not everyone wants vengeance; sometimes we just want Justice.
I didn’t want the burden of having to use my firearm to take a life — even if I believe some actions warrant lethal defense. Do I sometimes believe violence is necessary to stop violence? Yes. But I’d rather live in a society that respects individual autonomy and realizes that a culture molded around the preferences of a decreasing demographic might be harmful to people outside of that mold. This is not the same as saying being a white, straight, Christian man is harmful inherently or that there is anything wrong with those identifiers. But admitting that the surrounding culture tilted in their favor will have an effect on a justice system that is supposed to work for everyone regardless of creed, class, race, gender, or sexual orientation is simply facing reality. It’s why rapists get away and people feel okay expressing and sometimes acting on abhorrent views — there is an awareness of social and legal inequality by predators.
The continued violence against historically oppressed groups should be evident that there needs to be a new way of thinking about solutions and systems. Arming people is a valid solution but not the only one.
I’d rather see more compassion for each other than cloaking paranoia of the other in guns. I’d rather see people taking a second to look outside their lived experiences so they can empathize more with others different from them. I don’t know how to stop extremists from hurting people — there may not be a nice, Tweetable solution. But decreasing the amount of violence on certain people comes from changing the culture that excuses violence in our every day lives. Whether it is domestic violence, international violence through wars, hateful rhetoric, dismissal of lived experiences or anything else, addressing these problems head on with a diversity of tactics is needed to reduce these instances.
Things are getting better as society becomes more compassionate but we must be vigilant in our compassion to continue this trend and ever wary of those who wish to reverse that progress. It’s not immigrants, guns, gays, or whatever other boogeyman that is the cause of violence; it is continued acceptance of it, complacency, and a culture that rewards hatred over nuance and empathy.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Thanks for sharing this article.
Loved this sentence, “The amount of guns a society has is irrelevant if the culture is the problem.”
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@Herneith
Thanks for the link.
I was aware of “carding”
harassmentin Toronto. It is a naked tactic to impose surveillance and build a police database on Black residents.I heard through a podcast about the case of Andrew Loku.
Sometimes I read, hear or see local news stories about fistfights between cops and White men in the region. Everytime a White person complains about “discrimination”, I think of that wide gulf of treatment:
1. A Black man holding a hammer (or a sword, knife, cellphone, remote control or wallet) is shot down like a wild animal.*
2. A White man shooting at police with automatic weapons is taken into custody without so much as a scratch on him from the police.
In a local small town, a young White man went into a restaurant, threatened to kill the patrons and staff and locked himself into the bathroom. There he not only damaged restaurant property but also caused over $50 thousand dollars worth of water damage in the building that housed the restaurant.
A local radio station described the police response:
http://kbkw.com/thousands-of-dollars-in-damages-after-aberdeen-man-locks-himself-in-bathroom/
White privilege is more than a notion and denial is not just a river in Egypt.
*The shooting of a wild animal like a lion or gorilla provokes a firestorm of outrage from the same people who become sullen when they hear the words “Black Lives Matter”.
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For the LADIES and gentlemen:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA70hhimR2E)
Ray, Goodman and Brown
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPUsQDm-HQY)
Tempations
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4dl6JSf-bc)
Commodores
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@Abagond & All The Daddies: Happy Father’s Day enjoy your day Kings!
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I second what Mary said. Happy Father’s Day!!!
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@ Mary @ Sharina
Thank you!
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Congratulations to the Cleveland Cavaliers long live King James👏🏿👏🏿
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I didn’t realize you are a monarchist Mary!
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@ Sharina:
How did I miss this?! And this is what I’ve been waiting for all along, love! Still waiting!!!!
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Sorry to say I have not seen it, but I am quite intrigued.
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@Lord of Mirkwood:
Filthy McNasty’s revenge!
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http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/06/23/overheard-at-the-house-democrats-sit-in
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http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/06/27/overheard-at-kanyes-famous-video-shoot
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http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/06/28/similarities-and-differences-donald-trump-and-burger-kings-new-mac-n-cheetos
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http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/06/20/6-reasons-why-donald-trump-fired-his-campaign-manager
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http://www.madmagazine.com/blog/2016/06/14/7-ways-that-donald-trump-is-celebrating-his-70th-birthday
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This is days late and dollars short but——Happy Canada Day to the Canadian commenters and readers!
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@Abagond: You should do a post on Mary Seacole The Angel of the Crimea.
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Thanks, Afrofem! I would wish the Yanks happy Fourth of July but after reading Abagond’s post on it I’ll give it a pass. any good sales over there?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Having been born in the UK, I’m watching closely.
Even if many who voted leave are not racist, there has been a huge increase in racist incidents. My parents live in an area where a majority voted remain, but there have still been xenophobic attacks there. My brother lives where most voted to leave and only a day or so after leave won, his friend was verbally abused and threatened.
Everyone who is not white British is a target. I even read a story of a white Canadian man who got punched in the face and told to get out of the UK.
Politically, everything is chaos. Economically, things are looking bad. Apparently, record numbers of Brits are inquiring about citizenship elsewhere.
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@Herneith
LOL! No sales I’m interested in. This holiday is good in my neighborhood because people literally head for the hills and there is more parking, peace and quiet.
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any sales on clothes, handbags or footwear? Keep in mind our CDN, is 80 cents to the American.
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@ Mary Burrell
Good suggestion. Thanks.
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Why do all the POC I meet in Japan have internalised racism or hold racist beliefs about other POC? Just the other day I thought I was clicking well with someone and then they make some shitty comment about how can Japanese people form relationships because there’s no visual way of picking one from the other. WTF?
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Netanyahu came to Kenya and made a lot of promises. I struggled not to gag.
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@ villagewriter
My stomach started churning immediately as I read your comment. This will be the beginning of the end for Kenya.
In a strange quirk of history, Delamare opposed the Uganda Plan which the zionists seriously considered Kenya as a homeland for the Jews before the Balfour Declaration was signed consigning Palestinians to their tragic fate.
I cannot but be extremely pessimistic that the long-term outcome of any collaboration in any form will be seriously very harmful to Kenyans. After 1973 Arab-israeli war , all African nations withdrew their support for israel except for apartheid south africa- jews and afrikaners included.
These israelis have played a huge (covert) role in the destabilization of Southern Africa, chiefly aiding and abetting the apartheid regime by the direct behest of south african jews, not afrikaners. It was because of the the israelis and south african jews, anglos and afrikaners that undermined sanctions. The israelis were instrumental in supplying apartheid with weapons of mass destruction (and helped build SIX ATOM BOMBS) and technical help in militarization and weaponry of south african army in Angola, South West Africa, Rhodesia, and Mocambique in exchange for tons of uranium and diamonds, and other commodities controlled by south african jewish cartels. The israeli predatory presence in Angola, Congo and Sierra Leone (diamonds) and Mocambique should not be underestimated.
So far, the very brilliant propaganda of jewish innocence has rewarded them pharaonic wealth in Africa and the means to carry their campaign of terror against the Palestinians.
When are we Africans ever going to pay heed to our best leaders, like Kwame Nkrumah and Patrice Lumumba, not plutocrat pets like Mandela?
What I am interested in the behind the scenes that Netanyanhu was able to inveigle israel back into Africa. Uhuru Kenyatta needs all the astuteness and long range thinking in dealing with these super-predators.
One now has to unravel what is meant by “israel is launching a $13m aid package to strengthen economic ties and cooperation with African countries, said Netanyahu’s office. Israel would also provide African states with training in “domestic security” and health”. That euphemistic ‘aid’ is enough to raise alarm bells
They (isrealis) are definitely not ‘friends’ in any way.
I am now sick to my stomach.
Time is not on my side to continue. Later.
.
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(https://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/jewishp/africa/congo_angola_israel.htm)
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@Taotesan
I have read about their activities in Africa and it stinks to high heaven. Uhuru is a bumbling fool. I will write a more comprehensive response later. Thanks.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/06/alton-sterling-father-of-five-one-more-black-man-shot-down-by-american-police.html
How many more stories will we see like this? I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone, reliving the same nightmare over and over again. The video is haunting. This man didn’t have to die and the media is already vilifying the victim. ENOUGH. We need some real change. Jesse Williams speech not 2 weeks ago shed light on this.. When will we see change?
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OMG,
I booked my flight to Washington, DC in September, and I just found out that I will be there on this date. Really would like to attend the opening ceremony for the new Smithsonian museum.
Opening Day for the New African American History Museum Is Announced
Thirteen years in the making, the museum says it will open its doors September 24, 2016
(http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/opening-day-new-national-museum-african-american-history-and-culture-announced-180958014/)
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@bygodsloveandgrace
I will simply say when we make change. We go through this with police and in a few months we go back to usual. Put money in black banks, frequent black shops and restaurants, etc. We will kill for expensive name brand white owned things, but complain about black owned things. Our money needs to fund our communities and we need to go back to black panther mentality.
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@villagewriter,
You know deep down inside they consider themselves Africans.
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@Anne
Oh, I was talking about the Israeli government not Jews in general.
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@Linda
I applaud your efforts with Kiwi, but I don’t think this is new Kiwi so much as hidden Kiwi. Prior to Fan…, Afrofem, and me he had attacked solesearch and pumpkin. I knew he was waiting to attack Mary the moment she agreed with gro jo on another thread. Leigh also became a target.
With that being said, I think he has always been anti-black. However Abagond’so blog gave him a safe place to vent about white people with acceptance from commenters. As I thought about why he is attacking everyone I thought about the time he harassed Biff about dating black women. If found turned it around and asked him why he doesn’t. He never responded but make the usual remarks. I remembering thinking “If he wants to date then why not?” Not even a day later he started chatting up pumpkin about asking put black girls etc. As if to show “I am not like biff”.
Perhaps I am making it more than what it is, but that came to mind.
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Sharina,
After reading the posts, I think Kiwi believes people here are Anti-Asian
I’m not convinced he’s anti-black, I think by coming to this blog, he was striving to find “solidarity” amongst other people of colour
I remember the Reparations thread, and his comments seem in-line with things that I’ve heard from other non-white people… so I wasn’t surprised.
Everyone wants to play the “when my people came to America, we suffered too” in response to black Americans discussing their historical suffering in the USA.
That mindset just goes to show that they don’t understand or get the dynamics or the history of the USA in relation to black people and that’s why they think “it’s not fair” if only black Americans get reparations.
I really think his feelings got hurt in the Peter Liang post because things seemed to go downhill from there. As someone who is part Chinese, I did understand some of Kiwi’s arguments and why he felt slightly upset
that’s why I tried to stress that Asian Americans cannot be represented by Asians from the Continent… that’s not fair to them.. . because Africans from the continent do not represent black Americans– they do not share the same lived experience in America…. so I do get why Kiwi thought hypocrisy was being done.
but I think things got taken out of context and went too far….
Kiwi needs to just spit it out and say clearly why he is mad and upset, and stop making snarky comments
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@ Linda
FWIW, everything you said corresponds to my take on the situation with Kiwi.
I think he may not be the only one who was very hurt by the arguments on the Peter Liang thread. King (veritasvenutas) took a lot of heat and seems to have deleted his account and disappeared shortly afterwards.
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@Solitaire
King does not comment as much as he used to but he is a long time commenter that is in and out as of the past year or so. He is quite strong, so I doubt he was “hurt” and if he was it was not much.
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@Linda
I will read the thread in full to see where it all came from, but it would be nice if he did tell people what he is mad about instead of lashing out at everyone. Especially some of the most sweetest commenters here.
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Congratulations to Serena Williams on her 22nd Grand Slam.
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@ Sharina
I hope you are right; I was worried because when looking at his last comments the link to his account now says “deleted” in many cases although not all. Maybe he switched e-mails is what happened.
I only interacted a little with King back when I first delurked in the winter but he was very nice to me and made me feel welcome. I’ve always found his comments to be interesting and insightful, and I’ve been missing his voice.
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Solitaire
I understand. I often miss Legion for the same reason.
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@ Sharina
Thanks. Legion was before my time but from some old threads I’ve read, it seems he(?) was well-liked for good reason.
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http://rare.us/story/congress-is-going-to-try-to-expand-the-patriot-act-tonight-and-hopes-no-one-will-notice/
Congress wants to expand the Patriot Act as part of the war against terrorism which of course will be used against American citizens. Eliminating due process accelerates the road towards totalitarianism.
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@michaeljonbarker
Congress and the rest inside the Beltway are not concerned about “terrorism”. However, they are very concerned about angry Americans (e.g. Trump supporters, Sanders supporters and ticked off Black people).
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Anyone read about this?:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/01/like-a-ghost-town-possible-serial-killer-has-phoenix-families-hiding-at-home/?utm_term=.d89c719e36f2
The victims are Black and Latino and the composite drawing is that of a white man. How come the press isn’t all over this as one of the victims is a twelve year old girl?
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Abagond, will you be doing a post on her?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-lives-matter-protest-photo_us_5782d1ffe4b0344d514fdddc
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Hey abagond, I have a question that’s really bugging me and I’m hoping you can give me some insight. I’m white, mostly german and a little irish, and I’ve read what you and others have said about how whites never invented anything much and this being true, I for one have a passion for collecting weapons like knives, etc and also I’m a huge fan of jewelry but I’ve been told that since (my people ) didn’t even invent fire or the pointy stick that there’s nothing for us to claim to own and it’s cultural appropriation. I’m so lost and does this mean I can’t own these things cause I’m white?
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Also, I read on a old post that you said that whites only got to own things like guns and ships and other inventions first by accident and that the Japanese know these things are not white, it’s this stuff that I try to understand but I guess I read it the wrong way. I just want to enjoy these things without someone saying I can’t cause its cultural appropriation u know? Uriel noted this in a older post as well saying about the jewelry and weapons (do you mean ornamental or functional? ) and this stumped me because all jewelry is made to be ornamental so on these grounds whites can’t own these things, 1.weapons of any kind even including rocks and sticks, 2. Any jewelry. 3. Any pets of any kind. 4. We are not to build or own anything resembling another culture which is everything. 5. Only plain hair styles. 6. No writing or mathematics, 7. No agriculture or hunting. 8. No worship of nature because it belongs to and has already been taken by poc who were here way before us. 9. Symbols of any kind including the cross. 10. And anything g ekse such as paper, being buried, even death itself because if you research, death was first witnessed and thought into existence by poc therefore whites have no claim to anything. This is why I think you guys won. It’s over. We’re going to not be here long anyway..
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@ironwork
Cultural appreciation doesn’t mean you can’t own things that were originally conceptualized by non whites. The issue is that history and civilization has been conceptualized around a white western construct. So it ignores the contributions that led up to where we are in the advancement of humanity. The question I ask is whether humanity has been advanced with this monopoly on history and ideas that is held together by force.
It is Western civilization that colonized the planet because their idea of “life” was their own reflection of what civilization meant to them and it was justified with a religious mandate. It didn’t matter if another culture was different the West took what was best and claimed the land for thier own because the residents were not “civilized” like them.
It is western civilization that decided that an idea could be property and could be “owned”. From that we get patent laws, I.P. and vertical monetary hierarchies like Microsoft ‘s 78 billion dollar monopoly. It is the state that guarantees that Microsoft’s ideas are protected and Microsoft reciprocates back to the state. It is this grasp on innovation that holds back smaller companies from competing to make better products. It is this monetary oligarchy that is held together by banks, governments, stock markets, corperations and “democracy” that represents western values and “freedom”.
It was the West whose wars amongst those they conquered and the world wars amongst themselves that cost 100 of millions of lives. Yet it views itself as the hallmark of civilization. It views itself as the standard by which all things must be judged.
It is in this morally deficient space that “leaders” like Trump and Clinton rise to the occasion.
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@michaeljonbarker
Good points. I really hate the way corporations have been fiddling with copyright law and preventing inventions from passing into the commons. So selfish and greedy!
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@iornworker
Smirking facetiousness does not become you.
The day that Whites/European descent people are courageous enough to face up to the criminal system that supports them at everyone else’s expense and their full human potential, the need for this constant sniping will disappear.
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I see but the sniping you referee to doesn’t bother me, it’s the other stuff. If someone wants to do that to me there more than welcome
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@iornworker:
Wow! I’m bowled over by your profundity!
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How does one start a think tank?
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How does one start a think tank?
Fart in a wind tunnel, you’ll get thousands of thoughts.
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@iornworker
I was referring to your attempts at sniping on this forum.
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https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/07/16/family-whose-descendents-travelled-the-underground-railroad-reunites-in-toronto.html
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Another attack on cops…in baton rouge
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/baton-rouge-police-officers-shot_us_578b9c19e4b03fc3ee51383b
Also, a cop in atlanta being charged with murder…no paid vacation!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/devaris-caine-rogers-shooting_us_578a31b7e4b03fc3ee511549
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@Glorp: I saw that it and I just too exhausted and drained emotionally and mentally. Sighs heavily. I am just unable.
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From my friends FB post.
“Louisiana is in many ways the eye of the storm when it comes to the modern civil rights catastrophe of the American criminal justice system. In this state local sheriffs are the de facto owners of inmates’ lives. Inmates’ lives are traded like cattle to enrich sheriffs and their local constituents. You might have issues with equivocating imprisonment with sl*very, but in Louisiana the conditions are undeniably identical. It’s a wicked system. It’s a system we’re taught our country did away with, but it hasn’t. Ask yourself if you’d be so unforgiving of an individual who chose to strike out at the enforcers of this system 150 years ago, and if you can’t find it in your heart to condemn such a person then, don’t do it now.”
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/louisiana_is_the_worlds_prison.html
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@Glorp
Thanks for the link to the latest Baton Rouge situation.
This quote from the East Baton Rouge Sheriff, Sid Gautreaux caught my eye:
The sheer hypocrisy took my breath away!
“Not about gun control…what’s in men’s hearts”…”heal as a people”.
This is mostly about gun control. Without high powered guns handy, “what is in men’s hearts” would not be so lethal. That Sheriff knows that.
It is also about runaway White Supremacy and White entitlement. Without those toxic ingredients, the madness would not continue in this country. The majority of Black folk are willing to live in peace with everyone else in this country. It is White police who keep killing people with impunity. Impunity breeds disrespect and ‘madness’.
If Sheriff Gautreaux wants us to ‘heal as a people’, he could do his part and end police impunity in his little corner of Louisiana.
Finally, the quote, “Each one of these individuals have family”, made me want to retch. Eric Garner had family, Rekia Boyd had family, John Crawford had family and Sandra Bland had family…the list goes on. Somehow Black people who are murdered never have family. They are just disconnected blips on the screens of the majority of Whites in this country.
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I spent the morning listening to Gavin Long’s YouTube channel. It’s been described as “a long twisted digital format”. I’m having a hard time disagreeing with him on a lot of his personal philosophy. His philosphy is largelt about overcoming hardship and individual empowerment. At some point towards the later part of his channel he begins to rationalize violence as a logical solution to resisting oppression. I personally think defensive action is moral but proactive action without being personally attacked is an area that is hard to justify morally. He speaks about revolution but without a group or community behind you then violent actions as he carried out just remain senless. This individuals had so much potential to be a leader in a community that it’s regrettable that he chose violence as the finale solution.
One of his earlier video’s “level up your life”. These are not the ramblings of a mad man.
(https://youtu.be/pwrUVswpezw)
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GHETTOS
Would someone be kind enough please to explain what is meant by ‘ghetto’ in America. Do they still exist in the sense of a segregated place of poverty where black people live and work/hustle and if so which cities have the biggest and/or poorest ghettos.
I don’t really understand the term, am finding it a little difficult to research.Although we have poor areas in our cities here in the UK, I would not say we have ghettos as I imagine them to be.
Thanks guys
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@ Zoe Jordan
Examples (not necessarily the largest, but probably among the largest):
Chicago: South Side
Los Angeles: South (Central) Los Angeles
New York: Bed-Stuy, Harlem, (South) Jamaica
Baltimore: West Baltimore
Philadelphia: West Philly, North Philly
most of:
Detroit, Michigan
Other commenters can correct this list or add to it.
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Thanks @abagond.
There seems to be this misconception that a ghetto is is place where black people sit around all day piping crack and waiting for white people to walk past so they can shoot them with their (illegal) Uzi’s. I feel compelled to do a little research to back myself up when I argue this.
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Answering from down under…
Let your alpha females side shine’?? Lmao!! At least it goes to show at what kind of level the debate is for some of you here.
@afrofem: Me, a quotation marks French? What do you need to believe that I actually am French, a picture of me eating snails? :^{)
@solitaire: This blog does not hurt my feelings, it just disappoints me to think that whatever the technological and scientific progress, whatever the lessons history may have taught mankind, kids will still have to live in a world where the only strong answer given to narrow-mindedness, racism and violence is more narrow-mindedness, racism and violence.
As to being condescendent, that’s what I usually do with clever but arrogantly dishonest students when they blatantly chose to ignore the flaws in their own reasoning: they’re usually surprised and unsettled to be treated with their own medicine… I am no teacher here but being the victim of categorization by the blog’s author does make me feel like taking the mick a bit.
Not answering a direct question: I only didn’t because it is completely out of the blue and irrelevant to my argument, and I also thought it was obvious what my answer would be: whatever ‘strategical’ reasons behind it, Napoleon’s decision was cynical and probably demonstrated how little he actually cared about true equality within the human race.
@ afrofem: You are paranoïd. Also obsessed with categorizing people into hyphenated classes, it seems (politically correct for racist?). Also, you’re way past MLK and Malcolm X? Now, that’s a statement 🙂
As for ‘lecturing people about how to fight their battle’, your misunderstanding here is to think that racism is a problem you are exclusively confronted to. I have the same right / feel the same urge as you do to fight racism. I have the same right as you do to have, and express, my opinion as to how best to fight the battle. And it seems quite clear to me that it CANNOT be by being a racist yourself.
Speaking about Youtube comments, all this reminds me of an old video where a US citizen was interviewed in Washington, and when he was asked to react on
the 2005 riots in France, he said that he couldn’t get his head around the fact that in France, skin colour still seemed to be so much of an issue, when ‘Here in the US, we settled this question decades ago’.
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@ jacques
I gave you a thread of your own:
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I forgot on which thread but we had a debate if Islamist attacks are likely Germany. Well, we had one yesterday. The circumstances are still a bit shady, but an IS flag in the attackers room and something he said before being shot points in that direction. No other casulties, five people wounded of which four are Chinese tourists.
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Anyone hear or read about this clown Rep King?:
http://globalnews.ca/news/2834560/gop-rep-steve-king-says-white-people-aided-civilization-more-than-other-sub-groups/
Here’s a response to this goof:
http://racisminamerica.org/why-are-you-mad-rep-steve-king-is-right-where-did-any-other-subgroup-of-people-contribute-more-to-civilization/
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@Kartoffel
Just read about that now. I believe the attacker used an ax?
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Just finished watching The Breakfast Club’s interview of Dr. Umar Johnson. The man’s got plenty of succinct, mind-opening points.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM0CCljRD6A)
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Just testing. Seems my WordPress didn’t like my Youtube link.
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@ Mack Lyons @ Linda
I moderate YouTube links, otherwise some of the longer threads become a quagmire of embedded video.
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@ Benjamin
Yes. I think he was armed with an axe and a knife. It is reported that he was armed with an axe and a knife. He is supposed to be a 17-year-old unacompanied refugee from Afghanistan, though neweer reports say maybe he really was from Pakistan. He lived with a host family.
He was shot by a SWAT team, that was in the area for other reasons.
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Is it okay for police to kill people in America? Why is it that some people say that more white people are killed by the police like it is supposed to make police look better. Is there a concept of extrajudicial killings in America?
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@villagewriter
Yes, it is completely okay for police to kill people in America. Their masters (the business class) designed and funded the police to use whatever violence they wished against certain “troublesome” groups. Here is a brief historical overview:
Extrajudicial killings have been quite common in American culture from various armed rebellions in the colonial period to genocide against the indigenous population to massive mob violence against newly freed slaves after the Civil War in the late 1800s.
There were also copious extrajudicial killings during the long labor struggle with one of the worst incidents being the Ludlow Massacre of 1914 in Colorado, where striking miners and their families were gunned down by state militia and mercenaries.
http://www.umwa.org/?q=content/ludlow-massacre
The USA has a pretty bloody history… present…and near term future.
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@Kartoffel,
Is that the same as the attack on HK tourists in the German Bavarian town of Wurzburg?
When people in HK use “Chinese tourists”, they usually mean from the PRC in the mainland. Those from HK or Taiwan usually would get “Hong Kong” or “Taiwan” (or relevant foreign country) inserted, otherwise, they would find it confusing. (as “Chinese” could mean the country or the ethnic group).
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It must be that one, as I just read this one from yesterday:
German Chancellor Merkel expresses sympathy to Hongkongers wounded in train axe attack
(https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/07/21/german-chancellor-expresses-sympathy-to-hongkongers-wounded-in-train-axe-attack/)
and this one:
Four HK residents wounded in German train attack
(http://www.ejinsight.com/20160720-four-hk-residents-severely-wounded-in-german-train-attack/)
They would never use the word “Chinese tourist” here, as it implies they are not from Hong Kong. Is that what they use in Germany?
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@ jefe
That’s the one. I wrote my post from memory and it seems it was me who shortened HK to Chinese. I looked at it again and most news paper articles mention that they are from HK.
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Didn’t think I could be any more disgusted in Trump. I was wrong.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/7/20/1550251/-Trump-laziness-is-a-trait-in-blacks-I-believe-that
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I was going to do a post on Trump’s acceptance speech, but then discovered I had written it last week: :
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Abagond: That speech was the best stand up comedy I have ever heard…
Much respect to Ted Cruz who actually sacked up and didn’t endorse Trump though–where was this guy during the primaries? We could have had a slightly less terrible man running on the republican side.
Will you be doing a post on Tim Kaine? Hilary’s VP pick?
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@ Glorp
Yes, I will be doing a post on Kaine.
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@ Glorp
I found that speech extremely unfunny.
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This is a bit off-topic, Abagond, but how many books do you read each month? You seem very knowledgeable
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Abagond: Unfunny to most, yes, maybe my taste in humour is a bit dark. Trump’s lies are what I was referring to. I really can’t believe all of this is real…
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@ Glorp
Generally one to four books a month.
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The crazy thing to me is those Black people who support Trump and doing these disgusting minstrel shows people like that sheriff from Wisconsin who is deplorable and those two clowns that call themselves Silk & Diamond and Omarosa Manigault and Ben Carson. I have a visceral disdain for Black people who are sellouts. These type of individuals just boggle my mind. I find it deeply disturbing.
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Folks, anyone shop at Rader Joe’s here?
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@Herneith
Yes, for a few items.
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There was also an attack in Nice, France recently. 84 dead, 308 injured. I used to live there, but luckily no friends were there when it happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack
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Does Kiwi still here?
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I meant to say does he still post here?
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Trump just asked the Russians to help him win. Disgusting.
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“I meant to say does he still post here?”
@ Richard Li
Unfortunately yes. He’s scheduled to open and climb out of his coffin soon. He has to sleep the sleep of the dead every so often… until he bites a silver bullet. Do you have any?
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@MB
grand understatement.
One of my friends / ex-students is from Milwaukee and she told me that she knew about that sheriff. I feel sorry for those people who live in Milwaukee.
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Hey, Abagond: How bout a post on Constance Wu?
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/constance-wus-viral-calling-out-racist-whitewashing-matt-damons-great-wall
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With the Pokemon Go being the big thing now a thought crossed my mind. I hope and pray no black people loose their lives wandering around in search for a Pokemon and end up in some white neighborhood and they get the cops called on them because someone thinks said black person looks suspicious. And the cops roll up on that black person and they end up getting shot and killed.
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@Afrofem: Does this mean that until ALL “whites” can oppose that racism (which is impossible for any individual to make happen as one cannot change another’s heart), then every individual “white”‘s “full human potential” can NEVER be realized?
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@ Red CoyWolf
I love Constance Wu. I’ve never even watched her on TV, but I’ve heard all about her through sites that cover issues with racism.
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@ Mary Burell
Perhaps the government should issue a seperate warning for blacks. Like the Bosnian government that you shouldn’t enter mine fields even when playing Pokemon Go.
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@mike4ty4
“The day that Whites/European descent people are courageous enough to face up to the criminal system that supports them at everyone else’s expense and their full human potential, the need for this constant sniping will disappear.”
It will take is a critical mass of European descent people to stop the system that supports beliefs and behaviors that privilege Europeans/Whites over others. Due to the entrenched nature of this system, it may take a rather large critical mass of people for the system to be abolished. That critical mass need not be “all Whites” to be effective. As you correctly point out, “all” is an impossible number in real human terms.
I believe, abolishing this system would take beliefs and actions of such a transformative nature, that any person working toward this goal would be tapping into their full human potential by default. Some examples include people who struggled against US slavery in the 1800s, people who dismantled legal apartheid in South Africa in the 1900s and US prisoners who are currently working to dissolve the Prison-Industrial Complex from the inside out.
I’m guided my views by the words of anthropologist, Margaret Mead, when she said:
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Just another day in the Great State of Alabama.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHD0emfSdKI)
I do believe the cops in this vid are Jefferson County sheriff’s deputies, judging by the patches. It’s amazing how this story hasn’t gotten traction yet.
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Abagond. I hope you consider a story on Korryn Gaines. Something about the police version of events is not right.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/maryland-woman-shot-by-police-in-standoff-posted-part-of-encounter-on-social-media/2016/08/02/d4650ee6-58cc-11e6-831d-0324760ca856_story.html
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@bygodsloveandgrace
Saw that story today on social media. Quite a sad one. It has been said that she was regularly harassed by police and that she uploaded the encounters on social media. Not true how that is, but….
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@sharinalr… Very sad indeed and the police accounts of what occurred don’t pass the smell test. I’m now hearing that her Facebook account was deleted. They aren’t going to make this go away so easily.. Her 5 year old was shot..Unreal…
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@bygodsloveandgrace
I saw that they were deleted as well, but the narrative is being painted that she was mentally unstable on some sites. Let the blame the victim begin.
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@bygodsloveandgrace&sharinalr: I was on another site and read about the young mother in Baltimore the story was very sketchy something is not right about that. And in this day and time you can’t trust the cops and their report. And you can’t trust the mainstream media either. Black deaths by police is just getting more and more frightening and too common place. May she rest in peace. I pray her young son recovers from this horror and he has some guardians to care for him. This hurts my soul.
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@bygodsloveandgrace&sharinalr: I thought I read that the police cam wasn’t working in regards to Korryn Gaines.
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@Mary Burrell
“I thought I read that the police cam wasn’t working in regards to Korryn Gaines.”—That must be the new story then. I read that they said they were not sure if they had them. This story hurts badly. A child killed in front of his mother. I bet they will try and manipulate the boy’s testimony.
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@Shirinalr: It’s too sketchy to know what really happened.
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@ Mary. These days I am not shocked by what police say. These cams always seem to be “faulty” when convenient. They want us to believe, this this mom had a shotgun in one hand while holder in son. I am tired of the obvious spin. Let’s see how this plays out.
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Can you guys check out my youtube channel and give me some feed back? I would really appreciate it. Thank
(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvOrpkpURqR_73pDClVq4_Q)
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” A child killed in front of his mother.”–This should read a mother killed in front of her son.
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Uau………… Black Lives Matter, now is GLOBAL!
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/05/europe/black-lives-matter-uk-heathrow-shutdown/index.html)
Hopefully, Abagond will write on this in a few days.
Let’s see.
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@munubantu
Thanks for sharing that article. Commenters Linda and taotesan have shared similar global stories.
BLM protests in Japan? Wow!
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Anyone hear or read about this. There is a serial gunman in Phoenix who is randomly shooting, killing and wounding people. All his victims are Black or Latino. The composite picture being put about looks like a white man. Yet, the police are declining to say these shootings are racially motivated:
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@ Herneith
I saw that on the news. They are even trying to misdirect with statements like:
“he is described as a light-skinned Latino or White male”. They are always ducking, dodging and weaving away from the truth.
On another subject, I also noticed the only parent doing a “perp walk” over the death of his twin babies in a hot car is a Black man. Scores of babies and children have been negligently forgotten and died in hot, parked cars this summer. Only this young Black man has been publicly arrested and shamed for this behavior.
How do forget your kids in the back seat? Is Facebook and Instagram more important than your own flesh and blood?
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How do forget your kids in the back seat? Is Facebook and Instagram more important than your own flesh and blood?
Apparently. This seems to be rampant.
“he is described as a light-skinned Latino or White male”.
As for the suspected shooter, I noticed this too. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t ‘Hispanic’ a catchall phrase used when referring to colonized Spanish speaking people. The Hispanics can encompass all sorts of racialized and white people. Hence, the police are being disingenuous when referring to the suspect as a ‘light-skinned Latino’, when in fact, he could be a white Latino.
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@Herneith
“…isn’t ‘Hispanic’ a catchall phrase used when referring to colonized Spanish speaking people. The Hispanics can encompass all sorts of racialized and white people.”
Hispanics or Latinos can be any color ethnicity and from a number of cultures and countries. The American Southwest had a number of European Spanish colonies, most notably in New Mexico.
A good number of the New Mexican Latinos are very pale and look down on the mestizo population from Mexico or the Southwest. They are also biased against Black people and Native Americans.
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Here’s how ‘polite’ Canadians behave when confronted by adversity:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-transit-bus-attack-1.3709083
Jealous Yanks?
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@Herneith
I have to say, having grown up in a rough neighborhood that the driver is no street fighter. Both he and that scurrilous passenger failed to land many punches.
It was a “polite” Canadian fight after all. LOL!
On a more serious note, the bus driver appeared to be non-European, so it made the passenger’s actions take on a shade of meaning that the article failed to convey.
I find it disturbing that many people seem to be on the knife’s edge of violence over everything. The ugliness of our governments aggression (both overseas and domestically) has seeped into daily life and it is a frightening trend.
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@ munubantu & Afrofem
Well, I live in Japan and I’ve never heard of it. I have definitely heard about several other protests, but none of them had anything to do with BLM. Then again, things do get censored here.
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@Afrofem:
Yep, they seem to be reticent about these things. But polite.
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@ Iris
I made that comment after seeing a shaded map on munubantu’s link:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/05/europe/black-lives-matter-uk-heathrow-shutdown/index.html)
The protests may have been exclusively on US military bases in Japan. That may account for the lack of coverage in the Japanese press.
Things are heavily censored in the US, too.
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@ Afrofem
Yes, it was that map that puzzled me because I have read/heard nothing about it and, since it’s something I’ve been following, I would expect to know something. If it was only in US military bases, that definitely would explain it.
Of course they are. It’s pretty bad here. Shinzo Abe doesn’t want media criticising his government and suddenly the loudest and most popular critics all lost their jobs.
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Will Smith has something to say about Donald Trump… in Dubai!
See,
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/10/entertainment/will-smith-donald-trump-islamophobia/index.html?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial)
He says, namely, that:
Trump’s campaign rhetoric has already waking up some (Black) Americans, to the realities of race in America. Maybe, in the end, it’s good to know (to be aware of) what he is saying openly!
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how can black folks emulate a community environment similar to other cultures? in the past we worked together to help each other. how can we implement that again. how can we economically consolidate to increase our power base and influence?
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This happened in my city. I see this happen from time to time when I do decide to go green and take the bus. It doesn’t always happen, but bus drivers are verbally abused due to fare disputes. From what I’ve witnessed, the potential passengers tend to be mostly Aboriginal/Native Canadian or sometimes white. Btw, the bus driver in question is Filipino according to a Filipino-Canadian news article I read. His ethnicity wasn’t identified in the local papers. I wonder why. Could it be the potential passenger was white?
http://pinoy-canada.com/articles/pinoy-bus-driver-assaulted-spits-on-his-face/
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And a huge congrats to American swimmer, Simone Manuel, for her gold medal win in the 100m freestyle. Woohoo! 😀
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@leigh204
Thank you for adding details about that incident. When I read the article, I noticed how neutral the language about the incident was. I figured there was a lot left unsaid.
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@Leigh:
Of course, they aren’t going to characterize it as racially motivated. This miscreant probably felt comfortable spitting at the bus driver. I wouldn’t be surprised if he used racist taunts before doing so.
On a side not, the 16 years old Canadian, Oleksiak, who tied with Manuel, attends the school where my sister teaches. I think Manuel’s victory was more exciting and historic however.
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http://www.ilhanomar.com/bio/
This lady is running for office.
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You have probably heard of the fight to get the Elgin Marbles repatriated back to Greece. However, how often if ever, have your heard or read about the art stolen from Africa by the colonialist? Here is an interesting article about the bronze plaques stolen from Benin:
http://thisisafrica.me/africas-looted-heritage-needs-to-come-home/
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@Herneith
Thanks for sharing that article. Funny how Black people are labeled thieves and looters by the most larcenous group of people to walk the earth.
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taotesan and others
What do you think of this:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/09/africa/orange-drought-kiara-nirghin/index.html)
Nurturing the interest for science in young minds is the way to go, definitely, at least for developing societies.
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@Agabond,
Do you think you would be interested in doing a post on this subject? Not sure if anyone here cares about what happened to Gawker.
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I just watched the biggest BS that I’ve seen in years.
I thought I was watching a track race and not swimming.
Shaunae Miller (Bahamas) just took a dive for the finish line in order to beat Alison Felix (USA) for the Gold medal
That is not a win that I can respect! Alison got robbed
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@ Linda
I had no idea you could do that and win.
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@munubantu
It is indeed a high compliment,(coming from you) asking my opinion on matters of science. Thank you.
I am writing on a very small phone and am having connectivity problems on my computer,and once sorted out, I could write out a reply to you.
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I found this and I am so excited. https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/
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@villagewriter
Thanks for sharing that link. I like the inclusiveness of their positions (age, gender, international).
Now they will have to endure State efforts to smear and smash them. I hope they push and achieve at least most of their objectives. We shall see….
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My African brotherso and sisters,
What are your thoughts on this? Can you expand on this please? I want to know what is going on.
http://www.panafricanalliance.com/china-africa-colonialism/?utm_source=ReviveOldPost&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=ReviveOldPost
@Abagond
I know you like to keep it American based, but can we please see a post or two on blacks in the diaspora.
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@munubantu
and
@sharinair
I am still having connectivity problems (did updates ) on my computer and it is very frustating not to give a timeous reply.
I can barely read the links on my phone you both had provided.
Hopefully after the Olympics and computer hassles..
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@ Sharinalr
I reached a point where the writer refers to Africa as a “country” and I knew that he or she had not done their homework. The Chinese did not start partnering with Africans in the 2000s but way before most African countries got independence from European powers http://newafricanmagazine.com/chinas-long-history-africa/. They helped train and arm our independence fighters from the early 1900s to as late as the 80s (Zimbabwe comes to mind). They were also here 600 years ago (took no slaves but left fatherless mixed babies) http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-10761840.
http://www.coastweek.com/3828-Kenyan-islands-with-footprint-of-Chinese-expeditionary-voyages.htm
Apart from that, Chinese history shows that they have always been inward looking. They do not follow Machiavellian thinking about power but are more concerned about maintaining “order”. They are not expansionists like the British and they do not view manhood in terms of conquering and subjugating the weak. Western media networks (including Hillary Clinton) have been pushing the “Chinese are colonizing Africa” idea since forever. China is making giant footprints in the continent and it is scaring the West (Africa was their playground and now the Chinese are spoiling it for them).
China is in Africa for its own interests too. It is looking for friends internationally to give it more influence in the UN. It also knows that the more Africans get wealthy the more they will buy products from the China. The railways and the roads being built also make it easier for them to transport raw materials.
The mass migration of the Chinese into Africa in a short period of time was bound to cause some conflict. The Chinese think most people are lazy-I read an article from a Chinese guy who went to a country in Europe and was surprised that the people there worked short hours.The Chinese government has started a number of programmes to educate its citizens about Africa to reduce such kinds of tensions caused mainly by culture shock. So, far these kinds of incidents have been rare in Kenya (rare than incidents involving racist expatriates from the west).
FYI:The Chinese who came to Kenya just a few years ago have integrated into the Kenyan society faster than Indians who have been here for more than a century.
Colonizing Africa was not easy for the Europeans in the past and it is definitely not an easy feat now. The Chinese are not interested in colonizing a continent when it has neighbors that are allies with its international foes.They know how white supremacy works and that is why they have made their presence felt in the continent that has the resources powering the West’s economies (France comes to mind). Here is a speech from Mugabe that can give you an idea of what I mean
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv2Xm-P3xAA).
The Chinese are not perfect but the ones that I have met do not have that air of superiority complex and entitlement that I spot on many Europeans who come over here.
Personal story: The Chinese were building a tarmac road in my village when their trucks broke a pipe that was supplying water to our house. My father went to them and complained and they called their lead engineer. He immediately came to our house and apologized and promised to fix the pipe as soon as possible. The water pipe was fixed the next day and the Engineer came back to confirm that we were getting water, then apologized again.
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Political ad on race. Good, bad or color blind ?
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zezs1qqkB8)
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Ryan Lochte and his stupid shenanigans in Rio is a perfect example of white privilege and entitlement and how they felt they could be a** clowns in a country with poor brown and black people that depends on tourism to make money. Lochte and his white bros vandalized property and acted like the garbage that they are and then lied and said they were robbed. Then to have the dominant culture make all kinds of negative comments because she didn’t place her hand over her heart during the National anthem. But many in the dominant culture want to make excuses for Lochte and his a**holery. It’s amazing how the dominant culture wants to shame Gabby Douglass for being unpatriotic and want to call Lochte’s egregious behavior youthful indiscretion. Mind you this fool is thirty years old. White privilege and whiteness is one heck of a drug.
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*To have the dominant culture make all manner of negative comments about Gabby Douglass because she didn’t place her hand over her heart during the National Anthem.*
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@ Mary Burrell
The Brazilians are fond of Whiteness, but they were not tolerant of Yanks acting out, destroying property and publicly lying about their country.
I’ll be those swimmers were so glad to return to the US where they can get away with anything.
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@ villagewriter
Thanks for a thought provoking view of the Chinese in Africa. Your opinion of their national character provided depth to other articles I’ve read about China.
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@Afrofem: Agreed, I am aware of the Brazillians and their affinity for whiteness I thought about that and like you said I too thought about them being intolerant of the disrespect of Americans in their country.
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@ villagewriter
While I am subjected to the Western media filter I did her a couple (and growing number) of African voices who harshly criticize the Chinese presence and who aren’t under suspicion to be Western mouthpieces. Do you think your observations are Kenya-specific or apply generally for the Africn-Chinese realtions?
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@Kartfortell
I have been following up Chinese involvement in Africa for four years now. My observations are not only limited to Kenya but also to Congo, Ghana, Tanzania, Uganda, South Africa, Angola, Zimbabwe and even outside of the continent in places like Pakistan. Maybe if you can give me those criticisms and I can tackle them adequately and even give your comprehensive links where you can dig out more information.
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Can’t find it now, but if I come across something again, I will post it here.
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@villagewriter
I saw this reprint of a Washington Post article in the New Zealand Herald about Chinese business expanding abroad. The countries the article focused on are in Southeast Asia (Cambodia and Burma). I recognized a theme you touched on (“…The Chinese think most people are lazy…”) and how that plays out elsewhere in Asia. These passages really caught my attention:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11498544
Of course, this is filtered through a news organization with very heavy Western biases.
I do remember reading a Zimbabwean English language newspaper online some time ago where the Zimbabwean employees of Chinese shop owners complained that their bosses treated them “like filth”. Perhaps Chinese expats behave differently in different countries?
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@Afrofem
They do behave differently in different countries but it also depends on the Chinese company. In China most workers are treated like “filth” but hardly complain because of their culture of respecting authority or because they fear the consequences. For instance, there are reports of Chinese workers losing their limbs at work because their employers had not implemented necessary safety precautions. Others suffer from diseases like Cancer and emphysema and are never compensated by the companies they work for.
These companies come to Africa with the same attitude expecting to get away with it. But things usually get heated when they come to Africa because any misbehavior by Chinese companies is quickly reported by the particular African country’s media and media from the West take it and blow it up even more. In Zambia things got too heated when miners clashed with their Chinese bosses http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-19135435. However, things are improving because they have to. China wants to have a good reputation in Africa if it to succeed in pushing out competitors from the west.
Treating workers like filth by the Chinese has more to do with corruption than racism. These incidences are often reported really fast and the necessary action is taken.
While Chinese misbehavior is reported really fast in the media both in the West and in Africa, corporations like Glencore (Anglo-Swiss mining company) get away with the same kind of behavior. It makes ridiculous profits mining in Zambia, mistreats its workers but you will hardly see that reported in major news networks in Europe or the USA. Also look at diamond mining companies like De Beers (connected to London and Israel), which thought Zimbabwe will forever remain its cash-cow but then Mugabe happened.
https://www.crikey.com.au/2014/10/07/glencores-ugly-tax-rorts-have-real-consequences/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj45ufRkNfOAhVpJMAKHblzA_4QFggzMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.waronwant.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FWarOnWant_ZambiaTaxReport_web.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE_oPQksbdv3EcAzpADZhFtay742g&sig2=RFeqaA2XKs_FMDPoyvPO-g&bvm=bv.129759880,d.d24
Glencore is just the tip of the iceberg. These Western corporations learned how to effectively rob people in the west from their activities in third world countries in the 60s and 70s. They are part of the reason why countries like Congo are extremely poor despite their wealth in resources.
The Chinese do not know Africans and most of what they know they learn from watching movies and from the Wests news networks. But things are changing (fingers crossed).
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@villagewriter
Thanks for the information. I really liked the .pdf about Zambia. I have only scanned it so far, I will have to read it more closely later.
I agree that the Global North (Europe, North America, Middle East and Asia) have all tried to suck Africa dry of resources such as people, minerals, fish, water and land. Sometimes I wonder how just how long Northern economies would last if they could not extract wealth from Africa and had to pay “market” prices to Africans for resources they currently loot.
I can’t tell you how many times in a given month I read some European or Euro-American complain about immigration from Africa and the Global South. I think about how blissfully ignorant they are about where their elevated standard of living really originates…upon whose shoulders they stand.
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@Afrofem
Had they been paying market prices for resources, Congo would have the largest number of billionaires and their middle class would be quite large. A wealthy Congo would mean a wealthy Southern, Eastern and West Africa because their citizens would be investing in all the other African countries.
“I can’t tell you how many times in a given month I read some European or Euro-American complain about immigration from Africa and the Global South. I think about how blissfully ignorant they are about where their elevated standard of living really originates…upon whose shoulders they stand.”
I almost gag every time I watch interviews where Marie Le pen complains about refugees and how they are destroying “French culture”. I bet if she gets to power, she will not let go of the countries in Africa that actually feed her country’s greedy elite. Since they impoverish nations all over the world; they deserve every refugee that comes to their door-there is no short-cut out of this.
The other day when the British were voting for Brexit some old people there were reminiscing about the good old days of the British Empire. They want it back and they think brexit will give it back to them. So, they do not want refugees but they want their country to continue interfering in other countries’ economies and politics, which creates refugees.
Where on earth did this culture of action without consequences pervade and dominate their thinking. Action always leads to reaction.
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@Villagewriter
Thank you do much for providing information. I saw it and thought it best to ask someone who lives there.
@taotesan
No worries. I think it is a subject that greatly needs to be discussed, so I will patiently await your response. I am a little leary of the Chinese help, but as villagewriter pointed out, the media can and does twist the situation.
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Abagond
Reckon you should do a post about Leslie Jones and all the abuse she has endured.
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http://www.cbc.ca/books/2016/08/2016-hugo-award-winners.html
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@Herneith
Thanks for sharing that link re: the Hugo Awards.
I wonder if the White Supremacist crazies will crawl out of the woodwork at the Nebula awards this year in response?
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@ Herneith
Awesome! Thanks.
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I wonder if the White Supremacist crazies will crawl out of the woodwork at the Nebula awards this year in response?
Probably. This is why I have cut down on white science fiction and fantasy.
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Great post on alt-right Abagond
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I may be wrong for saying this but I hope the post on the alt-right doesn’t result in a flood of trolls. I don’t think I’m able to deal with 101 definitions of the word racist etc….
What I really want to know is Whether or not anyone has done a study to see if the kind of hatred you see expressed in these groups is genetic.
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@Omnipresent: You beat me to it i was going to ask Abagond to do a post on the attack of Leslie Jones. I am no fan of Jones’s brand of comedy but i feel she doesn’t deserve this kind of harassment. I read Homeland Security has gotten involved.
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@munubantu
and
@sharinair
I should have a responses to you tomorrow night.
@ villagewriter
Excellent commentary!
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@ Sharinair
Firstly, thank you for provoking thought and providing opportunity for exchange and solidarity.
Secondly, humble apologies for delayed response: teenage daughter had used all the wi-fi! and part of life ….
My response to you will be very long, not to clobber you over the head with statistics and detailed analysis of African-Sino trade relations though, but with a foregrounding of the elephant in the room- US neo-colonialism and imperialism before China can be accused of the same thing.
This opinion piece will fall short of providing you with detail of African-Sino trade relations except to touch on some overlap between US intervention and Chinese presence in these countries: South Africa, Zimbabwe, Dijibouti and the Congo.
The author’s solidarity with African brothers and sisters is noted. Yet, he comes across (inadvertantly) as a western apologist. He would have done better to balance his wrong diagnosis of Chinese presence in Africa by researching and also writing about the the imperialist stranglehold and military domination of the USA in many countries in Africa.
Also, this( my) piece might fall short as many articles I had researched (and have not used) including, supposedly an African for the Guardian was pro-western propaganda and the pro-Chinese propaganda and I feel I am unable to provide a balanced synthesis (from an African perspective). If I have to read one more time-the 9th that the “Chinese had sent 900 doctors to Africa and have since treated 180 million HIV and Aids patients”- this astronomical outrageous thumbsuck provided by a western liberal and China is ” sensitive to the importance of sound environmental practices for building strong relations with Africa”, I am going to scream. Even searching for an “African perspective of China in Africa” brought up a thesis written by two Oxford polititcal science students explaining that whilst Africans might find Chinese economic presence in Africa problematic, they would rather prefer Western presence!
(If you would like me to provide any links- pro-Chinese and pro- American, let me know.)
Two essential and seminal books on Africa’s underdevelopment is Walter Rodney’s ‘How Europe Underdeveloped Africa’ and Kwame Nkrumah’s ‘Neo-colonialism.”
I might break up my writing in 5-6 posts.
Apologies,Sharinair, in advance for any typographical errors.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Still the Heart of Darkness, Iron Fists and Velvet Gloves And
Enter the Dragon
Part One:
As an African, I would like to plant the seed to African Americans and Africans on other continents that everything in Africa- its land, its resourses is the natural birth-right of all Africans. It belongs to all Africans. Not EuroAmericans.
As you know, imperialism, whether European or American changes face- from the naked racism of the late 19th century and 20th centuries to the 1984 speak of the 21st so that colonialism is perpetuated, talking about “freedom” and “democracy” all the while dressed as neo-colonialism.
Africa’s pivotal role in the imperialist world economy (the so-called ‘developed world’ or ‘first world’ countries’) over the last few centuries has been the target of the most viscious and thorough campaign of mischaracterization and misinformation in history.
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@ Sharinair
Part of my comment to you is in moderation.
@ munubantu
I am experiencing Murphy’s Law: my comment to you has just disappeared.(sigh) red-faced.
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I do not think it is an accident that Africa has been kept a mystery to the people of the US by the US, tragically and prismatically distorting the African to African Americans as a deformed character of grotesque proportions whilst giving cover to the most horrific crimes against humanity. The USA’s active ongoing suppression of African history to its African American citizens and its TOTAL DISTORTION of its large reserves of natural resource exploitation and political exploits, continuing in the tradition of European under-development, by interfering with governments who sought independence and it its wake , wanted industrialization. A notable case in point, in the assassination of Patrice Lumumba and installing Mobutu Sese Seko as a brutal despot of which the Congolese people never had any respite since the horrors of Leopold.
How many African Americans know that $1.7 000 000 000 000 from Africa haemorrhaged to the US and its tentacle, IMF, through predatory loans, besides the more than 1 trillion dollars of commodities and assets ? And that is only since the 70’s. The US imperialism took place post WW11.
Sharinair , the footprints/jackboots of US expansion is devastating . From the bio-warfare, using Ebola as weapon of bio-warfare to extract diamonds in the Congo, Equatorial Guinea and Sierra Leonne. Do you think they forgot about the chicken-pox blankets used against the First People? To the expansion of drone operations in Dijibouti (where China has deployed 1000’s of troops), economic terrorism sanctions against 13 countries, including Zimbabwe, to co-operation with the apartheid state with its development of nuclear weapons, in the form of 6 atom bombs and bio-warfare in eugenicist program (AIDS) with collaboration of South African and American scientists, politicians enabling the world’s largest criminal multinational mining cartel to avoid paying reparations to miners (and latterly, Barack Obama ‘diplomatically’ negotiating with the present SA government to completely destroy any nuclear development. This is an nth of the US’s footprint.
What I think is that the USA’s imperialist domination in extracting resources and domination of Africa (and the world) in part ,furthers the instruments of its domestic terrorism and mass incarceration of African Americans and other population groups.
Without an apology or reparations from the Europeans, the British and its big ugly baby, the US, for the MAAFA to any African, these western parasites have continued to thwart, undermine, overthrow African people’s independence with velvet glove tactics ( hard-core poverty pornography, Hollywood, African American Hip hop, radio and television , religion, etc) and iron -fist tactics –(predatory loans on poor countries, eugenics, military intervention, etc,) through the US Centre for Diseases Control, WHO, IMF, World Bank, CIA, MI6, Interpol, etc.
contd.
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@Sharinair
My other post to you is moderaton again. I am going to call it a night (its 22h15 here) and continue with a post touching on African-Sino relations tomorrow night.
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(https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/nkrumah/neo-colonialism/introduction.htm)
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@Abagond: With all the talk of NFL Colin Kaepernick and his refusal to stand during the national anthem. I am just learning how racist the writer of the national anthem Francis Scott Key and the history of the nation’s most beloved patriotic iconic songs. Would you consider doing a post on the racist history of the Star Spangled Banner?
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RIP Gene Wilder loved him in the movies
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Annually, more than $200 000 000 000 is looted from the continent. And the US/ Western imperialist, rams down the throats strangulating debt, known euphemistically as aid, in the region $134 000 000 000 and all the US , with the World Bank and IMF, the tentacles of plutocratic and oligarchic hegemony, lock Africans in a cycle of debt ( misnomer – aid) and poverty, , whereby education, social reform programs, infrastructure, land reform/ reclamation programs, have to be cut to guarantee repayment of criminal usurious debt.
The complexities of African states which the West has underdeveloped and exploited and the socio-economic and political climate where the West has rammed neo-liberalism economic policy down the throats of newly independent states, the Chinese have not created and do not operate on the western imperialist colonial model.
The double-edged nature of Chinese foreign policy indeed bears hall-marks of imperialism, but it is not neo-colonialism .
One of (my) many reasons for wariness and criticism, though , of China in Africa (South Africa, esp. in the wake of uncompensated billions of Rands of labour restitution- mining from white cartels) that Chinese presence in the mining sector, can exacerbate , not ameliorate the long Western tradition of super-exploitation of labour and the practice of resource extraction- e.g. Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, whilst exporting manufactured goods of varying quality, severely undermining the local textile industries, namely: South Africa, Lesotho, Nigeria. One other concern is its growing market share in financial institutions, i.e. banking. Possibly then down the line, when major Chinese dominance in the banking sector is realised, could one be concerned.
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@ Mary
You read my mind!
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@taotesan
“the World Bank and IMF, the tentacles of plutocratic and oligarchic hegemony, lock Africans in a cycle of debt ( misnomer – aid) and poverty…whereby education, social reform programs, infrastructure, land reform/ reclamation programs, have to be cut to guarantee repayment of criminal usurious debt.”
Very good point. A lot of people don’t know that nearly every African country, upon achieving independence set up national health care programs, schools, state owned factories and communications networks.
The IMF/World Bank would go to the leaders of the new countries and convince them through a combination of sweet talk, bribery and threats to take on debt to build roads, bridges, dams and harbor improvements.
When the deals were done, the infrastructure projects (if they were done at all) were done by foreign companies and foreign workers. Those projects were employment programs for people in the Global North at the expense of the people in each African country. They were stuck with the bill and it has cost the people dearly over the decades.
Thanks for pointing that out, taotesan.
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@taotesan: I have been reading about what is happening at the Praetorian High School. Oppressing the young girls about their natural hair. Telling those girls to straighten their hair. That just makes me so angry, those Afrikaners trying to force their European beauty standards on young black girls.
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Hey, Abagond.
Did you know that Japan had a Black Samurai? His name was Yasuke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke
Maybe you can do a post on him?
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@Mary
I have actively controlled my anger and sadness this week and exploded today with a government official when the headmistress was escorted away by police because she ‘was afraid for her safety’ when the girls wanted to hand her a memorandum detailing their grievances.
[ sub-text: white woman afraid of Black teenagers]
I am decompressing now, from a very emotional and traumatic day.
I was with my daughter and all the girls from her school who were protesting in supposedly a top school in Cape Town. Pretoria Girls High had sparked and emboldened the girls to protest.
What has emerged from many of the stories are human rights abuses, systematic racism and a deliberate plan by her school principal and management to sabotage their academic progress, failing many of them in mathematics science. In a book loosely reminiscent of the apartheid era, girls are given demerits and detention for speaking isiXhosa which is most of the girls’ home language, in and out of school.
The school teachers and principal are white and the majority of students, Black. Many of the of girls were crying. I am also still in a state of shock, of the systematic racism when everything has been put together , a larger picture of intentional academic sabotage ,victimization of students speaking out against racist behavior of the staff and other matters, emerges. I felt I had stepped right back into apartheid. Actually it never ended, it has just morphed into something else.
Charges of racism and victimization have been lodged many times over the years with the Department of Education controlled by the DA ( white dominated party) and nothing has been done about it.
In a school assembly this week, which my daughter missed, the principal likened the students to warthogs and gorillas!
Girls are subjected to white teachers measuring their hair without their permission, told it looks like birds nests, having it patted down, told to control their ‘unruly’ hair, not allowed certain hairstyles, a ruler was used to measure the girls hair and in some cases their tests and results are dependent on them obeying these rules and basically forcing them to straighten their natural hair with chemicals.
It is not only the code of conduct that blatantly forces Black girls to erase their own expression and identity, it is the dehumanizing ugly racist way the teachers have enforced their rules. The sheer outrageousness of white women telling African children they are are not allowed to wear ‘exotic’ hair.
One girl who attended school the day after her house burnt down, was subjected to ongoing victimization because she had not ‘fixed’ her hair.
A litany of other abuses besides hair and languages issues were brought up by past students, who came to the school for moral and practical support.
The MEC of the educational department had taken down the grievances and on Monday, parents will have meeting.
The school principal is not being suspended as yet but she won’t in school on Monday.
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@taotesan: That is just reprehensible so really apartheid never really left. So the white South Afrikaners are still the beasts they always were? I thought Mandela fixed all of that. But what do I know, Obama can’t fix the mess here in America.
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@Mary Burrell
Black South Africans forgave people who never asked for their forgiveness. The white racist and entitled minority still have the land and still have most of the wealth.
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@Taotesan
I love listening to isiXhosa being spoken (I can’t understand a word of it though); I wish I could speak the language. I have learned to do the clicks from YouTube so far.
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For villagewriter:
Qongqothwane by Mama Africa
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3YOBUKN58)
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“I love listening to isiXhosa being spoken (I can’t understand a word of it though); I wish I could speak the language. I have learned to do the clicks from YouTube so far.”
@ Mary
this one is for you:
Trevor Noah speaking isiXhosa to Stephen Fry on QI.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baEiWB2aM9Y)
I would like to continue what villagewriter has told you, but I am not the heartspace to write about it in any detail as yet. Forgive me.
A short answer is that apartheid has morphed into something else, papered over by Archbishop Tutu’s Rainbow Nation rhetoric and Nelson Mandela’s obsequious kowtowing to neoliberalism. We were sold out in a negotiated settlement to plutocrats, where the whites still have even more economic power than they had during apartheid.
We were sold the biggest lie. The ‘revoution’ was an amputated handover of limited political power to the ANC.
Not dissimilar from the trajectory from Jim Crow to the Prison Industrial complex in the USA.Still alike in many ways to israel without settler colonialist occupying military presence. And very similar, if not worse, to the socio-economic problems, to Brazil.
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^in Brazil
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@LoM
“This is a site that discusses issues of race, ethnicity, and colonization, including the psychological form thereof and the internalization of racist stereotypes.”
I know how much you resist this but, the Irish wherever they are on the globe today are full members of the White Supremacist Oppressors Club. Ditto for the Jews. Ditto for all formerly oppressed European ethnic groups (with the exception of the Roma who are still oppressed in Europe).
Pride in your heritage is an admirable thing. Yes, there were horrific episodes in Irish history where their close neighbor (England) brutalized them. However, when your ancestors emigrated to the US (or Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa, etc.) they made a conscious decision to blend in and become White. They worked hard abusing non-White people to earn those White points.
Could it be that your single-minded focus on “Irishness” is a way of distancing yourself from the crimes of Whites/Europeans? Perhaps it is a way of carving out a distinct identity because the cloak of Whiteness your forebears craved is suffocating and bland to you?
From a distance, the lives and struggles of non-European (Black, Asian, Latino, Native American, Arab, etc.) people seem exciting and interesting. They still have a (somewhat) clear idea of their heritage and seem unified in a struggle against oppression. That struggle is against people who look like you, so you distance yourself by insisting an alternate identity.
While some struggles of the Irish for self-determination still echo in the present day, that song has been sung and the “fat lady” has exited the stage. The struggles of non-European people are still in Act 2 of this global opera. Those are the primary issues of race, ethnicity and colonization that many commenters in this forum are focused on at this point in time. Perhaps someday you will respect our point of view, our pain and our struggles in the present.
Listening and empathy are powerful skills to cultivate.
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@LoM
We may well have to agree to disagree on many points, but I appreciated your candor in explaining (and confirming) why you emphatically reject the term: White.
There is a White history, White heritage and White culture…it’s called American history, heritage and culture. They may not be pleasing to you, but they do exist.
As an aside:
I recently started reading The Scotch-Irish: A Social History by James G. Leyburn. Written in 1962, Leyburn covers the history of the Lowland Scots from pre-Roman Times to their emigration to the Ulster Plantation and subsequent move to Virginia, Pennsylvania and North Carolina.
I’m only in the first third of the book now, but three things about his writing are striking:
1. His description about the authoritarianism inherent in Lowland Scotch culture and how it manifests in both Northern Ireland and the US where large numbers of Scotch-Irish descendants reside (the Middle Atlantic Seaboard and the South).
2. I finally understand the genesis of “The Troubles” that specifically plague Northern Ireland.
3. I was shocked at how Leyburn glosses over the intense suffering of the Irish “natives”. His attitudes are similar to the callous disregard many people in this country have for the genocide of Native Americans—-or the modern murders of African Americans by the State.
As I progress through the book, I will let you know what I learn. There may be some common ground there after all. Who knows?
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LoM
I’ve decided I don’t particularly feel like conforming to how other people group me.
Neither I guess do PoC but for them, from some white people it is often a case of judge first, and then impose our preconceived stereotypes on you to justify our intital response to you.
It was not a coincidence that this was shortly after the shootings of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling, the resulting Dallas killings, and it was the very day Drumpf’s RNC began. I’ve tried to be a proud American all my life. I’ve taken pride in the U.S. – including one of my ancestors, in the Irish Brigade – fighting to end slavery in the Civil War. I’ve immersed myself in Civil War history, made it my life almost, to facilitate this cognitive process. But in mid-July, something just snapped. With a Klan-backed race nationalist getting the presidential nomination for a major political party and cops shooting innocent people all around, “American” sounded like a raw deal
So you have spent your life being privy to and accepting your white privilege and this year you snapped and now you are trying to tell PoC who have faced blatant and implicit racism the majority of their lives that you actually have something in common with them?
Over time, the effects of psychological colonialism and the effort spent resisting it will take a serious toll. I’m sure many black commenters here can back me up on that
Did you re-read what you stated here? – it sounds patronising. Of course many black commenters can understand this – from the overseers on the cotton fields to the modern day Uncle Toms’, PoC have seen themselves and their nearest and dearest subjected to this for 100’s of years!!!!! I appreciate that the Irish too have their history of oppression however, do you not notice that most of the injustice you speak about happened historically. This oppression and racism is affecting PoC RIGHT NOW!
I was bullied at school over being Irish, quite a bit. I wrote about it in a comment on this blog a long time ago, although I can’t remember where. But it was horrible. I got every stereotype in the book thrown at me, my name mocked, my Catholicism mocked (and I don’t even agree with the Church hierarchy on a lot of social issues). It didn’t help that I wore glasses and wasn’t good at sports, preferring to read Tolkien on the swing during recess. Point being, I’ve faced all that. So I know how that sh-t wears you down.
Bullying and being made fun of for being different is not on. This was rife in the 70’s when I was at school due to lots of immigration from countries of the British Empire. This was down to their different accents, perceived different culture, and of course primarily about the difference in their colour. You cant change who you were born to but, and I am probably gonna pi$s you off here, change your Irish forename/surname, don’t discuss/tell people, your religion take off your glasses and wear contact lenses and hey presto you are assimilated and are just like any other average joe – do you think that a PoC could do that in the same way you potentially could and be accepted?
You know what? I understand your current position and your need to expand and find people who may understand your recent epiphany but by constantly comparing everything to your idealism about Irish nationalism and worse, acting as though Irish historical issues put you on par with PoC who are still experiencing being treated badly due to their skin colour, you risk effectively alienate the very people you are trying to reach out to.
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Why Is White America Ignoring the Epidemic of “White-On-White Crime”?
http://countercurrentnews.com/2016/08/white-white-america-control/
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Mirkwood,
“I maintain that psychological colonialism that the Irish, including Irish in the U.S., do experience”
You are creating a phantom. If you were truly affected by internalized oppression you would be doubting yourself and in severe cases that can lead to self hate. Non whites who are affected by internalized racism have an unconscious acceptance of a racial hierarchy. Nothing you have written displays any of that. Your obsession with Irish history is your own voluntary choice. It gives your life meaning but it is not healing you from an internalized scar.
In your case your ego is fine. That’s has been demonstrated by how you write on this blog. Your ego wasn’t damaged because you were born Irish nor has Irish history had any negative affect on your sense of well being. You think your experience is comparable to non whites and others who have suffered oppression but I believe its imagined.
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LoM
The only thing you take our of my comments is ‘telling you to pass as English ‘ deliberately distorting what I have said when you know full well there are other kinds of white people than English. I am sure I even mentioned white Irish in one post (though honestly, that sounds like a stretch to me) but i guess you are going to ignore that!
I also asked whether a PoC taking the same steps to assimilate as you could have done would be as successful as you – would be interested to hear your answer there and your explanation as to why?
Michael Jon Barker comment is spot on. That you may have developed a personal understanding of how it feels to be treated in an unjust way is a good basis to empathise with others but let’s be honest, for you it is and can only ever be a tiny glimpse in to the daily reality for PoC.
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LoM
On top of that, my parents did not instill any sense of ethnic heritage in me; in fact, I think they were and are ashamed of it. My mom never mentioned Irishness at all, although she is mixed heritage, so that may be the reason. And I swear my dad is actively self-loathing. He’s sworn up and down that the Famine wasn’t genocide, that Irish-Americans are fully assimilated (and if some aren’t, they should be), told me to get over what he calls my strange hangup on Ireland, used the word “micks” only half-jokingly, and expressed contempt for the IRA.
Do you see here, your parents and you had a choice. The choice of whether to embrace and acknowledge your Irish heritage or not. Meanwhile, you were being seen as fully assimilated ‘white’ Americans with an Irish heritage.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I’ve mentioned before that I have some Irish ancestory, although not as much as you, and that I largely agree with you on the history of the Irish and their oppression by the English on that side of the Atlantic, both historical and ongoing.
I do to some degree understand the journey of self-discovery and self-definition that you are going through. Most white people in the U.S., regardless of their ethnic background, have a very poor understanding of the distinction between the English and the Celtic peoples of Great Britain.
But I would suggest — and have suggested before — that Abagond’s blog is not the appropriate place for you to be exploring that journey of self-discovery in-depth and with lengthy discourses.
Look at how quickly you flared up on the Star-Spangled Banner thread, “yelling” in all caps, demanding that people not call you British when they hadn’t, insisting that they not call you white when you are. That was an over-the-top reaction directed at POC. Why should they have to tiptoe around your fragile white ego? Do they not get enough of that in real life?
The Irish are white, LoM. They may be persecuted and oppressed by the English, but they are still white. You will always be white, you will always be male. You can’t change these things, only how you use the privileges that they accord you.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
As I read over these remarks, I keep coming back to this comment that Afrofem made:
“Listening and empathy are powerful skills to cultivate.”
I often feel that in your comments on this blog you spend far more time and energy insisting that POC listen to and empathize with you and your Irishness than you spend working on listening to them and empathizing with them.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I won’t get on the “Irish are white” bandwagon. I just won’t.”
All right. But could you refrain from bringing it up so often? Could you listen to what others are saying without reflecting back through your Irish lens? Instead of trying to draw parallels with your own experience, could you focus more on their statements, their experiences, and their lived reality?
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@LoM
The decade of your twenties is a time of learning, exploration and trying new identities. I can relate to your search for meaning.
Hopefully in the coming decades of your life you will begin to see that life is not all black and white——there are many shades of gray. You will begin to see and experience complexity. You will observe contradictions in your life and other peoples lives (for example people who are passionate about veganism because they don’t want to harm animals, but have no problem with violence against outcast groups of people in their own society).
Sometimes it is easy to forget just how young you really are…and like the rest of us how much growth is ahead of you. I urge you to listen, read and learn about the lives of others in their own words.
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LoM
Afrofem refers to your youth and that you are in your twenties. By my early to mid 20’s I was a father a couple of times over so perhaps have to concede that maturity differs however, your insistence over not being ‘English ‘ is i suspect, a ruse you use to detract from questions and help you not respond to things you are uncomfortable with.
You appear to be a well read individual who has a strong sense of right and wrong and a strong comprehension of injustice. For that reason it is frustrating that you refuse to heed the comments of others regarding the saturation of responses that always link to Irish Ness. When you immerse yourself in this way I think you are in fact impeding your learning potential. I am an ordinary guy who has been round rhe block a bit and my posing questions to you are to get you to think outside the box. I think you feel ‘got at’ which is not intended to be the case.
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Leave him alone, he’s just a kid!
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A statistic I wasn’t aware of. Native Americans are being killed by the police at higher rates then any other group including Blacks.
The “business” behind foster kids incentives removing children from Native American homes.
“Native American children are also victims of the state as a recent report from TruthOut pointed out earlier this month. According to the report, in South Dakota, Indigenous children make up 15 percent of the child population, but comprise more than half the children in foster care.
“In order to profit off of the kidnapping of these children, South Dakota has claimed 100% of its foster children as ‘special needs’ for the past ten years in order to reel in extra money. The child “protective” system in South Dakota is incentivized by a $79,000 bonus per Native child.”
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-killing-native-americans-higher-rate-race-talking/
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I’m sure Abagond is working on something but the largest gathering of Native Americans to happen in decades is going on in North Dakota in opposition to the pipe line.
Native Americans from across the Western part of the U.S. are travelling to Red Warrior camp to show their support and bring supplies.
The Oil company has hired private security which include attack dogs. The last few days these dogs have been unleashed on these peaceful protesters. The media is reporting that it was the protesters that incited the violence but video tape and pictures taken by the protesters themselves tell a different story.
(https://www.facebook.com/diana.heideman/media_set?set=a.10209045072737163.1073741844.1028144629&type=3&pnref=story)
Their has been a lot of video/pictures posted up on FB by protestors who are there. Their FB pages are being shut down.
On my FB page some commenters asked Sean Liberty why they weren’t armed.
“We would be wasted in no time..”
“Wounded knee in ’73 made the Bundys look like cubscouts smile emoticon:) there was significant gunfire back and forth. Natives are not considered citizens like the Bundys were.”
“We are subhuman in the eyes of the state, because of our free spirit which they have yet to break. We only ceded the wars because we wanted peace but in the end, peace led to more suffering and further enslavement..”
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@Michael Jon Barker
“Their FB pages are being shut down”.
Why I never trust social media, especially FB.
On my FB page some commenters asked Sean Liberty why they weren’t armed. “We would be wasted in no time..”
So true. The Bundys point weapons at federal agents with little consequence. Native Americans protest peacefully and their lives are threatened.
Thanks for sharing this, MJB.
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Also note that Irish-descended Americans no longer suffer any structural or institutional discrimination whatsoever. There’s not even any lingering social bigotry to be concerned about and if there was, it would have ZERO effect on the Irish-descended American person’s ability to live life free and unencumbered.
Irish-descended Americans have been full-fledged card-carrying members of the Great White Collective™ for over a century.
So to see Lord of Mirkwood use his Irish background as a way to commiserate with black commenters on the issue of social and institutional oppression is not only amusing, but depressing and infuriating at the same time. The whole idea of the Irish being the prototypical “White N****rs” loses weight the moment those same folks are welcomed into the white collective with open arms.
“Indian removal” is still ongoing, something that many white Americans wish they could do to blacks in much larger numbers.
Imagine the collective relief of whites when the black population gets whittled down to a more reasonable 2% or less.
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Time to do a post on Philippine president Duterte.
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Did you get that this clumsy e-mail (translated) caused a riot in the Netherlands?
(There is a LOT of background to it)
“Dear Students,
You may have seen that a new cleaner has been appointed.
That is Mr. M.E. Lunga (pronounce as Loonga)”.
That this man is black you have seen too.
He came originally from Angola (Africa), but lives in our country since 2000.
He is married, has four nice children, lives in our city and is very church going. He has been raised Christian by his parents.
Like every father he wants to provide for his family. We have been able to appoint him as care taker of the interior. He is very glad with that.. We hope he will feel at home soon at school.
It seemed good to share this with you. It happens to be not that usual that such a dark man is appointed.”
Your opinion?
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@Omnipresent
I’ve read a lot of information on Black motherhood, but very little on Black fatherhood. It is usually filtered in corporate media and rarely do Black fathers speak for themselves. If you are willing, could you answer this question:
What has been the greatest challenge for you as a Black father?
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Duterte is doing what tinpot dictators usually do when they want to deflect attention from their nations: talk sh*t about other nations and their leaders.
If I was Obama, I wouldn’t give that clown the time of day.
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@Afrofem
Apologies for giving you or anyone the impression that I am black. Closest I would say is that I am other. I am married and my wife is not white. Funnily enough I too have Irish heritage which is partly why LoM post resonated with me. I also grew up and hung around with predominantly afro Caribbean descended kids so my ‘experiences’ have been through those that I care about and love.
All tgat said now, I appreciate my view of fatherhood is not what you are seeking
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@Omnipresent
Fair enough.
What has been the greatest challenge for you as a young twentysomething father?
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@Mack Lyons
The situation in the Phillipines is a lot more complex than the media would have us believe. Black Agenda Radio had a segment on Duterte recently that makes for interesting listening. The segment can be heard here:
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/7/8/c/78c2cc134463fdad/BlackAgendaRadio_20160829.mp3?c_id=12598784&expiration=1473219052&hwt=c1dbf8b311e60f3ac6529bfe05b169db
43:48 to 56:00
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@Afrofem
I plan to listen to your radio link, but I agree with your reply to Mack Lyons that the situation in the Philippines is indeed rather complex, and has a history going back many decades. There is a large contingent in the Philippines who believe that they do not need to be a puppet of the US and can do their own bidding, even with China.
Besides that, he still enjoys a very high popularity rating domestically.
Having said that, those Tagalog obscenities do grate upon one’s ears. They should not be part of diplomatic discourse.
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Another spin on Duterte (local Philippines press):
Palace: ‘Rock star’ Duterte an emerging influential leader in ASEAN
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/580519/news/nation/palace-rock-star-duterte-an-emerging-influential-leader-in-asean
I actually think he is gaining admirers across ASEAN even outside the Philippines. They like his boldness.
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The Stono Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stono_Rebellion
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@jefe
“There is a large contingent in the Philippines who believe that they do not need to be a puppet of the US and can do their own bidding, even with China.”
Good point. ASEAN members are weighing their future options carefully. Even Australia finds itself on a tightrope—–remain in the “five eyes” alliance or draw even closer to China. I just read an article about Australia’s dilemma this morning:
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2016/09/rally-going-sell-us-alliance-property-prices/
I hope the Philippines finds a way to plot its own course this century.
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Air China inflight magazine on flight from Beijing to London advising tourists.
Air China magazine London race slur sparks anger
(http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-37298803)
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Native Americans who were leading a prayer protest against the expansion of a fracked oil pipeline through their land were attacked with police dogs and pepper spray.
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@ Paige
The DOJ has stopped the construction of the pipeline!!!
http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/09/nodapl-standing-rock-dakota-pipeline/
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@Paige
Yes, the behavior of the pipeline goons ignited a prairie fire of resistance from other Native American groups and environmentalists. Support poured in from around the country—–even though facebook and most of the media tried to squelch the story.
Washington Post had this update a couple of days ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/showdown-over-oil-pipeline-becomes-a-national-movement-for-native-americans/2016/09/06/ea0cb042-7167-11e6-8533-6b0b0ded0253_story.html?tid=hybrid_experimentrandom_1_na
The DOJ action is probably a delaying action. I’m sure they want the momentum against the pipeline to dissipate, because that energy could affect other anti-fossil fuel activism.
It was both cruel and stupid to attack the protestors/protectors.
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@ Afrofem @ Paige
The White House press corps never asked Obama about the pipeline – and yet a student from Laos did!!!
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@Abagond
Love your new header!
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A Morton County, N.D. arrest warrant has been issued for Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! for “misdemeanor trespass” for entering private land to film the violence against the protectors/protestors.
http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/north-dakota/4112649-reporter-who-documented-guard-dogs-charged-trespassing-pipeline-protest
Also under arrest warrants are Jill Stein and Ajamu Baraka of the Green Party.
Over thirty local Native American activists were also arrested (for being bitten and pepper sprayed?).
Not one of the violent humans or dogs who attacked the protectors/protestors has been arrested or been the subject of arrest warrants.
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Afrofem
Thanks! Me too!
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I have been hesitant about post this, but how do people feel about the Nate Parker situation?
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@Sharinair:
Awfully convenient that a Black Man made what may very well be the most important film of his career is now bogged down in a scandal that really shouldn’t be a scandal. He was acquitted and he and the woman had consensual sex.
I see it as a media lynching.
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@jefe
You do apologize for Kiwi and his anti-black attitudes. Prime example when he was on open thread telling African commenters about how it is in Africa. Instead of correcting Kiwi or even saying much of anything to him you jumped down the African commenters throat instead. Which is why I found it hilarious that you should chastise MJB for calling him out. Let one commenter say anything about Asians and the “let me correct you” stance is taken.
Secondly a lot of people see his comments as anti-black and have called him out on it. Telling black people they are oppressors because Obama bombed other countries is no different from the same rhetoric I see being spoken by white racist on other social media outlets. They call it speaking the truth. He has pulled out black crime the same as randy or Biff would and the list goes on with nothing more than watching the excuse of….”well it is not anti-black per se.” Hell the way he speaks about Asian women and hapas is bit anti-Asian in my eyes.
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@W. Goldenwolf
The story has been out for a while, but has recently gotten mainstream attention. I don’t think it is a coincidence, but I also don’t think he is innocent. For said female to commit suicide indicates she was dealing with some sort of trauma.
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At arts in the heart listening to this racist b**ch talk is nauseating.
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Hi Sharina,
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
I never saw myself as supporting Kiwi’s tit for tat or ad hominem black attacks (I certainly don’t) but I appreciate your explaining that it appeared that way at times.
Also, expressing a disagreement with a viewpoint from a commenter based in Africa is not the same as being anti-black. I think the subject of the disagreement I expressed had nothing to do with anything anti-black or anti-African, but about how one gets one’s news about China. What I know about China’s propaganda machine, I am very wary about that information.
I thought I agreed with MJB for calling Kiwi out. Where did I chastise him?
for example, regarding
I disagreed with that rhetoric as well, but I saw it more as him engaging in a spat with someone who was doing the reverse, and I wanted no part in that exchange. But at the same time, I saw that as a personal spat (ie, online blogosphere behaviour), but not as something specifically anti-black.
I also do not agree with him that an Asian who feels aligned with black political interests is a type of sellout. But I don’t see that as an anti-black stance either. Yet I might agree that he has a point about whether it is appropriate to use one’s stance on specific black oriented political interests as a gauge to determine whether one is anti-racist or not. I can disagree with many or most things he says and still find that he makes some valid arguments from time to time.
I really don’t see how that is defending him against his alleged anti-black stances. There is a difference between being anti-black and anti-racist.
You might also recall that Kiwi hurled many personal spats specifically to me attacking me for my position, or even ad hominem attacks on my personal identity. Then later, he might change his position and attack someone else. So, I don’t know where he stands exactly, but I have learned not to make it personal.
Even your good friend grojo, whom you try to avoid too. He has a knack for digging up facts, but I find he generally does not argue in good faith. I can agree with a factoid he brought up without necessarily needing to discuss it with him.
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@abagond,
Can you do a post on those if you haven’t already? Some Russian and Chinese programmers created an artificial intelligence program to judge beauty based on deep learning. The results were almost all white people.
http://www.businessinsider.com/beauty-contest-judged-by-ai-winners-2016-8/#-6
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Abagond,
I’ve noticed that you’ve given always a space in your blog to debate cases of Black Americans killed by the police (armed or unarmed). When the killed individual is a minor such cases seemed to merit even more attention from you.
Given that, I’m surprised that you haven’t spoken yet about the recent Tyree King’s case where, like in Tamir Rice’s case, a minor was killed. See,
(http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/09/15/ohio-police-officer-shoots-kills-13-year-old-bb-gun/90398996/)
Why is that? Didn’t you know about this case?
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@ munubantu
I am very aware of the Tyre King case. I was waiting for it to shake out some since there was little to go on except a police account which could not even get his name right. A post is in the works.
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@Sharina,
I don’t know if you read about the extradition of Taiwanese from Kenya to China a few months ago, but this link gives an insight why I am suspicious about news from China coming out of Kenya, which gave a different version of events. These were followed by forced confessions from the Taiwanese on national mainland chinese television.
Taiwanese “Deported” to China—What’s the Problem?
(https://youtu.be/6XQKz7NcQL0)
The incident was front page news in HK since it was after the bookseller abduction incident where abductees were forced to make televised fake confessions on the mainland. It also makes people nervous that China can abduct anyone they want anywhere in the world to make forced confessions to crimes they did not commit (or for behaviour that is perfectly legal in the jurisdiction they performed it).
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A random question: Was Michel Houellebecq’s book “Submission” relevant in the US/has anyone read it? I found a couple of reviews but no general discussion of it in American media. It become instantly famous in France and (to a lesser degree) in the rest of Western Europe because of its publishing on the day of the Charlie Hebdo attack and its relatied topic.
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@ Kartoffel
The New Yorker had an article on it.
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@Jefe
Thank you for your understanding.
“I never saw myself as supporting Kiwi’s tit for tat or ad hominem black attacks (I certainly don’t) but I appreciate your explaining that it appeared that way at times.”—I don’t think you support it in the sense of agreeing or believing it. However, I do feel at times you excuse him doing. Make it not a big deal so to speak. I get that a lot of the blow back from speaking up is not worth it and I can’t blame anyone from not wanting to say anything, but I also don’t think it should be dismissed as not anti-black or racist.
“Also, expressing a disagreement with a viewpoint from a commenter based in Africa is not the same as being anti-black.”—That was not what I considered anti-black. Disagreements will happen and by no means does that indicate an anti-black attitude. The anti-black attitude came with him feeling he knew more about their country than they did. That he could tell them how it is. This reminds me of the whites who go to a country once and think they “know all about it”.
“What I know about China’s propaganda machine, I am very wary about that information.”—I get that and don’t blame you, but there was at one point that you were telling them not to speak on a country they were not aware of. If I misread or misinterpreted the information let me know. If I need to get a quote so we can see where my confusion is let me know, but that it what I saw in that exchange that really bothered me.
“I thought I agreed with MJB for calling Kiwi out. Where did I chastise him?”—-You felt, atleast that is how I saw it, that it was necessary for him to call out everyone else as well to avoid an argument with Kiwi. Calling out everyone else would not allow for kiwi to face his particular part in the nonsense.
Gro jo and Kiwi have a lot of personal spats and I don’t blame you for not speaking in them. But here is how I look at it, if you are willing to throw any race under the bus to make a point to someone then you simply are no less racist than the many whites who have done so on this blog since day one.
My examples were to convey his anti-black attitudes and were not meant to display how you say nothing or how you excuse. I apologize if it came off that way. However, when you asked Rabab that question, I took it to mean you saw his behavior as not anti-black and were excusing it.
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@ munubantu
Tyre King:
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“Gro jo and Kiwi have a lot of personal spats and I don’t blame you for not speaking in them.”
Gro jo has no “personal” spats with anyone. My comments are always fact based. I sedulously avoided getting “personal” with Kiwi until that proved unavailing, once past that point, I gave him as good as I got.
My disagreements with Jefe have nothing personal about them since they are about China, HK and if the Chinese came to North America before, or after Africans. I was able to educate him on the latter, but he has refused to continue to discuss China and HK with me.
I guess he didn’t like the fact that I knew that the Philippines were more interested in trade with China than persuing some silly imposed ‘arbitration’ over some rocks.
I had the disagreeable habit to point out facts about HK that Jefe doesn’t care to read, such as that 70% of the water HK uses comes from China and the ‘democratic’ rights that Britain saw fit to give to the residents of HK was paid for by the blood of the 1967 martyrs.
Jefe has accused me of being in the pay of China’s troll army! I thought I was just being a pain in the butt just for the fun of pointing out inconvenient facts to somebody who doesn’t like to be contradicted.
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So is Kiwi still commenting on here? I haven’t seen his name on a lot of posts.
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@ Anne
Kiwi shows up occasionally and, as Michael Jon Barker recently put it, “carpet bombs the place.” He comments on a ton of threads and then disappears again for days or weeks.
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@Sharina: That Nate Parker craziness has me rubbing my temples. I think this incident with him and his buddy is pretty disgusting I put Nate Parker in the same box as I put pill Bill Cosby and R. Kelly. I personally will not be supporting this film.
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@Grojo
Sorry, no I did not. I asked you if might be as some of your arguments are like theirs.
Really, please stop replacing all of my arguments with something completely different, and then attacking the argument that I did not make. (ie, making straw men). You did that over and over again, and not just to me.
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@Sharina
I have to look back, but I don’t think I ever did that. I did ask if the commenter had ever been to China, because the nature of the comments did not sound like the person had. I never said that they could not speak about a country they had never been to.
The problem I had was later on, when that commenter claimed that Kiwi had no qualification to speak about a country that he had never been to (ie, Kenya). Yet I remember that that same commenter previously said that she could speak amply about China, a country that she had never been to, because she had read about it in several sources obtainable in her country. Why is it reasonable for her to be able to do that, but not others? (I never said that neither can speak. In fact, I think they can.) As far as I know, Kiwi has not been to Mainland China either. But he has stuff to say about it too.
No, in no certain terms would I excuse anti-black behaviour.
However, I do believe that some of Kiwi’s behaviour is interpreted as being anti-black by some people when I don’t always see it as necessarily anti-black per se. So I do want to understand exactly what behaviour is being interpreted as anti-black to see why people feel that way.
That is why I got so confused when people suggested I was excusing something. Asking which behaviour is considered to be anti-black is not the same as excusing behaviour which is interpreted to be anti-black.
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This so-called “fact” is more by design than by necessity. It is technically a fact (actually over 70%), but as an argument, it is more flimsy than tissue paper.
Singapore (SG) used to get over 80% of its water from Malaysia. Now it is about half. By 2025, they aim to be water independent. That is by policy.
HK used to be much more independent in water before the British colony began to buy water from china (I believe in the 80s) after a couple of droughts. HK gets slightly more rainfall than SG, with mountainous terrain, so it has a much larger potential water cachement area than SG. Added to that a distinctive “cool” winter season, and the amount taken up by plants or evaporation is less. HK doesn’t even use all of the water it buys from China, and if it wanted to, could easily reduce the dependency to a lower amount, even to zero as SG is trying to do. Even if they ran low, they could always buy the water they need.
Almost all the rivers in the Pearl River delta are polluted. It might be in HK’s best interest to become more water independent to safeguard the security of its water supply.
China wants HK to be resource dependent on it. In that way, it can control it. Being resource independent would give the place more leverage in seeking more political autonomy. Some of the recently elected non-establishment Legco candidates want HK to be more resource independent (ie, food, water, energy). However, China may interpret that as subversive to state interests.
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/20/wage-gap-black-white-americans
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https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/jesus-hasnt-saved-us-young-black-women-returning-ancestral-religions
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‘Long lost” (yeah right, hidden) eyewitness account of the Tulsa Race Massacre:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/long-lost-manuscript-contains-searing-eyewitness-account-tulsa-race-massacre-1921-180959251/?no-ist
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Anyone surprised?
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Jefe wrote: “HK used to be much more independent in water before the British colony began to buy water from china (I believe in the 80s) after a couple of droughts.”
History is not your strong suit is it? You call 300 days of water rationing being independent? Water buys from China began way before the 80s.
“Until 1964 water rationing was a constant reality for Hong Kong residents, occurring more than 300 days per year. The worst crisis occurred in 1963–64 when water was delivered only every 4 days for 4 hours each time…In 1960 Hong Kong began importing water from outside its borders through the Dongjiang – Shenzhen (Dongshen) Water Supply Scheme. After many extensions and upgrades the current system consists of a pipeline from Qiaotou Town of Dongguan to a reservoir in Shenzhen next to Hong Kong. Water imports from the Pearl River have increased gradually from 23 million cubic meters per year (under a 1960 agreement) to 1100 million cubic meters per year (under a fifth agreement signed in 1989). Water imports thus played a crucial role in alleviating Hong Kong’s water crisis, accounting for 70 percent of the territory’s water supply in 1991. The People’s Republic of China has never exercised the “water weapon” in its relationship with Hong Kong. China needed foreign exchange and between 1979 and 1991 alone Hong Kong paid China almost 4 billion Hong Kong Dollars (about US$500 million applying the 1991 exchange rate) for water imports.[2]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Hong_Kong
You are as absurdly wrong about this as you were about the Chinese being in North America before Africans, the wisdom of Philippines imposed “arbitration and the motive for China’s tobacco policy. Yeah, I know, you were just speculating. That’s true of all your comments. What I want to know is what do you really know? People on this blog take you seriously because you are of partial Chinese ancestry and live in HK. I’m not impressed with any of these things. Your comments indicate to me you don’t know much.
According to the Economist, “Hong Kong is clearly less important than in the past. Its GDP has shrunk from 16% of China’s in 1997, the year it was returned to Chinese control, to 3% today.”
What’s the use of HK to China? From the same Economist article we learn the following: “Hong Kong has proved to be more reliable than the mainland as a source of equity financing. Since 2012, Chinese companies have raised $43 billion in initial public offerings in the Hong Kong market, versus just $25 billion on mainland exchanges, according to Dealogic. More than anywhere else in the world, Hong Kong has also provided Chinese companies with access to global capital markets for bond and loan financing. What’s more, Hong Kong is the key hub for investment in and out of China. It accounted for two-thirds of foreign direct investment into China last year, up from 30% in 2005…Over the past five years, the Chinese government has made the city a testing ground for a range of financial reforms: the yuan’s path towards acceptance as a global currency began in Hong Kong in 2009 with an experiment in trade settlement; Hong Kong is also home to the biggest “dim sum” bond market—yuan-denominated debt that is issued overseas; and a soon-to-be-launched programme that will for the first time allow any foreign investor to buy China-listed shares will be conducted via the Hong Kong stock exchange. Hong Kong has been only too willing to host these experiments believing, rightly, that they are crucial to its survival as a thriving financial centre…In short, China has benefited greatly from Hong Kong’s unique status. It is a city that is sealed off from the mainland but closely connected to it; a territory that is fully integrated into the global economy but ultimately controlled by the Communist Party in Beijing. Even with its unique status, however, there is no question where the balance of power lies in Hong Kong’s relationship with China: about half of Hong Kong’s exports end up in China; one-fifth of its bank assets are loans to Chinese customers; and tourism and retail spending, mostly from China, account for 10% of Hong Kong’s GDP. In the opposite direction, the Chinese economy’s direct exposure to Hong Kong is vanishingly small.” The Economist explains
Why Hong Kong remains vital to China’s economy
Sep 30th 2014, 23:50 by S.R.
Did HK become more independent since this was written almost two years ago? I don’t think so.
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“HK gets slightly more rainfall than SG, with mountainous terrain, so it has a much larger potential water cachement area than SG. Added to that a distinctive “cool” winter season, and the amount taken up by plants or evaporation is less. HK doesn’t even use all of the water it buys from China, and if it wanted to, could easily reduce the dependency to a lower amount, even to zero as SG is trying to do. Even if they ran low, they could always buy the water they need. ”
Everything you write should be fact checked. The following statements from Wikipedia articles on water management in Singapore and HK give the lie to your assertions: “Providing an adequate water supply for Hong Kong has always been difficult because the region has few natural lakes and rivers, inadequate groundwater sources (inaccessible in most cases due to the hard granite bedrock found in most areas in the territory), a high population density, and extreme seasonable variations in rainfall. Thus about 70 percent of water demand is met by importing water from the Dongjiang River in neighbouring Guangdong province. In addition, freshwater demand is curtailed by the use of seawater for toilet flushing, using a separate distribution system.[1]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Hong_Kong
“The water resources of Singapore are especially precious given the small amount of densely settled land. Singapore receives an average of 2,400mm of rainfall annually, well above the global average of 1,050mm. The constraint is the limited land area to catch and store the rainfall, and the absence of natural aquifers and lakes.[5] ” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_Singapore
CONCLUSION: JEFE PLAYS FAST AND LOOSE WITH THE FACTS.
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Herneith, nice article on African traditional religion, but I must dissent from this claim because it is nonsense.
“Both Christians and traditional practitioners of religion agree on one thing thing: These practices are powerful, whether you believe in the supernatural or not. Vodou is credited for the success of the Haitian revolution, in which Haitian slaves ousted the French—the only slave uprising that led to the founding of a state free from colonial rule. ”
People who write such stuff like to forget that Boukman’s head ended on a pike. Toussaint Louverture was a bigoted Catholic who persecuted Vodou practitioners and made Catholicism the state religion in his 1801 constitution. As for Christianity being “western”, I’ll only point out to you that Christianity was the religion of Sudan and Ethiopia before any European nation adopted it, and the Congo was Catholic over a century before Vodou was created on St-Domingue. I’m all for people adhering to any or no religion, but let’s not distort history to justify their choices. Last, but not least, how the hell do you get Haitian slaves when the whole point of Haiti was to put an end to slavery “forever”, as Louverture’s constitution put it?
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http://atlantablackstar.com/2016/09/20/trauma-and-poverty-alters-the-brains-of-black-people-and-it-will-take-black-institutions-to-stop-it/
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Herneith, nice article on African traditional religion, but I must dissent from this claim because it is nonsense.
As do I. An interesting perspective none the less. did I mention I was a fan of Fantasy and Science Fiction?
People who write such stuff like to forget that Boukman’s head ended on a pike. Toussaint Louverture was a bigoted Catholic who persecuted Vodou practitioners and made Catholicism the state religion in his 1801 constitution.
You are right about people using history to justify their beliefs. However, as you wrote, many are not that knowledgeable about history and in the least, have only a cursory familiarity with it. If people read more first-hand sources where available, they would have a better understanding of the past and the present (most probably don’t and will reiterate whatever nonsense or half-truths are fed to them). Failing having access to primary sources, one should consult, read, utilize whatever resources that are out there to get a more in-depth picture of history. Talking to people, reading post such as yours about Haiti helps me in the ongoing process of learning.
I’m all for people adhering to any or no religion, but let’s not distort history to justify their choices.
Agree!
Last, but not least, how the hell do you get Haitian slaves when the whole point of Haiti was to put an end to slavery “forever”, as Louverture’s constitution put it?
If one believes who gives a turd what others’ think? Any suggestions on. Entertaining article, though! A stupid question but I’ll ask it anyway; do you know of any books are written on the history of Haiti by actual Haitians?
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“do you know of any books are written on the history of Haiti by actual Haitians?”
Try this one by T. Madiou, if you can read French: https://archive.org/details/histoiredhaiti01madigoog
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Maintaining order according to the bourgeoisie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hznlp-DwgSw)
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“If I gave you a bowl of skittles and three of them were poison would you still eat them?”
“Are the other skittles human lives?”
“What?”
“Like. Is there a good chance. A really good chance. I would be saving someone from a war zone and probably their life if I ate a skittle?”
“Well sure. But the point-”
“I would eat the skittles.”
“Ok-well the point is-”
“I would GORGE myself on skittles. I would eat every single f*cking skittle I could find. I would STUFF myself with skittles. And when I found the poison skittle and died I would make sure to leave behind a legacy of children and of friends who also ate skittle after skittle until there were no skittles to be eaten. And each person who found the poison skittle we would weep for. We would weep for their loss, for their sacrifice, and for the fact that they did not let themselves succumb to fear but made the world a better place by eating skittles.
Because your REAL question…the one you hid behind a shitty little inaccurate, insensitive, dehumanizing racist little candy metaphor is, IS MY LIFE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF MEN, WOMEN, AND TERRIFIED CHILDREN…
… and what kind of monster would think the answer to that question… is yes?” – Eli Boznik
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“To obtain that license, would-be African-style hair-braiders must spend thousands of dollars and complete over 1,500 hours of state-sanctioned education. However, none of the state’s licensed cosmetology schools actually teach anything about African-style hair-braiding. In other words, the licensing requirement is an arbitrary and unnecessary obstacle that prevents would-be African-style hair-braiders from earning a living in a totally harmless occupation. By contrast, to become a licensed emergency medical technician in Missouri, a job that legitimately impacts public health and safety, it requires just 100 hours of education.”
http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/22/federal-judge-upholds-ban-on-unlicensed
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Breast feeding while black. Another police murder of an unarmed black person #latoyasmith http://baltimoregazette.com/atlanta-officer-kills-black-woman-following-breastfeeding-argument/
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@cleonette,
What the f***? It’s not as if she was hurting anyone. This is getting out of hand.
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Disregard last post. Informed that this was fake and actually happened in 2014 in NYC
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Anybody into Mr.Robot ?
Mad World
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gfbNYaD2PE8)
Elliott hacks his Hospital
(https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=g6gG-6Co_v4)
On Banking
(https://youtu.be/BPPjZ7TbmgE)
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White officer shoots herself, then makes up story about being shot by black man; caught lying and charged with four felonies but still currently on paid leave:
http://m.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-news/cop-made-up-story-about-georgia-shooting-gbi-says/nsdct/
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Another unnarmed white guy killed by police in the L.A. area. The only people who organize protests are Black activists.
http://www.laweekly.com/news/an-unarmed-white-man-is-shot-by-a-cop-and-black-activists-rally-7216759
The LAPD shot and killed 38 people in 2015. A third of those suffered from mental illness.
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@Solitaire
This case brings to mind the 1989 Boston case of Charles Stuart. His claims of a “raspy-voiced Black man” murdering his pregnant wife and wounding him led to an intense and abusive dragnet of African American men throughout Boston.
A few months later, when additional investigation pointed to Charles Stuart, he committed suicide by jumping off a bridge. He did not have to face the immense damage he had done to the entire city of Boston with his lies:
http://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2014/10/22/the-charles-stuart-murders-and-the-racist-branding-boston-just-cant-seem-to-shake
Sherry Hall and Charles Stuart employed the classic “thief, thief” technique.
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@michaeljonbarker
Interesting, but unsurprising that Black activists are out front in protesting this man’s murder.
This comment stood out:
I also noticed the reporter using copspeak in the article:
Your point about the high numbers of mentally ill people being murdered is well taken. A lot of people killed by police are disabled physically or mentally. Their reaction times are slowed and the police misinterpret that as resistance, then overreact by shooting. (No one ever considers why citizens in a supposed democracy are expected to obey shouted commands from crazed gunmen who suddenly appear at your door or window.)
That disturbing trend flies under the radar because of the focus on racial motivation. For example, Keith Lamont Scott suffered from traumatic brain injury.
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@Afrofem
Agreed. The writer also describes the event as a “confrontation” when there is no evidence that the victim fought back.
“It doesn’t appear the confrontation was captured on video”
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20 years clean and sober today. fragmenting . picking up the pieces again. deep blues. can’t get up . force myself out of bed. bench-presed 55 kg today.on starting blocks again. read abagond’s blog almost everyday. can only ‘like’ comments. can’t talk again. (can’t write) aphonia. meeting tomorrow again with school. live in a racist environment. can’t take it anymore. explode or implode? terrible brain fog. used to be quite bright. can’ t talk most times (first time writing in weeks). heart so sore. only thing I can think saying being unavoidably in the presence of white people, is: ” f*ck off and f*ck off back to europe. give us back our land and minerals and the trillions of rands of you have stolen from us”. no humour left . have to keep carrying on for my daughter. can’t decide yet: land rights for the khoisan or blacklandfirst. understanding the three pillars. experiencing the three pillars in one. have to pick myself up again. bone-weary, yet have to find the energy to carry on . sun is shining but it feels grey. heart thinking for african americans/ aborigines/maoris/palestinians/ fellow south africans/ african refugees/ african friends from uganda, congo, mocambique, zimbabwe,namibia/syrians/ iraqis/ brazilians/ caribbeans/ south americans/ all first peoples/ people under the commonwealth and american imperialism and all peoples struggling and fighting against white supremacy. for africans and africans in diaspora -still maafa. also still thinking of hiroshima and nagasaki and( okinawa), not forgetting the millions of uxo in laos, killing fields of cambodia, the people of myanmar, too many dying of starvation and the impossible lives of north koreans. the dalits and africans in india( saw with my own eyes the living conditions there). can’t think properly. have not sculpted in months. still dealing with crime against me again! therapy twice a week. ptsd. this blog ,i think, triggers me a lot. learn a lot about white supremacy. herneith is beautifully incorrigible. thank you. won’t go into sentimental spiel of the commenters who teach me a lot and abagond, who i can’t understand how he does it.
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jefe, it’s churlish of you not thanking me for setting you straight on the history of HK, and its importance to China.
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@ Afrofem
Yes, and also Susan Smith, who murdered her two little boys and made up a story about a black carjacker.
I wonder if there are any stats collected concerning police violence against people who are deaf. I do know anecdotally of a couple cases where cops didn’t recognize sign language for what it was and gave the victims a beat down for “not complying” and “resisting arrest.”
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@taotesan
“understanding the three pillars. experiencing the three pillars in one. “
Yes, I understand.
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@Solitaire
I remember the Susan Smith case very well. Luckily it came after the Charles Stuart atrocity in Boston. The local police actually did their jobs in uncovering her lies before a Black person was ensnared in her deceit.
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Abagond, I’m sure you will write something about this first face-to-face between the 2 Presidential candidates: Clinton versus Trump.
An epic battle of dragons, determining the near future of USAmerica!
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/27/opinions/presidential-debate-race-joseph/index.html)
It seems that White America is fully aware of the seriousness of contemporary racial issues in the USA (They know that Black Lives Matter is there, for example) . It does not seem so, but it is!
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@munubantu
I am doing a post in the debate.
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Resw sounds a lot like Kiwi; I have to say.
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Is the concept of “Pure AA’s” a thing in the African American community? Could this be the reason for bullying and exclusion of black immigrants?
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Like everybody else, Black Americans can be xenophobic. If you speak a foreign language in their vicinity, they assume you are speaking ill of them! Why else would you speak a language they don’t understand!?
A relative had an African American friend who would make fun of him for speaking French. His friend took french in college and speak it fluently now and proud of it. He made fun of my relative because he felt inferior to him linguistically. Ignore such nonsense.
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I enjoy listening to other black people speak in languages other than English. As to them speaking ‘ill’ of me I wouldn’t care as I don’t understand them anyway!
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Has anyone watched the NightOf series. If so, what do you think of their portrayal of black people in America.
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I understand that, we have 40 ethnic groups all with their languages and it can get annoying sometimes.
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Herneith, that’s because you’re Canadian or did you forget that? ” As to them speaking ‘ill’ of me I wouldn’t care as I don’t understand them anyway!” A sane attitude that some don’t share. I suspect that resw is just jealous of David Adjaye like my relative’s friend was jealous that my relative could speak French and he couldn’t.
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I haven’t followed or read this blog in a while, but I saw a couple of topics floating around on other blogs that might be amusing to the regular readers, here.
The first one regards a topic which was addressed here in 2010 (or before, IIRC), when I still read and (attempted to) contribute. The blog in question is run by a self-professed atheist in Ontario, Canada:
https://godlesscranium.com/2016/09/24/can-black-people-be-racist-can-women-be-sexist-power-prejudice/
The second one is from a self-proclaimed “modern Viking” in Norway – I’m not even sure how to qualify their post, titled “Fools Who Love Marching” – all I know is that he seems to equate people marching for civil rights with those who march in military parades, or neo-nazis:
https://bull-hansen.com/2016/09/23/fools-who-love-marching/
Have fun with these!
*goes back to blogging and gaming*
😎
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@gro jo
“Like everybody else, Black Americans can be xenophobic.”
Unfortunately true. Black Americans are first and foremost Americans…and Americans can be an insular, ignorant and anti-intellectual bunch. There are whole swathes of the population that don’t know that the US is an imperial power——something everyone else on the planet is very clear about.
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@Herneith
” As to them speaking ‘ill’ of me I wouldn’t care as I don’t understand them anyway!”
I second your emotion! LOL!
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” As to them speaking ‘ill’ of me I wouldn’t care as I don’t understand them anyway!”
Unless they are planning to physically attack you.
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Don’t worry I keep a wide berth! I also have a black belt in D&R.
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Western Imperialism continues. A new 100 million dollar drone base in Niger. And I thought when Obama first ran that he was the anti war president lol
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The UN released a report stating that the U.S. owes Black people reparations for racial discrimination and mistreatment.
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A recent Chicago Tribune story about the Dakota pipeline protectors/protestors is pretty one-sided.
They are attempting to paint the Native Americans as violent and unpredictable and the White farmers and ranchers as justified in fearing for their personal safety. Some examples:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-north-dakota-pipeline-protest-20161002-story.html#
More White Settler bias in the present day.
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@Paige
I will be doing a post on that.
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Pray for Haiti .. their western shores just got rocked by Hurricane Matthew.
This storm is looks like a bad boy…. it’s been a while since Florida has gotten a Cat 4 or 5 like this one … the gas lines and stores are crazy as expected
Good Luck to all of you who live up north on the East Coast
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@ Linda
Keep safe.
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@Linda🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
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“I’m starting to see a lot more guns in the back of pickup trucks. All it is going to take is one incident and emotions are going to overtake the situation,” he said.”
Sounds like a barely veiled threat to me. And he’s already planned out an alibi: “We were scared by those Injuns! Emotions just took over!”
Note the passive voice: “Emotions are going to overtake the situation” as if emotions are the ones shooting the guns. Also obscures whose emotions are overtaking them, which makes it easier to shift blame onto the protesters.
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@LoM
Those ranchers are still thinking like settlers instead of citizens.
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@Solitaire
I did notice the passive voice. Like the speaker was evading responsibility for planned actions.
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abagond, I just read this on Quora. Do you think you could do a post on this.
https://www.quora.com/Is-this-video-accurate-in-its-portrayal-of-the-problems-black-people-face-in-America
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@LoM
Places like Wyoming, Montana, or the Dakotas represent the last of the American frontier. The Frontier is where real genocide occurred. Those settlers were not just in the business of terrorizing the Indigenous population, they were fully engaged in exterminating the original inhabitants of the plains and mountains in the West.
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Trump is a warning to the bourgeoisie; a warning that they should not ignore the needs of the proletariat. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/hell-likely-lose—but-trump-is-the-final-warning-to-elites/article32278545/
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@villagewriter
Thanks for the link.
I found John Ibbitson’s argument full of false equivalents and maudlin sympathy for working class White people. Sympathy I don’t share. The White working class sold their future and the future of America for a pottage of lentils long ago. In their case, the pottage was composed of reassurances that their White privilege would remain intact, giving them unearned advantages over other US citizens.
In the aftermath of the Civil Rights Movement, the White working class allowed themselves to be manipulated by politicians who played to their fears, anxieties and resentments. The thought of Black people operating on a level playing field with them and reducing the value of their White privilege was too much for Ibittson’s “people in Peoria”.
The White working class fell for the politics of anger, resentment and punishment against Black people. The Republican party (and the Trump) candidacy is the logical result. It never occurred to the “people in Peoria” that loss and suffering in one sector of the American population would spread to them. Now they find themselves falling off the same cliff edge they so gleefully pushed Black people off thirty years ago; massive job losses, drug epidemics, home foreclosures, high rates of suicides and homicides——and a political class that could care less if working class Whites lived or died.
John Ibbitson’s article describes false choices between “left” and “right”. Ibbitson describes a Left that, “wanted social justice, protection for minorities, a cleaner environment.” versus a Right that wanted “lower taxes and trade deals.” Both are gross simplifications. Both groups are described as having equal power and influence in politics and society. He omits the erosion of laws that ensure social justice, social protection for all and environmental mandates. He also omits the tremendous power of those who strive for lower taxes (exclusively for the rich) and “trade” deals that favor multinational corporations at everyone else’s expense. Finally, Ibbitson fails to mention portions of the Right that unleashed the Culture Wars on the rest of society and their obsession with religious, social and sexual control.
I found Ibbitson’s article a clumsy “red herring” propaganda piece that props up White working class in America——a group whose wounds are mostly self-inflicted.
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“a group whose wounds are mostly self-inflicted.”
Lol…they no longer have the luxury to victimize minorities by lynching them so they turn to the “politically correct” argument. He did indeed omit a lot from his article. Thanks for the analysis.
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Isn’t Donald Trump part of the elite because of his wealth? Doesn’t that make him part of the establishment?
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@villagewriter
Forbes magazine says he is worth billions, so yes, very elite. His tax policy is by and for the rich.
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Democracy Now! host, Amy Goodman will turn herself in to North Dakota police on Oct. 17, 2016. She is accused of trespassing during her filming of the vicious pepper spray and dog attack against protestors at the Dakota Access pipeline.
According to Democracy Now!:
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/10/13/media_advisory_journalist_amy_goodman_to
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Black people have not a sungle damned ally on the planet. Wake up. Stop talking and debating with the whites. If they had their choice, we’d be slaves by dawn.
Open you goddamned eyes and get a firearm with plenty of ammo.
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“Open you goddamned eyes and get a firearm with plenty of ammo.”
Yeah, you mean the firearm and ammo that white people manufacture? Aren’t you being simpleminded?
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I could not believe when I saw following webpage,
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/14/us/delta-black-doctor-discrimination-claim/index.html)
People doubting that a Black woman could be an actual doctor? In the USA?
If it was in Brazil I would believe, because there, Black professionals are far less numerous, so it’s less likely that a Black person is an actual doctor. But in the USA?
Food for thought!
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Are Japan’s xenophobic immigration policies going to change?
See,
(http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/Japan-desperate-for-foreign-farmers)
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@ Average Bee
I beg to differ.
Black people exist in North America, the Caribbean, South America, Europe and Africa.
They could or should network between themselves and help each other when the need arises. We watched, during the fight against Apartheid, that under popular demand (manifestations, etc), Western governments were forced to decree sanctions against it, what help to its ultimate fall. Black Americans were some of the most prominent militants for that cause. People of neighbor countries (neighbor to South Africa) also consented high sacrifices to help the cause there.
This was a precedent. It can be studied and eventually followed.
White nations are also not a single block and you can study them, look at their contradictions and learn to exploit them to your benefice. Some countries in Africa got rid of their (White) colonial masters relying mainly on weaponry given to them by other White powers which were, at the time, against Western possessions in Africa.
Be smart. You will find help if you search for it and looked far enough.
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Corrections in my last comment:
where is:
what help to its ultimate fall.
should be:
what helped to its ultimate fall.
where is:
You will find help if you search for it and looked far enough.
should be:
You will find help if you search for it and look far enough.
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Wow…
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/16/politics/rudy-giuliani-rigged-elections-donald-trump/index.html)
Rigged elections? Dead people voting?
Lol…
Maybe, the USA has already become a Third World society, but we weren’t informed!
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“The White working class sold their future and the future of America for a pottage of lentils long ago. In their case, the pottage was composed of reassurances that their White privilege would remain intact, giving them unearned advantages over other US citizens. ”
Such as?
“In the aftermath of the Civil Rights Movement, the White working class allowed themselves to be manipulated by politicians who played to their fears, anxieties and resentments. The thought of Black people operating on a level playing field with them and reducing the value of their White privilege was too much for Ibittson’s “people in Peoria”. ”
How is your overly broad claim squared with the fact that one of the main backers of the Civil Rights Movement was the trade unions? People like Walter Reuther, George Meany provided the funds for the March on Washington, on August 28, 1963. You know, the one where MLK made his I have a dream speech?
“The White working class fell for the politics of anger, resentment and punishment against Black people. ”
So did a number of Blacks who were for the tough on crime policies of politicians such as the Clintons.
“I found Ibbitson’s article a clumsy “red herring” propaganda piece that props up White working class in America——a group whose wounds are mostly self-inflicted.”
The strange thing about your comment is the fact that you buy the White working class in America as a solid block of unregenerate reactionaries. That’s a myth. The same pro republican whites can turn 180 degrees given the right circumstance. One of the leaders of the SWP (USA), Farrell Dobbs,
was a conservative Republican, and supported Herbert Hoover for president in 1928. He got turned around by the Great Depression of the 1930s. He was in the leadership of the Minneapolis general strike of 1934. That strike and others like it led to the organization of US workers, which in turn led to the victory of the Civil Rights Movement some three decades later.
I’m not going to pretend that everything was smooth sailing. The labor and civil rights movements suffer from having been co-opted by the Democratic party. The left wings of both the unions and civil rights were destroyed in the process.
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@ grojo
I agree with your opinion grojo.
Another example of the fluidity of positions of some segments of the White population of the USA is revealed by the Obama victories in the past 2 elections, especially the first one. It is being said that almost half of the White voters preferred Obama and not his White opponent. The minority vote could then make the difference that lead to those victories. Without a significant White vote Obama would not been chosen.
If you want to conquer the White vote you must study it and try to see how to win it for your side. But it depends also of other social circumstances of the moment. Right now, with all disappointment with a 8-year long Black presidency, the situation is not the best one.
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Hi Gro Jo. I’m Average Bee. And no, you don’t want to know me.
So, what have YOU manufactured? Or is this just another manifestation of the white inventors argument? I’m supposed to be grateful to you?
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Know what I’ve noticed over the past few weeks?
Whites will be quick to point to Black “crime statistics” as the basis of their hatred for and desire to see us gunned down in the streets. These are the same people who will then, in the next sentence, proclaim that THEY are discriminated against more since they, statistically, are murdered by police more frequently. By their logic, their worse then us when it comes to crime right?
Of course I am. Then again, history bears that out.
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@gro jo
“…you buy the White working class in America as a solid block of unregenerate reactionaries. That’s a myth.”
Many working class Whites would agree with you. I just came across a Guardian article that deals with your contention:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/oct/13/liberal-media-bias-working-class-americans
The author, Sarah Smarsh adds a lot of meat to the bone you tossed out. One of her main points seems to be that there is a sharp line between working class Whites and middle class whites. Smarsh included a link to, political scientist Matthew MacWilliams reported findings that a penchant for authoritarianism – not income, education, gender, age or race –predicted Trump support.
Smarsh points out:
It is only with working class Whites lessening of White privilege that they can begin to understand the precariousness of life for Black, Immigrant or Native folks——what we have dealt with for centuries in the US.
I’ll grant you the White working class may not be a “solid block of unregenerate reactionaries”, but they are still more cohesive with each other and higher income Whites than they will admit. And that is no myth.
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Democracy Now! host, Amy Goodman had all charges dropped against her in connection to her coverage of the attack on protestors/protectors in North Dakota.
According to the Democracy Now! website:
http://www.democracynow.org/2016/10/17/breaking_riot_charges_against_amy_goodman
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Afrofem
Please state what you understand by white privilege that White workers enjoy but no black person, no matter how wealthy, does. How was some redneck GI more privileged than Colin Powell, his superior officer?
“It is only with working class Whites lessening of White privilege that they can begin to understand the precariousness of life for Black, Immigrant or Native folks——what we have dealt with for centuries in the US.”
Don’t make me laugh. Where was all that “white privilege” when basic industries were reorganized and thousands of White workers thrown on the pavement along with all others similarly situated? The only privilege I can recall was the leniency shown the killers of Vincent Chin. Not much of a consolation prize for losing the middle class lifestyle most US workers achieved after WWII. How about the air traffic controllers, Reagan, their hero, fired? You make a great deal of the fact that Whites aren’t enlightened, are Blacks? If they were, why would they have given Obama, an avowed admirer of Reagan so much credit? Why are they lining up behind HRC, a politician with a solid track record of going against the interests of the Black community?
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“Hi Gro Jo. I’m Average Bee. And no, you don’t want to know me.”
Hi Average Bee. Why wouldn’t I want to know you?
“So, what have YOU manufactured? Or is this just another manifestation of the white inventors argument? I’m supposed to be grateful to you?”
Nothing. Tell me who the black firearms and ammo manufacturer(s) you plan to buy from is(are), how much of the firearms and ammo market they/he/she control(s), etc. What has the white inventor argument got to do with the subject in discussion?
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@abagond,
Can you start a new Open Thread? This is getting long.
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@gro jo
“Where was all that “white privilege” when basic industries were reorganized and thousands of White workers thrown on the pavement along with all others”
Their White privilege ensured that they were the last fired and that they could likely fall back on the their family’s net worth to cushion the blow until they could find other, albeit less lucrative, employment. The net worth of the average White family is nine times the net worth of the average Black family.
The White privilege of those unemployed White workers also means that they don’t have to worry about constant police harassment in their neighborhoods or the spector of long term imprisonment for “broken windows” offenses. Prison is a merely a way of monetizing the bodies of a surplus population. For Whites, the proliferation of prisons amount to a national jobs program.
I just read an essay by Chauncey DeVega about White Privilege where he says:
http://www.chaunceydevega.com/2016/10/white-privilege-thy-name-is-donald-trump.html#more
Your hypothetical “redneck GI” is more privileged than Colin Powell on several fronts. It is a false argument to conflate the White enlisted man’s privilege bestowed on him by virtue of his skin color to the privilege of rank earned by Colin Powell. Ditto for any White working woman and Oprah (a favorite strawman) of White privilege deniers.
White privilege does not guarantee a good life, it merely puts the odds in the favor of the privileged.
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Correction: (a favorite strawman of White privilege deniers).
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@gro jo
“Why are they lining up behind HRC, a politician with a solid track record of going against the interests of the Black community?”
Quite simply because the alternative, Trump, is terrifying to Black folk!
As Abagond pointed out in the post, The Trump Effect On Children:
That is some powerful fear. If the children can feel it, imagine what the adults are grappling with in private.
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Link to the article:
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@ Anne
The new Open Thread:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/
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