
The star-spangled banner that Francis Scott Key saw flying over Fort McHenry, now at the Smithsonian,
“The Star-Spangled Banner” (1814) has been the official national anthem of the US since 1931. It is the song you hear when an American wins a medal at the Olympics. It is the song heard at the beginning of ball games in the US, a custom started in 1918 during the First World War.
US schoolchildren are taught to stand during the song, face the flag and put their right hand over their heart. Most are taught at least the first verse. Few know all four verses. In the military you are taught to salute during the song.
Schoolchildren are also taught part of the story behind the song: During the War of 1812, on September 13th 1814, all day and all night, the British navy pounded away at Fort McHenry in the harbour of Baltimore. Francis Scott Key, stuck behind British lines, saw the battle and throughout the night looked to see if the US flag was still flying. When it was still flying at sunrise, he was so overjoyed he wrote a poem, “Defence of Fort McHenry”, which starts:
O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
Thus the first verse.
The part they leave out is that Key was a slave owner who fought in the war against the Colonial Marines, runaway slaves fighting for their freedom. They beat him and went on to burn down Washington, DC. So in the third verse Key says:
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
The US flag stands for “the land of the free” – that triumphed over slaves fighting for their freedom!
The US wanted the 6,000 freed slaves back as “property”, but Britain settled them in Canada and Trinidad.
Key’s poem was printed in newspapers across the nation. It was set to the tune of an English drinking song, “To Anacreon in Heaven” (c. 1780), and became “The Star-Spangled Banner”, one of the patriotic songs of the 1800s. It did not become the national anthem till the 1900s, thanks mainly to Major League Baseball.
Covers: the two best I know of:
- Whitney Houston (1991) at the Super Bowl.
- Jimi Hendrix (1969) at Woodstock.
Houston’s cover is beautiful, probably the best ever, but Hendrix’s tortured cover suited a time when race riots at home and an unjust war abroad made many wonder:
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- The Black National Anthem
- athletes during “The Star-Spangled Banner”:
- John Carlos – gave a Black Power salute
- Simone Manuel – cried
- Gabby Douglas – did not put her hand on her heart, but later apologized.
- Colin Kaepernick – remained sitting because Black lives matter.
- Jimi Hendrix
- Whitney Houston
- Super Bowl
- Why US history is Whitewashed
- Colonial Marines
Lyrics: what Francis Scott Key wrote:
O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bomb bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
‘Tis the star-spangled banner – O long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov’d home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with vict’ry and peace may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto – “In God is our trust,”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Being British I knew none of this. Very interesting indeed.
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@Zoe Jordan
I’d bet 95% of Americans didn’t know either. Kind of embarrassing really. Especially for black Americans who sing this song over and over again.
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Colonial marines. And they are BLACK. Cool.
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With the Colin Kaepernick dust up and folks mostly the non melanated segment of America complaining about Gabby Douglass not placing her hand over her heart. I will not judge Kaepernick i agree with his choice not acknowledge the so called national anthem. This country was built on the blood, sweat, and tears of black slaves yet black people in this country are not seen as citizens who deserve equal rights the same as white citizens of this country. I just learned about Francis Scott Key and the racist history of the national anthem. With the polarization in this country especially with police brutality and the murdering of black bodies i understand how many black people have the feeling to not respect patriotic icons, especially when black people in America are being treated like second class citizens.
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Since we are on the subject of the Star Spangled Banner the late Whitney Houston had the best rendition in my opinion. She was “The Voice ” pop stars today can’t hold a candle to her. May she rest in peace.
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@ Herneith
“The US wanted the 6,000 freed slaves back as “property”, but Britain settled them in Canada and Trinidad.”
Were your ancestors among this group? Maybe even part of the Colonial Marines?
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Just learned about the colonial marines in conjunction with the Star Spangled Banner think pieces. Abagond will you do a post on them?
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@ Mary
A post on the Colonial Marines would be awesome if I can find enough material. But first I need to do the post on Jill Stein before the month is out.
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I wonder how many around us around the world do know the history of our National anthems? I certainly don’t fully know the story of mine but the jist of it is asking God to preserve the monarch who can then be a tyrant to us all and conquer the rest of the world, again, with a little helping hand from God who is quite obviously supporting us all the way! The 6th verse is usually omitted for obvious reasons.
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the Queen!
source: http://www.lyricsondemand.com/n/nationalanthemlyrics/britiannationalanthemlyrics.html
I’m ashamed to say I have no idea who Marshall Wade was but I don’t expect he was a fan of Bonnie Prince Charlie! I’m also surprised there’s nothing in it about God giving us a hand to bash the Irish up too, but there you go!
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@Abagond: Okay fair enough.
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correction – ‘expect he was’ not ‘don’t expect he was’
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@ Zoe Jordan
I always loved the French national anthem (because of the tune, and also the great scene in “Casablanca”) — until college when two friends of mine, French international students, sang it together and then did an off-the-cuff translation for me. I was devastated! It is so graphically violent, not at all what I expected. My face must have shown my dismay because one of my friends stopped halfway through and said reflectively, “It really is quite horrible, yes? And yet we teach little children to sing such words.”
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Reblogged this on The Most Revolutionary Act and commented:
*
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Interesting history about the 6,000 runaway slaves who fought with the British in the War of 1812 – and the song Frances Scott Key wrote about successfully defeating them. The 3rd verse (which Americans never sing) is particularly enlightening.
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@ Solitaire
I just read it, God isn’t it awful.
Seems that basically national anthems are songs about killing off the rest of the world – Always with Gods help!
No wonder the worlds such a mess, God must be bloody confused!
I used to be P.A. to an elderly lady who was born in the 1920’s. She told me that during the London blitz she wouldn’t go down the shelters as she didn’t like them so she would stay in her home and often preyed but she said she wouldn’t prey for the bombs to miss her as that would mean they would possibly hit someone else. She just preyed for the right thing to happen. How lovely is that? Anthem writers could learn a lot from her.
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The black youth are especially disaffected with the social injustice in this country so many of them are giving their middle fingers to these beloved icons of the dominant culture. I wonder since the racist history of the national anthem and it’s author have been brought to light will it be talked about objectively in American classrooms by white teachers and academics?
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@ Mary
That would be really good wouldn’t it. It really is time to rid ourselves of these archaic, exclusive, and actually cruel anthems. They’re not relevant today and not conjunctive to peaceful futures of nations singularly or internationally as a world.
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@Zoe: Precisely.
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@ Zoe
“Seems that basically national anthems are songs about killing off the rest of the world – Always with Gods help!”
“O Canada” seems harmless. At least the English lyrics — I don’t want to know what the original French lyrics mean, I’ve learned my lesson about that.
~
Does anyone else remember around the time of the Bicenntennial there being a serious push to change the national anthem to “America the Beautiful?”
~
Until about, oh, two hours ago, I could get quite exercised over the audacity of the British torching our White House. Now I’m like: “Black slaves built it, black slaves burned it down; seems fair to me.”
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My, My so we are now catching up with history.
A lot of history was taught; however as time goes by it gets consolidated.
I believe that Blacks have a choice today. They can continue to relive the past which has treated them very harshly or train their children to look forward.
Get educated and get into the work force. (Sorry Mary “Work Hard – please do not throw up”.)
History should never be forgotten; however it must be placed in its proper place.
Hate is a natural emotion and must be dug out by all positive effort. Hate denies one the ability to grow.
When teaching the history of the United States one must include the conditions of all of the world at the time of that history.
Other nations that have had slavery, have managed to place it in the proper prospective and are moving on, while the Blacks in the United States seem to relish the continued separation of races.
Opportunities await those who remove the chip from their shoulder, become involved in the larger world and become advocate of reducing the harsh period of slavery to it proper place in history.
Yesterday has come and gone!
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@Allen Shaw
In your opinion, what actual work have White Americans done to, “reducing the harsh period of [African] slavery to it proper place in [US] history.”?
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@ Allen Shaw
27 million people live, worldwide, in slavery today. More than any at any time in the history of mankind. Please don’t remove slavery to history lest those be forgotten.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I don’t want to know what the original French lyrics mean”
Maybe if you translate that into French, your reading comprehension will improve?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
And do you comprehend it now? 😉
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Reblogged this on The Militant Negro™.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Re the Norwegian national anthem, it’s got some nice imagery but still more references to fighting than I’d want. Better than many, though, I grant you that.
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The lyrics of the Jamaican national anthem are free of violence:
Eternal Father bless our land
Guard us with Thy mighty hand
Keep us free from evil powers
Be our light through countless hours
To our leaders, Great Defender,
Grant true wisdom from above
Justice, truth be ours forever
Jamaica, land we love
Jamaica, Jamaica, Jamaica, land we love.
Teach us true respect for all
Stir response to duty’s call
Strengthen us the weak to cherish
Give us vision lest we perish
Knowledge send us, Heavenly Father,
Grant true wisdom from above
Justice, truth be ours forever
Jamaica, land we love
Jamaica, Jamaica, Jamaica, land we love.
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Mr. Abagond, I admit Jimi Hendrix and Whitney Houston’s renditions of the Star Spangled Banner were good; but, in my opinion, Marvin Gaye’s 1979 version was just awesome.
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@ Allen Shaw
“Other nations that have had slavery, have managed to place it in the proper prospective and are moving on, while the Blacks in the United States seem to relish the continued separation of races.”
.
Mr Shaw. You sure are funny. Do you do stand-up comedy?
Good comedians are a rarity these days!
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Afrofem
I am truly sorry but I do not know how to respond to your question. If you are unaware of all of the programs that have been introduced over the past years, nothing that I can say is going to assist you.
You are a diehard believer and therefore you will continue to hold your position.
Now I do not know what you want White people to do for Blacks; however you should list some of the duties that White people have to Black people, instead of asking what have they done for Blacks.
Anyways following are a few thoughts.
The tax base is not enhanced by Blacks to pay for the following; however:
Just for the sake of argument many schools offer free education to Blacks. There are scholarships everywhere. Over the years there have been government programs that have been favorable to Blacks.
I understand there are very successful Blacks in the major cities and the graduation rate of Blacks continue to rise.
I also understand that social programs that have been developed and put in place since the 60’s have often failed to achieve the desired goals. While enriching a few Blacks and others that administered the programs the intended receivers failed to gain in sufficient numbers.
Housing through the Section 8 system has improved the living quarters of eligible families, food stamp programs have help feed those eligible individuals, and the medical programs have allowed those eligible to benefit. The use of free day care to allow those eligible to seek employment is also available.
Additionally if Blacks continue to remain isolated in Black communities, it is going to be difficult to assist them because they stifle each other like “crabs in a barrel.
I am sure the above will be totally inadequate for you; but there it is.
By the way, the average person in the United States does not condone the latest killing of Blacks by the police and given sufficient time it will stop. The Black Lives Matter groups are going to be very successful if they can keep from burning down their own shopping centers and homes.
Hopefully they will work with the NAACP instead of thinking of the NAACP as useless.
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Fan Look at South America where there were far more Black brought into slavery!
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Zoe Jordan
Please. Do not confuse what you refer to today as slavery with what occurred in the 1621 -1965 period in the United States. First there was actually slavery allowed by law and then after 1870 there was “Jim Crow” which is the legal removal of any common human rights of Blacks in the Southern and other States.
For some of us, at least me, the “Jim Crow” period by far was the worse period.
Perhaps the mistreatment of Jews over the centuries might be comparable when one researches their history
http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/classroom/lynching_table_year.html
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@Helen
It was the 1983 NBA All-Star at The Fabulous Forum
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Once again going back in history, find an excuse to change things.
So what will the new National Anthem be? Maybe James Brown “I Feel Good”. When I was young we sang a song America “My Country tis of the, Sweet land of Liberty” oops, there goes that word “Liberty”. Can’t use that any more.
Even if we use “I Feel Good” someone is not going to “feel good”.
Each of us have a choice, the person that does not want to stand up when the National Anthem is played will provide his own way. He does understand the consequence of his action, whether it is right or wrong in the opinion of the public.
Maybe the long term results for this person will not be as grim as in the past. Today we have more individuals expressing dissatisfaction with our government and our way of life.
Today, we have a professional military, consequentially there is not as much patriotic feeling among the masses. When a person serves they generally get filled with patriotism and it is difficult to get rid of that feeling.
I get the understanding that a change is desired, let us hope it is for the best. In my opinion, based on the balance of the world, “we have had it made” regardless of our past problems; however it has been pointed out to me that I am quite foolish.
The “new leaders” are going to make it far better for all! That is once they can agree to what is going to satisfy everyone.
When are we going to see the list of changes that are going to be made to make it better?
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Allen Shaw
“We have made it ” regaredless of our past problems.
What past problems do you refer to? What impact has that legacy had on your life? Do you not think it is invaluable for people to learn from past mistakes so as not to perpetuate further wrong doings?
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@Allen Shaw
“Fan Look at South America where there were far more Black brought into slavery!”
.
I’m not understanding what you are referring to!
What/who/where specifically in South Amerika do you want me to see??
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Allen Shaw said:
“When a person serves they generally get filled with patriotism and it is difficult to get rid of that feeling.”
.
“A group of young black airmen en route to Alabama from the North are ordered to leave the comfortable rear car of a troop train and move to the dirty and noisy first car beside the locomotive. As the airmen step out, they stare at the men taking their place: German prisoners of war. ”
http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/21/arts/for-a-black-squadron-an-enemy-not-german.html
Mr Shaw. After the above incident, how difficult do you suppose it was for the Black patriotic Tuskegee Airmen to get rid of their jingoistic feelings??
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Allen Shaw:
Jackie Robinson:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2016/08/jackie-robinson-colin-kaepernick-star-bangled-banner/
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Well hang on to the past. Your hate will consume you.
By the way that story you told is well known to some of us. Not to those that are just now going back into the past.
They also had German prisoner in the west. It is rumored that some American women got impregnated by German prisoners.
About South America study the history of Brazil and look at the current status.
Do your own leg work.
Hate will destroy you!
To Omnipresent:
What impact has that legacy had on your life? My life has been easy. I have been fortunate; however for those whose families have not had a good past, maintaining a feeling of hate is not helping anyone’s cause.
Do not bother to send any more messages to me, I will not review this subject anymore. You can squabble among yourselves.
Hate will destroy you and reduce you to nothing.
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“Well hang on to the past. Your hate will consume you.”
“Hate will destroy you and reduce you to nothing.”
Sounds, from the nonsense you spout, that you are speaking from experience.
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^^ this Allen Shaw person
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“Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, the well-known statement, made
by Samuel Johnson is something I can agree with.
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Allen Shaw
You act as though you are trying to ‘help’ so why the abrupt hasty exit? Is this a case of when the going gets tough. …? In many cases those coping with the legacy of wrong doing can’t ‘escape’ like you have. Think about it…
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“About South America study the history of Brazil and look at the current status.”
Allen Shaw,
I know that Brazil is home to the largest population of Africans outside of Africa. I also know that the legacy of slavery has left Black Brazilians the poorest and most oppressed people in that country.
Did you even watch the Olympics? How many Black Brazilian people did you see amongst the people seated in the various sports venue audiences or in video-cams background pans??
Where can I get a rose colored bubble like the one you exist in??
It gets very tiresome at times always dealing with the realities of race in Amerika I’m forced to live, every ______ day.
“Do not bother to send any more messages to me, I will not review this subject anymore.”
Those who can’t stand the heat should never venture into the kitchen – with BS!
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“Well hang on to the past. Your hate will consume you…Hate will destroy you and reduce you to nothing.”
Allen, why does hate have such different result for blacks and whites? A number of white people, Donald Trump being the latest, have made a good buck on hate, why, in your opinion, is it different for a black man? How should blacks deal with the past, should they create a Disneyfied version that’s at odds with the facts? As a child, I was told that it made no difference if you called the devil an evil bastard or daddy dear, he would still devour you. Were my elders wrong?
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I wonder if this is why Ray Charles chose “America the Beautiful” rather than the “Star Spangled Banner” to cover.
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@Allen Shaw: I knew this post would bring you slithering out of your sewer. You are one of those individuals who believes black people should just be quiet and except the half-a$$edness that being handed to us and smile while you and the rest of the dominant culture get to live like fat cats. I don’t hate white people or anybody else for that matter what I hate is the system that oppresses and you and other white people benefit from. You can take your b.s. and kick rocks in hell in open toe shoes. It’s white people who created this system and it’s white people who need to fix this mess they created.
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Why is it in this country when we sing or dance or play instruments or entertainment as sports figure black people are loved but when we speak the truth about the inequality in this country we are reviled? I read that is what happened to Paul Roberson for speaking out, and Eartha Kitt was blackballed in this country and couldn’t perform. So now white folks want to burn Kaepernick’s jersey probably the same ones coming for Gabby Douglass when she didn’t put her hand over her heart. What exactly does it mean to make America great again? Does it mean oppressing those black and brown and other non white people? Does Making America great mean killing and brutalizing black men and women at the hands of racist cops? I agree with Kaepernick I don’t see a reason to acknowledge the national anthem either. Liberty and Justice is not a reality for black people in this country.
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@ Mary Burrell
“So now white folks want to burn Kaepernick’s jersey probably the same ones coming for Gabby Douglass when she didn’t put her hand over her heart.”
To them, symbolic and ritualistic gestures of respect to the flag are more important than insisting the nation live up to the ideals of equality, justice, and freedom that the flag represents. SMDH.
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https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4EZCyQWo7H0/V8bv8-vf_fI/AAAAAAAAFUk/PJ-ON8GRCLwkjXXVGap6HVBX3l122XxsgCJoC/s530-p-rw/16%2B-%2B1
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Allen ‘self-installed spiritual advisor to Black peope’ Shaw
“Perhaps the mistreatment of Jews over the centuries might be comparable when one researches their history”
Do you mean when Jews people played a central role in the European enslavement of Africans?
When they were auctioneers, traders and chattel slave-owners of kidnapped Africans in the ‘New World’, some to become the richest people in America? Research the history of Jews central role of slavery in the US, Caribbean and South America who have been fully-fledged members of those dominant societies for centuries. A little detail: they were amongst the most vociferous against the ending of slavery.
Or do mean in the 20th and 21st centuries, dominating members of both apartheids in South Africa and Palestine. Please tell us how the Aborigines have persecuted them in Australia? Or as a matter of fact, name any significant period in US history where they were genocided, enslaved, discriminated against and make permanent members of an under-class.
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@TheHipHopRecords
Right, if you’re black you have to go back to Africa if you complain about America, but whites never have to go back to Europe when they complain about America.
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corrections: Jewish people
vociferous opponents
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I am embarrassed to say that I did not know this fact 😦
Just goes to show how much our education brainwashes and obscures facts and history. Patriotism may be necessary, but we could do more with informed patriotism than blind patriotism.
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Were your ancestors among this group? Maybe even part of the Colonial Marines?
Yes. Oro-Medonte. They were settled there in 1819, in case the Yanks wanted to make a return engagement. I don’t know if any were a part of the Colonial Marines, though. I do know that many left the area with the onset of the encroachment of white settlers. It drove prices up and many of the black settlers were forced to sell up and leave because the black farmers could not sell their produce. Folks this is oral history handed down from my grandmother who was born on a farm in Oro county. The official version is that they up and ‘left’ because the ground was not yielding enough. If this is so, why did these white people choose to settle there later? My grandmother always detested white people. She was awake to them despite growing up in a predominantly white environment, not many Black people with ‘good’ educations can claim as such. It takes a process and nwcs. I take after Granny in this respect.
Sounds, from the nonsense you spout, that you are speaking from experience.
This goof is speaking from hilarity and cluelessness.
You act as though you are trying to ‘help’ so why the abrupt hasty exit?
You’re not being obsequious enough.
Allen, why does hate have such different result for blacks and whites? A number of white people, Donald Trump being the latest, have made a good buck on hate, why, in your opinion, is it different for a black man?
Gro, you are asking a question above this guys pay grade.
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@Allen Shaw.
Please, don’t be ignorant to the suffering of slaves today. There are no longer, as far as I’m aware, slave ships carrying hoards across nations and slavery is illegal in every single country in the world but when thousands of 4 year old’s are drugged and bound and carried for days in hot vehicles without water and then spend the rest of their pitiful lives as sex slaves to depraved old men who can do as they wish to them. Or Kim Jong-un forces men to live and labour for years in Poland with threats to the lives of their families should they try to escape. Or impoverished Africans and Indians are forced to sell their loved ones into a life of servitude of sex in the belief they are going to a better life where they will not die from starvation, or Isis take little boys as forced solders under the threat of death to their whole village and so on and so on and so on…. Then you know there is a problem with slavery in the world. Then you know that slavery should never be forgotten or brushed aside as ancient history. Then you know that the history of slavery as well as modern concept has to be taught to all children so that us in the parts of the world where it is slightly less prevalent can help to end it once and for all. I can tell you Allen Shaw that the chance of there being not one slave in the town or city where you live are pretty slim. Never be ambiguous about it. They have not a single right in the world. Slaves in other parts of the world are even less likely to find salvation as the regimes they live under do not care in the least.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I thought the Irish national anthem was ‘Whisky in the Jar-O’ By Thin Lizzy!
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@Solitare: Precisely
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“I thought the Irish national anthem was ‘Whisky in the Jar-O’ By Thin Lizzy!”
.
ROFLOL!!
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@Mary Burrell
Thank You!!!
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@Taotesan
Welcome back with your steady stream of pointy nails!!!!
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“…I have had the privilege of seeing performed by traditional musicians in Ireland. The tune was adapted to an American Civil War song, “We’ll Fight for Uncle Sam…”
.
Zzzzzzzzz… Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.. Zzzzz
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I think overall Allen Shaw had good intentions but just way too much ignorance. The past effects the future and there are millions that are stuck in cycle that is capped from escape.
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TeddyBearDaddy
I agree, but he allows his ignorance to blind him. He is dismiss any and everything commenters present because he wants to see it his way.
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@ Herneith
“I don’t know if any were a part of the Colonial Marines, though.
I’d bet they were. I’d bet they were ass-kickers who took no prisoners and suffered no fools.
Just a hunch 🙂
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@The Murky man
We used to sing it on the school bus home, The bus would shake so hard it nearly fell over when we stamped our feet during the chorus. Sure t’was a great craic!
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Well at least i learned a new word in the midst of this Colin Kaepernick dust up. Jingoism extreme over the top patriotism.
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Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
informative topical
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I’m sorry, I can’t stand this promotion of the UK Army.”
But I wasn’t promoting the UK Army. I was speaking solely about the fighting contingent of US slaves who formed just one part of the UK Army.
Look, we’re back at the same point of contention again. I don’t agree with your dichotomous thinking. There is no ethnic, racial, religious, or national group in existence that is purely good or purely evil. All have done great things, all have done harmful things.
And I have to give props to the Brits for this one. They did the right thing in freeing those slaves instead of turning them back over to the Americans.
It doesn’t sound like they got the best treatment up in Canada, from what Herneith said, so even that has shades of gray. But overall the British and the Canadians did better by this group of runaway slaves than the Americans (North or South) would have done.
It does not in any way mean I’m giving a pass to the English for their treatment of the Irish. That’s an entirely different issue, one in which I largely agree with you.
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@ Mary Burrell:
I agree! Ms. Houston’s rendition is definitely the best! I’ve listened to many renditions of “The Star Spangled Banner” and I have to say the performances leave a lot to be desired. However, with the exception of a former teen Filipina singer named Charice Pempengco, I think Whitney would agree Charice did some justice to the song.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WG4IkWqHtg)
Sidenote: Charice Pempengco also sang “God Bless America”. I think she sang it way better than “The Star Spangled Banner”.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJUg3wHoRIY)
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@Allen Shaw
“Hate will destroy you and reduce you to nothing.”
Hate and anger are two different emotions. I wish you were clear about the difference.
Living in a rose colored bubble and believing in the “Good Intentioned White Folks”* can put unwary Black people on the road to Perdition.
Please wake up, Allen Shaw.
* I’m referring to the White Power Establishment, not individual European descent persons.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“A big part of me just doesn’t know what to think about parts of the American Revolution, for example. On the one hand, the British freed a lot of slaves with Dunmore’s Proclamation and brought them to Nova Scotia or Sierra Leone. On the other hand, the Revolution established a more democratic alternative to monarchy, one from which other countries, not least Ireland, drew inspiration.”
So why not just think exactly that? There was good and bad on both sides. No one’s asking you to wholeheartedly support the Revolution as if it were happening today. Seeing the shades of gray actually leads to a fuller understanding of the complexities of the situation.
I mean, I still don’t support the British aim in the War of 1812 of retaking their American colonies. We’d made it very clear we didn’t want to bow to their king, and they should have left us alone. But Abagond’s post has taught me some things I didn’t know that have changed how I feel about certain aspects of the war and helped me to see some areas where white Americans of the time failed to live up to their vaunted ideals.
“An interesting historical comparison, similarities and differences, would be the Colonial Marines and the black troops in the Union Army during the Civil War. Any thoughts?”
I don’t think I know enough about the Colonial Marines yet to make a comprehensive comparison, although it is an interesting topic and perhaps some historian out there has already published an article on it. Obviously there’s a big comparison between the runaway slaves who joined the British Army to gain their freedom and the runaway slaves who formed the “contraband” troops in the Union Army. But we shouldn’t forget, either, that there were also free blacks from the North who were part of the Union Army as well.
One thing I don’t know is whether the British in the War of 1812 had vowed to end slavery in America if they conquered their former colonies, or if they only were promising freedom to those individuals who fought for them, as a type of incentive or payment.
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@LOM – my favorite dolt here!
“Flexing my middle finger at the screen right now…”
First you call me an azzh0le, now you’re flipping me the bird.
Don’t Irish parents teach their brood any manners anymore? No?
Perhaps a person of color will teach your misplaced valetudinarian middle (alcoholic) finger where/how to find its proper station.
🙂
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@leigh204: I do remember Charice Pempengco she was on the Opraph Winfrey show some years ago when Oprah showcased young and upcoming singers. She was impressive she was a big Whitney Houston fan she sang I Have Nothing Without You.
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@Allen Shaw
Don’t use the term ‘blacks’ in that way. it’s like saying ‘you people’ or sneering. black people are just that- People – not inanimate objects, not socks or fishing boats! Have a little respect for your fellow human beings please. It is racist and reflects badly on other white people.
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LOM
“Particularly when we are insulted on the basis of our Irishness.Which is one of your favorite lines of attack.”
.
Which is mainly the only subject you indulge in. Curious that you come to a site that is primarily about Black people and their issues to discuss the Irish.
You finally got around to starting your own blog, but YOU ARE STILL here pushing the Irish like an unwanted street drug. When someone demonstrates disinterest and becomes tired and bored with your machinations you become upset.
If the people here were overly concerned/interested in white people’s history, we’d probably wouldn’t come to THIS site. Speaking strictly for myself though, I come here to escape people with a one trick pony, such as yourself.
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@Zoe Jordan
I think Allen Shaw is of visible African descent. That makes his clueless comments so much worse.
Unfortunately there are many African Americans who subscribe to “respectability politics”, wherein they believe if they just “behave” correctly that White people will finally recognize their humanity and end their anti-Black attitudes and behaviors.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/respectability-politics/
So very sad.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“I was actually in the middle of an intelligent discussion with an intelligent commenter”
Oh, there have been times you wouldn’t have given me credit for possessing one brain cell.
I really do believe most of the “anti-Irish” remarks directed your way come not from deeply-held anti-Irish sentiments but from frustration over what many people feel is your tendency to redirect conversations about African Americans (and other POC) into long discourses on the Irish. I believe a few commenters said as much over on the Jacques thread.
There’s nothing wrong with being proud of your Irish roots, but you interject it into so many different topics that you do come off as tone-deaf to POC concerns and preoccupied with your own Irishness.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Do you mean this one?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/08/30/the-star-spangled-banner/#comment-333684
Yes, I did, but I don’t feel I know enough about the War of 1812 to have much more to add to what you wrote.
I just wonder how things would have been different if the British had actually declared one main objective to the war was ending slavery. If they’d done so and been able to spread that message, and if they’d concentrated on some serious fighting and liberating in the slave states, then it might have gone more like the Civil War, with black men both free and slave enlisting in much larger numbers for the British cause.
But as you noted, the British at that time weren’t all that far advanced in their attitudes towards slavery and their colonial subjects. The British Empire was fairly notorious for their treatment of people of color whether or not they were technically free. It’s possible that if the British had won the war, the American colonies might have ended up looking something like South Africa, with plenty of segregation, discrimination, and oppression.
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@Afrofem: If this Allen Shaw is a black man then that’s worse a respectability negro. This man clearly lives in a bubble. And what’s worse than a boot licker. I tell I have no respect for those type of individuals. Those types are sell outs. And I have a visceral disdain for those types.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“It could also have made the possibility of New England secession more likely.”
Maybe. Don’t forget New England’s pivotal role in the War for Independence, especially Massachusetts, which was a hotbed of sedition. Massachusetts had been flaunting British control ever since the Massachusetts Bay colonists stole their charter right before they set sail across the Atlantic and then spent decades refusing direct orders to return the charter to London.
1776 is only 36 years from 1812. There would have been plenty of Americans in their mid to late 40s who remembered the war, even more in their 50s and 60s who had fought in it. There would have still been deep personal grudges from those who had lost family members, whose towns had been the sites of battles, who had British soldiers quartered in their homes, etc.
“I still don’t know if a British victory in the war would have been a good thing”
It would have been different. Some things would have been better, others the same, others worse.
“They might even have treated Ireland and other colonies more harshly, knowing that they had no republic to flee to.”
The immigration pattern most likely would have been very different. They may not have allowed the massive Irish immigration during the Famine. They may have greatly restricted immigration from Germany, France, Italy, Russia, etc. On the other hand, going by what they did elsewhere, we might have had a sizable South Asian population very early on, especially Sikhs.
“The freed slaves would not have had the right to vote if they did not meet the UK’s property requirements, and if any of them happened to be Catholic they would have been off the list as well.”
Possibly the British would have set color barriers. Hard to predict. I’m not sure what they did in Canada as far as blacks’ right to vote, but in some other places they colonized, they had no problem restricting voting rights to white people only.
Which actually raises another interesting question. If the British had won the 1812 war, when would women have gotten the vote, if at all? The first women’s right movement — which included but was not limited to the suffrage movement — began in 1848 in the U.S. as a direct outgrowth of the anti-slavery movement (partly because female abolitionists began to see how their legal status paralleled that of slaves, partly because female abolitionists — whether black like Maria W. Stewart or white like Angelina Grimke — were being told by male abolitionists that they as women had no right to lecture and publish anti-slavery works). In the 1810s, there were a few women (and men) in the US, UK, and Europe writing about women’s issues, but there was no organized movement. It was the American abolitionists who took what they’d learned about organizing in the anti-slavery movement and applied that to building a women’s movement. It’s true that British women had a formidable (and very rowdy) suffrage movement, but they got the idea from Americans. It’s also true that women in much of Europe got the right to vote before American women did, but we still were the instigators and the originators of the cause. If the British had won the War of 1812, and if they had abolished slavery, there would have been no American anti-slavery movement. Where and how would the women’s suffrage movement have arisen?
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@ Afrofem
Goodness!
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@ Mary Burrell
I guess we are all in a bubble about something. For Allen Shaw, it is causes of Black misery.
I’ve met some Black folk like that, always harping on what Black folk are doing wrong, while ignoring the system of oppression all around us. Black people are not perfect, we are just people. Even some Black people want to turn a blind eye to the burden of race and oppression we carry everyday…and how it weighs us down.
Plus, it’s not like White people are shining examples of perfect humanity….
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“In the event of British victory in the War of 1812 on an anti-slavery war platform, couldn’t British abolitionists conceivably have done the same thing?”
Good question. I’m not sure if all the pieces would have fallen into place, though. One very important element was the Society of Friends (Quakers). They’d originated in England, but they’d been persecuted badly and many fled to the American colonies (where they also were persecuted for a time, but gradually gained more acceptance and flourished here in a way they did not in Britain).
Quakers didn’t follow Paul’s dictum about women being seen but not heard. From the earliest days, Quaker women were able to stand up before their fellow worshippers and preach or testify as the spirit moved them. Quaker men listened to the women just as they listened to the men. No one told them the Bible forbade it.
So, I’m sure you know that the Quakers were very important in the American anti-slavery movement. Angelina Grimke, who I mentioned above, was a Quaker, but it wasn’t until the 1830s that she embarked on her anti-slavery speaking tour that brought so much criticism on her head and impelled her to defend women’s participation in public life.
Lucretia Mott was also a Quaker, and she was really the catalyst for the organization of the women’s rights movement. She had been elected as one of the American delegates to the World Anti-Slavery Convention held in London, England, in 1840. When the English organizers found out, they were appalled and refused to let her take her place with the other delegates or to address the convention. She and several other American women who were attending the convention were forced to sit up in a gallery away from the men, where they spent much of the convention laying the groundwork for what would, eight years later, become the women’s rights movement.
I don’t know if it could have happened in Britain at the same time period: no Quakers, no republican democracy, not to mention the influence of Native American women on the founders of the movement. Much more adherence to custom and propriety and the strictures of the Church of England. Something would have had to happen to shake all that up.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
By the way, your hero William Lloyd Garrison was so furious over the treatment of the American women that he sat up in the gallery with them and refused to participate in the convention’s proceedings, which meant all the English abolitionists who’d been looking forward to hearing Garrison speak had shot themselves in the foot. Charles Lenox Remond, who was one of the leading African American abolitionists at that time, also sat in the women’s gallery in silent protest and solidarity.
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@Afrofem: All of that’s true about whites not being shining examples and there are many respectability negroes with rose colored glasses bless their hearts.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I shouldn’t have said “no Quakers” in England in the 1840s. That was a bit of an exaggeration. They did exist and in fact were heavily involved in the British anti-slavery movement. But to the best of my recollection, they were more marginalized than in the U.S., and I don’t believe Quaker abolitionist women in England were insisting on their right to speak in public before mixed audiences (i.e., both men and women) the way their American counterparts did.
Like Garrison, Frederick Douglass was an early supporter of women’s rights. At the first women’s rights convention in 1848, suffrage almost didn’t get included as a topic to be discussed: most of the organizers felt it was too radical. But Douglass thought it was the most essential right women could ask for and promised Elizabeth Cady Stanton behind the scenes that he would support her if she brought suffrage up for motion, which he did and which helped sway sentiment over to the pro-suffrage side.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
“Once again, not a lot of black-and-white morality in the world!”
No, there really isn’t. The progressives of that era had their struggles with recognizing deeply ingrained stereotypes and understanding what we would now call intersectionality, just as we do today.
Elizabeth Cady Stanton later employed some negative Irish stereotypes herself, along with stereotypes about the freedmen and the Chinese. The point she was trying to make was that if you’re going to give the vote to men who are recent immigrants and newly freed slaves, it doesn’t make sense to then tell highly educated American women that they don’t understand U.S. politics and government well enough to have the right to vote. But the language she used to make this argument was really offensive and indefensible. She is a historical figure that I admire in many ways, but I also recognize that she had faults — this being one of the most glaring — that I can’t excuse or overlook.
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@ Abagond
Please, Abagond have mercy on us 🙂
Fan… said:
“Which is mainly the only subject you indulge in. Curious that you come to a site that is primarily about Black people and their issues to discuss the Irish.
You finally got around to starting your own blog, but YOU ARE STILL here pushing the Irish like an unwanted street drug. When someone demonstrates disinterest and becomes tired and bored with your machinations you become upset.
If the people here were overly concerned/interested in white people’s history, we’d probably wouldn’t come to THIS site. Speaking strictly for myself though, I come here to escape people with a one trick pony, such as yourself.”
Fan… I couldn’t agree more. Btw, I am more of a lurker( who enjoys your commentary very much).
@ Abagond
You have created an ‘Open Thread’, a ‘Broken Records’ section, a post especially for Jacques and a Oppression Olympics post. In that vein, could you not spare some of your lurkers and commenters narcolepsy, by specially creating a section for victims of Hibernophobia where they can indulge to their hearts content their version of history, heavily peppered with their imaginary ethnic persecutions away from ‘less intelligent commenters’?
Gold medallists in Oppression Olympics, respectable Blacks, trolls can also have lovely discussions in that section.
Masochistic Black commenters, in need of much required sleep, can lurk there,too.
White commenters do not have feel to discriminated against: (a ‘special space for special people’) to discuss to their hearts content the minutiae of their history in “intelligent discussion with (other) intelligent (white) commenter(s)” away from Hibernophobes, Francophobes , or whatever.
And for the lurkers and commenters who come to your blog, to get from away from their nonsense in real life, when seeing the thread on the side panel, skip it over, sparing us from dying of boredom.
Name suggestions: ‘Special Snowflake Section’, ‘Pachyderms Paradise’, ‘white mythology’, ‘white history’, ‘how the west was won’ or ‘whites only’.
Written tongue in cheek.
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@ Taotesan
First, thank you very much. I enjoy your presence and comments here also!
I like “white mythology.” And, this one:
We Are The Borg! We Will Wear You Out (and Assimilate You) Into Whiteness/Boredom!
(No tongue in-cheek!)
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I am sure my question will not get answered but here goes anyway. ..
LoM
You have a proud Irish heritage. You feel that the injustices the Irish faced aligns them with other minorities who also had/are suffering in justices.
First question, whilst interesting, how do you think discussiobs about Irish history are helpful to any PoC that access this blog with the real problems and issues they still face today based on the colour of their skin?
Can I ask you to answer honestly have you…
Ever been pulled over for the cop to discover you have an Irish surname and make it clear that even though you did nothing wrong, you are in danger of being stitched up anyway?
Have you ever walked in to a bar and have the place go silent because they can tell you are of Irish extraction?
Gone for an interview to find a fixed grin on the hiring managers face when he tells you he thought you would look different because of your name (s) and just know you are not going to get that job?
On the surface to many people these might seem like life’s normal occupational hazards, I disagree.
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“… discussion I was having about the War of 1812, black troops, and abolitionism in the U.S. and Britain.”
.
… and the irish, of course!
Or is that obvious to everyone except YOU??
.
.”Way off topic for here. Maybe I’ll go to the Open Thread.”
I’ve seen you go way farther off-topic with your incessant drivel about the irish on numerous threads. Stop avoiding Omipresent’s legitimate questions!
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LoM
Looks like the comment has bitten the dust!
Appreciate you may only be able to give a less detailed response but would still be interested in your answers to the questions I posed.
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You can fool your own self but you aren’t fooling anyone else. You are a white irish (racist suspect … though most likely without the “suspect”) dude.
Did you get that? white, White, WHITE irish person.
The irish had an opportunity not to become (racists) white. They chose otherwise. They/y’all (and you!) chose to become WHITE.
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mirkwood
not. a. single. syllable. from. you. in. my. direction.
clear? okay.
@Omnipresent
Forget about an honest answer.
@ Fan..
“We Are The Borg! We Will Wear You Out (and Assimilate You) Into Whiteness/Boredom!
(No tongue in-cheek!)”
I can second that.
You might like this one: “Lies I tell my schoolchildren”.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I have always wondered why did Jimi (The Greatest) Hendrix had played the Star- Spangled Banner. Was it some kind of ‘f*ck you’ to white supremacy? Was he against the Vietnam War? I don’t get it.
I could only find a sliver of information in Wikipedia .
“The Star-Spangled Banner”, during which he used copious amounts of amplifier feedback, distortion, and sustain to replicate the sounds made by rockets and bombs. Although contemporary political pundits described his interpretation as a statement against the Vietnam War, three weeks later Hendrix explained its meaning: “We’re all Americans … it was like ‘Go America!’..”
Regardless, Jimi Hendrix version of the American anthem brings paroxysms of pleasure. Whitney Houston’s too.
As a non- American I hate American patriotism in line with all the human rights abuses and atrocities it has left in its wake domestically and internationally.
So, watching the Olympic Games 2016 , and cheering Brianna Rollins, Nia Ali Kristi Castlin, Simone Biles, Simone Manuel et al, on the podium with their (much deserved) gold medals, when the Star-Spangled Banner is played, that is my cue to change channels.
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@Taotesan
“I hate American patriotism in line with all the human rights abuses and atrocities it has left in its wake domestically and internationally. … when the Star-Spangled Banner is played, that is my cue to change channels”
.
Amazing Hypocrisy!!
And an amazing PRETENSE.
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@ Abagond
Could you please ask/ tell this mirkwood person not to address me directly?
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“IRISH and NOTHING ELSE!!!! I’ve made up my mind to express that on all future Census forms and any other documents asking for such information. DO NOT CALL ME WHITE!!! EVER!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
.
l might believe you if you place a full page ad in Times or People’s magazine. Until then you’ll always be the over privileged white (irish) person that YOU are.
Are your mums and pops white? Yes?
Then you’re white!
You even act white… lol.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Please do not address taosetan directly. You may still comment on her comments, though. No one’s comments are off-limit to civil disagreement.
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@taosetan @Lord of Mirkwood
Do not directly address each other or make any personal remarks about the other. You can still comment on the other’s comments.
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LoM
Thank you for your response. Having read it and your most recent responses on this post I feel it is important to say this to you.
No matter how much YOU reject your whiteness this is the only way your white peers will see you. This construct was made and still prevails today. Amongst other whites they will allow you to present yourself in the way you do on here without penalty whereas any PoC holding such strong views would be constantly having to watch their back! The differences in treatment are undoutably a result of the white privilege you benefit from and no matter how vehement you are about not being aligned with whiteNess, as you live and breathe now is all down to your skin tone. So how this relates to the questions I asked you it means that:-
* Being mistreated by the police is not foremost in your mind
*You can go to many places and not consider being subjected to mistrust and scrutiny based on your skin shade
* You will attend an interview and trust they are evaluating you on your skills and experience not on the colour of your skin
These are such simple things that white people don’t have to think about but the tip of tge iceberg for a PoC. Dunno about you but I am just striving to survive, it would do my head in to have to think like this on the daily!
I am all for people empathising with others due to life experiences however when you constantly bemoan being labelled white and try to align yourself with those having real life experiences based on the colour of their skin, you are effectively undermining these situations.
I would urge you, when putting your opinions out there, consider whether what YOU are going through really is what others are experiencing and not using it as an excuse to hijack a conversation to make this about you
Btw, I am from the UK too and whilst there is much in common between Irish and Black’s historically I have yet to meet one that rejects their whiteness over being Irish, as far as they are concerned they are both!
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“Amazing Hypocrisy!!
And an amazing PRETENSE.”
The minute I saw Colin Kaepernick on Al Jazeera News, I knew the daggers would be out for him. Now, American football is not something I am interested in, but the conscientious and brave stance taken by Kaepernick is something to be applauded.
“Then there was Buffalo Bills coach Rex Ryan who stated, “You’ve got to look at the gifts that we have, the opportunity that we have to play a great game is through the men and women that serve our country” in uniform. Apparently coach Ryan wants us to believe that without members of the U.S. military operating in foreign bases all across the globe, invading countries and causing bloodshed, American football players would not be able to “play a great game.”
More from a very good article:
(https://ushypocrisy.com/2016/09/01/the-lynch-mob-has-come-for-colin-kaepernick/)
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@ Abagond
That suits me fine as I have never directly engaged with this commenter except to tell him to ……
I am not interested in his comments or his viewpoints at all.
It is your writing and the mostly Black views in which I am interested in anyway, which is why I had addressed my tongue in cheek piece to you earlier.
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“Apparently coach Ryan wants us to believe that without members of the U.S. military operating in foreign bases all across the globe, invading countries and causing bloodshed, American football players would not be able to “play a great game.”
@Taotesan
Sadly a significant numbers of Amerikans actually believe this nonsense.
The US may very well be the most dumbed down population on the planet.
Perhaps if Amerikans were a little less preoccupied with sports and more involved in the real world, the US military might NOT be operating in foreign bases all across the globe.
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Well if coach Ryan wants to spout that malarkey about them being able to play football because of the military troops then why are Americans veterans neglected so horribly? There is so much b.s. being touted. This attack on Kaepernick is not about patriotism it’s nationalist/whiteness and it’s about making a person of color bow down to the icons that many in the dominant culture revere. So much hypocrisy being played out here it’s disgusting.
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“I’m not understanding the argument that soldiers died in Afghanistan so that Colin Kaepernick could be free and wealthy, and he’s disrespecting them by declining to stand for the national anthem and/or complaining about racism. Was some army of poppy farmers and goat-herders threatening to abolish American football, and I completely missed it?”
From a FB statis ….
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@TheHipHopRecords
Excellent cartoon!
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@LoM
I don’t know how to let you know otherwise but I have responded to your post on the Open Thread
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ducks head
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Seriously, I just saw this blow-up now and I apologize for the thread drift and my part in it.
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Jimi Hendrix was not particularly anti-war at the time of Woodstock. In 1967 he even did a radio spot urging young men to serve in the army, as he had done in the early 1960s.
He was probably attracted to “The Star-Spangled Banner” mainly as a musical challenge to see what he could do with a piece of music you hear so much that it has lost its freshness. He did the same to “God Save the Queen”, “Little Drummer Boy”. “Auld Lang Syne” and “Silent Night”.
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For me Hendrix’s rendition of the Star Spangled Banner was played crass on purpose. It was no longer clean and clear but a nightmarish distortion of what the country claimed to represent.
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@ Lord of Murkwood
TBF if you came home to Ireland we would call you a white American. You may or may not be British, I have no idea but I tend to believe you when you say you’re not, but come on dude, You don’t help the Irish with your anti British hate. We are a nation of loving people. The IRA is dead and we do not hate the British here. You just come across as an ignorant American caught in a time warp.If you were to sit in a pub in Ireland and talk about England the way you do on here most people would think you’re a little touched.I have nothing against you personally,you make me chuckle and you’re clearly intelligent and educated. I say this with love so please take this in the spirit in which it is meant.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I’m a plastic paddy like yourself. born in London of mixed dissent, moved to and educated in Cork, moved back to London 30 years ago. My Mum, Dad, Brother stayed there. You do come across like you hate the British I have to say. Hope my comment didn’t offend you. 🙂
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Right now I’m in Barcelona! Buenas noches!
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“Amazing Hypocrisy!!
And an amazing PRETENSE”
In order to discuss/understand American hypocrisy as it is manifested in its foreign policy in terms of its imperialism with its massive human rights abuses and as the worlds greatest threat to world peace as world’s greatest terrorist in the modern times expressed in US exceptionalism. I have started reading Professsor Horne’s well-researched book: “The Counter-Revolution of 1776: slave resistance and the founding of the United States of America” which casts a bright light in understanding America in its foundation state.
So, out of the ‘American Revolutionary War, it was never intended to establish a democracy, except for the elite. What the lower-class whites got out of that ‘was a regime they believe would preserve the doctrine of white supremacy for eternity”. The establishment of the world’s first apartheid state.
“The US flag stands for “the land of the free” – that triumphed over slaves fighting for their freedom!
The US wanted the 6,000 freed slaves back as “property”, but Britain settled them in Canada and Trinidad.”
Although not in the same time period: the war (ARW) was never fought for liberty, freedom and justice.
Professor Horne shatters the ‘origin myth’. If one reads his well-researched book, it will illuminate the trajectory to the modern day, the hypocrisy of the high sounding moralizing American exceptionalism, and one can deduce the reasons for the US backing every single white supremacist state: Rhodesia, South Africa, Australia ( and the overthrow of democratically elected leaders with military dictators.)
In “The Counter Revolution of 1776,” Professor Horne turns the traditional ‘heroic’ creation myth of the US on its head, in that it was not founded on ‘liberty and *freedom” (as we understand these words today), with slavery, as an uncomfortable vestige of the past, but that the USA WAS FOUNDED ON SLAVERY – ‘as a defense of slavery’
So, the principles that Americans that are ‘held to be self-evident’ were those that defined African people who were worked to death as chattel in the original colony/ies as property and not as people. The Founding Fathers were capitalists who, like their descendants, believed that *freedom was inherent in the right to OWN property( African People) and dispose of ‘it’/them as one sees fit.
” The land of the free” takes on a whole different meaning when understands what the definition of freedom meant to the capitalistic founding fathers.
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Correction : Quotation marks : ” Out of the ‘American Revolutionary War, it was never intended to establish a democracy, except for the elite…… eternity”
Caleb Gee
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Well as you continue to read and grasp the facts of life, which have been obvious to anyone who has ever read any history, welcome to knowledge.
Now it makes no difference what went on in the past, it is up to those of you who would become the new leaders to provide a path to the future that offers a better tomorrow.
Wasting time shouting out about the horrible conditions of yesterday, which everyone already was aware of or should have been aware of, does nothing to help the future.
What are you going to do now? How will you assist in educating those individuals who are having difficult time learning?
How do you stop our youth from becoming victims of the drug trade while failing to report the drug dealers in the neighborhood?
What can you do, without money, to better your community?
If you believe that ALL White People are bad, what are you going to do? You do not expect BAD people to help you do you?
Now fill the pages up with all of the past horrible things that have happened and ignore any assistance that has been given or start out by helping each other.
Not one word that has been written in the past year has been newly discovered. It has been in books that have been published for years and years.
Your parents and grandparents were aware of it and did their very best to improve the conditions, now it is your turn to improve things not burn the system down, there is nowhere to go but here.
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@Allen Shaw
“How do you stop our youth from becoming victims of the drug trade while failing to report the drug dealers in the neighborhood?”
Good question.
Lets start with whose bringing those drugs into the country and then into Black neighborhoods and communities? Who is doing that, who permits that, who profits greatly from it?
Who do you think is laundering all that cash money? Black people??
Dealers/users in da hood are the intended PRODUCT of the crib to prison pipeline. The system isn’t going to be corrected by becoming respectable.
There’s a top heavy layer that’s responsible for the rigged bottom levels.
I know this is not likely to register to you in your rose colored bubble, so I’ll won’t waste anymore of my time on your fantasies.
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@ Fan
Is Allen Shaw blowing his rose colored bubbles again?
According to “Mr. Respectability”, if those trifling, uncouth Black people would just act more like those hardworking, refined White people all the problems in the Black community would be solved.
A system of institutional White Supremacy is not the problem, it is Black outrage at historical slights (especially that noxious Black history).
You are right, maybe the best course is to let Allen Shaw float to the Land of Oz on his rose colored bubbles and dance down the yellow brick road until he meets the Wizard.
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“Lets start with whose bringing those drugs into the country and then into Black neighborhoods and communities? Who is doing that, who permits that, who profits greatly from it?
Who do you think is laundering all that cash money? Black people??”
So all the good people who know who the local drug dealer are remain silent because a Mexican Drug Lord or some “WHITE men ,( and of course no Black people,) with money bring the drugs to the community are the winners.
Are you to be a leader of the future or are you just a person who can write words?
The user of alcohol, drugs, food, clothes, overpriced shoes and automobile, and any other item of desire is responsible for their choices. Stop trying to make them helpless victims.
When an individual brags about owing more than 100 pair of shoes, or twenty automobiles it is their choice, no one made them do it.
When the welfare checks are distributed and the money goes to a “boy friend”, instead of the children, it is a personal choice. No one made them do it.
Talking about “Who do you think is laundering all that cash money? Black people??”
Yes, Black people do participate. It is you who has their head stuck in the sand.
“There’s a top heavy layer that’s responsible for the rigged bottom levels.”
Yesterday, meaning past history, this may have been a fact; however with all of the programs that currently exist, I doubt if you could actually justify your statement. Most school districts have been authorized Charter Schools to off set the poor public school systems. The local public can become involved and participate in those schools.
Practically every poor family get free day care, free medical care and free housing and food stamps. Who are you talking about that is controlled by some top heavy layer.
More Black students are graduating from college today, many having received free scholarships, which means they do not have to repay for their education.
You make general statements which you cannot truly support; however it sounds good, the same as complaining about the intents of the people that lived 200 years ago.
What ever there intend was it has changed and today it is the responsibility of today’s Black people of means to take up the mantle and help improve the lot of those who may have the inability to learn at the same rate as they may have learned.
To deny a variation in mental capability is to lie to oneself.
There are over 40 million Black people living in the United States. There is no reason why a positive movement to improve the lives of Black people, by Black people, without resorting to violence or begging cannot be accomplished. Asking the federal government for more help then they are currently giving needs to be though out carefully.
The statement “Be careful what you ask for, you might get it” needs to be considered.
And once again, stop going back through to history, which no one can do anything about, and trying to stir up discontent.
I do not read the negative comments that are directed at me. If you desire curse me. damn me, wish I would go the he–, however try to read what I say and after you spend a few days calling me any names you wish think about what I have written.
When you do not like the message kill the messenger!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger
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@Allen Shaw:💤💤💤💤💤💤😴😴😴😴💤💤💤Big Yawn.
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@Mary Burrell
Like! LOL!
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Afrofem: Sister you have been dropping some gems on this forum, I see you.👀👀👀🤓
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“Lets start with whose bringing those drugs into the country and then into white neighborhoods and communities? Who is doing that, who permits that, who profits greatly from it?
Who do you think is laundering all that cash money? White people??”
So all the good people who know who the local drug dealer are remain silent because a Mexican Drug Lord or some “BLACK men ,( and of course no white people,) with money bring the drugs to the community are the winners.
Are you to be a leader of the future or are you just a person who can write words?
The user of alcohol, drugs, food, clothes, overpriced shoes and automobile, and any other item of desire is responsible for their choices. Stop trying to make them helpless victims.
When an individual brags about owing more than 100 pair of shoes, or twenty automobiles it is their choice, no one made them do it.
When the welfare checks are distributed and the money goes to a “boy friend”, instead of the children, it is a personal choice. No one made them do it.
(So how do welfare recipients come about owning 100 pairs of shoes and 20 cars?)
Talking about “Who do you think is laundering all that cash money? White people??”
Yes, white people do participate. It is you who has their head stuck in the sand.
“There’s a top heavy layer that’s responsible for the rigged bottom levels.”
Yesterday, meaning past history, this may have been a fact; however with all of the programs that currently exist, I doubt if you could actually justify your statement. Most school districts have been authorized Charter Schools to off set the poor public school systems. The local public can become involved and participate in those schools.
Practically every poor family get free day care, free medical care and free housing and food stamps. Who are you talking about that is controlled by some top heavy layer. (Teacher Unions)
More white students are graduating from college today, many having received free scholarships, which means they do not have to repay for their education. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php…
White people make general statements which you cannot truly support; however it sounds good, the same as complaining about the intents of the people that lived 200 years ago.
What ever there intend was it has changed and today it is the responsibility of today’s white people of means to take up the mantle and help improve the lot of those who may have the inability to learn at the same rate as they may have learned.
To deny a variation in mental capability is to lie to white people.
There are over 40 million white people living in the United States. There is no reason why a positive movement to improve the lives of white people, by white people, without resorting to violence or begging cannot be accomplished. Asking the federal government for more help then they are currently giving needs to be thought out carefully.
The statement “Be careful what you ask for, white people might take it” needs to be considered.
And once again, stop going back through white history, which Black people can do nothing about, and trying to stir up discontent.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Nice satire! (chuckle)
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@MJB: That was clever i see what you did there.👌🏾
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“Are you to be a leader of the future or are you just a person who can write words?”
Allen,
The only soul I’m leading into the future (am responsible for) is my own. I am my own leader. Not waiting on another.
I’m not in a cage, and I’m still breathing, thus far. Not that easy a task in today’s Amerika for a brutha (or sistah).
How many people are you attempting to lead upward – without written words – aside from the (apparently lazy, wayward & hapless) commenters here?
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@ Allen Shaw
Yeah. If you do not like my posts about the past, then do not read them or comment on them. No need to moan and carry on. In fact, in most of my posts I put the dates right up front in the first sentence. You can easily skip over anything from before, say, 1986. See how simple that is?
You apparently believe in Teflon History and do not see how it has been Whitewashed:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/09/teflon-theory-of-history/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/why-american-history-gets-whitewashed/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/hollywood-whitewashing/
I do not see history that way. To me the past is the best way to understand the present. That is where the present came from. And not just in a general way, but down to every last detail.
I also believe that history as learned in the US, through high school and Hollywood, has been Whitewashed, in both senses of the word. Not only is it cleaned up and partly fake, but it has been twisted in a way that supports racism, internalized and otherwise.
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@ Allen Shaw
While we are dispensing advice, here is my advice to you:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/my-advice-to-the-whitewashed/
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Since you have not actually published any information that is new, one wonders what your agenda is.
You say that history has been changed; yet the history is contained in many books which have been written from the days of slavery until today. The fact that you did not read them does not make it true that they were not published.
Read the history of the Abolitionist, any books about Lincoln and any books about Jim Crow. It is all there plain as day. Many current business publications have been produce pointing out the difference in wages and job opportunities between the races as well as women.
Many jobs were open to People of Color during the past 7 years both in the government and private businesses.
The Blacks, African American or People of Color whichever is an acceptable term have been given a raw deal and it is well documented. Government program after government program have been tried to assist in the upward mobility of the people.
My advice is to move on from here.
What do you wish to accomplish?
I did not realize that I had to agree with you.
Outside of the comments changing my comments “thinking that Whites are going to solve Black problems” I have seen no actual response to any of my comments. I also thought that it was quite cute; however it probably did not help any, other then laughing at the messenger.
It makes no difference if the messenger is dumb, stupid or whatever, perhaps you might give some thought to the questions.
Perhaps some real solutions will be offered one of these days.
When you imply that people are whitewashed when they offer advice, perhaps you should specify just what statements are based on that premise and what actual solutions you are proposing.
How is a person whitewashed?
This is a blog and I will be respectful of you and make every attempt to not breach any of your rules as to who can read your blogs; however when you state that history has been rewritten, I would like you to support your writing.
Once I know your agenda, I will know whether to continue to follow you or not.
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@ Allen Shaw
In your comments on this thread, you criticize Abagond for dwelling on the past and presenting information that “isn’t new.”
Yet when Abagond writes about ancient history, you are often quick to express your approval. This is only one example:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/08/06/roman-egypt/#comment-322774
Now, there’s nothing wrong in and of itself with having a preference for the study of certain eras in history. Many people are drawn to specific time periods and not very interested in others.
But what you’re doing goes beyond that. You’re criticizing Abagond on this thread for writing about something historical instead of about the present — a criticism you only seem to make when the historical topic is one that focuses on America’s injustice to black people.
This stands in stark contrast with your comments on his posts about ancient history and makes one wonder what your agenda is.
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@Solitare: Precisely, what is Shaw’s agenda? It’s easy to sit in the cheap seats and give advice when the bad things that are happening to others aren’t happening to them. And it infuriates me that this individual likes to think he is some type of wise sage sitting up on the mountain dispensing wisdom to the ignorant blacks. You see through his b.s. I wonder what does he do to better society?
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According to this site, hireling and slave have entirely different meanings than what is revealed by this post.
http://www.american-historama.org/1801-1828-evolution/star-spangled-banner-lyrics.htm
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@ halfmoonchylde70
Re your link: it does make sense that “hireling” could refer to mercenary Hessian soldiers, since they were “hired” to fight in a war they had no personal stake in.
But I’m not convinced that “slaves” refer to the U.S. sailors who were forcibly impressed by the British. As your source notes, impressment was one of the main causes of the war. Francis Scott Key would have known any such sailors were being forced against their will to fight against their own country. It seems to me he would have had some sympathy for their situation instead of gloating that they could not avoid defeat and death (as he does in that verse). He was less likely to have any sympathy for the runaway black slaves, coming as he did from a slaveholder family.
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Anyway you wish to look at it, they were fighting with the enemy of the United States against the United States and therefore were enemies of the United States.
YOU ARE CONFUSED!
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I constantly hear that white people don’t have souls. Can you please explain how that a good amount of them can become psychics and can ‘connect with god’? I’ve been wanting to know and I can find it anywhere
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eferhildawyvern
Being a psychic has little of nothing to do with having a soul.
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How come none of these ‘physics’ can predict the winning lottery numbers?
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What about the Oliver Wendell Holmes version? That one is clearly against slavery
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