Jacqueline Craig (c. 1970- ) of Fort Worth, Texas called police after a neighbour choked her seven-year-old son. Instead of arresting the neighbour, the police arrested her and her two daughters! She and her daughters are Black, the neighbour and the police officer are White. This was on the south-west side of Fort Worth, part of metropolitan Dallas.
The police will not say who the officer is or make his bodycam video public, citing state law and an ongoing investigation.
On December 21st 2016 the officer calmly talked to the neighbour and then approached Craig (the following is edited for length):
Officer: What’s going on with you?
Craig: My daughter and son came home, saying that this man grabbed him and choked him. I came around here and asked him. I said, “Why did you put your hands on my son?” He said, “Oh, he threw some paper and I told him to pick it up.” He said he defied him and that’s why he did it … you don’t have the right to choke somebody’s son. My son is seven years old, you don’t have the right to grab him and choke him.
Officer: Why don’t you teach your son not to litter?
Craig: He can’t prove to me that my son did or didn’t, but it doesn’t matter. That doesn’t give him the right to put his hands on him.
Officer: Why not?
She gets even more upset. The officer asks why, as if he does not already know. Then:
Officer: If you keep yelling at me, you’re going to piss me off and I’m going [to] take you to jail.
Craig’s 15-year-old daughter jumps in, apparently trying to calm down her mother. The officer pushes her aside and takes down Craig, taser in her back, and arrests her. He threatens her children with his taser. He arrests two of them, ages 15 and 19. Brea Hymond, the 19-year-old, took video.
Notice that both the officer and the neighbour violently upheld deference to Whites.
Charges:
- Craig: resisting arrest, failing to provide identification and three outstanding traffic tickets.
- Hymond: resisting arrest and “interference with public duties”.
- 15-year-old daughter: released without charge.
- White neighbour: no arrest, no charge.
Craig thought she was protecting her son by calling the police.
The video went viral. (There are jumps in the video, reportedly because of incoming calls.)
The police department:
“We acknowledge that the initial appearance of the video may raise serious questions.”
They urge calm and patience while they do a thorough investigation – of themselves.
The police chief, Joel Fitzgerald:
“What I can say is that I noticed in the video that the officer was rude, and there is a difference between rude and racist.”
Lana Sprayberry, principal at a Dallas charter school that is 3% White:
“If you had kept your fat mouth shut the cop would not have had a reason to cuff!”
ACLU: Terri Burke, head of the ACLU in Texas, said the officer:
“ignored basic community policing standards.”
The officer is currently on “restricted duty”.
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- The police
- also in metropolitan Dallas:
- tropes
550
Reading Ms. Sprayberry’s comments makes me think of a strange streak that I’ve been noticing with these white American types (and I include other races in “white American types”). It is almost this slavish obedience to authority, especially when they go about beating up certain non-white American Types (and I include non-Americans in “non-white American types”). That, combined with the belief that:
1. property rights are more important than human rights,
2. mediocre business men like Donald Trump and Elon Musk should be hero-worshipped
3. universal surveillance is just a fact of life
4. militarism and the New Militarist Man are to be aspired to
5. deep class and racial divisions are eternal and inevitable
6. slavish obedience to the hero, the military man or the boss is proper
makes you wonder if there is something going in the American body politic taht wwe should really look out for during these coming 8 years.
By the way, in Europe, Liberalism is the opposite of what is implied in the U.S. So what about Libertarianism?
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Since it looks like privatization of public services is all the rage with things like prisons, schools, space exploration, etc… maybe we should get vouchers for law enforcement like many states have for schools. “Let the market work” as many are so fond of saying. (only half sarcastic) Could you imagine how things might be today if the Black Panthers or Fruit of Islam were paid with vouchers and PD budgets were proportionally cut?
The official statement that the guy was being rude but not racist may seem true on the surface.. he might be one of “those cops” that treats everyone that way (except White ladies whom he flirts with of course). However, I don’t know what protocol is, but the fact he interviewed the accused and took his side prior to interviewing the accuser and did not take the accuser seriously is suspect… add to that the stereotyping of the accuser as an “Angry Black Woman” who needed tone policing before he would listen to facts about an assault on her minor child clearly shows he has no business being an officer of the law.
Don’t police applicants take a civil service psychological exam? Maybe it’s time to update that.
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For understanding the above post – their economic blueprint. Its unacknowledged in the mainstream.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRO1oLa5R5g)
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I hope this teaches Jacqueline Craig and her children a valuable lesson about calling the police for help. And no, it’s not just a few bad apples–it’s the entire system. They are agents of white supremacy whose purpose has always been to control nonwhites, specifically black and red people.
““ignored basic community policing standards.”
And what standards are those? Certainly nothing binding on this officer! He won’t face any criminal charges. “Traditional policing” dominates, not “community policing.”
@Open Minded Observer
“maybe we should get vouchers for law enforcement like many states have for schools.”
+1. Some towns have thrown out their police forces and hired private security forces. While I’d really prefer no policing at all, I’d be in favour of private guards if they subjected their officers to real standards, which if “ignored” would mean mandatory sentencing.
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Is anyone reading about this story really shocked or even surprised? White Supremacists and their allies feel completely unleashed at this historical moment. They will say and do anything in the coming years simply because of their feelings of supreme impunity in the Trump Era.
For Black people, the challenge is not only re-fighting the battles of the past (civil rights, voting rights and ending police brutality), but pushing for true transformation in the social, economic and political spheres. The challenge will involve not accepting crumbs, cosmetics or half measures. Black people should work for change until new systems are in place. Otherwise future Black generations will face this ugliness again and again.
Glen Ford of Black Agenda Report summed up the situation for the next decade and beyond:
Anyone who thought the struggle for justice ended in 1972 is in for a rude awakening. The work has just begun….yet again.
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Satanforce commented,
” property rights are more important than human rights”
That’s right libertariansim. Property rights trump civil rights. The right of business to discriminate.
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I’ve been advocating for privatized police for a while now although I would additionally prefer that those hired match the racial makeup of the neighborhoods they patrol. There are plenty of black owned security firms who I’m sure wouldn’t mind expanding – nationwide even.
As for stating that Jacqueline shouldn’t have called the police – what the heck was she supposed to do? If she “handled” the matter herself with the white neighbor, same thing probably would have happened except white neighbor or some other neighbor would have called the cops. Only scenario I see playing out w/o police involvement is to ignore the incident and take no action. Is that preferable?
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that is ridiculous
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it’s publicly humiliating their whole family without a proper report, you know the staties only show up sometimes in the unincorporated areas, it’s the local yokles, it sounds like the suburbs basically from abagond’s report
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Firing the police force is always an option.
Two more to my list.
7. If you have nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide. And if you have nothing to hide then why would you have a problem with universal surveillance? I’m not dong anything wrong. Why would I mind being watched?
8. The police always right, moral, and should always be trusted. Don’t you watch Dirty Harry and The Wire? Even when they’re bad its because they want to do good, even if just for themselves. So why would you backtalk the people who are right, moral and trustworthy. What does that say about you? After all, if he weren’t right moral and trustworthy, they wouldn’t have given him a gun! Right?
9. A little rough justice is definitely a good thing if it puts miscreants and troublemakers in line. Not everything needs to go through a lengthy trial process. People who are too sassy or who can;t keep their place clean might need a slap in the face, or a night in jail some times. Sometimes they may need a tar and feathering. And sometimes they may need a lyn….. ahem…I mean sometimes some people need o go hang out somewhere else. Wonder if these people forgot about their Hobbes.
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This incident is no surprise. This is what happens when you’re a second class citizen. Which black people have been since our interaction with Europeans. I realize that white folks will never change. They spread murder,rape,colonization and slavery everywhere they go. This is the plight of black people living in Amerikkka.
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“Notice that both the officer and the neighbour violently upheld deference to Whites.”
Deference = large and in charge. Also known as “by golly, I may be poor and toothless, but I’m still White and that counts…now!”
Deference from Black people was always the major social perk for Whites in the pre-Civil Rights South.
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How dare she defy that White man. The gall!
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satanforce,
When I was on a political forum dominated by white “liberals” a few years ago, I posted an article showing how gay men were being abused in prison, and this “liberal” comes on and says that (paraphrasing) _Well, there need to be some consequences for committing crime._ I responded saying going to prison should be punishment enough, but they said that if prison were too nice then it wouldn’t really be punishment. I told them that these are human rights violations, but they just stuck to the script of there needing to be “punishment”. Finally, one white liberal with real principle and backbone, and who is quite scary to contend with, told them off, but already I did not feel safe there as a disabled trans woman.
I don’t know what’s going on lately, but there is something really toxic going around. I was thinking back to the opioid addiction among white people, and I remember when I lived in the South before coming here to California how despondent I was becoming with my situation in transitioning. Like, they weren’t obviously intolerant or bigoted, but instead there is a kind of drip drip drip of invalidation and denial that is hell to experience. I wonder if for a lot of white people there, if they’re not psychopaths or ascending the ladder, come under much the same despondency even without being trans or gay or disabled, and to deal with the society-created “issues” they make themselves high. It’s these kinds of people that just elected Trump, I bet.
Here in California the atmosphere is much better and moving here was like day and night.
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@ Afrofem
Which you’ll never see.
Which you’ll never get.
Which white Americans will continue to ignore.
Which will never end.
Short of the United States being brought to its knees by internal civil war or defeat by an external power with an interest in securing black ascendancy, you will never get these things, no matter how hard you fight. You’ll get close, but grabbing that brass ring is out of the question.
These days, I’m leaning more towards Black Separatism and flipping the ‘white pride’ “14 words” on its head by using it for our own.
“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for black children”
@ J:
I’ve known a few people who would have publically brushed off the incident as NBD (no big deal), only to turn around and call in a few “favors”. Next thing you know, this guy would suddenly find himself in the hospital with more than his fair share of bruises and crushed ribs. Never underestimate someone’s ability to problem-solve sans police intervention.
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Forgot the most important one.
10. Pure Power.
What do I mean by pure power, in this case? Let’s keep it real. This incident, with the McKinney Pool Incident and the one with that Half Asian policeman raping the black junkies who messed up when he graduated to traffic stops, have something in common. Now , I’m not saying that the thing that they have in common is without justification. Seriously, this chick look like 15 to you?
I mean, these black chicks, now don’t get me wrong, I’m encouraging anybody, but these black chicks are already mentally and physically adults. They go through puberty so early, like at 9 years old they’re already budding breasts, that they’re teenagers when our kids are around 10 and 11. No wonder they’re always pushing out babies so young! I mean , ust look at some of those interviews. Them black girls seem awfully well developed , if you ask me…..
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZjHwOHFJGk) Just read the comments.
Now look at their menfolk. Most of these teenagers and the rappers are built like Mike Tyson. So while that young guy may have been 7, he would be built like a 12 year old. Now combine that with his higher bone density and the fact that the guy he confronted was an old guy, they would be basically evenly matched. Look at his Momma and those sisters. You can just feel the sass coming off of them. That’s the thing with black women. They may be female, but they are NOT feminine.
When you get past all those self-justification its still a grown policeman lying on top of a young girl , with his penis and testicles rubbing up and down the small ofher back. The inability to see things from any of these women’ perspective is necessary to gain Pure Power from. The man standing with his pants around his ankles is doing his best not to be able to see from perspective if the black woman (or girl) on her knees in front of him. The thing is that there can only be an exchange of power if the person you are taking it from is an actual human being with feelings and all that fluffy shit. So there are all the above intellectual justifications as to why these guys are doing what they are doing. But they didn’t need them in the 1950s and before. Maybe they wo’t need them again.
Oh, and remember, right-Libertarianism = Authoritarianism
Might want to look at the possibility of returning to the Continent. Lots of economic opportunities there.
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7. If you have nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide. And if you have nothing to hide then why would you have a problem with universal surveillance? I’m not dong anything wrong. Why would I mind being watched?
Other than being caught on camera picking my nose or pulling my drawers out of my buttock crease, I wouldn’t care either as I am doing nothing wrong unless you consider jaywalking a crime!
I was thinking back to the opioid addiction among white people, and I remember when I lived in the South before coming here to California how despondent I was becoming with my situation in transitioning.
They can’t cope with the concept of being ‘powerless’, real or perceived. Hence they ‘escape’ via opiates such as fentanyl(sic) and heroin and vote for Trump. It will be interesting to see if they will ‘lock’ up all these white opiate addicts or try to help them by changing the laws. No three strike for the middle to upper middle-class whites!
makes you wonder if there is something going in the American body politic taht wwe should really look out for during these coming 8 years.
Opiates will be legalized to prevent white addicts from going to prison and causing social and cultural chaos in the white communities. Especially the middle and upper-class ones! The poorer white areas they don’t give a sh*t about except when jury duties( mainstay employment ), bullet fodder for the military, or, when an election occurs. The poorer whites will also act as foils during these elections as it is known they continually vote against their best interests. White supremacy at any costs for these folks.
Is anyone reading about this story really shocked or even surprised?
Nope.
Privatization? Nope. Too many pitfalls in that, just look at the private prisons. Does one honestly think that they will give policing contracts to black firms? Maybe if they are white supremacist in their outlook.
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@ Herneith
long and low chuckle
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@ Mack Lyons
In the short term, we have no viable options that don’t involve struggle.
In the long term (next decade or two), Black folk may have to emigrate to another continent like Russian Jews did after the pogroms of the late 1800s.
Because anti-Black racism is woven into the very fabric of this country, I agree with you that securing equality may be impossible at any time in the future.
“…only to turn around and call in a few “favors”. Next thing you know, this guy would suddenly find himself in the hospital with more than his fair share of bruises and crushed ribs. Never underestimate someone’s ability to problem-solve sans police intervention.”
Ms. Craig would then be the prime suspect in a conspiracy charge. That is a lot more serious than the charges they have slapped her with to punish her for being assaulted by the hoodlum in blue.
Consequences.
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This post shows me the key difference between consequences of the slavery history in America and here in my country. I think that in the USA the slavery conditions were based on race difference and racism, and they still make some flashbacks, but the facts can be duscussed in public and regarded in general as crimes.
In Russia, we had had slavary society, too (up to late 1800s), but it was a same-race slavery society. The slavery flashbacks are also seen in daily life, but they are usually not discussed and regarded as ‘normal’ things.
I think that of the two slavery types, the non-racial slavery is the worst.
Thank you for this and other posts.
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White privilege from start to finish. White people can do whatever the hell they want, and never be held accountable for anything.
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I read these posts with despair and disbelief. I’m not ashamed of being white and British but sometimes I feel a sickness inside which I realise is shame that my people ended up turning into that, and that includes my Irish ancestors who ended up in the States. I cannot even fathom what kind of people they are, as Brothawolf says ‘White Privilege’ gone riot.
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“I read these posts with despair and disbelief.”
i wish I had that option. The option/privilege to read this stuff and disbelieve it.
… the option to believe that my health care is as well attended as a white person whose income, age, insurance, etc is similar to my own – and that my high blood pressure isn’t a by product of living while Black in racist Amerika, and that the medical field is more likely to experiment on me – without my knowledge or permission – than my white counterpart.
… the option to disbelieve that my skin color and physical presence won’t set off silent and other alarms whenever I enter any area under surveillance. Which nowadays is everywhere. Yes, I wish I could disbelieve that I could one day be walking down the street minding by business, and hear POP – POP and then realize I’ve been shot in the back by the Black slave patrol without provocation or warning — for nothing I did. My only crime was that I fit the imagined description in some white racist’s delusion.
Nonetheless, I’m grateful I have the option to believe in the impossible (according to conventional wisdom/conventional thought) that God is still God, and that justice will somehow (even though I don’t know how) prevail in the end. A justice I’ll be most happy to witness, God willing.
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Fan, I use the word ‘disbelief’ because I never get used to the sick feeling I have when I read about this abuse/murder and the consequent cover up/protection of the perpetrators. Of course literally I know it’s true.
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Zoe
“Fan, I use the word ‘disbelief’ because I never get used to the sick feeling I have when I read about this abuse/murder and the consequent cover up/protection of the perpetrators.”
That’s my point, exactly! The sick feeling that you’re not used to is a feeling I and many others don’t have the liberty (or luxury) to put aside or become unused to. This sick feeling is something many Black people carry with them, in some form or another, for an entire lifetime since ________. This “sick feeling” (an extraordinary generational BURDEN in Amerika) that we “get used to” is what keeps many Black people wide awake, alert, vigilant in survival mode and alive, FWIW.
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Fan,
Yes it is the privilege I have of being British. I don’t want to become so desensitised that I no longer feel sick tho tbh.
I feel sick that ‘my people’ ran away from persecution to create that disgusting world over there in which you now live in.
I don’t know what FWIW means
Why do many of you guys spell America with a K?
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for what it’s worth?
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@ Zoe
What I mean when I use the term, Amerika:
The United States of America. RACIST country filled with all manner of corruption/white supremacy/lies/omissions/cover-ups especially as relevant to the worst deeds and attitudes, practices, traditions, history of its government, politicians, policies, laws, wars, education, religion, education, finance, media, entertainment, health, etc. A good amount of the above is covered on this site,
“for what it’s worth?”
Yes.
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Fan
Sorry, I wasn’t clear, what I mean is why u all spell with a K instead of a C?
Happy New Year Everyone, Hope you all have Peace and Love. xxx
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“what I mean is why u all spell with a K instead of a C?”
Zoe,
I don’t know (any more than you do) why other people spell it with a k instead of a c.
Happy New Year.
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@ Zoe
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/amerika
“Origin 1960s; earliest use found in Ann Arbor (Michigan) Argus {an underground newspaper of that era}. Alteration of the name of America, after German Amerika and Russian Amerika, to express associations of fascism and authoritarianism.”
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@ Fan …
Interesting point about high blood pressure. The cumulative stresses of existing in a nation that wishes you didn’t exist and goes out of its way to deny your existence…I wish someone would actually sit down and actually study the medical effects of racism and its various aggressions, macro and micro.
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Mack.
Not even to mention the effect on ones mental health.
http://jech.bmj.com/content/58/12/1017.full
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@ Solitaire
Thank you
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So much wrong with this incident. It could have been handled much better. Why did the white neighbor have his hands on the young boy? Why didn’t he take this incident up with the kid’s mother about him throwing trash in his yard? And the cop didn’t do his job he acted like a racist thug. Thankful the mother and her daughters weren’t shot and killed by this racist mongrel in a blue uniform with a badge and gun. The white man who choked the black kid should be sued. And it really irked me when the police chief who is a black man responded with “The officer was rude but not racist.” Shaking my head. The injustice will continue. I won’t hold my breath about anything being done about this.
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@Mary Burrell
“The white man who choked the black kid should be sued.”
Agreed. Maybe that is one of ten reasons the hoodlum in blue refused to complete a police report. Not having that initial report might make it harder to pursue legal actions against the neighbor.
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Afrofem and Mary.
He shouldn’t be sued he should be imprisoned. It’s GBH against a minor. n prison he would get battered by the other prisoners. No one is forgiving to child abusers.
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@Erika Butler,
I believe a so-called ‘LBGT rights’ movement is nothing but a travesty of struggle for human rights, for this ‘movement’ makes sexual preferences a part of political discourse, whether the attitude of participants be ‘pro’ or ‘contra’. I think it’s just wrong to say race / class minorities are equal to sexual ones, because a sexuality is both biological and social/cultural, while the other criteria are either entirely biological (race, sex and age) or completely cultural / social (religion, ethnicity and class).
I wouldn’t say being a LBGT persosn equals to be ‘disabled’, either.
So this ‘movement’ is actually a kind of public activities paving roads towards a totalitarian society rather than to a ‘free civil community’, unless the gender and sexuality are regarded within a biological scope.
Instead of focusing on general human rights and non-discrimination, it takes a private sexual practice as a topic for public social discussion, Regardless on positive or negative attitude towards LBGT people among persons participating in such discussion , the result will always be the same: general acceptance of the idea of public discussion about the private sexual life, and, in broader sence, the general acceptrance of public interference into and public government of private life.
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@ a Russian nagpo
“Instead of focusing on general human rights and non-discrimination, it takes a private sexual practice as a topic for public social discussion”
Wrong. What it does is to create a public discussion about discrimination, human rights violations, and violence directed at individuals because of their private sexual practices.
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Not my wrong 🙂
It doesn’t. It is not about ‘discrimination’, etc., but rather about making private things public and, as a subsequent result, making possible a public interference into one’s privacy. Therefore it destroys privacy instead of making people freer in their personal choices.
In my opinion, human rights movement has nothing to do with all that LBGT fuss.
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Ok, then please explain how legalizing same-sex marriage “destroys privacy instead of making people freer in their personal choices.”
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It tries to make a [quasi]sexual relation (which, as a biological norm for humans, is a private thing) equal to a social form of interpersonal bounds.
What is social, is not private.
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Under that definition, legal opposite-sex marriage also exposes private sexual relations to public scrutiny.
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Nope – as long as the opposite-sex marriage is the only option 🙂
It’s not just about public scrutiny,it’s more about the reducing the idea of sexual partership to sex only, reducing the value of marriage to a value of sex.
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Also, a pure logic would be enough. Since Foucault has openely stated as early as in the late 70’s that the very idea of same-sex marriage and ‘LBGT rights’ is contradictory to the ideas of the 6o’s, which we know for offering a set of perfect examples for the civil rights movement, we can easily deduce that the ‘same-sex rights movement’ also contradict the civil rights movements in their essence.
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Actually, it’s the exact opposite of “reducing the idea of sexual partership to sex only, reducing the value of marriage to a value of sex.” Legalizing same-sex marriage extends to those couples all the rights and protections of legal marriage that have nothing to do with sex: the right to hospital visitation, the right to social security benefits, the right to file income taxes jointly as a married couple, the right of inheritance, etc.
Also, I couldn’t care less what Foucault said almost 40 years ago. He isn’t some ultimate authority, and I don’t have to take his opinion as fact.
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I don’t believe in facts; I believe in logic and care about logic, not facts. To me, facts are nothing but dancing shady images on mirrow surface of one’s perception.
As for the ‘rights and protections that have nothing to do with sex’ ypu have mentioned, I don’t see any logical link between a person’s matrimonial status and legal grounds for the rights you have mentioned wich, I believe, can be easily found within the vast field of Anglo-Sazxon precedental law.
Hence, in my opinion, the fuss is more about sexuality and transition from private into public rather than about real civil rights movement.
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“As for the ‘rights and protections that have nothing to do with sex’ ypu have mentioned, I don’t see any logical link between a person’s matrimonial status and legal grounds for the rights you have mentioned”
Neither do I. But…
“wich, I believe, can be easily found within the vast field of Anglo-Sazxon precedental law.”
Nope. The rights, protections, and privileges found within the marriage contract do not exist elsewhere in our legal system. Domestic partnerships do not have the same weight. Unless they are legally married, a couple (whether same-sex or opposite-sex) has no right to file income taxes jointly, no right to social security benefits or military spousal benefits, no right to status as next of kin, no automatic right of hospital visitation much less decision-making power in a medical situation. Some of these things can be cobbled together through measures like power of attorney, but as long as the couple is not legally married, these cobbled-together measures can be successfully challenged in court by blood kin who can then (for example) ban a partner of 25 years from even sitting at the sickbed of their loved one.
I agree there is no logical link, but centuries of legal precedent have indeed linked these rights, protections, and privileges to marital status. That is the reality on the ground and what we therefore must deal with.
“Hence, in my opinion, the fuss is more about sexuality and transition from private into public rather than about real civil rights movement.”
In that case, what is your opinion about the widespread use of heterosexuality in advertisements to sell products? Isn’t it transitioning from private to public when corporations use almost-naked models in commercials for consumer goods?
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All this lgbt crap is off topic. This is a discussion about a Black woman and her child being violated by some racist pigs. Why don’t you take your crusade to an appropriate forum. Your gay “rights” are not civil rights or structural racial discrimination. Stop conflating the two. That’s disrespectful and minimizes the horrific existence we have been forced to endure as Black people, who are Black biologically, not by choice.
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@Jon Jonz
LGBTQ people are biologically hardwired to be who they are. That internal hardwiring (some call it preferences) may not be as apparent as a person’s paint job or equipment, but it is still there and was there from the moment they first drew breath.
LGBTQ rights are civil rights and LGBTQ folk do face discrimination. It is not the same type of discrimination that Black people face. In some quarters, LGTBQ hatred and discrimination are just as virulent and unreasoning as anything Black folk have to deal with historically.
Oppressors are good at multi-tasking, particularly when they use established systems to harm Black people and LGBTQ people.
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@Jon Jonz
“All this lgbt crap is off topic. This is a discussion about a Black woman and her child being violated by some racist pigs.”
+1000
Precisely, but most times there’s a discussion about injustices towards blacks on this blog it won’t be long before a non-black commenter (or their black lackey) comes along and derails the discussion. Happens like clockwork and abagond encourages it.
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@ Jon Jonz
Abagond allows a certain amount of thread drift. If you want to discuss the injustice done to Jacqueline Craig and her children, I will be more than happy to talk about that with you. But when people like A Russian Nagpo start making inaccurate statements about LGBTQ people in any thread, especially when those statements are borderline homophobic, I’m going to call it out instead of letting hatred stand unchallenged.
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@ Solitaire
Let’s fix the definitions. Private is a part of public. Since same-sex intercourse (I am not discussing here the reasons of excluding such type of behaviour from the list of mental disorders) is a part of sexual intercourse (whether under state of mental disorder or otherwise), I define the sexuality and sexual relations as ‘public’ and any type of a specific sexual behaviour as ‘private’.
Again: \private’ is a part of ‘public’.
Therefore, when we see a sexual image used by an advertisement company, it’s a public image adressed to a representative from the audience and the communication goes from public to privat, or from the whole to its part.
Yet wen we see a same-sex image used in an advertisement company (like, e.g., an image of gays some people were trying to use for IKEA advertisement company), the communication goes from a part to the whole, or from ‘private’ to ‘public’.
Besides, I don’t believe in ‘corporate conspiracy plot’. Corporations are persons, and people are different. Equal, but diufferent. Corporations don;t ‘use almost-naked models’, they just let the people to do their jobs and earn money.
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@ Afrofem
Well, at least the transsexuals are n.o.t. ‘biologically handwired to be who they are’, and LBGT (who do you add the Q here?) ‘civil rights’ have nothing to do with civil rights in their actual form.
And I am ready to repeat this statement 17 times, 108 tymes or more 🙂
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@a Russian nagpo
You are correct. Transsexual persons are not biologically hardwired to be who they are. From the transsexuals I have read and spoken to, they are emotionally and psychically oriented to another gender.
Civil rights refer to rights for all human beings, not one narrow slice of humanity.
“Q” is for queer folk. Queer folk are generally gender non-conforming. That covers a lot of ground and a lot of sexual expression.
“…I am ready to repeat this statement 17 times, 108 tymes or more”
a Russian nagpo, you can repeat your opinion to infinity if you desire. That will not change your opinion into fact or convince me of its veracity.
Bottom line: I don’t have a problem with private sexual behaviors between consenting adults. If you have concern or judgement about what goes on behind closed doors between grown people who say “yes” to each other, that is your business.
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The officer was suspended for 10 days without pay and will be reassigned back to the same community.
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@ Mary Burrell
Thanks for the update.
Even though the officer supposedly was suspended without pay, some of the White citizens may have donated five or six figures to help tide him over…like they did with Darren Wilson in Ferguson, MO.
Same as it ever was…
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@Afrofem: You know i wouldn’t be surprised if that happened they always support these devils in their misdeeds. They even reported they had no proof the young black kid had been attacked by the white neighbor. So it’s back to business as usual.
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@Afrofem
‘Civil rights refer to rights for all human beings, not one narrow slice of humanity’.
Exactly. And the so-called ‘LBGT rights movement’ does the very opposite to the civil rights. It makes the idea of civil rights applicable to one minority subgroup [= one narrow slice of humanity].
As for the Q letter, I think it’s just a strange example of how people living in America like using extra words.
I am not willing to convince you, nor to prove the logic to be a fact; I don’t value facts as much as logic, and, logically, there was enough said.
And. last but not least, as long as a person starts marching along a street under a banner ‘I screw the same sex’, her or his ‘sexual’ practices are not private any more.
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@ Afrofem
‘Even though the officer supposedly was suspended without pay, some of the White citizens may have donated five or six figures to help tide him over…like they did with Darren Wilson in Ferguson, MO.
Same as it ever was…’
I suppose they were the people of Russian origin and, presumably, the same persons who bribed Trump for pro-Slavic presidency–
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“…the so-called ‘LBGT rights movement’ does the very opposite to the civil rights. It makes the idea of civil rights applicable to one minority subgroup”
That is a fallacy akin to the US rightwing claiming that LGTBQ people want “special rights” that deny or intrude upon the rights of others. In fact, LGBTQ people want the same rights as everyone else: to go about their business without undue interference from self appointed moralists who like to legislate and control what goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults.
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@Afrofem
Again, ‘going about one’s own business’ is quite opposite to ‘what going on behind closed doors’; you cannot do anything civil / public ‘behind closed doors’.
What made you think I mentioned the ‘rights’ as ‘special’? It’s not ‘special’ vs ‘common’ but rather ‘partial’ vs ‘general’.
I don’t care about events ‘between consenting adults’; I just have a right to be unaware and uninformed about that… right, I think it’s crap.
Hence, it’s not a fallacy; my statement just doesn’t match your thinking box. A fallacy is to state LBGT ‘slice’ being equal to ‘discriminated nation / race whose hbuman rights are endangered’.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
Ok, let’s tie this back in with the topic of the thread. Jacqueline Craig and her children were mistreated by the police due to their race. Their valid complaint was ignored, they were physically brutalized, and they themselves were arrested.
This is a civil rights violation and a human rights violation.
In the United States, LGBTQ people are also subjected to police harassment and brutality because of their identity. This is also a violation of their civil and human rights.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-police-idUSKBN0M02JM20150304
“Law enforcement agencies in the United States regularly discriminate against and harass lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people, according to researchers at the University of California, Los Angeles.
“LGBT people of color and members of the transgender community were most targeted by police officers, according to a report produced by the Williams Institute at the UCLA School of Law. The study drew data from various recent national surveys, court cases and anecdotal evidence.
”Forty-eight percent of LGBT victims of violence polled in a 2013 survey reported experiencing police misconduct, the UCLA report said. Nearly half of transgender respondents in another national survey said they felt uncomfortable seeking police assistance.“
Do you actually believe that the police should be free to mistreat, harass, and brutalize any individual solely because of their identity? Can you explain to me how this is not a civil rights violation?
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@ A Russian Nagpo
My spouse has worked in diversity for over 25 years, and during that time he has facilitated diversity training for not just university police but also law enforcement at the city, county, and state levels, and once for a regional FBI field office. The training focuses heavily on racial issues, but he also covers other areas of discrimination. There has been immense resistance by police officers to LGBTQ training at every place he has worked. There is an almost unbreakable culture of homophobia among police in this nation.
Law enforcement officers themselves are subjected to homophobic behavior and even physical attacks from their fellow officers:
“[T]his discrimination not only impacts LGBT officers, but those who are perceived to be LGBT, associate with LGBT officers or community members, or who have spoken up against such discrimination.”
“Many of the reports revealed physical harassment or violence towards the officers. These included officers’ reports of being slammed into a concrete wall, beaten with a chair, and repeated reports of officers being refused back-up, placing their personal safety in danger”
http://www.comingoutfrombehindthebadge.com/commentary/study-homphobia-law-enforcement/
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@ resw
Deleted comment for addressing Solitaire.
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No one was “addressing Solitaire” if you actually read what I wrote and we’re honest, which you clearly are not.
I did exactly what you sanctioned. If you don’t like it then make up another new rule instead of being so inconsistent all the time.
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@ resw
Here is what I told you, word for word:
See:
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Would you kindly butt out of this?
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@ Abagond
On Oct. 31, 2016, at 18:30, you told me:
Please do not address resw or talk about him either. You can still comment on his comments though.
Have I broken this at any time in any way?
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hahaha, i’m interested. what happened between resw and solitaire?
are they like former lovers or something? not only does this blog have few visitors but all the contributors appear to be the same, day in day out. it’s like a little community.
and abagond’s the dad!
this is a barrel of laughs, i’m hooked.
who’s lord of mirkwood?
hello everyone, my name is apportune. i am a maghrebi jewish guy from france.
where i’m from, we have a proper educational system and people learn to think logically and intelligently.
we have a perception of americans as being stupid, racist and gun-loving. this blog appears to confirm that perception.
please accept me into your community. 😀
solitaire, i promise i will be nicer than resw.
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@ apportune
Oh, so you’re Jacques, not xprae.
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‘where i’m from, we have a proper educational system and people learn to think logically and intelligently’
Hi, apportune.
Since Maghreb is a large area, could you please specify which part of it do you see as a world-reputed source of clear and logical thinking? Is it Lybia after Gaddafi (may he be reborn among humans), or Tunisia, or some part of Sahara (without its area disputed by Marocco)?
Or were you referring to Israel? With or without Palestine, then?
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@Solitaire
‘Ok, let’s tie this back in with the topic of the thread. Jacqueline Craig and her children were mistreated by the police due to their race. Their valid complaint was ignored, they were physically brutalized, and they themselves were arrested.
This is a civil rights violation and a human rights violation’.
Agreed.
‘In the United States, LGBTQ people are also subjected to police harassment and brutality because of their identity. This is also a violation of their civil and human rights’.
Disagreed,
The fallacy is yours, because ‘identity’ does not mean ‘sexual orientation’. It’s like saynig ‘identity is a race’ or ‘identity is behaviour’, or ‘identity is a blood type’. These are parts of it, but they are not the same things as.
Since, in my opinion, ‘civil rights’ means ‘treating persons equally regardless on their identities’ and since ‘identity’ does not mean ‘sexual preferences’, what you referring to is an unequal treatment of persons of different genders, but not ‘civil rights violation’, Again, in my opinion.
And, no. you cannot use the same logical structure for, e.g., unequal treatment because of a race type, because ‘race’ is even a narrower concept than ‘a gender’ and/or ‘a sex’.
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@Solitaire
As for the ‘discrimination’ among the law enforcement officers you have mentioned, I think it’s more about trust, not about ‘discrimination’.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
So what it boils down to is:
A) You believe that being gay is a choice and a preference
B) You think gay people are abnormal and they make you uncomfortable
C) You think it is acceptable for gay people to be beaten up because they are gay
D) You don’t think gay people have any right to be safe from physical violence
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“As for the ‘discrimination’ among the law enforcement officers you have mentioned, I think it’s more about trust, not about ‘discrimination’.”
Could you please explain in more detail. How is it about trust? Which side has issues about trust? And how do these issues about trust justify one officer beating another officer with a chair?
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“Since, in my opinion, ‘civil rights’ means ‘treating persons equally regardless on their identities’”
The “civil” in civil rights is from the same root as civilian and civilization. Citizens of the United States are according certain rights. Those rights should be upheld regardless of a person’s race, religion, gender, (dis)ability, sexual orientation, etc.
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Correction to the above:
“Citizens of the United States are accorded certain civil rights.”
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‘The “civil” in civil rights is from the same root as civilian and civilization. Citizens of the United States are according certain rights. Those rights should be upheld regardless of a person’s race, religion, gender, (dis)ability, sexual orientation, etc.’
Right, but if you think that you are making a good service for people of different identity parts by stating that a part is equal to the whole, you are wrong.
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@Solitaire:
‘So what it boils down to is:
A) You believe that being gay is a choice and a preference
B) You think gay people are abnormal and they make you uncomfortable
C) You think it is acceptable for gay people to be beaten up because they are gay
D) You don’t think gay people have any right to be safe from physical violence’
Nope, It just ‘boils down’ to my statement that you are the worst mind reader I ever met.
And I don’t think about ‘gay people’ at all; there are many much more interesting andexciting things.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
Look, I understand there is a language barrier here and up until now I’ve tried not to broach that, but it’s gotten where I can’t tell if it’s your English skills or your logic that’s faulty. None of the hair-splitting you’ve been doing about public, private, part, whole, identity, etc. makes one whit of sense.
What the h*ll does this even mean?
“Right, but if you think that you are making a good service for people of different identity parts by stating that a part is equal to the whole, you are wrong.”
Where did I ever state the part is equal to the whole?
My gender is part of who I am. My race is part of who I am. My religion is part of who I am. My sexual orientation is part of who I am.
None of those “parts” should be used as an excuse to deny me my civil rights, nor to deny anyone else.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“And I don’t think about ‘gay people’ at all”
You think about them enough to come up with a convoluted theory of why they don’t have any rights and then to spend quite a lot of verbage defending that theory here.
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@Solitaire,
like I said, you’re the worst mind reader I ever met.
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@ Solitaire
‘Look, I understand there is a language barrier here and up until now I’ve tried not to broach that, but it’s gotten where I can’t tell if it’s your English skills or your logic that’s faulty. None of the hair-splitting you’ve been doing about public, private, part, whole, identity, etc. makes one whit of sense.
What the h*ll does this even mean?’
I would suggest some books to read on the topic, but I doubt you master the languages they are written in well enough to understand. So far I cannot see any philosophical ground for what seems to you to be fighting for a right cause, and your ideas seems to be too sick to make me want to be a part of your batting against the mirror bareers of your own reflections.
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@ resw
Deleted a SECOND comment that talks about Solitaire after I told you point blank not to.
Your comments will be moderated till further notice. If you try to avoid moderation, you will be banned.
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@ resw
If Solitaire has been talking about you after I told her not to, then please point out said comments and I will gladly delete them.
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@a Russian nagpo
Hi nagpo,
I am a french jew of moroccan sephardic origin. i speak hebrew, moroccan arabic, english and french.
we have a proper social model in france. i don’t think americans are aware of this but your high school education is considered a joke by the rest of the world (thus sharina and herneith). the way americans treat non-white people is also considered a joke. mississippi, for instance, is like the third world. and america is meant to be the wealthiest nation on earth? it’s a joke. high school education AND university education is free in france. and is of a much higher standard. l’école polytechnique, for instance, is considered better than harvard, for french people. l’ENA is considered better than oxford.
there are a lot of jewish people in france that are of north african origin.
here are some famous examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gad_Elmaleh
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Hanouna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lie_Semoun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard-Henri_L%C3%A9vy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_D%C3%A9sir
as for palestine/israel, everyone knows what a tragedy that is. and what a lot of arab states have done is a tragedy. they chased out jewish people from their own states (iran, iraq, etc.) but refused to give citizenship to palestinians who wanted to join arab states. no one batted an eyelid when india was split into india and pakistan, and muslims founded a nation – pakistan – for and by muslim people. an islamic republic. and Bangladesh. but when jewish people, who represent 15 million – against the 1,500 million muslims and 2,500 million christians – establish ONE state for jewish people, despite the fact that there are dozens of muslim states, the whole world goes crazy. the world will not even allow jewish people ONE state. when muslims and christians have dozens of their own safe havens. the national religion of the UK, for instance, is still the Church of England.
we ask that the world afford us one safe haven, israel, so that they may stop killing us. we never invaded large continents and forced people to convert.
christians invaded europe, america and large parts of africa and imposed their religion. muslims invaded large parts of the middle east, north africa and southern europe and imposed their religion. when have jewish people tried to impose their religion? everyone is blinded by their hatred of jewish people because our population is so small and not many people have jewish friends. we are an easy target. if the rest of the world insists on trying to exterminate us, we will respond by force.
ever since the shoah, we have a saying: “never again”. i do not believe in zionism, i believe in stopping the killings. jewish people must have a safe place. arab states must stop saying that they want to destroy israel. palestinians must have a safe place. and arab states should help BOTH jewish and palestinians to achieve this.
hope that clears it up. 😀
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D’accord. Enchanté, Lord of Mirkwood. 🙂
Ok, mais je trouve ça marrant que tout le monde est obsédé par la race en Amérique. C’est parce que vous êtes un pays nouveau et pas très sophistiqué. Vous ne connaissez pas le vieux monde. dans notre monde, il y a beaucoup plus de mélange et une histoire beaucoup plus ancienne. Vous ne savez même pas ce que vous ne savez pas. Constamment c’est “oh la race, la race”. Oui, il y a du racisme. En France et en Amerique, mais la solution ce n’est pas d’avoir encore PLUS de racisme. Ou le ‘black supremacy’. Je trouve çela bête.
Le socialisme est une chose normale pour nous. Nous savons que si quelqu’un est pauvre, ce n’est pas à cause de leur race, c’est à cause de l’inegalité, mais les gens comme sharina et herneith, au lieu de dire que la réponse à la situation en Amérique c’est de réduire les inégalités, disent que la solution c’est d’insultés les blancs, ou les Juifs, ou les arabes, ou je ne sais quoi. Ceci n’aide pas la situation. Cela est pourquoi vous me semblez un peu tous dingue.
Okay. Nice to meet you, Lord of Mirkwood. 🙂
Yes but i find it funny how everyone is obsessed with race in america. it is because you are a new country and not very sophisticated. you do not know the old world. in the old world, there is a lot more mixing and a much more ancient history. Americans do not even know what they do not know. Constantly it’s ‘oh race, race, race’. Yes, there is racism. In France and in America, but the solution is not to have MORE racism. Or black supremacy. I find that silly.
Socialism is a normal thing for us. We know that if someone is poor, it is not because of their race, it is because of inequality. But people like sharina and herneith, instead of saying that the solution to the situation in america is to reduce inequality, say that the solution is to insult white people, or jewish people, or arab people, or i-don’t-know-what. That doesn’t help the situation. That is why you all seem a little crazy to me.
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Oh, lookee. Yet another Old World European who knows everything there is to know about the U.S. of A., come to learn us young’uns a lesson or two. Gosh durn it.
@ apportune
“Yes but i find it funny how everyone is obsessed with race in america. it is because you are a new country and not very sophisticated.”
No, it’s because from day one this nation has been built on racist atrocities. Racism is woven into our country’s framework and history in ways that you cannot (or more likely, do not want to) understand.
“you do not know the old world. in the old world, there is a lot more mixing and a much more ancient history.”
Oh, you think?? You really think you have anywhere near the mixing that we have, for as many centuries as we have had? Riiiight.
“We know that if someone is poor, it is not because of their race, it is because of inequality.”
Oh, all non-white people are poor? And if they become rich, racism will magically vanish and no longer have a negative impact on their lives? Well, shucks, you done solved racism all by your little lonesome.
“But people like sharina and herneith, instead of saying that the solution to the situation in america is to reduce inequality, say that the solution is to insult white people, or jewish people, or arab people, or i-don’t-know-what.”
Sharina never said that. Can’t you read? And Herneith only insults you because it amuses her. Kind of like my cat toying with some yarn when nothing else interesting is afoot.
“you all seem a little crazy to me.
Likewise, I’m sure.
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@ ASG-M
FFS, you are so predictable. All someone has to do is say they’re from France and you fawn over them wagging your tail like a little puppy, no matter how rude, condescending, and boorish a troll they’re being.
It ain’t dignified.
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“I agree with you there. I think that economic inequality is the cause of the social problems in America, not race. Although I am leftist and progressive, I do not agree with the idea of “white privilege.”
Scrib/lom continues his fatally boring monologue to his newfound buddy with this:
Oh, did I forget to mention that I’m not particularly bright, which makes me not just the laughing stock around here but also the standard go to type of teacher that Amerika’s indoctrination/reprogramming/non-educational centers (aka public schools) seek to train the little cogs to follow the big cogs (elite authorities) while inhibiting the development of any cognitive abilities! Easy job for me since I have little to no mental prowess of own! When I’m done with those little crumb snatchers they won’t know what racism is, much less be able to SEE it standing directly in front of them! They’ll be confused as I am.
Like you, I too don’t think too highly of the majority of the people that hang here. I talk to mostly the white people, and the white enablers – breast feeders! I’m permitted to suck as much as I want. Nonetheless I’m drawn to this place like iron particles are drawn to a magnet! Probably because it makes me feel so smart when I’m in the company of this many Negroes. Plus all the free range organic human breast milk. Just sayin’…. and I know YOU get it. Well, not the milk but everything else. Last thing – don’t pay Fan … any attention. Just ignore him as I do because I can barely counter anything he drops on me – just because I made a couple of really dumb moves here. Some of the Negroes around here don’t forget nothing!
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herneith is a girl???
really?
interesting. i am getting to know you all a little better.
but since i am a feminist, that will not alter my treatment of her… so i will continue in my chastising tone. 😀
euuuuh, yes. read a book, sweetheart.
Damn, that was sexist. And i just said I was a feminist.
ever heard of the continuous wars of invasion shaking the old world for centuries and centuries before your silly racist nation was founded in the late 18th century?
silly girl. what mixing? whites in america are still pretty much as white as they were when they arrived. anyone with anything but a drop of non-white is considered black.
do you think we have the ‘one drop rule’ in europe? silly, silly girl.
come to europe, you great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jelly.
did i say all non-white people are poor?
seeing as i am non-white, i take that as an insult! 😀
(i hope it wasn’t though… how heart-wrenching that would be. does this mean that you still like resw more than you like me?)
😦
but wait, you appear to be twisting my words to serve a black supremacist agenda. what was that word… ?
shucks?
such bizarre phonology you new-worlders have adopted.
did i say racism would end? did i say that wealth would end racism?
i’ve stated a pretty basic point that you all appear to be arguing against just because i’m a new entrant to your little village-of-looneys.
am i disrupting the black supremacist stranglehold?
how awful.
my point was: human history is defined by the quest for resources.
racism is then used to justify the appropriation of resources.
muslims and jews in the middle east lived in relative harmony until empires and oil came onto the scene. ever since then, every denomination under the sun has been at eachother’s throat to get the best part of the oil loot.
sunni/shi’ite/kurdish/jewish/christian etc.
would it be a coincidence that it all started with the age of industrialisation and the thirst for oil?
Solitaire, you were doing so well. really. but then.. suddenly… you let your emotions get the better of you… just so that you could leap to the defence of your intellectually-stunted ally.
how…
poetic.
oh, why is it so, that stupidity and poeticism are such inalienable bed-fellows?
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@solitaire
huh? are you a white person acting black?
noooooooooooo
not one of those!!!
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@ apportune
“herneith is a girl???”
No, she’s a grown-@ss woman and don’t you forget it.
“really?”
Why so much stunned surprise? I thought you were a feminist.
“read a book, sweetheart.”
I have read hundreds of books (no exaggeration — hundreds) about European history, culture, and civilization, with a concentration on the ancient and medieval eras. You apparently have read very little about the history of the Americas post-1492.
“ever heard of the continuous wars of invasion shaking the old world for centuries and centuries”
See above. Okay, the Muslims conquered Spain, but they didn’t make it to your lovely France, did they? The Mongols didn’t make it to France, either. How many biracial and tri-racial people do you think were living in my silly nation in the late 18th century compared to yours?
“silly girl. what mixing? whites in america are still pretty much as white as they were when they arrived.”
Nope, not true, and the longer our ancestors have been here, the more likely we ain’t as white as we look, due to a little phenomenon called “passing” and “crossing the color line.”
“anyone with anything but a drop of non-white is considered black.”
If that were true, a substantial percentage of Sally Hemings’ living descendants would not be considered — and considered themseves — white. See above re crossing the color line.
“come to europe, you great supine protoplasmic invertebrate jelly.”
How stereotypical of you to assume I haven’t been already.
“did i say all non-white people are poor?”
Not in so many words, granted. But your example was about poverty, not some other manifestation of racism, and your entire argument so far has centered around the premise that racism is about economics.
“seeing as i am non-white, i take that as an insult! “
Perhaps you should have known better.
“but wait, you appear to be twisting my words to serve a black supremacist agenda.”
How fascinating. Pray tell, what part of my comments suggested a black supremacist agenda?
“such bizarre phonology you new-worlders have adopted.”
Yer darn-tootin’ and proud of it.
“muslims and jews in the middle east lived in relative harmony until empires and oil came onto the scene.”
Yes and no. Depended on the caliph, the political mood, and so on. Then the western Christians showed up during the crusades and messed things up nicely.
“Solitaire, you were doing so well. really. but then.. suddenly… you let your emotions get the better of you”
Nope, this is all idle fun. A sight more entertaining than whittling. And like whittling, it also involves a block of wood.
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@ apportune
“huh? are you a white person acting black?”
Nope. That’s how we talk down home, us hillybillys. Good enough for my mamaw, good enough for me.
Maybe you need to make a visit here, son. You might just learn you a few things.
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@ apportune
Oh, and Mr. Educated Old World Civilization? If you knew some Ancient Egyptian, you’d have realized Herneith was female from the get-go.
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@Solitaire
since everything else you wrote was just commentary that didn’t disprove anything of what i wrote (except for maybe the ‘one drop rule’ thing, which didn’t really address the fact that… you guys have a one-drop-rule, we don’t) I’ll just address this quote:
again, your americanobsession with black/white is showing.
according to you silly americans:
europeans are all just white people.
because you white americans love to pat one another on the back and say “we’re white! yayyy”
ever wondered why europe is fragmented into nation states?
pretty much every single nation in europe viewed itself as a distinctly different race from the neighbouring one…
and they all promptly started mixing.. again, and again, and again.
which is why race is a far more fluid concept for us.
than it is for you simplified black/white new worlders.
there’s a guy called William the Conqueror on this blog, maybe ask him where he gets that name from.
maybe.
or maybe look up Julius Caesar? and the gauls, and the visigoths, and the franks, and the bretons, and the belgae, and the saxons, and the normans, and the celts, and the berbers, and the moors, and the finn, and the slav, and the saxons, and the angles,
since so many of you are descendants of anglo-saxons… i’ll use this example:
why are they called anglo-saxons?
when did the romans first invade great britain? 2,000 years ago.
when did the vikings first reach lindisfarne? 793 AD
when did william the conqueror commence the norman invasion of great britain? 1066 AD
what happened to the celts?
and that’s just one country.
rinse and repeat for every nation.
and every time it was the same…
“our opponents are inferior, therefore we have the right to take their land, rape their women and pillage their resources.”
rinse and repeat. europeans have been mixing for as long as we have a recorded history of it.
which would suggest it was going on even before then!
so i reiterate…
silly silly girl, imposing your modern-day definition of race onto europe’s past.
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OUCH! you got me. the only one so far. Congratulations
(sharina, learn from her)
😀
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@Annie
me calling you Annie wasn’t an ad hominem… or was it?
(i use ad hominems to spur the opponent into action, a rhetoric device. i also ensure i add a few little flourishes here and there, to maintain just a little bit of civility 😀 )
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@ apportune
Dude, I know all this. Want to discuss the difference between Jutes and Mercians? I’m your gal; I can go on for hours.
You don’t think the white people here are all mixed up? You know how many deadly European enemies I’ve got in my bloodline, because once they were on this side of the pond, they all started intermarrying?
And no, I’m not fixating on white and black. Did you see where I said tri-racial? Do you know what that means?
The fact is, in Europe you’re talking different groups of white people. Yes, there were waves of invasion and yes, those white people mixed up.
But to use that as a basis to say Americans don’t understand race because we aren’t familiar with the Old World?
C’mon, we make Europe’s mixing look like child’s play. Take all of that mixing, bring it over here, and mix it up with another two or three races, all of whom also have separate ethnic divisions.
The one-drop rule has never worked 100 percent iron-clad, nor has it existed everywhere in the U.S.
And lest I focus too much on white Americans, do not forget that most African Americans and most Native Americans are ethnically and racially mixed.
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@Solitaire
aaah, the triangulation moment…
“It involves adopting for oneself some of the ideas of one’s political opponent.”
when all of a sudden the opponent has taken the ideas she was arguing against and passes them off as her own…! 😀
this whole blog is predated on a very clear black/white distinction
white people this, white people that etc. etc. jewish people this, jewish people that. black people this, black people that. ad nauseaum
yet you have just confirmed that race is an entirely made up concept.
and why would people constantly draw up lines to divide us?
it wouldn’t be in order to justify the appropriation of resources now…
would it?
Thank you. 2 defeats in one night! I can go to bed content.
It was a pleasure, southern gal.
😀
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@ apportune
“this whole blog is predated on a very clear black/white distinction… yet you have just confirmed that race is an entirely made up concept.”
You need to lurk more. Abagond has done posts about the artificial nature of race. There’s been plenty of discussion at certain times about that, as well.
But we’re dealing with the reality on the ground. Too many racist white people are still convinced of the truth of race for “science proves there is no such thing” to be a fast fix for racial discrimination and inequality.
You cannot imagine my disappointment that you don’t want to discuss the Jutes and the Mercians.
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apportune
You have been gotten by everyone that has engaged you. So….lol.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“I would suggest some books to read on the topic, but I doubt you master the languages they are written in well enough to understand.”
You wouldn’t happen to be referring to that Derrida claptrap, would you? Been there, done that, got the degree. It’s still a bunch of navel-gazing malarkey.
“your ideas seems to be too sick”
Sick? Please, explain. I’m all ears.
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(i use ad hominems to spur the opponent into action, a rhetoric device. i also ensure i add a few little flourishes here and there, to maintain just a little bit of civility 😀 )
I agree with you here. Keep it up and entertaining!
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Add some French flourishes whilst at it!
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@herneith
enough of a french flourish?
because flourish i do.
extra brownie points for anyone who can name that track…
😀 😀 😀
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Dans l’ère de l’Internet, c’est trop facile. Le titre est Girls, Girls, Girls par Jay-Z.
Enchanté.
Je trouve ça intéressant que les idées d’ état et ceux-ci d’ idéntité ne soient plus liées à la notion d’ éthnicité ni a une réligion. Et, comme vous, j’ utilise des langues diverses quand je prie ou quand je parle avec des gens des milieux sociaux intérieurs our extérieurs (mais je ne suis ni un juif ni un autre théiste).
Je parle plusieurs langues, notamment un peu de lucumi, mais en termes américains je suis racialement ‘blanc’.
La seule chose que je trouve marrant dans la culture américain, c’ est leur cuisine. En parlant de politique, c’ est la peur qui leur inspirent des syndicats.
Le rest, c’ est simplement qu’ils ont maintenant, mais rien n’ est éternel.
Je suis ici principalement pour m’ amuser et pour avour une longue vie heureuse après le divorce de ma trosième épouse.
______________
It’s too easy in the age of the Internet. The track was Girls, Girls, Girls by Jay-Z.
Nice to meet you.
I think it’s interesting how the ideas of a State and of one’s identity are getting disconnected from a concept of ethncity or religion. And, just like you, I use different languages when praying or when speaking to persons from inside or outside of my social milieu (yet I am not a Judaist or follower of any other theistic religion).
I speak several languages, including some Lucumi, but in American terms I am racially White. The American cuisine is the only part of the American culture that seems funny to me. In politics, it’s how much they are intimidated by trade unions.
The rest is just what they have now, but nothing is forever.
I’m here mainly for fun and for a long happy life after a divorce with my third wife.
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PS: damn, that was a Freudian typo in English version there because of language interference; it should be ‘from my former third wife’, not ‘with my third wife’, of course :-).
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@ A Russian Nagpo
So it was Derrida. I apologize for any perceived slights to your proficiency in English, when actually the incomprehensiblity of your argument stems from your adherence to a deliberately obtuse and absurd school of philosophy.
I suspected as much when you proclaimed, “I don’t believe in facts; I believe in logic and care about logic, not facts.” You can make a perfectly logical argument that the earth is flat, as long as your audience accepts your premises, but that doesn’t make it true nor prevent your logical argument from being easily disproven by scientific fact.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
I admit that when I asked you to explain how it is an issue of trust, that was a rhetorical question. Of course I understood your implication: that the straight officers do not trust the gay officers (or those perceived to be gay, or who associate with gay officers or community members, or who have spoken up about discrimination against gay officers) not to make unwanted sexual advances.
Why, when that gay police officer calls for backup, it might be a trap! He might be luring the straight officer to a secluded place in order to grab his private parts! Instead of, you know, needing assistance in an emergency situation related to their shared job.
I can actually sympathize with this fear, because ever since I reached puberty, I too have been subjected to unwanted sexual attention from men. And now I find out that all I had to do was grab the nearest chair and beat them with it! And there would of course be no negative repercussions to me, because obviously that man was asking for it and got what was coming to him! Donald Trump certainly needed to be beaten with a few chairs until he learned not to grab other people’s private parts. Bill Clinton, too, just to keep this nonpartisan.
This is fantastic news! I’ll have to start carrying a baseball bat (or metal folding chair, hmm?) with me whenever I need to walk by a construction site.
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This is not a bilingual blog. English is the language of record. Going forward I am deleting all comments with gratuitous French.
If you want to quote Voltaire and there are issues about how he is translated into English, that is one thing. But what is going on here is a moderation mess waiting to happen.
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How about Vulgarian?
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@ Solitaire
Nah, it wasn’t Derrida. There is a longer comment under moderation and its shorter version goes like this; being a gay cop doesn’t make you a better person, or a martyr, or more ethical, or more sophysticated than a straight cop; it just makes you a gay cop.
And, judging by some specifications of male homosexuality among military / law enforcement officers that is often related to sadism/ psycothis/ power issues, I suppose (and this is n.o.t. a victim blaiming) that the reputed gay cops became the objects of unethical behaviour not because of being gays, but rather because of their own unethicalbehaviour..
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@abagond
Ok, because there is a bunch (or what is a proper term of venery for an intellectual? Is it a brain network?) of Négritude writers and philosophers who wrote it all in French 🙂
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“being a gay cop doesn’t make you a better person, or a martyr, or more ethical, or more sophysticated than a straight cop”
I never said it does.
What I said is most law enforcement agencies in the U.S. have an entrenched culture of homophobia that leads to discrimation against and physical brutalization of LGBTQ people (and those mistakenly perceived to be LGBTQ, etc.), including their own fellow officers.
“I suppose (and this is n.o.t. a victim blaiming) that the reputed gay cops became the objects of unethical behaviour not because of being gays, but rather because of their own unethicalbehaviour..”
Do you have any statistics or studies to back up your supposition? Otherwise it’s just victim blaming.
What about the non-officers, the ordinary LGBTQ citizens who are victimized by the police? Are you going to blame the victim there, too?
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@abagond
I don’t give a damn about your threats to ban me.
We all know this is because I continuously expose your lies, hypocrisy and protection of the feelings of the white supremacist commenters with whom you’ve aligned because they supported the same racist candidate as you.
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@abagond
“Deleted a SECOND comment that talks about Solitaire after I told you point blank not to.”
My comment was about your other white supremacist colleague who has harassed me on your blog and whose feelings you continuously protect. But, since you have so many “white supremacist” friends these days, I forgive your confusion.
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@apportune
“where i’m from, we have a proper educational system and people learn to think logically and intelligently.”
It doesn’t show.
“who’s lord of mirkwood?”
He’s abagond’s racist white supremacist master. He used to call himself xpraetorius and now he calls himself Sribh something or another these days.
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How interesting that several of abagond’s racist white supremacist pals have taken over the Jacqueline Craig thread to talk about lgbt, Israel/Palestine, jews, Christian and Muslim conquests, and of course Irish people. Everything except the racism against Jacqueline Craig and her family.
Instead of enforcing his own comment policy, abagond goes after the one calling out these racists’ deflections for what they are.
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Everything except the racism against Jacqueline Craig and her family.
Interesting indeed. I was wondering about that.
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I call that ‘white think’.
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Not to contribute to the ‘thread creep’ (the open thread is unindexed and i shudder to think how it will go using my phone to read it) but i seriously don’t think lom/scribh is xpraetorious.
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@ resw
Deleted a THIRD comment in which you make remarks about Solitaire. Your comments remain under moderation.
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^Another example of abagond’s lies. No one did what he just falsely accused me of doing.
It’s a shame he has to resort to lies in a poor attempt at vengeance.
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@V8driver
Your boy has made numerous false allegations about me, including spreading the lie that I’m the commenter named apportune.
It’s funny how quiet you were then, but how quick you are to rush to the defence of one of your own kind.
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@herneith
As I said before my comment was deleted on the basis of abgond’s desperate lies, white supremacists DO racist stuff like deflecting all the time and then cry when I call out THEIR racism.
The old abagond wrote a post about this practise:
The new abagond facilitates this practise.
@abagond
Please read what I actually wrote this time and try to be honest instead of lying so damned much.
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@ Scribh
XPraetorius promised to return under a different IP address, so for all I know you are him/them.
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As expected, the racist white Irish supremacist hypocrite, who accused me of being apportune FIRST, goes crying to abagond when he’s accused of being another commenter SECOND.
But kudos to abagond for finally standing up to his master lord of mirkwood aka xpraetorius, because if can’t take it, he shouldn’t be the FIRST one dishing it.
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