This is a repost – the comment thread of the original post has grown too large for its own good. I still agree with what I wrote:
I have written many posts about relationships between black women and white men in America. It used to be a big topic on this blog. Of all the different things I have written about, it was the first to catch fire and get over 300 comments. At one point it seemed like half my commenters were in such relationships. My views have changed over time, so there is some confusion about where I stand.
My current views: Here is my current thinking. If it is different than something I said in an earlier post, that just means my opinion has changed:
- There is nothing wrong with such relationships, but black women can go into them for the wrong reasons, like internalized racism. The Black Women’s Empowerment movement (BWE), for example, presents white men as saving black women from black men. That is internalized racism straight-up, all the way.
- Black women do not secretly desire white men. Not any more than I secretly desire white women. Some of them might, of course, but probably not most of them. I do not remember ever saying otherwise. There is nothing to support the idea of a common secret desire other than a white racist worldview or black male insecurity. Other than the BWE sorts, I do not hear black women going on and on about how wonderful white men are. Not even close. Even those who are in such relationships seem more defensive than anything else.
- Why there are not many black women with white men in America: because most black women do not want to be with white men. It is women who do the choosing, especially when it comes to race and particularly since most men are dogs. Further, as shown in studies on Chinese American women, most women marry men like those they grew up among. Most black women grow up in black neighbourhoods, so based just on that alone you would expect most black women to be with black men.
- Racialized beauty standards. I have written about this at length. Not just because American beauty standards are at odds with my own, but because it is a part of White American racism, a big subject on this blog. But, yes, in writing about it, black women can come off seeming like they are in a meat market and found wanting, which is demeaning, I agree. I do talk about white men not seeming to want black women, but I do that not to put down black women, but rather to point out the racism of white men. Because black women are, first and foremost, women it seems strange to me for so many white men to seem like they feel no attraction for them – unless, of course, you assume they are looking at the world through a racist lens.
Thanks (I think) to commenter Peanut for suggesting this post.
– Abagond, 2013.
See also:
I am a caucasian man and I love women of color. I think alot of white guys do but are afraid to say it out fear of not getting approval from white people
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Bria, I cannot be sure of the veracity of all you wrote. I am sure of this:
1) You are gorgeous!
2) You are intelligent as well.
3) Your boyfriend is one heck of a lucky man.
Good luck to you!
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How about a post on gay/same-sex relationships in the black community? I feel this interracial thing has been beaten to death.
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Did you do a post on black men, white women. I am sure you did, I might have missed it. Does it show the same reasonable reasoning?
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I personally don’t believe wm desire bw rather fetishize them.
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@ Abagond I appreciate this post very much and wouldn’t disagree, except that I think Point 3 is not the fullest possible explanation. No doubt, there is a normative aspect to this that would be true of all communities, not just black women–but perhaps especially black women given the world in which they have to live. Unfortunately, white racism skews everything human. But even in a world defined by white racism and white supremacy, I’d speculate that more black women would be married to white men if the white men were not so cowardly–i.e.., subordinated to white racist expectations. If, under white racism, black women were considered (if you will) “exotic-positive” instead of “exotic-negative,” the bias within white society would not be so strong, and the perceived cost to sustaining a “normal” profile as a white man in a white-centered and white racist society would not be too steep for many white men who actually do find black women attractive (and many do). Basically, white men either are inherently hostile racists who view black women negatively, or they find black women appealing, but are not willing to compromise their privilege by marrying–which is probably why young white men want to “date” that pretty black girl in their college class or work place, but more often lack the integrity to follow through in marriage. In contrast, more white men are willing to marry Asian women, who are viewed by a white supremacist society as “exotic-positive.” White society, which is essentially racist, sees a white-Asian marriage (and by that I mean, white male and Asian female) as tolerable if not attractive, or at least “understandable.” Of course, how some Asian women view white males is another thing too. Still, I’d suggest that if more white men were actually willing to pursue, court, marry, and identify with black women in marriage, we’d see more black women being open to it.
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Reblogged this on The Militant Negro™.
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I love seeing mixed race couples, but I prefer to never enter one myself
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Joan asked a question and then commented: “How about a post on gay/same-sex relationships in the black community? I feel this interracial thing has been beaten to death.”
Don’t’ stop with just “gay/same-sex in the black community.” A more profound question would’ve been: How did gay, same-sex, or homosexuality behavior was introduced to the black race and the rest of the world? I am quite certain if you’d conduct a little research, you’d find out that it was a practice that began in the Russian, Caucus Mountains, northern Europe region. You know, … that usually dark, overcast and gloomy place where white people ran around wild like beasts killing each other, having sex with animals and having homosexual relations. Please, … give me a break and get down off of your pompous, high white horse.
What else have white people contributed to the world besides violence, bestiality, incest, oral sex and homosexuality?
Sorry ‘bout that Abagond, I know it’s off topic.
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@ Blacksage.
I believe people are born gay. I don’t belive it’s a choice. I think it’s hard wired into some peoplels DNA.
I think it’s an evolutionary trait that allows a small segment of any population to think differently. Many great inventions were thought up by gay people. It could be nature’s way of moving humanity forward through contributions made by people born to think and act differently then the rest of the population.
I’m not saying that all gay people are brilliant and talented but enough are that it shows up in statistics that compare gays to the rest of the population.
The topic on the roots of racism have been interesting.
Another way to view racism is as a vertical hierarchy with white at the top and black at the bottom. This view helps show the systemic nature of how power is concentrated at the top and from their controls and defines the social nature of society.
The current racial hierarchy is the structure that holds up white supremacy and is the measure by which all things a judged and defined.
In the Asian world their are contested racial hierarchies amongst their peoplles but their standard seems to be rooted in white and influenced heavily by the West.
If racism was horizontal that would mean no particular group would have a monopoly of power over any other group. Some people would hold prejudices and seek their own kind but the systemic and institutional power generated within white supremacy would not be their to dominate society in favor of any particular group.
Interracial marriages that work are those where neither partner dominates the other. The racism is still their but it is overcome through mutual respect. On a personal level these unions are horizontal not verticale. WM/BW unions are statistically more rare but also have the lowest divorce rates which would indicate stable, healthy relationships.
Unions like WM/AW that are rooted in white male dominance and Asian fetish create problems for the children of such unions. They are not unified in love but in the objectification of the female partner.
It is probable that some IR relationships other then WM/AW also objectify the female partner solely on race but to me it seems the WM/AW is the most common one that people notice. I don’t think all WM/AW.unions are based on dominance/fetish but enough are that it’s an issue.
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@michaeljonbarker
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Good post. As a WM who was in a dozen or more relationships with BW during my single years, and having now been married to a BW for over 20 years, what you say rings very true to me. In particular your points 2 and 4 are things I have seen personally amongst (for 2) the BW I have been involved with, and (for 4) the white males who have been friends of mine as I have dated and then married. Bell Hooks was way wrong on that last point.
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For the comments in the last thread.
In no particular order:
@Afrofem: STANDING OVATION
@Herneith:STANDING OVATION
@Fan…. :STANDING OVATION
I applaud all your understanding and insights of what racism is and is not and your long range vision to see “around the corner”.
Thank you.
(I might add commentary later).
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Michaeljonbarker said: “I believe people are born gay. I don’t belive it’s a choice. I think it’s hard wired into some peoplels DNA. I think it’s an evolutionary trait that allows a small segment of any population to think differently. Many great inventions were thought up by gay people. It could be nature’s way of moving humanity forward through contributions made by people born to think and act differently then the rest of the population.
Note: In the Bible, today’s so-called white man’s biblical name is Esau, Edom or Idumea. All of these names refer to him as a group being the red man. This is why they’d rather be referred to as being white, because they know the Bible clearly condemn them as a group of people from the first book of the Bible, the Book of Genesis, to the last book, the Book of Revelation.
I agree with you, but only to a certain extent and for other reasons. I also believe that homosexuality/same-sex unions are of the power of a higher authority, that is, to glorify the good Lord in all of his majesty. The Bible clearly states that every nation/group of people will have a certain spirit placed upon them. In Hebrews 12:16: “Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.” Profane means to be secular or ungodly or even disrespectful of God’s wishes. What group or race of people, have pushed the gay/homosexual agenda more so than white people? None! Leviticus 20:13: “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
As a group, haven’t the white man been a terrorist on this planet? Haven’t he invaded other countries and subsequently name the entire land mass after himself, e.g., Northern Africa was overthrown by a Roman General named Scipio Africanus after the Second Punic War, eventually, the entire continent was named after him. America was named after an Italian, Amerigo Vespucci. In Psalm 49:11: “Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue forever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.”
Have you ever noticed than the white man always order his steak medium as rare, medium rear or just medium. All of these desired doneness of steak or other meats are with blood still remaining. I don’t know about you, but I like my steak WELL DONE! I Genesis 25:30 “And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.”
Today’s Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. In Genesis 16:12, And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.” Isn’t it a fact that Muslims are wilding out as not only young men, but well into their middle age by joining terrorist groups and attaching bombs to themselves to kill innocent or people they view as their enemies?
Before the Greeks and Romans, who are one and the same, entered Egypt, they had no God, Goddess or gods. Nor did they have an alphabet. They were instead an agnostic, physical, psychopathic, illiterate, uncivilized European race of people who were not in-tune with the spiritual rhythm of the universe. (Walter Williams, Origins of Christianity, p73)
Jonas Liliequist has made a study of seventeenth-century trial records for bestiality in Sweden[…] It seems that young boys who spent a good deal of time herding animals (particularly cattle in this case) treated bestial intercourse as a game. They taught each other the techniques; they performed the activity in groups as well as individually. As Liliequist notes, “It was a boy’s game sometimes growing into a man’s habit.” In studying twentieth-century American life, Alfred Kinsey calculated that 40 to 50 percent of all farm boys experienced some sort of sexual animal contact. (Salisbury 84).
By the way, Joyce E. Salisbury is a white woman and Jonas Liliequist is a white man.
Again, I agree with you that all groups of people have a different spirit place upon them, and therefore, behave differently. It’s much deeper than the DNA factor as you put it.
However, the spirit of bestiality, incest and homosexuality are none more evident than within the group of people we commonly refer to today as the white race, which is actually Esau/Edom.
Again, homosexuality was introduced to the black race by whites.
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@blakksage
You are entitled to your beliefs.
I see your conflation of beastiality, incest, same gender loving (SGL)/gender non-conformity and anti-White bias as a ramshackle building built on a base of pea gravel.
If your belief system cannot make room for SGL people, so be it.
To express your disapproval by throwing people who have sex with animals, close relatives and the behavior of White Supremacists into the same building as SGL consenting adults who share sexual intimacy with other SGL consenting adults of the same gender weakens your building to the point of collapse.
In short, I find your argument dishonest and messy.
I understand these types of arguments are common among those who feel threatened by people who don’t conform to the sexual/gender majority. That doesn’t make the arguments effective or useful. They don’t express the real fear at the bottom of the argument. Talking about that fear would be useful—and honest.
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Who would choose to be homosexual given the widespread societal sanctions in place? Being homosexual is not a choice. I was born heterosexual the only thing informing my type or types of men I like, were the influences, conscious or unconscious I was exposed to. I certainly don’t conflate homosexuality with bestiality and incest. There are probably heterosexual people indulging in the same perversions.
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Since this thread is about Black women and white men, perhaps I could offer a personal narrative.
I had, a few years ago been in relationship with white men.
A little background- i am not married, although my hand in marriage was asked quite a few times. But this post is not about that.
I agree with almost all that TrojanPam has written about relationships between Black women and white men.
However, for me, I can’t, like a fascist ex-smoker or born again Christian, criticize or oppose other women’s choices.
I had found myself cornered by myself. With a growing understanding of white supremacy( even though I had lived under apartheid), it was impossible to continue in hypocrisy. I found myself severely compromised and could not square my relationship with my growing Black consciousness. For the most part, there was some kind of compatibility with things that are not essential lubricants- music, literature, secularism (which turned out to be antipodal to my understanding ). Of course, mutual respect is important in any relationship. But racism was the biggest issue which could not be transcended.
I had learnt a great deal when up close in an environment where there is entitlement and unexamined and unearned privilege. It is ugly. I think, it was this period where I had truly begun to understand that white men and women are almost incorrigible as regards racism. And no amount of benefit of the doubt, love, forgiveness and all that nonsense can bring about the desired rehabilitation.
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@Afrofem,
Our feelings are mutual, you are also entitled to your own beliefs as well. I hope you didn’t that I was trying to convince you or anyone else for that matter. That certainly wasn’t the case. My position is backed by the Bible and white historians who’ve written extensively about the same subject matter as well. To hold that DNA alone is the causative factor of, and therefore, explains the behavior whites in general or totality is quite shallow.
Darn it, … if you support bestiality, same sex unions and a host of other abominations, don’t be so hesitant, SAY IT LOUD AND BE PROUD! Just don’t expect yours truly to following in locked step with you because that’s not going to happen.
Throughout history, they’ve been many people attempt to save or justify the white man’s behavior and have failed miserably. Guess what, … the same applies here as well.
Therefore, carry on with your gay, same sex union, bestiality supportive agenda. Just don’t forget to be LOUD about it, if and when you exit the closet!
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Trevor Noah: African American- Immorality Act during apartheid and Hitler
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgZYCj39M38&spfreload=10)
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trojanpam? racismws? hmm not exactly on the same page. blakksage was channeling tbt/diary too lately with the trog thing, please!
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I don’t support homophobia at all and the conflation with sexual deviancy backed up with the bible verses Feeling sordid reading such vitriolic bile.
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@v8driver said: “trojanpam? racismws? hmm not exactly on the same page. blakksage was channeling tbt/diary too lately with the trog thing, please!”
LOL, look who’s talking!
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@taotesan said: “I don’t support homophobia at all and the conflation with sexual deviancy backed up with the bible verses Feeling sordid reading such vitriolic bile.”
To each, his own!
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@blakksage
“LOL, look who’s talking!”
what, pray tell, is that supposed to mean?
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@ Herneith
From what I’ve read, the vast majority of people participating in non-consensual sexual activities are heterosexual in orientation.
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@v8driver
Succinct as usual. (chuckle)
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@taotesean: Thanks for the YouTube link I happen to like Trevor Noah I watch him on Comedy Central he’s a funny guy. I heard him on one of my many favorite podcasts Pop Culture Happy Hour and he was being interviewed. I think it’s insightful to learn about the system of apartheid it very complex and insane. He is a mix of his black Hausa mother and Swiss father and he is considered illegal. That’s all kinds of insane. Thanks for sharing.
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@taotesan: I meant to say was considered illegal. The system is now dismantled. But the strange thing to me was all those white people in the famed Apollo Theater this was a place for black people and black entertainers. I guess because of all the gentrification in New York these spaces that were once black neighborhoods whites moved in and left many black people displaced.
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yeah well it’s not helping anyone going on about white people living in their own waste from human flesh in the caves like gollum
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Abagond,
this story slipped by you in the month of February.
I don’t know which of your categories this would fit into but it has a sort of-kind of “feminist” angle to it… but I have to say:
(sweet baby Jesus…after reading this, I have no words left.. for anything)
Renowned Austrian Composer Credits His Creativity to His ‘Slave Play’ Marriage to Black Sexuality Author
http://blackgirllonghair.com/2016/03/reknowned-austrian-composer-credits-his-creativity-to-his-slave-play-marriage-to-a-black-woman/
“On February 23, the New York Times profiled Georg Friedrich Haas, a 62-year-old Austrian composer and Columbia University professor whose works have been commissioned by opera houses worldwide.
The article praises Haas’ recent spurt in creativity and prolificness, recognized and applauded by his peers in the contemporary classical music industry. Haas credits his artistic revival to being dominant in a slave play relationship with his wife, Mollena Williams-Haas
Haas, who has been married 3 times before, says that his music was previously limited because of his inability to explore his sexual desires. His work is better now that he can, he says.
“The most important step,” he said, “was to accept, yes, I want to be dominant. Yes, I love to play with pain.” These are matters he had long considered, even if unconsciously, in his music, he said
Williams-Haas does not say much in the profile, aside from briefly speaking on the racial dynamic of a black woman playing slave to a white, European man.
“Ms. Williams-Haas, who described the situation as feminist because it is her choice, said, “I find intense fulfillment in being able to serve in this way.”
She conceded the discomfort many may feel with a black woman willingly submitting to a white man. “It’s a struggle to say, ‘This is genuinely who I am,’” she said. But she added, “To say I can’t play my personal psychodrama out just because I’m black, that’s racist.””
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I wish people in these ir relationships would educate themselves on the issue of race. Learn about the history of race and anti blackness in America, learn about Jim Crow past and present and learn work on their own biases, if they have any.
When I hear black women like singer K Michelle going off on black men and deciding to date white men because black men are bad and abusive or the white actor from Sex In the City who played the main character’s boyfriend who is married to a black women in real life saying “we are in a post racial America” , I just want to bury my head in a sand and not hear their nonsense.
It seems whether it’s wm/bw bm/ww or wm/aw, anti blackness continues to rear it’s ugly head.
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@taotesan
With great respect to you, Taotesan, my views diverge somewhat from yours on this issue.
I agree that the majority of European descent people are “…almost incorrigible as regards racism.” White Supremacist ideology is the lens through which the majority of Whites see the world. You and I, separated by thousands of miles of ocean and continents have experienced the ugliness of the White Supremacist worldview in our lives. In concrete and literal ways. We know we will have to deal with it for the rest of our days…and that knowledge is so depressing. So I understand why you came to the conclusion that nothing can bring about the desired rehabilitation in the White Supremacists we both have to deal with on a daily basis.
Years ago, I read Professor Derrick Bell’s Faces At The Bottom Of The Well. Professor Bells’ central thesis was:
I found those words and the rest of his book liberating. My hoping, wishing and dreaming that White people would wake up one morning and say, “we should stop mistreating Black people” evaporated like morning dew in the hot sun. I realized they were not going to change in my lifetime so I had to change my outlook. My expectations of White folk as a group dropped down to the level of whale carcasses.
At the same time, I made a decision to see White individuals as fully human and multi-faceted. I refuse to see them as either demons or demigods. I made this shift in thinking because when I saw myself as fully human, I was able to see the full humanity in all others. This shift allowed me to have positive, nuanced and loving relationships with White individuals as well as other people.
I stopped expecting any sort of rehabilitation on the part of European descent people. I know I will have to struggle with White Supremacist ideology, attitudes and actions for the rest of my life. Whites are particularly scary right now because of their fear of both change and loss of status. Yet, I think of the struggles of my own parents and their parents and realize if they could resist, endure and make a way out of no way, so can I.
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@Afrofem: I would like to read Faces At The Bottom Of The Well. Thanks for the recommendation.
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Re: Linda’s link about the odd couple.
It’s impolitic (to me) that these two would publicize* the particular theme they use as a vehicle for their dominance/submission play. However, it’s up to them what theme they wish to use. If Haas (the man) doesn’t actually feel superior to his wife racially and she doesn’t feel inferior to him, then I (not that they need my approval) don’t see a problem with their relationship that distinguishes it from any other dominance/submission relationship.
Ms. William-Haas may be a screwed up cookie but even if she is, her relationship with Haas is a private matter.
Something else to note is that the theme they act out is, I’m sure, an outlier among IR couples; in other words not characteristic of IR couples. There are always cases of extreme or offensive (to the norm of society) sexual behavior.
I disagree with Ms. William-Haas’ judgement that her slave play is “feminist” because it’s “her choice”. It’s not her choice, it’s their choice, she’s not doing this thing by herself; she’s trying to generate more gravitas than is warrented:
what she’s doing with him isn’t “feminist”, it’s consensual (Ms. Haas trying to score cheap points with those women who are ever seeking “empowerment”)
Having said all that, I get it if these two turn many a stomach. But we should quickly move on after the initial nausea: they are one couple out of millions, with an (off putting) outlier aspect to their relationship, in the psycho-sexual department.
————
*Ms. William-Haas apparently has a website about her sexual interests/practices (I didn’t feel the need to seek it out for the purposes of my brief post) and so I guess giving interviews about what she’s doing with Haas follows normally, for her.
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On a personal note:
Linda’s link is a sensational news story. (Nothing agaist you for posting it Linda, I’m just making a point.) Because it is an outlier, it’s sort of ironically banal because one would not find this sort of couple as a frequent occurrence when observing IR couples. For me, the Haas couple are like a cartoon: I’ll never meet a pair of people like that. I am more likely to meet a pair of people like the two fictional characters in Americahnah (sorry, sp) depicted in the “Not one of them looks like me” post. It isn’t the asteroid from outer space that we need to buy insurance on but rather more “homegrown” problems like a flood in your basement.
The problems that can crop up between IR couples are more “down to earth”, if I can put it that way. The couple above in Linda’s link are more the stuff of “reality t.v.”.
^Anyway, that’s really all an off topic aside. Abagond’s post is not about IR couples, it is about a specific type of IR couple. So, my aside now comes to an end.
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Legion,
I did indeed find their relationship stomach turning more … she likes wearing a “collar” in order to validate his “ownership” of her…disgusting….to me
I think that when I saw the article, why I wanted to post it, was because it brought to mind a theme of black women as “sexual objects” by white men
in Europe, they are very open that they believe black women are “exotic”… notice Mr. Haas is Austrian
to use a phrase of commenter louis2decaro, in Europe black women are seen as “exotic positive”… marriage material but it also comes with the sexual stereotypes attached…. I find this sort of objectification of black women to be a fetish.
but in America, the sexualization of black women by white men, is not a “positive” and this objectification has had historical negative consequences for black women..rape by white men.
Is Mrs. Haas the only black American woman willing to debase herself for love, in order to please her partner in a dominant/submissive relationship?
probably not because regardless of colour
anyway, it sure takes some balls to publicly share the intimate details of that kind of relationship.
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@ Linda
Small point :
Because, the story of those two is so off putting, I mentally edited out the collar, until rereading it in your response.
Larger comment:
to use a phrase of commenter louis2decaro, in Europe black women are seen as “exotic positive”… marriage material but it also comes with the sexual stereotypes attached…. I find this sort of objectification of black women to be a fetish.
I don’t think of fetishes as bad in and of themselves. They seem inescapable (childhood psychological formation is a complex tangled ball, from what I have seen, in myself and in others). The thing about them [fetishes], in my opinion, is that when one reaches adulthood, it’s a good idea to try and evolve beyond the fetish: the gains in maturity are valuable. In the case of the Haas couple Mr. Haas seems to believe he is dealing with his fetish constructively [by indulging in it], but he is probably misleading himself. BUT!, he has a partner who is willing to facilitate the misleading, they are going off into the sunset together…
If one refuses to break free from the silly,stupid,or distorted ideas one may hold about the opposite sex (mixed in with unexamined perceptions about race) then it can feel normal to indulge the fetish because one is operating as a fish in a bowl. Mr. Haas is a cautionary tale.
but in America, the sexualization of black women by white men, is not a “positive” and this objectification has had historical negative consequences for black women..rape by white men.
^That sort of white male psyche is a problem. Probably greater in scope than I have ever taken the time to delve into and become more conscious of. It is the sort of problem that the sun should not set on.
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I meant to say the following too:
anyway, it sure takes some balls to publicly share the intimate details of that kind of relationship.
Yeah, I feel like I’m more appalled that they’re publically sharing this than that they’re actually doing the practices they described (though the theme of their submission/dominance play is not my cup of tea either, to put it lightly).
Something, revolting seemed to have happened decades ago: this immoral and weak excessive openness about the most private matters of one’s personal world. Where the catalyst for such inappropriate openness came from, I’m not too sure. It’s probably foolish to look for a single catalyst. I suppose in the push to various forms of social liberation and expression the pendulum swings too far and the outliar crowd indulges in their “freedom of speech” to inform others of matters best kept private!
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@ Mary Burrell
I hope you find it as useful as I did.
Professor Bell was such a committed anti-racist that Fox News was still attacking him and trying to defame him after he died. He really walked his talk.
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@blakksage
Still hiding your fear?
How do the private actions of consenting adults affect your life?
How do they prevent you from living a rich, full loving life with the woman of your choice?
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You forgot the part about black women dating white men so that their kids can have that so called good hair
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@ Afrofem
(Sorry,long reply again).
“At the same time, I made a decision to see White individuals as fully human and multi-faceted. I refuse to see them as either demons or demigods. I made this shift in thinking because when I saw myself as fully human, I was able to see the full humanity in all others. This shift allowed me to have positive, nuanced and loving relationships with White individuals as well as other people.”
Wow! That is a familiarly similar way to how I had approached dealing with white people post-apartheid. I never saw them as demons or demi-gods though.
Steve Biko: ( and to tie in with the previous debate regarding racism).
“Even today, we are still accused of racism. This is a mistake. We know that all interracial groups in South Africa are relationships in which whites are superior, blacks inferior. So as a prelude whites must be made to realize that they are only human, not superior. Same with blacks. They must be made to realize that they are also human, not inferior.”
It was in the period in our country’s democratic transition, when trying to forge a way forward, that I( we) had listened to Archbishop Tutu and Nelson Mandela about forgiveness and reconciliation. It WAS a one-way street, though with Black people magnanimously gesturing the hand of forgiveness and to this day witnessing and experiencing the outright dismissal and attrition of that reconciliation.
I prefer Malcolm X’s approach: ” I will not tire of telling the white man what I think of him.”
I am getting off the point, but want to explain my departure from seeing them any more than they are. To be sure, not pre-judging and suspending one’s own preconceived ideas, allows one to try see to all others in their multi-dimensionality .James Baldwin writes about loving them in their innocence.
For me, it is in my own lovingness, I see them as human.
I have gone from a fatalist to cautious optimist to wide-eyed realist.
I have no expectation of white people today. (in South Africa). That “SORRY” was never going to come because they are/were not sorry about apartheid. It was NOT an aberration but the will of the (white) people. I do not care that they could be the nicest people on the planet or not, they must just give us back our land and minerals.
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@ Mary Burrell
I agree with you that Trevor (met him once) is smart and very funny. Also that his comedy is without the vulgarity and profanity. I think you can catch a documentary on his life before moving to the US on Netflix: “You laugh, but it’s true.”.
Perhaps Abagond would do a post on him in the future.
Two points, though, Mary, its the Apollo Theatre in London and not in Harlem.
The Hausa live mostly in Nigeria. Trevor’s mother is Xhosa. the most famous Xhosa is Nelson Mandela.
Trevor Noah’s mother ( although never stated) could have been beaten up by the police and given a prison sentence. Having relations across the colour bar was a criminal act. under the Immorality Act. You are right: it was INSANITY
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^^^ cursor jumps all over the show – full stops in the wrong places.
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@taotesan
Oh yeah! “Wide-eyed realist” is a place of power. No more illusions or delusions. No more hoping, wishing or dreaming. All of that is replaced with acceptance of what is right in front of you and a determination to change it, if it needs changing and the wisdom to know the difference.
I understand your sentiment, Taotesan.
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With regards to the convo about homosexuality. Its also my belief that most gay people are born that way. I say most because I also believe that victims of child sexual abuse often grow up to be gay.
However Umar Johnson made a very valid point that if we accept that homosexuality is a natural trait then paedophiles will be able to argue the same. After all, is sexual orientation not driven by who you find sexually attractive?
Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not equating consensual sex between two adults of the same sex with the manipulation and down right rape of innocent children, but paedophiles will be able to argue that they just find children sexually attractive and can’t help it. I think this pint is a very interesting one and has cast doubts over my belief.
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However, there are also a lot of people who seem to drift between homosexuality and heterosexuality back and forth. Not exactly classic “bisexuality” where people feel drawn to either gender. But rather switches in attraction from one gender long term, to the other.
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@taotesean: Thank you for responding I enjoy you as a commentator and thanks for the clarification about the Apollo theaters. Keep posting always look forward to reading you.
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@Afrofem: I eloquent words describing expectations of white people changing. Your post gave me much consideration on the racial dynamic in this country. I am glad you are a commentator on this forum.
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@Afrofem: I love your eloquent words is what I meant to say in my previous post. Keep posting enjoy reading you.
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@taotesean: I have requested twice for Abagond to do a post on Trevor Noah.
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I think that Black Empowerment Movement is just kookoo bananas. If a black woman wants to marry a white man that’s fine. People just marry or date whom they want to. But to just paint all black men with the same dirty paint brush is wrong. That movement is just wrong, they are hooking up with white men for the wrong reasons.
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@SSD
I’m glad you brought up those points.
To me, the critical factor in sexual relationships is consent.
I feel that when people compare beastiality, incest or pedophilia to homosexuality they are making false comparisons. Animals don’t have the capacity to consent. Close family members (especially younger, less powerful family members) can’t consent. Children can’t consent. Rape is a crime because there is no consent between the people involved.
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@ Mary Burrell
Thanks. I enjoy your commentary because it is so genuine. I often learn a lot from you.
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@King
I’ve noticed that too; a sort of fluid sexuality. Any theories?
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It would be interesting to see a post (or more research in our society) on black women and non-black men. This is a demographic I’m interested in learning more about, personally.
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@Mary Burrell
Thank you for making me smile. And I echo Afrofem’s comment.
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Ms. J
I second your interest in a post about Black women and non-Black men.
I have female relatives who are married to Asian and Latino men. It would be good to see what Abagond digs up about such couples.
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I don’t have ears to listen to those words which blame and undermine white men.everyone person in this globe has better accept the truth white men are sweet humble and respectful to all creatures.
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@Eyerusalem
ROTFL!!!
Thanks for the hilarious holiday joke!
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@Eyerusalem: Pure comedy 😝
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Eyerusalem, are you referring to dead things?
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It simple. Nature intended humans like other species of animals leopards, tiger, langur monkeys, macaque monkeys, common mynas, hill mynas etc to stick with their own kind. People are scared to bat an eyelid these days when they see inter racial couples. But trust me they still look well…’not quite right’ it’s natural to get a disapproval or other reaction as it’s seen as a threat to your own people race and community.
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@Edward
“Nature intended humans like other species of animals leopards, tiger, langur monkeys, macaque monkeys, common mynas, hill mynas etc to stick with their own kind.”
LOL! Were you asleep during science class?
Pale humans and dark humans are all still human. If you are not human perhaps you could check yourself into a research facility for testing. I would love to learn about how you diverge from the rest of us humans.
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@Edward: Your post leaves me gob smacked.
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SILKY HAIRED PEOPLE are DESIRABLE.
KINKY NAPPY BRILLO {AD HAIR is gross.
Why are Indians , Koreans, Russians aka Asians and Caucasians havin Silky Bouncy Sexy Hair, but the Negroids have Kinky Hair they themselves loath.
WHY do Asians have Higher IQ than Whites even, while all Races have Much Higher IQ than Negroids. Asians and Caucasians make Major Advances Space Ships, but no Negro Majority nation ever has.
Why do all Races do well in USA and EU, but As Hillary Clinton says the Negroids are NEver do Wells, they alone need Afrirmative Action, is it the Low DNA IQ, its Dominate this Low IQ genes.
https://www.darkmoon.me/2017/white-genocide-by-design-the-role-of-the-mass-media-in-the-destruction-of-the-european-people/
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@ Lisa Lant
sigh
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Judging by your rant and lack of literacy, you aren’t one of these ‘superior’ races. The product of generations of inbreeding more like.
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Lisa Lant, please tell me what “genes” are, where they are located and how they make high and low IQs. While you’re at it, tell me how “IQs” ‘measure’ intelligence? What’s the connection between “Higher IQ” and ” havin (sic) Silky Bouncy Sexy Hair”?
How are successful “Negroids” such as black billionaires, artists, lawyers, and other professionals able to do so much better than the average “Indians , Koreans, Russians aka Asians and Caucasians havin (sic) Silky Bouncy Sexy Hair”, even without “Afrirmative (sic)Action”?
Last but not least, how come people like the Dumas’, Pushkin, Matzeliger and Jones, with their more “KINKY NAPPY BRILLO {AD HAIR is gross.” able to outshine their “SILKY HAIRED PEOPLE are DESIRABLE.” relatives?
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Lisa Lant, please tell me what “genes” are, where they are located and how they make high and low IQs.
‘Lisa’, probably thinks ‘genes’ are the ones you wear.
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I am a GenX white man (mid forties) married to a black woman. She was the first black girl I ever dated and the last girl I ever wanted. She had dated white and black in high school and college. We were in college when we met. We have been together for 23 years, and married for almost 18. We have 4 kids. She still looks gorgeous, and she still calls me handsome, though she may be trying to be nice these days.
I have dozens of white male friends. I do not know a single white male friend of mine who thinks black women are inherently less attractive than white women. They all find women to be women from a physical attractiveness standpoint.
I have one white male friend that I suspect was not open to marrying outside of his race, which I discerned from comments he made about children and fear that they would not be accepted. But he has never been anything but supportive and a good friend to my wife, children and me. Regardless, if my suspicions are correct, and I am not sure they are, he did not find black women unattractive, he just may have feared the repurcussions of an interracial marriage.
Women are women. Some are pretty, some are not traditionally beautiful, some are smart, and some have to work a little harder, some are funny and some are serious, some are bitter and some are sweet. This is true in all races.
I have sometimes read that white men “fetishize” black women and that’s why they desire a black woman, or that black women have “self-hate” and that’s why they may pick a white man. That may be true one or two times out of a hundred.
But you don’t stay with a person for 23 years because of a fetish, or out of self-loathing. The curiosity and novelty that I felt when we first dated lasted maybe a few months, as such things do in any relationship. Maybe when we first dated, the look of her dark hand in mine was a thrill.
Nearly a generation later, I still feel a thrill, but it is the thrill of felling her hand – my woman’s hand – still holding mine after all this time. We’ve had our ups and downs, and we have been richer and poorer. We have weathered it all together.
The highlight of my week is still standing in the kitchen on a Friday night cooking dinner together and catching an hour away from kids and work. She sips her glass of wine, and I enjoy my snifter of bourbon.
And we laugh together. We laugh a lot.
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Lisa Lant’s hateful comment is one that I have (unfortunately) heard from racists my whole life.
Hair is just one of the things they use to put Black people down. Well, Lisa (if that is your real name) your silky hair is obviously the only positive attribute about you.
You are probably unattractive otherwise. But you think your hair makes up for that, don’t you?
As for low intelligence? That certainly does describe you.
Lisa, there are many Black (and other types of women) who can blow you out of the water with their class, beauty, femininity and intellect.
And some of them have what you call “kinky nappy brillo” hair. That’s the type of hair I have, and I would bet the farm that I am STILL way more attractive than you.
Racists like you have been delusional for centuries about where you stand compared to other people. Silky hair doesn’t make up for an ugly face, an ugly heart, and you’re probably obese too (I notice that it’s almost never the pretty white women who are racist, only the dogs).
Your hair is what makes you feel better about yourself, because the rest of you is probably a pitiful sight.
Sit there behind your keyboard smelling like dog urine and tell yourself that your stringy greasy hair is better. The meth went to your brain, which is why you think everybody else isn’t as smart as you with your superior whiteness. It used to hurt when I would meet people like you…now I simply laugh.
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To the fellow who commented about his wife…that is truly wonderful! Wishing you both many more years of love.
Abagond makes many valid points about the WM/BW dynamic. I think for any interracial relationship to work, awareness is key.
The other person must be willing to understand certain issues without being defensive, and there is also the matter of possibly dealing with racist in-laws, friends, etc.
And if the subject of children comes up, conversations need to be had so you know where you stand.
I find that some white men will have sex with a Black woman (they might marry her) but they won’t want children with her. And frankly (in my experience) they can be dishonest about their motives.
As to beauty standards…even I, as a light-skinned woman of mixed race, am considered “too black” or “too ethnic” by some people.
Abagond has written some very insightful posts on how racism has influenced perceptions of beauty.
I see no problem with a white man finding beauty in white women. That’s natural. The problem is when some white men put down other races of women, or they look to exploit us in some way.
There is also a problem if a white man can’t see beauty (AT ALL) in other races of women. No one is saying date a Black woman if you don’t want to…but I find it odd when smart, attractive women of color are overlooked or mistreated in favor of trash.
Sorry if that is harsh but I’ve noticed it from the time I hit puberty.
The Euro ideal of beauty has made the lowest of white women feel that they are above the most top-tier minority women.
Case in point, Lisa Lant with her comments above. You can have Becky who weighs 450 lbs. with poor hygiene who still sees herself as prettier than a Black or Asian woman. My husband of nearly 13 years is white and I am the only non-white woman he has ever been with. We have had to work through our differences at times, but we love one another.
The in-laws have been decent to me despite some problematic statements they’ve made. He had to cut off one friend who repeatedly disrespected me. Some white women are visibly upset at seeing him with me. There was also an old girlfriend he had that was trying to pop back into his life, although she is married with kids.
I think if you are a minority woman dating or married to a white man, it can be wonderful, but you both have to be aware of things and protect your relationship from outside influences.
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@M – there’s nothing wrong with preferring straight, silky hair. Most people find their own race the most attractive, and as long as you don’t mistreat other races, there’s nothing wrong with preferring to date within your own.
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