Temujin (c. 1162-1227), or Тэмүжин in Mongolian, is better known by his title, Genghis Khan (or Chinggis Khan, among scholars), founded the Mongol Empire, one of he largest ever by land. Only the British Empire was larger, and not by much. It was also one of the bloodiest, killing 30 to 40 million people by some estimates. So many that it led to a marked drop in carbon dioxide levels. Kublai Khan was his grandson.
He is a huge hero in his native Mongolia, honoured in China but is seen as a barbarian destroyer pretty much everywhere else, especially in Russia.
His army rode on small horses. Their main weapon were bows and arrows. It seemed laughable at first sight. Yet his army could move faster and shoot farther. Their arrows could go right through armour. They could act as one across hundreds of kilometres – a trick the West did not master till the 1800s.
His empire at his death stretched from the Pacific Ocean to the Caspian Sea. He ruled all of what is now Mongolia and Central Asia, part of Siberia and part of northern China. His armies got as far west as the Black Sea, fighting the Russians. After his death his sons and grandsons would take over the rest of China and much of Russia and South West Asia.
He had utter confidence in himself because he knew that Heaven, for reasons of its own, was on his side. He had no idea how to take over cities, for example, but in no time his army was using catapults and all the rest. And he came up with tricks of his own, like putting people from nearby towns on the front lines, knowing that people in the city would not want to kill their own relatives.
Mass killings: Cities that joined his side without a fight he would leave pretty much untouched. Those that put up a fight he massacred.
Race: He thought Mongols were better than everyone else, but he did not divide mankind into races. His mass killings were an instrument of terror, not genocide. Unlike Nazi Germany or the US, he was not trying to clear the land to give his own people living space (Lebensraum).
Personnel policy: He appointed people based on talent and loyalty, not wealth or blue blood. He kept the sons of his top generals hostage.
The heart of his empire was the steppe, the sea of grass that runs through the middle of Eurasia from Hungary in the west to Manchuria in the east. From there the Mongols could strike south at the lands of farms and cities, like China and Persia (Iran).
Also at the heart of his empire was the Silk Road, the main trade route across Eurasia. The Mongol peace, the Pax Mongolica, allowed trade and ideas to flow more freely along the Road. This allowed Marco Polo to visit China, for example. It brought inventions, like paper, printing, gunpowder and the compass, to the West. And it may have brought the Black Death too, which some say came from the marmots of Mongolia.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
- Welcome to Asian American History Month 2015
- British Empire
- Asian Atrocity argument
- Racism before 1400
- “Take Japan, for instance”
- Columbus
- Tamerlane
- Guide to Turks
536
“Race: He thought Mongols were better than everyone else, but he did not divide mankind into races. His mass killings were an instrument of terror, not genocide. Unlike Nazi Germany or the US,, he was not trying to clear the land to give his own people living space (Lebensraum).”
That sounds to me like projecting present values/concepts onto another time and place that’s irrelevant. It wasn’t till the world got a lot smaller that race would become a useful divider. Butchering a culture into extinction is about as racist as you can get, And yes, it is genocide. If you’re one of the poor suckers left burying a culture that’s vanished from the face of the earth, it was an absolute genocide to you.
I define racism as indifference or malevolence expressed towards others because you don’t consider them your ‘type,’ however you choose to define ‘type.’ I don’t think you want to sound like you’re apologizing for someone who killed so many people the world’s C02 levels dropped. ‘Oh, but he wasn’t just abusing a specific ‘race’ so that’s not so bad.’
Defining it otherwise to me encourages more indifference that destroys the credibility of a very vulnerable minority that is only 12% of a population dominated by a VERY aggressive majority, credibility that may in fact be one of the only things protecting it from the extinction that majority is wreaking on others worldwide, regardless of race.
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[…] Temujin (c. 1162-1227), better known by his title, Genghis Khan (or Chinggis Khan among scholars), founded the Mongol Empire, one of he largest ever by land. Only the British Empire was larger, and… […]
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He’s still a grade A scumbag in my book. I don’t like people that think they are better everybody else or know more than everybody else that they’ve never known.
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BTW, How do you even differentiate that his mass killings were just terror and not that he was trying to clear land for his own people? That sounds like propaganda bs. You actually have conquer and clear land for you empire right? I dunno what to think of it. I just know that if I was a small practical man in village with his family I would see him and the Mongols as monsters as they slaughtered me and my family.
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There are probably no sources on the matter, but I consider it extremely unlikely that the Mongols wanted to clear space to settle it themselves. The various Central Asian people who invaded the Eurasian civilization belt were attracted by the wealth of the agricultural civilizations, both the abundance of food and manifactured goods. If you exterminate the population you won’t have those.
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Most empires are not about clearing land for settlement, but about milking other people of their wealth. That was true even of the British Empire for the most part. Most people in, say, South Africa, Iraq or Egypt, are not of British descent. Likewise, most people in Britain are not of Roman descent. Settler colonialism is more the exception than the rule.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
1. In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism. That is dangerous because it makes them think it is part of human nature, something they are helpless to do much about.
2. You do not need to be racist to kill millions of people, though it helps. Millions died on the western front in the First World War. Mao caused the death of millions of Han Chinese. Etc.
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Agreed with abagond. Racism is not default human nature. It’s an aberration.
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“1. In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism. That is dangerous because it makes them think it is part of human nature, something they are helpless to do much about.” Abagond, is your blog an attempt to help white people get over their racism? If it is, how are you measuring your failure or success? White people don’t need Mr. Khan to ‘normalize’ their racism, all they have to do is turn on the radio or any other component of the mass media for that.
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Abagond, you seem to believe that racism is against ‘human nature’, why? Humans have done a number of things to each other and other living things that are horrible. Why do you seem to exclude these things from ‘human nature’ or am I misreading you? ‘Human nature’ should explain both the good and evil side of human beings. Speaking of good and evil, aren’t these things determined based on who’s ox is being gored? It’s pretty hard to convince somebody that the system he/she benefits from is ‘evil’.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Racism is a side effect of Western imperialism, in particular slavery and settler colonialism. Arabs and Mongols practised imperialism but not settler colonialism, at least not on a large scale. They had slaves but they did not all come from a single “race” different from their own.
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@ gro jo
Racism is supported by ethnocentrism, which seems to be a human universal. But if racism itself was part of human nature, it would be way more common throughout history. The ancient Greeks, for example, were certainly ethnocentric – they divided the world into Greeks and barbarians – but that was based on culture, not physical characteristics.
Human nature is a mix of good and evil, but it does not follow that racism is necessarily part of that. From an evolutionary point of view, it is unlikely to be since for most of the history of the species people did not travel far enough to see other “races”.
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@ gro jo
No. I know they are beyond my powers of persuasion, that racism is not that “rational”. But White people do come to my blog from time to time and say irrational things that they think are rational.
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I find the difference in perception of the Mongols between Russia and China very interesting. That he is considered a hero in Mongolia is not very surprising. That China remembers Ghengis Khan positivly could be caused by the fact that the Mongolian Yuan dynasty eventually became “Chinese” in memory (I have know idea if the Yuan dynasty actually was seen as such by the contemporaries). Russia on the other hand fought during their imperial expansion against people who could be identified with the Mongols of the 13th century, so there was good cause to demonize Genghis Khan.
Does anybody know how the Mongols are remembered in the Arab World?
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As savages of course.
They destroyed Bagdad in 1258 killing almost the entire civilian population.
Arab sources claim 2 million people were massacred but most Western historians believe the dead toll didn’t exceed 800.000 people. Still plenty though…
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How can racism be a part of human nature when it is not something one is born with? It has to be taught…..always. Babies JUST ARE NOT BORN RACIST . No matter the culture or ethnicity.
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[…] Temujin (c. 1162-1227), better known by his title, Genghis Khan (or Chinggis Khan, among scholars), founded the Mongol Empire, one of he largest ever by land. Only the British Empire was larger, and not by much. It was also one of the bloodiest, killing 30 to 40 million people by some estimates. So many that it led to a marked drop in carbon dioxide levels.He is a huge hero in his native Mongolia, honoured in China but is seen as a barbarian destroyer pretty much everywhere else, especially in Russia.Continue reading… […]
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@Jacque
I agree. Kids will play with whoever even if they notice differences in skin color, hair, or other features.
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I just read a really interesting book about the genetic material Genghis Khan and his son left behind (his super-Y chormosome). According to DNA testing, his descendents reside in the entire area depicted by your 1279 map.
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To Abagond:
In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism.
I can’t recall a single time that Genghis Khan has been described as racist, perhaps one or two commenters on your blog may have suggested as such but I seriously doubt this is a common belief among whites. The Mongols could certainly be ruthless (and perhaps on a per capita basis killed a higher percentage of the world population than any other conquerors..) but in they operated more in a fashion similar to Stalin than Hitler.
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… ethnocentrism, which seems to be a human universal.
“Seems” is the key. Needing to belong (to a group) seems, to me, to be the human universal. Ethnocentrism would just be an optional chosen expression, of a more fundamental human universal.
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@UM,
Not sure if you have been living under a rock for the past 6-7 decades, but we have seen it from dozens of commenters on this blog. It is one of the motivations to create the Asian Atrocity Argument post in the first place. Usually it is one of 3 references:
– Mao, during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural revolution
– the Japanese during the Sino-Japanese war and WWII
– Genghis Khan and the Mongols
I have heard all 3 probably at least hundreds of times since my early childhood. Maybe it was because I was the target of such beliefs (eg., from Vietnam vets who had to justify the atrocities in Vietnam or why Asians should be excluded from immigrating to the USA). The psychologically traumatizing ones were the ones that came from my grandmother’s mouth.
Rarely do we hear about the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, however, or the Indonesians in East Timor.
Now, you *might* argue that when people discuss Mongol atrocities, not all will directly say that Mongols did it out of racism, but when white people justify their atrocities by using Genghis Khan as an example, that is most unquestionably an example of white racism (where whites will make an assumption that racism was a factor in Mongol atrocities). That supports Abagond’s statement.
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[…] Temujin (c. 1162-1227), better known by his title, Genghis Khan (or Chinggis Khan, among scholars), founded the Mongol Empire, one of he largest ever by land. Only the British Empire was larger, and not by much. It was also one of the bloodiest, killing 30 to 40 million people by some estimates. So many that it led to a marked drop in carbon dioxide levels.He is a huge hero in his native Mongolia, honoured in China but is seen as a barbarian destroyer pretty much everywhere else, especially in Russia. Continue reading… […]
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Not sure if I am getting this right….
The Mongol Empire had 4 (?) parts, the Golden Horde (around Russia) the Yuan (China) the Ilkhanate ( around Persia) and the Chagatai Khanate sandwiched between the Ilkhanate and the Yuan.
(later the Ikhanate, the Chagatai khanate and the Tughlaq Dynasty(Dehli Sultanate) was taken over by Tamerlane…I think?…)
Pax Mongolica—It is possible trade increased …but, both the silk route and the spice trade were already operating before Islam came on the scene and the “Golden age” period of Islam would not have happened without the knowledge and technology transfer (Paper were already mass produced In the Islamic Empire by the 8th century….)…and I think there was a lot of rivalry and fighting between the khanates..?….
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Hi Legion! 🙂
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Jefe:
To recap
Abagond said:
“In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he (Genghis Khan) was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism. ”
Uncle Milton said:
“I can’t recall a single time that Genghis Khan has been described as racist, perhaps one or two commenters on your blog may have suggested as such but I seriously doubt this is a common belief among whites.”
Jefe said:
“Not sure if you have been living under a rock for the past 6-7 decades”
“when people discuss Mongol atrocities, not all will directly say that Mongols did it out of racism..”
If you have seen articles written by whites discussing Mongolian racism under Genghis or Kublai Khan, please post them here as I have never encountered them.
Jefe said:
“– Mao, during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural revolution”
To the best of my knowledge, Mao and the Chinese communists did not make racism a policy as part of their governance.
“– the Japanese during the Sino-Japanese war and WWII..”
As you probably know the Japanese Imperial army during those two wars, most assuredly had racist policies but that was not part of the original discussion.
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To Jefe:
“Rarely do we hear about the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, however, or the Indonesians in East Timor.”
Well…608 thousands hits on Google for Khmer Rouge Genocide and 371 hits for East Timor genocide versus 239 thousand for Mongol genocide, 257 thousand for Mongol atrocities, 116 thousand for Genghis Kahn genocide, or 126 thousand for Genghis Khan atrocities.
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Hey girl! 🙂
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“The psychologically traumatizing ones were the ones that came from my grandmother’s mouth.”
What did she say?
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Got to agree with Uncle Milton here; I have literally never heard anybody ever refer to Genghis Khan as “racist”.
Not in school, not in college, not by whatever random conversations he pops up in.
He’s always a conqueror.
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Milton said: I can’t recall a single time that Genghis Khan has been described as racist, perhaps one or two commenters on your blog may have suggested as such but I seriously doubt this is a common belief among whites.
Yeah, I’m agreeing with Milton too, on this. There’s no way that it’s an actual paradigm or a conventional wisdom that Khan was a “racist”. It’s silly because it’s veeeeery anachronistic to say something like that of Khan. As another commenter said Khan is understood as a conqueror! Khan as a conqueror is indeed the broad paradigm/conventional wisdom. And it’s no anachronism to think of him as a conqueror-indeed it shows an implicit understanding that conquering was the normal mode of aggressive expansion.
@ Jefe
Commenters on this blog who may have said that Khan was racist are not a representation of orthodox thinking, therefore it’s not relevant to use them as a counter argument to what Milton has said. Milton stuck with whether Khan is spoken of as a racist in the general population of whites in America. The fringe comments of some people on a fringe blog (no dis intended Abagond) don’t (in this case) address Milton’s comment about the broad population of whites and their understanding of Khan as a historical figure.
(If a dozen or more of us make various comments in the Stoic Philosophy thread, it would not indicate popularity of nor broad knowledge of Stoic philosophy among the broad [American] population.)
@ Abagond
Like Gro Jo says whites can and do normalize racism with much easier less reaching examples: White Inventor Argument, Broken Africa, Percentage contribution by Black Americans to national crime stats relative to portion of society that black Americans make up, etc.
In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism.
^ That seems very unlikely to me. What seems more likely is that they are already racist and simply (re)invent Khan (or someone else) as racist; knowing damn well that they are stretching in the most bizarre way. The anachronism is so strange it just can’t be taken seriously. Again, these people you refer to, I can’t imagine they are a significant enough number of people to have referred to them as a relevant experience (relevant for social understanding, that is).
I don’t doubt your experience Abagond, what I’m saying is that these whites must be just grabbing at something that they are actually insincere about: It’s just a way for them to shut down discussion by being laughably anachronistic. I also don’t think this is many whites who might say/think this.
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@ Uncle Milton @ Legion
I do not know how “common” or “orthodox” it is to see Genghis Khan as racist. I have not done a survey. But it certainly comes up. I hardly have to go through my comment archive to find examples. Just scroll up. Linda Keres Carter says that he is about as racist as you can get. TeddyBearSniffer takes it for granted that Genghis Khan, as an empire builder, practised ethnic cleansing.
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@ Uncle Milton @ Legion
According to Google, just now in 2015, of the web pages that mention both “Genghis Khan” and the year of his death (1227), 47% also use the word “racist”, 65% use the word “genocide”. So this idea that he was racist is hardly limited to “The fringe comments of some people on a fringe blog.”
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We seem to disagree on the definition of the word ‘racist.’ It seems you use it to refer strictly to abusive/exploitive behaviors towards people of color. I’ve noticed younger people returning to the original usage. Back in the 19th century, you’d find tons of ‘scientific’ discussions by upper crust Brits analyzing the subhuman character of the ‘cockney’ race (classism). The damage done to the human psyche by these various ‘isms’ is fairly identical and when those victims can relate to each other as allies and pay respectful attention to each other healing and progress commences.
That was going on in the Civil Rights era. Remember all the other forms of ‘liberation’ that became popular on its heels? And I do believe a lot of the mainstream people who got involved in Civil Rights did so because it spoke to some damage of their own they were vicariously dealing with in a productive way. They weren’t so much doing good for the poor ‘coloreds.’ They were responding to constructive leadership that was leading them out of their own personal hells. As lost, genocided souls that was certainly what was going on with us. It’s because of that leadership that the word ‘racism’ is now becoming generic for the victimizations of humanity in all their forms.
When the ‘isms’ fracture and dismiss one another they remain subject to their oppression. It’s just damaging venting behavior that heals no one while spreading more misery around . I call it ‘passing’ behavior since it’s at the heart of what the immigrants were doing when they took all their trauma with Old World classism and thought they were handing it off to the ‘coloreds.’
In fact, they were turning it into generational distress that still haunts them. And yes, people of color can indulge themselves in ‘passing’ behavior as readily as anyone, and since the handiest targets they’ll tend to have are people not of color who present themselves as allies, that’s who they’ll tend to dump on.
I say all this is dangerous because one of the first things the US did when it went to instigate the race war that led to our extinction (minority Serbs of Croatia) was to provoke events that would heighten the polarities between the ‘races’ at hand. The ‘whose $hit is worse’ game went on at a fever pitch. That game heightens polarities. That’s the first order of business in eliminating all or part of a minority. And people here are jumping on that boat just as readily as they did over there.
Will it have the same result?
BTW, no one has my permission to use anything I say as a dismissal of anyone else’s victimization.
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“Racism is a side effect of Western imperialism, in particular slavery and settler colonialism. Arabs and Mongols practised imperialism but not settler colonialism, at least not on a large scale. They had slaves but they did not all come from a single “race” different from their own.”
They sure practiced some settler colonialism on top of us. But only for a half a millennia. We weren’t kidnapped to another continent, they just moved the border so we were suddenly part of another sub-continent. The bottom part. And we were a single ‘race’ as they saw it, although we got to looking a lot more like them over time. Heck, put a hijab on me and I’d pass for one of them. Those looks come from a single line of judicial code: “The testimony of a Serb against a Turk is inadmissible in court.”
But we really didn’t mind it. Every one of us chose to be a slave. That’s one of the things we’re hated for. Totally weird people who would choose to be slaves. All we had to do was convert to Islam and we’d have all of our civil rights. You’d go from the equivalent of black to white just like that. Oh, and one other line of fine print. Your entry-level job is to be a slave driver to your own people. What we demonstrate to the world is that human nature is such that if you pose that question to human beings in that way the majority will give you one simple answer, just two letters. F and U.
They had so much trouble recruiting us for liberation they started stealing our children and brainwashing them into becoming those slave drivers, the jannisaries, police goons who terrorized their own people. But they weren’t lynching us. They were impaling us. That’s who the Bosniaks come from. They stayed blonde and blue eyed since nobody was raping them.
Later on, as the Aryan Supremacy thing hit the Ustasha marked us for extermination as racial undesirables since we were just a bunch of mongrels at that point, and were those abnormal people who chose to be slaves instead of regular people like those Bosniaks who they approved of.
What would you choose to be?
What did I choose? Was I true to form, or what?
Maybe sometime I’ll tell you about the Ghetto Thugs on Welfare who kept the Middle East from colonizing Europe. (Also referred to as Lazy Oversexed Gangsters.) Or I can tell you about how liberal those Turks were with those boys from the Sudan.
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@UM & Legion,
Abagond has already brought up how he has encountered the association with Genghis khan and racism and genocide. Mine is also largely anecdotal also, and includes, but certainly is not limited to traffic on this blog. I have encountered such stuff all my life since my early childhood.
I think there may be a couple reasons why we see this issue so differently:
1. The meaning of what Abagond said in the first place
“In my experience, White Americans ASSUME he (Genghis Khan) was racist and then use that to normalize their own racism. ”
I see it more as something that whites do to normalize their own racism rather than whether some historical figure was actually racist or not. Besides, as we mentioned on other threads, it is difficult to interpret, as ethnocentrism was more common than racism per se before 1400. But the fact is that whites do in fact use this and that (including alleged ethnocentrism of historical figures) to justify or normalize their modern day racist attitudes and beliefs.
2. Asian Atrocities do not have to be specifically racist in nature for whites to use such events to normalize or justify their own racism.
A good example would be the atrocities under Mao. It is difficult to argue that the democides that occurred during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution were due to specific racist or ethnocentric policies under Mao.
However, it is not at all beyond many white people I have encountered to use such events to normalize their own racism or put the racism of whites “into perspective”. For example, whites will use Asian atrocities, including the events under Mao’s leadership to demonstrate that East Asians are an evil race; they even massacre their own people and let them starve. They will use this to
– dehumanize Asians so that they can be killed in war or used for target practice. The image of a g00k is that of pure evil
– justify why Asians should not marry whites, or be allowed to form families on their own
– why Asians should not be allowed to become citizens
– explain why racist immigration laws and internment camps are vital to the national security
– racially profile people as traitors or spies or national security threats
– put the domestic American atrocities “into perspective”.
e.g., at least 325,000 Chinese entered the USA between 1848 and 1882. By 1910 there were barely 50,000 left. Sure, many of them went back to China, or perhaps to other countries, but the majority did not leave the USA. What happened to them? The disappearance of a couple hundred thousand Chinese in a few decades is made to seem insignificant when compared to atrocities that affected tens of millions.
Yet, the genocide of the Native American population involved tens of millions.
No one denies that the Nanjing massacre that involved 300,000 deaths was an atrocity, but US history has denied its ethnic cleansing of a few hundred thousand Chinese was an atrocity.
This is all how both non-racist events and events that were clearly racist are both used by whites to normalize their own racism.
3. Anecdotal evidence will be different among individuals and groups
My anecdotal evidence spans way beyond the scope of this blog.
I recognize that I have an experience that is different from others. Not everyone has paternal grandparents and Aunts/Uncles from China and maternal grandparents who identified as white in Jim Crow Alabama.
But every time I saw my maternal grandmother growing up, she never hesitated to bring out the Asian atrocity arguments (they even kill and massacre their own people) to lecture about how Asians are inherently evil, and should be excluded from immigration and naturalization, how America is justified in wiping out as many as they can, why they cannot marry whites, and since they are perpetual heathens, are condemned to hell.
Yet, she saw no problem with keeping blacks segregated from whites, keeping them from voting, enjoying basic civil rights or from most professions, denying them loans or credit, sending them to inferior schools (she herself was a former schoolteacher in a white segregated school), removing Native Americans from their homelands, etc. She did not acknowledge the role that whites had in turning Birmingham into “Bombingham”.
(Later on, I learned that my maternal grandmother likely had skeletons in her closet. When I saw a 19th century photograph of HER maternal grandmother, she did not look white to me at all. But then she was “Black Dutch”. When I asked her if her grandparents were all white, she had the look of dread on her face and told me that as far as she knew, they were white. )
She is not the only one – other relatives teachers, neighbors, employers and coworkers — all such manner of people I encountered. Vietnam Vets did not hesitate to state that they fought in Asia specifically so that “YOU PEOPLE” would not come “HERE”. Obviously many commenters and readers of this blog may never come within earshot of such stuff.
You will hear Americans today state emphatically that they have never heard the dehumanizing rhetoric (including the alleged racism or ethnocentrism of contemporary or historical figures) used to haze, even kill Asian Americans. But too bad we cannot ask Danny Chen or Harry Lew (nephew of Congresswoman Judy Chu) that question.
But we don’t have to rely just on anecdotal evidence.
Former commenter B.R. stated that he NEVER heard any Vietnam Vet state that any racist dehumanizing opinion about Asians, or how they were dehumanized Asians so that they could easily be killed. But ask the tens of thousands of Asian Americans sent there. One of the tenets of the formation of Yi Wor Kuen and other activist Asian American groups in the 1960s-70s was the dehumanization they faced by serving in the military. Besides this was the idea that the USA had spent decades trying to cleanse itself of its Asian population, and sent Japanese Americans to internment camps, but now wanted Asian Americans to be sent to Asia to kill Asians to protect America’s National security while they were incessantly hazed by fellow officers and soldiers as the “enemy”. Their anecdotal evidence will differ markedly from B.R.’s friends, but we DO have proof of that.
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@Linda Keres Carter
All we had to do was convert to Islam and we’d have all of our civil rights. You’d go from the equivalent of black to white just like that. Oh, and one other line of fine print. Your entry-level job is to be a slave driver to your own people.
So THATS how Islam colonized Eastern World. I was just saying a lot of the same things about Catholicism, lmao.
Heck, put a hijab on me and I’d pass for one of them. Those looks come from a single line of judicial code: “The testimony of a Serb against a Turk is inadmissible in court.”
Maybe its because a lot of the commentators are men but I would argue that Genghis Khans mass rapes were gencocides. If you want to ethnically cleanse a group of people you can kill them and/or replace their descendants with your own. That’s why those English Nobles in Scotland and Ireland got to have sex with the bride on the first night. Rape is probably the oldest form of ethnic cleansing and erasure. Its a lot like whitening theory in Latin America or rape of Black Women during slavery. The laws prohibiting misegenation mostly applied to marriage not to sex. Especially if the sex was male on female.
They had so much trouble recruiting us for liberation they started stealing our children and brainwashing them into becoming those slave drivers, the jannisaries, police goons who terrorized their own people. But they weren’t lynching us. They were impaling us. That’s who the Bosniaks come from. They stayed blonde and blue eyed since nobody was raping them.
Or I can tell you about how liberal those Turks were with those boys from the Sudan.
I read Arabian Nights in seventh grade right when I was on the bad side of puberty and I had a hard time understanding why there was so much anal sex in it because I wasn’t really aware what homosexuality was exactly…
Islam and Christianity are really two sides of the same coin right down to the sexual and physical abuse of Armenian, Greek, and Sudanese boys and girls sent to be “tributes” to the Ottoman Empire.
And Lord Byron basically retired to Turkey to keep loving teenage boys in peace. He loved him some Greek Boy booty. He would’ve gotten hanged for it in his native England at the time(and he loved the military, that’s why he died fighting against the Ottoman Empire.)
I said on the other thread how tyrannical governments espouse misogyny because the easiest way to indoctrinate the young is to take them away from there parents, isolate them, and then systematically abuse them to break their psyches down so you can brainwash them.
…. By the way, your comments are interesting and very funny. 🙂
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@Linda Keres Carter
Its a lot similar to how primates wage war. The belligerent up and coming primates male will kill the alpha male primate and then kill his progeny, if he has any.
And then the newly installed Alpha Primate will immediately start raping all the female primates
That’s how primates make war on each other and from an evolutionary standpoint it makes a certain amount of brutal sense. There’s a documentary on youtube that shows it. And it shows the primate mother mourning the baby she lost while she’s getting raped by the new primate who’s taken over the tribe.
….We’re not so different from our monkey cousins as we’d like to believe we are.
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@Linda Keres Carter
I even heard one of my guy friends say something so absurdly gross, but he’s like that, it made all of us laugh out loud.
He said, “I like to do it when the girl is on the rag, because when I see blood on my b..ch splitter, I feel like I’ve conquered something.”
He didn’t mean it seriously, it was just a callback to and earlier discussion we had on phallic symbols and how most
weapons( spearheads, arrowheads, swordpoints) look like d.cks. And whether or not that that was male sexual vanity because from anatomical standpoint I thought the best blades for fighting and that did the most damage were actually curved and not pointed. It makes sense for long range weapons like spears and arrows to be pointed but if you wanted to cut something the sharpest blades are usually curved, not strait.That’s why hatchets are broad and flat. Halbreds have decidedly curved blades. And Schimitars.
Except for male sexual vanity I can’t really see the advantage in close range combat of swords being long and strait and pointed. Knives maybe but not swords. Knives can be thrown like arrows. Piercing only works for long or very close range attacks and defenses.
And rapes were always called “conquests” in antiquity too. The conquistadors raped a lot of women. So did the Japanese in Manchuria and Korea.
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@UM
What do you call the Han policy towards Uighurs, Tibetans & other ethnic minorities after Mao & the CCP seized power?
I call it ethnic cleansing.
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@Linda Keres Carter
My bad It wasn’t Arabian Nights, it was some poem by this other English writer who went to Turkey for that expressed reason. And it wasn’t Lord Byron but I can’t remember who it was.
I think I get Arabian Nights confused with all the stories and actual accounts of the Arab World that I read that confused me. Particularly the whole tribute boys thing and sending the children of Nobles to the Sultan to basically be held as hostages. Where it was openly known that many of them were sexually abused. Even the Romanian King Vlad( The Impaler) Dracul’s brother, was a tribute boy who expressed a preference for men later in life. I think Vlad the Impaler actually killed his brother too.
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@Kiwi
Black slaves who converted to Christianity were still not even seen as fully human.
They were slaves. the definition of which is :
noun historical
1.a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
Enslaved black people were property so that is why they weren’t “seen as fully human” and conversion wasn’t a choice for them. It was very much forced because the only other alternative was punishment or death. Same as our speaking English instead our own African Languages and having European or Christian Names. We made some of those customs that were forced on us into our own unique traditions especially Gospel Music, by practicing those customs in our own style and inimitable manner and so many people copied us that it’s easy for people to forget that we were in bondage at the time.
You’re confusing exhibiting agencywith having free will. A lot of people do that with Black Americans.
And that comparison doesn’t really apply to the Serbs under Mongol Rule.
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All we had to do was convert to Islam and we’d have all of our civil rights.
I think it’s interesting how people in general confuse civil rights with human rights. Civic rights come with civic duty one of which is paying taxes. Therefore if I as a Black American Citizen pay taxes to the state and local authorities, I should be able to utilize the services they provide. One of which is protection and services such as taking reports about crimes. If they choose not to protect me or my property it follows I that should not have to pay them. But if I do not pay taxes, I risk going to Federal Prison.That same Federal Institution that does not protect my human right to not to be killed by the police who are supposed to be protecting me.
Human rights are something everyone is born with. The right to live freely for instance. To not be forced to do what you do not want to do. Definitions of what force is tend to vary from person to person but without getting into physics I’m going to go with this definition:
______________________________________________________________
Force. noun
: physical strength, power, or effect
: power or violence used on a person or thing
: strength or power that is not physical
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Being forcibly deprived of my human rights in order to be coerced into making a certain decision would qualify as force and inhuman treatment. If certain entities with more power than me, or who have forcibly taken my power away, use that power to make me think and believe differently than I wish to that is Human Rights Abuse. Alhough most humans need civic rights, like to vote and have government protection to live, the two are not the same thing. But it follows that you cannot have one without the other so I understand why people get them confused.
I’m not sure what the case was in Serbia anyway either. But I notice how governments do that, play weird rhetorical games when words have simple definitions based on logic and the only way to get around those definitions is by somehow tricking people into being too afraid to question your reasoning.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I meant to say Human rights come from being a member of humanity itself.
Civil Rights come from being a member of a country.
If you’re a member of a country you should have both. I don’t know anyone who is born somewhere on this earth that isn’t counted as members of some nation somewhere on this earth. I don’t think No Man’s Land exists and if it does then it’s the best kept secret because some powerful nation hasn’t claimed it yet.
It shouldn’t matter what your personal beliefs are, but many rulers and people do this with minorities: they want our money, but they don’t want us, so they try to have it both ways and make “conditions” that violate our civil and human rights, but everyone who is not us agrees to those conditions, or we agree to those conditions in order to not be killed or enslaved and so they seem to be fair when they are not fair at all, not even in principle and definitely not in practice.
So many businesses do this. They like taking my money in a disrespectful manner…..as if me paying them,to provide a service or a good, is doing me some kind of a favor and not …the whole reason they exist in the first place(?). I don’t know if a black dollar spends less quickly than a white one does, I just know I pay the same amount but I somehow always get less, or nothing in many cases. Same thing with my tax money that is taken from my earnings before I ever see a dime of it. Because I’m a citizen of the United States. Or so they like to tell me.
Because people are a.sholes. And not very logical or reasonable about it.
But I know it’s not logical to tell people, you’re a member of our nation, whether you want to be or not, but you have to agree to certain conditions in order to have rights you should already have automatically.
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Even in the case of England, Oliver Cromwell invited the Jews back, after Edward I expelled them from Great Britain, because Cromwell wanted financial backing for his fledgling republic, and as long as it didn’t come from Dirty Catholics he didn’t mind the icky Jewishness of the Jews. After all, gold is gold(unless it comes from Catholics).
Besides Cromwell hoped to convert the Jews to Christianity in time so even if it was Jewish Gold it was still Gold and they wouldn’t be Jews for very long.
Many European Nations played this game with Jews and Muslims. The whole ” We Really Want Your Money but We Don’t Want You to Be Different”game. When the only reason they had any money to collect from those people at all was because of their differences.
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Usually conversion or assimilation is a game you can never win anyway because the dominant or ruling culture constantly keeps moving the goal post because they never want to give whatever they promised.
At least in the case of African Americans that’s what’s happening to us. We speak English. We’re Christians. More christian than white people honestly, because we have more need of salvation than they do. We obey the laws(that work against us in most cases). We go to school. We work. We’re American. But it’s never enough as long as we’re black. There will always be some reason or another to deny us what we’ve fought for and should and is ours by rights. And as long as we continue to accept that, it will keep happening.
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“If all you had to do was change your religion in order to be seen as an equal, then that’s not racism. Black slaves who converted to Christianity were still not even seen as fully human.”
What I hear is you dismissing me. This was an evil system that tormented us for centuries that we’re still not anywhere near over. Have you heard something in what I’ve said that dismisses American racism? Or am I trying to let you know how intimately I relate to it?
I am not here to assert my supremacy. I’m here to assert that I am a peer. I need that. I need to be validated that way. Really bad. That’s what I want.
What we went through was a different kind of torment. Living every day with the torment of being coerced and tempted TO pass. It’s another kind of hell. In order to become a supposed human in your master’s eyes you have to become a monster in your own eyes. It’s all very carefully rigged. No matter what you choose you are controlled by people who play you in whatever cruel way they want to.
It was peonage. Jim Crow was peonage. I’m sure you don’t want to argue that Jim Crow was not a form of slavery. I’m sure, if you thought about it clearly, you would sympathize with people who had to live under a Jim Crow-style peonage for 530 years. It was so similar. And we are so similar.
We lived under a racism (generic usage) that was defined around religion. Because it was defined around race here, religion could be USED. Slaves could convert to their masters’ religion and the next thing those masters knew they were bombarded with an army of saints who outdid them in their own definition of humanity. One of my favorite feats in the world. The origins of Non Violent Resistance. An instinct that percolated through a whole population.
If we’d been able to do that, we’d still be alive.
And I wouldn’t be sitting here a genocided ghost nobody sees, who keeps getting taken for the kind of people who exterminated us. That’s a very low blow, and I have to take it all the time.
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@Kiwi
To add to my point, while it was unacceptable for Muslims to enslave free Muslims, enslaving free black Christians in the U.S. was the norm among white Christians.
I’m pretty sure most enslaved Africans weren’t Christian. Most of them were from Sub Saharan Africa people like the Hausa Fulani, were actually Muslims before they were enslaved by Europeans that’s beside the point.
My point was that slavery under any circumstances isn’t normal or justifiable. At least not for human beings. Maybe for animals it kind of is but it’s mutually beneficial relationship. Enslaving someone for any reason and placing them in a dehumanizing condition is violating their human and their civic rights. And also being a selfish d.ck, because no one would want to be enslaved. Even submissive people who like being forced to do things don’t live like that all the time. And submissive people actually control the relationship by what they refuse to do.
But I think all discrimination sucks. I don’t think religious discrimination is any better or worse than racial discrimination. One imprisons the mind the other imprisons the body.
Is it really that easy to change either one, even on condition of death or torture and still be human? Still be yourself?
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@ Kiwi
I agree. Well said.
@ AlitaRegina
Racism is the very reason none of that stuff ever works. That is how you know they are being racist.
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@ Kiwi
Being different, being individuals, and not a mindless member of herd (even though animals have personalities too but we won’t get into that), is what makes us human beings wouldn’t you agree?
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
But you guys do get that different ethnicities in Europe, like the Jews, who were in appearance bore a resemblance to whatever nationality of the country they lived in, minus a few things like nose shape and hair texture, viewed at that time and arguably today as a different “race”. Right?
That’s why to Linda it was racism. Because even many of the Jews and Muslims that converted to whatever Christian Religion still got burned at the stake during the Inquisition, and still got gassed in the Holocaust.
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@Abagond and Kiwi
Even if you chose to convert, you’ll be a different class or race of whatever religion you convert to. That’s where different races come from, hence the racism. If it’s not your religion or ethnicism, it’s your appearance. That’s what happened with the lower class English People and the Scottish and the Irish. Even though they were technically all Caucasian.
The Black and Tans still killed and raped and enslaved the Irish. And all of those people were technically Christian and they were White. H.ll everyone enslaved the Irish. Because they lived on Emerald Isle, full of arable land and seafaring people saw them as a convient supply stop(Let’s go to Ireland and pick up some beer and pretty red haired women, that’s what the Little Mermaid was in Danish Mythology it was a kidnapped Irish slave girl.) and the British Ireland is their bread and pork basket, after the French cut them off when they lost the 100 Years War.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
None of that stuff was about religion or appearance. Those were just convenient excuses people made to take things that didn’t belong to them: land, resources, money, women.
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I give the Vikings credit where credit is due. At least they admitted what they were. They never claimed to rape and pillage for a cause or for god or for some other unwarranted sense of superiority reason.
They were bandits and if they could take something, that’s what they did. It was in the name.
The word “Viking” means sea roving bandit or pirate.
Maybe that’s why they never practiced settler colonialism. Sure Denmark is a small resource poor country but at least they went back to it whenever they got done robbing everyone else. Give people a break and time to rebuild or replace whatever the Vikings had stolen or destroyed.
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Although… It’d be pretty interesting if they did try to force people to be Vikings:
______________________________________________________________
“You’re going be Viking now.”
“Really so what is a Viking?”
“Well we worship the God of Thunder. And we like to get drunk and have mass orgies. We also like to eat hallucinogenic mushrooms. And we like the sea. And boats and we to rape and steal from people. It’s pretty awesome. And we love singing. Sailing gets pretty boring so, we sing songs to keep from getting lonely. Practice is every morning.”
“..This really doesn’t sound like a culture. It sounds more like a never ending debauched drunken rave.”
“Yes. It’s awesome isn’t it? Here eat these Mushrooms and take this spear. When you’re really high we’ll put you in battle and you can stack new born babies on it.”
______________________________________________________________
But I think that would have been too labor intensive for them.
They kind of had ADHD as a culture. Plus I think everyone they kidnapped they enslaved. There’s even some strawberry blonde Danish People that get made fun of for being…descended from an enslaved Irish Woman.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
Correction:
Religion and Appearance: Those were just convenient excuses certain people made to take things from other people that they hadn’t asked or paid for and that didn’t belong to them.
Even in the most basic sense, you don’t get something for nothing.
Everything costs something whether you acknowledge what it cost or not. Stealing it doesn’t change the fact. Majorities or powerful Minorities usually just end up charging the people that they robbed for what rightfully belonged to them in the first place.
Even if everyone agrees on it. It’s still bad arithmetic.
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” I was helping Linda Keres Carter distinguish religious discrimination from racism.”
What we’ve been through was slavery and genocide as racial undesirables. Not religious discrimination. I’ve been studying American racism for 54 years. I could never hear enough of the stories, and they always felt like they were happening to me. I didn’t know who I was. I was told I was from the people who were exterminating us.
That’s how I figured it out. By who felt familiar.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
I agree with Kiwi. Based on what you said, the Turks were not being racist. Cruel and unjust, yes, racist, no. The same goes for Genghis Khan, and probably most conquerors.
If the Turks had acted like White Americans, they would have wiped out the Serbs, like what Whites did to Native Americans.
If Turks had acted like White Americans, converting to their religion would not have been enough, just as it has not been enough for Black and Asian Americans.
White Americans want to make what they did and do in history seem like “part of the human condition”, “what everyone does”. They use Genghis Khan and others to that end. They do not want to face up to their sick mindset.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
I respect both of your opinion. I just don’t think that if I was given the choice to convert to “Whiteness”, under the condition of denying my parents blood and disassociating from my community and then actively practicing white racism and oppressing that community in turn, I would agree to change my race.
I think that’s a bit too much to ask of someone just to be able to live as a human being. And even if everyone in my family made the same choice, I think most dominant cultures that force this kind of stuff on people would just move the goalpost and change the basis for exclusion to include something outside my control like my grandparents religion, race, class, ethnicity.
That’s what happened to the Jews and Muslims during the Holocaust and the Inquisition. That’s what actively happens to both in Europe today because ever since all countries started using identification numbers to track census information all someone would have to do to find a reason to exclude, discriminate or target you for persecution is look at your vital statistics and cross reference your personal information with population group identifiers, like your parents year of birth and national origin for example, to determine what your race, class, ethnicity, or religion is. \
That’s why Universities can’t ask, officially anyway, who your grandparents are because that was how a lot of them used to exclude Jewish People for admission or enforce admission quotas on them. Whether they were actively practicing Judaism or were simply unfortunate enough to be children of people who’s parents did.
And there’s an end. Most of the Jews who died during the Holocaust were Germans who had Jewish Ancestry and even if they were somehow excluded from that redefinition of Jewish, if their family members, like their spouses or in laws, weren’t many of them decided to stay in Europe to face whatever was going to happen to them together. Rather than abandon or force their loved ones to abandon their families. That’s how 11 Million of them died.
I agree with Linda obviously but I actually witnessed this kind of racial discrimination by ethnic ancestry of blond haired blue eyed Catholic Germans of Turkish Muslim descent( Turkish people who were invited to Germany to be low wage paid guest workers.) in Europe so that’s where my perspective is coming from on it. Most Germans have dark hair and dark eyes unless they’re Southern or have Nordic Ancestry, so I found that kind of discrimination very weird and saddening.
Because it’s so unnecessary and similar to a lot of the discrimination I deal with on a daily basis.
Until I opened my mouth, a lot of people mistook me for Muslim instead of just Black American, because most Africans in Europe are perceived as coming from a Muslim background so in practice religious discrimination and racial discrimination operated the same way. In principle and practice. Even your driver’s license in the EU is National and when its scanned it shows all the stuff they can use to discriminate against you. Even though it’s illegal, it still happens pretty openly.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
And of course the caveat to this is that even if you decide to convert/ deny and disassociate/oppress and enslave you own people-
someone can simply make a mistake or decide that they don’t like you and then classify you as that targeted minority at an inopportune time and if you don’t have someone to vouch for you, or in some cases even if you do, you’re marching off to the gas chamber or getting burned at the stake.
Or impaled and raped in the case of the Serbs and the Turks.
I personally don’t think conversion is really a valid or humane choice. Anymore than me bleaching my skin, weaving my hair and rhinoplastying my nose is (See Loni Anderson, the light skinned black woman who became White for Burt Reynolds) I still have whatever genetic admixture that made me a different race to begin with so I’ll either have to adopt, conceive and pray if whoever I’m married to doesn’t know, or cosmetically butcher any unfortunate children whose appearance revealed their genetic admixture.
If I can’t do all that myself and suspect neither of you can, I definitely wouldn’t expect Linda or anyone else to.
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I’m genuinely surprised people would think that Genghis Khan was racist. Wasn’t a common trope among early conquerors to mix with the ruling class of the people they conquered? I don’t think you can really describe Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great or any other early conquerors as racist since they didn’t seem to care about “racial purity” like the European imperialists did from the 15th century onward.
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I remember watching a BBC special and it said Genghis Khan was born clutching a blood clot this was a spiritual sign of the the leader he would become. A sign he would be a great warrior.
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Learned that Kubla Khan was the grandson of Genghis Khan.
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“(Later on, I learned that my maternal grandmother likely had skeletons in her closet. When I saw a 19th century photograph of HER maternal grandmother, she did not look white to me at all. But then she was “Black Dutch”. When I asked her if her grandparents were all white, she had the look of dread on her face and told me that as far as she knew, they were white. )”
There we go, some ‘passing’ behavior. They’re the worst. That’s why Imperialists like the Turks who ruled by proxy learned to kidnap, brainwash and sic those singled out for ‘passing’ onto the subjugated population. Or what I’ve noticed: the more you’re like the person you hate, the more you hate them.
Black Dutch could mean Indian blood and/or African blood. Just last month a scholar from a Western, federally-recognized tribe told me that stories of Black Dutch, Black Irish or Blackfoot (as ran in my mom’s side of the family) were really about “just” Black blood (god, what original thinking!!). So I guess I have it from an official source that I have a bit of African blood. Which is ridiculous, we all have 5.5 litres of African blood. Should I change my race on my driver’s license? I have to do it next week.
I’ve got a big old forum full of people I’ve been hearing from for 15 years with those stories and generally we use common sense. What are the physical traits popping up in the family? Do they look NDN or Black? If grandma had thick, straight, blue-black hair that easily grew down to her butt, she ate fried mush for breakfast, fry bread for dinner and sat on the front porch in braids smoking a pipe, stopping your breath she looked so NDN, and when grandpa got mad at her he’d say “Shut up, you old squaw!” then that’s the thing to go with. Later DNA tests have backed that method up for many people.
If your grandmother hated Asians so much my hunch is she was hiding NDN blood. I personally spearheaded the “Methinks He/She Doth Protest Too Much” method of Passing-Reversal Research. It’s been quite productive — a very smoky gun.
I bet you’ve got more than 50% Asian blood, m’dear. If you’re curious, some of the people actively researching on my site, http://saponitown.com, may be of help. Marc, my long-lost cuz, is doing free look-ups. (I just found out from him we’re related to the Coppock brothers, who rode with John Brown. The confederacy blew up an entire train to take out the youngest brother. Way to go, Barclay!)
You may find some interesting family, as there are obviously two sides to these families with passers in them. The ones passing and the ones they scorned who wouldn’t/couldn’t pass, or had to but hated it. The latter can be VERY interesting people. You may find some folks on that side of your family who appreciate you very much, and vice/versa. But don’t delay. My life might have been entirely different if I’d known earlier about my cousin Jim Morley.
Heck, if this turns out to be your pure maternal line you might show an MtDNA mother from Asia. And, of course, you can never have one Indian ancestor. If you have one, you have many thousands. And they’re very noisy. And full of mischief. In a good way.
Happy hunting!
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“I personally don’t think conversion is really a valid or humane choice. Anymore than me bleaching my skin, weaving my hair and rhinoplastying my nose is . . . I still have whatever genetic admixture that made me a different race to begin with so I’ll either have to adopt, conceive and pray if whoever I’m married to doesn’t know, or cosmetically butcher any unfortunate children whose appearance revealed their genetic admixture.
If I can’t do all that myself and suspect neither of you can, I definitely wouldn’t expect Linda or anyone else to.”
What a breadth of mind you have! The two situations are analogous, but people in this country have such a hard time seeing it. They have so much distress about not being to ‘pass’ they don’t realize it’s a horrifying business they would be agonized to face. And all the disunity, betrayals and in-fighting people complain about here are nothing compared to what it would be like if a culture of ‘passing’ had been enforced on them. Sheer blood and guts is what all that dividing and conquering leads to. No, the Turks didn’t butcher us into extinction, but between them and the Austrians, the set of a.shole Imperialists on the other side of that no-man’s-land we inhabited, they absolutely set into motion the forces that created that reality, twisting our own cousins into the monsters they became.
I have a theory. People like us, who’ve been through all this, the enslaved, exploited people of the Earth, are special. In all our trials we develop certain instincts unique to the challenges we face, that give us special strengths. Each population has its own special gifts as a result, and they are always complementary. And when the day come that we all join forces we will save the world.
That’s my cosmology. I came to it on my own, only to learn that Serbian Orthodoxy began that belief system on the field of Kosovo in 1389 when we faced every army from India to North Africa and everything in between, and lost our freedom. That’s the meaning of the battle of Kosovo and why we’ll never give up on it, even if the US has dropped dirty bombs on it, making it radioactive for the next million years.
There’s a photo online somewhere of a hobo from there with a placard that reads “Thanks to the US, my balls now glow in the dark.”
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______________________________________________________________
They have so much distress about not being to ‘pass’ they don’t realize it’s a horrifying business they would be agonized to face.
______________________________________________________________
My guess is many “visible” minorities have this kind of ignorance and myopia about being an “invisible” minority. Because they see all the surface privileges and none of the internal oppression. Even if you could suddenly become white somehow you’re friends and family and the community that made your whole heritage doesn’t suddenly just disappear. You still have loyalties and associations and going from oppressed to oppressor has certain conditions that would make the change very unappealing for most people. Like it’s not an upgrade but I seriously wonder about people who act as if it is.
Plus I don’t think they don’t read many biographies of people who pass I guess:
Loni Anderson was light skinned black woman who met Burt Reynolds in brothel somewhere in the South. And he basically made her into a white woman so he could take her out in public and marry her. But the marriage was so miserable for so many reasons. Like anyone who really loves you would ever make you do something like that. But to her it was like a fairy tale that turned into a nightmare. All those kind of male female Pygmalion relationships tend to be.
Plus you’re talking to two guys and men tend to be very rigid in their reasoning. All those women who had those horrible Hollywood ethnic makeovers had miserable lives but I doubt most men would pay attention while listening to any woman, especially a beautiful one, talk about her struggles. They’d be too busy looking at her and I doubt most men understand how having a certain privileged appearance can be a double edged sword because they’re not as judged on appearance as women are. So they like to think looking a certain socially acceptable way makes all your problems magically go away.
______________________________________________________________
twisting our own cousins into the monsters they became.
______________________________________________________________
Nobody does you like family does you. I was just saying on the other thread that J Edgar Hoover was rumored to be a mulatto. Fitz Haber, A Jewish Chemist began the chemical warfare that led to the Holocaust. And the Obama Administration is increasingly fascist but most people are so hung up on his mixed race ancestry they refuse to see it for what it is. When if anyone white did half the things he did people would be marching on Washington.
______________________________________________________________
I have a theory. People like us, who’ve been through all this, the enslaved, exploited people of the Earth, are special. In all our trials we develop certain instincts unique to the challenges we face, that give us special strengths. Each population has its own special gifts as a result, and they are always complementary. And when the day come that we all join forces we will save the world.
That’s my cosmology. I came to it on my own, only to learn that Serbian Orthodoxy began that belief system on the field of Kosovo in 1389 when we faced every army from India to North Africa and everything in between, and lost our freedom. That’s the meaning of the battle of Kosovo and why we’ll never give up on it, even if the US has dropped dirty bombs on it, making it radioactive for the next million years.
______________________________________________________________
If there’s a world left to be saved. The way things are going now I honestly wonder.
I always get along well with people who have pride in their cultures. Because they understand the meaning of endurance.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
Plus I always say that whatever beats you down and oppresses you always makes you capable. Struggle develops character. Unless people have some kind of self loathing I don’t get why they would ever want to go from being a member of the oppressed to a member of the oppressor class.
But that’s just me.
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@Linda Keres Carter
Slightly off topic: I think Loni and Burt Reynolds adopted all of their kids. And he was very abusive to her. So many oppressive people who become friends or lovers to the oppressed are, that’s why its not an upgrade. You just attract people who exploit you being in such a vulnerable position. It’s worse people just don’t acknowledge it being worse because its not as visible.
Even with white skin and blond hair she still looks black to me.
On Topic:
There’s always been black people who could pass as white. I’m not one of them but my grandmother and many of my aunts are and even being brown with a standard Midwestern American Accent who kind of passes socially, I really don’t get how women like Loni Anderson did things like that. Black People from Minnesota like Prince and Travis McCoy tend to be really high yellow. They’re like a lot of light skinned Dominicans but they actually say they’re black unlike many Light Skinned Black Hispanics.
Even passing socially just means a lot of people feel more comfortable being openly racist around me because for some reason they think I’ll be okay with it.
I walked off of work this week because of it. NYC Hispanics in particular irk me with it because they constantly smile in your face and then say racist things or act racist. But I guess if I can just ignore being black at those moments like they want me to, because they really like me and Im one of the “good” ones instead of being anti racist I should just coast by on my racial ambiguity privileges and I shouldn’t complain or voice an opinion that might jeopardize that and everything will be alright.
Conversion is SO not an option for me. I don’t think going from being a rape victim to a rapist or rape apologist is for anyone.
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“Even if you could suddenly become white somehow you’re friends and family and the community that made your whole heritage doesn’t suddenly just disappear.”
I woke up this morning thinking about an analogy to what my life has felt like. Assuming you’re Black, your Fairy Godmother sprinkles some fairy dust on you and you wake up tomorrow morning White. Suddenly all that oppression has vanished, and the world supposedly is now your oyster. Except you still care about the same kind of people you’ve always cared about, but they don’t recognize you anymore, and think you’re their enemy. You’re still fundamentally loyal to the same kinds of things, but you’re constantly being railroaded into situations that would betray that loyalty, or being slammed because you refused to be railroaded. And then slammed by the betrayed people because they mistake you for a betrayer.
You can be anything you want now.
Except yourself.
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@Kiwi
______________________________________________________________
Such racial thinking was common in Europe when the threat of the Ottoman Empire militarily taking over the West was real. The problem with this thinking is that most Muslims are not Turks.
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Such thinking is common in Europe today. Even Western Europe. I think it’s because Black and Brown Muslims are usually from places like Somalia and Afghanistan which are considered dysfunctional former colonies at best, puppets of western Imperialism at it’s most neutral(Pakistan,India,Iran,Saudi Arabia) and failed states at worst.
Turkey though in terms of government and economic stability and power is a legitimate threat to many of them. Especially people who live CLOSEST to them. Like of the very economically unstable Greece What you see as Islamophobia is genuine fear of Imperialist and possible slavery because I don’t think you realize that slavery is still VERY much practiced in Islam. Most of the slavery still practiced in Africa TODAY, RIGHT NOW, AS WE SPEAK is light skinned Arabs and Indians enslaving dark skinned Black Africans and poorer Arab people, like Yemenis.
I know two people, actual living human beings who were enslaved by Muslims. One is seventeen. He escaped and became a refugee but his mother is still enslaved in Mauritania. They call slaves “nephews”, “nieces”, “cousins”. But they’re slaves. They’re purchased or taken. Sometimes they’re distant relatives but usually no. She and him wore a kind of ankle bracelet that identified their status. She thinks being a slave is her God given duty.That’s actually how a lot Black Africans look at it today. I don’t get it either but that’s how they look at it.
This is why the Western Media honestly p.sses me off about how they present that whole Islamophobia issue. Being enslaved by Turkey, at least for U.K, Netherlands, and most of Western Europe and America isn’t in their history or a legitimate treat they have to be scared of like it is for the Greece and people from the Bulkans So they dismiss a lot of what I would classify as anti imperialism as Islamophobia when…. DUDE the Muslims did and DO horrible things to people. So do the Catholics, I am one and I don’t particularly care for either religion’s thinly veiled child pimping operations. I know Muslim Women from Afghanistan who say this, I know Sudanese Africans who say this, while still practicing the religion because they want to reform it and get rid of the enslavement and marital rape and child bride and dancing boy selling.
And the West excuses it all these things “culture”, mostly for monetary reasons because they want the Middle East’s oil. They don’t give a f.ck about Eastern Europe’s past history with them. They just want Muslim Money. Even if that money comes from kidnapping, slavery, selling drugs and arms. BUT when light skinned Muslims, like Iranians, are against Gay Marriage, it’s culture. But it’s Homophobia when Black Africans, including Nobel Prize winner Ellen Johnson Sirleaf are. (And I notice a lot of Westerners don’t know how to deal with her in interviews.)
If Mexico practiced settler colonialism, slavery, and had a history of enslaving Americans and selling American Children into forced child prostitution and gang raping women, and ambushing cities like Houston for slave raids, and forcing everyone to convert to Roman Catholicism and then making THEM gang rape other Americans , sell other Americans children into prostitution like Turkey has you would get where Linda’s coming from I think. That’s how a lot of Greek people I met saw it. And many Turkish Men would kidnap Greek boys and sell them into forced prostitution or rape them.
You’re making the same mistake a lot of Americans make Kiwi. Europeans have LONG memories when it comes to THEIR history. They have to. They live in such complicated interdependencies with one another. The Ottoman Empire was just in these people’s Grandparent’s generation. You cannot seriously expect them to just dismiss it like you are. Americans have never had their cities bombed( i’m assuming you’re American, pardon me if I’m wrong) in their or anyone they know, living memory. Or had to face the sexual threat of an advancing army of people who had just a decade ago been their neighbors, like the Serbians and Bosnians did.
Danish and Norwegian people still sing Norse Sagas in bars when they get drunk. Europeans don’t brush history off like most Americans do because their countries are much older than ours, which why I think you and Abagond and you don’t really get what Linda is saying.
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@Kiwi and Abagond
You guys are killing me right now,lol.
You can’t see how blinded you are by American Privilege and you’re seriously arguing with someone who actually knows people who have experienced this history. She actually knows people who have died over this. Probably in living memory.
I mean continue as you are but you both know you’re bothdoing the internet commentator version of “Homies Over Hoes” but it’s “Genghis Khan Over Hoes”
I’m just saying PAUSE. That’s all I’m saying.
Think about it.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi
They don’t give a f.ck about Eastern Europe’s past history with them. They just want Muslim Money. Even if that money comes from kidnapping, slavery, selling drugs and arms.
I just realized after I wrote that, that yes, the U.S. Government does and profits from all of those things, domestically and abroad so that’s why the U.S., Denmark, and the U.K. are all hypocritical and dismissive about it.
But as men of color you both really shouldn’t be.
And I know you’re probably thinking I’m over equating Islam and the Ottoman Empire with Turkey but I honestly feel it’s no more over equating than saying Islam-Ottoman-Muslim Imperialism than Christianity-Any White/Western Country-Christian Imperialism. It’s two sides of the same coin. I and most Americans just haven’t lived with the Islamic- Muslim imperialism but it’s just as bad as the Christian Imperialism and enslavement and in Islam the same form of it still goes on. Most Christian countries changed and restricted their slavery to certain sectors of society, like prisons.
You’re still born into slavery TODAY/RIGHT NOW in many parts of Indonesia, Yemen, Sudan, and Afghanistan if you come from a certain background. It doesn’t matter if you’re a Muslim. Yemeni’s and Sudanese people are Muslim and as far as Linda was talking about selling out you’re own people that’s what a lot of the Black Africans and Yemenis and Afghanis do.
I was best friends with a Sudanese girl who’s father basically beat that “I’m a slave to lighter skinned people” mindset into her with the explicit purpose of selling his daughters into prostitution- I mean marriage- back in Africa. And she basically just ran away from him to be a freelance…for lack of a better term bottom b.tch but for White or Light Skinned Men and people instead of whatever presumably Black African Husband and Family she would’ve been forcibly married into(that might’ve still happened anyway). She still wants to be a slave but to a richer master. And she’s from Toronto. She’s a first generation Canadian and her father’s Muslim upbringing made her and her sister into prostitutes, they call it sugaring, but it’s prostitution. They just get paid in gifts instead cash on a nightstand by the hour. And that’s when they even got paid to give up the goods. She was forever living with some guy but constantly needing to borrow from me. Even when the sex she liked best was submissive bondage sex and getting whipped and beaten. I’m dead serious.
That is Islam, especially for Black People. We’re a SLAVE race to them. And it was Islam. This girl grew up staying the house all the time, and watching Bollywood and Disney Movies, (she still does), and having her father pick which books she read and spending maybe ten minutes a day on the internet. That’s what comes of that. It wasn’t covert racist Canadian culture, because she was, embarrassingly at times, barely exposed to that it was Islam. All the progressive parts of Islam do not get taught and applied to Black People from what I’ve seen. Because of Race. It’s even in the Koran. We’re still slaves to them and many of the one’s I’ve met IRL who are strict adherers treat me like a servant. That’s why I don’t f.ck with them like that. I noticed the only black people who do are first generation Africans or Men.
That’s why I’m definitely on Linda’s side on this one. It’s not her that’s racist, it’s Islam. Muslims just do a very good job of hiding their racism in their religion so it looks fair and inclusive to outsiders, and they present it that way, EVEN the Black Muslims. Bu you need to understand: THEY ENJOY BEING TREATED LIKE INFERIORS AND SERVANTS. That is their “faith”. Islam means “submission” but look at the color of people who do the most submitting. And it took me a long time to realize my ex best friend had that slave mindset. I could not accept that about her. I thought she was just traumatized and ignorant.
I kept making excuses or blaming other people for taking advantage of her and internalized racism until I realized she enjoyed being treated like an inferior. I had to look at her crying and begging to stay with yet another White/East Indian Pimp Boyfriend who gave her black eyes( and her skin is extremely dark and they were still THAT visible) after she had lied to me about it happening before I finally accepted what I really always knew and just didn’t want to believe.
Harriet Tubman freed slaves but her own husband didn’t want to escape with her and she even said, ” I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if I knew they were slaves.
Islam enslaves people. That guy from Mauritania said his own mother didn’t even want leave with him when she had the chance.
Unless you want to teach your daughters to be dumb baby making whores,( she smart but she just didn’t think) and your sons to be violent abusive criminals, Islam is MORE racist than Christianity is.
At least in theory, not necessarily in practice, Christianity freed black people from slavery.
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Correction:
” I freed a thousand slaves. I could have freed a thousand more if they knew they were slaves.”
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@ Kiwi and Abagond
It’s okay to like problematic people. Just admit that they’re problematic to certain people. And racist.
That’s the only reason I stopped being friends with that girl. I stopped letting her play the victim and she got upset with me, but weirdly she was not upset with getting a black eye and $40.00 after giving fellatio from her white “boyfriend”.
That’s what Islam taught her to do, submit to white people. Keep in mind some brown and light skinned middle eastern people consider themselves White. I don’t get it either and it’s definitely wishful thinking. But they consider themselves white in relation to Black and some Asian people. So from that standpoint their Imperialism was just as racist as Christian Imperialism. And no one but me knows this about her or those other people I mentioned and it’s anecdotal but it’s definitely real.
Islam is racist to me. I will never see it as benevolently as some Westerners seem to want to. Not after living with people who practiced it the way they did and the slavery is still very common. They even call nannies that come over from Djibouti and the Philippines “slaves” and they take their wages. I really gotta disagree with you guys on this one. And it’s not because I hate Islam, any more than I hate all misogynist religions including Christianity. It’s because of the racism and slavery. It’s never good in any incarnation by any people who’ve practiced it. All things being equal.
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@ Kiwi
“The huge flaw in your Islamophobic posts . . .”
Let me tell you a story about some sharecroppers in the south. Their ‘share’ of what they grow is so small, and they’re so poor they can’t even afford a horse or mule for a wagon, so they have to get up early on Sunday morning and walk a long way to church. It’s a young family with a husband, wife and four small children. The husband tries to take a large basket the woman is carrying. He thinks it’s too heavy for her, but she shoos him away. The road is very dangerous and she wants him to have his hands free and his eyes only on the road.
Sure enough, the Man appears over the ridge on a fine horse. He has a new cat-of-nine-tails with bits of sharp copper on the ends that he hasn’t had a chance to use yet, and he had a stressful week. By custom, and by law, the family get out of the road to let him pass. As he does he begins whipping the young husband, who endures it in a rageful silence, praying that the Man does not start whipping his wife or children, because if he does, it won’t matter to the sharecropper what the law will do to him if he defends them.
Perhaps the man attacking him senses this and withdraws. He laughs and gallops away. And that’s what life has been like for many centuries, because a Serb has no rights a Turk is bound to respect, living in Jim-Crow style slavery in the south of Europe.
And that, you see, is the historic and existential basis for the phobia Serbs have of colonizing IMPERIALISTS.
They live at the juncture of three sub-continents and have seen IMPERIALISTS of every stripe for centuries and they frankly detest them all, and trust no one of any color or religion who wields power.
According to the Serbian interpretation of Christianity, there are two kinds of people in the world. There are people who don’t mind being racist towards other people so they can steal the good life for themselves, (those who choose the Earthly Kingdom) and there are people who think those people are gross and wouldn’t be caught dead behaving like them (those who choose the Heavenly Kingdom).
Serbia now considers itself to be colonized by American Imperialists (primarily white Christians). They are well aware that if they do not heed what Governor Kirby, I mean Ambassador Kirby (neo-colonialism is full of euphemisms) says there will be an uptick in police or vigilante attacks on minority Serbs in the other former republics.
Some things never change. Once an exploited, dysfunctional, formerly colonized Third World country, always an exploited dysfunctional formerly colonized Third World country. Did I say formerly? Silly me. Drop that word.
Who will be next? It’s a done deal in the Ukraine. Now who?
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Don’t look so shocked either because according to Islam, and I have it on good authority, penis and vagina intercourse is only for marriage. Because babies come out of the vagina. And marriage is a business contract between a man and woman where one agrees to provide “support” to the other in exchange for children. In all religions and cultures marriage is about babies and unwanted daughters.
Islam though is more flexible with marriage than Christianity or even Judaism is. There are some marriages where a man will visit an establishment. Pay a small dowry, negotiable of course, and then he will be married long enough to spew his baby gravy onto or into his “wife”, and then the marriage just kind of ends and he goes back to his main wife. It’s not even necessary for the marriage to be annulled because both parties agree how long those kinds of “by the hour marriages” will last in advance. Although I do wonder how the pimp- I mean Uncle or Imam in some cases- handles the husband going over his time. I guess he remarries them?
Mouth and Penis, or Butt and Penis intercourse is not sex per se, it’s submission. And that is holy because Islam means submission.
You know who else submits? Slaves. Specifically sex slaves. Many of whom, from what I’ve seen are black. Of either gender. Islam has mastered that whole Poophole Loophole in ways those sinning hypocritical Catholics couldn’t have ever imagined. And it’s only sodomy if people of the same gender do it. That’s why Iran does a lot of same sex reassignment surgery.
Sex for pleasure, if you’re a woman, or a man who likes men(that you don’t own because slaves aren’t people and you can mouth and butt f.ck them all you want, in Islam) and you get caught doing it, is Haram. I don’t even think lesbians matter at all under this kind of reasoning and from what I’ve seen nobody minds them. As long as they don’t move in together and publicly declare their love they get to be pretty open about it from what I’ve seen. Depending on how tolerant their family is. So as long as the men around them think it’s hot, they’re not getting beaten or stoned for it.
So what my friends were doing wasn’t prostitution to them it was “submission” because that’s what they were taught it was, by their religion. Even a girl raised on Bollywood and Disney knows that to get a man to marry you, or to buy you Micheal Kors so that you can go on a date with another richer man in hopes that HE will marry you, you have to “submit” your mouth or butthole to other poorer real estate agent’s penis if he asks you to, so that engineering student you’re really after will marry you when he graduates. Otherwise good luck finding a man who’ll buy you a house and work to support you and your six children so that you don’t have to go to graduate school or use your nursing degree.
I’m actually the one who’s the whore in this equation. Because I have sex for mutual pleasure with guys I’m actually attracted to and who are usually my own age, not my grandfather’s age. I don’t stupidly leave everything else hanging out but cover up my head as if that makes a difference somehow. I work outside for a living and not inside as brood mare. I’ve never even thought of touching a man’s penis for a shopping trip or what amounts to a half a tank of gas money.
That’s what makes me a whore and not those Muslim or in some cases Catholic girls. They’re virgins. Because they don’t use their vaginas, those are for their husbands. Their mouths and butts are for all the men who can, not necessarily will or do, buy them Vera Wang and Loubouttin in the meantime.
And I’m such a whore that when guys are drowning in it, I expect them to sink or tread water, not swim to the butt. If they can’t swim I make them get out of my pool. And I only use my mouth if its a special occasion or they’re Olympic Gold Medalists. Not if they’re some 80 year old white man promising to pay for my graduate school.
Religious Logic. I seriously think all those people who wrote the Koran, The Bible and the Tabernacle had exactly these things in mind and that’s why they wrote them. The only people who don’t get forced or coerced into having some kind of pleasure less uncomfortable painful sex, under these religious rules, are the people whose reproductive organs don’t bear the children. Must be nice for them and suck for everybody else, including them when it comes time to navigate the choppy waters and they crash the ship. But there’s always beating the ship and having multiple ships so that you can go from port to port. So yeah, that submission is so great for different races particularly colored people.
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@ Kiwi
Someone who calls the members of their own ethnicity that convert to Islam “monsters” and as “passing” for a different race is clearly Islamophobic and racist.
If those members decided converting to Islam meant selling other members of their ethnic or racial group and they do overlap in some parts of the world and mean the same thing, into labor and sex slavery to other Muslims, I would agree that that falls under the definition of “monstrous”, and “passing” if they just did it for monetary superficial reasons, like for $40.00 or a Vera Wang 2014 Look 23.
Don’t you think you sound like white people do when they use “The Tone” argument? I’ve heard Muslims and people who practice Islam do and say worse things than “monsters” and “passing”. Much more racist things than what Linda is doing. Like treat Black and brown Asian women like free prostitutes.
If Linda’s racist….there’s plenty of racism to go around. I don’t think nay of us on this board are racist I think we’re just coming from different perspectives. You’re both men so your whole viewpoint on a lot of what she’s talking about like rape is skewed. And she’s actually lived this. You can’t argue with another person’s lived experiences. It’s not something that can be as oversimplified as you both seem to want it to be.
There’s nuances to the issue that you and Abagond and many Americans in general seem to be sidestepping. Like Islam’s current enslavement of other races particularly the races we all belong to respectively.
I’m genuinely afraid of enslavement I don’t know who isn’t. I’ve seen it first hand and not only is it ugly it’s pretty pathetic. Especially the way it’s excused as “culture” or “religion” when to my mind it’s all just pimping and excuses for premature ejaculation and poor bedroom performance.
Islamophobia is real but there’s very valid reasons for it. Especially in the part of the world Linda’s from but you don’t seem to care about those reasons. And I can’t think of why either of you are being so stubborn about this except….“Genghis Khan over Hoes”.
But it’s okay, I get it.
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@ Kiwi
I’m just saying though…“Genghis Khan over Hoes”. That’s what I’m getting from it.
To a lot of the races that Islam enslaved, I think to those people Islam and Muslims are Racist and you’re using the same “Tone Argument” and “No,You’re a Racist” arguments that White people use on Black Americans whenever we talk about racism.
The irony is not lost on me.
I get your argument I just don’t think you do and I don’t agree.
@ Linda
Girl, what did you do to p.ss them off? Just Kidding. Men tend to be very rigid in their reasoning and very Gangstalicious about it. This curious behavior is known as “Thuggin Love” or “Inadvertent Homo-misogyny” and apparently it applies to historical figures whose excesses men are trying to excuse or defend as well as their real life friends. It’s a very fascinating form of Mansplaining I’ve seen all over these Internets.
@Everyone
❤ Hugs<3 How bout them Yankees?
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@Alita
“There’s nuances to the issue that you and Abagond and many Americans in general seem to be sidestepping. Like Islam’s current enslavement of other races particularly the races we all belong to respectively.”—-No more so than America and other western countries sidestep the slavery that goes on right under their nose.
We can all point fingers at Islam slavery simply because they don’t hide it, but to ignore this same fault in countries that are based on Christian principles is reckless. As a side note many Americans are Islamophobic so I highly doubt they would be doing any side stepping on the matter.
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@ Alita
That was not an actual argument. That was you trying to bully us into agreeing with your point of view that racism is whatever you say it is, definitions be damned. It seems you just want to use the word racism as a stick to beat whatever you do not like, not as an idea through which to make sense of the world, much less question your beliefs, like your far from nuanced Islamophobia.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
Comment deleted for moderated language.
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You are being willfully obtuse. There’s no point arguing with you. You aren’t hearing a single word I say. You’ve just identified certain sound bytes you find convenient to exploit and that’s all you’ll keep repeating. It’s doubtful you even read what I just wrote.
We are talking about quite different definitions of the word ‘race.’ There can be no real debate. You use it exclusively to refer only to people of color, as you define people of color. Other people in the world suffering from racism are not of interest. Even when they are from people recently exterminated to the point of extinction as racial undesirables, and they’re REAL touchy about the world thinking they don’t matter. That’s been said about as explicitly as it can be said. That’s a real big wound to be rubbing salt in. But you can’t see the wound, just the degree of pigmentation of the surrounding skin, and oops, we’ve crossed into a tint exceeding that of a paper bag, so “no interest.” Not relevant. Racist even. Racist? See, there’s the objectification line being crossed. Dismiss it, and then shift the blame to it.
This is very alarming. A critical mass has been reached. As I see it, the main reason there have been no truly massive exterminations of Black Americans is essentially because the strategy has always been a push for ‘justice.’ Very, very wise and saintly people, an army of them, went through hell for hundreds of years to create that perception, that value system that equates the word ‘racism’ with the word ‘inhuman’, but that American value is being seriously eroded. A line has been crossed in the last ten years in which, on many levels of Black culture, there is being communicated a palpable call for REVENGE.
The fatal error made by the Serbs, following the incredibly sadistic extermination of three quarters of a million of us (think Emmett Till times 750,000 in a few years time, how those rivers stank) was the backlash that killed thousands of Croats. Among them were many Ustasha, the war criminals responsible for the sadistic slaughter, but once you cross that line and kill some innocent people in revenge, YOU LOSE ALL CREDIBILITY. That’s the only sound byte that the other side is going to hear from then on, and the door to holocaust denial is opened wide and thoroughly exploited.
I see that credibility being lost here and that terrifies me. Beyond what hurts my feelings or makes my own life seem absurd. I feel like I’m watching a mad rush into self destruction and a generation of intellectuals who are indulging themselves in fantasies of vengeance, usually expressed at the expense of the most vulnerable.
What percentage of the Black population is underclass? You think you don’t have enemies in command of the most powerful military/intelligence infrastructure ever amassed on the face of the earth playing with themselves in fantasies of eliminating that percentage? The Black taxpayers outside the ghetto will be spared, and will certainly have learned to finally keep their mouths shut. And all the while, it will look to the world like those ‘animals’ in the ghetto did it to themselves.
Can’t you see how you are being played?
All ‘they’ have to do is increase the incidences of police brutality until there’s a call, from Black people themselves, for No Response Zones. (Already in discussion.) Police aren’t welcome, police aren’t allowed to enter. Or maybe they’re no longer willing to go there. Too dangerous for them. Of course then there can also be no other emergency services. Then there will be chaos. Economic collapse in those zones. Violence. And then, inevitably, the air strikes that take them out. Easy as pie. And you are playing right into their hands. I’m sure there’s half a dozen other scenarios that will efficiently lead to those easy peasy air strikes.
This is a very aggressive majority population. It is capable of that. And if you look at how things have been played elsewhere –and you’ll have to open your eyes to look at people who you see as ‘white’ — you’ll see how easy it is to slip down that slope. (That’s probably a real plus in targeting white populations for enslavement currently. To keep you off guard.) And you’re greasing that slope. That precious, fragile perception of racism as inhuman will evaporate as more and more White Americans get the message loud and clear that Black people are as racist as anybody else, so why should anybody care what happens to them? They don’t want justice. They just want revenge. To hell with them. Once that majority becomes comfortable with that concept, your goose is cooked, fried and fricaseed.
And all this is happening because some think tankers have decided it’s time to get rid of that dead ghetto weight. They’re just pulling all those strings, and you are doing exactly what they want you to do. They just did it to us. They know exactly what they’re doing. They’re very good at it. And I’m trying to call your attention to it, but all you can see is your stereotype of a white woman talking ill about brown people and now you get to get a few licks in.
Maybe I should have my cousin, from the empty Serb ghetto the US took out, that ghost town, comment.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
Revenge? Can you please be specific rather than making insinuations?
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@Sharinalr
No more so than America and other western countries sidestep the slavery that goes on right under their nose.
We can all point fingers at Islam slavery simply because they don’t hide it, but to ignore this same fault in countries that are based on Christian principles is reckless.
I did say America does the same thing. That’s why we’re so closely allied with those countries but turn around an point the finger at them. But Americans were never enslaved by the Ottoman Empire like a lot of Eastern Europe and Northern Africa was and is still. And we’re talking about them right now. I would make the same arguments about Catholics if we were discussing Simon De Bolivar and Conquistadors and Blood Quantum.
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@ Aabagond
not as an idea through which to make sense of the world, much less question your beliefs, like your far from nuanced Islamophobia.
My impressions come from other Muslims and what I witnessed people in that culture. By you’re reasoning I’m afraid of Islam when it’s the obvious skin color hierarchy in Islam, that no one ever wants to acknowledge, that I dislike. It doesn’t scare me because I’m not Mauritanian or Sudanese. I’ve never been enslaved by them or under threat of being enslaved. I just know people who were and have been and they are by your myopic definition “islamophobic” just like I’m racist for having the same views about American white people. And I don’t think one group is better than other. I think they’re the same. You seem to think Muslims are less racist than White Christians and I have a feeling that viewpoint isn’t based on any real world experience with them,
And do you just not care about the racism in Islam because it doesn’t jibe with your argument? Because call me Islamophobic if you want to I know Black Africans that were actually enslaved by them so I really don’t care. You can think they don’t use religion to hide their racism if you want to. I’ve actually seen it first hand and studied their religion and culture so I don’t have that privilege.
And again I’m not saying White People are better. I’m saying both are as equally bad as each other. And you’re acting as if that’s not the case because you’re not as familiar with the Muslim kind of racism. Allow me to introduce you to Prophet Muhammad’s words on the black race:
______________________________________________________________
“Do not bring black into your pedigree.”( Don’t intermarry or claim any children you make with black women.)
“In Paradise, the whiteness of the Ethiopian will be seen over the stretch of a thousand years.”-because when black people go to heaven their reward for being good is that they get to become white people.
______________________________________________________________
Is the The Prophet Muhammed’s own words in the Koran about the black race that I belong to that he enslaved still me being Islamophobic?
Even the Arabic word for black people “Abd” that they still use today means SLAVE. That’s what they see when they look at us: A Slave. And Mecca was a slave trading capital. And the Koran encourages sex(rape) with female slaves.
Like actually read what it says like I have. That’s THEIR holy book and it says right there. You think they don’t follow that?
Experience some Islamic Racism or Enslavement, you’ll be Islamophobic like a lot of Africans I know are.
Or maybe you’re just be the same anti racist person you are now and you’ll realize Whiteness and Blackness have different meanings to different people outside of the United States.
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@Abagond
For what it’s worth, James Baldwin, who also lived in Europe, thought the same thing. I can’t remember where he said it but he said that every country has it’s Negroes.
I kind of get why he fell out with Richard Wright and the Civil Rights Movement. His perspective started to become less insular and he really couldn’t talk to people about things anymore because every argument becomes about semantics rather than facts. I gave you and Kiwi a whole bunch of facts that you just ignored.
But I’m the one who has beliefs and non realistic definitions when me and Linda have both actually lived in Europe and know the history.
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@ Kiwi
“Islam is not a race. Is that really too complicated to understand?”
Please provide the quote where I said it was. I NEVER on this thread that I can find have even referred to Turks as Moslems. I refer to them as IMPERIALISTS, and I do define imperialists as people who are innately racist. They’re all the same. If they’re not using skin color in their scam, so what??? Tell me, why is that so important that you would be dismissive of people who’ve essentially been through the same thing you have? You are effectively favoring some rank Imperialists over people who are VERY much like you, simply over the issue of skin color. How is that rational? Sounds to me like some frozen needs getting in the way of rational thought and appropriate human responses.
I referred to the divide and conquer scam they had that used conversion to Islam as a trick to exploit us. That should interest you as a man ostensibly interested in the ways the powerful play the weak they own, but I see an irrational rigidity in both you and Abagond’s thinking that is not logical, not rational, and not productive.
@ Abagond
“I agree with Kiwi. Based on what you said, the Turks were not being racist. Cruel and unjust, yes, racist, no. The same goes for Genghis Khan, and probably most conquerors.”
They were acting JUST LIKE RACISTS. They just weren’t using skin color as the excuse. They had a different excuse for the SAME BEHAVIOR. Why can’t you see that?
@ Abagond
“If the Turks had acted like White Americans, they would have wiped out the Serbs, like what Whites did to Native Americans.”
They, and the other superpowers in the mix, DID set in motion the forces that, in fact, led to minority Serbs being wiped out. They’re just a little slicker. White people have caught on. They’ve gotten really slick too. And you’re very apt to point it out. Why are you missing it this time? It’s not logical.
@ abagond
“If Turks had acted like White Americans, converting to their religion would not have been enough, just as it has not been enough for Black and Asian Americans.”
But it didn’t set us free! It was what made us their slaves for hundreds of years and then led to us butchering each other. Your thinking is very narrow. You are reaching a certain equation, very simplistic, and then you’re shutting off your brain, then spitting out a pat answer. End of interest. I’ve seen you countless times see these kind of nuanced subterfuges in White racism and I’ve always enjoyed it. I’ll interpret this history using the same approach, and you can’t even hear the argument. It makes no sense.
@ abagond
“White Americans want to make what they did and do in history seem like “part of the human condition”, “what everyone does”. They use Genghis Khan and others to that end. They do not want to face up to their sick mindset.”
That’s what you’re HEARING me say. I noticed that about white Americans a LONG time ago. I’m talking about something else. This is a whole ‘nuther thing. I’m a Srpkinja. We’re WAY more like Black American women than White American women. It ain’t even remotely close. You see how me and Alita carry on? That’s been going all my life and is a paramount reason I’ve hung around these parts. To say Black women have been some of my best friends is inaccurate. ALL of my best friends have been Black women. I don’t know what would have become of me if it weren’t for them. I would have become a little pile of bones on the side of the road long ago, I imagine. They saw who I was before I did. There’s a reason for that. We think and feel alike, because we’ve been through the same kind of stuff in the same half a millennium, But you’re just seeing surfaces and then all the pat reactions hit and I ain’t even in the room. I don’t like it when people treat me like I’m a ghost. I’m real touchy about that. Extinct people are like that.
You know that feeling when you think if you just say the right words you can get past this stereotyped idea somebody has, and they’ll finally hear you? But it never works? That’s how you make me feel. I’m talking about peanut butter and you keep talking about oranges. How the rest of the world plays the racism game IS relevant to the discussion. It is completely illogical to dismiss it, but if I were a woman in a hijab talking about all of this, let’s say this whole game plan went down exactly the same and it was White Christians doing the dirty to the Middle Eastern people I happened to be from in this casting, you would hear me loud and clear. No problem. You’d find it interesting. You’d write a post about it. But you are complicit in the skin game. You like it. You just want to play it on your terms, At my expense. How often do you think that’s happened to me in my lifetime, considering I assimilated into Black America 40 years ago? (Something no one even recognizes as possible.) I’m real touchy about that.
And I won’t go quietly into the night. Srpkinja are even louder than Black women. I saw that documentary last week on youtube, “Slavery after slavery” They called it peonage, you know. And they obviously defined it as slavery. That’s what we were going through. Peonage. Same old, same old. And they were talking about all these crazy laws they put on the books so if they needed a little extra free, Black convict labor it would be easy to make a round up. One of the the things that was illegal was talking loud around White women. I split a gut. “But what if they’re louder?? How are we even going to be heard??” “That’s the least of your problems, at least till now.”
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@Alita Regina
I see where you did, but I am trying to understand what makes you view Islam as worse?
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@ Abagond
I still think Anglo America racism has the most Impact but that’s largely due to circumstance and pure ruthlessness on the part of Anglo Americans(US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand/British).
Part of the reason Anglo American racism became so pervasive globally is that it was cuturally applicable to every country that came under it’s rule. Anglo American racism made the people do it’s work for it, and then it sat back and counted the gold.
But your argument that racism is why we were enslaved doesn’t take into account the face that even if we were sold to the Ottoman Empire we would still have been slaves based on our skin color. The Ottoman Empire just didn’t need to expand Westward. It had the richest part of the world already.
That’s why the Spanish and everybody else came to the America’s in the first place. That black plague and being cut off from Northern Africa and the Silk Road because of the Ottoman Empire.
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@Abagond
Race is social concept anyway. So I don’t get why you seem to feel different societies can’t have a different concept of racism than Americans.
That’s why your stance is obviously stubborn. You use that fact to, rightly, debunk race realism, and pseudoscientific racism but then you refuse to acknowledge that other societies, like Europe, have different definitions of racism than Americans do?
If you agree that race is a social concept then logically there has to be more than one definition of it.
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I think the term ethnic cleansing is in order here.
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@AlitaRegina
I get what you are saying and based on somethings I read I agree, but you do seem to be arguing more about what you think Abagond believes and less on what he said or implied.
Also the quotes you mentioned are not in the Koran, they are said to be in habith. They are not the same from my understanding.
As to you being islamophobic, it really comes down to whether or not you are trying to paint all Muslims with the same brush.
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@Sharinalr
I wasn’t saying Muslims were worse it’s just that their particular brand of slavery and racism hasn’t changed or reformed.
Christian Imperialism and Racism has more influence and it’s more far reaching but I think that was because Christians don’t enforce strict customs and they’re willing to speak the language of the people they colonized. It’s way more adaptable.Christianity has changed. Its the one monotheistic religion that really can do that because it has no customs, only traditions and not even strict ones at that, and the Bible can be translated into any language.
Islam and the Koran only expanded to areas of the world where people practiced customs similar to Islam before it came under Islamic rule. So learning Arabic and all the rest wasn’t as much of a stretch for them. And the Koran has never been altered. It can’t be. It must always stay the exact way it was written, that’s why it can’t ever be translated. There’s advantages to that,and disadvantages to that. But that’s also the reason why slavery and pimping disguised as marriage is still going on today. What do people think Boko Haram was trying to do with all those Nigerian School Girls that they kidnapped? They were trying to sell them as slaves or into those “by the Hour” marriages.
That’s the kind of thing people in Eastern Europe are afraid of when they think of Turkey trying to enter the EU. What’s happening in Nigeria and a lot of those countries: people being kidnapped and sold as slaves.
But I think both Abagond and Kiwi are getting caught up on the whole “Serbians are white to Americans” thing. When in Europe Slavic people aren’t considered white and Light Skinned or Even Brown Skinned Arabic people consider themselves “White” in relation to Black People. Because In their society they’re the dominant group so they see themselves as being on the same level as Whites.
Not all people of color see themselves as people of color. A lot of Hispanics and Middle Eastern people identify as white, regardless of what color their skin is.
Apparently race is only a social construction when it’s used to debunk scientific racism. Any other time it’s fixed and rigid concept that has no variations.
I mean it’s like how when people said Africans sold their own people into slavery and they honestly didn’t. To them that was selling other races of Africans into slavery. Even the Xhosa and the Zulu see themselves as different races and in general in other parts of the world where everybody is close to the same shade, races are defined along ethnic ancestry and features rather than skin color because everyone is black, white, yellow.
Even Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in her biography “Infidel”, and I’ve seen Somalians and Ethiopians do this, went to Saudi Arabia with her Grandmother and complained about racism but then they went to Kenya and considered Kenyans inferior because of “race”.
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@Sharinalr
I was more backing up what Linda said. And I did point out some problems with both their reasoning. Like when Kiwi said that black people’s color was why were slaves even though we were Christian when the reason Black People are Christian is because we were enslaved.
In Linda’s case the reason Serbians were enslaved is because they refused to covert to Islam and enslave other Serbians. And I was arguing that even people who converted, like a lot of the German Jews, still got persecuted for religion they didn’t actively practice but that their ancestors did. And since race is socially constructed and in Europe Jews and Slavic people were considered lesser races, it was racism. It would be like me becoming a coon and backstabbing and selling out my own race just to ingratiate myself to whites to get ahead is the same as me being equal to whites when if I was I would never have to do all of that and I shouldn’t because that’s not a choice. I’m not going to do white people’s dirty racist work for them, they can do it themselves.
And I was just saying people have different perspectives but they’re trying to argue that race isn’t a social construction or something.
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@Abagond
I think I have a comment in moderation. You can delete it.
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@sharinalr
I’m not trying to paint them all with the same brush. I’m just pointing out a lot of the racism in that culture that I know about. Particularly with the slavery thing.
And even if it isn’t in the Koran a lot of Muslims follow and believe that.
And at least in my experience most Muslims don’t have any moral qualms about slavery as an institution or a concept. As long as they haven’t been enslaved. Most Christians think slavery is wrong because our religion teaches that it’s wrong. And morally I do think the slavery that they practice is SO wrong. I don’t think it has anything to do with God or Allah at all it has everything to do with money and power and control of women and children as chattel. In principle and in practice.
I was criticizing it as an ideology and a culture not Muslim people as a group. And again Christianity is just as bad it’s just not the subject and Christianity has unrealistic expectations so that you sin and pay the Church to be forgiven. In Islam basically every sin or haram a man would commit there’s some sort of exception for that basically makes the rule meaningless. The “by the hour” or “multiple marriages” to keep men from being punished for adultery,being a prime example of it. But I know not all Muslims practice that, I was just saying a lot of that slavery ideology targets Black Africans. And Islam conditions them to accept that, which I think is very wrong. Submission to God I like as a concept, but I don’t think you should ever blindly submit to authority because that’s just asking to be abused and victimized.
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@sharinalr
Especially if that authority is a man and you’re a woman. That’s why that girl I knew was constantly getting pimped but she basically learned that from Islam and her father. And she’s completely brainwashed into being like that when she has a perfectly functioning mind she just refused to use,
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Eastern Europe already has sex slavery. That’s what the movie “Taken” was about. For Europeans to make the issue about Islam is an Islamophobic double standard.
That they’re actively trying to get rid of and a lot of the traffickers are Muslim Albanians, Uzbekistnanians, and Turkish people. And France is just one country anyway. You’re over simplifying again. Every culture has sex slavery but Islamic and Hindu culture promotes it as being “holy” and acceptable. In Christianity and Judaism it’s not.
And France is Western Europe. You can’t compare Eastern Europeans to Western Europeans especially in their relations to the Islamic World, the history and the present is different. No one in Eastern Europe just had a bitter civil war over the Chistianity Islam issue.
When I lived in France, Serbs were always considered white while Arabs did not consider themselves white and got along better with blacks, at least in my experience.
In my experience all French men see women as sexually available until explicitly and rudely told otherwise, especially the Arab men.
I really dislike men who push up on me because they think my racial inferiority makes me an easy lay. And one thing I couldn’t stand about Muslim and Hindu racism was the fact that they were so friendly about it and they smile in your face and say racist things and treat you subserviently but then complain about white French People’s racism without the slightest self awareness. They stalk you, because white people don’t accept them as equals, so they constantly stalk black people to treat us like an inferiors. Especially the men, they treat black women like free prostitutes and because some of African ones are receptive to that they think all Black Women like it and they don’t keep their hands to themselves and they don’t respect boundaries. Or if they do they act like they’re doing you some kind of favor by doing it.
No one is sexually threatening you like that Kiwi, on a daily basis and I’m assuming you haven’t been raped like I have by guys from cultures like that so your perspective on that is different from mine. And we’ll just have to agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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@AlitaRegina
“And even if it isn’t in the Koran a lot of Muslims follow and believe that.”—–I know they do, but the Koran is more equal to the bible whereas the hadith is a day in the life of muhammad written by traveling companions. An autobiography so to speak.
I agree with you for the most part,but Christianity taught that slavery was acceptable. It was used to justify slavery. Even though, Christianschool like to ignore and exclude such passages it is still their.
Another thing for me is the west is big on enslaving people into their way of life and thinking. I know this is a bit off, but if you do not follow the norm you are a savage and once the norm is forced on you then you become a new slave.
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Correction there*
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@Kiwi
And in my experience, most Muslims see slavery as wrong. So I guess our anecdotes cancel out, huh?
The Koran doesn’t say that it’s wrong, it actually encourages female slaves to be raped and slavery is still practiced in many Islamic Countrie and I know two people who were enslaved by Muslims. One is Black African from Mauritania and another is Yemeni.
Even the comic Persepolis has a woman who is enslaved by the main characters family. That didn’t make it into the movie but it was in the graphic novel and the main character asks her parents about it. Especially since in that book the main plot is about Iran becoming increasingly fascist under a fundamentalist government but here are her parents are keeping a slave woman. Despite all their progressive beliefs.
And the fact light skinned Muslims practice slavery of Black Africans isn’t an anecdote it’s in the Koran and it comprises most of the slavery that still goes on in Africa.
So no your anecdote is just ignorant.
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–I know they do, but the Koran is more equal to the bible whereas the hadith is a day in the life of muhammad written by traveling companions.
How is that different from the Quran because I thought that was basically the same thing? Isn’t the Quran Muhammad’s revelations? And I did a comparative study on this years ago so I’m not completely ignorant but it’s been awhile.
I agree with you for the most part,but Christianity taught that slavery was acceptable. It was used to justify slavery. Even though, Christianschool like to ignore and exclude such passages it is still their.
It’s actually not acceptable. People were enslaved in the Bible but it’s generally presented as bad thing that God saves them from. Like the story of Joseph. Parts of the Bible were arguably distorted to accommodate Christian slavery. It’s why Harriet Tubman called herself Moses, it was irony. And it still doesn’t go on today though. I don’t know any enslaved Christians. I know people who were descendants of enslaved Christians but not people who were emancipated in their lifetime.
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@Kiwi
there are even greater numbers of non-Muslim traffickers that are Russian, Ukrainian, and Romanian is not important.
Even greater numbers? You know this for a fact?
And where did I say either form of sex trafficking was okay? You’re reaching again.
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@Kiwi
Because I’m pretty sure I said all of it was wrong.
None of that has anything to do whatsoever with Slavs being seen as whites or Arabs considering themselves nonwhites.
Yeah because you ignored all the stuff I said about it. Like the fact the Nazi’s considered Slavic people lesser races.
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@sharinalr
Another thing for me is the west is big on enslaving people into their way of life and thinking. I know this is a bit off, but if you do not follow the norm you are a savage and once the norm is forced on you then you become a new slave.
The West is like the Devil. It gives people a choice that appeals to their basest instincts but it still gives people a choice. It manipulates people but it still gives them a choice. It lies and uses divide and conquer, but that’s about the same as the Islam’s imperialism to me. They are both equally evil to me. One has just enslaved people I know personally which was pertinent to this topic. That’s all it was. I befriend more practicing Muslims I respect than practicing Christians, probably because most Christians don’t practice their religion, they either weirdly mourn it (Catholics) or celebrate it(Protestants specifically Baptists) or some combination of the two.
Many Islamic Customs, like Ramadan I practice because I respect and agree with that portion of the ideology but all of the things related to women I can’t really f.ck with on a personal level.
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@Kiwi
That still doesn’t change the fact that Europeans today see Slavs as white.
Do they really? Because NATO totally had their back in the Balkans war-
Oh wait:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/19/the-genocide-in-srebrenica/
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@Kiwi
That’s where the most sex slaves come from, isn’t it?
No. Not originally a lot of the time. Have you ever actually watched Taken? Wasn’t the main character who was taken American who was kidnapped? And that story is actually completely made up BS by the way:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/327330
And you’re making the mistake of assumed all the trafficked victims are European. Where do the African ones come from pray tell? Because you know African people are trafficked too right?
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@Kiwi
If me guessing what over a billion people think based on anecdotes is ignorant, then it is just as ignorant for you to do the same. Thank you for validating my point.
I don’t know where you’re getting these random statistics from. You haven’t provided any type of reference source.
I actually quoted the hadith and the koran. I’m assuming Muslims agree with holy book.
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@Kiwi
I’ve seen Christians debating in online forums go to enormous lengths to defend slavery in the Bible, using morally bankrupt arguments that left me gaping in disbelief.
“Christians”, many of whom don’t even actually read the Bible. I was referring to the actual text itself in comparison to the Koran.
And the difference between the Quran and the Bible is that the bible is an ANTHOLOGY its several different texts that reflects different perspectives spanning thousands of years. Slavery is mentioned in the Bible but as happening to people. I don’t remember it being mentioned as something that God condones or thinks is acceptable for followers of Christ. The Bible is a history of the lineage of Jesus so it mentions some things that they did and experienced but people will take one passage from Leviticus or something WAY out of context.
The Quran is supposedly the philosophy and revelations of one man.which does say that keeping slaves and raping them if they’re female is okay. A man who actually did keep black people as slaves. Things like Sharia law come directly from the Quran.
The basis for White Christian Slavery was first that slaves were not Christian, therefor it was okay to enslave them. Then when White Imperialists wanted to keep it going into racial slavery they claimed that Africans were descended from Ham and again they took a passage out of context where Ham and his descendants were cursed by his father Noah for looking at him or molesting him possibly when he was drunk in his tent.
And even back then no one took that reasoning as morally serious and many Christians like the Quakers were very active in the underground railroad believed it was their moral duty to help people like Harriet Tubman escape from slavery.
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@Kiwi
Speaking of actual text: “He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.” (Exodus 21:16)
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@Kiwi
So how do you explain why I experienced racism in Europe while none of the Slavs I knew ever did? I’m sure it had nothing to do with them being white.
Maybe it was the country you were in. You could have not seen it for any number of reasons. If it was France you never said that you spoke French. There was a lot of things you probably didn’t pick up on if that was the case.
Besides I doubt you’d want to have been around for the Balkans War. If you’re in University now you’re probably the same age that I was, a child, when that was happening and I doubt… it would have been… very safe for you.
Obvious goalpost shifting is obvious.
Muslims follow both the Hadith and the Koran. They’re both about the Prophet Muhammad and his life which is what their religion is based on, Prophet Muhammed’s revelations. And Muslims still practice slavery of Black Africans:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/03/world/mauritania.slaverys.last.stronghold/
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@Kiwi
Great quote. Now I know that every Christian who ever owned slaves didn’t actually read the Bible.
Many of them don’t that’s why I don’t get along with them. And that’s why it’s called sinning. But my point still stands that in the Bible Christian God doesn’t condone enslavement. the Bible was distorted by Christian people who practiced slavery in a way that Koran and Hadith isn’t. And the Prophet Muhammad did keep Black slaves. Most of the people who practice slavery today in Africa are following Muslim Ideology because you are permitted to keep slaves according to Islamic Theology and Law, and it says that you an rape them:
“Besides being practiced more or less openly today in Sudan and Mauritania, there is evidence that slavery still continues beneath the surface in some majority-Muslim countries as well – notably Saudi Arabia, which only abolished slavery in 1962, Yemen and Oman, both of which ended legal slavery in 1970, and Niger, which didn’t abolish slavery until 2004. In Niger, the ban is widely ignored, and as many as one million people remain in bondage. Slaves are bred, often raped, and generally treated like animals.”
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=27440
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@Kiwi
Great quote. Now I know that every Christian who ever owned slaves didn’t actually read the Bible.
Now you know every Christian who risked their lives fighting against slavery and participating in the underground railroad, and fought to get slavery abolished did actually read the Bible.
I don’t see nearly as much of a social push to get rid of slavery in Islam. There are laws against it but it’s still practiced on black people.
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@Kiwi
“Raiding non-Muslim territories became a constant phenomenon after Muslim powers were established in Southeast Asia…. Over five centuries after Muslims came to power in the early fifteenth century, those animist hill peoples completely disappeared as a result of their incorporation, through enslavement, into the Muslim populace of Malaya, Sumatra and Borneo ‘by a mixture of raiding, tribute and purchase, especially of children.’… In Muslim wars in Southeast Asia, the enslavement was often complete: the entire population were enslaved and carried away…. These enslaved people…[belonged] to the polytheistic Hindu, Buddhist and Animist creeds….”
M.A. Khan, Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery (143-144)
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@ Kiwi
The Quran:
There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave(he was not black he was Arabic). Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him( An Arab) for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)
Muhammad sold two black people for one white man. And Muhammad actually argues against slaves being freed:
the freed slave of Ibn ‘Abbas, that Maimuna bint Al-Harith told him that she manumitted a slave-girl without taking the permission of the Prophet. On the day when it was her turn to be with the Prophet, she said, “Do you know, O Allah’s Apostle, that I have manumitted my slave-girl?” He said, “Have you really?” She replied in the affirmative. He said, “You would have got more reward if you had given her (i.e. the slave-girl) to one of your maternal uncles.”
Every culture has problematic things but this one, because I’m a descendant of enslaved people bothers me the most. The fact that it still goes on today and no one is saying that it’s wrong. They just lie deny that it happens and make slaves look like members of the family and the whole community colludes in the process. Even the laws against slavery were passed just to keep good diplomatic relations with the West.
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@Kiwi
The simple point I’m trying to make is that all religions kill, enslave, rape, and oppress. You can always point to religious texts to support or disprove an idea. You believe Christianity opposes slavery but that Islam is okay with it and try to rationalize that by interpreting the Bible and Quran in a way that is specific to you.
I believe that as an agnostic and a lapsed Catholic, I just totally mentioned that I fornicate-hello, as a human being who was descended from enslaved people I oppose all forms of slavery and any industry that traffics in suffering and human misery, no matter who practices or what their reasoning is for. Be it religious or racial or based on sex or debt. I think all of it is wrong, that’s what you’re not getting.
In the General Tso’s thread I mentioned how much I dislike White Canadian hypocrisy about supporting sex trafficking of Asian women but then being racist and banning what Asians eat when if they were really being fair about it they would ban Foie Gras and Veal as well.
Christianity has already abolished generational slavery for the most part. And it did that on it’s own not at the behest of another religion. Islam hasn’t and I know people who escaped from slavery, one of whom is from Mauritania and still has a mother enslaved there.
The problem is that everybody that has ever committed heinous deeds interprets and practices their religion in their own way, so it becomes a matter of “Oh, then they must not be true Christians/Muslims,” if they deviate from the behavior we expect of them. In fact, they’re all individuals with different motives.
You said just that about race. I am surprised you do not feel the same about religion.
Once again and hopefully for the last time, I never argued that slavery under any circumstances was justifiable or moral. Just that Islam still practices it today and that I think that is wrong and I agreed with Linda when she said that being enslaved by Islam was akin to black people in America being enslaved. Her perspective of it was just different. And she happens to be white but in Europe race is socially constructed differently there and people we would consider white are treated inferiorily. I wouldn’t dismiss her struggles with this any more than I would want her to dismiss mine. And we agreed with each other but you and Abagond didn’t because you were applying the American definition of race to Europe and it doesn’t apply there because Slavic people means Slave people. That should tell you right there that other Europeans think of them as lower races.
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@Kiwi
The simple point I’m trying to make is that all religions kill, enslave, rape, and oppress
By the way I do know this. Thats why I don’t really follow any religions.
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@ Kiwi
“So how do you explain why I experienced racism in Europe while none of the Slavs I knew ever did? I’m sure it had nothing to do with them being white.”
I don’t know about France, but in the UK and Central Europe anti-slav racism defintily exists.
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@AlitaRegina
The west gives people the illusion of a choice in my opinion. Natives were not given a choice when their land was taken. Mexico was not given a choice when their land was to be taken. If we swim over sees many countries are not given a choice in regards to getting America and its armed forces out of their country.
“How is that different from the Quran because I thought that was basically the same thing? Isn’t the Quran Muhammad’s revelations? And I did a comparative study on this years ago so I’m not completely ignorant but it’s been awhile.”—How is the bible different from an autobiography of Jesus? The bible consists of scriptural versus and metaphors that are said to be the word of god. An autobiography consists of the life journey of a person. It could say “Jesus knelt by the water and drank. He then went to sleep.” Those type things. Day to day life things. I don’t think you are completely ignorant but neither am I.
Slavery actually was acceptable in Christianity. Here is a link to bible versus and not one shows God saving them, but more so how to conduct life with a slave (http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm). It was not until new testament that much change was made.
“And it still doesn’t go on today though.”—Not true at all. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/05/19/modern-day-slavery-america-must-fight-epidemic-human-trafficking-here-at-home.html)
That is only one snippet, but I read a while back about a white couple who enslaved an african women in their home for years with the threat of deportation. I believe I also read of this happening to a Hispanic woman as well.
“I don’t know any enslaved Christians.”—-That does not mean they do not exist. It just means you don’t know any. Plus I did not say anything about the enslave being just Christian.
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correction overseas*
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At any rate if this is to be further discussed then it needs to be taken to open thread or somewhere else. This is less about Genghis Khan.
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I don’t think one can always clearly distinguish between nativism and racism. As I said I don’t know about the situation in France and in UK it might be just anti-immigrant sentiment, but in Germany anti-slav racism (especially anti-polish) has a long history and doesn’t correlate with polish immigration. I would say their situation is comparable to white Hispanics in the US.
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How is the bible different from an autobiography of Jesus? The bible consists of scriptural versus and metaphors that are said to be the word of god.
I’m going to pick a bone with you here. And I’m not defending the Bible but this is where people do get it twisted. The Bible is an anthology first of all. So taking one part of ONE BOOK of a 73(Catholic) or 63(Protestant) anthology, much of which is history and genealogy and twisting it entirely out of context as representative of the faith is something everyone in and outside the faith enjoys doing and it really distorts the values. The reference you linked was a RABBI talking about two books in the Bible. Christians are followers of Christ so most Christian philosophy follows the New Testament. Not the Old Testament which is the same as the Tabernacle. Judaism doesn’t follow Christ so Jewish people always ignore the New Testament and without getting into a long debate about Jews and their relationship to Jesus this is why Jesus was most definitively not a Jew by faith. By birth he was but not by his faith.He espoused a LOT of beliefs like ministering the Gentiles(Non Jews) that is one of the reasons Jews do not accept him as the Messiah. Not getting into whether there is an actual Messiah or if so whether Jesus was it that. I don’t get that deep into it. I just know it.
There is no autobiography of Jesus in Christianity. That’s one of the things Muslims I knew liked to brag about, they would constantly say, the Koran is the unchanged words of Prophet Muhammad or something like that. I admit all the books and authors in the Bible leaves room for distortion and confusion and much of what was written about Jesus was done 100 years after his lifetime but that’s because Christian Theology is way more complex than people give it credit for and one of the good and bad things about it is it leaves a lot of room for REFORMATION because you can always argue something.
To date there has been no reformation of Islam and I don’t think there ever will be. Especially with the fact that Muhammad kept slaves. You could make a comparison between Christianity and Islam if the prophet that we follow, Jesus Christ kept slaves like Muhammad did but Jesus was expressly against that. Jesus wasn’t even alive when Exodus and Leviticus was happening. So that doesn’t apply to what Christians believe. If Christians followed the Old Testament they would go to church on Saturday and follow the dietary rules of Leviticus, one of which is not to eat pork. Christians, except from certain denominations, don’t follow or adhere to strict customs like Jews and Muslims do.
People love to pull out random quotes from Leviticus and Exodus when that’s a history of Jesus’s lineage. History meaning past and it’s a distortion especially with Exodus because that whole book is about Moses freeing the Israelite from slavery. That’s why it’s called THE EXIT.
Islam is the religion made from followers of the Muhammad and even the links you sited describe the practice of slavery happening to people in the Bible. It NEVER says a direct quote that espouses that God or Jesus condones slavery.
The west gives people the illusion of a choice in my opinion. Natives were not given a choice when their land was taken. Mexico was not given a choice when their land was to be taken. If we swim over sees many countries are not given a choice in regards to getting America and its armed forces out of their country.
Actually again I have to disagree with you as a Latino. Some people were given a choice. The whole reason the Spanish conquered Latin America so quickly is that they used Native People against each other. Even Malinche the Interpeter that accompanied Cortez on his conquest did so because she was a slave of the Aztecs. The Spanish didn’t do the conquering they used the Natives who had been enslaved by the Aztecs and the Mayans and had centuries long grudges against them to do it for them and then they enslaved the survivors. They used divide and conquer and smallpox but that was incidental. Guns, germs, steel and divide and conquer. The British did the same thing in India too. They came in and offered support to one tribe or faction against it’s enemies and when the fighting was all over and they were all weakened they stepped into the power vacuum or set up a puppet government whose strings they were pulling.
The biggest power the West has is suggestion. In the beginning, when the actual fighting between Natives and Europeans was going on, at least in North America, the Natives actually had the tactical advantage in every way. Guns were slow and not that technologically advanced back then, arrows were faster and more deadly and unlike gunpowder you could use them in inclement weather. The French, British, and Spanish played different tribes off against each other and the Natives biggest mistake was forsaking their own weapons for guns. That made them dependent on trading with the English and that opened up the door for bio warfare in the form of smallpox and alcohol.That’s another thing that the West does:make trading dependencies and poison people. But again it’s like making a deal with the Devil. Satan always lies so even if he’s giving you what it is that you think you want, it’s going to cost you your soul. Real World example: the flu vaccines in Kenya that were laced with sterilization chemicals. The Kenyan Government and MANY of these governments are actively colluding with the West to do things like that to their own people. It’s a very cowardly and weaselly way to get power or influence over a country but it always works because there’s always some greedy opportunist or someone who can be extorted. But again their government just took the money for the vaccines and didn’t bother to look a gift horse in the mouth.
Granted the people who do refuse to deal with the West get sanctioned but that doesn’t always have that much of an impact. Especially in the case of Venezuela.
The Middle East though, Islam is colluding with the West to strangle that region. And it’s going to work every time because that religion is too focused on male power and money. If there’s something worldly a country needs the West will find a way to bribe you with it or deprive you of it. But this is why people need to work together. Men and Women, Interdenominational and intersectionality. And the only philosophy that really permitted that was Marxism, that’s why Capitalism is so against Communism because it nationalization cuts off resources for foreign business interests. The West doesn’t have a way to wedge itself into those countries politics and affairs and it can’t manipulate.
That’s what happened to Afghanistan. Women were getting educated and men felt threatened by that so they sold out their own country to the West to become a opium den just so that they could keep women in their place.
Women can reform Islam if it stops oppressing them but everyone that has tried has been assassinated.
“And it still doesn’t go on today though.”—Not true at all.
Are black people still born into slavery? The guy I knew from Mauritania, who escaped from it was born into slavery and he branded to distinguish his as such. Him and his mother. He had to run away from the country just to get out of it. And certain African people, like Somalians and Ethiopians see the people he belongs to as another race of Africans. Even that b.tch Hayan Hiirsi Ali’s grandmother complained about Saudi Arabians treating her like an inferior but when they went to Kenya they looked down on Kenyans as inferior.
Every country has trafficking and it’s illegal in every country, and different ways of prosecuting it exist. The DIFFERENCE is that when Christians enslave people they are committing a Sin against God and under Christian law God will punish them. Under the mandate in Exodus and under the philosophy of Jesus Christ. Christianity itself has a lot of moral blind spots and grey areas as does the Bible but Slavery is not one of them, I’m sorry.
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@Sharinalr
Keeping with this, the West is Satan, metaphor, all the West can do is tempt you but the desire has to be there for them to even do that to begin with. Did any of those people realize what would eventually happen? No, but hindsight is always 20/20.
And Africa especially, people KNOW now that the West is evil and they still trade with them because they would rather trade with White People than with other Africans. And I think the main culprit for that is Islam. Islam and the West aren’t enemies they’re allies and they feed off of each other.
It’s interesting to note though, the people who fought colonialism the hardest were actually women.
Queen Rani Lakshmibai in India set up an army of men and women to fight the British, reading a book about her now:
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/rani.html
Yaa Asantewaa of Ghana : http://www.bornblackmag.com/yaa.html
Even back during Christian Colonialism of Northern Europe there was Boudicca and Joan of Arc.
Any resistance movement that doesn’t include half of the population will fail. That’s why when the Civil Rights Movement turned it’s back on the poor black people in the inner cities, we living like we are today. If people had supported Rani Lakshmibai and Yaa Asantewaa back in the day, those countries wouldn’t have been under the jackboot of British Colonialism.
But they were so caught up in their patriarchy that it doomed them. And that’s one reason I honestly prefer the Bible and Judaism over the Islam, it’s because of the way that women are represented especially in Catholocism. The reason why many Indigenous people are Catholic is because of Mary. You can overlap a lot philosopies with Christianity like I know Sikhs who are Christian, I know Budidists who are Christian. The biggest problem with Christianity is the Church as an Institution because it distorts a lot of what the Bible teaches for profit. The actually ideology has a lot of intersectionality built into it already.
Islam is almost the exact opposite. The actual mosques themselves are as good as the Imaam is its just that the religion itself espouses slavery. And I don’t seriously believe that God in Heaven condones and I do think it’s a sin to hold another man in bondage. I don’t think Muhammad got that from God I think he got it from his own evil selfish rapist self.
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@AlitaRegina
“The reference you linked was a RABBI talking about two books in the Bible.”—The reference I linked is speaking on old testament and the purpose of it was to present scriptures that speak on slavery. Not what the Rabbi said. I can find those same scriptures in my bible and as I stated clearly above “here is a link to bible versus and not one shows God saving them, but more so how to conduct life with a slave.”
“Christians are followers of Christ so most Christian philosophy follows the New Testament.”—Being a Christian I know we reference both books. When Christians want to ignore the bad they reference New Testament. Though New Testament was not the only thing in the book. There is information with old testament that goes with what is in New Testament. It is more a matter of pick and choose with Christians.
“There is no autobiography of Jesus in Christianity.”—Duh. I used it as an example of comparison. It does not require that Jesus own slaves for my point. Which is the Hadith and Koran are not the same.
“People love to pull out random quotes from Leviticus and Exodus when that’s a history of Jesus’s lineage”—Is this not what you did to try to show God saved slaves or did not condone it?
“Moses freeing the Israelite from slavery.”—There is a reason they were freed and it has more to it than because they were slaves. None this less this is not proof that God or Jesus was against slavery.
“It NEVER says a direct quote that espouses that God or Jesus condones slavery.”—I never said anything about God or Jesus condoning slavery. What I did say was “Slavery actually was acceptable in Christianity.” According to those scriptures they were. It was a way of life. If you can point to a scripture with God Condemning it then I am here to listen.
“Actually again I have to disagree with you as a Latino.”—You can disagree as a latino, but I never said anything about the Spanish to disagree on this particular matter. At any rate what you described was not a choice. You described the lesser of the two evils. That is not a choice. A choice is being able to decide a direction on your own. One that benefits you. Not one that will benefit the people who conquer you either way.
“Are black people still born into slavery? The guy I knew from Mauritania, who escaped from it was born into slavery and he branded to distinguish his as such. Him and his mother.”—-There is a high possibility considering slavery is still alive and well. This is not about the guy you knew or the person you met. This is about the reality of what is going on in the USA. Whether you want to admit it or just dismiss it slavery is an every growing issue in the west. I have no doubt their connection is in Muslim countries. What do you think people do when a sex slave gets pregnant and a growing market for underage porn is in swing? They don’t put those babies up for adoption. They become slaves.
“The DIFFERENCE is that when Christians enslave people they are committing a Sin against God and under Christian law God will punish them”—Do quote the scripture that says god will punish Christians for enslaving?
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@Sharinalr
True it does need to go into the open thread. But I notice a pattern on here of people derailing arguments that they’re losing.
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@AlitaRegina
“Keeping with this, the West is Satan, metaphor, all the West can do is tempt you but the desire has to be there for them to even do that to begin with. Did any of those people realize what would eventually happen? No, but hindsight is always 20/20.”—Or make an excuse to simply get rid of you. 9/11 was the excuse for George Bush. Savages was the excuse during colonization. Crime stats are the excuse for black people.
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@AlitaRegina
“But I notice a pattern on here of people derailing arguments that they’re losing.”—You do realize you have been guilty of derailing a few points yourself right?
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@alita regina
“Yeah because you ignored all the stuff I said about it. Like the fact the Nazi’s considered Slavic people lesser races.”
It is bizarre to have almost 300 kin I know of (I only know one family surname so that’s likely only a third) who were exterminated in death camps as racial undesirables, and then be told that doesn’t count as racism.
It isn’t rational. It’s a reach for revenge. Someone has a lot of distress about being denied, dismissed, demonized over a dark skin color, so they deny, dismiss and demonize someone with a light skin color.
It’s just internalized racism. It’s just distress. The kind that creates more distress.
I don’t know why it demoralizes me more than when the rest of the world says we don’t matter, but it does. Oh no, now somebody’s going to jump and ridicule a ‘white woman’s tears.’ See, revenge.
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@sharinalr
You do realize you have been guilty of derailing a few points yourself right?
Not to argue with other people. Discussion might go slightly off topic,yes. But the people who derail the thread are always people who never want to concede flaws in their arguments.This whole thing went off the rails because nobody wanted to acknowledge that some people, like Serbians, might think Genghis Khan was racist and that’s how the whole conversion slavery versus racial slavery argument got started.
Abagond and Kiwi both refused to acknowledge Linda’s perspective because she’s “white’ to Americans even though the Mongols invaded the Balkans and not America. and Slavic means slave people. My whole point from the very beginning was that all slavery is racist. and she was making a lot of comparison to how Serbians are treated in Europe with how black people are treated in America and how being enslaved by the Mongols made that possible. They took issue with it because to them Linda is white and they don’t get that outside of America race is defined differently. To us all Europeans are white. To Europeans, particularly Germans so Europeans like Slavic people are a different race. All slavery is racist: It’s one of the oldest ways for one race to be superior over another race. How races are defined varies on the society that practices the enslavement. Enslavement is the oldest way of establishing supremacy and it’s not something that Anglo American white people came up with they’ve just done it the most ruthlessly and in a way that has the most impact and their particular version of it is the most pervasive.But I think that was incidental and for circumstantial reasons, like the Black Plague and geography in Europe at the time of the Age of Conquest, tying back the main topic, the divide between Eastern Muslim/Orthodox Catholic Europe and Western Europe Anglican/Roman Catholic Europe.
Kiwi and Abagond were trying to argue that Muslims/Turks/Genghis khan weren’t racist because they’re not white Americans. We were just trying to argue that their racism was different. Especially with the Muslim religion in relation to black people. I don’t know why people overlook their racism. Especially black people. And every single fact we brought up was ignored.
I know Americans like everything to oversimplified but for so many issues you really can’t do that. Especially when you talk about other people’s life experiences. Linda’s actually lived through all these wars and they were trying to say she was Islamophobic….when they know she’s a member of a group that was enslaved by Muslims.
So if everyone who was enslaved by another group has a phobia of them what does that make Black Americans? Anglo Americanphobics?
Phobia just means fear anyways. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a justifiable fear of enslavement.And Islam has and continues to enslave people, that’s why I started to talking about Islams enslavement of the Black Race, particularly Black Africans. So Linda’s Islamophobia is at about the same level as my Anglo American-phobia.
Americans are so bad at intersectionality, this is why a lot of people don’t like us.
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@ Linda
It is bizarre to have almost 300 kin I know of (I only know one family surname so that’s likely only a third) who were exterminated in death camps as racial undesirables, and then be told that doesn’t count as racism.
YES EXACTLY! I don’t think they realize how they sound.
This is why you can’t argue with people’s experiences and jump down people’s throats because they resemble someone who did you wrong. You’re not even American and Europeans don’t even consider you white and you don’t identify as white so I don’t get what they’re p.ssed off about.
They’re totally coming at you like you’re a White American, and you’re not either. You’re Serbian European. There is a difference between Europeans and Americans. They’re inadvertently doing the Reverse Racism thing that white people do. I could see if you were trying to argue about something American White people did to American Black people but you’re not so I don’t get what the issue is.
I keep going, “yeah but you guys the Holocaust.” And they just keep ignoring it like the Holocaust doesn’t count as racist genocide or something.
I’d like to know what that was if it wasn’t racist. Religist?
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“It lies and uses divide and conquer, but that’s about the same as the Islam’s imperialism to me.”
That’s why it’s valuable to study the way Islamic Imperialists have done their oppressions, because the West apparently has been and is adopting it. They’ve become much more subtle than in years past, and they’ve broadened their horizons. I don’t believe we really know who’s really manipulating things. I seriously doubt it’s really anyone we’ve voted for.
This is another reason it’s dangerous to only focus on how the White Christian power vortex oppresses people of color. It will just lead to being blindsided. Basically, US foreign policy is White American racism on steroids. It’s not just satisfied enslaving people of color. They want to enslave the whole human race. And the use of euphemisms to conceal what they’re doing is becoming so common, and the US public, Black and White, is relatively complacent.
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@Linda
And even so people died. There’s nothing privileged about dying in a gas chamber.
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@Linda Keres Carter
THIS!
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@Linda Keres Carter
And the use of euphemisms to conceal what they’re doing is becoming so common, and the US public, Black and White, is relatively complacent.
Yo….like….I was trying to explain all this to people but Americans are so tunnel visioned the discussion never goes anywhere. No matter how many facts and references you provide. I feel like a lot of identity politics in the age of the internet have become these kinds of weird selfish powerlessness struggles. It’s not just white people that are collectively racist, it’s many collectively non white people but for reasons that have to do with power and control. And people don’t realize slavery is about power and control it’s not just about race. Race and religion were just the justifications some people used. They realize it in one area but then they ignore it in another area. Or they act as if you are.
Americans particularly middle to upper class are privileged, that’s why we suck at intersectionality and that will be our downfall. I saw the same people doing that in Europe and I tried to explain to them that they’re not in America and what applies to us doesn’t apply everywhere. But it’s like talking to a brick wall. They just want to throw identity politics epithets at people even when it doesn’t make sense. Like comparing the shark fin trade to human slavery or something stupid like that.
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“This is a lie. I’ve seen Christians debating in online forums go to enormous lengths to defend slavery in the Bible, using morally bankrupt arguments that left me gaping in disbelief.”
Where are they? What forums? Let me at ’em. I’ve never lost one of those debates.
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@Linda Keres Carter
I don’t know why it demoralizes me more than when the rest of the world says we don’t matter, but it does. Oh no, now somebody’s going to jump and ridicule a ‘white woman’s tears.’ See, revenge.
If it helps people from Africa and the Caribbean do that to Black Americans a lot and it used to bother me until I saw how they put up with inferior treatment from Muslims, East Indians, and White people. That’s why I said it’s a “powerlessness struggle”. We’re not even talking about a region of the world Black Americans lived in but somehow the White Man is still a part of the discussion because many powerlessness struggles are pleas for white people’s or whatever oppressor’s attention. That’s why I gave up on social justice on the internet or anywhere in America ages ago. Even when we’re right in the butchers apron people would rather argue about semantics or petty ego BS.
Things are tense right now here, in terms of race relations and while I get that, me especially, a lot of that is a red herring for other things and many people stubbornly refuse to see it. So you’re the scapegoat for a lot of the ire that people feel about things going on here.
Which I find…quite backwards and retarded. Because I know its not that much better in Europe. All this stuff is global now.
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@Linda Keres Carter
I guarantee you most of the people coming at you like this on the internet, would never say sh.t to you or actual racist people in real life. Because they’re scared of them. That’s what annoys me about it.
People will talk about anti racism, all day long. But when it comes to actually putting any principles in practice they never do it. That’s why they can talk so much because they never want to do anything else but talk. They want to talk about it but they don’t want to be about it.
If they actually lived it they wouldn’t need to take revenge on some anonymous commentator over the internet. And that’s the main problem with a lot of oppressed groups, the scapegoats start looking for other goats to scapegoat. And it’s never a discussion. Everyone just wants to dictate to other people because they’re trying to take their power back from people who are just as powerless as they are, because they’re too afraid to take it from the people who actually have power.
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@AlitaRegina
“So you’re the scapegoat for a lot of the ire that people feel about things going on here.”
Thank you for acknowledging that.
I like that ‘powerlessness struggle.’ Why is it so hard for people to see that they’re just complying with divide and conquer?
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@Linda Keres Carter
Why is it so hard for people to see that they’re just complying with divide and conquer?
Because of fear and ego. Playing the victim is an easy to manipulate people so many victimized people feel like it’s their only form of power and agency.
That and many of them are selfish opportunists who don’t want to reform a broken system so much as gain access to that broken system for themselves. And I can tell who those are just by who they constantly attack.
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@AlitaRegina
“many Christians like the Quakers were very active in the underground railroad believed it was their moral duty to help people like Harriet Tubman escape from slavery.”
One little correction, from a Quaker. The involvement of Quakers in the underground railroad was overrated. It was mainly run by runaways themselves.
http://afriendlyletter.com/quakers-underground-railroad-humility-time/
Not to
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@ Linda Keres Carter
Of course! I know white Christians did debate the slavery thing extensively but even American Christianity is it’s own thing. The whole abolition of slavery was mostly done by enslaved people for themselves. But they were Christians, since they were largely forced to be. Harriet Tubman called herself Moses for a reason.
One of the cool things about being black is way that we manage to take everything designed to control us and in turn use that to exert control or agency. Gospel music and American English and our style of dress is the biggest example of that.
Its getting to the point where I’m getting sick of everyone copying us and biting our style but still thinking they’re superior to us,even though in terms of invention they’re always behind us but I’m too tired to argue with the world.
And I wasn’t defending Christianity so much as I was arguing against enslavement. I’m agnostic on my good days, atheist on my bad days that’s as far as it goes.
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@Linda Keres Carter
I should have known. Nixon was a Quaker.
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“I should have known. Nixon was a Quaker.”
LOL Oh, but don’t forget those Coppock boys. There are lots of stories of Quakers who went the distance. They were considered radical, though by conservative Quakers, who were the majority.
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@Alita
How does any of that excuse the fact that you also derailed and refuse to concede to flaws in your argument?
What I remember reading Abagond and Kiwi saying is different from what you said they claimed. I believe their issue was not that those people could not be racist, but it was not inline with the definition of racism.
At any rate I must say good night.
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@Linda Keres Carter
“They were considered radical, though by conservative Quakers, who were the majority.”
Most people that push for changes are considered radicals. Jesus being the most famous example of that.
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@abagond
How does any of that excuse the fact that you also derailed and refuse to concede to flaws in your argument?
Show me where I did that in the open thread. Because all I said was that I had a different opinion and that I disagreed and why I disagreed.
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@ Alita
That is NOT from the Koran.
That is NOT from the Koran.
That is NOT what we said. Please quote where we made that point.
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Linda Keres Carter said:
To which Alita said:
Except that no one said that or implied it. If I am wrong, please quote where someone did.
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@ Alita
Where in the Bible was Jesus EXPRESSLY against keeping slaves?
Please quote where the Bible comes out against slavery.
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@ Alita
With the Koran, with the Bible and with me and Kiwi, you are putting words in our mouths.
Kiwi and I are pretty careful in what we say, so please read and try to understand what we ACTUALLY wrote.
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@Kiwi
That’s why its called SEXUAL slavery. And again its one person who thinks that they’re superior forcibly dehumanizing another person they think is inferior because of sex. You may not think this but there are men out there who think women are lesser human beings, or a seperate race because race is a social construction. I don’t get how they figure that either especially in terms of reproduction but that’s why they treat women’s bodies like their own property. That’s why anyone treats another person like property.
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@ Alita
Except that it was not. Even in Anglo America that was not used as an excuse till the 1660s. The excuse at first was religion, just as it was in the Muslim world. For the Greeks and Romans it was neither race nor religion – it was just a matter of being on the losing side of a war or the wrong end of a raid. Racialized slavery is a Western invention that only goes back a few hundred years.
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@Abagond and Kiwi
Jesus didn’t own slaves but Muhammad did. And since Jesus practiced what he preached, enough to be crucified for it, that was him expressly forbidding it. I could quote the beatitudes or the golden rule and I actually did in the open thread but Christs actions speak louder than his words. He did die for telling people to worship God and to love each other.
If you’re going to be obtuse and act like enslaving people is man loving their fellow man, I got nothing to say to either of you, lmao.
And Muhammad did own black slaves, and he also raped the slaves that he owned.
Like please give this up, you both look ridiculous.
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@ Alita
That is not what the word “expressly” means. It means he stated it explicitly. What you are presenting is YOUR interpretation, one that was hardly universal before 1860.
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Except that it was not. Even in Anglo America that was not used as an excuse till the 1660s. The excuse at first was religion, just as it was in the Muslim world. Racialized slavery is a Western invention that only goes back a few hundred years.
You mean racialized slavery based on JUST skin color. And even that’s not really accurate because most people who do manual labor tend to be dark from being out in the sun for long periods of time. They also tend to have “rougher” features in general from leading such physically harsh lives. That’s where the caste system in India and a lot of countries comes from.
Even the Nazi’s thought Jews had darker skin or a “swarthy” appearance because race itself is socially constructed so different soceities, like Germany, has different ideas of what a different race is so there are different kinds of racism not all of which are based on skin color or even appearance but also by class, caste, religion and ethnicity. And most of those population groups DO tend resemble each other based off of shared lifestyles,occupations, ancestry, diet and lineage.
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@Abagond
That’s your interpretation, to me actions speak louder than words, actions like dying for other people’s sins.
Or owning slaves and raping them like Muhammed did and I notice you keep avoiding that comparison point so I guess all inhumane treatment in the name of religion is okay but inhumane treatment based on color if the skin is the greatest evil ever and the more you argue semantics the more you are implying it. And you’re being selfish. Just because it’s the oppression you’ve experienced it doesn’t negate the fact that other people have suffered for different equally inexcusable reasons outside of their control. Many of whom may bear a resemblance to the people that oppressed us but that’s all it is a superficial resemblance. If you can’t see past that now, I hope you gain the wisdom and experience grants you the perspective to eventually.
And going with the slavery is racist, since most population groups look similar because if shared lifestyles, ancestry, occupation ect enslaving one is an act of forcing that population group into a dehumanizing position and exerting inhuman superiority over them. That’s what racism is. Its believing that one race is superior over another. No one would dehumanize someone they saw as an equal. That’s why people make up reasons to label other people as inferior, to rationalize dehumanizing other human being for whatever it is they gain from doing it.
Black Americans weren’t the first or the only group of people to suffer that kind of oppression. One of the main reasons dark people in general are singled out is because dark skin is so common. If it was rare slavery wouldn’t be very lucrative or as ubiquitous as it is thoughout humanity and human history.
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Correction: so I guess all inhumane treatment in the name of religion is okay but inhumane treatment based on color if the skin is the greatest evil ever and the more you argue semantics the
@Abagond and Kiwi
And seriously both of you, learn some more history and find another outlet for your daily frustrations with white people. Like maybe actually speaking up to them, when you hear them say antisemitic jokes Kiwi.
If you weren’t such cowards in real life you wouldn’t have to brave on here and gang up on someone like Linda who just trying share her perspective on the oppression she’s experienced.
Take your power back from the people who actually took it from you. No one here has any to give either of you.
Stand up like men, so you don’t have to cowardly bully women on the internet like dogs.
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@ Alita
You are putting words in my mouth again.
Let me be super duper crystal clear so you can stop with the straw men:
Rape is wrong.
Slavery is wrong.
Mass slaughter of civilians is wrong.
Do you got that?
I am not giving Genghis Khan – or conquering Turks or the Ustasha – a pass. Hardly. What they did was evil regardless of whether they were racist or not.
Racism is not the only cause of evil in the world. It is not even the only reason one might dehumanize another person, as Kiwi pointed out with rape.
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@ Alita
Where did I bully Linda?
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@Kiwi
instead of listening to people of color like most
Instead of letting you dictate to her, you mean. And I thought she was being sincere and trying to be understood, you on the other hand were being condescending. I hope you’re as condescending with those antisemitic white people in real life, that’s all I can say about it.
white antiracists do
She’s.
Not.
Considered.
White.
So come off it already.
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@abagond
Let me be super duper crystal clear so you can stop with the straw men:
You and Kiwi both started with the straw manning her argument. And then you just wouldn’t let another person have a different opinion from you. You had to dictate what racism was as if both of you are the final arbiters of that.
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@abagond
And you’re both still being condescending and all I can say is I hope you have the courage to talk to racist people or people you decide to label as racist like this in real life. But judging by how overzealous you both are about a discussion, I doubt it.
I know cowardice when I see it.
Come off it.
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@Kiwi
“Sometimes, when people are proven wrong about something, they make up a straw man and attack that instead in order to avoid embarrassment.”—-True, but I am trying to figure out why every time an argument ensues then the claim is “black Americans don’t listen…etc.” Especially when A) the one they are arguing with is not black or B) when they are black they are not American or C) They so happen to not be black or American.
I mean dang.
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“Do they really? Because NATO totally had their back in the Balkans war-”
I remember when that pix of the Bosnian girl was first published here and the sense I got is that people were sympathizing with her because they think Bosnian = Moslem. An example of 90’s propaganda headline “Serbs occupy 75% of Bosnia” with a story about Serb aggression. They left out one detail. Serbs have occupied 75% of Bosnia for 500 years. They’re the poor, rural folks who will look more Middle Eastern (Moslem) due to the centuries of Ottoman rape. In a war a ethnic Serbian woman in Bosnia might indeed be showing a moustache she is unable to deal with cosmetically, given the events she’s living through (confiscating our tweezers is cruel and unusual punishment). And who knocked her teeth out? And how long has she been without shelter she smells bad? And yes, it was a northern European guy who scrawled those comments.
We are racially ambiguous people who’ve been persecuted by Moslems and Christians alike for centuries. We were part of the Middle East for 500 years, for chrissakes. But our worst experience has been from Aryan Supremacists.
The west was doing such a curious thing with the propaganda that Serbs were evil Islamophobes genociding the poor brown people (Moslems). And they’d show a picture of some dead, dark-haired Bosnian Serbs and identify them as Moslem Bosniaks. When the rest of the time the western media was demonizing Moslems. It was very curious. And they just cared so much about those poor brown people they bombed Belgrade to crush the evil Fascist aggressors.
I have a friend who’s severely PTSD’d from what she calls the NATO invasion. (She’s the one who went to a Black college because she trusts Black Americans more than White.) It was a very ominous precedent set, the West flat out invading and destroying a thriving, peaceful country with a diverse population living in harmony, out of it’s own ambition and portraying it to the world as a ‘humanitarian’ effort. The West lost all semblance of credibility. And the degree the media is to be trusted is zero.
One of the more ominous things going on here is the way the media is basically choosing which cases of police brutality become famous. Black people aren’t choosing them, the way they did in Birmingham years ago, the media is, and sure enough, just watch as they all turn out to be poor cases that make all those protesters/rioters look like lunatics and the polarization of America proceeds.
But let’s just all keep fighting amongst ourselves. That’s the intelligent thing to do.
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@Linda
I would like to think most black people are highly aware of media lies. I am pretty sure those on here are and have been much longer than me. No one is ignoring your struggle, but our struggle is not a mirror image of yours. Asian struggles will not be a mirror image of yours. That does not mean yours is less. It just means we have difference in what areas are important.
Though why is it you believe yours is the end of all? If your people are not heard then black Americans are picking a fight with you? Why does it need to be just about you?
I like hearing your experience. But this struggle is not just about you or me.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
“invading and destroying a thriving, peaceful country with a diverse population living in harmony”
Come on, even if I account for the regular Serbian chauvinism nobody can say that with a straight face.
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That IS what was going on over there, prior to the West becoming covertly involved, importing back into Croatia the children of the sadistic fascists who killed so many of my kin in the 40’s. If you are incredulous, it’s only because of what you don’t know and what you’ve swallowed wholesale from US propaganda. So much of this is in the public record.
It’s not a wild conspiracy theory. It’s well established that war criminals in countries that became communist were not prosecuted by the West. They were harbored by the West and then slipped back into their countries when it was convenient to destablize those governments.
There’s a lot written about this. Michael Parenti’s “To Kill A Nation” is a good place to start.
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Here’s an interesting article: http://inserbia.info/today/2013/08/croats-bosnians-serbs-you-have-been-manipulated-war-was-staged-former-cia-officer/
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“Come on, even if I account for the regular Serbian chauvinism nobody can say that with a straight face.”
Here’s a documentary outlining the events to destablize our country and blame the people who were being successfully genocided:
(https://youtu.be/waEYQ46gH08)
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@ Alita
Condescending? Overzealous? Please quote the comments where I was either of those things towards Linda on this thread.
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@Sharinair
“Though why is it you believe yours is the end of all? If your people are not heard then black Americans are picking a fight with you? Why does it need to be just about you?”
I guess it doesn’t come through to you, but the message I’ve gotten really strongly, repeatedly, is that our story is of no relevance. I’ll get real excited and want to say, ‘hey, this that happened to us totally corroborates what happens to you,’ and the response I get very frequently is that I’m trying to DISMISS??? what’s happened to Black people. That’s what I keep hearing. Over and over and over again. I think you’ve been around when you’ve seen me slammed, or maybe it was too much reading and you missed it.
Then somebody will challenge me and I’ll provide links and then somebody thinks I’m trying to make it all about me. I don’t feel that way towards other people. I’m so open and supportive of Black people that that’s my family, my friends, my community, my world. It’s so bizarre how things get twisted when they go through the ‘White’ filters.
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@abagond
Please quote where the Bible comes out against slavery.
I can’t seem to find where the Bible specifically comes out against a lot of inhumane offenses like the sexual abuse of children, but I’m pretty sure it’s generally understood that “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” condemns that. That’s why the Catholic Church hid that it was going on and continues to hid it, because men’s privilege to be free of punishment is more important than actually following God’s will. And since children can’t be scapegoated like women, they have no way to address the issue so they just don’t address it and it keeps happening and making them look worse and worse. They’re paralyzed by patriarchy.
By your reasoning Christianity condones pedophilia and child kidnapping because some priests do it and the Church doesn’t punish it and actively hides it. I’m pretty sure Christians and most people take issue with that. That’s why it was being hidden.
In Islam slavery, and its abuses like child bride selling and rape, is practiced pretty openly, by Muslims of all walks of life. Many of them just rationalize it by practicing it on people they consider non Muslims or as a punishment to practicing Muslims who happen to be poor and in a vulnerable position. Or they outright lie about it to people outside their religion. And unlike Jesus, Muhammad did own slaves. And slaves are considered property so most of what happens to them people turn a blind eye to.
It’s not the same case with orphans. People in Christianity turn a blind eye to their abuses because they delusionally trust the Church, and the Church actively hides and covers up the abuses.
In Christianity slavery is hidden because it’s considered wrong. If the Christian Prophet was Joseph Smith you could argue that Christians don’t consider slavery wrong but Jesus Christ is the prophet. In Islam slavery is practiced openly because they see nothing wrong with it in principle because Muhammad did it and the people who are enslaved are infidels because they were born to people who practiced animist or matriarchal religions or they were born the wrong sex. And unlike in the West there is no social support net for a lot of the poor, particularly women, that’s why all the child selling that poorer Muslims do with their own children happens.
I don’t even think it’s a case of the West being more modern in terms of economics. Places like the geographic region that is considered the Middle East have always been economically well off, precisely because of their location as throughway point or trading hub, and all the wealth they get from indoctrinating North Africans to enslave Sub Saharan Animist Africans or Africans that don’t have Arabic(White) features. That’s where the term Middle East came from because to get any Asian or African commodities, like Salt,Jewels, and Silk to any of the other world markets you need to go through it. And you need manual labor to transport those goods, even today, and people never want to pay for manual labor. They’d rather just use other living people as beasts of burden, and even kidnapping and selling women for sex slavery goes back a long time too. That’s why women of a certain status are covered up in garments like Aabiyah all the time, so no one will “steal” (rape) them. That’s why Muhammad, who was a man of his time, kept slaves, and I don’t think Islam will ever be reformed.
And although the West is quickly regressing in many labor, women’s, and children’s rights, I think it’s a case of different cultures geography,history and tolerance to certain abuses and cultures that practice open slavery do tolerate a lot abuses of women and children. If there’s one thing Christians can be counted on having, it’s hypocrisy and shame and guilt. That’s what curbs a lot of Christian excesses because of that “But what will God (other people) think if they know about it?” If people feel comfortable being open about something they feel comfortable going to extremes and that’s what’s commonplace in Islam but there’s this huge silence about it in the Western World because of the money we get from men in that culture and the trade relationships we have with countries we haven’t sanctioned for trying to nationalize their resources.
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And that silence about Muslim, many of whom are African or Asian-But who may not always consider themselves a person of color, many of them classify themselves as White even Black Somalians because they come from a culture that enslaved another culture that’s why they identify with Anglo American White or European or Lighter Skinned People in general, more so than they do with American Black People, because we were enslaved by Anglo American Whites.
That’s why slavery of any kind is racist because even the Black African people who practice or had it practiced on them identify with White or Lighter Skinned People, in relation to cultures of people who have been enslaved, hate to break it to you.
Silence about Muslim abuses is why no wants to look at the similarities between enslavement of Balkans people by Mongols and the Enslavement of Africans by Europeans.
Because the Mongols were from Asia and they were doing it to people from Europe.Slavery is always about power and control first and foremost and whatever places a person in a weaker position will be used to justify their enslavement. Whatever that groups common feature is:religion, class, SKIN COLOR, ancestry, occupation, caste, ethnicity, or any combination of those will be used as way to brand them at that status, or exclude them as “sub-human” or a separate “race” of whatever continent-African, Asian, European- of people, that’s why the Mongols moved the Serbian Border and made Serbian People’s country into a subcontinent when they invaded.
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White people are tight when they say, power and control hierarchies based on skin color(as that relates to class, ethnicity, religion, occupation, caste or whatever is common and makes people in those population groups in a more weaker position) exist in every culture. Giving the Devil his due.
American White People are just usually employing that defense to dismiss or downplay the racism they’re practicing at present and I see a lot men do that with sexism. They’ll talk about another cultures sexist abuses to draw attention away from their own present real time abuses. One of their favorite countries to use, to throw Western Women off the scent of their sexism, is currrently India:
“Women THERE have real things to complain about. Sure you get paid less than a man but a least you get to work outside the home. I know you don’t live in India so what those men do doesn’t affect you as much as what men like me are doing but I want you to get so upset about the oppression those women are experiencing at the hand of those men, that you succumb to you National, Economic or Ethnic Privilege and you direct your frustration and anger at them as way to accept being oppressed by me.
But…we’re. not. talking. about. America. Or. Anglo American White People’s Imperialism and Enslavement in this particular thread. People seem to be using is as a comparative indicator to support the wishful thinking that only White People oppress other people but that’s just wishful thinking.
White people have the best and most successful run of dumb luck about getting away with it that human history has ever seen. I give them that. But more and more now I see that it’s because of the way the people they oppress succumb to being divided(skin color,class,religion, SEX) and conquered(fighting each other and or not uniting in solidarity long enough to realise we’re being attacked, collectively as a group until it’s too late) with one another.
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Black people would rather anonymously attack another powerless minority on the internet, because I notice when the commenter Kartoffel, who sounds like a man said:
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@ Kiwi
“So how do you explain why I experienced racism in Europe while none of the Slavs I knew ever did? I’m sure it had nothing to do with them being white.”
I don’t know about France, but in the UK and Central Europe anti-slav racism defintily exists.
@Kiwi
I don’t think one can always clearly distinguish between nativism and racism. As I said I don’t know about the situation in France and in UK it might be just anti-immigrant sentiment, but in Germany anti-slav racism (especially anti-polish) has a long history and doesn’t correlate with polish immigration. I would say their situation is comparable to white Hispanics in the US.
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Than actually speak up to whoever is oppressing them in real life because that requires more courage and effort than making a person, a WOMAN at that, that they can conveniently label as white for the purposes of discussioncommentator on the internet into an effigy for all their frustrations with Anglo American White People.
Maybe I understand it more because I’m not a punk who lets anyone treat me like an inferior and I actually advocate for the things that I believe in, instead of just talking about them in a place where I can’t be held accountable for the things I say…by those very same people who treat frustrate me because they treat me like an inferior.
My grandmother, who can pass for White, but d.mn sure isn’t White, not in the least, she’s ninety years old and she says “cr.cker and h..ky” so casually and with a genteel Southern Belle accent that it will make your head spin and she still owns a 38., said it best,” People always want to talk about high yellows like cr..kers wanting to be all up in our face all the time is something to be envied.That’s because a lot of want to be white because they don’t see nothing wrong what white people do, they just wish that they didn’t do it to them but let me tell you something: The White Man Only Does What You Let Him Do. When black people stood together and said, ‘We will not be moved, no matter what you do- They Stepped Back.’ If black people wouldn’t let white people run them they wouldn’t complain about me looking so much like one. As if I have any control over what I’m constantly catching h.ll for from both sides. White men disrespect me, because I’m not white enough to marry. Black men marry me but then disrespect me because they’re too Black to marry a White woman.”
I think a lot of this mindset has to be passed down genetically because even in my own family all my brother and uncles are black but all of the women are lighter shades. And my grandmother stopped being a domestic worker to work in industry because she got tired of being sexually harassed all the time. And while I hate to think about how that was conditioned into our family on a genetic level I just know that no enslaved people were any less oppressed, some privileges like a minority that looks like a member of the majority BUT ISNT, just come with a different kind of oppression that cancels out or negates the privilege in most cases.
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@Kiwi
What is “black culture”, anyway?
Gospel and Blues and misdirected anger for a start.
I never knew blacks had a hive mind.
All nationalities, ethnicities, cultures, display a certain kind of willful ignorance or collective opinion about certain things and issues.
Like misdirected anger and failing at intersectionality.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
Here’s a documentary outlining the events to destablize our country and blame the people who were being successfully genocided:
This is dead room but my Dad is a Black Latino and I know quite a bit about the CIA doing things to destabilize a government. *cough paying Manuel Norriega to assassinate Omar Torrijos and then funneling cocaine into the United States cough*
It’s weird how he made the connections that Slavic people are akin to White Latinos in the US. I heard many Germans make the same comparison about Polish people, saying that they were the Mexicans of Europe. But didn’t carry it that same assertion into CIA intelligence and destabilization of governments. And at another time Linda you will have to share your opinion of Joseph Tito with me because I’ve always wanted to ask someone from the Balkans about him. I get very different range of opinions because he’s such a polarizing figure.
Even physically a lot of Eastern Europeans do look like some of my nieces and cousins, basically tan Eurasian people.
I don’t know much about the Balkans but it sounds like there’s a LOT of similarities between your region and Panama.
I just BET a lot opium based drugs and guns get smuggled into Europe from the US/UK occupied Middle East through your region right?
Lol that’s why they want to destabalise it. That’s not funny it’s just sad how predictable U.S. intelligence.Since they can’t set up a U.S. controlled military style dictatorship or occupy it. Not so close to Russia but one can dream.
You mentioned U.S. involvement in Serbia. I’ll have to look into that more.
By the way I’m sorry. If it helps, the police on local and state levels do the same with Gangs in the inner city. The FBI/DEA and the inner city help and harbor them to destabilize the inner city. And then they kill innocent citizens to look as if they’re doing something about it. I’m going to watch that documentary by the way.
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@Linda Keres Carter
Okay so, in Americans defense, there’s the CIA and they control most of the media now. And most Americans turn a blind eye to what they do.
And they don’t really understand Marxist ideology and the Ottoman Empire and….basically your region of the world is very confusing to outsiders but a lot of Western People in general don’t like to acknowledge the way our government’s intelligence manipulates…you all. We’d rather just say, “They be killing each other.” Even when they generalize the Balkans they talk about years of conflict but that’s all they talk about they never go into specifics.
This is exactly what happens to poor black people in the inner cities and poor people in general. They blame us for shooting each other when they give us the guns, or selling drugs…that they supply that have been smuggled in by the army so that we would sell them…and then get locked up forced to do slave labor. I don’t think it’s wrong for prisoners to work, I just think it’s wrong for that labor to be exploited because what happens then is that everything becomes a crime and people keep wanting more and more prisons…for free labor.
People will do ANYTHING to get something free or low cost. It’s really sad.
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@Linda Keres Carter
We could be having a more interesting discussion, if this “powerlessness struggle” wasn’t getting into the way of it. I swear on Abagond’s before that used to happen. There was another Serbian Commenter and also way more women in general….But he’s gotten so many groupies to parrot his opinion and attack people with different ones that it’s just not possible anymore and you’ve seen them. Usually Abagond’s pretty laisse faire about global issues and more willing to admit his own biases to certain things but it’s a tense week for race relations and you happened to be the person people want label as a white troll. Because all the actual white trolls are busy.
I don’t know why black people always feel the need to have a white troll in these kinds of discussions. You should see how quiet the other thread got when I talked about grassroots black liberation methods to combat racist human rights abuses on a local level. Ones that required actual real time organization and effort.
But as soon as a white person shows up everyone wants to argue with them or engage them. And you’ve unwittingly stumbled into their midst and they’re out for blood.
PoC really want white peoples attention. As long as they don’t ever have to confront them in real life. I’m sitting here shaking my head right now honestly.I can’t believe it’s come to this. My generation is f..ked.
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@Linda Keres Carter
Correction:
But as soon as a white person shows up everyone wants to argue with them or engage them. As if that’s going to get us somewhere or make us feel better about ourselves in any substantial way.
No wonder the Black Panthers got disbanded. They were way too ahead of their time on certain things on of which was intersectionality and that made them a legitimate threat that needed to be eliminated. Everyone back then was. I don’t know what happened in between then and now. I mean I do sort of but I just can’t believe it in some ways.
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@ Alita
People? Like who? Who on this thread thinks that “only White People oppress other people”? Be specific. Provide a supporting quote.
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@AlitaREgina
“Black people would rather anonymously attack another powerless minority on the internet, because I notice when the commenter Kartoffel, who sounds like a man said”—Except Kiwi ain’t black. Just like Jefe is not black.
The main people you are debating with are either not black (minus me and Abagond) or not American (Jefe and Anne). Yet it amazed me how you can come here with a whole rant about black people or black Americans. Black Americans/people are not perfect, but if you are atleast going to talk sh*t then know who you are talking it to.
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@Kiwi
I like hearing Linda KC’s experiences and she does have valid points, but the quotes you mentioned are troublesome for the reasons you mentioned. I have seen this on other threads. When her experiences are not validated she lashes out. I don’t feel that is right. All this over the definition of racist or racism. yikes.
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@ Alita
You cannot find where the Bible openly condemns slavery because it does not. Your INTERPRETATION that it kind of does through the Golden Rule and so on is just that, an interpretation, one that was hardly universal before 1800.
The Bible took final shape in 367. The British Empire outlawed the slave trade in 1807. The Catholic Church did not condemn it till 1839. What does that tell you? That it had little to do with the Bible. Or the sort of Christianity that most Christians follow.
Even after the pope in Rome condemned the slave trade, bishops in the US only condemned the overseas slave trade, which was outlawed anyway, not the sort that went on in every city in the South, tearing families apart. Thus your noble Christians and their touching regard for the evils of slavery.
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@Kiwi
“So do I. I just don’t like her lecturing and talking down to blacks like they are children.”—I agree.
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Genghis Khan is at the top of my list of historic hunks!
http://herneithmyblog.com/category/top-ten-historic-hunks/
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@AlitaRegina
“This is exactly what happens to poor black people in the inner cities.”
I have to tell you something. It’s very interesting that you are assuming I’m from Serbia. Well, I am — a total throwback — but not physically in this lifetime. My immediate family was culturally genocided just before the First World War. My grandmother made it over here (US), was coerced into ‘converting’ (passing), was treated like a possession of little value and was forbidden to tell us who we were, or about the famous (it really was) freedom fighting family we were from that was being cut in half. We were told we were Croatian. So my father and I lived through the 20th century not knowing who we were, BUT we hardly talked about anything else.
‘Cause all we could talk about was Black people and racism. That was how we were parsing a devastated identity. We didn’t know that’s what we were doing, but we did it very well. Then those were the people I chose to know in my adult life. Friends, family, children, husband, in-laws, neighbors. Everyone.
It’s the same mind. (Sharinair, no this isn’t just run-of-the-mill similarities of oppressed people, there IS something special here. We’re hated the same way by the same kind of haters, those po’ white trash Croatian Klanners. In the same time frame. The same stereotypes. Same qualities. Same quirks. Same terrors. It’s phenomenal. We ARE mirrors, and the fact that it’s in Black and White makes it all the more special. We completely corroborate each other, and our specialties complement each other.)
It’s when I started to write a memoir about why I’d made such maligned choices I refused to give up, that I discovered who I was. A journalist in Belgrade started informing me on my family history and the history in general, and the politics. She is just like everybody I’ve loved in my lifetime. She and I talk about exactly the same things I’ve been talking about with the people in my life, all my life.
I hit the ground running. I already knew the whole story. It’s the same story. And the same people. I can’t tell the difference. It’s that Serb vibe. That’s what I see in y’all. And in us, there’s a Serb vibe receptor gene hard-wired in, and it’s dominant. For 600 years it’s been life or death important to know our own, and there are no physical clues. Y’all are my Serbs. So conjoined, not even Ben Carson could separate it out, and I’d claw him like a panther if he tried.
It’s the same identity, except we spent half a millennium defending our right to it, while y’all spent that time confounded by a demon tormenting you that it was something you’d want to escape that you couldn’t. And that’s why some people are irritated with me. They can’t understand why I would choose this and go to such lengths to hang onto it. It’s something they think they want to escape, when I just crawled back over the edge of the earth to find it. I had to, because what’s on the other side of that edge is utter self-loathing. I have to have that mirror or I imagine there’s something there that’s worthless, but when I look in it and see you I see what God sees.
We’re really very special.
The world needs people like us.
We may be its only hope.
I love us.
—
And that’s why I put up with all this b— s—.
So what’s been happening this week? Did they start those air strikes yet?
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@Linda Keres Carter
My immediate family was culturally genocided just before the First World War. My grandmother made it over here (US), was coerced into ‘converting’ (passing), was treated like a possession of little value and was forbidden to tell us who we were, or about the famous (it really was) freedom fighting family we were from that was being cut in half. We were told we were Croatian. So my father and I lived through the 20th century not knowing who we were, BUT we hardly talked about anything else.
I thought it was your heritage. But I’m from Chicago which has a big SlavicEastern European community, particularly Polish so I’m a bit more familiar with the kind of ethnic passing you describe. My best friend growing up was this Jewish Romanian girl who pretended to be Italian or Hispanic to fit in in the hood. She’s actually in the Vice Lords Now and she she’s strait up Vato. She considers me Bourgousie…which…you don’t know me but I grew up in the most deadly murderous part of the city and I manged to live to adulthood and get an education so it’s a pretty funny inside joke. But yeah a lot of Central Americans will do that too. In Chicago Nicaraguans and El Salvadoreans will pretend to be Mexican since everyone just assumes they are because most Hispanics are Mexican and also because Cartel affiliation and Gangs is even here now. In NYC they say they’re Domincan or Puerto Rican for the same reason. Although some of them have been told that they’re a certain nationality. For some reason it’s bad to say you’re a Mexican in NYC, probably because they do all the low wage jobs but aren’t gang affiliated as much here.
Cause all we could talk about was Black people and racism. That was how we were parsing a devastated identity.
A lot of ethnic white people do that. That’s why many Jewish singers did black face, and I met a lot of Polish, Albanian, Croatian people who listened to rap and rapped while I was in Europe. They would wear cornrows and use n..ga. But not in a racist way they called themselves that too because that’s how a lot of them got treated, and saw themselves especially in Germany. That’s why on a personal experience and logical level I get where you’re coming from.
A lot of lower class people of all races use that term because Hip Hop is basically the global language of the oppressed. It’s interesting to see. The only reason I liked Germany is because they were strait up open and honest about their racism whereas the French people I met tried to act like putting Turkish People in ghettos and sectioning them and Algerians off from the rest of the main society and denying them advancement or opportunities wasn’t racist because Americans are racist.
Everyone is racist, even Africans, they just have a different object of their racism. Every country has its Negroes. I’ve known that even from when I was young and watched all the ethnic and class divsions between middle to upperclass Italian, Irish, Jewish, Polish Greek Americans.
It’s something they think they want to escape, when I just crawled back over the edge of the earth to find it. I had to, because what’s on the other side of that edge is utter self-loathing.
I beat the sh.t out of his Slavic Neo nazi girl in Dresden. We were staying at the same building and I think her friends put her up to it. I told her Hitler was gay and that she was a slave too.
The upside of that beating was that she was alone a lot after that. I think Neo Nazi ideology stopped appealing to her after that.
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@Sharinalr
Yet it amazed me how you can come here with a whole rant about black people or black Americans. Black Americans/people are not perfect, but if you are atleast going to talk sh*t then know who you are talking it to.
I do Know who I’m talking it to. The comment about antisemitism was directed at Kiwi. And if black americans lived the anti racism that they talked about online, or in private, then the police wouldn’t be killing us and we wouldn’t be protesting. But that point and many others were clearly lost on you.
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@Sharinlr
I don’t spend as much time stalking other people’s comments as you seem to. I read and respond to the ones that I find interesting. So I really don’t know as many details of their personal lives as you do and I don’t have the time or the inclination to dig through here to find kind of stuff out especially since I was arguing against behaviors they displayed at the moment or statements that they made.
I really don’t give a f.ck what other people think about me either, because I see how people like you and Kiwi build people up to bring them down. Because for the both of you social justice and anti racism is a spectator sport or social clique. Even in real life I don’t side with someone in an argument just because I know them, it depends on whether or not I agree with what they’re arguing no matter how well I know them.
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@Sharinalr
That’s why you sit in the background all jeering or cheering but not making any statements except to supplant another person’s poorly constructed argument. That’s why Kiwi is on here talking all the anti racist stuff he wishes he had the courage to say to those racist white people at his lab in real life.
You’re just Abagond’s cheerleader on this thread anyway and it’s easy to talk from the sidelines. Every single time you make a statement you retreat back to the audience because you don’t have an argument to defend except, “Whatever Abagond says is right.” And Abagond’s argument was ” I agree with Kiwi.” And Kiwi’s argument was cowardly and retarded and full of factual errors.
But I guess debates are won by consensus rather than actual rhetoric or evidence around here. That’s what this site has been reduced to. And it’s really boring.The only reason I replied to Linda was because she was actually saying something interesting about the main topic and she clearly had an premise to defend and a perspective to share not just misdirected anger and certain realities to negate.
But go on and keep talking about things I wasn’t directing at you but then acting like you don’t want to argue when I actually engage you in discussion. Because you don’t want to “rehash” or correct the flaws in your argument, or in mine because you never actually bothered to point out the flaws in my argument that you insisted I refused to admit to after I asked.
I think that was General Washinton’s strategy with the British in the Revolutionary War and I see that a lot on here. Only engaging the opponent when their back is turned.
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@AlitaRegina
“I’m from Chicago which has a big Slavic, Eastern European community, particularly Polish so I’m a bit more familiar with the kind of ethnic passing you describe.”
My grandmother lived in McKinley Park, where my parents grew up. Back of the Yards. Next to Cicero. Till I was 14 I lived in the Argo school district, where Emmett Till lived till he was nine. Nobody White knew that at the time. At fourteen we moved to the Polish Hills (Palos Hills) school district filled with white flighters. The Bigot Belt adjacent to the south side ghetto of Chicago. I left Chicago ca. 1982. A decade of being treated like a whore by that racist city for living on what it considered the wrong side of the color line left me traumatized. I’ve mentioned that here in the past and had it scoffed at as not a real experience of racism. But being from the Bigot Belt, I knew exactly what psychological function that scoff was serving.
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@Abagond, Kiwi, and Sharinalr
Thus your noble Christians and their touching regard for the evils of slavery.
I don’t think Christians are noble I think the vast majority are image conscious easily shamed hypocrites. Their hypocrisy and guilt is where you get leverage on them. And I think it’s easier to argue with the Bible than the Quran.
Jesus Christ was noble. More noble than Muhammad.
And Jesus Christ is why I’m glad my ancestors were enslaved in a Christian country rather than an Islamic country like Mauritania or really any of those countries because from what I saw in Europe and Canada and the United States despite how much Muslims complain about Islamophobia whenever there’s anything wrong in the Muslim world, admittedly instigated by the West, many of them break their necks immigrating to the first Western Christian Country that will give them refugee status knowing that it’s a Christian country and not someplace like Indonesia because according to them Islamic Racism is worse that White Racism:
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“Arabs hate black people. And that is not from today, it is in their blood,” says Aboubakr, a young man from Senegal who is hoping eventually to cross over into Europe. He spent almost a year in Morocco’s capital Rabat before coming to this forest camp near the Spanish border and his experiences there left him feeling bitter.
“Friends of mine were attacked with a knife. Bandits target us because they know we cannot go to the police, even if we are robbed and hurt. Having no papers, we will be caught instead. Blacks have no rights here.”
Aboubakr is also insulted that Moroccans “cannot believe many of us are Muslims too.” According to him, people are surprised when they see him kneeling for prayer. “They don’t think a black can be Muslim.” Many Africans know that Arab states have not responded to atrocities in places like Darfur and Sudan because the people getting slaughtered are black Africans.
Black African guest workers in places like Egypt, Algeria and Libya have spoken about being publicly ridiculed and physically assaulted by Arabs. Egyptian writer Mona Eltahawy has written about watching a Sudanese girl being assaulted and tormented on the Cairo Metro, concluding, “We are racist people in Egypt and we are in deep denial.” She says the Arab world has ignored the suffering of Darfur because the victims are black. “We only pay attention when America and Israel behave badly.”
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/african-refugees-say-arab-muslims-more-racist-than-europeans/
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And again the enslavement continues:
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Princess Meshael, 42, who has been living in California, kept her Kenyan maid confined to the condo and took away her passport and other documents.
According to the Guardian: “Prosecutors in southern California have charged a Saudi Arabian princess with human trafficking and accused her of bringing a Kenyan woman to the United States and holding her against her will as a servant.
“The accused woman, Meshael Alayban, 42, brought the Kenyan to the U.S. in May and paid her $220 a month while holding her passport and keeping her confined to an apartment complex in Irvine, California, where Alayban lived, Orange County prosecutors said.
“The servant, whose name was not released, had to wash dishes, cook, clean, do laundry and iron without a day off, prosecutors said.
Authorities said they found four Filipino women in the home, who also may have had their passports seized by Alayban’s family. An investigation was under way into whether others were involved in the alleged human trafficking scheme.”
According to the Daily Mail: “Alayban was arrested after the Kenyan woman carrying a suitcase flagged down a bus after escaping and tearfully told a passenger that she was a human-trafficking victim.
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It’s a good thing that Kenyan woman was in California and not Mauritania because if she had escaped in Mauritania and went to the Muslim authorities, they would have asked “why she was running away from her family” instead of helping her regain her freedom and that of the other enslaved people in the Saudi Arabian princesses home.
But I guess that Senagalese migrant and that Kenyan Maid has a “far from nuanced view of Islamophobia” and thinks Christians are more noble than Arabs. Because Christians were who they went to for help to get out of those situations.
Keep believing that pipe dream though, Abagond, Kiwi, and Sharinalr.
Deuces ❤
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@Abagond, Kiwi, Sharinalr
And obviously I would prefer my ancestors weren’t enslaved at all but that was one area where circumstances didn’t screw us quite so thoroughly. And all of you know d.mn well that you would never immigrate to one of those Islamic Countries if they paid you so I don’t know why you all keep fronting.
And I really don’t care either. My points have been made.
❤
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@Linda Keres Carter
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I’ve mentioned that here in the past and had it scoffed at as not a real experience of racism.
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Americans in general and HERE especially I notice tend to scoff at a lot of things: reality. facts, logic and reasoning, evidence. A lot of my classism experiences were scoffed at by other black people.
But the internet is like that. It’s anonymous so it invites a lot of rudeness and maliciousness that most people would never have the courage to act out in real life.
I’m very sorry by the way.
And as far as the Polish Belt goes, I got along way better with actual Polish people I met in Germany than any of all those European Americans. It was like the polar opposite of Chicago which is and probably always will be extremely racist and geographically segregated. I was born in the Altgeld Gardens, in 1992. Right across from Carver Park and I know the area you’re describing very well and the color divide was sharp and real even into the 90s. Most of the friends I had were from the Gardens or they were recent immigrants from Europe. And I had to do a lot of social compartmentalization. I don’t blame you for leaving. I went to South Bend, Indiana which was a lot better even though the KKK held rallies in the next town over.
If you ever want to see what Chicago could be like if it wasn’t so socially and racially segregated but still filled with ethnic enclaves, go to Toronto, Ontario. You’ll have a blast seriously. It’s a lot like Chicago but more Modern and not as socially segregated or as prejudiced. There’s still racism but Canadians hide it and keep it to themselves. There’s not just interrracial dating there’s also interracial socializing in general without much issues. If they keep it up it will be like Montparnesse in terms of diversity and quality of life.
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I left Chicago ca. 1982. A decade of being treated like a whore by that racist city for living on what it considered the wrong side of the color line left me traumatized.
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One of my gay uncles was friends with a Lithuanian Woman who went to beauty school with him and the CPD would always harass her and ask what she was doing in the neighborhood, asking if she was a prostitute or checking her for drugs and at one point strait up saying, when she got fed up with it, “We really just don’t want you being in this area of the city.”
And she said something like, ” I like it just fine here so no need to worry and stay out of my business from now on.”
I almost got arrested as a kid in Polish Hills….for stealing a plastic bag from a grocery store that I didn’t steal because it actually belonged to me.
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@AlitaRegina
No need for paragraphs of whining
.
“The comment about antisemitism was directed at Kiwi.”—Except the comment I quoted was not about antisemitism now was it? It was you blaming black people for comments by Kiwi. It is no different than white people blaming black people for the drudge of American culture.
“ But that point and many others were clearly lost on you.”—If you think I am going to be manipulated into believing you said or meant something different than what I read, then most certainly that point is lost.
“I don’t spend as much time stalking other people’s comments as you seem to.”—I don’t do the comment stalking thing dear. I have been on here for 3 years, so I have talked and engaged in lengthy conversation with many of the regulars.
“because I see how people like you and Kiwi build people up to bring them down.”—You gathered this how? Because we agreed with you on other topics and the moment we disagreed with you here we became “slow”? I agreed to disagree, but after the constant name calling I don’t care anymore. Simple.
“That’s why you sit in the background all jeering or cheering but not making any statements except to supplant another person’s poorly constructed argument.”—The problem with this falsehood is that I actually was addressing an incorrect statement made by you not supplanting another’s argument(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/genghis-khan/#comment-284299).
“You’re just Abagond’s cheerleader on this thread anyway and it’s easy to talk from the sidelines. Every single time you make a statement you retreat back to the audience because you don’t have an argument to defend except, “Whatever Abagond says is right.””— I was addressing you before abagond even took the time to address you. So this fantasy of side lining is one that is meant to make you feel better and not one that can be shown as reality in the thread.
“But I guess debates are won by consensus rather than actual rhetoric or evidence around here”—No, you did not present any evidence. What you presented was your interpretation of the bible, koran, and did an amazing job at straw men arguments. That is all great and dandy, but it does not address or refute anything people say.
“But go on and keep talking about things I wasn’t directing at you but then acting like you don’t want to argue when I actually engage you in discussion. Because you don’t want to “rehash” or correct the flaws in your argument, or in mine because you never actually bothered to point out the flaws in my argument that you insisted I refused to admit to after I asked.”—This is a forum. People respond to inaccuracies regardless of who says it all the time. Same way Jefe and Anne responded to an inaccuracy you made on previous threads. People do it to me as well. It is part of discussion on a forum. There was no flaw in my argument to point out. You were the one that made the claims and as such you were the one that needed to prove it. You could not prove your claims at all, but I could most certainly present evidence that disputed your claims. You spend more time creating straw men arguments than you did even addressing much of what I said. I even put it very plain for you on open thread the very flaws in your argument that you claim I did not. You just refuse to acknowledge it and as such there is nothing I can do for YOUR problem.
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@AlitaRegina
Ahhh. More posts assuming what I said or believe. Must be nice to live in such fantasies.
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@Sharinalr
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“I don’t do the comment stalking thing dear. I have been on here for 3 years, so I have talked and engaged in lengthy conversation with many of the regulars.”
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You don’t? Because that was the first thing you ever asked me:
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@Maria
I hope you don’t mind me secretly stalking your posts. I have not commented, but I most certainly am reading them.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-278940
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If you don’t even remember your own words you can scarcely remember mine well enough to argue. And that’s not what you’re not doing anyway. If you were arguing you would be accurate and you would be using at least a modicum of logic and reasoning.
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@Linda KC
“I guess it doesn’t come through to you, but the message I’ve gotten really strongly, repeatedly, is that our story is of no relevance. I’ll get real excited and want to say, ‘hey, this that happened to us totally corroborates what happens to you,’ and the response I get very frequently is that I’m trying to DISMISS??? what’s happened to Black people. That’s what I keep hearing. Over and over and over again. I think you’ve been around when you’ve seen me slammed, or maybe it was too much reading and you missed it.”—I have seen it. I did not agree with it and I have stepped in because I felt those individuals were trying to make some example of you. I understand the need to have a validation of collaboration that what you going through it just not you going crazy. A connection to people with similar issues.
Black people in general really see it as you can escape. They will always be black, but you can escape and they is really their mindset. Plus they are constantly reminded of how non-black people carry similar anti-black attitudes. On top of that it is as you say…. The media and government lies makes it hard for people to really know the truth. Black people are just learning the truths of themselves thanks to youtube and rising technology, but even they are still lost and until they find themselves and the truth their is no real way for them to connect to others.
I have always been raised around diversity, so I often give a pass to others under similar struggles, but I know that is not easy for all blacks.
“Sharinair, no this isn’t just run-of-the-mill similarities of oppressed people, there IS something special here. We’re hated the same way by the same kind of haters, those po’ white trash Croatian Klanners. In the same time frame. The same stereotypes. Same qualities. Same quirks. Same terrors. It’s phenomenal. We ARE mirrors, and the fact that it’s in Black and White makes it all the more special. We completely corroborate each other, and our specialties complement each other.”—I am learning, but it has been a long road.
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Because we agreed with you on other topics and the moment we disagreed with you here we became “slow”?
There’s that “we” again. What are you referring to? Because if it’s my use of the term “oversimplification” that is what you basically me to do. Since you don’t like reading paragraphs of whining,
except for when you ask to secretly stalk my posts.
Keep in mind, you asked to read my posts but when I oversimplifed them as you requested so as not to “rehash(settle a discussion without having to actually argue any points)” you felt insulted when that was exactly what you asked to do?
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@Alita
You are getting desperate.
You pulled a comment that proves I was stalking yours, but your claim is me stalking others. Not only that you pulling it proves you were going through old comments to try and find it. Says what about you?
“If you don’t even remember your own words you can scarcely remember mine well enough to argue.”— I don’t have to remember your words when I can just quote them. Which I did. Which I refuted. Which is why you are whining.
“And that’s not what you’re not doing anyway. If you were arguing you would be accurate and you would be using at least a modicum of logic and reasoning.”—-You know if you repeat a lie enough it will not make it true. Especially seeing as this started as a simple correction of your inaccuries not mine. When you say modicum of logic or reason do you mean like you didn’t?
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@sharinalr
You pulled a comment that proves I was stalking yours, but your claim is me stalking others. Not only that you pulling it proves you were going through old comments to try and find it. Says what about you?
Yes. Its says that I have a better memory than you do. I can remember your words better than you can.
I’m not at all sorry if that offends you. You did write them after all. And the term “posts” was plural and you at least skimmed what I wrote and felt the need to respond so you were stalking my posts, as you had told me previously on the Open Thread you were in the process of doing and were going to continue doing.
And I said sure because I can’t control what your eyes or your fingers do. I just make note of those things.
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@sharinalr
“I have seen it. I did not agree with it and I have stepped in because I felt those individuals were trying to make some example of you. I understand the need to have a validation of collaboration that what you going through it just not you going crazy. A connection to people with similar issues.”
Yes, Sharina did speak up for me when I was being ganged up on by half a dozen people simultaneously. And I appreciated it.
I seem to keep the lights on around here. That thread got to be over 200 pages long, most of it people attacking me, mangling what I was saying so I could serve as stand-in for a white troll, so I’d try to explain yet again, only to be attacked again, then I was getting attacked for taking the thread off-topic. I was taking it off topic? And I have to admit that Abagond did eventually call that digression into a debate about me to be off-topic.
Then a few weeks later he did a post about the willfully obtuse. That’s become one of my favorite new phrases. LOL.
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@sharinalr
I don’t have to remember your words when I can just quote them. Which I did. Which I refuted.
You contradicted yourself about the stalking:
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I hope you don’t mind me secretly stalking your posts. I have not commented, but I most certainly am reading them.https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-278940
“I don’t do the comment stalking thing dear. I have been on here for 3 years, so I have talked and engaged in lengthy conversation with many of the regulars.”https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/genghis-khan/#comment-284599
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and you didn’t refute what I said in the above instance. You just contradicted yourself and you keep saying you refuted what I said as if that will make true.
I’m be otherwise occupied until you get all your feelings out and get satisfied with what you failed to accomplish and then get tired of gloating about what didn’t you didn’t do.
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@Alita
You may try to be coy, but try these acts when you do not present comments to the contrary in such close proximity. Here is the “we” per your comment. ..”because I see how people like you and kiwi build people up and bring them down.”
“Keep in mind, you asked to read my posts but when I oversimplifed them as you requested so as not to “rehash(settle a discussion without having to actually argue any points)” you felt insulted when that was exactly what you asked to do?”—-Again where did I ask to read them? Please quote where I asked you to oversimplify anything?
You stated: Did I over simplify that enough for you so you don’t have to do so much reading on what is essentially an electronic messages board?
I stated: You could have written it anyway you like. My points still remain the same and you still have not refuted them.
As to the rehash: Now if you wish to rehash at this point then I will copy and paste my points Again in response so as to avoid wasting time.
The thing is you were not arguing points. You were simply presenting straw men and using ad hominems.
Yet memory or no you still had to rummage through 1 comment dating back weeks or months.
Trust me love. I am not offended. This is just part 4 of the imaginary feeling you want to pretend I have to make you feel better. Please feel free to copy and paste any of my comments you find. 🙂
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@Alita
take a breather. You are acting a little cray cray.
“and you didn’t refute what I said in the above instance. You just contradicted yourself and you keep saying you refuted what I said as if that will make true.”—-I never claimed I did. You are holding on to a comment I made to you (which I have yet to deny) to claim I regularly stalk people and their comments. You are reaching and it is just sad.
“I’m be otherwise occupied until you get all your feelings out and get satisfied with what you failed to accomplish and then get tired of gloating about what didn’t you didn’t do.”—-Projection is an evil thing.
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@Linda KC
“when I was being ganged up on by half a dozen people simultaneously.”—-It was that many? I did not bother to count. I just thought it was unfair and even more so when you were made off-topic and one commenter continued.
Even if you don’t agree, do you see where other people of color are coming from?
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“Even if you don’t agree, do you see where other people of color are coming from?”
Nope. I’m being willfully misperceived for corrupt reasons. As I said. It is revenge. When you’re around people who despise dealing with people who are willfully obtuse and that’s exactly the way they’re treating you, it’s really obvious. Revenge. They’re lashing out at you, venting their frustrations on you because you’re handy. Not because you deserve it. And it’s quite useless. It does not heal them, and it leaves you in need of some healing yourself.
Like Kiwi saying yesterday that he’s tired of me talking down to black people like they’re children.
He supplied the word ‘down.’ That’s nowhere in my personna. I keep talking myself blue in the face that my pov is that of someone crawling up after falling off the edge of the world, but nobody hears that, they just see and they go for it.
If I were a 62 y.o. grandma who’d raised four children of color and I was sounding a bit maternal and I was Black, nobody would even notice it. It would just be taken as natural. But the nature of racism is to take natural things and make them unnatural. And it seems virtually every American drawing breath jumps on that abnormal thinking whenever it is convenient. Everybody.
Oh but here we have somebody using the word ‘revenge’ in connection with PofC and voila, we have a racist talking about White fantasies of Black Vengeance. No, this is a momma telling you to set up straight in your chair and act right.
And Alita is right. This is the internet, people are uninhibited, playing out a fantasy life. In real life, I would be treated with respect. There’d be people under the age of 30 calling me ‘momma’, just because they’re friends of my children. And if they sat down at my kitchen table to chat they’d be asking me for advice and if I gave it to them it would never occur to them I was condascending them as a White person. How bizarre.
But online I can talk myself blue in the face telling people that’s who I am, but do I get an opportunity to talk about my ideas (which I think can be some fairly original thinking from certainly a unique perspective) and have them heard accurately and entertained constructively? He’ll no. I am denied.
I’ve got people thinking they’re going to put me in my place. Well, they are entirely out of line in what they think my ‘place’ is and I WILL correct that.
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Correction: “but nobody hears that, they just see and they go for it”
Should be
“but nobody hears that, they just see (brushes cheek with back of hand) and they go for it”
“Oh but here we have somebody (brushes cheek with back of hand) using the word ‘revenge’ in connection with PofC and voila,”
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@Linda KC
I can’t speak for Kiwi. So I won’t, but I learned a long time ago to never set yourself into believing that people will only lash out because they are online. You never know online people personally to know what they will say or do. It makes us feel better to say that and that is all. People are crazy these days for certain.
I will read the comment in question and give my fair opinion. Just don’t chew my head off if it is not in line with what you want to hear.
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@sharinalr
“People are crazy these days for certain.”
Things are spiraling out of control and I’m seeing things from where I sit that I think are valid. I see people who have historically been allies to Black America being blown off with great gusto and I can’t see that as anything but irrational and terrifying. If you go, I go, and if that trend continues, this population becomes more and more isolated and endangered. And that’s speaking as someone who used to be endangered but is now extinct.
You only have to look at the mistakes we made to see they’re being made here and now. Now, is all that I’m saying just sounding like a White person talking down to Black people? (As the goal post shifts, at one point on that aforementioned over-long thread, the stereotype was that White family members never warn their Black family about White racism, but now that that’s what is going on, someone will pipe up with some other way to discredit and disrespect said White person. Just wait and watch. It will commence any moment now. Let’s see what sound byte they concoct.)
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@Linda Keres Carter
I have not read through yet, but here is a bit of what bothered me.
What I personally took from your threads when you do lash out is to lash out at black people. Even in situations where you are talking to one black person or a non-black person it seems to become the need to tell black people how it is.
It is okay that you and abagond disagree on the definition of racism. I also don’t agree with your definition of racism and see it more as a form of ethnic cleansing, but that is okay. It does not mean I think what was done is any less wrong. Or any less serious. But that does not justify in my mind the need to basically bash black people. Tell them what they need to do to fix this or that. I get that to you you come off as being helpful. Giving advice. That is not what it comes off as to others.
This is not to say i disagree with what you are saying, but it is to say why is it when non-black people say or do something then the response is always to bash black people? Blame black people? It is a d*mned if we do d*mned if we don’t thing. We are chastised for not defending others, we are chastised for speaking against what we don’t agree with, and we are chastised for being to dark to be the norm. We get the short end of the stick from all sides for things that are not of our control or have nothing to do with us. Yet we are expected yo just take it.
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@Kiwi
Eastern Europeans in general particularly Russians be packing a lot of equipment in my experience. But supposedly the biggest d.cks in Europe actually belong to the French. I would not be surprised if that was true by the way most of them act but I was never tempted to find out from first hand experience.
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Mainly because it’s not the size of the boat that matters but the motion in the ocean, if knowledgeable people get my meaning and by completely unscientific vote the best European lovers are said to be either the Italians or the Spanish. But everyone has a different idea of what constitutes a good lover, because that’s a personal preference and a socially constructed idea as well. I just know I never had any complaints about Polish, Greek or Russian men. French people are big d.cks, because it’s a part of their national identity so I wouldn’t be surprised if they had big d.cks but that’s not very important to me so I never answered that question for myself.
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“I genuinely am curious to know whether Serb men are stereotyped as having large penises. I’m not trying to be facetious. I actually am trying to see if you understand what I’m asking.”
LOL I have picked up from my friend in Belgrade (a woman) an irritation with the way Serbian men are seen as superman studs by other European women, who can be fixated on them. But I’ll have to ask her if it gets that specific. Although that may be a difficult question to pose. LOL
I spent some time surfing forums filled with Croatian trolls where I could hear what they said about us. There was a news item about a young Serbian husband who had just lost his wife and he was so unbalanced by the loss that he had a replica of her vagina engraved on her headstone. It made headlines all over Europe. So one of the trolls pipes up and says, “Those Serbs are such animals. Somebody should do away with them.”
In our case, the minority Serbs, they already have.
I don’t know if you can hear me, but I was traumatized by that stereotype. I was an 18 year old girl, in 1970, in Chicago (bigot capital of the world IMO) getting blasted that that’s what I wanted in life. The racism directed at a non-compliant White female aligning herself with a Black male portrays her as a pervert into bestiality, and it’s all about the BBC. It’s very humiliating. Totally below the belt, literally below the belt. And being shamed like that all the time and there’s nothing you can say or do.
And what I learned in the next ten years is that virtually ALL white people think it. I could just feel it walking into a room. They didn’t even have to say anything. They knew what I wanted. They still know. That hasn’t changed, and will be one of the last stereotypes to go IMO. Who’s going to confront it? Actually, there is a girl on youtube who has a rant “I married my husband for his penis.”
I was so touchy about it I’d be gratified if it wasn’t what was going on. I’d want to shout at the world, “SEE, I told you that’s not what I want!!” Of course, I could never say that, so it’s just one of those things you gotta suck up. So to speak.
And, of course, that’s one stereotype you’ll never see Black men protesting. You’re never going to see a brother get up on a soapbox and proclaim, “Not me!!!”
I’ll go ask Nada about the world view on Serbian penises. I remember hearing my brother bragging, but that’s not the issue. Not what they think, but what OTHER people think.
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Um… I’m not sure that penis size knows anything about national borders. My guess in that you’d find in general that larger men (of any culture) would have larger members, in proportion to their body sizes. At any rate that would be a thing that would be very difficult (if not impossible) to verify, in any case.
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OFF TOPIC: penis size.
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Definitely an topic for the my adventures in porn thread.
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@Linda KC
So far from what I have read I had no major qualms with what you said. I saw your comments as your experience until here:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/genghis-khan/#comment-284304
What do you consider black culture? Black Americans don’t have their own culture. They have been stripped of their culture and follow American culture.
As a side note, the incidents you speak of are not just isolated to black Americans. Blacks in Africa seem to have it much worse based on the links Linda provided in open thread.
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@sharinalr
“I had no major qualms with what you said. I saw your comments as your experience until here:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/genghis-khan/#comment-284304”
And this is how I experience your reaction to that. I can live in a space for a lifetime and I can have many intense experiences, some very unjust. And I can have a perfectly good mind, and be basically a good person capable of worthwhile insights. But I have no space within that to express what I feel and think about it. I must remain silent, in the background, a presence that’s tolerated as long as I remain useful. Or maybe I will find a few times when I can express myself one-on-one, only to discover that all that is appropriated, and I am discredited and shunned if I complain.
That’s exactly what my grandmother experienced being around those Croatians she ‘passed’ to be around. She did not escape her identity, she confirmed it. Is that all my life will have been about, to be a genocided person with nowhere to go, nowhere to be a real human being living a real life?
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@Linda Keres Carter
You can express what you feel. You have always expressed what you feel. Silence is like death.
“Is that all my life will have been about, to be a genocided person with nowhere to go, nowhere to be a real human being living a real life?”—No, but if that is all you want to make your life about then that is all it will be. At some point you have to realize that is not your life right now. Finding yourself can be empowering, but constantly reminding yourself what has been taken from you will pull you down. One thing I love about my black brothers and sisters is regardless of all odds. Regardless of the endless racism, they still move on. They beat the statistics, even when more come out to slant it against them. They are strong.
When you come off as “Not listening to me is falling into their trap.” (not saying those are your exact words) Then you are making it about you and your feelings and less about the issues. It is the same way I feel about the black middle class preaching respectability politics to poor blacks because whites make them feel embarrassed by them. Unity can only happen if their is understanding and support. Not dictatorship and hurt feelings. Yes some people will not listen, but badgering them about the big mistakes they make for not doing it the way black middle class or even non-white allies think it should be done will not help.
If some Asians invited me to a rally to support racial bias. I am not going to go in there guns blazing telling them that because I am black that I know how to deal with racial discrimination better than them. I am going to listen, I am going to offer up my experience on what I know, and I am going to support. While the outcome may affect me. It is not about me.
That is just my take, but if you feel strongly about speaking then do speak. But when critics come you either have to take them head on or ignore them. Just don’t go silent or stop listening.
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When I was on the high school debate team we were taught that the first order of business is to define terms. If we could not agree on the definition of the terms being debated, the debate could not proceed.
I’ve experienced something wonderful on this thread, because someone showed up who could hear accurately what I was saying. She was able to do so for two reasons. First, because of her relationship with her grandma, she knew quite well that someone could look white but that might have nothing to do with who they really were. Secondly, she understands that ‘racism’ as we call it here is a complex system that exists in many forms worldwide. There are variations in its execution and response, but substantially it does the same things to the same kinds of people, even in Europe. Actually, especially in Europe, at least in the 20th century.
What I see here and in the rest of my life experiences is that the further someone is from those two concepts the less likely they are able to ‘hear’ what I say. I’ll say one thing, but another thing is heard. They are imagining what someone ‘white,’ according to their experience and expectations will say and that’s what they’ll hear. It’s always cold water in my face and the older I get the more cold intolerant I become.
I see this in your analogy about attending an Asian rally — your imagination jumped to a situation in which you were a newcomer into a situation where you knew how to politely defer to the people whose rally it was. Your imagination did not take you to a situation in which you’ve lived as part of an Asian-American family for forty years, raised a bi-racial family, were fluent in the language and literature and history, and most importantly, were from a heritage with a very similar experience of persecution and injustice. That culture is now extinct, so you’ve found a similar one to adopt. After all that, you had some opinions, based on that long life experience and thought, that you wished to express.
Your analogy says it all. I will always be seen as a foreigner, a newcomer, an outsider. It’s of no consequence how long or how intense my ‘conversion’ is. There will never be a ‘naturalization’ process because this is not a natural social system. What I want to challenge is, who is it that’s now enforcing this unnatural-ness?
Let me make one more point. If your worldview does not admit the possibility that someone who looks White may think anything but and that racism only applies to people of color then every white person you ever know in your life will more than likely present as a racist, or at best someone who can never understand you. I know this because no one with those assumptions I’ve ever come across has ever been able to accurately understand what I was thinking, and readily interprets what I say as racist, whenever they feel like it.
If someone can see me that way, they can see anybody that way. And they WILL see anyone that way. You are dooming yourself to a lifetime of relentlessly racist experiences. Nothing else can ever happen. It could hit you slam in the face and you would not know it. You will see the opposite. On top of that, you will be helping to preserve that status quo. You are not allowing white people to be anything except racist.
I would really like someone to respond to some of the issues I raise. Could we be on the brink of events that will make the Tulsa riot look like a walk in the park? Assuming that the US was able to destroy a country and eliminate those elements most likely to oppose it while making it look like it was innocent and humanitarian, is it possible that it is maneuvering itself to covertly do the same thing to some troublesome elements of the Black American population? Could it have motivation to do such a thing? Could the things that are happening here and now be part of such a long-term objective?
I think this is something important to discuss, but if we just want to worry that ol’ white lady about whether or not she has a right to be here, I guess that’s all we’ll do.
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@Linda KC
I will respond to each one of your points later, but what you fail to realize is from my point of view it is not about you being white or even white looking. Minus the rowdy bunch from prior, I don’t think any in here care that you look white.
Though many will address a white mindset regardless of skin color.
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“Do you find Linda KC’s suggestion that nonwhite commenters would have agreed with her on the definition of racism simply if she were also nonwhite to be condescending?”
That’s not what I think. Those two issues are separate. I think that when people get their white filters going, they can’t hear me. I think that if we can’t agree on the definition of racism there’s no point debating it.
And what I FEEL when people comment on what FEELS to me like racism, like you know, like sending your kin up smokestacks because you’re racial undesirables, and they say it isn’t racism, I FEEL offended and slighted. Like someone who doesn’t matter. That’s how I FEEL, I’ll always FEEL that way and there’s really nothing more to be said about this.
Where’s Alita? If she’s not around, this place just depresses me.
I’ve spilled my gut again and the response is lame. Never mind. This is hopeless.
Willfully obtuse.
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@ Linda Keres Carter
No one said or implied that “sending your kin up smokestacks because you’re racial undesirables, and they say it isn’t racism.” This has already been pointed out to you, at least TWICE:
This is the THIRD time. At least.
YOU are the one who is not listening.
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“Any reader paying close attention can see I didn’t say the Ustasha weren’t racist, let alone mention them. I said the Ottomans weren’t racist. This is probably the fifth time I’ve said it. I’m surprised you are still unable to understand such a simple point.
Serbs who converted to Catholicism were still massacred by Croats. Serbs who converted to Islam were spared by Turks (based on what you said). Do you see the difference?”
I didn’t see this post, sorry. Actually, you’re talking about events separated by centuries. Ustasha goals were to kill a third, convert a third, and chase a third off. In fact, they were luring people into churches for ‘conversions’ then killing them in there. Very gross. That’s WWII. Ottoman coercions or temptations to convert were for the purposes of subverting the culture and creating two classes, one slave, the other slave-driver. They were not ‘sparing’ anyone. It was simply their oppression strategy. So, you may not be intending it, but you are leaving the inference that Islam is more civilized. Why do we need to say any Imperialist is nicer than another? They’re all a–holes.
But, I guess we’re getting somewhere if we’re admitting of white on white racism. Oh I know, somebody’s going to go scurrying looking for my accounts of the Turkish blood we unwillingly absorbed and the perception of us as ‘mongrels’ as a result, but that’s just window dressing.
The real story of Croatian homicidal hatred of Serbs is much more interesting. Not only are Croats and Serbs fundamentally the same race, they’re like related tribes. Like the Lakota and the Dakota. Nonetheless, the hatred of Croats towards their Serb minority was psychologically very akin to the psychology of po’ white trash Klanner’s hatred of Jim Crow blacks. And both the Ottomans and the Austrian Empires played equal roles in the creation of that psychology. So, if Ottomans are not racist they sure know the racism game really, really well. And the lines are so blurred in distinguishing the two. I can’t really see what the value is in making that distinction. To me it just obscures variants on that game that should not be overlooked.
Rebecca West in the thirties remarked on the virulent scapegoating she saw of Croats towards Serbs. It was ludicrous. Newly liberated, really, from centuries of bondage, nobody, Serb or Croat, was exactly Type A and screw ups were routine in all services, but whenever Croats screwed up their apology was: “I just don’t know how that happened. That’s not how we do things. Not like those Serbs.” And when you have average people colluding with that mindset it makes the whole culture guilty of the racism that commences on the despised group by the lunatic-fringe-haters.
I don’t know if I described what the Croats went through with the Austro-Hungarians. They lived in abject peonage for centuries, with stories of Hungarian lords chasing naked Croats with dogs for sport. And they never did fight their own war of liberation, the empire simply fizzled out and left them free. So, all the emotional damage of that experience found no closure. It got funneled into scapegoating.
So both Serbs and Croats were recovering from the symptoms of the ‘slave mind’ wreaked on them by their respective ‘owners.’ I want to argue that the po’ white trash in the US south were also suffering from it. Most of them were peons too. Isn’t what tips the scales so that an oppressed group becomes scapegoaters — they’re given the illusion that they are not the victims of racism, but can rather join the racist club? And that’s one of the reasons I am so passionate about challenging narrow definitions of racism. It enables the subverting of a slave population into an oppressor population if their slavery is dismissed and denied.
I suppose it would seem that I”m not hearing you. That’s what happens when you don’t agree on the definition of the premise being debated. But what I’m complaining about my statements being misconstrued because I’m presumed not to be a peer in this discussion, but an ‘other’ with ‘other’ opinions is valid. Who’s ever challenged that before? Of course I meet resistance, But I AM a peer and I’m hoping to eventually luck up with people who can deal with that and I can dialogue instead of debate. This is tiring with little gain.
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@Kiwi
“I’ve known Serb Muslims who never denied their ethnicity nor ever came across as trying to pass as Turks or pander to them. Muslims can be of any race or ethnicity.”
What I was describing about the brainwashed kidnapped boys who became goons to oppress their parent population happened during basically ante-bellum times (concurrent for us both) so today it’s just like it is here. Normal people trying to live normal lives.
I asked my friend, Nada, the journalist in Belgrade, about Muslims living in Serbia. Her replies were very interesting.
I asked her, ‘I’m sure there are Moslems living in Serbia. What do they call themselves? What do others call them? What’s the correct terminology and what’s their social, economic, political status like?’
“There is a Muslim religious community of Serbia. [very small, .4% of population] There are the areas of Serbia inhabited by Muslim populace of Serbian and Albanian origins. In fact, they are the remnants of Ottoman rule in Balkans. Most of time they called themselves Muslims of Serbian/Croatian origins. But Tito gave them the status of nation and they become one of Yugoslav nations living in most of republics: Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia….After dismemberment of Yugoslavia they insist to be called Bošnjaci (Boshnyaks) [Bosniaks]. In the same time they develop special relations with Turkey, which is trying to return into Balkans, under USA protection.” [Re-colonizing Serbia.]
I asked her how they would refer to themselves.
“Re-branding Slavic Muslims as Boshnyaks, and Serbian language as Boshnyaks’ [one language is supposedly now three — very contrived] is part of political program aiming to separate some areas of Serbia to future Muslim state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, under USA and Turkish protection.Turkish leader Erdogan in his political speeches in Turkey calls them Balkan Turks.
I can only say that the way someone calls them (Serbian Muslims or Boshnyaks of Serbia) illustrates loyalty to Serbia or to Turkey backed by USA.”
It looks like the people you encountered were loyal to their country.
I commented that I looked up the demographics on WIKI re the Balkans and the percentage of Moslems in Serbia did not change from before the war till now. She replied:
“Non of them was expelled or persecuted during Yugoslav war
Many of Muslims from Bosnia, including family members of Muslim war leaders, took refuge in Belgrade during Bosnian war (against the Bosnian Serbs).” [Bosniak military men in Bosnia sent their families to Belgrade, Serbia for safety.]
I looked up some more demographics and it confirmed what I’d heard. The only population that was really impacted in all the reports of genocide were the minority Serbs of Croatia. The people lambasted by US media propaganda as genociders were in fact the victims of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Croatia (scroll down to “Population of Croatia according to ethnic group 1948-2011. After losing a fourth of our numbers just before 1948 we were at 15%, Now it’s 4.5% and declining (old population). 400,000 Serbs lost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina With all the media hype about the violence in Sarajevo (much now understood contrived by US and Bosniak politicians the number show much less drastic change in the population than in Croatia, with its loss of Serbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia 106,000 Croats are no longer in Serbia. I read of a number of land exchanges in which Croats in Serbia sold their land to Serbs in Croatia. Generally, the deals were very lopsided with the Serbs getting much less in the bargain.
This is what’s freaking me out. I hear people here talking about a possible race war and they seem to be envisioning vigilantes in bedsheets as opponents. And what I’m seeing is huge control of the media, able to manipulate and distort on a massive scale with the willingness to inflict huge losses on innocent people that no one will know about till decades later. And all anybody wants to talk about is whether or not I have a right to talk about this.
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OFF TOPIC: Serbs. Croatians and Turks except as they relate to the Mongols.
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the comments on this post were very interesting and informative
you have and an interesting running dialogue between two females one black one white
and two males one black one asian
the females comments are long and multiple the males short and fewer
then there is the content – among the many by the black female
is the loni anderson comment revealing how she was/is actually a light skined /less melanin pigmented /albinic
(probably do to previous generations of rape by white/albinic males and females esp during slavery) african
american,
who was found at a brotheral by burt rynolds who made her appear white/albinic to publicly marry her and all thier
childern where adopted and the relationship was abusive.
lot of interesting detail I hadn’t known about or eve considered.
she scores again with a link showing the film Taken was based on a lie,serveral actually.
third score
“He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.”
(Exodus 21:16)
actual verse differs slightly from my king james version of holy bible downloaded as pdf
“and He that stealeth a man, and sellah him or if he is found in his hand,he shall surely be put to death.”
(Exodus 21:16)
as an african american living in america all my life and being imersed and continually bombarded with the
christain narrative its interesting that this is the first I’ve heard of this bible verse!
which aids to my continually evolving philosophical position of atheism,
not only are the ideas of all religions false ,but they are irrelevant to how thier members actually conduct themselves.
aside
many times in reading abagonds blog its not so much his posts ,but the commentators and thier comments that are
sometimes the most interesting and informative(not that he does not have interesting and informative posts and comments as well.)
despite the post and the running dialogue it was this biblical reference that stuck in my mind and kept nagging me
to revisit this post and its comments.
And it happens again and again and I doubt anyone can predict who when or where this may occur I seen it just as much with racist trolls(or offended antagonistic commentors) as with the most astute and respected regular.
as to who “won” this debate in the dialogue I’d say if the goal was to inform and provide interesting and entertaining reading – all participants.
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@Linda KC
Sorry it took me so long to respond.
“Let me make one more point. If your worldview does not admit the possibility that someone who looks White may think anything but and that racism only applies to people of color then every white person you ever know in your life will more than likely present as a racist, or at best someone who can never understand you. I know this because no one with those assumptions I’ve ever come across has ever been able to accurately understand what I was thinking, and readily interprets what I say as racist, whenever they feel like it.”—YOU are making it about you being white. You feel that anytime a person does not agree with your terms or your idea that they are against you because you are white. You need to remove that idea that “it’s because I’m white” before you can really move on to any real discussion about anything. I am sure you have had your share of black people flatly dismissing you on that basis, but I am straightly telling you I don’t care about your skin color. Being a white minded person just means the mindset and does not apply to the skin color. You are allowing your skin color to be the focal point and ignoring areas where you are wrong and why people are explaining why.
“You are not allowing white people to be anything except racist.”——That is your assumption and I explained to you several times why your assumption is wrong. You can not be a true ally if you are white minded. Regardless of skin color. Also why must it be “listen to me or you are doomed” ?
“I would really like someone to respond to some of the issues I raise. Could we be on the brink of events that will make the Tulsa riot look like a walk in the park? Assuming that the US was able to destroy a country and eliminate those elements most likely to oppose it while making it look like it was innocent and humanitarian, is it possible that it is maneuvering itself to covertly do the same thing to some troublesome elements of the Black American population? Could it have motivation to do such a thing? Could the things that are happening here and now be part of such a long-term objective?”—Could be though I suspect the goal is to wipe black people from history period. Once black groups become mixed or flat out white etc.
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@Kiwi
“Do you find Linda KC’s suggestion that nonwhite commenters would have agreed with her on the definition of racism simply if she were also nonwhite to be condescending?”—This is what I don’t get. Why do people believe they are only getting so much flak simply because they are white? Linda has been in here enough to see thwack get a great deal of flak and he claimed to be black. It just boggles my mind, but I d see how that can be see as condescending.
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kiwi said
“Because they see people of color as a monolith and not just as a collection of individuals. ”
Do you see what I mean, Sharina? You were supposedly talking about me, but just like that it turns into ‘they.’ He just spoke about me as a ‘they.’ He just grouped me in with all of those Western European/American people who just destroyed our culture and sent us into extinction, our enemies. And he does it blithely and thoughtlessly with no concern at all how it might make me feel. I am an object. I am not real. My words don’t stand on their own merit. They are thrown into the vat of dreck you’ve heard from white people all your life and that’s how you hear me. And I could tell you a million times that White Americans are here [hit your right hand on the table] and Black Americans are here [hit your Left hand on the table] and us ghetto Serbs are here [stretch your left hand out so far you fall off the chair] and you’ll never understand what I’ve just said.
You jumped on me, Sharina, when I used the term ‘Black culture.’ If you saw me as an equal, as a women of color, you would have taken the context of what I was saying and understood without a thought what I was referring to. But I said it, and you wouldn’t extend me that courtesy. That goes on constantly.
What do you think that’s been like all these years? Who people like us, I’m talking about you and me, are isn’t about how we look. It’s how we think, how we feel, who we’re loyal to, and that’s ingrained after all these centuries. It doesn’t go away. It’s not supposed to. It’s what makes people like us special.
The same administration, the same President who instigated the mass incarceration of Black Americans (Bill Clinton) also instigated the race war that sent my people into extinction. We have the same enemy, but the reason we are extinct is that no one can imagine that that’s the case. We’ve been cut a-loose. And now we’re history. The people who produced Tesla are gone. And I’m just a ghost. Nobody sees me.
They see a White woman. And they lecture me about my privileges as such.
Remember Trojan Pam? Just google ‘linda keres carter’ and this will come up on the first page.
http://truthseeker24info.blogspot.com/2014/11/sister-trojan-pams-excellent-advice.html
I keep saying this over and over. I’ve lived on the Black side of America for 40 years. I had nowhere else to go where there were people who were familiar to me, that I could care about. But I’m still seen as a foreigner, a stranger, not to be trusted. And I could martyr myself to make it plain who I was loyal to, and it would still go un-noticed and dismissed.
I was cast adrift in a foreign land with no idea who I was, and the people in that foreign land that I recognized and devoted myself to will never recognize me. And that’s a knot of frozen need that will likely never thaw. No one will ever take the time to attend to it. I’ve spent a lifetime paying attention to people I understand very well — you have no idea how instinctively devoted we are to our own — people have flourished under my hand, but it does not appear that will ever be returned. I keep waiting, I keep asking and still I wait.
I’m supposed to. I’m supposed to challenge you like this. It’s important. Yes, ‘they’ are likely also dreaming of making ‘history’ of ghetto Blacks. Now that their cover has been blown with the new form of slavery (mass incarceration) they’ll be restricted from making a profit off of the ghetto people, and that means they will go from being chattel to being vermin, and no one survives that status very long. And ‘they’ are so slick, no one will even know they’re the ones who did it.
Just look at what happened to us.
And now, as Thwack would say, ‘WTF is that White woman rambling on about?’
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@Linda Keres Carter
“You jumped on me, Sharina, when I used the term ‘Black culture.”—-I asked you what you meant by the term black culture. Here is the comment (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/genghis-khan/#comment-284690) with the question mark as well as my idea that blacks don’t have a specific culture outside of American culture. If asking you questions is jumping on you then you are really out of touch.
“If you saw me as an equal, as a women of color, you would have taken the context of what I was saying and understood without a thought what I was referring to. But I said it, and you wouldn’t extend me that courtesy. That goes on constantly.”—-I ask people constantly what they mean by things (woman of color or not). If I was not extending you some type of courtesy I wouldn’t have bothered to ask you a question to begin with. I would have just proceeded to bash you without merit. You assume and fantasize immensely that your treatment is based on your skin color alone. That type of delusional thinking is what keeps you isolated from conversations more so than what you say in general. Using trojan Pam and Thwack to confirm what you already think is not helping in the slightest. Especially when neither of them are here and you are talking to people who are trying to understand you in some way or another. You isolate yourself. Then you blame the black people. My question to you is….what do black people in general have to do with the black person or people that gave you the idea that you are not equal to them?
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Also Linda a thousand times over I get what happened to your people, but you need to stop using that as a means to deflect from some issues here. One being your obsession with people not listening to you because you are white even after being told that is not an issue.
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“The presumptuousness in this statement alone is just downright condescending and arrogant.”
Do you want me to go flip through this blog and see how many times someone of color has used that phrase, “black culture,” and no one had any difficulty understanding what was being said? No, you go do it. Go find an instance when Abagond used that phrase, and somebody took him to task that he was stereotyping Black people. Go ahead. Or go listen to Boyce Watkins and see how many times he uses the phrase and check his comments and see if anyone even noticed he used the phrase. They just understood what he was saying.
“Arrogant and condascending” I was in tears through most of what i just wrote, [falling off that chair again while nobody helps me up] Does anyone hear what I’m saying? Now we’ll have someone ridiculing a white woman’s tears like they did to me last fall on this blog.
Are you daft, Kiwi? Is that what you’d say to Chingachgook? Or would you hear him when he said he was the last of his kind? And maybe at least wonder what that must feel like.
Does anyone see what I mean? This man has delusions that I am above him speaking. And that I think I’m better than him. That is how he stereotypes me. That is ALL he can perceive and he ARROGANTLY and HYPOCRITICALLY thinks he has the right to inflict on me his frustration with people like that. It’s so gross an abuse. It is entirely irrelevant what I say to this willfully obtuse bigot. It is so WHITE of him. He is PASSING for White here. Acting like a White man. Doing to me everything he complains about The Man doing to him. How well I know this type. For all we know he has a vengeance wife. Magua.
You are a bigot. Go kick your dog. I have nothing more to say to you.
Anybody grasp what I’m saying here, or is everyone just enjoying the spectacle, maybe getting off vicariously on this man kicking what he thinks is his dog.
I come back here because I seriously want to dialogue about the terrifying issues looming large, but it ALWAYS degenerates into an attack on whether or not I have the right to speak.
Yes, I do, but I’m not bothering doing it here anymore.
Enough.
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Abagond:
This is an important point. A monstrous killer doesn’t need to be “racist” in order to be a monster. Using “racist” to refer to any sort of discriminator, oppressor, genocider, killer, etc. just dilutes the meaning of the term racism and obscures the differences between different forms of oppression/genocide/discrimination/etc. (And if you want to claim it’s a problem to project present things onto the past, using “racism” to refer to things in the past that are only very superficially analogous is definitely such a projection and obscures the differences) in history. And acknowledging they are different doesn’t mean claiming they are “less evil”. Any form of oppression IS EVIL, period.
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“Do you want me to go flip through this blog and see how many times someone of color has used that phrase, “black culture,” and no one had any difficulty understanding what was being said?”—-I actually would like you to. Perhaps those posts will give me a better understanding of what actually is black culture and how it is different from American culture as a whole.
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@ mike4ty4
Thank you! That is the very point I was trying to make to Linda KC and Alita Regina.
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Sorry, did I just read that or am I imagining it?
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@Kiwi: But could it perhaps be that what “Linda Keres Carter” goes through having negative opinions of certain groups is the same thing as when Black or other people in the USA or other White Supremacist type European colonial nations become jaded against Whites? That is, they have received Prejudice + Power discrimination against them, discrimination from a dominating group with more social power, and come to resent that more powerful group for that discrimination?
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Sorry, did I just read that or am I imagining it?
If you have been dropping LSD and smoking spliffs, maybe.
I’d like to get back to old Gengen.
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@Herneith; Glad you said said it in respect to staying on topic. IJS.
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There was no mention about religion under the Mongol Empire or of Genghis Khan himself in this post. Does anyone know more about this?
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@jefe: I read it over and over i saw no mention of religion either.
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Again LKC taking the post off topic need to take that topic about Serbs to the open thread.
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Speaking of….Netflix has an interesting tv show called Marco Polo. It centers around Kublai Khan’s court.
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I learned he was a strategic warlord. I did my own research and just watched Youtubes since i saw there was not going to be anymore discussion on this topic and seeing it veered off to something else. SMH.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Mongol_Empire
It’s a good jumping off start.
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@sharinalr: I did learn from watching Biography Network Kubla Khan was Genghis Khan grandson.
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@Herneith: Thanks for the link.
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Although he murdered about 40 million people, it is interesting to note he was tolerant of other religions. This link highlighted quite a bit of fun facts about genghis-khan.
http://www.history.com/news/history-lists/10-things-you-may-not-know-about-genghis-khan
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@Mary
Thanks for sharing. I was trying to figure out the connection. I wonder how many grandkids he had.
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Thanks for the link Herneith.
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I don’t usually use Wikipedia but it does provide a starting point as it does contain references as well.
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@sharinalr; He had many wives and he had a penchant for r**ping and pillaging he sired many children. That’s a good question there are probably hundreds of grandchildren.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_%28film%29
This was a great movie as it is in Mongolian(with sub-titles)! I have the dvd so can attest to this. Best of all? A white man doesn’t come to save Genghis! In fact, I don’t think there are any white people in this movie although the director was Russian but he looks Eurasian to me.
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I didn’t like the Netflix ‘Marco Polo’. They could have just as easily made a mini series about Genghis and his progeny. I guess there wasn’t enough white people around then to provide modern day film characters to infuse into a movie or television series. Marco Polo it is then! Personally, I would like to see a series based on Genghis Khan and his immediate descendants.
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It turns out the Director Bodrov, is Eurasian of Mongol descent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Bodrov
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@ Linda Keres Carter @ Kiwi
Comments about Serbs deleted as off topic. Take it to the Open Thread.
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I added the fact that Kublai Khan was his grandson to the post. My mistake.
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I did leave out religion, mainly because it was not a big issue for Genghis Khan.
Genghis Khan was a shamanist. He let people practise whatever religion they wanted. His part of Asia (Mongolia and northern China) in his day was a patchwork of different religions: shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam and even Christianity. The Muslims were the first people he came across who were willing to die for their religion. It surprised him.
Towards the end of his life, he did give tax preferences to Taoism – one of his top spiritual advisers was Taoist. That wound up hurting Buddhism in north-east China.
Unlike many empires, the Mongol Empire did not push a particular religion or language. Mongolian and shamanism were not spread across Eurasia. Not even Taoism. It was not like the British Empire, which wound up spreading English and Christianity.
Instead, the Mongol Empire and its peace wound up culturally benefiting the Chinese in the east and the Turks in the west.
The Mongol conquest was a body blow to the Muslim world just from its sheer destruction. But, because the Mongols mainly used Turkish generals in the west, it wound up spreading Islam and strengthening the Muslim world in the long run.
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LOL. You hijacked it. Never accepting anything I tell you, always interpreting it further and further away from what I’m telling you, maligning me ever further. Making me explain more and more about what I’m trying to say. Then twisting that. And in the end I am defined as you wish to define me, and I am ruled off topic and silenced.
Go ahead now and celebrate the achievements of Genghis Khan, so we can all know that it is not exploiters who annoy you, but exploiters who don’t let you profit in those exploits that you are offended by. As long as you can identify with the conquerors, they don’t bother you at all.
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There are about 16 million men, mostly in the lands of the old Mongol Empire, who have some of Genghis Khan’s actual genes. Probably within 1200 years most people alive will be a descendant of his.
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@Kiwi:
However I think they mentioned discriminators which were active at times after the Ottoman Empire was defunct. Also, by the same token, the British Empire and other European colonial empires are now defunct, but Racism still continues in places where they’ve made their mark, and their colonial offspring countries (US, Australia, South Africa, etc.)
@Linda Keres Carter:
However, it seems that you want to broaden the definition of “racism” very far, so that it would include almost any instance of one identifiable group feeling superior to and harming another group which is not so considered superior. Is this right? But to me this serves to obscure complexities, not reveal them. More precising definitions serve to help illuminate differences. It is true that all forms of discrimination involve some group being put up as “superior” — usually a group which wields more social power — than another, and the “superior” group then exerting prejudice against the inferior group, but the details of how that works differ between each type.
Also you complained about projecting present concepts into the past yet called Genghis Khan a racist. Racism is a concept from times more recent than Genghis Khan. One can recognize the evil in any form of oppression without equating it to “racism”.
However this doesn’t seem to make sense. First off, what minority and majority are you referring to here? The point here is that calling something “racism” is not necessary to recognize how evil it is. That Genghis Khan was not a racist by more precising definitions of racism in no way undercuts the sheer evil that was done. The problem is the misconception that “racism” is somehow inherently more evil than all other forms of discrimination, which makes no sense. Genghis Khan wasn’t “less evil” than the European colonials even if he did not use racism as a tactic for his oppressive action. The European colonials simply turned the scale up another notch, killing possibly over 100 million, maybe 200 million or more, but over a longer timescale. Indeed, the longer timescale might mean that Genghis Khan’s was somewhat more “intense” (rate of evil committed over time).
However I’m curious about this:
Which suggests that the type of discrimination you experienced could indeed be called racism even under a precising definition. I am very curious to explore this. For example, did they have ghettos, police discrimination and brutality, cops following you around, being followed in stores, mass imprisonment/punishment, etc.? Were there media stereotypes, economic exclusion, etc.?
Does this apply to Black Americans as well, if the two are “mirror images” of each other?
@AlitaRegina: How did you get so much knowledge with regards to the details of slavery and Islam, and how would you suppose someone else who is interested in getting it could get it?
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@ Abagond
“But, because the Mongols mainly used Turkish generals in the west, it wound up spreading Islam and strengthening the Muslim world in the long run.”
How so? The general opinion is that the Mongolian invasion was a devastating blow at least to Mesopotamia and that it ended the edge it had over Europe. While I think that that is an exaggeration, I can’t see how it benefitted this area. Of course one could argue that the Mongolians strengthend indirectly the Mamluk rule in Egypt because it gave the last Abbasids into their hands and they could gain legitimay by using them as puppets.
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Any way to find out if we are descendent of Genghis Khan?
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em @kiwi and all others involved in a discussion and or argument on this thread and any other.
specifically I did not mean the comentor I was referring to scored a point against you.
I meant in terms of providing info I didn’t know or suspect the was interesting and informative.
This can and does occur irregardless of the arguments among the commenters.
However in regards to the specifics of this argument I mostly agree with you and abagond, however I can’t honestly and objectly comment because
of the numerous and lengthy comments by Linda Keres Carter, which were so much so that I stopped reading said persons comments and lost interest iin what that person said.
…………………………………….
Kiwi said
@ Abagond
“Please delete my last post. I just now realized that Linda Keres Carter successfully hijacked the thread and made it about herself. I think it comes from a sense of white entitlement. “I’m white and if I don’t get the attention I deserve, I’ll throw a fit and cry white woman’s tears”.”
…………………………………..
I’ve noticed this pattern (or think I have) with numerous white commentors ,regardless of gender
very lengthy,multiple comments in which they focus on what they experience only to the exclusion of anything else and are ready able and willing to argue argue and um argue ,also name call etc
Any mention of their name results in an immediate response most of the time.
I not interested in arguing with anyone nor reading /listening to others argue.
if a person cannot reasonably discus an issue with the ability to admit when they are wrong or ignorant then I will probably ignore them unless they have something interesting to say.
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@ Kiwi
I think that was about as classic a case of White woman’s tears as this blog has seen. Unfortunately I had to delete it since it was a complete derail.
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@ Kartoffel
Yes, the Mongols were very destructive, I do not disagree with that. There was almost certainly a drop in the number of Muslims in the world. But after the dust cleared, so to speak, Islam spread throughout Central Asia and into South Asia, the work of the successor states of the Mongol Empire.
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@Kiwi
What makes this comment so hard to take seriously is that I know several non-Muslims who spent their entire lives growing up in Muslim countries and yet none of them are anywhere as close to being as Islamophobic as AlitaRegina.
They came as Westerners with Westerner Privilege and protection I’m pretty sure their impression would be different if they were poor Sudanese or Senegalese, Timorian, or Yemeni.
And what do those people have to do with YOU?
You’re confusing phobia with prejudice. I do have a prejudice against men who view as inferior or have the privilege to do that but are wont get out of my face and expect sex and affection from me. I don’t like the way Islam treats black people.
Or maybe it’s not prejudice it’s Anti Racist. Because anyone who views anyone as inferior I really tend to not be able to f.ck with for very long. Hence the reason I actually speak up IRL when I hear people say problematic things. All people, of all races.
But whatever for your phony internet warrior wannabe self.
Most of the staff members in the lab I work in are white. They make racist jokes from time to time and there was one time they started making Jewish jokes when they were informed that Jewish students from a nearby school would be visiting.
What freaked me out was not just them making Jewish jokes but that the fact that they were comfortable doing it in front of me. I was forced to tell myself, “If they’re racist against Jews, then they must also be racist against Asians.” The irony is that the lab has its fair share of Jewish and Asian staff members, which must mean that they have to tolerate it to some degree and bite their tongues so as not to incur reprisals. I also wondered what kinds of jokes they make about Asians when I’m out of earshot. I think I can already guess.
I’ve never bitten my tongue about anything in real life and I’ve gone through painful reprisals, because I’m not a coward.
You calling me Islamophobic is your immature way of saving face and it’s so dishonest as to completely destroy any credibility you have that might have made accusing me of that believable. The only people backing you up on this thread are your friends Abagond and Sharina.
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@ Mbeti
which aids to my continually evolving philosophical position of atheism,
not only are the ideas of all religions false ,but they are irrelevant to how thier members actually conduct themselves.
Godless and Black has a good post that explains my whole viewpoing on the issue and I think I mentioned that I’m agnostic leaning towards Atheism for this reason:
http://godlessandblack.blogspot.com/2009/05/islam-is-not-black-mans-religion.html
I think Islam is just as bad as Christianity not better or worse.
But we’re talking about Islam so…
I know from my experience as a black woman, Arabs(not all Muslims are Arab ) Hindus and Hispanics have this color hierarchy that makes MANY of them view black women as being constantly sexually available to them. Because that’s a tradition and viewpoint that’s been in their particular culture for centuries. And many of the ones I’ve met basically treat black women like free prostitutes in a way that most of them would never dare attempt with women from their own cultures or with White Women.
…And sadly SOME Black women who are trying to lighten up their offspring and give them less kinky hair(I’m related to one of those but whatever)
respond to favorably to that because they’re okay with being treated subserviently by people with fairer skin. I think Islam promotes and encourages that from what I’ve seen when I lived with Black Muslims.
Even the whole reason Islam spread to Africa was because of SEX SLAVERY. When raids would be done to find eunuchs and concubines and it still happens today in Africa. That’s what was going on in Nigeria, that’s what Boko Haram tried to do to these Christian Schoolgirls. Sell them into sex slavery.
I guarantee you the ones that were sold were bought by lighter or brown skinned arabic men or that would have been the eventual destination. Because me or my Muslim Afro European men could not keep those
Following Abagond and Kiwi’s logic, regarding the same thing being done to Serbs and Eastern Europeans like the Greeks, tell me how those girls converting to Islam would have bettered their situation that makes what happened to them any less cruel or evil than what Anglo Americans were doing to African Women during the age of conquest?
Even in Sudan and Darfur that was going on! Sudanese women are renowned for their beauty especially in regards to their figures. That’s why so many rapes happened there. Those Muslims, even the ones against it didn’t lift a finger to help those women, wanted to basically force those women to bear lighter skinned offspring who have African Figures.
I’m brown so men from those cultures come at me like I’m self hating welcomign to their advances and I’m not and it gets really annoying.
I don’t know how I manage to be Isalamophobic and practice Ramadan and have extensive friends and family who practice that religion. I think they’re very deluded but then so are many Christians and religious people in general and as long as they don’t attack, disrespect, or degrade other members of the Black community or women, like I saw a lot of Muslims of ALL races do( the ones I saw do the OPPOSITE are my friends.), I really have no issue with it.
But Islam is just as racist and evil as Christianity is and it’s the topic of the thread so that’s why I was going in on it.
And yes principles make strange bedfellows, but anyone who’s been to any monoracial country knows that ethnic and racial discrimination is a alive and well and it’s the same in the old world(Europe, Africa, India, Asian) it just doesn’t appear that way.
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@ mike4ty4
How did you get so much knowledge with regards to the details of slavery and Islam, and how would you suppose someone else who is interested in getting it could get it?
…Um most of it was gleaned from lots of reading, life experience especially travelling to Europe. Most of the people I met and still hang out with from Europe and Canada are African Muslims, including a girl who was my best friend for three years and just completely went off the deep end because fo that religion. We shared cultures and they told me stories recommended movies and readings.
In regards to reading Initially my focus was just learning about Africa, so a couple of the books I’m paraphrasing from are actually in French and I read them, God Knows how many years ago. But the Numbers in English and In French come from Arabic and India. Even the first dictionaries in Europe were Tri Lingual translations of Latin and Greek into what was then Old English/German/French ect.
SO at one point in my life I read a lot of history of of the 17-19th century Europe, and to learn about Catholocism or any JudeoChristian religion you learn a lot about other Abrahmic religions as well. Catholics and Protestants when you study for seminary actually tend to be very knowledgable about Judaism and Islam. The ones who study theology seriously which is sadly not enough of them and they’re not coming from a place of total ignorance.
Even the whole thing about Islam meaning submission, I actual knew because as a child I heard somewhere that Ishmael was Black. I can’t point to specifically where it says but I thought it was generally understood that Ishmael was Black. Which made me more interested in Islam and exposed me to a lot of the racism and slavery.
I thought it wasn’t that racist either because slavery was practiced on non Muslims or all races(Black,White,Asian) but real life experience and also more reading and exposure really just changed my mind Islam just as racist as Christianity(even when the slaves are white or asian and not black) because all slavery is classist and racist. It’s just how the upperstratum controls the lower stratum who tend to be dark in all cultures because they do all the manual labor. And that’s not unique to any one race it’s all humanity that lives in hierarchical societies, even some of the Indigenous Latin Americans.
Across all of the Abrahamic religions, Ishmael is considered Abraham’s Black son and which is one of the reasons that Sarah cast Hagar and him out into the desert once her son by Abraham, Issac, was born. AndHagar, which sounds very African to me, one of my African friends had a very similar sounding name, wasAbraham’s concubine. Not his wife.
That whole phenomenon of Arab men kidnapping African Women for harems and as concubines actually goes back a very long time. It’s very sad that it still goes on today but from what I’ve seen all men want Black Women’s bodies because even from an evolutionary perspective our figures are the best for childbearing. You know it’s not rocket science it’s just that everyone wants us when they want us because they don’t want to feel obligated to us they way they do to other women. We’re a “steal”. A good, submissive, dutiful, loyal, beautiful women who are effectively devoid of any social value.
This is men of all races. I’ve even seen African men that practice polygamy when they’re with black women but never with women of other races that they marry and they defend it as tradition but they’re basically practicing pimping as marriage with women of their own community and then some of them even seem proud when other races of men want to do it.
The Africans I got along best with were actually the ones who didn’t practice any Abrahamic Religion. My best friend now practices West African Voodun.
In the Koran Ishmeal is the son that Abraham sacrifices to God the difference being that Ishmael knows he’s being sacrificed and chooses to be sacrificed. Which has always stuck in my mind as being… interesting. Self Sacrifice for a worthy cause has always been area of great personal interest. It’s probably the one principle that makes me sort of subscribe to Judaeo Christian prinicples, and Im agnostic anyway, but
Some JudeoChristian principles, like the Beatitudes and the Golden Rule I mainly subscribe to because of Jesus. Not because he was a Martyr but because he was a Radical.
TLDR:
So lots of history books and Catholicism as an institution is evil but they do tend to have the best libraries. I think even the Vatican has all the books of the world or a number close to that. It helped me understand a lot of things in Catholic History like the Inquisition and the Christian Slavery that eventually became Racial( Just based on SKIN COLOR, but Europe always had slavery, that’s what being a serf was.)
And learning Latin and Greek also exposed me to a lot of African History particular in regards to Islam as well because the Moors basically brought Europe our of the Dark Ages and even in Spain now there is huge cultural resentment of Moorish rule but all of the contributions Islam made to that cultures medicine, architcture, and history.
In my life experience also I tend to gravitate more towards Black Muslims because most of the ones I met are very intelligent and they’re fun to discuss things with at least when you first meet them. But I also saw and heard a lot of things about Islam in regards to the black commmunity, like the refugee from Mauritania that I met in Montparnesse Paris, that really just make me not get how some many people give Islam a pass on it’s racism? I think people take Christian Racism for granted but ignore other cultures racism. But that’s my take.
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@Mike4ty4
So lots of history books and Catholicism as an institution is evil but they do tend to have the best libraries.
CORRECTION: Catholics have the best libraries, because they steal from everyone else, I know. But the fact remains. The best places to learn anything are religious institutions. If indoctrination, hypocrisy, fraud and child sexual abuse don’t get in the way of your education.
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@Mbeti
I guarantee you the ones that were sold were bought by lighter or brown skinned arabic men or that would have been the eventual destination. Because me or my Muslim Afro European men could not keep those
Because me or my Muslim Afro European men could not keep those men out of faces. This is whole myth about black women being considered the least desirable I would not know from lived experience. We are the one group whose beauty and femininity is the least acknowledged and respected but from what I’ve seen men don’t argue with their d.cks or their hearts.
JudeoChristian and Islamic society is what lowers black women’s socio economic worth in my experience and there’s a LOT of history to support why that is. In this particular thread me and Linda were talking about the way Islam does that to all women, particularly the kind practiced by Arabs.
In know in Eastern Islam, particlarly Indonesia the case is different, but the kind I was exposed to was hella racist, they just defined race differently that Americans do so it didn’t appear that way.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Your only “allies” in a discussion should be evidence and perspective. If the only thing backing up your viewpoint is groupies it’s not a very strong argument, as you saw.
“What is popular is not always right and what is right is not always popular.”
If the majority decided things I guess the Armenia Genocide and the Holocaust weren’t racist but Anglo American Slavery of Africans was because it was based off of skin color, even though those genocides were too and both ethnic groups were considered “darker”(swarthier) than the Ethnic Turkish and Ethnic Germans who killed all of them.
I don’t let other people decide what I think, or agree with. I disseminate information and decide for myself and I think ALL slavery is racist but please keep adding yourself, and nothing of value, to the discussion like you seem so keen to do. I can’t stop you so I’m just going to ignore you.
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Mary Burrell
I bet many of them were several years younger and probably forced into the marriage. It is odd that he would treat women in such a way considering his rough upbringing that allowed his mom to be mistreated after the poisoning of his father.
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Herneith
I found what little I saw interesting. The backstabbing and so on, but I was more confused on the purpose of Marco Polo. I agree. A series on Genghis Khan would be more interesting and beneficial.
Perhaps I should finish the series to at least give it a chance.
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@Kiwi
Why did his empire break up? Was it a result of his death or in fighting? I agree it is quite interesting how they adopted the culture of places they conquered, while white conquest expects everyone to adopt their way of life.
@Jefe
Interesting question. I wonder if it is an available process and how legit it would be.
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@mbeti
I’ve noticed this pattern (or think I have) with numerous white commentors ,regardless of gender
very lengthy,multiple comments in which they focus on what they experience only to the exclusion of anything else and are ready able and willing to argue argue and um argue ,also name call etc
Any mention of their name results in an immediate response most of the time.
…I really didn’t think Linda was doing that, and I realise I’m in the minority and I could care less about “winning”. I think people wanting to “win” instead of reach understanding is what’s the problem with these kinds of discussions.
It’s not even anything specific to anyone here, except the person that I named( Kiwi) I just get tired of Black and other PoC talking about anti racism online and in private but never living it or saying it in real life. And then coming online or attacking people to act out their misdirected anger.
I’m getting really tired of that whole cowardly phonomenon.
And I can tell you from living in Chicago or any multi ethnic majority white area even in Canada and the United States, ethnicism is very common. Basically all the ethnic slurs like “h..ky” and such come from other white people and even going to school with them it’s been my experience that even being “White” is really relative to your socio economic class and how thats defined where you live. Ever MORE so in regards to Eastern versus Western Europeans or Protestants versus Catholics (Quebec versus the rest of Canada).
Its not my struggle completely but I’ve seen it enough to know it goes on and that its just as bad as anti black racism but it in a different way.
There’s a reason why places like Evergreen Park(where Ted Kazinski the Unibomber is from) is primarily composed of Polish People and why all those ethnic groups live in separate areas of the city.
I feel like one of the reasons black people in my experience don’t have communities like that is because of our own classism, that no one ever wants to acknowledge and I’ve seen black people get enraged with white people in private but never say anything to them directly and then turn around and attack other black people for what white people did to them.
I mean… many posts on this blog are about AntiBlack racism and I saw Linda argue with a white troll in another thread and people agreed with her there….but here they argued with her and even with me for agreeing with a lot of what she had to say on this thread simply because she was the only non PoC person on the thread commenting, and for what purpose I don’t know.
Because if PoC can have this much to say to people they perceive or label as Racist in real life I really don’t think racism would be this much of a problem. And Anglo American racism isn’t even the topic of discussion so even bringing that in at all is just feeding White Racists Narcissism which is not for me to do. Thats why I just stopped once, links and citations stopped mattering to the people I was arguing with, because I d.mn sure ain’t white and I d.mn sure ain’t a troll and Islamophobic mi batty, I think the person that called me that was just being ignorant and cowardly and a little misogynist.
It’s all just stupid. And I can remember when this site wasn’t just a bizarre circle jerk.
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Lord of Mirkwood
“Maybe it’s just me, but those seem like pretty good allies to have.”—I don’t really see it as an “allies unite” type situation. It was a simple situation of correcting an inaccuracy.
One that quickly got out of control and took the thread way off topic.
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@ mike4ty4
One my favorite subject is how geography influences cultures and the societies and anytime you study Africa especially Sub Saharan Africa you’re going to get into the importance of Salt and also slavery. Even today there’s no other way to really get certain items out of Africa to other parts of the world except by carrying them on foot. That’s primarily why slavery was thought to have originated in the first place.
People wanted things and people from Africa but they didn’t want to pay for those things and in every culture where slavery is practiced that was also the case just with Europeans, Indigenous Americans(Asian Americans?), and Asian. Thats the one common thing. That book talks a lot about the Islamic slave trade particularly in regards to the Salt Industry. There are other books I can’t think of right now. Lots of history books, not all written by white or even from their perspective. Most of the Black experience of Islam I learned about from life experience and these kinds of books:
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@ mike4ty4
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@ mike4ty4
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kola Boof says crazy stuff on twitter but I believe her when she says she was kidnapped and sexually enslaved by Osama Bin laden and she is African and she was vaginally infibrulated like Ayan Hirsi Ali was and I don’t entirely agree with either of them but I think their accounts are accurate based off of what I saw and know from first and secondhand experience.
Muslims do primarily practice slavery TODAY, RIGHT NOW, for economic and sexual reasons, just like Christians did and a good deal of it is practiced in Africa on Black Women.
So I don’t doubt that what Linda says about the Mongols in Europe is true. It matches up with way too many accounts of Muslims doing this kind of stuff for me to disagree.
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There is actually evidence that Genghis Khan might have been a White guy, Rashad Al’adin a persian historian said that he had red hair and green eyes. Various other Persian/Islamic/Arab sources back this up; isn’t that an interesting twist? The biggest mass murderer and genocide committer of the medieval world, was actually a white guy. A White guy’s son killed of most of the European world via the black plague being brought to Europe while destroying the Arab civilizations and their history.
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@Batterytrain
That wouldn’t be surprising. from what I’ve seen race is a way of thinking in relation to power and control of people who can perceived as being weaker and its a mindset many people, of all races have.
And in antiquity it wasn’t always based on skin color in the way it is in anglo american countries anyway. Skin color had much to do with it but it was based on a number of things, skin color just being used to signify that because color coding is one of the most common ways our brain groups or categorizes things, even children associate certain things with colors as babies.
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I think the thing that people are ignoring about the social concept of race, especially in relation to different ethnic groups is what is or isn’t considered “dark” or “black”.
Colin Farrell would be considered “Black Irish” because he looks slightly Mediterranean. He can actually tan without getting sunburn which is actually from what I understand not considered unattractive in Ireland.
But what makes someone “dark” or “black” REALLY DOES VARY WIDELY. So there are actually White/Asian people who be considered “dark” or “black” in their respective ethnic groups or cultures. Or even light. But the only reason so many people prefer or express admiration of “light skin” is because it’s thought to be less common than dark skin is.
I’m brown but many Africans I know consider me “light” skinned. Because relative to black or very dark brown, being coffee with cream colored is “light” to them. They would say that a lot too, “its because you’re light skinned” and….they were right a lot of the time. And I’m not even a high yellow like my grandmother or Loni Anderson before she bleached her skin, I’m just not as black as them but I still have the figure that’s a associated with black women.
Even that woman Loni Anderson was famous for being “sexy”. She played Jane Mansfield. People in the Christian and the Arab world want the “blackness” without the “black”.
I don’t get how people separate the two. And I notice a lot of German men talked about Polish and Eastern European women’s bottoms being full or rounded and my favorite brand of jeans comes from Poland. Saying or believing “darker” women are more sexually available and promiscuous. Or “fatter” exists in all cultures. Even the fuller figures supposedly is linked to richness in foods that comes from eating certain tuber roots(cassava, potatoes) ect ect.
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http://www.sebadamani.com/uploads/6/0/2/8/6028591/7126431.jpg?724
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I think even when they called “Black Irish” people “black” they were could have been referring to people possibly descended from the Vikings who could have looked like anything from
Nikolaj Coster-Waldau(Danish)
or
Victor Tsoi (Russian/Korean)
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And I notice like Linda was saying a lot of people from Eastern Europe who look, and even she kind of( she could easily be one of my aunt’s if her that avatar was her picture) many European people descended from Black People, especially Africans in Europe today don’t look “black” at all they actually look a lot closer to white:
But the pre Christian Imperialism world was very mixed and “black” and “white” did mean the same things they do now but what that was considered “black” or “white” in terms of appearance actually varied widely. And anti slavic racism is still very widely practiced and most antisemitism in Russian or Ukraine against people like
Mila Kunis(her family left Ukraine because of Anti Semitism and that’s actually just as bad or worse than the Islamophobia in Europe)
French people were actually the ones I knew who made the most jokes about the Holocaust. And French People told me that “Jews are not White”. Serbians being enslaved by the Mongol and other Empires is the root of it. For Jewish people it has….something to do with religion or something but in practice it plays out the same way as Anglo American Anti Black racism. The Antiblack racism is actually on the same level with Slavic or Eastern European Racism from what I’ve seen in Europe because other white nationalities were slaves in Europe more recently than most Africans were and Africans were and still are considered unique, almost celebrities, simply because of our “novel” appearance and the accomplishments we’ve made there and abroad.
King George the III wife could be descended from Northern Africans but I doubt she would have been his Queen if she was Polish/Serbian/Croatian descent. Black enslaved people in Europe actually arguably had much higher status and privileged than other enslaved Europeans did simply because they were so talented and looked different. It’s almost the mirror version of the US but that’s where people like Fredrik Reinfeild, Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Beethoven(brown skin with kinky hair his house in Austria was called “House of the Black Spaniard”) and Joseph Hayden descend from.
So there are cases where Black People are actually not the most oppressed And it’s not ‘reverse racism” it’s just racism with a different kind of hierarchy. Beethoven never married even though his mother did because even though he was a genius he was still considered too “inferior” to marry a proper German noblewoman. But then again Beethoven could have easily married a woman closer to his shade or even a non noble woman if he wanted so I don’t consider that very oppressive. He chose to pursue what he couldn’t have as is the case with MANY minority men who complain about racist oppression of their penises.
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@Kiwi
So did you speak up to those white people about their antisemitism like you’re speaking up to me(anonymously and from behind a keyboard) about my “Islamophobia”?
Or did you just say nothing?
You’re the one applying double standards.
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@Kiwi
And you are behaving like a coward.
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And for people wondering how how ethnic racism plays out, it’s actually very easy to guess someone’s nationality or ethnicity by their surname(specifically how it’s spelled) or background if you have enough cultural knowledge. And even that can be learned passively. You may not be exact or you’ll only get it half right, but I do it all the time with Hispanic, European, and Asian people. Its really easy and it’s reflexive for me. I never grew up with this idea that White and Black weren’t variable. Anyone who grows up in a city as racially and ethnically segregated as Chicago doesn’t. t’s one of the first or second cultural lessons I learned as a kid. You don’t want to get a ragulech mixed up with a cannoli. Or get Paprikash mixed up with Linguini. That run you an a…whooping in the wrong part of Chicago.
Ethnic Racism is almost as visible as skin color in practice. Because even certain people do have certain distinct features. People get so color struck they don’t seem to realize, and even I forget at times how mixed Black, People’s features tend to be. Like Loni Anderson if you just made some black people, no matter what their skin color was, white, that would be the only thing that changed about them. They would still look exactly the same as many White Americans which is why in this culture Racism became more based on skin tone/shade.
There was really no other way to disguish, like there is in Europe, because we’re all Christian Prisoner/Enslaved people racial mutts. The US doesn’t have different ethnic groups, except what immigrated here, anyway.
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@Kiwi
You didn’t say any of those people were black either. You just said “people who lived in Muslim countries”.
I made it a point to mention Africans and you missed it.
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@abagond
the first comment that I have in moderation you can delete. And if the second is off topic I honestly only referenced it because I thought everyone understood this and was working from the same or similar understanding as me. But it’s your call. I still think the gesture thing in relation to ethnicity is relevant.
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And for me myself it was actually very easy to mistake Eurasians for hispanics or black people just based on appearance. If I didn’t know I would swear many Russians or Eurasian people were light skinned black people or hispanic.
I even thought Yul Bynner was Hispanic for the longest time because he looks like a lot of Puerto Ricans I knew:
But I think one reason so many of them look “white” to Americans is because of movies and television and I know especially in Europe that is not the case and even in America it really isn’t the case. Most of those “white people” got rhinoplasty and skin lightening too and really doesn’t look that natural if you know what to look for especially on people like Cynthia Margolis. And the people who get the most rhinoplasty, by population group in America are still actually Jewish. I can find the statistic if it still applies but I know at my school all those girls had plastic surgery really early in life.
“The Addams Family: Values” film even makes a joke about Christina Ricci telling a horror story at this WASP rich sleepaway camp:
“And when they woke up…. all of their old noses had grown back.“(chorus of screams)
You can be “white” and still be a visible minority based on your ethnicity. It’s just as obvious as skin color.
Racial segregation actually makes your ethnicity more obvious especially in mono racial areas. I think that was the point of all that segregation actually. To control populations. That’s why it was all racist.
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i don’t believe the Beethoven story, there was for a fact kings and nobility there were mixed with black in europe. There are insignia’s with black Nubian symbols in German nobility. There was no possible way Beethoven could be considered inferior simply due to his talents even at that time.
what i think the problem was that Beethoven might have been an autistic creative introvert type that didn’t understand the wimminz and missed his shot at properly exploiting groupies.
I used to be a eurocentrist but now i’m starting to understand that there were Africans and blacks in Europe before Whites from Central Asia, and that they had civilizations there. The evidence based on genetics, and history is plain in sight. The nobility of the African civilizations there were mixed forcibly with the albino’s from Central Asia resulting in black looking holy roman emperors and nobles.
[b]
The biggest surprise though is that White people came from Northern India and are actually Indian albino’s, again the genetic evidence is there. The Anglo-Imperial system was designed because even the Euro’s knew back then that they are albino’s and they can’t synthesize or survive latitudes where sunlight is strong. And the places with the most sunlight were the places with the most gold and cash unfortunately for them.[/b]
Again Haplogroup R1a mutated in India and Indian albino’s look exactly like White people and espiecially the much vaunted Northern Europeans. White Europeans are Indian albino’s from Central Asia mixed with blacks. Italian geneticist Cavorla savorla? has pretty much admitted this indirectly.
The Anglo-American system was designed with this in mind more or less, they needed a way to profit from labor and goods in such latitudes, so they created this system to exploit and use dark people to garner those resources back then, in such latitudes. It’s an effective form of thought and social control, especially if you are defective albino’s who can’t do the work in such latitude s and can’t properly synthesize sunlight; so you need to constantly project force and power on darker skinned people, to keep the goods coming/profit from labor.
This pretty much explains most of the behavior of these European Central Asian albino’s and their entire history of colonialism/warfare.
The only thing i disagree with that is that White traits are recessive traits, i don’t think this is true. Their traits are albino traits, and they will always exist as long as albinism in humans exist.
White people are albino’s from India and Southern/Central Asia, they were the huns and Mongols of their day in the form of Scythians/Avars/Goths when they overpopulated Central Asia and decided to move to Europe/Middle East/South Asia. They enslaved/oppressed/exterminated/mixed with the darker skinned people with civilizations already in those places or exploited them/made vassals.
This is the true history of White people, and they used the horse to accomplish this task in the time frame all of this happened in Eurasia and West/South Asia. They found the horse while trying to escape the heat and sunlight of the Southern latitudes from where they came from and the alienation socially.
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@Sharinair:
See if you can rent the movie ‘Mongol’ and compare it with ‘Marco Polo’, it may be interesting for you.
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@Herneith
I believe I will look into doing just that.
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@Batterytrain
It dawned on me a few months ago that a huge effort was being made to make historically black figures white or dark skinned whites as many put it.
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@batterytrain
there was for a fact kings and nobility there were mixed with black in europe.
^^^Those were usually WOMEN. Women can use the men who love them to raise their station, and that of their descendants because powerful that for them by legitimizing their children. Men are usually in positions in society to do that. Wealthy women usually aren’t. They’re rarely ever free to marry as they wish. Also people who are able to marry into nobility do tend to be women because women aren’t really considered that much of threat since in certain classes even today but especially back then women are just there to provide children or in some cases a good name and money. And even that is exaggerated a lot.
And I do think it’s strange that Beethoven never married. I know he proposed to a couple women and got rejected. His biographers that don’t mention his race make it seem like it’s a status thing and it probably was but his own father actually had less money than his mother, so I think he was rejected because he was thought to be “reaching above his station.”. By being black and trying to marry a wealthy presumably ethnic German woman. and I do notice the only people who marry outside of race or class are usually men. Women do it but they catch all kinds of criticism for it. And they also risk getting DISINHERITED. They don’t have the same kind of freedom to marry down although it does happen.
There are insignia’s with black Nubian symbols in German nobility. There was no possible way Beethoven could be considered inferior simply due to his talents even at that time
It was due to his skin colorbecause Beethoven was very brown and not at all German looking, and his status. He couldn’t “pass”.
There’s a lot of books about both Beethoven and Joseph Haydn that describe them as being particularly “mulatto” in appearance, and “brown skinned” or having negroid features. And according to his next door neighbor, Beethoven was very brown. And he didn’t look “German” at all, not even in his features. Beethoven did play for the nobility and Queen Charlotte(also from Germany) was mulatto or passing.
But there are some people of a certain class who view performers as “servants”, or beneath them. Originally that’s what musicians were brought to court to do. Entertain. But they usually had no real power of their own. That’s why that perception existed. Even Toulouse’s family was ashamed of him for becoming a painter because he “worked”.
And those kind of people are very snobby to artists. So I can imagine them being snobby to Beethoven because of his color and his features.
Beethoven himself got very angry with people who called or implied that he was “inferior” so much of the “white washing” that was done to him he was an active participant in himself and I can’t help but think that was due to his decidedly non German, negro appearance because people talked not only about his music but THAT also. Even when his music is described a lot of words like “savagery” and “ferocity” get thrown around.
And the concept of “race” at least in Anglo American sense was being used at that time in Napoleonic Europe but maybe not the same way it would have been applied in America.
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@batterytrain
Beethoven’s mother married an alcoholic( I didn’t even think that was possible for a German) and the marriage was miserable. And Beethoven’s father basically just beat him into being a stage child because he wanted him to be Mozart. Beethoven’s paternal grandfather called his mother a “chambermaid”.
I mean even with people who interracially marry in Europe today the PoC is usually marrying/dating down in terms of class/income/education. I saw so many women in interracial relationships basically supporting the man.
Certain wealthy or old families won’t even consider the idea of a person who’s not from the right background marrying into their family. It doesn’t matter how much money or talent or influence or power that person has, if they don’t have the right blood it’s just not done. Or if it’s done it’s frowned upon.
Aristotle Onassis is a good example of that:
______________________________________________________________
Onassis married Athina Livanos, daughter of shipping magnate Stavros G. Livanos and Arietta Zafrikakis, on 28 December 1946. Livanos was aged 17 at the time of their marriage; Onassis was 40. Onassis and Livanos had two children, both born in New York City: a son, Alexander (30 April 1948 – 23 January 1973), and a daughter Christina (11 December 1950 – 19 November 1988). Onassis named his legendary super-yacht after his daughter. To Onassis his marriage to Athina was more than the fulfillment of his ambitions. He also felt that the marriage dealt a blow to his father-in-law and the old-money Greek traditionalists who held Onassis in very low esteem.
______________________________________________________________
Keep in mind Aristotle Onassis was insanely wealthy at that time and even HE had to find a woman who was too young and naive to refuse him( she probably wanted to get away from her family,) but from the nobility to marry him. And she cheated on him anyway because of the age difference.
Most people from wealthy families inherit whatever their fortune is at age seventeen but it depends. If she was just coming into her majority at that age and getting her inheritance it was really was like an “F you” to the noble class
Coincidentally Aristotle Onassis is very dark skinned:
And you’re right about the DNA and the African heritage, I think that’s why so many Mediterraneans are dark it’s not because of the sun. They have African/Asian ancestry that they don’t acknowledge, especially Southern Greek and Italian people that immigrated to white settler countries. Thats how a lot of them became “white”.
Beethoven did a some tutoring and one of the students he tried to marry was a teenager and he was in his late forties and that was supposedly why the marriage proposal was rejected. Because Beethoven was insanely cult like popular and the family acted like they thought the girl was just star struck but I think the truth of it is that an more mature woman wouldn’t have sacrificed her position to be with him. Even if he was Beethoven. And if he knew that his best attempt at marrying into the noble class would have been to a girl who hadn’t been ground into that way of thinking yet and who would have risked it for him. If that was his way of getting rid of the inferior stigma forever that would have been the way to do it.
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Going back to the post Aristotle Onassis WAS born in the Ottoman Empire.And looking at him he does have African/Asian admixture.
And even as rich and wealthy as he was he was still held in low esteem by the “old money greek traditionalists” which is basically the lighter, blonde haired and pale eyed Northern Greeks, because of his mixed ancestry.
So ethnicism is a lot of the time actually about race and vice versa. Because Aristotle Onassis is not considered “white” in Europe, I really don’t think. He would very much be considered a “black” European, because of his skin color and his ancestry.
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This is Athena Livanos (formerly Onassis)
That was the seventeen year old heiress that Aristotle Onassis felt like it was such an accomplishment to marry because that’s what Traditional old money culture looks like In Europe, or is thought to look like.
Even the granddaughter, who’s father is French, actually looks much “blacker” than her maternal side:
She’s also the richest woman in the world but because of her ethnic ancestry she married so loser fortune hunter. Even in the picture the roots of her hair are dark and she clearly dyes it.
^^^^
That’s all why I agree with Linda, you can be a visible minority and also be “white”. Most of ethnic racism is against the white people who show or acknowledge their African/Asian ancestry that they inherited most likely inherited through Ottoman Empire through Genghis Khan or through the Moors. All those -acian, and -ian people in Europe.
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I even notice when rich Europeans marry down or out of their circle it seems to always be to Americans, either Latin Americans or people from the United States. I think Athina Onassis’s husband divorced a model, who committed suicide, to marry her. So men marry for money it’s just… rarer.
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And a lot of ethnic Americans came to America to marry “whiter” people to “lighten up”. I’ve heard older Italian/Greek ladies use that expression. It’s easier for them to “lighten up” in the New World than it is in the Old World because of all the ethnic racism.
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Correction: Athina Onassis is ONE of the richest women in the world.
I don’t think she’s actually the richest anymore. But she’s up there.
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@ Alita
What does this stuff have to with Genghis Khan?
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I notice this blood quantum stuff in a lot of cultures because people the world over who are descended from people who have been enslaved get looked down on because so much of our genetic admixture was “forced” on us. And because most children that result from rapes don’t get claimed by the father’s in a patriarchal society those children grown up with very limited prospects and it follows them and their descendants. Because most human societies operate like that. Blood will out. I don’t think it’s genetic predisposition entirely,it’s also environment, specifically people.
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@Abagond
A lot of people in Europe and America too who look like Aristole Onassis, and Linda, get treated as inferior because of their ancestry, or what people assume to be their ancestry.
Thats basically what the Holocaust and the Balkans Wars were about. And it was ethnic racism also based on skin color like a lot of Anti Black American racism.
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@Abagond
And most people who are “dark” in Europe, or even if they’re not, usually are because they have Asian/African(Moorish) admixture and its very obvious. Ethnicism and Racism is pretty much the same thing. Because those “white” people were descendants of people enslaved by Asian/Muslims, that’s why many of them look so “black”. And Genghis Khan was racist, it was just a different kind of racism. The older kind that gets practiced outside of European Settler Countries and in certain classes of European Settler Countries.
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I notice white Americans in general like to base their superiority on the way that Europe Conquered other people, but for most of it’s history the part of Europe that was actually worth anything was under the control of Asian or African people. So it’s ironic to me.
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Even all of the technological and industrial innovations, like noodles and indoor plumbing, math and science all come from the time period when Europe was under the control of Asia or Africa anyway. So they’re not superior, they’re just ignorant of their own inferiority usually or just overcompensating for it if they do know their history. Especially all those ethnic groups I mentioned.
But I notice the ones that do acknowledge that innate sense of “inferiority”, and identify with Black People because they acknowledge the similarities in their history shares with ours get treated as if they’re exerting privilege when they’re trying to just commiserate.
People like Linda.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
It would actually be better served on the Hapa thread, but I agree. This thread has turned into ALL ABOUT LINDA.
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So did a little research on Borte, Genghis first wife. She was captured during a raid and it is believed that the efforts to save her was the beginning of Genghis being a conquer. Though frankly her capture was his fault in my opinion. He along with the men of the camp ran off on horses and left the women behind.
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Here is my opinion, and this is just that. I am a long time lurker and have been for years. When I do feel the need to say something usually it is just one or two post and ALWAYS on subject. The reason for this is because after reading the articles, the comment section adds to the overall subject matter quite like a patchwork quilt. I usually take great pleasue in logging onto my computer and visiting this site daily. However, lately there have been a lot of additions to the comments on many stories that make me ask myself whether or not I’m still reading the same post. Also there seems to be a new element of attacking others(specifically veteran commentors) with such child like malice that it would almost be comical if it did not in fact make me cringe. Attacks on the same people whose comments that I look forward to reading just beacuse I know that it will be worth it. I believe in freedom of speech whether it be written, spoken or any other form. But on this private blog, I would hope some of us would take the time to READ the post and comment on the SAME material as you see fit.
I apologize to Abagond and the rest of you for adding to the chaos.
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OFF TOPIC:
1. How dark or Hispanic or Black or White celebrities look.
2. Anyone with the last name of Onassis.
3. Whether the Armenian genocide, or the Nazis or the Ustasha were racist. I do not remember anyone doubting that. It is a straw man that Alita keeps bringing up, even after being told repeatedly that no one said that.
4. Whether Alita is Islamophobic. More than enough is already here for readers to draw their own conclusions – if they care to.
5. Islamophobic rants.
People who want to talk about Islamophobia or provide examples with their own rants can go here:
People who want to argue whether Arabs were or are racist against Blacks can go here:
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@ Alita
I deleted your comment in moderation as off topic.
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@Candy
No need to apologize. Sometimes it takes one speaking up in order to snap us back to reality and the topic at hand.
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sharinalr& Lord ofMirkwood: I agree with you both.
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@Lord of Mirkwood : Don’t speak of him
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@abagond
If you really want to talk about who went off topic it was actually you. You’re the one who brought White Americans into it, in the first place, and then played around with the concept of race and enslavement based on it to agree with Kiwi that an Asian Conquerers enslavement of Europeans, because of religion or whatever wasn’t racist:
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@abagond
I mean if you’re suddenly saying, now that what you put in the post:
Race: He thought Mongols were better than everyone else, but he did not divide mankind into races. His mass killings were an instrument of terror, not genocide. Unlike Nazi Germany or the US, he was not trying to clear the land to give his own people living space (Lebensraum).
is OFF TOPIC even though it was on topic when YOU wanted to discuss it, which is how the whole discussion started in the first place. Linda said Ghengis Khan was racist because he enslaved Serbians
Kiwi and You disagreed with her.
That’s how the concept of religious enslavement being “racist or not” came up
To add to my point, while it was unacceptable for Muslims to enslave free Muslims, enslaving free black Christians in the U.S. was the norm among white Christians.
And I brought up the fact that
1) enslaving free people was/is the “norm” for all Islam STILL. Today.
2) And that most black people are Christian because they were enslaved and forced to be(they were probably some animist religion or Muslim before coming to the US) and
3) that Kiwi had his facts twisted, like believing the movie “Taken” was accurate or real when it was actually just a completely made up story.
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@abagond
I agree. Well said.
I agree with Kiwi. Based on what you said, the Turks were not being racist. Cruel and unjust, yes, racist, no. The same goes for Genghis Khan, and probably most conquerors.
If the Turks had acted like White Americans, they would have wiped out the Serbs, like what Whites did to Native Americans.
If Turks had acted like White Americans, converting to their religion would not have been enough, just as it has not been enough for Black and Asian Americans.
White Americans want to make what they did and do in history seem like “part of the human condition”, “what everyone does”. They use Genghis Khan and others to that end. They do not want to face up to their sick mindset.
So you WERE discussing, in a group. Ntothing wrong with that, except Kiwi got his whole premise wrong, and then he still tried to defend it by just getting insulting and pulling things wholly out of his a*s. And you kept trying to have it both ways and say you agreed with him, but when I argued against the points that YOU both agreed with, you wanted me “point to where I said that” when you kept saying you…..agreed with Kiwi.
Even when you accused me of bullying(…with facts and references) you used a plural term:
That was you trying to bully us into agreeing with your point of view that racism</b. is whatever you say it is, definitions be damned.
And you tried tried to say I was “straw manning” and “bullying” even though I never ganged up on either of you with other commenters, I said I agreed with Linda and why I agreed and thought her perspective was valid. I actually agreed with your argument too, and I said more than once, just that I didn’t think it applied to this thread.
If I was arguing against both of you I wasn’t “straw manning” your argument because you agreed with Kiwi because you kept arguing as a group, until you couldn’t, because because one or all of you got your facts wrong. Like that racism, like most “isms” is a social concept so there are different definitions of it than the Anglo American one that you and Kiwi and whoever, seemed to be using when it was convenient and then acting a if you weren’t when it was shown not to be applicable to the topic at hand.
All I said was that, all three of you were being really reductive, stubborn and not arguing honestly.
Everyone’s argument was for their perspective, but the only person bullying was, your two groupies. And Kiwi started it, and he kept repeatedly going off topic:
I genuinely am curious to know whether Serb men are stereotyped as having large penises. I’m not trying to be facetious. I actually am trying to see if you understand what I’m asking.
And you said you agreed with one of their arguments, except the parts that were disproven, that was me straw manning you, even when I wasn’t directing my comment at you specifically but whatever.
So now you’re just going to declare the whole thread, that you started off topic as a way of ending the discussion? That’s fine but remember who started it.
You and Kiwi did. And then these other people just jumped in to back you up.
But Linda was using WW tears, even though we’re not talking about Anglo Americans at least not directly, and I was “bullying and strawmanning” you….and Kiwi who you agreed with, who was wrong several times.
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@abagond
You say:
I do not want to punish or limit ideas. These rules do not punish ideas but certain ways of expressing them. In my experience those who express their ideas in these ways are not all that serious to begin with.
But you clearly do want to punish or limit ideas when certain people who aren’t in your select circle of followers express them. And more than one person who used to comment on here but doesn’t anymore said that about you:
I’ve been speaking about things such as this for some time, because I ride motorcycles.
Since I’m not a favoured arse-kisser on this site, nothing I say is relevant to the majority.
That’s perfectly fine with me. I speak what I know and have lived…no more, and no less.
I just didn’t think it was true. Apparently I was wrong.
To each his own but you’re being really boring
You basically dedicated this whole site to feeding Anglo American White People’s narcissism, you couldn’t even talk about Genghis Khan without bringing them into it.
Racist trolls don’t even come here anymore, but then again neither does anybody else. They’re too afraid of getting banned or bullied by your fervent groupies.
You’ve become exactly like what you criticize all the time.
And you’re extremely boring now.
I’ll let the devils have the run of the of the place. But it was mildly interesting while it lasted.
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@abagond
All of the discussions are just your friends/guest posters or people who agree with you talking amongst themselves.
Most like “Lord of Mirkwood” have nothing interesting to say, they’re just d.ckriding or trying to get people to read whatever blog they have.
I only discussed anything at all because I was under the impression that discussion, the kind not controlled by you, was allowed because it used to be.
My mistake.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You will know xPrae from a mile away if she was him. All this over the term Racist and it’s usage. Smh
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@ Alita
Some advice:
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@Lord of Mirkwood
You realize no one cares about anything you have to say enough to even argue with you?
You haven’t said one thing about Genghis Khan or the discussion, you just keep talking about what other’s have said, and talking about being off topic but adding nothing to the topic at hand. I was actually responding to other people who had directed comments at me.
If you have something to say, I don’t understand how I’m stopping you or anyone else.
I’m not, because you don’t. Like what exactly do you have to say about the topic anyway? You just came over here because you saw that this thread had a lot of comments. And because no one was discussing anything with you wherever you were. I don’t even follow enough of what you say to care.
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@abagond
I agreed with your points, just not how you argued them, or what you used to support them and I didn’t think it was applicable to this in any case.
But the fact that you took that as an insult or a derailment, just shows how controlling you are and the fact that you are trying to limit discussion and free thought, you use your groupies to do it and then play ignorant and innocent when they get called on it. Or act like you weren’t involved in it.
If you want this to be an echo chamber of people who completely agree with you and repeat whatever you say, you should say so.
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@abagond
If you want to controlled discussions have them. Or don’t. But be honest about it.
It gets really confusing when you try to have it both ways. Especially to people who don’t have a lot of time on their hands to figure out what kind of a mood you’re in when you can’t seem to make up your mind about what you’re even arguing or even be honest about that.
Dueces
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@abagond
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
People who give advice are usually the worst at following it. You being the prime example. That’s why none of you newer posts have anyone commenting but the same people you know who always agree with you anyway.
I only responded to Linda’s comment or anyone’s because it was interesting. Not because I cared about what was being discussed enough to insult anyone. Its all just history. But then people accused me of bullying to get into their feelings of other people who are not me or Linda that were probably bullying them offline, like those antisemitic racist white people in Kiwi’s lab, and people became more invested in arguing against Anglo American White people at all costs.
If you just spoke up to them in real life you wouldn’t need to do on here. But that would take courage, and courage takes honesty. You, and Kiwi, and Sharinalr, and whoever have demonstrated neither of those virtues online so I doubt you have demonstrate them offline.
Writing is often a reflection of a person’s character, but whatever you have to tell yourself.
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@ Kiwi
He used that term first actually. I said you were both being stubborn and a little rigid in your reasoning.
And him agreeing with you but then calling me disagreeing with your points
” straw manning” or calling a discussion that he started “off topic” is cowardly and dishonest.
If I didn’t know any better I’d swear all of you were sock puppets. You’re arguing like they would. Just agreeing and then attacking other commentators.
Took me by surprise, especially from you and Sharinalr, who both asked me to keep posting here. That’s all I was saying.
But again you have more people on your side(even though one poster said I was being interesting) because you need more people, since your argument lacks reason or facts enough to stand on its own.
So go on and tell yourself that you won, when really all you did was exclude what you were arguing against from the discussion.
Deuces ❤
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@AlitaRegina
“If you just spoke up to them in real life you wouldn’t need to do on here. But that would take courage, and courage takes honesty.”—-When you assume U make an ass out of U and Me.
“Writing is often a reflection of a person’s character, but whatever you have to tell yourself.”—It is more of whatever you have to tell yourself to make you feel better about yourself. You did nothing but resort to petty insults even in cases where no one insulted you. Now you want to pretend you are a victim who sees people as they are and are telling it like it is, but I can likely quote several posts were you simply are doing nothing but name calling and bullying (as per the definition). So if you need to convince yourself that I am this evil online person who likes being mean to people then by all means go ahead, but the truth is that you need a pacifier to sooth you because now you are feeling butthurt.
If you have nothing else to say…particularly about Genghis Khan then move on. 🙂
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NO LONGER OFF TOPIC:
3. Whether the Armenian genocide, or the Nazis or the Ustasha were racist. I do not remember anyone doubting that. It is a straw man that Alita keeps bringing up, even after being told repeatedly that no one said that.
@ Alita
Go ahead and beat your straw man to death.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
She said was I controlling the discussion. I disagree, but I will give her the benefit of the doubt.
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And, quite frankly, I think you lost a lot of credibility when you said I was d*ckriding. What does that even MEAN?
Looooooooooooooooooooooolllll
PSST:
…Everyone who’s not as much of a fool as Lord of Mirkwood is. Do not explain what being a d.ckrider is to him. I want to see how long it takes him to figure it out.
Lord of Mirkwood is SO busy riding Abogond’s d.ck he can’t be bothered to figure out what that self explanatory term means.
Its so hilarious watching people insult their own intelligence by trying to insult another person, AND get caught out there while they do it. Watching this fool struggle with reading comprehension is the saddest and funniest thing I’ve ever seen in my life.
Watching him try to think for himself is like watching century old wheels pulled from a shipwreck at the bottom of the ocean, turning.
Don’t spoil my fun seriously.
Let him think he’s actually participating in the discussion.
Lmfao…he seriously seems to have taken it literally, I think that’s why he’s confused.
… Imma wait.
This is just like watching white people try to figure what black vernacular means lmfaoooo…
XD
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It’s like this girl I knew in middle school that was always criticizing something and I finally got tired of it on a bus and I told her to STFU and “stop being a hater”.
And she said,<b< "What is a hater? What does that even mean anyway?"
Every kid on the bus: Black, White, Indian, Asian….just died at laughing at her.
I love it when suburban squares did things like that to race shame me for using “Ebonics”.
The obliviousness and the stupidity just always….fill me with glee.
Seriously don’t help Lord of Mirkwood.
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Some people are so oblivious to their own stupidity it demeans your own intelligence to even bother insulting them.
Its like those white kids I went to school with who would act like they didn’t understand non standard English terms like “hater”. They didn’t look like they had a superior intellect, they just looked like idiots.
I could said “sycophant” but it would have been as fitting and I doubt he’d understand that term either.
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@Kiwi
I figured as much. A lot of that was going on in Marco Polo even though it was about Genghis Khan’s grandson.
@Lord
It is a vulgar way of saying kissing azz.
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@ Lord Of Mirkwood
All right. But how the hell does that apply to me?
Hahahahaha! How did I guess?!
You’re hilarious!
That complete obliviousness is…actually kind of endearing.
I don’t take it back(LMFAO) but I’m NOT mad at you. Seriously.
I think you’re a cutie patootie and I will answer you back, you asked a very good question.
Don’t ever change, seriously.
❤
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Is this really even appropriate or even worthwhile at this point?? Come on now ppl.
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@Abagond
I don’t know how you managed to turn white boys out but that explains the kind of ego that would lead to statements like this:
Racism is not the only cause of evil in the world. It Mis not even the only reason one might dehumanize another person, as Kiwi pointed out with rape.
I don’t know any racism…that ISN’T dehumanizing. Do you? Does anybody?
Like is it a distinction that’s of SUCH vital importance? Really?
That’s why I said you were trying to ( SO poorly) argue semantics. WTF difference is there exactly that would be of any importance when the result is that millions of people are killed and raped to the point that they no longer resemble the group they were originally? I know we’re talking about people Europeans and Asians but how is that different from Black Americans exactly? In any substantial way?
You say it’s pointless arguing with me but YOU especially are not making sense on this thread right now:
Thus your noble Christians and their touching regard for the evils of slavery.
Maybe you thought I was implying white Christians were noble even though I mentioned Harriet Tubman. Now who’s strawmanning who? You seem to particularly enjoy projecting what you’ve done all throughout this thread onto others. You have enough idiot syncophants to cosign you, that’s all you have here anyway right now but I just have to point out the OBVIOUS FLAW in that reasoning:
REVEREND Martin Luther King Jr. wasn’t… noble?
Didn’t MLK win the Noble Prize?( I mean I don’t think he was entirely fighting for equality in an of itself I DO think that he was fighting for equality in order to gain white acceptance and approval. But whatever he was fighting for benefitted us all and he gave his life for it. That alone makes me respect him. See how I acknowledged his hypocrisy but that it didn’t negate his struggles or the sacrificed people like him made to pave the way for us.)
Harriet (Moses) Tubman wasn’t noble?
Sojourner Truth wasn’t noble?
I could go on and on forever.
The majority of Black Americans are Christians. They were largely forced to be, through enslavement by being baptized but that doesn’t change the fact Black Americans used something meant to control and depower them and in fact used THAT IDEOLOGY to empower themselves. That Black Christian Church is one of the staple institutions of our community for a reason and I’m not defending Christianity but you saying Christians aren’t noble when some of the most noble people in history are Black American Christians makes you look not only disingenuous but stupid. You know Black History, Abagond.
Tell me I’m straw manning you and taking it out of context when I’m direct quoting you. Go ahead.
Or better yet let one of your d..kriders jump into the frey and try to spin that into something that doesn’t make you sound as if you were arguing with emotion instead of reason and logic.
Or throw some other debate term at me that you’re using incorrectly or that you’re projecting onto me. Or you could just concede the flaw in your reasoning and be done with it. But that would wound your ego so. I’ll just end it with this:
You said I was bullying you and Kiwi and other commentators. Weak people tend to think Strong people are bullies because they’re easily intimidated by them. That’s why people constantly call Black Women “b..ches”. We are. We’re staunch allies and formidable foes. People do not like to have us as enemies so they dismiss us in order to excuse that fear. Black Women didn’t single handedly carry this entire race through a oppressive struggle lasting centuries, one that would have made a lesser group of people extinct without burning some bridges and having an edge.
You want to argue with racist white people so badly I suggest all of you go find some. You seem to be seeing them even where they’re not.
I been arguing with racists and fighting racism all my life mostly by myself because my people was elsewhere. Hiding behind a computer screen somewhere and nursing a extremely volatile grudge that gave them this righteous sense of victimhood that they need to act out viciously at any opportunity. Key word being “act” as in “perform”. They want to talk about anti racism, not live it because that would require more than typing.
You just lost all credibility you had with me. You turned into some egotistical coward who think’s he’s infallible, Abagond.
You seem to think I don’t take criticism well because my lips aren’t on your a.s well I’m sorry. I’m not here for that, I didn’t realize it was required.
Don’t let your syncophants fool you. This is just a fantasy for them too. The people who shout the loudest get silenced first. I seen it a million times.
But you guys can enjoy your game. I’m going to be too busy standing up for my rights in real life. I won’t bore you all with it anymore, trust me, I got better things with my time than play follow the leader.
Enjoy your circle jerk of fanatical devotion. That bulls..t is not for me to do.
The fact that your last defense was a white boy off the short bus….yo I’m seriously done. You looking unfamiliar right now.
❤ Deuces<3
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He actually copied and pasted the definition too though!!!! XD
Seriously, you just made my afternoon Lord of Mirkwood. It doesn’t matter what you say.
You’re adorable.
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@Abagond
Correction:
________________________________________________________________
Racism is not the only cause of evil in the world. It is not even the only reason one might dehumanize another person, as Kiwi pointed out with rape.
________________________________________________________________
I love how you say that like it’s a distinction of any importance. Racism (which usually leads to some kind of rape and mass murder) mass murder, and rape is ALL dehumanising. I don’t know any form of those things that isn’t dehumanizing. Murder and Rape probably being the most dehumanizing acts a person can commit against another person/people.
________________________________________________________________
Race: He thought Mongols were better than everyone else, but he did not divide mankind into races. His mass killings were an instrument of terror, not genocide. Unlike Nazi Germany or the US, he was not trying to clear the land to give his own people living space (Lebensraum).
________________________________________________________________
I think that anytime one group thinks that they are superior to everyone else they’re racist. The way Genghis Khan went about expressing it wasn’t the same as the modern method but the results were. He thought everyone non Mongol was subhuman that’s why he mass murdered and raped them, And he didn’t need to clear the land for his own people. His rapes basically changed the genetic makeup of whole populations groups to the point that the main legacy GK left is changing the genetic makeup of so many groups of people, to be one man at that apparently, and all the gruesome ethnic divisions that still cause violence and ethnic racist genocides today cn be traced back to him. He forced the people he ruled over to become his descendents. That’s one of the reasons why Black Americans bear such scant resemblance to the Mdinkas, Coranmantees, Fulani Hausa, and the Ashantis that we were all a part of originally and for all the shade/national/ethnic divisions in our community today. The forced, by way of conquest and enslavement, admixture that made us into the diaspora.
You’re implying that Genghis Khan wasn’t doing it because of the Anglo American concept of Race, based on skin color. Therefore he’s not Racist(America didn’t even exist at this point so it’s not even a valid comparison to make) even though that’s not the only way to construct race, especially in Europe and Asian continents that have had some of the worst racial(by way of ethnic ancestry) conflicts in human history even into the 21th Century. And the way race is constructed is irrelevant to rapes and mass murders and systematic destruction of a free people. But Genghis Khan was Asian and they were European so that sliver of a distinction is of such vital importance you had to seriously act like anyone who disagreed was an Islamophobe or an Asian Atrocitcist.
Even if you try to point out something good that he did, which is tolerating other religions that’s clearly a power supporting move. He wasn’t even the first one to come up with that anyway Alexander the Great did that first. You can’t rule over territory as large and diverse and the one both of them did without giving your subjects some kind of cultural freedoms. It’s impossible to micromanage an area that large or religiously terrorize or even control it for more than…maybe two generations and his empire lasted about as long as Alexander the Greats did.
As I think Battery Train mentioned I wouldn’t be surprised if he did have red hair and green eyes. Most nobles looked nothing like the people they ruled over and there was no mass media assisted concept of racism based on Skin Color back then to make anyone think there was anything weird about it like today. Three of the Roman Emperors were Black African. Race in antiquity had more to do with ancestry anyway genghis Khan could have easily had some recessive genetic traits that gave him some sociopathic godlike sense of unwarranted superiority. Weirder things have happened in history. Hence the reason ethnic/class divisions were used to create hierarchies in the first place. It was easier to control mega states created by conquerors like him if there was some kind of permanent underclass in place to do all the manual labor.
The parallels between Anglo American Racism practiced on the Black Diaspora and what The Mongols and the Ottoman Empire practiced on Eastern Europe and the people they colonized are so obvious, the only reason nobody wanted to admit Linda had a point about Serbs: American Blacks comparison was because she was a, not even “white”, commenter saying it.
Not that igaf per se, even though Linda really didn’t really deserve that, IDK wtf that was about honestly, or what this weird hive mind collective stuff people seem to be displaying is,
but the reasoning of that has more holes than swiss cheese. It’s like you tried to argue the inverse of everything you normally say about slavery and race when it’s applied to Black American People, just because the particular person/people in question doing the same things happened to be Mongolian/ Non White to European/Asian/African people. You had to completely sound as if you were reversing your moral position on Racism, by way of implication, and use a whole bunch of factual and logical inaccuracies just to even poorly defend that retarded premise. Even the arguments you and your syncophants tried to use to defend it were just factually wrong or inaccurate.
But even though I direct quoted your post and your comments, multiple times, accuse me of “strawmanning you”, because taking your flawed reasoning to its logical conclusion completely invalidates it. Go on. Or say that I’m adhomineming you or going off topic. Or just agree when one of your syncophants says it.
I’m done.
❤ Deuces ❤
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To Abagond and Jefe:
Abagond said:
He thought Mongols were better than everyone else
By definition that’s racist.
but he did not divide mankind into races.
I have no information to affirm or rebut that statement in regards to Genghis Khan but apparently his grandson Kublai Khan did divide his subjects into racial/ethnic categories during the Yuan dynasty, which Sounds like classic racism to me.:
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan/four-class-system.htm
“Unfairly, the ‘Four Class System’ stipulated that four classes of people received different treatment in political, legal and military affairs. First, the real power was mainly grasped in the hands of the Mongolian people and Semu people while few of the court officials were Han people or any other ethnic minorities from the third and the fourth classes. Second, although all classes of people were allowed to attend the imperial examination, people of the third and fourth classes had to participate in more test subjects and exam questions that for them were more difficult, compared with the first and second class. Third, the fourth class people received unequal legal treatment. On committing the same crime, different punishments were handed down to different classes of people. Fourth, the Mongolian people adopted a tight control towards the Han people and Southerners. These two classes were forbidden to possess any weapon or raise any dogs or eagles.
His mass killings were an instrument of terror, not genocide. Unlike Nazi Germany or the US, he was not trying to clear the land to give his own people living space (Lebensraum).
Not by plan perhaps but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Mongols not only used mass killings as an instrument of terror also arguably committed genocide and ethnic cleansing. Plenty of evidence to suggest that what is now Northern Afghanistan was ethnically cleansed of it’s indigenous population and replaced by Mongol men and slave women from other areas.
Looking at the definition of genocide:
“the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.”
The Mongols fulfilled that definition multiple times throughout history.
A frequent mention in the literature surrounding Mongols was gendercide. Males down to the age of three would be killed and the women would be sold into slavery or made sexual conquests. The Mongolian population was fairly low relative to the populations they conquered.. they would settle or reward Mongolian soldiers and their allies with land, booty, and captured women.
Although sometimes everyone was killed (that could be found) regardless of gender or age if the Mongols decided to be vindictive.
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To Abagond and Legion:
Abagond said:
According to Google, just now in 2015, of the web pages that mention both “Genghis Khan” and the year of his death (1227), 47% also use the word “racist”, 65% use the word “genocide”. So this idea that he was racist is hardly limited to “The fringe comments of some people on a fringe blog.”
Well I did do the same thing here:
As it turns out.. it’s a flawed method of making our points by using searches which look for all of the words.
If one actually follows those links almost none of the top 200 articles mention that the Mongols of Genghis Khan’s time or immediately were racist (But it did indirectly lead me to an article that indicated that at least under Kublai Khan, the Mongols were racist, see my previous post..). Mostly what one finds is a listing of table of contents, modern Han racism, modern Mongolian racism, racism by Europeans for ignoring the military conquests of the Mongols, etc… but very few articles directly or indirectly discussing Mongolian racism of the 13 – 16th centuries.
A more discrete and accurate search method would be:
“mongols were racist”
4 hits
In the first hit the poster wonders if the Vikings and Mongols were racist:
“I suppose Robert may think he was just channeling Conan’s stories so it’s just Conan that is racist but it sucks either way, not cool. Although I do wonder if people like the Vikings and Mongols were racist as well,”
The second two hits looked like book reports and mentioned the Yuan dynasty and racism (which apparently it was..)
And the fourth hit was posted by someone who apparently is a non native English speaker of unknown race or ethnicity.
“genghis khan was racist”
1st hit – this thread
2nd hit described the casting of John Wayne as Genghis Khan was racist
“Chinggis Khan was racist”
Zero hits
“Kublai Khan was racist”
Zero hits
“mongol empire was racist”
Zero hits
Quite frankly I’d say the majority of white Americans would have few opinions about the Mongols or Genghis Khan let alone have a nuanced and informed understanding of their actions to suggest that there were racist. They’d probably get that Genghis was a successful Asian conqueror but that’s about it.
Until I found the article about the Yuan dynasty and did some searching about genocide and the Mongols I had also thought that the Mongols weren’t racist either… turns out at least in some cases, that was wrong.
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Jefe:
What do you call the Han policy towards Uighurs, Tibetans & other ethnic minorities after Mao & the CCP seized power?
I call it ethnic cleansing.
Oppressive and violent yes.. deliberate ethnic cleansing.. at least under Mao.. debatable but I am inclined to say no (Two wrongs don’t make a right but under Mongol rule it is likely the rebellious Tibetans and Uighurs would have ceased to exist ). Uighurs and Tibetans suffered under the cultural revolution and the great leap forward but so did plenty of Han.
Post Mao there did seem to be some encouragement of the CCP for Han people to migrate to Tibet and Xinjiang… (although Han people have had a presence in Xinjiang for many centuries..) But Tibetans and Uighurs have also been encourage to migrate to other parts of China.
Note I differentiate between racist policy (laws) and racist practice of Han people, the latter of which definitely seems to occur.
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I still can’t believe this blog post topic right here. I just know that Genghis Khan would have to be stopped for there to be any chance of a decent life or existence altogether.
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