Racism before 1400 was not common to most human societies. It is not mainly rooted in the human condition.
The common mix-up is between ethnocentrism and racism:
- racism – dividing humans into “races” based on physical appearance, like skin colour, with the aim of ranking them from highest to lowest according to supposedly unchangeable, inborn qualities, like intelligence, civilization, moral character or beauty.
- ethnocentrism – judging other cultures based on one’s own. This leads to the illusion that one’s own culture is best. From this comes stuff like “American exceptionalism”, non-Greeks as “barbarians”, China as the “Middle Kingdom” and Inuits as “the Real People”.
Ethnocentrism is common if not universal in human history. Racism is not.
If US society were merely ethnocentric, not racist, there would be no perpetual foreigner stereotype. Respectability politics and Indian boarding schools would work: cultural assimilation – taking on Anglo American ways – would be enough to overcome prejudice.
The people we call Whites have been writing about the people we call Blacks for over 2,400 years. Only in the last 300 or so years have Whites consistently stereotyped Blacks as savage or violent.
Before 1400, before the rise of Western imperialism and its idea of “race”:
Ancient Egyptians: Painted people with roughly the right skin colour but rarely if ever called a person “black”, “brown” or “white”. Accepted as one of their own anyone who took on Egyptian ways. Respected the darker-skinned Nubians.
Ancient Greeks: Divided the world into Greek and barbarian based on language, not race. Greek science favoured nurture over nature. Aristotle accounted for the greatness that was Greece through Goldilocks geography: it was not too hot or too cold or too wet or too dry, but just right.
Rome: The top people came from all parts of the empire, like the Ivory Bangle Lady of York (pictured at top). Emperor Septimius Severus was Black. Having skin “like Corinthian bronze” was seen as a good thing. Barbarians looked different (Germans were tall with yellow hair, for example) but could become civilized by taking on Roman ways.
Europe, 400 to 1400: Christians divided the world by religion, not race, and duly carried out atrocities against heretics, Muslims and Jews. Jews were not racialized – there was not even the stereotype about Jewish noses till the late 1200s. Christians saw darkness, and therefore the colour black, as representing evil. This was built into English.
Arabs: There was some prejudice against Blacks, but it was personal, not backed by law, religion, science or even custom, as it later would in the West. Arabs had both White and Black slaves.
India: The holy writings of the “Veda” say nothing about caste being about skin colour. Key figures in the “Mahabharata” are dark-skinned. Unclear how much of India’s present colourism comes from British rule.
China: Seems to have had some colour consciousness. That some people who looked different lacked civilization was not seen as an accident, but neither was it seen as an unchangeable, inborn condition: they could become civilized, for example, by taking on Chinese ways.
Sources:
- Bernard Lewis, “Race and Slavery in the Middle East; An Historical Enquiry” (1990);
- “The Oxford Companion to Classical Civilization” (1998);
- Ali Rattansi, “Racism: A Very Short Introduction” (2007);
- Barbara Mertz, “Red Land, Black Land” (2008);
- Nell Irvin Painter, “The History of White People” (2010);
- Audrey and Brian D. Smedley, “Race in North America” (2012).
See also:
- respectability politics
- perpetual foreigner stereotype
- prejudice
- Anglo Americans
- Arab racism against Blacks
- colourism
- Western racism:
- The term “race”
- Spanish racial identity in 1492
- Native Americans in Western thought
- Anglo American racism in the 1600s against Blacks, Natives
- Chinua Achebe: Africa’s Tarnished Name
- Du Bois: The Souls of White Folk
- Aryanism
- The Jewish nose
“Arabs had both White and Black slaves.”
And owners. Indeed many of the prolific Arab traders were Black or mixed themselves due to both so-called races being in such close proximity of one another. Just more proof that the trade was about culture not race. Unlike the Euro-Atlantic slave trade which spawned the caste system we have of today which awards you for being lighter, but punishes you the darker you are.
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Unlike the Euro-Atlantic slave trade which spawned the caste system we have of today which awards you for being lighter, but punishes you the darker you are.
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Have you heard of the principle of uniformitarianism?
There may have been a time in the past when there weren’t that many white people in Europe; and the ones there were considered “savages from the East”
In other words, “bangle woman” may not have been an immigrant.
So what happened to all the black people in Europe?
Two possibilities are extermination or amalgamation; it wouldn’t be the first time it has happened.
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I saw a twitter post recently on indigenous Black people in Asia, with pics.
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people before 1400 did not really know other races. greeks knew no westafrican people, who really do have different (average) facial features, (average) different body shapes and last but not least different (average) personalities. they knew nubians who looked like ethiopians, which is basically dark skinned caucasians.
by the way the ancient word for “caste” in india is “varna” which means color…and in the last weeks there was a knew paper out which stated – as far as I understand – that the indoeuropeans entered europe and killed everybody in large regions who didn´t belong to them. those who were killed happen to have had different facial features.
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@ Erik Sieven
“Caucasian” is a nonsense category, with no real root in genetics, in the way that most people interpret it. It is also a fallacy that Ethiopians and Nubians are essentially “White people” with darker skin. They clearly look MARKEDLY different than Whites and Mediterranean people, besides just the skin tone. There is also a range of features within Ethiopians, they do not all look alike.
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Erik Sieven
greeks knew no westafrican people, who really do have different (average) facial features, (average) different body shapes and last but not least different (average) personalities.
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Using the principle of uniformitarianism its clear that white people are first and foremost “color struck”. There are many white people whose greatest fear is joining the Peace Corp and being handed a care package by a competing white refugee organization.
Thats why they wanna work in Africa.
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is it true that the ancient word san people had for non-san people (aka bantus) is the same word like for non-edible food?
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@ Erik
Human beings aren’t as civilized as we like to believe. Therefore a group of humans moving into an area & subsequently warring with those who were previously the sole occupants is nowhere near as big a deal as you’re making it. Its pretty much the history of all of humanity, even till this very day. Many whites have extremely different physical features, blonde hair vs dark hair, blue vs green vs dark eyes etc. yet they don’t war & separate over it. Nordic whites with platinum blonde hair, icy blue eyes & chalk white skin look nothing like olive complexioned dark haired Southern Europeans, I’ve met Sicilians who were darker than me. The reason they group together under this fallacy of whiteness is because they know its to their advantage to be a part of the privileged group.
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@Thwack
If all life did indeed start in Africa then the first Europeans were black more or less. The colder climate most likely meant they were a bit lighter in complexion by the time they trekked that far north but I couldn’t imagine them looking too much different than Black Americans.
If a different wave of humans who would go on to evolve into the modern Europeans did exterminate them it wouldn’t be a surprise, but as I noted to Erik in my previous comment this has been true of humanity for centuries. Plenty of people who actually do share physical similarities have upon discovery of one another gone to war soon after so it couldn’t be that fact alone. It just seems to be a part of human nature to some degree.
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Don’t forget that most European conceptions of race were biblically based. The Darwinian approach is quite recent for white people.
When you are dealing with a white person 35 to 40 years or older, chances are very high their first racial instruction/explanation was biblical; from their parents or Sunday school…
(do white children still go to Sunday school anymore?)
The bible speaks of “Nations” that trace back to Noah and his 3 sons; Ham, Shem and Japeth. (Genesis ch 10-11)
In addition, when you study old world maps made by Europeans, all of Africa is labeled “Eathiopia” with sometimes a smaller part labeled “Eagyptus.”
Its interesting to realize that as a child, my white friends had a better explanation of my origins than I did.
LOL
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Erik Sieven
they knew nubians who looked like ethiopians, which is basically dark skinned caucasians.
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Erik is doing everything in his power to avoid using the term “negro.”
Thats really what he wants to talk about but he can’t without risk of discrediting himself and being exposed as a white supremacist.
When people like Erik start their “dark skinned caucasian” nonsense I employ the principle of uniformitarianism and direct them to the Mursi “tribe” in Ethiopia.
Or just tell them to visit Colorado and note all the “unmixed white people” there ( an Eastern European told me this after her visit)
But perhaps one of our “fondling fathers”, Ben Franklin said it best:
“Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.”
************snip***********
“All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.”
********snip***********
“why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red?”
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@thwack But if the “white people” we call Europeans today are not indigenous to Europe, than where did they come from? Are you suggesting that the pre-Indo-Europeans were what we’d today call black people, and that they were conquered/assimilated by the Indo-Europeans coming in from Turkey?
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Benjamin
@thwack But if the “white people” we call Europeans today are not indigenous to Europe, than where did they come from?
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One of the theories Ive heard is they are from central Asia and were chased west by Mongol (Asian) people.
Check out the Tamerin mummies and the Uigyur people.
White people tend to use a coded language when discussing ancient European populations, burials, skeletons… in the last 10 years they have decided Neanderthals were not only white, but kinda smart too with art, burials, speech… this has resulted in a mini white internet pep rally and a celebration of all things Neanderthal; while only a few years ago the term was an insult.
The central Asian origin of white people theory is sometimes mated to a white people are a mutation to albinism theory in order to explain contemporary white people as a “mongrel” offspring population of albinos and Africans.
To sum up, none of it is settled science and you should do your own research.
White people can and do lie so don’t be afraid to question anything with “PHD” behind it because it often stands for “piled higher and deeper.”
*be advised*
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Interesting post
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interesting indeed….-_-
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Interesting to say the least.
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Sondis!
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Any black person who has been to East Asia (amongst the yellow races) knows the amount of sincere respect they have for “black” people.
The Ancient Egyptians respected the “Nubian” people because they founded that civilization and everyone knows it.
And the Arabs know Muhammad (pbuh) was Black.
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I have needed this post for SO long!! So many people dismiss racism in America by saying racism is an immutable part of the human condition. Now I can refer them to this post and be done with them.
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Benjamin
@thwack Are you suggesting that the pre-Indo-Europeans were what we’d today call black people, and that they were conquered/assimilated by the Indo-Europeans coming in from Turkey?
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Im saying its possible.
Not only due to the principle of uniformitarianism; but even today white people on the internet “brag” that Argentina and Chile are white countries with no black people…
Both those South American countries enacted deliberate policies to “whiten” their populations with “affirmative action” programs for white immigrants from Europe; Australia did it too.
But what they don’t discuss is the other side of the coin; the things they did to get rid of or retard dark skinned people?
I know its counter intuitive, but racism in South America is MORE sophisticated than the North American variety. They never had the KKK, lynching, segregation… white people openly admit their grandmother was black…
you just don’t see any black people.
Im not necessarily suggesting a genocide; after all, it only takes 3 generations to dilute a black person to invisibility (especially if everyone else is)
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“racism – dividing humans into “races” based on physical appearance, like skin colour, with the aim of ranking them from highest to lowest according to supposedly unchangeable, inborn qualities, like intelligence, civilization, moral character or beauty. ethnocentrism – judging other cultures based on one’s own. This leads to the illusion that one’s own culture is best.” Eh? This is too subtle for me, I can’t see a real difference between the two definitions. Abagond, are you saying that the racists use criteria that are so objective that they would recognize another race as more intelligent, civilized, moral, etc. than their own? If you’re not, then the two definitions are the same as far as I can tell. My definition of racism is that it is an ideology invented to encourage and justify the subjugation of one group by another militarily. In other words, it is war propaganda. The real difference between pre and post 1400, as far as I can tell, is the success of the European plan of conquest. Why did you pick 1400 instead of 1500 or 1640 when John Punch was sentenced to slavery by a Virginia court?
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See “blog” post and video “We The People Are Racists.”A television series based upon this concept is under consideration for production and funding support under the National Black Program Consortium NBPC360 “Open Call” initiative.Race Across America | | | | | | | | | | | Race Across AmericaRace Across America, an intercultural journey, began with an idea back in the mid-nineties. The concept was to travel around the country in an RV ala “On The Road w… | | | | View on http://www.gavinmedianuwor... | Preview by Yahoo | | | | |
Walter Harris Gavin Writer/Producer/Author/Radio Personality/Social Commentarian “The Autobiography of Obsidian Dumar” http://www.obsidiandumar.com
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@ gro jo
If you will allow me to give my opinion of it?
I think that what Abagond is saying is that Racism is essentially based on a belief in the unchangeable GENETIC superiority of a race, or races.
On the other hand Ethnocentrism would be based purely on one’s CULTURE being the best. So, it’s not inherent within the genes, it’s just that our people have chosen/developed the best path.
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King, thank you for taking the time to reply. Given the fact that genetics was unknown until 1953, I fail to see how anybody could have made such argument. People spoke of “blood” in those days and race probably didn’t extend beyond the village where one could find others related to one’s self. I know of no racist who will claim that another race is more deserving than his own. In my few, racism is ethnocentrism instrumentalized to allow the group in question to get on with the dirty deed of subjugating another.
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King! @: o O ) >
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Hey Sondis, nice to see you.
@ gro jo
Yes, I’m sorry. I used “genetics” as a kind of short cut to what we know it as today. I think they would have seen these as “racial heredity” meaning the traits passed down by the progenitors of the given “races” through Mendelian inheritance.
As I recall, a few White “Race Realists” now believe Asians to be superior to Whites in most ways. However, there are often some caveats.
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“As I recall, a few White “Race Realists” now believe Asians to be superior to Whites in most ways. However, there are often some caveats.” Note that they don’t dwell on Asian superiority, nor do they call for Asians to take command, as befits their ‘superiority’.
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Hey. I’m new to your site and I noticed you don’t have a post about the documentary Hidden Colors. I was wondering if you’ve seen it, and if not you should. It talks about African history that we don’t know about. There are already three movies, and they’re currently making the fourth.
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No, of course you are right. It’s only “superiority” on paper. They usually maintain that Whites are still more “creative” and “assertive” and also beat them in all the wars. I have noticed that the ones most likely to make the “Superior Asian” argument are those who are dating Asian girls, or those who hope to date an Asian girl. Then they spin it as the two “superior races” coming together to make an even more impressive superior SUPER Race!
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Oh, lord…
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Anybody care to try to explain the Black Madonna phenomenon of Medieval Catholic Europe? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Madonna.
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@King
But did you notice that it is white males (and sometimes the Asian females whom they convince of this) who make this assertion? Do white females express that they can create a super race by marrying / dating Asian men?
The whole assertion falls flat on its face right there.
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I remember when the Ivory Bangle Lady of York was found. People guessed that she may be someone of high rank, even royalty; a princess. Once it was found out that she was African it was guessed by many that she was a favored concubine (sex slave). Many imagine Blacks have always been slaves. They can only view us in a position of servitude.
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@ jefe
Now that you mention it… yes, it’s always seems to come from the WM/AF side of the disparity, as you suggest. Never from the AM/WF side.
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@King,
That is why I find that claim to be so disingenuous. It has nothing to do with creating a “super race” but about racial hierarchy and power.
And the argument might work for the parents, but not for the kids, especially the sons from the WM/AF combination.
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@ jefe
The same ‘race dummies’ who make these kind of claims would often cringe at the idea of their mother or pretty sister marrying an Asian guy. And when members of the ‘Super Race’ (W/A Happas) do appear among them, they are not treated like superiors. No one defers reverentially to their insight or opinions. In fact, they may even argue back and forth with them on blog sites, as if they were their equals!
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Hapas, not Happas!!
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jefe
@King,
That is why I find that claim to be so disingenuous. It has nothing to do with creating a “super race” but about racial hierarchy and power.
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All excellent points gentlemen, however my take on it is more practical.
I think this “Northern Alliance” as Ive heard it called is really just the best justification the racists who are “sleeping Asian” could come up with in their battles with other white supremacists who consider it race mixing and therefore, behavior unbecoming of a racist in good standing.
It undermines everything white supremacy stands for if every white man can shift the white line just far enough to include his nonwhite girlfriend.
Where does it stop?
Answer: it doesn’t; and it often leads to white men fighting each other (confusion)
Ive witnessed some multi page battles between white people over this issue. And the few white women in the movement have a REAL problem with this behavior
Its not over.
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Good question Kiwi; but first I suggest we account for the lack of OVERT female white supremacists.
My theory is white female nature is basically unwilling to subordinate their sexual value to their racial value because their sexual value has more utility over a much larger component of men than their racial value does.
To sum up, a white womans racism is “sneakier” or more clever because if it isn’t, it damages her sexual value among non white men; who are actually the majority of males on the planet.
in other words, white women have a good thing, they can only fcuk it up by being a racist.
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I can think of a few overt white female supremacists such as these: Margaret Mitchell of Gone with the wind fame
Daughters of the Confederacy
Daughters of the American Revolution
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90982
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@ Thwak
I agree. The basic logic of White Supremacy is that WHITES are supreme! Why would the supreme race mix with Asians? The answer is, of course, that by all of the very same metrics that they claim ‘prove’ that Blacks are inferior to Whites also ‘prove’ that Asians are superior to Whites. So if you want to go by SAT scores, you belief should really be in Asian Supremacy, not White.
And if it makes sense for an Asian to marry a White, then it should make even more sense for an Asian to marry an Asian, so as not to dilute (or pollute) their inherent superiority. And if there are good reasons why Asians should marry Whites (Who on average have lower test scores and higher crime rates) then it might make just as much sense for Asians or Whites to Marry Blacks or Latinos. A racist could then argue that the mix of Asian brainpower and Black athleticism would create the perfectly balanced Übermensch.
This is why race realist ‘Rice Sharks,’ like biff and others who have posted here, are such profound hypocrites. Ultimately racism always turns you into a dummy.
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Well, we got people like Brian Clay.
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@ jefe
Yes, the “Ultimate Human.’ with his Asian Brain and his Black physique, all he needs is a flowing cape! Lol!
Racism is really funny! (or at least would be if the unintelligent didn’t take it seriously)
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@gro jo
Wasn’t Margaret Sanger of Planned Parenthood into eugenics/stopping women of color from reproducing?
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@Kiwi, thwack
A lot of White Supremacists I’ve seen on the internet are also White Nationalists. Though they definitely seem to believe whites are superior to non-whites, they seem more interested in forcing non-whites out of white majority countries than ruling over them. So the idea that some would advocate an interracial marriage between whites and Asians seems very odd to me. The few I’ve seen who have suggested that seem to be pariah’s in the White Supremacists/Nationalist community.
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Brian Clay, bah, I have much better specimen for the perfect combination of Brain and his Black physique: Paul Robeson, Edwin Moses, Myron Rolle, etc. Speak Out, Sanger belongs on that list.
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@Kiwi
No, I agree, they aren’t pariahs in the mainstream white community. I actually know several white men who are married to Asian women. All I was saying is that you can’t be a White Nationalist (or any kind of “racial nationalist”) and support interracial marriage. So the few white men who advocate white-Asian marriages on a place like Stormfront are usually given the boot. Regarding white women who actually identify as white supremacists/nationalists, I don’t know. I’ve seen online some women (both white and black) who identified as racial nationalists and they seemed more against race mixing than their male counterparts. With regards to ordinary white women with racist tendencies, I think twack summed it up well.
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No no, gro jo!! He must have an Asian Brain, and a Black Physique in order to be the genetic Übermensch!
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@Kiwi
Those people would not be welcome to join a White Nationalist website if they told the people there that they were married/dated Asian women.
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@Kiwi
Good point.
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Benjamin
@Kiwi, thwack
A lot of White Supremacists I’ve seen on the internet are also White Nationalists.
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Ive always been skeptical of the term “white nationalist”; you do realize it has only been around for about 10-15 years?
In addition it describes a difference in degree but not kind. A white nationalist is nothing more than a diet white supremacist. They borrowed the term from the NATION of Islam in an attempt to persuade people “hey, we’re just like Louis Farrakhan, we just want a NATION of our own, just like him… to be, you know, separate… separate and equal… yeah, thats the ticket…”
Don’t be fooled. A racist by any other name is still a white supremacist because
racism = white supremacy
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too much trolling..who cares about white men or asian women or asian women and white men or whatever?
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regarding the east asian woman/’white’ man interracial relationships, i reckon it usually doesn’t go vice versa because a lot of ‘whites’ still think men are superior to women regardless of race. the act of sex is seen as a war, the man is the victor because he does the penetrating. it’s all right for a ‘white’ man to ‘subjugate’ other women but not other men to subjugate ‘his’ women. it’s like they’re trying to reassert their ‘superiority’ by ‘subjugating’ superior women, and possibly also to stake a claim to east asian genetic ‘superiority’ by having children therefore the superiority rubs off on them.
what a filthy way of thinking.
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@ 1tawnystranger
Ah yes, you touched right upon what was on the tip of everyone’s tongue. Good ol’ misogyny mixed with good ol’ racism.
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Why is any of this relevant? All we know is that since Europeans came into contact with people with dark skin they’ve been hating, hurting, oppressing and this is like for 500+ years.
The question is what are “black” people doing wrong why this continues for son long. You do realize this is not just happening in the US and South Africa right, but in Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean and throughout Africa.
What are WE doing wrong? I just heard someone say there’s no more afro-american owned radio stations in the US which makes it hard for blacks to get in the industry nowadays.
That’s what we should be focusing on.
Black male unemployment. (heck, black unemployment period)
Black incarceration rates
diseases such as high blood pressure, diabetes, prostate cancer and on and on.
high black abortion rate
black out of wedlock child births
lack of business ownership and money being brought back into the black community and black families.
I could go on and on!
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and why do people engage racist trolls or trolls who PRETEND to be clueless?
arghh such a waste of time!
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Alicia are you advocating for activism? Or perhaps self improvement? or both?
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both! rather than focus on things that are not w/in our control and have been going on for more than 500 or more years. Do you realize even in Cuba and with all the mixing in Cuba and other so-called “Latin” nations, blacks still face racism, can’t get jobs in the tourist area and so on.We have it better than “blacks” in latin america and that isn’t saying much since we’re relying on Civil Rights programs to ensure we get jobs, access and opportunities.
We need to focus on other strategies like getting along better, having wealthy blacks provide jobs, etc.
I’m in my 30’s now and in the workplace still have white men coming at me like they wish all black women were single, including me, that black men didn’t want me or any black woman (but seems white men want to homosexualize black males), hispanics and asians are supporting themselves.
Where are the black businesses to hire people? We’re the last to be hired and the first to be fired? we’re terrorized on the job (most of the time).
No black-owned radio stations? No large black corporations or businesses to hire blacks and we have such issues getting jobs. high black unemployment rate. Where are all our wealthy black athletes to build job training centers in urban poor areas that so desperately need it?
Why do I and so many other black women have to go to work everyday and deal with emotional terrorism, I don’t think any of us really feel secure in our jobs because of white supremacy and racism (which includes Hispanics and Arabs who usually join in).
Everyday I’m subjected to white people trying to marginalize me and throw constant vibes that they wish black women were un-wanted, un-protected and walked around feeling like crap. I see black men are often persuaded not to even find black women attractive. I also notice an obsession with black male sexuality among whites, including white men. It’s like they want black men sexually and want black women to go away and be rejected by everyone and society in general.
This is an everyday thing with whites ( the vast majority) and why do we blacks have to survive and deal with this constant terrorism just to have a job or to survive. Even shopping can be awful with white supremacists. Whites often want us down, white supremacist Hispanics often want us put down.
What’s wrong with US and what are WE doing so wrong that we’re vulnerable and have to be subjected to this?
We already know the HATE out there to the point that our race and sexuality is constantly attacked ( against black womenhood and black manhood), who cares about Asians or Herodotus or the 1400’s because WE ALREADY KNOW THAT!
what’s next? what are WE gonna do NOW?
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Yawn!!
Abagond..time to get this troll Kiwi out of here!
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Kiwi, a troll??? I don’t get it.
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Alicia, I think that we often talk about different aspects of racism because we are trying on many levels to understand it. Its inconsistencies and contradictions are also important factors in disarming it’s overall mechanism. Not every aspect of racism is going to be of interest to every person, but that doesn’t mean that its specific examination is not worthwhile.
You talk about Black employment and Black-ownrd companies. There is a lot to unpack there. But first let me tell you that there ARE some radio stations owned by Blacks.
i’m sure there are others as well. Your point is probably that there are not enough of them, but I’m just trying to point out that it’s not as absolute as you think it is. As for Black-owned businesses / corporation, how big do you want them to be? If you read Black Enterprise magazine, you are reading about successful Black companies every day. Yes, we can always use more, but it’s not like they are unicorns or five-leaf clovers.
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Alicia
Where are the black businesses to hire people?
—————————————————————————————–
Maybe the black people who could start black businesses and would hire black people are too busy running around the internet complaining about the lack of black businesses?
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When did kiwi become a troll?
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“What’s wrong with US and what are doing so wrong that we’re vulnerable and have to be subjected to this?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@Alicia
Plain talk.
What’s wrong with us is that our unity is WEAK and our community is non-existent! That makes us easy targets – like shooting fish in a barrel – for any group that wants to come along and mistreat us. They couldn’t do it so readily without our cooperation.
None of this is going to change until WE wake up and change the way we are, what we do and how/what we THINK.
What are we doing wrong?
Living amongst people who do not mean us any good… even some of our own.
We’ve adopted their ways and values… while we’ve lost our own African roots because we were duped into seeing everything AFRICAN as inferior.
Integration is bad. We were better off as a community when we were segregated with rich and poor black folks living in the same neighborhoods – sometimes with 3 and 4 generations of a family living in the same household. We had stronger bonds, connections, then, than we have today. “Family,” in my opinion, meant more.
We bought the lie, that integration would solve America’s race problem. Clearly it hasn’t. I think today we’re more separated as a people than we’ve EVER been.
I’m not saying things were great for black people, then. I’m saying that we were more TOGETHER, then.
It’s exactly like Trojan Pam and some others have said here many times, we’ve got to wake up out of our slumber of confusion.
ALL of us.
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@King
I agree. Black-owned businesses are not purple unicorns. They exist and a lot more than some people tend to believe. I think the complaint should be why are not more blacks supporting them so they could then expand enough to hire more blacks etc.?
Sorry I guess this may take things off topic.
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Well, I’ve heard the Black separatist talk as well. I can say I don’t agree with it, because in my experience it doesn’t work. I’ve worked in all-Black situations (Black run from top to bottom) and there were as many problems there as anywhere else I have worked. They may not have been funneled through racist channels, but the jealous person who your on-the-job competence is showing up is going to be gunning for you no matter what colors you both are.
In fact, the most, most nasty back stab that I have ever seen done in the corporate world was done by the owner of a very successful Black-owned company, and he did it to another brother!!! Getting around all Black people is no panic for misery or mistreatment. Add to that, some people talk like the entire world is Black and White. So Blacks shouldn’t live among Latinos, or Asians, or any mix of racial background? We should ONLY live among people who look exactly like we do? Next you’ll be trying to figure out how to drive out the mixed people!
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^panacea not panic.
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Where’s biff and Randy when needed for comedic relief?
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Hi King,
My radio station comment was based on comedian Sinbad and other black entertainers stating recently in different media that there were not enough black-owned radio stations or places that black entertainers, like comedians,etc can get their start on anymore. Thanks for educating me though that there are indeed some. Maybe Sinbad and the others were saying there were not enough & not in the areas where they need to be. Many of them have been saying recently that it’s harder for black entertainers to get their start and they’re having to rely on white acceptance whereas before they had black media where they could be discovered and get their start and flourish.
I know there are some black owned businesses. I’m talking about those where blacks can be HIRED. There’s so much unemployment not just among black men, but black women, black teens and because of white supremacy, most of us know continuing in our jobs is not guaranteed. I see HATE everyday. Whites, by and large, have shown us for 100’s of years now ( probably longer) that they not only hate blacks but want us, in their eyes, on the bottom of everything, hurting, under their foot and feeling awful about ourselves.
All of these black sports stars who make often up to millions per year or every few years and managers and other people should be making an EFFORT to assist.
Black men (although it’s affecting black women too), should not be being imprisoned at the current rates. It’s sad when you go to certain areas and see so much police activity, young guys who are able-bodied and could be doing more with their lives being hand-cuffed. We are facing a crisis if you think of us as a whole. Family issues, etc. Not saying these problems are unique to us but given what we’ve faced and still face, only ourselves can help us and we need to be more vigilant.
Why aren’t we doing more to get out from under the crux ( probably not the right word) of white supremacy and anti-black oppression. We all know if civil rights programs go away, what would happen to us again in this country.
Those with the ability should be called upon to DO MORE to assist in our communities for wealth building and helping our youth. Kids in the ghettos are often failing because of negative peer pressure, issues in the home and so forth. What are the black wealthy doing or not doing why we aren’t taking this more serious?
How many more hundreds of years will other peoples sick feelings and desires for us dictate our lives?
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As for Black business, it’s more complicated than most people, on either side of the color line, think. Most successful businesses can’t afford to cater to just 12.5% of the population. And people buy things that are the best price for their budget before they start thinking about the color of the person who owns the factory who sells it. In the vast majority of cases a Black business has to be ready to make most of its sales from non-Black customers because the American population is about 87% non-Black.
Sure, there are exceptions to that. But I’m saying in MOST cases. I know a guy who owns a small restaurant chain. He started out just trying to attract Blacks. But even Black people didn’t trust a place where they were the only ones eating at. Quite by accident, some other folks stumbled on it, and after a while he got a cross mix of people. Now he’s doing a lot better and even some of his old Black customers have come back. I don’t know what that says, but it tells me that the solutions are not simple.
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Hi King,
I agree. humans are humans and there are bad apples of every color. That needs to change though or we’ll always be weak, on the bottom and vulnerable to white (or hispanic or arab or even asian) racism and oppression. Why are only a few of us conscious of this? This is insane. Why are rappers promoting that going to prison is somehow cool to young impressional black males and educated black men and others are not intercepting and seeing it for the emergency that it is? Going to prison=losing right to vote, societal issues when come out, harder to get a job, potential for sexual exploitation and so on.
I have worked with blacks before and had good experiences. I have also had some negative ones, but luckily I will say 80% of the time with a black manager or largely black staff ( non-ghetto, especially) it’s been quite good. racism-free and it was a positive atmosphere.
re:
Well, I’ve heard the Black separatist talk as well. I can say I don’t agree with it, because in my experience it doesn’t work. I’ve worked in all-Black situations (Black run from top to bottom) and there were as many problems there as anywhere else I have worked. They may not have been funneled through racist channels, but the jealous person who your on-the-job competence is showing up is going to be gunning for you no matter what colors you both are.
In fact, the most, most nasty back stab that I have ever seen done in the corporate world was done by the owner of a very successful Black-owned company, and he did it to another brother!!! Getting around all Black people is no panic for misery or mistreatment. Add to that, some people talk like the entire world is Black and White. So Blacks shouldn’t live among Latinos, or Asians, or any mix of racial background? We should ONLY live among people who look exactly like we do? Next you’ll be trying to figure out how to drive out the mixed people!
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Well Alicia, I agree with you that there are not enough Black-owned businesses. But then again, most businesses (including Black ones) fail, so it may not be because people aren’t trying.
I think TIMING plays a big part. What I mean by that is that when an idea or concept takes off, there is a lot more space at the starting line. For example, when the concept of Fast Food Restaurants became popular, THAT was the best time to try to become a huge player in that industry. But once the market has been divided up by preferences, habit, and brand loyalty, it’s a lot harder to take a significant market share. And if you do manage it, you will probably still be bought out by one of the bigger guys in the end.
Blacks were systematically excluded from many industries at the time they were exploding with potential. That is why today it’s so hard to have a Black Coca Cola, GE, or Halliburton. 100 years is a big head start to try and overcome. And nobody cares how unfair it is.
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Bingo and I realize I probably need to do more to support black business myself. I do buy hair-care products made by a black company, if there were more everyday stores ( especially grocery or others), I would definitely support them.
We need more black businesses that can hire blacks, alleviating black unemployment and issues we face on the job.
Re:
sharinalr
@King
I agree. Black-owned businesses are not purple unicorns. They exist and a lot more than some people tend to believe. I think the complaint should be why are not more blacks supporting them so they could then expand enough to hire more blacks etc.?
Sorry I guess this may take things off topic.
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Beats Electronics is a good example a recently meteoric Black-owned company that did everything right.
But, of course, they were snapped up by Apple.
Black no more.
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Thanks King, I guess you are right and have educated me on the two topics ( black owned radios stations and media and businesses in general). Hopefully in time, we will have more that can hire and assist blacks. Its ridiculous what we face in white corporate America.
Re:
King
Well Alicia, I agree with you that there are not enough Black-owned businesses. But then again, most businesses (including Black ones) fail, so it may not be because people aren’t trying.
I think TIMING plays a big part. What I mean by that is that when an idea or concept takes off, there is a lot more space at the starting line. For example, when the concept of Fast Food Restaurants became popular, THAT was the best time to try to become a huge player in that industry. But once the market has been divided up by preferences, habit, and brand loyalty, it’s a lot harder to take a significant market share. And if you do manage it, you will probably still be bought out by one of the bigger guys in the end.
Blacks were systematically excluded from many industries at the time they were exploding with potential. That is why today it’s so hard to have a Black Coca Cola, GE, or Halliburton. 100 years is a big head start to try and overcome. And nobody cares how unfair it is.
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Alicia,
Like I said, definitely no community and certainly less unity amongst Black people TODAY, than there was in times past!
I suspect Black Wall Street had a few black haters back in the day, but my guess is that there are far more whiteness aligned followers today that have some sort of emotional investment with (or in) white people.
And that’s okay.. to each his own.. as long as they don’t bring their mess (confusion and weak arguments) to the formation and organization of the new all Black free enterprise economic zone, meeting as there will be no haters permitted there.
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Hi Just Me:
I bolded the sections that I know are so true. We have to do better. That needs to be discussed and on everyone’s mind 24/7!. I keep running into Blacks who are so excited to be traveling to a European country and I’m baffled. I used to want to go to, I mean we all love to travel. But many talk about them as if they’re superior. The funny thing is it’s hard for blacks in these nations to get a job, have a livelihood. Whites, whereever they are, tend to want to marginalize blacks. They never mention any Asian nations and only certain latin nations get mentioned. So many have bought into everything in terms of white supremacy.
I guess this is the point for us as a group “None of this is going to change until WE wake up and change the way we are, what we do and how/what we THINK.”
Re:
Just Me
“What’s wrong with US and what are doing so wrong that we’re vulnerable and have to be subjected to this?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@Alicia
Plain talk.
What’s wrong with us is that our unity is WEAK and our community is non-existent! That makes us easy targets – like shooting fish in a barrel – for any group that wants to come along and mistreat us. They couldn’t do it so readily without our cooperation.
None of this is going to change until WE wake up and change the way we are, what we do and how/what we THINK.
What are we doing wrong?
Living amongst people who do not mean us any good… even some of our own.
We’ve adopted their ways and values… while we’ve lost our own African roots because we were duped into seeing everything AFRICAN as inferior.
Integration is bad. We were better off as a community when we were segregated with rich and poor black folks living in the same neighborhoods – sometimes with 3 and 4 generations of a family living in the same household. We had stronger bonds, connections, then, than we have today. “Family,” in my opinion, meant more.
We bought the lie, that integration would solve America’s race problem. Clearly it hasn’t. I think today we’re more separated as a people than we’ve EVER been.
I’m not saying things were great for black people, then. I’m saying that we were more TOGETHER, then.
It’s exactly like Trojan Pam and some others have said here many times, we’ve got to wake up out of our slumber of confusion.
ALL of us.
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Just Me:
I know Just me, but I think we are in a crisis, relying on people who by and large (not saying all whites or white-minded people are racist, but most and culturally) hate us! I have two white men on my job who randomly discuss living in different African nations and how much they want to go back.
HA!
Both of these men have a hostility to black men and blacks in general and most importantly, are quiet white supremacists. We are dealing with some SERIOUS hate and mental sickness.
I’m doing alot of rambling, maybe when I have free time I should discuss some of the wealthy entertainers and sports stars and ask them to do more. I’m sure they get various letters all the time. I know Oprah and Tyler Perry do do what they can, but I just feel..well you said it..many in our community are in a state of confusion.
I don’t enjoy being under the yoke of white supremacy. As a black woman, as a black person who as an adult has faced this for 10+ years I am baffled by the WHYS, and my future, hold long I can hold on taking this type of treatment. About my job. I also am concerned at trends going on amongst blacks such as young males being arrested, getting into criminal activity, going to jail. young girls having kids too young which affects them economically. Problems in the family unit among us and so much other problems.
We can learn a little from Hispanics coming in now on the benefit of being family oriented ( heck, I and many, even if raised in single-parents home, have always been family oriented). Sticking together and supporting our own.
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Another thing about Black business, and this is the real truth for people who want to succeed with one:
We have a tendency to go for direct-to-customer businesses. We like to open restaurants, and small stores etc. But honestly, where Blacks can do very well, these days is to open businesses that can service the public sector / government contracts. You see, one place where integration has been most successful is in the federal, state, and local governments.
So, it used to be that contracts would always go to Whites from other Whites. But today, more and more businesses are finding that the panels that grant these contracts are more very diverse. Many are now breaking the monopolies and giving contracts to minority and female-owned businesses. It’s only fair after so many years of them being locked out. I have been in the room during debriefs when the team has admitted that they didn’t get the contract because they were a group of old White men trying to convince a gender-mixed, racially diverse, panel to give them more money.
So, a Black business may be MUCH more successful getting a few 2-year catering contracts from the City than opening a little restaurant on the corner/ But most Blacks still don’t know this, And they wouldn’t dream that they could get hundreds of thousands of dollars a year preparing and serving meals for city related meetings and special events.
Hosea 4:6 My people perish for lack of knowledge …
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interesting point King. I guess those who research can find that out somehow. Hopefully that info gets out to people who are considering starting a business. You mentioned the fact that most businesses fail, which makes it so risky and I guess now that many blacks with new found wealth or new found funds period are not ready for the risk. However, I realize it will take time, I just hope most others will put this on the agenda. Black managers as well. I know some who do, but I just wish more were more conscious that other blacks NEED HELP given the society and world we live in.
A guy recently was mentioning how Hispanics don’t like to hire blacks where he lived in California. I mean I had an idea about that but it ticks me off that we are so vulnerable to other peoples issues and other people who hold onto white supremacy. I guess given our recent history, unity or no unity, it will takes years and hopefully as time goes by we aren’t so weak and vulnerable and on the bottom of everything.
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I meant to say maybe I should put words to actions and write some of the black elite and wealthy and ask what are they do..or even just research it.
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That’s complicated… Hispanics usually have quite a few of their own people waiting in line (as it were) and that’s often why. Also, depending on the situation, they may be speaking in Spanish on the job site. It’s not always that they “have it in” for Blacks per se. But obviously it will be prejudice in some cases (because of course prejudice is everywhere).
But for example, in the corporate world, I owe my biggest raises to two Hispanic Vice Presidents. So one person’s experience does not a reality make.
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@King
Very true.
@Alicia
I think that many blacks lack business knowledge and fear the failure of opening a business and having it fail and them in debt. Knowledge is key, but we must accept a business may not be a dream for many blacks.
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Just Me
I suspect Black Wall Street had a few black haters back in the day, but my guess is that there are far more whiteness aligned followers today that have some sort of emotional investment with (or in) white people.
————————————————————————————————-
Is the emotional investment really in white people?
or in the currency of white supremacy which black people exchange among each other to compensate for the lack of value we see in each other?
The concept of making your people the most valuable currency in the world is the reason National Socialist Germany and Imperial Japan had to be destroy with world war.
No one is really allowed to do that except the Jews.
Think about it?
What if your descent from African slaves brought to America was more valuable than gold to another black person? How would that affect your decision making process? Your investments?
Your purpose in life?
Thats what Adolph Hitler and his Nazi party were ALMOST able to do with Germans and thats why he had to be stopped. Once people value each other MORE than they value “money”; its all over for the people who MAKE the money;
the banks.
Right now, a black persons value to another black person is based almost entirely on the compensation they receive for their utility to the white supremacists.
“How can you kill John Wayne when you want to be John Wayne?”
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Alicia,
The black elite may or may not be helpful, but it is contingent upon sane black people to come together and behave like sane black people. Please forgive my laziness for using sane to describe the long list of things that are the prerequisite (requirements) for us becoming a viable unified economic community/force.
We have more than an economic/jobs/businesses issue. We have a *how we treat each other* (especially our own children) issue that needs to be dealt with before we can call ourselves a COMMUNITY.
It seems we’re past the age of leaders like Malcolm X, MLK Jr, Jesse Jackson, or whomever. Today it’s more like we need to be our own leaders… but in order to become an effective force (people) for our own good then we to become a critical mass of correct leaders who INTERACT on a new and different level with other likewise leaders.
In other words, individual (awakening) Black people need to become a great leader, even if it’s on the smallest of scales – learning to interact, bond, trust, respect, uplift, encourage and love those that possess this same spark of individual leadership.
Leader – a person who guides and/or inspires to do positive and constructive behaviors.
I didn’t say this would be easy, or simple. I feel your frustration! There’s about five centuries of brainwashing and confusion to be undone. This is what we need to do – for ourselves.
No one else can do it for us, not even the richest of black folks.
We have to LEARN to BE together and WORK together, or we will stay where we are.
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@King
Yes, he is the image I have of the epitome of the ultimate superhuman. He has already earned the title of the world’s best athlete. I am waiting for him to win the title of world’s best genius.
And he is an American to boot! 😛
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@Alicia,
Just want to bring up a little bit of food for thought.
Have you noticed that in lower income black neighborhoods, there is a plethora of Asian-owned businesses, particularly those that address goods and services that the residents would use on a daily basis. The exception would be ones where there is direct contact with the customers (eg, hair salons). Even then, the black hair supply and hair product market is 80-90% cornered by Korean Americans.
Note:
– the Asians were formerly middle class in their country of origin, but without education in the USA.
– formerly mostly Chinese; nowadays mostly Korean
– Whites don’t open stores there
– Middle class blacks don’t open stores there
– brain drain Asians and the children or grandchildren of the middle class Asian immigrants do not open stores there
– genuine poor or working class, whether Asian or black of course do not open stores there.
– they rarely hire local black residents as employees; in fact, they usually keep a rather hands off approach with their customers. After a period of time, some might get more involved in the community if there is pressure to do so.
These are businesses that serve a customer demographic that is >90% black, and are willing to go and operate businesses in communities with the worst police protection and worst municipal services.
Contrast this with middle class black neighborhoods, where we do see more black owned businesses.
Do you know Prince George’s County, Maryland? It is the wealthiest majority black (66%) jurisdiction in the country, and ranks in the top 60-70 counties in the nation, with a median income about 35% higher than the average white income.
(http://prospect.org/article/staggering-loss-black-wealth-due-subprime-scandal-continues-unabated)
Having said this, I think there is an advantage that “3rd race” people have in poorer black neighborhoods than either whites or blacks. They can differentiate their black customers into different segments, providing better service to those perceived to being better able to spend more. These decisions are pure business decisions, and not related to actual ties with the community.
It seems that the black middle class do not see any strong need to patronize black businesses, however, They might feel some more privilege at being able to patronize more upscale white businesses, or middle class Asian businesses (eg, nail salons).
I have more ideas about this, but was curious how you felt.
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@ Just Me & Alicia
We aren’t lacking unity. #BlackLivesMatter wouldn’t have gone viral if we weren’t united. We wouldn’t vote 8-2 for the Democrats if we weren’t united.
Our problem is very simple: Our political imagination is incoherent, and the World we want to create is unattainable. Most Africans-in-America are torn between a desire to protect the culture and interests of Black people against subsumption Antiblackness, and the desire to be members of the American Nation.
Most of us are Liberal multiculturalists, but there are several problems with this:
Firstly, a Nation is an imagnary community of people with a shared, singular, and distinct history, culture, and destiny, i.e., a Modern Ethnic Group or Tribe. Therefore, a “Multicultural Nation” is an oxymoron and impossible to create (Nations are NOT Countries, but because most Western Countries are also Nation-States, we tend to use these words interchangeably).
Secondly, when we engage in anti-racist discourse, we must assert our identity as Black People, usually juxtaposed by White People. The oppressed must distinguish themselves from their oppressors before they can confront their oppressors; they must know themselves. This is all fine and well, but it widens the already vast communal, cultural, and political gap between Whites & Blacks; the more we fight racism, the more impossible integration and assimilation becomes.
This is why the politics of the Black-American Blogosphere is rife with frustration, incoherence, contradiction, and tend to devolve into echo chambers. And this brings me to “Privilege”: the most noxiously poisonous word in Black Blogosphere Politics. There’s much I can say about what’s wrong with “Privilege”, but l’ll limit myself for now.
Privilege is to be used as DESCRIPTIVE, not PRESCRIPTIVE, discourse. Privilege describes the various manners in which people are granted resources, opportunities, and considerations by others in civic life due to their Race, Class, Gender, etc. The Privileges one is granted or denied varies with context; White People CAN be oppressed by PoCs in certain contexts, but these contexts are rare in the West since one cannot abuse power if one has little or no power to abuse. (see: Kyriarchy).
Privilege cannot be used prescribe the realization, rejection, or destruction of privilege by it’s various recipients, nor will this ever happen. In other words, telling someone to “Check their Privilege” is pointless. Informing someone of their particular Privileges is also pointless. Declaring that the Privileged must relinquish and/or use their Privileges for good is to willfully surrender our agency. If this is how you feel, than what you desire isn’t freedom, equality, emancipation, or community control. What you desire is to live under Benevolent White Supremacy at the mercy of Benevolent Masters.
Ironically, (lowercase) black Conservatism is a more coherent political imagination than its Liberal counterpart. Black Conservatives not only desire integration, they live integration culturally and politically by refusing to engage in anti-racist politics almost altogether. Though they might experience Antiblackness personally, they need only marry into White families for two or three generations to grant their descendants immunity from Antiblackness (it follows that most couldn’t care less about whether or not their grandchildren and/or great-grandchildren have dark skin because they’re “Just American”).
Black/African Nationalism is also a more coherent political imagination.
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@Alicia,
BTW, it will seem strange to the other readers here for you singlehandedly to brand people comparing the idea of the Afro-asian or Eurasian superhuman (esp. in the mind of race realists) as trolls.
At least it is technically more on topic.
You are the one who actually steered this post a bit off topic. Reread the post.
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Correction
Most Africans-in-America are torn between a desire to protect the culture and interests of Black people against subsumption & Antiblackness, and the desire to be members of the American Nation.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“BTW, it will seem strange to the other readers here for you singlehandedly to brand people comparing the idea of the Afro-asian or Eurasian superhuman (esp. in the mind of race realists) as trolls.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Really jefe,
I guess that makes me the odd person out (in your view) because Alicia’s branding is understandable and doesn’t seem at all “strange” to me.
I can at least understand why Alicia might say what she said if she hasn’t been a long time and recent reader of this blog… with all of this talk of Asian/White commingling on a site that is (or was) primarily a Black site.
BTW, would you mind specifically naming the “PEOPLE” she supposedly branded as trolls? Perhaps there’s something not working quite right in my browser’s ability in reading this page.
@ Taleoflions
Your comments are noted. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me, although I’m not yet sure to what extent I agree (in part) with them. Perhaps you and I see “unity” differently. I will re-read your words again when time permits. I hope you’ll post again.
.
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@Just me
You see this blog as a Black site?
Is this specific post a “Black” post?
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@Just Me
Thank you for reading. I’ve commented here before a few times and lurked for even longer, but that was months ago.
Personally, I define “unity” in this context as political concurrence. We aren’t a monolith, but our politics are more similar than different. The overwhelming majority of us, in my experience, are Liberal-Progressive Multiculturalists. There is a large minority of African/Black Nationalists (such as myself), and a small minority of black Conservatives. There are, of course, nuances and variation within these groups; they’re very big tents.
@Kiwi
Da Jokah was using sockpuppets? That’s a bannable offense, no?
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@Kiwi
You know, I find his rewarding a kkkiller cop lyncher with money far more disturbing than being compared to animals of the Pan genus. At least they have a sense of fairness and justice.
====
Another factor to consider is that America, and the West in general, has felt increasingly anxious about the growth of Chinese (formally Japanese) economic and millitary power. When Nation-States face a rival or enemy abroad, the men of the Nation tend to *ahem* lust for their enemy’s womenfolk. A somewhat recent example is the explosion of popularity in Arab porn in the wake of Sep/11/2001 and the Afgan-American war. The prevalence of WM/AW pairings are likely related to that dynamic as well.
Personally, I’m more curious about the Antiblack sentiments of Asian Women who hitch themselves to men like Da Jokah. Antiblackness in the absence of White Supremacy is a phenomenon in desperate need of more study.
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“Is this specific post a “Black” post?”
“You see this blog as a Black site?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’m still awaiting an answer to the question I asked you.
Did you miss it, or did you simply choose to ignore it?
As to your other question, why don’t you ask this blog’s owner?
He’s immensely more qualified to answer your question than I.
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@ Just Me
It’s easy to discover if a blog is a “Black blog” or not. You just search the comment policy forsomethingo that says only Black people can comment.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
I don’t see anything… do you?
And in the case of jefe, he has done more guest posts than anyone else on this site. That must mean that Abagond is not a race-based site. Wouldn’t you agree?
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You are not a troll, Kiwi. You often have some of the best insights on topics that Abagond posts. You see how you quickly and insightfully summed up what happened just now? It was like everyone was going along on this light hearted (but completely accurate) jaunt about White supremacy from people that want to sleep with Asian women and someone stepped in and poured cold water on everyone’s head and the whole topic changed and you became a “troll” within seconds. You’re not a troll though. Let it go.
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@King,
Just me said
Since 2011, I read every post back to 2006 and each updated comment policy since. I know this this blog has never been a black site. I see it as a very eclectic site, but with at least half the posts trying to de-whitewashing US history textbooks and the western media talking machine. Sure, some of it deals specifically with blacks, but it deals with a lot of things (eg, Islamophobia). But of course you know that already.
The current post is not at all black specific.
Apparently not.
@Just Me
Do you mean who Alicia was branding a troll? I thought it was obvious enough not to recopy it, but the link is here.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/racism-before-1400/#comment-277258
I reread the post and the comments by Kiwi and Alicia, and found that Alicia strayed more off topic than Kiwi did. Admittedly, Kiwi sometimes gets hung up the WM/AF trope, but it is rarely seriously off topic and is often relevant given the background and arguments of the race realists that invade this blog (and the race realists that dictate racist and white supremacy in the US and other western nations). Most of the comments were relevant to this post. Alicia’s comments are nevertheless valid and interesting, if not slightly less on topic. They are certainly not WAY off topic.
I might also suggest that Alicia reread the post before branding people trolls.
You asked ME whom she was branding a troll, yet, you state that you read and understood what she said. Why do you ask me then?
In any case, there is no need to be a long time reader of this blog. Each post is stand alone, but may reference previous posts (ie, in the links section). It is only necessary to read this post to respond to it.
I don’t need to. I know his answer already. I was asking your opinion.
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@ jefe
And I have probably been commenting on this set since… maybe 2007 or so? There have ALWAYS been non-Black commenters contributing here, more in the past than even now. These commenters have been both non-Black anti-racists, and non-Black racists as well. But NEVER has Abagond banned or moderated someone’s access, based on their race. Very rarely (less than 1% of all cases) has Abagond asked that only Blacks comment on a certain thread – usually to deter trolling on a very serious or personal thread.
So, concluding that Abagond is only for “Blacks” shows a failure to read and observe what us clearly and readily available on the subject.
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“You asked ME whom she was branding a troll, yet, you state that you read and understood what she said. Why do you ask me then?”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(because you either have a reading & writing comprehension issue, and/or you’re not as intelligent as some think you are)
jefe,
Again. Did you or did you not state the following?
“BTW, it will seem strange to the other readers here for you singlehandedly to brand people comparing the idea of the Afro-asian or Eurasian superhuman (esp. in the mind of race realists) as trolls.”
You wrote that Alicia was branding “PEOPLE” as trolls. You still have not specified these people she supposedly branded, Obviously I missed something because I’m only aware of ONE such person she mentioned as a troll. This is why I’m asking asking you to name the PEOPLE.
You do know that people is the plural of person. Right? So I’m interested in who the other person or persons are.
If there is no other person (aside from Kiwi) that she branded as a troll then that makes you a liar! I have no use or tolerance for liars.
Alicia simply said what she felt about what was troubling her, and you’re using that brush to paint a wider stroke than what she actually said. The point isn’t really whether or not Kiwi is a troll or how many posts anyone here has written.
No one here has ever pinned that label on him before. No one here agreed with Alicia.
The point is, in my opinion, is whether or not anyone can see why she said what she said?
I’ve never said that only blacks are welcome here or only blacks are welcome to post here. A black site – again, in my opinion – is a blog that generally posts on topics of interest to black people.
Last time I looked, Abagond was a black West Indian. Most (obviously not all) of his posts are about racism from a BLACK perspective. I could be wrong. This blog may not at all be what I thought it was.. but no one here can convince me of my error, except for Abagond himself.
@ King
I don’t like YOU much, or your sell out-ish perspectives. I wish I did, but I don’t.
I find you pretentious and disingenuous on many levels. Stay whiteness-minded if you wish, but please leave me out of your debilitating comatose consciousness.
Going forward, I would like it if you would not address me directly, or indirectly. Don’t talk to me. I’m not interested in going round and round debating or explaining anything to you. It would be a waste of my time and not have a constructive outcome.
Should you ever wake the heck up, I’d be willing to communicate with you. Otherwise, we can agree to leave each other be. Thank you.
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Kiwi
I hate to sound dramatic, but it felt like destiny had brought me here… which I know sounds completely stupid – because it is.
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Such is the nature of the system of white supremacy that non white people often find themselves in the same places even when they are not seeking each other.
I “discovered” my first Asian American website because the google link mentioned “AAs” in the news room and I clicked on it because I thought it meant African American.
That is where I learned about the difficulties experienced by Asian American MEN trying to become reporters, journalists and newscasters…
White people prefer Asian women in the news room.
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The anti-Black but pro-Asian woman case study is compelling simply because it is so counterintuitive. The level of cognitive dissonance necessary to maintain such a contradiction is astounding. That is why it is so interesting to discuss. On one hand, it demonstrates how racism is eroding at it’s edges into inter-marrying, inter-breeding racists! On the other hand it demonstrates how racism can persist even in those who many would otherwise think could not be racist, due to their choice of spouse and racially mixed children.
Obviously anything can be over discussed. But I brought up the subject this time in response to this statement.
And the ONLY case I was aware of were “Race Realists,” many of whom are married to Asian women. They are the only racist that I know who seem to think that another race is superior to their own. So, that is how it came up in this particular conversation about race. Kiwi, as a young, single, hetero, Asian guy is going to be more directly effected by the WM/AF disparity—in the same way that a young Black man who can’t get a job will be more focused on workplace discrimination issues. We are all most focused on where the sword of racism cuts our own flesh.. but make no mistake, it is the same sword we are discussing.
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@Alicia: Kiwi is not a troll if have been on this blog you would know he is one of the most brightest posters on this site and he is very objective in regards to social issues. You got it wrong there.
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@Kiwi
Why did you find it shocking and horrifying if I may ask? Were you lamenting the continued admiration and submission to White Masculinity & Supremacy by Asian Women in America, even with men as repugnant as Randy? Was it fear that an Antiblack animus was growing among Asian Woman and Asian People more generally? Was it a raw feeling of “Race Betrayal”, for lack of a better term? Something else? All of the above?
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@Kiwi
Its the black mans job to hold everyone to account; including himself. Does this sometimes result in a circular race war?
Yes.
When I get out of line I expect you to slap the sh*t outta me; If you don’t, I might just slap the sh*t outta you for being a slacker.
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My $0.02:
I think that this is a site with a particular focus on the struggles and history of Black people in the US and the West, but it also has the good sense to make connection to the struggles of Nonblack PoCs against racism, White Supremacy, and Western Dominance of the world.
Dr. Gerald Horne articulates this point much better than I can, and I encourage you to watch his interviews (Real News Network) and presentations (Howard University) on Youtube, but the long and short of it is this: African Americans have politically isolated ourselves from the Human Rights Struggles of the world since the collapse of the Black Freedom Movement at the hands of Cointelpro and the co-option of the NAACP by bourgeois neoliberalism. This is monumentally disastrous because whenever we had made headway in improving our condition, it was through the alliances we forged with America’s rivals and enemies: The Japanese Empire, the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, and others.
Abagond has the wisdom to reestablish our international connections in whatever ways he can, which we need now more than ever. Otherwise, we are firmly in America’s grasp. If Black People don’t reach out towards humanity at large, no one will come to our aid when America decides that she can have her way with us.
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@Just Me,
Yep, just maybe.
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@Kiwi
the problem is not “racism”. the problem is that there are racial differences which benefit black men, white man and not asian men, that benefit asian females but not black females, that benefit blacks at a whole as they are the people with by far the highest average TFR and not asians who as a whole have the lowerst average TFR. one might also say that this is no “problem” it is as it is
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@Kiwi
Thank you for sharing brother. Lately there have been misapplications of Feminist Theory that vilifies Asian Men for feeling and saying what you do. There needs to be more open dialogue one this issue.
I remember when Riverside_Rob tried to pass himself off as some homeless, down-on-his-luck Christian trying to make peace between the races. So much for that.
Da Jokah was one of the last people I spoke to before I left the blog for about a year. In response to my burgeoning radicalism, he chided me and said I should be strictly pacifist like Gandhi. It’s fitting for a vulture with a brother’s blood on his hands to suggest that I follow in the footsteps of that hypocritical pig of a man who ought to have died in obscurity.
=====
My opinion on violence:
I attended a majority White Public Grade School in rural Pennsylvania all my childhood life. When Black people attend White schools, we are trained to accept and protect the White Racial Frame. Sometimes, this gloriously backfires (like when your White guidance counselor “forgets” to fax your college transcripts to fight against Affirmative Action, except the one for the HBCU: Howard U.), but you never forget what you overhear. The theme, the anthem, the mantra that School District hammered into the heads of White children goes like this:
“Freedom isn’t free. Freedom is purchased with the blood of tyrants and patriots. Liberty or Death.”
White Americans are groomed from childhood to use violent means to achieve their ends. Not all of them walk that path, but enough of them do. This is why there’re so many guns in the country. That’s why some 300 brothers are lynched by kkkiller cops every year. That’s why millions of Afghans and Iraqis are dead and dying by the thousands in response to an attack that the World’s Muslim Community all but universally denounced at the time.
We, otoh, are conditioned to be pacifist, to idolize MLK because he was a pacifist, and demonize Malcolm X and Nate Turner in contrast. But according to their holy mantra, for them to demand pacifism on our part is to suggest that Black Lives don’t matter enough to fight for and Black Freedom isn’t worth dying for.
The reality is that we live under the yoke of a Nation that is Colonialist, Antiasian, Antiblack, and extremely violent. I believe we must organize to combat this and cautiously embrace their mantra. Not to dominate others or met out base revenge for those who have fallen, but to defend our humanity and our existence on Planet Earth from men like Darren Wilson and George Zimmerman. Men who have no respect for the sanctity of life have no respect for guns and aren’t prepared to die by the arms they live by.
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Kiwi said,
“And the ONLY case I was aware of were “Race Realists,” many of whom are married to Asian women. They are the only racist that I know who seem to think that another race is superior to their own”
I’ve known white people who say such things about Asian men and women, usually braindrain groups like Indians: “Indians are so smart. I know an Indian guy at work and he’s so smart”. Of course if they knew Indians who didn’t come over here as braindrain and who aren’t high caste (a lot of Indians who have prestigious jobs here are surprise surprise high caste) i.e. people who can’t afford the plane ticket over, have lived their lives in extreme poverty, and are illiterate and suffering from malnutrition, they would lump Indians etc. with Blacks and Mexicans. I don’t think the white people are being sincere in their admiration either. It’s probably colonial condescension.
Saying that foreign women are preferable to U.S. white women is extremely typical of men who advocate marrying mail-order brides. I’ve seen websites where they don’t favor Asian women, just any non-U.S./non Western European woman.
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@tale of lions
“Informing someone of their particular Privileges is also pointless.”
I disagree. Teaching people about how privilege and oppression work and which of the two applies to them in various categories allows people to understand how the world works: a bunch of categories set up in binaries of superior/inferior all to prop up capitalism. Learning this made me miserable but it allowed me to understand the forces working in social interactions and to make informed decisions in life.
I agree with you that waiting for white people to do anything to help people of color is pointless.
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@Speak Out
Let me clarify: we need to recognize the difference between someone asking questions with a genuine interest in learing, and those who are hardline deniers. When you engage a denier understand that they will never capitulate, your objective is to demonstrate the validity of the theory to the audience, not the adversary. Trying to convince a denier is a formula for frustration. That frustration makes us hostile towards those asking sincere questions and those who are reevaluating our understanding of the world, damaging our prospects for effective political action.
If Critical Theory is a social science, and social science is a true science, then it is fallible and the theoretical frameworks therein must be subjected to the same ruthless scrutiny as those in the STEM disciplines. We should not become wroth everytime someone challenges our current understanding; if you are practicing real science, you ought to be challenging the framework yourself every now and again rather than taking “the truth” as you know it for granted.
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Wow, my ears are burning. I have been with the in-laws for the Lunar New Year holidays. I know I am generally known here as one of the evil “racists”.
However, even for me, race is a tricky issue to know how to deal with. It’s not black or white (though it deals with blacks, whites and others).
I believe all people are endowed with basic human dignity by their Creator, whose image they are made in. As a Christian, I believe that God will raise up followers from all kinds of peoples, and that the rich have a very difficult route to reach salvation and that few among the wise of this world are called, which if anything means that whites and East Asians may (on average) have more stumbling blocks in their way to know God.
On the other hand, it seems to me the basic replacement of worship of God with worship of “equalism” in the West is especially damaging to society, particularly full scale rejection of biblical gender roles. Gender differences and HBD seem to be supported by very clear evidence, though specific details and implications can be subject to a lot of differing interpretations.
What does it all mean? What is the best way to live the life I’ve been given on this earth in light of the above? I’m still trying to figure all of that out. However, the world I see emerging, though there are of course technological and economic advances, is generally much more debased and godless (even the current pope seems to be fine with homosexual marriage, Islam and other abominations) and a much worse place in many respects. Is all of this necessary for the end times to be revealed? I’m not sure. I’m just trying to follow along and make sense of it all.
As to why I chose to marry an Asian, I’ve explained my reasoning before. I was not finding attractive white girls who were keeping themselves chaste. Eventually, I married in to a culture that I respected quite a bit, and I thought my children would just be an expression of what I am, an egg (white on the outside but yellow on the inside)–I already considered myself to be half Asian. The lack of suitable white girls has a lot to do with the social degradation taking place in the West (as partly described above), and doesn’t seem indicative of white superiority, certainly. I don’t know what the others’ reasoning was, but it is interesting that so many of the commentators who seem to be “race realists” to some degree have actually chosen Asian wives/gfs, rather than focusing on maintaining pure white lineage.
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it is interesting that so many of the commentators who seem to be “race realists” to some degree have actually chosen Asian wives/gfs, rather than focusing on maintaining pure white lineage.
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Thats irrelevant.
The key is, are you working to expand the definition of “white person” to cover your children?
If so,
how?
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thwack. I’m not actively working to “expand” the definition of “white person”. My boys likely won’t pass for full white. I’ll be interested to see who they marry, however. If they have kids with white women, their kids could likely pass as more or less full white. If they go Asian, (more likely because they are boys) their kids would likely pass as full Asian (like Bruce Lee).
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biff
thwack, I’m not actively working to “expand” the definition of “white person”.
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Why not?
Don’t you want your children to get the same benefits you do?
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“thwack said:
Why not?
Don’t you want your children to get the same benefits you do?”
I guess I don’t really see it that way. It’s not like every white kid gets a benefit card entitling them to a free ride in life. Whether they choose to hang out more with whites or Asians is up to them. I hope they will be able to do what they want. I guess I wouldn’t emphasize their half-Asian ancestry when applying for schools, but we’ll cross that bridge when we get there, and, ultimately, I’ll let them make their own choice for how they choose to define themselves.
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So you don’t want your children to get the same benefits you do?
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Haha!! NICE cartoon Kiwi! The best I’ve seen on the subject!
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Hmm, I just found it depressing. Illuminating, but depressing.
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thwack, no. Of course, I want them to have more benefits than I did.
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It seems like someone just admitted that Asian Americans are discriminated against when applying to universities.
Eurasians with white fathers can hide their Asian ancestry more easily, at least on paper.
Maybe that might explain why children of white fathers and Asian mothers are more a master race, compared to those with Asian fathers and white mothers. They can access their father’s white privilege in areas where it counts.
However, I don’t think it is better for them psychologically, as the cartoon illustrates. After a lifetime of Asian male bashing from his parents he will finally grow up and find the world treats him as an Asian man, regardless how much he tries to hide it on paper.
At least the son of an Asian father and white mother should be subject to less Asian male bashing in childhood. I’ve seen exceptions, esp. in cases where the white mother is the breadwinner of the family, or somehow promotes racial hierarchical theory.
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biff
thwack, no. Of course, I want them to have more benefits than I did.
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What are you DOING to prevent your children from being mistreated on the basis of color by the white people who PRACTICE white supremacy?
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“What are you DOING to prevent your children from being mistreated on the basis of color by the white people who PRACTICE white supremacy?”
That hasn’t been a problem for my kids thus far. They haven’t been around a lot of white people except my family members. As to what I do to help prevent my children from being mistreated by Asians, well I dress up a bit and bring in my business card to show the teachers and principal that I’m not just a run of the mill layabout soldier or English teacher.
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jefe said:
“Eurasians with white fathers can hide their Asian ancestry more easily, at least on paper.
Maybe that might explain why children of white fathers and Asian mothers are more a master race, compared to those with Asian fathers and white mothers. They can access their father’s white privilege in areas where it counts.”
This is the intersection of white privilege and male privilege, which men of color are notorious for being blind to.
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biff
“What are you DOING to prevent your children from being mistreated on the basis of color by the white people who PRACTICE white supremacy?”
That hasn’t been a problem for my kids thus far.
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Why not?
Are you telling them which white people are the white supremacists (terrorists)?
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@taleoflions
“If Critical Theory is a social science, and social science is a true science, then it is fallible and the theoretical frameworks therein must be subjected to the same ruthless scrutiny as those in the STEM disciplines. We should not become wroth everytime someone challenges our current understanding; if you are practicing real science, you ought to be challenging the framework yourself every now and again rather than taking “the truth” as you know it for granted.”
I don’t believe anything is “true science” or “objective”. I see both “social science” and “science” as forms of knowledge production, both with central dogmas that are accepted as truth because people gathered enough allies who agreed with them, and both punishing people who present truths that make those with power uncomfortable.
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@Kiwi
That’s the same kind of hypocrisy you find from men of color who like to complain about racism and even achieve high-profile positions in civil rights organizations, but go for the most European looking woman they can get.
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Biff said:
“I thought my children would just be an expression of what I am, an egg (white on the outside but yellow on the inside)–I already considered myself to be half Asian.”
I can’t stand people like this. There is nothing white people could ever do that would ever make them anything other than white–not marrying a person of color, not having mixed race children, not feeling that you are a person of color inside, not telling yourself that you were a person of color in a past life, not living in a community with lots of people of color.
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@ Speak Out
Yes, science does require the use of axioms, which can be dogmatic and very difficult to overturn or reconsider. It is vital that we reassess whatever axioms we use when we make sense of the world.
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@Speak Out
In my interpretation of the Scientific Method, science is an intellectual discipline and/or process that we use to understand the laws that govern Humanity and the Cosmos. Einstein didn’t invent E=mc^2, Newton didn’t invent F=ma, Marx didn’t invent Class Conflict, they discovered them. The methods they used to make their discovery; that is “true science”, not the discoveries themselves.
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That kind of solves the question of how White ‘race realists’ can consider Asians to be genetically superior to Whites. They have half identified themselves as members of the superior grouping. Fascinating!
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Biff has not expanded the definition of Whiteness for his children, he has instead expanded the definition of Asianess for himself.
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Not really; Ive said far more ridiculous things to get a girl naked and horizontal.
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@ thwack
I see what you’ve done, with this particular line of questioning, to poor biff (and I approve)
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My mom is part goat; we call her nanna.
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Yes, the Goat of Mendes, no doubt…
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@Kiwi
The only reason we care about how they treat us is because the West controls an obscene amount of resources and capital via multinationals, and projects American culture onto the World via Hollywood. Once we wrest control of African and Asian resources out of Western hands and produce & consume media that validates our people, cultures, & history, their prejudice wouldn’t be able to hurt us or our descendents anymore.
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Kiwi said: “He already answered your question. Whites do not accept his children, so he lives in Asia, where they’ll be better accepted. All he has to do is dress up and flash his business card to receive red carpet treatment from Asians. The whole irony, though, is that even Asian parents who do the same thing cannot prevent their children from being mistreated by whites.”
I’m not that worried about my kids not being accepted by whites. However, schooling is great and free where I am. In the States, you either pay 30-50K per kid per year to keep them away from too many NAMs or a large amount of money on a house and property taxes to be in a school district that keeps out too many NAMs. That’s the unfortunate way it is. Even for liberal whites who believe “equalism” in principle. I went to majority NAM public schools myself. We had riot police and helicopters overhead at one point due to constant gang fights between the black and Mexican gangs. I was insulated from most of that by being in classes for the gifted, but I’ve heard the program I was in was dismantled because it was deemed to be too “elitist”.
It’s really not the white kids that parents are concerned about…
thwack said “Why not?
Are you telling them which white people are the white supremacists (terrorists)?”
I haven’t met people like this. If I do meet some clan members who are burning crosses in front of the houses of half-Asians, I’ll be sure to warn my kids.
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If I do meet some clan members who are burning crosses in front of the houses of half-Asians, I’ll be sure to warn my kids.
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I suspect white people like Biff stoke and stir inter Asian conflict and squabbling when ever the opportunity presents itself and his children don’t understand (yet) he’s practicing white supremacy.
White people are very skilled at the game of “lets you and him fight.”
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Kiwi:
Of course everyone will say it’s about “quality”, and it is. However, there’s a strong, undeniable correlation between quality and NAM percentage in most cases. I thought you’d be the first to call out white liberals for the “quality” school game, but I suppose you would do the same thing yourself (if you were, hypothetically, to have kids of your own.)
thwack:
That’s just plain ridiculous. I have no interest in “inter-Asian” conflict whatsoever.
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biff
That’s just plain ridiculous. I have no interest in “inter-Asian” conflict whatsoever.
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Exactly; because thats how you practice racism.
You stayed up all night and jacked off 3 times when the Berlin wall came down and Germany was unified.
But you have “no interest in “inter-Asian” conflict whatsoever” because you want them to remain divided and squabbling with each other.
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Kiwi said:
“I noticed, too. Whites like biff will play up tensions between different Asian ethnicities to highlight Asian racism but purposely ignore the fact that whites have also divided themselves for racial reasons. They have to avoid facing the fact that “race” is a very artificial, fluid social construct that has been shaped through time by ever-changing, blurry boundaries and self-contradictions.”
This is just a bizarre, unreasoned and hypocritical statement. You say that “race” is artificial, but still try to compare whites and “Asians” as if “Asians” were a comparable group. “Asians” is a designation that is a social construct and covers a very diverse group of people making up more than half the world’s population. If we are talking about East Asians, the global population is more similar to that of whites and you don’t get huge IQ variations (the way you do if you try to lump e.g., Chinese and Pakistanis in the same racial category). If East Asia decided to unify tomorrow, I wouldn’t shed any tears (though it would essentially mean Chinese domination of that group). If I explain why that won’t happen, that doesn’t make me the cause of Asian racial divisions or someone who is in favor of them. I think I’m actually more in tune with the way real Asians in Asia think about ethnicity and race than either you or thwack.
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Biff
I’m actually more in tune with the way real Asians in Asia think about ethnicity and race than either you or thwack.
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Adolph Hitler
I’m actually more in tune with the way real white people in Europe think about ethnicity and race than either Churchhill or Roosevelt.
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@ thwack
You know what’s funny? Hitler is valorized by White Supremacists, but the truth is he didn’t give a flying f*ck about White people. The Third Reich made no distinction between combatants and civilians, most of whom were White. He only cared about Germans, the rest of them were to be starved to death so there’d be surplus crops for the German people
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum
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Kiwi said “So I’ll give it one more try: How many races are there?”
Kiwi, how many colors are there? I’ll wait for your answer.
If there is an infinite spectrum, does that mean colors don’t exist? Is it wrong to classify different colors as red, blue, green or yellow when those terms aren’t specific? or to generalize lighter vs. darker colors?
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@Kiwi
(http://youtu.be/f4sDGL0woyQ)
In order to perform science, one has to be remarkably humble and accept that everything they believe about the world is wrong; “Nothing is True”. Einstein’s greatest failing was that he lacked this humility. He wasted away his life trying to disprove the Uncertainty Principle on a gut feeling he held very dear, “God does not play dice”. There’s little point in arguing with HBD and other pseudoscience advocates. Pseudoscience feeds off the pride and narcissism of those who put their faith in it. The most you can do is set straight those who’re beginning down that path, but people like biff are too far gone.
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@Kiwi
Case in point, biff says this:
What his alluding to is a cline, which accurately describes the variation of human genomics from region to region
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline_(biology)
What he doesn’t know (and will never accept) is that clines make the delineation of Human subspecies, i.e., race and/or breed impossible. Homo sapiens sapiens are already a subspecies; one of our sister breeds was the Neanderthal.
(http://youtu.be/IzuKlZf1qXU)
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What it means is that almost NOTHING is PURE Red, pure, yellow, or pure violet. It means that 99.9% of all color falls *between* any set points you wish to designate along the gradient of the color spectrum. So that saying that something is “red” does not tell you what color it is, it just tells you what range of color it falls into, with almost infinite variations to choose from within the designated range.
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The color names that we use exist as general hue categories, not as absolute and discrete definitions.
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I have a comment in moderation.
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Therefore most of the generalizations we make about specific colors are wrongheaded. Is Blue a depressing color? Is Green a soothing color? Is Gray a boring color? It depend on which Blue, which Green, or which Gray. It turns out that when most people are assigning moods or qualities to a color, they have one narrow and specific hue in mind—not realizing that there are many more shades, within the definition, that do not conform to their descriptions than that do.
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“As for Black business, it’s more complicated than most people, on either side of the color line, think. Most successful businesses can’t afford to cater to just 12.5% of the population. And people buy things that are the best price for their budget before they start thinking about the color of the person who owns the factory who sells it. In the vast majority of cases a Black business has to be ready to make most of its sales from non-Black customers because the American population is about 87% non-Black.”
Sure, there are exceptions to that. But I’m saying in MOST cases.”
Um, no. There is PLENTY of money to be made from “12.5% of the population.” Please don’t make facile platitudes like that without researching the issue first.
“Sometime in 2013, the African American consumer market exceeded the trillion dollar mark for the first time. To put this figure in perspective, that market is larger than the market for the entire nation of Spain…Because of this economic reality, a wide variety of contemporary companies continually create marketing campaigns to effectively reach this important segment of the U.S. consumer market.”
Feel free to read this article:
http://www.blackpast.org/perspectives/trillion-dollar-african-american-consumer-market-economic-empowerment-or-economic-depen
“The Trillion Dollar African American Consumer Market: Economic Empowerment or Economic Dependency?”
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@Alicia We need to know about the HISTORY of racism so that we don’t sound like you, ENTIRELY ignorant of WHY people of African descent are hearing and experiencing some of the things we are experiencing when they come DIRECTLY from racial chattel slavery. In Africa, enslaved young women could eventually marry into their owner’s lineage and their children would become heirs. When an enslaved woman became pregnant with her Arab captors child she was granted privileged rights and the child however would have prospered from the wealth of the father and given rights of INHERITANCE. The imposition of lifetime hereditary racial chattel slavery on African American was dependent on the denial of the English Common Law. In English law you always inherited the status of your father: if your father was free, you were free. In Virginia in the 1660s, they turned that around to make a special exception and said that these workers will inherit the status of their mother, which means that the mixed race child of a African servant woman inherits their unfree status. This shifted Africans in America going from indentured servitude to lifelong slavery to heredity slavery, where not only were they enslaved but their children’s children into perpetuity as well.
Races were created to legitimize enslaving black people in chattel slavery before they were ever born, in the face of American Enlightenment ideals about ALL HUMANS having unalienable rights. hereditary slavery was EXTREMELY unusual in this world BEFORE chattel slavery. The racialized sexist stereotypes about Black female sexuality have NOT changed significantly since racial chattel slavery. Since the institution of racial chattel slavery depended on Black women to supply future slaves, slave masters used every method imaginable, especially rape, to force slave women to reproduce. We STILL not seen as suitable, valid, or ideals mothers or wives: we are STILL seen as “breeders.” Three dominant stereotypes of Black women have been identified as (1) Mammy, (2) Jezebel, and (3) Sapphire. Scholars have also identified the stereotype of pickaninnies, which is specifically associated with Black children.
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@Alicia
As for some of the things you experience with the disgusting racist and misogynist white males at your job:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/towards-the-end-of-aunt-jemima/
The stereotypes of Aunt Jemima/Mammy are the most insidious that black women continue to have to challenge, fight, and suffer from:
-The happy slave
-The devoted servant
-The happy non-white
-The natural-born cook
-The mental inferior
-The woman who is so ugly in appearance that she is no one a man would want to romance, love, or bring into his life or show off around his male buddies/friends
Aunt Jemima would also be the happy-go-lucky, clowning, grinning, childlike, soulful, hostile [but wary] perpetual servile slave.
Other attributes of Aunt Jemima/Mammy are the following:
-Strong, kind, loyal
-Obese, almost cow-like in image
-Slatternly, lazy and filthy in her appearance
-Her dark skin was mocked with a greasy eye-blinding shine
-Asexual, unattractive, matronly in appearance
-Always the “motherly type”—-but, not the type for a man to marry
-Good-humored to a fault, never had reason to cry or experience sorrow
-The ubiquitous head rag (which incidentally, was originally a West African GELE headwrap worn by black Africans, but made into a pernicious stereotype by WHITE PEOPLE during slavery and by media ads of the 20th Century). This image gave way to the phrase “handkerchief head.”
http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/collins.htm
Click to access controlling.pdf
“In the post–World War II era, increasing numbers of white women entered the labor market, limited their fertility, and generally challenged their proscribed roles in white patriarchal institutions. The image of the Black matriarch emerged at that time as a powerful symbol for both Black and white women of what can go wrong if white patriarchal power is challenged. Aggressive, assertive women are penalized—they are abandoned by their men, end up impoverished, and are stigmatized as being unfeminine.” – “Controlling Images and Black Women’s Oppression” by Patricia Hill Collins.
http://www.arte-sana.com/articles/mammy_sapphire.htm
“The myths of Mammy, Jezebel and Sapphire “have their roots in negative anti-woman mythology.” Moreover, at any time, each of these images is used to characterize African American women in a monolithic image. Consequently, many people find it difficult to appreciate the diversity of African American women and instead impose identities based on negative stereotypes.”
“While the Jezebel stereotype most clearly supports the sexual exploitation of African American women, the other two stereotypes ALSO promote this subjugation. Mammy’s harassment claims would go unheard because no one would believe that a man would desire an asexual woman. Similarly, Sapphire’s claims of sexual abuse would be overshadowed by her “reputation for deception, lying and lack of loyalty.””
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@Alicia: A) ninety percent of what Americans read, watch and listen to is controlled by only SIX media companies B) In 1983, it was FIFTY media companies C) Today’s media companies appear to be part of larger corporate conglomerates that are violating anti-trust laws. Example? General Electric, which not only co-owns Universal Entertainment – the home of Def Jam and Interscope Records – but is ALSO the nation’s largest weapons manufacturer as well as a huge investor in the private prison industry.D) These super-conglomerate corporations appear to be a tool for imprisoning and criminalizing the masses, particularly black people.
The frightening and dangerous atmosphere in this country is exactly like that of the run up to Nazi Germany where Jews were scapegoated and blamed for all of the ills of the country.The greedy, sociopathic white corporate racists running this country are proliferating one-dimensional and largely negative ideas about all people of African descent to fill their prisons. I wouldn’t be surprised if martial law and militarization on the scale of Ferguson are instituted in Black communities someday soon. Nor would I be shocked to see Black folks of ALL socioeconomic classes arrested in mass numbers and placed internment camps. And there would be no outcry from the general public – especially whites – because people have been conditioned, programmed and brainwashed via the white mainstream media machine believe that Black people are Public Enemy #1.This is some straight up psychological warfare shxt and we can’t afford to internalize it.
All that being said, you seem to have bought into the respectability politics and classism b.s. that and willful ignorance that I honestly find disgusting. Black people cannot afford to engage in respectability politics and classism when white supremacy and misogyny are our biggest life threatening problems. Respectability politics will not save us from racism, nor will it save black women from anti-black misogyny.
One of the FIRST and most important things people of African descent can do about racism – especially you – is to address their internalized racism, racialized misogyny, and their defeatist, willfully ignorant mentality. Because if you’re using some of the SAME arguments white supremacists use [like somehow claiming that people of African descent are to blame for white racism] many socially aware Black folks are going to tune you out and write you off as an ignorant stumbling block on our way to true liberation. It is not going to assist you ANY kind of unity or solidarity. It’s counterproductive. Period. For you to claim that black people aren’t trying hard enough….No. That’s disgusting, intellectually lazy internalized racism. Period. Black people are always trying to find new ways to resist or at least survive white supremacy.
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@Alicia:Check out these links, they might explain where you gotten SO much of your misinformation about people of African descent from:
A) “When Media Mergers Limit More Than Competition”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/business/a-21st-century-fox-time-warner-merger-would-narrow-already-dwindling-competition.html
B) “Facts about hip-hop and prison for profit”
http://raprehab.com/facts-about-hip-hop-and-prison-for-profit/
C) “Commercial Rap: A Pipeline to Prison?”
http://raprehab.com/commercial-rap-a-pipeline-to-prison/
D) “Antitrust Us!” AT&T Swallows Yet Another Media Company”
http://www.alternet.org/economy/antitrust-us-att-swallows-yet-another-media-company
E) “AT&T, DirecTV Hit With $10 Billion Race Discrimination Lawsuit”
http://www.thewrap.com/att-directv-hit-with-10-billion-race-discrimination-lawsuit/
F) “Not Black, Just Hood: Classism is Not a Good Argument for Why Appropriation Is Ok”
http://disruptingdinnerparties.com/2014/08/06/not-black-just-hood/
G) “‘Ghetto:’ Five Reasons to Rethink the Word”
http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/ghetto-five-reasons-to-rethink-the-word/index.html
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@Kiwi I definitely agree with you about anti-blackness in Asia being associated with European white supremacy. Yes, there is some colorism that comes from the early class hierarchies of East Asia, but the modern day anti-blackness from other non-African people of color is DISTINCTLY some white Western b.s. They only used to apply their preference for light skin to themselves. And I read somewhere that East Africans used to trade with East Asians before European pillagers and invaders came along. I’d have to look for the reference.
http://japansociology.com/2011/08/21/blackface-is-back-if-it-ever-left/; http://www.mills.edu/academics/faculty/soc/mhunter/The%20Persistent%20Problem%20of%20Colorism.pdf
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@taleoflions No. Whether we change anybody or not, it’s important for everyone to be cognizant of their social condition. Discussing and naming white privilege and the false, flimsy, and fraudulent sense of white superiority white people have is important.
As for seeking international help to deal with these white sociopaths: Malcolm X and the OAAU planned submit to the United Nations a list of human rights violations and acts of genocide committed by the United States against African Americans – something that W.E.B. Dubois wanted to do, along with many American NGO’s today [although I’m not sure how effective they’d be.] Unlike MLK, Malcolm – RIGHTLY – didn’t trust the whites in the U.S. government to EVER effect real, permanent, and substantial racial justice for African Americans [which has turned out to be TRUE.]
His plan was to go to the UN and have the leaders of recently decolonized African countries to support his cause. While Malcolm DID try to become a more palatable figure to whites, it was all part of his long game to use the Cold War to his advantage to embarrass white America on the international stage and make sure that a more IMPARTIAL body was finally going to hold the U.S. government accountable for genocide. Considering the serious threat the Communist Bloc posed to U.S. capitalism and it’s phony “beacon of freedom” image, I think it might have FINALLY resulted people of African descent getting reparations. Of course this frightened white America.
The USSR used to ridicule the U.S. for all the atrocities that it committed against African Americans and every year China releases a report on all the human rights violations that the United States commits while trying to pass themselves off as a “beacon of freedom”, particularly against people of African descent. We should think about using that. The U.S. is disgusting and they need to go down.
I wish people had listened to him about how important it was for there to be an international coalition of people of color to overthrow globalized white supremacy. To determine whether or not certain human beings possessed certain “God given, natural rights” one only had to inquire about whether they were actual HUMAN BEINGS. THAT’S what white Americans did to us and continue to do us. We have never had full American citizenship with access to ALL of our Constitutional rights, nor have our basic human rights ever been recognized. We need to coalesce with allies outside of the U.S.
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@ Veronica
I disagree in the case of the Arab world. There anti-black racism seems to have a tradition that pre-dates Western influence.
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As for self-defense, I don’t think these crazy white sociopaths think that anyone but whites have the right to self-defense on ANY level – which of course goes back to racial slavery. In 1723 they made it illegal for all African-Americans to defend themselves or testify against their attackers in a court of law. This essentially legalized the rape of any African American woman by any white male at any time. And any African American males tried to defend her? Instant death. Basically the right to any kind of self defense, verbal or otherwise, or even the basic human right self-preservation in the face of being attacked is denied to Black people. Any kind of incremental resistance to white supremacy is brutally put down by whites – or their representatives, the police. So I think part of any racial movement should also be about the right of people of color – ESPECIALLY African-Americans – to human self-preservation. We need to have the basic human right to defend our lives in the face of any lethal threats. Period.
“‘Defend Black Women & Die’: Racial Terrorism, Misogyny & Pregnant Silences”
http://www.usprisonculture.com/blog/2013/11/27/defend-black-women-die-racial-terrorism-misogyny-pregnant-silences/
“Why Are “Negroes With Guns” Being Erased from Civil Rights Movement?”
http://breakingbrown.com/2015/01/why-are-negroes-with-guns-being-erased-from-civil-rights-movement/
“Akinyele Omowale Umoja and “We Will Shoot Back: Armed Resistance in the Mississippi Freedom Movement ” – A Review”
http://drdavidjleonard.com/2014/01/21/akinyele-omowale-umoja-and-we-will-shoot-back-armed-resistance-in-the-mississippi-freedom-movement-a-review/
“Malcolm’s Telegram To Martin Tells Him The Time For Turning The Other Cheek Is Over”
http://kulturekritic.com/2015/02/black-history/malcolms-telegram-to-martin-tells-him-the-time-for-turning-the-other-cheek-is-over/#comment-1976130
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@ Veronica
Ah, but I HAVE</i? researched the issue…
You are operating under several misconceptions. Allow me to clear them up for you so as to increase your understanding if the issue.
Black-American income does not come out of nowhere. In fact, it comes from somewhere, and that ‘somewhere’ is mostly from non-Black people. The income that Blacks make, comes mostly from participating in the larger U.S. economy and working at jobs offered by mostly non-Black owned corporations, or by the government, which means the revenue is provided mostly by non-Black taxes (since Blacks are not even close to the majority of tax payers). So to begin with, this income is part of an economic system that Blacks are participating in. Pull out of the system, and most of the income disappears.
Another misconception is that the trillion dollars being spent by Black-Americans is all truly disposable, but it is a TOTAL number. covering all expenditures. So the larger amount of it is spent on the largest overall expense categories.. Therefore, a huge chunk of the money is spent on housing costs. Americans spend the larger part of their paychecks paying the rent or mortgage. Would it really be possible for Blacks to only rent from Black people? Would it really be possible from Blacks to only finance their mortgages through Black-owned banks? How about Fannie Mae? How about Freddie Mac? (both not Black).
A second very large expense is transportation. So Blacks would only buy cars from Black-owned car lots, and finance them only through Black credit unions, and then only buy gas from Black gas stations, and only get repairs from independent Black-owned auto repair shops? How many of those are there, compared to the total Black-American population? But the list goes on. We spend a lot of money on medicine, on insurance (of all types), on groceries, on utilities, on cell phone bills.
The point I am making is that there are a lot of things that we HAVE to buy outside of the Black community because we don’t have a large manufacturing base, or a large agricultural base, or a large financing base, or a large medical services base, etc, etc. So a LOT of that trillion dollars is already tied up paying for things that we cannot get only from other Back people. Once you subtract all of those necessary expenses, then the REAL, ACTUAL, SPENDABLE dollar amount becomes MUCH, much less. That is whats not being accounted for in that calculus that brings us to a trillion dollars. MOST of it cannot be moved.
In order to have one’s own separate economy, you need a manufacturing base/ an agricultural base/ a technology base/ or exploitable natural resources. Black-Americans do not have any of that in anywhere near the quantities needed to just go FUBU. Don’t shoot the messenger, that is just the reality. Sure we have more total disposable income than we did in the past, and corporations will certainly vie for money wherever it is being spent. But even a lot of ‘disposable’ income should really be either saved for a down payment on a property, invested, or put into a retirement account. Most of us have far less money to spend than we think.
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Thanks Abagond for making the point that racism TRULY did not exist in antiquity. I wish you would also change the definition of racism you use on this site because racial prejudice is not racism, and neither is internalized racism/ internalized oppression. Racism is based on white supremacy and takes institutions of government, culture, and society to implement as a system. Racism is not only a question of isolated incidents, personal attitudes, or individual acts of meanness. Racism is about SYSTEMIC white supremacy and anything that furthers the white supremacy system where whites possess the greatest share of power, respect, and resources, and Black people possess the least. Systemic racism means inadequate healthcare, shelter, and money over a LIFETIME. The terms “race”, “racist”, and “racism” have [purposely] been all but divorced from the historical meaning and the asymmetries of power they are meant to connote. Prejudice can be in all of us, but using an intractable race-based hierarchy as a governing structure is something different. Governing structure meaning: racist G.I. Bill policies, Social Security policies, redlining, zoning policy, public housing policy, discrimination in municipal services,and lackadaisical enforcement of anti-discrimination laws along with sustained state sanctioned violent racial terrorism by white vigilantes and police officers – not just racial crime or violence.
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@Veronica
Of course you’re correct. A thorough understanding and analysis of our social condition is paramount. In retrospect, I made that statement in light of my dual disillusionment with Tumblr-esq politcs and what I’ll call White Privilege Revelation.
The first is content to discuss and name privilege, but doesn’t move beyond demanding others to “check and own [your] White (Cis, Male, Hetero, etc.) Privilege. They’re incapable, but more likely unwilling**, to put forth realistic strategies to dismantle and destroy systems of privilege.
The second is derived from the first: That only when White people, et al, own their privileges can society purge itself of oppression and be reborn. White Privilege Revelation is more prophecy than politics, similar to declarations that Christ will return only when all humanity accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior. In the meantime, we are expected to simply keep on preaching and proselytizing.
**A fledgling field of Black Studies, Afro-Pessimism, offers a less than flattering explanation as to why this occurs.
http://imixwhatilike.org/2014/10/01/frankwildersonandantiblackness-2/
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@Veronica
To put it more succinctly, my contention with Privilege discourse is that it further reaffirms the notion that White People are the sole agents of history, and that we have been and can only be passive or secondary entities in our own liberation struggle. That we can only be “freed” by the whims benevolent of White People, is the most White Supremacist idea that pervades contemporary society. Hence my earlier allusion to Benevolent Masters.
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@ Kartoffel
“There was some prejudice against Blacks, but it was personal, not backed by law, religion, science or even custom, as it later would in the West. Arabs had both White and Black slaves.” – Abagond
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I’m not saying that the pre-modern Arab racism was as pervasive and developed as racism in the West. But the fact that there was prejudice based on skin colour is enough for me to say there was racism.
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@King Did you read the article?
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@ Veronica
Yes, of course I did.
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“I think it might have FINALLY resulted people of African descent getting reparations. Of course this frightened white America.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Veronica
Evidently, if you can find and read the latest post/thread here about reparations, the idea of Black people actually receiving reparations of their own individual choosing frightens a lot of people here – that aren’t white – who frequent this site!
Talk about confused …
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Good Point. Wonder why I forgot to post that to him as well.
re:
“As for Black business, it’s more complicated than most people, on either side of the color line, think. Most successful businesses can’t afford to cater to just 12.5% of the population. And people buy things that are the best price for their budget before they start thinking about the color of the person who owns the factory who sells it. In the vast majority of cases a Black business has to be ready to make most of its sales from non-Black customers because the American population is about 87% non-Black.”
Sure, there are exceptions to that. But I’m saying in MOST cases.”
Um, no. There is PLENTY of money to be made from “12.5% of the population.” Please don’t make facile platitudes like that without researching the issue first.
“Sometime in 2013, the African American consumer market exceeded the trillion dollar mark for the first time. To put this figure in perspective, that market is larger than the market for the entire nation of Spain…Because of this economic reality, a wide variety of contemporary companies continually create marketing campaigns to effectively reach this important segment of the U.S. consumer market.”
Feel free to read this article:
http://www.blackpast.org/perspectives/trillion-dollar-african-american-consumer-market-economic-empowerment-or-economic-depen
“The Trillion Dollar African American Consumer Market: Economic Empowerment or Economic Dependency?”
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Hi Veronica,
That’s what I’m here to do. Try to understand. I know millions of other blacks are doing the same. I feel especially for those 30 and under who for years will not understand why are they face this and those who don’t have the comfort of a black community to come home to.
re:
Veronica
@Alicia We need to know about the HISTORY of racism so that we don’t sound like you, ENTIRELY ignorant of WHY people of African descent are hearing and experiencing some of the things we are experiencing when they come DIRECTLY from racial chattel slavery. In Africa, enslaved young women could eventually marry into their owner’s lineage and their children would become heirs. When an enslaved woman became pregnant with her Arab captors child she was granted privileged rights and the child however would have prospered from the wealth of the father and given rights of INHERITANCE. The imposition of lifetime hereditary racial chattel slavery on African American was dependent on the denial of the English Common Law. In English law you always inherited the status of your father: if your father was free, you were free. In Virginia in the 1660s, they turned that around to make a special exception and said that these workers will inherit the status of their mother, which means that the mixed race child of a African servant woman inherits their unfree status. This shifted Africans in America going from indentured servitude to lifelong slavery to heredity slavery, where not only were they enslaved but their children’s children into perpetuity as well.
Races were created to legitimize enslaving black people in chattel slavery before they were ever born, in the face of American Enlightenment ideals about ALL HUMANS having unalienable rights. hereditary slavery was EXTREMELY unusual in this world BEFORE chattel slavery. The racialized sexist stereotypes about Black female sexuality have NOT changed significantly since racial chattel slavery. Since the institution of racial chattel slavery depended on Black women to supply future slaves, slave masters used every method imaginable, especially rape, to force slave women to reproduce. We STILL not seen as suitable, valid, or ideals mothers or wives: we are STILL seen as “breeders.” Three dominant stereotypes of Black women have been identified as (1) Mammy, (2) Jezebel, and (3) Sapphire. Scholars have also identified the stereotype of pickaninnies, which is specifically associated with Black children.
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Hi Veronica,
I know. It’s strange, weird, hurtful, ignorant, evil, and sick how white supremacists view Black people and for myself, black women. I never deal with this attitude among fellow blacks, hispanics, asians, indians or anyone else. Heck, even in Japan I had suitors and men checking me out. It’s weird as a woman to be around a set of men and have them trying to make me feel that I’m not wanted, or trying to get men who are of my race to shun me. It’s been years but it’s still feels so weird. I get this strange vibe whenever I am among whites they feel I should feel like crap as a black woman and I should feel unwanted.
re:
Veronica
@Alicia
As for some of the things you experience with the disgusting racist and misogynist white males at your job:
http://kathmanduk2.wordpress.com/2007/05/16/towards-the-end-of-aunt-jemima/
The stereotypes of Aunt Jemima/Mammy are the most insidious that black women continue to have to challenge, fight, and suffer from:
-The happy slave
-The devoted servant
-The happy non-white
-The natural-born cook
-The mental inferior
-The woman who is so ugly in appearance that she is no one a man would want to romance, love, or bring into his life or show off around his male buddies/friends
Aunt Jemima would also be the happy-go-lucky, clowning, grinning, childlike, soulful, hostile [but wary] perpetual servile slave.
Other attributes of Aunt Jemima/Mammy are the following:
-Strong, kind, loyal
-Obese, almost cow-like in image
-Slatternly, lazy and filthy in her appearance
-Her dark skin was mocked with a greasy eye-blinding shine
-Asexual, unattractive, matronly in appearance
-Always the “motherly type”—-but, not the type for a man to marry
-Good-humored to a fault, never had reason to cry or experience sorrow
-The ubiquitous head rag (which incidentally, was originally a West African GELE headwrap worn by black Africans, but made into a pernicious stereotype by WHITE PEOPLE during slavery and by media ads of the 20th Century). This image gave way to the phrase “handkerchief head.”
http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/collins.htm
Click to access controlling.pdf
“In the post–World War II era, increasing numbers of white women entered the labor market, limited their fertility, and generally challenged their proscribed roles in white patriarchal institutions. The image of the Black matriarch emerged at that time as a powerful symbol for both Black and white women of what can go wrong if white patriarchal power is challenged. Aggressive, assertive women are penalized—they are abandoned by their men, end up impoverished, and are stigmatized as being unfeminine.” – “Controlling Images and Black Women’s Oppression” by Patricia Hill Collins.
http://www.arte-sana.com/articles/mammy_sapphire.htm
“The myths of Mammy, Jezebel and Sapphire “have their roots in negative anti-woman mythology.” Moreover, at any time, each of these images is used to characterize African American women in a monolithic image. Consequently, many people find it difficult to appreciate the diversity of African American women and instead impose identities based on negative stereotypes.”
“While the Jezebel stereotype most clearly supports the sexual exploitation of African American women, the other two stereotypes ALSO promote this subjugation. Mammy’s harassment claims would go unheard because no one would believe that a man would desire an asexual woman. Similarly, Sapphire’s claims of sexual abuse would be overshadowed by her “reputation for deception, lying and lack of loyalty.””
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Hi Veronica, Abagond and others,
I no longer read, listen to or pay attention to any mainstream news. If i’m at a black station and they start talking about Cosby or another news that I feel is irrelevant and in support of anti-blackness in this country I TURN IT OFF IMMEDIATELY. More importantly, most mainstream news is NEGATIVE and irrelevant to our everyday lives.
I noticed a pattern years ago with the demonization of black people in the mainstream news, especially black men. No more for me!
I don’t know if we’re not doing enough. I just think there’s so many millions of us from here to other countries yet we are so vulnerable to racism and white supremacy.
————
re:
Veronica
@Alicia: A) ninety percent of what Americans read, watch and listen to is controlled by only SIX media companies B) In 1983, it was FIFTY media companies C) Today’s media companies appear to be part of larger corporate conglomerates that are violating anti-trust laws. Example? General Electric, which not only co-owns Universal Entertainment – the home of Def Jam and Interscope Records – but is ALSO the nation’s largest weapons manufacturer as well as a huge investor in the private prison industry.D) These super-conglomerate corporations appear to be a tool for imprisoning and criminalizing the masses, particularly black people.
The frightening and dangerous atmosphere in this country is exactly like that of the run up to Nazi Germany where Jews were scapegoated and blamed for all of the ills of the country.The greedy, sociopathic white corporate racists running this country are proliferating one-dimensional and largely negative ideas about all people of African descent to fill their prisons. I wouldn’t be surprised if martial law and militarization on the scale of Ferguson are instituted in Black communities someday soon. Nor would I be shocked to see Black folks of ALL socioeconomic classes arrested in mass numbers and placed internment camps. And there would be no outcry from the general public – especially whites – because people have been conditioned, programmed and brainwashed via the white mainstream media machine believe that Black people are Public Enemy #1.This is some straight up psychological warfare shxt and we can’t afford to internalize it.
All that being said, you seem to have bought into the respectability politics and classism b.s. that and willful ignorance that I honestly find disgusting. Black people cannot afford to engage in respectability politics and classism when white supremacy and misogyny are our biggest life threatening problems. Respectability politics will not save us from racism, nor will it save black women from anti-black misogyny.
One of the FIRST and most important things people of African descent can do about racism – especially you – is to address their internalized racism, racialized misogyny, and their defeatist, willfully ignorant mentality. Because if you’re using some of the SAME arguments white supremacists use [like somehow claiming that people of African descent are to blame for white racism] many socially aware Black folks are going to tune you out and write you off as an ignorant stumbling block on our way to true liberation. It is not going to assist you ANY kind of unity or solidarity. It’s counterproductive. Period. For you to claim that black people aren’t trying hard enough….No. That’s disgusting, intellectually lazy internalized racism. Period. Black people are always trying to find new ways to resist or at least survive white supremacy.
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Thanks, I’ll check those out.
re:
Veronica
@Alicia:Check out these links, they might explain where you gotten SO much of your misinformation about people of African descent from:
A) “When Media Mergers Limit More Than Competition”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/business/a-21st-century-fox-time-warner-merger-would-narrow-already-dwindling-competition.html
B) “Facts about hip-hop and prison for profit”
http://raprehab.com/facts-about-hip-hop-and-prison-for-profit/
C) “Commercial Rap: A Pipeline to Prison?”
http://raprehab.com/commercial-rap-a-pipeline-to-prison/
D) “Antitrust Us!” AT&T Swallows Yet Another Media Company”
http://www.alternet.org/economy/antitrust-us-att-swallows-yet-another-media-company
E) “AT&T, DirecTV Hit With $10 Billion Race Discrimination Lawsuit”
http://www.thewrap.com/att-directv-hit-with-10-billion-race-discrimination-lawsuit/
F) “Not Black, Just Hood: Classism is Not a Good Argument for Why Appropriation Is Ok”
http://disruptingdinnerparties.com/2014/08/06/not-black-just-hood/
G) “‘Ghetto:’ Five Reasons to Rethink the Word”
http://dcentric.wamu.org/2011/05/ghetto-five-reasons-to-rethink-the-word/index.html
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@Taleoflions: Thanks for the link. I love Frank Wilderson. And I still believe that no matter how white people respond to discussions of white privilege, we need to have them and point it out for ourselves be able to articulate our experiences. Black folks who are experiencing racial discrimination need to understand that it’s not EVER going to be a few isolated incidents – it’s perpetual and habitual oppression. We need to be cognizant that we are STILL dealing with the SAME exact asinine stereotypes from racial slavery. In fact, figuring out that most whites are still stupid enough to believe imbecilic racist myths from 200 years ago made it a lot easier to not give a fxck about anything anyone has to say about what Black people or Black women do. I don’t give fxck what someone thinks we have done or haven’t done. We don’t have to be perfect in order to have our BASIC HUMANITY respected – we are owed that anyway as human beings. Period.
Being aware of our social condition is important. When you realize the sheer scope of dehumanizing, savage white behavior that they’ve NEVER been accountable for…you realize that these whites are sociopaths who are fully capable of killing us. Yes, I’m aware that there are other non-Black POC who engage in anti-blackness and colorism and I don’t like it. But never will I be stupid enough to think that any of them poses the immediate, every day, state-sanctioned threat to my life, my family’s lives, and the lives of all people of African descent everywhere that whites do – particularly white Americans. Especially in America. That is the REAL crisis. I’m down to coalesce with anyone who wants to take this immediate threat down [i.e. the U.S.]
The reason why I freely encourage African Americans to obtain [legally] purchased guns is because we are living in an uncivilized, bloodthirsty white supremacist “society” that is FULLY capable of putting us into straight up extermination camps, gas chambers, and ovens as opposed to prisons and segregated neighborhoods. I’m tired of living in fear and I don’t want any kids I have to go through this too. If it takes shooting back at the “cops” and vigilantes in self defense, so be it. They’re glorified modern day overseers and slavecatchers, anyway. I have no respect for them OR their lives and the feeling is quite clearly mutual. I might die, but at least I won’t die a slave…and I’ll be taking as many of THEM as I can with me.
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@Veronica
You’re very welcome! Frank Wilderson really helped me to cope with and make sense of what I was trying to grasp. I was so angry and so depressed I had to go on hiatus from college. Dr. Wilderson and the Killer Bs Squad helped me to recover.
I agree that NBPoC aren’t nearly as much a threat to us as White Americans are. I think it is absolutely necessary that PoC fight White Supremacy together.
It is clear from the killings of John Crawford, Tamil Rice, and those who have been murdered and brutalized for holding keys, cellphones, and wallets, that America is at war with those of us with the audacity to be armed with toys and trinkets, let alone deadly weapons. The 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply to us no matter the interpretation or the state we live in. To possess Blackness in America is to be criminalized; to be an outlaw.
We will be forced to do more than protect ourselves should we obtain guns. We’ll need nothing short of Revolution to survive. We’ll have to protect each other as brothers & sisters of arms. We’ll have to protect the brothers, sisters, children, and elders who can’t protect themselves. We’ll have to develop a creed or ethic so we don’t abuse the power of our guns. We’ll have to endure the overwhelming violence the state will throw at us. We’ll need Revolution to survive.
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@ Kartoffel
“Extensive Female-Mediated Gene Flow from Sub-Saharan Africa into Near Eastern Arab Populations”
“Mitochondrial DNA variation of populations from the Near East and Africa found a very high frequency of African lineages present in the Yemen Hadramawt: more than a third were of clear African origin. Other Arab populations carried 10% lineages of African origin, whereas non-Arab Near Eastern populations, by contrast, carried few or no such lineages, suggesting that gene flow has been preferentially added into Arab populations. Several lines of evidence suggest that most of this gene flow probably occurred within the past 2,500 years. In contrast, there is little evidence of male-mediated gene flow from African Africa in Y-chromosome haplotypes in Arab populations, including the Hadramawt. Taken together, these results are consistent with substantial migration from eastern Africa into Arabia, at least in part as a result of the Arab slave trade, and mainly female assimilation into the Arabian population as a result of miscegenation and manumission.”
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297(07)60630-2
Miscegenation in Arab culture favors the Arab father regardless of the mother’s race. So in stark contrast to European enslavement children born to enslaved African women became Arab and not African. Despite their physical appearance, they were generally culturally Arab – like Anwar Sadat. They were absorbed into the Arab gene pool and there was no 2nd and 3rd generation to enslave, unlike in the Americas.
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@ Kartoffel
North Africans became Arab either by adopting the language and culture OR by blood. The ones who adopted Arab culture became Arab by Arabization. Arab is an ethnicity not a color. So Arab “racism” before white European supremacy was mainly based on ethnicity, not skin color. Arab “racism” was ETHNOCENTRISM. The modern day globalized anti-black racism that PERMANENTLY dehumanizes people of African descent is some white Western fuckery. There were a few people who were prejudiced based on skin color but UNLIKE racism there was no intractable difference that they could NEVER transcend.
http://newamericamedia.org/2011/08/libyas-destiny-eurafrica-or-africa.php
“Europeans and white Americans were also enslaved by North African pirates, a practice that provoked the United States to wage the two Barbary Wars in the early 1800s. In contrast to the race-conscious European and American plantation owners, the Arab world then perceived bondage as simply a category of human capital, irregardless of the captives’ race.
At the level of household and community, intermarriage with persons of African ancestry has not been a major problem throughout most of the Arab world, so long as the spouse belongs to the Islamic faith and follows the customary rites and habits. Sharply contrasting with America’s discriminatory segregation policy during his lifetime, this is the Islamic multi-racialism that Malcolm X observed in Mecca.
The Race Card
Arab racial attitudes, therefore, cannot be SIMPLISTICALLY REDUCED TO SKIN TONE but are more an issue related to CULTURE, especially the residual beliefs and customs of so-called “kaffir” or pagans. Ever since the Umayyad invasion that swept across North Africa in the 7th century, the Arabs encountered, subdued and incorporated an array of tribes in the Saharan region, or Magreb. Black Africans who adopted the totality of Arabic cultural behavior integrated with relative ease into the dominant society, many ascending to high rank. Those who stubbornly held to their “superstitious” beliefs in native deities and matriarchal customs, including many Berbers and the majority of the Tuareg, were deemed Africans and not Arabs.
These ill-defined racial divisions helped European colonizers promote institutional discrimination during the 19th and early 20th centuries. The biases of French, Italian and British colonial administrators were imposed on the Semitic peoples – Arabs and Jews of North Africa and the Levant. The stress on skin tone – white standing for civilization and black for savagery – was already well-established in Europe and North America. Color-based images were deeply ingrained, for example, in a long-haired Nordic Jesus of Nazareth, as opposed to the “kinky head” that he was likelier to have been, versus swarthy despots and tanned Saracen pirates. European scholars, writers and artists recast the history of North Africa into racial stereotypes, portraying light-skinned pharaohs when, in fact, most ancient statues reveal African facial and physical features.
Skin tone affected a Semitic individual’s chances of employment and career promotion under European colonialism. The lingering sense of insecurity is still reflected, for instance, when some – not all – of my Arab friends try to pass themselves off as whites inside posh lounges in Berlin or even Dubai, an understandable guise in our present context of the war on terrorism. Prejudices of the master are adopted by the servants, and “second-class whites” can often be more vicious and vulgar in their racism. Extreme examples can be seen in the propaganda posters of the Maronite Christian militias of Lebanon, presenting themselves as lily-white crusaders against the dark hordes.”
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@ Veronica
I agree with your assessment of the racial history after the European colonization, but I don’t see how that is relevant for the discussion of Arab anti-black racism before European influence. I disagree that the anti-black attitude of medieval Arabs was only cultural or religious. During the Middle Ages Arab scholars often discussed and sometimes denied that black Africans can be real muslims.That of course doesn’t mean that racism in the medieval Arab World didn’t work significantly different from European racism after 1500. As you pointed out, the cross-generational effects were less harmfull because slavery didn’t exist along a colour-line and and a child’s status followed the father.
I get the impression you want to limit the term “racism” to the European system after 1500, which limits the scope significantly and reduces its analytical value.
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@Kartoffel
Yes, but these individual sentiments of Antiblackness were never enshrined in Islamic Law (Sharia). The African was never subjected to absolute dishonor and social death; by adopting Islam the African was incorporated into Muslim Life. We cannot forget that racism is and always has been institutional, not personal.
http://blackagendareport.com/node/14684
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That goes back to the “difinition of racism”-debate. The argument for “racism=racial prejudice+power” hasn’t convinced me. But that is a different discussion.
“The African was never subjected to absolute dishonor and social death.”
So, you’re limiting racism to societies that had race-based chattel slavery or an extreme form of colonialism?
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@King
Okay I see what you’re saying BUT there are plenty of successful businesses that cater to just 12.5% of the population. Particularly in the hair and personal care market. Off the top of my head: Curl Box,The Mane Choice, Shea Moisture, Oyin Handmade, Koils By Nature, TGIN, Eden BodyWorks. Black women spend more than the average woman on beauty and cosmetics products and highly brand loyal (probably due to the lack of options). This is ESPECIALLY true of the natural hair market. Women with natural hair PARTICULARLY like to buy from Black woman owned brands.
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/report/2013/11/07/79165/fact-sheet-the-state-of-african-american-women-in-the-united-states/
African American-owned businesses are the fastest-growing segment of the women-owned business market and are starting up at a rate six times higher than the national average.
http://blackstillmatters.com/uncategorized/segregation-in-aisle-seven-big-box-stores-relegate-black-hair-products-to-the-rear/
Black women, for example, spare no expense when it comes to their hair. Given society’s intrigue with black hair, the black community’s frequent judgment about it and all the challenges associated with styling and maintaining their hair, black women are likely to spend two to three times as much money on their hair as white females.
Collectively, these products for naturally kinky and curly hair have become one of the new standards of hair-care products within the $9 billion black hair-care industry. But they have no shelf space in mass retail outlets in black communities. They squeeze into neighborhood beauty supply stores, but would serve the community better and do well in national chains. They have the potential to generate billions of dollars in sales from the black community alone.
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@Kartoffel
Not exactly. I’m saying that racism is the exile of (African) people from Humanity, where Humanity is defined as being the antithesis of the Slave, the Black, the Thug, the N1gger. This is why immigrants and NBPoC appropriate Antiblackness when they come to America. To be Antiblack is to be Human, to be (White*) American, and the prerequisite of attaining incorperation into the American Melting Pot.
There where indeed Arabs with bigoted Antiblack sentiments, but Arab society was not sustained and rejuvenated by Antiblackness like Western society is.
*The parameters of Whiteness has expanded and contracted to suit the needs of the White Settler Colony and will do so again in the future. There is a very real possibility that Whiteness will incorporate Hapas and Hispanics of fair(er) complexion in the future. The only people for which incorperation and integration is impossible are those who are “Negr@s”.
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@taleoflions
“We will be forced to do more than protect ourselves should we obtain guns. We’ll need nothing short of Revolution to survive. We’ll have to protect each other as brothers & sisters of arms. We’ll have to protect the brothers, sisters, children, and elders who can’t protect themselves. We’ll have to develop a creed or ethic so we don’t abuse the power of our guns. We’ll have to endure the overwhelming violence the state will throw at us. We’ll need Revolution to survive.”
Definitely agree. And It wouldn’t be the first time we’ve done this… I think people of African descent need to be reminded that we HAVE armed and defended ourselves before. This time we’d need to make sure we formulate international allies and we keep going until this white supremacist society is either destabilized or destroyed…suffice to say, I believe in the use of guerrilla warfare. I’d rather die trying to stop these psychopaths then continue living under the threat of them legally getting away with picking any one of us off anytime they feel like.
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@ taleoflions
That is a very American point of view. I agree that in American racist thought anti-black racism is the foundation of everything else and that anti-blackness can serve as an entry-card for everyone else.
I’m not even sure that is also true for relativly similiar countires like Canada and Australia. I’m positive that is not true for Central and Eastern Europe. For example German racist thought is also very anti-black. In the racial hierarchies that were developed in the 19th century blacks were ranked at the bottom. But they weren’t at the center of the attention and so blacks didn’t become the antithesis of a human. They were “just” an inferior group among others. By your definition that wouldn’t classify as racism.
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Actually, it does. While Whiteness in Europe isn’t a uniting Pan-European force like it is in America, Negr@s cannot integrate into European society. Black people cannot become German even when they speak the language and adopt the culture. They are perpetual foreigners and exiled from inclusion in the German nation (remember that nations are people, not countries) i.e., they are socially dead in Germany and everywhere else in Europe.
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To put it more simply:
Africans can become Arab in the pre-modern era by adopting Arab culture.
Blacks cannot become White, because Whiteness is the absence and antithesis of Blackness.
In the former case, one’s Arabness (& Africaness) a determined by one’s behavior.
In the latter, one’s Whiteness (& Blackness) is determined by one’s recent ancestry and phenotype, i.e. their race.
It’s impossible to be Arab and non-Arab at the same time, so non-Arabs cannot be incorporated into Arab society. Likewise, it’s impossible to be White and non-White at once, so non-White people cannot be incorporated into White/Western society.
====
While I am not well versed on racism in Canada, I know that Australia is vehemently Antiblack by way of its treatment of the Aboriginal People, whom are colloquially known as Black. Afaik, they are unapologetically Black and consider themselves and their struggles a part of the Pan-African tapestry.
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@ Veronica
Yes, as your article states, Blacks have come a long way as a financial market in America. In fact, many businesses consider reaching out ta Black-Americans to be a good business move. This is a LOT different than things were in the past. I totally agree with that. Economics is power—that is a primary principle of Capitalism. My point is that Black-Americans have always been a part of America, and the American economy. Why shouldn’t they benefit just as much as anyone else from it? Trying to cut ourselves off from the larger economy does not help Black people, it hurts them. EVERYBODY else (racially speaking) is selling to WHOMEVER will buy their products, and Blacks should do the same.
I think there should be much more Black business, but in order to do that successfully, we need higher rates of education and employment. The more Blacks who gain education and experience in the workplace, the more Black successful Black businesses will be possible. As I was saying in a post above, most Blacks don’t even know what kind of minority business opportunities there are out there. A lot of AMAZING opportunities are being wasted. I see this every day. And I”m not just talking about college education. There are also opportunities in the culinary field, and even in landscape/gardening etc.
I just wish more Blacks would take advantage of these opportunities to develop their own businesses, while they last.
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@ Kartoffel
::Eyeroll::Since when are racism and institutional racism are no longer considered equivalent expressions?!? It’s not a debate. EthnocentrismTo Europeans, Native Americans and many Asians were savages and heathens, but AFRICANS were considered by them to be a particularly depraved branch of humanity because of their darkly pigmented skin. Around THE GLOBE the possession of European blood ancestry and “WHITE” skin became the NORM from which every other color deviated. History shows that people can and do
learn another language and can move into another ethnic group and become a member of that ethnicity. You can assimilate into a different ethnicity, but race is the notion that differences cannot not be transcended and are permanent and cannot EVER be overcome. If Arab “racism” was anything more than ethnocentrism about CULTURE and a few people who were prejudiced based on physical features then people of African ancestry wouldn’t have EVER been able to assimilate into the Arab ethnicity by ANY means at all. Ever. It would not have been possible for Africans to assimilate into the Arab ethnicity for at least 2,500 years.
All non-Black people are promised that if they comply with this horrific racial hierarchy that permanently deems people of African descent to be COMPLETELY NON-HUMAN, that THEY won’t be the ones placed bottom of the racial hierarchy. This prevents people from seeing that the black-white binary constitutes Blackness as the bottom of a color hierarchy.It also prevents them from seeing that the very thing that holds white “Western society” together as a whole is anti-Black racism. As Toni Morrison puts it,the second word every US immigrant learns is the N-word.
Racism is colonizing, dominating, and enslaving the most of the planet’s populations in the name of your permanent global “superiority,” creating heavily enforced GLOBAL standards of beauty based on your own colored definition, enacting a system where only ONE group benefits on a global scale, and finally PRETENDING like that inhumane said system no longer exists. Prejudice can be in all of us, but prejudice employed as a governing structure is something different.
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@ Kartoffel
*I meant: It’s not a debate.To Europeans, Native Americans and many Asians were savages and heathens, but AFRICANS were considered by them to be a particularly depraved branch of humanity because of their darkly pigmented skin. Around THE GLOBE the possession of European blood ancestry and “WHITE” skin became the NORM from which every other color deviated.
There are some other typos but you get my drift.
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@ Veronica
“Since when are racism and institutional racism are no longer considered equivalent expressions?”
The dictionary gives a different definition. Abagond uses a different definition. If you would take a poll, a significant portion of people would give different definitions. Obviously there is no consensus.
“You can assimilate into a different ethnicity, but race is the notion that differences cannot not be transcended and are permanent and cannot EVER be overcome.”
As I said before that reduces the definition of racism to a ridiculous degree. It would only apply to race realists. People who think that race isn’t a biological fact and that blacks just have a faulty culture, wouldn’t be considered racists anymore.
“If Arab “racism” was anything more than ethnocentrism about CULTURE and a few people who were prejudiced based on physical features then people of African ancestry wouldn’t have EVER been able to assimilate into the Arab ethnicity by ANY means at all.”
I don’t know enough about blacks in the medieval Arab World to assess if blacks could completly integrate into society. But just that there descendants eventually were, is no proof. The descendents could have been second-rate members of society until the physical difference was lost. Also that some blacks could rise in society is no more proof that there was no racism as Obama’s presidency is for the non-existence of racism in America.
If enough powerful people hold racial prejudice and base decisions on that, it limits the affected person’s life chances. You don’t have to put it into an official racist system.
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@ King
“Trying to cut ourselves off from the larger economy does not help Black people, it hurts them. EVERYBODY else (racially speaking) is selling to WHOMEVER will buy their products, and Blacks should do the same.”
Targeting a particular so-called “niche” market is not “cutting yourselves off from anyone else” often it’s providing a basic need that the white/mainstream market refuses to provide or it’s providing the kind of service, respect, and consideration that the white//mainstream market refuses to provide. For example there’s an African American woman who started a line of nude/skin tone colored bras SPECIFICALLY for women of African descent. Do you know how much attention she got and how many people who said they wanted to immediately put in a pre-order? Why? Because it’s damn near impossible for a Black woman to find nude colored bras, and white companies REFUSE to realize that nude/flesh toned does not even EQUAL white in most of the world and it shouldn’t within this country considering that African-Americans have been here longer than most whites.
As for service, I used to go to a Black dermatologist who specifically specialized in skin of color. Why? Because many white dermatologists don’t feel the need to consistently keep up with the newer specialized technologies and treatments for browner skin complexions. If you have white skin? They’ll have the most up to date lasers and peels available known to man. If you have darker brown skin – they’ll might have to see if something they bought for their white customers can be used on you. I LOVE buying from Black owned businesses that I KNOW are catering to women of African descent and so do a lot of other people.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to create products we KNOW there is a need for and wanting to help each other attain financial stability and success. Why does success mean trying to sell something to EVERYBODY or selling your successful Black brand to one of these white corporate conglomerates that clearly don’t give a fxck if we live or die, let alone treating us with any consideration, dignity, or respect? Why can’t success be becoming a GLOBAL Black hair care brand? Why can’t success be building up a successful hair care brand and buying other smaller black hair care or cosmetics brands and building a conglomerate? Why can’t success be offering a successful Black hair care brand to the public market (including customers) through an IPO?
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You have to enshrine race and social death in an official system to have not-so-powerful people accept it and ensure that these prejudices and delineations persist for generations. Otherwise, the powerful are at risk of being besieged by an alliance of the poor, working, and otherwise exploited of varying backgrounds.
Arabs never did that as the Quran explicitly forbids it. The Bible is quite open to a racist reading of “The Chosen People”. Speaking of. . .
Most arguments for racism in Western Civilization were (are?) theological in nature. It wasn’t until very recently that “Darwinian” validations of racism became vogue.
As I said, social death is the essence of racism. That Black people have developed and practice a culture and community that is considered mutually exclusive to that of White people, inspite (or because) of being here for centuries further strengthens my argument.
If I were wrong there would be no talk of “Black on Black” or “Black on White” crime, and a “Black Community” that has to reform itself. The evidence is in the very language.
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Veronica @ If Arab “racism” was anything more than ethnocentrism about CULTURE and a few people who were prejudiced based on physical features then people of African ancestry wouldn’t have EVER been able to assimilate into the Arab ethnicity by ANY means at all.
taleoflions@ Africans can become Arab in the pre-modern era by adopting Arab culture.
Linda says,
I think what you both are trying to push forth, is that Africans can become Muslims and have adopted much of the Arab/Muslim culture as well –true
but being Arabized or Muslim does not protect them from racism based on skin colour, from the real Arabs (Saudi’s, Yemenis), Maghreb, Berbers, or Levants.
skin colour plays a huge part in the racism of North African/Sahel countries, countries like Palestine or Saudi Arabia.
Racism in North Africa/ Middle East is very real, and a dark-skinned or black person is casually called an “abeed, Abd” regardless of their religion.
Abeed means “slave” and is used on black people; and is the equivalent of the word “ni88er” –just as ugly and mean and the word, Kaffir, means “infidel” and is used to indicate that a person is a non-Muslim, regardless of colour.
white slaves were referred to as “mamluk” but Arabs/middle east use that word anymore to refer to white people, but they still use the word “Abd” to refer to black people.
They use it casually and the word immigrated to the USA with the Arab Americans immigrants themselves.
There is a campaign called: “Drop the A-Word’ Campaign” — which Urges Arab-Americans to Stop Using Anti-Black Slur
https://dawudwalid.wordpress.com/2013/11/24/responses-to-my-calling-out-the-term-abeed/
“There are deep roots of tribalism and colorism in the Arab world, which pre-date colonialism, were encouraged during colonialism and further solidified within many Arab Americans based upon America’s racial hierarchy.”
It’s not authentic to talk about Islamophobia and Arabophobia while being silent on its cancer-like manifestations among Muslims and Arabs.
Also, this is not simply Arab on black racism that Muslims need to face. There is Somali on “Bantu” racism, black on white bigotry among some in Islamic centers, colorism between Pakistanis and Bengalis, etc.”
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http://thearabdailynews.com/2014/03/01/drop-word/
“The Arabic word “abed” and its plural form “abeed” mean “slave” or “servant” and should not be acceptable when used in a racial or derogatory sense. Many Arabs often use them as slurs to label black people, regardless of their social or financial status.
At the same time in Saudi Arabia, Nawal Al-Hawsawi, a black Saudi, has begun the first ever campaign against racism in the country. After two ladies insulted her at a shopping mall with the word “Al-Abda,” Arabic for female slave, she sued them. They attempted to apologize later on but she still pursued her case. It was referred to the Commission for Investigation and Prosecution and is waiting for a final decision.
Some Saudis referred to her as “Rosa Parks” yet I believe this is an unfair comparison considering the social context. Saudi law, as in other Arab countries, grants equal opportunities to all regardless of race, yet cultural standards and tribalism still discriminate and distinguish between people.
In the Middle East, we still lack civil liberty groups fighting against racism. It is almost impossible to get data about this ugly phenomenon. Some Arabs still live in denial of this problem. However we all know it exists; we either witness or experience it. We need to do more than just dropping the “A” word. It is time to stop discrimination in all its forms and drop words with other letters of the alphabet.”
I went to University in Europe with middle Eastern, Turks, Africans, and the one thing I learned, is that depending on what country they were from, determined how prejudiced they were against black Africans (black people in general)
In my opinion, the Turks were the least prejudiced against black people, and north Africans were more prejudice than the students from the middle East.
There was a lot of friction between the Egyptian students and the students from west or south of Africa. It could have been a religious issue Christian vs Muslim because they (Egyptians) got on well with the north Sudanese students
Of course, they all stopped the BS and bonded with the black African students when it was time to deal with prejudice from white Europeans. That’s when they realized just how “white” (or rather, how non-white) they were in Germany
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Here’s a follow story about Nawal Al-Hawsawi:
‘Rosa Parks’ of Saudi Arabia drops racism case
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2014/02/06/-Rosa-Parks-of-Saudi-Arabia-drops-racism-case-against-three-women.html
A Saudi female pilot has dropped a racism case against three women who called her a “slave” after they apologized to her, she told Al Arabiya News in Riyadh on Wednesday.
Nawal AlHawsawi took her grievances to court after the women verbally attacked her, with at least one of them calling her “abda,” a derogatory term meaning “slave” in Arabic, during an event celebrating the Saudi National Day at a shopping mall in Makkah last September.
“I am very happy how the legal proceedings have developed; I was very fortunate because I was able to reach a resolution with the three ladies and received an apology from them,” AlHawsawi said after her appearance on MBC1’s 8PM with Dawood al-Shirian.
The turning point for me through the course of three months and numerous attempts at apologies was when one of the women told me that God punished her, her husband divorced her and she has been going through a lot of trial in tribulations in her own personal life since the incident,” she said.
Her husband (Nawal) David McCarthy confirmed that his wife did not want the women to be punished for their racial slurs. He said she wanted them to learn that racism is hurtful and wrong.
The couple said they were satisfied with the Saudi justice system and compared their experiences with their time in America.
Al-Husawi said she was the victim of racial discrimination in the United States as well, but she could not pursue legal action there because calling someone ‘the N word’ is protected under freedom of expression.
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@ Kartoffel
I don’t give a damn WHAT excuses whites give for being racist, they’re based on the same stupid, uneducated white supremacist racist stereotypes based on phenotypical differences from 200 years ago. Racism is a problem you whites need to deal with. And I don’t give a damn about any “official” dictionaries, considering that the IDIOTIC WHITE MALES who run them were willing to put mythandry…oops misandry in their online dictionaries with no proof that the word ever existed at all in any kind of reality ever – except in the minds of racist, misogynistic, and entitled white males. I don’t give a fxck what willfully ignorant, entitled, racist whites with a false, flimsy, and fraudulent white superiority complex think.
http://adonismirror.com/10152006_leader_misandry_and_misanthropy.htm
I don’t give a fxck about any whites who have the sheer gall to think THEY can define a system of oppression they directly benefit from and that they will NEVER personally experience in their lifetime. Abagond is basing HIS definition on the same racist and sexist fxcked up dictionary that racist whites do. I can’t IMAGINE not knowing what the fxck I’m talking about but yet having THE MOST to say. Whites should feel fxcking stupid and embarrassed. Y’all never stop to think “What gives me the right?” or “I’ll never experience perpetual racial oppression and being the complete antithesis of humanity, so why in the fxck am I arrogant enough to try tell people of African descent how to define it?”
Guess what? All of us who ACTUALLY know our history and are ACTUALLY in touch with everyday reality know who created the term race. We know who created the white supremacist ideology that buttressed the term race. We know that there is only ONE group that benefited and continues to benefit from systemic racism wherever they go in this world. Only. One. Group.
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As Veronica pointed out, ethnocentrism also plays a big role on the African continent
many problems that occurred in several countries, has it’s ties based in ethnocentrism; and in a few northern countries, there is a touch of colourism present
such as the wars in Sudan, an Afro-Arab country with 600 different ethnic groups (ie tribes) with mixed-race African/Arab Muslims in the north and black African Christians in the South.
Here is an interesting article that touches on identity in Sudan:
http://conconflicts.ssrc.org/hornofafrica/dewaal/
“This paper is an attempt to explain the processes of identity formation that have taken place in Darfur over the last four centuries.
The basic story is of four overlapping processes of identity formation, each of them primarily associated with a different period in the region’s history.
The four are the ‘Sudanic identities’ associated with the Dar Fur sultanate, Islamic identities, the administrative tribalism associated with the 20th century Sudanese state, and the recent polarization of ‘Arab’ and ‘African’ identities, associated with new forms of external intrusion and internal violence.”
—————————–
In northern Mali, the Tauregs are fighting to establish what they consider their former homeland. The Tuaregs are north African Maghrebs/Berbers
in 2012, the Tauregs had combined with Al-Queda and attacked Timbuktu. This brought up long-held feelings:
Mali crisis: Human Rights Watch condemns ethnic abuses
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-22811108
“The Tuaregs of northern Mali, who are mostly light-skinned, have a long history of seeking autonomy from the rest of the country, saying they have been discriminated against by the government in Bamako.
The Human Rights Watch report said the Malian army seriously abused a number of ethnic Tuareg villagers, threatening to kill them, beating them and using racial slurs.
It also said about 100 black Africans were arrested in Kidal, with many being robbed, beaten or expelled towards the south. “
(of course, to us in the western world, they’re all black)
website with beautiful pictures of the various Tuareg groups
http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.com/2014/02/tuareg-people-africas-blue-people-of.html
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I don’t give a fxck what excuses whites give for being racist, they’re based on the same stupid, uneducated white supremacist racist stereotypes based on phenotypical differences from 200 years ago. Racism is a problem you whites need to deal with. And I don’t give a fxck about any “official” dictionaries, considering that the imbecilic white males with who run them put terms like mythandry…oops misandry in their online dictionaries with no proof that the word has ever existed at all in any kind of reality ever – except in the minds of racist, misogynistic, and entitled white males just like themselves. I’m disgusted by white – especially white males – that have an unfounded sense of superiority and an entirely unfounded perception themselves as being “objective”, “logical”, and “rational” when they clearly have agenda: obscuring white male supremacy so that it can be reinforced. I don’t give a fxck what willfully ignorant, entitled, racist whites who have a flimsy, false, and fraudulent white superiority complex think.
http://adonismirror.com/10152006_leader_misandry_and_misanthropy.htm
I don’t give a fxck about any whites who have the sheer gall to think THEY can define a system of oppression they directly benefit from and that they will NEVER personally experience in their lifetime. Abagond is basing HIS definition on the same racist and sexist fxcked up dictionary that racist whites do. I cannot IMAGINE not knowing what the fxck I’m talking about but yet having the most to say. Whites should feel fxcking stupid and embarrassed. Y’all never stop to think “What gives me the right?” or “I’ll never experience generations of perpetual racial oppression deems me and will deem my children’s, children to be the complete and utter antithesis of humanity, so why in the fxck am I arrogant enough to try tell people of African descent how to define it?”
Guess what? All of us who ACTUALLY know our history and are ACTUALLY in touch with everyday reality know who created the term race. We know who created the white supremacist ideology that buttressed the term race. We know that there is only ONE group that benefited and continues to benefit from systemic racism wherever they go in this world. Only. One. Group.
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“Discrimination against blacks linked to dehumanization, study finds”
“The research took place over six years at Stanford and Penn State under Eberhardt’s supervision. It involved mostly white male undergraduates. In a series of studies that subliminally flashed black or white male faces on a screen for a fraction of a second to “prime” the students, researchers found subjects could identify blurry ape drawings much faster after they were primed with black faces than with white faces. The researchers consistently discovered a black-ape association even if the young adults said they knew nothing about its historical connotations. The connection was made only with African American faces; the paper’s third study failed to find an ape association with other non-white groups, such as Asians.”
http://news.stanford.edu/pr/2008/pr-eber-021308.html
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@ Kartoffel
“Studies Expose ‘Apelike’ Stereotype Among Whites:”
“The notion of blacks as apelike “began with the first European contact with Africans,” Goff said. “There were illustrations of apes descending from the trees and having intercourse with African females. It was perhaps the most popular pictorial representation of people of African descent in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries.”
In the influential and now infamous 1854 book Types of Mankind, Josiah C. Nott and George Robins Gliddon rank Negroes between Greeks and chimpanzees on the evolutionary ladder.
Images of blacks as apelike creatures can still be found in many European and Latin American countries. The still-popular “Tintin” series of comic books by the Belgian writer and illustrator Herge include a 1931 installment that takes place in the Congo and depicts the natives as monkey-like.
Goff found that even contemporary college students who had no idea this connection had ever been made apparently had this notion in their subconscious. (For one of the studies, the participants were specifically asked whether they were aware of the stereotype of blacks as apelike. Only 9 percent answered affirmatively.)
So how is this being transmitted from generation to generation? “It’s a fascinating question,” Goff said. “If you look at the depictions of Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and Barack Obama in editorial cartoons, they are frequently simian-looking representations. It’s reasonable that could go unremarked upon, and yet feed these associations.””
http://www.psmag.com/books-and-culture/studies-expose-apelike-stereotype-among-whites-20708
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@ Kartoffel
“Lighter Skinned Blacks and Hispanics Are Seen as Being More Intelligent:New research suggests bias also can be found within racial categories.”
“Using data from the 2012 American National Election Study, he finds that “African American and Latino respondents with the lightest skin are several times more likely to be seen by whites as intelligent, compared with those with the darkest skin.”
“African Americans and Latinos deemed to have lighter skin tones were significantly more likely to be seen as intelligent by white interviewers,” Hannon reports. Further analysis found the interviewers had a distinct tendency to “look at two identically qualified minorities and assess the lighter skinned one as more intelligent.”
“Importantly, the effects of skin tone on intelligence assessment were independent of respondent education level, vocabulary test score, political knowledge assessment, and other demographic factors,” he adds.
While dismaying in themselves, these results have even more disturbing implications. “If white adults have a tendency to equate lighter skin with intelligence,” Hannon writes, “this may impact the quality and level of expectations white teachers and other school authorities have for certain students.””
http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/lighter-skinned-blacks-hispanics-viewed-as-more-intelligent
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@Linda
Thanks for the info. I’m checking it out now.
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@ Linda The fact still remains that this is talking about racism BEFORE 1400. And I’m not saying that there can’t be any Arab racism/colorism today [ESPECIALLY considering that Arab is an ethnicity and some Arabs are white] As I said, the Arab racism that you’re talking about were not prevalent until the 18th and 19th century. There were a few Arab who were prejudiced against Africans at that time but being African didn’t have the stigma of complete and utter non-humanity that we currently see globally thanks to white supremacy.
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@ Linda
Furthermore, if you believe that Arabized Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqis, Iranians, and Syrians are “real” Arabs even though not a one of them is ACTUALLY on the Arabian peninsula, then Arabized North Africans are real Arabs. Arab is is ethnicity, not a race.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/31348/Arab
Arabic singular masculine ʿArabī, singular feminine ʿArabiyyah, plural ʿArab, one whose native language is Arabic. (See also Arabic language.) Before the spread of Islam and, with it, the Arabic language, Arab referred to any of the largely nomadic Semitic inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula. In modern usage, it embraces any of the Arabic-speaking peoples living in the vast region from Mauritania, on the Atlantic coast of Africa, to southwestern Iran, including the entire Maghrib of North Africa, Egypt and Sudan, the Arabian Peninsula, and Syria and Iraq.
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@ Veronica
If I want to be understood, I have to use words in their common senses. A dictionary tells you what they are. The Oxford dictionary, for example, is based on a billion-word sample of English.
Far worse than the racism of dictionary editors is the fact that the English language itself has been shaped for hundreds of years by White racists. But, if I want to be understood, I have to use the language as it is.
I do not expect the dictionary to give me any insight into the true nature of “racism”, not anymore than I expect it to give me any insight into the true nature of “love” or “cholera”.
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“Veronica @ Furthermore, if you believe that Arabized Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqis, Iranians, and Syrians are “real” Arabs even though not a one of them is ACTUALLY on the Arabian peninsula, then Arabized North Africans are real Arabs. Arab is is ethnicity, not a race.”
Linda says,
They are all Semitic people, but as I mentioned before, the only “real Arabs” are the Saudis, ethnic Bedouins of the Arabian Peninsula, and the Bedouins are the original Arabs who spread Islam.
“The prophet Mohammed was from a Bedouin tribe of the Quraish. The Qur’an, first revealed to Mohammed, was later written and compiled in the Arabic language. The first converts to Islam came from the Bedouin tribes living in and around Mecca. Islam is embedded and deeply rooted in Bedouin culture.”
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/161483
(this article also gives a good idea of “colour” before 1400 in the peninsula)
Islam spread up north to the Levant, west in Africa, east to Mesopotamia (Iraq), Persia (ie Iran), India etc
I did not say the Lebanese, Jordanians, Iraqis, Iranians, and Syrians are “real” Arabs — you misinterpreted my statement:
Linda @ but being Arabized or Muslim does not protect them from racism based on skin colour, from the real Arabs (Saudi’s, Yemenis), Maghreb, Berbers, or Levants
if anything, I should remove the Yemenis as “real Arabs” because they are one of the original ethnic African Semites, who were conquered by the Bedouins as well.
The real Arabs were feared, and known for their “dark skin” by the lighter-skin Levants — the people of the Levant, are Lebanon, Syria (Assyrians), Jordan, and Palestine. They are not “real Arabs”.
the people of the Levant are also mixed with people from the Mediterranean (Greeks, Phoenicians, etc); and with the spread of Islam and the Bedouins (and their Arabic language), people in the Levant intermixed (like the Palestinians)
Same with the Africans, as the real Arabs moved west, they intermixed with the indigenous Africans
the north Africans of today, west of Egypt, are Maghrebs (ie Berbers) and mixed-race Berbers — even though most people just call them “Arabs”, which is a misnomer.
Just just because north Africans “speak” Arabic doesn’t make them Arabs.
If that’s the case, then you and I, are Englishmen because we speak English.
______
Furthermore, if you choose to take it a step further, there is no such thing as “race” either — races are a concept created by white scientific racist — to justify European slavery and colonization of Africa, the Americas, and Asia, and outright theft around the world, and to promote white supremacy
scientific racism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism
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“Veronica @ As I said, the Arab racism that you’re talking about were not prevalent until the 18th and 19th century. There were a few Arab who were prejudiced against Africans at that time but being African didn’t have the stigma of complete and utter non-humanity that we currently see globally thanks to white supremacy.”
Linda says,
I agree with your statement that Africans being stigmatized as non-humans, is something that was endorsed by white Europeans post 1400s
but I disagree with your belief that middle Eastern and north Africans were not racist or rather, practiced colourism, pre18th century.
Just because the north Africans and middle east people easily accept, mixed with and assimilate dark-skinned people before 1400s, does not mean they did not see skin tone colour or have bias/ prejudice against people based on physical traits… that is a false idea.
one that is all too much romanticized by African descendants of the diaspora
There is a reason the word Abd is attached to black (zanj) and dark-skinned people, it ‘s not all about religion or xenophobia.
Most Muslims will use the story of Bilal, companion of the prophet Mohammed, when they discuss anti-racism against black/dark skin people.
“One story relates how Muhammad defended Bilal after Abu Dharr Al-Ghifari, one of the Prophet’s companions, called Bilal “the son of a black woman.”
Annoyed with this emphasis of identifying people by skin color, Muhammad criticized Abu Dharr by stating “you are the man who still has the traits of ignorance in him.” The Prophet’s reference to Abu Dharr’s ignorance refers to the “pre-Islamic” state of jahiliyyah, an Arabic term meaning “the state of ignorance of Divine guidance.” This period of Arab history before Muhammad’s arrival was marked by “barbarism” and “lawlessness,” as described in the Quran.”
http://www.kashmirobserver.net/news/editorial/prophets-example-anti-racism
Ethnocentrism does not mean that people were blind to the differences in skin tone, hair texture, and other physical features.
But I agree, racism in north African and middle east against black African people, took on a different tone once the Europeans entered the slave trading game.
I don’t give the Arabic-speaking people of today a pass, anymore than I do white Europeans for racism.
I also try not to look at white western articles to gain my information about Africa because it’s written from their points of views and I believe most white western scholars have agendas. Even though I sited Daniel Pipes in my above comment, I used that article because the story of Miskeen Al Darimi is well known.
As a member of the African diaspora, I am a product of white western education system, just like you are — but I try to break the indoctrination by looking at what the Africans and middle eastern people have to say about themselves.
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Sociological and Political facts vs Genetic and Biological facts: Race is not a biological or genetic fact. Race is political and sociological fact. The notion of “race” is a ridiculous notion outside every other discipline EXCEPT politics and sociology. From Japan to Iceland to Saudi Arabia, African people are identified as African and [mis] treated in a particular way solely on their skin color and geographic ethnic origin. We don’t get a break from dealing with the racism of white lunkheads OR white supremacy: anytime we walk into a restaurant, apply for a job, try to rent an apartment, go to school, drive, walk, eat, sleep there is ALWAYS someone there reinforcing white supremacy and anti-blackness.
Whites use “race” in a very strategic way: as much they say “race doesn’t exist” it SUDDENLY exists very quickly for them whenever people of African descent claim Ancient Egypt. Language, political power, and economic profit are strongly interrelated. The same way racist white interlopers and parasites came out of the woodwork to identify as Native American so they could they could claim their indigenous land, is the same way racist white interlopers and parasites steal, diminish, or omit African achievements to push us out of humanity…they also want to officially be classified as “white Africans” to suit their racist economic and political objectives. The language they use allows them to continue to steal land, minerals, oil, and diamonds that aren’t theirs and monopolize the profits from it. They’re trying to invade Africa to steal its oil AND it metals for nuclear weapons as we speak. This will just further entrench their grip on the world. People of African descent can either define our identity for OURSELVES and profit from it OR we can continue to let sociopathic whites define and redefine our identity at will to so they can continue to racially oppress us.
I refuse to let them continue to oppress and dehumanize us all over the globe. We live in a racist world and it’s necessary for us to try to find a way to use it to our advantage. Not for supremacy but for FREEDOM from these people. Racial identity is always tied to geography. Once you identify with a continent you have a legitimate claim to its land and natural resources.
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@Linda
“What you and I need to do is learn to forget our differences. When we come together, we don’t come together as Baptists or Methodists. You don’t catch hell ’cause you’re a Baptist, and you don’t catch hell ’cause you’re a Methodist. You don’t catch hell ’cause you’re a Methodist or Baptist. You don’t catch hell because you’re a Democrat or a Republican. You don’t catch hell because you’re a Mason or an Elk. And you sure don’t catch hell ’cause you’re an American; ’cause if you was an American, you wouldn’t catch no hell. You catch hell ’cause you’re black.” – Malcolm X
“Every ethnic group in this country has a reference to some land base, some historical cultural base. African-Americans have hit that level of cultural maturity… To be called African-American has cultural integrity” – Jesse Jackson
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@ Linda
“Racial identity tied to happiness for black people, study finds”
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2011/racial-identity-tied-to-happiness-study-finds/
Kimberle Crenshaw: “To say that a category such as race or gender is socially constructed is NOT to say that that category has no significance in our world. …Clearly, there is unequal power, but there is nonetheless some degree of agency that people can and do exert in the politics of naming. And, it is important to note that identity continues to be as site of resistance for members of different subordinated groups.
We all can recognize the distinction between the claims ‘I am Black’ and the claim ‘I am a person who happens to be Black.’ ‘I am Black’ takes the socially imposed identity and empowers it as an anchor of subjectivity. ‘I am Black’ becomes not simply a statement of resistance, but also a positive discourse of self-identification, intimately linked to celebratory statements like the Black nationalist ‘Black is beautiful.’”
‘I am a person who happens to be Black,’ on the other hand, achieves self-identification by straining for a certain universality (in effect, ‘I am first a person’) and for a concomitant dismissal of the imposed category (‘Black’) as contingent, circumstantial, non-determinant.
There is truth in both characterizations, of course, but they function, quite differently depending on the political context. At this point in history, a strong case can be made that the most critical resistance strategy for dis-empowered groups is to occupy and defend a politics of social location rather than to vacate and destroy it.”
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Linda,
sure, use the language of the oppressors to liberate the oppressed.
but we were discussing Africans,
and Africans identified themselves by their Ethnicities back before 1400 (Hausa, Igbo, Mende, Akan, etc), and they still do now (as well as Nationality)
The sad part for us in Diaspora, is that we have to use racial labels created by white Europeans because our African slave ancestors lost their Ethnic identities — as their cultural identities were stripped away and merged in order create their new identities in the New World.
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@Linda
That is beyond willfully obtuse. If you don’t understand the difference between a historically oppressed target group using language and group identity for group cohesion in order to attain political and social power, access to and control of illegally appropriated land, resources, and a heritage, economic profit and power, and liberation vs. a socially, politically, and economically privileged oppressor group using language and group identity to continuously reinforce and naturalize systemic, historically based worldwide oppression that socially ranks the humanity of people based on genotype and phenotype that has resulted in the total dehumization, super-exploitation, and deaths of millions of people in the targeted, oppressed groups across the globe than I don’t know what to say to you. I am WELL AWARE that people of African descent used to identify by their ethnicities [Zulu, Amhara, Fulani, Herero, Dinka] sometimes the states that they belonged to [Ghana, Abyssinia, Egypt] but the legacy of 500 years of racial chattel slavery, scientific and academic racism, colonialism, modern day neo- colonialism, and globalized white supremacy due to the white mass media, the military, and their ever increasing grip on international trade. We live in a white supremacist society where people of African descent are their main target and the racial stereotypes and imbecilic beliefs of some of the most bigoted, hateful, brutal and barbaric whites on Earth are being exported across the globe – these savages still make excuses for burning African people alive at the stake and cutting off their body parts for souvenirs – white liberals and progressives included. Unlike whites, people of African descent don’t HAVE the freaking luxury of hoping that if we just ignore race, it will go away. So like I said, either we try to craft an identity that will empower us, or leave us at the mercy of racist sociopaths.
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@abagond
I hear you, but no one would ever use a dictionary to debate science with a scientist. They would ask for references and refuse to accept anything in the literature that was over 10 years old. But when it comes to the social sciences, all of the sudden it’s “Well, the dictionary doesn’t define racism as power plus prejudice!” No one EVER uses the dictionary this way in any other field of knowledge. The dictionary is rarely the reference book of choice – and basic [should be common] sense shows us why. Yet and still, arrogant, willfully obtuse whites [and others] constantly break it out when people are trying to have serious discussions of systemic racial oppression to use that shallow, imbecilic dictionary definition of racism. It’s ridiculous. People wouldn’t try to debate or discuss nuclear physics using the dictionary as their only reference and they shouldn’t be using it as their only reference to discuss race and racism.
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@ Veronica
1. What is your definition of racism?
2. Upon what authority do you base this definition?
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“Veronica @Linda
That is beyond willfully obtuse. If you don’t understand the difference between a historically oppressed target group using language and group identity for group cohesion …. than I don’t know what to say to you”
Linda says.
Veronica, I willfully did not want to move to the address where you set the new goal post.
we were discussing Africans and Arabs/middle eastern people
and as far as me not understanding….trust, I understand only too well.
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@Linda
I’ve been feeling the same way too. Whether it’s Black, Colored, Negr@, or what have you, we’ve always been defined in relation with Whiteness. I think this is part of the reason many White people are offended by “African American”, because the name signifies that we have begun to forge a cultural identity that doesn’t reference our relationship with White people.
Still, I think “African American” is insufficient as a name. Names like Hausa, Igbo, Mende, and Akan are intertwined with the history and origins of the respective Nations/Tribes. “African American” is a bit too vague imho.
FWIW, some West Africans refer to Afro-Americans as “Akata”, which means:
1. A panther (in tribute to the Black Panthers).
-or-
2. “A feral cat living outside the house” alluding to our not living on the African continent.
The term is often used derogatorily, but any word can be used like that. Negative baggage aside, “Akata” does almost perfectly resonate with the specific history of African Americans and is Yoruba in origin. We’ve taken on many names throughout our history, but perhaps it’s time we take a name that is derived from the Niger-Congo languages.
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@ Abagond
I think Audrey Smedley, the anthropologist, has definitions of race and racism are very comprehensive.
Click to access SocialConstructionRace.pdf
“Race as biology is Fiction, Racism as a Social problem is real”
http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-06.htm
http://www.understandingrace.org/about/statement.html
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/488030/race
There is also a very good definition of race and racism from from this blog written by a sociologist:
http://everydaysociologist.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-race-and-ethnicity-continues-to.html?m=1
“Why Race and Ethnicity Continue to Matter”
And sociologist Lisa Wade discusses the definition of race and white scientific, academic, and conservative racists:
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/jason-richwine-race-iq-genetics-95765.html
“Yes, let’s talk about race and IQ”
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@ Abagond
My definition of race and racism: “Race” is not a “neutral” description for groups of people, they inherently ranked geographical “subspecies” of mankind that people of European descent in the Americas and Europe created and assigned to people on a global scale. They did this in order to rectify their inhumane behavior – chattel slavery, colonization, fullscale genocide and Holocaust – that was increasingly hypocritical in the face of their “all men are created equal” Enlightement ideals. Europeans created a myth of “inferior, primitive races” and ONE globally “superior” race – themselves. They created a racial hierarchy that placed Europeans at the top, Native Americans and Asians in in the middle, and Africans at the bottom relegated to perpetual non-human status. They used science to attempt to back up their myths of white supremacy and many and STILL attempting to use science to those ends today. Racism is based on the myth of white supremacy and takes institutions of government, society, and culture to implement as a system.
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@Abagond
Oops, I mean “Race is not a “neutral” description for groups of people. “Races” are inherently ranked geographical “subspecies” of mankind that people of European descent in the Americas and Europe first created then assigned to different groups of people on a global scale.” Sorry, typing on my phone, if you need clarification on anything else please let me know.
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@ Linda
Many people define being Arab as an ethnic category because that is how they define themselves in the North African – East African – West Asian region. Some of the countries in North and East Africa belong to the Arab League. Se people in those countries define themselves as being Arab or African or both. But I dont think their skin color makes them any less Arab then a Palestianian or Syrian from the Levant who is Arabized. Yes, I agree there is Anti-African racism among Arabs, but it did not become prevalent or dominant ideology or school of thought until the 1800’s – after 2500 some odd years of trading back and forth. I think we ALL know who exactly is to blame for the entrenched globalized racism, the depopulation of Africa, and the continual underdevelopment of regions or countries wherever African people are located. Only ONE group has had a deep, abiding, and continuing academic, economic, social, and political interest in our perpetual status as non-humans. If we’re not human, they can and will continue to do all manner of uncivilized and sickening oppressive acts to us, unless we stop them. Especially white Americans with their disgusting history of racial terrorism.
I got this from the diversity dictionary of Texas A&M University:
Arab American: Refers to immigrants (and their descendents) from the Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle East and North Africa including the members of the Arab League ranging from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east (this includes Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen). Despite the diversity among these countries, they share a common historical experience, linguistic and cultural background, and political tradition that make them a distinct ethnic group. Adapted from: Kayyali, R. A. (2006, July 1). The People Perceived as a Threat to Security: Arab Americans Since September 11. In Migration Policy Institute. Retrieved June 12, 2014, from http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/people-perceived-threat-security-arab-americans-september-11. Nigem, E. T. (1986). Arab Americans: Migration, Socioeconomic and Demographic Characteristics. International Migration Review, 20(3), 629-649.
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Veronica, what is wrong with you? you’re feeding back to me what I said to you in my earlier comments– which is, in a nutshell
“Africans and other middle easterners have adapted Arab culture and language…. they’ve adapted the language and culture of the people, the Bedouin ARABS, whose religion they converted to… and that they practice colourism”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/racism-before-1400/#comment-278010
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/racism-before-1400/#comment-278019
not to be mean, but frankly, you have not said or added anything new into this conversation.
this conversation is stuck in a loop…so with that said —
with this subject, I’m done.
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@ Linda
My point this entire conversation is that North Africans ARE ” real Arabs” you were trying to make a distinction between Arabs from Arabia and Arabized Arabs when there really IS no distinction. That has been my point all along. And honestly I’m not sure what you’ve been challenging me on all this time. I was acknowledged that Arab racism existed, but it just didn’t exist in medieval times. What existed back then was ethnocentrism with a few prejudiced Arabs but Africans – mixed race or not – could be assimilated. Arab racism truly came into fruition when whites imposed white supremacy upon them in the 1800’s. The only one with the problem here was you, and you didn’t enlighten me on anything I wasnt aware of. You really didn’t add anything to the conversation except for going back and forth with me over nothing. Nice talking to you. Thanks.
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my original point was that North Africans and most middle Easterners ARE NOT “real Arabs” —
if speaking the language and practicing the culture, turns you into the people whose religion you adapted or the people who invaded your country, then
you must be English and white American because you speak English, received white western education, and continue to live, work, and participate in white American culture.
and no one was challenging you.. I was correcting the “incorrect” assumption, which you keep repeating, as if it’s true. Assimilation does not equal “no racism” –
Arabs, North Africans, and Middle Eastern did not need Europeans to teach them about racism. If you choose to keep your head in the sand about then, then I will leave you with your fantasies.
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and Veronica, let’s be honest — Of Course, I taught you things you did not know
because the mere fact that you keep calling North Africans “Arabs” indicates that you don’t anything about them or about how they feel about themselves or their history.
North Africans are called “Maghrebs” for a reason and you have yet to acknowledge that they are different than Arabs.. you keep insisting because they are Muslims and speak Arabic, that they are “real Arabs”
this thought pattern proves that you don’t know anything about those people
That’s why I said that I like to read sources from the Africans themselves– because white western scholars, typically like to just label people however they please
and as someone who is a product of white western education, you are doing the same thing.
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and before you get too angry at me, let me say this
I do recognize that the North Africans call themselves “Arabs” but this is due to them being “Arabized” because of Islam;
and they also recognize that Islam is what unites them, not an Ethnicity, but their religion
they also continue to do their own version of “taking back” their ancestral identities because Ethnically, they know that they are “Maghrebs”
that’s why Muammar Gaddafi established the Maghreb Arab Union (UMA) in 1989. The members are Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, and Tunisia.
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/3998
(notice, no Egypt or Sudan –even though they call themselves Arabs also)
Gaddafi wanted to strengthen the bond, trade, and cooperation between Maghreb countries in order to be a united front to deal with the EU.
but the first union did not work out because of problems between Morocco and Algeria, and general in-fighting.
in 1998, Gaddafi refocused his attention, and created the CEN-SAD (Community of Sahel and Saharan States) because this was more inclusive of “African” countries and he wanted to pull North Africa closer to their southern brethren
http://www.uneca.org/oria/pages/cen-sad-community-sahel-saharan-states
“CEN-SAD’s current members are : Benin, Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Chad, Côte d’Ivoire, Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Libya, Mali, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Togo, and Tunisia.”
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“taleoflions,
The term is often used derogatorily, but any word can be used like that. Negative baggage aside, “Akata” does almost perfectly resonate with the specific history of African Americans and is Yoruba in origin. We’ve taken on many names throughout our history, but perhaps it’s time we take a name that is derived from the Niger-Congo languages.”
Linda says,
Absolutely! interesting idea
I’m Jamaican, and everyone assumes our African ancestors were Akan, because they were the majority on the island– so Igbo and Wolof don’t get enough mention.
I personally think that African descendants should take advantage of today’s DNA technology, to try and learn about “who they are” as far as African ethnic identities
If you ask white Americans to list their Ethnicities, what do they always say:
“I’m English, Swedish, French, German, Polish and my grandmother was 1/16th Native American”
I think it would also be empowering, if African Americans, are asked the same question,
they could also list all of their Ethnic identities as well: “I’m Igbo, Mende, Yoruba, Cherokee, English, and French” — (if someone chose to admit the European admixture)
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You’re absolutely right Linda. More people of African descent should delve further into their genealogy. It is empowering.
http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/07/13/from_slavery_in_maryland_to_freedom_in_canada.html
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“my original point was that North Africans and most middle Easterners ARE NOT “real Arabs” — if speaking the language and practicing the culture, turns you into the people whose religion you adapted or the people who invaded your country, then you must be English and white American because you speak English, received white western education, and continue to live, work, and participate in white American culture.”
Dr. Molefi Asante: “When a Sudanese doctoral student at the University of Pennsylvania asked me to assist him in finding a job in the United States after he had completed his degree, I inquired about his position on the political situations in Sudan…He said to me that he was an Arab in Sudan but in the United States he was an African. I did not quite understand the distinction because he looked just like any other African in the United States. But he explained that some of the ethnic groups of Africans in the north of Sudan had given up their language and adopted Arabic as their language and culture and so saw themselves as Arabs. On the other hand, in the United States, a person’s African origin, skin color, appearance, and history determined whether or not one was black.” (History Lessons)
Willfully obtuse.The process of Arabization has greatly expanded the term “Arab” to many NON-ARAB groups such as Palestinians and other groups from the Levant and North Africa. Many “Arabs” in existence today are actually Arabized people.
“and no one was challenging you.. I was correcting the “incorrect” assumption, which you keep repeating, as if it’s true. Assimilation does not equal “no racism””
I didn’t say that, now did I. I said they were able to assimilate in the past, but in the 1800’s that was made increasingly impossible by increasingly widespread Arab racism. I never said there weren’t some prejudiced Arabs. There WERE. But it was never the rigid, severe, entrenched, widespread Arab racism where racial categories could NEVER be transcended didn’t exist in fruition until whites imposed the white supremacy system upon people in the region. White supremacy NEVER allowed for any kind of assimilation EVER. No exceptions. Unless you phenotypically passed for a “white” person of European descent, you could not assimilate. That just wasn’t true over the 2,500 some odd years of trade between Africans and Arabs. Arabs expressed ethnocentrism more than racism.
“Arabs, North Africans, and Middle Eastern did not need Europeans to teach them about racism. If you choose to keep your head in the sand about then, then I will leave you with your fantasies.”
The only one who’s fantasizing is you…thinking that you enlightened about me anything that I wasn’t already aware of. You haven’t added anything to the conversation except for going back and forth with me over nothing.
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“Veronica,
The only one who’s fantasizing is you…thinking that you enlightened about me anything that I wasn’t already aware of. You haven’t added anything to the conversation except for going back and forth with me over nothing.”
Linda says,
If you say so Veronica — wink, wink
I see you keep using my words and following my lead — since you practically quoted me word for word in the above comment.
and I’m cool with that — I’m here to assist you when Google doesn’t meet your informational needs
my intention wasn’t to get into a slanging match with you, by the way
but you keep persisting in prolonging this worn out conversation, which is officially now in a “non-stop loop” because you can’t let it go
as for not “adding anything to the conversation”–really?!?
real question?
“Have you just added anything new by quoting Dr. Molefi Asante ?”
an African-American convert to Islam, who tells the story of a Sudanese student who ADMITS that northern Sudanese are Africans that gave up their own language and adopted a foreign culture in order to be “Arabized”
like I said, if that’s all it takes, then you must be a white Englishwoman.
the problem we seem to have, is that you and I have a different view of My definition of real.
when I say “real” — I’m not talking Nationality, I’m talking genetics
You call yourself “American” because that’s your nationality and “black” because that’s the designation of your ethnic group/ culture ie race
You are a “western woman” because that’s the term that means, “people who are products of white, western European/American culture”– the culture that educated you and that you grew up in — you are a product of white American culture.
all that combined does not take away from the fact that you are still an “African descendant” and that you carry the DNA of your African ancestors
So the real question would be- “why are YOU arguing with me?”
my definition of someone who is a “real Arab” — is someone whose ethnic group comes from the Bedouin Arabs or people of Saudi Peninsula, the original and only genetically “real” Arabs in the middle East.
the same way that a white “South African” to me is not a “real African”, they are European descendants; the same way to me, north Africans genetically are not “real Arabs”, they are African Maghreb/ Berbers
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Veronica,
If you weren’t feeling so emotional about me not agreeing with your assertion that north Africans, Levants, south/central Asians are not “real Arabs”,
then you would have noticed that I also agreed with you about Africans and middle Easterners being ethnocentric.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/racism-before-1400/#comment-278019
Linda to Veronica@
“I agree with your statement that Africans being stigmatized as non-humans, is something that was endorsed by white Europeans post 1400s
but I disagree with your belief that middle Eastern and north Africans were not racist or rather, practiced colourism, pre-18th century
Ethnocentrism does not mean that people were blind to the differences in skin tone, hair texture, and other physical features.
But I agree, racism in north African and middle east against black African people, took on a different tone once the Europeans entered the slave trading game.”
I never equated “Arab” racism to white European/American racism – I disagreed with you trying to downplay “Arab” racism by trying to say it was the lesser of 2 evils
Arabs and Berbers saw colour and discriminated based on that – and this attitude adversely affected dark-skinned Africans
so no, I will not go along with your sentiments that they were only a “few” bad apples in the bunch. in a nutshell, that’s all I really disagreed with.
Let it go Veronica, so that we can move on to more proactive discussions.
at the end of the day, you and I agree on more things than we disagree. We both agree that white Supremacy hurts us all and that’s the system that we are facing today.
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[…] By Abagond Racism before 1400 was not common to most human societies. It is not mainly rooted in the human condition.The common mix-up is between ethnocentrism and racism:racism – dividing humans into “races” based on physical appearance, like skin colour, with the aim of ranking them from highest to lowest according to supposedly unchangeable, inborn qualities, like intelligence, civilization, moral character or beauty.ethnocentrism – judging other cultures based on one’s own. This leads to the illusion that one’s own culture is best. From this comes stuff like “American exceptionalism”, non-Greeks as “barbarians”, China as the “Middle Kingdom” and Inuits as “the Real People”.Ethnocentrism is common if not universal in human history. Racism is not. – Click through for more – […]
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China is an interesting case…Don Wyatt wrote an entire book about premodern conceptions of blackness in China, but it’s all conjectural because ‘blackness’ in Ancient China did not necessarily mean Africa.
Wyatt’s book contains some interesting points, though…ancient Chinese philosophers conceived of ‘black’ people in a way that is quite amusing but also thought-provoking. On the historical presence of Africans in precolonial China, it’s not clear, but Wyatt seems to suggest that most ‘Blacks’ from African who were present in China were slaves or servants with Muslim merchants or traders, which in turn shaped Chinese perceptions of ‘blackness’ as being related to a servile status.
I suppose things changed when Chinese expeditions traveled to the coast of East Africa.
http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/14684.html
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Reblogged this on IBHE Collaborative University.
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