“The Isis Papers: The Keys to the Colors” (1991) contains 25 essays written by Dr Frances Cress Welsing in the 1970s and 1980s. Dr Welsing, a practising US psychiatrist, builds on the ideas of Neely Fuller and Carl Jung to understand the nature of racism (White supremacy).
She lays out her main ideas in the first four chapters and then in the other 21 applies them to different things, like guns, rape, the Jewish Holocaust, AIDS, teenaged mothers, Black love, Black fear, “justifiable homicide” and so on.
Her main idea:
“The white global collective remains genetically recessive to the black, brown, red and yellow global majority and lives each day and each minute of every hour in the continuous fear of white annihilation by the global majority of genetic dominants. This fundamental fear of albino isolation, abandonment and genetic annihilation is at the core of Western civilization – a civilization structured to ensure white genetic survival. This survival plan necessitates the subjugation and control of all non-white peoples. I define this subjugation and control as the white supremacy system.”
In the US, Thomas Jefferson and Jim Crow racists both feared that if they did not keep down Blacks it would either lead to a race war or race mixing – either way the White race would be destroyed. Nazi Germany killed the racially impure Jews for much the same reason.
US racism today is less open and conscious, but deep down it is pretty much the same.
- Thus police brutality.
- Thus the huge amounts the US spends on weapons – guns, tanks, missiles.
- Thus tanning.
- Thus the strange hang-up White men have about Black men’s penises.
- Thus guns that symbolically look and work like penises with testicles, guns which Whites call “the great equalizer” – meaning the great equalizer compared to Black penises. (Because Whites will not admit to much of their racism, not even to themselves, it gets pushed down into the subconscious and comes out symbolically like that.)
Whites deep down have little sense of self-worth because they lack melanin. Thus their racism, which grows out of insecurity, not confidence. Thus their need to “win” at all costs.
White Jesus: Since Jesus was in fact Black, this is a case of Whites worshipping themselves – and controlling non-White Christians by having them believe deep down that God is White.
Melanin: The lack of melanin in Whites leads to fears of genetic annihilation and lack of self worth. It also means Whites lack a sixth sense since melanin is found in the brain as well as the skin. That is why they do not understand things as well as non-Whites, why they are out of harmony with nature and with others.
Advice for Blacks: Blacks need to understand White supremacy, that Whites have no interest in acting morally or truly helping non-Whites. Whites destroyed the Black family, but it is something that is extremely important that Blacks do have some control over. Blacks can start by putting off having children till at least 20, if not 30.
See also:
- melanin
- Black people according to Thomas Jefferson
- Jim Crow racism
- Hitler: Race and People
- Martin Luther King, Jr’s Riverside speech against the Vietnam War
- Was Jesus white?
- Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks – another take on racism by a Black psychiatrist
- Why do whites hate, demonize, fear and look down on blacks? – my own take
Sounds as good as any other theory. Makes a lot of sense, we always knew racism, like many other hate fueled human characteristics, comes from inadequacies within the perpetrator and not the victim.
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Even if this is 80% true, which it is not. But even so, lets say it were. At least (at the very least) 20% is pure dog dodo. Let me ask you something. Let’s say you took your favorite ice cream and made it 20% dogcrapola , you know what it becomes? 100% crapola. You could say the same thing for David Duke and his minions , some of what he says is true, but the stuff that isn’t is so racist and heinous that you must reject all of it. I would advise you to do the same here Abagond. I’m surprised you even posted this.
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I found this review from a white perspective, that also seems fair. “I try to approach every book with an open mind and give the author a chance to explain themselves before I settle on an opinion. This book pushed that a bit, simply in its closed minded regurgitation of “facts”.
Race is a state of mind. It cracks me up to hear people say black and white, because the truth is that there are only browns and yellows and many shades in between. There are people in India who are darker than 90% of “black” people in America…but they’re not “Black”. Skin pigment levels come from the body’s ability to absorb Vitamin D from the sun. People in Africa needed more pigment to protect themselves from UV rays. In Europe, there is less sun and so the skin had to lighten to compensate in order to get adequate Vitamin D. Now we drink so much milk in America that skin color doesn’t matter as far as Nature is concerned. That’s the truth, and pretty simple. Nature and God don’t design people with motives, we are simply designed to be the most efficient in whatever environment we live in.
What this book fails to do is to address the fact that there are BILLIONS of people in the world that aren’t “White” or “Black”. People in Asia range in skin color from near white to darker than dark, as in the South Pacific. What about the Native Americans who came across the Bering Straight? They range in color depending on what part of the Western Hemisphere they settled on. What about the Inuit peoples of North America…are they evil as well because their skin is “white”? Oh wait, they’re not “White”, because like I said, race is mindset and a stigma made by people with an agenda.
We live in a world now where we are trying to overcome constant frustration and personal struggles. We all have drama in our lives and we all have pain. Some have more than others, and some choose to rise above it and become stronger. You can’t counter anger and prejudice with more anger and prejudice. Look at the Middle East. Things only escalate, “tit for tat” until the stakes are so high that we’re slaughtering each other in the name of some B.S. cause. There’s no amount of fancy word spin that can justify the slaughter of innocent people and children. Anything that stirs up feelings of animosity and anger only serve to create tension and the kind of world where we turn on each other for the stupidest things.
You want to know about “RACE”, then look inside yourself, because as far as science goes, it’s all simple and has nothing to do with brain capacity and inferiority. It’s all about how much sun exposure people got and their bodies method to adapt. White people pulled the same crap back in the 1700’s to prove that blacks were stupid and capable of only labor. Hitler did the same to dehumanize the Jews. Notice the word “dehumanize”, because that’s all that race issues accomplish. They strip the victims of their dignity and ability to be seen as people…..as human.
This book serves to only fire people up in a time and age when we have more than enough “fire” and anger on our plates. ”
-Patrick
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I often wonder if you have ghost writers that lack your intelligence or experience. Like one of your kids? I’m sorry , but that’s what I think of this post.
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Dave…Did you actually read this book?
You are aware that this woman is a Doctor in psychiatry?
“Race is a state of mind.”…………..
Excuse me but it was the slave owners who placed people of color, slaves, into color categories for purposes of price and what they believed were characteristics solely based on skin color. You are right though there is only one race of man.
“We live in a world now where we are trying to overcome constant frustration and personal struggles. We all have drama in our lives and we all have pain. Some have more than others, and some choose to rise above it and become stronger. You can’t counter anger and prejudice with more anger and prejudice.”…………
This comment is a racist comment if you happen to be a white person, why? If I have to explain why a white persons struggles and a Black persons struggles are like night and day, we have just provided the group with one of the biggest contributors to the very ANGER you speak of….If you are aware of history, of the civil rights movement of the 60’s, the huge gap in quality of life and the lingering racism and discrimination Black people have and still go through then I shouldn’t have to explain to you why a white persons struggles and a Black persons struggles are just a tad different.
Why you and I worry about getting a decent paying job, our Black counterparts have the added stress of wondering just how many places are going to see him as a Black man and not an employee or how many will be racist and not even consider him seriously. Why you and I drive down our neighborhood to get some milk at the store the only thing we have to worry about is the school bus with the blinking red lights that will cost us 2 minutes of waiting, while our Black countrymen have to drive in constant fear of Gang members who will mistake them for another gang member or the police mistaking him for a gang member, you know driving while Black….
The list goes on and on and on…Blacks were enslaved by whites, Blacks were counted as only 3/5 a person by our white government, Blacks were forbidden by law to touch white people, talk to white people, sit next to white people, marry a white person, be in the same room as a white woman, Blacks were being lynched and their churches burned to the ground just a mere 50 years ago by white people, Blacks are the poorest group of people in America, Blacks are the most discriminated against, Blacks are the most jailed, most profiled, most killed by cops, have the worst schools and education materials, Black children that go missing get just a fraction of media time that white children get…… are you getting the picture. You cannot compare a white persons struggles to a Black persons struggles.
Yes there are exceptions and many Black people have good lives and many white people have bad lives but speaking in general as a whole there is no comparison of white struggle to Black struggle and for our country and our white population to discount such a or make it look COMMON is complete and utter willful ignorance.
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I hate when we try to perpetuate what Jesus was,he wasn’t black or white in my opinion he was a Jew ,he wasn’t African,he wasn’t black..
I do agree that whites will never see blacks as an equal,some think black people are of a different species and that’s no lie..they see black people as peasants of no real value,in the words of a beggar or tramp that was at a bus stop who was white,in front of a large crowd who were of 20% white and maybe 40 black and 5% other,he was talking gibberish most of the time but he shouted quite confidently to the blacks ‘white people only see you as slaves’ nobody but one black women acknowledged him,she walked up to him and said ‘I know’…and he as drunk as was,spoke the truth..as the saying is..drunk words are sober thoughts.
Quite often when a white women dates a black man,there is a superficial reason why she does,she is rejected from other white males because she’s fat or ugly,she wants to taste the forbidden fruit,she wants mixed looking kids. ..there is always a superficial reason.
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@becy
Re there is always a superficial reason a white woman dates a black man.
So why would a white woman date a white man?
Usually because of attraction, compatibility or economic reasons. Or a blend of all of these.
I would agree that some white women date black for the reasons you suggest. However those extremely shallow types would be in the minority.
White women and all other women will look for the same things in a black man as they would any other.
Think on this: perhaps some white woman HATE the fact that a significant proportion of white men are racist and therefore wish not to date white for that reason alone.
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However, isn’t a “white sense of self-worth” racist — if I say “I’m White and I’m proud and not ashamed of that”, isn’t that racist? (And treating it as racist is not unreasonable: it seems >99% of those who say this also have something negative to say about Blacks in some form or another, it’s a rallying cry for hate groups, etc.) So it seems like there is a contradiction here. What am I missing?
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@William I get what you are saying , but when you try to explain everything in terms of a group of people , there are so many grey areas that your head will just explode. Like the book talks of penis size. I don’t go around worrying about that personally, I sure some white men do, but I’m sure there are black dudes that want to stare and every white man’s junk at the gym like he was doing some science experiment *I’ve experienced that, and the guys face in shock that I actually am a human male that has a normal penis.* . I haven’t read the book, but from the outline Abagond gave it is total bs, I don’t care how many degrees the writer has.
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Just to be clear; The Isis Papers and The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation are two separate publications. Only the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation was submitted for peer review.
In this video you can see a copy of The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation if you scroll to the 6:30 mark:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3-8gQmPvyo)
Im not sure how a person can obtain a copy of it; maybe by calling or writing her?
I got my copies directly from her and would quote from them but they are packed away.
When discussing Francis Cress Welsing, especially with white people, I suggest focusing on the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation because it is the foundation for the rest of her work including The Isis Papers. It is my opinion that everything white people say and write about Dr Welsing is an attempt to divert from her theory of color confrontation.
BTW– William Shockley shared a Nobel Prize for inventing the transistor; so if you are using a computer to view abagonds site, you have William Shockley to thank.
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“BTW– William Shockley shared a Nobel Prize for inventing the transistor; so if you are using a computer to view abagonds site, you have William Shockley to thank.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why the mention of Shockley, Thwack? Is he your daddy? Or is it just your usual affinity towards folks with racist inclinations shining through, again?
Speaking of racist inclinations, how’s YOUR boys over at Stormfront doing?
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@ thwack
“…In this video you can see a copy of The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation if you scroll to the 6:30 mark:…”
Check your video link again thwack! Its a “Barenaked Ladies” music video?
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Thanks Kwamla.
This one should be it:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mYSskoYJKo)
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@Kwamla
Maybe Dr. Welsing makes a surprise guest appearance in this particular Barenaked Ladies music video at the 6:30 mark, though I must admit I wouldn’t know why ….
Thwack says some very strange things at times, like how he used to be 17 – and white. Maybe he’s the opposite of Joshua Solomon, except he decided to remain in his new identity, whereas Joshua could not.
It’s funny watching Thwack continually discredit his presence here with all manner of foolishness.
LOL
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An amazing book! One of the first books I read that “awaken” me. I suggest all black read this book. It will give you a better understanding of the sickness known as white supremacy. Welsing wrote a masterpiece! She is an elder I really respect. Much respect to that beautiful queen.
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Just Me
Why the mention of Shockley, Thwack? Is he your daddy? Or is it just your usual affinity towards folks with racist inclinations shining through, again?
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Not at all.
Matter of fact I submit both Shockley and Welsing share the same deep intellect and drive that is characteristic of all great and vast thinkers.
Sorry it went over your head.
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While I am sketchy on the Melanin portion of her work, I think she is definitely on to something. I will, however, have to elaborate at a later time. 😦
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Despite what has been said, guns were created because first and foremost, it was a “Dog Eat Dog” world. Yes slave owners feared their former/current breed slaves wondering about but I still think it had more to do with an everyman for himself mentality of the times more so. These and other books have serious flaws and gaps that are missing big grey chunks. It’s back to that term again Circumstantial Context….
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George Ryder
i find it hard to believe that a lack of self esteem has led to all the atrocities whites have committed against blacks over the centuries.
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George is deploying the argument from personal incredulity; but I digress.
Thats NOT the mechanism outlined in The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation; thats a “side effect.”
The mechanism is the understanding on the part of a white person that:
a) The ability to produce pigmentation is a dominant genetic trait.
b) The white population is a numerical minority on planet Earth.
This leads white people to suffer the revelation they could be f*cked off the planet PERMANENTLY.
Therefore, they must dominate all resources and people in the known universe to prevent this from happening.
(Disclosure: This “mechanism” is an area of disagreement between Dr. Welsing and Neely Fuller)
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@ thwack
While I listened to the correct video link and heard William Shockley present his views…
“…Matter of fact I submit both Shockley and Welsing share the same deep intellect and drive that is characteristic of all great and vast thinkers…”
I found them to be profoundly racist and blatantly exposed by both Dr Frances Welsing and the chairperson. How you would equate them to sharing the same deep intellect is beyond me?.
Expounding racist views (and being oblivious to them) shows poor and low development of not just intellect but spiritual and emotional intelligence!!!.
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Dave….yes you are right, there are thousands of variables, each case is relative but it sounds like the author is using facts, stereotypes and theory to attempt to explain, in general, why white men in particular dislike, mistreat, feel they need to conquer and fear people of color around the world historically. Penis envy is an apt argument given the attention it gets and most women who have experiences with both black and white men have noticed a difference but like you said there are examples on both sides proving their claims.
becy….Becy I am sorry to break the news to you but being Jewish is not an ethnic classification, it is a religion. Second of all Jesus was not Jewish, he was born of the tribe of Judah who practiced what we know as the Jewish religion of today but Jesus did not practice the Jewish religion, his entire agenda was to refute and alter the status quot of the Jewish religion. He did not follow any of the Jewish practices; the Sabbath, eating Pork, etc…He changed the Jewish religion into what we know as Christianity even though in the U.S. many do not follow his instructions but claim to be Christian.
Second of all I hate to tear down your wall of denial but people born in that part of the world are Brown and Black, so yes Jesus was a person of color and not the white GQ Hippy model portrayed in many white publications.
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George Ryder
“Since Jesus was in fact Black”
Are we applying the one drop rule here?
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No,
but if the principle of uniformitarianism is good enough for Darwin and Lyell, I suggest its consideration when reviewing any historical civil record.
Uniformitarianism: the principle that the BEST explanations for past events are found in currently operating events.
Therefore, since white people are well known offenders for whitewashing recent history and writing influential, wise and/or dominant/powerful black people out of the recent historical record; this behavior should be suspected as in operation during the ancient historical period.
Columbus discovered America
Elvis is the king of rock and roll
Jesus Christ was a white man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism
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Kwamla
@ thwack
I found them to be profoundly racist and blatantly exposed by both Dr Frances Welsing and the chairperson. How you would equate them to sharing the same deep intellect is beyond me?.
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Ah yes, another argument from personal incredulity.
(((shakin my head)))
*The price of wisdom is regret*
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@William, have you ever thought that sometimes people mistreat others, because they themselves were mistreated. Sometimes that can happen because of race then it becomes a cycle that is never broken. There are some whites that will be offended by this book. Maybe then they will write a race based book that isn’t too complimentary towards blacks in general, then that makes someone black mad …. (maybe that is why this book was written) and so on and so on. I think you get the picture.
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Dave:
William, have you ever thought that sometimes people mistreat others, because they themselves were mistreated. Sometimes that can happen because of race then it becomes a cycle that is never broken. There are some whites that will be offended by this book. Maybe then they will write a race based book that isn’t too complimentary towards blacks in general, then that makes someone black mad …. (maybe that is why this book was written) and so on and so on. I think you get the picture.
Who are the people that were mistreated and then mistreated others?
Were these people systematically mistreated, abused, subjugated etc… over 100’s of years? Are they still facing mistreatment now though in a less obvious way?
This is not a game mate, its not tit for tat. This is real $hit.
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Dave…believe me I totally get what you are saying and each and every person on this planet is who they are because of their experiences and not their skin color. Each and every case is relative and white people of today that are good loving people and have nothing to do with oppression and racism may be offended by such a book. But even though it appears to be a generalization of whites, I don’t believe it is. I believe it is only a theory of what caused whites to act the way they have over the last 1000 years or so and why white supremacy still exist in a more ambiguous way today within our learned behavior. The word white supremacy is normally used to describe horrible people who commit horrible acts of hate and violence towards others but in this context it is used to describe a learned behavior and a privilege of sorts, so it should not be taken as the more offensive use of the word.
I have an added theory but it is based on a very limited knowledge of world history at this point. Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t the Persians once almost conquer the entire European continent? If my memory serves me the anglo saxons, Germanians, Vikings and so on were considered savages by the more developed southern kingdoms. I believe they regularly were whooped by the darker skinned nations to the south. Maybe this is what led to their dislike and need to conquer these nations once they were able to get advanced in weaponry and numbers to conquer these peoples….Just a thought, it would explain a lot.
Remember, “Everything can be explained as long as you know where it came from.”
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Thwack and George Ryder……lets not forget Columbus MURDERED 2 million native people and he is an American hero. To me that sums up the lies and bullshit the white mans history is based on. I mean come on what is real and what is bullshit? How are we going to trust our known history when we find out it is all bullshit?
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Hate is also taught. The negative effects a book like this might have on a member of another race can also have an effect on a member of the same. Some that read this will now think blacks are superior to whites , thus justifying their own hate… mate..
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Dave
Hate is also taught. The negative effects a book like this might have on a member of another race can also have an effect on a member of the same. Some that read this will now think blacks are superior to whites , thus justifying their own hate… mate.
Can you unteach hate? Would you say that most PoC in America have been free from experiencing hateful responses based on their race/skin colour? Do you think that a lot of white people have problems with comprehension even though some commenters say that whites are superior in intellect?
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“Whites deep down have little sense of self-worth because they lack melanin. Thus their racism, which grows out of insecurity, not confidence. Thus their need to “win” at all costs.”—-I believe she really hit the nail on the head with this one. If you think about simple discussions with whites then you will realize it always leads to a win/lose scenario for them. Not saying melanin has anything to do with it, but I do feel a lot of them put their self-worth into how much they can win.
Take for example the idea of if others had taken over America first they would do the same or the idea that they made the most technological advances. It is all this I win theory. A theory usually argued by whites that have not accomplished anything.
As to the penis hang ups, I have to agree with her as well. Whites have an unnatural hang up on black and Asian penis. This translates into how they treat them. Blacks having bigger penises on average seem to bring about some insecurities in whites. While Asian penis seems to bring about some feelings of domination. The leeway they give Asians seem to be because of a idea that they will never dominate them or overthrow them and thus they give them enough to appear as if they are succeeding, but still hold a level of dominance over them. With blacks they fear a possibility of them overthrowing and so they give them as little leeway as possible. The biggest arguments I see from whites is “Asians will help us” when talk of race war come up.
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@Omnipresent Well I’m not in the “blacks aren’t as smart gang” so I can’t speak for them, I can only speak for me. Although I will say I’ve heard some of those folks say that East Asians are smarter than whites on average so to say “PoC” may not be accurate.
But to your question of can hate be untaught? Absolutely. By experience. The more people of all races you experience the more racist books like this won’t mean as much to you.
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Omnipresent said
Who are the people that were mistreated and then mistreated others?
Were these people systematically mistreated, abused, subjugated etc… over 100’s of years? Are they still facing mistreatment now though in a less obvious way?
This is not a game mate, its not tit for tat. This is real $hit.
Right now the people that are doing it to us all are at the heads of government and big business. They pawn people against each other, while we have all become slaves. Have you ever heard of the act of 1871? That was the day that “The United States of America” became owned by a corporation based in DC called THE UNITED STATES. Notice it’s all capital letters? Well there is a reason for that , it’s because it is a corporation with “owned” lands and “subjects” Do you know who those subjects are? Well they are all of the other corporations that are basically strawmans of us. This video explains it better than I could. But if you live in the U.S. look on your passport or driver’s license or birth certificate or other I.D. it should be in all capital letters unless you know the right person or are very rich. That’s because you are also a corporation. Owned by the U.S. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP9ZKVwiJ-E) You are right it’s not a game. But we are all being played.
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@Dave
“Even if this is 80% true, which it is not…At least (at the very least) 20% is pure dog dodo… …you know what it becomes? 100% crapola. ”
Which of Welsing’s assertions can be proven untrue? And do you consider Sigmund Freud’s work “100% crapola” because many of his assertions have not been proven?
“You could say the same thing for David Duke but the stuff that isn’t is so racist and heinous that you must reject all of it.”
Apples and oranges. Is David Duke qualified to render a medical opinion or to diagnosis a mental disorder? Welsing is qualified. She’s a physician. David Duke is a former Grand Wizard of the KKK, a terrorist organisation.
“It’s all about how much sun exposure people got and their bodies method to adapt. ”
That’s an unproven theory too. The fact is skin, hair, etc. colour is related to internal melanin production. That’s why dark-skinned couples from the Sahara desert have produced albino offspring.
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@Dave
“Absolutely. By experience.”—Depends on said person. Ie white people with black friends or whitesomething married to blacks. Yet these same type individuals can be caught saying some of the most racist things.
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Correction whites*
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@resw77: So if it’s a “medical” problem or a “mental disorder”, is there a recommendation given for the therapy?
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@Sharina, that goes both ways. Some of the most racist men are black men that date white women.
@res anytime you try to define an entire group based on the actions of some, it can be disproven. If you look up Abagonds post on Melanin he even says that it isn’t proven that having more in your skin necessary equates to more in your brain.
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@mike4ty4
Abagond provided a summary of Welsing’s advice to black people in the article. I don’t know if Welsing provides any advice to white people, but has stated, “…since the practice of racism is the practice of white genetic survival, that the expectation that people who classify themselves as White can change this behavior is a high level expectation.”
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@Dave
“anytime you try to define an entire group based on the actions of some, it can be disproven.”
Not quite true and not an example of a Welsing assertion. And Freud did the same. Again, is Freud’s work “100% crapola” too?
“If you look up Abagonds post on Melanin he even says that it isn’t proven that having more in your skin necessary equates to more in your brain.”
Amazing. Who said that more melanin means “more in your brain”? Neither I nor Welsing (AFAICT) made that claim.
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Dave
@Omnipresent Well I’m not in the “blacks aren’t as smart gang” so I can’t speak for them, I can only speak for me. Although I will say I’ve heard some of those folks say that East Asians are smarter than whites on average so to say “PoC” may not be accurate.
I am confused, PoC are people that are non white – Are East Asian people classified as white in the U.S?
But to your question of can hate be untaught? Absolutely. By experience. The more people of all races you experience the more racist books like this won’t mean as much to you.
But everyone has personal hurdles to overcome first dont they? I remember most of your posts because you do a lot of what I think is ‘scaremongering’ on here based on your own personal biased and even though you might not call it hate, the very scary thoughts you have about PoC that you put on here stem from bad stereotypes dont they? Also, it is not the book that means anything to me, it is your posts that sometimes show things in a bad light from a white perspective which I dont think is representative. But I think you are deeply conflicted – on the one hand you know it is not right but you cant give in to your feelings.
I agree with you though that the more experiences you have with different people of different cultures/nationalities/backgrounds can influence how you develop as a person.
I think that this blog could do with an steady injection of a cross section of nationalities/cultures etc because how else do we learn.
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@Omni amen to that.
@Res.. umm.. yes she does. She writes that more melanin in the brain leads to a “sixth sense” that whites do not have. Just rediculous.
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@Dave
I thought by “more in the brain” you meant intelligence. Can you disprove the existence or lack of a “sixth sense”?
And I’ll assume you’ll continue to ignore my other questions.
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^”sixth sense” is defined by Welsing as “the additional sensory system being that of melanin pigmentation”
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@Res what on Freud. I’m not sure if he tried to define people according to their race. If he did then yes he is full of crapola too.
On the sixth sense thing. I mean to say there is no way to say that a certain group of people have more of it. Not whether it exists or not. I know it exists because I personally have experienced it in real time and in dreams. So when someone says “White people don’t have that” I can definitely disprove that.
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@Dave
” that goes both ways. Some of the most racist men are black men that date white women.”—I am not saying it doesn’t, but the truth of the matter is that learning not to be racist by experience is a bit false (please don’t use the they do it too argument here). If those said individuals are racist even though they have themselves experienced the other races then that means they can not learn. So what exactly is it learning from experience suppose to really do?
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@sharinalr, yes but there are many people who have experienced other races and found out that almost everything that they have been taught is false, and do change. Don’t just focus on the worst in people.
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@Dave
Freud made analyses on groups of people (women, men, children, “well-to-do” “Negro races of Africa,” etc.) based on limited analyses of individuals he studied. My goal is not to support any opinions of Welsing, just to establish the clear double standard that exists here.
“I mean to say there is no way to say that a certain group of people have more of it.”
No, there is a “way to say” that some people have more “melanin pigmentation” than others. So Welsing isn’t wrong for pointing this out. Her analysis of the effect of melanin pigmentation is what you’re disputing. Many physicians make opinions, and you are free to disagree with them. But saying dark-skinned people have more “melanin pigmentation” is as close to a fact as possible.
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@Dave
What exactly do you consider many and can you prove that many feel said way and have changed? Just because a person have engaged in other races and may decided to be tolerant does not equal said person is magically not racist. Some of the biggest racist on this very blog and others are people who grew up around other races. On occasion the racist actually traveled and still returned to be racist. So I ask again what exactly is learning from experience suppose to really do? Is it a successful tool or a successful masking tool?
“Don’t just focus on the worst in people.”—I focus on what people choose to display. If a person shows me they are racist then I will treat them as such. Don’t try to mind read me. If you don’t have a real response to my questions then say you don’t, but please don’t start making stuff up. Thank you in advance.
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George Ryder
@thwack
so basically when white people started sailing around the world they realized everyone else was brown so they started to plan to prevent a genetic annihilation of the white race?
—————————————————————————————
That came after the first white mans sister brought her black baby home.
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@sharina, I really can’t speak for other people. Only for myself. I have changed over the years for the better. Having hate in your heart is never good for the soul or even for your well being. I still have trouble with tribalism and “sticking up for my own” at times as many do. But I try to do it in a positive way, rather than pushing someone else down to make myself feel better. I’m saying that is done on both sides. You said some of the worst comments come from those white people who are “caught” in the act. To me that is looking for the worst. How about just trying to forgive someone. What ever happened to “sticks and stones”? We all have said bad things and I’m sure if you were honest with yourself you probably have as well. There needs to be some leeway if you are going to allow someone to grow.
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@Dave
The best thing you or anyone can do is speak for yourself or the people you know. I consider that a fair response, but when you take to say many then it really is a matter of what you would consider many.
“I still have trouble with tribalism and “sticking up for my own” at times as many do. “—I get that and I am not one to beat you down because of that, but it would be unfair on the part of both of us to dismiss the actions of people (whether some or many).
“I’m saying that is done on both sides. “—I am not disagreeing with you on what both sides do, but I have a bit of trouble when people say both sides because it is as if you are looking at it as only white and black and there are many sides.
“You said some of the worst comments come from those white people who are “caught” in the act.”—That is not what I said and you know good and well it was not. Quote what I said and I will ignore that you tried to put words in my mouth.
“How about just trying to forgive someone.”—I forgive people all the time, but when it becomes repeat then I think the forgiveness is worn out.
“We all have said bad things and I’m sure if you were honest with yourself you probably have as well.”—Oh I say bad things all the time, but usually after a person has said so many bad things to be that I have to retort. 🙂
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@ George Ryder
Dave is not a new commenter here by any standards, so you can go throw shade in the middle of busy traffic.
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@Dave
Now because my previous response gave into your deflection of my questions I am going to take the time to ask them again.
1. What exactly do you consider many and can you prove that many feel said way and have changed?
2. what exactly is learning from experience suppose to really do?
3. Is it a successful tool or a successful masking tool?
If you have no answer or you don’t want to answer I understand, but please no long deflective paragraphs.
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@George Ryder
“i don’t think a lack of melanin lends itself to inherent racist attitudes, these attitudes are constructed socially not biologically. ”
I tend to agree with you. I find it hard to believe that a child of any race is capable of racism without having been taught either by parents, TV/movies, school or otherwise. Also examining the history of people around the world, it seems to me that racism gradually developed over time.
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@Kwamla
I actually have been patiently awaiting your thoughts on The ISIS paper. I am curious on what you think of it and what portions of her theory you see as true? Is there things you feel need to be expanded upon etc.
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I find it ironic those obsessed with whites claim whites are obsessed with them. So many of her claims appear to be projection I may have to read this to better understand black supremacy. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
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resw77
^”sixth sense” is defined by Welsing as “the additional sensory system being that of melanin pigmentation”
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Sure, its a bit of an intuitive leap; but intuition is the seat of many discoveries/theories…
The evolution of a photo-sympathetic cell was a step up on the phylo genetic scale of ascension. Did the melanocyte came before the rod or cone in the eye?
Probably.
Thanks to the pigment chlorophyll, a plant can grow on a diet of carbon dioxide, water and PHOTONS; pretty amazing considering most life has to eat other life in order to live?
In addition, the most sensitive parts of your body have HIGHER concentrations of melanin; your nipples, genitalia, and more importantly, the BACK of your eye (this is why albinism is associated with vision problems) and you heard Shockley himself claim “blacks have better visual acuity.”
Finally, there is an association between neoteny and lower melanin production.
So Welsing calling it a “sixth sense” may be off in terms of kind, but not degree.
My suggestion to black people is not to depend on white people to validate their intuition.
Light is only a part of the electromagnetic spectrum.
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@thwack
So Do you agree with Dr. Welsing? Is there a part of her theory you don’t agree with or have another theory yourself?
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@George Ryder
“i believe 100 percent that racism is learned behavior.”
I’m only 100 percent about the fact that I don’t know much. But I do believe racism is learned.
“problem is it’s impossible to prove & the theory seems an awful lot like what white “scientists” did hundreds of years ago to justify slavery.”
I think the difference is that Cress starts on the premise of facts like genocide for the sake of white purity and non-white inferiority, domination of nonwhites all across the world based on white superiourity, apartheid in European colonies, etc. Now her reasons why are obviously her professional opinion and obviously subject to debate. But white “scientist” attempts to justified slavery, genocide, etc. were not premised on facts.
“if you can prove whites are genetically evil it’ll be pretty easy to justify killing them.”
Well, this is exactly what some white leaders across the world have tried to do for many years with respect to black people (and still do). Some have demonised blacks and others for hundreds of years to justify enslavement, genocide, etc. Even in religion.
I find it odd that when a black woman tries to explain the reasons for white supremacy and documented evil acts towards non-whites, people tend to victimise whites. It’s just amazing to me how Welsing’s book to explain white supremacy, a doctrine that has been written about extensively and practised in law all across the world, can be totally made out to be anti-white. I see the Isis Papers as a PROFESSIONAL attempt to explain white supremacy. If anything I think it provides a justification for documented racist behaviour, which evokes forgiveness, NOT an incitement of hate or violence.
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I found The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation here:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41065722?sid=21105575703013&uid=2&uid=3739616&uid=4&uid=3739256
You have to register. The book can be brought at amazon or ebay as well.
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I probably shouldn’t say about damn time ,but there you go ,
now we’ll have a long and interesting nonprofessional public debate as to the “merits” of this work.
Currently my research is at a very disappointing point – due this tentative research
http://www.arachnoid.com/trouble_with_psychology/index.html
as well as this
http://www.nature.com/news/replication-studies-bad-copy-1.10634
In addition I have my own questions some already posted others to follow.
Also I increasingly may not comment due to volume and as this looks like a multi hundred comment post – I’ll probably just read during later stages of the discussion.
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In reading The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation, it seems that Cress believes that whites want to have melanin. She sees this as being proven by the amount of money they spend in trying to add color to their skin.
She goes on to state that a defense maneuver utilized by whites is projection.
I was not sure if I was going to seriously read this in full, but I do find it worth taking a closer look.
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Why be shocked by the brutal and deceitful history of these people? Believe it is real and you could never know all the wicked details because there are many amongst these human monsters.
http://destee.com/index.php?threads/european-insanity.82446/
Hillary Clinton getting behind another racist white woman that’s White Supremacy.
http://www.oyotunji.org
http://www.gullahgeecheenation.com
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sharinalr
@thwack
So Do you agree with Dr. Welsing? Is there a part of her theory you don’t agree with or have another theory yourself?
—————————————————————————————————————————————————-
I was certain of the validity of her theory until I found out Neely Fuller disagreed; I was surprised to learn this since she credits him as the catalyst for her coming up with the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation. Fuller doesn’t really challenge her theory, he simply questions the mechanism, and posits his own.
So for me Im still stuck with the question of which mechanism drives the BEHAVIOR; hers, his, or some combination of both?
Early on I asked Dr. Welsing about a paradox her theory did not address; she answered my question with a question and gave a rather long explanation that ended with an opinion that did not resolve the paradox. It is my opinion that I accidentally stumbled on to Fuller’s disagreement with her over the mechanism of the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation.
Since that time, I think Ive found the data Dr. Welsing knew, and wanted to describe, but didn’t CLEARLY reference in her explanation of the paradox; but,
but,
I also think it strengthens Fullers mechanism.
I understand why she didn’t go into this data in front of the entire audience; its complex. I only became qualified to explain it this year.
To sum up, The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation is good enough. If you need to go further, you will go further organically; thats what drove me. Trust it. Thats how its works.
Her theory is simple; it fits hand in glove with the economy of nature. That alone is good enough for me.
Mbeti, if you have a dedicated Welsing/Fuller thread on your site I will come check it out. I too get frustrated with continuity issues related to volume.
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So based on what I read so far here is where I stand. I don’t believe whites want to have melanin. To some extent I believe they already do just not as much. Perhaps when she wrote this tanning was a big thing but I don’t see tanning as a big thing now. On top of that with the amount of products to be darker you would think more white people would be using these products than already are. So I have to disagree there.
On the other hand I agree with her assessment of whites projecting. She stated that whites will project the idea that non-whites hate them. I have seen this very thing on blog after blog. Comment section after comment section from white commenters. They tend to believe that any criticism from a non-white commenter, particularly a black commenter, means they hate them. It is even becoming more common for reading while white situations to occur where white readers are reading into things that were not said.
Jefe and I saw this where a commenter saw abagond asking a question as a stereotype on the The piccaninny stereotype thread.
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George…..“I find it odd that when a black woman tries to explain the reasons for white supremacy and documented evil acts towards non-whites, people tend to victimise whites. It’s just amazing to me how Welsing’s book to explain white supremacy, a doctrine that has been written about extensively and practised in law all across the world, can be totally made out to be anti-white. I see the Isis Papers as a PROFESSIONAL attempt to explain white supremacy. If anything I think it provides a justification for documented racist behaviour, which evokes forgiveness, NOT an incitement of hate or violence.”
I concur my friend….
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Big Momma…Black supremacy? Wow?
Lets look at what you are suggesting by using this term for Black people in America. You are suggesting that they have a majority of power, a majority of wealth, a majority of dominance, good education, safest neighborhoods, more jobs than others, proper treatment from law enforcement, fair treatment when shopping, ambiguity when applying for a job, most media coverage when their children go missing, are not profiled by law enforcement, get paid more than others for the same job and do less jail time for the same offenses….So tell me Big Momma are any of these claims true about Black people in America?
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Maybe if she changed it from “The Isis papers” to “The Isil” or maybe just “Is” Islamic State that would be better. Btw that quick wit comes from melanin directly in the brain .
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George……”racism is a learned behavior, it’s not genetic.”
Yes, I again concur but i also believe that a small portion of our behavior could have been altered slightly by such a chemical. Given our lack of social and genetic knowledge in the past and our fear.
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Sharinalr…. She sees this as being proven by the amount of money they spend in trying to add color to their skin.
I totally disagree with this argument, I do not believe whites tan their skin in an attempt to look or act more like people of color. I believe it is completely a cosmetic thing as most white people look better tan or a bit darker.
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thanks for doing this post, at least you are in gear now, abagond. i am actually reading the book now and i must say it is going to be a minute but there is some stuff i need to say.
off the cuff, right now? i would like to say, as i’m out here in ‘sunny LA’ and the wife is at home, she is enjoying the show ‘scandal’ on netflix. i personally have never had the inclination to push a button of any type to watch this thing. and what i know of it came from here, ‘you have to work twice as hard’ and so forth, the celebrated line, is what i was taught. and from her, an american black you know, came up in the hood and everything, it’s actually, as she says, a show about government corruption and coverups, who knew.
i think the title ‘isis papers’ covers a lot of ground, wow, this is interesting, again as they say another rambling disjointed post by v8driver, but eventually the orbit will stablize, and i think there is a lot to get out of this work.
-tc
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth
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@ Abagond
“The lack of melanin in Whites leads to fears of genetic annihilation and lack of self worth.”
Black man + White woman=Black child
White man + Black woman=Black child
One of the White man’s dangerous weapon is a loaded gun. Guns don’t kill but the bullets inside them do.
The Black man’s MOST dangerous weapon is his erect penis. When a Black man impregnates a White or non-Black woman the child will definitely be Black – the PC terms are “biracial”, “mixed race” and child of color”. The “one drop” rule (i.e., one drop of Black blood) is still in effect.
Types of Melanin:
Dermal melanin (skin melanin) is melanin concentrated in the dermis of the skin. The skin of Black people has more melanin than non-Black people. People of East Asian, East Indian and Native American descent have varying degrees of dermal melanin. Melanin-rich skin serves as a “window” and a “wall”, which means that its high concentration of melanin allows efficient sunlight to nourish the body with vitamin D and prevents excessive amounts of sunlight with UV-radiation absorption. Dermal melanin protects the skin from skin diseases such as xanthosis and cellulitis. Also dermal melanin protects the skin from skin cancer such as melanoma. The darker the skin, the more protect it provides.
http://www.deemako.com/2012/06/b1tch-why-bleach-skin-bleaching.html
Hyper-dermal melanin (high skin melanin) is high levels of skin melanin that is concentrated around the jointed areas (i.e., knees, elbows, knuckles, etc.). Cavities in the joints are sensitive areas and thus require high levels of dermal melanin. Hyper-dermal melanin protects the skin from invading pathogens that cause inflammatory joint diseases such as arthritis or rheumatoid arthritis. The darker the elbows or knees, the more protection it provides.
Neural melanin (brain melanin) is melanin located in the brain, noticeably in the midbrain. Interestingly, in the midbrain is a crescent-shaped cell mass called substantia nigra (Latin for “black substance”). The substantia nigra contains high levels of melanin. Substantia nigra not only plays an important role in reward, addiction, and movement, it also protects the brain from diseases such as Huntington and Parkinson’s disease, which impairs the motor neurons.
Skeletal melanin (bone melanin) is melanin that is concentrated in the interior of the bones, commonly known as the “spongy bone.” The spongy bone contains a honeycomb of struts and spaces. These struts and spaces are packed with melanin. Together they make the skeleton strong enough to support your body weight and absorb the bumps and jolts that happen when the body moves, but light enough for the body to move easily. Interestingly, skeletal melanin not only keeps the bones dense and strong, it also protects the bones from invading pathogens that cause inflammatory bone disease such as osteoporosis or osteopenia.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/08/17/philly-area-swim-club-pays-up-discrimination-act/
Note: Despite the acidic diet of some Black people the bone mineral density of Blacks are higher than any other ethnic groups. Credit skeletal melanin for Black people’s high BMD. Unfortunately, scientific racists use Black people’s high bone mineral density as a justification for not being good at swimming. High bone mineral density or “heavier bones” has NOTHING to do with being bad at swimming. Historically, Blacks were prohibited to use swimming pools with Whites. Keep in mind that Blacks are marginalized in “inner cities,” which are miles away from beaches. Many Black kids had to catch a bus to the coastal areas and if there was no transportation or bus fare then there was no day in the waters at the beach. In the last four decades Black people have overcome the overt racism at many recreational parks and beaches. From my own observation and knowledge many Blacks are excellent swimmers.
Genital melanin is hyper-dermal melanin that is concentrated in the private areas of males and females. Sex genitals are highly sensitive areas and thus require sufficient amounts of melanin. Despite being hidden from sunlight, the genital areas of Black people and other people of color (people of Asian, East Indian and Native American descent) are highly concentrated with melanin. Genital melanin protects the genitals from invading pathogens that cause genital herpes or vaginal thrush (yeast infection). The darker the genitals, the more protection it provides.
Ocular melanin (eye melanin) is melanin that is concentrated in the iris of the eye. The iris of Black people and other people of color is highly concentrated with melanin. Most Black people have melanin-rich eyes that look black but are dark-brown. Thank ocular melanin for eye acuity and reaction time (no need for black marking underneath the eyes for baseball or football). The high concentration of melanin in the iris not only allows efficient transmission of light signals to the brain, it also protects the eyes from cataracts (clouding of the lens of the eye) and ocular melanoma (melanoma of the eye/eye cancer).
http://www.cireport.ca/2012/01/unhappy-with-her-brown-eyes-beatriz-murillo-is-now-legally-blind-after-she-got-silicone-iris-implants-to-compliment-her-skin.html
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FINALLY!!!!!
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William the Conqueror
“I totally disagree with this argument.”—You can disagree all you like, but it is not my argument. If you read her book you will know that is exactly what she said or claimed. I gave a link to the book so that people who don’t know what she believes can learn.
What I believe or my argument can be found here:
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V8
What do you think of Dr. Welsing’s theories on white supremacy and the white mind?
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sharinalr
I found The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation here:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41065722?sid=21105575703013&uid=2&uid=3739616&uid=4&uid=3739256
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Thank you for finding and posting this information Sharina.
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@ Thwack
You are welcome.
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sharinalr
So based on what I read so far here is where I stand. I don’t believe whites want to have melanin. *snip* Perhaps when she wrote this tanning was a big thing but I don’t see tanning as a big thing now.
———————————————————————————————
I agree with Welsing on this issue. Have you considered that white people see your color as a proxy for something else of value?
I know its hard for you to imagine because the white supremacists carefully train ALL people to associate color with pathology; but if you study white people and white culture, you will see what Welsing means. When “Becky” comes back from Jamaica note her behavior and how the other white people react to her.
Ive had experiences with white people that confirm Welsing’s suggestion of “color envy”.
As a female you should be familiar with the phenomenon of an attack being a cloak for envy?
Women are notorious for this behavior.
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Dr. Frances Cress Welsing says:
“As explained in Chapter 1, racism [white supremacy] is the dominant social system in today’s world. Its fundamental dynamic is predicated upon the genetic recessive deficiency state of albinism, which is responsible for skin whiteness and thus the so-called ‘white race.’ This genetic recessive trait is dominated by the genetic capacity to produce any of the various degrees of skin – whether black, brown, red or yellow. In other words, it can be annihilated as a phenotypic condition. Control of this potential for genetic domination and annihilation throughout the world is absolutely essential if the condition of skin whiteness is to survive. ‘White’ survival is predicated upon aggressiveness and muscle mass in the form of technology directed against the ‘non-white’ melaninated men, as well as bring them into cooperative submission. This is especially important in the case of Black men because they have the greatest capacity to produce melanin and, in turn, the greatest genetic potential for the annihilation of skin albinism or skin whiteness.” (Isis Papers: The Keys To The Colors; Chapter 6, The Politics Behind Black Male Passivity, Effeminization, Bisexuality, and Homosexuality (August 1974), page 83)
This is true. I’ve noticed throughout the workforce many White men (in position corporate power) fear having a strong-minded Black man, especially if he shows strong masculinity in behavior and attitude, in position of corporate power. Most Black men (certainly, not all) who hold high positions in the corporate world are soft and submissive.
To add to my knowledge, White men fear men of Asian-descent in positions of power as well. White employers will hire Black women and Asian-American women before hiring their ethnic male counterparts. The collective White mindset believe that corporate Asian or Asian-American men would try to “steal” their top positions and corporate Black men would no longer be in an inferior position to his White male counterpart.
In the corporate world the Asian-American man is stereotypically called the “sneaky ninja”. A few years ago there was an attorney named Ted Cruz called the “Chinese sympathizer” who was “guilty” of helping the Chinese steal American jobs. Unfortunately, the same aggressiveness and “muscle mass” in the form of technology (and fearful behavior) directed against non-white men that Dr. Welsing talks about actually ended the life of Vincent Chin and other men of color (Black, Brown and Red men).
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@thwack
“…I was certain of the validity of her theory until I found out Neely Fuller disagreed; I was surprised to learn this since she credits him as the catalyst for her coming up with the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation. Fuller doesn’t really challenge her theory, he simply questions the mechanism, and posits his own…”
I would be interested in reading from your perspective what it is you believe Neely Fuller disagrees with about the Dr Cress Color Confrontation Theory.
It might help expand the boundaries of this topic as I see you’ve already offered some interesting insights here.
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thwack
I guess it is fair for me to say I have not paid close attention to white women in regards to tanning. Like some I viewed it as purely cosmetic. Just a thing.
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Michael Cooper
Very good point. Particularly the part on Asian men. I for one did not take notice of the fact that Asian women would be hired in positions of power over Asian men. On the other hand I did notice this with black women being hired in said position over black men.
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@ sharina
Thanks for your comment…
I have already commented extensively on the Melanin thread (and else where) and shared information about Dr Frances Cress there:
and here:
What Abagond has posted here is really (as pointed out by thwack) concerning her earlier work with little acknowledgement of her current status and development. Its a poor summary and doesn’t really do her justice. Some of which has already now been addressed by yours and others contributions.
What I would say is this:
African people and POC globally are a majority on this planet – FACT
White people as we know them as a group are not indigenous to this planet having arrived (via genetic mutation in skin and eye colour) about 10,000 years ago – FACT
If there were no African people or POC on this planet white people would not and could not have survived. The same thing CANNOT obviously be true for the indigenous African and POC already here on this planet. So it stands to reason white people having been fighting for their survival from day one!
They know (those in positions of power do) that their survival is directly tied to African and POC. They are experiencing a declining birth rate amongst their own populations. If they were simply to exist in isolation in few hundred years they would probably simply die out.
White supremacy as it is structured globally is simply an attempt to show they can subvert or overturn that situation. And to do this by employing means of externalised science and technology. The obvious FEAR being without this means, without some external source of equipment, the greater physical embodiment of African people and POC would naturally over run and annihilate them. This is by the same logic of their own (nonsensical) theories of Darwinism or natural selection. Its the development of externalised technology which (in their eyes) prevents this.
So on this basis much of what Dr Frances Cressling speaks to in her theories from an analysis based on the observed psychological behaviour of white people has much credibility in my eyes.
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@George Ryder
The reason I think Welsing’s work evokes a sentiment of forgiveness is because she puts forth the idea that racism is the manifestation of genetic survival.
Normally, IMO, people in our society or more forgiving of faults when they are done under extraordinary circumstances. For example, our justice system is generally more lenient on crimes committed out of passion, in defense, under mental illness, and for survival purposes.
@Sharina
“Perhaps when she wrote this tanning was a big thing but I don’t see tanning as a big thing now.”
Well the tanning industry is still worth $5 Billion. And that’s not inclusive of natural tanning. So when you consider that the AAD surveys suggest 35% of all American adults (59% of college students) have used tanning beds and add all those who have been sprayed and those who naturally tan outdoors, I think it’s a huge segment of the US population.
I think, however, that tanning is still a social construct (although that doesn’t mean that it’s not also unconscious behavior) because, just as tanning is popular today, in the 16th and 17th centuries, it was more fashionable to be pale and powdery.
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“So tell me Big Momma are any of these claims true about Black people in America?”
The two most successful demographics in America are Jews and Hindus. Both of whom earn more than twice the national average. Do they have a majority of the wealth? No. Because they’re still a small minority. They would have to be very successful indeed to have a majority of the wealth, etc. Even so, they’re very successful. Is this evidence of supremacy? No. Because the outcomes are in line with their performance. They’re intelligent and work very hard. It would actually demonstrate discrimination if they didn’t have higher rates of positive outcomes. Similarly, it’s possible for a group with higher rates of negative outcomes to actually be privileged if it’s not supported by their performance. Blacks do have that privilege but it’s not what I was referring to. I was referring to the ideology of black supremacy promoted by Welsing and echoed by some on this blog.
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Clarification:
If a group has high rates of negative outcome (and low rates of positive outcomes) but their performance indicates they should have an even higher rate of negative outcomes (and even lower rates of positive outcomes) they could be privileged.
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If you are a black person who has never walked into a tanning salon and checked it out; you should do so.
Seriously; you gotta see it.
There is usually a display full of adverts and brochures about tanning.
Get a bunch and read them. Indeed, they are trying to sell tans; but in our litigious culture, some white person (maybe the FDA) would “pull their card” if their health claims could be proven false.
PS– a good chunk of their business is from white people who only have a weeks vacation in the Caribbean and they want to arrive with a “base tan” so they can spend the entire time in the sun without fear of burning.
So no, tanning is not all about vanity.
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@thwack. Not all whites tan man… I don’t get the point of all this. Is it to say “they aren’t better than us” or is it “We’re better than them”? either way it’s more than tribalism. The way you are looking at it is racist. It would be if I said “Hey did you ever see those weird black people who get their hair straightened and pay thousands for stolen Indian hair, I’m serious go into one of their salon’s bro, you’ll laugh your as$ off” That is basically what you are doing. So it makes you just as bad as the people you are mad at.
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Kwamla
@thwack
I would be interested in reading from your perspective what it is you believe Neely Fuller disagrees with about the Dr Cress Color Confrontation Theory
———————————————————————————————–
You have a blog right?
Create a dedicated Francis Cress Welsing thread and I’ll come do it there.
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Calm down Dave.
You are attempting to create a false equivalency.
White people are NOT bombarded with messages suggesting pale skin is “bad”; indeed, to the contrary, the messages associating pale skin with beauty, wealth, power… are ubiquitous in white supremacist culture.
All Im suggesting is for black people go see for themselves how darker skin is sold to pale skinned people.
And then,
and then,
make the intuitive leap and apply that “marketing message” to their own dark skin.
*in my best Francis Cress Welsing voice*
“If I had a 5 or 6 year old black daughter I would tape one of those brochures to the mirror in her bathroom; so the first message she gets in the morning while brushing her teeth is a positive affirmation of her dark skin”
*from white people*
No offense Dave, but we need the help. Black people sense of self worth is in the toilet and we express it in our behavior; sometimes towards white people but mostly towards each other.
We need the help.
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Sharinalr….Yes sweetie I knew it wasn’t your argument, I was indifference with the argument the author made, but hell I am probably wrong. I haven’t even read any of these books and i am only using the limited amount of exerts and quotes on this thread to garnish my opinion. Just don’t want to be left out I guess…I am starting to warm up to this Melanin thing though, it is making more sense to me the more I think about it. White men and women do seem to be more insecure than Black men and women as a whole.
Again this is only one of many variables that may explain white culture and need for domination over the years.
I do know that a good portion of white youth have tried to assimilate to Black youth culture over the last 30 years and now it seems that the majority of our youth is more similar to each other than dissimilar. Which i believe is something really amazing, leave it up to our young people to teach us older guys how to behave and get along.
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Kwamla…..thank you for your well written post and explanation. I find the analysis and theory very credible as well after reading your comment.
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@Kwamla
Thank you for your comment. At the time I was not fully aware of Dr. Welsing, so it is nice to put a name with a face in regards to the theories you have been speaking of for a very long time on this blog.
@ Resw77
Then I greatly stand corrected. I had no idea that the tanning industry was making that much. I really thought white people rarely even did it.
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Thwack….I have to say your comments of late are very enjoyable, intelligent and interesting and i look forward to reading more of your thoughts and opinions.
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“No offense Dave, but we need the help. Black people sense of self worth is in the toilet and we express it in our behavior; sometimes towards white people but mostly towards each other.”
Excuse my intrusion. Blacks don’t suffer lack of self worth. Blacks have the highest self-esteem of any group. That’s a problem because low self-esteem motivates people to improve. There’s no motive to improve when you already think you’re the best. I believe this is tied to blaming others for ones problems. If someone can blame their problems on someone else then 1) they will have unreasonably high self esteem because they don’t see any fault with themselves 2) they won’t try to improve themselves and 3) they will hate the people they scapegoat.
https://cei.org/blog/teaching-self-esteem-undermines-students-academic-achievement
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I remember when Da jokah argued the self-esteem of blacks being high.
@ Kiwi
Perhaps you can link that thread when you come across it.
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@William the Conqueror
“Yes sweetie I knew it wasn’t your argument”—Thanks for clarifying. I am reading her book and learning, but I will share a bit of what I find.
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Big Momma….you have ZERO experience as a Black person and ZERO experience as being the most oppressed group of people for the longest time in history. Your claims about Blacks are 100% baseless. If it weren’t for the fight and struggle of Black people over the last 400 years they would have been eradicated by the evil portion of whites and the evil states that condoned the evil laws and systematic oppression, torture and brutality against Blacks. Only their ability to IMPROVE their situation, fight and struggle for survival did they actually survive.
If it weren’t for Black women of today and yesterday raising multiple children without fathers and with very little money and instilling respect, sometimes religion, discipline and other valuable parental influence the amount of Black men and women falling between the cracks and turning to crime would be ten times what it is now. You want to talk about character, strength and a will to survive and protect your children, white mothers as a whole do not know struggle like people of color do. Black and Hispanic single mothers in America do so much with so little a midst gang members, violence and poverty that most white mothers could not fathom in a thousand years. You want to talk about improving your situation? No single group of women and people have improved their situation greater than Blacks.
Just a mere 50 years ago laws within the United States FORBID Blacks to sit with whites, Blacks to work sided by side with whites, Blacks to marry whites, eat with whites, go to school in white school rooms with all the proper materials, be treated in white hospitals. Real estate companies actually advertised to whites stating that neighborhoods were FREE OF BLACKS and only whites buy homes in these areas. Yes and just 50 years later the MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE WORLD IS A BLACK MAN. I think that not only proves that Blacks not only improve their situation fast, even when many EVIL white people did and do everything possible to keep them from advancement, they do it much quicker and better than whites. White civilization only advances quickly when they commit human atrocities across the globe. That is not improving ones situation, that is stealing someone elses and killing the natives so the good white people don’t figure out the truth about the entire white manifest destiny FACADE!….It is all BULLSHIT
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I have to admit, in my 20’s I was a tanner for a short time. I bought a monthly membership and did it for about 3 months but got sick of it very fast. Something about sitting under a light bulb in a cubicle for $30 every half an hour drove me nuts, besides I got much better results playing ball everyday with my shirt off.
Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder but for some reason when younger white people and some older white people get some color they appear to look healthier, younger. I believe it is a vanity thing and possibly on an unconscious level people are trying to look for like other people, I don’t know about this argument but I think some of the other arguments have clout.
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@Thwack
“So no, tanning is not all about vanity.”
How can you know, without a survey, if the average tanner is vain? And many people, probably more than those who use beds, tan in the sun, risking sun burn and melanoma. I have to admit that I personally tan for vain reasons, although I’ve never paid money to do it (unless you count sun tanning oil).
“White people are NOT bombarded with messages suggesting pale skin is ‘bad’; indeed, to the contrary, the messages associating pale skin with beauty, wealth, power… ”
You hit the nail on the head. It’s a big difference. Many African Americans are actually taught at a very young age to hate their hair, even if the people teaching them don’t realise what their doing.
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I find the comments by commentor dave ,to be typical of most of the responses I’ve read
of many white people generally and white males specifically in regards to Dr.welsings
work – typical ad hominem attacks
ad hominem –
1.appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than the intellect
2.marked by or being an attack on an opponents character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.
however there is another equal and opposite response made by a segment of the african american community
and dispora which while flattering is equally empty
the comment by commentor Kushite Prince,
An amazing book! One of the first books I read that “awaken” me. I suggest all black read this book. It will give you a better understanding of the sickness known as white supremacy. Welsing wrote a masterpiece! She is an elder I really respect. Much respect to that beautiful queen.
a sort of ad hominem praise
btw Kushite Prince which form of poltical organization do you think is the most valid ?
decomcracy or feudalism/dictatoship ?
elected officails or nobles kings and queens?
equality of all under the law regardless of station or hereditary rulers considered inherently superior to the majority of the population they rule?
(yeah I know america and other european societies have yet to have the former in anything but name only but in theory it seems fairer than the later)
that you and many others find her one book “amazing” and I’m glad it “awaken” you,
(ignorance is synonymous with sleep or unconsciousness ,not lack of education or knowledge?)
and you think its a masterpiece! (still not a good enough reason to write only one book which is a collection of essays or “papers”)
but you comment is just like the majority of the “positive” as well as “negative” comments I’ve read at amazom customer reviews over the years,amog other places.
btw the way I think its a “great” work and I find Dr.welsing to be a very nice articulate intelligent and insightful person,
however that tells you no more than that I like her and her book ,it tells you little to nothing of why?, what does she talk about? ,what ideas or concepts does she bring up or
address?
however the problem goes ever deeper
for several years Dr.welsing and her work has been has come up as a topic for discussion on this blog and in the course of those discussions I was informed of this “paper” – Melanin,
Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience by BERNARD R. ORTIZ DE MONTELLANO
Anthropology Department, Wayne State University, Detroit,Michigan 1993
which addresses some of the issues raised in dr.welsings work
however (and I’m currently rereading it to see if I’m in error)
as far as I could ascertain initially none of Dr.welsings assertions or observations concerning racism and the historical sociological or psychological aspects of this phenomena where addressed.
Its like saying hey you made some technical and grammatical errors in your police complaint claiming widespread and extensive violations of the law by both citizens and those sworn and assigned to protect and serve but the only thing that is important is technical details and grammar, I have nothing to say about widespread and extensive violations of the law by both
citizens and law enforcement; really?
and according to all the positive ad hominem praises she wrote a masterpiece that awakened you and helped you better understand racism.
why and how exactly? care to share details?
did it give you a better understanding of white peoples racism?
what about black peoples racism or alleged “extreme long term passivity” in reaction to racism – as stated someswhere in her book.
btw
is that the only type of conflict that exist or only the most important?
why?
As for me it definitely helped increase my understanding but definitely did not
solves all my problems with or answer all my questions about racism in particular or life in general.
Also I find it a bit restrictive that Dr.welsing ,neely fuller and others are one trick ponies ,are monotheistic in that they only speak on this one subject as if racism is the only thing there is.
(yeah might be a little bit ad hominem but I follow with reasoned assertions and am open to extensive questioning as well)
And again why over all these years only one book? what about a response to your critiques?
I definitely would like to see the peer review response to her work.
anyway we are finally going to have a through discussion of this work,abate a informal and nonprofessional one, and while I fully expect many more positive and negative ad hominem responses, its a small price to pay for the many informative and insightful responses I fully
expect to read in regards to this work as well as to my statements and questions about this work in the coming months and years.
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William
I deal in evidence and logic not emotional vomit.
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@thwack, You are missing the point. I would think it was racist if a white person said that, and actually went to a black beauty salon to “study” someone. I would think that is wrong. I’m saying to give someone advice for a black person to go into a tanning salon and embarrass themselves like that at the very least isn’t the most sound advice. And depending on which area of the country you are in I would be surprised if more than 10% of white people “tan”. I don’t think that is enough people to form any conclusion.
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So in closing, at least for me, this book is racist. I hope you all enjoy reading it, but from the outline Abagond gave, I’ll pass. Some on this post have said that white people need black people to survive in this country or any for that matter. I think the truth is we need each other. God bless.
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Dave
I’m saying to give someone advice for a black person to go into a tanning salon and embarrass themselves like that at the very least isn’t the most sound advice.
———————————————————————————–
Why should a black person be embarrassed to learn about their environment?
Ive wandered through Victoria”s Secret; Ive bought tampons and dildos before…
But I can’t wander thru a tanning salon?
WTF?
Not only am I suggesting black people go look inside a tanning salon; but while you are there, ask for a job application too.
Would you buy a bicycle from a man with no legs?
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Big Momma…..”If someone can blame their problems on someone else then 1) they will have unreasonably high self esteem because they don’t see any fault with themselves 2) they won’t try to improve themselves and 3) they will hate the people they scapegoat.”
You call this evidence? This is conjecture my friend, this is only opinion and theory. You cannot prove any of these as each as every person is different from the next. These arguments would NEVER hold up in any developed and honest court of law, which by the way in this country Black people were not allowed to testify in unless it was in defense of a white man for years!
This is EVIDENCE Ma’am….
1. Nurses: No person or corporation shall require any white female nurse to nurse in wards or rooms in hospitals, either public or private, in which negro men are placed. Alabama.
2. Buses: All passenger stations in this state operated by any motor transportation company shall have separate waiting rooms or space and separate ticket windows for the white and colored races. Alabama.
3. Intermarriage: The marriage of a person of Caucasian blood with a Negro, Mongolian, Malay, or Hindu shall be null and void. Arizona.
4. Education: The schools for white children and the schools for negro children shall be conducted separately. Florida
5.There shall be separate buildings, not nearer than one fourth mile to each other, one for white boys and one for negro boys. White boys and negro boys shall not, in any manner, be associated together or worked together. Florida
6. Barbers: No colored barber shall serve as a barber [to] white women or girls. Georgia
7. Restaurants: All persons licensed to conduct a restaurant, shall serve either white people exclusively or colored people exclusively and shall not sell to the two races within the same room or serve the two races anywhere under the same license. Georgia………………these laws go on and on through our history.
That is evidence Big Momma, not conjecture, not theory but hard cold evidence that NOT ONE single group of people, less Native Americans, have climbed out of the rubble of HATE, TORTURE, ENSLAVEMENT, OPPRESSION and SYSTEMATIC ATTEMPT AT GENOCIDE than the African American men and women of this here United States….
But you are right about one thing, my comments are 100% emotional vomit. It is the arrogance and ignorance of the willful ignorant white man that has earned every ounce of my VOMIT!
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Thwack………….”Would you buy a bicycle from a man with no legs?”
LOL…
I think Thwack has a great idea. He is suggesting that one group of people seek out and learn more about the culture and habits of another group of people, that is an outstanding suggestion. Most white people lack this cultural knowledge of Black people and get all of their knowledge through FOX NEWS and THE MTV. This lack of interconnection is what leads to the FEAR of the unknown and leaves only the media as peoples guide into the lives of others…and we all know that the media only cares about creating sensationalism, not actualism (my new word for the day)….
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Dave…. “Some on this post have said that white people need black people to survive in this country or any for that matter. I think the truth is we need each other. God bless.”
I agree Dave, but lets not forget whether you believe it or not there are subversive forces out there. Conversations like this give us power and connections that bring us together, just like here on this thread….So unbeknownst to the author of these books or book, her works brought a very diverse group of people from all over the world or country together to talk about race relations, thats a good thing…We will never fix racism if we just keep pretending that it’s not there, it has to be brought out into the light.
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Before I forget, I want to alert black people who read The Isis Papers and think Dr. Welsing’s analysis/conclusions are “crazy”; its all laid bare in the porn industry.
Pornography is a huge industry, and its market driven. Pre internet porn is even more interesting because the target demographic was exclusively white men; because thats where the money was.
In some ways it still is; but the internet destroyed the cartel of white men who used to be able to fix prices by conspiring to limit the types of sexual behavior a person could view; and thereby inflate the value of of those behaviors.
They kept the value of white women “inflated” by limiting what you could see them do.
The internet broke this “porn cartel.”
What you see now is truly market driven; in many cases, humans have been replaced with algorithms that function as pure price discovery mechanisms.
So before you dismiss Dr. Welsing as “crazy” just remember there is a market driven data set “out there” that validates her perspective.
Ive seen it.
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That is precisely what I was wondering. Is it any more embarrassing than being the only black person in the room at an all white function?
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@William the Conqueror
Unless you are cracking a joke, Big Momma is a man aka da jokah aka Churchs aka duckduckgoofs. Self proclaimed troll. He gets banned and returns with a new name.
“we all know that the media only cares about creating sensationalism, not actualism (my new word for the day)”—I agree. It amazes me when I hear people say “the news use to be about truth”. I have to wonder if the news ever was about truth. I doubt it. At any rate the media creates fear.
@ Dave
“Some on this post have said that white people need black people to survive in this country or any for that matter. I think the truth is we need each other.”—-Unless some equals 1 lets us not even go there.
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sharinalr
That is precisely what I was wondering. Is it any more embarrassing than being the only black person in the room at an all white function?
——————————————————————————————–
Huh?
Are you embarrassed to be the only black person in the room at an all white function?
Why?
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Sharinalr…..”Unless you are cracking a joke, Big Momma is a man”
Yes I know, I thought I would give him a little bit of his own medicine with his play on words….maybe I should change my name to “Wuss up Dude and Dudets”, or something white and corny like that.
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@William “Just when I thought I was out, they drag me back in”
Not all white people get their info about black people from “the mtv” Are you 10?
Many people actually live and work together. Maybe you are speaking for yourself. Turn off the t.v. and go out and live, but don’t go into a black beauty salon like a scientist doing an experiment. You might get your as$ punted.
Let someone who actually has some experience (I’m a business owner, in the service industry and I work for and with black owners and managers all the time, and every race for that matter.) give the advice. You know what i’ve found out cleaning for many races of clients?
#1 they all have the same color of money.
#2 Black people are just like anyone else to work for and in many cases can be even more cool.
#3 that doesn’t automatically make me come to any definitive conclusion.
#4 Stop being a douche
#5 I go in any neighborhood and have 0 fear. I have a carpet cleaning machine that runs mounted to my van. That means you need to leave at least the side door open to run the hoses from the machine. Not to mention it’s gas powered and needs to be ventilated. I have no fear of leaving the truck open no matter where i am. THat comes from experience. But I definitely wouldn’t force my way into a beauty salon and judge anyone.
You’re wrong. Don’t do it! THere is a certain level of respect that just comes with having good manners. Damn!
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A mean wife.
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Dave…where are you getting this anger, first of all I didn’t say every white person. Second of all Dave working with Black people does not give you insight into Black culture. People at work are working not living and people at work do not act like they do when they are at home, so don’t come on here like every other white person and say, “I know Black people, I have several that work for me”. That just proves my point even further when you say something like that.
Dave I was complimenting you and my other post were not concerning you and if I am you will know it. I also never said that I had more experience than any other person regarding white or Black culture, I simply made an observation and because I too work in over 5 different cities every week, in every income bracket for hours at a time I can tell you with certainty that most white people get there information from somewhere else than personal experiences. WORK DOES NOT COUNT!
However Dave my life experiences with white and Black cultures comes mostly from my family. I was raised in a biracial family and my cousins are biracial. I feel that I am able to see things from the middle because of my experiences. My Faith, my family and my experiences are what bring me to such conclusions in life. I am not always right but most of the things we talk about are relative and don’t have a right or wrong answer. I also may change my mind from time to time as I gain more experience or more insight but I can tell you with certainty from living in a Black family and a white family and living in a diverse world that most white people don’t know JACK about Black people or have a very skewed idea based on the mtv and the FOX NEWS. One more time Dave, work does not count.
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Dr. Frances Cress Welsing says:
“In my practice, a Black mother informed me that her six-year-old son, attending a predominantly White elementary school, reported to her that one of his White male classmates had told him that he [the Black child] had a large penis. The mother stated that she asked her son what his response was. Her son told the White boy that all Black boys had large penises.”
Dr. Welsing continued by saying:
“It is obvious that in the above situation, in a school with a majority of White children, at shower or bathroom time, the White male child would have had ample opportunity to see the size of White penises. He would have had the same opportunity at home. His need to comment on the size of the Black child’s penis indicates that this Black penis must have stood out by all of his other comparisons, even at this tender age. It is also certainly clear that the Black male child had no concern or fears about the adequacy of the Black male’s penis.” (‘The Isis Paper: The Keys To The Colors’; Chapter 7, ‘What Freud Was Really Talking About…The Concept of “Penis Envy”‘ (February 1975), page 97).
Again, this is true. Many White boys have taken the fascination of the Black male’s penis into adulthood.
Many White male writers and directors who are in the pornography industry (as well as the movie industry) have this same fascination and concept of the Black male’s penis. It’s like everything in society with Whites, it’s Whites generalizing the non-White races. If one Black man is a “thug” then all of them are “thugs” no matter if he has a Stanford education or not – he’s a “Black thug”. Of course, White people’s same “rule” of generalization applies to Blacks in the porn industry, too. The Black penis fetishist (White women and men) will take a hand full of well-endowed Black male porn stars, which they are limited to (just a hand full of well-endowed Black male porn stars) and say “all Black men are packing.”
https://eradica.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/reader-mail-levels-of-intertainment/
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Dr. Frances Cress Welsing is on POINT with her ideology.
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Dave ……..”#5 I go in any neighborhood and have 0 fear. I have a carpet cleaning machine that runs mounted to my van. That means you need to leave at least the side door open to run the hoses from the machine. Not to mention it’s gas powered and needs to be ventilated. I have no fear of leaving the truck open no matter where i am. THat comes from experience. But I definitely wouldn’t force my way into a beauty salon and judge anyone.”
This was my actual comment…..”This lack of interconnection is what leads to the FEAR of the unknown and leaves only the media as peoples guide into the lives of others…”
Dave this is a blatant stereotype that again PROVES my point. My comment was talking about the fear of the unknown between two cultures of people and yet your mind automatically thinks about being afraid to go into Black neighborhoods because of some FEAR of crime or being a victim. Your mind is working like so many other white people when discussing these subjects.
Before you go off on a rant saying that I am just like you I will admit that my younger mind did lead me this way many times but only through deep thought and realization did I discover that this is a learned behavior that is not based on facts but on ignorance and prejudice. More importantly it was disrespectful and arrogant of me to think this way, so I learned myself not do it just like I learned myself to do it, if that makes sense.
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@thwack
I used to be and it was because I felt I did not live up to their expectations. I always wondered what they thought of me.
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@William the Conqueror
Then in that case carry on. I think it is fitting considering the names he chooses.
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@sharina
They probably thought you were “delicious”
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Dave and his straw man arguments.
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I’ll go further and suggest much of the fame and fortune of Quentin Tarentino is largely the result of his will and ability to graphically and artistically portray several aspects of the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation.
Here are two examples:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3yon2GyoiM)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlQhDN1Onho)
So while Dr. Welsing is called “crazy”; Quentin Tarantino is took that “crazy” and made bank, BIG bank.
Indeed, Tarantino is not the only one getting paid. Modern mass communication theory is all about using words, symbols and images to tap into the collective sub conscious of populations and use it to subtly manipulate their behavior.
Corporations and governments pay big money for the specific techniques and tactics that subconsciously excite the fear or reward centers of the subconscious mind; even while everybody agrees Francis Cress Welsing is “crazy.”
*Be advised*
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William
Dave this is a blatant stereotype that again PROVES my point. My comment was talking about the fear of the unknown between two cultures of people and yet your mind automatically thinks about being afraid to go into Black neighborhoods because of some FEAR of crime or being a victim. Your mind is working like so many other white people when discussing these subjects.
Yeah, I have called Dave out on his own fear and scaremongering. Who knows, perhaps his fear is valid. Maybe away from here he is a mean m0fo and this invites trouble, you just dont know do you. He really dont seem to know what to think. He wants to be impartial because he knows not to be is ridiculous and wrong but he is too conflicted.
Everytime a post on here points to something that white people have done wrong, dave seems to jump in, like he is taking personal responsibility for how whites are represented. Dont know why he feels like that, if you dont do anything wrong you’ve got nothin to be worried about. I dont take any of the posts personally
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@Omnipresent
You hit the nail on the head.
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@ William, you need to actually read man. I said I work for them. In their house! I think I hit the nerve on the head. I know people. Period.
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Look this may have gotten a little out of hand. My ultimate point is that if you want to get to know other cultures, don’t do it from such a judgemental position. , and be respectful about it. I personally don’t think it’s cool to trick someone and act like you are going to get a job at a tanning salon. I’m giving that advice for your benefit not my own or some group of white people in general. If you don’t want to heed that advice, and do what thwack and william suggest, this is a free country and do what you want, but I just said it was wrong.
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Dave
I said I work for them. In their house! I think I hit the nerve on the head. I know people. Period.
but do you socialise with these people? Most people behave differently to a contractor than they would if that person were also their friend?
I am not criticising who you mix with, just saying that knowing people in different contexts gives a different perspective of them
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@Dave
A person does not have to act like they are getting a job or doing much of anything to walk into a tanning salon and ask questions etc. You walk in you inquire and you walk out. Same as if you are walking into a car dealership or into an organic market. Same as if a person is trying to inquire about your company. If you use organic environment free chemicals etc. You can inquire about service or what that company does. It is not a trick or some side joke to do that.
As to getting to know cultures, try not assuming what people don’t likely already do in their life. The theme of your post have been “well if you do xyz”. In that case the joke is on you when people already do xyz.
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@Sharina.. good luck with that. Make sure you bring your magnifying glass when you go into the men’s restroom as well. You’ll need it for those white men.
@Omni, yes I do. I have a sole proprietor business and do most of the work myself, so I’m constantly handing out cards to friends and relatives. Some are friends of friends etc. I do get direct calls as well from people close by.
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also @Sharina I realize that most black people are respectful, and already do xyz to get to know all types of people. They might even do abc and 123. 😉
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Dave…..READ MAN!
“Not only am I suggesting black people go look inside a tanning salon; but while you are there, ask for a job application too.”
So tell me where Thwack suggest you trick people by getting a job at a Tanning salon?
Would you buy a bicycle from a man with no legs?
The end of the statement was off the cuff but his premise was to go into a tanning salon and check it out, go mingle and the end of the statement was in parody as Black people are born TAN and so they would make better Tanning salon employees….It was a joke dude! How you got from this to getting employment and going under cover I will never know.
Dave even though we have been in a bit of a tussle you sound like a good person and I don’t want you to think that my previous comments were geared towards you. I am merely adding to the conversation, sometimes using your comments to bounce off of but in no way did i ever mean my generalizing of white people meant for you. Just so you know….
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@Dave
Apparently you don’t realize that because for each of the many posts you have littered this thread with you have assumed something.
For example “My ultimate point is that if you want to get to know other cultures, don’t do it from such a judgemental position.”—Whoever this is directed at you are assuming said person is making remarks from a judgmental positions and that they should get to know other cultures.
My response was “As to getting to know cultures, try not assuming what people don’t likely already do in their life.” Where in this comment did black people come in? You basically told on yourself. You seem to say anything that sounds good to the masses. smh
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@ Thwack
Is Dave employing the tactic of scaring black people into not doing research? Is this common with white men?
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@William the Conqueror
” but in no way did i ever mean my generalizing of white people meant for you. Just so you know….”—Have you ever heard of the saying “throw it out there and a hit dog will holler” ?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hit%20dog
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It’s in the book Sharina. lol.
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Sharinalr…..—Have you ever heard of the saying “throw it out there and a hit dog will holler” ?
Very good, I get it and I like it….
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Oh I know what you want…. You win Sharina. There you go .
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You are worse than playing checkers with my 7 year old son.
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@Dave
If you have not read the book then it is fair to say you have no clue what is in it? At any rate it is quite telling how such a simple suggestion is making you upset. *raises eyebrow*
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The only way to win is not to play. That’s why some of these honest discussions don’t happen on both sides .. I’m out.
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It is not about winning Dave. It is about the fact that you are so intellectually dishonest that you can’t even answer simple questions without throwing a fit.
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I think a lot of what I have read about Cress is hard for people on both ends of the spectrum to swallow, but I don’t think you can fight a system of white supremacy without having a clue about how it works or functions.
I think that is the problem the powers that be have with having people become more “awake” or “aware”. They begin to study the system. They begin to question the system and that goes against status quo.
Now i could be missing some key elements here, but I do believe that DR. Welsings book is worth the read. Even if it is for nothing more than gaining an understanding of where she is coming from.
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@William the Conqueror
Thanks. It is one of my favorite quotes. It is amazing how much it applies around here at times.
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Sharinalr…..Can you imagine how flipping mad and crazy white people, mostly conservatives, would be if the shoe was on the other foot?
Here we have ALL the atrocities committed against Black people for hundreds of years, culminating into subversive oppression and police brutality from the white establishment and white culture and not one substantial offense by Blacks committed against whites. Yet many white people are extremely mad, some hating Black people….FOR WHAT?
Are you seriously telling me that these white people hate, dislike or are upset at Black people because they are standing up for themselves and speaking out against their oppressors? This is what defines their hatred? Not enslavement, not rape or murder, burning of churches, hanging innocent boys and men, inhuman humiliating laws, discrimination, brutality, inequality or any REAL abusive treatment but the mere fact that the people they tortured for so long have the audacity to get back up and brush themselves off, that’s what pisses these white people off the most?….They just won’t give up and do what we want them to.
This behavior is exactly why, with limited knowledge, my first impressions are that this Melanin theory might hit the nail right on the head…DAVE’S HEAD…LOL!
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la la la la i’m not listening my immediate argument with the yssis papers is it does not account for indigenous peoples and so forth such as pacific islanders and aleut etc eg ‘straight hair’ and mendel my eyes are glazin over… i remember that all from ap bio but like… how many genes are there and 5000 samples and regressive insertaion to dna no… bbl
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“You call this evidence? This is conjecture my friend, this is only opinion and theory.”
The evidence was the article I cited. The rest was logic.
“This is EVIDENCE Ma’am….”
It’s evidence of “blaming others for ones problems” like I mentioned in my earlier comment. It was before you were born and still blaming failures on it. Good luck with that.
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Big Momma………..So you say that something as HUGE as the brutality of one human being to another that occurred 50 years ago shouldn’t influence people of today, is that your argument?
Let me point out an example or two where sometimes a SINGLE EVENT of 2000 years ago still influences people of today, so much that they get on their knees every night, they meet in buildings every week, they give 10% of their wealth………The Crucifixion of Christ.
Let me point out what war does to soldiers after they return. Why don’t you tell a war veteran from WWll or Vietnam that he should get over his experiences of over 60 or 70 years ago? Or that his experiences shouldn’t affect his family, his sons or his daughters. Well they do and it transfers down from generation to generation, however in the case of Black people much of the causes are still occurring this very day. This is an on going experience as all the numbers and testimony PROVES. You cannot tell a women how hard or easy birth control was if you are a man, that would be just plain arrogant and ignorant. Well a large white woman cannot tell Black people how and when they should get over BRUTALITY…..Unless of course you are arrogant and ignorant, ARE YOU?
So why don’t you tell me how the systematic oppression and destruction of one human being to another doesn’t cause long term post traumatic stress syndrome that resonates from one generation to the next, just like the racism your parents or your white culture taught you. Why don’t you make that same argument for the 22 soldiers who are committing suicide everyday in this country who are suffering from the SAME disorder that MURDER, ENSLAVEMENT, OPPRESSION, RAPE, TORTURE, POLICE BRUTALITY, LYNCHINGS, DISCRIMINATION, GANG VIOLENCE, POVERTY, ETC and all that other shit causes!
Here are some examples of what Black people of today face due to 400 years of brutality and torture, which includes the killing of black men by law enforcement and the systematic imprisonment of Black men by white culture of TODAY, RIGHT NOW, THE PRESENT, THIS MINUTE, HERE AND NOW…get the picture….
This is an exert from a book I am going to QUOTE for little ole you…..
“The young man was shot 41 times while reaching for his wallet”…“the 13-year-old was shot dead in mid-afternoon when police mistook his toy gun for a pistol”… “the unarmed young man, shot by police 50 times, died on the morning of his wedding day”… “the young woman, unconscious from having suffered a seizure, was shot 12 times by police standing around her locked car”… “the victim, arrested for disorderly conduct, was tortured and raped with a stick in the back of the station-house by the arresting officers.”
The book is….”The Oppression of Black People, The Crimes of This System and the Revolution We Need”.
https://moorbey.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/the-oppression-of-black-people-the-crimes-of-this-system-and-the-revolution-we-need-2/
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sharinalr
@ Thwack
Is Dave employing the tactic of scaring black people into not doing research? Is this common with white men?
———————————————————————————————–
Im not sure what Dave is attempting to do; but according to counter racism code, white people only enter into racial discussions with black people for one of two reasons:
1. To find out how much you know.
2. To confuse you.
Reason #2 usually takes the form of a white person attempting to convince you THEY are not a racist.
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“the killing of black men by law enforcement and the systematic imprisonment of Black men by white culture of ”
Most homicides are committed by blacks. Yet most people shot by police are white. It sounds like whites are the ones getting a raw deal.
“So you say that something as HUGE as the brutality of one human being to another that occurred 50 years ago shouldn’t influence people of today, is that your argument?”
Not if it didn’t happen to them.
“Why don’t you tell a war veteran from WWll or Vietnam that he should get over his experiences of over 60 or 70 years ago? ”
Because it happened to them.
“a SINGLE EVENT of 2000 years ago still influences people of today, so much that they get on their knees every night, they meet in buildings every week, they give 10% of their wealth………The Crucifixion of Christ.”
Is being a victim your religion?
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Destructure….First of all your rebuttal is complete and utterly FALSE and only conjecture and opinion. If you want the facts on crime I will point to you the FBI data base at this location……http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
Here it shows that 84% of white people are killed by white people and 90% of Black people are killed by Black people. It shows that whites RAPE more people than Blacks at a rate of 2 to 1, especially when it comes to child molestation. Now unless you are ready to admit that white people are just more attracted to children than are Black men i would back track a bit on your correlation concept. Black people have a slight more propensity for crime only due to one reason OPPRESSION and POVERTY. The same numbers hold true for poor whites.
“So you say that something as HUGE as the brutality of one human being to another that occurred 50 years ago shouldn’t influence people of today, is that your argument?”
So every single Christian has been crucified?
“Why don’t you tell a war veteran from WWll or Vietnam that he should get over his experiences of over 60 or 70 years ago? ”
Yes but not 60 years later and not 2 weeks later when they get home and commit suicide, it’s all over at that point. Besides 100% of Black fathers, mothers and some younger generation lived through the 60’s and 70’s and are alive right now. Besides Blacks are abused so much today that the WORLDS MOST RENOWNED WATCH GROUP HAS PLACED THE UNITED STATES ON THE BRUTALITY LIST ALL BECAUSE OF IT”S TREATMENT OF BLACKS.
.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/30/un-police-brutality-stand-your-ground_n_5740734.html
“a SINGLE EVENT of 2000 years ago still influences people of today, so much that they get on their knees every night, they meet in buildings every week, they give 10% of their wealth………The Crucifixion of Christ.”
I guess it is for 6.9 billion Christians.
You really should do your homework if you are going to come onto this BLOG
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Destructure……..Here are some more numbers that are ACTUAL numbers and not just rhetoric from a biased person.
1. African-Americans comprise 13% of the U.S. population and 14% of the monthly drug users, but 37% of the people arrested for drug-related offenses in America.
2. Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of the white people stopped. Host a poetry slam to educate others on racism and reduce prejudice in your community. Sign up for Slam Racism.
3. After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.
4. In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.
5. In 2009 African-Americans are 21% more likely than whites to receive mandatory minimum sentences and 20% more likely to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
6. In a 2009 report, 2/3 of the criminals receiving life sentences were non-whites. In New York, it is 83%.
7. African Americans make up 57% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses.
8. The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that an African American male born in 2001 had a 32% chance of going to jail in his lifetime, while a Latino male has a 17% chance, and a white male only 6%.
9. In 2012, 51% of Americans expressed anti-black sentiments in a poll; a 3% increase from 2008.
10. A survey in 2011 revealed that 52% of non-Hispanic whites expressed anti-Hispanic attitudes.
11. Reports show that nearly 50% of Americans under 18 are minorities. The trend projects a reversal in the population where by 2030, the majority of people under 18 will be of color, and by 2042 nonwhites will be the majority of the U.S. population.
This is the website I used……https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-racial-discrimination
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destructure
Most homicides are committed by blacks.
———————————————————————————————-
False.
Most homicides (in the known universe) are committed by white people; but most people charged and convicted of homicide are black/nonwhite.
*Welcome to white supremacy*
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Thwack…………”Most homicides (in the known universe) are committed by white people; but most people charged and convicted of homicide are black/nonwhite.”
Very true.
Basically what the statistics and studies like Ferguson show is that white, and Black cops, do is let white people and motorist alone, pass them by. However they are suspicious of every Black person they see, which they question, pull over, search, etc….The more you shake the tree the more fruit you get.
White people just don’t go to prison unless they are poor or have committed numerous crimes and the system just can’t keep letting them go. Look at the bankers who stole hundreds of millions of dollars, who sold subprime mortgage loans and defaulted on the same people, Robert Blake, Phil Spector, Darren Wilson, every single cop video taped killing unarmed Black men (there are hundreds and hundreds of those cases, over 1,000 a year)…..
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To William the Conqueror:
It shows that whites RAPE more people than Blacks at a rate of 2 to 1, especially when it comes to child molestation.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
Well from the link you provided the arrest rate for black rape perpetrators is 2.74 times higher than for whites and the arrest rate for other sexual offences in every category is also higher for blacks than for whites. Given that there are almost 6 times as many whites as blacks in the US you need to adjust the figures for the respective populations. That said such figures will be much lower than the actual crimes since they tend to be under reported, albeit the figures for victim surveys have generally reflected the arrest rates over time.
The corollary for the other argument for police shootings indicates that police over the period between 2003 – 2009 the figures by race ethnicity for people known to have been killed by law-enforcement officers 41.7% white, 31.7% black, and 20.3% were Hispanic. But looking at the demographics of the US blacks (12.6%) are clearly over represented and whites (73%) are underrepresented.
I strongly suspect Abagond will not want us to continue this discussion on this thread since it is off topic and classic troll bait. If you wish to reply please do so on the open forum.
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To William the Conqueror:
.Becy I am sorry to break the news to you but being Jewish is not an ethnic classification, it is a religion.
You’re giving a definite answer for a question that is not even settled within the Jewish community. Well yes it is a religion but is certainly more than that and is more akin to an ethnicity.,. as there are Jews who as atheists (they can even be an adherent to various Eastern religions like Buddhism..) but fully accepted by the Jewish community as Jews.. and it is not easy to convert. (With some Jews never truly accepting converts as Jews..)
Second of all Jesus was not Jewish, he was born of the tribe of Judah who practiced what we know as the Jewish religion of today but Jesus did not practice the Jewish religion, his entire agenda was to refute and alter the status quot of the Jewish religion. He did not follow any of the Jewish practices.
Predominantly both Jewish and Christian scholars consider that Jesus was Jewish.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-jesus-was-a-jew-why-are-we-catholic
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@ Uncle Milton and William
Here is also another option:
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Hold on Uncle Milton
Law does NOT = justice.
Everything Hitler and his National Socialist party did in Germany was LEGAL; including all the concentration camps.
Detaining people without trial or charge has never been illegal and it still isn’t today. Guantanamo Bay is a concentration camp in every dimension as legal and valid as Aushwitz or Bergan Belsen.
If it was wrong for Hitler to detain people without trial or charge INDEFINITELY, then its wrong for a black president of the United States to do the same.
So Uncle Milton, before you cite statistics for who breaks the law, keep in mind who MAKES the law.
White people dumped over 20,000,000 U.S. gallons of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid
(agent orange) on Vietnam; do you know how poisonous and toxic a chemical must be to kill jungle vegetation?
The Vietnam veterans who dropped it do; thats why they got compensation for the cancer, birth defects and nerve damage they suffered HANDLING IT.
But the nonwhite people they dropped it on?
They get nothing.
So once again Uncle Milton, before you cite statistics for who breaks the law, keep in mind who MAKES the law.
Welcome to white supremacy.
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@William the Conqueror
I believe with certain white people there is a belief that no matter what or who white person you are talking about then you most certainly have to be talking about them. They see a person as criticizing them and must get defensive.
Dave has been on this blog for a very long time and I can say as of late he has changed for the worse. On one hand it appears he is trying to maintain a sense of I am not a bigot status by saying all the scripted things certain whites like him say. On the other he is fighting his bigoted ideas and thoughts.
I know you have notices situations where you will say something and he automatically makes it about black people. He already has a pre-assumption about what you think or possibly will say and he prepares a response to it. It is simply a defensive mechanism so as to avoid being called the dreaded r-word.
Check out this website: http://thedailylove.com/when-you-assume-you-make-an-ass-out-of-me-and-you-give-it-up-2/
I hate to say this but Dave is not alone in doing this either.
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Milton…Here is one more apt considering my comment about child rape and white offenders,
Demographic characteristics of child molesters :
White : 77,6%
White : 77,6%
Black : 20,7%
Other : 1,7%
White men represent 30% of the population.
Black men represent 7% of the population.
I think you can NOW see that a 13% disparity is MUCH LOWER than a 47% disparity. Thank you….
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What is your source William?
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Sharinalr…..Little does Dave, Big Momma and Milton realize but they are CLEARLY PROVING Dr. Cress Welsings theory about Melanin, it clearly seems that white men lack self confidence and are extremely insecure. Of all the Black people on this Blog none of them seem to get angry or upset with racist things whites say or try to bait them with, however a white guy like me gets extremely defensive and wants to throw down when responding to these racist, clearly showing my lack of Melanin, LOL. The same goes for the white people who respond to criticism about white culture or white racism…they immediately do exactly what you are pointing out, make it about them, they must be feeling guilty about something.
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“Of all the Black people on this Blog none of them seem to get angry or upset with racist things whites say or try to bait them with…”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’m not so sure this is true. Speaking solely for myself, its been a long sometimes hard journey learning how to deal with this anger or upset. This blog has been helpful toward that end… learning when and how to be silent.
I’m STILL learning….
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KING….Here are a few sites I gathered my info from……
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TU8SR7K33U7OMVEDL
http://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/populations/REMP/black.html#Demographics
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblackdemographics.com
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fnational%2Fpercentage-non-hispanic-whites-hits-all-time-63-article-
Even if you use the FBI statistics the numbers end up being 35% of rape committed by white men and 25% of rape committed by Black men. The numbers are very skewed because the population numbers include WOMEN. Lets face it women do not commit rape, it is almost an all male crime. White women outnumber white men by 5% and Black women outnumber Black men by about 3%. So even though the white population is 63% only 30% are men and even though the Black population comprises 14% only 7% are men. So now if you compare percentages it is much different than what the right and white want you to believe. So we now see that INDEED white men have a 10% more propensity for rape and like the other comment exposes a 34% more propensity for child molestation.
This is just more proof that there are many variables and experiences that cause people to behave the way they do and the color of their skin is not a determining factor but their life experiences are a huge viable explanation. Almost every single child molester or rapist was he himself raped or molested. Almost every wife beater was beaten or raised in a home where one of his parents was beaten by the other. Every single gang member grew up around gang members. Just more proof that you are a product of your environment and if your environment has been corrupted and impoverished from day one to this day you will almost certainly not make it out of the mire unless you are an incredible human being with incredible human beings around you….there are so many incredible human beings in this country, wouldn’t you say?
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Just Me….I shouldn’t have made a claim that spoke for everyone. I should say that it seems to me that Black bloggers here appear to stay very calm and confident in the face of ignorance and racism. I did not mean to speak for all….
Thank you for your comment though…
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@WC
Yes, echoing King, where did you get these from? Looks like we need to steer away from both white men and black men as the other 63% of the population only commits 1.7% of the child molestation.
Frankly, child molestation is starting to steer off topic anyway.
and another
So, where does that put you? you also confirm Welsing’s theory (not in your beliefs, but in your person?) I just think it is a matter of black people having decades of experience of being forced to keep their cool around white people, but it is a lifelong learning process.
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Jefe….I have been off topic yes, I followed the stream of comments relating to Blacks making excuses by Big Momma.
However my numbers regarding the 30% and the 7% I came up with on my own using the data on the websites I posted. Others pointed out the Black population and the white population by percentage and black population by percentage and that Blacks on a larger percentage commit rape or child molestation are based on the entire population, i just set the record straight by taking out the female population which is only responsible for less than 2% of rape altogether. Others made the argument Blacks rape more by percentage except when you take away the huge padded percentage of women, in which you see that all the proof that whites do commit more rape is true…
You can’t use the 63% when only 30% are committing the crimes and you can’t use 14% when only 7% are committing the crimes. So numbers are illusions unless you look at them thoroughly…
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Jefe……I am just learning about Dr. Welsing and the Melanin theory, as I stated when this first posted. It didn’t take long for the racist to show up and muddy the waters. I have a hard time ignoring them when they try to post numbers and comments that are clearly skewed, wrong or cherry picked so I respond.
As far as my opinion about the Melanin theory I am still in the middle, i have not come to a conclusion as to what I believe but as we continue to debate and I contemplate the actions of myself and other bloggers I am beginning to see some examples where this theory may be somewhat accurate. You can see in my comments as I waffle back and forth with some people, sometimes in jest. I really need to go to her website and do some more reading about this subject but sometimes you get drawn in to the debate before you have a chance to do any research…I will remain on topic from this point on though, Thanks Jefe.
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Hey William,
There was no offense taken.
I was just kind of thinking – – – out loud… about the frustration I feel and deal with at times which hour after hour and year after year shapes/refines how I personally come against racism-white supremacy, plus all sorts of ignorance and willful stupidity.
I strongly suspect you know what I mean. 🙂
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just me…..yes I know, i didn’t get that at all.
but i do know that when i get in defensive mode i can generalize and what i really want to stop doing is speaking for others,
i appreciate your consideration on both post..thank you.
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To William the Conqueror:
Little does Dave, Big Momma and Milton realize but they are CLEARLY PROVING Dr. Cress Welsings theory about Melanin, it clearly seems that white men lack self confidence and are extremely insecure.
Because I point out the errors in your and destructure’s posts I’m insecure..? Why..? As I said before we are off topic, I would be happy to discuss this further on the open forum or some other appropriate thread.
To Thwack:
“So once again Uncle Milton, before you cite statistics for who breaks the law”
I offered a rebuttal to flawed posts by William the conqueror and destructure… … most assuredly in the past three hundred years or so, people whose origins are from Europe have been able to project power at a rate much greater than most of the other races/ethnicities on the planet. Going back 1000 years I would have to hand the crown to the Mongols, at least on a per capita basis, for being able to project power.
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Uncle Milton….”people whose origins are from Europe have been able to project power at a rate much greater than most of the other races/ethnicities on the planet.”
This is what you want your contribution to human life on Earth to be? Destruction of human beings using weaponry far superior than your opponents, genocide and thievery of others possessions, using force against peace loving people and using weaponless human beings to do your bidding, the torture and rape of children, being placed on the worlds most brutal list?
By all means sir have at it….However because I share your skin color I get thrown into the mix.
We all know what type of white person has an insecure need to control others he feels an inadequacy towards, the conservative frightened fear mongering white man….
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But getting back Frances Welsing, I did download a PDF of the book, it’s a series of rambling essays written over more than a decade, I find it markedly lacking in scholarship and riddled with inaccuracies. By the definitions in the Oxford and Merriam Webster she is espousing a racist theory. As in racism: the belief that some races of people are better than others. She not only believes whites think they are inferior to blacks she believes that they are in fact inferior.
Let’s look at a few quotes:
“On both St. Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day, the white male gives gifts of chocolate candy with nuts…. If his sweetheart ingests “chocolate with nuts”, the white male can fantasize that he is genetically equal to the Black male.”
When she espoused this on Phil Donahue the audience broke out in laughter.
“Is it not also curious that when white males are young and vigorous, they attempt to master the large brown balls, but as they become older and wiser, they psychologically resign themselves to their inability to master the large brown balls? Their focus then shifts masochistically to hitting the tiny white golf balls in disgust and resignation — in full final realization of white genetic recessiveness.”
Guess she forgot about bowling, a game that is historically much more popular than golf, especially for lower/working class whites (although I have bowled with blacks, Latinos, and Asians.). As for golf what is that supposed to say about the rise in popularity of the sport among Asians…? Meh.
She claims the word semite (as in antisemite) comes from the latin root semi which she believes mean half black/half white. False – it comes from the Greek pronunciation of Shem, one of the sons of Noah.
She suggests the swastika of Hitler and company is a spinning cross, whereas the swastika (derived from Sanskrit) symbol, misappropriated by the National Socialists, is an ancient symbol that dates from the stone age and is prominently featured in Hindu and Buddhist cultures. It was also seen among the Navajo in the US, various indigenous people in Brazil, pre Christian Europe, as well as other cultures.
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William the Conqueror:
This is what you want your contribution to human life on Earth to be?
Both a non sequitur and a straw man…. I point out the flaws in your post (as well as destructuire’s) and you come out with a string of supposed character flaws and logical fallacies.
As for my contribution to human life on Earth, it predominantly consists of two daughters. Everything else about your statement is an invalid assumption and projection.
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Uncle Milton………i stand by my comments and pointing out your opinion is not pointing out errors. As you said, the Jewish ethnic or religion decision has not been decided yet, so pointing out an error would mean you were able to say, with certainty, which argument is correct and which argument is in error, you failed to do that by your own statement.
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To William the Conqueror:
Once again off topic but using the link you provided and figures the reported arrest rate for blacks is most assuredly higher than for whites. This may or may not reflect actual criminal acts but I simply going off the data provided. Here’s the link you provided:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
Based upon the figures provided in the link above and the US population provided in 2010 census:
Whites arrested for rape 8,946 Blacks arrested for rape 4,229
US White population 223,553,265, US Black population 38,929,319
So the arrest rate for whites is 4 out of 100,000 people and for Blacks 10.86 out of 100,000. What clearly stands out is these numbers seem very low. No surprise as rape is an under reported and prosecuted crime. Because of the under reporting, the rate at which whites commit rape could very well be higher than for blacks but the figures you provided simply do not bear that out. That’s my point William – don’t make claims when the underlying data contradicts your assertion. As for your statement about child molestation, please provide the exact link and page for your claims as I found no data in the links to support your assertion.
As you said, the Jewish ethnic or religion decision has not been decided yet..
You stated “but being Jewish is not an ethnic classification, it is a religion” simply put that is not in agreement with conventional Jewish thought.
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm
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Uncle Milton
But getting back Frances Welsing, I did download a PDF of the book, it’s a series of rambling essays written over more than a decade, I find it markedly lacking in scholarship and riddled with inaccuracies.
————————————————————————————————-
.
This is a typical white response to Dr. Welsings work; but the key is, these white critics never offer a theory of their own to explain the origin or mechanisms of racism white supremacy behavior?
They try to dismiss the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation without replacing it with one of their own.
If Im using a saw to cut down a tree you can’t walk up and convince me to stop using it unless you have something BETTER to replace it with.
But this is exactly what white people like Uncle Milton are asking us to do.
There may be a better tool out there?
But until I get it, Im using what works.
Now get the fukc out the way;
timberrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
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@Thwack
Some do offer the peace, love, and forgiveness.
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@sharinalr
Thats all fine and well but have you ever tried to pay rent with “peace, love, and forgiveness?”
What happens when white people can no longer afford to pay black people to stay out of the productive side of the economy through government handouts and welfare programs…?
The Eric Garner video was a racial “snuff film”; its whats coming for all you negroes when you are finally forced into the real economy. Dr. Welsing has spent her entire life trying to help black people understand what racism white supremacy is, how it works, and how to counter it.
If black people don’t want to hear it, fine; let them all get snuffed out like Eric Garner.
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How about all the other people around the world with lower quantities of melanin… are the ALL jealous and evil?
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William
“Little does Dave, Big Momma and Milton “—I would not lump them into one category by any means.
Dave is as I said above and there is another commenter in here just like him. He seems to say anything to prove how not racist he is yet constantly trying to defend his fairness to black people when not even asked. I pity him though.
Big Momma is a bit complex. I think kiwi probably has a better idea of him and his obsession with abagond.
Uncle Milton tries to provide “truth” and “balance” but the way he goes about it seems as if he is disputing one person and not the other, even when he claims he is correcting both. Though I never pegged him as insecure or anything of the like.
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Uncle Milton…..You are lumping the womens population in with a crime that is committed by 99% men. I used percentages. In 2013 whites represented 63% of the population, the lowest ever. Half of 63% is 31.5%. White women outnumber white men by 5% which comes out to 1.5% of 63% or now 30%. So the white male population is 30% of the population. 65.0% of the rapes were committed by whites or 64% by white men.
Blacks represent 14% of the population, half of that is 7% and Black women outnumber Black men by 3% which comes out to less than 1% of 14% so I did not subtract anything from 7%. 32.5% of the rapes were committed by Blacks or 31% by Black men, remember we are subtracting 1% for the amount of women who commit rape which is 1% on both sides. The Bureua of Statistics stated that 99% of the people convicted of and imprisoned in response to rape accusations were male, with only 1% of those convicted being female.
So now that we have the numbers all filed down to the real numbers, we subtract the 30% from 64% and we get 34% of rapes in this country are committed by white men. We subtract 7% from 31% and you get 24% which Black men are responsible for. So we can see now that in actuality white men raped 11% more women than Black men did in 2013. That is how I came to the truth in the numbers….the actual percentage of rapes by skin color goes to whites.
Here is the link for child molestation figures….
http://childprotection.lifetips.com//cat/63573/sex-offender-statistics/index.html
According to the Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities by the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, the following statistics have been recorded concerning the characteristics of offenders who violate and assault children.
* Those inmates who were convicted of committing violent acts against children were more like to have been white, a percentage of nearly 70%, than any other race.
* White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates.
* About one in every seven Hispanic convicts had been convicted for a crime against a child.
Here are my statistic link for the above stats.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf
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Excellent post, Abagond.
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To Thwack:
This is a typical white response to Dr. Welsings work; but the key is, these white critics never offer a theory of their own to explain the origin or mechanisms of racism white supremacy behavior?
Are you kidding..? There are dozens of white authors who’ve written books about white supremacy and it’s origins and hundreds of books and articles written by blacks, Latinos, and Asians about the same subject which do not entertain the idea of genetic melanin superiority/inferiority. Some have been reviewed on this site.
Whites – Tim Wise, Robert Jensen, David Roediger, Noel Ignatiev
Blacks – Franz Fanon, James Baldwin, Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King…. and many many more…
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Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
Finally a post by a popular blogger on this Book.
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I was so interested and excited about abagond finally doing a post I forgot to reblog and facebook share.
Take that you numerous racist commentors that want to avoid any serious discussion of the specific subjects and issues address by the the Dr.welsing in this book.
@thwack
At first I was going to say no to your suggestion I and others do our own post on Dr.welsing and her book the ISIS Papers, but seeing how numerous and strident the antagonistic white commentors are in opposition and how hands off abagond has been in letting them have their way ; as well my forgetting about reblogging and facebook sharing of blog content each of which provide a domain of control which in my case would entail the exclusion of useless and unfocused chatter, I hereby welcome and invite you to visit my blog or facebook page on this topic.
BTW the suntaning salon thing classic just classic,I started googling suntaning and salons in my area and lets just say I be doing a lot of future investigations;-)
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Wonder when trojanpam gonna show up and comment?
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here’s one for you
I very interesting example in entertainment
The Blacklist
a show featuring a white male criminal that likes to regularly dress in all black
surrenders to the F.B.I and tells them he has a “blacklist”
a list of as yet unknown to the FBI “elite criminals”
guess where they the FBI decide to keep him after they form a special taskforce to investigate his claims
at a blacksite
but wait there more – this white male criminal that likes to regularly dress in all black
will only speak to one person in the FBI ,who
why a white female who it just happens (or maybe the myterious – white male criminal that likes to regularly dress in all black – planned it this way??) to have just started working at the FBI that very day….
You know another interesting thing about this white female – not latino or eastern european or any other excuse – has jet black hair ,blacker than or as most black people – but shes white right?
not a black haired white skined person but just white.
BTW why does white ,right ,light ,spite,might,hieght and tight all ryme?
can somebody provide pausible explaination besides Dr.welsings work hmmm….
what about bitch ,which,witch,switch,glicht, and hitch??
or why god is dog spelled backward or evil is live ?
or ponder the question – is the only way one population that’s genetically subordinate to all other populations ever be able to compensate for its natural and inherent subordinate condition by dominating socially and culturally all other more genetically dominant populations without violence and lies hence without resorting to means that result in immoral activity??
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Uncle Milton
To Thwack:
Are you kidding..? There are dozens of white authors who’ve written books about white supremacy and it’s origins and hundreds of books and articles written by blacks, Latinos, and Asians about the same subject
———————————————————————————————
And thats parts of the problem; there is far too much useless chatter about racism and not enough technical and scientific research being done complete with experiments, control sets… all those mechanisms white people use when they are really serious about solving a problem.
Tim Wise, Robert Jensen, David Roediger, Noel Ignatiev; the fact you even know their names is proof they are ineffective. Thats why they are promoted and supported with grants, media access…
To sum up, we don’t need “dozens of books” by “dozens of authors.”
Matter of fact, we don’t even need The Isis Papers.
The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation is actually quite short and simple.
Like all great theories, its beauty is in its simplicity.
I suspect even a 4th grader could understand it.
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@Michael Cooper
Interestingly enough the majority of Europeans have dark genitals too ranging from tannish to brownish. Only those with red hair and very fair skin seem to sport very pale translucent genitalia.
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@TeddyBearSniffer
How the hell do you know what the “majority of Europeans” have?
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resw77…..”How the hell do you know what the “majority of Europeans” have?”
His chosen screen name ends with “sniffer”, I would assume his obsession with sniffing has brought him face to face with a wide array of “genitals”.
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On “3”
Everybody go stand in front of a full length mirror and strip.
Ready?
one,
two,
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I think Dr Welsing’s thesis is interesting even if I don’t agree with all aspects of it (I say that because I haven’t read the entire book). White collective behavior is data. We can’t make up data we can only interpret it. Whites are generally opposed to ANY theory that seeks the source of their own motivations but I think it is highly unlikely that white groups the world over could have behaved in the same genocidal way for centuries without a powerful psychological driver. Probably there’s a fundamental sense of separateness, disconnection and fear that fuels the white power drive.
Birdland:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140127-white-peace-doves-attacked-birds-rome-vatican-pope/
Quoted:
“Why Birds Attacked the Peace Doves in Rome
A crow and a gull targeted the freakish doves, bred to be unnaturally white
Why did the crow and the gull attack the doves? Because the doves were white. Thousands of pigeons (relatives of doves) live in Rome, as in most cities. They range in color from grayish to brownish to blackish and everything in between. Many other species of birds live in Rome as well, but none are pure white. So if you’re an aggressive, badass bird (as gulls and crows tend to be), what’s going to draw your attention? The pure-white bird. What’s going to be the target of your aggression? The pure-white bird. There’s a reason that albino birds (and other animals born without any color pigment) generally don’t live long in the wild: They’re easily seen, they can’t hide, and predators single them out for attack.”
Most pigeons are POC (pigeons of color…heheh). You have to specially breed the white ones and call them doves. These “special” white birds actually have a lower chance of survival in nature because of the lack of pigmentation. Now if pigeons were more self-aware (assuming they aren’t) white pigeons might be a bit nervous about this.
White people, however, have historically behaved as if they consider other people existential threats by default. Why? If you don’t like the color angle, give another reason. Appeal to “human nature” (a form of universalism) is suspect because we have documented evidence from the pens of white explorers that the native inhabitants they were about to wipe out were surprisingly kind to them.
It’s kind of funny that white cultures have spent so much time telling the world how white they are and how much better that makes them yet when someone says “OK, you’re white, let’s examine the other implications of that”, it becomes racist, overly simplistic and REALLY complicated to determine who is actually white. It’s a bit of a disappearing act! Again, whites talk about “Western Culture” but if somone starts to critically examine it then it fractures into Portugese, British, French, German etc. and becomes impossible to pin down. They may be diverse in some ways but they can be grouped on the basis of their common behavior such as participation in the “scramble for Africa”.
White supremacy probably originated as an underlying inferiority complex that compelled whites, as a group, to destroy and subjugate others in order to feel safe and better about themselves. A desire is the daughter of a deficiency. Who ever wanted something they already had? I have heard people say that going to poor countries (ie mostly former European colonies) on vacation made them feel better about what they had. In order for them to be better off and for those places, which cater to their desire to feel good about themselves, to exist there had to have been white supremacy and economic exploitation first.
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OK,, we all know that the Isis Papers is more crazy conspiracism, so please :review this one instead:
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preface pg vi
“(fhe word Semite is from the Latin preftx, semi
meaning “half’ – half Black and half white, and that means mulatto
(non-white).”
Dr. Frances Cress Welsling
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Semite
source: “online etymology dictionary”
“1847, “a Jew, Arab, Assyrian, or Aramaean” (an apparently isolated use from 1797 refers to the Semitic language group), back-formation from Semitic or else from French Sémite (1845), from Modern Latin Semita, from Late Latin Sem “Shem,” one of the three sons of Noah (Gen. x:21-30), regarded as the ancestor of the Semites (in old Bible-based anthropology), from Hebrew Shem. In modern sense said to have been first used by German historian August Schlözer in 1781.”
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1
The Cress Theory of Color-Confrontation
and Racism (White Supremacy):
A Psychogenetic Theory and World Outlook
(1970)
“Thus, the hippies and yippies, by allowing
dirt to accumulate on themselves, in one sense, are adding color to
their skins. They also, by allowing their head and facial hair to prolife~te,
cover themselves with the only part of their bodies that has substantive
color, their hair”
pg. 8
dude…
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@Sharina. My apologies, I got a little out of pocket on this. You know what you have every right to go into a tanning salon. It was the way it was phrased and the setting that got me going. Which wasn’t from you anyway. I like you and most of what you say.
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@thwack “Just to be clear; The Isis Papers and The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation are two separate publications. Only the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation was submitted for peer review.”
that’s interesting, maybe in the isis papers she tuned it up, I mean that is basically what the first essay or whatever is called. lecture? i guess
this link is illegal
https://kickass.so/the-isis-papers-the-keys-to-the-colors-dr-frances-cress-welsing-pdf-pld991-t7293955.html
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this all’s givin me flashbacks to all this things that has been said (by me) around 2 years ago and explored? like…
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@Dave
Thank you. I was very surprised at how you acted on this thread as it is highly unusual. I was actually beginning to believe you were a new Dave instead.
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http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/take-haters-bbw-circle-support-action-wronged-ir-couple/
this is interesting, and also addresses the ‘oh i don’t want to lose my melanin’ vs. ‘oh we don’t need any damn melanin’ there is, imnsho, not a significant diferrence morally or intellectually from either standpoint..
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this link is illegal
https://kickass.so/the-isis-papers-the-keys-to-the-colors-dr-frances-cress-welsing-pdf-pld991-t7293955.html
or you could get a copy like i did from your local public library and then scan and covert it to a more durable and accessible format – MS Word
However pdf and torrents are the current standard of access and distribution;
as to legality – double standard and lack of moral authority come to mind as in its okay to be founded on slavery and conquest and we can still murder without accountability but you need to pay for everything you get? really?!
btw way how much do you really need ? and
and why although I’ve been a “customer” of yahoo ,google and facebook among others for years and “never” paid them a cent for very useful services and their all multibillion dollar companies ??
as to
Don’t Shoot: One Man, A Street Fellowship, and the End of Violence in Inner-City America
I’ll be googling for a free pdf
because NO we all don’t know or think that the Isis Papers is more crazy conspiracism, btw is even a word or something made up.
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@King
How about all the other people around the world with
lower quantities of melanin… are the ALL jealous and evil?
arabs who had a african slave trade for hundreds of years prior during and after european
colonial slavery – can you say bad example? 😉
as to asians or in this case north asians – i’d be surprised if given the stark phenotypic and geographic similarities
there where/are not psychological and cultural similarities as well.
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To Mbeti:
arabs who had a african slave trade for hundreds of years prior during and after european colonial slavery – can you say bad example? 😉
True but the slavery of the Arab Caliph and Ottoman Empire afterward was not race based as they also had a substantial number of European slaves. So that undercuts your argument.
as to asians or in this case north asians – i’d be surprised if given the stark phenotypic and geographic similarities
there where/are not psychological and cultural similarities as well.
Sure if a group doesn’t fit the model.. just discard the group.
And how would this apply to the wide phenotypic variation within blacks…?
Would a man like Jeremiah Wright be in fear of Wesley Snipes..?
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To thwack
“Just to be clear; The Isis Papers and The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation are two separate publications. Only the Cress Theory of Color Confrontation was submitted for peer review.”
The Cress theory of color confrontation was included in the first chapter of my copy of the Isis Papers.
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@Uncle Milton
And how would this apply to the wide phenotypic variation within blacks…?
by definition they are still “black” i.e. HAVE the ability to produce significant melanin skin pigmentation.
I’m not even saying Dr.welsings theory (opps) I’m mean hypothesis is valid or that all of her observations are accurate ,
Its just nice to finally have a semi open semi professional discussion of her work and issues she raises.
And in spite of the vigorous efforts of the many spite men here and through out the world ,I’ve been and will continue to learn ,communicate and participate.
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@thwack
sharinalr
I found The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation here:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/41065722?sid=21105575703013&uid=2&uid=3739616&uid=4&uid=3739256
This reference and research work is greatly appreciated
thank you
BTW was able to download and save without purchase;-)
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Seems that way. Blacks simply refuse to be broken by these events. Their resiliency scares and angers white Americans to no end. After all, if they’re this resilient, that means they can’t be stopped.
Think back to Cress’s theory. Now re-read the above.
Imagine playing a game where the enemies respawn over and over, en masse, unceasingly. Sooner or later, you’re gonna get tired of constantly beating back a never-ending digital horde.
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@Mbeti
Anytime.
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@George Ryder
“If whites are biologically hardwired to fear genetic annihilation when encountering people of color how can you blame them for trying to survive?”
Your comment is precisely why I said earlier that Cress’ work “evokes forgiveness, NOT an incitement of hate or violence.” But we’re all humans, not lions or tigers. So there’s absolutely no excuse for mistreating “people of colour,” regardless how pale one is. Part of being human is having control over emotion and proclivity.
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@sharinalr
that last comment of mine was directed toward thwack
sorry for the miscommunication.
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@ King
Some people, who are less melanated, are jealous of melanin-rich people. However, they’re some people who don’t want melanin-rich skin.
Personally, I’m very thankful to have melanin-rich skin. I live in sunny Southern California where there’s more hot days than cold ones. In fact, the month of December averages at 75-80 degrees. By having UV absorbent-skin the heat doesn’t bother me one one bit. I’ve recently learned that melanin-rich people not only absorb heat efficiently, we also dissipate heat efficiently as well. As my grandmother would say “God is Good.”
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@Michael Cooper
It really is a blessing. Sunny places like Southern California have high rates of melanoma, and so when you get out in the sun, it’s clear who’s skin is blessed and who’s is accursed.
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I love pseudo-science. I just never expected to see it highlighted here, with so many seemingly buying into rubbish.
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@George
People with dark skin don’t need more vitamin D than people with pale skin. That’s a big myth floating around, debunked by numerous studies. Plus the sun is not the only way to intake vitamin D.
And it’s not just my belief that pale skin in the sun is accursed, it is a fact of life. You can call it what you want to make yourself feel better but, people with pale skin burn in the sun. And I burn in the sun too…I’m just a little more honest and humble than others…
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@George
Yes. As in “doomed to harm or misery.” Don’t take it personal, but the sun does in fact cause harm to those without sufficient natural skin protectant, as I can attest. And again, call it something else if it makes you feel better.
@Joshua
There’s nothing “pseudo” about the study of melanin, and it’s one of the most studied areas of science today. Welsing, as a physician is more than qualified to provide a medical opinion about its affects, whether you agree with her professional opinion or not.
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@George Ryder
I understand the implications you have about the word, “accursed,” as evidenced by your question “who put this curse on the white man.” I don’t believe anyone can put a curse on someone else or that any fictitious guy in the sky exists.
“Accursed” ALSO means “doomed to harm or misery.” Objectively, pale skin (naturally exposed) is harmed by the sun. Is it not? It’s not about being “white” whatever that’s supposed to mean, it’s about having less than sufficient natural protection against harmful UV rays, which affects people of all races, including so-called “blacks.”
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@George Ryder
Thanks for telling me the reason why I do or say what I say. It is news to me. Clearly you’re the authority on my diction. I’ve explained myself sufficiently, and I have no reason whatsoever to hide anything from you because you are of no importance to me.
But here’s a suggested for you: learn that words have more than the one meaning to which you’re accustomed. Curse also means, “a cause of harm or misery,” which can in fact be scientific or objective. It’s also not my concern that you do not like my choice of words or are unfamiliar with the definitions of such words.
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White skin was evolved for Europe. It works well for places as far from the equator as Europe is, like Siberia, Canada, the northern US, New Zealand, Tasmania, Argentina and Chile. With proper diet, black and brown skin also works in those places.
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@George Ryder
“Oh yeah, that’s some real good science there resw77”
As a physician, Welsing is qualified to render a medical opinion. Are you equally qualified?
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@abagond
“White skin was evolved for Europe. ”
That’s an opinion, with which I completely disagree, evidenced by the fact that “white skin” occurs naturally in Africa (even at the equator), Asia and the Americas.
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@George Ryder
“what kind of “doctor” gives a “medical opinion” like the one below?”
Since you’ve ignored my question, should I assume you are not equally qualified to render a medical opinion? I’m not qualified, so I don’t know the answer to your question. However, I do know that psychiatrists are some of the most criticised physicians and there’s a huge “anti-psychiatry” movement. Welsing is no different from other psychiatrists who have made very controversial claims/diagnoses, and I don’t think she should be treated any differently simply because you disagree with her.
“so do you think white people are albino mutant offspring of Africans”
I don’t know what “white people” means. It is a fictitious concept created by racists to classify people based on their personal opinions of beauty.
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@George Ryder
What’s so “rhetorical” about a yes or no question if you are qualified to render a medical opinion? Since you’re making statements about the validity of a physician’s claims/diagnoses, it is more than appropriate (and logical) for one to ask you if you have had medical training. If you were qualified, then your opinion about Welsing would hold more weight.
“& you obviously are hiding what you really think”
Thanks again for telling me what I think. You must believe you have some psychic power. If so, your powers are a bit off today.
“do you believe melanin can cause high blood pressure because you feel the vibrations of stressed out individuals?”
I’ve never conducted a study on the effects of melanin on blood pressure, so I’m humble enough to admit when I don’t know something. Perhaps you can enlighten me on the effects of melanin, if any, based on the thorough research you’ve conducted.
“do you believe pale people are without empathy due to a lack of melanin?”
I don’t think “empathy” or any other emotion can be scientifically compared to the same emotion experienced by someone else.
“do you believe pale people are the mutant offspring of Africans?”
All people are the offspring of Africans, as evidenced by archaeological evidence that the first humans lived in Africa and migrated to other parts of the world. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
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@Mbeti
No problem. Either way I am glad the link ended up being useful. 🙂
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@George Ryder
Read my responses above if you want to know what I think. Your thoughts about what’s in my head are your own bizarre thoughts alone, no matter how desperately you try to elicit a specific response from me.
I’m not sorry that I don’t fit your stereotypes but am an individual with a mind of my own. A dose of humility would do you well.
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@George
“ok, i know you don’t want to go there”
No you don’t know what I have not already told you about my thoughts.
“let me ask you a few questions i know you won’t be able to dance around”
I’ve directly answered your questions above. You, on the other hand, are the only one who “danced around” or completely “dismissed” questions posed to you. So I won’t answer any more of your questions, until you’ve answered mine.
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@George
You’ve been so focused on trying to elicit a specific response from me that you perhaps don’t realise that I’ve asked you several questions throughout our exchange, not just the one to which you’ve finally responded.
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@George
“clearly not a direct answer”
I directly responded to your question. However, I could not answer yes or no based on a false premise. Your question if white people are albino mutant offspring is like asking “do monsters fly?” If I don’t think monsters exist, I can’t answer yes or no because either answer would be erroneous. Equally, I don’t think white people exist, it’s a fictitious, political concept that’s different in different countries. It’s not a scientific term, and therefore both a yes and no response would be erroneous in this context.
“once again, not a direct answer”
No, it was a very direct answer. I said, ALL PEOPLE are the offspring of Africans. Regardless what you deem a “mutant,” I clearly said, ALL PEOPLE are the offspring of Africans. So there’s your direct answer.
“do you think pale people are genetically inferior because they produce less melanin?”
Again, I won’t be answering any more of your questions until you’ve answered mine.
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Bye! You couldn’t make me respond the way you wanted and your desperate attempts to elicit specific responses have failed!
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The childish one is the one who’s upset that you couldn’t control what I say.
Your weak attempt to share your guilt with me and bolster your self esteem has been an utter failure.
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The difference is that mine is admittedly an OPINION based on the actual comments you’ve WRITTEN. You, on the other hand, pretend to “know” the unstated.
But I thought “we’re done here.” What happened?
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@resw77
Doctors, as in MDs, are not scientists. They are essentially technicians of the human body. The nutty ideas of an MD don’t make any impact on me or science at all. Welsing is essentially a quack even as doctors go.
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@Joshua
“Doctors, as in MDs, are not scientists”
Many MDs conduct research and experiments, and are therefore scientists as well, like Welsing, a behavioural scientist.
“The nutty ideas of an MD don’t make any impact on me or science at all.”
People disagree with physicians’ opinions and diagnoses all the time, just as they disagree with researcher hypotheses, theories and methods. Disagreement is very common in the scientific community.
“Welsing is essentially a quack even as doctors go.”
While you’re entitled to your own opinion,Welsing actually bases her opinions on her years of study in medicine and thousands of psychiatric and behavioural analyses of her patients.
What’s the basis of your opinions?
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@George Ryder
Is it also scientific to draw conclusions about Welsing’s opinions based on a snippet from a Wikipedia article written by God knows whom in reference to a skeptic without any scientific credentials who didn’t quote Welsing’s actual hypothesis?
Why not quote Welsing’s actual hypothesis, and then provide us a link to all the research you’ve published on the affects of melanin that contradicts it?
If you actually did some research, instead of pure guesswork, you’d find a wealth of scientific studies have been conducted on what Welsing FIRST hypothesized many years ago.
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^^^^You have heard infanticide right?
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@George
Again, if you want me to respond to any more of your questions, start by responding to mine. I’m showing you the same disregard you’ve shown me.
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@sharinalr
Albino abandonment is very common as well. Even partial albinos:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037734/The-lonely-seal-wanted-Pup-abandoned-having-rare-brown-fur.html
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You’d prefer that I lie and say albino abandonment does not exist in the wild just to make you feel better? Are you that desperate for a self-esteem boost? Fact is, it has nothing to do with a “black supremacist” philosophy, whatever that’s supposed to mean, and you do not know what race I am.
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@resw77
I am convinced that some people don’t know things because they don’t want to know. Their minds are made up and it is then a matter of proving them wrong.
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You’re right, there’s no such thing as albino abandonment in the wild. That article and the many observations of all those zoologists are all made up. They’re all liars.
There, feel better now? Does that quell your self-esteem issues?
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@sharinalr
Oh he knows… His agenda has always been to elicit a reason to label someone a racist or “black supremacist,” which is why he’s grown so frustrated with all my responses.
You can see that after I merely pointed out an article of an abandoned albino baby seal, in response to his doubt that animals “act hostile towards other members of their own species simply because they appear a tiny bit different physically” that he elatedly retorted “black supremacist” even though it’s completely illogical. That’s how desperate (and pathetic) he is.
It’s his way to assuage his internal guilt by searching hard for some reason (clearly any reason whatsoever) to think anyone who doesn’t consider Welsing a nutjob is racist. It doesn’t matter that Welsing is an MD, that she’s analysed thousands of patients, or that her hypotheses have been tested by white scientists, the results of which have been published and available for all to see. Because Welsing’s thoughts reveal his insecurities, it is important for him to rebuke her or anyone else who considers her a physician who’s entitled to her professional opinion.
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@George Ryder
“i always knew you thought pale people were albinos. ”
And I said that where? You got that from an article about an abandoned baby seal? Come on, even you can do better than that.
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@George
When you say she are you referring to resw77 or Welsing?
You are the one challenging said ideas so you would then have to prove said ideas wrong. It is not up to said party to prove them right to cater to the one who disagrees. For example if a scientist says eating a small amount of acid a day kills cancer cells, then another scientist will not just say “how absurd!” They will find and present the research to back up why it is absurd.
If all you are doing is crying foul , then you are not discrediting her. You are just crying foul.
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@resw77
Lol. Hate to say it but what you described is him on most subject matter.
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@George Ryder
Hmmm…I’m pale but have never been to Africa. So how could I possibly believe “pale people are albinos that got kicked out of Africa”? Another one of your illogical conclusions…
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I don’t know what’s funnier: your earlier doubt of the notion of animals rejecting offspring “because they appear a tiny bit different physically” or your mockery of the example of animals rejecting offspring “because they appear a tiny bit different physically.” Poor George, he doesn’t know what to think now…
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I think these ideas are stupid too. There’s nothing wrong with white people biologically. The problem is they created this racial system to gain wealth and power and control over others and they’re doing their best to keep it going.
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“i contribute more thoughtful posts than all the mindless fluff you bring to the table combine”—-Lol most of what you attempt to contribute is my reworded post, but keep telling yourself all the god given lies you can stand.
If you are a good boy I will post a link to where abagond says he deleted enough of your childish posts.
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“I don’t know what’s funnier: your earlier doubt of the notion of animals rejecting offspring “because they appear a tiny bit different physically” or your mockery of the example of animals rejecting offspring “because they appear a tiny bit different physically.” Poor George, he doesn’t know what to think now…”——I think his imaginary wittiness is funnier. Oh George the genius has fooled us again. ROFL
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@Speak Out
“There’s nothing wrong with white people biologically. ”
What does “wrong…biologically” mean (emphasis on “wrong”)?
“The problem is they created this racial system to gain wealth and power and control over others and they’re doing their best to keep it going.”
And why’s it such a problem for a behavioural scientist to attempt to explain why, based on her psychiatric analyses?
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@resw77
White people are not racist because of lack of melanin or anything else involving their genes. They’re racist because they want to maintain their white privilege in the capitalist world system which is organized in such a way that in every category there is a group that is labeled “superior” and a bunch of others who are labeled “inferior”. The racial system we live under is only about 500 years old. I really don’t want to waste my time arguing with people who think racism is caused by melanin or lack thereof.
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“you guys can stand behind Cress’ crazy theories all you want.”
LOL, and which one is that? You’re really reaching now…
“i believe racism is a behavior that is learned socially not one that’s inherited biologically. prove me wrong.”
Another of George’s broken records. We’ve already exhausted this same “racism is learned” thing above, and like all his attempts to elicit a specific response, it was UNsuccessful.
I guess he thinks repeating the same thing over again will get me to say something different?
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@Speak Out
“I really don’t want to waste my time arguing with people who think racism is caused by melanin or lack thereof.”
I never said “racism is caused by melanin or lack thereof,” FYI. I asked you specific questions, which you refused to address.
And I don’t like wasting my time with people who make assumptions without any basis, as you’ve done.
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@George Ryder
Short memory (or lack of brain cells) you have. Probably the meth. I clearly said above “I find it hard to believe that a child of any race is capable of racism without having been taught either by parents, TV/movies, school or otherwise…it seems to me that racism gradually developed over time.”
I’ve answered all your questions until it was clear you were ignoring mine. You, being the hypocrite that you are, answered only 1 (begrudgingly) out of several questions I posed to you, and then have the nerve to say I don’t answer questions. Oh George, you’re going to have to do better than that.
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I am not sure if I read this in Welsing or anywhere else, but it was stated that some white people are more concerned with how they are viewed rather than fighting white supremacy.
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^LOL. I guess when you’re proven wrong over and over again, the mature thing to do is resort to name-calling and insults.
My questions have already been posed throughout this thread, which I won’t be rehashing any further.
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To resw77
“I find it hard to believe that a child of any race is capable of racism without having been taught either by parents, TV/movies, school or otherwise…it seems to me that racism gradually developed over time.”
A very reasonable statement with which I agree, but in essence in opposition to Francis Wesling’s theories as she pointedly states white racism is caused by a reaction to black superiority. My previous comments: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-isis-papers/#comment-273254
As for her theories and granting them legitimacy because she’s a doctor.. there have been plenty of white doctors with bizarre crackpot racial theories also.. that doesn’t make them legitimate. (Josef Mengele comes immediately to mind as well as this guy outline by Abagond: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/drapto/
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@resw77
That is what he is good at. Deflecting by calling names and whining, but of all the names he calls people they all apply to him.
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@Uncle Milton
“A very reasonable statement with which I agree, but in essence in opposition to Francis Wesling’s theories”
Right, and I never once claimed or suggested that I agreed with Welsing’s hypotheses. George Ryder came to that unfounded ASSumption on his own.
” there have been plenty of white doctors with bizarre crackpot racial theories also.. ”
Exactly. And we’ve discussed that at length above: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-isis-papers/#comment-272804
I stated that my goal was to point out the double standard. And regardless if someone personally believes Welsing’s medical opinion is “crackpot” or not, Welsing is qualified to render such an opinion. Calling her names and discrediting her (especially with no substantiation), however, IMO is prejudiced. Not one person on this thread has made a cogent case that disproves any of Welsing’s hypotheses. Further, not one person has even been able to articulate what these hypotheses were or her methods for testing them.
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Sure George if you say so. I mean this is coming from the person who is claiming to read minds and flooding the board with nothing but insults (just like I and others said) while still trying to claim others are lying on you. ROFL
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^^^No George you sound crazy. Welsing is not the one telling everyone how she can read Resw77 mind. You are doing that.
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^^^^I guess I will leave you to your delusions, but the only reason you are in stitches is because you keep hurting yourself trying to be relevant. How often must one make a fool of themselves before they realize they are the fool? hmmm….
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^^I see you enjoy providing proof to everything I say. It is better for people to see it rather than me simply accusing you of it. 🙂
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To resw77:
Calling her names and discrediting her (especially with no substantiation), however, IMO is prejudiced. Not one person on this thread has made a cogent case that disproves any of Welsing’s hypotheses.
She was clearly wrong about the origins of the swastika and the word semite.
Further, not one person has even been able to articulate …
I am not sure what you mean by articulate as most of hypotheses are simple.
what these hypotheses were or her methods for testing them…
From the Isis Papers:
The first albino mutations ( whites ) were produced from Blacks in Africa. These albinos, I suggest were chased North by the Blacks
or wandered north away from the intense sun so that they could survive.
She provides no scientific foundation for this as implied by the statement “I suggest”. Chased North by Blacks..? Really…? Was that the case for Northeast Asians..? Inuit, or any number of populations around the globe that have a lighter median complexion than Africans. (Which have range of complexions themselves.. does this mean there is hidden animosity by blacks with lighter skin versus blacks with darker skin.)?
As for Freud:
Freud made analyses on groups of people (women, men, children, “well-to-do” “Negro races of Africa,” etc.) based on limited analyses of individuals he studied. My goal is not to support any opinions of Welsing, just to establish the clear double standard that exists here.
Freud has come under enormous criticism and some of his theories are no long accepted by psychiatry, so I am not sure why you feel there is a double standard towards Francis Wesling.
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“i know your tactics & refuse to engage”—Little too late for that isn’t it? This is post number 100 of you claiming you refuse to engage?
“yer just plain crazy. “—Says the guy who can read minds.
“not my monkey not my circus. just like you said? what was the other thing? Bye Felicia.”—Is this proof of you stealing my words and rewording them like I said you do? WOW.
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Ah ha!! I found it. It was not Dr. Welsing, but Robert Jensen. Thanks to TrojanPam. In his essay he wrote:
“A final fear has probably always haunted white people but has become more powerful since the society has formally rejected overt racism: The fear of being seen, and seen-through, by non-white people. Virtually every white person I know, including white people fighting for racial justice and including myself, carries some level of racism in our minds and hearts and bodies. In our heads, we can pretend to eliminate it, but most of us know it is there. And because we are all supposed to be appropriately anti-racist, we carry that lingering racism with a new kind of fear: What if non-white people look at us and can see it? What if they can see through us? What if they can look past our anti-racist vocabulary and sense that we still don’t really know how to treat them as equals? What if they know about us what we don’t dare know about ourselves? What if they can see what we can’t even voice?”
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/fearsofwhitepeople.htm
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@George
“this whole conversation started when you called people with pale skin accursed. ”
That’s not actually what I said. It was, “when you get out in the sun, it’s clear who’s skin is blessed and who’s is accursed.” Your feelings are hurt only because you’re too dishonest with yourself to admit that pale skin burns in the sun. It’s not my job to lie to you to boost your self esteem. Hire someone to do that for you.
“i read through this threat too & i’m having trouble finding this list of questions you want answered so badly”
No, I already know the answers. You, on the other hand, in your typical hypocrisy, have asked me the same question numerous times. Clearly you’re the one who wants who wants questions “answered so badly.”
@Uncle Milton
“She was clearly wrong about the origins of the swastika and the word semite.”
Says who? You? What’s your basis? Your opinion sure isn’t correct, IMO.
“I am not sure what you mean by articulate as most of hypotheses are simple”
I mean people who have attempted to discredit Welsing have not articulated, i.e., expressed, her actual hypotheses. For example, George Ryder has quoted 5 times some random guy’s words that he found in a Wikipedia article.
“She provides no scientific foundation for this as implied by the statement “I suggest”. ”
I don’t know what you mean. Are you’re saying that she can’t prove that albinos were (a) chased out or (b) migrated on their own? If that’s what you’re saying, what’s an alternative?
“so I am not sure why you feel there is a double standard towards Francis Wesling”
If you read the comment exchange I referenced, you’d see that Dave had a hard time admitting that Freud’s analyses deserved the same criticism he was giving Welsing. That’s the “double standard” to which I was referring, and the like.
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resw77, lots of people conduct experiments. That doesn’t make her a scientist. Her writing shows her to be a quack.
White people are not albinos, for one.
As far as “blessed skin”, when I’m out in the sun, my skin turns very dark. When I’m not it goes pretty light. So I think I have the blessed skin.
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@Joshua
“resw77, lots of people conduct experiments. That doesn’t make her a scientist.”
But only a few have are training in medicine and behavioural science.
“Her writing shows her to be a quack.”
So does yours. The difference is that Welsing is qualified, you’re not.
“White people are not albinos, for one.”
Whatever floats your boat.
“when I’m out in the sun, my skin turns very dark. When I’m not it goes pretty light. So I think I have the blessed skin.”
LOL @ “very dark.” Aww. Good for you. I hope that makes you feel special.
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To resw77
Says who? You? What’s your basis? Your opinion sure isn’t correct, IMO.
Here are my previous comments:
“She claims the word semite (as in antisemite) comes from the latin root semi which she believes mean half black/half white. False – it comes from the Greek pronunciation of Shem, one of the sons of Noah.
She suggests the swastika of Hitler and company is a spinning cross, whereas the swastika (derived from Sanskrit) symbol, misappropriated by the National Socialists, is an ancient symbol that dates from the stone age and is prominently featured in Hindu and Buddhist cultures. It was also seen among the Navajo in the US, various indigenous people in Brazil, pre Christian Europe, as well as other cultures.”
You don’t have to agree my opinion, simply look at the origins of the swastika symbol and the origins of the word Semite widely available in dictionaries, textbooks, and widely available on the internet to hers.
I don’t know what you mean. Are you’re saying that she can’t prove that albinos were (a) chased out or (b) migrated on their own?
I saying she never bothered to prove it… as her words imply “I suggest..”
If that’s what you’re saying, what’s an alternative?
That human skin color was an evolutionary adaption to climate, sometimes juxtaposed with diet.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/skin-color
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3024016/
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@UM,
Are you simply saying that it is an alternative explanation (perhaps with some supporting scientific evidence, but still not proven)?
For example, Is the diet factor (ie, seafood) enough to explain why certain peoples who lived in certain higher latitude places for tens of thousands of years (ie, in Tasmania, New Zealand, Tierra del Fuego) yet still retained darker skin? And wouldn’t persons in Korea, Hokkaido, and England / Denmark / Norway also have a significant seafood diet? The longevity of modern day Japanese populations is often attributed to their high seafood diet.
I was thinking it might be some Northern hemisphere / Southern Hemisphere thing, but the article you quoted used the diet theory to explain the phenomenon in Inuit populations.
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@Uncle Milton
I had already read your opinions and think they’re wrong. First, the English term “Semite,” came from the Latin, through the colonisation of Britain by Romans, not Greeks. English obtained close to 30% of its vocabulary this way, FYI. So I don’t see how Welsing is wrong in this regard.
As to the swastika, AFAICT Welsing did not say that it originated with Germans (if that’s what you’re implying…I don’t really know what you’re saying). She just called it a spinning cross and explained why Nazis used it. Your assessment of what a swastika is is as open to debate as everyone else’s assessment.
“I saying she never bothered to prove it… ”
Because she said “suggest”, a term that Nina G. Jablonski and George Chaplin also used (and never “bothered to prove” their theory)?
“That human skin color was an evolutionary adaption to climate, sometimes juxtaposed with diet.”
That’s a nice opinion, and how do the two links you provided prove it?
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Uncle Milton….Semantics, pure semantics.
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To Jefe:
And wouldn’t persons in Korea, Hokkaido, and England / Denmark / Norway also have a significant seafood diet? The longevity of modern day Japanese populations is often attributed to their high seafood diet.
Sure reasonable questions…
The theory with Northern Europeans and lighter skin is that they had darker skin (perhaps like someone in Southern Spain..) until around 7,000 to 5,000 years ago when their populations hit a number that no longer supported a diet that was predominantly fish and meat. Possibly the same could apply to Japan, Korea, etc. The other possibility is that the ancestors of modern day British, Norwegians, or Japanese acquired lighter skin (in areas where there was little consumption of fish..) before they reached their respective countries.
http://www.livescience.com/42838-european-hunter-gatherer-genome-sequenced.html
certain higher latitude places for tens of thousands of years (ie, in Tasmania, Tierra del Fuego)
Both groups were hunter-gatherers where they not..? Hence no genetic pressure for skin color to adapt because of a lack of vitamin D.
New Zealand,..
As for New Zealand the Māori are estimated to have arrived in New Zealand less than a thousand years ago and moved from an exclusive hunter gatherer lifestyle around 700 years ago… Not too long on the evolutionary time-frame.
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I have always contemplated how human beings became so different physically, even as a teenager. I always contributed our physical differences to climate, geography, evolution, diet, etc…Yes, just like Uncle Milton pointed out on his last post. However, just because we have evolved physically as a result of our environment does not mean that lighter skin people don’t lack appropriate levels or lower levels of Melanin. And with those lower numbers we may indeed be more likely to be less confident, insecure, paranoid, etc than those people who have higher levels. Regardless of how our skin became lighter the results are still lower levels of Melanin and if Melanin indeed controls chemicals that boost confidence or self esteem then Dr. Welsing may just be right…
2 cents….
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To resw77:
That’s a nice opinion, and how do the two links you provided prove it?
If someone wants to believe as Welsing says, that whites mutated first and then left Africa because of violent Blacks (as in chased from Africa…) or wandered off, that’s their prerogative. Never mind that it flies in the face of evolutionary theory and she didn’t provide any basis for musing.
English term “Semite,” came from the Latin, through the colonisation of Britain by Romans, not Greeks. English obtained close to 30% of its vocabulary this way, FYI. So I don’t see how Welsing is wrong in this regard.
Both the Romans and the Greeks got the word from Hebrew name of one of Noah’s sons in the Torah ….Welsing says the word Semite comes from Latin word semi (in her interpretation half black half white..) it simply does not.
To William the Conqeror:
Welsing has a racist hypothesis… you’re free to embrace it if you so choose..but in her book she has provided erroneous information and unsupported suppositions for her hypothesis.
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Uncle Milton…I only suggested that if these things are true that she may be right or partially right. I hardly think that the word embrace is appropriate for someone who is only speculating theory and who is being objective. You obviously are threatened by such theory and being incredibly defensive. I doubt that I will never know one way or another whether this Melanin theory is true or not but I do know that whether it is true or not I won’t let it control me, melanin or no melanin…
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To William the Conqueror:
You obviously are threatened by such theory..
Nope.. not at all threatened…as her hypotheses have so many wholes..I can’t take her seriously… collectively her ideas carrying as much weight to me as someone like Erich Von Daniken who wrote books in the 1970s about extraterrestrials building pyramids in Eqypt and Mexico. What I find surprising is that people I find generally rational seem to be endorsing her ideas. Post an email address (not your main one..) and I would be happy to email you a copy of her book so that you form your own opinion. I find her basically to be the black equivalent of some of most strident HBD types. The funny thing (well really not at all funny..) is some of her ideas dovetail directly with some of the most nasty white Supremacists out there, as in white Supremacists think blacks are excessively confident (but incompetent…) and violent (as in chased albino whites out of Africa..).
and being incredibly defensive.
How…?
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Uncle Milton…..Even if Melanin does “contribute” to emotional or psychological traits, it is but one of thousands of chemicals, glands, molecules, genes, endorphin’s, etc that help to shape each and every single individual. This is but a discussion based on a Doctors theory regarding one of these components.
Racism by whites against people of color has been difficult to define given there is no clear motive that would warrant such behavior for such an extended and unprecedented length of time, this is why there is so much interest in such a theory regarding this matter. People of color want to know what they have done to deserve so much hatred towards them or why other people’s culture is not acceptable for many white people.
Many whites also want to know why their forefathers and some present whites acted or act in such hideous ways towards others when they themselves do not feel this way. Finding that a chemical, pigment or other influential trait may have something to do with it, gives them something tangible they can build on, maybe give some people a stepping stone towards healing, knowing that, “it isn’t you, it’s me”, may shed some light on the whole damn insidious thing!
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@William and Uncle Milton
I have not finished reading her book so I will refrain from commenting on it too mich, but I don’t set aside a psychological issue with racist whites. According to Jensen it is a deep issue in the minds of whites in general. Melanin may or may not be the cause of it.
@William
You summed up precisely why this has support. People are looking for answers to the questions of why they are hated and demonized.
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Correction much*
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@UM
I read your link. It said
The findings, … also hint that light skin evolved not to adjust to the lower-light conditions in Europe compared with Africa, but instead to the new diet that emerged after the agricultural revolution,
which means that at this stage it is still a hypothesis to explain why evidence tends to suggest blue eyes seemed to have evolved in Europe many millenia before light skin.
Throughout the article, it uses terms such as
“Findings hint”
“Many scientists believe”
“Scientists had assumed”
“DNA shows”
“The discovery may explain”
“The finding implies”
“In the food-production theory”
etc.
That means that scientists have simply made an observation that was not fully consistent with prior assumptions, suggesting that scientists might need to seek another explanation. They offer an explanation that might be more consistent with observations, but it has not yet been fully validated.
Added to that your sentences
“The theory … is that”
“Possibly the same could apply to …”
“The other possibility is that …”
This all suggests that we don’t know the truth yet at all, and still trying to find evidence to support hypothesis. It might be misleading to convey these ideas as any kind of truth yet. The best we can say is “Evidence supports .. .. ”
I do find it interesting, so it would be worthwhile to see where this may all lead.
Further to what WtC said and your reply
Your alternative explanation or belief is also still full of many holes, as we showed above. Despite that it has holes, I do take it seriously. Likewise, we cannot simply dismiss Welsing’s hypotheses simply because it has many holes. There may be some truth in there that calls for further investigation.
Your reaction does seem as if you find it disturbing somehow, if not threatening. It couldn’t simply be due to the fact that it has many holes.
and being incredibly defensive.
How…?
You did indeed come across as very defensive.
There are some truths in Welsing’s assertions that you might even agree to, eg,
– Melanin is a hormone
– It is found in the various quantities among humans
– The brain contains Melanin.
– Hormones in the brain may cause reactions that impact behaviour, thinking, growth, body function
– There is probably a correlation between amounts of melanin in the brain and melanin in other parts of the body.
– Humans do have interpretations of the amounts of melanin in a human body associated with observable traits such as skin colour, eye colour, hair colour,
– No scientist has conclusively proven or disproven the effect of Melanin on the brain.
Just as scientists have looked for explanations why certain humans have blue eyes, have pale skin, or developed agriculture, it may not be any more ridiculous to examine the effect of hormones on humans, including melanin. We look at all sorts of other hormones that impact things such as sexual selection. We cannot rule out a hormonal explanation to why fair complexioned humans develop an aversion (or other emotional reactions) towards darker complexioned humans.
I am not saying that I agree with all or most or even any of Welsing’s main assertions, and even if some of what she said is WRONG or at least unsupported, it is still possible that some of what she says could have elements of truth or reasonable hypotheses that could be investigated. Before we dismiss her as a scientific heretic, maybe we should stop and think
@Sharina,
Obviously I have not read the book. While you are reading it, are you able to decipher where well supported theory is extrapolated into unsupported assertions?
Also, humans can gain or lose melanin with sun contact and most lose melanin as they age. How does that fit in with her theory?
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Correction to the above
“which means that at this stage it is still a hypothesis to explain why evidence tends to suggest blue eyes seemed to have evolved in Europe many millenia before light skin. ”
The article did discuss hypotheses why blue eyes developed millennia before pale skin, but the quote for the article wasn’t about that. My sentence should be
“which means that at this stage it is still a hypothesis to explain why evidence tends to suggest pale skin did not develop due to lower levels of solar radiation in high latitudes, but to changes in diet, in particular from a hunter / gatherer diet to an agriculturally based one”.
I still think this does not really explain very well. We have had agriculture in the tropics and subtropics for many millennia, eg, in the Americas, in tropical Africa, in India, in the Malay archipelago, etc.. Has this caused those populations to lose inheritable melanin?
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Jefe:
Also, humans can gain or lose melanin with sun contact and most lose melanin as they age. How does that fit in with her theory?
It doesn’t come up, nor does the book discuss the wide variety of skin phenotypes within Africa nor the rest of the globe and what the effect those graduations of skin color have on each other. I’ll make the same offer to you as I did to William, post your email address and will send you a copy.
What is your definition of defensive and how does it apply to me…? Does if follow then that people like Abagond being defensive when they mock or critique HBD…?
We have had agriculture in the tropics and subtropics for many millennia, eg, in the Americas, in tropical Africa, in India, in the Malay archipelago, etc.. Has this caused those populations to lose inheritable melanin?
The solar radiation of those areas is much higher than Northern latitudes of Europe or Asia are they not..?
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@Uncle Milton
“Both the Romans and the Greeks got the word from Hebrew name of one of Noah’s sons in the Torah”
LOL. Please direct me to the name “Shem” found in a copy of a torah that predates the invention of the Latin or Greek language. Thanks.
“Welsing says the word Semite comes from Latin word semi (in her interpretation half black half white..) it simply does not.”
In your opinion. The root word of the Latin word “semita” is “sem,” meaning half, which predates the more modern word “Semitic.”
“Never mind that it flies in the face of evolutionary theory and she didn’t provide any basis for musing.”
Your theory has not been proven either, BTW. And it does not account for the fact that people of all skin complexions have been and continue to be produced by dark skinned Africans.
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George Ryder is banned.
More:
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“George Ryder is banned.”
********************************************
Ahhhhhh….. the air here smells appreciably fresher already!
I saw this banning coming months ago, Abagond. I know you have a life off-line, are busy …. but what took you so long?
Do you have a super high tolerance level for deliberate clueless idiots with suspect social/cyber social issues??
At any rate: thank you!
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To resw77:
LOL. Please direct me to the name “Shem” found in a copy of a torah that predates the invention of the Latin or Greek language. Thanks.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Who_is_a_Jew/Types_of_Jews/Semites.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite
The word Shem does not have to predate Latin or Ancient Greek as new words are introduced to language all the time.
As for the Latin word semita, I show it translated as path or highway.
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@UM,
You suggested (based on hypotheses you have read put forth by various parties) that humans lost inheritable melanin through two forces, ie,
– reduction in exposure to solar radiation
– switching from a hunter / gatherer diet to an agrarian diet
It would logically follow that both contribute to loss of inheritable melanin, but the 2nd one is most important as we find dark skinned peoples who had lived in higher latitudes for tens of thousands of years.
Are you saying that high solar radiation more than makes up for diet deficiencies? Such that switching to an agrarian diet in the tropics (or even in the subtropics) will have no effect on inheritable melanin, but it does have an effect at higher latitudes? When I read those articles, it just tossed out the idea of the diet change effect on evolutionary forces.
The skin colour graph suggests that there may be a relationship between latitude and skin colour, but it is far from conclusive. It also doesn’t control for other factors such as diet. And assuming that both natives of the Amazon (at the equator) and of Tasmania (at about 45deg latitude) were both hunter gatherers, why are the Tasmanian natives so much darker?
Note that the people along the southern coast of China, which lies below the tropic of Cancer, are still relatively fair, much fairer than people in central India even though it is not further north and both places have practiced agriculture for many thousands of years.
And it doesn’t address other parts of the body that have melanin, eg, eyes, hair, and organs including the brain.
There must be other explanations. The latitude and diet explanation still does not do a good job. It is still full of holes.
And it goes nowhere in explaining what WtC and Sharina brought up – the hypothesis that a hormone or some physical possibly inheritable element can explain the nature of the emotions and behaviour surrounding white supremacy. Is it possible that such a study is simply not treated seriously by white scientists?
If you are still blind why you are being so defensive, then I am not sure anyone else will be able to explain it to you. WtC tried to explain why such a study that Welsing promoted is not as silly as one might think. Yes, it still might be largely wrong and full of holes, but it is no more silly than the theories in the links you provided. And the main point is that is seeking answers to something else not covered by the train of thought covered in your links.
If you continue to try to respond to any idea by posting new links that don’t really prove anything (and actually are talking about something else) in an effort to discredit Welsing, then YES, you may be viewed as being incredibly defensive.
Do you disagree with Abagond’s take on HBD (BTW, I don’t think he is mocking per se)? If so, then please express that on the relevant thread. I am sure he will welcome discussion on it (and I would like to see your take on it), but he may find it suspect if people start using as a rational explanation for the validation of white supremacy, esp. its most dehumanizing aspects.
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To Jefe:
If you are still blind why you are being so defensive..
Your use of the word defensive does not match the definition in any dictionary I have… “as in very anxious to challenge or avoid criticism” that’s why I asked you to define and apply the usage to me. I don’t see you, William, or Resw77 criticizing me as a person. And.. as I said before I don’t see why my responses differ materially than the multiple discussions that Abagond and others have had towards HBD. It would appear if you are calling me defensive for being highly skeptical of Welsing’s theories then you should also describe Abagond’s behavior as defensive. (Which I would not..)
And it goes nowhere in explaining what WtC and Sharina brought up..
You mean Jensen’s theory about fear of being seen as racist..? By all appearances it’s a societal not a biological response and a recent one at that… 60 years ago and before whites had no problem directly and indirectly expressing their racism to people of color or for that matter people of different ethnic background but similar skin color (Jews come to mind).
And it doesn’t address other parts of the body that have melanin, eg, eyes, hair, and organs including the brain.
If you mean neuromelanin it’s quantity in the brain, at least according to several articles I read is not related to melanin content in the skin. As for eye or hair color as I understand it the genes that produce the color of eyes, hair, and skin are not linked. I could do some reading but I don’t see how it’s very relevant as unlike darker skin in areas with high solar radiation or lighter skin in the converse there is no distinct genetic advantage with lighter hair or eyes.
The map of skin color versus solar radiation does seem to heavily correlated but as you point out there are outliers probably explained by diet or migratory patterns. Skin color adaption based upon environmental factors is supported by evolutionary theory, Welsing’s notion is not.
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In other words, you don’t have any evidence to suggest “Shem” or the torah predates the Latin root “sem.”
“The word Shem does not have to predate Latin or Ancient Greek as new words are introduced to language all the time.”
That is true, but since you’re claiming that Sem comes from Shem, then I’ll concede defeat right now. I can’t argue over a fictitious character from a fairy tale. There is no consensus as to the origin of the word, “semitic” and the most common attribution is to two 18th century Germans who both claim to have coined it despite the fact that the root word Sem has existed many centuries prior.
“As for the Latin word semita, I show it translated as path or highway.”
The root word of semita, however, is “sem,” again, which means half, and there are many suffixes, when combined with sem that produce different words with different meanings.
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@Jefe
Once I read more I will be more than happy to answer your questions.
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@Uncle Milton
“60 years ago and before whites had no problem directly and indirectly expressing their racism to people of color or for that matter people of different ethnic background but similar skin color (Jews come to mind).”—–60 years ago it was likely acceptable too. Now it is seen as a bad thing to be considered or associated with racist. It is like hiding a dirty little secret and every time someone looks at you or calls your name you think you are then caught. I personally feel the Jensen made a good deal of sense.
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To be clear these are my hours and no Jensen’s
“Melanin may or may not be the cause of it.”
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Correction my thoughts and not*
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To Sharina:
60 years ago it was likely acceptable too.
I used time-frame 60 years and before to cover most of the regions and classes of people in the US. As you know in later periods such as the 1960s and even the early 70s you had whites in parts of the US who had no problem expressing racism in front of black people.
Now it is seen as a bad thing to be considered or associated with racist. It is like hiding a dirty little secret and every time someone looks at you or calls your name you think you are then caught. I personally feel the Jensen made a good deal of sense.
Jensen is projecting a little bit but for the most part I agree with the premise. My point in demarcating past behavior by whites versus current behavior is that I don’t see this change as being driven by genetics and I understood that you were not necessarily linking the two.
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@Uncle Milton
There is very little understanding in the scientific community and no consensus on the role, function or even synthesis of neuromelanin. So there’s no way whatsoever to conclude that it “is not related to melanin content in the skin.”
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To Resw77:
So there’s no way whatsoever to conclude that it “is not related to melanin content in the skin.
I read this:
There is no relationship between skin melanin and neuromelanin (Robins, 1991, p. 81)
Also apparently people who have albinism have normal levels of neuromelanin in their brains.
From here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=9rPTPCm9SB0C&pg
But that is from 1991 – 24 years in science is a long time. If you have more recent links on the topic I’ll read them.
Dr. Welsing has said things I can support (even though I don’t agree with the Isis Papers..)
“Dr. Welsing suggested in TheWashington Post that more attention should be paid to “what is happening to Black men, a large segment of whom are in a state of frustration and hopelessness.” Welsing also suggests that African American families must operate more effectively if they are to produce “strong-minded” children who can “challenge” white supremacy. In an interview in Essence magazine, she said “No Black female should have children before the age of 30, and no Black man should become a father before the age of 35. Before child rearing, we should be going to school, going to the library, educating ourselves. We must create mature, mentally developed parents. Then we will be able to produce children with self-respect and a high-level functioning pattern.”
http://blackedcongress.org/speaker-lineup/dr-frances-cress-welsing/
Sounds quite reasonable.. and I go further and say such advice would apply to any race. (At least as far how the US is currently structured..)
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@UM,
That definition is fine. I would expand it to include the definition #5 under dictionary.com:
“excessively concerned with guarding against the real or imagined threat of criticism, injury to one’s ego, or exposure of one’s shortcomings. ”
Maybe that is why WtC suggested that your reaction might be actually supporting some of Welsing’s ideas instead of dismissing them.
I don’t either. I see it more of a concern coming from you similar to the above definition.
No, not at all. I am also highly skeptical of Welsing’s theories. But I am not acting defensive about any position. You have been exceedingly defensive about it. You are beyond skeptical.
and neither would I.
Perhaps to appear less defensive, yet can point out specific assertions from Welsing that you disagree with and why, without imagining that people are attacking your credibility or ego.
I am skeptical, but I admit that I do not know the real answer, and none of the links you provided refuted or disproved it either, ie,
* I am less skeptical of the material you offered (in opposition to Welsing’s assertions), as I know that it enjoys greater support among mainstream scientists, but it is also full of holes and at this point, I can only view it as an interesting theory. Mainstream western (ie, white) scientists have often gotten many things wrong, esp. about race and racism. I remember as a child I read the entire 1951 World Book encyclopedia. Even by the time I read it I knew it was “off”, even as a child of 8 or 9 a couple decades later. I bet the majority of white scientists nowadays simply scoff at the idea that hormones impact white supremacy with no evidence to back up their scoffing.
* It didn’t address many of Welsing’s theories anyhow. Your links focussed on why certain populations have less melanin in their skin, v. alternate theories of how it happened. It did not address at all about any possible biological explanation for the development of white supremacy.
What is likely is that Welsing’s theories have some truth elements and some areas completely off the mark, but as hypotheses to explained observed behavior such as white supremacy, even if she got some of it wrong or inaccurate, it might lead us into areas where we can do more debate and research. Diamond’s Guns, Germs and Steel is also an alternate theory, as is HBD, neither of which are really very scientific.
How do you determine which theories need more debate, discussion and research? and even when people get some “facts” wrong, it doesn’t mean all their conclusions are 100% wrong. Also, even when people have certain facts “right”, it doesn’t mean their conclusions are all correct.
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@Uncle Milton
I am highly aware that there were white people like that and likely some today, but what does that have to do with what Jensen is saying?
I don’t see it as a genetics thing either, but I do see it as something that should be explored in the understanding in why certain whites react that way. Is this fear of being seen as racist a result of guilt? Is it a result of a dark past they refuse to acknowledge Or speak on openly? Is it because they still harbor the same thoughts or ideas their ancestors had that lead to the mistreatment of people of color and likely continued mistreatment?
It could be a psychological issue like depression or multi-personality disorder. If so study for treatment needs to ensue.
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Jefe…..I enjoyed your last post, it was very rational and definitely equitable.
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Abagond’s comment section can be so depressing that it makes you almost want to abandon the blog.
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@Uncle Milton
“I read this: ‘There is no relationship between skin melanin and neuromelanin’ (Robins, 1991, p. 81)”
By far, most studies on neuromelanin have been conducted within the last 15-20 years. And even still, there is very little understanding or consensus about its synthesis. So how you could possibly think that Robins knew enough about it in 1991 to make that determination is ludicrous.
“Also apparently people who have albinism have normal levels of neuromelanin in their brains.”
“Normal” is subject to debate without standards for purposes of comparison. Especially when the source of evidence is a 1958 study. We’ve learned so much more since then, and still don’t agree on synthesis.
“If you have more recent links on the topic I’ll read them.”
There’s an abundance of research that’s been conducted since 1991. And all you have to do is a simple Google search.
But here’s a statement from an abstract in 1997: “There is currently NO general agreement on the enzymatic basis of neuromelanin synthesis. ” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9353954
But more important, they state: “Our group was the first to demonstrate enzymatic peroxidase activity in brain, which was subsequently confirmed by three other laboratories.” If that’s were true, then it could possibly refute Robins. Either way, Robins’ conclusion is completely without justification.
“Dr. Welsing has said things I can support”
Honestly, I could care less whether you agree with anything she said or not. My position has always been that Welsing is a professional who’s well qualified to render an opinion about behavioural science and psychiatry. Whether or not you agree with her opinions, does not make Welsing a “quack,” or her work “crapola,” “crazy” or all the other denigrating words people have used in this thread. It’s prejudice–plain and simple.
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To Resw77:
My position has always been that Welsing is a professional who’s well qualified to render an opinion about behavioural science and psychiatry.
As to her discussion in regards to the effects of racism towards blacks by whites and the degree to which it affects their mental health, her opinion may indeed be valid. But as to her opinion of whites and their genetics origins and albinism her conjecture is not substantiated by modern evolutionary science, physical anthropology or genetics. Consider the case of James Watson, a Nobel prize winner and co-discoverer of DNA, much of Watson’s work is brilliant but that does not mean he wasn’t capable of making invalid nutty statements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Watson#Provocative_comments
Thanks, I did a search for albinism and neuromelanin so the results were limited and as I acknowledged potentially dated, however the link you provided supports my point .. neuromelanin in the brain is not linked to melanin levels in the skin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9353954
There is currently no general agreement on the enzymatic basis of neuromelanin synthesis. It is generally agreed that neuromelanin synthesis must differ from melanin synthesis in skin, since “tyrosinase” (aerobic dopa oxidase) is not present in brain.
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as I check in on this post
I’ve become used to and even expect the contentious and somewhat adversarial nature of communication on this topic.
However this is a public forum and in regards to any issue particularly this one ,
I view it as a form of peer review , noting that this differs from a true professional peer review in the traditional sense.
Also size is a important factor as well ,not so large as to be unmanageable and not so small as to go unnoticed and responded to.
Also in terms of motivation and knowledge
this post has motivated me to delve into a resource I was neglecting ,namely
in order to understand this work among many other topics posted here
it would help to have knowledge and familiarity with the sciences,
physics chemistry biology sociology psychology and a few of their sub-disciplines.
And I’ve therefore availed myself of the vast library of textbooks available for download for free on these subjects.
One other note ,the term pseudoscience has been used here and in other places and its highly likely we will see it again here – however there is a book (among many) that I’m currently reading named “http://www.amazon.com/Great-Myths-Brain-Psychology/dp/1118312716
which indicated that the refutation method is more effective to learning than traditional methods.
And as in regard to this post ,I was and still am amazed at the range of subjects Dr.welsings covered to formulate her theory (still should have said and it is but a hypothesis), history (ancient and modern) ,biology (genetics,sexual reproduction,etc) sociology and of course various fields of psychology.
And while many fault her conclusions and methods ,her intentions seem sincere – to provide a comprehensive explanation of the phenomena of racism and assisting black people in dealing with it.
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To Sharina:
I am highly aware that there were white people like that and likely some today, but what does that have to do with what Jensen is saying?
I was just suggesting it’s learned behavior.
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^^^Okay. I gotcha.
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Jefe:
I bet the majority of white scientists nowadays simply scoff at the idea that hormones impact white supremacy with no evidence to back up their scoffing.
There are plenty of accomplished scientists who aren’t white and at least in California for at least the past 10 years the majority of MD and (Biochem, Chemistry) Phd graduates haven’t been white. And as you probably know India,Korea,and China also conduct medical research, so the world is not limited to the opinion of white scientists or doctors.
why, without imagining that people are attacking your credibility or ego…
Appears to be a red herring but I’ll respond…
I’m an anonymous guy on the internet who’s been posting on Abagond’s site for years. If I was worried about my credibility or ego here I would have left a long time ago. Believe what you wish about me.. it’s your prerogative.
point out specific assertions from Welsing that you disagree with and why…
I already have in multiple posts.. presumably don’t agree with me. Once again your prerogative.
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@Uncle Milton
“her opinion may indeed be valid. But as to her opinion of whites and their genetics origins and albinism her conjecture is not substantiated by modern evolutionary science, physical anthropology or genetics”
That’s so funny because you have quoted someone else (Robins) who did not have his opinion “substantiated” either. Why the difference in treatment with the black woman? Is it your prejudice, or because you just don’t like what she said?
Furthermore, you seem to believe that there’s a correct and incorrect answer for the origins of pale non-Africans and that somehow Welsing is wrong. Well let me inform you again: your theory has not been proven either.
One thing Welsing is 100% correct about is the occurence of dark skinned producing offspring of lighter complexions. Your theory that light skin non-Africans have their origins outside of Africa is much more outlandish and is purely conjecture.
“still should have said and it is but a hypothesis”
I think if you actually read her book in its entirety, including the Introduction, you wouldn’t have said that.
“neuromelanin in the brain is not linked to melanin levels in the skin”
My emphasis was on peroxidase, but since 1997 it has also been suggested that tyrosinase is present in the brain.
See the 1998 study entitled “New evidence for presence of tyrosinase in substantia nigra [i.e., neuromelanin], forebrain and midbrain”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9473705
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To resw77:
Your theory that light skin non-Africans have their origins outside of Africa is much more outlandish and is purely conjecture.
No.. I never said such a thing.. I firmly believe that all humans have their ancestral origins in Africa. What I said was the phenotype variations in skin color are strongly correlated to environment and that humans migrated out of Africa, settled around the globe, and over time adapted to their environments.
Is it your prejudice, or because you just don’t like what she said?
Neither..I just think she provided very poor or no support for her claims.
That’s so funny because you have quoted someone else (Robins) who did not have his opinion “substantiated” either.
Well the book apparently was peer reviewed and published by a University press.. but since you provided a link affirming my statement.. it’s a moot issue.
M comment:
“neuromelanin in the brain is not linked to melanin levels in the skin”
Your response:
My emphasis was on peroxidase, but since 1997 it has also been suggested that tyrosinase is present in the brain.
See the 1998 study entitled “New evidence for presence of tyrosinase in substantia nigra [i.e., neuromelanin], forebrain and midbrain”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9473705
Perhaps I am not understanding you but I don’t see these two statements as contradictory.
I didn’t find any articles tying varying neuromelanin levels to race but there seems to be ample evidence that neuromelanin increases as one ages.
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To resw77:
I looked at the who quote again..
There is currently no general agreement on the enzymatic basis of neuromelanin synthesis. It is generally agreed that neuromelanin synthesis must differ from melanin synthesis in skin, since “tyrosinase” (aerobic dopa oxidase) is not present in brain.”
I see your point now although I did read that the levels of tyrosinase in the brain is markedly lower than in skin cells…my OCD at work.. I’ll read further.
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@UM
Yes, EXACTLY.
I have seen you on this blog for years and I did take you for an anonymous guy who had no worry about his credibility or ego. This is why I generally enjoy seeing your presence here. That is also why I was a bit surprised, if not shocked at how you reacted to this particular topic. It is though this topic suddenly hit a nerve that caused you to be very defensive (unlike how you behaved in most other threads).
Is there a reason why the ideas in this topic caused a more intense reaction than other topics?
BTW, regarding your tit for tat oscillation with resw77, both sides of the discussions are just theories anyway and both are full of holes. Admittedly there is more scientific support for some of what you assert, but since it does not paint a full picture, it is not folly to consider other possibilities (which are still not as well supported). Also, Welsing is a psychiatrist, so she would look for solutions that would help her in her work. Although a theory may not be well supported, it still might be of use in her clinical work. Alternate theories which may enjoy wider mainstream support might be useless in that area.
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“It is though this topic suddenly hit a nerve that caused you to be very defensive (unlike how you behaved in most other threads). ”
Almost all of Abagond’s blog does this to some white people, its as if any question or criticism of whiteness or the treatment received by poc from white people general is a attack or counter attack – which it is and should be , I think in general cosmology its called no matter how much power and/or status you have or think you have ,you can’t get away with it.
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^^^^agree in full.
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Quack, resw77. I’ve spent some time reading what she and other proponents of melanin theory have written, and it’s such obvious rubbish I’m surprised you are willing to give it any credence.
“On both St. Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day, the white male gives gifts of chocolate candy with nuts…. If his sweetheart ingests “chocolate with nuts,” the white male can fantasize that he is genetically equal to the Black male”
I mean, really. If we give chocolate at all it’s because most women love chocolate, with or without nuts, and most don’t associate everything brown with black males. That’s navel gazing to the extreme on her part.
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@Uncle Milton
“What I said was the phenotype variations in skin color are strongly correlated to environment and that humans migrated out of Africa”
And again, that’s an unfounded theory. A fact is that dark-skinned Africans have produced offspring of various skin complexions.
“Perhaps I am not understanding you but I don’t see these two statements as contradictory.”
Perhaps you didn’t see that the 1998 study directly contradicts the 1997 study, since the former suggests ““New evidence for presence of tyrosinase in substantia nigra [i.e., neuromelanin], forebrain and midbrain””
@jefe
“BTW, regarding your tit for tat oscillation with resw77, both sides of the discussions are just theories anyway and both are full of holes.”
And keep in mind that I did not say which is right or wrong and have maintained there is “no consensus” and all these are just hypotheses and theories at best.
“Admittedly there is more scientific support for some of what you assert”
Such as what? He hasn’t said one thing that has more “scientific support” than anything Welsing asserts.
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@Joshua
In fact, she’s not a quack, because she is trained and qualified to render an opinion in psychiatry and behavioural science. If she were untrained and unqualified, then “quack” might be appropriate. Just because Welsing’s work hurts your feelings and is hard for you to comprehend doesn’t make her a “quack.”
“I’m surprised you are willing to give it any credence.”
I’m surprised you’re making such a statement when I have never displayed support for any of her theories.
“That’s navel gazing to the extreme on her part.”
She wouldn’t be the first psychiatrist to suggest there are subconscious reasons why people behave in a certain way. You’re treating her differently because her opinions make you feel bad. You’re a little too emotional.
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Just because she says somethings one might not agree with or that sounds “crazy” does not mean everything she says is crazy.
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@sharinalr
You can see that Joshua is desperately trying to discredit her by erroneously calling her a “quack.” It’s nothing but prejudice/racism/sexism, etc.
By definition, a “quack” is “a pretender to medical skill” (Merriam-Webster) or “a person who dishonestly claims to have special knowledge and skill in some field, typically in medicine” (Oxford).
Neither of these definitions applies to Welsing, because she IS a psychiatrist who is licensed to practise and qualified to render such an opinion. She’s not pretending or dishonestly claiming some skill/knowledge she doesn’t have.
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@resw77
What I find odd is how her theory has upset people. Why so bothered by this supposed “quack”? I just hope they realize that saying she is “crazy” or a “quack” is not actually discrediting what she is saying in the slightest.
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To Resw77:
Such as what? He hasn’t said one thing that has more “scientific support” than anything Welsing asserts.
Ummm, gene flow, fossil records, many thousands of peer reviewed books and papers…
And again, that’s an unfounded theory. A fact is that dark-skinned Africans have produced offspring of various skin complexions.
So it would seem the notion of genetic annihilation of whites.. by black people is false… since black people can randomly generate white people…
Ok.. so to my black brethren.. next time you create white folks.. please…no more of these:
And may I suggest more of these:
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@Uncle Milton
“Ummm, gene flow, fossil records, many thousands of peer reviewed books and papers…”
LOL. None of that supports any theory you have asserted on this thread.
“So it would seem the notion of genetic annihilation of whites.. by black people is false… since black people can randomly generate white people…”
No it’s not “false.” According to Welsing, white fear of genetic annihilation is from what whites have observed as the consequences of interracial mixture, e.g., Barrack Obama being considered “black” by American standards even though his mother is white. Her observations of segregation in the US (and perhaps apartheid in South Africa and elsewhere) is an example of said fear.
But, dark-skinned people being able to “randomly generate” people of various skin complexions is a fact of life, means there will always be people with lighter complexions. But of course these would not be so-called “white” people, are they?
“Ok.. so to my black brethren.. next time you create white folks.. please…no more of these”
You say on one hand “I firmly believe that all humans have their ancestral origins in Africa” but then hypocritically make a mockery of it with a comment like that. So which one is it? Do you “firmly believe” or do you doubt it?
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@sharinalr
“What I find odd is how her theory has upset people. ”
It upsets them so much because if melanin serves a useful purpose, any useful purpose, then they feel a sense of inadequacy.
We know that it helps protect against harmful UV rays, and that’s why it’s so important for people on this thread to maintain that light skin developed outside of Africa due to environmental adaptation. It makes them feel evolved instead of inadequate. I’m not saying Uncle Milton’s theory is incorrect, I’m only stating the truth, which is that it’s still unproven, contrary to his suggestion otherwise.
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To resw77:
You say on one hand “I firmly believe that all humans have their ancestral origins in Africa” but then hypocritically make a mockery of it with a comment like that. So which one is it? Do you “firmly believe” or do you doubt it?
I have already described how I think.. whites, east Asians, etc.. came to have light or lighter colored skin than Africans.. movement out of Africa, then adaption to various environments.. no contradiction… and yeah there is plenty of scientific basis for this.. but perhaps yes…black people randomly generated whites:
If so please no more of these:
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To resw77:
Her observations of segregation in the US (and perhaps apartheid in South Africa and elsewhere) is an example of said fear.
Didn’t she say the original white flight was black Africans chasing whites out of Africa..? (ok she did also say they may have wandered out..one or the other flip a coin).
It upsets them so much because if melanin serves a useful purpose, any useful purpose, then they feel a sense of inadequacy.
Indeed:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjFvrZynYaw)
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To resw77:
It upsets them so much because if melanin serves a useful purpose, any useful purpose…
Ummm… nope.. high levels melanin in the skin clearly protects against skin cancer, genetic damage, and folate deficiency in areas with high solar radiation.
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/skin-color/modern-human-diversity-skin-color
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@Uncle Milton
“and yeah there is plenty of scientific basis for this”
What proof do you have that light skin developed outside of Africa independently?
“but perhaps yes…black people randomly generated whites”
I didn’t make that claim. Black and white are social concepts. The FACT is that dark-skinned people have produced people of various complexions. Are you seriously doubting this fact?
“Ummm… nope.. high levels melanin in the skin clearly protects against ”
In case you missed it, I already stated, “We know that it helps protect against harmful UV rays”. What’s your point?
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To resw77:
I didn’t make that claim.
Francis Welsing made that claim….
What’s your point?….
It upsets them so much because if melanin serves a useful purpose, any useful purpose
Well clearly.. I do see uses for high levels of melanin in the skin… in environments where it is beneficial…
The FACT is that dark-skinned people have produced people of various complexions.
Ok.. if you want to own it:
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@Uncle Milton
“Francis Welsing made that claim….”
Where did Welsing say “black people randomly generated whites?” I think she recognised the fact that Africans produced albino offspring.
“Well clearly..”
So first it was “Ummm… nope..” So why the sudden change of heart?
“I do see uses for high levels of melanin in the skin… in environments where it is beneficial…”
LOL. There’s the “environment” argument again. The sun shines in every environment, so there is universal benefit.
“Ok.. if you want to own it”
So again, are you really doubting that dark-skinned people have produced people of lighter complexions?
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To resw77
Where did Welsing say “black people randomly generated whites?” I think she recognised the fact that Africans produced albino offspring.
Here’s her quote from the book:
The first albino mutations ( whites ) were produced from Blacks in Africa. These albinos, I suggest were chased North by the Blacks
or wandered North away from the intense sun so that they could survive.
Albinos can be of any race.. but the genes that cause albinism are not the same as the genes that cause white people to have relatively lighter skin.
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To resw77:
So again, are you really doubting that dark-skinned people have produced people of lighter complexions?
Most assuredly dark-skinned people can produce albinos which are not the same as white Europeans…
but if you want to own this:
Go for it…
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@Uncle Milton
“Here’s her quote from the book”
So she did not say “black people randomly generated whites” and as I stated, “I think she recognised the fact that Africans produced albino offspring” is correct.
“but the genes that cause albinism are not the same as the genes that cause white people to have relatively lighter skin.”
Really? Prove it. The only thing we know is that skin complexion is a function of melanin production.
“Most assuredly dark-skinned people can produce albinos which are not the same as white Europeans”
I didn’t say they were the same. I asked a simple question.
“but if you want to own this”
So are you suggesting that “white Europeans” are not descendants of Africans? Otherwise what is your point?
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@resw77
She has been through training, yes. Apparently it didn’t take. She’s a quack. Lot’s of MDs are quacks, but most don’t advertise the fact as widely as she does. Her very words condemn her as a quack, and I don’t need to refute her silliness any more than I need to prove god doesn’t exist.
Does she upset me? Heck no. I grow all the melanin I can use when I need it. Most people, including most whites, can. The difference is our cells don’t express it when it isn’t needed. Albinos CAN’T, which is why whites are not albinos. The two things are completely unrelated and only a quack would try to drag them together.
Now, light skin obviously evolved. The question is, was it positive mutation in response to a change in environment, or was it a mutation that carried no harmful affects in the population in which it occurred? It must be one or the other – that’s how evolution works. In the second case I would not expect it to have proliferated against dark skin if dark skin were dominate genetically. In the first case I would. So, you can choose between it proliferating as a result of an environmental change, or you can accept that dark skin is no more dominate than anything else. I really don’t care which.
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To resw77:
Really? Prove it. The only thing we know is that skin complexion is a function of melanin production.
Plenty of research on albinism… search the internet… you don’t have to believe any of it.. your prerogative…
LOL. There’s the “environment” argument again. The sun shines in every environment, so there is universal benefit…
And annual solar radiation is the same in all environments… ? Yeah that’s why white people go to Northern Scotland to get a tan…
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@Joshua
Obviously you don’t know the meaning of a quack, you haven’t read Welsing’s work, and you don’t understand the purpose of melanin.
The only reason you’re still trying so hard to discredit Welsing is because she hurt your feelings. Get over it.
@Uncle Milton
“Plenty of research on albinism… search the internet… ”
Right, and the research suggests it is a function of melanin production, not environmental adaptation.
NIH says:
“Albinism occurs when one of several genetic defects makes the body unable to produce or distribute melanin, a natural substance that gives color to your hair, skin, and iris of the eye.”
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001479.htm
It doesn’t say albinism occurs when you move to Europe and eat different food, now does it?
” Yeah that’s why white people go to Northern Scotland to get a tan…”
Newsflash, the sun shines in Northern Scotland too. And one can “tan” on a summer day when the sun is out and shining for as many as 17.5 hours per day.
Scotland also has a high rate of melanoma, and NOT because Scots all go sunbathing in Africa:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-12978301
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@Joshua
Her own words allows you to render the opinion that she is a quack, but it does not mean she actually is one. Of course you don’t need to refute what she says, but I could call you a quack by your standards and it would thus be true. Even with my lack of basis for doing so.
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To resw77:
It doesn’t say albinism occurs when you move to Europe and eat different food, now does it?
No it does not.. and neither did I.. as Europeans aren’t albinos.
Newsflash, the sun shines in Northern Scotland too.
But not with intensity of places closer to the equator.. are you really arguing that there aren’t marked differences in solar radiation around the globe and that it generally declines as one moves away from the equator?
Scotland also has a high rate of melanoma, and NOT because Scots all go sunbathing in Africa
The favored destination for Scots is Spain – intense bursts of solar radiation on holiday.
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@Uncle Milton
“No it does not.. and neither did I.. as Europeans aren’t albinos.”
Playing games I see. Skin complexion is a function of melanin, be one “albino” or not. NIH says: “Melanin is a natural substance that gives color (pigment) to hair, SKIN, and the iris of the eye. It is produced by cells in the skin called melanocytes.” http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002256.htm
If you’re refuting this, where’s your reference?
“are you really arguing that there aren’t marked differences in solar radiation…”
That’s just something you brought up as a diversion in response to my statement, “The sun shines in every environment, so there is universal benefit” of melanin. Are you really arguing that melanin has no benefit in Northern Scotland?
“The favored destination for Scots is Spain”
LOL. Here you are making up stuff because you are in denial of basic facts. And if you read the article, you’d see that it was mainly concerning young Scots, who more than likely don’t go to Spain on holiday. And far more Scots go to Scottish beaches on holiday anyway.
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To resw77:
If you’re refuting this, where’s your reference?
I am not.. what I said was albinism is not the cause of the relatively lighter skin of Europeans. (But there are Europeans albinos..)
“The sun shines in every environment, so there is universal benefit” of melanin. Are you really arguing that melanin has no benefit in Northern Scotland?
Are you arguing that indigenous Scots don’t have melanin?
concerning young Scots, who more than likely don’t go to Spain on holiday.
I definitely know plenty of Scots who go on holiday to Spain.. but there are other options:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10003238
“Glasgow has been described as Britain’s sunbed capital because of the number of salons there and the number of people who use them.”
And far more Scots go to Scottish beaches on holiday anyway.
Uhh dude, yeah Scottish beaches can be beautiful and nice to walk on but as a regular destination for sun bathers..? Not really. Although I suspect you will pull up some photos of Ayr beach (one of the southern most beaches in Scotland) a few years ago when the area had unusually warm weather. One of the warmest beach areas in Scotland, Ayr beach average high are than 65 degree Fahrenheit in July, the warmest months.
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@Uncle Milton
“what I said was albinism is not the cause of the relatively lighter skin of Europeans”
I’m not that forgetful. What you said was “but the genes that cause albinism are not the same as the genes that cause white people to have relatively lighter skin,” to which I responded, “Prove it. The only thing we know is that skin complexion is a function of melanin production.”
Again, are you doubting this? If so, where’s your reference?
“Are you arguing that indigenous Scots don’t have melanin?”
Wow, you’re really reaching. So you couldn’t answer my original question, “Are you really arguing that melanin has no benefit in Northern Scotland?”
“I definitely know plenty of Scots who go on holiday to Spain..”
So where’s your proof that the reported rise in melanoma in Scotland is caused by holidays in Spain?
“Glasgow has been described as Britain’s sunbed capital”
And if you read the article I posted, the interviewee with melanoma did not use sunbeds or go sunbathing: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-12978301
“Scottish beaches can be beautiful and nice to walk on but as a regular destination for sun bathers..? ”
LOL. Now, it’s clear you’re in denial and/or clearly don’t know much about Scotland.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sunbathers-sizzle-32c-temperatures-beach-2071625
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To resw77:
LOL. Now, it’s clear you’re in denial and/or clearly don’t know much about Scotland. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sunbathers-sizzle-32c-temperatures-beach-2071625
I stated you would pull out an unusual weather event to suggest that this is a common occurrence and you rose to the occasion. My maternal grandparents were Scots, I visited my family in Scotland on average every three years between from the age of 8 till my mid 30s, almost always in the summer. Sun bathing on the Scottish beaches is not that common.I am sure you will come back with another pedantic retort.
Prove it.
There is plenty of research on the internet describing the causes of albinism. Accept or reject it at you leisure.
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@Uncle Milton
I will respond in better detail once my sedative wears off, but it appears you are simply playing a mental game here. What resw77 chooses to do to prove a point or not does not make what he says less wrong because you “predicted” it.
Also you stated “Although I suspect you will pull up some photos of Ayr beach (one of the southern most beaches in Scotland) a few years ago when the area had unusually warm weather.” to an extent you are actually wrong, but it also indication you have an assumed idea of his responses and are not listening anyway.
Do you assume nothing has changed in Scotland since you visited last in your 30s?
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To Sharina:
Do you assume nothing has changed in Scotland since you visited last in your 30s?
If you have followed my posts you know that my 30s passed me by some time ago… have things changed in Scotland since then.. most assuredly.. but has the weather become appreciably more sunny….I am sure many Scots wish it were so.. as complaining about the gloomy weather is a national pastime but unfortunately Scottish weather still mostly sucks.
This comes back my assertion that solar radiation tends to decrease as one moves away from the equator, do you disagree with this..? Hashing over tanning in Scotland (whether it is from tanning booths, Spanish holidays, or the occasional trip to sun bath on a Scottish beach when it happens to be sunny and warm enough to comfortably wear a bathing…) is a pedantic response to my statement about white people going to Northern Scotland to get a tan.
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@Uncle Milton
“I stated you would pull out an unusual weather event to suggest that this is a common occurrence and you rose to the occasion. ”
Irrelevant. You’re the one who said people don’t sunbathe on Scottish beaches.
Even without sunbathing, I pointed to an article about a Scot with melanoma who did not sunbathe or use tanning beds. Remember? http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-12978301
For the third time, are you denying the benefit of melanin in Scotland? If not, what’s your point?
“There is plenty of research on the internet describing the causes of albinism. ”
And none of them proves your theory that “the genes that cause albinism are not the same as the genes that cause white people to have relatively lighter skin.” The only thing we know is that melanin affects skin color, albino or not. Are you denying this?
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Resw77 and Sharinar,
Just like all the people that believe in creationism and think the people working on it with degrees are really scientists, you are free to believe that she isn’t a quack. I really don’t care. Neither do real scientists. She isn’t given any credence in scientific circles but you’re free to endorse her silliness, which you both do whether you see it or not every time you defend it.
Hurt my feelings? Heh! I’m not as thin skinned as you are if that’s the case.
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@resw77
They aren’t the same genes. Whites are not albinos. They produce melanin, just not as much when not exposed to the sun. Albinos don’t produce melanin. They can’t. Different gene.
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To resw77:
You’re the one who said people don’t sunbathe on Scottish beaches.
Nope, I said it is not common… what this all comes back to is my statement that solar radiation tends to decrease as one moves away from the equator.. (insert other variables if you choose.. cloud or tree cover… elevation..) and skin color (and the historical presence in a given environment..) tends to correlate strongly with levels of solar radiation. The theory that the skin color of an indigenous people to a given environment (and the length of time their ancestors have been in that environment..) has been generally accepted as evolutionary knowledge for many years. You don’t have to accept that at all.. that’s your prerogative.
For the third time, are you denying the benefit of melanin in Scotland?
Nope..look at the articles I posted about melanin production versus solar radiation.. you don’t have to accept them but I consider the evidence and theory presented as valid.
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To resw77:
If you live in higher latitudes and don’t get out in the sun much, for your own health and the health of other people you know with darker skin you should monitor your vitamin D levels especially as you get older. (And yes this can affect white people but generally not as much..) This is even more critical with pregnant and nursing women.
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/features/the-truth-about-vitamin-d-why-you-need-vitamin-d
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She’s a quack:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magic_melanin_spreading_scientific_illiteracy_among_minorities
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@Uncle Milton
” what this all comes back to is my statement that solar radiation tends to decrease as one moves away from the equator”
Not necessarily, and as I stated, there is “universal benefit” to melanin as the sun shines globally, including in Scotland where people get melanoma without sunbathing or using tanning beds.
“look at the articles I posted about melanin production versus solar radiation.. ”
You didn’t post any evidence that suggests that skin colour is not a function of melanin production.
“If you live in higher latitudes and don’t get out in the sun much..”
The sun is not the only way to absorb vitamin D, for one, and for two, there are also areas near the equator, in the Malabo, for example that experience lower solar irradiance levels than places farther north (or south).
Although the link you provided says “This [osteoperosis] is a particular problem for African-Americans in the northern U.S.” the fact is that osteoperosis affects white and Asian-American women far more than African-Americans. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3111798/
Therefore, that’s not evidence that blacks need more vitamin d than anyone else, and quite frankly, is irrelevant to the discussion (like everything else you keep throwing in).
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The Human Body does not produce vitamin D so every person needs to get it from outside sources. People from Africa have VERY HIGH levels of vitamin D. It is only those people who migrate away from Africa that assume a vitamin D deficiency, unless they move to and expose themselves to, a sunny climate, such as Texas, Arizona, etc…and no one wants to live in those antiquated back-ass-ward states, except for a shit load of Uncle Miltons….
Here is an exert from Skin Cancer.org……www.skincancer.org/skin-cancer…/can-darker-skin….Most skin cancers are associated with ultraviolet (UV) radiation from the sun or tanning beds, and many people of color are less susceptible to UV damage thanks to the greater amounts of melanin (the protective pigment that gives skin and eyes their color) darker skin produces.
Here is an exert from Public/Med . Gov
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11936268…..
Abstract
We have examined the quantity and composition of melanin in both photoprotected (volar upper arm) and chronically photoexposed (dorsal forearm) skin from a range of different ethnic skin types including African, Indian, Mexican, Chinese and European. The most lightly pigmented (European, Chinese and Mexican) skin types have approximately half as much epidermal melanin as the most darkly pigmented (African and Indian) skin types. However, the composition of melanin in these lighter skin types is comparatively more enriched with lightly coloured, alkali-soluble melanin components (up to three-fold). Regardless of ethnicity, epidermal melanin content is significantly greater in chronically photoexposed skin than it is in corresponding photoprotected skin (up to two-fold). However, by comparison there is only a modest enrichment of lightly coloured, alkali soluble melanin components in photoprotected skin (up to 1.3-fold). Analysis of melanosomes extracted from the epidermis in these subjects indicates that the proportion of spheroidal melanosomes is low in all skin types examined (<10%). This suggests that in human skin, pheomelanin is a very minor component of epidermal melanin, even in the lightest (European) skin types. Analysis of melanosome size revealed a significant and progressive variation in size with ethnicity: African skin having the largest melanosomes followed in turn by Indian, Mexican, Chinese and European. On the basis of these findings, we propose that variation in skin pigmentation is strongly influenced by both the amount and the composition (or colour) of the melanin in the epidermis. Variation in melanosome size may also play a significant role. However, the data also suggest that in human skin there are subtle differences in the mechanisms associated with the maintenance of constitutive pigmentation and facultative hyperpigmentation, respectively.
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@Joshua
A quack is Bernard Ortiz De Montellano in the link you posted. He is not a medical doctor like Welsing, nor a behavioural scientist like Welsing, so his opinion of Welsing, melanin, or its psychiatric effects is pure quackery, like your opinion.
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Aww, it just crushes me that you think my opinions about a crank pseudo-scientist quack-doctor like Welsing is quackery. Enjoy your “education”. You get what you pay for.
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resw77, you seem to pride yourself on intentionally missing Uncle Milton’s points. Or maybe you just get them.
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@Joshua
LOL, yes, I thought it was hella funny that you were calling a real MD and psychiatrist a quack by citing a fake doctor’s opinion. You’re hilarious!
“you seem to pride yourself on intentionally missing Uncle Milton’s points.”
You seem to pride yourself on not knowing what you’re talking about.
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She might be a “real MD and psychiatrist”, she’s also a quack. She gets called out for being a quack by a REAL scientists, like Ortiz de Montellano . As she should.
I think you’re hilarious defending such obvious rubbish. And it is quite obvious. You’re exactly who Bernard Ortiz De Montellano was concerned about in his article.
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LOL. Welsing is qualified to speak about psychiatry and behavioural science. Bernard Ortiz De Montellano is not qualified. He is the dictionary definition of a quack, without any medical training, without any relevant qualifications. Pure quackery.
Are you really so desperate to prove a point that you’d use a quack in a sad attempt to call a real doctor a quack?
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Joshua
I have yet to state what I believe of her beyond what she has stated, but I generally try to avoid calling people names because it is convenient. Especially someone who has higher credentials than I. As such let’s try asking me what I think of her next time before assuming Okay?
Also I have done little more than point out that YOU sir are not refuting anything she says by calling her names. If that is an all out defense of her then perhaps you need rethink that idea or we could take that same logic and imply that you are bothered by her based on your repeated name calling and nothing more?
At any rate what I said still stands. You have your opinion of her but an opinion is like an A*** hole….you may know the rest.
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@Uncle Milton
I was aware you were older only by your avatar, but my question was referring to when you were in your 30s. They were not saying I believe you were in them now or recently.
“This comes back my assertion that solar radiation tends to decrease as one moves away from the equator, do you disagree with this..?”—-I don’t remember saying I did not agree, but in order to clear up confusion I agree. Though I agree weather is fickle and over the years I have seen warmer winters. Hotter summers etc. I will admit that I am not qualified to speak on weather in Scotland.
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@resw77
He’s a scientist, and follows the scientific method. He has every reason to call her out as an incompetent purveyor of pseudo-science, a quack. Welsing is apparently not competent to speak about anything if this is what she makes up with her limited abilities. It’s certainly funny that you have such respect not only for the medical profession, but of the pure quacks embedded within, and there are a lot of them. She’s one. You’re one of the minorities being fed pseudo-science. Happy eating.
@sharinalr, there is plenty to read on the internet about her quackery, Some I’ve posted here. Some others have posted it as well. Look it up if you want to participate. You might think you’re adopting the high ground but in reality you’re defending the indefensible, “theories” just as bogus, racist, and silly (if not more so) than those that made the rounds the first half of the last century and before. Her degrees mean nothing in the face of the silliness she writes. She might as well have got them from a Cracker Jack’s box for all the evidence of them in her crayon scribblings. And yes, I have a scientific education and degrees from two of the top ten science schools in the country, so again, her degrees don’t carry much weight in the face of sheer looniness with me. It’s just funny that Abagond would sink to such depths for an article.
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@sharinalr
Weather doesn’t affect solar radiation levels on average unless the percentage of cloud cover significantly increases. Temperature doesn’t matter – the Himalyas at sub-zero are an excellent place for anyone to get a bad sunburn and they’re in the tropics.
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@Joshua
Lucky for you I did not say the temperature did matter.
The closer or further away an area is to the equator does affect the intensity or lack of in regards to solar radiation does it not?
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@sharinalr
Lucky for me? You kinda implied it by mentioning warmer winters and hotter summers, and then talked about the weather in Scotland. I was pointing out that in context none of those really matter.
Yes the distance from the equator then altitude are the biggest factors assuming similar cloud cover. Used to get the hell burned out of my face skiing very high in the winter even way north.
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To Sharina:
I was aware you were older only by your avatar, but my question was referring to when you were in your 30s.
Unfortunately none of the men in my avatar are still alive, my father was the last of them to pass away. The photo dates from WWII, three were Jewish (albeit my father converted to Christianity) and one was black, all of them were from or grew up in the Midwest.
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To William the Conqueror:
such as Texas, Arizona, etc…and no one wants to live in those antiquated back-ass-ward states, except for a shit load of Uncle Miltons….
Heh,.. I’ve been living on the West coast of the US for more than 30 years…I find Texas (even Austin) and Arizona boring.
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To Sharina:
I don’t remember saying I did not agree, but in order to clear up confusion I agree.
I was pretty sure you hadn’t, I was just restating my original premise, the Scottish tanning debate was a rather tangential issue. (Waiting for Abagond to come along and say: Scottish tanning is off topic)
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To resw77:
And if you read the article I posted, the interviewee with melanoma did not use sunbeds or go sunbathing: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-12978301
I doubt you believe that white people don’t lie or stretch the truth. Her comments: I’ve never been particularly into sunbathing, and don’t use sunbeds, so to be told I had malignant melanoma was completely shocking. She could have been stretching the truth, embarrassed that her actions caused to come down with cancer at an early age. The word particularly has a bit of a fudge factor.
Regardless melanoma is not always caused by sun exposure.
http://blackdoctor.org/1399/why-blacks-have-higher-melanoma-mortality-rates/
The sun is not the only way to absorb vitamin D, for one
Yes… the articles I posted regarding adaption and the evolution of skin color covered this….
and for two, there are also areas near the equator, in the Malabo, for example that experience lower solar irradiance levels than places farther north (or south).
Yes and my full statement regarding solar radiation was “what this all comes back to is my statement that solar radiation tends to decrease as one moves away from the equator.. (insert other variables if you choose.. cloud or tree cover… elevation..)”
Therefore, that’s not evidence that blacks need more vitamin d than anyone else..
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3222336/
Osteoporosis in Caucasian women is heavily (but not exclusively) linked to aging, menopause, and hormonal changes, however the effects of vitamin D deficiency go beyond osteoporosis.
and quite frankly, is irrelevant to the discussion..
Well you didn’t read through or didn’t accept the theories postulated about the genesis lighter skin in the articles I posted. You don’t have to agree with them.
At this point we should probably say that we disagree with each other.
Quite frankly I am getting bored with the discussion.
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Is there a reason why a moderator isn’t moderating these comments?There are NUMEROUS racist comments from racist white trolls that CLEARLY only came to this site for the sole purpose of bullying, harassing, belittling, and over-talking black people. So why are their comments still here? They ARE NOT interested in not speaking with authority on things they CLEARLY don’t experience nor are they interested listening, reading, or absorbing any information first before speaking. All they care about is protecting the false, flimsy, and phony public image and reputation of whites, even if it means that the physical, sexual, and economic violence that whites inflict upon black men, women, and children TRULY continues to go on unimpeded. Experiencing this kind of everyday, interpersonal racism/ white supremacy is STRESSFUL and makes it a hostile environment for POC, especially black people. They regularly engage oppressive, domineering, gaslighting behaviors like demeaning black people to make themselves feel better, using racist stereotypes, trolling, minimizing, name-calling or any other number of derailing and silencing tactics. Why aren’t these obsessed and psychopathic whites being moderated or banned?
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@Uncle Milton
I did not say I agreed or disagreed. As it was not a question posed to me and it was not a question or comment I posed to you. I would say this is something you more directed to me. I would actually prefer you stick to things I ask rather than trying to pull me into topics you and resw77 are arguing, but appears you can’t.
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@Joshua
Oh yes I had the audacity to say “lucky for you” as it saves you the trouble of try to argue something meaningless to my point. Also I did not imply tempature you assumed tempature. I stated I have experienced warmer winter and hotter summer, but this was stated as a result of MY location. I also stated this because I was pointing out that over time climates in areas changed. This was also what I was getting at when I asked Uncle Milton that question.
I did ask him if the weather in Scotland has changed over the years for that very point, but I also made clear I was not expert on weather in Scotland.
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These virulent, frothing, sociopathic trolls have no intention of EVER speaking respectfully to or about black people nor do they intend to carry on a productive and respectful dialogue about or with black people.
That describes these ‘covert’ white racists in a nutshell. Covert, because they will swear on a stack of bibles that they are not and then will proceed to spew all the sound bites, phrases and such, such as ‘white privilege’,’ people of colour’, etc, etc. ad nausea. Deep down they know what they are but will put on a facade as being sympathetic. This is another form of oppression, believe me. I beg to differ with you on one thing; allowing white racist rolls here. They are educational as they illustrate what these racist whites really think. There is a wide array that come here, from the out and out blatant ones to the more subtle ones who use verbiage and ‘scientific studies(HBD), to prove their points. My personal favourites are the ones who are down with the PCS(or whatever the acronym is). Wolves in sheep’s clothing. I also find them to be comical and thoroughly enjoy mocking them, or at least some of them time permitting of course.
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@sharinalr
When you say words like “warmer” and “hotter”, in English that is “temperature”. No dodging out of it now.
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@Uncle Milton
“I doubt you believe that white people don’t lie or stretch the truth. ”
So now you’re opining about the intentions of someone else. Something you cannot possibly prove. How desperate can one be to make a point?
“Regardless melanoma is not always caused by sun exposure.”
LOL. But it mostly is. So what’s your point? NIH clearly says:
“You are more likely to develop melanoma if you:
Have fair skin, blue or green eyes, or red or blond hair
Live in sunny climates or at high altitudes
Spent a lot of time in high levels of strong sunlight because of a job or other activities
Have had one or more blistering sunburns during childhood
Use tanning devices”
So why are you trying to deceive people otherwise?
“Osteoporosis in Caucasian women is heavily (but not exclusively) linked to aging, menopause, and hormonal changes, however the effects of vitamin D deficiency go beyond osteoporosis.”
So now its Dr. Milton, I assume? Regardless what other contributing factors there are for osteoporosis, studies consistently find high Vitamin D deficiencies in people with osteoporosis. And this study concluded: “Although dietary sources of both nutrients [vitamin D and calcium] are available, most people do not receive adequate amounts for proper bone health. In addition, the heightened awareness of damaging effects of sunlight has limited vitamin D synthesis from the skin. ” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2621390/
“You don’t have to agree with them.”
Once again, you did not post any evidence, not one iota, that light skin developed outside of Africa independently. Once again being deceitful in order to make a point. The only thing we know for sure is that dark-skinned people can give birth to offspring with lighter complexions, regardless of environment.
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You’re arguing over whether dark skinned people in Africa or out of Africa gave birth to lighter skinned people? Why does it matter so much where, other than SOMETHING made it a survival advantage where it became predominate.
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@Joshua
“He’s a scientist, and follows the scientific method.”
Right, keep telling yourself that. He’s a fake doctor who pretends to know “Aztec Medicine” but who’s really unqualified to provide any medical advice. The article you posted only rephrases statements but does not refute them with any evidence. He’s a quack just like you.
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@resw77
Keep munching that racist pseudo-science. And don’t complain when racist pseudo-science is used against your ethnicity.
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@Joshua
No, I’m not arguing over that. It is a FACT that dark-skinned Africans (and non-Africans) can give birth to lighter skin people.
You’re the one trying to say that pale people got their light skin from environmental adaptation, and all I ask is that you prove it. I provide proof, now where’s yours? I know you don’t have any…it’s just your desperate attempt to perpetuate the lie that pale skin is more evolved, contrary to evidence.
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@Joshua
You’re not a scientist, so no one thinks you know what constitutes “pseudoscience,” and you, of course, have no clue what my ethnicity is.
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@Joshua
I am not dodging out of it as it was clear my intentions. Had you actually followed what I said to uncle Milton which is signed a dated before you assumed then you wouldn’t be doing the “in english warmer and hotter mean tempature” rebuttal. A rebuttal that saves you little from your folly.
Tempature in english measures hot and cold with reference to standard values. It does not mean Or translate to “warmer” or “hotter” In english. Perhaps this is the source of your misunderstanding.
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@ Veronica
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@sharinalr
Yes, in fact it does imply a reference to temperature. Warmer and hotter refer to a positive temperature delta of unknown quantity. You’re still dodging, for what reason I can’t imagine – but it is indeed folly.
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@resw77
You have four choices. One is that there were always lots of dark and light skins, two, that dark skin evolved from light skin, three, that light skin evolved from dark skin, or four, that both light and dark skin evolved from something in the middle.
Now, I thought we had agreed that light skinned Europeans (and other light skinned people) evolved from dark skinned people, no?
So, while mutations occur in any population from time to time, they will only proliferate under certain circumstances. One is that the mutation confers an advantage in some way. The second is that it doesn’t harm but isn’t recessive.
The second case would have Europe being mixed dark and light as neither would be dominate. Given that Europe was essentially completely light skinned, there must have been some survival advantage in being light-skinned. Thus whatever that was, agreed on by virtually all science to be environmental, caused the light skin mutation to proliferate. Contrariwise in Africa there is survival advantage in being dark skinned. Light skinned people being born to black Africans are generally one-off mutations that don’t proliferate, no?
“Evolved” doesn’t mean “advanced”. It means “changed”. There is nothing more advanced in either light or dark skin. Both have their places where they have in the past conferred an survival advantage, by the very definition of evolution and the population that is seen in those places.
“More evolved” is not a science concept .Organisms adapt to fit their local environment.
Who you think a scientist is, is made irrelevant by your very inability to differentiate hacks from the truly qualified, and even understand the simple science discussed here.
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@Joshua
Not necessarily and not at all in the context of the discussion itself. You assumed and as such that is again your folly that you want to now make mine.
If I wanted to dodge I would simply ignore you or change the subject. Not continue on in pointing out your wrong.
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@Joshua
“there is plenty to read on the internet about her quackery, Some I’ve posted here. Some others have posted it as well. Look it up if you want to participate.”—You are making what I said more than what it is. I stated clearly that you calling her a quack is nothing more than name calling. It is not discrediting her. What others posted on the internet does not set that aside. You are in fact still calling names are you not? Yet have yet to provide adequate information to discredit.
“You might think you’re adopting the high ground but in reality you’re defending the indefensible, “theories” just as bogus, racist, and silly (if not more so) than those that made the rounds the first half of the last century and before.”—More assuming what I am doing I see. I made it clear several posts up what I think of her theory based on what I read(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-isis-papers/#comment-272761). I also made it clear that I will avoid speaking on her until I have finished reading her book(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-isis-papers/#comment-275241) as I prefer to make my own judgments. So it makes no sense to defend something I have yet read. It also makes no sense for you to assume that.
“Her degrees mean nothing in the face of the silliness she writes. She might as well have got them from a Cracker Jack’s box for all the evidence of them in her crayon scribblings. And yes, I have a scientific education and degrees from two of the top ten science schools in the country, so again, her degrees don’t carry much weight in the face of sheer looniness with me. It’s just funny that Abagond would sink to such depths for an article.”—That is great, but your degress mean what to me? Does stating you have them change what I said above? Does it change that you have an opinion?
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Correction degrees*
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@Joshua
You have two choices: admit basic facts, or stay in denial. No need for us to guess which course you’ve taken.
“Now, I thought we had agreed that light skinned Europeans (and other light skinned people) evolved from dark skinned people, no?”
I don’t know with whom you made that agreement.
“So, while mutations occur in any population from time to time…The second is that it doesn’t harm but isn’t recessive.”
Please spare us the uneducated explanations. No need to constantly remind us how little you know.
“Given that Europe was essentially completely light skinned, there must have been some survival advantage in being light-skinned.”
Unless you’ve measured the melanin content of ancient human remains, you have no idea what skin complexion the majority of Europeans were prior to the first self-depictions of the so-called Minoans.
“Thus whatever that was, agreed on by virtually all science to be environmental, caused the light skin mutation to proliferate.”
LOL @ “virtually all” when only a handful of scientists have ever made that claim, and without any evidence of course. It’s a theory…an unproven theory in denial of the fact that light skin offspring can be produced by dark-skinned people.
“‘Evolved’ doesn’t mean ‘advanced’. It means ‘changed’.”
Only in your little world. Merriam-Webster: “to change or develop slowly often into a better, more complex, or MORE ADVANCED state.”
But don’t worry, we have no evidence that that applies to pale skin. Dark skin, however, is proven to be better at protecting against UV rays anywhere on Earth, including Europe where the sun also shines and people get melanoma without leaving the continent.
“Who you think a scientist is, is made irrelevant”
It’s obvious that some ideas in Welsing’s work, which you clearly have not read, makes you feel less than inadequate. If not, then you wouldn’t be engaging us on this thread…you wouldn’t feel the need to discredit Dr. Welsing using a fake doctor’s opinion, and you would not need to keep telling me what not to think.
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@resw77
Since you seem unable to actually argue the points, I’ll bow out and let you enjoy your feast of self-imposed ignorance and pseudo-science.
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@Joshua
You still can’t come up with any proof for your bogus theories. Everything I’ve argued about is backed up with facts. You’re just too proud and in denial to admit it.
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@Big Momma
LMAO!!! Make no mistake about it: Racism is the white man’s religion and money is his God. There is no other explanation.
Whites have a false, flimsy, fraudulent, and baseless white superiority complex that is completely unfounded and not based on ANYTHING approximating reality so: 1) they have unreasonably high self esteem because they don’t see any fault with themselves 2) they don’t try to improve themselves and 3) they will hate the people they scapegoat. White supremacy breeds mediocrity, theft, and lying in lazy azz, demented, and psychotic white racists like you.
You uncivilized, racist degenerates already KNOW you aren’t that smart, exceptional, or hard working. You don’t deserve and haven’t earned all the resources you have stolen.
Most of you lazy thieves ONLY got where you are today because of your white skin and not merit, educational background, or any approximating an actual work ethic. You’re in denial and you’re intellectually stunted liars. Even though you’ve killed people to make sure you have the best access to all social and financial resources, you’re STILL the least talented, competent, or inventive – which is why you continue to steal so many things through cultural appropriation. From Ancient Egypt to the rhetoric of African American Civil Rights Leaders who were murdered by whites to everyday African-American slang, you lazy whites rest on your laurels [aka your white skin] and STEAL S..T because you’re too empty-headed and boring to come up with s..t on your own. Since you don’t know what it’s like to ACTUALLY be accountable for your OWN issues, whenever things are going wrong in your clearly f..ked up lives, you think it’s acceptable to scapegoat black people and make yourselves feel better by bullying and being rude to black people or outright calling us racial slurs.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29213892
Here is a rather interesting article. It says that modern European ancestry comes from three ancient tribes. One of which were hunter-gatherers who entered Europe via the caucus. Interestingly enough, though they retained darker skin, they were the first people to develop the mutation for blue eyes. Then, around 7,000 years ago, Indo-European farmers, who were light skinned but had dark hair and eyes, entered into Europe via Turkey. Eventually, the two groups intermixed, with a third group from Siberia also contributing to the European gene pool. So, according to this article, white people got their white skin and blue eyes from two different groups of people.
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Benjamin, I suspect in the near future it will be “announced” that white people are NOT native to Europe. “Elite” White people already have data and discuss among themselves the “Africaness” of neo and paleolithic burials and fossils; but they do it in coded language.
European anthropologists/paleontologists have noted patterns of brachial and crural indices and burial positions since at least the mid 19th century and used them in part to formulate the Out Of Africa theory before there was genetic and molecular evidence/techniques to back it up.
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@Benjamin
“they were the first people to develop the mutation for blue eyes.”
No, that claim is not made in the article you referenced. Nowhere does it say Europeans were the “first” at anything.
However, one silly claim made by Reich is about a “striking combination of dark skin and blue eyes that doesn’t exist any more.” Yes, it still exists as ocular albinism:
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“they were the first people to develop the mutation for blue eyes.”
—————————————————————————————
if you LOSE the INFORMATION to produce brown eyes, will the result be blue eyes?
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@thwack Wait, are you agreeing with the Out of Africa theory, or are you suggesting that the idea was put forth before there was enough evidence to back it up?
@resw77 I agree, there were probably Africans with ocular albinism prior to the colonization of Europe. What I was trying to highlight, is that if this article is in fact correct, Europeans get their blue eyes and white skin from two different sources. The first Europeans with blue eyes didn’t come from the same stock as the first Europeans with white skin. And I agree, there are dark skinned people with blue eyes all over the world, it just isn’t very common. So that remark in the article was rather silly.
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@Benjamin,
Im saying elite white people “regulate” and “throttle” the worlds historical record to serve white supremacy. “They” had evidence for the OOA theory long before it was tolerated/ taught… by the governments, universities and institutions they themselves ran.
“From studies I have made during many
years I am fully convinced that the precon-
ceived ideas of many scientists as to the
origin of the human race — as regards both
place and date — are erroneous, and that
the human race did not originate in Asia, or
any other part of the world, but in Africa.
I will bring evidence before you which I
am sure you will acknowledge as critically
correct.
The proofs of my contention against all
the learned men of the present day will be
objective and subjective.
***snip****
All of them have denied Africa as the home
of Man.
But, Gentlemen, it was in Africa that the
little Pygmy was first evolved from the Pithe-
canthropus Erectus or an Anthropoid Ape — in
the Nile Valley and around the lakes at the
head of the Nile (which in this lecture I will,
for the sake of brevity, style ” Old Egypt ” ).
From here these little men spread all over
the world, North, East, South and West, until
not only Africa, but Europe, Asia, North and
South America and Oceania were populated
by them.
***snip***
Outside Africa they still exist — in New
Guinea, New Hebrides, the forest of Bolivia
in South America, the mountains in China,
the Philippine Islands, the Sakais in the
Malay Peninsula, and in Northern India.
They have been exterminated in Europe,
North America, Japan, Australia and Tas-
mania, but I have no doubt they are to be
found in other places not yet explored.” —
THE ORIGIN AND EVOLUTION
OF PRIMITIVE MAN
Lecture given at the Royal Societies Club
St James’s Street, February 1912
BY
ALBERT CHURCHWARD
M.D., M.R.C.P., F.G.S., etc.
AUTHOR OF “ORIGIN AND ANTIQUITY OF FREEMASONRY”
AND “SIGNS AND SYMBOLS OF PRIMORDIAL MAN “
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@Benjamin
“The first Europeans with blue eyes didn’t come from the same stock as the first Europeans with white skin.”
That’s not really a claim that’s being made either.
The main Nature article says “Loschbour, like La Brana and Motala 12, PROBABLY had blue or light coloured eyes,” without providing any evidence for that. The BBC article just sensationally ran with a flimsy guess.
Also, the main Nature article says “the skin-lightening allele in SLC24A5” is “nearly fixed in Europeans today.” Recent studies suggest links between SLC24A5 and albinism: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364476
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To resw77:
So now its Dr. Milton, I assume?
I have a Master’s degree in Biochemistry, but no I am not a doctor but that does not mean I can not read scientific literature or listen to the advise of my maternal uncle, who is a doctor about my mother’s condition, (Osteoporosis of the spine…) which my uncle attributes to smoking and a reduction in hormones after menopause. In regards to race and bone density, black Americans on average have higher bone density than other ethnic groups in the US:
“Looking at race and ethnicity, white women were used as a reference point. African American women were half as likely to have low bone density in the osteoporotic range as white women. There were about 8,000 African American women in the study and about 4% of them had osteoporosis and about 32% of them had osteopenia in a range that could be considered for treatment. So, although osteoporosis is less common in African Americans, it is still a significant issue for many of them”
So why are you trying to deceive people otherwise?
Hmm.. either you either misunderstood me or deliberately using a logical fallacy as I never said that the majority of cases melanoma in Scotland were caused by something other than sun (or ultra violet light from tanning booths…). But this is all tangential to an offhand comment I made about Scottish tanning… which I was relating to my point that in physical anthropology skin color generally correlates with solar radiation, eg an environmental adaptation.
I think we could have an interesting discussion on the matter resw77 as I think you are smart guy, but your wall of logical fallacies just becomes tedious.
Good luck to you.
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To Jefe:
That is also why I was a bit surprised, if not shocked at how you reacted to this particular topic. It is though this topic suddenly hit a nerve that caused you to be very defensive (unlike how you behaved in most other threads). Is there a reason why the ideas in this topic caused a more intense reaction than other topics?
I have a touch of Asperger’s, look up the symptoms. Basically the tit for tat between myself resw77 was about the logical process and two relentless guys going at it… like umm.. perhaps the guys on reddit…heh…. gets old for everyone and it got old for me. As I have stated several times I don’t find everything that Dr Welsing without merit. I think she has some good ideas on a number of things and she may indeed be a good psychiatrist in her clinical practice but I have little on which I can judge her work aside from this book. Smart, accomplished people can have some unsupportable ideas, see my previous point about Dr. Watson. Note that Dr. Welsing was dismissed (or failed to have her tenured renewed depending upon the phrasing in her interviews) from her teaching position at Howard University. In an interview with Michael Dyson, she now says “emphasize white supremacy not melanin”.
As for your statement that melanin is a hormone, according to the scientific literature, it’s a polymer.
As for the explanations for the origins of white supremacy, Abagond has posted multiple times on the issue including most recently:
For further information about skin phenotype you may find these articles interesting:
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003912
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820762/
If you wish to know more about variance in phenotype I can refer you to some blogs or texts on the subject, you may reach me at my previously posted email address.
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If anyone is interested in the comment Dr Welsing at one of her presentations where she charged white supremacy is a homosexual cult; here are some details at least as far back as the Nazis.
But the connection goes much farther back in time, probably to the earliest religious conflicts between Earth/fertility/feminine based religions and masculine warrior religions.
http://gaynazis.com/
Adolph Hitler owes EVERYTHING to Ernst Rohm (a homosexual) who commanded the SA. It was Rohm and the SA who beat down the communists in the streets and provided security for Hitlers speeches and rallies.
Once elected, Hitler had Rohm murdered.
Why?
I suspect because Rohm was too powerful. With homosexuals spread all throughout the Nazi party to do Rohm’s bidding, Hitler could never be sure who or where they where.
In other words, some part of so called “homophobia” is male fear of another level of exclusivity (secret) inside any hierarchal organization.
“secret handshakes”
shifty “go betweens”
winks and nods…?
Dr Welsing never went this far regarding the homosexual origins of white supremacy during her presentations at Howard, unless you forced her.
Part of me wonders if this was fear of being accused of homophobia?
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@Uncle Milton
“I have a Master’s degree in Biochemistry”
Don’t you worry, I never actually thought you were a doctor of any kind, certainly not an MD. And it’s a long road from a Masters to a MD, like Welsing.
“I never said that the majority of cases melanoma in Scotland were caused by something other than sun”
You did, on multiple occasions, desperately play down the role of the sun contributing to Scotland’s high melanoma levels:
“The favored destination for Scots is Spain”
“Scottish beaches can be beautiful and nice to walk on but as a regular destination for sun bathers..? Not really”
“I doubt you believe that white people don’t lie or stretch the truth”
Sorry, Uncle Milton, MSc, You’re not fooling anyone here…
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To resw77:
Don’t you worry, I never actually thought you were a doctor of any kind, certainly not an MD. And it’s a long road from a Masters to a MD, like Welsing.
So I suppose you accept by uncle’s diagnosis (who is a medial doctor..) and the information in the links I posted.
You said:
You did, on multiple occasions, desperately play down the role of the sun contributing to Scotland’s high melanoma level.
False, I do believe the sun (or tanning booths designed to mimic the sun’s ultraviolet rays..) do have a role in causing melanoma in Scotland. But where we apparently differ is the source of those ultraviolet rays.. I say it is predominantly from taking holidays in Southern countries and from tanning booths, the articles you linked indicate the same.
But Scottish tanning is tangential to the issue of the broader discussion, namely that in physical anthropology skin color generally correlates with solar radiation, eg an environmental adaptation.
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@Uncle Milton
“False, I do believe the sun (or tanning booths designed to mimic the sun’s ultraviolet rays..) do have a role in causing melanoma in Scotland.”
Not false. You did in fact play down the role of the sun in causing melanoma in Scotland. I asked you a direct question at least 3 times about the protective qualities of melanin being useful in Scotland and you refused to answer. It’s called denial.
“I say it is predominantly from taking holidays in Southern countries and from tanning booths, the articles you linked indicate the same.”
No article I linked made that claim. It said “The dramatic RISE in skin cancer is directly related to people’s tanning behaviour, a trend which began in the 1970s with the dawn of cheap package holidays, ” NOT, that Scotland’s high melanoma levels was due to tanning “booths” or holidays in “southern countries.”
But since you’re making that claim, please prove it. Prove that most Scots who have melanoma take “holidays in Southern countries” and use “tanning booths.”
“physical anthropology skin color generally correlates with solar radiation, eg an environmental adaptation.”
Generally speaking, but not necessarily, e.g., solar irradiation is among the highest in parts of the Andes, so why aren’t the inhabitants the darkest in the world? Why are people darker in the Congo, where solar irradiation is lower than the Andes? Why are Eskimos darker than white French?
And, of course, any correlation still does not prove that skin colour is a result environmental adaptation. Surely with an MSc, you know that.
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To resw77:
No article I linked made that claim. It said “The dramatic RISE in skin cancer is directly related to people’s tanning behaviour, a trend which began in the 1970s with the dawn of cheap package holidays, ” NOT, that Scotland’s high melanoma levels was due to tanning “booths” or holidays in “southern countries.”
Yep… cheap holidays .. in Southern countries, .. and one of the articles did mention tanning booths, it may have been one of mine.. but I thought your link was the first, but here’s another:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27203299
“People in Scotland have been urged to avoid using sunbeds as melanoma cases continue to increase, according to a report.”
Resw77
I asked you a direct question at least 3 times about the protective qualities of melanin being useful in Scotland and you refused to answer. It’s called denial.
Or understanding it’s highly tangential to the original discussion… most Scots (absent a few albinos) do have melanin or else they couldn’t tan at all.. but they were adapted to an environment with less sun.. if they expose themselves to UV for long periods of time on Spanish beaches or tanning booths then no surprise that there would be increased cases of melanoma.
And, of course, any correlation still does not prove that skin colour is a result environmental adaptation. Surely with an MSc, you know that.
True it is not a proof in the scientific sense.. but there is strong evidence…
Generally speaking, but not necessarily, e.g., solar irradiation is among the highest in parts of the Andes, so why aren’t the inhabitants the darkest in the world? Why are people darker in the Congo, where solar irradiation is lower than the Andes? Why are Eskimos darker than white French?
Diet, migration from other locations, sexual selection.. etc.. evolution is not linear. Evolutionary biology is fascinating but this is not really the forum to discuss it. As I said to Jefe I could refer you to some blogs.
Also evolution is an ongoing process… interestly.. supposedly the skull shapes of black Americans and white Americans have converged over the past few centuries.. beyond what could be explained by interbreeding. Could be a case of diet, phenotype plasticity, or perhaps sexual selection.
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@Uncle Milton
I understand the games you’re playing, and it’s abundantly clear that you couldn’t prove any of the claims you’ve made. Nice try.
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To resw77:
I understand the games you’re playing,
What games..?
and it’s abundantly clear that you couldn’t prove any of the claims you’ve made. Nice try.
Well to you.. of course.. since nothing will apparently convince you otherwise of your position.. but it’s conventional thought in both biology and anthropology that skin color is an adaptation to environment….goes back to at least the anthropologist Ashley Montagu, the author of Man’s Most Dangerous Myth: the Fallacy of Race.
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@Uncle Milton
“What games..?”
Moving the goal posts. No time for it.
“since nothing will apparently convince you otherwise of your position”
Proof of your claims will convince me. The claims for which I’ve specifically asked for proof.
“but it’s conventional thought in both biology and anthropology that skin color is an adaptation to environment”
It’s also conventional thought in biology that skin colour is a function of melanin production.
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This isn’t about skin color, but I read an interesting theory about blonde hair and blue eyes. Since those mutations don’t have any apparent benefits, maybe the only reason they caught on was because they drew attention to themselves. Humans with blonde hair and blue eyes were like peacocks with brightly colored feathers. They stood out among their rivals, when competition for mates was fierce. We don’t have scales or feathers that we can color in order to attract mates, but we do have eyes, and we do have hair. I guess this is just the usual, sexual selection theory, but yesterday was the first time I’ve heard blonde hair and blue eyes compared to a peacock’s feathers.
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@ Benjamin
But that doesn’t make sense. Being a total albino also would draw attention to oneself. So would having one’s eyes on stalks instead of in sockets. Being completely hairless would also draw attention to oneself.
But what would determine that these were desirable rather than deformities?
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Benjamin first said: “…skin color is an adaptation to environment”
resw77 responded: “…skin colour is a function of melanin production”
Benjamin said: “This isn’t about skin color”
This is an example of the games you’re playing, and why I have no more time for you.
@King
“But what would determine that these were desirable rather than deformities”
Nothing but Benjamin’s learned predilection.
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@resw77
When I said “this isn’t about skin color” I wasn’t referring to an earlier post you or I made. I was simply referring to the post I was making with regards to blonde hair and blue eyes. I was letting people know that my post has nothing to do with skin color – which is a primary topic on this thread – but about something similar.
@King
I wasn’t saying that the theory I presented was fact, just that it was something interesting I read. I realize that by suggesting blue eyes spread via sexual selection, it sort of conforms with white beauty standards, but that wasn’t what I was trying to get across. If you don’t mind me asking, how do you believe light eyes/hair became (relatively) common among Europeans and to a lesser degree those in West and Central Asia?
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I am not challenging why you brought it up, I’m just questioning the validity of the theory.
Intent is not the issue. Nevertheless, the logic of this theory is revealing. Most people do not have blonde hair and blue eyes. Most White people do not have blonde hair and blue eyes. Even most Scandinavians don’t have blonde hair and blue eyes. So why would humans with blonde hair and blue eyes be compared to being like “peacocks with brightly colored feathers?” They are simply one recessive genetic variation among many genetic variations. I see no evidence that they have been somehow preferred through sexual selection.
Probably the same way that being hairy became (relatively) common among Europeans and to a lesser degree those in West and Central Asia?
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To resw77:
Moving the goal posts. No time for it.
What are you talking about..? My thesis remains the same – Dr Welsing’s book is built upon conjecture, speculation, and erroneous or unproved information.
”
Proof of your claims will convince me. The claims for which I’ve specifically asked for proof.
Well first it was up to Dr Welsing to provide evidence.. she failed to do so…
I have provided you with links to articles that provided evidence to counter Welsing’s conjecture and speculation… your ability to process the evidence or accept it is a different matter.
It’s also conventional thought in biology that skin colour is a function of melanin production.
Yes it is – you’re point..?
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I’ve come to realize
the need for familiarity with multiple scientific disciples to competently
comprehend and discuss the issues involved
specifically general history and specific histories
pyshcology,sociology,biology,biochemistry,genetics and heredity
philosophy – general and specific relevant fields of study
also
I have been reading this work for going on 20 years now ,and even at this late date
I still find things and issues which no other writer to my knowledge has addressed
the critics range from meaningless ad ho-mien to those who touch on only one minor area of this work
such as the critique of her discussion of melanin and albinism
which I must add until I read this work I have never considered the what and why of blackness and whiteness
that is what is skin color,and even more not just why people have skin color by why and how they don’t.
Specific what is whiteness.
currently among other things I’ve found is Mark Twain’s essays specifically his on the damned human race and skin deep.
I been a avid if selective reader since childhood and while I knew of Mark twain I was never really interested or motivated to read him as I’m not about a lot of famous writer’s ,indeed the more famous and well known the more boring and irrelevant I find them in general.
however I was greatly surprised and astonished even at Mark Twain’s essay on the damned human race ,indeed my search for the complete essay is somewhat similar to my search for reviews and comments on Dr.welsings work especially in the early years, a curious silence and absence even amongst supposed supporters ,sorta reverse ad ho mien in which there is empty praise and little else.
So as I indicated at the start of this comment I and everyone else needs much study and familiarity with the sciences which as they represent our species best effort at accurately reflecting reality and therefore do not lend themselves to easy effort.
Also I have limitations and liabilities in my pursuit of knowledge and study being born a poor african american male.
I don’t study as much as I should or want to, however considering the scope of this endeavor I see it as life long
and truly requiring years if not decades of study and analysis.
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@ Mbeti
I would agree that an operational understanding of these things is necessary. But I don’t think it’s necessary to become an expert in each of these fields. I think the general goal of University education was to give us a broad enough understanding of many fields which can throughout out lives be useful in understanding truth.
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In regards to references to Mark twain In The Isis papers
The Damned Human Race by Mark Twain 1905
Skin Deep by Mark Twain
not found but I did find –
Following the Equator: A Journey Around the World by Mark Twain
August 18, 2006
CHAPTER XLI.
Complexions—Advantages with the Zulu
545 words out of 189,872 thousand
perhaps the original collection is either extremely obscure being
over a hundred years old or no longer exists in its original form.
I found it by it by doing a direct search for this sentence found in Dr.welsing’s book the Isis Papers
“Nearly all black and brown skins are beautiful, but a beautiful white skin is rare.”
This statement is consistent with my own every day experience.
however after reading the essay The Damned Human Race by Mark Twain 1905
I find her claim of seeking justice for black people faulty in that black people
are little different in their “moral” qualities then white/albinic people.
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criticism of dr.welsing
one book which is just a collection of essays or “papers” spanning
several years.
started around 1970 to 1990 – twenty years
its 2015 currently she still does lectures and interviews but no
books,in over 25 years really,no update?!
same with her mentor nelly fuller, who does even fewer lectures and
interviews, maybe he’s to old now.
and yeah there are many claims she makes that are peausdoscientific.
however while these things are true she still has contributed to
the discussion of the whats and why’s of racism.
also their is the segment of the black population that supports
her work.
As I;ve seen here as well as reviews of the isis papers on amazon
you can usually tell the race of the reviewer by the content of
the review – if they are black ,then your probably going to hear
some lavish but empty of detail praise ,if queen or elder is
mentioned its probably a Afrocentric black person;
whereas if its a negative review containing a lot of ad homiem’s
such as bullshit ,garbage,tripe etc also empty of detail guess
what probably either white or white-identified (meaning black but
sincerely claims things like “there is no racism” “black peoples
problems are their own making to the complete exclusion of white
peoples involvement etc)
also I was just watching a recent lecture -(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLcRRip1Mos)
– of hers
it watch you would have thought she was a standup comedian the why
the black audience was continually and loudly laughing,esp
virtually anytime she mentioned sex.
now I like to laugh as much as the next person and I’ve even found
it mildly amusing when she occasionally jokes but most of the time
I consider every thing she talks about dead fucking serious I mean
what of black people being enslaved and regular killed among other
things is funny.
if I even think about dr.welsing and her work much less listen to
an interview or lecture guess what I’m in a serious,serious mood.
also the environ/setting in which the lecture was recorded was extremely low budget as well.
but ironically in the course of this lecture she explains why this
is so – because black people specifically and nonwhite generally
have extremely low levels of self respect in relation to white
people.
this explanation as well as many others while not complete and
through is at least plausible ,of course it would be nice if we
had some professional peer reviewing to weed out the nonsense and
error but then that’s an unrealistic expectation at this time.
also some very interesting q and a at the end,but this could be much more effectively done if she just had a blog ,maybe.
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[…] that Frances Cress Welsing that she was a singularly unique black intellectual, who has proposed an analysis of “color confrontation” that explains worldwide white supremacy in a scient…, based on an empirical method. Be not deceived. Her work is not science, it is comedy. Here are […]
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[…] Photo Cred: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/the-isis-papers/ […]
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I’ve started reading the papers, and it does make a lot of sense and explain a lot. E.g. why ‘white’ men worry so much about other men’s dick size while we don’t! LOL
However, I found it a bit simplistic in that it lumps non-‘whites’ together. From the ‘white’ perspective this makes sense, but she should’ve made it clear that it’s only theirs. Also, I reckon she relies a bit too heavily on symbology. More detailed historical examples (names, dates, written artifacts, etc.) would’ve helped support the premise more strongly.
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Powerful stuff. I heard about this book back in the 80s. And I just started to read it. So true. And this is the ” dog whistle” that Trump uses to activate his base of white supremacists when he utters ” Making America Great Again.” And his obsession of building a wall on the “southern border” of the United States of America and not the “northern border”; because non-whites come from the “southern border” and “whites,” i.e. Europeans come from the “northern border.”
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