Respectability politics (1895- ) is a cargo cult founded by middle-class Black Americans. It says that the purpose of life is getting cargo (material wealth, “success”) and the key to that is to act more like White Americans – to dress like them, talk like them, etc. It is why, for example, some people say that sagging pants are holding Black people back.
Apostles: Booker T. Washington, Don Lemon, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, Chris Rock in “Niggas vs Black People”.
Glory days: 1895 to 1955, from Booker T. Washington’s Atlanta Compromise to the murder of Emmett Till. Its low point was from 1965 to 1984, from Carmichael to Cosby. It seems to be a reaction to racial nadirs, periods of White racist backlash against anti-racist reforms.
In the US, Whites dehumanize Blacks, partly through stereotypes. Blacks are seen as lazy, unintelligent, violent, criminal, oversexed, etc. Most Whites think the stereotypes are true. They inform not only “realistic” television dramas, but even news reporting, policing, court cases and government policy.
Therefore, says respectability politics, the main thing wrong with Black people is their behaviour. Change the behaviour and Whites will see Black people as human and worthy and therefore do right by them. Stuff like police brutality and high unemployment will melt away.
There are two things wrong with that:
1. It is straight-up internalized racism.
It believes the stereotypes about Blacks, at least as applied to poor and working-class Blacks. It sees Whites as better, as the cultural model, as good people ruled by reason, not racism. It makes human worth conditional, something to audition for. It is the job interview writ large. It is imprisoned inside the frame of the White gaze.
As internalized racism it is poison to the soul, leading to shame, confusion, self-doubt and self-hatred. It makes Blacks psychologically dependent on Whites, a people who constantly dehumanize Blacks. It is like making your rapist your lover.
2. It will not work.
White racism is irrational and self-serving. It cannot be “disproved”, only confirmed. Stereotypes are based on confirmation bias. So all it takes are a few bad apples for Whites to think their stereotypes are true: “I’ve been attacked – jumped by blacks.”
No matter how many degrees you have, no matter how nicely you dress, no matter how “articulate” you are, Whites will still see you as a “nigger”. Or as an “exception” who, deep down, is still a nigger. Not because you are, but because they need to see you that way. To feel good about themselves. To feel that American society and their place in it is not a huge fraud. Black degradation is novocaine for their souls.
Trayvon Martin’s pants did not sag. He did not drop out of high school. He was not fatherless or born out of wedlock. He did not have a police record. He did not have a gun. Yet he was still racially profiled and shot dead – and still demonized by the press as if he were the murderer. And now they are doing the same to Michael Brown.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
- Elite upbringing does not protect Blacks kids from racism
- Exceptional Negroes are “not like other Blacks” and yet show that there is no true road to respectability in the eyes of Whites.
- White demonization
- cargo cults
- Black American middle class
- apostles
- Emmett Till
- Trayvon Martin
- Michael Brown
Excellently written. I’ll be honest and say I wholly believed the respectability politics BS. Glad I’ve come out of it. It just seemed strange to me that white people could fly planes into buildings, shoot up movie theaters, schools, religious buildings, rape children both here and abroad(Korea, Bangkok, recently Kenya) commit multiple acts of domestic terrorism and crimes against humanity yet never have to prove their humanity to anyone but I or my grandmother deserve to get shot down because my underwear showed a bit when I stood up.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Abagond
Your world revolves too much around race and white people. I know a lot of these folks and they are simply old fashion classist. Classism exist in every society, even the ones where Europeans are absent. These people aren’t wannabe whites, they are bougie blacks
LikeLike
Great post, yes to all of this “respectability politics” is playing a huge role in the Mike Brown tragedy in Ferguson Missouri,just because the people in Ferguson are not looking like the black Americans circa 1960 dressed in their Sunday best and being docile in their protest they are being judged by the dominant culture and they are being judged by their body language how they are dressed and how they speak. This is what shapes the perspectives of white America, and this is why many of them feel young men like Mike Brown and other get what they deserve.
LikeLike
Well sagging pants do kinda hold people back…ijs.
LikeLike
Those are kerchief heads in a nutshell!
LikeLike
I liked this post. Thank you.
One could say I grew up exposed to that viewpoint. I had many markings of a ‘respectable’ black person. I was college-educated, ‘articulate’, god-fearing, etc. Nothing is inherently wrong with most of those things but why was it MORE important for black people to be such. Is it that I had to have more pluses to negate my ‘unfortunate’ color?
Basically, this ‘respectability doctrine’ prevails on black people to accept their role in the house of white racism; a house that we did not ask to be held captive in. The onus turns on us to become respectable to whites when whites created the rules that make us unrespectable by default. It is a hamster wheel within the cage. Mentally, I’m off the wheel. My self-respect is not contingent on any rules white society establishes.
To a large extent, it is the black ‘intelligentsia’ that promotes ‘respectability’ because some of them are so-called ‘rented negroes’. They put a black face on white racism. But you can be a well-known black professor and still arouse particular suspicion for trying to get into your own home even after you wrote books claiming racism is no longer an issue.
LikeLiked by 1 person
A perfect example that respectability politics doesn’t work is the POTUS. It doesn’t matter that the POTUS and FLOTUS are are ivy league educated and dress well, speak well. They are still called primates and other derogatory names by many white people here in America. And when they ask him for his birth certificate. It doesn’t matter. It’s like black American have to audition to be seen as “human” in the eyes of white people. White people don’t have to put up with this madness because they have “white privilege” It’s always the marginalized people this garbage is forced upon to be seen as acceptable and human.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Origin: That was great, well said.
LikeLike
Mary,
“A perfect example that respectability politics doesn’t work is the POTUS. It doesn’t matter that the POTUS and FLOTUS are are ivy league educated and dress well, speak well. They are still called primates and other derogatory names by many white people here in America.”
Even with the name calling we can’t say they haven’t been successful.
I wouldn’t say getting an Ivy League education, speaking well, or dressing well is acting white, but if they are they seem to provide some defense against racism. Obama is still the president.
LikeLike
@Mary Burrell
Thanks Mary. I was just about to grab the quote below from your reply when I refreshed the page and saw your compliment.
“It’s like black American have to audition to be seen as “human” in the eyes of white people. ”
I agree with this very much. If you buy into it, it’s almost as if you’re constantly auditioning for a role in life. Anyone has a right to dismiss you if they think you aren’t dressing the part. It’s ridiculous. Trayvon Martin was wearing a hoodie instead of an Armani suit coming from the store in the rain so he was seen as a thug. Or rather, he was seen as a thug because he was black and he wasn’t dressed in a ridiculous and inapropriate way so as to disconfirm it. Shoot him.
LikeLike
Solesearch:
“Well sagging pants do kinda hold people back…ijs.”
This statement and logic has a white self serving mindset as a white person and a self hating black person with internalized racism, against other blacks.
I have had it up to hear with white people, always pointing to the garments, that black people wear at the time they were shot and killed by police and other white civilians!
I would bet if black teens would start wearing TuTu’s, whites would criminalize black men wearing a TUTU! “Watch out, a black teen with a TUTU, lock your door!”
Just as Treyvon’s martin’s hoodie, didn’t have anything to do with why he was shot and killed, two fingers being displayed in a photo, has nothing to do with why he was shot and killed by a white police officer.
White people will always find some justification for an unarmed black teen/ male’s, being killed by a white person.
Its white people’s racist white gaze, that holds black teens/men back, not their garments!
Let me give you one out of thousands of examples, this double standard and fallacy plays out. I was watching a clip on cnn a few months ago, when Justin Beiber was arrest for driving drink and drag racing.
The clip they were running, while talking about him ( in a sympathetic way i might add, unlike they did with Chris brown ) Showed him posing for cameras in sagging pants, pointing and gesturing like a gangster, towards the crowd.
He was never portrayed as a ,”thug” or “gangster” in the media for this type of display.
Because when white pop stars like Justin beiber, Miley Cyrus, Justin timber lake and robin thick, ripp off black culture by dressing the part, singing the part and having blacks in their videos as props and have black entourages, they are seen as being, “edgy” and “cool”.
Blacks that comfortable in their own skin,clothing and style are condemned by whites as criminals and are people to shoot and kill, unarmed!
So please, spare me with the sagging pants, hoodies, wave caps trope. Its a double standard that is never pointed out in the white media.
LikeLiked by 1 person
What if Chris Rock is right?
Anyway, those people in the pics, like Obama, have a lot of white. The “one drop rule” is an artifact of white attempts to maintain racial purity. For all other purposes, its pretty meaningless. It has to be said, lighter skinned blacks (30-60% white) tend to fit in with whites pretty well, and they are disprortionaltely represented in all positions of any import in this society. I would guess they are evein disproportionately represented on this blog.
But a lot more black women than black men at Harvard, which is interesting. You probably did a post about that, at some point.
#itooamharvard/#iamaman
LikeLike
@Solesearch
“I wouldn’t say getting an Ivy League education, speaking well, or dressing well is acting white, but if they are they seem to provide some defense against racism. Obama is still the president.”
I don’t think Mary is suggesting that those things are “acting white”. My reading of her post was that despite doing those things the Obamas have often been denigrated (ugh).
There have been several (white) presidents who did not complete college. Are we defending against racism or jumping through more hoops because of it?
LikeLike
Glad I can inspire Abagond.
but it’s not just black people, that’s why I mentioned that mixed race people (like Zimmerman and many Latinos) also have issues with “internalized racism”
and easily profile blacks and other people of colour… white is the default that everyone accepts as “acceptable”
That’s why Mexicans or Latin Americans will deny they have African ancestry (until it’s convenient) because Africans represent the lowest group on the totem pole — there is a saying “I work like a Black man to live like a White man”
meaning they work hard like slaves (at least they acknowledged that slaves worked hard, unlike white Americans who thought slaves were “lazy”)
LikeLike
Apostles: Booker T. Washington, Don Lemon, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, Chris Rock in “Niggas vs Black People”.
Linda says,
I was watching the news on Ferguson with some of my co-workers and one of them (from Slovakia, who is married to a black American) was asking “what was wrong with Don Lemon?
I asked her, “what did she mean, what is the problem with Don?”
She said “he is asking these people questions as if he is white or he is on the side of the police, why is he not on the side of the black people?”
and a Filipino co-worker answered “because he is a coconut”
I found it funny at first but then of course, I couldn’t leave Don hanging like that, so I said to them that:
“Don Lemon is a reporter and his job is to remain unbiased. So, at this moment, he is not a black man, he is a “man” doing his job, which is to ask questions–some questions that a white reporter might be reluctant to ask”
Everyone accepted that as reasonable and I was thinking to myself, “Dam, its sad when an Asian and white girl thinks a black man is a sellout”
but then I thought on a serious note, why should Don be expected to act in a certain way? why does everyone expect black people to all act the same… black people are not a monolithic group.
These two immigrants immediately placed Don Lemon in a box because he was black American — why were they stereotyping Don?
The Slovakian is married to a black man, so why is Don a sell out and not her husband — she obviously gets her ideas about race in America from her husband because she never met a black person until she came to the US.
What is the appropriate and acceptable behavior for black people in America? and who is making the rules.
I bet if he was African, no one would have thought he was being a “sell out” because his accent would have placed him into a different category.
LikeLike
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s the evil whites who bring misery and misfortune to blacks. All around the world. Right?
Why is EVERY black nation dirt poor? And why are blacks the poorest group in nations where they are a minority presence?
Why does black culture succeed nowhere on the planet? Why have the better parts black culture fared best in the US?
The population of the US is about 320 million. About 40 million Americans are black. In Africa there are probably 800 million blacks — and virtually all are almost penniless.
If whites were truly the ruination of blacks, there’d be a black nation somewhere on the planet that would stand as a beacon to black achievement and prosperity. Where is it? Where is the black Israel?
LikeLike
I think you are describing the cultural fault line very well , Abagond…and as others describe , even if they function very well in the work force, their phenotype will stigmatise them , culturaly , even if they dont ascribe to black cultural aspects….and , these are cultural judgements
The only thing I would say is , I dont judge Afro descendants , if they dont have an affinity for black culture…only if they criticise black culture , or people for expressing their black culture , as though there was something wrong with that
Afro diasporic culture is one of the most discriminated cultures, I have brought in link after link proving this, it plays out country to country , decade to decade, Zoot Suit and bebop , to hoody and hip hop,
So I champion any thought that will defend that…but individuals are all differant, and sometimes, people will lump in black people who just have an affinity with playing inside one system , that does allow black people to have upward mobility..as long as they know the other racist system will raise its ugly head when you least expect it
I accept black people for who they are , in each individual way , without expectations of ways they should act or dress…and , I defend , fight for , champion , afro diasporic culture and the value it brings to our world
There are too many examples of black people who have aceived in the other system to say they have sold out, but if they put down black people who have black cultural values , dont cookie cutter fit into the white notion of how you are supposed to act….then that is a problem
Black on black charactor assassination is something I dont want to go into analising and making statements about , but it exists
LikeLike
@Origin: Thank you. I so appreciate this.
LikeLike
“Abagdond@ Therefore, says respectability politics, the main thing wrong with Black people is their behaviour. Change the behaviour and Whites will see Black people as human and worthy and therefore do right by them. Stuff like police brutality and high unemployment will melt away.”
Linda says,
Is this a real group or are you just labeling any black person who thinks this way, as part of this “cargo group”?
I do agree that changing behavior will not stop white people from viewing blacks and non-whites as “less than” because racism is not dependent on a persons “character”
a black teenager could be the biggest “nerd or geek” and a white person would still somehow stereotype and profile them if they were walking down the street wearing jeans buckled up to his waist and a T-shirt.
LikeLike
I don’t think it’s unrealistic to expect that middle-class black people would have a different viewpoint on black people/race
Class and money DO affect how people think and behave. If you remove the black versus white racial dynamics, your left with money, class/status in the hierarchy.
a black person making $100,000 and up a year, are not facing the same exact issues as a black person making $15,000 to $35,000 a year.
They live in different neighborhoods, hold different jobs, and face different challenges – Middle class black people have more in common with other non-black middle class people than a working-class black person
here is an article about black middle class families who are having a hard time trying to get nannies because black women don’t want to work for them:
Nanny Hunt Can Be a ‘Slap in the Face’ for Blacks
Numerous black parents successfully employ nannies, and many sitters say they pay no regard to race.
But interviews with dozens of nannies and agencies that employ them in Atlanta, Chicago, New York and Houston turned up many nannies — often of African-American or Caribbean descent themselves — who avoid working for families of those backgrounds.
Their reasons included accusations of low pay and extra work, fears that employers would look down at them, and suspicion that any neighborhood inhabited by blacks had to be unsafe.
Very rarely will an African-American woman work for an African-American boss,” said Pat Cascio, the owner of Morningside Nannies in Houston and the president of the International Nanny Association.
Many of the African-American nannies who make up 40 percent of her work force fear that people of their own color will be “uppity and demanding,” said Ms. Cascio, who is white. After interviews, she said, those nannies “will call us and say, ‘Why didn’t you tell me the family is black?
Now, I find this type of “internalized racism” to be a problem and this is not an isolated issue within the Nanny community
black people in America have a schizophrenic psychology due to being raised with Eurocentric viewpoints.
on one hand, black people get called out for “acting white” or being seen as “sell-outs” if they criticize black people
but on the flip side, those same black people who are holding up the banner of blackness, will turn around and patronize/ support white-owned businesses before they would a black business. (I would hear the older black people say such ridiculous things about “bad service” and younger people complaining that they can’t get a “hook-up”)
article discussing this issue
http://theblackness.net/why-dont-black-people-support-black-businesses/
LikeLike
One of the things that come out of this discussion is the very image-focused nature of society. How a person looks is taken as such an important measure. I think overall, we place too much of a premium on appearance. Especially, considering that we see everything in negative…shadows.
In a sense, the color of any surface as we detect it is the opposite of the surface’s essence because it’s what the surface reflects. What we see is what bounces off instead of what it ‘eats’. The frequencies that the surface resonates with and transmutes are precisely those we won’t see reflected. This is responsible for certain ironies: plants actually use green light way less than red or blue and dark-skinned people naturally inhabit places where there is more intense sunlight.
I’ll quote a section of wikipedia on the Plato’s cave allegory:
“Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to designate names to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners.”
It was from exploring these lines of thought that I was fascinated to learn about one etymology of the word ‘black’. (etymonline.com)
“Old English blæc “dark,” from Proto-Germanic *blakaz “burned” (cognates: Old Norse blakkr “dark,” Old High German blah “black,” Swedish bläck “ink,” Dutch blaken “to burn”), from PIE [Proto-Indo European] *bhleg- “to burn, gleam, shine, flash” (cognates: Greek phlegein “to burn, scorch,” Latin flagrare “to blaze, glow, burn”), from root *bhel- (1) “to shine, flash, burn;” see bleach (v.).
The same root produced Old English blac “bright, shining, glittering, pale;” the connecting notions being, perhaps, “fire” (bright) and “burned” (dark). The usual Old English word for “black” was sweart (see swart). According to OED: “In ME. it is often doubtful whether blac, blak, blake, means ‘black, dark,’ or ‘pale, colourless, wan, livid.’ ” Used of dark-skinned people in Old English.
[…]
Meaning “fierce, terrible, wicked” is late 14c. The color of sin and sorrow since at least c.1300; sense of “with dark purposes, malignant” emerged 1580s (as in black magic)
”
So words meaning bright, shining, glittering, are tied up with the root of the word black so much so that in M.E (Middle English) it’s unclear whether blac means light or dark. Isn’t that confusing! Furthermore, many of the negative meanings came about later. That is the negativity that is still impacting people who’re called black today. (Interestingly, the ‘N word’ doesn’t have a negative origin either as I’ve certainly mentioned before. It is related to kiNiG, negus, naga, ngola, nzinga etc).
So yeah, we’re drowning in BS.
The only ‘respectability politics’ needed is the promise of self-respect despite any efforts to diminish it. Internalized racism needs to die a cruel death.
LikeLike
@ sb32199
“Why is EVERY black nation dirt poor?”
Oh… Here we are again.
Why are YOU so obsessed with that question?
In few weeks this is the second time I see you wrestling with the same thing, often off-topic and despite answers by other posters, you come again exactly with the same question, like a … broken vinyl disc.
If you skipped a previous conversation about the same issue, here are the links to refresh your memory:
Thread:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/rula-jebreal/)
Your input:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/rula-jebreal/#comment-245692)
One answer:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/rula-jebreal/#comment-245699)
Another answer from a different poster:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/rula-jebreal/#comment-245740)
Don’t expect people to engage with you again on the same subject. Probably they have already became tired with it and will ignore you! I guess you are smart enough to understand that!
LikeLike
OFF TOPIC: Why is EVERY black nation dirt poor?
That is better discussed here:
LikeLike
sb32199 is once again showing his sincere guilt and disdain for the racism, zenophobia and evil acts committed against innocent blacks throughout the history of not only America but the entire world. He doesn’t like being reminded of such iniquity or the fact that every African or black country in the world save Ethiopia was colonised and terrorised by Europeans who still control trade and banking, or that there are MANY majority black places in the world where the people are not impoverished. His ignorance is a facade for his guilty conscience.
LikeLike
[…] August 17, 2014 · by nomad · in Inverse Racism, Race, Racism · Leave a comment respectability politics […]
LikeLike
Sondis,
I meant literally. I just thought it was a funny sentence.
LikeLike
Origin,
“I don’t think Mary is suggesting that those things are “acting white”. My reading of her post was that despite doing those things the Obamas have often been denigrated (ugh).
There have been several (white) presidents who did not complete college. Are we defending against racism or jumping through more hoops because of it?”
So is the issue respectability in itself or respectability that is defined as acting white? what’s white and what’s black?
I don’t consider going to college as jumping through a hoop.
A college education is pretty much a prerequisite for being president these days. It’s pretty much a requirement for any decent paying job.
Regardless of what racists call Obama he is still the president. Most Americans whether white or black, poor or rich see education as something inherently good and respectable.
The thing with respectability politics is that racists can easily change what they consider respectable.
For instance, tea party republicans have bashed Obama for thinking everyone should go to college. They use his education against him. It doesn’t make Obama look less respectable, it just makes them look like…racists.
LikeLike
@resw77:
Were he sincere about it he’d acknowledge it and try to do something to better himself and improve the white world to make it less racist and maybe get something done about institutional racism. Not keep blaming blacks for everything.
LikeLike
And how exactly is this measured? Or should i say–where is the proof?
I could be wrong, but from reading many of your posts, you seem to have very anti-Black American leanings.
LikeLike
I don’t like this position(s). It seems so ridden through with half truths that it is impossible to counter. It seems like huge philosophical mental masturbation type stuff, in other words, mostly useless.
There are some inconvenient truths in many spheres of life. It seems like a trivial technicality to point out that a stereotype isn’t true. If you find one instance that does not fit the stereotype, then the stereotype “isn’t true” – ta da! The real point of a stereotype is that there are some or even a lot of examples of the stereotype. Enough so that the stereotype gets off to a run and maybe never stops, unfortunate as that may be. If Bill Cosby told black youths to pull their pants up, that’s a good thing. If he neglected to mention some other things, who cares? Bill Cosby isn’t Malcolm X, he’s Bill Cosby. Sagging pants happen to be disgusting and will hold anyone back who does wears them.
There’s a season to intellectualize and there’s a season to tell people pointed criticisms like pull your disgusting sagging pants up!
LikeLike
“phoebeprunelle,
And how exactly is this measured? Or should i say–where is the proof?
I could be wrong, but from reading many of your posts, you seem to have very anti-Black American leanings.”
Linda says,
anti-black American! really? Yeah, phoebeprunelle, I think you are Very wrong but that is your opinion and I have to respect that.
I might be slightly anti-American in thinking that America is not the best but anti-“black” American…can’t see it, you tell me
I wasn’t going to respond to this because you previously made a slick comment (that you’ve never followed up on),
Yeah, I missed the drift but got the gist but I did ask you to clarify, since the comment was covered in Much shade
I didn’t press because after all, I shouldn’t think other people are talking about me since they did not call my name (that’s somewhat self-centred)
I don’t like games and I’m not here for other peoples issues — if it’s something you need to get off your chest, spit it out.
nor I am not here to be anyone’s cheerleader, I say things based on how I see it, since what I say is based on my opinion
LikeLike
phoebeprunelle @ Linda
And how exactly is this measured? Or should i say–where is the proof?
Linda says,
Proof? I think that’s the wrong word. This is not about statistics or measurable quantifiers — “anecdotes” might be more appropriate
Remove race as a factor and then other issues come into play: such as trying to attain the so-called American Dream
and someone who is making $100,000 dollars and above, is a h’ll of a lot closer to the Dream than someone making $35,000 or less
How are they not facing the different issues? do they both own the same exact assets and the pay the same taxes.
Like with the article I presented, middle/upper class black Americans were dealing with finding a nannies…
how many working class black people do you know are out there trying to find a live-in Nanny/housekeeper? — Medicaid doesn’t pay for that, nor do most Insurances.
I’m sure most black people earning less than $35,000 are not thinking it’s time they looked into joining the Yacht club or worried about their Debutante ball.
I only know a few people who vacationed in Oaks Bluff (the black Hamptons) but the people I know not making much money are just trying to save up for the 1 day cruise to the Bahamas for $199 dollars
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/19/AR2009081904045.html
LikeLike
you know what, phoebeprunelle,
you don’t even have to answer my question / comment
I just re-read my comments and figured out what your problem is:
I Dared to question and criticize black Americans!?! again
Dear God, I crossed the line — I guess I better go take a seat next to “anti-black American” Bill Cosby and the other coconuts, since anyone who questions black American pathology loses their “black card” (or in my case, my part black card) sarcasm, in case it’s not obvious
LikeLike
It certainly doesn’t work. My teacher was college educated and had a truck and was stopped by police because they thought she was a drug dealer. It is really ridiculous. Or Oprah who couldn’t buy a 30,000 dollar purse somewhere in Europe because she was black. Doesn’t matter how much money or education you have it won’t make a difference to racists
LikeLike
@Curiosity:
I think the question is Who benefits from this? Who needs racism? Why racism is ingrained in the official state functions? Why racial identities are needed?
Segregation, ethnic ghettoes, areas divided by income, private security companies, militarized police forces etc. Who needs them and why?
I had great hopes for Obama but I must admit; he has done worse than George W. Bush. He signed an act that allows him (or the president of USA) detain, arrest and capture anyone at anywhere for as long time as he pleases (Nationa delfence act 2011/27). Obviously it is not because he is black but because he is…
Well, yes, he is The president. He is one of Them.
Black americans are accepted In once they become millionaires or very very famous. They became part of Them, the Ones who need all these previously mentioned things and laws. A professor means nothing, he/she may be middle class, even well doing, but you need to be a millionaire to get into the Club.
Whites never knew about the so-called War on drugs untill They came after meth. Now the poor whites and white drug addicts go to prison just like blacks. Their homes are invaded, they are stopped, tazed, shot at, just like the blacks have been for the past decades. This has been a shock for those whites for this is the first time when they face The System.
Curiously, when this began to seep into the media few years ago, it dissappeared as fast as it became news. Why? To enforce the very idea that there is nothing going on among the poor white folks. Same thing happened to the news how the middle class was dwingling, how more and more white middle class families were actually dropping to the poor class. It is an info war whose very idea is the manipulation.
“They” do not want anybody to analyse the whole situation. “They” want you talk about racism as if it exists in some weird parallel universe, attached to nothing else. That is the very idea. They want you to enforce it by declaring its existence. That is ok for Them.
What is not okay is when you connect the dots and realise that racism is a weapon, a tool designed to keep the poor as poor for ever. It is an idealogy which divides better than anything else the poor and makes their resistance and political force none existing. Racism keeps all the poor separated, keeps them building walls between them by themselves. It is divide and conquer par excellence.
As long as Malcom X and Matin Lutheer King were talking about racism and about nothing else, they were allowed travel around the globe talking and talking and talking. They were allowed to give interviews, write books and pamflets, columns etc. BUT the moment they started talk about the social injustice, poverity and its causes, they were dead.
The hatred and fear towards Black Panthers was not about the race. It was about politics. Black Panthers were leftists. They spoke about the social issues and had a political agenda. They presented direct threat to the System. That is why they also died.
That is why they need black republicans. That is why they need black thinkers how tell other blacks that it is your own fault. The black millionaires need those blacks, just like the white millionaires need all those white talking heads in the news and media to tell everybody that you could make it if you only try hard enough. It is up to you. You can do it. Yes we can!
And, yet, we all know that the game is rigged, the rules are bent and the play is fixed. Racism is one way to do that, to keep it that way. It enforces the System and make the victims victimize themselves. It separates the poor, divides them, makes them hate each other, and become politically useless mass which is fighting for the scraps under the table.
They need a black face to say that it is your own fault that you are under that table. If you only would behave, you would be invited. If you would be decent, well behaving, nicely dressed people, you would get to that table.
Only thing is, the seat costs few million dollars.
LikeLike
Linda.
>anti-black American! really? Yeah, phoebeprunelle, I think you are Very wrong but that is your opinion and I have to respect that.
I would disagree. You dont have to respect opinions, you likely have to respect others right to have an opinion, and others as people (to an extent). But not an opinion, because opinions can be wrong or worse,
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Len's journalisms and commented:
the history of respectability politics. NBNBNB
LikeLike
It’s like that saying: it’s their house, their rules, and if we’re to stay in their house, we have to live by their rules. America is the house white people have built. And most of the ways to move up is to abide by their ways.
Respectability politics is like a product from an infomercial that doesn’t work and has side-effects. If we act more like white people, we will lose a part of ourselves, self-respect as a black person. And even then, it’s hardly guaranteed, especially if you slip up once.
LikeLike
@solesearch
“Well sagging pants do kinda hold people back…ijs.”—-I was thinking the same thing. Plus I was always told that sagging pants in prison was an indication that a man was willing. If you know what I mean.
LikeLike
sharinalr (just came to the thread and only read your last comment)
I thought that prisoners were not allowed to wear belts, as belts can be used to hang oneself or others.
But prison-wear curbed that with issuing elasticated waistbands, clothes that actually fit the inmate, and wearing pants that low would be against regulations, so it’s not a definite.
“Signaling” of that type among prisoners takes many forms.
LikeLike
@ Linda
On the Donald Sterling thread, I said:
I didn’t understand this line of commentary, either, or identify “who” this was directed to. And, no, one does not have to be here to cheer on anyone else, be intent on tackling their issues — they will get thrown at you anyway, and you will get blamed for THEM.
It doesn’t matter what you say or what you mean.
It doesn’t matter where you’re coming from with it.
You are an Outsider, and simply Not Allowed to question any “givens” or take an independent-minded standpoint (and then have the nerve to share it).
You “dared”, and for a few, that is intolerable — and reason enough to prod, poke or smear.
LikeLike
Respectability-politics in my opinion mirrors being “Acceptably Black.” In both cases these RULES will always differ from the rules whites follow because whites are changing them as needed to maintain the status quo, That’s what is keeping Blacks at the bottom, continually playing the hypocritical game by the rules Whites dictate and change as required.
We will have to find a way to change the game and the rules in order to escape our bottom position. Much of that will require changing the way we think and do.
LikeLike
I agree with this post. If anything articulate, educated and materially successive black people will often receive MORE hatred and jealousy than blacks who appear more stereotypically.
At the same time I wonder if you overestimate how many people who but into respectability politics. None of the black people that I know who are doctors, professionals, or who went to Ivy League schools buy into it. Most of the Ivy League educated blacks that I know are more pro-black than less educated black people. Maybe very young black people who are naive (under 25) might or black people who are steeped in a level of Uncle Ruckus self hatred might have these ideas. The blacks that I know who have “made it” still experience racism so they know that’s not the case.
And there is no such thing as “talking white”. Language isn’t racial. I also think it’s a mistake to equate getting an education with “acting white”. The idea of doing xy and z to “act black” is just as destructive to black people. I think black people should be encouraged to get educations, not to try to prove anything to white people, that’s absurd, but to better themselves. I don’t think the Africans who come to the US and whoop everyone’s butt academically are doing so to prove anything to whites. If anything I think young black people (between the ages of 8-10 when they are old enough to understand what racism is but haven’t become so jaded by it by middle school) should simply have this explained to them. Trying to “prove” anything to whites is a waste of your precious time and energy.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
“Yup. Blacks see themselves as black and whites see themselves as normal. You will find a similar correspondence between whites and other nonwhite races. Whites are just people but everyone else is strangely different.”
Isn’t this true of all groups? You are either within the group or you are outside of it. Doesn’t everyone view anyone not like them as ‘strangely different’.
I don’t think white people are unique in how the view themselves or ‘others’. Japanese for instance, view themselves as ‘normal’ and everyone else as ‘strangely different’. But whites are uniquely powerful in their ability to enforce and police the borders of normalcy.
LikeLike
[…] Apostles: Booker T. Washington, Don Lemon, Bill Cosby, Barack Obama, Chris Rock in “Niggas vs Black People”.Glory days: 1895 to 1955, from Booker T. Washington’s Atlanta Compromise to the murder of Emmett Till. Its low point was from 1965 to 1984, from Carmichael to Cosby. It seems to be a reaction to racial nadirs, periods of White racist backlash against anti-racist reforms.In the US, Whites dehumanize Blacks, partly through stereotypes. Blacks are seen as lazy, unintelligent, violent, criminal, oversexed, etc. Most Whites think the stereotypes are true. They inform not only “realistic” television dramas, but even news reporting, policing, court cases and government policy.Therefore, says respectability politics, the main thing wrong with Black people is their behaviour. Change the behaviour and Whites will see Black people as human and worthy and therefore do right by them. Stuff like police brutality and high unemployment will melt away.There are two things wrong with that:- Click through for more – […]
LikeLike
[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
“I don’t think white people are unique in how the view themselves or ‘others’. ”
It depends on where we’re talking about. In America, whites view themselves as normal while non-whites do not. This is evident by their use of “ethnic” to describe anything different, including people who do not appear to be purely European.
Perhaps in Nigeria, China or Japan, the non-white majority view themselves as normal. Equally, if a European were raised in Nigeria, China or Japan, they probably would not view themselves as normal, b/c they would’ve learned at an early age that they are different from the majority.
LikeLike
@ biggiefriez
White racism goes beyond the xenophobia that seems to be common to most human societies. It is genocidal and dehumanizing:
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
Gee, wow, how do we handle this — 😛
It is comparing apples and oranges to compare Japanese with whites (in the US). First of all, “Japanese” refers to nationals of the country of Japan. Nationals of the United States are called “Americans”, so the apples to apples comparison is “Japanese” to “Americans”. Yes, it is also possible to say that Americans view themselves as ‘normal’ and everyone else as ‘strangely different’, But your prior statement was about “white people” not “Americans”.
If you are referring to the racial / ethnic / cultural of “white” in America, then that is a subset of group “American” and may also include persons who are not even American.
There is a rough equivalent in Japan. It is called “Yamato”. They form the majority ethnic group in Japan. There are also other people in Japan who are “Japanese”, but not regarded as Yamato, e.g.,
Burakumin – “untouchable” caste of Japan
Ainu– aborigines of Japan who predated the Yamato
Ryukyuan – Natives of the Ryukyu islands (e.g., Okinawa)
Native born Japanese descendant of immigrants in the past 100-200 years (e.g., Chinese, Koreans). Taiwanese who stayed in Japan after Japan lost Taiwan, etc. there are even some Japanese of European descent who have been there for generations.
multiracial Japanese who may be partially of Yamato descent, but not regarded as such.
Naturalized immigrants
It is possible to be Yamato and NOT a Japanese national, e.g., Sansei in the US and Brazil.
And yes, the Yamato see themselves as ‘normal’ and everyone else as ‘different’.
‘Japanese’ is sometimes used to refer to a racial / ethnic / cultural group in countries outside Japan, e.g., US, Peru, Brazil, etc. but that was not the context in which you used the term.
So, please be careful comparing ‘Japanese’ to ‘whites’. That is comparing apples to oranges. It also signifies that you harbour one or both of two stereotypes:
Perpetual Foreigner (which justifies treating non-white Americans as foreigners).
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/)
and / or
White as the Default
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-white-default/)
I reject both of these stereotypes, so I cannot accept the “Japanese for instance” argument. Besides, as I showed above, the Japanese example is spurious at best.
We are going to need a new post — Why is “Japanese” the go-to nationality and ethnic group to serve as a rationale for white American behavior?
LikeLike
Further to the above,
It might seem a bit more understandable in Japan where 98.5% of the population identifies as Yamato to see themselves as the default. Non-hispanic whites in the USA are about 63% of the population, and are an absolute minority in many sections of the USA. The justification starts to fall thin.
It might make more sense to compare the USA to Brazil, South Africa, Malaysia, Mauritius, Seychelles, Guyana, etc. Places that had aborigines, slaves, European colonization, coolies, etc. like the USA and left with a multiracial population.
Japan has also meted considerable discrimination towards their racial and ethnic minorities. They treated the Ainu like slaves and pushed them off their land. They asked Brazil if they could send their mixed Black Japanese people there (which Brazil rightfully refused – why should they be forced to accept the Japanese citizens that Japan did not want?). But, NONE of that is justifiable, even in places where the majority ethnic group constitutes 98.5% of the population.
LikeLike
@ jefe
Thanks.
LikeLike
@Jefe
Yeah but thats somewhat recently isn’t it; go back just a decade or two and its abit closer to the 80 odd percent range.
Go back even farther and it is in the 90 percent level.
Than factor in how people segregate themselves.
@Linda
You mention the african-american nannies not wanting to work for black families because of internalized racism.
But why are you arguing against their lived experience?
If they were making these same arguments about white, mystico or even rich black people I suspect you wouldn’t be trying to play down their point of view.
LikeLike
V-4, you missed 2 HUGE points
– It is still not justifiable in Japan, a place where 98.5% identify with the majority ethnic group. Why should this EVER have been justifiable in the USA to even think that way!
– the US started out at 0% white and got up to 89% white through genocide, ethnic cleansing, and some very racist immigration policies that let some in and excluded others. That is not how the Japanese became almost 99% Yamato. (Their racist immigration policy does explain how they still stay above 98% Yamato, but the USA was letting in tens of millions of people while exercising their racist immigration policies – Japanese don’t let in many immigrants period).
LikeLike
@Bulanik
“I thought that prisoners were not allowed to wear belts, as belts can be used to hang oneself or others.”—That is true. Though it has also been said that the sagging was a way of signaling. I agree with regulations that has become much harder to get by with and new forms of signaling are likely in place now.
Though I only remember the part about sagging being a form of signaling. I always look at those who sag as doing just that. I guess it is my programming.
LikeLike
Thanks, Sharina. I am only going by what I was told too, so you could be right about how sagging was construed in different setting before it entered into wider culture.
LikeLike
V-4 @Linda
You mention the african-american nannies not wanting to work for black families because of internalized racism.
But why are you arguing against their lived experience?
If they were making these same arguments about white, mystico or even rich black people I suspect you wouldn’t be trying to play down their point of view.
Linda says,
V-4, what the h’ll are you talking about?!
I brought in the article to show the points of views of working class nannies, since I was discussing how black people profile and stereotype each other.
As usual, you are clueless and missed the point.
LikeLike
“Bulanik,
It doesn’t matter what you say or what you mean.
It doesn’t matter where you’re coming from with it.
You are an Outsider, and simply Not Allowed to question any “givens” or take an independent-minded standpoint (and then have the nerve to share it).”
Linda says,
Bulanik, as the young people say,”Who ever is feeling pressed over this, can stay pressed” because I’m not here for that.
The way I see it, I live on this side of the Atlanta, I’m not brand new in America, so I am going to express my views on American culture, whether it’s white or black.
I talked about my own Caribbean/Latino culture, both good and bad… I didn’t see anyone feeling any kind of way about that.
LikeLike
@Linda
Exactly and then try to down play their experiences by calling it internalized racism etc…..whereas if they were statements about other groups and those groups tried to down play it people often say that’s trying to down play their lived experiences.
LikeLike
@Jefe
If your 98.5% of the population its pretty reasonable to think of yourself as the “norm” or “default” in that country.
LikeLike
@Linda
Or to put it another way; if it had supported the point of view in some other argument others would have used the lived experiences of those nannies as being legitimate examples.
But the moment it goes against their perspective it stops being legitimate experiences and legitimate proof and becomes internalized racism.
LikeLike
@Patrick- that White Privilege is one helluva drug!
@sam- co-sign, I would have to agree with all that you wrote.
Here’s my thoughts on respectability politics/Sambo, Uncle Ruckus and the like these folks are surviving under the hand of a white supremacist society. I think some are just playing the part like in the Django movie (Samuel Jackson character). They know the real deal regarding the white mindset so they are just keeping their enemies closer and reaping the benefits (ie. money, land, avoiding police brutality, etc.) Even at the expense of selling their soul to the devil.
LikeLike
@lifelearner: i know right. ROFLMAO @ “Stephen from Django” I thought about that too. LOL!
LikeLike
@ Linda, you said:
I talked about my own Caribbean/Latino culture, both good and bad… I didn’t see anyone feeling any kind of way about that.
My comment was in recognition of your mentioning that you had “figured out” something earlier in thread. This was because it was “ditto” my experience a few years back, too.
But I disagree: I see nothing “anti” about your outlook at all.
My belief is that this forum has enough room for commentary from the other side of the Atlantic, and from those who are more distant to American culture (if that is being discussed). Hence, Abagond’s “Welcome” mat.
I find your Caribbean/Latina perspective not only interesting, but constructive, and all the more so because it’s lived on your side of the Atlantic.
LikeLike
@lifelearner
Or they actually believe what they are saying..
Perhaps their life experiences have simply been different than yours?
LikeLike
About “sagging being a way of signaling”
There was a Boondocks episode called “Booty Warrior” far as I can tell it was based on a real life interview of a prisoner.
One of the things he mentions is that a lot of the prisoners come in nowadays with the pant sagging thing but here in prison it was basically a way of signalling you were okay with gay sex.
LikeLike
@V-4
Re:
and at the same time treat your other fellow citizens as “strangely different” and formulate policies that penalize them for being viewed that way.
Sorry, but NO. that is NEVER appropriate, even in Japan. Those people are their fellow citizens with full rights of citizenship. They are not *strangely different*.
In the USA, it is even more scandalous, as whites became a majority via genocide, ethnic cleansing and racist immigration policies. It became that way by design, not chance, and not after thousands of years of history, but in a relatively short period.
LikeLike
^ that is why “white” in America is a very curious invention.
Did you read about one of the main opposition points to the revision of the Immigration laws in 1965?
The Senate had to argue that it would not erode the national character of the USA or its cultural identity.
LikeLike
V-4 @Linda
Or to put it another way; if it had supported the point of view in some other argument others would have used the lived experiences of those nannies as being legitimate examples.
But the moment it goes against their perspective it stops being legitimate experiences and legitimate proof and becomes internalized racism.
Linda says,
once again, V-4, you continue to act like you have a clue and you are coming up short
So, I will ask you again, what the h’ll are you talking about? what argument have I presented that the nannies are against?
are you trying to say that the nannies “did not” profile and stereotype perspective black clients based on race BEFORE they even personally met the perspective clients?
and please explain how the nannies had lived experiences when the article stated that they had: “fears” that employers would look down at them, and “suspicion” that any neighborhood inhabited by blacks had to be unsafe, fear that people of their own color will be “uppity and demanding
Did the article state that the nannies had any Previous experiences working for middle/upper class black people?
or were the nannies making assumptions about individuals they did not know, work for, or meet because they are judging based on generalized stereotypes:
“Viola Waszkiewicz, a white sitter in Chicago, has cared for black children, but explained that many fellow Eastern European nannies would not.
“We come here, and we watch TV and the news, and all we see is black people who got hurt, got murdered,” she said. Most of the nannies she knows “think all black people are bad,” she said. “They’re afraid to go to black neighborhoods.”
A Russian sitter said enthusiastically that although she had never cared for a black child, but she could in this case, because little Emerie Boone, now 7 months old, was light-skinned. All sitters expressed surprise that a black couple could afford a four-story brownstone.
Sounds like the nannies are busy making assumptions (and profiling/stereotyping), just like how you are assuming that the black nannies were talking about their “real life” legitimate experiences and not their prejudices.
the words “fear” and “suspicion” are adjectives that do not translate to a FACT.
none of the nannies said that this happened to them in “real life”, the nannies were speculating based on finding out that the perspective client is black
guess which group of people used to call black people with money or education “uppity”
do you even understand the concept of “internalized racism” ?!
LikeLike
Bulanik @ Linda
My comment was in recognition of your mentioning that you had “figured out” something earlier in thread.
Linda says,
yes, Bulanik, I did see that you caught the gist on that Donald Sterling thread as well; like I said, I left that one alone because it wasn’t clarified or followed up
believe it or not, sometimes, I don’t want to have an argument about baseless issues because that distracts from the spirit of the post
LikeLike
One more thing about this “Take Japan, for instance” argument —
as though one can excuse the behavior of white Americans because one can think of another example where other people seem to do something similar.
Well, folks, that is
– simply a SPURIOUS argument and actually wrong, an apples to oranges comparison
– downright silly — Japan is hardly a good model for race relations
– morally bankrupt
which, in essence, makes it a variation of the theme of the “Arab Trader Argument”.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/the-arab-trader-argument/)
I’ve seen the “Take Japan, for instance” argument used way too much on this blog. It has become broken record dept. fodder. Maybe we need a post to kill it once and for all.
LikeLike
@Linda
As nannies I worked off the presumption this wasn’t the first time they had a job doing it.
If these are all first time nannies with no prior experience its a better example.
But I simply believed they had done the job before.
So what was it that convinced you these black nannies had no experience with black people or doing the job in general?
I’m aware of internalized racism just saying if these nannies had been saying something about potential non-black clients that supported peoples arguments, suddenly their point of view becomes totally legitimate.
When it doesn’t look good its internalized racism.
LikeLike
@Jefe
It isn’t their behavior in general people are talking about when they use these places as examples; at least not in this instance.
It simply that its not unreasonable to think of yourself as the “Default/normal” when your the majority.
Basically when does it become unreasonable to think of yourself as “normal/the default” when you are the default?
LikeLike
“V-4,
So what was it that convinced you these black nannies had no experience with black people or doing the job in general?”
Linda says,
why don’t you read the article where it states that the Agencies are dealing with the nannies “perceptions” and generalized stereotypes about race
Did any of the nannies describe an Actual experience in the article? or were they basing their perceptions on fears and suspicions that they picked up from other sources/people, as the Article very clearly stated.
what part of the words “fear and suspicion” are confusing you.. do these words translate to “past experience” —
You are Assuming that they are basing these negative perceptions on negative experiences with black families.. the article did not say that… go READ the article, before you pipe in with your own assumptions that have no merit
and the article also stated that most black middle/upper class families hire black nannies
“Numerous black parents successfully employ nannies, and many sitters say they pay no regard to race.”
This article is talking specifically about the nannies who profile, they are NOT the majority.
and also, many of these black nannies are immigrants from the Caribbean, so YES, I’m sure many are working as nannies for the first time, especially since many of their papers aren’t straight and can’t go jumping from job to job.
I really don’t feel like educating you on the “whys, whats, and hows” when it comes to black people profiling each other… it’s obvious you don’t know
and it’s obvious you have no CLUE about internal racism within black and brown communities (in the USA or outside of it), at this point, you’re wasting my time.
LikeLike
@V-4
I said several times that it is understandable why it occurs, esp. in place like Japan (and why policies in the USA tried to enforce the concept also). However, “understandable” is not the same as “reasonable”. It is not reasonable. To excuse it is morally bankrupt.
It is unreasonable when
* it is used under the guise of “cultural integrity” or “national security” as an excuse to oppress other people who are perceived as not meeting the default definition.
By “oppress”, we could include
– slavery
– genocide
– ethnic cleansing
– stripping civil rights such as voting, nationality, etc.
– imprisoning people
– killing, murder, lynching, massacre, etc. with impunity
– other forms of disenfranchisement (eg., redlining, racial steering, etc.)
– restricting or denying access to public services (utilities, transportation, public security)
– restricting or denying opportunities for education, training, certification,
– controlling and disseminating harmful or inaccurate images in the media, thereby making people have no control over how their images are portrayed.
etc.
etc.
etc.
* when how the “default” became the default is covered up by rewriting history and the nation’s cultural narrative in a way to imply that it cannot be helped, thereby releasing culpability. This includes rewriting the standards of “respectability” in a way that cannot be met by the ones regarded as not conforming to the default, or forcing themselves to “sell their soul to the devil” to at least not threaten the ones who created the default.
NOW, it is certainly possible that when the ancestors of the Yamato starting migrating to what are now the islands of Japan, they imposed a similar oppression that marginalized the prior Ainu inhabitants, until they almost wiped them out.
When Han Chinese started migrating in large numbers to Taiwan they marginalized the aboriginal populations and almost wiped them out. When Japan ruled Taiwan, they committed atrocities to both the Han Chinese and the aboriginal Taiwanese. Had the Japanese stayed (and the inhabitants became citizens of Japan), no doubt they would look for ways to force them to assimilate or otherwise wipe them out, not unlike what they do to Ryukuan / Okinawans. They would impose the “Default” on them.
Can we explain it? Yes
Is it understandable why it happens? Yes
Is it reasonable? Cannot say Yes, but generally No.
In the USA, the answer is a resounding NO. We have things like the 14th Amendment, Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 (among many others) which reiterate that this is not acceptable in the USA and goes against the grain of what it means to be an American. So, setting “White” as the “Default” is completely and exceedingly UNREASONABLE to even contemplate, much less enforce. In fact, it is most overwhelmingly UN-AMERICAN.
The fact that the USA has dropped from 89% to 63% “white” in 50 years attests to the reinstatement of America’s initiative. It has been a bumpy road for those who identified as “white”, but it is about time they give up the concept of “default”.
I rejected this concept of default in my early teens and call out on anyone who suggests that is “correct” or even “reasonable”.
LikeLike
^That is why the concept of “white” in the USA is quite peculiar. It did not exist in Europe.
LikeLike
@V-4
Sorry, but this post about “Respectability Politics” which is about behaviour. How can you say it is not about behaviour?
Even if you strip behaviour out of the argument, it is still not reasonable for the reasons stated. Even in the 1960s, when that batch of legislation came out, the President and Congress came out stating that such thinking was unreasonable.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
Sounds like typical behaviours and rationales of settler/colonizer societies.
Maintaining “cultural integrity” is done at the expense of the Others, who accordingly, experience a “cultural genocide”.
This difference, though, is between genocide as episode, or genocide as a more extended process **
So: any apparently moral gestures to the contrary are lipstick on a pig.
Projects that involve genocide, slavery, occupation, etc., are more often than not two-fold in nature:
First: physical destruction of the oppressed group, and,
Second: the imposition of the national pattern of the oppressor onto them.
The 2 behaviours are LINKED. They are meant to be.
That doesn’t mean that all invovled in that Project intended or wish to enforce cruelty, disenfranchisement, discrimination and so on against the peoples they oppress. It simply comes down to a question of interests and interests served. (Think of Queen Isabella of Spain admonishing her conquistadors’ treatment of the indigenous Americans — she wished to protect these peoples from the abuses of her own men — but did so whilst also forgetting the cultural and physical genocide her own regime committed against the Moors IN Spain not long before.)
In these kind of frameworks, it made no difference how civilized or cultured, or how “respectable” the oppressed are or “became”.
In fact a great deal will be invested by the dominant culture into maintaining utter fabrications, such as how uncivilized and uncivilzable the oppressed are..
Economics and quasi-“military” governance (the police, legal system), keeps it in place.
** [Raphael Lemkin’s theory, from “Axis Rule in Occupied Europe”.].
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
France similar to the US in that sense?
Where did Kartoffel say that about those countries?
What about the Dutch? The Germans? Just curious.
LikeLike
@ Linda
But, you see, I DO believe you.
I declined Phoebe’s invitation for the very same in 2011.
As I said earlier: there’s enough space for a broad spectrum of perspectives.
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
“Given the present cultural dominance of the West, much of the white default has bled into nonwhite majority societies. ”
Maybe if we were talking about a white Briton, Canadian, American, etc., who has immigrated to Nigeria, China or Japan, but probably not if it were a white person born and raised in such countries as a minority.
“China and Japan are far more accepting of white people than a nonwhite default model would suggest. English, a European origin language, has high status in all three countries you mentioned ”
I fully agree with that, but I draw a distinction between treatment by a majority and one’s own feeling of being normal or regular in a society. For example,
LikeLike
@Jefe,
“It is comparing apples and oranges to compare Japanese with whites (in the US). First of all, “Japanese” refers to nationals of the country of Japan. Nationals of the United States are called “Americans”, so the apples to apples comparison is “Japanese” to “Americans”. Yes, it is also possible to say that Americans view themselves as ‘normal’ and everyone else as ‘strangely different’, But your prior statement was about “white people” not “Americans”.”
I see your point, but will stick by my opinion only clarifying and/or adding:
I see that “Japanese” does refer to nationals of the country of Japan. And being American refers to nationals of the country of the United States of America. But you would agree ( I hope) that ‘Japanese” also refers to a people, a people that would exist even if Japan as a political and geographic entity disappeared. And the same is true for ethnically (White) European Americans. If America as a political, geographic entity ceased to exist, the Europeans may no longer be Americans but they’d still be ethnic Europeans with a culture, a language and a sense of themselves as a group. Certainly they arrived in America from a diverse set of European cultures, but they have blended and melded into a new whole while often (very) still acknowledging proudly they’re European roots (trust me).
Unlike Japan, America has many ethnic groups that have come to the continent for various reasons. And it is clear, at least to me that all of these ethnic groups exist on two levels. They are American and they are European (white for short), they are American and Mexican, American and African and so on. We exist on a public, political level as Americans, but privately we are European, Japanese, African, Mexican, Vietnamese, etc. And on that private level we generally seek to work, worship, live near, befriend, marry and go to school with people like us, people who share our identity, culture and perceived way of life.
And yes, I acknowledge that ‘whiteness’ in the USA is partly a construct developed to separate peoples and infer privileges/deprivations based on race. BUT it is also shorthand for American of European decent and that carries with it a whole slew of ethnic and cultural information (that is not racist) that enable European Americans to bypass a whole lot of the getting to know you stuff and distrust, typical of inter-ethnic meetings.
So yes, ethnic (white) European Americans view themselves as ‘normal’ and everyone else as ‘strangely different’. Hang out with them sometime, in say the suburbs of Milwaukee. They’ll go on about which European country their ancestors arrived from and why Obama is the worst President ever. They’re a hoot.
Anyway, I enjoy your posts Jefe, peace.
LikeLike
@ biggiefriez
Why did you pick the Japanese as your example? You are hardly the only one who does that. As Jefe noted, it is almost a Broken Record.
LikeLike
@abagond,
Any other ethnic groups would have worked, but the Japanese are notorious. Everyone knows about them and is generally aware that they are an isolated, nearly mono-ethnic and reportedly, xenophobic society. They enforce sameness – at least according to all the Jet Programme bloggers on WordPress. They view others as ‘strangely different’. It is understood and therefore time doesn’t need to be wasted explaining their society to most people who can write a cogent paragraph – like Jefe. That makes them an excellent choice for the ‘Control Group’.
That said, I am not trying to pick on them. If you’ve read any of my posts on your blog, you know I don’t perceive people anywhere as being anything other than typically human. There are no essential traits or unique cracks in our souls.
LikeLike
sb32199
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s the evil blacks who bring misery and misfortune to whites. All around the world. Right? How come the only authentic music forms created in the United States were due to blacks?
LikeLike
@ abagond
“@ biggiefriez
Why did you pick the Japanese as your example? You are hardly the only one who does that. As Jefe noted, it is almost a Broken Record.”
I think that some Americans of European descent see Japan as a very successful society – specially from the technological point of view – almost similar to themselves (Americans) but, who, in addition to that, were/are able to avoid “some mistakes” like, for example (or I should say: above all) “immigration, diversity, multiculturalism”. Review your other post for details about this way of thinking (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/the-diseased-host-model-of-american-society/)
They, Americans, were almost perfect, but the other “guy” out there surpassed them at one specific item: perfect technologically and wise enough to avoid the “parasites” trying to multiply inside the body.
100% perfect score!
Do you have a better example?
May be I am wrong, but this is what I feel those people think.
P.S.:
One interesting point would be to see if China will follow Japan’s steps or will try to emulate Western practices in relation to immigration, for example.
Some signs to watch: there are already some “African islands” inside big Chinese cities (will they grow or shrink?); the number of Chinese citizens living and doing business in Africa has already surpassed the 1 million mark (will this number grow or shrink?), etc.
LikeLike
Confirmation bias may play a role in stereotypes but there’s often some truth to them. For example, some trailer parks are neat and tidy. But many are trashy. That’s why the stereotype exists. Sometimes stereotypes are a result of the shortcomings of the people who hold them. For example, poor people might blame their poverty on others’ cheating rather than their own not working or being a single parent.
Behavior is the primary factor in success and respectability. Not everyone has the ability to be a professional athlete or university professor. But every normal, healthy person has the ability to hold a job, support their family and be an upstanding member of the community. Anyone who does those things will be respected even if they’re working a menial job. It may not be prestigious but it’s honorable. People respect integrity and humility a lot more than arrogance and a poor attitude.
LikeLike
gro jo writes:
How come the only authentic music forms created in the United States were due to blacks?
Okay. What of it? The white world knows what blacks have contributed to music. No one denies it. Now what? Does life go in a different direction because black music innovators are recognized?
What’s your point?
LikeLike
In the context of Respectability Politics, the following question is absolutely relevant.
I asked:
If whites were truly at the root of black social pathologies, there’d be a black nation somewhere on the planet that would stand apart, in defiance of the white counter-productive influence. That black nation would be a beacon for black achievement and a magnet for those who would build it and increase its prosperity.
Where is that nation? Where is the black Israel?
LikeLike
sb32199 writes: Okay. What of it?…What’s your point? Ok, I know you’re slow so I’ll spell it out for you. Black creativity is an established fact demonstrated by the artistic, technological and political achievements of blacks all over the world that compares favorably with the achievements of any other race. The Russian Empire owes a number of constructions to Abram Petrovich Gannibal a black African child prodigy who grew up to be a fine engineer and the great grandfather of the man who made Russian literature what it is today, here’s a painting of him and czar Peter the Great: http://ohlookhistory.tumblr.com/post/17257519348/i-wanted-to-make-a-brief-post-about-abram#. India and the subcontinent in general saw a number of remarkable people of African descent contribute to its culture, google Malik Ambar to convince yourself of your ignorance. The man was a builder, soldier, diplomat and administrator. He is still remembered for his skills. Africa. The Sidi nawabs of Janjira, India ran the island of Janjira from 1489 to 1948, they ruled over Jews, Indians and others for 489 years. the Mali empire played a role in its time that your Israel can only aspire to in the modern world. USA, not only did Africans create the music they also created the rice industry with the knowledge they brought with them from Africa. Cotton Mather learned of inoculation from Onesimus, an African. I suspect you are a “ni**erologist” i.e. a white ignoramus who wants to pretend he ‘knows’ all about black people without doing the work. Good luck with that. This is not the first time you’ve displayed your ignorance and it won’t be the last.
LikeLike
gro jo,
One has to wonder… if so many blacks were the intellectual force behind the world’s music, architecture, the rice industry and “inoculation”, where did all that knowledge go? Why didn’t it find its way to nations in Africa? The Caribbean?
Liberia could really use some help right now with inoculations.
Meanwhile, I got quite laugh over learning that Cotton Mather learned about “inoculations” from “Onesimus” an African from, well, he was from somewhere, not that it matters.
Cotton Mather? Really. Are you sure you want to stick with this claim?. I’d be willing to give you a Mulligan on that muffed shot.
Janjira? Yeah? So what? Blacks run Haiti too. And most of the nations in Africa. I ask again, where’s the black Israel? Where’s the black nation giving blacks the setting for success?
LikeLike
@ sb
What in the world does this broken record of yours have to do with this post!!??
LikeLike
gro jo
You should have stuck with ignoring SB. He is doing nothing, but trying to bait someone into engaging with him on something…anything because most in here have just decided he is a waste. He has gotten into several debates in here with people and do nothing more than try to pull it off topic. When he is blatantly proven wrong he switches to a new topic avoiding being proven wrong or he tries to make flat jokes about it. For example there has been several post now show that Africa and other areas of black run areas are not poor and feeble but he continues his rants.
The guy has issues.
LikeLike
Big Momma
Actually many see arrogance as a factor in success.
LikeLike
@ gro jo
I agree with Sharina. Not only is he not interested in the topic of this thread, he is not even sincerely interested In his derailment topic.
LikeLike
Big Momma
I have to ask how many poor people you know or have truly engaged in. I know quite a few through a choice to get to know them and not all or most of them seem to talk about why they are poor. There are those that express frustration over not finding a job and not being able to get one, but I have not ever heard any complain about not being rich.
Also hate to break it to you, but not all poor people are single parents and being a single parent does not necessarily contribute to being poor. Not to mention not all poor people are not working.
LikeLike
Kiwi
What gives you the idea that Big Momma is Da jokah inc.
LikeLike
?
LikeLike
abagond
If I were you I’d simply ban the racist idiot. I only responded to him in order to annoy him. I’m aware that he doesn’t know or care about any of the things he throws up on this forum. I get a perverse pleasure in discomfiting idiots like him. I know it’s cruel of me to pick on a mentally deficient person like him so I’ll stop with this parting shot. sb32199 wrote:”Cotton Mather? Really. Are you sure you want to stick with this claim?. I’d be willing to give you a Mulligan on that muffed shot. ” Ok, read it and weep. “In 1706 a slave, Onesimus, explained to Cotton Mather how he had been inoculated as a child in Africa. Mather was fascinated by the idea. By July 1716, Mather had read an endorsement of inoculation by Dr. Emanuel Timonius of Constantinople in the Philosophical Transactions. Mather then declared, in a letter to Dr. John Woodward of Gresham College in London, that he planned to press Boston’s doctors to adopt the practice of inoculation should smallpox reach the colony again.” Source of the quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Mather#Smallpox_inoculation_controversy. “where did all that knowledge go?” What?! An actual intelligent question from you sb32199?! It didn’t go anywhere, if you knew the history of the U.S civil war you would know that one of the grievances of the South was that a law had been enacted that prevented masters from claiming their slaves’ inventions as their own. I don’t need your Mulligan, but I hope you’ll do something about the lacuna in your education.
LikeLike
Why is my prior comment stuck in moderation?
LikeLike
abagond:
Therefore, says respectability politics, the main thing wrong with Black people is their behaviour.
Your post aims to show that Respectability Politics is internalized racism
and that it will not work.
We can test the claim.
We can put it another way. If there’s nothing wrong with black behavior, then somewhere in the world is the proof. Somewhere in the world there’s at least one nation that provides a home offering freedom, opportunity, a shot at prosperity and a chance for a relatively peaceful life for blacks.
If it isn’t the US, what’s the name of the nation? I would expect there to be a black Israel. But no one has identified it.
LikeLike
gro jo
In that case. Have fun. 🙂
LikeLike
@biggiefriez
It seems like you are confusing the idea of political entity and a “people”. A people can be political (we can say “American people”) or geographic (Pacific Islanders) or have ethnic / cultural / racial (or genetic) ties.
So, your point needs to be addressed at different angles.
– “Japanese” is used to refer to an ethnic group OUTSIDE of Japan. We have ethnic Japanese in Hawaii and the Mainland USA, Peru, Brazil, Argentina, etc. In Japan, they would not use “Japanese” to refer to their ethnic group, and say, exclude Ainu as being something that was not Japanese.
It is akin to “Chinese”. It is used to refer to an ethnic group in places outside China (e.g., Chinese-Americans). In China, it refers to the nationality itself, not any ethnic / cultural group. The instance in which it is used to refer to an ethnic / cultural group is when “Han” is used as the default to mean Chinese. In Japan, that occurs when they use the Yamato as the default ethnic / cultural group.
Chinese and Japanese often do assign the majority ethnic group as the “default”, but it is not *THAT* different from what white Anglo Americans do. If the Immigration and Naturalization laws had not been revised in the 1960s, we would probably be seeing White Anglo as the default American today.
Contrary to what you believe, both Japan and China are actually multi-ethnic, multi-racial societies.
So, it is akin to using the white Anglo-American default to refer to “American” ethnic or cultural group as a people. People do that, esp. outside the USA.
Regarding Japanese:
However, it appears that people have to spend and waste time explaining it to you.
“Take Japan, For Instance” blah blah blah is a broken record and is not even accurate. And it is as morally bankrupt as the Arab Trader argument.
LikeLike
gro jo,
The laugh about the Cotton Mather claim boils down to Onesimus, a figure who appears to be a figment of certain imaginations. That’s the amusing part of the story. But, if you want to believe in the Tooth Fairy, well, that’s okay.
As for your claim that masters weren’t permitted to claim ownership of the inventions of their slaves, well, that’s another one that’s good for a chuckle. When you own something, you own its output. The output could be labor, or it could be a new gizmo for picking cotton.
You seem to have taken a course in black history from Louis Farrakhan and Elijah Muhammad teaching from the book “Message to the Black Man.”
Abram Petrovich Gannibal a black African child prodigy who grew up to be a fine engineer and the great grandfather of the man who made Russian literature what it is today…
It appears the only person who seems to know anything about Gannibal is Alexander Pushkin, the writer and his purported grandson. However, it appears Pushkin had reasons for creating a grandparent who appears to be fictional.
But the existence of a black who was educated in Russia who purportedly became an engineer means that blacks raised in black nations are prevented from becoming engineers by some shortcoming found in black nations.
Maybe blacks can’t get an engineering education in black nations because engineering schools simply don’t exist in black nations. Surprise, surprise, this is true. There are no engineering schools in black nations, with the exception of South Africa.
Meanwhile, Pushkin is a well known Russian writer, but he’s not Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky or Solzhenitsyn.
Anyway, none of your rantings gets around to answering the question of why there’s no black Israel. You’re certain there’s been loads of black intellectual output over the centuries, yet none of seems to occur in black nations, and none of it seems to find its way into the economies black nations and lift them out of abject poverty.
That means your claims appear to be invalid.
LikeLike
Hey gro jo
http://hutchinscenter.fas.harvard.edu/dubois/projects/african-american-national-biography/sample-entries/onesimus-fl-1706-1717-slave-and
So much for onesimus being a figment of someone’s imagination. Then again some will believe their sh*t is chocolate. Probably why they always seem to spew it from the mouth. Lol
LikeLike
“sb32199 @ Gro Jo
Maybe blacks can’t get an engineering education in black nations because engineering schools simply don’t exist in black nations. Surprise, surprise, this is true. There are no engineering schools in black nations, with the exception of South Africa.”
Linda says,
Gro Jo, I wish you had not responded to this a’shole because he is polluting the blog with his smug misinformation.
you won’t win against ignorance…you are a masochist if you are getting any enjoyment out of communicating with this slab of rock.
I wouldn’t even respond to this except I couldn’t leave the turd that he left, sit in cyberspace unanswered.
I know for a FACT that we have an Engineering school at both UWI campuses in Jamaica and Trinidad:
Faculty of Engineering, The University of the West Indies , St. Augustine , Trinidad
http://sta.uwi.edu/eng/ugrad/ug_progs.asp
Mona School of Engineering (MSE), The University of the West Indies
Mona, Jamaica
http://myspot.mona.uwi.edu/engineering/
Gro Jo, good luck — you have the patient for the foolishness
I don’t understand why this person continues to come to this blog since he dislikes black people and he only believes what he wants to believe, since little things like “historical facts” or current reality don’t matter.
LikeLike
^ He is still here because people respond to him.
Once I saw him baiting people with deflectionary and wrong information, I just leave him alone, even when he leaves turds. Just ignore those turds. No one believes them anyhow.
LikeLike
Linda, as I said above, I love to read ni**gerologist nonsense. The poor guy is probably some nonentity toiling away at some meaningless job who comes here to feel important. I’m not proud of it but I do relish torturing them with facts. The poor boob doesn’t realize that Pushkin was the precursor of all the writers he apparently knows only by reputation. A ‘white’ genius would invent a fictive black great grandfather? Who would have thought it? Was there an affirmative action program in Russia at the time that a ‘white’ aristocratic genius would want to claim kinship with people widely despised? Such stupidity is truly a marvel to behold. As I said in my comment to Abagond, the quote from wikipedia regarding Cotton Mather was my parting shot at sb or should it be BS? I did not respond to him in order to debate him but to draw him out and make him drop his Mr. know it all mask. I’m quite happy to have him spout the nonsense he wrote above. A number of fine engineers have been educated in Africa, and the Caribbean, there was no need to refute BS’s mad rantings with facts. Until Abagond puts him out the only thing to do is provoke him to make his absurd claims more and more surreal.
LikeLike
Jefe, trust, I am taking a seat and leaving this one alone
Gro Jo
like I said, “better you than me” because I don’t have the patience for bumba and other cloth.
LikeLike
@sb32199
As to Gannibal, you’re the only one who thinks he’s a mythical, unknown figure. There still exist his myriad writings, myriad first-hand accounts about him, so quite a lot is known about him, contrary to your ignorant beliefs.
As to African engineering schools, there are many. Nigeria, for example, has several. After all Nigeria is one of the world’s fastest growing countries and is undergoing a building boom.
As to a “black Israel,” no there is no black country whose government occupies another country, regularly annexes its land, bombs innocent civilians and keeps such people under a system of apartheid. So for once, you’re right about something.
I can’t help but wonder why you need to constantly denigrate other people to defend evil and malicious acts. I generally don’t believe in these things, but have you tried an exorcist?
LikeLike
@Kiwi
But don’t a lot of Native Tribes names loosely translate as “The People”?
If they are the people; than what is everybody else?
@gro jo
Black people created the music forms because of oppression; they had no other paths for opportunity and were denied access to the main stream culture as being part of the community.
So they created their own; notice as racism and oppression decreases no new music forms have popped up lately and our styles/fashions seem to be stopping.
Some one from this decade could hang out in the last one and you probably wouldn’t notice.
LikeLike
-There are engineering schools all over Africa and the Caribbean. Medical schools too. There are many examples of majority black nations that are peaceful and prosperous. It is to be expected that nations who were once colonized and transformed by racism would have missteps on the road to healthy self-government, just as the United States did. With the exception of Haiti, I think most black nations have around 50 years of independence. Progress takes time. Is there room for improvement? To be certain, but needing to improve is not unique to black people or black countries.
-I would not put Israel up as an example of the perfect “white” nation. The Nordic countries are more peaceful, tolerant and inclusive, as I see it. Aside from which, there are no perfect nations, because there are no perfect people.
-I don’t think sb is white, either. I think sb is a black man. And, as carefully as he chooses his words, I don’t know that abagond has ever explicitly stated his “race” either, but sometimes I kinda think he may not be black. (I’m a longtime lurker) I recall him saying he originated in the Caribbean, which doesn’t necessarily = black.
-When I was in a southern African nation, I talked with many black Africans who expressed nothing but reverence and respect for black American culture. They IDOLIZED us, actually. They knew black celebrities better than I did! To paraphrase, “You guys are amazing. We had many problems with the whites too, but you guys turned it around and you write songs the whole world sings. We make music too, but nobody knows our music and culture like they know yours. What is it about you guys? We want to be like you.” That blew my mind.
-There’s nothing innately or collectively wrong with us. We’re people trying to survive like everyone else…we just do it with unapologetic swag. In spite of it all. We don’t need to be so hard on ourselves or compare ourselves to anyone else, because nobody else has been in our shoes. The debates on how best to survive racism usually completely miss the point…which is that racism is the problem.
*climbs off soapbox and goes back to lurking*
LikeLike
V-4 wrote:
@gro jo
“Black people created the music forms because of oppression; they had no other paths for opportunity and were denied access to the main stream culture as being part of the community.”
No, they had their own musical culture plus those other cultures they encountered in the Americas, they mixed them together and came up with something new. I don’t believe in the claim that oppression was responsible for the impetus to create. The individuals who created the music forms associated with the USA did so for the same reason that European and Asian musicians created the music associated with these territories. People create music because it is their nature to do so, oppression and the reactions to it may, at best, serve as themes but can never explain why people sing or play an instrument. What has oppression got to do with scatting?
LikeLike
gro jo, resw77, alilbitofthat, etc
-There are engineering schools all over Africa and the Caribbean.
If they exist, they exist in name only. The complete absence of engineering know-how in Africa is the proof. Engineering of virtually everything in Africa is handled by firms based elsewhere. There simply are no black engineers performing actual engineering tasks in Africa. If there were, nations like oil-rich Nigeria would have managed to supply electricity and indoor plumbing to the entire nation.
Instead, only half the population has electricity and indoor bathrooms. That defines backwardness and an absence of technical competence.
Medical schools too.
The prominent medical schools in the Caribbean are white-run operations that educate mainly white students from the US who were unable to win admission to US medical schools.
There are many examples of majority black nations that are peaceful and prosperous.
Name a few of them.
LikeLike
@ sb
You are the one with stereotypes. You make it clear on this thread that you only accept facts which fit your degraded, stereotyped view of Blacks. Instead of disproving what people say, you just deny that it is true or minimize it. That is how bigots think.
LikeLike
abagond,
Life itself disproves many claims made by posters here. If there were any black engineering schools in Africa turning out competent black engineers, their engineering work would be visible for all to see.
Where is it? What have these black engineers designed and built?
I continue to ask for an example of a black nation that shows off the best of what blacks can do. No nation is above reproach, but many nations are examples of the benefits of engineering. The infrastructure is an obvious example that every nation can point to.
Roads, cities, transportation, bridges, airports. telecommunications. clean water, healthcare, agriculture.
Where is the black nation that has a handle on the basics listed in the preceding list?
LikeLike
@sb32199
What do your remarks have to do with this thread? Are you trying to offend, insult and humiliate people for the hell of it?
I’m not an engineer so I’m not familiar with the field or where the best schools are etc. What I do know (and which I bet you don’t) is that one of the world’s very best economic minds is Dambisa Moyo, a Ugandan economist and writer.
Moyo has written fascinating material about the way that Western nations use aid as a way of draining resources from African countries and keeping them from establishing their own governance structures. Her book ‘Dead Aid’ was one of the most controversial, thought provoking and fascinating things I’ve ever read. She’s also written extensively on China’s economic performance and future as the dominant superpower.
I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that you’ve never heard of her or of the millions of other brilliant minds from African countries,. You’re blind and deaf to any evidence that disrupts your worldview.
LikeLike
OFF TOPIC: Broken Africa stereotype
That is better discussed here:
LikeLike
abagond, none of this is off topic. The commentary all boils down to what blacks believe. What blacks think, and how that relates to the state of the black experience today.
All relevant material and all relevant opinion.
LikeLike
wordynerdygirl writes:
I would be willing to bet a great deal of money that you’ve never heard of her or of the millions of other brilliant minds from African countries,. You’re blind and deaf to any evidence that disrupts your worldview.
You’d lose the bet. I wrote a response to your post, but abagond removed it.
LikeLike
@ sb
No, you were just spewing your usual bigoted shit.
Your point was that Blacks did not suffer from internalized racism, that the stereotypes were all too true. But you made it clear that your stereotypes are just that: stereotypes. You showed that by how you did not take any counterclaims seriously. After that there was no point in letting you further derail this thread. So I declared Broken Africa off topic – for a second time – and therefore deleted your comment to Wordy.
LikeLike
As a side note. At least he now acknowledges what he says is an opinion and not a fact. Wish He Knew The Difference Between. The two.
LikeLike
Jefe said:
It might seem a bit more understandable in Japan where 98.5% of the population identifies as Yamato to see themselves as the default. Non-hispanic whites in the USA are about 63% of the population, and are an absolute minority in many sections of the USA. The justification starts to fall thin.
I never get why it is so often mentioned, on the blog, that because American whites are ~60% of pop. vs [something like Jefe’s comparison] that this renders their majority status as weak – it doesn’t.
It’s not about whether a group is 99% or 51% of the pop. It matters what you do with what you’ve got. If you have dominant control of the major institutions and the capital, you’ve got it made. You have a lot of power. Sheer numbers of people can hit diminishing returns in ways which are too boring to mention to you all, since you surely know some of these ways. Of course, all of you are aware of the power description I gave as well, so, why then, do people persist in harping on whites not being huge in sheer numbers as some sort of incredible factor in their ability to wield and maintain advantages and power structures!?
Power isn’t something you inherently have simply because the physical number of your people is greater than another group. Power isn’t something you inherently lack simply because the physical numbers of your group are less than some other group. Plenty of factors go into power apart from sheer numbers. The South African racial pop numbers were probably way skewed to blacks, it didn’t help them overcome Apartheid.
Anyway, last point: if the remaining 37% of the American pop. are facing
poverty
apathy
disorganization/fragmentation
depoliticization
naivety (electing Obama will be like Jesus rapturing us to Heaven, Yeah!!!)
incarceration
or just pursuing their own path
etc, etc, etc.
then it is easy for the 63% percent to keep power.
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
Indeed.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
re: majorities and so on…
It was chilling so it’s easy to remember: Kiwi mentioned once how East Asian profs or doctoral advisors (It was one one or the other,I think) make a point of being unfair (not just harder on) with East Asian American students just to show their white colleagues how disgustingly subservient they are willing to be to white status quo, or what whites think the status quo should be.
LikeLike
Well for the Dutch, race AS_SEEN_BY_US_AMERICANS, does not really matter, for instance research into “black” teen motherhood had the following categories of “black” mothers: 1Surinamese, 2Antillean, 3West African, 4East African and 5Chinese (who turned out to be a hard to research kind of black teen moms, by the way), the school system counts ALL children with at least two generations of US born direct ancestors as whites, and higher class black US immigrants and expats have told stories about not just being the only black person on certain events, but feeling as if they were the only person who noticed. It may not be perfect, but it is different.
On the other hand Willy Overtoom has said that he is stopped by the police quite often, but that nothing nasty ever happened after that, mind you, having white family there and reacting like they would, not strange, not suspect might help. Or maybe law-abiding citizens have really nothing to fear in the Netherlands, from the police, that is.
LikeLike
@ Legion
I deleted your comment. Moyo is off topic here.
LikeLike
Geez, are you angry. You don’t delete Origin’s off topic comments, do you?
LikeLike
It’s nice to be so arbitrary in your moderation, huh? 🙂
LikeLike
@Legion,
My point was not about power. Indeed, a group could represent 16% of the population and hold the reins of power.
It was about seeing one as the default and the rest “strangely different”. And it was about using Japan as the go to place to illustrate why what happens in the USA is reasonable, or even acceptable.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
My point was not about power.
Got it.
The thing is projecting one’s own group as “the default” is a measure of power, despite this not being an explicit point that you were making. In America or any society where some group has dominant control they can easily construct a narrative about being “normal” or “the default”, that narrative fits comfortably as a concomitant of the power previously established, in plenty of cases, through much spilled blood.
LikeLike
@gro jo
Of course they have their own culture before hand but by and large when immigrants lack oppression by the second generation they have almost totally assimilated.
Look at any stable culture or tribe that’s separated from much of the world for one reason or another, they can be left alone for two thousand years and not change.
Basically in a land that lacks oppression why go the hard way to success via creating entire new forms of music, fashion and culture when you can just become an accountant?
LikeLike
@Legion
I don’t think that is the reason. Since sb32199 has now been banned, he has to make sure that he treats everyone the same once a tangent derailment has been declared off topic.
However, when that occurs, I feel there should be another post under which to continue that side argument / discussion.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
White people and individuals; really it depends a lot on how in touch with their ancestry and familial history. For the ones who don’t know anything about their personal history they probably are more likely to identify as just white.
LikeLike
@ Legion
LikeLike
@Legion
So why bring up Japan to excuse or justify what goes on in America? Why not use, say, Malays in Malaysia, or whites in apartheid South Africa? (Countries, by the way, formed under European colonialism and involving native aborigines, slaves and coolies and their descendants.)
LikeLike
Kiwi said:
LOLZ! I love how this describes so many white commenters here perfectly.
“I’ve been attacked – jumped by blacks.” – biff, Big Momma/Da Jokah/Church’s Chicken/duckduckgoofs, sb32199
Abagond said:
White racism is irrational and self-serving. It cannot be “disproved”, only confirmed. Stereotypes are based on confirmation bias. So all it takes are a few bad apples for Whites to think their stereotypes are true: “I’ve been attacked – jumped by blacks.”
Recalling the experience that I related in the China thread. Is it not trivial or skirting the trivial to point out the irrationality of an emotional response? Emotions drive us, very strongly. In the West it’s a fashion to ignore the emotions and pretend to be rational 100% of the time. The response that I had (see China thread) was rational in one way and irrational in another:
if I truly felt East Asians were a threat to my welfare then it made sense to avoid them. But was it rational to think East Asians were a threat to my welfare? Quite frankly, at the time, I was in a bit of a struggle over being rational and just being expedient about safeguarding my own welfare and dignity. As I related in that thread, I had to go through a whole lot of self-work to correct the mindset that was taking hold and even then there was still some residue left, negative residue.
I’m not suggesting we trip over ourselves with analysis paralysis by considering all and every nuance of human psychological responses to interaction with the environment but I did want to remind that neat and crisp summaries of the “irrationality” of people can be a little to neat and crisp.
I’m glad I worked through my own little flirtation with racism on my own, if some intellectual goody two-shoes had shared their pearls of wisdom with me about how “irrational” was, well let’s just say, the holier than thou, or should I say more high falutin than thou tone just wouldn’t have solve my problem. But that rational person would have felt quite superior to me.
—————————————————————————————————–
I vaguely recall duckduck mentioning he had been attacked by blacks. It’s a pity indeed that he wasn’t able to fully recover from the loss of personal power he suffered in that moment. When you’ve been stripped, it takes deep emotional reserves to come back from the fall. Racism, in that context, is like a social-fast-food equivalent of coping with what happened, if it was an attack of some sort. As we all know, quick and easy solutions are often sought for a host of things, and there is a level of rationality in that, like it or not.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
Okay, okay, I got it. No Moyo, No broken Africa.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
sb was banned!?
Awesome! 🙂
LikeLike
@sb32199
“Life itself disproves many claims made by posters here.”
Such as?
You still haven’t proved one of your ignorant beliefs nor refuted anyone else’s claims with actual facts. You opinions don’t count b/c you’ve shown over and over again that they are largely inaccurate.
If I were a bigot like you, I’d assume that all white Americans were just as ignorant and evil as you appear to be.
LikeLike
V-4 wrote: “Basically in a land that lacks oppression why go the hard way to success via creating entire new forms of music, fashion and culture when you can just become an accountant?” I can’t see Miles Davis, the son of a wealthy dentist, aspiring to being a bean counter, same goes for Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie or Louis Armstrong. You reduce them to sociological clichés and rob them of their individuality. As I said before, the oppression of their people could only explain some of the themes they would find interesting and meaningful but not the spark to create. The problem with the whole respectability racket is its worshipful stance vis-à-vis bourgeois norms. Miles Davis had the resources to go to school and become a respectable member of the black bourgeoisie but that would have been counter to his nature. Nobody is forced to create, it comes naturally to some.
LikeLike
@gro jo
Yeah but we are talking about generalizations and sociological waves; without the group to carry them and push it forward the individuals rarely make much difference in their creations.
LikeLike
V-4 You can’t reduce the black experience to oppression alone, you haven’t told me what scat singing has to do with oppression. Gauguin didn’t ditch his job as a stockbroker to paint because he was oppressed. Your tendency to reduce the black experience to a single dimension distorts it. Blacks don’t wake up groaning oh gawd I’m oppressed again. They get up wondering what they’ll do with their lives, those with talent create and others, including non-blacks, learn to appreciate and emulate what they have to offer. The same applies to artists of any other race. Everybody creates regardless of circumstances. Some periods of history are more fecund than others but I don’t think you can say it’s because people are suffering.
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
But that begs the question: Why racialize the issue?
Again, indeed!
Yeah, I thought about that question as I typed up my response but decided not to raise it so I could keep some brevity. But it’s a good question. My answer (which was floating in my mind) was one possible answer of, perhaps, many answers:
the mechanism of hate needs a “practical” or concrete outlet to manifest in an effective manner. It’s also handy if one can hate in a manner that elevates the hater, it helps reduce cognitive dissonance.
Were they men? Let’s stay away from them, too.
I thought (as a quick and unsophisticated example) about women raped by men; It won’t be practical to just hate men. If one can latch onto something else though you just might get a pass from large segments of society and from your own psyche. So maybe the rapist was a different “race” from the women, ok, she possibly has that fast food option opening up to her now, whether she takes it or not is up to a bunch of other factors.
In my own case, the preexisting idea was there that a good deal of East Asians (perhaps of a certain generation) are racist toward blacks. That idea had been in my head for ages, but it was pretty benign, or so I thought. When my incident occurred that idea was set to hatch into bitter hate. So, that’s one idea about, why racialize the issue?
I think you know the answer. Because we live in a racist society.
In a secular sense, and keeping to America, yeah the racism is sick and very present and very active. In a broader sense, well, a Buddhist informed sense, humans are part nuts, in terms of the delusions and cravings they harbor. Some of the hate expressed is the manifestation of these delusions and cravings. “Being real” though, I think it’s fine to deal with a lot of things on the secular level. I’m not, in other words, desirous of holding hands with racist cops and singing folk tunes. I think they should be tossed in jail, the ones guilty of abuses. They can sing repentance songs from their jail cells.
Further, “we live in a racist society” is an oversimplification of the characteristics of the society. It’s not all about race. I’ll keep to a minimum since, I now grow shy of preaching to you, in turn. Also, I’m sure you appreciate that many factors go into the America you see before your eyes every day. I guess my feeling about racism in America is that it won’t be solved just by directly addressing actual racism. It will be solved by altering institutions that simply alter outcomes and eventually soften or eliminate racist outcomes. I think I’ve alluded to that in this thread and I know I’ve been explicit about this view at other times on other threads.
An example of being explicit about it was those bloody stupid grant applications by black med students that are not anonymous. The scum white doctors that turn down the grants should be doing so on scientific merits, not because they know the applicant is black. Of course, culturally, the scam that we’re supposed to believe is that those doctors in high positions are exalted humans incapable of base belief systems like racism. Poppyc0ck, of course! Las Casas was a dominican friar, “a man of God”; he was an intellectual father of the idea that Africans should be used as slaves in the New World. Exalted men are capable of barbarism too, they just carry it out in a style more suited to their position.
—————————————————————————————————
It won’t compel the emotions for very long to engage in prejudice of people with freckles but unfortunately their just is more traction, for lots of people, to pick on the skin colour thing as a launch point for hate. King said, “maximum phenotype difference” or something close to that. Humans reach further when they drive their emotions with a compelling story, even an irrational one.
I hope that was useful Kiwi, I went on for longer than I thought I would.
LikeLike
*there
LikeLike
@gro jo
It basically comes down to the “Third man” bit:
Harry Lime: Don’t be so gloomy. After all it’s not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love – they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly.
LikeLike
Legion,
I am going to throw a question out about that that is not directed at you per se. but about discussing how to deal with similar experiences. Maybe there is a way you can discuss it on a more impersonal level or something.
As I said before, I have been violently attacked by both whites and blacks on many many occasions. Some required treatment in the emergency room and left me with permanent lifelong unhealed injuries that I have had to deal with and manage to this very day. So, I have daily reminders of events that happened decades ago.
But, in what might seem very curious to you, I never racialized these events. I have never looked at whites or blacks as harbingers of violent evil on a personal level along racial lines. I have also experienced Asians treating me in some very nasty ways, but in general, those encounters did not escalate into violence (although a few caused some visceral emotional responses in me, to be sure – they felt violent).
Now, you had mentioned that racializing an experience is a “natural”, “normal” or even “reasonable” thing to do, a byproduct of human emotion. While I admit that it is common and feels normal or natural, I challenge the assertion that it is reasonable.
Now, I am not trying to be high and mighty. I did have another reaction (which I will mention further below). But let me mention something about my brother first.
My brother experienced some bullying by both whites and blacks, but he got mostly in fights with whites to get them to accept him into their groups. Then, later, in high school, he had a violent encounter with a group of blacks, an event that he racialized. Later, he teamed up with a group of white boys, and they would go around surrounding neighborhoods and commercial areas and terrorize blacks. Actually, this development in him caused he and I to form a rift on this issue. In fact, we have never been able to discuss race relations, even to this day.
–> but I would not be surprised if some of those boys he hung out with became policeman just so that they can go around and harass and terrorize blacks.
Now, while I did not racialize those violent attacks per se, I did do something else. I started to see the USA as a very violent place and a place where people attack and mistreat others for purely racist reasons (and it is not just a black or white issue either). As I learn more about US history, it only confirms the belief I had about that. Now, is that confirmation bias working? or is it really what the evidence says? I don’t know.
But, it was strong enough to propel me to seek ways to leave the USA. And once I did, I never went back (to live). When I visit and touch down on the ground, I suddenly feel this culture of fear and violence and intense racism permeating the whole place. Is it simply an emotional reaction to past traumas? Do I need to seek psychological help on this? Whatever it is, it causes me to feel the need to get what I need to get done and leave as fast as possible.
In most other countries I have visited, I never felt this overwhelming emotion of fear and violence permeating the place (with the possible exception of Brazil). I loved Brazil and want to go back, but I did feel that there is constant tension all the time that could erupt into violence at any second.
Sorry, I also felt it when I visited Xinjiang in NW China. I felt intense distrust between the Han and the Uighur that seemed so tense that it could also become violent at any moment. But again, Xinjiang is a place I would love to go back and visit again.
Anyhow, I did not racialize the violent episodes I had in the USA, but I did brand the country violent and racist as a whole. I guess you could say that I “nationalized” the experience. The byproduct is that Americans might see me as somehow not patriotic (or at least not nationalistic). I am not saying that that is any better than racializing these experiences, but I am saying that racializing nasty encounters is not the only “normal” reaction possible.
So, in the USA, if one racializes a particularly nasty experience, it may lead one to assume and adopt racial and racist attitudes. But we don’t have to necessarily racialize those experiences. But in the USA, it as viewed as being normal, natural, even reasonable to do so.
Maybe we should ask, why is that?
LikeLike
Sorry, I just read your reply to Kiwi and noticed that you addressed a couple of those issues.
Now, I wonder what to do about my problem. I recognize that instead of racializing my experiences, I nationalized them, and often feel compelled to avoid Americans lest they bring back those emotional visceral feelings I have. When I encounter Americans, I try to avoid discussing the USA in order to avoid those sensitive topics. I dread going to the USA because those issues hit me smack in the face when I am there.
LikeLike
I just thought of an example.
My mother (when she was alive) had a coworker that had been raped in the Philippines by a Japanese soldier when she was about 12-13 years old. But, her reaction to that was to avoid men her entire life. If a male colleague put his hand briefly around her shoulder, she went into a near panic.
So, for her, it was not an experienced that she nationalized or ethnicized, but one that she genderized and sexualized. One might view *THAT* reaction as one that needs psychiatric help.
But why does that need psychiatric help, but racializing an experience does not? One response is viewed as abnormal, the other as normal.
I purport that there is a psychiatric illness permeating throughout all of America to some extent or another. But, as it is viewed as being normal, it is not receiving any psychiatric treatment.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
Maybe we should ask, why is that?
I attempted an answer above. And yes asking why makes sense.
But, in what might seem very curious to you, I never racialized these events.
I totally accepted that you did not racialize those past assaults. If I pressed you about it before, and I’m not sure that I did, then really it was just a little pressing. It wasn’t that I thought you were covering.
Now, you had mentioned that racializing an experience is a “natural”, “normal” or even “reasonable” thing to do, a byproduct of human emotion.
I was just pointing out a problem with a hard and fast concept of what is rational. I was pointing out that one’s own cognitive appraisal can bend and twist the experience to make personal sense out of it. What I said about duckduck was an example of this cognitive appraisal at work. My own experience was a wrestle with my own cognitive appraisal.
Anyway, getting back to indirect forms of countering racism:
I’m reminded of a Frederick Douglass quote (I think it’s him that said it). I think the commenter Michael Cooper posted it recently. Something about it being easier to bring up children well, rather than fix adults later. It would be nice to just shrink away the messes that we have today. Talking endlessly about them … I wonder about the utility of that and I still dislike the original (Abagond’s) post.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
Now, I wonder what to do about my problem.
I don’t see why you have to do a thing about it, you don’t live there anymore. It just sounds like a very costly project, like you would have to expose yourself to Americans. That will be expensive since you are no longer domiciled there.
LikeLike
@Legion
I wish it were that simple.
It forced me to make some very difficult decisions. When my parents were on their death beds, I resisted the idea of moving back to the USA. My brother has resented that ever since and threw all sorts of cogs in my path until I was forced to do something that caused him to totally cut off contact with me.
Maybe if I were to move back to the USA, I would have to see a psychiatrist first. Ferguson, MO looks just like the place where I grew up. Why do I want to go back to a place like that? It’s like moving back in with a violent spouse.
But where does one go?
I still carry the USA passport which reminds me of my attachment there (it is like carrying the marriage certificate with your abusive spouse). And what do I do when I run into Americans? I try my best to avoid those topics.
I even thought seriously about giving up my USA passport, but the alternative options looked bleak and possibly even worse. I feel like I have been in unresolved limbo land for a long time.
LikeLike
I also experienced a lot of violence from whites, as much as, if not more than from blacks.
LikeLike
@ Jefe:
You were physically assaulted countless times? This is the first time I’ve been reading this. I’m so sorry for what happened.
LikeLike
Kiwi,
I am not talking about individual neighborhoods, I am talking about the whole place, the whole country, pretty much everywhere.
Of course the nature and intensity varies, but it is so much ingrained in the culture.
LikeLike
The whole fallacy behind respectability politics, I think, is that there are plenty of black people who are “respectable”, or rather they do not fit the images that are so deeply ingrained in the racist psyche or that they are more than what many people think they are. The latter falls on deaf ears because people gravitate towards the simplest and most convenient images due to fear and laziness.
I see it like this. You can have ten black people. Nine of them dress well, are very articulate, very intelligent, well mannered, etc. But there’s one that wears oversized clothing, baggy pants, speaks ebonics, has that swagger and image that would automatically cast him as the typical ‘thug’.
As a side note, black people who do dress well, speak great English and are well mannered does not or should not automatically mean they’re acting “white” just like the opposite should not hold any weight either. But I digress.
Racism will take one look at that one person and will declare him to be a representative of most or all black people, ignoring the nine other people who do not fit that image. That’s how this society operates. The minority of black people who fit the negative stereotypes are the ones that society will pay closer attention to than those that don’t. And many people will talk about them as if most black people need to get their s**t together when many of them already have their s**t together.
LikeLike
@Brothawolf
Exactly!
LikeLike
@ Brothawolf
Exactly! White racists will always find the worst Blacks – welfare cheats, drug dealers, psychopathic killers, ignorant dumbasses – and base their stereotypes on them.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
Ferguson, MO looks just like the place where I grew up. Why do I want to go back to a place like that?
Because you have unresolved business and you want to resolve it. You say the situation is not simple and now I see that.
LikeLike
Great post!!!
If there’s one thing I can’t stand it’s respectability politics. White youth culture with 20 piercings and tattoos, sagging skinny jeans, loose t shirts and hippy hair is counter culture, it’s alternative, rock n roll. Black youth culture is shameful, “pull up your pants, you’re disgusting, you deserve to die for it.” I don’t know any young Black men who attend job interviews in that attire; it’s casual wear, once again, their youth culture, and yet it’s demonized as though it’s worn to job interviews, church, etc. The reason why is because anything Black is associated with crminality. That’s why Fergie is edgy while Mary J is ghetto. It’s pure hypocrisy!
Thank goodness the young are well accustomed to telling old finger waggers where to go.
There’s simply no way to measure a stereotype and they have usually been repeatedly disproven by statistics, at least when it comes to research I’ve done on the AA community, even the genesis of these stereotypes are usually part of hateful propaganda campaigns, particularly in America after emancipation to spread fear. But people will swear they’re true because of the worst of a community in some terribly poor neighbourhood they exploit to project on to an entire ethnicity. Whateva!
LikeLike
@Kiwi
In the US anyways; White and Black people are the most violent and criminal by a pretty large margin.
Got some issues with the natives but that’s usually alcohol related.
Once you get past those two groups the drop in violence, murder, rape etc….is insane.
Most people would consider men more violent etc…than women but once you get outside of the white/black environment the majority of men are actually quite abit less violent than white women.
Always thought it was basically genetics to some extent; more testosterone, men get used a lot more in wars etc…..less general value than women.
But a lot of that still applies to the non-white/black cultures and they don’t have the same problems we do.
@Ebonymonroe
Never heard of that punk kid who got run over and killed by a jock who didn’t get into any trouble and just went on to play football in college or that goth girl who got beat to death for being goth?
Hell or even that bit with Romney who bullied a long hair so much back in college that he committed suicide?
White culture is not nearly as accepting of differences as you might think it is.
LikeLike
@Ebonymonroe
Another example to throw on that; was until fairly recently think about how geeks and bullying used to be in the US.
LikeLike
I’m sorry V-4 but I disagree with your comparison. There aren’t entire campaigns that push the idea that rock kids are worthy of death because of their youth culture. The Native American community has the highest incidence of rape so it’s not just the White and Black community, and violence in the Black community is largely an offshoot of the drug economy in poorer neighbourhoods which has resulted in gμn crime, but that’s considered an economic problem. There’s no equilavent of a Trayvon being worthy of death because of his hoodie in rock and punk circles. They even made excuses for columbine and blamed the of M Manson not the kids. Lastly Women are given
longer sentences for the same crimes, are most at risk for exploitation, are swept under the rug when raped and killed in the army while serving their country, in fact, other than the default of women having full custody of children in most cases, the idea that women are more valued is also just your opinion.
I say this respectfully, but I’m not into debating with the resident “not reallys” on Abagond, so we’ll just stop by agreeing to disagree.
LikeLike
Melissa Harris Perry had a great piece this morning on respectability politics:
http://on.msnbc.com/1vxvZZQ
LikeLike
Melissa Harris Perry! @: o O ) >
LikeLike
Melissa Harris Perry always brings it.
LikeLike
Brothawolf:
“The minority of black people who fit the negative stereotypes are the ones that society will pay closer attention to than those that don’t. And many people will talk about them as if most black people need to get their s**t together when many of them already have their s**t together.”
whoa whoa Brothawolf!
Let me put that mic on ice! You’re lucky you dropped it, when you did, because you would have gotten burned, being you smoked it! @ : o O ) >
LikeLike
“If you buy into it, it’s almost as if you’re constantly auditioning for a role in life. Anyone has a right to dismiss you if they think you aren’t dressing the part. It’s ridiculous.”
I like this a lot along with Origin’s other comments. You gain so much when you stop worrying about playing by the oppressor’s rules and values.
I find it’s actually quite easy to intimidate white males in authority positions because they’re so used to being treated with respect and deference that they actually don’t deserve, they are so ignorant of how most people in the world experience life, and their privileged lives have contributed to extremely stunted levels of inner strength and character. They also have extremely large insecure and fragile egos.
I’ve experienced white men and women both acting visiblly freaked out and guilty, not able to meet my eyes, when I speak out against racism. Probably because they see they were wrong in their racist ideas about me and my ethnic group, that we are stupid, less human, etc., as well as about me personally. Since I am European looking for a person of color they didn’t expect that people like me see them as racist, and that shows that they can’t trust their perceptions of anyone and upends their world.
On another note, I was in a courtroom and a public defender was talking to his dark skinned Mexican American teen client, looking at him appraisingly, and telling him that he should wear pants to court instead of jeans and saying all magnanimously that he could help him with that if cost was a problem. I was just laughing inside because I can’t imagine people of color judging against someone for wearing jeans to court. Certainly that goes against Mexican American values. But people of color obviously had no hand in creating the legal system that takes away our property and freedom without representation.
LikeLike
@Linda
“That’s why Mexicans or Latin Americans will deny they have African ancestry (until it’s convenient) because Africans represent the lowest group on the totem pole — ”
This is also why many people don’t want to admit to Indigenous ancestry, because without access to Mexican American history and Ethic Studies classes they don’t have a way to think about themselves positively.
Also, in Mexico “respectability politics” DID work for social mobility aka the “Mestizo” racial project. At the time Lincoln was president Mexico had a full Indigenous president, Benito Juarez. Since he spoke Spanish and turned his back on Indigenous culture for Mestizo culture, it was fine to move up socially. If memory serves he even forcibly moved the Yaqui people from Northern Mexico to the Yucatan in a kind of Mexican Trail of Tears.
LikeLike
@Big Momma
“But every normal, healthy person has the ability to hold a job, support their family and be an upstanding member of the community. Anyone who does those things will be respected even if they’re working a menial job. It may not be prestigious but it’s honorable. People respect integrity and humility a lot more than arrogance and a poor attitude.”
That’s true for people with good values, usually people who don’t judge others on their class status because they themselves have experienced being poor. But I and anyone else who has worked menial jobs can tell you that there are plenty of people who take the opportunity of having you in a vulnerable position to humiliate and abuse you. There are plenty of people in this world who only treat people with respect if they can be of use to them/have something they want.
LikeLike
@Abagond
“Exactly! White racists will always find the worst Blacks – welfare cheats, drug dealers, psychopathic killers, ignorant dumbasses – and base their stereotypes on them”.
I would reverse it. I would say the stereotypes began developing when Africans were first brought to America and that stories, reports and experiences with Black ‘welfare cheats, drug dealers, psychopathic killers,[and] ignorant dumbasses’ serve as a sort of confirmation bias to whites (not only racist whites) that the stereotypes are based at least on some truth.
LikeLike
@Kiwi,
I know, right?
LikeLike
Looking at how Asian Americans are treated is further proof respectability politics don’t work. The model minority myth paints a picture of a Asian Americans being the poster children of respectability politics in being more educated, law abiding and docile than even whites, themselves.
But that’s the problem. Asian Americans, just like blacks and Latinos, are not perceived as fully human by whites because of stereotypes. Asians are perceived as robotic and lacking the capacity to have certain basic human feelings. As being human calculators. Asian males are perceived as not being real men and not being manly, physically large, confident or assertive enough to even be perceived as sexual beings. Which is why nearly half of Asian women marry out mostly to white men. Many non-Asian men shrug this off and try to reason that the stereotypes of Asian men being small and weak are true when I see large and muscular Asian men well over 6′ all the time. Asian men frequently rank as the most undesirable undateable men of all races despite myths of higher earning capacities, higher intelligence and being the most educated and well put together. Asian men are also some of the least respected men in America where we worship black and white male celebrities who are athletes and sex symbol celebrity actors and musicians. Asian Americans are conspiciously absent from American pop culture despite being praised as being subscribers to respectability politics. To put it short, Asians do not gain white privilege from subscribing to respectability politics.
The sad part about it is that it’s not even true. There is a bamboo ceiling for Asian Americans, Asians make less than whites doing the same jobs in the same cities and Asians only have a seemingly higher income because the lived in high priced areas like the Bay Area, California and New York. Asian Americans have ranked as the poorest group in New York City in recent years. Many California cities like Oakland and Long Beach have nearly all Asian inner city areas which have the same social ills as any ghetto in America. Asian gangs are a big problem all over California and they victimize their own communities, so it doesn’t register to white people how bad it is.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ MayonaisseMaliaise
“Asian gangs are a big problem all over California and they victimize their own communities, so it doesn’t register to white people how bad it is.”
Gangs of young males victimizing “their own communities” is true of all ethnic groups. There are criminal gangs in every ethnic group, White people included.
The White Power Structure is aware of the problems Asian gang violence causes for Asian communities. They just don’t care. Sweeping Asian gang violence under the rug is another facet of the Model Minority Myth.
I live in Seattle, with a large Asian American population. The local (English language) Asian press refuse to talk about Asian gang violence, too. They don’t want the negative attention such activity brings to the various API communities. This is one way, Asian Americans use their ‘Model Minority’ status to their advantage.
Conversely, media highlighing of Black gang violence is another way Black people and Black communities are portrayed as pathological and criminal.
P.S. “large and muscular…well over 6′” does not make an adult male a man. How a grown man carries himself and shoulders his adult responsibilites (to his partner, family, community and nation) are more accurate definitions of manliness. In those departments, Asian American men perform as well as or better than other men.
LikeLiked by 4 people
The Jews too: a hundred years ago, when they were filling the slums of New York, they were a threat to the nation. Now that they have risen to high positions in banking, business, government, and media, they are a threat to the nation.
Heads I win, tails you lose.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Looking at how Asian Americans are treated is further proof respectability politics don’t work. The model minority myth paints a picture of a Asian Americans being the poster children of respectability politics in being more educated, law abiding and docile than even whites, themselves.”
Holly victim olympics batman! We as black people should stop everything we’re doing, ( including trying to evade bullets from racist white police officers and the average white person that has a gun, that’s itching to use it on black people.) Just so we can make Asian Americans feel better about their place in American society. And on the double!
Yeah, even though their stereotype doesn’t get them killed on site, unlike black people. We can’t even go about out daily lives without random white people calling the cops on us for doing seemly ordinary things, that white people and Asian people take for granted.
So excuse me for blinking, when i compare your complaints, then look at our complaints as black people.
Excuse me while i play the world’s tiniest violin….
It’s not enough that Asian Americans, like every other “minority” group ( uses term loosely in a world where white women are classified as “minorities”) rode on our coat tales, reaping the benefits of the civil right movement, yet doing nothing then or now, for the betterment of other oppressed communities.
Asian americans are nowhere to be found, when there’s civil unrest within oppressed communities, except when something bad happens to someone of their own race.
Anyone remember Peter Liang? The Asian community came out in droves to support his release for killing an unarmed black man.
Asian Americans should not be trying to garner sympathy from black people, being they treat black people the same way, white people do.
Asian Americans keep their heads down as a race and they have done pretty well with this tactic.
when you adopt white supremacy ideology, exchange your culture for white culture, never question white supremacy, It’s obvious your complicit.
P.S.
I would never go to a Hospital’s burn department, surrounded by people that have 30-40% burns all over their body.
Then look in the disfigured face of one of them and complain that i have a small blister on my finger from accidently touching the tip on my hot stove.
LikeLiked by 1 person