The diseased host model of American society

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The diseased host model of American society

Thu Aug 1st 2013 by abagond

The diseased host or pathogenic model of American society is my name for that thing where America is seen as a white country but suffers from the presence of people of colour. Blacks are blamed for crime, Mexicans for unemployment, Muslims for terrorism, etc. Whites are right, normal, successful, Basically Good. People of colour are seen through a deficiency model where different means screwed up. That allows them to be scapegoated.

The multiracial model is its opposite: America does not belong to any one race but to everyone who lives there. Everyone should have equal rights and equal opportunity. Inequality, caused by racist policies, past and present, is what screws up American society, not the pathologies of people of colour.

The two models are the devil and angel sitting on the shoulders of American history.

The Reform/Nadir cycle: In its finer moments, America goes through a period of multiracial reform:

1860s and 1870s: Civil War and Reconstruction: black slaves freed and given equal rights in the constitution.
1950s and 1960s: Civil rights movement, Jim Crow laws overturned.

But it is two steps forward, one step back: both periods were followed by a nadir of racial relations where American society moves back towards the pathogenic model: Jim Crow, lynching, “Stop and frisk”, Islamophobia, weakening of voting rights, mass incarceration and internment, deportation, racist immigration policies, resegregation of schools, etc.

The pathogenic model informs not just government policy and Fox News talking points but daily life too: from the shooting of Trayvon Martin to white flight to the One Drop Rule to microaggressive racist contempt and condescension.

The vampiric model: Lost on most whites is the profound irony that they could easily be viewed through a vampiric model of American society: their wealth is built on half of Mexico, Dead Indian Land, African slave labour, Latin American sweat shops, Asian brain drain, etc.

Brought to you by the pathogenic model:

Republican positions on immigration, crime, drugs, welfare, voting rights, etc
genocide – the logical conclusion of pathogenic thinking
racist immigration laws
- Chinese Exclusion Act
- The Immigration Act of 1924
mass relocation of people of colour:
- 1800s: Native Americans (Trail of Tears, the Cheyenne, etc)
- 1930s: Mexican Americans
- 1940s: Japanese Americans
mass incarceration of blacks and Latinos (1990s to present).
racial profiling
racial segregation:
- white suburbia: Nearly 90% of suburban whites live in a place that is less than 1% black
- black ghettos: most blacks live in mostly black neighbourhoods
- Indian reservations
- sundown towns
- white flight, restrictive covenants, blockbusting, redlining, racial steering
white mob violence against Chinese and blacks (Idaho, Tulsa, Rosewood, Duluth, etc)
The White Default
- High school history and English as White American Studies
- White Entertainment Television
- perpetual foreigner stereotype
white paternalism

Abstract liberalism: Whites talk like they believe in a multiracial society but walk like they believe in a pathogenic one. You know, it is “all men are created equal” and “I don’t see colour” – until too many blacks or even Asians move into “their” neighbourhood.

See also:

“white is right”
The Nadir of American race relations – the one of the late 1800s and early 1900s
the pathogenic model articulated:
- 1787: Thomas Jefferson
- 1858: Lincoln
- 1916: Madison Grant – the brains behind the Immigration Act of 1924 and much else. He applied the pathogenic model not just to blacks but to Italians and Jews too.
- 1994: The Bell Curve
- 2010: “Too Asian” – Canadian, but the same kind of thinking.
Back to Africa
The Southern strategy
What they do not teach you about anti-racism at American high school – how the multiracial model is played down
Voting Rights Act of 1965 – recently gutted, like it’s 1899
colour-blind racism: the four frames – the main form of racist thinking among White Americans since the 1970s: abstract liberalism, black pathologies, etc.
Native Americans in Western thought – for more on the deficiency model

Posted in stuff | 123 Comments

123 Responses

on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 13:31:18 Leo

“The diseased host or pathogenic model of American society is my name for that thing where America is seen as a white country but suffers from the presence of people of colour. Blacks are blamed for crime, Mexicans for unemployment, Muslims for terrorism, etc. Whites are right, normal, successful, Basically Good. People of colour are seen through a deficiency model where different means screwed up. That allows them to be scapegoated.”

And this is the absolute truth as we know it, but the sad reality is that many of us have allowed racist whites to cloud our judgment by not trusting and working with other people of color.

Together, we can change our position in America, but we’re alienated because of our differences and the white man knows this since he perfected the art of ‘divide and conquer’ that greatly benefits him.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 13:39:29 Da Jokah

Abagond’s “pathogenic model” of society is to blame whites for others’ problems i.e. crime, gangs, drugs, illegitimacy, unemployment, poor academics, etc.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 15:22:35 Average Bee

@ Da Jokah

Well, if you whites weren’t evil (with the added tendency to lie about it), then Black People wouldn’t have to put such harsh truths in your face. This ain’t stormfront. Go over there and waste those cunts’ time.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 15:22:40 The diseased host model of American society | A...

[…] The diseased host or pathogenic model of American society is my name for that thing where America is seen as a white country but suffers from the presence of people of colour. Blacks are blamed for… […]

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 15:24:53 Lwanda Magere

To properly understand why White society has this view of racial interaction, I suggest you look into “the mantra” and “anti-racist is code word for anti-white.” I submitted an e-mail to you recommended that you pursue writing an article on the matter and it now seems more pertinent given this current blog post.

White society is in fear of erasure either through retribution, being overrun by immigrants or by being mated out of existence (interracial relationships). There is a very pointed conversation occuring within White discourse and it is one of apathy toward non-Whites. White society believes itself to be at war with non-Whites.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 15:53:23 abagond

A breathtaking example of pathogenic thinking in Canada:

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/too-asian/

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 16:10:53 Linda

On another post, Deb, wrote words that I found to be profound…

Words that hit the Truth so well, it’s worth Repeating:

Deb @

While we are, in fact, Americans, we, like all the other ethnicities that make up this “tossed salad” we call America, come from a “culture,” with the knowledge to have built this country — brick/stone masons, blacksmiths, carpenters, builders of roads to include Benjamin Banneker, to whom the nation’s capital should forever be indebted
(http://www.biography.com/people/benjamin-banneker-9198038) and etc., etc., etc.
One of the most famous blacksmiths in this country was born and raised in my hometown (http://www.thehistorymakers.com/biography/philip-simmons-41 — as you can see from the link, he had no lack of “guidance”).

We come from a “culture” with the gendered knowledge of choosing seeds, planting, harvesting and processing rice, by hand which made the white planter class in the South rich beyond measure (during the slave trade, they sought out female, West African slaves in particular, because of that knowledge)!

THIS in a nutshell describes both America and Europe’s “success” because if it was not for the NATIVE Africans, Amer-Indians, or Asians — they would Never have their science, medicines, or had their Industrial Revolution.

because Native peoples had to Introduce and Teach them about the biological, medicinal & agricultural wonders of Africa, Asia and N. and South America or they would have Never survived or been able to use that knowledge to form an industry between each other in order to give “life” to their “Free Markets” and financial paradigms….

They Used the knowledge they were Taught by Africans and other Native peoples around the world … ungrateful Bastards!

Between each other, these “white Students” actually Acknowledged from “Who” they got the information from, but when it came time to write history, it was the “white Student” whose Name got mentioned and these names are taught in the History books of America and Europe… unrepentant Thieves!

and now, modern day white people walk around acting like their ancestors “found” something new; and black people walk around “clueless” about the strength and contributions of their African ancestors.

This Ignorance is what is also Affecting the psyche of America — everyone has “amnesia” and are trapped in the Cycle of ignorance — with white people walking around thinking only “their” Opinions matter and are valid.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 16:17:10 abagond

@ Linda

Excellent comment!

@ Laila Rasheed

Your comment was deleted for plagiarism.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 16:22:03 Da Jokah

A breathtaking example of pathogenic thinking in America:

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE8V_gTH5QU)

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 17:01:14 Lwanda Magere

@Abagond

My initial post was meant for you.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 17:03:51 Linda

Thanks Abagond

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 17:22:41 Adeen

This is a good post. I agree.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 18:00:10 SugarKiss

@ Linda

Excellent reminder of the buried truths in American History. I also want to point out that even after whites learned this things, they, lacking a serious moral compass, spiritual connection to Earth or other ppl, have taken the reigns and done what?

Caused the further destruction of mankind and Mother Earth–their reckless behavior and lack of insight has become a catalyst–ppl are taking notice and the unexplained infertility among them PROVES this very fact…

“unrepentant Thieves!” says Linda.

Indeed. They way that working class whites have embraced their own sllloooww destruction through these ridiculous capitalistic “values” and imperialistic endeavors…they blindly and actively support this white supremacist construct and it will be the poetic death of them all. Each and every time they are given an opportunity self correct the destructive path (the multi-billion dollar military and industrial complex GOVT sanctioned budget to develop different ways to KILL ppl world wide)…

They screw it up. I think the scales are completely tipped over. There is no coming back from this. They are on the path on self destruction, holding a handfuls of meaningless dollar bills in their hands. The energy and deadly force they put in to upholding the “strength” of the petro-dollar proves this as well.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 18:24:02 Moe

I hate white people now.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 19:32:32 munu aka Bantu

As I young man I had the opportunity to read (in a German translation) James Baldwin’s essay “A Stranger in the Village” where he states that America is a creation of Europe and therefore it’s soul has it’s European mark. I suspect that the way White America sees the “foreigners” has its origins somewhere…
Read https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/gjay/www/Whiteness/stranger.htm

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 19:45:44 The diseased host model of American society | C...

[…] The diseased host or pathogenic model of American society is my name for that thing where America is seen as a white country but suffers from the presence of people of colour. Blacks are blamed for… […]

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 19:45:58 The diseased host model of American society | Mixed American Life

[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 19:52:21 B. R.

I love America, I love coming back on business trips , and seeing if I can catch some of the top players doing a style I like…you have to dig for buried treasure , but , if you know who to look for, you can see some incredible players…all over…even better, to play on the bandstand with some great players in America, passing through …in lots of cities…I recorded with some fantastic Cuban American musicians, at Lennie Kravitz studio in South Beach…played on the bandstand with a great Philipine American in New York…I wish I could have caught some break dancing…

And, I mean this in no way to sound , to anyone concerned, like “you should be happy with blah blah…”, but just as a personal observation coming from living in Brazil, of how many black Americans were represented in middle class positions and up, in traveling and staying at top class hotels, and who owned businesses, at the hightened debate of racial issues….of course, compared to Brazil where Im living…which isnt negating any of the reality of the racism on desplay in white Americans, on the media, Fox news (especialy recent events), etc

but, I have to admit to myself, I love America, as probably, a lot of people on here do , too….I just hate a lot of Americans

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 20:01:44 With Love Glenn

Abagond, you really laid out the psychosis of the oppressors beautifully, and the images you find are always spot on to emphasize your point.
Thank you for your time, energy and passion that go into shining the spotlights on injustice. Keep doin’ whatcha doin’ sir.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 20:40:14 Riverside_Rob

Sugarkiss- wow, that was a great post, and I can’t argue against your points, especially the slow death of the white middle class, which I think means the death of the American political experiment. What do you envision will arise from the ashes of the country formerly known as white america?

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 20:49:03 King of Trouble

Usurped, the US was not originally named America. It was actually South America that was originally given that title. I have always wondered if the attitudes of Land Owners and Surfs was a strong backing of the treatment of immigrants. Much is toted about how we are built on the Roman and Greek platform of government and society. Yet the ideas of land seem to stem straight from England. Which even though it was moving into the industrial age the attitudes of most of the upper class was more akin to land owners or titled people. I feel like most of the racist comments you get today can be clearly seen in land owners and titled people own personal accounts. The low IQ of surfs, the dimwits of peasants, and the underclass gross and violent attitude have all been written down. The Romans did see everyone else as barbarians but they used them for their own armies and such. The Greeks saw themselves also above everyone else. The Romans could claim they had a multicultural society not so much the Greeks. They were fractured islands trying to be united under one name.
America as we know it is fractured under the ideal that we are the best because we are on top. What happens when we aren’t on top?

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 21:27:43 King

Good post Abagond.

What you cll the Vampire Model has been a long-held observation of my own.

Blacks: Brought to the U.S. to do the hard work on cotton and sugar cane plantations.

Chinese Brought here to do the hard work of building the railroads

Anerican Indians Enslaved in order to build the Spanish Missions

Mexicans Blind eye and policy incentives used to bring immigrants to the U.S. illegally in order to pay them less money while they are doing the hard work of agriculture and etc.

That’s a lot of “other people” made to do all the hard work isn’t it? So who exactly are the “lazy parasites?”

You know, the older folk used to say to be careful when you talk someone else because you often just tell on yourself.

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 22:40:59 Asplund

There are a lot of whites like me who feel forced into being racists, as “anti-racism” can seem equal to self-immolation.

Take white flight. If I continue to live where I live, then it’s gentrification. If I move, it’s white flight. I have no control over anyone else’s behavior, so what am I supposed to do? I’m a professor who does his utmost to teach truly global courses, but what can I do ehen the majority black student body in general doesn’t value education enough to scrape by? If I dumb down my courses I’m a condescending liberal. If I don’t, I’m imposing a Eurocentric model.

What can we really do in the end?

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on Fri Aug 2nd 2013 at 23:16:24 Asplund

Kiwi,

No offense intended, but is the existence of increased self-identification as native really that offensive? You didn’t mention many acts of violence or punitive laws disenfranchising people economically.

I agree those whites shouldn’t be resentful. At the same time they also shouldn’t be thankful. Getting to live in the wealthiest society in history is a just reward.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 00:11:07 Origin

The vampiric model is the accurate model. The pathogenic model is the usual white flipping of the script. White supremacy is also a flipping of the script. This is so that black people will hate themselves. White people are NOT at all superior. Their lack of color is due to ABSENCE of melanin in parts of the organism where black people naturally possess it. This is not racism it’s just fact.

They tell you melanin is just a pigment but so is the green plant pigment chlorophyll. But we know that life on earth would not be possible without that pigment and the process of photosynthesis that it sustains. Chlorophyll appears green because it primarily absorbs EM radiation in the part of the spectrum complementary to green. Melanin is black because it aborbs ALL wavelengths. The Wikipedia article on chlorophyll wonders why chlorophyll isn’t black as well since that would be more efficient from an energy-capture perspective. In fact, there are radiotrophic fungi that use melanin to extract energy from ionizing GAMMA radation in order to grow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus

Black people do not realize why we are fought with at every level: economic, psychological, physiological but are still around. Do you know that there is medical research on how various drugs bind to and interact with melanin?
For example see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9359620

“The affinity of drugs and other xenobiotic agents for melanin is a WELL-KNOWN PHENOMENON, often occurring with SERIOUS PHYSIOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES. For example, the interaction of anti-psychotic drugs with neuromelanin may play a pivotal role in the induction of extrapyramidal movement disorders associated with the chronic administration of phenothiazine and other neuroleptic agents. Little, however, is known about the complete nature of melanin-drug binding and the impact of these interactions on the physico-chemical properties of melanin.”

This is straight from the horse’s mouth. Do you still think it’s an accident that black communities are drugged up? If you still think it’s an accident check the long list of related medical research on melanin/melatonin/serotonin: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?linkname=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=9359620 Read about the CIA, Contras and cocaine trafficking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemic#CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking Ever wonder why lab rats for medical drug testing are almost always white? Given the knowledge that they study drug-melanin interaction, whose safety are they trying to ensure by testing on albinistic rats? Do you still think that Africa’s AIDS epidemic was just bad luck? Sounds like a conspiracy? What else could ensure multi-generational oppression of a race?

Their time is up. Only the cup of wrath awaits them. The people who’re to escape will have to swallow their pride and come to our black selves! At this time it’s important to know who your enemy is and stop trying to be up in their shit. It’s about to be flushed.

Just a word to the wise.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 00:17:57 Riverside_Rob

Kiwi -what flag flys over your house?
It’s clear you miss the boat on the flag waving after 9/11, it wasn’t about invasion – it was about sticking together, helping out, then fighting back. Sorry you’re so attuned to your own grievances that you missed the opportunity for unity.

As I recall after reading your biography somewhere here – you cast aside you asian culture at a young age and went full tilt ‘merican. Those asian immigrants you’re so proud of aren’t your peers, you’re as much a knuckle dragger to them as I am. You don’t speak their language anymore (for which you blame yt – that’s hutzpah) and you likely don’t have their asian discipline to succeed.

I do appreciate asians in my neighborhood – they’re quiet, respectful, take care of their property and they wave back when I say hello. I can’t say the same for black folks on my street though.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 00:22:24 Riverside_Rob

Hello Asplund, I appreciate your writing / speaking style, very civil. What subjects to you teach and at what level – if you don’t me asking?

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 00:50:54 King of Trouble

Asplund, doesn’t it really depend on why you left your place?

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 01:33:17 Riverside_Rob

Kiwi – it’s called pride, you should earn some. We were all Americans that day, you saw the faces of those killed, and those that gave their all to rescue whomever they could. You had the chance that day, to decide to be a part of the larger whole, to contribute, but you remain apart and bitter. That’s your choice. You found solace here, good for you.

What you call my “thoughtless stereotyping of Asians as a model minority” is actually me saying they’re good neighbors. Just how hypersensitive are you?

I like the Mexicans that live next door too – they always return my kid’s ball when it goes over the fence – you don’t suppose I’m secretly coveting the parking strip between our two drive ways do you?

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 01:53:22 AverageBee

@ King, Linda, SugarKiss and those who mentioned it

I have thought about the ramifications of whites taking credit for that which they didn’t create/postulate/ invent for some time. The lack of public acknowledgement of Brown ( to include “Black” and ” yellow”) peoples on this planet has had quite serious effects. Not only is history wrong, but so much scsince has been lost in the scourge of white supremacy.

I’ve been listening to Ivan the Great (Van Sertima) and he pointed out that Cardinal Yiminez (probably spelled wrong) had 3800 books burned in the Americas by the conquistadors alone. Throw in the Library of Alexandria and the destructuion of Africa en masse and one realizes that such a great amount of science has been lost.

Technologically speakiby, we are at least 500 years behind where we should be. Exploitation of us Brown people is the cause. And of course they know it. They want be understanding “dark matter” until those with Meaning are really,, genuinely included in society..te capitalists aren’t spiritual enough to develop anything extraordinary. When their Mr. Rushmores and and shot last as long as pyramids I will be impressed.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 01:56:57 AverageBee

Typo. Meaning = melanin

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 01:58:26 joshua

It’s one thing to want others to acknowledge contributions, it’s quite another to leap off the deep end into complete silliness like Linda:

“THIS in a nutshell describes both America and Europe’s “success” because if it was not for the NATIVE Africans, Amer-Indians, or Asians — they would Never have their science, medicines, or had their Industrial Revolution.”

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 02:00:55 joshua

@Origin

What was your point? Bring on the race war?

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 02:12:29 Anne

Do people come on this blog thinking that they can start comment “battles” with other posters and somehow “win the Internet”? Or are they just lonely people looking for a response from anyone who will give them one?

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 02:12:42 Linda

“joshua,
It’s one thing to want others to acknowledge contributions, it’s quite another to leap off the deep end into complete silliness like Linda:

“THIS in a nutshell describes both America and Europe’s “success” because if it was not for the NATIVE Africans, Amer-Indians, or Asians — they would Never have their science, medicines, or had their Industrial Revolution.”

Linda says,

Joshua, please explain why you find that statement to be “silly” … please clarify where you believe the “untruths” lie.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 02:30:37 Matari

Origin,

Are you the same Origin that posted HERE a year or so ago?

I ask because your posts of late have a more definitive bite (for lack of a better term) plus a spiritual component that wasn’t seen in your earlier posts. Anyway, I’m really enjoying reading your input here.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 03:02:49 jefe

@ Riverside_Rob
I have not responded to you in the past, but you have to see the context of what you are doing.
When you replied to Kiwi,

What you call my “thoughtless stereotyping of Asians as a model minority” is actually me saying they’re good neighbors. Just how hypersensitive are you?

in the next sentence following your PRIOR comment you said

I can’t say the same for black folks on my street though.

That is the very thing that reflects the ugliness of the model minority stereotype. Although it found its origin in the late 60s, it was promoted by whites in the 1980s as an opposite counterpoint to the negative black stereotypes (eg, welfare queen, black brute). You used the stereotype exactly in the negative harmful way that was commonly used by the white media in the 1980s-90s. It comes across as being thoughtless. Instead of castigating people for their “mindless” calling out of racism, can you try to understand why, so very much, it appears that way? It is not a matter of being hypersensitive. It is a matter of your using the stereotype in exactly the way that it was used by white racists.

So, it is NOT just actually your saying that they are good neighbors. You are saying they are good neighbors as opposed to the blacks in the neighborhood. That is part of the evil that is perpetuated by the Model Minority stereotype.

Yet it does not seem like you particularly like either to be in your neighborhood.

How do you deal with this? The best way is to simply stop doing it.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 03:10:45 jefe

One of my very good friends was in the Windows of the World in the WTC on the morning of 9/11/2001, He was the childhood friend of my college roommate, and the best man at his wedding. We used to hang out regularly on weekends in NYC, and this guy in the WTC also introduced me for a job at his company.

I remember having a meeting with old friends in NYC after 2001 and we all missed him.

His name is inscribed at Ground Zero. I go visit when I am back in NY.

BUT,
having a close friend who left us on 9/11 does not in of itself, make me proud of the vampire that is America. I am always searching for something to make me feel proud about the USA. It is difficult.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 04:27:37 Drosera

Abagond, I know you are busy with things going on and I know you said you put topics up that you feel is right, but I was wondering if you could do an article on Misdiagnosing Disabilities and Special Education to minorities in America. I know you did one piece about it(Black Achievement Gap), but it didn’t really go into detail and I think this is EXTREMELY important when it comes to the education system for people of color.

This topic is RARELY talked about and is a epidemic to black students, especially black males at a alarming rate being misdiagnosed and put into Special Education schools for things such as “ADHD,ADD” and the most common “Behavioral Problems”. And the questions surrounding teachers that recommended these programs to the parents and how racism plays a role.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/04/03/for-black-parents-anger-at-an-adhd-diagnosis-can-lead-to-inaction/

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/10/12/are-americans-more-prone-to-adhd/racism-and-sexism-in-diagnosing-adhd

This last one is pretty long
http://jpepsy.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/4/339.full

Sorry, but I brought up this topic, because I remember a user a long time ago mentioning something like this in his childhood(AvenueRants) And a couple of users that also talked about their experience with their education, as well as mine. Just thought this would be a interesting topic.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 04:27:43 jefe

The benign tumour / malignant tumour is a good metaphor to illustrate the diseased host model.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 04:40:13 Fiamma

“One of my very good friends was in the Windows of the World in the WTC on the morning of 9/11/2001….His name is inscribed at Ground Zero. I go visit when I am back in NY.”

—

Oh my, that is very sad to read. You have my condolences, jefe.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:08:55 Riverside_Rob

Jefe, I appreciate the tone with which your response to me was given, however to claim that my empirical data, my experience on my own street, is stereotypical is to categorically deny my observations simply because others may have made the same observations. I have Asian, Mexican and black neighbors. I harbor no ill feelings towards either, but I stand by my statements.

sorry to hear that you find it difficult to find things to have pride in with this country. Maybe you’re expecting too much – the actions to be proud of aren’t supposed to be given to you by others, but by yourself – I know I sound condescending and I don’t mean to – I just don’t have your facility with the language. So the point I’m trying to make is If there really isn’t much for you here, so be it – but the conversation started with Kiwi’s objection to outward displays of pride in the nation – so if you don’t have it, you don’t, but you shouldn’t disparage someone else’s.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:09:55 Riverside_Rob

Kiwi you toss in Muslims during your posts on race – you know that muslims are of all races right? do you mean Arabs when you post that?

I feel sorry for you Kiwi – I do. You seem to be forever on the lookout for slights and opportunities to cry out RACIST. I’ve read your autobiography, you thought you were an honorary white, didn’t you. Your own neurosis has now caused you to make a polar shift, now your an honorary victim, that’s sad. My advice to you is find somebody to love and be happy in your own skin.

I don’t think you’ll ever understand that your stand against whites is meaningless to whites – we don’t see ourselves as a monolith as you do. You know a little history don’t you – Germanic tribes clash with Romans, Romans with Greek, British and French, Spanish and Belgium, Britain and her colonies – getting the picture, white fights white throughout the ages. Often, the losers were slaves to the victors. So keep shaking your first at the great white monster – he’s not listening because he’s not there.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:14:56 sondis

Drosera:

“I was wondering if you could do an article on Misdiagnosing Disabilities and Special Education to minorities in America. I know you did one piece about it(Black Achievement Gap), but it didn’t really go into detail and I think this is EXTREMELY important when it comes to the education system for people of color.

This topic is RARELY talked about and is a epidemic to black students, especially black males at a alarming rate being misdiagnosed and put into Special Education schools for things such as “ADHD,ADD” and the most common “Behavioral Problems”. And the questions surrounding teachers that recommended these programs to the parents and how racism plays a role.”

This jumped out at me, immediately.

I’ve watched several of Dr. Umar Johnson’s seminars on YouTube and he is the perfect person to study and listen too, regarding this very topic you are interested in researching.

I’ve seen this video, i recomment you watch it, its just what you were looking for. I hope you enjoy the video, Drosera. ^_^

(http://youtu.be/GrkTOEK5Pps)

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:17:54 joshua

@Linda

1. You can’t possibly know whether your statement could be true or not. Odds are that it isn’t.

2. The scientific advancement of Europe preceded their conquest of the rest of the world, and there is no reason to suppose it would have ended because you say so.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:43:45 jefe

@Riverside_Rob

I trust that you have indeed made empirical observations – no denial of that. I never denied your selected observations. But they alone cannot prove that a stereotype is true. A stereotype anyhow, is a belief, not a fact. It is like believing in God or that he will forgive you if you sin. Or like believing the next person who looks Muslim is harbouring a bomb. It cannot be anything more than a belief.

Making empirical observations that seem to validate a stereotype is called confirmation bias. They do not prove the “truth” of a stereotype, only that examples could be found that are consistent with it.

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/08/03/confirmation-bias/

The problem is that the stereotypes regarding Asians and blacks that you believe as fact are still simply that – stereotypes. And using the model minority stereotype as an opposite counterpoint to the negative 80s black stereotypes is doing exactly what those stereotypes were intended to do – pit different racial groups against each other whilst alienating Asians and vilifying blacks. It doesn’t help anyone except the persons who hold and promote such stereotypes. The sad thing is that even some Asians and blacks believe in those stereotypes (instead of simply recognizing them as stereotypes); it is a form of internalized racism.

Insisting that a racist stereotype is the truth, and not simply a stereotype, is a behavior that we need to call out here.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 05:59:21 mstoogood4yall

I agree with drosera and Sondis

It should be a post done about that, i have read stories of black kids being diagnosed as being add adhd retarded etc. but when they were tested they were very smart. I also think males learn differently from females and need to have gender separated classes. And also imo males have more energy and get bored easily, and may do better when they have burned off some of their energy, i think they have gotten rid of p.e and recess at a lot of schools so u have a lot of kids with alot of energy from all the sugary foods and then inactivity. They tried to say my brother was adhd and wanted to put him on meds but my parents weren’t having it and when my mom started to get more involved and volunteered he was doing better, so sometimes the child needs more attention and more encouragement and structure to get things done. Dr umar Johnson talked about the side affects to those meds of how the child becomes zombie like and lowers sperm count. black eugenics again.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 06:37:18 Linda

Joshua,

I asked for you too specifically pinpoint where you saw the fallacy in my statement, and instead, you are giving me your opinion about the “legitimacy” of my statement without you bringing in any historical Anecdotes.

My statement is not about what I think, these are historical facts.

as for the “scientific advancement of Europe” that you are speaking about, it began in 1600’s — and Europe was late to the party.

Europe remained in a state of darkness .. up until the Renaissance that began in 1300’s – a period where the upper class elites “discovered” Greek and Roman philosophy and art (courtesy of the Italians, the Medici’s, who made their money trading with Africa, and they sponsored the origins of the Renaissance) but Europe, on the whole, still remained Ignorant due to the Church.

Western white Europeans “age of Science”, began with Galileo back in 1600’s, who studied the ancient philosophers, like the Greeks, philosophers who studied and trained in Africa:

“It’s well-documented that classical Greek thinkers traveled to what we now call Egypt to expand their knowledge. When the Greek scholars Thales, Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato and others traveled to Kemet, they studied at the temple-universities Waset and Ipet Isut.

In Kemet, Hippocrates, the “father of medicine,” learned of disease from the previous explorations of Imhotep, who established diagnostic medicine 2,500 years earlier.

In Kemet, Pythagoras, the “father of mathematics,” learned calculus and geometry from the Kemetic priests based on a millennia-old papyrus.”

http://history.howstuffworks.com/history-vs-myth/greek-philosophers-african-tribes1.htm

… these are historical facts, not me giving my opinion

(and please keep in mind, this was Prior to the Arab invasion, so the Eygptians then, did not look like the ones you see now– they were Not “white” … Waset (Luxor) was located in “upper Egypt” which means it was in southern Egypt, where the black and brown people lived)

So, modern day white “society” can thank the Africans for giving their ancestors the “framework” in which to build on…. and white American can thank the Native American Indians for their Constitution, which they cherish so much.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 06:54:14 joshua

Anyone who says Pythagoras learned Calculus in “Kemet” has instantly reduced credibility to zero. Europe may have been “late to the party” but that is also irrelevant to your claim of “Never”. Calculus wasn’t invented until much later. Period.

The constitution is primarily the result of the European Enlightenment and associated writings. There were similarities to the Mohawk Confederacy but that’s about it.

You made a claim, and anecdotes don’t support that claim. The fact is that all of these cultures exchanged information and built on each other, but it was the Europeans who actually made the scientific system work as more than a curiosity.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 07:45:09 Linda

and who “discovered” the America’s in 1492 and thought he landed in Asia (trying to be the next Marco Polo)

one and only, Christopher Columbus

He went to Africa first though and gained some knowledge:

“The first European nation to begin actively seeking a sea route to Asia was Portugal. The Portuguese had already begun exploring Africa in the early 1400s, and in 1415 they invaded northern Africa and conquered the Muslim commercial center of Ceuta on the Strait of Gibraltar. This gained the Portuguese access to the lucrative African trade, which, until that time, had been dominated by the Muslims

In late 1481 or early 1482 Columbus sailed to the Portuguese fortress of Elmina, in what is now Ghana, on the western coast of Africa. Columbus was impressed with the riches Africa offered, especially gold.

In addition, like all good navigators, he was eager to learn about winds and ocean currents from the local pilots and sailors . In the waters off the coast of Africa and the nearby Canary Islands Columbus first observed the ocean phenomenon known as the Canaries Current (see Atlantic Ocean: Currents). Knowledge of this fast-moving current running west of the Canary Islands could well have been the reason that Columbus later chose to start his crossing of the Atlantic in the latitude of the Canaries, far south of Spain or Portugal.”

http://columbus-day.123holiday.net/christopher_columbus.html

Thus begins the Symbiotic, which leads into Parasitic, relationship between Africa and Europe.

and speaking of how History never likes to include black people in major “white” historical events…, why is it that when the history books talked about Pedro Alonzo Niño, owner and captain of the “Santa Maria” and the other Nino brothers who sailed with Columbus — they somehow seem to forget to mention that Pedro and the Nino brothers were Spaniards of black African descent… after all, Pedro’s nickname was “El Negro”

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 07:55:05 Linda

“Joshua,
Anyone who says Pythagoras learned Calculus in “Kemet” has instantly reduced credibility to zero. Europe may have been “late to the party” but that is also irrelevant to your claim of “Never”. Calculus wasn’t invented until much later. Period.”

Linda says,

I know it hurts to acknowledge it, dear, but Pythagoras stated it himself that he learned these things in Africa ….. he didn’t invent “calculus” out of thin air.

“The Pythagorean theorem states that for any right triangle the sum of the squares of its two legs equals the square of its hypotenuse (a2 + b2 = c2). Or we could frame it as the sum of the square of the horizontal and the square of the perpendicular equals the square of the hypotenuse.

We know this formulation was known before Pythagoras – there is evidence in ancient Egyptian work, ancient China (the Chou Pei manuscript), and the megalith builders. Regardless, it is attributed to Pythagoras and two hundred years later Euclid compiled his “Elements of Mathematics” where this particular proposition is found in Book One.”

http://www.sricf-ca.org/paper1.htm

You need to prove that he didn’t study in Kemet and stop with your emotional denial and babble… your ranting about my credibility doesn’t change historical FACTS

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 08:05:21 Linda

“Joshua,
The constitution is primarily the result of the European Enlightenment and associated writings. There were similarities to the Mohawk Confederacy but that’s about it.”

Linda says,

and it seems, your American government has managed to do something that you cant’ bring your Unenlightened, totally in Denial self to do:

GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE

“Did you know that the foundation of the United States Constitution comes from the Haudenosaunee Confederacy?

H. Con. Res. 331 was passed in October 1988 to acknowledge the contribution of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations to the development of the United States Constitution, and to reaffirm the continuing government-to-government relationship between Indian tribes and the United States established in the Constitution.

Congress, on the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the signing of the United States Constitution, “acknowledged the historical debt which this Republic of the United States of America owes to the Iroquois Confederacy and other Indian Nations for their demonstration of enlightened, democratic principles of government and their example of a free association of independent Indian Nations.”

http://www.fnx.org/blog/iroquois-confederacy-foundation-united-states-constitution

and your European Enlightenment was bought and paid for from the Africans, by way of the Greeks… I know it hurts Joshua but you’ll survive this FACT of history.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 08:07:51 Linda

“Joshua,
You made a claim, and anecdotes don’t support that claim. The fact is that all of these cultures exchanged information and built on each other, but it was the Europeans who actually made the scientific system work as more than a curiosity”

Linda says,

I guess you don’t know how to click on links and read… you can google any of this information

it won’t change because you have a hard time Accepting historical Facts.

You can rant and rave all day long, but your emotional outbursts have yet to Disprove anything I’ve said.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 13:57:19 biff

Ah, writing about how white people think again. Of course I know white people’s actual opinions are not critical here, since you are essentially simply retelling the “narrative”, but I’ll offer one anyway.

Actually, I don’t think many thinking whites who aren’t part of the dregs of society would have major issues with race in the U.S. if whites were an 80+% majority in the U.S. as they were for most of the last century and if whites were at least holding steady as a percentage of the U.S. America has shown it can succeed in a situation like this. Clearly that scenario is not what the future holds, however.

Next, I’d like to ask you gracious readers to participate in a thought experiment with me. Honestly, would you rather live (and have your children live) in a U.S. that was 80% white or one that was 80% black? Please consider the possibility that life in this latter hypothetical country could be much like it is in parts of the world that are now similarly controlled by blacks, e.g., South Africa or Detroit. You will say even mentioning Detroit is racist, but please imagine whites are gone and we are relying on black igenuity to create jobs and sustain civilization. Where is the current example of this city or country that would be the favorable role model for this?

Second thought experiment. Would you rather live (and have your children live) in a U.S. that was 80% white or 80% hispanic? Please consider the possibility that life in this latter hypothetical country could be much like it is in parts of the world that now similarly controlled by hispanics, e.g., Mexico or East Los Angeles, (though, in the latter case, tax revenues from West LA would be unavailable to provide balance for our hypotehtical city/country).

The reality is that this second thought experiment is more likely to be closer to reality. If current demographic trends persist, whites become a minority in the U.S. around 2040, and by 2100, we may see a U.S. population that is around 15% white, 50% hispanic, 20% black and 15% asian.

Consider whether this 2100 U.S. is likely to be a better place for your grandchildren and their descendents to live in than the U.S. is now because of these demographic changes, or whether this will only add increased “diversity” and “vibrancy” as the narrative tells us.. In this 2100 scenario, whites and east asians will have fled further into various enclaves (some may try going back to Europe or Asia–which could make their numbers lower actually) and the major cities will be controlled by hispanics with sizable black and south east asian populations.

Please consider these questions honestly, because this is what a lot of whites are thinking about, and it is called “racist”. Demographics and numbers are racist, it is true, but sometimes they are actually correct in addition to being racist. I humbly suggest that current and projected future immigration as now conceived is unlikely to be a net plus for blacks in the U.S. However, blacks are powerless to go against the democratic party and oppose this immigration, because they won’t be able to fight the “narrative” until it’s too late. Please remember my words in 2040 (if we are fortunate enough to be around then together)… these changes will already very much be in evidence if we don’t have a general breakdown in society and/or another civil war, which is definitely a possibility.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:13:33 Riverside_Rob

Biff – that was artfully stated. The response from the usual crowd here is easily predicted, but you’re spot on with the thinking of many whites who are watching the dismantling of our republic by leftists, foreign and domestic.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:28:20 Riverside_Rob

Linda
I don’t want to start an argument, but one point of contention in your exchange with Joshua is Pythagoras inventing Calculus. He did not, you correctly state the Pythagorean theorem, but that is taught today within the context of algebra and geometry.

Calculus as we know it today was invented concurrently by 2 European guys, Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz.

Your statement is like stating George Washington Carver invented/discovered Penicillin. He didn’t – but he no less great because of it.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:29:08 Jess

Riverside_Rob said:

“I don’t think you’ll ever understand that your stand against whites is meaningless to whites – we don’t see ourselves as a monolith as you do. You know a little history don’t you – Germanic tribes clash with Romans, Romans with Greek, British and French, Spanish and Belgium, Britain and her colonies – getting the picture, white fights white throughout the ages. Often, the losers were slaves to the victors. So keep shaking your first at the great white monster – he’s not listening because he’s not there.”

Of course not, Rob. white people see each other as individuals with so much diversity and history. Blacks, Asians, and others are just groups of people that can be stereotyped.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:49:31 Riverside_Rob

Jefe – fair enough comment and after reading your link to Abagond’s post on the subject I have to admit that, if I were using those stereotypes, I wouldn’t know it or believe it – because they come from the emotional parts of the brain, not logical. You are right.

What I need to get over is, if I do hold these stereotypes, I’m not a bad person, just have a bad (what – habit?). Kicking habits is tough enough, how do you beat a stereotype?

You said “Insisting that a racist stereotype is the truth, and not simply a stereotype, is a behavior that we need to call out here.”

I had to read that twice, I heard you say “you’re a bad person” but that is not what you said – so I’m thinking that responses to questions about stereotypes and racism are also formulated in those emotional parts of the brain. That’s why you have two otherwise intelligent guys (me and Kiwi) foaming at the mouth from different sides of this argument.

That’s at least twice that you’ve got me re-evaluating my position – thanks for your patience.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:56:53 Riverside_Rob

Jess, I think you’re exactly correct when you said:
“…Of course not, Rob. white people see each other as individuals with so much diversity and history. Blacks, Asians, and others are just groups of people that can be stereotyped.”

Of course that doesn’t absolve you from the same crime -whatever racial phenotype you belong too. It’s a people thing, not a white thing, do you disagree? Did you miss my point that white tribes have subjugated other white tribes? That groups within the same racial phenotype have cruelly dominated one another throughout all races in history? I think you did, in order to take a swipe at the stereotypical white oppressor. We’re not so different you and I.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 16:58:21 King of Trouble

Biff there are plenty of African countries experiencing an economic boom. That aren’t in control of by whites. Please read up before making up hypotheticals without real depth. If you look back to the founding of this countries there were plenty of enough things that many minorities would have rather not have gone through. Even South Africa is not a money trap people are making money there also. Having both White and Black South African friends they quote while we are always saying look at South Africa for this poor, they would say you imprison everyone, sue everyone, and don’t even really help your that well.

The only reason that America did so well after the its revolution was that England still financed you. They bought Cotton, and Grains and other things from the States. American exceptionalism is was based of getting money from already rich countries and the contacts that were already from a rich country. Please, Please, Please follow the money if you are really going to make comparisons. However Biff if you believe that any country can just build itself up when the financiers run away… Not even Japan, which highly benefited from the money the States gave her and the sweetheart business deals in which the States also gave.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 17:43:15 Linda

“Riverside_Rob @ Linda
I don’t want to start an argument, but one point of contention in your exchange with Joshua is Pythagoras inventing Calculus. He did not, you correctly state the Pythagorean theorem, but that is taught today within the context of algebra and geometry.

Calculus as we know it today was invented concurrently by 2 European guys, Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz.”

Linda says,

Rob, you are not saying anything wrong…you are stating what you have learned from your American school system, which is why I say, “omission” of information is what is hurting American society.

The term “Calculus” was coined by Newton and Leibniz but they did not invent it

If you understand Calculus or Mathematics, then you also realize that it is a LARGE body of knowledge– the people who are credited as making “discoveries” are people who have worked and solved “a set of problems” from Theorems that already existed…

Newton/Leibniz each independently (and that’s in dispute) figured out the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus, “a theorem that links the concept of the derivative of a function with the concept of the integral”

“The fundamental theorem of calculus relates differentiation and integration, showing that these two operations are essentially inverses of one another. Before the discovery of this theorem, it was not recognized that these two operations are related.

Ancient Greek mathematicians knew how to compute area via infinitesimals, an operation that we would now call integration. The origins of differentiation likewise predate the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus by hundreds of years”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_calculus

It was the Greeks who developed the “method of exhaustion”, a precursor to the integral calculus from the mathematics they learned in Africa; and these methods were studied and used to by Newton to form his theory about the concept of the integral.

Newton and Leibniz did not Create the framework or backbone of Calculus, they developed an “important step” in Calculus that had advanced the theories into a new direction

as students of Mathematical knowledge, they added on to an already Existing body of work… something Mathematicians are doing even today,
but to claim they invented Calculus, is false. (your modern day history book likes to say this, but they also give credit to the Greeks, Africans, and Asians)

both you and Joshua, have succinctly highlighted my point that white Europeans historians gave credit the “white students” without crediting the non-white teachers /originators and this leads white America/ Europe to “downplay” the contributions of non-white cultures and civilizations to their own growth or success.

No one is disputing that white Europeans did not use their superior weapons to take control of non-white countries, which lead to them basically “ruling the world”

but Even “they” (white Europeans) admitted they Learned or rather “discovered” a significant amount of information from non-white cultures, which allowed them to formulate industries and improve their lives

so why is so hard for the average modern day white person to accept that Fact…when white western scholars are Acknowledging these Facts.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 18:10:21 Lwanda Magere

@Asplund

Your questions are all predicated on a number of false dichotomies, and are therefore erroneous in their logical position. If you are moving solely because your neighborhood is seeing an influx of non-Whites, then yes that is White flight. If you move into a traditionally non-White neighborhood and enact policies that will force out the current population rather than include them, then yes, that is gentrification. However, there is a middle ground. People move for a number of proximity related reasons including nearness to favored venues, relationships or places of employ. So why limit your reasons to race based reasons unless you are begging the question?

Your next claim/query is even more absurd because of its very racist supposition (“the majority black student body doesn’t value education enough to scrape by”). You are already condescending in your rhetoric, and it has little to do with refining your lesson plan to address the need for greater simplicity. At this point I already question your teaching abilities. What kind of educator would even profess such pedagogically weak commentary such as yours?

Surely you are familiar with Roland Barthes and his position on the use of semiotics to ascertain the underlying framework that informs the bias of the bourgeois in the enforcement of its own values? Have you ever considered that you are doing a poor job of convincing your students why they should adopt the values you are teaching? If you are going to serve the vaguard that passes down culture and knowledge, you should be prepared to explain or defend that action to your students. You’d be surprised how receptive students are to a foreign idea, even if they are disinclined to accept any truth value for such an idea, if you at least explain to them how that idea fits into a larger system.

And if you are not in the field of composition (I am in said field), you may still be familiar with David Bartholomae and his debate with Peter Elbow about the role of a student writer in the university setting. Bartholomae was of the mind that as educators, we can not approach student writing from the perspective of a deficiency model. Students are not acclimated to the discourse of the university and consequently “invent the university” in their writing. In other words, they do what they think they are supposed to do even before being properly exposed to the expectations of the institution. Before you question the investment of your students, question your efficacy in aiding your students in aclimating to the university. And by the by, I am Black, have a 3.89 GPA in my graduate program and am a member of the Golden Key International Honours Society. Far be it for me to suggest that anecdotal evidence is sufficient in a rebuttal, but I at least reference myself to suggest that your world view is disgustingly myopic, racist and foolish. You sir or madame, may take your saddidy self and have many seats.

@Biff

I can easily imagine living in a place where control is held by an 80% Black population. I believe they call it Baldwin Hills California. Atlanta Georgia is 51% Black and only 38% White. Atlanta has a Black mayor. Atlanta is a remarkably affluent city.

I find it interesting that you present a highly selective image of Black political leadership as problematic when the current global recession was primarily driven by poor leadership from George W. Bush and the White elite of corporate America (corporate bailouts aka corporate welfare). You point to Detroit as a model of failed Black leadership, but where is your criticism of Greece, which threw the entire European Union into economic instability that borders on complete collapse?

Greece was the recipient of two separate bailouts totaling somewhere in the neighborhood of 220 billion euros, which is roughly $300 billion. It is ironic in the least, because Eurocentrism hails Greece as the epitome of philosophy and government yet the small region that remains of this once formidable empire can’t even be sustained without being an economic drain on multiple economies. Yet Black leadership is what you worry over?

When you open yourself up to objectivity rather than your poorlly reasoned talking points, you’ll find that White leadership is as far more troubled than you let on in your racist banter. And yes, you are a racist. It does not matter how well you feign sincerity and eloquence. You are a disgusting bigot.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 19:12:00 Da Jokah

Lwanda

“Atlanta Georgia is 51% Black and only 38% White. Atlanta has a Black mayor. Atlanta is a remarkably affluent city. ”

Not exactly. Atlanta has a majority black population of 420,000 in a majority white metropolitan area of over 5 million. Over the last 10 years the city’s white population has grown by ~15% while the black population has shrunk by ~15%.

“Greece was the recipient of two separate bailouts totaling somewhere in the neighborhood of 220 billion euros… Yet Black leadership is what you worry over?”

In 10 years Greece will have recovered and Detroit will no longer exist.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 19:56:37 Anne

@biff,
Trinidad.
@lawanda,
That.
@riverside bob,
Tired.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 20:36:37 v8driver

i agree with your logic flow; this is interesting as i was just thinking today, that chickenfoot article had a little piece about displacing others in the ghetto, and that is really the only thread to pick at in that one that i can come up with now, but this i can’t say fallacy (deflection?) but lets say rhetorical device is not unique to white people, and right now all that comes to mind is don’t let your context overshadow your intentions (meaning)!

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 20:36:38 King

“In 10 years Greece will have recovered and Detroit will no longer exist.”

Crystal ball economics is convenient. If you don’t have facts then just pull predictions out of your rear.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 20:54:01 Da Jokah

Anne

“Trinidad”

Nope. Trinidad is only 1/3 black. The largest population group is actually from India.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 20:58:38 abagond

@ Da Jokah

If Atlanta is not black because its metropolitan area is mostly white, then Detroit is not “black” either:

Metropolitan Atlanta is 55% white
Metropolitan Detroit is 71% white

You cannot have it both ways.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:12:22 Fiamma

“So keep shaking your first at the great white monster – he’s not listening because he’s not there.”

– – –

He most certainly is “there”: he is the Euro-descended (AKA “white”) majority of the USA — a powerful group comprised of “individuals” who have a great tendency – whether in writing or in speaking – to quickly claim for themselves the label of “white” over and above their own actual and “individual” ethnic origins … ethnic origins which typically go unmentioned altogether.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:28:23 Sharina

@Asplund

I have found that some whites scare others into believing that. A fear that comes from the idea that anti-racism equals you are losing something. To some they are because it means not getting by on skin color alone.

As for your students….help them if you have the time. That interest can go a long way into motivating them to succeed.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:29:09 Anne

@Da Jokah and whoever actually cares about this stuff,

I guess the most recent Trinidad and Tobago census was wrong.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/Census__Mixed_population_on_the_rise-191944721.html?m=y&smobile=y

I understand that 35 percent is greater than 34 percent but it isn’t enough for people to spread the fallacy that the majority of the population is Indian. I also wonder why people ignore the fact that another 22 percent are of mixed race including a mix of African and Indian.

As an actual Trinidadian, I guess I don’t know what I am talking about.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:36:49 Da Jokah

Abagond

“If Atlanta is not black because its metropolitan area is mostly white, then Detroit is not “black” either:”

Atlanta and Detroit are both majority black. But the metropolitan areas are not. The people living in the city proper are struggling. While the people living in the suburbs are doing much better. Atlanta still has quite a bit of business. But it’s mostly owned and operated by people from outside the city.

“You cannot have it both ways.”

I’m not having it both ways. Atlanta is ascending and Detroit is collapsing. But, In both cases, the white areas are more successful than the black.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:39:27 sondis

Lwanda Magere:

You eloquently put Asplund in his place, a racist one. Very well said.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:40:15 Linda

and Anne, you forgot to mention that

the 35% Indian category in Trinidad, includes people who don’t count their African grandparent and just call themselves “Indian” — and visa versa — mixed-race people might just call themselves “black” or “Indian” based on how they feel or how they look

There is no hard and fast, fake white created “one-drop” rule for people in the Caribbean, like in the US

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 21:44:41 Anne

@Linda,
Exactly! But if someone has an agenda, they can always misquote the statistics to prove a false point. That is why I provided a link instead of just my opinion. 🙂

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 22:56:54 jefe

@ Da Jokah

If Atlanta is not black because its metropolitan area is mostly white, then Detroit is not “black” either:

Metropolitan Atlanta is 55% white
Metropolitan Detroit is 71% white

You cannot have it both ways.

That was an extraordinarily good catch.

Metropolitan Detroit is overwhelmingly white, much more white than Metropolitan Atlanta. Atlanta is the blacker metropolitan area.
The difference is that Atlanta has a much larger suburban black middle class.

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on Sat Aug 3rd 2013 at 23:03:50 Lisa

This post really does show the self-righteousness of American Whites as well as Christians.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 00:17:07 Da Jokah

@ Anne

“I understand that 35 percent is greater than 34 percent but it isn’t enough for people to spread the fallacy that the majority of the population is Indian.”

I didn’t say the majority of the population was Indian. I said it was the largest population on the island.

“I also wonder why people ignore the fact that another 22 percent are of mixed race including a mix of African and Indian.”

I always wonder why blacks are so desperate to claim mixed folks. Whites don’t even claim Dr. Charles Drew and he’s whiter than chalk.

(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1567669166/ref=dp_otherviews?ie=UTF8&color_name=x)

—-

@ jeffe

“That was an extraordinarily good catch.”

Only if you ignore my response.

“The difference is that Atlanta has a much larger suburban black middle class.”

Atlanta does have a much larger suburban black middle class than Detroit. That definitely helps the city. But don’t kid yourself. Whites are still doing most of the heavy lifting.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 00:26:40 Riverside_Rob

Linda, very well thought out response – .
“The fundamental theorem of calculus relates differentiation and integration, showing that these two operations are essentially inverses of one another. Before the discovery of this theorem, it was not recognized that these two operations are related.

this statement however; makes it sound like both the derivative and the integral already existed and were found to be inverses. I think that they were created to be that way. the Derivative was invented to determine the slope of a tangent line at any point on a curve and the integral was formulated to determine area beneath the curve of a function. These mathematical techniques were developed to answer two very old questions – geometry can come close, but without the concept of limits, the result is always an approximation. At least that is what I learned – as you’ve stated. I agree that all mathematicians stand on the shoulders of giants that have gone before, but you have to credit the people that extend the boundaries of knowledge.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 00:35:56 Riverside_Rob

Didn’t Atlanta have a grade inflating scandal recently, something where teachers and school administrators were correcting tests to elevate scores in predominantly black schools?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/justice/georgia-cheating-scandal

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 01:59:09 B. R.

Yeah, good catch about Detroit, Abagond, Jefe, these statistics are why Salvador is blacker than Detroit,Ive been to both cities, and I think Salvador is blacker…this is exactly why statistics can be mis leading…in lots of Brazilian cities, like Rio, the suburbs are where more black Brazilians are, in Sao Paulo, its called periferia , and if your statistics missed that for the black population, they missed a large black population count

I definitly think Salvador is blacker than Detroit

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 02:18:51 King of Trouble

Riverside_Rob, Can I ask you what does the Atlanta school scandal have to do with anything. School Scandals like that happen all over the US because we were tying pay to grades. Which is an incredibly stupid thing to do.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 02:21:03 biff

“Hey. Biff.

Mind explaining why Africa has the most economic growth of the (six inhabited) continents? Didn’t think so. Bet you didn’t even know that, bit you’re white so it isn’t surprising.”

Um, no you assume too much. Of course Africa has strong economic growth. Look at where they are starting from in terms of average GDP. When you are starting from a low place, it is easy to make great strides. The key will be whether Africa can remain stable and improve the quality of life for its inhabitants. Also, when there is a coup or civil war that wipes out huge economic value, it is probably not accurately recorded as huge negative GDP for the continent. Africa is blessed with many natural resources that the world needs, so many regions in Africa have a basis for prosperity if they could put graft, corruption and violence in check.

Trinidad is a reasonable response to my question, even though blacks may be a minority there and it also has incredible natural resources, including gas and oil accounting for something like 40% of GDP. It still seems to be doing well, though the article I read mentioned extensive emigration, especially to the U.S. as something keeping the population in check.

Anyway, my point is that I don’t think the “diseased host” model clearly articulates the demographic trends the U.S. is facing. The minority communities in the U.S., as they have traditionally existed are not viewed by most so called white racists as a disease in and of themselves.

Final response re: so called “native” americans, their brethren, the descendants of the Aztecs, may reclaim the country after all and have the last laugh…

Anyway, glad I am not alone in sharing alternative views here.. and thanks Abagond for tolerance of respectfully stated alternative views. Makes your blog different from most where the “narrative” is told.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 02:35:54 Lwanda Magere

@Da Jokah

You have already been served with several rebuttals as well as points of criticism about your hypocritical position. Rather than run your weak point into the ground with a feeble attempt to defend that which is indefensible, why not do yourself (and the rest of us) a favor and take the “L” and move on? Even without consideration for your hypocritical position, the point you raise is irrelevant. What correlation do you have between the demographic of the greater metropolitan area and any possible influence that such a demographic would have on a local population in a specific city? Unless you have an actual point, you are just contributing aimless rhetoric in an attempt to support a racist arguement. That makes you both stupid and a bigot (perhaps a redundant statement?).

@Sondis

Thank you. I lurk more than I post, but I have a low tolerance for unreasonable people making outlandish and racist claims. This is meant to be a safe space to discuss the issue of racism. I do not understand why racists see fit to come here and disrupt that conversation with their apologetics for racist behavior.

@Riverside_Rob

And how is that fact relevant when the discussion is about economic viability and leadership? Also, the super intendent charged in that case is a White woman, so any attempt to suggest that Atlanta is not a solid example of Black governmental leadership is already attenuated, as it was a White woman that was complicit and the head of the conspiracy to cheat.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 04:19:58 Da Jokah

Lwanda

Wow. That was harsh. It made me feel… nothing.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 04:25:24 Anne

Let’s see if I have this right. If a certain population has 35 percent of group A, 34 percent of group B, 22 percent of group C, and 9 percent of group D, then that makes group B a minority of the population? I suppose in order to promote some kind of agenda one could emphasize a one percent difference in population.

And while it is correct to say group A is the “largest population group”, the actual data shows that it is only slightly larger. But when taken into account with the fact that group C is a mix of groups A and B, this distinction seems less impressive.

However, I do understand why someone would make such an effort to force the point of a one percent difference if one needed to promote an idea that is not actually true. Because as we know “minorities” are never known to have an influence in the economic success of a country.

Do more Google searches about Trinidad. It makes you look smart when posting rebuttals instead of looking like someone who is trying to insult a group of people you don’t know anything about. Here is one to start the process.

http://www.socafreak.com/david-rudder-ganges-and-the-nile-lyrics.html

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 04:43:55 King

Da Jokah, I doubt if you even wish to understand reality. You make all the wrong assumptions and ask all the wrong questions.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 05:13:12 Lwanda Magere

@ Da Jokah

I am not being harsh, merely direct. I won’t mince words just to spare your feelings. I have seen you make several posts across different articles on this blog. Most of your posts engage in a well established brand of “soft-bigotry” that is common amongst racists that use faux reason in order to appear sincere and objective. Your rhetoric reads like a quote from an American Renaissance article. Why should I oblige you with formalities when you are in no way here to engage in an intellectually honest discussion?

You are a bigot and it shows in your racist assumptions. You are stupid (in the most strict sense of the definition) because you feign neutrality as your position on race, yet have no qualms with jumping into a debate in order to support the racist assumptions of another poster. That is the very essence of stupidity: careless decision making. If you are looking for sympathy, check between “R” and “T” in the dictionary.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 05:14:33 V-4

Depending on how you look at it; “aspects” of the pathogenic host aren’t incorrect, after all african-americans are over-represented in violent crime and if you are on the low end of society you do lose out to guys who are willing to work for half the pay or less than you and don’t need benefits, retirement or any vacation/days off.

That being said; its kind of blaming the wrong side for the problems, but for some reason much like white washed blacks, these people are what “class washed” low/middle class folks.

Thay have some kind of midieval-aged nobility thing going on, “oh don’t give more funding to schools, don’t give more benefits to poor people, and tax the middle class on down more” but they raise hell if you increase taxes to the rich or the working man forms unions.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 05:18:01 V-4

Things that confuse me; how can white leadership be so great if its bringing the country down?

Also; if conservatism/republicanism made such great economics/politics, why is the south currently and historically so brutally poverty stricken? Why are all red states for that matter poverty stricken aside from Alaska, and it has oil, and I think one other red state.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 06:30:08 Linda

“Riverside_Rob,
this statement however; makes it sound like both the derivative and the integral already existed and were found to be inverses. I think that they were created to be that way.”

Linda says,

Derivative and Integration Had Indeed Already existed, and Newton/ Leibniz formulated a concept to show that they were inverse — This concept demonstrated a connection between integration and differentiation

but these two concepts that Newton/Leibniz connected, already existed — Newton/Leibniz DID NOT create derivative (differentiation) or integral — this is Not my opinion, it’s a historical Fact.

as I stated, Newton/ Leibniz, piggy-backed on an Already Existing theorem and advanced it one step further by showing a relationship that was inverse; and the history books already gives them All the credit (and just a by-line to the other Mathematicians that contributed to the theorems of Calculus)

“When we convey the impression that Newton and Leibniz created calculus out of whole cloth, we do our students a disservice. We present mathematicians as creatures of an entirely different level of mental ability. Newton and Leibniz were brilliant, but not even they were capable of inventing or discovering calculus.

The body of mathematics we know as calculus developed over many centuries in many different parts of the world, not just western Europe but also ancient Greece, the Middle East, India, China, and Japan. Newton and Leibniz drew on a vast body of knowledge about topics in both differential and integral calculus.”

http://apcentral.collegeboard.com/apc/members/features/2015.html

There is nothing you can find that will state that Newton or Leibniz invented or formulated Derivatives and Integration… good luck looking for that

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 06:52:57 Linda

All the scientists and mathematicians who contributed back then, acknowledged that they learned and studied the works of the Greeks and others, and the Greeks admitted and acknowledge that they studied and learned from the Africans and Middle East.

if they admitted it, then you should just accept it and move on (it’s also OK to give credit to the people who originated a concept or idea that assisted your own)

your white historians already gave Europe the accolades as the “creators” of an already existing science — I’m not here to compound the existing insult to injury.

and also, it is not just “black” people who say these things,

Below is a blog from an Indian man who also is not too pleased with how white western/Europe like to take credit for things without acknowledging where they got it from.

(I don’t agree with everything he is saying, I’m just using him as an example of someone from a non-white, non-American/European country)

“Even before that in 1580 Matteo Ricci borrowed Calculus Malayalam texts from Calicut kings in 1580, never to return it. ( those days there were NO fax or photostat machines ). Whish and Hyne stole Calculus texts from Trichur Temple Library a few years later.

It was John Wallis , while he was the keeper of Oxford University archives who first started pondering over translated Mathematics stolen from India.

John Wallis patented Vedic Math infinity and infinitesimal ( Vishnu reclining in horizontal 8 position ) in his own name. Rest he could NOT understand . What ever he could make head or tail of, he included in his Arithmatica Infinitorum and Treatise on Algebra.

His baton was taken over by Isaac Barrow, who tutored Isaac Newton in Kerala Calculus.”

http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.com/2011/01/isaac-newton-calculus-thief-capt-ajit.html

It would be interested to see if any of his claims have validity.

Like I said, this post is about what happens when a society marginalizes other people’s contributions and then wonders why there is disharmony and resentment.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 11:21:49 abagond

@ Kiwi

“Interesting point of view. I always found it strange when whites expect blacks and Hispanics to be grateful towards white people for “white” technologies like running water and electricity, because no white person has ever come up to me and thanked me for the compass, gunpowder, paper, or early printing. Why the double standard?”

I agree, that is STRANGE. I am supposed to be grateful to some random-ass white person for “white” inventions? Not just that, but I am supposed to turn a blind eye to all the bad things whites have done or else I am not showing the proper level of gratitude for these inventions? Wow.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 11:26:01 abagond

@ Biff

1. What is the “narrative”?

2. Not sure what your point is. You seem to be saying the pathogenic model is not how whites see things, yet you seem to assume its truth when you talk about your thought experiments: that blacks and Hispanics would screw things up if they had power, or at least that whites and Asians would act according to such a belief.

3. A huge hole in your way of thinking is that you seem to think that whites know best (white paternalism). This does not square with the historical experience of Black and Native America, Vietnam, El Salvador, Iraq, etc.

4. Why not a future where no one race has a majority? If whites could learn to work with others and not always want everything their way, that would be the best.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 11:29:11 abagond

Interesting how the White Invention, Detroit, Broken Africa, black crime and other such tropes came up here to support the pathogenic model.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 13:03:58 Randy

Kiwi:

So why is it if Jews are oppressed, everybody defends them, but if blacks are oppressed, everybody blames them? Racism is only wrong when the victim is white. *cue: Holocaust industry*

Jews were herded into ghettos at gunpoint. A similar paradigm does not apply today to black Americans, as the blog author himself personally demonstrates by his middle-class lifestyle.

Also, the “blame the victim” trope often erroneously conflates the concepts “blame” and “accountability”.

If people desire to be treated as agents with free will and natural rights, which the vast majority of people do, then they also have to accept accountability for their condition in life, even when exogenous forces affect them.

For example, if a storm blows a tree down on top of your garage, you’re responsible (accountable) for repairing it or arranging for it to be repaired. The concept of “blame” need not even be part of the discussion.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 13:16:00 Da Jokah

@ abagond

Interesting how you think writing a post about those arguments invalidates them. It doesn’t.

___

@ Anne

“Let’s see if I have this right. If a certain population has 35 percent of group A, 34 percent of group B, 22 percent of group C, and 9 percent of group D, then that makes group B a minority of the population? ”

Yeah. That’s what minority means. Less than 50%.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 14:41:53 Herneith

Randy, Jews had been living in ghettos around Europe for centuries. Your comparison is negligible. Anyways, is Riverside Bob your dumber cousin? He seems to write like you but he is not as verbose, maybe you could give him some lessons on confounding folks with nonsense as is your want. Carry on Randy, someone has to uphold intellectual racism and you’re it! What say you?

@Da Jokah;

Will your hilarity never stop?

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 15:17:23 Anne

@ Da Jokah

Exactly. If minority means less than 50% then then all four groups in my example are minorities. And whatever slight difference in percentage of population between groups A and B exists, they are all still both technically minorities. So when referring to Trinidad, Indians, Blacks and mixed race people are all minorities. Thanks for helping me clear that up.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 15:37:54 King of Trouble

@ Randy, was it known that the roots of the tree were weak? Had previous warning been given that you felt that tree was unsafe, then yes if it is on city property there is someone to blame. Just as in the case of the tree that fell in the summer camp that killed a camp counselor the power company was to blame. They were responsible for checking. I think that is how companies in the country get away with poisoning the lakes, ponds, and stream because of silly arguments like that.
Now lets go back years ago the tree was supported by a forest so the likely hood of the tree falling because of wind was less. Yet because of development in the area and deforestation instead of having the wind cut by other trees this tree has to take on the full brunt of wind. Now that would be city planning?

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 15:46:34 jefe

@Riverside_Rob

You keep on saying “if I do hold these stereotypes”. It sounds like you are not sure whether they are stereotypes or the truth.

Wow.

No wonder so many people believe stereotypes are true. I guess it just “feels” true so it must be true.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 15:50:04 jefe

@Herneith
D J is a comic strip character. Are you a Batman fan? I was never really into that comic hero or the other characters, but I thought Robin was funny.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 17:51:39 Biff

@abagond

Happy to respond to your points/inquiries:

1. What is the “narrative”?

It is essentially the politically correct revisionism of history. White males are the bad guys now, and pretty much the only ones. They are responsible for all the ills of the world and we aren’t allowed to talk about the value of the Western culture they created. The narrative also has a sexual element. We are allowed to consider biological differences between the sexes only when it benefits women. For instance, we should support women becoming combat troops regardless of the actual effect on our fighting forces, but it wouldn’t be ok to have the draft for women. Hopefully, you get the idea. You can find the “narrative” being taught in most Western schools now, and you are very proficient in it. However, ironically, no one outside of the West really believes the narrative, although it can always be used to guilt trip Western powers.

2. Not sure what your point is. You seem to be saying the pathogenic model is not how whites see things, yet you seem to assume its truth when you talk about your thought experiments: that blacks and Hispanics would screw things up if they had power, or at least that whites and Asians would act according to such a belief.

It’s a subtle, but important, distinction There’s no pathology in a stable system. It’s recent changes and changes now on the horizon that potentially make the system pathogenic. “Screw up” sounds bad, maybe not be able to maintain the same level of social services/economic prowess if more to the point. whites and Asians are already acting according to this belief based on where they choose to live and send their kids to school. I would like to be proved wrong, really I would. Reports showing that globally black IQs were dramatically increasing compared to other races would be music to my ears.

3. A huge hole in your way of thinking is that you seem to think that whites know best (white paternalism). This does not square with the historical experience of Black and Native America, Vietnam, El Salvador, Iraq, etc.

Whites can and do make huge mistakes, especially when trying to rule over a foreign nation. However, that’s not the point (getting into comparisons of mistakes made by different races won’t be dispositive or productive). The point is quality of life in a society given different ethnic mixes based on what has been seen in the real world.

4. Why not a future where no one race has a majority? If whites could learn to work with others and not always want everything their way, that would be the best.

Nice reframe. Again, if things work out great in this system, as it develops, I’ll be the first to applaud. If whites can see that their standard of living will not be threatened, then they will likely be very cooperative. The narrative sounds great in a lecture hall.The evidence I’ve seen based on the communities I’ve lived in just leads me to believe this is highly unlikely. That’s it.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 18:53:06 Rick Marauderdad Buddhuu Cadger

I don’t see the point in the pissing contest over who is most responsible for our body of knowledge. Without the foundations laid by thinkers in Africa, Asia etc, would European thinkers have been able to reinvent all the metaphorical wheels? Without some of the later European thinkers, would all the ideas that came out of Africa, Asia etc necessarily have realised their potential as much as they have? Innovation and later development of thought may also have flowed in the other direction – I don’t know (or care), I’m not a historian.

We are a clever race (read species). Share the credit already.

And, yes, I acknowledge that whites have stolen stuff (ideas, people, resources). It’s what we did for a career and, in some cases, still do (start wars for oil etc). We don’t all like it, do it, or excuse it.

Also, another cartload of numbers without context being hurled in this comment thread. The stats for percentages of white/POC minorities in certain areas and their coincidence with success/failure are *fragments* of a big picture. Without analysis of context, history, contributory factors, they are not much use in divining truth.

But there will always be people dedicated to the my-race-is-better-than-yours stupidity, just as there will always be people dedicated to the hate-all-members-of-a-race-regardless-of-individual-character-and-merit stupidity.

Sadly, not all of these stupid people wear sheets and pathetic, pointy clown hat masks.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 21:57:10 joshua

Linda, math has always built on the works of others, and many pieces of what would become Calculus existed in various places and various times, but Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz developed Calculus as a rigorous mathematical discipline. There is no doubt of that at all, which even your limited cite supports.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 22:38:25 Sharina

@ Rick

“Sadly, not all of these stupid people wear sheets and pathetic, pointy clown hat masks.”—Yea. That would make them easier to identify. LOL

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 23:08:21 Da Jokah

“Sadly, not all of these stupid people wear sheets and pathetic, pointy clown hat masks.”

Nowadays they wear bow ties and double breasted suits.

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 23:17:52 King

Da Jokah, what is the point you are trying to make with Detroit?

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on Sun Aug 4th 2013 at 23:59:30 Rick Marauderdad Buddhuu Cadger

Bah. Who needs a pointy hat mask to ID a bigot? Just wait for a person to open their mouth or type something. It doesn’t take long.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 00:10:15 Rick Marauderdad Buddhuu Cadger

“Politically correct” is SUCH a flag.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 02:38:59 Camille

Ok so racism is a prejudice combined with a sense of superiority over another race. How does this model not apply to this site? How can you believe the majority of whites are the devils? We aren’t predisposed to hate just like blacks are predisposed to violence. Why can’t there be a common ground? The problem with blogs like this is they fuel the differences and forget the human element. The facts remain that many factors outside of race make more of a difference than race: Clothing, walk, behavior, etc. At what point, do personal decisions play into the conversation? Racism becomes a hard topic for whites not because of the conversation, but because we are instantly made the monster in the closet. How do we overcome thoughts like this? We accept that we are evil for having prejudices like everyone else? Prejudices that are built on thoughts just like the ones spoken on this site? At what point are all the sins of generations before forgiven? The questions posed on this blog make the argument so one sided. Personal decisions, role models, and disadvantage due to socio economic systems are the problem. White children just like black children are plagued by a lack of compassion and options. The argument at that point becomes what do we do to help all the communities that are in need? We should all be angry that our government places more of a priority on big business and the upper class than they do on our children. Once we decide that the problems are a chaste system as opposed to a race system we might be able to tackle the problem of racism… Which in my opinion is a smoke screen. Why can’t there be a discussion on why we have a planned parenthood in most poverty areas, but not a child care center adequate enough to handle and provide stable and loving care? Why do we demonize single moms that have no other options than to live in crime ridden neighborhoods with bad schools, less than adequate child care, and little to no after school programs? We place so much emphasis on white devils or blacks thugs that we lose sight of the fact that we are dealing with children that idolize adults white and black as long as they are given the chance. I might be my fathers child, but I am not my father.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 02:48:19 King of Trouble

@ Camille, one of the main reasons when coming to this topic about racism that you might be made to feel like “the devil in the closet” is simple. If you only feel that way during a talk about racism, please think about blacks who have to walk the street and feel like the devil just going out. The clutching of purses, the moving to the other side of the sidewalk, the being followed around in stores. If you are upset about a conversation that probably won’t last than a few minutes or even a few hours, think about how it feels to have to go through life feeling like a walking demon every time you go out.

I understand your concerns about children. I think poor of all ethnic groups get the short end of the stick. I wish we would stop dickering around with our kids and actually decided they are our greatest resource in making this country a successful one. Yet, that doesn’t seem to be on the list and yet this country is still set to serve the majority crowd. When you get showered in that devil in the closet feeling remember some of us have to swim in it, some of us have to live in it.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 03:14:07 mstoogood4yall

“Ok so racism is a prejudice combined with a sense of superiority over another race.”

wrong, racism is more than just a sense of superiority or prejudice, it is action behind that sense. Like discrimination and making it so nobody is equal to you economically, socially,etc.

“Racism becomes a hard topic for whites not because of the conversation, but because we are instantly made the monster in the closet ”

so I guess when jews talk about the holocaust they are supposed to sugar coat it and be reasonable as not to hurt the Nazis. Racism is what whites do and benefit from, I find it comical that whites feel like they are being attacked when discussions of race and racism come up. Meanwhile when the conversation is not being discussed black and other people of color are getting hurt and killed because of racism. So why are we to consider only whites feelings when discussing something that hurts,affect, and costs us our lives. so if racism is a hard topic for whites to talk about just imagine how hard it is to be a victim of it.

“We accept that we are evil for having prejudices like everyone else”

Again the problem isn’t prejudices, as yes everyone as them whether with food or ppl, but the difference is whites use their prejudices to hurt others by denying them jobs, housing, etc. Again racism cannot exist without putting those prejudices into practice, if whites did not use their prejudices to hurt ppl they would be like everyone else.

“At what point are all the sins of generations before forgiven?”

Idk ask the creator.

“Once we decide that the problems are a chaste system as opposed to a race system we might be able to tackle the problem of racism”

It used to be a chaste system, before race was created. Now it is a race system, we have to put race on everything thus making it easier to be discriminated against. If it was just a chaste system then the first question would be how much money u make not what is ur race.

“Why can’t there be a discussion on why we have a planned parenthood in most poverty areas, but not a child care center adequate enough to handle and provide stable and loving care?”

There have been discussions about this, and its not just in poverty areas but specifically minority neighborhoods. I don’t see planned parenthood by a trailer park.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 04:24:08 Linda

“joshua
Linda, math has always built on the works of others, and many pieces of what would become Calculus existed in various places and various times, but Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz developed Calculus as a rigorous mathematical discipline. There is no doubt of that at all, which even your limited cite supports.”

Linda says,

Joshua, every time you speak, you reveal that you have no clue — it’s obvious you clicked on the link I provided and read it, but yet, you still walked away clueless.

Do you even understand how the word “rigorous” is applied to Calculus, or rather, Mathematics period?

Because from the comment you just made, you make it plain that you’re ignorant of that information (don’t you have any smart friends that are Computer Engineers or into Physics? I’m getting tired of having to educate you)

Mathematics has been a “rigorous discipline” from the days of Archimedes but what changes is the “level of rigour” — it is relative… Newton spent his career trying to make his work “rigorous” and Leibniz could have cared less about his work being “rigorous” (it took Augustin Cauchy, 100 years later, to give “rigour” to Newton’s work)

“However when Berkeley published his Analyst in 1734 attacking the lack of rigour in the calculus and disputing the logic on which it was based much effort was made to tighten the reasoning. Maclaurin attempted to put the calculus on a rigorous geometrical basis but the really satisfactory basis for the calculus had to wait for the work of Cauchy in the 19th Century.”

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/HistTopics/The_rise_of_calculus.html

Newton and Leibniz DID NOT invent Calculus.. deal with it and get over it already… “denial” is not a good look when historical FACTS goes against your opinion.

your white scholars have accepted it and admitted it, so you need to also and stop embarrassing yourself.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 12:31:37 Randy

Herneith:

Randy, Jews had been living in ghettos around Europe for centuries. Your comparison is negligible. Anyways, is Riverside Bob your dumber cousin? He seems to write like you but he is not as verbose, maybe you could give him some lessons on confounding folks with nonsense as is your want. Carry on Randy, someone has to uphold intellectual racism and you’re it! What say you?

I think one can reasonably argue that Jewish ghettos under Nazi occupation were significantly worse than they had been previously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ghettos_in_Europe

Perhaps a better argument for you to have made was that in some cases, black folks under Jim Crow were indeed forced to live in ghettos, ultimately under threat of violence.

As far as I know, I’m not related to Riverside_Rob. It’s not as though all of us white folks get together every Thursday afternoon at the Ceylon Club for brandies and Cubans and to talk wistfully of the bygone days of her Majesty’s empire. Wait, I’ve said too much already.

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 14:51:13 v8driver

I think some of the problem of addressing racism with american whites is not only indifference and aloofness/perceived “separation” from the problem by eg not living in the hood is also a real trend in the msm to reduce every news item to a 15 second sound bite which encourages a mentality to distractedly say “well look at detroit” or something like that. I saw an interesting video on youtube yesterday by a black conservative who just referred to that city as “an unbroken string of democratic leadership…” of course playing himself into lockstep with the welfare reform republican Viewpoint…
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eymqa5hF7Xg&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
It raises some pretty good points and although i dont agree with this guy politically or religiously and his speaking style aint ready for congress… its good

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on Mon Aug 5th 2013 at 15:51:06 Herneith

Ever hear of pogroms Randy, ongoing attacks on the Jewish ghettos over the centuries? Jews were already forced to live in ghettos before the holocaust especially in Eastern Europe. In fact the pogroms were a precursor to the holocaust. Why do you think they immigrated en masse? Anyhow, back to who will become white!

Let’s see who are already accounted as ‘white’

Southern Italians(300 years of Moorish occupation does that to you)

Spaniards(all that Moorish blood, after 700 years of Moorish occupation it was bound to happen)

Jews

Middle Easterners, especially North Africans(after all Egypt is there)

“Racially’ ambiguous folk veering on the side of white by virtue of their phenotype.(They will however, reveal their admixture if you call them a racist or when it is convenient, for jobs etc,) I have met many ‘indians’ who do this for example. They look ‘white’ phenotypically, but will claim to be ‘indian’ when it suites them. I am sure there are others from different groups who do this, these are the ones I have had experience with hence they serve as illustrative examples.

Eastern Europeans who bear the stamp of Genghis Khan and other Mongols on their features.(Ever wonder why a lot or Eastern Europeans have epicanthic folds ? It ain’t from the glare of the sun, Genghis and his horde were quite frisky as it turned out)

The list is seemingly long ain’t it? Any other suggestions?

Who’s next? Lets start a pool! Everyone can put ten dollars in it. Who ever comes closest wins the jackpot!

All the white washed bungholes out there who would jump at the opportunity to call themselves ‘white’ if allowed to regardless of how they appeared! In fact they would probably have tears of joy trickling down their cheeks when informed of such. They will shout with joy; “I have arrived, I have arrived, thank you lord, I have arrived”(trumpets blowing in the background). In fact, they will have thought they have died and gone to heaven which given their everyday luck, the probably have.

@Randy:

I thought Cuban cigars were banned in the US? Randy you rascal, smoking banned cigars with River_side Bob and Da Jokah. Where is your patriotic fervor? I envision you three at the local bar drinking cheap booze and gradually passing out after holding forth on intellectual racism topics, such as “I am smarter than the negro but not as smart as a chinaman”, I mean asian. Drunkards tend to slip up when in the throes of liquor. Have a good day dear.

http://herneithmyblog.com/2012/04/21/the-day-in-the-life-of-a-white-racist-troll/

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on Tue Aug 6th 2013 at 01:38:48 Drosera

@Sondis

TY, sorry or me being late, but I will check that out

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on Tue Aug 6th 2013 at 20:52:18 Herneith

@Kiwi:

I think I got part of my post mixed up with the who will be white next post. I was laughing to hard when I two fingered typed it! Randy is full of shush-a-tee, but comical none the less.

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on Tue Aug 27th 2013 at 02:46:21 Sundown Towns | The Mind of Brosephus

[…] The diseased host model of American society (abagond.wordpress.com) […]

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on Thu Nov 7th 2013 at 19:45:24 Numerous

The only way America can live up to it’s ideals is through rebellion. Violent or otherwise. America is and always has been, from the outset, a hypocrisy and a failure. It must be overthrown and replaced with people and institutions with the guts to fully realize those ideals of equality and justice for all.

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on Mon Dec 18th 2017 at 12:48:13 munubantu

This diseased model is taken very seriously by some people.
And not just in America. Not jut as a description of American society… but, indeed, the whole World, as it is today!
Look at following links where an Afrikaner (White South African) shares his concerns about the future of planet Earth in the context of a growing Black population worldwide. He shares his concerns with the readers of American Renaissance magazine, a right-wing outlet. The links

https://www.amren.com/features/2015/07/an-african-planet/
https://www.amren.com/features/2016/01/an-african-planet-part-ii/

American racists and South African racists are very akin, or so it looks!
Blacks are seen there not as the all too benign cockroaches (as in the Rwandan genocide the murderers characterized their victims, remember!) but as locusts which destroy (eat up) everything at their passage… much, much worse!
This global Black problem indeed requires a Final Solution!
To purge the planet Earth of the locusts!

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on Fri Jan 19th 2018 at 20:45:42 jefe

We need a post on Tucker Carlson, who replaced Bill O’Reilly on Fox News.

Tucker Carlson invited “an actual thinker” to explain that Hispanic schoolchildren aren’t American
“The border has moved north.”

(https://www.vox.com/2018/1/19/16909300/tucker-carlson-immigration-arizona-border-mark-steyn)

In any case, this tongue-in-cheek video should explain how it is not just blacks who have an “X” on their back. Anyone who is not perceived as being native-born Anglo-American is seen as threat to American society and culture, and needs to be controlled, punished, or removed.

Why white supremacists love Tucker Carlson
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkQKVMYyPoM)

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