At least in the US in the 2010s, the following are NOT a cure for White racism (click on the links to find out more about a supposed “cure”):
Good intentions – or even “not hating” people of other races. Most White Americans these days do not seem to so much hate people of colour as look down on them. That leads not to an anti-racist, egalitarian view of people but to White paternalism. Like Sandra Bullock in “The Blind Side” (2009) or all those “uplifting” White-teacher-in-the-ghetto films.
Facts – Thomas Jefferson was easily one of the most knowledgeable White Americans of his day, a figure of the Enlightenment. Yet he was still racist. And it was not even that he “did not know better”: Whites in his time, like Ben Franklin, were already pushing to end of the slave trade. Jefferson himself wrote, “All men are created equal” – while owning 175 Black slaves. The trouble was not facts or ideas, but a moral conflict of interest:
White guilt – Anger at racism, not guilt, is what helps. White guilt is what led to racism in the first place. It is what allowed most White Americans to go on thinking of themselves as good Christians while living on Dead Indian Land and Black slave labour, benefiting from inequalities that come down to this day.
Black friend, Asian wife, etc – In practice this does not work. Particularly the Asian wife thing since many (not all) people of colour who marry White suffer from internalized racism, racism against their own race. Chescaleigh on YouTube in “Shit White Girls Say … to Black Girls” gives wonderful examples of the just the sort of little racist things that well-meaning White people with Black friends say.
Going with what most White people think – Most White Americans are still racist and seemingly blind to it, so this is a particularly bad idea. You are much better off doing the opposite by questioning what they believe.
Not seeing colour – This is itself racist. What if I said stuff like, “I do not see you as a New Yorker, I just see a human being” or “I do not care what city you are from, we all bleed red.” It would only show that I have a hang-up about New Yorkers.
Becoming a White ally – Can lead to White paternalism. See above for “Good intentions”.
Adopting a child of colour – Does not always work in practice. Look at Madonna!
Watching “The Wire”, etc – the show’s creators are probably less racist than most White Americans. At least they avoid many of the mistakes Hollywood makes in showing Black characters. But, despite all their good intentions, despite being armed with “facts”, they still stereotype Blacks and view them through a lens of White paternalism. Most White American film, television, news, books, etc – and even some Black American ones (Tyler Perry films, “Precious”) – help to strengthen racism rather than weaken it.
Thanks to commenter Elridge S for inspiring this post.
See also:
- My advice to white people
- prejudice – what psychologists know about the nature of prejudiced thinking.
- growing up white – how Whites become unracist
Good post here! Additionally, people need to further realize how much racism (and sexism, classism, etc) is institutionalized, internalized, and unconscious.
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this post after refuting the most common assumptions about what could cure racism then leads to a obvious question – what will?
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“Adopting a child of color: Madonna is a good example of even if you adopt a child of color in her case, when she referred to her son as “This “N-word” here.” SMH.
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I think that when it comes to the conversation about fighting institutional inequalities the distinct differences between prejudice and racism need to be made clear. Racism (hatred or the explicit belief in racial supremacy) isn’t much of a problem in the United states anymore; however, anti-black prejudice (the split-second prejudgements people make based on stereotypes) is, and non-blacks, namely whites, are not the only ones who are dealing with this issue. Plenty have black people (see colorism) hold anti-black prejudices about their own race too.
Framing racism as the primary problem is the exact reason why white Americans feel as though they can do all of the things that you listed, while persistently unchecking their implicit anti-black biases. They feel as though because they do not hold a virulent hatred towards blacks or use the ‘N’ word that they good people, and good people do not discriminate. This is how they see not only themselves, but their friends and family and most importantly, our country. In their mistaken minds, the United States is color-blind and fair and black people are the sole cause for their own problems.
So I am making a plea to all anti-racist to reframe this conversation in order to better fight against inequalities in America and the world.
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Stop trying to reach white people. Instead, try to reach young black children by preparing them for the white supremacist, racist society their about to enter!
Trying to convince white people of something they are already aware of but pretend not to be, is a waste of brain power!
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To Kiwi:
It also says something that Asian girls are adopted way more often by whites than Asian boys are. This is yet another reflection of white people’s ubiquitous preference for Asian females over Asian males.
It is likely more due to the availability of Asian females for adoption as opposed to Asian males.
“The China adoption program is one of the most reliable and stable, and China is the country from which most U.S. citizens have elected to adopt since the year 2000. In 2011, U.S. citizens adopted approximately 2,587 children from China. Children available for adoption are mostly girls, infants to 6 years of age.”
http://china.adoption.com/
Kiwi said:
Whites also adopt Asians more often than blacks due to the Model Minority stereotype.
Adoption of black children by white parents was heavily limited for decades due to the influence of the National Association of Black Social Workers.
” Then during the civil rights movement, interracial adoptions in the United States increased dramatically and the numbers more than tripled from 733 cases in 1968 to 2,574 cases in 1971. (There are now about 6,500 cases a year.) It was then that the National Association of Black Social Workers condemned interracial adoption citing that adoptees were at risk for developing a poor racial identity due to lack of contact with role models of the same race. In the 1990s the placement of black children into non-black homes virtually came to a complete stop.”
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Interesting stuff!!!
Sent from my iPad Harold Moss
>
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Great post.
On Thomas Jefferson: some information came out about him that does seem to be very legitimate. Apparently, he actually paid his Black workers because he didn’t believe in slavery. The Jefferson Bible was actually edited to get to “get to the point of it” and was made to be handed out to American Indians because he wanted to evangelise to them. Also, the story about the pregnant Black slave girl turned out not to be true. It was recanted in the newspaper after the claim was made, but they ran with the claim but buried the recant in a tiny section of the paper.
I don’t know, it may all be true, but the historian who spoke on it during a show I saw seemed legitimate. He had a clipping of the recant newspaper article.
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I’m pretty thick skinned with out and out racism, it doesn’t really bother me. But one thing I’m having to learn to deal with is my frustration at the ifs, buts and maybes, where people start explaining things away. The whole “not really thing” boils my blood. Im like, “I’m wasn’t asking for your opinion on the matter, my observation wasn’t a question, where are going with these if, buts, and maybes?” I’ll get there soon, I’ve even recently gotten over the “you’re racist for saying its racist thing,” which I was recently greeted with after asking a White woman not to use the n word because it’s racist, which. . .. apparently made me a racist. Surely I will have mastered everything after that!
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@UM,
Your references and rationalizations in no way invalidate any of Kiwi’s assertions. All it does it suggest that there may be multiple explanations for a phenomenon other than the few they he had mentioned. Obviously, if the assertions he made were not also true, then the situation would not build to accommodate the factors that you suggested (which are probably also true).
In any case, neither explains why white people are so drawn to going overseas (as opposed to seeking domestic sources) to adopt babies of colour, and this attraction is even strong enough to develop a market for babies there, even a black market.
Also, apparently white people did not heed the idea “that adoptees were at risk for developing a poor racial identity due to lack of contact with role models of the same race.” by going out and adopting Korean and Chinese born baby girls. Maybe they think that they can raise them just like white kids, or maybe it will make them feel that they are less racist somehow. Either way, it is damaging to the child’s psychological development.
Did the National Association of Black Social Workers also lobby against the adoption on non-American black babies? There was no agency who was concerned about the transracial adoption of non-American Asian babies?
I am aware of the strong demand for the baby trafficking market in China. The domestic one primarily focuses on boys. Families who are bound by the one-child policy and did not have a boy may seek to get one from elsewhere. Baby boys get snatched on the street and girls get abandoned or aborted. But, I don’t think this excuses the role that white Americans play in the baby trafficking problem.
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@GR
Which box? You mean the 16th -17th century European occupation of places outside Europe and the human trafficking to those locations?
Actually, the most logical and workable solution is to abandon “whiteness” (as an ideology), but you seemed to be completely confused by that concept. You thought it meant giving up identifying as “white” which you thought was impossible. Maybe the first step in the solution is to teach white people what is meant by “whiteness”, and what it means to give it up.
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Abagond, when you have a chance, can you kindly explain what caused the last 2 comments to be moderated? Thanks.
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@Kiwi,
I know it wasn’t false. My point was that that information in no way invalidated what you said.
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Jefe, Kiwi,
The topic of adoption may be getting off topic for this thread but there are multiple other factors at play with adoption. (I’ve had two family members that were adopted…)
Although I do agree that there is more bias against adult Asian men in the US than adult Asian women, here are many other factors at play with adoption such that adoptive parents are generally happy if they get a healthy infant of either gender. It is simply not that easy, even in most foreign countries, to simply walk into an orphanage and say I’ll take that one. If the supply of Asian girls put up for international adoption is markedly higher than for boys, wouldn’t it follow that you would have more Asian girls adopted…? Also for adoption in the US, girls of any race are favored 65% to 35% over boys.
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People say they don’t see colour to try to convey that they aim not to let the colour of someone’s skin determine how they treat them. This may or may not be true of any one individual, but it does not convey racism to say that. It is a metaphor not a literal statement. They are not really saying they physically can’t see their black skin, or that it is a problem to them which they are mentally blocking, only that they won’t let it affect how they see someone as a human being.
If people from Boston had a history of frosty relations with New Yorkers a Bostonian might say they don’t see someone as a New Yorker but as a fellow American, to show that they won’t let other bitter and prejudiced Bostonians or New Yorkers determine how they treat someone from another ‘rival’ city. It doesn’t necessarily mean that that Bostonian is a dirty two faced liar veiling his hidden prejudice against people from the Big Apple or that he is plotting to divide, dominate and oppress the New Yorker and others of his city by underhand and devious means.
By the way, you spell colour with a ‘u’ and not without like most Americans. Any particular reason?
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@UM
Adoption is not really exactly off topic at all, since one of the assertions in the post is that *some* white persons may believe that by adopting babies of colour, they can assuage their feelings of guilt or are doing something to help cure racism or improve race relations.
Of course the primary motive will be getting a healthy baby (although I would argue that adopting babies with some physical or mental challenges might even be a better sign of “love”), it will be difficult to deny that whites who specifically target “coloured kids” as objects of adoption have not considered their racist attitudes, even at only a subconscious level.
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sondis said:
Sadly, I think sondis is absolutely right.
How long ago did white people start claiming that all men are created equal? For the moment let’s ignore the patriarchal overtones of the language used there that hints at gender inequality. Let’s also ignore economic inequality. Let’s concentrate on the current topic. So, a declaration of intrinsic equality among all people, contemporary with ownership and abuse of POC by whites. There was denial – right there, at the outset.
How long ago was that? Between then and now we had the high profile civil rights activism of the 1960s and the equally conspicuous, angrier approach of the Black Panthers et al. White people cannot claim to be ignorant of racism, nor can we claim to be unaware that there is no rational justification for it.
Some, naive, whites honestly believe that they live in relatively enlightened times and that the race problem is getting better: that it isn’t such a big problem now. This is the ignorance of privilege, of people who can ignore something because it doesn’t affect us.
IMO, POC can never reach or teach the majority of white people. Even the tiny minority of unblinkered, white anti-racists can’t get the majority of whites to take them seriously. If a red-pill white person tries to explain the reality of white privilege and persistent racism to an average white person, the reaction is as blank as if one had tried to convince them that Hobbits lived in the next street. It does not compute. And even if it did, most wouldn’t care, not any more than they care about the homeless. It doesn’t affect them.
To most white people, not being racist extends as far as being glad that Pakistani shopkeepers open their stores at Christmas, liking music made by black people and admiring the achievements of black athletes. They’ll even have a couple of black or Asian friends, just to confirm to themselves that racism is a thing of the past.
You can’t change their attitudes. We, slightly more awake whites, cannot change their attitudes.
When I first started coming here I was rather more naive and optimistic than I am now.
The current elitist systems that run the world are beyond reform by education. One way or another, something untidy is headed for the fan. 😦
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buddhuu said:
“How long ago did white people start claiming that all men are created equal?”
I actually think that the idea of equality helped to spawn racism, or at least strengthen it.
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Interesting. Would you expand a little?
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If you have the idea that everybody has the same rights and you have slavery, you are in a moral dilemma. One way to resolve it, is to construct that some people are not equal by nature, so it would be silly to say they have the same rights. I think that is at the bottom both of scientific and religious racism
If you don’t think all men are euqal, as they did in pre-enlightenment Europe, you don’t need a justification why people have different rights. Peasants just were peasants, you didn’t have to think of them as less human.
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“many (not all) people of colour who marry White suffer from internalized racism”
This is a pretty sweeping statement and it is directly contrary to my anecdotal and observed evidence. I recognize that my personal life may have produced a limited body of evidence, but within my ken most people of color who marry white are proud of their ethnic heritage and enjoy positive self-image within their ethnic community. I’ve not done any research to see if somebody has gathered a statistically significant body of evidence on this point.
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“For the moment let’s ignore the patriarchal overtones of the language used there that hints at gender inequality”.
Men means men and woman in that context. The word meant both sexes historically.
“Some, naive, whites honestly believe that they live in relatively enlightened times and that the race problem is getting better: that it isn’t such a big problem now. This is the ignorance of privilege, of people who can ignore something because it doesn’t affect us.”
Some blacks feel the same way. They are ‘naive’ and ‘privileged’ too I guess.
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Ally said:
*Sigh*, I know that. I was merely observing that, by accident or design, the language has been shaped so that the catch-all term for the species is the same as the word for the male of that species.
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@Kartoffel:
Thanks for that. I see what you’re saying.
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Excellent post, as usual.
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Exactly!…That moral dilemma is supremacy whether you believe one or specific groups of people are superior to everyone else. You can either individually choose to go along with this way of thinking or not – It doesn’t matter whether you benefit or do not benefit from such a belief system. It is whether you believe this is morally right to believe for yourself as a human being OR Not! Its that simple!
Thats it take responsibility for your own thoughts and actions. If you believe in your own superiority over anyyone else; whether this be whites, non-whites, women even animals and nature; then you are responsible for your own contribution to this false self-servicing destructive mindset.
As long as you see yourself as separate from the rest of the world you will sooner or later get your wish cease to be a part of it…
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Then why mention it at all when you know the facts? You appear to be mining for sexism which isn’t there.
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Ally said:
I have no idea what you’re talking about. My point, made in passing, but with the suggestion to ignore and not get diverted by it, was that the privilege of dominant groups (white, male, rich) is reflected even in the language used to declare that we are equal.
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@ George @ Jefe
“Trafficking” was a moderated word. Probably because it was favoured by some past troll who knew how to change his IP address. It is now no longer moderated.
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@GR
No can do. Have not identified anywhere in the world where white people were willing to abandon their whiteness ideology, not even by those living in ex-colonial territories where whites are minorities. Maybe there is such a place that I have not discovered yet.
Nope. Just because it would be a solution doesn’t mean that those in power want to give it. They will try to stop it. The closest I have seen where it might come into place is Hawaii, where in the context of day to day living, there is not such a clear major advantage to hold on to whiteness ideology. However, even there, you will still find it, esp. in the main power circles. But at least you can get an idea of what it “sorta” feels like to have whiteness be less important.
I did not feel the need (as I did in the mainland USA) to create a Model Minority syndrome for whites to convince Asians to help them hold down blacks, or whites panicking because because of high percentages of Asians in their neighborhoods or schools. And I did not sense so much, the pathological fear of blacks that most whites and some Asians had in the USA.
In the Mainland USA, those with power and money hold steadfastly to the ideology as though they would die without it. And most other whites just accept it as “given”. I would like to see it go away.
Are you still confused by the meaning of giving up or abandoning whiteness?
I think it is the word traffic-king which contains groups of letters which are flagged down by his moderated word test. Or let’s see if this word goes through.
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Ha!, he beat me to the answer. 😛
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@GR,
If you grew up in US education system and its media, then you learned whiteness growing up. Pretty much everyone takes it up. Even those who grew up in Hawaii learned it to a large degree.
Most blacks (not all) have to dismantle it, at least for themselves, at a fairly young age. They *might* or might not have parents or someone else help them. If they get older, they might make the psychological leap to re-embrace whiteness for personal reward purposes (career, money, politics, etc.). They might be viewed as a sellout to some, but whatever they are doing (by re-embracing whiteness) reinforces the status quo.
Many Asian-Americans may also have to dismantle it, and for some, it comes at a later age if they did not experience the need at a young age or their parents did not feel the need to teach them (which may be the case for either immigrant parents or whitewashed parents). Some might dismantle it at a younger age. Also, some who experimented with discarding whiteness, re-embrace it later on for personal reward purposes (career, money, social, etc). A significant amount of Asian-Americans end up embracing whiteness as an ideology because they absorbed the Model Minority Paradigm and obey its requirements – many, but certainly not all.
For Latinos, I think it is very complicated thing to assume and then discard, as race is a more complicated issue for them. I think “whiteness” for Latinos would require a long set of processes to describe.
White people (not unlike Blacks, Asians or anyone else for that matter) have to actively discard whiteness if they decided to give it up. I can’t see how anyone who grew up in the USA never took up whiteness in the first place. It is what is rammed down our throats every day in school, on TV, in the movies, in the news, etc. For people with white parents who grew up in a majority white neighbourhood and went to a majority white school and used textbooks written by white people, you wouldn’t be learning anything else. So you have to consciously reject it if you wanted to discard it.
So, if you don’t know whether or not you have given it up, and are still confused by what it means, then you have not given it up.
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@Abagond
“The trouble was not facts or ideas, but a moral conflict of interest”
Jefferson probably thought slavery was wrong (at least he said so in his writings), but I don’t believe Jefferson thought owning slaves was wrong. If he freed them, he would have to live in the same society with them, and he said the “the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government.” So he was like Lincoln in thinking they should be free somewhere over there, but not in America.
So no matter how much people abhor the idea of racism, as long as they see themselves as different, they will think they are justified in their racist actions.
@Pragmatist
“Racism (hatred or the explicit belief in racial supremacy) isn’t much of a problem in the United states anymore…anti-black prejudice (the split-second prejudgements people make based on stereotypes) is..”
“Racism also means “prejudice” or “poor treatment of” people based on race, at least according to Oxford or Merriam-Webster.
If racism “isn’t much of a problem” in the US, then the statistics that suggest African Americans are poorly treated must be lying.
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Great posts Buuddhu
While I understand the attempts at extending crytical analysis from POC to encourage engagement and growth on racism in its various forms, I also do feel there’s sometimes an element of asking for permission in it, as opposed to POC just living it out in their own lives.
@Resw77
Thanks very much for the information. While you give people the benefit of the doubt when clearing the name of many White historical figures, Antebellum figures in particular, it cannot always be trusted. I was suspicious of the claims but gave it an open mind. Thanks again.
I’m unsure of this “Whiteness thing.” I assume it means Whiteness being the default, the measuring stick, so to speak.
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^^^
*extending critical analysis
Resw77
Great post! Completely agree with the current climate being one of anti Blackness more than White supremacy. . .. but on second thought, if Blackness is stigmatized and proselytized as the worst and most inferior, perhaps that makes Whiteness the perfect default by way of being seen as the opposite of Blackness.
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@jefe I would say that some US born people of color who consume POC-dominant media, such as Bollywood, Chinese TV and Nollywood, and adopt more of a transnational identity are more able to resist whiteness. It’s not a perfect solution by any means because you have to remember that you’re American and not a (guy from your parents’ country).
For example to me as a Chinese, the idea of model minority is bizarre, as is the feud between some black and Asian kids regarding “model minority” vs “problem minority”. People believing it, is even weirder to me.
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To buddhuu
“I have no idea what you’re talking about. My point, made in passing, but with the suggestion to ignore and not get diverted by it, was that the privilege of dominant groups (white, male, rich) is reflected even in the language used to declare that we are equal.”
But that is precisely the point, the word doesn’t imply a specific gender and so there is no sexual preference implied in the language if you understand the root of the word, as you claimed to do.
You felt the need to mention it even though there is no sexism in the statement. If you don’t want people to get diverted why mention it in the first place?
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With reference to Kwamla’s post:
“Thats it take responsibility for your own thoughts and actions. If you believe in your own superiority over anyone else; whether this be whites, non-whites, women even animals and nature; then you are responsible for your own contribution to this false self-servicing destructive mindset.
As long as you see yourself as separate from the rest of the world you will sooner or later get your wish cease to be a part of it…”
It is interesting that you brought up animals. I venture to guess that animal rights will not be of great concern to many who post here. Most people limit what they are offended by to what affects them. Then you get a much smaller number who care about what affects someone else.
Sometimes the latter speak out in order to be applauded by the ‘oppressed’ group, male feminists and white anti racists often have dubious motives (to my jaded eyes anyway) though not necessarily any worse motives than those they are ‘fighting’ for. I have been lectured to by white people about my racial scepticism and lack of political correctness. It is amusing to be preached at by a holier than thou white liberal who has swallowed the race huckster’s manual whole and regurgitates it with tiresome enthusiasm. There is one such on this actual thread.
People are selfish by nature, self conscious black anti racists are no better than anyone else in that respect; most are guided by self interest and have some form of prejudice they either hide or don’t even accept as prejudice at all. For instance, homophobia is very common among ‘Afrocentric’ black Americans, Neely Fuller and Cress Welsing being two examples of homophobic pseudo intellectual buffoons. It is to be found among contributors on this blog as well.
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@Miss Minnie,
I resisted it and eventually pretty much rejected it. But I admit I did not figure out how to survive that and stay in the USA.
But, I cannot see how growing up in the USA, even on a steady diet of “Bollywood, Chinese TV and Nollywood”, one can avoid being inundated with whiteness – it is on every street corner, in every school hall and fills the halls of government. Even on that steady diet, there is no way that it can overcome “Hollywood”. Besides, some of the constructs in the overseas TV and movies also support the notion of “whiteness”. Did you see any of them dismantle it?
I am glad that you have rejected the Model Minority “cr@p”, but please recognize that it was not the result of a feud between some black and Asian kids regarding “model minority” vs “problem minority”, but a white political construct that manipulates Asians to control and punish blacks while maintaining the ideology of whiteness completely intact. We have 150 years of evidence of that tactic.
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@Ally
I think Buddhuu was just making a random observation on the role that racism, misogyny and classism have played despite the claim that “all men are created equally,” while addressing the contradiction regarding the oppression of minority groups. I think he was just touching on the irony.
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@Ally
I think you’ve made some fantastic points. I’ve long been perplexed by the phenomena of minority groups with racist, sexist, or homophobic views. I agree, it’s often self serving. On this blog alone, I’ve been shocked to read sweeping generalisations about one minority group from someone who was part of a minority group, while complaining about being generalised. Sadly, a lot of the fight for progression is about one’s own quality of life and not the morality of the issue, which is an issue Kwamla eloquently touched. There must be less of an accusatory posture and more introspection in the process of the ideologies people proselytize. I believe it’s often the hypocrisy in these issues that cause them to ring as false. It does show itself. I believe you’ve addressed something of importance there.
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@Ebonymonroe
Thanks, but your statement, “if Blackness is stigmatized and proselytized as the worst and most inferior, perhaps that makes Whiteness the perfect default by way of being seen as the opposite of Blackness” is much more thought-provoking!
That he explain why many people view, regardless of their race, treat the lightest people best and the darkest worst.
For me, I have trouble calling people black and white b/c not only are they not black and white, but English and western languages attach stigmas to the word/colour “black” and usually positive attributes to “white,” which goes back to the ancient Romans. If we didn’t say things like “black lie” and “white lie,” for example, while calling Africans black and Europeans white, then I wonder how much things would be different.
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Kiwi, I honestly dont want to sound like im busting your chops on this,again I am sure that in your life, where you live you are seeing the things you are talking about…but, I dont think that was Blanc2 s point…he is saying from his experiance, the people of color who are with white people , arnt bashing their poc men or women…and i agree with him, in my experiance..
Ive had lots of experiance dating black women, and, not one of them was with me and bashed black men , or sounded internaly racist, if anything, some were very proud of who they were (my more dating period was in the late 60’s early 70’s, and its funny, black women were more into black power and black is beautiful , so , they had the confidence and independance to think that they could do what they wanted and date who they wanted, at least the women I was with)…and im not saying there arnt black women who dont play that game , and sometimes, they take so much flak they have no choice but to lash back , but , this isnt a fact or foregone conclusion…only on this blog…
a black woman looking to just be with a white man because she doesnt like her blackness wouldnt like being with me…
i also think, these kind of dating studies of internet dating services are really chumpy and not reliable sources to judge if people of color are sell outs or dont like themselves…this notion of sell out or who is kissing up to be succesful is a strange thing also…because it really does depend on the point of view and i dont trust a lot of points of views that just throw out there who is a sell out…there are also a lot of envious people walking around , too
here is also a quote from the link you brought in
“”Unfortunately the data reveal winners and losers. All men EXCEPT ASIANS (my caps for emphasis) preferred Asian women, while all except black women preferred white men.” I mean looks like it runs both ways in the Asian community…i guess depending on which study you look at…im not too keen on the latest studies either…look at diet studies, they just cant get it right
by the way, I dont prefer Asian women , not that i reject them, they just arnt my preferance…and, as a white man who is in the catagory of the least desirable of black women, I guarentee you, I have no worries or problems about whether I could date a black woman…it just doesnt play into the picture one iota for me…I know that I can connect and demonstrate to a women I am attracted to, that I can treat them right….
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To Ebonymonroe,
Thank you brother. Your comment was appreciated.
You are probably right about Buddhuu. I think he is just trying a little too hard to be the perfect egalitarian, but better that than some other things.
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@ Buddhuu: Hello, glad to have you back.
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@Ally
“For instance, homophobia is very common among ‘Afrocentric’ black Americans, Neely Fuller and Cress Welsing being two examples of homophobic pseudo intellectual buffoons.”
How would you know if “homophobia is very common among ‘Afrocentric’ black Americans” And how are Neely Fuller or Cress Welsing ‘Afrocentric’?
Cress Welsing is not a “pseudo intellectual buffoon” but a practising psychiatrist, which required acceptance to and completion of medical school. She’s more than qualified to speak as a physician and expert on the issues she covers.
Neely Fuller, Jr. does not present himself as an “intellectual” or expert. He says he speaks from experiences and learnings in life.
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@Ebonymonroe: Thanks, I was starting to think I’d been unintentionally obscure! 😀
@Mary Burrell: Thank you, Mary. 🙂 How are you?
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I can’t argue much w/ Abagond’s points above…but I might suggest that everyone could probably use a true ally of any race, although the buzzterm “white ally” makes me cringe. No one deserves a pat on the back or a noble title just for trying to be an adequate human being.
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@ Eldrige S: Amen to that.
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To resw77,
Why wouldn’t I know that homophobia is common among Afrocentric black Americans? It is hardly a secret. One doesn’t have to look far to find it. However, I am sure Mr Abagond would be the first to point that when I say Afrocentric black Americans I don’t mean all of them. His ‘not all….’ argument applies here perfectly.
Cress Welsing came up with her ‘hue-man’ theory of colour which I would define as the essence, or rather the nadir, of the very worst Afrocentric racial thinking, Afrocentric having little to do with Africa and everything to do with American flights of fancy. However, I care little what term you use to describe her and I certainly don’t intend this as a broad attack on all Afrocentric thinkers, only the ludicrous, pseudo scientific ones. Whatever you call her doesn’t make her any less awful or less of a comic figure.
It is as well that Fuller does not call himself an intellectual given his very unacademic approach, though I am sure he thinks of himself as such regardless of what he says to the contrary. If he doesn’t it hardly matters; he is, unfortunately, an influential black American thinker so I think intellectual is an appropriate term to use to describe him.
I don’t care how many degrees Welsing has. White racists of old also had plenty of degrees and impressive sounding jobs to use to underpin their racist drivel. Welsing’s colour theory is a similar pile of bilge and I rather wish she wasn’t in a position to ‘help’ anyone, particularly if she has to deal with anyone gay. I wonder how many black gay men and women she has tried to infect with her repulsive, poisonous mind. Her homophobia would make her a clown in my eyes, even if her comical racial theories did not. She stood out virtually alone against the American Psychological Association when it stopped defining homosexuality as a mental illness.
Welsing and Fuller are foul bigots and if you hadn’t already gathered I absolutely despise them.
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@Elridge S: Sorry for misspelling your name in above comment. Good suggestion for this post might i add.
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OFF TOPIC: homophobia.
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Thanks Mary…I didn’t directly suggest it, but Abagond credited me nonetheless (thanks)…
As for my rant on the post about The Wire, I do agree that it (or watching it) is in no way a cure for racism. At best, it probably opened a few doors in a few white minds, in the sense that they might start viewing “those people” in a more nuanced light when they’re passing through that part of town. And from there, maybe growing more curious about how things got that way, and so on…
In other words, not a cure, but better than nothing.
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abagond you need some serious coaching on saying things in a non racist way yourself…ive already , in about 3 minutes and 3 posts seen at least a dozen things that show why that unless you learn more about “whites” and who did what and who owned what and each point of origin/countries history going back AT least 100O years, that you are part of the problem …. being specific matters for all of our sakes in this discourse, and generalization and pre judgement last i checked was what we, those of us trying to bring the light of consciousness to all bias,what we are trying to move away from, no? you are sincere i believe but unfortunately this is all too common….how this is responded to will say alot and if you want to make a difference it will show in an openess to be clued in on what you may not have realized, and they are glaring and numerous and ineffective even if they WERE accurate! … its not just one thing with juvenile one sided critics like you who are often masking resentment with condescension that in truth they are not likely to give up easily…..
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@Ally
Thanks for the compliment . . .. but, I’m Black she.
@resw77
Thanks. I absolutely agree. White supremacy being the byproduct of anti Blackness due to Whiteness being considered its opposite, it creates a default measuring line to which all things are measured against to determine their “goodness,” their worth, their value. The default factor is more subtle than the White supremacy of days gone by, but it has only served to make it harder to identify and dismantle.
@Buddhuu
No problem.
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To Ebonymonroe,
Oops. Sorry, normally I’m fairly careful to find out the sex of a commenter or not to make unfounded assumptions. I fell down badly on that one. Many apologies.
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“White guilt – Anger at racism, not guilt, is what helps. White guilt is what led to racism in the first place. It is what allowed most White Americans to go on thinking of themselves as good Christians while living on Dead Indian Land and Black slave labour, benefiting from inequalities that come down to this day.”
I think it would be a stretch to say that white guilt caused racism in the sense that many black intellectuals use the term, that of white power over blacks, the racism/white supremacy concept of Fuller and Co. White guilt had little to do with the expansion of slavery by Europeans into Africa. What was a major factor was European religious leaders saying that Europeans should not enslave each other any more, their usual practice, pushing them further afield to find slaves. This was a more expensive business and something they had not bothered to do before, rather choosing to enslave their neighbours or fellow countrymen, although Arabs had been doing so for years.
If you use the word racism in the way the majority of people do, to define prejudice based on racial lines, then you may have a point. However, most people are prejudiced to some degree or another. All the matters is when society collectively acts in a racist manner. That was obviously the case in the US until relatively recently and still survives in pockets, such as within the police and the judicial system (which incidentally discriminates against men of all colours in comparison to women in sentencing).
You have, in my eyes at least, yet to prove that the racial prejudice which still exists in the States is a real stumbling block to black success. I would argue that your confirmation bias and philosophy of oppression magnifies what racism there is and how powerful a hindrance it is and also finds it where it isn’t. That leads to a sense of despair and powerlessness which is more dangerous than the racism itself. It is notable that the most successful black people in the States, such as Will Smith or Pharrell Williams, are keen to downplay racism and its pernicious effect on their lives. To you they are naive or ‘rented’. To the Fuller style conspiracy theorists they have been allowed to succeed but only within a racist framework which strengthens racism/white supremacy in subtle, Machiavellian ways.
Radical feminists have a similar belief in the persecution of Western women which is rarely born out by the facts. The major difference between feminists and black anti racists is that women have gained enormous power from feminists pushing their beliefs and black people very little at all since the Civil Rights era, beyond specific corrupt race hucksters feathering their own nest. You could argue that itself was a sign of racism. I would argue it has more to do with the gullibility of men.
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@ Emerson osho
Instead of talking in generalities it would be better if you gave examples. Quote something I said and then write it as I should have written it. Or pick a post and say how I should have approached it.
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@ Ally
Genocide and slavery in Anglo America was first based on religion, but by the late 1600s it was shifting to race instead. Some could and did misread their Bibles to suit their economic interests, but apparently not everyone could. As Montesquieu noted, racism offered a cure for Christian guilt.
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@ George
Your quote appears on that site out of context, so I can see why it got the reaction it did. It turns on what what you think “white” means. If you think it means just having white skin, which is how it seems on that site, then, yes, it is racist. But if white means a white supremacist mindset, then the statement is true by definition.
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To Abagond
“Genocide and slavery in Anglo America was first based on religion, but by the late 1600s it was shifting to race instead. Some could and did misread their Bibles to suit their economic interests, but apparently not everyone could. As Montesquieu noted, racism offered a cure for Christian guilt.”
I would say that chattel slavery was based on economics, just as animal farming is, or any other exploitative industry. You don’t need to hate animals to kill and eat them, merely be indifferent to their fate. The same is true of anyone who exploits humans. People will use all sorts of things to justify what they are doing or to explain it away, either to their own conscience, if they have one, or to those that disapprove.
Disapproval and awakening conscience is the first stage in stopping something cruel and exploitative. Before that there is just indifference. Justifications are the first method of countering an attack on cruelty and exploitation used by those engaging in it or benefiting from it. They are used to shield the perpetrators from moral censure and their own doubts.
Religion has been misused for centuries and it was only relatively recently that Christians saw anything wrong with the institution of slavery in any form. Any creed or ideology can be misused, from conservatism to socialism and from feminism to Christianity. It does not matter how noble the original goal of any movement was, as soon as one person finds a way to manipulate others while still nominally being on the side of the ‘angels’ they will do so and benefit from their borrowed halo.
It actually matters little how Europeans justified the enslavement of Africans or how any group justifies enslaving another. The root of slavery will always be some form of gain, either financial or for prestige, showing off their wealth and power. The excuses to justify it might change over time, be they religion, patriotism/nationalism or crazy racial theories and other bad science. It isn’t what powers the institution, all it might do is divert it from certain paths.
Religion, nationalism and science are not the enemy of slaves, only human greed and the lust for power which will destroy or corrupt anything standing in its way. Those human traits are universal which is why slavery has been universal throughout every continent and in every era and among most races and groups of people.
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@Ally
“It is hardly a secret. ”
Pardon me. I thought you conducted a survey or something data-based. I didn’t know it was just a meaningless opinion.
“Cress Welsing came up with her ‘hue-man’ theory of colour which I would define as the essence”
That has little to do with African cultures or civilisations, so it doesn’t make her “Afrocentric,” according to the dictionary definition.
“though I am sure he [Fuller] thinks of himself as such regardless of what he says to the contrary.”
So now you feign to know his thoughts? Your opinion is hardly fact.
“White racists of old also had plenty of degrees and impressive sounding jobs to use to underpin their racist drivel.”
Surely, but it doesn’t change the fact that Welsing is a practising psychiatrist.
And if you actually read her works, then you’d see that she tries to explain what racism is and why whites have for centuries been racist specifically towards blacks, NOT why people should be racist towards whites. Calling her work “racist” just shows your ignorance and lack of understanding about what racism is.
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Ally said:
“it was only relatively recently that Christians saw anything wrong with the institution of slavery in any form.”
That is not entirely correct. Chrisitanity didn’t have a problem with slavery, but the chattel part was heavily criticized during the Middle Ages, it was frowned upon to sell people (without the land they liven on) and they were not supposed to be sexually abused or arbitrarilly put to death (these three things pretty much define chattel slavery). Then there was a heated debate over the enslavement of non-europeans in the 16th centrury which the pro-slavery people won. Only between the 16th century and the abolitionist moivement chrisitanity had no problem with chattel slavery.
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To resw77
Mr Abagond has deemed the topic of homophobia off topic here so I shall not comment on that or he will threaten to ban me again. All I will say is you don’t need to conduct a survey to be aware of prejudice within a given group. All you need to is listen to what they say and read what they write. The only matter for debate is how widespread the prejudice is within that group.
How you choose to define Afrocentric may differ from how I do. I tend to lump a lot of the more radical pseudo intellectual claptrap written by black self styled anti racists within that category. Fuller and Welsing are certainly not ‘Eurocentric’. If it upsets you so much I will happily call her and Fuller something else. It doesn’t bother me either way, not does it make them any better.
My view of Fuller’s probable idea of his own intellectual self worth is based on my suspicions, as I made clear. I never claimed my opinion is fact. It would be rather odd if Fuller didn’t view himself as some form of intellectual. He is obviously not academic, though I understand he boasts some academic qualifications. They are not reflected in his work. Again it matters little what he calls himself. I still view him as a buffoon.
I have actually read Welsing’s works, which are good for comedy value if nothing else. Her ideas are based on the superiority of melanin and the idea that white people are genetically defective albinos of some sort. To my mind such racial theorising is absolute drivel and reminds me of other racial theorists, white ones, who also came out with similar unpleasant sounding nonsense. It doesn’t make it any better when a black person does it, particularly if we don’t want white people to do it to us. It is also a short step from believing one group to be superior and yet oppressed to wanting to oppress the ‘oppressors’.
Welsing has no power, nor any real credibility, so it is unlikely her influence will ever be widespread beyond the damage she can do to her patients. She may well be a practising psychiatrist. My advice to her, given her age, is to give up practising, she has little discernible talent. Maybe she should take up another hobby, like knitting. She can’t harm anyone much doing that nor make a great fool of herself making scarves or cardigans.
I think I have a pretty good understanding of what racism is, it would be hard not to really. The fact that I find two of your heroes figures of fun is what appears to be upsetting you and not my lack of understanding of the nature of racial prejudice.
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@ Ally,
I have to say your ignorance is truly profound for someone who considers themselves Black. This seemingly blissful contentment for wallowing in the sea of nonsense and dis-information you’ve created and gleefully spew out here exposes a false intellectualism, arrogance and extreme self-loathing on your part.
Just my opinion of course.. 🙂 .But a bit of self reflection would not hurt my friend…This blog is a rich resource for studying many particular different facets of racism. Many of which you have not even begun to touch on given your professed understanding of the subject….
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Ally,
“I would say that chattel slavery was based on economics, just as animal farming is, or any other exploitative industry. You don’t need to hate animals to kill and eat them, merely be indifferent to their fate. The same is true of anyone who exploits humans. People will use all sorts of things to justify what they are doing or to explain it away, either to their own conscience, if they have one, or to those that disapprove.”
If you are hunting an animal you are far from indifferent about its fate. You want it dead.
If you are enslaving people you aren’t indifferent about their fate. You want them enslaved. You come up with religious and scientific reasons as to why slavery is their fate. You deny them their humanity and reduce them to the animals you hunt.
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@Ally
That’s perfectly fine.
You made a statement that you don’t believe there is really much in the way that would pose as a stumbling block for Black success. This is a big statement.
You may wanna research the White job and resources flight after the great migration, the Black soldiers returning to no available work, the huge influx of drugs into AA communities and neighborhood containerization, all within a short period of time. This social and economic marginalization took the AA community from having one of the lowest divorce rates to the highest. So that’s the family structure shattered, there. And remember, though this may seem like a long time ago, we’re talking my grandparents generation, here, so it’s not that long ago when you consider the almost inevitability of cyclical poverty.
Secondly, in contained neighborhoods with less police protection, less facilities, etc, and a massive influx of narcotics, you now have the set up of a destructive economy, but one where it’s the only one to make ends meet.
A Black male with a college degree is less likely to find employment than a White male who has served time. And now, three times as many Black girls as Black men are being put behind bars for being caught as drug carriers.
So you’ve got family and economics, which we can even see in the epidemic of obesity in the AA and Hispanic community from poor nutrition, and then throw on the intangibles such as social stigma and the psychological factors of this antiBlackness to top it all off.
It’s a big question, but this is one that has been floating around now: are there institutional glass ceilings for AA boys and girls that make things far less cut and dry? I suppose it’s a matter of opinion. But living in the UK which is just as much a classist society as one based on race in terms of its hierarchy, We see the exact same things playing out here for White communities in the projects as Black communities, and this pattern of epidemics seems to exist any time a community is marginalized. So, as black and white as things may seem, I think it’s quite possibly easier said than done.
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To Kwamla,
What a large amount of pompous twaddle you do come out with.
Is this just a general attack on me or are you part of the Fuller and Welsing fan club?
You have made a number of vague accusations, some of which (as usual from you band of brave race warriors) are personally offensive. I don’t loathe myself, I leave that to others who run to meet failure and see their own self hatred reflected in the faces of others.
Perhaps you would like to back up your words with an actual argument. Do you have a real point to make with illustrations of the terrible things I said and how and why they are so terrible? Or are you just full of wind? Let’s hear what this disinformation is, let’s see what the nonsense is that I so gleefully and arrogantly spew out which seems to upset your delicate sensibilities.
Perhaps you could also do a bit of self reflection or do you prefer to whine and moan about things rather than actually do anything? It is easy to wallow in the idea of racism, to use it as something to explain all the ills of the world. Some of us don’t buy into that victim status. It would be frankly ridiculous for me to do so given that nothing has held me back and I don’t let the occasional insult paralyse me. I don’t have to pretend racism and prejudice doesn’t exist to achieve what I want in life. However, I don’t have to go looking for it or find it lurking behind every bush ready to leap out and strike me down.
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@Ally
“All you need to is listen to what they say and read what they write.”
So I take it you have listened to and read many works from many “Afrocentric” writers. Any specifics to help prove your point?
“How you choose to define Afrocentric may differ from how I do.”
I use the dictionary definition, and how you have chosen to define it doesn’t fit the bill.
“Fuller and Welsing are certainly not ‘Eurocentric’. ”
Who said they were? But talking about racism is not being “Afrocentric.” Your type uses that term for any black person who presents viewpoints about race that make you feel uncomfortable.
“Her ideas are based on the superiority of melanin and the idea that white people are genetically defective albinos of some sort.”
In which work did Welsing say people with melanin were superior or whites were “defective”? You may not like it, but melanin does exist, and Welsing discusses it in her theory why pale people have subconsciously been racist towards dark people. You don’t have to agree with her, but she is well qualified to speak on this subject or anything of behavioural science.
“I understand he boasts some academic qualifications”
Then I’m sure you should be able to point out a specific example of that.
In fact, this is what his book says: “I, Neely Fuller, Jr., the writer/author of this book, like millions of others, have been a long-time Victim of and Servant to Racism (White Supremacy) in all areas of activity. My experiences, observations, and/or studies have led me to believe the following…” That doesn’t sound like boasting academic qualifications to me.
“The fact that I find two of your heroes figures of fun is what appears to be upsetting you ”
They’re not my heroes, and I’m not upset. I’m just correcting some blatantly inaccurate statements you’ve made.
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To Solesearch
“If you are hunting an animal you are far from indifferent about its fate. You want it dead.
If you are enslaving people you aren’t indifferent about their fate. You want them enslaved. You come up with religious and scientific reasons as to why slavery is their fate. You deny them their humanity and reduce them to the animals you hunt.”
With respect, I think you are splitting hairs. All you need is a lack of empathy for an animal’s fear, suffering and pain to go hunting. Obviously the aim is to kill your prey. All that is required to kill without hurting yourself emotionally is not to enter into the feelings of those you want dead.
Obviously the slave traders wanted to enslave their slaves (sounds like a tongue twister) for a reason, to make money. The lack of empathy which allowed them to do so is similar to a hunter’s. It is only when a large number of people questioned the legitimacy and morality of slavery that slavers needed to find some form of justification for what they were doing. In such circumstances they might very well turn to religion or pseudo science to furnish them with a ready excuse.
However, excuses can precede an act itself if someone is about to do something they know people disapprove of and may fight against. For instance, the American government regularly lies, hides and distorts its foreign policy actions and justifies itself by ‘humanitarian intervention’, ‘spreading democracy’,’the war on drugs’, ‘the war on terror’ etc. as the policy makers know that naked imperial aggression (which such high sounding phrases are there to disguise) would not be popular among the general population. So it doesn’t actually matter if the justifications are contemporary with the actions or introduced later to perpetuate those actions.
In my view the real impetus for the slave trade was still an economic one, not a religious or pseudo scientific one.
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To resw77
My ‘type’ wants to expose drivel. Welsing and Fuller are both guilty of writing drivel and are buffoons.
I understood that Fuller calls himself ‘Dr’, or at least he is credited as such on a number of sites, including Sons of Malcolm. If that is incorrect and he has never credited himself with a Phd then he can accept my sincere apologies for misrepresenting him based on second hand information. I still think him a buffoon though.
You are getting rather bogged down with the whole Afrocentric term. I said before I had not intended it as a sweeping dismissal of all Afrocentric thought. However, to my mind too much of what does call itself Afrocentric is little more than a collection of ridiculous nonsense posing as credible research. I have a similar view of feminism. Not everything feminists write is nonsense, but a huge amount is as stupid as anything Welsing or Fuller write. If you disagree good on you. I am bored of it now. I hereby renounce my former words and happily concede that neither Welsing and Fuller are Afrocentric nor any other ‘centric’. I still think they are both buffoons though.
Welsing believes that white people are albinos. Albinism is a form of genetic defect. Ergo she believes that whites are genetically defective. She may not phrase it in quite that way but that is what it amounts to. You seem to attach enormous importance to her qualifications. No qualification I know of is proof against making a fool of yourself and spouting God awful theories which would be laughed to scorn if they were more generally known. it is only her relative obscurity which saves her from widespread derision. The same goes for Fuller. They are both buffoons.
They are also bigots as well.
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To Ebonymonroe,
Yes, it is a big statement and it runs counter to almost everything Mr Abagond writes and most of the commenters add to his posts, other than a small group whites who stray on here, either as trolls or those who, like me, have a radically different point of view to the one generally credited as ‘correct’. I notice there are one or two blacks here who are vaguely sceptical, few who are as aggressively so as me (that I have seen so far).
I am not on here for simple fun. I have a sincere belief, which may indeed be sincerely wrong, that racism is not the real cause of black problems in the States or the UK. I also believe that those, like Mr Abagond (whom I credit with a sincere desire to help black people fight what he believes to be holding them back), are actually hindering and not helping. I think they are guilty of magnifying racism and its effects and go looking for it where it probably doesn’t exist. I think such thought also spreads a sense of hopelessness and persecution which can have a psychologically limiting effect.
I get a fair about of abuse for holding such views (certainly not from you) but I won’t let that stop me and I can, as you probably gather, give as good as I get if necessary. Unfortunately every time I write what I believe to be the truth it tends to stir up a hornet’s nest of anger and resentment and a desire to dismiss me as an arrogant, self hating, ignorant fool. When they thought I was white I was simply a ‘white racist’ and easier to discount altogether. Accusations of bestiality were a step too far however.
The issues you raise are certainly real and it would take too long to analyse each one adequately here and would stray a long way from the real topic of the original post. All I will say is that I believe that the issues have a far greater level of complexity than simple racism at their heart, even if racism does play a part. You mention class and I believe that to be a far more fundamental cause of these problems, particularly as we have in Britain the white underclass, the ‘chavs’ which, although less extreme in gang violence, share many of the same problems as blacks in the US. The recent riots in the UK were notable for their racial mix, if not their class mix.
Certain cultures succeed and others do not. What is often perceived as black culture is not necessarily healthy and by that i don’t mean jazz, Motown and James Baldwin. I don’t even mean rap, although much of it reflects the poor culture. I believe poor decisions and low expectations are the root cause of black failure. I may share that view with white conservatives as well as a few black ones like Thomas Sowell; it doesn’t make it any less true for that even it it is not a fashionable philosophy to hold here.
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@Ally
I completely respect your point of view.
I personally do have less extreme view points on some points than a few other commenters here, however, I do not personally view many of these aspects as class issues, particularly in the States.
There has long been a White working class in the US, with a growing crystal meth epidemic, but still, over 90% of inmates resulting from the war on drugs have been Black. There’s a commenter on here named Michael Jon Barker who posted an interesting on laws that were put into place to prohibit business loans and mortgages to AAs, as well as a wealth of threads and posts that have explored how very straight forward the construction of many of these glass ceilings were that this generation of AAs are just recovering from. We’re talking an economic state that was in place during my grandparents’ time, these kinds of barriers aren’t things entire communities recover from overnight.
As far as rap music, over 70% of rap music consumers are White suburban males. Statistically, Black men have not been the purchaser for over a decade. MTV, BET, major record labels, media, none of these industry titans are owned by Black people. Instead a certain kind of Blackness that caters to the entertainment of White audiences is what Hip hop has become. Is it a coincidence or class issue that White consumers tend to subscribe to a very particular form of Blackness? Even Oprah confessed that her numbers would drop whenever she lost weight.
While I too am conservative in many of my political and social views, I’m unable to round up the systematic breakdown of the Black community as being a matter of the choices Black people, or a coincidence or class. Some of which (domestic, employment, education, judicial, media) I have touched on in both this and my last post to you.
I believe everyone is entitled to their own world-view. Of course everyone is responsible for their personal choices, but you may have to also understand when many people do not view these things as coincidences. I should hope people who frequent this site are not consumed with race and paralysed from being productive well rounded people in their everyday lives, but I believe the majority of people frequent the site to explore an AA history and a history of POC they were never taught. And to critically engage with information proselytized about POC that is often completely untrue. There’s been a great deal of looking closely at what conservatives like Bill O Reilly and Don Lemon have perpetuated with their platforms on Abagond of late, and it’s usually not true, or extremely distorted. The mere fact that there’s still a huge space to demonize an entire race of people with untruths in proof that there’s still a problem. Trayvon gets killed, Don Lemon essentially professes if you don’t want to die, don’t sag your pants.
Respectfully, in the same way you believe the perpetuation of US Black crime myths, the out-of-wedlock myths, the lack of college myths, the marriage myths, the economic and judicial and domestic systematic disadvantages, are all coincidence, or just about class, and people will have to respect your views. In the same way, you’ll have to respect Abagond and others like myself who don’t see it as coincidence at all.
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“Propranolol is used in the treatment of anxiety; performance anxiety; …”
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@Ally
“Welsing and Fuller are both guilty of writing drivel and are buffoons.”
That is your opinion, to which you are entitled, but both Welsing and Fuller are entitled to their opinions as well. At least, Welsing and Fuller back theirs with facts. You don’t.
“I understood that Fuller calls himself ‘Dr’, or at least he is credited as such on a number of sites, including Sons of Malcolm. ”
Come again when you have a specific reference where Fuller actually refers to himself as ‘Dr.’ A blog written by some random person no one knows is not evidence of Fuller “boasting academic qualifications.”
“You are getting rather bogged down with the whole Afrocentric term. ”
No, that would be you. I only said Welsing and Fuller are not “Afrocentric” according to the dictionary definition, and that discussing racism is not being “Afrocentric.” Again, if you have any evidence that they are “Afrocentric” then please present it.
“Welsing believes that white people are albinos. Albinism is a form of genetic defect. Ergo she believes that whites are genetically defective. ”
“Defective” is your word, and found elsewhere in medical definitions, but I asked you to tell us where Welsing used that word, and you did not. According to NIH, “Albinism is a defect of melanin production that results in little or no color (pigment) in the skin, hair, and eyes.” Now, blue eyes, blonde hair and pale skin seem to fit that bill to me.
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@ Ally and Ebonymonroe
On the class vs race issue. You have to keep in mind that that is a difficult distinction to make. In the US anything that has to do with class also has to do with race (perhaps less so in Britain), because of past racism. My belief is that even if the US actually became over night a post-racial society the lot of blacks wouldn’t improve much. But that doesn’t mean that it has nothing to do with racism. Past racism placed a big proportion of blacks in the underclass, so even without racism, classism will preserve the “achievements” of racism.
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To resw77
I am not the one continually talking about whether they are Afrocentric, that is you, over and over and over again. Let it go. The precise definition of Afrocentric, assuming there is one, really doesn’t interest me and it doesn’t matter if these two clowns are Afrocentric or not, they are still talking tripe and are a pair of bigots. What name you give their tripe and bigotry is unimportant.
Backing things up with facts is what neither of them do, particularly Fuller. His code books have no citations whatsoever. They are just things he thinks are the case, a grand conspiracy theory he has invented with nothing to back it up of any academic weight. Welsing just uses bad science.
I really don’t care if Fuller is a real Phd or a pretend one, or whether he claims to be a Phd or not. I don’t care if he thinks of himself as an intellectual or not, or whether he claims he is one or not. None if that makes any difference to the quality, or lack of it, of his work. Welsing obviously does claim academic qualifications and she is just as big an idiot as he is. You are clutching at straws here. None of this makes any difference to the bunkum the pair of them come out with.
Albinism is almost universally seen as a genetic defect. If Welsing doesn’t use the word ‘defective’ to describe whites she is merely being disingenuous. Logic tells us that if you say that an entire race of people are albinos you are saying that an entire race suffers from a genetic defect, whether you spell that out or not. Soft peddling her racism by not actually calling a spade a spade fools no-one but you and others like you.
I would suggest you look at a few more credible scientific sources before you compare the average white person to an albino. There is no link between the two, other than the fact that white people can have albino children, just as black people can. Welsing’s theories are just piffle and twaddle and you are too ignorant to know it. Stop reading garbage like Welsing and you might view the world as the rest of humanity does, not like some crazy old bat or her equally crazy chum, that old fool and bigot Fuller.
You don’t fight racism by being racist yourself. You don’t fight bigotry with more bigotry. If I believe something to be genuinely racist (and my tolerance is far higher than many here) I will say so. Whether that racist is black, white or all the colours of the rainbow makes no difference to me.
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I have to say your ignorance is truly profound for someone who considers themselves Black.
Kapow! In the white corner Ally, in the black corner Kwamla. Kwamla wins by a knockout in the first round!
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how come i get 50 comments in and forget the topic?
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Stop drinking and typing.
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Herneith,
You are absolute poison. Your foul mind pollutes every thread you sully with your presence.
Why don’t you go and accuse someone of bestiality or go on one of your xenophobic rants?
In any battle there is no doubt which corner you would be in, the stupid one.
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Ally,
It’s is not splitting hairs when one meaning is meant to downplay the magnitude of the feeling. You are whitewashing the hatred it takes for a human to disregard the humanity of another. It is a hateful act. It is not indifference. White people were not indifferent about the place of black people in American society. I agree it was initially just about economics and not religion or science. I don’t think anyone here is stating otherwise.
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@Ally
“I really don’t care if Fuller is a real Phd or a pretend one, or whether he claims to be a Phd or not.”
You obviously do, since you accused him several times of pretending to be an academic. Yet when I asked you to point out one instance where he did, and now you “really don’t care.” What a joke this has become.
“I am not the one continually talking about whether they are Afrocentric”
Yet you were the first one to use the term, the most frequent user and the last one to use that word. And when I asked you to back up your claim, you couldn’t…unsurprisingly.
“Logic tells us that if you say that an entire race of people are albinos you are saying that an entire race suffers from a genetic defect”
Albinism is a function of melanin production whether you like it or not. It comes in varying degrees, and being an “albino,” by the medical definition, is not the same as having a form of albinism.
“I would suggest you look at a few more credible scientific sources before you compare the average white person to an albino.”
We understand your disdain for Welsing…you’ve made it very clear. But, I’ve never once used her as a source for anything, and you know it. You brought up Welsing and made inaccurate claims, which I corrected. That’s it.
“You don’t fight racism by being racist yourself. ”
The problem with your type is that you think calling out or analysing whites’ racist behaviour towards blacks is being racist. It’s not racist to call a spade a spade, especially when it can be proven by statistics.
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To Solasearch,
I am not whitewashing anything and I do not pretend that enslaving people was anything but hateful.
Mr Abagond seemed to be suggesting in a comment he addressed to me that chattel slavery was motivated by religion and then by racism. I don’t believe that anything other than economics fuelled slavery which is why I made that point. Possibly I misinterpreted what he wrote.
I have observed that people are able to do terrible things to one group and be pleasant to another and suffer no cognitive dissonance. I cannot confess to understanding it. I don’t believe vivisectionists hate the animals they torture and kill. Many probably have pets they are kind to. People are able to behave in the most inhumane way, or perhaps we should rather say in the most human way, without it troubling their soul. They are also adept at finding ready reasons for doing what they do and passing themselves off as moral while behaving immorally.
I really do not believe that hatred was a factor at all in fuelling slavery, even though individual slavers may have hated their slaves. Slavery was not a holocaust in the sense that the Nazi Holocaust was, in which economics was hardly a factor at all and hatred and the wish to destroy was the prime motivation.
Hatred may have crept in more and more in the South as the country rumbled slowly and inexorably to emancipation. It was not necessary to continue the practice. All that was needed was not to empathise with slaves.
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To resw77,
Oh God you are dull. We go round and round and get nowhere.
I shouldn’t rise to the bait but here goes.
I brought up Fuller’s supposed qualifications because I saw him quoted as ‘Dr’ Neely Fuller Jnr on several occasions and wondered what he was a doctor of given that his works are so lacking in academic method. I have already said that if this a mistake on my part I am happy to admit as much. What more do you want from me?
I still don’t care whether the whole world calls itself Afrocentric or not. You just won’t let this go.
For the record, I am not the first to call Welsing Afrocentric. Norm R. Allen Jr., for instance, wrote an article called “Bringing Some Sanity and Humanity to Afrocentricity (a.k.a. Afrocentrism)” in which he discussed Welsing’s melanin theories under the umbrella of Afrocentric thought and dismissed them unceremoniously.
My ‘type’ has little patience with racism, prejudice, bigotry, stupidity and pseudo science wherever I find it. I have found all of them with Welsing. You have corrected nothing, you have merely attempted to defend her very unscientific ideas about whites and albinism.
You are making a fool of yourself over albinism. There is only albinism as a medical phenomena; there is no other form of albinism, other than in Welsing’s warped mind. White people are not genetically deficient or defective, they are just pale skinned from living in a cold Northern climate over many thousands of years.
And what statistics do you have to prove anything?
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@Ally
“I brought up Fuller’s supposed qualifications because I saw him quoted as ‘Dr’ Neely Fuller Jnr”
You said Fuller “boasts some academic qualifications” but cannot prove it. End of discussion.
“You just won’t let this go.”
Yet you are the only one who keeps using that word, and wrote another paragraph to elaborate on it. I’m unfamiliar with Norm R. Allen Jr. and don’t see how he’s relevant to your claim.
“My ‘type’ has little patience with racism, prejudice, bigotry, stupidity and pseudo science wherever I find it.”
Then perhaps you should spend more time attacking racism, and less time attacking people who analyse racism.
“you have merely attempted to defend her very unscientific ideas about whites and albinism”
I corrected your inaccurate claims about Welsing’s qualifications and theses. I never defended any of her theses.
“You are making a fool of yourself over albinism.”
Not at all. What I did was quote verbatim the NIH’s definition of “albinism.” It’s not my problem if you don’t like it.
“they are just pale skinned from living in a cold Northern climate over many thousands of years.”
That’s making a fool of oneself. That archaic theory has long been disproved because skin colour, again, is a function of melanin production not a “cold Northern climate.”
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OFF TOPIC: Neely Fuller and Cress Welsing unless they can be tied directly to the topic of the post.
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@ Ally
Religion was not the motive for African slavery but an excuse: Africans were non-Christians, so it was no big deal. But that apparently led to Christian guilt in enough people that racism became the main excuse instead. Many churches, however, continued to excuse slavery: the Curse of Ham and all that.
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Ally,
“I cannot confess to understanding it. I don’t believe vivisectionists hate the animals they torture and kill. Many probably have pets they are kind to.”
This is what I see as whitewashing:
1. Your comparison of human beings and animals is troubling. Treating animals like animals is not hateful, you can rightfully characterize that as indifference.But to treat a fellow human being as an animal is a hateful act. It is not indifference. It is hateful and pathological to have a lack of empathy for human beings.
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To Solasearch,
The comparison is troubling to you because you practice speciesism, which doesn’t register with you as problematic. You are essentially doing what apologists for slavery did to the enslaved but doing it to animals instead. Whether you agree with my views on animals or not it is the same basic premise. We are all animals, you choose to privilege some and excuse the exploitation of others.
I have no wish (especially after the tortuous resw77 run in) to enter into a long debate about animal rights which isn’t really all that relevant to the original post. All I will say is what you see as whitewashing of one issue I see as whitewashing of another. What we have is competing moralities, although I also condemn slavery (though not necessarily in the way you want me to) and you do not appear to condemn vivisection.
I go to a point I made earlier. People tend to get most worked up and morally indignant about those things that affect them and people like them and less so about everyone else. Self interest is generally a more powerful motivator than altruism.
I think we are unlikely to agree on this point.
To Abagond,
OK, that makes more sense, I guess I did misinterpret your words.
One would also have to point out that slavery troubled enough Christians, white as well as black, to fuel the drive to end it. Quakers and Evangelicals in particular have to be credited with a tireless fight against slavery in England.
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To Kiwi,
“I cannot confess to understanding it. I don’t believe white racists hate the people they torture and kill. Many probably have nonwhite wives/children they are kind to.”
Yes, that works equally as well. The principle is the same. You don’t have to hate whom you exploit to exploit them and you can divide up who you treat kindly or not based on fairly arbitrary and even irrational groupings.
Humans have a remarkable capacity for both empathy and a total lack of it. My thesis is that it is only when people are troubled by their conscience and still act in a manner contrary to it that cognitive dissonance kicks in and hatred, resentment and deliberate, calculated cruelty begin. Before then it is the cruelty of indifference.
People have not really needed to think of other humans as less than human to ill treat and exploit them. Racism in that sense is relatively recent. Exploitation is as old as mankind itself.
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@Kartoffel
I think the US’s hierarchy is more based on race than Britain, although I do agree that class would be the new problem for many AAs if we woke up and were in post-racial-America-era because of economic marginalization. In saying that, however, given the minority demographic numbers, there are more working class White Americans than Blacks; for a quick example as to why I believe race trumps class in the US: crystal meth is an epidemic that has plagued working class White American communities, its distribution is mostly due to a lack of job opportunities for these communities. The US has gone to war against Meth, bypassing the issue of economic opportunity and the public health crisis angle, in favour of setting laws that reflect the “tough on crime we’re mad at you/we hate you stance” as opposed to correcting the underlying problems, much like the extreme sentencing laws for crack in AA neighbourhoods where the laws were made heavy for crack dealers and users, which was associated with the AA and Hispanic community, while passing extremely lenient laws for cocaine offences which was the same drug, and just as much an epidemic of violence. The only difference is that it was associated with White middle class Americans.
Despite there being the same aggression towards these two epidemics in two poor classes of people (AA > crack, WA >crystal meth), still, well over 90% of innmates as a result of the war on drugs, aren’t White, aren’t Hispanic, but Black.
It’s examples like this that leads me to believe race is more the measuring tool in the US. Whereas the UK’s social hierarchy, particularly in major cities, has a class system that is almost on par with race. Even government housing is very multicultural and multiracial over here. The same is not true for the US.
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“The comparison is troubling to you because you practice speciesism, which doesn’t register with you as problematic. You are essentially doing what apologists for slavery did to the enslaved but doing it to animals instead. Whether you agree with my views on animals or not it is the same basic premise. We are all animals, you choose to privilege some and excuse the exploitation of others.”
Are you serious? Are you trolling or just grasping for straws?
Vivisection? I thought the metaphor was hunting. A better one would be domestication…but this is your attempt at slavery apologia. You don’t even know what your premise is.
Are the animals I’m discriminating against also speciesist? Or do you hold them to a lesser standard of conduct than humans?
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To Solasearch,
What on earth makes you think I am apologising for slavery? What possible grounds have you for such a ridiculous statement? You seem so bogged down in your own beliefs that you do not try to understand the precise nature of what someone else is saying and get indignant for little reason.
What I am actually doing is proposing an idea of how human morality, amorality and immorality function in general. You seem to feel a great need for white people to have passionately hated the black people they enslaved. Fine, that is a point of view. It is not one I share. I agree that hatred would have been a factor with some slavers but I don’t think it fundamental to the institution, regardless of who is enslaving whom. I don’t think you need to hate to exploit, merely to shut off empathy. How that is an apologia for slavery is quite frankly beyond all comprehension.
It matters little whether you use hunting, vivisection or animal farming as an analogy. I have used all three. They are all to do with exploitation and cruelty. They are all analogous to human slavery. Domestication is a vague term. It can mean family pets or farm animals.
I do hold animals to a different standard of conduct because they are not able to control their behaviour as humans can and do not have advanced concepts of morality as humans do. I would have thought that obvious.
The only one actually making an apology for anything is you, for the exploitation of animals. I hold all forms of slavery to be vile and cruel.
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I don’t know most of these people you speak of. I can speak of two of these – the rest, I just don’t know people well enough to attach to. I don’t know any white people with guilt – atleast not the guilt you attach to them. Not seeing color? IDK… is it a bad thing to not see color? I suppose in certain financial demographics it could lead to a demorilazation. I believe although that most “white” people do not fit that demographic and those that desire to must not be that prevalant. Overall I think you must be stereotyping white people. Is that your intention? Some kind of introverted self analysis you are throwing at white folk? I know lots of whites and I love your blog – I guess I love controversy – most of what I’ve read does not reflect to attitudes of the whites that I know. Maybe I do not enjoy the company of the demographic your words identify, and cannot see that.
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Not seeing color again…. I think I see – that there is nothing wrong with being white or chinese or mexican, it’s not like we have a choice, and not seeing color [ ] (my vocabulary can’t fill in that space), but some thing like not seeing color is condesending in nature. As in people should see color and be glad of who they are?
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@ deuce
I did not conduct a survey, so I have no idea how common any given one is. All I know is that most of them keep coming up and therefore are worth addressing.
Not seeing colour is racist. It says you have trouble accepting people as they are because of their race. It is better than beating them up or looking down on them because of their colour, but it is still a form of non-acceptance based on race – and thus racist.
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