Billy Brooks, a community activist in Chicago whom Coates interviewed for his article. (Carlos Javier Ortiz)
“The Case for Reparations” (2014) by Ta-Nehisi Coates is an article that appeared in the Atlantic magazine. He argues that reparations for Blacks in the US is not merely a matter of doing right by Blacks, but something the country as a whole needs:
The recovering alcoholic may well have to live with his illness for the rest of his life. But at least he is not living a drunken lie. Reparations beckons us to reject the intoxication of hubris and see America as it is – the work of fallible humans. …
More important than any single check cut to any African American, the payment of reparations would represent America’s maturation out of the childhood myth of its innocence into a wisdom worthy of its founders.
It is not just reparations for slavery:
Having been enslaved for 250 years, black people were not left to their own devices. They were terrorized. In the Deep South, a second slavery ruled. In the North, legislatures, mayors, civic associations, banks, and citizens all colluded to pin black people into ghettos, where they were overcrowded, overcharged, and undereducated. Businesses discriminated against them, awarding them the worst jobs and the worst wages. Police brutalized them in the streets. And the notion that black lives, black bodies, and black wealth were rightful targets remained deeply rooted in the broader society. Now we have half-stepped away from our long centuries of despoilment, promising, “Never again.” But still we are haunted. It is as though we have run up a credit-card bill and, having pledged to charge no more, remain befuddled that the balance does not disappear. The effects of that balance, interest accruing daily, are all around us.
After the Second World War the US government pumped billions into creating a White middle-class through the G.I. Bill and FHA loans – White, yes White, because that is how Southern senators wanted it.
Meanwhile White flight was not “natural” – it was socially engineered for profit by bankers and real estate agents through redlining, blockbusting and racial steering.
Indeed, in America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.
A postcard dated August 3, 1920, depicts the aftermath of a lynching in Center, Texas, near the Louisiana border. According to the text on the other side, the victim was a 16-year-old boy.
Some blame the ills of Blacks not on hundreds of years of racist policies but on black pathologies. Coates:
The laments about “black pathology,” the criticism of black family structures by pundits and intellectuals, ring hollow in a country whose existence was predicated on the torture of black fathers, on the rape of black mothers, on the sale of black children. An honest assessment of America’s relationship to the black family reveals the country to be not its nurturer but its destroyer.
Coates favours the passage of HR 40, the Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African Americans Act.
That HR 40 has never – under either Democrats or Republicans – made it to the House floor suggests our concerns are rooted not in the impracticality of reparations but in something more existential.
See also:
- Ta-Nehisi Coates, “The Case for Reparations” (2014) – filled with far more particulars and human interest stories than this post can possibly contain.
- Ta-Nehisi Coates
- black pathology
- white flight
- The Third Enlargement of American Whiteness – G.I. Bill and FHA loans
excerpt from the Coates piece:
“In 1961, Ross and his wife bought a house in North Lawndale, a bustling community on Chicago’s West Side. North Lawndale had long been a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, but a handful of middle-class African Americans had lived there starting in the ’40s. The community was anchored by the sprawling Sears, Roebuck headquarters. North Lawndale’s Jewish People’s Institute actively encouraged blacks to move into the neighborhood, seeking to make it a “pilot community for interracial living.” In the battle for integration then being fought around the country, North Lawndale seemed to offer promising terrain.
But out in the tall grass, highwaymen, nefarious as any Clarksdale kleptocrat, were lying in wait.
Three months after Clyde Ross moved into his house, the boiler blew out. This would normally be a homeowner’s responsibility, but in fact, Ross was not really a homeowner. His payments were made to the seller, not the bank. And Ross had not signed a normal mortgage. He’d bought “on contract”: a predatory agreement that combined all the responsibilities of homeownership with all the disadvantages of renting—while offering the benefits of neither. Ross had bought his house for $27,500. The seller, not the previous homeowner but a new kind of middleman, had bought it for only $12,000 six months before selling it to Ross. In a contract sale, the seller kept the deed until the contract was paid in full—and, unlike with a normal mortgage, Ross would acquire no equity in the meantime. If he missed a single payment, he would immediately forfeit his $1,000 down payment, all his monthly payments, and the property itself. The men who peddled contracts in North Lawndale would sell homes at inflated prices and then evict families who could not pay—taking their down payment and their monthly installments as profit. Then they’d bring in another black family, rinse, and repeat. “He loads them up with payments they can’t meet,” an office secretary told The Chicago Daily News of her boss, the speculator Lou Fushanis, in 1963. “Then he takes the property away from them. He’s sold some of the buildings three or four times.”
Ross had tried to get a legitimate mortgage in another neighborhood, but was told by a loan officer that there was no financing available. The truth was that there was no financing for people like Clyde Ross.
From the 1930s through the 1960s, black people across the country were largely cut out of the legitimate home-mortgage market through means both legal and extralegal.
Chicago whites employed every measure, from “restrictive covenants” to bombings, to keep their neighborhoods segregated.
Their efforts were buttressed by the federal government.
In 1934, Congress created the Federal Housing Administration. The FHA insured private mortgages, causing a drop in interest rates and a decline in the size of the down payment required to buy a house. But an insured mortgage was not a possibility for Clyde Ross.
The FHA had adopted a system of maps that rated neighborhoods according to their perceived stability. On the maps, green areas, rated “A,” indicated “in demand” neighborhoods that, as one appraiser put it, lacked “a single foreigner or Negro.” These neighborhoods were considered excellent prospects for insurance. Neighborhoods where black people lived were rated “D” and were usually considered ineligible for FHA backing. They were colored in red. ”
**********
Today, white foreigners (immigrants) are accorded more freedoms, rights and benefits than black people who were born here in the USA. So much for citizenship…
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my opinion is that the barbaric controls, both psychological and physical, used to control the african slaves in the us has been just refined upon and advanced, in the name of politics, preservation of the elite, ‘criminal justice’, and the way of the white picket fence.
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The subtext of the preceding post suggests blacks looking for homes in the North Lawndale neighborhood performed NO due diligence on pricing, recent sales or sources of funds before walking naively into bad deals.
So maybe the first few buyers are victimized. But how long does it take for black buyers to realize that a house for sale at double the local market price isn’t a deal a white buyer would accept?
It’s one thing to get nicked for an extra 10 or 15 percent, especially in a hot real estate market. But to pay a price more than 100 percent over local market prices? Well, that’s P.T Barnum territory.
For whatever it’s worth, my family moved to a town 40 miles northwest of Chicago in 1958. My father paid about $25,000 for a three bedroom ranch.
Therefore, the figure that Clyde Ross paid — $27,500 — in 1961 doesn’t seem as outrageous as Coates wants readers to believe.
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sb32199,
“For whatever it’s worth”…. not much. Stop making up “just so” stories and go read the article rather than trying to offer dubious “subtext”.
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George Ryder,
I understand your sentiment but I’m sorry that’s clearly not true. We may be all rabble to the ruling class but inequality is hardly applied equally. Some suffer much more than others.
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“it’s inequality for all out here, doesn’t matter what color you are to the ruling class.”
***********
Nice eye-wear you got there, George! Almost wish I had a pair.
Sounds like you’re saying (or seeing) that white PRIVILEGE no longer exists.
Mr. Ryder, how can you be so clueless? Oh!! Never mind. My bad!! smh
Talk about the devil in sheep’s clothing… sheesh..
George, why is the ruling class invested in keeping the two groups apart and separate?
Answer: To keep whites pitted against blacks and others instead of joining forces with one another to fight against the common oppressor.. whose taking everyone to the cleaners!
How do they maintain this condition?
Answer: By placing the “house” Negroes against the “field” Negroes. We are all Negroes – according to the ruling elite… and they’re still playing the same plays out of the 500 year old playbook! … and winning.
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@sb you really dont get it
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@George Ryder,
No, you’re not curious. You’re just playing a variation of the “everybody does it” game or, in your case, “everybody suffers” game.
Your question of cutting checks is a red herring. As Coates made clear in the article, the issue has never even been seriously examined so the notion of cutting checks is putting the cart way in front of the horse. In fact, he goes on to suggest that since the crime was so large, broad and all encompassing that it might not be possible to accurately measure it and pay anybody in financial terms.
Much like the real estate crooks who hustled white familes into selling low and white flight by hiring black people black women to push strollers in their neighborhoods and blacks in general to call houses and ask for people with “black sounding” names, the cutting checks stuff is a scare tactic designed to anger and inflame whites.
It’s a particularly obnoxious one considering how white society at large benefitted from the many checks cut on the backs of black people.
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The case against reparations is that it would be taking most of the money from people who had nothing to do with slavery or segregatiom.
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“@sb you really dont get it”
*******
He ain’t the only one. I suspect that those that don’t get it, don’t get it because they don’t want to get it!
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That’s a dumb argument as it tries to ignore the gigantic elephant in the room. Namely, the goverment policies, massive social progams and private business practices that explictly advantaged whites and disadvantaged blacks. Trying to pretend that it’s simply a question of personal blame and repair is, again, another scare tactic designed to anger and inflame whites.
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@George Ryder,
Silly stuff. You can either go read the article which you clearly haven’t or continue to play games. The amusing thing is Coates gave you a perfect example of someone (Clyde Ross), and people, who were directly impacted and should be paid but, you’d rather play of white fears.
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One of the four frames of colour-blind racism is abstract liberalism:
In my experience the same applies to the way Whites talk about reparations.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/10/31/colour-blind-racism-the-four-frames/
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We should all pay for the sins of our ancestors, no matter how far back these go. It is fair to make the hispanic majority of the future pay for past mistreatment of blacks by whites. The way we do it is we just cut the checks now (like a pay-day loan). Of course, future generations will be able to pay it back. No chance that the country could go bankrupt. We’re such a rich country. Or maybe we can just confiscate it all from the 1% now and it’s no problem.
Of course white flight is not natural, and now the liberal white elites need to put their money where their mouths are and move themselves to predominently black neighborhoods and make sure their white kids are enrolled at predominently black schools. This will start the healing and reconcilliation process. No more excuses!
Actually, if massive reparations could be passed, they would be passed by a narrow Dem majority in congress, against the will of the vast majority of non-blacks in the country. That would cause widespread outrage and be a great wake-up call and could trigger the “reset” many are expecting and even hoping for. The sooner the better, I think.
Unfortunately, I don’t see much chance that these kind of reparations will pass, but the periodic articles on the subject should be enough to make white people feel continued guilt for the sins of our fathers (even if our direct ancestors were not involved with slavery, jim crow or housing rip offs and actively fought against these things) and not object to affirmative action and government handouts. Guilty people don’t worry about the disproportionate number of crimes and murders committed by blacks. After all, this is really just payback (just like reparations), and if blacks are bad actors now it can be all blamed on whites actually.
Blacks don’t have moral agency to be accountable for their present state or any past actions (only whites have this apparently). Hence, there would be no reason to seek reparations from the blacks in West Africa whose ancestors sold the ancestors of African Americans into slavery.
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@ George
As the end of the post indicates, the article was not about HOW reparations would be carried out. That has to be studied – thus HR 40. Anything that someone whips up on a comment thread is going to be full of holes like Swiss cheese.
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Oh yeah, stay tuned for Randy’s Mist o’ Time argument.
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The case against reparations is that it would be taking most of the money from people who had nothing to do with slavery or segregatiom.
Do Federal tax dollars go towards the construction and maintenance of roads and other infrastructure which will never be directly utilized by many citizens of the U.S.? Do Federal tax dollars go towards the payment of pensions for soldiers of WWII? Of the Korean War? Of the Vietnam War, etc? Wars which any number of U.S. citizens could say, “had nothing to do with them.”
Ks is correct that the argument in italics is dumb.
Note: I am not even in favour of reparations, as Abagond well knows.
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Oh yeah, stay tuned for Randy’s Mist o’ Time argument.
Ab workout unnecessary for today. Reason: LMAO!
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Ks said: You can either go read the article which you clearly haven’t or continue to play games.
Glad you said it. Alot of people (on this blog and elsewhere) will not read the article but will talk on it endlessly. (I have to admit, my eyes glaze at the mention of “reparations”.)
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/05/22/314881767/how-to-tell-if-someones-actually-read-ta-nehisi-coates-essay
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The level of denial, or ignorance in biff’s case above, is astounding but unfortunately not surprising. Even when the facts are put in their faces they run from it like vampires avoiding sunlight.
Think about what “Redlining” actually meant. US Government housing policy was the key driver that helped to create what we now call the “Middle Class”. It explicitly excluded black people and documented! that exclusion in red ink. Blacks were shut out of one of the biggest wealth transfers and engines of mass wealth creation in, arguably, human history (certainly US history). But I guess it’s easier for some to whine about who or what might, maybe, possibly, pay something or other at some possible point in the future.
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Id definitly be in favor of some kind of way to enact reparations…especialy geared at making schools and institutions reflect it…schools in any poor neighborhood should be as good as schools anywhere else…
If it was done in a way , like a luxury tax , or , something that really wouldnt bite into the average persons pocket, it would be welcome
there is so much waste in government anyway, surly it could be figured out
just legalise marijuana and a few pennies tax would eaisly start the flow
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@George Ryder,
Uh huh, just because the general middle class is not doing great now we should ignore the 50+ years of accumulated wealth govt policy helped one group get, and importantly, denied to another group. Yeah…lol
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@sb you dont get it because its a sad and oft repeated story: head of the family goes out on a limb, probably against all reasonable arguments, trying to get a better family life, and plays the odds, maybe you don’t know, stay with me here, and one little thing happens, that should be within the bounds, you know, homeowner’s insurance and so forth, and guess what, out on the street again, everybody… some people are not inclined to a lesson like this set forth without experience, that is sad but true.
and yes, the ruling class shares the wealth in terms of handing out criminal charges like candy corn on halloween but clearly, as white people, it is beyond disingenuous to say that there is parity in sentencing much less anything else.
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How about taxing the profits made from bail out monies banks, credit card companies and other financial racketeers got to keep them from going bust? The government gives them money at near 0% interest and they lend it to the public at 19 -28%, why not tax 90% of their profit?
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Reparations for blacks?
Liberals love to claim that “race” is some kind of fictional construct. How would we apportion the pot of gold? Given Obama’s genes, what would he receive?
How would one’s eligibility be determined?
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Regarding the so-called “bail-outs” of banks during the financial crisis.
There was no “bail out.” The banks were given LOANS. And those loans, unlike defaulted mortgages taken out by home buyers, were REPAID.
That makes all the difference in the world.
Meanwhile, homeowners with underwater mortgages — those owing more than the house would now sell for — have been given the opportunity to sell at a loss and WALK AWAY from the loss.
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It seems as peculiar to me to answer white folk’s questions regarding who should pay reparations, who should receive it, how it should be spent and how much they ought to receive AS MUCH AS it would be ridiculous to answer a child molester’s question about why said molester has no say in about what his punishment and payback ought to be for sexually molesting (exploiting) all the children he had charge over..
What legal or moral right has the child molester to dictate his own sentence, his punishment especially on the argument that his crime was 75 years ago and that most of his victims are no longer here today.
White people should NOT behave as this child molester. Even the clueless ones!
White people, today, shouldn’t pretend that they haven’t reaped the give-away land benefits (as well as land theft), privileges, enormous wealth passed on from one generation to the next, policies which make up a favorable 300+ years of Affirmative Action (for WHITES only) in every conceivable area at the expense of black and other people.
Blood still remains on your collective hands…until that debt is paid.
Now Coates is saying, “Let’s take a look at that blood on your hands… ”
What the hell are you afraid of???
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sb32199,
You don’t know what you’re talking about. The banks were absolutely bailed out. The direct loans were only a small part of the deal. The credit and bailout facilities (e.g. Maiden Lane, etc), FED backstops, allowing the banks to ignore GAAP and not mark their toxic assets to market and so on were and are a much bigger deal.
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George Ryder,
Sure…look the other way while someone else is robbed for 50 years while you make out then cry poor when the bill comes due.
Yeah, I love how we’re all in it together NOW, eh? You all get a taste of what blacks have been dealing with forever and you want to “Occupy” something and rail against the 1%. All of a sudden we’re all the 99%. How convienet.
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Coates:
Clyde Ross was a smart child. His teacher thought he should attend a more challenging school. There was very little support for educating black people in Mississippi.
But Julius Rosenwald, a part owner of Sears, Roebuck, had begun an ambitious effort to build schools for black children throughout the South. Ross’s teacher believed he should attend the local Rosenwald school.
Even then. Coates should report on the history of the Rosenwald schools. What would they be called? Charter schools? Private schools?
Meanwhile that same spirit of generosity exists today — on a much expanded basis. Has it helped? Hard to say.
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ks,
The banks have repaid the money LOANED to them during the financial crisis. You can look it up.
The reason for the loans, was, in part, to overcome the credit deficiencies created by “marking to market”, which is always a scary measure.
But mainly the loans were extended to keep the system from forcing itself to shut down.
In the summer of 2008, the price of oil peaked at $147 a barrel, and bottomed at $38, just two months later. On the basis of “marking to market” what were oil companies worth that summer?
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I was grossed out to see how in the Occupy phenomena people were categorized by race again. There was something called Occupy the Hood, which meant, “those poor blacks and latinos.” It was, unfortunately I think, created as a buzz term by a black guy and accepted (at some level or levels) by people living in poor areas mostly populated by blacks and/or latinos.
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George Ryder,
Boo hoo. I’m sure folks like Clyde Ross feel your POTENTIAL pain.
There’s not even anything on the horizon yet. In fact, the govt won’t even vote to study the issue but there you are complaining about the mere possibilty that it might affect you in some way at some undetermined point. This may come as a surprise to you but it’s not about you.
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gro jo:
The government gives them money at near 0% interest and they lend it to the public at 19 -28%, why not tax 90% of their profit?
If you’re paying 19-28 percent to borrow money, you’re living on your credit card.
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Coates:
Clyde Ross grew. He was drafted into the Army. The draft officials offered him an exemption if he stayed home and worked. He preferred to take his chances with war. He was stationed in California. He found that he could go into stores without being bothered. He could walk the streets without being harassed. He could go into a restaurant and receive service.
A noteworthy observation that disappeared from the article. Probably for its capacity to undermine the case for reparations.
Ross was shipped off to Guam. He fought in World War II to save the world from tyranny.
His military experience deserves a couple of paragraphs. What did he do? Where did he do it? How did things go for him as a black man?
But when he returned to Clarksdale, he found that tyranny had followed him home.
What? Slavery in a Nazi labor camp? Death in a gas chamber? Fighting on Iwo Jima?
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Coates:
The community was anchored by the sprawling Sears, Roebuck headquarters.
North Lawndale’s Jewish People’s Institute actively encouraged blacks to move into the neighborhood, seeking to make it a “pilot community for interracial living.” In the battle for integration then being fought around the country, North Lawndale seemed to offer promising terrain.
Sears, the Amazon and Walmart of its day, doing something to help.
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sb32199,
You should look it up as you REALLY don’t know what you’re talking about. The system was going to shut down because the big banks, in any rational world, were insolvent. Again, the loans were only a small part of the benefits the banks received and were primarily purposed to ensure that the banks met the minumum Tier 1 capital ratio.
They were not to make up credit deficiencies due to the banks being allowed to ignore standard mark to market rules. The loans were a pittance compared to the magnitude of toxic junk banks had on their balance sheets. That’s why special facilities like Maiden Lane were created.
You oil company example of mark to market is remarkably dumb as the overall worth oil companies is not simply determined by any given spot price of a barrel of oil. Are you actually suggesting that mark to market means that the value of say, ExxonMobil is determined by whatever price oil is at the moment? Laughable.
Also, it’s a terrible example because it doesn’t apply to financial services. For example, the price of a share of Apple is what it is. You simply multiply the number of shares a you hold X the current value and there you go. The big banks didn’t dare mark their junk to market because they knew they would drown in red ink and be out of business The regulators knew as well and outrageously allowed them to mark the junk to a fictious assigned by the banks to make it seem like the junk had actual value.
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Abagond,
This is your blog, but you need to put a new policy in effect.
How ’bout this… if you even suspect that a banned troll has adopted a new name and/or IP address, you have the right to ban his azz AGAIN based on suspicion or principle… especially if he comes back with the same old style, familiar syntax, tired arguments, and outrageous hubris..otherwise what is the point…?
People like super-boy here get to have more lives (chances) than he deserves as he makes a mockery of the spirit/rules here. It’s not like he’s going to learn anything that will open his eyes. He only comes here to – disagree, insult and disrupt.
Does he deserve a venue here to do essentially the same thing his ancestors did to ours? Repeatedly??
Let’s give another (new) troll an opportunity. This old tiresome one seems all used up!
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sb32199,
Your desparate nitpicking is hilarious. So because Ross was stationed in Califonia and didn’t face the overt personal discrimination he experienced in Miss., it undermines the case for reparations? You do realize that the issue is not one of simple personal interactions, right? Probably not.
Also love how you ignore that the “Sears” intiative in North Lawndale was underminned and destroyed the the real estate crooks first, and by govt policy later.
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@Matari
Which one is the banned troll? They pop up likes weeds I just stopped trying to keep up.
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ks
He is not wrapped tight AT ALL.
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[…] "“The Case for Reparations” (2014) by Ta-Nehisi Coates is an article that appeared in the Atlantic magazine. He argues that reparations for Blacks in the US is not merely a matter of doing right by Blacks, but something the country as a whole needs: …It is not just reparations for slavery: …" […]
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George Ryder,
You level of bu$$hurt is amazingly self centered.
Even if the govt decided to pay reparations tomorrow, your personal bill would likely be a few dollars at most and, in terms of the victims, the compensation would likely amount to fractions of pennies on the dollar comapred to what was denied and stolen from them. And yet even the possibility of that token allowance generates endless wailing from some.
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Sharina,
Indeed.
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Reparations for blacks in this country is too serious an issue to discuss with two nincompoops like V8 and George Ryder.
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“Which one is the banned troll? They pop up likes weeds I just stopped trying to keep up.”
*********
Sharina
The “genius'” former name escapes me now. I strongly suspect that sb’s (super-boy!) former self was the most recently banned troll that has been banned several times under different names.
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@ Matari
I doubt he is Da Jokah. DJ, for all his faults, was not that smugly and painfully ignorant. I was thinking No Slappz: they both say they have an engineering background, think they know finance, live in New York and talk like they have a relative who works for the New York public school system. The only trouble is, No Slappz had way more wit than this guy.
Most likely he is someone new. The Internet has no shortage of trolls.
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OFF TOPIC: the bank bailout
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White protective stupidity is in full effect, I see.
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^^
I think reparations are a good idea. Some parts of Australia have already started paying reparations to members/descendants of the stolen generations:
– In Tasmania (the least populated state) members of the stolen generation were paid reparations in 2008 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jan/23/australia.international)
– South Australia will soon follow. A Bill to pay reparations to the Stolen Generations was recently approved by the relevant Parliamentary Committee: (http://thestringer.com.au/south-australia-drawing-closer-with-stolen-generations-reparations/#.U4U8nvlmPng)
There’s still more to be done. With the current (conservative) Coalition Government it’s not likely that any proposals for Federal reparations will be considered within the next three years. Maybe when Labor is re-elected in 2016.
@ George
It is not at all difficult to arrange a mechanism for collecting reparations. It’s as simple as instituting a one-off levy that could be collected alongside income tax – say 0.5% for people earning under 50k then 1-2% for those earning over 50k.
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^^
Another one: descendants of Aboriginal people who were underpaid received reimbursement for lost wages under NSW scheme between 2004-2009:
“The NSW government has apologised for practices of previous governments, and in 2004 established an Aboriginal Trust Fund Repayment Scheme (ATFRS) to fully reimburse Aboriginal stolen wages to claimants for wages paid between 1900 and 1968, at today’s value.”
Unfortunately WA and Queensland did not really follow suit. They introduced reparations schemes but the cap was just $2,000 – not much money at all:
.
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Sorry, I tried to post a link. Here it is: (http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/economy/repaying-stolen-wages)
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@wordynerdygirl
Thanks for those links.
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Matari
I believe he may be a previously banned, but I can’t put my finger on which one. They all sound about the same to me so really hard to differentiate.
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The scope and scale are different Wordy.
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vastly different
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People should reclassify as black to avoid the tax incidence. Rediscover your roots and find, somewhere in your past: one drop.
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“we should have never bailed those lames out. i still don’t know why we did.” Ha ha. Yes you do, for the same reason Mr. Bundy fed his cows on government owned land and ignored demands to pay, and States with populations the size of a few blocks in NYC get the same representation in the US senate as states with populations in the millions. USA, the land of affirmative action for white people and no one else. Like all good Americans, you are for affirmative action, bail outs etc. as long as it’s for the “right” kind but you will never admit it, hence your perplexity. “i still don’t know why we did.”
Yeah, right.
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I knew after I finished reading this blog post and before I even began reading the comments that the white butt hurt would overtake this comment thread.The fact is that the longer this government puts off compensating black people, the more it is going to cost in the end, so they need to pay up.
The enslavement of our ancestors is just the first thing they’ll have to pay for.
They can then reimburse us for all those TAXES we paid into this system in the twentieth century that benefitted whites by providing them with housing, loans for their education, welfare monies to keep them from sinking into poverty, etc., and for which we have gotten NO return on our investment, Our money helped support public facilities that we were legally barred from under the Jim Crow system of laws, so we need to be reimbursed for that as well, thank you very much.
There was also all the theft of black-owned farmland, theft of payment for mineral rights, compensation for the gross bodily harm done to black people including but not limited to: dismemberment, lynching, rape, whippings, beheadings, mutilation, medical experimentation, etc., etc.This only scratches the surface. Do I really need to go on? The racists can take their butt hurt and choke on it as far as I’m concerned.This is business.
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@ Pam
the gross bodily harm done to black people including but not limited to: dismemberment, lynching, rape, whippings, beheadings, mutilation, medical experimentation, etc., etc.This only scratches the surface. Do I really need to go on?
Please do add to the list. If what you’ve put down is simply only, “scratching the surface,” I’d like an education on the rest. I’d like to know the full gravity or get as close to the full gravity of the wrongs, done to Black Americans, as we can. Serious request.
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I see we’re back to the “cutting checks” thing again. Somewhere David Chapelle is laughing.
So, not only do “they” generally not want to even consider reparations but if they must deign to do so, they want to compensate folks in a manner they see fit. Apparently even people like Ross who had actual direct damage must settle for some other solution. You just can’t make this up! Of course it’s never imagined that you can pay folks like Ross AND have broad solutions that target certain issues rather than an either/or choice.
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No checks or direct monetary payouts. If ever there were Reparations of any kind it would have to be in educational and/or small business investment where it would actually do the most long-term good.
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Let’s speed it up.
Let’s say there are worse things than what Pam mentioned. What I meant to be getting at is that the whole thing (black American experience of injustice in the U.S.) seems to exceed calling for reparations. Why not bring a charge against the U.S. at the ICC? I don’t know how this would be done but couldn’t it be done? (The U.S. is making sure not to be bound by the ICC; they will not ratify an agreement to be bound by the Court’s rulings.)
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(The U.S. is making sure not to be bound by the ICC; they will not ratify an agreement to be bound by the Court’s rulings.)
Quite odd of course, since the American nation-state is the bastion and example worldwide of peace and democracy.
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@ George etc
Well, I think that refusing to ‘cut cheques’ (i.e. pay reparations directly to the people they are supposed to benefit) is paternalistic at best.
Who are you (we) to decide how someone spends money that they are entitled to?
@ Legion
I get what you’re saying about scale – 10 x the population. But it could be done if it were a one-off levy.
I think it would be possible to contain potential avoidance scams (e.g. claiming ‘one drop’) by setting up an all black authority/department to administer the payments.
Perhaps their terms of reference/guidelines could specify that in order for someone to claim reparations they would need to demonstrate not only African American ancestry but a connection with the community or something.
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“i’d prefer to not have a tax increase if at all possible.
what i’m paying right now is already unacceptable.”
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Right! As were much of the things done to blacks by whites were more than unacceptable. As is the collective white refusal to even look at what whites did to blacks (and others) that warrants reparations.
Interesting –
We didn’t get to tell white people how they should spend the enormous amount of money they stole and swindled from us, but now white folks figure that they should have a say in how reparation money, if paid, should be spent. If that’s not the height of sheer arrogance, I don’t know what is!!!!
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^ I was unclear. I meant that the ‘stolen generation’ can be seen as a simple policy failure with severe consequences. What happened in America (is happening) is not just a simple policy flaw on the part of the State, it’s something far worse, therefore, perhaps simple reparations do not begin to address the American situation and perhaps are a sort of trivialization (in the U.S. context anyway).
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^ to Wordy
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@ Wordy
I’m very much against reparations in the conventional way it’s usually brought up in the U.S.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-235256
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@ Wordy
Well, I think that refusing to ‘cut cheques’ (i.e. pay reparations directly to the people they are supposed to benefit) is paternalistic at best.
No, it’s realism. You’re throwing feminist jargon at a realistic concern. You think every recipient of their monies is going to spend it with the wisdom of Solomon and the savvy of Warren Buffet?
Anyway, Coates’ piece is about (as far as I can tell) morality, not economics. Okay, so if we’re (abstract ‘we’) trying to resolve (to the degree possible) moral wrongs, then take the U.S. to a world court and revamp institutions and practices in the U.S. too. Do something about the bloody NYPD for example.
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As usual, the original rationale for reparations has been forgotten..
it’s not about “taking money from white people, George… because I am not white and I would have MY hard earned money taxed and used for reparations, just like every other working black or brown person in the USA.
Also, it’s real easy to figure out which black people would be getting the money–the black Americans whose ancestors were brought to the USA as slaves….
not recent immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean… but black people whose ancestors can find their names written down in ship logs or sales receipts….white slave owner’s actually kept meticulous records…
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George and the rest of you white Americans who are complaining need to bone up on your history….
Reparations are for the African descendants whose African ancestors were in the US of America BEFORE mass immigration of Jews, Italiens, Irish and other European immigrants of the mid -1800’s and 1900’s…
these African-American slaves were made a promise by the Federal Government… a promise that was BROKEN.
The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’
The promise was the first systematic attempt to provide a form of reparations to newly freed slaves, and it was astonishingly radical for its time, proto-socialist in its implications. In fact, such a policy would be radical in any country today: the federal government’s massive confiscation of private property — some 400,000 acres — formerly owned by Confederate land owners, and its methodical redistribution to former black slaves.
We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of “40 acres and a mule” was Union General William T. Sherman’s Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865. (That account is half-right: Sherman prescribed the 40 acres in that Order, but not the mule. The mule would come later.)
With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — “a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John’s River in Florida, including Georgia’s Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast,” as Barton Myers reports – would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves.
And what happened to this astonishingly visionary program, which would have fundamentally altered the course of American race relations?
Andrew Johnson, Lincoln’s successor and a sympathizer with the South, overturned the Order in the fall of 1865,
and, as Barton Myers sadly concludes, “returned the land along the South Carolina, Georgia and Florida coasts to the planters who had originally owned it” — to the very people who had declared war on the United States of America.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-americans-many-rivers-to-cross/history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/
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@ Legion
I wasn’t using the term ‘paternalism’ in a feminist sense – I meant it more in terms of post colonialist discourse etc. Determining how someone spends the money they are owed is denying that person agency and controlling him/her in the way a parent controls a child.
Another thing – why does it have to be reparations OR institutional reform? Why not both? With all the money thrown away on defence there must surely be a billion or two to spare.
There are multiple dimensions to this debate though. Perhaps as a non-American I’m less able to develop an informed view.
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Here are the details of the Order for Reparations:
Today, we commonly use the phrase “40 acres and a mule,” but few of us have read the Order itself. Three of its parts are relevant here.
Section one bears repeating in full:
“The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes [sic] now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States.”
Section two specifies that these new communities, moreover, would be governed entirely by black people themselves:
“on the islands, and in the settlements hereafter to be established, no white person whatever, unless military officers and soldiers detailed for duty, will be permitted to reside; and the sole and exclusive management of affairs will be left to the freed people themselves … By the laws of war, and orders of the President of the United States, the negro [sic] is free and must be dealt with as such.”
Finally, section three specifies the allocation of land:
“each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front, in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title.”
So, obviously, the US Federal government recognized that they needed to help the newly freed African slaves establish themselves, even though they were basically putting them on coastal “reservations” that were segregated.
The US government attempted to invade the Caribbean and tried to take over Central America in order to have a place to ship the freed African slaves after the war but my ancestors said “No Bueno, Gringos”
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Congress created the Freedmen’s Bureau shortly after Sherman’s Field Order No. 15 demanded the redistribution of land to former slaves.
The Freedmen’s Bureau was created to ensure that millions of free slaves would begin to receive economic equality and empowerment, their 40 acres and mule, shortly after the Civil War ended.
“The Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen, and Abandoned Lands was created by Congress in March 1865 to assist for one year in the transition from slavery to freedom in the South. The Bureau was given “the supervision and management of all abandoned lands, and the control of all subjects relating to refugees and freedmen, under such rules and regulations as may be presented by the head of the Bureau and approved by the President.
The bureau was run by the War Department, and its first and most important commissioner was General O.O. Howard, a Civil War hero sympathetic to blacks. The Bureau’s task was to help the Southern blacks and whites make the transition from slavery to freedom.
The Bureau was renewed by a Congressional bill in 1866 but was vetoed by President Andrew Johnson, who thought it was unconstitutional.
Johnson was opposed to having the federal government secure black rights. Congress passed the bill over his veto.
Southern whites were basically opposed to blacks having any rights at all, and the Bureau lacked military force to back up its authority as the army had been quickly disbanded and most of the soldiers assigned to the Western frontier.”
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_freed.html
The Apartheid system that black Americans faced in from 1865 until 1960 was not an Accident… it was contrived and methodical.
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@sb32199
The subtext of the preceding post suggests blacks looking for homes in the North Lawndale neighborhood performed NO due diligence on pricing, recent sales or sources of funds before walking naively into bad deals.
Due diligence, huh? I wonder if that’s what Ponzi said.
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I have to concur with Aaron Mcgruder on this one. Reparations, whether it’s payed in land, cash, or capital, isn’t going to happen. Ta-Nehisi doesn’t want reparations to be payed like “hush money”, but it would be worse than that; it would be held as evidence of American Exceptionalism in the face of human weakness, while that very same human weakness would allow the far-right to grow ever stronger in the political fallout that’s sure to follow.
This is a country that deifies a radical like MLK while shamelessly undermining the Civil Rights Acts, his life’s work, year after year.
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It would be fitting to legalize marijuana , and make a tax out of that for reparations , since most of the 700,000 people in jail each year for just marijuana possecian are black or brown and the law was made , in some aspect , to be used against black and brown people
In light of states legalising it and medicle marijuana , the drug , prison industrial complex war against marijuana is absolutly ridiculous, and federal regulation could be a great way to use some of the tax for some kind of reparations
There are creative solutions to these issues
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I read Coate’s article from beginning to end and was struck, as a 30 year old, how the crimes perpetuated against the black community were never covered at all, especially in the north in the post Civil war era. The US is a deeply diseased, racialized society… I am at a loss to try and understand how such blatant racist policies and attitudes have been deeply woven in US identity and culture, and yet no national political figure, not even Obama, have the guts to take this and other issues head on.
Reparations are need not only to blacks, but also to the Native Americans whom were ethically cleansed en masse, and those Mexican Americans whom had half their territory stolen from them, their linguistic and cultural rights taken away from them, etc.
The US like other colonialist societies have a similar societal model. The majority, the colonizer, disposses and rule over weakened minorities. They have access to the best facilities and access to the most opportunities in that society. The dispossed barely hang on.
This will all come to a head one day… The justice demanded by the slaves will never rest.
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@wordynerdygirl:
Also, which one should come first? I think there were references made in the article to stabbing someone and then stopping, and the wounds still being present as an analogy to this. But if institutional discrimination continues, then the metaphorical “person” is still being “stabbed”. We haven’t even gotten to the point of stopping the stabbing yet.
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“I am at a loss to try and understand how such blatant racist policies and attitudes have been deeply woven in US identity and culture..”
*********
How…?
Racism was once as wide open and normal as taking one’s children to an amusement park on the weekend. All of those racist postcards (and games) along with numerous other oppressive methods were designed to terrorize and marginalize (uppity) melanated people who didn’t know their place and made the mistake of becoming too successful/comfortable in the eyes of poor, jealous whites.
African Americans were de facto game (food) open to white people to abuse in any manner conceivable, for power.. for profit.. for lust … and to be kept in their lowly social status by any means necessary while THE LAW looked the other way (and still does).
.
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“no national political figure, not even Obama, have the guts to take this and other issues head on. ”
**********
In a nation that has convinced itself that current racism is “no longer a big deal” it would be political suicide for anyone willing to take this on. Contrary to popular belief, white elites (assisted by their yes men and Uncle Toms) still hold the reigns of power. The US Supreme Court had rolled back many gains secured during the Civil Rights era. Rev Jeremiah Wright told a few simple truths about RACISM … the president distanced himself from his former pastor as an offended white America called the good Reverend all sorts of names. They would have summarily lynched him 60 years ago!
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The thing about legalising marijuana , and using part of a government tax on it to go for reparations , is that it is addressing the legacy of slavery on two fronts.
Tha actual tax for reparations
And clearing out jail from people who only buy or sell marijuana , which would be overwelmingly black and brown people…
The tax on marijuana would be new fresh money , not money taken from any existing money the government taxes…it would be hard for whites to pout about that , or that it was taking money out of their pockets , or money from their personal taxes
And , black male incarcaration is a flash point in the black community, and, with the drug wars and seven hundred thousand people arrested a year for just having marijuana, who are mostly black and brown, huge numbers of black males will be out of jail , and this type of incarcaration , is one of the legacies of slavery…..marijuana legalisation and black men in prison are intrinsicly locked together
This is a very viable solution , tied into each other , involving revenue that wouldnt come out of tax payers pockets…it almost screams out as a real logical option
Either this can just be talk and reason for division and useless debate, or , this country can think out of the box for a change , and do what is blatently right and very feasable , legalize marijuana , emty jails of non violent users, and sellers , and set aside a small part of what is going to easily be a multi billion dollar tax revenue , for a well thought out reparations plan for Afro descendents who came from families proven to have been slaves in America
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@sb32199
Liberals love to claim that “race” is some kind of fictional construct. How would we apportion the pot of gold? Given Obama’s genes, what would he receive?
Social construct, like borders and laws. Obama would receive nothing since he isn’t of the same ethnicity as us. He’s Black, but half Luo, not African American.
How would one’s eligibility be determined?
It’s very easy for Black people to trace their ancestry to at least 1860. I’ve done it. Colombus Williams was 12 years old when the Civil War ended. From the look of subsequent census papers, he never saw his parents again.
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Abagond:
There is that.
Perhaps a more tangible question to address is whether or not “reparations” would achieve the desired goal.
In some urban metros like Washington DC, high spending per child has not translated into laudable academic performance. The “Kansas City” experiment similarly failed to produce good outcomes.
People have to accept accountability for their children’s education, or they won’t get a proper one. This applies to all races and classes of people. It doesn’t seem likely that attitudes will change when academics and policy makers are loth to even raise the question, let alone attempt to answer it.
Regarding the “social pathologies” argument, if the cause is discrimination, then shouldn’t those pathologies have been greatest when discrimination was greatest?
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@blakksage way to add to the convo!
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@ Wordy
There are multiple dimensions to this debate though. Perhaps as a non-American I’m less able to develop an informed view.
Yeah, I feel like I should cool it too, maybe (but if Reparations happened, I’ve always felt it would affect the diaspora: unintended consequences). Also, I haven’t read Coates’ piece and am not motivated to do so either.
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@ Randy
I get it: you think Blacks Are Unworthy – even of what has been stolen from them. Better to let the thieves keep it.
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George
I won’t take your comment seriously, but I will address some points on the subject at hand. I always remain on the fence about reparations. Mainly because I am not sure how it would be done and secondly I believe the families of slave owners should pay it.
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It is clear and indisputable that the economic lot of black Americans today in aggregate has largely been shaped by the prejudices and bias of white Americans and the US and State governments. Along with all manner of other injustices, economic harm has been done to black Americans by various States and the Federal government, either directly or through polices of exclusion. Only a completely blinkered racist could deny it.
It is also abundantly clear that something must be done to improve the lot of black Americans for the sake of us all. America cannot reach its potential, Americans cannot be free, none of us, while blacks are walled off from opportunity. The prison guard lives in the prison the same as the prisoner.
Justice and self-interest dictate that Federal and State governments must focus on improving the economic opportunities of black Americans and lifting them out of poverty and into the great American middle-class and if those programs are called reparations or affirmative action or whatever, it must be done or we will continue to languish in a backward and unjust society that tarnishes us all.
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“why stop at a civil suit anyways? reparations clearly are not enough.
perhaps this should be a criminal case and make whites truly pay what is fair, let’s execute them all and give everything they have to black people.”
********
LOL…. it’s becoming more and more apparent that the loudest squawkers here are those who for reasons unknown have not read Coates’ logical essay. Since this post is about that essay, why are they here posting nonsense/noise if they haven’t in fact read it?
How, in all fairness, can anyone critique what the man said if they HAVEN’T READ MUCH of what he wrote?
If this is typical of the reasoning/thinking skills current schools (public or private) are producing, then education is going in the same way as the dinosaur – and the word “shame.”
In fact, these individuals are so inept as to the extent of societal wrongs foisted upon black people, they can’t conduct their own rudimentary research and pled with Pam to show even more to them (in spite of our current Internet search engine age)!
Judging from the amount of base ignorance I see here, the controllers have clearly won!
Speaking strictly for myself, I’d rather have only one Tim Wise vs a million of these less than mediocre self-proclaimed so-called anti-racists that can’t think their way out of a paper bag, and sadly has a damned (LACKING) opinion about too many things.
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@ Pam, even though I find these disingenuous requests for MORE information well beyond the surface of what you’ve already provided, I’ll add a bit more off the top of my head!
If inquiring minds want to know more, let the lazy ignorant ones look it up themselves. God forbid that we need to be walking and talking history educators informing the ignorant ones (who should know better by now) why the USA atoning for our mistreatment and her numerous misdeeds is a very serious matter. It’s a tiresome job that’s already been done by many others. Yet they’re asking you to do their work for making a longer list. Unbelievable!!
**********
How about destroying black businesses and commerce nationwide by deliberately routing national hwys, plus their on and off ramps, in black neighborhoods.
The prison industrial complex that feeds upon young black males via the school to prison pipeline.
Modern overseers patrolling the cities and highways picking their prey based mostly upon one’s color (stop & frisk).
Traditionally, regardless of credit history white men pay the least amount of car loan interest. Black men pay the most.
Segregated military actually treated white prisoners of war better than they treated their own fellow citizens.
Bombing/burning churches – killing little black girls!
Predatory home loans!
Mainstream media saturated with negative messages about black people.
White people insisting that Jesus was white. Hardly!
Stealing and co-opting our music.
And countless other harms done to our bodies and psyches.
Why should Pam have to make more of a case for reparations and satisfy your desire for MORE information? It’s well documented and out there for any ignorant idiot who wants to find it.
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“why stop at a civil suit anyways? reparations clearly are not enough.
perhaps this should be a criminal case and make whites truly pay what is fair, let’s execute them all and give everything they have to black people.”
********
LOL…. it’s becoming more and more apparent that the loudest squawkers here are those who for reasons unknown have not read Coates’ logical essay. Since this post is about that essay, why are they here posting nonsense/noise if they haven’t in fact read it?
How, in all fairness, can anyone critique what the man said if they HAVEN’T READ MUCH of what he wrote?
If this is typical of the reasoning/thinking skills current schools (public or private) are producing, then education is going in the same way as the dinosaur – and the word “shame.”
In fact, these individuals are so inept as to the extent of societal wrongs foisted upon black people, they can’t conduct their own rudimentary research and pled with Pam to show even more to them (in spite of our current Internet search engine age)!
Judging from the amount of base ignorance I see here, the controllers have clearly won!
Speaking strictly for myself, I’d rather have only one Tim Wise vs a million of these less than mediocre self-proclaimed so-called anti-racists that can’t think their way out of a paper bag, and sadly has a damned (LACKING) opinion about too many things.
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Coates:
Blacks were herded into the sights of unscrupulous lenders who took them for money and for sport. “It was like people who like to go out and shoot lions in Africa. It was the same thrill,” a housing attorney told the historian Beryl Satter in her 2009 book, Family Properties. “The thrill of the chase and the kill.”
Wow. One of those emotionally grabbing quotes that grabs a reader who’s ripe for being grabbed. Everyone else says “Sheesh, more Glengarry Glenn Ross” and keeps reading, or perhaps becomes a little bored with excess.
The kill was profitable. At the time of his death, Lou Fushanis owned more than 600 properties, MANY of THEM in North Lawndale, and his estate was estimated to be worth $3 million.
Many of them? Who owned the other properties in North Lawndale?
Meanwhile, if his estate include 600 properties and their total value was $3 million, that means his average property was worth $5,000.
I have no doubt Coates is miles off base with his grasp of the financial picture.
He’d made much of this money by exploiting the frustrated hopes of black migrants like Clyde Ross.
Really? Any records to back up that claim?
During this period, according to ONE estimate, 85 percent of all black home buyers who bought in Chicago bought on contract.
One estimate? Yep, the highest wild outlier. That one.
“If anybody who is well established in this business in Chicago doesn’t earn $100,000 a year,” a contract seller told The Saturday Evening Post in 1962, “he is loafing.”
Oh. I see. A comment from an anonymous source with no credibility. Meanwhile, there’s no suggestion that blacks were the only people to enter into these deals. No matter. The comment sounds like a job recruitment line that you might have heard in “The Wolf of Wall Street”, “Boiler Room,” or “Glengarry Glen Ross.”
Contract sellers became rich. North Lawndale became a ghetto.
On, probably some contract sellers did well. However, the forces that turned North Lawndale into a ghetto came from the residents themselves.
It was just announced that Detroit is starting a de facto homesteading program. This one’s for writers. If they’re poor (what writer isn’t) and they pass the evaluation, they’ll get a free house to live in. If, over two years of occupancy, they make a few improvements, they’ll get full title.
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@Matari:
Thanks for providing more examples for the brain donors to chew on. Of course everything you’ve listed won’t be good enough as ‘proof’ for them, because nothing ever is. That is one of the many insidious mind games that whites play, and since they’ve had centuries of practice, they’ve become masters at it. But guess what? Everything comes to an end, including their ‘game’.
I have no intention of providing any more examples of why black people should get reparations in this country. If it wasn’t on the IQ test then they’re SOL.
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@matari Your responses show that you are much more aware than I am about these issues. I believe that there has to be a collective spirit, a collective will, amongst the 50 million black Americans to say enough is enough. As someone suggested, the ICC should get involved. Black Americans need to rise up and hold demonstrations, sit ins, make watching films like 12 years a slave mandatory in high school curricula across the nation. The nation in its entirety is deeply wounded when a mass of humanity have over centuries had their dignity and rights taken away from them. Black men need to reclaim their manhood, black women need to reclaim their inner beauty, and black people need to take back their humanity and dignity. They have to fight, and fight hard. The souls of the millions of black slaves will lie in peace until this is done. Their needs to be mass mobilizations..
If there has to be another civil war, or Syria type situation, to wake the populace up, then so be it. Better to fight for freedom then to die slowly in tyranny. Black people are made up of the same space dust that the almighty used to creat all human beings. This is just so senseless i feel like i can’t do anything about this.
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i meant to write that their souls will not lay in peace.
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I should’ve came to this party early on. I see some people don’t see the deeper meaning behind the case for reparations. Either that, or they’re just trying to silence everything they consider “liberal” responses.
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@George Ryder n
The riots and demonstrations of the 60s were the only way that blacks could have their rights given to them by a reluctant federal government. I think that the black population needs to understand that the white population will do everything in its power to keep them out of their spheres of life through heavy policing tactics, white flight, and denial of all types of services. “Violent revolution” may not be the answer, but a mass of blacks millions strong marching in DC and in major cities across the nation while congress is in session may bring the issue of reparations to the forefront of the national conversation. Millenial Blacks need to understand that in 21st century america the venomous hate in the soul of white america that put their ancestors in chains is still alive and well and will never go away. sad to say.
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The Canadian federal government issued a formal apology to the First Nations communities that were affected by the residential schools. It is one part of several other initiatives to make amends for the cultural genocide and unspeakable abuse inflicted on First Nations children for decades. Reparation payments are also being distributed to each victim according to a formula, and Truth and Reconciliation hearings are also underway. I think this is a wonderful example of what is possible in terms of reparations in the American context, as it relates to African Americans. I also think a revamping of what is taught as American history is in order to ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.
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Im all for a form of reparations. And may a formal required educational course be established for all those not up to speed about race relations in America. And for the newly arrived and in general all that have been influenced and have a preconceived notion of behavior and race be educated properly on the matter.
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Those people that haven’t read or comprehend Coates approach to reparations are clearly just going through the motions. He wants everybody and that means “everybody” to contribute and that starts with understanding and removing institutional racism thus changing approach and attitudes towards race that are largely carved by the media biases and social popular opinion. If taxes go up all people including black people and other minorities will pay for a “change” in the country. Don’t post on this blog thinking it’s some kind of anti-white bs and why are some of you on this blog with that mindset anyways. This material is not for you.
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Coates:
We were not there when Woodrow Wilson took us into World War I, but we are still paying out the pensions.
Nope. The pensioners are all dead. Meanwhile, only the veterans themselves, and possibly their spouses, received the pensions. Not their descendants.
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Coates:
Indeed, in America there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife.
Based on the context in the article from it was taken, it’s not clear if the preceding sentence was intended to be metaphorical or literal. Either way, I’ve never heard the statement itself or any kind of reference to it, which suggests it’s a thought that floats around only in the black consciousness.
By the way, members of which race most commonly stab blacks? Something tells me the stabbers aren’t white.
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@ sb
Coates is extending a metaphor Malcolm X used.
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Wish we could discuss Black women in corporate America. I am still dealing with whites thinking black women should be marginalized and black men not want black women *sigh*
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Can any black women again tell me how I deal with this? I find it frustrating.
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@Matari:Preach!
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@ Alicia
Please take it to the Open Thread
@ all
If anyone wants to do a guest post on Alicia’s question, that would be wonderful.
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I want reparation for slavery even though I am Canadian. I am descended from African American slaves who were Loyalists and runaway slaves. I can trace my lineage back to the slave ship at least one got off. Do I want cash? Saying such is just feeding into the white racist’s fear as some have already posted here. I want an acknowledgement to start of the horrors, privations and psychological terror perpetrated on Black people since they were brought here and treated like filth and vermin. I want them to acknowledge the devastation wreaked on black families via forced separation(it took my family of one hundred years to connect again). I want the to acknowledge the cultural genocide they perpetrated. Unfortunately the list is inexhaustible! To start, I want an apology. But you know what? I aint holding my breath! To empathize with others plight, one must possess empathy which it appears these racist whites overt or covert, don’t. You see, it is all about them and their precious feelings.
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Oh and I read the article and Coates was, is bang on. They did the similar things here but on a smaller scale as there weren’t very many Blacks in Canada until fairly recently.
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This is just my personal belief but if reparations were to be issued to Black Americans, whites would burn this country down. This would surely start a race war. We see how they react to the first black president. It’s just my thought.
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President Obama said that there would be no reparations.
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@ Matari
I was interested in what Pam believes were worse or equally abhorrent things than she had already presented. I was interested in her personal view, I can only get that from her.
Anyway, the matter seems to be settled: I wanted to make the point that the seriousness of the injustices under observation perhaps deserve a venue like a world court, and I did so. Also, Pam is pleased with the additions that you made to the list.
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Both the House and the Senate have made formal apologies for slavery:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/29/house-formally-apologizes_n_115743.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/u-s-senate-apologizes-slavery-article-1.375231
Clinton is said to have made apologies for slavery to the people of Uganda during a tour of Africa. Uganda, which is located in East Africa, was not actually involved in the trans-Atlantic slave trade.
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@mary burrell
This is just my personal belief but if reparations were to be issued to Black Americans, whites would burn this country down.
You’re mistaking black behavior for the white response. Whites don’t burn anything but oil, gas and coal, all in the appropriate combustion chambers.
This would surely start a race war. We see how they react to the first black president.
Reaction to the first black president? The black president who was hooted out of Egypt? The one who hasn’t ended the war in Afghanistan as he said he would? The one whose healthcare program is shriveling by the day? Who had to find a way to fire Sibelius without admitting the program is a bomb.
The one who raised our national debt into the stratosphere? The president who’s put up more impediments to economic growth than any predecessor, yet is skating by because capitalism is so powerful even his Marxist inclinations can’t hogtie it.
Meanwhile, the Coates article omitted 50 years of welfare, housing projects, Medicaid, Affirmative Action on the job and in college admissions.
Whites know Obama’s presidency, and its incompetence, will come to an end in 2016, so there’s no need for some form of white flight. Like the Taliban with respect to the US military, we all know Obama and his hapless administration will soon go away.
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@ Herneith
…a smaller scale as there weren’t very many Blacks
The Indians were here, as you know. Plenty of injustice dealt their way.
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Goerge:
i seem to remember them being known for burning a few other things too
Not in the US.
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“You’re mistaking black behavior for the white response. Whites don’t burn anything but oil, gas and coal, all in the appropriate combustion chambers.”
***********
Maybe you’re right, Abagond… about DJ and all, but this certainly looks like something only he would say that is ridiculously stupid. Just finished a cursory check via some search engines. Information overload… white people love to BURN, bomb, smash, shoot and riot to the extent that anyone saying otherwise ought to die of terminal blushing and total embarrassment! I’m almost astonished that silly boy (sb) would publish a rather blatant lie about white people. Talk about swallowing the blue pill… Delusions sure do run deep!
http://www.timwise.org/1999/08/the-kids-are-all-white-riots-pathology-and-the-real-meaning-of-color-blindness/
“… Like the Taliban with respect to the US military, we all know Obama and his hapless administration will soon go away.”
********
subterranean boy, you should take your outrageous lies and “go away,” too.
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“Mary Burrell
This is just my personal belief but if reparations were to be issued to Black Americans, whites would burn this country down. ”
*********
I agree.
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@ sb
You overplayed your hand here, sport. I thought you were painfully ignorant, but apparently you are just a troll.
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To SB3199:
You’re mistaking black behavior for the white response. Whites don’t burn anything but oil, gas and coal, all in the appropriate combustion chambers.
No. Race Riots in the US were primarily started by Whites (or they did the most damage) through the 1940s with the exception of the 1935 and 1943 Harlem riots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_racial_violence_in_the_United_States
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@ Matari: Thank You.
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Abagond:
I don’t believe that I’ve made such an argument.
Nearly all of us are the progeny of peoples who have been the oppressed and the oppressors, perhaps many times over and gain. If historical grievances are to be redressed, it seems fair to define a framework that works for everyone. That’s the “moral argument”.
The “practical argument” is whether reparations would actually do good. There are many reasons to believe they wouldn’t. Coats dismisses the “pull your pants up” directive without explaining why. And yet such seemingly trivial practicalities seem necessary for success in the modern economy.
I see plenty of white “youths” slouching along with hanging trousers and what sounds like a mouth full of marbles. Perhaps someone more enlightened can explain which government program is going to fix that and how.
The recipe for success in 2014 is well known and nearly universally available. That wasn’t the case in earlier times, but we don’t live in those times anymore. Fighting the last war’s battles never produces success in this one.
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@ Mary
Speaking for myself, as Herneith already alluded to, I would be happy to receive whatever reasonable reparations award. Angry whites can then burn themselves and the nation. I can go live elsewhere.
Fire has a way of purging sin, guilt, impurities… sometimes cleansing that which needs it. And other times it just gets RID of the damned … garbage problems.
Remember the Biblical phrase, … “tried by fire?”
See 1 Corinthians 3:13 and 3:15.
Justice awaits, one way or another. The Universe shall see to it.
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Randy,
Up to your usual trolling tactics, huh? I use the word trolling because it seems that no matter how much or how strong the evidence is shown to you, you always come away with – another – or the same argument.
I know it’s probably a waste of my time, (as far as you’re concerned) but since there are other readers lurking and cloaked in the background, I’m going to post this link to counter your latest rally. This is well worth everyone’s time to read and ponder, especially in the light of Coates’ essay.
http://millionsforreparations.org/feagin.html
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Matari,
Offering reasonable counterarguments isn’t “trolling”. Further, you haven’t refuted those arguments nor even attempted to. Coates hasn’t either.
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“Offering reasonable counterarguments isn’t “trolling”.”
*************
That’s not going to work with me, Randy.
“In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” [Wikipedia]]
You wrote: “I see plenty of white “youths” slouching along with hanging trousers and what sounds like a mouth full of marbles. Perhaps someone more enlightened can explain which government program is going to fix that and how.”
*******
Please save your tired explanation re what you REALLY meant by writing the above. Many of us here have had plenty of practice seeing through the BS you put out.
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abagond, with regard to whites and fires, I’ll give you Sherman’s burning of Atlanta during the Civil War, The Great Fire of Chicago in 1871, the Triangle Shirtwaist fire in NYC in 1911, the fire-bombing of Dresden during WWII, and I’ll throw in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Crosses were burned by menacing whites and some homes of blacks were burned. Compared with the self-inflicted destruction in Watts, Detroit and South Central, to name just three, whites were minor players.
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George. Do you and Kiwi have some prophetic awareness from whom exactly the reparation monies will come from, or are you just like typical American folks, not wishing African Americans to receive our just due???
If it is the former, please explain to me how it is that the two of you are uniquely aware of how the future is going to unfold… and who will be paying for what?
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@herneith i would not say you were ‘lucky’ for any reason, obviously other than being alive; certainly ‘unique’ applies in your ability to have been able to trace your ancestry. most AA descendants of slaves I’ve talked to, you know you ask them where they’re from, it’s not common for them to know, past maybe 2 generations previous eg “my grandma’s from south carolina?”. I think linda is off base here, and this hearkens back to a deleted comment i’d made here, it was an undeclared war against africans back in the triangle trade days, all other ish to the side. I dont’ think records, however meticulous, would have followed newly freed slaves scattering to the winds, and certainly under no obligation or obvious desire to keep their slave surnames… or anything to do with their former lives.
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“Is it really so hard to believe that people who had no part in slavery don’t want to give someone who was not enslaved money because a distant relative was enslaved? ”
************
George, is it so hard to believe that all manner of benefits that white people derive from black people being kidnapped in chains and brought here, extends well beyond slavery’s end??? If the end of slavery was in fact the end of black oppression in it’s countless forms, chances are we wouldn’t be here discussing reparations now. But slavery’s end DID NOT end the mistreatment of Africans in America – and the multiple benefits/wealth/privileges it brought to white people.
Or, is this more of a reading comprehension issue for you?
Sometimes I feel like I’m your personal teacher. I hate this feeling of .. showing you things that you should be able to see for yourself. And then, you still fail to see them!
You are the quintessential, clueless white person. That’s not an insult. It’s merely an observation. I now clearly understand why some here refuse to engage any white person. It’s typically a lose-lose-lose situation.
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@ryder did you read the article?
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“but me personally, i am beginning to think reparations should be paid. and if it came in the form of public-school funding for predominantly black school districts, mortgage subsidies for low-income blacks, and extensive food and healthcare services in lower-income, predominantly black neighborhoods i think eventually all America would benefit from this.”
and
“I guess you forgot to read the rest of my post huh???
you grab one tiny bit of my statement and hold me over a fire for it. seems to be a lose-lose situation for me too.
it’s easy to be misunderstood around here.”
************
I didn’t misunderstand a thing George. I was trying not to address your covert way of saying how reparations funds should come to black people – and the implication that black people have no self-agency to look after their own financial affairs according to how we as individuals see fit.
Again, speaking for myself, I don’t place much trust in gov schools, etc, etc, etc.
And, if America said out loud that “All America would benefit from this” in the things you’ve mentioned, I’d put my SHIELDS UP and tell every melanated person I could — “Go on RED ALERT!”
Because you trust America doesn’t mean that I do also.
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Matari
You actually pointed out one of the most ignorant of the responses I have been seeing in here. This idea that reparations should be dictated on how it is to be spent. It is not the job of certain individuals to tell blacks how they should spend the money. No one tells them how to spend theirs.
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@Mary Burrell
“This is just my personal belief but if reparations were to be issued to Black Americans, whites would burn this country down. This would surely start a race war. We see how they react to the first black president. It’s just my thought.”
Its funny you should say that. It’s funny because based on how blacks have been treated, are belong treated now and what they are owed, a race war should already be underway with black terrorists bombing and gutting this nation to the ground. That whites being asked to provide justice through a rightful remittance to blacks would be the ones to start such a violent race war says everything really.
Regardless, morally and to promote America to a nation based on a shared idea rather than ethnicity, the history of black disenfranchisement, impoverishment and violence at the hands of the Federal and State governments and whites generally must be addressed. It is impossible to be a proud American and simultaneously be aware of the great crime committed to blacks and native Americans unless there is redress. A crime has been committed, the victim lays in a pool of blood and the perpetrator says, “hey I’m done hitting you, why don’t you get up dust yourself off and forget about it.”
Have you been to America’s urban heartlands from Philadelphia to Oakland to Chicago and on and on you see black poverty and wasted lives on a scale so vast that it shames me to even think about it? It’s embarrassing to be an American and have to explain it to foreigners. You can’t explain it. It’s unconscionable. It makes a lie of everything this hypocritical country says its all about. Because they know and you know that the reason these black ghettos exist is theft, disenfranchisement and neglect at the hands of the white masters of the most powerful nation the world has ever known.
I am amazed at the restraint of black Americans. That they have not formed into guerilla and terrorist cells and are not currently bombing this country to the ground speaks to their basic decency and love of America.
Now I agree that explicit transfer payments from the Federal government to individual blacks would be difficult. However, the Federal government and Congress should as a first step acknowledge that a debt is owed to black Americans. That’s the first step, acknowledge the debt. Acknowledge that even now, whites are benefiting from the historical subjugation of blacks.
That’s the first step. Can we even get to the first step?
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“No one tells them how to spend theirs.”
**********
Sharina, EXACTLY.
It’s their paternalistic nature coming to the fore. It’s simply another insulting way of them telling us we are “less than” and in need of their supposedly superior guidance. If this were a civil court, and I an attorney for the injured party, I’d tack on an extra amount just for this slight. I think they call it “damages” nowadays.
What jury awards the injured party on the basis of how the offending party believes the award should be spent? Or, what child molester stands in front of a judge and tells him that a 2 year suspended is enough for his raping of 16 three year olds?
Also, notice that the Jews, Japanese and even some Native American received their restitution without all of this insulting drivel regarding how their restitution monetary awards ought to be spent.
Some here even tried to suggest that reparations might cause a greater rift between the injured and offending parties. smh.
Were the Japanese recipients of restitution harmed by any further alienation between themselves and other so-called minorities? Hardly!
Additionally, I don’t see the Jews alienated any more so from Germans because the Germans paid reparations to them.
Why are there so many frivolous arguments against doing what’s right?
All the silly arguments we’ve heard thus far against why it shouldn’t be paid to black people has its roots in the same thing that brought us to this point in the first place – racism.
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George,
STOP trying to play the victim. You are not the victim here.
You’ve had so many different ideas, opinions, change of tunes, and avoidance dances. It’s a wonder that YOU even know where you truly stand.
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LOL
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Kiwi
“The most probable outcome would be that non-blacks, white and nonwhite, would turn sour against blacks.”
************
LOL!!
And you think that they aren’t already soured against blacks… because…?
Are you hinting to me that black people are no longer on the lowest rung on the socioeconomic ladder, in the USA?
“What makes you think reparations would pan out the way you envision it?”
**************
My memory fails me. Please remind me of “the way” I “envision it.”
If “envision” is really the word you wish to use then perhaps you can point me to a date, day and time link where I made that particular comment?
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Kiwi,
Are you telling me that as a non-white person your relationships with your black friends would sour if they received reparations?
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“The Jews are white enough that reparations for them are even more favorable than reparations for nonwhites.”
*******
Have you gone to Germany and conducted this survey?
If not, how would you know this?
Would you be an expert on the racial machinations of white Germans?
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The most probable outcome would be that non-blacks, white and nonwhite, would turn sour against blacks.
**************
Kiwi,
Why would I and/or other non “model minorities” even care if things soured further? Is there more to lose??
And if there is, why should I be afraid of losing the few crumbs that fall off their (and yours too, I presume) table?
I’m not trying to be white!
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“v8driver,
I think linda is off base here, and this hearkens back to a deleted comment i’d made here, it was an undeclared war against africans back in the triangle trade days, all other ish to the side. I dont’ think records, however meticulous, would have followed newly freed slaves scattering to the winds, and certainly under no obligation or obvious desire to keep their slave surnames… or anything to do with their former lives.”
Linda says,
V8, that’s true, I’m sure there are many black Americans who don’t know from which State their slave ancestors hailed from but they know that their people came from “down South” and that’s a start.
AS for us black and brown immigrants from Africa, Caribbean, Europe, or South America… we know EXACTLY where we are coming from because our ancestor who immigrated to the US got off a plane or a ship and this information is passed down to each generation–dates and all.
that is the first thing that will differentiate who the “real” black Americans are and who is going to get reparations.
and don’t forget that there were free black Americans who were living in the northern States during slavery times, so obviously, black Americans who descended from these people would most likely be excluded from reparations. (if reparations were to be handed out based on the Sherman’s Field Order No. 15 and the Congressional bill in 1866)
Professor Louis Gates, Jr. has been able to trace people’s ancestors successfully in his ancestry researches, so it’s possible for black Americans to find out who and where their people came from in the USA.
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/finding-your-roots/about/
Ship manifestos can be used in tracing ancestry because they kept records.
“To fulfill the law that required proof that slaves were not illegally imported into the United States after 1808, manifests of cargo carrying slaves were submitted at both ports of departure and arrival with appropriate statements swearing that the slaves listed “have not been imported into the United States since the first day of January, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Eight…”
The manifests contained the name of the shipper or slave owner as well as their residence. They specified the name, sex and age of each slave to include a physical description – stature and designation of “negro, mulatto or person of colour.”
A collection of the Slave Manifests, albeit not all, have been salvaged and microfilmed by the National Archives in US Customs Service Record Group (RG) 36 and the originals are held at the Regional National Archive branches: Philadelphia, Atlanta, Texas, etc.
Outbound manifests from 1820 to 1860 with destination names – Savannah, Charleston, New Orleans, Pensacola, Florida – and slave names, allow researchers to trace a ship and its cargo-passengers from origin to destination.”
http://www.archives.com/experts/brandt-kathleen/using-ship-manifests-for-slave-research.html
100 years is not that long of a time, there are people who were born in the late 1910’s that are still alive, so its possible for most black Americans to find their slave ancestors (with the exclusion of orphans and adopted children)
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Kiwi and George:
As an immigrant to this country, I personally have no problems with black American descendants of formers slaves to receive money as part of a reparations deal because they were not and were Never allowed to play on the same field as white Americans and other marginalized immigrant groups.
it was NEVER a fair playing field– if it was, then there would have been no need for the US government to change it’s Apartheid policies against American black people.
As for where the money is coming from… all that speculation is BS and further more, who cares? You, me and everyone else already has our money taken and spent on s’it we did not sign up for.
no one ever asked me if I wanted the oil companies to get my tax dollars for research or if I wanted to support farmers who grow corn or soy… I’m in favor of alternative energy
but yet, I have to listen to bunch of politicians and bureaucratic a-holes talk about “how they wish MY hard-earned money to be spent” on oil, military defense, etc and I have no voice or control in their decision making policies or how they spend my tax dollars.
If I understand it correctly, the US government in 1865 enacted a law for reparations to be given to the former black American slaves and their descendants, and that law is still on the books.
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@Kiwi
Well; of course it won’t come from “just” white people.
America owes them….why would it be?
I mean; the lowest rung of whites in society aren’t excused from what happened, the people who weren’t white at the time aren’t excused……basically once it gets to the point you can more less be treated alright and succeed in society you become part of the crime, so why would the other people of color be?
As pointed out; if it takes too much longer by default it will be the mestico’s doing the paying simply by being the majority population then.
And could reparations lower relationships between native born African-Americans and other groups? I suppose it could if you felt they were being given advantages not available to others or it might lower your opinion of their success like some people with affirmative action……and I suppose immigrant African-Americans might have more conflict with native born African-Americans.
@general
Also why only give reparations to descendants of slaves? Part of the deal is that oppression has continued for much of the US history why not every African-person immigrant or not until the 1980’s?
The people whose families used to be slaves might not be able to actually pay the debt. A lot of them are actually pretty poor nowadays.
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@ Kiwi
I think your expierence with racism/antisemitism in Europe is a rather recent development. Especially in Germany Jews are treated in some ways like Native Americans, romanticized because they are no longer enough to bother anybody. But whenever an issue arises that actually affects the jewish community, anti-semitism ist well and alive. I think you view european racism to much through the american lens. In Europe it’s not so much about being white, but being the right kind of white (at least historically, non-white immigration is probably changing this, in Britian and France more than in Central Europe).
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“V-4@ Also why only give reparations to descendants of slaves? Part of the deal is that oppression has continued for much of the US history why not every African-person immigrant or not until the 1980′s?”
Linda says,
V4, this is a really stoopid comment on your part (actually your whole snarky comment)
first, black immigrants do not call themselves “African American”… they know where their immigrant ancestor came from, so they call themselves by their nationality ie Trinidadian-American, Bahamian-American, etc….
you’re ignorance is underwhelming on this subject.
2nd — reparations is not about “oppression”… it’s obvious that you know nothing about American history or you would know the history of why reparations was promised to the black American slaves/descendants.
White Americans like you are the reason why this country stays polarized and talks between white and black Americans go nowhere … you like to play the victim and only like to distort history, while viewing “reality” through your own rose-tinted eyes
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“https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-235531
Your post above makes it clear that you envision blacks receiving reparations from whites.”
***********
Kiwi-
LOL… Is that the best you got regarding my – envisioning?
Evidently!
Nonetheless, I’m not saying that some whites shouldn’t pay and that some whites should pay more than other whites.
But at any rate, I believe that your argument is horrendously weak and frivolous.
Which argument?
The one that suggests whites will somehow force other non-whites to pay blacks reparations (how could that be reparations??) thereby souring relations between blacks and everyone else.
YOUR argument is that you’re against restitution because blacks should give up our due because some big bad white boogeyman might get mad(der) at us, make us slaves again (?) and lose our allies among other non-whites. Please…if our so-called allies left for that reason they weren’t really allies, ever!
I would expect that sort of reasoning to come from someone naive, like maybe George. It’s disappointing to see this strange reasoning coming from you, a supposedly non-white person. Had you been around 100 years ago you would have probably thought that the ceasing of lynching and gaining the right to vote would’ve made whites even more incensed at blacks.
WTH… I would hate to be you, living life imagining certain outcomes to be real, even before they materialized. That’s the definition of delusion.
But hey … to each his own…
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Matari:
I mean what I say. In 2014, the barriers to a financially secure future for the poor and working class (white, black, or otherwise) are largely due to attitudes and behaviors.
You’re continuing a proud site-wide tradition of avoiding any explanation as to how a government program will alter these.
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Randy, what “government program”– restitution aka reparations is not a government program.
U.S. finalizes $3.4 billion settlement with American Indians
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/26/politics/american-indian-settlment/
white America seemed strangely silent about this reparation made to the Native Americans.
Reparations is between the affected minority groups and the US federal government… it’s not about “white people”
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Agabond, thanks for posting this. Very good article by Mr. Coates. My two cents, the mechanics of how reparations would be paid are not as important as the level of sincerity needed for an entire culture to honestly admit to deliberately destroying their brother in the name of profit. To me the debt that has to be paid is the debt of asking forgiveness and admitting fault. And as a Christian, I believe that the debt will be paid either now or later. Comprende?
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@ Kiwi
” The blacks, Arabs, and Asians who were born there were treated like outsiders, however, so I saw similarities with the US.”
That part is certainly true. In terms of Anti-Semitism I think the difference between the US and Europe is the anti-semitic left in Europe. The right might be more comparable to the america, sensitive about antisemitism, not at all concerned with racism against pocs.
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I see Randy’s back, and in “top” form as ever.
It’s collective shame.
The only way to bottle up that shame is to continue with the fiction that blacks are inherently inferior to whites, whether that’s transmitted through modern media, historical portrayals or continuous and deliberate miseducation. There’s also a strong desire to maintain the status quo, for fear that giving blacks a genuinely fair shake would somehow rob whites of their economic, social and political power. I guess they really do fear being beaten up, tied up and dumped into cast-iron stew pots while a bunch of nude, barefoot black guys do a tribal dance around the pot.
Reparations? That ship’s sailed a long time ago. The best time for that was during Reconstruction. Then again, giving ex-slaves and their descendants recompense and a chance to establish themselves on the same level playing field would have posed some problems among the southern planter class and their northern counterparts once these folks really started grabbing the levers of government. For example, see Wilmington, N.C. circa 1898.
Now there’s no dollar amount that could ever repay black Americans in full for the evils they’ve suffered, not that it could ever be measured in mere dollars. Reparations has to be, in a sense, cosmic or karmic.
Karmic reparations would be black Americans and black culture thoroughly and completely supplanting white Americans and white culture as the default/norm/status quo. Blacks not just at the helm of government, but also working it behind the scenes. Blacks in firm, total control of the various economic sectors and the military. People around the world admiring and kissing up to blacks the same way they do to whites. You know, that sort of thing.
Monetary reparations would not only act as blood money for whites (I can hear it now – “but we gave you people money, so we’re even Steven), but it’d also be like water running out of someone’s hands. Until we find new ways of keeping those dollars among our own within the black community, monetary reparations would be akin to a stimulus package that goes straight into the pockets of those responsible for our troubles.
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Excellent commentary as per usual, Mack Lyons.
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@Mack Lyons,
I think you hit a couple of relevant points, e.g.,
yep, while we can certainly bring out the topic of Reparations for slavery on the table, in practicality, it will be pretty much impossible to administer.
The reparation for the Japanese-American internment came some 45-50 years after the event, only went to actual internees, and its paltry amount was basically a case of too little, too late. It was more like a symbolic gesture as an apology, that would help the US wipe that part of the slate clean.
Did the reparation for the Lost Generation in Australia extend beyond the children of the lost generation. At least that would be easier to track.
Now that we are 6-8 generations past slavery, we won’t be able to administer it in anyway that would be equitable, e.g.,
– Probably over 30% of descendants of slaves have now passed into the white population or other non-black category. Their ancestors suffered from slavery also.
– if marking “black” on the form would do it, we would suddenly have 10-15 million people switch their identity back to black.
– what about all the people who immigrated, or are descendant in the post 1965 period?
– what about those who identify as black, but who now have higher or professional degrees or own houses in upper middle class neighborhoods. What will the reparation money do for them?
Agree, reparations for slavery would have to have been done during reconstruction.
yes, money, at least money alone will do almost nothing to fix the problem.
And yes again.
What is most likely to happen is any money paid out will find its way right back into the pockets of the troublemakers. For example, if they give money to people to buy a house, the predators will be out in force to find ways to take their money, and a few years later, take back their houses without any impunity.
Over the past 45 years, we have seen all sorts of ways to attack the problem
– Affirmative Action
– forced desegregation
– Fair Housing Act
– Prohibition of Restrictive Covenants, Blockbusting, Contract Lending.
Yet, we still have severe racial imbalances, we have ghettos, racialized police brutality and new predatory lending schemes to replace the old one to fleece people out of their money and property. And many of the victims were also white people (e.g., in the cases of blockbusting or predatory lending, some might also argue in the case of Affirmative Action, too.).
And yet the problem is still here.
The perpetrators still just get richer and more powerful.
What I would like to see is something like:
1. reorganize our jurisdictions to prevent gerrymandering special interests.
One popular way to split off responsibility is to split off poor and black neighborhoods from rich and white ones. I think metropolitan areas should be reorganized to include the entire metropolitan areas, with poor ghettos and rich white neighborhoods in the same fiscal jurisdiction.
Non-metropolitan areas can be combined into a way that would serve the same function as consolidation of the metropolitan areas.
So, there will be no advantage to move out of a neighborhood into another one as the resources will be thrown into the same pile.
2. Decisions will be made that will benefit the greater community
I remember that political interest groups (ie., wealthy) blocked the metro in Washington, DC from serving both poorer black neighborhoods as well as rich white ones. The rationale? they did not want to spend money on transportation for poor black people and rich white people did not want transportation access to their neighborhoods – attracting “undesirable elements”. The result is a system that spent a lot of money but did not serve the greater need.
3. Put money in areas that need it.
Put the best funded schools in the neighborhoods with the students that need the most help. For example, if 50% drop out of high school, then that is where the resources go. Then divide the remainder among the rest. Set up special resource centres that, say, the “talented and gifted” could access.
Most metro areas have a terrible transportation system that would not permit efficient allocation of resources. Again, I think it is usually wealthy whites who support such an inefficient infrastructure system.
4. Penalize any system that practices racial profiling / racial steering
There is a precedence for this. For example, school systems which flouted Brown v. Board were subject to mandatory busing desegregation. Private schools lost their tax exemption by practicing racist admissions systems or by expelling students who married or dated interracially, etc.
From my point of view, there should be certain public goods which all people should equal access to, e.g.,
– education
– public security (e.g., police, fire, national security)
– health care
– infrastructure (transportation, water, utilities)
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@ Randy
Trivializing hundreds of years of Black American history, from 1619 to 2014, by making it about sagging pants. Wow. No wonder people think you are trolling.
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@Linda
Just going by the essay; a big part of why it said reparations needed to be done wasn’t just because of slavery but the continued oppression faced by black people post that like in Chicago.
@ Mack Lyons
Don’t they; one of the things I’ve seen on this blog was comments by African-Americans that outside the US they often get an “American” privilege.
Of course; some places like France isn’t fond of Americans but still.
That’s also a good point; even if the Government gave ever black man, woman and child in the US a billion dollars individually.
Much of that would end up pretty quickly back in white hands; buying houses, food, cars, land…..sure it would be beneficial to the black population but it would be just as much a reparations to the south, since that’s where most of them live.
Which on some level would be kind of ironic.
It could be argued; that much of white culture has already been supplanted by black culture. Music, clothes, language, mannerisms…..”white” culture as it is is already fairly mulatto.
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Karmic and Cosmic reparations. I like the sound of that. I wrote a long-ish response addressing this very issue. Then I got the feeling it was a bit far off the beaten path and didn’t post. IMO, we are at the point where the only possible just recompense is the destruction of white civilization and the rebirth of black civilization. If you push a barrel half way up a conical hill and release it, it will roll back on the same side. If you had pushed it past the summit then released it, it will still find level but on the other side. We are past the summit. How much fiat money is the methodical besmirchment of an entire people and the destruction of culture, ancestral knowledge, and spirituality really worth?
A lot of things we take for granted have their origins in black cultures. Whites have not only taken, they’ve also worked hard to write blacks out of history. I like etymology because it sometimes reveals hidden things. For example, chemistry is alchemy which comes from al-kimiya which leads to al- (arabic ‘the’) and km (ancient egyptian for ‘black’). It’s the knowledge of “the blacks”. Ancient Egyptians called their nation kmt and called themselves kmw—blacks (-w is for plural).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/km
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=alchemy&allowed_in_frame=0
Of course they were invaded and because of the high profile of ‘Egypt’ it was claimed as a white, sometimes ‘Middle-Eastern’ civilization. It is, in fact, located on the African landmass and was the Northern portion of the black Nile Valley civilization which stretched from the region of Nyanza Lake (Victoria) towards the Mediterranean sea following the fertile Nile valley. It is a matter of geography and fate that the southbound barbarians would come upon important cities quite early. White terror has been going on for millennia. Our more recent experiences (in the last five centuries) have taken place during the second act. It was post-destruction destruction. The bones weren’t yet shine so they came back to lick the blood stains and suck the marrow. The behavior is predictable and repeating at different times and places. For example, the positive trajectory that Southern black people in America were on during reconstruction was set back by the resurgent KKK and Jim Crow.
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So again, what payment is just except the dissolution of the entire unjust system whites have built and their being plunged into a reciprocal period of distress? At this point, any payment in fiat money would be like being paid (in prison jumpsuits) to remain in jail. Balancing the scales of justice lies way beyond the realm of money now. It is now in the purview of the laws of the universe.
I’m going to go off on a different trajectory here but here’s the thing: NaTuRe seeks to rectify all imbalances. This is the game of creation. Every automatic dynamic we observe is in the direction of a return to the NeuTRal point. A balloon into which air is forced will deflate on its own and remain uninflated. A ball thrown up, will return, bounce and settle stationary. Someone born with an excess of masculinity will seek a more feminine counterpart (and vice versa) while an adrogyne/lgbtq seeks similar. A pendulum when disturbed will swing back and forth with ever decreasing amplitude until it settles at the midpoint. The separated opposite charges in a battery will unify via a current through the load then the battery dies as it is neutralized. Indeed, the entire universe came a from balanced singularity through the introduction of an imbalance (wind-up) which generated creation and the stream of time which leads nowhere else but back to itself: the phoenix, ouroboros, alpha and omega, protos and eschatos, the one who is, who was, and is still to come.
The original overarching pattern (cyclical going away from neutral repose in order to set up a kinetic return) is self-similarly imposed on everything within the universe as a recurring law. So the current situation in which the environment and other people are raped in order for whites to profit will balance itself. That is the denouement. Furthermore, as whites once existed only as a potential within the human genome they are destined to return to that state as part of time’s eschatological descent.
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Matari said:
“LOL…. it’s becoming more and more apparent that the loudest squawkers here are those who for reasons unknown have not read Coates’ logical essay. Since this post is about that essay, why are they here posting nonsense/noise if they haven’t in fact read it?
How, in all fairness, can anyone critique what the man said if they HAVEN’T READ MUCH of what he wrote?
If this is typical of the reasoning/thinking skills current schools (public or private) are producing, then education is going in the same way as the dinosaur – and the word “shame.””
———————————-
I actually considered asking Abagond to bar comment by anyone who has not read the Coates piece or the Order for Reparations. This would have barred me, had he barred such people, which I would have been fine with. Anyway, I wanted to be upfront about not having read the piece. I also, instead of asking Abagond to bar people, made some comments about people who won’t read the piece but talk about it. I thought that would at least be a little deterrent to possible vapid commenting.
Having said all that, people can judge for themselves how much value a commenter is bringing and just how badly they might be off base. People can scroll past certain names too, I do it with a few commenters who don’t interest me, and I’m sure people scroll past me too.
Now, I did read something I thought was pretty interesting and chilling at certain points that it made. This piece does not feature a specific human as a vehicle to tug at heart strings. (Sorry, the Coates piece is probably more than just about the gentleman who moves to Chicago, I’m referring more to the incessant media technique of eliciting emotions and using “concrete” “human” “stories” to do so.) I’m not saying that kind of approach never has a place but it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, and it isn’t always appropriate or effective. Further, in the case of systemic problems it is nice to see a piece take a macro view and leave your heartstrings for you yourself to pull if you so wish.
This piece draws on a recent study done by a couple academics. I enjoy comparative studies like this, it’s where you see the rot of your society come out, you see something of the truth. You see, at least, that, “something is rotten in Denmark”.
The part of the article that covers “black pathologies” is very sobering. That term “black pathologies” is not overtly used. Look for the paragraph that introduces blacks doing everything “right”, that is: graduating college, getting a useful degree, getting a STEM degree, etc. The unemployment and underemployment figures there with blacks who do “right” are what I’m talking about when I say the rot gets exposed. (By the way, a student who reads the article should not lose heart: continue your studies.)
The open ended final point in the article is justice needs to be pursued, education is not enough.
I know it’s not the first time for someone to post an article like this but who knows what thread that is now?
Enjoy:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/05/29/no-college-isnt-the-answer-reparations-are/
(does anyone know why she refers to Coates’ essay as “a thing”?)
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Linda:
That payment to Native Americans appears related to a particular unfulfilled agreement, rather than sweeping restitution for historical injustice. I’m not seeing how that action is related to the topic of this post.
Abagond:
Perhaps it’s a testament to our societal advancement that in 2014 “sagging pants” and related behaviors, rather than discriminatory laws and practices, are an actual barrier to wealth attainment.
Again I suggest that one cannot win today’s war by fighting the previous one.
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It’s just Randy being Randy. No surprise here. He’d rather we instead talk solely about how dysfunctional we are as a people and how whites had little, if anything, to do with it. It’ll be a boost to his frail ego and a “get out of talking about uncomfortable things free” card for himself and others.
“Sagging pants.” That’s what concerns you in an age where black men in business suits are still given the fifth degree, in a society that’d rather see them all wearing orange jumpsuits. “Sagging pants.”
Not that you’d have to worry about that for long. There’s a cultural shift towards young blacks adopting what was traditionally white skater boy attire – skinny blue jeans and whatnot. You can thank Lil’ Wayne and others for that.
@jefe
All the points you listed necessitate working through the current political system. Not saying it can’t be done, but doing so would be akin to pushing Origin’s barrel up the hill, except there are people on the other side doing their damnedest to push the barrel back.
Right now, our best hope would be to say “adios” to the system and instead do what I’ve seen many other ethnicities in the U.S. do and what we’ve done before (largely out of necessity): create a “system within a system” that caters solely to black needs and interests. Since begging fruitlessly to be integrated into mainstream white society hasn’t worked out for us, perhaps it’s past time for us to uncouple ourselves from it.
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Reparations is a global (probably cosmic as well!) issue. But it has a community specific context which should not be overlooked or marginalized. Hence the topic of this post: The ta-nehisi-coates case for reparations in the American context.
Its no good simply talking about reparations in a monetary context. This makes us part of the same system that placed us in bondage in the first place. It also LEGITIMIZES the system of property and ownership – Slavery!
African peoples were never slaves who could be bought and sold in the first place! So how can you offer any sufficient amount of monetary compensation for such a wrongfully imposed legacy? You can’t ! You can only agree to implement a new structure geared towards repairing and rebuilding what should rightfully exist as one of equality and justice for Africa, it people and its global Diasporic descendants today.
The following UK video Big Question debate shows Esther Stanford-Xosei, who is part of the Pan-African Reparations Coalition in Europe (PARCOE)
http://www.estherstanford.com/about_esther.html
I don’t believe I’ve heard any other person speak with more vision or legal, social, economic, spiritual and political insight on the issue of reparations than her..
Here she sets out very articulately the UK context (and Caribbean countries) for reparations and what this concept really should be about…
Should the UK pay Reparations?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGf_0rEfXcE&hd=1)
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I guess I shouldn’t have written so much in my previous post and just gotten to the point faster.
In the link I posted, there is a segment that has a look at blacks who go to the labour market with a clean bill of health (no pathologies) and how they are still discriminated against.
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Of course as Randy says here in 2014 where everyone is equal. Its largely the self agency of African-Americans which holds them back from achieving any real level of economic stability.
Randy
“…I mean what I say. In 2014, the barriers to a financially secure future for the poor and working class (white, black, or otherwise) are largely due to attitudes and behaviors…
Excellent interview dispelling this nonsense here:
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An analogy
The subject of reparations somewhat reminds me of a Worker’s Union Contract negotiation where the elected union rep’s task is to sit down with management and hammer out the best possible contract deal for the workers. If the mgt does not talk/negotiate in good faith, etc – the workers go on strike until some forward moving activities occurs.
Here’s a thought…Speaking of strike, could we move this country toward JUST LOOKING AT REPARATIONS if 3/5 – 4/5 of all working black people coordinated and conducted their work, business and financial affairs to cease all and any activities on preplanned specified days? No going to work, no buying gas, no using mass transit, buying groceries, paying bills, etc on a particular previously agreed upon day.
As a collective, we have tremendous economic clout/power that can be used on a nationwide scale in much the same way that the Montgomery Bus Boycott was used by black people in Montgomery, Ala.. only faster! (I can hardly wait for all the naysayers to step forward and tell me why this is foolish, isn’t possible and why THIS can’t possibly work.)
Back to the analogy: What type of reparations/restitution agreement might our imaginary union reps hammer out with mgt?
What’s important is not that we all receive our just due. That’s likely impossible because we – as many have clearly pointed out – are owed way much more than mere money. More important, to me anyway, is that the USA PAYS SOMETHING – A JUST PAYOUT. What does a JUST payout look like? That’s for the smarter than me, savvy folks (union reps) to work out.
IMO there ought to be various forms of restitution, as there is no one size fits all award for everyone. Black recipients should be able to choose what works best for them, individually!
Gary shouldn’t decide what type of restitution I get, nor should I decide how Gary and his family gets theirs.
Let the individual people decide. Whether it’s land, cash, education, grants, businesses, relocation, geography, relocation to another galaxy or nothing… In other words, let’s have choices, options…. for those who are interested. No one should be forced to do anything. Those who are qualified to receive a payout might get a combination of all of the above, or all of one item up to an agreed upon amount or value.
As potentially compelling as SOME of the arguments I’ve seen here are: about orange jumpsuits, barrels being pushed uphill, how the time is past for reparations, why reparations shouldn’t be taken, and so forth, I have this to say. Let me remind ALL that we are (especially me) at best is a collective of various OPINIONS, We are folks sharing with other opinionated folks what we think (and probably would do for, or to, all blacks in the USA – regarding restitution – if we had the power to do so). It’s a good thing we don’t have the power to speak for ALL melanated people other than our self.
What’s especially bothersome to me is reading non-black people weighing in with SOME CERTAIN thoughts and ideas about reparations.This doesn’t sit well with me. Why should non-black people have a say in black people’s affairs? This is just a blog… but in reality – in real life, I would find this offensive and disrespectful at best. Hell, it’s even chilling to observe what SOME blacks would decide (is right) for ALL 37 plus million of us here in the US. (“Nope, no reparations for anyone!”)
I like Coates’ essay.. the thrust of it, … getting the nation to sit down and look at the total history.that has unfairly robbed/harmed blacks while enriching/benefiting whites. I’m in agreement with him on this – at the very least before anything else might be done, let’s JUST LOOK at this together, as Americans (if that’s possible..). Then we can move on, in whatever direction that may be.
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@ Kwamla
Right, the Coates article is not just an argument for reparations but a take-down of the Bootstrap Myth, one of Randy’s most cherished beliefs.
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@ Abagond,
Thats exactly right! What he does beautifully in the interview is show clearly how institutionally implemented widespread racist policies systematically prevented any attempts by Black people from escaping their economic disadvantages through individual self agency. A legacy that thrives even to this day…
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@ Randy
These arguments are besides the point.
If I steal your car, the police are not going to care whether giving you your car back “would actually do good”. They give it back because it belongs to you. Further, they do not have to resolve all cases of stolen cars to resolve your case. The theft was wrong in and of itself.
Likewise, it does not matter what Blacks do with their reparations. It BELONGS to them, it is theirs by right. Whites have no more right to tell Blacks what to with reparations than a car thief has the right to tell you what to do with your car.
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@ Matari,
Actually, this excellent historical research by Ta-Nehsis Cotes sets out a great case for legal redress concerning reparations during the 30’s 40’s and 50’s.The example of the housing policy was overtly discriminatory and went on for years.
There are already many precedents for this type of action. And Housing, as Cotes points out, would only be one area or aspect to consider. This in itself forces the issues to the meeting table for negotiation and discussion
This is similar to the type of challenge someone like Esther Stanford-Xosei, (Jurisconsult) speakert of the Community Law Circle on The CARICOM Reparations Initiative) has undertaken.
Its also consistent with precedents that previous reparation awards have been based on.
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A little help please.
Last 40secs of Kwamla’s fist vid. A man points out that the poorest regions of Africa TODAY are the same regions were the greatest slave capturing/selling was done.
What is the connection? What economic feature or other features begun during the slave trade has persisted to keep those regions economically blighted?
——————–
(does anyone have knowledge about how those regions teach their history? imagine the shame of selling humans to the whites. how does one teach the participation in that part of history?)
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@ Abagond
If I steal your car, the police are not going to care whether giving you your car back “would actually do good”. They give it back because it belongs to you. Further, they do not have to resolve all cases of stolen cars to resolve your case. The theft was wrong in and of itself.
Likewise, it does not matter what Blacks do with their reparations. It BELONGS to them, it is theirs by right. Whites have no more right to tell Blacks what to with reparations than a car thief has the right to tell you what to do with your car.
What are the “reparations” that belong to them? For you, are the reparations a cash payout or something else? This word “reparations” seems to be getting different definitions. The woman in Kwamla’s vid didn’t mean a cash payout in her definition.
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@ Legion
“…A little help please.
Last 40secs of Kwamla’s fist vid. A man points out that the poorest regions of Africa TODAY are the same regions were the greatest slave capturing/selling was done…”
Its not quite right to talk of – “slave capturing/selling” – as if it was some sort of trade. This was not what he was saying. He was speaking of those regions, Central and West Africa, from which Africans were taken to be slaves. So any assumption of trade taking place in this context is invalid and simply what you are projecting.. Further, these regions after the abolition of the slave trade were subjected to colonialism (and after independence) neo-colonialism which still lingers on to this day.
To assist in your appreciating and understanding the economically depressed state of many African countries. It would be useful to read up on Colonialism and Neo-Colonialsm which still today remain the biggest factors and legacy of the European imperial conquest of Africa. (Walter Rodney – How Europe Undeveloped Africa?)
“…What are the “reparations” that belong to them? For you, are the reparations a cash payout or something else? This word “reparations” seems to be getting different definitions. The woman in Kwamla’s vid didn’t mean a cash payout in her definition…
Both Esther Stanford-Xosei and Ta-Nehsis Cotes talk about Reparations in a much wider context: social, economical, legal, spiritual, moral, etc, etc This includes and does not exclude monetary payouts. Why should it? Particularly when there are legal precedents for such cases. This is why the housing policy during the years of Jim Crow is such a blatant practical example of the theft and plunder of state resources Black people as citizens were legally entitled to.
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@ Kwamla
Its not quite right to talk of – “slave capturing/selling” – as if it was some sort of trade. This was not what he was saying. He was speaking of those regions, Central and West Africa, from which Africans were taken to be slaves. So any assumption of trade taking place in this context is invalid and simply what you are projecting.. Further, these regions after the abolition of the slave trade were subjected to colonialism (and after independence) neo-colonialism which still lingers on to this day.
I’m well aware that “slave capturing/selling” were my own word choice. As far as I know certainly some portion of slave capture was trade, maybe not all of it, which is why i said “selling” (trade) AND “capturing” (another means of getting slaves).
As far as the colonialism goes, I thought that was were he was making a mistake, maybe. Because, that is the lingering effect I’ve been aware of for years: Not that slavery in regions blighted those regions down to today but that colonialism in specific regions blighted those regions down to today.
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This question to Abagond:
What are the “reparations” that belong to them? For you, are the reparations a cash payout or something else? This word “reparations” seems to be getting different definitions. The woman in Kwamla’s vid didn’t mean a cash payout in her definition.
You see that “For you” part Kwamla? You’re not Abagond, right? So don’t answer for him. Thanks.
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Just to make it clear, I believe reparations are morally correct. I have no argument against it in principle. But I believe black people are at great risk of collecting a ‘settlement’ rather than reparations. With a settlement one signs away one’s legal right to litigate in exchange for a sum of money. True reparations involve justice. There is no way around that. Any money, if collected, shouldn’t be termed reparations but unpaid ancestral WAGES with compounded interest. I wouldn’t want anyone to assume I could accept money so we’re even in terms of alligator feedings, lynchings, executions by police, psychological terror, etc. That is a different kind of debt.
But I’m not even worried about reparations. I’m not sure why whites are so surprised and self-congratulatory that they are generally wealthier and ahead in the game. Of course they’re going to be ahead of those they took things from. In truth, all the necessities of life are basically free of monetary cost. Life itself is free. Land is free. Who can own it when it was here before them and will reclaim them? The land owns them! Edible plants grow freely on it and they are watered freely and pollinated freely. What has occurred is that the white people’s system has confiscated the necessities of life and created a token (money) which only it has the right to create. It has assigned a value to everything, including humans during ‘slavery’, in terms of this token. The primary way for most people to obtain this token is to spend most of their lives working in the system. Before they even receive their wages, some of it is deducted (taxes) by the same system that has the ability to create it. They then return some (maybe most) of the remainder in order to obtain the necessities of life such as food and a place to live. Note that even if you ‘own’ a portion of land, you are compelled to pay property tax in terms of the token or it will be taken from you.
I see this as a system of slavery and a parasitic entity upon the planet. That most people work for something that some people conjure up is proof enough of the first point. Equitable exchange must involve the exchange of commodities that are of real value to human life. If a token is used for convenience they must directly represent a real good. I would not accept payment of ancestral wages in fiat money but in permanently untaxed land. The second point, that this system is an agent of planetary destruction, is equally evident. It needs ever more things for ever expanding money to buy (endless economic growth) and this is colliding with the very simple reality of a finite spherical planet. It’s unsustainable. That’s just math, or maybe ma’at. Watch for animals sickening or dying at higher rates. A lot of that is already happening…
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@ Legion
The form reparations would take is to be determined. Thus HR 40. Or are you asking what I would want?
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Continued from above:
Just a few examples of recent animal die-offs and illnesses especially off West Coast
Marina del Rey
http://www.myfoxla.com/story/25552627/thousands-of-fish-found-dead-on-surface-in-marina-del-rey
Walrus Disease
http://www.adn.com/2014/05/13/3468030/investigation-into-walrus-disease.html
Abalone die-off
http://www.sfgate.com/science/article/Abalone-massacre-pinned-on-microscopic-coastal-5467283.php
Sick Seals
warning not html but pdf:
Click to access ume_factsheet0214.pdf
“Beginning mid-July 2011, elevated numbers of sick or dead seals with skin lesions were discovered in the Arctic and Bering Strait regions of Alaska”
Maybe…just maybe…this has something to do with it:
http://www.north-slope.org/assets/images/uploads/AMSS2014_seaicescenario_Dasheretal_final.pdf (pdf)
“Models suggest pinnipeds may have been exposed [to radioactive fallout] while on ice..Hot particles, nuclear fuel fragments, were detected in air samples taken in Svalbard Norway”
If fuel fragments from Fukushima Da-ichi were detected in Norway they also fell over North America and obviously more so on the West Coast. So at this point I basically say: F this sh*t. Within the context of the destructive reality whites have created any reparations are illusory.
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Kwamla:
OK, I’ll give it a listen.
abagond:
From what I read, the article argues against the bootstrap myth in your grandfather’s day. Does the same situation apply to your son?
abagond:
Very true. But the police won’t take something from me and give it to you because someone unrelated to me treated your grandfather unfairly in a previous era.
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@ Legion
“What is the connection? What economic feature or other features begun during the slave trade has persisted to keep those regions economically blighted?”
It’s part of the so called “atlantic theory” that basically stated that the atlantic slave trade disrupted the afflicted african societes to such extend they couldn’t recover. As far as I know the theory has been rebuffed as eurocentric and not supported by evidence, but I don’t know the specifics.
@ Kwamla
Why is slave trade not an appropiate term?
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” But the police won’t take something from me and give it to you because someone unrelated to me treated your grandfather unfairly in a previous era.”
**********
I disagree. Criminal and civil courts should take back every last ounce of a thief’s spoils and return it to it’s rightful owner as best as they can determine.
In the white club’s previous era, everyone was related – via their common membership. In those days of the 30s, 40’s, 50s – before & since, the overwhelming number of your collective stuck together like glue when it came to sticking it to black (remember MUD?) people.
It was one of the rules of being WHITE.
Even captured WWII German POWs were accorded more respect and dignity than black OFFICERS serving in the U.S. military. This type of treatment stuck. There were no whites visibly upset, angry and protesting in the streets about about this inhuemane, unpatriotic, mind-numbing hatred. That made all of you WHITE club members (related) family – in my eyes! Today, convicted white ex-felons have about the same chance at finding work as black men who never been to prison.
If your (unrelated or otherwise) great-grandfather stole a bunch of gold, diamonds, cash from my great-grandfather’s safe, and YOU’RE currently enjoying the benefits and spoils (via compounded interest, cash, escalating market value …) of this theft, are you suggesting that I have no moral right to attempt to reclaim that which was stolen from my ancestors and passed on to you?
Despite your soft-spoken style, and pretense at being reasonable – the fact that you continually take these type of counter stances, non stop, says much. None of it’s flattering.
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Origin,
I copy all that!!
No dispute.
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Kartoffel, you said:
Is it? I thought early European crossings of the Atlantic to the Americas was called the Atlantic Theory. I have, though, heard of West African historians who say that societies in the continent were afflicted by Atlantic slave trade to the Americas, and the effects continue to be.
Take the Ghanaian historian and lawyer, Mohamed Shaibu Abdulai, who says that:
the loss of millions of the strongest men and women during the slave trade is one reason for this underdevelopment.
“The slave trade actually prevented the coming into being of an agrarian revolution in Ghana, and likewise an industrial revolution. Because before you can industrialise you need to have stable agricultural production. So slavery has a very long effect.”
Some estimate that without slavery the population of Africa would have been double the 25m it had reached by 1850.
“During slavery many of the able-bodied people, between 18 and 40, were taken out so society’s ability to reproduce itself economically, socially and culturally was impaired,” says Zagba Oyortey a Ghanaian cultural historian.
Gold or slaves?
Another legacy of the trans-Atlantic slave trade was the fuelling of conflicts and long lasting rifts between communities which in some cases remain.
Many of the slaves were prisoners of war, and enslaving an enemy soon became a motive for going to war.
“European traders found it hard to get slaves during times of peace. However, when there was war, gold was scarce and slaves were widely available,” says Doctor Akosua Adoma Perbi, the head of the history department at Ghana’s Legon university.
“One traveller wrote in his memoirs that in 1681 he had got only eight slaves after combing the whole of Ghana’s coast from west to east. But when he asked why that was, he was told the people were at peace.
So warfare was a major source of slaves.
From:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6504141.stm
Another historian from Ghana, Akosua Perbi, believes that the legacy of slavery is real in every African country where slavery was practised and poisoned practically every aspect of African life. The effects were not only far-reaching, but current. She says:
“As long as there is no problem, then we consider ourselves to be ‘one people’ and the identify of former slaves remains a family secret. But the moment something goes wrong with a land claim for example, you have to show who is realk who. You can read 40 pages into a land claim to suddenly find that the holder’s great grandmother was bought and therefore never really owned the land ”
Dr Perbi points to her own family experience:
“A few years ago, my uncle was asked to be a chief in my hometown in Ashanti country. Each of the four royal houses takes turn to appoint a chief My uncle was selected by our family but the other three protested. For four years, there was no peace. They even set his car on fire. He took his case all the way up to the National House of Chiefs. ‘No !, they said. ‘Your pedigree is a problem.’ In fact, his great great grandmother was bought in a slave market in the 1800s. So my uncle had to step down. We are talking about something that happened almost 200 years ago.”
http://www.vgskole.net/prosjekt/slavrute/publications/chain_reactions.htm
She wrote about this more (basically how African “slavery” is differs to slavery in the Americas), in “A History of Indigenous Slavery in Ghana: From the 15th to the 19th Century”.
I haven’t read Mr Coates’ article, nor the thread in full (late as usual, lol!), so I don’t know if this is relevant to the the discussion, but I just saw your brief comment and wondered what you meant.
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@ Bulanik
That is a different atlantic theory. The one I meant doesn’t get that many hits on google, so i’m not sure how widespread the term actually is/was. I don’t know nearly enough about the issue to comment on any of the things you posted, I commented just to give some context to the remark in the video.
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Excellent contribution Bulanik. Its often forgotten and ignored the impact of taking away crucial sections of a people (18-40) can have on a community. These were significant members of a growing population in a culturally advanced society.
And of course the manipulative and unethical tactics of creating artificial wars to facilitate a trade that profited slave hungry Europeans. The commerce may changed but the tactics still pervade the continent today.
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this blog and topic is an excellent forum to discuss the issue of Reparations.
what are they ,why should they be considered etc
As a lower class member of american society I’m well aquited with the effects and utility of ecomomics and crime.
some things you can’t put a price on ,just as some things are not for sale.
some crimes are minor and can be forgiven ,others any apology is meaningless.
Currently to my surpise i find the value and need of money as well many white european instiutions grows increasely less.
Things I saw and predicted out of optimism and Idealism slowly come to fruitation.
And entire instituions I was once in servitude to have gone out of business and or been rendered obsolete.
Should we black and brown people be asking white people to give back some of what they stole from us or devising means to take what is justly ours?
What lessons have we learned from our limitations,failures and resulting victumization?
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@ Kwamla
More: what is popularly known as “broken Africa” and “sub Saharan Africa”, the Dark Continent full of savages, backward, primitive, cannibalistic and reported as ever — allegedly — in an ever-downward spiral of chaos, poverty, HIV/Aids, etc., etc., etc. And failed continent and… geopolitical irrelevance.
Warped, but isn’t this warping also a reflection on the African-descended peope of slaves in the West, isn’t it?
After all, as in the colonial past, many of the present-day penetrations in Africa also corporate and governmental, too
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*were also corporate and governmental, too.
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Kartoffel wrote:
“That is a different atlantic theory. The one I meant doesn’t get that many hits on google, so i’m not sure how widespread the term actually is/was.”
_ _ _
Kartoffel, I’m wondering if, perhaps, your reference to the”Atlantic theory” is more respective of the African ‘Atlantis’ /Atlantic theory as was promulgated by German archaeologist and ethnologist Leo Frobenius (?) ….
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Matari:
Let’s first consider that your example differs from the reparations debate in important ways.
For one thing, in your example the amount of the theft is known, and one can reasonably calculate the present value. Also, you can possibly determine how much of those ill-gotten spoils that specifically accrued to the thief’s descendants.
None of these “knowns” exists in the reparations discussion.
Ok, but let’s say they did, would you still have a claim?
I would suggest not, primarily due to the statute of limitations. From what I understand, the main purpose of statutes of limitations is to protect people from living in fear of ancient liabilities.
Imagine if you had to worry that anyone from your old paper route customer to a long-defunct CD of the month club could claim compounding damages against you for even honest errors made decades ago.
Add in exposure to historical grievances and one’s potential liabilities are nearly limitless.
Matari:
I’m simply trying to be fair and rational.
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“Imagine if you had to worry that anyone from your old paper route customer to a long-defunct CD of the month club could claim compounding damages against you for even honest errors made decades ago.”
“I’m simply trying to be fair and rational.”
**********
But not honest! You’re desperately clutching at straws to remain afloat in your fantasies. Most everyone sees your blatant dishonesty except you. Why is that?
I get that you can’t handle black people getting back any of what was WRONGFULLY and DELIBERATELY taken from them by force, by violence.. physical or otherwise. There were no honest errors in any of that. I haven’t any more time to waste on you.
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@ Randy
Statue of limitations usually apply to crimes and it depends solely on the state. Some states will start the clock once the crime is committed while others will start it once the crime is discovered/reported.
Reparations would likely fit in the category of restitution (act of restoring; restoration; restoration of anything to its rightful owner; the act of making good or giving equivalent for any loss, damage or injury) and as far as I am aware there is no limitations on that.
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“…your old paper route customer to a long-defunct CD of the month club….”
_ _ _
That Blacks have been subjected to four centuries of oppression (which is not limited to the 250 years of actual enslavement, but includes as well the one hundred year period of Jim Crow which followed so-called “emancipation”, and the now 50 years — and counting — of covert Jim Crow / institutional racism which followed on the tail of the Civil Rights era of the 1960s) hardly equates to an “old paper route or long-defunct CD of the month club”.
As well, the issue of reparations does not concern someone’s nefarious, thieving grand-daddy stealing ‘stuff’ from the grandfather of some other individual. What it does concern, though, is the centuries-long fostering and allowing of intentional and ongoing oppression / subjugation of Black Americans by the US federal government, AKA “the United States of America”. It is this issue that needs addressing, and it is this issue that is in need of a solution.
Too, that any individual person’s great grand-daddy was living somewhere in Europe more than a century and a half ago before he and/or other family members voluntarily brought themselves to the US has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
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I wouldn’t say it defeats the bootstrap myth only that it shows it was notably harder to accomplish and maintain among the generations for the African-American part of the population.
Today; our most successful immigrants are African ones, specifically the Nigerians aren’t they?
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The Case for Reparations is a well written insightful article.
Murray Rothbard wrote the following in chapter 11 of “The Ethics of Liberty”:
“It was only the coercion of slave labor that enabled the large plantation system in staple crops to flourish in the South. Without the ability to own and coerce the labor of others, the large plantations—and perhaps much of the tobacco and later the cotton culture—would not have pervaded the South.
“We have indicated above that there was only one possible moral solution for the slave question: immediate and unconditional abolition, with no compensation to the slavemasters. Indeed, any compensation should have been the other way—to repay the oppressed slaves for their lifetime of slavery. A vital part of such necessary compensation would have been to grant the plantation lands not to the slavemaster, who scarcely had valid title to any property, but to the slaves themselves, whose labor, on our “homesteading” principle, was mixed with the soil to develop the plantations. In short, at the very least, elementary libertarian justice required not only the immediate freeing of the slaves, but also the immediate turning over to the slaves, again without compensation to the masters, of the plantation lands on which they had worked and sweated. As it was, the victorious North made the same mistake—though “mistake” is far too charitable a word for an act that preserved the essence of an unjust and oppressive social system—as had Czar Alexander when he freed the Russian serfs in 1861: the bodies of the oppressed were freed, but the property which they had worked and eminently deserved to own, remained in the hands of their former oppressors. With the economic power thus remaining in their hands, the former lords soon found themselves virtual masters once more of what were now free tenants or farm laborers. The serfs and the slaves had tasted freedom, but had been cruelly deprived of its fruits.”
It is a moral issue. For reparations to be effective today it would require an economic solution. As the article pointed out gaining a home and retaining it for future generations was something white supremacy wouldn’t allow. Abolishing the property tax as well as the federal income tax for American blacks who make less then $250,000 a year would incentivize black home ownership. Corporate tax credits for black owned business and industry would help create structural economic resilience within black communities. Low interest reparation loans through banks intended for start ups would stimulate the locale economy better then writing checks. The idea is get white supremacy out of the way and let black people figure it out. That’s what being free means.
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@ Abagond
I was asking what you would want.
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Michael jon barker writes:
As the article pointed out gaining a home and retaining it for future generations was something white supremacy wouldn’t allow.
As Coates failed to point out, banking and mortgage-making went through a profound change in 1977 — the secondary market for mortgages was created, thereby ending the rational for redlining.
Abolishing the property tax as well as the federal income tax for American blacks who make less then $250,000 a year would incentivize black home ownership.
Wow. Discriminating on the basis of race. I thought the goal was equality and non-discrimination?
Corporate tax credits for black owned business and industry would help create structural economic resilience within black communities.
Aha. The foregoing suggests the writer believes business success is determined by how much the government skews the market. As should be obvious, the solar and wind industries benefit from massive tax credits, yet both are economic failures.
Low interest reparation loans through banks intended for start ups would stimulate the locale economy better then writing checks.
Obviously, these loans would become bundled into a Wall Street product, not that there’s anything wrong with that. However, as always with business start-ups, there’s a high failure rate. How would these loans be collateralized? I suppose the idea is to have tax-payers collateralize them. A de facto FDIC for loans to blacks, which would result in massive loan origination to exploit this huge, huge opportunity — loophole — for a risk-free profit.
By the way, there are no “banks” intended for start-ups, unless you mean investment banks.
The idea is get white supremacy out of the way and let black people figure it out. That’s what being free means.
If getting “white supremacy out of the way” is the goal, this won’t do it. This idea is no different that giving black applicants to Ivy League schools 200 bonus points on their SATs.
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@sb anyone who calls ‘sub-prime’ lending the ‘secondary mortgage market’ wow dude…you have not one iota of a clue
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Matari:
Actually, I answered your “dishonest grandfather” question quite directly, and I believe accurately. Perhaps you may wish to consider why you replied with an emotional response rather than a logical one.
See here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg
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v8driver,
The secondary market for mortgages is the EXCHANGE market for all mortgages. It did not exist before 1977.
Till that point, when a bank issued a mortgage, it had no choice but hold that mortgage until either the house it financed was sold or the borrower paid off the loan, which was virtually always a 30-year loan.
Thus, it’s you who is totally unfamiliar with the nature of credit markets, and you who doesn’t understand the Sub-Prime market, which has been a standard part of the lending world for as long as there’s been lending.
In case you didn’t know, there were companies such as Beneficial Finance and Home Finance, that were making home equity loans and second mortgages for cash-strapped borrowers since WWII. There were others, but those two were well known.
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As far as I know certainly some portion of slave capture was trade…
It [the getting of slaves] was a massive and organized undertaking. Of course Africans sold captives to Europeans to be slaves. I was being coy when I said “some portion”.
This leads to a question: Should reparations also be sought from those Africans who did sell off other Africans?
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“sb32199 to Michael jon barker
Low interest reparation loans through banks intended for start ups would stimulate the locale economy better then writing checks.
Obviously, these loans would become bundled into a Wall Street product, not that there’s anything wrong with that. However, as always with business start-ups, there’s a high failure rate. How would these loans be collateralized? I suppose the idea is to have tax-payers collateralize them. A de facto FDIC for loans to blacks, which would result in massive loan origination to exploit this huge, huge opportunity — loophole — for a risk-free profit.”
Linda says,
Woww… you make a ridiculous statement like this, then you have the Nerve to tell V8driver that he is unfamiliar with the mortgages and finance…
why in the h’ll would reparations be bundled into a “Wall Street” product — you do realize that Wall Street got involved because they were buying cheap “mortgage” loan instruments that were bundled and sold on the secondary market… mortgage loans that were secured by Real Estate property, not cash
these so-called “reparations” loans would not be mortgage loans…
they would be consumer loans or business loans that are unsecured because why in the world would the government demand that the recipients secure these loans with property they own, when these reparation loans are being offered as “settlements” in the first place
since when do financial investors on Wall Street buy non-collateralized consumer or business loans on a secondary market?
and the FDIC does not “collateralize” anything … they insure bank cash deposits if the Banks fail — the Banks are responsible for securing cash deposits by using their collateral or assets in order to operate…
if a business fails and a personal/business loan defaults, then the bank can sell these loans to collection agencies that buy these type of loans for pennies on the dollar and the bank keeps it moving…
in your desire to appear intelligent, you are saying some really false and ignorant things.
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@Legion
Of course they; should every nation that was involved in the slave trade should be involved in the reparations, every race, creed and color.
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Linda,
since when do financial investors on Wall Street buy non-collateralized consumer or business loans on a secondary market?
What do you think credit card debt is? It’s non-collateralized consumer loans. How about commercial paper? Not collateralized. Corporate debentures?
Regarding “business loans,” there’s a whole big old market for trading them
There’s a secondary market for virtually all loans.
Obviously you have no experience in the financial world. It does not operate as you seem to imagine.
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sb32199,
What do you think credit card debt is? It’s non-collateralized consumer loans. How about commercial paper? Not collateralized. Corporate debentures?
Regarding “business loans,” there’s a whole big old market for trading them
There’s a secondary market for virtually all loans.
Linda says,
yes brainless wonder, that secondary market for unsecured loans is called:
the COLLECTION/DEBT COLLECTION market
credit cards are “revolving debt” and they are considered part of consumer loans, which get sold to collection agencies…
because that’s what they specialize in
the same way student loans are sold to other lenders and organizations in a secondary market made up of state and private education organizations that specialize in buying and servicing student loans
Consumer debt and business loans have NOTHING to do with Wall Street…so, your statement about reparation loans becoming “Wall Street” products still remains stoopid
Consumer debt was not what tanked Wallstreet, brain-wonder, it was those itty-bitty mortgage instruments that they bought sight unseen…
you are full of sh’t … it’s obvious to anyone who can read that you are the one who is clueless about the financial world… don’t get mad at me because I called you out
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and by the way,
Corporate debentures are one of the only “unsecured” loans that Wall Street even deals with because they are issued like bonds
only Large corporations (like General Electric) and governments issue debentures (ie government bonds), usually in millions of dollars to raise money because they issue a certificate and they are long term and get rated
so what does this have to do with consumers loans?? or small business loans? — nothing… not even in the same bloody room much less category
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Linda,
Your posts read as though you’ve been instructed by the least aware people in the Occupy Wall Street brigade.
Rather than engage in name-calling, you should look into such topics as credit-card receivables and the securities backed by them. There is a secondary market that exists for bundles of those securities.
You have shown you don’t know the difference between a secondary market and the process of liquidation.
As for student loans, you’ve revealed you don’t know the purpose of Sallie Mae, which makes it evident you don’t understand the secondary market for those securities.
As for you comments about “consumer loans” and “business loans” vs your ideas about “reparations loans”, they show a total absence of understanding of how credit and credit markets work.
It is an absolute certainty, that any class of security — equity or credit, hard asset, secured, unsecured, what-have-you — will become the basis for bundled securities created by Wall Street.
Wall Street creates securities and markets for classes of securities virtually out of thin air. In fact, there is even trading in carbon credits, which are credits based on air quality.
Meanwhile, the FDIC insures bank accounts. Insurance IS collateral.
Furthermore, mortgages ARE consumer loans, though it appears this is news to you.
Government bonds are not debentures. A debenture is debt issued without collateral and bought by investors who have faith in the issuer. A government has the power of taxation. The power of taxation is the collateral.
A government — the US government — will not stiff the buyers of its debt. A corporate issuer has only the cash-flow of the business as a source for repaying loans. Sometimes the cash flow isn’t enough and the company heads into bankruptcy.
As always, there’s a market for securities of bankrupt companies — the distressed debt market — and it’s been a good market good for a long time.
Your best bet is to read the Wall Street Journal.
If you reach the point where you can read all the financial pages in the Journal with full understanding, you will then realize your current beliefs about debt and debt markets are amusingly uninformed.
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The mindset of most whites: they view racism as acts and attitudes of their great, great grandparents, great grandparents and will even allow and attribute it to grandparents.
I’m now TOTALLY convinced that white people’s mindset is mired and operates in a three to four generational deficit and forever will be bring up the rear on issues of race and white skin privilege. What I’m getting from most of the white commenters here is: “my, (meaning theirs) contemporary existence is nothing akin to those of my ancestors of three to four generations ago,” therefore, all us, black/white and other peoples of colour, now exist in the state of Nirvana.”
Take Randy for example, HE WOULD HAVE US ALL BELIEVE THAT HIS MINDSET ON RACE AND RELATIONS, ISN’T PREDICATED ON THE BELIEFS OF HIS OR HIS GREAT AND GRANDPARENTS GENERATIONS. It may, or may not be obvious to him, but this is culture; it seeps or cascades into the next generation without one even knowing it. Does he really believe that his mindset on race and racism will not be adopted by his son(s)/daughter(s)? – That his offspring will not engender those beliefs, possibly less fervently dogmatic than him (Randy) with the evolving of the culture? For us to progress, we have to look to or at the past.
The quote: “The PAST IS NEVER THE PAST; IT’S NOT EVEN THE PAST; culturally, we must, or ought to, take a look at the past for ameliorative solutions of the here and now, especially when deliberating these issues.
I can assure you, Randy great grandkids will be HORRIFIED at what his thoughts and beliefs are – should they read what he has written over the years on this blog – his grandkids, possibly less so.
Reparation will be paid – not in my, or possibly grandkids’ generations, but some time beyond. It took more than two hundred and fifty year to have the institution of chattel slavery abolished from its nascent beginnings. There were white men in the heady days of slavery, who would consider its demise, preposterous. “IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN, THEY ARGUED, IT IS TOO ENTRENCHED IN THE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL FABRIC OF THE AMERICAS.”
I wish Randy and George R. would keep that at the back of their brain when commenting on this and other issues.
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“sb32199,
Rather than engage in name-calling, you should look into such topics as credit-card receivables and the securities backed by them. There is a secondary market that exists for bundles of those securities.
You have shown you don’t know the difference between a secondary market and the process of liquidation.
As for student loans, you’ve revealed you don’t know the purpose of Sallie Mae, which makes it evident you don’t understand the secondary market for those securities.”
Linda says,
Jesus Christ, you really are a piece of work, sb32199… do you really think throwing out names and financial terms means that I can’t see through your BS
No sb, my posts read like I know what I’m talking about because I make sense, unlike you — anyone who can read, can see I obviously know more than you…Any one who is in the real estate or banking industry knows that you grasping for straws
All you’ve done is show that you can learn new words and spit them out in your ridiculous attempt to sound intelligent.
thank God for Google or you would never learn enough to respond to me
you need to take your own advise about reading the Wall Street Journal, so that you can stop using the Internet to learn “on the go”
Your comments does not make you look intelligent, and your previous comment that you made STILL makes no sense:
“Obviously, these loans would become bundled into a Wall Street product, not that there’s anything wrong with that. However, as always with business start-ups, there’s a high failure rate. How would these loans be collateralized? I suppose the idea is to have tax-payers collateralize them. A de facto FDIC for loans to blacks, which would result in massive loan origination to exploit this huge, huge opportunity — loophole — for a risk-free profit.”
why don’t you try backing up your statement because that is the statement I am addressing.
I asked you to show “how unsecured, non-collateralized personal/ business reparation loans, handed out as a form of settlement money, would be structured so that they would be bundled and traded on Wall Street” …. give me DETAILS if you know how.
start from the US treasury to conventional bank origination (from “qualifying” criteria for each recipient to amortization) — then try to put together a scenario where this “unsecured” consumer loan, that is NOT in default, would be sold on the secondary market so that it would reach Wall Street.
I’m not interested in the pissing contest you are trying to have with me to see who can use the most “financial terms” in 1 sentence.
stop hopping around the issue… back your sh’t up or get off the pot
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@ Ubuntu: Always great commentary. That was great.
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Awesome comment by Ubuntu!
Is anybody surprised by the repeat rebuttal of sb32199? I have never seen anyone try and dispute something with “You don’t know” as often as this individual has. Perhaps he believes telling people they don’t know something will make it appear as if he does or perhaps he enjoys entertaining us with jokes.
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Ubuntu,
The quote you’re looking for came from William Faulkner and it goes like this: “the past isn’t dead. It isn’t even past.”
Of course that was his take on the psychology of the South. In a sense his belief will hold true. The historical record of slavery will remain, and no one in this country will attempt to paint it as some kind of hoax. It won’t be forgotten. But neither will it remain an obsession forced into the thoughts of every citizen at every opportunity.
As for reparations, that’s never going to happen. There’s lots of reasons. But a chief reason is the nature of settlement deals. They’re final.
Thus, if some undefined body of non-black citizens were to agree to a one-time payment in settlement of past injustices, that agreement would stipulate that blacks would be barred from making additional slavery-related claims in the future.
There’s no chance that blacks will agree to accepting a single payment in exchange for never again seeking compensation from the country, whites, the government, the banks, etc., etc. to resolve some kind of claim of “racist” behavior.
The second reason it won’t happen is tied to the expectation of a free lunch — something that doesn’t exist. Any money handed over would go back into the economy and return to those from whom it was taken.
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Ubuntu,
Excellent comment.
A lot of white commenters that I’ve encountered definitely want to detach themselves from their past, theirs, their families and their people in regards to race and racism. Regardless, they don’t realize that what they think is what their parents, grandparents and ancestors thought back in the day.
For instance, some of them believe that the lives of black people are fine today. The thing is that’s what their parents have said, and what their grandparents have said, and so on. They seem to think that no matter what, black people are doing fine, no matter how oppressed they are by the very system that largely benefits and protects white people.
Another example is how certain white conservatives in this day and age said how slavery was a “good thing” for black people. That’s what a lot of white slave owners believed back then.
So, it’s ludicrous that anyone would think that the past has little or no effect on the present, especially if history repeats itself.
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sb32199,
Reparations should never be looked upon as a “free lunch”.
There’s a blogger, I won’t mention his name because he’s banned, but most people know whom I referring to, that constantly uses the word “free stuff” when talking about welfare. He states that this nation, specifically whites, have poured trillions of dollars to help blacks. Yet, it was never fully explained.
As researched, it turns out he is wrong. There was no massive program to help black people, let alone make up for the crimes of oppression, at least none that I heard of of such magnitude.
In fact, only a few years ago, the U.S. government apologized for slavery, but it was empty. There was no work done to make up for it on any level, nor was there much incentive to have so much as a national conversation on racism in general. After that apology, black people are still faced with systematic oppression.
Reparations are not giving something for nothing. Black people have dealt with not only slavery, which is still doing on behind the walls of the prison industrial complex, but all forms of oppression and discrimination thereafter that’s still going on as you read this comment. Not only must it cease, but there must be ways in which it never happens again for everyone’s sake.
At least, that’s how I see it.
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Brothawolf,
The “free lunch” is what supporters of reparations believe they will receive. However, no such meal is in the cards. Moreover, we know without a doubt that following a massive hand-over of cash, every pathology plaguing black America today would continue unabated. Some problems would undoubtedly worsen.
Once it was understood that the monetary settlement did little or nothing to improve the lot of black Americans, there would be clamoring for more. It wasn’t enough, the critics would say.
However, handing over the funds would require an acknowledgement that acceptance of the payment would settle all debts and obligations tied to slavery. After receiving the money, no more special treatment would follow.
Coates raises this issue when he mentions Jews receiving reparations from Germany. Don’t take the money, said some Jewish leaders, because it lets the perpetrators off the hook.
Of course, no slave owners, no children of slave owners, and no grandchildren of slave owners are alive today. Therefore, no living American has any connection to slavery, no matter what you happen to believe. There is no individual guilt about slavery. People’s feelings of horror may be provoked by the thought of slavery, but no one living today bears any guilt.
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sb32199
How can those who support reparations believe they’re getting a “free lunch”? And what exactly makes it ‘free’ to begin with?
What you call “pathologies” that black America faces are the same pathologies ALL of America faces. We do not own the rights or patents to problems and issues going on in black communities, especially when it comes to violence as we’re recently reminded in Santa Barbara.
I haven’t read Coates’ entire article, but I doubt it’s as simple as mere monetary settlements. How about economic, social and political uplift and empowerment. I believe doing so will help this nation more than hurt it.
What special treatment are you referring to?
As far as the part about Jews go, it’s not as simple as what’s going on here. At least from the way I see it.
Lastly, sure, no one today has been alive back then during slavery days. That’s not the point I was making. I was talking about that AND other forms of oppression that came later and the systematic racism that goes on today. If anyone feels any guilt, to be frank, it’s on them. And honestly, and again, forgive me for sound cruel, but I don’t care if there is any guilt, especially if this society goes into overtime making us feel guilty for simply being black.
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@sb i stand corrected.
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sb32199
“The quote you’re looking for came from William Faulkner and it goes like this: “the past isn’t dead. It isn’t even past.””
I don’t know what is more funny. The fact that you attempted to correct someone to begin with or the fact that you corrected someone and managed to say the quote wrong yourself.
The quote goes: The past is never dead. It’s not even past.
I provided a link so you can correct yourself below or not.
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/12124-the-past-is-never-dead-it-s-not-even-past
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v8driver
unless you stand corrected on him having an ounce of since then I am not sure what you could possible stand corrected on.
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@ Legion
Probably something along the lines of the G.I. Bill, the present-day counterpart to “forty acres and a mule”. But, as Coates implies, it would have to come on top of reforms that would make sure Blacks would not be scammed or otherwise be kept out of the middle class. The game has to become unrigged, the Bootstrap Myth made reasonably real for everyone regardless of race or class.
Racial Monopoly is a useful way to think about it:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/12/07/if-america-were-a-game-of-monopoly/
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@ Randy
Read the whole article: the stuff still goes on. YOUR belief in the Bootstrap Myth makes me wonder about your intelligence.
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@ Abagond
Thank you, I wish I had asked you before but now I know.
————————–
But, as Coates implies, it would have to come on top of reforms that would make sure Blacks would not be scammed or otherwise be kept out of the middle class. The game has to become unrigged
I feel like responding but in a hurry. I hope I make sense.
The racial aspect of things in the States is not a game, not at all. It is scary. I don’t remember which thread it is now but perhaps you recall the incident I related about zealous and racist security accusing me of theft one time when I was visiting NY. The way they did it, like I was nothing. And if the police had come…
I watched some Michelle Alexander material today. Mary mentions up thread that reparations might spark a race war. Consider: if blacks make up 40% of all incarcerated Americans then is it not sound to conclude that some form of race war started right under everyone’s noses? Scary.
Because the institutional racism (not just criminal justice system, but all over the place. recall underfunding for black medical professionals when those in charge of funding suspect that an applicant is black!) is so profound and pervasive it seems (to me) that going for straight institutional overhaul is the wise course and the urgent course. Gotta be careful with reforms, the opponent waits a little until conditions favour him and he just undoes your reforms with no one noticing.
Enough history has passed now to know that the establishment (it’s no good just calling these people “whites” look at Obama. Also, you think Herman Caine would’ve had your back? Of course not. Politicians serve the masters discussed in the rented negro thread.) will just work to destroy reforms that are made. The challenges are very, very serious.
Anyway, enough ramble from me. I’ll look for the material I was viewing and post it, in case it’s of interest to you and others.
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(http://youtu.be/2g4hCn8srvI)
^ It would have been strange to ask for reparations during slavery. What one would ask for is to end the institution. Similarly, since the attack on blacks (especially poor blacks and youth) is still on, asking for reparations is like pretending their is no current attack, the institutions should be fundamentally altered instead. It seems more urgent to do that.
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@sharina my knowledege of the ‘secondary mortgage markets’ which is what indirectly led to the bank bailout since the collaterization of mortgage debt as ‘assets’ from the banks’ perspective caused the financial meltdown as the ‘assigned value’ of such ‘assets’ evaporated with the collapse of the housing market and the amout of house repossessions increased
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http://newsone.com/3012856/did-you-know-us-govt-paid-reparations-to-slave-owners/
“Did You Know: US Gov’t Paid Reparations…To Slave Owners”
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@ Legion
Both Coates and I assume that if the country ever got to the stage of giving reparations, it would have a very different mindset, one that would bring the needed changes to society. That, and not any actual money given to Blacks, would be the true value of reparations.
I do not go for the race war argument for one nanosecond. It was used by Whites to defend both slavery and Jim Crow.
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“I do not go for the race war argument for one nanosecond. It was used by Whites to defend both slavery and Jim Crow.”
***********
Abagond,
Like the the definition of “racist” – “race war” – is hinged on one’s personal perspective/opinion. Mine is that the race war began circa 1600 when Africans were kidnapped, brought here, and elsewhere, in chains and made to work for free. The two sides have been at war ever since.
The propaganda machine would have us all believe that WAR should only be viewed a certain way (in the context of bombs, guns, gas, missiles, govt soldiers, etc) – the way IT wants you to see it. Even the threat of violence is an act of WAR.
Whiteness has always been about NOT SEEING what you’re looking at… hiding things in plain sight by language, and controlling the way one thinks. It’s indeed a very sophisticated way, “used by Whites to defend” more than we give them credit for.
.
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matari writes:
Whiteness has always been about NOT SEEING what you’re looking at… hiding things in plain sight by language, and controlling the way one thinks.
Or, to put it another way, blackness is about SEEING what isn’t there. It’s about pretending a specific part of the past controls the present and therefore controls the future. It’s all about ghosts and the supernatural.
It’s indeed a very sophisticated way, “used by Whites to defend” more than we give them credit for.
It’s a very simple way, used by blacks to exploit the willingness of whites to allow themselves to be guilted into giving away far more than is necessary to set things right.
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Brothawolf:
What you call “pathologies” that black America faces are the same pathologies ALL of America faces.
Half true. By every measure, social pathologies are more prevalent and more detrimental in black communities than non-black communities.
We do not own the rights or patents to problems and issues going on in black communities, especially when it comes to violence as we’re recently reminded in Santa Barbara.
When it comes to homicide, the one classification of this crime where whites hold the lead is the kind we saw in Santa Barbara. But if you add up all the killings in this class, the total is insignificant when measured against the total number of homicides over any period.
Let’s put it this way. If, instead of murder averages, we were talking about baseball batting averages, whites would be batting .100 and blacks would be batting .900. The difference is so extreme that it’s mind-boggling.
Are you suggesting that some kind of reparations payment or settlement would reduce the violence within the black community?
In fact, homicide rates have declined a lot over the last 20 years, and the decline occurred without any expectation of reparations.
How would blacks change if a reparations settlement were reached?
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Cutting a check for every black person descended from slaves isn’t going to do anything except waste money and give a symbolic gesture.
Instead of passing out checks, why don’t we tackle the inequalities that blacks face in America today, as reparations?
For example:
-Re integrate the schools that have been de-facto segregated since busing stopped. Start busing students again.
-Force the hands of states that refuse to expand medicaid and help the lowest income citizens, many of whom are black.
-End mandatory sentencing laws for drug-related arrests which are designed to target Black Americans.
-End the death penalty, which disproportionately affects Black Americans
These simple steps would go a long way to right the wrong that 250 years of slavery and a continued oppression has done to Black Americans, rather than just cutting a check.
Unfortunately our government is unlikely to do either.
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sb32199,
Half true. By every measure, social pathologies are more prevalent and more detrimental in black communities than non-black communities.
And you know this how, through right wing websites, through the news or both?
When it comes to homicide, the one classification of this crime where whites hold the lead is the kind we saw in Santa Barbara. But if you add up all the killings in this class, the total is insignificant when measured against the total number of homicides over any period.
I almost missed the part where you called the total number killings of this class insignificant. There’s the moral fallacy in your argument.
Let’s put it this way. If, instead of murder averages, we were talking about baseball batting averages, whites would be batting .100 and blacks would be batting .900. The difference is so extreme that it’s mind-boggling.
Again, according to what?
Are you suggesting that some kind of reparations payment or settlement would reduce the violence within the black community?
I’m saying that resources, including but not exclusive to money, brain power, hard work and an extreme moral makeover must be put into taking apart systemic racism
In fact, homicide rates have declined a lot over the last 20 years, and the decline occurred without any expectation of reparations.
It’s not all about homicides. It’s also about health, mental and physical, financial equality, a justice for all that is indeed fair, environmental issues, etc.
How would blacks change if a reparations settlement were reached?
I can’t speak for all black people. So, I don’t know. In the end, and sometimes I forget myself, to each his own. It all depends on the individual.
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@ sb32199
Thanks for providing me with the quote by William Faulkner.
Mine is an exact quote from another author and he too referenced William Faulkner as his source, therefore, my quote stands.
I will however, not respond to the legitimacy of my quote, should you be so inclined, as I’ve discovered too, too many times, most whites tend to infuse extraneous elements into discussions on race, white skin privilege, the cultural legacy of chattel slavery, institutional racism, white supremacy, and by so doing, distract from any meaningful discussion on the subjects that adversely affect the lives of people of colour. In this instance, I’ll refuse, if that’s your intention, that I countenance you running headlong into a discussion about a quote, or that I would be listened to, had I not been wearing my cap with the peak turn to the side – not saying you said it. – (I don’t wear my cap with peak to the side). That’s how insane most white are when discussing racism. – any and everything is used to detract from it). I believe both quotes connote and support the point I was trying to make.
“It won’t be forgotten. But neither will it remain an obsession forced into the thoughts of every citizen at every opportunity.”
When do you think we should cease discussing these issues? How is what is being discussed affects you? Reparation aside, your mindset is of a person who lags, not three to four generations, but six or seven, as far race and racism is concerned. When slavery ended and Jim Crow was repealed nearly a hundred years later, do you believe that every living soul died off in the America, thus making extinct cultures: white black and in between? No, they did not, and if they did not die off, the cultures lives on, maybe in a little less concentrated form than decades earlier.
We are human beings, we create and foster culture; it’s the manifestation of our existence. Whites still maintain a culture of hate and disgust for black people. Do you think it sprang out of thin air? It’s a culture that was created by Europeans in the Americas – North and South and other shores on which they landed; In the United States, the founding fathers exhorted the great scientific minds of their days: (paraphrasing) – we hold these things to be self-evident that the Negro is an inferior race; now go out and CREATE/MANUFACTURE the science to substantiate it, thus turning science on its head. A culture was created based on those tenets and it’s still affecting both black/POC and white people today. You seem to think that slavery and Jim Crow are in a 3000 year old reliquary somewhere, possibly in outer space; and if discussing these issues hurt your sensibilities, by all means, cease discussing/listening.
It’s the “rope analogy,” where whites, on seeing a bit of rope, decide that they could use it, but are horrified that as they pull it the other end keeps coming toward them as well – the portion with the excrement and all manner of unsavory malodorous elements from the slavery and Jim Crow era and cultural legacies they left to all of us.
@ Matari
“More important, to me anyway, is that the USA PAYS SOMETHING – A JUST PAYOUT. What does a JUST payout look like? That’s for the smarter than me, savvy folks (union reps) to work out.”
Like you Matari, I have no notion of what this should involve; I too have very poor or non-existent actuarial skills.
I still owe you a response from many months ago – don’t even remember the topic, but will look it up and respond to you.
@ Mary Burrell,
Thanks! I hope my latest post wasn’t over the top.
@ Brotherwolf
Thanks!
For the life of me, I cannot fathom why so many whites are so oblivious to America’s cultural legacies of white supremacy or the same spawned by them (whites in general) in countries throughout the world, whether they’re in a minority or a majority situation in those countries. We cannot change colour of our skin, but we sure as heck can change the culture, and them being defensive when these issues are raised, should not be their point of departure.
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This is kinda old, but…
https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/the-sideshow/switzerland-to-vote-on–2-800-monthly-%E2%80%98basic-income%E2%80%99-minimum-for-adults-181937885.html
“More than 100,000 residents in Switzerland have signed a petition demanding that the government ensure a minimum monthly income of nearly $2,800 (2,500 Swiss francs) for all adults in the country.
The 120,000 signatures are enough to formally call a vote in the government over whether or not to approve the “CHF 2,500 monthly for everyone” (Grundeinkommen)” funding proposal.”
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Ubuntu:
When my poor peasant grandparents arrived in this country from Italy, they moved into an Italian neighborhood because, as I’ve been told, the Irish didn’t want Italians to live in theirs. I doubt my grandfather came across many black people at the time, but having had a strong religious morality, probably would have considered them brothers and sisters.
Ubuntu:
Treating people with dignity and respect, and trying to use reason to understand and discuss complex issues doesn’t strike me as fertile ground for generational “horror”, but you never do know.
As far as my future generations’ interest in reparations, what about also for their enslaved Irish ancestors and my wife’s people who bore the burden of hundreds of years of colonization? Might their concerns be broader than your particular advocacy here?
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Ubuntu,
For the life of me, I cannot fathom why so many whites are so oblivious to America’s cultural legacies of white supremacy or the same spawned by them (whites in general) in countries throughout the world, whether they’re in a minority or a majority situation in those countries. We cannot change colour of our skin, but we sure as heck can change the culture, and them being defensive when these issues are raised, should not be their point of departure
I guess that’s the genius of white supremacy and white privilege. A lot of white people appear not to be able to grasp the simplicity of it even when it’s right in front of their face. It’s like purposely running a stop light. And when they’re stopped by police, they don’t know why they’re being pulled over even when the cop tells them what they didn’t do. Not to mention they would argue with the police about being pulled over or given a ticket.
I dunno if white people truly can’t see white privilege or if some of them are putting up a front. But in the end, they are defending their ways of life and their views and opinions of the world because that’s all they know. And I think many are too scared to give up what they’ve known all their lives or learn something new that’s not so comfortable but necessary. It’s like not wanting to take medicine that’s bitter even though it could help them. Sure, the bitterness stays for a while, but soon your health is improved.
White privilege and white supremacy prevents white people from being human. At the end of the day, it won’t do them much good. If they would stop and take a good long look at themselves and reality and what white supremacy has done to not only everyone else but themselves as well, they would see that it’s more trouble than they thought and get rid of it. But when it comes to some, especially those on the right and some of the left, they prefer to live in their shrinking, suffocating bubbles then step out because they feel terribly threatened by change.
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“I still owe you a response from many months ago – don’t even remember the topic, but will look it up and respond to you.”
*********
Ubuntu! : ))
I remember asking you a question, and I recall you saying that you’ll get back to me after you feel better,… but I don’t remember in the slightest the question I asked you either. Well …maybe the slightest… was it a sort of philosophical question like, :”How would you do such and such …?” Whatever it was I don’t believe it’s worth your time to try to go back and find it, though… unless you have certain instructions to do so. : ))
*
*
*
V8 Driver,
““More than 100,000 residents in Switzerland have signed a petition demanding that the government ensure a minimum monthly income of nearly $2,800 (2,500 Swiss francs) for all adults in the country.”
************
And that’s not even for reparations!!! LOL I think it’s just for GP, General Principle.
Perhaps this request is due to an overabundance of SWISS timepieces.
They must not have bootstraps over there in the Alps… maybe they just have laces or strings.
Rush Limbaugh, Fox News and the Tea Party might suspect these 120,000 Swiss petitioners of being ‘undercover’ LAZY Negroes passing for white people!
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@ Randy
Ubuntu did not say it was your manner that would horrify them, but your thoughts and beliefs.
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@ Randy
Brothawolf says:
What are your thoughts on this?
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Brothawolf, I asked:
“How would blacks change if a reparations settlement were reached?”
You responded:
I can’t speak for all black people. So, I don’t know. In the end, and sometimes I forget myself, to each his own. It all depends on the individual.
Therefore, in your view, nothing much would change. The future of blacks would include the same high crime rates (as reported by city police records and the FBI crime statistics), the same low academic achievement, the same pattern of social pathologies, including, fatherlessness, substance abuse, and griping for more money from taxpayers.
So, the subtext of your post comes to down to admitting that a reparations payment would be a big waste of money.
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@ sb32199
Are you racist?
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Ubuntu,
You’re a funny guy, putting all those flashes of high-sounding writing in your post. Unfortunately, they don’t obscure the content.
We are human beings, we create and foster culture; it’s the manifestation of our existence. Whites still maintain a culture of hate and disgust for black people.
The essential problem with your imagination is its tendency toward solipsism. News flash, whites don’t spend time and energy obsessing about blacks. Even though Obama is president, the constant racial reminder leads to very few anti-black commentaries.
Of course there are plenty of anti-Obama commentaries, and there will a lot more due to his act of freeing Islamic terrorists from Guantanamo in exchange for a soldier who appears to have deserted. But the attacks on him are about policies and practices. Incompetence. Orthodoxy. Hidebound ideology. Not race.
So the issue of your solipsism comes into play. Why? When you mention culture, it’s clear you’re exposing the views of your own culture — black culture — and transferring those views to whites and white culture.
On one hand you say it baffles you that whites don’t see “white privilege” when it’s plain as day to you. But if it were to exist, then it must be part of the “white culture of hate and disgust for blacks.”
However, if it were part of white culture, then plenty of whites would express it. They’d grumble and say, “if it weren’t for those blacks, my mortgage payment would be less.”
Or, “If it weren’t for blacks, my kids would do better in school.” Or, “If it weren’t for blacks, gasoline would cost less.”
But I’ve never heard whites make such statements. Nothing even close. On the other hand, the tirade from blacks about the ways in which life impinges on them frequently includes some kind of reference to blaming whites. As though we’re all George Bush. Blaming whites seems to be a reflex, a reflex that looks as though it’s turning into a muscle cramp.
Like the Islamic world, it appears the black world is incapable of looking inward to examine the possibility that a lot of issues attributed to evil whites and their evil white privilege are a reflection of the problems within blacks and black culture.
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abagond,
Obviously you’ll decide whatever you want to decide based on whatever you choose to believe. The other guy is generally what you want him to be.
In my view, way too many blacks are woefully misinformed about virtually everything. Whites are too, though often enough being misinformed is relatively harmless. But when it comes to economics, finance, science and engineering, and who does what in the world, it starts to matter.
Outside of Thomas Sowell, there are virtually no black leaders who present a clear understanding of economics and finance.
Meanwhile, there appears to be an obsession among blacks at this site with history that no longer matters. Quibbles over who developed algebra, as if this nonsense matters, when, in fact, there’s a real problem with people living today in this country who can’t grasp the subject, algebra and other technical subjects.
Why, I wonder, with the big deficit in science and mathematical knowledge among blacks, is this shortfall not occasionally a subject of discussion?
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@ sb
You did not answer the question. Are you racist?
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Sb32199
“Meanwhile, there appears to be an obsession among blacks at this site with history that no longer matters.”—–if I am not mistaken, and I can quote it, you brought up a lot of historical information that you thought favored your view, but when it did. It you were not happy. I wonder why this history no longer matters now when it was the forefront of one of your arguments not that long ago.
@others
Whites (that i have seen on this blog) only support or listen to Thomas Sowell because he tells them what they want to hear. Yet all those others blacks that tell both whites and blacks somethings not to either likings are virtually ignored by whites. I think Thomas Sowell is more of the “see I do agree with some blacks.” The I am not racist proof card that some like to pull out.
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abagond, no matter how I define the word, and where I stand, you’ll define it for yourself, in your own way, and make your judgment about me.
Instead, why don’t you tell me what you think, and tell me why. The “why” is the important part.
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@abagond
S32199 may actually be xprae. I elaborate on my belief later but same argument reworded.
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Sharina, how about naming another black economist, hopefully someone who’s alive, and tell me about his views and why they make sense to you.
Or, name a white economist with views you agree with…
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Sb
“News flash, whites don’t spend time and energy obsessing about blacks. Even though Obama is president, the constant racial reminder leads to very few anti-black commentaries.”—considering there are websites dedicated to black hate etc. This statement is false. I will post links later. As for Obama I can post racial commentary for that as well and it’s media usage.
“Of course there are plenty of anti-Obama commentaries, and there will a lot more due to his act of freeing Islamic terrorists from Guantanamo in exchange for a soldier who appears to have deserted. But the attacks on him are about policies and practices. Incompetence. Orthodoxy. Hidebound ideology. Not race.”—-sorry no. While there are those whites that simply do it for policy there are still those that do it on the basis of race. I will provide that proof as well. Care to back up your claims for once?
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Sb32199
It is not about who I agree with or don’t now is it? My views or who I agree with is not going to change the fact that whites like you choose the go to Thomas for one sided reason. I am also not going to give you the open door to deflect so.
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Sharina, I gather you can’t name any living black economists other than Thomas Sowell. Okay, so that’s that.
As for your reference to anti-black websites run by whites, yeah, everything exists on the internet, but that’s not the same as everybody — whites — all riding on the same bandwagon.
If you’re measuring racism by websites, then you’d have to create a spreadsheet that tracks numbers of websites and traffic to each, then compare the results with anti-white websites run by blacks. Inasmuch as racial issues seem to account for a lot of black neurological activity, it’s pretty likely the results would go against your belief.
Meanwhile, one measure — away from websites and the internet — is real world violence. The likelihood of a white person becoming the victim of a violent crime committed by a black perpetrator is about 50 times higher than a white assaulting a black.
I’ll bet you don’t know a single black crime victim who was attacked by a white perpetrator.
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abagond:
I think his first possibility is probably most correct, for two reasons:
1. To the extent that members of a group would benefit from “group privilege”, it would seem to generally manifest as out-group “dys-privilege”. Thus the privileged might not be in a position to even notice it. They’d simply be treated as peers.
For example, a person who gets a job generally has little to no visibility into the other candidates who didn’t, so if group privilege were at work they’d have no idea.
2. It seems quite common to notice headwinds much more acutely than tailwinds.
We could probably compile a taxonomy of 100 or so types of “privilege”, and I doubt that most people have a conscious consideration or observation of these privileges on a regular basis. Teenagers are known to exhibit an exaggerated form of this behavior.
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sb32199
“Sharina, I gather you can’t name any living black economists other than Thomas Sowell. Okay, so that’s that.”— I can but it is also not my duty to provide one as this is only a ploy on your part to direct things at me rather than address the weak holes in your argument.
“As for your reference to anti-black websites run by whites, yeah, everything exists on the internet, but that’s not the same as everybody — whites — all riding on the same bandwagon.”—I never said anything about ALL whites or whites being in that same boat. What I did say (and you are not addressing) is “considering there are websites dedicated to black hate etc. This statement is false.” And this was in response you your belief that you know what all whites do and tI shall quote “News flash, whites don’t spend time and energy obsessing about blacks.” Apparently there are those that do as websites would be pointless other wise correct?
“If you’re measuring racism by websites, then you’d have to create a spreadsheet that tracks numbers of websites and traffic to each, then compare the results with anti-white websites run by blacks. Inasmuch as racial issues seem to account for a lot of black neurological activity, it’s pretty likely the results would go against your belief.”—-Is this the conclusion you came to? I wonder how as I have not stated my belief on racism or any other matter dealing with the issue. So basically you have decided for me what I believe and this is just another notch in your intellectually dishonest belt.
“Meanwhile, one measure — away from websites and the internet — is real world violence. The likelihood of a white person becoming the victim of a violent crime committed by a black perpetrator is about 50 times higher than a white assaulting a black.”—-This has to do with what exactly? People attack people for all types of crap and racism is not always it. Though you are free to speculate.
“I’ll bet you don’t know a single black crime victim who was attacked by a white perpetrator.”—Actually I do. I have shared this personal experience many times on this very blog. You might get by in debates by assuming with others but that works very little here. You focus should be on the argument not on the individual personally.
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Darn the typos.
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Daniel Bryant
I actually have to agree with your post. Money would not be a good choice or the best choice. There needs to be long term results and a solution needs to be made that will provide a long term solution.
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sb32199,
“Meanwhile, one measure — away from websites and the internet — is real world violence. The likelihood of a white person becoming the victim of a violent crime committed by a black perpetrator is about 50 times higher than a white assaulting a black.
I’ll bet you don’t know a single black crime victim who was attacked by a white perpetrator.”
Oh Gawd not this diversionary nonsense again. You “race realist” types are truly pathological few trick ponies. As usual in this case, it’s ignoring the routine for the exception in order to race bait.
The likelihood of a white person becoming the victim of a violent crime committed by a black perpetrator is very much less than a white person being victimized by another white person. And that make sense as most crimes are intraracial rather than interracial.
Btw, are you including white perpetrators in cop uniforms in your question? Anyway, I know several black crime victims who were assaulted by white perpetrators. When I was growing up in NYC getting chased, harrased and/or jumped by gangs of Italian or Irish kids was practically a rite of passage.
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Sharina,
“I actually have to agree with your post. Money would not be a good choice or the best choice. There needs to be long term results and a solution needs to be made that will provide a long term solution.”
I see what you are saying but, imo, there’s no reason why it can’t be both? You can pay people like Ross AND do the long term structural thing too.
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@ sb
You STILL did not answer the question. I already know what I think. I want to hear what YOU have to say. Are you racist?
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The sheer amount of trolling, derailment, deflection, distraction, derision, bs and lying taking place here by a certain snake boy is incredible… off da hook!
Maybe the serpent would go back into the hole it slithered out of, if …..
Arguing with a rock would be much more sensible. At least rocks don’t tell outrageous lies.
Having done it myself, I do understand why some of us simply can’t refuse going to the Zoo and feeding these most pitiful of creatures.
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Sharina, okay, fine. Words like Always and Never have limited use. After a while I expect people to exercise their understanding of rates and imbalances and extremes, and realize that a couple of examples of something in a universe of hundreds of millions is virtually zero.
As for your claim about a white perpetrator, okay. How many? One? What was the crime? Knowing one person, having a connection to a single event, is evidence of a near-zero rate.
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abagond,
Are you racist?
Obviously not.
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ks:
Oh Gawd not this diversionary nonsense again. You “race realist” types are truly pathological few trick ponies. As usual in this case, it’s ignoring the routine for the exception in order to race bait.
Oh. Is that like the black focus on the one form of murder that whites perpetrate more than blacks — the kind of shooting that occurred in Santa Barbara last week? As I’m sure you know, the number of victims of this form of homicide is a mere rounding error in the US total.
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Sharina:
Daniel Bryant? He’s not an economist.
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abagond: Are you racist?
sb32199: Obviously not.
Linda says,
LOLLLLL, Ha ha OHhhhh my God…have they run out of Thorazine at your facility, sb32199…
not only are you a delusional racist… now we can add the title of “LIAR” to your many other annoying traits…you are the everyday working man’s definition of a racist
maybe I missed it but if you are so unbiased when it comes to race, what negative things have you said about white people on this blog? (and please spare me any psycho babble about what constitutes as a real “racist” because I am not interested)
I don’t remember reading anything from you that is self-reflective of white Americans or white American culture and how American governments policy’s have hurt white people — where is the analysis of white pathologies?
you have “one hundred and one” rationales on black pathology but as a supposed non-racist, you have yet to manage to say 1 negative thing about white people nor have you reflected on the positive and negative aspects of white American culture and pathologies
a true non-racist observer can point out the sand in their own eyes before or while he is pointing out the sand in other people’s….
as you can see, you have black Americans on this blog who are “for and against” reparations… they are able to be objective about their own culture but somehow, you seem to think white America is perfect — GTFOH you fraud!
I’m tired of you white Americans coming here to talk sh’t about black people but you can’t seem to talk sh’t about your own white people.
you come on this blog trying to sound all “intellectual” like a poor man’s version of Randy (Abagond’s long-time resident race realist)
you have hit every nail of the Race Realist manifesto, you haven’t missed one phrase… do you think you are original with your thinking and that we all haven’t seen or heard the bullsh’t that comes from you…
you are not the first or the last pain in the a’s that comes here to derail from the discussion.. because you add Nothing to these discussions..
you are not “thought provoking”…. you are a buzzkill
(sorry, Abagond, needed to get that off my chest– be proud of me, I kept it as clean as I could)
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sb32199
Sharina:
Daniel Bryant? He’s not an economist.
Linda says,
No sh’t Sherlock..
Daniel is another commenter, whose comment you must have missed and breezed by in your rush to impress everyone here, with your fantastic Google encyclopedic knowledge
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-236214
and I’ll answer this for Sharina because with this comment, you once again prove that you are a Narcissistic, blow-hard, who thinks that he knows it all
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sb,
Therefore, in your view, nothing much would change. The future of blacks would include the same high crime rates (as reported by city police records and the FBI crime statistics), the same low academic achievement, the same pattern of social pathologies, including, fatherlessness, substance abuse, and griping for more money from taxpayers.
So, the subtext of your post comes to down to admitting that a reparations payment would be a big waste of money.
That’s not what I said, and you KNOW that’s not what I said.
And I knew sooner or later you will bring up the black pathology shtick that we’ve heard millions of times from white people to justify their bigotry while posing as intelligent, basically good people. It’s the same old broken record played over and over again by different people.
Only you think that reparations would be a big waste of money and that’s likely due to your racist mindset that imagines black people as some lost cause, products of their own destruction that is only seen in their communities more often and not anywhere else.
Bottom line, and this may sound like liberal dribble to you, but I firmly believe that there should be money, effort and programs, as well as a complete overhall of the economy, justice and political systems would not only benefit blacks, but this whole country.
And by the way, I know you don’t think you’re a racist. I bet you think you’re a race realist, eh?
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ks
It can be both, but I think it is a matter of when and how to distribute the monetary portion of it. There needs to be something concrete in place before that happens, imo.
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sb32199
“After a while I expect people to exercise their understanding of rates and imbalances and extremes, and realize that a couple of examples of something in a universe of hundreds of millions is virtually zero.”—After a while I expect people to have a clear understanding that words such as always and never have a meaning and their meanings are not up for debate. The mere fact that you are trying to do such is almost laughable with a hint of unbelievable.
“As for your claim about a white perpetrator, okay. How many? One? What was the crime? Knowing one person, having a connection to a single event, is evidence of a near-zero rate.”—I never said it was evidence of anything I only responded to your ridiculous assumption that, and I will quote, ” I’ll bet you don’t know a single black crime victim who was attacked by a white perpetrator.” You bet wrong, so as to your follow up questions of how many etc. that is just more of you attempting to deflect from your weak azz claims.
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I thought I needed a break from work, and came to have a look at the last few comments on this thread and see that SB is up to his usual bleeding.derailing, nonsense.
This time, instead of backward, ignorant wishful thinking about supposedly useless, no-good Muslims in Africa and Asia, now it’s blacks — blacks — who have no grasp of anything.
Especially anything “technical”. There’s only one black economist in the world, it seems, no leaders…just brainless, stupid people. Such rubbish.
There are a number of black thinkers who’ve concentrated their minds on this subject.
Probably the first book on the subject from the US context was by Boris Bittker and published by Toni Morrison who edited this white economist’s thoughts on the subject.
Then, there was Randall Robinson’s “The Debt”, which was more of a legal-economic exposition. It’s something of a classic…
There’s also the work of Dr. Dania Frank and Dr. William A. Darity (both economists, as well as being alive and BLACK).
Click to access EconomicsReparations.pdf
There are others, like Dr. Glenn C. Loury (income distribution is one of his specialisms). And of course, Dr. Ralph Gonsalves, the Prime Minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, and leader of the Unity Labour Party (ULP).
Dr. Gonsalves spearheads CARICOM. In 2012, he took the view that it was high time for the “formation of a region-wide Reparations Commission to seek compensation from Europe for native genocide and enslavement of Africans during colonisation”
He and other Caribbean leaders used the UN’s General Assembly as a platform from which to mention in the speeches the demand of reparations… (I believe Dr Gonsalves has his doctorate in economics and government, something like that…)
Martin Luther King, another learned person and leader, proclaimed that reparations were necessary, 1968, I believe.
In the speech Dr. King points out that wide a range of benefits were provided to European immigrants and white farmers — like the Homestead Act (*cough*), the equivalences which were denied to the formerly enslaved Africans.
That being so, Dr King outlines the rationale for reparations and concludes “when we come to Washington …we’re coming to get our cheque.”
http://tonyatko.com/video-lost-speech-dr-martin-luther-king/
Anyway, back to grindstone…
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Sharina,
From what I’ve learn, most whites only value the opinions of other people if their opinions (those of nonwhites) echo theirs (white people). I don’t know if they truly realize how phony it is to say how you value everyone’s opinion and respect them, but will act condescending when it differs from their own, or they are really bad actors and are horrible at pulling the wool over other people’s eyes.
And I don’t know if they truly don’t know that being uppity and insulting would get respect in return. Do they know that always citing black pathologies as if we’re the only ones dysfunctional as hell is offensive? Do they truly believe in we have a screwed up culture just because? And if they do, and a lot of them do, do they honestly think that it came from a vacuum?
It astounds me that anyone would be this clueless, stupid and seemingly proud of it. I can’t cancel that possibility out. I would even call it a pathology in itself. I would even go so far as to call it a mental illness. No joke. But something hasn’t been clicking up there since day one.
And I was thinking the same thing about this sb fellas being xprae, or at least his disciple.
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Brothawolf
Over time I find that I am not surprised in the slightest by comments like sb.
I think for those individuals it is better to believe blacks and “black” culture, as they call it, is screwed up rather than to own up to the fact that american culture and ideas are screwed up. I’m not sure if they truly believe it so much as they want to and seek confirmation of it.
“And I was thinking the same thing about this sb fellas being xprae, or at least his disciple.”—I agree.
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Bulanik, Boris Bittker wasn’t an economist. He was a law professor. His book about reparations has gotten some attention over the years. The reviews were favorable, but it’s acknowledged that he didn’t put forth ideas with any possibility of succeeding.
A key point is this: Considering all the wrongs that have been done through the history of humanity, it’s beyond any possibility to compensate, with money, every aggrieved group and/or party.
On that note, what’s been done to compensate the families of the 800,000 victims in Rwanda? That slaughter was only 20 years ago.
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sb,
Putting aside the arguments for how reparations should be paid, treated or used, history shows that Israel was paid millions for slave labor during the holocaust by West Germany. Also, Japanese Americans and their descendants were paid millions for the internment during World War II. Even Native Americans were paid 3.4 billion dollars in a settlement ending a long-running dispute over government mismanagement of tribal lands and accounts. This is just a fraction of examples.
Here’s the question: Again, putting other arguments aside for now, do you only think black don’t deserve reparations, or do you really think no one, including the groups mentioned deserve reparations since, as you say, “It’s beyond any possibility to compensate with money to every aggrieved group and/or party”? Whatever your answer is, why?
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@ sb32199
Your last response shows you to be typically uninterested in any real serious debate or discussion about reparations. It easy to watch your antics with the vast majority of commentators here and conclude you are not really interested in any awakening or awareness conversations. You wish to remain asleep.You have your own agenda plain and simple.
In particular, the last two responses by Linda and Buanik would have shamed any self-respecting white person who was simply trying to be objective and maintain their integrity. You clearly do not have any! Which is why you simply and conveniently chose to side step the many accountability questions concerning YOURSELF raised in those comments put to YOU!
This is why I say you have your own agenda, plain and simple!. I personally wouldn’t bother in exchanges with you except for entertainment purposes. Now even that pursuit, as commentators here are finding, has rapidly diminished in its production value…
Its “dead” like your state of thinking…
.
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A key point is this: Considering all the wrongs that have been done through the history of humanity, it’s beyond any possibility to compensate, with money, every aggrieved group and/or party.Derailment.
———————–
On that note, what’s been done to compensate the families of the 800,000 victims in Rwanda? That slaughter was only 20 years ago.Not relevant as presented and a second derailment.
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Once, again sb, you show me what you are.
Economics is a discipline that an academic can occasionally turn their learning and abilities to, even though themselves have a grounding and reputation in another field of political or social science, law or maths. I have met 2 mathematicians who also called themselves economists. One of them now calls himself “a poltician”, the other “a financial advisor”. I even knew a barrister once who was employed to handle the economic minutiae of a private bank, and after her grounding in the subject, was usually introduced as one of that bank’s “economists”. She’s now an “environmentalist”.
And since you know so much about about Prof. Bittker, why not detail those ideas that had “no possibility of succeeding”?
And, whilst you are at it, please enlighten us to how his ideas compare to:
Robinson
Frank
Darity
Loury
Gonsalves, et al — because such a comparison would not only be relevant, but important.
Thank you.
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@matari {re swiss proposal to pay every citizen $2800 per month just because}
“And that’s not even for reparations!!! LOL I think it’s just for GP, General Principle.
Perhaps this request is due to an overabundance of SWISS timepieces.”
just saying, if we, as americans, didn’t authorize our ‘government’ to carry on in its wanton disregard for everything, perhaps something could be enacted to equalize everybody, pretty much wishful thinkin on my part, that’s all… but yeah on GP.
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Legion,
I wrote:
“A key point is this: Considering all the wrongs that have been done through the history of humanity, it’s beyond any possibility to compensate, with money, every aggrieved group and/or party.”
The preceding conclusion comes from the legal scholars who reviewed Boris Bittker’s book. Not me. Thus, something tells me you’re not in any way familiar with Bittker’s work.
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v8driver,
The plan to mandate a minimum pay of $2,800 a month in Switzerland has been ended. The plan had nothing to do with Nazis or WWII. It was nothing more than another pie-in-the-sky unaffordable notion that reasonable people rejected.
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sb32199
“The preceding conclusion comes from the legal scholars who reviewed Boris Bittker’s book. Not me.”—Then you just plagiarized because you did not quote or say where it came from you just simply wrote it. Secondly he said “Not relevant as presented and a second derailment.” Not that it was you.
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Bulanik, you wrote:
Probably the first book on the subject from the US context was by Boris Bittker and published by Toni Morrison who edited this white economist’s thoughts on the subject.
Inasmuch as you presented a law professor as an economist, your error makes me wonder what you know about him and his work.
Meanwhile Bittker’s book is not an economic treatise. It’s a book about how to think about reparations, mainly from a legal standpoint, which is what a reader would expect from a law professor. Not surprisingly, with regard to reparations, issues of Constitutional law come into play. In fact, there are loads of legal issues at every turn, which Bittker acknowledges.
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sb, I have to ask you, do you think law and economics are disparate and unrelated fields and regarded as such by those that specialise in the field?
Tell us that.
1.What do you know about the role of law in questions about economics?
Are you suggesting that the professor had no training in the discipline of economics, yet felt qualifed to write on the subject of taxation?
How on earth did he ended up writing about tax issues whilst being “only” a law specialist? Tell us that.
2. Are questions of taxation (Bittker’s apparent specialism) only “legal” in nature? And,
3.since YOU are obviously versed in the detail of the professor’s treatise(s), why did Bittker make the case for reparations?
Why would he seek to open the debate?
Boris Bittker had clearly profound knowledge of economics, enough to out-point economists in the discipline. The correlation between the 2 disciplines, and their overlap, was recognized and explored by academics around the time that Bittker was a young man, and learning his craft.
http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?
article=3833&context=californialawreview
From: http://www.iep.utm.edu/law-econ/
“The law and economics movement applies economic theory and method to the practice of law. It asserts that the tools of economic reasoning offer the best possibility for justified and consistent legal practice…”
Further: since you know so much about about Prof. Bittker, why not detail those ideas that had “no possibility of succeeding”?
By details, please give them.
And, whilst you are at it, please enlighten us to how his ideas compare to:
Robinson
Frank
Darity
Loury
Gonsalves, et al — because such a comparison would not only be relevant, but important.
(I know I asked you before, but you didn’t answer, did you?)
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Bulanik,
Read the following and you’ll know the basis for my view on Bittker’s thoughts on reparations.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2380115?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2134&uid=2481814027&uid=2&uid=70&uid=3&uid=2481814017&uid=3739256&uid=60&sid=21104110228827
Meanwhile, are you unaware of the basic law-school curriculum? Every law student takes a course in taxation. Students can “major” in tax law, and there are post-law school tax curriculums for those who want specialize. A sort of law-school master’s degree in taxation.
It’s not uncommon for those with accounting undergraduate degrees to follow this path through law school
As for economists, yeah, they study taxation too. But you don’t go to an economist for a valid legal opinion on matters of taxation, especially when the opinion has to assess the Constitutionality of the situation. And if you were George Soros, you certainly wouldn’t consult your economist before filing your taxes.
Nor would you consult an economist on how to approach reparations from a legal standpoint.
For whatever it’s worth, I read the shortened version of Randall Robinson’s “The Debt”. I liked most of what he had to say, though a few of his statements are factually incorrect. But overall, he makes some good points, some of which work against the notion of reparations. However, in the end, he urges blacks to change. To do a little of what other groups have done to improve or establish their identities.
I also read the Frank and Darity article. Perhaps I’ll compare and contrast and get back to you. It’s interesting stuff, but it doesn’t have the kind of shattering effect you might have hoped for.
Here’s something that hangs over the entire situation. There’s no black nation on the planet that serves as some kind of model, even as a half-way model for the way forward.
Say what you want about predominantly white democratic nations, but all view the future in terms of self-improvement. Of course mistakes are made, but the path taken is the one that seems to point to betterment. Is anything comparable happening in sub-Sahara Africa? Haiti? And the issue of Rwanda lingers.
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^^ the first link should be this one: “The Correlation between the Sciences of Law and Economics” by R.J. Heilman, 1932
http://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3833&context=californialawreview
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sb — you posted the first page of a book and this is the basis of your deep-going and credible analysis. No, sorry.
You haven’t told us ANYTHING but the basics.
At best this is rather underwhelming. I was expecting grand enlightenment. What you HAVE said, seems so vague and woolly, I just don’t think you have read it, and if you have, your thoughts seem oddly superficial and dismissive, like you’d skipped huge junks whilst reading because you didn’t like it the contradictory bits.
You did that with the book by Bernard Lewis, claiming he said things he clearly did not…
😀
Let me break some “shattering” news to you: Bittker wasn’t a student of law when he wrote the tax books that became standard textbooks!
Where and how did he learn about Economics? By studying Law?
Be real. He knew what he knew about Economics because he studied it.
Next: the syllabus’ available for law study might contain a module about tax — among a raft of many other subjects. (British Law)
But tax is a sub-area, a specialism. Economics is not like a sub-branch of Law…have a look at the schools that treat the disciplines as inter-disciplinary.
This might expand your dichotomous outlook.
And yes, actually I do know of individuals who go to financial advisors who are economists. Yes, really.
Others consult accountants (or use auditors )for that kind of info.
It varies according to country, and personal requirement, y’know.
Really? People with large concerns like that consult a variety of professionals and specialists. You think it’s lawyers who sweat over ledgers? You think it’s a lawyer who interrogates, devises stats, researches projections?
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As for Economists, well, they may be employed to advise not just businesses, but insurance companies, banks, securities firms, industry and trade associations, labour unions, government agencies, etc., etc. They have to know what may and may not be done within legal parameters.
(“… economists who are primarily theoreticians may use mathematical models to develop theories on the causes of business cycles and inflation, or the effects of unemployment and tax legislation.” Quite useful where Lawyers are not.)
But this is pretty basic stuff…knowledge accumulates and evolves, and reparations is an evolving policy, so the likes of economists might well be consulted on how to approach reparations from a legal standpoint.
Therefore black economists like Daria Frank or William A. Darity, or any of the othersI mentioned, probably work within not only an interdisciplinary — but evolving — framework.
However, you still haven’t answered the questions I put to you, and no where near adequately.
And once again this:
You made the exact same argument about the brown and black people of the Muslim world, and when I pointed it out then, I had the feeling that, at bottom, you felt this way because of the race of the peoples in these countries…
http://www2.yk.psu.edu/~dxl31/majweb.html
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Bulanik, you seem to hammer on pointlessness.
Boris I. Bittker (November 28, 1916 – September 8, 2005) was a prominent United States legal academician. A professor at Yale Law School, Bittker was a prolific author, writing many textbooks and over one hundred articles on tax law.
Born in Rochester, New York, Bittker attended Cornell University (’38) and Yale Law School (’41). After law school, Bittker clerked for Judge Jerome Frank of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit.
From 1942 to 43 Bittker worked as an attorney for the Lend-Lease Administration in Washington, D.C.
During the next two years Bittker fought and was wounded in World War II, receiving a Purple Heart. Returning from Europe, Bittker went back to government service, working for the Office of the Alien Property Custodian.
Bittker reluctantly returned to his alma mater as an Assistant Professor in 1946. Eventually he gained tenure in 1951, became a Southmayd Professor in 1958, and Sterling Professor of Law in 1970.
He was a law professor who wrote articles and books on tax law — and he was a smart guy who picked up a lot of knowledge about economics along the way.
Meanwhile, it seems you don’t understand the various roles found in the financial world. But bottom line — when you want a legal opinion, you go to a legal expert, who will always be a lawyer, and, if the situation involves truly critical stuff, the expert is very likely to be a law professor.
As for your comment about posting only a first page, maybe the link didn’t work. You might have to open an account with JSTOR to get full access. That’s on you.
Your comments about the financial world and the legal world fly all over. You don’t seem to be aiming at any meaningful point.
Just so you know, my background includes quite a few years on Wall Street working with lawyers, economists, analysts, mathematicians and some who barely graduated from high school. You seem to have an outsider’s view.
Moreover, based on your comments, the course requirements for a law degree wherever you are, differ from the standard courses taken in US law schools.
As I said, I read the Darity/Frank commentary. Maybe I’ll read it again.
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sb, look. You are the one who decided to DERAIL this otherwise serious discussion because you want it to be a quibble about one white individual’s professional appellation. My original comment was intended to highlight the foresight of Toni Morrioson in publishing him.
There’s a lot of things you pretend to know, and I don’t buy it.
You are the one, who, at base, wants this to be about the inferiority of People of Colour. All the rest — is diversionary.
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@ sb32199
“So the issue of your solipsism comes into play. Why? When you mention culture, it’s clear you’re exposing the views of your own culture — black culture — and transferring those views to whites and white culture.”
Now that really takes the cake!
You have someone who appears to be white, critiquing “black culture,” insinuating that black people are indulging and transferring their culture to whites. How bizarre is that? What you and other whites are seeing, who feel the way you do, are the reflections of the perniciousness of a culture which was created and fostered for many generations; by my reckoning, (and I’m not speaking only of the US, but any society in the Western Hemisphere and beyond, that the institution of African chattel was the norm – whether it was the Spanish, Dutch, French, English, the Portuguese, Americans and one or two Scandinavian countries,) as many as twenty five to thirty five generations of Africans suffered under the system, and still are.
The policy and procedure manual varied very little throughout the entire the system. That is/was the culture that was bequeathed to all of us – black and white – and now that the proverbial chickens have come culturally come home to roost. Black people’s culture was one created and foisted upon them by whites, and for so many generations, is now the object of their total disdain, save for the portions that can be commoditized for their financial gains.
Whites were flummoxed that the newly minted ex-slaves weren’t able to read and write AND WONDERED WHY, and are still wondering why.
During Jim Crow, students of African American descent wanted to attend colleges and universities in their town/city and were prohibited from doing so by law; yet, whites argue, then and now, that if that person really wanted to attend college and university, he/she could’ve attended the one some ten or twenty miles away(IN THE SAME STATE – this is not fiction), as if the law governing/barring entrance of those of African descent to white colleges and universities did not apply to the institution ten/twenty miles away.
How clueless can most white be on these matters?
I’ll reiterate; human beings create and foster culture whether imposed or genuine. Now, as to you comment to Brotherwolf about fatherlessness of black children, and I’m going get flack for this this, is not unique to a SUBSET – NOTE: SUBSET of African Americans, but it is commonplace in societies in the Americas and beyond where Africans held in chattel slavery.
For the sake of expedience, I’m going to copy and paste a post I did on another blog a few weeks ago, in reference to another clueless white person, with my doing slight modifications.
Black Person or Assumed Black person:…“The difference is you don’t see Black folks in America shooting down young white kids (or adults for that matter) in the streets because of any perceived “white attribute or characteristic”!”…
White Person:
“Raise your fucking kids, and stop glorifying gang violence. That’s all there is to it.”
Ubuntu’s comment:
…“Barely five generations ago, white men would’ve been elated at the birth of a child from his slave woman, regardless who sired it (use of “sired,” more in the tune with the times) – black male/white slave owner/overseer – it mattered not one whit. It enhanced his wealth/economic holdings; he possibly paid his taxes to the state based on his worth and the generation of income derived there-from, if the property, the slave child, was disposed of a few years later). Many black males or should a subset of black males, as part of that cultural legacy, are still of that slavery mind-set, no different from the many whites, who still believe black people are “inferior,” treat them as such, a threat to them and still believe that slavery was the best thing that could’ve happened to black people. One’s psyche can wreak havoc on one’s existence.
These young black men had no role model; because that was the way the system was set up. Most black men, and for many generations, had no responsibility for the children they sired;– “they were animals” – so said white man and treated them as such). (THINK CULTURE) They (the children) were not THEIRS; they belonged to slave owners, no different from the foals from mares, piglets from sows and calves from cows. Slaves were not allowed to legally wed, and those in some sort of “committed relationship,” could see the mothers, fathers and their children sold off. (THINK CULTURE) Those borne from the loins of white men and black women, whether through rape, coercion or “consensual relationship” were dumped on the black inferior side of the racial equation – they weren’t fully human, but at least had some “human blood” in them owing to them being sired by white men (according to white men). (THINK CULTURE) He/she/they too was/were part of the assets of the slave-owner to be disposed of as that slave owner saw fit. (THINK CULTURE) The result is: they too, were never taught how to be to be fathers – and I’ll reiterate, for many centuries and generations. (THINK CULTURE) Don’t think for a moment that such behaviour is unique to America, it’s not; it’s pervasive in all societies/countries in the America’s that imported and enslaved Africans.
All of us are primates, whether or not we’d like to believe it. We learn through mimicking those that are in close in proximity to us, and I’d like you to consider whether a system that culturally lasted some twelve, thirteen and possibly fourteen generations, (in the US) the effect that could have had the psyche on those who had to endure it, including succeeding generations who inherited it as a cultural legacy. Is it any wonder that we’re reaping what we have sown?
Just so you know, the “and not run away from the kids they already have” is already a part of the white community (not a pathology, nor considered such, if the practitioners are white – I guess?) near you.
As a term of reference, (the white person to whom I had addressed my comment) just think for a moment about something culturally that your great grandparents did – the God they worshipped, the rites they performed at funerals/burials, weddings, the food they eat, and just in general, a cultural legacy that today, after three or four generations we still practice without giving it a second thought. Try reframing that within the concept of centuries of chattel slavery and its pernicious brother, Jim Crow.”
Solipsism? I’ll pose this question to you: What precaution do you take to not being raped?
The first thing white must acknowledge: we live in a white supremacist society; we are only incrementally progressing along the route of “genuine culture” But this will not happen until whites recognize that there is a problem. The problem is not their skin colour, but the culture they foster.
The billboard of whiteness is there for all to see, except by clueless whites, and, if you feel the billboard is being maligned, it’s because of what it advertises. It’s asinine to argue, white/whiteness is being assaulted, when that’s the product that is/was being promoted for many, many generations.
I’ll reiterate reparation will occur; it’s just a matter of time.
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Here’s a pretty good article- great critique of Ta-Nehisi opinion http://phillisremastered.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/slavery-reparations-dont-follow-the-morals-follow-the-money/
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@ Matari
“I remember asking you a question, and I recall you saying that you’ll get back to me after you feel better,… but I don’t remember in the slightest the question I asked you either. Well …maybe the slightest… was it a sort of philosophical question like, :”How would you do such and such …?” Whatever it was I don’t believe it’s worth your time to try to go back and find it, though… unless you have certain instructions to do so.”
Thanks! You’re most kind!
I remember that I was roasting with fever that night, and for about four weeks thereafter, I had this lingering cold – just wouldn’t go away.
I don’t do too many postings here and I have a tendency to keep a record of a few, especially if it’s something I find a bit irritating and totally clueless on the part of the commenter. I will take a look at what I have to see if it jogs the memory.
Cheers!
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Am I impatient for wondering why sb hasn’t answered by question yet?
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I’ve not read most of the comments. Very busy. T-N C’s “Atlantic” joint was well stated and addresses many points I’ve made over the years, here and elsewhere. Two items I’d add: (a) With respect to government housing subsidies, suburbs, white familial weath, the subsidies extend well beyond the intial cash assistance. The infrastructure to enable suburbs to exist at all — the roads, sewers, etc., connecting a suburb to its metro — those were all paid by state taxpayers. The city dwellers. (b) There is ample precentend in history to support a case for reparations under the facts in T-N C’s joint.
But I digress. What I wanted to respond to are the various posts on this thread along the line of “raise your kids and stop gang-banging”. In other words, stop harboring pathologies within your social fabric. You see that a lot from white posters, but it’s not as if black people one day got together and said: “Hey, I have an idea, let’s become a despised, ridiculed, and fundamentally pathalogical undercaste. Yeah, that’s a great idea!” To the extent a portion of urban black America has become such an undercaste, our nation as a whole has create that, via all of the vectors outlined by T-N C in his “Atlantic” joint.
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Ubuntu,
To clear up any misconceptions on your part, the point I was hoping you’d grasp was this — the thing you ascribe to whites — being of a single mind on subjects of race as those subjects regard blacks — is, in fact, what you and most black commenters at this site practice.
You give the impression you believe that whenever a group of whites are crafting a policy or developing something, there’s a moment when the question of blacks comes up. It’s as though you believe the question is “Can we make this policy bad for blacks? Can we stick it to them?”
There is a hidebound repetitiveness that’s inescapable, and the conclusion is invariably consistent — everything that’s wrong in the black world is the fault of whites. What’s missing is some introspection. Not a hint of it.
The intriguing part is how commenters sound off on what they believe are the details of white thinking, never realizing it’s pretty much impossible to get inside the head of another person, a person who, in your view, provides the key to all thoughts for the entire group. But it’s easy to create a straw-man, a human piñata, or to find an outlier who quickly becomes the Every-white-man.
On the other hand, group outcomes and everyday practices are visible. Group performance in academics, in business, in behavior, in values, as demonstrated by what people do, rather than what they say.
Many actions and practices have measurable effects, and in the aggregate, they are what passes for culture.
Anyway, the thinking displayed here is amusing alongside the practice of the current administration to blame so many of its failures and so much of its incompetence on George Bush.
Do you understand the concept of solipsism?
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Abagond,
It might be helpful – for some – if you would write a post about, Zero Sum Gain.
It’s origin, how it works, who employs it and why.
Thanks.
*
*
Ubuntu,
I’m glad you overcame that illness and that you’re still here dropping TRUTH (despite the current large background NOISE levels). lol
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@Sb32199
The only confusion displayed throughout this while discussion seems to be you. When you fail your default retort is “you don’t know” or something along that line. A list of your many failures include but are not limited to:
1. Assuming what people in here believe
2. Assuming all contributers are black or American
3. Mentioning thing you claim people in here said but no one mentioned ( Anyone mention George Bush?)
4. Contributing one commenters words to everyone (after claiming we think all whites are of single mind).
5. Being a hypocrite
6. Being intellectually dishonest
7. Deflecting
Did I miss something?
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@Bulanik
I tried the link he presented and signed up for the site. It seems to be nothing more than a book review and another weak attempt on his part to present a source.
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@ sb32199
“Do you understand the concept of solipsism?”
Yes, I do. I erred. Rather than: “Solipsism?” – it should’ve been” Solipsism!”
Now, if you’re at a loss to the reason the question was posed, then you’ll understand my derision to your assertion of “solipsism.” and applying it to me.
The question needs to be answered, and if you can’t, then…
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“…and now that the proverbial chickens have come culturally come home to roost.”
…and now the proverbial chickens have come culturally come home to roost.
I also apologize for my other poorly structured sentences and the absence of punctuation marks in certain places.
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@sharina jstor is a repository of scholarly articles, from what ive seen, like graduate level+ research papers etc, but apparently books now too, and one pretty much would have to use the service through their university or something, i think its pretty pricey
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Vs
Yes, but sb pulls them knowing full well getting access to it would take more than it is worth. Usually it turns out the book or article says something entirely different from what he claims. The link he provided says it is a book review and does not provide access to the actual book unless the 14.00 it wants you to pay will provide that. Not sure.
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.”….
4. Contributing one commenters words to everyone (after claiming we think all whites are of single mind).
5. Being a hypocrite
6. Being intellectually dishonest
7. Deflecting
Did I miss something?”
**************
Sharina,
If being intellectually dishonest doesn’t translate into being an outright LIAR, then yup, you did miss something. That is he’s a stellar liar.
What lie was said?
“You’re mistaking black behavior for the white response. Whites don’t burn anything but oil, gas and coal, all in the appropriate combustion chambers.”
Someone reminded him otherwise by stating, “i seem to remember them being known for burning a few other things too”
When one tells a whopper, one either has to come clean, or continue the lie. His amazing intellect (sic) came up with this unbelievable doozy:
“Not in the US.” he said, showing his utter contempt for the people on this site!
His inaccuracy was pointed out by several commenters. What did our lowly troll do next?
Did he come clean? Did he address any commenters regarding his infraction?
Nope!
Did he attempt to explain or address his deceitfulness/disrespect?
Umm…No!
He simply quit posting for a few days only to return again as if the entire episode never happened, or, no one here remembers that he (or his arguments) lacks any integrity or credibility.
Aside from being a troll, why do you think this whacky asinine commenter is here and so invested in trolling?
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Ubuntu:
I’ll pose this question to you: What precaution do you take to not being raped?
Raped? In what sense?
Meanwhile, the common practice at this site is to dwell in the past. This is where the solipsism comes in.
…“Barely five generations ago, white men would’ve been elated at the birth of a child from his slave woman, regardless who sired it (use of “sired,” more in the tune with the times) – black male/white slave owner/overseer – it mattered not one whit.
It enhanced his wealth/economic holdings; he possibly paid his taxes to the state based on his worth and the generation of income derived there-from, if the property, the slave child, was disposed of a few years later).
Many black males or should a subset of black males, as part of that cultural legacy, are still of that slavery mind-set, no different from the many whites, who still believe black people are “inferior,” treat them as such, a threat to them and still believe that slavery was the best thing that could’ve happened to black people.
You’ve reached these silly conclusions because they suit your thought process. Not because there’s any evidence. However, inasmuch as the distant past is repeatedly brought into the discussion, it’s understandable that so many blacks are willing to argue they’re prisoners of the past.
Meanwhile, this statement of yours is true:
One’s psyche can wreak havoc on one’s existence.
However, the issue of what America owes blacks, the question posed by Randall Robinson, would be easier to answer if there were a black nation in the world that provided some framework for comparison and contrast. There needs to be a basis for quantifying things.
What do blacks achieve in autonomous black nations? What kind of society do blacks build when they’re in charge and when they account for the entire population?
In most black African nations, the annual per-capita GDP is about $1,500. Educational achievement is minimal. Disease is rampant and life spans are short. In contrast to that, there’s a lot to recommend present-day black life in America.
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Matari
“Not in the US.” he said, showing his utter contempt for the people on this site!
You’re a funny guy with a selective memory, or selective eye, or something.
As part of this issue of reparations, I’ve asked more than once about what’s being done in Rwanda. The response from the commenters here is nothing but a big brush-off. A sidestep.Oops. Nope, can’t discuss that topic. Only 20 years old, 800,000 murders. A slaughter, but that’s off limits. No talkee about that one.
And how are things going in Zimbabwe now that the white farmers are pretty much gone from their farms and the farms have been taken over by blacks who seem incompetent at farming?
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Meanwhile, the common practice at this site is to dwell in the past. This is where the solipsism comes in.
I find it funny how black people are not supposed to dwell on the past, but white people can learn, celebrate and manipulate history and not be told to get over the 4th of July. It’s like saying that my history is not important, but their version of “history” is.
In the end, the past connects the present. In a lot of ways, the past is still haunting us. The racism POC face are shadows of the past. We can’t talk about racism without talking about the past. This is where reparations is involved. There is still oppression present that mirrors the oppression of the past. So, to call it “dwelling on the past” is a DB move to ignore the obvious and shame POC for speaking on a subject in which history matters.
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Kiwi,
Thanks, and I agree. In school we’re taught about the “greatness” of people like Christopher Columbus based on a hero worship version of history through the eyes of white supremacy, and not the genocidal maniac he really was. We are still bombarded with images that paint him as one history’s greats.
But let us so much as mention slavery or Jim Crow or even bring up black movers and shakers in history, and we’re dwelling on the past.
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“As part of this issue of reparations, I’ve asked more than once about what’s being done in Rwanda. The response from the commenters here is nothing but a big brush-off. A sidestep. Oops. Nope, can’t discuss that topic.”
_ _ _
if you actually want an answer, perhaps you might want to inquire this of the Rwandan government since it has zilch to do with the issue of reparations being paid Black Americans, not by Rwanda, but by the government of the United States of America.
And, to this effect, Black Americans should not have to apologize for, or to sort out, cases of wrongdoing performed by other groups / nations — regardless as to whether these cases are from the very beginning of the written word, or from two decades ago — in order to expect / demand redress for wrongs done to us.
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@ sb
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-236555
^ Another irrelevant comment.
Not only have I not read Bittker, I’ve never heard of him; I’m quite alright with that.
I did a search for the name in the thread and it seems you were responding to others who mentioned this author. Your comment did not have a “@ so and so”. It looks like you were responding to Bulanik. I have not been reading all the comments.
To me your comment was irrelevant because the issue of whether reparations payments is possible for all aggrieved groups or not, is as relevant to the American blacks situation, as that issue is to Jews when they sought reparations.
I’m not in favour of reparations for American blacks (the paycheck version) but I don’t believe in the use of baseless arguments to be in opposition to reparations.
What is next? Black Americans should wait until Armenians get reparations for the Genocide they suffered at the hands of the Turks? Such a suggestion would be as useless and transparent a derailment as your diversionary attempt with the Rwanda example. Why did you bring up Rwanda instead of the Armenian genocide? Are the black commenters here supposed to be embarrassed when you mention the pain and suffering of other blacks in the diaspora?
—————-
Totally agree with Pay it Forward in her recent comment.
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@ sb
We are not morons:
1. Zimbabwe and Rwanda are stock deflections used by White American trolls.
2. We know you are not here to have a sincere discussion. Your “combustion chambers” comment showed that. So does #1.
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Any discussion about reparations involves the law, and that, in turn means a search for precedents. Not surprisingly, supporters of reparations have mentioned Jews and Germany.
There was a line of reasoning that was applied to that situation. Meanwhile, Boris Bittker, for reasons of law, Constitutionality and practicality, stated that reparations for slavery itself was an unworkable idea.
Where else does one look for some guideposts? Well, Rwanda is a one place that might offer some insight into how blacks handle the issue.
But, because it suits your argumentative standards, discussions about Rwanda and Zimbabwe are out of bounds, off limits, and identified as some kind of trickery.
In other words, in your world there’s no place for an open discussion if part of exchange touches one of your nerves. On the other hand, when it comes to whites, you and other posters state whatever you like, which is perfectly okay with me.
What’s amusing is the growing vocabulary of terms you have for describing what you believe is someone else’s motive for making a statement. If anything, the game of calling foul at every turn is a sure-fire conversation/discussion killer.
Based on the frequency and nature of all the foul calls, it seems to me If all your rules for discussions were compiled, they’d form a text longer than the US tax code.
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I’ve been thinking lot about this specific blog topic and checking back regularly.
However what I’ve been reading is quite pathetic really.
I been a member of this blog for quite a few years and I’ve made numerous comments on various topics only to be completely ignored.
Yet racist white commentors after racist white commentors come to this site and make comments with the sole purpose of demeaning the commenters ,the admin and the topic at hand ,and what do they get – lavish attention and interaction.
that last exchange with the sb charcarcter and buliki was extremely pathetic ,hey bulieki a ecomonmist is a economist and a lawyer is a lawyer ,they may have have overlap but they are not the same,can’t just admit when your wrong uh….geuss what if you don’t you look even stupider.
as far as the rest of ya ,yeah some semi informative comments ,some of which have a bunch of typos cause
ya can’t be bothered to proofread it in word or another word processing app,me neither but I will write
it out in notepad so I won’t lose it completely ,meaning I’ve learned from previous mistakes.
And finally what does this have to do with reparations for african americans via the Ta-Nehisi Coates blog post at the atlantic (which has some interesting other topics as well) well in viewing said post I saw it was 10 ten times longer that the pretty reasonable rebuttal by Atlantic senior editor david frum,
so I’ll read it in full when I get around to it.
As a poor and homeless african american male decedent of involuntary immigrant to this still very hostile and aggressive society,
na Im cool on transfer payment from one group of white people through me
to another group of white people.
One more thing ,the issue of black pathologies has been raised and its linkage to white racism has been made as well ,I think one is causal to the other and interrelated ,reparations is just avoiding the issue.
feel free to ignore at will.
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Mbeti,
you have made a VERY valid point. I think everyone has said one time or the other, that it’s best to ignore hateful trolls like sb32199, that’s why I said my piece and left it alone… because as you say, these i’diots and trolls thrive on attention.
I think I will continue to try putting them on ignore
I read the article Lifelearner brought in and I actually liked what she said, which was in essence “follow the money” because basing reparations on moral outrage will not work: author Honorée Fanonne Jeffers
“The traditional argument for Reparations—or “case,” as Brother Coates put it—is based upon past cruelty done to African Americans. And that is not a sturdy foundation.
I hear a collective shouting from my readers. Because how dare I say that the pain that African American suffering is not worthy of Reparations? But I’m not saying that in the least.
“White folks were mean to my people” is not going to carry the day. Moral outrage is not going to carry the day. Tears are not going to carry the day. Talking about Racial Apartheid is not going to carry the day.
And here’s what I realized—and what other, far more learned folks than I already had realized: Slavery money is not clean money. It’s like any other kind of money earned from ill-gotten gains. Like organized crime money
Dirty money leaves some kind of trail. And what is dirtier than slavery money?
So, if “slavery was then and this is now,” how come that slavery money didn’t end “then”? How come that “in the past” money is still buying triple shot lattes now–all day, every day, today?
What about those universities that still have endowments in the billions, endowments supported by slave trade money? Is that not present slavery money?
it is time for us to understand that in order to be prepared for the ugliness that comes when discussing Reparations, we need to be prepared to set aside emotion and go straight for the jugular:
the contemporary American wallet that is still fat with the unpaid wages of our ancestors.”
http://phillisremastered.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/slavery-reparations-dont-follow-the-morals-follow-the-money/
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@ sb32199
“Raped? In what sense?”
Just as I thought! You’ve unwittingly answered the question and you don’t even know it.
“As part of this issue of reparations, I’ve asked more than once about what’s being done in Rwanda. The response from the commenters here is nothing but a big brush-off. A sidestep. Oops. Nope, can’t discuss that topic. Only 20 years old, 800,000 murders. A slaughter, but that’s off limits. No talkee about that one.
And how are things going in Zimbabwe now that the white farmers are pretty much gone from their farms and the farms have been taken over by blacks who seem incompetent at farming?”
Their farms! Please explain to me, how they got them in the first place? And, unless you can discuss pre and post UDI Rhodesia/Zimbabwe’s history, do not raise these issues, especially with me. The same goes for Rwanda and Burundi.
“However, the issue of what America owes blacks, the question posed by Randall Robinson, would be easier to answer if there were a black nation in the world that provided some framework for comparison and contrast. There needs to be a basis for quantifying things.
What do blacks achieve in autonomous black nations? What kind of society do blacks build when they’re in charge and when they account for the entire population?
In most black African nations, the annual per-capita GDP is about $1,500. Educational achievement is minimal. Disease is rampant and life spans are short. In contrast to that, there’s a lot to recommend present-day black life in America.”
Who are you? Please don’t raise issues about which you have no clue; it makes you look st..id and invites derision from others. I’d suggest, you read a few sentences somewhere on our global economic system before you indulge me in the issues of development and underdevelopment in so called “third world countries.” Make sure those sentences are not pro-manifest destiny.
I will not engage you any further. Your last comment tells me that you are still a juvenile or having the mentality of one – not too bright either.
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@ Mbeti
Good advice. Thanks.
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OFF TOPIC: Zimbabwe, Rwanda or any other country unless it can be tied explicitly to Black reparations in the US.
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@ Linda, Abagond
On a regular basis, you both answer and tackle the hateful nonsense of racist trolls.
You’ve both engaged and answered them because the rubbish they spread can’t be left to stand unchallenged and uncorrected.
Is that pathetic on both your parts?
Mbeti certainly has a point, but how can a blog like this maintain a policy of serious, free debate but cut out the negative influence of attention-seeking trolls?
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@ Linda
Also read that article. The author seems to say it’s not moral justice that counts, it’s economic justice that matters. I wonder about this.
After some years of listening to mainly Africans, and some Latin Americans, they end up making this point: Look at American blacks who “make it”.
They become owned by rich white people and become just like them.
The reasoning goes (not my reasoning, or observation) — if and when a black American becomes does well or becomes wealthy, rich even, they most often become Republicans, very conservative, and to a fault — supporters of the American system.
They want the same, not to change the society, not make it better, and ultimately this is about being left out.
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I think Mbeti has an excellent point. I would like to say this at the risk of deviating from the topic a bit.
We’ve encountered those like sb before and have given them more than enough attention than they deserve. Speaking for myself, I know that when these types creep in, it’s nothing short of bullying by definition. In a way, they’re telling us in as many words, some of them at graduate level, as possible that what we think doesn’t matter. What we say doesn’t matter. They do it in the guise of a debate, argument or even a conversation when all they’re doing is shifting the conversation about them and what they think and say.
Again, from my POV, that conjures a level of disrespect so deep that it opens wounds caused by a racist society. The commenters and trolls that visit here and other similar websites who tell us how wrong we are about something we know first hand remind us that our minds and emotions don’t matter.
To that end, there’s a need to defend our right to think, feel, speak and exist. We turn to those people to tell him what we think, even though many of them really don’t care what we think or how we feel. We turn our attention to them to show them how wrong they are.
The problem is that many of those people argue in bad faith. They use broken record arguments. Race realism/racist arguments. Name calling. Repetition, and disagreeing almost all the time – some will do so without any backup info. And in the end, they could care less. I’m (always) right and you’re (always) wrong In the subject of racism, that’s virtually condescending, especially when raw emotions enter.
The subject of reparations is very complex. This is one of many forums to talk about it openly and honestly. However, there are people who divert attention using their usual tactics. They are not deserving or capable of having an open conversation, especially when they try to guilt trip you in the process.
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@ Brothawolf,
All these points are true. What should be done?
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Ignore them.
Esp. when they change the subject or fail to contribute anything to meaningful discussion or if they devolve into something personal or ad hominem.
When a new person contributes meaningful input, welcome and congratulate them.
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“After some years of listening to mainly Africans, and some Latin Americans, they end up making this point: Look at American blacks who “make it”.
They become owned by rich white people and become just like them.”
_ _ _
In all irony the same point has also been made about incoming immigrant groups to the US as well.
I myself have come to find, though, that the need to spread such gossip derives from little more than petty envy and back biting, and as well an attempt to smear even further the image of Black Americans and groups targeted by hearsay and negative personal opinions.
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@ Mbeti
a ecomonmist is a economist and a lawyer is a lawyer ,they may have have overlap but they are not the same…you look even stupider.
They are different, but that wasn’t my point, was it? Sb wanted to be irrelevant.
So this simply wasn’t about being wrong and not wanting to admit it.
(I don’t have a problem with that — something you clearly haven’t noticed).
The schools and professionals I was speaking were the products of the law and economics movement. The curricula for that line of study were formed by law professors habitually supplying legal knowledge, and economists supplying economic concepts, to each others’ subject matter; that started around 50 odd years ago. Together they formed a subject, sometimes studied together, or classed as one subject.* It’s not as cut and dried as you (and sb) say.
But, I spoke only from my own experience (in Europe).
* http://www.strath.ac.uk/undergraduatecourses/humanitiesandsocialsciences/bahonslawandeconomics/#top.
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“…the need to spread such gossip derives from little more than petty envy and back biting, and as well an attempt to smear even further the image of Black Americans and groups targeted by hearsay and negative personal opinions.”
– – –
Smh.
This is not only unfair, and untrue. Perhaps, also, most unwise?
The real irony here is I’ve ALSO heard black Americans say of other black Americans who make it: they don’t care about us.
I have heard that (from Africans, Asians and others who emigrate to the US) that some black Americans are jealous — bitterly so — of the success other PoC from other countries achieve in the US.
This is not my personal experience, but it is the experience of some of the people I know and trust.
It’s also been reported that some black Americans, all too passionately, buy into American Privilege: they don’t have a problem with the US being a big bully to the rest of the world, and smugly enforce it given half the chance because they want to be part of that powerful club.
I really don’t know how representative this PoV is, but it’s doubtful if it is mere gossip, back-biting or a desire to smear, as to many, many outside the US, black Americans can appear not that different to white Americans.
Can it be so personally random and personally “nasty” a phenomenon?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/how-black-and-white-americans-seem-alike/
I have also heard, many times — again even from numbers of black Americans I have known — that racism is shown to other ethncities and races by them, too.
Could this be why the reason when some black American visit Africa, they are taken aback when the locals do not look up to them?
This was also touched on in a post about black Americans (and other black Westerners, too!) when visiting Africa:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/a-bit-of-realism-for-those-interested-in-africa/
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Perhaps UNITY and collaboration could be more effective than blaming gossip: when CARICOM leaders (spearheaded by Primie Minister of St Vincent, Ralph Gonsalves) proposed the “formation of a region-wide Reparations Commission to seek compensation from Europe for native genocide and enslavement of Africans during colonisation” I wondered whether this could be the first stirrings of something more, something regional, and inclusive of the US?
Dr. Gonsalves saw purpose for extending the discussion…. “If all of us in Caricom are on the same page with this, it is going to be difficult to touch us,” he said.
He appealed to “all right-thinking people around the world …. to embrace reparations for slavery and native genocide.”
It was time, Dr. Gonsalves posited, to assemble a competent and committed body of experts, historians, economists, statisticians, lawyers and other professionals, “to prepare the case, including the sums of money and other initiatives.”
And it was the Vincentian Prime Minister’s assertion that the region must continue to advance the cause for reparations at all international forums.”
– See more at: http://thevincentian.com/call-for-regional-reparations-conference-p3032-149.htm#sthash.1TX9tiAs.dpuf
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It seems to me the best way to tackle debates is from a logical standpoint. A knowledge of logical fallacies seems important as well. There are people who will resort to all sorts of derailment and deflection tactics, nitpicking / pedantry, emotionalism, even straight out lying in attempt to shake you and to at least appear to be winning the debate. The whole line of “well, what about Rwanda?” was a bold-faced attempt to throw debaters off by appealing to emotionalism. It’s a common tactic.
Internalized racism is no joke, and it is the cause of Blacks getting their feelings hurt over racist stereotypes and insults. We most definitely will have to overcome this crippling indoctrination, this feeling of inferiority to others (including to certain nose-thumbing PoC) that we sometimes carry around with us, if we’re ever to win this struggle.
My advice in dealing with those arguments as presented by racist trolls, is to stick with logic, and to also bone up on logical fallacies so that one might quickly recognize and point them out when they are used in an opponent’s attempt to win a debate. The trolls who you debate know both the rules of debate as well as the logical and how they might be used against any opponent who is not actually a knowledgeable debater but is very simply … “winging” it.
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Mbeti certainly has a point, but how can a blog like this maintain a policy of serious, free debate but cut out the negative influence of attention-seeking trolls?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/#comment-236989
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“Smh.
“This is not only unfair, and untrue. Perhaps, also, most unwise?
The real irony here is I’ve ALSO heard black Americans say of other black Americans who make it: they don’t care about us.”
_ _ _
Shaking my head right back.
According to what you, yourself, wrote up-thread, as well as the the nasty swipes taken at Blacks, and at Americans in general, by you, it is not only fair and true, but it is wise as well.
For your information, gossip, anecdote and hearsay is exactly what it is; and what’s especially ironic about it is your chosen phrasing of: “I’ve also heard…”
Well, apparently, what you have not heard is the actual definition of the word “hearsay”…. Please look it up on your well-worn favorite search engine.
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Perhaps there should be a thread about the american privilidge and how it is encompassing the black americans? Do they suscribe it vis a vis foreigners etc.? That would be interesting.
I have no problem about the so-called preparations etc. but I would like to see this to be part of the bigger picture. The big picture naturally is that unless you change the whole system, well meaning gestures like these will be just gestures in the long run. The problem is not weather some one gets money here or there, but how to rid the whole system from the intergrated systematic racism which is tied into to the whole social structure and model.
I can not remember who the commentator was who said in this blog in some other thread way back when, that once black americans become wealthy/rich they tend to become conservatives/republicans to whom the very idea of changing the whole System is as repugnant as to any wealthy whites. And yet, I belive, as long as the System itself is not changed, nothing will be changed truly regarding the racism.
Martin Luther King and Malcom X both realised this. And that is when they became truly dangerous and had to be silenced. As long as they just wanted the black americans have the same rules as anyone else, nobody paid much intention to them (some HC racists did of course), but once they started to preach against social injusice and unequality IN THE SYSTEM ITSELF, they were wiped out.
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Well , there are two systems in America, the racist institutional , legacy of slavery , good old cronies system , and the system set up by the founding fathers that was never meant for black Americans , but , seventy percent or so have , through great struggle , and overcoming huge obstacles, are a serious and notable part of….
People outside the usa cant even tell the differance, they are ready to lump black Ameticans into the privaleged Americans catagory , but forget the struggle to succeed in the other system….even black Americans who start politicly agendising, forget this and criticise succesful black Americans
As an American living as an immigrant in another country, I see ignorance in their portrayals of Americans, and they dont distinguish the struggle black Americans had to go through to advance through one system , facing the obstacles if the racist system…Actualy for them , part of the face of America is the black rapper and NBA ball player….with no nuances about black American culture , which they have no real idea of its history….
People from other countries are flocking to this other system , and , in truth , where is there another system in the world where collective black America could accumalate the wealth and power they notably and impresivly have attained through great struggle?
The country I live certainly isnt that country, thr barriors and obstacles because of the legacy of slavery are as deep and the system just doesnt allow it
Destroy the American system ? Ridiculous….attack the racist system
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Mbetti , you called me a racist , Im happy to , and have addressed you one on one anytime….
I just read an article that the money coming in for marijuana sales in Califórnia was 31 billion ! !
In truth , there are very real huge possible solutions to problems America faces right in front of its nose
Legalising marijuana at a federal leval could easily have enough fresh revenue that a very real tax for reparations could be established, and what more fitting and just way, since these laws were set in place to jail mostly brown and black people..
I would wish this money would be aplied to the institutions in the poorest neighborhoods…schools , healthcare, etc
A commitee of black Americans , set by black Americans , could be in charge of how the funds would be used , determined by black American debate
These are very real solutions , based on new revenue that wasnt reaching into anyones pockets
The question that has to be asked , do people really want to make these things happen ? Or , is it really more important to want to vent about it ?
Venting is fine , but , white people arnt going to listen
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And I find this notion from people from other countries that the usa is “bullying them” , a notion that ought to be put in perspective of who the other players circling them also, as well as , they ought to think of looking in their own mirror and ask what internal conflicts and oposing sides were in affect that brought America in as well as the other players , who were called in ,that they conveniantly forget about
I just dont buy this clichêd notion of what America is supposed to be in this world from people with an agenda
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@Matari
Yep. Absolutely forgot about the lying part.
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Mbeti
I personally don’t respond because I ponder on your comments are opposed to a quick snark remark I can make with no effort. There are actually a few commenter’s I do this with. Pondering and understanding is my form of learning and growing.
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Bulanik
Or you can do what herneith (hope I spelled it right) does and poke fun at them. I struggle with this as well at times. Part of it is disbelief, but lately I have decided to just poke fun a move on.
I mean how smart can he be when he has to resort to lies?
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Pay it forward
“Internalized racism is no joke, and it is the cause of Blacks getting their feelings hurt over racist stereotypes and insults. We most definitely will have to overcome this crippling indoctrination, this feeling of inferiority to others (including to certain nose-thumbing PoC) that we sometimes carry around with us, if we’re ever to win this struggle.”—-‘Well said and I agree.
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I read the article linked by Lifelearner too, the day she put it up. I think the article is sort of awful. I don’t think what the writer narrows in on will (or should) “carry the day” either.
The writer narrows down to the following as the possible valid path to getting reparations, and by reparations she is talking about getting a payout, she says “moolah”:
What might win the day and some moolah—and that’s a big, fat, might, because the fight for Reparations has been going on for a couple of hundred years, at least— is a discussion about what actually happened to all that money made off the slave trade. Just where did all that money go?
It would be an education to find out details of corporations, universities, families, foundations, etc that directly profited from the evil institution. But if this author got her wish and a detailed report came out showing such things, what she wants is for the force of that report to make getting a paycheck more compellingly likely?
I think the author is being shortsighted and narrow. Such an exhaustive report would have way more value than the author cares to see or mention. Such a report would be further testimony to the need to fundamentally alter various institutions. What is way wiser and way more important is changing the way the society operates and is run.
Again:
Just where did all that money go?
I understand the author wants a detailed accounting. But in the general sense we all know the money went into the building of a powerful and wealthy nation that shut blacks out from having full participation in that society, with many, many horrible consequences. For me that screams to changing the institutions (vague I know), not getting a simple paycheck–as the writer in Lifelearner’s link, ostensibly wants; if she wants institutional change as well, she did not say it.
If Reparations means things like targeted effective programs to increasing higher education rates for blacks (black males), eliminating the very obvious racism seen in the black underemployment and unemployment rates, if reparations meant those sorts of things, then it is a good thing. If it’s just a paycheck, then what lasting use are reparations? And would a paycheck be the best way to try to serve justice?
————————————
I agree with sammi’s comment.
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Legion
I see your point and I agree. As I have said I believe black Americans should get both, but just a paycheck alone is not it for me. Just a paycheck comes off as a pay off for silence. Those that pay it will expect blacks to no longer address the injustices that occurs in the system.
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Brothawolf
Sb actually brings up the past in hopes of derailing you towards it and once you engage in the argue he turns it around to present tense and claims the other party is dwelling in the past. I think he may be asplund now simply due to the nature of his debating.
Though this is a tactic I see with quite a few white commenters. They can bring up the past but don’t you dare.
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@ sami parkkonen
Mira did a guest post on American privilege:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/american-privilege/
There is also Andrea Smith’s Three Pillars of White supremacy wherein Blacks are the victims of one pillar but benefit from the other two, which gets at what you are talking about:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/
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Or you can do what herneith (hope I spelled it right) does and poke fun at them. I struggle with this as well at times.
That’s the spirit! Do not empower these yoyos by ‘debating’ them as they have no interest in learning anything but wish to make their racist presence known. I constantly ask myself why these jacka$$es bother coming to these blogs when they are thoroughly trounced more often than not. One can ignore them, refute what these loons have to post, it’s all good. Besides, some of the best laughs I have had were reading posts from these fools.
I don’t know about anyone else here but I like to learn new things although I don’t always post. Sometimes STFU is the best way to learn, in the very least, some can garner some reference points should they wish to look into a subject further. Let the comedy continue say I!!!!
Let’s get back to reparations! Reparations is not just about money but would encompass a myriad of things such as free education both collegial and learning trades(trades pay very well!). No taxes, free health care, acknowledgement of past treatment(historical), the list would be quite extensive, hence the opposition from most whites. Follow the money to the companies and organizations which were entrenched in the trade, there are many other such thing that could fall under the umbrella of reparations, not just cash. Reparation can be an umbrella which effects ‘healing and uplift for the victims of the historic and ongoing oppression of blacks. Unfortunately, I don’t thinks this will happen anytime soon. He//, give me the cash and get lost on second thought! Forty acres and a mule must be worth million in today’s money!
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Sharina,
With many white commenters, I’ve seen them bring up the past as well. But I see them bring up only certain moments in history while purposely ignoring other parts that are just as or more important to bring up. Of course, you can bring up those parts, but like you said, they won’t have it.
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And what about Great Britains responsibility for slavery in North America up until 1776 , and the money that went into its wealth from that slave trade?
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Pay it Forward said to Bulanik:
“Shaking my head right back.
According to what you, yourself, wrote up-thread, as well as the the nasty swipes taken at Blacks, and at Americans in general, by you, it is not only fair and true, but it is wise as well.
For your information, gossip, anecdote and hearsay is exactly what it is; and what’s especially ironic about it is your chosen phrasing of: “I’ve also heard…”
Well, apparently, what you have not heard is the actual definition of the word “hearsay”…. Please look it up on your well-worn favorite search engine.”
– – –
Bulanik’s reply to Pay it Forward is:
Excellent advice. Why not take it yourself, Pay it Forward?
Agreed, it is no joke.
Therefore I would also add “including the impulse to lash out at other PoCs, foreigner or immigrants pointlessly”.
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ABSOLUTELY, BR.
Those bastards have a massive debt to pay to black people in the region.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve commented about this on different occasions (now deleted).
The case for reparations for the transatlantic trade in enslaved Africans inched forward last week when Caricom leaders accepted a 10-point plan for negotiations with the European nations which planned, executed and profited immensely from this crime against humanity, a crime that cannot be allowed to disappear without settlement.
…The targeted countries are Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, The Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Denmark which participated, to varying degrees, in the slave trade that took place from the 16th through to the 19th centuries.
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/The-case-for-reparations-from-slavery_16268551
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/jamaica/10640560/Jamaicans-lead-Caribbean-calls-for-Britain-to-pay-slavery-reparations.html
There’s a lot more info on this.
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@ Sharina
Exactly.
Also: THANK YOU for not shooting the messenger.
“pondering and understanding is my form of learning and growing” — because you do this, I respect your commentary more for it.
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@ Abagond
You mentioned:
Abagond: Do you agree with this analysis?
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@ sami parkkonen
BR says only the racist system needs to be changed.
As much as I would like to believe that…there is a problem, because I don’t see how a system built on racism can have that component “extracted” from it and still function. Isn’t there a contradiction in there?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Earlier on I posted the speech from Martin Luther King (1968) about reparations and what is owed to the black and the poor, which was igorned.
We know about the image of Malcolm X and what happened to him.
And, it was only when Martin Luther King started to talk like a Black Panther that he really became dangerous.
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First , Bulanik , I apreciate your comment on Great Britain …
And , my point was , there are two systems , or ,more if someone did the analisis…
The system of white racism , is seriously in place , with all the obstacles and exclusions and present day intimidations
But , what has to be acknowledged is that , even with white racism in place , black Americans , through great struggle, have generated wealth and prosperity , far exceeding any other comparable situation in the Americas , where slaves were brought over from Africa
There obviously is a flow from some other system in American life , that not only allows that to happen , but , makes huge numbers of people from other countries flock to America , to be a part of that flow….inspite of white American racism and obstacles
And , if black Americans get in that flow , they can aceive the highest positions of power in that system
Its not enough to sluff off Obama , Colin Powel , Condi Rice, Oprah Wynfry etc , as pawns in the white racist system , they attained their power inspite of white racism , through another flow that is a reality in American life
Obama is not Malcolm X or Martin Luther King , he is a politition, representing his party , he never claimed to represent black America , but , as an individual black American , he has risen to the highest office of power in America.
Black Americans are fully entrenched in the American system and I dont think the majority would just jump on board to tear it down , but would all agree white racism is in affect and that should be torn down…white racism is not the whole picture , there have been too many laws passed in congress fighting white racism to be able to just say that
Obama may have disapointed lots of people , but I assure you , this blog doesnt represent a monolithic block opinion of black Americans and how they feel about Obama, many black Americans support Obama , and arnt ignorant sheep as how they would be described on here , sometimes, by commentors
To not acknowledge this other flow , in America , is leaving out a blatent reality , and , this positive flow through great struggle, doesnt justify one instant white racism and not acknowledging the legacy of slavery , and how it affects today
By all means it would be healthy to address these issues , it is in the interest of all Americans to address these festering wounds , who in their right mind would want these issues to not be addressed and resolved ? And , there are many creative solutions that could be looking at reparations
Yes, attack racism and reign in hyper capatalism , but dont tear the system down…the fact the other system flow is so strong and quantifiably observable , and that racism and hyper capatalism (as oposed to capatalism with a concience and social programs) , quantifiably failures , gives great hope that slow steady vigilant preasure , can keep the good flow going
And chip away at white racism step by step
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@ Herneith and all
Re: Herneith’s third paragraph
I don’t want to litter the thread, so I want to keep it short. Personally, I’m not too sure about bringing about some of those things you mentioned but concord with those things doesn’t necessarily matter. Let’s say those things were brought about. You mention that the more extensive the list, the greater is the opposition from whites –that is most true and it also is No Joke.
Getting the things in your list implemented is one struggle, keeping those things whole and not undermined or reversed, once implemented, is another struggle. If you search a Democracy Now video (it’s in two parts) with Michelle Alexander and Randall Robinson, you’ll hear her talk about the white reaction (not all whites for you pedantic angels out there) and political reaction to victories won during the Civil Rights movement.* So, I wonder about these programs you suggest but apart from that, these programs would have to be implemented with right protections.
———————————–
* There was a broader political reaction too, to the anti establishment struggles of the 60’s and early 70’s, just to note. But that broader reaction is not the topic of this thread.
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@ Sharina
I agree very much with the spirit of what you’ve said.
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Why reparations will be paid (in one way or another – sooner or later).
Besides the matters of unpaid labor, killings, theft, mutilations, oppression and much, much, much more there were:
Family relations/ties that were broken, sold, traded, exterminated for reasons of terrorism/control..
Our native African languages and dialects were forbidden to use. Unlike most other ethnic groups in America, blacks born in the USA have no collective record of our own second/third language(s).
African belief systems were forcibly stripped away from us. In its place we were spoon fed an adulterated religion that even our captors and their evangelists didn’t keep, believe in or practice. Christianity was used to justify slavery… and some still try to use it to this day to denigrate black people.
The philosophies, wisdom, rites, roles, traditions, ceremonies that our African fore-bearers practiced were also stripped away from us. In its place we were taught western thought, ideas, ways and ideals. No wonder we’re are so upside down and confused. Their ways are NOT our ways. I contend that any and all black people that are fully entrenched in this western system can’t help but be lost and confused.
The point is that no matter how much of our true selves we gave up to be a citizen of this nation, we were never embraced as full citizens.
————————
I am not, nor have I ever been FULLY ENTRENCHED in the American system. Nor will I ever be. Why would I want to be fully vested in a corrupt system?
B.R. said
“Black Americans are fully entrenched in the American system and I dont think the majority would just jump on board to tear it down , but would all agree white racism is in affect and that should be torn down…”
*************
I don’t know what the majority of black Americans would do. We may receive a big wake-up call, and wind up not participating in keeping the nation afloat. But I do know that RACISM is an INTEGRAL part of the American system that’s about the rich getter richer while they stick it to the less fortunate – with the poorest of the poor getting the biggest shaft.
I don’t see two different Americas, ie a racist America and a separate capitalistic America. America is both racist, capitalist. If “racism” is somehow removed from the equation that makes America… capitalism will cease to exist because in America capitalism rides on the back of racism.
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There are some interesting contradictions emerging in peoples thoughts here that perhaps could do with a bit more reflection…
As Matari stated:
“…I don’t see two different Americas, ie a racist America and a separate capitalistic America…”
This is true the two are one and the same. They both grow out of something far much larger and insidious. Something a lot of Black Americans making their first million tend to play down and perhaps ignore and try to forget.
The whole concept and discussion about Reparations throws up many challenges and questions about the morality and ethics of what was carried out in the past and how such crimes and injustices can be amended and put right. So that a continuation or glorification of them can be avoided.
Unfortunately, without a total and comprehensive review of the present, social, political, educational, economical and cultural (you name it) systems in America. It will not be effective. This is the number one reason why such a discussion around reparations needs urgently to take place. Not just in the US but on an international stage. Which, for those of us who observe the news outside the US, can acknowledge is now beginning to happen.
Its a contradiction and a naivety to express as, I believe, BR has stated:
“…Yes, attack racism and reign in hyper capatalism , but dont tear the system down…the fact the other system flow is so strong and quantifiably observable , and that racism and hyper capatalism (as oposed to capatalism with a concience and social programs) , quantifiably failures , gives great hope that slow steady vigilant preasure , can keep the good flow going
And chip away at white racism step by step…”
And as Bulanik has correctly observed:
“…BR says only the racist system needs to be changed.
As much as I would like to believe that…there is a problem, because I don’t see how a system built on racism can have that component “extracted” from it and still function. Isn’t there a contradiction in there?…”
Yes…there is a contradiction there which both Black and white Americans have to face. That is: the same system which produced seemingly great wealth, power and privilege for a select few – The American Dream (Regardless of colour or Ethnicity) is the same system that continues to perpetuate the same crimes and injustices of the past. Its just that they take on newer and more complex forms while the hierarchy of those (mainly white elites) in power still remains intact.
So if having a national discussion about reparations could pose such a challenge as Hernieth has also commented:
Then perhaps it is about time we had it…Why should anyone Black or white wish to object to that as ALL would benefit? Only those entrenched in the present system, or with an eye to benefiting from it as it currently stands, would want to oppose this….
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Matari, I totaly hear you about the cultural destruction…my profesion is an extremly blatent example of those wrongs with stealing the culture and capatalising on it to make money..that is why i would aprove of reparations…its too real to deny what happened…
unfortunetly, thinking capatalism is the villain in racism is not true at all
ive brought in the link twice proving that Cuba is racist..until people realise that racism exists with capatalism , communism, christianity, judism, islam etc you will never really get to the bottom of what is really causing racism…you will only be on the receiving end , blaming capatalism or something when it just isnt the whole picture
no , i do beleive their are various systems and that America does try to correct itself and face its problems…since 40 years after america became a country, white people were concerned about slavery…there have always been white people trying to correct it
and, how can anyone explain then that black Americans have attained much more wealth and power than afro descendants from other countries in the Americas?There is no comparison to Brazil…the closest country in the Americas to the usa dynamic…something is differant in one part of the American system…people flock there for that reason…how do you explain that? you cant sluff that off with a flipant answer or a weak political agendised cliche…its too blatent and screams out at you…
which as i said doesnt excuse the blatent white racism and obstacles that do exist
but ,why do you give marxism a break when it has racism clearly in it also in cuba…you have to really understand the racism in the Americas..its a bigger story than capatalism or communism and has to be dealt with on its terms and that in a big way is cultural…that is what people feel the most without even going out the door…its on the tube. most people wont be shot by the police or called the n word but they will suffer cultural racism every day…exactly beacuse of what you described, Matari
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capatalism is the easy target to go after these days in the political agendad circles, but , they will never get to the bottom of it if that is the focus…they wont understand, castro is the same as the capatalists, its all about power..
i meant most people wont get called the n word on a daily basis
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hyper capatalism? its really controlable if the people want…they kicked the music business in the rear end but never went in for the kill…because all they were doing is getting something for free…but people can get at the corps if they want…they just have to hook up…its that simple
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@ Bulanik
Blacks certainly do benefit from anti-Native racism – they live on Dead Indian Land – even if it is to a lesser degree than Whites, even if they were brought to America at gunpoint.
Blacks do not benefit, by and large, from anti-Asian racism because Blacks are, in effect, an internal colony of the US.
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@ Kiwi
Black Americans are an internal colony is what I meant.
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@ Abagond and Kiwi (who will probably get a laugh)
Blacks certainly do benefit from anti-Native racism – they live on Dead Indian Land – even if it is to a lesser degree than Whites, even if they were brought to America at gunpoint.
Now that’s just cruel! Jokah was dying for you to say that shit or trap you into “admitting” it (you know because you were trying to keep it a secret an’all) , and you wait until you ban him to say it. Ow! 😀
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i over italicized my sentence but anyway, point made
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@ sami parkkonen
@ Abagond
Okay, I see where you’re both coming from.
This is why I don’t believe reparations are due because of “racism” only.
That’s why reparations for the damages of slavery can’t be a claim on countries of the former Eastern bloc, “socialist” or Communist societies…
The claim has to be on the Western social / economic system which is capitalist, that were run on mode-of-production basis, on land that was appropriated, from labour units that were stolen and coerced.
Because those were the societies that commodifed humans from Africa to benefit Europe and the Americas. Which other economic system relied Africans’ the unpaid labour through sheer violence to lay foundations of the Western hemisphere, so that it could steal its resources and establish white supremacy, white might and (mainly) white wealth in the Americas?
That’s why the debt due is from western capitalism, and not the former Soviet Union, for example.
Cuba has been mentioned as “proof” that capitalism can’t be blamed because racism is a completely separate entity to “racism”.
Therefore socialsim, marxism, communisim, etc., and everything else, is as much to blame because racism lives on in Cuba. Not really.
That just muddies the waters.
First of all, Cuba is not the only racist country in Latin America.
It just claims the only one that claims to have iradicated those problems.
(Another Latin American country, Argentina, claims it has no racial problems at all. 😀 )
Cuba was cut off from the rest of world for decades: an island stuck in a 1950s time warp.
This was the place that practiced blanqueamiento (whitening and “improving” ones’ race by striving to marry white, and have white and ever whiter children) just as much as Dominicanos or Colombians, and had a white elite. Mental colonialism. Just like the other nations in the region, if not now, then at one time.
After all, whose labour was Cuba built upon? Whose land was Cuba originally? Who held the wealth in Cuba?
Cuba existed as a result of European colonisation, and the slavery of Amerindians, Africans and Asian coolies.. That heritiage NEVER went away, and when the Revolution happened, that island remained isolated from the intellectual dynamism, resisting change that was going on in the rest of the world by digging its heels in.
What continued to operate in Cuba after the Revolution was state capitalism.
Although I think the Cuban people are relatively healthier and more educated than many nations in the Caribbean (never did I see more doctors making ends meet through prostitution…), there exists a class of elites, and the elites are white, and white Cubans in and outside of Cuba want to keep it that way.
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@ Kwamla
“…there is a contradiction there which both Black and white Americans have to face. That is: the same system which produced seemingly great wealth, power and privilege for a select few – The American Dream (Regardless of colour or Ethnicity) is the same system that continues to perpetuate the same crimes and injustices of the past. Its just that they take on newer and more complex forms while the hierarchy of those (mainly white elites) in power still remains intact.
So if having a national discussion about reparations could pose such a challenge as Hernieth has also commented:
Let’s get back to reparations! Reparations is not just about money but would encompass a myriad of things such as free education both collegial and learning trades(trades pay very well!). No taxes, free health care, acknowledgement of past treatment(historical), the list would be quite extensive, hence the opposition from most whites. Follow the money to the companies and organizations which were entrenched in the trade, there are many other such thing that could fall under the umbrella of reparations, not just cash. Reparation can be an umbrella which effects ‘healing and uplift for the victims of the historic and ongoing oppression of blacks.
Then perhaps it is about time we had it…Why should anyone Black or white wish to object to that as ALL would benefit? Only those entrenched in the present system, or with an eye to benefiting from it as it currently stands, would want to oppose this….”
Agreed: but is it only those entrenched in the present system, but the ones who stand to benefit from that don’t want to change it?
When one thinks of all the unemployment, financial crises and poverty — and not least — the environmental problems about us, isn’t it time for a re-think?
The capitalist modes-of-production brought about great strides in technological development and an abundance of consumer goods, definitely an upside.
Then what, if the planet is out of kilter after all these efforts to gain wealth.
Could all those “strides” and advancements have outlived their usefulness?
Won’t they continue to?
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Bulanik,
Cuba was cut off from the rest of world for decades: an island stuck in a 1950s time warp.
Not quite. Cuba has relations with many nations around the world. The only nation with which it has only limited relations is the US. If Cuba were to change a few policies, it would suddenly become a trading partner of the US.
Cuba is a failure because it’s a dictatorship, and the leadership is paranoid. There is no fishing industry in Cuba because Fidel and Raul are not about to let people off shore in power boats that can reach Florida in a few hours.
There is no oil & gas industry in Cuba. Amazingly, the US extracts huge quantities of both resources from the Gulf. But Cuba — nothing. Not a drop. So Cuba relies on the kindness of other nations for its energy supplies. They have a list of excuses for their failure at everything. It’s all amusing nonsense.
You’d think Cuba would develop an ethanol industry. What else is all their sugar good for? But no, no ethanol industry either.
Cuba may well have a major problem with racism, but that’s not why the island is poor. It’s poor because the dictators want to run things their way. Well, they can do that, and the US can respond as it sees fit. Which it has, and that means Cuba loses.
Personally, I’d end the embargo. I’d do it for two reasons. First, because it hasn’t worked. Second, because opening up Cuba to American trade would destroy the Castro regime in a year. It would be swept out in a tidal wave of capitalism.
And no, Cuba is not, was not, an example of state capitalism. The Cubans are clever people who could do much if they were connected to the world. But there is no Cuban industry that matters to the world. For export they offer nothing but cigars and sugar. Maybe some rum. That’s not state capitalism. China is an example of state capitalism.
And by the way, Gonsalves of St Vincent and the Grenadines seems to be another dedicated Marxist who believes in sending a bill to living people for the actions of people who died several generations ago and handing the money over to people who have only the barest connection to slavery — that is, skin color.
As previously noted, Boris Bittker believes compensation for slavery is out of the question. He thinks the argument should focus on all the subsequent problems of second-class status, Jim Crow, etc, and the plan should take a cue from the programs that compensate Indians. But he acknowledges even that idea is full of flaws. Who would be eligible? To what degree? How would a figure for each individual be reached?
In short, he recognizes the idea would turn into a nightmare.
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Racism exists in Cuba, many black activists and artists and intellectuals signed a paper saying they agree Cuba was racist…the point being you cant blame capatalism for racism, it exists in Cuba, and many Eastern bloc communist countries and communist China banned Afro diasporic dances, I brought in various links proving it ,people actualy think communists cant be racist..oh ha ha ha…che was a racist, I have proved it…
what kind of sham would try to sluff over the fact that communism has nothing to do with stopping or preventing racism…that is the point..
slavery wasnt capatalism, that is a fantacy..it was monetarism..a slave plantation in the south has as much in common with a communist dictatorship as anything where everyone works for the state /estate and the owner is the dictator, both elements were in there …the industrial revolution was the birth of modern day capitalism and they wanted to eliminate slavery for their own reasons that werent for the benifits of the ex slaves but they were trying to eliminate it
people just want to give marxism a pass..i mean its amazing…no no no, marxism and communism doesnt stop racism, it exists with communism , capatalism, judism, Islam,Christianity…I mean, sorry to have to burst some peoples bubbles. but, its just the blatent truth
you are darn real cuba can get anything it wants from around the world, all westerners except the usa, flock to their tourist side hotels that used to only let foreighners in, and they enjoyed the prostituiont castro brags in two docus i saw , that that is what they got rid of with Batistie…he said that, that was his main pitch…and its still on his island big time…what blatent hypocracy
some people think if they just say something it makes it true
i dont like the embargo either
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my god, Venezuela gives huge amounts of oil to Cuba, and are practicly subsidising it now…Brazil just negociated a huge deal to get have a giant shipping port run in Cuba …and they receive a lot of doctors that get paid much less than other doctors that come from other countries and various ones are defecting because their pay is so bad…castro takes the majority of it..Venezuela is seriously in conctact with Cuba for direction and for allies and , they give all this oil to Cuba and financial aid and they follow its socialistic principles and now, after the legacy of Chavez with his protegee, Maduro, their infrastructure is falling apart
how can a serious oil rich nation, selling huge amounts to the usa, let its infrastructure fall apart , have rations for food and huge lines, have huge electric black outs in their grid ? etc…they are following the socialistic marxist principles of Cuba, and look what happens? they are tanking badly…thank god Brazil didnt go the Bolivarian revolution route …they are suffering but not with food rationing
people need to really be following the truth…nobody is following Venezuela after the debate we had on Chavez..people just throw out anything , their rhetoric, their Chomsky evaluations, and dogma , but arnt really following what happened after that…Venezuela is tanking because of Chavez and his methods that alighn with Cuba..
and yeah , absolutly , racism can exist under communism, it just doesnt really address it
that is why people trying to align their agendised poc causes with Afro diasporic needs and obstacles because of white racism, can actualy end up leading Afro diasporic people right over a cliff…some of the poc , or ideologues, they are asking to join have their own issues with Afro diasporic people and culture , or are really incapable of addressing those real cultural needs…Afro diasporic problems and obstacles have their own unique needs and issues, and, just blaming it on capatalism and the American dynamic does it serious injustice
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@BR:
Well, during the Great Depression, the only group where whites were really committed to trying to improve the situation of black americans, was the Communist Party of USA. Church groups and such were handing out alms and temporary relief, but they were not addressing the social changes needed to better things. The communists tried to break down the race barrier litterally, despite the racist attitudes among their own rank and file. This happened even in Harlem.
http://www.amazon.com/Communists-Harlem-during-Depression-Naison/dp/0252072715
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….and by the way , where did the ultra communist dictator of North Korrea learn to call Obama a monkey ? From Dennis Rodmen ? Monkey isnt the prefered black racist stereotype , by the way…
I mean people say these things about capitalism and racism , like it is the key ingrediant…nothing could be farther from the truth…many black Americans do well in capitalism , and really would like nothing better than to get the obstacle of racism off their backs , so they really could deal in capitalism
People need to get clear on that , or the debate that would be desired in actual reparations would be a flawed one and one quickly ignored by white people looking for faults to pick out
And speaking of capitalism and reparations , some kind of prosperity is going to be important to pay out reparations , and bastions of communism , like Cuba , North Korrea , the weaker versions that arnt commie dictatorships , but are following in Castros footsteps , like Venezuela now, hardly could pay reparations , and dont think their free public health care is pristine ,
Which is why America should legalize weed if it wants to boost its economy and have a tax out of that , that could pay reparations…
Hyper capitalism is just as bad…anyone who still runs the greed is good and to let hyper capatalism run wild , is severly naive or hiding an agenda…if Americans didnt get those lessons from the Bush Chenney administration , and that was extremly frightening , they are lost , and a bag of hot air …America really came close to tanking , ive seen a nations currency start to take a dive and not recover and hyper inflation starts and they just dont pull out.
America could have hit that tail spin and never pulled out , but , under Obama and the Democrats , we at least pulled out of the tailspin and , if not recovered, at least not going down …the money has to come somewhere…
Someone should start and run with the idea that they should have a campain for private donations for reparations , and take it straight to the wealthiest individuals and corporations …it would be interesting to see if they would react and actualy pitch in and maybe jump start it…the nations top wealthiest diante privatly to a national reparations campain…there are creative ideas out there if people really want to find them ….
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I meant to say monkey isnt the prefered American racist term for black people….which proves people from outside America dont learn this racism against blacks from white America …
Its funny to see people think racism against Afro diasporic people is a capitalist invention….
Not only did various communist countries ban Afro diasporic culture , various fundimentalist versions of religions have , including the church in America and Brazil , and some Islamic countries ….I liked this all up , as well as Sayam Qubt , the inspiration for the Muslim Brothehood and Al Quaeda ..and his racist connotations of black American culture
You will never really understand what racism against the Afro diadpora is if you only atribute it to American capitalism….communism , socialism , capitalism and religion hardly address what is really involved in racism against the Afri diaspora
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@ Abagond
Kiwi said:
Is there a post where more about this is explained?
@ Kiwi
Agreed:this is on the lines of what Herneith was saying earlier.
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I said racism doesn’t exist in Cuba?
I said racism was “invented” by capitalists?
Lmao!
Really, where? Who’s putting words into my mouth again?
I like how now and again one or 2 commenters read things into my posts that I don’t say nor mean. I wonder if it’s because of their reading skills (or lack of them), or is it another reason…?
When I replied to Sami Parkkonen & Abagond about the black population being a “an internal colony”, I said that slave plantations / labour in the Americas was used as part of the industrial system: It was internal to wider capitalism.
Racism was one way to justify it.
Did I SUDDENLY say something which hasn’t been said a million times before?
I also used the word “imperialism” in the way people like Edward Said used it, as a broad description of any system of domination and subordination that was organised “with an imperial centre and a periphery”.
That’s how I’ve generally seen it understood.
http://www.ricorso.net/rx/library/criticism/guest/Said_E/Said_E2.htm
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“The claim has to be on the Western social / economic system which is capitalist, that were run on mode-of-production basis, on land that was appropriated, from labour units that were stolen and coerced.
Because those were the societies that commodifed humans from Africa to benefit Europe and the Americas. Which other economic system relied Africans’ the unpaid labour through sheer violence to lay foundations of the Western hemisphere, so that it could steal its resources and establish white supremacy, white might and (mainly) white wealth in the Americas?”
“That is why reparations for the damages of slavery cant be a claim on …..communist societies”
That is absolutly what Im arguing against…and one if my points was slavery came out of monetarism, there are elementes of plantation slave life that are more like a communist dictatorship where everyone works for the state estate under the slave master dictator…and imperialism by the dictiinary sais its covertly or overtly interfering with another countries sovernty , which Cuba , The Soviet Union and Maos China did as much as the usa , Chavez also was imperialist as any yankee
This notion you cant implicate communism and can implicate cspitalism is a false one , racism exists under communism in the Americas….it has to be dealt with on its terms , which is more cultural than an economic system..
Castros revolution was directly against the capitalist system, it had nothing to do with eliminating racism except for some meaningless phrases you can find in American documents , and che was a blatent racist
Racism from slavery against Afro diasporic people has to be dealt with on its own terms , and get ready to card me on the Aráb. Trader red card , but ,you bet the Arabs are right in there also ….its perplexing and ominous when people cant get these simple truths about what has happened to the Afro diaspora
You cant give communism a pass in Cuba because it came in in the late fifties….it just plain frankly doesnt deal with racism…neither does capitalism , but black Americans have accumalated much more power and wealth than Afro Cubans…or most any other black populacion in the Americas….this is blatent truth as well as people everywhere flock to that part of the system that allows that other flow , inspite of the enormous white racism system….their are various flows and systems in America
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With due respect BR, I don’t think slavery and racism are the same thing.
And nor did I say so.
Also, because I thinks it’s IRRELEVANT, I didn’t go into the racism of other regimes.
My own opinion is that slavery, in itself, was not always bound to race, and racism, in itself, isn’t always an outgrowth of enslavement.
Those things depends on historical era, political context, and such.
In the Americas, black slavery became justified under racist thought, (and vice versa). And even after slavery ended in name, anti-black racism endured to keep the blacks as an internal colony, under white supremacy.
(I agree with that analysis given earlier.)
By then, the white elites in the Americas and colonialist European nations had benefitted from this system, directly (and also sometimes), indirectly, too.
That is at the heart of the case for reparations.
So, when I read remarks like: “slavery came out of monetarism…”, I have to
ask: you mean like in Roman slavery, and Chinese slavery and Russian slavery, because dropping “monetarism”, I believe is your way to talk about something YOU want to talk about, because you want to make the case that Mr Coates, and similar ones others, are making, irrelevant and hollow through pure confusion.
Next:
“…there are elementes of plantation slave life that are more like a communist dictatorship where everyone works for the state estate under the slave master dictator…”
Right. Plantation owners were Communists, then.
They were commies and they just didn’t know it.
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contd
Next:
Because the enslavement of Africans in the America’s must not be in the spotlight, the argument has to be discredited, so…. let’s see, what can be used……
Communism invented racism!
Yep — that’ll do! The descendents of enslaved African should sue the Russians instead. That makes sense.
(Btw:
George Orwell, a critic of Communism and Communists, believed that British rule in the colonies was considered to be indistinguishable from Germany under the Fascists.
He even implied that conservative and traditional thinkers — those that might subscribe patriotism could be labelled crypto-Fascist or ‘Fascist-minded’.)
Next:
“…imperialism by the dictiinary sais its covertly or overtly interfering with another countries sovernty.”
Okay, so when the EU government said that the UK had to use the metric sytem instead of it’s imperial measurements, that was “imperialism” in action, wasn’t it? Absurd.
The Oxford dictionary says nothing about “interference” in its definition.
It says imperialism is:
“…a policy of extending a country’s power and influence through colonization…”
On this thread, I believe that “imperialism” had been mentioned in the context, or aftermath, of the colonisalisation of the Americas.
Also only in relation to reparations — which is the subject and point of this thread.
*
^^ It’s evident the subject of raparations makes many whites quite uncomfortable, as predicted.
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@ Bulanik
My post on the Cherokee Trail of Tears:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/the-cherokee-trail-of-tears/
In the case of South Carolina in the late 1600s and early 1700s, Natives were sold as slaves to the Caribbean while Black slaves were imported. Natives made bad slaves in North America because it was easier for them to run away or stage an uprising: They did not have those advantages when far from home in the Caribbean. Natives also lacked the knowledge Blacks had about growing rice.
More on why Whites preferred Blacks as slaves over Natives or the Irish:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/02/06/white-american-racism-against-blacks-1600s/
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@ sb
Your ObamaCare comment deleted for being off topic.
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Just incredible how my point of view gets so twisted around its like it isnt being read..
Not only am i in favor of reparations, Im giving very real possible solutions about how to make it happen…what people get uncomfortable about is someone standing up to weak arguments that try to blame capitalism for something that it is not the origin of
The question is not saying the Russions have to pay reparations , where ever did you get that notion?,and by the way, its you guilty of always putting words in peoples mouths…i only anwer what i perceive to be said, so come off it… what has to be seriously challenged is this notion its capitalism that is responsible for racism and slavery, and the way people are pushing that idea and suggesting tearing down the system…
ive made extremly relevant points that show slavery and racism have nothing to do with capitalism..and its very blatently clear that Cuba, with its communist dictatorship, hasnt eliminated racism
Trying to say Russia has no responsibility is the same as saying foreigners arriving after slavery to the usa have no responsibility in the debate of the legacy of slavery, even if they participate in racism…Communist Soviet Union banned Afro diasporic culture, their communist system didnt eliminate their racism against Afro diasporic culture , no, they arnt suposed to pay reparations, but dont blame capitalism for slavery and racism when commuinism doesnt eliminate racism against the Afro diaspora either…and that plays out directly in Cuba in the Americas and that was my point , not some strange notion that Russia is supposed to pay reperations
I never said Russia should pay reparations, that is your twisted logic of what you portray i said, my point is capitalism isnt the reason for racism and slavery in America, it isnt the thing that should be destroyed and torn down , but seriously regulated with a concience and social programs….capitalism and communism were products of the industrial revolution, and in fact , there is nothing in either of them that mentions any help or solution to racism or the real prejudices and obstacles the Afro diasopora had to face …in fact, laws have been passed in the extreme capitalist America that directly try to fight against racism in the work place…and that is how it should be, fighting it constantly and with vigiliance without letting up..the battle is still going on , and there are many victories to show its possible to move forward..haha where did you get Im not for reperations, that is what you want to hear, no , Im for reperations , just not tearing down the American capitalist system..
This attempted focus on capitalism as the suposed villain in slavery and racism only reveals the agenda of those trying to make that the villain
the truth is, when capitalism came in under the industrial revolution, it had no idea or notion or intention what to do with all the freed slaves, the same thing happened in Brazil..capitalism just wasnt equipped to absorb huge numbers of freed slaves…it was independent of it, and that is why there is no real origin involved, same with communism, they just wernt invented and implimented with having in mind dealing with the freed slaves..even though slavery was ended to bring in this industrial revolution..these ideologies just dont have anything in their manifestos about slavery or how to deal with freed slaves or how to relate to the real needs and cultural racism towards the Afro diaspora, that was one of the real origins…
Religion had much more to do with slavery and racism compared to anything as far as justifying it…no matter what referance you have to Roman slavery, my point was , slavery in the Americas was mercantilism, has nothing to do with actual capitalism as we know it that requires a working wage…and communism came in at the same time as capitalism…if we are talking about reparations for slavery and its legacy, its an agendised false road to travel down to think its capitalism that has to be attacked and torn down….the people going down this road are leaving the major causes and reasons out…cultural racism is one of the biggest factors of all, and the thing most Afro diasporic people face on a daily basis
Once again, in the face of these weak arguments about capitalism, its America , under capitalism, and, in the face of , and in spite of, the brutal American style white racism , that black Americans have attained more wealth and power than any other black Afro diasporic culture in the Americas..yet this gets sluffed over as people say tear it down…which by the way, im answering various commenters notions on here not just one
the dictionary I looked at , a while back at my fathers house, was a huge dictionary, one bigger than you find at an average library, and its definition of imperialism was ” any country that overtly or covertly tries to alter the soverenty of another country…” , I looked and memorised it because who is calling who imperialist was very important to me at that time…and i stand by that definition…
and, Hugo Chavez, Farc ,Castros Cuba, the Soviet Union, Al Quada, Maos China, North Korrea etc, are as imperialistic as the USA…people can be in denial all they wish about it, but, that is why these agendised arguments about capitalism look very strange next to the facts…if anyone doesnt think these countries and entities havent engaged in imperialistic behavior, you are seriously naive
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Has anyone gotten around to defining or expressing what form “reparations” would take? What goals would be reached?
What would the “post-reparations” America look like?
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What would the “post-reparations” America look like?
Yes, downtown Gotham or Uranus. You can’t be taken seriously!
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The argument for reparations is a thin one and impractical. The mass of American people had no direct involvement in slavery or government policy and because one group is more disadvantaged it does not mean another is privileged. Poor whites were often as poor and powerless as blacks, many more so than wealthier blacks. The ‘benefit’ of racism to them was a comparatively small one. The balance was obviously in favour of whites (it is better to be poor and spat upon than poor and beaten with a stick) but the bulk of the population was not wealthy at any period of history, regardless of skin colour.
In addition why would you pay money to one of the wealthiest groups in the entire world? American blacks are extremely rich as a group in comparison to much of the rest of the world, including many ‘white’ countries. If you are serious about paying a debt it might be better to look at the victims, white, brown and black, of American imperialism which is still ongoing. However, I think blacks in America are going to be as keen in paying their money via taxes to foreigners of any hue as ordinary white Americans are going to be with a tax upon them to be paid to their possibly less fortunate fellow Americans.
And who gets any money? Do rich, biracial Americans get money? Would Obama get some cash to help him overcome the terrible burden of slavery and racism? Or would there be a quota, you get more the ‘blacker’ you are? Does having over a certain percentage of European white ancestry render you too much of the oppressor class and not enough of the oppressed? Most black Americans have roughly 20% (more or less depending on who is estimating) admixture, so racial purity cannot be the deciding factor. Does anyone with an all year tan count and how would you weed out all the Hispanics and other vaguely brown looking Americans who presumably didn’t suffer as badly and are not suffering now from this vicious legacy?
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@Brothawolf:
So can a “white” individual “give up white supremacy and privilege” personally and then be a true human being, which is what everyone *MUST* try to be, as in it is a fundamental responsibility and the root of all other responsibilities (if this responsibility is not taken up, then no other responsibility can truly be taken up)? Or are “white” individuals condemned by the condition of the society to be “not a true human being” no matter what they choose to do, until the society either self-destructs or the “white supremacy” in the society is finally eliminated, a process that will likely take hundreds of years (it was erected over 500 years) and therefore no white individual living today can ever be a true human being?
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Ally said:
In addition why would you pay money to one of the wealthiest groups in the entire world? American blacks are extremely rich as a group in comparison to much of the rest of the world, including many ‘white’ countries. If you are serious about paying a debt it might be better to look at the victims, white, brown and black, of American imperialism which is still ongoing.
Oooohh, I’m feeling woozy. I’m against reparations but I’m starting to get embarrassed at the ostensible company I’m in. Jesus Christ!
In addition why would you pay money to one of the wealthiest groups in the entire world?
^ What is that!!?? I’m too tired to check the list of logical fallacies to put a name to it but man that has got nothing to do with what we’re talking about. That stupid remark by Ally is in the same spirit (just way more creatively bizarre) as that idiocy about waiting for Rwandan Reparations to be paid first.
Also, EVERYONE MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION!!!
When you go in to work tomorrow ask to have a pay ceiling implemented on your salary forthwith!! Do it bitches!!!! After all, you’re all still richer than most of the rest of the world. IN FACT, ask for a pay cut.
But Ally, you’re stupid ass should go first. Well, what are you waiting for!?
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@ Herneith and Legion
ROFL
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Hey sb! People got around to that and then some during the time you were going on about nothing.
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at Legion and kiwi
You critcized the obviously rather stupid part of ally’s post, but his question who would eligible for reparations is still unanswered. When I first read the post I instantly thought that that would be the main problem and I hoped that somebody would come up with a solution. This was a lengthy discussion, but nobody did. Coates arguments about justice and healing make perfect sense and I guess he used the idea of reparations just as a means to raise awareness, but thought through they’re just impractical.
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@ Kiwi
Yeah, he has brought it up before. I have a vague memory of me or someone else or maybe Abagond himself buttressing the point by pointing out the demeaning lunacy of an abusive husband saying, “See babe!, I don’t beat you as badly as the other guy down the block.” Then again, it might have been in the Asian Atrocity thread where that wife beater example is from, but anyway, it’s all the same thing.
The other disgusting thing about that argument is the assumption that American blacks don’t actually belong in America. “You could be in some shit hole elsewhere in the world where you really belong, you know, so just shut up.”
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@ Kartoffel
Actually, I thought Linda had left an answer to that. Scroll up and check.
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Linda posted an article where the money for reparations should come from, did you mean that? That could be done, certain companies recently payed reparations to forced labourers in Germany. But it doesn’t solve the problem of who would get money.
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@ Kartoffel
What is the latest news calling for reparations by the Herero, Nama, Damara and San people of Namibia, former German colony?
This is for the genocide between 1904 to 1908 in SW Africa.
http://sun.com.na/content/national-news/genocide-reparations-raised-german-mp
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@ Abagond, thanks for the links.
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@ BR
You said:
I realise you are in favour of reparations. You said so.
But, has it occurred to you that I might ALSO find it frustrating that so much of what I say gets twisted around like it isn’t being read?
Unlike you, I no longer find it “incredible” because it’s done so much.
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Ally is quite right:
And who gets any money? Do rich, biracial Americans get money? Would Obama get some cash to help him overcome the terrible burden of slavery and racism? Or would there be a quota, you get more the ‘blacker’ you are? Does having over a certain percentage of European white ancestry render you too much of the oppressor class and not enough of the oppressed?
The debate on just this facet of reparations would never end. Thus, it appears there is no view of the form reparations might take. The inability to frame the situation is just one reason politicians have no desire or willingness to discuss the topic in a serious manner.
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ok, Bulanik, maybe we dont understand each other sometimes
just to clarify to everyone, I never brought up prosperity to say be satisfied or as an excuse, ive always said black Americans have struggled and paid the price against white racism to attain that prosperity, and that the struggle isnt over and im for reperations …
i use prosperity in the black American community in comparison with other AFro diasporic situations in the Americas to say the system has no need to be torn down, it needs to be dealt with on a regular basis to try to correct it…
people come in and say the system ought to be torn down and capitalism is the fault, and, I prove that that isnt the case….
referances to Soviet Union racism or, even contemporary Russions throwing banana peels on soccar feilds as racist gestures,or communist China banning afro diasporic ball room dances or Iran not allowing men and women to dance with Farrell, are important to understand racism world wide against the Afro diaspora and how it really works instead of just blaming capitalism….when you see the head of North Korrea calling Obama a monkey, a term not used as much in America, or proof Cuba has racism under the Castro communist dictatorship ,you know accuasations of capitalism as the cause of racism are sketchy…and that is why those examples are brought in and are relevant
people who want to tear down the USA system , but dont acknowledge the racism under communism and religious fundimentalism , should be scrutinised for their real agenda…as well as people who cant acknowledge the reality that there is black American wealth and power…its just intellectualy dishonest to pretend there isnt..
in the real discusion about reparations, just blaming capitalism in the American system is taking it down the wrong flawed road…and advocating to tear the system down, definitly requires solid reminders that black Americans are invested in that system and that there are big reasons to not tear it down , but, just be vigilante and to always be struggling to fix it
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@ Ally
1. As Coates makes clear, the sticking point is not the HOW of reparations but the SHOULD. If it were merely a matter of practical details, then why not pass HR 40? Any eventual reparations bill is going to be imperfect, a thing of political compromise, like everything else that comes out of Washington. If we only right wrongs when we can do it perfectly or universally (Rwanda, poor Whites, etc), Blacks would still be slaves.
2. Well-to-do Blacks should get reparations too. Many Blacks have good educations and make good money, but in general they have little generational wealth, even when compared to working-class Whites. After all, in 1960 most Blacks still lived in POVERTY. Many middle-class Blacks have nothing to fall back on. Many lost their homes in the Great Recession – because of predatory lending, because they are more likely to be thrown out of work and be out of work longer.
3. There is a simple way to determine who is Black: Any native-born American who marked him or herself as Black on the US Census before the reparations bill passed. If the Census was good enough for the Japanese American internment, when the country’s wartime safety was (supposedly) at stake, then it is good enough for reparations.
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The “Blacks are better off in the US” argument was used to defend SLAVERY. As Robert E. Lee put it in 1856:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/go-back-to-africa/
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@ Kiwi
Right, it is not about the absolute size of the piece of pie, but about Whites taking other people’s pieces.
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@ BR said:
Many thinkers, like Eric Williams, for instance, have already showed how industrial capitalism was to a large degree based upon slavery.
The argument isn’t that capitalism and slavery are the same:
the 2 systems are in opposition, because capitalism is based on free labour, slavery is not. Why you pointing the finger at mercantilism beats me: mercantilist regulations were gradually phased down during the 18th century in Britain.
By advocating the great benefits available to black people through capitalism and extolling its innocence in slavery, you are diminishing or, hiding the fact, that the 2 systems are very historically connected and that slavery was fundamental to capitalism’s development.
Even though the slave system, in itself, was not capitalist, it was key to the development of capitalism.
There was not only profit to be made in slaves themselves (sales from their bodies), but there was also profit in what they produced.
The USA’s economics “take off” in the 19th century has much to thank slavery for: commodified human beings was central to its success.
Weren’t cotton and slaves both regarded as “property”, and wasn’t capital investment in slaves higher than the value of land or any other capital worth at this time?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Capitalism-Slavery-Eric-Eustace-Williams/dp/0807844888/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402579764&sr=1-1&keywords=eric+williams
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@ BR
Okay. Black people are well-off under capitalism and have the potential to continue for greater economic advancement through it and this is dismissed because commenters are anti-capitalist.
But it seems, the capitalism that we know today used the coerced labour of enslaved Africans AS A TEMPLATE for how that wealth could be created.
This is not a new discovery, but American research has looked more closely at it to shed light on the the relationship between the systems that exist(ed) and how wealth and poverty was created:
“…A major financial crisis in 1837 revealed the interdependence of cotton planters, manufacturers and investors, and their collective dependence on the labor of slaves. Leveraged cotton — pledged but not yet picked — led overseers to whip their slaves to pick more, and prodded auctioneers to liquidate slave families to cover the debts of the overextended.
The plantation didn’t just produce the commodities that fueled the broader economy, it also generated innovative business practices that would come to typify modern management. As some of the most heavily capitalized enterprises in antebellum America, plantations offered early examples of time-motion studies and regimentation through clocks and bells. Seeking ever-greater efficiencies in cotton picking, slaveholders reorganized their fields, regimented the workday, and implemented a system of vertical reporting that made overseers into managers answerable to those above for the labor of those below.
The perverse reality of a capitalized labor force led to new accounting methods that incorporated (human) property depreciation in the bottom line as slaves aged, as well as new actuarial techniques to indemnify slaveholders from loss or damage to the men and women they owned. Property rights in human beings also created a lengthy set of judicial opinions that would influence the broader sanctity of private property in U.S. law.
So important was slavery to the American economy that on the eve of the Civil War, many commentators predicted that the North would kill “its golden goose.” That prediction didn’t come to pass, and as a result, slavery’s importance to American economic development has been obscured.
But as scholars delve deeper into corporate archives and think more critically about coerced labor and capitalism — perhaps informed by the current scale of human trafficking — the importance of slavery to American economic history will become inescapable.”
(Sven Beckert and Seth Rockman, historians at Harvard University and Brown University respectively, are co-editors of “Slavery’s Capitalism: A New History of American Economic Development,” University of Pennsylvania Press)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/24/slavery_n_4847105.html
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@ Bulanik
That is the latest I found, too. But I think reparations for colonialsim could be done more easily. The identity of the former Empire and the former colony are relativly clear, at least in the case of european empires overseas. Germany could pay the reparations just to government of Namibia. I’m all for it, as long as after the payment there is peace under the law (I looked that word up and have no idea if it makes sense in this context. I mean that there has to be a treaty that afterwards no more demands can be made).
Reperations within a nation are a lot more difficult. Who is the US government going to pay the money? Itself. If one would use the last census identification, there would still be recent african and carribean immigrants, whose ancestors haven’t been slaves (at least not in the US).
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@ Kartoffel
Who is the US government going to pay the money?
No, the US govt. can send a check to the address of each person who qualifies as a reparations payee. There’s no confusion over what to do when one is due a tax refund, “same difference!” (to quote a colloquialism).
Germany could pay the reparations just to government of Namibia.
They could but it would be highly unethical, as Namibia is significantly corrupt. If I owe you money and give it to a known brigand to give to you, I am definitely not prudent but I’m also unethical. I have a responsibility to pay you as safely and as directly as possible. This is true in private life and it should be just as true in public life.
Solutions?: A body with UN oversight set up for the purpose of disbursing Reparations.
——————-
Anyway, I still say take the US to the ICC.
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“Kartoffel
Linda posted an article where the money for reparations should come from, did you mean that? That could be done, certain companies recently payed reparations to forced labourers in Germany. But it doesn’t solve the problem of who would get money.”
Linda says,
Kartoffel, I indeed addressed this question about “who” gets reparations because to me, it’s a Very simple one.
to me, the only “native” black Americans are the people who can trace their African ancestry to arriving in the USA either as indentured servants, slaves, or free men and this would be before 1850s– people whose black African ancestors won’t have a green card, or a plane or ship ticket — many slave ships and owners kept records, so this information is traceable.
(and when I say, USA, I mean the the original 13 states and territories that would eventually grow to be the United States of America– I don’t mean the Caribbean or central/South America)
All legal immigrants to the USA have to (1) pay to get legal status (and it’s not cheap either), so that means we have a paper trail which shows when we or our forefathers entered the USA.
Anyway, here is my comment addressing this issue:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-235600
“AS for us black and brown immigrants from Africa, Caribbean, Europe, or South America… we know EXACTLY where we are coming from because our ancestor who immigrated to the US got off a plane or a ship and this information is passed down to each generation–dates and all.
that is the first thing that will differentiate who the “real” black Americans are and who is going to get reparations.
and don’t forget that there were free black Americans who were living in the northern States during slavery times, so obviously, black Americans who descended from these people would most likely be excluded from reparations. (if reparations were to be handed out based on the Sherman’s Field Order No. 15 and the Congressional bill in 1866)
Professor Louis Gates, Jr. has been able to trace people’s ancestors successfully in his ancestry researches, so it’s possible for black Americans to find out who and where their people came from in the USA.”
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I personally believe that reparations should be given to black Americans who are descendants from African-American slaves because the US government had passed a law, stating that they would receive land in compensation.
Here is my comment on that:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-235385
Reparations are for the African descendants whose African ancestors were in the US of America BEFORE mass immigration of Jews, Italiens, Irish and other European immigrants of the mid -1800′s and 1900′s…
these African-American slaves were made a promise by the Federal Government… a promise that was BROKEN.
The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’ – The promise was the first systematic attempt to provide a form of reparations to newly freed slaves
We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of “40 acres and a mule” was Union General William T. Sherman’s Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865.
With this Order, 400,000 acres of land — “a strip of coastline stretching from Charleston, South Carolina, to the St. John’s River in Florida, including Georgia’s Sea Islands and the mainland thirty miles in from the coast,” as Barton Myers reports – would be redistributed to the newly freed slaves.
Congress created the Freedmen’s Bureau shortly after Sherman’s Field Order No. 15 demanded the redistribution of land to former slaves.
The Freedmen’s Bureau was created to ensure that millions of free slaves would begin to receive economic equality and empowerment, their 40 acres and mule, shortly after the Civil War ended.
“The Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen, and Abandoned Lands was created by Congress in March 1865 to assist for one year in the transition from slavery to freedom in the South. The Bureau was given “the supervision and management of all abandoned lands, and the control of all subjects relating to refugees and freedmen, under such rules and regulations as may be presented by the head of the Bureau and approved by the President.
The bureau was run by the War Department, and its first and most important commissioner was General O.O. Howard, a Civil War hero sympathetic to blacks. The Bureau’s task was to help the Southern blacks and whites make the transition from slavery to freedom.
The Bureau was renewed by a Congressional bill in 1866 but was vetoed by President Andrew Johnson, who thought it was unconstitutional.
Johnson was opposed to having the federal government secure black rights. Congress passed the bill over his veto.
Southern whites were basically opposed to blacks having any rights at all, and the Bureau lacked military force to back up its authority as the army had been quickly disbanded and most of the soldiers assigned to the Western frontier.”
Even though Andrew Johnson, Lincoln’s successor and a sympathizer with the South, overturned the Order in the fall of 1865, the Congress passed the Freedmen’s Bureau act over his veto, so if this is the case, I believe the order for FB’s mandate to oversee Reparations is still legally on the books.
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Sorry, I overlooked that comment. I think the combination of your and abagond’s census idea could be workable. Eligible would be persons that can prove at least one slave ancestor and identified as black in the last census. Although I don’t like the idea of a government digging into its citizens’ ancestry, but that’s another topic.
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“Although I don’t like the idea of a government digging into its citizens’ ancestry, but that’s another topic.”
Linda says,
Don’t worry, the USA government has ALWAYS dug into it’s populations ancestry… they wanted to keep track of their Native Indian and “black” population, so their digging would be nothing new.
Remember, the US government made a “one drop law” in order to tell people who is “black” and who is “white”
The grandfather of “one drop rule” and (modern day USA thinking about race): Walter Ashby Plecker
a man who erased a group of people singlehandedly Overnight in the name of Eugenics and white supremacy and made it “illegal and a crime” to carry African genes and not announce it — he erased almost an entire native American tribe because they had intermixed with Africans.
http://hamptonroads.com/2004/08/blackandwhite-world-walter-ashby-plecker
Walter Ashby Plecker was the first registrar of Virginia’s Bureau of Vital Statistics, which records births, marriages and deaths. He accepted the job in 1912. For the next 34 years, he led the effort to purify the white race in Virginia by forcing Indians and other nonwhites to classify themselves as blacks
in 1924 when the General Assembly passed the Racial Integrity Act and a mandatory sterilization law that would be invoked 8,300 times over the next 55 years.
Although 31 states would pass eugenics laws, none was tougher than Virginia’s.
The Racial Integrity Act essentially narrowed race classifications on birth and marriage certificates to two choices: “white person” or “colored.” The law defined a white as one with no trace of black blood. A white person could have no more than a
1/16th trace of Indian blood – an exception, much to Plecker’s regret, legislators made to appease the descendants of Pocahontas and John Rolfe, who were considered among Virginia’s first families.
The act forbade interracial marriage and lying about race on registration forms. Violators faced felony convictions and a year in prison.
In January 1943, he sent a list of common surnames from each of the state’s tribes to local officials where the clans lived. He instructed them that anyone with those names must be classified and treated as “negro.”
He pressured superintendents to remove children from white schools based on complaints that they had “negro” features. “As to deciding the point of race, you and the sheriff, and any other intelligent citizen of your community, are as capable of judging from the appearance of the child as the most learned scientist,” Plecker wrote one superintendent. “There is absolutely no blood or other test to determine the question.”
Plecker demanded the removal of bodies from white cemeteries. He tried to evict a set of twins from a Presbyterian orphanage because they were illegitimate and, therefore, the “chances are 10-1 they are of negro blood.”
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I know that the US government did that in the past and other governments do it today. Recently we were discussing that Germany keeps track if people have immigrant ancestors. I don’t like that either, but at least it goes back only one generation. If that is outweight by the benefits of reparations is a political decision, on which I haven’t made up my mind.
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“”the 2 systems are in opposition, because capitalism is based on free labour, slavery is not. Why you pointing the finger at mercantilism beats me: mercantilist regulations were gradually phased down during the 18th century in Britain.”
its the opisite isnt it ? slavery is based on free labor and capitalism is not
you seem to be making my point…mercantilist regulatiosn were phased out at the same time slavery was being abolished…
I have to respectivly disagree with Eric Williams
“Seeking ever-greater efficiencies in cotton picking, slaveholders reorganized their fields, regimented the workday, and implemented a system of vertical reporting that made overseers into managers answerable to those above for the labor of those below.”
these are techniques more suited to commuinist labor practices, these beaurocratic techniques were aplied to Mao’s back to the feilds agricultural revolution and because of its stiffness and verticle reporting, lies were told to please the top people and ideological mandates were sent down that ended up starving 30 million people…and this is what i mean that in slavery, you find both infatile elements of capitalism and communism…the plantation is like a commuinist dictatorship, it could all most be North Korrea now…everything done for the state /estate…
I cant help it if there are a lot of politicly agendised so called intellectuas trying to push the reasons they hate capitalism…they arnt getting it right, especialy trying to tie capitalism as the origin of racism and slavery…Chomsky is another, the guy bends the truth…there is too much blatent proof that capitalism is not the origin of slavery and racism, the religions are much more to blame…no one is denying fortunes were made during slavery, that is why i am for reparations, and because of the blatent festering wounds down into today that the legacy of slavery brought…that doesnt mean that had anything to do with modern day capitalism…its the white racist managing of capitalism that taints it …and it is proven laws in the work place can address that..capitalism can correct itself if people want to..it can be regulated, it can have a concience, and black Americans can succeed in capitalism, especialy if you get the obstacles of racism seperated…in real capitalism , you should have a level playing feild, the fact there isnt means racism is messing with Americas capitalism , just like predatory capitalism is messing with American capitalism, and , these things can be faced if people really want to…and people have been…i dont want hyper predatory racist capitalism
Abagond, you totaly dont understand my point bringing in Lees quote, that is not what im saying, im saying anyone who thinks they ought to destroy the American system , needs to know black Americans have gained wealth and prosperity in the USA in bigger numbers than any other country in the Americas with the same slave past dynamic..saying I think there should be reparations and that the legacy of slavery and racism come into today obviously means im not using that as an argument to not pay reparatiosn or deny racism , its to say its a better system than any go to hades marxist system you can dish up…so notions of tearing down the system are sensationalist oriented..
and then the argument of what black Americans have gained in spite of racism are very valid , especialy since i think the majority of black Americans want to tear down the racist system not the American system
if you cant understand what i am saying, this time, please ask me to explain it further, because you butchered the meaning i intended and people who just throw out rhetorical dogmad answers to an argument that that answer wasnt meant for, arnt really listening or just want to undermine the real meaning
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“I cant help it if there are a lot of politicly agendised so called intellectuas trying to push the reasons they hate capitalism…”
Like who, BR.
Eric Williams, the former Prime Minister of Trindad and Tobago, and historian?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/10/18/eric-williams/
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he brought in a description of Marxist style work practice calling it capitalism…people can be very knowledgable and intelligent and get it wrong..Chomsky does…polititions defintilly get it wrong
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But what “agenda” are you talking about again and again?
What do you mean?
And who exactly do you mean?
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And NO, I am not making YOUR point.
This is what I mean about taking what I say, and trying to make it sound like something else. You do it every time, BR. Every time. Without fail.
I said this, in fact:
“By advocating the great benefits available to black people through capitalism and extolling its innocence in slavery, you are … hiding the fact, that the 2 systems are very historically connected and that slavery was fundamental to capitalism’s development.”
You have picked ONE line, as usual, and now it’s gonna run and run.
That was not my point.
That was not what I said.
This was was the comment in full:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/ta-nehisi-coates-the-case-for-reparations/#comment-237696
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Capitalism just was a differant era than slavery…people are trying to take mercantile practices that existed several thousands of years , had slavery, money transactions, power conquering and stealing of wealth…
wealth had been developed all kinds of ways around the world and so, wealth was generated in the colonies also…from 16 until late 17, in North America, that was going to Great Britain also…the industrial revolution and capitalism and commuinism and other European thought changed the game ,actualy , corporations were formed out of laws meant for freed slaves…there was still great inequity and still is, and of course, great wealth was built on slavery that comes down into today…so that is why I can see reasons for reparations…there is no real basis for some huge condemnation of capitalism in America, and to tear it down , its the racism in capitalism that needs to be torn down..and the hyper predatory capitalism that has proved to do great damage…we can only examine how greed and power can corrupt all levals and that is what we should be trying to struggle against
Castro has that power wealth, and greed and you cant really struggle against him , and his country has racism …that is one of the differances…there is diologue in the USA…and more diologue about white racism against black America than most places…you dont have diologue in North Korrea, very little in Cuba…Brazil is slow but trying. but, compared to the USA system, black Americans have a much stronger platform, forged in the steel of struggle and opresion, and they have more wealth and power…you cant sluff that off as a reason to destroy the American capitalist system
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Bulanik, Im bringing in direct quotes and answering them..you just have to deal with it
you think they are connected, im saying slavery has elements of both of them in it, and i have addressed that..so i am addressing your point..get off the false accusing..no i dont agree that only capitalism is connected to slavery…all the elements that would make up the political economic future were in play
its people like that author you brought in and what you are trying to prove , that dont want to accept that and go off on their agendised tagents to implicate capitalism…and you all arnt getting it right…and communism killed much larger numbers than slavery or capitalism so it has its own special place , again i dont consider slavery deaths capitalist deaths, they are deaths from slavery
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To Legion,
You think my point stupid, I would return the compliment. All Americans are wealthy in comparison with most of the rest of the world, particularly those countries which suffer from current American imperialism, which is a more understated, veiled form than older styles of imperialism like the British Empire.
I would suggest that if you are going to start handing out money to disadvantaged people there are much more deserving and pressing cases than anyone born and bred in the States who have far greater access to wealth and welfare than other nationalities, even if not at the same level as some Western Europeans. Acute poverty is simply not a factor in North America any more.
It also begs the question where do you draw the line? If you adhere to an essentially Marxist principle of oppressor and oppressed are you going to start paying money to people who suffered class injustice? If you are out to divide the pie more equally there are many people of all races who aren’t getting their fair slice and who have ‘inherited’ their relatively low status going back generations.
To Abagond,
Any bill is going to be extremely divisive as all reparations are. It will cause great bitterness, whether that is justified or not. I hardly think race relations need a helping hand in making them more strained than they are already at the moment in the US. However, if I thought it justified that alone wouldn’t stop me supporting reparations.
There is a very strong argument that if better off blacks don’t have assets it is because they haven’t created any. Blacks as a group are not good at saving and Americans as a nation are poor at saving in comparison to the Chinese, which is why the US is indebted to the Chinese to the tune of several billion. There really is very little excuse for any American earning a decent wage not to have assets and savings. Many people of all races with money now started from the bottom and have not inherited wealth. Lots of people of all races lost money in the recession and the Great Depression. Poverty may possibly have been worse for blacks but it was not a uniquely black problem. I disagree with your reading of past and present economics.
I can see large numbers of people stating that they are black on the US census if reparations looks likely to happen after the next census date and the government follows your model. After all, lots of American ‘whites’ have black blood in them, just as most American ‘blacks’ have white blood in them. Can the racist Craig Cobb at 14% black switch sides and become a legatee of slavery, Jim Crow and institutionalised racism? Presumably that 14% has suffered the ill effects of those even if the other 86% was privileged. I foresee the vast bulk of the American population suddenly becoming ‘brothas’ and ‘sistas’ if all that is needed is a self declaration of race to get a cash prize.
But perhaps you have a point. If everyone suddenly self identifies as black maybe things might actually change. It would be an interesting experiment.
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BR, just a few queries…
–When did mercantile practices start? You are saying I000s of years ago.
Which era, exactly?
.
— “slavery is based on free labor and capitalism is not”, how didn’t you know that before?
— and if you’re so sure that slavery was in a different era than capitalism, tell us when capitalism started?
— YOU say that how great wealth was developed from slavery, but you don’t say how?
— And if as you say, corporations were formed out of laws meant for freed slaves…explain why freed slaves didn’t use the veil of incorporation to protect them?
They’re just questions. Deal with them.
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As Ally points out, the arguments over every point in the process of developing a reparations plan will go on forever and conclude with nothing.
Meanwhile, inasmuch as many people believe the US will become a “minority majority” country later in this century, by that time the white wealth that reparations would tap will have moved to more favorable, less hostile precincts.
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Bulanik:
– “slavery is based on free labor and capitalism is not”, how didn’t you know that before?
– and if you’re so sure that slavery was in a different era than capitalism, tell us when capitalism started?
Industrial capitalism, as outlined by Adam Smith, is expressively against both slavery and imperialism. (Smith was a strong critic of both…) The central components of industrial capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets and wage labor. The latter two are highly distorted or don’t exist under slavery.
The institution of slavery in the US was more akin (or a nastier outcome of) to European feudalism, with the serfs tied to the land for generations and living at the whims of the lord.
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@ Ally
One of the main points Coates makes is that even when Blacks work hard and play by the rules, it is harder for them to accumulate wealth than for Whites. Wells Fargo, for example, targeted BLACKS for predatory lending. During the Great Recession, the wealth gap between Blacks and Whites DOUBLED, which means Blacks were hit much harder.
As to the Census, clearly you would have to back to a census when people did not know reparations were likely.
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What is most strange, BR, is that I am wondering why the work of black scholars (like Eric Williams) on slavery isn’t good enough for you.
Eric Williams argued against the Eurocentric model of analysis.
You seem to be promoting it. Why?
Eric Williams believed: Slavery helped finance the Industrial Revolution in England. Plantation owners, shipbuilders, and merchants connected with the slave trade accumulated vast fortunes that established banks and heavy industry in Europe and expanded the reach of capitalism worldwide.
And through his study, he identified the role of slavery in financing the Industrial Revolution….firmly establishing the centrality of the African slave trade in European economic development.
You reject this.
Further: you say that if, in the past, there were greater efficiencies found in cotton picking, and the regimentation of the workday — then this was a practice “more suited to commuinist labor practices”.
Actually, no. They were capitalist practices that were ORIGINALLY developed to exact the utmost exploitation from enslaved Africans.
You explain “how greed and power can corrupt all levals and that is what we should be trying to struggle against”, yet — this mechanism is the one which you advocate.
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Milton, yes, Smith WAS against both. He is quite specific in WoN.
My questions to BR are focused on points about the mercantilism of 1000s of years ago.
Whilst you are at it, why not tackle BR’s premises, too.
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Milton, as for “The institution of slavery in the US was more akin (or a nastier outcome of) to European feudalism, with the serfs tied to the land for generations and living at the whims of the lord.”
Don’t you mean “share-cropping” was more aking to serfdom?
Or, for that matter: the forced labor of imprisoned black men and women through the convict lease system used by states, local governments, white farmers, and corporations after the American Civil War until World War II
* Slavery by another name: Douglas Blackmon
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Wait a minute Bulanik – with regard to the whole Eric Williams thesis – didn’t Engerman et al debunk that stuff?
http://premodeconhist.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/eltis-d-and-engerman-s-l-2000-british-industrialization-and-the-slave-trade/
http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2006/11/engerman_on_sla.html
http://lecollegebilingue-dakar.net/gepi-1.5.1/documents/cl331/The_Importance_of_Slavery_and_the_Slave_Trade_to_Industrializing_Britain.pdf?GEPI=581d9f88fe3f6d832bf621e2ac3c85a8
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@ Ally
You think my point stupid, I would return the compliment. All Americans are wealthy in comparison with most of the rest of the world, particularly those countries which suffer from current American imperialism, which is a more understated, veiled form than older styles of imperialism like the British Empire.
I would suggest that if you are going to start handing out money to disadvantaged people there are much more deserving and pressing cases than anyone born and bred in the States who have far greater access to wealth and welfare than other nationalities, even if not at the same level as some Western Europeans. Acute poverty is simply not a factor in North America any more.
It isn’t the point whether there are worse off or better off people elsewhere in the world. Your argument is barren of any morality. Your argument is as disgusting as someone defending the degradations at Guantanomo Bay by saying at least it’s not a Nazi concentration camp or a Japanese run POW camp during WWII.
Did you read the exchange between me and Kiwi? It should have been enough to make you shut up.
It also begs the question where do you draw the line?
Yeah, you know what it does open that up. I’m not frightened of an examination of ethics and morality. You afraid of finding out the world is a lot more corrupt than you want to believe? Guess what the Reparations issue is a L-A-R-G-E 1000lbs WOOLY MAMMOTH! You better believe it.
You know what I have looked into in the last few days but didn’t bring to the thread (possible derailment)? Reparations for Vietnam due to the Vietnam War. You better believe America has A LOT to answer for. The unexploded American ordnance in South East Asia is still killing and maiming to this very day and dampened the economy of the region from what it might have been. American blacks must examine and press their reparations claim independently of other “more deserving” victims. Vietnam must press it’s claims against the US independently of whether others are “more deserving” than they are. Reparations are not a lottery ticket and they are not a reward for who is most virtuous, they are an attempt at approximating justice where a massive crime is believed to have been done.
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To Bulanik:
Don’t you mean “share-cropping” was more aking to serfdom?
The conditions of serfs varied over time and from country to country,but serfdom,in many Eastern European countries, unlike share cropping, was an inheritable condition as was chattel slavery in the Americas. Also serfs in the East could be sold apart from the land. (In Western Europe someone could purchase a parcel of land and the serfs that worked it, but generally there was no market for serfs..) There were also laws that prevented serfs from marrying out of their class.
A common form of punishment for serfs in Russia who disobeyed their master:
I am not saying European serfdom was the exact equivalent to new world slavery or to lessen the historic treatment of black slaves in the Americas, but while examining both systems one can reasonably conclude that slavery in the new world was at least partially derived from the European feudal system. The slave owners of the Americas were quite aware of the (Eastern) European feudal system and there are multiple comparisons between the two systems written in the 17th through 19th centuries.
Whilst you are at it, why not tackle BR’s premises, too.
Ok.. I;ll try.
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Are we sure that sharecropping debts could not be inherited or transferred to children? Sharecropping (US style) is similar to tenant farming, but still very different in practice. I am looking up to see if there was any inheritable element to US sharecropping. If debt is inheritable, then it is more akin to serfdom than to tenant farming.
Whether or not debt was inheritable, parents accumulated so much debt that they could never work it off. Children would end up inheriting debts even if not technically so on paper.
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@ally:
“I would suggest that if you are going to start handing out money to disadvantaged people there are much more deserving and pressing cases than anyone born and bred in the States who have far greater access to wealth and welfare than other nationalities, even if not at the same level as some Western Europeans. Acute poverty is simply not a factor in North America any more.”
Are you kidding? There are, depending on how one wishes to calcuate, more than 30 million poor in USA. 27 million who can not read. Millions without proper housing. There are millions and millions of americans without any healthcare. And you think “acute poverity is no longer a factor in North America”?
The american welfare depends in which state you live in. In some you get social support only for certain time, then it is all over. The “social support network” of the poor americans is based on handouts and alms. There is not social support network as there is in most european countries. There is no universal healthcare in USA as there is in most european countries, even though american corporate lawyers and american politicians are working hard at the moment to bring down all of these via the “Free Trade Agreements”.
The US politicians, economists etc. have stated publicly for over 25 years that so-called european model of the society is “unfair” to the americans and won’t last. If it does not collapse (it did not) then it must be brought down. Actually this campaign began during the Reagan years and now, finally, it is gaining ground in Europe. This, of course, has lead into what that social model was built to stop in the first place: the re-birth of neo-fascism and communism.
The american poverity is directly connected to the slavery system. Slavery was a way to keep the costs down. Instead of paying salaries for professional or even un-professional work force, you had the slaves who were an investment. Like the robots in factories today, slaves could and did keep the salaries in check and also created counter balance to any demands of wage increases etc. This same system was in effect also in Russia where the millions of people were in practise owned by their masters and church. Even Tolstoi was said to have “owned” thousands of “souls”.
The use of slavery freed profits to be invested into other projects such as finances, banking, realestate etc. You did not have to pay salaries, which encreased the profit margin. You only had to “maintain” your “machines” (that is slaves) just like in any industry. Naturally when the supply of slaves decreased, the “machines” became more valuable, but never the less, they were just that: the machines in the system producing profits for the owners.
What the slavery solidified of course was the class of the working poor. Poor white trash became to be simply because nobody was willing to pay for their services. The mechanism to keep the level of salaries down was slavery. That was the key. So when ever extra labour was needed it was temporary, short term and usually very low pay. Slavery made all this possible.
Slavery also created the model for the handling of the work force in USA. If you look at how the chinese were treated in the railroads or mexicans in the south west, you see the parallels. The attitude of the capitalis owners was that of the slave owners. In their mind and eyes, workers were nothing but slaves. Just like the industrialists who saw it fit that they closed the female workers into their factories behind bars in New York in early 1900’s. But post-slavery “slavery” was even better because now you had practical slave force without the invesment of capital in it. This was kept up by the immigration of the poor uneducated people from Europe. The surplus in labour markets kept the salaries down.
So many of the practises and attitudes in american labour markets and system come from slavery. There are still the sweat shops in which the work force are working just like the slaves did, earning just enough to survive. There are millions of immigrants outside any official system exploited by whom ever needs their work. There are sill the millions of blacks without proper housing and education, in their own living quarters, to be exploited by the ones who want keep down the salaries etc.
All this is a result of the slavery. Direct result of the centuries of slavery. The very definition of slavery is: you can not effect into your work, you receive money just to sustain your life, you can not choose your work etc. This is the situation in which millions of americans are still today.
Moneywise the reparations would not be that substancial, I think. But they would be an admission of the slavery and by the system which was created by the slavery.
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@BR:
You seem to be hell bent ot prove that there are/were racists in communist countries too. Of course there was and there are. You think centuries of racism is wiped out just like that?
Lets take an your favorite example Cuba. You seem to imply that the communists invented or created the racism in Cuba. Are you kidding? Look at the history of the island. It was litterally based on racism, from the wipe out of the native people of it to the centuries of slavery. And you think that revolution in 1959 should have wiped out the racist traditions. Well, yes it could have, if they would have killed all inhabitants.
Before the revolution there was an cuban apartheid in practise. Certain groups of people could not walk in to certain hotels or casinos etc. There were hotels, casinos, nightclubs and restaurants which catered only white american tourists etc. There were airlines which did not take black/mixed race passangers etc.
So when you claim that communists created or somehow boosted the racism in Cuba, it simply is not true. Cuba was created by the centuries of slavery and the racism created to explain that to the christian world.
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Satanforce , very interesting links …if anything , they prove there is compelling debate about those issues
Bulanik , mercantilusm is a western term , but , humans have been mining for gold for thousands of years , and trading , and conquering and taking slaves , and accumulating wealth…I dont question wealth was accumalated in Great Britain and America from slavery , I question capitalism is the cause of racism and slavery…
The absurdity of the implications that racism is caused by capitalism , is ask yourself if all capitalism was eliminated would racism be eliminated ? And you know it wouldnt ….or you cant look racism in the eye and discover its true nature….anti capitalism advocates are super imposing their agendas over racism and slavery…and sluffing over its true nature
To continue dealing with your questions , Bulanik , you are the one who said “capitalism is based on free labor…” and I implied you must have accidently turned it around…you are going in circles about something you wrote
And , yes , as Satanforces links prove , their is ample reason to challenge Williams…my challenge was to his exact statement you brought in , and , how ironic it relates much more to Mao communist China and how 30 million starved to death under the beaurocratic ideologic work ethic and verticle manegement practices that caused those deaths…it couldnt have made my point any better….as many of your arguments only make my point
You have to realise , these anti capitalists , trying to attribute racism and slavery to capitalism , are building their intellectual house of cards arguments on weak foundations , so there are holes in the arguments…
Sami , again , you prove my point , racism and slavery were set in place before communism or capitalism , communism doesnt address racism in its fundimentals , therefor, it cant eliminate it…
Slavery and racism in the African diaspora has to be addressed on its own terms , not clouded up by political agendas , and this is directly related to white people thinking black African people were culturaly inferior and worthy of slavery , and religion was a big catylist to crack the whip of inventing racism
Unless you look at this cultural racism dead in the eye , you will just go around in ideological circles ….this is why communism doesnt cure racism.
And Sami, why have you conveniantly never researched what is going on in Castros Cuba , where only recently have they just allowed Cubans the right to go and stay in hotels on the side of the island that the foreigners stay in the resort hotels ….you will find the Cuban prostitutes over there on the beach , all the ones Castro makes such a huge deal about that he got rid of from Batista
Either you are really naive about it or your anti capitalist bias has clouded your brain so much, you will just lie or say any old thing without thinking about it
You could eliminate all capitalism and racism would still exist….you can bring the Afro diaspora into communism or capitalism , but , if you just make them act white , and implicate that their culture and cultural behavior is not compatible , even inferior, the problem of racism wont be cured and prejudice , discrimination and bias will continue…cultural racism is the biggest obstacle facing the Afro diaspora in the Americas right now
By the way , Sami , some of your reasons you gave to Ally , is why Im in favor of reparations…Im tired of the festering wounds and I dont like hyper predatory capitalism ….but tear down the American capitalist system ? Not in my lifetime….tear down racism , especialy cultural racism and make a leval playing feild….
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@ UM,
Learning about serfs is standard fayre in Europe’s classrooms, usually in first year (10 to 12 years old)…but thank you for the lesson! 😀
You seem to mention only the differences; I thought there were similarities, too, between share-cropping and serfdom. I might come back to this, if time allows. It might not.
@ sami parkkonen
The racism and racist history of Cuba was clearly explained. For instance, upthread I mentioned:
“This was the place that practiced blanqueamiento (whitening and “improving” ones’ race by striving to marry white, and have white and ever whiter children) just as much as Dominicanos or Colombians, and had a white elite.
Mental colonialism.
Just like the other nations in the region, if not now, then at one time.
After all, whose labour was Cuba built upon? Whose land was Cuba originally? Who held the wealth in Cuba?”
But that was ignored, skipped over and painted in other colours again and again to steer the conversation in the desired direction away from the facts.
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@ Satan — haven’t read Engerman. But let me go to my meetings, and catch up later.
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To Legion,
You do seem to get all hot and bothered and very indignant for little reason. Perhaps you can take a moment to become somewhat calmer before you respond to this. I’m sure getting so hysterically angry is not good for you.
I don’t believe you have made a case that is any more ‘moral’ than mine. I really have no problem viewing the world as corrupt and amoral or corrupt and immoral. I very much doubt you have a bleaker view of the human race than my own. That does not mean I have any interest in backing nonsensical, impractical schemes such as race reparations.
If you look carefully at my posts you will see I have mentioned American imperialism as a more pressing problem so I don’t have any moral argument against America paying money to the many, many countries in whose affairs the US has interfered to the great cost of the majority of people of those countries. There are too many countries to list, but Vietnam is probably top of the list, given the genocide that occurred there at the hands of the Americans under Kennedy and Nixon in particular. Reagan’s escapades south of the border are also pressing matters and part of a very long trend.
Even then it would not be an easy matter to prove US influence was entirely negative. It might be possible to get public opinion in favour of these reparations but it would involve a radical change in the way the corporate media operates which would of course attempt to squash any such agenda. If you are serious about doing anything you need to have an actual plan of how it would work. Otherwise it is just empty, impractical theorising and self congratulatory rhetoric. It is so easy to think the ‘right’ way and become self righteous, condemning the ignorance, folly and viciousness of other people without doing anything that will ever make the world a better and fairer place and which could even make things worse.
I did not read your exchange with Kiwi and I seriously doubt anything you say could make me shut up. You simply don’t have it in you and I am never silenced by insults. I totally fail to see the analogy between the case for and against reparations and concentration camps. No doubt it made sense to you but then so much does.
My argument against reparations for slavery is that everyone who was a victim of American slavery is long dead. To prove that slavery is the reason that modern blacks are generally poorer than whites is a much more difficult and complex issue. Many believe there is a direct link but I, and many others, remain less convinced. I think it is almost certainly a factor in creating a dangerous and self destructive culture among blacks in the US. However, many things have actually got worse in recent decades not better which have little to do with slavery, although you could possibly argue that they result from racism. Black employment was much higher at one stage and that has nothing to do with slavery one way or another. Dealing with modern day institutionalised racism (if it does exist) would seem more sensible than cash handouts because someone’s ancestors were enslaved. If you go back far enough probably everyone would have ancestors who were enslaved as slavery was never respectful of race, nationality or religion and was practised by Africans, Americans, Asians and Europeans with equal vigour.
Many groups have been exploited and ill treated in the US over the centuries. I think to be consistent you would need to consider every case and claim if you are seriously in the business of making the country and fairer and more just place.
To Abagond,
You would be very likely to create a perfect storm of legal battles as vast numbers of people would sue the state for the right to have their ‘blackness’ backdated to a previous census to count them in for any goodies that are going. If you really are choosing to advocate for the imposition of reparations you need to think it through from every possible angle. If you think it won’t cause absolute mayhem you are a much greater optimist than I.
Quite why it is harder for blacks to save money than for any other race or nationality in America is a mystery to me. If Eastern European Jews and penniless Koreans could do it why can’t black people? Why do recent African and Caribbean immigrants generally do better than blacks born in the US? There is unlikely to be a special system for them.
Wells Fargo may well have exploited black people but the blacks didn’t have to take on the loans. Their own responsibility in this cannot and should not be overlooked. There are plenty of loan sharks out there at all times, only the foolish and the feckless generally get involved with them.
You would also need to analyse statistics from the Depression carefully to look at all the factors involved. If whites generally had a culture of saving then they would survive better for longer when unemployed. If there were more whites in government jobs, in the civil service etc. not immediately dependent on collapsing markets and industry then the wealth gap could be explained in ways which do not point to slavery or overt racism as any type of direct cause. There might be all sorts of reasons and exceptions to prove or disprove anything based on those particular statistics. After all feminists have ‘proved’ there is a wage gap despite all evidence to the contrary.
To sami parkkonen,
Poverty is relative. The poverty suffered by some blacks in modern day in America is relative wealth in comparison to what some whites suffered in centuries past and is real wealth for those living on a dollar or less a day.
I come from a country with a decent state healthcare system and more generous welfare state and would wish that such safety nets were in place in the States. However, the problems of poverty in America are not simply race based, even if more darker skinned people suffer from them in percentage terms. They are class based and many whites suffer what is considered poverty in Western terms in many countries. That is not poverty in the same sense suffered in Third World countries where people really do starve to death.
I don’t see reparations making any real difference to those problems long term and if you are serious in eradicating poverty in the US I would suggest that there are much better ways of doing it than reparations which should, according to Abagond, be paid to affluent blacks but not to more financially desperate whites, simply because their long dead relatives worked on the plantations.
There is an argument that slavery did not actually keep any costs down or make much difference to the industrial revolution. Certainly outside America and the Caribbean, where slaves were not used in plantations, slaves were a financial drain to their owners. It has been estimated that industries that benefited from slave labour in Britain amounted to only 2% of the UK’s income at the time and Britain spent far more fighting slavery and policing the ban on the slave trade for decades after abolition. I doubt slavery was ever the basis for US wealth and prosperity either. It was more or less localised to the South, which was a relatively backward collection of states and was not widely practised by all Southerners, only a group of plantation owners for the most part. Many of those plantation owners were frequently in debt and rarely invested money in the way that Northern industrialists did.
I don’t think you needed slavery to treat the working class badly. All you needed was a lack of legislation to protect workers and no unions or restrictions of union activities. The British working class were exploited without any slavery on British soil since serfdom. And even if your argument is true you are then pushing for a more general system of payments for anyone who ever had an ancestor who was ill treated and exploited at any time which is pretty much everybody. You would then need some sort of means test to determine who really needs the money, unless like Abagond you want everyone of whatever wealth to be compensated (although I am sure he wouldn’t want that to apply to anyone other than blacks).
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First, Alley, when slaves were freed, they were dumped out into the world with nothing, which is differant from most immigrants arriving, who usualy have some network of people from their country to hook up with and they ususualy have some recource…I see the legacy of slavery in total effect in the Americas , with concequenses that come down into today…i would love to see those festering woulds addressed…every Afro descendant in a poor neighborhood deserves a good school and good health care and we have to address racism in the work place and hiring practices and pay scales…
Second, when the other side in the international conflicts America was in also decide to pay for the victoms in those wars then it will be fair for America to be involved in something like that…anything in South America , that the USA was involved with, had people on the other side getting support and arms and money and training from other players also…all sides are responsible for the conflicts in the cold war…if reparations are to be paid, all sides need to admit their part and contribute
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Has any other organization taken it upon itself to study reparations for AfAm and/or released any proposals?
I’d be interested in reading that.
I agree with Coates that America’s unwillingness to explore reparations for AfAm is rooted in “something more existential”.
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B. R.,
Small point but I am an Ally without an ‘e’.
Some slaves were dumped with nothing, some were not. Some blacks were never slaves at all. Even if the vast majority of black Americans were slaves and were badly treated it is still a very long time ago and blacks are not unique as a group in being ill treated. To believe that reparations are even worth discussing you have to believe that slavery has an absolutely direct effect on black people’s lives today given that it is not possible to give money to the actual sufferers, or their children, or even their grandchildren.
That notion sounds highly improbable to me given all that has happened over the last 150 years. I simply cannot accept that slavery, which ended 15 decades ago is responsible for failures within the present day black community. Many oppressed groups and some minorities have managed to gain success in various societies, often in the teeth of aggression and prejudice. No blacks today suffer the level of racism and oppression that existed in the middle of the 19th century, or even the middle of the 20th century.
If you imagine that any ‘festering wounds’ are going to be healed by reparations you are, like Abagond, an enormous optimist. I think it far more likely to generate plenty of new wounds and divisions when implemented. I wonder if many people really want to open that particular can of worms, to mix my metaphors a little. You can also address any racism which still exists in the States as well as poor health care and poor schools without resorting to reparations. Indeed it is highly unlikely reparations would to much to improve those issues at all.
As to the US paying compensation for its war crimes and international terrorism, there is no reason not to do the right thing (assuming it is the right thing) simply because other countries have not owned up to their crimes. The Japanese are bad at this but in reality little worse than the Americans or the British in their reluctance to call a crime a crime. It is just that because the allies won the war their crimes were not counted as such. War crimes are only what ‘we’ don’t do and what ‘they’ do. That was made explicit at Nuremberg and used by some Germans as a successful defence. Admittedly the allies seldom came close to the level of sadism displayed by the Germans and Japanese but that is hardly an excuse for ‘our’ crimes.
America so often prides itself on its ethics and loves to portray itself as a shining beacon of democracy and moral leadership. If it actually wants anyone to believe that particular fairy tale it might help if the US government lived up to its own advertising. It is also very hard to argue that US actions in Central and South America was anything other than terrorism and imperialism. The people on ‘the other side’ as you like to call them were generally the population of the country. If they had some financial support from the Soviet Union on occasion that hardly means that Russia should hand out money for supporting these people’s fight against illegal US backed regime change and propping up dictators obedient to Washington rather than their own populace. It is a different matter in those countries in which Russia took a greater hand and interfered in a manner similar to the Americans.
I wonder that your heart bleeds so much for black people at home and so little for brown, white and black people abroad. If you yourself are a black American there is an obvious explanation but I will not be so rude to mention it. If you are white I cannot account for it at all.
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@ Ally
I did not read your exchange with Kiwi and I seriously doubt anything you say could make me shut up. You simply don’t have it in you and I am never silenced by insults. I totally fail to see the analogy between the case for and against reparations and concentration camps. No doubt it made sense to you but then so much does.
If you look carefully at my posts you will…
If you reread carefully, you’ll see I made no analogy between reparations and concentration camps. The analogy was between your argument that reparations should not be sought by blacks because there are worse off others somewhere is as barren as a criminal who wants his victim to likewise look elsewhere for worse off victims and let the criminal off the hook. It’s the bottom of the barrel in terms of ethics, the very bottom.
————————
In your sixth paragraph you give a new argument, so actually it does seem you have shut up on the previous argument which I and some others saw as terribly wanting. You finally are making some sense in the sixth paragraph:
My argument against reparations for slavery is that everyone who was a victim of American slavery is long dead. To prove that slavery is the reason that modern blacks are generally poorer than whites is a much more difficult and complex issue. Many believe there is a direct link but I, and many others, remain less convinced. I think it is almost certainly a factor in creating a dangerous and self destructive culture among blacks in the US.
The rest was interesting too but I want to keep my comment as short as possible, so I won’t re-quote it all. Anyway, that’s your new argument. It is not off the wall like the previous one. You don’t have to be in favour of reps, you don’t have to be against, but whichever way a person comes down it’s better to have a sensible reason for one’s position.
Reading your sixth paragraph, I’m reminded again that the meaning of Reparations is a very personal thing. We, myself included, need to be careful of the meaning we assign reparations, it guides us as to supporting Reparations or not supporting it. We might be wrong and not know we are wrong. For my own part, it is starting to look like I am against a pay cheque form of reparations but not actually against some sort of Reparations. Linda’s basis for Reparations comes down to just a simple broken promise, not stuff about slavery did this and that. The meaning that gets officially assigned to Reparations (particularly if they ever get paid out) will have to be very well chosen by American blacks. The “broken promise” meaning is very straightforward. The “slavery is affecting me right now” meaning (the woman in Kwamla’s video was giving a version of that) would have really terrible fall out for blacks.
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abagond:
One of the main points Coates makes is that even when Blacks work hard and play by the rules, it is harder for them to accumulate wealth than for Whites. Wells Fargo, for example, targeted BLACKS for predatory lending.
Ah, NO, there’s no such thing as Predatory Lending. Interestingly, the long-running complaint involved redlining — which did happen — though not for the commonly shared, but mistaken reasons.
When banking rules were changed around 1977, when the secondary market for mortgages was created, it was no longer necessary for banks to restrict lending to the most creditworthy borrowers in their operating regions. With the creation of the secondary market, it was possible for bank (and Savings & Loans) to originate mortgages over a wider geographic area without substantially increasing their portfolio risk.
Thus, redlining went away. As lending standards were reduced, starting with the Community Reinvestment Act that Jimmy Carter delivered in 1978, a new problem was let loose. Banking took another hit when Carter ended Regulation Q, which infected the Savings & Loan industry with enormous problems that led to its crash.
Finally, during the 1990s and early 2000s, credit standards were further loosened to the point that anyone, no matter how low their credit score, no matter how tenuous their job status, and no matter that the home-buyer had no money for a down-payment, could get a mortgage.
Disaster, not surprisingly, finally arrived. Yet, now, easy-to-get credit is called Predatory Lending.
What do people say when they claim they’re victims of Predatory Lending? They say they didn’t understand what they were signing when they signed their loan documents. Wow. How can that be?
There seems to be a naïve belief that Sub-Prime lending is something new. It also seems that blacks want to believe if they bought a piece of real estate with a sub-prime loan that somehow the loan itself limited or impaired the future value of the property. Obviously, a lot of people need a course in basic economics and some advice on how to manage money and assets.
So, for a long time blacks argued they were denied credit. Now it’s argued they received too much credit.
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Ally
Its non-empathic, none feeling and ignorant opinions like this which seem to allow the polarization around arguments for reparations to develop.
For example:
Its equivalent to scientific experiments conducted to determine whether animals feel pain or trauma when they are experimented on. And even if this was true. The assumption that this pain or experience could be transmitted across to future successive generations would also be just so absurd!
Such opinion shows total ignorance and non-understanding of the role and part, present day science will tell you, DNA plays in future generations of offspring.
Trauma has an inter-generational affect. Even the slave masters knew and understood this well as they used it to great affect to decrease the possibility slave rebellions and uprisings.
Anyone who argues against reparations simply on the basis of the fairness of “supposedly lottery” windfall payments to questionable identifiable persons of slave or non-slave origin. Really needs to study more closely the literature in this area. Because it shows they have clearly not understood it…!
But judging by the type of continuing discussion I suspect it may be more of the capacity for empathy rather intellectual comprehension.
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To Legion,
I care little what nonsensical comparisons you made. I also care little for what you or any others find wanting in what I say.
I still stand by what I said in the first place. To pay money to one of the richest groups of people in the world, even if many of them are poor in comparison to a large number of their lighter skinned countrymen, seems to have little moral justification, particularly when they have not personally suffered the injustices for which the reparations are being paid. I can think of much better uses for the money.
To Kwamla,
I will ignore your tiresome insults and concentrate on the meat of your argument.
Are you really suggesting that black people have the trauma of slavery in their DNA? It is hard to make sense of what you wrote so I want to be sure. If you really are arguing that you will find that every race has this ‘trauma DNA’ in their genetic make up as every race has been enslaved. However, this might not be what you are saying. Perhaps you can clarify the matter.
If you believe I have no empathy you are very far of the mark, I just have no taste for nonsense and ill considered political actions of the ‘grand gesture’ variety.
I am always open to reason. If you can show me a compelling argument for reparations I will listen to it. I haven’t heard one so far.
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Ally
“I care little what nonsensical comparisons you made. I also care little for what you or any others find wanting in what I say.”—If you did not care then why bring it up to begin with? For everything you claim to not care about and is not “bothering” you seem to jump on it in making it a point. Even in you claim legion is upset, it seems that you are more upset.
As for reparations I am most certain that it was discussed upthread by a ton of people that reparations should not and is not just money (could be just that for some though). When legion mentioned broken promises I can clearly think of the 40 acres and a mule. How many received this promise? Were white individuals also promised this? If so then ok let them get their promises as well, but if not then what poor whites should and should not get can be dropped.
If you promise a person something, especially something that can be passed down to a family member and be built upon, then it should be given to them. I bet if they had then their would be no discussion on reparations.
“I am always open to reason. If you can show me a compelling argument for reparations I will listen to it. I haven’t heard one so far.”—Is that how debates work? Convince you? I don’t think so. A person makes a claim, it gets debunked, and they move on. This appears to be opinion arguing to see who is more right or reasonable according to how you see reason. So people have to inevitable tailor their responses to appease you. Most people are not interested in arguing opinions (which is why many are not even bothering). I am one and will likely not respond past this.
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Sharina,
I am not upset, but I will correct inaccuracies or what I perceive to be nonsense. And if someone addresses me, politely or rudely, I will respond.
I really did care very little what nonsensical analogy Legion was making and possibly did misread what he/she said due to my careless lack of concern. His/her crude insults don’t worry me either. I always know when someone is losing an argument. They get emotional and start throwing insults. The more emotional and insulting the more they have lost.
However, to be fair to him/her I don’t believe he/she was all that upset at what I said, merely irritated I dared to say something so crassly insensitive and expressed their disapproval in a colloquial style. I could have called him/her an ‘ass/asshole’ myself had I wanted to, though as I am English ‘arse/arsehole’ would be the equivalent epithet. If I really wanted to insult him/her I would choose something rather more robust but I prefer to refrain from such language to spare the blushes of Mr Abagond who I understand is a very sensitive soul.
Actually the point behind a debate is to persuade your opponent, or those listening, that they should change their point of view or agree with yours if they are undecided. Otherwise it is merely mental masturbation. Too often on the comments here we have the loyal claque that marvels at everything Mr Abagond has to say, regardless of its merits, without testing anything he says to see if it will stand. I have been persuaded many times by eloquence and good reasoning and always welcome that.
If you believe I am so egocentric to imagine that this thread is simply there for me to instruct others or be instructed myself you have erred. However, the point I made was addressed to one particular person who challenged me on what I said, so I think I was entirely justified in what I said in response.
I genuinely do argue to understand the world and am always open to persuasion, regardless of how decided I may appear. I don’t believe it is anyone’s job to persuade me of anything but I do assume that if they engage me in a discussion it is with the obvious intention of telling me what they think and there is an implied understanding that if they do a good enough job I might change my mind. Even those that hurl abuse at me probably do so to tell me quite how horrible I am for thinking such horrible things and again, there is an implied hope that if I can be brought to realise this I will reform my disgusting, heretical ways and come round to the ‘right’ way of thinking.
I don’t know what ‘people have to inevitable tailor their responses to appease you’ means in English. Perhaps you might like to translate, or perhaps not as you are, in your own words, ‘unlikely to respond past this.’ It seems a pity to throw in the towel so early.
For the record, if there is enough land available then I am very happy for the US government to give every black or vaguely dusky American forty acres of American soil. As an Englishman it actually scarcely concerns me anyway, beyond what I see as the abstract rights and wrongs of the matter. As an animal rights advocate I would rather they held the mule.
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40 acres and a mule? Based on the land area in the US and the number of people living here, there’s 10 acres per person. Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam want that land for blacks. The NOI has its eye on land in the farm-belt.
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Ally
“I am not upset, but I will correct inaccuracies or what I perceive to be nonsense. And if someone addresses me, politely or rudely, I will respond.”—No one is saying not to respond but what sense does it make to make a whole post about insults? IT actually clouds your point.
“I really did care very little what nonsensical analogy Legion was making and possibly did misread what he/she said due to my careless lack of concern. “—If you don’t care why are you trying to sell your reasoning to me? And if they is your reason for misreading then you are thus making your opinion the focal point and ignoring anything else put forth.
“His/her crude insults don’t worry me either. I always know when someone is losing an argument. They get emotional and start throwing insults. The more emotional and insulting the more they have lost.”—Then you both are tied because his insults and then you followed with insults. This is bad logic.
“If I really wanted to insult him/her I would choose something rather more robust but I prefer to refrain from such language to spare the blushes of Mr Abagond who I understand is a very sensitive soul”—An insult is an insult. You did your share. According to who? You are likely to get ignored rather than any emotional response from abagond.
“Actually the point behind a debate is to persuade your opponent, or those listening, that they should change their point of view or agree with yours if they are undecided.”—According to who? The short form of a debate is to prove the other party wrong. Not to persuade them to agree with you. People can just as easily persuade with lies and still be wrong. I think it is a matter of you want people to change your mind and assume that constitutes a debate.
“Too often on the comments here we have the loyal claque that marvels at everything Mr Abagond has to say, regardless of its merits, without testing anything he says to see if it will stand.”—I personally prefer if you not make the basis of everything you say about abagond because when I do address people I don’t address them on behalf of abagond or what abagond does but based on the information in their comments and such. If you want to focus on abagond then please feel free to write a blog about him and then you can do that all day without boring me with the details.
“and there is an implied understanding that if they do a good enough job I might change my mind.”—Implied by who? From my stand point I simply engage to correct. Not interested in a mind changer. Perhaps your assumptions are the problem here?
“I don’t know what ‘people have to inevitable tailor their responses to appease you’ means in English. “—This basically means you are setting the rules and standards for what will suffice. So people in here have to meet the standard in order for you believe and be persuaded. Even if it does turn out to be legit information you can decided that it is not good enough based on what you want to believe.
“It seems a pity to throw in the towel so early.”—I won’t call it throwing in the towel so much as a waste of my time. I don’t feel the need to argue your opinion as much as you feel the need for people to prove it wrong. I come here for legitimate debates not for childish games. You are not presenting anything more than your opinion.
Any further questions or concerns?
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sb32199
Lay off the pipe dude.
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Sharina, if you check with the Nation of Islam and Louis Farrakhan, you might find you and the NOI share a lot of common ground on the issue of the compensation blacks expect from whites.
Perhaps you should read “Message to the Blackman” by Elijah Muhammad. He puts forth a lot of ideas on this topic.
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Ally, first , Jim Crow, white flight and realters and goevernment that created ghettos, segragation in sports, etc all that was not very long ago, in my lifetime, and those are legacies of slavery…white racism has dogged black Americans every step of the way, who are you trying to kid? No you are way off about that, and that is why reparations should be considered
Second, you dont know anything about South America…it wasnt the “people” in the south cone of South America, it was marxists trying to start one of those revolutions che gueverra talked about and they have admitted that , I have seen them doing it…they were a small minority of people
the majority of people didnt like the dictatorships, but they didnt want a marxist revolution, because they just didnt join in to support the revolution, they didnt want marxism and these people were counting on the people to join in
ive seen the compiled picture of most of the people who died in Brazil , under one thousand on the revolutionaries side and less than 700 from the military…in a country of more than half afro diasporic people in Brazil, there are very few black faces in that compilation…there are some but, very few, this is hardly a peoples war in Brazil…
3000 were killed in Chile, that is a lot, but nothing compared to what commuinist countries the revolutionaries were training at, the multi millions that were eliminated in the Soviet Union, China, CAmbodia, and the thousands in Cuba who eliminated as many as Brazil,Argentina, and Chili and Uruguai combined…Argentina was the most violent in South America, with 30 thousand eliminated…but what do you think these military dictatorships were fighting against? a marxist revolutionary take over…and guess what, operation Condor was among them and had nothing to do with the USA…yes, the USA was supporting these dictatorships and had cia down there , trained them in techniques of torture, nothing to be proud of, but, these dictatorships didnt need USA help at all to do what they did…
In every sence of the word, these marxist revolutionaries are as responsible for what happened in those South American countries as the USA and the dictatorships..and they werent the people…you need to do a little more research to find the truth , not the cliched bs
dont worry, I know the USA is dirty…just not as dirty as the Marxists…oh am i happy Brazil didnt have a succesful che revolution…its not like that marxist revolution crap really helps the people…it ends up eliminating multi millions often times…and the economies go belly up….is that helping the people?
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@Legion:
So what do you actually propose should be done? You mentioned about a world court. Would this be enough? You say the crimes are awesome in scope and scale. What exactly would be able to truly create genuine justice against this incredible magnitude of wrongdoing?
You mention about fundamental institutional change. How do you propose to go about doing that? Especially considering that racial conditioning is part and parcel of American culture: even if you were to magically “*poof*” make the institutions existing now disappear and then put in new ones, the people making them up are going to be drawn from that population, and as a result the corruption will just reappear in a new form. It’s like trying to make a yummy cake out of sludge. It doesn’t matter that you throw out the old sludge cake — if all you have is sludge to draw from, you’re only going to be able to make another gross sludge cake.
I suppose you could draw from those people who are actively anti-racist, but how do you know they’ll be replaced by more anti-racist people? How do you ensure it persists?
How do you kill the monster?
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@Ally:
I don’t get this: why must the absolute wealth be the criterion? Especially when as citizens of a country with much more, they should deserve the same standard as afforded to the majority, no?
An example illustrates the absurdity of this: Suppose there’s a country which is poor in absolute terms, and it has an even poorer subsegment and this subsegment is oppressed. According to your logic, they can be paid reparations. But it makes no sense that it can be done there yet not in the richer country, for reparations is based not on what they have but on what they could have had were the wrong not done and what was done, i.e. the wrong.
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I can see three possibilities that could work with the right organisation
1 legalize weed, Californis made 31 billion from weed sales , if it was nationaly legal , a small part of the tax money could go to a fund for reparations …lets face it , the 1937 Anslinger marijuana tax act made it ilegal and that was mostly to target black and brown people , out of racism , the Zoot Suit wars were all about that and tied in with a cultural racism and stigmatation…enormous numbers of black and brown people have been jailed for just harmless pot possecian , something history will look at mind boggling so , considering the actual real medicinal health benifits it has…the amount if people of color jailed from pot possecian is and was staggering , its only fitting it could come from that…its fresh money coming out of no ones pockets ….who would object
2 Have some qualified people draw up the demographic , and how it is to be paid out , and to who , and where it could actualy do the most help, and , make a program that would seek out private donations from the top corporations and the top one percent wealthy elite…if it was put together intelligently enough with the right wording , you might be surprised how much wealth might come on board…who really understand and want to contribute , and , it might jump start national,official action
3. This may be the most relevant of them all and one of the true sources for racism and slavery….its time to get donations from the Churches in the USA….its time for these tax free , government supported entities , to take responsibility for its blatent history in aiding a d abbetting white racism and slavery , and here is one of the more responsible origins
It would only take pennies off of the decimals donated by church goers , to build up a substancial fund that could be aplied to reparations funds
There are creative solutions , that wouldnt really hurt the working man and woman , at hand
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sb32199
“you might find you and the NOI share a lot of common ground on the issue of the compensation blacks expect from whites.”—Another response that requires you to lay off the pipe. I have made very little if no comments on what I expect from whites in regards to compensation, but because of your lack of ability to read and comprehend what you read then I am not even remotely surprised you imagined I said something I did not.
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“An example illustrates the absurdity of this: Suppose there’s a country which is poor in absolute terms, and it has an even poorer subsegment and this subsegment is oppressed. According to your logic, they can be paid reparations. But it makes no sense that it can be done there yet not in the richer country, for reparations is based not on what they have but on what they could have had were the wrong not done and what was done, i.e. the wrong.”
***********
Good grief! Another non-BLACK person chiming in – reason number 1,375,892 – on why reparations shouldn’t be paid to black people.
This is interesting, especially in light of how avid WHITE people are about bringing civil (restitution) suits, so called LEGAL remedies, against all manner of perceived wrongs – against themselves. They are by far the most suing happy people in the world. But when it comes to black people attempting to get some justice (monetary compensation) in their courts, it comes down to H3LL to the NAW – that ain’t happening!! All the warm fuzzies in here just makes me wanna holla in joy! lol
Nothing much has changed since the (supposedly) end of racism.
.. {{{serious eye roll}}}
Justice is still JUST-US… for them!.
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@ mike4ty4
So what do you actually propose should be done? [and the rest of the comment]
Well, I’m not an American, they will need to figure it out. But, maybe I can answer with a few things.
The picture you paint is an eternal Merry-go-round of never getting anywhere. I don’t think America has to be like that. I don’t think any of the Western democracies have to be like that. How to change? How to progress? The people who are out there making change say the same thing over and over: “pick an issue important in your community, one that you have personal motivation to commit to too. Organize with others, in your community, around that issue. Press politically for the changes you and your group want. You can’t get it done on your own. Rinse, wash, repeat.” A last thing that gets added to this recipe is that while working on the reforms make sure you’re big picture goal is a dismantling of this current system, to be replaced with something else.
The opportunity I see American blacks having with the Reparations issue is to give the American State a massive bloody nose before the whole world by having a significant demographic haul the US state to court, for the whole world to see.
——————-
Re: Getting Justice
You can’t always get justice. Maybe you never get justice. That’s why I mentioned “approximating justice”. The hangings at Nuremberg had to be done, but I don’t know that they were justice. There are limitations on how close we can get to some ideals.
————————————————–
You mention about fundamental institutional change. How do you propose to go about doing that?
Fair warning: I might rattle this off too quick since I’m bout ready shut down the internet. If I don’t explain it properly I hope Abagond or King pick up my slack, they both know about the following.
Okay, something concrete. A total moron of an economist did a study on medical grants received by med students for important studies they want to carry out. The economist found out (might have been by accident, I don’t recall) that senior doctors in charge of giving out grants were favoring whites for grants and overall withholding grants from black med students. Do you know what!? You could not apply for your grant anonymously and you also had to declare your alma mater or current school. Various cues would telegraph race, well probable race and that is how the grant approvers were able to practice their racial discrimination.
Some of these institutional changes are not always the complex things we imagine them to be. How about a number on the grant approval–just a number. Then these fine fellows with “black best friends” (as I’m sure they’d say in defense against accusations of racism) could just evaluate the grant application itself, instead of deciding “Tyrone” is getting a grant over someone’s dead body!
Oh, the economist was a moron because she was “shocked”, “shocked!” at discovering racism in the data. It was a huge embarrassment for many in the medical community in America. It’s always awkward when someone gets a glimpse of the skeletons one is concealing. We talked about it on a couple threads, don’t recall which ones. You can search it easily enough on the web. Look for a NYT article, it’ll come up.
You mention about fundamental institutional change. How do you propose to go about doing that?
One last answer with a concrete example.
On the Duluth thread, Abagond did a write up of a lynching for a rape by a black boy that the boy just could not have committed (read the post for paticulars). I suggested (comment has since been deleted though) that all unsolved lynchings should be reopened as Cold Cases and the murderers, be they dead or alive, be determined and outed for the lynchings they did. What the city administration of Duluth wanted to do was sell everyone on singing “we shall overcome” around some statues and shed some tears– for me, that’s not justice.
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@ mike4ty4
Can you see how treating old lynchings as murder cold cases and re-investigating them would assign new value to those stolen lives. It might change the culture of policing in a positive way too. And people whose honour is wrongfully intact would be taken down to the level they deserve.
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*honor
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@ Sharina
Then you both are tied because his insults and then you followed with insults.
Aw! Don’t I get to be a little bit ahead Sharina? I did mix satire in with the insult. 🙂
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@ mike4ty4
You mention about fundamental institutional change. How do you propose to go about doing that?
Oh, here’s one more (must have stoked the fire):
No more goddamn Grand Juries for trigger happy cops who break down the door of and the shoot and kill harmless, unarmed black people who are guilty of their medic alert necklace going off.
Grand Juries are a technique of getting the State or it’s agents acquitted of any wrongdoing, especially when it’s clear they have engaged in wrongdoing. That would be another institutional change that could be made. It would pay a lot better than a reparations pay check.
The case I’m speaking about is: Kenneth Chamberlin Sr.
The way the cops killed him was actually an execution.
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I said: The “slavery is affecting me right now” meaning (the woman in Kwamla’s video was giving a version of that), would have really terrible fall out for blacks.
Abagond can you put a comma between “)” and “would” in my original comment. And then delete this one. TIA.
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@Legion: Thanks for the large amount of comprehensive input. However, what about the question about how much change is possible when people have racial conditioning? What can be done to help keep that from being a problem?
Also, if “actual justice” is impossible but only an approximation, then I guess what I would have been asking about would’ve been a “much better” approximation of justice. But I see you’ve already provided some answers toward that end.
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Sharina,
So you came back for more after all. I will respond to your points one at a time.
I will post whatever I want. If someone insults me I will probably write about it. If I am called ignorant, unfeeling, stupid and an ass for my views I am generally not going to meekly take it and nod my head, even if you want me to. Nothing I said has clouded anything else I have said.
I’m not selling anything to you, or rather I’m not doing so any more than you are. Your attitude seems strange and you don’t really seem to have a cogent argument. I am telling anyone who cares to read what I write or who directly addresses me what I think and why. You are going the same. Anyone is free to agree with me or not.
“And if they is your reason for misreading then you are thus making your opinion the focal point and ignoring anything else put forth.” Is English your first language?
What insults did I make? I don’t remember any. My comment about Mr Abagond’s sensitivity was not intended to be taken very seriously.
To prove something absolutely is very hard. History, for instance, does not operate as a court of law which can decide the ‘truth.’ It is a debate in which various historians make a case for the accuracy of their interpretation of events. It makes no difference how long or short a debate is, they all work in the same way.
‘Lies’ is a relative term. I would say some people, such as radical feminists, tend to use statistics in a highly selective and misleading way which gets close to deliberate lying. How conscious and calculated that is is another question. In politics self conscious lying is often called ‘spin’. In your terms I would say that many advocates for reparations are using ‘lies’ but I would not call them such and would certainly not be so rude to suggest those arguing against me are liars. I generally hold the view that very few people or ‘isms’ have a monopoly on the truth which tends to be more complex than most can cope with.
I don’t want anyone to change my mind, but if they can I will graciously accept that. I very much doubt anyone can on this issue but I am very open for the attempt. If that is more effort than you can be bothered to make I won’t lose any sleep over it.
I don’t think anything I wrote is likely to upset Mr Abagond all that much. He must be very well aware that he has a band of loyal followers who immediately approve of anything he writes. I doubt he calls them his claque though. I don’t think my mentioning him a couple of times means that the basis of everything I say is about him. That is rather exaggerating the case. If you are so bored by what I say you can always ignore me. I will not pursue the matter with any vigour I assure you. You do not interest me much more than I interest you.
If you are trying to correct someone you are trying to change their mind, otherwise you would not address them directly, you would just ignore them because you don’t care what they say or think. You protest too much.
If someone wants to change how I think then they will need to do something to persuade me. If they don’t want to change my mind then there is little point engaging me in conversation, unless it is to discuss the weather.
The ‘rules and standards’ I have ‘set’ are fairly universal and understood by most people, if not by you. You appear to be under the impression that you can talk down to people like a school mistress, tell the tiresome children they are wrong and what to think instead but, unlike a good teacher, make no effort to explain why, because doing so is so boring. ‘Legit information’ is a very vague term. One man’s legitimate can be another’s illegitimate.
If you don’t want to waste your precious time why did you respond at all, either the first time or the second? I don’t think I am playing childish games. I think it is rather you who is being childish and petulant. I am certainly not presenting anything more than my opinion, but then neither is anyone else here. No-one to my knowledge has done any fresh research to shed new light on the matter.
I don’t believe you actually want to ‘debate’ anything. I think you want to silence the opposition by ‘winning’ and showing them the ‘truth’ or exposing their ‘lies’.
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@ mike4ty4
However, what about the question about how much change is possible when people have racial conditioning? What can be done to help keep that from being a problem?
Right, I didn’t address that directly but I did think that some basic solutions addressing that problem could be inferred from what I did say.
First, I should say, I’m a terrible choice to talk to about “racial conditioning” in the US, for two reasons: I’m not from there and I have not spent enough time there to see, and feel this as an active phenomena. I have had one very difficult experience with racism in the US on a prior visit but such things can’t fully inform in the way that living there would. However, given the things that I do know (personal experience, stuff in the news, the well known(?) negative labour market conditions for qualified blacks, difficulties like that research grant issue mentioned above, etc.) there would seem to definitely be such a thing as “racial conditioning” taking place.
Well, this one has some quick and fast solutions too.
Consider:
• “Students with lower test scores receive worse punishments for rule-breaking than their counterparts at others schools.[5] This trend parallels and includes sentencing disparities in the “War On Drugs.””
That quote is from the wiki article on the School-to-prison pipeline. Well, the morphing of schools into an abuse center for inflicting damage on at risk kids and valuing some kids while devaluing other kids and priming them to become fodder for the criminal justice system is a sick, sick phenomena; the public should be forcing a reversal of this.
• Stop and frisk. Big problem, quite racist and not even successful at finding violent criminals, from what I understand.
Again, the ‘monster’ as you called it is not unstoppable. A lot of stupid, racist and immoral practices could just be stopped. You know, no fancy left wing theories there, just stop engaging in a lot of disgusting practices. That would take quite a bit of momentum out of the ‘monster’.
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Legion
lol. I actually was a bit surprised you did. You usually are very reserved with your responses.
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Ally
“I will post whatever I want.”—I am not sure what part of my post said you could not post whatever you want. Do you mind quoting it?
“I’m not selling anything to you, or rather I’m not doing so any more than you are.”—I am not sure what you consider selling on my part. I am not the one explaining why I was rude to Legion. You spent quite a few paragraphs explaining selling your reasoning.
“Your attitude seems strange and you don’t really seem to have a cogent argument.”—I don’t think I was making an argument. Asking a slue of questions is not equal to an argument. Like I said before. I don’t care to or want to convince you of anything.
“I am telling anyone who cares to read what I write or who directly addresses me what I think and why.”—Um its called an opinion. If you have not noticed I and others are actually doing the same thing.
“Is English your first language?”—Awww how sad when you have to go to typos and mistakes as an insult. You know they say when this is all you have you have also lost your argument or point as well?
“What insults did I make? I don’t remember any. Etc…” —-I will have to do a seperate list for these but just as a testers “Is English your first language?” AS to abagond’s sensitivity, I will no long address any obsessive abagond comments. Though I will say insults are often taken as a joke by individuals. Or better yet I will just provide the definition http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insult
“It makes no difference how long or short a debate is, they all work in the same way.”—I didn’t say it made a difference, but trying to persuade a person to a side is not debating. If a person does agree with your side is then it happens but it does not consitute a debate.
“If that is more effort than you can be bothered to make I won’t lose any sleep over it.”—That makes both of us because I slept like a baby. I already told you my stance once. You trying to goad me into doing so will not work, so you can kindly stop bringing it up. Not interested in mind changing.
“If you are trying to correct someone you are trying to change their mind, otherwise you would not address them directly, you would just ignore them because you don’t care what they say or think”—No (nice try on the the switch up though). It is as simple as someone quoting incorrect quotes or saying incorrect stats. For example If a person said america is 50% gay and I provide the correct stats (with sources) then I am simply correcting them not changing there minds. They can choose not to believe those stats I provided but I did my part so I would be done.
My means for engaging you will be revealed soon so no need to go on and on to try to figure it out.
“The ‘rules and standards’ I have ‘set’ are fairly universal and understood by most people, if not by you.”—Not really because most people know the difference between a debate and a person wanting to be persuaded. Perhaps you may consider researching the two.
“You appear to be under the impression that you can talk down to people like a school mistress, tell the tiresome children they are wrong and what to think instead but, unlike a good teacher, make no effort to explain why, because doing so is so boring. “—Funny. Not to long ago you seemed to be under that impression, so perhaps this projection you are displaying at the moment is just that. As to you mistakes I actually have told you and detailed as such, but if you need further detail then this is where you do your own research. I am not a babysitter or a holder of hands. You want to know something then get to it and do it.
“‘Legit information’ is a very vague term. One man’s legitimate can be another’s illegitimate.”—Don’t disagree there.
“I don’t believe you actually want to ‘debate’ anything. I think you want to silence the opposition by ‘winning’ and showing them the ‘truth’ or exposing their ‘lies’.”—So what part of my comment above did you miss when I said I don’t debate opinions? When you can present a solid stance to argue then I might consider debating. Until then it is your opinion vs mine or whoever else cares to comment.
Does this conclude your questions and concerns?
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“What insults did I make? I don’t remember any.” –Short term memory must be nice. The list so you will have no means of believing I was bluffing or just making up the insult thing. Though I am sure your argument will be that you don’t see them as an insult.
1. You think my point stupid, I would return the compliment.
2. You do seem to get all hot and bothered and very indignant for little reason. Perhaps you can take a moment to become somewhat calmer before you respond to this. I’m sure getting so hysterically angry is not good for you.
3. You simply don’t have it in you and I am never silenced by insults. I totally fail to see the analogy between the case for and against reparations and concentration camps. No doubt it made sense to you but then so much does.
4. If you yourself are a black American there is an obvious explanation but I will not be so rude to mention it. If you are white I cannot account for it at all.
5. Your attitude seems strange and you don’t really seem to have a cogent argument.
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Sharina,
Yes, you are perfectly right. My argument is that I don’t see them as an insult.
You really need to understand the vital difference between an insult and a criticism. If someone calls me a dickhead it is an insult. If someone says what I am saying is rubbish and says why they believe that is so they are criticising what I have written. The two are not the same. Obviously there can be a grey area in the middle, but for the most part there is a clear difference and sensitive souls often feel insulted when they have not been.
1. He did think my point was stupid. That was not an insult and neither was mine.
2. He did lose his cool and I pointed that out. That is not an insult, it is critical of his behaviour. If I tell someone they are getting emotional, shouting, ranting etc. I am not insulting them if they are indeed over emotional, shouting and ranting. Once again I am criticising their behaviour and not insulting them.
3. He didn’t have it in him to silence me and I merely stated a fact. His bizarre views make sense to him and not to me. Again that is not an insult, it is pointing out how ridiculous I think his argument. It is a criticism. He is free to say the same about what I write and unless he directly insults me I am fine with that. Even if he does insult me I will merely point that out, or ignore it, and address his points.
4. I was pointing out what I perceived to be the inconsistency of his views and exploring his possible motivations. He has swallowed the standard American Imperial vision and propaganda about the Cold War. I found that ironic given he professes to support reparations at home. Once again it is a criticism, in fact more of an implied criticism and you will notice that I didn’t actually accuse him directly of anything, although I left the connection clear enough to be drawn. He has subsequently defended his views (to his satisfaction at least) and did not shrink from my ‘insults’. He is not so weak or irrational.
5. You don’t have a cogent argument. You didn’t before and you don’t now. All you have is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way people debate, and more specifically some vague dissatisfaction about the way I have conducted myself on this forum. Once again I am criticising you and if you find that insulting I am sorry but that was not really my intention. I will not stop, however, just because you don’t like it and find it insulting. If at any time I call you heartless, ignorant, stupid, irrational and an asshole, or say that I think you are totally incapable of forming a cogent argument, consider yourself deliberately insulted.
(Apologies to anyone if I have confused their sex).
Perhaps some of this is cultural, assuming you are American. As a rule English people don’t sugar coat their words when they are debating with other people. Americans, on the other hand, seem to feel the need to tiptoe around people and be careful to be ‘nice’ and not offend them, unless they lose their cool and start flinging out insults as many of the less reasonable do here of all races and nationalities.
There does, however, seem to be a fundamental flaw in your understanding of how debating works and if you are so easily insulted when all someone is doing is criticising you perhaps you should not engage people in debate, criticise them yourself or post anything lest someone criticises what you wrote. In some cases they might actually insult you as some people really have insulted me. I think you are just too delicate for a rough and tumble forum such as this.
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Legion:
• Stop and frisk. Big problem, quite racist and not even successful at finding violent criminals, from what I understand.
Stop & Frisk was largely curtailed in NY City, and — surprise, surprise — the number of shootings has already increased.
Stop & Frisk DETERS people from carrying their guns as often as they would like. When there’s a cutback in the use of S&F tactic, the guns seem to be carried around and fired more often.
Fortunately, the murder total is not climbing. However, that says only the current shooters are not skillful shooters. Bad aim.
“Students with lower test scores receive worse punishments for rule-breaking than their counterparts at others schools.[5] This trend parallels and includes sentencing disparities in the “War On Drugs.””
Correlation is not causation. Meanwhile, we are on the cusp of decriminalizing the use of many drugs, and, of course, pot is now legal in two states. Do you believe the changes will lead to less drug use? Or will drug cartels increase their sales and expand operations in every possible way?
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“Correlation is not causation.”
That’s exactly what I said to myself when I read your smarmy:
Stop & Frisk was largely curtailed in NY City, and — surprise, surprise — the number of shootings has already increased
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^ Great retort 😛
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I will ignore your tiresome insults and concentrate on the meat of your argument.
Forsooth I detest tiresome arguments that go on and on and on! Sir, can you not give more concise arguments that do not cause one to see cross eyed after the second paragraph? As for insults? They are quite enjoyable when done cunningly!
I am always open to reason. If you can show me a compelling argument for reparations I will listen to it. I haven’t heard one so far.
We haven’t heard one from you either in regards to why reparations of some sort should not be meted out.
Anyone is free to agree with me or not.
I’ll agree with you for a couple of hundred bucks!
As an Englishman it actually scarcely concerns me anyway, beyond what I see as the abstract rights and wrongs of the matter. As an animal rights advocate I would rather they held the mule.
That figures, an englishman! That explains your anal-retentiveness and your interest in bestiality. Being an englishman it is none of your business as to what criteria, the amount of money or any other compensation North American blacks get as reparations. You should worry about the West Indians taking queen and country to court for their reparations. Oh, I hope the West Indians get theirs. You are a typical white racist englishman couching your views in a leftist pseudo babble. You were right when you said you were posting in the abstract. I suppose such ‘cold’ and reserved views allowed your ancestors to colonize all these ‘lesser’ peoples over the years, something which you and yours have benefited from ever since. Why, it has allowed you to ‘converse’ with a bunch of ni88ers and their ‘coloured’ friends. You can trump these folks with your superior intellect!
Stop & Frisk was largely curtailed in NY City, and — surprise, surprise — the number of shootings has already increased.
Maybe you should have stayed home instead of taking advantage of this.
@Sharina:
Ally may not be praetoriaz, maybe his english cousin. People like these two buffoons abound, in the real world, believe me. They have managed to derail the post with tales of stop and frisk and animal husbandry. They are simply not interested in reparations, but in showing how much more ‘smarter’ then you blacks they are whatever their political compass. Sb(conservative, Ally( left). I’m going to finish my steak dinner!
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@ Ally
Comment deleted for moderated language.
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Herneith calls me a white racist, insults my country using ugly stereotypes and you delete my comments and not his?
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As my reply was censored I will simply ask Herneith to explain exactly how I am racist.
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@ Ally
1. She called you a white racist because you sound just like one.
2. Your comment was not “censored”. It was deleted because you used moderated language. Also, you wished for her death.
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Ally
Once again the problem with your whole point is it is based on what YOU believe and is not bound in any fact of the matter. An insult and criticism are not the same, but the difference is very small and nothing you said applies. So perhaps it is you that does not know the vital difference between the two in which I have no problem correcting.
“ An insult is an expression, statement (or sometimes behavior) which is considered degrading, offensive and impolite. Insults (sometimes called “cracks” “remarks” or one-liners)[1] may be intentional or accidental.” The link I provided also gives examples to clear further confusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult
criticism has different meaning depending on the situation but for the sake of my time I will just use this one “is the practice of judging the merits and faults of something or someone in an intelligible (or articulate) way.” My personal definition includes with the intent of helping improve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism
“If someone calls me a dickhead it is an insult. If someone says what I am saying is rubbish and says why they believe that is so they are criticizing what I have written. “—I can count about that are direct insults to him and not his post if you really want to argue that, but I would hope you could find a better excuse.
Now that that has been explain then I will go down your list of insults.
1. He did call you stupid, but the line “ I would return the compliment. “ was as sly way of calling his point stupid. It was meant to be an insult to him as he insulted you.
2. You assumed he lost his cool. Perhaps you can ask him, but in the meantime it was an insult simply because you were using it to poke fun at him “loosing his cool” as you saw it. This is an insult to him as an individual.
3. The whole “you simply don’t have it in you” can be seen as an insult to his manhood or pointing him out as weak. That is an insult to him as an individual. This line “No doubt it made sense to you but then so much does” was as direct of an insult as one can get.
4. This is an another attack on him though and based on your above logic it becomes an insult right? You are basically saying that depending on his skin color depends on how much you understand what he is saying.
5. I never presented an argument to have one, so you saying this was nothing more than a personal insult to me. If I have presented some type of argument then you may have gotten by with calling this criticism.
“All you have is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way people debate, and more specifically some vague dissatisfaction about the way I have conducted myself on this forum”—Actually I have better. A source. So far you have not provided any source or proof that shows me that my understanding of a debate is wrong.
“Once again I am criticising you and if you find that insulting I am sorry but that was not really my intention. “—I don’t mind criticism if a person can distinct the difference between that and an insult.
“If you are so easily insulted when all someone is doing is criticising you perhaps you should not engage people in debate, criticise them yourself or post anything lest someone criticises what you wrote. “—Just because I clearly pointed out your insult does not give you the means to assume I am personally insulted. The way I see it is if you had to stoop that low then it must be the only card you have to play.
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Mr Abagond,
“@ Ally
1. She called you a white racist because you sound just like one.
2. Your comment was not “censored”. It was deleted because you used moderated language. Also, you wished for her death.”
For some reason your comment is not coming through so I have pasted it myself, even though it makes it look like I am talking to myself.
Exactly how do I sound like a white racist? I am putting across a view shared by many, including many black people, the ones you call ‘rented’. I had thought rather better of you. that you actually could entertain the idea that someone disagrees with you without being as prejudiced as you obviously are yourself.
I am afraid some whites say that blacks play the ‘race card’ because it has a strong element of truth about it. Any disagreement with those wallowing in their victimhood and playing the race game is because that person is racist or has ‘internalised racism’. Rather than deal with the arguments you and your loyal followers say that any opposition is due to your opponent either being a white racist, ‘sounding’ like a white racist or being an Uncle Tom/’rented black’, someone like Sowell, McWhorter or Shelby.
It is pathetic.
If I sound like a white racist you sound like someone who cannot deal with any form of disagreement without demonising those that disagree with you. You seem to struggle with all forms of dissent.
If you moderate for me making a not very serious remark about her choking on her lump of dead cow and allow her insinuate that I practice bestiality you seem to have some odd notions about what to moderate and what not.
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legion:
“Correlation is not causation.”
That’s exactly what I said to myself when I read your smarmy:
In other words, in your view the surge of violence in Iraq has no connection to the withdrawal of US troops from the country? Right?
Are there causes? Are there effects tied to causes?
Do most people, even criminals, respond in a rational, pre-emptive way to the possibility they may find themselves the object of law enforcement? In other words, do they take steps to minimize their risk of facing serious consequences due to an unexpected police encounter?
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Ally,
You’re dealing with people who have remarkably thin skins. Sharina and some others can’t get past their need for taking the ad hominem route the instant their sensibilities are aroused.
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sb32199
You would be wrong yet again. I have not used an ad hominem attack on ally not once. You on the other hand have seen your fair share based solely on the fact that taking you seriously would be a complete insult.
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“Rather than deal with the arguments you and your loyal followers say that any opposition is due to your opponent either being a white Rather than deal with the arguments you and your loyal followers say that any opposition is due to your opponent either being a etc….” The problem with this statement is you have yet to present an argument to be challenged, disputed, or whatever. People confuse their opinion with an argument and thus feel as if they are legitimately challenging someone when they are not. The link below is one of wiki answers but I thought the guy was thorough in his response. This is precisely why I feel debating opinions are pointless.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_an_opinion_and_an_argument
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Ally,
Exactly how do I sound like a white racist? I am putting across a view shared by many, including many black people, the ones you call ‘rented’. I had thought rather better of you. that you actually could entertain the idea that someone disagrees with you without being as prejudiced as you obviously are yourself.
I have a feeling that even though someone will go out of his or her way to show you how, you will not accept it. I’ve seen this done before. It’s just another mode of derailing and crying for attention away from the topic.
I am afraid some whites say that blacks play the ‘race card’ because it has a strong element of truth about it. Any disagreement with those wallowing in their victimhood and playing the race game is because that person is racist or has ‘internalised racism’. Rather than deal with the arguments you and your loyal followers say that any opposition is due to your opponent either being a white racist, ‘sounding’ like a white racist or being an Uncle Tom/’rented black’, someone like Sowell, McWhorter or Shelby.
And when white people cry and portray themselves as victims of their own exaggerated and imagined fears, it’s perfectly okay? In other words, for example, a white woman crying because she is called a racist is more worthy of concern than a black woman getting harassed by police because she “looked” suspicious.
It is pathetic.
If I sound like a white racist you sound like someone who cannot deal with any form of disagreement without demonising those that disagree with you. You seem to struggle with all forms of dissent.
In the meantime you struggle not focusing on the topic and making this all about you and condemning us for not putting up with your trolling.
If you moderate for me making a not very serious remark about her choking on her lump of dead cow and allow her insinuate that I practice bestiality you seem to have some odd notions about what to moderate and what not.
Cry me a river.
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@ Ally
Oh please. If it were that simple the comment threads would not run on for hundreds of comments. Racists and their arguments are answered patiently and in detail on this blog. Over and over and over again. So much so that I have written posts about their standard arguments and devoted whole threads to them:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/broken-record-dept/
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@ Ally
I am not going to dissect your comments to point why you sound racist. That would be off topic anyway. If you want me to do a post on it I will. Suffice it to say that your Anything But Racism argument and your Bogus White Objectivity is common among white racists who come here, so it makes you SOUND like a white racist.
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Hilarious. The thread is now an ad hominem effort aimed at Ally. As if the Ally critics aren’t the chief reason a discussion veers off into pointlessness.
To borrow from Alice in Wonderland — “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
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Sb32199
Can you define ad hominem for the room please? With an example? Because so far you are making a big hoopla over something that is not even happening. Then again you are good at lying and making things up so no real surprise.
Perhaps I will start making up stuff you said to see if it becomes equally as hilarious.
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I had wished not to reveal my race on here and instead to have my arguments judged independently. However, due to the bigoted behaviour of a number of other posters I find this position untenable.
To all those that accuse me of being a white racist you have made a very stupid and ill informed assumption. I am in fact black and moreover I am black with dark skin. I self identify as black, not mixed race, although one of my grandparents was white but I have no problem if someone wishes to call me mixed. I was educated at an English public school (which are the ‘posh’ schools in Britain) so I have what would be generally considered an upper middle class ‘white’ voice, which in reality is not actually defined by race but by class.
On other sites I am used to being called an Uncle Tom, Sambo, ‘white identified’, ‘acting white’, a ‘sell out’ etc. by other black people for my unfashionable views and wanted a break from that. Unfortunately I have just replaced one form of insult with another. The bigotry remains.
I do not subscribe to the black victim philosophy so generally espoused on here. I do not view myself as blighted by racism and facing insurmountable odds against a worldwide system of racism/white supremacy. I despise ‘professional blacks’ and those that seek to excuse their own failure by blaming white people all the time.
Since I have been on here I have been called a white racist, stupid, ignorant, unfeeling, a buffoon, a troll, an anally repressed Englishman, someone with no empathy and someone who engages in bestiality. Those are just the highlights among a selection of other insults. This is all because I think reparations a poor idea. I had not expected such prejudice and xenophobia on a blog which is supposed to be about fighting racism and prejudice. I am derailing nothing by attempting to defend myself against such self righteous and intolerant bigots.
I believe the people who fling out accusations of racism like they were confetti are simply doing so to silence opposition and I see little of the patient explanations claimed by Abagond. I have certainly experienced none of it. I can sympathise with white American people who believe that some American blacks have a huge chip on their shoulder and that everything a white American does or says will be interpreted by them as racist. I have just had a taste of it myself.
A racist is someone who believes that another race is inferior, intellectually, morally and spiritually and cannot and should not be treated equally as other more ‘advanced’ races. Can anyone show me exactly where I have suggested or implied any such belief?
I would really like to know what is so racist about my views on reparations. In the US everyone who suffered slavery is dead and everyone who enslaved other people is also dead. For me it is therefore a dead issue. I don’t accept that the failure of lower class blacks, very similar to the failure of lower class whites in Britain, has much to do with racism, overt or covert. I think it has to do with the adoption of a poor culture and poor life choices.
Even if I actually was a white racist it doesn’t make my arguments any less valid simply by defining them as racist. To prove a racist is wrong you still need to show evidence of why they are wrong. You cannot win an argument simply by calling someone something they might well choose to identify with, or do so under a different terminology, such as the way Abagond excuses his homophobia by justifying it with Catholic dogma. If I wanted to criticise his views simply calling him a homophobe is not very likely to do much other than alienate him. The only way to debate is to engage with someone on the core of their beliefs, not to throw out insults.
I have to agree with sb32199. Many people here are very thin skinned and very unwilling to debate and instead prefer to silence and harangue.
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There is an article at Slate by Jamelle Boule about how reparations should be used. He basically agrees with everything Coates said and he breaks down what should be done:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/reparations_should_be_paid_to_black_americans_here_is_how_america_should.html
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OFF TOPIC: Ally.
He wants to make this thread about himself and his victimhood on this thread – not happening. Take that stuff to the Open Thread. You can, however, discuss his VIEWS on reparations, even whether or not they are racist.
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I’m trying to post an article from Slate, but it doesn’t want to come through for some reason.
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@ Brothwolf
It was stuck in the spam filter. I got it out. Thanks for the heads-up.
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@ Ally
Comment deleted for being off topic.
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Abagond.
Okay. Thanks. 🙂
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Now if you two want to hold hands and stroke each others ego please do so in open thread.
@ Brothawolf.
I will take a look at the article you presented and get back to you.
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I pulled a few questions from the article that I think are a key concern for me as well as perhaps most people.
should it go to the descendants of slaves, who share a unique disadvantage? I personally feel it should go to the descendants of slaves. Because it would be the unpaid income of these individuals that particularly freed up funds to build wealth. The problem with this is a proper way in determining who came from slaves and who did not. Especially with the changing of many black names to meet white standards.
how much should individuals receive? —I think they should receive the fair income based on todays standards that they would have not received in that job category.
A uniform sum or an amount based on your heritage, i.e., the more enslaved ancestors you have, the bigger your payment?—The more enslaved ancestors the more you get.
Personally I am more for programs that would improve the situation of black Americans rather than simply giving out money, but I believe both can be accomplished with time and effort.
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Deleted comments by Ally, Sharina and sb32199.
Once again, thus thread is NOT about Ally!!!
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@ Ally
Deleted yet another comment by you that was off topic.
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^ I’m cool with that.
@brothawolf
The thing about reparations is it is not only about the injustices of slavery but also about injustices that continue afterwards. The reparations for slavery is a simply one to mem but it is the injustices following slavery that becomes tough because if we are talking money then how do you calculate that? If we are talking improvements in government regulations etc. then how do we go about putting that together? This statement for the article sums it up “Between our racialized disdain for the “undeserving” and general distaste for intrusive government, nothing on this scale could get off the ground. Even if it could, there’s an excellent chance the courts would kill it.”
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Reparations should not only go to those whose ancestors were slaves. Restitution should also go to the progeny of black people who were routinely mistreated by the white-privileged/racist system that continued long after slavery officially ended.
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Matari
“Restitution should also go to the progeny of black people who were routinely mistreated by the white-privileged/racist system that continued long after slavery officially ended.”—I agree, but that is where it tends to get a bit more complicated in terms of people who want detailed information on why, how, and whatever roadblocks of excuses.
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Here is one comment you might not actually censor, though I think it unlikely.
Can anyone explain to me why my views on reparations are racist or sound like those of a white racist?
If you make such claims for the love of God have the decency and balls to follow through with a reason for the attack and without referring to ready made slogans, generic posts or other people’s articles.
There were a number of you that did it, so perhaps at least one of you can explain why. This is not to do with me personally. It is an exploration of why some views here are held to be intrinsically racist when I think the majority of people would be hard pressed to find the prejudice you brave race warriors can so quickly and easily detect.
On this site it appears that anyone who questions the legitimacy of reparations is either a white racist or sounds like one. How is that so?
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Ally
I’m sorry but that is a question for open thread because you are trying to make it about you and not about reparations. Ask the person that called you racist and stop asking everyone.
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And if you need to delete that comment I am ok with that abagond
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@ Sharina
Talking about Ally’s views on reparations is on topic. You can even talk about such views are or not racist. Talking about him personally is OFF TOPIC.
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@ Ally
Deleted yet another comment of yours. Stew in your victimhood on the Open Thread, not here. If you are unwilling to follow instructions I will ban you. This is a warning. I am not going to repeat myself.
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“….it tends to get a bit more complicated in terms of people who want detailed information on why, how, and whatever …”
********
Just point them to the historical record regarding more than 400 years of Affirmative Action – FOR WHITES only at the expense of blacks in the USA.That should help un-complicate matters of who, how, why, what, where, etc.
This is why everyone should come to the table to look at this more closely – and why whites as a group are ardently resisting.
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“Can anyone explain to me why my views on reparations are racist or sound like those of a white racist?”—Actually no one said your views on reparations were racist, but that you sounded like a white racist and that was only like two people. You barely discussed reparations for anyone to get a good idea on what exactly your view is.
From what little I can gather:
You don’t believe black Americans should get reparations because none of them today was affected by it. You base this on a opinion you have that you believe people in here should prove you wrong about. Though you fail to realize this is your claim in which you should be able to back up just as those that challenge you should be able to support why blacks should get it.
You believe reparations equal money. When in reality it is not just money. It is broken promises and righting wrongs.
Linda’s post was very detailed and addressed many of your claims. That is why I don’t see the point in repeating simply because you don’t want to read it.
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@ Legion
Deleted comment for bring off topic.
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Okay Abagond, at least you’re actually moderating this time around.
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George Ryder
If I murdered, enslaved, and wronged your family would reparations cleanse me?
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^ Thanks Sharina. I typed in a version of that and then deleted it. By the way I made a comment to you in the “In My Dreams” thread.
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If Africans living in America ever get reparation, they should not ask for money, but something that’ll benefit them in the long run, such as free college education for all eternity, control of a certain amount of land & corporations for all eternity. Something like that. Blacks need something which will generate wealth for generations, something that prevents their money from going back into the hands of whites.
Oh, and anyone resisting any sort of reparations are just showing their blatant disregard for the century-long wronging of fellow human beings. It’s really that simple.
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“Blacks need something which will generate wealth for generations, something that prevents their money from going back into the hands of whites.”—I agree
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http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20140617-dallas-county-commissioners-unwittingly-back-slavery-reparations.ece
“The issue arose in a resolution written by John Wiley Price, the county’s only black commissioner. Described only as a “Juneteenth Resolution,” it was approved unanimously.
Other commissioners admitted after their meeting Tuesday that they hadn’t read the document before voting for it.”
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@v8driver: Thanx for that link, this is my city and the comment section is crazy regarding this subject. Check it out. I am just SMH.
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Hail, John Wiley Price! 😉
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Kiwi,
Just curious.
Do you feel that people are affected by things that they are not directly descendant of? Or do people need to identify with the historical legacy in order to be affected by it today.
For example, what claim should post-1965 West Indian or African immigrants should have re: America’s slavery legacy?
Or alternatively, do you perceive such action as the Chinese Exclusion Act, the pre-1965 bar on immigrants from Asia from entering or naturalization, the “Driving out” ethnic cleansing 1880 – 1910, or the Alien Land laws affecting those of Asian descent have any impact on what you might experience? You told me before that you have trouble relating to the anti-racist frame that prior generations may have had to face. Are you affected more, by, say, the occupation of Taiwan by Japan or the fleeing of the KMT supporters from the mainland, post-1949 martial law, or by, say, how jim crow laws might have affected Asian-Americans or how the Exclusion Act split up families or how some families had ancestors that were lynched. Technically, both occurred before you were born, but you might be experiencing some effect from them today (Whether you are aware of it or not).
Again, alternatively, many white Americans have slave ancestors on one or both sides of their parents’ ancestral lines. There are more white descendants of slaves living than black. No doubt, some of their recent ancestors were adversely affected by slavery or Jim Crow and left some of that legacy to their children, but their recent ancestors decided to “pass” into white (presumably, at least in part, to tap into white privilege). What is their inherited legacy from slavery?
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Just watched “Stubborn as a Mule” where African-American scholars debate the idea of reparations in respect of the slavery legacy. In general, they think something should be put out on the table.
(http://youtu.be/4PDt0E7tsBk)
They said that one thing that spurred this idea was the reparations for the Japanese-American internees during 1988-1992. Congress and the President thus do have a precedent of paying reparations to affected persons. $20,000 paid to each surviving detainee (which, 45 years after the fact, meant that less than 1/2 received anything).
I remember when I was in university before it occurred. It was one of the main themes of the Asian-American activist era from 1960s-1980s.
$20,000 is not really that much. For people who lost all their property and their means of livelihood, that is not much compensation 45 years after the fact.
I think that the US govt should have made reparations to slaves, but sometime soon after the Civil war while they were still alive, ie, maybe sometime between 1865 -1910. OK, maybe the govt was broke right after the war, but it should have gone directly to the people affected. Nearly all the grandchildren of slaves are already dead.
The US govt used Census data to identify who would go into the Internment camps, but they did not use Census data to determine who was eligible for reparations. It was given only to detainees still alive.
How much money would be appropriate? To pay out, say, $30,000 to each person would amount to some 1.2 trillion dollars. Would it really do anything if the govt just paid it out? How many would it help to increase their wealth, when the real culprit is the institutionalized racism that will return everything back to the status quo in no time?
How about something more like this (to confirmed slave descendant and identified as black) —
– PAID college tuition to anyone that is born already and completes and graduates with a 4 yr degree. All accredited universities, including Harvard and Princeton, must accept students and make sure that they graduate. The govt will foot the tuition, but the universities will lose their tax status if they do not accept the students and make sure that they graduate.
– PAID prenatal care to women who are currently alive.
– Pension and post-retirement (ie, age 65) health care to anyone alive and over a pre-determined age (say, 50 or 55).
– Govt mandated Regerrymandering of school districts to make sure that all wealthy neighborhoods are combined with schools and neighborhoods that are poor and black. Any systematic redistribution of resources away from those neighborhoods will be punished (similar to how school districts were punished for maintaining segregated schools in the 1970s). If resegregation occurs, then the district boundaries will be redrawn until all the schools reach minimum graduation rates.
– Prohibit any school district from shirking their responsibility by setting up things like “segregation academies” and pulling their white students out of public schools. Any district doing that will have their school district regerrymandered and be fined.
– require all states to educate their black inmates with high school, and also with additional tax breaks for inmates which are provided with a university education. (I bet the states will not be in such a hurry to arrest and convict so many black “criminals”)
– prohibit states from removing voting rights from ex-felons who have already served their sentence. Any state or country or city doing that will be fined.
For some reason, I just feel that paying money to individuals will not work unless the money goes to correct the actual problems of institutionalized racism, and perpetrators be continuously punished in perpetuity (or at least for a minimum of 25 years, after all persons born already completely college. I wouldn’t see this as a handout.
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Reparations has never really been simply about paying money out to Black Americans. But this has been said enough times here that I doubt repeating this will have any effect on shifting that popular superficial point of view.
Here is another practical example of how and why it is needed now in the American context…
“…Discrimination Against Black Farmers…”
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m3xLeQxcCI&hd=1]
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Once again!
US courts pay out restitution (reparations) in the form of cash on a daily basis on the basis of wrong actions done by the guilty party.all across the nation.
So, where are are all these outspoken unsolicited voices and opinions on these daily (often public) judgments?
Why does almost every non-black person under the sun think that they have a effen right to weigh in on the matter of how reparations (if paid) should be paid, how much, how so and so forth??
Did black folks come to Japanese, Native American, and Jewish reparations matters/negotiations to insist that we weigh in on their financial matters.
I just don’t get this! In spite of apparent current beliefs, no one knows what’s best for me better than me. I would tell anyone who believes otherwise in a NY second to mind your own damn business. IF I wanted your opinion, I would solicit it!
If you ain’t black, I don’t give a rat’s behind about how or what YOU feel…!
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