Megyn Kelly, a White American news host of Fox News, informed her television viewers on December 11th 2013:
Santa just is white … Jesus is a white man too.
Archie Bunker, a self-parody of racism who appeared on American television in the 1970s, said:
Jesus was white and so is Santa Claus.
Kelly was commenting on an article in Slate by Aisha Harris, “Santa Claus Should Not Be a White Man Anymore”.
Harris, half-serious, half-tongue-in-cheek, said that Santa should be a penguin – Penguin Claus! Growing up, Santa was black at home, as in many black homes, but in the broader American culture he was white. A white Santa pushes the White Default, as does white James Bond and white Spiderman, but more powerfully since Santa is so important to small children.
Harris argues we can make Santa whatever we want. He no longer has anything to do with St Nicholas, who lived on the Mediterranean coast of what is now Turkey, not at the North Pole!
Santa Claus has changed over the years:
- 1773: first called Santa Claus, an Americanization of the New York Dutch nickname for St Nicholas.
- 1809: smokes a pipe, wears green (Washington Irving)
- 1823: a “chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf” with flying reindeer (Clement Moore)
- 1863: a fat white man (Thomas Nast)
- 1930: wears a red and white suit (Coca-Cola ads)
Megyn Kelly:
Santa just is white … Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change, you know?
Kelly’s guest Monica Crowley:
You can’t take facts and then try to change them to fit some sort of a political agenda or sensitivity agenda.
Santa’s whiteness, apparently, is a “fact” that cannot be changed. White people can accept the bit about flying reindeer, but his not being a white man is suddenly a violation of reality. Strange.
This is hardly an isolated case. You see it in debates about black hobbits. Harris points out that whiteness as default is so deeply rooted that when Rue in “The Hunger Games” (2012) was played by a black girl (Amandla Stenberg), many were shocked and upset. They had imagined Rue as a white girl, like maybe Dakota Fanning, blonde hair, blue eyes and all. Even though the book said Rue had “dark brown skin and eyes”!
Kelly later tried to play off the Santa-is-white thing as a joke, ha ha, and accused others of race baiting.
Harris:
I’ll be fine if no one else jumps on board the penguin train and Santa remains a white man. But if you’re seriously emphatic that he is white and must remain white, there’s a good chance that your view of the rest of the world is just as limited and unimaginative. I mean, we are talking about a magical man who slides down your chimney every Christmas Eve. Just so we’re clear.
See also:
- The White Default
- white privilege mindset
- St Nicholas
- Christmas – and Santa Claus
- Was Jesus white?
- Halloween – a good example of how some holiday traditions go back thousands of years while others go back less than a hundred
- The Republican bubble
Satan Claus is as white as she is blond. Enough with those babbling mind-killers already. They are ruining my Sinterklaas.
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Typical….nothing new here from the right and white people in general.
^_^
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Guess it’s a slow day for Fox News
How they’re still on the air is besides me.
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Tim Wise weighs in on this matter:
(excerpt)
“Tradition is, after all, the conservative guidepost; it is their very raison d’être. So once the image of a white Jesus has become established — as with Santa — that, and only that (rather than other niceties like historical accuracy) is what matters. This is why Rush Limbaugh’s defense of Megyn Kelly, which rested upon the simple exhortation that Santa (and presumably Jesus too) has “always been” white, strikes most right-wingers as perfectly sufficient. Facts are irrelevant. Tradition and the way things have always been are what matter. Tradition is what gives conservatives meaning. They are rudderless without it. And so to change (or even challenge) religious iconography, or even that of secular symbols like Santa takes on much grander psychological meaning for a bunch such as this. They long for the past, and fear change, so much so that it becomes the harbinger of their own doom. Tradition trumps fairness: so because heterosexual and monogamous marriage has been the norm for so long — though not nearly so long as they would have us believe — any attempt to “redefine marriage” is seen as a threat to their entire way of life. If Christianity has been the dominant and “normal” faith in the U.S., religious diversity becomes not a social good but a tainted and monstrous evil, the growth of which suggests that the oppression of Christians lies just around the corner. A greeting of “Happy Holidays” at the Wal-Mart, rather than one that prioritizes and presumes the supremacy of the Christian particular, becomes tantamount to the Nazis inviting Jews into the showers: a set-up, said with a smile, all the while hiding the pernicious intent of these peddlers of pluralism. This, and it really must be said, is derangement of a most disturbing kind.
What this means for most white people is simple enough. Even though no anthropologist or historian of first century Galilean Jews — which is to say Palestinians — would believe that Jesus could have been white, if that’s the image in the stained glass of one’s church, or on the Christmas card sent to you by your great-aunt Millie, well then, what do anthropologists know anyway? What is science compared to what makes us feel better? Indeed, this is the irony of Megyn Kelly’s rant last week: while she was lambasting an African American essayist who had argued that a white Santa was insufficiently inclusive — by telling her that “just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn’t mean it has to change” — the fact is, it is Megyn Kelly and white conservatives the world over who apparently need Jesus to be white. Which is why they changed him so as to make him such, even though many of the earliest depictions of him hewed more closely to the logical and historical truth. This truth is one that, it should be noted, has been explicated clearly by forensic anthropologists based on the available period-specific evidence, in their reconstructions of the face of Jesus. Suffice it to say that their scientifically more compelling image is one that would not only be rejected by most whites (and surely most who rely on FOX for their news), but would likely provoke them to deep and abiding anger.
Which brings us to the far more important point: namely, why do white people apparently require white heroes, icons and saviors? Because we quite obviously do. Surely one cannot think it coincidence that Jesus has been so rendered ever since Christianity came to be used in the service of European supremacy? Surely one cannot find it a capricious and fanciful whim — or mere artistic contrivance — that would cause Michelangelo, Mel Gibson and thousands more between to envision Jesus as essentially one of ours? Likewise, and on a far less serious note, do we really believe that Santa has “always been white” as Limbaugh put it — or as Kelly herself did in her defense, when referencing films like “Miracle on 34th Street” — because there were no darker actors capable of chortling “ho ho ho,” and rubbing their prodigious bellies?
No indeed, there are no coincidences here, and however much Megyn Kelly now wishes to play victim, proclaiming herself the unjust target of “race baiters,” such a conceit is rich and even precious coming from her: someone who spent several hours a few years back hyping an entirely nonsensical story about the New Black Panthers, and how they were intimidating white voters at a polling place in Philadelphia in 2008. And this she did, even though in all the hours of coverage she could produce not one actual voter at the precinct who claimed to have been intimidated (and indeed, there were none), and although even the leading conservative on the Civil Rights Commission, which investigated the charge called it much ado about nothing.
Megyn Kelly is not the victim. And it is not race-baiting to suggest that there might be something troubling about the racialization of Jesus as a white man, or that there might be something even more troubling about a grown and well-paid news figure insisting that Santa is anything. Whether one wishes to address it or not, there is a reason these icons have been rendered white, especially Jesus. It would hardly have done, one supposes, to allow the more historically accurate Jesus to predominate in the church paintings, as Europe branched out, seeking to conquer the globe in the name of money and power and land, proclaiming the inferiority of the darker types all the while (and most ironically, their spiritual inferiority). It would have been decidedly more difficult, one might imagine, to enslave and brutalize and rape and murder the black and brown, if those who did the deed had then to enter their churches on the Sabbath and pray to a savior whose visage bore an uncanny and haunting resemblance to the man they had just lynched the night before, as the Romans had done on a cross with another brother so many years before.
To make the savior of the universe (at least in Christian eyes) a white man is to make possible, literally, the enslavement of brown and black peoples, the evisceration of still others and the conquest of their land in the name of white superiority. These historic crimes are almost unthinkable in a society where truth and historical accuracy were valued more than white skin. Which is to say, when conservatives insist Megyn Kelly’s comments — and the beliefs of millions — that Jesus was white are only a matter of personal preference without consequence, they write and speak as if history didn’t happen. But it did, and it matters, however painful it might be for white people to face.
Because to admit that such a man as Jesus would have been brown — at least the color of, say, Osama bin Laden, if not darker — would be to admit that the very foundations of this country, and its normal operating procedures for most of its history — were a sin not merely against our professed civic and political principles, but a sin against God and the very Christianity upon which conservatives, at least, insist, this country was begun. And given the tendency of conservatives to view their God as particularly vengeful and given to wrath, one can quite easily understand why they might prefer to ignore their own transgressions in his eyes, and to change the subject — or at least the object of their theological affections — as quickly as possible.
But know this. If there be a God, it is quite certain that such a being is not nearly so gullible as the typical FOX News viewer, and therein lies the eternal problem for Megyn Kelly and all others like her.
May she (and they) sleep well at night.”
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Jim Goad wrote a fun piece about this on Taki’s Magazine.
http://takimag.com/article/santa_claus_still_white_jim_goad#axzz2nkudho8S
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Funny how everyone is focusing on the Santa part….and not the Jesus part. Who’s name wasn’t even Jesus as the letter “J” wasn’t yet invented. His name was Yeshua. And He and his family hid among the Egyptians. Who we know were not Caucasoid. Why are these people so hellbent on whitewashing everything? I just don’t get it. It’s a pathology. It must be.
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I just had an idea. Let’s make Santa Black, but from now on, Martin Luther King, Jr. has to be played by a Chinese person.
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futurodellanazione,
I have an idea… why don’t white people like you and Megyn Kelly learn to deal with History as it happened…. and recognize that Santa Claus, as we know him today, is Not Real!
Santa Claus is a fictional character based on the real life Bishop, St. Nicholas_ who was from south of Turkey
he wasn’t a jolly, white NORDIC fat man–he was most likely a swarthy, brown looking man (like most Mediterraneans, Turks, Arabs of that time), who became “white” as the barbarian western Europeans converted to Christianity… making St. Nicholas into their “own image” and embellishing his deeds
so yeah, if someone wants to make Santa Claus “black” for a commercial, school event or Mall sitting, No one should give a rats behind since white Europeans/ Americans morphed and changed St. Nicholas’ ethnicity to make themselves “more comfortable” in the first place
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/who-is-st-nicholas/
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Linda:
So…is this your way of saying you LIKE my “Chinese MLK” idea?
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Tim Wise makes a point about heroes and race; why do white people need white saviors?
Why do black people need a black santa?
Truth is; its just racism….whites wouldn’t need to change Jesus from a dark skinned jew to Thor’s half-brother and black people wouldn’t need to change Santa from white to black.
Though I don’t really think you can discount the mythological Santa Claus from Saint Nicholas all that much….I mean one of his names or titles is after all “Saint Nick”.
It is interesting that people can see the prejudice of wanting something to stay one race but not wanting to change something from a race to your own.
I mean if there was a white sub-group in some other place over in Asia, Africa, etc…..and they wanted to change some centuries old myth from the main race to their own….
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@linda
But in changing Santa from white to black and not to Mediterranean….won’t black people be committing the same act themselves “more comfortable”?
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@futurodellanazione,
Wow Taki is still around? lol. I’d thought that old coke head Greek socialite/ over the hill playboy would’ve drifted off to the pasture by now. Also, your Santa/MLK, J. suggestions is silly as Santa is a fictional character and MLK, Jr was real.
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ks:
That’s not what the Editor told Virginia. Yes, there IS a Santa Claus! You ol’ Grinch.
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Come on guys, Santa is obviously white, but on the Northpole, where he is said to live, you mean somebody’s hair color with that, as evidenced by all those darkskinned polar bears being called white. The idea that it means he is very fair skinned, is just a cultural misunderstanding…
In case you want to be a bit more serious, the only evidence that the real life Saint Nicholas was fairly fair skinned, is a letter telling about a sort of portrait made of him during his life, showing him blushing… How dark can somebody be and still be shown by a painter as blushing?
On the other hand, there used to be a strong tradition depicting him as darkskinned, so much that it was pointed out that he was not a (blacka)moor, though the difference was not in the color of his skin. For the more practically minded, there is a possibility that the legendary Saint Nicholas is based on two bishops of the same name, who lived in the same region, they may have had different skin colors, for all I know.
The Dutch tradition, is a bit complex, but featured quite some black characters too, so I guess some Yankees have made up all that whiteness, without a black companion of some sort, entirely by themselves.
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This reminds me of the boondocks episode when they went to the garden party and granddad told huey he can’t tell white people the truth.
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I really couldn’t care less about anything that Megan Kelly, or Elizabeth Hasselbeck, or any other bleached blonde airhead on Fox ‘News’ thinks. Their delusional, narcissistic views on everything mean nothing to me, and never will.
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I think Black Santa is a good idea.
http://toiletnationusa.com/2013/12/17/i-dont-know-maybe/
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“V4,
But in changing Santa from white to black and not to Mediterranean….won’t black people be committing the same act themselves “more comfortable”
Linda says,
No, because black people are not the ones that made St. Nicholas into a fictional character, and it was the white western Europeans who originally changed his phenotype… so the morphing buck begins with white Europeans…
My point is, since the original living person has had his physical features and Ethnicity changed and morphed by a different race/Ethnic group already in the past,
then there should be no problem for other Ethnic groups to morph him into their own image if they want to… everyone is aware that the Europeans made the character Santa Claus “white”
to temporarily change the identity of a fictional Character (Santa Claus), should not have made the News because for all we know,
it’s possible that N. America’s Santa Claus can’t work this year — so his fat and jolly dark-skinned cousin, Sam, (father’s brother from another mother) decided to help cousin Nick out, by delivering presents and visiting children in the Malls because Nicks bunions and gout makes it hard for him to walk around 🙂
even Santa needs vacation time too_he should have stayed with the Santa union.
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“Harris points out that whiteness as default is so deeply rooted that when Rue in “The Hunger Games” (2012) was played by a black girl (Amandla Stenberg), many were shocked and upset. They had imagined Rue as a white girl, like maybe Dakota Fanning, blonde hair, blue eyes and all. Even though the book said Rue had “dark brown skin and eyes”!”
I don’t wish to derail this thread with the Hunger Games but I’d be interested in Abagong take on that series in maybe a new thread.
I’m reminded of the Jamaican last supper picture where everyone is Black except for Judas who is White.
Abrahamic religions are suppose to transcend race since were “all made in the image of God”. The problem comes when religion, race and empire become intertwined to marginalize and coerce everyone else.
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lol I will say this let them have all the fictional characters be white they can have white santa aka white satan, they can have white jesus too. there is no j in the Hebrew language anyway so they made the name up. oh so its ok for us to see black characters changed into near white but its world war 3 if a white character is changed into something else. how many times have we read books and the character is described as dark skin only to see the movie and the character gets turned into near white? oh but that is ok for us to endure ,but u even mention some fake santa clause is black and all he11 breaks loose. it is a fake character for crying out loud, so nobody knows what he looks like it could look like ur grandma without a good shave for all we know. it is imagination that created santa so anybody can imagine what he looks like. To me satan claws represents what Christmas has become anyway, commercialized and spend all ur money with whites. It is ok for santa to be white and to them it is ok for the slaves I mean elves to be black just look at the dutch having black pete nobody wants to change that and thinks it’s a great tradition. Its fine for the helpers to be black but the big guy running things always has to be white. If I have kids there will be no santa clause black white or otherwise. kids get told enough lies as it is especially black kids can’t sugar coat white supremacy. santa clause is just another tactic to have ppl look at white as the savior and giver. it can’t be a black santa because it would interfere with their sterotypes about us being selfish and leeching off of others and not giving back. f that, black ppl don’t need to have a black santa clause we are already great, black ppl give the most to charities but again they don’t want u to know that. They want blacks to be looked at as bad, lazy, selfish, and thieves. not as givers, caring, loving, compassionate ppl. that is what Christmas was all about.
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“The Dutch tradition, is a bit complex, but featured quite some black characters too, so I guess some Yankees have made up all that whiteness, without a black companion of some sort, entirely by themselves.”
_ _ _
Hmm. For some reason, I don’t feel that a Schwartz Piet (“Black Pete”) type of Santa’s helper would go over all that well amongst US Blacks.
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“santa clause is just another tactic to have ppl look at white as the savior and giver. it can’t be a black santa because it would interfere with their sterotypes about us being selfish and leeching off of others and not giving back. f that, black ppl don’t need to have a black santa clause we are already great, black ppl give the most to charities but again they don’t want u to know that. They want blacks to be looked at as bad, lazy, selfish, and thieves. not as givers, caring, loving, compassionate ppl. that is what Christmas was all about.”
*********
I love much of the things you write — and the way you say them!!!!!
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The fact that Megyn Kelly is one of those annoying talking heads from Fox News is galling enough, and this whole discourse about the race of Santa Claus is just so ridiculous, who cares what color he is, it’s all about the spirit of the season.
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The link below is to a blog article concerning the Dutch fascination with their “Black Pete”. The article features a couple of pics of blackface donning, foppishly attired “Zwarte Piet” impersonators.
From various pics I’ve seen, It is apparently typical for whites to impersonate this Black character even though there are Blacks who reside in those same countries where Zwarte / Schwartz Piet is a Christmas tradition.
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mstoogood4yall:
For the love of god…SPACES! PLEASE! LOL
I didn’t read your post, because the sea of words without a space, punctuations, ect…
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mary burrell:
“this whole discourse about the race of Santa Claus is just so ridiculous, who cares what color he is, it’s all about the spirit of the season.”
I’ll give you the part about Santa Claus, being he is a fictional, character.
However, Jesus being white is not something i will concede too.
I am still waiting for a black man or woman to make a movie about Jesus and have his historically accurate, skin color.
I know for certain a white man or woman, won’t do it so i am not holding my breath.
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Pay It Forward:
The tradition was there first. Any immigrants of color (or their spawn) who disapprove should either:
A) accept the traditions of their new homeland or
B) leave the new homeland and return to their ancestral homeland.
Fair enough?
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Thanks matari
@ sondis
sorry I was in rant mode at least I didn’t go into an ALL CAPS RAGE. lol yeah I forgot to space the paragraphs.
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futurodellanazione:
“The tradition was there first. Any immigrants of color (or their spawn) who disapprove should either:
A) accept the traditions of their new homeland or
B) leave the new homeland and return to their ancestral homeland.
Fair enough?”
Hmm, maybe you should take your own advice.. Native Americans were here first, therefore was the first to have, traditions.
How about you and your fellow Europeans, you’re speaking for, choose plan B?
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mstoogood4yall:
Its all good. ^_^
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First of all , the whole Santa Claus things is a myth, mixed with legend, mixed with VERY little to do with Christianity and its development.I never let my children believe that lie anyway.They are all the better for it. So, let Santa be white …I don’t care…Jesus wan’t born on December 25th…. I.. don’t care. Yuletide is actually a norther European tradition co opted by the early Catholic Church because those folks were the western out posts of the Holy Roman Empire. Yuletide season was a PAGAN holiday coinciding with winter’s solstice….and again I don’t care. But Jesus was not white …nor could he be. Europe became Christian as declared by Constantine Oct 28, 321 AD.
He won a battle and saw victory as a divine sign.
it AMAZES me how many white people don’t even know or try to know their own history. White supremacy is why they are perfectly confident looking stupid on whitewash TV….and again…I don’t care. Ms. Kelly knows she can AFFORD to BE stupid and a gaffe can be played with ” the WHITEFOLKS” MONOPOLY get outta jail free card. Another dumb blonde gettin’ paid
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Another reason santa can’t be black is because it would ruin their wet dream of having a white christmas. santa is white, snow is white, movies about Christmas have white casts. I better put on my glasses so I won’t get snow blindness from all this white.*puts on glasses*.
ugh the songs are kind of annoying too, i’m dreaming of a white Christmas. chestnuts roasting on an open fire. smh the only color we see during this time of year is rudolph’s red nose.
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the funny thing is if jesus and saint nick were around today whites probably wouldn’t recognize them just like they didn’t recognize jesus back then lol. they would probably call them terrorists cuz apparently anybody from overseas that isn’t pale white is a terrorist.
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Remember mstoogood4yall,
Snowblindness distorts reality….GIMME SOME GLASSES TOO!!! and a margarita to go
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^ rofl, I can’t give u a margarita i’m not 21 lol. but I can make some hot chocolate.
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Well, hmmmm Abagond is over 21..He can do that…….you just get the glasses
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lol i’ll get the glasses will these work https://cdn.sunglasswarehouse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/men-in-black-sunglasses-1024×819.jpg
peanut no i’m not 21 yet he11 i’m not even 20 yet lol.
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Sondis:
What native Americans?
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@kiwi: LOL!
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The only thing I can say is Bah Humbug!!!!
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futurodellanazione
Or I propose c. Neither. In your free time you should read up on free agency. I am sure it will save you from further comments of such massive stupidity. 🙂
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Having a black santa is like having a hanukka bush. You can do it but you’ll still feel inadequate. You should have the presents delivered by Rufus, Santa’s colored chauffeur. Seriously. That’s the kind of thing my dad would have done. It’s funny. Anything else is just pathetic.
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@Da Jokah
What you said only applies to the dumb peoplewho believe Iin santa. He is not real…he can be purple…and you know what??? A rational person would not give a sh*t.
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* in
Excuse typos
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White people would throw a conniption if a fictional character is portrayed as black. But unsurprisingly, when PoC characters – fictional or real – are portrayed as whites, and this has happened, it’s not only okay, but they even defend it.
Da Jokah,
Tell me again, how are you not racist? At this point your “Santa colored chauffeur” just illustrate how racist you really are. Deny it, but it won’t fly. We’re not slow to not notice. Try again.
What you said is a nod to Zwarte Piet. (Look it up) Then again, you would probably celebrate such a character. Don’t make me laugh.
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Let’s get this straight OK? Zwarte Piet is not a Christmas tradition, he is nowhere to be seen with Christmas, he is a companion of Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of (innocent) prisoners and appeared during the days of the abolition days. He can be seen as similar to “Uncle Tom”, another ANTI-slavery icon, though better dressed. Complex, as I said.
The Dutch have a Calvinist rather than a Lutheran heritage and thus kept Saint Nicholas and Christmas seperate. Anyway, Zwarte Piet was not around yet, nor was any national Dutch form of the Saint Nicholas celebration.when the tradition got to America, (though some form of probably-non-racially-motivated-black-face WAS, and that shows that as far as the Dutch are concerned, Santa could be black, if he wants too)
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brothaworlf
Tell me again how you’re not a racist. You wear race on your sleeve looking for things to bltch about. Having a colored chauffeur named Rufus driving Santa’s sleigh and helping to deliver presents is hilarious. And keeps black kids from feeling left out. You could say stuff like, “Rufus is the one really doing the work while Santa is sleeping it off in the back of the sleigh.” That’s funny. If I were black I’d absolutely do that with my kids.
Regardless, this illustrates the nasty attitudes some of you have. Instead of having fun and doing something like that you have to be hateful, badmouth Santa, badmouth Christmas, badmouth whites, etc. Some of you have a problem and I’ll illustrate with an example.
My dad recently told me a story. He stopped by Walgreen’s and sat in the car while my mom went inside. A black woman was walking across the parking lot with a fast food drink. She was a little ways in front of my dad’s car when she threw it down. She looked around and realized my dad had seen her. My dad hadn’t said anything. He didn’t make any gestures or facial expressions. He was just sitting there minding his own business. But she walks back. Picks it up, looks right at my dad and throws it down again with a scowl and walks off. LOL!
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“Brothawolf
White people would throw a conniption if a fictional character is portrayed as black.”
This very thing happended as abagond pointed out.
“Rue in “The Hunger Games” (2012) was played by a black girl (Amandla Stenberg), many were shocked and upset. They had imagined Rue as a white girl, like maybe Dakota Fanning, blonde hair, blue eyes and all. Even though the book said Rue had “dark brown skin and eyes”!”
I am never surprised when it comes to white people, they are so racist.
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The Santa is ___ debate is laughable because I guess along the way people forgot he doesn’t exist.
The Rue outrage is always weird to me, the book clearly describes her as black but whatever, It’s like people read a different book.
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“Let’s get this straight OK? Zwarte Piet is not a Christmas tradition, he is nowhere to be seen with Christmas, he is a companion of Saint Nicholas.”
_ _ _
OK. I’ve got it straight now.
A Google search on on “Zwarte Piet + Christmas”, however, returns lots of articles which either connect the figure to Christmas, or which state outright that the figure is a “Christmas tradition”. Perhaps you can “get this straight” with the writers of those articles as well.
None of any of this, of course, negates the points made in my comments regarding present day blackface impersonations of Zwarte Piet, or the unlikelihood that the figure would go over well (as being the buffoonish Black sidekick of ANY white person) with Blacks in the US.
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Hey Abagond. This is the commenter formerly known as Perpetually Perpetrating Panda. I gave up and finally decided to restart my old wordpress account. This will be my commenting name from now on.
I am of two minds about this. If it is okay to change the race/ethnicity of a fictional person, what is wrong about ‘white washing’ a fictional character? You could make the assertion that Santa is well known and therefore has a bigger effect on the minds of young people. But if that is the case, then you can say that white washing a minority character won’t have that much of an impact.
But then the retort would be minorities aren’t shown much ‘good’ possibilities and it is important for them to get a good example. I don’t know that to think. I can go both ways on this.
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i don’t really see where anybody said santa is or should be black. the only thing i’m seeing here is people saying why can’t it be ok to dress up as santa if u are black. what are we supposed to do? it was a black kid that dressed up as santa and went to school and the teacher told him he couldn’t. Would it have been more acceptable if he put on a white wig, and put on white makeup? but then wouldn’t yall same ppl complain its black in white face and omg reverse racism?
Its ok for whites to dress up as blacks and put on blackface for halloween but how dare a black person dress up as a white character and keep their black skin. I thought that is the respectful thing to do. Just like i wouldn’t have a problem if a white person dressed up as a black character the problem comes when they feel the need to darken their skin and act a certain way to make it more “authentic”.
Why are people so insecure? i hear people saying oh mlk is black he should be white, ok he can be white when a white person has their house fire bombed, is stabbed,threatened, added to the watchlist, and is assassinated. he11 i wouldn’t go as mlk or any of the other great leaders because i respect them and didn’t have to endure what they did. Mlk was a real person santa isn’t. if people want to dress as mlk and they are white more power to u just leave the blackface at home. if u want to dress as obama u don’t need blackface or u could just make it easier on yourself and go as bush.
My point is be original u don’t have to darken or lighten ur skin to impersonate or pay homage to someone that is another race/ethnicity. Something is wrong when people feel the need to attack a child for wanting to dress as somebody else or for wanting to be themselves .heck i’ve seen asian and blacks dress as superman and wonderwoman is that also a problem? If it is a problem for poc to dress up as most of the white characters we see on tv then that is funny. when there are more poc fictional characters then people won’t feel the need to dress up as the mostly white fictional characters they see.
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This woman felt the need to address the children even if they don’t watch the news because that is how white supremacy is carried on, through the children. I think she was more reassuring the little white girl in herself ,that santa is white. its ok kids santa is white but there are some uppity negroes saying he shouldn’t be. i’m more entertained by the fact she covering a lie with another lie. its ok children santa is white, *exhale* ppheew, i thought she was going to say santa isn’t real, oh thank goodness he’s still real.
at this point i wonder what is worse to them, a black santa or him not being real.
white child: ” what color is santa?” parent: “oh he is white now go to sleep so he can bring ur presents”
white child ” are u sure have u ever seen him?” parent ” no i haven’t seen him u are not supposed to see him just like u aren’t supposed to see that little becky with wings flying around stealing ,i mean taking people’s teeth she’s white too u know.” white child :” ok so if you’ve never seen them how do u know they exist?”
parent : ” well i know because i am the adult and u are supposed to believe and it will happen.” White child: ” oh u mean like god we are supposed to believe but not see him right?” parent :” yes my child they are like god, and yes they are all white, now go to sleep and dream of a white christmas”
black child: ” is santa real?” parent : ” no baby he’s not do u really think anything is free in this world?” black child:” no i didn’t”
parent ” ur father and i work very hard to get u presents and this year u will not get any because we feel u are old enough to go without a present.” black child: ” oh, well if santa isn’t real why do ppl think he is white?” parent: ” well sweetie it’s just a way for white folks to lie to their kids and let them have another white face to look at to affirm their whiteness.” black child ” is that why they get mad ?” parent ” idk if that is why but i would imagine being lied to all the time and treated as a child would make u feel mad.” black child ” oh well i actually feel sorry for my classmates that they get told a lie every year until they get older and figure it out.” parent ” alright well that is enough truth for one night, goodnight.”
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@ Legion
I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that she is worse than the posts suggests because she is telling children directly that Santa is white, knowing that some of them will not be white?
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@ abagond, the way Legion describes it was the way I interpreted too.
Megyn Kelly looks directly at the viewer and lays it down straight.
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@ kevinblyton
American film and television, even without whitewashing, is already way whiter than the country. Whitewashing adds insult to injury. Racism is not symmetrical, so in practice whitewashing is way worse than blackwashing.
For example, James Bond and Doctor Who have been a white man every single time for the past 50 years. Nothing about their character requires that. James Bond is a British spy. Doctor Who is an alien. Having Idris Elba play James Bond or Richard Ayoade play Doctor Who (my choices) is not “just as bad as” whitewashing because it adds balance rather than adding to the current imbalance. (I know those are British shows, but Britain is hardly lily white either – and both shows have huge overseas audiences).
A country’s media should more or less reflect its demographics. Not necessarily on a show-by-show basis but overall. Otherwise there is good reason to suspect that it is racist.
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@mstoogood4yall
Well said!
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ah gawd make it stop! I guess this meme is irking me because i had it out with my mom, who was butting in to my secular preference (which was also overridden by my ex’s jewish culture), talkin about oh the kids need their fantasy of santa and the easter bunny, i don’t think so, mommy and daddy bought those things for you
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@Abagond. I see your point. Thank you for answering. 🙂
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@ mstoogood
I can imagine that conversation…! Lol!
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Abagond:
First of all, Ayoade will always be Dean Learner. Let’s not trample that memory.
Secondly, I think your idea of “balance” is askew. A black Santa is as revisionist as a blue-eyed Jesus. These are both hallmarks of either ignorant or insecure people.
If you genuinely cared about demographic balance with regards to historic/mythological entities, perhaps you might lobby for the portrayal of Jesus as a woman. After all, nearly half of all Christians are female.
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@ Randy
Oh please. Jesus was a real person in history. Santa Claus and James Bond are not. To the degree that Santa Clause is “real” – as St Nicholas – he has been “revised” to death.
To people like Megyn Kelly, St Nicholas, if brought back to life, would be a “Muslim”, an “Arab”, a “terrorist” – because he would seem like a foreigner from the Middle East. People like him are only “white” when they assimilate as White Americans (Marlo Thomas, Ralph Nader, Steve Jobs) or do something whites want to take credit for (the alphabet, Christianity, sainthood).
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The real Lone Ranger was a black man but I’ve only ever seen him as a white man. Where’s the balance there?
I heard there’s going to be a film about the 1950s style icon and playboy — Porfirio Rubirosa. He was so successful with women he was hailed as “The World’s Greatest Lover.
He was from the Dominican Republic and not a white man. The “obvious” choice to play him…Antonio Banderas, of course.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2156698/The-playboy-called-Mr-Ever-Ready-Despite-short-violent-high-society-beauties-Monroe-Ava-Gardner-jumped-bed-Porfirio-Rubirosa.html
Are these 2 examples (among many more) the hallmarks of ignorance or insecurity?
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Isn’t it also “reflective” of a population, too, when the role of mascot or symbol in a country is filled by a brown or black person?
For instance Nina Davuluri, Miss America. More recently, Flora Coquerel — the new and definitely brown, Miss France. There’s a lot of familiar sounding backlash there, too. A lot of people upset because they feel that France should be only represented by a woman who is white, not a woman who has a mother who is West African.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pltGfVoS5BY)
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You know, like so much that comes out of Fox news and the rest of the right-wing mouthpiece, I just wonder what the point is. I mean why make that argument? It’s just dumb. Why even dedicate news time to the Slate piece? Is it really news? I mean couldn’t the Onion run a headline that says “Writer thinks Santa should be substituted with a penguin”? Would it be out of place? Maybe Fox is trying its hand at tongue-in-cheek? In any case, it’s stupid.
If you want to change Santa, go for it. But you can’t change Santa by saying, “hey we should change Santa”. You have to do it, and do it so convincingly that the meaning of Santa is reinterpreted in a way that supplants the old meaning. It has to be real. People smell the fake. Disclosing change over time doesn’t prove that a cultural symbol is fake, just that it has been made meaningful again and again. That meaning is real, I think. Might make for a good argument against timeless truths, but that’s a different issue. I wonder if Blacks and Whites are capable of sharing cultural symbols, of reinterpreting them together. I’d like to think we are, but togetherness is hard. Maybe sports is the best we can do.
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@ The Texan
It is not dumb. It is political. Fox News knows exactly what it is doing:
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Legion, we can hope…but this is France and French symbolism at stake.
By that, I mean the core of French-ness. that feels under attack 😀
Seriously, we are talking about the emblem/symbol of France, here: Marianne.
Also known as LIBERTY, as in the Statue of Liberty, France’s gift to America. Marianne is a woman, the figurehead of France, her statue is all over the place in France, in town halls, etc, France’s postage stamps, on € coins…
http://www.midi-france.info/06141211_marianne.htm
So, yes, some white French are going to be hurt by the daughter of a black woman representing Beautiful France. This is an expression France’s deeply colonialist outlook and feeling of racial superiority over everyone.
It’s a conservative kind of culture, under all the style.
What is at stake is the IDEAL of French womanhood, and White Beauty, which must be remain untouched. Hence, objections like the new Miss France could not have won the title if Nelson Mandela had not died, and so on.
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Liberty and Marianne are sometimes interchanged but not “the same” symbol; both symbols represent France and are always female.
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@Abagond & Legion:
Oh yeah, I know all about the Southern Strategy, and Fox News is, well, Fox News. It’s still dumb, though. Even if Fox does ‘know what it’s doing” (and I think think they do), it’s short-sighted. They’ve commodified a brand of racism and paranoia that they have to know will provide diminishing returns. Even now that material doesn’t sell like it used to back in, say, 2004-05. People thought Fox was signalling a change when it promoted Megyn Kelly post live-air grilling of Carl Rove on election night because it appeared she was a legitimate truth-seeker. Strange that she’d damage her own “brand”. But then again, everyone has their price.
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@Legion
Applause. Your stealing the show on here lately. Lol
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@ Legion: your superb comment on teaching orthodoxy is worth a post on its own. It motivates me to read the thread on the whiteness of Laura Ingalls Wilder.
Thank you.
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Legion, you’re talking about political coercion using different methods.
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Not sure what’s funnier: the fact that a bimbo who has never seen Santa or Jesus but believes them to be white, or the silly debate we’re having over the race of two fictitious characters…
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About that setting straight about Piet, it’s simple: The name day of Saint Nicholas and its eve are celebrated in EARLY December, Christmas is celebrated in LATE december. Saint Nick is common to both, but to the Dutch, the Belgians and people taking both events religiously serious, Saint Nicholas as Father Christmas is a mockery of christianity and an assault on both holidays.
Whether American blacks would like Piet, if he were part of their culture? I guess some would, some would not. Just imagine that back in the last century of slavery in some oppressed christian circles in a certain city of importance, Santa would have gotten a black companion, somebody to carry the toys, while Santa would carry the candy, imagine then that a member of a charitable society, with abolitionist views, would write a book, which not just told everything a child needed to know about Santa and his companion(s), threatened white children to be treated, like black children where treated by the slavery system, but also made made the companion even more beloved than Santa himself, making sure that both white kiddies and black kiddies got a fictional, immortal, incorruptable black hero… A fictional character whose blackness people would defend, like some are now defending Santa’s whiteness, some with facts, others with nonsense. I guess black Americans would like him better than white ones, which would not stop them from complaining about racist portrayals of the character.
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@ Legion, your explanation of Anti-politics sheds light in other corners! https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/obama-cries-for-white-children/#comment-205932
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Wow, as a little girl I never knew the color of Santa. Santa was invisible to me as the tooth fairy. Now days some kids believe the parents buy their gifts. Then dad dress as Santa and put the toys under the tree. tsk tsk tsk
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The case is solved (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugT9uPG51Ko)
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Not sure what’s funnier: the fact that a bimbo who has never seen Santa or Jesus but believes them to be white, or the silly debate we’re having over the race of two fictitious characters…
The bimbo is funnier by a hair.
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Bulnick said. “Liberty and Marianne are sometimes interchanged but not “the same” symbol; both symbols represent France and are always female.”
And Justice is a White woman whose blindfolded.
The symbols of Liberty and Justice reflect the Western Empire and have a White women as the default symbol of justice, freedom and virtue. The Age of Enlightenment developed the idea of freedom to mean unalienable and universal liberties except in practice these ideals only applied to White people.
MLK talked a lot about freedom but a google search didn’t show a quote where he used the word “liberty”.
Am I thinking too much ?
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@ bulanik
“The real Lone Ranger was a black man but I’ve only ever seen him as a white man. Where’s the balance there?”
yep and i’ll add they have said the first people on earth were black yet they stay having adam and eve being white. Science has proven they were black yet still they get portrayed as white. *crickets* but then again we know why they do this because everything that is heroic, innocent, kind, is supposed to be white.
When a black person saves somebody its hardly any news coverage unless the black person gives an animated interview like charles ramsey then they want to auto tune it and sell it. Other than that compare how long a black person that saved lives and was calm how long was their story covered. Just compare how charles ramsey’s vid was on the news for a while, but antoinette tuff wasn’t.
The coon stereotype and the black people are bad stay away stereotype is what drives them. They feel the need to attack black youth and black women because we are easy targets. The whole thing was to put black youth in their place and say hey don’t yall dare look at urselves as being anything, u can’t be fake santa, u can’t be a superhero, u can’t be the lone ranger, anything that is good or heroic is white.
Then we wonder why black kids always choose the black doll when they ask which doll is the bad doll? nothing has changed they are still not seeing people that look like them being black superheroes, black cowboys, black soldiers, etc. They are constantly told what they can’t do or shouldn’t do. U can’t dress as santa because u are black. u shouldn’t walk around with a hoodie because u are black.
it is up to parents to teach their kids that they come from people that have done amazing things, but at the same time some parents don’t even know some of the amazing things our people have done.
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Da Jokah
Tell me again how you’re not a racist. You wear race on your sleeve looking for things to bltch about. Having a colored chauffeur named Rufus driving Santa’s sleigh and helping to deliver presents is hilarious. And keeps black kids from feeling left out. You could say stuff like, “Rufus is the one really doing the work while Santa is sleeping it off in the back of the sleigh.” That’s funny. If I were black I’d absolutely do that with my kids.
Of course you would shift the question back to me without answering me first.
Of course, you would see my issues with race as something trivial to you. That’s you’re whole mantra here. Meanwhile, you constantly bring up white victimization at the hands of black racism. So, I’m not the only one wearing my race on my sleeve here, pal.
Having a black chauffeur cater to a white Santa is not only funny to you, but it’s something you enjoy seeing as it pictures a black man serving a white man, the basis for white supremacy. So, don’t try to discard it with your “race realist” babble like you will do as you live in your own little Bizarro world where whites living in a white dominated nation is the most oppressed race in this side of the hemisphere. What a joke.
Regardless, this illustrates the nasty attitudes some of you have. Instead of having fun and doing something like that you have to be hateful, badmouth Santa, badmouth Christmas, badmouth whites, etc. Some of you have a problem and I’ll illustrate with an example.
As usual, you throw a spitball at someone, and wonder why that someone gets upset. We don’t see your Santa servant image as funny. You may get a kick out of images that harken back to the golden age of film where black people were cast as nothing but servants to whites. I’m sure you would like to go back to those times, eh?
We see it as offensive, and guess what, if you think it’s a laugh, who cares. We won’t submit to your racist sense of humor as chuckle with you like drones. We are not your servants here, bud. I know that saddens you so.
My dad recently told me a story. He stopped by Walgreen’s and sat in the car while my mom went inside. A black woman was walking across the parking lot with a fast food drink. She was a little ways in front of my dad’s car when she threw it down. She looked around and realized my dad had seen her. My dad hadn’t said anything. He didn’t make any gestures or facial expressions. He was just sitting there minding his own business. But she walks back. Picks it up, looks right at my dad and throws it down again with a scowl and walks off. LOL!
I’m sure that’s hilarious to you like watching keys jingle in front of your face.
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When I was young, I wanted to someday remake every fairy tale and imaginary icon black. The HBO animated program “Happily Ever After: Fairy Tales for Every Child” influenced me. I even thought about creating a black/African version of Santa Claus. You know, I may still do that.
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@Brothawolf
And his comment above is exactly why he will always be considered a joke. He always gets on here and whines about hurt feelings and “oh you did this to the white people.” instead of ” having fun and doing something like” he chooses to clutter the board with his massive projections and insecurities.
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@Brothawolf: You can still do that, why not? Be like Nike and just do it.
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You could always do what my parents use to do. When I asked if Santa was black they told me yes. Of course at the time I said no way. Then they told me that Black Santa knew who he was but if I didn’t he might not need to drop any gifts my way. Presto Chango, I didn’t have an issue with Black Santa anymore.
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However I do agree with someone who here that spotted that this is the diversion for us to not look at the man behind the curtain. Having been gone for about 16 years I have notice a lot of workers’ rights have disappeared. The banks are really screwing us, prices for about everything have gone up but wages haven’t really moved.
If there was a real Santa may he be black or white, I would ask for a boom economy.
@ King I wish I could be a better writer. I have a very incomplete black fairy tale that I wish could finish itself up.
Anyone announcing any absolutes about Santa on TV is an idiot. The image of Santa isn’t even universal. Santa could be wearing red, blue, green. He may be called Father Christmas and hang out with a certain young woman. He may have a demon named Krumpus with him. He could be Father Flogg, or Hans Trapp, naming absolute makes her just a dumb American whose mouth is much bigger than her brain.
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But isn’t this what Fox News is all about anyway? Forget about Santa, Fox News is about anti-blackness. Even the sellout uncle toms on Fox news are anti black and white washed.
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Sharina,
Exactly. He wants to go back to the “good ole’ days” where white supremacy was obvious. His entertainment reflects his love of being amused by black people, nothing taking them serious enough to engage in a civil conversation. The only time when he pays attention to black people is if he hears about a black-on-white crime or if they do something to humor him like act inappropriate or bizarre.
That’s why I suggested that he would like Holland’s brand of Christmas.
Santa Claus, known as Sinterklaas over in those parts, doesn’t have reindeer. Instead he has a helper named Zwarte Piet (Black Pete), a character that resembles the Black Sambo image. But the thing is, he’s really white.
I think the story is that when Pete went down the chimney, he got dirtied and came out resembling more like a black man. He even came out with an Afro. Yet, his clothes aren’t dirty.
Zwarte Piet is a Christmas-styled black face costume as white dutch people dress up as him around this time of year.
There’s currently a protest to abolish the character.
Mary Burrell,
I just may do it some day. Hopefully, I will feel up to it.
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The fact that this is considered “news” in the first place speaks volumes not only about Fox News’ brand of dumbed down conservative journalism, but the state of journalism in general. Commentators on a News Channel are screaming about the race of a fictional character on a supposed 24-hour news network.
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Too Funny,
I support the idea of a black santa, or whatever name might be chosen. I like to see kids happy. I support a separate, but equal, set of holidays and fairy tales to all races. I want you to be happy too.
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@Linda
I don’t think that argument really works…..someone else did it before me….isn’t much of a justification.
@Abagond
Actually; thats’ kind of an interesting statement in regards to “Jesus” existing or not…..there wasn’t a tall white guy named Jesus doing them…..maybe an average heighted swarthy greek looking guy named Yeshua.
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Santa Claus is whatever ethnicity your parents are. Saint Nicolas was white, though.
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Why not change the image of Santa Claus to a CareBear? It could work! Magical-check, Friendly-check, Universal-appeal check 😉
Fox News is nothing more than an undercover KKK affiliated network, catering to the fears of white folk. If you wanna know what typical white folk are like turn it on. It’s truly a fascinating study of the narcissistic personality.
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@Riverside_Rob
You want to know what is even more funny (and pathetic)? You support separation yet spend your free time on a black blog complaining. Must be nice to be the biggest delusional individual in the room. 🙂
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“The true story of Santa Claus begins with Nicholas, who was born during the third century in the village of Patara. At the time the area was Greek and is now on the southern coast of Turkey. His wealthy parents, who raised him to be a devout Christian, died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Obeying Jesus’ words to “sell what you own and give the money to the poor,” Nicholas used his whole inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering. He dedicated his life to serving God and was made Bishop of Myra while still a young man. Bishop Nicholas became known throughout the land for his generosity to those in need, his love for children, and his concern for sailors and ships……
Read more if you wish here:
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/who-is-st-nicholas/
BTW How white are the southern Turks?
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@Legion
“people like to pretend myth holds no sway, but that’s hogwash”
Yes myths have great influence on juveniles and people with juvenile minds. But when you grow up you learn to separate myth from reality.
@melody
Saint Nicolas was from Turkey, and I doubt any white American would have considered him white, and yes, the people who lived in that region back then were much different than they are today.
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@resw77
That is quite similar to what I was going to tell melody, but more like “sure he is white by American standards.”
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Both St. Nicholas and Jesus of Nazareth are historically verified persons. You may not agree to their claims or to the traditions that surround them, but they are as real as george Washington, historically.
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Lifelearner – your screen name suits you well.
“Fox News is nothing more than an undercover KKK affiliated network, catering to the fears of white folk. If you wanna know what typical white folk are like turn it on. It’s truly a fascinating study of the narcissistic personality.”
***********
Yes indeed. For those that can stomach this never-ending, yet ever changing study!
I nominate this factoid re Faux (Fake) News as the *comment of week* … it’s a boulder of truth dropped on the heads of whiteness’ incessant (full of themselves) worshipers!
Sharina,
Excellent (and interesting) point on separatist River Bob spending so much time here. Delusional indeed!
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Fox news should be taken off the air, even many White Americans know they’re racist. Do you remember that joke on “The Simpsons,” “Fox news, we’re not racist, we’re just unbalanced.” Jesus was definitely not White, he was brass skinned with wooly hair, says the Bible. I don’t say that to argue with White people, poc point these things out to highlight the fact that everyone is made White, even if it’s at the expense of what’s documented. Also, yes Black people can blush, we come in many shades, it just depends on the shade. I am a sandy/rosy brown tone (close to what we think of as an “Arab complexion”), and now that it’s winter, my nose and my cheeks spend most of the day bright red from the cold in the UK.
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There are a lot of ignorant remarks here. Saying that Saint-Nicolas was Turkish is about the same as saying Ferdinand Porsche was Czechian.
In those days Anatolia had not yet been ethnic cleansed by the Turks.
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But hasn’t it been said again and again by commenters, and Abagond, that St Nicholas was/ia GREEK, GREEK and GREEK? Nicholas is a Greek name.
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*is
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@ King
This article is entitled “Santa is White” and Megyn said “Santa” was white, not Saint Nicholas. Big difference.
And Jesus, like Santa, is also a fictitious character based on someone else’s life. As others have mentioned the letter “J” was not even invented, and his life “story” mimics that of several historical figures before him.
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@ resw77
The word “Saint” is a direct translation of the Latin “Santa.” Santa and Saint are the same thing. Santa Clause, according to all popular legend is, in fact Saint Nicholas—”Santa” for short. That is a little different than someone who is purely a fictional character because there was a real St. Nicholas.
Jesus of Nazareth was also a real historical person. The name “Jesus” is the Greek interpretation of the Hebrew name “Joshua.” of course, that is not how the name appeared in the original language, since the “Hebrews” were not typing using the Greek Alphabet. You can refer to the original Hebrew symbols if that makes it feel more authentic to you.
At any rate, my point is that both men have been verified to have existed historically. there have been both true and untrue things said about them. but, at the core was a real living person. that’s all I m saying. That is different than a pure fabrication.
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Folks, stop watching these loons on T.V.. In fact stop watching television unless you are in for a bout or comedy (news), or fantasy (news). That Fox sounds like it is in all actuality a satirical television station. The joke appears to be on the white racist viewers as it shows how stupid and shallow they are, based upon the high ratings. There is one interviewer who appears to be especially insane as he rants and raves at the people he is interviewing, I don’t know what his name is as I switch the channel after a few minutes of gut laughs. There are probably dozens of maniacs on the channel posing as anchor hosts. The blonde transvestite at the top appears to be one of them. As for Santa, he is a classic case of a pedophile if I ever saw one!
However, this post is about white privilege and its intendant perks such as being able to whitify fictional characters and become enraged when so called beloved fictional characters such as their beloved Santa is racialized. They would probably go insane if they their beloved Leghorn Foghorn was actually black. Such is their lunacy.
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@ King
Again, the story of “Santa Clause” is purely fictitious although based on a historical figure. It is not the same as Saint Nicholas. St. Nicholas did not live in the North Pole nor have reindeer nor elves nor enter homes through chimneys.
Jesus of Nazareth was not any person’s real name, and if you’re equating him to Yeshua ben Yosef, they are not equatable. Yeshua was not born on Christmas nor born to a virgin nor rose from the dead. Those tales are extracted from the story of the ancient Egyptian Heru (Horus).
Saying that Santa and Jesus are real people is just like saying George Costanza (from Seinfeld) was a real person. Yes, Costanza is based on a real person, but he is still a fictional character.
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OFF TOPIC: Jesus’s historical reality or race.
That deserves a post of its own. That is why I said little about it in this post.
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@In Vino Veritas
Nice of you to highlight the ignorance in your comment. Now I challenge you to a reading and comprehension test. Of the comments I read they said he is from Turkey not that he was Turkish. Do you know the difference? In fact I hear google has this search that you can use to search…well ummm…information. Try it. Then perhaps you will be willing to return and apologize for being ignorant.
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To give you an idea of how the real St Nicholas might be perceived in America:
http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/alexios-marakis/
What forensic scientists think he looked like (from the website cited by Linda):
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/real-face/
He was apparently dark-skinned.
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King, resw77:
From what I remember at school in England, the teachers taught us that the Christmas figure (not a father but a child, the Christ Child) was invented by the English 15th century Church.
The idea behind it, was to replace and suppress all the attention given over to the Greek Saint, Nicholas, and his feast day in the first week of December.
He and his special day was becoming far too popular, they thought, and posed a challenge to the star quality of the Saviour.
As time went on, St Nicholas and “Father” Christmas became conflated and seen as the same thing.
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@abagond
Seemed on topic to me since you quoted Megyn saying, “Santa just is white … Jesus is a white man too.”
But I get it.
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@ Average Bee: Comment deleted for use of racial slur and comparing people of other races to animals.
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@ resw77
Not to worry. I am not faulting you. I just do not want this thread to get swallowed up by a much bigger, more emotional topic.
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@ resw77
Well, we can discuss it when the dedicated thread is written. I get what you’re saying, but still have some objections, which I will save until then.
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“That’s why I suggested that he would like Holland’s brand of Christmas.”
Ouch, please dear Brothawolf, the Dutch keep traditionally Saint Nicholas and Christmas seperate, Piet is a character associated with Saint Nicholas, not with Christmas, Holland’s Christmas is a two day event, family, food, church, Christmas trees and absolutely no blackface, they are gone already for more than two weeks. That concept about Piet being really white, is not really true, in the same sense that Othello is not really white, even though most of the actors and writers are.
Really, in the Netherlands the 6th of december is really the end of the black face season.
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Sharina:
“they said he is from Turkey not that he was Turkish”
Talking about highlighting your ignorance. Turkey didn’t exist back then. There’s a 1600 years gap.
So according to you Ferdinand Porsche is from the Czech Republic?
And i guess you consider Fryderyk Chopin being “from Russia”?
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Sharina – seasons greetings! You seem a little more bitter today than usual, not feeling well? Hope you feel better soon.
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Vino – shame on you calling out Sharina’s ignorance, why she prides herself on her intellect, that and her ability to make up words and change the meaning of phrases – her new favorite is “pathetic” which means “i don’t agree with you” in sharina-ville.
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Sharina said
“@Riverside_Rob
You want to know what is even more funny (and pathetic)? You support separation yet spend your free time on a black blog complaining.”
I’m educating sweetheart, not complaining. You’re welcome
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@ In Vino Veritas
“Turkey didn’t exist back then. ”
No kidding, Sherlock.
I used Turkey as a geographical reference b/c St. Nicholas lived and died in the region called Turkey today. It’s the same as saying Christopher Columbus “discovered” America in 1492, while knowing that the name America didn’t exist back then.
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teddy1975,
So, I guess articles like this one from the Netherlands is all in my imagination as well as the black face part?
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/12/groenlinks_council_official_qu.php
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No, Brothawolf, that stuff happens, but it just stops on Saint Nicholas Day, weeks before christmas. The only thing you imagined is that there is a connection with Christmas, and though both events are in the same month, and feature a man with a white beard in a red and white suit, based on a certain Asian bishop, they are just not the same. The blackface time is from the saturday after Saint Martin until Saint Nicholas.
Now “Zwarte Piet” has a number of different meanings depending on context, in this context in your link the common understanding would probably be that Mandela is called the chief- [six letter word starting with an N]. Not funny at all.
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@ Kiwi, you said:
That’s for Sharina to say, but it’s not the first time that kind of targetted “attentiveness” has been shown to a woman of colour by white men on this blog.
@ In Vino Veritas
It’s far from unusual to see today’s borders projected onto Antiquity, and because another commenter didn’t use terms like
*Anatolia,
*Asia Minor, or
*Byzantium about a region which is presently known a Turkey doesn’t mean they are particularly “ignorant”.
A couple of small points:
— Sure, if you’re talking about the Republic of Turkey. But what is called “Turkification” of Anatolia started in around the 11th century with the Seljuks.
— The nationalities of Ferdinand Porsche and Fryderyk Chopin shows shifting borders and changing identities in a part of the world.
Not so unusual, really. Nationality can be fluid.
Is Nicolas Copernicus, for example, a Pole or a German?
Both Poland and Germany claim Copernicus as belonging to their nationality.
Is it “ignorance” if someone says Copernicus was German when some info says he was a Pole?
The South Asian actress Bipasha Basu was born in Delhi and says her family are Bengali, but as a nationality Bangladesh didn’t exist 100 years ago. Is someone “ignorant” to call her Indian?
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@ Bulanik: Well You tell em about it Missy. Ms. Bulanik is serving the real facts.
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@Riverside_Rob
Maybe you need to “educate” your self on the definition of educating because I am willing to bet you are not educating anyone by visiting a blog (which is directed towards blacks and non-whites) and going on and on about what you believe in but not following through with it.
(aw the joys of stupidity coupled with delusion)
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@Kiwi
Only the very stupid ones who want to convince the masses they are smarter than what they are.
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@In Vino Veritas
“Talking about highlighting your ignorance.”—That still does not highlight my ignorance but only enforces yours. This is quote of that you said up thread “There are a lot of ignorant remarks here. Saying that Saint-Nicolas was Turkish.” This is what I was responding to as I could careless of the remainder of what you said (though I see you want to deflect to it). I said to you then that people said he was from turkey not that he was Turkish. Not once in that comment did I tell you want I believe or agree but that you do a Google search and see where they got the idea.
Now shall we continue to allow me to highlight more of your ignorance?
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@Riverside_Rob
Actually I am in an amazing mood, but judging from your comment I can see you are still bitter about the fact that you thought hat tip meant what you thought it did only to find out it had more than one meanings. That is life so get over it. Several words and gestures have more than one meaning. You lost that round and losing should not be new to you by now.
Secondly I don’t need you to tell me I am intelligent as I know I am. Maybe you need mommy to cuddle you with a false sense of intelligence but you won’;t get it from me.
Lastly I call you pathetic because that simply is what you are. I know how to agree to disagree so it had nothing to do with whether you agree with me or not. I see you as a pathetic man who comes to a black blog to claim you want and agree with separation, but is constantly here begging for the attention of the blacks on the blog.
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Really it doesn’t matter what color he is. He isn’t real. If you are a parent you can be creative with that if you want. So no one can tell you he isn’t black.. but to get mad at that you will get mad at anything. The TV news really tries to divide us. Have fun this holiday and stop further dividing us with nonsense.
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@Bulanik
“That’s for Sharina to say, but it’s not the first time that kind of targetted “attentiveness” has been shown to a woman of colour by white men on this blog.”—I tend to notice it from those insecure white men who need to feel like they are telling the uneducated woman of color something.
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@ Rob Oh and here is a link to the definition of complaining. Match it with your responses and you will see for yourself how accurate I am about your dribble on this blog. Consider this a freebie as your educational laziness typically disgusts me.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/complaining
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@Sharina: “Not once in that comment did I tell you want I believe or agree but that you do a Google search and see where they got the idea.”
I’m sorry to inform you but if you limit yourself to “Google Search” i’m not surprised that you believe Saint-Nicolas is from Turkey. There are plenty of serious sources available on the internet where you can learn something about the history of the Middle East. So don’t be afraid, there’s a giant source of information waiting to be discovered.
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@ Bulanik:
“– Sure, if you’re talking about the Republic of Turkey. But what is called “Turkification” of Anatolia started in around the 11th century with the Seljuks.”
Of course. I never stated otherwise. But that doesn’t change anything. I can understand that for Americans it is sometimes difficult to understand the sensitivities of the “Old World” (pardon my French) but if you were to say somewhere in Greece that Saint-Nicolas is “from Turkey” you’d better be able to run fast.
“-Nationality can be fluid.”
Again of course, but changing a persons origin to that of their archenemy is a bit overdone, isn’t it?
“-Is Nicolas Copernicus, for example, a Pole or a German?”
Good example, i would call him a Polish German.
“-Is it “ignorance” if someone says Copernicus was German when some info says he was a Pole?”
No, of course not. Because this is something that you can discuss. But nobody in his right mind would call Saint-Nicolas “from Turkey”.
I have even better examples:
Would you dare call Ataturk Greek?
Or Aristoteles Onassis Turkish?
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abagond
To give you an idea of how the real St Nicholas might be perceived in America:
Arabs and Europeans are both Caucasian. There are plenty of Arabs and Europeans you could tell apart. But there are also plenty more who you couldn’t. So it’s not surprising a white guy with a big beard who doesn’t speak English would be confused. I’m frequently asked if I’m Arab myself.
What forensic scientists think he looked like (from the website cited by Linda):
The reconstruction on that website was based on x-rays taken of the skull believed to be St Nicholas. X-rays say nothing about skin tone. So they had no basis for choosing complexion. Not that the complexion chosen was particularly dark.
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@ In Vino
But that ^^ was not my point now, was it?
You said: “Turkey didn’t exist back then. There’s a 1600 years gap.”
True, Turkey as the REPUBLIC of Turkey did NOT exist back then.
But what I said was this ““Turkification” of Anatolia started in around the 11th century with the Seljuks”. 1600 years ago isn’t the 11th century.
You said nothing about the Seljuks, did you?
**
Well, a person can be in his, or even her, right mind, and mistakenly project contemporary borders onto Antiquity. They can even be unsure about present day borders…. I notice you skipped over answering back on example of the Indian-Bengali woman I gave you, Bipasha Basu? Aren’t you sure of where India ends and Pakistan and Bangladesh begins, or something?
Well, you wouldn’t be alone. Lol.
You have “even better” examples — Ataturk and Onassis?
An Ottoman Turk born in Greece and a Greek born in west Turkey.
Perhaps more instructive to ask was Julius Caesar an Italian?
Today’s Republic of Italy is quite different to the Roman Empire.
**
Have you noticed that when people who think they know stuff start discussing Egypt, they can’t somehow can’t bring themselves to say it is, in fact AFRICA? I have.
It’s as if they never looked at an atlas.
Maybe they are “not in their right minds”?
But should this be pointed out to them, somehow everyone is magically supposed to KNOW Egypt is in the Middle East and skip the actual geography and history part…
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@ DJ
http://shs2.westport.k12.ct.us/forensics/11-forensic_anthropology/skeletal_analysis_worksheet.htm
“There are several features that can be used to determine the race of an individual. In terms of the skull, a great place to start is the maxillary bone. “
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Da Jokah,
Arabs and Europeans are both Caucasian.
Linda says,
Caucasian describes the people who are actually from the Caucasus region…
The use of this term to mean “white” is a false and incorrectly used, applied and made fashionable by racist white Eugenicists, who wanted to create “races” in the world
and the word “Caucasian” is now mostly used by Americans who don’t know any better because your schools suck; whereas, most western white European ethnic groups know who they are and do NOT refer to themselves as “Caucasians” —
and that’s why the Russian “Slavs” beat up the REAL Caucasians on the streets of Moscow, call them “black N*** or dark” and want them out of their country because they don’t consider the REAL Caucasians as “white people”
“ Russians “despise all Caucasians,” Mr. Makhmudov says. “You have to behave in a certain way – keep your eyes down. Never contradict a Russian. If you talk back to a policeman, you’ll be beaten for sure
Human rights experts say Russia’s new racist mood often spills over into violence against the darker-skinned people from the Caucasus”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0427/p7s1.html/(page)/2
White racists of the 1800’s and early 1900’s used the term “Caucasian” to label and include certain Asians and Arabs/North Africans (in order to co-opt part of those groups historical achievements) but even they stopped short of calling them “white” people
“Not All Caucasians Are White: The Supreme Court Rejects Citizenship for Asian Indians (1923)”
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/
Ethiopians can also be considered “Caucasian”… but they MOST certainly are not white– and Neither are Arabs or Indians…so what is your point again?
oh yeah, mythical Santa “is white”— but the real St. Nicholas was not white and he would probably be on the USA’s “no fly” list
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@In Vino Veritas
It is amazing when people quote what I say and then are still to ignorant to comprehend. How exactly did you come to the conclusion I limit my self to a google search by telling you to google search it? Oh and please by all means quote where I said he was from Turkey (or Turkish as you claimed)? Since you are going to put words and thoughts in my mouth you would at least need proof right? In your words “So don’t be afraid, there’s a giant source of information waiting to be discovered.” ROFL
Moving on….I consider the remainder of your post an effort to cover-up your first ignorant post (I mean serious is it hard to apologize for a mistake or your ignorance). Though it amuses me how you still continue to become more and more ignorant as you continue. 🙂
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@Kiwi
I guess you have more perception that I do. I tend not to notice unless it is one of those moron trolls trying to be a condescending azz.
@Bulanik
Well said as always. 🙂
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@ Bulanik:
“You said nothing about the Seljuks, did you?”
No, i didn’t. I didn’t mention the Ottomans neither. Your point being?
“Well, a person can be in his, or even her, right mind, and mistakenly project contemporary borders onto Antiquity.”
True, but why on earth would you continue on denying your mistake. In my (not so humble) opinion is Sharina’s refusal to admit she mistakenly located Saint-Nicolas as “from Turkey” an invitation to call that ignorant.
“I notice you skipped over answering back on example of the Indian-Bengali woman I gave you, Bipasha Basu? Aren’t you sure of where India ends and Pakistan and Bangladesh begins, or something?”
I have no problem admitting i do not know enough of the history of the Indian peninsula to give a coherent answer to this one. I truely consider myself ignorant on this matter.
“Have you noticed that when people who think they know stuff start discussing Egypt, they can’t somehow can’t bring themselves to say it is, in fact AFRICA? I have.”
No, i haven’t. Because Egypt is in fact one of the few countries that isn’t limited to one continent. But i guess you knew that.
I really don’t see why the emphasis on Egypt being in Africa? I have been in African Egypt and Asian Egypt on several occasions and i really didn’t notice a difference in people and/or culture.
“But should this be pointed out to them, somehow everyone is magically supposed to KNOW Egypt is in the Middle East and skip the actual geography and history part…”
I don’t understand this reaction either? Egypt being (for the most) part African doesn’t contradict with it being in the Middle East?
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@ Sharina:
“Oh and please by all means quote where I said he was from Turkey (or Turkish as you claimed)?”
Quote from Sharina: “Of the comments I read they said he is from Turkey not that he was Turkish. Do you know the difference?”
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@In Vino Veritas
ROFL…@ Riverside_Rob I was going to declare you the most asinine troll on this blog but I think In Vino Veritas has beat you out.
This quote is not saying I said he was from turkey. The quote clearly I mean clearly states “Of the comments I read they( NOT ME) said he is from Turkey not that he was Turkish.” Are you able to comprehend what that quote means? Are you able to comprehend period? I know I asked if you would like to continue for me to highlight your ignorance but I stand all amazed at how well it turned out. 🙂
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@In Vino Veritas
“In my (not so humble) opinion is Sharina’s refusal to admit she mistakenly located Saint-Nicolas as “from Turkey” an invitation to call that ignorant.”—I never located Saint Nicholas from anywhere including Turkey, so why would I admit to a mistake on my part when one never happened? though I count several mistakes on your part which you so arrogantly try to side step and which I am going to so arrogantly point out (while laughing).
1. You made the careless mistake of saying and I quote “There are a lot of ignorant remarks here. Saying that Saint-Nicolas was Turkish is about the same as saying Ferdinand Porsche was Czechian” Hate to break it to you but 4 people is not a lot and of those 4 people not one said he was Turkish only that he was from Turkey (oddly enough I was not one of them though you keep trying to paint me as being).
2. The next mistake is that you are trying to say I said something I did not. Never and I repeat Never did I say he was Turkish or that he was from Turkey. Which is why I asked if you are able to comprehend or are you ready to concede to your mistake?
3. Your third mistake and outright lie is you started off calling people ignorant as to the comment above so trying to cover tracks by say “she mistakenly located Saint-Nicolas as “from Turkey” an invitation to call that ignorant” is false. Even the comment you quote and tried to claim I was saying he was from Turkey is located after the fact so nice failure on your part.
Any other mistake I missed? 🙂
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I stand corrected there were actual only three individuals who mentioned him being from Turkey.
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@ In Vino —
In wanting to label others as “ignorant” you seem a tad non-committal when your own limits are spotlighted, pretending to not know what I am talking about. That’s quite condescending.
You even ask me:
Continuing what? What mistake, where? Show me!
What I said about St Nicolas’s origins last week, 14 December was this:
When St Nicolas lived, Turkey didn’t exist — he lived more than one thousand years before the Ottoman Sultans conquered Byzantium.
Here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-white-default/#comment-205452
Further, If I am going to mention the area where he was from, I’m going to say Demre or Kale — those are the towns in present-day Turkey which can be identified. Because you will find them on the map rather than looking for the old Greek names. Similarly, if you were in the East of Turkey, and trying to locate a town called Kop in what was Armenia a century ago, you would have to look for the town of Bulanik instead — because that part of Turkey is now Turkey, not Armenia.
**
As for not you not “noticing” the quite notorious trend of not calling Egypt “Africa” — I am not surprised. Many folks travel to parts of Asia, or parts of Africa, or wherever, and sometimes only later, if at all, realize how selective and narrow what they saw and absorbed was.
Learning is always a work in progress.
Sometimes calling others ignorant when WE ARE ALL learning isn’t constructive or true.
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^Perhaps what would be more constructive, is less Vino and more Veritas.
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@ In Vino —
In wanting to label others as “ignorant” you seem a tad non-committal when your own limits are spotlighted, pretending to not know what I am talking about. That’s quite condescending, because I don’t think you are in fact obtuse.
You even ask me:
Continuing what? What mistake, where? Show me!
What I said about St Nicolas’s origins last week, 14 December was this:
“When St Nicolas lived, Turkey didn’t exist — he lived more than one thousand years before the Ottoman Sultans conquered Byzantium.”
Here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-white-default/#comment-205452
Further, If I am going to mention the area where he was from, I’m going to say Demre or Kale — those are the towns in present-day Turkey which can be identified. Because you will find them on the map rather than looking for the old Greek names. Similarly, if you were in the East of Turkey, and trying to locate a town called Kop in what was Armenia a century ago, you would have to look for the town of Bulanik instead — because that part of Turkey is now Turkey, not Armenia.
**
As for not you not “noticing” the quite notorious trend of not calling Egypt “Africa” — I am not surprised.
Many folks travel to parts of Asia, or parts of Africa, or wherever, and sometimes only later, if at all, realize how selective and narrow what they saw and absorbed was.
Learning is always a work in progress.
Sometimes calling others ignorant when WE ARE ALL learning isn’t constructive or true.
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^^Perhaps what would be more constructive, is less Vino and more Veritas
Snap! The same thought was lurking in my head too as I read In Vino’s last comments…
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@ Bulanik:
“why on earth would you continue on denying your mistake.”
Indeed i wasn’t clear enough. I wasn’t referring to you but rather to Sharina.
“Further, If I am going to mention the area where he was from, I’m going to say Demre or Kale”
Actually, he was from Patara.
“As for not you not “noticing” the quite notorious trend of not calling Egypt “Africa””
I was not bullsh**ing you. I have never spoken to anyone about Egypte to find out that this person didn’t know where Egypt was located. Maybe i move in the wrong circles.
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@Sharina:
“This quote is not saying I said he was from turkey.”
No, indeed it was not. But you were clearly defending the idea that he was “from Turkey”.
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@ King:
“Perhaps what would be more constructive, is less Vino and more Veritas”
Good one 😉
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In Vino, could you give provide a link showing us Patara on a modern-day map?
Thanks.
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^^ You know, ones that locals might use..
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@In Vino Veritas
“No, indeed it was not. But you were clearly defending the idea that he was “from Turkey”.”—Perhaps in your mind that is what you want to believe as at this point I believe you are attempting to save face. My quote actually was telling you what people said compared to what you claimed they said. This does not take rocket science to figure yet my how this goes over your head.
I asked you to provide where I said he was from Turkey or Turkish. You quickly jumped on a quote that YOU though provided such evidence. I highly doubt you jumped on that quote for the purpose…as you stated…” you were clearly defending the idea that he was “from Turkey.” Even if it was in defense of it (which unfortunately for you it is not) that still does not show me saying he is from Turkey or Turkish. So once again you are allowing your arrogance to highlight your ignorance. 🙂
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Oh and one more thing @In Vino Veritas I would like to highlight as I see you are going down the same path as most intellectually dishonest individuals.
You might want to spend less time trying to convince your self what I said or what I meant by something and spend more time reading what I said as to avoid further embarrassment on your part. 🙂
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@Bulanik
“Learning is always a work in progress.
Sometimes calling others ignorant when WE ARE ALL learning isn’t constructive or true.”—-Agreed
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Teddy1975
No, Brothawolf, that stuff happens, but it just stops on Saint Nicholas Day, weeks before christmas. The only thing you imagined is that there is a connection with Christmas, and though both events are in the same month, and feature a man with a white beard in a red and white suit, based on a certain Asian bishop, they are just not the same. The blackface time is from the saturday after Saint Martin until Saint Nicholas.
Now “Zwarte Piet” has a number of different meanings depending on context, in this context in your link the common understanding would probably be that Mandela is called the chief- [six letter word starting with an N]. Not funny at all.
A lot of what I’ve seen through numerous news articles link the figure with Christmas. One of them is from the Netherlands. I don’t normally take what the news says at face value. There are some exceptions. Just saying.
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@ Bulanik:
“could you give provide a link showing us Patara on a modern-day map?”
Well, actually there are a few but that’s beside the point. Patara and surroundings have long been ethnic cleansed.
In your logic we can start insulting the Aztecs by saying that their capital was Ciudad Mexico rather than Tenochtitlán?
Maybe now you’ll understand how insulting that logic is?
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v8driver
I didn’t say craniometry couldn’t be used to determine race. I said it couldn’t be used to determine complexion. And while there’s a strong correlation between the two there was no indication there was anything specific about his craniometry which led to their choice of complexion.
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ah dude i dont want to go back to that 1911 bs
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Yes Brotherwolf, that connection is often made, and the Dutch version of Saint Nicholas is without reasonable doubt the namesake of Santa Claus, and Santa rather justifies the connection itself in other ways too. Using concepts Uncle Sam’s family knows from Christmas, really helps to explain it to people more familiar with that cultural background. To summarize “It’s nothing like Christmas at all, but it is a lot like the way Christmas is celebrated in the States, except for the Christmas bits and it is not celebrated when it’s Christmas”. Forgetting that the equation with Christmas is just to explain it to people more familiar with US than NL culture, can lead to one asking people to be more culturally sensitive in the most culturally insensitive way possible, and that doesn’t work.
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@Bulanik
—–The real Lone Ranger was a black man but I’ve only ever seen him as a white man. Where’s the balance there?——-
LOL The Lone Ranger was never a black man lol
Here is another example of the lunacy of Afrocentrism folks..You notice nobody on this blog even questioned the ignorance of this Bulanik person…smh
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@ Christopher
I think ignorant comes in the form of YOU. So quick to say others are liars, but not quick to provide proof.
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I will however provide said proof when I return home.
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That is because we all knew that she was referring to the historical deputy Bass Reeves, not the radio or television series, and you of course did not… smh.
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@Afrocentric lunatics
Being a Marshall does not make you an inspiration for the Lone Ranger lol
That is why you afrocentric people are a joke.
The Lone Ranger will always be a white man and that goes for Santa Claus too!
Jesus would most likely look like Jeff Goldblum if I were to take a guess and if he actually existed.
Stick to trying to steal historical peoples histories and cultures ok, my Afrocentric peons.
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@Christopher Columbus (aka stupid)
Here is that proof I promised you.
http://politicalblindspot.com/the-real-lone-ranger-was-an-african-american-lawman-who-lived-with-native-american-indians/
Maybe you should stick to what you do best…being an undereducated twat.
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Oh and another thing. ROLF the moron still believes in Santa Claus!!! LMAO and he fashion Jesus to an actor. Thank the American Educational system ladies and gentlemen.
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^He certainly seems desperate for the Lone Ranger to remain White, even though he believes him to be a completely fictional character… fascinating.
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*Ignoring Christopher Columbus for the sake of preserving sanity. Sits back and watches him meltdown.*
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@Christopher Columbus:
Is that you again Asplund?
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Christopher Columbus is October.
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@ Afrocentric gullibles
Some liberal jew attempts to put shotty information together to try to paint the Lone Ranger as black and all the Anti-White crowd just eats it up lol That is not proof, my lost Afrocentric friends…that is conjecture.
Bottom Line
He is WHITE..Get over it
Next!
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Notice how the dummy can come up with no proofs of his own? Just some sorry tail about how the horrible Jew must be behind all of this (of course)
No, such person as Marshal Bass Reeves ever existed… no matter that he’s in museums of the West, Encyclopedias, and archived news articles [multiple sources]. And if he did exist, then a Black lawman who’s posse man was a Native American, who was historically known to ride a white horse, who was a master of disguises, and who passed out silver coins as a trademark, could never be the inspiration!!
Why? Well because it’s “Afrocentric!”
Hahahahahaha!
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@King
Glad I caught your comment because I was going to say something similar. 🙂
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@Christopher Columbus
It seems you are the one desperate for him to be white. Maybe you should get over it because as much as you whine he won’t turn white. ROFL
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He is WHITE..Get over it
Next!
Do fries go with that shake? Next!
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Oh and Columbus congrats of finding a big word to further the charade of you being smart. LOL
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*on
@mary burrell
I am beginning to wonder if all these trolls are not one in the same. Abagond wrote on one thread when some of these individuals first started commenting and I am beginning to wonder about it myself.
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@ Afrocentric gullibles
Some liberal jew attempts to put shotty information together to try to paint the Lone Ranger as black and all the Anti-White crowd just eats it up lol That is not proof, my lost Afrocentric friends…that is conjecture.
Bottom Line
He is WHITE..Get over it
_ _ _
“Shotty” (shoddy?) information and “conjecture”! Oh, the irony.
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@herneith the ‘americanism’ is “do you want fries with that?”
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You see how the Afrocentric lunatic crowd just uses Grammar Nazi tactics to attempt to debunk the truth…smh Pathetic these people are.
Here is the truth kemosabes
Legend of the Lone Star Ranger written by Zane Grey and based on the real Texas Ranger Captain John R. Hughes was the inspiration for original radio show of the Lone Ranger and then the TV series and movies.
Period!!! End of story.
You Afrocentric swines and Liberal Anti-Whites will not be allowed to steal history in my presence.
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@ Christopher Columbus
The grammar crack came after you were already debunked, so you can move on cry baby.
Secondly Zane Grey wrote Lone star Ranger, but have yet to find a book written by said individual title legend of the long star ranger and he wrote fiction.
Thirdly we were discussing the Lone ranger remember….not Texas ranger
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*correction Legend of the Lone star ranger
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“You Afrocentric swines and Liberal Anti-Whites will not be allowed to steal history in my presence.”—-I think you would have to know history in order to know if it was being stolen or not and thus far we have established that you can barely determine the day let alone history.
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Yes, but that is the inspiration for the LONE RANGER! A Zorro/Robin Hood Character that Fran Striker wrote off George Trendle’s initial idea.
It has nothing to do with DEPUTY Marshall Reeves.
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@Christopher Columbus
Upthread you tried to claim it was some factual event that proves that “Captain John R. Hughes” was the lone ranger. The book you are referring to is a fictional piece. Do you know what fictional is? It means the story is made up, but mimic after one man who is not the lone ranger but the lone star ranger who was part of the Texas rangers during 1887 to 1915. Not once did it mention that he was the Lone ranger or did it mention any of the other mess you claimed above.
” A Zorro/Robin Hood Character that Fran Striker wrote off George Trendle’s initial idea.”—Great but we are not talking about Zorro or Robin Hood now are we so what good do they serve to prove your point?
“It has nothing to do with DEPUTY Marshall Reeves.”—Sorry but Captain John R. Hughes has nothing to do with “the real lone ranger.” You either got confused or got caught in stupid
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@Christopher Columbus
I am never civil with the willfully stupid individuals such as yourself. Obviously you know close to nothing about history considering I am taking the time to school you on it and provide links. Speaking of links care to provide any to the so called “facts” and “information” you are presenting>
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@Sharina
You must be dumbest person on the planet or just a rabid Afrocentric.
Look it up yourself unless you are too stupid to do so.
I know I am right and you are wrong….Move on to the next Afrocentric “Fact” I can debunk please, thank you
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@ Christopher Columbus
Only stupid people come into a forum, make assertions, and then fail to produce the documentation for said assertions, especially when asked.
Are you really this stupid?
Or are you attempting to be entertaining?
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The Lone Ranger was based on a book titled The Lone Star Ranger written by Zane Grey in 1915. The book takes place in Texas which is known as the Lone Star State. The book was dedicated to Texas Ranger Captain John R. Hughes who was a member of the Texas Rangers, “D Company”, “Frontier Battalion”, assigned to protect a silver mine located in Shafter, Texas. Hughes is most famous for leading a company of Rangers in a hunt for the gang who killed another Ranger, Captain Frank Jones, in an ambush. Also notable, he left home at 14 and made his way to Indian Territory where lived among the Choctaw and Osage Indians for about four years and then lived with the Comanche in the Fort Sill area.
http://www.texasranger.org/halloffame/Hughes_John.htm
The Lone Star Ranger was adapted three times to film under the same title as the novel in 1919, 1929 and 1930 before being adapted as the Lone Ranger radio series in 1933. The adaptations incorporate elements invented by Zane Grey for his novel the The Lone Star Ranger as well as additional events surrounding the real life of John Hughes. Yet every Lone Ranger adaptation, involves a Texas Ranger pursuing a gang of outlaws who ambushed and murdered a posse of Texas Rangers. The fact that the film and radio adaptations more closely resemble the actual events than the book dedicated to Hughes shows the writers went back to the original John Hughes for inspiration. Hughes, who didn’t die until 1947, even said he was the inspiration for the Lone Ranger character.
At no time is the Lone Ranger depicted as anything other than a Texas Ranger. The Texas Rangers didn’t get their first black ranger until 1988 — 95 years after the events which inspired <i<The Lone Ranger. As far as I know, the first known mention of Reeves as a possible inspiration for the Lone Ranger was a children’s book from 2009 — nearly 120 years after the events.
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Da Jokah
I think you misunderstand the argument being made. I don’t believe that anyone is saying that “the official” story of the origins of the Lone Ranger have always pointed to a Black man. Neither are we saying that the story was depicting the adventures of a Black Texas Ranger.
You have to consider the times in which the book, radio show, and finally the movies and television series were written. In that era, if it WAS a story about a Black hero that would have spelled the kiss of death for the brand. The same thing was going on in music at the time.
Robert Walser “The rock and roll era” p 358
So, reselling Black entertainment with White faces was nothing novel. If the story was even partially based on a Black man, it is not the sort of thing that could have been admitted to. White people simply didn’t want any reason to have to look up to Blacks. So no, we all expect that story is that the inspiration was from a White Texas Ranger.
However, we just think it curious that Bass Reeves’ life matches the Lone Ranger story line even more closely than John Hughes does.
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I feel Christopher Columbus’ ban coming soon 🙂
Anyway, I find it telling when white folks whitewash everything and, in most cases, everyone, and not expect any repercussions. Yet, when color is in the picture, there’s an outrage, minor or major. Remember, the anger with Ultimate Spider-Man?
I continue to fail to see what’s so great about white skin to rewrite history and reality to purify and empower white skin and only white skin above everyone and everything else, even common sense. Right, Christopher Columbus?
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@Christopher Columbus
This must be the part of the debate where you go on relentlessly about your failures and shortcomings.
Actually I looked up all of the information including yours in which you failed to provided. You falsified the title of the book to try to make it more authentic, but the book is a fictional piece.
“I know I am right and you are wrong….Move on to the next Afrocentric “Fact” I can debunk please, thank you”—Sure that explains why you are repeating childish rhyme. You never debunked anything and you failed like the under educated twat you proved to be. 🙂
*Side note I have more to say when I have more time
@ Da Jokah I have a response for you as well later. 🙂
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@Da Jokah Great Comment, sir! I should’ve been more sensitive to the Afrocentric mind of Sharina. When I destroy the Afrocentric claims of Egyptians, Jews, Moors, ect. being black they all exhibit the same ignorant attitude oh Sharina and her Afrocentric cohorts on this racist blog display…
They don’t like the truth nor do they like being sub-Saharan African descendants. They should embrace their history with open arms but yet they try to steal other peoples histories and accomplishments… It’s very pathetic if you ask me.
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@Brothawolf – I don’t like hearing the truth! Its not healthy for my victimhood and entitlement mentality…….LETS BAN HIM!
smh
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@Sharina
You lost the argument just like every Afrocentric does against the truth……move on and keep your bogus beliefs to yourself and you’ll face less scrutiny.
Just a friendly tip 🙂
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@christopher columbus the egyptians were black. Look at the real face of the sphinx- a negro and than look at the way european artist drew the sphinx in their artwork. They embarrasingly gave the sphinx an european face ha ha. Check it out on wikipedia yourself. Dont be bitter cause the world sees white lies now with the internet.
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@ Christopher
You seem desperate to convince yourself you won ( even after evidence you lost). Delusions of the twat.
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And when I am home I further engage in highlighting how foolish you are. @ columbus
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@Phillyrider
No they were not. The Coptic Christians are the sole descendants of the Ancient Egyptians…Whom were of the berber race if not a race of their own but that is debatable.
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Maybe some of us knew about Bass Reeves, but white commenter Rick Buddhuu brought this to our attention on the open thread. Mr. Buddhuu is not an afrocentric. I appreciated him bring this information to us.
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@ christopher columbus please explain the sphinx being negro and why ramses the third dna proved he is sub saharan african…as put out there by egyptologist. Please explain y the sphinx is obviously a negro and the europeans made him look white in their renditions????
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@ Da jokah
King basically said what I was going to say (except mine would have been more catty). Thus I will save a repeat. Though I will respond to this.
“At no time is the Lone Ranger depicted as anything other than a Texas Ranger.”—Considering that the piece is fictional that does not make much for a solid argument on what the he was or was not. Though I don’t disagree that the book was about Caption Hugh.
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@Christopher Columbus
I wanted to take the time to point out how you lost this debate and when you lost it so as to help you move on from your delusions (though I think it would take a lot for that to happen).
For starters you never debunked anything, because you were never able to provide proof (riding the coat tail of Da jokah is not considered debunking). Of the proof that you did provide it turns out to be listed in the fiction category (I must again ask if you know what fiction is?) Using that as proof is like me using “The Indian in The Cupboard” as proof of how Native Americans live.
Secondly trying to claim I am Afrocentric in effort to discredit what I am saying is not a win or sure win for you as I don’t believe everything is black nor do I believe everything is white. I also don’t believe calling someone Afrocentric is a form of debunking. That is all you have managed to do throughout this whole thing and nothing more.
and Finally you missed the whole point of a debate that you started up. It is not about what a fictional books says and some movie says it is about who the man behind the mask is. You relied so much on that book being your proof that you slept through the whole process of you losing this debate. Even the individual you tried to brown nose said that the movie/radio was more accurate than the darn book. More importantly is that because the book is fictional it is plausible that the person who wrote the book took story information and ideas from the life of another he saw more exciting or from his mind in order to sell the darn books. So while Captain Hugh was his main man, it does not mean the man behind all the hoopla was not black or in this case Reeves.Now were your under-educated Twat status proudly. You earned it. 🙂
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*Wear
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@da jokah and @chris columbus
Why is the european renditions of the true negro sphinx of giza different? Check out the embarrasing white renditions in the wikipedia gallery in which they made the sphinx of giza white when he was obviously negro…pathetic lol. Even republicans are acknowledging this lol. Will one of u two answer me???
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corrections on post Captain Hughes
@phillyrider
You might get a reasonable response from Da Jokah (based solely on what you consider reasonable), but as for chris columbus….nothing more than childish banter similar to “I know you are but what am I.”
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Notice how whites are questioning the existence of Jesus now?
Theyre serious about it too. Everyone knows he existed and wasn’t white (and wouldnt want to be, either). Theyre just mad because that fictional hippie-looking, pale, pink, salmon colored one is as fraudulent as America’s money.
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And one more thing. @ Christopher Columbus
“It’s very pathetic if you ask me”—Well what I find most pathetic is your desperate attempt to try and convince yourself and others that you “destroyed” some type of debate with me or anyone else by simply calling everyone that disagreed with you Afrocentric (by your own logic you are racist and pathetic among other things). Even more amusing is how you claim we don’t like the truth yet when presented with truth you quickly resorted to the most hilarious childish banter I have ever come across on this blog to date (had to really question if you are even an adult).
“They should embrace their history with open arms but yet they try to steal other peoples histories and accomplishments.”—Yet you have not problem stealing a persons history and accomplishments simply because you share their skin color or in some cases when you don’t. How is that logic working out for you?
Nice try twat.
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Also @phillyrider
I strongly suggest you research anything Chris Columbus says to you and provide links. He tells half truths and only pulls from it what supports his own views. He meantion the copt’s upthread but what he failed to mention was this that I found on Wikipedia (not the best source but a starting point)
“In the 20th century, some Egyptian nationalists and intellectuals in the context of Pharaonism began using the term qubṭ in the historical sense. For example, Markos Pasha Semeika, founder of the Coptic Museum, addressed a group of Egyptian students saying: “All of you are Copts. Some of you are Muslim Copts, others are Christian Copts, but all of you are descended from the Ancient Egyptians.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copt
This does not mean only Copt’s are Egyptian descendants.
As I understand it Egyptians were a mixed people and could not be categorized on the standards of race today. They did have what some would categorize as negroid features. Only Morons such as the individual who said this would like to push the “they are white theory” but it is also hard to push the “they are black” theory too simply because it is hard to put race to them by ignorant standards.
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excuse my errors in grammar and typos
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One more thing (sorry for the abundance of post from me) I would avoid talking the race of Egyptian’s as it would take the post off topic.
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Christopher Columbus,
If your sole purpose was to derail yet another topic, you’ve succeeded. However, I am not that emotionally unstable to shift conversations in my favor just to spout your white supremacist babble and hatred for anything Afro-centric.
In case you don’t realize, the topic is about the ridiculous notions about the color of Santa Claus. One person wrote how Santa shouldn’t be only white. Whiteness is seen as the ‘default’ in this nation. Whiteness has its many privileges, sir.
When color is introduced in the mainstream, white people – YOUR PEOPLE – have a problem with it, especially if it doesn’t conform to YOUR stereotypes, images which make you feel good and better than us. Talk about a superiority complex.
We see a problem with that. We, who are human beings. Full humans as opposed to what your constitution said about us being 3/5th human to preserve white power.
But of course, your narrow-mind can not fathom that. You come in here and blast us for our opinions and thoughts. You put us down. Dish your racist comments. And you expect us to sit here and say “Yes, boss. You are right” and smile?
GTFOH. We have our own thoughts, our own truths. You just continue to live in your comfort zone of white supremacy and declare that as the truth, at least that’s what you keep telling yourself over and over again.
Stick to worshiping your idols like David Duke. We’ll go back to this Santa issue.
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Christopher Columbus derailed the thread and some of us got caught up in his foolishness, the topic is supposed to be about Megyn Kelly and her foolishiness about Santa. I think we need to not get suckered in by the trolls. I am surprised Abagond did come in and delete for being off topic.
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*I am surprised Abagond didn’t come in and delete off topic comments*
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@mary burrell
I agree that he derailed the thread and some of us go caught in it, but I also agree with the idea that we should not let foolishness go unchallenged. Of course in the case of Christopher Columbus with any proof he still believed as he chose but that is to be expected and I did not expect anything else. Nor did I expect anything less of his meltdown on this thread once exposed to the truth.
What was really most telling about his comments and what I believe went along with this thread is how white individuals such as him along with Megyn fashion things to be white when they are not. How they take to heart fictional things to be white. Santa Claus is white though he is fictional and the person he was modeled after is not white by American race standards. The lone ranger is white though he is a fictional book character and an Illinois research found that bass reeves life seems to more match the lifestyle than that of Captain Hughes.
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There was some “topic creep” but it seems to me to be both acceptable and logically predictable.
We were talking about the purported Whiteness of Jesus Christ and Santa Clause, and then the subject of the Whiteness of another prominent literary figure (The Lone Ranger) emerged. The discussion about the true ethnic origins of the Lone Ranger story was germane by way of example, as to how literary/historical figures are often supposed to be White, even when there is some evidence to the contrary. I don’t know that this was truly “off topic.”
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@ the Afrocentric Lemmings
It is not me who is obsessed with skin color of people…..its YOU. This post is all about your obsession with skin color and how anything that white is bad and anything black is good. This blog reeks of race hustlers and Afrocentrics.
Here are the facts concerning these fictional characters
Santa=White
The Lone Ranger=White
St.Nicholas=White
Here are facts concerning historical peoples
Ancient Egyptians= Egyptians(not a black phenotype but a Caucasian phenotype)
Nubians = Black Phenotype
Deputy Marshall Reeves=Black
Now lets stop the derailment of this thread. 🙂
Next!
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Here are some links for you to ponder over 🙂
Jesus is depicted here by true Coptic Christians. (Let me guess they’re under white supremacy and are forced to believe in a white looking Jesus) smh
Here are true Coptic Egyptians the descendants of the Pharaohs
Any questions? I thought not
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@ Sharinia: I agree with everything you are saying.
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@ Christopher Columbus
“It is not me who is obsessed with skin color of people…..its YOU”—I could not tell consider all your post have consisted of “he is white get over it.” If you were not then this would not be your….oh I lost count..post declaring the whiteness of said individuals. 🙂
“This post is all about your obsession with skin color and how anything that white is bad and anything black is good.”—Yet no one said any of this so I take it you are projecting though most if not all of your posts were anyway.
“Here are the facts concerning these fictional characters
Santa=White
The Lone Ranger=White
St.Nicholas=White”
Well that is simply your opinion though I doubt you can depict the difference between the two. Here are a few facts though
Santa= fictional character that can be any color
The Lone Ranger=fictional character that can be any color (though evidence suggests he is not white only that the man in the book is white and is Captain Hughes).
St. Nicholas=Not white by your American standards of race (he is brown).
“Here are facts concerning historical peoples
Ancient Egyptians= Egyptians(not a black phenotype but a Caucasian phenotype)
Nubians = Black Phenotype
Deputy Marshall Reeves=Black”
Actual Facts:
Egyptians—“Kemp states that the “black/white argument is understandable as a symptom of modern political expression … The over-simplified choice that it offers, however, does not lead to an appropriate evaluation of such evidence and understanding as we have.”[17] The 2001 Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt states that “Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study.”
“Recent DNA studies of Ancient Egyptian mummies of a New Kingdom dynasty have confirmed Sub-Saharan African origins for notable New Kingdom pharoahs from both the Rameses III (from 1186 B.C.) and Amarna (from 1353 B.C.) lineages: In December 2012, Zahi Hawass, the former Egyptian Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs and his research team released DNA studies of Rameses III (who historically is assumed to have usurped the throne and as such may not represent earlier lineages) and his son have found he carried the Sub-Saharan African Haplogroup E1b1a, and as a result clustered most closely with Africans from the African Great Lakes (335.1), Southern Africa (266.0) and Tropical West Africa (241.7) and not Europeans (1.4), Middle Easterners (14.3) or peoples from the Horn “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy
As I said only morons believe and put a race to it.
“Deputy Marshall Reeves=Black”—No one said he was not black.
“Now lets stop the derailment of this thread.”—Oh but after you. I sure getting your azz handed to you each post can be quite painful. 🙂
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@Christopher Columbus
(puts on stupidity shield)
Showing a picture of brown people of today does not prove the point of what Egyptians were back then. Though you still did not prove them as white but brown people and further proved my point of them being a mixed people.
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I wonder if you people would be upset to find out that Mohammad was also white? Which he is lol
Ok lets stop this 🙂 I could go on all day debunking the ignorant Afrocentrics but that is for another time.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all on Abagonds Blog.
🙂
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@mary burrell
Thanks and I personally have no problem debating these trolls on the behalf of those that don’t want to be involved. I have learned a lot from you and others on here so I would not take credit for any of it on my own.
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@Sharina
I will leave you with this video to entice your senses and put you at ease for the remainder of the night 🙂
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH56gwOLlz4)
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“Ok lets stop this 🙂 I could go on all day debunking the ignorant Afrocentrics but that is for another time.”—-This comment is why I say stupid people should keep quiet. By your logic alone then every one in here has debunked you by simply saying that is not true. Thank you Mr. Ignorant for conceding to your lose. 🙂
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Merry Christmas, Asplund! 🙂
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Abagond’s blog attracts some of the most retarded trolls alive. smh
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@Christopher Columbus
The mere fact that I get to watch you not only display your stupidity is more than enough to not only put me at ease but bring about a sense of joy knowing that I was not raised to be a guilable under-educated twat. 🙂
Now you enjoy your white washed Christmas. .
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correction gullible
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@ Sharina
All of my current trolls are stuck on stupid. Even Da Jokah lives up/down to his name, lacking the emotional maturity to carry on a serious discussion.
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*The mere fact that I get to watch you not only display your stupidity but carry out the false sense of belief in opinions and fictional information as if it is fact…..
(shortened my sentence).
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The whiteness of the Lone Ranger is on topic since he is a case like Santa Claus – fictional but inspired by a real person. Some would argue Jesus is like that too, but that would swallow up the thread since it gets into people’s religion, so I am not allowing it here.
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@abagond
I have to wonder if any of them are adults. Da Jokah at some sparingly point will atleast try to act like an adult, but the others are childish from start to finish.
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@abagond
Are you going to or have you already done a thread on the whiteness of Jesus?
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OFF TOPIC – the race of Ancient Egyptians.
It is not like the Santa Claus case and, besides, it already has a thread:
As does Cleopatra:
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@ Sharina
I am working on “Was Jesus white?” Hopefully it will be up this week.
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@ Sharina
I also hope to do a White Jesus post. That would not be about whether the Jesus of history was white but how Jesus has been used to support white racism – what I regard as Fake White Christianity.
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@ Christopher Columbus: Comment deleted for being off topic.
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Christopher Columbus is one of the most extreme cases of obsession over white greatness I’ve ever seen. Every great thing about this world, past and present is done by whites and no one else.
I supposed he’s going to go off and tell us that the tooth fairy is white also. He may even be crazy enough to declare that all black inventors were actually white. SMH.
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@brothawolf
I think their argument now is “blacks never invented those things they just took credit for it.” Delusional bunch.
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@ Da Jokah: Comment deleted for being off topic.
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Sharina,
There was a woman on Youtube who believed in the same thing, that whites invented everything, and blacks did nothing. People responded to her video, and she got upset calling them “black haters”.
As a side note, fantasy myths and fictional characters in the West that are famous involve characters portrayed as whites, or primarily created by whites. In my opinion, anytime a white person goes crazy when we ask for a black version of a fantasy character, it’s just them being spoiled. They want everything to be white, or else they won’t be “happy”. And some will say that it’s proof that whites are being oppressed, victims of reverse racism.
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@Brothawolf
“Christopher Columbus is one of the most extreme cases of obsession over white greatness I’ve ever seen. ”
LOL, but I disagree. Hollywood is just so powerful that people like “Christopher COlumbus” actually believe they know the race of fictional characters like Santa, the Lone Ranger, etc. and ancient civilisations like the “Ancient Egyptians.”
What’s funnier is that he speaks with authority as if he’s actually seen them in person rather than rely on evidence or the lack there of. Portrayals in movies and on TV are what matters in his mind, and that’s it.
But that’s the power of Hollywood and that’s precisely what TV was created to do.
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Brothawolf:
Restated: “People are “spoiled” to object to a tradition or myth being changed to another race, ethnicity, or gender.”
On this site I have observed numerous complaints of “whitewashing” when non-white symbols or characters have been re-cast as white.
Are these people also “spoiled”?
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True, Btother wolf, but black people complaining about the black characters there are, rather than reclaiming them, take “Uncle Tom” for an example is not helping much. I mean which fictional black character do you like? And another question, which ones are more or less justified white?
Suppose, you are hired to help with a new version of The Avengers, it is set in 1963 or so.
Members:
Ant-Man, US scientist, wife hitter
Wasp, US socialite girl friend of scientist, fashion conscious, New Netherland family.
Thor, US medical doctor, slightly lame, needs stick for walking, but likes going for long walks in wild mountaineous regions, which may have caused the need for the stick in the first place, found magical weapon, which gives him the powers of the mighty thundergod, and let him speak rather queer English.
Iron Man,US rich genius inventor, alcoholic, playboy,has issues with some Chinese folks.
Hulk, US nuclear scientist, suffers from multiple personalities disorder, his nicest personality has the lack of responsibility of a child and is easily angered and going into smashing, the second nicest is a maker of nukes and exploding them on peaceful animals in Nevada, and those are the NICEST ones…
Captain America, WW II-supersoldier and propaganda icon, a soldier and a gentleman out of time.
One and only one of the six, has to be be black, and the story will change as a result of who gets normal pigmentation. I would make Thor the black one… Just thinking.
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@ Da Jokah
“Some of the people here are itching to turn any disagreement into a street fight. Then the rest pile on like jackals. That’s what people do when they lack evidence. Don’t allow yourself to be sucked into that. Stick to the facts..”—It is interesting how in your attempt to try and slam people in here you managed to do nothing more than describe to a T the rambling of Christopher Columbus.
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@ Da Jokah
“It doesn’t. Reeves wasn’t a Ranger, he wasn’t from Texas, he never guarded a silver mine and as far as I know there’s no prominent story of him tracking down a band of outlaws for killing a lawman. Going undercover to investigate crimes or using Native American trackers is hardly unusual in Indian Territory. Nor is it unusual that he would hand out coins to ingratiate himself to locals. If he had handed out something unusual then it might have been significant.”—–Considering the story is fiction he did not have to actually be a ranger and he did not have to guard silver mine and he did not have to track down a band of outlaws for killing a lawman. Most of the back drop could be made up.
Reeves was born in Paris, Texas 1938 so you are wrong in that he was not from Texas. His wife was from Texas. So that is an inconsistency in your information. Here is one source and if you look at my comment to Columbus you will find the other.
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/we-bassreeves.html
And you are free to try to play off your superior status to Columbus, but the jokes on you. 🙂
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@Randy
I tend to look at complaining and going crazy as two different things. It is one things for a person to simply complain as they are free to like and dislike as they please, but when they start going to far as making news and youtube videos or even rolling around on floor yelling about what the color of fictional characters are then I see that as too far.
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@resw77
And that is the major problem with people today. They believe any and everything the TV tells them with a passion. They don’t research anything and fall on the default of well he said or well this said etc.
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@Brothawolf
Your remember the garden party episode of the boondocks? When Granddad told Huey that he can’t tell white people the truth? That was all I could think of when Christopher commented on the blog in child like fashion…”he is not white get over it.” It was more of his display to convince himself rather than convince us. To remind himself that we are lying to him as to not break his delicate psyche.
The thing is though not to be fooled into believing that all of them display this type of mannerism. There are those that will also calmly address these things but are mentally screaming. When it is fictional I am personally fine with people believing what they want, but when it is a real person I don’t believe in giving them such luxury.
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@Brothawolf and Average Bee
I find it or more a matter of being told something is one thing and for some it simply breaks their reality to find out it is not. For people like me who frankly never believed in Santa (and was exposed to different races of them as a child) it was on no consequence to find out the guy that he was modeled after was brown and not some lily white guy. Though you have to realize that when people are basically brainwashed and forced feed one form of reality, then it is simply very plausible for them to snap and in different and varying forms or degrees.
What I find troubling is how when asked for any type of proof that many will basically use fictional works or sources of information as their form of proof. They simply can not or just refuse to separate reality from the fiction, but in this day and age that simply is not as surprising as one might think. As resw77 pointed out and has been greatly pointed out on this blog, American society relies too heavily on TV to enlighten them on reality or someone to tell them. There is simply no research or no fact checking just simply give me the answer or have it provided to me. I was stunned when a friend of mine who teaches 7th grade said that her students could not tell time unless it was on a digital clock. Not a far stretch from me over hearing a group of teens announce they would watch the movie rather than read the book the teacher asked them to. There is simply too much dependency on TV and this dependency is why kids can’t tell the difference between real and reel.
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@ Sharina
“They believe any and everything the TV tells them with a passion. ”
Yes, TV is the very best indoctrination tool, but you really can’t fault such people for falling into that trap.
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@resw77
“Yes, TV is the very best indoctrination tool, but you really can’t fault such people for falling into that trap.”—But at what point is them falling into this trap of their own accord? As a child I can say they are not at fault, but what of the adults who fall into such fantasies?
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Randy,
Restated: “People are “spoiled” to object to a tradition or myth being changed to another race, ethnicity, or gender.”
On this site I have observed numerous complaints of “whitewashing” when non-white symbols or characters have been re-cast as white.
Are these people also “spoiled”?
In one word, yes.
resw77,
LOL, but I disagree. Hollywood is just so powerful that people like “Christopher COlumbus” actually believe they know the race of fictional characters like Santa, the Lone Ranger, etc. and ancient civilisations like the “Ancient Egyptians.”
What’s funnier is that he speaks with authority as if he’s actually seen them in person rather than rely on evidence or the lack there of. Portrayals in movies and on TV are what matters in his mind, and that’s it.
But that’s the power of Hollywood and that’s precisely what TV was created to do.
Again, Columbus is one of the most extreme cases that I’VE seen. And I call him extreme because he named himself after one of the most destructive figures in human history kind of an homage to the real person.
But you’re right, people, ESPECIALLY whites, take in what movies and TV tell them about the world because most of it is produced and directed by white people themselves. They keep recycling the same single stories over and over thinking that’s what (white) people want to see.
Teddy1975,
True, Btother wolf, but black people complaining about the black characters there are, rather than reclaiming them, take “Uncle Tom” for an example is not helping much. I mean which fictional black character do you like? And another question, which ones are more or less justified white?
I can’t think of more than ten characters. White people have a much longer list.
Sharina,
Your remember the garden party episode of the boondocks? When Granddad told Huey that he can’t tell white people the truth? That was all I could think of when Christopher commented on the blog in child like fashion…”he is not white get over it.” It was more of his display to convince himself rather than convince us. To remind himself that we are lying to him as to not break his delicate psyche.
In my opinion, he psyche started cracking when he resorted to insult us “Afro-centrics”. And to me, it’s amusing watching him crumble into insanity.
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Whew! Lot of ink out of Sharina here, your fingers must be callused with all that education and elucidation pouring out. I never fail to get a rise out of you –
As for fictional characters like Santa, and the Lone Ranger, and Johnny Appleseed, and Paul Bunyan – you (Sharina) miss the point when you say they can be any race -they can’t, they are defined by the culture that created them. That is not to say other races can’t have similar legends and heroes, just that they can’t be the same person. You and Christopher Columbus have been arguing past each other for a couple of days here.
And here is your quote, because you always want me to show you where you said something.
BEGIN:
Sharina
@ Christopher Columbus
“It is not me who is obsessed with skin color of people…..its YOU”—I could not tell consider all your post have consisted of “he is white get over it.” If you were not then this would not be your….oh I lost count..post declaring the whiteness of said individuals. 🙂
Well that is simply your opinion though I doubt you can depict the difference between the two. Here are a few facts though
Santa= fictional character that can be any color
The Lone Ranger=fictional character that can be any color (though evidence suggests he is not white only that the man in the book is white and is Captain Hughes).
St. Nicholas=Not white by your American standards of race (he is brown).
END:
Black Americans exist in American folklore, I know of one off the top of my head, John Henry (railroad builder, had a hammer – competed against a machine) I thought he was a heroic figure while I was growing up. You must know of others, what characters did your mother’s tell you about that were larger than life? Is there a Black Santa figure? What about in Egyptian or Nubian or sub-Saharan African culture and oral traditions? How about a tooth fairy? Which I always knew was a petit white girl, not unlike Tinkerbelle – boy was I surprised when it was actually Duane (the Rock) Johnson.
I know the Hispanic community has several characters they tell their children about, both to inspire and sometimes to frighten, to teach social and cultural concepts. Are there similar concepts in Black America? If not, there should be. But to simply confiscate an existing fictional creature, claim they’re black and be done with it, serves to infuriate some who hold fast to the culture they were taught, and it also cheapens the benefit of fictional characters for your children, who will hear of the conflict in short order and will get caught up defending their parents choices, instead of listening to what the character was supposed to teach. I think that describes the Sharina / Christopher Columbus relationship nicely.
I think Randy and Teddy1975 are pointing that out too.
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@brothawolf
In that case his psyche was broken upon first commenting on the thread.
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@Riverside_Rob
Applause you managed to quote something I actually said this time rather than something you made up that I said.
“you (Sharina) miss the point when you say they can be any race -they can’t, they are defined by the culture that created them.”—You missed the point period which frankly is not something I am going to pretend to be surprised at. It does not matter who makes up what and how they make it up. If said person is fictional then people are free to imagine them whatever color they so choose. Now sit down because I would hate for you to hurt yourself.
“If not, there should be. But to simply confiscate an existing fictional creature, claim they’re black and be done with it, serves to infuriate some who hold fast to the culture they were taught, and it also cheapens the benefit of fictional characters for your children, who will hear of the conflict in short order and will get caught up defending their parents choices, instead of listening to what the character was supposed to teach”—-Considering my house is full of different cultures my kids are not limited to one thought one mind one color. As for growing up my parents taught me of white santa of course the failure on their part was that I did not believe in him anyway.
“I think that describes the Sharina / Christopher Columbus relationship nicely.”—See thinking is not your strong point. When you assume you make an azz out of me and you. 🙂
“I think Randy and Teddy1975 are pointing that out too”—see above in regards to my thoughts on you thinking.
“I never fail to get a rise out of you”—Here is a little something I would like to share as I have found myself in such an amazing mood. Don’t make yourself gullible enough to believe I respond to you because you have gotten a rise out of me. The reason I respond to you and people like you is because I enjoy every single moment I take in making a fool out of you. It puts a smile on my face ever lie I catch you in, every failed comeback you come up with, etc. My husband believes that I enjoy putting your kind down a bit too much (even told me I was wrong). I personally have found that sympathy is better left for those that deserve it.
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@Afrocentric loons
I don’t need Hollywood or TV to tell me which color the people or persons discussed here are…… I do research. That is something Afrocentrics should do but they are so entranced by BS that idiots like Chancellor Williams and Van Sertima publish that the truth is lost with these people. Funny those books published by both of those snake oil salesmen come without a single reference but are supposed to be historical ‘research’ lol GTFOH Afrocentrics, Ghetto Scholars, Ghetto “Intellectuals” are all making a buck off the gullibility of Black people….Its got to stop.
We need to get off the Afrocentric fantasies and back to present issues. I want Abagond to do a post on how the Black community is getting fed up with their DNC slave masters as evident in the Al Charlatan townhall meeting that took place in Chicago on the 19th. What do you say Abagond? I feel that the Black community is finally waking up to the lies the white liberal and his black slaves have shoveling to the black community the past 40 years. The chickens coming home to roost lol historically black people have always voted conservative but they have been tricked by the racist white liberal, the race card/ebt card shuffling socialist, the homosexual and their pet black slaves. I believe the end of black oppression is near…. 🙂
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@ Sharina
“…but what of the adults who fall into such fantasies?”
Many of them fell into those traps as kids and it is ingrained in their heads. I’d like to hope that all adults would grow up and snap out of it, but that’d just be wishful thinking on my part.
@ Brothawolf
“And I call him extreme because he named himself after one of the most destructive figures in human history kind of an homage to the real person.”
Maybe TV never taught him about the atrocities committed by the “real person,” and I’d bet his history teachers didn’t either. The guy has a national holiday and the US federal district was named after him.
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@resw77: I thought about that also, she used one of the many heinous historical figures, I wonder why he chose that one. But he is a troll so who knows why he is being so stupid.
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Well Resw77 I guess it is wishful thinking on both our parts.
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@Christopher Columbus (aka under educated loon)
People who do research are actually able to provide sources and educated response. The only thing you have provided was comic relief, delusional rants, and childish banter. Now because I have gotten bored with you I will not longer respond to you. 🙂
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@Sharina
Thank you for not responding to me anymore….Your ignorance has become notorious. Thanks again.
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@Christopher Columbus
If you read your post you would see they are the definition of ignorance. lacking of knowledge, information, or education. Hey here is some Christmas advice for you. If you spent less time projecting your failure across this board you might have time to actually cure yourself of your rapid ignorance. I am just thankful it is not contagious.
* All this coming from the imbecile who still believes in Santa.
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Merry Christmas and here is a nice depiction of what I am doing when I read your ridiculous posts.
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d74/QueenAquaBubbles/Donnapoints.gif)
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resw77
Maybe TV never taught him about the atrocities committed by the “real person,” and I’d bet his history teachers didn’t either. The guy has a national holiday and the US federal district was named after him.
I know.
In any case, he’s not worth talking to. He’s more like a circus act gone horribly wrong.
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@Brothawolf
“In any case, he’s not worth talking to. He’s more like a circus act gone horribly wrong.”—Even though you are not talking to me, I have to say you are right but I have a sick sick need to be an azz to people like him. smh*
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Christopher Columbus,
I don’t need Hollywood or TV to tell me which color the people or persons discussed here are…… I do research. That is something Afrocentrics should do but they are so entranced by BS that idiots like Chancellor Williams and Van Sertima publish that the truth is lost with these people. Funny those books published by both of those snake oil salesmen come without a single reference but are supposed to be historical ‘research’ lol GTFOH Afrocentrics, Ghetto Scholars, Ghetto “Intellectuals” are all making a buck off the gullibility of Black people….Its got to stop.
Assuming we don’t don’t or are incapable of doing research is a racist assumption, and those who assume make an a** out of themselves, which you are doing a bang up job of doing. 🙂 All it shows is your emotional and intellectual infantile mindset unable to hear someone else’s truth or opinion.
We need to get off the Afrocentric fantasies and back to present issues. I want Abagond to do a post on how the Black community is getting fed up with their DNC slave masters as evident in the Al Charlatan townhall meeting that took place in Chicago on the 19th. What do you say Abagond? I feel that the Black community is finally waking up to the lies the white liberal and his black slaves have shoveling to the black community the past 40 years. The chickens coming home to roost lol historically black people have always voted conservative but they have been tricked by the racist white liberal, the race card/ebt card shuffling socialist, the homosexual and their pet black slaves. I believe the end of black oppression is near….
Getting off topic again I see. Not surprising. It’s proof that you’re incapable of having a serious talk about race when the race is other than white. Go ahead and continue dreaming of a wonderful white world with a white Santa Claus. Just don’t convince us your dream is reality. It’s not working.
Go somewhere, have a plate of cookies, some warm milk and lie down. 🙂
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I’m sure most of us are already aware of the meeting in Chicago, and the meetings before that. We read the newspaper.
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@king
Was not aware but thanks for posting.
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Sharina – of course you’re free to imagine your fictional characters anyway you like. Just be sure they’re you’re fictional characters – not someone else’s. You husband is right – you debate for the put down, the zinger – instead of the pursuit of an idea. you’re weak that way, but I’ll still go around with you because it’s fun watching you spike the ball and claim victory – I even imagine you shakin yo head when you do. The problem is – you’re still you, so happy holidays and a merry new year.
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Sharina,
just my opinion, but this “Christopher Columbus” poster sounds a lot like Asplund:
“CC@ When I destroy the Afrocentric claims of Egyptians, Jews, Moors, ect. being black they all exhibit the same ignorant attitude oh Sharina and her Afrocentric cohorts on this racist blog display”
Maybe I missed it but the only person who argued that the Moors were not “black” and would not concede that they were “mixed-race” was Asplund and even though that discussion was never concluded by all, like a jacka’s, Asplund kept ranting that he “won” the debate…
and this poster, Christopher Columbus, is doing the same thing now.
so, just to put it out there, you do realize you are essentially wasting your time with this troll, (if this is really Asplund or even if it isn’t– still a waste because this poster has a big mouth and BS references to back it up)
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Whew! Lot of ink out of Sharina here, your fingers must be callused with all that education and elucidation pouring out.
LOL! Yeah. She’s my favorite. 🙂
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@ Sharina, I got a distinct aroma of Assplund earlier on… and couldn’t stop yawning!
Merry Christmas!
Catch up next year.
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^So did Herneith
So did I
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@ Chritopher Columbus: Comment deleted for being off topic.
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@ Riverside_Rob
“Sharina – of course you’re free to imagine your fictional characters anyway you like. Just be sure they’re you’re fictional characters – not someone else’s.”—You missed the whole point of the debate in an effort to try and keep up. It’s is not about nor was it ever about the fictional character or how someone views it. What the debate was about was taking a REAL person and changing them to the color they choose. Big difference in the nonsense you are trying to argue because I never said his fictional Lone ranger could not be white. Do a double check.
“You husband is right – you debate for the put down, the zinger – instead of the pursuit of an idea.”—When you actually bring about an idea then I will debate you on that merit, but you have not brought about any ideas or knowledge to this board. Neither has any of the other trolls minus one and the end game with him was you are with me or against me. Starting a debate with an insult of other bs is not bring about ideas just bs.
“you’re weak that way, but I’ll still go around with you because it’s fun watching you spike the ball and claim victory”—Actually I am strong that way and by now you should get enough of having to claim me as one thing to uplift yourself as another. You foolishly find yourself falling into my traps on each thread I decided to respond to you. You are so arrogant that way that you don’t realize that you are. In fact you fell seamlessly into one when you responded to this thread (though I won’t tell what it is). I don’t have to claim a victory as your mistakes are evident. I can simply highlight your mistakes by quoting them and elaborating. You can simply do what you and other trolls do best by being silent and pretending they you never said it.
“I even imagine you shakin yo head when you do. The problem is – you’re still you, so happy holidays and a merry new year.”—This is why I stopped respecting you in the first place. Trying to paint me as a stereotype on every turn. The problem is that you try to pretend to know me when the fact is you don’t know me from adam and eve.
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@Da Jokah
But couldn’t you tell…you’re my favorite too. Where else could I find a troll to be “educated” and childish all-in-one? 🙂
(http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv102/cheesegirl33/GIF/GIF%20Doctor%20Who/wooo.gif)
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@Linda and Bulanik
Your opinion is always welcome. 🙂
Though seriously I was actually getting bored. Most likely his redundancy.
Merry Christmas to you both and Happy New Year!!
@ King
Herneith is right about her trolls so when he says it then best believe it. Considering you said it as well I guess I will take that as a consensus based on other responses.
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Besides@ Riverside_Rob. You go around with me and anyone on this thread until you get caught in a lie. Once you get caught in a lie you disappear to another thread. 🙂
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Herneith: When SHE says it.
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Well I hope santa whatever color he is brings all of us lots of goodies. LOL!
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Asplund will get a big black lump of coal.
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@ King
Thanks for the correction of *she
@mary burrell
LOL! You know I don’t believe in no Santa. 🙂
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/24/us/macys-black-santa/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
“Macy’s has a black Santa — if you ask”
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@ Christopher Columbus
“I don’t need Hollywood or TV to tell me which color the people or persons discussed here are…We need to get off the Afrocentric fantasies and back to present issues. ”
Right, you could have learned that “Santa” is “white” by going shopping or sitting on his lap at a mall, which I’d bet you’ve done before. But I hate to break it to you that there’s no real “Santa.” Those are just pervs in costume, and I can assure you they don’t live in the North Pole, drive flying sleighs or deliver your gifts via chimneys, so get over your eurocentric fantasies.
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@ Vino in Veritas
I asked you:
“could you give provide a link showing us Patara on a modern-day map” which is used by present day Turkish locals?
And you answered this way:
Why is it “beside the point” — because YOU say so?
So, it is “insulting” to the Pictish people of Iron Age Caledonia to call their traditional lands Scotland because “Scotland” is what it says on maps Scots use these days? How insulting! The Picts were pushed out by the Gaels.
Ethnic cleansing!
Should I also go round calling Iran, “Persia”? Or China, “Cathay”?
Is it practical? Or is it because I just don’t “understand”?
I would simply use the antiquated terms for historical context and the contemporary ones for orientation and exposition.
It sounds to me, by accusing me of insulting language, that you are pushing for some kind of high moral ground where you have none.
You drink too much!
Contemporary Turkish maps tend to use Turkish place names, Scottish maps you Scottish place names — should they be in another languages other than those used by the population? That would not be sensible. But clearly, to you, that would make perfect sense…
This is why I said the following:
Similarly, if you were in the East of Turkey, and trying to locate a town called Kop in what was Armenia a century ago, you would have to look for the town of Bulanik instead — because that part of Turkey is now Turkey, not Armenia.
The Armenians, like the Greeks, were also destroyed by the Ottomans in genocidal campaigns. Neither you or I are responsible for that history.
Calling the town of Bulanik by its Armenian name Kop has a limit and a context, but it is not an “insult” to Armenia to call it by it present-day name.
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@Bulanik:
“You drink too much!”
Then we agree on one point after all…
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I think this was the best argument against the white santa thing, the sista was on point.
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So this witch thinks black face is okay. So now she’s fired for her ignorant remarks. But she not getting fired for being a racist she’s fired because she sucks at her job. The people who hired her at NBC need to be fired as well.
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Was she fired?
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