Was Cleopatra black? Spike Lee thinks so. Even Shakespeare, no Afrocentrist he, called her “tawny” (yellowish-brown). Hollywood, though, makes her white (pictured).
But what do the facts say?
First, a disclaimer: American ideas of race, of black and white, are an invention of the 1600s. In Cleopatra’s time and place, people saw themselves in terms of language and country and sometimes religion, not skin colour.
Her family tree: Cleopatra was the last of the Ptolemies, who had ruled Egypt for nearly 300 years, since the time of Alexander the Great. The first Ptolemy was a general that Alexander left in charge of Egypt. When Alexander died, Ptolemy took over. He was a Macedonian Greek.
To keep their bloodline pure, brother often married sister, but brother often took a mistress too. Cleopatra’s father’s mother was a mistress. She could have been anything from Greek to Nubian. We have no idea. Nor do we know what her mother was. All we can say from her family tree is that she was anywhere beween 25% to 100% Macedonian Greek.
Her sister’s skull: Some, like anti-Afrocentric scholar Mary Lefkowitz, said Cleopatra was white because there was no reason to suppose otherwise. But then in 2009 came news about the body of Arsinoe, Cleopatra’s sister, the only body of a Ptolemy that has ever been found:
Evidence obtained by studying the dimensions of Arsinöe’s skull shows she had some of the characteristics of white Europeans, ancient Egyptians and black Africans, indicating that Cleopatra was probably of mixed race, too. They were daughters of Ptolemy XII by different wives.
Meaning that the Ptolemies were hardly as lily white as Eurocentric scholars had led us to suppose.
Some doubt it is Arsinoe’s body – the proof is circumstantial but it is more likely her than not – while others say you cannot prove race by skull measurements. Attempts to get nuclear DNA from her bones were unfruitful.
The coins: The advantage of coins is that they were made when Cleopatra was alive. The disadvantage is that the artists were not always the best. Click to enlarge:
In the last coin she looks like she is in her fifties or sixties, but that coin was struck in 31 BC when she was 37! Except for the hair she could be a man!
Temple pictures: Coin artists will tend to make her look more like a Roman man than she was. Here, for example, is an Egyptian picture of her done at the same time (flipped horizontally for easier comparison):
Her language and religion: In addition to speaking Greek, she spoke Egyptian. That is odd: she is the only Ptolemy in 300 years to do so. Why? There is more: she also followed the Egyptian religion and dressed in an Egyptian way. That makes it seem likely that her mother was herself Egyptian, not just her father’s mother.
As stated in another post, Egyptians in those days were more than 40% black. That would make Cleopatra at least 20% black – in addition to whatever blackness she had in common with Arisinoe.
– Abagond, 2009.
See also:
Abagond 
You can not prove race by skull measurements! That kind of belief actually belongs to 19th century racist views on science.
You can’t “prove race” by any kind of measurements of that kind because race isn’t a biological thing.
On the other hand, coins can be very misleading, because they often follow established canon of portrayal. Coins follow Ancient Greek (and Roman) canon of portraying individuals on coins. Just like Egyptian canon dictates how to portray an Egyptian individual.
For example, these two images represent the same person, Prolemy I Soter, founder of Ptolemaic dynasty:
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I don’t agree there. Unless one thinks there’s no physical differences between the races other than skin. Look at these black albinos, they have white skin and blonde hair, but they are clearlly of African descent because of their underlying facial/bone structure: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ue5DN3zOIMU/SKjvhxoVgxI/AAAAAAAAAIA/xPN2q4YBUow/s1600-h/black+albino.jpg
There are genetic markers of isolated population groups. The outward phenotype of these genetic markers is what we refer to as “race”. So I would certainly say it’s biological, although in some instances race is a social construct such as considering someone who is 10% black to be black via the one drop rule. “African-American” is a social construct. But to say a Nigerian differs dramatically from a Japanese is not a construct.
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But to say a Nigerian differs dramatically from a Japanese is not a construct.
A Nigerian differs from a Japanese is not a construct. However, what we see as a race is a cultural thing, not biological.
Your albino example is good, but those are living people. We are talking about bones. You can not even easily tell a difference between male and a female if you only measure bones (believe me, I tried), not to mention more subtle things such as race.
Once again, I am not writing all this because I want to prove Cleopatra was white. I am just saying skull measurements don’t prove anything.
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I read an article on some website that some studies revealed that Cleopatra’s mother was african. She probably was of mixed raced though. She was no shero that’s for sure.
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Mira:
Excellent point about the coins. There are Egyptian pictures of her that look completely different (I am adding this one to the post):
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/121230/9495/Cleopatra-detail-of-a-bas-relief-69-30-BC-in
Art seems to have a genericizing effect, the sort of brown-skinned Barbie effect:
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Propaganda in regards to a ruler’s images is not a new thing!
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All the Egyptians were portrayed in a specific way, using canon of proportions. Any Egyptian ruler was portrayed in the same way, even if he was, in fact, a Macedonian.
However, it’s clear why they chose to do this. They claimed to be true rulers of Egypt. That’s why they were portrayed as Egyptians, not as foreigners. However, they were also Macedonians (not as same as Greeks, but let’s forget about it for a moment); that’s why they were portrayed in Hellenistic style as well.
Most we know about Cleopatra comes from Roman sources. Cleopatra was an enemy. And the rule is clear: never trust a written source if it’s about an enemy.
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Tulio, you are misreading genetics when you say that there “outward phenotype of these genetic markers is what we refer to as ‘race’.” That is only partially true.
Genetics gives us hordes of markers which cause phenotypical differences. Only a handful of these are understood as being relevant to “race”. This is what Mira means when she says race is socially defined: what is considered relevant to defining race is created by human social history, not nature.
Take, for instance, height. Height has genetic markers, just like skin color, and is certainly phenotypical. Yet you don’t consider Norwegians and Masai to be the same race just because they have the same height markers, do you? You COULD. There’s nothing in mother nature that prevents you from making a racial spectrum based on height, shoe-size, blood type, etc. But that’s non-sensical to you, because your society’s history has already defined color as being important to race and height as not important. So you consider bushmen and masai to be the same race, but not masai and norwegians.
In other words, sure there are physical differences. You are only socially programmed, however, to see a handful of these as relevant to race.
That’s what we mean when we say race is sociohistorically defined and not biologically defined and it’s not the same thing as saying “there’s no such thing as race” or that “people are all the same”.
Actually, if I’m saying anything, it’s that human biology is waaaaay to diverse, fractal and spread about to create the biologically stable and distinct sub-species that science understands as “races”.
Now, what Mira is trying to point out is that one cannot define race based on skull measurements. Actually, she’s wrong: one CAN – at least partially – as long as one makes an a priori definition of what characteristics mean which race. If you’re scientist, though, you’ll quickly see what’s wrong with that procedure: it’s tautological, not objective.
Abagond’s got it right from the start: “black” and “white” are concepts invented in the 17th century and it’s ludicrous – from a historical point of view to try to apply these to ancient Egyptians in an attempt to find out what they “really” were.
There is no “really” in this game, only relative positions.
So one relative position is to ask what would southern whites in 1950 classify Egyptians as? Abagond’s made a very good case that they would be classified as black.
20th century Brazilians, however, would have no trouble calling them “mixed” and I bet 21st century northern liberal americans would call them “multi-ethnic”.
All these positions are equally valid. It all depends upon what classifiers you a priori define as indicating one race or another.
What is NOT valid is the belief that Egyptians were white. No they weren’t at least not by any anglo definition of the term over the last 400 years.
The Egyptians themselves, however, would probably be baffled by this debate and odds are, if they understood it, would be insulted that we are linking them to either those primitive Kushites (proto-Sudanese) or those equally barbarian Shinden Sea Peoples (i.e. proto-Greeks).
My one complaint is the presumption that any “African” in Celopatra needs must have come from her father’s mistress. The Macedonians themselves – and certainly the Macedonian elite – were not ethnically homogenous and Greece and Egypt had been in contact for close to 1000 years by Cleo’s time. Who’s to say what was in the Ptolmey family woodpile? Bet it wasn’t a strictly Aryan family tree, not by a long shot…
But while whites might get annoyed at a portrayal of Cleopatra as black, think about this: folks generally accept a blond, blue-eyed Jesus, which is probably far less likely.
So why get one’s knickers in a bunch?
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So, in other words, if Cleo was mixed, then…if she was living here in this country today she would be considered black.
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It’s strange that when I saw this post I thought “I’ve never thought of cleolpatra as white” and reading the post, it makes alot of sense. Hollywood has always protrayed her as white, but that would make very much sense because she wouldnt be of european decent. I’ve always invisioned cleopatra in two ways when I pictured her in my mind, as being extremely beautiful and as having a darker skin color. But I’m not sure if I’m right about the extremely beautiful part……thats just how I see her.
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So, in other words, if Cleo was mixed, then…if she was living here in this country today she would be considered black.
Exactly, but she isn’t and that’s if she was mixed, which we do not know for certain.
What it does mean, though, is that you can legitimately portray her as anything from light white to dark brown.
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I read that Cleopatra was polyglot.
In my opinion, if his parents spoke about no foreign language, the egyptian as the other languages was probably a political strategy for Cleopatra.
If his parents spoke about several languages but not the egyptian, it would mean that Cleopatra had maybe a more intimate link with the egyptian people.
Correct me if I make a mistake, Egypt was not powerful any more at the time of Ptolemies.
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this articul is pure rubbish who ever wrote it did not research cleopatra properly if they did they would know that cleopatras mother was not a mistress her mother was Cleopatra V and is beleived to be Ptolemy XII Auletes(cleopatra vii’s father) sister or cousin.
historians do not know if they were sisters or cousins but they do know that they were of pure blood relations for the entire ptolemic family were imbreed between one another.
anyone who says she was anything but macodonian is a dumb ass
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all of you are failing to realize is that. before alexander the great macedonians did not procreate with people outside of Macedon. many of alexanders generals took wifes from nations they invaded and took over historians do know that when ptolemy was given egypt he inbread and kept his family line purely macedonian. his children did the same thing.and all members of the royle family were purely macedonian. all the way up till cleopatra when she had roman children the only reason egypt depicts her as egyptian is because she made her self out to be a re encarnation of isis. therefore they depicted her of egyptian when in truth she was macedonian
ie caucasion
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This comment from a previous discussion on “How Black was ancient Egypt?” belongs here.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/21/how-black-was-ancient-egypt/#comment-31059
For some reason Abagond did not make reference to this in this post. Maybe because the comment was posted the next day 24/12/2009.?
However, it lends credible evidence to support the conclusion that Cleopatra’s mother was African and by implication Cleopatra and her sister – Arsinoe too.
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It seems there is always opposition to Cleopatra being black. The real question is if Europeans are not 100% sure she was white why do they automatically assume she was lily white? They have spent most of the history of America portraying almost all ancient figures as white, what is the problem stating Cleopatra is mixed heritage and portraying her as such? Another misconception is a person must be blacker then Tar to be considered black. There are very light brown skinned people here in the united states that are considered Black, yet they also have mixed heritage somewhere, its obvious. And if it doesn’t matter why do white people seem to care the most about denying an obvious connection to blacks. In fact the whole world is results of Blacks so it should be a proud part of not only black heritage but white as well. Until we understand we are not crayons but a large family of human beings of different types, the madness will continue. I myself would like to see some one of color portrayed in a great historic film. – – Not Idi Amin ! lol.. JMO
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Cleopatra was Maceodonian-period. The Ptolomies were ALL inbred. When people bring up Arsinoe(actually Arsionoie the 4th) they neglect to remember they were HALF sisters….same Father, different Mother. If you look at the busts of her you can CLEARLY see the Greek beak of a nose(My sister has this so I am not being mean!) She, herself, identified herself as Greek, and I guess SHE would know!
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Cleopatra was playing all along.She claimed herself to be Isis,dressed up in Egyptian manner to woo the people of Egypt on one hand and to exude a charm of mystery,on the otherhand.She was much like Mata Hari who called herself a Hindu princess from Java though,she was originally a European from Holland.Much like that,Cleopatra,a Macedonian descent covered herself with Egyptian wig n ornamented with golden snakes to acquire herself an exotic beauty that would have caught the attention of the known world.
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She was caucasoid (white) maybe, just maybe if you stopped using very selective American criteria for determining race and actually stuck to the European way of Caucasoid, Negroid & Mongoloid you’d see things clearer.
Cleopatra, was not remotely black, that is wishful Afro-centrist thinking by Black Americans. She was Caucasoid, Greek/Macedonian ethnicity wise. How exactly, can you possibly make such an absurd claim that a woman descended from a Greek general, whom was the product of inbreeding, could possibly be Black? Like seriously?
Aye, the Ptomely’s took mistresses, but their offspring are called “bastards” and therefore would have no claim to the throne.
Absurd claims.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1095043/Sorry-Liz-THIS-real-face-Cleopatra.html
But who cares about science and facts right. Just so long as she remains “white”.
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Egypt is in africa she was a nubian queen nomatter how bad you guys want her to be white she was not back tgen they did not have the right sunscreen for whites you guys would have got burnt by the hot african sun lol
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Most of you, if you will pardon the pun, seeing this issue as purely black and white while the world is normally some shade of gray (or olive brown, in this case).
Was Cleopatra Nubian black? Absolutely not, she had Macedonean Greek anscestory.
Was she lilly white like a Swedish bikini model? Not bloddy likely either. The Ptolemy’s had been in Egypt for hundreds of years and, being men, would have been fond of whatever good looking woman caught their eye, regardless of her skin color. Being Pharohs (or even just nobles), it wouldn’t have been difficult to arrange for many of the to become royal concubines and thus introduce some local heritage into the bloodline.
So, more than likely, Cleopatra would TODAY be considered “mixed heritage”. Which, for those of us who travel the world on a regular basis, is a GOOD thing; because the genetic term “hybrid vigor” certainly holds true for children of mixed parentage; who are often seen as exotic and can certainly be beautiful.
The “today” part is important, however, because Ancient Egyptians (or Greeks, or Romans, or Etruscans, or Syrians, or Jews) would have found the entire concept of defining who they were or where they belonged based on their skin tone as confusing and irrelevant. Point of origin, chosen religion, and language(s) spoken would have been far more important them.
So the important question is not whether Cleopatra (or Hannibal, or even Jesus Christ) was “pure” black or “pure” white or something in between but “Who cares, and what difference does their skin tone make to their contribution to history?
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I forgot to mention it (because of the low level of importance); but WHERE exactly was it that Spike Lee graduated from and earned the creditials to be considered an expert on ancient history and geneology?
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Uh…I’m tired about arguing about Cleopatra’s skin color. It doesn’t matter if she was light or dark, the fact remains that she seduced two men, poisoned one, and betrayed the other. Despite her color I can’t imagine her being any one’s favorite person. I know if I’d been living back then, I wouldn’t have liked her because of her character. Ruler or not, black or white, shady is shady without having to use color to define shady. Didn’t she kill her brother, sister or cousin or somebody to get to the throne anyway? uhk!!!
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Does Michelangelo’s portrait of Cleopatra look Black to you?
http://www.art.com/products/p12064603-sa-i1503843/michelangelo-buonarroti-cleopatra.htm
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I am of mixed races Arab, Black White, Chinese and Hispanic and my half brother is German. He is much lighter than me, but he is still black. Identifying yourself as Greek does not necessarily mean you are white. I have many friends that are doctors and scientists and I am going to school to be a doctor and I have done studies on Cleopatra, and she is definitely of black descent.
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Navaura you are completely ignorant about Cleopatra if that is your summary of who she was. Caesar was old enough to be Cleopatra’s father and notorious for his sexual conquest, Mark Anthony did his fair share of seducing as well. Yes, she killed a few of her siblings because given the chance they would have killed her. Yes, you need to go back and research this woman’s legacy as a ruler before you even begin to worry about her race which is a non-factor.
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@ Shara
The post was not meant to be a history lesson. If you want that then I suggest reading a book in regards to her legacy and history. The post did exactly what it was meant to…question her race as it is defined by American society.
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@ navaura
I guess you are allowed to your opinion of her but I found her very intriguing to say the least. I can think of quite a few people that have done similar things.
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@ C
I am curious on your studies of Cleopatra and how you discovered that she was of black descent.
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I think that any one who emphatically suggests that Cleopatra was of black or white race is fooling themselves There is is just too much up for debate to come to a conclusive answer.
1) If we are to believe that the Ptolemies did not mingle with the natives of Egypt and only interbred with family members how can they not know who her grandmother and mother were?
2) Potlemy XII (Auletes?), Cleopatra’s father, may have been an illegitimate son. The only reason he was made king was because there were no other male heirs. His father was in exile in either Syria or Sinope so his mistress, Aulete’s mother could have been Greek, Turkish or Syrian.
Cleopatra’s son by Caesar was of mixed race and an illegitimate son yet he was a contender for the Egyptian throne and he was a rival to Augustus Caesar so there just is no way to be certain of any of their racial make up based on the bias information we have.
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Sharina
I was referring to a comment by Navaura about his dislike of Cleopatra’s character. I don’t think you read my comment accurately. I really did not need a clarification as to what this post was about because I am more than capable of reading and comprehending.
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@ Shara
Then I will apologize for misreading your post.
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@ Shara
” I really did not need a clarification as to what this post was about because I am more than capable of reading and comprehending.”—I don’t remember saying you did and I am not sure what part of my post included some type of clarification. I simply stated and I will requote “The post did exactly what it was meant to…question her race as it is defined by American society.” So lets me fair and say we both failed to accurately read each others posts on certain aspects.
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be*
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About Cleopatra’s ancestry, the best authority on-line is Chris Bennett:
http://www.tyndalehouse.com/egypt/ptolemies/cleopatra_vii_fr.htm
Facts:
– We do not know who was Ptolemy Auletes’s mother. We only know that he was nicknamed “Nothos”, bastard. There is no doubt that Auletes’s father was “purely” Macedonian (look at Chris Bennett genealogical tables, or in the Portuguese Wikipedia: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemeu_IX_S%C3%B3ter_II )
– We do not know who was Aulete’s wife (or wifes). It is highly probably, however, that she was Cleopatra Tryphaena, that co-ruled for one year with Berenice (Auletes’s daughter) when Auletes was exiled, and who Porphyry, quoted (or misquoted) by Eusebius, took up as Berenice’s sister.
– The evidences that Arsione was Cleopatra’s half sister and/or that she was of mixed ethnic origin are feeble and not to be taken seriously.
– We do not know who was Cleopatra’s mother, however, it seems that, since she was an enemy of Roma, if there was any doubt that she was illegitimate, some roman source would have written it. Lack of evidence, here, is as good as evidence.
The only valid speculation for supposing that Cleopatra had any non-Macedonian ancestor, then, comes from her paternal grandmother, the unknown mistress of Ptolemy Lathyrus.
Considering the evidence, I think Hollywood’s portray of Cleopatra as European is quite accurate.
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I forgot to add that far back Cleopatra had some persian and eastern ancestors, like the persian princess Apama, wife of Seleucus Nicator https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apama_%28esposa_de_Seleuco_I_Nicator%29
But there is no evidence for any egyptians in her ancestry.
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@ Albmont
” Lack of evidence, here, is as good as evidence.”—Lack of evidence is never as good as evidence. A better assessment of Cleopatra is that she could not be categorized by our ideas of race. If there is so much we don’t know about her it is safer to stick to the don’t know than try to draw conclusions based on little or no evidence.
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She wasn’t black. Can’t necessarily categorize her race, I agree. But she was not black. Greeks ran Egypt for a while. She was Greek. Or Macedonian or some sh*t.
It’s like, if 500 yrs from now we look back at “white America” and wonder about our “black” presidents race.
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@ mussandrad
I personally am not saying she was, but I am saying that whether she was white or black can not be categorized by American standards of race no matter how you or anyone else argue it.
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Greeks or Macedonian by American standards is not a race by the way.
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I agree with that. Cuz people swear she was black like you and I are black..she was not that. Probably darker than most Europeans tho
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Yea that’s true, but I mean Greek people are not black.
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@mussandrad
“Yea that’s true, but I mean Greek people are not black.”—No they are not. Atleast the ones I have seen, but the way the world was viewed and who was considered what must be a heck of a lot different from how it is today. There was a discussion once about how white people have more black blood than they care to admit. Which makes me wonder how many generations it took for them to wash it away?
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Word.
What is black anyway? Because idk anymore tbh. My S. African buddies say I’m not black. They call me colored. I’m like Wtf? Lol colored means black. They disagree. I know this kid from Bangladesh, looks like the regular darkskin Indians, and he says he’s black, and that’s what people in county identify him as. Which is odd to me because I know a lot of Indians, light and dark brown, even darker than me and they would never say they are black. Never.
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So I guess black means different things depending on where you are. That’s actually pretty interesting
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@ mussandrad
I myself question what is black….but I think how black is perceived depends on the country you are in. Some of the others like Linda or Jefe may have a better idea of this as I don’t believe they are in the united states.
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I live here in the USA now, Sharina, Florida to be exact… I do go home every year but my children were born and raised here. I’ve been back and forth, in and out of the USA probably longer than some posters have been alive.
As I mentioned in the Miss America post, Nina would be labeled “black” in many European countries way before Vanessa William’s would be called black.
In the UK, it’s understood that Vanessa is “mixed” and Nina is “Indian” but to many British white people, both are “black”; in the Caribbean / Latin America both would be considered “brown” but if they chose to call themselves “black”, no one would care – they’d side-eye them though.
The “Arabs” from Egypt or Sudan I went to school with (in Europe), who looked like many light-skinned black Americans you see in the USA, would look at someone from west Africa and call them “African” meaning they were black.
I was definitely not considered “black” by them or the black African students. Only in the USA, did I run into people who wanted to label me “black” when they found out I had black/African ancestry (that’s how I learned about the “one-drop rule” –
and mind you, I don’t have a problem with anyone calling me “black” – I just know that when certain “black” people in America want to pretend they are “blacker than black” and anoint themselves as the spokes-people for “Afrocentric, pan-Africanism” {even though they’ve never set foot in Africa}, all of a sudden, I’m too “light-skinned and loose-haired” to be down with the cause — even though these so-called black militants couldn’t find Burkina Faso on a map.
The African people I knew took their Ethnicity, Family and Traditions seriously… it Really mattered to them.
I don’t know how Africans truly feel about “what” it means to be “black” when considering us “Afro-descendants” from the Diaspora –but To me, the person who sums it up the best is Kola Boof:
“ Not a single Black person would dare claim that “anybody can be White” (even when they LOOK White). But they will claim that Africans are so inferior that just any 2% mattress-f’ck can be a Black person.
The KKK invented the 1 drop rule….to encourage Blacks to breed themselves into b’stardization.
Blacks try to uphold this rule for dear life. They are still slaves. And it’s a disgrace. But most of all, it shows their UTTER contempt and hatred for Africa and for Black people. The blanket hateful disrespect of claiming a White woman {she’s talking about Soledad O’Brien) is “Black”—-because she feels like it and we’re nothing anyway.
Barack Obama just as his Kenyan family taught him is “Half-Caste African Luo” …..he is African, but he is not Black. The other Africans on this thread have told you the same thing. Black is a Color that symbolizes African people—it’s not off white or cream yellow. We don’t accept “kinda black” or “black at certain times of the year” as Black.”
can’t post most of her comments due to profanity but I did post it in the Kola Boof link
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/03/30/kola-boof/#comment-155614
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@ Linda
No, Linda, that is only true in part.
Vanessa would be perceived as “mixed-race” to many British white, but Nina, as an Indian, would be perceived as ASIAN, not black.
This is regardless of skin tone.
People of South Asian background are classed as “brown”, and even though many don’t have an issue with saying they have a “black£ skin tone, or for political reasons they are not considered “black” in the same way Africans or Afro-Caribbean people are.
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* “black”
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Lind, with regard to Nina, are you very sure about that?
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* Linda, spelt your name wrong — sorry 😀
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Hey Bulanik,
good to see you 🙂
For sure, you’re right that Indians are Asian and are classified as such and are considered “brown” in the UK (and other countries) and yes, white Brits do definitely distinguish between who is Asian and who is Afro-descended
but when insults start flying, I noticed that difference got diminished.
I was going by personal observation where I have witnessed the term “black b’stard, N’ger, and Wog” slung at both Afro-Caribbeans, Africans, and south Asians — I’ve seen mixed-raced people get lumped into the “Wog and Paki” category along with Pakistani people.
when I went to countries in central Europe, dark skinned people were called “black” regardless if African or Indian — it was more in reference to their skin-tone. They don’t have that colonial history to go by and were less “politically correct”
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Linda, I don’t mean to say that European perceptions of India and Indians are not tainted by racism. Also, I have noticed that many Indians themselves seem to want the approval of white people and see “whiteness” as an aspiration. However, I disagree that the way Europeans see Indians is as “black”.
It is far more nuanced than that.
The Spanish for example, more than before, recognize that their beloved “Gypsy” culture and flamenco is, in fact, an import of India and a product of Indians.
Among the middle classes, it seems, aspects of Indian culture like yoga, dance and literature, or Bollywood, for instance, play a part in that perception of what Indians are:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEpAldoLYDI)
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Linda, greetings 😀
But how sharp and individuated are insults?
When I was a youngster growing up there it was ONLY Asians who were called “P*ki”. I thought it was my middle name at one stage!
And guess who called me that? Whites AND blacks. And mixed-race (when it used to mean one black parent and one white parent, lol).
Curiously enough at the time, Western Oriental Gentleman, (aka: wogs) was put aside for people of visibly recent African-descent: Africans and Afro-Caribbeans, rather than for people out of Asian, the diaspora.
*
But times change, and the white, black or mixed-race British racist, doesn’t bother to distinguish now as the ones who say these things don’t remember the waves of immigration behind that. And they don’t care, either, they just want to attack. That’s how insults go. When the hate gets too much…they lose control, and it stops to make sense.
As for “black” in Europe — sure, they see brown and dark brown skin as pretty much “black”, but they also see and have a clue about the differences. There are many instances, but I remember noticing this around Slovaks once, many of whom are surprising dark skinned and fairly “Indian” looking themselves.
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Linda, 2 comments in moderation.
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OK, will look out for them.
Don’t feel bad — I was “wogged and Paki’d” up a few times myself and had no clue they were racial slurs until my local Indian grocer explained it to me (obviously, I had to ask him “what does Paki mean?”)
I was using Nina and Vanessa Williams because depending on the country in Europe, the term “black” seemed fluid — with Vanessa losing her “black” status depending on what west or north European country she would be in and Nina gaining “black” status the farther east in Europe she went, even though they would acknowledge her Indian heritage.
I’m curious, would Vanessa Williams be seen as “black” in India in reference to her African heritage or would she be considered “mixed-race”?
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@ Linda, yes, I see your point about Nina being seen as black and Asian.
Now, would Vanessa Williams be considered “black” in India?
Oh, I don’t know for sure, but I doubt that.
She is “enviably” fair of skin tone and has light-coloured eyes, too, so no need for contact lenses!! 😀 You know light coloured skin and eyes is the dream ticket by female beauty standards there, so no problem there for Vanessa, lol.
I would chance a guess that at the worst there might be some rubbish said about her soft features — in opposition to the sharp features that is supposedly “prettier” to some — but I think people would not take kindly to her calling herself black at all. It would cause confusion, consternation and amusement possibly methinks.. “Mixed race” as a designation might cut it, but a mixture of what? I don’t think that would make sense to most people and mean nothing.
I have a feeling that Ms Williams might be seen instead as simply a fair-skinned and gorgeous “American” and that would be the end of it.
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About the “Greeks are not black”…. Let me just muddy things a bit. It seems like the line of Kings of Mythological Athens _might_ be called “black” by KKK standards.
Because their first kings, who are described mythologically as being half-human and half-animal, might have been half-egyptian.
That’s the rationalization of the myths done by Diodorus Siculus, a greco-roman writer of the I cent BC that loved to spoil the myths using Evemerization.
According to Diodorus:
“28.6 Moreover, certain of the rulers of Athens were originally Egyptians, they say. Petes, for instance, the father of that Menestheus who took part in the expedition against Troy, having clearly been an Egyptian, later obtained citizenship at Athens and the kingship. . . . 7 He was of double form, and yet the Athenians are unable from their own point of view to give the true explanation of this nature of his, although it is patent to all that it was because of his double citizenship, Greek and barbarian, that he was held to be of double form, that is, part animal and part man.” – http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/1A*.html
Also:
“29.4 (…) (The Eumolpidae) are also the only Greeks who swear by Isis, and they closely resemble the Egyptians in both their appearance and manners”
Back to Cleopatra: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/cleopatra/bust.html
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@Linda and Bulanik
Thank both of you for providing that information. 🙂
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It seems there is a lot of misinformation about Cleopatra’s ethnicity. I am reading she was Greek. I am reading about how she married her brothers to co reign in the kingdom. I am learning this was an Egyptian custom. There is much to learn.
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Can always count on Linda and Bulanik for information and clarity.
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There seems to be much conjecture and speculation on this subject. But this is an interesting post none the less.
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How exactly did Cleopatra die? I have read that she died from the bite of an asp. I learned the asp is either an Egyptian cobra or black adder. Then I read that the snake bite story is just myth/legend, I read another account that she died of hemlock. And that she probably used this on her previous enemies.
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citation:
When Alexander died, Ptolemy took over. He was a Macedonian Greek.
did you are friends of greeks?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2975360/posts
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http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2012/7/10/forensics-101-race-determination-based-on-the-skull.html
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@Donna Hanna
Perhaps you would care to read exactly what those that studied actual Egyptian skeletal remains had to say before trying to use forensic skull remains to make a point. Considering that I don’t believe that Cleopatra’s remains were found I find it hard to believe that you would even be foolish enough to use that as proof. Again I stress that they were not able to conclude the race of them and partially because race is just a political construct. It serves no real purpose.
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@ Donna Hanna
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/01/alas_poor_yorick_or_is_it_othello.html
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She was white and very beautiful, obviously that’s not her on those coins. She is closer then you may think, I have a dna match to cleopatra on a blood stained artifact you may be very interested in. Please contact me if this egg is of interest to u 🙂
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Yvette
You have managed to present the most dumbest comment in this whole post.
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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[…] Was Cleopatra black? Spike Lee thinks so. Even Shakespeare, no Afrocentrist he, called her “tawny” (yellowish-brown). Hollywood, though, makes her white (pictured).But what do the facts say?Continue reading… […]
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I never understood this debate. Why does it matter? Cleopatra and Ptolemies were a dynasty of foreign origins, and what difference does it make if they’re black, white, or brown? Not saying foreign dynasties never adopted aspects of dynastic Egyptian civilizations preceding them, but what difference does it make? If we make ‘Cleopatra’ white or brown, does that really make a difference in African history? Does it somehow mean we’re erasing or trying to argue that Ancient Egypt was not African, not connected to groups in the south?
When I think about Ancient Egypt and Africa, I’m more interested in the dynastic period before the Ptolemies. I want to learn more, specifically, about how predynastic, early dynastic, Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom and New Kingdom periods in Ancient Egypt related to the south, how their societies changed over time. It’s intriguing that so many of the important dynasties arose in the south, in Upper Egypt or further south, like in the Middle Kingdom or the beginning of the New Kingdom.
@Abagond
Not sure about your ‘numbers’ of 40% ‘black’ in Egypt during the time of Cleopatra. My understanding is that over time, the distinctions between Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt blurred over the dynastic period, over thousands of years, and it doesn’t seem to make much sense to try to quantify ‘blackness in Ancient Egypt around the time of Cleopatra. Were many or perhaps most of the population in the Egyptian Nile Valley darker hued than, say, folks in Rome, sure, but what use is ‘race’ or ‘blackness’ at that period? If Ancient Egypt around the time of Cleopatra were not ‘black,’ does that mean they cannot be African or carry on specific aspects of dynastic Egyptian civilization that arose in the south?
SOY Keita has written about Ancient Egypt and African population diversity extensively, combining bioanthropology, history, archaeology, etc. and although he is quick to point to common cultural traits and origins with people in Sudan or the Sahara, he doesn’t try to racialize it or use words like ‘black’ or ‘white’. In his research, he finds ‘affinities’ between populations in Lower Egypt with groups from North Africa and the Levant that sort of merge with the more ‘southern’ affinities of skeletal materials, limb proportions, and cultures of Upper Egypt and Nubia
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwMvxir1n7Q)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoeELytDAFo)
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It’s amazing how often her Persian ancestry is neglected. Scholars generally identify Cleopatra as of Greek and Persian ancestry, based on fact that her Greek Macedonian family had intermingled with the Persian aristocracy of the time. Her Ptolemic bloodline is fairly well documented, with few gaps. Her Persian ancestry is rooted with Spitamenes, the Persian warlord who rebelled against Alexander in Sogdia, and Mithradates of Pontus, and was well maintained incestuously. By any model of her ancestry, and any means of reckoning, it is necessary to conclude that Cleopatra was, at least, 1/4th Persian. However, she was probably around 1/2 persian, but quite possibly even 6/8th’s Persian by genetic ethnicity. Of course, she was nationally a Macedonian and Politically affiliated with Egypt.
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Paul Kruger, Boer leader, apparently spoke some Bantu dialects, but that doesn’t make him of Bantu origin.
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