Warning: Charts ahead! You do not have to understand them to understand the post. If you do look at them always note the years each one covers. I tried to get them as close to 1960-2010 as possible.
The Black illegitimacy argument (by 1965) says that one of the main things holding Black Americans back is not White American racism but the high Black illegitimacy rate: “Over 70% of Black children are now born out of wedlock!”
Charles Murray, he of “The Bell Curve” (1994), said in 1984:
Illegitimacy is the single most important social problem of our time – more important than crime, drugs, poverty, illiteracy, welfare, or homelessness because it drives everything else.
The American illegitimacy rate by race in 2008 (Hispanics separate):
- 72.3% Blacks
- 65.8% Natives
- 52.6% Hispanic
- 28.7% Whites
- 16.9% Asians
The absolute numbers are considerably different because Blacks are only 13% of country. In 2008 out-of-wedlock births were:
- 37.6% White
- 31.7% Hispanic
- 26.1% Black
- 4.6% Asians and Other
Further: An unmarried Hispanic woman is more likely to have a child out of wedlock than an unmarried Black woman.
Yet it is still seen as a “Black” issue:
- President Obama frequently scolds Black men for being bad fathers, but no one else – even though only 26.1% of illegitimate births are Black.
- For every web page that mentions “White fatherlessness” there are 394 that mention “Black fatherlessness” (Google search, 2013).
The argument goes back at least to the Moynihan Report: “The Negro Family: The Case For National Action” (1965) by Patrick Moynihan, then an adviser to President Johnson. He said that even if White racism magically disappeared overnight, Blacks would still be stuck in poverty because of a “tangle of pathologies”, among them an illegitimacy rate of 24.5% (1964). (Notice that the White rate is now higher than that.)
The Black pathology argument is now one of the main pieces of the colour-blind racism that most Whites believe in.
I do believe fatherlessness is a serious issue, but Whites racialize the issue and then use it to deny their own racism.
About the Black illegitimacy rate:
1. It is not caused by racism. Illegitimacy has been rising across the West. In France and Sweden, for example, most children are no longer born to married women. That is a sea change in Western society that goes way beyond Black America.
2. It does not cause poverty or crime. At least not in a big way: Black illegitimacy has gone through the roof since 1960, yet crime has been up and down, while poverty has dropped by half.
3. It is not a sign of moral decline: the birth rate among unmarried Black women has been dropping since 1992 – meaning that they are acting more responsibly, not less. The reason the illegitimacy rate goes up is because the birth rate among married Black women has been dropping even faster, something that has been going on since the 1950s.
4. It is not a particularly useful number: An illegitimate birth tells you nothing about whether the mother lives with the father or gets married later, just as a legitimate birth tells you nothing about divorce, separation or incarceration. Single-parent households would be a better measure (and still cannot account for crime or poverty).
5. Republicans use it to scapegoat Blacks for the ills of society, allowing them to keep taxes low for the rich and avoid calls for reform. Thus Charles Murray and his ilk.
6. Whites do not care – they just like looking down on Blacks. They are not being “concerned”, they are being racist.
Thanks to Ebonymonroe for the Tim Wise article that got me started on this post.
Sources: UPI, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Center for Disease Control, OECD, Heritage Foundation, Google Images, “The De-moralization Of Society” (1996) by Gertrude Himmelfarb.
See also:
- UPI: “Black Illegitimacy Rate Declines” (2003) – the Black illegitimacy argument dressed up as a news article. It even throws in the model minority stereotype. It was written by none other than Steve Sailer. He quotes Charles Murray, a racist, right-wing ideologue who believes welfare should be cut to zero, and Professor Henry Harpending, a scientific racist.
- Urban Institute: The Black Family: Five Decades After the Moynihan Report (2013) – for those who want a sincere take on the issue.
- colour blind racism: the four frames
- Black people: The Republican User’s Guide
- Charles Murray
- White ethnographic gaze: the 1960s – the White sociology of Moynihan’s day
- King’s Dream at 50: A Report Card
Lies, damned lies and statistics. Mark Twain.
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I am going to be honest here.
This is not one of my favourite posts. The main reason is because it focuses a lot of using statistics to “prove” the pathology arguments as wrong. This can become just as spurious as using statistics to prove or invalidate any other black pathology argument. When I see all sorts of statistics manipulated to prove a point (without the usual rigour of a scientific study) I start to read things with a grain of salt, esp. when I know they could be manipulated to prove a different point.
But fair enough, we do need to examine the following
– why people use statistics to try to prove black pathologies, forcing people to use statistics to disprove them
– why we are attributing the ills of the society to black pathologies in the first place
– what is causing society phenomena, instead of automatically assigning it to a black pathology and then finding statistics to support that argument
– ignoring effects such as the mass incarceration of black men (which affect the ability to be a present father or to hold steady jobs or complete education).
I know it can feel debilitating to hear the stories of black pathologies daily and how people use statistics to support them, but think of your audience here. Most of your readers are not affected by the spurious black pathology arguments anyhow. They know the statistics have been manipulated. Yet, you go and manipulate the statistics to disprove the argument. It also makes your argument just as weak as the ones you are trying to disprove.
Better yet, focus on what we can do about it.
And to the extent that there is a problem (eg, higher black illegitimacy rates), tear down the
– non-rigourous use of statistics to “prove” the pathology
– tendency of pinning down alleged black pathologies to blacks, as opposed, to say, what whites are doing (with tools such as the Model Minority stereotype and mass incarceration of black men).
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Two points I need to say:
1. Sadly, not only white people use this argument, but black people hook themselves up to this nonsense as to why there’s so much crime in black communities and only black communities as far as they’re concerned.
2. People who love TV as opposed to critical thinking will watch Maury religiously and believe in that black people are pathological baby makers with no responsibility.
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And the deconstruction continues
From the past to the present abagond continues contribute to the falsification and invalidation of primary points of whats currently known as racism/white supremacy.
But by now this should taken for granted because an essential portion of the system is deception (another word for lying).
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Great post! I found it particularly telling how the unmarried birth rates are highest in countries such as Iceland…not exactly the first place most people would expect to find a large black population, thus blowing the absurd stereotype of the “illegitimate” black birthrate out of the water.
The other thing most racists refuse to discuss,but which you touched upon briefly, is the increased responsibility… fewer births in general…which may be due to many factors, including improved access to birth control, better and more timely/realistic health education, and women gaining more autonomy over their bodies, finances, and general decision-making. Women are less likely to marry just because they are pregnant, thus less likely to be stuck in a failing marriage the way earlier generations often were. Also, more women are empowered to call out a rapist or other abuser, rather than be coerced into marrying a man who exploits her (thus fewer teenaged mothers married to much older,possibly predatory men, as many pregnant teens have been in any generation).
To that end, I would venture a guess, but would love to see the numbers, as to the real ages of unwed mothers. Millions of women are waiting until their 30s or 40s to marry, let alone have children, and many of these women opt to have a child solo if they haven’t found the right life partner. Further, the “unwed” part doesnt take into account any parenting outside of the heterosexual union. This pokes a lot of holes in the racist theory that unwed=doom.
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@ brothawolf
Amen. they use this stuff to distract from the high unemployment rate and so we get distracted from demanding or creating more jobs. Also it’s funny to me how they love saying black women and latino women are the ones making these out of wedlock babies yet when it comes time to make a show and give out paychecks about babies being born to unwed or teen moms they get white women. They use it to demonize us and make us the poster child for this but if its money involved time to throw em out.
And with this it doesn’t say how many of them do have their fathers in their lives, as there are some that are better co parenting than being in a relationship together but can be great parents but not great partners. I’m more concerned about kids that don’t have both parents in their lives than the ones that have both but they just are not together.
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Aww, Aba, that’s so shweet.
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This is just another take on the “family values” propaganda of the conservative americans. Everything would be ok if people would only live like their fore fathers did. Really? Like in the 1850’s or so?
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mstoogood4yall,
it’s funny to me how they love saying black women and latino women are the ones making these out of wedlock babies yet when it comes time to make a show and give out paychecks about babies being born to unwed or teen moms they get white women.
That right there! Thank you!
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There’s so many statistics on the disadvantages of children who grow up without a father in the home.
*Children in single-parent families are five times more likely to be poor
Even as young adults, they are nearly twice as likely to require psychological help.
*Girls in single-parent homes are at a much greater risk for precocious sexuality and are two and a half times more likely to have a child out of wedlock.
*Crime and substance abuse are strongly linked to fatherless households.
Statistics show that 60 percent of rapists grew up in fatherless homes, as did *72 percent of adolescent murderers, and 70 percent of all long-term prison inmates.
*70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions are from fatherless homes.
* 85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
* 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
* 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
* 75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes.
* 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes.
* 80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
* 70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes.
* 85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home.
37% of juveniles, when first arrested for a serious crime, reported a parent or sibling in prison. Young men without father-figures are twice as likely to be incarcerated as those with them.
Fatherless kids are more likely to:
– Be convicted of a violent crime (2,000% more likely than those with fathers)
– Be involved in a teen / unwed pregnancy (700% more likely)
– Be involved in rape, sexual deviance (1,400% more likely)
– Be a high-school dropout (900%)
– Attempt suicide as a teenager (500%)
– Run away from home (3,200%)
– Abuse drugs / alcohol (1,000%)
*71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
*32 times more likely to run away
*Daughters of single parents are 53 percent more likely to marry while still teenagers 711% more likely to have children as teenagers, 164% more likely to have a pre-marital birth and 92% more likely to get divorced themselves
*90% of adolescent repeat arsonists live with only their mother.
*Children with involved, loving fathers are significantly more likely to do well in school, have healthy self-esteem, exhibit empathy and pro-social behavior, and avoid high-risk behaviors such as drug use, truancy, and criminal activity compared to children who have uninvolved fathers.
*Fathers who live with their children are more likely to have a close, enduring relationship with their children than those who do not.
*Compared to children born within marriage, children born to cohabiting parents are three times as likely to experience father absence
*90% of homeless children are from fatherless homes
adolescents from single-parent families have been found to engage in greater and earlier sexual activity.”
*One-Parent Households Double Risk Of Childhood Sexual Abuse. The study adjusted for socioeconomic status, and still found that children of one-parent households were at an increased risk for childhood sexual abuse.
So, I personally, am very much in support of the nuclear family unit. But that is just my own convictions, and I don’t judge those who embrace an alternative route. But, I’m fed up of all the babymother stereotypes, regarding the Black community, when it has become increasingly more responsible. In truth, it’s simply not true. Great post Abagond.
Shout out to ks, since he turned me on to the Tim Wise report.
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I appreciate the effort and info of this post. I would point out that misusing whatever concept, statistic, quote, document or anything else that is at hand to justify, rationalize or excuse bad behavior is a human characteristic. Understanding human behavior and finding solutions to human problems are not well served by interpreting this as racism.
People justify cruel and destructive behavior by quoting the Bible, or the Constitution, or Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations”… I should say misquoting or taking statements out of context.
I’m not accusing you of doing this. I’m saying you are missing the more fundamental issue which is common to us all… the tendency to justify and blame “the other” rather than understand what it is that we are all doing to one another and how poorly that is working for all of us.
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@ Dean Kisling
I blamed illegitimacy on racism where????
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@ Jefe
The way I look at it, White racists (scroll down) are going to twist statistics right and left whether I bring them up or not, just like with crime. I would rather stake my claim in the post rather than do it in the comments.
The whole issue is a mine field. Moynihan, for example, I think meant well, but it was rapidly twisted by racists, who used it to “blame the victim”.
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Agabond, as you note, raw illegitimacy numbers generally fail to distinguish between children born of single women where no father figure is materially present in their lives from children born in family-type units where the father and mother are not married. This latter arrangement is common in Europe and becomming moreso in the US, especially among upper-middle class.
“Fatherlessness” — that is, the absence of a living-at-home father figure — would be a more useful number to have for purposes of determining whether it affects socio-economic matters, but it is much harder to determine.
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Peanut said:
Laws permitting to slaves considered all slave children illegitimate.
This had to be so because laws concerning bastardy were formed to govern a parent’s legal obligation, not only as far as maintenance, but also right to family name, and inheritance.
I recall the laws of illegitimacy had to be repealed in Jamaica to allow for fairness of treatment to all children as Family Courts were still following the centuries-long laws enshrining the status of children birthed by black women.
(http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20051031/flair/flair3.html)
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I recommend everyone read the article “Baby Mama Drama: Explaining Conservative Deception About Out-of-Wedlock Births in the Black Community,” by Tim Wise, before you shoot Abagond down for this. The Black illegitimacy rate has seriously dropped significantly since the 70’s, the only reason why so many African American children born out of wedlock makes up 72% of the births, is because only 28% of births are being produced by married African American couples.
How does this explain away the hyped problem, do you ask? Because although single Black women have cut back by 1/3 on children, married African American couples have cut back even further, BY OVER 1/2, on how many children they’re having. This causes the 72% number. Other than further improvement in out of wedlock births, the main thing that could change the numbers, is if married African American couples began having more children and stopped cutting back on the amount they’re having.
If married African American couples began popping out 4 or 5 kids again, the percentage of out of wedlock births that make up the total number of births, would be a fraction of what it is now.
@Abagond!!!
Abagond, I strongly suggest you edit your article to include the Tim Wise piece in its entirety, or there is a great risk of people just not quite getting it, and interpreting this as “a cover up” of an issue, to blame it being called out, on “racism,” as opposed to the very real problem of the racist conservative narrative excluding the full context of the number 72%, which, ultimately, makes the 72% a distorted truth, and, therefore, al lie. You could just include the Tim Wise article as a picture large enough to read so it doesn’t exceed your 500 word limit. I highly recommend it. Just type in “Black community 72% out of wedlock Tim Wise,” in google’s search engine, and it should come right up. If you want the link and can’t find it, just tell me and I’ll give it to you.
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^^^
*the very real problem of the racist conservative narrative excluding the full context of the number 72%, which, ultimately, makes the 72% a distorted truth, and, therefore, a lie.
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@Ebonymore:
While I do not doubt the statistics but I bet that poverty is the key in those. I happen to know many out of wedlock children, it is not that big thing over here, who have done fine in their lives as they have grown up.
Also, I know many single parents, men and women, who have done ok in their careers and whose children are doing just fine.
While I do also like the idea of family, large or nuclear, I do not buy the idea that single parents children are doomed at all. It depends on the surroundings and economical justice.
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@Abagond
You seem to be greatly minimizing the issue of black illegitimacy by using these stats. You”re skimming over the crippling disadvantages that each of the black children faces.
Moreover, from reading some of the posts and comments here, it’s as if you and some of your commenters are trying to make the case that blacks are really not doing badly at all compared to whites and other groups, in terms of crime, marriage rates, education, illegitimacy or fatherlessness, etc. If that is the argument you’re attempting to make, then how can you then claim that racism has had the destructive impact on blacks overall that you then claim?
The take away that I suspect most white liberals will get from reading a large slab of your posts and the comments is that blacks may be struggling a tad, but they’re doing almost as well as whites, so blacks have reached the point of overcoming the past. I don’t know whether this is your intent, but this is what can be easily concluded.
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Abagond,
Great post but if I can make a suggestion it would be to add that Black teen pregnancy has dropped 48% since 1990 (faster than the overall rate of 42%) and iirc, it may be at it’s lowest rate in 50 years or since they started measuring it. Check out the Guttmacher Institute info.
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@sam,
Agree. While I’m not discounting the stats ebonymonroe posted and I’d agree that a “nuclear family” is ideal, I’d bet poverty correlates just as strongly as fatherlessness which I find to be a suspect term because it’s not like kids in single parent homes don’t have fathers. It’s more a question of their involvement in their kids life. Also, we have to watch out for the correlation = causation fallacy.
For example, *Children in single-parent families are five times more likely to be poor . Chances are that their parents were poor before they had them but this correlation is appealing because it appeals to the American mythology of a total class mobility when the reality is that most people will stay in the same class they were born in to, in this case, regardless of whether they have kids or not.
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sam
@Ebonymore:
While I do not doubt the statistics but I bet that poverty is the key in those. I happen to know many out of wedlock children, it is not that big thing over here, who have done fine in their lives as they have grown up.
Also, I know many single parents, men and women, who have done ok in their careers and whose children are doing just fine.
While I do also like the idea of family, large or nuclear, I do not buy the idea that single parents children are doomed at all. It depends on the surroundings and economical justice.
…………………………………………..
I appreciate your perspective, however, many of those statistics do not vary according to economic class, but remain quite similar. I too know many single parent families where the children grew to adults and are successful in many areas, but it would just be confirmation bias for me to uphold those examples as nullifiers of the statistics. As far as adoption and the childrearing of children of members of the LBGT community, I am sensitive to the fact that statistics do not cover those circumstances as yet, as far as the traditional “nuclear family unit” being thrust as, in fact, the ideal.
None the less, fundamentally, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one though, sweetheart.
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People with lower intelligence have higher rates of social dysfunction i.e. illegitimacy, poverty, crime, etc. Lower intelligence may be a primary factor of social dysfunction but Illegitimacy still exacerbates the problems. We know this because illegitimate children have even higher rates of social problems than their similarly dimwitted peers.
Welfare also exacerbates the problem. The more welfare a country has the more illegitimacy they’re going to have. That’s why countries with higher rates of welfare tend to have higher rates of illegitimacy than comparable countries. Even in the US, the illegitimacy rate didn’t explode until after the ‘war on poverty’ expanded welfare. That’s why one of the best ways to reduce illegitimacy, poverty, crime, etc is to reduce welfare.
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Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White women, but they do not contend with poverty in ways that exceed many other groups. I remember reading about the fact that there have been considerable recent reformations to the welfare system.
Lower intelligence is often the product of a lack of access to resources, (like education, stable, healthy home environments). Illegitimacy is linked to socially disadvantaged constructs moreso than innate intelligence. Meaning, it is created out of “nurture,” not the “nature” aspect of a human being’s makeup. And social disadvantage is often predominantly predicated on hierarchy in the Western world: structural White supremacy> classism> capitalism > patriarchy. Cyclical Social disadvantage (eg. poverty) is generally a concept that reaches beyond the abstract frame of postmodernism and relativity.
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ebonymonroe
Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White women,
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
Black women are slightly more likely than white women in total numbers. That’s been true for decades. Since there are more than more than 6 times as many whites that means black women are 7 times as likely to be on welfare. Illegitimacy is a major reason because it’s harder to support children on a single income.
Lower intelligence is often the product of a lack of access to resources, (like education, stable, healthy home environments). Illegitimacy is linked to socially disadvantaged constructs moreso than innate intelligence.
Lower intelligence can be the result of a lack of resources. For example, disease and malnutrition can lower intelligence. But those conditions are almost unheard of in the developed world even among the very poor.
I doubt being ‘socially disadvantaged’ has much to do with it. For example, white children whose parents earn less than $10K score higher on tests than black children whose parents earn $80-100K. It would be hard to argue those white children have fewer resources than those black children. That’s not to say illegitimacy isn’t associated with lower outcomes. But innate intelligence is still a more important factor.
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Da Jokah, are you here to reaffirm your beliefs is white supremacy? Are you here to “regulate” these unruly black people? To legitimatize and rationalize violence against p.o.c(especially black people)? To scrutinize and dismiss statics provided by liable sources and post your own and expect everyone to absorb this and hang their heads in shame, because we are the people driving this country and perhaps the entire world, to oblivion? To derail and attack this blog and essentially this author? To defend to “poor,loving,disadvantaged,innocent white people who are being trampled upon”? Are you hear to get these people to see the glory white people, why they are naturally superior in every aspect, and to expose to us inferiors the righteousness of everything white people stand for? To devalue everything another says just because they are black or non-white? And how you are not racist or prejudice?
What you want to see: Wasi’chu are the greatest at everything! So beautiful, so intelligent, so merciful, ect. We don’t deserve wasi’chus love and mercy,but they give it to us anyway…..we are so undeserving. You know wasi’chu made the Earth, right? Wasi’chu are everything good in life and maybe if we’re lucky and bowing low enough, their foot will ever-so-slightly gaze my head. Wasi’chu, we love you!
You aren’t here to give an honest input. You stir up strife among a place for p.o.c, not listening and reading about experiences caused by your people and taking this into account. No, you impose yourself where you are not wanted, make standards that none other than you and your people can obtain, giving yourself the “power” to validate and invalidate things you’ve never experience, giving excuses for the inexcusable. Your people have never changed from the time they set foot on this land and others….There is a freedom of speech, then there is humanity, empathy, and kindness. From your predecessors to now, to your brothers and sisters in race, you are no different.
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@ AJ,
That was well said. VERY well said. They are so condescending. They think they know everything. And they admittedly “rule” the world. So if they rule the world, who can we thank for the polluted, blood drenched, stolen wasteland we are living on? They want to ride the coat tails of everything good, then point the finger at everyone else when the countless bad rears its ugly head. Edom knows no shame. I’m so over these people.
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1. There are numbers for cohabitation:
“Data from a national survey indicate that more than half (58 percent) of all non-marital births in 2006-2010 occurred within cohabiting unions, although there is substantial variation by racial and ethnic group, age, and poverty status. Among Hispanic and white women, 68 percent of all nonmarital births occurred within cohabiting unions, compared with only 35 and 45 percent, respectively, among black and Asian women. (Appendix 2)”
– See more at: http://www.childtrends.org/?indicators=births-to-unmarried-women#sthash.78UlTjUZ.dpuf
Numbers for Hispanic and whites were the same, that’s why they are grouped.
2. Lumping everyone into one pool doesn’t change the statistics, but rather the hypothesis. If the purpose is too compare by race, comparing to the whole population, takes the race factor out of the equation. You don’t calculate the percentage of green apples in apples by taking their percentage by the total number of fruit, because you are calculating the number of green apples out of the total number of fruit. They are two unequivocal numbers. It may diminish the proportion, but doesn’t change the ratio.
I don’t have any numbers for crime so I won’t comment on that. The cdc and government have available these numbers. They are statisticians, the arguments that you have purposed have been evaluated and taken into account before any assessment has been made and are discussed in the actual scientific papers.
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@ Jayis
The illegitimacy rate is not a particularly useful number for the reasons given in the post. Further, Whites use it in a racist, self-serving way. It does more harm than good. But that hardly means I think it is a good idea for women to have children out of wedlock! Or that fatherlessness is not a serious issue.
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@Jefe – The only way to fight lies is with the truth. In this case, the truth is the numbers.
In the 1990’s and even into the early 2000’s you would often hear people spouting, as if it were truth, this phrase: “There are more black men in jail than in college.” I heard it on news shows, in church, quoted as fact among friends in gatherings.
So someone actually went and got the numbers. And it turned out that despite the prison industrial complex and “The New Jim Crow”, it was not true. They made a video that debunked this “fact” and several others false quotes about black men.
It was powerful and I haven’t heard that false statistic quoted in a long time.
That being said, it was disheartening to read this from you: “Yet, you go and manipulate the statistics to disprove the argument. It also makes your argument just as weak as the ones you are trying to disprove.”
Truth is the most powerful argument. Truth is not rhetoric or numbers to manipulated. The people who use the numbers to prove their lies are the “manipulators.” Exposing lies using truth is not manipulation and certainly does not come from a position of weakness unless you are determined to believe the lies and don’t believe the truth.
To see Abagond’s position as weak says more about the perceptions of those reading his words and refusing to believe the true charts or statistics. It says a lot about how all of us internalize the “truths” we’ve heard so long and are slow to change those perceptions even in light of unremitting evidence. That all source of facts must be “manipulation”.
I also find it very telling that you respond to Abagond’s numbers and hard facts with an abstract solution. That we should “focus on what to do about it”, to which I can only ask, “Do about what?” Your call to action is yet another empty trope which demands that black people en masse respond to a “problem” they are seen as creating.
You completely gloss over the “fact” of what Abagond is saying: that these so-called “problems” are only seen as “problems” because everything black people do is seen is a “problem.” There is no need for a collective black response to an imaginary problem, even if such a thing were possible.
These issues aren’t related to the specific moral failings of black people – they are simply the black community reflecting the wider trends of the modern world. Behaving like any and all human beings on the planet.
Your response leaves us stuck with the stereotypes and begs us to do something about a “problem” which only exists in the minds of people who wish to disparage black people and makes all our behavior suspect and foreign.
It’s only when you compare us, by the numbers, to the rest of the world, that you see people just aren’t getting married as much as they used to and don’t see marriage as a precursor to having children. But when it comes to black people this is seen as a moral failure, rather than just the overall participation in a global society that isn’t marriage-minded.
I wasn’t able to find the video that I referenced, but I was able to find a trailer for the documentary “Hoodwinked” that does just as good a job as illustrating what I, and Abagond, are talking about
That lies are the position of weakness. Abagond’s post is a bastion of strength backed by truth, in comparison.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QpeEEbp3cA)
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Aj
Abagond’s formula is simple. He looks for a “gap” whether it be academic achievement, income, incarceration, illegitimacy, etc. Then he writes a post claiming it’s the result of discrimination. Or that it’s only a problem because “racists” see it as a problem. He intersperses such posts with something inflammatory about slavery or blacks being shot under supposedly suspicious circumstances.
My formula is simple. I look at the gap and provide evidence that either it doesn’t exist or that there are natural causes having nothing to do with discrimination. Or I look at his posts on supposedly controversial shootings and realize the only reason they were controversial is because there wasn’t sufficient evidence to warrant his preferred outcome of an arrest/conviction. Or I look at his posts that single out whites and ask why it’s only a problem when whites do something and why he ignores or minimizes others doing the same.
His followers’ formula is simple. They read his posts and usually say something like, “Look how they do! They’re evil! They going to get theirs!” Anyone who disagrees is called a “racist troll” or accused of trying to “deflect”. Or in your case, claiming that I’m trying to feel superior by putting others down.
So my question to you is this — how do you think I should respond to false claims of discrimination and cherry-picked version of history, etc? And am I really trying to put others down or merely defending against false charges and propaganda?
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@ThatDeborahGirl
Thank you for your viewpoint. I also applaud your support for Abagond’s argument as I do also. Thank you also for sharing your youtube link.
Let me make a couple remarks.
First of all, I did my graduate study on applied mathematical modelling and worked as an applied statistician and actuary for over 20 years. I have always loved numbers since I was a child and played with them for fun. At the same time, I am also sensitive and skeptical on how people use numbers and stats. I was the statistician for a large New York City public hospital and many times, I was asked to find a way to use the statistics to demonstrate points that management wanted to promote to achieve certain goals (eg, increasing revenue). While doing actuarial work, I was asked to manipulate statistical assumptions to achieve client goals (to reduce write-offs or possibly rip off pension plan members).
Now a caveat.
I made the initial remark before I read the link to Tim Wise’s article. I have now read it.
I did not say that I disagreed with the main idea for Abagond’s argument. I agree the Black illegitimacy argument is a fallacy. My point was that his use of numbers and graphs to counteract the argument looked about as unconvincing as the way the other side uses them. It looked like he was manipulating them to support his argument. So, it impressed me as a bit weak.
After reading the Tim Wise article, I felt that Wise’s argument was much clearer. He focused on how “conservatives” manipulate the statistics so that they can support their argument, and they do it in a fallacious, misleading manner. His argument was very clear and convincing. He did not try to re-manipulate the statistics to prove another point. When I first read Abagond’s post, it seemed like he was doing that.
So, it is not the “facts” that I had a problem with, but the way they were presented. If Abagond had focused on showing how the Black illegitimacy arguments were misusing statistics similar to what Tim Wise did, I would have found the argument stronger and would have been more easily convinced. What he did, however, was reconfigure the statistics to make a different point. That was less convincing and appeared weak to me. It looked like he was doing something with the statistics similar to what the Black illegitimacy arguers do.
I am all for tearing down the use of statistics for spurious arguments. That is what Wise did. He did a better job of supporting the counterargument. I am not so much in favor of reconfiguring them to make another argument which is not really that much more convincing. So, it appeared weak to me (and it still does).
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LOL @ Da Jokah,
I see our resident joker is at it again.
Ebonymonroe posts the following true statement: “Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White women,”
Da Jokah ignores it and tries to spin it as follows:
“Black women are slightly more likely than white women in total numbers. That’s been true for decades. Since there are more than more than 6 times as many whites that means black women are 7 times as likely to be on welfare.”
He tries to spin the reality (the actual biggest benefactors) to slightly more likely as if we’re supposed to pretend that who’s “more likely” is more important than who is. The rest of the usual bait about low intelligence and whatnot was funny as well.
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I think Black illegitimacy is another argument White AmeriKlan uses to justify their racism and why they think Blacks are lazy.
@ks, DeborahGirl
White women are the biggest beneficiaries of welfare and Affirmative Action yet it is us Black women are called welfare queens and baby mamas. To me, that is a double standard.
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Jefe – So in other words, Abagond appears weak for actually parsing the numbers to support his argument, and showing different ways to interpret the data. Whereas Tim Wise seems more credible for merely pointing out the obvious: That racists actually manipulate statistics to prove their lies and stereotypes?
Then you go on to say you have a graduate degree as a statistician and that “you have always enjoyed numbers” and yet you have a complete lack of interest in Abagond’s new models because even bothering to do this is, in your opinion “weak”.
I have a head cold today but your reasoning seems backwards even in my Robitussin-induced state. With the background you claim, it seems you would be doubly interested in how the more truthful statistics play out and the differences in how the data was “manipulated” for each claim.
It also seems that you would be more interested in actual numerical facts rather than an emotional appeal regardless of how it was presented, but hey, if it’s more palatable coming to you from the white guy, so be it.
Furthermore, I could accept your argument that you’re just a “numbers guy” and take issue with how the data was presented so “weakly” if it hadn’t been for your initial assertion- which I addressed, but you didn’t – that the onus is on black people to just fix the problems white people insist that we have and not worry our darkie wooly heads over the actual figures that prove they’re pulling all of this out of their collective white asses.
The charts may be the background that you wish everyone to ignore – but to me they are pillars of strength in Abagond’s overall argument that <a href="https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/there-is-absolutely-nothing-wrong-with-being-black/"There Is Nothing Wrong With Being Black – despite how much numerical evidence white people present to the contrary.
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Da Jokah
ebonymonroe
Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White women,
http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
Black women are slightly more likely than white women in total numbers. That’s been true for decades. Since there are more than more than 6 times as many whites that means black women are 7 times as likely to be on welfare. Illegitimacy is a major reason because it’s harder to support children on a single income.
Lower intelligence is often the product of a lack of access to resources, (like education, stable, healthy home environments). Illegitimacy is linked to socially disadvantaged constructs moreso than innate intelligence.
Lower intelligence can be the result of a lack of resources. For example, disease and malnutrition can lower intelligence. But those conditions are almost unheard of in the developed world even among the very poor.
I doubt being ‘socially disadvantaged’ has much to do with it. For example, white children whose parents earn less than $10K score higher on tests than black children whose parents earn $80-100K. It would be hard to argue those white children have fewer resources than those black children. That’s not to say illegitimacy isn’t associated with lower outcomes. But innate intelligence is still a more important factor.
……………………………………………….
My personal position is not that intelligence does not play a pivotal role in the likelihood of one having illegitimate children, as it goes without saying that being equipt with knowledge, the ability to critically think, and skills for life, are all utilities that will lend to better decision making. But rather, that there is the component of social constructs at play in the development of intelligence that precede one’s level of intellect. Therefore, it’s not innate, but a natured state. There is no significant difference between the intelligence of young Black and White children, the changes occur thereafter. There is also no difference between Black and White adopted children of Black parents, and there is no difference between Black and White adopted children of White parents. This fact provides too much evidentiary support for intelligence being the result of nurture rather than nature.
Then there’s the various factors of socialization.
How much stigma surrounds illegitimate children from culture to culture? In education, what is valued from culture to culture? What is held in highest regard from culture to culture? Is it music and athletics? Is it academia?
Studies have shown Asians have significantly higher IQ’s to that of White students, but, how much precedence is given to academia in Asian culture in comparison to White culture? I remember coming across a group of East Asian young adults a few years ago. I was in awe upon discovering that they would each get up at three in the morning to study before school. But this was normalcy for this particular neighborhood of students from the Asian community. I remember reading a report not too long ago which reported the findings that African students have been making greater achievements in academic to that of Asian students in recent times, but this could be due to the importance that is often placed on academic achievement by parents of first generation American, African students, in their culture.
And then there’s the element of the experience of education. What is the quality of education at Black schools in predominantly Black neighbourhoods? How many are placed in the working class and how many are placed in the upper middle class and upper classes? What is the experience of Black students in predominantly White schools and mixed school environments?
The example that you gave, once again, begs the question of the variables. In regards to African American parents in high socioeconomic standing, for how many generations have the African American parents been in that socioeconomic class? If the students are living in affluent neighbourhoods, are they one of the few African American students in school, etc, etc.
Then there’s health and nutrition. In how many ways does the African American diet vary to the Standard American diet? Though in general, America is contending with obesity, African Americans are at the forefront of the epidemic.
We are all born with the same 7 pillars of thought
1. Intrapersonal
2. Interpersonal
3. Linguistic
4. Logical/Mathematical
5. Kinesthetic
6. Musical
7. Visual spatial
Not one single individual has the same order and prominence, from pillar one, to seven. Meaning, our sequence of processing, is entirely unique from person to person. We all have the same capacity to store knowledge in any given situation, just in a different sequence of digestion, from individual to individual. This, we do know, is innate. As for actually storing knowledge, this is nurture.
And then we have the emotional component of cyclical single parent households. For example, girls who are raised by a single parent mother without a father in the home, are much more likely to seek out male attention and engage in adolescent sexual activity, and as a result are more likely to become teenage mothers.
There’s the emotional component, the nurturing aspects at play, and at that point, (nurture), there’s far too many variables of social construction in nurturing to sift through.
Clip from article.
Myth about welfare: Welfare benefits go to minority women who never leave the dole.
THE FACT IS, MORE WHITES RECEIVE aid than blacks or Hispanics. Two out of three welfare recipients are children, not adults. And contrary to the stereotype of families forever dependent, nearly three out of four women receiving aid get off welfare within two years.
“The white women are invisible,” says Nancy Lyman-Shaver, a former welfare mother who now runs a criminal-justice program for ARISE, a social welfare organization in Springfield, Massachusetts.
“They are the daughters and nieces of middle-class, suburban families who end up on welfare because of a divorce or an abusive partner.
“Every family I know has someone receiving AFDC, but no one likes to talk about it.”
As far as welfare, if you bring the population of White Americans down to the African American population, I would not be surprised if African Americans were more likely to end up on welfare, if this is true. Yet, how do we combat that without taking into account the race and wage gap, or that affirmative action has, statistically, benefitted White women more than any other minority group, while African American job applicants, with the same qualifications are still far less likely to be selected than their White peers? Partly, as a result, (the last time I checked), 50% of African Americans are living below the poverty line. What about “the war on drugs,” which has resulted in the industrial scale incarceration of African American men (and now women), where they are, statistically, spending a disproportionate amount of jail time in comparison to White male/female murderers, White male pedophiles and White female convicts serving time for violent crimes? How much of an impact does occupational, judicial, and sheer economics play in African American families?
Abagond’s not lying about the distortion of out of wedlock births in the African American community.
http://www.timwise.org/2013/08/baby-mama-drama-explaining-conservative-deception-about-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-black-community/
The problem for these things, is context, and once you distort the truth it becomes a lie. The frequency of distortion as it pertains to a community, will lead one to question whether or not the motive is founded on a prejudice. You know, that “r word” that floats around.
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Blacks do make up a smaller percentage of the population in America however lets not sugarcoat and twist things ok. .. Learn to do math people. I used to work for the Social Services department and I hate to tell you, but as a black woman myself, I saw a much higher percentage of black fathers missing from the home. We saw much lower percentage of West Indian American fathers mia, and maybe one or two Affricans FROM. Africa, who came through our very large office building to recieve Food Stamps, Welfare program assistance. . Asians made up the lowest percent wise of unmarried mothers. The stats aren’t lying. Black people in America simply aren’t getting married like they used to. You can even look around your own neighborhood and witness how many black males are walkng around with their pants on the ground looking foolish. I was divorced, had a baby was left by two men who swore up and down I was the only woman they loved. So yes I do agree that the politicians do make it seem as though, black American women are ALL irresponsible and tha black men don’t divorce and are irresponsible. I was divorced. One of my exes was a full blown gay man, on the down low behind my back, and the other one lied to me about being a married man. It seemed my relationships with white men are much, much better, it seems that white men look for wives and many of them are pretty straight forward about what they want and need. They never have a problem with my skin color, nor do they judge my hair, face weight or make up the way most black men do. I can’t agree with this article. . So after dealing with black men, and being abandoned by black men, I went to white men. I am much happier. This may sound ignorant to you, but it seems most black men just want the “baddest bish” not a wife so much? I can safely say, MOST white men don’t want to marry black women, however those that are not racist usually want to a wife of some type.However, I am black, but I attract white males more than any other group. So I do have a lot of experience with both black and white men. I grew up in a home with two loving parents, who were best friends, my father wasn’t egotistical or arrogant like black men tend to be. Black men don’t stick around too often I kniw that I was abandoned and I see nothing wrong with me. But to me, black men don’t know who they are or what they want, unless approached by a white or non black woman. I didn’t plan to be a single mom years ago, while raising my daughter and son, but I ended up one anyway, called all kinds of racist names from black men for no reason? They acted like I did something to them? other than that they were arrogant men. I get a long much better with non black men, they are much more truthful, kind and honest, I never get how my white girlfriends date black men, they swear they can’t stand? Give them woes. I see the black men treating white women like dirt every day..I just don’t believe 89% of black men are marriage material, and are usually out to psychologically harm black women in general. I didn’t grow up in the ghetto. I grew up in Park Slope Brooklyn around Drs Lawyers. I never even realized how bad black men were as a group until I started giving some a chance to be with me. I am not saying I am all thst, or some model, but I am good looking and didn’t deserve or look for thug types. I was not interested in meeting any like that. But a lot of grown black men, are sociopaths, whether they are educated or from the ghetto. I learned that real fast.
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Da Jokah,no one is making you come here
Propaganda? So you completely and utterly ignoring mainstream media, nationally and internationally. Its white centered and you can’t deny that. Nothing concerns your people unless it effects you and/or can be manipulated to enforce your power and progress your agenda. History books across America that required curriculum books are exclusive,biased, and some cases, flat out wrong. abagond brings up history much forgotten,no, erased and I find what, he or she does, informative and highly interesting. And all these things you say against abagond, as others would know more than I(and I’ve seen plenty) is a deflection of your behaviors onto abagond. Defending? You’re derailing, simple as that.
A thing I’ve noticed a alarming thing among wasi’chu, is that you see yourselves as heroes when you are villains,
noble knights when you are evil lords,
,liberators when you are the oppressors
and victims when you are the perpetrators.
You as part of the privileged group have no right nor leverage into what is and is not racist. I’m sure abagond has addressed this but, racism is more words and a mindset, it is a structure that is meant to keep your people in power. So naturally, anything that threatens that must be silenced and dismissed by any means. And dismissing others as pulling the “victim/race card”, is beyond words. People disagree on this blog,true,,but what you and others have said is no mere disagreeing, its belligerence.
And after seeing your other comments, I’ll have to say yes to ego-boosting. You come this blog to learn nothing, except to prove your “points”. That petty “You’re wrong, I’m white and right.” is nothing unexpected, its just how feverishly you comment on this blog is concerning…
And leave black people alone,you can’t share blame with those who’ve done nothing and/or don’t benefit from what your people plotted and enacted, wasi’chu created loop-holes so that my peoples territories are not respected and never belonging to us to this very day(Some of us, really many of us, believe in land ownership,but not resource ownership, we give what can,but not to be taken advantage of) wasi’chu used p.o.c communities to dump toxic waste and build nuclear facilities so that they don’t have deal with the consequences, wasi’chu experiment on us because we’re viewed as barely human, if that and without a doubt, expendable. Wasi’chu have played Judas throughout centuries without consequence. And the list goes….When you hear p.o.c vent their frustration, this not to you to belittle them, complain about, or invalidate. That is why you all are the problem and why nothing has changed. Because of that simple yet overwhelmingly destructive mindset.
Wasichu, you need to evaluate your words and actions,but if you don’t, no one expects any better.
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@colalover
I’m sorry to hear of the bad experiences you’ve had, but they simply aren’t a reflection of all Black men, nor is the neighbourhood you used to work in a reflection of the entire Black community. Statistically, Black men spend the largest amount of time with their children out of all male groups, and 75% of Black women are married by 35, mostly, to Black men. Along with this, the Black community illegitimacy rate has dropped by 1/3 since the 70’s. I have nothing against Black women marrying out, nothing at all, but it is erroneous to state “all,” or “most Black men, are x, y, z.”
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colalover,
Forgive me, but I suspect that your reply sounds suspicious.
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This is what is known as “cherry picking.” You are taking the numbers you like, and adding context where it suits you.
Kids without fathers are more likely to drop out of school, join a gang, have substance abuse problems, be unemployed, homeless, in jail, and have just about every other social problem you can think of. It’s a sociological fact.
Overall crime has gone down because the birth rate has gone down (meaning less youth) and because crime prevention is more effective. But kids born without fathers are still more likely to be involved in crime than kids with fathers that live in the household.
Almost three quarters of black kids in America are born without a father. That is an outstanding statistic anyway you spin it.
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@Jimmy
Although I agree with the importance of children having a father in the home, and am personally a supporter of children not being born out of wedlock, I strongly suggest you read the link in my last post regarding the “72% out of wedlock in the Black community” fallacy, by Tim Wise, before you go there in regards to the African American community.
See @Abagond
I told you you need to include a picture of that Tim Wise article. People are going to read this and not come away with how the distortion of the context essentially makes the 72% a hyped peripheral lie. They’ll just keep saying you’re making excuses and cherry picking, bruh.
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^^^ (post to “Da Jokah”)
*But rather, that there’s the component of social construct at play in the development of intelligence that precedes one’s level of intellect. Therefore, it’s not innate, but a nurtured state
*African students have been making greater achievements in academics
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rofl. colalover, smh girl u need to stop drinking that stuff don’t u know what’s in that drink. By reading ur comment I can’t help but wonder if they are still putting cocaine in the soda.
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The biggest false assumption that I see here is that kids are being raised without fathers because their mothers aren’t married. That doesn’t take into count the fact that people cohabiitate without being married. It doesn’t take into account various custody or parent sharing agreements that may be reached without marriage.
I’m thinking of a friend of mine who has three children by the same woman. They lived together once upon a time but now they do not live together and have never been married. I don’t know why. But he takes excellent care of his children, deals with their day to day issues – clothes, school, transportation, discipline.
I think it’s just easy to say – well, the woman’s not married the father must not be around. But I think this issue is far more nuanced than that.
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@ThatDeborahGirl
No, that is not the interpretation.
Tim wise selected one of the statements made about the black illegitimacy rates and explained why one can get by with making the statement, but why it is completely misleading. He tore it apart and he did not do it by pointing out the obvious. In fact, he pointed out why it was not obvious. He made his argument without us having to wonder about the source or validity of the data. It stands on its own merits without bringing in any additional data from unknown sources.
Abagond did not parse the numbers to support his argument. For example, in his point no. 2
Actually, his graphs do not really “prove” whether illegitimacy does or does not cause poverty and crime, whether in a small or big way. The only thing that we can surmise from the graphs is that it appears not to be correlated. However, even this is a bit shaky as the data for the graphs come from different sources (or from unknown sources).
In fact, it is possible that, although poverty and crime do not appear to be correlated with illegitimacy, they could still be in fact, highly correlated, other things held constant. The factors that caused poverty to drop might be merely great enough to overcompensate for the factor of rising illegitimacy. We cannot know the actual story from the data presented.
What Abagond has done, however, has presented ideas indicating that there may be something fallacious about the Black illegitimacy argument (which is good). The Black illegitimacy argument is probably a hypothesis made up out of thin air and the supporters are desperate to find statistics to support it. However, nothing Abagond presented really tears it apart. What Tim Wise did, however, does tear apart at least one of the falsely presented statistics.
So, I see it as the reverse of how you interpreted it. Abagond stated the obvious (ie, the illegitimacy argument is fallacious), but Tim Wise explained exactly how one of the particular arguments is developed fallaciously from actual data (which is not so obvious).
(This is my opinion, not a court of statistical opinion. If Abagond’s argument was rigourous enough for you, then that is fine. But from someone who has had to glean insight from statistics as part of my job,Wise’s argument seemed a bit more “elegant”.
Abagond has done a good job in outlining a few counterhypotheses and some data which seem to suggest that the counterhypotheses might offer an explanation and I applaud him for it. But we need really rigourous data crunching to bear that out.
No, not at all. I think that the background should not be ignored, but studied in greater depth with independent verification. I actually believe the alternate hypotheses that are suggested. Wishing everyone to ignore it is the last thing I would want.
That was never ever my assertion. If you have ever read my position you would know I never think that. I think it is completely ridiculous that white people insist that blacks have self-inflicted pathologies like illegitimacy which are keeping them down. And I do think we all have to worry about spurious use of statistics. I have even been forced to do it myself in the past.
I basically agree with Abagond’s post. I don’t see why we need to be arguing about matters other than what I brought up.
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Also people have not recognized how marriages or unions can be arranged between a man and a woman.
Many Black people follow different traditions where the man and the woman together have only been recognized by the people that matter most in their communities–meaning they chose not to record it in the courts for their privacy and safety.
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Having a father is one thing, having a good father is another. And I’d rather kids had no fathers present at all then having a lazy/drunk, racist, or abusive one at home to raise their kids to be lazy/drunk, racist or abusive people.
Many kids without fathers present on a daily basis have good fathers whom they visit on weekends, or have good grandfathers, uncles, cousins, mentors, etc. from whom they learn and get that same fatherly love and attention.
Many single-mom children, including Barack Obama, turned out just fine.
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@resw77, Yep, that is another reason why the reasoning process is fallacious from the start.
It is as if they assume that illegitimacy is the problem to begin with, then find statistics to label it a black problem.
How big a problem is illegitimacy in the first place? It seems like it is already the norm in Scandanavia, an area of the world touted as having the best quality of life.
But I do think that Barack Obama did have some problems in his single parent household. My university schoolmate that went to high school with him described him as a pothead.
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@ jefe
Being a pothead (or allegedly cokehead) was obviously not an obstacle for Obama, considering he went on to complete high school, college, law school, and became Illinois Senator, law school professor, US Senator and US President, and raised 2 daughters in a two-parent home. Plus pot use is only slightly more prevalent in single-mom households than those where the father is present.
If illegitimacy inherently led to increased drug use, however, then we would see a rise in teen drug use in Iceland (which has seen a rise in illegitimacy), but instead we have seen decline for the last decade.
It’s not really illegitimacy that’s the problem, it’s bad parenting in general.
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jefe:
Fatherlessness and other familial pathologies are generally regarded as having significant, adverse personal and societal impacts. In America, the illegitimacy rate appears to be a reasonable and measurable proxy for these.
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@phoebeprunelle
You bring up a very interesting point. It actually made me think of Mormon marriages in the temple. I am not sure how many or if any of them go on record in legal systems, but the private unions are ones that happen and not often time recognized in number calculations.
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Which post did the map in the banner come from?
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To Ebonymore:
Partly, as a result, (the last time I checked), 50% of African Americans are living below the poverty line.
Not it’s half that and I don’t think the poverty rate for Black Americans has been 50% in my lifetime.
http://blackdemographics.com/households/poverty/
Click to access acsbr11-17.pdf
FWIW, the median income for Black Americans is about the same as the median income for Sweden.
There are twice as many white Americans below the poverty (since there are a little over 5 times as many whites as blacks..) than black Americans.
Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White
Not for at least a decade:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/resource/character/fy2010/fy2010-chap10-ys-final
That said, It should be noted in the chart above that percentage of black people in the US dependent on welfare is declining in the face of weaker economy, falling by 17.5% since 2000. Whether this is due to actual lower numbers among black Americans or whether whites and Latinos are getting on welfare at higher levels is unclear, possibly both.
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It is already difficult to attribute sociological effects to the phenomenon of illegitimacy. It is going to be impossible to compare the sociological effects of illegitimacy (the phenomenon of which at least can be measured more or less) to bad parenting (which cannot).
I think the Black Illegitimacy argument is weak either way due to the weak science involved. Just using illegitimacy as a proxy for all sorts of social ills is not a very strong argument to begin with as its effects are already confounded with so many other variables which seem to be more important and impact people much more. The motivation for using the illegitimacy argument must be more political than anything.
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Jefe”
A quick google survey suggests that there are persistent correlations between illegitimacy (used as a measurable proxy for poorly functioning families) and crime, poverty, and other undesirable outcomes.
Perhaps this is an inconvenient truth for those who wish it were otherwise.
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@colalover,
You claim white men accept black women’s skin color and hair type and that is generally FALSE. Most are racist and feel the opposite about black women in general than you claim. In fact, most tend to want to demonize and marginalize black women and most are haters.
You had a bad experience or two but everywhere I look I see Black couples thriving, married or just in long-term relationships.
Many white and hispanic women have been left or cheated on but I wonder if they so freely dog out the entire race that particular man belonged to.
I’m sorry about your bad experiences but I just can’t agree with you. I could see if maybe you recommended Latino but White men in general are anti-black so it’s foolish to recommend Black women look forward to being in a relationship with one.
White men cheat, lie, and mislead women just like all men do.
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@Randy, my 2nd paragraph suggested that it is not a good proxy, even if it is somewhat measurable. Seizing on illegitimacy as a proxy for dysfunctional family must have other motivations (eg, political) other than the “math”. Otherwise, why not focus on other “proxies” such as alcoholism or ill health or educational attainment. And all of us know kids born out of wedlock which grow up to be fine. Why is illegitimacy such a good proxy for non-functioning family?
Illegitimacy is actually not easy to define either. What do we call the children of gay couples?
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@ Randy
High-five! “Inconvenient truth”! “Correlation”! ‘Cause we all know Correlation Is Cause! Wow! And, OMG, “measurable proxy”! *swoon* Is there like a website or a book or a course you can take? Was it an appendix in “The Bell Curve”? Did your parents send you to a Heritage Foundation summer camp instead of space camp? Must have sucked.
Is there a measurable proxy for white racism? Does that have any persistent correlations with undesirable outcomes? Or is that truth inconvenient?
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“Illegitimacy has been rising across the West. In France and Sweden, for example, most children are no longer born to married women. That is a sea change in Western society that goes way beyond Black America.”
It’s a false statement to say that children are no longer born to married women. These women live with & are raising their children with the men who fathered them. They are not married, but they also not parenting alone. French & Swiss women are not functioning as single parents.
You should not print misinformation to make your point.
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@ Temple
What did I say that is untrue? According to the OECD it is a fact that most of them are born to unmarried women. Of course I know that “unmarried” does not tell you much – that is the very point I tried to make in #4.
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@ Randy
In the case of Black Americans I doubt that illegitimacy is the heart of the matter. The White American illegitimacy rate is now at the same level as the Black rate of the 1960s, yet White crime and poverty is way below that of Blacks back then.
If American society were as perfect as you seem to imagine, then stuff like illegitimacy might be decisive. As it is, there are apparently much bigger things at play.
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@ Randy
It is like this: I am driving down the road and a Mac truck plows into me. I lose both my legs. The truck driver says it is my fault because I was not wearing my seat belt.
I used to believe him. Generally speaking, people I knew who wore seat belts had better outcomes. But then I noticed something else: that not wearing a seat belt was never the cause of an accident. People who wore them all the time got in accidents just as much. Some even died.
Should I have been wearing my seat belt? Of course. Did it cause the accident? No way. It is just a cheap excuse the truck driver tells himself to avoid facing up to the consequences of his actions.
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@Temple, indeed, at no point did anyone say that born out of wedlock means raised by single mom. A birth can be illegitimate yet be raised by both parents. That does not change the fact that technically the birth was to an unmarried mom.
–> In fact, you raised one of the fallacies of using illegitimacy as a proxy for dysfunctional family.
@Abagond,
I think your example will be lost on the people you are addressing.
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@Abagond
Nah, he went to space camp too. Because that is where they had all the “non-American” kids dress up as alien space invaders so that the others can shoot them down and protect the world.
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Abagond:
Say you will about Charles Murray but at least he is consistent with his beliefs. His latest book focuses on the rising illegitimacy among whites. He tries to make the case that illegitimacy (among other ills..) has become a lower class white pathology.
Here are two comments I made about illegitimacy in 2011:
The first comment is a bit muddled.. I’ll rephrase/rewrite it:
I would bet that out of wedlock births in the US are more of a symptom than a cause of problems. I am sure everyone knows a woman who had a child or children out of wedlock but the children had plenty of input from adults. (including the biological father..) Globally out of wedlock births are increasing almost everywhere.In Sweden the roughly 50% out of wedlock birthrate has has supposedly little negative effect. (as a male who had only once a month contact with his father after my eighth birthday I would question that…although if the father is around as much as he would have been with a marriage certificate I can see it working) Old social norms are being disassembled. sometimes reasonable (or better) replacements are put in place… sometimes not.
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@ Uncle Milton
Murray’s position is close to that of Da Jokah’s: Blacks on average lack the intelligence to make good decisions in life, which leads to illegitimacy and all the rest. Since their lack of intelligence is mainly genetic, there is little that can be done. Even adopting them out to middle-class Whites will not save them. That, rather than racism, is the root of their troubles.
Where he is consistent is in recognizing that the same fate will befall Whites whose IQs are like those of Blacks. He thinks that American society is so meritocratic that the genetic cream and sludge even among Whites are separating out, creating a White underclass.
Gertrude Himmelfarb, one of my sources, is also consistent. But she is a moralist rather than a scientific racist. She is horrified that the White illegitimacy rate has reached Moynihan-like levels. To her that is as much of a crisis for Whites as it was for Blacks in the 1960s. If the American right as a whole was sincere and unracist in their Black illegitimacy argument, this is what you would expect them to say. But instead they pretty much give Whites a pass.
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Reblogged this on Aisle C.
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Abagond:
Hahaha. I wasn’t attempting a provable claim here, rather just offering a bit of an a priori argument. It’s certainly fair to question the empirical basis of such a claim, though I’d argue that plenty is available.
Abagond:
I’ve long maintained that illegitimacy is a massive societal problem regardless of color. It’s a logical layup to imagine that communities with more of it suffer more because of it.
The “crime is lower now” argument isn’t effective here, because there are broader explanations for it such as better policing, readily available abortions, and even the phasing out of lead additives to gasoline.
Abagond:
It’s hard to imagine how single parenthood wouldn’t be a decisive factor in terms of personal and community success. Yes, that’s an “appeal to obviousness” for which citations have not been provided, but some things are prima facie obvious.
Abagond:
Several problems with this argument:
– You’re confusing “blame” with “accountability”. However you got here, here you are. What’s your trajectory now?
– A careless driver hit your grandmother’s car and she lost her legs, so now you give a pass to those who don’t wear a seatbelt? That doesn’t make sense.
– Racism was clearly worse in the past, and yet measurements of social dysfunction appear to be less then. The trend lines appear to be diverging instead of converging. How is that possible?
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I’m not lost at all. I see that what this post is about is proving that illegitimate births occur among other groups. But the more crucial issue is that many children who grow up in single parent homes–quite different from two parent homes where the parents are not married–are at a disadvantage.
So will proving the point that everyone has illegitimate births stop many of the children born to single mothers in the U.S. from living in poverty?
If the point is to prove that everyone else does it too, you win.
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I see what you’re saying. I just would like to add that I find white males were more truthful with me. Yes sure, I know white men can be dogs. But when they deal with a black woman, I found that I was usually treated with more respect and they would support me and my dreams. I haven’t met too many leaders in the black race. The men are pretty cruel and all they care about is if my hair is pressed and if I “look” like Barbie or Beyonce. I was told I had “nappy hair” by my second child’s father. I was told I was fat. I am not fat. I am not skinny but not fat and I work out have great skin and nice eyes. I never hear that from white men. The white males compliment me, I talk about space, and science with white men and I felt they really respect my mind.I had this P.R. Man once and I talked about those science things with him, shared my love of horror films, and my nerdy stuff with him and he looked at me like Imwas simply mad! So when you mention Hispanic men I am half Latin but I look closer to bkack, yes i had my fair share of Hispanic men and disliked them much more than black men as mates. As for white men, they seem to be pleasers, And you know what they will do ANYTHING sexy in bed! I guess people don’t want to hear it. But after my childrens fathers abandoned me, I looked around and many white men wanted to marry me. I was crying on a white mans shoulder one day. He was younger than me. I was just kicked out while I was pregnant with my ex black mans child! He did it for no reason, called me ugly, which I am not. Even though he dated less attractive women. Well I was crying on this white guys shoulder. He was so nice. I told him I couldn’t believe it! I was completely shattered and broken. But I just don’t know? I mean Imdo think white men can be awful with their racism, but I am seeing less and less that are truly racist. They may be as curious about me as I was about them. I just know I feel more love with a white man…like he really loves me sincerely. I have had very sweet black men, but not enough who liked me back. I saw that the white population was much larger and there are way more available husband worthy white men, than there are black men. And look bkack men are finding white women and I got no problem with that. But honestly, white men have very good love making skills in comparison. They are a little more freaky and I think,I like that? When I am “weird” with black ir Latin men they trip. Plus black nen always look at you funny if you hate Jesus. And I seriously hate Jesus talk. I guess deep inside I knew I woukd spend my life with a Viking King ir Vanilla Prince, i dunno they are really great. And I had many to choose from. In fact Imran into more unsuitable black men, than I ran into racist white men. I just like variety and choices, I was very well recieved years ago by white men in Turkey. Marriage proposals all over the place. But I may be different because I love marriage, I was never a woman who liked being less than a wife.
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Alicia I get many compliments from white me. on my skin color. It is dark not light.I am not light like a gardenia flower. Black men call my thick 3c hair nappy? White guys call them “curls” Maybe it’s because most white men hate white women ? . Some of us watch too much tv and we believe all white men hate black women. No they just want us to like them back and they think we love only black men because they think black guys have bigger penis.Alot of white men are intimidated at the fact that black women brag about black men’s penis size. They wonder if they can measure up. All I know is many, many white guys like black women. Especially if you are healthy and pretty as well. If you are smart and help them, usually they take you as a wife. It’s true. I have experienced it first hand. Black men just seem to want Beyonce shaped women or a white woman with big boobies, that is ok, but they don’t care about ” wife skills” coming with that package. Most black men act like you have to constantly pass their test?And if you are “different” in anynway, you don’t pass.
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@colalover
I understand where you are coming from and as hard as it is for some to accept it….those type of black men are out there. You have dogs in every group, but women need to stop convincing themselves that they can’t find love in another group simply because of skin color or whatever other reasons people come up with.
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rofl. well if that did happen that sucks, but not all black men are like that. There are some idiots but there are also amazing ones, sure sometimes they are hard to find but when u do find them they are taken and if u lucky they are single. But its weird to me when people say oh this race is better or this race of man/woman is better in bed. Really unless you’ve slept with enough people there is no way you could know that. What’s next a study for who is better in bed. smh. U know I guess white men would be freakier than black men, idk but u would have to be really freaky to let ur wife get a train ran on her and go and clean up. I don’t hear about black males being that freaky so good luck.
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I guess you think I am high because you look down on yourself? Maybe you have been brainwashed to believe that your own black traits will never be as good as a blonde blue eye person? Or maybe you don’t think there are white guys who appreciate different women? And if you are white, then you are just a racist. You don’t get out much and I see nothing funny about the rate in which black men are abandoning black kids or how they mistreat their wives or girlfriends. No matter what you say, ir any one tries to sugar coat black men are rarely held accountable for being sociopaths. It is true, sure there are bad white men, but like I said black men are least likely to graduate college, least likely to become suitable husbands and fathers. No one is talking about that tiny percentage of black men who are doing good. I won’t give them a pat on the back because they are doing good. Look around, usually they don’t help mom raise children at all. I worked at an agency where you recieve honest statistics very often. I saw with my own eyes how many blacks vs whites that sign up for assistance. I enjoyed helping people sign up to get help, but I heard many stories, so please before you laugh look around and wake up because people don’t appreciate the truth insteadthey rather be delusional like you are. I am done with this conversation. Don’t expect a reply because you are wasting my time calling names instead of being honest with yourself.
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Exactly! Well said. No matter how they cherry pick the stats are accurate and everyone twists it the way they want. All anyone has to do is visit a black public school in any state in America, that’s it. If anything, I believe the statistical numbers have been kind. I have seen way more problems coming in my office from black single mothers who don’t think anything is wrong either. Like I was saying my ex’s abandoned me. And when black men abandon, they blame the woman. I was shocked and devastated, it took me therapy and support to make it through after I was abandoned. I was abandoned due to not looking like Beyonce. Or having the “right” hair or race. I had no idea these black men were so hateful toward black women because I grew up sheltered and with money from two parent home. For that reason, I can’t ever trust black men with my daughter. I told her go to college and she knows 3 languages, plays clasdical straight A student. I told her go college and please finish school and never deal with boys in the hood. 85%?of black men are very cruel.
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@colalover,
From reading your posts I suspect you’re just clowning but if not, it seems like your going to therapy didn’t work. C’mon now….
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@colalover
I grew up pretty sheltered as well. Even with my parents divorce I was still very sheltered. I complained alot about my father not being around, but the truth of the matter is even with him not being around so much he was around much more than others that I have personally seen with complete absent fathers. I have seen a few situations were father was there but complete abusive and non-productive for the family. I have said it before but the behavior of the black men of the past is fleeting. Now don’t get me wrong I have met some absolutely amazing black men as well, but the truth is we have a problem in the black community that is not one to be placed off as a joke. I won’t discount different facts because as someone has brought up….different unions or traditions that are not recognized in the court system.
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correction different factors*
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If we want to deal with reality then let’s deal with the actual reality that, for example Abagond, Ebonymonroe, and others have posted, as opposed to just trading personal tales which, in this case while…um…interesting…don’t prove much of anything.
Also, it would help if we stop with the increasingly absurd and romantic nostalgia about the past. It reminds me of Bill Cosby lecturing the hip hop generation about, among other things, their supposed treatment of women when his record on the treatment of women is pretty suspect.
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@Abagond:
Which brings up an interesting point. If the above is valid, then suppose how would the Jokers of the world want to handle his dire problem? It’s always discussed what state blacks are in, but never the supposed solutions that would “solve” this “problem”.
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[…] The black illegitimacy argument […]
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@ Ks
No one is claiming that it does prove anything but frankly if you don’t like what others are discussing then simply stop reading it and stop complaining constantly about what other people have to say. If you have some point then make it but stop b*tch’in every single time someone says something that you don’t like.
Everyone has different experiences and that is life. They don’t have to stop sharing it because it is not up to YOUR standards.
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Now I will take my own advice and stick to my past promise to just ignore your posts.
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colalover = troll!
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@ Alicia
Not everyone that disagrees is a troll. I think she had an experience that was legit to the conversation. If you want a troll call riverside_rob.
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@Sharina,
Oh please spare me your hypocritical nonsense. You don’t hesitate to criticize opinions you don’t agree with so why should I. Stop it. Colalover’s tales were suspect garbage that, in the very unlikely event they were true, reflect more on her sad lack of self esteem and poor judgement than anything else. Frankly, she seems to be a great example of Adonis’s long running point about people making bad decisions and them want to blame everybody.
Some fly by poster comes here with dubious tales of woe and claims that most black men are sociopaths!!! and 85% of them are cruel, mean and whatever and on and on and on and you want to give her an empowerment hug and a hankie to cry in. That’s fine for you though I seriously doubt you would do the same for some odd dude who came here and said similar incredibly noxious things about black women.
It’s hilarious that you think that some poster who basically was ranting the old “black men ain’t ish” line had an experience that was legit to the conversation which, if you recall, is actually about the racist use of the black illegitimacy trope and not whether you feel sorry for someone who clearly has issues.
Insofar as you going back to ignoring my posts…so what? It’s not like I value your opinion on my opinions. It’s funny though that you didn’t take your own advice and “simply stop reading blah, blah…” but in typical internet vanity fashion, had to make a statement of such to the crowd as if it mattered or something. Big whoop.
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@ks
So let’s hash this out because frankly I won’t be satisfied until I do.
“You don’t hesitate to criticize opinions you don’t agree with so why should I.”—There is a difference between criticizing what you don’t agree with and your whining about it. Your post was nothing more than you whining and pitching a fit about her telling her “personal tales.” It is her freaking opinion based on her freaking experience.
” That’s fine for you though I seriously doubt you would do the same for some odd dude who came here and said similar incredibly noxious things about black women.”—Well it shows you don’t know much about me now do you. Assumptions can be a b*tch but if you are willing to play that game them by all means play. 🙂
“It’s hilarious that you think that some poster who basically was ranting the old “black men ain’t ish” line had an experience that was legit to the conversation which, if you recall, is actually about the racist use of the black illegitimacy trope and not whether you feel sorry for someone who clearly has issues. “—Actually she did not say all black men and her experience was legit in that those type of black men do exist and contribute to the black illegitimacy rate.
” typical internet vanity fashion, had to make a statement of such to the crowd as if it mattered or something. Big whoop.”—Actually my statement was not for the crowd but for you (please don’t project on me Mr. showboat). I figured you might attempt to remind me of me saying it before so I jumped the boat. 🙂
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@Sharina,
Shhhhh…your crazy gal colalover just showed her a$$ again and made my point for me. It’s over Mrs. Lastworditis. : )
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Correction
then* not them
should say “I jumped the gun”.
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@ks
Didn’t know you had a point. Couldn’t get it over your whining. 🙂
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@Sharina,
Sure……you are particularly amusing tonight. Anyway, it seems like your girl colalover needs a friend. So stop fussing with me in an attempt to change the subject and go help her out. : )
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@ks
Actually you are attempting to change the subject. By directing me towards colalover’s needs that are actually in another thread. 🙂
fyi if what she said was pertinent to the post then I would help her but in that thread it is not.
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Sighs!
Colalover’s comments are sooooo depressing.
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“Colalover’s comments are sooooo depressing.”
********
Yep, they are. Especially that 85% of black males are cruel, crap. How would anyone know/measure what percentage of black males are cruel??
Colalover, have you met, known or dated ALL black men. If you didn’t mean that comment literally, then you shouldn’t have said it, literally!
I know Colalover isn’t Jorbia, but she sure seems/sounds a LOT like her!
Colalover, it appears to me that you have made some very bad choices in the men YOU chose. Take responsibility for your own poor taste/choices. How long did you KNOW your babies daddies before your pregnancies?
How did you position yourself to attract the sort of men you wanted – as opposed to the men you selected and then left you?
Choose your men BETTER!!!
*********
“I told her go college and please finish school and never deal with boys in the hood.”
Go to college… good.
Finish school …. good.
Never deal with boys from the hood?
Hmmm… since I was born and raised in the hood, I might not be the best one to address this (keen?) advice to your daughter. My observations/comment would be very prejudicial, at the very least!
Good luck.
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oh shoot. there is nothing wrong with men in the hood or from the hood, there are good people and bad people there just like any other neighborhood. Men and women need to choose better I’ve seen too many mof@ with the wrong person and the kids suffer the most. It takes some people a long time to figure out they are the problem in a relationship or who they choose. It is funny to me how people will stereotype people they’ve had bad relationships with and apply that to all people of that group. It is why people will stay in messed up relationships because they think oh it’s this other person and not me its black men/ black women that are the issue. People need to see why they attract certain kinds of men/women and why they keep choosing those kind of men/women. I think the reason some people can date the wrong black man/ black woman and have bad experiences and then turn around and date another race and have a good experience and say oh it was those black men/ women that were the issue is because sometimes people lower their standards when they date out. Like some people will expect another black person to have a degree, be fine, athletic, cook etc, but with another race of person they may expect less and not put much emphasis on looks but personality. Of course someone that is ok or good looking with a great personality will be more compatible for u than someone that is he11a fine and has a messed up personality. Then there are the ones that have messed up relationships no matter what race they date, because they are the issue but will never admit it.
I don’t like when people stereotype black women as being a certain way and I don’t like it when people stereotype black men as being a certain way.
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mstoogood4yall,
It’s bad enough to hear that kind of crap from whites, but it’s heartbreaking hearing it from other black people, assuming colalover is black.
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awwww come on Matari. You know Jorbia was 10 times worse. lol
Have to co-sign on the hood thing. Don’t believe the hype. Some are good some are bad.
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@ mstoogood4yall and Brothawolf
agreed.
I will add this. We can not subscribe to all or majority statements about black people or such statements as the percentage of black people are xyz, but we also can not subscribe to the idea that those type of black men and women do not exist. They do and the real question (as another has mentioned) is what do we do about this? How do we fix this?
I like how TrojanPam talks on being asleep, awake, and half awake. These are the stages we as black people find ourselves in. I am currently half awake. I am still learning. I am still coming to terms with a lot.
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@ Sharina: I do remember Jorbia, she was awful. She was very judgement of the poor and underpriviledged. That angered me.
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*judgemental*
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In regard to colalovers comments, she doesn’t know all the black men in America, that is just a bunch of hooey. If she doesn’t care to date black men that’s one thing, but to paint all black men with that nasty paint brush is wrong.
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Mary, that’s the paint brush of calling people you don’t know “sociopath”.
Just bandying that label about.
It’s an unpleasant habit.
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Bulaink: You have a point.
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@Legion: I don’t think colalover is jorbia, Jorbia, was articulate, Even though she had a harsh tone. Yes, she left a bad taste in my mouth, because she came across as an elitist snob. Yes, classist is an accurate word to describe how she came across. It’s unfortunate.
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@Legion: At best, I thought Jorbia was pretty sharp, I remember her saying how she was an out of the box thinker as opposed to being a conventional thinker, this to me show intelligence, and originality. That was impressive to me. But, when she talked about people who lived in low income areas, better know as the hood, she was very harsh and critical. It was elitist and classist. She was unapologetic. This what I found troubling.
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*This is what I found troubling*
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Thank you Legion!
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@mary burrell
“She was very judgement of the poor and underpriviledged.”—I was not aware of that.
@Legion
I understand where you are coming from and don’t get me wrong because she did make good points and I did stand up for her quite often, but my issue with her came frankly in the end. She became very hateful (in my opinion) when I offered her advice in regards to not begging Abagond. That left a bad taste in my mouth. All in all I appreciate where you are coming from.
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@ Legion
Thanks for the link and reminder. Even then I remember trying not to go too much against the grain myself. It’s funny because me standing up for Jorbia was the first time I actually just went against it. Time to go rogue. LOL…again.
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As far as I know, no one here left a certain commenter (whom I ceased directly communicating with a long time ago) as THE *Blog Monitor*!
Abagond, please correct if I’m wrong.
As such, I, nor any other poster are under any obligation to prove our recollection to those that are bothered by our comparisons of similar posters. I’m not obligated to prove anything, especially to those I have absolutely no interest whatsoever to prove or defend… If they don’t like my statement(s), they are welcome to do the work – by conducting their own research rather than getting their lack of knowledge all twisted, while getting others excited about nothing. If everyone is entitled to post their opinions of whatever, so too am I.
If any commenter, or troll, comes here and makes an INANE statement about 85% of black males are cruel and/or that black men from “the hood” should be avoided (as if all black residents from the hood/ghetto possesses serious character flaws more so than those who live elsewhere) then I going to say what I’m going to say, and I don’t give a rat’s azz about those who doesn’t agree with or like what I have to say. I repeat: If you don’t like it – TOUGH #@*!
I hope my I made my feelings perfectly clear!
I will “bash” whomever I’m given to “bash” for whatever purpose or reason I see fit to do so.
: )))
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@mary burrell
“when she talked about people who lived in low income areas, better know as the hood, she was very harsh and critical.”—-Not to say this is ok, but I was like that once myself. Sometimes I find my old habits creeping in. I have to remind myself that while I am blessed, I am not better than.
My new calling in church is hard for me because I get to see a lot of people in low income areas and lifestyles. Talking to some I often find myself judging and then I quickly get reminded that my duty is to help them get on track and not judge because I can easily find myself in their situation.
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Sharina,
I like how TrojanPam talks on being asleep, awake, and half awake. These are the stages we as black people find ourselves in. I am currently half awake. I am still learning. I am still coming to terms with a lot.
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m half-awake as well, or rather I’m half liberated. I say half-liberated because the programming of whiteness is still there, and I’m still fighting it. It may take me my whole life to uninstalled myself from it as it may still be around in the next 50 years, but I think it’s better than being asleep.
Legion,
A lot of you like to point out to the trolls the oft repeated phrase that, “blacks are not a monolith, we’re diverse, yada, yada, yada” Uh-huh, that’s a good sounding game but a number of you actually reveal you do want blacks to be constrained to certain types of thought and certain types of attitudes and Jorbia’s “fault” ,so far as I could see, is that she was falling outside the constraint of “permissible blackness” that some of you unofficially subscribe too. A number of people were in a hurry to make an enemy out of Jorbia, real shame, I don’t think she was an enemy at all.
I dunno about the rest of them, but I personally don’t expect black people to have the same thoughts and opinions as opposed to every new troll who pops up saying the exact same scripted lines ad nauseum.
However, it’s still none the less disappointing when black people adopt that same “hive mind”. To me it’s not being outside of “permissable blackness”. It’s about adopting the same mindset as the people who see you as a problem, and still take it in as the only truth.
I don’t recall what Jorbia said, at least during her last few months here, but when I first read her comments in a past thread, I honestly thought she was white. Real talk. Although, I agree she didn’t sound nearly as bad as colalover, again assuming colalover is a black woman.
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@ Sharina: I can respect that.
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@ Matari said:
Oh, gulp, all right then… {Bulanik reaches for protective armour, gum-shield,…}
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All I am saying is that how her statements made me feel when she would use the term “ghetto blacks” and the tone was so nasty and disdainful. I thought that was ugly.
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@brothawolf
“I think it’s better than being asleep.”—I agree. It is much better than being asleep.
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My last thoughts on this I told the sister how much I admired her for having her stuff together, I sincerely meant that. Anytime our people make it and is successful I am happy for them, I didn’t care that she dated men of other races, that wasn’t my issue, I just know if you are on top today, with thee fickleness of the economy in this country, you can be on your backside and sleeping in your car the next. I feel that one needs to be careful judging others who are less fortunate. Because, you never know what kind of curveball life will throw you.
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@Bulanik,
I know, right… LMAO
You think a gum-shield will be enough? You might need to order another batch (not “bash”, batch!) of hull plating tiles and an extra shield frequency modulating generator to ward off those photon & quantum torpedoes I’m apt to fire when “that” idiot starts firing an unnecessary volley of Borg weaponry aimed at my bridge.
SMH lol
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@Matari,
“The Blog Monitor”…heh. Very apt description.
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@mary burrell
Exactly and every well said!
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@Matari,
On second thought, it should be “the Blog Monitors” as there seems to be a tag team working the room. : )
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I see Abagond has banned colalover, she is somewhere laughing, seeing how she rattled the cage and got everyone all upset. She wins.
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@Everyone
Please excuse the myriad of typos in my earlier post…
It seems I’ve come down with a bad case of Jobia/Colalover-ITUS !!!
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Last June when Colalover was Delores, she was married to a white man presumably because she did not find black men attractive:
More:
Now she says she works for Social Services and 85% of black men are sociopaths!
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“I see Abagond has banned colalover, she is somewhere laughing, seeing how she rattled the cage and got everyone all upset. She wins.”
********
Ms Mary,
The one who laughs last, laughs BEST! And…
Actually we win! We no longer have to tolerate reading her twisted ideas and her white framed opinions!
I’m thankful for that!
@KS
You noticed that too, eh? LOL
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I guess that was because i agreed with Legion’s statement–which i read to mean “live and let live”…
if that makes it a “tag team”…so be it.
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phobebeprunelle,
Nah, you guess wrong.
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Good. I was hoping i had.
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@ Matari: Thank goodness we don’t have to read that foolishness.
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Oh well I have no issue admitting being wrong about a poster. It is what it is.
“On second thought, it should be “the Blog Monitors” as there seems to be a tag team working the room.”—If you are referring to me ks atleast get some balls and speak up. No need to play guess who games. 🙂
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“From reading the comments left by certain black-identified commenters, I get the impression that some blacks hold stereotypic notions of what it means to be black. I recall some commenters bashing “ghetto blacks”, black women, and now black men. I think that in their attempt to escape the stereotypes of blackness, they try to dissociate themselves from them by convincing themselves that they are not “like those other blacks”, along with all the negativity associated. But in doing so, they throw their own under the bus and misguidedly direct the blame for racism on blacks…”
***************
I’m not sure about that … “some blacks (HERE) hold stereotypic notions of what it means to be black,” idea. Yet, as Brothawolf just alluded to, if a so-called black person persistently posts comments that remarkably mirrors the frequent & identical troll tripe that gets posted here regularly, then inevitably some bashing back will commence regardless whether the offender is white, or black.
I’m not aware of anyone here having any issues with those who don’t behave in “fashionable” or stereotypical black behaviors – whatever the heck they may or may not be, but some of us are going to have reactions (bash back!) against ridiculous assertions coming from obvious white washed (white framed/white gaze) thinking.
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Legion,
Like I said, I don’t recall what Jorbia said, and I think it was at the BWE blog that I found out she was black. It may have been a different topic altogether. But, I remember engaging with her a few times, but I moved on. I didn’t even know she was banned much less which topic it was where she got the boot.
Now that you mentioned it, I did engage her at the BWE. I’ll have to see what was said then.
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Is it really possible to grow up and be educated in the USA and avoid being whitewashed? You would have to avoid using white educational materials, avoid exposure to white media and live apart from a political system based on white supremacy.
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@Legion: Dully noted, Sir.
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*Duly Noted* ^^^^
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Is it really possible to grow up and be educated in the USA and avoid being whitewashed? You would have to avoid using white educational materials, avoid exposure to white media and live apart from a political system based on white supremacy.
*************
Yes!
I believe it’s possible. A giant step towards that end would be to turn OFF the TV, or rather just get rid of it!!
A few more thoughts:
Download your favorite shows – minus the crappy commercials – off the Internet.
Same with movies. Be very discriminating about what you’re letting into your brain – and know exactly what it is you’re looking at, how THEY are trying to condition you to behave, etc.
Stop reading B/S newspapers (and websites) everyday, and the same goes for news-tainment cultural/celebrity/fashion/gossip magazines. Listen to music/songs that is positive, upbeat, meaningful and uplifting. Engage in FORWARD MOVEMENT healthy activities that aren’t superficial time wasters. Challenge yourself and others to think and see (what’s true) OUTSIDE the box and underneath the surface.
Want to see what’s really happening in America? Visit news sites based in other countries reporting on the USA! And visit alternative news sites.
Watch George Carlin, Sinbad, Chris Rock, Wanda Sykes comedy. Or your own favorites. Laughter is good for the soul and a needed respite from the wearisome waves of whiteness seeking to drown/devour us all.
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I actually liked Jorbia… I found her to be refreshing. I didn’t agree with her on all points, but she broke the “groupthink” template, which I always think is a danger in any group.
Generally, if you tend to gravitate toward group with little or no disagreement, then you are in danger of becoming a fool.
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I went to Space Camp was a counselor there also I didn’t get to shoot any one I did get in major trouble there. I was also raised by a single mom whose husband died of heart attack. People got filth in there mind and then their tongue goes a wagging. Luckily my Mom had more class than to tangle with them. What is worst is because my Mom was raising us alone people thought when they gave to inner city kids they were giving to us. Really, did I mention I went to Space Camp my Mom paid the full price we didn’t need or get your help. This is what that dumb stereotype does makes it seems like ever black woman got knocked up by some dumb guy.
“Is it really possible to grow up and be educated in the USA and avoid being whitewashed?”
I feel this questions is the same as, Can you really go into the Ocean and avoid being wet?
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Good advice!
Good advice – remember that THEY are also likely to be many of the people you think of as heroes and “anti-establishment” models.
Good advice. Begin with the ones you think are on your side and telling you the truth by whispering into your blind spots all the things you already believe to be true.
Good luck… you may need a time machine.
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I actually liked Jorbia… I found her to be refreshing. I didn’t agree with her on all points, but she broke the “groupthink” template…
**************
Believe it or not, King, I liked her too. At least I did in the beginning. Or maybe I liked her sharpness, intelligence, wit… What I didn’t like was her abrasiveness and her caustic unrelenting, unreasonable person-hood and her refusal to admit an error even after being shown that she made some ridiculous asinine declaration about all the men on this blog, or black women’s marriage rates, not to mention that she was the personification of RUDE.
She seemed to have the biggest chip on her shoulder reserved for the people she stated she was interested in seeing do better. Black people. : /
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@KOT
Well, yes, technically you can. You can enter a submersible vehicle and seal the edges. Also, I am a scuba diving instructor, and teach drysuit diving and on occasion I was able to stay completely dry inside even after being submerged in water for an hour.
But, for most people, I think the answer is no. I really can’t see how it could be possible in the USA, at least for the last 100 years (what date was it when the “last” native American was discovered who had never had any contact with white people?) Even Mainland China unapologetically berates Hong Kong people for how “westernized” they are and how they often think like British “running dogs”. People who have never lived in the West can still get whitewashed. I cannot imagine a situation in the USA where someone could grow up there and completely avoid getting whitewashed. About the best they could do is recognize aspects where they have been whitewashed and try to take action to counteract it. (maybe this is similar to what Legion said). But still, you might be lucky if you could even reverse 1% of the whitewash.
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Hey King
No one is on my side, and I have no heroes. lol
🙂
Oh, and no time machine required. Got several MP3 type players all loaded with that good ole (Abagond’s old gold) music from yesteryear.
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Got several MP3 type players all loaded with that good ole (Abagond’s old gold) music from yesteryear.”
What?? No Nicki Minaj??? Lol!
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@ Matari: Got several MP3 type players all loaded with that goode ole (Abagond’s old gold) music from yesteryear. I thought I was the only one who thought of that. I thought It was crazy, but I see I am in good company.
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Mary, King
: ))
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@Kiwi
Thanks!
Let’s hope that the Internet STAYS the way it is.
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@Legion
A small correction. There was not one poster that lead to Jorbia leaving but a few. It was simply that one poster that was the straw the broke the camels back.
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@Matari
I have something to ask you but I will do so at a much later time. Rather 2 things to ask.
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@King
“Generally, if you tend to gravitate toward group with little or no disagreement, then you are in danger of becoming a fool.”—lol. So I guess I am free to go rogue then. ROFL
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Legion,
Oh okay. I thought Jorbia was banned. Thanks for clearing that up.
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@ Matari: Captain, you have me breaking my sides again with laughter! 😀
****************************************************************************************
On another note, I don’t know how you feel another commenter’s remark, this one, from Legion:
…but perhaps you could find a way to consider it (sooner than later).
I have long wished and hoped for some kind of rapprochement between you both since May last year (around the time of the thread called “Edward Said: Permission to Narrate”).
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@ King, Matari, Legion — last night when I left the thread for my bed, I was wondering how odd it was that so little that was positive seemed to be remembered about Jorbia, a commenter I also liked.
I also thought she had constructive exchanges with Brothawolf and Sharina…
I don’t read all the discussions here, nor did I read all the ones that Jorbia participated in, but, even though I did NOT agree with some things she said, or cared for the way she put some things across — I liked her.
She was her own woman. She wasn’t one of Abagond’s anointed favourites. She never kissed-up. She wrote well. She had something to say.
I didn’t appreciate the hostility directed at her, and said as much, along with Legion.
Then once, Jorbia showed me a great kindness.
When she did that, she shared something personal about herself, and in that moment, I realized all that “strident- and-unbreakable” tone was the stuff of nonsense she put on in some of her replies to protect,herself, and … to hell with what anyone thought.
She should never have been, or made to feel, pushed out.
I remember Jorbia with warmth and hope she’s well and happy.
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@Sharina,
“Oh well I have no issue admitting being wrong about a poster. It is what it is.
“On second thought, it should be “the Blog Monitors” as there seems to be a tag team working the room.”—If you are referring to me ks atleast get some balls and speak up. No need to play guess who games.”
You still yapping at me? I’m glad you’re taking your colalover “L” like a grown woman and moving on. : ) Anyway, it should be clear by now that I don’t have any problems speaking up so you don’t have to bait me. Eh, it’s not an important matter. If I feel like saying more about it, I will. If not, I won’t. It’s not a big deal either way. : )
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@ks
“Anyway, it should be clear by now that I don’t have any problems speaking up so you don’t have to bait me.”—Oh it was not a bait because if I was indeed trying to bait you I would be throw side slams instead of just saying your name. Be very clear on something ks…I have no problem speaking up either except I say names and I don’t play games. 🙂
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@Bulanik
I am sure she is happy or atleast I would picture it that way. She had her good as well as her bad (like we all do).
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@ Matari
I will put my questions in open thread because I don’t really want to take this post too far off topic.
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If illegitimacy is the problem; than how come other countries can have comparable rates and not have all the crime, etc….?
Though I think those countries tend towards socialism so that might be the answer right there.
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@ Sharina — ! Being imperfect and flawed goes with the territory of being human.
Trolls are another matter. Lol.
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@ Bulanik
“Trolls are another matter. Lol.”—Oh yes. lol
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I also had a good deal to say in her defense back in the day – in fact, most of my defense went something like this:
– It is not important that everyone agree with Jorbia
– What’s important is that she be allowed to have different opinions than most
– Which means people can disagree, just attack the idea & not the person
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Trolls aren’t so bad either. For instance, people think Randy is a Troll – I do not. I think even Da Jokah is becoming less trollish (and perhaps more orkish!) Most people’s definition of a “troll” is someone who disagrees with their point of view and will not change their mind after 3 or 4 posts.
“Trolls” are accused of doing the very damaging work of disrupting the bleating harmony of agreement to every post. Believe me, even true Trolls serve a purpose… they often say for kicks the very things that many believe in their philosophy. This is why their post are often worth addressing.
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@ King — true.
You certainly did have a good deal to say in her defence.
Sometimes fearfulness about being “different” and not in agreement closes down discussion because a commenter wants to avoid personal attack.
It’s not always fear of course, sometimes a commenter just becomes tired of it.
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@ King
I never saw Randy as a troll. His arguments are careful and he’s always polite.
Maybe I have a different understanding of what a troll is, in my mind I don’t think of a troll as “devil’s advocate” — more online harasser.
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@ Bulanik
I guess there can be different types of trolls.
My personal main definition are:
1) A person who doesn’t even believe what he says (it’s usually a “he”) but just says thing to try and incite a reaction/attention from others.
2) A weak person using the internet as a way to strike out at people whom he otherwise would not dare to approach stripped of his cloak of anonymity.
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@ King, I see. Then I agree with your point about the usefulness of Troll Type 1 to discussions.
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@ Bulanik
Besides, I think that many a trollish wanderer has bumped into the likes of yourself, or Sharina, Legion, or a multitude of others. They then realized that these were not the stupid, emotional, Blacks that they had imagined. And many had to grudgingly admit, even when they didn’t agree, that intelligent arguments are often made here.
In time they come with less arrogance and more self-reflection and openness.
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@ King
Abagond, in his wisdom, doesn’t just strike “delete” when an unfamiliar commenter appears that says something controversial (lol).
He doesn’t ask them to leave for that reason alone.
As time has gone on, I’ve come to respect this policy — it’s even helped me in my own life to respond to the most “orkish” and aggressive of racists…
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Uncle Milton
To Ebonymore:
Partly, as a result, (the last time I checked), 50% of African Americans are living below the poverty line.
Not it’s half that and I don’t think the poverty rate for Black Americans has been 50% in my lifetime.
http://blackdemographics.com/households/poverty/
Click to access acsbr11-17.pdf
FWIW, the median income for Black Americans is about the same as the median income for Sweden.
There are twice as many white Americans below the poverty (since there are a little over 5 times as many whites as blacks..) than black Americans.
………………………………………..
I’m glad to hear it. That will teach me to believe information from BET.
…………………………………………….
Statistically, the biggest benefactors/claimers of welfare, have been White
Not for at least a decade:
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ofa/resource/character/fy2010/fy2010-chap10-ys-final
……………………………………
^^^ (As far as welfare, if you bring the population of White Americans down to the African American population, I would not be surprised if African Americans were more likely to end up on welfare, if this is true.)
Side note: You noted that there are more Whites living in poverty because there are more of them than there are African Americans, but then you jumped the population numbers frame and said there are more Blacks on welfare despite there being more Whites, here. “African Americans ultimately have it easier with poverty because there are simply more Whites, so there are more White Americans in poverty.” (Fair enough.)
. . . (Suddenly detach the numbers frame) “Despite there being more White Americans, only just noted, there are more African Americans on welfare despite there being more Whites.”
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I’ve been saying this for a very long time. Using absolute numbers instead of theoretical numbers if the “trend were to continue” (which doesn’t account for the social economic change that would occur if say black people were in the same numbers as whites here) just makes logical sense. At least when you draw white people down to scale, they are people who are actually accounted for and not based on a “possible trend” as the argument often goes when they try to account for large black population that doesn’t exist.
Excellent post 🙂
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http://gawker.com/racists-attack-daddy-blogger-over-viral-photo-of-interr-1498754578/@neetzanz
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^^^ It’s unfathomable to me how some people can let loose so much hatred over a pic of a father tending to his own children. . . .
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Indigoblu, is your avatar a pic of yourself? If so, you are quite beautiful … and no doubt beautiful even if it isn’t. 🙂
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@Pay it Forward
I cosign that. It is disgusting how people act over the most simple things. What he did should be seen as normal.
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( http://www.cdc.gov/search.do?q=birth+rates&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&ud=1&site=default_collection&btnG.x=27&btnG.y=18 )
The CDC has an updated report that you can read in PDF.
I believe this is the report where Don Lemon got his statistics. He just didn’t get around to telling the whole story. Politifact “fact checked it” but didn’t put Lemon’s “fact” into context with the rest of the report.
( http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/ )
The report shows that since 1965 non martial births have increased in every race in proportion to the 1965 ratio and topped in 2007. Since 2007 each group has declined 2% a year in non martial births. The report also shows teen age births dropping significantly with blacks having a 60% reduction in teen age births over the last ten years. The 2011 statistics show that 32.3 % of white women, 63.7% of black women and 75.1% of Hispanic women have non martial births. 58% of these non martial births are in cohabitating relationships meaning their is a man around. In other words less people are marrying and more people are having children out of wedlock.
The report also shows a significant drop in married couple having children in part because the children preexisted the marriage.
What were looking at is a cultural change and as Abagond pointed out, if you look at Europe the same trend is happening their and is reflected in greater numbers among white women. Iceland has the highest rate of non martial births coming in around 63% in their mostly white population. That’s double of what it is in America and is almost identical to American blacks.
Iceland also has one of the lowest crime levels of any country in the world. In fact their police shot somebody to death a few weeks back and it was noted that this was the first shooting of a civilian by the police in the history of Iceland.
I don’t think we can draw a correlation between non martial births and crime.
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@ Michael John Barker.
Thank you for posting this information! Recently Bill O’Reilly did another one of his “reports” that pulled the 72% Black illegitimacy rate and also linked this as part of “black culture” that was contributing to high poverty in the Black community. Oh and he managed to blame President Obama too, even though Black unemployment is typically double the national rate no matter who’s in office. That should be more alarming than anything else.
I’m very tired of conservatives who feel the need to spotlight their skewed view of Black America.
This guy makes $40 million a year to spew misinformation. Must be nice to not have a conscience.
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Blacks need to get rid of this ghetto, drug, violence, baby-daddy mentality. They need to assimilate into American culture
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@Bobby M
Too bad you are too ignorant to realize that blacks don’t have a ghetto, drug, violence, baby-daddy mentality. Atleast no more than whites. So good luck trying to change American culture.
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There goes my not responding to the moronic goal.
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@ Bobby M: Many whites are just as dysfunctional. Stop being ignorant.
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@ Bobby M . There isn’t an appropriate response for a comment as obtuse as yours. Good luck in life.
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It’s alright, Sharina. If you hadn’t said anything I would have. Sometimes, even with the best of intentions to ignore trolls, it simply can’t be done. 🙂
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There are pathologies and dysfunction in many areas of society.
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@Melanie S.
That is just too true.
@mary burrell and bygodsloveandgrace
I was about to ask where you two have been hiding. I had not seen you guys comment much lately.
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Mmm, although I have personally always subscribed to a very conservative outlook when it comes to children and the implications of a society with an influx of children being born outside the confines of a stable nuclear family, looking over Abagond’s post along with comment contributions from individuals like MJB, has caused me to arrive at a less closed minded perspective regarding the correlation between illegitimate births and crime rates.
Iceland’s statistics proves it is intellectually dishonest to see the two as going hand in hand.
After watching “Bowling for Columbine” a while back, I do believe that America’s contention with crime is due to variables that are very unique to American society itself, and extend far beyond out of wedlock birth rates.
You cannot be a fully functioning adult with your faculties intact, such as critical thinking, and yet unable to shift your ideologies when confronted with hardcore information. (Hint, hint.)
This post has done that for me.
Something to think about.
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Abagond says:
The part that never gets ATTACHED to this argument is that as far as the history of blacks in the US goes, it is white men who did not stand up to their responsibility to their children. Many, if not most, blacks in the US have European ancestors, and again, many of them only have white male ancestors and have no idea who these men are because if knowledge of the family tree is passed on in a family, the white male would have exited from the life of the woman / girl shortly after impregnation, the child disowned and, of course, Plain Ole Black, white father or not. The One Drop Rule is such a handy fig leaf…
White men impregnated black women and girls all the time, often through rape (though not exclusively), but it seems, it was NOT common for them to recognize the children from those women as their flesh and blood and heirs.
It wouldn’t stop them from selling those children, they were slaves too.
Did they feel obligated to feed, clothe, educate and protect those children, as fathers do? Was it the standard practice for white men to do that?
I think not. I don’t believe that the many, many white men who “sired” children with black women / girls were any example of responsible fatherhood.
Yet, this crucial little crust, this historical context, gets left out of this stale old narratives about BLACK men, as if it was an axiom and essential trait of being black and male, rather than the standard practice of white male supremacy.
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@ bulanik
What you write is absolutely true – many generations of black women who were raped or impregnated by white slaveholders were deprived of the positive example of the responsible fatherhood. And even if the father was black, slaves had no possibility of creating stable families, every minute the slave family could be separated, their members sold to different owners.
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It is not surprising that in such conditions many black women started to think that giving birth out of wedlock is a normal state of things. There was little in the social reality which could inspire the idea of stable family relations – there were only white men who were irresponsible because of their vice, and black men who were irresponsible more of necessity – they hurried to enjoy life until they are not sold to another plantation, loose health from toiling or are whipped to death.
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I don’t see this essentially about the enslaved black man “hurrying to enjoy life” in some way, gatobranco.
It is my gut feeling that the male slave ALSO wept when his child was sold, his baby thrown to dogs, when the women and girls and male children he knew or loved were sold, battered, flogged and raped. How could fellow slaves protect ANY women or child from all of that? They could not.
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gatobranco, it seems the English that founded the US took intense interest in the family arrangements of the Africans that existed under their enslavement.
English common law from the 1600s was simple: the father’s status determined his child’s status…but that had to be changed after white men started impregnating enslaved black women and girls. How else could the white slave owner (overseer) get off scot-free from paternal accountability, and profit from it? Easier to burden and blame the blacks for their own circumstances.
They made the laws to suit themselves, to un-say the history… then stand back, as if morally neutral, and wag the finger at supposedly uniformly deadbeat black dads generations later…
http://www.hist.umn.edu/~bywelke/Virginia_Laws_of_Servitude_and_Slavery.htm
Later after the legislators had done their bit to distract us away from ABSENT WHITE FATHERS, it would be the “sympathetic” sociologists who would do more distracting, this time pointing to the:
“fatherless matrifocal (mother-centered) pattern” within black families.
(Moynihan)
That Moynihan study would show point readers to look down on black men, people who had not learned the appropriate roles of providing for their families, or sticking around for them.
Such shortcoming passed down through generation after generation!
All knotted up in a “tangle of pathology”!
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@bulanik, nice retort 🙂
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bulanik
I’m amused that mulattoes are continuously attributed to alleged rapes by plantation owners rather than quickies with white hired hands who lived and worked with slaves. That’s an aspect that doesn’t get much mention but poor whites often lived and worked on plantations right along side slaves. It seems more likely they’d be the source rather than some wealthy landowner.
Regardless, if illegitimacy is a legacy of slavery then why did it take 100 years after slavery ended for that legacy to show up? And if it’s a legacy of slavery then why do the curves for illegitimacy rates follow the same trend line for every demographic? And why do those trend lines spike in the 1960s right after the “war on poverty” expanded welfare?
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DJ:
I’m amused that mulattoes are continuously attributed to alleged rapes by plantation owners rather than quickies with white hired hands who lived and worked with slaves. That’s an aspect that doesn’t get much mention but poor whites often lived and worked on plantations right along side slaves. It seems more likely they’d be the source rather than some wealthy landowner.
It doesnt surprise me that this would ‘amuse’ you!!!!! Could be reading this wrong but your comment comes across as underhand. You seem to be slyly putting across that the more wealthier landowners would not stoop to put their hands on the slaves but that the poor would. Does being rich = class and high moral standards to you I wonder?
Not a great history buff but it doesnt take a genius to see how and why it could have happened. Sex and sexuality was not celebrated and definately supressed in these times. Women showing their ankles probably would have given the men a boner let alone anything else! Also, if you look at how white women in particular were put on a pedestal as pure as the driven snow, I suspect that sex was seen as purely for procreational purposes rather than pleasure. Not saying that they didnt enjoy it as a general rule but, religion, society etc did not promote it as being enjoyable. That being said, these men probably had their ‘urges’ and probably regularly visited slaves for sex.
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Jokah,
I heard that Thomas Jefferson’s “quickie” with his slave produced 6 children.
You are a quite a naive joker if you believe he was an isolated case..and you have me chortling if you simply don’t believe the narratives of slaves who saw and experienced rape.
White people noticed this rape, too.
If the account of planters wife Fanny Kemble, and others are anything to go by, predatory white men were the reason behind:
http://www.fold3.com/page/1460_antebellum_slavery/stories/
I also heard that Rape laws in the south were framed around a race-based double standard to enable white men to rape without fear of punishment.
Why would that be so?
And why would other commentators of the era, such Angelika and Sarah Grimke, or Rebecca Latimer Felton or Mary Boykin Chestnut notice and report on the rapist behavior of white men?
But, what is most telling — and unamusing — about your remark is that you don’t know the difference between rape and sex.
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omnipresent, bulanik
In 1830, 30% of the workers on large plantations were white “wage slaves”. By 1860, 70% of the plantation workers were poor whites. I find it odd that people assume any mulattoes had to be the result of rape by a wealthy landowner rather than a fling between people who spent all day long working together. Even abagond has written that “most of the mixing of the races took place after the civil war, after the slaves were freed.”
Sorry to disappoint you but you’re going to have to find another reason to hate white men. Because most of that sex was consensual not rape. And they liked it, too.
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DJ:
I find it odd that people assume any mulattoes had to be the result of rape by a wealthy landowner rather than a fling between people who spent all day long working together.
Doesnt really matter if you find it odd or it ‘offends’ you that some black people have more noble (I mean higher class – not honourable) lineage than perhaps you have – I dont doubt that it happened. More than you or anyone else would care to imagine.
Sorry to disappoint you but you’re going to have to find another reason to hate white men. Because most of that sex was consensual not rape. And they liked it, too.
Lol, stop it. I think it has already been established that you are not ‘white’ in the stormfront sense of the word. Stop trying to align yourself with this group – they dont want you there. Anyway, who liked what? The black women? The white men? Both? How do you know that they liked it?
BTW only someone sexually inexperienced, inadequate and inept would make that kind of assertion. I have long suspected that you are a disgusting frustrated warped individual.
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Even abagond has written that “most of the mixing of the races took place after the civil war, after the slaves were freed.”
You take this to mean that the plantation owners were not regularly raping their slaves!
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Omnipresent
Just shows me that he will drag out a “abagond says”when it suits him. Just more proof of what level of confirmation bias he engages in.
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Sharina:
Just shows me that he will drag out a “abagond says”when it suits him. Just more proof of what level of confirmation bias he engages in.
What is revealing is his statement that ‘they liked it, too.’ What is he basing this on? It is a bold statement to make but it makes me think that it is something that he has thought a lot about…..
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It had nothing to do with welfare and some collective decision among African Americans to begin skipping marriage . . .
“HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I am always amused by b!tchists, and their b!tchism, especially the type of B!tchism that seems to be evident in the author of this particular book. I am glad Abagond took the time out to expose this guy and his b!tchas$edness in all its glory. What is with these guys? It’s like the only history they know about black people is Slavery, the Tuskegee Airmen, and Nowadays. If they put as much energy into trying to make their self-pity seem like self-esteem, they would be able to realize that they do not need “Proppa Propaganda.” Real history is enough. Real history like The Negro family in Slavery, the Tulsa Riots (a black middle class settlement) and even a movie (based on real life) like Rosewood, with its extended family, complete with a black man (GASP), defending his family!
Indeed, most sources show that the black extended family managed to exist in some form during slavery, and remained largely intact post-slavery, up until the late 1960s.
They even got slavery wrong. B!tchas$es. The main reason black men would get caught and sent back was because they hung around the slave plantation when they ran away, or (In Jamaica at least), during the Christmas time when slaves got the day off to celebrate, the black man would run to the plantation where his first love was. Hell. simply digging around shows that black people during the early part of the last century had lower divorce rates than whites.
It would seem that the “demise of Black Love” (late ’60s, around the time of the Moynihan Report) occurred during a time that saw first world countries implement
– massive deindustrialisation of major American cities (containerization and urban policies)
– the loosening of immigration policies, allowing cheap labour to compete with local labour (France with Magrebian, America with Hispanics, Britain with her former colonies)
– the IndoChina conflict (with the attendant military draft)
– massive importation of powerful narcotics into poor areas (like black ghettoes)
– a property crash during the early ’70s
– the reorganization of cities according to the desires of Robert Moses and his disciples, and no one else’s, not even the people who lived there
– neo-liberal policies that shifted state services away from areas with a majority of poor people , to richer areas (like moving the bulk of fire services away from the Bronx and Brooklyn to Manhattan)
– the creation of a legal-industrial complex that arrests and incarcerates black males at a much higher per capita level than their counterparts
Even just two of the above would be enough to cause the level of social breakdown seen in poor black American communities today, never mind the white communities that have also experienced similar issues (the Rust Belt , for example)
It is good that Abagond exposes these b!tch n!ggas, not just so that we may mock them and pour scorn on their writing (seriously, it’s like they think that the sum total of black history is learnt by watching “Roots”), but also that we may counter their arguments and propose solutions of our own, whether it be on the individual level (exercise, schooling, education, meeting other likeminded individuals), community (guiding little n!ggas, community fundraising, taking advantage of fundraising loopholes to create PACs) or on a larger scale (media manipulation a la Shirley Sherrod, setting up think-tanks to influence institutions).
But that’s hard work, isn’t it? Easier to make YouTube videos about Willie Lynch. Easier to pity yourself under the guise of venting (Black Men Vent and Black Women’s Empowerment) and easier to live in the past where only enslavement, genocide, failure (a few black inventors) and injustice exist.
It is least we could do honour our ancestors, who dealt with greater hardships than we, yet still managed to survive, and preserve their families so that we could make it here. Wouldn’t you agree?”
Source: Satanforce stolen from this site
……………………………………………………….
There were many systematic measures introduced that quickly took African Americans from having one of the lowest divorce rates, to the highest. African Americans do get married. In fact, before age 35 75% of African American women are married, and along with that, most so called “African American single mothers” are in cohabitating unions with the fathers of their offspring and do later go on to marry.
I’m sorry Da Jokah, but every time I come to this site I seem to see you consuming your time with going out of your way to try and prove that Black people are lesser human beings or something. I think it’s pretty pathetic that one would spend such a large amount of time doing such a thing. You spout a bunch of nonsense as evidence that Black people are “less than,” while you continually rationalize any posts on racism. If it’s Black people, you don’t do the research (which resulted in you being destroyed in a debate in the open thread regarding the White community and pedophilia), so you immediately go to the idea of it being down to some “innate trait of Black people,” but as soon as something is presented that is thoroughly researched and legitimate regarding racism, you begin suggesting every possible angle to explain away why it has nothing to do with racism. Your tactics are unintelligent and intellectually dishonest, and you do nothing but prove how deeply immature you are. It’s ridiculous.
Anywho, if America wants to change the problem of delayed marriage among African Americans, there will have to be a shift in neighbourhood containment and resources being removed from African American neighbourhoods, (White flight), as well as the disparity of job opportunities for African American men, which, while they have now outnumbered White American men in college attendance, remain affected, despite affirmative action which has had its quota satisfied by White women for the most part.
I think the only way for things to really change is for there to be greater independence for African Americans through the distribution of wealth from wealthy African Americans. I agree with Malcolm X’s ideology that the aims of the civil rights movement were flawed because there will never be true integration, and expecting was always extremely idealistic. The African American community, and POC for the most part, will never be treated the same way as White Americans, so the only way towards successful growth and operation as a community, is to have a country within a continent, so to speak. Black owned businesses catering to the community, job creation, Black schools and more universities, and police departments to police neighbourhoods. It’s the only way.
Although, in saying that, this has been attempted twice, on a state scale, and was shut down on both occasions by the tax man. So . . .. I don’t know, we may find one day that it’s time to just go back. But then again, the Hispanics are about to become the majority, and although there is racism in the Hispanic community, it will be funny to see how White people deal with being a minority in a few short decades. (Giggles.)
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Omnipresent
That statement reminds me of how rapist view raping; as the victim liking it. Now I am not one who will bypass that some relationships were formed in love and not rape, but I truly believe Hollywood deluded people into believing that was mainly the case to make the raping and ugly parts acceptable.
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I think he may be expressing an all to real subconscious reality of white men…
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Sharina wrote:
“Now I am not one who will bypass that some relationships were formed in love and not rape […]”
_ _ _
Thank you, Sharina, as it needs to be acknowledged the not all IR pairings of the slave era constituted the rape of Black woman by non-Black / white men. To construe this as being the case actually dehumanizes all Black women.as being little more than barnyard animals….
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Linda:
He brings Nothing to this blog except to disrupt it by making inflammatory and ignorant statements.
Yes you are right. The intention is to continually disrupt. But, every time he does this, he exposes himself more and more. His latest comment shows that there is a ‘sickness’ running through him. The same ‘sickness’ that compels him to write on a blog engaging with people that he fears/loathes yet watches their every move in society. The sickness that tries to present PoC as less in every way to other races. He even goes as far to convince himself and deny that the plantation owners would have raped slaves. Instead, he choses to believe they had high morals and noble behaviour and the fact that it offends him deeply that these individuals would stoop to be with their slaves. But he exposes himself by typing a fallacious, lascivious comment that shows where HIS mind really is about the subject of rape and the rape of slaves.
This is why I made this comment earlier to Da Jokah I have long suspected that you are a disgusting frustrated warped individual. I am suspecting that this comes from a few things.
It seems he is not ‘white’ enough
Not ‘rich’ enough
and I know that he is not ‘man’ enough
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“He brings Nothing to this blog except to disrupt it by making inflammatory and ignorant statements.”
***************
So, why do those on this blog continually FEED this attention whore/idiot who seeks validation from the very “Negroes” he claims to loath??
That’s the real question … why not simply ignore this silly rodent in the hope that it’ll go elsewhere …where the rat food is better!
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Because opposition serves a purpose, in the same way that resistance serves a purpose when training in the gym.
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Matari
Because most of his post needs to be disputed. He often posts incorrect information that if left alone others who read it may view it as correct. Other than that might as well enjoy the free entertainment.
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I ave a comment in moderation and I think because I quoted your post Matari, it likely got caught up on a certain word. But the post reads:
Because opposition serves a purpose, in the same way that resistance serves a purpose when training in any gym.
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Sharina said to Omnipresent:
Agreed.
When I said that “white men impregnated black women and girls all the time, often through rape (though not exclusively) “, the facts must have appeared inconvenient.
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I’m going to refer you people to the comment policy. If you can’t abide by the rules abagond may have to ask you to leave.
The main thing to keep in mind:
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Da Jokah,
GTFOH– trying to discipline us and hide behind a policy like a punk, after you continually outright malign black and non-white people.
You come here and make false and untrue statements about “historical FACTS” — thinking if you repeat your LIES long enough, it will stick.
You don’t deserve any “respect” after calling black people monkeys and saying BS like this:
“ Da Jokah @ I find it odd that people assume any mulattoes had to be the result of rape by a wealthy landowner rather than a fling between people who spent all day long working together.
Sorry to disappoint you but you’re going to have to find another reason to hate white men. Because most of that sex was consensual not rape. And they liked it, too.”
You don’t get to come here and say disgusting, ignorant, demeaning things without getting called out for the “basic bottom-dwelling” creature that you are.
the comment policy doesn’t apply where you are concerned, worm
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Da Jokah
You can drag that comment policy out and dance to it because I can promise you that on the day he “asks” me to leave you will be coming with.
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linda trying to discipline us and hide behind a policy like a punk, after you continually outright malign black and non-white people.
First, do you think the rules don’t apply to you? And, second, it’s obvious from years of posts and comments that it is this blog and its adherents who are maligning whites and not the other way around. You’re just angry that someone disagrees with it.
“You don’t deserve any “respect” after calling black people monkeys “
Show me where I did that. I don’t believe I have.
“You don’t get to come here and say disgusting, ignorant, demeaning things “
I disagree that it was disgusting, ignorant or demeaning. It was the truth. I think your objection is that you hate whites. And you’re outraged that you’re part white. So rather than admit your african ancestors may have had consensual sex or even loved a white man you prefer to see them as having been raped. That way you get to hate whites without the cognitive dissonance that comes from being part white yourself.
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Da jokah
Linda never mentioned any thing about being part white, so you trying to discredit her and others on the basis that they are mixed goes to show how ignorant you are to begin with.
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Funny how da jokah mentions truth yet is never happy when kiwi mentions the truth about him. *shrugs*
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Abagond, your killing me with moderations
Da Jokah, I don’t like YOU… it’s not about white people, it’s all about YOU
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Sharina, don’t pay attention to Da Jokah….
he is trying to tap dance around his lies, like a typical white American racist who likes to fling the mud but can’t take it when it’s flung back.
You notice how all these white American trolls like to talk about “race cards” and try to say black people are racist for pointing out the truth —
history has already passed and gone.. it cannot be changed by Da Jokah and other white trolls with foul agendas.
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Linda
I know you don’t like me. I don’t care. But I don’t believe it’s not about white people. Your presence on a blog dedicated to maligning whites shows otherwise. And before anyone says I’m on this blog, too, it should be obvious that I unlike others disagree with most of what’s written here.
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@ Linda: Five comments deleted for moderated language.
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Da jokah
Who cares what you believe as most of what you believe is wrong anyway. It really does not matter if you disagree or not. You still are here quite a bit, so to pull the “I disagree with most of it” card is weak and highlights some mental issues on your part.
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No Da Jokah,
I don’t intend to play a game of “defend” with you, worm… because you can’t find anything that shows that I hate whites.
I believe in Truth and balance… Your interactions here does not bring ANY kind of truth and absolutely NO balance… you bring chaos. You do nothing but disrupt with your ignorance and lies.
my presence on this blog is to be with white and non-white people who are interested in the subjects Abagond discusses so we can have “progressive” discussion between each other.
Your disagreement is expected because that’s all you do on this blog… whatever someone writes, you always disagree with it —
it’s par for the course because that is WHY YOU ARE HERE– You don’t care about the subjects, you don’t sh’t about half of what is being discussed but there you are, dragging your nauseating presence into the middle
I am not interesting in your feelings and you are not here to read, learn, and interact with the rest of us… you are here to be a disruptive force… You TAINT every discussion that you push your basic self into.
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Correction:
You don’t know sh’t about half of what is being discussed
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Kiwi,
Very true– Isn’t it “luxurious” that a white racist gets to come to a black man’s blog — constantly insults and demeans black and non-white people
then when he gets called out for being a white racist pig, then he tries to use a black man’s blog rules to hide behind, so he can continue to insult and demean black and non-white people
ONLY in Abagond’s world can this schitzoid behavior be allowed to exist.
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The bit just linked to by Kiwi:
Randy Wed 16 Oct 2013 at 20:29:17
Da Jokah Wed 16 Oct 2013 at 22:03:40
Source:
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Kiwi
That is exactly what kills me. His ability to dish it but then turns into a cry baby when it is time to take it.
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“Because most of that sex was consensual not rape. And they liked it, too.”
_ _ _
And how is it that you might state any of this so emphatically? And most especially In regards to the last part of it where you state that the enslaved women “liked [the sex], too”. This is obviously something well beyond your powers of deduction.
Can a person actually be so astute in certain instances but then so dumb in other more mundane ones?!
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Pay it Forward:
And how is it that you might state any of this so emphatically? And most especially In regards to the last part of it where you state that the enslaved women “liked [the sex], too”. This is obviously something well beyond your powers of deduction.
I asked this of Da Jokah too but the thread has been temporarily hijacked by him.
I wish I could say that he wants it to be true because he cannot stand the thought of people being mistreated but I dont think that is it either.
It probably arouses him to believe this but I suspect he will not answer the question because he cant. It is another bold face lie from this individual.
Da Jokah:
Your presence on a blog dedicated to maligning whites shows otherwise. And before anyone says I’m on this blog, too, it should be obvious that I unlike others disagree with most of what’s written here.
The reason why you came to this blog is because you could not cope at blogs aimed at white people because you dont fall within the parameters that makes you 100% white. You felt/ were excluded. You probably came to this blog hoping to find people like yourself – those who dont quite fit but instead, you probably feel you have found a ‘pro black’ blog where people have pride and dignity in who they are. You find this too much for your taste after all, if you are not happy with your ‘otherness’ to whiteness, PoC certainly should be either.
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@bulanik
[It is my gut feeling that the male slave ALSO wept when his child was sold, his baby thrown to dogs, when the women and girls and male children he knew or loved were sold, battered, flogged and raped. How could fellow slaves protect ANY women or child from all of that? They could not.]
Obviously the male slaves wept and their souls were torn to pieces, when their women and children were mistreated or taken from them, but as you write yourself what they could do? They were completely powerless.
I think there are two situations which utterly demoralize people – the first is absolute power, the second is absolute powerlessness. When you can you do anything you want and when you can do nothing at all, when you are just a leaf taken by the current. Both situations destroy the sense of responsibility. Responsibility means observing certain limits, when you can do certain things, but you restrain yourself or are restrained by other persons or institutions from other things. However, when there are no limits to observe, it creates the situtions which Russians call “bespredel”( literally “limitlessness”). This word is not really translatable to other languages.
It is not surprising that such a word emerged in Russian, since Russia was probably the most slaveholding country in entire history. In the end of the reign of the emperor Alexander I(1825), about 58% of the Russian population were slaves. The rape of slave women and selling of children and of adult slaves were as much common occurence in the eastern Europe as they were in the American South.
The slavery(krepostnichestvo) was abolished in Russia in 1861.
The issues of slavery are broadly reflected in Russian, Polish and Lithuanian historiography and literature, I have read lots about that, so you do not really need to tell me what condition or feelings of slaves were.
There is a poem in Lithuanian writen in 1820 where author deplores, in quite sentimental and tear shedding manner, the hard situation of peasant slaves in his country. I was very surprised, however, when I learned that the author was a slaveholder himself, had 40 slaves. Was his poem thus a piece of sheer hypocrisy or the product of the pangs of conscience? Who knows…
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@ gatobranco,
….I beg your pardon?
I said “I don’t see this essentially about the enslaved black man “hurrying to enjoy life”. What I had in mind was something more bleak than “enjoy”.
It’s not my belief or conceit that :1) others don’t read, or, 2) are incapable of truly conceptualising experiences that are not their own.
So, what are on earth are YOU trying to prove?
Still, since you bring it up, I might add that as a teenager I recall reading Sportsman’s Sketches, cracking and stumbling after everytime I put it down. And worse, later, learning that Turgenev’s mother beat him senseless for anything and everything… I do not care for any filmed version of Anna Karenina because the context, or background is at the time of the masters.
The first Hungarian I ever met, at school — when I asked her about what that “hungry” country’s history was — coaxed me to say this word instead of “hungry”: rabszolga: Slave. She taught us a couple of curse words, too, but I quickly forgot them. When I lived on the own names, their sire-names, let us properly call it, might be “Dirt”, “Worm” or worse, as they could be named as any low filth by their masters.
I suppose being a European myself, I was sometimes exposed to European history. Even literature… Yet, it was Ilya Repin’s painting of the burlaks — the men hauling the barge with the “bespredel” Volga and plains behind them — which made the date 1861 significant to me.
But I’ve not read as much Russian, Polish and Lithuanian as you, of course, how could I….?
Some slave histories, and slave narratives, perhaps most, don’t see much daylight:
Coolies:
Comparisons:
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@ bulanik
I do not want to prove nothing:) I am reasoning more by association of ideas than logically – one thought or impression attracts another, not necessary strictly logically following from the previous.
Concerning Hungarians, in the past the nation consisted of two quite distinct groups – hungarian aristocrats who owned thousands or tens of thousands of peasants, but who sometimes called themselves “slaves” as a retorical device since they felt that the imperial court of Vienna threatens to their traditional privileged status; and there were another hungarians, who together with slovaks, roumanians, ukrainians etc, were enslaved by hungarian aristocrats. In 1848-49 the rebellion of Hungarian nobles was badly defeated by Austrians since peasants did not want to fight for their masters.
“Sportsmans sketches”? Maybe you mean “Hunter’s diary”(Zapiski okhotnika)? I see you are very well read, it is a pleasure to discuss with you. If not secret from what European country are you and what european languages do you speak?
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@ gatobranco
The ancient copy I had was called that, if I recall.
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Like these copies: (http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Sportsmans-Sketches-Ivan-Turgenev/dp/1484102177/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398157279&sr=8-1&keywords=turgenev+sportsmans)
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O yes, it must be the same, I really do not know how Russian works translated to English or other languages are called:)
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😀
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@ gatobranco, the more you explore this blog, the more you will find.
There are many very well-read Americans on this blog — not least the blog-owner, who provides the honey for the bees.
I’ve read great commenters from Africa, South America, Australia, Asia, as well as a few more of the European/UK/irish ones like myself.
I haven’t even properly read a thread about Africans selling their own people into slavery, which had some recent and excellent entries. Here:
Do excuse me for misunderstanding you. It happens all too easily in this kind of medium.
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Da Jokah said
“That way you get to hate whites without the cognitive dissonance that comes from being part white yourself.”
………………………………………………
This is what I was saying above about shifting the shape of your ideology to further your bigoted perspective from argument to argument.
I do believe I came across a debate between yourself and Kiwi in another thread where you went on and on about how much the 1/2 Black 1/2 White offspring of a White parent does not have in common with their White parent because they’re so biologically far a part. And now your comeback is that Linda is jaded and that this makes no sense because of her European heritage, and ultimately, her “Whiteness.”
Once again, cutting and pasting an ideology to fit your argument from moment to moment, even if you’re arguing an idea from two opposite sides of it!
I disagree that Abagond’s blog is anti White. There are a few commenters who say things I don’t agree with and apply the idea that White people are an evil monolith, but the majority don’t. I find Abagond’s blog to be a great exercise in the correction of many one sided or hidden historical events as it relates to people of colour, which is never explored anywhere else, or accurately. If that offends you, I believe that highlights how very racist you actually are.
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+ you have always failed to accept or make any legitimate comebacks on both occasions that I have corrected your accusations on this thread. You’re presented with information but you refuse to open your mind, while Abagond has recently done a series celebrating great European figures. And yet we’re the ones with the problem?
Puhlease.
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I don’t see why racist trolls come on here to spew hatred and ignorance and interrupt the conversations between Black people on here. I haven’t commented on this blog as much as I used to because of trolls like the DaJokah, Riverside Rob etc. Trolls like this keep me away from this blog because I don’t want to deal with so much White energy. But I like this blog because it exposes the evils of White supremacy, the hypocrisy of about 90% of White Americans and lets Blacks and other minorities speak about their experiences with racism and how it affects their life. Plus I have learned a lot about racism from reading and commenting on this blog.
Abagond, when will you ban these racist trolls? I may not comment as much as I used to but please consider banning these racist trolls. Brothawolf banned XPraetorius from his blog. Why can’t you ban DaJokah from this blog?
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But how do we know 90% of White Americans harbour hatred towards people of colour? If we generalise like that, are we not mirroring racism?
And you shouldn’t let one or two trolls run you off the blog. Most people just skip past their posts. And at least some interesting information has come out through knowledgeable members debating with trolls which has greatly contributed to the hard cold facts and research on the blog. Like King said, debates with trolls have been like a sharpening tool. I’ve actually learned a lot just by reading members debating with racists and shooting down stereotypes with burried truths the media doesn’t report. For the most part I just ignore trolls. And if Abagond didn’t allow the freedom of speech of opposition, he’d be mirroring their behaviour by burrying the voices of the opinions that oppose his views.
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Da Jokah – banned! What have I missed?
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^in his manifestation as “Churches”
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WHAT?!
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Omnipresent said
“Da Jokah – banned! What have I missed?”
King said
“^in his manifestation as “Churches””
…………………………………………………………
(Smiles smugly for getting the last word.)
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whattt? ! Da Jokah got banned!
I was, oh SO looking forward to his asinine comments in the new post.
Who am I going to argue with and occasional curse out Now?! 🙂
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Linda:
I was, oh SO looking forward to his asinine comments in the new post.
Who am I going to argue with and occasional curse out Now?!
As commenters like Da Jokah are un-original either him or someone like him will be back – its pretty much guaranteed. Different name, same $hite…
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George Ryder
Sometime i think people rather enjoy the presence of people like Da Jokah. It seems that he generates the most responses and gets the most attention from other participants on this blog. I’m just saying….
What do you suggest – that he’s ignored and his comments left without being challenged? A lot of times his comments were ridiculous anyway. It was always amusing to see his comments dismantled.
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No George.. “enjoy” is the wrong word…
Endured is better because we had no choice since the blog owner, Abagond, kept him around because he believes in free speech and did not want to censor someone for having an opposite view.
Most times, people did ignore Da Jokah, myself included, until he started getting too demeaning or put out false information
he was a menace who like to drop a lot of “inaccurate” information and I know that for me, it would have been a disservice to let his 1/2 truths stand unchallenged all the time.
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“Omnipresent,
As commenters like Da Jokah are un-original either him or someone like him will be back – its pretty much guaranteed. Different name, same $hite…”
Linda says,
Yes, I know
and sometimes, I don’t mind because it does serve a purpose for us to have people who do have opposing views — such as Randy and a few others who are no longer with us.
but I appreciate, is when there is some sort of rationale behind their views — other than just blind “dislike” based on race/ colour or representatives trying to push their white supremacist ideology.
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“Who am I going to argue with and occasional curse out Now?!”—Maybe Guadalupe will be back. LOL
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@George Ryder
I agree, I usually just scroll past such commenters. I find that when too many people work themselves up into a frenzy over a particular troll, the thread becomes derailed because it becomes nothing but a back and forth argument comment after comment, which awards the troll with successfully crashing the purpose of the topic. The only time there’s any point in engaging is when a troll is posting misinformation which needs to be corrected for general readers of the blog. Other than that it’s a pointless exercise.
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George
I doubt it. Da jakoh is only another sock puppet of his and if he will go through so much trouble after being previously banned then I highly doubt ignoring him will lead to his disappearance.
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Is it true Da Jokah is banned finally? But he will come back as someone else. “SIGH”
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When did he get banned? Thank goodness.
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George
Most do, but considering that there are several types of trolls then I would not be quick to believe all do. In the case of da jokah/churchs/and possibly duck duck goofs it is much more than that and ignoring does not work. If ignoring worked them when he was banned the first time he would have just moved on, but he creates a new one and comes back. On top of that he knows the comment policy well so had abagond not found that old comment (thanks to kiwi) I doubt he would have been banned thus blowing out the candle of your escalating theory.
They all say things to rile people up but biff and da jokah actually try to back up most of what they say with lies/half truths. That can be deadly to ignore when the goal is to silence individuals in here to begin with. If I were a youth and I ran across this blog where da jokah stated blacks are inferior genetic and provided sources and no one challenged him then I would believe it to be true. I believe this happens more often and the only way to combat a lie is with the truth.
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Trolls are mere stepping stones to me. I bypass their commentaries and go right to my favorite commenters, who know how to shut the nonsense down-quick and in a hurry. Abagond-has created a great space for knowledge to be obtained and not same ol’ mundane Eurocentric view.
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Da Jokah is banned, but no doubt he will find a new nom de troll and return. He does not use a fixed IP address so I cannot “prove” that he was Churchs or duckduckgoofs, but they do seem like pretty much the same person.
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Duckduckgoofs: April 27th 2012 to August 1st 2012
Churchs: December 12th 2012 to March 13th 2013
Da Jokah: July 28th 2013 to April 19th 2014
So expect him back in August 2014.
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^ Ah the joys of the proxy server.
He’s a zombie troll, you kill him and he just keeps walking after you.
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I always wondered if maybe just maybe Da Jokah might have been a person of color or some self hating person of mixed race. Interesting. If that’s the case he is a sad and sick little puppy.
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“Kiwi @ Linda
Based off Da Jokah’s comments when he was under the username duckduckgoofs, he is mixed race and is very likely Lakota Sioux on his father’s side”
Linda says,
Kiwi, I remember Duckduckgoofs, and I also always believed Da Jokah was him/her….but I do remember feeling that Duck was lying about his mixed ethnicity. He told the same old story about “being the only “white” person in a black school, getting beat up and Always outperforming the black kids.
He tried to use his “Native American Indian” ethnic background as a way to say “hey, I’m a minority too, so I’m one of you” so therefore my racist views must be valid.
I’ve seen too many white racist come onto this blog using the SAME story… they are typically part Native American Indian or Latino, they are/were in the military, they are “super” intelligent and scored almost perfect on their SAT’s, they lived, worked, or are married to someone who is Asian, they are all “successful” and financially “well off”…. I’ve seen some who claim just 1, a few, or all of these narratives.
Duckduckgoofs and Da Jokah definitely said similar things but Duck’s claims about being mixed race — I still don’t believe it (and notice, Da Jokah tried not to talk about his race/ethnicity)
but they both managed to always only support the “white” side and I felt like I was placed in the devils advocate position of having to defend the “black” side… because this person (DDG/Da Jokah) did not have the ability to see both sides of any situation,
His ideas and beliefs about black people were too sharp and too negatively defined, for him to be mixed race and live the life of someone who is mixed race. He said disparaging things about Native Americans and Asians as well —
but he has Never (that I remember) said Anything disparaging or Negative about white people or Europeans.. that’s not Normal for a person who lives their life as a mixed Ethnicity, to praise 1 side and Always put down the other(s).
As a mixed race person, with ancestry from 4 continents, I have the luxury of having no real allegiance to any particle “race” but I also respect and acknowledge each of the “races’ that runs through my veins.
I’ve said positive and negative things about Europeans, Hispanics/Latinos, and my Caribbean countrymen because I have no problems talking about the good and the bad.
I can’t speak for other mixed people, but most I know (who grew up in the USA), for them, being mixed was always a love/hate struggle…they seek acceptance from all sides of their mixture. I’m sure for most, they would have a hard time always “hating” their 1 side — while COMPLETELY supporting the other side(s) –that’s what Duck Duck Goof/ Da Jokah did.
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On one thread da jokah mentioned that people usually view him as a tanned white person or something along those lines. I took that to mean he is a person of color with serious self hating issues or at least someone white enough to pass.
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@ Mary Burrell
Well, the minds and hearts of racists are generally full of unfathomable contradictions, hypocrisies, and paradoxes. You really have to see it as a sickness on some level.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/25/frazier-glenn-cross-prostitution_n_5213318.html
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This has nothing to do with race,and it is not all on the women,either. No real man goes around spreading his seed as if he was planting wheat! Hey guys,KEEP IT ZIPPED! If you can’t,at least put on a raincoat. There is more to being a man than what is between your legs.
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This post is a good refutation of the idea that illegitimacy breeds crime and dysfunction. Your chart on illegitimacy rates in Europe is especially convincing. Interesting that Iceland, one of the safest countries in the entire world, has the highest rates of out of wedlock births in Europe.
This idea seems to persist because many of the conservative bent want a non-racial reason to explain the state of Black America. It should be recognized that they do this because they are uncomfortable with the alternative explanation, which is that Black people are inherently more prone to crime due to their poor impulse control, which in itself leads to many other problems.
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The methodology here is flawed. The correct way to assess whether illegitimacy is a social problem is to look at the actual outcomes for illegitimate children, not aggregates.
As to the European numbers, there is a major flaw there, as well. The study only measures whether couples are married, not whether there is a father in the home. In countries like Iceland, couples tend not to enter into a legal marriage, but the father still lives with and cares for his children. That is very different than what we see with American families.
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STOP PAYING PEOPLE FOR HAVING BABIES. THEY ARE A REVENUE SOURCE FOR MANY FAMILIES. WHEN YOU HAVE NO DISINCENTIVE FOR DOING SOMETHING, THAT ISSUE WILL CONTINUE TO PROLIFERATE. WE ARE BANKRUPTING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITH PAYMENTS TO MULITPLE CHILDREN BY THE SAME MOTHER. PAY A FLAT RATE OF $1500, 2000 PER MONTH, MAX. YOU CAN HAVE ONE OR ONE HUNDRED CHILDREN, BUT THE PAYMENTS ARE CAPPED. WHEN THE MONEY RUNS OUT, PEOPLE CHANGE THEIR WAY OF THINKING.
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To Kiwi:
Black illegitimacy was labelled a pathology when it exceeded a certain level but when white illegitimacy exceeded that same level, nobody labelled it a pathology.
Not true, Charles Murray discussed extensively the rise in illegitimacy among whites in multiple articles and a recent book. He’s not alone.
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@ Uncle Milton
To rephrase Kiwi’s quote (I hope he will not object)
“Black illegitimacy was labelled a pathology when it exceeded a certain level but when white illegitimacy exceeded that same level, white society at large did not see their own identical trends as “pathological.”
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@Concerned Citizen:
You may be on to something. I stopped having kids when I reached my 60th kid! Welfare cut me off! Well, what do they expect from a rabbit? I’ve only had three litters!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lola_Bunny
Let them eat cake!
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King:
@ Uncle Milton
To rephrase Kiwi’s quote (I hope he will not object)
“Black illegitimacy was labelled a pathology when it exceeded a certain level but when white illegitimacy exceeded that same level, white society at large did not see their own identical trends as “pathological.”
Well, it took more than 30 years for the white non-Hispanic illegitimacy rate to reach the levels for black Americans in the early 60s but various (almost all conservative) pundits did take notice. I don’t see the word pathology but I do see words such as disaster.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/330381/INCREASE-IN-WHITE-ILLEGITIMACY-TAKES-ISSUE-OUT-OF-RACIAL-ARENA.html?pg=all
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/dec/01/20061201-084845-1917r/
http://www.aei.org/publication/white-families-are-in-trouble-too/
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/329432/latest-statistics-illegitimate-births-roger-clegg
Note.. I believe I was the first on this site to point out that illegitimate births in Scandinavia were quite high:
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anything that happens to any black person is not his fault at all. it is the race he was born into. these hard stats surely prove this
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^ Nice try at trolling but it’s not offensive enough to be worth the trouble.
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^^^^I agree.
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ultimately we all have to realize ladies an gentlemen that we as in “people of god” need to understand the plight of deeply wronged individuals of the dark skin color. When the devil race “white men of no conscience” realizes this they will kill themselves because they have contributed nothing to society at all. I am in tears for the plantation workers of this “United KKK States” The slave owners will return to the pits of hell.
can we all pray on this
amen
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Thanks Kiwi
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@Kiwi
It could also be george ryder. He was the only one that was so obsessive over me that it cost him his place on the blog.
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[…] We are blamed for the high level of illegitimacy almost exclusively disregarding the fact that white people have the highest illegitimacy rate. The stereotypical belief paints us in crude caricatures as undisciplined promiscuous dogs in heat […]
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So convenient to use absolute numbers in a country that is roughly 70% white.
Of course the total numbers are higher, similar to the basic, no thought argument that “more whites are on welfare than blacks (13% of total population, 50% of prison population).”
What a joke.
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The author here is deliberately misusing the statistics to understate the extent of the problem within the Black community. I’m surprise that there is no outrage here at the author’s deception. These kind of deception only feeds the denial and extent of the problem and the ensuing pathology that exist today in the Black community.
By using absolute number the author falsely assume that the United States is a homogenize nation. For his numbers and conclusion to have merit we have to assume that the United States has no racial enclaves. We know that this is absolutely untrue. We know that there exist in the USA White communities, Black communities and Hispanic communities. Thus each community has to be examine based on the composition of each community.
Thus Black are more likely to have illegitimate birth than any other group and the offspring produced by that birth will be raised in a Black neighborhood. Therefore the composition of Black neighborhood over the past 50 years have been altered whereby the vast majority of her children are being raised without fathers.
The author misuse of the statistics is outrageous and extremely harmful to Black and only maintain the current Cultural Marxist values that has ruined the Black community. Cultural Marxist values is growing in all communities but it has thoroughly decimated the Black community.
The author here should be ashamed for producing such disinformation that would make the Jewish-Marxist media proud.
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@Deadbeat Pennyless
Unfortunately you perpetuate the same misinformation you seem to be against. Illegitimate does not mean no father or without a father per se. The term simply refers to born to unwed parents. The idea that people (particularly the Jewish media you are against) still push it as being no father further perpetuates the problem. Father’s may not be marrying the mother, but a study found black fathers are not absent.
“The author here should be ashamed for producing such disinformation that would make the Jewish-Marxist media proud.”—Yet you don’t seem ashamed for your disinformation.
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@Mateo
A lot of things in life are a joke. Take for example your comment.
You would think with such a superior set of values that more whites would not be on welfare, and more whites would not have kids out of wedlock etc.
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@ Deadbeat Pennyless
The Black illegitimacy argument causes way more harm than actual illegitimacy. For example, illegitimate children are way better off in Sweden than in the US. In part because no one in Sweden uses the illegitimacy argument as an excuse to shred the social safety net so that the rich can get big tax cuts.
By your reasoning, Sweden should also be screwed up and pathological. And yet it is not.
I do agree that fatherlessness is a bad thing. I said that in the post. But fatherlessness and illegitimacy are not the same thing. And given that half of marriages end in divorce, the legitimacy rate is not a particularly useful number.
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So if poverty and racism aren’t to blame for the disparities between blacks and whites for rates of illegitimacy, single familihood, and homicide … what is?
Could it actually be blacks themselves?
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@ Russell
So if poverty and racism aren’t to blame for the disparities between Asians and Whites for rates of illegitimacy, single familihood, and homicide … what is?
Could it actually be Whites themselves?
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@Russell:
Maybe it was aliens!
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This is the most biased article I have ever read. Shame on the author for trying to dupe people who don’t truly understand statistics. The use of “absolute numbers” sounds good, but it is a complete misuse of statistics. Shame on you!
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Who cares?
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Stephen McIntosh
Misuse of stats is when whites try to claim fatherless homes for blacks, when all factors are not included.
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The issue isn’t birth rates of unwed mothers or even single parent homes. Th epropar measte is single mother homes.
Mothers cannot raise boys into men. I’m sorry it just can’t be done. Fatherless boys commit most of the crime. 80% of criminals were raised by single mothers.
The higher crime rate among blacks compared to whites isn’t explained by single parent homes or birthrates of unwed mothers. It’s explained by the fact that while blacks make only 13% of the population, they make up a 1/3 of the prison population because 2/3 of black boys are raised without a father. As opposed to whites who make 3/4 of the population and only half of the prison population, due to a much lower rate of fatherlessness of just 1/3 among them.
Unwed mothers do not equate to fatherless homes. This is article is racist against white people. The ending proves it. Not that the omission of fatherlessnes statistics wasn’t sufficient enough to prove it.
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@Painter Mike
A nice theory, but not one that really is holding closer to reality. No study has been done to truly support the idea. The meaning of fatherless has gotten muddied and is used to include men who are not married to the mother.
Not being married to the mother does not mean you are fatherless. Fathers most certainly can be in those kids lives, but may not be a prime influence for them either. They also could not be around enough to influence, especially if they are several miles apart.
If the truth is biased against whites then by god you guys are paranoid.
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@Painter Mike
.
That is a false statement.
Especially if you factor in the massive crimes of bankers, mortgage loan brokers, politicians and corporate executives. Most of them were raised in two parent households and they are unabashed criminals in their professional lives. Many of them are also crooked in their personal lives.
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This is so misleading. The reason the crime rates dip after 1993 is because of abortion. It was 18ish years after Roe v Wade. Many were never born. It actually supports the argument that illegitimacy is a cause of crime.
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@ factsandstephensthoughts
That is speculation. No one knows what caused the drop in the crime rate. The drop took place across the West, so it is unlikely it was caused by Roe v Wade.
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I see someone here read “Freakenomics”.
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[…] black illegitimacy rate exploded starting in the mid-1960’s until the mid-1950’s, where it evened out. One major […]
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” the birth rate among unmarried Black women has been dropping since 1992 – meaning that they are acting more responsibly, not less. ”
Because black women are simply using abortion as birth control more than ever?
http://www.lifenews.com/2016/05/11/black-lives-matter-28-of-abortions-done-on-black-babies-but-blacks-just-12-of-population/
http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/06/25/abortion-has-killed-more-black-americans-than-crime-accidents-cancer-or-aids/
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@spikefivefivefive
I don’t think they are using it as birth control because other factors come into play. Like failed birth control for one, however I would rather them abort than be stuck with a kids they do not want, can not take care of, or leave at the hands of the state. All of which create mentally unstable beings.
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I disagree, some rich white woman can adopt them!
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@ spikefivefivefive
“…meaning that they are acting more responsibly, not less.”
Black women have always acted responsibly. They care for everyone in Black neighborhoods and many people in White neighborhoods——-and they have done this responsible work for centuries.
The group that has acted most irresponsibly is White men. White male judges, police, politicians, military and business owners have made quite a mess of the nation and the world. In the areas of economics, law, politics and the environment, White men as a group, have failed miserably.
If Black women, with their values, work ethic and sense of social responsibility had a say in the running of the world, perhaps it would be a better, safer place now.
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Yes the welfare state is destroying all families, white, black and hispanic. Its an equal opportunity menace.
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